ORIGINAl 

IN THE MATTER OF 

LIBERTY FOUNDATION, INC. 

DFMS NO. FAA-2012-0477 

TELEPHONIC CONFERENCE 

-.. 

BEFORE THE HONORABLE J.E. SULLIVAN 

HISTORIC JORDAN SPRINGS 

1160 JORDAN SPRINGS ROAD 

c 

STEPHENSON, VA 22656 

SEPTEMBER 20, 2012 

11:00 a.m. 

RECEIVED 

SEP 2 5 2012 

HEARING DOCKET 

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IN THE MATTER OF LIBERTY FOUNDATION September 20, 2012 Case Ref #16895-1 Page 2 

1 APPEARANCES: 

2 HONORABLE J. E. SULLIVAN 

3 U.S. DEPARTMENT OF TRANSPORTATION 

4 OFFICE OF HEARINGS, M-20 

5 1200 NEW JERSEY AVENUE, S.E. (Ell-310) 

~·· 6 WASHINGTON, DC 20590 

7 PHONE: 202.366.2132 

8 

9 ON BEHALF OF THE RESPONDENT: 

10 STUART A. GOLDSTEIN, P.A. 

11 9350 SOUTH DIXIE HIGHWAY, lOTH FLOOR 

12 MIAMI, FL 33156 

13 PHONE: 305.670.1222 

14 

15 ON BEHALF OF THE COMPLAINANT: 

16 ADRIANNE WOJCIK, ESQUIRE 

17 OFFICE OF THE REGIONAL COUNSEL 

18 GREAT LAKES REGION, AGL-7 

19 FEDERAL AVIATION ADMINISTRATION 

20 2300 EAST DEVON AVENUE 

21 DES PLAINES, IL 60018-4696 

2 2 PHONE: 8 4 7 . 2 9 4 . 71 0 9 

23 

24 ALSO PRESENT: 

25 CODY L. SMITH, OBSERVER 

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IN THE MATTER OF LIBERTY FOUNDATION September 20,2012 Case Ref#16895-1 Page 3 

1 TELEPHONIC CONFERENCE CALL 

2 SEPTEMBER 20, 2012 

3 THE COURT: We are on the record in the matter 

4 of Liberty Foundation. This is Docket number FAA-2012-

5 0477. Today is Thursday, September 20, 2012 and the 

6 parties have convened for a litigation scheduling 

7 conference. The FAA is represented by its attorney, 

8 Adrianne Wojcik. The Respondent, Liberty Foundation is 

9 represented by it's attorney, Stuart A. Goldstein. 

10 Also present at the office of Hearings is Cody L. 

11 Smith, an Attorney with this office who is sitting in 

12 an observer today. 

13 Good Morning Counsel. 

14 MR. GOLDSTEIN: Good morning Judge. 

15 MS. WOJCIK: Good Morning. 

16 THE COURT: Let's talk a little bit about 

17 just the procedural matter, then we can talk a little 

18 bit about venue. As you know, I filed a order setting 

19 this rule 16 litigation scheduling conference on July 

20 9, 2012. And since then I've received a variety of 

21 different documents, and I"ll try and identify them 

22 very quickly so that we're all on the same page and to 

23 make sure that it's a document that's been filed that I 

24 have gotten it. So, on July 13th 2012 the respondent 

25 filed, the respondent's suggestion of hearing location 

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IN THE MATTER OF LIBERTY FOUNDATION September 20, 2012 Case Ref #16895-1 Page4 

1 on July 17th, 2012 the FAA filed the administrators 

2 response to respondent's suggestion of hearing 

3 location. 

4 On July 24, 2012 the respondent filed it's 

5 answer an affirmative to defense's complaint, which was 

6 served on June 21, 2012. On July 25, 2012 the 

7 respondent filed the respondent's reply to the 

8 administrator's response to respondent's suggestion of 

9 hearing location. 

10 And then on August 28, 2012, the respondent 

11 filed it's response to the FAA's request to admit 

12 genuineness on certain documents. I'll simply note 

13 that the FAA chose not to file the initial request with 

14 this office. That was certainly fine, it is not 

15 required to file discovery materials with this office, 

16 unless there is a motion involving certain discovery 

17 disputes. And then, lastly on September 4th, 2012 the 

18 parties filed their joint proposed scheduling discovery 

19 plan. 

20 Ms. Wojcik, was there anything that I missed 

21 in terms of that list of filing since July 9th, 2012? 

22 MS. WOJCIK: No, your honor. That's all I 

23 have as well. 

24 THE COURT: Okay, and Mr. Goldstein, anything 

25 that I might have missed for your client? 

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IN THE MATTER OF LIBERTY FOUNDATION September 20, 2012 Case Ref #16895-1 Page 5 

1 MR. GOLDSTEIN: I don't think so, your Honor. 

2 THE COURT: Okay, thank you both very much. 

3 Let's talk then about the proposed discovery 

4 schedule and the trial date recommendations to this 

5 court. Thank you very much for filing that material. 

6 I have looked at it and I have tried to incorporate it 

7 into a little bit of an expanded discovery set-up, so 

8 that we have initial discovery, general discovery, a 

9 supplemental discovery phases all identified. And I've 

10 also expanded a little bit on the pretrial motion 

11 suggestions that you gave me, because typically what I 

12 like to do, is set up a dispositive motion schedule, so 

13 that if anybody wants to file for partial or full 

14 summary judgement or those types of things to narrow 

15 the issues for the actual trial, they can do so. And 

16 in those kinds of motions, I like to set up an oral 

17 argument. Just in the event that I get material that I 

18 have questions, we already have it set within the 

19 discovery schedule process, so that it doesn't disrupt 

20 the actual time-line that the parties had been working 

21 on. 

22 So, with that in mind, I"m going to suggest 

23 some things that track your schedule and see if it 

24 would work for you. So I have on your proposed 

25 schedule, a December 18th, 2012 date for exchanging 

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IN THE MATTER OF LIBERTY FOUNDATION September20, 2012 Case Ref#16895-1 Page 6 

1 expert witness summaries and reports. But I also have, 

2 and I'll start with page one, excuse me, I was on page 

3 three. I have an initial discovery request that should 

4 be answered by September 21, 2012. That's tomorrow. 

5 Counsel starting with you, Ms. Wojcik, is that still an 

6 acceptable deadline for you? 

7 MS. WOJCIK: I believe so. I was planning, 

8 Mr. Goldstein and I exchanged our discovery requests 

9 awhile ago, and we have been working on them. And as 

10 far as the FAA is concerned, I am planning to send them 

11 responses to this initial discovery today, so that Mr. 

12 Goldstein has it tomorrow. That's how things look on 

13 my end. 

14 THE COURT: Okay, Mr. Goldstein, what about 

15 you? 

16 MR. GOLDSTEIN: I'm just waiting on some final 

17 information, your Honor. But I think I'll get my 

18 responses out tomorrow. 

