VIRGINIA:

IN THE UNITED STATES DEPARTMENT OF TRANSPORTATION 

OFFICE OF HEARINGS

IN RE: WILLIAM AMES CURTRIGHT CASE NO.FAA-2015-1319

_____________________________________________________

HEARING BEFORE

THE HONORABLE J.E. SULLIVAN

TUESDAY, SEPTEMBER 20, 2016

1:35 P.M.

HISTORIC JORDAN SPRINGS

1160 JORDAN SPRINGS ROAD

STEPHENSON, VIRGINIA 22656
In Re: William Ames vs Curtright FAA Hearing September 20, 2016 VR # 004098-1 Page 2

1 APPEARANCES

2 ON BEHALF OF THE PLAINTIFF,

3 FEDERAL AVIATION ADMINISTRATION:

4 DAVID F. SHANE, ESQUIRE

5 FEDERAL AVIATION ADMINISTRATION OFFICE OF THE CHIEF

6 COUNSEL,

7 NORTHWEST MOUNTAIN REGION ANM-7

8 1601 LIND AVENUE, SOUTHWEST

9 RENTON, WASHINGTON 98055

10 TELEPHONE: 425.227.2007

11 FACSIMILE: 425.227.1007

12 E-MAIL: DAVID.SHANE@FAA.GOV

13

14 ON BEHALF OF THE DEFENDANT,

15 WILLIAM AMES CURTRIGHT:

16 WILLIAM AMES CURTRIGHT, PRO SE

17 4135 PARADISE HILL DRIVE, SOUTHEAST

18 TURNER, OREGON97392

19 TELEPHONE: 503.209.7388

20

21

22

23

24

25
In Re: William Ames vs Curtright FAA Hearing September 20, 2016 VR # 004098-1 Page 3
In Re: William Ames vs Curtright FAA Hearing September 20, 2016 VR # 004098-1 Page 4

1 FAA HEARING IN RE: WILLIAM AMES CURTRIGHT

2 TUESDAY, SEPTEMBER 20, 2016

3 1:35 P.M.

4 THE COURT: We're on the record in the

5 matter of William A. Curtright; this is Docket Number

6 FAA-2015-1319. Today is Tuesday, September 20, 2016

7 and the parties have convened for a second litigation

8 scheduling conference. The Federal Aviation

9 Administration, which I will herein after refer to by

10 its initials, the FAA, is represented by its attorney

11 of record, Mr. David F. Shane. Also present with Mr.

12 Shane is Mr. Jeffrey Kamberg, a paralegal with that

13 office. The respondent, William Ames Curtright is

14 present and representing himself. And also present at

15 the Office of Hearings is Mr. Cody L. Smith, an

16 attorney advisor who is also appearing as an observer

17 only. Good afternoon to you all. Folks, what I think

18 I'll do is I'll just briefly identify what's happened

19 since our last conference and then we can jump into

20 some matters today. So essentially on August 10,

21 2016, an order setting a second litigation scheduling

22 conference and a deadline to exchange initial

23 disclosures and granting/denying other relief was

24 filed. This order followed and codified the August 9,

25 2016 Rule 16 litigation scheduling conference where
In Re: William Ames vs Curtright FAA Hearing September 20, 2016 VR # 004098-1 Page 5

1 the parties appeared and discussed a variety of

2 litigation matters. Thereafter, on August 23, 2016,

3 the FAA filed complainant's statement of commencement

4 of the violation at issue in the above-referenced

5 matter and on September 9, 2016, an order granting in

6 part the respondent's motion for extension of time was

7 filed after receipt of a phone call by, received from

8 the respondent on September 8, 2016 and an informal

9 exchange of information between the parties and the

10 Office of Hearing's attorney staff. So thereafter, on

11 September 9, 2016, the respondent filed initial

12 disclosures pursuant to the court's order of August

13 10, 2016. And then today, I'm sorry, last night on

14 Sept 19, 2016 at approximately 5:30 p.m., the

15 respondent also filed a motion for dismissal with

16 eleven attached exhibits. So Mr. Shane, starting with

17 you, is there any filing by the FAA that I have not

18 identified since we last convened on August 9, 2016?

19 MR. SHANE: Only Your Honor, the initial

20 disclosures that Your Honor required us to file, which

21 of course, you wouldn't know because they weren't sent

22 to you.

23 THE COURT: Right, I'm only talking about

24 material that was filed with the court.

25 MR. SHANE: No, but I raise it because mis,
In Re: William Ames vs Curtright FAA Hearing September 20, 2016 VR # 004098-1 Page 6

1 Mr. Curtright is apparently alleging that he didn't

2 get it and I, the only reason I have asked Mr. Kamberg

3 to join me is in case, you know, so we can address

4 that issue up front, but we did send the additional

5 disclosures well ahead of the court's deadline.

6 THE COURT: Okay, why don't we table that

7 for the time being and I will just address with the

8 parties

9 MR. CURTRIGHT: So the, so the, another

10 lawyer, which was not my representative.

11 THE COURT: I'm sorry; did someone just

12 speak on the phone?

13 MR. CURTRIGHT: I, I apologize, Your Honor,

14 just thinking out loud. I'm sorry.

15 THE COURT: And who is speaking, please?

16 MR. CURTRIGHT: I'm Doctor Ames, William

17 Ames Curtright. I apologize, Your Honor.

18 THE COURT: Yes, Mr. Curtright, if you would

19 hold off on your comments until I focus on you...

20 MR. CURTRIGHT: Yes.

21 THE COURT: And you want to do that in part

22 because this is being court-reported and the court

23 reporter has to know, as I must know, who is speaking;

24 and so I will note that you have things to say, I will

25 be talking to you soon, but as you may recall from our
In Re: William Ames vs Curtright FAA Hearing September 20, 2016 VR # 004098-1 Page 7

1 last conference, I always go to the plaintiff first.

2 The plaintiff always gets asked questions first and

3 then the respondent is turned to second and in doing

4 that the court is role modeling what's happening or

5 what will happen at the trial itself, because the

6 plaintiff carries the burden of proof and must go

7 first. So, I'm still talking to the FAA attorney at

8 this point and Mr. Shane, turning back to you.

9 MR. SHANE: Yes, Your Honor.

10 THE COURT: Any document that you have filed

11 with the court that the court has not identified?

12 MR. SHANE: I don't believe so, Your Honor.

13 THE COURT: Okay, thank you very much. Mr.

14 Curtright, turning to you. This question is limited.

15 Is there any document that you have filed with the

16 court since August 9, 2016 that the court has not yet

17 identified?

18 MR. CURTRIGHT: I don't think so, Your

19 Honor.

20 THE COURT: Okay, thank you very much.

21 Well, let's talk a little bit about where we left off,

22 and again, I'm going to go back to you, Mr. Shane.

23 Essentially at that time on August 9, 2016, we were

24 talking about a variety of different things and one of

25 the things that the court directed the FAA to do was
In Re: William Ames vs Curtright FAA Hearing September 20, 2016 VR # 004098-1 Page 8

1 to provide a specific date of when the violation

2 commenced. And according to my notes in reviewing

3 this material, the FAA affirmed by filing dated August

4 23, 2016 that the date of violation commencement was

5 July 18, 2014. Is that correct, Mr. Shane?

6 MR. SHANE: Yes, Your Honor.

7 THE COURT: Okay. Now we had also talked a

8 little bit about witnesses and the fine and, and

9 discovery in general. And what we had decided to do

10 as of August 9, 2016 was to take the process of the

11 case a little bit step by step. So on August 9, the

12 court directed the parties to exchange initial

13 disclosures on or before September 9, 2016 and I want

14 to chat with you a little bit about that, Mr. Shane.

15 Can you tell me when, if at all, you filed or served

16 Mr. Curtright with your initial disclosures?

17 MR. SHANE: Certainly, Your Honor. They

18 were served via, they were served I think via regular,

19 first class mail to his address of record on August

20 11, 2016.

21 THE COURT: And what is the address of

22 record that you utilized?

23 MR. SHANE: P.O.B. 1350, Jefferson, Oregon,

24 97352.

25 THE COURT: Did you provide any type of
In Re: William Ames vs Curtright FAA Hearing September 20, 2016 VR # 004098-1 Page 9

1 courtesy service by fax or email in addition to the U.

2 S. Mail service?

3 MR. SHANE: I don't believe so.

4 THE COURT: Okay. You had indicated in your

5 preliminary remarks that there may have been some

6 difficulty in receipt of those documents. I'm going

7 to reserve your comments about that until I hear from

8 Mr. Curtright.

9 MR. SHANE: I, I don't believe I said that,

10 Your Honor.

11 THE COURT: Okay. My, my apologies. You

12 had said that you had a paralegal with you to address

13 potential concerns about non-receipt. I must have

14 MR. SHANE: Because Mr. Curtright raised

15 that, he's accusing us, or claiming that he never got

16 them. I'm, in case Your Honor wants to hear it from

17 the, you know, from the horse's mouth, you know, Mr.

18 Kamberg can tell you that he personally recalls

19 placing these documents in the mail and we have the

20 document with the certificate of service to prove

21 that.

22 THE COURT: Okay. Mr. Shane I'm going to

23 kind of walk back a little bit. The court isn't

24 accusing you of anything. The court isn't accusing

25 Mr. Curtright of anything.
In Re: William Ames vs Curtright FAA Hearing September 20, 2016 VR # 004098-1 Page 10

1 MR. SHANE: No, no, no. It's Mr. Curtright

2 is saying that he never got the documents.

