Note: The output shown below is from the Communication Access

Realtime Translation (CART) system used in the meeting and is unedited, except the correction of s ome participant names. The CART system was used to provide an accommodation to persons with hearing loss and persons who are deaf, and was streamed in real

- time and available to the public on the internet during the meeting.

Rail Vehicles Access Advisory Committee ( RVAAC ) meeting U.S. Access Board Thursday, April 10, 2014
>> CHRISTOPHER HART: Good morning, everyone. Thank you for coming to Washington in the height of cherry blossom season. I hope that tonight you get to wal k around and see it before sunset and enjoy the cherry blossoms. T he Access Board appreciates your attending and involvement in the RVAAC committee. We have access for public members and we continue to have new faces in the room. A s you know, it's been the effort some would say is long over do but we are making major headway. A nd for those of you who have participated over 8 subcommittees, teleconferences over the last two months, you know it is quite a good deal of work and discussion. S o, with that, I want to have everyone introduce themselves and then we will we are going to turn it over to Billy and have a couple of presentations thismorning. A nd then go into subcommittee meetings for

the rest of the two days. S o, thank you all for coming. Pleas e start off. >> I am Stanton, with Ricon Corporation and here with many, many years’ experience in accessibility systems thank you. >> Josh Coran with Talgo, the Spanish high

- speed train builder >> Tom Peacock, I am representing Stan Hunter at Cal Trans >> Janice Schacter Lintz. >> Robert Carlson, transportation association.
>> Ed Hoff, New Jersey Transit >> Blair Slaughter, Amtrak.
>> Marilyn Golden, Disability Rights Education & Defense Fund.
>> Andre Gagne, Bombardier Transportation. >> Terry Soesbe e, RailPlan International. >> Jon Holbrook. >> Linda Martin, Federal Railroad Administration >> David Hughson, Maryland Transit Authority. >> Francis Mascarenhas, Metra in Chicago. I have been working with Metra for 18

- plus years as a mechanical engineer now I am the senior mechanical engineer. I haveworked on several coach car rehabilitation programs as

well as project engineer for the electric cars. I am here because Justin left our employment. I was the alternate for the last two meetings. N ow I gu ess I am stepping up. Thank you. >> Welcome.
>> I am Andrew Phillips with the National Association of the Deaf. >> Lis a Hamlin, Hearing Loss Association of America.
>> Ed Steinfeld with the IDeA Center at University of Buffalo. >> Jim Weisman, United Spinal Association. >> Crystal Lyons representing the South West Transit Association. >> Clifton Perez representing National Council on Independent Living.
>> Larry Scott representing the National Association of Railroad Passengers. >> Uwe Rutenberg, International Centre for Accessible Transportation >> Frank Maldari, representing MTA New York. >> Dennis Cannon, National Disability Rights Network. >> Terry Pacheco, American Council of the Blind. >> Harold Weisinger, Federal Railroad A dministration.>> Good morning, Billy Altom, programs of

independent living. >> Paul Beatty, Access Board staff. I f we could start first with the folks

-- >> Melissa Anderson. >> Jim Pecht, Access Board staff. >> MARSHA MAZZ: Marsha Mazz, Access Board s taff. >> Lisa Fairhall Access Board staff.
>> PAUL BEATTY: If somebody would bring the mic around to those in the audience. >> Ken Shiotani, National Disability Rights Network. >> Gurmit (inaudible) transportation systems. >> Bob Reuter, Access Systems Ba ltimore Transit Association and ADAPT. >> Keith Wartzman, guest. >> Mike Martino , Association of American Railroads.
>> Pierre, City of Alexandria transit.
>> Lou Walner, Virginia Railway Express. >> Calvin Gibson, FRA. >> Melissa Sharlin, FRA. >> Sid Go ldstein, editor of Transit Access Report. >> MARSHA MAZZ: Okay.
>> PAUL BEATTY: Okay. N ow, this is Paul Beatty we will go to those on the conference line I unmuted all lines,so if you could introduce yourselves and what organization

you might represent? just go ahead charge in.
>> Mike Wether ell with MTA.
>> Glenn Willis, Washington, DC Metro. >> Kimberly Jackson, University of Kansas.
>> Frank Parson , Brinckerhoff >> Dick Cogswell, FRA.
>> PAUL BEATTY: Okay. T hose on the line I will turn everything over to Billy. >> Paul, before we unmute it's Mike Wether ell, if I could say a couple of words I am going to be on the call but this is my last meeting my duties changed I am no longer with N ew York City Transit, I am with MTA headquarters, Frank Maldari is going to be the MTA representative as Gricelda Cespedes from New York City is going to be the alternate I wanted to thank you for the opportunity to participate. And hope to see you around in the industry.
>> PAUL BEATTY: Thank you Mike. A nd just to let those on the conference call I am leaving your line unmuted for some reason you are trying to communicate to us to say something you can also use the RVAAC E

- mail site RVAAC @ access

- board .gov if you can't get through the noise we are not paying attention et cetera. I will turn it over to Billy.>> BILLY ALTOM: All right. M an, it's great to see

everybody out here. W hat a beautiful morning. I came out from across the road and had a jacke t and coat thinking it was wintertime and said awesome. You are going to be hard pressed to keep me inside today it's nice out there. We want to do general housekeeping if you have a cell phone, put it in vibrate mode or silent mute whatever you want to do to it so it doesn't go off while we are meeting. A lso, if you are with us today using the CART system the chat box is not available for the participants who are using CART if you would please E

- mail any questions that you have to RVAAC @
access
- board.g ov. A nd we will get to those as quickly as
we can. A nd, also, you may have noticed we do not have your name tents today which is going to be tough for me I tried to write everything down that's hard to remember my
own name. We are working on it please i f you have a question or whenever you speak, identify yourself for all of us so that we can keep track and keep our program on track. A lso, then what I want to get into is get this baby rolling, in January we had our meeting we mailed out the minutes from that January meeting on February 12th. N o comments were received back from

-- to the staff. S o, what I would like to know is if I could get a motion toaccept the minutes from our January meeting?

>> So moved? D ennis Cannon, second was Stanton, thank you. A ll those in favor say aye. O pposed? N o? Abstentions? H earing none, first order of business is good we have completed our approval of the minutes so thank you very much. W hat I would like to start off with too to give you a brief report on where we are going to go to with our subcommittees and what we have done. T hen we have several presentations that we are going to do today I am looking forward to a loft these presentations. Then we will do our public comment at the end of the day and break i nto subcommittee meetings what I am going to do first is give you a brief report on where we are add. Access Board send E

- mail out on the 27th that recommended to bring greater focus to our committee work that we dissolve the committees that we had and fo rm new ones. S o, we dissolved the two existing ones the recommendation

-- I can't read my stuff. I t was accepted by the committee. W ith this committee approval four new subcommittees were created. T hese are first the boarding alighting committee. T he onboard circulation and seating. Rooms and spaces and lastly communications. At the moment, we have Terry Pacheco who had been the chair of the dissolved signagesubcommittee transitioned into the chair of the

communications subcommittee so thank you very much. At the first meeting of the onboard circulation and seating subcommittee, during conference call on the 20th Blair Slaughter was elected to chair that committee. S o thank you Blair for that. I appreciate that. D id you remember when I volunteere d you to chair that. (LAUGHTER) >> I don't remember that. >> BILLY ALTOM: Also, as you notice, in the agenda tomorrow afternoon the boarding and alighting subcommittee will meet one of the first order of business is to elect chair for that committee. Currently we have Ed Hoff Crystal Lyons Michael Wether ell and Stanton who served to chair that committee. I f you are there and you would like to put your name in the hat we can still have people put their name in since according to our bylaws or rules the committee alternates may also serve as subcommittee chairs. We'll elect a chair for that tomorrow or this afternoon, whatever I just said. T he room and spaces subcommittee is not scheduled to meet the Access Board is not prepared to administratively sup port them during the two

- day meeting today for that subcommittee, currently we have Uwe and Dennisvolunteered to be chairs. S o, we had a pause there for

just a moment with background noise from our phone participants. So, as you can tell we have a big jo b that was put ahead of us we thought we were going to accomplish this is the matter of 12 months which is not going to happen. S o, we are looking at extending this at least getting in a few more minutes or few more meetings. W hat we need to do is that p ull out our calendars if we have those and let's knock some meeting dates out. The Access Board request they select two meeting dates between October and June. O ctober of 2014 and June of 2015. T hese would be like these meetings two

- day meetings. >> Do we have a meeting schedule for October? >> Do we have a meeting scheduled. >> We don't have one yet those are the target dates any time between October and June we want two more meetings. >> We had a next meeting scheduled. >> September. >> We want to put d istance between the September meeting and the next meeting I suggest. A nd not make it October but I don't know.>> BILLY ALTOM: I

-- we just threw the date out there

because it was an available time the committee can choose to meet January, February, what ever the

-- whatever people's calendars allow us to do. N ormally this would be run by the good friend Rose she is not with us today so I will be playing

-- sharing the role of Rose with Paul. I am kind of with what you just said, October doesn't look goo d for me my annual conference is October it's just a month later from September. Paul, do you have any input that you would like to give us on this?
>> PAUL BEATTY: No, I gave Billy a calendar when the room is available October through June. A nd so, it' s a matter of what selecting two dates convenient for a maximum number of committee members. U nless

-- this is Paul Beatty speaking unless you guys want to bust your butt between now and September and have everything wrapped up in September we are all for that.
>> First two weeks of November? >> BILLY ALTOM: Let me give you a quick one here December 1, 2 and 3. D ecember 8, 9 and 10. A nd December 15, 16, 17 or 18 are available here in the Access Board room. I n January the week of the 5th is available. T he 15 and 16 is available. T he 20 through 23rd is available and 26 through 30th is available.>> Billy?

>> BILLY ALTOM: Yes? >> This is Kim Jackson with University of Kansas. T he Transportation Research Board meeting for next year is January 11 through t he 15th. S o, if you guys had the meeting the 15th and 16th there might be maybe some university participants that could come to the meeting as well to coincide with the TRB annual meeting. >> BILLY ALTOM: Thank you. Terry asked when is Martin Luther King day that's the 19th. D id I hear any recommendations of those first couple of months that I have thrown out there anything sound good? A ppealing? >> November sounds good to me. >> BILLY ALTOM: Back up to my November calendar November was 17 and 18. >> UWE RUTENBERG: (Nods head up and down.) >> BILLY ALTOM: That's a Monday

- Tuesday. >> Thanksgiving is the 27th. Yes? C rystal? >> CRYSTAL LYONS: Billy, this will be these types of meetings, all of the whole board or are they broken down into subcommittee s? W hat

-- what is the

-- are they just subcommittee meetings
>> PAUL BEATTY: This is Paul Beatty. To some degree we can't predict the agenda until we have our Septembermeeting. We want those days available.

>> CRYSTAL LYONS: Can I throw something out Billy?
>> PAUL BEATTY: Essentially we don't have anything available for the month of November. >> BILLY ALTOM: Sorry about that. >> CRYSTAL LYONS: Do we have to meet here?
>> PAUL BEATTY: I guess probably in order to provide all of the accommodations ne cessary. A nd >> (inaudible)
>> PAUL BEATTY: We are not budgeted

-- so no you are meeting here. >> CRYSTAL LYONS: I will still throw out my idea anyway just in case. T he APTA expo, you know quite often I don't know this year, I haven't been able to find out yet if there will be rail cars on the floor quite often there is quite a rail presence at the APTA expo Houston in October. Like October 12 through 15. I just wanted to throw it out that I was told APTA could probably find space. I f there is no budg et there is no budget I wanted to throw it out anyway. I t might be an opportunity.
>> We like it here. >> Could we narrow it down to either the first week in December or the first week in January? I s there a problem with either one of those for anyone?> > BILLY ALTOM: Okay.

>> Terry Pacheco: I think it's the 4th or 5th it gives us 3 months between meetings >> January work better for me if

-- if anyone else has a problem. >> CHRISTOPHER HART: Isn't the TRB in January, so for those of you who eat sleep and breathe transportation, you may not necessarily want to be here twice in January if you are there for ANSI and other meetings that occurred. >> CRYSTAL LYONS: We piggyback on last year this year. >> CHRISTOPHER HART: Yes. J ust keep that in mind. >> BILLY ALTOM: Right now again we are looking at Terry mentioned the first week in December which would be those are not available for the room it's the 1, 2 and 3 we would have to change routine of Thursday

- Friday.
>> That sounds good.
>> January 8 and 9 is our usual Thursday

- Friday style meeting what does it sound like to folks. >> I have a comment. I think that earlier December is better for me just because I have a lot of conflicts otherwise. >> BILLY ALTOM: Early December? >> at beginning of January I have c onflict it's closer tothe holidays.

>> BILLY ALTOM: I understand there is a group this big we are going to have somebody going to be a little twisted. S o we try to find the one that works for the biggest group. E d? >> I would like to just do this off line if we could just have people suggest or have the

-- have you guys suggest good dates and then maybe we could do a doodle poll to pick the ones best for everybody? B ecause we could go around the table everybody is g oing to have their own

-- >> PAUL BEATTY: I don't know whether the doodle poll is accessible we may be restricted on using it >> However you want to do it is fine with me. >> Just not this way. (LAUGHTER) >> MARSHA MAZZ: Paul, that is something I had Bruce check I understand it is accessible.
>> PAUL BEATTY: All right. S o, this is Paul Beatty I hear the consensus of the committee is worry about it after the committee meeting all right we will send something out. B ut I am hesitant to ask Billy had an other thing that he was going to have me do, that is, which I will do it now right? O kay. B etween this meeting and September we wanted you to hold a number of conferencecalls. We had some concern if we left it to the

subcommittees to set up the confere nce calls since the first subcommittee meeting is communications, they would take all of the good dates and the last subcommittee meeting which isn't scheduled for the two days rooms and spaces would have very little to choose from. S econd we know there a re some committee members that have been participating in the two current subcommittees, and we appreciate their participation. And one or both pointed out to us being able to participate in a conference call more than once in a week is extremely difficul t for them. S o, because of that, we were going to propose to the full committee during this time we look at the dates between now and the September meeting. A nd schedule conference calls for the four subcommittees meeting only one conference call per wee k and hopefully each subcommittee would only be meeting once a month. A nd get through the schedule. We do that because not everybody must participate in a subcommittee. T he subcommittees cannot make decisions for the full committee. S o, whatever the
su bcommittee decides has to be brought before the full subcommittee that ties in with Crystal's question about what the two full committee meetings are for. Weanticipated per the schedule that the subcommittees

would complete their work sometime in October of this year. You know, there is fine

- tuning

. T hose reports would be presented to the full committee and discussed by the full committee probably at last two meetings and finalized their report to the board. S o, now, if we can have you look at the sche dules, and we don't know of any simple way to do this online. S o, if possible, the committee agrees can we set up conference calls for the subcommittees between now and

-- >> MELISSA ANDERSON: I was going to do this private tee with Paul but I was thinkin g since we are already meeting this week if we start communications and then circulation and then boarding alighting I don't know when Jim wants to pick a day of the week every Thursday or Wednesday and just alternate down the row and people will be able t o make it people won't. B ut

-- you can be consistent that way pal pallet the proposal a day always the same time alternating as we go through the months. Everybody in agreement with that? A ll right >> I want to say if we could avoid Mondays would be gre at.
>> PAUL BEATTY: Use the microphone, please.
>> Avoid Mondays would be awesome any other daywould be fine.

>> PAUL BEATTY: We need at least two weeks to arrange the CART, et cetera. We are really starting first of May second of May okay? W hich is a Thursday

- Friday. Thursdays have been working good. S o, why don't we aim for maybe the 1st and the question is: D o we start off with communications on May the 1st and I will ask the chair of the communications subcommittee Terry, whether May the 1st is go for you because

-- >> Terry Pacheco: O f course I am yielding to my committee my suggestion is that we just go with the first

-- >> I am not hearing, I'm sorry. >> Sorry about that. >> Terry Pacheco: M y suggestion of course is we go with the first Thur sday of each month. B ut that's I would like to see some affirmation or if that's a somebody with my committee first.
>> PAUL BEATTY: Terry proposed the communication subcommittee meet the first Thursday of every month the time slot would be the same 1 to 3 p.m. east coast time. Everybody, I see no objections to that okay so that's simple. M ake sure we don't run into any

-- >> 1 to 3 eastern.(Discussion off record.)

>> What time is that going

-- phone call going to be for the communications meeting for the first of the month Terry, I'm sorry, will the call be for the communications meeting be on the first of the month not the first
>> PAUL BEATTY: It's the same time 1 to 3 p.m. east coast time all right? S o, all right so now following that, for thos e the next committee that's been meeting is boarding onboard circulation. B lair since you are the chair do you want to make a proposal as regards to your committee subcommittee meeting? >> Blair Slaughter: P ersonally, I think the Thursdays work quite wel l. A nd if we could do just to follow Terry we want to do the second Thursday of every month just to keep that up
>> PAUL BEATTY: This is Paul speaking believe it or not there is juggling in space there are a number of staff members participating there ar e certain things that we need to be able to run the meeting and not every space that we have available is available you know whenever I want it. S o, at this point it looks like the first Thursday of every month is open. B etween now and September but the second Thursday has

-->> Blair Slaughter: Paul, Ed made a good suggestion

where there is a conflict switch it to answer, does that work? S econd Wednesday I'm sorry. S o second Wednesday or Thursday depending on availability from your side? I f we need t o go back earlier in the week make it Tuesday

- Thursday .
>> That works shift it to Wednesday the primary date would be Thursday 1 to 3 p.m. east coast time. B ut if there is a conflict looks like we could shift it to Wednesday we will send you out an E

- mai l letting you know. B ut at this point assume it's the second Thursday of every month. Again same time slot 1 to 3 p.m. east coast time, Ed? >> Ed Steinfeld are we going to keep the skied dual for the rest of the time of the committee are assembled.
>> PAUL BEATTY: This is just to set up conference calls between now and September if the committee decides to continue for future conference calls that's up to them.
>> Okay.
>> PAUL BEATTY: Bu t that's probably a good idea, let me make notes so I don't forget. >> I was just concerned it's not a good idea for me, I teach on Thursday afternoons all afternoon so starting inthe end of August I won't be available at all.

