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 DEPARTMENT OF ENERGY

 APPLIANCE STANDARDS AND RULEMAKING

 FEDERAL ADVISORY COMMITTEE MEETING

 Department of Energy

 1000 Independence Avenue, SW

 Forrestal Building

 Washington, D.C. 20585

 Monday, July 1, 2013

Reported by: Christine Allen, RPR/CSR,

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1 A P P E A R A N C E S

2 Neil Eisner, Facilitator

3 DOE and ASRAC Representatives:

4 John Cymbalsky, ASRAC Designated Federal Officer,

 Supervisory Operations Research Analyst,

5 U.S. Department of Energy

6 Laura Barhydt, U.S. Department of Energy

7 Ashley Armstrong, U.S. Department of Energy

8 Other Selected Members:

9 Karim Amrane, ACHRI

10 Timothy Ballo, Earth Justice

11 Jeff Bauman, National Refrigeration & Air-

 Conditioning

12

 John Bean, Schneider Electric

13

 Rodney Beever, United Cool Air

14

 Mary Dane, Traulsen

15

 Paul Doppel, Mitsubishi Electric U.S., Inc.

16

 Mark Fly, AAON

17

 Geoffrey Halley, SJI Consultants, Inc.

18

 John Hurst, Lennox International, Inc.

19

 Charles Hon, True Manufacturing

20

 Jill Hootman, Trane

21

 Marshall Hunt, Pacific Gas and Electric Company

22

 Diane Jakobs, Rheem
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1 A P P E A R A N C E S (Continued)

2 Other Selected Members (Cont'd):

3 Tom Johnson, Daikin McQuay

4 Michael Kojak, Underwriters Laboratories, LLC

5 Karen Meyers, Rheem Manufacturing Co.

6 Peter Molvie, Cleaver-Brooks Product Development

7 Frank Myers, PVI Industries

8 Jeff Kleiss, Lochinvar, LLC

9 Harvey Sachs, American Council for an Energy-

 Efficient Economy

10

 Ronald Shebik, Hussmann Corporation

11

 Louis Starr, Northwest Energy Efficiency Alliance

12

 Frank Stanonik, ACHRI

13

 Russell Tharp, Goodman Manufacturing

14

 Robert Whitwell, Carrier

15

 Wes Wostal, Climate Master

16

 Navigant:

17

 Aris Maranton

18

 Michael Rivest

19

 Collin Weber

20

 Laura Degitsz

21

 Corey Tucker

22
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1 P R O C E E D I N G S

2 MR. EISNER: First of all, for all of you

3 from out of town, welcome to Washington in the summer.

4 I'm sure you're all enjoying it.

5 We've had a lot happen since the last

6 meeting, including an ASRAC meeting, so I asked John

7 if he wanted to start off, and talk a little bit about

8 what we sent him, and what they worked out there.

9 MR. CYMBALSKY: Okay. Thanks, Neil.

10 MR. SACHS: Could we take 10 seconds just to

11 welcome Ashley back?

12 MR. EISNER: We could.

13 MS. ARMSTRONG: I'm here.

14 MR. EISNER: Did you want to say a toast?

15 MR. SACHS: To Ashley.

16 MR. EISNER: Welcome back, Ashley.

17 MS. ARMSTRONG: Thank you.

18 MR. EISNER: I'm sorry. I should have

19 remembered that.

20 MS. ARMSTRONG: Thank you.

21 MR. CYMBALSKY: And by the way, we have a

22 new court reporter, or a --
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1 MS. ARMSTRONG: We have a new version.

2 MR. CYMBALSKY: -- different court reporter

3 today, Christine Allen.

4 MR. EISNER: And I'm going to tell you to do

5 what I just forgot to do, which is remember to turn

6 your mikes on, and remember your names, and repeat

7 your names, until she can at least get used to you.

8 And now, we're back here, John.

9 MR. CYMBALSKY: Okay. Thank you, yes, and

10 welcome back, Ashley. She took all of about three or

11 four days off, before you've probably seen a few test

12 procedures fly out the door in the last couple of

13 days, so we can thank her for that. Also, I wanted to

14 update you on the AEDM portion of what we put forward

15 to ASRAC last Thursday.

16 So, the report that we sent forward with the

17 AEDM recommendations was approved by ASRAC. So, DOE

18 will now turn that into a Notice of Proposed

19 Rulemaking in the coming weeks or months, however long

20 it takes, hopefully, not that long.

21 You know, I'm loathe to promise anyone a

22 date in this job.
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1 Yeah, I'm not.

2 Also, other exciting news for the program, I

3 think next -- the last week, last Tuesday, you

4 probably heard or read about President Obama's speech

5 regarding climate initiatives. And he specifically

6 mentioned the Appliance Standards Program as one that

7 he thinks his executive powers can go a long way

8 towards meeting some goals. So, it's good for the

9 program. I think, personally, good for us to you know

10 get the recognition of what we do here, which is save

11 a lot of energy and a lot of carbon.

12 So, we'll be on the hook for some big

13 savings over the next few years, so look for some more

14 rules coming out of our office. And so, I just want

15 to recognize everybody's hard work. I know we've been

16 through, what, seven or so meetings now, and I think

17 we should all be proud of ourselves for coming up with

18 at least a portion of what we've set out to do towards

19 the end of the summer. I think it was a good bit of

20 work to get to the AEDM Agreement, and I personally,

21 and the program, thanks everyone for working so hard

22 on getting that agreement done.
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1 And like I said, we'll have an NOPR out

2 shortly on the subject. Thank you.

3 MR. EISNER: We've also had a special

4 meeting last Friday. Do you want to report anything

5 from that meeting? Did everything get done that the

6 group wanted?

7 MS. BARHYDT: So, we met with the Commercial

8 Refrigeration equipment manufacturers, and heard some

9 of the issues that they have; questions, in

10 particular, about grouping models and testing. And so

11 basically what we did, it was an informational session

12 for the Department to hear about some of their

13 concerns. And as we go through the material today,

14 you'll be seeing all of the information that we

15 gathered during that session.

16 MR. EISNER: Does anybody have any questions

17 or comments?

18 Are you ready to dig in on the next issue?

19 MR. AMRANE: Are there copies of this

20 presentation?

21 MS. ARMSTRONG: It's different, I think.

22 MR. EISNER: This is the one we were working
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1 at the last meeting, but it's been changed --

2 MS. ARMSTRONG: It's been revised.

3 MR. EISNER: -- to reflect what Laura was

4 just talking about?

5 MS. ARMSTRONG: Yes.

6 MR. EISNER: Is it possible --

7 MS. BARHYDT: The one that has the notes

8 from CRE. Well --

9 MS. ARMSTRONG: This is the CRE.

10 MS. BARHYDT: -- I'm not positive if it's

11 posted on the SharePoint or not; I'd have to double

12 check which version was up.

13 MR. SACHS: I have an extra copy of the 6-7.

14 If this thing changed, I can't help.

15 MR. EISNER: All right, they are going to

16 make copies. Is everybody comfortable with starting

17 while the copies are being made?

18 MR. SACHS: Sure.

19 MR. EISNER: Good. How do you want to start

20 off? Go back to the last slide?

21 MS. BARHYDT: Well, actually, let's start at

22 the beginning.
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1 MR. EISNER: Okay.

2 MR. SACHS: A little refresher.

3 MS. BARHYDT: We went three weeks this time,

4 so people may have forgotten.

5 MR. EISNER: Can people see this slide, or

6 should I -- am I in the way?

7 MS. BARHYDT: So, three weeks ago when we

8 met, we went over basic model definitions for each of

9 the different types of products, and everybody gave

10 input on how they thought that the basic model

11 definition should be clarified for their specific

12 products. So, this is the definition we came up with

13 for commercial warm air furnaces. Are there any other

14 questions or comments about the warm air furnace

15 definition? I'll give you all a second to read it.

16 Yep.

17 MR. EISNER: Any questions?

18 MR. AMRANE: Yes, Karim Amrane.

19 I guess I have a question, more for the

20 manufacturers in the room, but would it make sense,

21 also, here to exclude some of the features that exist

22 on the AC side, because they are part of the same
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1 product, or is it already taken care of with the other

2 definition?

3 MS. MYERS: This is Karen Myers with Rheem,

4 and I think I agree with Karim's suggestion because

5 often, these commercial warm air furnaces are part of

6 a packaged unit. So, maybe I just have a question

7 that affects energy efficiency. If it's part of a

8 packaged unit, are you just talking about the AFUE

9 portion of it?

10 MS. ARMSTRONG: This is Ashley from DOE.

11 Those factors would not affect AFUE. Or thermal,

12 yeah; it's thermal and combustion.

13 MS. MYERS: Okay.

14 MS. ARMSTRONG: Yeah.

15 MR. EISNER: Do you have a question, Jill?

16 MS. HOOTMAN: No. I'm just -- thermal

17 efficiency; that is correct.

18 MR. EISNER: Is there a reason you're not

19 sitting at the table?

20 MS. HOOTMAN: Well, they said there weren't

21 any chairs.

22 MS. ARMSTRONG: Here, you are, grab a chair,
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1 and scoot on in.

2 COURT REPORTER: And identify yourself

3 please.

4 MS. HOOTMAN: Jill Hootman, Trane.

5 COURT REPORTER: I can't hear you. You're

6 not on the record.

7 MR. EISNER: Jill Hootman.

8 COURT REPORTER: Thank you.

9 MR. EISNER: Trane.

10 MS. ARMSTRONG: Sorry, I was the wildcard

11 that accidently showed up today and stole your chair.

12 MS. HOOTMAN: You are a wildcard. We know

13 that.

14 MR. CYMBALSKY: Hey Tim, do you want to come

15 up too, since --

16 MR. BALLO: If there's room, but if not --

17 MS. ARMSTRONG: Yeah, there's room.

18 MR. CYMBALSKY: Okay.

19 MS. ARMSTRONG: We can fit you on that side.

20 MR. CYMBALSKY: Plenty of room.

21 MS. ARMSTRONG: Come on up, up here.

22 Thanks.
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1 MR. EISNER: Okay, anything more on this

2 definition discussion? No?

3 MS. BARHYDT: So, after those questions, is

4 everybody okay with this definition?

5 Okay.

6 MS. MYERS: I just -- this is --

7 MS. BARHYDT: Yep.

8 MS. MYERS: -- Karen Meyers with Rheem. I

9 have one more question: On a dual fuel heat pump,

10 would that fall under this definition?

11 MS. ARMSTRONG: This is Ashley from DOE.

12 One that has a back-up furnace?

13 MS. MYERS: Yes.

14 MS. ARMSTRONG: Yeah. The furnace part

15 would.

16 MS. MYERS: Yeah, it is part, but you said

17 it would rise, so the static wouldn't have a big --

18 MS. ARMSTRONG: Correct.

19 MS. MYERS: -- effect --

20 MS. ARMSTRONG: Correct. It's all set.

21 MS. MYERS: Okay.

22 MS. ARMSTRONG: You're all set. It's
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1 standardized in the test procedure.

2 MS. BARHYDT: Okay, the same thing for

3 commercial packaged boilers; this was the definition

4 of the basic model that we had come up with last time.

5 Any questions or comments?

6 Is everybody okay with this definition?

7 MR. EISNER: No problems. Harvey?

8 MR. SACHS: The devil's in the details, and

9 as I read this, physical characteristics and

10 functional characteristics could mean, or not mean,

11 the same fuel input.

12 MS. BARHYDT: Okay. So, it says, "Having

13 the same primary energy source." That's not what

14 you're referring to?

15 MR. SACHS: The same primary energy source,

16 to me, is gas versus fuel -- natural gas versus fuel

17 oil. But, physical and functional characteristics, a

18 functional characteristic might be taken as condensing

19 versus non-condensing, or it might be taken as 200,000

20 BTU per hour versus 175,000 BTU per hour. And I'm not

21 -- there is to me, an ambiguity here, and I'm just

22 asking (a) for an explanation, or (b) if everybody
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1 else understands it the same way.

2 MR. MYERS: This is Frank Myers with PVI.

3 Harvey, I think with the physical characteristics, if

4 you had a condensing versus non-condensing, that would

5 be a physical characteristic.

6 MR. SACHS: Absolutely.

7 MS. ARMSTRONG: Mike Fitzer?

8 MR. FITZER: Thanks, Frank. And I think we

9 all agree on that. The question is whether two

10 different fuel input rates is the same physical and

11 functional characteristics or not. Is a bigger burner

12 conceivably part of the same basic model? I don't

13 know the answer, I'm asking so we get clarification.

14 MS. ARMSTRONG: Okay. Go ahead you can go

15 first.

16 MS. JAKOBS: I would interpret it that it

17 would be the same --

18 MR. EISNER: Name? She needs your name.

19 MS. JAKOBS: Oh, Diane Jakobs. We already

20 talked.

21 But, just so, a basic model would be the

22 same, so it would be like a gas furnace at a certain
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1 capacity, and the capacity would be determined by

2 probably, the number of burners and heat exchanger

3 cells. And that's how I would interpret that.

4 MR. SACHS: (Inaudible).

5 MS. ARMSTRONG: It doesn't have to be.

6 MR. SACHS: No, it's not.

7 MS. JAKOBS: No. If it's --

8 MS. ARMSTRONG: So, it's --

9 MS. JAKOBS: Oh, go ahead.

10 MS. ARMSTRONG: This is Ashley. The way I

11 read this, it doesn't have to be. It can be. In

12 other words, you're right. This definition provides

13 flexibility. And if somebody wanted to group you know

14 a couple of discreet capacities at a nominal capacity,

15 per say, they could do it. This does allow that.

16 MR. CYMBALSKY: And rate at the lower

17 efficiency.

18 MS. ARMSTRONG: And they would rate them all

19 at the same rating, which would be the lowest. In

20 theory, it's the same, though, I mean, they --

21 MR. SACHS: Wait, if -- Harvey Sachs again.

22 Now, I'm confused. I thought I was okay. No, I
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1 didn't. John, if I'm rating it the lowest capacity --

2 I'm sorry. I heard capacity. We're saying

3 "efficiency." So, that would generally, correspond to

4 the highest capacity and the most adverse ratio of

5 heat exchanger area, to flame.

6 MR. CYMBALSKY: Frank?

7 MR. STANONIK: Frank Stanonik, AHRI. I

8 would suggest, let's not -- let's put this into

9 context. The working group put together some very

10 good recommendations for AEDM's, which we all hope

11 will get finalized. And if that gets finalized, I

12 would say, Harvey, your concern is really not really

13 significant because what is going to happen, at least

14 in the case of commercial boilers, is what has been

15 the practice only for about 50 years, which is where

16 they will have a family of models.

17 And essentially, unless something really

18 changes, most AEDMs will look like some form of

19 interpolation or extrapolation. It will be very

20 straightforward. So, what I'm saying is, they won't

21 worry as much about whether it's a basic model, as

22 much as getting -- taking care of the family.
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1 MR. SACHS: Harvey Sachs. Thanks, Frank.

2 And I'm still reminded of trust but verify.

3 MR. EISNER: Any more comments? Is

4 everybody comfortable -- except for Harvey?

5 Okay, we should go onto the next one.

6 MS. BARHYDT: Okay, same routine: commercial

7 water heaters.

8 Any concerns, any questions?

9 MR. EISNER: Everybody's comfortable with

10 this one? Okay.

11 MS. BARHYDT: Okay, commercial refrigeration

12 equipment. What we have is, a basic model means, "All

13 units of commercial refrigeration equipment

14 manufactured by one manufacturer, having the same

15 primary energy source and that have essentially

16 identical electrical, physical, and functional

17 characteristics that affect energy consumption."

18 The Department is suggesting that the

19 options and features -- and there's going to be a list

20 -- are being considered for differential treatment

21 through test procedure treatment, and/or enforcement

22 guidance, rather than by putting it into the actual
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1 basic model definition. And so, are there any actual

2 -- well, there's nothing below that.

3 MS. ARMSTRONG: Yeah, we'll get to them.

4 MS. BARHYDT: Okay.

5 MS. ARMSTRONG: Let's go through the whole

6 list.

7 MS. BARHYDT: Okay. So, we'll go through

8 them one at a time.

9 MS. ARMSTRONG: Yeah.

10 MS. BARHYDT: That's why you're here.

11 MS. ARMSTRONG: That is why I'm here.

12 So, I'm going to go through each of these.

13 This is more or less the overview of what we talked

14 about on Friday for the ten minutes I was at the

15 meeting, and everybody else was at the meeting for the

16 whole time. But, we're going to come to some type of

17 general discussion as to -- or general, I guess,

18 consensus as to how these should be treated here.

19 So, for customer display -- and finally it's

20 - - the description we came up with was that some

21 customers may wish to add additional exterior signage.

22 It's outside the body of the refrigerator; it's used
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1 for advertising purposes, and it's not used directly

2 to illuminate the products that the CRE is holding.

3 So, for this one, I think DOE's position

4 here is that this is a test procedure issue. In other

5 words, we will be considering either guidance through

6 the test procedure, or (inaudible) to make it clear

7 that external signage is not used for product

8 illumination, and should not be illuminated during

9 testing. Therefore, it wouldn't show up as a

10 differential in the DOE reading.

11 MR. HON: Charlie Hon, True Manufacturing.

12 Would that also include the standard stuff that's

13 built into the product every time? The headers across

14 the glass door refrigerators?

15 MS. ARMSTRONG: None of that lighting is

16 used. I mean, the headers, none of it is used for

17 product illumination. It's purely signage.

18 MR. HON: In most circumstances, that's a

19 true statement, yes. But they're integral to the

20 machinery; they're built in permanently.

21 MS. ARMSTRONG: But they would be integral,

22 so I don't think we were -- if they're integrated into
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1 the machine, I don't think that's what we were

2 considering.

3 MR. HON: That's why I'm asking the

4 question.

5 MS. ARMSTRONG: They would be illuminated

6 during tests. These would have to be outside the body

7 of the cabinet, external.

8 MR. HON: Charlie Hon again. This -- a lot

9 of these are external to the cabinet. They are

10 permanently mounted on the front of the cabinet. They

11 could be removed from the cabinet without it affecting

12 any other function, but our standard product has been

13 under review since day one.

14 MS. ARMSTRONG: Okay. They're included.

15 MR. HON: So, I just want to clear that up,

16 because there are add-ons that other people will try

17 and -- additional add-ons on top, or even go as far as

18 adding video displays. And I understand that one

19 completely because they were not even thought about

20 when the regulations were passed in 2005.

21 MS. ARMSTRONG: Okay.

22 MR. HON: But they consume a lot of power.
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1 MS. ARMSTRONG: Okay.

2 MR. EISNER: Comments or questions on the

3 first one?

4 MR. SHEBIK: Ron Shebik with Hussmann. Just

5 one question to clarify; so, with the example that

6 Charlie was explaining where you have, I call it a

7 sign panel, it's in front of the case above the

8 refrigerated area. That would be part of the test, or

9 would not be part of the test? As opposed to --

10 MS. ARMSTRONG: It would be.

11 MR. SHEBIK: -- the lighting that's on the

12 side?

13 Would be? Okay. But lighting that's on the

14 side of the case, or additional lighting that's

15 specifically customer-driven would not be part of the

16 test, because it's not integral.

17 MS. ARMSTRONG: So, it's not location of the

18 lighting. Front versus side, that's the

19 distinguishing factor here. It's whether it's

20 additional exterior signage, completely separate from

21 the body that's added for advertising purposes, not

22 for product illumination at the request of, I guess,
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1 your individual customers.

2 MR. SHEBIK: Okay.

3 MS. ARMSTRONG: So, somebody puts their like

4 name on the side of the cabinet, and it's integrated

5 into the cabinet. Just because it's on the side

6 doesn't mean it wouldn't be counted.

7 MR. SHEBIK: Right.

8 MR. HON: So, this is Charlie Hon, again.

9 MS. ARMSTRONG: We can refine this.

10 MR. SHEBIK: Yeah.

11 MS. ARMSTRONG: I mean, you guys can --

12 MR. SHEBIK: Right.

13 MS. ARMSTRONG: -- suggest language to

14 refine this that shows how to differentiate these two.

15 MR. HON: This is getting into --

16 MR. SHEBIK: It's a minor point, but --

17 MR. HON: It is a major point, if we get

18 into certain consumption.

19 MR. SHEBIK: Well, I know where you're

20 coming from, so go ahead.

21 MR. HON: Yeah.

22 MS. ARMSTRONG: Um-hmm.
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1 MR. HON: Okay, we -- Charlie Hon. We have

2 a customer switch -- asked for additional lighting to

3 be put on top of the cabinet as basically, a crown on

4 top of the cabinet, which can have a very large amount

5 of illumination into it. We also have a customer

6 switch. We'll request a plug, so they can plug into

7 the unit, and tap off the main power cord. Or, such

8 things as a video display, which is put on top of the

9 unit and screwed on top of the cabinet to you know

10 give you a full -- long commercials, effectively,

11 playing over and over again.

12 I'm just trying to find out where the cutoff

13 point on this combination is, because we make cabinets

14 with lights above the door, lights on the sides, all

15 of which have been under regulation for years, and

16 we're running into more and more add-on lights.

17 MS. ARMSTRONG: So, can you suggest some

18 language that would distinguish add-on versus those --

19 MR. HON: That's the problem is that they're

20 - - I don't know how to distinguish them, because when

21 they're customer driven into the factory, they become

22 integral to the product. We install them as part of
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1 the product build.

2 MR. SHEBIK: Ron Shebik of Hussmann.

3 Charlie, if the sign -- I mean, forget about the extra

4 stuff.

5 MR. HON: Right.

6 MR. SHEBIK: You look at the standard sign

7 panel, which is kind of the length between the two

8 options. If the sign panel -- you know what I'm

9 talking about on a GDM case -- is excluded, because

10 it's not integral to lighting the product, would that

11 solve the problem?

12 MR. HON: I don't know how that cannot be

13 integral to the product that's on every case that goes

14 out that way.

15 The problems come with these continual add16 ons. How far do you go? Because we make cases with

17 lights above the door, you go down to Dunkin'

18 Doughnuts, you'll see some of them. And we also make

19 a similar case with lights down the side, where we put

20 an illuminated side panel on each side of the unit,

21 along with over the door. And those have always been

22 listed. We have them in our list of products in
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1 California. And it will be on the DOE list.

2 But then, you get into others where they

3 start going up with -- eventually, you come to a point

4 where, where do we draw the line, because we just keep

5 adding, and adding, and adding, and that's just the

6 nature of marketing. But when does it cross the line

7 to be removed from the list versus standard product,

8 which is customer driven?

9 MR. SACHS: This is Harvey Sachs again. And

10 there's probably no one more naive about these

11 products than I am in the room. But it seems to me,

12 from the reasons for this entire discussion, if it's

13 inside the case, it not only has -- that illumination

14 not only has its own power, but the parasitic on the

15 refrigeration side. If it's outside the case, it's a

16 different beast. So, I'm wondering if the guidance

17 might be that if it's inside the refrigerated space,

18 it is to be on during the test cycle.

19 If it's outside the refrigerated cabinet, it

20 is exempt. Now, I'm just offering that as a straw man

21 from a naposition.

22 MR. BAUMAN: This is Jeff Bauman from
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1 National. I'll bring one point in. I think I agree

2 with Charlie in that I think the tough point here is

3 going to be to define what is integral to the cabinet

4 versus not integral. I would think for signage, you

5 would want it, from your perspective to be considered

6 because that lighting -- you want them to use

7 efficient lighting as part of that product, too.

8 LED lighting, or things that, you know, we

9 come across that if you didn't have any kind of

10 standards or regulations on that part of it that's an

11 integral part of the cabinet, you could tend to get

12 less efficient than you need to be on it. So, I think

13 it might help drive that type of innovation of things,

14 again, if it's an integral part of the cabinet. To

15 me, that's the tough part for you guys. And as

16 Charlie is saying, is defining where the integral part

17 of the cabinet is versus non-integral.

18 Another whole part that I'm not sure -- Ron,

19 you're more familiar with -- is I know one of the

20 items that's been discussed also is like dry good

21 showing for open-type cases with lighting. Is, that -

22 - and maybe you can talk that a little bit better, how
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1 that may or may not tie in with this.

2 MALE VOICE: You can make it part of a

3 standby and off power.

4 MR. SHEBIK: This is Ron Shebik of Hussmann.

5 I think the dry goods is going to be -- is a separate

6 discussion, but what I was going to suggest to

7 Charlie, what if the wording was such that external

8 lighting in addition to the manufacture sign panel?

9 Because looking at your cases in general, you know you

10 have a standard sign panel that could be applied to

11 any different customer. Would that wording make it

12 more- clear?

13 MR. HON: Charlie Hon, again. The problem

14 is, Ron, with different customers requiring different

15 power strips behind the light panel

16 MR. SHEBIK: Okay.

17 MR. HON: We have some customers who are now

18 that they've discovered how wonderful LEDs are -- they

19 can put more behind a light panel and actually go

20 negative on power, because they're putting so many

21 behind the light panel that it really looks really,

22 really nice. But instead of reducing the total power
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1 consumption with the same wattage of light coming out,

2 they're going as high as doubling the power

3 consumption by adding triple the lighting.

4 So, I don't -- this is why I'm getting

5 concerned about this whole -- this is just a -- I

6 don't know how to explain what's going to happen here,

7 if we don't have a really, really, really clear

8 definition of this product.

9 MR. SACHS: Harvey Sachs. Charlie, just for

10 clarification, they are doubling the unit's total

11 energy consumption, or lighting consumption?

12 MR. HON: Charlie Hon. They will double the

13 wattage of the lighting illumination, which actually

14 goes negative on the power consumption by doubling the

15 wattage, even though, it's a more efficient system,

16 you're putting more light out, but you're also

17 consuming total power at a higher level.

18 MS. BARHYDT: Again, do you have any

19 recommendation about how to draw that line? You know

20 these products better.

21 MR. HON: Charlie Hon. The problem is is

22 everything we define then becomes a loophole, because
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1 if they say all of it must be through the same power

2 cord, all we have to do is upgrade the power cord and

3 the amperage rating on the unit, to allow for a

4 greater draw, and we can put all kinds of things on

5 there. We could put a 55-inch T.V. set across the top

6 of it, and still pass, because we don't have it turned

7 on. That's what I'm trying to say, is that I don't

8 know how to define this because if it's integral to

9 the product, it is going to be a major -- it's always

10 going to draw power, almost always, unless it's on

11 some sort of a shutdown circuit.

12 If we do not do that, we get into really

13 fuzzy questions: "How do you power them?" Again, we

14 can circumvent the law or the regulations very easily,

15 all by the way we wire things. All we'd have to do is

16 change the amp rating on the plug, and away we go. We

17 also don't want to get into an area where we've been

18 before because what would be considered integral

19 lighting, there are different levels of integral

20 lighting on a single unit. We have built them for

21 years, and years, and years, and they were all under

22 the exact California regulations under existing
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1 regulations. And we've always kept them well within

2 the bounds of the regulations.

3 But where do we cut the line? I'm concerned

4 because I don't understand how to -- I do not know how

5 to write a regulation, or a proposal that says a, b,

6 c, d, are okay, e, f, g, h, are not okay, because

7 every customer has a different wish list.

8 MR. EISNER: Could we go back to the prior

9 slide, and see the basic --

10 MS. BARHYDT: Um-hmm.

11 MR. EISNER: -- definition again? I mean,

12 aren't we talking about the purpose of the equipment?

13 If I have an electrical cord coming out to

14 run the piece of equipment that you're building to

15 refrigerate something, or to cool something, that's

16 the purpose of the equipment. If the customer says,

17 you know, "It would look pretty in my store if the

18 power cord had little light diodes on it, and

19 everybody could see it winding through the room."

20 That has nothing to do with the purpose of the

21 equipment, so I'm not sure why this group should be

22 figuring out how we can make this more energy-
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1 efficient, when the customer wants to add little

2 lights to make it look pretty, as opposed to cool.

3 MR. KOJAK: This is Mike Kojak with UL.

4 Couldn't we put like you know like a basic -- the

5 basic case that you make has x amount of lights in it,

6 and then make that the threshold, so anything that the

7 customer wants above that is exempt from this, because

8 you know that's all add-on things from your basic

9 model, or the model that you're testing with the

10 lights that you normally put on it?

11 MS. BARHYDT: So, what DOE is proposing to

12 do on all of these is to deal with it through either

13 enforcement guidance or through test procedure, the

14 full notice and comment test procedure process. And

15 so, I mean, this sounds to me like something that we

16 really need more than sitting around the table

17 discussing for a little while. And so, I mean, the

18 Department is willing to commit to an enforcement

19 policy that we would not be pursuing a fully-loaded20 out piece of commercial refrigeration equipment, with

21 all of the bells and whistles, and everything that

22 somebody might possibly want to add-on in the short
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1 term, until the line is clear.

2 Would that work?

3 MR. HON: Charlie Hon. That's very

4 reasonable. I thank you for that, because I don't

5 want to be in the middle of one of these where we're

6 in the middle of it, or we're pursuing someone else's

7 failures for the same reasons.

8 MS. BARHYDT: Yeah.

9 MR. HON: I don't want to get into anything

10 like that, and I think that there are some

11 definitions, which when we get into the definition, if

12 we go to adding and adding and adding, we're including

13 new base models. But the problem is the test

14 procedure. When do they get turned on, and when do

15 they get turned off?

16 MS. BARHYDT: Right

17 MR. HON: Because if --

18 MS. BARHYDT: And we agree that needs to be

19 clear.

20 MR. HON: -- if they were all included, then

21 everything fits just fine because it falls into the

22 base model concept. Because every base model, because
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1 it would have more features therefore, not identical

2 electrical would require more or different

3 information. But until that's clear, I don't want to

4 be put in a corner like that.

5 MS. BARHYDT: Okay.

6 MR. STARR: Louis Starr with NEEA. You

7 know, perhaps one way is a lighting power density,

8 similar to what they do in codes, but maybe based upon

9 the volume of the refrigeration cases. So, you would

10 have a certain amount of allowance that would set the

11 base line of what the allowable power allowance would

12 be for lighting. And then, that makes it so

13 everybody's equal in that amount of signage. It also

14 will restrict the amount because once you do that

15 there's only so much lighting you can -- you rate your

16 equipment at that. It would also force the -- prevent

17 the addition of other things on there because you

18 wouldn't be rated by the size of your power cords and

19 some other things like that.

20 So, it might be one possible consideration.

21 MS. BARHYDT: So, the short-term enforcement

22 policy, longer-term test procedure clarification;
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1 sound like a good way to go?

2 MR. HON: Charlie Hon. I agree. That would

3 be wonderful. We'd have time to get everything de4 bugged. I think that the Department doesn't

5 understand the full ramifications of some of these

6 add-ons, because they can become very, very big power

7 hogs.

8 MR. EISNER: Do we want to add something?

9 MS. BARHYDT: Hmm?

10 MR. EISNER: Do we want to add some language

11 to this, so this --

12 MS. BARHYDT: So --

13 MR. EISNER: -- (inaudible) agree to?

14 MS. BARHYDT: -- I think what we're going to

15 try to do is draft up an actual enforcement policy

16 that people can see.

17 So, condensate pan heaters.

18 MS. ARMSTRONG: Yeah, so DOE's position is

19 that condensate pan heaters should be on during the

20 test period. I realize that there are some questions

21 about what water levels may be used, just so that to

22 normalize the testing, so that we may need to issue
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1 some clarification on the testing procedure itself.

2 But, the pan heaters, period, should be on during

3 tests. We plan to issue guidance on how to test, the

4 melt water issue, to address that.

5 Okay?

6 MR. EISNER: Is everybody okay?

7 MR. SHEBIK: Ron Shebik with Hussmann. My

8 only question with that is are you going to

9 differentiate between a self-contained case that may

10 use heated condensate pans as typical design, as

11 opposed to a remote case, which is designed to drain

12 the water to a floor drain.

13 It will have a -- it will be the rarity,

14 where you would have a heated condensate pan.

15 MS. ARMSTRONG: Should we need to address

16 them separately, we could.

17 MR. SHEBIK: Okay. Because that was one of

18 the discussions we had in our previous meeting, was

19 that on the remote cases that would be an atypical

20 design where you'd have a heated condensate pan,

21 normally, because the customer doesn't have the floor

22 drain readily available.
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1 MS. ARMSTRONG: It would still need to be

2 on.

3 MR. SHEBIK: It would need to be on?

4 MS. ARMSTRONG: Um-hmm. That is our going5 in position.

6 MR. SHEBIK: Okay.

7 MS. ARMSTRONG: Yep.

8 MR. SHEBIK: Okay.

9 MS. ARMSTRONG: Okay.

10 The next one is condensate pumps. We look

11 at these as just another way to remove condensate, and

12 so just as with heaters, they should also be on during

13 tests. And we can issue test procedure guidance or

14 clarification, somehow that makes it clear that

15 condensate pumps also be on during the tests.

16 MR. SACHS: Harvey Sachs. Are the

17 condensate pumps on CRE typically, 100 percent duty

18 cycle? So, if you're not specifying --

19 MS. ARMSTRONG: That's the issue.

20 MR. SACHS: -- temperature and humidity, I

21 don't know how it's cycling.

22 MS. ARMSTRONG: Do you want to?
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1 MR. HON: Charlie Hon. The test procedure

2 gives you 55 percent relative humidity, plus or minus

3 5 percent.

4 MS. ARMSTRONG: Correct.

5 MR. HON: The temperature is 75 degrees

6 Fahrenheit; plus or minus 2 degrees Fahrenheit.

7 MR. SACHS: (Inaudible.)

8 MR. HON: It's -- but, unfortunately --

9 Charlie Hon, again. Unfortunately, due to the test

10 rooms controlling humidity more than within 5 percent,

11 is about as accurate as we can really do it. So,

12 that's the problem with it.

13 MR. SACHS: Harvey Sachs. Thank you.

14 MS. ARMSTRONG: So, I think what the --

15 MR. EISNER: Any questions?

16 MS. ARMSTRONG: -- condensate removal, I

17 mean, Harvey, you hit the issue on the head. The

18 issue is how, the methodology, which we're going to

19 heave to deal with through the Test Procedure Rule not

20 through here. Our clarification here is that they

21 should be operational. And then, the question of

22 normalizing the methodology, we will need to address.
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1 MR. EISNER: Is everybody comfortable with

2 this one for now?

3 MS. ARMSTRONG: Okay, so the next one, we

4 had a question about anti-sweat heaters that are in

5 the doors and whether they're operational during tests

6 or not.

7 DOE's position is that they should be

8 operational during tests. Those that are on or off,

9 and do not have individual controls, should be

10 switched on. If a controller is present, it should be

11 utilized. So, if a manufacturer goes to the trouble to

12 integrate a controller that you know controls when

13 it's operational, depending on the type of conditions,

14 then they should be put in a mode where the controller

15 is utilized. But otherwise, if it's just on or off,

16 they should be active during tests.

17 MR. HON: Charlie Hon. You're saying an

18 on/off switch would have to be on --

19 MS. ARMSTRONG: Correct

20 MR. HON: -- but any variable sensing

21 devices could be in --

22 MS. ARMSTRONG: Absolutely.
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1 MR. HON: -- Okay.

2 MS. ARMSTRONG: Well, the idea would be the

3 variable sensing devices. Encourage.

4 MR. SACHS: Harvey Sachs. Is the LGE

5 algorithm allowed?

6 MS. ARMSTRONG: No comment.

7 MR. EISNER: Is everybody all right with

8 this one?

9 Okay, the next one?

10 MS. ARMSTRONG: So, the next one is UV

11 lights. And so, our position on this one is that we

12 will issue a guidance that UV lights do not need to be

13 turned on for tests. But you do have to have an

14 identical model available for testing that does not

15 have the UV lights on them, or that it can be switched

16 off. So, this would be an enforcement guidance.

17 MR. EISNER: Questions? Concerns?

18 Is everybody comfortable?

19 Excellent.

20 MS. ARMSTRONG: Okay. These have to do

21 with, as I understand it --

22 COURT REPORTER: The microphone.
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1 MS. ARMSTRONG: Sorry. These have to do

2 with illuminated temperature displays and alarms that

3 are integrated into the system. The idea here would

4 be that the displays and alarms should be engaged

5 during tests, but they won't be alarming.

6 Does that make sense? So, in other words,

7 we don't expect the alarm to go off and that kind of

8 stuff, but we also don't expect those things to be

9 disabled. They should be enabled, but they don't need

10 to be like I don't know what the better word would --

11 alarmed, for lack of a better term.

12 MR. EISNER: Any questions? Concerns?

13 Okay.

14 MS. ARMSTRONG: Condenser flour filters, our

15 position here is that filters would be removed during

16 testing, and we would issue guidance stating such.

17 MR. EISNER: Any questions or comments?

18 Concerns?

19 Okay, next one.

20 MS. ARMSTRONG: Okay. Refrigeration System

21 Security Covers. These are straps or other devices

22 that are used to secure the condensing unit, as we
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1 understand this. They would be removed for testing,

2 DOE'S position.

3 MR. EISNER: Same thing? Anything?

4 Okay, next issue.

5 MS. ARMSTRONG: So, with night curtains and

6 covers, our position is that they are fully addressed

7 by the test procedure, as it's written now. And if

8 you don't believe that's the case, then you can apply

9 for a waiver, but DOE has stated its position pretty

10 clearly on these, so you're going to have to

11 articulate why we should change our position, or why

12 your product operates differently than that position.

13 MR. EISNER: Questions?

14 MS. ARMSTRONG: So, we don't believe any

15 type of guidance is needed on this one, or

16 clarification.

17 Go ahead.

18 MR. STANONIK: Frank Stanonik.

19 COURT REPORTER: Can you go to a microphone,

20 sir?

21 MR. STANONIK: Frank Stanonik. For those of

22 us who don't know, so how it's covered right now?
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1 Does it make it a new model if you have one of these?

2 MS. ARMSTRONG: Does it make it a new model

3 just because you have a night curtain? Not

4 necessarily.

5 MR. STANONIK: But, it could?

6 MS. ARMSTRONG: It could with the new test

7 procedure. I don't believe it could during the

8 current test procedure.

9 MR. STANONIK: Okay.

10 MS. ARMSTRONG: Yeah, the amended one. I

11 believe that's correct. That's off the top of my

12 head, though, so if there are questions about that you

13 should follow up, because I'm three weeks in here, so

14 I'm a little sleepy.

15 MR. EISNER: Anybody have anything they want

16 to raise?

17 MALE VOICE: (Inaudible.)

18 MR. EISNER: That's the energy efficiency?

19 MALE VOICE: Do you know who makes the unit

20 in this building? We've got them all here, why don't

21 we?

22 MR. EISNER: Are there any questions on this
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1 one?

2 MR. SHEBIK: Yeah, this is Ron Shebik of

3 Hussmann. When you referred -- back to night curtain.

4 When you refer to the current procedure, you're

5 talking about the one, the ASHRAE procedure that's

6 just coming out? Would that be correct?

7 MS. ARMSTRONG: So, regardless of what's

8 coming out of ASHRAE, until DOE goes through the

9 process of evaluating it, and then either adopting it

10 or revising it, et cetera, et cetera, it's just the

11 DOE procedure that we care about.

12 MR. SHEBIK: Okay.

13 MS. ARMSTRONG: Which, is 70 --

14 MR. HON: Charlie Hon.

15 MS. ARMSTRONG: -- Yeah.

16 MR. HON: The DOE procedure calls for, if

17 you have an open case, six hours of closed curtain --

18 MS. ARMSTRONG: Correct.

19 MR. HON: -- and --

20 MR. SHEBIK: Um-hmm.

21 MR. HON: -- the rest 18 hours of open on an

22 open case.
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1 MR. SHEBIK: Right.

2 MR. HON: If it's integral, if it's

3 installed integral to the unit and shipped as part of

4 the unit.

5 MR. SHEBIK: So, the new proposed ASHRAE

6 procedure, will that be in agreement with this?

7 MR. HON: The proposed ASHRAE procedure will

8 not be in agreement with this. The proposed ASHRAE is

9 calling for eight hours to be paralleling the door

10 openings process. But that's -- the Department of

11 Energy has every right to modify --

12 MR. SHEBIK: Um-hmm.

13 MR. HON: -- their test procedure from ours.

14 MR. SHEBIK: Okay.

15 MR. EISNER: Okay, no questions.

16 The next one.

17 MS. ARMSTRONG: Okay.

18 The next one, grill options. So, special

19 grills that are used to direct air flow, DOE is

20 considering issuing guidance that if present non21 standard grills, so specialty grills, would be removed

22 for testing.
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1 MR. EISNER: Any questions?

2 MR. HON: Charlie Hon, True Manufacturing.

3 "Removed for testing" because that could be either

4 very positive, or very negative, on a test. Grills

5 quite often direct consistent air into an out of the

6 coils. Other times, they're a big restrictor, so it

7 could be very positive or a negative on a test.

8 Sorry.

9 MS. ARMSTRONG: We've got to pick a position

10 here.

11 MR. HON: That's why I'm asking the

12 question.

13 MS. ARMSTRONG: I was --

14 MR. HON: If they're taken off completely,

15 most units will perform better than the other way.

16 So, if you're doing non-standard grills -- because the

17 standard grills would be included in the test.

18 MS. ARMSTRONG: Correct. Standard grills

19 would --

20 MR. HON: Right.

21 MS. ARMSTRONG: -- always be included. So,

22 our position here is just non-standard grills would be
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1 excluded.

2 MR. HON: Charlie Hon, again. The question

3 is, under non-standard grill conditions sometimes we

4 have very directive heat. We're trying to direct the

5 heat in a certain pattern. And the test procedure, as

6 it exists today, has no closure around the unit, so it

7 allows for completely open air, while quite often

8 specific tests or directional grills are designed

9 because the unit is being under a counter, or trapped

10 inside of some other, which is a very big strain on

11 the system.

12 So, I just wanted to verify that's what

13 we're looking at because 95 percent of the time, at

14 least, it may be 99 percent of the time, we will see

15 an improvement on energy efficiency, from what you

16 would see in the field.

17 MR. EISNER: Any other questions? Issues?

18 Okay, the next item.

19 MS. ARMSTRONG: Okay, coated coils.

20 So, the Department is willing to consider

21 issuing some type of guidance for coated coils,

22 however, we're going to turn it around on you guys,
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1 because we need a definitive decision that

2 differentiates coated coils that need to be, as I

3 understand it, a certain thickness, or a certain

4 minimum thickness, to really stand up in corrosive

5 environments, versus those that have a minimum coating

6 and are really part of your standard practice.

7 So, we're willing to consider some type of

8 clarification for coated coils, as long as there could

9 be some distinguishing definition that can be written

10 about what a coated coil really is. So we ask you guys

11 for that input for us to consider.

12 MR. EISNER: Any suggestions? Any comments?

13 Did we take too much time off between

14 meetings?

15 MS. HOOTMAN: I assume you're going to want

16 that --

17 MS. ARMSTRONG: We're not -- I did what I

18 thought was the easier product type first. Ease back

19 into this. But your assumption might be correct.

20 MS. BARHYDT: And you don't have to answer

21 right here on the spot.

22 MS. ARMSTRONG: Yeah, yeah.
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1 MS. BARHYDT: Give it some thought and you

2 can get back to us.

3 MR. HON: I'm Charlie Hon. A question for

4 you: Are you looking for some? Because coated coils

5 can do anything from a very thin, very minimal

6 protective coating, an eco-type coating, all the way

7 up to where you redesign the entire coil, put a steal

8 coil in it with a 10 ml thick coating on top of it in

9 severe environments.

10 Do you -- are you looking for something that

11 covers 95 percent of the work, or something that

12 covers the worst case?

13 MS. ARMSTRONG: Well, keep in mind, if we

14 were to issue some type of guidance saying, either

15 "coated coils don't need to be" -- like "truly coated

16 coils that meet the definition don't need to be

17 tested," you have to have a standard one offered, to

18 get the exception.

19 So, if your standard offering is some

20 minimum type of coating, or something really you know

21 thin, that should not be considered an exclusion, in

22 our mind, or considered for not testing. That is your
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1 standard offering. But, we understand that there

2 could be different levels of coating and there needs -

3 - the market necessitates different levels of coating.

4 And so, what we are asking from you is, how

5 do you differentiate, or how should the Department

6 differentiate between a standard coating that's every

7 day wear-and-tear versus one that's really needed for

8 a corrosive environment, whatever that corrosive

9 environment may be. So, I don't think 95 percent

10 would be the right number.

11 MR. STANONIK: Frank Stanonik, ACHRI.

12 Ashley just said something that was a little

13 confusing. You said something about a standard

14 coating that was there for everyday wear-and-tear, and

15 as you said this -- you know, addressing when it's an

16 option. If it's standard, right, then it would get

17 tested.

18 MS. ARMSTRONG: Absolutely. That's what I'm

19 saying. I need a way to differentiate. I mean,

20 that's still in my mind, a coated coil. It has a

21 coating on it; right? So, how do we differentiate

22 that standard, what you just said, from something that
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1 is different and has maybe a thicker coating, or a

2 different type of coating?

3 MR. STANONIK: But, okay, but wouldn't the

4 manufacturer, again, if he's indicating on model x

5 that this -- you know, this model comes with coated

6 coils, or whatever -- I mean, that's the standard. If

7 he indicates that model x can be purchased without

8 uncoated coils, and then coated coils are an option --

9 MS. ARMSTRONG: So, as I understand it, they

10 ask from you guys for the Department, is to consider

11 writing -- either enforcing a guidance that says, "We

12 will not test units with coated coils."

13 MR. STANONIK: Right.

14 MS. ARMSTRONG: And if I say that regardless

15 of whether it's standard or not, I've said I will not

16 test them. So, if the only option someone's offering

17 is coated coils, then that's not fair.

18 So, what we're trying to do is

19 differentiating the two; right? There are -- we

20 understand there are reasons you really need coated

21 coils --

22 MR. STANONIK: Right.
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1 MS. ARMSTRONG: -- and they impact --

2 there's no doubt about it, they impact the

3 performance. So, we're saying, help us understand

4 what standard -- what may be a standard coating, a

5 standard offering, because we understand that in some

6 cases that is the standard. And how we could write an

7 exclusion or enforcement guidance or test procedure

8 guidance to accommodate you know the more corrosive

9 type of coatings that would have a larger detrimental

10 impact on the efficiency.

11 Apparently, I still confused you. Sorry.

12 MR. CYMBALSKY: But it's enough that he went

13 to sit down.

14 MR. SACHS: Ashley?

15 Ashley?

16 MS. ARMSTRONG: Yes, sir?

17 MR. SACHS: Harvey Sachs. And I guess the

18 issue, to me, is the performance degradation. If a

19 manufacturer can show that heat transfer is

20 decremented by x percent with that coating, then it's

21 exempt from testing.

22 Now, that's very much a performance one, and
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1 we can argue about whether it's 1 percent, 5 percent,

2 or 25 percent, but would that be a whole lot easier

3 than getting into which is a real epoxy and which is

4 an oxide-only?

5 MS. ARMSTRONG: It could be -- like I said,

6 that was our turnaround question to the industry. We

7 are definitely open to considering it. We think

8 there's merit there, but we would need help in

9 defining how you differentiate a coated coil, how you

10 define them.

