UNITED STATES ARMY

CENTER OF MILITARY HISTORY

INTERVIEW OF

PATRICK CAROLAN

126-ORH-I-003

NEIT-126-003

CONDUCTED BY

SFC DAN MORIARTY

The Center of Military History

AT

Pier 92 EOC, New York City

SEPTEMBER 27, 2001

TAPE TRANSCRIPTION
2
3

1 P R O C E E D I N G S

2 SFC MORIARTY: Please. Do you mind? It's a 

3 digital. And what we do is we put it on the cover. It 

4 looks pretty cool. So it has a tape and your photo is 

5 on the cover of that tape, along with your name and 

6 whatnot.

7 And while he's doing that, I've got to do the 

8 disclaimer.

9 MR. CAROLAN: Okay. I'm sure it's a lovely 

10 picture.

11 SFC MORIARTY: He'll show it to you in a second. 

12 How did it come out?

13 SPEAKER: It's a little dark. I wish we had a 

14 flash attachment.

15 SFC MORIARTY: We do. There's a flash built into 

16 that.

17 SPEAKER: There isn't.

18 SFC MORIARTY: Yes, there is. It's right here on 

19 top, isn't it?

20 SPEAKER: No, it slides in here.

21 SFC MORIARTY: Okay. Fine. Be that way.
4

1 This report is going to the National Guard Bureau 

2 in Washington. Eventually, it's going to end up in the 

3 possession of the Center for Military History. I'm 

4 supposed to read this to soldiers. I'll read it to 

5 you, even though you're not.

6 "I understand that the tapes and transcript 

7 resulting from this oral history belong to the U.S. 

8 Government to be used in any manner deemed in the best 

9 interest of the U.S. Army" -- you really don't care 

10 about that -- "as determined by the Chief of Military 

11 History.

12 "I understand that, subject to security 

13 classification restrictions, I will be given an 

14 opportunity to edit the resulting transcript" -- which, 

15 again, you probably don't care about.

16 "The Army will provide me with a copy of the 

17 edited transcript." You're going to have grandchildren 

18 before that happens.

19 "I hereby and expressly volunteer to relinquish 

20 any rights and interest in the tapes and transcripts to 

21 the U.S. Army for the following caveats." If you want 
5

1 to put any conditions, you put them here. Otherwise, 

2 if you could just initial after "none." And you're 

3 going to sign down here and date here. And if you 

4 could put your name right there.

5 MR. CAROLAN: Is this used as, like, a 

6 documentary, where they might sell it or something?

7 SFC MORIARTY: It's not -- what it is -- the 

8 Center for Military History is one of the largest 

9 repositories of raw information. And people 

10 researching stuff --

11 I don't know if you've had -- I'm a newspaper 

12 editor, and we constantly have people coming in to look 

13 up old newspaper clippings. You know, what they're 

14 looking for is the obituaries for such and such a date 

15 to see if a relative died and that kind of stuff.

16 Well, we also have a lot of people who call us up 

17 and ask us information about military things, and the 

18 Center for Military History has all of that kind of 

19 stuff. So it's not just a reference center, but it's a 

20 source of data, information that hasn't been refined, 

21 yet. So historians frequently go there and just pore 
6

1 through the stuff that's in there.

2 And this will join that. This will become part of 

3 that text.

4 MR. CAROLAN: Well, I guess, I'm also wondering, 

5 is it possible that they might use it as part of an 

6 investigation because -- you know, towards what 

7 happened with those buildings and why they came down or 

8 anything like that.

9 SFC MORIARTY: Truthfully, I can't answer --

10 MR. CAROLAN: It doesn't matter to me. I mean, 

11 I'd like it to be because --

12 Do I sign down here?

13 SFC MORIARTY: Yeah, you sign right here and then 

14 date here and, to tell you the truth, I can't even tell 

15 you what date it is. What is it? -- the 25th?

16 MR. CAROLAN: I don't know -- it's the 27th.

17 SFC MORIARTY: Oh, my God. See, once I put this 

18 uniform on, time all becomes relative.

19 If, for the tape, you could give me your name.

20 MR. CAROLAN: Patrick Carolan.

21 SFC MORIARTY: And the company you work for?
7

1 MR. CAROLAN: Verizon -- Verizon Center for I 

2 Solutions.

3 SFC MORIARTY: And where was your office located?

4 MR. CAROLAN: We were on the 12th floor.

5 SFC MORIARTY: The 12th floor of what building?

6 MR. CAROLAN: Tower 2.

7 SFC MORIARTY: At the World Trade Center?

8 MR. CAROLAN: Right.

9 SFC MORIARTY: The person who is transcribing this 

10 will get it, eventually.

11 You were there on September 11th.

12 MR. CAROLAN: September 11th, I was there at 8:30 

13 in the morning. We had a meeting, an they had asked us 

14 to come in early -- make sure we were there by 8:30.

15 So what had happened was -- do you want me to go 

16 through what happened, my experience?