>> PAUL BEATTY: Okay. Well , let's

-- between now and September now and the end of August you are good? >> Yes.
>> PAUL BEATTY: Okay. T hank you. >> CHRISTOPHER HART: Can I just politely remind you that we are hoping you guys are going to make great headway so you guys are not cont inuing all through the fall. T hat's our hope. (LAUGHTER)
>> PAUL BEATTY: Okay. M oving on, I guess the next group that is going to meet is boarding and alighting. And since we don't currently have a chair, may I suggest building upon what Blair will go with the third Thursday of every month? B ut if there is a conflict with the room space, we will move to Wednesday. A nd there does appear to be a number of conflicts. S o then could we move to Tuesday? >> CHRISTOPHER HART: Not for me.
>> PAUL BEATTY: Okay. T hat will be

-- then for rooms and spaces. We will just follow the same procedure. I think for purposes as we move forward these could be tweaked. B ut for purposes of moving forward marlin>> Marilyn Golden: N ow you are on the first Tuesday

in May?
>> PAUL BEATTY: No, third Thursday in May will be boarding and alighting subcommittee conference calls. If

-- >> MELISSA ANDERSON: Paul, the third Thursday in May is the out of town board meeting. S o, and the it's Wednesday Thursday Friday.
>> PAU L BEATTY: Did I say May? I mean third Thursday in the month there is an M word month. T hird Thursday in the month. We are talking now Melissa points that we have the out of town meeting for our board so, that creates a conflict. A nd they are pretty muc h that whole week. T hank you Melissa. So, they

-- >> MARSHA MAZZ: (inaudible).
>> PAUL BEATTY: Okay. B ut I know at least one person said Mondays is really bad for them. B lair were you plan to go participate in boarding and alighting subcommittee. I
>> Blair Slaughter: I think I put my name in spaces communication and circulation. I may have put it in alighting as well. I would call in. A nd my only reason for saying that Monday mornings on the railroad can be alittle crazy we are talking in the aft ernoon if it needs to be

on Monday it's Monday.
>> PAUL BEATTY: All right. At this point boarding alighting is the third Thursday in the month. I f we have a probably scheduling our space we move to Wednesday. I f we have a problem scheduling for Wednesd ay we move to Tuesday. A nd now, worst case scenario we know for the purposes of May it will be Monday. We will send you out an E

- mail, we can tweak things. B ut we need to get something rolling so I can reserve spaces and they don't get occupied by other people. F or purposes of the last subcommittee rooms and spaces, I assume we will meet the fourth Thursday of the month. A nd we will go through that progression if there is conflicts for us scheduling spaces to run the meeting in Thursday of Thursday, We dnesday, Tuesday, and Monday. S o, there is nothing scheduled for a Friday you can scratch it off at this point in time.
>> Marilyn Golden: F or some of us time matters taking time zones into account
>> PAUL BEATTY: 1 to 3 p.m. that hasn't changed.
>> Okay, sorry. S o, you have done

-- sorry go ahead.
>> PAUL BEATTY: Okay. S o, in summary, the first Thursday of every month is communications. A nd ofcourse all of these if Thursday doesn't work we work

Wednesday Tuesday and Monday. T he second Thursday of every month is on board circulation and seating subcommittee. T he third Thursday of every month is boarding and alighting subcommittee meeting. A nd the fourth Thursday of every month is rooms and spaces. A ll committee subcommittee conference calls will be between 1 and 3 p.m. east coast time. I think we have

-- is there anything I have over looked? O kay so, that's the rough plan right now. M arilyn? >> Marilyn Golden: S orry. T he second is

-- >> PAUL BEATTY: Onboard circulation. >> Marilyn Golden: O kay.
>> PAUL BEATTY: I will try to send out something today E

- mail wise, all right, so you can nail down your things and lock down the room reservations today or this afternoon. O kay. I think that takes care of the conference calls, thank you. B illy?
> > BILLY ALTOM: Thank you do we want to do the up dates from these? >> BILLY ALTOM: I would like to introduce and welcome a couple of our new folks they have introduced ourselves we have changes in representatives for the meeting we welcome Francis who intr oduced himself earlier thank youvery much. We replaced Justin as the committee from

Metra. A nd Larry Scott who replaced Ross Capone as the committee representative for the National Association of Railroad Passengers. F or Amtrak Gary Talbot is the new
a lternate representative and June Kailes, proud to see her name, is the new alternate for DREDF, so very cool. Perfect, awesome. T hat puts us now into our educational portion do you have something Chris? >> CHRISTOPHER HART: Larry, I don't know you might want to say a few words so folks know your background for folks that don't know you. >> LARRY SCOTT: Okay. A s many of you may have known Ross Capone, he served as president and CEO for 39 years I am an active president 6 months why we do a nation

- wide sea rch to replace Ross recognizing we will never get someone with that amount of knowledge. B ut I am pleased to be here today. I wanted to make sure that AARP had continuity in this committee. >> BILLY ALTOM: Thank you. A ny other announcements anybody need s all look good? Awesome I am looking forward to today we have several presentations for us. I want to get right into it we are going to have our first presentation is from the Federal Railroad Administration doing a Rail 101. A nd we have HaroldWisenge r with us. Take it away.

>> Good morning, I am mechanical engineer with the mechanical division of FRA one of my former railroad lives I was the mechanical department liaison to Amtrak consumer advisory board in the mid 1990's. O ne of my projects using a grant from Department of Education we installed wheelchair lifts on two coaches for testing and evaluation. I would like to give a rudimentary description of the type of passenger cars that are out there in service right now. A nd then talk about the ext ernal influences which result in the interior volume available in the car for outfitting with the interior. First up is commuter cars. T hey are configured for greater capacity than ininter

- city or long distance trains. Commuting times are hopefully less than an hour or two hours. H ence the capacity is higher you are not expecting as much comfort. T he designs are to accelerate and decelerate quicker to accommodate more stops along the route. Doors are configured for quicker loading and unloading of passe ngers. T his is a single level commuter car with high and low level boarding. T his type of car arrangement is used in the northeast corridor due to the tighter clearances as opposed to a bi

- level car there arebi

- levels car on the northeast corridor also or multiple

level cars. T he entrances can be from one or multiple doors from a higher or low level platform. T he cars are generally 12 feet 6 inches in height can seat up to 117 passengers we call two times three seating two seats on one side three seats on the other side of the aisle. T hat's the general type of configuration for this type of car. this is a single level commuter car with high level boarding only. T his type is used on commuter lines that use high level platforms. C ommuter agencies when they employ this type of car have to have a system safety plan to address evacuation of the trains and nonplatform territory. I believe the Acela uses a ladder when they have to take people off the train in spots where there aren't any
-- >> There is a st epladder.
>> There is a rescue stair as well. >> Okay. >> Blair Slaughter: A nd train to train bridge as well.
>> Right, right, in any case all railroads have to have or agencies have to have a system safety plan to address as part of an evacuation of the trains. The seating for this type of car is typically 2 times 32 on one side 3 on the other. T his is a multilevel commutercar with high level boarding. Again, it has to have an

evacuation procedure available for the system safety plan. These cars are n ormally operate in the northeast corridor also they are configured the agencies have start today go to these because platform length is not available for the increased capacity. T he single

- level cars for the same amount of people need a longer platform le ngth and the stations don't have that availability anymore. S o the cars allow greater capacity with less train length and also the economy of operation with less equipment. T his is a bi

- level commuter car with low level boarding. T his type of car has be en in service since the late 1950's is referred to as a gallery car due to its specific configuration. T he entrance can be from one or multiple doors per side on the low level platform. T here is no high level boarding with this type of car. The height ca n be up to 16 feet 2 inches the seating capacity is up to 182 passengers generally they have 2X2 seating on the bottom and then in the upper gallery part of the car they are actually aisles that look like they are suspended from the seating there is one se at per side of the car. This type of car is used generally in the Chicago hub
area. I think there may be cars like this in the west, I amnot positive.

I meant gallery cars specifically in the west. Another multilevel commuter car this is a northeast
corr idor car this has boarding from high and low level platforms in the major cities usually you will have a high level platform and out in the suburbs low level platforms. This car gives the option. N oted also it has four doors per car which allows for fast er loading and unloading. Also, the on board crew can pick which doors they open based on the flow of passengers in and out. T his car is typically 2X2 seating on all levels. T his car you board on the high level platform you board in the middle you have the choice of going up or down. T he Marc service has cars like these. Here we have inter

- city and long distance trains. T he trains can operate from a few hours between cities to two or three days between different regions of the country. The cars are co nfigured for seating comfort, food service, baggage cars, and sleeping accommodations. S eating in the revenue cars is typically 2X2. T he pitch between the seats is lengthened to give the passengers more comfort because they may be on for two or three day s. T he term "revenue car" relate to the cars that actually generate money on the train the coaches the sleepingaccommodations are revenue areas. T he dining car is

considered revenue during dining there is a lounge car which there is no fee to enter it i t's it's a nonrevenue car. >> May I ask a question. I don't have familiarity with anything to do with trains. W hat is the difference between a long distance train and the commuter train like what makes why can't you use the same train for everything I un derstand it's the

-- what about it physically makes you it long distance train versus the other trainings like and I don't understand light rail and these other trains. >> Light rail is a different animal the vehicles are lighter, smaller. You could consi der them streetcars or troll lease. T hey are built to different structural standards. T hey could be

-- think of them as buses on rails. A nd that's a very generic simplified explanation of a light rail vehicle.
>> That's what I need.
>> These are conside red heavy rail vehicles. >> Commuter or inter

- city FRA heavy rail is Metro. That's commonly misused term.
>> Still misused. The commuter vehicles the commuter cars are built to accommodate more people and for master flow in and outof the commuters. T he long distance and inter

- city

equipment is generally more comfortable the seats are different they are different material. D ifferent pitch for less passengers per car. Agood example of inter

- city train is Amtrak's Acela. Washington, New York, New York t o Boston. M aximum trip you see on that would be 8 hours. H opefully. (LAUGHTER) >> Hopefully six. T he long distance trains the seat pitch is greater than you find on the Acela because people may be on there for days. O f course on there you find slee ping cars baggage cars for luggage, dining cars as a restaurant. T here is a lounge car typically with a cafe in it. >> Thank you. >> Terry Pacheco: Quick question, wouldn't something like the northeast regional be in the same category as the Acela as far as your purposes are concerned? >> Yes, yes. I nter

- city commuter trains usually make every stop inter

- city trains major stops. Long distance stops they make

-- Amtrak longest train takes three days I don't think there is a train that runs coast to coast anymore. You take Washington Chicago change Chicago to sootal tell for L. A. that takes three days. T hose areconfigured for the greatest comfort.

They even have showers on them. >> LINDA MARTIN: But the shelf a commuter car and inter

- city car are essen tially the same? >> Yes, they all have to meet the same structural standards at this point. >> What we are talking about is comfort level not structural level difference? >> These are all what is called tier 1 compliant cars. They all meet the same struct ural standards >> Even light rail? >> No.
>> Heavy rail is all tier 1 it's all about the comfort and amenities but light rail is different >> Light rail is different. A nd I have to admit I do not know enough about light rail I am sure there are people that do. >> CHRISTOPHER HART: Heavy rail is typically thought of as subways, okay? W hat you have in New York or here in DC. A nd then you got

-- you really really heavy equipment which is commuter inter city. I f you think about a typical subway car, that's kind of the way, Blair help me out 50% less than a typical commuter rail or Amtrak coach. A nd a light rail car is going to weigh 50%less than a subway car.

>> This is Melissa Anderson Access Board I wanted to remind for the benefit of the people on the p hone we need to introduce ourselves before we speak. T he definitions for each one of these terms are in the beginning of the current vehicle standards. >> I understand that it's easier with pictures and you know like reading something and understanding it for someone who is a a layperson other than taking the train I have to comprehend so I can understand how to implement the access what is possible and not possible >> MELISSA ANDERSON: The definitions some of them are based on operations like the commute r rail operates at peak like the VRE and the Marc so the definitions are pretty useful in helping because they are more descriptive and kind of operational terms. >> MELISSA ANDERSON: For future reference they are there.
>> Yes, okay. >> MELISSA ANDERSON: That's fine I have read through them several times to get them all straight too. >> LINDA MARTIN: This is Linda Martin the other difference too Harold light rail doesn't operate on the same as commuter or inter

- city given the

-->> Harold: Typically they don't because it's different

structural standards. T hey may with temporal separation. I know there is arrangements for some systems where they won't run regular trains while the light rail is running. >> CHRISTOPHER HART: Which is different than the res t of the world. I n the rest of the world it's a lot more mixing of equipment on the rail lines. We won't go into that discussion as to why FRA, FTA won't allow that. I s there a question from the audience >> I'm sorry, Bob Reuter, I have 80,000 photogra phs of rail vehicles if you give me your E

- mail address I can send you photographs of every different kind you could possibly imagine. (LAUGHTER) >> You only want about 70,000. (LAUGHTER) >> That's all I have scanned right now. (LAUGHTER) >> CH RISTOPHER HART: You know, Bob, I think we kind of

-- >> Blair Slaughter from Amtrak. Anote about capacity issues, capacity issues Harold you probably weren't going to touch on this it's not just for the vehicle or a certain length of train you get into c apacity issues for the railroad.Because of the way you can only put so many trains on a

given length of railroad at a certain time. S o, that that is another reason for trying to increase capacity within a train because another train is another

-- anothe r operating blip on the screen that has a lot of rules and regulations that go with it.
>> This is Harold Weisinger. F or example CSX only allows 15 cars on the capitol limited. 1 5 single

- level cars with the same capacity would be, would not carry nearly as much as 50 super liners with the same capacity they are the bi

- level cars you can see in some of the these pictures.
>> Uwe Rutenberg. I sn't there a difference between heavy and light rail in terms of what passengers do. Heavy rail they have to b e seated where as in light rail streetcars and lighter rail people have can also stand. >> Harold: T hat is probably true. I can't say for certain because that's not my

-- >> JOSH CORAN: I have spent plenty of time standing on inter

- city trains it's just a principle not requirement >> David Hughson from Marc, we have standees on our commuter trains. >> CHRISTOPHER HART: This is Chris Hart put it this way, any time it snows in the northeast corridor or any time there is thunderstorm in the northeast corner thereare plenty of standees going up and down the corridor.

>> Harold: H ere I have a picture of some Amtrak fleets and view liners. T he Amfleets are the view cars the view liners are sleeping cars. S oon there will be new baggage cars and diners coming online. I have to say they look very nice. T hese single

- level cars operate overnight trains that enter station with low clearances like Boston, New York, Penn Station, Philadelphia, Washington. Amtrak operates the Amfleet II coaches with cafes and sleep ing cars they have older cars from the 1950 cars cars used as baggage and dining cars. T he same cars on the left the view liner the cylindrical shell Amtrak operates the inter

- city trains with the style cars with a different seating configuration for inte r
- city service. H ere we have the like I was just describing, the inter

- city car high and low level boarding. A nd these cars are typically in a corridor service such as northeast corridor or hub service out of Chicago, chick to Detroit or to Milwaukee or St. Louis. They have a higher passe tee than the overnight service equipment. B ut not as high capacity as computer car. >> Blair Slaughter: I t's important to point out on this slide the right

- hand side is what Amtrak refers to as horizon car which was p urchased in order to increase our coach car count on the back end of a Jersey transit Ithink

-- the big difference is there is different trucks

which are the wheels and suspension and different seating so that they are comparable to our other longer dista nce trainings versus a commuter style. >> Harold: W hat Amtrak called the horizon cars have different terms at different commuter agencies they have the same style or type of car configured for commuter service Amtrak configured them for inter

- city servic e. The car on the right is the style of car I put two wheelchair lifts on two cars. A nd the reason the original

-- I will divert here the original task for the project was to install wheelchair lifts on the Amfleet car on the left the vestibules were so tight as we know you can't make the turn into the car body from the vestibule. A nd in researching the cost of moving the bulk head wall for where the interior door is it would have cost half as much to redo the car as to buy a new car. T hat's how integrated the structure is. S o we went looking for other cars on Amtrak and found the horizon cars which have enormous vestibules. I have to sate wheelchair left test did not do well on the car because the car itself does not have a body and door so the wheelc hair lift was exposed to every type of dirt and debris and bad weather it could see and that's really what we wanted to test. A nd, unfortunately, thedesign that we picked could not endure all of that. I put it

on the Chicago will walk key service it wou ld get a beating and it did. >> CHRISTOPHER HART: What is interesting, just on the horizon car is that several transit agencies, including the MBTA in Boston bought several hundred of these cars post

- 91 and so the vestibules never actually met in 91 requirements even though they are brought and built after 91. I t's interesting conundrum because these cars still have 15 to 20 years of life in them if not more. >> Harold: T his is the Amtrak inter

- city bi

- level superliner these have low level boarding like t he gallery commuter cars and the San Francisco

-- the California
cars. >> CHRISTOPHER HART: And, Harold, correct me if I am wrong, 17 inch top of rail? >> Harold: I s that right? >> CHRISTOPHER HART: I want to be clear thinking about what the low level boa rding height is. S o, when we talk about 17 inch top rail platforms that's the equipment that it's designed for. >> Harold: T hese operate outside of the northeast corridor where there is greater clearances and Amtrak operates superliner coaches, dining ca rs and sleepers. Avariation of the car is the transition sleeping car shown on

the left. A s you can see, it has a low level passage that allows passage into low level cars. T he superliner is related to an older design for the Santa Fe Railroad. A nd th e design was to the equipment room at end of the car prevented the lower level passageway. S o the passageway were raised to the upper level. This is an example of inter

- city train Amtrak's Acela. It's a single level train with high level boarding. I t ha s an active tilt system that leans the trains in the curves to maintain comfort at higher speed in the north east corridor. T his is Talgo inter

- city train single level train with low level boarding. T he train set is articulated where each car is semi

- per manently attached and shares a truck. That's the wheel assembly. I t has a passive pendulum tilt system as opposed to the Acela which has active or mechanical tilt system. Talgo train sets are operated by Amtrak in the Pacific Northwest cascades corridor between Eugene, Oregon and Vancouver British Columbia. T his is the part where I talk about influences on the design of the car body. I don't think I could have found a better picture. (LAUGHTER) >> Harold: H ere we have what looks like Europeansubway or transit car. I s it the London? R ight the roof is

cylindrical and the tunnel is almost perfectly cylindrical with just a few inches of clearance. The loading gauge or clearance defines the maximum height and width for railway vehicles and their load s to ensure safe passage through bridges, tunnels and other structures. S o, if you have a railroad that's only so wide or so high, you are not going to build a vehicle that exceeds that

-- those dimensions. T his is an illustration of three different cros s
- sections that run on the same tracks but have different external dimensions. T he shape of a car can be influenced by how fast the train will go through a curve and how far it will lean at speed. So, while it may not be a physical limitation, you have to

-- you have to see the volume that it occupies while traveling. This is a cross

- section or end view of the Amtrak view liner. T he shape of this cross

- section allows for more width at shoulder height. T he shape also allows the car to lean in the curves, and the area it would occupy in the curve is called a dynamic envelope. W ithout intruding to the space occupied by an adjacent train. C onsider that while the train sits still it occupies you know X and Y at one time and while it's traveling it may not fi t into thatbox, and it has a moving clearance box.

