VIRG INIA:

**IN THE** UNITED STATES DEPARTMENT OF TRANSPORTATION

OFFICE OF HEARINGS

INRE: WILLIAM AMES CURTRIGHT CASE NO.FAA-2015-1319

____ _________________________________________________

HEARING BEFORE THE HONORABLE J.E. SULLIVAN TUE SDAY, SEPTEMBER 20, 2016 1:3 5 P.M. HIS TORIC JORDAN SPRINGS 116 0 JORDAN SPRINGS ROAD STE PHENSON, VIRGINIA 22656In Re: William Ames vs Curtright FAA Hearing September 20, 2016 VR # 004098-1 Page 2

1 APPEARANCES 2 ON BEHALF OF THE PLAINTIFF, 3 FEDERAL AVIATION ADMINISTRATION: 4 DAVID F. SHANE, ESQUIRE 5 FEDERAL AVIATION ADMINISTRATION OFFICE OF THE CHIEF 6 COUNSEL, 7 NORTHWEST MOUNTAIN REGION ANM-7 8 1601 LIND AVENUE, SOUTHWEST 9 RENTON, WASHINGTON 98055 10 TELEPHONE: 425.227.2007 11 FACSIMILE: 425.227.1007 12 E-MAIL: DAVID.SHANE@FAA.GOV 13 14 ON BEHALF OF THE DEFENDANT, 15 WILLIAM AMES CURTRIGHT: 16 WILLIAM AMES CURTRIGHT, PRO SE 17 4135 PARADISE HILL DRIVE, SOUTHEAST 18 TURNER, OREGON97392 19 TELEPHONE: 503.209.7388 20 21 22 23 24 25In Re: William Ames vs Curtright FAA Hearing September 20, 2016 VR # 004098-1 Page 3In Re: William Ames vs Curtright FAA Hearing September 20, 2016 VR # 004098-1 Page 4

1 FAA HEARING IN RE: WILLIAM AMES CURTRIGHT 2 TUESDAY, SEPTEMBER 20, 2016 3 1:35 P.M. 4 THE COURT: We're on the record in the 5 matter of William A. Curtright; this is Docket Number 6 FAA-2015-1319. Today is Tuesday, September 20, 2016 7 and the parties have convened for a second litigation 8 scheduling conference. The Federal Aviation 9 Administration, which I will herein after refer to by 10 its initials, the FAA, is represented by its attorney 11 of record, Mr. David F. Shane. Also present with Mr. 12 Shane is Mr. Jeffrey Kamberg, a paralegal with that 13 office. The respondent, William Ames Curtright is 14 present and representing himself. And also present at 15 the Office of Hearings is Mr. Cody L. Smith, an 16 attorney advisor who is also appearing as an observer 17 only. Good afternoon to you all. Folks, what I think 18 I'll do is I'll just briefly identify what's happened 19 since our last conference and then we can jump into 20 some matters today. So essentially on August 10, 21 2016, an order setting a second litigation scheduling 22 conference and a deadline to exchange initial 23 disclosures and granting/denying other relief was 24 filed. This order followed and codified the August 9, 25 2016 Rule 16 litigation scheduling conference whereIn Re: William Ames vs Curtright FAA Hearing September 20, 2016 VR # 004098-1 Page 5

1 the parties appeared and discussed a variety of 2 litigation matters. Thereafter, on August 23, 2016, 3 the FAA filed complainant's statement of commencement 4 of the violation at issue in the above-referenced 5 matter and on September 9, 2016, an order granting in 6 part the respondent's motion for extension of time was 7 filed after receipt of a phone call by, received from 8 the respondent on September 8, 2016 and an informal 9 exchange of information between the parties and the 10 Office of Hearing's attorney staff. So thereafter, on 11 September 9, 2016, the respondent filed initial 12 disclosures pursuant to the court's order of August 13 10, 2016. And then today, I'm sorry, last night on 14 Sept 19, 2016 at approximately 5:30 p.m., the 15 respondent also filed a motion for dismissal with 16 eleven attached exhibits. So Mr. Shane, starting with 17 you, is there any filing by the FAA that I have not 18 identified since we last convened on August 9, 2016? 19 MR. SHANE: Only Your Honor, the initial 20 disclosures that Your Honor required us to file, which 21 of course, you wouldn't know because they weren't sent 22 to you. 23 THE COURT: Right, I'm only talking about 24 material that was filed with the court. 25 MR. SHANE: No, but I raise it because mis,In Re: William Ames vs Curtright FAA Hearing September 20, 2016 VR # 004098-1 Page 6

1 Mr. Curtright is apparently alleging that he didn't 2 get it and I, the only reason I have asked Mr. Kamberg 3 to join me is in case, you know, so we can address 4 that issue up front, but we did send the additional 5 disclosures well ahead of the court's deadline. 6 THE COURT: Okay, why don't we table that 7 for the time being and I will just address with the 8 parties 9 MR. CURTRIGHT: So the, so the, another 10 lawyer, which was not my representative. 11 THE COURT: I'm sorry; did someone just 12 speak on the phone? 13 MR. CURTRIGHT: I, I apologize, Your Honor, 14 just thinking out loud. I'm sorry. 15 THE COURT: And who is speaking, please? 16 MR. CURTRIGHT: I'm Doctor Ames, William 17 Ames Curtright. I apologize, Your Honor. 18 THE COURT: Yes, Mr. Curtright, if you would 19 hold off on your comments until I focus on you... 20 MR. CURTRIGHT: Yes. 21 THE COURT: And you want to do that in part 22 because this is being court-reported and the court 23 reporter has to know, as I must know, who is speaking; 24 and so I will note that you have things to say, I will 25 be talking to you soon, but as you may recall from ourIn Re: William Ames vs Curtright FAA Hearing September 20, 2016 VR # 004098-1 Page 7

1 last conference, I always go to the plaintiff first. 2 The plaintiff always gets asked questions first and 3 then the respondent is turned to second and in doing 4 that the court is role modeling what's happening or 5 what will happen at the trial itself, because the 6 plaintiff carries the burden of proof and must go 7 first. So, I'm still talking to the FAA attorney at 8 this point and Mr. Shane, turning back to you. 9 MR. SHANE: Yes, Your Honor. 10 THE COURT: Any document that you have filed 11 with the court that the court has not identified? 12 MR. SHANE: I don't believe so, Your Honor. 13 THE COURT: Okay, thank you very much. Mr. 14 Curtright, turning to you. This question is limited. 15 Is there any document that you have filed with the 16 court since August 9, 2016 that the court has not yet 17 identified? 18 MR. CURTRIGHT: I don't think so, Your 19 Honor. 20 THE COURT: Okay, thank you very much. 21 Well, let's talk a little bit about where we left off, 22 and again, I'm going to go back to you, Mr. Shane. 23 Essentially at that time on August 9, 2016, we were 24 talking about a variety of different things and one of 25 the things that the court directed the FAA to do wasIn Re: William Ames vs Curtright FAA Hearing September 20, 2016 VR # 004098-1 Page 8

1 to provide a specific date of when the violation 2 commenced. And according to my notes in reviewing 3 this material, the FAA affirmed by filing dated August 4 23, 2016 that the date of violation commencement was 5 July 18, 2014. Is that correct, Mr. Shane? 6 MR. SHANE: Yes, Your Honor. 7 THE COURT: Okay. Now we had also talked a 8 little bit about witnesses and the fine and, and 9 discovery in general. And what we had decided to do 10 as of August 9, 2016 was to take the process of the 11 case a little bit step by step. So on August 9, the 12 court directed the parties to exchange initial 13 disclosures on or before September 9, 2016 and I want 14 to chat with you a little bit about that, Mr. Shane. 15 Can you tell me when, if at all, you filed or served 16 Mr. Curtright with your initial disclosures? 17 MR. SHANE: Certainly, Your Honor. They 18 were served via, they were served I think via regular, 19 first class mail to his address of record on August 20 11, 2016. 21 THE COURT: And what is the address of 22 record that you utilized? 23 MR. SHANE: P.O.B. 1350, Jefferson, Oregon, 24 97352. 25 THE COURT: Did you provide any type ofIn Re: William Ames vs Curtright FAA Hearing September 20, 2016 VR # 004098-1 Page 9

1 courtesy service by fax or email in addition to the U. 2 S. Mail service? 3 MR. SHANE: I don't believe so. 4 THE COURT: Okay. You had indicated in your 5 preliminary remarks that there may have been some 6 difficulty in receipt of those documents. I'm going 7 to reserve your comments about that until I hear from 8 Mr. Curtright. 9 MR. SHANE: I, I don't believe I said that, 10 Your Honor. 11 THE COURT: Okay. My, my apologies. You 12 had said that you had a paralegal with you to address 13 potential concerns about non-receipt. I must have 14 MR. SHANE: Because Mr. Curtright raised 15 that, he's accusing us, or claiming that he never got 16 them. I'm, in case Your Honor wants to hear it from 17 the, you know, from the horse's mouth, you know, Mr. 18 Kamberg can tell you that he personally recalls 19 placing these documents in the mail and we have the 20 document with the certificate of service to prove 21 that. 22 THE COURT: Okay. Mr. Shane I'm going to 23 kind of walk back a little bit. The court isn't 24 accusing you of anything. The court isn't accusing 25 Mr. Curtright of anything.In Re: William Ames vs Curtright FAA Hearing September 20, 2016 VR # 004098-1 Page 10

