### Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 07-01-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 1

DEPARTMENT OF ENERGY

APPLIANCE STANDARDS AND RULEMAKING FEDERAL ADVISORY COMMITTEE MEETING

Department of Energy 1000 Independence Avenue, SW Forrestal Building Washington, D.C. 20585

Monday, July 1, 2013

Reported by: Christine Allen, RPR/CSR, Capital Reporting Company

### Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 07-01-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 2 1 A P P E A R A N C E S 2 Neil Eisner, Facilitator 3 DOE and ASRAC Representatives: 4 John Cymbalsky, ASRAC Designated Federal Officer, Supervisory Operations Research Analyst, 5 U.S. Department of Energy 6 Laura Barhydt, U.S. Department of Energy 7 Ashley Armstrong, U.S. Department of Energy 8 Other Selected Members: 9 Karim Amrane, ACHRI 10 Timothy Ballo, Earth Justice 11 Jeff Bauman, National Refrigeration & Air- Conditioning 12 John Bean, Schneider Electric 13 Rodney Beever, United Cool Air 14 Mary Dane, Traulsen 15 Paul Doppel, Mitsubishi Electric U.S., Inc. 16 Mark Fly, AAON 17 Geoffrey Halley, SJI Consultants, Inc. 18 John Hurst, Lennox International, Inc. 19 Charles Hon, True Manufacturing 20 Jill Hootman, Trane 21 Marshall Hunt, Pacific Gas and Electric Company 22 Diane Jakobs, Rheem

### Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 07-01-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 3 1 A P P E A R A N C E S (Continued) 2 Other Selected Members (Cont'd): 3 Tom Johnson, Daikin McQuay 4 Michael Kojak, Underwriters Laboratories, LLC 5 Karen Meyers, Rheem Manufacturing Co. 6 Peter Molvie, Cleaver-Brooks Product Development 7 Frank Myers, PVI Industries 8 Jeff Kleiss, Lochinvar, LLC 9 Harvey Sachs, American Council for an Energy- Efficient Economy 10 Ronald Shebik, Hussmann Corporation 11 Louis Starr, Northwest Energy Efficiency Alliance 12 Frank Stanonik, ACHRI 13 Russell Tharp, Goodman Manufacturing 14 Robert Whitwell, Carrier 15 Wes Wostal, Climate Master 16 Navigant: 17 Aris Maranton 18 Michael Rivest 19 Collin Weber 20 Laura Degitsz 21 Corey Tucker 22

### Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 07-01-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 4 1 P R O C E E D I N G S 2 MR. EISNER: First of all, for all of you 3 from out of town, welcome to Washington in the summer. 4 I'm sure you're all enjoying it. 5 We've had a lot happen since the last 6 meeting, including an ASRAC meeting, so I asked John 7 if he wanted to start off, and talk a little bit about 8 what we sent him, and what they worked out there. 9 MR. CYMBALSKY: Okay. Thanks, Neil. 10 MR. SACHS: Could we take 10 seconds just to 11 welcome Ashley back? 12 MR. EISNER: We could. 13 MS. ARMSTRONG: I'm here. 14 MR. EISNER: Did you want to say a toast? 15 MR. SACHS: To Ashley. 16 MR. EISNER: Welcome back, Ashley. 17 MS. ARMSTRONG: Thank you. 18 MR. EISNER: I'm sorry. I should have 19 remembered that. 20 MS. ARMSTRONG: Thank you. 21 MR. CYMBALSKY: And by the way, we have a 22 new court reporter, or a --

### Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 07-01-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 5 1 MS. ARMSTRONG: We have a new version. 2 MR. CYMBALSKY: -- different court reporter 3 today, Christine Allen. 4 MR. EISNER: And I'm going to tell you to do 5 what I just forgot to do, which is remember to turn 6 your mikes on, and remember your names, and repeat 7 your names, until she can at least get used to you. 8 And now, we're back here, John. 9 MR. CYMBALSKY: Okay. Thank you, yes, and 10 welcome back, Ashley. She took all of about three or 11 four days off, before you've probably seen a few test 12 procedures fly out the door in the last couple of 13 days, so we can thank her for that. Also, I wanted to 14 update you on the AEDM portion of what we put forward 15 to ASRAC last Thursday. 16 So, the report that we sent forward with the 17 AEDM recommendations was approved by ASRAC. So, DOE 18 will now turn that into a Notice of Proposed 19 Rulemaking in the coming weeks or months, however long 20 it takes, hopefully, not that long. 21 You know, I'm loathe to promise anyone a 22 date in this job.

### Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 07-01-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 6 1 Yeah, I'm not. 2 Also, other exciting news for the program, I 3 think next -- the last week, last Tuesday, you 4 probably heard or read about President Obama's speech 5 regarding climate initiatives. And he specifically 6 mentioned the Appliance Standards Program as one that 7 he thinks his executive powers can go a long way 8 towards meeting some goals. So, it's good for the 9 program. I think, personally, good for us to you know 10 get the recognition of what we do here, which is save 11 a lot of energy and a lot of carbon. 12 So, we'll be on the hook for some big 13 savings over the next few years, so look for some more 14 rules coming out of our office. And so, I just want 15 to recognize everybody's hard work. I know we've been 16 through, what, seven or so meetings now, and I think 17 we should all be proud of ourselves for coming up with 18 at least a portion of what we've set out to do towards 19 the end of the summer. I think it was a good bit of 20 work to get to the AEDM Agreement, and I personally, 21 and the program, thanks everyone for working so hard 22 on getting that agreement done.

### Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 07-01-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 7 1 And like I said, we'll have an NOPR out 2 shortly on the subject. Thank you. 3 MR. EISNER: We've also had a special 4 meeting last Friday. Do you want to report anything 5 from that meeting? Did everything get done that the 6 group wanted? 7 MS. BARHYDT: So, we met with the Commercial 8 Refrigeration equipment manufacturers, and heard some 9 of the issues that they have; questions, in 10 particular, about grouping models and testing. And so 11 basically what we did, it was an informational session 12 for the Department to hear about some of their 13 concerns. And as we go through the material today, 14 you'll be seeing all of the information that we 15 gathered during that session. 16 MR. EISNER: Does anybody have any questions 17 or comments? 18 Are you ready to dig in on the next issue? 19 MR. AMRANE: Are there copies of this 20 presentation? 21 MS. ARMSTRONG: It's different, I think. 22 MR. EISNER: This is the one we were working

### Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 07-01-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 8 1 at the last meeting, but it's been changed -- 2 MS. ARMSTRONG: It's been revised. 3 MR. EISNER: -- to reflect what Laura was 4 just talking about? 5 MS. ARMSTRONG: Yes. 6 MR. EISNER: Is it possible -- 7 MS. BARHYDT: The one that has the notes 8 from CRE. Well -- 9 MS. ARMSTRONG: This is the CRE. 10 MS. BARHYDT: -- I'm not positive if it's 11 posted on the SharePoint or not; I'd have to double 12 check which version was up. 13 MR. SACHS: I have an extra copy of the 6-7. 14 If this thing changed, I can't help. 15 MR. EISNER: All right, they are going to 16 make copies. Is everybody comfortable with starting 17 while the copies are being made? 18 MR. SACHS: Sure. 19 MR. EISNER: Good. How do you want to start 20 off? Go back to the last slide? 21 MS. BARHYDT: Well, actually, let's start at 22 the beginning.

### Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 07-01-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 9 1 MR. EISNER: Okay. 2 MR. SACHS: A little refresher. 3 MS. BARHYDT: We went three weeks this time, 4 so people may have forgotten. 5 MR. EISNER: Can people see this slide, or 6 should I -- am I in the way? 7 MS. BARHYDT: So, three weeks ago when we 8 met, we went over basic model definitions for each of 9 the different types of products, and everybody gave 10 input on how they thought that the basic model 11 definition should be clarified for their specific 12 products. So, this is the definition we came up with 13 for commercial warm air furnaces. Are there any other 14 questions or comments about the warm air furnace 15 definition? I'll give you all a second to read it. 16 Yep. 17 MR. EISNER: Any questions? 18 MR. AMRANE: Yes, Karim Amrane. 19 I guess I have a question, more for the 20 manufacturers in the room, but would it make sense, 21 also, here to exclude some of the features that exist 22 on the AC side, because they are part of the same

### Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 07-01-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 10 1 product, or is it already taken care of with the other 2 definition? 3 MS. MYERS: This is Karen Myers with Rheem, 4 and I think I agree with Karim's suggestion because 5 often, these commercial warm air furnaces are part of 6 a packaged unit. So, maybe I just have a question 7 that affects energy efficiency. If it's part of a 8 packaged unit, are you just talking about the AFUE 9 portion of it? 10 MS. ARMSTRONG: This is Ashley from DOE. 11 Those factors would not affect AFUE. Or thermal, 12 yeah; it's thermal and combustion. 13 MS. MYERS: Okay. 14 MS. ARMSTRONG: Yeah. 15 MR. EISNER: Do you have a question, Jill? 16 MS. HOOTMAN: No. I'm just -- thermal 17 efficiency; that is correct. 18 MR. EISNER: Is there a reason you're not 19 sitting at the table? 20 MS. HOOTMAN: Well, they said there weren't 21 any chairs. 22 MS. ARMSTRONG: Here, you are, grab a chair,

### Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 07-01-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 11 1 and scoot on in. 2 COURT REPORTER: And identify yourself 3 please. 4 MS. HOOTMAN: Jill Hootman, Trane. 5 COURT REPORTER: I can't hear you. You're 6 not on the record. 7 MR. EISNER: Jill Hootman. 8 COURT REPORTER: Thank you. 9 MR. EISNER: Trane. 10 MS. ARMSTRONG: Sorry, I was the wildcard 11 that accidently showed up today and stole your chair. 12 MS. HOOTMAN: You are a wildcard. We know 13 that. 14 MR. CYMBALSKY: Hey Tim, do you want to come 15 up too, since -- 16 MR. BALLO: If there's room, but if not -- 17 MS. ARMSTRONG: Yeah, there's room. 18 MR. CYMBALSKY: Okay. 19 MS. ARMSTRONG: We can fit you on that side. 20 MR. CYMBALSKY: Plenty of room. 21 MS. ARMSTRONG: Come on up, up here. 22 Thanks.

### Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 07-01-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 12 1 MR. EISNER: Okay, anything more on this 2 definition discussion? No? 3 MS. BARHYDT: So, after those questions, is 4 everybody okay with this definition? 5 Okay. 6 MS. MYERS: I just -- this is -- 7 MS. BARHYDT: Yep. 8 MS. MYERS: -- Karen Meyers with Rheem. I 9 have one more question: On a dual fuel heat pump, 10 would that fall under this definition? 11 MS. ARMSTRONG: This is Ashley from DOE. 12 One that has a back-up furnace? 13 MS. MYERS: Yes. 14 MS. ARMSTRONG: Yeah. The furnace part 15 would. 16 MS. MYERS: Yeah, it is part, but you said 17 it would rise, so the static wouldn't have a big -- 18 MS. ARMSTRONG: Correct. 19 MS. MYERS: -- effect -- 20 MS. ARMSTRONG: Correct. It's all set. 21 MS. MYERS: Okay. 22 MS. ARMSTRONG: You're all set. It's

### Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 07-01-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 13 1 standardized in the test procedure. 2 MS. BARHYDT: Okay, the same thing for 3 commercial packaged boilers; this was the definition 4 of the basic model that we had come up with last time. 5 Any questions or comments? 6 Is everybody okay with this definition? 7 MR. EISNER: No problems. Harvey? 8 MR. SACHS: The devil's in the details, and 9 as I read this, physical characteristics and 10 functional characteristics could mean, or not mean, 11 the same fuel input. 12 MS. BARHYDT: Okay. So, it says, "Having 13 the same primary energy source." That's not what 14 you're referring to? 15 MR. SACHS: The same primary energy source, 16 to me, is gas versus fuel -- natural gas versus fuel 17 oil. But, physical and functional characteristics, a 18 functional characteristic might be taken as condensing 19 versus non-condensing, or it might be taken as 200,000 20 BTU per hour versus 175,000 BTU per hour. And I'm not 21 -- there is to me, an ambiguity here, and I'm just 22 asking (a) for an explanation, or (b) if everybody

### Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 07-01-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 14 1 else understands it the same way. 2 MR. MYERS: This is Frank Myers with PVI. 3 Harvey, I think with the physical characteristics, if 4 you had a condensing versus non-condensing, that would 5 be a physical characteristic. 6 MR. SACHS: Absolutely. 7 MS. ARMSTRONG: Mike Fitzer? 8 MR. FITZER: Thanks, Frank. And I think we 9 all agree on that. The question is whether two 10 different fuel input rates is the same physical and 11 functional characteristics or not. Is a bigger burner 12 conceivably part of the same basic model? I don't 13 know the answer, I'm asking so we get clarification. 14 MS. ARMSTRONG: Okay. Go ahead you can go 15 first. 16 MS. JAKOBS: I would interpret it that it 17 would be the same -- 18 MR. EISNER: Name? She needs your name. 19 MS. JAKOBS: Oh, Diane Jakobs. We already 20 talked. 21 But, just so, a basic model would be the 22 same, so it would be like a gas furnace at a certain

### Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 07-01-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 15 1 capacity, and the capacity would be determined by 2 probably, the number of burners and heat exchanger 3 cells. And that's how I would interpret that. 4 MR. SACHS: (Inaudible). 5 MS. ARMSTRONG: It doesn't have to be. 6 MR. SACHS: No, it's not. 7 MS. JAKOBS: No. If it's -- 8 MS. ARMSTRONG: So, it's -- 9 MS. JAKOBS: Oh, go ahead. 10 MS. ARMSTRONG: This is Ashley. The way I 11 read this, it doesn't have to be. It can be. In 12 other words, you're right. This definition provides 13 flexibility. And if somebody wanted to group you know 14 a couple of discreet capacities at a nominal capacity, 15 per say, they could do it. This does allow that. 16 MR. CYMBALSKY: And rate at the lower 17 efficiency. 18 MS. ARMSTRONG: And they would rate them all 19 at the same rating, which would be the lowest. In 20 theory, it's the same, though, I mean, they -- 21 MR. SACHS: Wait, if -- Harvey Sachs again. 22 Now, I'm confused. I thought I was okay. No, I

### Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 07-01-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 16 1 didn't. John, if I'm rating it the lowest capacity -- 2 I'm sorry. I heard capacity. We're saying 3 "efficiency." So, that would generally, correspond to 4 the highest capacity and the most adverse ratio of 5 heat exchanger area, to flame. 6 MR. CYMBALSKY: Frank? 7 MR. STANONIK: Frank Stanonik, AHRI. I 8 would suggest, let's not -- let's put this into 9 context. The working group put together some very 10 good recommendations for AEDM's, which we all hope 11 will get finalized. And if that gets finalized, I 12 would say, Harvey, your concern is really not really 13 significant because what is going to happen, at least 14 in the case of commercial boilers, is what has been 15 the practice only for about 50 years, which is where 16 they will have a family of models. 17 And essentially, unless something really 18 changes, most AEDMs will look like some form of 19 interpolation or extrapolation. It will be very 20 straightforward. So, what I'm saying is, they won't 21 worry as much about whether it's a basic model, as 22 much as getting -- taking care of the family.

### Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 07-01-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 17 1 MR. SACHS: Harvey Sachs. Thanks, Frank. 2 And I'm still reminded of trust but verify. 3 MR. EISNER: Any more comments? Is 4 everybody comfortable -- except for Harvey? 5 Okay, we should go onto the next one. 6 MS. BARHYDT: Okay, same routine: commercial 7 water heaters. 8 Any concerns, any questions? 9 MR. EISNER: Everybody's comfortable with 10 this one? Okay. 11 MS. BARHYDT: Okay, commercial refrigeration 12 equipment. What we have is, a basic model means, "All 13 units of commercial refrigeration equipment 14 manufactured by one manufacturer, having the same 15 primary energy source and that have essentially 16 identical electrical, physical, and functional 17 characteristics that affect energy consumption." 18 The Department is suggesting that the 19 options and features -- and there's going to be a list 20 -- are being considered for differential treatment 21 through test procedure treatment, and/or enforcement 22 guidance, rather than by putting it into the actual

### Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 07-01-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 18 1 basic model definition. And so, are there any actual 2 -- well, there's nothing below that. 3 MS. ARMSTRONG: Yeah, we'll get to them. 4 MS. BARHYDT: Okay. 5 MS. ARMSTRONG: Let's go through the whole 6 list. 7 MS. BARHYDT: Okay. So, we'll go through 8 them one at a time. 9 MS. ARMSTRONG: Yeah. 10 MS. BARHYDT: That's why you're here. 11 MS. ARMSTRONG: That is why I'm here. 12 So, I'm going to go through each of these. 13 This is more or less the overview of what we talked 14 about on Friday for the ten minutes I was at the 15 meeting, and everybody else was at the meeting for the 16 whole time. But, we're going to come to some type of 17 general discussion as to -- or general, I guess, 18 consensus as to how these should be treated here. 19 So, for customer display -- and finally it's 20 - - the description we came up with was that some 21 customers may wish to add additional exterior signage. 22 It's outside the body of the refrigerator; it's used

### Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 07-01-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 19 1 for advertising purposes, and it's not used directly 2 to illuminate the products that the CRE is holding. 3 So, for this one, I think DOE's position 4 here is that this is a test procedure issue. In other 5 words, we will be considering either guidance through 6 the test procedure, or (inaudible) to make it clear 7 that external signage is not used for product 8 illumination, and should not be illuminated during 9 testing. Therefore, it wouldn't show up as a 10 differential in the DOE reading. 11 MR. HON: Charlie Hon, True Manufacturing. 12 Would that also include the standard stuff that's 13 built into the product every time? The headers across 14 the glass door refrigerators? 15 MS. ARMSTRONG: None of that lighting is 16 used. I mean, the headers, none of it is used for 17 product illumination. It's purely signage. 18 MR. HON: In most circumstances, that's a 19 true statement, yes. But they're integral to the 20 machinery; they're built in permanently. 21 MS. ARMSTRONG: But they would be integral, 22 so I don't think we were -- if they're integrated into

### Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 07-01-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 20 1 the machine, I don't think that's what we were 2 considering. 3 MR. HON: That's why I'm asking the 4 question. 5 MS. ARMSTRONG: They would be illuminated 6 during tests. These would have to be outside the body 7 of the cabinet, external. 8 MR. HON: Charlie Hon again. This -- a lot 9 of these are external to the cabinet. They are 10 permanently mounted on the front of the cabinet. They 11 could be removed from the cabinet without it affecting 12 any other function, but our standard product has been 13 under review since day one. 14 MS. ARMSTRONG: Okay. They're included. 15 MR. HON: So, I just want to clear that up, 16 because there are add-ons that other people will try 17 and -- additional add-ons on top, or even go as far as 18 adding video displays. And I understand that one 19 completely because they were not even thought about 20 when the regulations were passed in 2005. 21 MS. ARMSTRONG: Okay. 22 MR. HON: But they consume a lot of power.

### Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 07-01-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 21 1 MS. ARMSTRONG: Okay. 2 MR. EISNER: Comments or questions on the 3 first one? 4 MR. SHEBIK: Ron Shebik with Hussmann. Just 5 one question to clarify; so, with the example that 6 Charlie was explaining where you have, I call it a 7 sign panel, it's in front of the case above the 8 refrigerated area. That would be part of the test, or 9 would not be part of the test? As opposed to -- 10 MS. ARMSTRONG: It would be. 11 MR. SHEBIK: -- the lighting that's on the 12 side? 13 Would be? Okay. But lighting that's on the 14 side of the case, or additional lighting that's 15 specifically customer-driven would not be part of the 16 test, because it's not integral. 17 MS. ARMSTRONG: So, it's not location of the 18 lighting. Front versus side, that's the 19 distinguishing factor here. It's whether it's 20 additional exterior signage, completely separate from 21 the body that's added for advertising purposes, not 22 for product illumination at the request of, I guess,

### Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 07-01-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 22 1 your individual customers. 2 MR. SHEBIK: Okay. 3 MS. ARMSTRONG: So, somebody puts their like 4 name on the side of the cabinet, and it's integrated 5 into the cabinet. Just because it's on the side 6 doesn't mean it wouldn't be counted. 7 MR. SHEBIK: Right. 8 MR. HON: So, this is Charlie Hon, again. 9 MS. ARMSTRONG: We can refine this. 10 MR. SHEBIK: Yeah. 11 MS. ARMSTRONG: I mean, you guys can -- 12 MR. SHEBIK: Right. 13 MS. ARMSTRONG: -- suggest language to 14 refine this that shows how to differentiate these two. 15 MR. HON: This is getting into -- 16 MR. SHEBIK: It's a minor point, but -- 17 MR. HON: It is a major point, if we get 18 into certain consumption. 19 MR. SHEBIK: Well, I know where you're 20 coming from, so go ahead. 21 MR. HON: Yeah. 22 MS. ARMSTRONG: Um-hmm.

### Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 07-01-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 23 1 MR. HON: Okay, we -- Charlie Hon. We have 2 a customer switch -- asked for additional lighting to 3 be put on top of the cabinet as basically, a crown on 4 top of the cabinet, which can have a very large amount 5 of illumination into it. We also have a customer 6 switch. We'll request a plug, so they can plug into 7 the unit, and tap off the main power cord. Or, such 8 things as a video display, which is put on top of the 9 unit and screwed on top of the cabinet to you know 10 give you a full -- long commercials, effectively, 11 playing over and over again. 12 I'm just trying to find out where the cutoff 13 point on this combination is, because we make cabinets 14 with lights above the door, lights on the sides, all 15 of which have been under regulation for years, and 16 we're running into more and more add-on lights. 17 MS. ARMSTRONG: So, can you suggest some 18 language that would distinguish add-on versus those -- 19 MR. HON: That's the problem is that they're 20 - - I don't know how to distinguish them, because when 21 they're customer driven into the factory, they become 22 integral to the product. We install them as part of

### Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 07-01-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 24 1 the product build. 2 MR. SHEBIK: Ron Shebik of Hussmann. 3 Charlie, if the sign -- I mean, forget about the extra 4 stuff. 5 MR. HON: Right. 6 MR. SHEBIK: You look at the standard sign 7 panel, which is kind of the length between the two 8 options. If the sign panel -- you know what I'm 9 talking about on a GDM case -- is excluded, because 10 it's not integral to lighting the product, would that 11 solve the problem? 12 MR. HON: I don't know how that cannot be 13 integral to the product that's on every case that goes 14 out that way. 15 The problems come with these continual add16 ons. How far do you go? Because we make cases with 17 lights above the door, you go down to Dunkin' 18 Doughnuts, you'll see some of them. And we also make 19 a similar case with lights down the side, where we put 20 an illuminated side panel on each side of the unit, 21 along with over the door. And those have always been 22 listed. We have them in our list of products in

### Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 07-01-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 25 1 California. And it will be on the DOE list. 2 But then, you get into others where they 3 start going up with -- eventually, you come to a point 4 where, where do we draw the line, because we just keep 5 adding, and adding, and adding, and that's just the 6 nature of marketing. But when does it cross the line 7 to be removed from the list versus standard product, 8 which is customer driven? 9 MR. SACHS: This is Harvey Sachs again. And 10 there's probably no one more naive about these 11 products than I am in the room. But it seems to me, 12 from the reasons for this entire discussion, if it's 13 inside the case, it not only has -- that illumination 14 not only has its own power, but the parasitic on the 15 refrigeration side. If it's outside the case, it's a 16 different beast. So, I'm wondering if the guidance 17 might be that if it's inside the refrigerated space, 18 it is to be on during the test cycle. 19 If it's outside the refrigerated cabinet, it 20 is exempt. Now, I'm just offering that as a straw man 21 from a naposition. 22 MR. BAUMAN: This is Jeff Bauman from

### Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 07-01-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 26 1 National. I'll bring one point in. I think I agree 2 with Charlie in that I think the tough point here is 3 going to be to define what is integral to the cabinet 4 versus not integral. I would think for signage, you 5 would want it, from your perspective to be considered 6 because that lighting -- you want them to use 7 efficient lighting as part of that product, too. 8 LED lighting, or things that, you know, we 9 come across that if you didn't have any kind of 10 standards or regulations on that part of it that's an 11 integral part of the cabinet, you could tend to get 12 less efficient than you need to be on it. So, I think 13 it might help drive that type of innovation of things, 14 again, if it's an integral part of the cabinet. To 15 me, that's the tough part for you guys. And as 16 Charlie is saying, is defining where the integral part 17 of the cabinet is versus non-integral. 18 Another whole part that I'm not sure -- Ron, 19 you're more familiar with -- is I know one of the 20 items that's been discussed also is like dry good 21 showing for open-type cases with lighting. Is, that - 22 - and maybe you can talk that a little bit better, how

### Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 07-01-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 27 1 that may or may not tie in with this. 2 MALE VOICE: You can make it part of a 3 standby and off power. 4 MR. SHEBIK: This is Ron Shebik of Hussmann. 5 I think the dry goods is going to be -- is a separate 6 discussion, but what I was going to suggest to 7 Charlie, what if the wording was such that external 8 lighting in addition to the manufacture sign panel? 9 Because looking at your cases in general, you know you 10 have a standard sign panel that could be applied to 11 any different customer. Would that wording make it 12 more- clear? 13 MR. HON: Charlie Hon, again. The problem 14 is, Ron, with different customers requiring different 15 power strips behind the light panel 16 MR. SHEBIK: Okay. 17 MR. HON: We have some customers who are now 18 that they've discovered how wonderful LEDs are -- they 19 can put more behind a light panel and actually go 20 negative on power, because they're putting so many 21 behind the light panel that it really looks really, 22 really nice. But instead of reducing the total power

### Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 07-01-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 28 1 consumption with the same wattage of light coming out, 2 they're going as high as doubling the power 3 consumption by adding triple the lighting. 4 So, I don't -- this is why I'm getting 5 concerned about this whole -- this is just a -- I 6 don't know how to explain what's going to happen here, 7 if we don't have a really, really, really clear 8 definition of this product. 9 MR. SACHS: Harvey Sachs. Charlie, just for 10 clarification, they are doubling the unit's total 11 energy consumption, or lighting consumption? 12 MR. HON: Charlie Hon. They will double the 13 wattage of the lighting illumination, which actually 14 goes negative on the power consumption by doubling the 15 wattage, even though, it's a more efficient system, 16 you're putting more light out, but you're also 17 consuming total power at a higher level. 18 MS. BARHYDT: Again, do you have any 19 recommendation about how to draw that line? You know 20 these products better. 21 MR. HON: Charlie Hon. The problem is is 22 everything we define then becomes a loophole, because

### Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 07-01-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 29 1 if they say all of it must be through the same power 2 cord, all we have to do is upgrade the power cord and 3 the amperage rating on the unit, to allow for a 4 greater draw, and we can put all kinds of things on 5 there. We could put a 55-inch T.V. set across the top 6 of it, and still pass, because we don't have it turned 7 on. That's what I'm trying to say, is that I don't 8 know how to define this because if it's integral to 9 the product, it is going to be a major -- it's always 10 going to draw power, almost always, unless it's on 11 some sort of a shutdown circuit. 12 If we do not do that, we get into really 13 fuzzy questions: "How do you power them?" Again, we 14 can circumvent the law or the regulations very easily, 15 all by the way we wire things. All we'd have to do is 16 change the amp rating on the plug, and away we go. We 17 also don't want to get into an area where we've been 18 before because what would be considered integral 19 lighting, there are different levels of integral 20 lighting on a single unit. We have built them for 21 years, and years, and years, and they were all under 22 the exact California regulations under existing

### Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 07-01-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 30 1 regulations. And we've always kept them well within 2 the bounds of the regulations. 3 But where do we cut the line? I'm concerned 4 because I don't understand how to -- I do not know how 5 to write a regulation, or a proposal that says a, b, 6 c, d, are okay, e, f, g, h, are not okay, because 7 every customer has a different wish list. 8 MR. EISNER: Could we go back to the prior 9 slide, and see the basic -- 10 MS. BARHYDT: Um-hmm. 11 MR. EISNER: -- definition again? I mean, 12 aren't we talking about the purpose of the equipment? 13 If I have an electrical cord coming out to 14 run the piece of equipment that you're building to 15 refrigerate something, or to cool something, that's 16 the purpose of the equipment. If the customer says, 17 you know, "It would look pretty in my store if the 18 power cord had little light diodes on it, and 19 everybody could see it winding through the room." 20 That has nothing to do with the purpose of the 21 equipment, so I'm not sure why this group should be 22 figuring out how we can make this more energy-

### Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 07-01-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 31 1 efficient, when the customer wants to add little 2 lights to make it look pretty, as opposed to cool. 3 MR. KOJAK: This is Mike Kojak with UL. 4 Couldn't we put like you know like a basic -- the 5 basic case that you make has x amount of lights in it, 6 and then make that the threshold, so anything that the 7 customer wants above that is exempt from this, because 8 you know that's all add-on things from your basic 9 model, or the model that you're testing with the 10 lights that you normally put on it? 11 MS. BARHYDT: So, what DOE is proposing to 12 do on all of these is to deal with it through either 13 enforcement guidance or through test procedure, the 14 full notice and comment test procedure process. And 15 so, I mean, this sounds to me like something that we 16 really need more than sitting around the table 17 discussing for a little while. And so, I mean, the 18 Department is willing to commit to an enforcement 19 policy that we would not be pursuing a fully-loaded20 out piece of commercial refrigeration equipment, with 21 all of the bells and whistles, and everything that 22 somebody might possibly want to add-on in the short

### Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 07-01-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 32 1 term, until the line is clear. 2 Would that work? 3 MR. HON: Charlie Hon. That's very 4 reasonable. I thank you for that, because I don't 5 want to be in the middle of one of these where we're 6 in the middle of it, or we're pursuing someone else's 7 failures for the same reasons. 8 MS. BARHYDT: Yeah. 9 MR. HON: I don't want to get into anything 10 like that, and I think that there are some 11 definitions, which when we get into the definition, if 12 we go to adding and adding and adding, we're including 13 new base models. But the problem is the test 14 procedure. When do they get turned on, and when do 15 they get turned off? 16 MS. BARHYDT: Right 17 MR. HON: Because if -- 18 MS. BARHYDT: And we agree that needs to be 19 clear. 20 MR. HON: -- if they were all included, then 21 everything fits just fine because it falls into the 22 base model concept. Because every base model, because

### Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 07-01-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 33 1 it would have more features therefore, not identical 2 electrical would require more or different 3 information. But until that's clear, I don't want to 4 be put in a corner like that. 5 MS. BARHYDT: Okay. 6 MR. STARR: Louis Starr with NEEA. You 7 know, perhaps one way is a lighting power density, 8 similar to what they do in codes, but maybe based upon 9 the volume of the refrigeration cases. So, you would 10 have a certain amount of allowance that would set the 11 base line of what the allowable power allowance would 12 be for lighting. And then, that makes it so 13 everybody's equal in that amount of signage. It also 14 will restrict the amount because once you do that 15 there's only so much lighting you can -- you rate your 16 equipment at that. It would also force the -- prevent 17 the addition of other things on there because you 18 wouldn't be rated by the size of your power cords and 19 some other things like that. 20 So, it might be one possible consideration. 21 MS. BARHYDT: So, the short-term enforcement 22 policy, longer-term test procedure clarification;

### Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 07-01-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 34 1 sound like a good way to go? 2 MR. HON: Charlie Hon. I agree. That would 3 be wonderful. We'd have time to get everything de4 bugged. I think that the Department doesn't 5 understand the full ramifications of some of these 6 add-ons, because they can become very, very big power 7 hogs. 8 MR. EISNER: Do we want to add something? 9 MS. BARHYDT: Hmm? 10 MR. EISNER: Do we want to add some language 11 to this, so this -- 12 MS. BARHYDT: So -- 13 MR. EISNER: -- (inaudible) agree to? 14 MS. BARHYDT: -- I think what we're going to 15 try to do is draft up an actual enforcement policy 16 that people can see. 17 So, condensate pan heaters. 18 MS. ARMSTRONG: Yeah, so DOE's position is 19 that condensate pan heaters should be on during the 20 test period. I realize that there are some questions 21 about what water levels may be used, just so that to 22 normalize the testing, so that we may need to issue

### Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 07-01-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 35 1 some clarification on the testing procedure itself. 2 But, the pan heaters, period, should be on during 3 tests. We plan to issue guidance on how to test, the 4 melt water issue, to address that. 5 Okay? 6 MR. EISNER: Is everybody okay? 7 MR. SHEBIK: Ron Shebik with Hussmann. My 8 only question with that is are you going to 9 differentiate between a self-contained case that may 10 use heated condensate pans as typical design, as 11 opposed to a remote case, which is designed to drain 12 the water to a floor drain. 13 It will have a -- it will be the rarity, 14 where you would have a heated condensate pan. 15 MS. ARMSTRONG: Should we need to address 16 them separately, we could. 17 MR. SHEBIK: Okay. Because that was one of 18 the discussions we had in our previous meeting, was 19 that on the remote cases that would be an atypical 20 design where you'd have a heated condensate pan, 21 normally, because the customer doesn't have the floor 22 drain readily available.

### Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 07-01-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 36 1 MS. ARMSTRONG: It would still need to be 2 on. 3 MR. SHEBIK: It would need to be on? 4 MS. ARMSTRONG: Um-hmm. That is our going5 in position. 6 MR. SHEBIK: Okay. 7 MS. ARMSTRONG: Yep. 8 MR. SHEBIK: Okay. 9 MS. ARMSTRONG: Okay. 10 The next one is condensate pumps. We look 11 at these as just another way to remove condensate, and 12 so just as with heaters, they should also be on during 13 tests. And we can issue test procedure guidance or 14 clarification, somehow that makes it clear that 15 condensate pumps also be on during the tests. 16 MR. SACHS: Harvey Sachs. Are the 17 condensate pumps on CRE typically, 100 percent duty 18 cycle? So, if you're not specifying -- 19 MS. ARMSTRONG: That's the issue. 20 MR. SACHS: -- temperature and humidity, I 21 don't know how it's cycling. 22 MS. ARMSTRONG: Do you want to?

### Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 07-01-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 37 1 MR. HON: Charlie Hon. The test procedure 2 gives you 55 percent relative humidity, plus or minus 3 5 percent. 4 MS. ARMSTRONG: Correct. 5 MR. HON: The temperature is 75 degrees 6 Fahrenheit; plus or minus 2 degrees Fahrenheit. 7 MR. SACHS: (Inaudible.) 8 MR. HON: It's -- but, unfortunately -- 9 Charlie Hon, again. Unfortunately, due to the test 10 rooms controlling humidity more than within 5 percent, 11 is about as accurate as we can really do it. So, 12 that's the problem with it. 13 MR. SACHS: Harvey Sachs. Thank you. 14 MS. ARMSTRONG: So, I think what the -- 15 MR. EISNER: Any questions? 16 MS. ARMSTRONG: -- condensate removal, I 17 mean, Harvey, you hit the issue on the head. The 18 issue is how, the methodology, which we're going to 19 heave to deal with through the Test Procedure Rule not 20 through here. Our clarification here is that they 21 should be operational. And then, the question of 22 normalizing the methodology, we will need to address.

### Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 07-01-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 38 1 MR. EISNER: Is everybody comfortable with 2 this one for now? 3 MS. ARMSTRONG: Okay, so the next one, we 4 had a question about anti-sweat heaters that are in 5 the doors and whether they're operational during tests 6 or not. 7 DOE's position is that they should be 8 operational during tests. Those that are on or off, 9 and do not have individual controls, should be 10 switched on. If a controller is present, it should be 11 utilized. So, if a manufacturer goes to the trouble to 12 integrate a controller that you know controls when 13 it's operational, depending on the type of conditions, 14 then they should be put in a mode where the controller 15 is utilized. But otherwise, if it's just on or off, 16 they should be active during tests. 17 MR. HON: Charlie Hon. You're saying an 18 on/off switch would have to be on -- 19 MS. ARMSTRONG: Correct 20 MR. HON: -- but any variable sensing 21 devices could be in -- 22 MS. ARMSTRONG: Absolutely.

### Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 07-01-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 39 1 MR. HON: -- Okay. 2 MS. ARMSTRONG: Well, the idea would be the 3 variable sensing devices. Encourage. 4 MR. SACHS: Harvey Sachs. Is the LGE 5 algorithm allowed? 6 MS. ARMSTRONG: No comment. 7 MR. EISNER: Is everybody all right with 8 this one? 9 Okay, the next one? 10 MS. ARMSTRONG: So, the next one is UV 11 lights. And so, our position on this one is that we 12 will issue a guidance that UV lights do not need to be 13 turned on for tests. But you do have to have an 14 identical model available for testing that does not 15 have the UV lights on them, or that it can be switched 16 off. So, this would be an enforcement guidance. 17 MR. EISNER: Questions? Concerns? 18 Is everybody comfortable? 19 Excellent. 20 MS. ARMSTRONG: Okay. These have to do 21 with, as I understand it -- 22 COURT REPORTER: The microphone.

### Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 07-01-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 40 1 MS. ARMSTRONG: Sorry. These have to do 2 with illuminated temperature displays and alarms that 3 are integrated into the system. The idea here would 4 be that the displays and alarms should be engaged 5 during tests, but they won't be alarming. 6 Does that make sense? So, in other words, 7 we don't expect the alarm to go off and that kind of 8 stuff, but we also don't expect those things to be 9 disabled. They should be enabled, but they don't need 10 to be like I don't know what the better word would -- 11 alarmed, for lack of a better term. 12 MR. EISNER: Any questions? Concerns? 13 Okay. 14 MS. ARMSTRONG: Condenser flour filters, our 15 position here is that filters would be removed during 16 testing, and we would issue guidance stating such. 17 MR. EISNER: Any questions or comments? 18 Concerns? 19 Okay, next one. 20 MS. ARMSTRONG: Okay. Refrigeration System 21 Security Covers. These are straps or other devices 22 that are used to secure the condensing unit, as we

### Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 07-01-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 41 1 understand this. They would be removed for testing, 2 DOE'S position. 3 MR. EISNER: Same thing? Anything? 4 Okay, next issue. 5 MS. ARMSTRONG: So, with night curtains and 6 covers, our position is that they are fully addressed 7 by the test procedure, as it's written now. And if 8 you don't believe that's the case, then you can apply 9 for a waiver, but DOE has stated its position pretty 10 clearly on these, so you're going to have to 11 articulate why we should change our position, or why 12 your product operates differently than that position. 13 MR. EISNER: Questions? 14 MS. ARMSTRONG: So, we don't believe any 15 type of guidance is needed on this one, or 16 clarification. 17 Go ahead. 18 MR. STANONIK: Frank Stanonik. 19 COURT REPORTER: Can you go to a microphone, 20 sir? 21 MR. STANONIK: Frank Stanonik. For those of 22 us who don't know, so how it's covered right now?

### Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 07-01-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 42 1 Does it make it a new model if you have one of these? 2 MS. ARMSTRONG: Does it make it a new model 3 just because you have a night curtain? Not 4 necessarily. 5 MR. STANONIK: But, it could? 6 MS. ARMSTRONG: It could with the new test 7 procedure. I don't believe it could during the 8 current test procedure. 9 MR. STANONIK: Okay. 10 MS. ARMSTRONG: Yeah, the amended one. I 11 believe that's correct. That's off the top of my 12 head, though, so if there are questions about that you 13 should follow up, because I'm three weeks in here, so 14 I'm a little sleepy. 15 MR. EISNER: Anybody have anything they want 16 to raise? 17 MALE VOICE: (Inaudible.) 18 MR. EISNER: That's the energy efficiency? 19 MALE VOICE: Do you know who makes the unit 20 in this building? We've got them all here, why don't 21 we? 22 MR. EISNER: Are there any questions on this

### Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 07-01-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 43 1 one? 2 MR. SHEBIK: Yeah, this is Ron Shebik of 3 Hussmann. When you referred -- back to night curtain. 4 When you refer to the current procedure, you're 5 talking about the one, the ASHRAE procedure that's 6 just coming out? Would that be correct? 7 MS. ARMSTRONG: So, regardless of what's 8 coming out of ASHRAE, until DOE goes through the 9 process of evaluating it, and then either adopting it 10 or revising it, et cetera, et cetera, it's just the 11 DOE procedure that we care about. 12 MR. SHEBIK: Okay. 13 MS. ARMSTRONG: Which, is 70 -- 14 MR. HON: Charlie Hon. 15 MS. ARMSTRONG: -- Yeah. 16 MR. HON: The DOE procedure calls for, if 17 you have an open case, six hours of closed curtain -- 18 MS. ARMSTRONG: Correct. 19 MR. HON: -- and -- 20 MR. SHEBIK: Um-hmm. 21 MR. HON: -- the rest 18 hours of open on an 22 open case.

### Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 07-01-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 44 1 MR. SHEBIK: Right. 2 MR. HON: If it's integral, if it's 3 installed integral to the unit and shipped as part of 4 the unit. 5 MR. SHEBIK: So, the new proposed ASHRAE 6 procedure, will that be in agreement with this? 7 MR. HON: The proposed ASHRAE procedure will 8 not be in agreement with this. The proposed ASHRAE is 9 calling for eight hours to be paralleling the door 10 openings process. But that's -- the Department of 11 Energy has every right to modify -- 12 MR. SHEBIK: Um-hmm. 13 MR. HON: -- their test procedure from ours. 14 MR. SHEBIK: Okay. 15 MR. EISNER: Okay, no questions. 16 The next one. 17 MS. ARMSTRONG: Okay. 18 The next one, grill options. So, special 19 grills that are used to direct air flow, DOE is 20 considering issuing guidance that if present non21 standard grills, so specialty grills, would be removed 22 for testing.

### Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 07-01-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 45 1 MR. EISNER: Any questions? 2 MR. HON: Charlie Hon, True Manufacturing. 3 "Removed for testing" because that could be either 4 very positive, or very negative, on a test. Grills 5 quite often direct consistent air into an out of the 6 coils. Other times, they're a big restrictor, so it 7 could be very positive or a negative on a test. 8 Sorry. 9 MS. ARMSTRONG: We've got to pick a position 10 here. 11 MR. HON: That's why I'm asking the 12 question. 13 MS. ARMSTRONG: I was -- 14 MR. HON: If they're taken off completely, 15 most units will perform better than the other way. 16 So, if you're doing non-standard grills -- because the 17 standard grills would be included in the test. 18 MS. ARMSTRONG: Correct. Standard grills 19 would -- 20 MR. HON: Right. 21 MS. ARMSTRONG: -- always be included. So, 22 our position here is just non-standard grills would be

### Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 07-01-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 46 1 excluded. 2 MR. HON: Charlie Hon, again. The question 3 is, under non-standard grill conditions sometimes we 4 have very directive heat. We're trying to direct the 5 heat in a certain pattern. And the test procedure, as 6 it exists today, has no closure around the unit, so it 7 allows for completely open air, while quite often 8 specific tests or directional grills are designed 9 because the unit is being under a counter, or trapped 10 inside of some other, which is a very big strain on 11 the system. 12 So, I just wanted to verify that's what 13 we're looking at because 95 percent of the time, at 14 least, it may be 99 percent of the time, we will see 15 an improvement on energy efficiency, from what you 16 would see in the field. 17 MR. EISNER: Any other questions? Issues? 18 Okay, the next item. 19 MS. ARMSTRONG: Okay, coated coils. 20 So, the Department is willing to consider 21 issuing some type of guidance for coated coils, 22 however, we're going to turn it around on you guys,

### Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 07-01-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 47 1 because we need a definitive decision that 2 differentiates coated coils that need to be, as I 3 understand it, a certain thickness, or a certain 4 minimum thickness, to really stand up in corrosive 5 environments, versus those that have a minimum coating 6 and are really part of your standard practice. 7 So, we're willing to consider some type of 8 clarification for coated coils, as long as there could 9 be some distinguishing definition that can be written 10 about what a coated coil really is. So we ask you guys 11 for that input for us to consider. 12 MR. EISNER: Any suggestions? Any comments? 13 Did we take too much time off between 14 meetings? 15 MS. HOOTMAN: I assume you're going to want 16 that -- 17 MS. ARMSTRONG: We're not -- I did what I 18 thought was the easier product type first. Ease back 19 into this. But your assumption might be correct. 20 MS. BARHYDT: And you don't have to answer 21 right here on the spot. 22 MS. ARMSTRONG: Yeah, yeah.

### Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 07-01-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 48 1 MS. BARHYDT: Give it some thought and you 2 can get back to us. 3 MR. HON: I'm Charlie Hon. A question for 4 you: Are you looking for some? Because coated coils 5 can do anything from a very thin, very minimal 6 protective coating, an eco-type coating, all the way 7 up to where you redesign the entire coil, put a steal 8 coil in it with a 10 ml thick coating on top of it in 9 severe environments. 10 Do you -- are you looking for something that 11 covers 95 percent of the work, or something that 12 covers the worst case? 13 MS. ARMSTRONG: Well, keep in mind, if we 14 were to issue some type of guidance saying, either 15 "coated coils don't need to be" -- like "truly coated 16 coils that meet the definition don't need to be 17 tested," you have to have a standard one offered, to 18 get the exception. 19 So, if your standard offering is some 20 minimum type of coating, or something really you know 21 thin, that should not be considered an exclusion, in 22 our mind, or considered for not testing. That is your

### Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 07-01-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 49 1 standard offering. But, we understand that there 2 could be different levels of coating and there needs - 3 - the market necessitates different levels of coating. 4 And so, what we are asking from you is, how 5 do you differentiate, or how should the Department 6 differentiate between a standard coating that's every 7 day wear-and-tear versus one that's really needed for 8 a corrosive environment, whatever that corrosive 9 environment may be. So, I don't think 95 percent 10 would be the right number. 11 MR. STANONIK: Frank Stanonik, ACHRI. 12 Ashley just said something that was a little 13 confusing. You said something about a standard 14 coating that was there for everyday wear-and-tear, and 15 as you said this -- you know, addressing when it's an 16 option. If it's standard, right, then it would get 17 tested. 18 MS. ARMSTRONG: Absolutely. That's what I'm 19 saying. I need a way to differentiate. I mean, 20 that's still in my mind, a coated coil. It has a 21 coating on it; right? So, how do we differentiate 22 that standard, what you just said, from something that

### Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 07-01-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 50 1 is different and has maybe a thicker coating, or a 2 different type of coating? 3 MR. STANONIK: But, okay, but wouldn't the 4 manufacturer, again, if he's indicating on model x 5 that this -- you know, this model comes with coated 6 coils, or whatever -- I mean, that's the standard. If 7 he indicates that model x can be purchased without 8 uncoated coils, and then coated coils are an option -- 9 MS. ARMSTRONG: So, as I understand it, they 10 ask from you guys for the Department, is to consider 11 writing -- either enforcing a guidance that says, "We 12 will not test units with coated coils." 13 MR. STANONIK: Right. 14 MS. ARMSTRONG: And if I say that regardless 15 of whether it's standard or not, I've said I will not 16 test them. So, if the only option someone's offering 17 is coated coils, then that's not fair. 18 So, what we're trying to do is 19 differentiating the two; right? There are -- we 20 understand there are reasons you really need coated 21 coils -- 22 MR. STANONIK: Right.

### Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 07-01-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 51 1 MS. ARMSTRONG: -- and they impact -- 2 there's no doubt about it, they impact the 3 performance. So, we're saying, help us understand 4 what standard -- what may be a standard coating, a 5 standard offering, because we understand that in some 6 cases that is the standard. And how we could write an 7 exclusion or enforcement guidance or test procedure 8 guidance to accommodate you know the more corrosive 9 type of coatings that would have a larger detrimental 10 impact on the efficiency. 11 Apparently, I still confused you. Sorry. 12 MR. CYMBALSKY: But it's enough that he went 13 to sit down. 14 MR. SACHS: Ashley? 15 Ashley? 16 MS. ARMSTRONG: Yes, sir? 17 MR. SACHS: Harvey Sachs. And I guess the 18 issue, to me, is the performance degradation. If a 19 manufacturer can show that heat transfer is 20 decremented by x percent with that coating, then it's 21 exempt from testing. 22 Now, that's very much a performance one, and

### Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 07-01-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 52 1 we can argue about whether it's 1 percent, 5 percent, 2 or 25 percent, but would that be a whole lot easier 3 than getting into which is a real epoxy and which is 4 an oxide-only? 5 MS. ARMSTRONG: It could be -- like I said, 6 that was our turnaround question to the industry. We 7 are definitely open to considering it. We think 8 there's merit there, but we would need help in 9 defining how you differentiate a coated coil, how you 10 define them. 11 MR. SACHS: Would that work for you guys? 12 MR. SHEBIK: Ron Shebik of Hussmann. I can 13 speak for us because I'm familiar with our system, but 14 if you have a standard -- you know, your standard bomb 15 has a coated coil that's your standard. That's what 16 you offer on every case. If you've got an additional 17 coating that's for exclusive environments, that will 18 be like a kit option. That would be an add-on, 19 something different as -- 20 I mean, is that a simple way to define this? 21 MS. ARMSTRONG: Absolutely. 22 MR. SHEBIK: Does that work --

### Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 07-01-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 53 1 MS. ARMSTRONG: It could be. 2 MR. SHEBIK: -- for other manufacturers? 3 MS. ARMSTRONG: We just need a way to know - 4 - I mean, what we didn't want to say is "Coated coils 5 are excluded" because we under -- like you just 6 explained. Some of them are absolutely standard. So, 7 we need a way of differentiating, and you guys know 8 your product offering the best, far better than we do. 9 So, we are asking for your help with that. 10 MR. SHEBIK: Okay. 11 MR. SACHS: So, would that work for you, 12 Charlie? 13 MR. HON: Charlie Hon. We will have to look 14 at this very carefully, because a majority of the 15 places where we would expect coated coils to be 16 applied are standard product and they are designed 17 because of the type of product that's normally put 18 into them. The service over a counter is where a 19 majority of coated coils are used, in our market. So, 20 that's pretty much a given that they're in there. 21 But, we do sell some because people want lower power 22 consumption. We do sell a few that do not have coated

### Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 07-01-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 54 1 coils in them, as a separate, basically, a separate 2 model. 3 But by putting aluminum fin condensers in 4 there -- I mean, evaporators in there -- you end up 5 with a different product nature completely. 6 MR. EISNER: Okay, next one. 7 MS. ARMSTRONG: So, we're hoping to get 8 input from you guys, so if you guys could send us 9 something, that would be great. 10 So, the next one -- we just had a question 11 come up on Friday about internal secondary coolant 12 circuits. And we just wanted to clarify that we 13 believe the existing test procedure provides a method 14 of tests for these, and they just should be treated as 15 standard direct expansion units when tested, period. 16 They're not excluded. They don't get an exemption. 17 And this is how you test them. Okay? 18 MR. EISNER: Is that okay? 19 MS. ARMSTRONG: So, that one's already 20 addressed by the existing regs. 21 So, the next one that came up was wedge 22 cases. And we do describe the treatment of wedge cases

### Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 07-01-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 55 1 in the CFR already. It's in 431.66, if anyone wants 2 to know where it is. However, we understand that some 3 wedge cases may be, their refrigeration systems may 4 either be undersized or they may be utilizing their 5 refrigeration systems on the units to the right and/or 6 the left of them. So, if you feel that -- right now, 7 the test procedure requires that the wedge, be tested 8 individually. It must meet the standards 9 individually. 10 So, if you do not believe that's 11 representative of your wedge cases' use that the test 12 procedure is not -- you need to come get a waiver. 13 That's the best way we can deal with it now. That's 14 the now-term fix. The long-term fix is that we could 15 investigate testing them a different way in an open 16 test procedure rule, if they should be -- you know, if 17 we should consider testing them you know as a -- more 18 like a system. But that's now the existing provisions 19 work. 20 Okay? 21 You can come get a waiver, though, and that 22 waiver could -- as part of that waiver you could ask

### Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 07-01-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 56 1 for them to be tested in a different manner, if the 2 existing test procedure is unrepresentative. 3 MR. SHEBIK: Ron Shebik with Hussmann. But, 4 not excluded? You're saying they'll still be tested, 5 even if they're not designed to operate without the 6 parent case? They would still have to be tested -- 7 MS. ARMSTRONG: So, you're -- 8 MR. SHEBIK: -- tested in some manner? 9 MS. ARMSTRONG: -- fix there is, if they're 10 not designed to operate without the parent case, and 11 our test procedure requires that they be tested 12 individually, without the parent case, you will come 13 get a waiver. You will come request the Department to 14 consider a waiver -- 15 MR. SHEBIK: Um-hmm. 16 MS. ARMSTRONG: -- from the test procedure, 17 for your unit to be tested with a parent case. 18 MR. SHEBIK: Okay. 19 MS. ARMSTRONG: But that does not exclude 20 them from the standards. The standards, they would 21 still have to meet on an individual basis. The test 22 method could -- we could consider a different test

### Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 07-01-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 57 1 method. 2 MR. SHEBIK: Okay. 3 MS. ARMSTRONG: That's the near-term fix. 4 MR. SHEBIK: All right. 5 MS. ARMSTRONG: The long-term fix would be 6 we would need to reevaluate them in an Open Notice and 7 Comment Rulemaking about how wedge cases should be 8 tested. 9 MR. SHEBIK: Okay. I'll throw out one last 10 comment. That's a huge burden on the manufacturer to 11 build two separate cases, in addition to a wedge. Not 12 to mention the space requirement to test this. 13 MS. ARMSTRONG: Yeah, I'm not -- 14 MR. SHEBIK: You need a very large room. 15 MS. ARMSTRONG: -- unfortunately, we are 16 very clear in the regs about how wedge cases are 17 subject to standards. And it's on an individual 18 basis. 19 MR. SHEBIK: Right. And that's the problem 20 as some wedges aren't designed to operate by 21 themselves. They don't have the capacity. 22 MS. ARMSTRONG: I get it. I'm giving you

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Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 07-01-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 58 1 the best fix -- 2 MR. SHEBIK: Okay. 3 MS. ARMSTRONG: -- we can at this point. 4 MR. SHEBIK: Right. 5 MR. AMRANE: Karim Amrane, HRI. I think 6 maybe to take away from the discussion is maybe a fix 7 to the current regulations that -- do we -- there's a 8 rulemaking ongoing, right, on commercial 9 refrigeration? Maybe there's a way -- there would be a 10 way here to fix that because I think it's an issue. 11 MS. ARMSTRONG: I mean, like I said, any 12 fixes to what we're very clear on, would need to go 13 through Notice and Comment Rule. We can't take them 14 away. We can't take away coverage. They're on the 15 books. But what we could do is fix the position going 16 forward. The short-term fix for compliance with 17 existing standards, though, is the test procedure 18 waiver. 19 MR. AMRANE: Right. 20 MS. ARMSTRONG: So. 21 MR. EISNER: Okay, next issue? 22 MS. ARMSTRONG: Thank you, Brenda.

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Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 07-01-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 59 1 Okay. Misting systems: As we understand 2 these are like dispensing water systems to maintain 3 quality of products that they are displaying, more or 4 less. We will consider test procedure guidance 5 issuing that they should be inactive during tests. 6 So, in other words, you do not have to have the 7 misting system on during the test. 8 MR. EISNER: Any concerns? 9 Okay, next issue. 10 MS. ARMSTRONG: All right. 11 Air purifiers, this is the same thing, to 12 remove contaminants from the air. We also will 13 consider issuing guidance to indicate that air 14 purifiers should not be active during tests. 15 MR. EISNER: Is there anything on this one? 16 MR. HON: Charlie Hon. Would that include - 17 - some of these have a HEPA-type filter in place -- 18 removal of the filter, the same as we did in the 19 flower? 20 MS. BARHYDT: Yeah; the general idea is to 21 remove the filter. So, whether it's for a flower or 22 it's for air purification, either way.

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Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 07-01-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 60 1 MS. ARMSTRONG: Okay. The next one, general 2 purpose outlets. Just general purpose outlets used to 3 power non-standard accessories, so that somebody wants 4 -- should not be used during tests. 5 So, in other words, they're present, they're 6 integral, but they shouldn't be energized. I mean no 7 one should be plugged into them; nothing should be 8 plugged into them during a test. 9 MR. EISNER: Any concerns? 10 Okay, next issue. 11 MS. ARMSTRONG: Crankcase heaters, our 12 option here, our DOE's position here is that they 13 should be active during tests. If they have a control 14 scheme on them, that should be active as well. So, 15 they should be active in a manner that's consistent 16 with the way they're used in the field. So, if they 17 only come on at certain conditions, then they would 18 only be triggered if those conditions arise in the 19 test procedure. 20 However, if they're on all the time by 21 default, if it's an unregulated crankcase heater, 22 Kareem's favorite topic, then it would be on during

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Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 07-01-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 61 1 tests. 2 MR. EISNER: Any concerns? 3 Okay, next issue. 4 MS. ARMSTRONG: Interior/exterior liners, 5 our opinion here is that the thermal impact of any 6 type of liners will be captured by the test procedure 7 already. 8 So, there's no clarification needed here. 9 If you vary your material and it changes, you know -- 10 if it changes the rating -- if you vary -- if you have 11 multiple liners for the same unit, and it changes the 12 rating, you can either group them as one, as the least 13 efficient, or you can you know rate them individually. 14 It's up to you. Okay? 15 MR. EISNER: Next issue. 16 MS. ARMSTRONG: So that's it -- 17 MR. EISNER: That's it? 18 MS. ARMSTRONG: -- for CRE. Are there any 19 outstanding questions or issues? 20 Many of these things come down to test 21 procedure issues from the Department, or test 22 procedure clarifications in terms of what accessories

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Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 07-01-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 62 1 are on or off during tests. So, we walk through our 2 position, and obviously, we asked for your help on 3 coated coils and then, there's still the first issue 4 of display signs and how we're going to deal with 5 that. But those are the two outstanding. 6 MR. HON: Charlie Hon. Also, the condensate 7 - - how to handle the test procedure for condensate 8 pans. 9 MS. ARMSTRONG: Right. So, the methodology 10 in terms of water level, correct. Absolutely. Other 11 than that, does that resolve most of the issues? 12 So, we would be back to the fundamental 13 definition of CRE. 14 Corey, can you go to slide six, I think? 15 MS. ARMSTRONG: So, we would be -- for the 16 basic model definition, we would be on the first 17 section that would be the definition of basic model. 18 And then, we would go through the process of issuing 19 test procedure clarifications, either through a rule 20 or through guidance, whichever is applicable and/or 21 enforcement guidance where needed about certain 22 features that would not be tested.

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Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 07-01-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 63 1 MR. SHEBIK: Ashley, I've got one last 2 question. 3 MS. ARMSTRONG: Sure. 4 MR. SHEBIK: And it's from another 5 manufacturer, so I'm trying to figure out how to word 6 this. But if you have two identical construction 7 refrigerator cases, with the exception that one has 8 LED lighting, and one has fluorescent lighting. In 9 the eyes of the Department, would it then be -- and 10 they consumed different energy levels -- 11 MS. ARMSTRONG: Um-hmm. 12 MR. SHEBIK: -- because of the lighting. 13 Then, based on the definition of basic model, those 14 are two different basic models because they have two 15 different energy consumption levels. 16 MS. ARMSTRONG: They don't have to be, but 17 yeah. 18 MR. CYMBALSKY: You can rate at the lower -- 19 MR. SHEBIK: Is it -- 20 MS. ARMSTRONG: The florescent one. 21 MR. SHEBIK: But, now, that's considered 22 basic model grouping, I guess, where that would be

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Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 07-01-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 64 1 basic -- 2 MS. ARMSTRONG: No. Our basic model says -- 3 it would allow you to group them together, if you 4 want. They don't have to have -- you have to rate them 5 the same, though, if you do that. That's the key. 6 MR. SHEBIK: -- All right. 7 MS. ARMSTRONG: You couldn't claim the LED 8 more efficient rating. 9 MR. SHEBIK: That's understood. I just -- I 10 guess they're going by the definition of basic model - 11 - trying to differentiate when something is the same, 12 and when something is different because of the 13 identical -- essentially identical electrical values. 14 MS. BARHYDT: Right, so they're the same -- 15 COURT REPORTER: Microphone? 16 MS. BARHYDT: Oh, right. 17 18 So, they're the same when the manufacturer 19 chooses to rate them the same. The manufacturer 20 decides what essentially, identical is. 21 MR. SHEBIK: Okay. 22 MS. BARHYDT: If you choose to rate them the

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Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 07-01-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 65 1 same, they're the same. If you choose to rate them 2 differently -- 3 MS. ARMSTRONG: They're different. 4 MS. BARHYDT: -- they're different. 5 MR. SHEBIK: Okay. 6 MS. DANE: This is Mary Dane from Traulsen. 7 So, I think what the confusion comes in as, is what is 8 the definition of "essentially the same," but I think 9 you just answered that. Is if it's up to the 10 manufacturer to decide what makes it the same, then 11 some of these things might become a little clearer 12 when we're model grouping. 13 MS. ARMSTRONG: Absolutely. And you may do 14 it different than Charlie does it, and that's why 15 we've left it that way. It's we've left it to you. 16 MS. DANE: Okay. So, there's not going to 17 be any definition of "essentially" that's up for 18 interpretation. Okay. Thank you. 19 MS. BARHYDT: Our expectation is that you 20 don't want us to circumscribe that because we want to 21 give you that flexibility. 22 MR. EISNER: Okay. Any concerns?

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Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 07-01-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 66 1 Done with this definition? 2 MR. CYMBALSKY: We're going to need a break. 3 MR. EISNER: Okay. Let's take a break for 4 ten minutes. 5 (Whereupon, there was a brief recess.) 6 MR. EISNER: All right. So we can get 7 started with the slide that's up on the screen now. 8 Laura, refresh my recollection that these were the 9 issues we were on at the last meeting, where DOE said 10 that they wanted to go back and think about where they 11 were. I'm now prepared to go over that and discuss 12 each one of them with the group. 13 MS. BARHYDT: Okay. So same sort of thing 14 as we've been doing. Basic model definition for PTACs 15 and -- how in the world do you say that? 16 MR. CYMBALSKY: We don't say that one. 17 MS. BARHYDT: We don't say that one? 18 MR. CYMBALSKY: PTACs covers it all. 19 MS. BARHYDT: So this was the basic model 20 definition we had before, except that DOE is proposing 21 that instead of the exclusion language that we had at 22 the last meeting, that we deal with some of the issues

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Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 07-01-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 67 1 through test procedures or enforcement guidance. And 2 so before we go into the different areas where you've 3 identified issues, if you would first read just the 4 basic model definition and see whether that covers all 5 the different variations that you all wanted to make 6 sure were included in that definition. 7 MR. THARP: Rusty Tharp with Goodman. I'd 8 like to add decorative grills to the list, or at least 9 suggest we add that, for the similar reasons as the 10 CRE group. 11 MALE SPEAKER: Outdoor grills? 12 MR. THARP: Yes. 13 MS. ARMSTRONG: What do you mean by 14 "decorative"? How do you distinguish, I mean, a 15 decorative one for a non-decorative one? 16 MR. THARP: Rusty Tharp, Goodman. It's 17 typically -- different chains will have a different -- 18 MS. ARMSTRONG: Color. 19 MR. THARP: And so it's not something that 20 we put on our standard product as it goes out the 21 door. They're typically special order-type items. 22 MR. WHITWELL: Yeah, this is Bob Whitwell

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Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 07-01-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 68 1 from Carrier. We're not into the business anymore, 2 but we used to have what we called a standard grille 3 in our literature, and then we would have optional 4 architectural grilles, which would have larger louvres 5 (ph), you know, or -- and -- 6 MS. ARMSTRONG: Okay. 7 MR. WHITWELL: -- different materials. 8 MS. ARMSTRONG: And you clearly distinguish 9 them in your literature now? 10 MR. WHITWELL: Yes. 11 MS. ARMSTRONG: Okay. What do we mean by 12 extended wall sleeves? I mean, other than -- I 13 understand what they mean in the field, but what do we 14 mean by them in the test procedure world? Because 15 they're -- I mean -- 16 MR. JOHNSON: Ashley, this is Tom, back 17 here. 18 MS. ARMSTRONG: Oh, hi. 19 MR. JOHNSON: Welcome back. 20 MS. ARMSTRONG: Thank you. 21 MR. JOHNSON: The standard wall sleeve is 22 generally 14 inches.

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Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 07-01-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 69 1 MS. ARMSTRONG: Yes. 2 MR. JOHNSON: Okay. And so -- but there's 3 many applications where -- or not many, but there's 4 several -- a few applications where they'll go up to 5 as far as 31 inches. So from a test procedure, you 6 can -- you can make this very clear. 7 MS. ARMSTRONG: Yeah. Is it that we don't 8 believe the existing test procedure is clear on what a 9 standard wall sleeve is for the purpose of developing 10 the rating? I didn't have time to double-check this 11 morning when I saw this -- 12 MR. JOHNSON: Okay. 13 MS. ARMSTRONG: -- so that's why I'm asking. 14 MR. JOHNSON: Yeah. 15 MS. ARMSTRONG: Do we know if ASHRAE -- 16 ASHRAE is not 37; right? 17 MR. JOHNSON: Oh, no, no, no. I don't know 18 if they -- 19 MS. ARMSTRONG: Okay. 20 MR. AMRANE: Karim Amrane, AHRI. Are you 21 talking about the -- 22 MS. ARMSTRONG: Yes.

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Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 07-01-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 70 1 MR. AMRANE: The inside, yes. 2 MR. JOHNSON: Yeah. 3 MR. AMRANE: Okay. Yeah, I don't think 4 that's anywhere. 5 MS. ARMSTRONG: Okay. So the ask is just to 6 clarify that the test procedure conditions are at 7 standard wall sleeve dimensions of 14 inches? 8 MR. JOHNSON: Exactly. 9 MS. ARMSTRONG: Okay. What is high10 efficiency air filtration in a PTAC? 11 MR. THARP: That would just -- this is Rusty 12 with Goodman. It would be a -- a air filter that's 13 not the standard supplied -- be like a -- something 14 high -- with a MERV rating higher than the 15 manufacturer offers as standard. 16 MS. ARMSTRONG: So you're just talking about 17 a filter? 18 MR. THARP: Correct. 19 MS. HOOTMAN: Yes. 20 MS. ARMSTRONG: Correct. Coated coils is 21 going to be the same argument. We're going to get 22 into this for HVAC. You know, coated coils is

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Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 07-01-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 71 1 something that, you know, typically in our 2 regulations, it is not separated out. If you were to 3 separate it out, you could consider it a different 4 product class to the extent it would impact the 5 efficiency consumption features. I don't think the 6 Department has a definitive position at this point on 7 coated coils, but I think the presence of a coating is 8 not an indication to the Department that it should be 9 excluded at this point in time. 10 So if there are options or some that -- you 11 know, like we -- like the discussion centered around 12 commercial refrigeration, if there are certain 13 coatings or certain environments or certain 14 degradations that would have, you know, a specific 15 type of coating that would be significantly 16 detrimental to the -- and are needed for consumer 17 utility, we could talk about those. But just the 18 presence of a coating or a different type of coating 19 that's not standard, I don't think is a definitive 20 decision that it should be treated differently. 21 MR. THARP: Rusty Tharp with Goodman. You 22 know, several coils are provided with a typical

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Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 07-01-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 72 1 coating, a hydrophilic coating, obviously on -- 2 typically used on evaporator system or both indoor and 3 outdoor coils and heat pumps. A coating for the 4 corrosive environment is -- in our option description 5 that we previously provided, it's -- we say the coated 6 coils, a condenser evaporator coil having a thin 7 layer, typically two-thousandths of an inch or less 8 thickness, on the fans or -- and/or the fans of the 9 tubes of an anticorrosive material. 10 Hydrophilic coating of itself is not a 11 anticorrosive material, so I think that would, you 12 know, preclude us from having a separate basic model 13 for something as a hydrophilic coating. 14 MS. ARMSTRONG: I guess is the ask not to 15 have a separate basic model, or is the ask that they 16 be considered for enforcement guidance? Because 17 there's different issues there. I mean, I don't think 18 we care if you rate them together; right? But the 19 fact that having a coated coil, in and of itself, 20 would exclude you from standards or testing is a 21 different issue. 22 MR. THARP: Rusty Tharp with Goodman again.

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Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 07-01-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 73 1 I think the -- our ask is that we would like -- 2 because it's -- for most products, it's a fairly small 3 percentage of the market because, again, it's mostly, 4 you know, coastal areas or industrial areas that have 5 a high corrosive content to the air. And because it's 6 such a small -- relatively small portion of the 7 market, our ask would be not a separate basic model or 8 not included in the testing. 9 MR. AMRANE: Karim Amrane, AHRI. But, 10 again, we're not saying that the unit will not be 11 testing. We're saying that you will test the unit with 12 a standard coil. So we are not -- it's not a, you 13 know 14 MR. WHITWELL: So the same -- the same coil 15

-- 16 COURT REPORTER: Microphone. 17 MR. WHITWELL: Bob Whitwell from Carrier. 18 COURT REPORTER: Microphone. 19 MR. WHITWELL: Thank you. Bob Whitwell, 20 Carrier. So the same coil design, same fin, same 21 geometry, just with or without the coating. 22 MS. JAKOBS: This is Diane Jakobs from

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Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 07-01-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 74 1 Rheem. As a suggestion, you might specify a certain 2 salt spray test resistance or something that would 3 differentiate kind of a real corrosion-resistant 4 coating versus kind of a decorative or some of the 5 other things we do, yeah. 6 MS. ARMSTRONG: Okay. 7 MR. DOPPEL: Paul Doppel with Mitsubishi. I 8 think the concern before was someone spraying black 9 paint on the coil and saying it's a coated coil, and, 10 you know, that would not be intent. I think what 11 Diane said is, you know, makes sense that it has to be 12 a salt spray test or a minimum thickness, like rusty 13 was talking about. But it's -- again, the percentage 14 is small, and it would be -- it would be difficult to 15 classify that separately. 16 MS. ARMSTRONG: Okay. So I'm going to turn 17 that one back to you guys then, right, for the ask 18 from the Department is what is a clear definition of 19 coated coils and why? Why should that be considered 20 separate? You know, I differentiate in my head -- and 21 this is not me speaking for the Department, just me as 22 Ashley, you know, I can understand the argument a

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Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 07-01-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 75 1 little better in commercial HVAC, where you have 2 highly customized, built to order so many different 3 combinations. That's not -- that's less of the case 4 with PTACs, when they are -- they're not consumer 5 products, but they're more like -- I mean, they're -- 6 you don't have all the options like you have, although 7 you may have a varying of sleeve sizes, depending on 8 if you offer nonstandard as well. 9 But so I ask that you make that -- you know, 10 in your rationale as to why we should consider this, 11 think about that, because in central air conditioners, 12 they're not -- they are considered part of the test 13 procedure. They have to be tested and rated, 14 separately or together, at your discretion. With an 15 arm (ph), they're subject to standards, and they're 16 defendant subject to verification. 17 MS. JAKOBS: This is Diane Jakobs from Rheem 18 again. And to your point about residential equipment, 19 I mean, we looked at coating coils for residential 20 equipment, and we actually found it was like a mile 21 from the sea coast, where it was really necessary, and 22 where we were talking about people's fins fall off

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Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 07-01-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 76 1 after a year and a half, and it's very localized and 2 has to do with whether the people let the rain fall on 3 their unit, or there are all kinds of issues. So I 4 think probably, you know, PTACs are in hotels and 5 things. You know, if they're right on the sea coast, 6 that's really the real problem. 7 MS. ARMSTRONG: I don't think the Department 8 questions the utility aspect of that. They're 9 definitely -- you know, it's just a matter of how to 10 handle it at this point. 11 MR. EISNER: Is this a homework assignment 12 or something we could go do after lunch? 13 MR. THARP: It's a homework -- 14 MR. EISNER: Or think about it over -- 15 MR. THARP: Homework. 16 MR. EISNER: Okay. 17 MS. BARHYDT: Anything else on PTACs? 18 MS. ARMSTRONG: (Inaudible). 19 MS. BARHYDT: Yes. 20 MS. ARMSTRONG: (Inaudible). 21 MS. BARHYDT: Uh-huh. 22 MS. ARMSTRONG: (Inaudible).

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Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 07-01-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 77 1 MR. EISNER: Okay. Are we ready for the 2 next slide? 3 MS. ARMSTRONG: So I guess from -- I'm 4 guessing for this one, does it make more sense to go 5 to the commercial HVAC and then come back to this one 6 once we get through all the issues for commercial 7 HVAC? 8 MR. THARP: Yes. 9 MS. ARMSTRONG: Okay. 10 MS. BARHYDT: Do you want to just go to the 11 list? 12 MS. ARMSTRONG: Yeah, let's go to 19. 13 So these are the lists, as I understand it, 14 of HVAC features that you guys wanted us to consider, 15 either or test procedure guidance or test procedure 16 exclusions or enforcement guidance. Like Laura said 17 at the outset, I don't think the Department, at this 18 point, is open to a basic model definition which lists 19 exclusions because that's not something that's going 20 to get you to the endpoint of what you want. Instead, 21 for us, it's really either saying it shouldn't be 22 tested with this option or should be tested with this

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Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 07-01-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 78 1 option. In other words, it would or wouldn't affect 2 the rating and then -- and/or enforcement guidance, 3 which it would not be subject to verification and 4 enforcement testing that way. That's just how we 5 would deal with things, I think. 6 So the first one is the copper. I think the 7 Department's position, at least from what I remember 8 from the first meeting -- it's still our position 9 today -- models containing copper coils would be 10 subject to testing by the Department. They would not 11 be excluded. 12 MR. EISNER: Any comments or concerns on 13 that? 14 MR. THARP: This is Rusty with Goodman. I 15 guess, again, the question of this goes back to how we 16 consider those as basic models. So you're leaving it, 17 then, to the manufacturer to decide whether that is 18 part of the basic model or not. 19 MS. ARMSTRONG: Right. So you don't have to 20 rate them separately. You may rate them as -- 21 MR. THARP: Same. 22 MS. ARMSTRONG: -- the same as the ones with

### Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 07-01-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 79 1 aluminum coils, aluminum -- right? That's what you 2 do, I think. 3 MR. THARP: Correct. Typically, yes. 4 MS. ARMSTRONG: Okay. 5 MR. THARP: But any sample you select would 6 have to meet the 95 percent criteria. 7 MS. ARMSTRONG: They'd have to meet the 8 standard? 9 MR. THARP: Correct. Meet the -- thank you. 10 MR. EISNER: Anything else? Economizers. 11 MS. ARMSTRONG: Okay. Economizers, I think 12 this has been our position also from day one. We can 13 issue test procedure clarifications that the testing 14 does not need to be performed on units with 15 economizers, but you do need to have an identical unit 16 that would be subject to tests, if we wanted to test 17 one. 18 MS. HOOTMAN: (Inaudible). 19 MS. ARMSTRONG: So I believe it's what you 20 want, right? So we would need to be able to pick a 21 base unit without an economizer for verification or 22 enforcement testing if we so choose as well as what --

### Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 07-01-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 80 1 but we will clarify that economizers are not part of 2 the test. So in other words, the rating would not be 3 affected by the presence of an economizer, because it 4 should be removed as part of the testing. Okay? 5 MR. THARP: Rusty Tharp with Goodman. So if 6 DOE were to select a model that did have an economizer 7 in it, it -- the economizer would be physically 8 removed before testing? 9 MS. ARMSTRONG: Yeah. And ideally you would 10 have -- so, first of all, the issue is if you do not 11 have a model without an economizer available, then the 12 economizer's fair game. However, if -- otherwise it 13 should be removed as part of the test. You should 14 have a base model available. 15 MR. THARP: Thank you. 16 MS. ARMSTRONG: Yeah. 17 MR. WHITWELL: Bob Whitwell, Carrier. Just 18 a clarification, so DOE would not order and receive a 19 unit with the economizer and then physically remove 20 it. You would order a unit without the economizer? 21 MS. ARMSTRONG: If you have one, that's 22 ideal -- ideally, yes.

### Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 07-01-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 81 1 MR. WHITWELL: Yeah, okay. 2 MS. ARMSTRONG: Such that we could 3 distinguish the 40 asterisks of serial numbers and 4 it's very clear in your literature that here's one 5 with, and here's one without. 6 MR. WHITWELL: It can be determined, yes. 7 MS. ARMSTRONG: Okay. Thank you. 8 MR. EISNER: Any other concerns? 9 MR. MYERS: Frank Myers, PVI. Just -- 10 MR. EISNER: It's okay. 11 MR. MYERS: -- in the last sentence there, 12 however, A-N, rather than A-N-D. 13 MS. BARHYDT: Yes, thank you. 14 MR. SACHS: Harvey Sachs, ACEEE. I just 15 want to put in a footnote reminding us all of -- that 16 we're seeing things like these Western Challenge 17 models and the DOE's own challenge, which will be, we 18 hope or expect, quite integrated and -- and they may 19 be a little bit challenged in a deal with the 20 identical model without the economizer. 21 MS. ARMSTRONG: Yeah, so, Harvey, I think 22 what we're talking about here is going to be our

### Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 07-01-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 82 1 position in the near term. Ideally, when we go to the 2 next rule, the current rule for commercial air 3 conditioners, we would address the more long-term 4 issues. And that could be that we revisit this issue 5 at that time. Your point is taken, though. 6 MR. SACHS: (Inaudible). 7 MS. ARMSTRONG: Talk to your friends around 8 the table. 9 MR. EISNER: Anything else? Ventilation 10 Energy Recovery Systems? 11 MS. BARHYDT: Do we have a position here? 12 So for these -- for Ventilation Energy Recovery 13 Systems, our position at this time is we can issue 14 guidance that testing will not be performed on a unit 15 that has a Ventilation Energy Recovery System; 16 however, a model that is otherwise identical must be 17 available for testing without a Ventilation Energy 18 Recovery System. And if you don't have one, then it's 19 fair game. So I would assume there's also a way to 20 distinguish these. 21 MR. EISNER: Any comments? 22 Okay. Next issue?

### Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 07-01-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 83 1 MS. ARMSTRONG: So the next one is the 2 process heat recovery/reclaim coils/thermal storage, 3 the Department will issue guidance indicating that 4 testing will not also be performed on these, but you 5 would have to have a model available that did not have 6 this option. 7 MR. EISNER: Comments or concerns? 8 Okay. The next one, coated coils. 9 MS. ARMSTRONG: So this is the same as for 10 PTACs and for CRE. The description's the same here. 11 We're asking you guys for guidance. We are open to 12 consider potentially some type of enforcement 13 exclusion for certain types of coated coils. It 14 shouldn't be the norm. It shouldn't be standard. So 15 we're asking for you guys how you make that 16 differentiation. 17 MR. EISNER: Any concerns? Okay. The next 18 issue is correction capacitors. 19 MS. ARMSTRONG: Yeah, so this one we see as 20 a -- more of a test procedure clarification that may 21 need to be made. We can issue clarifications that 22 power should be measured downstream of a capacitor or

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Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 07-01-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 84 1 that the capacitor should be disconnected when 2 testing. 3 MR. EISNER: Questions, concerns? 4 Okay. Next issue? 5 MS. ARMSTRONG: Hail guards. So we will 6 also issue test procedure guidance that testing will 7 not be performed with a unit with hail guards, or that 8 hail guards should be removed. If we do get that 9 unit, the hail guards should be removed. 10 MR. EISNER: Questions, concerns? 11 Dehumidification components? 12 MS. ARMSTRONG: This one's a little more 13 complex. We're willing to consider also, you know, 14 issuing guidance that testing will not be performed on 15 units with dehumidification components, although I'm 16 wondering exactly what you mean by dehumidification 17 components in terms of what's in and what's out. 18 MR. EISNER: Definitions from somebody? 19 MS. ARMSTRONG: And so how do you -- how do 20 you tell a unit has dehumidification components versus 21 one that doesn't? And is there always a standard one 22 available?

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Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 07-01-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 85 1 MR. THARP: Rusty Tharp with Goodman. 2 Usually, if this is an option that's provided, I -- 3 and it's either a second additional coil that's put in 4 the airstream or desiccant wheel of some sort. 5 MS. ARMSTRONG: So I think the desiccant 6 wheel is pretty obvious. It's like how do you tell 7 with a second coil that that's the dehum component 8 versus another part of its design or 9 MR. FLY: This is Mark Fly with AAON. 10 Rusty, I think hot gas reheat coils are coming up in a 11 later issue, so I would interpret this to be liquid 12 desiccant systems or desiccant wheels, if I look a 13 page or two ahead. 14 MR. SACHS: Again, they're -- we're starting 15 to see the emergence of enhanced dehumidification 16 capabilities, and I think Mark's comment's very 17 helpful, but it may be limiting, and I expect to see 18 advanced products for which that auxiliary 19 dehumidification capability is integrated and no 20 longer auxiliary. 21 So it seems to me that the possibility of 22 using a performance specification of anything which

### Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 07-01-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 86 1 has the capability of doing a sensible heat ratio less 2 than X would be defined as one for which the 3 dehumidification components might be excluded. 4 MR. FLY: Mark Fly with AAON again. The 5 problem, Harvey, is that the conditions that -- as 6 defined by the test standard really don't do anything 7 to exhibit the enhanced features that the 8 dehumidification takes advantage of, but it does 9 reflect in a pressure drop that's associated with the 10 components. 11 MR. SACHS: Harvey Sachs again. So I guess 12 what I'm asking is whether the -- whether it's worth 13 the effort because this would involve a simulation or 14 a test away from the standard test conditions to 15 evaluate. And certainly I recognize the pressure drop 16 penalty of sticking this big wheel in there, but how 17 should we proceed to keep things innovation-friendly? 18 MR. EISNER: Other thoughts? Is this a 19 homework assignment? Do you need more time or 20 MS. MEYERS: This is Karen Myers with Rheem, 21 and I think we should take this as a homework 22 assignment because Harvey's comments are very valid

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Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 07-01-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 87 1 here as we look at next-gen products, the way we have 2 it defined now, that we won't be adequate. So I think 3 we should maybe take this as a homework assignment to 4 see if we can come up with a better way to provide a 5 definition and reasoning to the Department. 6 MR. AMRANE: This is Karim Amrane, AHRI. I 7 think it's more than just a homework assignment. I 8 think this issue probably is a test procedure long9 term change. 10 MS. ARMSTRONG: I think a lot of these are - 11

- 12 MR. AMRANE: Exactly. 13 MS. ARMSTRONG: -- honestly. I mean, a lot 14 of them are test procedure long -- 15 MR. AMRANE: Long-term. So I think for the 16 immediate issue, I think we need to find a solution 17 and then work towards changing the test procedure. 18 MS. ARMSTRONG: Yeah. I mean 19 MS. MEYERS: Yeah, but the long term, what 20 does that mean? 21 MALE SPEAKER: Yeah. 22 MS. MEYERS: That --

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Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 07-01-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 88 1 MS. ARMSTRONG: Yeah, I would say 2 concurrent; right? I mean, so to us, it's concurrent 3 with -- a lot of these that we're saying we will issue 4 guidance on, the guidance is short-term limiting. The 5 hope would be, and the commitment from the Department, 6 is to work with you guys on a longer term solution. 7 MR. FLY: This is Mark Fly with AAON again. 8 The -- and not on this list, because I know we left it 9 out of our original list, is also some of the stuff 10 that came up in the Western Cooling Challenge in 11 things like evap cooling, which would have similar 12 characteristics, not work very well at the test 13 conditions, but certainly have a real use in a piece 14 of equipment. 15 So, I mean, it has the -- the reason I bring 16 it up now is it has the same type of problems that the 17 dehumidification components are -- that these free 18 cooling off of evaporative cooling, which are really 19 humidification components, almost, would have, that 20 they don't shine at -- they don't show their value at 21 the test conditions, but they do have a value in 22 application.

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Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 07-01-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 89 1 MR. EISNER: Others? So we agree there will 2 be some work on another -- on a better definition? 3 Long term, it's going to require changes in testing 4 procedures. Okay. Indoor fan motor? 5 MS. ARMSTRONG: Yeah. So for VFD systems, I 6 think that the short-term position, especially with 7 the EER metric, is that we will issue guidance that we 8 will not test a unit that has an integrated VFD. An 9 item -- or a model must be available without the VFD 10 that essentially is identical that should be tested, 11 so the base model. And that's the short-term. 12 MR. EISNER: Questions? 13 MR. THARP: Rusty Tharp with Goodman. I 14 would like to either suggest we modify this one to 15 include VFDs used on compressors or have a separate 16 item that I'd specifically identify as compressor with 17 VFD. 18 MS. ARMSTRONG: Why? 19 MR. THARP: It's for the same reason as the 20 indoor fan motors. You could put a VFD on a 21 compressor to turn it down, save energy consumption at 22 lower ambience. The VFD itself --

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Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 07-01-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 90 1 MS. ARMSTRONG: Would it be kicked in, 2 though -- 3 MR. THARP: Yeah. 4 MS. ARMSTRONG: -- under the test 5 conditions? It would? 6 MR. THARP: Yes. Yes. This is just like 7 the indoor fan motor VFD, so it's -- the VFD's -- has 8 power to it at all times, but it saves energy during - 9

- 10 MS. ARMSTRONG: Right. 11 MR. THARP: -- lower loads. So it's 12 basically the exact same operation as the indoor fan 13 motor. 14 MS. ARMSTRONG: Right. 15 MR. THARP: But just used on a compressor. 16 MS. ARMSTRONG: We'll consider it. 17 MR. EISNER: Anything else? Condenser fan 18 motor options. 19 MR. DOPPEL: Paul Doppel with Mitsubishi. 20 Just on that -- the VFDs, I think it would be 21 important to say an add-on VFD for the compressors, 22 because some manufacturers have standard inverter-

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Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 07-01-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 91 1 driven compressors. 2 MS. ARMSTRONG: Okay. 3 MR. STARR: Louis Starr with NEEA. It -- 4 you're under the indoor fan motor section, though. 5 That's -- the compressor's different. 6 MS. ARMSTRONG: Yeah, yeah, yeah. So 7 they're asking to add an option. Oh, Cory is? 8 MS. TUCKER: Yeah. 9 MS. ARMSTRONG: Oh, I just put a note -- 10 MS. STARR: The other thing I just wanted to 11 point out, you know, when you get 100-ton unit, they 12 always have VFDs. So when we saw an order coming in 13 for one without a VFD, it's pretty obvious who's 14 ordering it, but 15 MS. HOOTMAN: This is Jill from Trane. Test 16 standard is up to 760,000 BTUs. 17 MR. STARR: Just right underneath that, 18 even, still, that would be a pretty sizable unit not 19 to have a VFD, so 20 MS. ARMSTRONG: I think at some point, the 21 Department would like to see, you know, how do we -- 22 how is there -- how is it differentiate -- like how

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Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 07-01-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 92 1 will we know there's a standard versus a not -- so how 2 do I know that I'm ordering a non-VFD versus a VFD, to 3 ensure that these things that we are agreeing to here, 4 you know, there's the ability to do standard -- what 5 is considered standard versus option? 6 MR. THARP: Rusty Tharp with Goodman. Most 7 manufacturers would be a part of the nomenclature 8 somewhere. Could be an asterisk, but it would 9 probably be defined fairly clearly in the product 10 literature 11 MS. ARMSTRONG: Okay. I mean, as long as 12 they're clear. 13 MR. JOHNSON: Yeah. Tom Johnson with 14 McQuay. I have -- I want to disagree with Louis, 15 because we ship plenty of units without VFDs, and the 16 VFDs get supplied in the field by the rep, by the 17 contractor, by whoever. 18 MS. ARMSTRONG: Okay. 19 MR. JOHNSON: So, you know, just to clarify 20 that. But they are -- they're part of an option group 21 somewhere in the model number. 22 MR. WHITWELL: Bob Whitwell with Carrier.

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Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 07-01-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 93 1 And it may not be called out specifically VFD or not. 2 It could be constant volume unit or variable air 3 volume unit, for example. Constant volume would not 4 have a VFD. The fan runs at one speed. VAV is 5 variable air volume. We also have what we call -- for 6 Carrier, we have staged air volume, which has a VFD in 7 it. So you probably would have to look at the 8 literature, read the literature a little bit and 9 understand what the options are to make sure that -- 10 you know, if you wanted to select one with or without 11 a VFD. 12 MS. ARMSTRONG: But your variable air volume 13 units would still be subject to the base, no? 14 MR. WHITWELL: Sure. 15 MS. ARMSTRONG: Yeah? 16 MR. WHITWELL: Absolutely. 17 MS. ARMSTRONG: Okay. 18 MR. WHITWELL: Okay. 19 MS. ARMSTRONG: Just those that are sold 20 with a VFD? 21 MR. WHITWELL: They -- the -- yeah, the -- 22 yeah, I mean, I would expect our variable air volume

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Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 07-01-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 94 1 units would be tested with the VFD. 2 MS. ARMSTRONG: Not if we do this. The 3 variable air volume would be base. That's -- I guess 4 that's the question. 5 MR. WHITWELL: Yeah, I mean -- 6 MR. AMRANE: I guess -- this is Karim 7 Amrane, AHRI. I think we're talking about an add-on 8 to the unit, not -- I mean, if it's shipped with it, I 9 mean, if that's what you're making, it's just -- 10 MR. WHITWELL: We have -- yeah. Yeah, we 11 have options -- 12 MR. AMRANE: Yeah. 13 MR. WHITWELL: -- right, with or without 14 MR. AMRANE: Right. 15 MR. WHITWELL: Even -- yeah, even without 16 VAV, we have options to add the VFD; right? 17 MS. ARMSTRONG: So it's an add-on VFD? If 18 it's integrated at the manufacturer, whether -- you 19 know, if it's a VAV, if it's a VFD integrated from the 20 manufacturer, it's subject. We're good to go. It can 21 be base. That is what you're saying. 22 MR. FLY: This is Mark Fly with AAON. If

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Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 07-01-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 95 1 the metric's going to be EER, the VFD is going to hurt 2 you at full load, and you're not going to -- not going 3 to get any advantage because you're not measuring any 4 part load points. 5 MS. ARMSTRONG: Correct. 6 MR. FLY: If the metric becomes IER, it 7 changes the ballgame. 8 MS. ARMSTRONG: Right. So the short-term 9 fix is for the existing metrics, which is EER. And 10 then, obviously, to the extent we -- 11 MR. FLY: Then a constant volume or variable 12 volume unit should have the same energy efficiency, 13 except for if you put a VFD on a variable volume unit, 14 it's going to be a little bit less. 15 MS. ARMSTRONG: So I guess the question, 16 then, becomes so constant and variable are included, 17 but is a VFD that's integrated at the point of the 18 manufacturer, not an add-on, included -- should be 19 tested? 20 MR. FLY: I mean, what you're going to end 21 up doing is driving us all to sell units without VFDs. 22 MS. ARMSTRONG: I'm just asking what the ask

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Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 07-01-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 96 1 -- I'm just trying to figure out what the ask is. 2 Like what were you guys considering? All VFDs, 3 regardless, should be excluded, or just add-on VFDs? 4 What -- where do we draw the line, and how do we tell? 5 Karim, what do you guys do, do you know, for 6 your programs? 7 MR. AMRANE: I mean, probably we test 8 without, but, again, I mean, that's what we do in our 9 program. 10 MS. ARMSTRONG: Right. I'm just asking. 11 MR. AMRANE: Yeah. 12 MR. STANONIK: Frank Stanonik with AHRI. I 13 mean, even if it got integrated at the factory, it was 14 ordered at an -- as an option, right? So it's an 15 option, so it should be tested without it. 16 MS. ARMSTRONG: Well, just because things 17 are option doesn't mean that they should be tested; 18 right? I mean, that's what we're trying to 19 differentiate, those options that should be on versus 20 those that aren't here, but 21 MR. STANONIK: Well, but in this case, you 22 know, you're making a distinction just because

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Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 07-01-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 97 1 somebody can add it on as opposed to integrate it. If 2 it's added, it doesn't get tested. Well, the fact 3 that the manufacturer integrated it, it's still an 4 option the customer ordered; in this case, doesn't 5 need to be tested. 6 MS. ARMSTRONG: Right. I'm not -- so I 7 don't think the Department has a position on this one 8 yet. It's more of I'm trying to figure out what you 9 guys wanted -- 10 MR. STANONIK: And -- 11 MS. ARMSTRONG: Karim's over there telling 12 me add -- or integrated should be -- 13 MR. FLY: Well -- 14 MR. AMRANE: I thought I said we don't test 15 them with them. 16 MR. FLY: Yeah. 17 MS. ARMSTRONG: Said you didn't -- 18 MR. FLY: Mark Fly with AAON. In the AHRI 19 program, you can list your unit as constant volume or 20 variable volume, and those units listed as variable 21 volume rate at IEER usually have a VFD on them. I 22 mean, the disconnect here is that we're using basic

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Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 07-01-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 98 1 model groups in AHRI and we're using basic models 2 here, and so -- 3 MS. ARMSTRONG: I don't see that being a 4 disconnect. 5 MR. FLY: There's a list -- I mean, they're 6 making a listing -- 7 MS. ARMSTRONG: I don't see that being a 8 difference, actually, at all. 9 MR. FLY: I mean, there's a listing for a 10 variable volume unit and a listing for a constant 11 volume unit, and they're different listings. 12 MS. ARMSTRONG: You could do that here, 13 though. I mean -- 14 MR. FLY: Right. 15 MS. ARMSTRONG: -- it could be identical. I 16 mean, that's the thing here. What I'm trying to 17 understand is it seems to be that you offer variable 18 volume -- variable airflow units, both with a VFD and 19 without. Is that true? 20 MS. HOOTMAN: Yes, that's true. 21 MS. ARMSTRONG: So are the ones that are -- 22 are only the ones without the VFDs subject to testing,

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Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 07-01-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 99 1 or is it -- because it's very clear that variable 2 airflow as well as fixed airflow, constant airflow, 3 should be subject to testing. It's just a matter of 4 where you draw the line for the VFD. And is it that 5 all VFDs are out, or is it that certain VFDs are in? 6 And then how do you differentiate, because if you just 7 put them on AHRI's directory as being fixed volume 8 versus variable volume, how do you tell those variable 9 volumes that have VFDs? That's the ask, I guess. 10 MALE SPEAKER: Harvey? 11 MR. SACHS: Harvey Sachs. And I think the 12 question of whether a regulation's going to drive the 13 manufacturers to offer fixed speed with a later 14 integration is an important question. The issue of 15 evolution is important. And I'd like something 16 factual. My sense has been that the parasitics 17 associated with the variable speed drive at peak load 18 are in the range of 2 percent. Is it much smaller 19 than that or much larger than that? 20 So Rusty's indicating that it is in the 21 order of 2 percent. Now, somehow -- I guess it seems 22 to me the simplest is to test it as-is, assuming that

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Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 07-01-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 100 1 it's when the safety -- within the safety factory of 2 everybody's designs and construction, and let it be, 3 but I'm afraid I'm going to get all sorts of stones 4 hurled at me. It just -- I mean, the industry is 5 evolving toward VFDs, and this would be a mild 6 incentive to get better VFDs, recognizing that that 7 goes asymptotic, and it just seems that it would be a 8 level playing field and equal for everybody, 9 particularly as Louis tells us the programs are 10 evolving, and maybe we'll -- the utility program. 11 Maybe we'll be seeing a dual path. 12 MR. SACHS: (Inaudible). 13 MS. HOOTMAN: This is Jill from Trane. Yes, 14 it's around 2 percent, from our experience. 15 MR. SACHS: Forty percent -- 16 COURT REPORTER: Microphone, sir. 17 MS. HOOTMAN: It's on. 18 COURT REPORTER: Not yours, his. 19 MR. SACHS: So it's 40 percent of the 20 allowed error margin and a mild tweak in anything that 21 you do at the design stage, in terms of assuring that 22 your product is going to pass.

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 101 1 MS. HOOTMAN: Yeah. 2 MR. SACHS: Is it -- in other words, is this 3 a fight that's worth having? 4 MS. HOOTMAN: It's how many more other 5 options are also going to be in that whole -- yeah. 6 MR. SACHS: I'm only asking about this one - 7

- 8 MS. HOOTMAN: I know. So if it's only this 9 one, probably not the fight, but -- we still haven't 10 talked about coated coils and some other things. I 11 know when you add those all together 12 MS. JAKOBS: This is Diane Jakobs from 13 Rheem. In the 5 percent you're talking about, that's 14 for manufacturing variability, so that's not for 15 different options. Any option combination we might 16 have, we'll have some amount of variability based on 17 how things go together and what the tolerances are and 18 whether they're working for you today or against you. 19 So you can't really say that 5 percent, that we can 20 parcel it out for different activities or 21 considerations. It's really meant for manufacturing 22 variability.

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Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 07-01-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 102 1 MS. HOOTMAN: And testing variability. 2 MS. JAKOBS: And testing variability. Thank 3 you. That's right. 4 MR. SACHS: This is Harvey Sachs, and thank 5 you for that, Diane. And I think I understood that. 6 I was only offering the 5 percent and the 2 percent as 7 sort of an estimate of the magnitude that we were 8 talking about here, not as saying we wanted to use it 9 up. 10 MR. EISNER: Any other comments? 11 Suggestions on how to resolve it? 12 MS. ARMSTRONG: Leave it open until we get 13 to the end? 14 MR. AMRANE: Maybe. 15 MS. ARMSTRONG: Maybe, for now? 16 That's way beyond my 17 MR. CYMBALSKY: Remember, a football team 18 needs more than a punter to succeed. Just saying. 19 Maybe we can get a field goal out of this, 20 huh? 21 MS. ARMSTRONG: Okay. Condenser fan motor 22 assembly design for -- basically motor options for

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Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 07-01-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 103 1 ducting. So my general question -- and this is going 2 to come up later as well -- what -- how do you -- how 3 do you -- how do you tell when something's a higher 4 rated -- I mean, I know how you tell if it's a higher 5 rated motor, so but how do you tell something's not 6 standard for these? 7 MS. HOOTMAN: By the nomenclature. 8 MS. MEYERS: It's an option in the model 9 number. 10 MR. WHITWELL: I'm just not sure that 11 everybody has a standard -- 12 COURT REPORTER: Microphone, sir. 13 MS. ARMSTRONG: Yeah, so we don't -- 14 MR. WHITWELL: Yeah, the question is whether 15 we all have something that we described as standard 16 and then -- and then identify others as nonstandard; 17 right? 18 MS. ARMSTRONG: That is going to be the 19 differentiation point, because if you don't have 20 something that's considered standard verse -- I mean, 21 the key to all this is if we agree and issue 22 enforcement guidance, that this is a -- what we call a

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Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 07-01-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 104 1 nonstandard component and would be excluded from 2 testing, then you have to have to have a standard 3 version of it clearly available; otherwise it becomes 4 standard. 5 MS. JAKOBS: This is Diane Jakobs again. 6 And we don't sell these, but from the discussion last 7 time, they were talking about the fact that you have 8 ducting as an option, and then when you have a duct, 9 then there's a different motor that goes along with 10 it, so a non -- so you wouldn't have like a standard, 11 ducted model, from the way I understood the 12 discussion, but the fact that a ducted model was 13 nonstandard -- does that make -- they were talking 14 about like in a large building, you'd have one floor 15 that's a mechanical room and that you would -- they 16 would have a bunch of equipment, and it would be 17 ducted to the outside. But that would be a non -- a 18 ducted model. A condenser fan duct is nonstandard. 19 MS. ARMSTRONG: Okay. So you're ducting the 20 condenser outside -- 21 MR. WHITWELL: Yeah. 22 MS. ARMSTRONG: -- is the issue.

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Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 07-01-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 105 1 MR. WHITWELL: Yes, yes. 2 MS. ARMSTRONG: So if it's -- okay, so that 3 makes more sense. I think we need to clarify this 4 one, so -- 5 MR. KOJAK: What was brought up last time 6 was -- 7 MS. ARMSTRONG: I apologize for not knowing 8

-- 9 MR. KOJAK: -- depending on the length of 10 the duct for the condenser, it's specced out when it's 11 ordered, the size of the fan, in order to push out the 12 proper air through the amount of ductwork that they're 13 going to have, depending on where it's located with -- 14 inside the building. So the further it has to go, the 15 bigger the fan, so that's going to be customized to 16 the location of the unit when they finally install it. 17 MS. ARMSTRONG: Okay. Right, so I guess 18 what is standard, then, is my question? So -- 19 MR. AMRANE: Standard is non-ducted -- 20 COURT REPORTER: Microphone? 21 MS. ARMSTRONG: Yeah, yeah, yeah. So I get 22 that. So all ducted ones -- right, but so what does

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Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 07-01-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 106 1 that mean in terms of us knowing -- so the non-ducted 2 version would be clearly separated from the ducted 3 version? 4 MR. WHITWELL: Well, I think -- Bob Whitwell 5 from Carrier. So I think it's more complex than that 6 because it actually -- you have to get into like -- 7 like we have software called The Builder, which you 8 would go into that, and you would tell it, "I have a 9 certain external static requirement for my product," 10 and it tells you which motor you should order. 11 So, you know, just by going to our model 12 number nomenclature page and seeing the list of 13 motors, you can't tell which one is the, quote, 14 standard or the nonstandard. But if you were to go 15 in, and you were to engage with our people or you go 16 in and use The Builder -- the sales tools, it will 17 tell you which one to use for a non-ducted 18 application, in the case of this particular -- non19 ducted condenser application. Is that -- is that 20 clear? 21 MS. ARMSTRONG: I mean, it's clear. I think 22 -- I mean, take it from our position in that we just

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Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 07-01-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 107 1 are trying to differentiate the ask of -- I mean, this 2 goes with both the -- whether -- 3 MR. WHITWELL: Yeah. 4 MS. ARMSTRONG: -- we're talking condenser 5 or -- I mean, this goes with the motor options, 6 period, right? 7 MR. WHITWELL: So -- yeah, so -- 8 MS. ARMSTRONG: We're trying -- how do we 9 differentiate standard versus someone that's just 10 optimized for -- they may offer a bigger -- say they 11 optimized for a platform versus a range of tonnages, 12 and maybe it's a little bit bigger on the low end, 13 it's a little bit smaller on the high end, but they've 14 optimized that so they can order -- offer one motor 15 type across a range of tonnages. 16 I mean, how do you differentiate something 17 that's a larger motor that's necessary for a consumer 18 utility installation that has a higher static versus 19 one that's just maybe oversized, but really is 20 standard for that specific tonnage. 21 MR. WHITWELL: So just a thought. Maybe we 22 need to include this as part of the submission,

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 108 1 certification submission, describe what is the motor? 2 I mean, the alternative, I think, is to put in the 3 literature what the DOE-tested motor is, which, you 4 know, the customers don't really care about that. 5 MS. ARMSTRONG: Yeah. I mean, you already - 6 - you already, in terms of the AEDM stuff, agreed to 7 send in -- or have an agreement for whatever sheet you 8 want, and maybe that could be part of it. I don't 9 know -- 10 MR. WHITWELL: It could be part of that. 11 MS. ARMSTRONG: I don't know the answer, but 12 I'm just -- we're trying -- we're having a pretty hard 13 time grappling with the motor issue right now. The 14 Department doesn't have a position at this time, but 15 it's definitely hard for us to understand what is 16 standard versus something that's just running at a 17 higher static -- 18 MR. WHITWELL: Uh-huh. 19 MS. ARMSTRONG: -- and how you 20 differentiate, you know, just by looking at your 21 literature, from what we've seen, at least, like what 22 is a standard motor versus what is just options across

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Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 07-01-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 109 1 the platforms that may be offered. 2 So I don't know. If you guys want to, you 3 know, provide any additional insight or suggestions on 4 how we could differentiate, we're willing to consider 5 it, but at the same time -- 6 MS. MEYERS: Yeah, this is Karen with Rheem, 7 and I think that's the whole commercial market. I 8 don't know what a standard unit is. It's like we -- 9 our program is called Design Star Professional, and 10 it's where the engineer puts in the conditions of the 11 building, and the unit's almost selected for you. 12 So it kind of goes back to the whole thing, 13 and when it comes to commercial, there's not -- you 14 know, it's all just so design-specific that I don't 15 know how you come up with the standard units. 16 MR. AMRANE: Okay. Karim Amrane, AHRI. But 17 at the same time, Karen, and for the other 18 manufacturers, you rate a product to meet the minimum 19 federal standard. What I that product that you rate 20 to meet the minimum federal standard? And that is 21 what they was looking, is really what is that -- 22 MS. HOOTMAN: Yeah. I think --

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 110 1 MR. AMRANE: I mean, we do tests as AHRI as 2 well, and you give us a unit to test. What is -- so 3 that unit has a fan in it, and that's what DOE is 4 looking for. We need to -- 5 MS. ARMSTRONG: Yeah, I mean, we need to 6 understand -- if you're asking us -- if you're telling 7 me that there's -- you know, everything is design8 specific and there is no such thing as standard, then 9 this all goes off the table, right, because you're 10 asking us to consider and define, basically, what is a 11 standard unit through what's in and what's out with 12 the test procedure and what's in and what's out with 13 enforcement. So what we're trying to understand is 14 what does that mean? What does a standard unit mean, 15 and how can someone that is not the manufacturer tell? 16 MS. HOOTMAN: This is Jill from Trane. I 17 think the standard unit, we would say, is the one that 18 is able to be tested at the test procedure, so 19 therefore we're selecting the motor and sheaves and 20 pulleys, et cetera, that will achieve that static for 21 that test procedure. 22 MR. KOJAK: I've got a -- this is Mike Kojak

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 111 1 with UL -- a question for the OEMs. If -- for the 2 standard model -- because we're talking about 3 condenser fans, you know, that's zero external static 4 for outdoor. Wouldn't it be the minimum horsepower 5 motor always for the standard, and then if there was 6 ducting that was going to go on the condenser portion, 7 then you would use the options above that for the 8 static? 9 So wouldn't it be -- if it's free air 10 discharge, it would be the minimum size motor, because 11 I wouldn't think you guys would want to give bigger 12 motors away for free, so I would think it would be -- 13 as long as it's external static, it should be the 14 minimum motor size. 15 MR. WHITWELL: That's -- Bob Whitwell from 16 Carrier. That's right. On the condenser fan, that's 17 -- or condenser fan motor, that's exactly right. It's 18 just that in our literature, it's not clear which is 19 the smallest motor for a particular model; right? 20 MR. KOJAK: Okay. 21 MR. WHITWELL: So I think that's where the - 22 - that's where the -- where DOE could be struggling a

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Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 07-01-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 112 1 bit. But if we were to include that as part of the 2 certification, whether it's in, you know, the 3 additional instructions for testing it or part of the 4 certification input, then I think that could help. 5 MR. EISNER: I have a question from Rodney 6 Beever. He asks: "Where will units fit that 7 are ducted on the condenser side as standard? The 8 test standards do not provide any details for a ducted 9 condenser." 10 MS. HOOTMAN: That's correct. 11 MR. WHITWELL: Right. It's zero external 12 static. 13 MS. ARMSTRONG: That's why we're having the 14 discussion. 15 COURT REPORTER: Microphone? 16 MS. ARMSTRONG: Sorry. That's why we're 17 having the discussion. 18 MR. CYMBALSKY: So my question -- John 19 Cymbalsky, DOE. How many -- how many do you actually 20 ship with the standard motor? It sounds to me that 21 everything being installed doesn't have the standard 22 motor, unless I'm just missing the conversation

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 113 1 completely. So I keep going back to I think about a 2 car, and if I order the V8, the yellow sticker's not 3 going to say 24 on it, it'll say 20 for the EPA 4 mileage. 5 And so I know this is different, and I know 6 I don't get all the intricacies here, but you could 7 see where -- this is where I'm trying to come from, is 8 what -- if we were going to have a label on these 9 things, and I'm not saying we are, but if there was, I 10 mean, you know, I just see this -- you know, you make 11 the thing, and under the test procedure, it gets a 10. 12 Oh, but, wait a minute, nobody uses that motor. We 13 always put this motor in, so it's really a 9, or it's 14 -- whatever the number is. I don't know. 15 So I guess I'm just trying to get a sense 16 for how much is, you know -- how much of this market 17 is actually nonstandard, with respect just to the 18 motor part of it, not everything else going on? 19 MR. WHITWELL: Bob Whitwell from Carrier. 20 On the condenser motor, the majority are non-ducted. 21 Okay? So I think, you know, on the condenser motor, 22 we can say that for sure. On the evaporator motor,

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 114 1 then it may be a different picture. 2 MS. HOOTMAN: Yeah. On the evaporator -- 3 this is Jill from Trane. On the evaporator motor, it 4 is -- I totally agree with Bob. Ninety-nine percent 5 of the condenser fan motors are the standard condenser 6 fan motors. I mean, it's a pretty rare option for 7 this ducting. But on evaporative fan motors, in what 8 I would classify as light commercial, 20 tons and 9 less, majority are standard motors, same ones. And 10 what I consider 20 tons and up, and in a lot of our 11 cases, that means way above what DOE is testing, same 12 product family, it is a customer-provided static, so 13 it's -- there are like three kind of -- three kind of 14 core sizes in each kind of cabinet, and it's customer15 provided static. 16 There is -- every single one of those units 17 going down the line have a division sheave and motor 18 on them so that they are customized for their static 19 performance, just like they said, coming in through a 20 selection program, here's what my building has. Fine. 21 We will pick it for you. You will not have to throw 22 away anything in the field, because otherwise what was

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 115 1 happening, we were sending out a standard motor with 2 sheaves and drives, and they were having to pick their 3 own sheaves and drives in the field from a kit and 4 from other ways and throwing out a bunch of stuff. So 5 that's what the customer can't stand -- and sometimes 6 even throwing away motors half the time. So they 7 can't stand the fact that there was that. 8 So now, you know, what our solution is in 9 the industry is we're customizing it for them, and it 10 tends to be in the upper sizes. I'm not saying it 11 doesn't happen in some overlap in some of the smaller, 12 but it tends to be more in that upper sizes. 13 And what we're doing right now for AHRI 14 certification is we are picking it so that it hits 15 that static. It is -- tends to be the lower 16 horsepower motor for that particular product family, 17 because in order to hit that static, it's -- or hit 18 that test static, that's what you've got to do. 19 I can't give you a number, what that is, 20 John. I really don't. 21 MR. EISNER: Mike. 22 MR. RIVEST: Beyond the selection of the

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 116 1 smaller motor, are there other manufacturer-installed 2 accessories that would need to be ordered at -- with 3 the, quote, base unit to be able to test it? So, for 4 example, are there ways of varying the speed? 5 MS. HOOTMAN: This is Jill from Trane. 6 Mike, what it pretty much is, is two or three 7 different actual digits in the model number. 8 MR. RIVEST: Uh-huh. 9 MS. HOOTMAN: So one is horsepower, and then 10 second or third or fourth digit is explaining whether 11 they need speed control, whether they need VFDs, you 12 know, all those various -- so there's another whole 13 selection for that. What -- there's another -- a 14 third selection for what kind of -- 15 MR. RIVEST: Right. I understand, but what 16 I mean is let's say we want to test a unit and you're 17 not involved with that selection. And I assume it's, 18 you know, a third-party manufacturer here. How -- 19 would the spec sheets provided to DOE with the 20 certification program include all the nomenclature, 21 and that would be required for us to put that unit on 22 a test bed and get the static and the airflow that we

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 117 1 need to hit your levels? 2 MS. HOOTMAN: So you're saying like when 3 we're providing the data, what -- however we're going 4 to provide it, somehow we're saying what that exact 5 model number is and we've configured it through these 6 systems and said what that is? 7 MR. RIVEST: That would help. 8 MS. HOOTMAN: It's a possibility. 9 MR. RIVEST: It doesn't have to be -- 10 MS. HOOTMAN: Yeah. 11 MR. RIVEST: -- like the whole number -- 12 MS. HOOTMAN: That's -- 13 MR. RIVEST: -- but how do we make sure it's 14 configured properly and we didn't -- 15 MS. HOOTMAN: Right. 16 MR. RIVEST: -- overlook anything? 17 MS. HOOTMAN: That's a possibility. Because 18 otherwise you are -- these software systems are 19 usually only available through our salespeople, I 20 would say in the most part, you know, or select 21 customers that you have in some kind of -- so they're 22 not easy tools to get a hold of. They're not readily

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 118 1 available. They're not out on the Internet; you know, 2 those kind of things. 3 MR. RIVEST: Right. 4 MS. HOOTMAN: They have a lot of rules in 5 them around, "Oh, no, you can't pick this. You have 6 to pick that." All the either/ors and ands, you know, 7 are -- there are all the pricing rules and stuff like 8 that in there too. 9 MR. RIVEST: I'm just trying to avoid the 10 situation -- 11 MS. HOOTMAN: But, yeah, you're right. 12 MR. RIVEST: -- where we pick the smallest 13 motor -- 14 MS. HOOTMAN: We could probably do it -- 15 MR. RIVEST: -- and then we're told, "Well, 16 but -- yeah, but you didn't specify this properly. 17 You didn't" -- 18 MS. HOOTMAN: Right. 19 MR. RIVEST: -- "have the adjustable gizmo." 20 Yeah. That's all. Thanks. 21 MR. FLY: This is Mark Fly with AAON. Kind 22 of going onto that, I mean, it can also be, if you're

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Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 07-01-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 119 1 -- especially in the larger size cabinets, the actual 2 fan can change, because a lower static fan might be a 3 larger fan running slower to be optimized for that 4 kind of static, whereas if you're running a high 5 static, you'd want a smaller fan running really fast 6 with a much bigger motor. 7 So, you know, I guess the devil is kind of 8 in the asterisks, which you guys keep referring to, 9 but the problem is if we list it with an asterisk 10 there, what does DOE know how to pick unless it's in 11 some of this auxiliary data that we give you for test 12 unit selection? Because we can't -- if you list the 13 one with the ARI static motor, that unit will not 14 work. You know, that unit will look different in its 15 model strain than one that someone bought for a much 16 higher static. So I don't know how we sort that out 17 with the customers. 18 MR. AMRANE: Karim Amrane, AHRI. I think, 19 talking to the manufacturers here, we have to find a 20 way so that DOE has the information it needs to test 21 as you're doing it today through the AHRI program. So 22 if it needs to be that we will have to provide that

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 120 1 information about the fan, then we'll have to provide 2 that information. That's all. So we'll have to find 3 a way, but I think there's a solution to this -- to 4 this problem. 5 At the same time, John, I know you're 6 concerned about this, but there's no way you can test 7 for all possible -- 8 MR. CYMBALSKY: No, I -- 9 MR. AMRANE: -- application in the field. I 10 mean, you're getting a range of static pressure. 11 There's no way we can test for everything. So that is 12 why we have a test procedure is to have a standard way 13 of doing it. 14 MR. EISNER: Rodney Beever wants to ask a 15 question. Rodney? 16 MR. BEEVER: Yes. Can you hear me? 17 MS. BARHYDT: Yeah. We can hear you. 18 MR. BEEVER: Can you hear me? 19 MS. BARHYDT: Go ahead. 20 MR. BEEVER: Okay. Actually, there's a 21 couple different situations here, sort of talking 22 around things. You have the situation where, number

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 121 1 one, the test procedure for all the units on the 2 condenser side calls for just zero inches of static 3 pressure. And that's fine if you have a prop unit 4 sitting outside. 5 To the one point, if you now move that unit 6 inside and you're going to duct that with a prop fan, 7 then, yes, you have to consider a motor change and 8 possibly a fan change. In some cases, people have 9 actually changed the type of air movement, from a prop 10 fan to a centrifugal, which is going to take a lot 11 more horsepower. 12 The one part of all this that has not come 13 up anywhere, and it's been a big frustration for us as 14 a manufacturer, is that we have equipment that our 15 condensers are ducted all the time. In fact, Carrier 16 has the 50 AH model. And there is no test standard to 17 cover these type products. So for us to reach any 18 efficiency level, the units grow so large they become 19 impractical, and you just can't do it. 20 So there are several questions here that 21 have not been addressed in your discussion. A big 22 question is where do the units fit in to what category

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 122 1 when they are ducted on the condenser side as a 2 standard? 3 MS. BARHYDT: Can you restate that one more 4 time, just making clear whether, when you say 5 "standard," whether you're referring to the efficiency 6 standard, the performance level, or if you're 7 referring to the test procedure standard? 8 MR. BEEVER: Yes to all three. The test 9 procedures specify no external static pressure value 10 for the testing. However, when you move to any type 11 of indoor condensing section, whether it have a prop 12 fan or a centrifugal fan, there should be some 13 specification for external static; i.e., the test 14 standard needs to be -- to be changed. 15 The problem is that, you know, we 16 manufacture units -- and Carrier has the 50 AH unit. 17 I'm not sure who else has other units out there -- 18 that are made as standard with indoor-ducted 19 condensing sections that use centrifugal fans. For us 20 to achieve a 13 SEER, let's say, on our units, the -- 21 it becomes an almost impossible task. It can be done, 22 but the unit sizes grow more than double in order to

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 123 1 get there. 2 So the problem is that there is no category 3 for these units that are built as standard with a 4 ducted condensing section. So it's one thing to have 5 an option, but you need to also have a test procedure 6 that covers it and also a category for those units 7 that are, in some cases, like in Europe, referred to 8 as double-ducted. 9 MR. WHITWELL: This is Bob Whitwell from 10 Carrier. Since he mentioned Carrier product here, 11 that product, we test it with zero static -- external 12 static, so we just test it with the -- with the motor 13 at zero static on the outdoor side. 14 MR. BEEVER: Yes, but there's also 15 statements that say that products should not be tested 16 in ways in which they will not be installed or 17 utilized. And these units are never installed or 18 utilized with zero external static. 19 MR. CYMBALSKY: We're taking good notes, 20 Rodney. 21 MR. STARR: This is Louis Starr with NEEA. 22 It seems like they could use maybe a pretty typical

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 124 1 external static pressure, which I'm guessing might be 2 like a half-inch, something you do in furnaces. Is 3 there a possibility of doing something like that for a 4 ducted one? I'm assuming, you know, the range of what 5 external static pressures are kind of in a fixed 6 range, so perhaps doing something like that might make 7 sense. 8 MR. BEEVER: There needs to be some 9 provision because the -- those products that are 10 ducted on the condenser side are fighting an uphill 11 battle in order to be on an equal playing field. 12 MR. AMRANE: This is Karim Amrane with AHRI. 13 I think a solution to your -- to your issue could be 14 in a waiver from the test procedure, if it's not 15 addressed in the test procedure, but that's how you 16 should be addressing it. 17 MR. BEEVER: We tried that, and DOE denied 18 that to three different companies, that they don't 19 recognize the double-ducted arrangement. We've been 20 down that path. 21 MS. ARMSTRONG: Can you remind me which 22 company you're with?

