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SWORN TESTIMONY , PLLC 2404 Doubletree Court , Lexington , Kentucky 40514 ( 859 ) 533 - 8961 1 U.S. ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION AGENCY PUBLIC HEARINGS REGARDING EPA OBJECTIONS TO 36 DRAFT NPDES PERMITS FOR DISCHARGES ASSO CIATED WITH COAL MINING

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Transcript of Public Hearing held on June 7, 2012, commenc ing at 12 noon

Eastern Kentucky Exp osition Center 126 Main Street Pikeville, Kentucky

Lisa M. Schwarze, RPR, KyCCR Registered Professi onal Reporter1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25

SWORN TESTIMONY , PLLC 2404 Doubletree Court , Lexington , Kentucky 40514 ( 859 ) 533 - 8961 2 MS. MacPHERSON: Welc ome everyone. My name is Charlie MacPherson, and I'm going to be the facilitator for this afternoon's hearing. My job today is to try to get as many people to share their comments and to maint ain a safe and secure environment for all of us. So to help achieve those objectives, I just want to review a couple of the ground rules. Everyone should have received or picked up an ag enda that are on the back tables or as you came in. If you don't have one, you may want to get one in the back. It has the ground rules on it. The first thing we wa nt to do is just make sure we show courtesy to all the speakers and minimize any disruptions. All that's going to do is slow down the proc ess and we may not be able to hear from everyone today. Also, for the speakers we have set time limits; ag ain, just so we can hear from as many people as possible. And please adhere to those time limits. We will be having a clock up on the screen to help you with that, so you shouldn't have an y trouble there. Also, if you have any cell phones or pagers, if you could please turn th ose to vibrate or off. And if you will be ha ving any conversations or1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25

SWORN TESTIMONY , PLLC 2404 Doubletree Court , Lexington , Kentucky 40514 ( 859 ) 533 - 8961 3 need to make a call, please go outside of the hearing area; again, just as a courtesy for speakers. As you can see, to my left we do have sign language interpreters today for anyone who may need that service. I don't think, as far as I know, that there is anyone that needs it. But if there is, could you p lease stand up so we can make sure that you are clo se to the stage. Okay, I don't see anyone. But we will keep them for the first part of the hearing just to make sure we have that covered. Also on your agenda, on the back side is a form that you can use to submit any written comments you have today. You can leave those comments out by the registr ation table. I want everyone to know that these comments as well as your oral statements today or any other materials that you submit will be made part of the administrative record. We will also be making a full transcript of today's hearing. So that if you are speaking, please sp eak very clearly so the court reporter can ca pture all of that information. We will be calling the speakers in groups, in1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25

SWORN TESTIMONY , PLLC 2404 Doubletree Court , Lexington , Kentucky 40514 ( 859 ) 533 - 8961 4 blocks of 10 to 20. And when I call your number, I'd like you to go to the back area, near the entrance where you came in, where you'll meet with our facilitation staff and they'll just give you a briefing on the process for making statements. So at this time, I would like the first block of 1 to 20. And you should have, if you have signed up to speak, you sho uld have a blue form. And even if you signed up on-line to speak, at the registration table you shou ld have picked up a blue form. Okay, so those with numbers 1 through 20. Please go to the back right of the room, to the person holding up the 1 and 2 sign. And I'll be giving more instructions when it is time to make the oral statements, j ust to be clear to everyone. But at this time, I would like to turn it over to Mr. Jim Giatt ina, who is the presiding officer for this hearing. MR. GIATTINA: Thank you, Charlie. Good afternoon. I'm Jim Giattin a. I'm Director of the Water Protection Divi sion for the U.S. Environmental Pr otection Agency's regional office in Atlanta, Ge orgia. The EPA's Regional Administrator has designated me to conduct this1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25

SWORN TESTIMONY , PLLC 2404 Doubletree Court , Lexington , Kentucky 40514 ( 859 ) 533 - 8961 5 public hearing. I ha ve with me this evening Mr. Mark Nuhfer, who is chi ef of our municipal and industrial permit section. And I certainly want to thank the City of -- of -- of -- AUDIENCE MEMBERS: Pikeville. MR. GIATTINA: Pikevi lle. Thank you. For their -- I should pro bably use my glasses. The City of Pikeville for their hospitality in allowing us to conduct this hearing. Let me start by thank ing you for taking the time to be here this afternoon. We recognize that coal mining operations are critically important in Kentucky and for meeting ou r energy needs as a nation. We recognize that many of you are worried about jobs. We also know that you are concerned about the impacts mining ma y have on your health and environment. The purpose of this hearing is to listen to your con cerns, especially as they relate to the 36 permits the EPA has objected to that are the subject of this hearing. I want to note that E PA and the Kentucky Energy and Environment Cabi net have been working over the past two years to identify a set of common sense practice s and appropriate permit conditions that we be lieve will protect and1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25

SWORN TESTIMONY , PLLC 2404 Doubletree Court , Lexington , Kentucky 40514 ( 859 ) 533 - 8961 6 improve water quality while addressing the industry's concern for clarity and cost effectiveness. Most of the se practices have been developed by experts here in Kentucky and are beginning to be implemented at local mines. For example, some mining compan ies are redesigning mines to reduce the number, size, and location of fills. They are more carefully monitoring pollution levels of instrea m biology at their mines and using realt ime adaptive management techniques to prevent probl ems downstream. They are beginning to find , target, and isolate specific sources of polluta nts to keep them away from the water. And this is the kind of innovation and care that wi ll help ensure coal mining remains a vibrant part of the local economy. Our desire at EPA is for the Commonwealth to move forward and issue permits that require these kinds of innovative approac hes and that have appropriate pollutant limit s to protect water quality. Let me briefly give you some additional background information that is important for you to understand as you make your oral or written comments. The permits we are discussing are water1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25

SWORN TESTIMONY , PLLC 2404 Doubletree Court , Lexington , Kentucky 40514 ( 859 ) 533 - 8961 7 discharge permits, known as National Pollutant Discharge Elimination Syste m, or NPDES, permits. These are required by the Clean Water Act. An NPDES permit is the b asic tool for controlling water pollution, and it contains conditions and limitations to protect wate r quality and its many uses, such as fishing, swimming, canoeing, and as a source of drinking water. The Clean Water Act requires that NPDES permits include pollutant limits stringent enough to ensure that discharges do not cause violations of the Commonwealth's own water quality standards. As part of the permit ting process, Kentucky provides copies of draft NP DES permits for EPA -- to EPA for our review. And since August of 2009, based on information provid ed by the Kentucky Division of Water, the Division has issued individual NPDES permits for approximately 87 surface mining projects and 28 underground mines or coal preparation plants. Additionally, the Division has allowed approx imately 2,500 new and existing coal mining projects to proceed under its general permit authority. Over the past two years, the EPA has objected to the issuance of a number of permits drafted by the Division, 36 of1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25