1 MR. SHANE: No, no, no. It's Mr. Curtright 2 is saying that he never got the documents. 3 THE COURT: Right. You had told me 4 MR. SHANE: We understand the court is not 5 accusing us; I got that, Your Honor. 6 THE COURT: I'm going to interrupt you. You 7 had told me early on that there might be a concern 8 raised. 9 MR. SHANE: By Mr. Curtright. 10 THE COURT: I understand that it is not your 11 concern. 12 MR. SHANE: Correct. 13 THE COURT: I'm not asking you to address it 14 any further at this point because I want to turn to 15 Mr. Curtright and address it with him first. So, I 16 think we're done with talking about the initial 17 disclosures from the FAA's perspective unless you tell 18 me differently. 19 MR. SHANE: Thank you, Your Honor, I have 20 nothing to add. 21 THE COURT: Thank you. Okay, Mr. Curtright, 22 let's turn to you next. When did you serve the 23 initial disclosures that you offered to the FAA? 24 MR. CURTRIGHT: I believe that was on 9/9, 25 Your Honor.In Re: William Ames vs Curtright FAA Hearing September 20, 2016 VR # 004098-1 Page 11

1 THE COURT: And how did you serve them? 2 MR. CURTRIGHT: And I believe we sent it 3 through fax and through the, through the email. 4 THE COURT: Okay. Let's talk a little bit 5 MR. CURTRIGHT: So, in certified mail, your 6 Honor. 7 THE COURT: Okay, by certified mail? 8 MR. CURTRIGHT: Yes. 9 THE COURT: Okay. You heard Mr. Shane say 10 that there, that you, he thought you might have a 11 concern about receipt of the FAA's initial 12 disclosures. Have you received those by mail at this 13 point? 14 MR. CURTRIGHT: The initial disclosure? 15 Yes, I have. I believe I have. 16 THE COURT: When did you receive those? 17 MR. CURTRIGHT: The, let me check my notes 18 here just for a moment, Your Honor. Please hold for a 19 moment. I have no envelope or anything like that that 20 shows what date it was received, Your Honor. 21 THE COURT: Okay, but it was received before 22 today? 23 MS. BIRD: On August 10th. 24 MR. CURTRIGHT: Yes, on August the 10th. 25 THE COURT: Okay, I'll note that the courtIn Re: William Ames vs Curtright FAA Hearing September 20, 2016 VR # 004098-1 Page 12

1 is now hearing another voice associated with Mr. 2 Curtright. Mr. Curtright, is there someone else 3 present with you? 4 MR. CURTRIGHT: Your Honor yes, I asked my 5 secretary to get some notes for me. 6 THE COURT: Okay, you'll need to identify 7 her by name, please, so that we have a record of who 8 all was present today. 9 MR. CURTRIGHT: Susan Bird. 10 THE COURT: Can you spell the last name, 11 please? 12 MR. CURTRIGHT: B-I-R-D. 13 THE COURT: Okay. And just so you know, 14 you're welcome to consult with someone, but you need 15 to tell me that you're pausing to talk to someone 16 else. 17 MR. CURTRIGHT: Yes. I asked her to go get 18 some documents for me, Your Honor. 19 THE COURT: Okay. In the future, if you are 20 going to ask her anything, you need to tell me that 21 you need a moment to consult with your secretary so 22 that we know that you're talking to someone else. 23 MR. CURTRIGHT: All right, thank you, Your 24 Honor. 25 THE COURT: Okay, thank you. Okay, thenIn Re: William Ames vs Curtright FAA Hearing September 20, 2016 VR # 004098-1 Page 13

1 let's talk a little bit about some other matters and 2 there was a filing by Mr. Curtright this morning, or 3 I'm sorry, last night, a general motion to dismiss 4 that has eleven documents attached. Mr. Shane, have 5 you received that document? 6 MR. SHANE: Yes, Your Honor. 7 THE COURT: Okay, let's talk about a couple 8 of the things that are in this document and I think we 9 could probably address most if not all of it today, 10 but I just want to check in with the FAA about that. 11 So there's an allegation here that, I'm going to go to 12 Page 3 of the motion, Paragraph 4. 13 MR. SHANE: Yes. 14 THE COURT: There's an allegation by Mr. 15 Curtright that he has not yet received the EIR, or 16 enforcement investigation report from the FAA. Mr. 17 Shane, when we last met on August 9, 2016, you had 18 offered to send that to Mr. Curtright. Has that been 19 done? 20 MR. SHANE: That's the initial disclosures, 21 it's the same thing, Your Honor. 22 THE COURT: Okay. Thank you. So that was, 23 back to Mr. Curtright and according to what he just 24 told me, he has received it. Mr. Curtright, is that 25 correct, you have now, you are now in receipt of theIn Re: William Ames vs Curtright FAA Hearing September 20, 2016 VR # 004098-1 Page 14

1 EIR? 2 MR. CURTRIGHT: No ma'am, I don't think I 3 have that document. No, ma'am. 4 THE COURT: Well, why don't, speaking with 5 you with Mr. Curtright, why don't you tell me 6 specifically what initial disclosures you received 7 from the FAA? 8 MR. CURTRIGHT: Let me, well I need to go 9 through my documents here. Can you give me a moment 10 to do that? 11 THE COURT: Surely. 12 MR. CURTRIGHT: Thanks. Okay, Your Honor, 13 to the best of my knowledge here, I have a, something 14 called a Section B Statement of Case, but it's not 15 identified as a, as an EIR or whatever it is. 16 THE COURT: And how many pages is it, Mr. 17 Curtright? 18 MR. CURTRIGHT: Still looking, so. 19 THE COURT: Okay. 20 MR. CURTRIGHT: It looks to be two pages, 21 Your Honor. 22 THE COURT: All right. In turning 23 MR. CURTRIGHT: It state 24 THE COURT: turning to you, Mr. Shane is the 25 Section B that Mr. Curtright just referenced the EIRIn Re: William Ames vs Curtright FAA Hearing September 20, 2016 VR # 004098-1 Page 15

1 that you talked about a little earlier? 2 MR. SHANE: No, Your Honor. We, what the 3 EIR is comprised of is what's, what we call the 4 Section C or the releasable portions of the EIR and 5 there should have been twelve separate documents that 6 were sent with that and then on top of that we include 7 the Section B, redacted version, which is just a 8 report that the Flight Standards Inspector writes as 9 an introduction to the case. But the actual evidence 10 is C-1 through C-12, and all of that was mailed as our 11 initial disclosures. I, I, you know, I, I appreciate 12 perhaps there is some confusion if, if Mr. Curtright 13 was expecting a, a something different between the EIR 14 and the initial disclosures. They are the same. What 15 we sent as our initial disclosures was the EIR. 16 THE COURT: Okay, thank you. So Mr. Shane, 17 staying with you. Approximately how many pages did 18 your initial disclosures comprise? 19 MR. SHANE: I don't know, I would have to 20 actually open up the documents. I will ask Mr. 21 Kamberg if he remembers. Do you remember how many 22 pages? 23 THE COURT: You're welcome to chat with him 24 for a moment quietly. 25 MR. KAMBERG: I don't remember specifically,In Re: William Ames vs Curtright FAA Hearing September 20, 2016 VR # 004098-1 Page 16

1 I'd have to 2 MR. SHANE: Okay, neither one of us 3 remembers specifically, we could answer the question 4 if you want us, if you want me to by opening each 5 document, seeing how many pages each document was and 6 then, you know, doing the math. 7 THE COURT: How long would that take you? 8 MR. SHANE: Probably five minutes. 9 THE COURT: Why don't you go ahead and ask 10 your helper, Mr. Kamberg to do that and I'm going to 11 stay with you for a moment and ask you a couple other 12 things. Is that acceptable? 13 MR. SHANE: Sure. Mr. Kamberg is actually 14 going to leave the room and go to his workstation and 15 do that. 16 THE COURT: Okay, thank you very much. 17 Let's talk about Page, Page 3 of Mr. Curtright's 18 motion to dismiss that was filed yesterday on 19 September 19, 2016. On Page 3, Paragraph 5, Mr. 20 Curtright asserts that the FAA never gave an 21 explanation for how it had calculated the $11,000 22 proposed civil penalty. Would you agree or disagree 23 with that? 24 MR. SHANE: Well we never, I don't think we 25 provided anything in writing, so I would agree that weIn Re: William Ames vs Curtright FAA Hearing September 20, 2016 VR # 004098-1 Page 17