19 THE COURT: Why don't I do this, I always 

20 like to err on the side of caution. I'm happy to adopt 

21 the September 21, 2012 date for the initial discovery 

22 request deadline. It sounds like you have already done 

23 a lot of that, but I'm going to err on the side of 

24 caution and give you till tomorrow for the request. 

25 And then I'll shorten up the time for response, and put 

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IN THE MATTER OF LIBERTY FOUNDATION September 20, 2012 Case Ref #16895-1 Page 7 

1 that down for next Friday September 28th, 2012. So, 

2 instead of having everything done tomorrow, I'm giving 

3 you an extra week to do it, just in case something 

4 comes up that you haven't anticipated. So that would 

5 mean, that on or before September 28th, 2012 you all 

6 would need to respond and provide, serve, file ... I 

7 shouldn't say file, because I don't need to see them, 

8 but serve with each other with any and all initial 

9 discovery material. 

10 MR. GOLDSTEIN: You mean responses, Judge? 

11 You mean responses to the discovery that is out there? 

12 THE COURT: Correct. Let me try this- again, 

13 I'm sorry I wasn't clear. Tomorrow, Friday September 

14 21, 2012, is the deadline for the last day for the 

15 parties to request initial discovery. Next week on 

16 Friday September 28, 2012, is the deadline for the 

17 parties to respond to the initial discovery request. 

18 Which means, that all your initial discovery should be 

19 finished by next Friday the 28th, 2012. Then, we would 

20 start with the general discovery exchange deadline. 

21 So, I would propose to you that October 12, 2012 be the 

22 last date for you to exchange or serve all additional 

23 general discovery requests. And that would include, 

24 but would not be limited to your request for 

25 interrogatory, requests for production, and so forth. 

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IN THE MATTER OF LIBERTY FOUNDATION September 20, 2012 Case Ref #16895-1 Page 8 

1 And then you can begin exchanging your responses to 

2 those general discovery requests up and through 

3 November 30th. Which gives you about six weeks to do 

4 that, and then in December, December 21st for example, 

5 we can then go into the supplemental discovery stage, 

6 so that if there is any further supplemental discovery 

7 based on the general discovery, you can get that done 

8 between say, Mid December, 2012 through January 25th, 

9 2013. Which coincides with your discovery date on page 

10 2 of your proposed discovery plan. Does that make 

11 sense? 

12 MS. WOJCIK: It does to me your honor. 

13 THE COURT: Okay, then starting with you then 

14 Ms. Wojcik, do you know what I'm talking about in terms 

15 of the initial discovery, the general discovery, and 

16 the supplemental discovery? Have you worked in this 

17 way before? 

18 MS. WOJCIK: I haven't specifically, I think I 

19 have a rudimentary understanding of what you mean, your 

20 honor. But if you would be so kind as to elaborate on 

21 this, that would be much appreciated. Just so that we 

22 are on the same page. 

23 THE COURT: Do you have your rule book with 

24 you, so that we can follow along together? 

25 MS. WOJCIK: I do, however please give me a 

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IN THE MATTER OF LIBERTY FOUNDATION September 20, 2012 Case Ref #16895-1 Page9 

1 moment just to locate it. Yes, your Honor. 

2 THE COURT: Mr. Goldstein, do you have a copy 

3 of your court rule book with your as well? 

4 MR. GOLDSTEIN: I have the rules of practice 

5 and civil penalty hearings, is that what your Honor's 

6 referring to? 

7 THE COURT: No, I'm talking about the federal, 

8 civil rules of ... 

9 MR. GOLDSTEIN: Let me put the phone down one 

10 second and I'll get it. 

11 MS. WOJCIK: I'll need a moment, your Honor 

12 too ... I thought we were talking about the rules of ... 

13 I'm sorry, the rules of civil procedure you mean? 

14 THE COURT: Yes, because I use them in 

15 conjunction with the statutory rule. 

16 MS. WOJCIK: Your honor, can I also take a 

17 five minute break, please to locate them? 

18 THE COURT: Why don't you not do that, and you 

19 can look at the book later. In the future, if you 

20 appear before me, it's always helpful to have your rule 

21 book with you, if your asking me to explain things. 

22 MS. WOJCIK: Absolutely. 

23 THE COURT: Yes, I'll route you to the rule 

24 book right away. 

25 Mr. Goldstein, are you with us? 

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IN THE MATTER OF LIBERTY FOUNDATION September 20, 2012 Case Ref #16895-1 Page 10 

1 MR. GOLDSTEIN: I am your Honor, I put in on 

2 speaker phone. If the Court Reporter can't hear me, 

3 I"ll pick up the handset again. 

4 THE COURT: Okay. What I'll recommend that 

5 you both do, is take a look at CR-26. And it 

6 identifies specifically, under 26(a} (1) what initial 

7 disclosure covers. It also identifies the disclosure, 

8 the first disclosure of expert witnesses and the sights 

9 of written reports that experts are required to provide 

10 throughout the discovery process. And the time to 

11 disclose, generally disclose expert testimony or 

12 process. And then under rule 26-B as in boy, it then 

13 talks about general discovery, so that you can read 

14 that and kind of get a feel for the difference between 

15 those, initial disclosure that kind of give a very 

16 broad scope of information to the opposing sides, 

17 verses general discovery which starts to get into the 

18 more meat and potatoes of discovery practice. Which 

19 would involve, request for production, interrogatory, 

20 request for admission, setting up depositions, those 

21 kind of things. Where you are getting into the more 

22 detailed specific requests ,for information that are 

23 specific to the disputes that the parties are trying to 

24 resolve. 

25 And then within the ... let me see if I can 

-

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IN THE MATTER OF LIBERTY FOUNDATION September 20, 2012 Case Ref #16895-1 Page 11 

1 find the last part of ... Supplemental discovery is 

2 basically is not as clearly identified in CR-26, but I 

3 think most people who practice litigation are aware 

4 that supplemental discovery is triggered by questions 

5 that arise once your initial and general discovery are 

6 complete. For example, if you have a witness that 

7 suddenly pops up for the first time in your general 

8 discovery exchange, and you haven't had a chance to 

9 address that. You'll have a chance to clean up the 

10 plate, so to speak, in the supplemental discovery stage 

11 for those kinds of little loose ends that haven't 

12 gotten taken care of that came as a surprise to you. 

13 So, Ms. Wojcik, starting with you, does that 

14 help at all? 

15 MS. WOJCIK: It does, thank you so much.' And 

16 I will certainly look up the rule in detail, right 

17 after the conference. 

18 THE COURT: Okay. And you can utilize and I 

19 do all the time. I utilize the civil rules in 

20 conjunction with the code of federal regulation. So, 

21 you'll see the litigation order that I sent to you 

22 twice, to CR-26, CR-36, 14 CFR Section 13-220 and so 

23 forth. So, I'll always be giving you authority that 

24 you can use as guidance, if we don't talk about it 

25 specifically at the conference. 