17 SFC MORIARTY: Sure.

18 MR. CAROLAN: Okay. So I was sitting at my desk, 

19 I was checking voice mails and I was replying to an e20 mail and, in my subconscious, I heard kind of a 

21 rumbling sound.
8

1 In the summertime, they have bands playing out in 

2 the mall area and they're warming up a lot of times. 

3 And I had a seat by the window and I would hear it 

4 inside the cubicle, and I just learned to ignore it. 

5 Maybe that's why it didn't register right away, you 

6 know, what was a really loud rumbling sound.

7 After about maybe ten seconds, it came to the 

8 front of my consciousness: what is that? At the same 

9 time I thought that, I felt a vibration; you know, you 

10 could feel the floor rocking.

11 SFC MORIARTY: You were on the 12th floor?

12 MR. CAROLAN: I was on the 12th floor. I'm 

13 convinced that it was from the first tower. As a 

14 matter of fact, we thought that our tower was hit first 

15 or that there was an explosion in our tower.

16 I didn't expect it to be an explosion, quite 

17 honestly. I wasn't there in '93. My first gut 

18 reaction was that maybe there was an accident upstairs; 

19 maybe a construction accident or maybe a pipe burst.

20 Maybe two seconds, three seconds, after the 

21 vibration, I heard this crackling sound, and it was 
9

1 getting louder and louder. I'm supposing that it might 

2 have been the shell of our building absorbing some of 

3 the stress or the concussion waves just going through 

4 the outside of the building.

5 I looked out the window when I heard that noise 

6 and I started to see debris. At first, it started --

7 (Background noise.)

8 SFC MORIARTY: Wait. We'll pick them up.

9 MR. CAROLAN: Okay.

10 (Pause.)

11 SFC MORIARTY: Okay. Go ahead.

12 MR. CAROLAN: Then I looked out the window and I 

13 saw debris and I immediately ran away from the window 

14 to the middle of the floor. You know, I was afraid 

15 maybe something might come in the window. I still 

16 didn't realize that it was a serious situation. I 

17 thought maybe it was an accident and some glass got 

18 blown out.

19 At that point, I looked towards the north side of 

20 the tower -- I think it was the north side of the 

21 tower. But I looked out the far windows and I saw 
10

1 debris coming that way, too. Then I started to get a 

2 little bit more concerned.

3 Somebody ran in through a side entrance and said, 

4 "That was an explosion. Everybody get away from the 

5 windows." That was my first real inkling that --

6 SFC MORIARTY: Do you know who said that?

7 MR. CAROLAN: Yeah, that was Bill Gleason.

8 SFC MORIARTY: What is he? -- is he a supervisor?

9 MR. CAROLAN: No, he's a salesperson with our 

10 organization but he's a retired policeman, so, right 

11 away, I'm going to validate whatever he says.

12 SFC MORIARTY: Not more than a few seconds after 

13 that, another co-worker of mine, who was there in '93 

14 with the first bombing, who had told me everything 

15 about her previous experience, maybe three weeks before 

16 this happened, said "That was an explosion. Everybody 

17 get out of the building, now."

18 At that point, I was debating whether or not to go 

19 back to my desk and grab whatever I could. I ran back 

20 and grabbed my cell phone and my Palm Pilot and I 

21 thought, you know, "I'll be back in an hour. I'll 
11

1 leave everything else." I didn't think the buildings 

2 were going to come down.

3 I remember looking out the window and I remember 

4 seeing the debris was larger. I believe I might have 

5 seen pieces of the plane. I don't know.

6 SFC MORIARTY: How many minutes is this after the 

7 initial rumbling that you heard? -- three minutes, four 

8 minutes?

9 MR. CAROLAN: Anywhere from three to five minutes. 

10 A lot of stuff was happening quickly.

11 But I believe maybe there were parts of the plane, 

12 but I remember seeing pieces of paper, memorandums 

13 (sic) and things like that, and then I realized that 

14 somebody was definitely hurt because the building was 

15 opened up.

16 I turned around and -- you know, I headed pretty 

17 quickly. Nobody was running. Everybody was going out 

18 really orderly. I headed for the stairs. I was out 

19 with another co-worker of mine and we went down the 

20 stairs together.

21 Some people took off. We were just going orderly. 
12

1 I wanted to stay with her just because we were keeping 

2 each other calm. I mean, we were kind of talking about 

3 it; nervous, kind of what's going on, but we weren't 

4 scared.

5 We got down to the lobby of the tower and I 

6 remember looking out over the mall area -- because you 

7 could see through the main doors -- and I saw smoke, a 

8 lot of, like, white dust. And the security guards 

9 headed us into the mall area where the shopping area 

10 was.

11 We walked out there. Then I remember thinking, 

12 the last time there was an attack here, the inside of 

13 this mall was damaged really badly and we should not be 

14 in here.

15 We followed the crowd to, I believe, it was 4-5, 

16 the doors by 4 and 5 World Trade Center. And, as we 

17 were headed for the door, there was a police officer 

18 and a security guard, and the police officer said, 

19 "Everybody turn around, go back the way you came, take 

20 a left, and go out the north side."