1 didn't provide anything in writing. I don't think 2 that we're required to. And I don't believe I was 3 ever asked. 4 THE COURT: Okay. 5 MR. SHANE: Having said all that it's, it's 6 really not a secret or rocket science. We alleged one 7 violation for failure to disclose the records. The 8 maximum penalty because of the deliberate nature of 9 the violation and the maximum penalty pursuant to our 10 guidance and Order 2153(b), Appendix B is $11,000 per 11 violation. That is the basis for, that is the 12 sanction analysis. You have now both heard it. 13 THE COURT: Well, I appreciate that very 14 concise summary of how the FAA is calculating the 15 $11,000 proposed civil penalty. Let me ask you this. 16 Is the sanction guidance that you're utilizing 17 asserting or basically stating that the only amount 18 that you can propose is the maximum? 19 MR. SHANE: No. No the, I mean, the FAA has 20 broad discretion, in fact, it's ironic Your Honor has 21 asked about this, because really I just read a very 22 well written opinion issued by the Administrator on 23 exactly what the respective duties are of the DOT 24 adjudicator and the FAA regarding adjudicating 25 sanction. But there are a lot of different factorsIn Re: William Ames vs Curtright FAA Hearing September 20, 2016 VR # 004098-1 Page 18

1 that go into fixing sanction. We have a sanction 2 range for certain behaviors in our, what we call the 3 Sanction Guidance Table, I don't have it in front of 4 me. I don't know what exactly, you know, what it was 5 in this case, but usually its broken down into minimum 6 to moderate, moderate or, or moderate to maximum, 7 presumably this one fell into the moderate to maximum. 8 So it can be a complicated issue, depending on the 9 case and this particular case, I respectfully submit 10 it's really not that complicated. Mr. Kamberg has 11 just rejoined us. 12 THE COURT: Good. Well, when I'm ready to 13 hear from Mr. Kamberg, I will let you know and I will 14 basically ask him to tell you privately and then I 15 will talk to you about it. But let's stay... 16 MR. SHANE: That's fine. 17 THE COURT: Let's stay on the ques, the 18 issue of the $11,000 penalty. You've made a reference 19 to a recent decision issued by the Administrator, do 20 you have that reference for us? 21 MR. SHANE: Yes, as a matter of fact, I do. 22 I have to go find it, it was in the email that I got 23 this morning. Hang on just a moment. Calling it up 24 even as we speak. That is in Re: Schumann Aviation, 25 FAA Order 2016-2, served August 24, 2016.In Re: William Ames vs Curtright FAA Hearing September 20, 2016 VR # 004098-1 Page 19

1 THE COURT: And this is the Docket Number 2 FAA-2013-1080 case? 3 MR. SHANE: That is correct. 4 THE COURT: Okay. The court is familiar with that 5 particular decision, as it is familiar with a variety 6 of other decisions that have been issued by the FAA 7 Administrator throughout the past many years. But Mr. 8 Curtright may not be and certainly it is always 9 helpful when the parties are in these initial 10 proceedings to talk a little bit about what supports 11 their particular position, not only 12 MR. SHANE: I 13 THE COURT: not only to educate the opposing 14 side, but also to see if that helps bring people a 15 little closer to the bargaining table. 16 MR. SHANE: Well, it's not 17 THE COURT: I'm, I'm sorry sir, I'm not 18 finished. Thank you. So when the court is asking you 19 about this, it's simply an opportunity, I think, for 20 you as well as for Mr. Curtright to exchange 21 information in a way that is helpful to each other. 22 So I'm going to thank you very much for the overview 23 that you have given us and then we will talk a little 24 bit about perhaps some additional disclosure before we 25 conclude today. Mr. CurtrightIn Re: William Ames vs Curtright FAA Hearing September 20, 2016 VR # 004098-1 Page 20

1 MR. SHANE: Excuse me, Your Honor, can I add 2 something based on what you just said? 3 THE COURT: Certainly. 4 MR. SHANE: Mr. Curtright and I have engaged 5 in very lengthy discussions about the sanction. I 6 have not shared those with the court because they were 7 in the nature of settlement negotiations. But the FAA 8 has, and I don't think it's appropriate to go into 9 detail with the court, but we, I think some of it was 10 actually included in one of the early documents, but 11 we have offered to settle this case at well below the 12 sanction that we went out at. I just want to be sure 13 the court understands that. 14 THE COURT: Thank you very much for letting 15 me know that you have been in discussions with your 16 friend across the aisle, that's very helpful. 17 Anything else you would like to say before I turn to 18 Mr. Curtright? 19 MR. SHANE: No, thank you very much, Your 20 Honor. 21 THE COURT: You're welcome. Mr. Curtright, 22 let's talk a little bit with you about Page 3 of your 23 motion to dismiss, Paragraph 5, in which you indicate 24 that the FAA has never given an explanation of why 25 it's proposing an $11,000 fine and what forms theIn Re: William Ames vs Curtright FAA Hearing September 20, 2016 VR # 004098-1 Page 21

1 basis for that maximum amount. Do you see that 2 MR. CURTRIGHT: Well, they haven't. I'm 3 sorry. 4 THE COURT: You have not received any 5 information from the FAA about it? 6 MR. CURTRIGHT: No Your Honor, except we 7 received one letter that would go, an offer of $3,300 8 fine, that was it. There, there was not any extensive 9 length of discussion between Mr. Shane and myself on 10 the phone, period. He went on to some, after that, he 11 went on to some leave for like ten days, he said he 12 was going to be out of the office or something to that 13 effect, but I had never, had never heard back from him 14 after that. So that was it. There was no lengthy 15 discussion. In fact, Your Honor, the, in this whole 16 thing, in the beginning we had sent responses off to 17 the FAA which apparently didn't have permission to 18 talk to me at a certain point when we found things and 19 documents that we had that we presented to Mr. Shane 20 and they have totally ignored the fact that we had 21 presented them with the, those things, with those 22 items. I also might point out, Your Honor, that I've 23 done a little research on reference to one particular 24 finding in the matter of a company called Premier Jets 25 in Portland, Oregon, which is close to Mr. Shane.In Re: William Ames vs Curtright FAA Hearing September 20, 2016 VR # 004098-1 Page 22

1 It's Case Number CP97NMO0005, for a fine of $281, I 2 mean, there was nothing, the, the, if I might add that 3 well, the first thing that sets me off on something 4 like a fine like this, I wonder how many other people 5 have been fined. And I immediately in my mind, 6 because what I feel about the Constitution of the 7 United States, I go to the Eighth Amendment and 8 anyway, which I pay a lot of attention to the 9 Constitution, so. The Eighth Amendment states to the 10 United States Constitution, is a part of the United 11 States Bill of Rights prohibiting the Federal 12 Government from imposing excessive bail, excessive 13 fines or cruel and unusual punishment. And the U. S. 14 Supreme Court has ruled that this amendment's cruel 15 and unusual punishment clause also applies to the 16 States, the appraise, the phrases in this amendment 17 originated in the English Bill of Rights in 1689. Mr. 18 Shane doesn't seem to have any respect for this, for 19 this, this amendment, for especially if this were an 20 offense, he just kind of ignores it and slaps you down 21 with an $11,000 fine. And the first response that any 22 pilot has to make is basically go find an attorney, 23 which is going to tilt the costs, you know, tens of 24 twenties or thousands, thirty thousand dollars in 25 attorney's fees to try to defend one's self. So theIn Re: William Ames vs Curtright FAA Hearing September 20, 2016 VR # 004098-1 Page 23

1 scales of justice are unbalanced, which is wrong in my 2 opinion or my personal view, and I think it would be 3 the view of many other pilots out there who cannot 4 defend themselves against this, thus my interest in 5 this case. 6 THE COURT: Okay, thank you very much. What 7 I'm going to do at this point since Mr. Kamberg is 8 back in the room and has potentially advised Mr. 9 Shane, is find out from Mr. Shane the number of pages 10 that were actually included in the FAA's initial 11 disclosures. Mr. Shane. 12 MR. SHANE: Mr. Kamberg is not here, but he 13 informed me that it's forty pages. 14 THE COURT: Okay, thank you. Mr. Curtright, 15 turning back to you. In the initial disclosures that 16 you received from the FAA, was the packet that you 17 received about forty pages in length? 18 MR. CURTRIGHT: No, Your Honor, but let me 19 take a few minutes and go through this and see if I'm 20 missing something in this large notebook of paperwork 21 I have. So if you would just give me a moment, like a 22 couple minutes? 23 THE COURT: Sure. 24 MR. CURTRIGHT: Okay. Your Honor, I have 25 counted twenty-two pages here roughly and the, theseIn Re: William Ames vs Curtright FAA Hearing September 20, 2016 VR # 004098-1 Page 24