3 THE COURT: Right. You had told me

4 MR. SHANE: We understand the court is not

5 accusing us; I got that, Your Honor.

6 THE COURT: I'm going to interrupt you. You

7 had told me early on that there might be a concern

8 raised.

9 MR. SHANE: By Mr. Curtright.

10 THE COURT: I understand that it is not your

11 concern.

12 MR. SHANE: Correct.

13 THE COURT: I'm not asking you to address it

14 any further at this point because I want to turn to

15 Mr. Curtright and address it with him first. So, I

16 think we're done with talking about the initial

17 disclosures from the FAA's perspective unless you tell

18 me differently.

19 MR. SHANE: Thank you, Your Honor, I have

20 nothing to add.

21 THE COURT: Thank you. Okay, Mr. Curtright,

22 let's turn to you next. When did you serve the

23 initial disclosures that you offered to the FAA?

24 MR. CURTRIGHT: I believe that was on 9/9,

25 Your Honor.
In Re: William Ames vs Curtright FAA Hearing September 20, 2016 VR # 004098-1 Page 11

1 THE COURT: And how did you serve them?

2 MR. CURTRIGHT: And I believe we sent it

3 through fax and through the, through the email.

4 THE COURT: Okay. Let's talk a little bit

5 MR. CURTRIGHT: So, in certified mail, your

6 Honor.

7 THE COURT: Okay, by certified mail?

8 MR. CURTRIGHT: Yes.

9 THE COURT: Okay. You heard Mr. Shane say

10 that there, that you, he thought you might have a

11 concern about receipt of the FAA's initial

12 disclosures. Have you received those by mail at this

13 point?

14 MR. CURTRIGHT: The initial disclosure?

15 Yes, I have. I believe I have.

16 THE COURT: When did you receive those?

17 MR. CURTRIGHT: The, let me check my notes

18 here just for a moment, Your Honor. Please hold for a

19 moment. I have no envelope or anything like that that

20 shows what date it was received, Your Honor.

21 THE COURT: Okay, but it was received before

22 today?

23 MS. BIRD: On August 10th.

24 MR. CURTRIGHT: Yes, on August the 10th.

25 THE COURT: Okay, I'll note that the court
In Re: William Ames vs Curtright FAA Hearing September 20, 2016 VR # 004098-1 Page 12

1 is now hearing another voice associated with Mr.

2 Curtright. Mr. Curtright, is there someone else

3 present with you?

4 MR. CURTRIGHT: Your Honor yes, I asked my

5 secretary to get some notes for me.

6 THE COURT: Okay, you'll need to identify

7 her by name, please, so that we have a record of who

8 all was present today.

9 MR. CURTRIGHT: Susan Bird.

10 THE COURT: Can you spell the last name,

11 please?

12 MR. CURTRIGHT: B-I-R-D.

13 THE COURT: Okay. And just so you know,

14 you're welcome to consult with someone, but you need

15 to tell me that you're pausing to talk to someone

16 else.

17 MR. CURTRIGHT: Yes. I asked her to go get

18 some documents for me, Your Honor.

19 THE COURT: Okay. In the future, if you are

20 going to ask her anything, you need to tell me that

21 you need a moment to consult with your secretary so

22 that we know that you're talking to someone else.

23 MR. CURTRIGHT: All right, thank you, Your

24 Honor.

25 THE COURT: Okay, thank you. Okay, then
In Re: William Ames vs Curtright FAA Hearing September 20, 2016 VR # 004098-1 Page 13

1 let's talk a little bit about some other matters and

2 there was a filing by Mr. Curtright this morning, or

3 I'm sorry, last night, a general motion to dismiss

4 that has eleven documents attached. Mr. Shane, have

5 you received that document?

6 MR. SHANE: Yes, Your Honor.

7 THE COURT: Okay, let's talk about a couple

8 of the things that are in this document and I think we

9 could probably address most if not all of it today,

10 but I just want to check in with the FAA about that.

11 So there's an allegation here that, I'm going to go to

12 Page 3 of the motion, Paragraph 4.

13 MR. SHANE: Yes.

14 THE COURT: There's an allegation by Mr.

15 Curtright that he has not yet received the EIR, or

16 enforcement investigation report from the FAA. Mr.

17 Shane, when we last met on August 9, 2016, you had

18 offered to send that to Mr. Curtright. Has that been

19 done?

20 MR. SHANE: That's the initial disclosures,

21 it's the same thing, Your Honor.

22 THE COURT: Okay. Thank you. So that was,

23 back to Mr. Curtright and according to what he just

24 told me, he has received it. Mr. Curtright, is that

25 correct, you have now, you are now in receipt of the
In Re: William Ames vs Curtright FAA Hearing September 20, 2016 VR # 004098-1 Page 14

1 EIR?

2 MR. CURTRIGHT: No ma'am, I don't think I

3 have that document. No, ma'am.

4 THE COURT: Well, why don't, speaking with

5 you with Mr. Curtright, why don't you tell me

6 specifically what initial disclosures you received

7 from the FAA?

8 MR. CURTRIGHT: Let me, well I need to go

9 through my documents here. Can you give me a moment

10 to do that?

11 THE COURT: Surely.

12 MR. CURTRIGHT: Thanks. Okay, Your Honor,

13 to the best of my knowledge here, I have a, something

14 called a Section B Statement of Case, but it's not

15 identified as a, as an EIR or whatever it is.

16 THE COURT: And how many pages is it, Mr.

17 Curtright?

18 MR. CURTRIGHT: Still looking, so.

19 THE COURT: Okay.

20 MR. CURTRIGHT: It looks to be two pages,

21 Your Honor.

22 THE COURT: All right. In turning

23 MR. CURTRIGHT: It state

24 THE COURT: turning to you, Mr. Shane is the

25 Section B that Mr. Curtright just referenced the EIR
In Re: William Ames vs Curtright FAA Hearing September 20, 2016 VR # 004098-1 Page 15

1 that you talked about a little earlier?

2 MR. SHANE: No, Your Honor. We, what the

3 EIR is comprised of is what's, what we call the

4 Section C or the releasable portions of the EIR and

5 there should have been twelve separate documents that

6 were sent with that and then on top of that we include

7 the Section B, redacted version, which is just a

8 report that the Flight Standards Inspector writes as

9 an introduction to the case. But the actual evidence

10 is C-1 through C-12, and all of that was mailed as our

11 initial disclosures. I, I, you know, I, I appreciate

12 perhaps there is some confusion if, if Mr. Curtright

13 was expecting a, a something different between the EIR

14 and the initial disclosures. They are the same. What

15 we sent as our initial disclosures was the EIR.

16 THE COURT: Okay, thank you. So Mr. Shane,

17 staying with you. Approximately how many pages did

18 your initial disclosures comprise?

19 MR. SHANE: I don't know, I would have to

20 actually open up the documents. I will ask Mr.

21 Kamberg if he remembers. Do you remember how many

22 pages?

23 THE COURT: You're welcome to chat with him

24 for a moment quietly.

25 MR. KAMBERG: I don't remember specifically,
In Re: William Ames vs Curtright FAA Hearing September 20, 2016 VR # 004098-1 Page 16

1 I'd have to

2 MR. SHANE: Okay, neither one of us

3 remembers specifically, we could answer the question

4 if you want us, if you want me to by opening each

5 document, seeing how many pages each document was and

6 then, you know, doing the math.

7 THE COURT: How long would that take you?

8 MR. SHANE: Probably five minutes.

9 THE COURT: Why don't you go ahead and ask

10 your helper, Mr. Kamberg to do that and I'm going to

11 stay with you for a moment and ask you a couple other

12 things. Is that acceptable?

13 MR. SHANE: Sure. Mr. Kamberg is actually

14 going to leave the room and go to his workstation and

15 do that.

16 THE COURT: Okay, thank you very much.

17 Let's talk about Page, Page 3 of Mr. Curtright's

18 motion to dismiss that was filed yesterday on

19 September 19, 2016. On Page 3, Paragraph 5, Mr.

20 Curtright asserts that the FAA never gave an

21 explanation for how it had calculated the $11,000

22 proposed civil penalty. Would you agree or disagree

23 with that?

24 MR. SHANE: Well we never, I don't think we

25 provided anything in writing, so I would agree that we
In Re: William Ames vs Curtright FAA Hearing September 20, 2016 VR # 004098-1 Page 17

1 didn't provide anything in writing. I don't think

2 that we're required to. And I don't believe I was

3 ever asked.

4 THE COURT: Okay.

5 MR. SHANE: Having said all that it's, it's

6 really not a secret or rocket science. We alleged one

7 violation for failure to disclose the records. The

8 maximum penalty because of the deliberate nature of

9 the violation and the maximum penalty pursuant to our

10 guidance and Order 2153(b), Appendix B is $11,000 per

11 violation. That is the basis for, that is the

12 sanction analysis. You have now both heard it.

13 THE COURT: Well, I appreciate that very

14 concise summary of how the FAA is calculating the

15 $11,000 proposed civil penalty. Let me ask you this.

16 Is the sanction guidance that you're utilizing

17 asserting or basically stating that the only amount

18 that you can propose is the maximum?