11 MR. SACHS: Would that work for you guys?

12 MR. SHEBIK: Ron Shebik of Hussmann. I can

13 speak for us because I'm familiar with our system, but

14 if you have a standard -- you know, your standard bomb

15 has a coated coil that's your standard. That's what

16 you offer on every case. If you've got an additional

17 coating that's for exclusive environments, that will

18 be like a kit option. That would be an add-on,

19 something different as --

20 I mean, is that a simple way to define this?

21 MS. ARMSTRONG: Absolutely.

22 MR. SHEBIK: Does that work --
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1 MS. ARMSTRONG: It could be.

2 MR. SHEBIK: -- for other manufacturers?

3 MS. ARMSTRONG: We just need a way to know -

4 - I mean, what we didn't want to say is "Coated coils

5 are excluded" because we under -- like you just

6 explained. Some of them are absolutely standard. So,

7 we need a way of differentiating, and you guys know

8 your product offering the best, far better than we do.

9 So, we are asking for your help with that.

10 MR. SHEBIK: Okay.

11 MR. SACHS: So, would that work for you,

12 Charlie?

13 MR. HON: Charlie Hon. We will have to look

14 at this very carefully, because a majority of the

15 places where we would expect coated coils to be

16 applied are standard product and they are designed

17 because of the type of product that's normally put

18 into them. The service over a counter is where a

19 majority of coated coils are used, in our market. So,

20 that's pretty much a given that they're in there.

21 But, we do sell some because people want lower power

22 consumption. We do sell a few that do not have coated
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1 coils in them, as a separate, basically, a separate

2 model.

3 But by putting aluminum fin condensers in

4 there -- I mean, evaporators in there -- you end up

5 with a different product nature completely.

6 MR. EISNER: Okay, next one.

7 MS. ARMSTRONG: So, we're hoping to get

8 input from you guys, so if you guys could send us

9 something, that would be great.

10 So, the next one -- we just had a question

11 come up on Friday about internal secondary coolant

12 circuits. And we just wanted to clarify that we

13 believe the existing test procedure provides a method

14 of tests for these, and they just should be treated as

15 standard direct expansion units when tested, period.

16 They're not excluded. They don't get an exemption.

17 And this is how you test them. Okay?

18 MR. EISNER: Is that okay?

19 MS. ARMSTRONG: So, that one's already

20 addressed by the existing regs.

21 So, the next one that came up was wedge

22 cases. And we do describe the treatment of wedge cases
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1 in the CFR already. It's in 431.66, if anyone wants

2 to know where it is. However, we understand that some

3 wedge cases may be, their refrigeration systems may

4 either be undersized or they may be utilizing their

5 refrigeration systems on the units to the right and/or

6 the left of them. So, if you feel that -- right now,

7 the test procedure requires that the wedge, be tested

8 individually. It must meet the standards

9 individually.

10 So, if you do not believe that's

11 representative of your wedge cases' use that the test

12 procedure is not -- you need to come get a waiver.

13 That's the best way we can deal with it now. That's

14 the now-term fix. The long-term fix is that we could

15 investigate testing them a different way in an open

16 test procedure rule, if they should be -- you know, if

17 we should consider testing them you know as a -- more

18 like a system. But that's now the existing provisions

19 work.

20 Okay?

21 You can come get a waiver, though, and that

22 waiver could -- as part of that waiver you could ask
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1 for them to be tested in a different manner, if the

2 existing test procedure is unrepresentative.

3 MR. SHEBIK: Ron Shebik with Hussmann. But,

4 not excluded? You're saying they'll still be tested,

5 even if they're not designed to operate without the

6 parent case? They would still have to be tested --

7 MS. ARMSTRONG: So, you're --

8 MR. SHEBIK: -- tested in some manner?

9 MS. ARMSTRONG: -- fix there is, if they're

10 not designed to operate without the parent case, and

11 our test procedure requires that they be tested

12 individually, without the parent case, you will come

13 get a waiver. You will come request the Department to

14 consider a waiver --

15 MR. SHEBIK: Um-hmm.

16 MS. ARMSTRONG: -- from the test procedure,

17 for your unit to be tested with a parent case.

18 MR. SHEBIK: Okay.

19 MS. ARMSTRONG: But that does not exclude

20 them from the standards. The standards, they would

21 still have to meet on an individual basis. The test

22 method could -- we could consider a different test
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1 method.

2 MR. SHEBIK: Okay.

3 MS. ARMSTRONG: That's the near-term fix.

4 MR. SHEBIK: All right.

5 MS. ARMSTRONG: The long-term fix would be

6 we would need to reevaluate them in an Open Notice and

7 Comment Rulemaking about how wedge cases should be

8 tested.

9 MR. SHEBIK: Okay. I'll throw out one last

10 comment. That's a huge burden on the manufacturer to

11 build two separate cases, in addition to a wedge. Not

12 to mention the space requirement to test this.

13 MS. ARMSTRONG: Yeah, I'm not --

14 MR. SHEBIK: You need a very large room.

15 MS. ARMSTRONG: -- unfortunately, we are

16 very clear in the regs about how wedge cases are

17 subject to standards. And it's on an individual

18 basis.

19 MR. SHEBIK: Right. And that's the problem

20 as some wedges aren't designed to operate by

21 themselves. They don't have the capacity.

22 MS. ARMSTRONG: I get it. I'm giving you
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1 the best fix --

2 MR. SHEBIK: Okay.

3 MS. ARMSTRONG: -- we can at this point.

4 MR. SHEBIK: Right.

5 MR. AMRANE: Karim Amrane, HRI. I think

6 maybe to take away from the discussion is maybe a fix

7 to the current regulations that -- do we -- there's a

8 rulemaking ongoing, right, on commercial

9 refrigeration? Maybe there's a way -- there would be a

10 way here to fix that because I think it's an issue.

11 MS. ARMSTRONG: I mean, like I said, any

12 fixes to what we're very clear on, would need to go

13 through Notice and Comment Rule. We can't take them

14 away. We can't take away coverage. They're on the

15 books. But what we could do is fix the position going

16 forward. The short-term fix for compliance with

17 existing standards, though, is the test procedure

18 waiver.

19 MR. AMRANE: Right.

20 MS. ARMSTRONG: So.

21 MR. EISNER: Okay, next issue?

22 MS. ARMSTRONG: Thank you, Brenda.
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1 Okay. Misting systems: As we understand

2 these are like dispensing water systems to maintain

3 quality of products that they are displaying, more or

4 less. We will consider test procedure guidance

5 issuing that they should be inactive during tests.

6 So, in other words, you do not have to have the

7 misting system on during the test.

8 MR. EISNER: Any concerns?

9 Okay, next issue.

10 MS. ARMSTRONG: All right.

11 Air purifiers, this is the same thing, to

12 remove contaminants from the air. We also will

13 consider issuing guidance to indicate that air

14 purifiers should not be active during tests.

15 MR. EISNER: Is there anything on this one?

16 MR. HON: Charlie Hon. Would that include -

17 - some of these have a HEPA-type filter in place --

18 removal of the filter, the same as we did in the

19 flower?

20 MS. BARHYDT: Yeah; the general idea is to

21 remove the filter. So, whether it's for a flower or

22 it's for air purification, either way.
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1 MS. ARMSTRONG: Okay. The next one, general

2 purpose outlets. Just general purpose outlets used to

3 power non-standard accessories, so that somebody wants

4 -- should not be used during tests.

5 So, in other words, they're present, they're

6 integral, but they shouldn't be energized. I mean no

7 one should be plugged into them; nothing should be

8 plugged into them during a test.

9 MR. EISNER: Any concerns?

10 Okay, next issue.

11 MS. ARMSTRONG: Crankcase heaters, our

12 option here, our DOE's position here is that they

13 should be active during tests. If they have a control

14 scheme on them, that should be active as well. So,

15 they should be active in a manner that's consistent

16 with the way they're used in the field. So, if they

17 only come on at certain conditions, then they would

18 only be triggered if those conditions arise in the

19 test procedure.

20 However, if they're on all the time by

21 default, if it's an unregulated crankcase heater,

22 Kareem's favorite topic, then it would be on during
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1 tests.

2 MR. EISNER: Any concerns?

3 Okay, next issue.

4 MS. ARMSTRONG: Interior/exterior liners,

5 our opinion here is that the thermal impact of any

6 type of liners will be captured by the test procedure

7 already.

8 So, there's no clarification needed here.

9 If you vary your material and it changes, you know --

10 if it changes the rating -- if you vary -- if you have

11 multiple liners for the same unit, and it changes the

12 rating, you can either group them as one, as the least

13 efficient, or you can you know rate them individually.

14 It's up to you. Okay?

15 MR. EISNER: Next issue.

16 MS. ARMSTRONG: So that's it --

17 MR. EISNER: That's it?

18 MS. ARMSTRONG: -- for CRE. Are there any

19 outstanding questions or issues?

20 Many of these things come down to test

21 procedure issues from the Department, or test

22 procedure clarifications in terms of what accessories
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1 are on or off during tests. So, we walk through our

2 position, and obviously, we asked for your help on

3 coated coils and then, there's still the first issue

4 of display signs and how we're going to deal with

5 that. But those are the two outstanding.

6 MR. HON: Charlie Hon. Also, the condensate

7 - - how to handle the test procedure for condensate

8 pans.

9 MS. ARMSTRONG: Right. So, the methodology

10 in terms of water level, correct. Absolutely. Other

11 than that, does that resolve most of the issues?

12 So, we would be back to the fundamental

13 definition of CRE.

14 Corey, can you go to slide six, I think?

15 MS. ARMSTRONG: So, we would be -- for the

16 basic model definition, we would be on the first

17 section that would be the definition of basic model.

18 And then, we would go through the process of issuing

19 test procedure clarifications, either through a rule

20 or through guidance, whichever is applicable and/or

21 enforcement guidance where needed about certain

22 features that would not be tested.
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1 MR. SHEBIK: Ashley, I've got one last

2 question.

3 MS. ARMSTRONG: Sure.

4 MR. SHEBIK: And it's from another

5 manufacturer, so I'm trying to figure out how to word

6 this. But if you have two identical construction

7 refrigerator cases, with the exception that one has

8 LED lighting, and one has fluorescent lighting. In

9 the eyes of the Department, would it then be -- and

10 they consumed different energy levels --

11 MS. ARMSTRONG: Um-hmm.

12 MR. SHEBIK: -- because of the lighting.

13 Then, based on the definition of basic model, those

14 are two different basic models because they have two

15 different energy consumption levels.

16 MS. ARMSTRONG: They don't have to be, but

17 yeah.

18 MR. CYMBALSKY: You can rate at the lower --

19 MR. SHEBIK: Is it --

20 MS. ARMSTRONG: The florescent one.

21 MR. SHEBIK: But, now, that's considered

22 basic model grouping, I guess, where that would be
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1 basic --

2 MS. ARMSTRONG: No. Our basic model says --

3 it would allow you to group them together, if you

4 want. They don't have to have -- you have to rate them

5 the same, though, if you do that. That's the key.

6 MR. SHEBIK: -- All right.

7 MS. ARMSTRONG: You couldn't claim the LED

8 more efficient rating.

9 MR. SHEBIK: That's understood. I just -- I

10 guess they're going by the definition of basic model -

11 - trying to differentiate when something is the same,

12 and when something is different because of the

13 identical -- essentially identical electrical values.

14 MS. BARHYDT: Right, so they're the same --

15 COURT REPORTER: Microphone?

16 MS. BARHYDT: Oh, right.

17

18 So, they're the same when the manufacturer

19 chooses to rate them the same. The manufacturer

20 decides what essentially, identical is.

21 MR. SHEBIK: Okay.

22 MS. BARHYDT: If you choose to rate them the
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1 same, they're the same. If you choose to rate them

2 differently --

3 MS. ARMSTRONG: They're different.

4 MS. BARHYDT: -- they're different.

5 MR. SHEBIK: Okay.

6 MS. DANE: This is Mary Dane from Traulsen.

7 So, I think what the confusion comes in as, is what is

8 the definition of "essentially the same," but I think

9 you just answered that. Is if it's up to the

10 manufacturer to decide what makes it the same, then

11 some of these things might become a little clearer

12 when we're model grouping.

13 MS. ARMSTRONG: Absolutely. And you may do

14 it different than Charlie does it, and that's why

15 we've left it that way. It's we've left it to you.

16 MS. DANE: Okay. So, there's not going to

17 be any definition of "essentially" that's up for

18 interpretation. Okay. Thank you.

19 MS. BARHYDT: Our expectation is that you

20 don't want us to circumscribe that because we want to

21 give you that flexibility.

22 MR. EISNER: Okay. Any concerns?
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1 Done with this definition?

2 MR. CYMBALSKY: We're going to need a break.

3 MR. EISNER: Okay. Let's take a break for

4 ten minutes.

5 (Whereupon, there was a brief recess.)

6 MR. EISNER: All right. So we can get

7 started with the slide that's up on the screen now.

8 Laura, refresh my recollection that these were the

9 issues we were on at the last meeting, where DOE said

10 that they wanted to go back and think about where they

11 were. I'm now prepared to go over that and discuss

12 each one of them with the group.

13 MS. BARHYDT: Okay. So same sort of thing

14 as we've been doing. Basic model definition for PTACs

15 and -- how in the world do you say that?

16 MR. CYMBALSKY: We don't say that one.

17 MS. BARHYDT: We don't say that one?

18 MR. CYMBALSKY: PTACs covers it all.

19 MS. BARHYDT: So this was the basic model

20 definition we had before, except that DOE is proposing

21 that instead of the exclusion language that we had at

22 the last meeting, that we deal with some of the issues
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1 through test procedures or enforcement guidance. And

2 so before we go into the different areas where you've

3 identified issues, if you would first read just the

4 basic model definition and see whether that covers all

5 the different variations that you all wanted to make

6 sure were included in that definition.

7 MR. THARP: Rusty Tharp with Goodman. I'd

8 like to add decorative grills to the list, or at least

9 suggest we add that, for the similar reasons as the

10 CRE group.

11 MALE SPEAKER: Outdoor grills?

12 MR. THARP: Yes.

13 MS. ARMSTRONG: What do you mean by

14 "decorative"? How do you distinguish, I mean, a

15 decorative one for a non-decorative one?

16 MR. THARP: Rusty Tharp, Goodman. It's

17 typically -- different chains will have a different --

18 MS. ARMSTRONG: Color.

19 MR. THARP: And so it's not something that

20 we put on our standard product as it goes out the

21 door. They're typically special order-type items.

22 MR. WHITWELL: Yeah, this is Bob Whitwell
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1 from Carrier. We're not into the business anymore,

2 but we used to have what we called a standard grille

3 in our literature, and then we would have optional

4 architectural grilles, which would have larger louvres

5 (ph), you know, or -- and --

6 MS. ARMSTRONG: Okay.

7 MR. WHITWELL: -- different materials.

8 MS. ARMSTRONG: And you clearly distinguish

9 them in your literature now?

10 MR. WHITWELL: Yes.

11 MS. ARMSTRONG: Okay. What do we mean by

12 extended wall sleeves? I mean, other than -- I

13 understand what they mean in the field, but what do we

14 mean by them in the test procedure world? Because

15 they're -- I mean --

16 MR. JOHNSON: Ashley, this is Tom, back

17 here.

18 MS. ARMSTRONG: Oh, hi.

19 MR. JOHNSON: Welcome back.

20 MS. ARMSTRONG: Thank you.

21 MR. JOHNSON: The standard wall sleeve is

22 generally 14 inches.
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1 MS. ARMSTRONG: Yes.

2 MR. JOHNSON: Okay. And so -- but there's

3 many applications where -- or not many, but there's

4 several -- a few applications where they'll go up to

5 as far as 31 inches. So from a test procedure, you

6 can -- you can make this very clear.

7 MS. ARMSTRONG: Yeah. Is it that we don't

8 believe the existing test procedure is clear on what a

9 standard wall sleeve is for the purpose of developing

10 the rating? I didn't have time to double-check this

11 morning when I saw this --

12 MR. JOHNSON: Okay.

13 MS. ARMSTRONG: -- so that's why I'm asking.

14 MR. JOHNSON: Yeah.

15 MS. ARMSTRONG: Do we know if ASHRAE --

16 ASHRAE is not 37; right?

17 MR. JOHNSON: Oh, no, no, no. I don't know

18 if they --

19 MS. ARMSTRONG: Okay.

20 MR. AMRANE: Karim Amrane, AHRI. Are you

21 talking about the --

22 MS. ARMSTRONG: Yes.
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1 MR. AMRANE: The inside, yes.

2 MR. JOHNSON: Yeah.

3 MR. AMRANE: Okay. Yeah, I don't think

4 that's anywhere.

5 MS. ARMSTRONG: Okay. So the ask is just to

6 clarify that the test procedure conditions are at

7 standard wall sleeve dimensions of 14 inches?

8 MR. JOHNSON: Exactly.

9 MS. ARMSTRONG: Okay. What is high10 efficiency air filtration in a PTAC?

11 MR. THARP: That would just -- this is Rusty

12 with Goodman. It would be a -- a air filter that's

13 not the standard supplied -- be like a -- something

14 high -- with a MERV rating higher than the

15 manufacturer offers as standard.

16 MS. ARMSTRONG: So you're just talking about

17 a filter?

18 MR. THARP: Correct.

19 MS. HOOTMAN: Yes.

20 MS. ARMSTRONG: Correct. Coated coils is

21 going to be the same argument. We're going to get

22 into this for HVAC. You know, coated coils is
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1 something that, you know, typically in our

2 regulations, it is not separated out. If you were to

3 separate it out, you could consider it a different

4 product class to the extent it would impact the

5 efficiency consumption features. I don't think the

6 Department has a definitive position at this point on

7 coated coils, but I think the presence of a coating is

8 not an indication to the Department that it should be

9 excluded at this point in time.

10 So if there are options or some that -- you

11 know, like we -- like the discussion centered around

12 commercial refrigeration, if there are certain

13 coatings or certain environments or certain

14 degradations that would have, you know, a specific

15 type of coating that would be significantly

16 detrimental to the -- and are needed for consumer

17 utility, we could talk about those. But just the

18 presence of a coating or a different type of coating

19 that's not standard, I don't think is a definitive

20 decision that it should be treated differently.

21 MR. THARP: Rusty Tharp with Goodman. You

22 know, several coils are provided with a typical
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1 coating, a hydrophilic coating, obviously on --

2 typically used on evaporator system or both indoor and

3 outdoor coils and heat pumps. A coating for the

4 corrosive environment is -- in our option description

5 that we previously provided, it's -- we say the coated

6 coils, a condenser evaporator coil having a thin

7 layer, typically two-thousandths of an inch or less

8 thickness, on the fans or -- and/or the fans of the

9 tubes of an anticorrosive material.

10 Hydrophilic coating of itself is not a

11 anticorrosive material, so I think that would, you

12 know, preclude us from having a separate basic model

13 for something as a hydrophilic coating.

14 MS. ARMSTRONG: I guess is the ask not to

15 have a separate basic model, or is the ask that they

16 be considered for enforcement guidance? Because

17 there's different issues there. I mean, I don't think

18 we care if you rate them together; right? But the

19 fact that having a coated coil, in and of itself,

20 would exclude you from standards or testing is a

21 different issue.

22 MR. THARP: Rusty Tharp with Goodman again.
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1 I think the -- our ask is that we would like --

2 because it's -- for most products, it's a fairly small

3 percentage of the market because, again, it's mostly,

4 you know, coastal areas or industrial areas that have

5 a high corrosive content to the air. And because it's

6 such a small -- relatively small portion of the

7 market, our ask would be not a separate basic model or

8 not included in the testing.

9 MR. AMRANE: Karim Amrane, AHRI. But,

10 again, we're not saying that the unit will not be

11 testing. We're saying that you will test the unit with

12 a standard coil. So we are not -- it's not a, you

13 know

14 MR. WHITWELL: So the same -- the same coil

15 --

16 COURT REPORTER: Microphone.

17 MR. WHITWELL: Bob Whitwell from Carrier.

18 COURT REPORTER: Microphone.

19 MR. WHITWELL: Thank you. Bob Whitwell,

20 Carrier. So the same coil design, same fin, same

21 geometry, just with or without the coating.

22 MS. JAKOBS: This is Diane Jakobs from
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1 Rheem. As a suggestion, you might specify a certain

2 salt spray test resistance or something that would

3 differentiate kind of a real corrosion-resistant

4 coating versus kind of a decorative or some of the

5 other things we do, yeah.

6 MS. ARMSTRONG: Okay.

7 MR. DOPPEL: Paul Doppel with Mitsubishi. I

8 think the concern before was someone spraying black

9 paint on the coil and saying it's a coated coil, and,

10 you know, that would not be intent. I think what

11 Diane said is, you know, makes sense that it has to be

12 a salt spray test or a minimum thickness, like rusty

13 was talking about. But it's -- again, the percentage

14 is small, and it would be -- it would be difficult to

15 classify that separately.

16 MS. ARMSTRONG: Okay. So I'm going to turn

17 that one back to you guys then, right, for the ask

18 from the Department is what is a clear definition of

19 coated coils and why? Why should that be considered

20 separate? You know, I differentiate in my head -- and

21 this is not me speaking for the Department, just me as

22 Ashley, you know, I can understand the argument a
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1 little better in commercial HVAC, where you have

2 highly customized, built to order so many different

3 combinations. That's not -- that's less of the case

4 with PTACs, when they are -- they're not consumer

5 products, but they're more like -- I mean, they're --

6 you don't have all the options like you have, although

7 you may have a varying of sleeve sizes, depending on

8 if you offer nonstandard as well.

9 But so I ask that you make that -- you know,

10 in your rationale as to why we should consider this,

11 think about that, because in central air conditioners,

12 they're not -- they are considered part of the test

13 procedure. They have to be tested and rated,

14 separately or together, at your discretion. With an

15 arm (ph), they're subject to standards, and they're

16 defendant subject to verification.

17 MS. JAKOBS: This is Diane Jakobs from Rheem

18 again. And to your point about residential equipment,

19 I mean, we looked at coating coils for residential

20 equipment, and we actually found it was like a mile

21 from the sea coast, where it was really necessary, and

22 where we were talking about people's fins fall off
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1 after a year and a half, and it's very localized and

2 has to do with whether the people let the rain fall on

3 their unit, or there are all kinds of issues. So I

4 think probably, you know, PTACs are in hotels and

5 things. You know, if they're right on the sea coast,

6 that's really the real problem.

7 MS. ARMSTRONG: I don't think the Department

8 questions the utility aspect of that. They're

9 definitely -- you know, it's just a matter of how to

10 handle it at this point.

11 MR. EISNER: Is this a homework assignment

12 or something we could go do after lunch?

13 MR. THARP: It's a homework --

14 MR. EISNER: Or think about it over --

15 MR. THARP: Homework.

16 MR. EISNER: Okay.

17 MS. BARHYDT: Anything else on PTACs?

18 MS. ARMSTRONG: (Inaudible).

19 MS. BARHYDT: Yes.

20 MS. ARMSTRONG: (Inaudible).

21 MS. BARHYDT: Uh-huh.

22 MS. ARMSTRONG: (Inaudible).
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1 MR. EISNER: Okay. Are we ready for the

2 next slide?

3 MS. ARMSTRONG: So I guess from -- I'm

4 guessing for this one, does it make more sense to go

5 to the commercial HVAC and then come back to this one

6 once we get through all the issues for commercial

7 HVAC?

8 MR. THARP: Yes.

9 MS. ARMSTRONG: Okay.

10 MS. BARHYDT: Do you want to just go to the

11 list?

12 MS. ARMSTRONG: Yeah, let's go to 19.

13 So these are the lists, as I understand it,

14 of HVAC features that you guys wanted us to consider,

15 either or test procedure guidance or test procedure

16 exclusions or enforcement guidance. Like Laura said

17 at the outset, I don't think the Department, at this

18 point, is open to a basic model definition which lists

19 exclusions because that's not something that's going

20 to get you to the endpoint of what you want. Instead,

21 for us, it's really either saying it shouldn't be

22 tested with this option or should be tested with this
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1 option. In other words, it would or wouldn't affect

2 the rating and then -- and/or enforcement guidance,

3 which it would not be subject to verification and

4 enforcement testing that way. That's just how we

5 would deal with things, I think.

6 So the first one is the copper. I think the

7 Department's position, at least from what I remember

8 from the first meeting -- it's still our position

9 today -- models containing copper coils would be

10 subject to testing by the Department. They would not

11 be excluded.

12 MR. EISNER: Any comments or concerns on

13 that?

14 MR. THARP: This is Rusty with Goodman. I

15 guess, again, the question of this goes back to how we

16 consider those as basic models. So you're leaving it,

17 then, to the manufacturer to decide whether that is

18 part of the basic model or not.

19 MS. ARMSTRONG: Right. So you don't have to

20 rate them separately. You may rate them as --

21 MR. THARP: Same.

22 MS. ARMSTRONG: -- the same as the ones with
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1 aluminum coils, aluminum -- right? That's what you

2 do, I think.

3 MR. THARP: Correct. Typically, yes.

4 MS. ARMSTRONG: Okay.

5 MR. THARP: But any sample you select would

6 have to meet the 95 percent criteria.

7 MS. ARMSTRONG: They'd have to meet the

8 standard?

9 MR. THARP: Correct. Meet the -- thank you.

10 MR. EISNER: Anything else? Economizers.

11 MS. ARMSTRONG: Okay. Economizers, I think

12 this has been our position also from day one. We can

13 issue test procedure clarifications that the testing

14 does not need to be performed on units with

15 economizers, but you do need to have an identical unit

16 that would be subject to tests, if we wanted to test

17 one.

18 MS. HOOTMAN: (Inaudible).

19 MS. ARMSTRONG: So I believe it's what you

20 want, right? So we would need to be able to pick a

21 base unit without an economizer for verification or

22 enforcement testing if we so choose as well as what --
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1 but we will clarify that economizers are not part of

2 the test. So in other words, the rating would not be

3 affected by the presence of an economizer, because it

4 should be removed as part of the testing. Okay?

5 MR. THARP: Rusty Tharp with Goodman. So if

6 DOE were to select a model that did have an economizer

7 in it, it -- the economizer would be physically

8 removed before testing?

9 MS. ARMSTRONG: Yeah. And ideally you would

10 have -- so, first of all, the issue is if you do not

11 have a model without an economizer available, then the

12 economizer's fair game. However, if -- otherwise it

13 should be removed as part of the test. You should

14 have a base model available.

15 MR. THARP: Thank you.

16 MS. ARMSTRONG: Yeah.

17 MR. WHITWELL: Bob Whitwell, Carrier. Just

18 a clarification, so DOE would not order and receive a

19 unit with the economizer and then physically remove

20 it. You would order a unit without the economizer?

21 MS. ARMSTRONG: If you have one, that's

22 ideal -- ideally, yes.
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1 MR. WHITWELL: Yeah, okay.

2 MS. ARMSTRONG: Such that we could

3 distinguish the 40 asterisks of serial numbers and

4 it's very clear in your literature that here's one

5 with, and here's one without.

6 MR. WHITWELL: It can be determined, yes.

7 MS. ARMSTRONG: Okay. Thank you.

8 MR. EISNER: Any other concerns?

9 MR. MYERS: Frank Myers, PVI. Just --

10 MR. EISNER: It's okay.

11 MR. MYERS: -- in the last sentence there,

12 however, A-N, rather than A-N-D.

13 MS. BARHYDT: Yes, thank you.

14 MR. SACHS: Harvey Sachs, ACEEE. I just

15 want to put in a footnote reminding us all of -- that

16 we're seeing things like these Western Challenge

17 models and the DOE's own challenge, which will be, we

18 hope or expect, quite integrated and -- and they may

19 be a little bit challenged in a deal with the

20 identical model without the economizer.

21 MS. ARMSTRONG: Yeah, so, Harvey, I think

22 what we're talking about here is going to be our
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1 position in the near term. Ideally, when we go to the

2 next rule, the current rule for commercial air

3 conditioners, we would address the more long-term

4 issues. And that could be that we revisit this issue

5 at that time. Your point is taken, though.

6 MR. SACHS: (Inaudible).

7 MS. ARMSTRONG: Talk to your friends around

8 the table.

9 MR. EISNER: Anything else? Ventilation

10 Energy Recovery Systems?

11 MS. BARHYDT: Do we have a position here?

12 So for these -- for Ventilation Energy Recovery

13 Systems, our position at this time is we can issue

14 guidance that testing will not be performed on a unit

15 that has a Ventilation Energy Recovery System;

16 however, a model that is otherwise identical must be

17 available for testing without a Ventilation Energy

18 Recovery System. And if you don't have one, then it's

19 fair game. So I would assume there's also a way to

20 distinguish these.

21 MR. EISNER: Any comments?

22 Okay. Next issue?
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1 MS. ARMSTRONG: So the next one is the

2 process heat recovery/reclaim coils/thermal storage,

3 the Department will issue guidance indicating that

4 testing will not also be performed on these, but you

5 would have to have a model available that did not have

6 this option.

7 MR. EISNER: Comments or concerns?

8 Okay. The next one, coated coils.

9 MS. ARMSTRONG: So this is the same as for

10 PTACs and for CRE. The description's the same here.

11 We're asking you guys for guidance. We are open to

12 consider potentially some type of enforcement

13 exclusion for certain types of coated coils. It

14 shouldn't be the norm. It shouldn't be standard. So

15 we're asking for you guys how you make that

16 differentiation.

17 MR. EISNER: Any concerns? Okay. The next

18 issue is correction capacitors.

19 MS. ARMSTRONG: Yeah, so this one we see as

20 a -- more of a test procedure clarification that may

21 need to be made. We can issue clarifications that

22 power should be measured downstream of a capacitor or
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1 that the capacitor should be disconnected when

2 testing.

3 MR. EISNER: Questions, concerns?

4 Okay. Next issue?

5 MS. ARMSTRONG: Hail guards. So we will

6 also issue test procedure guidance that testing will

7 not be performed with a unit with hail guards, or that

8 hail guards should be removed. If we do get that

9 unit, the hail guards should be removed.

10 MR. EISNER: Questions, concerns?

11 Dehumidification components?

12 MS. ARMSTRONG: This one's a little more

13 complex. We're willing to consider also, you know,

14 issuing guidance that testing will not be performed on

15 units with dehumidification components, although I'm

16 wondering exactly what you mean by dehumidification

17 components in terms of what's in and what's out.

18 MR. EISNER: Definitions from somebody?

19 MS. ARMSTRONG: And so how do you -- how do

20 you tell a unit has dehumidification components versus

21 one that doesn't? And is there always a standard one

22 available?
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1 MR. THARP: Rusty Tharp with Goodman.

2 Usually, if this is an option that's provided, I --

3 and it's either a second additional coil that's put in

4 the airstream or desiccant wheel of some sort.

5 MS. ARMSTRONG: So I think the desiccant

6 wheel is pretty obvious. It's like how do you tell

7 with a second coil that that's the dehum component

8 versus another part of its design or

9 MR. FLY: This is Mark Fly with AAON.

10 Rusty, I think hot gas reheat coils are coming up in a

11 later issue, so I would interpret this to be liquid

12 desiccant systems or desiccant wheels, if I look a

13 page or two ahead.

14 MR. SACHS: Again, they're -- we're starting

15 to see the emergence of enhanced dehumidification

16 capabilities, and I think Mark's comment's very

17 helpful, but it may be limiting, and I expect to see

18 advanced products for which that auxiliary

19 dehumidification capability is integrated and no

20 longer auxiliary.

21 So it seems to me that the possibility of

22 using a performance specification of anything which
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1 has the capability of doing a sensible heat ratio less

2 than X would be defined as one for which the

3 dehumidification components might be excluded.

4 MR. FLY: Mark Fly with AAON again. The

5 problem, Harvey, is that the conditions that -- as

6 defined by the test standard really don't do anything

7 to exhibit the enhanced features that the

8 dehumidification takes advantage of, but it does

9 reflect in a pressure drop that's associated with the

10 components.

11 MR. SACHS: Harvey Sachs again. So I guess

12 what I'm asking is whether the -- whether it's worth

13 the effort because this would involve a simulation or

14 a test away from the standard test conditions to

15 evaluate. And certainly I recognize the pressure drop

16 penalty of sticking this big wheel in there, but how

17 should we proceed to keep things innovation-friendly?

18 MR. EISNER: Other thoughts? Is this a

19 homework assignment? Do you need more time or

20 MS. MEYERS: This is Karen Myers with Rheem,

21 and I think we should take this as a homework

22 assignment because Harvey's comments are very valid
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1 here as we look at next-gen products, the way we have

2 it defined now, that we won't be adequate. So I think

3 we should maybe take this as a homework assignment to

4 see if we can come up with a better way to provide a

5 definition and reasoning to the Department.

6 MR. AMRANE: This is Karim Amrane, AHRI. I

7 think it's more than just a homework assignment. I

8 think this issue probably is a test procedure long9 term change.

10 MS. ARMSTRONG: I think a lot of these are -

11 -

12 MR. AMRANE: Exactly.

13 MS. ARMSTRONG: -- honestly. I mean, a lot

14 of them are test procedure long --

15 MR. AMRANE: Long-term. So I think for the

16 immediate issue, I think we need to find a solution

17 and then work towards changing the test procedure.

18 MS. ARMSTRONG: Yeah. I mean

19 MS. MEYERS: Yeah, but the long term, what

20 does that mean?

21 MALE SPEAKER: Yeah.

22 MS. MEYERS: That --
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1 MS. ARMSTRONG: Yeah, I would say

2 concurrent; right? I mean, so to us, it's concurrent

3 with -- a lot of these that we're saying we will issue

4 guidance on, the guidance is short-term limiting. The

5 hope would be, and the commitment from the Department,

6 is to work with you guys on a longer term solution.

7 MR. FLY: This is Mark Fly with AAON again.

8 The -- and not on this list, because I know we left it

9 out of our original list, is also some of the stuff

10 that came up in the Western Cooling Challenge in

11 things like evap cooling, which would have similar

12 characteristics, not work very well at the test

13 conditions, but certainly have a real use in a piece

14 of equipment.

15 So, I mean, it has the -- the reason I bring

16 it up now is it has the same type of problems that the

17 dehumidification components are -- that these free

18 cooling off of evaporative cooling, which are really

19 humidification components, almost, would have, that

20 they don't shine at -- they don't show their value at

21 the test conditions, but they do have a value in

22 application.
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1 MR. EISNER: Others? So we agree there will

2 be some work on another -- on a better definition?

3 Long term, it's going to require changes in testing

4 procedures. Okay. Indoor fan motor?

5 MS. ARMSTRONG: Yeah. So for VFD systems, I

6 think that the short-term position, especially with

7 the EER metric, is that we will issue guidance that we

8 will not test a unit that has an integrated VFD. An

9 item -- or a model must be available without the VFD

10 that essentially is identical that should be tested,

11 so the base model. And that's the short-term.

12 MR. EISNER: Questions?

13 MR. THARP: Rusty Tharp with Goodman. I

14 would like to either suggest we modify this one to

15 include VFDs used on compressors or have a separate

16 item that I'd specifically identify as compressor with

17 VFD.

18 MS. ARMSTRONG: Why?

19 MR. THARP: It's for the same reason as the

20 indoor fan motors. You could put a VFD on a

21 compressor to turn it down, save energy consumption at

22 lower ambience. The VFD itself --
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1 MS. ARMSTRONG: Would it be kicked in,

2 though --

3 MR. THARP: Yeah.

4 MS. ARMSTRONG: -- under the test

5 conditions? It would?

6 MR. THARP: Yes. Yes. This is just like

7 the indoor fan motor VFD, so it's -- the VFD's -- has

8 power to it at all times, but it saves energy during -

9 -

10 MS. ARMSTRONG: Right.

11 MR. THARP: -- lower loads. So it's

12 basically the exact same operation as the indoor fan

13 motor.

14 MS. ARMSTRONG: Right.

15 MR. THARP: But just used on a compressor.

16 MS. ARMSTRONG: We'll consider it.

17 MR. EISNER: Anything else? Condenser fan

18 motor options.

19 MR. DOPPEL: Paul Doppel with Mitsubishi.

20 Just on that -- the VFDs, I think it would be

21 important to say an add-on VFD for the compressors,

22 because some manufacturers have standard inverter-
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1 driven compressors.

2 MS. ARMSTRONG: Okay.

3 MR. STARR: Louis Starr with NEEA. It --

4 you're under the indoor fan motor section, though.

5 That's -- the compressor's different.

6 MS. ARMSTRONG: Yeah, yeah, yeah. So

7 they're asking to add an option. Oh, Cory is?

8 MS. TUCKER: Yeah.

9 MS. ARMSTRONG: Oh, I just put a note --

10 MS. STARR: The other thing I just wanted to

11 point out, you know, when you get 100-ton unit, they

12 always have VFDs. So when we saw an order coming in

13 for one without a VFD, it's pretty obvious who's

14 ordering it, but

15 MS. HOOTMAN: This is Jill from Trane. Test

16 standard is up to 760,000 BTUs.

17 MR. STARR: Just right underneath that,

18 even, still, that would be a pretty sizable unit not

19 to have a VFD, so

20 MS. ARMSTRONG: I think at some point, the

21 Department would like to see, you know, how do we --

22 how is there -- how is it differentiate -- like how
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1 will we know there's a standard versus a not -- so how

2 do I know that I'm ordering a non-VFD versus a VFD, to

3 ensure that these things that we are agreeing to here,

4 you know, there's the ability to do standard -- what

5 is considered standard versus option?

6 MR. THARP: Rusty Tharp with Goodman. Most

7 manufacturers would be a part of the nomenclature

8 somewhere. Could be an asterisk, but it would

9 probably be defined fairly clearly in the product

10 literature

11 MS. ARMSTRONG: Okay. I mean, as long as

12 they're clear.

13 MR. JOHNSON: Yeah. Tom Johnson with

14 McQuay. I have -- I want to disagree with Louis,

15 because we ship plenty of units without VFDs, and the

16 VFDs get supplied in the field by the rep, by the

17 contractor, by whoever.

18 MS. ARMSTRONG: Okay.

19 MR. JOHNSON: So, you know, just to clarify

20 that. But they are -- they're part of an option group

21 somewhere in the model number.

22 MR. WHITWELL: Bob Whitwell with Carrier.
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1 And it may not be called out specifically VFD or not.

2 It could be constant volume unit or variable air

3 volume unit, for example. Constant volume would not

4 have a VFD. The fan runs at one speed. VAV is

5 variable air volume. We also have what we call -- for

6 Carrier, we have staged air volume, which has a VFD in

7 it. So you probably would have to look at the

8 literature, read the literature a little bit and

9 understand what the options are to make sure that --

10 you know, if you wanted to select one with or without

11 a VFD.

12 MS. ARMSTRONG: But your variable air volume

13 units would still be subject to the base, no?

14 MR. WHITWELL: Sure.

15 MS. ARMSTRONG: Yeah?

16 MR. WHITWELL: Absolutely.

17 MS. ARMSTRONG: Okay.

18 MR. WHITWELL: Okay.

19 MS. ARMSTRONG: Just those that are sold

20 with a VFD?

21 MR. WHITWELL: They -- the -- yeah, the --

22 yeah, I mean, I would expect our variable air volume
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1 units would be tested with the VFD.

2 MS. ARMSTRONG: Not if we do this. The

3 variable air volume would be base. That's -- I guess

4 that's the question.

5 MR. WHITWELL: Yeah, I mean --

6 MR. AMRANE: I guess -- this is Karim

7 Amrane, AHRI. I think we're talking about an add-on

8 to the unit, not -- I mean, if it's shipped with it, I

9 mean, if that's what you're making, it's just --

10 MR. WHITWELL: We have -- yeah. Yeah, we

11 have options --

12 MR. AMRANE: Yeah.

13 MR. WHITWELL: -- right, with or without

14 MR. AMRANE: Right.

15 MR. WHITWELL: Even -- yeah, even without

16 VAV, we have options to add the VFD; right?

17 MS. ARMSTRONG: So it's an add-on VFD? If

18 it's integrated at the manufacturer, whether -- you

19 know, if it's a VAV, if it's a VFD integrated from the

20 manufacturer, it's subject. We're good to go. It can

21 be base. That is what you're saying.

22 MR. FLY: This is Mark Fly with AAON. If
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1 the metric's going to be EER, the VFD is going to hurt

2 you at full load, and you're not going to -- not going

3 to get any advantage because you're not measuring any

4 part load points.

5 MS. ARMSTRONG: Correct.

6 MR. FLY: If the metric becomes IER, it

7 changes the ballgame.

8 MS. ARMSTRONG: Right. So the short-term

9 fix is for the existing metrics, which is EER. And

10 then, obviously, to the extent we --

11 MR. FLY: Then a constant volume or variable

12 volume unit should have the same energy efficiency,

13 except for if you put a VFD on a variable volume unit,

14 it's going to be a little bit less.

15 MS. ARMSTRONG: So I guess the question,

16 then, becomes so constant and variable are included,

17 but is a VFD that's integrated at the point of the

18 manufacturer, not an add-on, included -- should be

19 tested?

20 MR. FLY: I mean, what you're going to end

21 up doing is driving us all to sell units without VFDs.

22 MS. ARMSTRONG: I'm just asking what the ask
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1 -- I'm just trying to figure out what the ask is.

2 Like what were you guys considering? All VFDs,

3 regardless, should be excluded, or just add-on VFDs?

4 What -- where do we draw the line, and how do we tell?

5 Karim, what do you guys do, do you know, for

6 your programs?

7 MR. AMRANE: I mean, probably we test

8 without, but, again, I mean, that's what we do in our

9 program.

10 MS. ARMSTRONG: Right. I'm just asking.

11 MR. AMRANE: Yeah.

12 MR. STANONIK: Frank Stanonik with AHRI. I

13 mean, even if it got integrated at the factory, it was

14 ordered at an -- as an option, right? So it's an

15 option, so it should be tested without it.

16 MS. ARMSTRONG: Well, just because things

17 are option doesn't mean that they should be tested;

18 right? I mean, that's what we're trying to

19 differentiate, those options that should be on versus

20 those that aren't here, but

21 MR. STANONIK: Well, but in this case, you

22 know, you're making a distinction just because
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1 somebody can add it on as opposed to integrate it. If

2 it's added, it doesn't get tested. Well, the fact

3 that the manufacturer integrated it, it's still an

4 option the customer ordered; in this case, doesn't

5 need to be tested.

6 MS. ARMSTRONG: Right. I'm not -- so I

7 don't think the Department has a position on this one

8 yet. It's more of I'm trying to figure out what you

9 guys wanted --

10 MR. STANONIK: And --

11 MS. ARMSTRONG: Karim's over there telling

12 me add -- or integrated should be --

13 MR. FLY: Well --

14 MR. AMRANE: I thought I said we don't test

15 them with them.

16 MR. FLY: Yeah.

17 MS. ARMSTRONG: Said you didn't --

18 MR. FLY: Mark Fly with AAON. In the AHRI

19 program, you can list your unit as constant volume or

20 variable volume, and those units listed as variable

21 volume rate at IEER usually have a VFD on them. I

22 mean, the disconnect here is that we're using basic
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1 model groups in AHRI and we're using basic models

2 here, and so --

3 MS. ARMSTRONG: I don't see that being a

4 disconnect.

5 MR. FLY: There's a list -- I mean, they're

6 making a listing --

7 MS. ARMSTRONG: I don't see that being a

8 difference, actually, at all.

9 MR. FLY: I mean, there's a listing for a

10 variable volume unit and a listing for a constant

11 volume unit, and they're different listings.

12 MS. ARMSTRONG: You could do that here,

13 though. I mean --

14 MR. FLY: Right.

15 MS. ARMSTRONG: -- it could be identical. I

16 mean, that's the thing here. What I'm trying to

17 understand is it seems to be that you offer variable

18 volume -- variable airflow units, both with a VFD and

19 without. Is that true?

20 MS. HOOTMAN: Yes, that's true.

21 MS. ARMSTRONG: So are the ones that are --

22 are only the ones without the VFDs subject to testing,
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1 or is it -- because it's very clear that variable

2 airflow as well as fixed airflow, constant airflow,

3 should be subject to testing. It's just a matter of

4 where you draw the line for the VFD. And is it that

5 all VFDs are out, or is it that certain VFDs are in?

6 And then how do you differentiate, because if you just

7 put them on AHRI's directory as being fixed volume

8 versus variable volume, how do you tell those variable

9 volumes that have VFDs? That's the ask, I guess.

10 MALE SPEAKER: Harvey?

11 MR. SACHS: Harvey Sachs. And I think the

12 question of whether a regulation's going to drive the

13 manufacturers to offer fixed speed with a later

14 integration is an important question. The issue of

15 evolution is important. And I'd like something

16 factual. My sense has been that the parasitics

17 associated with the variable speed drive at peak load

18 are in the range of 2 percent. Is it much smaller

19 than that or much larger than that?

20 So Rusty's indicating that it is in the

21 order of 2 percent. Now, somehow -- I guess it seems

22 to me the simplest is to test it as-is, assuming that
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1 it's when the safety -- within the safety factory of

2 everybody's designs and construction, and let it be,

3 but I'm afraid I'm going to get all sorts of stones

4 hurled at me. It just -- I mean, the industry is

5 evolving toward VFDs, and this would be a mild

6 incentive to get better VFDs, recognizing that that

7 goes asymptotic, and it just seems that it would be a

8 level playing field and equal for everybody,

9 particularly as Louis tells us the programs are

10 evolving, and maybe we'll -- the utility program.

11 Maybe we'll be seeing a dual path.

12 MR. SACHS: (Inaudible).

13 MS. HOOTMAN: This is Jill from Trane. Yes,

14 it's around 2 percent, from our experience.

15 MR. SACHS: Forty percent --

16 COURT REPORTER: Microphone, sir.

17 MS. HOOTMAN: It's on.

18 COURT REPORTER: Not yours, his.

19 MR. SACHS: So it's 40 percent of the

20 allowed error margin and a mild tweak in anything that

21 you do at the design stage, in terms of assuring that

22 your product is going to pass.
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1 MS. HOOTMAN: Yeah.

2 MR. SACHS: Is it -- in other words, is this

3 a fight that's worth having?

4 MS. HOOTMAN: It's how many more other

5 options are also going to be in that whole -- yeah.

6 MR. SACHS: I'm only asking about this one -

7 -

8 MS. HOOTMAN: I know. So if it's only this

9 one, probably not the fight, but -- we still haven't

10 talked about coated coils and some other things. I

11 know when you add those all together

12 MS. JAKOBS: This is Diane Jakobs from

13 Rheem. In the 5 percent you're talking about, that's

14 for manufacturing variability, so that's not for

15 different options. Any option combination we might

16 have, we'll have some amount of variability based on

17 how things go together and what the tolerances are and

18 whether they're working for you today or against you.

19 So you can't really say that 5 percent, that we can

20 parcel it out for different activities or

21 considerations. It's really meant for manufacturing

22 variability.
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1 MS. HOOTMAN: And testing variability.

2 MS. JAKOBS: And testing variability. Thank

3 you. That's right.

4 MR. SACHS: This is Harvey Sachs, and thank

5 you for that, Diane. And I think I understood that.

6 I was only offering the 5 percent and the 2 percent as

7 sort of an estimate of the magnitude that we were

8 talking about here, not as saying we wanted to use it

9 up.

10 MR. EISNER: Any other comments?

11 Suggestions on how to resolve it?

12 MS. ARMSTRONG: Leave it open until we get

13 to the end?