SWORN TESTIMONY , PLLC 2404 Doubletree Court , Lexington , Kentucky 40514 ( 859 ) 533 - 8961 8 which remain and are the subject of this hearing. While the majority of mining projects that need NPDES permits in Kentucky have received authorization to go f orward, the EPA remains concerned with mining discharges. In 2010, the Kentucky Division of Water estimated that at least 1,522 miles of Kentucky's rivers and streams are threatened or impaired due to mining. Recent studies, as well as the experience of coalfield communities, point to new environmental challenges largely unknown even 10 yea rs ago. Sediment, salts, and metals that runoff from poor mining practices can destroy the habitat that sustains fish and other forms of aqu atic life in eastern Kentucky waterways. They t hreaten sources of drinking water and can affe ct the quality of life for the people of this regi on. Our objections to these 36 draft permits are based on the same fundamental concern, that p ermits must be strong enough to control pol lution from these mines, pollution that can harm human life and aquatic life. So this afternoon we are here to listen to the concerns you have about these permits. In particular, it is important that we receive any1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25

SWORN TESTIMONY , PLLC 2404 Doubletree Court , Lexington , Kentucky 40514 ( 859 ) 533 - 8961 9 specific information you have with regard to these mines and the waters they discharge to. Now, I know we are li mited in how many people can speak today. I encourage eve ryone who is interested in contributing comments and unable to speak tonight to do so in writing. And the contact information is provided at the table in the back. The public comme nt period will close on June 21st. I want to emphasize at this point that no final decisions have bee n made. After considering all of the comments, the data and information received on the permit objections, EPA's Regional Administrator in Atlanta will make a decision to reaffirm, modify, or withdraw each of the original objections. Once these decisions have been made, we wi ll notify the Kentucky Division of Water, each of the permit applicants, and all of those who have registered and provided a mailing address. O ur decisions will also be posted on EPA's website. If we withdraw any ob jections, the Kentucky Division of Water will be able to move forward and issue those permits. If we reaffirm or modify any objections, the Division of Water can send us revised draft permits withi n 30 days that address1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25

SWORN TESTIMONY , PLLC 2404 Doubletree Court , Lexington , Kentucky 40514 ( 859 ) 533 - 8961 10 our concerns. If for some reason we cannot reach agreement with the Di vision, then EPA will issue a permit for those particular mines. However, as I said earlier, I am ho peful that we will be successful in reaching agreement on these permits and that the State can move forward with issuing them. So this is our opportunity to hear directly from you. I want to thank you a gain for being here and for participating in this p rocess. And at this time, I'll turn it ba ck to Charlie, who will facilitate the remain der of the hearing. Thank you. MS. MacPHERSON: Thanks, Ji m. I just want to remind, if anyone has a speaker number 1 through 20, at this time you should go in the back of the room. Can you free yoursel f from the tape there? Just rip it off. Tha t's okay. Terrific. So at this time, I would like to introduce Secretary Peters of t he Kentucky Energy and Environment Cabinet to make opening remarks, who will be followed by Commissioner Bruce Scott of the Kentucky Departme nt for Environmental Protection. SECRETARY PETERS: Th ank you very much,1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25

SWORN TESTIMONY , PLLC 2404 Doubletree Court , Lexington , Kentucky 40514 ( 859 ) 533 - 8961 11 Charlie. I appreciate it. Good afternoon. And it is always a pleasure to be in Pike County and in Pikeville. Okay, it is always a pleasure to be here. I am Len Peters, and I am Secretary of Kentucky's Energy and Envir onment Cabinet. And on behalf of Governor Steve Be shear, I want to thank Region 4 for conducting thi s hearing to receive comments on their objections to C lean Water Act permits for surface m ining operations in eastern Kentucky. Today's hearing is un precedented in Kentucky. Also unprecedented is the State feeling compelled by matters of principle to sue the U.S. EPA, which we did in 2010 because of w hat we deemed to be arbitrary and inconsi stent application of policies governing mining operations . My comments today regarding EPA's objec tions to these permits, therefore, are consistent w ith the concerns we have expressed for mo re than two years now regarding this issue. As someone responsible for overseeing the State's environmental protection programs, I support and I am, in fact, obligated to enforce regulations necessary to protect our land, air,1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25

SWORN TESTIMONY , PLLC 2404 Doubletree Court , Lexington , Kentucky 40514 ( 859 ) 533 - 8961 12 and water resources. We can and must do all that is reasonably possible to protect our environment and the lives and health of our citizens. We have federal and state law s and regulations that not only guide this process but that bind us so that our decisions are not arbitrary, political, or otherwise without basis. Environmental permitting is not designed to st op legitimate business activities, whether we are talking about a mining activity, a manufacturing facility, or a water treatment plant. Rather, permitting is to ensure these activities are done in accordance with existing laws and regulations. R egulators and a regulated community need certainty in this process. In addition, regulators and a regulated community need to be assure d the decisions are made fairly and reasonably based on accepted scientific studies and analysis. The Energy and Enviro nment Cabinet and the U.S. EPA have an impo rtant partnership, and we share the same mission, to protect human health and the environment a nd to ensure environmental protection laws and r egulations are implemented and enforced fairly and reasonably. Kentucky cannot simply reject surface mining permit1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25

SWORN TESTIMONY , PLLC 2404 Doubletree Court , Lexington , Kentucky 40514 ( 859 ) 533 - 8961 13 applications that are in accordance with existing laws and regulations. Desp ite the rhetoric from some, surface mining, including mountaintop removal mining, is a legal form of mining that occurs on privately-owned l and. We follow the federal Surface Mining Control and Reclamation Act, the Clean Water Act, and other federal provisions in operating the Kentucky program. Coal can be and is being mined in an environmentally respo nsible manner. We continue to make improvements, and the industry has been willing to do things better . For example, the Beshear Administration init iated a novel approach to ensuring enhanced enviro nmental protection of surface mining operations through a fill minimization protocol, a protocol that should have been embraced by the EPA but was not. All sources of energy production in use, even renewables, have an environ mental impact. But existing laws and regulations are in place to minimize impacts and to rec laim mined land. That is why it is disconcerting to us that EPA has applied a specific be nchmark, that is conductivity, to Appalachia n coal mining, a de facto standard that has been based on what1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25