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IN THE MATTER OF LIBERTY FOUNDATION September 20, 2012 Case Ref #16895-1 Page 12 

1 MS. WOJCIK: That sounds good, thank you. 

2 THE COURT: So, getting back .. Mr. Goldstein, 

3 you have appeared before me before, do you have any 

4 questions about that so far? 

5 MR. GOLDSTEIN: No, I don't your Honor. I 

6 didn't know we were going to be .. it's fine, I do a 

7 fairly good at federal litigation, it's fine. I just 

8 didn't know we were going to be bound to the federal 

9 rules of civil procedure and I don't know that we are. 

10 So at some point, I'd like to ask you that question. 

11 Or if we are, which portions of the federal civil 

12 procedure we're going to be bound by. 

13 I thought we were going to be bound by, and 

14 again I have no problem with the federal rules of civil 

15 procedure, but I was using the rules to practice in 

16 civil penalty hearings as a guide. So, if there might 

17 be a conflict between the two, I guess we can call you 

18 and try and resolve it, if we cant. 

19 THE COURT: Okay. I think what you will find 

20 is that the federal rule, the code of federal 

21 regulations tracks, very closely the discovery process 

22 in the civil rules of procedure. Particularly, under 

23 section 13.220. So, I utilize the court rules in 

24 conjunction with the code of federal regulations, so 

25 that people have specific guidelines to look at. It 

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IN THE MATTER OF LIBERTY FOUNDATION September 20, 2012 Case Ref #16895-1 Page 13 

1 actually, in my opinion, is quite helpful to everybody. 

2 Particularly when there is a hole in the code of 

3 federal regulations and people don't know what to do. 

4 MR. GOLDSTEIN: And I think we have, in our 

5 initial discovery request to each other, I think we've 

6 kind of sought out this information that's in 26(a) (1). 

7 THE COURT: That's right. And most people do 

8 that, just because of litigation practice in general. 

9 But for folks who are looking for guidance, I try and 

10 provide that to them. Let me see if I can find, I also 

11 think it would be helpful to you. I may not be able to 

12 find it right now, but if I see something, I'll add it 

13 into a litigation order, so that you can view 

14 additional authority for that. 

15 In any event Mr. Goldstein, staying with you, 

16 do you have any trouble or any problem with having the 

17 initial discovery, general discovery, and supplemental 

18 discovery phases, specifically identified in the 

19 litigation process? 

20 MR. GOLDSTEIN: Not at all your Honor. 

21 THE COURT: Then let's talk about the date, so 

22 I have September 21, 2012 for the last date for the 

23 parties to serve each other with initial discovery 

24 requests. And it sounds like that is going to be easy, 

25 since you have already done it. I have September 28th, 

St 

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IN THE MATTER OF LIBERTY FOUNDATION September 20, 2012 Case Ref#16895-1 Page 14 

1 2012 for the deadline to respond to the initial 

2 discovery request. According to what you both told me, 

3 your going to be early on that, that you both think 

4 you'll be done by tomorrow. Which is a week early. 

5 I then have, a tentative date of October 12, 

6 2012 for you to exchange or serve your additional 

7 discovery requests. Which would be asking for 

8 interrogatories to be answered, requesting documents, 

9 disclosing expert testimony according to the court 

10 rules and so forth. 

11 Ms. Wojcik, is October 12, 2012 an adequate 

12 time for you to get that material together and send it 

13 to Mr. Goldstein? 

14 MS. WOJCIK: I believe it's an adequate time 

15 to serve a request of a general discovery nature, yes. 

16 THE COURT: Okay, Mr. Goldstein, is that a 

17 comfortable time for you as well? 

18 MR. GOLDSTEIN: I think so your Honor. It's 

19 two weeks. 

20 THE COURT: Okay. 

21 MR. GOLDSTEIN: And if we get our initial 

22 responses tomorrow or Monday, then it will be three 

23 weeks, so it ought to be enough time. 

24 THE COURT: Okay. And then from October 12 

25 through November 30th, 2012, would be approximately six 

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IN THE MATTER OF LIBERTY FOUNDATION September 20, 2012 Case Ref #16895-1 Page 15 

1 weeks with an understanding that there is a 

2 Thanksgiving holiday in there. But would November 30, 

3 2012 be a sufficient deadline for getting your general 

4 discovery done? Starting with you Ms. Wojcik? 

5 MS. WOJCIK: I believe so, your Honor. May I 

6 just ask a question? 

7 THE COURT: Sure. 

8 MS. WOJCIK: I'm assuming that if we need to 

9 conduct depositions, those could be conducted as part 

10 of the supplemental discovery, that might arise from 

11 the general discovery after November 30th. If that's 

12 the case, then November 30th sounds like a good date to 

13 end General Discovery. 

14 THE COURT: Well, ideally, you would be doing 

15 your initial or general depositions within your general 

16 deposition deadline. 

17 MS. WOJCIK: Okay. 

1.8 THE COURT: But if you and Counsel can agree 

19 to change it, without Court approval to the procedural 

20 schedule, you would want to do that with the 

21 understanding that if you have difficulties after 

22 agreement, your in more difficult territory, because 

23 you have changed the procedural schedule. So, 

24 essentially I'm looking at November 30, 2012 as a due 

25 date to take all of the depositions that you thought 

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IN THE MATTER OF LIBERTY FOUNDATION September 20, 2012 Case Ref #16895-1 Page 16 

1 you needed to take, with the supplemental period after 

2 that time, in case you need supplemental discovery. If 

3 you think November 30th doesn't work for you, then tell 

4 me what would. 

5 MS. WOJCIK: Your Honor, if we can have maybe 

6 two more weeks after November 30th, to finish 

7 depositions. I think that we might appreciate that 

8 extension. 

9 THE COURT: Mr. Goldstein, would that be 

10 acceptable to you? That would push that date out to 

11 December 14th, 2012. 

12 MR. GOLDSTEIN: That would be find with me 

13 Judge. 

14 THE COURT: Okay. Then I'll note that the 

15 general discovery deadline is December 14th, 2012. 

16 Let's then talk about the supplemental discovery 

17 request deadline. One week after that is December 

18 21st, 2012 and we're moving into the Christmas and 

19 other holidays. Would that work for just the request 

20 deadline and then have a approximately a month after 

21 that for any other finishing up discovery? Ms. Wojcik? 

22 MS. WOJCIK: Your Honor, I would propose that 

23 we extend the deadline for serving supplemental 

24 discovery to December 28th. I know it's a holiday 

25 week, so maybe not much can be done between the 21st 

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IN THE MATTER OF LIBERTY FOUNDATION September 20, 2012 Case Ref #16895-1 Page 17 

1 and 28th, but I think that gives us a few more days to 

2 make a request if necessary. 

3 THE COURT: Mr. Goldstein, what's your 

4 position on that? 

5 MR. GOLDSTEIN: I was going to say, your 

6 Honor, that I think just one week, which would be from 

7 the 14th to the 21st probably is not enough time. And 

8 I'm just concerned that the 28th, because that is the 

9 week of Christmas ... 

10 COURT REPORTER: Your Honor, I'm having a 

11 problem hearing Mr. Goldstein. 