1 are, I believe, documents that were sent not to me to 2 begin with, they were probably through an, to an 3 attorney that we never had a, that we never hired. Mr. 4 Shane made me refer him to that. But these documents 5 are documents I got at a later date, I believe. They 6 were probably mailed to me and their initial 7 disclosures pursuant to the AALJ Order is what it says 8 on here. 9 THE COURT: Okay. 10 MR. CURTRIGHT: And for that 11 THE COURT: And I'm going to stop you Mr. 12 Curtright. 13 MR. CURTRIGHT: Yes. 14 THE COURT: Are they pages that are single 15 on one page only or are they double-sided? 16 MR. CURTRIGHT: Well, I'm just looking at 17 this, stand by. These are single pages, one-sided, 18 ma'am. And they, certain things have been omitted 19 from them, statement of case and factors affecting, 20 they are blacked out, so they're not, and I'm not sure 21 that I didn't get this most, not too, like not too 22 recently. Let's see here. I'm just 23 MR. SHANE: May I address the court, Your 24 Honor? 25 MR. CURTRIGHT: Ma'amIn Re: William Ames vs Curtright FAA Hearing September 20, 2016 VR # 004098-1 Page 25

1 THE COURT: I'm going to stop you, Mr. 2 Shane. I, I understand that you want to say 3 something. I'm still hearing from Mr. Curtright. 4 MR. SHANE: Thank you, Your Honor. 5 THE COURT: All right. 6 MR. CURTRIGHT: This is dated August 11, 7 2016, Your Honor. This, this document. So this looks 8 like something I have gotten most recently, not 9 something that was sent to me some time before, okay? 10 THE COURT: Well, that's exactly what I'm 11 asking you to look for, because material that the FAA 12 sent you was mailed on August 11, 2016. 13 MR. CURTRIGHT: That's correct. 14 THE COURT: Okay, so it sound like you got 15 something from them, and you're saying that it's only 16 twenty-two pages instead of approximately forty? 17 MR. CURTRIGHT: That's correct, twenty-two 18 pages. 19 THE COURT: Okay, Mr. Shane, you were going 20 to say something, sir? 21 MR. SHANE: Yes. I, obviously I'm not there 22 with Mr. Cartright, Curtright, I can't look over his 23 shoulder and see what he's counting, but I find it 24 hard to believe that, and he's not here in the room 25 right now, but Mr. Kamberg would omit half of theIn Re: William Ames vs Curtright FAA Hearing September 20, 2016 VR # 004098-1 Page 26

1 packet. If he says he mailed the packet, I'm sure he 2 mailed the packet. What I suggest however, Your 3 Honor, is that we not take up the court's time with 4 this matter. I'm more than happy to talk to Mr. 5 Curtright and do just a page by page comparison to be 6 sure that he got all the documents. I would also add, 7 related to his earlier comment, that he's right, when 8 I said we had settlement discussions, I was using 9 shorthand. What we had was settlement email 10 communications and the reason for that is that Mr. 11 Curtright refuses to talk to me on the phone. I have 12 called him numerous time and he's either refused to 13 re, return my calls or told me he won't talk to me. 14 THE COURT: Okay. Well, thank you for that 15 clarification. Folks, what I want to do is, I want to 16 talk about a couple other things before we conclude 17 today and I want to make sure that we get a little 18 progress made. So I'm going to skip around a little 19 bit, but if you'll bear with me, I think we can take 20 care of some, some issues today that will be helpful. 21 Mr. Curtright, I'm going to turn next to your, your 22 September 9, 2016 initial disclosures, do you have 23 those in front of you right now? 24 MR. CURTRIGHT: Let me look for it, Your 25 Honor, I'll have my secretary look for it and see.In Re: William Ames vs Curtright FAA Hearing September 20, 2016 VR # 004098-1 Page 27

1 Can you see if there's something on that? 2 MS. BIRD: Yes. 3 MR. CURTRIGHT: And Your Honor, may I 4 comment on Mr. Shane's last comment? Not to return 5 fire, but they know what they say, friendly fire, 6 returning same. 7 THE COURT: Yes, you're welcome to make your 8 statement if you need to for your record. What would 9 you like to say? 10 MR. CURTRIGHT: Mr. Shane called me one day 11 with his assistant while I was driving and I told him 12 that basically that I cannot talk with him while I was 13 driving and that's his, his whole form of 14 communications that he has had with me. 15 THE COURT: Okay. 16 MR. CURTRIGHT: His, his statement otherwise 17 is totally absurd and totally false. 18 THE COURT: Okay. Would you be available, 19 Mr. Curtright for a conversation by phone call with 20 Mr. Shane just to talk about the disclosures and see 21 if you have a page by page accurate rendition of what 22 the FAA thinks it sent to you? 23 MR. CURTRIGHT: Yes, can you hold for a 24 moment? 25 THE COURT: Certainly.In Re: William Ames vs Curtright FAA Hearing September 20, 2016 VR # 004098-1 Page 28

1 MR. CURTRIGHT: Hang on a second, I'm going 2 to talk for a second with, what I got paper 3 THE COURT: Hello? 4 MR. CURTRIGHT: I'm sorry, go ahead. Yes? 5 THE COURT: Yes. 6 MR. CURTRIGHT: I've got the documents right 7 now, Your Honor. 8 THE COURT: Okay. Mr. Curtright, let's go 9 back to your initial disclosures that you filed 10 September 9, 2016. 11 MR. CURTRIGHT: Okay. 12 THE COURT: I'm looking at Page 1 of that 13 two page document and at the bottom of Page 1 you, you 14 have indicated that you're making a request under the 15 Freedom of Information Act. Do you see that 16 particular request? It's the fourth line from the 17 bottom. 18 MR. CURTRIGHT: Yes. 19 THE COURT: Okay. Typically, Freedom of 20 Information requests or FOIA requests, are done 21 outside of the litigation process, so I'm looking at 22 this not as a FOIA request, but as a discovery 23 request. And one of the things that I look at in 24 terms of requests for information in the litigation 25 process is whether it is relevant to the proof orIn Re: William Ames vs Curtright FAA Hearing September 20, 2016 VR # 004098-1 Page 29

1 defense of a charge and how burdensome it might be if 2 it is relevant. So I looked at this particular 3 request and I, I thought maybe you could explain a 4 little bit about this to me because I don't know what 5 you're talking about when you say that there, there 6 are other pilots who may have ferules actions brought 7 against them. I don't know what that is. I looked 8 that, that word up and it's spelled F-E-R-U-L-E-S. In 9 the Black's Law Dictionary that I have and it doesn't 10 exist in there. Now that may mean I have an old 11 dictionary, but if so, perhaps you can tell me what 12 this means and what you were asking for. 13 MR. CURTRIGHT: I think, Your Honor, the 14 word is frivolous. 15 THE COURT: Oh, frivolous. Okay. I have 16 that in my dictionary. 17 MR. CURTRIGHT: I apologize. Anyway, typo, 18 but anyway. So human nature is inherently to be 19 (Feedback). 20 THE COURT: I'm hearing a strange noise. 21 Whoever has that, could they please shut that device 22 off? 23 MR. CURTRIGHT: It's not me at all. 24 THE COURT: Mr. Curtright, staying with you. 25 Mr. Curtright, staying with you. You are asking for aIn Re: William Ames vs Curtright FAA Hearing September 20, 2016 VR # 004098-1 Page 30

1 list of all other pilots in the United States that 2 have had frivolous actions brought against them by 3 who? Because it doesn't say. 4 MR. CURTRIGHT: Well, this is one of the 5 concerns I would have is wondering how many other 6 pilots have had similar situations. I have done a 7 little research on some of that because of a lot of it 8 is available through past records and I have noticed 9 that basically unfortunately that the FAA wins almost 10 everything at all times. And so that was, but I 11 wanted more time to, to explore other possibilities 12 of, and that's why the request for the additional 13 time, because there is so much I don't know and, and, 14 and I wanted to find out, have more time to find out 15 and find out who other, who other, what other pilots 16 have had, what other pilot's experiences have been. 17 So I hope you understand that my, my need, my need for 18 knowledge and wisdom in reference to this. 19 THE COURT: Okay. But it really would not 20 qualify, would it, as a frivolous action if in fact, 21 as you have noted in your motion to dismiss, filed on 22 September 19, 2016, that there is in fact a statute or 23 a regulation that talks about this particular 24 violation and that governs it. So you have on Page, 25 let's see, the pagination is not, I've had to paginateIn Re: William Ames vs Curtright FAA Hearing September 20, 2016 VR # 004098-1 Page 31