It's another picture of the view liner. T he design takes advantage of the clearance available above a high level platform without it exceeding the constraints of the dynamic envelope. S o, you can see wh ere the floor is on the vestibule is where the high level platform would be. The older vehicles built the wall straight up, this vehicle comes out at we will say the shoulder line it gives you more interior width. Using a cross

- section

-- end view of the Acela car, it has the same type of shape. I t allows the train to tilt in the curves for quicker schedules. Here is an interior view of Amtrak ’ s view liner baggage
car. A nd you can kind of make out that same shape on the inside. T hat is without the shelves there that is the interior volume that is the result of all of the external influences on the car body design. I f you imagine taking those baggage shelves out. U ltimately the interior shape is determined by the car structure which must meet crashworth iness standards as well as APTA standards and the other influences that we just talked about. High platforms in the northeast are standardized as far as Amtrak is concerned at 48 inches from top of rail 5 foot 7 from the center line of the track. S ome com muteragencies may have different ones. T hese dimensions are

influenced by freight traffic. Amtrak operates where freight trains operate. T here are freight trains on the northeast corridor there are commuter agencies that don't see freight trains so the clearances may be tighter. F reight cars are typically 10 feet 8 inches wide at

-- with the floor height 3 feet 4 ins from top of rail. N ot all passenger trains stop at all stations commuter versus inter

- city

. stations may be different. F RA is trying to standardize platforms outside the northeast at 15

- inches from top of rail with 5 foot 5 inch center line. >> CHRISTOPHER HART: Is that where you are at 17? >> Harold: L inda, you want to address that? >> LINDA MARTIN: No, it actually is 15, the idea of a 1 7

- inch car with the wheel wear are the other factors. >> CHRISTOPHER HART: I just wanted to be clear, okay? That's where we are at. >> Harold: T here are multiple passenger car door thresholds in the U.S. today that would be the different types of eq uipment low level platforms have different floors. Excuse me. P eriodic track surfacing alignment changes and car door thresholds as the track wears or shifts due toground conditions, the clearances can change. T he

vehicle height can change due to wheel and suspension where this causes variations in the loading height. This is the graphic of different platform heights around the country and in Europe. The interior design envelope of the passenger rail car with many possible con fissions is a result of cle arances speed of operation, vehicle

-- why would you use a single or bi

- level car or what the railroad will allow the train. >> THOMAS CORFMAN: Service to pull, type of service, type of space needed, do you need a baggage car a sleeper or a commuter coach do you need an inter

- city coach. S chedule time for unloading or loading. Generally, the Amtrak inter

- city trains, they have doors at each end of the car. T he Amtrak long distance trains have doors at one end of each car because they don't have as many p assengers in each car. C ommuter cars have more doors to increase the flow. S tructural requirements influence the design of the car. Accessibility standards. Industry standards and federal safety standards. A nd I appreciate your time. A ny questions? There is a lot of people with vast amounts of rail car experience. S o I welcome anybody to participate in answering questions. >> Harold, I was wondering if you could mentioncrashworthiness issues inside cars. T hey have external

questions but there are also requirements for internal tables and the like.
>> Harold: I would if I knew a lot about it. >> LINDA MARTIN: Okay. Well, there are

-- >> I am a structural engineer I deal with the external or the structure of the car. I know there is requirements. Blair? > > Blair Slaughter: T his is Blair Slaughter from Amtrak. The

-- and I will lean on Josh and some of our car builders as well in case I say something wrong. B ut typically an inter

- city train a tier 1 type car i s anything that you attach to the inside that becomes part of the train has to meet the AG longitudinal 4G lateral 4G vertical requirements. You weigh anything you put in whether microwave or seat and that's the forces it has to withstand in its normal op erating situations when you go to tier 2, it is 6, 6 and 12, right? >> Yes.
>> Blair Slaughter: 6 , 6 and 12. T ier 2 to add complexity is Acela high

- speed trains fall into that they meet a whole other level of requirements because of the speeds they opera te at. O bviously if something occurs, everything is coming at you at those higher speeds.>> CHRISTOPHER HART: Just so you know these

requirements are not aligned with what the rest of the international crashworthiness requirements are. W hen you look at European and aging force requirements particularly there is a slightly different approach to the G rating.
>> Blair Slaughter: T he ideal situation is you never let trains get into the position where it becomes an issue. But what you typically find when you look at international accidents, is when the force loading in the United States for example we require 800,000 pound buff loading if you push two cars together the cars don't become one at that kind of load. A nd internationally typically it's about hal f of that. O ddly enough those original numbers came from the U.S. Postal Service. B ut when they found out that the mail car was surviving on the passenger trains in the United States and the passenger cars were telescoping which in very graphic terms mea ns you take 80 foot car you compress everyone in it to a 10 foot space which never works out well. T he mail and mail clerks were surviving on the on the trains so the railroads adopted that as a go by standard. I t's become, I assume, I think it is rule n ow is it rule >> Yes.>> Blair Slaughter: I t was industry standard for a lot of

years.
>> This is Tom Peacock. T here is other less obvious crashworthiness features too the back of the seats have to be designed to bend but not break when the person sittin g in the seat in front strikes it. E dges are supposed to be rounded. S eats are compartmentalized which means the person shouldn't fly out of the seat he should stay in the seated area. T here is quite a few things like that that are less obvious than the big crashworthiness features. >> This is Dennis Cannon, I want today clarify something that I asked at one of the subcommittee meetings. W hen I was working with the (inaudible) here on writing subtitle B of Title II, we had a bunch of people some from FRA and some from various committees Amtrak and so forth. O ne of the issues had to do with the clearance on the end door. At that time we were told that you could not get more than 30 inches of clear space because of the position of the

-- of collision pos ts. W hen I raised this issue at one of the subcommittee conference calls, somebody said that that was not true today with current designs we can get 32; is that correct? >> Blair Slaughter: B lair Slaughter from Amtrak. Yes, Dennis, going back that's in the late '80s and early '90swhen all of that was going on. I think the big driver then

was looking at a lot of the existing equipment because if you tried to move those collision posts in an existing car it
was
-- it was disastrous. B ut no, I

-- we have worked to manage the configuration of those things so that they still stay sort of in a almost the same place, but manage the passageway through it. S o, it can be worked out. >> Dennis Cannon: I wanted to clarify we are no longer limited strictly to the 30

- inch max. >> Not on new builds the newest cars we are building 32 clear between the collision bust >> JOSH CORAN: This is Josh. Let me add something to that. A ll of this discussion is static. A nd you will have your 32 inches when the train is standi ng still on straight track when you enter a curve you get a Gil low teeing effect where you get lateral displacement and you lose a lot of that, that pardon the commercial message it doesn't happen on Talgo trains because we are articulated at that point.
>> We have two more questions Ken and Ed and Ken if we go get a microphone for you there. >> Just a couple of sort of clarifying points if I am not mistaken. T he just so that everybody knows, the Talgo cars have a different

-- don't have a 15

- inch floor h eight;is that correct? A nd Bombardier bi

- level commuter cars

also have a unique floor height, is that correct? D o people around the room

-- >> JOSH CORAN: This is Josh I can answer that. U ntil January 1st I could say that the Talgo equipment in U.S. ha d 24

- inch high floor. T he new stuff we are running there now has about a 30

- inch floor it's a European platform standards right height. T he Bombardier bi

- level which by the way has three levels it's a registered trademark bi

- level has a 24

- inch high floo r but the outside step the threshold of the door is at about 17 inmuchs so it's two step up for standard 8 inch platform. >> CHRISTOPHER HART: And if you are confused join the world.
>> Ken: T his is something in the folks in boarding and alighting needs t o know when there is commuter cars Amtrak cars of different kinds there is going to be different boarding heights it's additional confusion for thing that needs to be taken into consideration. O ne question to the FRA person, I'm sorry, I didn't get your
n ame. H as there ever been any research done on possibly doing a center door on existing Amfleet cars or horizon cars as improved accessible entrance? We saw pictures of some commuter cars that use them and, again, three setsof doors in inter

- city train m ay not be the most practical in

terms of lost revenue but it does seem like with, again, a bunch of people in the room were at an Amtrak boarding platform demonstration and design thing yesterday, and it was pretty enlightening to see that virtually everyo ne in a wheeled mobility device except people with extremely short wheel bases had a whole lot of difficulty if not almost impossible time making the turn in the existing Amfleet cars thinking a little outside the box would a center door would a center doo r be something that

-- that has ever been researched might that be something that could make the older cars that are probably we are still going to be writing when my 20

- year
- old kid turns 40, you know, be something that could be in the works? I mean it's a little off topic to our discussion but

-- >> No, no, actually it isn't off topic that's one of the things we explored when we put the trying to put the wheelchair lifts on the Amfleet cars seal up the end doors or keep the end doors and put a door in th e center of the
car. O ne of the issues as you mentioned was loss of revenue service of space. T he other one was weather intrusion into the passenger space. S o, effectively you would have to put

-- you would have to have walls on either side of the cente r entrance which would cut downon refuse knew space but put the walls or

ethnographer

-- weather intrusion so you cut down on interior. You have two passenger come part 789s

-- compartments instead of one the price was prohibitive. W hen you talk about w hen you are getting close to 1/4 to 1/2 the price of the new car you stop right there. You are better to invest the money into new equipment. I don't know

-- I don't know what the predicted life is for the Amfleet cars. A nd they
are
-- those are designs from the 1960's. T he agencies that operate the horizon type cars they have center doors on them. S o they are in existence. >> BILLY ALTOM: You have a question.
>> I have two questions. O ne has to do with might be useful for everybody to hear why rail d oes not require seatbelts like in a plane. A nd why wheelchairs are not secured. >> Harold: L inda, you want to take that? >> LINDA MARTIN: Um, I mean I actually don't know. I mean, I do know generally why, but I know that it's not

-- it's in the rule th at way. B ut I don't know why that decision was made. T his is before my time. >> I am not expert

-- >> I think I know but I want to make sure that I am notsaying things that aren't right.

>> Dennis? >> I can tell you where they came from originally
resea rch basically said that had to do with the G forces, when you

-- as far as the seated passengers are concerned, there is the compartmentalization kind of concept sort of keeping people in between seats. A s far as wheelchair securement was concerned the re search that we looked at when riding

-- writing the rule originally was that as opposed to buses, which can stop quickly, sort of. Trains don't stop quickly. N o matter what they hit for the most part. T he

-- so there wasn't any need it was seen to
secure a wheelchair the same as there is in a bus which can make a quick turn a quick stop or go over a curb. We hope that trains don't hit potholes. T he others are practical issue in a bus you have a driver in the bus. I n a train if you decide that you want to assuming that you can get secured originally if you decide you want to use restroom unless you are traveling with a companion you are sort of out of luck until the conductor comes wandering through. A s a practical matter, securing wheelchairs in espec ially inner

- city train cars doesn't have any practical effect. I t seems kind of silly. I n most cases, there is also isn't such thing as a universal securement,and if you have a train wreck like the one in recently up in

New York, where the trains derail ed, it won't make any difference whether you are secured or not. You are going to be crashed and probably killed in the process. S o, from a practical standpoint, that's why there aren't any requirements for securement of wheelchairs in rail cars. >> One more question. >> I am curious about innovations on the horizon where things are going in the rail industry what are the leading edge developments in the design of rail cars. >> Harold: I think that's a discussion for another time. I will put another 100 slides together for that one. (LAUGHTER) >> I think it would be interesting to see that even if it's not a part of the meeting if there is a document we can circulate that. >> Herald: I f you would like to request that we can pout a presentation toget her. >> CHRISTOPHER HART: Just so you know we were not able to get on every call, some have tried to raise the issue of what the rail overseas sort of

-- so that people are
aware
-- because also Bombardier and Talgo all are big players around the world. A nd the U.S. market doesn't see the same level of innovation because the economy ofscale hasn't driven it yet. S o, but I think if people request

it, it will get more. >> Blair I will let you have the last word and move on.
>> Blair Slaughter: I am expect ing a call to take me out of the room in a second. I just wanted to go back to Ed's question about seatbelts when the Acela was developed there was a lot of discussion about seatbelts on the train. The difficulty was there was no real way of enforcing
se atbelts, like you have on the airplane. T he airplane nobody moves nothing happens until everyone is all buckled up. W ith a train, when you look at crashworthiness issues you could have a condition where someone is using their seatbelt, and someone in the seat behind them is not, so if you have a crash and they are thrown and stopped by the seat in front of them. E xcept someone is tied to the seat. N ow, you put a multiple load on the seat, and now it may break and go into the seat in front of it and so o n and so on. S o, it just

-- it was like the original issues over wheelchair securement. I t was just not seen as something that really had a practical advantage because of the decelerations that you see on passenger trains versus moat tier vehicles and ai rcraft. >> Just real quick I think it was a great presentation, thank you.>> Thank you.

>> Tons of information that will be very important to the boarding alighting subcommittees specifically with regard to structure. A ssuming that the regulations requir ing certain structural elements be there and meet certain force resistances what is up for grabs in the way of the size and structure of the members from the point of view of the boarding threshold and the structural members that are very near that thresho ld for things like lift installations, like integrated bridge plates on the floor of the vehicle that can come out underneath but try to give a smooth transition. I know in some cases when we try to do automated bridge plate we have to go over the thresho ld there is a structural member very near. I s there a way around that since we have materials around with much greater strength given weight and size. S pecifically for the subcommittee, who we are looking at vehicles in the future we are not looking to m odify today's vehicles it was a great presentation telling us what is in place today. But where can we go with the new vehicles in this area? >> Harold: Well for future vehicles anything that you would request would be part of the performance based speci fications. S o, if the builder has to build that, they will find a way to do it. A s far as materials are concernedthere is always a trade

- off between harder and milder

materials. I f it can be thought of, it can be built. A nd as long as there is money t o do it. S o, that's about all I could say. T here is always ways of doing it. A nd I appreciate your time. I appreciate the opportunity to make this presentation Mr. Beatty has my information should anybody wish to contact me. A nd we would be happy to g ive additional presentations, thank you. >> BILLY ALTOM: Thank you appreciate it. (APPLAUSE) >> BILLY ALTOM: All righty. A s typical with this group we like to run a little longer than we normally would we need to take a break so that our CART can keep up with us and rest her fingers for a moment. L et's say how much we will go for 10 minutes. I f we are back here at 10 to 12 we will do the next presentation and break for lunch after that. A nd we will go from there so you got 10 minutes till 12 I expec t you all right back here. (Short recess taken.)