SWORN TESTIMONY , PLLC 2404 Doubletree Court , Lexington , Kentucky 40514 ( 859 ) 533 - 8961 14 should be very narrowly interpreted incomplete science, not one that should be a surrogate measure of overall water quality. I read an opinion pie ce in the paper this week that even misrepresent s the facts by saying that conductivity is a meas ure of contamination. The EPA knows and I know that simply is not true, and yet many people do not know otherwise. Governor Beshear and I recognize and respect that EPA has a responsibility an d obligation to revise and update regulations and program requirements as necessary to protect human health and the environment. However, EPA should not create new regulatory requirements tha t have not undergone the appropriate Congr essional or rulemaking processes. As it is, the EPA is preventing through its objection process Kentucky, a delegated state, from issui ng permits with no recourse for us or for the regulated community or for the thousands of Kentuckians who depend on mining for their livelihood s. We should not allow a few studies, studie s that have credible counterpoints, to determine the economic destiny of one region of the countr y. We have allowed rhetoric and misinformation to overwhelm what1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25

SWORN TESTIMONY , PLLC 2404 Doubletree Court , Lexington , Kentucky 40514 ( 859 ) 533 - 8961 15 should be a legitimat e discussion on very important issues, jobs, human health, the environment, and a ra tional application of administrative oversight. I will close by sayin g that I appreciate the efforts of the staff within Region 4. They worked closely with our Cabinet to arrive at a solution to move these permits forward. We were assured by headquarters that if we were to reach an agreement, which we did, th at EPA would honor that agreement. Unfortunately, that ultimately was simply not the case. And many months later, we are still experiencin g the consequences of headquarter's actions. Thank you for the opportunity to speak. (Applause) COMMISSIONER SCOTT: Good a fternoon. My name is Bruce Scott. I am the Commissioner of the Kentucky Department for Env ironmental Protection. Thank you for the opp ortunity to provide comments today regarding the EPA's pending objections to 36 draft KPDES permits for discharges associated with coal mining operations in eastern Kentucky. The Commonwealth of Kentucky has been delegated authority by U.S. EPA to administer the1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25

SWORN TESTIMONY , PLLC 2404 Doubletree Court , Lexington , Kentucky 40514 ( 859 ) 533 - 8961 16 NPDES program in Kentucky since 1983. Since 1983, there have been tens of thousands of NPDES permits proposed and issued by Kent ucky for wastewater and storm water discharges across the Commonwealth, ranging from individual homes, to cities, to industries, and to coal mining operations. The Agency is aware of only one prior instance where an EPA permit objection of the Kentucky proposed draft of the NPDES permit may have occurred. That was approximately 25 years ago for an industrial operation. No previously proposed NPDES permit for a coal mining ope ration has ever previously been objected to. However, since April of 2010, the EPA has objected to approximately 40 proposed NPDES individual coal mining permits and has approved only one individual NPDES permit for a new or expanded surface mine operation in eastern Kentucky. Since receiving NPDES program delegation in 1983, Kentucky has maintain ed conformance with federal EPA regulatory requirements. Simply stated, Kentucky's regulati ons and regulatory requirements are the same as the federal EPA regulations and regulatory requirements. With regard to the 36 permit objections subject to the1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25

SWORN TESTIMONY , PLLC 2404 Doubletree Court , Lexington , Kentucky 40514 ( 859 ) 533 - 8961 17 public hearing here today, it is noteworthy to point out that EPA has not made any changes to the federal NPDES regulations t hat are subject to these permits since April of 2010. In addition, there have been no ch anges to the applicable state or federal water quality st andards that apply to Kentucky waters that are at issue in these permit objections here today since April of 2010. The question, therefore, must be asked: What changed? What state or federal regulation has changed that has resulted in these EPA objections since April of 2010? While that question r emains pending, Kentucky has continued to work extensively with the EPA to address EPA's evolving comments and concerns that have been expressed over th e past two plus years. Kentucky has provided numer ous proposed draft permits, both formally and informally, consistent with existing state and federal regulations in an effort to resolve these objections. We remain committed and hopeful that resolution to these objections can and wi ll be achieved. With respect to the E PA objections themselves that are a subject to this public hearing, the EPA's stated concerns prima rily fall into two1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25

SWORN TESTIMONY , PLLC 2404 Doubletree Court , Lexington , Kentucky 40514 ( 859 ) 533 - 8961 18 categories. First, w ith respect to how the reasonable potential analys is, or RPA, was performed to determine whether the proposed discharges had a reasonable potential to cause or contribute to a violation of Kentucky's water quality standards. And, secondly, the establishment of permit requirements in accordance with determinations of that reasonable potential analysis. With respect to the first issue, Kentucky followed existing EPA-appro ved RPA procedures, regulations, and appl ication requirements consistent with 40 CFR 122.44 and 122.21. Specifically, Kentuck y evaluated available discharge data and/or reque sted discharge data where it was unavailable fo r a new discharge, as per existing regulato ry requirements and permitting procedures. With respect to the second issue, Kentucky imposed a combination of chemical specific limitations and monit oring requirements, whole effluent toxicity limitatio ns and monitoring requirements, best management practice requirements, and ins tream biological assessment requirements and limitations. In addition to1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25

SWORN TESTIMONY , PLLC 2404 Doubletree Court , Lexington , Kentucky 40514 ( 859 ) 533 - 8961 19 addressing the individual parameter RPA requirements, the narrative water quality standard for conductivity and total dissolved solids is met via the combination of these permit requirements, consistent with 40 CFR 122.44. In addition, the instream biological assessm ent requirements are designed to address the site specific nature of the receiving stream as spe cified in the narrative water quality standards cit ed in 401 KAR 10.031, Section 4(1)(f). In light of these fac ts, the state respectfully requests that EPA withdraw its permit objections. We look forwar d to continuing to work with EPA in our ongoing effort to bring resolution to these issues in a timely manner. Thank you again for the opportunity to provide these brief comments. We will be providing additional written comments on these objections before the close of the comment period. Thank you. (Applause) MS. MacPHERSON: Than k you for the opening remarks. Now we would like to move on to receiving the public comments. And I know I've got the speakers 1 through 20. If the next group, 21 to 30, could go to the back of the room, the1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25

SWORN TESTIMONY , PLLC 2404 Doubletree Court , Lexington , Kentucky 40514 ( 859 ) 533 - 8961 20 back right, to receive your instructions. Thank you. So as you come up to the microphone, please state your name -- first your number, your speaker number, then your name, spe ll your name, we are making a transcript, and yo ur organization if you are representing any. Also , if you are referring to any specific permits, pl ease let us know that as well. At that point, we will start the timer, which you will see up on th e wall there. And you have two minutes to make yo ur remarks. We will -- at the end of the two minutes, you'll see it flash. But, also, th e microphone will gradually go silent so that we can mo ve to the next speaker. Okay. So I think -- everyone understand? Great. So with that, I think we'll start with speaker number 1. SPEAKER NO. 1: I am speaker number 1. My name is Donna McClure, M-c-C-l-u-r-e. And I am here on behalf of Kentucky' s United States Senate Republican Leader, Mi tch McConnell. And I will be reading a statement on his behalf, as he is in Washington and cannot be he re. I will be making comments regarding the 36 permits. "Like most of t he country, Kentucky is1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25