14 MR. AMRANE: Maybe.

15 MS. ARMSTRONG: Maybe, for now?

16 That's way beyond my

17 MR. CYMBALSKY: Remember, a football team

18 needs more than a punter to succeed. Just saying.

19 Maybe we can get a field goal out of this,

20 huh?

21 MS. ARMSTRONG: Okay. Condenser fan motor

22 assembly design for -- basically motor options for
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1 ducting. So my general question -- and this is going

2 to come up later as well -- what -- how do you -- how

3 do you -- how do you tell when something's a higher

4 rated -- I mean, I know how you tell if it's a higher

5 rated motor, so but how do you tell something's not

6 standard for these?

7 MS. HOOTMAN: By the nomenclature.

8 MS. MEYERS: It's an option in the model

9 number.

10 MR. WHITWELL: I'm just not sure that

11 everybody has a standard --

12 COURT REPORTER: Microphone, sir.

13 MS. ARMSTRONG: Yeah, so we don't --

14 MR. WHITWELL: Yeah, the question is whether

15 we all have something that we described as standard

16 and then -- and then identify others as nonstandard;

17 right?

18 MS. ARMSTRONG: That is going to be the

19 differentiation point, because if you don't have

20 something that's considered standard verse -- I mean,

21 the key to all this is if we agree and issue

22 enforcement guidance, that this is a -- what we call a
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1 nonstandard component and would be excluded from

2 testing, then you have to have to have a standard

3 version of it clearly available; otherwise it becomes

4 standard.

5 MS. JAKOBS: This is Diane Jakobs again.

6 And we don't sell these, but from the discussion last

7 time, they were talking about the fact that you have

8 ducting as an option, and then when you have a duct,

9 then there's a different motor that goes along with

10 it, so a non -- so you wouldn't have like a standard,

11 ducted model, from the way I understood the

12 discussion, but the fact that a ducted model was

13 nonstandard -- does that make -- they were talking

14 about like in a large building, you'd have one floor

15 that's a mechanical room and that you would -- they

16 would have a bunch of equipment, and it would be

17 ducted to the outside. But that would be a non -- a

18 ducted model. A condenser fan duct is nonstandard.

19 MS. ARMSTRONG: Okay. So you're ducting the

20 condenser outside --

21 MR. WHITWELL: Yeah.

22 MS. ARMSTRONG: -- is the issue.
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1 MR. WHITWELL: Yes, yes.

2 MS. ARMSTRONG: So if it's -- okay, so that

3 makes more sense. I think we need to clarify this

4 one, so --

5 MR. KOJAK: What was brought up last time

6 was --

7 MS. ARMSTRONG: I apologize for not knowing

8 --

9 MR. KOJAK: -- depending on the length of

10 the duct for the condenser, it's specced out when it's

11 ordered, the size of the fan, in order to push out the

12 proper air through the amount of ductwork that they're

13 going to have, depending on where it's located with --

14 inside the building. So the further it has to go, the

15 bigger the fan, so that's going to be customized to

16 the location of the unit when they finally install it.

17 MS. ARMSTRONG: Okay. Right, so I guess

18 what is standard, then, is my question? So --

19 MR. AMRANE: Standard is non-ducted --

20 COURT REPORTER: Microphone?

21 MS. ARMSTRONG: Yeah, yeah, yeah. So I get

22 that. So all ducted ones -- right, but so what does
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1 that mean in terms of us knowing -- so the non-ducted

2 version would be clearly separated from the ducted

3 version?

4 MR. WHITWELL: Well, I think -- Bob Whitwell

5 from Carrier. So I think it's more complex than that

6 because it actually -- you have to get into like --

7 like we have software called The Builder, which you

8 would go into that, and you would tell it, "I have a

9 certain external static requirement for my product,"

10 and it tells you which motor you should order.

11 So, you know, just by going to our model

12 number nomenclature page and seeing the list of

13 motors, you can't tell which one is the, quote,

14 standard or the nonstandard. But if you were to go

15 in, and you were to engage with our people or you go

16 in and use The Builder -- the sales tools, it will

17 tell you which one to use for a non-ducted

18 application, in the case of this particular -- non19 ducted condenser application. Is that -- is that

20 clear?

21 MS. ARMSTRONG: I mean, it's clear. I think

22 -- I mean, take it from our position in that we just
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1 are trying to differentiate the ask of -- I mean, this

2 goes with both the -- whether --

3 MR. WHITWELL: Yeah.

4 MS. ARMSTRONG: -- we're talking condenser

5 or -- I mean, this goes with the motor options,

6 period, right?

7 MR. WHITWELL: So -- yeah, so --

8 MS. ARMSTRONG: We're trying -- how do we

9 differentiate standard versus someone that's just

10 optimized for -- they may offer a bigger -- say they

11 optimized for a platform versus a range of tonnages,

12 and maybe it's a little bit bigger on the low end,

13 it's a little bit smaller on the high end, but they've

14 optimized that so they can order -- offer one motor

15 type across a range of tonnages.

16 I mean, how do you differentiate something

17 that's a larger motor that's necessary for a consumer

18 utility installation that has a higher static versus

19 one that's just maybe oversized, but really is

20 standard for that specific tonnage.

21 MR. WHITWELL: So just a thought. Maybe we

22 need to include this as part of the submission,
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1 certification submission, describe what is the motor?

2 I mean, the alternative, I think, is to put in the

3 literature what the DOE-tested motor is, which, you

4 know, the customers don't really care about that.

5 MS. ARMSTRONG: Yeah. I mean, you already -

6 - you already, in terms of the AEDM stuff, agreed to

7 send in -- or have an agreement for whatever sheet you

8 want, and maybe that could be part of it. I don't

9 know --

10 MR. WHITWELL: It could be part of that.

11 MS. ARMSTRONG: I don't know the answer, but

12 I'm just -- we're trying -- we're having a pretty hard

13 time grappling with the motor issue right now. The

14 Department doesn't have a position at this time, but

15 it's definitely hard for us to understand what is

16 standard versus something that's just running at a

17 higher static --

18 MR. WHITWELL: Uh-huh.

19 MS. ARMSTRONG: -- and how you

20 differentiate, you know, just by looking at your

21 literature, from what we've seen, at least, like what

22 is a standard motor versus what is just options across
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1 the platforms that may be offered.

2 So I don't know. If you guys want to, you

3 know, provide any additional insight or suggestions on

4 how we could differentiate, we're willing to consider

5 it, but at the same time --

6 MS. MEYERS: Yeah, this is Karen with Rheem,

7 and I think that's the whole commercial market. I

8 don't know what a standard unit is. It's like we --

9 our program is called Design Star Professional, and

10 it's where the engineer puts in the conditions of the

11 building, and the unit's almost selected for you.

12 So it kind of goes back to the whole thing,

13 and when it comes to commercial, there's not -- you

14 know, it's all just so design-specific that I don't

15 know how you come up with the standard units.

16 MR. AMRANE: Okay. Karim Amrane, AHRI. But

17 at the same time, Karen, and for the other

18 manufacturers, you rate a product to meet the minimum

19 federal standard. What I that product that you rate

20 to meet the minimum federal standard? And that is

21 what they was looking, is really what is that --

22 MS. HOOTMAN: Yeah. I think --
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1 MR. AMRANE: I mean, we do tests as AHRI as

2 well, and you give us a unit to test. What is -- so

3 that unit has a fan in it, and that's what DOE is

4 looking for. We need to --

5 MS. ARMSTRONG: Yeah, I mean, we need to

6 understand -- if you're asking us -- if you're telling

7 me that there's -- you know, everything is design8 specific and there is no such thing as standard, then

9 this all goes off the table, right, because you're

10 asking us to consider and define, basically, what is a

11 standard unit through what's in and what's out with

12 the test procedure and what's in and what's out with

13 enforcement. So what we're trying to understand is

14 what does that mean? What does a standard unit mean,

15 and how can someone that is not the manufacturer tell?

16 MS. HOOTMAN: This is Jill from Trane. I

17 think the standard unit, we would say, is the one that

18 is able to be tested at the test procedure, so

19 therefore we're selecting the motor and sheaves and

20 pulleys, et cetera, that will achieve that static for

21 that test procedure.

22 MR. KOJAK: I've got a -- this is Mike Kojak
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1 with UL -- a question for the OEMs. If -- for the

2 standard model -- because we're talking about

3 condenser fans, you know, that's zero external static

4 for outdoor. Wouldn't it be the minimum horsepower

5 motor always for the standard, and then if there was

6 ducting that was going to go on the condenser portion,

7 then you would use the options above that for the

8 static?

9 So wouldn't it be -- if it's free air

10 discharge, it would be the minimum size motor, because

11 I wouldn't think you guys would want to give bigger

12 motors away for free, so I would think it would be --

13 as long as it's external static, it should be the

14 minimum motor size.

15 MR. WHITWELL: That's -- Bob Whitwell from

16 Carrier. That's right. On the condenser fan, that's

17 -- or condenser fan motor, that's exactly right. It's

18 just that in our literature, it's not clear which is

19 the smallest motor for a particular model; right?

20 MR. KOJAK: Okay.

21 MR. WHITWELL: So I think that's where the -

22 - that's where the -- where DOE could be struggling a
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1 bit. But if we were to include that as part of the

2 certification, whether it's in, you know, the

3 additional instructions for testing it or part of the

4 certification input, then I think that could help.

5 MR. EISNER: I have a question from Rodney

6 Beever. He asks: "Where will units fit that

7 are ducted on the condenser side as standard? The

8 test standards do not provide any details for a ducted

9 condenser."

10 MS. HOOTMAN: That's correct.

11 MR. WHITWELL: Right. It's zero external

12 static.

13 MS. ARMSTRONG: That's why we're having the

14 discussion.

15 COURT REPORTER: Microphone?

16 MS. ARMSTRONG: Sorry. That's why we're

17 having the discussion.

18 MR. CYMBALSKY: So my question -- John

19 Cymbalsky, DOE. How many -- how many do you actually

20 ship with the standard motor? It sounds to me that

21 everything being installed doesn't have the standard

22 motor, unless I'm just missing the conversation
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1 completely. So I keep going back to I think about a

2 car, and if I order the V8, the yellow sticker's not

3 going to say 24 on it, it'll say 20 for the EPA

4 mileage.

5 And so I know this is different, and I know

6 I don't get all the intricacies here, but you could

7 see where -- this is where I'm trying to come from, is

8 what -- if we were going to have a label on these

9 things, and I'm not saying we are, but if there was, I

10 mean, you know, I just see this -- you know, you make

11 the thing, and under the test procedure, it gets a 10.

12 Oh, but, wait a minute, nobody uses that motor. We

13 always put this motor in, so it's really a 9, or it's

14 -- whatever the number is. I don't know.

15 So I guess I'm just trying to get a sense

16 for how much is, you know -- how much of this market

17 is actually nonstandard, with respect just to the

18 motor part of it, not everything else going on?

19 MR. WHITWELL: Bob Whitwell from Carrier.

20 On the condenser motor, the majority are non-ducted.

21 Okay? So I think, you know, on the condenser motor,

22 we can say that for sure. On the evaporator motor,
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1 then it may be a different picture.

2 MS. HOOTMAN: Yeah. On the evaporator --

3 this is Jill from Trane. On the evaporator motor, it

4 is -- I totally agree with Bob. Ninety-nine percent

5 of the condenser fan motors are the standard condenser

6 fan motors. I mean, it's a pretty rare option for

7 this ducting. But on evaporative fan motors, in what

8 I would classify as light commercial, 20 tons and

9 less, majority are standard motors, same ones. And

10 what I consider 20 tons and up, and in a lot of our

11 cases, that means way above what DOE is testing, same

12 product family, it is a customer-provided static, so

13 it's -- there are like three kind of -- three kind of

14 core sizes in each kind of cabinet, and it's customer15 provided static.

16 There is -- every single one of those units

17 going down the line have a division sheave and motor

18 on them so that they are customized for their static

19 performance, just like they said, coming in through a

20 selection program, here's what my building has. Fine.

21 We will pick it for you. You will not have to throw

22 away anything in the field, because otherwise what was
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1 happening, we were sending out a standard motor with

2 sheaves and drives, and they were having to pick their

3 own sheaves and drives in the field from a kit and

4 from other ways and throwing out a bunch of stuff. So

5 that's what the customer can't stand -- and sometimes

6 even throwing away motors half the time. So they

7 can't stand the fact that there was that.

8 So now, you know, what our solution is in

9 the industry is we're customizing it for them, and it

10 tends to be in the upper sizes. I'm not saying it

11 doesn't happen in some overlap in some of the smaller,

12 but it tends to be more in that upper sizes.

13 And what we're doing right now for AHRI

14 certification is we are picking it so that it hits

15 that static. It is -- tends to be the lower

16 horsepower motor for that particular product family,

17 because in order to hit that static, it's -- or hit

18 that test static, that's what you've got to do.

19 I can't give you a number, what that is,

20 John. I really don't.

21 MR. EISNER: Mike.

22 MR. RIVEST: Beyond the selection of the
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1 smaller motor, are there other manufacturer-installed

2 accessories that would need to be ordered at -- with

3 the, quote, base unit to be able to test it? So, for

4 example, are there ways of varying the speed?

5 MS. HOOTMAN: This is Jill from Trane.

6 Mike, what it pretty much is, is two or three

7 different actual digits in the model number.

8 MR. RIVEST: Uh-huh.

9 MS. HOOTMAN: So one is horsepower, and then

10 second or third or fourth digit is explaining whether

11 they need speed control, whether they need VFDs, you

12 know, all those various -- so there's another whole

13 selection for that. What -- there's another -- a

14 third selection for what kind of --

15 MR. RIVEST: Right. I understand, but what

16 I mean is let's say we want to test a unit and you're

17 not involved with that selection. And I assume it's,

18 you know, a third-party manufacturer here. How --

19 would the spec sheets provided to DOE with the

20 certification program include all the nomenclature,

21 and that would be required for us to put that unit on

22 a test bed and get the static and the airflow that we
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1 need to hit your levels?

2 MS. HOOTMAN: So you're saying like when

3 we're providing the data, what -- however we're going

4 to provide it, somehow we're saying what that exact

5 model number is and we've configured it through these

6 systems and said what that is?

7 MR. RIVEST: That would help.

8 MS. HOOTMAN: It's a possibility.

9 MR. RIVEST: It doesn't have to be --

10 MS. HOOTMAN: Yeah.

11 MR. RIVEST: -- like the whole number --

12 MS. HOOTMAN: That's --

13 MR. RIVEST: -- but how do we make sure it's

14 configured properly and we didn't --

15 MS. HOOTMAN: Right.

16 MR. RIVEST: -- overlook anything?

17 MS. HOOTMAN: That's a possibility. Because

18 otherwise you are -- these software systems are

19 usually only available through our salespeople, I

20 would say in the most part, you know, or select

21 customers that you have in some kind of -- so they're

22 not easy tools to get a hold of. They're not readily
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1 available. They're not out on the Internet; you know,

2 those kind of things.

3 MR. RIVEST: Right.

4 MS. HOOTMAN: They have a lot of rules in

5 them around, "Oh, no, you can't pick this. You have

6 to pick that." All the either/ors and ands, you know,

7 are -- there are all the pricing rules and stuff like

8 that in there too.

9 MR. RIVEST: I'm just trying to avoid the

10 situation --

11 MS. HOOTMAN: But, yeah, you're right.

12 MR. RIVEST: -- where we pick the smallest

13 motor --

14 MS. HOOTMAN: We could probably do it --

15 MR. RIVEST: -- and then we're told, "Well,

16 but -- yeah, but you didn't specify this properly.

17 You didn't" --

18 MS. HOOTMAN: Right.

19 MR. RIVEST: -- "have the adjustable gizmo."

20 Yeah. That's all. Thanks.

21 MR. FLY: This is Mark Fly with AAON. Kind

22 of going onto that, I mean, it can also be, if you're
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1 -- especially in the larger size cabinets, the actual

2 fan can change, because a lower static fan might be a

3 larger fan running slower to be optimized for that

4 kind of static, whereas if you're running a high

5 static, you'd want a smaller fan running really fast

6 with a much bigger motor.

7 So, you know, I guess the devil is kind of

8 in the asterisks, which you guys keep referring to,

9 but the problem is if we list it with an asterisk

10 there, what does DOE know how to pick unless it's in

11 some of this auxiliary data that we give you for test

12 unit selection? Because we can't -- if you list the

13 one with the ARI static motor, that unit will not

14 work. You know, that unit will look different in its

15 model strain than one that someone bought for a much

16 higher static. So I don't know how we sort that out

17 with the customers.

18 MR. AMRANE: Karim Amrane, AHRI. I think,

19 talking to the manufacturers here, we have to find a

20 way so that DOE has the information it needs to test

21 as you're doing it today through the AHRI program. So

22 if it needs to be that we will have to provide that
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1 information about the fan, then we'll have to provide

2 that information. That's all. So we'll have to find

3 a way, but I think there's a solution to this -- to

4 this problem.

5 At the same time, John, I know you're

6 concerned about this, but there's no way you can test

7 for all possible --

8 MR. CYMBALSKY: No, I --

9 MR. AMRANE: -- application in the field. I

10 mean, you're getting a range of static pressure.

11 There's no way we can test for everything. So that is

12 why we have a test procedure is to have a standard way

13 of doing it.

14 MR. EISNER: Rodney Beever wants to ask a

15 question. Rodney?

16 MR. BEEVER: Yes. Can you hear me?

17 MS. BARHYDT: Yeah. We can hear you.

18 MR. BEEVER: Can you hear me?

19 MS. BARHYDT: Go ahead.

20 MR. BEEVER: Okay. Actually, there's a

21 couple different situations here, sort of talking

22 around things. You have the situation where, number
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1 one, the test procedure for all the units on the

2 condenser side calls for just zero inches of static

3 pressure. And that's fine if you have a prop unit

4 sitting outside.

5 To the one point, if you now move that unit

6 inside and you're going to duct that with a prop fan,

7 then, yes, you have to consider a motor change and

8 possibly a fan change. In some cases, people have

9 actually changed the type of air movement, from a prop

10 fan to a centrifugal, which is going to take a lot

11 more horsepower.

12 The one part of all this that has not come

13 up anywhere, and it's been a big frustration for us as

14 a manufacturer, is that we have equipment that our

15 condensers are ducted all the time. In fact, Carrier

16 has the 50 AH model. And there is no test standard to

17 cover these type products. So for us to reach any

18 efficiency level, the units grow so large they become

19 impractical, and you just can't do it.

20 So there are several questions here that

21 have not been addressed in your discussion. A big

22 question is where do the units fit in to what category
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1 when they are ducted on the condenser side as a

2 standard?

3 MS. BARHYDT: Can you restate that one more

4 time, just making clear whether, when you say

5 "standard," whether you're referring to the efficiency

6 standard, the performance level, or if you're

7 referring to the test procedure standard?

8 MR. BEEVER: Yes to all three. The test

9 procedures specify no external static pressure value

10 for the testing. However, when you move to any type

11 of indoor condensing section, whether it have a prop

12 fan or a centrifugal fan, there should be some

13 specification for external static; i.e., the test

14 standard needs to be -- to be changed.

15 The problem is that, you know, we

16 manufacture units -- and Carrier has the 50 AH unit.

17 I'm not sure who else has other units out there --

18 that are made as standard with indoor-ducted

19 condensing sections that use centrifugal fans. For us

20 to achieve a 13 SEER, let's say, on our units, the --

21 it becomes an almost impossible task. It can be done,

22 but the unit sizes grow more than double in order to
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1 get there.

2 So the problem is that there is no category

3 for these units that are built as standard with a

4 ducted condensing section. So it's one thing to have

5 an option, but you need to also have a test procedure

6 that covers it and also a category for those units

7 that are, in some cases, like in Europe, referred to

8 as double-ducted.

9 MR. WHITWELL: This is Bob Whitwell from

10 Carrier. Since he mentioned Carrier product here,

11 that product, we test it with zero static -- external

12 static, so we just test it with the -- with the motor

13 at zero static on the outdoor side.

14 MR. BEEVER: Yes, but there's also

15 statements that say that products should not be tested

16 in ways in which they will not be installed or

17 utilized. And these units are never installed or

18 utilized with zero external static.

19 MR. CYMBALSKY: We're taking good notes,

20 Rodney.

21 MR. STARR: This is Louis Starr with NEEA.

22 It seems like they could use maybe a pretty typical
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1 external static pressure, which I'm guessing might be

2 like a half-inch, something you do in furnaces. Is

3 there a possibility of doing something like that for a

4 ducted one? I'm assuming, you know, the range of what

5 external static pressures are kind of in a fixed

6 range, so perhaps doing something like that might make

7 sense.

8 MR. BEEVER: There needs to be some

9 provision because the -- those products that are

10 ducted on the condenser side are fighting an uphill

11 battle in order to be on an equal playing field.

12 MR. AMRANE: This is Karim Amrane with AHRI.

13 I think a solution to your -- to your issue could be

14 in a waiver from the test procedure, if it's not

15 addressed in the test procedure, but that's how you

16 should be addressing it.

17 MR. BEEVER: We tried that, and DOE denied

18 that to three different companies, that they don't

19 recognize the double-ducted arrangement. We've been

20 down that path.

21 MS. ARMSTRONG: Can you remind me which

22 company you're with?
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1 MR. BEEVER: This is United Cool Air. And

2 we even met with DOE on this. So it's been a very

3 frustrating couple of years because we can't find a

4 way of certifying or fitting in any place where we

5 feel that we're fully meeting the law. We think we're

6 meeting the intent of the law, but it doesn't fit.

7 There's too many other questions.

8 MS. ARMSTRONG: Right. So this is Ashley.

9 I think I've met with you before.

10 MR. BEEVER: Yes. Uh-huh.

11 MS. ARMSTRONG: Yeah. So I can say with a

12 hundred percent certainty, DOE did not deny a waiver

13 request because -- purely because a unit needed to be

14 ducted from the outdoor side. We can work through

15 that. So I just want to clarify that. We're not

16 denying a waiver request specifically for that issue.

17 There were a variety of issues that needed to be dealt

18 with to work through. We can still work with you on

19 that process if that's what you are seeking.

20 MR. BEEVER: Well, we did get denied for our

21 request for a waiver, but I think what we're looking

22 for here is underneath this category, whether or not a
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1 special classification can be created to cover these

2 type of products. Now, granted, it's a very, very

3 small percentage of the overall market. I mean,

4 you've got, you know, people that, you know, with all

5 their other commercial products, are cranking out

6 hundreds of units a week. You know, we're not doing

7 that and never will. You know, it's a niche-type

8 product, but there's no standard or definition that

9 covers it.

10 MS. ARMSTRONG: So just to clarify a couple

11 things, one is I think there's a lot of things to

12 consider here. DOE doesn't have a position,

13 obviously, but we welcome additional input from you

14 guys, and we are going to need additional input from

15 you guys.

16 To answer the point on the phone, I mean,

17 part of it's going to come down to whether you also

18 offer a standard option, and as Bob pointed out, what

19 Carrier does is tests without -- non-ducted at zero

20 static.

21 And that's going to be -- you know, for DOE

22 to consider something like that, we wouldn't just
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1 create a separate class and say, "You're not covered

2 or subject to standard." We'd say, "We will test in

3 this configuration, and the rating needs to be based

4 on this configuration, and that's what needs to meet

5 the standards."

6 You know, to the extent that excludes, you

7 know, testing with additional ducting or multiple

8 statics or higher statics from the condenser, then

9 that's something we could consider. But if you don't

10 have a standard option, then you would need to come

11 get a waiver to be able to test at a different static

12 and with a different ducting configuration.

13 MR. BEEVER: Well, it goes beyond that, and,

14 you know, we've written it up once --

15 MS. ARMSTRONG: And the standards are --

16 MR. BEEVER: -- and we'll do it again.

17 MS. ARMSTRONG: -- congressional, so nothing

18 we can do there.

19 MR. BEEVER: Yeah. Okay. But, you know --

20 MS. ARMSTRONG: I mean, that --

21 MR. BEEVER: -- I will write it all up

22 again.
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1 MS. ARMSTRONG: -- that was our conversation

2 previously.

3 MR. BEEVER: Yeah. Yeah. But we still

4 never got any resolution. So I will have to write

5 this all up again and submit it.

6 MR. EISNER: All right. Should we -- do we

7 want to put this off as a short --

8 MR. CYMBALSKY: That's not an issue.

9 MR. EISNER: No, no, I mean, the discussion

10 on this issue, do we want to wait for more information

11 to come back, or do we want to talk about this after

12 lunch?

13 MR. CYMBALSKY: I think, Karim, if you could

14 round up the troops on (inaudible).

15 MR. EISNER: He can settle it over lunch.

16 Should we give you an extra ten minutes? All right.

17 Why don't we come back --

18 MR. CYMBALSKY: It'll be the last minute

19 that's important.

20 MR. EISNER: Come back at two.

21 (Whereupon, a lunch recess was taken.)

22 MR. EISNER: All right, can we get going?
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1 MR. AMRANE: Karim Amrane, AHRI. On

2 the issue of the condenser fan motor, as well as the

3 evaporator fan -- I mean, the same issue, I think one

4 solution could be for manufacturer to specify the fan

5 when they certify the product with DOE. And say,

6 well, this is the fan that is used for the

7 application, that can be tested or going to test

8 procedure. And that could be a way for you to test

9 the appropriate unit. So that's a

10 --

11 MR. CYMBALSKY: I have an opinion on this

12 one. So, again, it goes back to my basic issue of,

13 okay, so you specified the fan that goes with the one

14 that gets tested. But if that one's never the one

15 that goes out in the field, but you're going to make

16 representations that all the ones that have maybe an

17 oversized fan that are maybe losing an entire EER from

18 the rating. But that's the problem I have with this.

19 So I appreciate you're trying to say, okay, this is

20 the combination that'll work for the test. The

21 problem is when it gets in the field, we don't know --

22 the customer doesn't know what the EER is that he got
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1 with that fan or motor inside the unit.

2 MR. AMRANE: Karim Amrane, AHRI. I don't

3 think that's exactly true. I think the customer will

4 know exactly what he's getting, because again, those

5 units are spec'd. They're not -- I mean, it's not

6 like you and me buying the unit; it's done through an

7 engineering firm and it's spec'd that way. So they

8 know exactly what they are getting.

9 MR. DOPPEL: Paul Doppel with Mitsubishi. I

10 think the decision is either you're going to get a

11 high efficiency unit or a standard efficiency. And

12 then everything else that you get is to meet the

13 specifications of that building. So that's the

14 efficiency decision: standard efficiency or high

15 efficiency. Then everything else falls into place.

16 And so, you know, it's just to meet the needs of the

17 building, that's the important criteria.

18 MR. CYMBALSKY: Right, so if you spec the

19 unit to a ten, let's say that's the standard, but then

20 you throw in this oversized motor, what happens to the

21 EER normally? Everything else equal, what will

22 happen?
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1 MR. DOPPEL: This is Paul Doppel. You know,

2 the important thing, and we keep, you know, you keep

3 wanting to push us into this installed efficiency.

4 And this is a test room efficiency. That's all this

5 was set up as test room efficiency with

6 characteristics that would be, you know, if there's a

7 standard building configuration that they've set up.

8 And so that's the primary criteria. And, you know, we

9 just have to keep that line between installed and

10 what's in the test room.

11 MR. WHITWELL: Yeah. Bob Whitwell from

12 Carrier. If I could just add to that.

13 So one thing we have to keep in mind that

14 the test procedure here is, at least when we're

15 talking about the condenser motor, it's zero static,

16 right, there's no static requirement in the test

17 procedure for the outdoor, because that's -- and

18 that's 99 percent of the applications are going to be

19 that way. So that's the test EE efficiency is with

20 zero external static on the outdoor. And then the

21 customer, if he has an application where he has a

22 ducted outdoor, he needs to duct the outdoor air; he
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1 will go into the literature, he'll pick the higher

2 power fan motor, and he'll be able to see in there

3 based on the fan performance tables what the impact is

4 going to be on the efficiency of his product. So he

5 will be able to determine what the efficiency impact

6 of that is from that data that's provided by the

7 manufacturer.

8 MR. CYMBALSKY: But all else equal, same

9 test procedure, same everything, but the only thing

10 different is swapping out that component. The

11 consumer, if you were designing the original one to a

12 ten, the consumer's going to get less than a ten in

13 the test procedure conditions.

14 MR. WHITWELL: If he's designing for -- if

15 he's picking a motor that's intended to be used in a

16 ducted application where he needs more power to get

17 the right air flow over the condenser coil, yes, it

18 would be; it's going to draw more power. But if he

19 doesn't, if he applies the, let's say standard motor

20 in that case, he's not going to get the right air flow

21 over the condenser. So it will also -- it'll probably

22 perform less efficiently then than it would when he
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1 puts the right fan motor on and gets the right air

2 flow.

3 MS. ARMSTRONG: I mean --

4 MS. MEYERS: This is Karen with Rheem. You

5 know, we've agreed to not test --

6 MS. ARMSTRONG: The issue isn't this one.

7 MS. MEYERS: -- some things that actually

8 give us a positive impact compared to efficiency

9 installed. But if it gives us -- if it might be a

10 slight negative to efficiency, then it's not like

11 we're being fair here. Because there's a lot of

12 things that actually improve the installed efficiency.

13 And we've agreed, so it's, you know, we're not going

14 both ways here.

15 MR. CYMBALSKY: Right. And I think we've

16 done the same; we've give lots of things that are

17 negative from what I can tell that we've been through

18 so far. It's just this one in particular I take pause.

19 MS. ARMSTRONG: I don't think it's -- so

20 it's not the condenser fan motor that's so much at

21 issue. I mean that's --

22 MR. WHITWELL: That's what we're talking
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1 about, that's why it's a --

2 MS. ARMSTRONG: I mean, we're kind of

3 mixing, right. And that was my fault at the

4 beginning. I don't think the condenser fan motor is

5 what the Department has an issue with. Zero static

6 non-ducted, I mean the test procedure specifies that.

7 Otherwise, you'll be required to get a waiver. It's

8 not that one, it's the other motor. I mean that's

9 really what it comes down to, that's where we're left.

10 MR. WHITWELL: The other, meaning the

11 evaporator side?

12 MS. ARMSTRONG: The evaporator side.

13 MR. WHITWELL: But remember, I mean part of

14 the reasons -- Bob Whitwell from Carrier again -- I

15 mean, one of the reasons -- there's two reasons why

16 people would specify a higher powered motor for the

17 evaporator. One is because they have an application

18 that has longer, more duct work and requires that in

19 order to operate against the duct work. Another

20 reason is where they have options on the unit, and

21 they could be options that provide more utility to the

22 customer and those options cause internal -- decrease
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1 the internal static pressure, and so they need the

2 higher static motor when a certain combination of

3 options are included.

4 MS. ARMSTRONG: Right. Paul, to your point

5 earlier about this is a test room, you know, test

6 procedure and test room efficiency. I don't think the

7 Department disagrees with that. But it should be a

8 test room efficiency that's somewhat representative of

9 installed conditions.

10 MR. DOPPEL: It is.

11 MS. ARMSTRONG: And so if we're getting to

12 the point where --

13 MR. DOPPEL: It is.

14 MS. ARMSTRONG: -- the majority of motors, I

15 realize, you know, there's a differentiation maybe

16 between less than 20 and above 20, but if you're

17 telling me the majority are motors for certain types

18 of equipment or certain ranges are not the standard

19 motor, they're really these higher oversized motors,

20 then that speaks to the fact that the static and the

21 test procedure is not representative of installed

22 conditions.
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1 MR. DOPPEL: But --

2 MS. ARMSTRONG: And that's the fundamental

3 issue.

4 MR. DOPPEL: Yeah. Paul Doppel, Mitsubishi.

5 You know, you have to go back to the foundation of the

6 test standard. And what was done was there was a

7 sample building was set up. And I don't remember the

8 dimensions, but there's like specific duct work. And,

9 you know, I've got into this when we had a meeting at

10 Jill Hootman's place in Nashville with Dick Lore to

11 talk about VRF line links compared to external static

12 pressure. And so we negotiated to try to come up

13 with, you know, what was equitable for the VRF line

14 links compared to the -- or the duct work that was on

15 the unitary systems. So the test standard is set up

16 for a specific building.

17 MS. ARMSTRONG: Absolutely.

18 MR. DOPPEL: And what you're trying to do is

19 push it over into installed efficiency. And that's --

20 MS. ARMSTRONG: I don't think that's true.

21 MR. DOPPEL: -- totally. That's totally.

22 MS. ARMSTRONG: I don't think anyone's
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1 trying to do that. I think what John's trying to make

2 a point is, is that standard buildings should be

3 representative -- I realize standard means it's not

4 representative of anything. But to the extent

5 possible, it should be representative somewhat of

6 field conditions. Our statute requires that. Sorry,

7 I mean, that's --

8 MR. DOPPEL: Well, that was the original

9 intent of the standard.

10 MS. ARMSTRONG: I get that. But all these

11 exclusions seem to also bring up the fact that maybe

12 that's not the case anymore. And that's what the

13 Department's challenge is, right; we're trying to

14 understand, okay, what is really standard, what is

15 really typical, and make that distinction. It's not

16 that we're trying to move you to an installed

17 efficiency, or move you to rating every single vast

18 combination there is out there. But we need to be

19 able to understand what is standard. And if standard

20 is something that is never sold, or is never

21 representative of anything, is that okay? And that's

22 something the Department has to answer.
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1 MR. DOPPEL: Well, I think what you would be

2 pushing the manufactures to, is that the manufacturers

3 would go back to building standard units, and then the

4 building, folks in the building, the contractors would

5 end up having to put all that stuff in. So the end

6 result is the same. You know, you don't have a ten

7 EER system anymore. But it's not because the

8 manufacturer did something; it's because of the guy in

9 the field. And there are so many things that are done

10 in the field that change the efficiency of the system.

11 MS. ARMSTRONG: Sure.

12 MR. DOPPEL: You know, so you're almost

13 trying to hold the manufacturers to making sure that

14 the installed efficiency meets the minimum. And

15 that's not the intent of the test standard.

16 MS. ARMSTRONG: I don't know that -- I think

17 we're trying to understand, you know, every piece of -

18 - well, those units distributed in commerce are

19 supposed to meet the standard. And we're trying --

20 you're asking the Department to consider certain

21 exclusions to that. And we're trying to understand

22 what the breadth of those exclusions would be.
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1 MR. FLY: This is Mark Fly with AAON. If

2 we're going to go back and redefine rather than a

3 quarter inch, say one inch of static is the

4 appropriate level that seems to be the average of how

5 they all get applied, then the number has to change.

6 You know, then 13 SEER isn't 13 SEER anymore.

7 MS. ARMSTRONG: Understand.

8 MR. FLY: You know, so all those numbers go

9 down. And nobody wants to go down.

10 MS. ARMSTRONG: I understand.

11 MR. FLY: You know, we all --

12 MS. ARMSTRONG: I understand. I'm not

13 saying -- that's probably the long term solution, to

14 evaluate the test procedure to see if there's a need

15 for things to change.

16 MR. FLY: But if you put a 20 horsepower

17 motor in a unit that needs a 2 horsepower motor to run

18 efficiently, you're so far off the efficiency curve

19 during that test in a situation where it'll never

20 apply; it's going to be overly burdensome to the

21 rating of that piece of equipment. So that's I think

22 the manufacturer's point.
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1 MS. ARMSTRONG: Right.

2 MR. THARP: This is Rusty Tharpe with

3 Goodman. I'll throw in that for my company, the light

4 commercial products that we make -- actually the

5 higher static motors is more the exception, is

6 definitely the exception more than that rule. So it

7 is not all manufacturers. It's not a high percentage

8 in the smaller tonnage range. When you get to the

9 bigger tonnage stuff a much higher percentage is the

10 high static motors or motor options. But when you're

11 talking, I think what we call light commercial or

12 small and maybe large, small and large range, the

13 smaller you go, the higher the percentage is of more

14 of a standard unit being typical.

15 MS. ARMSTRONG: And so you're -- I think

16 collectively, Karim, your guys' proposal is to certify

17 the motor and/or motor drive system that is needed to

18 meet the rate of conditions, that you use to certify

19 your rate of conditions.

20 MR. AMRANE: That can be tested according to

21 test procedure, yes.

22 MS. ARMSTRONG: Well, they can all be tested
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1 according to the test procedure, but --

2 MR. AMRANE: No, the test procedure today

3 does not account for a high. The static pressure is

4 specified in the test procedure.

5 MS. ARMSTRONG: Well, the minimum static is

6 specified. You can go higher.

7 MR. WHITWELL: No, there's a minus zero plus

8 point 05. The latest version of the standard has a

9 minus zero plus point 05 tolerance on the 340/360.

10 The AHRI test procedure.

11 MR. HON: Question: is that the test

12 procedure specified in the DOE Code?

13 MS. ARMSTRONG: I don't know which version

14 he's referencing exactly. But the AHRI test

15 procedures, 340/360 is the one incorporated by

16 reference. I just don't know if it's that specific

17 version.

18 MR. WHITWELL: Yeah, it's 2007 with addendum

19 A and B, Karim?

20 MR. AMRANE: Yep. DOE has --

21 MS. ARMSTRONG: We have '07, but no

22 addendums.
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1 MR. SACHS: Ashley?

2 MS. ARMSTRONG: Yeah.

3 MR. SACHS: Harvey Sachs. Just an

4 underlying question with reference to your comment on

5 the long term evolution of the rating method. How

6 will we get to the point that we feel we have a good

7 enough understanding of installed ESP to do that

8 calibration? I'm really asking John that question,

9 because it verges into things that are above our pay

10 grade. But it's a serious question that seems like

11 we're talking about a dream, given budget priorities.

12 MS. ARMSTRONG: Yeah. I mean, to me, that

13 is an issue for another day. I mean, that is

14 something -- as Mark pointed out, the static, and the

15 standards, and the levels are all intertwined there.

16 So if it's something the Department was going to

17 reconsider in a test procedure rulemaking, it would be

18 something we would consider at the same time we were

19 doing a standard rulemaking.

20 MR. SACHS: Again, this is Harvey. I'm not

21 sure exactly how close the tracking is, because

22 there's some other options with commercial equipment.
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1 But just a reminder that sensible heat ratio is

2 dependent upon that, will vary with that gap between

3 the test static and the install static. This is not a

4 trivial matter to many people.

5 MS. ARMSTRONG: No, not at all. Well, the

6 easy one, condenser fan motors, I think there's no

7 issue. I think from the Department's perspective, we

8 have no issue with excluding -- I won't say excluding

9 wholesale. You would have to have a standard option

10 available to test, or test the non-ducted version at

11 zero static. Just because if all your product

12 offering is ducted, you're not excluded from the

13 regulations wholesale.

14 MR. SACHS: Ashley, this is Harvey again. I

15 know nothing about this class of air cooled ducted

16 condenser units. But somehow I'm reminded of the

17 waiver and eventually class that went to the

18 residential small diameter high velocity, where the

19 test method specified a high enough external static to

20 prevent loopholing. And I wonder if that sort of

21 thing might be a path for these people.

22 MS. ARMSTRONG: It could be an option.
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1 Yeah, I mean, similarly -- well, right now, the

2 standards in effect are congressional standards. So

3 while we could change the test method, we cannot

4 change the levels. But longer term, that could be a

5 solution, definitely.

6 Okay, we'll move on, because the last issue

7 happens to be oversized motors. So we'll come full

8 circle here by the time we get to it. Steam hydronic

9 heat options.

10 I don't think -- is that the right

11 description? I don't think that's the right

12 description or not. Sorry. We'll fix the

13 description. Assuming that there is multiple -- I

14 think this is just the one that has multiple heat

15 options. Is that correct?

16 MS. HOOTMAN: Yes.

17 MS. ARMSTRONG: And we only wanted to test

18 in a certain opt configuration; is that correct?

19 MR. THARP: No, I think that's different.

20 Rusty Tharp with Goodman. I think what you're

21 referring to, Ashley, is the multiple gas heat

22 options.
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1 MS. ARMSTRONG: Oh, okay.

2 MR. THARP: Or multiple electric heat

3 options. The steam hydronic heat is typically a coil,

4 a round tube plate fin type of coil that's put inside

5 the air path.

6 MR. WHITWELL: Yes, it's in the series with

7 the evaporator.

8 MR. THARP: Yes.

9 MS. ARMSTRONG: And so you just don't --

10 instead of, what was the instead of option?

11 MR. THARP: Well, the option alternate

12 typically here is for heat they can either use

13 electric resistance heat --

14 MS. ARMSTRONG: So you're just proposing to

15 test the electric resistance only, not the hydronic

16 coil.

17 MR. THARP: Correct.

18 MS. ARMSTRONG: Okay, that's fine. We would

19 issue testing guidance that says that. Hot gas

20 reheats the same way. We can issue test procedure

21 guidance or enforcement guidance that we will not test

22 on a hot gas reheat item. But like I said, with all
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1 these there must be some type of standard option

2 available that we can clearly distinguish which ones

3 have and which ones don't.

4 So for the next one, a couple of things.

5 One is for units that have barometric release, powered

6 exhaust, we will issue test procedure guidance, or

7 will consider issuing test procedure guidance that the

8 dampers must be fully sealed for testing. So in other

9 words, those units would be subject. However, if it's

10 something that has powered returned air, so it adds

11 additional power, we would not choose those. That's

12 how we are distinguishing between them, with some type

13 of powered exhaust.

14 MR. EISNER: Any issues or concerns?

15 MR. THARP: Rusty Tharp with Goodman. So

16 DOE would not order a special unit with a powered

17 exhaust. I guess the concern is that there's an

18 additional device that could cause some additional

19 resistance over the regular fan, the normal air moving

20 device if the powered exhaust or power return air

21 device is present in the system. And again, these are

22 usually custom units. So if you're going to get
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1 something with powered exhaust, power deterrence, it's

2 normally going to be custom ordered anyway. You're

3 not going to find too many of these off the shelf.

4 MS. ARMSTRONG: Our intent was to

5 differentiate between those that had like an

6 additional power source, versus those that just use

7 dampers. So in other words, dampers that you could

8 seal. That was the idea. I don't know if there is a

9 differentiation factor.

10 MS. HOOTMAN: This is Jull from Trane.

11 Powered return air is in the airstream. So you can't

12 really seal it off, because it's in the return

13 airstream but causes a resistance.

14 MS. ARMSTRONG: Right. But is there a type

15 of unit that would ever not have powered exhaust, not

16 have powered return air, but would have some type of

17 damper type relief that could require sealing?

18 MS. HOOTMAN: Yes.

19 MS. ARMSTRONG: Those are the two we're

20 trying to distinguish between. So if it has power, it

21 would go in one category versus those that don't have

22 power, and you could just seal the dampers for
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1 testing.

2 MR. JOHNSON: Fine with that. Tom Johnson.

3 I'm totally confused. Okay. Barometric relief, you

4 can close the damper and run the unit on a test.

5 MS. ARMSTRONG: Yep.

6 MR. JOHNSON: I have no issue with that.

7 MS. ARMSTRONG: That's it.

8 MR. JOHNSON: Powered exhaust, I think what

9 I hear you saying, okay, close the damper, seal it

10 off. But make sure the powered exhaust doesn't run

11 during the test. There's a power; there's a fan.

12 MS. ARMSTRONG: I was actually saying not to

13 test powered exhaust or powered return air.

14 MR. JOHNSON: Okay, so you're saying not to

15 test.

16 MS. ARMSTRONG: But barometric relief, we

17 would seal.

18 MR. JOHNSON: Well, okay. Then you

19 categorized them different then.

20 MS. ARMSTRONG: I didn't know the right way

21 to characterize them. But the three, if I would do

22 it, I would do two buckets and then the third one
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1 would be subject two.

2 MR. JOHNSON: Okay.

3 MR. EISNER: Next issue?

4 MS. ARMSTRONG: Yeah. Is that okay? Same

5 thing with fresh air dampers fully sealed, but they

6 would be subject to the program. So we would clarify

7 in the test procedure that the dampers must be sealed.

8 MR. EISNER: Any comments? Everybody's

9 okay? Next issue is high efficiency air filtration.

10 MS. ARMSTRONG: So just like the other

11 filters we've been talking about, standard air filter

12 will need to be defined. We would issue test

13 procedure guidance that the standard air filter be

14 used for testing.

15 MR. EISNER: Everybody okay? Do we want to

16 discuss how it's defined?

17 MS. ARMSTRONG: I think you guys discussed

18 it last time. It has an MERV rating of rate.

19 MR. EISNER: MERV six?

20 MS. ARMSTRONG: Yeah, MERV eight.

21 MR. WHITWELL: The MERV eight is an ASHRAE

22 62.1 requirement, which is not a standard requirement
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1 for all markets. Right?

2 MS. ARMSTRONG: But can your rating be based

3 on that? I mean, is that close enough to standard for

4 all markets that if we're trying to standardize across

5 the board?

6 MR. THARP: Rusty Tharp with Goodman. I'd

7 suggest that perhaps MERV four to MERV six would be

8 the standard.

9 MR. WHITWELL: I think that's closer to what

10 I would say is the standard.

11 MR. HUNT: This is Marshall Hunt, PG.

12 MS. ARMSTRONG: Go ahead.

13 MR. HUNT: Hello.

14 MS. ARMSTRONG: Go ahead.

15 MR. HUNT: I recommend MERV six; that's what

16 we're using out here in California on our building

17 standard. So no unit could get installed unless it

18 was MERV six.

19 MS. ARMSTRONG: Okay. Is MERV six okay with

20 everyone for the purposes of rating?

21 MR. THARP: If you go to Home Depot, and

22 Lowe's, et cetera, MERV four is the standard off the
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1 shelf, typically.

2 MS. ARMSTRONG: Can you buy filters for

3 commercial HVAC at Home Depot and Lowe's?

4 MR. WHITWELL: Yeah.

5 MS. ARMSTRONG: I was wondering.

6 MR. THARP: So that would be our suggestion.

7 MR. SACHS: Harvey Sachs, ACEEE. My memory

8 is that as I capture dirt, my filtration efficiency

9 goes up and my effective MERV rating may or may not go

10 up, but certainly my ESP goes up. So it seems to me

11 that even though this was a lab test, that airing on

12 the side of the MERV six instead of the four is likely

13 to be a little more representative. I don't think

14 it's an enormous penalty when you're testing.

15 MR. THARP: How about if we give you MERV

16 six and you give us static motors?

17 MR. CYMBALSKY: I don't know who MERV is,

18 but I don't like him.

19 MR. SACHS: Will that come with some future

20 draft choices?

21 MR. HUNT: The question would be in

22 California if you rate with the MERV four, what is
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1 your efficiency to meet our standards, do we derate

2 your equipment?

3 MR. THARP: This is Rusty. It goes back to

4 what's a test standard versus an application standard.

5 And that's something that seems as we talk more and

6 more that needs to be discussed at some point.

7 MR. CYMBALSKY: So my thinking is if they

8 were buying it out at Home Depot, that's like

9 something that's being done in the field but not in

10 the test lab. So you would test it at MERV six, right.

11 But once the end user has the unit, I mean, our

12 authority at that point, I could put whatever filter I

13 want in my house, too.

14 MR. THARP: Rusty Tharp. Some of our

15 product I think is shipped without filters at all and

16 we allow the end consumer to put in whatever they

17 choose. So some manufacturers choose to do that also.

