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U.S. ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION AGENCY

PUBLIC HEARINGS

REGARDING EPA OBJECTIONS TO 36 DRAFT NPDES PERMITS

FOR DISCHARGES ASSOCIATED WITH COAL MINING 

______________________________________________________

Transcript of Public Hearing held on

June 7, 2012, commencing at 12 noon

Eastern Kentucky Exposition Center

126 Main Street

Pikeville, Kentucky

Lisa M. Schwarze, RPR, KyCCR

Registered Professional Reporter
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MS. MacPHERSON: Welcome everyone. My 

name is Charlie MacPherson, and I'm going to be 

the facilitator for this afternoon's hearing. My 

job today is to try to get as many people to share 

their comments and to maintain a safe and secure 

environment for all of us. So to help achieve 

those objectives, I just want to review a couple 

of the ground rules. Everyone should have 

received or picked up an agenda that are on the 

back tables or as you came in. If you don't have 

one, you may want to get one in the back. It has 

the ground rules on it. 

The first thing we want to do is just make 

sure we show courtesy to all the speakers and 

minimize any disruptions. All that's going to do 

is slow down the process and we may not be able to 

hear from everyone today. Also, for the speakers 

we have set time limits; again, just so we can 

hear from as many people as possible. And please 

adhere to those time limits. We will be having a 

clock up on the screen to help you with that, so 

you shouldn't have any trouble there. 

Also, if you have any cell phones or pagers, 

if you could please turn those to vibrate or off. 

And if you will be having any conversations or 
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need to make a call, please go outside of the 

hearing area; again, just as a courtesy for 

speakers. 

As you can see, to my left we do have sign 

language interpreters today for anyone who may 

need that service. I don't think, as far as I 

know, that there is anyone that needs it. But if 

there is, could you please stand up so we can make 

sure that you are close to the stage. Okay, I 

don't see anyone. But we will keep them for the 

first part of the hearing just to make sure we 

have that covered. 

Also on your agenda, on the back side is a 

form that you can use to submit any written 

comments you have today. You can leave those 

comments out by the registration table. I want 

everyone to know that these comments as well as 

your oral statements today or any other materials 

that you submit will be made part of the 

administrative record. We will also be making a 

full transcript of today's hearing. So that if 

you are speaking, please speak very clearly so the 

court reporter can capture all of that 

information. 

We will be calling the speakers in groups, in 
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blocks of 10 to 20. And when I call your number, 

I'd like you to go to the back area, near the 

entrance where you came in, where you'll meet with 

our facilitation staff and they'll just give you a 

briefing on the process for making statements. 

So at this time, I would like the first block 

of 1 to 20. And you should have, if you have 

signed up to speak, you should have a blue form. 

And even if you signed up on-line to speak, at the 

registration table you should have picked up a 

blue form. Okay, so those with numbers 1 through 

20. Please go to the back right of the room, to 

the person holding up the 1 and 2 sign. And I'll 

be giving more instructions when it is time to 

make the oral statements, just to be clear to 

everyone. 

But at this time, I would like to turn it 

over to Mr. Jim Giattina, who is the presiding 

officer for this hearing. 

MR. GIATTINA: Thank you, Charlie. Good 

afternoon. I'm Jim Giattina. I'm Director of the 

Water Protection Division for the 

U.S. Environmental Protection Agency's regional 

office in Atlanta, Georgia. The EPA's Regional 

Administrator has designated me to conduct this 
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public hearing. I have with me this evening 

Mr. Mark Nuhfer, who is chief of our municipal and 

industrial permit section. And I certainly want 

to thank the City of -- of -- of -- 

AUDIENCE MEMBERS: Pikeville.

MR. GIATTINA: Pikeville. Thank you. For 

their -- I should probably use my glasses. 

The City of Pikeville for their hospitality 

in allowing us to conduct this hearing. 

Let me start by thanking you for taking the 

time to be here this afternoon. We recognize that 

coal mining operations are critically important in 

Kentucky and for meeting our energy needs as a 

nation. We recognize that many of you are worried 

about jobs. We also know that you are concerned 

about the impacts mining may have on your health 

and environment. The purpose of this hearing is 

to listen to your concerns, especially as they 

relate to the 36 permits the EPA has objected to 

that are the subject of this hearing. 

I want to note that EPA and the Kentucky 

Energy and Environment Cabinet have been working 

over the past two years to identify a set of 

common sense practices and appropriate permit 

conditions that we believe will protect and 
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improve water quality while addressing the 

industry's concern for clarity and cost 

effectiveness. Most of these practices have been 

developed by experts here in Kentucky and are 

beginning to be implemented at local mines. For 

example, some mining companies are redesigning 

mines to reduce the number, size, and location of 

fills. They are more carefully monitoring 

pollution levels of instream biology at their 

mines and using realtime adaptive management 

techniques to prevent problems downstream. They 

are beginning to find, target, and isolate 

specific sources of pollutants to keep them away 

from the water. And this is the kind of 

innovation and care that will help ensure coal 

mining remains a vibrant part of the local 

economy. 

Our desire at EPA is for the Commonwealth to 

move forward and issue permits that require these 

kinds of innovative approaches and that have 

appropriate pollutant limits to protect water 

quality. Let me briefly give you some additional 

background information that is important for you 

to understand as you make your oral or written 

comments. The permits we are discussing are water 
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discharge permits, known as National Pollutant 

Discharge Elimination System, or NPDES, permits. 

These are required by the Clean Water Act. An 

NPDES permit is the basic tool for controlling 

water pollution, and it contains conditions and 

limitations to protect water quality and its many 

uses, such as fishing, swimming, canoeing, and as 

a source of drinking water. The Clean Water Act 

requires that NPDES permits include pollutant 

limits stringent enough to ensure that discharges 

do not cause violations of the Commonwealth's own 

water quality standards. 

As part of the permitting process, Kentucky 

provides copies of draft NPDES permits for EPA -- 

to EPA for our review. And since August of 2009, 

based on information provided by the Kentucky 

Division of Water, the Division has issued 

individual NPDES permits for approximately 87 

surface mining projects and 28 underground mines 

or coal preparation plants. Additionally, the 

Division has allowed approximately 2,500 new and 

existing coal mining projects to proceed under its 

general permit authority. Over the past two 

years, the EPA has objected to the issuance of a 

number of permits drafted by the Division, 36 of 
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which remain and are the subject of this hearing. 

While the majority of mining projects that 

need NPDES permits in Kentucky have received 

authorization to go forward, the EPA remains 

concerned with mining discharges. In 2010, the 

Kentucky Division of Water estimated that at least 

1,522 miles of Kentucky's rivers and streams are 

threatened or impaired due to mining. Recent 

studies, as well as the experience of coalfield 

communities, point to new environmental challenges 

largely unknown even 10 years ago. Sediment, 

salts, and metals that runoff from poor mining 

practices can destroy the habitat that sustains 

fish and other forms of aquatic life in eastern 

Kentucky waterways. They threaten sources of 

drinking water and can affect the quality of life 

for the people of this region. Our objections to 

these 36 draft permits are based on the same 

fundamental concern, that permits must be strong 

enough to control pollution from these mines, 

pollution that can harm human life and aquatic 

life. 

So this afternoon we are here to listen to 

the concerns you have about these permits. In 

particular, it is important that we receive any 
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specific information you have with regard to these 

mines and the waters they discharge to. 

Now, I know we are limited in how many people 

can speak today. I encourage everyone who is 

interested in contributing comments and unable to 

speak tonight to do so in writing. And the 

contact information is provided at the table in 

the back. The public comment period will close on 

June 21st. I want to emphasize at this point that 

no final decisions have been made. After 

considering all of the comments, the data and 

information received on the permit objections, 

EPA's Regional Administrator in Atlanta will make 

a decision to reaffirm, modify, or withdraw each 

of the original objections. Once these decisions 

have been made, we will notify the Kentucky 

Division of Water, each of the permit applicants, 

and all of those who have registered and provided 

a mailing address. Our decisions will also be 

posted on EPA's website. 

If we withdraw any objections, the Kentucky 

Division of Water will be able to move forward and 

issue those permits. If we reaffirm or modify any 

objections, the Division of Water can send us 

revised draft permits within 30 days that address 
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our concerns. If for some reason we cannot reach 

agreement with the Division, then EPA will issue a 

permit for those particular mines. However, as I 

said earlier, I am hopeful that we will be 

successful in reaching agreement on these permits 

and that the State can move forward with issuing 

them. So this is our opportunity to hear directly 

from you. 

I want to thank you again for being here and 

for participating in this process. And at this 

time, I'll turn it back to Charlie, who will 

facilitate the remainder of the hearing. Thank 

you. 

MS. MacPHERSON: Thanks, Jim. I just want to 

remind, if anyone has a speaker number 1 through 

20, at this time you should go in the back of the 

room. Can you free yourself from the tape there? 

Just rip it off. That's okay. Terrific. 

So at this time, I would like to introduce 

Secretary Peters of the Kentucky Energy and 

Environment Cabinet to make opening remarks, who 

will be followed by Commissioner Bruce Scott of 

the Kentucky Department for Environmental 

Protection.

SECRETARY PETERS: Thank you very much, 
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Charlie. I appreciate it. Good afternoon. And 

it is always a pleasure to be in Pike County and 

in Pikeville. Okay, it is always a pleasure to be 

here. 

I am Len Peters, and I am Secretary of 

Kentucky's Energy and Environment Cabinet. And on 

behalf of Governor Steve Beshear, I want to thank 

Region 4 for conducting this hearing to receive 

comments on their objections to Clean Water Act 

permits for surface mining operations in eastern 

Kentucky. 