1 this myself. If we start on Page 4, Paragraph 8 of 2 your motion, talking about the regula, regulations 3 that you've been charged with, identifying it as a 4 legitimate regulation and then making an argument that 5 you qualify for relief essentially, from being found 6 liable for the violation because of the reasonable 7 time language within that regulatory statement. So it 8 doesn't appear to me that this particular case could 9 ever be identified as a frivolous action when you 10 yourself have identified it as a legitimate action 11 with regulatory authority behind it. 12 MR. CURTRIGHT: Well, I don't recall 13 THE COURT: Well, if that is so, you know, 14 and I'd look at your materials carefully. If that is 15 so, it doesn't appear to me that this particular 16 request for discovery that's contained on Page 1 of 17 the September 9, 2016 initial disclosures filed by the 18 respondent is really relevant to, to the issues that 19 the parties need to address here. Could you speak to 20 that at all or, or would you concede that that is 21 MR. CURTRIGHT: Well, I'm thinking, I'm 22 trying to think what you're, you're referring to. I 23 think you're probably saying that Freedom of 24 Information isn't relative, that the Freedom of 25 Information Act isn't relative in this case, but underIn Re: William Ames vs Curtright FAA Hearing September 20, 2016 VR # 004098-1 Page 32

1 the Freedom of Information Act, I, I could get 2 additional information about other pilots that have 3 had problems and that was my thinking on this 4 situation. 5 THE COURT: Yes, you certainly could. You 6 could certainly file a request, a Freedom of 7 Information request with the FAA agency asking for 8 information. 9 MR. CURTRIGHT: Well that's what I 10 THE COURT: asking for information. 11 MR. CURTRIGHT: I was going 12 THE COURT: That's not, that's not something 13 that I would deal with at all. 14 MR. CURTRIGHT: I understand that that's out 15 of your, but then it's still part of my discovery and 16 then if I were to find something interesting to 17 reference in the Freedom of Information Act, that was 18 something I would bring forth within the case. So, 19 therefore if we shut off discovery at this point, I 20 can't use that information or, or unless Your Honor is 21 going to allow other opportunities or something I 22 discover that I can put forth as evidence. Do you 23 understand what I'm saying? 24 THE COURT: I do. 25 MR. CURTRIGHT: So.In Re: William Ames vs Curtright FAA Hearing September 20, 2016 VR # 004098-1 Page 33

1 THE COURT: I do. Thank you. What I'm 2 going to do is this, I'm going to say that the, your 3 request under the Freedom of Information Act is 4 brought to the wrong forum. I don't deal or address 5 Freedom of Information requests for the FAA, I don't 6 have any authority to do that because I'm not an 7 employee of the FAA. So if you have Freedom of 8 Information requests, broad-based like this one and 9 you want to serve them upon the FAA, you are welcome 10 to do so and I have no control over that. The 11 litigation 12 MR. CURTRIGHT: Well, I 13 THE COURT: here, the litigation here is not 14 governed or timed by your requests for information 15 under FOIA. What you want to do in this litigation is 16 make reasonable discovery requests of your friend 17 across the aisle, Mr. Shane, that have direct 18 relevance if at all possible, to the charge that 19 you're facing. And if there are disputes about your 20 request for information for discovery, then I can 21 certainly become involved and I have, I think with 22 this particular case, my involvement will be a little 23 bit more apparent. I'll be involved a little bit more 24 than I usually am in these kinds of cases, as an 25 assistant to the parties. Currently, as I look atIn Re: William Ames vs Curtright FAA Hearing September 20, 2016 VR # 004098-1 Page 34

1 this, your request to get a list of all other pilots 2 throughout the United States that have had frivolous 3 actions brought against them is irrelevant. The 4 reason it's irrelevant is because your charge appears 5 to be non-frivolous. Your charge has grounding in the 6 regulations. You have admitted to the grounding of 7 that charge by the motions that you have brought and 8 filed on September 19, 2016. You agree in this motion 9 that you have been charged with a regulation that is 10 valid, at least it's a valid regulation in the United 11 States, and that you may have a reasonable defense 12 under it. So that's not frivolity, that's a legal 13 defense and I'm certainly happy to allow you to pursue 14 that. So if other pilots somewhere else in the United 15 States have had problems that are frivolous, that 16 really is of no relevance to this particular action 17 because this action is not frivolous. Now, let's talk 18 about the second request on Page 1 of the September 9, 19 2016 initial disclosures filed by the respondent. You 20 indicate that you're asking that all documents that 21 have been redacted by Mr. Shane be produced in their 22 entirety without redaction and then you reference a 23 document number. And I'm not quite sure what that 24 document number means. Can you tell me what that 25 document number means?In Re: William Ames vs Curtright FAA Hearing September 20, 2016 VR # 004098-1 Page 35

1 MR. CURTRIGHT: Let me look up in my notes 2 here for a moment. 3 THE COURT: Okay. 4 MR. SHANE: Can I, can I help? 5 THE COURT: I'm going to say no at this 6 point, Mr. Shane, thank you. 7 MR. SHANE: Very well. 8 MR. CURTRIGHT: I'm looking for the 9 document, Your Honor, and still there was some 10 documents 11 THE COURT: Mr. Curtright 12 MR. CURTRIGHT: there were some documents 13 blacked out, I believe, Your Honor and that's what I'm 14 probably referring to, it's all blacked out 15 THE COURT: Mr. Curtright, may, would you 16 have any objection if I asked Mr. Shane to weigh in on 17 this and explain what these documents mean? 18 MR. CURTRIGHT: Yeah, this looks like page, 19 just give me a moment here. It looks like it 20 THE COURT: Okay. 21 MR. CURTRIGHT: Page 1, 2, it's a bunch of 22 pages blacked out here, it looks like the document 23 ending in 046 and document yeah, two of them, two 24 pages here actually. 25 THE COURT: Are you looking right now atIn Re: William Ames vs Curtright FAA Hearing September 20, 2016 VR # 004098-1 Page 36

1 some materials that Mr. Shane has sent to you? 2 MR. CURTRIGHT: Yes. 3 THE COURT: Okay. Are these materials by 4 any chance attached in any way to your initial 5 disclosures dated September 9, 2016, so that I can 6 look at them as well? 7 MR. CURTRIGHT: Yes, I'm looking, so. No, 8 but I can send them to you. 9 THE COURT: Well, you don't need to send 10 them to me right now, I'm going to turn to Mr. Shane 11 and ask him if he's familiar with this document number 12 that you referenced at the bottom of Page 1 of your 13 initial disclosures. Mr. Shane? 14 MR. SHANE: Yes, Your Honor, that's our 15 file document, that's the FAA number and I'm assuming 16 the documents he's referring to is the Section B, 17 which I explained earlier is the report that's written 18 by the Flight Standards Inspector. Actually, it was 19 the practice of our office up until three years ago 20 not to disclose that document at all, but then FAA 21 Headquarters announced a policy requiring that upon 22 reasonable request, Section B's will be disclosed, 23 however, any content in the Section B that constitutes 24 pre-decisional, excuse me, deliberative pre-decisional 25 opinions be redacted. So this is standard procedureIn Re: William Ames vs Curtright FAA Hearing September 20, 2016 VR # 004098-1 Page 37

1 for my office to issue Section B's, but where the 2 Inspector gives an opinion, we redact that. 3 THE COURT: Okay, and explain to us why you 4 would redact that. 5 MR. SHANE: Yes, Your Honor. As I indicated 6 before, under both, both FOIA and discovery, I have 7 actually researched this before, but I don't have that 8 in front of me. In regards to the working of an 9 agency, not just an agency, it can be a company, any, 10 any communication between employees within an 11 organization which would constitute a single party for 12 purposes of litigation, communications between 13 individuals who are within that organization, if that 14 communication is opinioned and is not a final 15 decision, it is privileged and not subject to 16 discovery or FOIA release. FOIA release, that is 17 expressfully codified as Exemption 5. 18 THE COURT: Right, but FOIA is a different 19 issue than litigation discovery, as I am sure you are 20 aware. 21 MR. SHANE: True, but there is a great deal 22 of overlap in terms of 23 THE COURT: On, on occasion. On occasion 24 there can be overlap, but there are things that need 25 not be disclosed under FOIA that must be disclosed inIn Re: William Ames vs Curtright FAA Hearing September 20, 2016 VR # 004098-1 Page 38

1 litigation on occasion. 2 MR. SHANE: Well, it is the position of the 3 FAA.. 4 THE COURT: So I'm 5 MR. SHANE: and the opinion of an Inspector, 6 because it's not final, it's not necessarily 7 THE COURT: I'm going to interrupt you. I'm 8 interrupting you, Mr. Shane. We don't need to get 9 into the weeds on this. I'm just saying to you, my 10 first question to you was what did the document number 11 reference? And you have told us that. So as I 12 understand it, based on the second question to you, is 13 why was, were some things redacted? You're telling us 14 that you're claiming privilege because it was pre15 decisional, is that correct? 16 MR. SHANE: Yes, Your Honor. 17 THE COURT: Okay, great. Thank you. Now, 18 let's talk a little bit more about the respondent's 19 motion for dismissal. Mr. Curtright, you have 20 indicated in this motion with the attached eleven 21 exhibits, that you believe that there are two issues, 22 as I understand it. One, that your time period for 23 producing documents to the FAA was not unreasonable 24 under the regulation and two, that the FAA has, has 25 not and cannot prove that the $11,000 proposed penaltyIn Re: William Ames vs Curtright FAA Hearing September 20, 2016 VR # 004098-1 Page 39