18 So it's up to the end user whether they put in a 4, a

19 12 a 16 or what they put in.

20 MS. BARHYDT: Right. But as we discussed

21 earlier this is supposed to be standardized, so we

22 have to pick a number.
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1 MS. HOOTMAN: And this is Jill from Trane.

2 Marshall, you know, it's conceivable and many people

3 do change out for California only. In other words, we

4 have California only units, just like you have

5 California only cars.

6 MR. HUNT: Thank you, we appreciate it.

7 MR. STARR: This is Louis Starr. The other

8 part, if they're designing in a lot of buildings the

9 62.1 that has the MERV eight, you start to wonder how

10 much -- if they're complying with some of the

11 requirements to 62 that that's carrying through in the

12 codes. So just a thought. I mean, it starts to

13 affect the market share as well.

14 MR. AMRANE: Karim Amrane, AHRI. I mean,

15 this requirement has just been put into 62. So by the

16 time it's going to be adopted we're talking a few

17 years down the road.

18 MR. JOHNSON: Tom Johnson. Just a point of

19 clarification. I know we're talking about unitary

20 stuff here. But when you get to water source heat

21 pump it's a MERV three filter is standard. You don't

22 need the higher six or eight, or something like that.
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1 So same thing.

2 MS. ARMSTRONG: Yeah, we had that for the MP

3 tax.

4 MR. JOHNSON: Okay. I just want to make

5 sure we keep that in mind.

6 MS. ARMSTRONG: We have the MERV three for

7 those.

8 MR. DOPPEL: (Inaudible).

9 MS. ARMSTRONG: What would you have?

10 COURT REPORTER: Microphone?

11 MR. DOPPEL: It's kind of a MERV four. Paul

12 Doppel with Mitsubishi. The VRF non-ducted indoors

13 generally would have a MERV four.

14 MR. EISNER: So what is the suggestion for

15 DOE to do?

16 MR. SACHS: Harvey Sachs. Picking up

17 Karim's suggestion or observation that the MERV six is

18 just now going in, and --

19 MS. BARHYDT: Eight is going.

20 MR. SACHS: Eight, I'm sorry. It seems that

21 six is a conservative number. Because there will be a

22 lot of places through a large fracture of the service
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1 life of the machines that will be made that will be

2 running when MERV eight would be required of new

3 equipment. So we're making a political decision and

4 it seems to me that six is more likely to be

5 representative of the conditions under which this

6 equipment will operate than four. I'd also note that

7 in my experience most of the commercial water source

8 stuff is going in with pretty limited duct runs. It's

9 basically its own equipment. So it doesn't have quite

10 the same problems as a lot of the call it multi-room

11 or multi-zone air source commercial stuff. So I don't

12 think the -- my instinct is that the MERV three for

13 water source is probably not a good comparison.

14 MR. MYERS: This is Frank Myers with PVI.

15 I'm curious as to what most manufacturers use today in

16 terms of the filter that they have in during their

17 testing. Because it seems to me we could very easily

18 get into a situation where the filter is increasing

19 the stringency of the test. And the levels were set

20 with whatever was at the day that it was set. And we

21 should be remembering that as we're trying to pick a

22 filter here that may require an increased efficiency.
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1 MS. ARMSTRONG: Technically, you're asking

2 us to include all these exclusions to levels that were

3 already set.

4 MR. MYERS: This is Frank Myers, PVI again.

5 I understand that, Ashley. I was just curious as to

6 what the manufacturers have been testing and rating

7 their equipment to, what filtration level, so if we're

8 changing something we know what we're changing from.

9 MS. ARMSTRONG: I don't know.

10 MS. HOOTMAN: This is Jill Hootman from

11 Trane.

12 MR. AMRANE: It's probably from the spec, I

13 would guess.

14 MS. HOOTMAN: Over this product range, which

15 ranges from 3 to 63-tons the standard filter can be

16 anything from a MERV four to a MERV eight.

17 MR. SACHS: Six.

18 MS. HOOTMAN: So my point is that the

19 smaller units, on the smaller tonnages with a whole

20 lot less duct work, it's very common to have four.

21 Than it is for a 63-ton unit that will have a lot more

22 duct work, a lot more static, and you'll commonly put
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1 an eight in for the standard filter.

2 MR. DOPPEL: So you're proposing a tonnage

3 break between four and six?

4 MS. HOOTMAN: No. Well, I mean, I don't

5 mind, myself; I don't mind compromising at six.

6 MR. CYMBALSKY: How much more costly is it

7 on average? I know it's going to range by the size.

8 But a six versus a four dollar wise for the filter

9 itself?

10 MS. HOOTMAN: Can we talk about cost here?

11 MS. MEYERS: No, we can't talk about that.

12 MR. CYMBALSKY: I mean, are we talking like

13 thousands, are we talking hundreds, tens?

14 MS. HOOTMAN: At the volume we're buying

15 them, yes, you're in thousands.

16 MS. ARMSTRONG: No, I mean, if you just went

17 to Lowe's.

18 MR. CYMBALSKY: No, for either. If I went

19 to Lowe's.

20 MS. ARMSTRONG: As a consumer.

21 MR. CYMBALSKY: I'm sorry, if I went to just

22 buy it.
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1 MS. ARMSTRONG: He's just talking about if

2 you were replacing your filter.

3 MR. CYMBALSKY: Right. If I wanted to buy a

4 four or a six, are we talking few dollars, $10, $20?

5 MS. HOOTMAN: Yeah, they're a few dollars

6 apart.

7 MR. AMRANE: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Just not

8 what you guys buy.

9 MR. EISNER: It sounds to me -- I may be

10 wrong -- that four is going out and eight is coming.

11 Are you going to be continuing to use for many years?

12 MS. HOOTMAN: No. No, no, no, no, no, no.

13 No, four and eight, they're not going out. This is

14 all dependent on the size, physical size of the unit

15 and what the typical application is, and how much duct

16 work is attached to it. So what we put in standard

17 for a small unit is something totally different than

18 we'll put for the big 63-ton that's as big as this

19 room.

20 MR. EISNER: So should the standard be

21 broken down then?

22 MS. HOOTMAN: But to compromise at six is a
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1 compromise and we would have to change some of the

2 small units to have that six in it.

3 MR. EISNER: And there's no way to describe

4 the units that get the four, versus the six, versus

5 the eight, so the standard could have three different

6 levels?

7 MS. ARMSTRONG: Is it worth it I think is

8 more the issue? I mean, that just adds a little

9 complexity.

10 MS. HOOTMAN: Is it worth it? That's a very

11 detailed explanation for you guys to put in there.

12 And I don't know --

13 MS. ARMSTRONG: Yeah. So I mean, how far

14 off are we on compromising on six?

15 MR. EISNER: Does anybody oppose to four --

16 I mean to six? Nobody in the room is opposed going

17 with six?

18 MS. ARMSTRONG: For non-VRF, non-P tech,

19 non- water source.

20 MR. DOPPEL: Paul Doppel with Mitsubishi. I

21 just think the manufacturers ought to take into

22 account impact on testing, changing them.
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1 MS. ARMSTRONG: On AEDM?

2 MR. DOPPEL: Four to six.

3 MS. HOOTMAN: Yeah, I understand, because I

4 was just speaking for myself.

5 MR. DOPPEL: Yeah, because that, you know,

6 every little bit, this is one place, you know, and get

7 another place to change, and then before you know it

8 you're five percent is gone.

9 MS. MEYERS: This is Karen Meyers with

10 Rheem. So the change from a four to six would be

11 significant for my company, because we primarily build

12 just only light commercial units. So for my company,

13 this would have a direct impact on every unit that we

14 build. So I'm not saying that we might not agree to

15 go to six, but I certainly can't agree to it right

16 now. I'll have to go back and see what the actual

17 impact is, you know, financially for our units. So,

18 you know, I'm not like Jill who builds a product all

19 the way up to 63-tons. So, you know, this will affect

20 every commercial unit that we build if we go to six.

21 MS. ARMSTRONG: But it's just for your

22 ratings; right? I mean, we're not saying you have to
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1 ship all with a four, or ship all with a six, or ship

2 with -- you ship with what you want; right? I mean,

3 that's just -- if we pick one for verification we will

4 test with a six. Your rating should be based with a

5 six. So the output of your AEDM, assuming you have

6 enough data to substantiate one, would be run with a

7 six.

8 MS. MEYERS: What's the data?

9 MS. ARMSTRONG: I'm not saying it's

10 inconsequential, et cetera, et cetera, from a

11 financial standpoint. But what I am saying is that

12 that's what we're talking about here.

13 MS. MEYERS: But typically, a unit that has

14 high efficiency air filtration on hit also has several

15 other options with it. So that's where I get a

16 little, you know, if it --

17 MS. ARMSTRONG: Well, we're not testing one

18 with high efficiency air filtration. We're proposing

19 to exclude those and just stay standardizing they need

20 to be a six.

21 MR. AMRANE: Karim Amrane, AHRI. If I may,

22 I think what we're trying to say is that some units
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1 come with a four or come with a six.

2 MS. ARMSTRONG: Yeah.

3 MR. AMRANE: And in each particular case, I

4 think we need to understand better the implication of

5 what it would be to switch to a six, which I don't

6 think that people can probably answer today.

7 MS. ARMSTRONG: Okay.

8 MR. STEM: Mike Stem with Intertek. From a

9 test lab perspective, if it doesn't ship with a filter

10 then we have a penalty, a static penalty that we apply

11 and we test with no filter. So you're talking about

12 changing the test procedure totally?

13 MS. ARMSTRONG: Um-hum.

14 MR. STEM: So we would have to go out and

15 purchase whatever filters would go for each unit with

16 each test?

17 MS. ARMSTRONG: They would be tested with a

18 six, if that's what we agree to.

19 MR. STEM: Okay.

20 MS. ARMSTRONG: Standardize around, yes.

21 They should come shipped with the unit. For

22 verification purposes at least.
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1 MS. HOOTMAN: When we know that you bought

2 the unit from us. I thought there were times when we

3 don't know that.

4 MS. ARMSTRONG: There's going to be both

5 probably.

6 MS. MEYERS: Are you saying that --

7 MS. ARMSTRONG: We would buy one. We would

8 just buy one at Home Depot or Lowe's, now that I know

9 that I can get them there. With whatever rating we

10 agree upon here.

11 MR. SACHS: I couldn't find one for my 63-

12 ton.

13 MS. ARMSTRONG: I'm pretty sure I can't find

14 a 63-ton at retail anyway, or a test lab to test it

15 with. So I'll be coming to visit Jill anyway. And at

16 that point, I'm pretty sure she can find me a filter.

17 MS. HOOTMAN: And, Harvey, there is like 20

18 20x30s in that unit.

19 MR. EISNER: What I'm hearing is people

20 aren't comfortable with making a decision today; they

21 want to check. Is it okay with everybody if we wait

22 on this one?
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1 Okay.

2 MR. CYMBALSKY: Is this an overnight thing,

3 Karen, or are we talking next set of meetings on that?

4 MS. MEYERS: There's not very many people

5 working this week at Rheem, so I'll try and get you an

6 answer this week.

7 MR. CYMBALSKY: Okay.

8 MS. MEYERS: But it's just dependent up

9 whether I can find the right people to ask.

10 MR. EISNER: Next issue is --

11 MR. THARP: Just real quick, this is Rusty

12 Tharp from Goodman. The term filter is not even

13 mentioned anywhere in AHRI 340/360. So I don't know

14 that we specify with or without for the test

15 procedure. Again, 340/360. I know residential 210/240

16 specs. If it doesn't have a filter then you add point

17 08.

18 MS. ARMSTRONG: Appendix M does specify. We

19 would be specifying in 431.96, or through guidance,

20 depending on which route we take.

21 MR. EISNER: Okay, any other questions or

22 issues? We'll get back on this one. The next one is
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1 hot gas bypass.

2 MS. ARMSTRONG: No issues here. The

3 Department can issue guidance saying that we won't

4 test units with hot gas bypass.

5 MR. EISNER: Everybody okay, I assume.

6 MS. ARMSTRONG: This obviously would be

7 reconsidered if we ever move to some type of part low

8 metric, like EIR. But follow now for what we're

9 dealing with.

10 MR. EISNER: Okay. Sound traps, sound

11 attenuator.

12 MS. ARMSTRONG: No issues. We're fine with

13 testing will not be performed on units with sounds

14 traps. You must have a unit available for testing

15 without them though.

16 MR. EISNER: No problems? Fire, smoke

17 isolation dampers.

18 MS. ARMSTRONG: Same thing, no issue. There

19 must be a unit available without them.

20 MR. EISNER: Again, no concerns, I assume?

21 Next one is extended wall sleeves.

22 MS. ARMSTRONG: So we talked about this a
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1 little bit earlier on the PTAC slides, so we can skip

2 this one. It's just to issue guidance about testing

3 with a standardized sleeve of 14 inches.

4 MR. EISNER: Everybody's okay?

5 MS. ARMSTRONG: Your slide's coming up.

6 MR. EISNER: UV lights?

7 MS. ARMSTRONG: UV lights, there's no issue.

8 They shouldn't be included. So they either need to be

9 disabled, or if there's a unit that has lights non10 standard, I mean, lights that are not UV lights

11 included, then they would not be subject to --

12 MR. EISNER: Any issues, concerns? High

13 static indoor blowers, oversized motors?

14 MS. ARMSTRONG: We've come back to the same

15 issue.

16 MR. CYMBALSKY: You want to keep talking

17 about this one?

18 MS. ARMSTRONG: I don't know. As you can

19 tell, this one and the coated coils are the two that I

20 think the Department is most uneasy about. And part

21 of that is because it's hard for us to discern how we

22 would draw the line. How we would tell what a coated
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1 coil is, how we would tell what an oversized blower.

2 I understand Karim's point about they would certify

3 the combination of blower and/or drive system that was

4 used. And that's something we can consider. I don't

5 think the Department's ready to answer to that yet.

6 But to the extent you could help us with that over the

7 next, you know, that's really where we're coming from

8 here.

9 MR. EISNER: Anybody want --

10 MS. ARMSTRONG: I'm -- we're willing to

11 accept a lot. Those are the two that are sticky ones

12 for us, I think, at this point in time.

13 MR. FLY: This is Mark Fly with AAON,

14 Ashley.

15 I'll make the standard statement I say every

16 time this comes up: I think, going forward, if we look

17 at the test standards, if you look at what the water

18 source heat pump test standard has, they do normalize

19 the external static out of the -- so they have a

20 methodology to account for high static motors. So

21 that might be a way around being able to test with a

22 motor, but yet you get a credit back because it's
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1 intended for a higher static than what was tested at.

2 MS. ARMSTRONG: Yeah, I mean, that's

3 definitely a good idea. I think the Department

4 definitely sees the utility issues and the utility you

5 are providing your customer. We don't want to inhibit

6 that. It's just a matter of finding some middle

7 ground here.

8 MR. STEM: Mike Stem with Intertek. We

9 talked about the ISO corrections a couple weeks ago

10 when we were in here. But if I understand Bob

11 correctly, now we're saying that the static rating has

12 a plus point 05 tolerance too. So we can't go above

13 the minimum static by more than point 05, so that

14 would eliminate the ISO adjustment. So we'd have to

15 decide one way or another.

16 MS. ARMSTRONG: Yep.

17 MR. STEM: Okay.

18 MS. ARMSTRONG: Thank you.

19 MR. EISNER: Other comments or thoughts? Do

20 we want to schedule another time to talk about this,

21 so people know when to be ready, or just put it off to

22 the next meeting complete and raise it again?
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1 MS. BARHYDT: We can touch back in the

2 morning and see if anyone's gotten in any more

3 information. If not, then we'll just resolve those

4 issues at the following meeting.

5 MR. EISNER: And just to reiterate the point

6 DOE's made a number of times during the day. If

7 you've got suggestions it might help if you could

8 craft up a few sentences that we could talk about.

9 And if we put something in context, everybody sees it

10 up on the screen. Okay.

11 MS. ARMSTRONG: So a couple of things. Now,

12 I skipped a couple slides, so I'm just going to go

13 back and touch a couple of issues. One is so on slide

14 14, you know, the list of, for lack of a better term,

15 features and/or considerations for the department,

16 either test procedure or enforcement considerations.

17 This seems to be mostly the list for commercial HVAC.

18 Do they really all apply to SPBUs? I wasn't here for

19 that discussion, so I apologizes.

20 MR. AMRANE: If I may. I mean, this is

21 Karim Amrane with AHRI. I had a discussion, because

22 those manufacturers are represented during this table.
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1 MS. ARMSTRONG: Okay.

2 MR. AMRANE: And I had a discussion with

3 them and they want to have the same definition, the

4 same assumption, because they believe that those will

5 apply to their product as well. But that's their

6 position.

7 MS. ARMSTRONG: Okay.

8 MR. WHITWELL: Ashley.

9 MS. ARMSTRONG: Yeah.

10 MR. WHITWELL: Sorry, Bob Whitwell from

11 Carrier. Before we move on just one other comment on

12 the commercial HVAC. This morning when we were

13 talking about the CRE there was a discussion about

14 general purpose outlet. And we had not included that

15 on our list, but we do have similar type options

16 available on the commercial HVAC as well. So would we

17 treat that the same way?

18 MS. ARMSTRONG: Yeah. Go ahead.

19 MR. RIVEST: This is Mike Rivest. I'm

20 confused why that would even come up. Because I mean,

21 what would you plug in there for your test?

22 MR. WHITWELL: On a rooftop unit, it's for
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1 the service person.

2 MR. RIVEST: No, I don't mean that. I mean,

3 during your test, what is there to test? I mean, we

4 can't assume that they would plug in there; right?

5 MR. WHITWELL: Yeah, if it's a 460 volt, 3-

6 phase, 60 hertz unit, it's 115 volt outlet.

7 MR. RIVEST: No, that's not what I mean.

8 MR. WHITWELL: So there's a --

9 MR. RIVEST: But to say --

10 MR. WHITWELL: So there's a transformer in

11 there that's consuming power.

12 MR. RIVEST: There's a transformer, so

13 that's what we're talking about.

14 MR. WHITWELL: Right.

15 MR. RIVEST: Ah, okay.

16 MR. WHITWELL: So it could be and sometimes

17 they're prewired and sometimes they're not prewired,

18 so that the installer can decide, you know, are they

19 going to wire it in through the same source of power

20 that the unit is in, or is it a different source of

21 power?

22 MS. ARMSTRONG: For theory, just to recap,
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1 we did not exclude them. We just said nothing should

2 be plugged into them. Obviously for tests. So a unit

3 that has an external outlet it's just like --

4 MR. WHITWELL: Okay, I misunderstood. I

5 thought it should not be powered during tests. Which

6 to me means that it's not connected.

7 MALE SPEAKER: I think it said energized.

8 MS. ARMSTRONG: Energized, yeah.

9 MR. WHITWELL: So what would that mean in

10 our case, that the transformer is, if it comes shipped

11 with the wired in then it would be powered? Just

12 trying to understand.

13 MR. RIVEST: Is there even a disconnect on

14 the primary of the transformer?

15 MR. WHITWELL: There may or may not. It

16 probably varies from manufacturer. So there could be

17 a switch, right, there could be a switch or it could

18 be a connection that you could disconnect; right?

19 MR. SACHS: This is Harvey, and I guess I

20 have a question for Bob. I'm hearing this in

21 conjunction. The transformers are only included if I'm

22 at a voltage higher than 230 or higher than 120?
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1 MR. WHITWELL: Higher than 120.

2 MR. SACHS: Higher than 120.

3 MR. WHITWELL: Because it's for a serviceman

4 to plug in his trouble light, or something like that.

5 MR. SACHS: Certainly --

6 MR. WHITWELL: And so it's not a big issue

7 on the large units. But when we talk about a 3-ton,

8 230 volt, 3-phase unit, you know, it could be

9 significant.

10 MR. SACHS: So such a deal. You put in the

11 Solid State power supply instead of that damn copper

12 coil transformer and we'll take it out. It's really,

13 I think you're saying, as much about the standby power

14 where the only time it's really measurable or really

15 consequential.

16 MR. WHITWELL: Well, it depends on how it's

17 installed, right. I mean it could be on all the time.

18 MR. SACHS: Yeah. No, but if it's on all

19 the time it's pulling a few watts at all --

20 MR. WHITWELL: Right.

21 MR. SACHS: -- 8760. So aren't the Solid

22 States getting cheap enough now that they're a better
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1 bet for you?

2 MR. WHITWELL: Could be, Harvey; I don't

3 know. So the input on the CRE, again, was that it is -

4 -

5 MS. ARMSTRONG: Not excluded.

6 MR. WHITWELL: Not excluded. Okay, I

7 misunderstood the comment this morning. Okay, thank

8 you.

9 MS. ARMSTRONG: Yeah.

10 MR. MYERS: This is Frank Myers, PVI. Would

11 there be interest in a compromise perhaps if you had

12 it switched to turn the transformer off, or if it was

13 Solid State, then it would not be included?

14 MS. ARMSTRONG: Harvey, that's you. They're

15 trying to compromise with you.

16 MR. SACHS: Thanks, Frank. I'll have to go

17 back to my people on this one.

18 MR. STARR: This is Louis Starr, NEEA. That

19 kind of defeats the purpose if you're just switching,

20 you're putting a switch for a test procedure in there.

21 But most of the time, and actually for the unit

22 manufacturer I don't think you'd want that. Because
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1 then you'll have people from the field calling in

2 complaining that the power supply doesn't work. And

3 when they realize, oh, it's just the switch over there

4 or something. So I can't imagine the equipment

5 manufacturers would like that.

6 MR. SACHS: And bedsides -- this is Harvey -

7 - it'll only be thrown once and that's into the on

8 position. So my people have spoken, though.

9 MR. EISNER: Anything else on this issue?

10 MS. ARMSTRONG: Yeah, so Karim, I'm going to

11 go back to SBVU. So it's hard for the Department to

12 understand why a lot of these may be needed for SBVU

13 applications. I don't know if you want to talk to

14 them further. I mean, they interact with the test

15 procedure differently, too.

16 MR. AMRANE: And maybe -- this is Karim

17 Amrane with AHRI -- and maybe what we need to do what

18 we did with CRE, maybe have a special, you know, maybe

19 two- hour meeting with them and try to go over those.

20 MS. ARMSTRONG: Maybe ask your members what

21 they may want to do and get back to us.

22 MR. AMRANE: Yeah, maybe we can do that,
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1 yeah.

2 MS. ARMSTRONG: Okay.

3 MR. AMRANE: Okay.

4 MS. ARMSTRONG: Thank you.

5 MS. BARHYDT: (Inaudible).

6 MS. ARMSTRONG: Yeah, I mean, the water

7 source ones are basically the same. For the most

8 part, the commercial HVAC they would follow with the

9 exception of I see a couple of extra ones. I'm not

10 ready to discuss those things.

11 MR. EISNER: Everybody okay with these

12 lists?

13 MS. ARMSTRONG: Well, I think we need to

14 probably agree on the commercial HVAC ones first,

15 right, and then go from there. Which we're not ready

16 to do, because we have a couple outstanding things.

17 MR. EISNER: Okay.

18 MS. ARMSTRONG: I think for the most part

19 we're like 90 percent in agreement.

20 MR. AMRANE: Karim Amrane with AHRI. For

21 the computer room A/C --

22 MS. ARMSTRONG: Yep.
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1 MR. AMRANE: -- you know, I have a suggested

2 definition, which is similar to the HVAC definition as

3 well.

4 MS. ARMSTRONG: Okay.

5 MR. AMRANE: So --

6 MS. ARMSTRONG: You want to hand it to Cory

7 and she'll type it. Thank you.

8 MR. AMRANE: It's definitely the same; it's

9 just an exception where we (inaudible).

10 MS. TUCKER: Okay.

11 MR. AMRANE: So you can use the same

12 definition, if possible.

13 MS. TUCKER: Got it.

14 MR. DOPPEL: Paul Doppel with Mitsubishi.

15 We haven't really talked about it, but the VRF

16 definition should also include water source heat

17 pumps. And we have it sort of in there, but not

18 really.

19 MS. ARMSTRONG: Okay. So for VRFs -- we'll

20 let Cory finish typing -- but for VRFs it's roughly

21 slide 18 in your package. It says greater than

22 65,000? There's not less than 65,000 3-phase?
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1 MR. DOPPEL: There are, but they're covered.

2 They're single phase.

3 MS. ARMSTRONG: They're all single phase.

4 MR. DOPPEL: Yeah.

5 MS. ARMSTRONG: So they would be subject to

6 the --

7 MR. DOPPEL: Right. So in our definition,

8 when it says in the same heat rejection medium air or

9 water, there's an implication that there's water

10 source heat pumps.

11 MS. ARMSTRONG: Okay, so water then.

12 MS. BARHYDT: Are you saying you want

13 something more explicit or are you okay with that?

14 MR. DOPPEL: Probably should have something

15 more explicit, just to be sure.

16 MS. ARMSTRONG: And you just adjust what you

17 want?

18 MR. DOPPEL: When it says air or water after

19 that, another parenthesis that would say includes VRF

20 water source heat pumps.

21 MS. TUCKER: So completely separate?

22 MR. DOPPEL: Yeah.
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1 MS. ARMSTRONG: Not VRF water source.

2 You're thinking pure water source, ground source and

3 evap. Okay. So would it be helpful if we were to put

4 like all these grouped together what we've agreed upon

5 mostly, what is outstanding in like a Word document

6 and circulate it for everyone to have final review of

7 it before we take votes?

8 MR. AMRANE: Yep.

9 MS. ARMSTRONG: And then there's a couple of

10 outstanding things that you guys are going to get back

11 to us on. And Karim you can let us know if we need to

12 set up separate meetings with certain people and we

13 can go from there. So we can maybe bring the basic

14 model issues to a close here.

15 MR. WHITWELL: Do we want to vote on this

16 meeting tomorrow?

17 MS. ARMSTRONG: Do you think you think

18 you're going to be able to provide some feedback on

19 some of the outstanding issues, and be able to vote

20 tomorrow?

21 MR. WHITWELL: Probably not. Probably next

22 meeting, right.
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1 MS. ARMSTRONG: To recap the issues. So off

2 the top of my head coated coils, I think that's for

3 CRE, as well as for HVAC, as well as for PTACs to the

4 extent that's different than HVAC.

5 MS. BARHYDT: And water sources.

6 MS. ARMSTRONG: And water source. Anywhere

7 there's coated coils. A more defined definition and a

8 rational. Motors, so oversized motors, what that

9 really means. How do you tell a standardized motor,

10 how would you define it? What the Department's

11 actually agreeing to, or potentially.

12 MR. CYMBALSKY: What you like the --

13 MS. ARMSTRONG: Yeah, that one. What you'd

14 like the Department to agree to.

15 MR. KOJAK: For the standard motor you're

16 talking about, is that condenser, or indoor, or it's

17 just indoor?

18 MS. ARMSTRONG: No, it's just indoor. I

19 think for a condenser, it's zero static, no issue.

20 It's just a question of if you don't have a standard

21 offering. In other words, if you only have -- if you

22 only offer ducted condenser motors, what do you do?
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1 Because the only way you get some of these test

2 procedure or enforcement exclusions, for lack of a

3 better term, is to have a standard offering that's

4 identical except for that. So if you only offer

5 products with, you know, condenser motors that are

6 ducted, then I think that it's a test procedure waiver

7 issue at that point, not a -- do you have another one?

8 MR. BALLO: Is display lighting for CRE

9 still part of this, or is that thing kicked out into

10 it?

11 MS. ARMSTRONG: Yeah, so we will have to

12 deal with, you're right, the average signage type

13 lighting for a CRE and how we define that. So any

14 additional input. I don't know that'll be basic

15 modelish, but we will have to figure it out. So any

16 input will be great. And the other one, I think, is

17 the dehumidification, like desiccant versus -- I think

18 we had some clarification that it was just desiccant

19 or desiccant like systems. Like it wasn't hot gas

20 bypass, that's separate. But, you know, to the extent

21 we want to -- there we go. Sorry. Hot gas for heat.

22 It's usually my naptime.
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1 MR. HUNT: Hi, this is Marshall Hunt, PG&E.

2 MS. ARMSTRONG: Yep, go ahead.

3 MR. HUNT: And I submitted about three items

4 in an email yesterday that have a lot of similarities

5 to ones already discussed. I don't think any brand

6 new issues are raised in terms of energy impacts. But

7 I did I want to get them on this list. Do you have

8 that file? I sent it to various people. I didn't

9 know who'd get it into the docket most recently.

10 MS. ARMSTRONG: Do you have that file?

11 MS. TUCKER: It's in the computer.

12 MS. ARMSTRONG: It's coming; we're loading

13 it on the computer.

14 While we're loading it, just one other issue

15 is the filter issue. And whether we can come to some

16 type of compromise on six or where we are there.

17 MS. DANE: Ashley, this is Mary from

18 Traulsen. We still have the wedge thing on there. And

19 we also want to finish talking about draining pans,

20 condensate heaters, I believe.

21 MS. ARMSTRONG: All right, so the condensate

22 heaters is going to come down to the methodology.
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1 MS. DANE: Right.

2 MS. ARMSTRONG: So to the extent you guys

3 have a common methodology that you can agree upon, we

4 welcome it. Otherwise, the Department's going to give

5 it its best shot for notice and comment.

6 MS. DANE: I think we'd like to talk to

7 people with different kinds of equipment to see --

8 MS. ARMSTRONG: Absolutely.

9 MS. DANE: Just to understand if there is a

10 difference and it should be considered.

11 MS. ARMSTRONG: We're welcome.

12 MS. DANE: Okay.

13 MS. ARMSTRONG: Yeah, we welcome that.

14 And then the other one -- so for wedge

15 cases, I mean, that's one where we can't do a whole

16 lot, our hands are tied right now, because our

17 existing regs are pretty clear. They must be tested

18 independently. And the standards, it talks about how

19 to address them in terms of the standards. If you

20 feel that the test procedure, because it requires

21 testing them independently is unrepresentative of your

22 unit's energy consumption in the field, you may apply
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1 for a test procedure waiver.

2 And one option would be for that waiver to

3 request the Department's consideration to be tested

4 with a parent case, if that's what you'd like to do.

5 And that's our best case now. In terms of long term

6 specs, we'd need to, you know, revisit that, or at

7 least look at whether we should revisit that.

8 Okay. I think that's all I had. Does

9 anyone have any other ones? We're going to like send

10 out something.

11 MS. BARHYDT: Yeah.

12 MS. ARMSTRONG: We. We are going to send

13 out something, collective. Collective.

14 MS. TUCKER: (Inaudible).

15 MS. ARMSTRONG: Yeah, do you have Marshall's

16 stuff?

17 MS. TUCKER: I have the slide up. But you'd

18 rather -- it's those three.

19 MR. HUNT: I can make this easy -- this is

20 Marshall -- that I would appreciate people looking at

21 these overnight. Working alone, I'm not sure I got

22 the benefit of everyone's give and take that was given
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1 on the other exceptions. But I would like these to be

2 looked at by folks. And we could hit tomorrow at some

3 point. There's three.

4 MS. ARMSTRONG: Yeah.

5 MR. HUNT: And they're related to what was

6 brought up by my friends who are concerned about the

7 hot, dry, wet. Thank you folks. And these are not

8 national applications at all, so they obviously don't

9 belong in the national test. But they are and will be

10 more important for us. Today, we're only going to get

11 up to 108 throughout the state.

12 MS. TUCKER: Are you guys good if I float to

13 the next one?

14 MR. HUNT: So I don't expect everyone to

15 speed read these now.

16 And there's a Word document that filled out

17 the table like the others -- was done for the others

18 that are like in the high -- in the mid-30s down the

19 list. This one may be controversial, because it might

20 be being done without the manufacturers really wanting

21 it to happen at all. But I did want to mention it,

22 that this kind of thing is happening. It's indoor
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1 when you have multiple units serving a single space

2 some of them become merely dedicated outdoor air

3 systems. Even though you're operating outside the

4 manufacturer's standard limits of operation. And this

5 is certainly an application specific concept. Making

6 use of a good quality RTU gets you indoor air quality.

7 MS. ARMSTRONG: This is Ashley from DOE. It

8 seems like from the people in the room they're saying

9 this would require a test procedure change to address.

10 MR. HUNT: I want it exempt. I don't want

11 it to be addressed by the test procedure. So if I can

12 order a modified RTU that gets it to be DOS, or DOAS,

13 or near DOAS. I don't want that to be a part of a

14 test that the manufacturer must pass. Because it will

15 have different things going on than the standard unit.

16 So all these are exceptions that shouldn't be pulled

17 off the line, or pulled out of the warehouse and

18 tested.

19 MS. ARMSTRONG: This is the same issue that

20 came up before. Yeah, so a truly dedicated outdoor,

21 100 percent outdoor air, to the extent it meets the

22 definition of commercial air conditions it's not
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1 uncovered, let's put it that way. We did specifically

2 address this issue in the last ASHRAE rule where

3 someone asked us this. Just because it has 100

4 percent outdoor air, or some combination close to does

5 not mean it's excluded from the regulations. Now,

6 that being said, there may be other problems.

7 MR. FLY: So this is Mark Fly. So what's

8 inner and coil condition on that, is it 80/67?

9 MS. ARMSTRONG: Yeah, like I said, there may

10 be other problems.

11 MR. FLY: Okay.

12 MS. ARMSTRONG: But that just doesn't mean

13 that it's excluded from the regs, per se. I guess, so

14 there's a couple of things. We've had some people ask

15 us about this quite frequently lately. And it's fine,

16 Marshall, to the extent you're suggesting an exclusion

17 for those units that are dedicated outdoor air

18 systems, that's fine when there's a standard unit

19 available. What if someone only offers dedicated

20 outdoor air systems period?

21 MR. HUNT: Oh, no, this is -- so I mean, I

22 put RTU there, maybe it should be standard RTU, or
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1 whatever the right language is. It's assuming I could

2 order model X, model plus, plus, plus, after whatever

3 signs and order the proper component with the help of

4 the technical people at the manufacturers. Come up

5 with a unit that withstand the difference entering air

6 temperatures that I'd meet.

7 MS. ARMSTRONG: You know what I'm thinking

8 of right now? So you would say that --

9 MR. HUNT: So, yes, there's a standard unit.

10 MS. ARMSTRONG: -- if they didn't offer a

11 standard unit, and everyone --

12 MR. HUNT: Yes.

13 MS. ARMSTRONG: -- in the room seems to be

14 looking at me like a little crazy. Although, I've

15 gotten this question. So if they didn't offer a

16 standard unit, then their dedicated outdoor unit would

17 be subject to test. And if it couldn't be tested,

18 then they need a waiver.

19 MR. HUNT: Correct.

20 MS. ARMSTRONG: That's the process. Okay.

21 MR. HUNT: But it's so much more cost

22 effective to take a manufacturer platform that's made
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1 by the thousands and adapt it then to have a one off.

2 MS. ARMSTRONG: Sure, sure. Okay. So these

3 are on SharePoint now. So if you guys could take a

4 look at that tonight and let us know what you think,

5 that'd be great. And we can consider them in our

6 final list.

7 MR. HUNT: Thank you.

8 MS. ARMSTRONG: So we've come 90 percent of

9 the way there on basic model. We have a couple of

10 outstanding issues. I want to know how you guys feel

11 about starting certification. In terms of what

12 information needs to be provided by whom, what's

13 public, what's private?

14 MS. BARHYDT: We talked about that one.

15 MS. ARMSTRONG: Okay. I mean, can we move

16 on, or are we at a point where we need to stop,

17 because you guys would rather discuss some of the

18 outstanding basic model issues and try to come to

19 closure on those tomorrow first, or what exactly do we

20 want to do here? We can take a nap.

21 MR. THARP: Harvey already did. He missed

22 the second one.
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1 MS. HOOTMAN: Beyond certification or in the

2 certification? So we can start talking about the

3 general types of information to collect, that kind of

4 thing?

5 MR. AMRANE: Just a moment.

6 MS. ARMSTRONG: Yeah, go ahead.

7 MR. AMRANE: Karim Amrane with AHRI. On the

8 computer room A/C definition, I mean, I provided at

9 least some input. Now, again, maybe the best way if

10 you want to is to arrange a meeting with those folks

11 on a conference call and go over the definition. That

12 would be maybe more efficient that way. I don't know.

13 I think it's similar to the large package unitary. A

14 few things that might be slightly different. But I

15 can certainly try to arrange a meeting like this or

16 call.

17 MS. ARMSTRONG: Yeah, I mean, without

18 pulling the test procedure in front of me, I'm not

19 going to know how some of these things are, or if they

20 are even treated differently.

21 MR. AMRANE: Okay.

22 MS. ARMSTRONG: I just don't know off the
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1 top of my head. So the best way to do it might either

2 a separate call if they want to do one, or to circle

3 back.

4 MR. AMRANE: Okay. All right, I mean, we

5 can do --

6 MS. ARMSTRONG: When you have a chance. I

7 mean, we welcome anyone else.

8 MR. AMRANE: I think a separate call might

9 be better.

10 MS. ARMSTRONG: Sure.

11 MR. AMRANE: To be honest with you.

12 MS. ARMSTRONG: Just let us know.

13 MR. AMRANE: Just because there's nobody

14 here represented.

15 MS. ARMSTRONG: Okay. All right, move on.

16 MS. BARHYDT: So as a procedural matter, on

17 the, I think it was SPBU and on the computer room air

18 conditions. The question is, is the working group

19 okay with the Department meeting with those groups

20 without everybody present? Do you want a general

21 invitation to go out so that people have the

22 opportunity to be present? We can as a group agree to
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1 allow the Department to go meet with them, and then

2 come back and report back as a separate group. But we

3 need to have a clear decision about how the group

4 wants to handle those.

5 MS. DANE: This is Mary from Traulsen. The

6 other day when you handled the call with commercial

7 refrigeration offline, I think it moved quite quickly.

8 MS. BARHYDT: So that was not offline. That

9 was with a court reporter and the whole --

10 MS. DANE: Well, no. But what I -- right.

11 Well, I mean, you still had that. But what I'm saying

12 is we didn't have to wait, we were able to accomplish

13 something in between meetings and to be ready for the

14 next one. I've noted that you've put quite a list for

15 HVAC off. And we're talking about going over it at

16 the beginning of the next meeting, which is fine.

17 But, you know, then the rest of us sit and wait. So

18 I'm wondering would you consider, would they consider

19 having their last minute things discussed between

20 meetings also, so that we could just keep pushing

21 ahead on the agenda items and go forward. I mean, it

22 involves a lot of phone calls, but I mean, it's an
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1 option to being able to finish by the end of August.

2 MS. BARHYDT: So just to be clear on the

3 procedural part of this, the working group can set up

4 - - so obviously we're a subgroup that's been tasked

5 by the ASRAC. We can then say we want to have a group

6 go off and work and report back. And that would not

7 actually have the full court reporter and the full

8 transcript. That would be different from what we did

9 with commercial refrigeration equipment where that was

10 all on the record and it was technically a full

11 meeting, even though we didn't have real high

12 attendance. So that's what I was wondering is do you

13 want the meetings with the SPBU and the computer room

14 air conditioners to be full meetings on the record, or

15 do you want those to just be --

16 MS. HOOTMAN: Yeah. This is Jill from

17 Trane. I think that those need to be, because there

18 are --

19 MS. BARHYDT: Okay.

20 MS. HOOTMAN: -- people here, that are

21 people that make those that aren't here. So I don't

22 know who's on the phone, but I'm not sure that they've
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1 been joining.

2 MS. BARHYDT: Okay.

3 MS. HOOTMAN: So they need to have the

4 opportunity to be included.

5 MS. BARHYDT: So it's not a question of

6 whether they have the opportunity to share their

7 views, it's a question of whether it all is going to

8 be on the record, or whether it's going to be

9 basically the working group tasking a team, presumably

10 Karim, DOE and whoever those people are meeting. And

11 then us reporting back to the full group. Or whether

12 it's technically a full group meeting on the record.

13 Either way we want to hear their views, there's no

14 question about that. It's just procedurally whether

15 it is a full meeting on the record, or whether it's a

16 tasking, work tasking group.

17 MS. HOOTMAN: Okay. So if it is not a full

18 one, or full whatever, if it's not one on the record,

19 etcetera, how would those others know to even come?

20 MS. ARMSTRONG: We can still send a --

21 MR. AMRANE: Well, we can contact them.

22 MS. HOOTMAN: Okay.
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1 MR. AMRANE: But there might be others that

2 are not within our group, too. I mean, that's --

3 MS. HOOTMAN: No, I'm actually of thinking

4 of like Bard, who is, you know --

5 MR. AMRANE: Yeah, (inaudible).

6 MS. HOOTMAN: Right.

7 MS. ARMSTRONG: We can send out a blast. I

8 mean, that's not -- or put it on our website or

9 something if that's an issue, yeah.

10 MS. HOOTMAN: I was just making sure.

11 Because the other way being public then I figured they

12 have the, you know --

13 MS. ARMSTRONG: Yeah.

14 MS. HOOTMAN: They see the blast, they don't

15 see them, or whatever.

16 MR. AMRANE: I mean, for me -- this is Karim

17 with AHRI -- I think what is easier for DOE? I

18 understand that getting, you know, a court recorder

19 can be a hassle for you guys. So if it's easier for

20 you to have not informal, but kind of an informal

21 meeting we would be fine with those.

22 MS. BARHYDT: Yes, it is. It really is.
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1 The logistics in trying to do this in the short

2 timeframe.

3 MR. EISNER: Okay. Before we got onto the

4 next issue, John Bean is on the phone. You had a

5 question or comment?

6 MR. BEAN: This is John Bean here from

7 Snyder Electric. I am with the datacom section,

8 manufacturer of computer room air conditioning.

9 MR. EISNER: Did you want to make a comment,

10 or you just want us to know you're there on the line?

11 MR. BEAN: Well, it was mentioned that we

12 had nobody on the line from the computer room air

13 conditioning manufacturers. But I did want to correct

14 that and mention that we do have one. I would like to

15 mention that if we could have a larger audience with

16 some of the other manufacturers, rather than just

17 letting myself represent them, I think that would be

18 wonderful.

19 MR. EISNER: Okay.

20 MS. BARHYDT: So if DOE can work out the

21 logistics we'll do the full meeting on the record.

22 But if not, is everyone okay with DOE and we'll send
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1 out a blast, and anyone who wants to participate is

2 welcome to, but it won't be necessarily an official

3 meeting of the working group. Is everyone okay with

4 that?

5 MR. SACHS: I approve this message.

6 MS. BARHYDT: Thank you, Harvey.

7 MS. DANE: And that was for which specific

8 groups?

9 MS. BARHYDT: Computer room air conditioners

10 and SPVUs.

11 MR. BAUMAN: This is Jeff Bauman for

12 National. I just want to -- and I think we had some

13 exposure to some CRE. I think we thought it was

14 probably more formal than it needed, our impression.

15 But we understand we have to follow the rules with the

16 court reporter and such. So I think the idea that if

17 it's going to be announced to everybody that's

18 listening in or a part of these meetings, that

19 decisions are not made at those meetings, it's just

20 informational. So we can come back and work faster

21 when we get back together as a group. The court

22 reporter and all that, I don't think is required. I
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1 think we saw that at that meeting.

2 MR. EISNER: Okay, are you ready to go onto

3 certification?

4 MS. BARHYDT: Certification.

5 MR. EISNER: This is slide 29.

6 MS. BARHYDT: So the last time we talked a

7 little bit about public versus private information.

8 Did anyone have any other questions about that?

9 Okay.

10 MS. HOOTMAN: This is Jill Hootman from

11 Trane. I don't have any more questions per se, but I

12 will say that I am not ready to agree or disagree. I

13 am having some legal people look at some information,

14 and I don't have it back.

15 MS. BARHYDT: Okay. So the information we

16 typically collect on the certification report covered

17 the product or equipment type, the product or

18 equipment class, the manufacturer's name and address,

19 if there is a private labeler, their name and address,

20 the brand name, the basic model number. Individual

21 model number is covered by a basic model. A status

22 column. That's either it's new, discontinued, it's a
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1 continuing product, it's a correction, stuff like

2 that. The test sample size. We have people put in

3 the numeral "1" and if they are using an AEDM; the

4 U.S. Customs and Border Protection importer

5 identification number, if applicable; whether the

6 certification is based on a test procedure waiver and

7 the date of the waiver; whether the certification is

8 based on exception relief from the Office of Hearings

9 and Appeals and the date, if applicable; and then

10 whether or not the certification is based on an ARM or

11 AEDM.

12 MR. EISNER: Does anybody have any questions

13 on any of this?

14 MR. THARP: Rusty Tharp with Goodman. What

15 about talk about the basic model number and the

16 individual model numbers? This could get into an

17 issue, especially for some of the others if you

18 include every possible individual model number, you

19 don't have a spreadsheet or columns big enough for all

20 of that. So can we use asterisks?

21 MS. BARHYDT: Yes. So most manufacturers do

22 use asterisks. And the key is that that number should
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1 be -- it should be possible for the Department to look

2 at, say, your catalogue and say, "This is that thing."

3 So as long as we can tell what you are selling is

4 actually certified, you are good. But most

5 manufacturers do use asterisks heavily.

6 MR. HON: Charlie Hon, True Manufacturing.

7 In similar certifications like the Energy Star

8 programs, things like that, they were asking for a lot

9 more information as far as because our products --

10 MS. BARHYDT: So this is the general

11 information, not the product-specific information? We

12 have different slides for each, product-specific.

13 MR. HON: Thank you.

14 MR. DOPPEL: Paul Doppel with Mitsubishi.

15 You know, I am just kind of thinking out loud on this,

16 but the next thing below basic model number is

17 individual numbers covered by that basic model. So if

18 we are using an AEDM now, does that kind of change the

19 parameters of that?

20 MS. BARHYDT: So an AEDM would be you would

21 be using an AEDM to presumably generate ratings that

22 are a lot of different ratings across the wide swath
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1 of different types of products. Those would not all

2 be the same basic model. You would still have the

3 ability to group things into different basic models,

4 which impacts what is determined to be compliant or

5 noncompliant if DOE were to go to enforcement testing

6 and find something to be noncompliant. So there is

7 still a concept of a basic model, even if you are

8 using an AEDM.

9 MR. EISNER: Others?

10 MR. WHITWELL: Bob Whitwell from Carrier.

11 Last time we talked about this, there was some

12 discussion about what on this list was going to be

13 public and what was going to be private. Could we go

14 through that again?

15 MS. BARHYDT: So typically, the

16 product/equipment type, the equipment class, the brand

17 name, the basic --

18 MS. HOOTMAN: (Inaudible).

19 MS. BARHYDT: Okay. So --

20 MS. TUCKER: What is write in for the --

21 MS. BARHYDT: So equipment type, equipment

22 class, public. Manufacturer name and address would
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1 not be. Private labeler name and address would not

2 be. Brand name is. Basic model number is. Individual

3 model numbers are. Status is not. I can't remember

4 if sample size is. I don't think it is.

5 And then whether or not it is based on a

6 test procedure waiver, I don't think we published

7 that. I don't think we published OHA or whether it is

8 based on an AEDM. I don't think we publish any of

9 that.

10 MR. DOPPEL: It is Paul Doppel. So it looks

11 like there are two there that kind of reference AEDM:

12 test sample size.

13 MS. BARHYDT: So the test sample size, if

14 you are actually doing testing, it's how many units

15 did you test? So it's 2, 3, 4, 12.