U.S. Access Board RVAAC meeting Thursday, April 10, 2014 (Short recess taken.)>> BILLY ALTOM: If we can all reconvene. G reat to see

everybody here today. Looks like we have a lot of energy in the room. T hat's awesome. We need it in here because if it gets low in here I am going to want to go outside be a lizard and soak up some sun, it's nice out there. A ll righty, we will kick it off here in just one minute. We are back we have another presentation this time coming from one of our participants on the phone we have with us the American public transportation association streetcar subcommittee maximizing accessibility for modern streetcar systems we have Paul on the line with us are you the re? >> I am here. A m I coming through okay? >> BILLY ALTOM: I can hear you take it away the floor is yours.
>> Okay. T hank you very much. I apologize for not being in Washington at the meeting in person. B ut travel budgets are what they are. A nd we wi ll start with slide 1 of the presentation. T he cover slide. W hat the objective of this presentation is, is to provide a background and a primer on some of the situations associated with the national in developing modern streetcar systems. A nd some of th e challenges that project sponsors are having inimplementing systems that maximize accessibility under

the current rules which as everyone knows date back to the early 1990's. Next slide, slide 2. L ittle background on the APTA street car subcommittee. It's within the

-- within the it's a younger committee it's been around I think less than 10 years. A nd really as a result of the fact that the streetcar as a mode is really coming back in cities and the United States. We

-- the subcommittee is comprised largely of APTA members but also other groups since a lot of streetcar systems are being developed by both city governments, transit authorities, and also business improvement districts and others that have an interest in down town finalization. H ello?
>> You are still here Paul, I hear a phone ringing making sure it's still connected. >> Sorry about that. >> Paul: We have a working group on the subcommittee that has been dealing with not necessarily writing standards but looking to provide education at a technical level to folks that are planning or designing streetcar systems. T here are modern streetcar vehicle guidelines available on the APTA website and other places. That is an excellent document for anyone who isinterested in learning more about th e development of

modern streetcar vehicles. But a major issue that has come up with project after project with vehicle manufacturers and others is compliance with ADA I will get into what some of the issues are that are challenging us. Specifically, for ac cessibility some of the parts of subpart D which is the part that we live under we are considered light rail. Again, the regulations did not foresee the current technologies and changes in light rail and streetcar. S o we will get into that. M oving on to slide number 3. A little bit of background. I n the accessibility of streetcar vehicles, up until about 1980, there was little consideration given to accessibility and the design of streetcar vehicles. T hen following that, you know most of the vehicles were what we call high floor vehicles which were either high floor with a high platform where similar to the Los Angeles light rail system and some of the others like Metro and Washington, DC, where patrons can board the vehicles from a high platform into a high floor. O r what most of the vehicles around the country light rail and streetcar were high floor with a low platform similar to older style buses had three to four steps to gain entry tothe floor of the vehicle from a low

- level platform that was

usu ally 6 to 8 inches high. M oving on to slide 4. Then moving into the third era where we are now the introduction of low floor vehicles began in this country. This is a technology that originated in Europe where initially part of the floor of the vehicle i s low floor. S ome of the vehicle started with either just a small section of the vehicle where there are either just one step or no steps to enter the vehicle. A nd then increasing from just a small part of the vehicle to 50% low floor many cases now 70% low floor and even now there are vehicles coming into the U.S. market for which orders are placed that are 100% low floor. You can see on the time line on the slide you know times when this technology emerged in the U.S. market part of the challenge that we are facing is that the subpart D rules were written for the previous high floor vehicles and we will get into why that's causing issues with accessibility today. O n slide 5, some pictures depicting the different types of alignments that we deal with trying to differentiate light rail from streetcar a little bit. At the top is a picture showing a light rail vehicle operating in right

- of

-way that is shared with freight trains, and you know, so you are on open track, but a light rail of course can operate in the street. You see a picture on the right,San Francisco muni system where it's an imbedded track in

the street. A nd streetcars is much more to that end of the extreme of light rail. T he lower two photographs show streetcars operating both in Europ e and I believe the other picture is Portland in mixed traffic almost ascribed in the previous presentation as a bus on rails. So, why we don't want to paint too broad brush light rare has a degree of separation from traffic. A s you can see in the supper right it's given exclusive lanes or its own right

- of

-way. M oving to slide 6. D epictions that are more specific for streetcar. You can see here that even streetcar the alignments vary widely. Very often it's a in mixed traffic because we are operating i n downtowns or in dense urban areas there is no other place to put us. A nd we compete for space on street with other traffic. And so the tracks are designed to be driven on. T hey are just basically another lane. A nd that will also impact the stops which are infrastructure light, I guess is the best way to put it. W here it's a very simple platform, minimal amenities and the understanding is that individuals don't have to wait very long for a vehicle. M oving on to slide 7, some examples of those platform s, we use most vehicles for modern streetcars particularly newer systems the vehicle has doors on both sides. I t's a bidirectionalvehicle equally happy running in either direction. S o, we

use both side and center platforms. S ide platforms, as you can s ee in the large picture on the left are basically just extensions of the sidewalk into the street to meet the rails where the vehicle will be. A nd there is other arrangements the upper right shows an island or center platform where the

-- which is often u sed where the track is in the middle of the street or you have tracks operating in both directions so you can share a single platform. I n the photograph on the lower right is intended to depict creativity is required in the designs. When you are trying to accommodate on

- street parking, traffic regular car traffic, buses, bicycle lanes, sidewalks, this shows a stop in Portland where they actually had to run the bicycle lane around the rear of the streetcar platform so it just shows that we are in a constrai ned environment and creativity is required. The next few slides starting with slide 8 show some charts that vary the different types of streetcar platforms with a specific emphasis on how we provide accessibility. And I won't go through all of these in de tail, but they are here in the presentation just to show how

-- how we handle different stops and different accessibility. M oving on to slide 9.There is some additional types there some diagrams,

some mixing with bus and streetcar. S lide 10 some other types. I do want to emphasize some of these are overseas, and they are not currently in use in the U.S. but do have some design attributes in terms of ADA compliance that could be utilized on future projects. Starting on slide 11, I would like to point ou t that the vehicles themselves also differ to a degree. I n the U.S. to date typically we have been using what are called 20 meter long vehicles which are on the shorter end of the modern streetcar vehicles available on the global market. T here is some pr ojects in the pipeline in even in the Arlington project in suburban Washington and Virginia the San Antonio project and others that may use longer vehicles. A nd this is one of the areas where light rail and streetcar differ. A nd light rail typically the way capacity is added to carry more people, they couple very similar to like an Amtrak train or others or the Washington Metro you couple multiple light rail trains together through multiple unit control. You have one controlling the train from the front there may be four light rail trains coupled together to add capacity. W ith streetcars it's very different the vehicles aren't designed other than for emergency towing to be coupled. T he way capacity isadded is by lengthening the vehicle. T he vehicles c an

handle very tight curves, which are often found in urban
areas. A nd so, there are frequent articulations, as you can see in the lower picture I believe that's 7

- section vehicle that operates in Germany. W ith all of the points where it can bend like an articulated bus it can go around a tight turn and some folks have even described some of these longer vehicles in Europe as urban cater pillars because or worms because they kind of weave there way through the tight turns and urban streets. T he other imp ortant take away that you can see on the diagram on the right is that with the varying lengths and types of vehicles, with floor height issues, with

-- where the location of the articulations the location of the wheels, the door arrangements can vary great ly as well. Moving on to slide 12. We start to get into what are causing some of the issues with accessibility which is when we start to attempt to mix buses and streetcars sharing the same platform. As I mentioned before, some of the new technology with low floor have provided the ability to do what we call fully level boarding which is very similar to the Washington Metro or other heavy rail or high platform light rail systems where we are able to meet the ADA gaprequirements both horizontal and vertica l with a 14

- inch

low floor vehicle and through an active suspension that reacts to the weight of the vehicle, it maintains that vehicle floor height at exactly 14 inches. Even taking into account wheel wear and other issues. We are able to do fully level boarding. T he issue is that with 100% low floor or 70% low floor vehicle that 14 inches is basically as low as you can go. A nd that presents a major challenge for buses which oftentimes the bus whether it's kneeling or not a low floor bus cannot deploy a wheelchair ramp up to a 14 inch high platform. S o, additionally the rear doors of buses I am sure Washington, DC the Metro bus system is similar. S ome of them have designs where the bus doors fold outwards they will co

- lied with a 14 inch high curb whi ch doesn't allow you to use those. At any point in time where a streetcar platform height is above 8 inches we get into challenges integrating with buses. S o, slide 13 shows instances where we have been able to integrate bus and streetcar or light rail i n this case, the best example in the United States is the Seattle transit tunnel through which there is both light rail and bus. T he buses there have had special accommodations to interface with the light rail platform that's at 14 inches you can see a bu s barely able to deploy the wheelchair ramp a low floor buson to the light rail platform. T he buses there have extra

large tires, and the bus operators are instructed not to kneel the bus before deploying the wheelchair ramp which is an unusual feature. Most transit buses have an interlock where the wheelchair ramp will not deploy unless the bus has first been kneeled. I n this case they made design modification among many to their buses to allow them to do that. The right hand picture shows a curve whic h is not in use in the U.S. yet but helps facilitate a bus bumping its tire up against light rail or streetcar platform. T he lower left is a photograph of a Kansas City transit authority bus where a test was done with a simulated 10

- inch platform showing the existing bus fleet could not be compatible with the height. You can see the wheelchair ramp fails to deploy properly. T he lower right hand photograph is Washington, DC Metro bus they were testing the rear doors of the bus with some of the DC treat ca r platforms being built at a 14

- inch height the rear door of the bus is not able to open. M oving to slide 14. There is really two different ways to accommodate accessibility on streetcar systems. T he first is near level boarding, which is really the comp romise approach. Which is when the vehicle floor is at about 14 inches andthe platform is between 8 to 10 inches, we then because

there is that step from the platform into the vehicle, that is not fully level, we require a bridge plate to maintain compli ance with subpart D. N ow, this has advantages in that the vehicle does not require to have active suspension, the construction and design tolerances of the platforms and the tracks are not required to be as precise. We can share with buses oftentimes, it makes it easier to blend the stops into the sidewalks and maintain accessibility to the platform. A nd sometimes you can even place stops on a slight curve rather than having to have it on tangent track with this approach. B ut there are significant disad vantages. T he bridge plate devices themselves are prone to failure although the reliability is high. T hey are a maintenance issue. T hese are not manually operated the bridge plates are automatic and may only be located at one door on the vehicle. A nd t here is a special ADA pushbutton that activates the bridge plate device. T hey have not really been

-- there is issues with them in colder weather as well with the bridge plate devices requiring heaters. A nd they also extend the dwell time in the vehicle when you are already in mixed traffic deploying and retracting of the bridge plate particularly if the door has already been open before the bridge plate isdeployed adds time to the vehicle dwelling at the stop.

Moving on to slide number 15, this is as I described before the fully level boarding. T his requires the vehicle to have an active suspension that regardless of whether there is several hundred people on the vehicle weighing and compressing the suspension or one or two people providing much less l oad on the suspension that either through a hydraulic system or otherwise it keeps that vehicle floor at exactly 14 inches within the ADA vertical and horizontal gap tolerances. B ridge plates are not required. A nd the platforms are soon to be at 14 inche s so just like getting on to or off of the Washington Metro system, it's a fully level scenario. S o, the advantages are that we can load and unload the vehicles quickly. T here is benefits not just to individuals with mobility issues or wheelchairs but al so bicycles luggage, groceries those kind of things fully level boarding provides significant advantages there. B ut the disadvantages are that if we are trying to integrate accessibility between bus and the streetcar vehicles. T hat becomes a challenge be cause buses cannot use the 14

- inch platforms we have challenges creating a 14

- inch platform in a dense urban environment which can create drainage issues with buildings and other related accessibility issues with havingto have ramps to get up on to the pl atform. A nd it's

basically impossible to do on a curve. I f the track has to be tangent. Moving on to slide 16. S tart to look at the current regulations regarding bridge plates. W hen subpart D was written, the term bridge plate really meant going from

- - into a high floor vehicle as I described before. And often times this meant that there would be mini high block or some other lift device to

-- for an individual with disabilities to load into a high floor vehicle. S o there was a bridge plate that was carried on the vehicle or was located on the high block that was deployed by the train operator oftentimes these are located at the very front of the light rail or streetcar vehicle. T hat bridge plate is used at about three feet in the air to

-- for an in dividual to board. A nd there is some photographs depicting both older style light rail streetcar vehicles where such bridge plates are in use. S o, really these were focused on high floor vehicles when the ADA was written I want to emphasize the low floor technology did not exist. G oing to slide 17. B ridge plates on the current vehicles on the low floor vehicles are very, very different. T hey are much smaller, they are transitioning a gap that is usually just a matter of inches rather than the three fee t described in theprevious slide. A nd are really accessing this low floor

vehicle with a full length platform rather than just with some of these early light rail and streetcar stops where there wasn't a platform it was in the street at the very end ther e was this high block that was used for accessibility. Slide 18 this is where we get into some of the issues associated with some conflicts in the existing regulations. We are required to have on the edges of our platforms now even in the low level platforms truncated half domes to signal to individuals who may have a visual impairment that they are reaching the edge of the platform. B ut when you have bridgeplates low floor bridgeplates located at various doors along the side of the light rail vehicle wh ich may stop at different places, those will land on those truncated half domes. A nd there is currently no provision within the ADA for us as you see in the picture on the right, to remove a small number of the truncated half domes to provide a safer and better landing zone for those low floor bridge plates. T hat's the first issue that we have identified. T he other substantial issue which is becoming a safety issue and a barrier to better accessibility with these low floor vehicles is that these bridge p lates the requirement in the current regulations requires a barrier on the side of each side of the bridgeplate which in the context of a high floor vehicle makes

sense because if an individual in the wheelchair were to steer off or somehow accidentally g o off the bridge plate they would have

-- there is a three foot drop in between the high block platform and the high floor rail vehicle. I t's a very dangerous situation. O n a low floor vehicle where you are just bridging an inch or two with a short short ramp putting a side bar yes, sir has now creating
a
-- created a tripping hazards or hazards for people with a visual impairment and really doesn't make sense in the current context. And almost all systems in the U.S. has gone through equivalent process t o remove the side barriers after conducting the appropriate public involvement with their local disability community. And they really

-- these pictures that I show the point of the slide is to show another of these solutions comply with subpart D in terms of accessibility because either the side barrier issue for the truncated half dome issue and both had to go through the equivalent facilitation process. Going to slide 19. T he other thing that is starting the project that I work on here in Cincinnati ord ered vehicles and Kansas City ordered vehicles with 100% low floor there is no steps either on the outside of the vehicle, boardingthe vehicle or anywhere on the interior of the vehicle. S o,

these vehicles may have end doors that are also at a hundred pe rcent low floor section. T here are some interior circulation, and other issues that come about with the hundred percent low floor that are some challenges within the ADA regulations that you can get into in more detail. O n slide 20, we get into another s ituation in the regulations where the new 100% low floor technology designed to maximize accessibility runs into some legacy issues within the existing subpart D where if you look at A under the on the diagram where the platform height has been tapered on the ends, that is compliant fully compliant with the current ADA. B ecause the

-- it's kind of unclear whether the current subpart requires all doors on level entry vehicles to have a 32

- inch route to the wheelchair area which we do not because of the way the seating is configured on the interior of the vehicle. U nder B, where we have fully level platform where an individual in a wheelchair could use any of the doors that we believe might not be compliant in some places

-- in some cases with the ADA becaus e it's

-- it's a level entry vehicle is the question. A nd, again, this gets back to the fact that the low floor vehicles did not exist when the ADA was written. Moving to slide 21, just a reference that FTA is currentlyin the process of writing a chapter in a circular on

equivalent facilitation. A nd just the point here some excerpts that folks can look at at their leisure the equivalent facilitation was really meant as a process by which a project could find some exception to the ADA rules in order to br ing innovation to accessibility. W hat we are discovering now is that all of these projects are applying for the exact same equivalent facilitation over and over and over again. A nd it's no longer innovation it's just that the technology has evolved since the regulation were written. T hen the concluding slide, 22, basically what is kind of the point of all of this? W hat we would like to do is

-- I know a lot of the activities of the rail vehicle access advisory committee has been focused on what I will c all the FRA modes inter

- city rail commuter rail all of the passenger rail accessibility issues, but we would like to request that in the boarding alighting subcommittee that we get the opportunity to discuss and look into some of the subpart D issues speci fic to streetcar. T he APTA street car subcommittee and the technical working group have identified this as an issue are willing to make technical resources available to assist. And that

--we would like recognition that accessibility in these instances is a system. I t really depends on whetheror not in the specific instance we want to create

accessibility between bus and streetcar or whether in the specific city we want to separate the streetcar and bus stops and other issues. A nd perhaps talk about a performance

- based approach within subpart D to maximize accessibility. G iven we know fully level boarding all the time is the optimal approach it may require accessibility compromises elsewhere. O ther systems are building streetcars that may be used with li ght rail and we want to capture innovation after the rules are written and is facilitation really the right way to do that. I would be happy to answer questions first >> Thank you. F irst question, Dennis.
>> The slide maybe third from last where you have the A and B options you talked about A as having a platform that I guess is tapered at the end and then B is a fully level. A nd you said there may be some issues. W hy do you think B is not compliant? >> Paul: I t has to do with interior circulation in t he vehicle. W ith 100% low floor vehicle, the running gear, the traction motors, and the wheels and all of those things are in the side wall of the vehicle. A nd there is kind of the motors rather than being on the axles between the wheel these vehicles oftentimes do not have a solid axle.Because in order to keep the floor low. S o there is a

wheel with a gear box and traction motor in the wall of the vehicle. T hat intrudes into the passenger space. A nd so, these vehicles even though they are 100% low floor we cannot create a wide enough aisle because of the location of the equipment to provide passageway from all of the level boarding doors on the interior of the vehicle. S o, if
we
-- if we were to consider this is fully level entry vehicle under the A DA, the path restrictions basically if we use the tapered platform it would not be considered a level entry vehicle and we would have those pathway restriction issues in the ADA. T hat's where we concerned under the existing rules B would not be compliant.
>> Dennis: B ut there is no requirement to move throughout the car, the only requirement is from the accessible door to the space where the wheelchair sits, period. T here is no requirement to move from one door to the other anywhere in the rule.
>> Paul Beatty: Well, the issue would be if an individual in a wheelchair boarded at one of the end doors there is not accessible way to the wheelchair area of the
car. T he individual could stay near the door there would be room to that that's not a designated wheelchair location.>> Dennis: N ot required under the current rule.