1 is appropriate. Would that be a general summary that 2 correctly identifies what this motion says? 3 MR. CURTRIGHT: Yes, Your Honor. 4 THE COURT: Okay. So this type of motion is 5 typically brought as a summary judgment motion, when 6 you're attaching documents like this. 7 MR. CURTRIGHT: Yes. 8 THE COURT: But I'm also hearing from you 9 that you think you need to discover some more 10 information before the court issues final ruling on 11 this type of motion. So 12 MR. CURTRIGHT: You know what, I think I'm 13 okay, Your Honor, to proceed. But I'd like to hear 14 what you have to say on it, though. 15 THE COURT: Well I, I think at the very 16 minimum, you and Mr. Shane need to talk to each other 17 and do a page by page comparison of what you actually 18 received in their initial disclosures, so that we make 19 sure that you got everything that the FAA sent to you. 20 And I think 21 MR. CURTRIGHT: Your Honor? 22 THE COURT: Yes? 23 MR. CURTRIGHT: If I might speak. First of 24 all, Mr. Shane's statement basically is that he has a 25 certain privilege, it's not privilege is it? I mean,In Re: William Ames vs Curtright FAA Hearing September 20, 2016 VR # 004098-1 Page 40

1 am I wrong here? Did he have the privilege of, of, of 2 holding back information? And when I've gone at, part 3 of the problem here is at the beginning when I sent 4 information to the FAA, it seems to go to the attorney 5 rather than to the FAA. I have to say that I was very 6 impressed with the FAA from Portland, Oregon that came 7 out and visited with me after I wrote, wrote a 8 complaint to them that I wasn't being treated right by 9 the legal department and the FAA seemed to want this 10 battle to go forward and wanted to fine me huge 11 amounts of money. It seems like they have too much 12 privilege, if I might add. I'd like to bring this to 13 a closure, but this is, what they're doing, it's been 14 wrong, in my opinion. 15 THE COURT: Okay. To answer to your 16 question, can a litigant decline to disclose certain 17 information regarding their preparation and trial 18 materials? The answer is yes, a litigant can hold 19 back certain preparation and trial materials in 20 preparation of their case and, and the reason that is, 21 in part, is because each side has an independent 22 obligation to do investigation and each side has the 23 right to decide how they are going to present or 24 defend on certain issues and not disclose their trial 25 strategies. So in a large organization like the FAAIn Re: William Ames vs Curtright FAA Hearing September 20, 2016 VR # 004098-1 Page 41

1 where you have a variety of different people working 2 on the same case, you can have what's called pre3 deliberation privacy so that the people who are 4 involved in a case can talk to each other, provide 5 information to each other, and opine about different 6 aspects of the case without any of that being 7 disclosed to the opposing side. There are sometimes 8 people who carry that veil of privacy a little too far 9 and sometimes there's litigation about that, but in 10 general, most people, especially folks represented by 11 counsel, are pretty good about knowing what to 12 disclose and what not to disclose, although I 13 certainly have had on rare occasions, a request to 14 look at that more closely. So to answer your 15 question, yes, in litigation, both here and everywhere 16 else in the country, there is a certain amount of 17 information that litigants can withhold from each 18 other for trial preparation purposes. Secondly, let's 19 talk again about the page by page comparison that I 20 think the parties need to have to make sure that both 21 of you have the same information. Mr. Curtright, are 22 you willing to talk with Mr. Shane, just to look at a 23 page by page comparison of what you received as 24 initial disclosures versus what the FAA sent to you as 25 initial disclosures?In Re: William Ames vs Curtright FAA Hearing September 20, 2016 VR # 004098-1 Page 42

1 MR. CURTRIGHT: I, I suppose so. Yes. 2 THE COURT: Okay. When would you be 3 available to do that? Because the court is going to 4 set up a telephone conference for the two of you. 5 MR. CURTRIGHT: Oh boy, that's a good 6 question. I don't know. I would have to get back to 7 the court if I can. 8 THE COURT: No, you're going to be talking 9 to me right now about that. What's your availability? 10 Can you tell me? 11 MR. CURTRIGHT: Within the next ten days, I 12 would suppose, so give me 13 THE COURT: Sure, that would be great. 14 MR. CURTRIGHT: put anything together, 15 maybe, maybe exchange things back and forth via fax or 16 email, which would be fine. 17 THE COURT: Well I, well I think it would be 18 easiest if the two of you just talked to each other. 19 Is there a problem with that? 20 MR. CURTRIGHT: Ahh, I suppose that would be 21 fine. 22 THE COURT: When about, let's talk about 23 next week, which would be the week of September 26, 24 2016, throughout that week. Do you have some open 25 times available?In Re: William Ames vs Curtright FAA Hearing September 20, 2016 VR # 004098-1 Page 43

1 MR. CURTRIGHT: A Friday is usually better 2 in the afternoon for me. 3 THE COURT: Okay, would this Friday be 4 MR. CURTRIGHT: .. something like that, two 5 o'clock would be good. 6 THE COURT: Could we include this Friday as 7 well? 8 MR. SHANE: Your Honor, I usually, Friday is 9 my RDO. 10 THE COURT: Okay, so when you say RDO, Mr. 11 Shane, what does that mean? 12 MR. SHANE: Off on Fridays, usually. 13 THE COURT: Okay. 14 MR. SHANE: Friday afternoons for other 15 reasons, Friday afternoon is, is not good for me. 16 THE COURT: Okay. Well, staying with you, 17 Mr. Shane, let's talk about next week. 18 MR. SHANE: Okay. 19 THE COURT: What, what time, if any, do you 20 not have available? 21 MR. SHANE: Let's see, I have an informal 22 conference Monday the 26th from nine to eleven. I 23 have a meeting, an office meeting fro, on the 27th 24 from nine to eleven. I think the rest of my week is 25 fairly open and my regular hours are seven-thirty toIn Re: William Ames vs Curtright FAA Hearing September 20, 2016 VR # 004098-1 Page 44

1 three-thirty. 2 THE COURT: Okay, thank you. Mr. Curtright, 3 let's talk to you then again about your availability 4 next week, the week of September 26, 2016. Are you 5 available Monday from eleven to three-thirty at any 6 time? 7 MR. CURTRIGHT: No. 8 MR. SHANE: Your Honor 9 MR. CURTRIGHT: No. 10 MR. SHANE: about Pacific Daylight Time, 11 correct? 12 THE COURT: Ye, I believe you're both on the 13 same West Coast area, are you not? 14 MR. SHANE: That's correct, Your Honor. 15 THE COURT: Okay. So we're talking about 16 your, your time zone, Pacific Time, eleven to three17 thirty. Mr. Curtright, do you have time available 18 that day? 19 MR. CURTRIGHT: Ma'am, I'm pretty well 20 booked up through the week, so it would have to be on 21 a Friday, that's my problem, so anyway, is there a 22 way, because I'm thinking 23 THE COURT: That, what are you 24 MR. CURTRIGHT: a Friday appointment? 25 THE COURT: There is no Friday appointmentIn Re: William Ames vs Curtright FAA Hearing September 20, 2016 VR # 004098-1 Page 45

1 available for you. Can you open up your calendar and 2 take a look at what else you have open? 3 MR. CURTRIGHT: I'm trying to. What, stand 4 by here, if you could hold for a moment. 5 THE COURT: Surely. 6 MR. CURTRIGHT: Is Mr. Shane on some, is it 7 Mr. Shane a contracted lawyer, may I ask, Your Honor, 8 or is he actually an employee, a full time employee at 9 the... 10 THE COURT: I 11 MR. CURTRIGHT: he's off a lot. I'm just 12 trying to figure out how to work him or schedule him, 13 kind of thing. 14 THE COURT: Well, I'm not sure if that 15 question is relevant. 16 MR. CURTRIGHT: Okay. 17 THE COURT: He's the appointed counsel for 18 the FAA in this case. 19 MR. CURTRIGHT: Yeah. 20 THE COURT: And he's available Monday 21 through Thursday of next week. 22 MR. CURTRIGHT: Okay, let's shoot for a 23 Thursday afternoon, let's say, at two o'clock. How 24 about that? 25 THE COURT: Okay Mr. Shane, is Thursday,In Re: William Ames vs Curtright FAA Hearing September 20, 2016 VR # 004098-1 Page 46