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 125 1 MR. BEEVER: This is United Cool Air. And 2 we even met with DOE on this. So it's been a very 3 frustrating couple of years because we can't find a 4 way of certifying or fitting in any place where we 5 feel that we're fully meeting the law. We think we're 6 meeting the intent of the law, but it doesn't fit. 7 There's too many other questions. 8 MS. ARMSTRONG: Right. So this is Ashley. 9 I think I've met with you before. 10 MR. BEEVER: Yes. Uh-huh. 11 MS. ARMSTRONG: Yeah. So I can say with a 12 hundred percent certainty, DOE did not deny a waiver 13 request because -- purely because a unit needed to be 14 ducted from the outdoor side. We can work through 15 that. So I just want to clarify that. We're not 16 denying a waiver request specifically for that issue. 17 There were a variety of issues that needed to be dealt 18 with to work through. We can still work with you on 19 that process if that's what you are seeking. 20 MR. BEEVER: Well, we did get denied for our 21 request for a waiver, but I think what we're looking 22 for here is underneath this category, whether or not a

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 126 1 special classification can be created to cover these 2 type of products. Now, granted, it's a very, very 3 small percentage of the overall market. I mean, 4 you've got, you know, people that, you know, with all 5 their other commercial products, are cranking out 6 hundreds of units a week. You know, we're not doing 7 that and never will. You know, it's a niche-type 8 product, but there's no standard or definition that 9 covers it. 10 MS. ARMSTRONG: So just to clarify a couple 11 things, one is I think there's a lot of things to 12 consider here. DOE doesn't have a position, 13 obviously, but we welcome additional input from you 14 guys, and we are going to need additional input from 15 you guys. 16 To answer the point on the phone, I mean, 17 part of it's going to come down to whether you also 18 offer a standard option, and as Bob pointed out, what 19 Carrier does is tests without -- non-ducted at zero 20 static. 21 And that's going to be -- you know, for DOE 22 to consider something like that, we wouldn't just

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 127 1 create a separate class and say, "You're not covered 2 or subject to standard." We'd say, "We will test in 3 this configuration, and the rating needs to be based 4 on this configuration, and that's what needs to meet 5 the standards." 6 You know, to the extent that excludes, you 7 know, testing with additional ducting or multiple 8 statics or higher statics from the condenser, then 9 that's something we could consider. But if you don't 10 have a standard option, then you would need to come 11 get a waiver to be able to test at a different static 12 and with a different ducting configuration. 13 MR. BEEVER: Well, it goes beyond that, and, 14 you know, we've written it up once -- 15 MS. ARMSTRONG: And the standards are -- 16 MR. BEEVER: -- and we'll do it again. 17 MS. ARMSTRONG: -- congressional, so nothing 18 we can do there. 19 MR. BEEVER: Yeah. Okay. But, you know -- 20 MS. ARMSTRONG: I mean, that -- 21 MR. BEEVER: -- I will write it all up 22 again.

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 128 1 MS. ARMSTRONG: -- that was our conversation 2 previously. 3 MR. BEEVER: Yeah. Yeah. But we still 4 never got any resolution. So I will have to write 5 this all up again and submit it. 6 MR. EISNER: All right. Should we -- do we 7 want to put this off as a short -- 8 MR. CYMBALSKY: That's not an issue. 9 MR. EISNER: No, no, I mean, the discussion 10 on this issue, do we want to wait for more information 11 to come back, or do we want to talk about this after 12 lunch? 13 MR. CYMBALSKY: I think, Karim, if you could 14 round up the troops on (inaudible). 15 MR. EISNER: He can settle it over lunch. 16 Should we give you an extra ten minutes? All right. 17 Why don't we come back -- 18 MR. CYMBALSKY: It'll be the last minute 19 that's important. 20 MR. EISNER: Come back at two. 21 (Whereupon, a lunch recess was taken.) 22 MR. EISNER: All right, can we get going?

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 129 1 MR. AMRANE: Karim Amrane, AHRI. On 2 the issue of the condenser fan motor, as well as the 3 evaporator fan -- I mean, the same issue, I think one 4 solution could be for manufacturer to specify the fan 5 when they certify the product with DOE. And say, 6 well, this is the fan that is used for the 7 application, that can be tested or going to test 8 procedure. And that could be a way for you to test 9 the appropriate unit. So that's a 10

-- 11 MR. CYMBALSKY: I have an opinion on this 12 one. So, again, it goes back to my basic issue of, 13 okay, so you specified the fan that goes with the one 14 that gets tested. But if that one's never the one 15 that goes out in the field, but you're going to make 16 representations that all the ones that have maybe an 17 oversized fan that are maybe losing an entire EER from 18 the rating. But that's the problem I have with this. 19 So I appreciate you're trying to say, okay, this is 20 the combination that'll work for the test. The 21 problem is when it gets in the field, we don't know -- 22 the customer doesn't know what the EER is that he got

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 130 1 with that fan or motor inside the unit. 2 MR. AMRANE: Karim Amrane, AHRI. I don't 3 think that's exactly true. I think the customer will 4 know exactly what he's getting, because again, those 5 units are spec'd. They're not -- I mean, it's not 6 like you and me buying the unit; it's done through an 7 engineering firm and it's spec'd that way. So they 8 know exactly what they are getting. 9 MR. DOPPEL: Paul Doppel with Mitsubishi. I 10 think the decision is either you're going to get a 11 high efficiency unit or a standard efficiency. And 12 then everything else that you get is to meet the 13 specifications of that building. So that's the 14 efficiency decision: standard efficiency or high 15 efficiency. Then everything else falls into place. 16 And so, you know, it's just to meet the needs of the 17 building, that's the important criteria. 18 MR. CYMBALSKY: Right, so if you spec the 19 unit to a ten, let's say that's the standard, but then 20 you throw in this oversized motor, what happens to the 21 EER normally? Everything else equal, what will 22 happen?

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 131 1 MR. DOPPEL: This is Paul Doppel. You know, 2 the important thing, and we keep, you know, you keep 3 wanting to push us into this installed efficiency. 4 And this is a test room efficiency. That's all this 5 was set up as test room efficiency with 6 characteristics that would be, you know, if there's a 7 standard building configuration that they've set up. 8 And so that's the primary criteria. And, you know, we 9 just have to keep that line between installed and 10 what's in the test room. 11 MR. WHITWELL: Yeah. Bob Whitwell from 12 Carrier. If I could just add to that. 13 So one thing we have to keep in mind that 14 the test procedure here is, at least when we're 15 talking about the condenser motor, it's zero static, 16 right, there's no static requirement in the test 17 procedure for the outdoor, because that's -- and 18 that's 99 percent of the applications are going to be 19 that way. So that's the test EE efficiency is with 20 zero external static on the outdoor. And then the 21 customer, if he has an application where he has a 22 ducted outdoor, he needs to duct the outdoor air; he

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 132 1 will go into the literature, he'll pick the higher 2 power fan motor, and he'll be able to see in there 3 based on the fan performance tables what the impact is 4 going to be on the efficiency of his product. So he 5 will be able to determine what the efficiency impact 6 of that is from that data that's provided by the 7 manufacturer. 8 MR. CYMBALSKY: But all else equal, same 9 test procedure, same everything, but the only thing 10 different is swapping out that component. The 11 consumer, if you were designing the original one to a 12 ten, the consumer's going to get less than a ten in 13 the test procedure conditions. 14 MR. WHITWELL: If he's designing for -- if 15 he's picking a motor that's intended to be used in a 16 ducted application where he needs more power to get 17 the right air flow over the condenser coil, yes, it 18 would be; it's going to draw more power. But if he 19 doesn't, if he applies the, let's say standard motor 20 in that case, he's not going to get the right air flow 21 over the condenser. So it will also -- it'll probably 22 perform less efficiently then than it would when he

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 133 1 puts the right fan motor on and gets the right air 2 flow. 3 MS. ARMSTRONG: I mean -- 4 MS. MEYERS: This is Karen with Rheem. You 5 know, we've agreed to not test -- 6 MS. ARMSTRONG: The issue isn't this one. 7 MS. MEYERS: -- some things that actually 8 give us a positive impact compared to efficiency 9 installed. But if it gives us -- if it might be a 10 slight negative to efficiency, then it's not like 11 we're being fair here. Because there's a lot of 12 things that actually improve the installed efficiency. 13 And we've agreed, so it's, you know, we're not going 14 both ways here. 15 MR. CYMBALSKY: Right. And I think we've 16 done the same; we've give lots of things that are 17 negative from what I can tell that we've been through 18 so far. It's just this one in particular I take pause. 19 MS. ARMSTRONG: I don't think it's -- so 20 it's not the condenser fan motor that's so much at 21 issue. I mean that's -- 22 MR. WHITWELL: That's what we're talking

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 134 1 about, that's why it's a -- 2 MS. ARMSTRONG: I mean, we're kind of 3 mixing, right. And that was my fault at the 4 beginning. I don't think the condenser fan motor is 5 what the Department has an issue with. Zero static 6 non-ducted, I mean the test procedure specifies that. 7 Otherwise, you'll be required to get a waiver. It's 8 not that one, it's the other motor. I mean that's 9 really what it comes down to, that's where we're left. 10 MR. WHITWELL: The other, meaning the 11 evaporator side? 12 MS. ARMSTRONG: The evaporator side. 13 MR. WHITWELL: But remember, I mean part of 14 the reasons -- Bob Whitwell from Carrier again -- I 15 mean, one of the reasons -- there's two reasons why 16 people would specify a higher powered motor for the 17 evaporator. One is because they have an application 18 that has longer, more duct work and requires that in 19 order to operate against the duct work. Another 20 reason is where they have options on the unit, and 21 they could be options that provide more utility to the 22 customer and those options cause internal -- decrease

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 135 1 the internal static pressure, and so they need the 2 higher static motor when a certain combination of 3 options are included. 4 MS. ARMSTRONG: Right. Paul, to your point 5 earlier about this is a test room, you know, test 6 procedure and test room efficiency. I don't think the 7 Department disagrees with that. But it should be a 8 test room efficiency that's somewhat representative of 9 installed conditions. 10 MR. DOPPEL: It is. 11 MS. ARMSTRONG: And so if we're getting to 12 the point where -- 13 MR. DOPPEL: It is. 14 MS. ARMSTRONG: -- the majority of motors, I 15 realize, you know, there's a differentiation maybe 16 between less than 20 and above 20, but if you're 17 telling me the majority are motors for certain types 18 of equipment or certain ranges are not the standard 19 motor, they're really these higher oversized motors, 20 then that speaks to the fact that the static and the 21 test procedure is not representative of installed 22 conditions.

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 136 1 MR. DOPPEL: But -- 2 MS. ARMSTRONG: And that's the fundamental 3 issue. 4 MR. DOPPEL: Yeah. Paul Doppel, Mitsubishi. 5 You know, you have to go back to the foundation of the 6 test standard. And what was done was there was a 7 sample building was set up. And I don't remember the 8 dimensions, but there's like specific duct work. And, 9 you know, I've got into this when we had a meeting at 10 Jill Hootman's place in Nashville with Dick Lore to 11 talk about VRF line links compared to external static 12 pressure. And so we negotiated to try to come up 13 with, you know, what was equitable for the VRF line 14 links compared to the -- or the duct work that was on 15 the unitary systems. So the test standard is set up 16 for a specific building. 17 MS. ARMSTRONG: Absolutely. 18 MR. DOPPEL: And what you're trying to do is 19 push it over into installed efficiency. And that's -- 20 MS. ARMSTRONG: I don't think that's true. 21 MR. DOPPEL: -- totally. That's totally. 22 MS. ARMSTRONG: I don't think anyone's

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 137 1 trying to do that. I think what John's trying to make 2 a point is, is that standard buildings should be 3 representative -- I realize standard means it's not 4 representative of anything. But to the extent 5 possible, it should be representative somewhat of 6 field conditions. Our statute requires that. Sorry, 7 I mean, that's -- 8 MR. DOPPEL: Well, that was the original 9 intent of the standard. 10 MS. ARMSTRONG: I get that. But all these 11 exclusions seem to also bring up the fact that maybe 12 that's not the case anymore. And that's what the 13 Department's challenge is, right; we're trying to 14 understand, okay, what is really standard, what is 15 really typical, and make that distinction. It's not 16 that we're trying to move you to an installed 17 efficiency, or move you to rating every single vast 18 combination there is out there. But we need to be 19 able to understand what is standard. And if standard 20 is something that is never sold, or is never 21 representative of anything, is that okay? And that's 22 something the Department has to answer.

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 138 1 MR. DOPPEL: Well, I think what you would be 2 pushing the manufactures to, is that the manufacturers 3 would go back to building standard units, and then the 4 building, folks in the building, the contractors would 5 end up having to put all that stuff in. So the end 6 result is the same. You know, you don't have a ten 7 EER system anymore. But it's not because the 8 manufacturer did something; it's because of the guy in 9 the field. And there are so many things that are done 10 in the field that change the efficiency of the system. 11 MS. ARMSTRONG: Sure. 12 MR. DOPPEL: You know, so you're almost 13 trying to hold the manufacturers to making sure that 14 the installed efficiency meets the minimum. And 15 that's not the intent of the test standard. 16 MS. ARMSTRONG: I don't know that -- I think 17 we're trying to understand, you know, every piece of - 18 - well, those units distributed in commerce are 19 supposed to meet the standard. And we're trying -- 20 you're asking the Department to consider certain 21 exclusions to that. And we're trying to understand 22 what the breadth of those exclusions would be.

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 139 1 MR. FLY: This is Mark Fly with AAON. If 2 we're going to go back and redefine rather than a 3 quarter inch, say one inch of static is the 4 appropriate level that seems to be the average of how 5 they all get applied, then the number has to change. 6 You know, then 13 SEER isn't 13 SEER anymore. 7 MS. ARMSTRONG: Understand. 8 MR. FLY: You know, so all those numbers go 9 down. And nobody wants to go down. 10 MS. ARMSTRONG: I understand. 11 MR. FLY: You know, we all -- 12 MS. ARMSTRONG: I understand. I'm not 13 saying -- that's probably the long term solution, to 14 evaluate the test procedure to see if there's a need 15 for things to change. 16 MR. FLY: But if you put a 20 horsepower 17 motor in a unit that needs a 2 horsepower motor to run 18 efficiently, you're so far off the efficiency curve 19 during that test in a situation where it'll never 20 apply; it's going to be overly burdensome to the 21 rating of that piece of equipment. So that's I think 22 the manufacturer's point.

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 140 1 MS. ARMSTRONG: Right. 2 MR. THARP: This is Rusty Tharpe with 3 Goodman. I'll throw in that for my company, the light 4 commercial products that we make -- actually the 5 higher static motors is more the exception, is 6 definitely the exception more than that rule. So it 7 is not all manufacturers. It's not a high percentage 8 in the smaller tonnage range. When you get to the 9 bigger tonnage stuff a much higher percentage is the 10 high static motors or motor options. But when you're 11 talking, I think what we call light commercial or 12 small and maybe large, small and large range, the 13 smaller you go, the higher the percentage is of more 14 of a standard unit being typical. 15 MS. ARMSTRONG: And so you're -- I think 16 collectively, Karim, your guys' proposal is to certify 17 the motor and/or motor drive system that is needed to 18 meet the rate of conditions, that you use to certify 19 your rate of conditions. 20 MR. AMRANE: That can be tested according to 21 test procedure, yes. 22 MS. ARMSTRONG: Well, they can all be tested

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 141 1 according to the test procedure, but -- 2 MR. AMRANE: No, the test procedure today 3 does not account for a high. The static pressure is 4 specified in the test procedure. 5 MS. ARMSTRONG: Well, the minimum static is 6 specified. You can go higher. 7 MR. WHITWELL: No, there's a minus zero plus 8 point 05. The latest version of the standard has a 9 minus zero plus point 05 tolerance on the 340/360. 10 The AHRI test procedure. 11 MR. HON: Question: is that the test 12 procedure specified in the DOE Code? 13 MS. ARMSTRONG: I don't know which version 14 he's referencing exactly. But the AHRI test 15 procedures, 340/360 is the one incorporated by 16 reference. I just don't know if it's that specific 17 version. 18 MR. WHITWELL: Yeah, it's 2007 with addendum 19 A and B, Karim? 20 MR. AMRANE: Yep. DOE has -- 21 MS. ARMSTRONG: We have '07, but no 22 addendums.

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 142 1 MR. SACHS: Ashley? 2 MS. ARMSTRONG: Yeah. 3 MR. SACHS: Harvey Sachs. Just an 4 underlying question with reference to your comment on 5 the long term evolution of the rating method. How 6 will we get to the point that we feel we have a good 7 enough understanding of installed ESP to do that 8 calibration? I'm really asking John that question, 9 because it verges into things that are above our pay 10 grade. But it's a serious question that seems like 11 we're talking about a dream, given budget priorities. 12 MS. ARMSTRONG: Yeah. I mean, to me, that 13 is an issue for another day. I mean, that is 14 something -- as Mark pointed out, the static, and the 15 standards, and the levels are all intertwined there. 16 So if it's something the Department was going to 17 reconsider in a test procedure rulemaking, it would be 18 something we would consider at the same time we were 19 doing a standard rulemaking. 20 MR. SACHS: Again, this is Harvey. I'm not 21 sure exactly how close the tracking is, because 22 there's some other options with commercial equipment.

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 143 1 But just a reminder that sensible heat ratio is 2 dependent upon that, will vary with that gap between 3 the test static and the install static. This is not a 4 trivial matter to many people. 5 MS. ARMSTRONG: No, not at all. Well, the 6 easy one, condenser fan motors, I think there's no 7 issue. I think from the Department's perspective, we 8 have no issue with excluding -- I won't say excluding 9 wholesale. You would have to have a standard option 10 available to test, or test the non-ducted version at 11 zero static. Just because if all your product 12 offering is ducted, you're not excluded from the 13 regulations wholesale. 14 MR. SACHS: Ashley, this is Harvey again. I 15 know nothing about this class of air cooled ducted 16 condenser units. But somehow I'm reminded of the 17 waiver and eventually class that went to the 18 residential small diameter high velocity, where the 19 test method specified a high enough external static to 20 prevent loopholing. And I wonder if that sort of 21 thing might be a path for these people. 22 MS. ARMSTRONG: It could be an option.

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 144 1 Yeah, I mean, similarly -- well, right now, the 2 standards in effect are congressional standards. So 3 while we could change the test method, we cannot 4 change the levels. But longer term, that could be a 5 solution, definitely. 6 Okay, we'll move on, because the last issue 7 happens to be oversized motors. So we'll come full 8 circle here by the time we get to it. Steam hydronic 9 heat options. 10 I don't think -- is that the right 11 description? I don't think that's the right 12 description or not. Sorry. We'll fix the 13 description. Assuming that there is multiple -- I 14 think this is just the one that has multiple heat 15 options. Is that correct? 16 MS. HOOTMAN: Yes. 17 MS. ARMSTRONG: And we only wanted to test 18 in a certain opt configuration; is that correct? 19 MR. THARP: No, I think that's different. 20 Rusty Tharp with Goodman. I think what you're 21 referring to, Ashley, is the multiple gas heat 22 options.

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 145 1 MS. ARMSTRONG: Oh, okay. 2 MR. THARP: Or multiple electric heat 3 options. The steam hydronic heat is typically a coil, 4 a round tube plate fin type of coil that's put inside 5 the air path. 6 MR. WHITWELL: Yes, it's in the series with 7 the evaporator. 8 MR. THARP: Yes. 9 MS. ARMSTRONG: And so you just don't -- 10 instead of, what was the instead of option? 11 MR. THARP: Well, the option alternate 12 typically here is for heat they can either use 13 electric resistance heat -- 14 MS. ARMSTRONG: So you're just proposing to 15 test the electric resistance only, not the hydronic 16 coil. 17 MR. THARP: Correct. 18 MS. ARMSTRONG: Okay, that's fine. We would 19 issue testing guidance that says that. Hot gas 20 reheats the same way. We can issue test procedure 21 guidance or enforcement guidance that we will not test 22 on a hot gas reheat item. But like I said, with all

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 146 1 these there must be some type of standard option 2 available that we can clearly distinguish which ones 3 have and which ones don't. 4 So for the next one, a couple of things. 5 One is for units that have barometric release, powered 6 exhaust, we will issue test procedure guidance, or 7 will consider issuing test procedure guidance that the 8 dampers must be fully sealed for testing. So in other 9 words, those units would be subject. However, if it's 10 something that has powered returned air, so it adds 11 additional power, we would not choose those. That's 12 how we are distinguishing between them, with some type 13 of powered exhaust. 14 MR. EISNER: Any issues or concerns? 15 MR. THARP: Rusty Tharp with Goodman. So 16 DOE would not order a special unit with a powered 17 exhaust. I guess the concern is that there's an 18 additional device that could cause some additional 19 resistance over the regular fan, the normal air moving 20 device if the powered exhaust or power return air 21 device is present in the system. And again, these are 22 usually custom units. So if you're going to get

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 147 1 something with powered exhaust, power deterrence, it's 2 normally going to be custom ordered anyway. You're 3 not going to find too many of these off the shelf. 4 MS. ARMSTRONG: Our intent was to 5 differentiate between those that had like an 6 additional power source, versus those that just use 7 dampers. So in other words, dampers that you could 8 seal. That was the idea. I don't know if there is a 9 differentiation factor. 10 MS. HOOTMAN: This is Jull from Trane. 11 Powered return air is in the airstream. So you can't 12 really seal it off, because it's in the return 13 airstream but causes a resistance. 14 MS. ARMSTRONG: Right. But is there a type 15 of unit that would ever not have powered exhaust, not 16 have powered return air, but would have some type of 17 damper type relief that could require sealing? 18 MS. HOOTMAN: Yes. 19 MS. ARMSTRONG: Those are the two we're 20 trying to distinguish between. So if it has power, it 21 would go in one category versus those that don't have 22 power, and you could just seal the dampers for

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 148 1 testing. 2 MR. JOHNSON: Fine with that. Tom Johnson. 3 I'm totally confused. Okay. Barometric relief, you 4 can close the damper and run the unit on a test. 5 MS. ARMSTRONG: Yep. 6 MR. JOHNSON: I have no issue with that. 7 MS. ARMSTRONG: That's it. 8 MR. JOHNSON: Powered exhaust, I think what 9 I hear you saying, okay, close the damper, seal it 10 off. But make sure the powered exhaust doesn't run 11 during the test. There's a power; there's a fan. 12 MS. ARMSTRONG: I was actually saying not to 13 test powered exhaust or powered return air. 14 MR. JOHNSON: Okay, so you're saying not to 15 test. 16 MS. ARMSTRONG: But barometric relief, we 17 would seal. 18 MR. JOHNSON: Well, okay. Then you 19 categorized them different then. 20 MS. ARMSTRONG: I didn't know the right way 21 to characterize them. But the three, if I would do 22 it, I would do two buckets and then the third one

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 149 1 would be subject two. 2 MR. JOHNSON: Okay. 3 MR. EISNER: Next issue? 4 MS. ARMSTRONG: Yeah. Is that okay? Same 5 thing with fresh air dampers fully sealed, but they 6 would be subject to the program. So we would clarify 7 in the test procedure that the dampers must be sealed. 8 MR. EISNER: Any comments? Everybody's 9 okay? Next issue is high efficiency air filtration. 10 MS. ARMSTRONG: So just like the other 11 filters we've been talking about, standard air filter 12 will need to be defined. We would issue test 13 procedure guidance that the standard air filter be 14 used for testing. 15 MR. EISNER: Everybody okay? Do we want to 16 discuss how it's defined? 17 MS. ARMSTRONG: I think you guys discussed 18 it last time. It has an MERV rating of rate. 19 MR. EISNER: MERV six? 20 MS. ARMSTRONG: Yeah, MERV eight. 21 MR. WHITWELL: The MERV eight is an ASHRAE 22 62.1 requirement, which is not a standard requirement

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 150 1 for all markets. Right? 2 MS. ARMSTRONG: But can your rating be based 3 on that? I mean, is that close enough to standard for 4 all markets that if we're trying to standardize across 5 the board? 6 MR. THARP: Rusty Tharp with Goodman. I'd 7 suggest that perhaps MERV four to MERV six would be 8 the standard. 9 MR. WHITWELL: I think that's closer to what 10 I would say is the standard. 11 MR. HUNT: This is Marshall Hunt, PG. 12 MS. ARMSTRONG: Go ahead. 13 MR. HUNT: Hello. 14 MS. ARMSTRONG: Go ahead. 15 MR. HUNT: I recommend MERV six; that's what 16 we're using out here in California on our building 17 standard. So no unit could get installed unless it 18 was MERV six. 19 MS. ARMSTRONG: Okay. Is MERV six okay with 20 everyone for the purposes of rating? 21 MR. THARP: If you go to Home Depot, and 22 Lowe's, et cetera, MERV four is the standard off the

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 151 1 shelf, typically. 2 MS. ARMSTRONG: Can you buy filters for 3 commercial HVAC at Home Depot and Lowe's? 4 MR. WHITWELL: Yeah. 5 MS. ARMSTRONG: I was wondering. 6 MR. THARP: So that would be our suggestion. 7 MR. SACHS: Harvey Sachs, ACEEE. My memory 8 is that as I capture dirt, my filtration efficiency 9 goes up and my effective MERV rating may or may not go 10 up, but certainly my ESP goes up. So it seems to me 11 that even though this was a lab test, that airing on 12 the side of the MERV six instead of the four is likely 13 to be a little more representative. I don't think 14 it's an enormous penalty when you're testing. 15 MR. THARP: How about if we give you MERV 16 six and you give us static motors? 17 MR. CYMBALSKY: I don't know who MERV is, 18 but I don't like him. 19 MR. SACHS: Will that come with some future 20 draft choices? 21 MR. HUNT: The question would be in 22 California if you rate with the MERV four, what is

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 152 1 your efficiency to meet our standards, do we derate 2 your equipment? 3 MR. THARP: This is Rusty. It goes back to 4 what's a test standard versus an application standard. 5 And that's something that seems as we talk more and 6 more that needs to be discussed at some point. 7 MR. CYMBALSKY: So my thinking is if they 8 were buying it out at Home Depot, that's like 9 something that's being done in the field but not in 10 the test lab. So you would test it at MERV six, right. 11 But once the end user has the unit, I mean, our 12 authority at that point, I could put whatever filter I 13 want in my house, too. 14 MR. THARP: Rusty Tharp. Some of our 15 product I think is shipped without filters at all and 16 we allow the end consumer to put in whatever they 17 choose. So some manufacturers choose to do that also. 18 So it's up to the end user whether they put in a 4, a 19 12 a 16 or what they put in. 20 MS. BARHYDT: Right. But as we discussed 21 earlier this is supposed to be standardized, so we 22 have to pick a number.

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 153 1 MS. HOOTMAN: And this is Jill from Trane. 2 Marshall, you know, it's conceivable and many people 3 do change out for California only. In other words, we 4 have California only units, just like you have 5 California only cars. 6 MR. HUNT: Thank you, we appreciate it. 7 MR. STARR: This is Louis Starr. The other 8 part, if they're designing in a lot of buildings the 9 62.1 that has the MERV eight, you start to wonder how 10 much -- if they're complying with some of the 11 requirements to 62 that that's carrying through in the 12 codes. So just a thought. I mean, it starts to 13 affect the market share as well. 14 MR. AMRANE: Karim Amrane, AHRI. I mean, 15 this requirement has just been put into 62. So by the 16 time it's going to be adopted we're talking a few 17 years down the road. 18 MR. JOHNSON: Tom Johnson. Just a point of 19 clarification. I know we're talking about unitary 20 stuff here. But when you get to water source heat 21 pump it's a MERV three filter is standard. You don't 22 need the higher six or eight, or something like that.

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 154 1 So same thing. 2 MS. ARMSTRONG: Yeah, we had that for the MP 3 tax. 4 MR. JOHNSON: Okay. I just want to make 5 sure we keep that in mind. 6 MS. ARMSTRONG: We have the MERV three for 7 those. 8 MR. DOPPEL: (Inaudible). 9 MS. ARMSTRONG: What would you have? 10 COURT REPORTER: Microphone? 11 MR. DOPPEL: It's kind of a MERV four. Paul 12 Doppel with Mitsubishi. The VRF non-ducted indoors 13 generally would have a MERV four. 14 MR. EISNER: So what is the suggestion for 15 DOE to do? 16 MR. SACHS: Harvey Sachs. Picking up 17 Karim's suggestion or observation that the MERV six is 18 just now going in, and -- 19 MS. BARHYDT: Eight is going. 20 MR. SACHS: Eight, I'm sorry. It seems that 21 six is a conservative number. Because there will be a 22 lot of places through a large fracture of the service

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 155 1 life of the machines that will be made that will be 2 running when MERV eight would be required of new 3 equipment. So we're making a political decision and 4 it seems to me that six is more likely to be 5 representative of the conditions under which this 6 equipment will operate than four. I'd also note that 7 in my experience most of the commercial water source 8 stuff is going in with pretty limited duct runs. It's 9 basically its own equipment. So it doesn't have quite 10 the same problems as a lot of the call it multi-room 11 or multi-zone air source commercial stuff. So I don't 12 think the -- my instinct is that the MERV three for 13 water source is probably not a good comparison. 14 MR. MYERS: This is Frank Myers with PVI. 15 I'm curious as to what most manufacturers use today in 16 terms of the filter that they have in during their 17 testing. Because it seems to me we could very easily 18 get into a situation where the filter is increasing 19 the stringency of the test. And the levels were set 20 with whatever was at the day that it was set. And we 21 should be remembering that as we're trying to pick a 22 filter here that may require an increased efficiency.

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 156 1 MS. ARMSTRONG: Technically, you're asking 2 us to include all these exclusions to levels that were 3 already set. 4 MR. MYERS: This is Frank Myers, PVI again. 5 I understand that, Ashley. I was just curious as to 6 what the manufacturers have been testing and rating 7 their equipment to, what filtration level, so if we're 8 changing something we know what we're changing from. 9 MS. ARMSTRONG: I don't know. 10 MS. HOOTMAN: This is Jill Hootman from 11 Trane. 12 MR. AMRANE: It's probably from the spec, I 13 would guess. 14 MS. HOOTMAN: Over this product range, which 15 ranges from 3 to 63-tons the standard filter can be 16 anything from a MERV four to a MERV eight. 17 MR. SACHS: Six. 18 MS. HOOTMAN: So my point is that the 19 smaller units, on the smaller tonnages with a whole 20 lot less duct work, it's very common to have four. 21 Than it is for a 63-ton unit that will have a lot more 22 duct work, a lot more static, and you'll commonly put

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 157 1 an eight in for the standard filter. 2 MR. DOPPEL: So you're proposing a tonnage 3 break between four and six? 4 MS. HOOTMAN: No. Well, I mean, I don't 5 mind, myself; I don't mind compromising at six. 6 MR. CYMBALSKY: How much more costly is it 7 on average? I know it's going to range by the size. 8 But a six versus a four dollar wise for the filter 9 itself? 10 MS. HOOTMAN: Can we talk about cost here? 11 MS. MEYERS: No, we can't talk about that. 12 MR. CYMBALSKY: I mean, are we talking like 13 thousands, are we talking hundreds, tens? 14 MS. HOOTMAN: At the volume we're buying 15 them, yes, you're in thousands. 16 MS. ARMSTRONG: No, I mean, if you just went 17 to Lowe's. 18 MR. CYMBALSKY: No, for either. If I went 19 to Lowe's. 20 MS. ARMSTRONG: As a consumer. 21 MR. CYMBALSKY: I'm sorry, if I went to just 22 buy it.

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 158 1 MS. ARMSTRONG: He's just talking about if 2 you were replacing your filter. 3 MR. CYMBALSKY: Right. If I wanted to buy a 4 four or a six, are we talking few dollars, $10, $20? 5 MS. HOOTMAN: Yeah, they're a few dollars 6 apart. 7 MR. AMRANE: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Just not 8 what you guys buy. 9 MR. EISNER: It sounds to me -- I may be 10 wrong -- that four is going out and eight is coming. 11 Are you going to be continuing to use for many years? 12 MS. HOOTMAN: No. No, no, no, no, no, no. 13 No, four and eight, they're not going out. This is 14 all dependent on the size, physical size of the unit 15 and what the typical application is, and how much duct 16 work is attached to it. So what we put in standard 17 for a small unit is something totally different than 18 we'll put for the big 63-ton that's as big as this 19 room. 20 MR. EISNER: So should the standard be 21 broken down then? 22 MS. HOOTMAN: But to compromise at six is a

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 159 1 compromise and we would have to change some of the 2 small units to have that six in it. 3 MR. EISNER: And there's no way to describe 4 the units that get the four, versus the six, versus 5 the eight, so the standard could have three different 6 levels? 7 MS. ARMSTRONG: Is it worth it I think is 8 more the issue? I mean, that just adds a little 9 complexity. 10 MS. HOOTMAN: Is it worth it? That's a very 11 detailed explanation for you guys to put in there. 12 And I don't know -- 13 MS. ARMSTRONG: Yeah. So I mean, how far 14 off are we on compromising on six? 15 MR. EISNER: Does anybody oppose to four -- 16 I mean to six? Nobody in the room is opposed going 17 with six? 18 MS. ARMSTRONG: For non-VRF, non-P tech, 19 non- water source. 20 MR. DOPPEL: Paul Doppel with Mitsubishi. I 21 just think the manufacturers ought to take into 22 account impact on testing, changing them.