19 MR. SHANE: No. No the, I mean, the FAA has

20 broad discretion, in fact, it's ironic Your Honor has

21 asked about this, because really I just read a very

22 well written opinion issued by the Administrator on

23 exactly what the respective duties are of the DOT

24 adjudicator and the FAA regarding adjudicating

25 sanction. But there are a lot of different factors
In Re: William Ames vs Curtright FAA Hearing September 20, 2016 VR # 004098-1 Page 18

1 that go into fixing sanction. We have a sanction

2 range for certain behaviors in our, what we call the

3 Sanction Guidance Table, I don't have it in front of

4 me. I don't know what exactly, you know, what it was

5 in this case, but usually its broken down into minimum

6 to moderate, moderate or, or moderate to maximum,

7 presumably this one fell into the moderate to maximum.

8 So it can be a complicated issue, depending on the

9 case and this particular case, I respectfully submit

10 it's really not that complicated. Mr. Kamberg has

11 just rejoined us.

12 THE COURT: Good. Well, when I'm ready to

13 hear from Mr. Kamberg, I will let you know and I will

14 basically ask him to tell you privately and then I

15 will talk to you about it. But let's stay...

16 MR. SHANE: That's fine.

17 THE COURT: Let's stay on the ques, the

18 issue of the $11,000 penalty. You've made a reference

19 to a recent decision issued by the Administrator, do

20 you have that reference for us?

21 MR. SHANE: Yes, as a matter of fact, I do.

22 I have to go find it, it was in the email that I got

23 this morning. Hang on just a moment. Calling it up

24 even as we speak. That is in Re: Schumann Aviation,

25 FAA Order 2016-2, served August 24, 2016.
In Re: William Ames vs Curtright FAA Hearing September 20, 2016 VR # 004098-1 Page 19

1 THE COURT: And this is the Docket Number

2 FAA-2013-1080 case?

3 MR. SHANE: That is correct.

4 THE COURT: Okay. The court is familiar with that

5 particular decision, as it is familiar with a variety

6 of other decisions that have been issued by the FAA

7 Administrator throughout the past many years. But Mr.

8 Curtright may not be and certainly it is always

9 helpful when the parties are in these initial

10 proceedings to talk a little bit about what supports

11 their particular position, not only

12 MR. SHANE: I

13 THE COURT: not only to educate the opposing

14 side, but also to see if that helps bring people a

15 little closer to the bargaining table.

16 MR. SHANE: Well, it's not

17 THE COURT: I'm, I'm sorry sir, I'm not

18 finished. Thank you. So when the court is asking you

19 about this, it's simply an opportunity, I think, for

20 you as well as for Mr. Curtright to exchange

21 information in a way that is helpful to each other.

22 So I'm going to thank you very much for the overview

23 that you have given us and then we will talk a little

24 bit about perhaps some additional disclosure before we

25 conclude today. Mr. Curtright
In Re: William Ames vs Curtright FAA Hearing September 20, 2016 VR # 004098-1 Page 20

1 MR. SHANE: Excuse me, Your Honor, can I add

2 something based on what you just said?

3 THE COURT: Certainly.

4 MR. SHANE: Mr. Curtright and I have engaged

5 in very lengthy discussions about the sanction. I

6 have not shared those with the court because they were

7 in the nature of settlement negotiations. But the FAA

8 has, and I don't think it's appropriate to go into

9 detail with the court, but we, I think some of it was

10 actually included in one of the early documents, but

11 we have offered to settle this case at well below the

12 sanction that we went out at. I just want to be sure

13 the court understands that.

14 THE COURT: Thank you very much for letting

15 me know that you have been in discussions with your

16 friend across the aisle, that's very helpful.

17 Anything else you would like to say before I turn to

18 Mr. Curtright?

19 MR. SHANE: No, thank you very much, Your

20 Honor.

21 THE COURT: You're welcome. Mr. Curtright,

22 let's talk a little bit with you about Page 3 of your

23 motion to dismiss, Paragraph 5, in which you indicate

24 that the FAA has never given an explanation of why

25 it's proposing an $11,000 fine and what forms the
In Re: William Ames vs Curtright FAA Hearing September 20, 2016 VR # 004098-1 Page 21

1 basis for that maximum amount. Do you see that

2 MR. CURTRIGHT: Well, they haven't. I'm

3 sorry.

4 THE COURT: You have not received any

5 information from the FAA about it?

6 MR. CURTRIGHT: No Your Honor, except we

7 received one letter that would go, an offer of $3,300

8 fine, that was it. There, there was not any extensive

9 length of discussion between Mr. Shane and myself on

10 the phone, period. He went on to some, after that, he

11 went on to some leave for like ten days, he said he

12 was going to be out of the office or something to that

13 effect, but I had never, had never heard back from him

14 after that. So that was it. There was no lengthy

15 discussion. In fact, Your Honor, the, in this whole

16 thing, in the beginning we had sent responses off to

17 the FAA which apparently didn't have permission to

18 talk to me at a certain point when we found things and

19 documents that we had that we presented to Mr. Shane

20 and they have totally ignored the fact that we had

21 presented them with the, those things, with those

22 items. I also might point out, Your Honor, that I've

23 done a little research on reference to one particular

24 finding in the matter of a company called Premier Jets

25 in Portland, Oregon, which is close to Mr. Shane.
In Re: William Ames vs Curtright FAA Hearing September 20, 2016 VR # 004098-1 Page 22

1 It's Case Number CP97NMO0005, for a fine of $281, I

2 mean, there was nothing, the, the, if I might add that

3 well, the first thing that sets me off on something

4 like a fine like this, I wonder how many other people

5 have been fined. And I immediately in my mind,

6 because what I feel about the Constitution of the

7 United States, I go to the Eighth Amendment and

8 anyway, which I pay a lot of attention to the

9 Constitution, so. The Eighth Amendment states to the

10 United States Constitution, is a part of the United

11 States Bill of Rights prohibiting the Federal

12 Government from imposing excessive bail, excessive

13 fines or cruel and unusual punishment. And the U. S.

14 Supreme Court has ruled that this amendment's cruel

15 and unusual punishment clause also applies to the

16 States, the appraise, the phrases in this amendment

17 originated in the English Bill of Rights in 1689. Mr.

18 Shane doesn't seem to have any respect for this, for

19 this, this amendment, for especially if this were an

20 offense, he just kind of ignores it and slaps you down

21 with an $11,000 fine. And the first response that any

22 pilot has to make is basically go find an attorney,

23 which is going to tilt the costs, you know, tens of

24 twenties or thousands, thirty thousand dollars in

25 attorney's fees to try to defend one's self. So the
In Re: William Ames vs Curtright FAA Hearing September 20, 2016 VR # 004098-1 Page 23

1 scales of justice are unbalanced, which is wrong in my

2 opinion or my personal view, and I think it would be

3 the view of many other pilots out there who cannot

4 defend themselves against this, thus my interest in

5 this case.

6 THE COURT: Okay, thank you very much. What

7 I'm going to do at this point since Mr. Kamberg is

8 back in the room and has potentially advised Mr.

9 Shane, is find out from Mr. Shane the number of pages

10 that were actually included in the FAA's initial

11 disclosures. Mr. Shane.

12 MR. SHANE: Mr. Kamberg is not here, but he

13 informed me that it's forty pages.

14 THE COURT: Okay, thank you. Mr. Curtright,

15 turning back to you. In the initial disclosures that

16 you received from the FAA, was the packet that you

17 received about forty pages in length?

18 MR. CURTRIGHT: No, Your Honor, but let me

19 take a few minutes and go through this and see if I'm

20 missing something in this large notebook of paperwork

21 I have. So if you would just give me a moment, like a

22 couple minutes?

23 THE COURT: Sure.

24 MR. CURTRIGHT: Okay. Your Honor, I have

25 counted twenty-two pages here roughly and the, these
In Re: William Ames vs Curtright FAA Hearing September 20, 2016 VR # 004098-1 Page 24

1 are, I believe, documents that were sent not to me to

2 begin with, they were probably through an, to an

3 attorney that we never had a, that we never hired. Mr.

4 Shane made me refer him to that. But these documents

5 are documents I got at a later date, I believe. They

6 were probably mailed to me and their initial

7 disclosures pursuant to the AALJ Order is what it says

8 on here.

9 THE COURT: Okay.

10 MR. CURTRIGHT: And for that

11 THE COURT: And I'm going to stop you Mr.

12 Curtright.

13 MR. CURTRIGHT: Yes.

14 THE COURT: Are they pages that are single

15 on one page only or are they double-sided?

16 MR. CURTRIGHT: Well, I'm just looking at

17 this, stand by. These are single pages, one-sided,

18 ma'am. And they, certain things have been omitted

19 from them, statement of case and factors affecting,

20 they are blacked out, so they're not, and I'm not sure

21 that I didn't get this most, not too, like not too

22 recently. Let's see here. I'm just

23 MR. SHANE: May I address the court, Your

24 Honor?

25 MR. CURTRIGHT: Ma'am
In Re: William Ames vs Curtright FAA Hearing September 20, 2016 VR # 004098-1 Page 25

1 THE COURT: I'm going to stop you, Mr.

2 Shane. I, I understand that you want to say

3 something. I'm still hearing from Mr. Curtright.

4 MR. SHANE: Thank you, Your Honor.

5 THE COURT: All right.

6 MR. CURTRIGHT: This is dated August 11,

7 2016, Your Honor. This, this document. So this looks

8 like something I have gotten most recently, not

9 something that was sent to me some time before, okay?