12 MR. GOLDSTEIN: I'm sorry. I'm just a little 

13 concerned that there might not be a lot of .. this is 

14 just for supplemental requests? 

15 THE COURT: Right. 

16 MS. WOJCIK: Correct. 

17 MR. GOLDSTEIN: So, okay. I think the 28th 

18 will be okay. 

19 THE COURT: Well and let me suggest this too, 

20 I can always push that out to January 4th, 2013. But 

21 it would ... we would then be looking at January 25, 

22 2013, according to your proposal for all discovery to 

23 be completed by that date. Ms. Wojcik, would that work 

24 for you? 

25 MS. WOJCIK: It would, I just wanted to 

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IN THE MATTER OF LIBERTY FOUNDATION September 20, 2012 Case Ref #16895-1 Page 18 

1 propose to the other party of course, with the judge's 

2 approval, that maybe it wouldn't be a bad idea to agree 

3 that we push the deadline for requesting supplemental 

4 discovery to January 4th, and then just expand the 

5 deadline for responding to the discovery to January 

6 31st. We're pushing by just a couple of days, but I 

7 think that would be helpful. 

8 THE COURT: Mr. Goldstein, what do you think? 

9 MR. GOLDSTEIN: I'm fine with that Judge. 

10 THE COURT: I'll put ... I'll note January 4, 

11 2013 is the deadline for supplemental discovery 

12 requests with January 31, 2013 is the deadline to 

13 finish taking all supplemental depositions and 

14 responding and answering all supplemental discovery 

15 requests. 

16 Then let's talk a little bit for the deadline 

17 for filing dispositive motions. I'm looking at Mid18 February for any motions to be filed. Would February 

19 15, 2013 be acceptable, that's about two weeks after 

20 your supplemental discovery is closed. Ms. Wojcik, is 

21 that acceptable? 

22 MS. WOJCIK: That is your Honor. 

23 THE COURT: Mr. Goldstein? 

24 MR. GOLDSTEIN: I would like another 

25 additional week on that. 

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IN THE MATTER OF LIBERTY FOUNDATION September 20, 2012 Case Ref #16895-1 Page 19 

1 THE COURT: Then let me take a look at my 

2 calendar. That would be February 2 2, 2 013. Okay, and 

3 then I'm going to set dates for the answer to any 

4 dispositive motions and I'll also set a date for filing 

5 the reply. Looking at my calendar, would March 8th, 

6 2013 be sufficient time to file an answer? Ms. Wojcik, 

7 starting with you. 

8 MS. WOJCIK: Sounds good your Honor. 

9 THE COURT: Mr. Goldstein, is that acceptable? 

10 MR. GOLDSTEIN: Yes, your Honor. 

11 THE COURT: Okay, and how about March 15th, 

12 that's one week for filing any reply, Ms. Wojcik? 

13 MS. WOJCIK: One moment your Honor, I'm just 

14 looking at the calendar. That would be fine. 

15 THE COURT: Mr. Goldstein? 

16 MR. GOLDSTEIN: Well ... 

17 THE COURT: Not enough time? 

18 MR. GOLDSTEIN: One week just seems a 

19 little ... I'd rather have the extra time, just in case. 

20 So, an additional ... it doesn't have to be two weeks, 

21 maybe 10 days? I know Passover is in there. 

22 THE COURT: Oh, let me take a look. 

23 MR. GOLDSTEIN: Good Friday is the 29th. 

24 THE COURT: How about March 20th, would that 

25 work? 

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IN THE MATTER OF LIBERTY FOUNDATION September 20, 2012 Case Ref #16895-1 Page 20 

1 MS. WOJCIK: That's fine by me. 

2 THE COURT: Mr. Goldstein? 

3 MR. GOLDSTEIN: March 20th would be okay, 

4 yes. First day of Spring. 

5 THE COURT: Okay. Then let's talk ... I once 

6 did an oral argument after getting these types of 

7 motions, if no dispositive motions are filed, then I 

8 automatically convert the oral argument to a telephone 

9 conference for a pretrial status conference. I found 

10 that that works really well and it is pretty efficient 

11 because everybody already has it on their calendar. 

12 So, if the replies are in by March 20th, how about the 

13 week of either March 24th or March 31 for a one our 

14 telephone conference. Ms. Wojcik, do you have any 

15 preference? 

16 MS. WOJCIK: No, your honor, I just realized, 

17 I apologize, I'm looking at the 2012 calendar, not 

18 2013. But I don't have any conflicts at this point so 

19 I'll adjust. 

20 THE COURT: Okay, Mr. Goldstein, how about 

21 you? 

22 MR. GOLDSTEIN: No problem, except I note the 

23 29th is good Friday. 

24 MS. WOJCIK: Oh, then if it is your Honor, 

25 then I would appreciate it if we could do this on a 

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IN THE MATTER OF LIBERTY FOUNDATION September 20, 2012 Case Ref #16895-1 Page 21 

1 different date. 

2 THE COURT: Okay well, I had given you a two 

3 week time frame, so do you want to do it before Good 

4 Friday or after Good Friday? 

5 MS. WOJCIK: Before Good Friday would be fine 

6 with me. 

7 THE COURT: Mr. Goldstein, any preferences? 

8 MR. GOLDSTEIN: It's fine with me too your 

9 Honor. 

10 THE COURT: Let me take a look ... I have to 

11 give myself time to read everything once you filed it, 

12 so let me see what I have. Why don't we try for 

13 Wednesday, March 27th and I think you both ... no, Ms. 

14 Wojcik you're in Chicago, is that right? 

15 MS. WOJCIK: I am. 

16 THE COURT: Okay, so your one hour behind 

17 Eastern standard time? 

18 MS. WOJCIK: Correct. 

19 THE COURT: Do you have any preference for 

20 time on Wednesday, March 27, 2013? 

21 MR. WOJCIK: No, your Honor, I'll adjust. 

22 THE COURT: Mr. Goldstein, any preference? 

23 MR. GOLDSTEIN: No, I'm fine your Honor. 

24 THE COURT: Why don't we do this then, at 

25 11:00 a.m. Eastern time. That would be 10:00 a.m. for 

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IN THE MATTER OF LIBERTY FOUNDATION September 20, 2012 Case Ref #16895-1 Page 22 

1 you Ms. Wojcik. 

2 MS. WOJCIK: Yes. 

3 THE COURT: And then shortly after that, I'm 

4 looking at your material, let me just take a second 

5 look at your proposed dates. Final witness list, let's 

6 talk about a final witness list after that, and the 

7 reason I like to do that is because if you prevail on a 

8 dispositive motion, either in whole or in part, that 

9 changes how many witnesses you're going to call and how 

10 much evidence you need to mark and submit. And I'd 

11 rather Counsel have less to do, than more to do if 

12 whenever possible. So, let's assume that I issue a 

13 decision within a week of March 27th, probably what we 

14 need to do .. how about if we set April lOth ... for I 

15 need to just double count that. How about April 15th, 

16 excuse me for the submission and exchange of witness 

17 list and exhibits? Ms. Wojcik, would that work? 