SWORN TESTIMONY , PLLC 2404 Doubletree Court , Lexington , Kentucky 40514 ( 859 ) 533 - 8961 21 suffering from very difficu lt economic times. Far too many Kentuckians are unemployed and the prospect for future employm ent remains daunting. It is especially irri tating this Administration has blindly followed polici es eliminating jobs in our communities. The people of Kentucky are amongst the hardest working people on earth. But how can we be expected to compete if our own government is working against us. Simply put, my constituents are under siege from the Obama Administration's regu latory agenda, and the EPA is the worst offender. These 36 objections are further proof of this siege . Perhaps the clearest example of this Administration's regulatory assault is its war on coal. Since being sworn in, President Obama's EPA has set out to circumvent t he will of Congress and the American people by turning the already cumbersome mine permitting process into a backdoor means of shutting down coal mines. A former senior EPA official under the Obama Administration recently summed up the regulatory philosophy of the Agency with respect to those working in the coal business by saying it wants to crucify them. With this radical env ironmental anti-coal agenda,1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25

SWORN TESTIMONY , PLLC 2404 Doubletree Court , Lexington , Kentucky 40514 ( 859 ) 533 - 8961 22 it is no wonder the A dministration has failed to answer the American people' s call for greater domestic energy production. The real world impact of their fantasy world energy policy is people are losing their jobs and energy prices continue to increase. It is high time the Obama Administration stops treating the Kentucky coal industry as being part of the problem. Kentucky coal is the solution." (Applause) PUBLIC SPEAKER: My n ame is James Milliman. I am the State Director -- M-i-l-l-i-m-a-n. I am the State Director for Sena tor Rand Paul. Senator Paul could not be here toda y, so he has filed a statement. And the reason he could not be here today, folks, he is in Washington, DC as we speak fighting the heavy-handed t actics of the EPA to protect your property right s. And he will continue to fight with every ounce and fiber of his body until we prevail over the EPA. And, Ladies and Gentl emen, look at these people out here. These are Kentuckians. You've heard of our most famous daughter of Kentucky, proud to be a coal mi ner's daughter, Loretta Lynn. These are the daughters and the sons, and they are1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25

SWORN TESTIMONY , PLLC 2404 Doubletree Court , Lexington , Kentucky 40514 ( 859 ) 533 - 8961 23 proud to be coal miners. They are proud to be children and grandchildren of the coal miners that provided energy for this st ate for years. For 250 years they worked in those mines. They risked life, they risked black lun g to fuel the energy of this country. And now what happens after 250 years? We are here finally having a hearing on a permit. But can they trust the EPA? Should they have confidence in the EPA to give a fair hearing? I don't think so. No t when your leader, Barack Obama, says he wants to bankrupt the coal companies, when the Vice President says he wants to bankrupt the coal compan ies, when your own officials sit there and say they are going to treat coal companies like conquered nations of Rome, when the Romans came in and crucified them. Well, we've got news for you. These people, the good people of Kentucky and the coal miners, will not be conquered. (Ap plause). And there is help on the way. The re is help on the way. The government has now faced defeat in the Supreme Court. Folks, the Sa ckett case said the government could try their heavy-handed tactics to take away the propert y rights of people were rejected in a unanimo us Supreme Court.1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25

SWORN TESTIMONY , PLLC 2404 Doubletree Court , Lexington , Kentucky 40514 ( 859 ) 533 - 8961 24 And I am going to lea ve you with one last thing. Take this message back to Washington. Take this to the EPA. Take this to your President. It is a m essage our Founding Fathers gave 250 years ago to the tyrants of England, of King George. They said, "D on't tread on me." And these people are telling yo u, "Don't tread on me." They will not allow it. (Applause) SPEAKER NO. 3: I am speaker number 3, Danielle Smoot, D-a-n -i-e-l-l-e S-m, "m" as in "mountain," o-o-t. And I'm the Communications Director for Congress man Hal Rogers. I would also like the record to re flect that the Congressman's new District Director, Chri s Girdler, is here and his Field Representat ive, Pat Wootan. Congressman Rogers re grets being unable to join us here today, Ladies and Gentlemen. He is actually, of course, in Washington fighting this same exact fight on C apitol Hill. Congressman Rogers has grave concern about the Environmental Protection Agency's strangu lating regulations on Appalachian coal. In fact, earlier this year he told EPA Administrator Lisa Jackson that the Agency's behavior is contemptible.1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25

SWORN TESTIMONY , PLLC 2404 Doubletree Court , Lexington , Kentucky 40514 ( 859 ) 533 - 8961 25 Time and again, the EPA has tried to bypass the Congress and weaken sta te authority. And they make no secret of thi s Administration's intentions to shutdown Kentucky coal. The permit process is now so complex that our coal operators are jumping through regulatory hoops tr ying to understand the constant shift in standards and rules that don't apply to everyone. What we do know, what we do know is very clear, is that only one 404 individual permit has been approved for a new surface mining operat ion in Kentucky in three and a half years. And, folks, that is downright shameful. Congressman Rogers has made it clear that just because you are pro co al doesn't mean you are against the environment. He is the co-founder of the eastern Kentucky PRIDE organization that has invested environmental educ ation in every school district in southern and eastern Kentucky, has inspired upwards of 33,000 volunteers to clean up our hillsides every April and remove nearly 30,000 straight pipes from dumping sewage into our streams. In fact, some of PRIDE's most proud sponsors and volunteers are sitting right here with us today. They are our coal operators and1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25

SWORN TESTIMONY , PLLC 2404 Doubletree Court , Lexington , Kentucky 40514 ( 859 ) 533 - 8961 26 coal mining families. Whether you have taken notice or not, coal operato rs have made great strides in reducing their environmental footprint. The EPA, we do know, has a duty to protect the environment. No one is here today to ask for environmental laws to be eliminated. But we do expect them to be app lied fairly and consistently so our coal mining families can build a business, start a family, or buy a home without fear of a pink slip because ano ther permit is on hold. On behalf of all the mining men and women of southern and eastern Kentuc ky, Congressman Hal Rogers asks that the EPA overturn its objections to these permits. Thank you very much. (Applause) PUBLIC SPEAKER: My name is W. Keith Hall. I am a member of the Kentucky House of Representatives, where I chair the Energy Committee. Thank you for being here today. We welcome you to Pike County. In Kentucky, Pike County is the largest producing county east of the Mississippi. I represent that county as a fourth generation coal miner. I'm in the coal bus iness. I mine coal. I work in the coal indu stry. Kentucky coal miners1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25