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 160 1 MS. ARMSTRONG: On AEDM? 2 MR. DOPPEL: Four to six. 3 MS. HOOTMAN: Yeah, I understand, because I 4 was just speaking for myself. 5 MR. DOPPEL: Yeah, because that, you know, 6 every little bit, this is one place, you know, and get 7 another place to change, and then before you know it 8 you're five percent is gone. 9 MS. MEYERS: This is Karen Meyers with 10 Rheem. So the change from a four to six would be 11 significant for my company, because we primarily build 12 just only light commercial units. So for my company, 13 this would have a direct impact on every unit that we 14 build. So I'm not saying that we might not agree to 15 go to six, but I certainly can't agree to it right 16 now. I'll have to go back and see what the actual 17 impact is, you know, financially for our units. So, 18 you know, I'm not like Jill who builds a product all 19 the way up to 63-tons. So, you know, this will affect 20 every commercial unit that we build if we go to six. 21 MS. ARMSTRONG: But it's just for your 22 ratings; right? I mean, we're not saying you have to

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 161 1 ship all with a four, or ship all with a six, or ship 2 with -- you ship with what you want; right? I mean, 3 that's just -- if we pick one for verification we will 4 test with a six. Your rating should be based with a 5 six. So the output of your AEDM, assuming you have 6 enough data to substantiate one, would be run with a 7 six. 8 MS. MEYERS: What's the data? 9 MS. ARMSTRONG: I'm not saying it's 10 inconsequential, et cetera, et cetera, from a 11 financial standpoint. But what I am saying is that 12 that's what we're talking about here. 13 MS. MEYERS: But typically, a unit that has 14 high efficiency air filtration on hit also has several 15 other options with it. So that's where I get a 16 little, you know, if it -- 17 MS. ARMSTRONG: Well, we're not testing one 18 with high efficiency air filtration. We're proposing 19 to exclude those and just stay standardizing they need 20 to be a six. 21 MR. AMRANE: Karim Amrane, AHRI. If I may, 22 I think what we're trying to say is that some units

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 162 1 come with a four or come with a six. 2 MS. ARMSTRONG: Yeah. 3 MR. AMRANE: And in each particular case, I 4 think we need to understand better the implication of 5 what it would be to switch to a six, which I don't 6 think that people can probably answer today. 7 MS. ARMSTRONG: Okay. 8 MR. STEM: Mike Stem with Intertek. From a 9 test lab perspective, if it doesn't ship with a filter 10 then we have a penalty, a static penalty that we apply 11 and we test with no filter. So you're talking about 12 changing the test procedure totally? 13 MS. ARMSTRONG: Um-hum. 14 MR. STEM: So we would have to go out and 15 purchase whatever filters would go for each unit with 16 each test? 17 MS. ARMSTRONG: They would be tested with a 18 six, if that's what we agree to. 19 MR. STEM: Okay. 20 MS. ARMSTRONG: Standardize around, yes. 21 They should come shipped with the unit. For 22 verification purposes at least.

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 163 1 MS. HOOTMAN: When we know that you bought 2 the unit from us. I thought there were times when we 3 don't know that. 4 MS. ARMSTRONG: There's going to be both 5 probably. 6 MS. MEYERS: Are you saying that -- 7 MS. ARMSTRONG: We would buy one. We would 8 just buy one at Home Depot or Lowe's, now that I know 9 that I can get them there. With whatever rating we 10 agree upon here. 11 MR. SACHS: I couldn't find one for my 63- 12 ton. 13 MS. ARMSTRONG: I'm pretty sure I can't find 14 a 63-ton at retail anyway, or a test lab to test it 15 with. So I'll be coming to visit Jill anyway. And at 16 that point, I'm pretty sure she can find me a filter. 17 MS. HOOTMAN: And, Harvey, there is like 20 18 20x30s in that unit. 19 MR. EISNER: What I'm hearing is people 20 aren't comfortable with making a decision today; they 21 want to check. Is it okay with everybody if we wait 22 on this one?

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 164 1 Okay. 2 MR. CYMBALSKY: Is this an overnight thing, 3 Karen, or are we talking next set of meetings on that? 4 MS. MEYERS: There's not very many people 5 working this week at Rheem, so I'll try and get you an 6 answer this week. 7 MR. CYMBALSKY: Okay. 8 MS. MEYERS: But it's just dependent up 9 whether I can find the right people to ask. 10 MR. EISNER: Next issue is -- 11 MR. THARP: Just real quick, this is Rusty 12 Tharp from Goodman. The term filter is not even 13 mentioned anywhere in AHRI 340/360. So I don't know 14 that we specify with or without for the test 15 procedure. Again, 340/360. I know residential 210/240 16 specs. If it doesn't have a filter then you add point 17 08. 18 MS. ARMSTRONG: Appendix M does specify. We 19 would be specifying in 431.96, or through guidance, 20 depending on which route we take. 21 MR. EISNER: Okay, any other questions or 22 issues? We'll get back on this one. The next one is

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 165 1 hot gas bypass. 2 MS. ARMSTRONG: No issues here. The 3 Department can issue guidance saying that we won't 4 test units with hot gas bypass. 5 MR. EISNER: Everybody okay, I assume. 6 MS. ARMSTRONG: This obviously would be 7 reconsidered if we ever move to some type of part low 8 metric, like EIR. But follow now for what we're 9 dealing with. 10 MR. EISNER: Okay. Sound traps, sound 11 attenuator. 12 MS. ARMSTRONG: No issues. We're fine with 13 testing will not be performed on units with sounds 14 traps. You must have a unit available for testing 15 without them though. 16 MR. EISNER: No problems? Fire, smoke 17 isolation dampers. 18 MS. ARMSTRONG: Same thing, no issue. There 19 must be a unit available without them. 20 MR. EISNER: Again, no concerns, I assume? 21 Next one is extended wall sleeves. 22 MS. ARMSTRONG: So we talked about this a

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 166 1 little bit earlier on the PTAC slides, so we can skip 2 this one. It's just to issue guidance about testing 3 with a standardized sleeve of 14 inches. 4 MR. EISNER: Everybody's okay? 5 MS. ARMSTRONG: Your slide's coming up. 6 MR. EISNER: UV lights? 7 MS. ARMSTRONG: UV lights, there's no issue. 8 They shouldn't be included. So they either need to be 9 disabled, or if there's a unit that has lights non10 standard, I mean, lights that are not UV lights 11 included, then they would not be subject to -- 12 MR. EISNER: Any issues, concerns? High 13 static indoor blowers, oversized motors? 14 MS. ARMSTRONG: We've come back to the same 15 issue. 16 MR. CYMBALSKY: You want to keep talking 17 about this one? 18 MS. ARMSTRONG: I don't know. As you can 19 tell, this one and the coated coils are the two that I 20 think the Department is most uneasy about. And part 21 of that is because it's hard for us to discern how we 22 would draw the line. How we would tell what a coated

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 167 1 coil is, how we would tell what an oversized blower. 2 I understand Karim's point about they would certify 3 the combination of blower and/or drive system that was 4 used. And that's something we can consider. I don't 5 think the Department's ready to answer to that yet. 6 But to the extent you could help us with that over the 7 next, you know, that's really where we're coming from 8 here. 9 MR. EISNER: Anybody want -- 10 MS. ARMSTRONG: I'm -- we're willing to 11 accept a lot. Those are the two that are sticky ones 12 for us, I think, at this point in time. 13 MR. FLY: This is Mark Fly with AAON, 14 Ashley. 15 I'll make the standard statement I say every 16 time this comes up: I think, going forward, if we look 17 at the test standards, if you look at what the water 18 source heat pump test standard has, they do normalize 19 the external static out of the -- so they have a 20 methodology to account for high static motors. So 21 that might be a way around being able to test with a 22 motor, but yet you get a credit back because it's

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 168 1 intended for a higher static than what was tested at. 2 MS. ARMSTRONG: Yeah, I mean, that's 3 definitely a good idea. I think the Department 4 definitely sees the utility issues and the utility you 5 are providing your customer. We don't want to inhibit 6 that. It's just a matter of finding some middle 7 ground here. 8 MR. STEM: Mike Stem with Intertek. We 9 talked about the ISO corrections a couple weeks ago 10 when we were in here. But if I understand Bob 11 correctly, now we're saying that the static rating has 12 a plus point 05 tolerance too. So we can't go above 13 the minimum static by more than point 05, so that 14 would eliminate the ISO adjustment. So we'd have to 15 decide one way or another. 16 MS. ARMSTRONG: Yep. 17 MR. STEM: Okay. 18 MS. ARMSTRONG: Thank you. 19 MR. EISNER: Other comments or thoughts? Do 20 we want to schedule another time to talk about this, 21 so people know when to be ready, or just put it off to 22 the next meeting complete and raise it again?

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 169 1 MS. BARHYDT: We can touch back in the 2 morning and see if anyone's gotten in any more 3 information. If not, then we'll just resolve those 4 issues at the following meeting. 5 MR. EISNER: And just to reiterate the point 6 DOE's made a number of times during the day. If 7 you've got suggestions it might help if you could 8 craft up a few sentences that we could talk about. 9 And if we put something in context, everybody sees it 10 up on the screen. Okay. 11 MS. ARMSTRONG: So a couple of things. Now, 12 I skipped a couple slides, so I'm just going to go 13 back and touch a couple of issues. One is so on slide 14 14, you know, the list of, for lack of a better term, 15 features and/or considerations for the department, 16 either test procedure or enforcement considerations. 17 This seems to be mostly the list for commercial HVAC. 18 Do they really all apply to SPBUs? I wasn't here for 19 that discussion, so I apologizes. 20 MR. AMRANE: If I may. I mean, this is 21 Karim Amrane with AHRI. I had a discussion, because 22 those manufacturers are represented during this table.

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 170 1 MS. ARMSTRONG: Okay. 2 MR. AMRANE: And I had a discussion with 3 them and they want to have the same definition, the 4 same assumption, because they believe that those will 5 apply to their product as well. But that's their 6 position. 7 MS. ARMSTRONG: Okay. 8 MR. WHITWELL: Ashley. 9 MS. ARMSTRONG: Yeah. 10 MR. WHITWELL: Sorry, Bob Whitwell from 11 Carrier. Before we move on just one other comment on 12 the commercial HVAC. This morning when we were 13 talking about the CRE there was a discussion about 14 general purpose outlet. And we had not included that 15 on our list, but we do have similar type options 16 available on the commercial HVAC as well. So would we 17 treat that the same way? 18 MS. ARMSTRONG: Yeah. Go ahead. 19 MR. RIVEST: This is Mike Rivest. I'm 20 confused why that would even come up. Because I mean, 21 what would you plug in there for your test? 22 MR. WHITWELL: On a rooftop unit, it's for

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 171 1 the service person. 2 MR. RIVEST: No, I don't mean that. I mean, 3 during your test, what is there to test? I mean, we 4 can't assume that they would plug in there; right? 5 MR. WHITWELL: Yeah, if it's a 460 volt, 3- 6 phase, 60 hertz unit, it's 115 volt outlet. 7 MR. RIVEST: No, that's not what I mean. 8 MR. WHITWELL: So there's a -- 9 MR. RIVEST: But to say -- 10 MR. WHITWELL: So there's a transformer in 11 there that's consuming power. 12 MR. RIVEST: There's a transformer, so 13 that's what we're talking about. 14 MR. WHITWELL: Right. 15 MR. RIVEST: Ah, okay. 16 MR. WHITWELL: So it could be and sometimes 17 they're prewired and sometimes they're not prewired, 18 so that the installer can decide, you know, are they 19 going to wire it in through the same source of power 20 that the unit is in, or is it a different source of 21 power? 22 MS. ARMSTRONG: For theory, just to recap,

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 172 1 we did not exclude them. We just said nothing should 2 be plugged into them. Obviously for tests. So a unit 3 that has an external outlet it's just like -- 4 MR. WHITWELL: Okay, I misunderstood. I 5 thought it should not be powered during tests. Which 6 to me means that it's not connected. 7 MALE SPEAKER: I think it said energized. 8 MS. ARMSTRONG: Energized, yeah. 9 MR. WHITWELL: So what would that mean in 10 our case, that the transformer is, if it comes shipped 11 with the wired in then it would be powered? Just 12 trying to understand. 13 MR. RIVEST: Is there even a disconnect on 14 the primary of the transformer? 15 MR. WHITWELL: There may or may not. It 16 probably varies from manufacturer. So there could be 17 a switch, right, there could be a switch or it could 18 be a connection that you could disconnect; right? 19 MR. SACHS: This is Harvey, and I guess I 20 have a question for Bob. I'm hearing this in 21 conjunction. The transformers are only included if I'm 22 at a voltage higher than 230 or higher than 120?

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 173 1 MR. WHITWELL: Higher than 120. 2 MR. SACHS: Higher than 120. 3 MR. WHITWELL: Because it's for a serviceman 4 to plug in his trouble light, or something like that. 5 MR. SACHS: Certainly -- 6 MR. WHITWELL: And so it's not a big issue 7 on the large units. But when we talk about a 3-ton, 8 230 volt, 3-phase unit, you know, it could be 9 significant. 10 MR. SACHS: So such a deal. You put in the 11 Solid State power supply instead of that damn copper 12 coil transformer and we'll take it out. It's really, 13 I think you're saying, as much about the standby power 14 where the only time it's really measurable or really 15 consequential. 16 MR. WHITWELL: Well, it depends on how it's 17 installed, right. I mean it could be on all the time. 18 MR. SACHS: Yeah. No, but if it's on all 19 the time it's pulling a few watts at all -- 20 MR. WHITWELL: Right. 21 MR. SACHS: -- 8760. So aren't the Solid 22 States getting cheap enough now that they're a better

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 174 1 bet for you? 2 MR. WHITWELL: Could be, Harvey; I don't 3 know. So the input on the CRE, again, was that it is - 4

- 5 MS. ARMSTRONG: Not excluded. 6 MR. WHITWELL: Not excluded. Okay, I 7 misunderstood the comment this morning. Okay, thank 8 you. 9 MS. ARMSTRONG: Yeah. 10 MR. MYERS: This is Frank Myers, PVI. Would 11 there be interest in a compromise perhaps if you had 12 it switched to turn the transformer off, or if it was 13 Solid State, then it would not be included? 14 MS. ARMSTRONG: Harvey, that's you. They're 15 trying to compromise with you. 16 MR. SACHS: Thanks, Frank. I'll have to go 17 back to my people on this one. 18 MR. STARR: This is Louis Starr, NEEA. That 19 kind of defeats the purpose if you're just switching, 20 you're putting a switch for a test procedure in there. 21 But most of the time, and actually for the unit 22 manufacturer I don't think you'd want that. Because

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 175 1 then you'll have people from the field calling in 2 complaining that the power supply doesn't work. And 3 when they realize, oh, it's just the switch over there 4 or something. So I can't imagine the equipment 5 manufacturers would like that. 6 MR. SACHS: And bedsides -- this is Harvey - 7 - it'll only be thrown once and that's into the on 8 position. So my people have spoken, though. 9 MR. EISNER: Anything else on this issue? 10 MS. ARMSTRONG: Yeah, so Karim, I'm going to 11 go back to SBVU. So it's hard for the Department to 12 understand why a lot of these may be needed for SBVU 13 applications. I don't know if you want to talk to 14 them further. I mean, they interact with the test 15 procedure differently, too. 16 MR. AMRANE: And maybe -- this is Karim 17 Amrane with AHRI -- and maybe what we need to do what 18 we did with CRE, maybe have a special, you know, maybe 19 two- hour meeting with them and try to go over those. 20 MS. ARMSTRONG: Maybe ask your members what 21 they may want to do and get back to us. 22 MR. AMRANE: Yeah, maybe we can do that,

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 176 1 yeah. 2 MS. ARMSTRONG: Okay. 3 MR. AMRANE: Okay. 4 MS. ARMSTRONG: Thank you. 5 MS. BARHYDT: (Inaudible). 6 MS. ARMSTRONG: Yeah, I mean, the water 7 source ones are basically the same. For the most 8 part, the commercial HVAC they would follow with the 9 exception of I see a couple of extra ones. I'm not 10 ready to discuss those things. 11 MR. EISNER: Everybody okay with these 12 lists? 13 MS. ARMSTRONG: Well, I think we need to 14 probably agree on the commercial HVAC ones first, 15 right, and then go from there. Which we're not ready 16 to do, because we have a couple outstanding things. 17 MR. EISNER: Okay. 18 MS. ARMSTRONG: I think for the most part 19 we're like 90 percent in agreement. 20 MR. AMRANE: Karim Amrane with AHRI. For 21 the computer room A/C -- 22 MS. ARMSTRONG: Yep.

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 177 1 MR. AMRANE: -- you know, I have a suggested 2 definition, which is similar to the HVAC definition as 3 well. 4 MS. ARMSTRONG: Okay. 5 MR. AMRANE: So -- 6 MS. ARMSTRONG: You want to hand it to Cory 7 and she'll type it. Thank you. 8 MR. AMRANE: It's definitely the same; it's 9 just an exception where we (inaudible). 10 MS. TUCKER: Okay. 11 MR. AMRANE: So you can use the same 12 definition, if possible. 13 MS. TUCKER: Got it. 14 MR. DOPPEL: Paul Doppel with Mitsubishi. 15 We haven't really talked about it, but the VRF 16 definition should also include water source heat 17 pumps. And we have it sort of in there, but not 18 really. 19 MS. ARMSTRONG: Okay. So for VRFs -- we'll 20 let Cory finish typing -- but for VRFs it's roughly 21 slide 18 in your package. It says greater than 22 65,000? There's not less than 65,000 3-phase?

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 178 1 MR. DOPPEL: There are, but they're covered. 2 They're single phase. 3 MS. ARMSTRONG: They're all single phase. 4 MR. DOPPEL: Yeah. 5 MS. ARMSTRONG: So they would be subject to 6 the -- 7 MR. DOPPEL: Right. So in our definition, 8 when it says in the same heat rejection medium air or 9 water, there's an implication that there's water 10 source heat pumps. 11 MS. ARMSTRONG: Okay, so water then. 12 MS. BARHYDT: Are you saying you want 13 something more explicit or are you okay with that? 14 MR. DOPPEL: Probably should have something 15 more explicit, just to be sure. 16 MS. ARMSTRONG: And you just adjust what you 17 want? 18 MR. DOPPEL: When it says air or water after 19 that, another parenthesis that would say includes VRF 20 water source heat pumps. 21 MS. TUCKER: So completely separate? 22 MR. DOPPEL: Yeah.

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 179 1 MS. ARMSTRONG: Not VRF water source. 2 You're thinking pure water source, ground source and 3 evap. Okay. So would it be helpful if we were to put 4 like all these grouped together what we've agreed upon 5 mostly, what is outstanding in like a Word document 6 and circulate it for everyone to have final review of 7 it before we take votes? 8 MR. AMRANE: Yep. 9 MS. ARMSTRONG: And then there's a couple of 10 outstanding things that you guys are going to get back 11 to us on. And Karim you can let us know if we need to 12 set up separate meetings with certain people and we 13 can go from there. So we can maybe bring the basic 14 model issues to a close here. 15 MR. WHITWELL: Do we want to vote on this 16 meeting tomorrow? 17 MS. ARMSTRONG: Do you think you think 18 you're going to be able to provide some feedback on 19 some of the outstanding issues, and be able to vote 20 tomorrow? 21 MR. WHITWELL: Probably not. Probably next 22 meeting, right.

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 180 1 MS. ARMSTRONG: To recap the issues. So off 2 the top of my head coated coils, I think that's for 3 CRE, as well as for HVAC, as well as for PTACs to the 4 extent that's different than HVAC. 5 MS. BARHYDT: And water sources. 6 MS. ARMSTRONG: And water source. Anywhere 7 there's coated coils. A more defined definition and a 8 rational. Motors, so oversized motors, what that 9 really means. How do you tell a standardized motor, 10 how would you define it? What the Department's 11 actually agreeing to, or potentially. 12 MR. CYMBALSKY: What you like the -- 13 MS. ARMSTRONG: Yeah, that one. What you'd 14 like the Department to agree to. 15 MR. KOJAK: For the standard motor you're 16 talking about, is that condenser, or indoor, or it's 17 just indoor? 18 MS. ARMSTRONG: No, it's just indoor. I 19 think for a condenser, it's zero static, no issue. 20 It's just a question of if you don't have a standard 21 offering. In other words, if you only have -- if you 22 only offer ducted condenser motors, what do you do?

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 181 1 Because the only way you get some of these test 2 procedure or enforcement exclusions, for lack of a 3 better term, is to have a standard offering that's 4 identical except for that. So if you only offer 5 products with, you know, condenser motors that are 6 ducted, then I think that it's a test procedure waiver 7 issue at that point, not a -- do you have another one? 8 MR. BALLO: Is display lighting for CRE 9 still part of this, or is that thing kicked out into 10 it? 11 MS. ARMSTRONG: Yeah, so we will have to 12 deal with, you're right, the average signage type 13 lighting for a CRE and how we define that. So any 14 additional input. I don't know that'll be basic 15 modelish, but we will have to figure it out. So any 16 input will be great. And the other one, I think, is 17 the dehumidification, like desiccant versus -- I think 18 we had some clarification that it was just desiccant 19 or desiccant like systems. Like it wasn't hot gas 20 bypass, that's separate. But, you know, to the extent 21 we want to -- there we go. Sorry. Hot gas for heat. 22 It's usually my naptime.

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 182 1 MR. HUNT: Hi, this is Marshall Hunt, PG&E. 2 MS. ARMSTRONG: Yep, go ahead. 3 MR. HUNT: And I submitted about three items 4 in an email yesterday that have a lot of similarities 5 to ones already discussed. I don't think any brand 6 new issues are raised in terms of energy impacts. But 7 I did I want to get them on this list. Do you have 8 that file? I sent it to various people. I didn't 9 know who'd get it into the docket most recently. 10 MS. ARMSTRONG: Do you have that file? 11 MS. TUCKER: It's in the computer. 12 MS. ARMSTRONG: It's coming; we're loading 13 it on the computer. 14 While we're loading it, just one other issue 15 is the filter issue. And whether we can come to some 16 type of compromise on six or where we are there. 17 MS. DANE: Ashley, this is Mary from 18 Traulsen. We still have the wedge thing on there. And 19 we also want to finish talking about draining pans, 20 condensate heaters, I believe. 21 MS. ARMSTRONG: All right, so the condensate 22 heaters is going to come down to the methodology.

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 183 1 MS. DANE: Right. 2 MS. ARMSTRONG: So to the extent you guys 3 have a common methodology that you can agree upon, we 4 welcome it. Otherwise, the Department's going to give 5 it its best shot for notice and comment. 6 MS. DANE: I think we'd like to talk to 7 people with different kinds of equipment to see -- 8 MS. ARMSTRONG: Absolutely. 9 MS. DANE: Just to understand if there is a 10 difference and it should be considered. 11 MS. ARMSTRONG: We're welcome. 12 MS. DANE: Okay. 13 MS. ARMSTRONG: Yeah, we welcome that. 14 And then the other one -- so for wedge 15 cases, I mean, that's one where we can't do a whole 16 lot, our hands are tied right now, because our 17 existing regs are pretty clear. They must be tested 18 independently. And the standards, it talks about how 19 to address them in terms of the standards. If you 20 feel that the test procedure, because it requires 21 testing them independently is unrepresentative of your 22 unit's energy consumption in the field, you may apply

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 184 1 for a test procedure waiver. 2 And one option would be for that waiver to 3 request the Department's consideration to be tested 4 with a parent case, if that's what you'd like to do. 5 And that's our best case now. In terms of long term 6 specs, we'd need to, you know, revisit that, or at 7 least look at whether we should revisit that. 8 Okay. I think that's all I had. Does 9 anyone have any other ones? We're going to like send 10 out something. 11 MS. BARHYDT: Yeah. 12 MS. ARMSTRONG: We. We are going to send 13 out something, collective. Collective. 14 MS. TUCKER: (Inaudible). 15 MS. ARMSTRONG: Yeah, do you have Marshall's 16 stuff? 17 MS. TUCKER: I have the slide up. But you'd 18 rather -- it's those three. 19 MR. HUNT: I can make this easy -- this is 20 Marshall -- that I would appreciate people looking at 21 these overnight. Working alone, I'm not sure I got 22 the benefit of everyone's give and take that was given

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 185 1 on the other exceptions. But I would like these to be 2 looked at by folks. And we could hit tomorrow at some 3 point. There's three. 4 MS. ARMSTRONG: Yeah. 5 MR. HUNT: And they're related to what was 6 brought up by my friends who are concerned about the 7 hot, dry, wet. Thank you folks. And these are not 8 national applications at all, so they obviously don't 9 belong in the national test. But they are and will be 10 more important for us. Today, we're only going to get 11 up to 108 throughout the state. 12 MS. TUCKER: Are you guys good if I float to 13 the next one? 14 MR. HUNT: So I don't expect everyone to 15 speed read these now. 16 And there's a Word document that filled out 17 the table like the others -- was done for the others 18 that are like in the high -- in the mid-30s down the 19 list. This one may be controversial, because it might 20 be being done without the manufacturers really wanting 21 it to happen at all. But I did want to mention it, 22 that this kind of thing is happening. It's indoor

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 186 1 when you have multiple units serving a single space 2 some of them become merely dedicated outdoor air 3 systems. Even though you're operating outside the 4 manufacturer's standard limits of operation. And this 5 is certainly an application specific concept. Making 6 use of a good quality RTU gets you indoor air quality. 7 MS. ARMSTRONG: This is Ashley from DOE. It 8 seems like from the people in the room they're saying 9 this would require a test procedure change to address. 10 MR. HUNT: I want it exempt. I don't want 11 it to be addressed by the test procedure. So if I can 12 order a modified RTU that gets it to be DOS, or DOAS, 13 or near DOAS. I don't want that to be a part of a 14 test that the manufacturer must pass. Because it will 15 have different things going on than the standard unit. 16 So all these are exceptions that shouldn't be pulled 17 off the line, or pulled out of the warehouse and 18 tested. 19 MS. ARMSTRONG: This is the same issue that 20 came up before. Yeah, so a truly dedicated outdoor, 21 100 percent outdoor air, to the extent it meets the 22 definition of commercial air conditions it's not

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 187 1 uncovered, let's put it that way. We did specifically 2 address this issue in the last ASHRAE rule where 3 someone asked us this. Just because it has 100 4 percent outdoor air, or some combination close to does 5 not mean it's excluded from the regulations. Now, 6 that being said, there may be other problems. 7 MR. FLY: So this is Mark Fly. So what's 8 inner and coil condition on that, is it 80/67? 9 MS. ARMSTRONG: Yeah, like I said, there may 10 be other problems. 11 MR. FLY: Okay. 12 MS. ARMSTRONG: But that just doesn't mean 13 that it's excluded from the regs, per se. I guess, so 14 there's a couple of things. We've had some people ask 15 us about this quite frequently lately. And it's fine, 16 Marshall, to the extent you're suggesting an exclusion 17 for those units that are dedicated outdoor air 18 systems, that's fine when there's a standard unit 19 available. What if someone only offers dedicated 20 outdoor air systems period? 21 MR. HUNT: Oh, no, this is -- so I mean, I 22 put RTU there, maybe it should be standard RTU, or

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 188 1 whatever the right language is. It's assuming I could 2 order model X, model plus, plus, plus, after whatever 3 signs and order the proper component with the help of 4 the technical people at the manufacturers. Come up 5 with a unit that withstand the difference entering air 6 temperatures that I'd meet. 7 MS. ARMSTRONG: You know what I'm thinking 8 of right now? So you would say that -- 9 MR. HUNT: So, yes, there's a standard unit. 10 MS. ARMSTRONG: -- if they didn't offer a 11 standard unit, and everyone -- 12 MR. HUNT: Yes. 13 MS. ARMSTRONG: -- in the room seems to be 14 looking at me like a little crazy. Although, I've 15 gotten this question. So if they didn't offer a 16 standard unit, then their dedicated outdoor unit would 17 be subject to test. And if it couldn't be tested, 18 then they need a waiver. 19 MR. HUNT: Correct. 20 MS. ARMSTRONG: That's the process. Okay. 21 MR. HUNT: But it's so much more cost 22 effective to take a manufacturer platform that's made

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 189 1 by the thousands and adapt it then to have a one off. 2 MS. ARMSTRONG: Sure, sure. Okay. So these 3 are on SharePoint now. So if you guys could take a 4 look at that tonight and let us know what you think, 5 that'd be great. And we can consider them in our 6 final list. 7 MR. HUNT: Thank you. 8 MS. ARMSTRONG: So we've come 90 percent of 9 the way there on basic model. We have a couple of 10 outstanding issues. I want to know how you guys feel 11 about starting certification. In terms of what 12 information needs to be provided by whom, what's 13 public, what's private? 14 MS. BARHYDT: We talked about that one. 15 MS. ARMSTRONG: Okay. I mean, can we move 16 on, or are we at a point where we need to stop, 17 because you guys would rather discuss some of the 18 outstanding basic model issues and try to come to 19 closure on those tomorrow first, or what exactly do we 20 want to do here? We can take a nap. 21 MR. THARP: Harvey already did. He missed 22 the second one.

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 190 1 MS. HOOTMAN: Beyond certification or in the 2 certification? So we can start talking about the 3 general types of information to collect, that kind of 4 thing? 5 MR. AMRANE: Just a moment. 6 MS. ARMSTRONG: Yeah, go ahead. 7 MR. AMRANE: Karim Amrane with AHRI. On the 8 computer room A/C definition, I mean, I provided at 9 least some input. Now, again, maybe the best way if 10 you want to is to arrange a meeting with those folks 11 on a conference call and go over the definition. That 12 would be maybe more efficient that way. I don't know. 13 I think it's similar to the large package unitary. A 14 few things that might be slightly different. But I 15 can certainly try to arrange a meeting like this or 16 call. 17 MS. ARMSTRONG: Yeah, I mean, without 18 pulling the test procedure in front of me, I'm not 19 going to know how some of these things are, or if they 20 are even treated differently. 21 MR. AMRANE: Okay. 22 MS. ARMSTRONG: I just don't know off the

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 191 1 top of my head. So the best way to do it might either 2 a separate call if they want to do one, or to circle 3 back. 4 MR. AMRANE: Okay. All right, I mean, we 5 can do -- 6 MS. ARMSTRONG: When you have a chance. I 7 mean, we welcome anyone else. 8 MR. AMRANE: I think a separate call might 9 be better. 10 MS. ARMSTRONG: Sure. 11 MR. AMRANE: To be honest with you. 12 MS. ARMSTRONG: Just let us know. 13 MR. AMRANE: Just because there's nobody 14 here represented. 15 MS. ARMSTRONG: Okay. All right, move on. 16 MS. BARHYDT: So as a procedural matter, on 17 the, I think it was SPBU and on the computer room air 18 conditions. The question is, is the working group 19 okay with the Department meeting with those groups 20 without everybody present? Do you want a general 21 invitation to go out so that people have the 22 opportunity to be present? We can as a group agree to

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 192 1 allow the Department to go meet with them, and then 2 come back and report back as a separate group. But we 3 need to have a clear decision about how the group 4 wants to handle those. 5 MS. DANE: This is Mary from Traulsen. The 6 other day when you handled the call with commercial 7 refrigeration offline, I think it moved quite quickly. 8 MS. BARHYDT: So that was not offline. That 9 was with a court reporter and the whole -- 10 MS. DANE: Well, no. But what I -- right. 11 Well, I mean, you still had that. But what I'm saying 12 is we didn't have to wait, we were able to accomplish 13 something in between meetings and to be ready for the 14 next one. I've noted that you've put quite a list for 15 HVAC off. And we're talking about going over it at 16 the beginning of the next meeting, which is fine. 17 But, you know, then the rest of us sit and wait. So 18 I'm wondering would you consider, would they consider 19 having their last minute things discussed between 20 meetings also, so that we could just keep pushing 21 ahead on the agenda items and go forward. I mean, it 22 involves a lot of phone calls, but I mean, it's an

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 193 1 option to being able to finish by the end of August. 2 MS. BARHYDT: So just to be clear on the 3 procedural part of this, the working group can set up 4 - - so obviously we're a subgroup that's been tasked 5 by the ASRAC. We can then say we want to have a group 6 go off and work and report back. And that would not 7 actually have the full court reporter and the full 8 transcript. That would be different from what we did 9 with commercial refrigeration equipment where that was 10 all on the record and it was technically a full 11 meeting, even though we didn't have real high 12 attendance. So that's what I was wondering is do you 13 want the meetings with the SPBU and the computer room 14 air conditioners to be full meetings on the record, or 15 do you want those to just be -- 16 MS. HOOTMAN: Yeah. This is Jill from 17 Trane. I think that those need to be, because there 18 are -- 19 MS. BARHYDT: Okay. 20 MS. HOOTMAN: -- people here, that are 21 people that make those that aren't here. So I don't 22 know who's on the phone, but I'm not sure that they've

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 194 1 been joining. 2 MS. BARHYDT: Okay. 3 MS. HOOTMAN: So they need to have the 4 opportunity to be included. 5 MS. BARHYDT: So it's not a question of 6 whether they have the opportunity to share their 7 views, it's a question of whether it all is going to 8 be on the record, or whether it's going to be 9 basically the working group tasking a team, presumably 10 Karim, DOE and whoever those people are meeting. And 11 then us reporting back to the full group. Or whether 12 it's technically a full group meeting on the record. 13 Either way we want to hear their views, there's no 14 question about that. It's just procedurally whether 15 it is a full meeting on the record, or whether it's a 16 tasking, work tasking group. 17 MS. HOOTMAN: Okay. So if it is not a full 18 one, or full whatever, if it's not one on the record, 19 etcetera, how would those others know to even come? 20 MS. ARMSTRONG: We can still send a -- 21 MR. AMRANE: Well, we can contact them. 22 MS. HOOTMAN: Okay.

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 195 1 MR. AMRANE: But there might be others that 2 are not within our group, too. I mean, that's -- 3 MS. HOOTMAN: No, I'm actually of thinking 4 of like Bard, who is, you know -- 5 MR. AMRANE: Yeah, (inaudible). 6 MS. HOOTMAN: Right. 7 MS. ARMSTRONG: We can send out a blast. I 8 mean, that's not -- or put it on our website or 9 something if that's an issue, yeah. 10 MS. HOOTMAN: I was just making sure. 11 Because the other way being public then I figured they 12 have the, you know -- 13 MS. ARMSTRONG: Yeah. 14 MS. HOOTMAN: They see the blast, they don't 15 see them, or whatever. 16 MR. AMRANE: I mean, for me -- this is Karim 17 with AHRI -- I think what is easier for DOE? I 18 understand that getting, you know, a court recorder 19 can be a hassle for you guys. So if it's easier for 20 you to have not informal, but kind of an informal 21 meeting we would be fine with those. 22 MS. BARHYDT: Yes, it is. It really is.