>> CHRISTOPHER HART: On another note, in the room we have light rail manufacturers represented and at some point it would be probably very helpful for each of you to present your current stock available worldwide as well as what you can only offer in the U.S. currently. I know, personally, there are 100% low floor cars that can never get end to end on the cars. S o, there may be certain models are cars where there are issues. B ut I thin k for the purposes of the committee, it would be very

-- it would be beneficial to engage our friends from Siemens and others to present and obviously if we can get the Japanese and Korean colleagues to ever be involved in RVAAC and have them present as we ll for light rail. I know that you have questions on the Bob and from Gary, and

-- >> Bob Reuter here. I n the forward looking part one of the things we need to do is forward looking is two options that are starting to show up in other countries, two citi es in Germany are playing with the ultra low floor car, which only has a two

- inch floor to street clearance which is unreal. B ut they are doing it. A nd I think I just

-- okay. It is working. T he other thing is in Melbourne they are playing with somethi ng called they call a super stop. A nd if any description would be the Kessel curb on steroidsthat's the

-- KESSEL

-- there is a 14

- inch variance

between the two lanes. I t's usually the center lane that's the lower lane. S o, it gets really interesting t rying to drive in that area. (LAUGHTER) >> BILLY ALTOM: Thank you Gary. D id you have a question? Paul, we have Gary Talbot coming up. >> I thank you very much. G ary Talbot, Amtrak. J ust to comment about the coordination of the floor height and the platform height given that we have got technology today as was described, Tim interested in a follow

- up to Dennis' question. I f the doors are able to board and alight to that level boarding section is it a seating issue or something else? I mean for the 32

- inch wide path of travel? A s Chris stated there are several hundred percent low floor drawings that I viewed that do show path of travel. I am interested why there would not be a path of travel from end to end if all of the doors alight to the platfor m it signs like it's an interior design issue I can't imagine the motors would extend that far. T hank you.
>> Paul Beatty: T he motors and wheels and running gear intrude into the passenger compartment on the

-- in the case of the diagram on slide 20. T he trucks are on the ends on the end modules. S o, the motors, gears,those things intrude in. A nd essentially eliminate one set

of seats on each side. W ith the remaining seats even if they are narrowed, with having appropriate stanchions in place for folk toss reach so that you know folks on the interior of the vehicle always have a stanchion within reach we get into a situation where there is not a 13 inch

-- 32

- inch path of travel. T he current regulations at least as we understand them the only way to avo id it is to say this is not a level entry vehicle and the platform should be tapered at the end, and the two doorways in the center of the vehicle which are where the wheelchair locations are those then become the designated entry spots. >> CHRISTOPHER HART: So, Paul, to make that clear, but I would, again, say ultimately we need to hear from the manufacturers of the vehicles. A nd I would just note that in December I was sent down to Mexico City working at (inaudible) transit and these platform coordinatio n issues are the same issues that you are deal with in bus

-- bus traffic transit. W hen I think about the various systems around the world, all of the issues which I think Paul rightfully has raised are out there. B ut they are also all solvable. S o, the committee should be aware that nothing is actually unsolvable. I t's just a question of actually how you solve it.>> BILLY ALTOM: Thank you Paul. We have

--

>> Paul Beatty: I agree. T his is certainly the platform height and design issue is interior ci rculation is one of the issues. B ut the big

-- that specific just to the 100% low floor vehicle which is coming. W hich hasn't arrived yet. But our systems are under construction. B ut the biggie for us is the issues of the bridgeplates. W hen should a
s ystem be fully level boarding when should a system be
near
- level boarding. S hould the requirements for side barriers on bridgeplates be eliminated for low floor cars because it's

-- in our opinion, and based on the research that all other systems have don e is those hinder accessibility rather than assist. A nd then the issue the truncated half domes on the platform vs a little landing area for when you do use a bridge plate it provides a better more accessible experience for accessibility in our opinion. Those are really the areas that we would like to explore. >> This is Lis a Hamlin from Hearing Loss Association. I am wondering if you can speak at all about communication accessibility on streetcars, so for people who are blind or have low vision or peopl e who have a hearing loss or are deaf, how do

-- how do they get access on these vehicles?>> Paul Beatty: Well, we I believe the same

requirements as on the bus side. We have both audio and visual public address systems that are required. S o, the
annou ncement

-- many of the systems on the modern vehicles the announcement are all automated and triggered by a GPS system at least the station stop announcements. I f there are special announcements made related to service delays or interruptions or other
unu sual things, there is a list of those pre

- programmed into the system that streetcar operator can actuate. T he operator always has ts ability of just making regular PA announcements. B ut the majority of the announcements will have both the visual and audi o public address. >> This is Lis a again. S o, you are saying even if it's a special announcement there is a visual that somebody who has a hearing loss can see what the announcement is about?
>> If it's a special announcement that has been participated

-- has been anticipated, then

-- I will give you an example that's another streetcar but is

-- but is kind of a similar scenario. I forget which line it is. B ut there is a couple of the CTA heavy rail lines that cross over a bridge that all cross the Chicag o river that opens occasionally. I f the bridge opens the operator can selectAndraea nounsment saying, you know we apologize for

the delay it's automated announcement we apologize for the delay the bridge is open, please bear with us whatever. That annou ncement is both audio and visual. T here is certain pre

- programmed delay and unusual

-- you know or this vehicle is going out of service please all passengers exit the vehicle due to mechanical problem sore something those are all pre

- programmed into the p ublic address something that the operator can call on.
>> Thank you. >> BILLY ALTOM: Janice >> Janice Schacter, Hearing Access Program. W hat happens if it's not anticipated delay. I know I have been on Amtrak twice where there is issues whether snow stor m or the train broke down. A nd they were not anticipated types of delays. A nd the conductor was busy dealing with the issue. We had no idea what was going on. O ne was a snow storm. A nd everything was whited out. A nd so, we were delayed 7 hours. H ow does

-- is this dealt with when it's not an anticipated delay (inaudible) >> ... in the sense that there is only one vehicle so we haven't

-- unlike Amtrak where you coupled you have a couple train of vehicles together we only have the one vehicle there is an operator much like a bus there isoperator at the front of the vehicle. I f there is a situation

where something happens, the operator has closed circuit TV cameras that cover 100% of the interior of the vehicle. Those come up on the screen any time a n alarm is ack waited. S o the operator is constantly aware is who is on the vehicle much like a bus. S o, if there is a situation like that, the operator will simply remove the key out of the master controller, and step into the passenger compartment and individually assist any passengers that require it.
>> But the problem is, people with hearing loss don't self identify. A nd you can't see a hearing loss. You can't see when someone is wearing hearing aids. S o, the person
-- the operator would not know that in advance. The person might not speak up because they don't want to be stigmatized. S o, how do we deal with having the information communicated. A lso a person with a hearing loss you are asking permission to get information versus receiving the in formation just like every other passenger. >> Paul Beatty: S ure. I mean the only situations that we run into in streetcars essentially is that if the vehicle goes out of service prematurely, then what would happen is the operator would see that there is someone who has not exited the vehicle and they would go and see do theyrequire assistance.

>> I think this is an area the committee needs to address. B ecause while that sounds great and plausible in theory having experienced it I am sure Andrew and Lis a can expand upon it, but there are many situations that are not anticipated, and it is very scary to be to be in a situation not receiving information being dependent on other passengers. A nd the conductor obviously being busy or the driver being busy bec ause of the emergency. You don't want to be in a situation where you are like oh, my God I don't know what to do. S o, I think this

-- this is an area we make sure induction loops and visual alerts are timely not just pre

- programmed if there is a way base d on the GPS there is a way of someone inputting the information on a timely basis. >> Cool. D uly noted. F irst off, Ed and Clifton? >> ED HOFF: Just point of clarification the visual equivalent to the audible message that is required on bus, is not yet a dopted. A nd, also, there is no at present requirement for visual announcement on board the rail
car. T rue? >> True. >> ED HOFF: So, although there may be some visual signs on vehicles, they are not at present required tomimic the public address System. National Council of

Independent Living in terms of what we are talking about we have technology to put voice to text why not have the technology when the person makes an announcement, and the person who can't hear can read it. I don't know what is so difficult about that.
>> This problem has been discussed many times before you are right. W hatever is recorded is not always enough for what is required. I deally, you would have a real time system that provides visual and audio information at the same time

. N ot only on a display in the vehicle but at the same time on your mobile device. T hat's easier said than done because as we know this technology is not that easy speech to text in a commercial environment is not developed fully yet. B ut ideally, yes, real time information audio and visual would be very helpful. >> BILLY ALTOM: One from the audience? F ind your way to a microphone. >> John Day.
>> Thanks. J ohn Day with FTA. I wanted to make a few comments on the presentation I don't wa nt the committee left that the existing rules are hopelessly out of date with respect to streetcars. T here are provisions in subpart D that speak to light rail that operates on citiesstreets transit malls other areas where

-- the streets that

is basicall y a streetcar. A nd so, because they can be equipped with a lift ramp or level change mechanism there is really no reason to build a 14

- inch curb unless you want to. S o a lot of the images of conflicts between 14 inch curb you can't open the door of the b us, those are more operational issues, I think, than standards issues. Certainly if you want to have level boarding on the streetcar system you can do it but you have to recognize you can't use the light rail stop as a bus stop. I f you want to use the li ght rail stop as a bus stop don't build 14

- inch curb and recognize you need a lift ramp or level change mechanism on the streetcar fleet. S o, I just wanted to make sure everybody was clear on

-- I see some differences between you know, vehicle standards versus operational considerations. I just want to put it out there. >> BILLY ALTOM: Excellent point. T hank you. >> Janice: J ust to expand on what Edward and you, we need to make sure it's mandated MTA indicated that they will not comply with real time an ything or induction loop and this came from the chairman of the MTA Thomas Pendergraf, unless it's regulated they eliminated announcements from the buses going in induction loops in the buses and they when the bid came in on theLong Island Railroad a litt le higher than he allocated but

not high he said he would not

-- he told me this directly he would not put it in unless he was required by regulations. >> Good point.
>> Paul Beatty: T his is Paul, if I can jump in for a minute. >> BILLY ALTOM: Yes, do it Paul.
>> Paul Beatty: I n response to what Mr. Day said he is absolutely correct. T he only issue is that when we do use a lower level platform and do not usefully level boarding we are still dealing with some of the issues in subpart D related to the side barriers on the bridge plate and the trunk indicated half tubs that's really some of the properties are struggling. >> BILLY ALTOM: Gary? >> Gary: T hank you Mr. Chair. G ary Talbot, Amtrak. Follow

- up on the side edge guards. I would urge the committee to consider a distance

- based requirement where if it's a very short distance horizontally that you are try to go bridge out the side edge guards would be a hindrance to accessibility or to anyone else for that matter. I also think, and Dennis can speak to this, in redesigning bridge plates we found cases where there are section ofthe bridge plates at the end where maybe having the side

edge guard hurts you especially if you are in existing stations and you have got obstructions with head houses, pillars a nd things like that and you don't have free length and you have to have to have the ability to make a tight turn. U nrelated to that, I would bring up to the committee there is a lot of design issues with the doors as well. We had a situation at the team in Boston where the accordion style exterior doors on the type A car we wanted level boarding platforms for the cars because we had a steep ramp because of the door design they accordion you couldn't bring the platform up to the side of the car. While che aper to manufacturer initially when we went to do some really good stuff on level boarding we were not able to do that because of the door design, something for the committee to consider thank you. >> BILLY ALTOM: Thank you. E d, then Dennis.
>> Just to pi ggyback on that comment. I t is a function

-- before we do anything with bridge plates we should look at the function of the door width as well. Obviously if you have a narrow door width or bridge plate you got a little room for error there you have to co nsider side guards as opposed to a 10

- foot wide door where your room for error is much greater. T here is less of an issue.Also, depending on if you have a light rail in the same

territory perhaps freight you can't build the platform as close to the trai n car as you would like the bridge plate is actually bridging a horizontal gap. M aybe only a couple inches to the height but there maybe a big hole on the other side. W hen you fall off you are falling off. S o, we need to consider the length of the bridg e plate as well as width of the bridgeplate as height of the bridgeplate, the gap that you are bridging. A nd also consider suspension systems and the technology and cot of the suspension systems. I can't imagine they are cost prohibitive to perhaps if yo u wanted to do both bridgeplates and have suspension system, I would imagine that that would be doable because you do always want to provide as close

-- less a gap as possible. You want to match try to match the level boarding with the platform and the fl oor height as much as possible, thank you. >> BILLY ALTOM: Good comment. D ennis. >> Dennis: Yes, this is Dennis Cannon. W hen we worked on Portland to not have the side guards part of the issue was they provided a much wider bridgeplate than the 30

- inc h

-- minimum, and therefore the issue was you could hit the center of it very easily without having to worry about it. We also talked about the difference inheight from the edge that if the height was small, you

probably would not need it. W hen you are talking about bridgeplates on things like trains where you need to turn immediately off we talked about this during the

-- yesterday's demonstration about the idea of type perking that half inch or two inch requirement. D own to
zero. S econdly, as far as the detectable warning issue is concerned, I have ridden on light rail vehicles which have a bridgeplate it has a fairly wide rubber edge at the bottom it conforms quite nicely to the detectable warning. T here is no need to eliminate detectable warnings t hat might mean that a mind person steps off the platform. A ll you need to do is get the right technology and the right equipment for the bridgeplate in the first place. >> BILLY ALTOM: Perfect. T hank you. J im Weisman is up next, he is the final question , so we can
-- >> JIM WEISMAN: I had a question for people that operate bridgeplates now I was aware at Disney the monorail pedestrians were falling off the side of them turning ankles and things like that does edge protection stop it it from happening the re is a big crowd you are looking and straight ahead where you are going you are not looking down. A nd the people in front of you so you want to get around them you step off the side of thebridgeplate. T hinking that you are going to beat the

crowd why i s everyone going in this little three

- foot wide or 30

- inch wide path when they could step around and they turn ankles I am wondering if that is a problem to people who operate systems like that. D isney was telling me they were getting sued for it. >> Denn is: P eople can trip on the side too. >> JIM WEISMAN: That's true. >> BILLY ALTOM: Not sure there is a good answer for that. L ike what you said people are going to trip on almost anything. A ll right. T hank you Jim for bringing that up. Paul, thank you so much for the presentation we really appreciate it. >> Paul Beatty: M y pleasure. T hank you very much for the opportunity. >> BILLY ALTOM: Let's give Paul a round of applause, even though he is not with us. (APPLAUSE) >> BILLY ALTOM: Having said that we will break for lunch we are back here at 1:45. We will be back at 1:45 I expect you right back in here don't let the sunshine out there steal you. I want you back. (Lunch recess taken.) >> BILLY ALTOM: All right. We have folks back. Wewill start with the next presentation. I will a quick

announcement. Remember, when using your cell phones, use them back in the back or perhaps go down to outside our neighbors next door not the ones hammering but the National Council on Disability can hear throug h their walls of our conversation. A sk we talk back here. We have a couple of rooms back here behind me where you can be on the phone. J ust remember that in June, we have the APTA rail conference going on in Montreal and I think Paul if we could include that when you mail out the minutes from this the dates for that conference. A nd if anybody is interested in attending there should be a lot of rail vehicles there. Agreat opportunity to show and tell see and touch smell all of that good stuff. B eing a round different styles of rail cars. S o, we have that. A ll right. We got most of the folks back it looks like. I didn't lose too many to the sun yes go ahead. >> UWE RUTENBERG: Sorry to interrupt. At the rail conference, APTA rail conference, we are h olding a workshop investigating the impacts of rail car and platform safety interfaces. I think this is an issue that has come up here in our committee as well. S o, if anybody is there at the conference anyway, we would love to see you there, and give yo ur input into these issues which we willdiscuss. I t's TCRP project, and we are looking forward to

have as many representatives from the industry there as well. >> BILLY ALTOM: You are welcome, thank you. Melissa, do me a favor, twist that blind. I can' t see anything

-- >> CRYSTAL LYONS: I wanted to add there won't necessarily be rail vehicles at the conference but there is a technical conference there will be a lot of technical sessions. I f someone was thinking about going and hadn't made their plans I recommend going. T he other thing that happens there are a lot of committees you know the rail committees meet during that time. S o, that's also something to

-- if you happen to be there. You don't have to register to attend the committee meetings. You can go and attend the committee meetings. A s far as vehicles being there there won't be by representatives from the

-- >> BILLY ALTOM: I read that wrong I thought there would be rail vehicles there. I wanted to touch stuff that's what I like to do. >> Hi Crystal, Kim Jackson, University of Kansas. I am currently doing my research on accessibility for commuter rail. A nd obviously it's not in my budget because I am apoor college student to attend the conference. W ill any of

those handouts from the technical sessions be available after the conference is over? >> CRYSTAL LYONS: I don't know. I know they are for the conference attendees. I don't know

-- do you have a list

-- do you have our roster of our contact information? >> For this meet meeting?
>> PAUL BEATTY: When you said contact information to

-- I only send out contact information to committee members. >> CRYSTAL LYONS: I would say contact APTA and ask them about getting access to the presentations.
>> All right. G reat. T hank you. >> BILLY ALTOM: One other quick point of business before we hit Stanton's presentation. We always allow time for public comment. A s looking out into the audience today. I s there anybody that is going to want to make a public comment so I can help plan my time how much for these presentations? We are going to have a committee meeting afterward. S ee anybody that

-- would like to make a statement? I don't see any hands or nodding of the head. S o, awesome, thank you. Paul?
>> PAUL BEATTY: Paul Beatty anybody on the conference call line wanting to make a public commentplease let me know not to make it now but so Billy can

plan for later during the public comment time there are currently four people on the line. O kay. T his is Paul Beatty I hear no one indicat ing that they want to make comment later. O kay Billy? >> BILLY ALTOM: Awesome. A ll right. H ere we go our first presentation after lunch is going to be from the Ricon Corporation overview of vehicle Access Systems. W hat we want to try to do is get throu gh each of these in about 30 minutes. I got a stick over here Stanton. (LAUGHTER) But having said that, Stanton, let me turn it over to you.
>> Stanton: T hank you very much, and thank you for the opportunity. I think before I get too far into this there is certainly a little bit of bias associated with the presentation first and foremost it's really specifically for vehicle

- born systems not anything that might be on the platform or words to that effect. A nd simi lar three there is Ricon bay bias to the whole thing as well. T hat said moving right along, a little bit of history. We are not anywhere near as old as railroad, Ricon only goes back to sort of the early '70s, which is really sort of the beginning of what we might call the accessibility or mobility products industry. T he dual arm parallel arm lift which is the mainstay of paratransit service was introduced in the middle

80's. We introduced and under floor lift in the early 90's it's not necessarily the first under floor lift ever introduced that's when we did it. We introduced powered folding ramps just before the millennium they acquired the Stewart and Stevenson lift division I mention this because quite a number of cars were made accessible using on e of their systems and that system continues to be available today and we have refined it and are doing more things with it now. We are required by Wabtec in June of 2007. We do 12,000 accessibility systems a year. O ur install base is pretty much all over the planet. We have 30,000 odd in Europe and Asia. S omewhere in the neighborhood of 100,000 in North America I need to be conservative. And then urban transit and motor coach accessibility is a newer thing over paratransit. T he install base is a lit tle smaller, yet and of course as far as rail vehicle accessibility is concerned, we do have some 1600 units or 1600 disitems deployed worldwide. The beginning of the industry as we sort of know it today, goes back to

-- hello. Two patents. O ne filed by a gentleman called Scott Decon back in 1973 and a another gentleman called Pierre in 1984 these for offed into what become the dual parallel arm lift which is themain stay of most paratransit fleets largely around the

world. I n small personal mobility ac cess light commercial and paratransit as well as school buses. T his is typically where you find this type of equipment. O ur S and K series lifts are some of the most prevalent. This slide contains data I shared last year when looking at sizes of platform s and capacities of units and what was popular and I think thought it would be relevant to the conversation here. J ust as a point of

-- a data point, you can see there the first line of data you see 26, 30, 32, 34, 39.5. T hose are platforms widths in inc hes the most popular model is 34 inches wide. A lmost 42% of the units produced for the timeframe that this was measured almost 42% were 34 inches wide. Avery similar percentage were 54 inches in length. S o, is it common to have a platform size larger t han the size that's currently part of the regulation, it absolutely is. S imilarly all of those units that were produced to these sizes had capacity of 800 pounds. We do offer a system today with capacity of a thousand. B ut do our systems available that exceed 600 pound limit there certainly are. The other type of system that I wanted to wanted to make sure we touched on was the under floor cassette type solution. I bring this up primarily because this is oneof the more widely deployed units in the rail fleet in North