Today's hearing is unprecedented in Kentucky. 

Also unprecedented is the State feeling compelled 

by matters of principle to sue the U.S. EPA, which 

we did in 2010 because of what we deemed to be 

arbitrary and inconsistent application of policies 

governing mining operations. My comments today 

regarding EPA's objections to these permits, 

therefore, are consistent with the concerns we 

have expressed for more than two years now 

regarding this issue. 

As someone responsible for overseeing the 

State's environmental protection programs, I 

support and I am, in fact, obligated to enforce 

regulations necessary to protect our land, air, 
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and water resources. We can and must do all that 

is reasonably possible to protect our environment 

and the lives and health of our citizens. We have 

federal and state laws and regulations that not 

only guide this process but that bind us so that 

our decisions are not arbitrary, political, or 

otherwise without basis. Environmental permitting 

is not designed to stop legitimate business 

activities, whether we are talking about a mining 

activity, a manufacturing facility, or a water 

treatment plant. Rather, permitting is to ensure 

these activities are done in accordance with 

existing laws and regulations. Regulators and a 

regulated community need certainty in this 

process. In addition, regulators and a regulated 

community need to be assured the decisions are 

made fairly and reasonably based on accepted 

scientific studies and analysis. 

The Energy and Environment Cabinet and the 

U.S. EPA have an important partnership, and we 

share the same mission, to protect human health 

and the environment and to ensure environmental 

protection laws and regulations are implemented 

and enforced fairly and reasonably. Kentucky 

cannot simply reject surface mining permit 
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applications that are in accordance with existing 

laws and regulations. Despite the rhetoric from 

some, surface mining, including mountaintop 

removal mining, is a legal form of mining that 

occurs on privately-owned land. We follow the 

federal Surface Mining Control and Reclamation 

Act, the Clean Water Act, and other federal 

provisions in operating the Kentucky program. 

Coal can be and is being mined in an 

environmentally responsible manner. We continue 

to make improvements, and the industry has been 

willing to do things better. For example, the 

Beshear Administration initiated a novel approach 

to ensuring enhanced environmental protection of 

surface mining operations through a fill 

minimization protocol, a protocol that should have 

been embraced by the EPA but was not. 

All sources of energy production in use, even 

renewables, have an environmental impact. But 

existing laws and regulations are in place to 

minimize impacts and to reclaim mined land. That 

is why it is disconcerting to us that EPA has 

applied a specific benchmark, that is 

conductivity, to Appalachian coal mining, a 

de facto standard that has been based on what 
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should be very narrowly interpreted incomplete 

science, not one that should be a surrogate 

measure of overall water quality. 

I read an opinion piece in the paper this 

week that even misrepresents the facts by saying 

that conductivity is a measure of contamination. 

The EPA knows and I know that simply is not true, 

and yet many people do not know otherwise. 

Governor Beshear and I recognize and respect that 

EPA has a responsibility and obligation to revise 

and update regulations and program requirements as 

necessary to protect human health and the 

environment. However, EPA should not create new 

regulatory requirements that have not undergone 

the appropriate Congressional or rulemaking 

processes. As it is, the EPA is preventing 

through its objection process Kentucky, a 

delegated state, from issuing permits with no 

recourse for us or for the regulated community or 

for the thousands of Kentuckians who depend on 

mining for their livelihoods. We should not allow 

a few studies, studies that have credible 

counterpoints, to determine the economic destiny 

of one region of the country. We have allowed 

rhetoric and misinformation to overwhelm what 
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should be a legitimate discussion on very 

important issues, jobs, human health, the 

environment, and a rational application of 

administrative oversight. 

I will close by saying that I appreciate the 

efforts of the staff within Region 4. They worked 

closely with our Cabinet to arrive at a solution 

to move these permits forward. We were assured by 

headquarters that if we were to reach an 

agreement, which we did, that EPA would honor that 

agreement. Unfortunately, that ultimately was 

simply not the case. And many months later, we 

are still experiencing the consequences of 

headquarter's actions. Thank you for the 

opportunity to speak.

(Applause)

COMMISSIONER SCOTT: Good afternoon. My name 

is Bruce Scott. I am the Commissioner of the 

Kentucky Department for Environmental Protection. 

Thank you for the opportunity to provide comments 

today regarding the EPA's pending objections to 36 

draft KPDES permits for discharges associated with 

coal mining operations in eastern Kentucky. 

The Commonwealth of Kentucky has been 

delegated authority by U.S. EPA to administer the 
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NPDES program in Kentucky since 1983. Since 1983, 

there have been tens of thousands of NPDES permits 

proposed and issued by Kentucky for wastewater and 

storm water discharges across the Commonwealth, 

ranging from individual homes, to cities, to 

industries, and to coal mining operations. The 

Agency is aware of only one prior instance where 

an EPA permit objection of the Kentucky proposed 

draft of the NPDES permit may have occurred. That 

was approximately 25 years ago for an industrial 

operation. No previously proposed NPDES permit 

for a coal mining operation has ever previously 

been objected to. However, since April of 2010, 

the EPA has objected to approximately 40 proposed 

NPDES individual coal mining permits and has 

approved only one individual NPDES permit for a 

new or expanded surface mine operation in eastern 

Kentucky. 

Since receiving NPDES program delegation in 

1983, Kentucky has maintained conformance with 

federal EPA regulatory requirements. Simply 

stated, Kentucky's regulations and regulatory 

requirements are the same as the federal EPA 

regulations and regulatory requirements. With 

regard to the 36 permit objections subject to the 
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public hearing here today, it is noteworthy to 

point out that EPA has not made any changes to the 

federal NPDES regulations that are subject to 

these permits since April of 2010. In addition, 

there have been no changes to the applicable state 

or federal water quality standards that apply to 

Kentucky waters that are at issue in these permit 

objections here today since April of 2010. The 

question, therefore, must be asked: What changed? 

What state or federal regulation has changed that 

has resulted in these EPA objections since 

April of 2010? 

While that question remains pending, Kentucky 

has continued to work extensively with the EPA to 

address EPA's evolving comments and concerns that 

have been expressed over the past two plus years. 

Kentucky has provided numerous proposed draft 

permits, both formally and informally, consistent 

with existing state and federal regulations in an 

effort to resolve these objections. We remain 

committed and hopeful that resolution to these 

objections can and will be achieved. 

With respect to the EPA objections themselves 

that are a subject to this public hearing, the 

EPA's stated concerns primarily fall into two 
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categories. First, with respect to how the 

reasonable potential analysis, or RPA, was 

performed to determine whether the proposed 

discharges had a reasonable potential to cause or 

contribute to a violation of Kentucky's water 

quality standards. And, secondly, the 

establishment of permit requirements in accordance 

with determinations of that reasonable potential 

analysis. 

With respect to the first issue, Kentucky 

followed existing EPA-approved RPA procedures, 

regulations, and application requirements 

consistent with 40 CFR 122.44 and 122.21. 

Specifically, Kentucky evaluated available 

discharge data and/or requested discharge data 

where it was unavailable for a new discharge, as 

per existing regulatory requirements and 

permitting procedures. 

With respect to the second issue, Kentucky 

imposed a combination of chemical specific 

limitations and monitoring requirements, whole 

effluent toxicity limitations and monitoring 

requirements, best management practice 

requirements, and instream biological assessment 

requirements and limitations. In addition to 
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addressing the individual parameter RPA 

requirements, the narrative water quality standard 

for conductivity and total dissolved solids is met 

via the combination of these permit requirements, 

consistent with 40 CFR 122.44. In addition, the 

instream biological assessment requirements are 

designed to address the site specific nature of 

the receiving stream as specified in the narrative 

water quality standards cited in 401 KAR 10.031, 

Section 4(1)(f). 

In light of these facts, the state 

respectfully requests that EPA withdraw its permit 

objections. We look forward to continuing to work 

with EPA in our ongoing effort to bring resolution 

to these issues in a timely manner. Thank you 

again for the opportunity to provide these brief 

comments. We will be providing additional written 

comments on these objections before the close of 

the comment period. Thank you. 

(Applause)

MS. MacPHERSON: Thank you for the opening 

remarks. Now we would like to move on to 

receiving the public comments. And I know I've 

got the speakers 1 through 20. If the next group, 

21 to 30, could go to the back of the room, the 
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back right, to receive your instructions. Thank 

you. 

So as you come up to the microphone, please 

state your name -- first your number, your speaker 

number, then your name, spell your name, we are 

making a transcript, and your organization if you 

are representing any. Also, if you are referring 

to any specific permits, please let us know that 

as well. At that point, we will start the timer, 

which you will see up on the wall there. And you 

have two minutes to make your remarks. We will -- 

at the end of the two minutes, you'll see it 

flash. But, also, the microphone will gradually 

go silent so that we can move to the next speaker. 

Okay. So I think -- everyone understand? Great. 

So with that, I think we'll start with 

speaker number 1.

SPEAKER NO. 1: I am speaker number 1. My 

name is Donna McClure, M-c-C-l-u-r-e. And I am 

here on behalf of Kentucky's United States Senate 

Republican Leader, Mitch McConnell. And I will be 

reading a statement on his behalf, as he is in 

Washington and cannot be here. I will be making 

comments regarding the 36 permits. 

"Like most of the country, Kentucky is 
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suffering from very difficult economic times. Far 

too many Kentuckians are unemployed and the 

prospect for future employment remains daunting. 