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 196 1 The logistics in trying to do this in the short 2 timeframe. 3 MR. EISNER: Okay. Before we got onto the 4 next issue, John Bean is on the phone. You had a 5 question or comment? 6 MR. BEAN: This is John Bean here from 7 Snyder Electric. I am with the datacom section, 8 manufacturer of computer room air conditioning. 9 MR. EISNER: Did you want to make a comment, 10 or you just want us to know you're there on the line? 11 MR. BEAN: Well, it was mentioned that we 12 had nobody on the line from the computer room air 13 conditioning manufacturers. But I did want to correct 14 that and mention that we do have one. I would like to 15 mention that if we could have a larger audience with 16 some of the other manufacturers, rather than just 17 letting myself represent them, I think that would be 18 wonderful. 19 MR. EISNER: Okay. 20 MS. BARHYDT: So if DOE can work out the 21 logistics we'll do the full meeting on the record. 22 But if not, is everyone okay with DOE and we'll send

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 197 1 out a blast, and anyone who wants to participate is 2 welcome to, but it won't be necessarily an official 3 meeting of the working group. Is everyone okay with 4 that? 5 MR. SACHS: I approve this message. 6 MS. BARHYDT: Thank you, Harvey. 7 MS. DANE: And that was for which specific 8 groups? 9 MS. BARHYDT: Computer room air conditioners 10 and SPVUs. 11 MR. BAUMAN: This is Jeff Bauman for 12 National. I just want to -- and I think we had some 13 exposure to some CRE. I think we thought it was 14 probably more formal than it needed, our impression. 15 But we understand we have to follow the rules with the 16 court reporter and such. So I think the idea that if 17 it's going to be announced to everybody that's 18 listening in or a part of these meetings, that 19 decisions are not made at those meetings, it's just 20 informational. So we can come back and work faster 21 when we get back together as a group. The court 22 reporter and all that, I don't think is required. I

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 198 1 think we saw that at that meeting. 2 MR. EISNER: Okay, are you ready to go onto 3 certification? 4 MS. BARHYDT: Certification. 5 MR. EISNER: This is slide 29. 6 MS. BARHYDT: So the last time we talked a 7 little bit about public versus private information. 8 Did anyone have any other questions about that? 9 Okay. 10 MS. HOOTMAN: This is Jill Hootman from 11 Trane. I don't have any more questions per se, but I 12 will say that I am not ready to agree or disagree. I 13 am having some legal people look at some information, 14 and I don't have it back. 15 MS. BARHYDT: Okay. So the information we 16 typically collect on the certification report covered 17 the product or equipment type, the product or 18 equipment class, the manufacturer's name and address, 19 if there is a private labeler, their name and address, 20 the brand name, the basic model number. Individual 21 model number is covered by a basic model. A status 22 column. That's either it's new, discontinued, it's a

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 199 1 continuing product, it's a correction, stuff like 2 that. The test sample size. We have people put in 3 the numeral "1" and if they are using an AEDM; the 4 U.S. Customs and Border Protection importer 5 identification number, if applicable; whether the 6 certification is based on a test procedure waiver and 7 the date of the waiver; whether the certification is 8 based on exception relief from the Office of Hearings 9 and Appeals and the date, if applicable; and then 10 whether or not the certification is based on an ARM or 11 AEDM. 12 MR. EISNER: Does anybody have any questions 13 on any of this? 14 MR. THARP: Rusty Tharp with Goodman. What 15 about talk about the basic model number and the 16 individual model numbers? This could get into an 17 issue, especially for some of the others if you 18 include every possible individual model number, you 19 don't have a spreadsheet or columns big enough for all 20 of that. So can we use asterisks? 21 MS. BARHYDT: Yes. So most manufacturers do 22 use asterisks. And the key is that that number should

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 200 1 be -- it should be possible for the Department to look 2 at, say, your catalogue and say, "This is that thing." 3 So as long as we can tell what you are selling is 4 actually certified, you are good. But most 5 manufacturers do use asterisks heavily. 6 MR. HON: Charlie Hon, True Manufacturing. 7 In similar certifications like the Energy Star 8 programs, things like that, they were asking for a lot 9 more information as far as because our products -- 10 MS. BARHYDT: So this is the general 11 information, not the product-specific information? We 12 have different slides for each, product-specific. 13 MR. HON: Thank you. 14 MR. DOPPEL: Paul Doppel with Mitsubishi. 15 You know, I am just kind of thinking out loud on this, 16 but the next thing below basic model number is 17 individual numbers covered by that basic model. So if 18 we are using an AEDM now, does that kind of change the 19 parameters of that? 20 MS. BARHYDT: So an AEDM would be you would 21 be using an AEDM to presumably generate ratings that 22 are a lot of different ratings across the wide swath

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Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 07-01-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 201 1 of different types of products. Those would not all 2 be the same basic model. You would still have the 3 ability to group things into different basic models, 4 which impacts what is determined to be compliant or 5 noncompliant if DOE were to go to enforcement testing 6 and find something to be noncompliant. So there is 7 still a concept of a basic model, even if you are 8 using an AEDM. 9 MR. EISNER: Others? 10 MR. WHITWELL: Bob Whitwell from Carrier. 11 Last time we talked about this, there was some 12 discussion about what on this list was going to be 13 public and what was going to be private. Could we go 14 through that again? 15 MS. BARHYDT: So typically, the 16 product/equipment type, the equipment class, the brand 17 name, the basic -- 18 MS. HOOTMAN: (Inaudible). 19 MS. BARHYDT: Okay. So -- 20 MS. TUCKER: What is write in for the -- 21 MS. BARHYDT: So equipment type, equipment 22 class, public. Manufacturer name and address would

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 202 1 not be. Private labeler name and address would not 2 be. Brand name is. Basic model number is. Individual 3 model numbers are. Status is not. I can't remember 4 if sample size is. I don't think it is. 5 And then whether or not it is based on a 6 test procedure waiver, I don't think we published 7 that. I don't think we published OHA or whether it is 8 based on an AEDM. I don't think we publish any of 9 that. 10 MR. DOPPEL: It is Paul Doppel. So it looks 11 like there are two there that kind of reference AEDM: 12 test sample size. 13 MS. BARHYDT: So the test sample size, if 14 you are actually doing testing, it's how many units 15 did you test? So it's 2, 3, 4, 12. 16 MR. DOPPEL: But if you have an AEDM. 17 MS. BARHYDT: If you have an AEDM, we ask 18 that people put a "1" in that column and then they 19 mark, "Yes," that I used an AEDM. 20 MR. DOPPEL: But on our chart, we said that 21 the minimum is two to establish an AEDM. 22 MS. BARHYDT: Right, but those are future

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 203 1 potential regulations. 2 MR. DOPPEL: We don't have -- you know, you 3 said 1, and we told you you have to have a minimum of 4 two. 5 MS. BARHYDT: Yes. No, no, no. So right 6 now, the 1 is just basically so that our validation 7 checks don't come back and say, "Oh, you left this 8 field blank." What we are really looking at is, did 9 you use an AEDM or not? 10 MR. AMRANE: Karim Amrane. Maybe to avoid 11 confusion, instead of 1, you should put something 12 else. 13 MS. BARHYDT: Right, right. We can deal 14 with that. 15 MR. BALLO: On status, it could be helpful 16 to make public a new certification, discontinued 17 existing if -- you know, for people like me, who look 18 at the database see that a product was certified last 19 time and isn't certified in the most recent round of 20 certifications, it would be helpful to know that 21 because last time it was certified as discontinued or 22

-

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 204 1 - 2 MS. BARHYDT: So once it is marked as "D," 3 discontinued, it actually comes off the public 4 database. So there is no way to actually display a D 5 because it's not up there anymore. 6 MS. MEYERS: So, Laura, this is Karen with 7 Rheem. So the stuff that is not public, status, test 8 sample size, et cetera, would still be subject to FOIA 9 requests? Is that correct? 10 MS. BARHYDT: So it's still subject to FOIA 11 requests. However, some of it may be able to be 12 withheld under different exemptions of the FOIA. So 13 the public means that DOE is publishing it on our 14 certification database. The ones that don't say 15 anything are the ones that we're not publishing, but 16 it doesn't mean that they are necessarily excluded 17 under 18 FOIA. 19 We have had some manufacturers claim that 20 the manufacturer-private labeler relationship is 21 confidential business information. We have had some 22 people make the argument that the phone numbers of

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 205 1 their employees are exempt. And I don't actually know 2 whether those claims were granted or not, but I do 3 know that we have had people make those claims. The 4 manufacturer-private labeler I think has typically 5 been granted, that we have withheld that. 6 MR. BALLO: I just have to disagree with 7 that. I mean, as a practical matter, it's most often 8 the case that we have been able to determine who the 9 manufacturer is for items that are private labeled, 10 but 11

-- 12 MS. BARHYDT: (Inaudible.) 13 MR. BALLO: That's true. So all I can say 14 is I disagree with that. I realize I am not going to 15 convince the entire room of it. So I am willing to 16 let it go, but I think it should be public. 17 MS. MEYERS: So this is Karen again. On 18 page 29, so the slide previous to this, where it says 19 "private information" and it is a "PDF of additional 20 testing information," so would that be subject to FOIA 21 requests also? So if we had a unit tested -- 22 MS. BARHYDT: So there's a difference

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 206 1 between when a manufacturer submits test data to the 2 Department and when the Department has something 3 tested. 4 MS. MEYERS: Okay. 5 MS. BARHYDT: If it is information submitted 6 to the Department, then we will send that information 7 and the information is requested in a FOIA, we send it 8 back to the manufacturer and we ask for the 9 manufacturer's views of whether or not the information 10 in that report is confidential business information. 11 And then the Department makes a determination of 12 whether or not the legal standard has been met for 13 withholding that information. It is different when it 14 is the Department doing the testing. 15 MS. HOOTMAN: And so when the Department is 16 doing the testing? 17 MS. BARHYDT: So when the Department is 18 doing the testing, we evaluate the test data and 19 determine whether or not the information contained in 20 the test report is confidential business information. 21 MS. HOOTMAN: This is Jill from Trane. And 22 can we --

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 207 1 MS. BARHYDT: Is your mike working? It just 2 doesn't sound -- 3 MS. HOOTMAN: It's green light is all we can 4 tell you. 5 MS. BARHYDT: Okay. 6 MS. HOOTMAN: So can we tell you what we 7 feel is confidential information of what you tested? 8 MS. BARHYDT: I mean, the regulations are 9 not set up that way. The way it's set up is that 10 information submitted to the Department goes back to 11 the submitter. And this is not information that came 12 from the manufacturer. It's government information. 13 MR. THARP: This is Rusty with the Goodman. 14 I would suggest that maybe one thing we would discuss 15 is what -- one of the things we would agree upon is 16 what type of test data is confidential and not to be 17 shared or what we, as manufacturers, would like not to 18 be shared as far as the details of the operation of 19 the system versus -- 20 MR. EISNER: Are you talking about 21 information you submit or information they gather? 22 MR. THARP: The information would be

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 208 1 gathered during the testing process. For example, you 2 take -- 3 MR. EISNER: That DOE -- 4 MR. THARP: -- all of the refrigerant 5 pressures, the amps, the RPMs, et cetera, all of the 6 operating parameters of the system; if you are talking 7 VFD stuff, you know, what specific speed you are 8 operating at, et cetera. 9 MR. DOPPEL: This is Paul Doppel with 10 Mitsubishi. You know, it seems that we can come up 11 with a test report, you know, a one page that has, you 12 know, information that could readily be released. And 13 then, you know, that just becomes the de facto test 14 report. 15 MS. BARHYDT: So the Department is not going 16 to ask our labs to give us a summary report in an 17 enforcement situation. We're going to ask for 18 complete test data. And so once we have all of that 19 test data, it is the government's data. It's not like 20 we can say, "Oh. Well, just give us a summary 21 report," and go into an enforcement action. 22 MS. HOOTMAN: And so my competitor could ask

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 209 1 under Freedom of Information Act for that information 2 and -- 3 MS. BARHYDT: They can ask. That doesn't 4 mean we're going to release it. All I am saying is 5 that it is government information. It is not -- 6 MS. HOOTMAN: I'm not disputing that it is 7 not government information. 8 MS. BARHYDT: Okay. 9 MS. HOOTMAN: I get that. I'm worried about 10 whether that gets released and whether someone could - 11 - I know someone can back wood engineer from that. 12 MR. BALLO: Isn't there an exemption, 13 though, from FOIA for items related to an ongoing and 14 compliance investigation? 15 MS. BARHYDT: There is. I think the bigger 16 issue is after the case is closed. 17 MR. DOPPEL: This is Paul Doppel with 18 Mitsubishi. You know, I think I brought this up 19 before, but in order to get to where we are today, 20 there was a confidential interview process that was 21 done with a lot of manufacturers. Is that information 22 available?

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 210 1 MS. BARHYDT: So there is a big difference 2 between the information that is gathered in the 3 rulemaking process and the information that is 4 gathered during the enforcement process. Information 5 that is gathered during the rulemaking process by DOE 6 contractors is retained by the contractors under the 7 contract. And my understanding is the government does 8 not have access to that information. During an 9 enforcement action, the government has the 10 information. Does that make sense? 11 MR. DOPPEL: No. 12 MS. BARHYDT: Okay. So during the 13 rulemaking process, the way the information is 14 gathered, it is gathered by a contractor. And it's 15 put into a format in which the government does not 16 actually have access to the individual responses; 17 whereas, in an enforcement context, we have the full 18 information. And that is what subjects it to FOIA. 19 The contractor does not act on our behalf in the same 20 way in an enforcement context. 21 MS. MEYERS: So that applies to a DOE lab 22 and a lab that DOE contracts with? Is the contractor

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 211 1

-- 2 MS. BARHYDT: The contract is very different 3 in enforcement testing or verification testing, for 4 that matter. All of the testing is done under a 5 different provision. 6 MS. HOOTMAN: Verification. 7 MS. BARHYDT: Right. 8 MR. EISNER: Are we finished with this 9 thought? Because we have a question online. I don't 10 want to interrupt this. Any more on this particular 11 point? 12 MS. HOOTMAN: We're finished to the 13 understanding of the situation. 14 MS. HOOTMAN: We are not finished to 15 agreement or consensus on that. 16 MR. EISNER: Okay. 17 MR. AMRANE: This is Karim Amrane. Just one 18 question. What is needed to change this: an act of 19 Congress or something like that? I mean -- 20 MS. BARHYDT: I don't even understand the 21 question. 22 MR. AMRANE: For example, I mean, this is

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 212 1 sensitive information that we believe -- 2 MS. BARHYDT: Right. And the government can 3 protect sensitive information. The issue is that it 4 is not the manufacturer's information. So we do not 5 go to the manufacturer and seek their views. The 6 Department reviews the information and determines what 7 is confidential business information and what is not. 8 I mean, we still have an obligation to protect trade 9 secrets. That doesn't go away because we didn't get 10 the information from you. 11 MR. THARP: This is Rusty Tharp with 12 Goodman. I guess that I would -- both of the labs that 13 I have been associated with, they typically have a 14 cover page that gives a summary of results and then 15 details of the operation, including all of the 16 refrigerant stake points and all of the actual 17 measurements made are in later pages. I guess that is 18 what I would suggest is we might want to at least have 19 -- manufacturers have our opportunity to say, "Here is 20 what we feel is confidential business information" so 21 that if that ever comes to a point for the DOE, then 22 you will have this. We'll have an understanding of

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 213 1 what you feel is confidential business information and 2 what is not. 3 MS. BARHYDT: So all I would say is this 4 rulemaking will obviously go through notice and 5 comment. And, by all means, submit all of your 6 specific views on the data, but ultimately that is a 7 government decision under the Freedom of Information 8 Act. 9 MR. DOPPEL: Paul Doppel with Mitsubishi. 10 You know, the testing lab is essentially a private 11 contractor. And so DOE can request information that 12 they need to make the determination. And the summary 13 report would provide the determination and -- 14 MS. BARHYDT: And if all of you are willing 15 to agree that if they give us a summary report that 16 your product fails and you are going to let us issue a 17 noncompliance determination based on a summary report 18 without arguing over any of the details of the test, 19 then we'll talk. 20 MS. HOOTMAN: No. 21 MR. DOPPEL: No. We still have the 22 agreement that if there is a failure, that we can go

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 214 1 back and request a retest. 2 MR. THARP: Or they are there to begin with. 3 MS. BARHYDT: So I am not talking about just 4 an AEDM provision. I am talking about failure to meet 5 minimum standards. 6 MS. HOOTMAN: Yes. Paul, she is talking 7 about not just a spot check. She is ready to take her 8

-- 9 MR. DOPPEL: I know -- 10 MS. HOOTMAN: Yes. No. We want the full 11 lab report. 12 MR. DOPPEL: Okay. Well, then you have to 13 deal with everything being released. 14 MS. HOOTMAN: But I want that lab report 15 between me and the government. I don't necessarily 16 want it out there in -- 17 MR. THARP: Part of it. 18 MS. HOOTMAN: -- freedom of information. 19 MR. THARP: Part of it. 20 MR. DOPPEL: You can't have both, it looks 21 like. 22 MS. HOOTMAN: And, actually, Laura, you said

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 215 1 something. I would like a clarification. You said it 2 would be subject to notice and, you know -- 3 MS. BARHYDT: Yes. So everything that we -- 4 MS. HOOTMAN: Can we -- 5 MS. BARHYDT: Go ahead. 6 MS. HOOTMAN: In this process -- this is 7 just kind of an overall in this, -- 8 MS. BARHYDT: Right. 9 MS. HOOTMAN: -- the goal of this. Could we 10 not recommend that this go to a direct final rule at 11 the end of this since we have had consensus and we 12 have had an open process? 13 MS. BARHYDT: I believe the direct final 14 rule provision that is in EPCA only pertains to 15 standards. 16 MALE SPEAKER: That's correct. 17 MS. BARHYDT: We can't do that on this kind 18 of a rule. 19 MS. HOOTMAN: Okay. All right. 20 MR. EISNER: All right. We have a question 21 from Wes Wostal. Wes, are you on the line? 22 MR. WOSTAL: Yes, I'm here. Thank you. I

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 216 1 apologize to everybody. I had had some technical 2 difficulties. I thought I was connected by phone, but 3 found out I wasn't until just a short time ago. 4 I actually had a question all the way back 5 at the filters. I'm not asking that we go back to 6 that because it is my understanding that that issue is 7 not resolved at this point. So I will get an 8 opportunity to bring up my questions at another time. 9 Is that correct? 10 MS. BARHYDT: Actually, if you would go 11 ahead and state it so that we know what the issue is 12 and everybody can be thinking about it as they think 13 about the issue generally, that would be great. 14 MR. WOSTAL: Okay. Well, I'm with Climate 15 Master. We're a water source heat pump manufacturer. 16 And I guess my first question was I am curious where 17 the MERV-3 came from. And then, second, I believe I 18 heard you actually say that the thought was that 19 whatever we determined here would be the filter that 20 gets tested with any product that gets selected by 21 DOE. Is that correct? 22 MS. BARHYDT: So that was the idea that we

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 217 1 would agree on a standard filter for testing. 2 MR. WOSTAL: Okay. My statement to that is 3 that, you know, we are talking about an item that is a 4 throw-away component. It's going to be in the field. 5 You know, if the customer does things correctly, it 6 will be in the field for only a few months of usage. 7 And we typically just put an inexpensive fiberglass 8 filter in our units knowing that it is going to be 9 thrown away and that the customer if they so choose, 10 they can put a better filter in, a higher-efficiency 11 filter. 12 Now, I will say that we do have, you know, 13 in some situations, we have, better filters, but 14 typically our standard is just a fiberglass throw-away 15 because it is just that, a throw-away. And in the 16 competitive market, we try to look at every, you know, 17 penny we can. And so we choose not to spend extra 18 money on something that is going to be tossed in the 19 garbage can. So I guess I'm just -- you know, when we 20 make the statement that this would be, you know, 21 standard, you know, then I think somebody else, maybe 22 the person from Trane, made the comment that that is a

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 218 1 lot of money that would be added to the cost of their 2 product if we have to go to this as a standard. 3 MR. KOJAK: This is Mike Kojak with UL. 4 What was stated earlier was it was just the MERV-6 or 5 the MERV-4 we were talking about. It was just for the 6 rating tests and not for selling the unit with that 7 filter in it. You can sell it with whatever filter 8 you want but for the rating test, it would have to be 9 the minimum with the 4 or the 6 MERV or a 3. 10 MR. WOSTAL: Right, MERV-6. My quick 11 comment to that is our group, we do not -- basically 12 Climate Master -- and I think I pretty well speak for 13 most every water source company. I don't know if 14 anybody else from water source is on the phone call 15 here, but we don't have AEDMs. We are working on one. 16 We have been for a couple of years. But to meet the 17 requirements of the AEDM, it has not been an easy 18 task. And I really don't know that we will have one by 19 the deadline of the end of this year that is accurate 20 enough to meet the requirements. 21 So, with that, we test everything. And, you 22 know, everything, as I said, has been tested with just

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Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 07-01-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 219 1 a throw-away filter. Now you're talking about without 2 having an AEDM that may not be ready by the end of the 3 year. That's a lot of testing that has to be done to 4 go back and reestablish all of that test data. 5 MS. BARHYDT: So have you seen the AEDM 6 proposal that came out of the working group? 7 MR. WOSTAL: I have not. I have not seen 8 that. 9 MS. BARHYDT: That may address some of your 10 concerns. 11 MR. WOSTAL: Okay. How can I get my hands 12 on that? 13 MR. AMRANE: Karim Amrane with AHRI. 14 Although the issue here has been really to come within 15 the five percent tolerance. I mean, it is a challenge 16 for those products. So yes, industry is trying to 17 find an AEDM, develop an AEDM. 18 MR. EISNER: Can you give him the address 19 for the document? He wants to know how he can find 20 it. 21 MR. AMRANE: Wes, I'll send it to you. This 22 is Karim.

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 220 1 MR. WOSTAL: Okay. Thanks a lot, Karim. 2 MR. EISNER: Okay. Why don't we take a ten3 minute break and come back at 4:00 o'clock. 4 (Whereupon, there was a brief recess.) 5 MR. EISNER: If everybody could get seated 6 so we can start? 7 MS. BARHYDT: Any other questions about the 8 general types of information DOE collects? Frank? 9 MR. MYERS: Never mind. 10 MR. EISNER: Okay. Nobody else has 11 anything? 12 All right. So that takes us up to the 13 commercial warm air furnaces. 14 MS. BARHYDT: So product-specific 15 information. Looking at what types of information the 16 Department might ought to collect in a certification 17 report, the AHRI directory for commercial warm air 18 furnaces includes fuel type, furnace type, the 19 configuration, input rating, and thermal efficiency. 20 DOE regulations currently only require the thermal 21 efficiency in percent and the maximum rated input 22 capacity in Btus per hour.

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 221 1 So what else should be provided to DOE? We 2 have already discussed the possibility of a PDF with 3 additional testing instructions as necessary under the 4 AEDM provisions. Should that be provided, even if 5 manufacturers don't use an AEDM? 6 And then what other information might the 7 DOE need to be able to run the test? 8 MR. EISNER: When you show this information, 9 you get thermal efficiency percent. Is that different 10 from what AHRI gets? 11 MS. BARHYDT: For this product, I'm not 12 sure. I know there is one place where our units are 13 different than what AHRI has, but I am not sure which 14 one it is. 15 MR. STANONIK: Frank Stanonik, AHRI. Now, 16 we show it in percent. And, just for clarity, our 17 input rating is also the maximum rated input capacity. 18 It is the same. 19 MR. EISNER: So that if consistency is good, 20 that's good, then? 21 MR. DOPPEL: Paul Doppel with Mitsubishi. 22 So any documentation that we provide to DOE for

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 222 1 conducting the test could be classified as company2 confidential. 3 MS. BARHYDT: So I can't tell you that 4 anything you provide would be. I mean, maybe you give 5 me a model number. You can't claim a model number as 6 confidential business information. 7 MR. DOPPEL: Well, I am referring to what 8 you were just talking about: the PDF or -- 9 MS. BARHYDT: Right. So what I can tell you 10 is that -- 11 MR. DOPPEL: -- document on how to conduct 12 the test. 13 MS. BARHYDT: -- my FOIA office, if you give 14 me a PDF that says at the top of it the name of your 15 company and the model number and it says, "Testing 16 Instructions" at the top, they are not going to let me 17 withhold the entire document. They are going to say I 18 have to at least release those three lines at the top. 19 So that's why I am drawing the distinction of I can't 20 tell you that that PDF is going to be withheld. I am 21 going to have to produce a document that says, 22 "Mitsubishi gave me a PDF." And I may only release

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Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 07-01-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 223 1 those top three lines, but I am going to be releasing 2 something. 3 MR. WHITWELL: And you would have a 4 discussion with the manufacturer before release, 5 though? 6 MS. BARHYDT: Yes because that is 7 information submitted to the Department by the 8 manufacturer. 9 MR. WHITWELL: Bob Whitwell, Carrier. So a 10 comment to your earlier question. So the PDF with 11 additional testing instructions should be -- that is 12 going to be necessary whether it is an AEDM or not; 13 right? 14 MS. BARHYDT: I would think so, but -- 15 MR. WHITWELL: Yes. Yes. 16 MS. BARHYDT: -- is that something that 17 should be required? Should that be optional? 18 MR. WHITWELL: I think it is optional, but 19 it would be in the manufacturer's best interest to 20 provide it. 21 MR. KOJAK: This is Mike Kojak with UL. If 22 it is optional, then if there are special testing

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 224 1 instructions that are needed by the third party, 2 according to the rules that you are making, then the 3 third party lab would then contact you. Of course, 4 then you would have to contact them. And then they 5 would understand that they are being tested at that 6 time if they don't give that information up front. 7 And they always withhold. They will always be 8 notified when we do the initial testing because we 9 need to get that information in order, you know, to 10 conduct the test. 11 MS. BARHYDT: So I think that that assumes 12 that it is not possible for the Department to conduct 13 the test. 14 MR. KOJAK: For the more sophisticated 15 equipment, there are usually things that have to be 16 done to the test unit that is not going to be just 17 common knowledge. You know, if you have to force it 18 into doing things that it's -- you know, for the test 19 standard, that information comes from the manufacturer 20 how to do that. 21 MS. BARHYDT: So it sounds like you think we 22 should require it?

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 225 1 MR. KOJAK: I'm not saying either/or. I am 2 just saying that could happen. 3 MR. STANONIK: Frank Stanonik, AHRI. It 4 should be optional. First of all, this is a perfect 5 example. There are a lot of furnaces where you really 6 don't need any other extra information on how to run a 7 thermal efficiency test. And to this recent point 8 that came up, in some discussion we had -- and it will 9 come up again -- there certainly was acknowledged that 10 if a manufacturer was in a certification program, that 11 the only extra information, instructions that would be 12 used would be the same instructions that were provided 13 to that certification program for their testing. 14 And if that is something that we're going to 15 go in that direction, then it seems to me -- and that 16 is a big if, by the way. But if we are going in that 17 direction, it seems to me, that if there is need for 18 extra instructions, that this is the manufacturer's 19 opportunity to provide that information. And if it is 20 not, if they are not in a VICP and they don't submit 21 it when they submit the certification, then they have 22 lost the opportunity to provide that information to

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 226 1 DOE. 2 MS. BARHYDT: So I'm not at all disagreeing 3 with you. My question is -- okay. So they submit a 4 certification report. They don't provide the 5 additional information. And the test lab tells us 6 that there is not enough information for them to 7 actually do the test. Then what? 8 MR. STANONIK: Well, again, assuming that it 9 is some special instruction that should have been 10 provided -- 11 MS. BARHYDT: We make it up? DOE fills in 12 the blanks? 13 MR. STANONIK: I guess it's up to you. If 14 you are concerned about this issue that the 15 manufacturer has now got an alert that they are being 16 tested, which I am not sure I would think is a big 17 deal, you could say, "Well, you know, you provided no 18 additional instructions. We are testing it whichever 19 way we see fit." All right? 20 I mean, the reason I say it is optional I 21 think would be explained is that if there are 22 additional instructions that are required for testing

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 227 1 your unit, you know, here is where you provide them. 2 MR. EISNER: Well, if the instructions said, 3 I mean, both could be combined into one if they said, 4 "The manufacturer shall supply any information it 5 believes is necessary for an inspector to test the 6 device. It would be optional. But you had better 7 submit it or you won't be able to complain about it 8 not being done in that way." 9 MR. THARP: Correct. Rusty Tharp. I 10 thought we agreed with the visitation/not visitation 11 stuff, that the manufacturer would supply the 12 information necessary to test it. 13 MS. BARHYDT: So all that conversation was 14 in the context of AEDM. So some of this discussion is 15 going to if you don't use an AEDM, what applies to the 16 people who take the testing path? 17 MR. THARP: Okay. Thank you. 18 MR. HON: Charlie Hon. I just heard 19 something I wasn't comfortable with at all. And that 20 was the comment that if independent verification 21 groups would be in the middle of this. 22 MS. BARHYDT: So what we had discussed

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 228 1 previously was that DOE currently allows manufacturers 2 to submit certification reports through a third party 3 submitter and verification. Third party groups may 4 choose to serve as that third party submitter. I 5 think it might be a little bit of a distinction from 6 what Frank said. DOE's thought was that that third 7 party would submit that information to the Department 8 along with a certification report, not that the 9 Department would go to the third party to get that 10 information. 11 MR. HON: Thank you. That is what I was 12 concerned about because if they were going to hide 13 behind a third party and not submit information which 14 may be open to the Freedom of Information Act, those 15 of us who would choose not to use that verification 16 program would be submit to more possible issues. 17 MS. BARHYDT: So AHRI also collects the fuel 18 type and furnace type and configuration. And I will 19 admit that I have no idea what configuration means 20 there. 21 MR. STANONIK: Frank Stanonik, AHRI. I 22 think that is really a residual carryover from the

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Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 07-01-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 229 1 residential market, where you have up flow, down flow, 2 horizontals. I guess all those configurations could 3 exist in the commercial application, but I will defer 4 to the manufacturers. I am not sure if you see much 5 of a spread. 6 MS. HOOTMAN: Yes. You have configurations 7 like horizontal air flow, vertical air flow, -- 8 MR. STANONIK: Yes. 9 MS. HOOTMAN: -- you know, combinations of 10 the way -- 11 MS. BARHYDT: Is there any reason -- 12 MS. HOOTMAN: -- the air flow path goes 13 across the heat exchanger. And yes, in certain types, 14 you might make a distinction and have different 15 efficiencies for those. For the most part, I would 16 say we group them all together, but you could make 17 them distinctively different efficiencies if you 18 wanted to because there is a difference. 19 MS. BARHYDT: Is there any reason why the 20 Department would want to collect that information that 21 you can think of? I mean -- 22 MS. HOOTMAN: You would need it for tests.

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 230 1 You would need it to know how to set it up. And, you 2 know, it is going to matter how many duct diameters 3 they are going to need. 4 MS. BARHYDT: If we were testing something, 5 we would see what configuration it was. 6 MR. THARP: Not necessarily. 7 MS. BARHYDT: No? Okay. 8 MS. HOOTMAN: They are convertible from the 9 factory. 10 MS. BARHYDT: Okay. 11 MR. HON: Charlie Hon. This would also be 12 very beneficial for anyone who was searching the 13 database trying to find. Say they needed a horizontal 14 air flow unit in their design of their building. You 15 would only be looking at horizontal air flow designs 16 that way. They could compare apples to apples. 17 MS. BARHYDT: The thing I am thinking about, 18 though, is that it sounded like Jill was saying that 19 they may group some of these into one basic model. 20 And so you couldn't say that basic models were all 21 horizontal because it may include different 22 configurations within that basic model.

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 231 1 MR. KOJAK: Yes. As a third party lab, you 2 are going to want to know especially a package unit, 3 if it's down flow or horizontal. And it is a lot less 4 expensive to test the horizontal air flow than a down 5 flow unit. So, you know, if the DOE were going to use 6 a third party test lab to contact that, I would assume 7 you would want it done in the most cost-effective way 8 to test. So it would be a horizontal air flow. 9 MR. EISNER: Harvey? 10 MR. SACHS: Laura, I'm hearing some implicit 11 concern that maybe it is a good idea to limit as much 12 as possible the DOE's information requests. And the 13 question is whether compliance is more difficult for 14 people who do not choose to go through the AHRI, for 15 example, process by any of the requirements that are 16 in that AHRI as now. If not, I am not sure how much 17 effort it is worth now to see what of that list we can 18 drop, which seems to be what you are trying to do. 19 You are trying to ask which of these -- 20 MS. BARHYDT: It's not that I am trying to 21 drop things. I am trying to get people's input on 22 what they think is useful information for the

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 232 1 Department to have in a certification. I am, frankly, 2 quite ambivalent as to which pieces we collect or 3 which pieces we don't. I want to know what 4 manufacturers think we need to know -- 5 MR. SACHS: All right. That's helpful. 6 MS. BARHYDT: -- for them to have a valid 7 certification. 8 MR. SACHS: So maybe in the interest of 9 escaping, we could recast that. What of these 10 requirements on the whole page don't you like? 11 MR. EISNER: All right. Let's look at 12 Harvey's question. Is there anything on here that DOE 13 doesn't need? 14 MR. STEM: This basically just looks like 15 for boilers; right? So for each product class, you 16 are going to have its own specific list of 17 requirements that would be needed to adequately do a 18 test. So for this, it may be good for this very 19 specific product class, but, you know -- 20 MS. BARHYDT: This is commercial warm air 21 furnaces. 22 MR. STEM: Okay.

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Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 07-01-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 233 1 MR. EISNER: Is it easier to submit the same 2 information to DOE that you are submitting to AHRI 3 assuming it is, more efficient for you to just have 4 one list that you have to provide to both? 5 MR. THARP: Yes. 6 MS. HOOTMAN: Well, Rusty, I mean, we can 7 provide one to AHRI. If it means that AHRI only 8 passes part of that information on -- 9 MR. THARP: Correct. 10 MS. HOOTMAN: -- I don't really care one way 11 or the other. 12 MR. THARP: That's what I was looking at, 13 yes 14

-- 15 MS. HOOTMAN: Yes. 16 MR. THARP: -- answering yes to. 17 MR. SACHS: This is Harvey. My question was 18 actually, is there anything on this list which is 19 burdensome for people who are not participating in the 20 AHRI? I move that we let this list stand for 21 commercial warm air furnaces. 22 MS. BARHYDT: Okay. So commercial warm air

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Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 07-01-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 234 1 furnaces include fuel type, furnace type, 2 configuration, input rating, thermal efficiency, as 3 well as the PDF with testing instructions. Is there 4 anything else the Department should collect? 5 MR. AMRANE: Not necessarily. I mean, I am 6 saying this information is already available on the 7 AHRI directory. I am not sure. If DOE doesn't 8 necessarily need the information, I am not sure why 9 this information should be submitted to DOE in the 10 first place. 11 MS. MEYERS: This is -- 12 MS. BARHYDT: Not everybody is an AHRI 13 member. 14 MR. AMRANE: Right. But at the same time, 15 this is not something that you have required in the 16 past anyway. 17 MS. MEYERS: Yes. I don't think we need to 18 increase the regulations that DOE requires today. I 19 mean, I would vote that we keep it the way it is. 20 COURT REPORTER: Could you speak up, please? 21 MS. MEYERS: I don't see why we would 22 increase the information that we supply today. I

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 235 1 don't know what value it adds. So it would be my 2 recommendation that we keep the information that we 3 submit to DOE as is shown on the list up there today, 4 right now: the thermal efficiency and the maximum 5 input capacity. 6 MR. EISNER: Does anybody disagree with 7 that, those two items being submitted? Leave that 8 bottom bullet, the last, third, bullet, alone right 9 now. AHRI lists. Should they just submit the two 10 items DOE is currently getting? Anybody disagree with 11 that? 12 MR. KOJAK: And this is just for furnaces. 13 MR. EISNER: Yes. Commercial warm air 14 furnaces. 15 MS. BARHYDT: And what fuel type? 16 MR. EISNER: I don't know why it is not 17 showing up. 18 MR. BALLO: If the standard differs by fuel 19 type, you would need to include fuel type in the 20 certification to DOE. I don't recall whether it does 21 or not, but -- 22 MR. EISNER: It does not.

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 236 1 MR. STANONIK: Frank Stanonik with AHRI. I 2 think this is maybe just a happenstance. When you 3 submit to DOE, you will have to identify whether it is 4 a gas furnace or an oil furnace for the different 5 product classes; right, Laura? 6 MS. BARHYDT: If they're different product 7 classes, yes. 8 MR. STANONIK: Yes. So, even though we say 9 fuel type, DOE doesn't say it because it is inherent 10 in the reporting process. 11 MS. BARHYDT: Right. 12 MR. STANONIK: So the only thing -- and 13 personally I would have to go back and look. I am not 14 sure, again, on personal products, why we are saying 15 furnace type. I am not sure what that is. But, 16 putting that aside, what you are really talking about 17 is whether we are put configuration or not. It boils 18 down to that. 19 MR. EISNER: Give everybody a chance to look 20 up this information. 21 MR. KOJAK: This is Mike Kojak with UL. 22 I've got a question. So we don't have a lot of

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 237 1 experience testing furnaces, but there are no special 2 instructions for any lab, for any type of furnace from 3 the manufacturer that is needed? 4 MR. EISNER: You're talking about the last 5 bullet? 6 MR. KOJAK: Yes. 7 MR. EISNER: I mean, I think the issue here, 8 if I understand this correctly, is, do you simply want 9 to give them the discretion to submit what they 10 believe is necessary, they, the company, for an 11 effective test to be done? That gives you the right 12 to submit it, but it is in your discretion as to 13 whether you provide it. It would probably foreclose 14 you from complaining that they didn't test it properly 15 if you didn't give them any information about testing. 16 Did you find the answer to -- 17 MS. BARHYDT: Yes. I found what I was 18 looking for. 19 MS. MEYERS: Okay. So the PDF with 20 additional testing and instructions as necessary I 21 thought we had decided would be optional per the 22 manufacturers.

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Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 07-01-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 238 1 MR. EISNER: An option can, in effect, be a 2 requirement. It could say something like, "The 3 manufacturer shall submit any information it believes 4 is necessary for an effective test." So if they don't 5 do something you thought they should have done, it is 6 a little late for you to come back in and say, "You 7 didn't do it the right way" because you didn't tell 8 them what was necessary. It is giving you the option 9 to submit whatever you want. 10 MS. MEYERS: Right. So it's up to the 11 manufacturer whether they decide to provide that PDF. 12 I mean, for some of my products, I will definitely 13 make sure I have that PDF with additional testing. 14 Would I put it on every one of my products? Probably 15 not because it is not really needed. So my 16 recommendation was that the DOE regulation should 17 require the thermal efficiency, the maximum rated 18 input Btus, and then a PDF with additional testing 19 instructions if the manufacturer so desires. 20 MS. BARHYDT: Does everybody agree? 21 MR. EISNER: There is a difference between 22 what I think is on the table. One was, is this

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Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 07-01-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 239 1 necessary for an effective test, as opposed to what 2 they desire to submit? Some people had said, "Well, 3 there will be a disincentive to submit the information 4 until the agency tells you they are going to be doing 5 a test." So it is purely optional, but it is what you 6 think is necessary for the test to be done effectively 7 or it could be completely optional. Submit whatever 8 information you desire. Those are two very different 9 standards, though. 10 MS. BARHYDT: Karen, are you disagreeing 11 with Neil's description or were you shorthanding the - 12

- 13 MS. MEYERS: I think I was shorthanding it. 14 MS. BARHYDT: Okay. 15 MS. MEYERS: So I don't know that I disagree 16 with you. 17 MR. EISNER: Karen is saying we should have 18 three things: this, this, and a PDF with whatever 19 information the company believes is necessary for an 20 effective test. Does anybody disagree with those 21 three things? 22 MS. BARHYDT: Part of the class is already -

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 240 1

- 2 MS. MEYERS: Commercial warm air furnaces. 3 MR. EISNER: Just commercial warm air 4 furnaces. 5 MS. BARHYDT: Inherent. That is what they 6 were saying. 7 MR. EISNER: Nobody disagrees? Is somebody 8 going to -- 9 MS. BARHYDT: Okay. 10 MR. EISNER: So it is three things, and we 11 are finished with this slide. 12 MS. HOOTMAN: So type, furnace type, is 13 weatherized or non-weatherized. Don't you need to 14 know that? 15 PARTICIPANT: No. 16 MS. HOOTMAN: Don't you have the different 17 levels for -- 18 MS. BARHYDT: That's not for commercial. 19 MS. HOOTMAN: Only in the res, you have the 20

-- 21 MS. BARHYDT: Yes. 22 MS. HOOTMAN: Okay.