America. A couple of other systems over here on the right is our bay lift fairly common in motor coach fleets. Over on the left

- hand side is the rotating column lift that

-- well is probably some of the most widely deployed systems in nort h American rail today. Here is some examples. T his is our Mirage type cassette lift in application with New Jersey Transit motor coach. A nd then over on the left

- hand side is a very similar yet different variant of the system installed in the step well of an older urban transit bus in Orange County California. Again, a couple of similar systems in motor coach application. T he units over on the left is our

-- a latest offererring to motor coach fleets. Again, the primary benefit or the primary aim of t he product over on the left is to provide the automatically deployable platform that sits under the floor of the coach but to do so in a way it sits down on the floor of the luggage bay and allows maximum use of the luggage space. W here you see the unit o n the right, it deploys for more or less the middle area of the luggage bay and significantly reduces the capacity of that particular luggage bay. L ike in New YorkCity Transit coach or New Jersey Transit coach, they are

largely what you might refer to as suburban application. They are typically not going to load the luggage bays. Pardon the technical difficulties. So, available luggage space isn't an issue. C ertainly for the longer haul line haul like gray hound the unit over on the left is more to th eir liking. Again, a couple of examples of coach accessibility solutions. T he one over on the far right is vehicle operating in Australia, that's an example of our bay lift. You see this fits in a compartment typically mind the drive axle on one side or the other of the engine. A nd provides access to the coach that way. T he unit over on the left is our rotating column lift. T he one we acquired from our friends at Stu art Steven son. T his is the one you find in most applications. The advent of the low floor bus the 2000's or urban transit went toward low floor. Really obviating the use of a lifting device for something automatically deployable ramp. S o drawing that I have here is a simple powered fold over type ramp typically used in the low floor u rban transit bus. As far as what is the latest and greatest thing coming out as far as urban transit buses are concerned, some of these have been displayed already in trade events likeappear at that

-- like APTA, if you look at the slope of the

floor fro m the ramp tray on to the ramp itself up into the vehicle you will see that it's adjusting as the ramp slope increases. S o, in the upper frame there, the unit is deployed to 8 and a half inch curve. B ut the transition from the ramp plate on to the ramp s urface and then into the vehicle is a smooth and level surface all the way in. You can see as the curb reduces in height, the slope increases but it increases all the way into the vehicle. Now, as far as rail applications of 1078 of these

-- some of thes e systems is concerned you saw in the earlier presentation this is the San Diego trolley there is a couple of systems deployed over the years. T he unit on the left is lighter style aluminum unit. We deployed S and K product into that application. I n that case you are talking about a relatively high floor vehicle, and typically a street

- level type of platform access. The unit that we are looking at here in the lower left and sorry lower right and upper left. T he actually the picture here in the lower ri ght is right here in town our friends at VRE use a variant of our cassette type wheelchair lift in the mid vestibule of the bi

- level gallery car. T his is also the main stay unit at northeast Illinois commuter rail or Metra in the Chicago area. T he combin ed fleet issomewhere in the neighborhood of 1500 units. I n the

gallery car it works kind of nice in that it's installed in the middle part of the car. Away from the trucks and the draft gear. Another reason why the column lift is preferred in other
car s you don't have this space available under the doorway, because of the draft gear and in the truck. This is examples of the restating column lift in service this is one of the longest serving applications of this type of equipment in some cars operated b y Amtrak in California. T his system was deployed over 15 years ago. There was an overhaul done to them a few years back. But the equipment is still doing its thing. More recently, we have deployed systems with our friends at Bombardier into north star as well as another new commuter rail service in Florida I believe they are referred to as sun rail. T his, again, is a variant of the rotating column lift for the benefit of maybe some of the operators in the room, one of the things that we have done with the rotating column lift is we have made it modular so there is no longer a hydraulic interface between

-- that is part of the installation. T he hydraulic power pack is all integrated into the unit so the only interface that you are dealing with now are m echanicallybolting it to the side of the car and putting power to it and

a few signals. And more recently with our friends at Talgo, deployment of column lift, one of the things that makes this unit kind of unique, there is an automatically deploying ste p so the integration with this particular system posed a few challenges with regard to when the step should deploy or not based on the position of the wheelchair lift but working with our colleagues over there through their engineering organization ended u p with a very nice application. And finally, the most recent, this is a photograph of the mockup for the new PRIIA cars built by our friends at Nippon deployed in California in the midwest. A nd just for the record, the platform size on the that's part of the PRIIA build is 54 inches in length 30 inches in width 800

- pound capacity. Lastly, of course, there is discussion about bridgeplates I wanted to point out we got one too. B ut there is not much that I can offer than what is already presented by my frien ds at APTA on the current state of affairs on the use of automated bridgeplates in various service. I am pretty much done. I know you are trying to go fast. S o, are there any questions that we could entertain at this point?>> CHRISTOPHER HART: Stanton, can you go back to

slide 15, it's a non

-- for the nonrail folks. Yes. N o, 16. This is a great example of why when gallery cars you can never actually provide level boarding. T here is simply no way to get to level

-- there is simply no way to get to level boarding with the style of entry on this type of car. I know in previous meetings we didn't have a good photo of that, this is why. T hat's all I wanted to point out. A nd the PRIIA lift is very helpful for folks who have been involved with PRIIA to know that that is evolving.
>> That's right. C ertainly

-- >> CHRISTOPHER HART: Thank you for your good work. (LAUGHTER) >> Stanton: T hank you very much. >> BILLY ALTOM: Awesome. A ny other questions? >> Blair Slaughter Am trak curious do you see issue in taking the PRIIA lift for the bi

- level into a single level condition? >> Stanton: S houldn't be a problem there. The

-- what has

-- well, actually the bi

- level car that

-- the bi

- level cars that we did with our friends at Bombardier for both north star and for sun rail, I am just going to flip back a couple of slides here just to one of the

-- those photographs. B ear with me. T here. I f youlook

-- I am going to make use of the laser pointer. B ut

you see here there is a column, the structure of the bi

- level car is a delicate thing as I am sure you are well
aware. T he

-- in normal application with that rotating column lift we are typically loading the door post and we end up with a pretty significant reaction right sort o f mid post. B ecause of the concerns associated with the bi

- level car, what we ended up doing was making a nice big long post. I t did add to the weight of the system but it allowed us to put the reactions into the structure at the floor you know basically at the sheer planes. A nd you know really made for a relatively simple alteration of the vehicle body to make it work. >> BILLY ALTOM: Dennis and you Janice.
>> Dennis Cannon: T he gallery car problem is the steps are integrated if they had a trap over th e steps you could do level boarding.
>> Stanton: S ure you could. >> Janice: C an I ask is there anything new on the horizon we have issues with gaps between the car and the subway station. D o you know why these haven't been used at the New York City subway stations? >> Stanton: I think that would be a better question to ask my friends at New York. T here are certainly systemsavailable at least from a technical standpoint that could be

used probably the most likely

-- I am going the wrong way aren't I? Sorry about that. All the way at the end. B ut yes, the issue is going to be. >> Janice: L ike that could work for subways how does that works it fields in? >> Stanton: T hat's an automated bridgeplate. I t withdraws into the floor. I got one frame here t hat shows the plate deployed and then another example here this is in the Beijing Metro where the unit is stowed under the floor. >> Janice: S o I understand it slides back in.
>> Stanton: I will send you a link to YouTube, you can see how it runs in and out.
>> Maybe MTA

-- has this been considered? >> This is Frank Maldari. I am not that familiar with everything MTA has looked into. I do see some problems looking at it quickly. P eople at the

-- on the New York City subway system are usually crowding t he doorway and if that was deployed they probably stand more of a risk of tripping over it whether it's any time that it's out. N ow, that being said, like I said, I haven't been that involved in what the France sit authority is trying to do in this area, I know that they had a movable platform to address gapsand gone through great lengths to make them as small as

practical. T he thing to keep in mind, with any of the subway systems, is things have to happen quickly. A nd you know, getting on and off the t rain or subway car with a crowd of people is not consistent with movable floor that's going to move in and out of the car. S o, majority of the focus has been reducing the gap as far as it possibly can, putting fillers in there, otherwise controlling it so that you can go over it with a wheelchair if you have to. >> BILLY ALTOM: David then you Jim. >> David: Yes, I am David from Amtrak. I wanted to talk about the automatic bridgeplate for a second. I am very interested in that a lot. I t seems like with the low floor and the platform they aren't level. A nd that causes problems. A nd so we do need something that will help people to go up and bridge that gap. A nd you know, there are many reasons why that can be a problem. You have weather, and what not. And sometimes wheelchairs, you know, it seems like their wheels are actually getting smaller and that also causes for replacements often. A nd I am sure that we, you know, will hopefully continue to evolve in the future. >> Stanton: C ertainly Stan again the typical use of the automated bridgeplate is going to be an application wherethe vertical gap is relatively small on the order of a couple

of inches. A nd, again, it's I should say I will call it a negative vertical gap. I n other words, the vehicle fl oor height is higher than the platform. B ecause in the other direction you are going to end up in a situation very similar to what was shown earlier by my colleague where the bus ramp was deployed out on a simulated high curb of course you know, it left t he ramp sort of hanging out there in fresh air no way to get a wheelchair across it. I n cases where there is relatively small vertical gap and a horizontal gap that's appreciable mentioned by some of my colleagues earlier the situation that exists with
co mmuter rail. You have a long

- ish horizontal gap to transition. T his particular piece of equipment and the slide here is good for vertical gap of about 2 and a half inches horizontal gap of about 7. >> BILLY ALTOM: Jim keep it just to a couple of more.
>> JIM WEISMAN: About the bridgeplates in New York City we have been dealing with this issue since the late '70s, early '80s, there was no real technology then. B ut there are several problems. O ne is many times the train when it's fully loaded is too low t o use a bridgeplate. They have been feathering up platforms to embrace the train when they are low. A nd building out with actualwood boards, even, along the sides of the platforms to

close gaps. B ut it's a huge problem. A nd it's the most significant d isincentive to wheelchair users on the system. Fear of crime and all of that stuff is mine nor these people are living in New York City. (LAUGHTER) >> It's not that different. I t's just a flight down. I t's not that different. T he issue is front w heel casters and giant gaps and sometimes the vertical gap is way above what it should be. You know, it's just an old system. And it's really difficult. T he other thing is that the expense is staggering. A nd people will come to expect it. It's like tr uncated domes, you know, if you put them only in key stations they become useless because people are using every station. P eople are going to want this on every car at every stop. A nd it's going to have to be phased in in a new car way it will never be r etrofit it have to be car

- borne and adjusted to whatever the differential is. S omebody is going to get very rich when they invent one MTA buys we are talking about a lot of cars that are going to get this. R ight now virtually all of the stations have som e part of the platform that is not compliant with accessibility standards now. A nd bridgeplate is probably the only answer.>> BILLY ALTOM: Awesome 5 minutes left in Gary's

time, let me get Ed. >> Ed Steinfeld, a question for Stanton. I have seen te lescoping approaches that

-- where the device is coming out from under the floor, so people can still be standing on top of it. A nd I say saw

-- I know there is a video online from London transport which shows this in a bus. And then I have also seen a d esign that isn't implemented yet but it's

-- seems to be an interesting system for rail too that goes either way it goes like if you have doors on both sides it can go out one way and out the other you might be familiar with that. A ny chance these hitting a market soon or what are the problems with them? >> Stanton: Well London is a very interesting example. They

-- and with deference to Frank's comment earlier has a lot to do with how often the system is demanded. I f you were to look at the ridership i n London and in New York or the Rydership in other cities that I have had an opportunity to look at the numbers, the number of times that the system is actually deployed is on the order of a tent of what it is

-- 10th of what it is our disabled community

- - maybe the term is more politically organized I am not sure what it is. B ut there are more demanding lot and they get what they

-- you know, theyget what they are asking for. A nd maybe not in all cases

and maybe not to the standard that they maybe shou ld do but relative to other cities in the world. You know, there is a voice there that

-- there is a voice here that isn't necessarily there. With specific regard to technical problems associated with what they do in London versus here, the sliding soluti on is we used to do one, we got out of it just for the simple reason that you know it wasn't as reliable as other alternatives. T he by far the most common thing used in urban transit bus is a fold

- over type of ramp. G iven there are more lawyers here than people in a lot of cases, that became the standard is really a bit mind boggling a lot of the objections in Europe it's going to hit somebody it's going to hurt somebody but it's still by far the sidest used system in Northern America today. I t does prov ide a nice balance between you know the demands of the community for its use, and the reliability of the system when you put the bloody button the things works. What you do find much more frequent use of it it's not just for those with mobility impairment s. You know, I had occasion I broke my legs a couple years ago playing soccer and road a wheelchair and had an interesting experience. Rode on some of the systems in Los Angeles found wowthey do use these things people get out of the way. You

know, the re is

-- the education level of the other riders has an awful lot to do with how well the system works. But having had the opportunity to actually to do it, it

-- well, that

-- when the system is deployed at a bus stop, you know, people get out of the way to make you
-- to make space for to you get on it does work. A s far as where things are headed, certainly lowering the slope is you know what most folks are asking for these days. We do have a new system that we have just recently deployed that we call a self aligning type of slope. B ut as far as anything that deploys from under the door. Alot of those things go back to

-- well, in the very early days, yeah you can do anything you want to my bus, just you know don't change it. S o, some of the really early systems were bolt ons. A nd you really don't get a good technical solution until you start talking about integrating it into the vehicle. S o, yeah, the fold

- over ramp is where things are in urban transit buses I am not sure if a sliding solution is the right

-- somewhere between educating the rested of the public that also ride the vehicle and the system, is where the solution is going to be. B ecause the sliding solution you know yeah you can keep the door closed and manage the crowd but you have a system that'sinherently less reliable because there are more moving

bits. T he folding, ramp, okay you need for folks to stay out of the way while the device goes through its paces but the experience we have had with urban transit buses suggest it is poss ible to do that. T he rest of the community will eventually get it. A nd the thing will work. >> BILLY ALTOM: Actually time for two more Blair Dennis and Ed you will be up next. >> Blair Slaughter: T hank you Billy. S tanton, when you get out of the sort o f almost perfect world of level platforms or level to the earth not level to boarding, and you have stations that are in curves or maybe you have a situation that we could encounter on our railroad where we need to off load folks in a less than perfect spo t, do you have or do you have in your think tank something that would self level the platform even if the car itself isn't level or the ground below isn't level so you can tolerate the super elevations and things like that >> Stanton: You hit it. I mean, as far as, you know the single biggest challenge with some of the things in the current reg I brought this up when the

-- when we were having the NGC subcommittee. Yeah the super elevation requirements, we could do this. You know, to

-- well, in point o f fact, we offered a system some time ago thatended up you know with fairly wide am indication freight

applications where you know the ramp had a powered tilt, you know, essentially, you know you could toe it up or down depending on the conditions that yo u were trying to load in. T here is some cost associated with do it

-- with doing it for certain. B ut at the end of the day, when you start looking at the floor in the vehicle in that super elevated condition is it really okay to be loading under those ci rcumstances. So, I mean I think somewhere in between there has got to be a right spot. B ecause I mean from an operating perspective, look, I mean half the train is stretching around the curve, and the curve is you know 5 inches different rail height that' s a reality. A nd either we are going to offer the service, or we are not. And if we are going to then there are these conditions that we need to be aware of. S o, yeah, from the standpoint of can a piece of equipment be developed that can level itself, we ll, absolutely. T hat is not a technical problem. B ut the question is, you know, should folks be boarding and alighting under those conditions is that really the right thing to do. A nd I

-- I would hope that you know there could be

-- would be some membe rs of the community here that might have insight as to how farwe push that. I s a full on, what is it, 7

- degree super

elevation are those conditions conditions under which it's okay to be loading and off loading. I am
-- I am personally I don't know.
>> BILLY ALTOM: Dennis you had the final question.
>> Dennis Cannon: S ome of the

-- we have to remember what we are dealing with now is regulations that are covering new

-- new vehicles. A nd some of the things that are solutions are probably station based. This committee isn't working on that issue at the facility side. I can tell you all of the horror stories back in the early days you couldn't have lifts on buses people would dash off when the lift was down. You couldn't have a low floor bus in the area it requires a step in the rear to get up over the engine and that would never be permitted because of liability and people would trip and sue the agency. A nd there were hundreds and hundreds of horror stories about how all of these things couldn't possib ly work. T hings that working very well today. I don't recall

-- I didn't see it but when Amtrak was thinking about bringing in high

- speed rail it brought in an ice train I believe from Germany and Swedish train the Swedish train had a lift. I remember c hecking that out. I was told but not

-- but did not see the ICE train had at each door essentially adrawbridge that folded out when the door opened. A nd it

was automatic. I t didn't slide out from under the floor or anything. I t just flipped out and cl osed the gap. T he other thing is there are lots of other gaps that we were told when writing the early reg you couldn't get in a rapid rail for instance anything better than a 3

- inch horizontal we know it's not true both March at that and WMATA have gotte n down to 2 and less than 2 with significant nonmechanical mechanisms. Remember the light rail muni system the streetcar in San Francisco operates part of its route in a tunnel with level boarding and then has steps that fold down for its operation on the street. W hen you are in the tunnel, this is raised earlier about the gap between the vehicle because the

-- because of the plug doors opposed to sliding doors. P lug doors move out and around. T here is a big gap between the platform and the car of the m uni system in San Francisco. T here is a little device under the step that simply folds out and plugs the gap. T here are lots and lots of solutions. A ll we need to do, basically, is set the parameters which in my opinion should be a very simple thing tha t when the gap exceeds X, horizontally and or Y vertically, you have to do something. Ramp, lift, bridgeplate, whatever. S et the standards for the bridgeplates set the standards for thelifts set the standards for the ramps and let the operators

decide w hich of the things that they have to do. I nstead of having the complicated thing we have in the current reg if it's old, new equipment. O ld station equipment new station et cetera, et cetera. J ust set the parameter that says greater than 2 inches do som ething, period. Incidentally a lot of things

-- something that people don't quite realize sometimes is under the current ADA facility regulation, new platforms cannot be curbed. I know we have old platforms out there that are. B ut under ADA current regu lation if you build a new station it has to be straight. >> BILLY ALTOM: Thank you. I am sure Stanton will be around with us rest of the day if you have questions he will
answer. Let's give him a round thank you I appreciate it. (APPLAUSE) >> BILLY A LTOM: Edward, ready? We will roll into the next presentation thank you.