10 THE COURT: Well, that's exactly what I'm

11 asking you to look for, because material that the FAA

12 sent you was mailed on August 11, 2016.

13 MR. CURTRIGHT: That's correct.

14 THE COURT: Okay, so it sound like you got

15 something from them, and you're saying that it's only

16 twenty-two pages instead of approximately forty?

17 MR. CURTRIGHT: That's correct, twenty-two

18 pages.

19 THE COURT: Okay, Mr. Shane, you were going

20 to say something, sir?

21 MR. SHANE: Yes. I, obviously I'm not there

22 with Mr. Cartright, Curtright, I can't look over his

23 shoulder and see what he's counting, but I find it

24 hard to believe that, and he's not here in the room

25 right now, but Mr. Kamberg would omit half of the
In Re: William Ames vs Curtright FAA Hearing September 20, 2016 VR # 004098-1 Page 26

1 packet. If he says he mailed the packet, I'm sure he

2 mailed the packet. What I suggest however, Your

3 Honor, is that we not take up the court's time with

4 this matter. I'm more than happy to talk to Mr.

5 Curtright and do just a page by page comparison to be

6 sure that he got all the documents. I would also add,

7 related to his earlier comment, that he's right, when

8 I said we had settlement discussions, I was using

9 shorthand. What we had was settlement email

10 communications and the reason for that is that Mr.

11 Curtright refuses to talk to me on the phone. I have

12 called him numerous time and he's either refused to

13 re, return my calls or told me he won't talk to me.

14 THE COURT: Okay. Well, thank you for that

15 clarification. Folks, what I want to do is, I want to

16 talk about a couple other things before we conclude

17 today and I want to make sure that we get a little

18 progress made. So I'm going to skip around a little

19 bit, but if you'll bear with me, I think we can take

20 care of some, some issues today that will be helpful.

21 Mr. Curtright, I'm going to turn next to your, your

22 September 9, 2016 initial disclosures, do you have

23 those in front of you right now?

24 MR. CURTRIGHT: Let me look for it, Your

25 Honor, I'll have my secretary look for it and see.
In Re: William Ames vs Curtright FAA Hearing September 20, 2016 VR # 004098-1 Page 27

1 Can you see if there's something on that?

2 MS. BIRD: Yes.

3 MR. CURTRIGHT: And Your Honor, may I

4 comment on Mr. Shane's last comment? Not to return

5 fire, but they know what they say, friendly fire,

6 returning same.

7 THE COURT: Yes, you're welcome to make your

8 statement if you need to for your record. What would

9 you like to say?

10 MR. CURTRIGHT: Mr. Shane called me one day

11 with his assistant while I was driving and I told him

12 that basically that I cannot talk with him while I was

13 driving and that's his, his whole form of

14 communications that he has had with me.

15 THE COURT: Okay.

16 MR. CURTRIGHT: His, his statement otherwise

17 is totally absurd and totally false.

18 THE COURT: Okay. Would you be available,

19 Mr. Curtright for a conversation by phone call with

20 Mr. Shane just to talk about the disclosures and see

21 if you have a page by page accurate rendition of what

22 the FAA thinks it sent to you?

23 MR. CURTRIGHT: Yes, can you hold for a

24 moment?

25 THE COURT: Certainly.
In Re: William Ames vs Curtright FAA Hearing September 20, 2016 VR # 004098-1 Page 28

1 MR. CURTRIGHT: Hang on a second, I'm going

2 to talk for a second with, what I got paper

3 THE COURT: Hello?

4 MR. CURTRIGHT: I'm sorry, go ahead. Yes?

5 THE COURT: Yes.

6 MR. CURTRIGHT: I've got the documents right

7 now, Your Honor.

8 THE COURT: Okay. Mr. Curtright, let's go

9 back to your initial disclosures that you filed

10 September 9, 2016.

11 MR. CURTRIGHT: Okay.

12 THE COURT: I'm looking at Page 1 of that

13 two page document and at the bottom of Page 1 you, you

14 have indicated that you're making a request under the

15 Freedom of Information Act. Do you see that

16 particular request? It's the fourth line from the

17 bottom.

18 MR. CURTRIGHT: Yes.

19 THE COURT: Okay. Typically, Freedom of

20 Information requests or FOIA requests, are done

21 outside of the litigation process, so I'm looking at

22 this not as a FOIA request, but as a discovery

23 request. And one of the things that I look at in

24 terms of requests for information in the litigation

25 process is whether it is relevant to the proof or
In Re: William Ames vs Curtright FAA Hearing September 20, 2016 VR # 004098-1 Page 29

1 defense of a charge and how burdensome it might be if

2 it is relevant. So I looked at this particular

3 request and I, I thought maybe you could explain a

4 little bit about this to me because I don't know what

5 you're talking about when you say that there, there

6 are other pilots who may have ferules actions brought

7 against them. I don't know what that is. I looked

8 that, that word up and it's spelled F-E-R-U-L-E-S. In

9 the Black's Law Dictionary that I have and it doesn't

10 exist in there. Now that may mean I have an old

11 dictionary, but if so, perhaps you can tell me what

12 this means and what you were asking for.

13 MR. CURTRIGHT: I think, Your Honor, the

14 word is frivolous.

15 THE COURT: Oh, frivolous. Okay. I have

16 that in my dictionary.

17 MR. CURTRIGHT: I apologize. Anyway, typo,

18 but anyway. So human nature is inherently to be

19 (Feedback).

20 THE COURT: I'm hearing a strange noise.

21 Whoever has that, could they please shut that device

22 off?

23 MR. CURTRIGHT: It's not me at all.

24 THE COURT: Mr. Curtright, staying with you.

25 Mr. Curtright, staying with you. You are asking for a
In Re: William Ames vs Curtright FAA Hearing September 20, 2016 VR # 004098-1 Page 30

1 list of all other pilots in the United States that

2 have had frivolous actions brought against them by

3 who? Because it doesn't say.

4 MR. CURTRIGHT: Well, this is one of the

5 concerns I would have is wondering how many other

6 pilots have had similar situations. I have done a

7 little research on some of that because of a lot of it

8 is available through past records and I have noticed

9 that basically unfortunately that the FAA wins almost

10 everything at all times. And so that was, but I

11 wanted more time to, to explore other possibilities

12 of, and that's why the request for the additional

13 time, because there is so much I don't know and, and,

14 and I wanted to find out, have more time to find out

15 and find out who other, who other, what other pilots

16 have had, what other pilot's experiences have been.

17 So I hope you understand that my, my need, my need for

18 knowledge and wisdom in reference to this.

19 THE COURT: Okay. But it really would not

20 qualify, would it, as a frivolous action if in fact,

21 as you have noted in your motion to dismiss, filed on

22 September 19, 2016, that there is in fact a statute or

23 a regulation that talks about this particular

24 violation and that governs it. So you have on Page,

25 let's see, the pagination is not, I've had to paginate
In Re: William Ames vs Curtright FAA Hearing September 20, 2016 VR # 004098-1 Page 31

1 this myself. If we start on Page 4, Paragraph 8 of

2 your motion, talking about the regula, regulations

3 that you've been charged with, identifying it as a

4 legitimate regulation and then making an argument that

5 you qualify for relief essentially, from being found

6 liable for the violation because of the reasonable

7 time language within that regulatory statement. So it

8 doesn't appear to me that this particular case could

9 ever be identified as a frivolous action when you

10 yourself have identified it as a legitimate action

11 with regulatory authority behind it.

12 MR. CURTRIGHT: Well, I don't recall

13 THE COURT: Well, if that is so, you know,

14 and I'd look at your materials carefully. If that is

15 so, it doesn't appear to me that this particular

16 request for discovery that's contained on Page 1 of

17 the September 9, 2016 initial disclosures filed by the

18 respondent is really relevant to, to the issues that

19 the parties need to address here. Could you speak to

20 that at all or, or would you concede that that is

21 MR. CURTRIGHT: Well, I'm thinking, I'm

22 trying to think what you're, you're referring to. I

23 think you're probably saying that Freedom of

24 Information isn't relative, that the Freedom of

25 Information Act isn't relative in this case, but under
In Re: William Ames vs Curtright FAA Hearing September 20, 2016 VR # 004098-1 Page 32

1 the Freedom of Information Act, I, I could get

2 additional information about other pilots that have

3 had problems and that was my thinking on this

4 situation.

5 THE COURT: Yes, you certainly could. You

6 could certainly file a request, a Freedom of

7 Information request with the FAA agency asking for

8 information.

9 MR. CURTRIGHT: Well that's what I

10 THE COURT: asking for information.

11 MR. CURTRIGHT: I was going

12 THE COURT: That's not, that's not something

13 that I would deal with at all.

14 MR. CURTRIGHT: I understand that that's out

15 of your, but then it's still part of my discovery and

16 then if I were to find something interesting to

17 reference in the Freedom of Information Act, that was

18 something I would bring forth within the case. So,

19 therefore if we shut off discovery at this point, I

20 can't use that information or, or unless Your Honor is

21 going to allow other opportunities or something I

22 discover that I can put forth as evidence. Do you

23 understand what I'm saying?