SWORN TESTIMONY , PLLC 2404 Doubletree Court , Lexington , Kentucky 40514 ( 859 ) 533 - 8961 27 have supplied this Commonwe alth and America for over 100 years with a reliable, dependable, economically cheap source of energy. The State of Kentucky regulates coal min ers, coal operators, and coal companies alongsid e Federal Mine Safety Administration officials of MSHA and OSM, and we have had an excellent working relationship the last 50 years doing that. But in spite of the things that we do together regulating the industry, we have become th e victim of one of the most devious and sinister attacks from the U.S. government. The EPA has pulled an d withheld 36 permits from Kentucky. Once, some of those were even approved. What the EPA has done is wrong. It is unconstitutional. And I'll back that by saying a U.S. Judge, Amy Berman Jack son, has ordered EPA to vacate its actions ag ainst Kentucky on the grounds it has no authority nor no jurisdiction to do so. Judge Amy Jackson (applause ) called the EPA's authority unreasonable, and I quote, and she pointed that the EPA has no power to revoke those 36 Kentucky permits. Judge Jackson also said the EPA's interpretation of the law that they are basing their intrusive, overreaching actions on is1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25

SWORN TESTIMONY , PLLC 2404 Doubletree Court , Lexington , Kentucky 40514 ( 859 ) 533 - 8961 28 illogical and impractical. Judge Jackson rejects the EPA's broad view that it has unbounded authority to retroactively revoke permits issued by another agency. My question today is: Will the EPA shutdown an entire state's ind ustry? And I pray not they will. And I am going to say one last thing, is that the EPA's actions are too intrusive. Thank you. (Applause) SPEAKER NO. 7: I am speaker number 7. My name is Jim Ward, W-a-r-d. I'm the Letcher County Judge Executive. First I would like to point out that Section 402(D)3 of th e Clean Water Act gives administrators of the EPA d iscretion in whether or not to review or obje ct to permits issued by the Commonwealth of Kentucky. It is completely lawful for the EPA Administr ator to exercise her discretion and decide not to review permits issued by the state. Secondly, economic and social costs are mentioned numerous times throughout the Clean Water Act, and the le gislative history clearly indicates that Congress did not intend overly1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25

SWORN TESTIMONY , PLLC 2404 Doubletree Court , Lexington , Kentucky 40514 ( 859 ) 533 - 8961 29 stringent limitations to be applied to permits, especially if it would unduly impose economic and social hardship. Here are some of the examples of that hardship. Today there are over 70 senior citizens here from Letcher County and countless other seniors from other counties. Senio rs, would you please stand up. (Audience member s stand. Applause). Every month we serve 10,000 meals to seniors in my county, some of whom it is their only hot meal of the day and may be the only contact that they have with another person. Our county's budget is heavily reliant upon coal severance taxes to meet these services that our seniors depend upon. These economic and social costs don't bear a reasonable relationship to the benefits that are claimed by the EPA. I am also here today because I support the hard-working coal miners, whose jobs are not only to provide for their families but also for the families of th e truck drivers and the salesmen and the repairmen who sell equipment and supplies, the teenager who works at the gas station that sells pi ckled bologna and Coke-Cola to the miners on thei r way to work. The objection to these permits not only puts1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25

SWORN TESTIMONY , PLLC 2404 Doubletree Court , Lexington , Kentucky 40514 ( 859 ) 533 - 8961 30 these hard-working coal min ers out of a job, but puts essential services to seniors at risk, youth programs at risk that keep our kids out of trouble and off of drugs, and would handicap the county from meeting the needs of the people, a people that get dumped on al l too often because some folks think we are ba ckwards and ignorant. I'm here today, and t hese seniors and miners are here today, to demonstrate to the EPA that we believe in political self-determination. MS. MacPHERSON: Thank you. Thank you. Sorry. I know it is hard to get it all in in two minutes. (Applause) MS. MacPHERSON: What I encourage everyone to do who has a statement, is please leave a written copy of it so we can make sure it all gets included as part of the tra nscript. Thank you. The next speaker. PUBLIC SPEAKER: Ted Edmunds from Breathitt County, State Representativ e -- Democratic State Representative for the 91st District. I was in Frankfort Tu esday night. And since I was at those hearings Tuesday night in Frankfort, I decided to tak e a little bit of a1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25

SWORN TESTIMONY , PLLC 2404 Doubletree Court , Lexington , Kentucky 40514 ( 859 ) 533 - 8961 31 different approach in my comments today. The University of Kentuck y owns a 15,000 acre tract of land known as the Rob inson Forest. It has the single largest coal r eserve east of the Mississippi River. They ha ve mined coal in that Robinson Forest tract of property. And I would just like to share this with you. When the University of Kentucky, who is rapidly achieving, becoming one of the top 20 research institutions in this countr y, they are not going to be violating the law, th ey are not going to be doing things that are contrary to what the rules and the regulations are, they abide by the laws, and they have one of the best tracts of coal east of the Mississippi River. Today, this morning in the paper, the University of Kentucky had to layoff about 150 employees. They need money . This is a source of income that they would prob ably like to depend on. I want to just assure you, you are dealing with people that are compe tent, that are capable, and are knowledgeable. They kn ow what they are doing. Another comment that I am going to make is a stream that is on my grandfather's property, probably been there since t he beginning of time,1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25

SWORN TESTIMONY , PLLC 2404 Doubletree Court , Lexington , Kentucky 40514 ( 859 ) 533 - 8961 32 the bedrock in that stream is a seam of coal. It probably has been that way since God created this earth. Unless something drastically changes, it will be that way. My last comment, I di d not know I would see this gentleman, is a neighb or that drives two and a half hours every mo rning, gets up at 3:30 to work. He puts in a h ard day at work, drives two and a half hours home. His wife and my wife walk every morning. She says he comes home and he goes to bed. He gets up tomorro w morning, he does it all over again. He is afraid he is not going to make it to retirement. Please help us. Thank you. (Applause) SPEAKER NO. 9: Number 9, Donovan Blackburn. I am the City Manager for the City of Pikeville. I'm here speaking on behalf of Mayor Frank Justice. "As the Mayor of Pike ville, I proudly cast a motion in the first v ote to join the lawsuit against the EPA on behalf of the citizens I was elected to represent in order to preserve the quality of life and jobs. The City joined this suit with the Kentucky Coal Association and the1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25

SWORN TESTIMONY , PLLC 2404 Doubletree Court , Lexington , Kentucky 40514 ( 859 ) 533 - 8961 33 Commonwealth of Kentucky challenging the legal validity of the EPA's guida nce, giving rise to the permit objection and litiga tion current pending in Washington, DC. I vow to continue this figh t as long as I am a sworn representative of the good people of Pikeville in the coal field s in order to protect those rights that are being ignored by the EPA's actions. As a county seat, the largest county of coal producing, I am tellin g you that this is a way of life and it in turn gives us a better quality of life. Thr ough generations of courage and hard work, coal miners have helped to supply the coal that has built this country, supplying coal to heat iron pla nts, fuel plants, and produce energy. Let us not turn our backs on those that have founded this cou ntry through unfair regulations. As the Mayor of Pikeville, who is also a coal operator, I know my c ommunity has benefitted with millions of dollars reinves ted back into our community through the leadership of our legislators. In the past s ix years, the City of Pikeville has used co al severance dollars to provide safe drinking water and sewer services to1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25