16 MR. DOPPEL: But if you have an AEDM.

17 MS. BARHYDT: If you have an AEDM, we ask

18 that people put a "1" in that column and then they

19 mark, "Yes," that I used an AEDM.

20 MR. DOPPEL: But on our chart, we said that

21 the minimum is two to establish an AEDM.

22 MS. BARHYDT: Right, but those are future
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1 potential regulations.

2 MR. DOPPEL: We don't have -- you know, you

3 said 1, and we told you you have to have a minimum of

4 two.

5 MS. BARHYDT: Yes. No, no, no. So right

6 now, the 1 is just basically so that our validation

7 checks don't come back and say, "Oh, you left this

8 field blank." What we are really looking at is, did

9 you use an AEDM or not?

10 MR. AMRANE: Karim Amrane. Maybe to avoid

11 confusion, instead of 1, you should put something

12 else.

13 MS. BARHYDT: Right, right. We can deal

14 with that.

15 MR. BALLO: On status, it could be helpful

16 to make public a new certification, discontinued

17 existing if -- you know, for people like me, who look

18 at the database see that a product was certified last

19 time and isn't certified in the most recent round of

20 certifications, it would be helpful to know that

21 because last time it was certified as discontinued or

22 -
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1 -

2 MS. BARHYDT: So once it is marked as "D,"

3 discontinued, it actually comes off the public

4 database. So there is no way to actually display a D

5 because it's not up there anymore.

6 MS. MEYERS: So, Laura, this is Karen with

7 Rheem. So the stuff that is not public, status, test

8 sample size, et cetera, would still be subject to FOIA

9 requests? Is that correct?

10 MS. BARHYDT: So it's still subject to FOIA

11 requests. However, some of it may be able to be

12 withheld under different exemptions of the FOIA. So

13 the public means that DOE is publishing it on our

14 certification database. The ones that don't say

15 anything are the ones that we're not publishing, but

16 it doesn't mean that they are necessarily excluded

17 under

18 FOIA.

19 We have had some manufacturers claim that

20 the manufacturer-private labeler relationship is

21 confidential business information. We have had some

22 people make the argument that the phone numbers of
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1 their employees are exempt. And I don't actually know

2 whether those claims were granted or not, but I do

3 know that we have had people make those claims. The

4 manufacturer-private labeler I think has typically

5 been granted, that we have withheld that.

6 MR. BALLO: I just have to disagree with

7 that. I mean, as a practical matter, it's most often

8 the case that we have been able to determine who the

9 manufacturer is for items that are private labeled,

10 but

11 --

12 MS. BARHYDT: (Inaudible.)

13 MR. BALLO: That's true. So all I can say

14 is I disagree with that. I realize I am not going to

15 convince the entire room of it. So I am willing to

16 let it go, but I think it should be public.

17 MS. MEYERS: So this is Karen again. On

18 page 29, so the slide previous to this, where it says

19 "private information" and it is a "PDF of additional

20 testing information," so would that be subject to FOIA

21 requests also? So if we had a unit tested --

22 MS. BARHYDT: So there's a difference
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1 between when a manufacturer submits test data to the

2 Department and when the Department has something

3 tested.

4 MS. MEYERS: Okay.

5 MS. BARHYDT: If it is information submitted

6 to the Department, then we will send that information

7 and the information is requested in a FOIA, we send it

8 back to the manufacturer and we ask for the

9 manufacturer's views of whether or not the information

10 in that report is confidential business information.

11 And then the Department makes a determination of

12 whether or not the legal standard has been met for

13 withholding that information. It is different when it

14 is the Department doing the testing.

15 MS. HOOTMAN: And so when the Department is

16 doing the testing?

17 MS. BARHYDT: So when the Department is

18 doing the testing, we evaluate the test data and

19 determine whether or not the information contained in

20 the test report is confidential business information.

21 MS. HOOTMAN: This is Jill from Trane. And

22 can we --
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1 MS. BARHYDT: Is your mike working? It just

2 doesn't sound --

3 MS. HOOTMAN: It's green light is all we can

4 tell you.

5 MS. BARHYDT: Okay.

6 MS. HOOTMAN: So can we tell you what we

7 feel is confidential information of what you tested?

8 MS. BARHYDT: I mean, the regulations are

9 not set up that way. The way it's set up is that

10 information submitted to the Department goes back to

11 the submitter. And this is not information that came

12 from the manufacturer. It's government information.

13 MR. THARP: This is Rusty with the Goodman.

14 I would suggest that maybe one thing we would discuss

15 is what -- one of the things we would agree upon is

16 what type of test data is confidential and not to be

17 shared or what we, as manufacturers, would like not to

18 be shared as far as the details of the operation of

19 the system versus --

20 MR. EISNER: Are you talking about

21 information you submit or information they gather?

22 MR. THARP: The information would be
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1 gathered during the testing process. For example, you

2 take --

3 MR. EISNER: That DOE --

4 MR. THARP: -- all of the refrigerant

5 pressures, the amps, the RPMs, et cetera, all of the

6 operating parameters of the system; if you are talking

7 VFD stuff, you know, what specific speed you are

8 operating at, et cetera.

9 MR. DOPPEL: This is Paul Doppel with

10 Mitsubishi. You know, it seems that we can come up

11 with a test report, you know, a one page that has, you

12 know, information that could readily be released. And

13 then, you know, that just becomes the de facto test

14 report.

15 MS. BARHYDT: So the Department is not going

16 to ask our labs to give us a summary report in an

17 enforcement situation. We're going to ask for

18 complete test data. And so once we have all of that

19 test data, it is the government's data. It's not like

20 we can say, "Oh. Well, just give us a summary

21 report," and go into an enforcement action.

22 MS. HOOTMAN: And so my competitor could ask
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1 under Freedom of Information Act for that information

2 and --

3 MS. BARHYDT: They can ask. That doesn't

4 mean we're going to release it. All I am saying is

5 that it is government information. It is not --

6 MS. HOOTMAN: I'm not disputing that it is

7 not government information.

8 MS. BARHYDT: Okay.

9 MS. HOOTMAN: I get that. I'm worried about

10 whether that gets released and whether someone could -

11 - I know someone can back wood engineer from that.

12 MR. BALLO: Isn't there an exemption,

13 though, from FOIA for items related to an ongoing and

14 compliance investigation?

15 MS. BARHYDT: There is. I think the bigger

16 issue is after the case is closed.

17 MR. DOPPEL: This is Paul Doppel with

18 Mitsubishi. You know, I think I brought this up

19 before, but in order to get to where we are today,

20 there was a confidential interview process that was

21 done with a lot of manufacturers. Is that information

22 available?
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1 MS. BARHYDT: So there is a big difference

2 between the information that is gathered in the

3 rulemaking process and the information that is

4 gathered during the enforcement process. Information

5 that is gathered during the rulemaking process by DOE

6 contractors is retained by the contractors under the

7 contract. And my understanding is the government does

8 not have access to that information. During an

9 enforcement action, the government has the

10 information. Does that make sense?

11 MR. DOPPEL: No.

12 MS. BARHYDT: Okay. So during the

13 rulemaking process, the way the information is

14 gathered, it is gathered by a contractor. And it's

15 put into a format in which the government does not

16 actually have access to the individual responses;

17 whereas, in an enforcement context, we have the full

18 information. And that is what subjects it to FOIA.

19 The contractor does not act on our behalf in the same

20 way in an enforcement context.

21 MS. MEYERS: So that applies to a DOE lab

22 and a lab that DOE contracts with? Is the contractor
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1 --

2 MS. BARHYDT: The contract is very different

3 in enforcement testing or verification testing, for

4 that matter. All of the testing is done under a

5 different provision.

6 MS. HOOTMAN: Verification.

7 MS. BARHYDT: Right.

8 MR. EISNER: Are we finished with this

9 thought? Because we have a question online. I don't

10 want to interrupt this. Any more on this particular

11 point?

12 MS. HOOTMAN: We're finished to the

13 understanding of the situation.

14 MS. HOOTMAN: We are not finished to

15 agreement or consensus on that.

16 MR. EISNER: Okay.

17 MR. AMRANE: This is Karim Amrane. Just one

18 question. What is needed to change this: an act of

19 Congress or something like that? I mean --

20 MS. BARHYDT: I don't even understand the

21 question.

22 MR. AMRANE: For example, I mean, this is
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1 sensitive information that we believe --

2 MS. BARHYDT: Right. And the government can

3 protect sensitive information. The issue is that it

4 is not the manufacturer's information. So we do not

5 go to the manufacturer and seek their views. The

6 Department reviews the information and determines what

7 is confidential business information and what is not.

8 I mean, we still have an obligation to protect trade

9 secrets. That doesn't go away because we didn't get

10 the information from you.

11 MR. THARP: This is Rusty Tharp with

12 Goodman. I guess that I would -- both of the labs that

13 I have been associated with, they typically have a

14 cover page that gives a summary of results and then

15 details of the operation, including all of the

16 refrigerant stake points and all of the actual

17 measurements made are in later pages. I guess that is

18 what I would suggest is we might want to at least have

19 -- manufacturers have our opportunity to say, "Here is

20 what we feel is confidential business information" so

21 that if that ever comes to a point for the DOE, then

22 you will have this. We'll have an understanding of
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1 what you feel is confidential business information and

2 what is not.

3 MS. BARHYDT: So all I would say is this

4 rulemaking will obviously go through notice and

5 comment. And, by all means, submit all of your

6 specific views on the data, but ultimately that is a

7 government decision under the Freedom of Information

8 Act.

9 MR. DOPPEL: Paul Doppel with Mitsubishi.

10 You know, the testing lab is essentially a private

11 contractor. And so DOE can request information that

12 they need to make the determination. And the summary

13 report would provide the determination and --

14 MS. BARHYDT: And if all of you are willing

15 to agree that if they give us a summary report that

16 your product fails and you are going to let us issue a

17 noncompliance determination based on a summary report

18 without arguing over any of the details of the test,

19 then we'll talk.

20 MS. HOOTMAN: No.

21 MR. DOPPEL: No. We still have the

22 agreement that if there is a failure, that we can go
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1 back and request a retest.

2 MR. THARP: Or they are there to begin with.

3 MS. BARHYDT: So I am not talking about just

4 an AEDM provision. I am talking about failure to meet

5 minimum standards.

6 MS. HOOTMAN: Yes. Paul, she is talking

7 about not just a spot check. She is ready to take her

8 --

9 MR. DOPPEL: I know --

10 MS. HOOTMAN: Yes. No. We want the full

11 lab report.

12 MR. DOPPEL: Okay. Well, then you have to

13 deal with everything being released.

14 MS. HOOTMAN: But I want that lab report

15 between me and the government. I don't necessarily

16 want it out there in --

17 MR. THARP: Part of it.

18 MS. HOOTMAN: -- freedom of information.

19 MR. THARP: Part of it.

20 MR. DOPPEL: You can't have both, it looks

21 like.

22 MS. HOOTMAN: And, actually, Laura, you said
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1 something. I would like a clarification. You said it

2 would be subject to notice and, you know --

3 MS. BARHYDT: Yes. So everything that we --

4 MS. HOOTMAN: Can we --

5 MS. BARHYDT: Go ahead.

6 MS. HOOTMAN: In this process -- this is

7 just kind of an overall in this, --

8 MS. BARHYDT: Right.

9 MS. HOOTMAN: -- the goal of this. Could we

10 not recommend that this go to a direct final rule at

11 the end of this since we have had consensus and we

12 have had an open process?

13 MS. BARHYDT: I believe the direct final

14 rule provision that is in EPCA only pertains to

15 standards.

16 MALE SPEAKER: That's correct.

17 MS. BARHYDT: We can't do that on this kind

18 of a rule.

19 MS. HOOTMAN: Okay. All right.

20 MR. EISNER: All right. We have a question

21 from Wes Wostal. Wes, are you on the line?

22 MR. WOSTAL: Yes, I'm here. Thank you. I
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1 apologize to everybody. I had had some technical

2 difficulties. I thought I was connected by phone, but

3 found out I wasn't until just a short time ago.

4 I actually had a question all the way back

5 at the filters. I'm not asking that we go back to

6 that because it is my understanding that that issue is

7 not resolved at this point. So I will get an

8 opportunity to bring up my questions at another time.

9 Is that correct?

10 MS. BARHYDT: Actually, if you would go

11 ahead and state it so that we know what the issue is

12 and everybody can be thinking about it as they think

13 about the issue generally, that would be great.

14 MR. WOSTAL: Okay. Well, I'm with Climate

15 Master. We're a water source heat pump manufacturer.

16 And I guess my first question was I am curious where

17 the MERV-3 came from. And then, second, I believe I

18 heard you actually say that the thought was that

19 whatever we determined here would be the filter that

20 gets tested with any product that gets selected by

21 DOE. Is that correct?

22 MS. BARHYDT: So that was the idea that we
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1 would agree on a standard filter for testing.

2 MR. WOSTAL: Okay. My statement to that is

3 that, you know, we are talking about an item that is a

4 throw-away component. It's going to be in the field.

5 You know, if the customer does things correctly, it

6 will be in the field for only a few months of usage.

7 And we typically just put an inexpensive fiberglass

8 filter in our units knowing that it is going to be

9 thrown away and that the customer if they so choose,

10 they can put a better filter in, a higher-efficiency

11 filter.

12 Now, I will say that we do have, you know,

13 in some situations, we have, better filters, but

14 typically our standard is just a fiberglass throw-away

15 because it is just that, a throw-away. And in the

16 competitive market, we try to look at every, you know,

17 penny we can. And so we choose not to spend extra

18 money on something that is going to be tossed in the

19 garbage can. So I guess I'm just -- you know, when we

20 make the statement that this would be, you know,

21 standard, you know, then I think somebody else, maybe

22 the person from Trane, made the comment that that is a
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1 lot of money that would be added to the cost of their

2 product if we have to go to this as a standard.

3 MR. KOJAK: This is Mike Kojak with UL.

4 What was stated earlier was it was just the MERV-6 or

5 the MERV-4 we were talking about. It was just for the

6 rating tests and not for selling the unit with that

7 filter in it. You can sell it with whatever filter

8 you want but for the rating test, it would have to be

9 the minimum with the 4 or the 6 MERV or a 3.

10 MR. WOSTAL: Right, MERV-6. My quick

11 comment to that is our group, we do not -- basically

12 Climate Master -- and I think I pretty well speak for

13 most every water source company. I don't know if

14 anybody else from water source is on the phone call

15 here, but we don't have AEDMs. We are working on one.

16 We have been for a couple of years. But to meet the

17 requirements of the AEDM, it has not been an easy

18 task. And I really don't know that we will have one by

19 the deadline of the end of this year that is accurate

20 enough to meet the requirements.

21 So, with that, we test everything. And, you

22 know, everything, as I said, has been tested with just
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1 a throw-away filter. Now you're talking about without

2 having an AEDM that may not be ready by the end of the

3 year. That's a lot of testing that has to be done to

4 go back and reestablish all of that test data.

5 MS. BARHYDT: So have you seen the AEDM

6 proposal that came out of the working group?

7 MR. WOSTAL: I have not. I have not seen

8 that.

9 MS. BARHYDT: That may address some of your

10 concerns.

11 MR. WOSTAL: Okay. How can I get my hands

12 on that?

13 MR. AMRANE: Karim Amrane with AHRI.

14 Although the issue here has been really to come within

15 the five percent tolerance. I mean, it is a challenge

16 for those products. So yes, industry is trying to

17 find an AEDM, develop an AEDM.

18 MR. EISNER: Can you give him the address

19 for the document? He wants to know how he can find

20 it.

21 MR. AMRANE: Wes, I'll send it to you. This

22 is Karim.
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1 MR. WOSTAL: Okay. Thanks a lot, Karim.

2 MR. EISNER: Okay. Why don't we take a ten3 minute break and come back at 4:00 o'clock.

4 (Whereupon, there was a brief recess.)

5 MR. EISNER: If everybody could get seated

6 so we can start?

7 MS. BARHYDT: Any other questions about the

8 general types of information DOE collects? Frank?

9 MR. MYERS: Never mind.

10 MR. EISNER: Okay. Nobody else has

11 anything?

12 All right. So that takes us up to the

13 commercial warm air furnaces.

14 MS. BARHYDT: So product-specific

15 information. Looking at what types of information the

16 Department might ought to collect in a certification

17 report, the AHRI directory for commercial warm air

18 furnaces includes fuel type, furnace type, the

19 configuration, input rating, and thermal efficiency.

20 DOE regulations currently only require the thermal

21 efficiency in percent and the maximum rated input

22 capacity in Btus per hour.
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1 So what else should be provided to DOE? We

2 have already discussed the possibility of a PDF with

3 additional testing instructions as necessary under the

4 AEDM provisions. Should that be provided, even if

5 manufacturers don't use an AEDM?

6 And then what other information might the

7 DOE need to be able to run the test?

8 MR. EISNER: When you show this information,

9 you get thermal efficiency percent. Is that different

10 from what AHRI gets?

11 MS. BARHYDT: For this product, I'm not

12 sure. I know there is one place where our units are

13 different than what AHRI has, but I am not sure which

14 one it is.

15 MR. STANONIK: Frank Stanonik, AHRI. Now,

16 we show it in percent. And, just for clarity, our

17 input rating is also the maximum rated input capacity.

18 It is the same.

19 MR. EISNER: So that if consistency is good,

20 that's good, then?

21 MR. DOPPEL: Paul Doppel with Mitsubishi.

22 So any documentation that we provide to DOE for
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1 conducting the test could be classified as company2 confidential.

3 MS. BARHYDT: So I can't tell you that

4 anything you provide would be. I mean, maybe you give

5 me a model number. You can't claim a model number as

6 confidential business information.

7 MR. DOPPEL: Well, I am referring to what

8 you were just talking about: the PDF or --

9 MS. BARHYDT: Right. So what I can tell you

10 is that --

11 MR. DOPPEL: -- document on how to conduct

12 the test.

13 MS. BARHYDT: -- my FOIA office, if you give

14 me a PDF that says at the top of it the name of your

15 company and the model number and it says, "Testing

16 Instructions" at the top, they are not going to let me

17 withhold the entire document. They are going to say I

18 have to at least release those three lines at the top.

19 So that's why I am drawing the distinction of I can't

20 tell you that that PDF is going to be withheld. I am

21 going to have to produce a document that says,

22 "Mitsubishi gave me a PDF." And I may only release
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1 those top three lines, but I am going to be releasing

2 something.

3 MR. WHITWELL: And you would have a

4 discussion with the manufacturer before release,

5 though?

6 MS. BARHYDT: Yes because that is

7 information submitted to the Department by the

8 manufacturer.

9 MR. WHITWELL: Bob Whitwell, Carrier. So a

10 comment to your earlier question. So the PDF with

11 additional testing instructions should be -- that is

12 going to be necessary whether it is an AEDM or not;

13 right?

14 MS. BARHYDT: I would think so, but --

15 MR. WHITWELL: Yes. Yes.

16 MS. BARHYDT: -- is that something that

17 should be required? Should that be optional?

18 MR. WHITWELL: I think it is optional, but

19 it would be in the manufacturer's best interest to

20 provide it.

21 MR. KOJAK: This is Mike Kojak with UL. If

22 it is optional, then if there are special testing
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1 instructions that are needed by the third party,

2 according to the rules that you are making, then the

3 third party lab would then contact you. Of course,

4 then you would have to contact them. And then they

5 would understand that they are being tested at that

6 time if they don't give that information up front.

7 And they always withhold. They will always be

8 notified when we do the initial testing because we

9 need to get that information in order, you know, to

10 conduct the test.

11 MS. BARHYDT: So I think that that assumes

12 that it is not possible for the Department to conduct

13 the test.

14 MR. KOJAK: For the more sophisticated

15 equipment, there are usually things that have to be

16 done to the test unit that is not going to be just

17 common knowledge. You know, if you have to force it

18 into doing things that it's -- you know, for the test

19 standard, that information comes from the manufacturer

20 how to do that.

21 MS. BARHYDT: So it sounds like you think we

22 should require it?
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1 MR. KOJAK: I'm not saying either/or. I am

2 just saying that could happen.

3 MR. STANONIK: Frank Stanonik, AHRI. It

4 should be optional. First of all, this is a perfect

5 example. There are a lot of furnaces where you really

6 don't need any other extra information on how to run a

7 thermal efficiency test. And to this recent point

8 that came up, in some discussion we had -- and it will

9 come up again -- there certainly was acknowledged that

10 if a manufacturer was in a certification program, that

11 the only extra information, instructions that would be

12 used would be the same instructions that were provided

13 to that certification program for their testing.

14 And if that is something that we're going to

15 go in that direction, then it seems to me -- and that

16 is a big if, by the way. But if we are going in that

17 direction, it seems to me, that if there is need for

18 extra instructions, that this is the manufacturer's

19 opportunity to provide that information. And if it is

20 not, if they are not in a VICP and they don't submit

21 it when they submit the certification, then they have

22 lost the opportunity to provide that information to
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1 DOE.

2 MS. BARHYDT: So I'm not at all disagreeing

3 with you. My question is -- okay. So they submit a

4 certification report. They don't provide the

5 additional information. And the test lab tells us

6 that there is not enough information for them to

7 actually do the test. Then what?

8 MR. STANONIK: Well, again, assuming that it

9 is some special instruction that should have been

10 provided --

11 MS. BARHYDT: We make it up? DOE fills in

12 the blanks?

13 MR. STANONIK: I guess it's up to you. If

14 you are concerned about this issue that the

15 manufacturer has now got an alert that they are being

16 tested, which I am not sure I would think is a big

17 deal, you could say, "Well, you know, you provided no

18 additional instructions. We are testing it whichever

19 way we see fit." All right?

20 I mean, the reason I say it is optional I

21 think would be explained is that if there are

22 additional instructions that are required for testing
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1 your unit, you know, here is where you provide them.

2 MR. EISNER: Well, if the instructions said,

3 I mean, both could be combined into one if they said,

4 "The manufacturer shall supply any information it

5 believes is necessary for an inspector to test the

6 device. It would be optional. But you had better

7 submit it or you won't be able to complain about it

8 not being done in that way."

9 MR. THARP: Correct. Rusty Tharp. I

10 thought we agreed with the visitation/not visitation

11 stuff, that the manufacturer would supply the

12 information necessary to test it.

13 MS. BARHYDT: So all that conversation was

14 in the context of AEDM. So some of this discussion is

15 going to if you don't use an AEDM, what applies to the

16 people who take the testing path?

17 MR. THARP: Okay. Thank you.

18 MR. HON: Charlie Hon. I just heard

19 something I wasn't comfortable with at all. And that

20 was the comment that if independent verification

21 groups would be in the middle of this.

22 MS. BARHYDT: So what we had discussed
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1 previously was that DOE currently allows manufacturers

2 to submit certification reports through a third party

3 submitter and verification. Third party groups may

4 choose to serve as that third party submitter. I

5 think it might be a little bit of a distinction from

6 what Frank said. DOE's thought was that that third

7 party would submit that information to the Department

8 along with a certification report, not that the

9 Department would go to the third party to get that

10 information.

11 MR. HON: Thank you. That is what I was

12 concerned about because if they were going to hide

13 behind a third party and not submit information which

14 may be open to the Freedom of Information Act, those

15 of us who would choose not to use that verification

16 program would be submit to more possible issues.

17 MS. BARHYDT: So AHRI also collects the fuel

18 type and furnace type and configuration. And I will

19 admit that I have no idea what configuration means

20 there.

21 MR. STANONIK: Frank Stanonik, AHRI. I

22 think that is really a residual carryover from the
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1 residential market, where you have up flow, down flow,

2 horizontals. I guess all those configurations could

3 exist in the commercial application, but I will defer

4 to the manufacturers. I am not sure if you see much

5 of a spread.

6 MS. HOOTMAN: Yes. You have configurations

7 like horizontal air flow, vertical air flow, --

8 MR. STANONIK: Yes.

9 MS. HOOTMAN: -- you know, combinations of

10 the way --

11 MS. BARHYDT: Is there any reason --

12 MS. HOOTMAN: -- the air flow path goes

13 across the heat exchanger. And yes, in certain types,

14 you might make a distinction and have different

15 efficiencies for those. For the most part, I would

16 say we group them all together, but you could make

17 them distinctively different efficiencies if you

18 wanted to because there is a difference.

19 MS. BARHYDT: Is there any reason why the

20 Department would want to collect that information that

21 you can think of? I mean --

22 MS. HOOTMAN: You would need it for tests.
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1 You would need it to know how to set it up. And, you

2 know, it is going to matter how many duct diameters

3 they are going to need.

4 MS. BARHYDT: If we were testing something,

5 we would see what configuration it was.

6 MR. THARP: Not necessarily.

7 MS. BARHYDT: No? Okay.

8 MS. HOOTMAN: They are convertible from the

9 factory.

10 MS. BARHYDT: Okay.

11 MR. HON: Charlie Hon. This would also be

12 very beneficial for anyone who was searching the

13 database trying to find. Say they needed a horizontal

14 air flow unit in their design of their building. You

15 would only be looking at horizontal air flow designs

16 that way. They could compare apples to apples.

17 MS. BARHYDT: The thing I am thinking about,

18 though, is that it sounded like Jill was saying that

19 they may group some of these into one basic model.

20 And so you couldn't say that basic models were all

21 horizontal because it may include different

22 configurations within that basic model.
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1 MR. KOJAK: Yes. As a third party lab, you

2 are going to want to know especially a package unit,

3 if it's down flow or horizontal. And it is a lot less

4 expensive to test the horizontal air flow than a down

5 flow unit. So, you know, if the DOE were going to use

6 a third party test lab to contact that, I would assume

7 you would want it done in the most cost-effective way

8 to test. So it would be a horizontal air flow.

9 MR. EISNER: Harvey?

10 MR. SACHS: Laura, I'm hearing some implicit

11 concern that maybe it is a good idea to limit as much

12 as possible the DOE's information requests. And the

13 question is whether compliance is more difficult for

14 people who do not choose to go through the AHRI, for

15 example, process by any of the requirements that are

16 in that AHRI as now. If not, I am not sure how much

17 effort it is worth now to see what of that list we can

18 drop, which seems to be what you are trying to do.

19 You are trying to ask which of these --

20 MS. BARHYDT: It's not that I am trying to

21 drop things. I am trying to get people's input on

22 what they think is useful information for the
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1 Department to have in a certification. I am, frankly,

2 quite ambivalent as to which pieces we collect or

3 which pieces we don't. I want to know what

4 manufacturers think we need to know --

5 MR. SACHS: All right. That's helpful.

6 MS. BARHYDT: -- for them to have a valid

7 certification.

8 MR. SACHS: So maybe in the interest of

9 escaping, we could recast that. What of these

10 requirements on the whole page don't you like?

11 MR. EISNER: All right. Let's look at

12 Harvey's question. Is there anything on here that DOE

13 doesn't need?

14 MR. STEM: This basically just looks like

15 for boilers; right? So for each product class, you

16 are going to have its own specific list of

17 requirements that would be needed to adequately do a

18 test. So for this, it may be good for this very

19 specific product class, but, you know --

20 MS. BARHYDT: This is commercial warm air

21 furnaces.

22 MR. STEM: Okay.
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1 MR. EISNER: Is it easier to submit the same

2 information to DOE that you are submitting to AHRI

3 assuming it is, more efficient for you to just have

4 one list that you have to provide to both?

5 MR. THARP: Yes.

6 MS. HOOTMAN: Well, Rusty, I mean, we can

7 provide one to AHRI. If it means that AHRI only

8 passes part of that information on --

9 MR. THARP: Correct.

10 MS. HOOTMAN: -- I don't really care one way

11 or the other.

12 MR. THARP: That's what I was looking at,

13 yes

14 --

15 MS. HOOTMAN: Yes.

16 MR. THARP: -- answering yes to.

17 MR. SACHS: This is Harvey. My question was

18 actually, is there anything on this list which is

19 burdensome for people who are not participating in the

20 AHRI? I move that we let this list stand for

21 commercial warm air furnaces.

22 MS. BARHYDT: Okay. So commercial warm air
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1 furnaces include fuel type, furnace type,

2 configuration, input rating, thermal efficiency, as

3 well as the PDF with testing instructions. Is there

4 anything else the Department should collect?

5 MR. AMRANE: Not necessarily. I mean, I am

6 saying this information is already available on the

7 AHRI directory. I am not sure. If DOE doesn't

8 necessarily need the information, I am not sure why

9 this information should be submitted to DOE in the

10 first place.

11 MS. MEYERS: This is --

12 MS. BARHYDT: Not everybody is an AHRI

13 member.

14 MR. AMRANE: Right. But at the same time,

15 this is not something that you have required in the

16 past anyway.

17 MS. MEYERS: Yes. I don't think we need to

18 increase the regulations that DOE requires today. I

19 mean, I would vote that we keep it the way it is.

20 COURT REPORTER: Could you speak up, please?

21 MS. MEYERS: I don't see why we would

22 increase the information that we supply today. I
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1 don't know what value it adds. So it would be my

2 recommendation that we keep the information that we

3 submit to DOE as is shown on the list up there today,

4 right now: the thermal efficiency and the maximum

5 input capacity.

6 MR. EISNER: Does anybody disagree with

7 that, those two items being submitted? Leave that

8 bottom bullet, the last, third, bullet, alone right

9 now. AHRI lists. Should they just submit the two

10 items DOE is currently getting? Anybody disagree with

11 that?

12 MR. KOJAK: And this is just for furnaces.

13 MR. EISNER: Yes. Commercial warm air

14 furnaces.

15 MS. BARHYDT: And what fuel type?

16 MR. EISNER: I don't know why it is not

17 showing up.

18 MR. BALLO: If the standard differs by fuel

19 type, you would need to include fuel type in the

20 certification to DOE. I don't recall whether it does

21 or not, but --

22 MR. EISNER: It does not.
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1 MR. STANONIK: Frank Stanonik with AHRI. I

2 think this is maybe just a happenstance. When you

3 submit to DOE, you will have to identify whether it is

4 a gas furnace or an oil furnace for the different

5 product classes; right, Laura?

6 MS. BARHYDT: If they're different product

7 classes, yes.

8 MR. STANONIK: Yes. So, even though we say

9 fuel type, DOE doesn't say it because it is inherent

10 in the reporting process.

11 MS. BARHYDT: Right.

12 MR. STANONIK: So the only thing -- and

13 personally I would have to go back and look. I am not

14 sure, again, on personal products, why we are saying

15 furnace type. I am not sure what that is. But,

16 putting that aside, what you are really talking about

17 is whether we are put configuration or not. It boils

18 down to that.

19 MR. EISNER: Give everybody a chance to look

20 up this information.

21 MR. KOJAK: This is Mike Kojak with UL.

22 I've got a question. So we don't have a lot of
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1 experience testing furnaces, but there are no special

2 instructions for any lab, for any type of furnace from

3 the manufacturer that is needed?

4 MR. EISNER: You're talking about the last

5 bullet?

6 MR. KOJAK: Yes.

7 MR. EISNER: I mean, I think the issue here,

8 if I understand this correctly, is, do you simply want

9 to give them the discretion to submit what they

10 believe is necessary, they, the company, for an

11 effective test to be done? That gives you the right

12 to submit it, but it is in your discretion as to

13 whether you provide it. It would probably foreclose

14 you from complaining that they didn't test it properly

15 if you didn't give them any information about testing.

16 Did you find the answer to --

17 MS. BARHYDT: Yes. I found what I was

18 looking for.

19 MS. MEYERS: Okay. So the PDF with

20 additional testing and instructions as necessary I

21 thought we had decided would be optional per the

22 manufacturers.
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1 MR. EISNER: An option can, in effect, be a

2 requirement. It could say something like, "The

3 manufacturer shall submit any information it believes

4 is necessary for an effective test." So if they don't

5 do something you thought they should have done, it is

6 a little late for you to come back in and say, "You

7 didn't do it the right way" because you didn't tell

8 them what was necessary. It is giving you the option

9 to submit whatever you want.

10 MS. MEYERS: Right. So it's up to the

11 manufacturer whether they decide to provide that PDF.

12 I mean, for some of my products, I will definitely

13 make sure I have that PDF with additional testing.

14 Would I put it on every one of my products? Probably

15 not because it is not really needed. So my

16 recommendation was that the DOE regulation should

17 require the thermal efficiency, the maximum rated

18 input Btus, and then a PDF with additional testing

19 instructions if the manufacturer so desires.

20 MS. BARHYDT: Does everybody agree?

21 MR. EISNER: There is a difference between

22 what I think is on the table. One was, is this
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1 necessary for an effective test, as opposed to what

2 they desire to submit? Some people had said, "Well,

3 there will be a disincentive to submit the information

4 until the agency tells you they are going to be doing

5 a test." So it is purely optional, but it is what you

6 think is necessary for the test to be done effectively

7 or it could be completely optional. Submit whatever

8 information you desire. Those are two very different

9 standards, though.

10 MS. BARHYDT: Karen, are you disagreeing

11 with Neil's description or were you shorthanding the -

12 -

13 MS. MEYERS: I think I was shorthanding it.

14 MS. BARHYDT: Okay.

15 MS. MEYERS: So I don't know that I disagree

16 with you.

17 MR. EISNER: Karen is saying we should have

18 three things: this, this, and a PDF with whatever

19 information the company believes is necessary for an

20 effective test. Does anybody disagree with those

21 three things?

22 MS. BARHYDT: Part of the class is already -
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1 -

2 MS. MEYERS: Commercial warm air furnaces.

3 MR. EISNER: Just commercial warm air

4 furnaces.

5 MS. BARHYDT: Inherent. That is what they

6 were saying.

7 MR. EISNER: Nobody disagrees? Is somebody

8 going to --

9 MS. BARHYDT: Okay.

10 MR. EISNER: So it is three things, and we

11 are finished with this slide.

12 MS. HOOTMAN: So type, furnace type, is

13 weatherized or non-weatherized. Don't you need to

14 know that?

15 PARTICIPANT: No.

16 MS. HOOTMAN: Don't you have the different

17 levels for --

18 MS. BARHYDT: That's not for commercial.

19 MS. HOOTMAN: Only in the res, you have the

20 --

21 MS. BARHYDT: Yes.

22 MS. HOOTMAN: Okay.
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1 MR. EISNER: Moving on?

2 MS. BARHYDT: Yep. Commercial packaged

3 boilers. AHRI collects material, location, fuel type,

4 heating medium, input gross output, combustion

5 efficiency, thermal efficiency, steam, water, ignition

6 type, draft type, control, and it says condensing with

7 a question mark.

8 MS. TUCKER: That's whether or not it is

9 condensing or not.

10 MS. BARHYDT: Okay. Whether or not it is

11 condensing. DOE regulations currently require

12 combustion efficiency in percent or the thermal

13 efficiency in percent as required and the maximum

14 rated input capacity in BTUs per hour.

15 So since this list is shorter, do you want

16 to flip back to the AHRI list?

17 MR. HALLEY: Geoff Halley with ABMA. I was

18 wondering if somebody could give me a definition of

19 gross output on the AHRI list.

20 MR. STANONIK: Frank Stanonik, AHRI. It is

21 defined in our rating standard. I would have to look

22 it up, but, I mean, it is a calculation. It is a
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1 straight calculation. I don't know it off the top of

2 my head. It is probably something like the efficiency

3 times the input or something, but it is just a simple,

4 straightforward calculation.

5 MR. HALLEY: It doesn't include radiation

6 loss maybe.

7 MR. STANONIK: I would have to go back and

8 look at it.

9 MR. HALLEY: Okay.

10 MR. STANONIK: It's not one I have back in

11 my mind. I can send it to you. It's no secret.

12 MR. HALLEY: Well, I can look it, I guess.

13 MS. MEYERS: So this is Karen Meyers

14 representing RayPak at this point, which builds these

15 units. And I would ditto my motion from before and

16 say that I believe that we should stick with what the

17 DOE regulations currently require along with a PDF

18 with additional testing instructions as necessary to

19 perform an effective test.

20 MR. MYERS: I'm sorry. I didn't hear the

21 first part of that. You are proposing what?

22 MS. MEYERS: That we stick with what the
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1 current DOE regulations require, which if she puts up

2 the next slide, it will show you, so those things,

3 along with a PDF with additional testing instructions

4 as necessary to conduct an effective test.

5 MR. MYERS: (Inaudible).

6 Optional? Okay.

7 MR. EISNER: It's the same as what we --

8 MR. CYMBALSKY: It is the same. She's

9 echoing what she said for the last product.

10 MS. MEYERS: Yes.

11 MR. CYMBALSKY: So essentially, what we're

12 doing now plus if the manufacturer wants to provide

13 the PDF for the test instructions.

14 MR. STANONIK: Right. Frank Stanonik with

15 AHRI. And again, we get this inherent in the DOE

16 regulations. You will have to be told whether it is

17 gas or oil, steam, or hot water because it is part of

18 the product classes.

19 MR. EISNER: So does anybody think they need

20 to get more information essentially than they are

21 currently getting plus the PDF?

22 MR. HALLEY: Geoff Halley with ABMA again.
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1 I am happy with the DOE requirement as it is there and

2 the PDF, but I would like to point out that in the

3 sort of ABMA-represented group of boiler

4 manufacturers, the normal rating unit is the boiler

5 horsepower, which is an output, not an input, unit. I

6 mean, we can give either one. It doesn't matter. But

7 if it's rated in output, boiler horsepower, or pounds

8 of steam per hour, or whatever, then if you've got a

9 high efficiency, higher than the DOE requirement, you

10 can cut the input down for the given output, which is

11 a benefit from a fuel usage and emissions point of

12 view.

13 MS. BARHYDT: So we might be able to also

14 collect output? We have to collect input because the

15 standards are written in terms of input.

16 MR. EISNER: Does anybody else believe we

17 should add output?

18 MR. MYERS: This is Frank Myers, PVI

19 Industries. Output is available. Anybody that can

20 take the BTU input and the percent efficiency and

21 generate the output. So this is the commercial

22 market. So that is what they are used to seeing.
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1 MR. HALLEY: Yes. I'm not saying we need

2 it, but I just wanted to point it out, basically.

3 MR. EISNER: Again, going back to what Karen

4 said, the two things that DOE collects now plus the

5 same sentence for the third thing that we put on the

6 prior slide, this one is for commercial packaged

7 boilers. Does anyone disagree with that suggestion,

8 those three items be collected?

9 MR. MOLVIE: This is Pete Molvie. I tend to

10 agree with leaving it the way it is with the

11 additional three items. I just wanted to make a

12 comment on Geoff Halley's pointing out that a lot of

13 the industry uses boiler horsepower or an output

14 rating. The boiler horsepower really is a nominal

15 rating that is at and from 212 degrees Fahrenheit.

16 Even though that is a commonly used industry rating

17 capacity, it almost confuses things in my mind. So I

18 tend to agree with leaving it with the input capacity

19 the way it is right now. So I support it, that

20 motion.

21 MR. EISNER: Harvey?

22 MR. SACHS: I think, if I am right, Karen's
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1 comments implicitly included that the fuel type is a

2 matter of product class. So it has to be submitted.

3 So that is --

4 MR. HURST: Can you say it louder?

5 MS. TUCKER: Since you are submitting

6 product class, you will be able to determine the fuel

7 type without us having to ask for it separately.

8 MR. EISNER: Okay. Okay? No objections?

9 Next slide: commercial water heaters.

10 MS. BARHYDT: Okay. Commercial water

11 heaters. AHRI includes energy source, heater type,

12 rated storage volume, input, thermal efficiency,

13 standby loss, and whether or not it is eligible for a

14 tax credit.

15 MR. HON: It's listed.

16 MS. BARHYDT: DOE regulations require

17 different things for different types of products. So

18 for commercial electric storage water heaters, we

19 collect maximum standby loss in percent per hour and

20 the measured storage volume in gallons.

21 For commercial gas-fired and oil-fired

22 storage water heaters, we collect minimum thermal
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1 efficiency, maximum standby loss, rated storage

2 volume, measured storage volume, and the nameplate

3 input rat.

4 For commercial gas-fired and oil-fired

5 instantaneous water heaters greater than or equal to

6 ten gallons and gas-fired and oil-fired hot water

7 supply boilers greater than or equal to 10 gallons, we

8 collect minimum thermal efficiency, maximum standby

9 loss, rated storage volume, and nameplate input rate.

10 MR. KLEISS: Jeff Kleiss, Lochinvar. I just

11 want to point out that reporting the minimum thermal

12 efficiency is inconsistent with the other programs and

13 would suggest that we pull that out of the list.

14 MR. EISNER: Is there any reason you need

15 that, Laura?

16 MS. BARHYDT: I'm checking. Is that the

17 standard?

18 MR. CYMBALSKY: It's the standard. The

19 standard is written in that. So I think that is

20 important.

21 MS. BARHYDT: I'm checking.

22 MR. STANONIK: Frank Stanonik, AHRI. Are we
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1 getting hung up on semantics here? The efficiency

2 rating is thermal efficiency. So you are going to

3 report the thermal efficiency of the product. Maybe

4 it's not the minimum thermal efficiency. It's thermal

5 efficiency.

6 MS. BARHYDT: Yes. It is whatever rating

7 you want.

8 MR. CYMBALSKY: Thank you.

9 MS. BARHYDT: We need to --

10 MR. STANONIK: Yes.

11 MR. CYMBALSKY: Sorry about that.

12 MALE SPEAKER: Can we take "minimum" out?

13 MR. CYMBALSKY: Take out the word "minimum."

14 MS. BARHYDT: Yes.

15 MR. STANONIK: And then the other thing is

16 except for commercial electric, for the other

17 varieties, other fuels of commercial water heaters,

18 there is no need to have the measured storage volume

19 anymore. The standby loss' compliance requirements

20 for the other products is based on rated volume. So

21 you really don't need the measured volume for the gas

22 and oil-fired. Electric, you do because the
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1 requirement is still based on measured volume.

2 MS. BARHYDT: I think we're going to want to

3 collect the storage volume because there is an

4 exclusion for water heaters and hot water supply of

5 boilers having more than 140 gallons of storage

6 capacity. And then there is also the requirement of

7 it being ten gallons or more. So usually wherever the

8 standards start including some kind of a metric, we

9 usually collect information so that we can check

10 against that.

11 MR. STANONIK: Yes, but -- Frank Stanonik,

12 AHRI. The reasons you cited will be recognizable from

13 the rated storage also.

14 MS. BARHYDT: Okay. So you were saying

15 rated only, not measured?

16 MR. STANONIK: Oh, yes, yes, yes. No. Yes.

17 You need to --

18 MS. BARHYDT: Okay. Sorry. I --

19 MR. STANONIK: I'm sorry. Yes. You need --

20 MS. BARHYDT: I misheard that. Okay.

21 MR. STANONIK: -- a storage volume number.

22 I'm just saying you don't need both. And in this
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1 case, you don't need the measure.

2 MS. BARHYDT: So for electric storage water

3 heaters, it's in measured. So are you saying keep it

4 for electric and --

5 MR. STANONIK: You have to keep that one --

6 MS. BARHYDT: Okay.

7 MR. STANONIK: -- because the specification

8 is used as that value.

9 MR. KLEISS: Jeff Kleiss, Lochinvar. I

10 think that, actually, we do need both measured and

11 rated because of the different determinations of

12 minimum standby loss, actual calculation of the

13 standby loss, as well as the determination of

14 instantaneous versus storage type. So I think we

15 actually do need both of those.

16 MS. BARHYDT: I think the Department is

17 interested in collecting that.

18 MR. CYMBALSKY: I'm very interested in the

19 measured versus the rated.

20 MR. STANONIK: Frank Stanonik, AHRI. Okay.

21 But I believe what we are talking about is what is

22 required, as opposed to what you might be interested
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1 in. Look it, that is a lot of information you are

2 asking from the water heater manufacturers anyhow.

3 And the measured storage volume for the gas and oil, I

4 agree it is a curiosity, but it is not critical to --

5 MR. CYMBALSKY: Well, this is nothing new;

6 right? This is something we already -- it is part of

7 the reg. We are not adding to the list. Is that

8 right?

9 MR. STANONIK: Well, that's what I'm saying.

10 I think you did.

11 MR. SACHS: Frank, the whole list is a

12 little bit misleading. The worst case is five bits of

13 data for the commercial gas-fired and oil-fired

14 storage. And you are saying 20 percent of that

15 information isn't necessary.

16 MR. STANONIK: I'm saying you do need the

17 rated storage volume in order to determine whether

18 your standby loss meets the federal requirement. You

19 do not need the measured storage.

20 MR. SACHS: This is Harvey Sachs. And it is

21 after my nap time. And I am having some trouble

22 thinking about how I could gain it if I had the rated
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1 but not the measured. What happens if I rate a 60-

2 gallon as a 30 or vice versa?

3 MR. STANONIK: I'm sorry. This has been a

4 debate that has gone on since the first water heater

5 requirements. Okay? There are other standards in

6 place that in the case of gas and oil-fired storage

7 water heaters restrict how much the rated volume can

8 be over the measured volume.

9 MR. SACHS: That's helpful. I wasn't there

10 when the world was created, Father Frank.

11 Thank you. That is helpful.

12 MR. STANONIK: Essentially, it is covered in

13 the safety standard. So if we are talking about the -

14 - I have got to get my numbers right here. The gas

15 products basically cannot exceed -- the rated volume

16 can't be more than five percent of the actual volume.

17 Oil, it is either five or ten percent. Electric, it

18 is ten percent.

19 MR. KLEISS: Jeff Kleiss, Lochinvar. And,

20 as they were talking through that, I do believe that

21 the storage volume is necessary. The measured storage

22 volume is necessary and used in the determination of
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1 the standby loss. And, as such, it would be just like

2 any other value that is used to determine the standby

3 loss and probably doesn't need to be reported from the

4 standpoint of we would be reporting the standby loss.

5 MR. EISNER: What's your reaction to that?

6 MS. BARHYDT: So -- and I don't know about

7 for this product, but I know that for other products,

8 we have had an issue where measured volume has been an

9 issue. And I think that it would be useful to the

10 Department to collect the measured volume from what

11 the manufacturers believe is the measured volume just

12 because that is used in the test procedure for

13 calculations. And so it would help us to have that

14 information for what the manufacturer believes is the

15 measured volume whenever we are doing verification

16 testing so we can kind of check ourselves against

17 whatever the manufacturer has certified.

18 MR. KLEISS: Jeff Kleiss, Lochinvar. The

19 only reason I am furrowing my brow at that is just is

20 that different from any other parameter on any other

21 product that you would want to check against.

22 MS. BARHYDT: We frequently do collect --
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1 so, again, we haven't been getting certifications from

2 you guys for commercial products, but for a lot of

3 other products, we do frequently collect other pieces

4 of information that go into the calculations.

5 MR. KLEISS: Jeff Kleiss, Lochinvar. I may

6 suggest that this be something that we take home as

7 homework to investigate and double check where this is

8 referenced and needed and also find out if there is

9 any other industry objection. I don't think that this

10 should be a big stopper. This is not --

11 MR. MYERS: This is Frank Myers, PVI. And I

12 think this is probably one of the reasons that we are

13 around the room. It seemed like a simple thing, "Hey,

14 we just want a little extra information," but when you

15 are building custom 5,000-gallon water heaters, just

16 go ahead and measure that amount of water, it is not

17 as easy as it sounds. Putting water in for testing is

18 one thing, but actually measuring the volume of water

19 that goes in, there's no -- and there is also no plus

20 or minus what tolerance, what temperature. So I

21 suggest that we not do that, at least on the larger

22 equipment.
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1 One piece of information that would be

2 useful having to do with volume is a statement, "Are

3 you or are you not above 140 gallons?" because there

4 is a specific requirement tied to 140 gallons. Then

5 if there was a desire and a need to get some volume

6 information below, then maybe we can have a

7 conversation about the products that are less than 140

8 gallons that have standby loss and that sort of thing.