21 I thought maybe it was debris falling. We turned 
13

1 around. People were talking to each other. Strangers 

2 were talking to each other, pretty relaxed, just 

3 saying, "What's going on?" I said, "I think there was 

4 an explosion." Nobody knew it was a plane with the 

5 people that I was with.

6 As soon as I said that, the police officer from 

7 behind us yelled out, "Oh, my God, there's a bomb. 

8 There's a bomb right here. Bomb, bomb, bomb. 

9 Everybody run."

10 The place turned into an absolute --

11 SFC MORIARTY: Did you ever find out what he was 

12 talking about?

13 MR. CAROLAN: No. Actually, I've only been able 

14 to find -- the person I was with, my co-worker, 

15 remembers hearing that. Nobody else that I've spoken 

16 to had heard that.

17 As I go through, I'll give you another reason why 

18 I think there might have been --

19 SFC MORIARTY: So you're all running.

20 MR. CAROLAN: Right. So then we started running. 

21 People were pushing each other out of the way. I 
14

1 actually -- there was a woman I saw get stepped on. I 

2 mean, she hit the ground and people just ran right over 

3 her. It was pretty bad.

4 But, at the same time, I was thinking -- I was 

5 waiting for an explosion behind me. And I thought, 

6 this is it. I just recently married and I was

7 thinking, this isn't the way to go and I need more 

8 time, whatever.

9 And, at the same time, I was thinking, I need a 

10 place -- you know, I was looking at corners that, you 

11 know, you might be able to duck into but, at the same 

12 time, realizing you can't hide from a bomb.

13 We ran around the corner. We ended up getting 

14 over by 1 World Trade Center, where there's an 

15 escalator. When we got to the escalator, Carmele 

16 (phonetic) was -- she was running kind of with tunnel 

17 vision. She was petrified -- I mean, everybody was.

18 I knew where the escalator was because I used to 

19 take the subway right past it. So I shouted to her. 

20 She came over to me and we took the stairs.

21 SFC MORIARTY: She's your co-worker.
15

1 MR. CAROLAN: Right. And we headed up the stairs 

2 and we came to the exit of the building. I'm almost 

3 positive that it was 1 World Trade Center. I mean, I 

4 am positive: the escalator was from 1 World Trade 

5 Center.

6 We got to the door and there was a police officer 

7 there -- a woman police officer. And I can still see 

8 her face because she looked scared. She looked like 

9 she wanted to run but she couldn't or she wouldn't, 

10 which was very -- well, I won't get into that.

11 She said, "Run. There's debris falling. Just run 

12 as fast as you can across the street."

13 We took off across the street. We were running 

14 side by side and, at the same time, I looked up and I 

15 saw 1 World Trade Center on fire. I couldn't believe 

16 it. I saw part of the hole that the plane had made. I 

17 didn't know -- I thought it was an explosion.

18 SFC MORIARTY: So they had directed you from the 

19 lobby back into 1?

20 MR. CAROLAN: No, it wasn't -- it's hard to 

21 describe. You're not really in the building; you're in 
16

1 the lower region of the buildings. It's like a giant 

2 mall. It's like a maze. There's a lot of different 

3 exits and this is the one they pointed us out to.

4 Where they plane had impacted wasn't where we came 

5 out. It was around to the other side of the building. 

6 But you could see the crater. I thought maybe it was 

7 an explosion.

8 As we were running and I looked up and I saw that, 

9 I said to her, "Let's keep going." A lot of people 

10 were standing right across the street, looking up at 

11 this thing. And I said, "We have to get away from this 

12 building."

13 I mean, I've heard stories where people get 

14 killed, standing and looking at this stuff. You know, 

15 if it was a bomb, maybe -- you know, once the police 

16 officer yelled "bomb," now I'm thinking "attacks." 

17 And, a lot of times, I've heard that terrorist attacks, 

18 if there's a bomb someplace, there's usually another 

19 one real close by as a secondary device.

20 SFC MORIARTY: A car bomb or something like that 

21 waiting for the crowd?
17

1 MR. CAROLAN: Right. So we took off. We ran 

2 about maybe a block-and-a-half, two blocks and we 

3 stopped. We were catching our breath. There was a lot 

4 of people standing around and I heard -- I mean, I saw 

5 people standing there looking.

6 There was a big construction worker -- a big guy -

7 - and he was down on one knee and he was throwing up. 

8 And the three other guys were looking straight up at 

9 the building. And I'm thinking, these guys -- there's 

10 something really wrong that they're watching. 

11 Everybody was looking up.

12 Somebody yelled, "Oh, my God, people are jumping," 

13 and I turned around and I looked. The first person I 

14 saw fall, I didn't believe it was a person. I don't 

15 know if it was because I didn't want to believe it.