>> Ed: I am going to make presentation on research that

-- some of which is old, some is new. T his work is

-- about it was done

-- completed in 2010. B ut the first part of it but it took 10 years to get it all done. The second part is relatively new, we haven't published alot on it. B asically, the work that we have been doing at

the idea center is focused on getting better information on the sizes and abilities of wheeled mobili ty users. A nd the reason for that is that the research

-- that the standards that we currently use are based on research that I directed in the '70s the late '70s and it was really done with less than 60 people. 6 0 wheeled mobility users. I n those days, 90% of the wheelchairs were made by Ericson Jennings wheelchair they were all the same size. S o, the requirements that are based on wheelchair size are

-- also things like reach and it's more about the people. P eople have changed I should say too. T he most obvious one being they have gotten bigger. A nd so that the requirements that you see in accessibility codes today may not apply because of the increased diversity of wheeled mobility users and body sizes of people who use wheeled mobility devices. I am talking about manual chairs power chairs and scooters. T here are also a lot of new technologies, different ways of purchasing wheelchairs that result in different kinds of products. A nd if you take a look at Chris's chair you will see that people do things to their chair. T hey add accessories, they have postural supports and other kinds of things that are customized. Then finally there are changes in transportationtechnologies and consumer expectations that have

occurred. So, the first study I am going to talk about is anthropometry of wheeled most users it was through a grant of the RERC on universal design in the built environment. A nd the U.S. Access Board funded it for another five years. S o that work was done from 1999 that should be 2010 no t 2019 we haven't gotten there yet. (LAUGHTER) >> Ed: I am going to talk after that about a study we are doing in our lab, a study we did in our lab on buses. But you will see it had relevance to work we are doing here. T hat was funded by NIDRR as well through another grant we have called the RERC on accessible public transportation. T hat grant ended in 2014. B ut we got refunded and we are now

-- in that work we are doing research on large buses and in this new five

- year cycle we are continuing that work and will be working on small buses as well. S o, starting with anthropometry research. These

-- this slide shows how we did our data collection. We used a

-- for much of the work we used what is called three dimensional probe. I t allowed us to ta ke dimensions

-- this thing keeps going on and off. S o, that allowed us to

-- that allowed us to take measurements ofpeople's bodies using a standardized set of landmarks you

see in the left

- most picture a person being measured sitting still. A nd then we also were able to take measurements of the reaching abilities in the second picture to the right we took dimensions of reaching ability. Then we also did a series of studies where we set up

-- we could move walls and find out what the minimum clearances were for doing different kinds of maneuvers which you see in the third picture. A nd then the last picture I won't get into it we took measurements of gripping and grip strength. We studied

-- actually, we eventually reached 500. This slide compares the demographics of our population compared to what the statements are are the wheeled mobility user population and rather than going through all of the details recognize basically we had more men than women because we

-- we and our colleagues in Pittsburgh
co llected data from Veterans hospital where they are mostly men. B ut only

-- not very many people were actually collected from that. B ut we tended to have more
men. We also over sampled power chair users and scooter users mainly because

-- powered chair u sers mainly because we wanted to get sufficient numbers in the powered chair category in order to make somegeneralizations.

And we were not able to get as many scooter users estimated to be in the general population we find scooter users find it difficul t to get to our laboratory or wherever we set up to do the research they can't transport their device. T hey often use them only at home and don't use them when they travel away from the home. Or the neighborhood. We had a very diverse population. I won' t go into that. B ut our research reports are available if people are interested they can look into them. We developed a software application to take the data and put it together so we could analyze it and study it in many different ways. A nd we have done

-- we have only scratched the surface of what we can do. F or most people in the sample we construct a three dimensional model like you see in the illustration. A nd then take measurements that we actually didn't take in the field because we can use the m odel to take

-- to take additional measurements. And for every person we have videos

-- well I wouldn't say for everyone some of the cases we couldn't do it. We have video and still photographs of the people and who they are. A nd we set up the database so we could do analysis like you see

-- let me go back here. L ike you seeon the right (indicating) that histogram. A nd let's see this

thing doesn't point does it? O kay. We can select the extreme parts of the histogram where there are only a few people

. A nd we can say who are those people there. I f we set standards that are excluding certain people we could say who are we excluding. We can drill down and get the individuals from the sample that we would exclude and find out why it is that we might be excluding them. And so, for example, if you set the standards for 30 inches we could go

-- for a platform lift we could go back and see what is excluded and who are those people, you know, how many and what is the nature of their

-- their wheelchair or th eir whatever is causing them to be wider than 30 ins.

-- 30 inches we are talking about chair dimensions. S ome of our findings. T he first one is cleared floor space. W hat we found and what you are seeing here is illustrations showing the manual chairs t he power chairs and the scooters. A nd we belief in not separating those three devices. N ot putting them all together. B ecause if you set standards based on overall numbers, then you are going to favor the manual wheelchair user population. I t's the power chair users and the scooters that

-- that have the largest

-- so we have to look.>> It's blinking red.

>> Maybe it's going down in battery. (Discussion off record.)

(LAUGHTER) >> Ed: O kay. S o, what we do is we present our findings in the three different categories. W hat we find for clear floor space if we use the current dimensions for clear floor space used in the standards 30 by 48, you will find that we are excluding about 25% of manual wheelchair users, 50% of power chair users and 50% of scootedders. That's

-- scooters that's the numbers that exceed those dimensions. T he length is the most important dimension. The limitation of the clear floor space also it doesn't really consider the differences in how a task might be performed whether left or right landed forward or side ways. T he illustration shows in graphic form the extent of the people who are excluded. I will show you more illustrations but you can see these

-- the red boxes that are sliding on to the screen, show the part of the population that is excluded. T here are four numbers in each dimension, the lowest one is the 50th percentile, the second one is 75th percentile and then the third is the 90th and the fourth is the 95th percentile.Okay. Now this chart looks at clear floor space in

relation to the thing that you are reaching to. W hat we found was that the best reaching condition is in the plane of the shoulder whether it be the plane that goes through the body front to back or the plane t hat goes across the shoulders. A nd that's what people can reach the furthest not die ago gone alley or backgrounds or things like that die ago began

-- diagonally. T his chart is looking at universal space. N ow it gets pretty big. S o, we are not suggest ing that we require such a space but we just want to point out, that unlike current standards that sort of in housing that assume that the reaching target is in the center, that's not really where the best location is in terms of relationship of the clear floor space to the object. S o, these are the these are the different ways people might approach an object to reach to it in the most optimal way. And this chart graphic shows functional reach forward. And this one is only really manual wheelchair users we have similar charts for the other groups. I f we just look at manual wheelchair users who tend to be those who are more likely to have functional reaching abilities about 85 percent of the manual wheelchair users we measured had some reaching capability. And 77% of those users could reach beyond their toes. G reater percentage could reachat closer distances. I f you look at the

-- wait a minute.

77% could not

-- that should be could not reach beyond their toes. And the

-- if you look at the chart, whic h shows the percentage of people could reach to any cell in that matrix, you could see that people can reach over their knees much easier than they can over their toes. S o, what we conclude from this is that if you have forward reach if you want to make i t functional you have to have a knee clearance. You have to have space to get

-- that the knees and toes underneath it in order to make it really functional. And you can see on the 69% of the manual wheelchair population that we measured can actually reac h to the limit of reach that are allowed by current standards. And this is a sweet spot it goes higher than the 48 inches. You have to remember that the 48 inches is also people of short stature. N ot just for wheelchair users. And this is the side ways reach similar data showing side reach. A nd you can see that the

-- it's much easier to reach from the side a lot more people can reach in this direction. At a higher point and closer to the

-- closer to the body. A nd but when the

-- when the reach targe ted reach goes beyond

-- too far out, then the reaching abilitydrops significantly, and the data shows that current

standards say side reach over a countertop are really not adequate. Let's see. So, there is the sweet spot close to the body about 8 inche s away from the body, beyond that things start tailing off. T he ability of people to reach starts decreasing >> What is

-- this is Blair from Amtrak. W hat is the measurement point for in a 8 inches center line

-- >> 8 inches from the side of the wheelcha ir.
>> Blair Slaughter: O kay, okay, wasn't sure that.
>> Ed: T he

-- so you can see that on the chart, the wheelchair is lined up with the 0 point, you see that?
>> PAUL BEATTY: This is Paul Beatty. F irst, my understanding on using the mic, the closer you get to it the more it cuts off. >> Ed: I don't know what was going on I have a habit of getting too close.
>> PAUL BEATTY: The second thing is, I found out that the batteries for the microphone should have been charged for lunch we know that the commu nication subcommittee would like too use the assistive listening system I am going to ask you to do an additional task if you could all turn off your mic, except when you are speak there is a little button at the very end if you press it theflashing light will go from green to red. A nd this way we

will save some juice and we have a few extra batteries if things really go bad we will pass around one mic. S o, I learned you guys learned back to you Ed. T hank you.
>> Ed: T his slide shows knee and toe clearances. What you see here is similar, findings that the current knee and toe clearances are not accommodating the range of people that we have using wheeled mobility devices today. And the illustrations shows the 20

-- the different percentiles as I menti oned before. Even the 95th percentile doesn't quite make it clear of this. B ut of the dotted line which is the current standards. B ut it also suggests a different maybe a different way of developing these standards too. And these are all with people lin ed up according to their toes. U sing the method that we developed we can line people up by their toes or rear of the wheelchair or move the chairs around in a mathematical space or virtual space to get these different kinds of dimensions. To analyze thes e different kinds of issues. O kay. Just going to skip through that. A nd one of the things that people always ask, well is it the larger people causing the larger knee clearances? Actually it isn't. I t's the postural it's the posture device

-- the posit ioning devicesthat we have in modern wheelchairs. S o, you can see in

the second person from the on the top right these are several sets of photographs that are up on the screen now, of people who

-- people in our sample, and on the top left the second on e in, that's a very short individual but he is being positioned very high up in the chair so he can have better eye contact with people he is talking to and reach all of the things in the environment. H is knees are way up in the air, he needs high knee cl earance down on the right, you see a very large man, he has fused knees, so his

-- through procedures he has had. H e has legs extended way out. S o, he requires a very deep knee clearance. T here are a lot of different reasons why people require these kne e clearances. I am going to move on to maneuvering clearances. We found to do a complete turn, a person needs a lot more space than the 60 inches we associate with the turning diameter today. A nd the, it's only the manual wheelchair users who are
accomm odated by the 60

- inch turning space. B ut more than about 50% of the power chair users and more of the scoot

-- scooter users could not turn in the 60

- inch space. B efore I switch to another subject does anybody have questions? >> CHRISTOPHER HART: For sho rt on time.>> Ed: I n the bus simulation research we set up a

simulated low floor bus just the front part of it. A nd it's

-- and we have adjustable height platform to study different ramp slopes. A nd we did studies a number of different kinds of studies in this bus including we did ramp slope study. We did a study of the front end of the bus with the fair payment getting through the wheel wells. We studied the width between the wheel wells she also studied different access from the back. We did three different

-- we studied three different layouts and studied them both under empty and crowded conditions or light load crowded conditions we put mannequins in the seats. And we studied where

-- how people could use these different kinds of entries. S o we have a front entry like the standard front entry. Layout 2 is a rear entry with front egress. A nd the last one is rear egress and entry. These aren't really rear because there is a second part of the bus up stairs in the back. T hey are mid entry, it

would be the way to really talk about it. And we were able to talk about how much time people needed for different aspects of the tasks of riding a bus. We have a statistical model of the different times it takes for people to do things in a laboratory se tting anyway. And we can estimate the savings in time and dwell time fordifferent kinds of accessibility devices.

For example, ramps versus lifts versus different securement systems. We had a diverse sample with blind and visually impaired individuals a nd this is a photograph of the bus simulation from the top some of the findings
were
-- these are findings of issues that we identified and then solutions. I am going to highlight some findings that don't

-- that aren't about wheelchair use some are but o thers aren't just to give you and indication of some of the things we discovered for rear entry, people had visually impaired people had difficulty identifying where the aisle was once they got off the ramp where do they turn? We have

-- I am not going to get into the recommendations, these are really specific to a project we are doing where we are working with a bus manufacturer. And transit agency. Another problem with certain wheelchair seating positions, the wheelchair users were rolling over people's feet. L uckily they weren't real people. B ut they were. And there wasn't enough aisle width to get by with a securement location where you had to actually pass by it. We found people with walking aids had difficulty sitting in a forward

- facing seat. T h ere wasn't enough width to get in. A nd also had trouble getting down the aisle.Without squeezing through.

We found visually impaired people had trouble finding stanchions and handholds, you can see this in the person's photograph bumping into it. A nd t he seats, the seats that flip up were difficult for people to find out how to do that. There was no way to know where they had to use the

-- there is a latch release and there was really no way to see it. A nd so that was a problem. These are just some r ecommendations. T he force of opening the latch was difficult. I t was too hard. A nd there was not enough leg room for in the forward

- facing seats for the walking aid users and visually impaired people. G etting up from the seat in the longitudinal seatin g was also a problem. S o, the reason why I showed you this bus simulation work we can simulate rail cars as well. We can just mockup a

-- if there are things that need to be studied, that is fairly easy for us to set up the

-- set up a simulation to do s omething. I think it's valuable because some of the things that we found I didn't get into all of the findings were things found in the field if simulations had been done before the technologies were launched into the marketplace that would have solved th at would have addressed the problems that we found before they were implemented. A nd I think in developingstandards that might be in existence or 30, 40 years it

would behoove us to test things that we are not sure of effectively to make sure they were e ffective. >> BILLY ALTOM: Awesome. T hank you, Ed. We have time for maybe a couple of questions, if anybody has anything. >> I just have one comment we talked at an earlier meeting about space particularly lavatories bathrooms on board and possibly doing innovative things with the lavatory in conjunction with the water closet and proximity and different grab bars might sit. B ecause of the very tight confines of a rail car, and wanted to go provide as much maneuverability within a lavatory as possible, I t hink we should consider some innovative approaches while you probably using a lot of this information and including especially the maneuverability portion where we can it will be most useful, I think. >> CHRISTOPHER HART: Ed, you can corral DOT to help fun d that? (LAUGHTER) >> No. >> CHRISTOPHER HART: Speaking for (inaudible) and David the board research budget is basically consumed by OMB regulatory assessments. S o, funding research goingforward is a significant challenge for us. S o, it's going to

require some cross agency cooperation. I have a question but

-- if you have questions we need to move on. >> UWE RUTENBERG: I just want to add to what Ed mention we came to the same problem in terms of dimensions. O ne of the things which is very important when we are dealing with scooters especially with four

-wheeled scooters they might still fit into the kind of common footprint of 30 by 48 but the turning radius can be tremendously large so even if you get somebody on board let's say into the train vestib ule the turning radius is such that you are not able to get there to the interior of the car. A nd the longer the scooters become we are seeing trends more and more people are using the scooters especially when the baby boomers are coming along they are lo sing their driver's license and the next step is a scooter to have some kind of a mobility we will see tremendous amount of scooters coming into the environment and probably wanting to have access to public transportation as well. >> BILLY ALTOM: Perfect. All righty. I n the interest of time, we have to keep moving on. I want to thank you very much Ed. T hank you for that presentation appreciateit. (APPLAUSE)

>> BILLY ALTOM: Up next a presentation from Amtrak on our gap mitigation and elimination program turn it over to Gary Talbot at the moment let me get you up here Gary.
>> Gary Talbot: T hank you. T hank you, Mr. Chair. Gary Talbot, Amtrak. I am going to speak for a couple of seconds. F irst of all, thank you so much to the advisory committee to allow us to come mere. Today we have our contractor from the Detroit Metro area, they are going to go through a brief presentation on our gap program we have a couple of the bridgeplates we tested yesterday, thank you to everybody who participated yes terday, those are in the back of the room if you get a second. A s soon as we get through the presentation that Chris will do, we have just a couple of video clips about a minute a piece. With that, I will turn it over to Chris and ask him to take us thro ugh the presentation. T hank you. >> Thank you very much Gary. T hank you very much for having us here today and allowing us the opportunity to talk about our work with Amtrak on the gap mitigation program. R LE International is a research design and engin eering development firm, we specialize in transportation related items. We are located in the MetroDetroit area. T his is a bit of a wordy slide. T he current

situation, the problem now is that there are locations where the right

- of

-way is not publicly owned, not by Amtrak, by a Title III entity, which we refer to as a host railroad. A nd the passenger traffic is run through there with Amtrak. A nd they currently only have the ability or only want any platform to be 8 inches above top of rail. When you h ave trains that need 48

- inch platform we end up with significant issues and getting people in mobility devices up into the train. S o, to alleviate that problem, we have come up with a setback platform solution that's going to be setback 9 feet from the ce nter track of the rail. And there would be approximately a 48

- inch gap between the edge

-- between the edge of the platform

-- further back when you get close it shuts off. >> Okay. (LAUGHTER) >> Between the edge of the platform and the edge of the train floor. The current FRA regulations are that the platform can be at 5 feet 7 inches from the center line of track so that now we would end up with a gap of about 6 to 7 inches. A ll of the boarding areas are

-- you see the gap 6 to 7 inches sometimes th e height varies on the gap could be 7 inchesabove the platform or one or 2ness below the platform.

So, in these situations, we needed to come up with a solution that our host railroads the freight railroads would allow us to develop. So, basically what we are hoping

-- what we are developing are the setback platforms that are going to be setback 9 feet from the center line of the track. T hey will be undeployed part of the gap mitigating device. You will see a gap mitigating twice that will deploy from ce nter line of track and leave a 6 to 7 inch gap that will be mitigated with a bridgeplate similar to the ones you see in the back of the room today. T his allows us to respot the train if need be. S o, we had to get the train on to more than two doors let's say of an Amfleet car on to this platform, we would be able to respot the train with the gap. >> (inaudible) >> Chris: We can move the train with this deployed, we wouldn't have to retract it. >> Janice: D oes that device require it always to have assist ance
-- sorry. D oes that device require people to always have a have assistance being able to use

-- to do it themselves?
>> The device will be deployed by train conductor he will be able to

-- the person in the mobility device will beable.