It is especially irritating this Administration 

has blindly followed policies eliminating jobs in 

our communities. The people of Kentucky are 

amongst the hardest working people on earth. But 

how can we be expected to compete if our own 

government is working against us. Simply put, my 

constituents are under siege from the Obama 

Administration's regulatory agenda, and the EPA is 

the worst offender. These 36 objections are 

further proof of this siege. Perhaps the clearest 

example of this Administration's regulatory 

assault is its war on coal. 

Since being sworn in, President Obama's EPA 

has set out to circumvent the will of Congress and 

the American people by turning the already 

cumbersome mine permitting process into a backdoor 

means of shutting down coal mines. A former 

senior EPA official under the Obama Administration 

recently summed up the regulatory philosophy of 

the Agency with respect to those working in the 

coal business by saying it wants to crucify them. 

With this radical environmental anti-coal agenda, 
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it is no wonder the Administration has failed to 

answer the American people's call for greater 

domestic energy production. The real world impact 

of their fantasy world energy policy is people are 

losing their jobs and energy prices continue to 

increase. It is high time the Obama 

Administration stops treating the Kentucky coal 

industry as being part of the problem. Kentucky 

coal is the solution." 

(Applause)

PUBLIC SPEAKER: My name is James Milliman. 

I am the State Director -- M-i-l-l-i-m-a-n. I am 

the State Director for Senator Rand Paul. Senator 

Paul could not be here today, so he has filed a 

statement. And the reason he could not be here 

today, folks, he is in Washington, DC as we speak 

fighting the heavy-handed tactics of the EPA to 

protect your property rights. And he will 

continue to fight with every ounce and fiber of 

his body until we prevail over the EPA. 

And, Ladies and Gentlemen, look at these 

people out here. These are Kentuckians. You've 

heard of our most famous daughter of Kentucky, 

proud to be a coal miner's daughter, Loretta Lynn. 

These are the daughters and the sons, and they are 
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proud to be coal miners. They are proud to be 

children and grandchildren of the coal miners that 

provided energy for this state for years. For 

250 years they worked in those mines. They risked 

life, they risked black lung to fuel the energy of 

this country. And now what happens after 250 

years? We are here finally having a hearing on a 

permit. But can they trust the EPA? Should they 

have confidence in the EPA to give a fair hearing? 

I don't think so. Not when your leader, Barack 

Obama, says he wants to bankrupt the coal 

companies, when the Vice President says he wants 

to bankrupt the coal companies, when your own 

officials sit there and say they are going to 

treat coal companies like conquered nations of 

Rome, when the Romans came in and crucified them. 

Well, we've got news for you. These people, 

the good people of Kentucky and the coal miners, 

will not be conquered. (Applause). And there is 

help on the way. There is help on the way. The 

government has now faced defeat in the Supreme 

Court. Folks, the Sackett case said the 

government could try their heavy-handed tactics to 

take away the property rights of people were 

rejected in a unanimous Supreme Court. 
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And I am going to leave you with one last 

thing. Take this message back to Washington. 

Take this to the EPA. Take this to your 

President. It is a message our Founding Fathers 

gave 250 years ago to the tyrants of England, of 

King George. They said, "Don't tread on me." And 

these people are telling you, "Don't tread on me." 

They will not allow it. 

(Applause)

SPEAKER NO. 3: I am speaker number 3, 

Danielle Smoot, D-a-n-i-e-l-l-e S-m, "m" as in 

"mountain," o-o-t. And I'm the Communications 

Director for Congressman Hal Rogers. I would also 

like the record to reflect that the Congressman's 

new District Director, Chris Girdler, is here and 

his Field Representative, Pat Wootan. 

Congressman Rogers regrets being unable to 

join us here today, Ladies and Gentlemen. He is 

actually, of course, in Washington fighting this 

same exact fight on Capitol Hill. Congressman 

Rogers has grave concern about the Environmental 

Protection Agency's strangulating regulations on 

Appalachian coal. In fact, earlier this year he 

told EPA Administrator Lisa Jackson that the 

Agency's behavior is contemptible. 
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Time and again, the EPA has tried to bypass 

the Congress and weaken state authority. And they 

make no secret of this Administration's intentions 

to shutdown Kentucky coal. The permit process is 

now so complex that our coal operators are jumping 

through regulatory hoops trying to understand the 

constant shift in standards and rules that don't 

apply to everyone. What we do know, what we do 

know is very clear, is that only one 404 

individual permit has been approved for a new 

surface mining operation in Kentucky in three and 

a half years. And, folks, that is downright 

shameful. 

Congressman Rogers has made it clear that 

just because you are pro coal doesn't mean you are 

against the environment. He is the co-founder of 

the eastern Kentucky PRIDE organization that has 

invested environmental education in every school 

district in southern and eastern Kentucky, has 

inspired upwards of 33,000 volunteers to clean up 

our hillsides every April and remove nearly 30,000 

straight pipes from dumping sewage into our 

streams. In fact, some of PRIDE's most proud 

sponsors and volunteers are sitting right here 

with us today. They are our coal operators and 
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coal mining families. Whether you have taken 

notice or not, coal operators have made great 

strides in reducing their environmental footprint. 

The EPA, we do know, has a duty to protect 

the environment. No one is here today to ask for 

environmental laws to be eliminated. But we do 

expect them to be applied fairly and consistently 

so our coal mining families can build a business, 

start a family, or buy a home without fear of a 

pink slip because another permit is on hold. 

On behalf of all the mining men and women of 

southern and eastern Kentucky, Congressman Hal 

Rogers asks that the EPA overturn its objections 

to these permits. Thank you very much. 

(Applause)

PUBLIC SPEAKER: My name is W. Keith Hall. I 

am a member of the Kentucky House of 

Representatives, where I chair the Energy 

Committee. Thank you for being here today. We 

welcome you to Pike County. 

In Kentucky, Pike County is the largest 

producing county east of the Mississippi. I 

represent that county as a fourth generation coal 

miner. I'm in the coal business. I mine coal. I 

work in the coal industry. Kentucky coal miners 
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have supplied this Commonwealth and America for 

over 100 years with a reliable, dependable, 

economically cheap source of energy. The State of 

Kentucky regulates coal miners, coal operators, 

and coal companies alongside Federal Mine Safety 

Administration officials of MSHA and OSM, and we 

have had an excellent working relationship the 

last 50 years doing that. But in spite of the 

things that we do together regulating the 

industry, we have become the victim of one of the 

most devious and sinister attacks from the U.S. 

government. 

The EPA has pulled and withheld 36 permits 

from Kentucky. Once, some of those were even 

approved. What the EPA has done is wrong. It is 

unconstitutional. And I'll back that by saying a 

U.S. Judge, Amy Berman Jackson, has ordered EPA to 

vacate its actions against Kentucky on the grounds 

it has no authority nor no jurisdiction to do so. 

Judge Amy Jackson (applause) called the EPA's 

authority unreasonable, and I quote, and she 

pointed that the EPA has no power to revoke those 

36 Kentucky permits. Judge Jackson also said the 

EPA's interpretation of the law that they are 

basing their intrusive, overreaching actions on is 
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illogical and impractical. Judge Jackson rejects 

the EPA's broad view that it has unbounded 

authority to retroactively revoke permits issued 

by another agency. 

My question today is: Will the EPA shutdown 

an entire state's industry? And I pray not they 

will. And I am going to say one last thing, is 

that the EPA's actions are too intrusive. Thank 

you. 

(Applause)

SPEAKER NO. 7: I am speaker number 7. My 

name is Jim Ward, W-a-r-d. I'm the Letcher County 

Judge Executive. 

First I would like to point out that 

Section 402(D)3 of the Clean Water Act gives 

administrators of the EPA discretion in whether or 

not to review or object to permits issued by the 

Commonwealth of Kentucky. It is completely lawful 

for the EPA Administrator to exercise her 

discretion and decide not to review permits issued 

by the state. 

Secondly, economic and social costs are 

mentioned numerous times throughout the Clean 

Water Act, and the legislative history clearly 

indicates that Congress did not intend overly 
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stringent limitations to be applied to permits, 

especially if it would unduly impose economic and 

social hardship. Here are some of the examples of 

that hardship. 

Today there are over 70 senior citizens here 

from Letcher County and countless other seniors 

from other counties. Seniors, would you please 

stand up. (Audience members stand. Applause). 

Every month we serve 10,000 meals to seniors in my 

county, some of whom it is their only hot meal of 

the day and may be the only contact that they have 

with another person. Our county's budget is 

heavily reliant upon coal severance taxes to meet 

these services that our seniors depend upon. 

These economic and social costs don't bear a 

reasonable relationship to the benefits that are 

claimed by the EPA. I am also here today because 

I support the hard-working coal miners, whose jobs 

are not only to provide for their families but 

also for the families of the truck drivers and the 

salesmen and the repairmen who sell equipment and 

supplies, the teenager who works at the gas 

station that sells pickled bologna and Coke-Cola 

to the miners on their way to work. 

The objection to these permits not only puts 
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these hard-working coal miners out of a job, but 

puts essential services to seniors at risk, youth 

programs at risk that keep our kids out of trouble 

and off of drugs, and would handicap the county 

from meeting the needs of the people, a people 

that get dumped on all too often because some 

folks think we are backwards and ignorant. 

I'm here today, and these seniors and miners 

are here today, to demonstrate to the EPA that we 

believe in political self-determination. 

MS. MacPHERSON: Thank you. Thank you. 

Sorry. I know it is hard to get it all in in two 

minutes. 

(Applause)

MS. MacPHERSON: What I encourage everyone to 

do who has a statement, is please leave a written 

copy of it so we can make sure it all gets 

included as part of the transcript. Thank you. 

The next speaker.