9 At least that is a discussion that we can have.

10 But I don't think getting the measured

11 volume is worth the effort to do. And, additionally,

12 as you get into the larger sizes, it is not an easy

13 thing. And we don't have any test method for how you

14 do that.

15 MR. STANONIK: Frank Stanonik, AHRI. Laura,

16 to your point about the measured volume, when you are

17 doing testing, in fact, when you do testing, you will

18 be required to measure the volume of that specific

19 unit that you picked up. So you will know the

20 measured volume of that unit.

21 But to ask the manufacturer to give you the

22 measured volume of the model, in fact, you could do
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1 that as easily by simply taking -- in most cases, take

2 the rated storage volume, the case for gas product,

3 multiply it by .95. And I would say 98 percent of the

4 time, that is probably close to the measured volume of

5 the unit. Well, I'll back off of that. Maybe 90

6 percent of the time because commercial, you have all

7 of these tubes in there. And so they take up space

8 depending whether it's 5 fluid tubes or 12 fluid tubes

9 or 18. And that changes the measured volume. But you

10 would find all of those in a 100-gallon water heater.

11 It is not going to, I would say it is not really going

12 to, tell you as much as you think it is going to tell

13 you.

14 MR. KLEISS: Jeff Kleiss, Lochinvar.

15 Doesn't this also kind of fly in the face of what we

16 are talking about with AEDM? And how do I report

17 measured storage volume on something that I have

18 calculated but with an AEDM?

19 MR. EISNER: Is this something you want to

20 think about more?

21 MS. BARHYDT: Yes. Any other comments for

22 us to consider?
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1 MR. EISNER: Is there anything else that

2 should come off the list? Anything that should be

3 added to the list besides the one we have been adding

4 to all the others at the last bullet? Yes?

5 MR. SACHS: Harvey Sachs. On slide 35 --

6 MS. TUCKER: This one?

7 MR. SACHS: Yes. I'm a little confused, I

8 think, by the third dashed bullet about

9 "instantaneous" or tankless "water heaters greater

10 than or equal to 10 gallons." Was that supposed to be

11 less than or what am I missing?

12 MR. KLEISS: No, sir.

13 MR. SACHS: Okay. Please help me understand

14 that.

15 MR. KLEISS: Jeff Kleiss, Lochinvar.

16 "Instantaneous" is defined as anything with 4,000 BTUs

17 per --

18 MR. SACHS: (Inaudible).

19 MR. KLEISS: Yes, sir, or more. So you

20 could have a storage -- in fact, we manufacture some

21 products that have over 100 gallons of storage, but

22 they have enough Btu input that they are considered,
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1 classified as instantaneous products.

2 MR. SACHS: Are they listed as explosives?

3 MR. KLEISS: No, sir.

4 MR. SACHS: Thank you.

5 MR. EISNER: Anything else? Anything else

6 that should be added or deleted?

7 So if I understand where we are, we would

8 include everything on the list with the one question

9 remaining about the measured storage volume, where

10 that is listed. We would add the last one about

11 "provide such other information as is necessary for

12 effective testing." Anybody disagree with that, with

13 the one caveat on the storage?

14 MR. MYERS: There was one other possibility

15 that I had put out on the table, and that was to

16 include a "Yes"/"No" question over 140 --

17 MR. EISNER: Which --

18 MR. MYERS: -- gallons or not.

19 MR. EISNER: Yes. Make sure we've got that.

20 MR. MYERS: So "Yes"/"No."

21 MR. EISNER: Let me throw that in, the

22 "Yes"/"No" question on over 140. Does anybody
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1 disagree with that?

2 MS. MEYERS: I will have to get back on that

3 one.

4 MR. EISNER: Okay. So we have got two

5 caveats on this.

6 MR. KLEISS: Also, there is no

7 classification for the instantaneous units with ten

8 gallons or less.

9 MS. TUCKER: Next page.

10 MR. KLEISS: It is? Very top. Sorry.

11 MR. EISNER: Less than 10 gallons.

12 MR. KLEISS: My mistake.

13 MR. SACHS: Frank, this is Harvey Sachs with

14 a question. The 140 gallon is ASME, Frank?

15 MR. MYERS: No. If your product is over 140

16 gallons, then you don't have to comply with the

17 standby loss test. You can provide R-12.5 insulation.

18 MR. SACHS: Thanks. I had forgotten that.

19 MR. EISNER: Okay. Do I hear any objections

20 to that with the two caveats on the "Yes"/"No"

21 question in the storage. Okay. So that has got to be

22 added to our list to get back to tomorrow. People can
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1 get answers by tomorrow, including DOE? Does DOE

2 think it will be ready tomorrow or do you need more

3 time to talk about that issue?

4 MS. BARHYDT: We'll probably be ready

5 tomorrow.

6 MR. EISNER: Okay. Will everybody else be

7 ready on their issues?

8 Okay. Let's go on to the next one.

9 MS. BARHYDT: Whoa.

10 MS. TUCKER: Sorry.

11 MS. BARHYDT: Wait. We didn't step through

12 all the slides for the commercial water heaters. So,

13 as Jeff mentioned, there are less than ten gallons.

14 And then there are also the unfired hot water storage

15 tanks. And, given that Jeff asked a lot of questions

16 several weeks ago, I just want to make sure we are all

17 clear on why we are collecting some of the things we

18 are collecting for unfired.

19 MR. STANONIK: Frank Stanonik, AHRI. No

20 argument that DOE can collect the information for the

21 unfired. There is a regulation. I think the issue is

22 and our position is that no testing is required
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1 because, in fact, the insulation is a prescriptive

2 requirement. And so I think that's not -- well, maybe

3 it is part of this, what information is required, but

4 we still maintain that there is no testing required to

5 establish compliance. It is just a question of, do

6 you have enough insulation on the product which the R

7 value comes from your vendor?

8 MR. EISNER: Does this regulation, where it

9 currently sets out what information is required, say

10 anything about testing?

11 MS. BARHYDT: One second.

12 MR. EISNER: TFR break.

13 MS. BARHYDT: Okay. Sorry. What was the

14 question? Sorry. I was writing notes down.

15 MR. STANONIK: It was actually more of a

16 statement.

17 MS. BARHYDT: Sorry.

18 MR. STANONIK: That's okay. No. What I was

19 saying was that we don't contest that DOE should get

20 information on unfired storage tanks. There is a

21 federal requirement. Our position is that it is a

22 prescriptive requirement, it has to be insulated to X
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1 level, and that there is no testing required by the

2 manufacturer to establish compliance. It is merely

3 did you get enough insulation, whatever the R value is

4 you get from your vendor, and then did you put enough

5 on there?

6 MS. BARHYDT: So we would agree that the

7 manufacturers are not required to do the testing

8 themselves, but we do think that somebody should have

9 tested it to make sure that the R value is actually

10 not just a made-up number.

11 MR. STANONIK: Well, yes, but --

12 MS. BARHYDT: But yes. We agree the

13 manufacturers can rely on the representations of their

14 suppliers.

15 MR. STANONIK: Yes, exactly. I am saying

16 understand that there is a contractual agreement

17 there. The manufacturer is buying either this

18 insulation, whether it is fiberglass blanket or an

19 insulation- blowing foam system, with the

20 understanding that you are going to provide to me, in

21 fact, what I need, which is, let's say, a foam that

22 has an R-8 per inch or whatever. I mean, it is
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1 critical to the manufacturer that he gets what he is

2 paying for.

3 MR. HON: Charlie Hon, True Manufacturing.

4 That's a loaded gun because thermal insulation not

5 only dependent on the product you buy but also the

6 technique you use to put it in. If you overpack a

7 unit, you will change your efficiencies tremendously.

8 So it is a process control as well as a purchase

9 control. So you will have to be very careful of that

10 because we run into the same thing in refrigeration.

11 If we choose to foam our cabinets differently, we can

12 change the insulation value by 20-25 percent.

13 MR. KLEISS: Jeff Kleiss, Lochinvar. There

14 are a number of things. Number one, what you, Laura,

15 had just said about the manufacturer being able to

16 rely on suppliers' claimed ratings is not consistent

17 with what I have been told previously. And there is a

18 problem with reporting in the DOE template in that we

19 are required to indicate how many units we have tested

20 to generate that data. So I don't falsify the data

21 that I'm supporting to the federal government, I would

22 like clarification on that point.
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1 MS. BARHYDT: So the manufacturer should

2 ensure that there has been testing done. They are

3 allowed to rely on their suppliers, but they need to

4 make sure there is something behind those claims. And

5 so typically that involves testing by somebody. So it

6 is still the manufacturer certifying that, to the best

7 of your knowledge and belief and based on the

8 information available to you, so that you are still

9 certifying it.

10 MR. KLEISS: Jeff Kleiss. So I'm required

11 to have a certain number of test reports or, again, if

12 I am going to report that how many units have been

13 tested, what is my responsibility?

14 MS. BARHYDT: Let me get back to you on

15 that. I want to make sure that I don't contradict

16 anything that was said in the rulemaking.

17 MR. KLEISS: Okay. Again, Jeff Kleiss. In

18 moving on, then, if we are ready to, the measured

19 storage volume in gallons for commercial unfired water

20 storage tanks, there is no standby heat loss that is

21 done. There is no efficiency metric that is based on

22 the storage volume of unfired storage tanks, and there
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1 is no methodology test method for determining that.

2 So I would recommend that that is removed from the

3 list.

4 MS. BARHYDT: Okay. We'll talk about that

5 one since it has been suggested that we drop it for

6 most of the different types.

7 MR. EISNER: Anything else?

8 MR. BALLO: I just had a question about the

9 instantaneous models. For those more than 140 gallons

10 to avoid the standby loss requirement, there is also a

11 requirement for not having a standing pilot, fire

12 damper, or fan-assisted combustion. Is there any sort

13 of certification that I don't have a standing pilot or

14 --

15 MS. BARHYDT: I have a note to myself that

16 we need to look at that.

17 MR. BALLO: Okay.

18 MR. EISNER: Okay. So a bunch of things

19 have to be checked overnight on this.

20 MS. BARHYDT: Yes.

21 MR. EISNER: Anything else on commercial

22 water heaters?
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1 MR. SACHS: Harvey Sachs. On the unfired

2 tanks, I have a mental model of these things. And I'm

3 not what the PDF with additional testing instructions

4 would contain.

5 MS. BARHYDT: We're giving people the

6 option.

7 MR. SACHS: Righty, tighty.

8 MR. EISNER: CRE.

9 MS. BARHYDT: Okay. CRE. AHRI collects

10 operating temperature, refrigerant type, volume,

11 adjusted volume, TDEC, TDEC per volume, TDA, TDEC per

12 TDA, CDEC -- okay; you can read all of the letters --

13 merchandiser lights, merchandiser heat, number of

14 shelves, shelf lights, fan motor type, defrost method,

15 and doors.

16 DOE regulations currently require for self17 contained commercial refrigerators with solid doors,

18 commercial refrigerators with transparent doors,

19 commercial freezers with solid doors, and commercial

20 freezers with transparent doors, the maximum daily

21 energy consumption and the chilled or frozen

22 compartment volume in cubic feet; for self-contained
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1 commercial refrigerator-freezers with solids doors,

2 the maximum average daily energy consumption and the

3 adjusted volume in cubic feet.

4 For remote condensing -- okay -- for a lot

5 of different types of equipment, -- you can read the

6 list -- maximum daily energy consumption, total

7 display area or chilled volume as necessary to

8 demonstrate compliance with standards, the rating

9 temperature, the operating temperature range, the

10 equipment family designation, and the condensing unit

11 configuration.

12 MR. HON: Charlie Hon. A couple of things.

13 Number one is under the second bullet on the first

14 page, "maximum average daily energy consumption,"

15 that's a single-day task. It should not be average.

16 Above it is the same. It is different up above. It

17 says, "maximum daily energy consumption." That one

18 should be the same.

19 MS. BARHYDT: Yes.

20 MS. TUCKER: I took the "average" out.

21 MR. HON: Okay. I just saw it disappear,

22 yes. Wonderful.
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1 MS. TUCKER: Good.

2 MR. SACHS: Laura? This is Harvey Sachs. I

3 am a little pedantic, but can you change the word

4 "solid" to the word "nontransparent"? I'm having

5 trouble visualizing the liquid in gas phase doors.

6 It's either transparent or not transparent.

7 None of these are liquid doors; are they? Oh, that's

8 next year.

9 MS. BARHYDT: So, unfortunately, Harvey, the

10 standards are written as having either solid doors or

11 transparent doors. So we are stuck with solid doors.

12 MR. SACHS: You could just define the term,

13 though.

14 MS. BARHYDT: I believe solid doors is

15 actually defined.

16 MR. STEM: Would you have any issue with

17 flow rate for the remote condensers, refrigerant flow

18 rates? I'm just thinking the more information we could

19 get ahead of time, the better.

20 MR. HON: Charlie Hon. The remote

21 condensers are not under the standard.

22 MR. SHEBIK: Ron Shebik with Hussmann. When
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1 you say, "flow rate," are you looking for the like Btu

2 per linear foot?

3 MR. STEM: Yes, the refrigerant flow rate.

4 MR. HON: Yes.

5 MR. STEM: Yes, pounds per hour, everyone.

6 MR. HON: Charlie Hon. That's dependent on

7 a lot of other variables: depending on the

8 temperature of the fluids and the nature of the fluid.

9 So it can be changed a great deal and not really give

10 you any real information. The standard itself has a

11 calculation built into it to allot for that.

12 MR. STEM: Okay.

13 MR. SHEBIK: Thinking about that. I mean,

14 we

15 --

16 MR. HON: Charlie Hon again. If it's 134A

17 flowing through, it is going to give you different

18 numbers than 404A flowing through the same volume.

19 MR. SHEBIK: Ron Shebik, Hussmann. So

20 you're saying we had specified refrigerant with the

21 flow rate if that is needed.

22 MR. HON: The standard has built-in
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1 calculations to take all of that into account and

2 actually give a final number.

3 MR. STEM: Even if it was like in that PDF

4 document that you're talking about, the optional

5 supplemental data to help, you know, make sure that

6 you have a sanity check when you are running a test.

7 That's just a piece of information that wasn't up

8 there I thought might be useful.

9 MS. DANE: This is Mary from Traulsen. The

10 only thing about providing those PDF documents is that

11 is quite burdensome to put together. And I know that

12 they were saying, "Well, then you don't have a right

13 to complain if we do the test setup wrong," but every

14 single model gets set up differently and the amount of

15 information. Are we talking about going from where to

16 put a thermal couple all the way up to, you know,

17 where to set it? I mean, that is a lot of

18 information. So if we accidentally don't put

19 something in a PDF and the test is still set up wrong

20 --

21 MR. KOJAK: This is Mike Kojak with UL.

22 That wasn't the original intent because that is what I
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1 brought up originally. It is more for the HVAC group

2 because a lot of -- if it's a high-efficiency unit,

3 you have to force the unit, let's say, to run at a

4 high speed, a medium speed, and low speed if it's

5 variable speed. And no one knows how to do that but

6 the manufacturer. So those are the kinds of things

7 that I was looking for for the additional test

8 instructions, not so much the CRE, because the test is

9 -- the setup is very descriptive exactly where you put

10 the thermal couples, how you build it, you know, how

11 you load it, everything. So for the CRE stuff, I

12 wouldn't see a big deal with that. It was mostly

13 geared towards the HVAC portion of this.

14 MR. STEM: Yes. I don't agree with that

15 simply because, especially with remotes, you may have

16 a specific way you want to set charging instruction on

17 that condenser; right? And I've heard it's standard

18 lab practice to put the thermocouple here or here or

19 here. I mean, there are 14 different places we could

20 put it to set a super heat on the condenser or however

21 you want to do it. So any information like that that

22 would be applicable for remote condensers, CRE would
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1 be helpful, but it's stuff that's maybe not -- I don't

2 know. I don't know how you determine whether it's out

3 of the normal or not.

4 MR. SHEBIK: Ron Shebik with Hussmann.

5 Based on what you are saying, I am not sure where you

6 draw the line because, in addition to your sensors, I

7 mean, you could be looking at discharge temperatures

8 and a lot of other things. I am not sure if everyone

9 publishes that information or not. We publish a lot

10 of it on our products, but I can't speak for all

11 manufacturers.

12 MR. STEM: Yes. Several people put it in

13 their insulation manuals, you know, how charting

14 instructions are clearly defined but they are several

15 that do not. And then it never fails. You know, if

16 it is two or three are a little bit vague. And we

17 always choose the wrong one, you know, invariably.

18 MR. KLEISS: Jeff Kleiss, Lochinvar. Just a

19 question to the manufacturer of this equipment. Is

20 that something that is more of a procedural thing that

21 needs to be clarified in the test procedure and should

22 not necessarily be a manufacturer's responsibility to
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1 specify?

2 MR. SHEBIK: I can't -- I wouldn't go as far

3 as to say it is a procedural issue. I am trying to

4 figure out how to get that point across. Like I said,

5 most of our technical publications have all of the

6 information. And they have that information. So it

7 is readily available. I'm sorry. I'm not sure if

8 it's a procedure issue or not. I don't consider it a

9 procedure issue.

10 MR. AMRANE: This is Karim Amrane with AHRI.

11 I think we should keep it optional like we did for the

12 Department. I mean, it is up to the manufacturers.

13 If they feel that this information should be in the

14 PDF or not, I mean, then at least --

15 MR. SHEBIK: I mean, I guess I don't see the

16 problem with including it, but I can't speak for

17 everyone on that if it's -- I wouldn't think it would

18 be an issue.

19 MR. AMRANE: You should leave it optional.

20 MS. DANE: I just want to make sure that we

21 can complain if we need to complain. It's my favorite

22 part of the whole day.
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1 MR. HON: Charlie Hon. I have a couple of

2 questions just for technical reasons. Operating

3 temperature ranges on page 39 of the original

4 documents, operating temperature range is about 32,

5 below 32, and below -5. Those are near some ranges

6 that are common but not necessarily falling into the

7 test standard requirements. It is -15 testing, not -

8 5.

9 MS. BARHYDT: So those are examples.

10 Manufacturers could put whatever --

11 MR. HON: Okay. Refrigerator freezer and

12 ice cream freezer is generally what is in the code;

13 right?

14 MS. BARHYDT: Yes, I think so.

15 MR. SHEBIK: Right above it, we have rating

16 temperature in degrees Fahrenheit, one degree or -15.0

17 and 38. So is there a reason to have both? I think

18 the operating range would just be more confusing.

19 MS. BARHYDT: So the rating temperature is a

20 single point; whereas, an operating range would be

21 what the full range of what the product is intended to

22 operate at.
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1 MR. SHEBIK: Sure. Right. But if you are

2 testing at -15, you know it is an ice ring. If you

3 are testing at zero, you know it is a low temp. If

4 you are testing at 38, you know it's a medium temp.

5 MR. HON: Ron, this is Charlie Hon. There

6 are going to be some variations in that because of

7 certain variations which are in the test procedure or

8 going to have special test requirements, such as

9 floral cabinets, which are tested warmer than 38

10 degrees; ice storage cabinets, which are tested in the

11 low 20s. And there are a couple of other categories,

12 but they do pop into -- there in some oddball

13 specialty application refrigeration that cannot be

14 tested in any of the individual numbers.

15 MR. SHEBIK: Right, but based on your

16 waiver, don't you specify that?

17 MR. HON: But how do you report it? How do

18 you show it if you don't have it marked down?

19 MR. SHEBIK: Okay. I'm sorry. I was

20 thinking of including a rating temperature.

21 MR. KOJAK: Is this going to be a test where

22 you have to actually see what the integrated adverse
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1 temperature of the cases range or are you talking just

2 a thermostat range because if you say, you know, if

3 the upper end is 40 degrees, but actually, the

4 thermostat says 40, but the integrated average

5 temperature is a different temperature, are you

6 requiring the rating temperature, the range from

7 actually what you are seeing average in the case or

8 are you talking about just what the thermostat is

9 going to say?

10 MR. SHEBIK: If I understand your question,

11 it should be integrated average temperature throughout

12 the whole entire case.

13 MR. KOJAK: That's why I was just asking

14 because not only is that -- you know, I have seen some

15 cases that the temperature on the front, test saying

16 what the temperature inside is is not close. So I was

17 just curious to see when you are talking about the

18 ranges like that, is it the actual what you are seeing

19 inside or what the thermostat is saying?

20 MS. BARHYDT: What we meant was the range of

21 temperatures that it was rated to operate at. So in

22 the residential side, we sometimes see refrigerators
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1 that operate across a very wide range of temperatures

2 because they are also marketed as wine coolers. But

3 they also get down cold enough to be a refrigerator.

4 So it is the full range of what it is intended to

5 operate at. And it is for the model. It is not for

6 an individual unit. So it's more of a rating.

7 MR. SHEBIK: I have one more question, the

8 very last bullet, condensing and configuration. Are

9 you looking at like parallel and conventional or what

10 are you looking at? And if that's what it is, I would

11 ask why?

12 MR. MARANTON: This is Aris Maranton,

13 Navigant. For that last bullet, condensing unit

14 configuration, it's just whether or not it's self15 contained or remote.

16 MR. SHEBIK: What's -- okay. I follow you

17 because E is self-contained, I guess, SOC in there.

18 Okay.

19 MR. EISNER: Other questions or comments?

20 I'm not sure where we are on this. A lot of

21 suggestions about a lot of individual bullets.

22 Anybody want to summarize? Why don't we
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1 start with page, I guess it's 39.

2 MS. BARHYDT: Actually, if we go back to --

3 oh, it's 39 up there.

4 MR. EISNER: I mean, what do we -- where are

5 we on what we want for self-contained?

6 MS. BARHYDT: So is there anything else

7 other than the maximum daily energy consumption in the

8 chilled or frozen compartment volume that we should be

9 collecting?

10 What about for self-contained commercial

11 refrigerator/freezers with solid doors? Nothing?

12 Okay.

13 What about the vast majority of other types?

14 MR. HON: Question for clarity. Did -- does

15 the standard ever consider maximum allowable use

16 energy for that size product just as a clarification

17 point? I know that Energy Star does. They list what

18 the maximum allowable power consumption is if you are

19 this size volume.

20 MS. BARHYDT: You mean, what the standard

21 is?

22 MR. HON: Yes.
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1 MS. BARHYDT: That could be calculated out

2 from -- it should be able to be --

3 MR. HON: Right.

4 MS. BARHYDT: -- calculated out from the

5 other information we collect.

6 MR. HON: It can be. I'm just asking if

7 you're going to.

8 MS. BARHYDT: But we don't require people to

9 --

10 MR. HON: Okay.

11 MS. BARHYDT: -- submit that as a piece of

12 data.

13 MR. EISNER: So, on the third one, remove

14 condensing, et cetera, anybody see any additions or

15 deletions they want?

16 No objections to the current list of six

17 items?

18 MR. EISNER: And what about the PDF, the

19 same as we have in the others or is there a problem

20 here? I heard some discussions; it sounded like

21 problems. Don't want to be held to your --

22 MR. MOLVIE: As I said, I would say that it
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1 should be optional, but I don't want that to preclude

2 being able to discuss if a test was set up wrong.

3 I mean, we've had tests set up and run

4 incorrectly before. Even when we have a test standard

5 that we give them, there's things that are considered

6 to be engineers' decisions and things like that. I

7 mean, this is different from the AEDM process.

8 MR. EISNER: Again, I defer to Energy on

9 this. But if you give an engineering standard and you

10 think it was applied improperly by the person doing

11 the test, I would assume that would be something that

12 would be discussed.

13 MS. DANE: I heard some talk earlier about

14 if you don't submit the information then you can't

15 complain if the test wasn't done.

16 MR. EISNER: Well, if you're asked for any

17 standards you think are necessary -- any instructions

18 you think are necessary for the test and you give them

19 nothing in an extreme case --

20 MS. DANE: Oh.

21 MR. EISNER: -- it's hard for you to go in

22 and say they shouldn't have done it that way.
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1 MS. DANE: Right. So okay. So the

2 difference would be at the time of certification. It

3 would be very burdensome to provide on every single

4 unit we submit how you set up each and every unit.

5 But if they chose one for enforcement testing, not so

6 much; that if there was a question that would come up,

7 I would assume the lab they chose would call us and we

8 would be able to provide information, then.

9 MR. SHEBIK: But again, the lab can contact

10 you or us.

11 MS. DANE: No, I thought they were going to

12 contact the DOE if they couldn't do the test.

13 MALE SPEAKER: Well, I mean, typically we

14 would do the test to -- in accordance with the

15 standard and set it up, put flow meters in, you know,

16 talking a remote obviously, put the flow meters in,

17 put the temperature sensors on, and charge it to the

18 instructions.

19 But if you have a different methodology

20 than, say, we do with charging, then, you know, we

21 could be short, you know, a few ounces, a few pounds

22 depending on, you know, how different our
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1 methodologies are. So and that's -- you know, that's

2 what we want to eliminate. We don't want to have to

3 repeat testing or, you know, cause a big stink if we

4 can avoid it.

5 MR. WHITWELL: Or I guess if there's

6 something special that needs to be done in order to be

7 able to run it per the test procedures, if you need

8 some certain settings that you have to make on the

9 equipment or something like that, that we would want

10 to get in there.

11 But it still is the intent or it still needs

12 to be run per the test standard.

13 MS. BARHYDT: Yes.

14 MR. WHITWELL: Right.

15 MS. BARHYDT: Correct, absolutely. And that

16 is that part of this discussion later on. I think I

17 see that on the list -- testing standards.

18 MALE SPEAKER: How much are we going to get

19 into that?

20 MS. BARHYDT: That's -- actually, I think

21 that's referring to it in a different context. The

22 test procedures themselves are not part of the
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1 discussion.

2 MR. CYMBALSKY: So I guess, Mary, what we're

3 trying to do for you here is to give you an

4 opportunity to provide the test lab any special

5 instructions, that clearly you can't deviate from the

6 test procedure. That is what it is.

7 But if there is something unique to your

8 set- up or like Mike said, the way you charge it, it's

9 in your best interest to provide that information any

10 way you can with your submissions. I mean, it's just

11 to protect you in the case where there could be some

12 judgment used in the testing set-up.

13 But again, we're not going to require it but

14 they're going to test it and --

15 MR. SHEBIK: Ron Shebik with Hussmann. I do

16 have one question, and you guys maybe remember this,

17 some manufacturers I'm aware of do, in their technical

18 publications, your evap temperatures and your

19 discharge temperatures are based on what's required to

20 keep your temperatures in the case below 41 degrees to

21 meet the food code requirements, which is not the same

22 as HR 1200 which you could have temperatures above 41
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1 degrees.

2 So you're actually -- you could be running

3 the case colder than what's required. Is that going

4 to cause a problem?

5 MS. BARHYDT: Are you asking if you can

6 provide alternate --

7 MR. SHEBIK: Because it wouldn't --

8 MS. BARHYDT: -- instructions in accordance

9 with --

10 MR. SHEBIK: I don't know.

11 MS. BARHYDT: No.

12 MR. SHEBIK: I mean, I might want to do

13 that. That's what I'm saying. But do you see that as

14 being a problem? I don't want to have HR 1200

15 instructions and instructions for maintaining the

16 proper food safety temperatures.

17 MR. AMRANE: This is Karim with AHRI. I

18 think doing the test based -- according to the test

19 procedure. If the test procedures called for a

20 different temperature, then you have to test at that -

21 - at that temperature. And this is what it is.

22 MR. SHEBIK: Okay. So you're -- okay. So
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1 you're --

2 MR. AMRANE: It's -- the test procedure is -

3 -

4 MR. SHEBIK: Okay.

5 MR. AMRANE: -- whatever --

6 MR. SHEBIK: Okay.

7 MR. AMRANE: -- test procedure DOE has

8 adopted.

9 MR. SHEBIK: Okay. So -- okay. That's

10 fine. You know, it clears it up.

11 MS. BARHYDT: It makes sense.

12 MR. SHEBIK: Yes.

13 MS. BARHYDT: Okay. Anything else?

14 MR. EISNER: Are you comfortable with the

15 last item that we've been adding to all the others?

16 Can you add it here? Any objections?

17 Okay. Let's go on to the next one.

18 MS. BARHYDT: PTACs. AHRI directory

19 currently includes heat type, cooling capacity, EER,

20 heating capacity, and COP where applicable.

21 DOE regulations currently require the EER,

22 the COP where applicable, the cooling capacity, and
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1 the wall sleeve dimensions. So there's a little bit

2 less overlap here than there is on some of the other.

3 MR. EISNER: So the first question: Is there

4 anything that is on the DOE list that shouldn't be

5 there?

6 The second question is: Is there anything

7 that's not on it that should be on it?

8 MR. WHITWELL: Yeah, this is Bob Whitwell.

9 Just a question about the wall sleeve dimensions. Why

10 -- is that something that DOE needs as part of the

11 certification? I would assume that the wall sleeve is

12 -- although it can be, should product -- separately,

13 the -- when you receive the chassis, it would describe

14 what the wall sleeve should be.

15 MS. BARHYDT: So I think the idea was that

16 it was based on what it was rated at with what

17 dimension of wall sleeve. But since we've talked

18 earlier about setting a standard wall sleeve for

19 ratings, I don't think that that would be --

20 MR. AMRANE: I think there are two issues

21 here. I think that might be one. But I think the

22 current standard, there are two levels: One for
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1 standard size PTACs and one for non-standard size

2 PTACS.

3 So I think that you wanted one dimension to

4 know if it's standard size or non-standard size.

5 MR. WHITWELL: Okay.

6 MR. EISNER: Anything else that should not

7 be on the list or should be on the list?

8 Okay. What about the addition to the five

9 that are -- four that are on the list? What about

10 adding the usual last one about the PDF, anybody

11 object to adding that?

12 Okay. Let's go to SPVU.

13 MS. BARHYDT: AHRI directory currently

14 includes cooling capacity, EER, heating capacity, COP

15 where applicable, and IPOV.

16 DOE regs currently require the EER, the COP

17 where applicable, and the cooling capacity.

18 MR. HUNT: Hi. This is Marshall Hunt. I

19 couldn't get in on the last one, the PTs. Could you

20 go back onto I, please.

21 MS. BARHYDT: For PTACS?

22 MR. HUNT: Yes. I've always been bothered
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1 by the fact that the PTACs I know of, and I hope I'm

2 wrong about this now, would essentially go into

3 resistance heating at about 40, 41 degrees.

4 Does The COP capture that resistance heating

5 or is it at a much higher, say, 47 degree test point?

6 So both regulators, customers, utilities don't under -

7 - realize it's such a poor performer down below 40.

8 MS. BARHYDT: It's 47.

9 MR. WHITWELL: It's 47 degrees.

10 MS. BARHYDT: The test standard's 47.

11 MR. HUNT: But where's resistance heat kick

12 in?

13 MR. WHITWELL: It depends on the

14 manufacturer.

15 MR. HUNT: But it puts an unfair advantage

16 on the PTAC when compared to a split or a package

17 system heat pump which with resistant heat coming in

18 later continues to heat to the balance point or to the

19 -- yeah, the balance point in the flow versus capacity

20 curves.

21 So the very least we need a recording of at

22 what temperature does the unit go into resistance
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1 heating. It's probably -- I wouldn't be able to ask

2 for a COP at 17 which you have to do for a central

3 heat pump.

4 MS. BARHYDT: Bob, can you --

5 MR. WHITWELL: That sounds like a standard

6 issue. Right.

7 MS. HOOTMAN: Yeah, that's issue.

8 MR. HUNT: So we can ask for the controls.

9 We can say what -- at what temperature do you -- does

10 the system go into resistance heating.

11 MR. THARP: Rusty Tharp with Goodman. I

12 need to come back. I can come back tomorrow with some

13 information quite possibly.

14 MR. AMRANE: And, Marshall, this is Karim

15 with AHRI. The information will be for whom, for you

16 or for who? I mean, who's asking for the information?

17 MR. HUNT: It would be for the utility, it

18 would be for simulations. If I am simulating a PTAC

19 unit, I'm doing hourly data. If COP changes from

20 whatever its rating is to one, at that temperature,

21 unless we have more information from the manufacturer,

22 also the customer needs to know because they'd be
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1 unfairly comparing, let's say, a mini-split heat pump

2 or a central heat pump to a PTAC unit.

3 These PTACs are not the greatest heat pumps

4 in the world.

5 MR. WHITWELL: Wouldn't that be something

6 the customer would go to the manufacturer to get

7 rather than rely on getting it from DOE?

8 MR. HUNT: It's an easy number. Just tell

9 me what is the control point. It's one box on a form.

10 41, 42, 35?

11 MR. SACHS: Marshall, this is Harvey. And I

12 appreciate the concern, having suffered through many

13 nights with PTACs in no-tell hotels, but I think that

14 for you alls utility, there is a path to acquiring any

15 information you want, whether or not it's in the

16 standards. If you're giving a rebate for only pink

17 PTACs, you can give rebates for pink PTACs.

18 And I think our path forward may be to use

19 that to determine what information needs to be thought

20 about at the next revision of the standard. I'm not

21 sure we can reach that with this process.

22 MR. HUNT: But let's say I had an upstream
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1 rebate for a distributor or for a manufacturer and I

2 set what -- EER and COP on this, I set those levels

3 and I also wanted to set the change-over to resistance

4 heating number. How would -- what models would be --

5 how would I know what models to look for if I sent my

6 people out checking how the rebate was done?

7 MR. SACHS: Well, I think it would be like

8 anything else, that the manufacturer would have to

9 certify that it met your requirements. It's a

10 contract issue.

11 MR. HUNT: Okay. I'll try another way.

12 I've taught ACCA courses all over the United States

13 plus Lowe's commercial loads and it is amazing how

14 many people had no idea that these units stop being

15 their heat pump at such high temperature.

16 And we're really -- change the design

17 community's approach to some of these. I should think

18 people developed who are -- have a competing project -

19 - products would like to know that, have a fair

20 playing field.

21 If I have a unit, like a split system heat

22 pump, that performs -- performs very well down in the
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1 teens or below, I certainly don't want to compete with

2 a PTAC that claims that the COP unit's really rated at

3 47 percent.

4 I think it's a customer protection, customer

5 information issue.

6 MR. SACHS: My heart is with you.

7 MS. HOOTMAN: This is Jill from Trane. I

8 understand what you're saying, Marshall, but really is

9 the Department of Energy the consumer protection? I'm

10 not sure that that is their role here.

11 MR. HUNT: Where else can I get the

12 information?

13 MS. HOOTMAN: Like I said, it is -- it does

14 - - it is in the manufacturer's literature. There are

15 many things that contractors and many of the system

16 designers do not read in our literature or do not

17 understand, but that is an education issue that we

18 have in the industry. And I don't know that a

19 regulation from the department is going to effectively

20 change that.

21 MR. HUNT: But if you had the list -- this

22 is the last thing I'll rant about -- if you -- if we
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1 had a listing there and we were -- had a flier

2 advising customers what to look for in a packaged heat

3 pump, we could tell them to be sure to notice when the

4 unit switches over from heat pump operations to

5 resistance heat and look for products that could do

6 that at a very low level.

7 For example, split system heat pumps do not

8 go into resistance heating at such high temperatures.

9 MR. SACHS: Marshall, I think we have a -- I

10 just picked up something. This is Harvey. And I

11 think we have a different issue. This is about

12 packaged terminal air conditioners, not about packaged

13 air conditioners and packaged heat pumps. It's not

14 about rooftop units but about these darn curtain

15 shakers --

16 MR. HUNT: Darn curtain shaker.

17 MR. SACHS: -- in the low rent hotel.

18 MS. HOOTMAN: Exactly.

19 MR. HUNT: I know. I know. And it looks so

20 good if you think about the fact that if you took that

21 rating without knowing any of this, you think, oh,

22 they look great, I have no duct losses, they're
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1 central, now we have some good controls, I can put

2 them in a -- little offices or doing a remodel or

3 something and -- anyway, I don't sense anyone's with

4 me, but I just want to point this out.

5 MR. THARP: Marshall, this is Rusty with

6 Goodman. Our literature specifically states the

7 temperature at which it could operate down to.

8 MR. HUNT: Thank you. I'd love to look at

9 it. And I appreciate that.

10 MR. SACHS: The other thing, Marshall, not

11 to beat you or a dead horse, is that the PTAC decision

12 is essentially locked in at design time which we'd

13 really like to have the information to the owners that

14 these things are dog meat. It's not a retro-fit

15 issue. I'm sorry, Rusty.

16 MR. STARR: This is Louis Starr, NEEA. Just

17 in our local codes, we take -- or at least

18 Oregon/Washington we write it in the codes that we

19 lock out the temperatures below certain things. So we

20 just take care of any codes.

21 And also the other problem you have with

22 this is when they get its temperature away from set
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1 point which kicks in your electric heat/reheat, so we

2 also take care of it through the controls.

3 So a lot of this is really -- the best way

4 to address it is through codes, maybe through national

5 codes. I encourage everybody in 2015 IAC process to

6 get involved.

7 MR. SACHS: Thanks, Russ.

8 MR. HUNT: Onward and upward. Thank you.

9 I'll go back on you.

10 MS. BARHYDT: Okay. SPVUs. Anything else

11 we should collect, anything less we should collect?

12 MR. EISNER: So the three things are

13 currently collecting, do we agree, no more no less?

14 MS. BARHYDT: And the usual last bullet, add

15 that.

16 Okay. That takes it -- us up to air cooled

17 - - hold on. Actually, one second. So we have

18 cooling capacity, AHRI has heating capacity, too?

19 Should we have heating capacity?

20 MR. EISNER: Do we know why it wasn't in

21 there originally? Any reason here we shouldn't add

22 "heating capacity"?
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1 MR. AMRANE: Karim Amrane, AHRI. The

2 regulations are -- are based on the cooling capacity

3 anyway. So that's what the matter is, so.

4 MR. EISNER: Okay. So we're set on SPVU.

5 Air cooled, small, large, and et cetera.

6 MS. BARHYDT: Okay. So AHRI directory

7 currently includes cooling capacity, EER, IEER, high

8 heating capacity, high heating COP, low heating

9 capacity, low heating COP, and AHRI type which I

10 believe corresponds somewhat to the DOE different

11 equipment classes. Somewhat, not exactly, but --

12 MR. AMRANE: Right.

13 MS. BARHYDT: -- conceptually, it's similar.

14 MR. AMRANE: Yes. Karim with AHRI. But

15 you're missing all the product below 65,000 BTU.

16 MS. BARHYDT: That's right. Thanks. This

17 is -- okay. I see.

18 MR. AMRANE: Should have both.

19 MS. BARHYDT: So DOE regs currently require

20 for small commercial packaged air conditioning that is

21 air cooled with cooling capacity less than 65,000 BTU.

22 Would that also -- that's also only three phase. Is
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1 that right?

2 MR. AMRANE: Right.

3 MS. BARHYDT: Yeah, three phase.

4 MR. AMRANE: But if it's less than 65,000 --

5 MS. BARHYDT: So that's -- we collect SEER,

6 HSPF, and the cooling capacity for commercial packaged

7 air conditioning and heating equipment. All other

8 types we collect EER, COP, cooling capacity, and the

9 type of heating used by the unit.

10 MR. EISNER: Okay. Anything that should be

11 added or subtracted from the DOE list?

12 MALE SPEAKER: I'll just say again, you

13 know, any additional information that we can get in

14 the PDF, whether there's air flow statics, the

15 specific rating conditions that were used when we're

16 going out there to test these blind would be

17 beneficial. So whether it's required or in a

18 supplemental sheet, it's fine. But if we're going to

19 do it in a supplemental sheet, maybe we should spend

20 some time going through what that specific list is for

21 each product class as well.

22 MR. AMRANE: This is Karim with AHRI. I
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1 think I see this differently. I think we should give

2 the opportunity to manufacturers to provide the

3 information that they think is appropriate.

4 Whether it has what you need or not, I -- it

5 shouldn't be your issue. The issue should be the

6 manufacturer's issue. Because at the end of the day,

7 if you -- we could not test the unit, this

8 manufacturer is going to be penalized, so.

9 MR. WHITWELL: So this is Bob Whitwell from

10 Carrier. One thing that we need to add is the indoor

11 unit model number for splits.

12 MR. EISNER: Does DOE agree with that?

13 MS. BARHYDT: Yes. So I believe that the

14 way we have it set up, where for the general

15 information we say "model number," what we do for the

16 split systems is we provide an opportunity to provide

17 the indoor and the outdoor separately.

18 MR. WHITWELL: Okay. That would work. I

19 was just looking at the residential template.

20 MS. BARHYDT: Right.

21 MR. WHITWELL: And it has outdoor and

22 indoor, so.
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1 MS. BARHYDT: Separate.

2 MR. WHITWELL: But that would work. And

3 earlier we talked about the -- possibly including the

4 standard indoor fan motor power, horsepower. And

5 maybe we need to include that also for the outdoor if

6 there's options for high static, you know, optional

7 outdoor motors. But only -- I guess only in the case

8 where there are options. Right? If there's no

9 options on the outdoor motor, then it could be left

10 blank.

11 MS. BARHYDT: Okay.

12 MR. EISNER: Agree?

13 MS. BARHYDT: Well, we haven't resolved the

14 motor issue but certainly --

15 MR. WHITWELL: We should consider that

16 depending on the outcome.

17 MS. BARHYDT: Should consider that depending

18 --

19 MR. WHITWELL: Outcome. Right.

20 MS. BARHYDT: -- on how the -- how it works

21 out.

22 MR. AMRANE: This is Karim. Bob, a question
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1 for Bob -- this is for products less than 65,000.

2 Right?

3 MS. BARHYDT: No.

4 MR. WHITWELL: Well, no, I thought we were

5 talking about -- it's all one template.

6 MS. BARHYDT: There is --

7 MR. AMRANE: Only one. Okay. All right.

8 MR. EISNER: Anything else? The usual last

9 bullet, would be yes.

10 MS. HOOTMAN: The -- this is Jill from

11 Trane. I believe DOE covers water cooled and

12 evaporative cooled. And I'm looking over my buddy.

13 So is there other stuff that they need to have up

14 there?

15 MS. BARHYDT: I think water cooled is on the

16 next slide.

17 MS. HOOTMAN: Okay.

18 MS. BARHYDT: This one's air cooled.

19 MS. HOOTMAN: All right.

20 MR. EISNER: Any objections to the last

21 bullet, the ones that are already on the slide plus

22 the indoor fan motor and possibly outdoor?
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1 COURT REPORTER: Could you ask whoever's on

2 the phone to mute their phone.

3 MR. EISNER: Could you mute your phone if

4 you're online with your -- the phone unmated?

5 MS. TUCKER: It sounds like an airplane

6 crashing.

7 MR. EISNER: It sounds kind of soothing.

8 MS. TUCKER: That's all I can think about.

9 MR. EISNER: Okay. Anything else on this

10 one? No problems.

11 Gets us up to water cooled.

12 MS. BARHYDT: So AHRI directory currently

13 includes cooling capacity, EER, IEER, the high heating

14 capacity and COP, the low heating capacity and COP,

15 and the AHRI type.

16 DOE regs currently require the EER, the COP,

17 the cooling capacity, and the type of heating used by

18 the unit.

19 MR. EISNER: Same questions -- anything

20 added, anything subtracted? Okay. So everybody's

21 happy with what's on the sheet and the addition of the

22 PDF bullet, no objections?
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1 Okay.

2 MS. HOOTMAN: These would have had those

3 motor options as well if you go that way.

4 MS. TUCKER: Yeah, just to be clear, I'm not

5 adding them right now just on the slides because of --

6 MR. EISNER: She won't go to bed tonight

7 until she has. Okay.

8 MR. WHITWELL: Well, maybe there -- we might

9 maybe just need a reminder on there, right, so we

10 don't forget them later on.

11 MR. EISNER: Okay. That brings us up to

12 evaporatively cooled.

13 MS. BARHYDT: AHRI, same information. DOE

14 pretty much same information.

15 MR. EISNER: Anything that should be added

16 or subtracted? Everybody's okay with this, with the

17 usual bullet at the end?

18 Water source -- small, large, and very

19 large. And the CFR break. We can look. If you got

20 to check something, check.

21 MS. BARHYDT: No, no, that's okay.

22 MR. EISNER: Water source.
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1 MS. TUCKER: Sorry. What are missing?

2 MR. AMRANE: Karim with AHRI. For water

3 source, we're not talking about the same, we're

4 talking about the EER. But there's no IEER. There's

5 -- the COP is not at 47, it's not 17. So we don't

6 have same requirement that the other products -- other

7 sources are different, it's not the same test

8 procedure, it's different test procedure.

9 So this -- those listed here, those are --

10 do not belong to the water source.

11 MR. SACHS: Karim, is this the stuff that's

12 on the ISO standard?

13 MR. AMRANE: The IEO? No.

14 MR. SACHS: No.

15 MR. AMRANE: The IEO, there's no IEO on the

16 ISO standard.

17 MR. SACHS: I'm sorry. Is the water source

18 large -- small, large, and very large commercial

19 packaged air conditioning, what we use the ISO test

20 method for water loop and ground source units?

21 MR. CYMBALSKY: Yes.

22 MR. AMRANE: Right.
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1 MR. SACHS: Thank you.

2 MS. TUCKER: And we'll just highlight them

3 all red and revisit that.

4 MR. EISNER: Okay. Anything that should be

5 added or subtracted? So everybody's okay with the

6 current DOE requirements plus the added bullet?

7 All right. Everybody's okay. Should we go

8 to the next one, variable refrigerant?

9 MS. BARHYDT: Do the water source have split

10 systems, same kind of model number issue?

11 MR. CYMBALSKY: The what?

12 MS. BARHYDT: Do the water source and the

13 evaporatively cooled have the indoor/outdoor split

14 system kind of configuration like the air cooled?

15 Bob brought up the issue of the two model

16 numbers. I just want to make sure that we've got that

17 covered for everything that might possibly have that.

18 MR. SACHS: At least two -- this is Harvey -

19 - at least two relatively large manufacturers of water

20 loop heat pumps do offer split systems, but I think

21 they're always sold with matched indoor units -- the

22 fan. It's a relatively small production volume.
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1 MS. BARHYDT: Okay.

2 MR. SACHS: What was the second half?

3 MS. BARHYDT: I -- basically the

4 evaporatively cooled --

5

6 MR. SACHS: Marshall probably has been

7 tracking that if he's -- can unmute. But there's been

8 a series of relatively small manufacturers who've gone

9 to market with evaporatively pre-cooled residential

10 split systems and who knows whose evaporator's being

11 used with them.

12 MR. FLY: And this is Mark Fly with AAON.

13 We do build evaporative cooled large condensing units,

14 which would be married to somebody's air handler, so.

15 MR. KOJAK: Do we have to keep track of the

16 water consumption on those during the test?

17 MR. FLY: There is no test standard for

18 evaporative cooled equipment right now. So I don't

19 know the answer to that question because I don't know

20 of that test standard.