>> THOMAS COR FMAN: Get on the platform without

-- >> Janice: B ut they need somebody then

-- it's not like they press the button themselves and they get on.
>> No. T here must be a train present and

-- >> Janice: I understand the train is present, that I understand. What I am saying is, is there a way of making the device so you don't need someone to help you so you don't always need assistance. >> (inaudible) >> Well, I think when we get through this you will understand better. I t's not

-- it's more of a safety
conc ern of the railroad, there will always be a conductor at the road and the conductor has to facilitate the boarding and alighting of all passengers, as we go through it, you may answer some questions. T he program objectives were to full till all of the spe cifications in a very detailed design requirement specification sheet. S o, basically of I think more than of a year's worth of research was done Gary and folks at Amtrak and government affairs. We are going to deliver the self contained gap mitigating
so lutions. T hese the systems will be integrated into newly built stations. N ow due to Amtrak level boarding policies these devices are required at all of the stationswith ridership greater than 7500 passengers were year

where Amtrak has a sole or shared A DA obligation. Currently there are 202 of those stations in the system. And when we developed the devices, we developed these devices so that there is something that anyone could use or anyone would want to use. A nyone who wants to board a train without climbing upstairs or trying to get a baby stroller through or something like that would board this way. A lso, we put a very high amount of concern into the safety and cost and durability, we are looking at lifetime use 30 years without any major maintenan ce on the systems. In addition, we are developing and designing state of the article bridgeplates and ramp solutions for the bi

- level cars these are going to be carbon fiber construction, composite construction, and that's what you see in the back of the r oom today. We have been working I think we had a successful workshop working with Amtrak crews and community advocates and some users to test these devices out. W hat we are looking at now is a timing slide of the entire program. A nd what you see is the t iming where we started in the middle of November of last year on this program and about 22 weeks have elapsed. T he releasephase is scheduled end of September this year we will

have two technical demonstrators with fully functioning components. We move i nto a preliminary design phase and detailed design phase. R ight now we would be set to install 10 of these in the field as pre

- production prototypes towards the end of March 2017 we are going to compress the time and get them into the field towards the
en d of June 2016. T here is rigorous validation testing and development process that we are going through to ensure these products are ready for everyone to use. So, what the current proposed use of these devices, you would see here we have this setback plat form with a gap mitigating device in the middle. Atrain pulls into the station when it pulls into the station a conductor make sure the platform is clear in addition there is a radar system and sonic detection to make sure nobody is on the platform when deployed through mobile device that they use, they will hit the deploy button once they do that, they will be able to open the gates and allow anybody to boar through this device they need to put a bridgeplate down to mitigate the last 6 or 7 inches. Yes, ma'am? >> So, my question I guess it comes back to what she asks too what happens when there is no

-- I'm sorry. Iguess it goes back to her question as well. W hat happens

when there is no staff available. A nd I am asking this question for a reason. I twice recently went to get an Amtrak train at 3:15 a.m. and the staff at Union Station told me I shouldn't be trying to get any kind of accessible assistance any assistance on that train because they don't have anybody to do any kind of pre

- boarding or
ass istance until after 5 a.m. what happens to somebody who needs to get 3:15 train as an example? >> Gary Talbot: H i there, Gary Talbot, if I could answer that. T his device is a device that everybody would use. And if you don't have station side crews, the n the on board train crew would actuate the device and allow you to board and alight. T his wouldn't be a pre

- boarding type of a thing it

-- it's a boarding instrument, a boarding solution for everybody to use. T rain pulls up, the conductor hits the butto n if there is station side crews they could pre
- deploy this before the train rolls in because this is set at a distance that allows the train to pass by at the same distance you have for like Washington Union Station level boarding platforms it's the same thing. >> CHRISTOPHER HART: Just to remind you, if people have problems, it's important to file your complaints. Because otherwise, the operator and DOT have no recordof the issues.

>> BILLY ALTOM: If it's not written down, it didn't happen.
>> Don't wor ry. I file complaints on my various issues, no issue. S o, if I understand this correctly, every person who is getting on the train is using this it's not like the person in the wheelchair is having special device. >> Chris Hart: Well, they have the opti on of whether to board from a different door or not. B ut it's likely that once they see that you are able to board through a level boarding device the transportation of Amtrak has indicated more likely people will want to board this way.
>> It's not like something special that distinguishes you from everybody else on the train >> Chris Hart: T hat was one of the reasons we chose this design because it looks like a platform.
>> Okay, perfect. >> Once everyone has boarded the train or alighted the conductor is able to take a look out the door and make sure the gates are closed the sense sores on the system would turn green letting him know everything was good. He retracts the platform the same way through a mobile device. A nd the train could be on its way i n the event the procedure is not properly followed there are fall backsystems where it's pulled back automatically. I f there is

no power at the station or something happens, this is designed to be deployed manually, I think there is some people in the ro om have actually deployed our mockup manually it's very simple to do very quick and easy to do. >> UWE RUTENBERG: I have a question. I s this a concept or have you built something like this?
>> We built something. >> UWE RUTENBERG: In Northern part region s of the country, you could have like, I don't know minus 20 degrees. A nd ice buildup on the platform, is it still working? >> We haven't done all of the environmental testing yet. These will be heating testing geothermal or electric right now all of the components are rated for minus 40C and plus 45C. 1 20. When we go to construct the new setback platforms,
we
-- once the ground is prepared and the site is prepped we are going to go to a modular type system. We are going to develop probably a steel supe rstructure clad in pre
- pressed concrete. T his is going to be modular. T he gap mitigation device will be shop built they going to be deployed on a train or semi trailer. P ut down in a crane plugged in calibrated and ready to go. T he same devicewill wor k in a 48 inch platform and 15

- inch platform it's

one device. O nce we have the superstructure down it's clad in concrete. T he gap mitigation device is installed. A walkway is installed right behind it. A nd you have a setback platform ready for use at a shared use track station. T his is a rendering of what we think these may end up looking like.
>> That looks like everybody is entering one door. >> Well, these

-- the gap mitigating device, the shuttle platform is only 20 feet in length. S o, most of the

-- most of the passenger rail traffic coming through there are going to be Amfleet 1's and 2's correct? We would get to two doors. >> Gary Talbot: I f I could answer the question for the 48

- inch equipment, we envisioning we designed it so we can board an d alight two doors of doo cars the two end are accessible doors of two cars on the 15

- inch equipment one door per car and the train set can be respot if necessary. We are envisioning

-- we are showing a quick video clip of the mockup hardware, the top of it is all clad in concrete with the steel superstructure. E arly mockup 10

- foot long section in production it will be twice that length. A nd we have two simulated car bodies adjacent to it now that we built just for testing. We will play this acouple of times and then I have a second clip that will just

show the manual feature that several of the folks here have already been able to use. >> I mean, it's a matter of time to deploy and into the field and everything but once these are up and operational
we think that, you know, it may beneficial to have multiple ones out there again, it's a decision for the customer to make.
>> There is no way to make the whole platform move out like that? >> There are always ways but there would be a lot of complication and cost that wouldn't be necessary.
>> These are 20

- foot

- long sections that will translate over almost four foot like Chris said to the car side so you that you can board and alight. We are showing a quick video clip of Rob just cranking the platform in it has a hand crank with 5 pound force of effort required to deploy that. I t's real simple to do real quick it takes 10 seconds in the automated mode to run the platform out. A bout 10 seconds to retract it. You can put as many of these as you would want on a thousand

- foot long platform is that was the case. We envision putting one per platform until we get the system deployed and as we do further testing we can do additional if we choose.>> My concern is making things use special people

don't want to use things special for the special needs person. >> We were sensitive to that.
>> This, to me, looks like special needs versus everybody having universal access. I guess what I am trying to understand is it seems like a great concept, why can't you make the w hole thing, I understand it's a cost issue, it seems to me why can't the whole

-- if there is a gap, aren't you going to have people who are walking on full length of the gap or am I not

-- on the rest of the station >> If I could comment on that, please. You don't want to slide the platform out on a setback platform where you don't have a door. T hese are 75 foot in length that's how long the platforms are and the section is 20 foot long that slides over to the train. You can do multiples of that if we
c hoose to do so. I t's not a special thing, as a matter of fact we had many comments from the community people with disabilities were thrilled for the first time it wasn't a special boarding and alighting thing it was just a great way to get on and off the train that's what we were developing. If I could go I know I have another question. L inda, I'm sorry, I didn't see you.>> LINDA MARTIN: I just have a comment, which is, this

is not a replacement for level boarding this is where level boarding is not req uired. Level boarding platforms are required where they are required this is where they are not. W here Amtrak is seeking to do something beyond the 8 inch platform. S o that's real important. A lso, the other point is that platform device is not the

-- I mean the Access Board people can point this out but it's not really the purview of this committee because it's a station

- based device but I think they just wanted to show it to folks to give you an idea. >> CHRISTOPHER HART: One, just to be clear, right n ow it's the

-- the equipment is a

-- for all of us who do actually want to use the train, the last thing that we want to board with is a mobile lift. S econd to the last thing we want to board with is a car

- borne lift because

-- because going up and down h as much more mechanical failure points than something like a transfer table where you can really move a million pounds on a transfer table. I t's being used all over the world in all kinds of heavy industry, so, I think for

-- we were asked to come look at this given the option of a mobile lift or a car base lift versus this, this was the hands down winner. >> Blair Slaughter, Amtrak. J ust to add to what Garysaid, a lot of us in the room think about what happens

with the train or transit in terms of where we are in the northeast. A nd when you get out into the woods as I say on Amtrak, there are a lot of places where

-- even in Richmond, Virginia, which is a fairly busy station everyone is held by the gate until it's time to go to the train. I f you go to other stations Fayetteville, North Carolina everyone is boarding the train in two places. You have this device where everybody is boarding. Everyone is going not to a special place but to the same place they are going anyway, but you have got something t hat lets everyone board the train arguably in a much safer fashion it doesn't, it doesn't segregate people and point out that there is something

-- some special activity going on it's just a better way all the way around to get people on the train regardle ss.
>> Janice: I guess what I don't understand is why would you not be required sometimes to not have level boarding but the other times you are if it's new construction you are required to have level boarding so is this being used in a way that to fix ol d

-- old stations? Or is this being used to get

-- when you do

-- when you do alteration to a station you have to make it level boarding. W hat

-- is this thing used

-- I am not sure if Iam

understanding

-- > > Level boarding is not required anywhere when you are altering or building a new platform. B ut where the track that goes by the platform is shared with freight you are not required to put in level boarding. S o, at those platforms an 8

- inch platform woul d be used for someone in a wheelchair that means a crank up lift currently or a
car
- borne lift those are the two options from 8

- inch platform currently this is an alternative to the lift where a level boarding platform is not required. A nd, also, the leve l boarding platform rule takes effect if you are altering or building a new platform existing platforms don't have to be retrofitted. S o, there is a lot of older platforms that will be 8 inches or less for a long time. >> Gary Talbot: I f I could add to t hat thank you very much to Blair and Linda for that. A gain, this is Gary Talbot. You know, this is something that we feel there is just so many locations where we could benefit based on high ridership where we can create setback level boarding at station s where otherwise there isn't a whole lot of other options it's going to be probably 50 years before we get in there and do something massive on the platform for the extra extra

-- the infrastructure or something like thatwhere this is something that coul d be added. A ny other

questions? Yes, sir. >> Hi, Frank Maldari, the 40

- foot length of the platform is the only part that's raised. S o, passengers can get on from in other cars that are adjacent to the platform right? >> Gary Talbot: C orrect. We are e nvisioning 75 foot long 9 foot back but 75 foot in length. W ithin that 75 foot most likely in the center of that you position this 20 foot mitigation device. T hen it's fully ramped 12 foot width ramp leading up to the platform at 15 and 48 and in the bac kside ramps coming down. >> I want to be clear. You can walk on to the other cars otherwise you have to build a platform hundreds of feet long not just 70 feet long.
>> Gary Talbot: To answer that two ways: I f you only had one of the guys per platform l et's say but the train was several hundred feet long everybody could walk up the tracks if they wanted to. At some stations where you have really, really high ridership we envision we could put multiples of that with continuous boarding level setback form deemploy them all at once retract them at once >> It's good. C hris pointed out if you have one there it's significantly better than what you had before. A nd I think it's great if you are able to improve things and youdon't necessarily

-- it doesn't have to be perfect it doesn't

have to be the whole train and the less mechanics involved to getting the person in the car, you know, with devices attached to the car and to the platform I think is great. At Long Island Railroad 15 years ago we decided to rai se the platform in diesel territory in anticipation of ADA. T he idea was most of our platforms are raised we will raise them all only have level boarding almost everywhere. Unfortunately you still have to deal with bridgeplates. And unfortunately, some areas you have to deal with curved platforms which make it even worse. B ut a manually operated ramp like you have on a high level platform. I got to believe is significantly better than anything else. A nd it's definitely a step in the right direction.
> > CHRISTOPHER HART: Can I

-- if I might just share. Out in Boston we found that your typical mobile lift added four to five minutes of down time for commuter rail or light rail application. N ow, for Amtrak, four or five

- minute stops isn't necessarily that bad. E xcept when you bring the mobile lifts 8 or 9 times down the plat form and then bring it 800 feet back when you are done. S o, now you just stopped the train 15 minutes. A nd you
-- they are calling and asking why is the

-- why is thetrain still t here at the station. A nd meanwhile everybody

is looking at out the window at Linda at me and Gil

-- at billy saying what the heck are you doing we are already four hours late. (LAUGHTER) >> LINDA MARTIN: Right. >> CHRISTOPHER HART: And now you just wa nt to get to the dining room car to get dinner.
>> Gary Talbot: I just really appreciate the support from my brother Chris on our effort to improve inter

- city rail transportation. (LAUGHTER) >> We are really excited. J im, please. >> JIM WEISMAN: I go t a question. T he 75 foot length that's just to accommodate people waiting? >> Yes, sir. J ust to make it more of integrated approach it's not

-- you know it's not the old, small, little platform someplace but rather a very large platform that's envisione d that anybody that wants to board and alight from there can. >> JIM WEISMAN: Just about the stigma for Janice sake. The wheelchair user is already in the wheelchair.
>> We can't hide >> JIM WEISMAN: He is identifiable. T he best he can dois minimize dwe ll time and individual stigma letting

everybody board together.
>> That's right that's it.
>> My issue is what Chris was saying, I didn't articulate it quickly, why are you taking so long, you are late, you are annoying us, get on the damn bus, it's irrita ting. I am saying how to make it so everybody is getting going through the same door. T he person is not

-- the rest of the people are not getting annoyed at the person in the wheelchair which further stigmatizes the person.
>> We tried to be very sensiti ve to that situation, I mean we have done our own research ridden the trains and saw the use of the station base mobile lift. We see the person that needs to use it as the last one getting on waiting in the cold and things like that this is something wher e it will be deployed. G enerally not all of the doors are open they are open where the conductor needs to open them. I t will be at these platforms so someone in mobility device will be able to board any time just like anyone else is. >> And just one last thing, so the folks in the room are aware, is this under patent? >> Yeah, this is patent pending. T he shuttle platforms, the ramps and the bridgeplates, yes. A mtrak owns the patents.>> Frank?

>> I just had a qui ck question. Rough order of magnitude how much does something like that cost on 75 foot platform, piece of equipment.
>> Gary Talbot: I f I could answer that. T his is Gary Talbot. You know, the cost estimates are so rough today that I would really hate to put down a number. We are really trying our best to

-- we believe the cost is going to be very reasonable especially when considered what like a full length level boarding platform or even a station base mobile lift with a hub and section to pour we th ink it's comparable. We don't have good cost numbers yet. A s Chris said, we are 22 weeks into roughly a 36

- month process. We are hoping to take some of that time out and hopefully in about two years time will have the first prototype out. At the end of the detail design phase post DDR we have 10 technical

-- excuse me, 10 production and 10 prototypes built and installed that will give us a wonderful opportunity then to bring the information in at a later date. >> It does do a really good job of minimizi ng dwell time I see that and allowing other passengers to get on parallel is not slowing anybody down it's really a good idea you have there.>> Thank you very much. I f I could close with we

brought three of the bridgeplates from yesterday. Again, thank you to everybody. A mtrak had a private train yesterday that went from Washington, DC stopped at Baltimore and Wilmington and Philadelphia, we got crew feedback on our prototype bridgeplates, it's really mockups not prototypes yet and we had end user feedb ack at four stations. Everybody pitched in and pulled a whole bunch of folks for us so we could evaluate where we are at on the design and give us ideas for changing and really appreciate that we have one with handrails, so you might want to look at that for some of the units on a curve. We have the same problem today where the built environment already has that thank you so much to the committee. T hank you. >> BILLY ALTOM: Thank you Chris for the presentation. Give them a hand. (APPLAUSE) >> BILLY ALTOM: What I need to do next public comment? A nybody had anything that they wanted to say for public comment? A nd anybody on the conference call line that would like to make a comment? H earing and seeing nothing. I t is time for us to take a break and what we will do Paul would you like to tell folks what we aregoing to do. We are going to do a committee meeting

and where.
>> PAUL BEATTY: Per agenda the next thing is the subcommittee meeting on communications for those that desire to participate in t hat for those that are not participating, if there is anything of value take it with you. If you don't care about its value Lee it here for tomorrow. Remember we have two subcommittee member meetings onboard circulation seating in the morning and boardin g alighting in the afternoon after you adjourn now there is no further meeting of the full committee. T he subcommittee meetings are voluntary so that's all I have. >> BILLY ALTOM: That was it for me.
>> PAUL BEATTY: So, Terry, when do you want them back for the communication subcommittee meeting? 4 o'clock. O kay. S o those in the communication subcommittee 4 o'clock will be your start time. >> BILLY ALTOM: Awesome.
>> PAUL BEATTY: Subcommittee meeting as well as other subcommittee meetings will be occu rring here in the
room. [End of RVAAC Meeting]