PUBLIC SPEAKER: Ted Edmunds from Breathitt 

County, State Representative -- Democratic State 

Representative for the 91st District. 

I was in Frankfort Tuesday night. And since 

I was at those hearings Tuesday night in 

Frankfort, I decided to take a little bit of a 
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different approach in my comments today. The 

University of Kentucky owns a 15,000 acre tract of 

land known as the Robinson Forest. It has the 

single largest coal reserve east of the 

Mississippi River. They have mined coal in that 

Robinson Forest tract of property. 

And I would just like to share this with you. 

When the University of Kentucky, who is rapidly 

achieving, becoming one of the top 20 research 

institutions in this country, they are not going 

to be violating the law, they are not going to be 

doing things that are contrary to what the rules 

and the regulations are, they abide by the laws, 

and they have one of the best tracts of coal east 

of the Mississippi River. 

Today, this morning in the paper, the 

University of Kentucky had to layoff about 150 

employees. They need money. This is a source of 

income that they would probably like to depend on. 

I want to just assure you, you are dealing with 

people that are competent, that are capable, and 

are knowledgeable. They know what they are doing. 

Another comment that I am going to make is a 

stream that is on my grandfather's property, 

probably been there since the beginning of time, 
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the bedrock in that stream is a seam of coal. It 

probably has been that way since God created this 

earth. Unless something drastically changes, it 

will be that way. 

My last comment, I did not know I would see 

this gentleman, is a neighbor that drives two and 

a half hours every morning, gets up at 3:30 to 

work. He puts in a hard day at work, drives two 

and a half hours home. His wife and my wife walk 

every morning. She says he comes home and he goes 

to bed. He gets up tomorrow morning, he does it 

all over again. He is afraid he is not going to 

make it to retirement. Please help us. Thank 

you.

(Applause)

SPEAKER NO. 9: Number 9, Donovan Blackburn. 

I am the City Manager for the City of Pikeville. 

I'm here speaking on behalf of Mayor Frank 

Justice. 

"As the Mayor of Pikeville, I proudly cast a 

motion in the first vote to join the lawsuit 

against the EPA on behalf of the citizens I was 

elected to represent in order to preserve the 

quality of life and jobs. The City joined this 

suit with the Kentucky Coal Association and the 
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Commonwealth of Kentucky challenging the legal 

validity of the EPA's guidance, giving rise to the 

permit objection and litigation current pending in 

Washington, DC. 

I vow to continue this fight as long as I am 

a sworn representative of the good people of 

Pikeville in the coal fields in order to protect 

those rights that are being ignored by the EPA's 

actions. As a county seat, the largest county of 

coal producing, I am telling you that this is a 

way of life and it in turn gives us a better 

quality of life. Through generations of courage 

and hard work, coal miners have helped to supply 

the coal that has built this country, supplying 

coal to heat iron plants, fuel plants, and produce 

energy. Let us not turn our backs on those that 

have founded this country through unfair 

regulations. 

As the Mayor of Pikeville, who is also a coal 

operator, I know my community has benefitted with 

millions of dollars reinvested back into our 

community through the leadership of our 

legislators. In the past six years, the City of 

Pikeville has used coal severance dollars to 

provide safe drinking water and sewer services to 
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our residents. We have not harmed our rivers and 

streams, but have greatly improved them by 

cleaning up thousands of straight pipes that were 

formerly polluting them. Without coal mining and 

coal severance tax dollars creating these 

projects, it would have not been possible without 

placing the burden of debt on our people. Because 

of these objections of these permits, it is 

estimated more than $123 million in coal severance 

taxes have been lost. 

As a coal operator, I have personally felt 

the sting of our regulations. I recently had to 

stop operations of a coal mine because it no 

longer meets your regulations. I have found as an 

operator it is not only frustrating to deal with 

more stringent rules and regulations, but it is 

apparent that the intent is to put a squeeze on 

this industry. This week one of my lowest points 

as a coal operator was laying off one-third of my 

staff, the men that made their living through the 

sweat of their brow. To see the hurt and the fear 

in their eyes when I told them the news of their 

layoff was heartbreaking. To put a face on those 

that your regulations are directly impacting, you 

need to take a look at the eyes of those that you 
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are directly impacting. Thank you." 

(Applause)

PUBLIC SPEAKER: I'm Judge Rupert, County 

Judge Executive of Pike County, Kentucky. 

If we were a state, we would be 10th in the 

United States in coal production. I am here today 

to talk about the most valuable commodity that we 

have in America today, and that is our coal. 

Twenty-two percent of the reserve of coal in the 

world is in the United States of America. The 

Btu. We've got more coal that has got Btu than 

they've got oil in the Middle East. The 

scientific data that EPA is using is very 

questionable. You need to go back and take a look 

at your scientific data that you are using. Also, 

your timetables. For 20 years you have issued 

these permits. You come up and give six months. 

That is not time and not proper. You have a war 

on coal in America going on today, whether you 

realize it or not. You need to get real. 

The quality of life in America is at stake. 

Not only our quality of life here in central 

Appalachia, but the quality of life in the United 

States of America. The utility rates, you are 

going to push them out until Americans cannot keep 
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their lights on. They are going to make a 

decision of whether to get medicine, food or 

clothing or pay their utility bills. And, EPA, 

you are causing this. Coal is not the villain in 

this country. Coal is a hero. The industrial 

revolution, the greatest one in the history of 

this world, was the industrial revolution of 

America fueled by coal. And, yes, they are not 

the villain; they are the heros. You all have got 

to stop this war. 

In the 50s, our government had war against 

coal and they started importing foreign oil. We 

lived through that. We lived through that. 

Administrations come and go. Mrs. Jackson will be 

gone. Mr. Jewell [ph] will be gone. And, 

Mr. President, if you don't stop this war on coal 

in this country, you'll be gone. (Audience 

members stand. Applause). We need to balance our 

economy with our ecology. If you don't do that, 

America is in trouble. God bless. 

MS. MacPHERSON: Thank you. Thank you. 

Thank you very much. Okay. Next speaker. 

SPEAKER NO. 21: Yes, ma'am. I am number 21. 

My name is Carl Breeding, and I'm speaking on 

behalf of -- 
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MS. MacPHERSON: Excuse me. Yes, can you 

turn up his mic. 

SPEAKER NO. 21: I'm sorry.

MS. MacPHERSON: Thank you.

SPEAKER NO. 21: Okay. My name is Carl 

Breeding. It is C-a-r-l B-r-e-e-d-i-n-g. I'm 

speaking on behalf of the Kentucky Chemical 

Industry Council, which is part of the Kentucky 

Association of Manufacturers. The Chemical 

Industry Council is a statewide trade association 

representing chemical manufacturers in Kentucky. 

Kentucky's chemical manufacturers are heavily 

dependent upon low cost energy that is available 

largely because of the state's abundant coal 

resources. Low cost energy has been a primary 

factor in the decision of many of Kentucky's 

largest employers to locate their facilities in 

Kentucky and has allowed Kentucky to succeed in 

competing for new and expanded businesses. 

Unfortunately, EPA's objections to KPDES 

permits for new and expanded surface coal mining 

operations threatens to disrupt Kentucky's 

favorable energy supply status. The Chemical 

Industry Council is greatly concerned that the 

EPA's actions will result in a loss of 
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manufacturing capacity in Kentucky and a 

consequent loss of jobs at this critical moment. 

EPA's information of its new requirements for 

Clean Water Act permits for eastern Kentucky 

surface mines is wholly inappropriate. The 

requirements were imposed without any prior notice 

to the industry or to the state permit issuing 

authority and were effective immediately. 

Procedures that had been approved by EPA and used 

for decades in the issuance of Clean Water Act 

permits were not used, resulting in chaos. 

The impact of the EPA's inappropriate actions 

will be felt dramatically by Kentucky's 

manufacturing community, which recognizes that 

coal is a low cost energy source that will be in 

demand for years to come. We should be exploring 

ways to better utilize the energy source rather 

than hindering its use. Kentucky's manufacturers, 

their employers, their families, and Kentucky's 

economy will suffer if the EPA's objections stand. 

Thank you for the opportunity to speak today. 

(Applause)

MS. MacPHERSON: Thank you. Thank you. Now, 

before the next speaker I just want to see if 

there is anyone out there who needs the sign 
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language interpreter services, if you could stand. 

No, okay. Thank you. Please go ahead. 

SPEAKER NO. 22: I'm number 22, Lloyd Cress, 

C-r-e-s-s. And I'm speaking on behalf of the 

Kentucky Coal Association. 

The Kentucky Coal Association truly welcomes 

these hearings, which afford EPA an opportunity to 

right a terrible wrong done to the Kentucky coal 

mining industry, the miners, and their families, 

and the people of Kentucky who benefit so greatly 

from low cost energy. The wrong occurred on 

April 1st, 2010 when the EPA announced that new 

water quality requirements, effective immediately, 

would apply to the review of permits for new and 

expanded surface mining activities in eastern 

Kentucky. The new requirements replace procedures 

that EPA had approved and the Commonwealth of 

Kentucky had used for more than 20 years and as 

recently as two weeks before April 1st, 2010. 

The new requirements were imposed in a 

dictatorial fashion with no prior notice to the 

coal mining industry that would allow the 

companies to adjust their mining practices or 

their applications for Clean Water Act permits. 