18 MS. WOJCIK: Yes. 

19 THE COURT: And Mr. Goldstein? 

20 MR. GOLDSTEIN: Yes, your Honor. 

21 THE COURT: Okay, let's talk next about the 

22 hearing itself. I know there is a venue issue and I'll 

23 address that. But let's talk first about how many days 

24 that you think this hearing might take, assuming that 

25 no dispositive motions are made or that might be 

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IN THE MATTER OF LIBERTY FOUNDATION September 20, 2012 Case Ref #16895-1 Page 23 

1 granted. 

2 (Inaudible) 

3 MR. GOLDSTEIN: Your honor can I ask a 

4 question for clarification? 

5 THE COURT: Sure. 

6 MR. GOLDSTEIN: When you say final witness 

7 list, do you mean witness and exhibits list? 

8 THE COURT: Yes. Where you have a list of the 

9 witnesses you intend to call, a short statement of the 

10 testimony from such witness, if you have an updated 

11 resume from an expert, to submit that, and then provide 

12 a copy to the opposing party of the documents that you 

13 intend to offer. Premarked provided ... per 

14 instructions in the litigation order I sent. 

15 MR. GOLDSTEIN: Okay. 

16 THE COURT: Okay, so Ms. Wojcik, starting with 

17 you, how long do you think this hearing would last? 

18 MS. WOJCIK: I believe we need at least two 

19 days, your honor. 

20 THE COURT: And would that be just for your 

21 case in chief, or everything? 

22 MS. WOJCIK: No, I was thinking about 

23 everything. 

24 THE COURT: Mr. Goldstein, what is your 

25 position? 

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IN THE MATTER OF LIBERTY FOUNDATION September 20, 2012 Case Ref #16895-1 Page 24 

1 MR. GOLDSTEIN: I would say two to three days, 

2 your Honor. 

3 THE COURT: Okay, so let's err on the side of 

4 caution at least for now, and say three days. In terms 

5 of venue, I have had some information on venue that has 

6 been provided by both parties. I think it may be a 

7 little too soon to talk about venues, since you haven't 

8 done any significant discovery. And the reason I say 

9 that is, because it seems to me that it's a little too 

10 soon for me to make a decision about who is least 

11 convenienced or who is th most inconvenienced at this 

12 point. Since you don't even know who your planning to 

13 call. And what I would like to do is differ the issue 

14 of venue, until at least the general discovery is done. 

15 So that I can find out more specifically from both of 

16 you, how the trial is shaping up, in terms of your 

17 discovery and what kinds of (Inaudible) are intended on 

18 both parties in terms of the choice of venue. This 

19 would at least give me an idea of whether there are 

20 things available to the parties in terms of admissions, 

21 stipulations, written testimony, documentary evidence, 

22 and so forth that might eliminate some of the problems 

23 that have been raised at least in the initial venue 

24 suggestion. 

25 So, let's talk about three days and a 

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IN THE MATTER OF LIBERTY FOUNDATION September 20, 2012 Case Ref#16895-1 Page 25 

1 location yet to be decided, in terms on the time on our 

2 calendars. So, if we have April 15th, 2013 for the 

3 exchange of exhibits, starting with you Ms. Wojcik ... 

4 I'm sorry, I'm getting a little, my computer has just 

5 gone a little screwy, so I need to fix that. Okay, I 

6 think I got that fixed. From April 15th, let's talk 

7 about ... I'm going to look at my calendar. I have, I'm 

8 going to suggest a couple different weeks and then 

9 check in with both of you. I have the week of May 12th 

10 open, I also have the week of May 19th open and the 

11 week of May 26th open. Ms. Wojcik, do you have block12 outs, or black-outs in any of those weeks that would 

13 prevent you from attending a three day trial? 

14 MS. WOJCIK: I do not at this point, your 

15 Honor. 

16 THE COURT: Mr. Goldstein, how about you? 

17 MR. GOLDSTEIN: No, your Honor. I would just 

18 note that the 27th is Memorial day, but .. so travel 

19 might be kind of difficult. No, I don't have anything 

20 on my calendar for those weeks. 

21 THE COURT: Let's then .. thank you for 

22 pointing that out. Let's choose the week for May 19th. 

23 The 27th is Memorial Day okay, so I need to back track 

24 for that weekend. I have on my calendar, Mr. Goldstein, 

25 that there may be some religious holidays on May 15th, 

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IN THE MATTER OF LIBERTY FOUNDATION September 20, 2012 Case Ref #16895-1 Page 26 

1 and May 16th are those holidays that you might have on 

2 your calendar as well? 

3 MR. GOLDSTEIN: Actually I don't see those, 

4 on this calendar that I'm look at. 

5 THE COURT: Okay. Let's look at, actually I 

6 can do May ... Just so you know I have an attorney who 

7 observes Jewish holidays and he's advised me that May 

8 15th, 2013 and May 16th, 2013 are Jewish holidays. But 

9 if neither of you observe those holidays, then we can 

10 set it for May 12th, the week of May 12th. I'm just 

11 concerned, I just want to make sure that week is okay. 

12 MS. WOJCIK: I just want to say, I don't have 

13 any conflicts to the week of May 12th. But I'll defer 

14 to Mr. Goldstein. 

15 MR. GOLDSTEIN: I don't .. I'm not sure which 

16 holidays they are so, it's okay with me. 

17 THE COURT: Okay, well then let's set this for 

18 May 14th to begin with, May 15,. and May 16th to end. 

19 And I usually start at 9:00 and end at 5:00, just as a 

20 default. Although there may be times when the parties 

21 need to tweak that a little bit. And then on May 13th, 

22 we can set that as a travel day for our calendars. And 

23 May 17th as a travel day. If we start on May 14, then 

24 the question is, do you want me to give you a date to 

25 file pre-hearing briefs, if you choose to do that? And 

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IN THE MATTER OF LIBERTY FOUNDATION September 20, 2012 Case Ref #16895-1 Page 27 

1 if so, would the date of April 30th be acceptable? Ms. 

2 Wojcik? 

3 MS. WOJCIK: It would to me your Honor. It 

4 gives us a week after to find a list of witnesses and 

5 exhibits are exchanged. That would work for me. 

6 THE COURT: Okay, Mr. Goldstein, how about 

7 you? 

8 MR. GOLDSTEIN: Me as well, your Honor. 

9 THE COURT: Okay, then April 30th it is. And 

10 then let's talk about a date to convene to discuss and 

11 decide about venues. I'm going back to the discovery 

12 schedule and we may be able to address this either in 

13 Mid-December or Mid-January. And that would be .. that 

14 would give people enough time to talk about travel 

15 schedules with witnesses if needed. How about the week 

16 of January 7th for telephone conference on the issue of 

17 venue? Ms. Wojcik, is that acceptable? 