16 Carmele said, "I think it was a piece of paper." 

17 She was pretty shook up.

18 I'm looking up. I saw people jumping. One guy 

19 was wearing a blue shirt and a yellow tie, and he was 

20 just going end over end. I mean, there was a lot of 

21 people jumping.
18

1 And I turned around. I went cold. I couldn't 

2 function for a couple of seconds. I just couldn't 

3 imagine somebody having to jump out of there.

4 I turned my back on it, and I was trying to dial 

5 my wife on my cell phone. And, at that second, as soon 

6 as I turned around, there was an explosion -- a 

7 tremendous explosion.

8 Now, I know the second tower was hit up around the 

9 40th floor but when this explosion went off, the street 

10 rocked. I kind of went down on one knee to get my 

11 balance, and then stay down because I didn't know where 

12 it was coming from. It sounded directly behind me; not 

13 up above.

14 At that point, I'm looking down the street and I'm 

15 seeing glass from storefronts at least two blocks away, 

16 all of them just caving in on the people. Glass was 

17 shattering everywhere.

18 Thinking about it, in retrospect, I don't know how 

19 a plane 40 stories up -- maybe it would. I don't know 

20 that much about explosions. But, to me, it seemed like 

21 it was a bomb, like the cop said: "Hey, there's a bomb 
19

1 in here. Get out."

2 When that happened, we took off running again, you 

3 know, just absolutely petrified. People were 

4 screaming. More pandemonium, people knocking each 

5 over. I think Carmele actually got slammed into a wall 

6 by somebody.

7 We ran two blocks, took a left, ran two more 

8 blocks. Somehow, we ended up in front of One Police 

9 Plaza. I looked at One Police Plaza and I said, "If 

10 there's going to be another explosion, this is a good 

11 place for if we got to get out of here."

12 We ran another block or two. There was another 

13 police officer in the middle of the road with a 

14 detective, and people were just crowding around, 

15 looking. We didn't even see. We just wanted to get 

16 out of Manhattan. We just wanted out of Manhattan. I 

17 didn't want to go to midtown and I figured we were 

18 going to have to walk.

19 SFC MORIARTY: So the second explosion was the 

20 plane going into Tower 2?

21 MR. CAROLAN: You know, I'm thinking maybe it was 
20

1 but I don't know. I'm pretty sure that there was 

2 another explosion. The reason for that is, my brother3 in-law was in Tower 1. He was up on the 39th floor 

4 working for Lieman Brothers.

5 When his tower got hit, he said they headed --

6 actually, he said, on impact, on their floor, the 38th 

7 floor, the ceiling tiles came in on top of all of them 

8 -- his group, his area. They had acoustic tiles.

9 SFC MORIARTY: Where did the plane hit the --

10 MR. CAROLAN: The first tower was hit, I think, 

11 around the 90th floor.

12 SFC MORIARTY: That's what I had thought; very 

13 high.

14 MR. CAROLAN: He said maybe the tremor or the 

15 shock just knocked the ceiling tiles out of the grids. 

16 He said they came down on the desk and people got up 

17 and immediately headed for the stairs. I think they 

18 were a little bit more in a hurry than we were, 

19 obviously.

20 But when they hit the stairs, I think they ran 

21 down 15 flights of stairs. I'm not sure. But he said 
21

1 that the second plane, the concussion from that, rocked 

2 people from one side of the stairwell to the other. He 

3 said it felt like it was whipping, and he thought that 

4 the building was going over. He thought it was over.

5 They kept going. He saw firemen coming up. 

6 Somebody actually gave one of the fireman a hard time 

7 because he was in his way. That's why he remembers 

8 this fireman's face. And he's haunted with the idea 

9 that this guy went up to his death while they ran out.

10 By the time they got down to maybe 15, he said 

11 there was three or four inches of water in the 

12 stairwells from the sprinkler system.

13 He got to the bottom of the stairs and when he 

14 came out -- he was in 1 -- he came out to the same area 

15 I did. And, from what I understand -- he told me that 

16 in the mall area, the shopping area, there were wires 

17 hanging out of the ceiling. He said glass was broken. 

18 It looked like there was a bomb down there. It looked 

19 like there was an explosion. He actually said that 

20 there was some blood on the walls.

21 So I don't know. I don't know if he's got it 
22

1 confused with the shopping area and the concourse 

2 outside. But he said there was blood -- there was a 

3 lot of blood. He actually had blood on his pants when 

4 he got home.

5 You know, things are coming back to me now, where 

6 I remember seeing shoes -- you know, women's shoes, 

7 when they're trying to run --

8 SFC MORIARTY: They kicked them off?

9 MR. CAROLAN: Yeah. And there was definitely 

10 stuff outside on the sidewalk but, thank God, I don't 

11 have a clear picture of what that was.

12 We got to One Police Plaza. We kept going. We 

13 were going to walk across Manhattan Bridge. And we 

14 were also looking for a Verizon truck, hoping that 

15 maybe they could give us a lift. I thought, for sure, 

16 most people would want to get out of the area, and 

17 there would be no cabs, nothing. I didn't want to get 

18 into a subway.