SWORN TESTIMONY , PLLC 2404 Doubletree Court , Lexington , Kentucky 40514 ( 859 ) 533 - 8961 34 our residents. We have not harmed our rivers and streams, but have greatly improved them by cleaning up thousands of straight pipes that were formerly polluting them. Without coal mining and coal severance tax do llars creating these projects, it would have not been possible without placing the burden of debt on our people. Because of these objections of thes e permits, it is estimated more than $123 million in coal severance taxes have been lost. As a coal operator, I have personally felt the sting of our regulation s. I recently had to stop operations of a coal mine because it no longer meets your regulatio ns. I have found as an operator it is not only frustrating to deal with more stringent rules and re gulations, but it is apparent that the intent is to put a squeeze on this industry. This week o ne of my lowest points as a coal operator was layi ng off one-third of my staff, the men that made their living through the sweat of their brow. To se e the hurt and the fear in their eyes when I told t hem the news of their layoff was heartbreak ing. To put a face on those that your regulations are directly impacting, you need to take a look at the eyes of those that you1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25

SWORN TESTIMONY , PLLC 2404 Doubletree Court , Lexington , Kentucky 40514 ( 859 ) 533 - 8961 35 are directly impacting. Thank you." (Applause) PUBLIC SPEAKER: I'm Judge Rupert, County Judge Executive of Pi ke County, Kentucky. If we were a state, we would be 10th in the United States in coal produ ction. I am here today to talk about the most valuable commodity that we have in America today, and that is our coal. Twenty-two percent of the reserve of coal in the world is in the United States of America. The Btu. We've got more coal that has got Btu than they've got oil in th e Middle East. The scientific data that EPA is using is very questionable. You need to go back and take a look at your scientific data tha t you are using. Also, your timetables. For 20 years you have issued these permits. You come up and give six months. That is not time and not proper. You have a war on coal in America going on today, whether you realize it or not. Y ou need to get real. The quality of life in America is at stake. Not only our quality of life here in central Appalachia, but the quality of life in the United States of America. T he utility rates, you are going to push them out until Americans cannot keep1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25

SWORN TESTIMONY , PLLC 2404 Doubletree Court , Lexington , Kentucky 40514 ( 859 ) 533 - 8961 36 their lights on. The y are going to make a decision of whether to get medicine, food or clothing or pay their utili ty bills. And, EPA, you are causing this. Coal is not the villain in this country. Coal is a hero. The industrial revolution, the greatest on e in the history of this world, was the industrial revolution of America fueled by coal. An d, yes, they are not the villain; they are the heros. You all have got to stop this war. In the 50s, our gover nment had war against coal and they started impor ting foreign oil. We lived through that. We lived through that. Administrations come and go. Mrs. Jackson will be gone. Mr. Jewell [ph] will be gone. And, Mr. President, if you don't stop this war on coal in this country, you' ll be gone. (Audience members stand. Applause). We need to balance our economy with our ecology. If you don't do that, America is in trouble . God bless. MS. MacPHERSON: Thank you. Thank you. Thank you very much. Okay. Next speaker. SPEAKER NO. 21: Yes, ma'am . I am number 21. My name is Carl Breeding, and I'm speaking on behalf of --1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25

SWORN TESTIMONY , PLLC 2404 Doubletree Court , Lexington , Kentucky 40514 ( 859 ) 533 - 8961 37 MS. MacPHERSON: Excuse me. Yes, can you turn up his mic. SPEAKER NO. 21: I'm sorry. MS. MacPHERSON: Thank you. SPEAKER NO. 21: Okay . My name is Carl Breeding. It is C-a- r-l B-r-e-e-d-i-n-g. I'm speaking on behalf of the Kentucky Chemical Industry Council, which is part of the Kentucky Association of Manufacturer s. The Chemical Industry Council is a state wide trade association representing chemical manuf acturers in Kentucky. Kentucky's chemical manufac turers are heavily dependent upon low cost energy that is available largely because of th e state's abundant coal resources. Low cost energy has been a primary factor in the decision of many of Kentucky's largest employers to locate their facilities in Kentucky and has allowed Kentucky to succeed in competing for new and expanded businesses. Unfortunately, EPA's object ions to KPDES permits for new and e xpanded surface coal mining operations threatens to disrupt Kentucky's favorable energy supply status. The Chemical Industry Council is greatly concerned that the EPA's actions will re sult in a loss of1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25

SWORN TESTIMONY , PLLC 2404 Doubletree Court , Lexington , Kentucky 40514 ( 859 ) 533 - 8961 38 manufacturing capacity in Kentucky and a consequent loss of jobs at this critical moment. EPA's information of its new requirements for Clean Water Act permi ts for eastern Kentucky surface mines is whol ly inappropriate. The requirements were imposed w ithout any prior notice to the industry or to the state permit issuing authority and were ef fective immediately. Procedures that had been approved by EPA and used for decades in the issuance of Clean Water Act permits were not used , resulting in chaos. The impact of the EPA 's inappropriate actions will be felt dramatic ally by Kentucky's manufacturing community, wh ich recognizes that coal is a low cost energy source that will be in demand for years to come. We should be exploring ways to better utilize the energy source rather than hindering its use. Kentucky's manufacturers, their employers, their families, and Kentucky's economy will suffer if the EPA's objections stand. Thank you for the opp ortunity to speak today. (Applause) MS. MacPHERSON: Thank you. Thank you. Now, before the next speaker I just want to see if there is anyone out there who needs the sign1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25

SWORN TESTIMONY , PLLC 2404 Doubletree Court , Lexington , Kentucky 40514 ( 859 ) 533 - 8961 39 language interpreter services, if you could stand. No, okay. Thank you. Please go ahead. SPEAKER NO. 22: I'm number 22, Lloyd Cress, C-r-e-s-s. And I'm s peaking on behalf of the Kentucky Coal Association. The Kentucky Coal Ass ociation truly welcomes these hearings, which affor d EPA an opportunity to right a terrible wrong done to the Kentucky coal mining industry, the miners, and their families, and the people of Ken tucky who benefit so greatly from low cost energy. The wrong occurred on April 1st, 2010 when the EPA announced that new water quality requirements, effective immediately, would apply to the review of permits for new and expanded surface mining act ivities in eastern Kentucky. The new re quirements replace procedures that EPA had approved and the Commonwealth of Kentucky had used for more than 20 years and as recently as two weeks befor e April 1st, 2010. The new requirements were imposed in a dictatorial fashion with no prior notice to the coal mining industry that would allow the companies to adjust t heir mining practices or their applications for Clea n Water Act permits. The new permit requirements were imposed with no1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25