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 241 1 MR. EISNER: Moving on? 2 MS. BARHYDT: Yep. Commercial packaged 3 boilers. AHRI collects material, location, fuel type, 4 heating medium, input gross output, combustion 5 efficiency, thermal efficiency, steam, water, ignition 6 type, draft type, control, and it says condensing with 7 a question mark. 8 MS. TUCKER: That's whether or not it is 9 condensing or not. 10 MS. BARHYDT: Okay. Whether or not it is 11 condensing. DOE regulations currently require 12 combustion efficiency in percent or the thermal 13 efficiency in percent as required and the maximum 14 rated input capacity in BTUs per hour. 15 So since this list is shorter, do you want 16 to flip back to the AHRI list? 17 MR. HALLEY: Geoff Halley with ABMA. I was 18 wondering if somebody could give me a definition of 19 gross output on the AHRI list. 20 MR. STANONIK: Frank Stanonik, AHRI. It is 21 defined in our rating standard. I would have to look 22 it up, but, I mean, it is a calculation. It is a

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 242 1 straight calculation. I don't know it off the top of 2 my head. It is probably something like the efficiency 3 times the input or something, but it is just a simple, 4 straightforward calculation. 5 MR. HALLEY: It doesn't include radiation 6 loss maybe. 7 MR. STANONIK: I would have to go back and 8 look at it. 9 MR. HALLEY: Okay. 10 MR. STANONIK: It's not one I have back in 11 my mind. I can send it to you. It's no secret. 12 MR. HALLEY: Well, I can look it, I guess. 13 MS. MEYERS: So this is Karen Meyers 14 representing RayPak at this point, which builds these 15 units. And I would ditto my motion from before and 16 say that I believe that we should stick with what the 17 DOE regulations currently require along with a PDF 18 with additional testing instructions as necessary to 19 perform an effective test. 20 MR. MYERS: I'm sorry. I didn't hear the 21 first part of that. You are proposing what? 22 MS. MEYERS: That we stick with what the

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 243 1 current DOE regulations require, which if she puts up 2 the next slide, it will show you, so those things, 3 along with a PDF with additional testing instructions 4 as necessary to conduct an effective test. 5 MR. MYERS: (Inaudible). 6 Optional? Okay. 7 MR. EISNER: It's the same as what we -- 8 MR. CYMBALSKY: It is the same. She's 9 echoing what she said for the last product. 10 MS. MEYERS: Yes. 11 MR. CYMBALSKY: So essentially, what we're 12 doing now plus if the manufacturer wants to provide 13 the PDF for the test instructions. 14 MR. STANONIK: Right. Frank Stanonik with 15 AHRI. And again, we get this inherent in the DOE 16 regulations. You will have to be told whether it is 17 gas or oil, steam, or hot water because it is part of 18 the product classes. 19 MR. EISNER: So does anybody think they need 20 to get more information essentially than they are 21 currently getting plus the PDF? 22 MR. HALLEY: Geoff Halley with ABMA again.

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 244 1 I am happy with the DOE requirement as it is there and 2 the PDF, but I would like to point out that in the 3 sort of ABMA-represented group of boiler 4 manufacturers, the normal rating unit is the boiler 5 horsepower, which is an output, not an input, unit. I 6 mean, we can give either one. It doesn't matter. But 7 if it's rated in output, boiler horsepower, or pounds 8 of steam per hour, or whatever, then if you've got a 9 high efficiency, higher than the DOE requirement, you 10 can cut the input down for the given output, which is 11 a benefit from a fuel usage and emissions point of 12 view. 13 MS. BARHYDT: So we might be able to also 14 collect output? We have to collect input because the 15 standards are written in terms of input. 16 MR. EISNER: Does anybody else believe we 17 should add output? 18 MR. MYERS: This is Frank Myers, PVI 19 Industries. Output is available. Anybody that can 20 take the BTU input and the percent efficiency and 21 generate the output. So this is the commercial 22 market. So that is what they are used to seeing.

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 245 1 MR. HALLEY: Yes. I'm not saying we need 2 it, but I just wanted to point it out, basically. 3 MR. EISNER: Again, going back to what Karen 4 said, the two things that DOE collects now plus the 5 same sentence for the third thing that we put on the 6 prior slide, this one is for commercial packaged 7 boilers. Does anyone disagree with that suggestion, 8 those three items be collected? 9 MR. MOLVIE: This is Pete Molvie. I tend to 10 agree with leaving it the way it is with the 11 additional three items. I just wanted to make a 12 comment on Geoff Halley's pointing out that a lot of 13 the industry uses boiler horsepower or an output 14 rating. The boiler horsepower really is a nominal 15 rating that is at and from 212 degrees Fahrenheit. 16 Even though that is a commonly used industry rating 17 capacity, it almost confuses things in my mind. So I 18 tend to agree with leaving it with the input capacity 19 the way it is right now. So I support it, that 20 motion. 21 MR. EISNER: Harvey? 22 MR. SACHS: I think, if I am right, Karen's

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Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 07-01-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 246 1 comments implicitly included that the fuel type is a 2 matter of product class. So it has to be submitted. 3 So that is -- 4 MR. HURST: Can you say it louder? 5 MS. TUCKER: Since you are submitting 6 product class, you will be able to determine the fuel 7 type without us having to ask for it separately. 8 MR. EISNER: Okay. Okay? No objections? 9 Next slide: commercial water heaters. 10 MS. BARHYDT: Okay. Commercial water 11 heaters. AHRI includes energy source, heater type, 12 rated storage volume, input, thermal efficiency, 13 standby loss, and whether or not it is eligible for a 14 tax credit. 15 MR. HON: It's listed. 16 MS. BARHYDT: DOE regulations require 17 different things for different types of products. So 18 for commercial electric storage water heaters, we 19 collect maximum standby loss in percent per hour and 20 the measured storage volume in gallons. 21 For commercial gas-fired and oil-fired 22 storage water heaters, we collect minimum thermal

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Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 07-01-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 247 1 efficiency, maximum standby loss, rated storage 2 volume, measured storage volume, and the nameplate 3 input rat. 4 For commercial gas-fired and oil-fired 5 instantaneous water heaters greater than or equal to 6 ten gallons and gas-fired and oil-fired hot water 7 supply boilers greater than or equal to 10 gallons, we 8 collect minimum thermal efficiency, maximum standby 9 loss, rated storage volume, and nameplate input rate. 10 MR. KLEISS: Jeff Kleiss, Lochinvar. I just 11 want to point out that reporting the minimum thermal 12 efficiency is inconsistent with the other programs and 13 would suggest that we pull that out of the list. 14 MR. EISNER: Is there any reason you need 15 that, Laura? 16 MS. BARHYDT: I'm checking. Is that the 17 standard? 18 MR. CYMBALSKY: It's the standard. The 19 standard is written in that. So I think that is 20 important. 21 MS. BARHYDT: I'm checking. 22 MR. STANONIK: Frank Stanonik, AHRI. Are we

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 248 1 getting hung up on semantics here? The efficiency 2 rating is thermal efficiency. So you are going to 3 report the thermal efficiency of the product. Maybe 4 it's not the minimum thermal efficiency. It's thermal 5 efficiency. 6 MS. BARHYDT: Yes. It is whatever rating 7 you want. 8 MR. CYMBALSKY: Thank you. 9 MS. BARHYDT: We need to -- 10 MR. STANONIK: Yes. 11 MR. CYMBALSKY: Sorry about that. 12 MALE SPEAKER: Can we take "minimum" out? 13 MR. CYMBALSKY: Take out the word "minimum." 14 MS. BARHYDT: Yes. 15 MR. STANONIK: And then the other thing is 16 except for commercial electric, for the other 17 varieties, other fuels of commercial water heaters, 18 there is no need to have the measured storage volume 19 anymore. The standby loss' compliance requirements 20 for the other products is based on rated volume. So 21 you really don't need the measured volume for the gas 22 and oil-fired. Electric, you do because the

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 249 1 requirement is still based on measured volume. 2 MS. BARHYDT: I think we're going to want to 3 collect the storage volume because there is an 4 exclusion for water heaters and hot water supply of 5 boilers having more than 140 gallons of storage 6 capacity. And then there is also the requirement of 7 it being ten gallons or more. So usually wherever the 8 standards start including some kind of a metric, we 9 usually collect information so that we can check 10 against that. 11 MR. STANONIK: Yes, but -- Frank Stanonik, 12 AHRI. The reasons you cited will be recognizable from 13 the rated storage also. 14 MS. BARHYDT: Okay. So you were saying 15 rated only, not measured? 16 MR. STANONIK: Oh, yes, yes, yes. No. Yes. 17 You need to -- 18 MS. BARHYDT: Okay. Sorry. I -- 19 MR. STANONIK: I'm sorry. Yes. You need -- 20 MS. BARHYDT: I misheard that. Okay. 21 MR. STANONIK: -- a storage volume number. 22 I'm just saying you don't need both. And in this

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 250 1 case, you don't need the measure. 2 MS. BARHYDT: So for electric storage water 3 heaters, it's in measured. So are you saying keep it 4 for electric and -- 5 MR. STANONIK: You have to keep that one -- 6 MS. BARHYDT: Okay. 7 MR. STANONIK: -- because the specification 8 is used as that value. 9 MR. KLEISS: Jeff Kleiss, Lochinvar. I 10 think that, actually, we do need both measured and 11 rated because of the different determinations of 12 minimum standby loss, actual calculation of the 13 standby loss, as well as the determination of 14 instantaneous versus storage type. So I think we 15 actually do need both of those. 16 MS. BARHYDT: I think the Department is 17 interested in collecting that. 18 MR. CYMBALSKY: I'm very interested in the 19 measured versus the rated. 20 MR. STANONIK: Frank Stanonik, AHRI. Okay. 21 But I believe what we are talking about is what is 22 required, as opposed to what you might be interested

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 251 1 in. Look it, that is a lot of information you are 2 asking from the water heater manufacturers anyhow. 3 And the measured storage volume for the gas and oil, I 4 agree it is a curiosity, but it is not critical to -- 5 MR. CYMBALSKY: Well, this is nothing new; 6 right? This is something we already -- it is part of 7 the reg. We are not adding to the list. Is that 8 right? 9 MR. STANONIK: Well, that's what I'm saying. 10 I think you did. 11 MR. SACHS: Frank, the whole list is a 12 little bit misleading. The worst case is five bits of 13 data for the commercial gas-fired and oil-fired 14 storage. And you are saying 20 percent of that 15 information isn't necessary. 16 MR. STANONIK: I'm saying you do need the 17 rated storage volume in order to determine whether 18 your standby loss meets the federal requirement. You 19 do not need the measured storage. 20 MR. SACHS: This is Harvey Sachs. And it is 21 after my nap time. And I am having some trouble 22 thinking about how I could gain it if I had the rated

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 252 1 but not the measured. What happens if I rate a 60- 2 gallon as a 30 or vice versa? 3 MR. STANONIK: I'm sorry. This has been a 4 debate that has gone on since the first water heater 5 requirements. Okay? There are other standards in 6 place that in the case of gas and oil-fired storage 7 water heaters restrict how much the rated volume can 8 be over the measured volume. 9 MR. SACHS: That's helpful. I wasn't there 10 when the world was created, Father Frank. 11 Thank you. That is helpful. 12 MR. STANONIK: Essentially, it is covered in 13 the safety standard. So if we are talking about the - 14 - I have got to get my numbers right here. The gas 15 products basically cannot exceed -- the rated volume 16 can't be more than five percent of the actual volume. 17 Oil, it is either five or ten percent. Electric, it 18 is ten percent. 19 MR. KLEISS: Jeff Kleiss, Lochinvar. And, 20 as they were talking through that, I do believe that 21 the storage volume is necessary. The measured storage 22 volume is necessary and used in the determination of

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 253 1 the standby loss. And, as such, it would be just like 2 any other value that is used to determine the standby 3 loss and probably doesn't need to be reported from the 4 standpoint of we would be reporting the standby loss. 5 MR. EISNER: What's your reaction to that? 6 MS. BARHYDT: So -- and I don't know about 7 for this product, but I know that for other products, 8 we have had an issue where measured volume has been an 9 issue. And I think that it would be useful to the 10 Department to collect the measured volume from what 11 the manufacturers believe is the measured volume just 12 because that is used in the test procedure for 13 calculations. And so it would help us to have that 14 information for what the manufacturer believes is the 15 measured volume whenever we are doing verification 16 testing so we can kind of check ourselves against 17 whatever the manufacturer has certified. 18 MR. KLEISS: Jeff Kleiss, Lochinvar. The 19 only reason I am furrowing my brow at that is just is 20 that different from any other parameter on any other 21 product that you would want to check against. 22 MS. BARHYDT: We frequently do collect --

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 254 1 so, again, we haven't been getting certifications from 2 you guys for commercial products, but for a lot of 3 other products, we do frequently collect other pieces 4 of information that go into the calculations. 5 MR. KLEISS: Jeff Kleiss, Lochinvar. I may 6 suggest that this be something that we take home as 7 homework to investigate and double check where this is 8 referenced and needed and also find out if there is 9 any other industry objection. I don't think that this 10 should be a big stopper. This is not -- 11 MR. MYERS: This is Frank Myers, PVI. And I 12 think this is probably one of the reasons that we are 13 around the room. It seemed like a simple thing, "Hey, 14 we just want a little extra information," but when you 15 are building custom 5,000-gallon water heaters, just 16 go ahead and measure that amount of water, it is not 17 as easy as it sounds. Putting water in for testing is 18 one thing, but actually measuring the volume of water 19 that goes in, there's no -- and there is also no plus 20 or minus what tolerance, what temperature. So I 21 suggest that we not do that, at least on the larger 22 equipment.

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Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 07-01-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 255 1 One piece of information that would be 2 useful having to do with volume is a statement, "Are 3 you or are you not above 140 gallons?" because there 4 is a specific requirement tied to 140 gallons. Then 5 if there was a desire and a need to get some volume 6 information below, then maybe we can have a 7 conversation about the products that are less than 140 8 gallons that have standby loss and that sort of thing. 9 At least that is a discussion that we can have. 10 But I don't think getting the measured 11 volume is worth the effort to do. And, additionally, 12 as you get into the larger sizes, it is not an easy 13 thing. And we don't have any test method for how you 14 do that. 15 MR. STANONIK: Frank Stanonik, AHRI. Laura, 16 to your point about the measured volume, when you are 17 doing testing, in fact, when you do testing, you will 18 be required to measure the volume of that specific 19 unit that you picked up. So you will know the 20 measured volume of that unit. 21 But to ask the manufacturer to give you the 22 measured volume of the model, in fact, you could do

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 256 1 that as easily by simply taking -- in most cases, take 2 the rated storage volume, the case for gas product, 3 multiply it by .95. And I would say 98 percent of the 4 time, that is probably close to the measured volume of 5 the unit. Well, I'll back off of that. Maybe 90 6 percent of the time because commercial, you have all 7 of these tubes in there. And so they take up space 8 depending whether it's 5 fluid tubes or 12 fluid tubes 9 or 18. And that changes the measured volume. But you 10 would find all of those in a 100-gallon water heater. 11 It is not going to, I would say it is not really going 12 to, tell you as much as you think it is going to tell 13 you. 14 MR. KLEISS: Jeff Kleiss, Lochinvar. 15 Doesn't this also kind of fly in the face of what we 16 are talking about with AEDM? And how do I report 17 measured storage volume on something that I have 18 calculated but with an AEDM? 19 MR. EISNER: Is this something you want to 20 think about more? 21 MS. BARHYDT: Yes. Any other comments for 22 us to consider?

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 257 1 MR. EISNER: Is there anything else that 2 should come off the list? Anything that should be 3 added to the list besides the one we have been adding 4 to all the others at the last bullet? Yes? 5 MR. SACHS: Harvey Sachs. On slide 35 -- 6 MS. TUCKER: This one? 7 MR. SACHS: Yes. I'm a little confused, I 8 think, by the third dashed bullet about 9 "instantaneous" or tankless "water heaters greater 10 than or equal to 10 gallons." Was that supposed to be 11 less than or what am I missing? 12 MR. KLEISS: No, sir. 13 MR. SACHS: Okay. Please help me understand 14 that. 15 MR. KLEISS: Jeff Kleiss, Lochinvar. 16 "Instantaneous" is defined as anything with 4,000 BTUs 17 per -- 18 MR. SACHS: (Inaudible). 19 MR. KLEISS: Yes, sir, or more. So you 20 could have a storage -- in fact, we manufacture some 21 products that have over 100 gallons of storage, but 22 they have enough Btu input that they are considered,

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 258 1 classified as instantaneous products. 2 MR. SACHS: Are they listed as explosives? 3 MR. KLEISS: No, sir. 4 MR. SACHS: Thank you. 5 MR. EISNER: Anything else? Anything else 6 that should be added or deleted? 7 So if I understand where we are, we would 8 include everything on the list with the one question 9 remaining about the measured storage volume, where 10 that is listed. We would add the last one about 11 "provide such other information as is necessary for 12 effective testing." Anybody disagree with that, with 13 the one caveat on the storage? 14 MR. MYERS: There was one other possibility 15 that I had put out on the table, and that was to 16 include a "Yes"/"No" question over 140 -- 17 MR. EISNER: Which -- 18 MR. MYERS: -- gallons or not. 19 MR. EISNER: Yes. Make sure we've got that. 20 MR. MYERS: So "Yes"/"No." 21 MR. EISNER: Let me throw that in, the 22 "Yes"/"No" question on over 140. Does anybody

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Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 07-01-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 259 1 disagree with that? 2 MS. MEYERS: I will have to get back on that 3 one. 4 MR. EISNER: Okay. So we have got two 5 caveats on this. 6 MR. KLEISS: Also, there is no 7 classification for the instantaneous units with ten 8 gallons or less. 9 MS. TUCKER: Next page. 10 MR. KLEISS: It is? Very top. Sorry. 11 MR. EISNER: Less than 10 gallons. 12 MR. KLEISS: My mistake. 13 MR. SACHS: Frank, this is Harvey Sachs with 14 a question. The 140 gallon is ASME, Frank? 15 MR. MYERS: No. If your product is over 140 16 gallons, then you don't have to comply with the 17 standby loss test. You can provide R-12.5 insulation. 18 MR. SACHS: Thanks. I had forgotten that. 19 MR. EISNER: Okay. Do I hear any objections 20 to that with the two caveats on the "Yes"/"No" 21 question in the storage. Okay. So that has got to be 22 added to our list to get back to tomorrow. People can

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 260 1 get answers by tomorrow, including DOE? Does DOE 2 think it will be ready tomorrow or do you need more 3 time to talk about that issue? 4 MS. BARHYDT: We'll probably be ready 5 tomorrow. 6 MR. EISNER: Okay. Will everybody else be 7 ready on their issues? 8 Okay. Let's go on to the next one. 9 MS. BARHYDT: Whoa. 10 MS. TUCKER: Sorry. 11 MS. BARHYDT: Wait. We didn't step through 12 all the slides for the commercial water heaters. So, 13 as Jeff mentioned, there are less than ten gallons. 14 And then there are also the unfired hot water storage 15 tanks. And, given that Jeff asked a lot of questions 16 several weeks ago, I just want to make sure we are all 17 clear on why we are collecting some of the things we 18 are collecting for unfired. 19 MR. STANONIK: Frank Stanonik, AHRI. No 20 argument that DOE can collect the information for the 21 unfired. There is a regulation. I think the issue is 22 and our position is that no testing is required

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 261 1 because, in fact, the insulation is a prescriptive 2 requirement. And so I think that's not -- well, maybe 3 it is part of this, what information is required, but 4 we still maintain that there is no testing required to 5 establish compliance. It is just a question of, do 6 you have enough insulation on the product which the R 7 value comes from your vendor? 8 MR. EISNER: Does this regulation, where it 9 currently sets out what information is required, say 10 anything about testing? 11 MS. BARHYDT: One second. 12 MR. EISNER: TFR break. 13 MS. BARHYDT: Okay. Sorry. What was the 14 question? Sorry. I was writing notes down. 15 MR. STANONIK: It was actually more of a 16 statement. 17 MS. BARHYDT: Sorry. 18 MR. STANONIK: That's okay. No. What I was 19 saying was that we don't contest that DOE should get 20 information on unfired storage tanks. There is a 21 federal requirement. Our position is that it is a 22 prescriptive requirement, it has to be insulated to X

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Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 07-01-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 262 1 level, and that there is no testing required by the 2 manufacturer to establish compliance. It is merely 3 did you get enough insulation, whatever the R value is 4 you get from your vendor, and then did you put enough 5 on there? 6 MS. BARHYDT: So we would agree that the 7 manufacturers are not required to do the testing 8 themselves, but we do think that somebody should have 9 tested it to make sure that the R value is actually 10 not just a made-up number. 11 MR. STANONIK: Well, yes, but -- 12 MS. BARHYDT: But yes. We agree the 13 manufacturers can rely on the representations of their 14 suppliers. 15 MR. STANONIK: Yes, exactly. I am saying 16 understand that there is a contractual agreement 17 there. The manufacturer is buying either this 18 insulation, whether it is fiberglass blanket or an 19 insulation- blowing foam system, with the 20 understanding that you are going to provide to me, in 21 fact, what I need, which is, let's say, a foam that 22 has an R-8 per inch or whatever. I mean, it is

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 263 1 critical to the manufacturer that he gets what he is 2 paying for. 3 MR. HON: Charlie Hon, True Manufacturing. 4 That's a loaded gun because thermal insulation not 5 only dependent on the product you buy but also the 6 technique you use to put it in. If you overpack a 7 unit, you will change your efficiencies tremendously. 8 So it is a process control as well as a purchase 9 control. So you will have to be very careful of that 10 because we run into the same thing in refrigeration. 11 If we choose to foam our cabinets differently, we can 12 change the insulation value by 20-25 percent. 13 MR. KLEISS: Jeff Kleiss, Lochinvar. There 14 are a number of things. Number one, what you, Laura, 15 had just said about the manufacturer being able to 16 rely on suppliers' claimed ratings is not consistent 17 with what I have been told previously. And there is a 18 problem with reporting in the DOE template in that we 19 are required to indicate how many units we have tested 20 to generate that data. So I don't falsify the data 21 that I'm supporting to the federal government, I would 22 like clarification on that point.

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 264 1 MS. BARHYDT: So the manufacturer should 2 ensure that there has been testing done. They are 3 allowed to rely on their suppliers, but they need to 4 make sure there is something behind those claims. And 5 so typically that involves testing by somebody. So it 6 is still the manufacturer certifying that, to the best 7 of your knowledge and belief and based on the 8 information available to you, so that you are still 9 certifying it. 10 MR. KLEISS: Jeff Kleiss. So I'm required 11 to have a certain number of test reports or, again, if 12 I am going to report that how many units have been 13 tested, what is my responsibility? 14 MS. BARHYDT: Let me get back to you on 15 that. I want to make sure that I don't contradict 16 anything that was said in the rulemaking. 17 MR. KLEISS: Okay. Again, Jeff Kleiss. In 18 moving on, then, if we are ready to, the measured 19 storage volume in gallons for commercial unfired water 20 storage tanks, there is no standby heat loss that is 21 done. There is no efficiency metric that is based on 22 the storage volume of unfired storage tanks, and there

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Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 07-01-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 265 1 is no methodology test method for determining that. 2 So I would recommend that that is removed from the 3 list. 4 MS. BARHYDT: Okay. We'll talk about that 5 one since it has been suggested that we drop it for 6 most of the different types. 7 MR. EISNER: Anything else? 8 MR. BALLO: I just had a question about the 9 instantaneous models. For those more than 140 gallons 10 to avoid the standby loss requirement, there is also a 11 requirement for not having a standing pilot, fire 12 damper, or fan-assisted combustion. Is there any sort 13 of certification that I don't have a standing pilot or 14

-- 15 MS. BARHYDT: I have a note to myself that 16 we need to look at that. 17 MR. BALLO: Okay. 18 MR. EISNER: Okay. So a bunch of things 19 have to be checked overnight on this. 20 MS. BARHYDT: Yes. 21 MR. EISNER: Anything else on commercial 22 water heaters?

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 266 1 MR. SACHS: Harvey Sachs. On the unfired 2 tanks, I have a mental model of these things. And I'm 3 not what the PDF with additional testing instructions 4 would contain. 5 MS. BARHYDT: We're giving people the 6 option. 7 MR. SACHS: Righty, tighty. 8 MR. EISNER: CRE. 9 MS. BARHYDT: Okay. CRE. AHRI collects 10 operating temperature, refrigerant type, volume, 11 adjusted volume, TDEC, TDEC per volume, TDA, TDEC per 12 TDA, CDEC -- okay; you can read all of the letters -- 13 merchandiser lights, merchandiser heat, number of 14 shelves, shelf lights, fan motor type, defrost method, 15 and doors. 16 DOE regulations currently require for self17 contained commercial refrigerators with solid doors, 18 commercial refrigerators with transparent doors, 19 commercial freezers with solid doors, and commercial 20 freezers with transparent doors, the maximum daily 21 energy consumption and the chilled or frozen 22 compartment volume in cubic feet; for self-contained

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Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 07-01-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 267 1 commercial refrigerator-freezers with solids doors, 2 the maximum average daily energy consumption and the 3 adjusted volume in cubic feet. 4 For remote condensing -- okay -- for a lot 5 of different types of equipment, -- you can read the 6 list -- maximum daily energy consumption, total 7 display area or chilled volume as necessary to 8 demonstrate compliance with standards, the rating 9 temperature, the operating temperature range, the 10 equipment family designation, and the condensing unit 11 configuration. 12 MR. HON: Charlie Hon. A couple of things. 13 Number one is under the second bullet on the first 14 page, "maximum average daily energy consumption," 15 that's a single-day task. It should not be average. 16 Above it is the same. It is different up above. It 17 says, "maximum daily energy consumption." That one 18 should be the same. 19 MS. BARHYDT: Yes. 20 MS. TUCKER: I took the "average" out. 21 MR. HON: Okay. I just saw it disappear, 22 yes. Wonderful.

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 268 1 MS. TUCKER: Good. 2 MR. SACHS: Laura? This is Harvey Sachs. I 3 am a little pedantic, but can you change the word 4 "solid" to the word "nontransparent"? I'm having 5 trouble visualizing the liquid in gas phase doors. 6 It's either transparent or not transparent. 7 None of these are liquid doors; are they? Oh, that's 8 next year. 9 MS. BARHYDT: So, unfortunately, Harvey, the 10 standards are written as having either solid doors or 11 transparent doors. So we are stuck with solid doors. 12 MR. SACHS: You could just define the term, 13 though. 14 MS. BARHYDT: I believe solid doors is 15 actually defined. 16 MR. STEM: Would you have any issue with 17 flow rate for the remote condensers, refrigerant flow 18 rates? I'm just thinking the more information we could 19 get ahead of time, the better. 20 MR. HON: Charlie Hon. The remote 21 condensers are not under the standard. 22 MR. SHEBIK: Ron Shebik with Hussmann. When

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 269 1 you say, "flow rate," are you looking for the like Btu 2 per linear foot? 3 MR. STEM: Yes, the refrigerant flow rate. 4 MR. HON: Yes. 5 MR. STEM: Yes, pounds per hour, everyone. 6 MR. HON: Charlie Hon. That's dependent on 7 a lot of other variables: depending on the 8 temperature of the fluids and the nature of the fluid. 9 So it can be changed a great deal and not really give 10 you any real information. The standard itself has a 11 calculation built into it to allot for that. 12 MR. STEM: Okay. 13 MR. SHEBIK: Thinking about that. I mean, 14 we 15

-- 16 MR. HON: Charlie Hon again. If it's 134A 17 flowing through, it is going to give you different 18 numbers than 404A flowing through the same volume. 19 MR. SHEBIK: Ron Shebik, Hussmann. So 20 you're saying we had specified refrigerant with the 21 flow rate if that is needed. 22 MR. HON: The standard has built-in

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 270 1 calculations to take all of that into account and 2 actually give a final number. 3 MR. STEM: Even if it was like in that PDF 4 document that you're talking about, the optional 5 supplemental data to help, you know, make sure that 6 you have a sanity check when you are running a test. 7 That's just a piece of information that wasn't up 8 there I thought might be useful. 9 MS. DANE: This is Mary from Traulsen. The 10 only thing about providing those PDF documents is that 11 is quite burdensome to put together. And I know that 12 they were saying, "Well, then you don't have a right 13 to complain if we do the test setup wrong," but every 14 single model gets set up differently and the amount of 15 information. Are we talking about going from where to 16 put a thermal couple all the way up to, you know, 17 where to set it? I mean, that is a lot of 18 information. So if we accidentally don't put 19 something in a PDF and the test is still set up wrong 20

-- 21 MR. KOJAK: This is Mike Kojak with UL. 22 That wasn't the original intent because that is what I

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 271 1 brought up originally. It is more for the HVAC group 2 because a lot of -- if it's a high-efficiency unit, 3 you have to force the unit, let's say, to run at a 4 high speed, a medium speed, and low speed if it's 5 variable speed. And no one knows how to do that but 6 the manufacturer. So those are the kinds of things 7 that I was looking for for the additional test 8 instructions, not so much the CRE, because the test is 9 -- the setup is very descriptive exactly where you put 10 the thermal couples, how you build it, you know, how 11 you load it, everything. So for the CRE stuff, I 12 wouldn't see a big deal with that. It was mostly 13 geared towards the HVAC portion of this. 14 MR. STEM: Yes. I don't agree with that 15 simply because, especially with remotes, you may have 16 a specific way you want to set charging instruction on 17 that condenser; right? And I've heard it's standard 18 lab practice to put the thermocouple here or here or 19 here. I mean, there are 14 different places we could 20 put it to set a super heat on the condenser or however 21 you want to do it. So any information like that that 22 would be applicable for remote condensers, CRE would

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 272 1 be helpful, but it's stuff that's maybe not -- I don't 2 know. I don't know how you determine whether it's out 3 of the normal or not. 4 MR. SHEBIK: Ron Shebik with Hussmann. 5 Based on what you are saying, I am not sure where you 6 draw the line because, in addition to your sensors, I 7 mean, you could be looking at discharge temperatures 8 and a lot of other things. I am not sure if everyone 9 publishes that information or not. We publish a lot 10 of it on our products, but I can't speak for all 11 manufacturers. 12 MR. STEM: Yes. Several people put it in 13 their insulation manuals, you know, how charting 14 instructions are clearly defined but they are several 15 that do not. And then it never fails. You know, if 16 it is two or three are a little bit vague. And we 17 always choose the wrong one, you know, invariably. 18 MR. KLEISS: Jeff Kleiss, Lochinvar. Just a 19 question to the manufacturer of this equipment. Is 20 that something that is more of a procedural thing that 21 needs to be clarified in the test procedure and should 22 not necessarily be a manufacturer's responsibility to

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 273 1 specify? 2 MR. SHEBIK: I can't -- I wouldn't go as far 3 as to say it is a procedural issue. I am trying to 4 figure out how to get that point across. Like I said, 5 most of our technical publications have all of the 6 information. And they have that information. So it 7 is readily available. I'm sorry. I'm not sure if 8 it's a procedure issue or not. I don't consider it a 9 procedure issue. 10 MR. AMRANE: This is Karim Amrane with AHRI. 11 I think we should keep it optional like we did for the 12 Department. I mean, it is up to the manufacturers. 13 If they feel that this information should be in the 14 PDF or not, I mean, then at least -- 15 MR. SHEBIK: I mean, I guess I don't see the 16 problem with including it, but I can't speak for 17 everyone on that if it's -- I wouldn't think it would 18 be an issue. 19 MR. AMRANE: You should leave it optional. 20 MS. DANE: I just want to make sure that we 21 can complain if we need to complain. It's my favorite 22 part of the whole day.

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 274 1 MR. HON: Charlie Hon. I have a couple of 2 questions just for technical reasons. Operating 3 temperature ranges on page 39 of the original 4 documents, operating temperature range is about 32, 5 below 32, and below -5. Those are near some ranges 6 that are common but not necessarily falling into the 7 test standard requirements. It is -15 testing, not - 8 5. 9 MS. BARHYDT: So those are examples. 10 Manufacturers could put whatever -- 11 MR. HON: Okay. Refrigerator freezer and 12 ice cream freezer is generally what is in the code; 13 right? 14 MS. BARHYDT: Yes, I think so. 15 MR. SHEBIK: Right above it, we have rating 16 temperature in degrees Fahrenheit, one degree or -15.0 17 and 38. So is there a reason to have both? I think 18 the operating range would just be more confusing. 19 MS. BARHYDT: So the rating temperature is a 20 single point; whereas, an operating range would be 21 what the full range of what the product is intended to 22 operate at.

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 275 1 MR. SHEBIK: Sure. Right. But if you are 2 testing at -15, you know it is an ice ring. If you 3 are testing at zero, you know it is a low temp. If 4 you are testing at 38, you know it's a medium temp. 5 MR. HON: Ron, this is Charlie Hon. There 6 are going to be some variations in that because of 7 certain variations which are in the test procedure or 8 going to have special test requirements, such as 9 floral cabinets, which are tested warmer than 38 10 degrees; ice storage cabinets, which are tested in the 11 low 20s. And there are a couple of other categories, 12 but they do pop into -- there in some oddball 13 specialty application refrigeration that cannot be 14 tested in any of the individual numbers. 15 MR. SHEBIK: Right, but based on your 16 waiver, don't you specify that? 17 MR. HON: But how do you report it? How do 18 you show it if you don't have it marked down? 19 MR. SHEBIK: Okay. I'm sorry. I was 20 thinking of including a rating temperature. 21 MR. KOJAK: Is this going to be a test where 22 you have to actually see what the integrated adverse

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 276 1 temperature of the cases range or are you talking just 2 a thermostat range because if you say, you know, if 3 the upper end is 40 degrees, but actually, the 4 thermostat says 40, but the integrated average 5 temperature is a different temperature, are you 6 requiring the rating temperature, the range from 7 actually what you are seeing average in the case or 8 are you talking about just what the thermostat is 9 going to say? 10 MR. SHEBIK: If I understand your question, 11 it should be integrated average temperature throughout 12 the whole entire case. 13 MR. KOJAK: That's why I was just asking 14 because not only is that -- you know, I have seen some 15 cases that the temperature on the front, test saying 16 what the temperature inside is is not close. So I was 17 just curious to see when you are talking about the 18 ranges like that, is it the actual what you are seeing 19 inside or what the thermostat is saying? 20 MS. BARHYDT: What we meant was the range of 21 temperatures that it was rated to operate at. So in 22 the residential side, we sometimes see refrigerators

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 277 1 that operate across a very wide range of temperatures 2 because they are also marketed as wine coolers. But 3 they also get down cold enough to be a refrigerator. 4 So it is the full range of what it is intended to 5 operate at. And it is for the model. It is not for 6 an individual unit. So it's more of a rating. 7 MR. SHEBIK: I have one more question, the 8 very last bullet, condensing and configuration. Are 9 you looking at like parallel and conventional or what 10 are you looking at? And if that's what it is, I would 11 ask why? 12 MR. MARANTON: This is Aris Maranton, 13 Navigant. For that last bullet, condensing unit 14 configuration, it's just whether or not it's self15 contained or remote. 16 MR. SHEBIK: What's -- okay. I follow you 17 because E is self-contained, I guess, SOC in there. 18 Okay. 19 MR. EISNER: Other questions or comments? 20 I'm not sure where we are on this. A lot of 21 suggestions about a lot of individual bullets. 22 Anybody want to summarize? Why don't we

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 278 1 start with page, I guess it's 39. 2 MS. BARHYDT: Actually, if we go back to -- 3 oh, it's 39 up there. 4 MR. EISNER: I mean, what do we -- where are 5 we on what we want for self-contained? 6 MS. BARHYDT: So is there anything else 7 other than the maximum daily energy consumption in the 8 chilled or frozen compartment volume that we should be 9 collecting? 10 What about for self-contained commercial 11 refrigerator/freezers with solid doors? Nothing? 12 Okay. 13 What about the vast majority of other types? 14 MR. HON: Question for clarity. Did -- does 15 the standard ever consider maximum allowable use 16 energy for that size product just as a clarification 17 point? I know that Energy Star does. They list what 18 the maximum allowable power consumption is if you are 19 this size volume. 20 MS. BARHYDT: You mean, what the standard 21 is? 22 MR. HON: Yes.

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 279 1 MS. BARHYDT: That could be calculated out 2 from -- it should be able to be -- 3 MR. HON: Right. 4 MS. BARHYDT: -- calculated out from the 5 other information we collect. 6 MR. HON: It can be. I'm just asking if 7 you're going to. 8 MS. BARHYDT: But we don't require people to 9

-- 10 MR. HON: Okay. 11 MS. BARHYDT: -- submit that as a piece of 12 data. 13 MR. EISNER: So, on the third one, remove 14 condensing, et cetera, anybody see any additions or 15 deletions they want? 16 No objections to the current list of six 17 items? 18 MR. EISNER: And what about the PDF, the 19 same as we have in the others or is there a problem 20 here? I heard some discussions; it sounded like 21 problems. Don't want to be held to your -- 22 MR. MOLVIE: As I said, I would say that it

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 280 1 should be optional, but I don't want that to preclude 2 being able to discuss if a test was set up wrong. 3 I mean, we've had tests set up and run 4 incorrectly before. Even when we have a test standard 5 that we give them, there's things that are considered 6 to be engineers' decisions and things like that. I 7 mean, this is different from the AEDM process. 8 MR. EISNER: Again, I defer to Energy on 9 this. But if you give an engineering standard and you 10 think it was applied improperly by the person doing 11 the test, I would assume that would be something that 12 would be discussed. 13 MS. DANE: I heard some talk earlier about 14 if you don't submit the information then you can't 15 complain if the test wasn't done. 16 MR. EISNER: Well, if you're asked for any 17 standards you think are necessary -- any instructions 18 you think are necessary for the test and you give them 19 nothing in an extreme case -- 20 MS. DANE: Oh. 21 MR. EISNER: -- it's hard for you to go in 22 and say they shouldn't have done it that way.