18 MS. WOJCIK: It is your Honor. I just would 

19 like to make a note on this. I've been told by my 

20 supervisors that if it is decided that the venue will 

21 happen in Georgia, then we may have to transfer the 

22 case to that office. So, because of that contingency, 

23 the sooner we decide the venue, the more we would 

24 appreciate it. But September 7th sounds .. I mean, I 

25 don't have any conflicts, so if that's the best date 

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IN THE MATTER OF LIBERTY FOUNDATION September 20, 2012 Case Ref #16895-1 Page 28 

1 for everyone, I'll adjust. 

2 THE COURT: Well, let me ask you this Ms. 

3 Wojcik. I've read everyone's venue materials, I 

4 haven't received any information from you or Mr. 

5 Goldstein about specifically who you are planning to 

6 call, how much it would cost to go to the alternate 

7 forums suggested by the opposing party. And why your 

8 request for venue should trump one way or the other. 

9 And so, it makes it very difficult for this 

10 Court to make a decision, that's in the interest of all 

11 the parties and in the interest of efficiency and 

12 administrative justice, without that kind of 

13 information. 

14 MR. GOLDSTEIN: Your Honor, if I may. I'm 

15 sorry, I didn't mean to ... 

16 I think in my suggestion, I did list four or 

17 five witnesses all of whom, let's see I listed five 

18 witnesses that I know of now, all of whom that live in 

19 the Atlanta area. So, I believe I did provide some 

20 information. 

21 THE COURT: Yes, I wasn't talking to you. 

22 MR. GOLDSTEIN: I'm sorry. 

23 THE COURT: Yes, I was talking to Ms. Wojcik 

24 first. I'll get to you in a minute. 

25 

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IN THE MATTER OF LIBERTY FOUNDATION September 20, 2012 Case Ref #16895-1 Page 29 

1 THE COURT: What I'm saying to Ms. Wojcik for 

2 example, is that obviously we have a venue issue that's 

3 in dispute. And typically when a court looks at 

4 venues, it looks at not only what the parties prefer, 

I 

5 but also what the parties are propoting in terms of 

6 witnesses to be called, the cost of]calling those 

7 

::::::·::~ a::r::::l:::y~ ::e:fy::aj::~ ::p::::eyou are 8 

9 witnesses have to be taken out of tteir local. It's 

I 

10 also helpful in looking at venue, i1 the parties have 

11 already addressed to full resolutioJ, alternate ways to 

12 pare down the testimonial evidence, by stipulations, by 

13 admissions, by interrogatories, andJso forth. I 

14 So, the tenor of what thelcase looks like 

15 today, when it broadly addressed bylthe parties, can 

16 change radically after discovery isldone and you find 

17 out that the five witnesses that yol were planning to 

18 call, actually has been whittled do1n into two 

19 witnesses that you were planning tolcall. That's what i 

20 I'm talking about, in terms of the fenue disput. So, 

21 it seems premature to me, for this ~ourt to making a 

22 ruling on the issue of venue, when tou haven't I 

23 finished, actually haven't even statted your general 

24 discovery to look at those kinds of issues. And once 

25 you have general discovery done, it's very helpful then 

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IN THE MATTER OF LIBERTY FOUNDATION September 20, 2012 Case Ref #16895-1 Page 30 

1 at that time, to take a second look at it and say, 

2 "Okay, I may have had five witnesses in September, 2012 

3 that I thought I was going to call, but now that I've 

4 done general discovery, it turns out that I only need 

5 three witnesses and of those three, only one is an 

6 expert. And that one expert will only need to take an 

7 hour on the stand and I can fly him in and out, in one 

8 day. And the cost of that is going to be x, y, and z." 

9 And when both parties are able to say that, then I have 

10 a much better basis upon which to review. The conflict 

11 between the parties, in terms of the venue, the 

12 convenience, and the cost, so that I can address that 

13 dispute in a better informed manner. 

14 So, your saying to me Ms. Wojcik, that you 

15 want to get the venue issue addressed as soon as 

16 possible. I understand that. January 7th may be too 

17 late for you. So, do you want to look at it 

18 potentially sooner, and how much sooner, how much time 

19 do you think your going to need in the general 

20 discovery phase to get more information, so that you 

21 can then funnel a better sense of fact to this court in 

22 support of your motion, pro a Chicago venue? 

23 MS. WOJCIK: Your honor, first I would just 

24 like to say, I understand your explanation and I 

25 actually appreciate it. I haven't thought about it 

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IN THE MATTER OF LIBERTY FOUNDATION September 20,2012 Case Ref#16895-1 Page 31 

1 this way, to be completely frank. But it does make 

2 sense. So, thank you for the explanation. 

3 When I say sooner, I'm not necessarily 

4 objecting to the date of January 7, I'm merely making a 

5 note that if maybe we can do it by the end of December. 

6 Even, I think the general discovery responses are due 

7 December 14th. I know that there was sort of Holiday 

8 time, but if it would be possible to discuss the venue 

9 issue before shortly after the 14th, when all the 

10 general discovery is due. I think I would appreciate 

11 that. If it's a problem, then we'll adjust to January 

12 7th. 

13 THE COURT: Okay, Mr. Goldstein, do you have 

14 any objections to pushing this up into December? 

15 MR. GOLDSTEIN: Let me just look at my 

16 calendar, your honor. I don't your Honor and the 

17 reason I don't is because I believe Ms. Wojcik and I 

18 have a pretty good Idea who we're going to call as 

19 witnesses. We had a, if you want to call it a sister 

20 case, that was before the NTSB that involved the 

21 mechanic who did some work and made some log entries, 

22 so we've been through a case already that was settled. 

23 So we've disclosed, in that case, who are witnesses 

24 were going to be and so forth. And we've taken 

25 depositions in that case, or at least I did. And I was 

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IN THE MATTER OF LIBERTY FOUNDATION September 20, 2012 Case Ref #16895-1 Page 32 

1 going to bring that to your attention at some point. 

2 And in our discovery responses that are due a week from 

3 tomorrow, we've asked and we will respond to who we 

4 think our witnesses are going to be, and with a brief 

5 statement as to what they are going to say. But I 

6 think we know anyway, but we're going .to do that again. 

7 So, I don't have a problem with moving it up, certainly 

8 to convenience Ms. Wojcik, it's fine with me. 

9 THE COURT: Okay, so we may even be able to do 

10 it before December 14th, 2012, is what I'm hearing from 

11 you? 

12 MR. GOLDSTEIN: I think that we have a ... you 

13 know things will come up I believe, but I think we have 

14 a pretty good idea based on what we already know who we 

15 may be calling. I've deposed two FAA People, they may 

16 list some others, I don't know and that may change 

17 things, but ... yes, I don't have a problem with it. If 

18 we need to change it later on, we can call you. 

19 THE COURT: Okay, then I'm going to suggest we 

20 try and set it during your general discovery exchange. 

21 Because it sounds like you have the ability at this 

22 point, to at least tentatively identify what you can 

23 stipulate to and find out to a certain degree, how much 

24 the cost will be for moving out of your local. Ms. 