21 MS. BARHYDT: Okay.

22 MS. HOOTMAN: AHRI 340/360 does not address
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1 evap or water.

2 MR. EISNER: If you're on the phone, could

3 you mute your phone?

4 MS. BARHYDT: Okay.

5 MR. EISNER: Variable refrigerant.

6 MS. BARHYDT: VRFs.

7 MR. DOPPEL: Paul Doppel with Mitsubishi.

8 So the title should be variable refrigerant flow

9 multi- split air conditioners, comma, heat pumps, and

10 water source heat pumps.

11 Then the indoor units, there's also a mixed

12 grading -- ducted, non-ducted, and mixed ducted and

13 non-ducted. You can just put in mixed. Okay. And

14 the SCHE is for heat recovery systems only.

15 And then for the water source heat pumps, we

16 need a heating capacity and heating COP at 68 degrees.

17 MR. THARP: Rusty Tharp with Goodman. The

18 47/17 values for air source only.

19 MS. TUCKER: You said heating capacity and

20 sorry.

21 MR. THARP: Heating COP.

22 MS. TUCKER: Heating COP. Thank you.
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1 MR. DOPPEL: Yeah. So the 47 and 17 are air

2 source. And then the other -- the last two are water

3 source.

4 MS. TUCKER: Oh.

5 MR. AMRANE: This is Karim with AHRI. I

6 guess I'm moving to the next slide, and I see no

7 product specific requirements for VRFs. But there are

8 already standards for VRFs. Right?

9 MS. BARHYDT: There's no certification

10 requirements for VRFs right now.

11 MR. AMRANE: Okay.

12 MR. DOPPEL: That goes into a -- in effect

13 in August I think it is.

14 MS. BARHYDT: You -- are the standards

15 already in effect or you're asking?

16 MR. DOPPEL: I don't remember the exact but

17 it seemed like it was August this year that it would

18 go. It was mixed. Maybe the water source was a

19 different time. And the -- I'll have to double check.

20 MS. BARHYDT: There's October 29th, 2013 for

21 greater than 135,000 BTU.

22 MR. DOPPEL: On the water source?
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1 MS. BARHYDT: On water source. Less than

2 17,000 BTU was October 2012. Air cooled, fall 2010,

3 except for one that was 2008. Were there changes to

4 that that may not have been in my book?

5 MR. DOPPEL: Wait a minute. And what was

6 the date? What was the date?

7 MS. BARHYDT: I'm looking at water source,

8 air cooled, 2012. But the certification requirements -

9 -

10 MR. DOPPEL: But the standard was tied in

11 with ASHRAE 90.1. Okay.

12 COURT REPORTER: Did you want to recap that

13 for the transcript?

14 MS. BARHYDT: Sure. Actually, most of it,

15 I'd already said, but the gist of it is that the

16 standards are set forth. Most of them are already in,

17 in fact, except for a few of the water source

18 standards for VRFs but the certifications requirements

19 obviously have not kicked in for anyone and there are

20 no specific provisions for VRFs or certification in

21 the regs right now.

22 MR. DOPPEL: That -- first of all, just for
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1 clarification, that first part was testing standards.

2 MS. BARHYDT: Yes. No. That was standards.

3 That was performance standards.

4 MR. WHITWELL: Yeah, so that predates the

5 test procedures. So it would have been based on the

6 waivers at the time, right, the test waivers I guess I

7 mean.

8 MR. DOPPEL: No, it was based on ASHRAE

9 90.1. Because if you look at the date, it's a

10 publication for ASHRAE for 90.1.

11 MR. WHITWELL: But I think the effective

12 date for standards was in 2010.

13 MS. BARHYDT: '10.

14 MR. WHITWELL: Yeah.

15 MR. DOPPEL: Yeah, that's what the -- that's

16 what the book says.

17 MR. WHITWELL: And the DOE just adopted 1230

18 last year. So it would have been based on the

19 alternate test procedures that were included in the

20 waivers I guess.

21 MR. DOPPEL: Which was based on 1230, but

22 the performance standards are what's in 90.1.
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1 MS. BARHYDT: Okay. So we still -- if

2 everybody can walk through -- or if you could walk

3 through one more time, make sure we've got everything

4 for VRFs since we have nothing in the regs right now.

5 I want to make sure we get this right.

6 So you're saying we should collect

7 everything that's in AHRI?

8 MR. AMRANE: And you don't need the COP at

9 17. You don't need --

10 MS. BARHYDT: I didn't think so. That's why

11 I was trying to make sure we're on the same page.

12 MR. WHITWELL: Yeah, you don't need --

13 MR. AMRANE: You don't --

14 MR. WHITWELL: You don't need IEER.

15 MS. BARHYDT: Yeah, I know.

16 MR. DOPPEL: And you don't need SCHE. I

17 thought you were just trying to get square what was in

18 AHRI. This is all AHRI.

19 MS. BARHYDT: Right. But --

20 MR. AMRANE: This is Karim with AHRI. I

21 think it has to be similar to what you do for the

22 other products. It -- so it has to be EER, COP at 47,
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1 cooling capacity for the water source has to be EER

2 and the COP.

3 MR. WHITWELL: But I think there is -- Bob

4 Whitwell from Carrier, I think like you would for us,

5 what system, you have to identify the indoor and

6 outdoor units that are the tested combination. Right?

7 MS. BARHYDT: Combination, yes.

8 MR. DOPPEL: No. No, that wouldn't be the

9 case. The -- what's in -- what's listed in AHRI is

10 the outdoor unit --

11 MR. WHITWELL: No. But, Paul, DOE would

12 need to have that information --

13 MR. DOPPEL: Yes, it would.

14 MR. WHITWELL: -- to know what to test.

15 MR. DOPPEL: Right.

16 MR. WHITWELL: Right. It's not going to be

17 - - they wouldn't publish it.

18 MR. DOPPEL: Right. But that's not on this

19 page.

20 MR. WHITWELL: No, we're -- but we're -- I

21 think we're moved onto the second page. Right?

22 MS. BARHYDT: Yeah.
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1 MR. DOPPEL: We're not there yet, no.

2 MS. TUCKER: Sorry. I was just using that.

3 MR. DOPPEL: Okay. On this page, I agree.

4 MR. WHITWELL: Yeah.

5 MR. BAUMAN: Okay. So DOE should collect

6 the indoor unit -- an indication of whether it's

7 ducted, non-ducted, or mixed.

8 MR. DOPPEL: Just ducted.

9 MS. BARHYDT: Cooling capacity.

10 MR. DOPPEL: Just ducted or non-ducted.

11 MS. BARHYDT: Just ducted or non-ducted.

12 MR. CYMBALSKY: Why not mixed?

13 MS. BARHYDT: What's mixed?

14 MR. WHITWELL: Mixed is the average of --

15 MR. DOPPEL: An average of the two.

16 MS. BARHYDT: Okay.

17 MR. WHITWELL: So it's not tested.

18 MS. BARHYDT: Cooling capacity EER. The

19 heating capacity and heating COP for air at 47. And

20 the heating capacity and COP for water at 68.

21 MR. DOPPEL: 68.

22 MS. TUCKER: So can I put that in red here
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1 and --

2 MR. AMRANE: This is Karim. I don't know if

3 we need the -- I'm not sure if we need the heating

4 capacity. I mean, I'll leave it up to you guys but

5 this is not something required for the other product.

6 MR. WHITWELL: No, it's --

7 MR. AMRANE: The heating capacity is not

8 required. I mean, it is what it is, cooling capacity.

9 MR. DOPPEL: Just the COP.

10 MR. AMRANE: And cooling capacity, yes.

11 MR. DOPPEL: Cooling capacity and then --

12 okay. Thanks.

13 MS. BARHYDT: You keep saying that's red and

14 then it just -- it's not always red.

15 MS. TUCKER: So what's in the light gray?

16 Can I take that and put it on there? I try so hard.

17 MR. EISNER: Okay. Everybody comfortable

18 with this list?

19 MS. BARHYDT: I'm there.

20 MR. DOPPEL: The -- underneath the indoor

21 unit or with that also has to be the -- well, I guess

22 just a separate bullet of definition of the tested --
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1 the units in the tested combination.

2 MR. WHITWELL: Which would be the indoor

3 models and the outdoor models.

4 MR. DOPPEL: Right.

5 MR. WHITWELL: Right. Because there could

6 be multiple, more than one, outdoor unit that goes

7 together for the system as well as up to twelve indoor

8 units that go together for the system.

9 And then, Paul, what about the compressor

10 speed, operating speed, they need to have that --

11 MR. THARP: PDF.

12 MR. DOPPEL: I think maybe you and I should

13 talk about how we want to provide that because that's

14 going to be confidential information.

15 MR. WHITWELL: Well, I mean, in all of that

16 there is a lot of confidential information that we're

17 talking about here.

18 MR. DOPPEL: Well, the other thing, too, is

19 that the test lab would probably need some sort of a

20 testing box or --

21 MS. BARHYDT: Okay. So hold on. Bob just

22 made a statement. I want to make sure we're all clear
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1 on it, that things like capacity, EER, COP, those

2 would all generally be public information. Right?

3 MR. WHITWELL: Uh-huh. Right.

4 understand.

5 MS. BARHYDT: Okay.

6 MR. THARP: And let's also remember that VRF

7 is one of the ones where manufacturers are there a

8 hundred percent of the time.

9 MR. WHITWELL: I know, but I think we would

10 want to make sure that when the manufacturer is there

11 and operating the equipment, it's operated at the

12 speed that it's supposed to operate at for the

13 capacity and efficiency.

14 MR. DOPPEL: So I -- under -- what else

15 should be provided, DOE, maybe put equipment and

16 controls to operate the VRF system.

17 MR. WHITWELL: That -- yeah, right.

18 MS. BARHYDT: I think --

19 MR. WHITWELL: Which is not part of the

20 submission.

21 MS. BARHYDT: -- I had some information in

22 that rulemaking where we talked about some of the
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1 information we would want manufacturers to provide to

2 us. So we can go back to that rulemaking and look at

3 that as well.

4 MR. WHITWELL: From May last year.

5 MS. BARHYDT: Huh?

6 MR. WHITWELL: The May --

7 MS. BARHYDT: Yeah.

8 MR. DOPPEL: Instead of equipment put

9 "controller."

10 MR. EISNER: Is this captured?

11 MS. BARHYDT: So it's 6:00 o'clock. And I

12 believe we have to clear the room, so.

13 MR. EISNER: So are we done with -- are we

14 done with this?

15 MS. BARHYDT: So is there anything else on

16 VRFs for right now? And then we'll just pick up with

17 the list tomorrow morning.

18 MR. EISNER: Everybody okay with this for

19 VRF with the usual last bullet on PDFs?

20 MS. BARHYDT: I think DOE needs to go back

21 and look at that rulemaking as well. So I don't think

22 VRFs are quite polished up.
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1 MR. EISNER: Yeah, okay.

2 MR. DOPPEL: Can this be sent out to us

3 tonight? Is it impossible?

4 MS. BARHYDT: If we post it on SharePoint,

5 will that work?

6 MR. DOPPEL: Yeah, posting it on SharePoint

7 is good.

8 MS. BARHYDT: Okay.

9 (Whereupon, at 5:59 p.m., the

10 Appliance Standards and Rulemaking

11 Federal Advisory Committee Meeting was

12 adjourned.)

13

14

15

16

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18

19

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21

22
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3 I, MARY YOUNG, hereby certify that I am not the Court 

4 Reporter who reported the following proceeding and 

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3 I, WENDY SARDINA, hereby certify that I am not the 

4 Court Reporter who reported the following proceeding 

5 and that I have typed the transcript of this 

6 proceeding using the Court Reporter's notes and 

7 recordings. The foregoing/attached transcript is a 

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3 I, SARAH VEACH, hereby certify that I am not the Court 

4 Reporter who reported the following proceeding and 

5 that I have typed the transcript of this proceeding 

6 using the Court Reporter's notes and recordings. The 

7 foregoing/attached transcript is a true, correct and 

8 complete transcription of said proceeding. 

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anyone's 136:22

169:2 294:3

anything 7:4 12:1

31:6 32:9 41:3

42:15 48:5 59:15

76:17 79:10 82:9

85:22 86:6 90:17

100:20 114:22

117:16 137:4,21

156:16 175:9

204:15 220:11

222:4 232:12

233:18 234:4

257:1,2,16 258:5

261:10 264:16

265:7,21 278:6

285:13 286:4,6
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295:10,11

297:10 300:8

301:9,19,20

302:15 304:4

316:15

anyway 147:2

163:14,15

234:16 294:3

296:3

anywhere 70:4

121:13 164:13

180:6

apart 158:6

apologize 105:7

216:1

apologizes 169:19

Apparently 51:11

Appeals 199:9

Appendix 164:18

apples 230:16

Appliance 1:6 6:6

317:10

applicable 62:20

199:5,9 271:22

285:20,22

287:15,17

application 88:22

106:18,19 120:9

129:7 131:21

132:16 134:17

152:4 158:15

186:5 229:3

275:13

applications

69:3,4 131:18

175:13 185:8

applied 27:10

53:16 139:5

280:10

applies 132:19

210:21 227:15

apply 41:8 139:20

162:10 169:18

170:5 183:22

appreciate 129:19

153:6 184:20

290:12 294:9

approach 291:17

appropriate 129:9

139:4 298:3

approve 197:5

approved 5:17

architectural 68:4

area 16:5 21:8

29:17 267:7

areas 67:2 73:4

aren't 30:12 57:20

96:20 163:20

173:21 193:21

argue 52:1

arguing 213:18

argument 70:21

74:22 204:22

260:20

ARI 119:13

Aris 3:17 277:12

arise 60:18

arm 75:15 199:10

Armstrong 2:7

4:13,17,20 5:1

7:21 8:2,5,9

10:10,14,22

11:10,17,19,21

12:11,14,18,20,2

2 14:7,14

15:5,8,10,18

18:3,5,9,11

19:15,21

20:5,14,21

21:1,10,17

22:3,9,11,13,22

23:17 34:18

35:15

36:1,4,7,9,19,22

37:4,14,16

38:3,19,22

39:2,6,10,20

40:1,14,20

41:5,14

42:2,6,10

43:7,13,15,18

44:17

45:9,13,18,21

46:19 47:17,22

48:13 49:18

50:9,14 51:1,16

52:5,21 53:1,3

54:7,19

56:7,9,16,19

57:3,5,13,15,22

58:3,11,20,22

59:10 60:1,11

61:4,16,18

62:9,15

63:3,11,16,20

64:2,7 65:3,13

67:13,18

68:6,8,11,18,20

69:1,7,13,15,19,

22 70:5,9,16,20

72:14 74:6,16

76:7,18,20,22

77:3,9,12

78:19,22

79:4,7,11,19

80:9,16,21

81:2,7,21 82:7

83:1,9,19

84:5,12,19 85:5

87:10,13,18 88:1

89:5,18

90:1,4,10,14,16

91:2,6,9,20

92:11,18

93:12,15,17,19

94:2,17

95:5,8,15,22

96:10,16

97:6,11,17

98:3,7,12,15,21

102:12,15,21

103:13,18

104:19,22

105:2,7,17,21

106:21 107:4,8

108:5,11,19

110:5 112:13,16

124:21 125:8,11

126:10

127:15,17,20

128:1 133:3,6,19

134:2,12

135:4,11,14

136:2,17,20,22

137:10

138:11,16

139:7,10,12

140:1,15,22

141:5,13,21

142:2,12

143:5,22 144:17

145:1,9,14,18

147:4,14,19

148:5,7,12,16,20

149:4,10,17,20

150:2,12,14,19

151:2,5

154:2,6,9

156:1,9

157:16,20 158:1

159:7,13,18

160:1,21

161:9,17

162:2,7,13,17,20

163:4,7,13

164:18

165:2,6,12,18,22

166:5,7,14,18
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168:2,16,18

169:11

170:1,7,9,18

171:22 172:8

174:5,9,14

175:10,20

176:2,4,6,13,18,

22 177:4,6,19

178:3,5,11,16

179:1,9,17

180:1,6,13,18

181:11

182:2,10,12,21

183:2,8,11,13

184:12,15 185:4

186:7,19

187:9,12

188:7,10,13,20

189:2,8,15

190:6,17,22

191:6,10,12,15

194:20 195:7,13

arrange 190:10,15

arrangement

124:19

articulate 41:11

Ashley 2:7

4:11,15,16 5:10

10:10 12:11

15:10 49:12

51:14,15 63:1

68:16 74:22

125:8 142:1

143:14 144:21

156:5 167:14

170:8 182:17

186:7

ASHRAE 43:5,8

44:5,7,8

69:15,16 149:21

187:2 308:11

309:8,10

aside 236:16

as-is 99:22

ASME 259:14

aspect 76:8

ASRAC 2:3,4 4:6

5:15,17 193:5

assembly 102:22

assignment 76:11

86:19,22 87:3,7

associated 86:9

99:17 212:13

assume 47:15

82:19 116:17

165:5,20 171:4

231:6 280:11

281:7 286:11

assumes 224:11

assuming 99:22

124:4 144:13

161:5 188:1

226:8 233:3

assumption 47:19

170:4

assuring 100:21

asterisk 92:8

119:9

asterisks 81:3

119:8 199:20,22

200:5

asymptotic 100:7

attached 158:16

attendance 193:12

attenuator 165:11

atypical 35:19

audience 196:15

August 193:1

307:13,17

authority 152:12

auxiliary 85:18,20

119:11

available 35:22

39:14 80:11,14

82:17 83:5 84:22

89:9 104:3

117:19 118:1

143:10 146:2

165:14,19

170:16 187:19

209:22 234:6

244:19 264:8

273:7

Avenue 1:11

average 139:4

157:7 181:12

267:2,14,15,20

276:4,7,11

312:14,15

avoid 118:9

203:10 265:10

282:4

aware 283:17

away 29:16

58:6,14 86:14

111:12 114:22

115:6 212:9

217:9 294:22

B

back-up 12:12

balance 288:18,19

ballgame 95:7

Ballo 2:10 11:16

181:8 203:15

205:6,13 209:12

235:18 265:8,17

Bard 195:4

Barhydt 2:6 7:7

8:7,10,21 9:3,7

12:3,7 13:2,12

17:6,11

18:4,7,10 28:18

30:10 31:11

32:8,16,18

33:5,21

34:9,12,14 47:20

48:1 59:20

64:14,16,22

65:4,19

66:13,17,19

76:17,19,21

77:10 81:13

82:11 120:17,19

122:3 152:20

154:19 169:1

176:5 178:12

180:5 184:11

189:14 191:16

192:8 193:2,19

194:2,5 195:22

196:20 197:6,9

198:4,6,15

199:21

200:10,20

201:15,19,21

202:13,17,22

203:5,13

204:2,10

205:12,22

206:5,17

207:1,5,8 208:15

209:3,8,15

210:1,12

211:2,7,20 212:2

213:3,14 214:3

215:3,5,8,13,17

216:10,22

219:5,9 220:7,14

221:11

222:3,9,13

223:6,14,16

224:11,21

226:2,11

227:13,22
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229:11,19

230:4,7,10,17

231:20 232:6,20

233:22 234:12

235:15 236:6,11

237:17 238:20

239:10,14,22

240:5,9,18,21

241:2,10 244:13

246:10,16

247:16,21

248:6,9,14

249:2,14,18,20

250:2,6,16

253:6,22 256:21

260:4,9,11

261:11,13,17

262:6,12

264:1,14

265:4,15,20

266:5,9 267:19

268:9,14

274:9,14,19

276:20

278:2,6,20

279:1,4,8,11

282:13,15,20

284:5,8,11

285:11,13,18

286:15

287:13,21

288:8,10 289:4

295:10,14

296:6,13,16,19

297:3,5

298:13,20

299:1,11,13,17,2

0 300:3,6,15,18

301:12

302:13,21

304:9,12

305:1,3,21

306:4,6

307:9,14,20

308:1,7,14

309:2,13

310:1,10,15,19

311:7,22

312:9,11,13,16,1

8 313:13,19

314:21

315:5,18,21

316:5,7,11,15,20

317:4,8

barometric 146:5

148:3,16

base 32:13,22

33:11 79:21

80:14 89:11

93:13 94:3,21

116:3

based 33:8 63:13

101:16 127:3

132:3 150:2

161:4 199:6,8,10

202:5,8 213:17

248:20 249:1

264:7,21 272:5

275:15 283:19

284:18 286:16

296:2

309:5,8,18,21

basic 9:8,10 13:4

14:12,21 16:21

17:12 18:1 30:9

31:4,5,8

62:16,17

63:13,14,22

64:1,2,10

66:14,19 67:4

72:12,15 73:7

77:18 78:16,18

97:22 98:1

129:12 179:13

181:14 189:9,18

198:20,21

199:15

200:16,17

201:2,3,7,17

202:2

230:19,20,22

basically 7:11 23:3

54:1 90:12

102:22 110:10

155:9 176:7

194:9 203:6

218:11 232:14

245:2 252:15

305:3

basis 56:21 57:18

battle 124:11

Bauman 2:11

25:22 197:11

312:5

Bean 2:12

196:4,6,11

beast 25:16

beat 294:11

become 23:21 34:6

65:11 121:18

186:2

becomes 28:22

95:6,16 104:3

122:21 208:13

bed 116:22 302:6

bedsides 175:6

Beever 2:13 112:6

120:14,16,18,20

122:8 123:14

124:8,17

125:1,10,20

127:13,16,19,21

128:3

begin 214:2

beginning 8:22

134:4 192:16

behalf 210:19

behind

27:15,19,21

228:13 264:4

belief 264:7

believe 41:8,14

42:7,11 54:13

55:10 69:8 79:19

170:4 182:20

212:1 215:13

216:17 237:10

242:16 244:16

250:21 252:20

253:11 268:14

296:10 298:13

300:11 316:12

believes 227:5

238:3 239:19

253:14

bells 31:21

belong 185:9

303:10

beneficial 230:12

297:17

benefit 184:22

244:11

besides 257:3

best 53:8 55:13

58:1 183:5 184:5

190:9 191:1

223:19 264:6

283:9 295:3

bet 174:1

better 26:22 28:20

40:10,11 45:15

53:8 75:1 87:4

89:2 100:6 162:4

169:14 173:22

181:3 191:9

217:10,13 227:6

268:19

beyond 102:16

115:22 127:13
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bigger 14:11

105:15

107:10,12

111:11 119:6

140:9 209:15

bit 4:7 6:19 26:22

81:19 93:8 95:14

107:12,13 112:1

160:6 166:1

198:7 228:5

251:12 272:16

286:1

bits 251:12

black 74:8

blank 203:8

299:10

blanket 262:18

blanks 226:12

blast 195:7,14

197:1

blind 297:16

blower 167:1,3

blowers 166:13

blowing 262:19

board 150:5

Bob 67:22

73:17,19 80:17

92:22 106:4

111:15 113:19

114:4 123:9

126:18 131:11

134:14 168:10

170:10 172:20

201:10 223:9

286:8 289:4

298:9 299:22

300:1 304:15

311:3 314:21

body 18:22 20:6

21:21

boiler 244:3,4,7

245:13,14

boilers 13:3 16:14

232:15 241:3

245:7 247:7

249:5

boils 236:17

bomb 52:14

book 308:4 309:16

books 58:15

Border 199:4

bothered 287:22

bottom 235:8

bought 119:15

163:1

bounds 30:2

box 290:9 314:20

brand 182:5

198:20 201:16

202:2

breadth 138:22

break 66:2,3 157:3

220:3 261:12

302:19

Brenda 58:22

brief 66:5 220:4

bring 26:1 88:15

137:11 179:13

216:8

brings 302:11

broken 158:21

brought 105:5

185:6 209:18

271:1 304:15

brow 253:19

Btu 13:20 244:20

257:22 269:1

296:15,21

307:21 308:2

btus 91:16 241:14

257:16

Btus 220:22

238:18

buckets 148:22

buddy 300:12

budget 142:11

bugged 34:4

build 24:1 57:11

160:11,14,20

271:10 305:13

Builder 106:7,16

building 1:12

30:14 42:20

104:14 105:14

109:11 114:20

130:13,17 131:7

136:7,16 138:3,4

150:16 230:14

254:15

buildings 137:2

153:8

builds 160:18

242:14

built 19:13,20

29:20 75:2 123:3

269:11

built-in 269:22

bullet 235:8 237:5

257:4,8 267:13

277:8,13 295:14

300:9,21 301:22

302:17 304:6

313:22 316:19

bullets 277:21

bunch 104:16

115:4 265:18

burden 57:10

burdensome

139:20 233:19

270:11 281:3

burner 14:11

burners 15:2

business 68:1

204:21

206:10,20

212:7,20 213:1

222:6

buy 151:2 157:22

158:3,8 163:7,8

263:5

buying 130:6

152:8 157:14

262:17

bypass 165:1,4

181:20

C

cabinet

20:7,9,10,11

22:4,5 23:3,4,9

25:19

26:3,11,14,17

114:14

cabinets 23:13

119:1 263:11

275:9,10

calculated 256:18

279:1,4

calculation 241:22

242:1,4 250:12

269:11

calculations

253:13 254:4

270:1

calibration 142:8
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California 25:1

29:22 150:16

151:22 153:3,4,5

capabilities 85:16

capability 85:19

86:1

capacities 15:14

capacitor 83:22

84:1

capacitors 83:18

capacity 15:1,14

16:1,2,4 57:21

220:22 221:17

235:5 241:14

245:17,18 249:6

285:19,20,22

287:14,17

288:19

295:18,19,22

296:2,7,8,9,21

297:6,8

301:13,14,17

306:16,19 311:1

312:9,18,19,20

313:4,7,8,10,11

315:1,13

Capital 1:21

capture 151:8

288:4

captured 61:6

316:10

car 113:2

carbon 6:11

care 10:1 16:22

43:11 72:18

108:4 233:10

294:20 295:2

careful 263:9

carefully 53:14

Carrier 3:14 68:1

73:17,20 80:17

92:22 93:6 106:5

111:16 113:19

121:15 122:16

123:10 126:19

131:12 134:14

170:11 201:10

223:9 298:10

311:4

carrying 153:11

carryover 228:22

cars 153:5

case 16:14 21:7,14

24:9,13,19

25:13,15 31:5

35:9,11 41:8

43:17,22 48:12

52:16

56:6,10,12,17

75:3 96:21 97:4

106:18 132:20

137:12 162:3

172:10 184:4,5

205:8 209:16

250:1 251:12

252:6 256:2

276:7,12 280:19

283:11,20 284:3

299:7 311:9

cases 24:16 26:21

27:9 33:9 35:19

51:6 54:22

55:3,11

57:7,11,16 63:7

114:11 121:8

123:7 183:15

256:1 276:1,15

catalogue 200:2

categories 275:11

categorized

148:19

category 121:22

123:2,6 125:22

147:21

cause 134:22

146:18 282:3

284:4

causes 147:13

caveat 258:13

caveats 259:5,20

CDEC 266:12

cells 15:3

centered 71:11

central 75:11

289:2 290:2

294:1

centrifugal 121:10

122:12,19

certain 14:22

22:18 33:10 46:5

47:3 60:17 62:21

71:12,13 74:1

83:13 99:5 106:9

135:2,17,18

138:20 144:18

179:12 229:13

264:11 275:7

282:8 294:19

certainly 86:15

88:13 151:10

160:15 173:5

186:5 190:15

225:9 292:1

299:14

certainty 125:12

CERTIFICATE

318:1 319:1

320:2 321:1

322:1 323:1

certification 108:1

112:2,4 115:14

116:20 189:11

190:1,2

198:3,4,16

199:6,7,10

203:16 204:14

220:16

225:10,13,21

226:4 228:2,8

232:1,7 235:20

265:13 281:2

286:11 307:9

308:8,20

certifications

200:7 203:20

254:1 308:18

certified 200:4

203:18,19,21

253:17

certify 129:5

140:16,18 167:2

291:9 318:5

319:3 320:4

321:3 322:3

323:3

certifying 125:4

264:6,9

cetera 43:10

110:20 150:22

161:10 204:8

208:5,8 279:14

296:5

CFR 55:1 302:19

chains 67:17

chair 10:22 11:11

chairs 10:21

challenge 81:16,17

88:10 137:13

219:15

challenged 81:19

chance 191:6

236:19

change 29:16

41:11 87:9 119:2
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139:5,15 144:3,4

153:3 159:1

160:7,10 186:9

200:18 211:18

263:7,12 268:3

291:16 292:20

changed 8:1,14

121:9 122:14

269:9

change-over 291:3

changes 16:18

61:9,10,11 89:3

95:7 256:9

289:19 308:3

changing 87:17

156:8 159:22

162:12

characteristic

13:18 14:5

characteristics

13:9,10,17

14:3,11 17:17

88:12 131:6

characterize

148:21

charge 281:17

283:8

charging 271:16

281:20

Charles 2:19

Charlie 19:11 20:8

21:6 22:8 23:1

24:3 26:2,16

27:7,13

28:9,12,21 32:3

34:2 37:1,9

38:17 43:14 45:2

46:2 48:3

53:12,13 59:16

62:6 65:14 200:6

227:18 230:11

263:3 267:12

268:20 269:6,16

274:1 275:5

chart 202:20

charting 272:13

chassis 286:13

cheap 173:22

check 8:12 163:21

214:7 249:9

253:16,21 254:7

270:6 302:20

307:19

checked 265:19

checking

247:16,21 291:6

checks 203:7

chilled 266:21

267:7 278:8

choices 151:20

choose 64:22 65:1

79:22 146:11

152:17 217:9,17

228:4,15 231:14

263:11 272:17

chooses 64:19

chose 281:5,7

Christine 1:20 5:3

318:3,16

circle 144:8 191:2

circuit 29:11

circuits 54:12

circulate 179:6

circumscribe

65:20

circumstances

19:18

circumvent 29:14

cited 249:12

claim 64:7 204:19

222:5

claimed 263:16

claims 205:2,3

264:4 292:2

clarification 14:13

28:10 33:22 35:1

36:14 37:20

41:16 47:8 61:8

80:18 83:20

153:19 181:18

215:1 263:22

278:16 309:1

clarifications

61:22 62:19

79:13 83:21

clarified 9:11

272:21

clarify 21:5 54:12

70:6 80:1 92:19

105:3 125:15

126:10 149:6

clarity 221:16

278:14

class 71:4 127:1

143:15,17

198:18

201:16,22

232:15,19

239:22 246:2,6

297:21

classes 236:5,7

243:18 296:11

classification

126:1 259:7

classified 222:1

258:1

classify 74:15

114:8

clear 19:6 20:15

27:12 28:7

32:1,19 33:3

36:14 57:16

58:12 69:6,8

74:18 81:4 92:12

99:1 106:20,21

111:18 122:4

183:17 192:3

193:2 260:17

302:4 314:22

316:12

clearer 65:11

clearly 41:10 68:8

92:9 104:3 106:2

146:2 272:14

283:5

clears 285:10

Cleaver-Brooks

3:6

climate 3:15 6:5

216:14 218:12

close 142:21

148:4,9 150:3

179:14 187:4

256:4 276:16

closed 43:17

209:16

closer 150:9

closure 46:6

189:19

Co 3:5

coast 75:21 76:5

coastal 73:4

coated 46:19,21

47:2,8,10

48:4,15 49:20

50:5,8,12,17,20

52:9,15

53:4,15,19,22

62:3 70:20,22

71:7 72:5,19
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74:9,19 83:8,13

101:10

166:19,22

180:2,7

coating 47:5

48:6,8,20

49:2,3,6,14,21

50:1,2 51:4,20

52:17 71:7,15,18

72:1,3,10,13

73:21 74:4 75:19

coatings 51:9

71:13

code 141:12

274:12 283:21

codes 33:8 153:12

294:17,18,20

295:4,5

coil 47:10 48:7,8

49:20 52:9,15

72:6,19

73:12,14,20 74:9

85:3,7 132:17

145:3,4,16 167:1

173:12 187:8

coils 45:6 46:19,21

47:2,8

48:4,15,16

50:6,8,12,17,21

53:4,15,19 54:1

62:3 70:20,22

71:7,22 72:3,6

74:19 75:19 78:9

79:1 83:8,13

85:10 101:10

166:19 180:2,7

coils/thermal 83:2

cold 277:3

colder 284:3

collect 190:3

198:16 220:16

229:20 232:2

234:4 244:14

246:19,22 247:8

249:3,9

253:10,22 254:3

260:20 279:5

295:11 297:5,8

310:6 312:5

collected 245:8

collecting 250:17

260:17,18 278:9

295:13

collective 184:13

collectively 140:16

collects 220:8

228:17 241:3

245:4 266:9

Collin 3:19

Color 67:18

column 198:22

202:18

columns 199:19

combination 23:13

101:15 129:20

135:2 137:18

167:3 187:4

311:6,7 314:1

combinations 75:3

229:9

combined 227:3

combustion 10:12

241:4,12 265:12

comes 50:5 65:7

109:13 134:9

167:16 172:10

204:3 212:21

224:19 261:7

comfortable 8:16

17:4,9 38:1

39:18 163:20

227:19 285:14

313:17

coming 5:19

6:14,17 22:20

28:1 30:13

43:6,8 85:10

91:12 114:19

158:10 163:15

166:5 167:7

182:12 288:17

comma 306:9

comment 31:14

39:6 57:7,10

58:13 142:4

170:11 174:7

183:5 196:5,9

213:5 217:22

218:11 223:10

227:20 245:12

comments 7:17

9:14 13:5 17:3

40:17 47:12

78:12 82:21

86:22 102:10

149:8 168:19

246:1 256:21

277:19

comment's 85:16

Comments 21:2

83:7

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commercial 7:7

9:13 10:5 13:3

16:14 17:6,11,13

31:20 58:8 71:12

75:1 77:5,6 82:2

109:7,13 114:8

126:5 140:4,11

142:22 151:3

155:7,11

160:12,20

169:17

170:12,16

176:8,14 186:22

192:6 193:9

220:13,17 229:3

232:20

233:21,22

235:13

240:2,3,18 241:2

244:21 245:6

246:9,10,18,21

247:4 248:16,17

251:13 254:2

256:6 260:12

264:19 265:21

266:17,18,19

267:1 278:10

291:13 296:20

297:6 303:18

commercials

23:10

commit 31:18

commitment 88:5

Committee 1:7

317:11

common 156:20

183:3 224:17

274:6

commonly 156:22

245:16

community's

291:17

companies 124:18

company 1:21

2:21 124:22

140:3 160:11,12

218:13 222:1,15

237:10 239:19

compare 230:16

compared 133:8

136:11,14

288:16

comparing 290:1

comparison
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compartment

266:22 278:8

compete 292:1

competing 291:18

competitive

217:16

competitor 208:22

complain 227:7

270:13 273:21

280:15

complaining 175:2

237:14

complete 168:22

208:18 319:8

320:9 321:8

322:8 323:8

completely 20:19

21:20 45:14 46:7

54:5 113:1

178:21 239:7

complex 84:13

106:5

complexity 159:9

compliance 58:16

209:14 231:13

248:19 261:5

262:2 267:8

compliant 201:4

comply 259:16

complying 153:10

component 85:7

104:1 132:10

188:3 217:4

components

84:11,15,17,20

86:3,10 88:17,19

compressor

89:16,21 90:15

314:9

compressors 89:15

90:21 91:1

compressor's 91:5

compromise

158:22 159:1

174:11,15

182:16

compromising

157:5 159:14

computer 176:21

182:11,13 190:8

191:17 193:13

196:8,12 197:9

conceivable 153:2

conceivably 14:12

concept 32:22

186:5 201:7

conceptually

296:13

concern 16:12

74:8 146:17

231:11 290:12

concerned 28:5

30:3 120:6 185:6

226:14 228:12

concerns 7:13 17:8

39:17 40:12,18

59:8 60:9 61:2

65:22 78:12 81:8

83:7,17 84:3,10

146:14 165:20

166:12 219:10

concurrent 88:2

condensate

34:17,19

35:10,14,20

36:10,11,15,17

37:16 62:6,7

182:20,21

condenser 40:14

72:6 90:17

102:21

104:18,20

105:10 106:19

107:4

111:3,6,16,17

112:7,9

113:20,21 114:5

121:2 122:1

124:10 127:8

129:2 131:15

132:17,21

133:20 134:4

143:6,16

180:16,19,22

181:5 271:17,20

condensers 54:3

121:15

268:17,21

271:22

condensing 13:18

14:4 40:22

122:11,19 123:4

241:6,9,11

267:4,10

277:8,13 279:14

305:13

condition 187:8

conditioners 75:11

82:3 193:14

197:9 293:12,13

306:9

conditioning 2:11

196:8,13 296:20

297:7 303:19

conditions 38:13

46:3 60:17,18

70:6 86:5,14

88:13,21 90:5

109:10 132:13

135:9,22 137:6

140:18,19 155:5

186:22 191:18

297:15

conduct 222:11

224:10,12 243:4

conducting 222:1

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confidential

204:21

206:10,20

207:7,16 209:20

212:7,20 213:1

222:2,6

314:14,16

configuration

127:3,4,12 131:7

144:18 220:19

228:18,19 230:5

234:2 236:17

267:11 277:8,14

304:14

configurations

229:2,6 230:22

configured

117:5,14

confused 15:22

51:11 148:3

170:20 257:7

confuses 245:17

confusing 49:13

274:18

confusion 65:7

203:11

Congress 211:19

congressional

127:17 144:2

conjunction

172:21

connected 172:6

216:2
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connection 172:18

consensus 18:18

211:15 215:11

consequential

173:15

conservative

154:21

consider 46:20

47:7,11 50:10

55:17 56:14,22

59:4,13 71:3

75:10 77:14

78:16 83:12

84:13 90:16

109:4 110:10

114:10 121:7

126:12,22 127:9

138:20 142:18

146:7 167:4

189:5 192:18

256:22 273:8

278:15

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consideration

33:20 184:3

considerations

101:21

169:15,16

considered 17:20

26:5 29:18

48:21,22 63:21

72:16 74:19

75:12 92:5

103:20 183:10

257:22 280:5

considering 19:5

20:2 44:20 52:7

96:2

consistency 221:19

consistent 45:5

60:15 263:16

constant 93:2,3

95:11,16 97:19

98:10 99:2

construction 63:6

100:2

Consultants 2:17

consume 20:22

consumed 63:10

consumer 71:16

75:4 107:17

132:11 152:16

157:20 292:9

consumer's 132:12

consuming 28:17

171:11

consumption

17:17 22:18

28:1,3,11,14

53:22 63:15 71:5

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266:21

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278:7,18 305:16

contact 194:21

224:3,4 231:6

281:9,12

contain 266:4

contained 206:19

266:17 277:15

containing 78:9

contaminants

59:12

Cont'd 3:2

content 73:5

contest 261:19

context 16:9 169:9

210:17,20

227:14 282:21

continual 24:15

Continued 3:1

continues 288:18

continuing 158:11

199:1

contract 210:7

211:2 291:10

contractor 92:17

210:14,19,22

213:11

contractors 138:4

210:6 292:15

contracts 210:22

contractual

262:16

contradict 264:15

control 60:13

116:11 241:6

263:8,9 290:9

controller

38:10,12,14

316:9

controlling 37:10

controls 38:9,12

289:8 294:1

295:2 315:16

controversial

185:19

conventional

277:9

conversation

112:22 128:1

227:13 255:7

convertible 230:8

convince 205:15

cool 2:13 30:15

31:2 125:1

coolant 54:11

cooled 143:15

295:16 296:5,21

300:11,12,15,18

301:11 302:12

304:13,14

305:4,13,18

308:2,8

coolers 277:2

cooling

88:10,11,18

285:19,22

287:14,17

295:18

296:2,7,21

297:6,8

301:13,17 311:1

312:9,18

313:8,10,11

COP 285:20,22

287:14,16 288:4

289:2,19 291:2

292:2 296:8,9

297:8 301:14,16

303:5

306:16,21,22

310:8,22 311:2

312:19,20 313:9

315:1

copies 7:19

8:16,17

copper 78:6,9

173:11

copy 8:13

cord 23:7 29:2

30:13,18

cords 33:18

core 114:14

Corey 3:21 62:14

corner 33:4

Corporation 3:10

correct 10:17

12:18,20 37:4
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38:19 42:11

43:6,18 45:18

47:19 62:10

70:18,20 79:3,9

95:5 112:10

144:15,18

145:17 188:19

196:13 204:9

215:16 216:9,21

227:9 233:9

282:15 319:7

320:8 321:7

322:8 323:7

correction 83:18

199:1

corrections 168:9

correctly 168:11

217:5 237:8

correspond 16:3

corresponds

296:10

corrosionresistant 74:3

corrosive 47:4

49:8 51:8 72:4

73:5

Cory 91:7

177:6,20

cost 157:10 188:21

218:1

cost-effective

231:7

costly 157:6

Council 3:9

counted 22:6

counter 46:9 53:18

couple 5:12 15:14

120:21 125:3

126:10 146:4

168:9

169:11,12,13

176:9,16 179:9

187:14 189:9

218:16 267:12

270:16 274:1

275:11

couples 271:10

course 224:3

courses 291:12

court 4:22 5:2

11:2,5,8 39:22

41:19 64:15

73:16,18

100:16,18

103:12 105:20

112:15 154:10

192:9 193:7

195:18

197:16,21

234:20 301:1

308:12

318:1,3,16

319:3,6 320:4,7

321:3,6 322:4,6

323:3,6

cover 121:17

126:1 212:14

coverage 58:14

covered 41:22

127:1 178:1

198:16,21

200:17 252:12

304:17

covers 40:21 41:6

48:11,12 66:18

67:4 123:6 126:9

300:11

craft 169:8

crankcase

60:11,21

cranking 126:5

crashing 301:6

crazy 188:14

CRE 8:8,9 19:2

36:17 61:18

62:13 67:10

83:10 170:13

174:3 175:18

180:3 181:8,13

197:13 266:8,9

271:8,11,22

cream 274:12

create 127:1

created 126:1

252:10

credit 167:22

246:14

criteria 79:6

130:17 131:8

critical 251:4

263:1

cross 25:6

crown 23:3

cubic 266:22 267:3

curiosity 251:4

curious 155:15

156:5 216:16

276:17

current 42:8 43:4

58:7 82:2 243:1

279:16 286:22

304:6

currently 220:20

228:1 235:10

241:11 242:17

243:21 261:9

266:16

285:19,21

287:13,16

295:13 296:7,19

301:12,16

curtain 42:3

43:3,17

293:14,16

curtains 41:5

curve 139:18

curves 288:20

custom 146:22

147:2 254:15

customer 18:19

23:2,5,21 25:8

27:11 30:7,16

31:1,7 35:21

97:4 114:14

115:5 129:22

130:3 131:21

134:22 168:5

217:5,9 289:22

290:6 292:4

customer-driven

21:15

customerprovided 114:12

customers 18:21

22:1 27:14,17

108:4 117:21

119:17 288:6

293:2

customized 75:2

105:15 114:18

customizing 115:9

Customs 199:4

cut 30:3 244:10

cutoff 23:12

cycle 25:18 36:18

cycling 36:21

Cymbalsky 2:4

4:9,21 5:2,9

11:14,18,20

15:16 16:6 51:12

63:18 66:2,16,18
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112:18,19 120:8

123:19

128:8,13,18

129:11 130:18

132:8 133:15

151:17 152:7

157:6,12,18,21

158:3 164:2,7

166:16 180:12

243:8,11 247:18

248:8,11,13

250:18 251:5

283:2 303:21

304:11 312:12

D

D.C 1:13

Daikin 3:3

daily 266:20

267:2,6,14,17

278:7

damn 173:11

damper 147:17

148:4,9 265:12

dampers 146:8

147:7,22 149:5,7

165:17

Dane 2:14 65:6,16

182:17

183:1,6,9,12

192:5,10 197:7

270:9 273:20

280:13,20

281:1,11

darn 293:14,16

dashed 257:8

data 117:3 119:11

132:6 161:6,8

206:1,18 207:16

208:18,19 213:6

219:4 251:13

263:20 270:5

279:12 289:19

database 203:18

204:4,14 230:13

datacom 196:7

date 5:22 199:7,9

308:6 309:9,12

319:14 320:15

321:14 322:14

323:14

day 20:13 49:7

79:12 142:13

155:20 169:6

192:6 273:22

298:6

days 5:11,13

de 34:3 208:13

dead 294:11

deadline 218:19

deal 31:12 37:19

55:13 62:4 66:22

78:5 81:19

173:10 181:12

203:13 214:13

226:17 269:9

271:12

dealing 165:9

dealt 125:17

debate 252:4

decide 65:10 78:17

168:15 171:18

238:11

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decides 64:20

decision 47:1

71:20 130:10,14

155:3 163:20

192:3 213:7

294:11

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280:6

decorative

67:8,14,15 74:4

decrease 134:22

decremented

51:20

dedicated

186:2,20

187:17,19

188:16

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defendant 75:16

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define 26:3 28:22

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110:10 180:10

181:13 268:12

defined 86:2,6

87:2 92:9

149:12,16 180:7

241:21 257:16

268:15 272:14

defining 26:16

52:9

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76:9 108:15

140:6 144:5

168:3,4 177:8

238:12

definition

9:11,12,15 10:2

12:2,4,10 13:3,6

15:12 18:1 28:8

30:11 32:11 47:9

48:16

62:13,16,17

63:13 64:10

65:8,17

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178:7 180:7

186:22 190:8,11

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definitions 9:8

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definitive 47:1

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Degitsz 3:20

degradation 51:18

degradations

71:14

degree 274:16

288:5

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245:15 274:16

275:10 276:3

283:20 284:1

288:3,9 306:16

dehum 85:7

dehumidification

84:11,15,16,20

85:15,19 86:3,8

88:17 181:17

deleted 258:6

deletions 279:15

demonstrate 267:8

denied 124:17

125:20

density 33:7

deny 125:12

denying 125:16

department 1:4,10

2:5,6,7 7:12

17:18 31:18 34:4
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44:10 46:20 49:5