24 THE COURT: I do.

25 MR. CURTRIGHT: So.
In Re: William Ames vs Curtright FAA Hearing September 20, 2016 VR # 004098-1 Page 33

1 THE COURT: I do. Thank you. What I'm

2 going to do is this, I'm going to say that the, your

3 request under the Freedom of Information Act is

4 brought to the wrong forum. I don't deal or address

5 Freedom of Information requests for the FAA, I don't

6 have any authority to do that because I'm not an

7 employee of the FAA. So if you have Freedom of

8 Information requests, broad-based like this one and

9 you want to serve them upon the FAA, you are welcome

10 to do so and I have no control over that. The

11 litigation

12 MR. CURTRIGHT: Well, I

13 THE COURT: here, the litigation here is not

14 governed or timed by your requests for information

15 under FOIA. What you want to do in this litigation is

16 make reasonable discovery requests of your friend

17 across the aisle, Mr. Shane, that have direct

18 relevance if at all possible, to the charge that

19 you're facing. And if there are disputes about your

20 request for information for discovery, then I can

21 certainly become involved and I have, I think with

22 this particular case, my involvement will be a little

23 bit more apparent. I'll be involved a little bit more

24 than I usually am in these kinds of cases, as an

25 assistant to the parties. Currently, as I look at
In Re: William Ames vs Curtright FAA Hearing September 20, 2016 VR # 004098-1 Page 34

1 this, your request to get a list of all other pilots

2 throughout the United States that have had frivolous

3 actions brought against them is irrelevant. The

4 reason it's irrelevant is because your charge appears

5 to be non-frivolous. Your charge has grounding in the

6 regulations. You have admitted to the grounding of

7 that charge by the motions that you have brought and

8 filed on September 19, 2016. You agree in this motion

9 that you have been charged with a regulation that is

10 valid, at least it's a valid regulation in the United

11 States, and that you may have a reasonable defense

12 under it. So that's not frivolity, that's a legal

13 defense and I'm certainly happy to allow you to pursue

14 that. So if other pilots somewhere else in the United

15 States have had problems that are frivolous, that

16 really is of no relevance to this particular action

17 because this action is not frivolous. Now, let's talk

18 about the second request on Page 1 of the September 9,

19 2016 initial disclosures filed by the respondent. You

20 indicate that you're asking that all documents that

21 have been redacted by Mr. Shane be produced in their

22 entirety without redaction and then you reference a

23 document number. And I'm not quite sure what that

24 document number means. Can you tell me what that

25 document number means?
In Re: William Ames vs Curtright FAA Hearing September 20, 2016 VR # 004098-1 Page 35

1 MR. CURTRIGHT: Let me look up in my notes

2 here for a moment.

3 THE COURT: Okay.

4 MR. SHANE: Can I, can I help?

5 THE COURT: I'm going to say no at this

6 point, Mr. Shane, thank you.

7 MR. SHANE: Very well.

8 MR. CURTRIGHT: I'm looking for the

9 document, Your Honor, and still there was some

10 documents

11 THE COURT: Mr. Curtright

12 MR. CURTRIGHT: there were some documents

13 blacked out, I believe, Your Honor and that's what I'm

14 probably referring to, it's all blacked out

15 THE COURT: Mr. Curtright, may, would you

16 have any objection if I asked Mr. Shane to weigh in on

17 this and explain what these documents mean?

18 MR. CURTRIGHT: Yeah, this looks like page,

19 just give me a moment here. It looks like it

20 THE COURT: Okay.

21 MR. CURTRIGHT: Page 1, 2, it's a bunch of

22 pages blacked out here, it looks like the document

23 ending in 046 and document yeah, two of them, two

24 pages here actually.

25 THE COURT: Are you looking right now at
In Re: William Ames vs Curtright FAA Hearing September 20, 2016 VR # 004098-1 Page 36

1 some materials that Mr. Shane has sent to you?

2 MR. CURTRIGHT: Yes.

3 THE COURT: Okay. Are these materials by

4 any chance attached in any way to your initial

5 disclosures dated September 9, 2016, so that I can

6 look at them as well?

7 MR. CURTRIGHT: Yes, I'm looking, so. No,

8 but I can send them to you.

9 THE COURT: Well, you don't need to send

10 them to me right now, I'm going to turn to Mr. Shane

11 and ask him if he's familiar with this document number

12 that you referenced at the bottom of Page 1 of your

13 initial disclosures. Mr. Shane?

14 MR. SHANE: Yes, Your Honor, that's our

15 file document, that's the FAA number and I'm assuming

16 the documents he's referring to is the Section B,

17 which I explained earlier is the report that's written

18 by the Flight Standards Inspector. Actually, it was

19 the practice of our office up until three years ago

20 not to disclose that document at all, but then FAA

21 Headquarters announced a policy requiring that upon

22 reasonable request, Section B's will be disclosed,

23 however, any content in the Section B that constitutes

24 pre-decisional, excuse me, deliberative pre-decisional

25 opinions be redacted. So this is standard procedure
In Re: William Ames vs Curtright FAA Hearing September 20, 2016 VR # 004098-1 Page 37

1 for my office to issue Section B's, but where the

2 Inspector gives an opinion, we redact that.

3 THE COURT: Okay, and explain to us why you

4 would redact that.

5 MR. SHANE: Yes, Your Honor. As I indicated

6 before, under both, both FOIA and discovery, I have

7 actually researched this before, but I don't have that

8 in front of me. In regards to the working of an

9 agency, not just an agency, it can be a company, any,

10 any communication between employees within an

11 organization which would constitute a single party for

12 purposes of litigation, communications between

13 individuals who are within that organization, if that

14 communication is opinioned and is not a final

15 decision, it is privileged and not subject to

16 discovery or FOIA release. FOIA release, that is

17 expressfully codified as Exemption 5.

18 THE COURT: Right, but FOIA is a different

19 issue than litigation discovery, as I am sure you are

20 aware.

21 MR. SHANE: True, but there is a great deal

22 of overlap in terms of

23 THE COURT: On, on occasion. On occasion

24 there can be overlap, but there are things that need

25 not be disclosed under FOIA that must be disclosed in
In Re: William Ames vs Curtright FAA Hearing September 20, 2016 VR # 004098-1 Page 38

1 litigation on occasion.

2 MR. SHANE: Well, it is the position of the

3 FAA..

4 THE COURT: So I'm

5 MR. SHANE: and the opinion of an Inspector,

6 because it's not final, it's not necessarily

7 THE COURT: I'm going to interrupt you. I'm

8 interrupting you, Mr. Shane. We don't need to get

9 into the weeds on this. I'm just saying to you, my

10 first question to you was what did the document number

11 reference? And you have told us that. So as I

12 understand it, based on the second question to you, is

13 why was, were some things redacted? You're telling us

14 that you're claiming privilege because it was pre15 decisional, is that correct?

16 MR. SHANE: Yes, Your Honor.

17 THE COURT: Okay, great. Thank you. Now,

18 let's talk a little bit more about the respondent's

19 motion for dismissal. Mr. Curtright, you have

20 indicated in this motion with the attached eleven

21 exhibits, that you believe that there are two issues,

22 as I understand it. One, that your time period for

23 producing documents to the FAA was not unreasonable

24 under the regulation and two, that the FAA has, has

25 not and cannot prove that the $11,000 proposed penalty
In Re: William Ames vs Curtright FAA Hearing September 20, 2016 VR # 004098-1 Page 39

1 is appropriate. Would that be a general summary that

2 correctly identifies what this motion says?

3 MR. CURTRIGHT: Yes, Your Honor.

4 THE COURT: Okay. So this type of motion is

5 typically brought as a summary judgment motion, when

6 you're attaching documents like this.

7 MR. CURTRIGHT: Yes.

8 THE COURT: But I'm also hearing from you

9 that you think you need to discover some more

10 information before the court issues final ruling on

11 this type of motion. So

12 MR. CURTRIGHT: You know what, I think I'm

13 okay, Your Honor, to proceed. But I'd like to hear

14 what you have to say on it, though.

15 THE COURT: Well I, I think at the very

16 minimum, you and Mr. Shane need to talk to each other

17 and do a page by page comparison of what you actually

18 received in their initial disclosures, so that we make

19 sure that you got everything that the FAA sent to you.

20 And I think

21 MR. CURTRIGHT: Your Honor?

22 THE COURT: Yes?

23 MR. CURTRIGHT: If I might speak. First of

24 all, Mr. Shane's statement basically is that he has a

25 certain privilege, it's not privilege is it? I mean,
In Re: William Ames vs Curtright FAA Hearing September 20, 2016 VR # 004098-1 Page 40

1 am I wrong here? Did he have the privilege of, of, of

2 holding back information? And when I've gone at, part

3 of the problem here is at the beginning when I sent

4 information to the FAA, it seems to go to the attorney

5 rather than to the FAA. I have to say that I was very

6 impressed with the FAA from Portland, Oregon that came

7 out and visited with me after I wrote, wrote a

8 complaint to them that I wasn't being treated right by

9 the legal department and the FAA seemed to want this

10 battle to go forward and wanted to fine me huge

11 amounts of money. It seems like they have too much

12 privilege, if I might add. I'd like to bring this to

13 a closure, but this is, what they're doing, it's been

14 wrong, in my opinion.