SWORN TESTIMONY , PLLC 2404 Doubletree Court , Lexington , Kentucky 40514 ( 859 ) 533 - 8961 40 notice to the Kentucky Divi sion of Water, that had the responsibility fo r processing those applications. EPA's arrogant imposition of new requirements, effective imm ediately, has had a devastating effect on the surface mining industry that serves as a life of eastern Kentucky's economy. For more than two years, not a single individual permit was approved without EPA objection. A more un American abuse of due process and basic respect for the rights of others can hardly be envisioned in thi s country that prides itself as a nation of laws and not of men. The harm inflicted on the eastern Kentucky economy has been prolonged by the failure to conduct the necessary hearings. In the meantime, projects have been abandoned, jobs h ave been lost, and people have suf fered without any effort by EPA to fulfill its legal responsibilities. MS. MacPHERSON: Than k you. Excuse me. (Applause) MS. MacPHERSON: Thank you. And please make sure we get a written copy of that so we can make sure we capture. Because I don't think the court reporter, if it is not in the microphone, can capture it. So next speaker, please.1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25

SWORN TESTIMONY , PLLC 2404 Doubletree Court , Lexington , Kentucky 40514 ( 859 ) 533 - 8961 41 SPEAKER NO. 23: Mike Hansel, H-a-n-s-e-l, as in Hansel & Gre tel, number 23. In the EPA's official specific objection to these permits being d iscussed, one particular statement rings as quite od d to me. The statement in each of those stereotype letters reads, "EPA's objections consider in part the emerging science on the impacts of surface c oal mining on water quality." Not mounta intop mining, but surface mining. A curious statemen t, indeed. Perhaps a look into this Administrati on's next step to complete the elimination of coal mining and coal jobs. This EPA at the direc tion of the White House is choosing to ignore any statement of science or fact that is not subm itted by a left wing activist. They choose instead to rely on an opinion that has no s cientific study or background so that this Ad ministration can k eep its campaign promise from 2008, a promis e to make it so difficult to mine coal in the United States that companies will be forced to quit or go broke, just a statement that the left needed to launch their push of this agenda. The demographics tell the complete story1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25

SWORN TESTIMONY , PLLC 2404 Doubletree Court , Lexington , Kentucky 40514 ( 859 ) 533 - 8961 42 behind what is happening he re today. Each person here should take a moment, look around and observe. As my grandmother would say, "It is as plain as the nose on your face." She would also say, "Ponder on that one fo r a while, and we will just see how smart yo u really are." The Administration would like for you to believe that this action is being taken to protect the public. I believe, however, it is not. It is totally about money and pow er. Step back and see who will profit from the lo ss of coal jobs and coal revenue. Check the ties to the emerging green industries and see wh at you come up with. When an industry is saddled with impossible standards, such as having any discharge from a permitted area being cleaner than that of drinking water, enough said. "It is as plain as the nose on your face, son." I'll end my comments by reminding this panel and those in the atte ndance with a few quotes from famous Americans they need to remember. Thomas Jefferson: "Were we direct ed from Washington when to sow and when to re ap, we should soon want bread." Thomas Jefferson: "To compel a man to furnish funds for the propagation of ideas which1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25

SWORN TESTIMONY , PLLC 2404 Doubletree Court , Lexington , Kentucky 40514 ( 859 ) 533 - 8961 43 he believes and abhors, is sinful and tyrannical." And my last one, from a great scientist, is Albert Einstein. And he says, "Le t us not think of what is. Let's think of what should be." Thank you. (Applause) MS. MacPHERSON: Okay. Before the next speaker, I would like to request the next block to go to the back. Speakers 31 to 40, if you could go to the back right of the room to get your briefing. Thank you. Go ahead. SPEAKER NO. 26: Hi. I'm number 26. My name is Ama Bowman Bentley. I'm with Appalachian State Analytical, a private environmental laboratory. I'm a life -- also a lifelong resident of Pike County, Kentucky. Where was the EPA 40, 50 years ago when mining was a true source of stream pollution? Do you realize that any treatm ent being done of the acid mine drainage left behind by the companies who mined many years ago and that are no longer in business is being treated by the coal companies that are in business today? Do you realize that the majority of the r eclamation done on properties vascularized by the coal co mpanies of the old era has been reclaimed and repaired by the coal1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25

SWORN TESTIMONY , PLLC 2404 Doubletree Court , Lexington , Kentucky 40514 ( 859 ) 533 - 8961 44 companies in this roo m today? Not by AML and not by the government. Shut these coal companies down by not issuing permits or by issuing permits that are not practical or afford able and who would treat and repair our mistakes of the past. Surface mining today without the current regulations provides a grea t source of much needed land and, of course, revenu e for our region. I know that today the w ater quality is monitored closely. And in many cases, stream quality is actually improved by mining . Pollution and sediment control is a top priority of coal companies. Don't jeo pardize an entire industry and hundreds of thousands of people's livelihood just because of a han dful of misinformed people and by imposing regul ations that are more stringent than drinki ng water standards. Why not concentrate on our re gion's true source of pollution, straight p ipes, raw sewage. Now, you may want to know how I am qualified to make such a statement as to say sewage is our true source of pollution. I'm a lifelong resident of Pike County, Kentucky. I've managed an environmental laboratory for over 30 years, and I have seen a lot of po llution. I have traveled1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25

SWORN TESTIMONY , PLLC 2404 Doubletree Court , Lexington , Kentucky 40514 ( 859 ) 533 - 8961 45 these surface mines. I have traveled through our streets. I've analyzed the water. You want to save our streams? Take the money you are using to fight a problem that is already being addressed and put it in an area where it is needed. Thank you. (Applause) SPEAKER NO. 25: I am number 25. I'm Charles George. I'm here to represent the Kentucky Chamber of Commerce. We are the stat e's largest business association with over 2,700 members representing over a half of Kentucky's w ork force, and many of that work force is right here in this room. We are extremely concerned that EPA's actions regarding Clean Water Act permits for new and expanding mining activities in Kentucky have a negative effect on our business climate and jeopardize our econom ic future. The Kentucky Chamber is troubled by the EPA's new water quality req uirements on coal mining activities through the issuance of guidance, rather than notice and comment rulemaking, which is contrary to federal law. As a result of the EPA's failure to foll ow appropriate legal1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25