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 281 1 MS. DANE: Right. So okay. So the 2 difference would be at the time of certification. It 3 would be very burdensome to provide on every single 4 unit we submit how you set up each and every unit. 5 But if they chose one for enforcement testing, not so 6 much; that if there was a question that would come up, 7 I would assume the lab they chose would call us and we 8 would be able to provide information, then. 9 MR. SHEBIK: But again, the lab can contact 10 you or us. 11 MS. DANE: No, I thought they were going to 12 contact the DOE if they couldn't do the test. 13 MALE SPEAKER: Well, I mean, typically we 14 would do the test to -- in accordance with the 15 standard and set it up, put flow meters in, you know, 16 talking a remote obviously, put the flow meters in, 17 put the temperature sensors on, and charge it to the 18 instructions. 19 But if you have a different methodology 20 than, say, we do with charging, then, you know, we 21 could be short, you know, a few ounces, a few pounds 22 depending on, you know, how different our

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 282 1 methodologies are. So and that's -- you know, that's 2 what we want to eliminate. We don't want to have to 3 repeat testing or, you know, cause a big stink if we 4 can avoid it. 5 MR. WHITWELL: Or I guess if there's 6 something special that needs to be done in order to be 7 able to run it per the test procedures, if you need 8 some certain settings that you have to make on the 9 equipment or something like that, that we would want 10 to get in there. 11 But it still is the intent or it still needs 12 to be run per the test standard. 13 MS. BARHYDT: Yes. 14 MR. WHITWELL: Right. 15 MS. BARHYDT: Correct, absolutely. And that 16 is that part of this discussion later on. I think I 17 see that on the list -- testing standards. 18 MALE SPEAKER: How much are we going to get 19 into that? 20 MS. BARHYDT: That's -- actually, I think 21 that's referring to it in a different context. The 22 test procedures themselves are not part of the

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 283 1 discussion. 2 MR. CYMBALSKY: So I guess, Mary, what we're 3 trying to do for you here is to give you an 4 opportunity to provide the test lab any special 5 instructions, that clearly you can't deviate from the 6 test procedure. That is what it is. 7 But if there is something unique to your 8 set- up or like Mike said, the way you charge it, it's 9 in your best interest to provide that information any 10 way you can with your submissions. I mean, it's just 11 to protect you in the case where there could be some 12 judgment used in the testing set-up. 13 But again, we're not going to require it but 14 they're going to test it and -- 15 MR. SHEBIK: Ron Shebik with Hussmann. I do 16 have one question, and you guys maybe remember this, 17 some manufacturers I'm aware of do, in their technical 18 publications, your evap temperatures and your 19 discharge temperatures are based on what's required to 20 keep your temperatures in the case below 41 degrees to 21 meet the food code requirements, which is not the same 22 as HR 1200 which you could have temperatures above 41

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 284 1 degrees. 2 So you're actually -- you could be running 3 the case colder than what's required. Is that going 4 to cause a problem? 5 MS. BARHYDT: Are you asking if you can 6 provide alternate -- 7 MR. SHEBIK: Because it wouldn't -- 8 MS. BARHYDT: -- instructions in accordance 9 with -- 10 MR. SHEBIK: I don't know. 11 MS. BARHYDT: No. 12 MR. SHEBIK: I mean, I might want to do 13 that. That's what I'm saying. But do you see that as 14 being a problem? I don't want to have HR 1200 15 instructions and instructions for maintaining the 16 proper food safety temperatures. 17 MR. AMRANE: This is Karim with AHRI. I 18 think doing the test based -- according to the test 19 procedure. If the test procedures called for a 20 different temperature, then you have to test at that - 21 - at that temperature. And this is what it is. 22 MR. SHEBIK: Okay. So you're -- okay. So

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 285 1 you're -- 2 MR. AMRANE: It's -- the test procedure is - 3

- 4 MR. SHEBIK: Okay. 5 MR. AMRANE: -- whatever -- 6 MR. SHEBIK: Okay. 7 MR. AMRANE: -- test procedure DOE has 8 adopted. 9 MR. SHEBIK: Okay. So -- okay. That's 10 fine. You know, it clears it up. 11 MS. BARHYDT: It makes sense. 12 MR. SHEBIK: Yes. 13 MS. BARHYDT: Okay. Anything else? 14 MR. EISNER: Are you comfortable with the 15 last item that we've been adding to all the others? 16 Can you add it here? Any objections? 17 Okay. Let's go on to the next one. 18 MS. BARHYDT: PTACs. AHRI directory 19 currently includes heat type, cooling capacity, EER, 20 heating capacity, and COP where applicable. 21 DOE regulations currently require the EER, 22 the COP where applicable, the cooling capacity, and

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 286 1 the wall sleeve dimensions. So there's a little bit 2 less overlap here than there is on some of the other. 3 MR. EISNER: So the first question: Is there 4 anything that is on the DOE list that shouldn't be 5 there? 6 The second question is: Is there anything 7 that's not on it that should be on it? 8 MR. WHITWELL: Yeah, this is Bob Whitwell. 9 Just a question about the wall sleeve dimensions. Why 10 -- is that something that DOE needs as part of the 11 certification? I would assume that the wall sleeve is 12 -- although it can be, should product -- separately, 13 the -- when you receive the chassis, it would describe 14 what the wall sleeve should be. 15 MS. BARHYDT: So I think the idea was that 16 it was based on what it was rated at with what 17 dimension of wall sleeve. But since we've talked 18 earlier about setting a standard wall sleeve for 19 ratings, I don't think that that would be -- 20 MR. AMRANE: I think there are two issues 21 here. I think that might be one. But I think the 22 current standard, there are two levels: One for

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 287 1 standard size PTACs and one for non-standard size 2 PTACS. 3 So I think that you wanted one dimension to 4 know if it's standard size or non-standard size. 5 MR. WHITWELL: Okay. 6 MR. EISNER: Anything else that should not 7 be on the list or should be on the list? 8 Okay. What about the addition to the five 9 that are -- four that are on the list? What about 10 adding the usual last one about the PDF, anybody 11 object to adding that? 12 Okay. Let's go to SPVU. 13 MS. BARHYDT: AHRI directory currently 14 includes cooling capacity, EER, heating capacity, COP 15 where applicable, and IPOV. 16 DOE regs currently require the EER, the COP 17 where applicable, and the cooling capacity. 18 MR. HUNT: Hi. This is Marshall Hunt. I 19 couldn't get in on the last one, the PTs. Could you 20 go back onto I, please. 21 MS. BARHYDT: For PTACS? 22 MR. HUNT: Yes. I've always been bothered

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 288 1 by the fact that the PTACs I know of, and I hope I'm 2 wrong about this now, would essentially go into 3 resistance heating at about 40, 41 degrees. 4 Does The COP capture that resistance heating 5 or is it at a much higher, say, 47 degree test point? 6 So both regulators, customers, utilities don't under - 7 - realize it's such a poor performer down below 40. 8 MS. BARHYDT: It's 47. 9 MR. WHITWELL: It's 47 degrees. 10 MS. BARHYDT: The test standard's 47. 11 MR. HUNT: But where's resistance heat kick 12 in? 13 MR. WHITWELL: It depends on the 14 manufacturer. 15 MR. HUNT: But it puts an unfair advantage 16 on the PTAC when compared to a split or a package 17 system heat pump which with resistant heat coming in 18 later continues to heat to the balance point or to the 19 -- yeah, the balance point in the flow versus capacity 20 curves. 21 So the very least we need a recording of at 22 what temperature does the unit go into resistance

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 289 1 heating. It's probably -- I wouldn't be able to ask 2 for a COP at 17 which you have to do for a central 3 heat pump. 4 MS. BARHYDT: Bob, can you -- 5 MR. WHITWELL: That sounds like a standard 6 issue. Right. 7 MS. HOOTMAN: Yeah, that's issue. 8 MR. HUNT: So we can ask for the controls. 9 We can say what -- at what temperature do you -- does 10 the system go into resistance heating. 11 MR. THARP: Rusty Tharp with Goodman. I 12 need to come back. I can come back tomorrow with some 13 information quite possibly. 14 MR. AMRANE: And, Marshall, this is Karim 15 with AHRI. The information will be for whom, for you 16 or for who? I mean, who's asking for the information? 17 MR. HUNT: It would be for the utility, it 18 would be for simulations. If I am simulating a PTAC 19 unit, I'm doing hourly data. If COP changes from 20 whatever its rating is to one, at that temperature, 21 unless we have more information from the manufacturer, 22 also the customer needs to know because they'd be

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 290 1 unfairly comparing, let's say, a mini-split heat pump 2 or a central heat pump to a PTAC unit. 3 These PTACs are not the greatest heat pumps 4 in the world. 5 MR. WHITWELL: Wouldn't that be something 6 the customer would go to the manufacturer to get 7 rather than rely on getting it from DOE? 8 MR. HUNT: It's an easy number. Just tell 9 me what is the control point. It's one box on a form. 10 41, 42, 35? 11 MR. SACHS: Marshall, this is Harvey. And I 12 appreciate the concern, having suffered through many 13 nights with PTACs in no-tell hotels, but I think that 14 for you alls utility, there is a path to acquiring any 15 information you want, whether or not it's in the 16 standards. If you're giving a rebate for only pink 17 PTACs, you can give rebates for pink PTACs. 18 And I think our path forward may be to use 19 that to determine what information needs to be thought 20 about at the next revision of the standard. I'm not 21 sure we can reach that with this process. 22 MR. HUNT: But let's say I had an upstream

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 291 1 rebate for a distributor or for a manufacturer and I 2 set what -- EER and COP on this, I set those levels 3 and I also wanted to set the change-over to resistance 4 heating number. How would -- what models would be -- 5 how would I know what models to look for if I sent my 6 people out checking how the rebate was done? 7 MR. SACHS: Well, I think it would be like 8 anything else, that the manufacturer would have to 9 certify that it met your requirements. It's a 10 contract issue. 11 MR. HUNT: Okay. I'll try another way. 12 I've taught ACCA courses all over the United States 13 plus Lowe's commercial loads and it is amazing how 14 many people had no idea that these units stop being 15 their heat pump at such high temperature. 16 And we're really -- change the design 17 community's approach to some of these. I should think 18 people developed who are -- have a competing project - 19 - products would like to know that, have a fair 20 playing field. 21 If I have a unit, like a split system heat 22 pump, that performs -- performs very well down in the

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 292 1 teens or below, I certainly don't want to compete with 2 a PTAC that claims that the COP unit's really rated at 3 47 percent. 4 I think it's a customer protection, customer 5 information issue. 6 MR. SACHS: My heart is with you. 7 MS. HOOTMAN: This is Jill from Trane. I 8 understand what you're saying, Marshall, but really is 9 the Department of Energy the consumer protection? I'm 10 not sure that that is their role here. 11 MR. HUNT: Where else can I get the 12 information? 13 MS. HOOTMAN: Like I said, it is -- it does 14 - - it is in the manufacturer's literature. There are 15 many things that contractors and many of the system 16 designers do not read in our literature or do not 17 understand, but that is an education issue that we 18 have in the industry. And I don't know that a 19 regulation from the department is going to effectively 20 change that. 21 MR. HUNT: But if you had the list -- this 22 is the last thing I'll rant about -- if you -- if we

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 293 1 had a listing there and we were -- had a flier 2 advising customers what to look for in a packaged heat 3 pump, we could tell them to be sure to notice when the 4 unit switches over from heat pump operations to 5 resistance heat and look for products that could do 6 that at a very low level. 7 For example, split system heat pumps do not 8 go into resistance heating at such high temperatures. 9 MR. SACHS: Marshall, I think we have a -- I 10 just picked up something. This is Harvey. And I 11 think we have a different issue. This is about 12 packaged terminal air conditioners, not about packaged 13 air conditioners and packaged heat pumps. It's not 14 about rooftop units but about these darn curtain 15 shakers -- 16 MR. HUNT: Darn curtain shaker. 17 MR. SACHS: -- in the low rent hotel. 18 MS. HOOTMAN: Exactly. 19 MR. HUNT: I know. I know. And it looks so 20 good if you think about the fact that if you took that 21 rating without knowing any of this, you think, oh, 22 they look great, I have no duct losses, they're

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 294 1 central, now we have some good controls, I can put 2 them in a -- little offices or doing a remodel or 3 something and -- anyway, I don't sense anyone's with 4 me, but I just want to point this out. 5 MR. THARP: Marshall, this is Rusty with 6 Goodman. Our literature specifically states the 7 temperature at which it could operate down to. 8 MR. HUNT: Thank you. I'd love to look at 9 it. And I appreciate that. 10 MR. SACHS: The other thing, Marshall, not 11 to beat you or a dead horse, is that the PTAC decision 12 is essentially locked in at design time which we'd 13 really like to have the information to the owners that 14 these things are dog meat. It's not a retro-fit 15 issue. I'm sorry, Rusty. 16 MR. STARR: This is Louis Starr, NEEA. Just 17 in our local codes, we take -- or at least 18 Oregon/Washington we write it in the codes that we 19 lock out the temperatures below certain things. So we 20 just take care of any codes. 21 And also the other problem you have with 22 this is when they get its temperature away from set

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 295 1 point which kicks in your electric heat/reheat, so we 2 also take care of it through the controls. 3 So a lot of this is really -- the best way 4 to address it is through codes, maybe through national 5 codes. I encourage everybody in 2015 IAC process to 6 get involved. 7 MR. SACHS: Thanks, Russ. 8 MR. HUNT: Onward and upward. Thank you. 9 I'll go back on you. 10 MS. BARHYDT: Okay. SPVUs. Anything else 11 we should collect, anything less we should collect? 12 MR. EISNER: So the three things are 13 currently collecting, do we agree, no more no less? 14 MS. BARHYDT: And the usual last bullet, add 15 that. 16 Okay. That takes it -- us up to air cooled 17 - - hold on. Actually, one second. So we have 18 cooling capacity, AHRI has heating capacity, too? 19 Should we have heating capacity? 20 MR. EISNER: Do we know why it wasn't in 21 there originally? Any reason here we shouldn't add 22 "heating capacity"?

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 296 1 MR. AMRANE: Karim Amrane, AHRI. The 2 regulations are -- are based on the cooling capacity 3 anyway. So that's what the matter is, so. 4 MR. EISNER: Okay. So we're set on SPVU. 5 Air cooled, small, large, and et cetera. 6 MS. BARHYDT: Okay. So AHRI directory 7 currently includes cooling capacity, EER, IEER, high 8 heating capacity, high heating COP, low heating 9 capacity, low heating COP, and AHRI type which I 10 believe corresponds somewhat to the DOE different 11 equipment classes. Somewhat, not exactly, but -- 12 MR. AMRANE: Right. 13 MS. BARHYDT: -- conceptually, it's similar. 14 MR. AMRANE: Yes. Karim with AHRI. But 15 you're missing all the product below 65,000 BTU. 16 MS. BARHYDT: That's right. Thanks. This 17 is -- okay. I see. 18 MR. AMRANE: Should have both. 19 MS. BARHYDT: So DOE regs currently require 20 for small commercial packaged air conditioning that is 21 air cooled with cooling capacity less than 65,000 BTU. 22 Would that also -- that's also only three phase. Is

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 297 1 that right? 2 MR. AMRANE: Right. 3 MS. BARHYDT: Yeah, three phase. 4 MR. AMRANE: But if it's less than 65,000 -- 5 MS. BARHYDT: So that's -- we collect SEER, 6 HSPF, and the cooling capacity for commercial packaged 7 air conditioning and heating equipment. All other 8 types we collect EER, COP, cooling capacity, and the 9 type of heating used by the unit. 10 MR. EISNER: Okay. Anything that should be 11 added or subtracted from the DOE list? 12 MALE SPEAKER: I'll just say again, you 13 know, any additional information that we can get in 14 the PDF, whether there's air flow statics, the 15 specific rating conditions that were used when we're 16 going out there to test these blind would be 17 beneficial. So whether it's required or in a 18 supplemental sheet, it's fine. But if we're going to 19 do it in a supplemental sheet, maybe we should spend 20 some time going through what that specific list is for 21 each product class as well. 22 MR. AMRANE: This is Karim with AHRI. I

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 298 1 think I see this differently. I think we should give 2 the opportunity to manufacturers to provide the 3 information that they think is appropriate. 4 Whether it has what you need or not, I -- it 5 shouldn't be your issue. The issue should be the 6 manufacturer's issue. Because at the end of the day, 7 if you -- we could not test the unit, this 8 manufacturer is going to be penalized, so. 9 MR. WHITWELL: So this is Bob Whitwell from 10 Carrier. One thing that we need to add is the indoor 11 unit model number for splits. 12 MR. EISNER: Does DOE agree with that? 13 MS. BARHYDT: Yes. So I believe that the 14 way we have it set up, where for the general 15 information we say "model number," what we do for the 16 split systems is we provide an opportunity to provide 17 the indoor and the outdoor separately. 18 MR. WHITWELL: Okay. That would work. I 19 was just looking at the residential template. 20 MS. BARHYDT: Right. 21 MR. WHITWELL: And it has outdoor and 22 indoor, so.

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 299 1 MS. BARHYDT: Separate. 2 MR. WHITWELL: But that would work. And 3 earlier we talked about the -- possibly including the 4 standard indoor fan motor power, horsepower. And 5 maybe we need to include that also for the outdoor if 6 there's options for high static, you know, optional 7 outdoor motors. But only -- I guess only in the case 8 where there are options. Right? If there's no 9 options on the outdoor motor, then it could be left 10 blank. 11 MS. BARHYDT: Okay. 12 MR. EISNER: Agree? 13 MS. BARHYDT: Well, we haven't resolved the 14 motor issue but certainly -- 15 MR. WHITWELL: We should consider that 16 depending on the outcome. 17 MS. BARHYDT: Should consider that depending 18

-- 19 MR. WHITWELL: Outcome. Right. 20 MS. BARHYDT: -- on how the -- how it works 21 out. 22 MR. AMRANE: This is Karim. Bob, a question

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 300 1 for Bob -- this is for products less than 65,000. 2 Right? 3 MS. BARHYDT: No. 4 MR. WHITWELL: Well, no, I thought we were 5 talking about -- it's all one template. 6 MS. BARHYDT: There is -- 7 MR. AMRANE: Only one. Okay. All right. 8 MR. EISNER: Anything else? The usual last 9 bullet, would be yes. 10 MS. HOOTMAN: The -- this is Jill from 11 Trane. I believe DOE covers water cooled and 12 evaporative cooled. And I'm looking over my buddy. 13 So is there other stuff that they need to have up 14 there? 15 MS. BARHYDT: I think water cooled is on the 16 next slide. 17 MS. HOOTMAN: Okay. 18 MS. BARHYDT: This one's air cooled. 19 MS. HOOTMAN: All right. 20 MR. EISNER: Any objections to the last 21 bullet, the ones that are already on the slide plus 22 the indoor fan motor and possibly outdoor?

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 301 1 COURT REPORTER: Could you ask whoever's on 2 the phone to mute their phone. 3 MR. EISNER: Could you mute your phone if 4 you're online with your -- the phone unmated? 5 MS. TUCKER: It sounds like an airplane 6 crashing. 7 MR. EISNER: It sounds kind of soothing. 8 MS. TUCKER: That's all I can think about. 9 MR. EISNER: Okay. Anything else on this 10 one? No problems. 11 Gets us up to water cooled. 12 MS. BARHYDT: So AHRI directory currently 13 includes cooling capacity, EER, IEER, the high heating 14 capacity and COP, the low heating capacity and COP, 15 and the AHRI type. 16 DOE regs currently require the EER, the COP, 17 the cooling capacity, and the type of heating used by 18 the unit. 19 MR. EISNER: Same questions -- anything 20 added, anything subtracted? Okay. So everybody's 21 happy with what's on the sheet and the addition of the 22 PDF bullet, no objections?

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Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 07-01-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 302 1 Okay. 2 MS. HOOTMAN: These would have had those 3 motor options as well if you go that way. 4 MS. TUCKER: Yeah, just to be clear, I'm not 5 adding them right now just on the slides because of -- 6 MR. EISNER: She won't go to bed tonight 7 until she has. Okay. 8 MR. WHITWELL: Well, maybe there -- we might 9 maybe just need a reminder on there, right, so we 10 don't forget them later on. 11 MR. EISNER: Okay. That brings us up to 12 evaporatively cooled. 13 MS. BARHYDT: AHRI, same information. DOE 14 pretty much same information. 15 MR. EISNER: Anything that should be added 16 or subtracted? Everybody's okay with this, with the 17 usual bullet at the end? 18 Water source -- small, large, and very 19 large. And the CFR break. We can look. If you got 20 to check something, check. 21 MS. BARHYDT: No, no, that's okay. 22 MR. EISNER: Water source.

### Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 07-01-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 303 1 MS. TUCKER: Sorry. What are missing? 2 MR. AMRANE: Karim with AHRI. For water 3 source, we're not talking about the same, we're 4 talking about the EER. But there's no IEER. There's 5 -- the COP is not at 47, it's not 17. So we don't 6 have same requirement that the other products -- other 7 sources are different, it's not the same test 8 procedure, it's different test procedure. 9 So this -- those listed here, those are -- 10 do not belong to the water source. 11 MR. SACHS: Karim, is this the stuff that's 12 on the ISO standard? 13 MR. AMRANE: The IEO? No. 14 MR. SACHS: No. 15 MR. AMRANE: The IEO, there's no IEO on the 16 ISO standard. 17 MR. SACHS: I'm sorry. Is the water source 18 large -- small, large, and very large commercial 19 packaged air conditioning, what we use the ISO test 20 method for water loop and ground source units? 21 MR. CYMBALSKY: Yes. 22 MR. AMRANE: Right.

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Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 07-01-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 304 1 MR. SACHS: Thank you. 2 MS. TUCKER: And we'll just highlight them 3 all red and revisit that. 4 MR. EISNER: Okay. Anything that should be 5 added or subtracted? So everybody's okay with the 6 current DOE requirements plus the added bullet? 7 All right. Everybody's okay. Should we go 8 to the next one, variable refrigerant? 9 MS. BARHYDT: Do the water source have split 10 systems, same kind of model number issue? 11 MR. CYMBALSKY: The what? 12 MS. BARHYDT: Do the water source and the 13 evaporatively cooled have the indoor/outdoor split 14 system kind of configuration like the air cooled? 15 Bob brought up the issue of the two model 16 numbers. I just want to make sure that we've got that 17 covered for everything that might possibly have that. 18 MR. SACHS: At least two -- this is Harvey - 19 - at least two relatively large manufacturers of water 20 loop heat pumps do offer split systems, but I think 21 they're always sold with matched indoor units -- the 22 fan. It's a relatively small production volume.

### Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 07-01-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 305 1 MS. BARHYDT: Okay. 2 MR. SACHS: What was the second half? 3 MS. BARHYDT: I -- basically the 4 evaporatively cooled -- 5 6 MR. SACHS: Marshall probably has been 7 tracking that if he's -- can unmute. But there's been 8 a series of relatively small manufacturers who've gone 9 to market with evaporatively pre-cooled residential 10 split systems and who knows whose evaporator's being 11 used with them. 12 MR. FLY: And this is Mark Fly with AAON. 13 We do build evaporative cooled large condensing units, 14 which would be married to somebody's air handler, so. 15 MR. KOJAK: Do we have to keep track of the 16 water consumption on those during the test? 17 MR. FLY: There is no test standard for 18 evaporative cooled equipment right now. So I don't 19 know the answer to that question because I don't know 20 of that test standard. 21 MS. BARHYDT: Okay. 22 MS. HOOTMAN: AHRI 340/360 does not address

### Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 07-01-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 306 1 evap or water. 2 MR. EISNER: If you're on the phone, could 3 you mute your phone? 4 MS. BARHYDT: Okay. 5 MR. EISNER: Variable refrigerant. 6 MS. BARHYDT: VRFs. 7 MR. DOPPEL: Paul Doppel with Mitsubishi. 8 So the title should be variable refrigerant flow 9 multi- split air conditioners, comma, heat pumps, and 10 water source heat pumps. 11 Then the indoor units, there's also a mixed 12 grading -- ducted, non-ducted, and mixed ducted and 13 non-ducted. You can just put in mixed. Okay. And 14 the SCHE is for heat recovery systems only. 15 And then for the water source heat pumps, we 16 need a heating capacity and heating COP at 68 degrees. 17 MR. THARP: Rusty Tharp with Goodman. The 18 47/17 values for air source only. 19 MS. TUCKER: You said heating capacity and 20 sorry. 21 MR. THARP: Heating COP. 22 MS. TUCKER: Heating COP. Thank you.

### Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 07-01-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 307 1 MR. DOPPEL: Yeah. So the 47 and 17 are air 2 source. And then the other -- the last two are water 3 source. 4 MS. TUCKER: Oh. 5 MR. AMRANE: This is Karim with AHRI. I 6 guess I'm moving to the next slide, and I see no 7 product specific requirements for VRFs. But there are 8 already standards for VRFs. Right? 9 MS. BARHYDT: There's no certification 10 requirements for VRFs right now. 11 MR. AMRANE: Okay. 12 MR. DOPPEL: That goes into a -- in effect 13 in August I think it is. 14 MS. BARHYDT: You -- are the standards 15 already in effect or you're asking? 16 MR. DOPPEL: I don't remember the exact but 17 it seemed like it was August this year that it would 18 go. It was mixed. Maybe the water source was a 19 different time. And the -- I'll have to double check. 20 MS. BARHYDT: There's October 29th, 2013 for 21 greater than 135,000 BTU. 22 MR. DOPPEL: On the water source?

### Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 07-01-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 308 1 MS. BARHYDT: On water source. Less than 2 17,000 BTU was October 2012. Air cooled, fall 2010, 3 except for one that was 2008. Were there changes to 4 that that may not have been in my book? 5 MR. DOPPEL: Wait a minute. And what was 6 the date? What was the date? 7 MS. BARHYDT: I'm looking at water source, 8 air cooled, 2012. But the certification requirements - 9

- 10 MR. DOPPEL: But the standard was tied in 11 with ASHRAE 90.1. Okay. 12 COURT REPORTER: Did you want to recap that 13 for the transcript? 14 MS. BARHYDT: Sure. Actually, most of it, 15 I'd already said, but the gist of it is that the 16 standards are set forth. Most of them are already in, 17 in fact, except for a few of the water source 18 standards for VRFs but the certifications requirements 19 obviously have not kicked in for anyone and there are 20 no specific provisions for VRFs or certification in 21 the regs right now. 22 MR. DOPPEL: That -- first of all, just for

### Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 07-01-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 309 1 clarification, that first part was testing standards. 2 MS. BARHYDT: Yes. No. That was standards. 3 That was performance standards. 4 MR. WHITWELL: Yeah, so that predates the 5 test procedures. So it would have been based on the 6 waivers at the time, right, the test waivers I guess I 7 mean. 8 MR. DOPPEL: No, it was based on ASHRAE 9 90.1. Because if you look at the date, it's a 10 publication for ASHRAE for 90.1. 11 MR. WHITWELL: But I think the effective 12 date for standards was in 2010. 13 MS. BARHYDT: '10. 14 MR. WHITWELL: Yeah. 15 MR. DOPPEL: Yeah, that's what the -- that's 16 what the book says. 17 MR. WHITWELL: And the DOE just adopted 1230 18 last year. So it would have been based on the 19 alternate test procedures that were included in the 20 waivers I guess. 21 MR. DOPPEL: Which was based on 1230, but 22 the performance standards are what's in 90.1.

### Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 07-01-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 310 1 MS. BARHYDT: Okay. So we still -- if 2 everybody can walk through -- or if you could walk 3 through one more time, make sure we've got everything 4 for VRFs since we have nothing in the regs right now. 5 I want to make sure we get this right. 6 So you're saying we should collect 7 everything that's in AHRI? 8 MR. AMRANE: And you don't need the COP at 9 17. You don't need -- 10 MS. BARHYDT: I didn't think so. That's why 11 I was trying to make sure we're on the same page. 12 MR. WHITWELL: Yeah, you don't need -- 13 MR. AMRANE: You don't -- 14 MR. WHITWELL: You don't need IEER. 15 MS. BARHYDT: Yeah, I know. 16 MR. DOPPEL: And you don't need SCHE. I 17 thought you were just trying to get square what was in 18 AHRI. This is all AHRI. 19 MS. BARHYDT: Right. But -- 20 MR. AMRANE: This is Karim with AHRI. I 21 think it has to be similar to what you do for the 22 other products. It -- so it has to be EER, COP at 47,

### Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 07-01-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 311 1 cooling capacity for the water source has to be EER 2 and the COP. 3 MR. WHITWELL: But I think there is -- Bob 4 Whitwell from Carrier, I think like you would for us, 5 what system, you have to identify the indoor and 6 outdoor units that are the tested combination. Right? 7 MS. BARHYDT: Combination, yes. 8 MR. DOPPEL: No. No, that wouldn't be the 9 case. The -- what's in -- what's listed in AHRI is 10 the outdoor unit -- 11 MR. WHITWELL: No. But, Paul, DOE would 12 need to have that information -- 13 MR. DOPPEL: Yes, it would. 14 MR. WHITWELL: -- to know what to test. 15 MR. DOPPEL: Right. 16 MR. WHITWELL: Right. It's not going to be 17 - - they wouldn't publish it. 18 MR. DOPPEL: Right. But that's not on this 19 page. 20 MR. WHITWELL: No, we're -- but we're -- I 21 think we're moved onto the second page. Right? 22 MS. BARHYDT: Yeah.

### Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 07-01-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 312 1 MR. DOPPEL: We're not there yet, no. 2 MS. TUCKER: Sorry. I was just using that. 3 MR. DOPPEL: Okay. On this page, I agree. 4 MR. WHITWELL: Yeah. 5 MR. BAUMAN: Okay. So DOE should collect 6 the indoor unit -- an indication of whether it's 7 ducted, non-ducted, or mixed. 8 MR. DOPPEL: Just ducted. 9 MS. BARHYDT: Cooling capacity. 10 MR. DOPPEL: Just ducted or non-ducted. 11 MS. BARHYDT: Just ducted or non-ducted. 12 MR. CYMBALSKY: Why not mixed? 13 MS. BARHYDT: What's mixed? 14 MR. WHITWELL: Mixed is the average of -- 15 MR. DOPPEL: An average of the two. 16 MS. BARHYDT: Okay. 17 MR. WHITWELL: So it's not tested. 18 MS. BARHYDT: Cooling capacity EER. The 19 heating capacity and heating COP for air at 47. And 20 the heating capacity and COP for water at 68. 21 MR. DOPPEL: 68. 22 MS. TUCKER: So can I put that in red here

### Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 07-01-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 313 1 and -- 2 MR. AMRANE: This is Karim. I don't know if 3 we need the -- I'm not sure if we need the heating 4 capacity. I mean, I'll leave it up to you guys but 5 this is not something required for the other product. 6 MR. WHITWELL: No, it's -- 7 MR. AMRANE: The heating capacity is not 8 required. I mean, it is what it is, cooling capacity. 9 MR. DOPPEL: Just the COP. 10 MR. AMRANE: And cooling capacity, yes. 11 MR. DOPPEL: Cooling capacity and then -- 12 okay. Thanks. 13 MS. BARHYDT: You keep saying that's red and 14 then it just -- it's not always red. 15 MS. TUCKER: So what's in the light gray? 16 Can I take that and put it on there? I try so hard. 17 MR. EISNER: Okay. Everybody comfortable 18 with this list? 19 MS. BARHYDT: I'm there. 20 MR. DOPPEL: The -- underneath the indoor 21 unit or with that also has to be the -- well, I guess 22 just a separate bullet of definition of the tested --

### Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 07-01-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 314 1 the units in the tested combination. 2 MR. WHITWELL: Which would be the indoor 3 models and the outdoor models. 4 MR. DOPPEL: Right. 5 MR. WHITWELL: Right. Because there could 6 be multiple, more than one, outdoor unit that goes 7 together for the system as well as up to twelve indoor 8 units that go together for the system. 9 And then, Paul, what about the compressor 10 speed, operating speed, they need to have that -- 11 MR. THARP: PDF. 12 MR. DOPPEL: I think maybe you and I should 13 talk about how we want to provide that because that's 14 going to be confidential information. 15 MR. WHITWELL: Well, I mean, in all of that 16 there is a lot of confidential information that we're 17 talking about here. 18 MR. DOPPEL: Well, the other thing, too, is 19 that the test lab would probably need some sort of a 20 testing box or -- 21 MS. BARHYDT: Okay. So hold on. Bob just 22 made a statement. I want to make sure we're all clear

### Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 07-01-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 315 1 on it, that things like capacity, EER, COP, those 2 would all generally be public information. Right? 3 MR. WHITWELL: Uh-huh. Right. 4 understand. 5 MS. BARHYDT: Okay. 6 MR. THARP: And let's also remember that VRF 7 is one of the ones where manufacturers are there a 8 hundred percent of the time. 9 MR. WHITWELL: I know, but I think we would 10 want to make sure that when the manufacturer is there 11 and operating the equipment, it's operated at the 12 speed that it's supposed to operate at for the 13 capacity and efficiency. 14 MR. DOPPEL: So I -- under -- what else 15 should be provided, DOE, maybe put equipment and 16 controls to operate the VRF system. 17 MR. WHITWELL: That -- yeah, right. 18 MS. BARHYDT: I think -- 19 MR. WHITWELL: Which is not part of the 20 submission. 21 MS. BARHYDT: -- I had some information in 22 that rulemaking where we talked about some of the

### Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 07-01-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 316 1 information we would want manufacturers to provide to 2 us. So we can go back to that rulemaking and look at 3 that as well. 4 MR. WHITWELL: From May last year. 5 MS. BARHYDT: Huh? 6 MR. WHITWELL: The May -- 7 MS. BARHYDT: Yeah. 8 MR. DOPPEL: Instead of equipment put 9 "controller." 10 MR. EISNER: Is this captured? 11 MS. BARHYDT: So it's 6:00 o'clock. And I 12 believe we have to clear the room, so. 13 MR. EISNER: So are we done with -- are we 14 done with this? 15 MS. BARHYDT: So is there anything else on 16 VRFs for right now? And then we'll just pick up with 17 the list tomorrow morning. 18 MR. EISNER: Everybody okay with this for 19 VRF with the usual last bullet on PDFs? 20 MS. BARHYDT: I think DOE needs to go back 21 and look at that rulemaking as well. So I don't think 22 VRFs are quite polished up.

### Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 07-01-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 317 1 MR. EISNER: Yeah, okay. 2 MR. DOPPEL: Can this be sent out to us 3 tonight? Is it impossible? 4 MS. BARHYDT: If we post it on SharePoint, 5 will that work? 6 MR. DOPPEL: Yeah, posting it on SharePoint 7 is good. 8 MS. BARHYDT: Okay. 9 (Whereupon, at 5:59 p.m., the 10 Appliance Standards and Rulemaking 11 Federal Advisory Committee Meeting was 12 adjourned.) 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22Capital Reporting Company Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 07-01-2013

1 CERTIFICATE OF COURT REPORTER 2 3 I, CHRISTINE ALLEN, the Court Reporter before 4 whom the foregoing proceeding was taken, do hereby 5 certify that the proceeding was recorded by me; that 6 the proceeding was thereafter reduced to typewriting 7 under my direction; that said transcript is a true and 8 accurate record of the proceeding; that I am neither 9 related to nor employed by any of the parties to this 10 proceeding; and, further, that I have no financial 11 interest in this proceeding. 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 

# 8/3011.0\3

# QjA~JjJl&.- Date CHRISTINE . L· Digital Court Reporter

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitaIReportingCompany.com © 2013 318Capital Reporting Company. Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 07-01-2013

1 CERTIFICATE OF TRANSCRIPTION 2 3 I, EVE JEMISON, hereby certify that I am not the Court 4 Reporter who reported the following proceeding and 5 that I have typed the transcript of this proceeding 6 using the Court Reporter's notes and recordings. The 7 foregoing/attached transcript is a true, correct and 8 complete transcription of said proceeding. 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 Date

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitaIReportingCompany.com © 2013 319Capital Reporting Company Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 07-01-2013

1 2 CERTIFICATE OF TRANSCRIPTI O N 3 4 I, JANET RICE, hereby certify that I am not the Court 5 Reporter who reported the following proceeding and 6 that I have typed the transcript of this proceeding 7 using the Court Reporter's notes and recordings. The 8 foregoing/attached transcript is a true, correct and 9 complete transcription of said proceeding. 10 11 1 2 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 

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### ~ Date

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 320Capital Reporting Company Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 07-01-2013

1 CERTIFICATE OF TRANSCRIPTION 2 3 I, MARY YOUNG, hereby certify that I am not the Court 4 Reporter who reported the following proceeding and 5 that I have typed the transcript of this proceeding 6 using the Court Reporter's notes and recordings. The 7 foregoing/attached transcript is a true, correct and 8 complete transcription of said proceeding. 9 10 1 1 1 2 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 Date Transcriptionist

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 321Capital Reporting Company Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 07-01-2013

1 CERTIFICATE OF TRANSCRIPTION 2 3 I, WENDY SARDINA, hereby certify that I am not the 4 Court Reporter who reported the following proceeding 5 and that I have typed the transcript of this 6 proceeding using the Court Reporter's notes and 7 recordings. The foregoing/attached transcript is a 8 true, correct and complete transcription of said 9 proceeding. 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22

## S/~lCP1~

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitaIReportingCompany.com © 2013 322Capital Reporting Company Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 07-01-2013

1 CERTIFICATE OF TRANSCRIPTION 2 3 I, SARAH VEACH, hereby certify that I am not the Court 4 Reporter who reported the following proceeding and 5 that I have typed the transcript of this proceeding 6 using the Court Reporter's notes and recordings. The 7 foregoing/attached transcript is a true, correct and 8 complete transcription of said proceeding. 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22

## ~lY-t 

# LQJ\3 Date SARAH VEACH Transcriptionist

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitaIReportingCompany.com © 2013 323Capital Reporting Company

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 $ $10 158:4 $20 158:4 0 05 141:8,9 168:12,13 07 141:21 08 164:17 1 1 1:15 52:1 199:3 202:18 203:3,6,11 10 4:10 48:8 113:11 247:7 257:10 259:11 309:13 100 36:17 186:21 187:3 257:21 1000 1:11 100-gallon 256:10 100-ton 91:11 108 185:11 115 171:6 12 152:19 202:15 256:8 120 172:22 173:1,2 1200 283:22 284:14 1230 309:17,21 13 122:20 139:6 134A269:16 135,000 307:21 14 68:22 70:7 166:3 169:14 271:19 140 249:5 255:3,4,7 258:16,22 259:14,15 265:9 15 274:7 275:2 15.0 274:16 16 152:19 17 289:2 303:5 307:1 310:9 17,000 308:2 175,000 13:20 18 43:21 177:21 256:9 19 77:12 2 2 37:6 99:18,21 100:14 102:6 139:17 202:15 20 113:3 114:8,10 135:16 139:16 163:17 251:14 200,000 13:19 2005 20:20 2007 141:18 2008 308:3 2010 308:2 309:12 2012 308:2,8 2013 1:15 307:20 2015 295:5 20-25 263:12 20585 1:13 20s 275:11 20x30s 163:18 210/240 164:15 212 245:15 230 172:22 173:8 24 113:3

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