The new permit requirements were imposed with no 
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notice to the Kentucky Division of Water, that had 

the responsibility for processing those 

applications. EPA's arrogant imposition of new 

requirements, effective immediately, has had a 

devastating effect on the surface mining industry 

that serves as a life of eastern Kentucky's 

economy. For more than two years, not a single 

individual permit was approved without EPA 

objection. A more unAmerican abuse of due process 

and basic respect for the rights of others can 

hardly be envisioned in this country that prides 

itself as a nation of laws and not of men. The 

harm inflicted on the eastern Kentucky economy has 

been prolonged by the failure to conduct the 

necessary hearings. In the meantime, projects 

have been abandoned, jobs have been lost, and 

people have suffered without any effort by EPA to 

fulfill its legal responsibilities. 

MS. MacPHERSON: Thank you. Excuse me.

(Applause)

MS. MacPHERSON: Thank you. And please make 

sure we get a written copy of that so we can make 

sure we capture. Because I don't think the court 

reporter, if it is not in the microphone, can 

capture it. So next speaker, please.
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SPEAKER NO. 23: Mike Hansel, H-a-n-s-e-l, as 

in Hansel & Gretel, number 23. 

In the EPA's official specific objection to 

these permits being discussed, one particular 

statement rings as quite odd to me. The statement 

in each of those stereotype letters reads, "EPA's 

objections consider in part the emerging science 

on the impacts of surface coal mining on water 

quality." Not mountaintop mining, but surface 

mining. A curious statement, indeed. Perhaps a 

look into this Administration's next step to 

complete the elimination of coal mining and coal 

jobs. 

This EPA at the direction of the White House 

is choosing to ignore any statement of science or 

fact that is not submitted by a left wing 

activist. They choose instead to rely on an 

opinion that has no scientific study or background 

so that this Administration can keep its campaign 

promise from 2008, a promise to make it so 

difficult to mine coal in the United States that 

companies will be forced to quit or go broke, just 

a statement that the left needed to launch their 

push of this agenda. 

The demographics tell the complete story 
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behind what is happening here today. Each person 

here should take a moment, look around and 

observe. As my grandmother would say, "It is as 

plain as the nose on your face." She would also 

say, "Ponder on that one for a while, and we will 

just see how smart you really are." 

The Administration would like for you to 

believe that this action is being taken to protect 

the public. I believe, however, it is not. It is 

totally about money and power. Step back and see 

who will profit from the loss of coal jobs and 

coal revenue. Check the ties to the emerging 

green industries and see what you come up with. 

When an industry is saddled with impossible 

standards, such as having any discharge from a 

permitted area being cleaner than that of drinking 

water, enough said. "It is as plain as the nose 

on your face, son." 

I'll end my comments by reminding this panel 

and those in the attendance with a few quotes from 

famous Americans they need to remember. Thomas 

Jefferson: "Were we directed from Washington when 

to sow and when to reap, we should soon want 

bread." Thomas Jefferson: "To compel a man to 

furnish funds for the propagation of ideas which 
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he believes and abhors, is sinful and tyrannical." 

And my last one, from a great scientist, is Albert 

Einstein. And he says, "Let us not think of what 

is. Let's think of what should be." Thank you.

(Applause)

MS. MacPHERSON: Okay. Before the next 

speaker, I would like to request the next block to 

go to the back. Speakers 31 to 40, if you could 

go to the back right of the room to get your 

briefing. Thank you. Go ahead. 

SPEAKER NO. 26: Hi. I'm number 26. My name 

is Ama Bowman Bentley. I'm with Appalachian State 

Analytical, a private environmental laboratory. 

I'm a life -- also a lifelong resident of Pike 

County, Kentucky. 

Where was the EPA 40, 50 years ago when 

mining was a true source of stream pollution? Do 

you realize that any treatment being done of the 

acid mine drainage left behind by the companies 

who mined many years ago and that are no longer in 

business is being treated by the coal companies 

that are in business today? Do you realize that 

the majority of the reclamation done on properties 

vascularized by the coal companies of the old era 

has been reclaimed and repaired by the coal 
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companies in this room today? Not by AML and not 

by the government. Shut these coal companies down 

by not issuing permits or by issuing permits that 

are not practical or affordable and who would 

treat and repair our mistakes of the past. 

Surface mining today without the current 

regulations provides a great source of much needed 

land and, of course, revenue for our region. I 

know that today the water quality is monitored 

closely. And in many cases, stream quality is 

actually improved by mining. Pollution and 

sediment control is a top priority of coal 

companies. Don't jeopardize an entire industry 

and hundreds of thousands of people's livelihood 

just because of a handful of misinformed people 

and by imposing regulations that are more 

stringent than drinking water standards. Why not 

concentrate on our region's true source of 

pollution, straight pipes, raw sewage. 

Now, you may want to know how I am qualified 

to make such a statement as to say sewage is our 

true source of pollution. I'm a lifelong resident 

of Pike County, Kentucky. I've managed an 

environmental laboratory for over 30 years, and I 

have seen a lot of pollution. I have traveled 
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these surface mines. I have traveled through our 

streets. I've analyzed the water. You want to 

save our streams? Take the money you are using to 

fight a problem that is already being addressed 

and put it in an area where it is needed. Thank 

you. 

(Applause)

SPEAKER NO. 25: I am number 25. I'm Charles 

George. I'm here to represent the Kentucky 

Chamber of Commerce. 

We are the state's largest business 

association with over 2,700 members representing 

over a half of Kentucky's work force, and many of 

that work force is right here in this room. We 

are extremely concerned that EPA's actions 

regarding Clean Water Act permits for new and 

expanding mining activities in Kentucky have a 

negative effect on our business climate and 

jeopardize our economic future. 

The Kentucky Chamber is troubled by the EPA's 

new water quality requirements on coal mining 

activities through the issuance of guidance, 

rather than notice and comment rulemaking, which 

is contrary to federal law. As a result of the 

EPA's failure to follow appropriate legal 
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procedures, the Agency has been forced to make 

significant revisions to its guidance as it has 

acquired additional information. Meanwhile, 

Kentucky's coal mining industry has been thrown 

into turmoil by EPA's objections to KPDES permits 

issued by the Kentucky Division of Water 

containing the same provisions previously approved 

by EPA. 

The EPA's administrative negligence on this 

issue poses a serious threat to Kentucky's 

economy. The effect of EPA's permit objections in 

September of 2011 alone could eliminate 3,800 jobs 

in the coal industry and more than $123 million in 

potential coal severance taxes. Although the 

direct effects of EPA's anti-coal policies are 

staggering, perhaps the greatest threat is posed 

by the increase in energy costs that will follow 

curtailment of coal production in this state. 

Kentucky's economy, particularly our strong 

manufacturing base, heavily relies on the 

availability of low cost energy generated by coal 

right here in Kentucky. 

The Kentucky Chamber urges the EPA to 

withdraw its pending objections to the KPDES 

permits and to work in a cooperative manner with 
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the Kentucky Division of Water to develop 

regulatory requirements that allow the mining of 

coal to continue right here in Kentucky. We must 

ensure prosperity and job growth in the future not 

only for the hard-working men and women in this 

room but for all Kentuckians. Thank you. 

(Applause)

MS. MacPHERSON: Okay. The next speaker, 

please. 

SPEAKER NO. 28: Yes. Number 28. Good 

afternoon. My name is Mark Porta. I live in 

Louisville, Kentucky. I am the Vice President of 

Eastern Operations for Whayne Supply Company. And 

I also represent our sister company, Walker 

Machinery in West Virginia. We are the 

Caterpillar mining construction equipment dealers 

in Kentucky, southern Indiana, West Virginia, and 

southern -- southeastern Ohio. These two 

companies employ over 2,000 men and women working 

out of 25 locations. Sixty percent of our 

revenues are generated from the sale of machines, 

parts, service to the coal industry. So the coal 

industry supports all of our employees and their 

families in four states. 

Next year Whayne Supply will celebrate 100 
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years of service to our customers. At a time when 

I should be excited about our future, I am full of 

concern and uncertainty because our future is 

bleak because of the regulatory ambush on the coal 

industry by the EPA. 

Changing the permitting requirements in April 

of 2010 has effectively strangled this industry to 

the breaking point. Why did you target only six 

states and then decide just West Virginia and 

Kentucky? Is this an environmental issue or a 

political issue? Why are your guidelines only 

directed at the coal industry? Why do dissolved 

solids and conductivity from coal mining affect 

aquatic systems more than from other activities of 

displaced or disturbed soil? Is this just the 

EPA's preview to stop all mining, all construction 

and agriculture, all of which disturb soil and not 

meet your conductivity guidelines? Why is the 

rest of the world growing their coal, generating 

electricity capacity at record levels while we are 

shutting ours down? 

To address worldwide demand, Caterpillar has 

expanded their mining equipment line. Normally, 

this would be an exciting time, as the expansion 

directly impacts our business. We should be 
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adding high paying jobs and building new 

facilities and be very excited about the future, 

but we are concerned about the uncertainty. 

The central Appalachia coal region suffers 

because Kentucky and West Virginia are under 

attack by unfair and questionable governance by 

the EPA, causing massive layoffs, mine shutdowns, 

downsizing, and company closures. I strongly 

encourage the EPA to withdraw its objections to 

these 36 permits. Thank you. 

(Applause)

PUBLIC SPEAKER: I'm speaking -- I'm speaking 

about permits, specific permits. 

MS. MacPHERSON: Okay.

PUBLIC SPEAKER: So if you can hold the 

clock. 

MS. MacPHERSON: Thank you. I appreciate 

that. 

PUBLIC SPEAKER: Because I did that Tuesday 

night, and I used up too much time on that.

MS. MacPHERSON: No, no. Yeah, take your 

time.