19 A cab driver pulled up like he was sent by 

20 somebody. He picked us up and took us across the 

21 Manhattan Bridge. He got about halfway across. He had 
23

1 the radio on. He was actually of Arab descent -- maybe 

2 he was from the Middle East. I remember, thinking 

3 about it now, that he just seemed so placid when they 

4 screamed into the radio that the towers were falling.

5 And I turned around and I looked and -- I mean, I 

6 didn't see it come down but I remember seeing fire and 

7 smoke. There was a building in the way.

8 We ended up on the BQE, the Brooklyn Queens 

9 Expressway, and that was it. We saw it a couple of 

10 times from the Expressway, but we really didn't want to 

11 look at it. And I made it home.

12 SFC MORIARTY: When you looked back, what did you 

13 see? Was there one tower missing or were they both 

14 gone by then?

15 MR. CAROLAN: To be honest with you, I don't 

16 remember. I remember looking back. I remember seeing 

17 a lot of flames, a lot of smoke. When she said, "The 

18 tower came down," I turned around and I looked, but 

19 there was a building obstructing the view. And, as we 

20 came around the U-turn, I was thinking more about what 

21 had just happened to my brother-in-law. Because it 
24

1 didn't really dawn on me that he was there until I got 

2 across the bridge.

3 You know, it's been a couple of weeks and it's 

4 still, like, every time I talk about it, I get kind of 

5 shaky about it.

6 But Pete, when he was coming out --

7 SFC MORIARTY: Is Pete your brother-in-law?

8 MR. CAROLAN: My brother-in-law.

9 He said, when he got out, he saw pieces of bodies. 

10 He had to actually jump over some pools of blood. I 

11 don't know if that was from people that got hit with 

12 debris. I'm not sure what that was. He doesn't talk 

13 about it too much.

14 But I've heard some stories from some other people 

15 that that's what happened: a lot of people were hit 

16 with debris and were just sliced up or whatever.

17 But that's why I think there might have been a 

18 bomb; because he said that the lower area, when he hit 

19 it -- I mean, when we were in it, it was immaculate --

20 the whole area around 1 and 2.

21 When he got out, he said that there were wires, 
25

1 things just hanging. He said it looked like a 

2 construction zone.

3 SFC MORIARTY: And that's where the officer had 

4 said there was a bomb?

5 MR. CAROLAN: Right. I've spoken to a lot of my 

6 co-workers. None of them heard that. Some of them 

7 actually got out through that exit before that cop was 

8 there.

9 SFC MORIARTY: Who was the other co-worker that 

10 you actually made the escape with?

11 MR. CAROLAN: Her name is Carmele. Her last name 

12 is D-E-E-T-J-E-A, Deetjea.

13 SFC MORIARTY: I don't know if they'll do anything 

14 with this or not.

15 MR. CAROLAN: Well, just so you know. I mean, we 

16 talked about it at work. Nobody else heard it. Then I 

17 started to doubt myself. And when I saw her, I asked 

18 her and she said, "He definitely yelled, 'Bomb. 

19 Everybody run.'" And I can't imagine a cop doing that 

20 because, I swear to God, I think people were having 

21 heart attacks trying to get away.
26

1 There was a couple of older men -- I mean, I was 

2 looking out for us, too, but I remember seeing people 

3 around me and I would say that people were having heart 

4 attacks at that time.

5 So that's my story.

6 SFC MORIARTY: And I'm assuming your brother-in7 law got out safe, also.

8 MR. CAROLAN: Yeah, he's fine.

9 SFC MORIARTY: What's his last name?

10 MR. CAROLAN: Murphy.

11 SFC MORIARTY: Until the officer yelled that there 

12 was a bomb there, everything was orderly?

13 MR. CAROLAN: Very orderly -- and people were 

14 listening to what he was saying, so I can't imagine him 

15 saying it to get people to run. And he fear in his 

16 voice.

17 SFC MORIARTY: Okay. Were there any other points 

18 where it was a mob versus an orderly group? -- people 

19 trying to move away from a threat?

20 MR. CAROLAN: Do you mean were there any other 

21 points where people were orderly?
27

1 SFC MORIARTY: Uh-huh.

2 MR. CAROLAN: Well, the people that were running 

3 with me, they were running at top speed. We came 

4 around the mall area, we were probably a good 50 yards 

5 away from where the cop was. When we hit the 

6 escalator, people were still really hustling to get up 

7 the stairs.

8 By the time we hit the street, it seemed to me 

9 that people were hanging back at the building, like 

10 maybe stuff was falling. I just took off. I had my 

11 head down and I was gone.

12 I don't remember if we were side by side or she 

13 was behind me or in front of me. But I think I 

14 remember leaning into her ear, saying, "Just keep going 

15 for at least two blocks."

16 People on the other side of the street -- it was 

17 like they were looking at -- I mean, obviously, they 

18 were in shock, looking up at the building. But people 

19 were very -- they were standing still. Nobody was 

20 thinking about running at that point.