50:10 56:13

61:21 63:9

71:6,8 74:18,21

76:7 77:17 78:10

83:3 87:5 88:5

91:21 97:7

108:14 134:5

135:7 137:22

138:20 142:16

165:3 166:20

168:3 169:15

175:11 180:14

191:19 192:1

200:1

206:2,6,11,14,15

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208:15 212:6

220:16 223:7

224:12 228:7,9

229:20 232:1

234:4 250:16

253:10 273:12

292:9,19

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137:13 143:7

167:5 180:10

183:4 184:3

dependent 143:2

158:14 164:8

263:5 269:6

depending 38:13

75:7 105:9,13

164:20 256:8

269:7 281:22

299:16,17

depends 173:16

288:13

Depot 150:21

151:3 152:8

163:8

derate 152:1

describe 54:22

108:1 159:3

286:13

described 103:15

description 18:20

72:4

144:11,12,13

239:11

description's

83:10

descriptive 271:9

desiccant

85:4,5,12

181:17,18,19

design 35:10,20

73:20 85:8

100:21 102:22

109:9 110:7

230:14 291:16

294:12

Designated 2:4

designation

267:10

designed 35:11

46:8 53:16

56:5,10 57:20

designers 292:16

designing

132:11,14 153:8

designs 100:2

230:15

design-specific

109:14

desire 239:2,8

255:5

desires 238:19

detailed 159:11

details 13:8 112:8

207:18 212:15

213:18

determination

206:11

213:12,13,17

250:13 252:22

determinations

250:11

determine 132:5

205:8 206:19

246:6 251:17

253:2 272:2

290:19

determined 15:1

81:6 201:4

216:19

determines 212:6

determining 265:1

deterrence 147:1

detrimental 51:9

71:16

develop 219:17

developed 291:18

developing 69:9

Development 3:6

deviate 283:5

device

146:18,20,21

227:6

devices 38:21 39:3

40:21

devil 119:7

devil's 13:8

diameter 143:18

diameters 230:2

Diane 2:22 14:19

73:22 74:11

75:17 101:12

102:5 104:5

Dick 136:10

difference 98:8

183:10 188:5

205:22 210:1

229:18 238:21

281:2

different 5:2 7:21

9:9 14:10 25:16

27:11,14 29:19

30:7 33:2 49:2,3

50:1,2 52:19

54:5 55:15

56:1,22

63:10,14,15

64:12 65:3,4,14

67:2,5,17 68:7

71:3,18 72:17,21

75:2 91:5 98:11

101:15,20 104:9

113:5 114:1

116:7 119:14

120:21 124:18

127:11,12

132:10 144:19

148:19 158:17

159:5 171:20

180:4 183:7

186:15 190:14

193:8 200:12,22

201:1,3 204:12

206:13 211:2,5

221:9,13

229:14,17

230:21 236:4,6

239:8 240:16

246:17 250:11

253:20 265:6

267:5,16 269:17

271:19 276:5

280:7 281:19,22

282:21 284:20

293:11 296:10

303:7,8 307:19

differential 17:20

19:10
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differentiate 22:14

35:9

49:5,6,19,21

52:9 64:11

74:3,20 91:22

96:19 99:6

107:1,9,16

108:20 109:4

147:5

differentiates 47:2

differentiating

50:19 53:7

differentiation

83:16 103:19

135:15 147:9

differently 41:12

65:2 71:20

175:15 190:20

263:11 270:14

298:1

differs 235:18

difficult 74:14

231:13

difficulties 216:2

dig 7:18

digit 116:10

Digital 318:16

digits 116:7

dimension 286:17

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58:16 167:16

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14:2,8 16:6,7

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253:22 254:3

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54:11

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278:8

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fuel 12:9 13:11,16

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full 23:10 31:14

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194:11,12,15,17,

18 196:21

210:17 214:10

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fully-loaded 31:19

function 20:12

functional

13:10,17,18

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fundamental

62:12 136:2

furnace 9:14

12:12,14 14:22

220:18 228:18

234:1 236:4,15

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gain 251:22

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259:14

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GDM 24:9

geared 271:13

general 18:17 27:9

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244:21 263:20

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122:22

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185:12

189:3,10,17
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H

hail 84:5,7,8,9

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half-inch 124:2

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88:19

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Hurst 2:18 246:4

hurt 95:1

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incentive 100:6

inch 72:7 139:3

262:22

inches 68:22 69:5

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includes 178:19

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304:13

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122:18

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inside 25:13,17

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276:16,19
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insight 109:3

inspector 227:5

install 23:22

105:16 143:3

installation 107:18

installed 44:3

112:21

123:16,17

131:3,9 133:9,12

135:9,21 136:19

137:16 138:14

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instantaneous

247:5 250:14

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22:4 40:3 81:18

85:19 89:8

94:18,19 95:17

96:13 97:3,12

275:22 276:4,11

integration 99:14

intended 132:15

168:1 274:21

277:4

intent 74:10 125:6

137:9 138:15

147:4 270:22

282:11

interact 175:14

interest 174:11

223:19 232:8

283:9 318:11

interested

250:17,18,22

Interior/exterior

61:4

internal 54:11

134:22 135:1

International 2:18

Internet 118:1

interpolation

16:19

interpret 14:16

15:3 85:11

interpretation

65:18

interrupt 211:10

Intertek 162:8

168:8

intertwined

142:15

interview 209:20

intricacies 113:6

invariably 272:17

inverter 90:22

investigate 55:15

254:7

investigation

209:14

invitation 191:21

involve 86:13

involved 116:17

295:6

involves 192:22

264:5

IPOV 287:15

isn't 133:6 139:6

203:19 209:12

251:15

ISO 168:9,14

303:12,16,19

isolation 165:17

issue 7:18 19:4

34:22 35:3,4

36:13,19

37:17,18 39:12

40:16 41:4 48:14

51:18 58:10,21

59:9 60:10

61:3,15 62:3

72:21 79:13

80:10 82:4,13,22

83:3,18,21

84:4,6 85:11

87:8,16 88:3

89:7 99:14

103:21 104:22

108:13 124:13

125:16 128:8,10

129:2,3,12

133:6,21 134:5

136:3 142:13

143:7,8 144:6

145:19,20 146:6

148:6 149:3,9,12

159:8 164:10

165:3,18

166:2,7,15 173:6

175:9 180:19

181:7 182:14,15

186:19 187:2

195:9 196:4

199:17 209:16

212:3 213:16

216:6,11,13

219:14 226:14

237:7 253:8,9

260:3,21 268:16

273:3,8,9,18

289:6,7 291:10

292:5,17 293:11

294:15 298:5,6

299:14

304:10,15

issues 7:9 46:17

61:19,21 62:11

66:9,22 67:3

72:17 76:3 77:6

82:4 125:17

146:14 164:22

165:2,12 166:12

168:4 169:4,13

179:14,19 180:1

182:6 189:10,18

228:16 260:7

286:20

issuing 44:20

46:21 59:5,13

62:18 84:14
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146:7

item 46:18 89:9,16

145:22 217:3

285:15

items 26:20 67:21

182:3 192:21

205:9 209:13

235:7,10

245:8,11 279:17

it'll 113:3 128:18

132:21 139:19

175:7

it's 6:8 7:21

8:1,2,10 10:7,12

12:20,22

15:6,7,8,20

16:21 18:19,22

19:1,17

21:7,16,17,19

22:4,5,16 24:10

25:12,15,17,19

26:14 28:15

29:8,9,10 36:21

37:8 38:13,15

41:7,22 43:10

44:2 49:15,16

50:15 51:12,20

52:1 55:1 57:17

58:10 59:21,22

60:21 61:14 63:4

65:9,15 67:16,19

72:5 73:2,3,5,12

74:9,13

76:1,9,13 77:21

78:8 79:19

81:4,10 82:18

85:3,6 86:12

87:7 88:2

89:3,19 90:7,11

91:13

94:8,9,17,18,19,

20 95:14 96:14

97:2,3,8 99:1,3

100:1,14,17,19

101:4,8,21

103:4,8

105:2,10,13

106:5,21

107:12,13

108:15

109:8,10,14

111:9,13,17,18

112:2,11 113:13

114:6,13,14

115:17 116:17

117:8,13 119:10

121:13 123:4

124:14 125:2

126:2,7,17

130:5,6,7,16

131:15 132:18

133:10,13,18,19,

20 134:1,7,8

137:3,15 138:7,8

139:20 140:7

141:16,18

142:10,16 145:6

146:9 147:1,12

149:16 151:14

152:18

153:2,16,21

154:11 155:8

156:12,20 157:7

160:21 161:9

164:8 166:2,21

167:22 168:6

170:22 171:5,6

172:3,6

173:3,6,12,14,16

,18,19 175:3,11

177:8,20

180:16,18,19,20

181:6,22

182:11,12

184:18 185:22

186:22

187:5,13,15

188:1,21 190:13

192:22

194:5,7,8,12,14,

15,18 195:19

197:17,19

198:22 199:1

202:14,15

204:5,10 205:7

207:3,9,12

208:19 210:14

217:4 224:18

226:13 231:3,20

238:10

242:10,11 243:7

244:7 246:15

247:18 248:4

250:3 256:8

268:6 269:16

271:2,4,17

272:1,2

273:8,17,21

275:4 277:6,14

278:1,3 280:21

283:8,10 285:2

287:4 288:7,8,9

289:1 290:8,9,15

291:9 292:4

293:13 294:14

296:13

297:4,17,18

300:5 303:5,7,8

304:22 309:9

311:16 312:6,17

313:6,14

315:11,12

316:11

I've 50:15 63:1

110:22 125:9

136:9 188:14

192:14 236:22

271:17 287:22

291:12

J

Jakobs 2:22

14:16,19 15:7,9

73:22 75:17

101:12 102:2

104:5

JANET 320:4,15

Jeff 2:11 3:8 25:22

197:11 247:10

250:9 252:19

253:18 254:5

256:14 257:15

260:13,15

263:13

264:10,17

272:18

JEMISON

319:3,14

Jill 2:20 10:15

11:4,7 91:15

100:13 110:16

114:3 116:5

136:10 153:1

156:10 160:18

163:15 193:16

198:10 206:21

230:18 292:7

300:10

job 5:22

John 2:4,12,18 4:6

5:8 16:1 112:18

115:20 120:5

142:8 196:4,6

John's 137:1

Johnson 3:3

68:16,19,21

69:2,12,14,17

70:2,8 92:13,19

148:2,6,8,14,18

149:2 153:18

154:4

joining 194:1

judgment 283:12

Jull 147:10

July 1:15
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Justice 2:10

K

Kareem's 60:22

Karen 3:5 10:3

12:8 86:20

109:6,17 133:4

160:9 164:3

204:6 205:17

239:10,17

242:13 245:3

Karen's 245:22

Karim 2:9 9:18

58:5 69:20 73:9

87:6 94:6 96:5

109:16 119:18

124:12 128:13

129:1 130:2

140:16 141:19

153:14 161:21

169:21

175:10,16

176:20 179:11

190:7 194:10

195:16 203:10

211:17

219:13,22 220:1

273:10 284:17

289:14 296:1,14

297:22 299:22

303:2,11 307:5

310:20 313:2

Karim's 10:4

97:11 154:17

167:2

key 64:5 103:21

199:22

kick 288:11

kicked 90:1 181:9

308:19

kicks 295:1

kinds 29:4 76:3

183:7 271:6

kit 52:18 115:3

Kleiss 3:8 247:10

250:9 252:19

253:18 254:5

256:14

257:12,15,19

258:3

259:6,10,12

263:13

264:10,17

272:18

knowledge 224:17

264:7

Kojak 3:4 31:3

105:5,9 110:22

111:20 180:15

218:3 223:21

224:14 225:1

231:1 235:12

236:21 237:6

270:21 275:21

276:13 305:15

L

lab 151:11 152:10

162:9 163:14

210:21,22

213:10

214:11,14 224:3

226:5 231:1,6

237:2 271:18

281:7,9 283:4

314:19

label 113:8

labeled 205:9

labeler 198:19

202:1 204:20

205:4

Laboratories 3:4

labs 208:16 212:12

lack 40:11 169:14

181:2

language 22:13

23:18 34:10

66:21 188:1

large 23:4 57:14

104:14 121:18

140:12 154:22

173:7 190:13

296:5 302:18,19

303:18 304:19

305:13

larger 51:9 68:4

99:19 107:17

119:1,3 196:15

254:21 255:12

last 4:5 5:12,15 6:3

7:4 8:1,20 13:4

57:9 63:1

66:9,22 81:11

104:6 105:5

128:18 144:6

149:18 187:2

192:19 198:6

201:11

203:18,21 235:8

237:4 243:9

257:4 258:10

277:8,13 285:15

287:10,19

292:22 295:14

300:8,20 307:2

309:18 316:4,19

late 238:6

lately 187:15

later 85:11 99:13

103:2 212:17

282:16 288:18

302:10

latest 141:8

Laura 2:6 3:20 8:3

66:8 77:16 204:6

214:22 231:10

236:5 247:15

255:15 263:14

268:2

law 29:14 125:5,6

layer 72:7

least 5:7 6:18

16:13 46:14

61:12 67:8 78:7

108:21 131:14

162:22 184:7

190:9 212:18

222:18 254:21

255:9 273:14

288:21 294:17

304:18,19

leave 102:12 235:7

273:19 313:4

leaving 78:16

245:10,18

LED 26:8 63:8

64:7

LEDs 27:18

legal 198:13

206:12

length 24:7 105:9

Lennox 2:18

less 18:13 26:12

59:4 72:7 75:3

86:1 95:14 114:9

132:12,22

135:16 156:20

177:22 231:3

255:7 257:11

259:8,11 260:13

286:2 295:11,13

296:21 297:4

300:1 308:1

let's 8:21 16:8 18:5

66:3 77:12

116:16 122:20

130:19 132:19
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260:8 262:21

271:3 285:17

287:12 290:1,22

315:6

letters 266:12

letting 196:17

level 28:17 62:10

100:8 121:18

122:6 139:4

156:7 262:1

293:6

levels 29:19 34:21

49:2,3 63:10,15

117:1 142:15

144:4 155:19

156:2 159:6

240:17 286:22

291:2

LGE 39:4

life 155:1

light 27:15,19,21

28:1,16 30:18

114:8 140:3,11

160:12 173:4

207:3 313:15

lighting 19:15

21:11,13,14,18

23:2 24:10

26:6,7,8,21 27:8

28:3,11,13

29:19,20

33:7,12,15

63:8,12 181:8,13

lights 23:14,16

24:17,19

31:2,5,10

39:11,12,15

166:6,7,9,10

266:13,14

likely 151:12

155:4

limit 231:11

limited 155:8

limiting 85:17

88:4

limits 186:4

line 25:4,6 28:19

30:3 32:1 33:11

96:4 99:4 114:17

131:9 136:11,13

166:22 186:17

196:10,12

215:21 272:6

linear 269:2

liners 61:4,6,11

lines 222:18 223:1

links 136:11,14

liquid 85:11

268:5,7

list 17:19 18:6

24:22 25:1,7

30:7 67:8 77:11

88:8,9 97:19

98:5 106:12

119:9,12

169:14,17

170:15 182:7

185:19 189:6

192:14 201:12

231:17 232:16

233:4,18,20

235:3

241:15,16,19

247:13 251:7,11

257:2,3 258:8

259:22 265:3

267:6 278:17

279:16 282:17

286:4 287:7,9

292:21

297:11,20

313:18 316:17

listed 24:22 97:20

246:15 258:2,10

303:9 311:9

listening 197:18

listing 98:6,9,10

293:1

listings 98:11

lists 77:13,18

176:12 235:9

literature 68:3,9

81:4 92:10 93:8

108:3,21 111:18

132:1 292:14,16

294:6

little 4:7 9:2 26:22

30:18 31:1,17

42:14 49:12

65:11 75:1 81:19

84:12 93:8 95:14

107:12,13

151:13 159:8

160:6 161:16

166:1 188:14

198:7 228:5

238:6 251:12

254:14 257:7

268:3 272:16

286:1 294:2

LLC 3:4,8

load 95:2,4 99:17

271:11

loaded 263:4

loading 182:12,14

loads 90:11 291:13

loathe 5:21

local 294:17

localized 76:1

located 105:13

location 21:17

105:16 241:3

Lochinvar 3:8

247:10 250:9

252:19 253:18

254:5 256:14

257:15 263:13

272:18

lock 294:19

locked 294:12

logistics 196:1,21

long 5:19,20 6:7

23:10 47:8

87:8,14,19 89:3

92:11 111:13

139:13 142:5

184:5 200:3

longer 85:20 88:6

134:18 144:4

longer-term 33:22

long-term 55:14

57:5 82:3 87:15

loop 303:20

304:20

loophole 28:22

loopholing 143:20

Lore 136:10

losing 129:17

loss 242:6

246:13,19

247:1,9 248:19

250:12,13

251:18 253:1,3,4

255:8 259:17

264:20 265:10

losses 293:22

lost 225:22

lot 4:5 6:11

20:8,22 52:2

87:10,13 88:3

114:10 118:4

121:10 126:11
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154:22 155:10

156:20,21,22

167:11 175:12

182:4 183:16

192:22 200:8,22

209:21 218:1

219:3 220:1

225:5 231:3

236:22 245:12

251:1 254:2

260:15 267:4

269:7 270:17

271:2 272:8,9

277:20,21 295:3

314:16

lots 133:16

loud 200:15

louder 246:4

Louis 3:11 33:6

91:3 92:14 100:9

123:21 153:7

174:18 294:16

louvres 68:4

love 294:8

low 107:12 165:7

271:4 275:3,11

293:6,17 296:8,9

301:14

lower 15:16 53:21

63:18 89:22

90:11 115:15

119:2

Lowe's 150:22

151:3 157:17,19

163:8 291:13

lowest 15:19 16:1

lunch 76:12

128:12,15,21

M

machine 20:1

machinery 19:20

machines 155:1

made-up 262:10

magnitude 102:7

main 23:7

maintain 59:2

261:4

maintaining

284:15

major 22:17 29:9

majority 53:14,19

113:20 114:9

135:14,17

278:13

MALE 27:2

42:17,19 67:11

87:21 99:10

172:7 215:16

248:12 281:13

282:18 297:12

man 25:20

manner 56:1,8

60:15

manuals 272:13

manufacture 27:8

122:16 257:20

manufactured

17:14

manufacturer

17:14 38:11 50:4

51:19 57:10 63:5

64:18,19 65:10

70:15 78:17

94:18,20 95:18

97:3 110:15

116:18 121:14

129:4 132:7

138:8 172:16

174:22 186:14

188:22 196:8

201:22 205:9

206:1,8 207:12

212:5 216:15

223:4,8 224:19

225:10 226:15

227:4,11 237:3

238:3,11,19

243:12

253:14,17

255:21 262:2,17

263:1,15 264:1,6

271:6 272:19

288:14 289:21

290:6 291:1,8

298:8 315:10

manufacturerinstalled 116:1

manufacturerprivate 204:20

205:4

manufacturers 7:8

9:20 53:2 90:22

92:7 99:13

109:18 119:19

138:2,13 140:7

152:17 155:15

156:6 159:21

169:22 175:5

185:20 188:4

196:13,16

199:21 200:5

204:19 207:17

209:21 212:19

221:5 228:1

229:4 232:4

237:22 244:4

251:2 253:11

262:7,13 272:11

273:12 283:17

298:2 304:19

305:8 315:7

316:1

manufacturer's

139:22 186:4

198:18 206:9

212:4 223:19

225:18 272:22

292:14 298:6

Manufacturers

274:10

manufactures

138:2

manufacturing

2:19 3:5,13

19:11 45:2

101:14,21 200:6

263:3

Maranton 3:17

277:12

margin 100:20

mark 2:16 85:9

86:4 88:7 94:22

97:18 118:21

139:1 142:14

167:13 187:7

202:19 241:7

305:12

marked 204:2

275:18

market 49:3 53:19

73:3,7 109:7

113:16 126:3

153:13 217:16

229:1 244:22

305:9

marketed 277:2

marketing 25:6

markets 150:1,4

Mark's 85:16

married 305:14

Marshall 2:21

150:11 153:2

182:1 184:20

187:16 287:18
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292:8 293:9

294:5,10 305:6

Marshall's 184:15

Mary 2:14 65:6

182:17 192:5

270:9 283:2

321:3,14

Master 3:15

216:15 218:12

matched 304:21

material 7:13 61:9

72:9,11 241:3

materials 68:7

matter 76:9 99:3

143:4 168:6

191:16 205:7

211:4 230:2

244:6 246:2

296:3

maximum 220:21

221:17 235:4

238:17 241:13

246:19 247:1,8

266:20

267:2,6,14,17

278:7,15,18

may 9:4 18:21

27:1 34:21,22

35:9 46:14 49:9

51:4 55:3,4

65:13 75:7 78:20

81:18 83:20

85:17 93:1

107:10 109:1

114:1 151:9

155:22 158:9

161:21 169:20

172:15

175:12,21

183:22 185:19

187:6,9 204:11

219:2,9 222:22

228:3,14

230:19,21

232:18 254:5

271:15 290:18

308:4 316:4,6

maybe 10:6 26:22

33:8 50:1 58:6,9

87:3 100:10,11

102:14,15,19

107:12,19,21

108:8 123:22

129:16,17

135:15 137:11

140:12

175:16,17,18,20,

22 179:13

187:22 190:9,12

203:10 207:14

217:21 222:4

231:11 232:8

236:2 242:6

248:3 255:6

256:5 261:2

272:1 283:16

295:4 297:19

299:5 302:8,9

307:18 314:12

315:15

McQuay 3:3 92:14

mean 13:10 15:20

19:16 22:6,11

24:3 30:11

31:15,17 37:17

49:19 50:6 52:20

53:4 54:4 58:11

60:6 67:13,14

68:11,12,13,14,1

5 72:17 75:5,19

84:16

87:13,18,20

88:2,15 92:11

93:22 94:5,8,9

95:20

96:7,8,13,17,18

97:22

98:5,9,13,16

100:4 103:4,20

106:1,21,22

107:1,5,16

108:2,5

110:1,5,14

113:10 114:6

116:16 118:22

120:10 126:3,16

127:20 128:9

129:3 130:5

133:3,21

134:2,6,8,13,15

137:7 142:12,13

144:1 150:3

152:11

153:12,14

157:4,12,16

159:8,13,16

160:22 161:2

166:10 168:2

169:20 170:20

171:2,3,7 172:9

173:17 175:14

176:6 183:15

187:5,12,21

189:15 190:8,17

191:4,7

192:11,21,22

195:2,8,16

204:16 205:7

207:8 209:4

211:19,22 212:8

219:15 222:4

226:20 227:3

229:21 233:6

234:5,19 237:7

238:12 241:22

244:6 262:22

269:13 270:17

271:19 272:7

273:12,14,15

278:4,20 280:3,7

281:13 283:10

284:12 289:16

309:7 313:4,8

314:15

meaning 134:10

means 17:12

114:11 137:3

172:6 180:9

204:13 213:5

228:19 233:7

meant 101:21

276:20

measurable

173:14

measure 250:1

254:16 255:18

measured 83:22

246:20 247:2

248:18,21

249:1,15

250:3,10,19

251:3,19

252:1,8,21

253:8,10,11,15

255:10,16,20,22

256:4,9,17 258:9

264:18

measurements

212:17

measuring 95:3

254:18

meat 294:14

mechanical 104:15

medium 178:8

241:4 271:4

275:4

meet 48:16 55:8

56:21 79:6,7,9

109:18,20 127:4

130:12,16

138:19 140:18
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192:1 214:4

218:16,20

283:21

meeting 1:7 4:6

6:8 7:4,5 8:1

18:15 35:18

66:9,22 78:8

125:5,6 136:9

168:22 169:4

175:19

179:16,22

190:10,15

191:19 192:16

193:11

194:10,12,15

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268:4

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party 224:1,3
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70:11 71:21

72:22 74:12

78:14 80:5

85:1,10 89:13

92:6 140:2

144:20 146:15

150:6 152:3,14

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S

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13:8,15 14:6

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39:4 51:14,17

52:11 53:11

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290:11 291:7

292:6 293:9,17

294:10 295:7

303:11,14,17

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SARDINA

322:3,14

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310:16

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screen 66:7 169:10

screwed 23:9

se 187:13 198:11

sea 75:21 76:5

seal 147:8,12,22
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set-up 283:12

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194:6

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sheet 108:7

297:18,19

301:21

sheets 116:19

shelf 147:3 151:1

266:14
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she'll 177:7

shelves 266:14

She's 243:8

shine 88:20

ship 92:15 112:20

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84:18 97:1

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somebody's

305:14
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somehow 36:14

99:21 117:4

143:16

someone 32:6 74:8

107:9 110:15

119:15 187:3,19

209:10,11

someone's 50:16

something's

103:3,5

somewhat 135:8

137:5 296:10,11

somewhere

92:8,21

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224:14

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16:2 40:1 45:8

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249:18,19 252:3

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sort 29:11 66:13

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sorts 100:3

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207:2

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279:20

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112:20 158:9

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178:10,20

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193:13

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218:12 234:20

272:10 273:16

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87:21 99:10

172:7 215:16

248:12 281:13

282:18 297:12

speaking 74:21

160:4

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130:18 156:12

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250:7

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130:13

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spreadsheet

199:19

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296:4

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295:10

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233:20

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45:17,18 47:6

48:17,19

49:1,6,13,16,22

50:6,15 51:4,5,6

52:14,15 53:6,16
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282:12

286:18,22

287:1,4 289:5

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162:20

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180:9

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55:8 56:20 57:17

58:17 72:20

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144:2 152:1

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183:18,19 214:5

215:15 239:9

244:15 249:8

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282:17 290:16

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247:1,8 248:19

250:12,13

251:18 253:1,2,4

255:8 259:17

264:20 265:10

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265:11,13

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42:5,9 49:11

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96:12,21 97:10

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107:18 108:17

110:20

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status 198:21

202:3 203:15

204:7

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stay 161:19

steal 48:7
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241:5 243:17

244:8

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271:14 272:12

step 260:11

stick 242:16,22

sticker's 113:2

sticking 86:16

sticky 167:11

stink 282:3

stole 11:11

stones 100:3

stop 189:16 291:14

stopper 254:10

storage 83:2

246:12,18,20,22

247:1,2,9 248:18

249:3,5,13,21

250:2,14

251:3,14,17,19

252:6,21

256:2,17

257:20,21

258:9,13 259:21

260:14 261:20

264:19,20,22

275:10

store 30:17

straight 242:1

straightforward

16:20 242:4

strain 46:10

119:15

straps 40:21

straw 25:20

stringency 155:19

strips 27:15

struggling 111:22

stuck 268:11

stuff 19:12 24:4

40:8 88:9 108:6

115:4 118:7

138:5 140:9

153:20 155:8,11

184:16 199:1

204:7 208:7

227:11 271:11

272:1 300:13

303:11

subgroup 193:4

subject 7:2 57:17

75:15,16 78:3,10

79:16 93:13

94:20 98:22 99:3

127:2 146:9

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204:8,10 205:20

215:2

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108:1 315:20

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207:21 213:5

225:20,21 226:3

227:7

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233:1 235:3,9

236:3 237:9,12

238:3,9

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301:20 302:16

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suggested 177:1

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suggestions 47:12

102:11 109:3

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summarize 277:22

summary

208:16,20

212:14

213:12,15,17

summer 4:3 6:19

super 271:20

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270:5 297:18,19

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263:16 264:3

supply 173:11

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293:3 304:16

308:14

310:3,5,11 313:3

314:22 315:10

SW 1:11

swapping 132:10

swath 200:22

switch 23:2,6
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172:17 174:20

175:3

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39:15 174:12

switches 293:4

switching 174:19

system 28:15

40:3,20 46:11

52:13 55:18 59:7

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138:7,10 140:17

146:21 167:3

207:19 208:6

262:19 288:17

289:10 291:21

292:15 293:7

304:14 311:5

314:7,8 315:16

systems 55:3,5

59:1,2 82:10,13

85:12 89:5

117:6,18 136:15

181:19 186:3

187:18,20

298:16

304:10,20

305:10 306:14

T

T.V 29:5

table 10:19 31:16

82:8 110:9

169:22 185:17

238:22 258:15

tables 132:3

taking 16:22

123:19 256:1

talk 4:7 26:22

71:17 82:7

128:11 136:11

152:5 157:10,11

168:20 169:8

173:7 175:13

183:6 199:15

213:19 260:3

265:4 280:13

314:13

talked 14:20 18:13

101:10 165:22

168:9 177:15

189:14 198:6

201:11 286:17

299:3 315:22

talking 8:4 10:8

24:9 30:12 43:5

69:21 70:16

74:13 75:22

81:22 94:7

101:13 102:8

104:7,13 107:4

111:2 119:19

120:21 131:15

133:22 140:11

142:11 149:11

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162:11 164:3

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171:13 180:16

182:19 190:2

192:15 207:20

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217:3 218:5

219:1 222:8

236:16 237:4

250:21

252:13,20

256:16 270:4,15

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281:16 300:5

303:3,4 314:17

talks 183:18

tankless 257:9

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261:20

264:20,22 266:2

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267:15

tasked 193:4

tasking 194:9,16

taught 291:12

tax 154:3 246:14

TDA 266:11,12

TDEC 266:11

team 102:17 194:9

tech 159:18

technical 188:4

216:1 273:5

274:2 283:17

technically 156:1

193:10 194:12

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teens 292:1

temp 275:3,4

temperature 36:20

37:5 40:2 254:20

266:10 267:9

269:8

274:3,4,16,19

275:20

276:1,5,6,11,15,

16 281:17

284:20,21

288:22 289:9,20

291:15 294:7,22

temperatures

188:6 272:7

276:21 277:1

283:18,19,20,22

284:16 293:8

294:19

template 263:18

298:19 300:5

ten 18:14 66:4

128:16 130:19

132:12 138:6

220:2 247:6

249:7 252:17,18

259:7 260:13

tend 26:11

245:9,18

tends 115:10,12,15

tens 157:13

term 32:1 40:11

82:1 87:9,19

88:6 89:3 139:13

142:5 144:4

164:12 169:14

181:3 184:5

268:12

terminal 293:12

terms 61:22 62:10

84:17 100:21

106:1 108:6

155:16 182:6

183:19 184:5

189:11 244:15

test 5:11 13:1

17:21 19:4,6

21:8,9,16 25:18

31:13,14 32:13

33:22 34:20 35:3

36:13 37:1,9,19

41:7 42:6,8

44:13 45:4,7,17

46:5 50:12,16

51:7 54:13,17

55:7,11,16

56:2,11,16,21,22

57:12 58:17

59:4,7 60:8,19

61:6,20,21

62:7,19 67:1

68:14 69:5,8

70:6 73:11
Capital Reporting Company

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74:2,12 75:12

77:15 79:13,16

80:2,13 83:20

84:6 86:6,14

87:8,14,17

88:12,21 89:8

90:4 91:15 96:7

97:14 99:22

110:2,12,18,21

112:8 113:11

115:18

116:3,16,22

119:11,20

120:6,11,12

121:1,16

122:7,8,13

123:5,11,12

124:14,15

127:2,11

129:7,8,20

131:4,5,10,14,16

,19 132:9,13

133:5 134:6

135:5,6,8,21

136:6,15 138:15

139:14,19

140:21

141:1,2,4,10,11,

14 142:17

143:3,10,19

144:3,17

145:15,20,21

146:6,7

148:4,11,13,15

149:7,12 151:11

152:4,10 155:19

161:4

162:9,11,12,16

163:14 164:14

165:4

167:17,18,21

169:16 170:21

171:3 174:20

175:14 181:1,6

183:20 184:1

185:9

186:9,11,14

188:17 190:18

199:2,6

202:6,12,13,15

204:7

206:1,18,20

207:16

208:11,13,18,19

213:18 218:8,21

219:4 221:7

222:1,12

224:10,13,16,18

225:7 226:5,7

227:5,12

231:4,6,8 232:18

237:11,14 238:4

239:1,5,6,20

242:19 243:4,13

253:12 255:13

259:17 264:11

265:1

270:6,13,19

271:7,8 272:21

274:7 275:7,8,21

276:15

280:2,4,11,15,18

281:12,14

282:7,12,22

283:4,6,14

284:18,19,20

285:2,7 288:5,10

297:16 298:7

303:7,8,19

305:16,17,20

309:5,6,19

311:14 314:19

tested 48:17 49:17

54:15 55:7

56:1,4,6,8,11,17

57:8 62:22 75:13

77:22 89:10 94:1

95:19 96:15,17

97:2,5 110:18

123:15 129:7,14

140:20,22

162:17 168:1

183:17 184:3

186:18 188:17

205:21 206:3

207:7 216:20

218:22 224:5

226:16 262:9

263:19 264:13

275:9,10,14

311:6 312:17

313:22 314:1

testing 7:10 19:9

31:9 34:22 35:1

39:14 40:16 41:1

44:22 45:3 48:22

51:21 55:15,17

72:20 73:8,11

78:4,10 79:13,22

80:4,8 82:14,17

83:4 84:2,6,14

89:3 98:22 99:3

102:1,2 104:2

112:3 114:11

122:10 127:7

145:19 146:8

148:1 149:14

151:14 155:17

156:6 159:22

161:17

165:13,14 166:2

183:21 201:5

202:14 205:20

206:14,16,18

208:1 211:3,4

213:10 217:1

219:3 221:3

222:15

223:11,22 224:8

225:13

226:18,22

227:16 230:4

234:3

237:1,15,20

238:13,18

242:18 243:3

253:16 254:17

255:17 258:12

260:22 261:4,10

262:1,7 264:2,5

266:3 274:7

275:2,3,4 281:5

282:3,17 283:12

309:1 314:20

tests 20:6 35:3

36:13,15

38:5,8,16 39:13

40:5 46:8 54:14

59:5,14 60:4,13

61:1 62:1 79:16

110:1 126:19

172:2,5 218:6

229:22 280:3

TFR 261:12

thank 4:17,20

5:9,13 7:2 11:8

32:4 37:13 58:22

65:18 68:20

73:19 79:9 80:15

81:7,13 102:2,4

153:6 168:18

174:7 176:4

177:7 185:7

189:7 197:6

200:13 215:22

227:17 228:11

248:8 252:11

258:4 294:8

295:8 304:1

306:22

thanks 4:9 6:21

11:22 14:8 17:1

118:20 174:16

220:1 259:18

295:7 296:16

313:12

Tharp 3:13

67:7,12,16,19

70:11,18 71:21
Capital Reporting Company

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72:22 76:13,15

77:8 78:14,21

79:3,5,9 80:5,15

85:1 89:13,19

90:3,6,11,15

92:6 140:2

144:19,20

145:2,8,11,17

146:15 150:6,21

151:6,15

152:3,14

164:11,12

189:21 199:14

207:13,22 208:4

212:11

214:2,17,19

227:9,17 230:6

233:5,9,12,16

289:11 294:5

306:17,21

314:11 315:6

Tharpe 140:2

that'd 189:5

that'll 129:20

181:14

that's 13:13 15:3

18:10 19:12,18

20:1,3

21:11,13,14,18,2

1 23:19 24:13

25:5 26:10,15,20

29:7 30:15 31:8

32:3 33:3 36:19

37:12 41:8

42:11,18 43:5

44:10 45:11

46:12

49:6,7,18,20

50:6,17 51:22

52:15,17

53:17,20

55:10,13,18

57:3,10,19 60:15

61:16,17 63:21

64:5,9 65:14,17

66:7 69:13

70:4,12 71:19

75:3 76:6 77:19

78:4 79:1 80:21

85:2,3,7 86:9

89:11 91:5

94:3,4,9 95:17

96:8,18 98:16,20

99:9 101:3,13,14

102:3,16 103:20

104:15 105:15

107:9,17,19

108:16 109:7

110:3

111:3,15,16,17,2

1,22

112:10,13,16

115:5,18

117:12,17

118:20 120:2

121:3 124:15

125:19 126:21

127:4,9 128:8,19

129:9,18

130:3,13,17,19

131:4,8,17,18,19

132:6,15

133:20,21,22

134:1,8,9 135:8

136:2,19,20,21

137:7,12,21

138:15

139:13,21

144:11,19

145:4,18 146:11

148:7 150:9,15

152:5,8,9 153:11

158:18 159:10

161:3,12,15

162:18 167:4,7

168:2 170:5

171:7,11,13

174:14 175:7

180:2,4 181:3,20

183:15 184:4,5,8

187:18

188:20,22

193:4,12

195:2,8,9 197:17

198:22 205:13

215:16 219:3

221:20 222:19

232:5 233:12

240:18 241:8

251:9 252:9

261:2,18 263:4

267:15 268:7

269:6 270:7

272:1 276:13

277:10

282:1,20,21

284:13 285:9

286:7 289:7

296:3,16,22

297:5 301:8

302:21 303:11

309:15 310:7,10

311:18 313:13

314:13

themselves 57:21

262:8 282:22

theory 15:20

171:22

thereafter 318:6

therefore 19:9

33:1 110:19

there's 11:16,17

17:19 18:2 25:10

33:15 51:2 52:8

58:7,9 61:8 62:3

65:16 69:2,3

72:17 82:19

92:1,4 98:5,9

104:9 109:13

110:7 116:12,13

120:3,6,11,20

123:14 125:7

126:8,11

131:6,16 133:11

134:15 135:15

136:8 139:14

141:7 142:22

143:6 146:17

148:11 159:3

163:4 164:4

166:7,9

171:8,10,12

177:22 178:9

179:9 180:7

185:3,16

187:14,18 188:9

191:13 194:13

205:22 254:19

280:5 282:5

286:1 297:14

299:6,8 303:4,15

305:7 306:11

307:9,20

thermal

10:11,12,16 61:5

220:19,20 221:9

225:7 234:2

235:4 238:17

241:5,12

246:12,22

247:8,11

248:2,3,4 263:4

270:16 271:10

thermocouple

271:18

thermostat

276:2,4,8,19

they'd 79:7 289:22

they'll 56:4 69:4

they're

19:19,20,22

20:14 23:19,21

27:20 28:2 38:5

45:6,14 53:20

54:16 56:5,9

58:14 60:5,16,20
Capital Reporting Company

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64:10,14,18

65:1,3,4 67:21

68:15

75:4,5,12,15

76:5,8 85:14

91:7 92:12,20

98:5,11 101:18

105:12

117:21,22 118:1

130:5 135:19

153:8,10

158:5,13 171:17

173:22 174:14

178:1,2,3 185:5

186:8 236:6

283:14 293:22

304:21

they've 27:18

107:13 131:7

193:22

thick 48:8

thicker 50:1

thickness 47:3,4

72:8 74:12

thin 48:5,21 72:6

third 116:10,14

148:22 224:1,3

228:2,3,4,6,9,13

231:1,6 235:8

245:5 257:8

279:13

third-party 116:18

thoughts 86:18

168:19

thousands

157:13,15 189:1

threshold 31:6

throughout

185:11 276:11

throw 57:9 114:21

130:20 140:3

258:21

throw-away

217:4,14,15

219:1

throwing 115:4,6

thrown 175:7

217:9

Thursday 5:15

tie 27:1

tied 183:16 255:4

308:10

tighty 266:7

Tim 11:14

timeframe 196:2

Timothy 2:10

title 306:8

toast 4:14

today 5:3 7:13

11:11 46:6 78:9

101:18 119:21

141:2 155:15

162:6 163:20

185:10 209:19

234:18,22 235:3

tolerance 141:9

168:12 219:15

254:20

tolerances 101:17

Tom 3:3 68:16

92:13 148:2

153:18

tomorrow

179:16,20 185:2

189:19 259:22

260:1,2,5 289:12

316:17

ton 163:12

tonight 189:4

302:6 317:3

tonnage 107:20

140:8,9 157:2

tonnages

107:11,15

156:19

tons 114:8,10

tools 106:16

117:22

top 20:17

23:3,4,8,9 29:5

42:11 48:8 180:2

191:1

222:14,16,18

223:1 242:1

259:10

topic 60:22

tossed 217:18

total 27:22

28:10,17 267:6

totally 114:4

136:21 148:3

158:17 162:12

touch 169:1,13

tough 26:2,15

toward 100:5

towards 6:8,18

87:17 271:13

town 4:3

track 305:15

tracking 142:21

305:7

trade 212:8

Trane 2:20 11:4,9

91:15 100:13

110:16 114:3

116:5 147:10

153:1 156:11

193:17 198:11

206:21 217:22

292:7 300:11

transcript 193:8

308:13 318:7

319:5,7 320:6,8

321:5,7 322:5,7

323:5,7

transcription

319:1,8 320:2,9

321:1,8 322:1,8

323:1,8

Transcriptionist

319:14 320:15

321:14 322:14

323:14

transfer 51:19

transformer

171:10,12

172:10,14

173:12 174:12

transformers

172:21

transparent

266:18,20

268:6,11

trapped 46:9

traps 165:10,14

Traulsen 2:14

65:6 182:18

192:5 270:9

treat 170:17

treated 18:18

54:14 71:20

190:20

treatment

17:20,21 54:22

tremendously

263:7

tried 124:17
Capital Reporting Company

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triggered 60:18

triple 28:3

trivial 143:4

troops 128:14

trouble 38:11

173:4 251:21

268:5

true 2:19 19:11,19

45:2 98:19,20

130:3 136:20

200:6 205:13

263:3 318:7

319:7 320:8

321:7 322:8

323:7

truly 48:15 186:20

trust 17:2

try 20:16 34:15

136:12 164:5

175:19 189:18

190:15 217:16

291:11 313:16

trying 23:12 29:7

46:4 50:18 63:5

64:11 96:1,18

97:8 98:16

107:1,8 108:12

110:13 113:7,15

118:9 129:19

136:18

137:1,13,16

138:13,17,19,21

147:20 150:4

155:21 161:22

172:12 174:15

196:1 219:16

230:13

231:18,19,20,21

273:3 283:3

310:11,17

tube 145:4

tubes 72:9 256:7,8

Tucker 3:21 91:8

177:10,13

178:21 182:11

184:14,17

185:12 201:20

241:8 246:5

257:6 259:9

260:10 267:20

268:1 301:5,8

302:4 303:1

304:2 306:19,22

307:4 312:2,22

313:15

Tuesday 6:3

turn 5:5,18 46:22

74:16 89:21

174:12

turnaround 52:6

turned 29:6

32:14,15 39:13

tweak 100:20

twelve 314:7

two-thousandths

72:7

type 18:16 26:13

38:13 41:15

46:21 47:7,18

48:14,20 50:2

51:9 53:17 61:6

71:15,18 83:12

88:16 107:15

121:9,17 122:10

126:2 145:4

146:1,12

147:14,16,17

165:7 170:15

177:7 181:12

182:16 198:17

201:16,21

207:16 220:18

228:18 234:1

235:15,19

236:9,15 237:2

240:12 241:3,6

246:1,7,11

250:14

266:10,14

285:19 296:9

297:9 301:15,17

typed 319:5 320:6

321:5 322:5

323:5

types 9:9 83:13

135:17 190:3

201:1 220:8,15

229:13 246:17

265:6 267:5

278:13 297:8

typewriting 318:6

typical 35:10

71:22 123:22

137:15 140:14

158:15

typically 36:17

67:17,21 71:1

72:2,7 79:3

145:3,12 151:1

161:13 198:16

201:15 205:4

212:13 217:7,14

264:5 281:13

typing 177:20

U

U.S 2:5,6,7,15

199:4

Uh-huh 76:21

108:18 116:8

125:10 315:3

UL 31:3 111:1

218:3 223:21

236:21 270:21

ultimately 213:6

Um-hmm 22:22

30:10 36:4 43:20

44:12 56:15

63:11

Um-hum 162:13

uncoated 50:8

uncovered 187:1

underlying 142:4

underneath 91:17

125:22 313:20

undersized 55:4

understand 20:18

30:4 34:5 39:21

41:1 47:3 49:1

50:9,20 51:3,5

55:2 59:1 68:13

74:22 77:13 93:9

98:17 108:15

110:6,13 116:15

137:14,19

138:17,21

139:7,10,12

156:5 160:3

162:4 167:2

168:10 172:12

175:12 183:9

195:18 197:15

211:20 224:5

237:8 257:13

258:7 262:16

276:10 292:8,17

315:4

understanding

142:7 210:7

211:13 212:22

216:6 262:20

understands 14:1

understood 64:9

102:5 104:11

Underwriters 3:4

uneasy 166:20
Capital Reporting Company

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unfair 288:15

unfairly 290:1

unfired

260:14,18,21

261:20

264:19,22 266:1

unfortunately

37:8,9 57:15

268:9

unique 283:7

unit 10:6,8 23:7,9

24:20 29:3,20

40:22 42:19

44:3,4 46:6,9

56:17 61:11

73:10,11 76:3

79:15,21

80:19,20 82:14

84:7,9,20 89:8

91:11,18 93:2,3

94:8 95:12,13

97:19 98:10,11

105:16 109:8

110:2,3,11,14,17

116:3,16,21

119:12,13,14

121:3,5

122:16,22

125:13 129:9

130:1,6,11,19

134:20 139:17

140:14 146:16

147:15 148:4

150:17 152:11

156:21

158:14,17

160:13,20

161:13

162:15,21

163:2,18

165:14,19 166:9

170:22 171:6,20

172:2 173:8

174:21 186:15

187:18

188:5,9,11,16

205:21 218:6

224:16 227:1

230:14 231:2,5

244:4,5

255:19,20 256:5

263:7 267:10

271:2,3 277:6,13

281:4 288:22

289:19 290:2

291:21 293:4

297:9 298:7,11

301:18 311:10

312:6 313:21

314:6

unitary 136:15

153:19 190:13

United 2:13 125:1

291:12

units 17:13 45:15

50:12 54:15 55:5

79:14 84:15

92:15 93:13 94:1

95:21 97:20

98:18 109:15

112:6 114:16

121:1,18,22

122:16,17,20

123:3,6,17 126:6

130:5 138:3,18

143:16

146:5,9,22 153:4

156:19 159:2,4

160:12,17

161:22 165:4,13

173:7 186:1

187:17 202:14

217:8 221:12

242:15 259:7

263:19 264:12

291:14 293:14

303:20 304:21

305:13 306:11

311:6 314:1,8

unit's 28:10

109:11 183:22

292:2

unless 16:17 29:10

112:22 119:10

150:17 289:21

unmated 301:4

unmute 305:7

unregulated 60:21

unrepresentative

56:2 183:21

update 5:14

upgrade 29:2

uphill 124:10

upon 33:8 143:2

163:10 179:4

183:3 207:15

upper 115:10,12

276:3

upstream 290:22

upward 295:8

usage 217:6

244:11

useful 231:22

253:9 255:2

270:8

user 152:11,18

usual 287:10

295:14 300:8

302:17 316:19

usually 85:2 97:21

117:19 146:22

181:22 224:15

249:7,9

utilities 288:6

utility 71:17 76:8

100:10 107:18

134:21 168:4

289:17 290:14

utilized 38:11,15

123:17,18

utilizing 55:4

UV 39:10,12,15

166:6,7,10

V

V8 113:2

vague 272:16

valid 86:22 232:6

validation 203:6

value 88:20,21

122:9 235:1

250:8 253:2

261:7 262:3,9

263:12

values 64:13

306:18

variability

101:14,16,22

102:1,2

variable 38:20

39:3

93:2,5,12,22

94:3 95:11,13,16

97:20

98:10,17,18

99:1,8,17 271:5

304:8 306:5,8

variables 269:7

variations 67:5

275:6,7

varies 172:16

varieties 248:17

variety 125:17

various 116:12

182:8
Capital Reporting Company

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vary 61:9,10 143:2

varying 75:7 116:4

vast 137:17 278:13

VAV 93:4

94:16,19

VEACH 323:3,14

velocity 143:18

vendor 261:7

262:4

Ventilation

82:9,12,15,17

verges 142:9

verification 75:16

78:3 79:21 161:3

162:22 211:3,6

227:20 228:3,15

253:15

verify 17:2 46:12

versa 252:2

verse 103:20

version 5:1 8:12

104:3 106:2,3

141:8,13,17

143:10

versus 13:16,19,20

14:4 21:18 23:18

25:7 26:4,17

47:5 49:7 74:4

84:20 85:8

92:1,2,5 96:19

99:8 107:9,11,18

108:16,22

147:6,21 152:4

157:8 159:4

181:17 198:7

207:19

250:14,19

288:19

vertical 229:7

VFD

89:5,8,9,17,20,2

2 90:7,21

91:13,19 92:2

93:1,4,6,11,20

94:1,16,17,19

95:1,13,17 97:21

98:18 99:4 208:7

VFDs 89:15 90:20

91:12 92:15,16

95:21 96:2,3

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