PUBLIC SPEAKER: Okay. My name is Don 

Gibson. I represent Arch Coal. And I have a 

permit that's on the list of 36. It is permit 
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8970448. The only thing that I have got to say 

about that is, it is 37 acres in a 254,000 acre 

watershed. You are wasting your time. You are 

wasting your money. Instead of spending money on 

these meetings and objections to permits such as 

that, I want to agree with what Ama said, what 

several other people have said here, get proactive 

about getting us some sewer in the watersheds in 

eastern Kentucky. That is where the health issues 

come from. We hear all of these false reports 

about the illness in the coal fields being caused 

by mountaintop removal. That's bull crap. The 

disease and the illness is caused by the crap that 

is in the streams from the straight pipes. So 

let's spend our money there and focus our efforts. 

One thing that I want to point out, Tuesday 

night in Frankfort we had 800 plus Arch employees 

there that bussed in and drove in for three hours 

to get there to hear their voice heard. Rest 

assured, in November their voice will be heard. 

My last point is to all the coal miners. And I 

want you to listen up to me. The EPA, and not 

these folks sitting on the stage, but the EPA in 

Washington, DC has set a real good example for us. 

They have changed the rules midstream. Come 
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November, we are going to be at a midpoint 

potentially of having a President maybe for 

another four years. Let's follow their lead. 

Let's make a change. Thank you. 

(Applause)

MS. MacPHERSON: Thank you. Just before we 

start, could I have the next group, and I believe 

we're up to numbers 91 to 100, go to the back. We 

do still have more slots available for speaking, 

so that if you would like to make a statement, 

please go back to the registration table to 

receive a number so we can get you in the queue. 

So let me just wait until these -- it looks 

like we're having a change. He had quite a 

support section there.

Okay. Next speaker, please go ahead. 

SPEAKER NO. 30: I'm speaker number 30. I'm 

James Milam. You people don't hold it against me 

for my -- but I am from West Virginia. We are 

over here in support of coal. (Applause). 

I'm the President of the Logan Coal Vendors 

Association, and we represent the spin-off jobs. 

We're the four or five jobs that is spinned off by 

every coal miner that is out there working. And 

we want to thank every one of the coal miners here 
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today for the jobs that we have. The one thing 

that the Coal Vendors wants to tell you today, we 

are the small and medium-sized businesses. And 

when I say that, if you listen to the President of 

the United States talk right now, he says, "What 

are we to do to stimulate the U.S. economy?" 

We've got to do something to drive jobs up. It 

takes the small and medium-sized businesses to 

drive the jobs up. 

Well, you know, we're an engine. We're 

called the economic engine for the United States. 

We are what makes the United States of America 

stand strong. Well, if you cut the fuel supply 

off to that engine, it is just like the vehicle 

that you drive every day, it is going to shutdown. 

If you shutdown the coal economy, you shutdown 

these coal operators and they decide to take their 

toys and go elsewhere and play, what happens to 

the economic engine here in the United States, it 

is going to quit running. You can't stimulate 

something that you take away. If you don't supply 

an energy source or a fuel source to that engine, 

it is going to shutdown. 

That is who we are. We're the spin-off jobs. 

We're the majority. The coal operators and the 
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coal miners, they're the minority. We're the 

hundreds of thousands of jobs that gets spinned 

off because of coal. We want you to issue these 

permits. We've got to have these permits. If you 

go out and buy a bottle of water in the store, it 

is dirtier than the water that you hold the 

standards for the coal miners to drop off. It is 

a hell of a lot dirtier. 

Don't cut off our fuel supply. That is what 

drives this economic engine. And you better get 

that in the President's hand. Like the man said 

before, we have got a voice in November and we're 

going to use it. Thank you. 

(Applause)

MS. MacPHERSON: Thank you. Okay. Next 

speaker, please. 

SPEAKER NO. 29: I am speaker number 29. 

My name is Jim Winkler. I'm Vice President of the 

Logan Coal Vendors Association. I also own 

American Hydraulics & Rebuild in Logan, West 

Virginia. I employ 31 people. They have 24 kids, 

got 18 grandkids. That's why I'm here today. 

Now, the biggest issue that we have is the 

fact that for every coal mining job that James 

says, there's six of us. We represent thousands 
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of people. Everybody from my community is scared 

to death for their jobs. And, plus, my men too. 

I have already got them cut back on hours. I've 

never had a layoff in the 32 years I've been in 

business. It is just strictly because of the EPA. 

I don't trust the EPA, I don't trust Lisa Jackson, 

and I will never trust them. 

We have a permit issued in Logan County, 

where Arch of West Virginia has got a permit that 

they took 10 years to get it, it was approved, we 

went to court, went through appeals court once the 

EPA rejected it, and they ruled in our favor. 

Well, just recently the EPA filed another lawsuit 

against them and are going to reject a permit. 

That is not fair. We're given a set of 

regulations in the mining industry. We meet those 

regulations. What the EPA does, they raise those 

standards. And then we have to try to meet them 

again. It is not a fair issue on our part. 

They're not thinking about the human beings that 

are affected by this and the fact that our 

communities, our coal communities, which have a 

lot of pride, are being hurt every day. 

We're going to stand together. We're going 

to be united. And we're going to fight the EPA 
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every step of the way. Please release these 

permits and let us go to work. Thank you. 

(Applause)

MS. MacPHERSON: Okay. Next speaker, please. 

SPEAKER NO. 32: I am number 32. My name is 

Matt Watson. I'm here on behalf of Appalachian 

Voices, a nonprofit group, and our thousands of 

members across the region. 

Its -- jobs are up since the EPA started its 

enhanced coordination procedures back in June 

2009. I mentioned that on Tuesday. And that is 

just a fact. Nobody is going to tell you that. 

But the number of jobs in Appalachia, mining jobs 

are up by 6 percent over that time period. 

Now, granted, there's a lot of layoffs that 

are just starting to happen. But that is for very 

different reasons, and everybody knows it. It is 

because natural gas prices have gotten so low that 

coal simply cannot compete. It is not even close. 

Coal has gone from half of our electricity 

production several months -- or several years ago 

to a third of our electricity production today. 

That is going to cost jobs. It is going to cost 

jobs all over the country. But that is not EPA's 

fault. It is not EPA's fault that the political 
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leaders and the business leaders in eastern 

Kentucky do not have the vision or the courage to 

try to diversify the economy and try to attract 

new industries to the region. That is what is 

required. To put it in perspective, though, what 

EPA's job -- EPA is responsible for making sure 

that people have a safe environment. And a 

business, an economy needs clean water and clean 

air and a safe environment in which to flourish. 

Here in Pike County, Kentucky, it was 

mentioned, the biggest coal producing county east 

of the Mississippi of 70,000 acres have been strip 

mined here over the -- over 5, 6, 7 decades. If 

that was good for the economy, the streets ought 

to be paved with gold, right, by now? Well, the 

life expectancy in Pike County is about what it is 

in Vietnam, El Salvador, and Iran. In the last 

decade, while life expectancy across the U.S. has 

gone up by a year, it is down by a year in Pike 

County. Every other stat across the board, 

socioeconomic, looks pretty bad. 

And so what we need is EPA to do its job and 

we can do ours.

MS. MacPHERSON: Okay. Thank you.

(Audience members respond)
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MS. MacPHERSON: Thank you. Please remember 

ground rules at the beginning, so courtesy. Every 

speaker gets the same opportunity. 

So the next speaker, please. 

SPEAKER NO. 31: I'm speaker number 31. My 

name is Erin Savage, S-a-v-a-g-e. I'm a water 

quality specialist with Appalachian Voices. 

I would like to thank the EPA for this chance 

to speak and to commend the EPA for fulfilling its 

obligation to oversee the protection of public 

waters in the United States, waters that belong to 

all of us. 

Since 2010, Appalachian Voices has brought 

cases against three of Kentucky's largest coal 

companies, ICG, Fraser Creek, and Nally & 

Hamilton, for nearly 36,000 violations of the 

Clean Water Act. These violations include 

falsified discharge monitoring reports as well as 

substantive permit limit violations. These 

violations were neither identified by the State of 

Kentucky nor were they adequately dealt with when 

the State was made aware of these problems. The 

State is clearly either unwilling or unable to 

properly enforce the Clean Water Act. Therefore, 

the EPA must intervene. 
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This hearing is not about disallowing mining 

in Kentucky. This hearing is solely about water 

pollution permits. Protecting our water quality 

is essential to the health of the residents and 

the ecosystems of eastern Kentucky. 

Valley fill permits for mountaintop removal 

damages streams. Our sensitive monitoring program 

has identified real water pollution problems, 

including streams with a pH between 3 and 4, 

maganese greater than 13 milligrams per liter, and 

iron greater than 60 milligrams per liter. 

Mountaintop removal has also been linked to health 

problems in people. People living near 

mountaintop removal are 50 percent more likely to 

die of cancer and 42 percent more likely to have 

children with birth defects. The EPA is not 

destroying coal jobs. Coal jobs in Appalachia 

have increased by 6 percent since 2009. The 

demand for coal is decreasing due to competition 

with natural gas. The real question is not 

whether coal will be mined in Kentucky, but, 

rather, which companies will be allowed to mine. 

Companies that respect the law or companies that 

break the law and disrespect the people of eastern 

Kentucky? 
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(Applause)

MS. MacPHERSON: Thank you. Thank you. 

Okay. Next speaker, please. 

SPEAKER NO. 34: I'm speaker number 34. My 

name is Gary Bentley. I'm here as just an 

everyday Appalachian citizen, Kentucky coal miner. 