21 Luckily, we were a couple of blocks away when that 
28

1 second explosion hit. When that second explosion hit, 

2 pandemonium again.

3 SFC MORIARTY: The police officers that you did 

4 see along the way, were they trying to get people to 

5 move out of the area?

6 MR. CAROLAN: Yeah, yeah. But people weren't 

7 listening. There wasn't enough officers --

8 SFC MORIARTY: Hold on for a second.

9 (Background noise.)

10 SFC MORIARTY: Okay.

11 MR. CAROLAN: There wasn't enough officers to move 

12 that kind of a crowd. I remember the officer's face 

13 that told us to turn around. He was calm. He wasn't 

14 shouting at anybody. Maybe he turned us around because 

15 things were falling. I'm sure he did -- whatever he 

16 did was for a reason, and he probably saved our lives.

17 The second police officer, she was telling us to 

18 move as fast as you can across the street. Her face --

19 and I distinctly remember because she looked so scared. 

20 And, you know, she's, like, another person who needs 

21 to be standing there. But they did their job.
29

1 SFC MORIARTY: Once you got out, you just kept 

2 moving away.

3 MR. CAROLAN: We moved two blocks and stopped 

4 because somebody -- actually, we were catching our 

5 breath and somebody said, "People are falling." We 

6 stopped and we looked up -- and I'm sorry that I did --

7 saw what I did.

8 I turned around to call my wife. That's when the 

9 second explosion -- we took off again and we ran 

10 another three or four blocks. We ended up at One 

11 Police Plaza before we stopped running. And everybody 

12 standing around the area was fine. There were children 

13 in the street coming out of the high schools there -- I 

14 don't know if it's high school or what. It might be 

15 grade school. But they were all just standing around, 

16 very curious. And it was like they were getting out of 

17 our way, like we were parting the Red Sea. I mean, it 

18 was just surreal.

19 Actually, we ran into a woman about after the 

20 second bomb -- after the second explosion. A few 

21 blocks later, we ran into a woman who was just 
30

1 hysterical. And Carmele, I think, knew somebody that 

2 was with her.

3 And she said that she was walking to work and she 

4 saw the plane -- the first plane coming from way out. 

5 And she said, "That plane looks like it's coming in 

6 low." And she was thinking, "What's he doing?" Then 

7 it hit the building. And she was absolutely beside 

8 herself.

9 I think that's the first inkling that I had that 

10 it was a plane. And I thought, "How could a plane get 

11 that low?" We didn't know it was a second plane that 

12 hit the other building. We were thinking, "How could 

13 this happen?" I thought maybe the second explosion was 

14 a bomb that the police officer told us about.

15 I don't know. Just thinking about it, now, my

16 thoughts are so jumbled about my reaction to the fact 

17 that it was a terrorist attack. You know, everybody 

18 else was saying "terrorist attack." I wasn't thinking 

19 that at all, and I don't know why.

20 SFC MORIARTY: Well, I'm a newspaper editor --

21 managing editor, and we got an immediate alert; you 
31

1 know, AP. And we went into the publisher's office and 

2 she has a television -- you know, CNN -- on all the 

3 time.

4 Initially, they didn't know. They said that there 

5 was an explosion. But they had footage of the burning 

6 tower when the second plane hit the second tower. And, 

7 at that point, we knew it wasn't a gas -- because they 

8 were -- everything; gas explosion, that kind of thing. 

9 Nobody was certain till the second plane, and it was 

10 being filmed by all these television cameras.

11 Because -- what was the time? -- 18 minutes?

12 SFC MORIARTY: Eighteen minutes after the first 

13 explosion.

14 The other fellow that was with you earlier, he was 

15 on a higher floor?

16 MR. CAROLAN: No, I think he was on our floor.

17 SFC MORIARTY: Oh, okay.

18 MR. CAROLAN: And I'm not sure where he went.

19 SFC MORIARTY: That's all right.

20 MR. CAROLAN: But he was on our floor. Everybody 

21 that was on our floor is safe. We were lucky. We were 
32

1 lucky that the first plane hit where it did and we had 

2 some warning to get out. That's all I can say. We 

3 were really, really lucky.

4 SFC MORIARTY: Okay. How long had you worked in 

5 that building?

6 MR. CAROLAN: That was my -- I started Verizon 

7 July 9th, so I was there about two months. People had 

8 said, "Oh, World Trade Center, World Trade Center." 

9 But it was a joke.

10 SFC MORIARTY: And you're still working for 

11 Verizon, though, right?

12 MR. CAROLAN: Yeah. I must say, they were really 

13 great.

14 And my brother-in-law -- I'm not going to mention 

15 the company he works for -- but they had him back to 

16 work two days later, and he's working all sorts of 

17 crazy hours, seven days a week.

18 These guys were really great to us. They let us 

19 have as much time as we needed, provided counseling.