15 THE COURT: Okay. To answer to your

16 question, can a litigant decline to disclose certain

17 information regarding their preparation and trial

18 materials? The answer is yes, a litigant can hold

19 back certain preparation and trial materials in

20 preparation of their case and, and the reason that is,

21 in part, is because each side has an independent

22 obligation to do investigation and each side has the

23 right to decide how they are going to present or

24 defend on certain issues and not disclose their trial

25 strategies. So in a large organization like the FAA
In Re: William Ames vs Curtright FAA Hearing September 20, 2016 VR # 004098-1 Page 41

1 where you have a variety of different people working

2 on the same case, you can have what's called pre3 deliberation privacy so that the people who are

4 involved in a case can talk to each other, provide

5 information to each other, and opine about different

6 aspects of the case without any of that being

7 disclosed to the opposing side. There are sometimes

8 people who carry that veil of privacy a little too far

9 and sometimes there's litigation about that, but in

10 general, most people, especially folks represented by

11 counsel, are pretty good about knowing what to

12 disclose and what not to disclose, although I

13 certainly have had on rare occasions, a request to

14 look at that more closely. So to answer your

15 question, yes, in litigation, both here and everywhere

16 else in the country, there is a certain amount of

17 information that litigants can withhold from each

18 other for trial preparation purposes. Secondly, let's

19 talk again about the page by page comparison that I

20 think the parties need to have to make sure that both

21 of you have the same information. Mr. Curtright, are

22 you willing to talk with Mr. Shane, just to look at a

23 page by page comparison of what you received as

24 initial disclosures versus what the FAA sent to you as

25 initial disclosures?
In Re: William Ames vs Curtright FAA Hearing September 20, 2016 VR # 004098-1 Page 42

1 MR. CURTRIGHT: I, I suppose so. Yes.

2 THE COURT: Okay. When would you be

3 available to do that? Because the court is going to

4 set up a telephone conference for the two of you.

5 MR. CURTRIGHT: Oh boy, that's a good

6 question. I don't know. I would have to get back to

7 the court if I can.

8 THE COURT: No, you're going to be talking

9 to me right now about that. What's your availability?

10 Can you tell me?

11 MR. CURTRIGHT: Within the next ten days, I

12 would suppose, so give me

13 THE COURT: Sure, that would be great.

14 MR. CURTRIGHT: put anything together,

15 maybe, maybe exchange things back and forth via fax or

16 email, which would be fine.

17 THE COURT: Well I, well I think it would be

18 easiest if the two of you just talked to each other.

19 Is there a problem with that?

20 MR. CURTRIGHT: Ahh, I suppose that would be

21 fine.

22 THE COURT: When about, let's talk about

23 next week, which would be the week of September 26,

24 2016, throughout that week. Do you have some open

25 times available?
In Re: William Ames vs Curtright FAA Hearing September 20, 2016 VR # 004098-1 Page 43

1 MR. CURTRIGHT: A Friday is usually better

2 in the afternoon for me.

3 THE COURT: Okay, would this Friday be

4 MR. CURTRIGHT: .. something like that, two

5 o'clock would be good.

6 THE COURT: Could we include this Friday as

7 well?

8 MR. SHANE: Your Honor, I usually, Friday is

9 my RDO.

10 THE COURT: Okay, so when you say RDO, Mr.

11 Shane, what does that mean?

12 MR. SHANE: Off on Fridays, usually.

13 THE COURT: Okay.

14 MR. SHANE: Friday afternoons for other

15 reasons, Friday afternoon is, is not good for me.

16 THE COURT: Okay. Well, staying with you,

17 Mr. Shane, let's talk about next week.

18 MR. SHANE: Okay.

19 THE COURT: What, what time, if any, do you

20 not have available?

21 MR. SHANE: Let's see, I have an informal

22 conference Monday the 26th from nine to eleven. I

23 have a meeting, an office meeting fro, on the 27th

24 from nine to eleven. I think the rest of my week is

25 fairly open and my regular hours are seven-thirty to
In Re: William Ames vs Curtright FAA Hearing September 20, 2016 VR # 004098-1 Page 44

1 three-thirty.

2 THE COURT: Okay, thank you. Mr. Curtright,

3 let's talk to you then again about your availability

4 next week, the week of September 26, 2016. Are you

5 available Monday from eleven to three-thirty at any

6 time?

7 MR. CURTRIGHT: No.

8 MR. SHANE: Your Honor

9 MR. CURTRIGHT: No.

10 MR. SHANE: about Pacific Daylight Time,

11 correct?

12 THE COURT: Ye, I believe you're both on the

13 same West Coast area, are you not?

14 MR. SHANE: That's correct, Your Honor.

15 THE COURT: Okay. So we're talking about

16 your, your time zone, Pacific Time, eleven to three17 thirty. Mr. Curtright, do you have time available

18 that day?

19 MR. CURTRIGHT: Ma'am, I'm pretty well

20 booked up through the week, so it would have to be on

21 a Friday, that's my problem, so anyway, is there a

22 way, because I'm thinking

23 THE COURT: That, what are you

24 MR. CURTRIGHT: a Friday appointment?

25 THE COURT: There is no Friday appointment
In Re: William Ames vs Curtright FAA Hearing September 20, 2016 VR # 004098-1 Page 45

1 available for you. Can you open up your calendar and

2 take a look at what else you have open?

3 MR. CURTRIGHT: I'm trying to. What, stand

4 by here, if you could hold for a moment.

5 THE COURT: Surely.

6 MR. CURTRIGHT: Is Mr. Shane on some, is it

7 Mr. Shane a contracted lawyer, may I ask, Your Honor,

8 or is he actually an employee, a full time employee at

9 the...

10 THE COURT: I

11 MR. CURTRIGHT: he's off a lot. I'm just

12 trying to figure out how to work him or schedule him,

13 kind of thing.

14 THE COURT: Well, I'm not sure if that

15 question is relevant.

16 MR. CURTRIGHT: Okay.

17 THE COURT: He's the appointed counsel for

18 the FAA in this case.

19 MR. CURTRIGHT: Yeah.

20 THE COURT: And he's available Monday

21 through Thursday of next week.

22 MR. CURTRIGHT: Okay, let's shoot for a

23 Thursday afternoon, let's say, at two o'clock. How

24 about that?

25 THE COURT: Okay Mr. Shane, is Thursday,
In Re: William Ames vs Curtright FAA Hearing September 20, 2016 VR # 004098-1 Page 46

1 February, I'm sorry, September 29, 2016 at two p.m.

2 Pacific Time acceptable?

3 MR. SHANE: Yes it is, Your Honor.

4 THE COURT: Okay. Mr. Shane, I'm going to

5 ask you to schedule the matter from two to three p.m.

6 on your calendar and

7 MR. SHANE: I am doing so, Your Honor.

8 THE COURT: And Mr. Curtright, I will ask

9 you to do the same thing, sir.

10 MR. CURTRIGHT: All right.

11 THE COURT: And then I will ask Mr.

12 Curtright to call Mr. Shane, since Mr. Curtright is

13 not sure about the, the disclosures, I think that Mr.

14 Curtright, you should be contacting Mr. Shane. Mr.

15 Shane, could you give Mr. Curtright your phone number

16 that you will be available at, at two o'clock on

17 Thursday, September 29, 2016?

18 MR. SHANE: Certainly, Your Honor. 425-227-

19 2165.

20 THE COURT: Could you say that again, it was

21 a little too fast for me to even write down. MR.

22 SHANE: 425-227-2165.

23 THE COURT: Mr. Curtright, did you get that?

24 MR. CURTRIGHT: Yes, ma'am. And if I might

25 make a comment?
In Re: William Ames vs Curtright FAA Hearing September 20, 2016 VR # 004098-1 Page 47

1 THE COURT: Okay.

2 MR. CURTRIGHT: Ah, okay. In dealing with

3 Mr. Shane, okay? It's been very difficult. It's like

4 he doesn't want to resolve any issues, he wants to do,

5 use trickery and I don't like it, okay? I think it's

6 unethical. And I, and I'm just saying this because we

7 got a court case going here, but I've never

8 encountered anything like this before, and I expect

9 better out of my government. I always have a saying

10 when the government is afraid of the people, we have

11 democracy in action, when we have vice versa, we have

12 the, you know what I'm saying, we have, this is, this

13 isn't right, the way it's been going. And Mr. Shane,

14 I've sent him documents in reference to this and the

15 only good and wonderful response I got is from the FAA

16 people in Portland, the rest of everything I've sent

17 to Mr. Shane has been hidden. And I think this is,

18 this is, my communication with Mr. Shane is going to

19 be otherwise than constructive, I really don't have

20 much to say to him. But I will do my best in

21 reference to being sure we exchanged documents, and

22 everything has been pretty much like in fantasy land

23 in talking to him prior to this. Does that make

24 sense?

25 THE COURT: Thank you for your comment.
In Re: William Ames vs Curtright FAA Hearing September 20, 2016 VR # 004098-1 Page 48

1 What this phone call on September 29, 2016 at two p.m.

2 Pacific Time is supposed to be for is to simply make

3 sure that you, Mr. Curtright, have gotten all the

4 materials that Mr. Shane says that he sent to you and

5 Mr. Shane has offered to do a page by page comparison

6 with you to insure that. So

7 MR. CURTRIGHT: Are you, are you present

8 during that time, Your Honor or not?

9 THE COURT: I will not be. No, this is

10 something that you two should be able to do without

11 the court's assistance.

12 MR. CURTRIGHT: All right. Okay.

13 THE COURT: Yes. So when you

14 MR. CURTRIGHT: And now

15 THE COURT: when you look at a document, you

16 can look at a document and say, Page 1 reads at the

17 top of the document, this.