And what I would like to get across is, here in 

Appalachia we do rely on the coal industry. Right 

now, without it we don't have any sort of economy 

to keep the area going. However, the Clean Water 

Act has been in effect since 1976. You have 

billion dollar companies who want to avoid doing 

what is right. I work for these companies. I 

rely on this every day as my income. However, we 

need to stand together as our coal miners and 

protect our industry. You take Friends of Coal, 

the Kentucky Coal Association, I've supported it 

for many years. However, now, with the recent 

layoffs, I would like to see these organizations 

come back and help our miners that are out of 

work. That is a question that all of the coal 

miners, everybody needs to ask: When are these 

corporations going to come back and support our 

area in other ways than mining coal? 

Granted, it is a wonderful economy, it is a 
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wonderful job with great benefits. I have a 

college education and can't do any better than 

working underground. I can't ask for a better 

job. However, I would like to see these 

corporations, these million dollar companies come 

back and show just a little bit of support for us 

when we're out of work. And that's all.

MS. MacPHERSON: Thank you. Thank you.

(Applause)

MS. MacPHERSON: Okay. Next speaker, please. 

SPEAKER NO. 33: I'm number 33. My name is 

Jennifer Lee, L-e-e. And I'm with the Harlan 

County Chamber of Commerce. 

For decades, this region has provided the 

resources necessary to provide energy to our 

country. We've built our local economies on this 

foundation and dedicated our lives to providing 

coal to our nation. Harlan County needs the coal 

industry to survive. 

While many point out that the permit issue is 

only affecting surface mining, in our community 

the overwhelming majority of coal operations are 

underground and they are slowly being squeezed out 

by these policy decisions. Unfortunately, in our 

community there are precious few opportunities for 
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growth. There are no major highways encouraging 

economic development and supporting commerce among 

the small towns nestled in the folds of our 

mountains. 

As Executive Director of the Harlan County 

Chamber of Commerce, I am concerned about the 

immediate future of all of our people and all of 

our businesses that depend on coal for jobs, 

ranging from our engineers and geologists to our 

truck drivers. As miners lose their jobs and move 

on, Harlan County loses not only our families but 

all of our merchants, teachers, doctors, lawyers, 

and other professionals whose work disappears with 

them. 

We've been through tough times before, but 

never faced such a daunting combination of 

political and market forces killing our only 

viable industry. Market ups and downs we 

understand; that's business. We can all agree 

that regulations, fair treatment, and responsible 

oversight are necessary and beneficial. But the 

indiscriminate application of policies and 

interpretation, rather than laws and regulations 

that teach Appalachian mining, is unacceptable 

while approving operations in other areas is 
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unjust and potentially catastrophic to our 

livelihood. Thank you. 

(Applause)

PUBLIC SPEAKER: My name is Bill Bissett, and 

I'm president of the Kentucky Coal Association. 

We represent the 18,000 men and women who mine the 

coal in Kentucky every day. For every one coal 

miner, three other jobs are dependent on that coal 

miner for their jobs. (Applause). So when we 

have a layoff, when mines close, you are not just 

affecting the miners, you are affecting three 

other jobs as well. 

I want to thank you, Jim, for the opportunity 

to address you again, as I did in Frankfort. Let 

me tell you about Frankfort. We had thousands of 

people there in the Capitol, where they do not 

mine coal, Democrats and Republicans, coal miners 

from west and eastern Kentucky with their 

families, who were overwhelming the loudest voice 

in that town that day standing up for Kentucky 

coal, and we need to thank them. (Applause). 

I have some questions today for the 

Environmental Protection Agency. I would 

appreciate a response by writing, if possible. 

Where is Lisa Jackson today? What does she have 
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to do that is more important than these jobs and 

these people of eastern Kentucky? Where is Gwen 

Keyes Fleming today, the Region 4 Administrator? 

What is she doing that is more important than this 

hearing today? 

When you started this guidance, it was six 

states: Tennessee, Virginia, Ohio, Pennsylvania, 

Kentucky, and West Virginia. A year later you 

removed four of the states and maintained this 

policy in eastern Kentucky and West Virginia. Why 

were the other four states released? I would 

assume it is because they are battleground states 

for the upcoming election and the President needs 

their support. That is politically motivated and 

that is wrong. It is selective enforcement to 

single out eastern Kentucky and West Virginia. 

The fish don't care who are on the border of the 

state. They are drinking the same water. It 

doesn't make any sense. Why only eastern 

Kentucky? Why does the same mining permit in 

western Kentucky got approved by your office, yet 

the eastern Kentucky surface mining is objected 

to? That is selective enforcement and that is 

wrong. Why did it take one and a half years to do 

these public hearings? Why is only coal being 
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singled out? What about highway construction, 

agriculture, and other large earthmoving 

equipment? 

We appreciate you listening today. And as my 

good friend Don Gibson said, you are going to hear 

from us again in November. 

(Applause)

MS. MacPHERSON: Okay. Thank you. Next 

speaker, please. 

SPEAKER NO. 91: Good afternoon. My name is 

Michael Bryant, Jr., B-r-y-a-n-t. I'm speaker 

number 91. 

I'd like to let the audience know, I've been 

employed in the coal industry for 40 years. I had 

one termination of coal activity. I served my 

country for 13 months during active duty and 

wearing an American uniform. At no time did my 

President ever direct me to go take a working 

man's job from him to protect this country. And 

now it seems like we're under fire from the EPA, 

from the U.S. Corps of Engineers, and this is not 

right. 

The United States Constitution has an act 

that says, "No law will be made to be detrimental 

to another industry." So why is the U.S. coal 
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industry under attack in the southern Appalachian 

coal fields? Why not the Illinois coal basin and 

why not Wyoming? Why aren't we all being treated 

the same way? Is their time in the barrel going 

to come after ours? 

When you cut off the tree of coal, the root 

will die. And it will also take every industry 

with it when it does that. All of the supporting 

industries will be gone. And now we find 

ourselves with a population shift that is called 

demographics. We look at all of these small 

communities that are getting smaller every day. 

The cities are getting smaller. We are 

consolidating schools. We have one school in each 

county. Where is the population going to? They 

are going to well-paying jobs. We'll not make it 

as a tourist industry here in this state. And we 

will also not make it as an automobile 

manufacturing state, simply because nobody is 

going to locate here because of the detrimental 

effects of the EPA, how they treat smoke stack 

industries. 

And I would like to also say that the present 

administration is so ill thought of in the United 

States right now, the king is even saying he was 
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born here. So let's all get behind what is 

actually affecting us right now and change this 

thing. Hope -- 

MS. MacPHERSON: Thank you very much. 

(Applause)

MS. MacPHERSON: Thank you.

SPEAKER NO. 94: Hello.

MS. MacPHERSON: The next speaker. Hello. 

SPEAKER NO. 94: My name is Mike Mays. And 

I'm number 94 on the list. I am a candidate, a 

Republican candidate, for the House of Delegates 

in West Virginia. 

I brought this cup with me for a certain 

reason. There are certain words in the English 

language that I have a medical condition that when 

those words, when I speak them, it causes me to 

have to spit, and I apologize for that. But I 

would like to say to the EPA that you are in 

Pikeville, Kentucky, just to remind you. Some of 

you had problems with that a minute ago. 

(Applause). Pikeville, Kentucky is the home of 

the Hatfields and McCoys. And I will tell you, 

that if Randall or Devil Anse were alive today, 

they wouldn't be shooting at each other. And you 

know what I am referring to. (Applause). 
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But I would like to welcome you to eastern 

Kentucky. I am from southern West Virginia. I 

have lived in eastern Kentucky. And I know what 

it is like to face hardship in the coal industry. 

But never in my worst imaginations would I have 

ever thought that the biggest obstacle to the fine 

men and women who work in the coal industry was 

our own federal government. 

Mr. Obama -- there's -- there's one of those 

words. I'm sorry. (Indicating. Applause.)

Mr. Obama has made it extremely difficult for 

us to make a living in the coal industry. And we 

are squandering a resource that cannot be 

replaced. And I am not referring to coal. I'm 

talking to those men and women who are the most 

professional miners in the world who bring coal 

out every day for our electricity bills to be 

something that is unequal in the world. We owe 

them a debt of gratitude. They saved this country 

in World War II. They will save this country 

again whenever needed. Thank you very much.

(Applause)

SPEAKER NO. 93: My number is 93. My name is 

George Helton, H-e-l-t-o-n. I'm proud to 

represent I'm a coal miner. I work for C & T 
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Coal. 

The EPA, they always want to drop our 

permits. They don't want to look at things 

equally, fair. We're not a villain. We are just 

human beings like you are. All we ask is to be a 

way of life. Why can't you look at things 

equally? If we are doing something so bad, set it 

up for the next generation instead of kicking 

everybody out. This country is not ready for 

using no more coal. It is going to be years down 

the road. 

Why don't you just get together and use your 

heads and dedicate yourself to setting up the next 

generation, the following generation. There is 

not a person in this room that does not want to 

leave their next generation, their grandkids, a 

better life. Do you just think we are so dirty 

because we mine coal you don't want us to work? I 

don't understand why. I mean, people in the White 

House up there does not understand this industry a 

bit. Do you understand the complete process of 

mining coal? It is a construction job. In 

another 5 years, 10 years, you go down the road, 

if you don't know that mountain has been stripped, 

you will not be able to tell it. Why does 
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everybody don't want us to have a job, be with the 

United States. We're proud to be American. Why 

is the EPA taking fit on all of the coal industry? 

Don't they look at what everybody else in the 

United States does, the nuclear system. Look at 

Japan over there. How many generations is going 

to die from what happened over there last year? 

Can't people take and realize and understand why? 