1 February, I'm sorry, September 29, 2016 at two p.m. 2 Pacific Time acceptable? 3 MR. SHANE: Yes it is, Your Honor. 4 THE COURT: Okay. Mr. Shane, I'm going to 5 ask you to schedule the matter from two to three p.m. 6 on your calendar and 7 MR. SHANE: I am doing so, Your Honor. 8 THE COURT: And Mr. Curtright, I will ask 9 you to do the same thing, sir. 10 MR. CURTRIGHT: All right. 11 THE COURT: And then I will ask Mr. 12 Curtright to call Mr. Shane, since Mr. Curtright is 13 not sure about the, the disclosures, I think that Mr. 14 Curtright, you should be contacting Mr. Shane. Mr. 15 Shane, could you give Mr. Curtright your phone number 16 that you will be available at, at two o'clock on 17 Thursday, September 29, 2016? 18 MR. SHANE: Certainly, Your Honor. 425-227- 19 2165. 20 THE COURT: Could you say that again, it was 21 a little too fast for me to even write down. MR. 22 SHANE: 425-227-2165. 23 THE COURT: Mr. Curtright, did you get that? 24 MR. CURTRIGHT: Yes, ma'am. And if I might 25 make a comment?In Re: William Ames vs Curtright FAA Hearing September 20, 2016 VR # 004098-1 Page 47

1 THE COURT: Okay. 2 MR. CURTRIGHT: Ah, okay. In dealing with 3 Mr. Shane, okay? It's been very difficult. It's like 4 he doesn't want to resolve any issues, he wants to do, 5 use trickery and I don't like it, okay? I think it's 6 unethical. And I, and I'm just saying this because we 7 got a court case going here, but I've never 8 encountered anything like this before, and I expect 9 better out of my government. I always have a saying 10 when the government is afraid of the people, we have 11 democracy in action, when we have vice versa, we have 12 the, you know what I'm saying, we have, this is, this 13 isn't right, the way it's been going. And Mr. Shane, 14 I've sent him documents in reference to this and the 15 only good and wonderful response I got is from the FAA 16 people in Portland, the rest of everything I've sent 17 to Mr. Shane has been hidden. And I think this is, 18 this is, my communication with Mr. Shane is going to 19 be otherwise than constructive, I really don't have 20 much to say to him. But I will do my best in 21 reference to being sure we exchanged documents, and 22 everything has been pretty much like in fantasy land 23 in talking to him prior to this. Does that make 24 sense? 25 THE COURT: Thank you for your comment.In Re: William Ames vs Curtright FAA Hearing September 20, 2016 VR # 004098-1 Page 48

1 What this phone call on September 29, 2016 at two p.m. 2 Pacific Time is supposed to be for is to simply make 3 sure that you, Mr. Curtright, have gotten all the 4 materials that Mr. Shane says that he sent to you and 5 Mr. Shane has offered to do a page by page comparison 6 with you to insure that. So 7 MR. CURTRIGHT: Are you, are you present 8 during that time, Your Honor or not? 9 THE COURT: I will not be. No, this is 10 something that you two should be able to do without 11 the court's assistance. 12 MR. CURTRIGHT: All right. Okay. 13 THE COURT: Yes. So when you 14 MR. CURTRIGHT: And now 15 THE COURT: when you look at a document, you 16 can look at a document and say, Page 1 reads at the 17 top of the document, this. 18 MR. CURTRIGHT: I understand. 19 THE COURT: Do you have a Page 1? Yes. 20 Page 2 at the top of the page says X, do you have Page 21 2? Yes. That kind of thing. It should be pretty 22 easy for both of you to do. Now at the end of that 23 page comparison, if the two of you want to talk about 24 other things, no one's precluding you from doing that, 25 you're welcome to also do that if you want. I wouldIn Re: William Ames vs Curtright FAA Hearing September 20, 2016 VR # 004098-1 Page 49

1 encourage it. But if you don't want to, you don't 2 have to. Any questions, Mr. Curtright? 3 MR. CURTRIGHT: No, ma'am. 4 THE COURT: Okay, and Mr. Curtright again, 5 it is your obligation to call Mr. Shane, so you want 6 to be the one initiating the phone call. 7 MR. CURTRIGHT: All right, I will do so. 8 THE COURT: Okay, thank you. Now, 9 disclosures, it appears that there may be some still 10 outstanding requests for disclosures. Mr. Shane, 11 starting with you, I know we've had initial 12 disclosures, is there some type of discovery that you 13 anticipate you still need to do for your client, and 14 if so, what might it be? 15 MR. SHANE: Well, I usually submit the 16 standard discovery request, which calls for disclosure 17 of any witnesses, expert witnesses and what physical 18 evidence the party opponent intends to introduce at 19 trial. I haven't done that yet because Your Honor's 20 order seemed to imply that, that I should hold off and 21 wait until Your Honor orders a discovery schedule. 22 THE COURT: Correct. Mr. Curtright, turning 23 to you, what kind of discovery, if any, do you think 24 you need to do still before I rule on any motions that 25 you have filed?In Re: William Ames vs Curtright FAA Hearing September 20, 2016 VR # 004098-1 Page 50

1 MR. CURTRIGHT: (No audible response). 2 THE COURT: Mr. Curtright? 3 MR. CURTRIGHT: Right. There was expert 4 witnesses or disclosure of any sort, or interrogations 5 or stuff like that, what do you, what, I don't know 6 what we have in mind here. So. And it's blacked out, 7 you know 8 THE COURT: Yes all, all of that really is 9 what we're talking about, whether you have an interest 10 in finding out certain things from the FAA that you 11 don't already know. 12 MR. CURTRIGHT: Right. This, this seems 13 like most of this has been to harass me and basically 14 have me paying a large fine and I am, but I will know 15 a little, whatever, I just don't want to know what's, 16 what, I don't know what, Your Honor, where we're going 17 with this. 18 THE COURT: Yes I, I will tell you that as I 19 look at this particular case, it seems to be a fairly 20 straightforward case and as I have mentioned to the 21 parties before in the order that I issued on May 20, 22 2016, there appeared to be a very narrow scope of 23 dispute between the parties. I'm not sure that an 24 extensive litigation or discovery is necessary in this 25 case, although it's certainly not for me to tell theIn Re: William Ames vs Curtright FAA Hearing September 20, 2016 VR # 004098-1 Page 51

1 parties what they should be doing in that regard. It 2 appears to me, and I could be wrong, but just on the 3 surface, it appears that there is an allegation by the 4 FAA that the respondent did not produce his records in 5 a reasonable time after the FAA requested them. The 6 respondent is asserting, at least in this recent 7 motion to dismiss, that he did provide the records 8 within a reasonable period of time. If the FAA is 9 correct that the respondent did not produce the 10 records within a reasonable period of time, then the 11 issue between the parties becomes what is the 12 appropriate civil penalty to impose for such a 13 violation? The respondent has raised an interesting 14 issue about what is a reasonable period of time? What 15 does that mean? Have there been any rulings about 16 that in the past? That certainly is something that 17 could be addressed by written motions, I think, but 18 you might want to talk about that or consider that in 19 this period of time that we have before our next 20 conference. Mr. Curtright, you had asked, you know, 21 about what the scope of discovery would be, well 22 certainly the scope of discovery could include your 23 request and we had talked about this a little bit last 24 time. For the FAA to explain in writing how it 25 reached its proposed penalty. We obviously have heardIn Re: William Ames vs Curtright FAA Hearing September 20, 2016 VR # 004098-1 Page 52

1 an explanation from Mr. Shane today orally, but it's 2 also something that you can talk about in your 3 discovery exchange. So why don't I do this? I will 4 codify by a court order that you are going to have 5 this discussion on September 29, 2016 at two p.m. 6 Pacific Standard Time, initiated by phone call by Mr. 7 Curtright to do the page by page comparison of the 8 FAA's initial disclosure package to the respondent 9 that was mailed on August 11, 2016. I will also open 10 today for the parties, the general discovery exchange 11 period and I'm going to keep that open at least 12 preliminarily for a short period of time. Mr. Shane, 13 how much time do you think is, you would need for just 14 the request to be sent out, for the time to get a 15 response and then any follow up? What's your, what 16 are you looking at in terms of a general exchange? At 17 least preliminarily. 18 MR. SHANE: I could initiate the request 19 possibly this week, certainly within two weeks. I 20 would say, I can definitely initiate it this week and 21 normally we request for responses within thirty days, 22 that's standard practice. 23 THE COURT: Right, and it's, its regulatory 24 as well. So let's talk about maybe having a sixty day 25 discovery exchange period and then having the thirdIn Re: William Ames vs Curtright FAA Hearing September 20, 2016 VR # 004098-1 Page 53

1 follow up conference, would that work for you, Mr. 2 Shane? 3 MR. SHANE: Yes, Your Honor. 4 THE COURT: Mr. Curtright, would that work 5 for you as well? 6 MR. CURTRIGHT: Yes, I think so. 7 THE COURT: Okay. 8 MR. CURTRIGHT: Yes, ma'am. 9 THE COURT: Yes, let's talk about, in 10 looking at our calendars, today is September 20, 2016, 11 let's look at probably the very first part of December 12 2016 for a follow up phone call, just to see where we 13 are and see if there's anything else that needs to be 14 done before we start really getting into the meat of 15 the issues that are in dispute between the parties. 16 Because quite frankly, from what I can see, most of 17 the facts are not in dispute at all, it's whether or 18 not there has been compliance by the respondent in 19 terms of the reasonable time for producing the 20 records, and whether or not the FAA has a, a grounds 21 to show that the proposed $11,000 fine is appropriate 22 in this case. So Mr. Shane, starting with you, 23 looking at the week of December 5, 2016, do you have 24 any blackout times during that time for a ninety 25 minute telephone conference?In Re: William Ames vs Curtright FAA Hearing September 20, 2016 VR # 004098-1 Page 54