18 MR. CURTRIGHT: I understand.

19 THE COURT: Do you have a Page 1? Yes.

20 Page 2 at the top of the page says X, do you have Page

21 2? Yes. That kind of thing. It should be pretty

22 easy for both of you to do. Now at the end of that

23 page comparison, if the two of you want to talk about

24 other things, no one's precluding you from doing that,

25 you're welcome to also do that if you want. I would
In Re: William Ames vs Curtright FAA Hearing September 20, 2016 VR # 004098-1 Page 49

1 encourage it. But if you don't want to, you don't

2 have to. Any questions, Mr. Curtright?

3 MR. CURTRIGHT: No, ma'am.

4 THE COURT: Okay, and Mr. Curtright again,

5 it is your obligation to call Mr. Shane, so you want

6 to be the one initiating the phone call.

7 MR. CURTRIGHT: All right, I will do so.

8 THE COURT: Okay, thank you. Now,

9 disclosures, it appears that there may be some still

10 outstanding requests for disclosures. Mr. Shane,

11 starting with you, I know we've had initial

12 disclosures, is there some type of discovery that you

13 anticipate you still need to do for your client, and

14 if so, what might it be?

15 MR. SHANE: Well, I usually submit the

16 standard discovery request, which calls for disclosure

17 of any witnesses, expert witnesses and what physical

18 evidence the party opponent intends to introduce at

19 trial. I haven't done that yet because Your Honor's

20 order seemed to imply that, that I should hold off and

21 wait until Your Honor orders a discovery schedule.

22 THE COURT: Correct. Mr. Curtright, turning

23 to you, what kind of discovery, if any, do you think

24 you need to do still before I rule on any motions that

25 you have filed?
In Re: William Ames vs Curtright FAA Hearing September 20, 2016 VR # 004098-1 Page 50

1 MR. CURTRIGHT: (No audible response).

2 THE COURT: Mr. Curtright?

3 MR. CURTRIGHT: Right. There was expert

4 witnesses or disclosure of any sort, or interrogations

5 or stuff like that, what do you, what, I don't know

6 what we have in mind here. So. And it's blacked out,

7 you know

8 THE COURT: Yes all, all of that really is

9 what we're talking about, whether you have an interest

10 in finding out certain things from the FAA that you

11 don't already know.

12 MR. CURTRIGHT: Right. This, this seems

13 like most of this has been to harass me and basically

14 have me paying a large fine and I am, but I will know

15 a little, whatever, I just don't want to know what's,

16 what, I don't know what, Your Honor, where we're going

17 with this.

18 THE COURT: Yes I, I will tell you that as I

19 look at this particular case, it seems to be a fairly

20 straightforward case and as I have mentioned to the

21 parties before in the order that I issued on May 20,

22 2016, there appeared to be a very narrow scope of

23 dispute between the parties. I'm not sure that an

24 extensive litigation or discovery is necessary in this

25 case, although it's certainly not for me to tell the
In Re: William Ames vs Curtright FAA Hearing September 20, 2016 VR # 004098-1 Page 51

1 parties what they should be doing in that regard. It

2 appears to me, and I could be wrong, but just on the

3 surface, it appears that there is an allegation by the

4 FAA that the respondent did not produce his records in

5 a reasonable time after the FAA requested them. The

6 respondent is asserting, at least in this recent

7 motion to dismiss, that he did provide the records

8 within a reasonable period of time. If the FAA is

9 correct that the respondent did not produce the

10 records within a reasonable period of time, then the

11 issue between the parties becomes what is the

12 appropriate civil penalty to impose for such a

13 violation? The respondent has raised an interesting

14 issue about what is a reasonable period of time? What

15 does that mean? Have there been any rulings about

16 that in the past? That certainly is something that

17 could be addressed by written motions, I think, but

18 you might want to talk about that or consider that in

19 this period of time that we have before our next

20 conference. Mr. Curtright, you had asked, you know,

21 about what the scope of discovery would be, well

22 certainly the scope of discovery could include your

23 request and we had talked about this a little bit last

24 time. For the FAA to explain in writing how it

25 reached its proposed penalty. We obviously have heard
In Re: William Ames vs Curtright FAA Hearing September 20, 2016 VR # 004098-1 Page 52

1 an explanation from Mr. Shane today orally, but it's

2 also something that you can talk about in your

3 discovery exchange. So why don't I do this? I will

4 codify by a court order that you are going to have

5 this discussion on September 29, 2016 at two p.m.

6 Pacific Standard Time, initiated by phone call by Mr.

7 Curtright to do the page by page comparison of the

8 FAA's initial disclosure package to the respondent

9 that was mailed on August 11, 2016. I will also open

10 today for the parties, the general discovery exchange

11 period and I'm going to keep that open at least

12 preliminarily for a short period of time. Mr. Shane,

13 how much time do you think is, you would need for just

14 the request to be sent out, for the time to get a

15 response and then any follow up? What's your, what

16 are you looking at in terms of a general exchange? At

17 least preliminarily.

18 MR. SHANE: I could initiate the request

19 possibly this week, certainly within two weeks. I

20 would say, I can definitely initiate it this week and

21 normally we request for responses within thirty days,

22 that's standard practice.

23 THE COURT: Right, and it's, its regulatory

24 as well. So let's talk about maybe having a sixty day

25 discovery exchange period and then having the third
In Re: William Ames vs Curtright FAA Hearing September 20, 2016 VR # 004098-1 Page 53

1 follow up conference, would that work for you, Mr.

2 Shane?

3 MR. SHANE: Yes, Your Honor.

4 THE COURT: Mr. Curtright, would that work

5 for you as well?

6 MR. CURTRIGHT: Yes, I think so.

7 THE COURT: Okay.

8 MR. CURTRIGHT: Yes, ma'am.

9 THE COURT: Yes, let's talk about, in

10 looking at our calendars, today is September 20, 2016,

11 let's look at probably the very first part of December

12 2016 for a follow up phone call, just to see where we

13 are and see if there's anything else that needs to be

14 done before we start really getting into the meat of

15 the issues that are in dispute between the parties.

16 Because quite frankly, from what I can see, most of

17 the facts are not in dispute at all, it's whether or

18 not there has been compliance by the respondent in

19 terms of the reasonable time for producing the

20 records, and whether or not the FAA has a, a grounds

21 to show that the proposed $11,000 fine is appropriate

22 in this case. So Mr. Shane, starting with you,

23 looking at the week of December 5, 2016, do you have

24 any blackout times during that time for a ninety

25 minute telephone conference?
In Re: William Ames vs Curtright FAA Hearing September 20, 2016 VR # 004098-1 Page 54

1 MR. SHANE: Does Your Honor anticipate

2 ninety minutes?

3 THE COURT: I'm just, I'm looking at the

4 clock and it's been over one hour so far and I want to

5 err on the side of caution so that I have a court

6 reporter available in case we

7 MR. SHANE: Understood, Your Honor. At this

8 moment in time, I do not have any, the first week of

9 December I'm open.

10 THE COURT: Okay, Mr. Curtright?

11 MR. SHANE: The only thing, sorry, the only

12 exception, pardon me, I am busy Tuesday morning, I've

13 got two meetings scheduled on the 6th of December;

14 other than that, I'm open.

15 THE COURT: Okay, thank you, Mr. Shane. Mr.

16 Curtright, same question to you, sir.

17 MR. CURTRIGHT: We'll make it work, Your

18 Honor.

19 THE COURT: Do you have a preference, Mr.

20 Curtright for day or time during the week of December

21 5?

22 MR. CURTRIGHT: Always the Thursday or

23 preferably Friday.

24 THE COURT: Okay, well Friday's don't seem

25 to work for Mr. Shane, so let's talk about Thursday
In Re: William Ames vs Curtright FAA Hearing September 20, 2016 VR # 004098-1 Page 55

1 and let's, let's keep with our one-thirty East Coast

2 Time, which is ten-thirty West Coast Time? Is that

3 correct, Mr. Shane?

4 MR. SHANE: Yes, Your Honor.

5 THE COURT: Okay. Let's say one-thirty for

6 Thursday, December 8, 2016 and I'm just going to err

7 on the side of caution and set it from one-thirty to

8 three; we may be done long before then, but because

9 this particular conference ran over twenty minutes, I

10 think I had better make sure that everybody has the

11 time set on their calendar. With that, on behalf of

12 the FAA, Mr. Shane, is there anything else that we can

13 address for you today?

14 MR. SHANE: No, Your Honor, thank you.

15 THE COURT: Thank you. Mr. Curtright, on

16 behalf of yourself, anything we can address for you?

17 MR. CURTRIGHT: Well the, I'd like to get

18 some kind of answer on the motion, so we have, so that

19 we will

20 THE COURT: And which, which motions would

21 that be at this time?

22 MR. CURTRIGHT: I, I'm sorry?

23 THE COURT: Which motion are you talking

24 about? Are you talking about the September 19, 2016

25 motion for dismissal?
In Re: William Ames vs Curtright FAA Hearing September 20, 2016 VR # 004098-1 Page 56

1 MR. CURTRIGHT: Yes, ma'am.

2 THE COURT: Okay. I have deferred that

3 motion because as I understood it from you and your

4 friend across the aisle, Mr. Shane, you wanted to do

5 some additional discovery before I ruled on this

6 motion and so I'm reserving the motion until after we

7 convene on December 8, 2016.