25 Wojcik, would that be about a fair statement of where 

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IN THE MATTER OF LIBERTY FOUNDATION September 20, 2012 Case Ref #16895-1 Page 33 

1 you are right now? 

2 MS. WOJCIK: Yes, your Honor. We would have 

3 to do some work to produce cost estimates. And I'm not 

4 quite sure what kind of evidence for that you would 

5 want to see, but if these are just estimates, I think 

6 we could do those during the general discovery. 

7 THE COURT: I think it would be a fairly 

8 standard way of addressing cost for example, I could 

9 tell you that it would cost me approximately X amount 

10 of money to have a round-trip ticket to go to Chicago. 

11 I can tell you it cost me X amount of money to bill a 

12 hotel for 4 nights, because I would be coming in on 

13 Monday, staying Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday, leaving 

14 Friday. And where that would be .. but it's a 

15 reasonable cost, it's a government per diem for 

16 example. You know, those kinds of things and it 

17 involves going on the internet or calling an airline, 

18 calling a hotel, talking about general meals if your 

19 witness has to stay for more than one day, 

20 transportation, those kinds of things. If your 

21 actually paying for experts, which the FAA might not 

22 do, but the respondents might. Then the cost of the 

23 expert's fee and how much the experts charging, either 

24 by the half day or the day and so forth. Those kinds 

25 of things are very helpful to find out. Does that make 

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IN THE MATTER OF LIBERTY FOUNDATION September 20, 2012 Case Ref #16895-1 Page 34 

1 sense, Ms. Wojcik? 

2 MS. WOJCIK: Yes, and we will do that. 

3 THE COURT: Okay, thank you. I'm looking at 

4 the week of October 28th at this point. Which should 

5 give you plenty of time, between now and the 28th, 

6 unless I hear a gasp from someone. Which I may have 

7 just heard? 

8 MS. WOJCIK: No, I'm sorry, I just took a deep 

9 breath. But it wasn't a gasp. 

10 THE COURT: So, the week of October 28 is too 

11 soon, do you want me to look at November, Ms. Wojcik? 

12 MS. WOJCIK: You know, I'll defer to the other 

13 side, but as I said in the beginning, it's frankly in 

14 the FAA's interest to resolve the issue, one way or the 

15 other as soon as it's reasonable to do so, so if 

16 everyone is okay with October 28th, I believe that by 

17 that time we can look at some costs and provide that 

18 information, so that we can all have a discussion about 

19 that. 

20 THE COURT: Okay, Mr. Goldstein, is that 

21 acceptable to you, to set a conference on that week? 

22 MR. GOLDSTEIN: If it was at the end of the 

23 week, your Honor. I have a conflict the 29th and 30th, 

24 which are Monday and Tuesday. And then the following 

25 week, I have a conflict the 7th and 8th. So, if it was 

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IN THE MATTER OF LIBERTY FOUNDATION September 20, 2012 Case Ref #16895-1 Page 35 

1 the end of the week, the 2nd. I think that would be .. 

2 you know, to the extent you can predict airfare six 

3 months in advance. I think that's pretty impossible. 

4 THE COURT: I'm not asking you to predict, I'm 

5 asking to contact the airlines and find out what they 

6 are going to quote you. I don't know about you, but I 

7 scheduled airfare in advance and so it's clear that 

8 sometimes if you buy a ticket, very close in time to 

9 the time that you want to go, those costs go up. It's 

10 also clear that they often stay fairly standard up 

11 until a point of about 2 weeks prior to you leaving or 

12 going. So, I just want to get a general idea from both 

13 of you, how much you think it's costing your client, if 

14 you have to go outside of your preferred local. 

15 Because that's one of the things that I'm suppose to be 

16 looking at in terms of the convenience and cost to each 

17 party that's seeking a different local. 

18 So, how about if we look at Friday November 

19 2nd, again at 11:00 a.m. in the morning, does that work 

20 for you Ms. Wojcik? 

21 MS. WOJCIK: It does. 

22 THE COURT: Okay, and Mr. Goldstein? 

23 MR. GOLDSTEIN: Yes, your Honor. 

24 THE COURT: Okay, November 2nd, 2012 at 11:00 

25 for a telephone conference, and then let's talk about 

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IN THE MATTER OF LIBERTY FOUNDATION September 20, 2012 Case Ref #16895-1 Page 36 

1 filing some additional materials with the court. Could 

2 you all have your materials filed by October 24, Ms. 

3 Wojcik? 

4 MS. WOJCIK: Yes, your Honor. 

5 THE COURT: Mr. Goldstein? 

6 MR. GOLDSTEIN: By materials, you mean the 

7 cost? 

8 THE COURT: Yes, I would like some 

9 supplemental information from both of you regarding why 

10 you think the costs are prohibited for your client. 

11 Your talking about, not only what you prefer and where 

12 people are located, but also how much it's going to 

13 cost you if you are the losing party on the venue issue 

14 essentially. So that I can compare and contrast who .. 

15 what the costs are for the parties. If Mr. Goldstein, 

16 you have five witnesses and it's going to cost you 

17 $1500 and the FAA has three witnesses and it's going to 

18 cost them $400, I have to take that into account, one 

19 way or the other. 

20 MR. GOLDSTEIN: Okay, I have no problem with 

21 that. 

22 THE COURT: Okay, so I will set October 24, 

23 2012 as the deadline fo reach party to file 

24 supplemental materials on the venue issue. Now, Ms. 

25 Wojcik and Mr. Goldstein, I'll just note that I'm going 

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IN THE MATTER OF LIBERTY FOUNDATION September 20, 2012 Case Ref #16895-1 Page 37 

1 to be sending you out a standard litigation procedural 

2 order, which talks about requests for modification, if 

3 you want a formal modification of the litigation 

4 scheduling order. It will talk about filing a motion 

5 regarding discovery disputes within 10 calendar days 

6 after service of the deficit discovery response or 

7 after the response is due and you didn't get it for 

8 example. I say this, not only because I anticipate 

9 that's going to be a problem in this case, but just so 

10 you know what this order is going to say. 

11 If you do make a motion to compel discovery, 

12 I do expect you to have an informal conference with 

13 each other first, according to CR-37 and to note that 

14 you had that informal conference to try and resolve the 

15 discovery dispute before you bring it the court's 

16 attention. In addition, if you have a discovery 

17 dispute, I do want the moving party to consult with the 

18 opposing party to talk about some calendar dates to put 

19 it on my calendar for oral argument. And then to 

20 contact my office, so that you can get that set as soon 

21 as possible, so that I can help you out as fast as 

22 possible. And that way we can keep on the discovery 

23 schedule and not have to reschedule everything. 

24 In addition, I identified Cody L. Smith as an 

25 observer today. He's also an attorney in this office 

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IN THE MATTER OF LIBERTY FOUNDATION September 20, 2012 Case Ref #16895-1 Page 38 

1 who is available to answer questions about the order if 

2 you get it and don't understand anything. And I'll put 

3 his name and phone number in the order as well. 