1 MR. SHANE: Does Your Honor anticipate 2 ninety minutes? 3 THE COURT: I'm just, I'm looking at the 4 clock and it's been over one hour so far and I want to 5 err on the side of caution so that I have a court 6 reporter available in case we 7 MR. SHANE: Understood, Your Honor. At this 8 moment in time, I do not have any, the first week of 9 December I'm open. 10 THE COURT: Okay, Mr. Curtright? 11 MR. SHANE: The only thing, sorry, the only 12 exception, pardon me, I am busy Tuesday morning, I've 13 got two meetings scheduled on the 6th of December; 14 other than that, I'm open. 15 THE COURT: Okay, thank you, Mr. Shane. Mr. 16 Curtright, same question to you, sir. 17 MR. CURTRIGHT: We'll make it work, Your 18 Honor. 19 THE COURT: Do you have a preference, Mr. 20 Curtright for day or time during the week of December 21 5? 22 MR. CURTRIGHT: Always the Thursday or 23 preferably Friday. 24 THE COURT: Okay, well Friday's don't seem 25 to work for Mr. Shane, so let's talk about ThursdayIn Re: William Ames vs Curtright FAA Hearing September 20, 2016 VR # 004098-1 Page 55

1 and let's, let's keep with our one-thirty East Coast 2 Time, which is ten-thirty West Coast Time? Is that 3 correct, Mr. Shane? 4 MR. SHANE: Yes, Your Honor. 5 THE COURT: Okay. Let's say one-thirty for 6 Thursday, December 8, 2016 and I'm just going to err 7 on the side of caution and set it from one-thirty to 8 three; we may be done long before then, but because 9 this particular conference ran over twenty minutes, I 10 think I had better make sure that everybody has the 11 time set on their calendar. With that, on behalf of 12 the FAA, Mr. Shane, is there anything else that we can 13 address for you today? 14 MR. SHANE: No, Your Honor, thank you. 15 THE COURT: Thank you. Mr. Curtright, on 16 behalf of yourself, anything we can address for you? 17 MR. CURTRIGHT: Well the, I'd like to get 18 some kind of answer on the motion, so we have, so that 19 we will 20 THE COURT: And which, which motions would 21 that be at this time? 22 MR. CURTRIGHT: I, I'm sorry? 23 THE COURT: Which motion are you talking 24 about? Are you talking about the September 19, 2016 25 motion for dismissal?In Re: William Ames vs Curtright FAA Hearing September 20, 2016 VR # 004098-1 Page 56

1 MR. CURTRIGHT: Yes, ma'am. 2 THE COURT: Okay. I have deferred that 3 motion because as I understood it from you and your 4 friend across the aisle, Mr. Shane, you wanted to do 5 some additional discovery before I ruled on this 6 motion and so I'm reserving the motion until after we 7 convene on December 8, 2016. 8 MR. SHANE: I, I just am going on the record 9 since I, I didn't realize we were actually addressing 10 this at all. Of course, I'm opposed to the motion and 11 I would add, I believe Your Honor has already ruled. 12 I think this is a reiteration of the same motion that 13 Mr. Curtright filed earlier that Your Honor already 14 addressed. 15 MS. BIRD: not. 16 THE COURT: But thank you. There's actually 17 new materials in this particular motion for dismissal, 18 Mr. Shane, that did not exist in the prior motion 19 because Mr. Curtright has added in, in particular this 20 argument that he has in fact produced records for 21 inspection in a reasonable amount of time, as provided 22 by the regulation. I refer the parties again to Page 23 4, Paragraph 8. 24 MR. SHANE: I would be happy to address 25 that. I, I mean, I think Your Honor is doing theIn Re: William Ames vs Curtright FAA Hearing September 20, 2016 VR # 004098-1 Page 57

1 right thing, let's, let's conclude discovery and then 2 if, I would ask Your Honor do the following proce, as 3 a procedural matter, that Your Honor deny the motion 4 for now without prejudice and have Mr. Curtright file 5 a motion for summary judgement on that basis after the 6 discovery has been completed. 7 THE COURT: Your oral motion for a court 8 ruling today is respectfully denied. Your oral motion 9 for an immediate ruling before the FAA files a 10 response is denied and the court will again reserve 11 this motion until after December 8, 2016. I think in 12 fact, that this motion could be converted as it is 13 with some supplementation as a summary judgement 14 motion and rather than force Mr. Curtright to refile a 15 lot of this material in a separate package, I think 16 it's most efficacious to simply keep it alive and 17 reserved until after the parties have conducted the 18 discovery that is needed. But I think 19 MR. SHANE: That's pretty close to what I 20 was suggesting, Your Honor. I think 21 THE COURT: All right. 22 MR. SHANE: .. I think we're on the same 23 page. 24 THE COURT: Excellent. Mr. Curtright, any 25 further questions that you have about this proceedingIn Re: William Ames vs Curtright FAA Hearing September 20, 2016 VR # 004098-1 Page 58

1 before we close today? 2 MR. CURTRIGHT: No, ma'am. 3 THE COURT: Okay. Then I, I will wish you 4 both the very best as you have your private 5 conversation next week on September 29, 2016 at two 6 p.m. Pacific Time. I look forward to talking with you 7 again in December 2016. It appears our business today 8 is complete. 9 MR. SHANE: I apologize, Your Honor, I just 10 have a quick follow up question that just kind of 11 popped into my head. Does Your Honor want any kind 12 of, some kind of communication back from the parties 13 regarding next week's meeting or is Your Honor just 14 going to leave it up to either party to raise a motion 15 or objections if that party is not satisfied? 16 THE COURT: Well 17 MR. SHANE: How does Your Honor want the 18 follow up to work, I guess, is my question. 19 THE COURT: Let's talk about that for just a 20 moment. Mr. Shane, since you have raised this, do you 21 have a preference? 22 MR. SHANE: Yes, my preference would be is 23 to leave it up to a party to either file an objection 24 or, or I guess that would be Mr. Curtright, I mean, if 25 Mr. Curtright doesn't call and, you know, doesn'tIn Re: William Ames vs Curtright FAA Hearing September 20, 2016 VR # 004098-1 Page 59

1 appear at the time that Your Honor ordered, I doubt 2 that I would do anything. But I didn't know whether 3 Your Honor was expecting some kind of, you know, 4 report from the parties saying we met and we resolved 5 or we met and we didn't resolve or I just wanted to 6 know what Your Honor had in mind. 7 THE COURT: Okay. Mr. Curtright, do you 8 have any thoughts about that? 9 MR. CURTRIGHT: Not at this time, Your 10 Honor. 11 THE COURT: Okay. This is what I would 12 suggest. I'm going to presume that everything went 13 well unless someone's unhappy. I think that this 14 particular phone call should occur and the court is 15 directing the parties to be available and to 16 participate in it. This is for Mr. Curtright's 17 benefit in particular, so if for any reason Mr. 18 Curtright, you are not satisfied with this particular 19 phone call, then you should bring it to the attention 20 of the court and you do that 21 MR. CURTRIGHT: Yes, Your Honor. 22 THE COURT: with a motion. If you are 23 satisfied, I presume that everything went well and you 24 don't have to do anything. 25 MR. SHANE: Thank you, Your Honor.In Re: William Ames vs Curtright FAA Hearing September 20, 2016 VR # 004098-1 Page 60

1 THE COURT: And does that answer your 2 question, Mr. Shane? 3 MR. SHANE: Fully. Thank you, Your Honor. 4 THE COURT: Okay, and Mr. Curtright, does 5 that work for you? 6 MR. CURTRIGHT: Yes ma'am, yes Your Honor. 7 THE COURT: Okay, excellent. So with that, 8 it appears that our business is complete. As I 9 mentioned earlier, I will be sending out an order 10 codifying what we have discussed and decided today. 11 We can go off the record and I wish you all a good 12 day. Thank you very much. 13 MR. SHANE: Thank you, your Honor. 14 THE COURT: Bye bye. 15 MR. CURTRIGHT: Have a good one, thank you. 16 (WHEREUPON, the litigation scheduling conference was 17 concluded at 2:56 p.m.) 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25In Re: William Ames vs Curtright FAA Hearing September 20, 2016 VR # 004098-1 Page 61

1 STIPULATION 2 3 The foregoing matter was taken on the date, and at 4 the time and place set out on the title page hereof. 5 6 It was requested that the matter be taken by the 7 reporter and that the same be reduced to typewritten 8 form. 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 251 2 3 4

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25 24 23 22 **CERTIFICATE OF REPORTER AND SECURE ENCRYPTED**

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