8 MR. SHANE: I, I just am going on the record

9 since I, I didn't realize we were actually addressing

10 this at all. Of course, I'm opposed to the motion and

11 I would add, I believe Your Honor has already ruled.

12 I think this is a reiteration of the same motion that

13 Mr. Curtright filed earlier that Your Honor already

14 addressed.

15 MS. BIRD: not.

16 THE COURT: But thank you. There's actually

17 new materials in this particular motion for dismissal,

18 Mr. Shane, that did not exist in the prior motion

19 because Mr. Curtright has added in, in particular this

20 argument that he has in fact produced records for

21 inspection in a reasonable amount of time, as provided

22 by the regulation. I refer the parties again to Page

23 4, Paragraph 8.

24 MR. SHANE: I would be happy to address

25 that. I, I mean, I think Your Honor is doing the
In Re: William Ames vs Curtright FAA Hearing September 20, 2016 VR # 004098-1 Page 57

1 right thing, let's, let's conclude discovery and then

2 if, I would ask Your Honor do the following proce, as

3 a procedural matter, that Your Honor deny the motion

4 for now without prejudice and have Mr. Curtright file

5 a motion for summary judgement on that basis after the

6 discovery has been completed.

7 THE COURT: Your oral motion for a court

8 ruling today is respectfully denied. Your oral motion

9 for an immediate ruling before the FAA files a

10 response is denied and the court will again reserve

11 this motion until after December 8, 2016. I think in

12 fact, that this motion could be converted as it is

13 with some supplementation as a summary judgement

14 motion and rather than force Mr. Curtright to refile a

15 lot of this material in a separate package, I think

16 it's most efficacious to simply keep it alive and

17 reserved until after the parties have conducted the

18 discovery that is needed. But I think

19 MR. SHANE: That's pretty close to what I

20 was suggesting, Your Honor. I think

21 THE COURT: All right.

22 MR. SHANE: .. I think we're on the same

23 page.

24 THE COURT: Excellent. Mr. Curtright, any

25 further questions that you have about this proceeding
In Re: William Ames vs Curtright FAA Hearing September 20, 2016 VR # 004098-1 Page 58

1 before we close today?

2 MR. CURTRIGHT: No, ma'am.

3 THE COURT: Okay. Then I, I will wish you

4 both the very best as you have your private

5 conversation next week on September 29, 2016 at two

6 p.m. Pacific Time. I look forward to talking with you

7 again in December 2016. It appears our business today

8 is complete.

9 MR. SHANE: I apologize, Your Honor, I just

10 have a quick follow up question that just kind of

11 popped into my head. Does Your Honor want any kind

12 of, some kind of communication back from the parties

13 regarding next week's meeting or is Your Honor just

14 going to leave it up to either party to raise a motion

15 or objections if that party is not satisfied?

16 THE COURT: Well

17 MR. SHANE: How does Your Honor want the

18 follow up to work, I guess, is my question.

19 THE COURT: Let's talk about that for just a

20 moment. Mr. Shane, since you have raised this, do you

21 have a preference?

22 MR. SHANE: Yes, my preference would be is

23 to leave it up to a party to either file an objection

24 or, or I guess that would be Mr. Curtright, I mean, if

25 Mr. Curtright doesn't call and, you know, doesn't
In Re: William Ames vs Curtright FAA Hearing September 20, 2016 VR # 004098-1 Page 59

1 appear at the time that Your Honor ordered, I doubt

2 that I would do anything. But I didn't know whether

3 Your Honor was expecting some kind of, you know,

4 report from the parties saying we met and we resolved

5 or we met and we didn't resolve or I just wanted to

6 know what Your Honor had in mind.

7 THE COURT: Okay. Mr. Curtright, do you

8 have any thoughts about that?

9 MR. CURTRIGHT: Not at this time, Your

10 Honor.

11 THE COURT: Okay. This is what I would

12 suggest. I'm going to presume that everything went

13 well unless someone's unhappy. I think that this

14 particular phone call should occur and the court is

15 directing the parties to be available and to

16 participate in it. This is for Mr. Curtright's

17 benefit in particular, so if for any reason Mr.

18 Curtright, you are not satisfied with this particular

19 phone call, then you should bring it to the attention

20 of the court and you do that

21 MR. CURTRIGHT: Yes, Your Honor.

22 THE COURT: with a motion. If you are

23 satisfied, I presume that everything went well and you

24 don't have to do anything.

25 MR. SHANE: Thank you, Your Honor.
In Re: William Ames vs Curtright FAA Hearing September 20, 2016 VR # 004098-1 Page 60

1 THE COURT: And does that answer your

2 question, Mr. Shane?

3 MR. SHANE: Fully. Thank you, Your Honor.

4 THE COURT: Okay, and Mr. Curtright, does

5 that work for you?

6 MR. CURTRIGHT: Yes ma'am, yes Your Honor.

7 THE COURT: Okay, excellent. So with that,

8 it appears that our business is complete. As I

9 mentioned earlier, I will be sending out an order

10 codifying what we have discussed and decided today.

11 We can go off the record and I wish you all a good

12 day. Thank you very much.

13 MR. SHANE: Thank you, your Honor.

14 THE COURT: Bye bye.

15 MR. CURTRIGHT: Have a good one, thank you.

16 (WHEREUPON, the litigation scheduling conference was

17 concluded at 2:56 p.m.)

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22

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In Re: William Ames vs Curtright FAA Hearing September 20, 2016 VR # 004098-1 Page 61

1 STIPULATION

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CERTIFICATE OF REPORTER AND SECURE ENCRYPTED

 I, Steven J. Killings, Notary Public, do hereby

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SEPTEMBER 2016
In Re: William Ames vs Curtright FAA Hearing September 20, 2016 VR # 004098-1 Page 63

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In Re: William Ames vs Curtright FAA Hearing September 20, 2016 VR # 004098-1 Page 64

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In Re: William Ames vs Curtright FAA Hearing September 20, 2016 VR # 004098-1 Page 65

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In Re: William Ames vs Curtright FAA Hearing September 20, 2016 VR # 004098-1 Page 66

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In Re: William Ames vs Curtright FAA Hearing September 20, 2016 VR # 004098-1 Page 67

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In Re: William Ames vs Curtright FAA Hearing September 20, 2016 VR # 004098-1 Page 68

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In Re: William Ames vs Curtright FAA Hearing September 20, 2016 VR # 004098-1 Page 69

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In Re: William Ames vs Curtright FAA Hearing September 20, 2016 VR # 004098-1 Page 71

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In Re: William Ames vs Curtright FAA Hearing September 20, 2016 VR # 004098-1 Page 72

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In Re: William Ames vs Curtright FAA Hearing September 20, 2016 VR # 004098-1 Page 73

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twenty 54:9

twenty-two

22:25 24:16

24:17

type 7:25

38:4 38:11

48:12

typically

27:19 38:5

typo 28:17

U

unbalanced

22:1

understand

9:4 9:10

24:2 29:17

31:14 31:23

37:12 37:22

47:18

understands

19:13

understood

53:7 55:3

unethical

46:6

unfortunately

29:9

unhappy 58:13

United 21:7

21:10 21:10

29:1 33:2

33:10 33:14

unless 9:17

31:20 58:13

unreasonable

37:23

unusual 21:13

21:15

upon 32:9

35:21

usually 17:5

32:24 42:1

42:8 42:12

48:15

utilized 7:22

utilizing

16:16

V

valid 33:10

33:10

variety 4:1

6:24 18:5

40:1

veil 40:8

versa 46:11

version 14:7

versus 40:24

via 7:18 7:18

41:15

vice 46:11

view 22:2

22:3

violation 4:4

7:1 7:4

16:7 16:9

16:11 29:24

30:6 50:13

visited 39:7

voice 11:1

W

wait 48:21

walk 8:23

wasn't 39:8

weeds 37:9

week 41:23

41:23 41:24

42:17 42:24

43:4 43:4

43:20 44:21

51:19 51:20

52:23 53:8

53:20 57:5

weeks 51:19

week's 57:13

weigh 34:16

welcome 11:14

14:23 19:21

26:7 32:9

47:25

We'll 53:17

we're 3:4

9:16 16:2

43:15 49:9

49:16 56:22

West 43:13

54:2

we've 48:11

whatever

13:15 49:15
In Re: William Ames vs Curtright FAA Hearing September 20, 2016 VR # 004098-1 Page 83

WHEREUPON

59:16

whether 27:25

49:9 52:17

52:20 58:2

Whoever 28:21

whole 20:15

26:13

William 3:1

3:5 3:13

5:16

willing 40:22

wins 29:9

wisdom 29:18

wish 57:3

59:11

withhold

40:17

witnesses 7:8

48:17 48:17

49:4

wonder 21:4

wonderful

46:15

wondering

29:5

work 44:12

52:1 52:4

53:17 53:25

57:18 59:5

working 36:8

40:1

workstation

15:14

write 45:21

writes 14:8

writing 15:25

16:1 50:24

written 16:22

35:17 50:17

wrong 22:1

32:4 39:1

39:14 50:2

wrote 39:7

39:7

Y

Ye 43:12

yesterday

15:18

yet 6:16

12:15 48:19

you'll 11:6

25:19

yourself

30:10 54:16

you've 17:18

30:3

Z

zone 43:16