4 Ms. Wojcik starting with you, is there 

5 anything else that we need to address for your client 

6 today? Or any questions you might have? 

7 MS. WOJCIK: There is nothing I can think of 

8 my Honor, your Honor. 

9 THE COURT: Thank you. Mr. Goldstein, 

10 anything you would like to ask about or any matters we 

11 still need to address for your client? 

12 MR. GOLDSTEIN: Not that I can think of, Your 

13 Honor. 

14 THE COURT: Okay, thank you both very much for 

15 your time today, it appears our business is complete. 

16 I'll be issuing this order within either today or 

17 tomorrow. With that, I look forward to talking to you 

18 on November 2nd, 2012, regarding venue and I'll look 

19 forward to getting your materials. We can go off the 

20 record at this time. I wish you a good day. 

21 MR. GOLDSTEIN: Thank you, your Honor. 

22 MS. WOJCIK: Thank You. 

23 (WHEREUPON, the telephone conference was 

2 4 concluded. ) 

25 

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IN THE MATTER OF LIBERTY FOUNDATION September 20, 2012 Case Ref #16895-1 Page 39 

1 CAPTION 

2 

3 The foregoing matter was taken on the date, and at the 

4 and place set out on the Title page hereof. 

5 

6 It was requested that the matter be taken by the 

7 and that the same be reduced to typewritten form. 

8 

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IN THE MATTER OF LIBERTY FOUNDATION September 20, 2012 Case Ref #16895-1 Page 40 

1 

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CERTIFICATE OF REPORTER 

COMMONWEALTH OF VIRGINIA AT LARGE: 

I hereby certify that I am a Notary Public for 

the State of Virginia at Large, and hereby certify 

that the foregoing constitutes a true and accurate 

transcript to the best of their ability. 

Further, this is to certify that I am not an 

employee of nor related to any of the parties, and I 

have no financial interest in the outcome of this 

matter. 

JACOB MACE 

COURT REPORTER / NOTARY 

NOTARY REGISTRATION NUMBER: 7508361 

My Commission Expires: September 30, 2015 

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IN THE MATTER OF LIBERTY FOUNDATION September 20, 2012 Case Ref #16895-1 Page 41 

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....----------------------------~----------

IN THE MATTER OF LIBERTY FOUNDATION September20, 2012 Case Ref#16895-1 Page 42 

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IN THE MATTER OF LIBERTY FOUNDATION September 20, 2012 Case Ref #16895-1 Page 43 

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IN THE MATTER OF LIBERTY FOUNDATION September 20, 2012 Case Ref #16895-1 Page 44 

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IN THE MATTER OF LIBERTY FOUNDATION September 20, 2012 Case Ref #16895-1 Page 45 

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IN THE MATTER OF LIBERTY FOUNDATION September20, 2012 Case Ref#16895-1 Page 46 

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IN THE MATTER OF LIBERTY FOUNDATION September 20, 2012 Case Ref #16895-1 Page 47 

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The Reporters Group CQUR'[ 

County ~ fAEPQRTERS,Inc. Court Reporting, Video 

Stephenson, VA ~ & Utigatlon Technology 

www.reportersgroup.com. Vldeography litigation Technology www.advlegaltech.com 

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IN THE MATTER OF LIBERTY FOUNDATION September 20, 2012 Case Ref #16895-1 Page 48 

26:15 27:6 

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The Reporters Group 

Stephenson, VA 

www.reportersgroup~g,m. 

County r6c COURT:.· EPORTERS.tnc. 

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Court Reporting, Video 

& litigation Technology 

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Corporate: Historic Jordan Springs t 1160 Jordan Springs Road t Stephenson, VA 22656 

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IN THE MATTER OF LIBERTY FOUNDATION September 20, 2012 Case Ref#16895-1 Page 49 

27:11 28:14 

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The Reporters Group 

Stephenson, VA 

www.reportersgroup.gm} 

COUR't County ~ · EPORTERS.1nc. 

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& litigation Technology 

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Corporate: Historic Jordan Springs t 1160 Jordan Springs Road t Stephenson, VA 22656 

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IN THE MATTER OF LIBERTY FOUNDATION September 20, 2012 Case Ref #16895-1 Page 50 

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Corporate: Historic Jordan Springs t 1160 Jordan Springs Road t Stephenson, VA 22656 

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IN THE MATTER OF LIBERTY FOUNDATION September 20, 2012 Case Ref #16895-1 Page 51 

N 

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The Reporters Group ccoountuy RT~EPORTERS Court Reporting, Video 

Stephenson, VA I' ~ • Inc. & litigation Technology 

www.reportersgroup.com Videography Litigation Technology www.advlegaltech.com 

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IN THE MATTER OF LIBERTY FOUNDATION September20, 2012 Case Ref#16895-1 Page 52 

planning 6:7 6:10 

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The Reporters Group CcoQuntUy RT~EPQRTERS Court Reporting, Video 

Stephenson, VA I-' ~ • Inc. & litigation Technology 

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IN THE MATTER OF LIBERTY FOUNDATION September 20, 2012 Case Ref#16895-1 Page 53 

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The Reporters Group countuy R't~EPORTERS. Inc. Court Reporting. Video 

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IN THE MATTER OF LIBERTY FOUNDATION September 20, 2012 Case Ref #16895-1 Page 54 

settled 31:22 

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The Reporters Group CcoQuntUy RTrliEPORT. ERS court Reporting, Video 

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IN THE MATTER OF LIBERTY FOUNDATION September 20, 2012 Case Ref #16895-1 Page 55 

talks 10:13 37:2 

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35:25 38:23 

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7:13 14:4 

14:22 32:3 38:17 

track 5:23 25:23 

tracks 12:21 

transfer 27:21 

transportation 

33:20 

travel 25:18 

26:22 26:23 

27:14 29:8 

trial 5:4 5:15 

24:16 25:13 

tried 5:6 

triggered 11:4 

trouble 13:16 

trump 28:8 

try 3:21 7:12 

12:18 13:9 21:12 

32:20 37:14 

trying 10:23 

Tuesday 33:13 

34:24 

turns 30:4 

tweak 26:21 

twice 11:22 

types 5:14 20:6 

typically 5:11 

29:3 

u 

understand 

30:16 30:24 38:2 

understanding 

8:19 15:1 15:21 

unless 4:16 34:6 

updated 23:10 

upon 30:10 

usually 26:19 

utilize 11:18 

11:19 12:23 

v 

variety 3:20 

venue 3:18 

22:22 24:5 

24:5 24:14 24:18 

24:23 27:17 

27:20 27:23 28:3 

28:8 29:2 

29:10 29:20 

29:22 30:11 

30:15 30:22 31:8 

36:13 36:24 

38:18 

venues 24:7 27:11 

29:4 

verses 10:17 

view 13:13 

w 

waiting 6:16 

wasn't 7:13 28:21 

34:9 

The Reporters Group ccoountuy R'T'~· EPORTERS Court Reporting, VidEo 

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