20 SFC MORIARTY: Did that help? -- the counseling?

21 MR. CAROLAN: Well, I haven't actually had any. 
33

1 I'm supposed to meet with a counselor Saturday. I 

2 didn't think I needed it. But, as time goes by, it's 

3 starting to become more disturbing for me, especially 

4 with all the images on TV.

5 I'm hearing a lot of terrible things that are 

6 being found down there. It's just -- my heart goes out 

7 to everybody but especially the people on the planes. 

8 I mean, I've done a lot of traveling in planes and I 

9 can't imagine what they went through.

10 SFC MORIARTY: And I'm from western Massachusetts, 

11 a small town of 40,000 people. We had three people --

12 we had one person on Flight 11, the superintendent of 

13 schools' daughter, one of our former colleagues. And 

14 we had two other folks who were working who haven't 

15 shown up. And the guys in the unit can't believe that 

16 in a city that size, we had three people.

17 Plus we had another four people -- one of the guys 

18 in our town was a pilot for United. And he normally 

19 flies Flight 11 about 80 percent of the time. They 

20 pulled him off to put him on another flight. They do 

21 that periodically just so they don't get stale and also 
34

1 trains them to be able to do other flights.

2 When his wife heard Flight 11 was involved, she 

3 was out of her mind because she didn't know.

4 And there were a couple of other people who worked 

5 in the Trade Center. One of them was going for a 

6 conference and got stuck in traffic. The other one 

7 forgot his wallet and said, "I need my wallet" and went 

8 back home.

9 Because there are securities, right? You had to 

10 show IDs and all that kind of stuff to get into the 

11 building, itself?

12 MR. CAROLAN: Yup.

13 SFC MORIARTY: Was it as bad as here?

14 MR. CAROLAN: No. I've been in the Trade Center, 

15 before, before, I started working here. Security was 

16 definitely stepped up. You needed a badge to put over 

17 the turnstile before the turnstile would even let you 

18 go through.

19 I don't know. I thought it was all right. I 

20 never gave a thought to the fact that the building 

21 wasn't secure. I can be -- I don't know if paranoid is 
35

1 the right word. But I notice when things aren't --

2 especially now. And I never gave a thought to the fact 

3 that the building wasn't secure. Now I see security 

4 lapses all over town. Even now.

5 SFC MORIARTY: What could they have done about 

6 that? I mean, unless you're going to have anti7 aircraft -- guys up on the roof with Stinger Missiles.

8 MR. CAROLAN: Well, you know what? Just thinking 

9 about it, between us, American Airlines had two planes 

10 that were hijacked, and the stewardesses were able to 

11 make calls and make people aware. And not just the 

12 stewardess but so did what's his name's wife.

13 SFC MORIARTY: The secretary.

14 MR. CAROLAN: Right. And I'm just wondering what 

15 they were thinking about. I know a transponder gives 

16 the ID of a plane, but they can still track them with 

17 radar. I'm wondering why it wasn't made immediately 

18 aware we've got -- not one; we've got two hijacked 

19 planes. The last plane that was hijacked was back in 

20 the 80s or the 70s. Why weren't a couple of fighters 

21 (inaudible) right away. That's what I'm thinking.
36

1 And I always thought the Pentagon airspace around 

2 Washington, D.C. was always protected with air cover. 

3 Apparently, it's not. You know, I want to know why.

4 I think a lot of people could have done more. I'm 

5 not looking to blame people. But I thought that we 

6 were a lot more secure than we were. I can't imagine 

7 what would have happened if that plane that crashed in 

8 Pittsburgh hit the White House. I can't imagine. And 

9 I always thought that that area was secure. So I'm a 

10 little disturbed by that. I really am. I guess 20/20 

11 hindsight.

12 SFC MORIARTY: There are changes starting to 

13 happen now. But, to a certain degree, I think there's 

14 going to be some resistance to a lot of the changes. 

15 And it's because, by making those changes, this guy or 

16 this group --

17 (Interruption in audiotaping.)

18 SFC MORIARTY: Okay.

19 MR. CAROLAN: My personal feelings are that we've 

20 been a little bit too open. Burning the American flag, 

21 that's a right -- I never thought it was a right -- I'd 
37

1 like to see somebody do it now.

2 I mean, I think you have to look at some kind of 

3 good out of everything. I like the way -- I think it's 

4 great the way people seem to be coming together a lot 

5 more. People are talking about liberties and rights. 

6 If the President declares war, you can't expect to have 

7 the same liberties and rights that you did before the 

8 11th of September. And I think that people are getting 

9 carried away with a lot of things that they deem as 

10 rights.

11 I think that the country -- a lot of people in the 

12 country, the ACLU -- I'm not going to get into a 

13 politics discussion. But I think a lot of things that 

14 have been happening before this should be done away 

15 with. And I like the fact that people are really 

16 starting to realize that.

17 I think that because of the seriousness of its 

18 nature, even if people's -- look what happened. I 

19 think that if people do have their liberties somewhat 

20 taken away, or they may not have all the rights, like 

21 walking onto a plane without going through some serious 
38

1 security, I think a lot of people will be able to 

2 adjust to it because of what happened. And I think 

3 that's a good thing.