Thank you. 

(Applause)

SPEAKER NO. 96: I have an assigned number of 

96. My name is Roger Horton. I'm here 

representing the Citizens for Coal, the 

Mountaintop Mining Coalition, the West Virginia 

Coal Association, the West Virginia Coal Forum, 

and all of the West Virginians who care about West 

Virginia and our great country. 

You know, yesterday passed June the 6th. 

Sixty-eight years ago a lot of coal miners went to 

liberate a country, fighting in World War II. 

They fought. Many of them died, because they 

believed in this great nation. I have a message 

for the EPA. The men and women that you are 

confronting in the coal field today are just as 

adamant about whooping somebody's butt as those 
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great men and women who died during that war. We 

have had enough of the belittlement of the 

professional jobs that we carry out. So I'm here 

to tell you that we are going through the proper 

channels. It will all be done lawfully, as we all 

prescribe to do. We are coming to Charleston with 

our votes and with our comments. And if not very 

careful, this EPA you see will have so little 

power they will not be able to leave that place up 

there. They won't have the gas to get out. 

I'm here to tell you that the coal industry 

is vital to the communities and to the national 

security of this United States, and we're willing 

to fight for it, and we're going to do it. And I 

appreciate your time and for the opportunity to 

speak, so thank you very very much.

MS. MacPHERSON: Thank you very much.

(Applause)

PUBLIC SPEAKER: My name is Jimmy Hall. And 

I live in Millers Creek, Letcher County, Kentucky. 

I want to commend the miners for keeping the 

lights on for us. I want to condemn the coal 

companies, the big boys, for destroying my water, 

trying to take my land from me. A gentleman said 

something about the Hatfields and McCoys. I guess 
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that's how I feel. I'm the fourth, fifth 

generation of this property. I've had 

contamination, a hydraulic wall, anti-freeze, 

abandoned equipment, and everything else on this 

property. It took eight years for me to get them 

to pick up the garbage. I am not allowed to go 

out here and change my oil or drain my radiator 

into the ground. If everybody in this United 

States of ours goes out and does that, can you 

imagine what is going to happen to our water? 

Right now, we are fighting for water in 

Millers Creek. We have lead and arsenic in our 

water. It is contaminate. We need help over 

there. We need water. We don't need to pay for 

taps. We don't need to pay for the waterline. We 

don't mind paying the bill. But the whole thing 

is, it is nice to have a job working for the 

mines. It is nice to make $22.7 billion for a 

Christmas bonus, and I'm talking about the CEO for 

a major company. Bring some of that money back 

and give the poor people that don't have water and 

some of the other things that they need around 

here, what they -- what they made. 

The miners, I praise them. They do a good 

job. I am not a miner. I put nuts and bolts on 
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cars all my life. But I am a Kentuckian. I fill 

out something on a form, "Where are you born and 

raised?" I say, "Deane, Kentucky." 

I am in here trying to tell you, we need 

decent water. And if you are going to take and -- 

EPA, thank you. Because if we didn't have the 

rules, it would be worse. Thank you. 

(Applause)

MS. MacPHERSON: Thank you very much. Okay. 

At this moment, I believe right now you are out -- 

oh. We have two, two more speakers. And then, as 

far as I know, we don't have any other speakers 

registered. We're going to take a 15 minute break 

so that if others want to register to speak, we 

will do so and then come back after the break. 

But we'll hear from these last two right now. 

Please go ahead. 

PUBLIC SPEAKER: My name is Jack Earl Smith. 

I am a small business person from Phelps. I run a 

gas station, motel, laundry mats. And I've been 

in business there for 35 years, do construction 

business, paving, backhoe, and septic stuff. I 

see myself as a small entrepreneur. 

But I did work in the coal mines back in the 

early 70s. For several years I was an 
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electrician, mechanic. And then I become a mine 

foreman and got into the coal business for a 

while. And the coal business -- coal is the top 

dog in Pike County and eastern Kentucky. Without 

coal, the money would dry up in my stream. I am 

not foolish enough, like some people think, we 

don't need coal. But we do need coal. But we 

need to do it in a balanced approach. And 

everybody gets hot on different issues. 

But the truth of the matter is, in years past 

the EPA and environmentalists and the regulators 

have done some good. In the early 60s and the 

50s, when I went hunting in the hills it was 

dangerous to get up there and look down on the 

valleys. But it has changed. I was against coal 

strip mining at that time. But now it has grown 

up, because of some nudging from government. And 

smart coal operators, now they mine in a 

reasonable way. Now it is a win-win situation for 

the coal industry. Besides people making money, 

feeding their families and feeding us other guys 

that does other businesses, keeping the taxes paid 

to balance the budget, it has become a win-win. 

When you go on the mountaintop, I have got a 

friend up there at the airport, it is a strip job, 
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and you see elk herds, you can see deers, you can 

see all kinds of animals, the turkeys. And so -- 

and people live up there. They have got golf 

courses at different places and different 

businesses. So it's a win-win. And we need the 

coal industry. And they are mining in a 

reasonable way. And the EPA has been a benefit 

some in the past. It hasn't all been bad. 

I went to Chicago in the early 50s -- I mean 

the 70s, really. And the air was so terrible you 

couldn't breathe. But now it is improved. But 

now you are bad on the landfills. It is not a 

terrible thing. The streams, they want to say we 

can't build the landfills on it. There is no 

water there 95 percent of the time. So let them 

do the landfills. You are getting too tough. 

Back off some. We need you some, but don't overdo 

it. Thank you.

MS. MacPHERSON: Thank you. 

(Applause)

MS. MacPHERSON: Thank you. Okay. Next 

speaker, please.

PUBLIC SPEAKER: Hello? Is this on? 

MS. MacPHERSON: It is.

PUBLIC SPEAKER: All right. My name is Alex 
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Desha. That's D-e-s-h-a. I'm a member of the 

Sierra Club, and I live in Letcher County, 

Kentucky, and I can't drink the water. 

You can walk by just about any holler with 

surface mining and see poison water in dead 

streams. There is a pattern of violations by coal 

companies in regards to clean water. We are here 

today because the state has failed us. The 

Beshear Administration does not seem to care about 

people or water. They seem more concerned about 

the bottom line, of coal CEOs that pay themselves 

$6 million a year, fly around in their proud 

helicopters, and vacation in their second homes 

while they talk about the EPA killing jobs. They 

do all this while they layoff real people. 

They, like our state leadership, do not care 

about people. Since they don't care about people, 

they certainly don't care about clean water. They 

want you, the EPA, to back down and lift your 

objections or water them down so much that they 

don't matter. This is a fact. Water quality is a 

good indicator of human health. People living 

near the destruction suffer disproportionate rates 

of cancer, birth defects, and mortality. It is 

clear the state is not up to the task, and coal 
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companies will not police themselves. 

Do not listen to the fear being peddled by 

the coal industry. I want you to hold the line 

and revoke the state's authority to administer the 

NPDES program. Thank you. 

MS. MacPHERSON: Okay. Thank you. 

(Applause)

MS. MacPHERSON: So at this time we are going 

to take a 15 minute break. And maybe if you could 

put the 15 minute clock up. If there are any 

additional registrants, please go out to the front 

and we'll come back and we'll close up the 

hearing. 

(1:40 p.m. BREAK 1:57 p.m.)

MS. MacPHERSON: Okay. As far as I know, 

we've had no more registrations for people to 

speak. Is that right? 

So at this time, Jim will deliver the closing 

remarks. And I just want to remind people that we 

will vacate when we close and then re-open at 

5 p.m. for the evening hearing. Thank you. 

MR. GIATTINA: Thank you everybody for 

hanging in there, those of you that are still 

here. I do want to emphasize that I am very 

pleased to be in Pikeville, Kentucky. And I want 
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to thank each of you for your participation at 

this public hearing. 

The comments, as I said at the outset, that 

we receive, both oral and written, will be 

considered and evaluated by the EPA in making its 

decision regarding the permit objections. After 

consideration of the administrative record, the 

requirements of the Clean Water Act and its 

regulations, the EPA Region 4 Regional 

Administrator will make a determination concerning 

the objections and will notify Kentucky 

DOW, the district, and all persons having written 

comments or oral statements if you provided a 

mailing address to us. Additional information can 

be obtained through the EPA's website. 

And, again, thank you very much for your 

participation. I know this is an important issue 

for the people of this region. And if you have 

any other questions or comments, you can always 

reach the EPA through our website or through our 

public information office. 

So this hearing is now adjourned. Thank you.

(Public hearing concluded at 1:58 p.m.)
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REPORTER'S CERTIFICATE

STATE OF KENTUCKY )

COUNTY OF FAYETTE )

 

I, LISA M. SCHWARZE, RPR, KyCCR, and Notary 

Public in and for the Commonwealth of Kentucky at 

Large, do hereby certify that the facts as stated by 

me in the caption hereto are true; that the foregoing 

proceedings as indicated were made before me by the 

parties hereinbefore named, and were thereafter 

reduced to computer-aided transcription by me and 

under my supervision; and that the same is a true and 

accurate transcript of the proceedings to the best of 

my ability.

 I further certify that I am not employed by, 

related to, nor of counsel for any of the parties 

herein, nor otherwise interested in the outcome of 

this proceeding.

 IN WITNESS WHEREOF, I have affixed my 

signature and seal this 11th day of June, 2012.

 _______________________________

 LISA M. SCHWARZE, RPR, KyCCR

 Notary Public, State-at-Large

 2404 Doubletree Court

 Lexington, Kentucky 40514

 859.533.8961

My Commission Expires: June 13, 2013