4 Like I said, I'm just trying to look for some good 

5 in what happened. I'd like to see somebody burning the 

6 American flag today. I don't think that they'd get 

7 away with it too easily.

8 SFC MORIARTY: No. They'd have to answer to their 

9 fellow citizens, I think, before anybody in an official 

10 capacity got there.

11 MR. CAROLAN: Well, as a member of the media, I 

12 don't know if you've heard the stories about certain 

13 communities within this country cheering as this thing 

14 took place.

15 SFC MORIARTY: Oh, really.

16 MR. CAROLAN: Patterson (phonetic), New Jersey and 

17 -- from what I understand -- I didn't see it; my 

18 brother said he saw it. He said that the people there 

19 were cheering. And then he hasn't heard another word 

20 about it in the media.

21 SFC MORIARTY: Who -- Patterson? A liberal --
39

1 MR. CAROLAN: No, it's actually an Arab community. 

2 That's actually where some of the bombers from the '93 

3 building lived and were based out of.

4 The other thing is, there is a store chain called 

5 the National Wholesale Liquidators. When I first heard 

6 this, I thought maybe it was a hoax -- and I heard it 

7 in an e-mail. But I've been hearing it from a lot of 

8 people. Staten Island, Long Island, Brooklyn, a lot of 

9 those stores are Arabic owned and employed, and there 

10 was cheering going on in these stores.

11 I heard a story about a woman who was in there and 

12 asked what everybody was cheering about, and somebody 

13 said, "When our people do something, they do it right." 

14 I can't imagine that that's not being publicized. 

15 That's why I'm tending to believe maybe it's not true. 

16 But there are more and more stories coming out about 

17 it, and it's very disturbing that we're not doing 

18 something internally.

19 Okay. We're investigating and looking for the 

20 people that we think were involved but I think that 

21 there should be a lot more going on within those 
40

1 communities to determine if those stories are true or 

2 not.

3 At first, I thought maybe it was just kind of a 

4 discriminatory thing but there are more and more people 

5 talking about it.

6 My wife works for a brokerage house. She's a 

7 sales assistant. There's a broker that works in that 

8 office and she overheard a conversation. He was 

9 telling a couple of people that his wife's sister is a 

10 teacher of a fourth grade class.

11 And the Monday before this happened, as her kids 

12 were leaving the classroom, one of them looked really 

13 sad. He was an Arabic kid -- Arabic child. And she 

14 said, "What's the matter?" And he said, "A lot of 

15 people are going to be very sad tomorrow." And he 

16 looked pretty distraught about it. She couldn't get 

17 anything out of him and she thought, well, I'm going 

18 home, I guess. Most people do.

19 After what happened happened, she called the 

20 police and the house was abandoned. There was actually 

21 nobody there at the house that the kid lived in before 
41

1 this happened.

2 SFC MORIARTY: They moved out, you mean?

3 MR. CAROLAN: Yeah, they were gone.

4 I believed it because she overheard a broker 

5 talking. I'm sure he wouldn't make it up.

6 But I also heard a similar story from my father7 in-law. He belongs to a country club and one of the 

8 members of the club, his wife planned on going to the 

9 city that day, and she called her neighbor, who is 

10 Arabic, and she said, "Don't go into the city tomorrow 

11 -- or Tuesday." She told her over the weekend, "Tell 

12 your husband he should be out of the city on Tuesday." 

13 And she remembered that conversation, like, the 

14 Thursday or Friday after everything happened.

15 So I think there were a lot more people that knew. 

16 Maybe word spread throughout that Arabic community 

17 just to protect each other, and maybe they had no idea 

18 what was going to happen but something was going to 

19 happen.

20 SFC MORIARTY: Yeah, because there were hundreds 

21 of Muslims.
42

1 MR. CAROLAN: Yeah, in those buildings, who died -

2 - who are missing. And when they came out with a list, 

3 by nation, of people, I was amazed at how international 

4 our community is. And, I mean, it's not just Christian 

5 and Muslim. It's various -- Hindu -- everybody.

6 SFC MORIARTY: Right. They're going to be working 

7 here which is going to denigrate the quality of this, 

8 so we'll curtail it.

9 Is there anything you want to add on your own?

10 MR. CAROLAN: No. I've probably said more than I 

11 should have.

12 SFC MORIARTY: That's all right. And you work for 

13 Verizon.

14 MR. CAROLAN: Right.

15 SFC MORIARTY: That's the name of my cell phone 

16 company.

17 Am I spelling that right?

18 MR. CAROLAN: V-E-R-I-Z-O-N.

19 SFC MORIARTY: It was great.

20 (The interview was concluded.)

21 (For the record) This interview was conducted by 
43

1 Sergeant First Class Dan Moriarty of the 126 Military 

2 History Detachment, Massachusetts National Guard in New 

3 York City on 27 September 2001.

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