SWORN TESTIMONY , PLLC 2404 Doubletree Court , Lexington , Kentucky 40514 ( 859 ) 533 - 8961 46 procedures, the Agency has been forced to make significant revisions to it s guidance as it has acquired additional i nformation. Meanwhile, Kentucky's coal mining indu stry has been thrown into turmoil by EPA's objections to KPDES permits issued by the Kentuck y Division of Water containing the same provisi ons previously approved by EPA. The EPA's administrat ive negligence on this issue poses a serious threat to Kentucky's economy. The effect of EPA 's permit objections in September of 2011 alone could eliminate 3,800 jobs in the coal industry and mo re than $123 million in potential coal severance ta xes. Although the direct effects of EPA's anti-coal policies are staggering, perhaps the greatest threat is posed by the increase in energy costs that will follow curtailment of coal product ion in this state. Kentucky's economy, p articularly our strong manufacturing base, heavily relies on the availability of low cost energy generated by coal right here in Kentucky. The Kentucky Chamber urges the EPA to withdraw its pending object ions to the KPDES permits and to work in a cooperative manner with1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25

SWORN TESTIMONY , PLLC 2404 Doubletree Court , Lexington , Kentucky 40514 ( 859 ) 533 - 8961 47 the Kentucky Division of Water to develop regulatory requirements tha t allow the mining of coal to continue right here in Kentucky. We must ensure prosperity and job growth in the future not only for the hard-working m en and women in this room but for all Kentuckian s. Thank you. (Applause) MS. MacPHERSON: Okay . The next speaker, please. SPEAKER NO. 28: Yes. Number 28. Good afternoon. My name is Mark Porta. I live in Louisville, Kentucky. I am the Vice President of Eastern Operations for Whay ne Supply Company. And I also represent our sister company, Walker Machinery in West Virginia. We are the Caterpillar mining construc tion equipment dealers in Kentucky, southern India na, West Virginia, and southern -- southeastern Oh io. These two companies employ over 2,000 men and women working out of 25 locations. Sixty percent of our revenues are generate d from the sale of machines, parts, service to the coal industry. So the coal industry supports all of our employees and their families in four states. Next year Whayne Supp ly will celebrate 1001 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25

SWORN TESTIMONY , PLLC 2404 Doubletree Court , Lexington , Kentucky 40514 ( 859 ) 533 - 8961 48 years of service to our cus tomers. At a time when I should be excited about o ur future, I am full of concern and uncertainty bec ause our future is bleak because of the regula tory ambush on the coal industry by the EPA. Changing the permitting req uirements in April of 2010 has effectively strangled this industry to the breaking point. Why did you target only six states and then decide just West Virginia and Kentucky? Is this an environmental issue or a political issue? Why are your guidelines only directed at the coal indust ry? Why do dissolved solids and conductivity fro m coal mining affect aquatic systems more than f rom other activities of displaced or disturbed soil ? Is this just the EPA's preview to stop all mining, all construction and agriculture, all of whi ch disturb soil and not meet your conductivity guid elines? Why is the rest of the world gro wing their coal, generating electricity capacity at record levels while we are shutting ours down? To address worldwide demand , Caterpillar has expanded their mining equip ment line. Normally, this would be an exci ting time, as the expansion directly impacts our business. We should be1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25

SWORN TESTIMONY , PLLC 2404 Doubletree Court , Lexington , Kentucky 40514 ( 859 ) 533 - 8961 49 adding high paying jo bs and building new facilities and be very exci ted about the future, but we are concerned about the uncertainty. The central Appalachia coal region suffers because Kentucky and West Virginia are under attack by unfair and questionable governance by the EPA, causing massive layoffs, mine shutdowns, downsizing, and company clo sures. I strongly encourage the EPA to withdraw its objections to these 36 permits. Thank you. (Applause) PUBLIC SPEAKER: I'm speaking -- I'm speaking about permits, specif ic permits. MS. MacPHERSON: Okay. PUBLIC SPEAKER: So if you can hold the clock. MS. MacPHERSON: Thank you. I appreciate that. PUBLIC SPEAKER: Beca use I did that Tuesday night, and I used up too much time on that. MS. MacPHERSON: No, no. Yeah, take your time. PUBLIC SPEAKER: Okay . My name is Don Gibson. I represent Arch Coal. And I have a permit that's on the list of 36. It is permit1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25

SWORN TESTIMONY , PLLC 2404 Doubletree Court , Lexington , Kentucky 40514 ( 859 ) 533 - 8961 50 8970448. The only thing th at I have got to say about that is, it is 37 acres in a 254,000 acre watershed. You are w asting your time. You are wasting your money. Instea d of spending money on these meetings and objectio ns to permits such as that, I want to agree with what Ama said, what several other people have s aid here, get proactive about getting us some sewer in the watersheds in eastern Kentucky. That is where the health issues come from. We hear all of these false reports about the illness in the coal fields being caused by mountaintop removal. That's bull crap. The disease and the illness is caused by the crap that is in the streams from the straight pipes. So let's spend our money there and focus our efforts. One thing that I want to point out, Tuesday night in Frankfort we had 800 plus Arch employees there that bussed in and dr ove in for three hours to get there to hear their voice heard. Rest assured, in November their voice will be heard. My last point is to all the coal miners. And I want you to listen up to me. The EPA, and not these folks sitting on the stage, but the EPA in Washington, DC has set a re al good example for us. They have changed the rules midstream. Come1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25

SWORN TESTIMONY , PLLC 2404 Doubletree Court , Lexington , Kentucky 40514 ( 859 ) 533 - 8961 51 November, we are going to be at a midpoint potentially of having a President maybe for another four years. Let's follow their lead. Let's make a ch ange. Thank you. (Applause) MS. MacPHERSON: Thank you. Just before we start, could I have the nex t group, and I believe we're up to numbers 91 to 1 00, go to the back. We do still have more slots available for speaking, so that if you would like to make a statement, please go back to the registration table to receive a number so we can get you in the queue. So let me just wait until these -- it looks like we're having a change. He had quite a support section there. Okay. Next speaker, please go ahead. SPEAKER NO. 30: I'm speaker number 30. I'm James Milam. You people don't hold it against me for my -- but I am fr om West Virginia. We are over here in support of coal. (Applause). I'm the President of the Logan Coal Vendors Association, and we represe nt the spin-off jobs. We're the four or five jobs that is spinned off by every coal miner that is out there working. And we want to thank every one of the coal miners here1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25

SWORN TESTIMONY , PLLC 2404 Doubletree Court , Lexington , Kentucky 40514 ( 859 ) 533 - 8961 52 today for the jobs that we have. The one thing that the Coal Vendors wants to tell you today, we are the small and med ium-sized businesses. And when I say that, if you listen to the President of the United States talk righ t now, he says, "What are we to do to stimu late the U.S. economy?" We've got to do something to drive jobs up. It takes the small and medium-sized businesses to drive the jobs up. Well, you know, we're an engine. We're called the economic engine for the United States. We are what makes the United States of America stand strong. Well, if you cut the fuel supply off to that engine, it is just like the vehicle that you drive every day, it is going to shutdown. If you shutdown the coal economy, you shutdown these coal operators and th ey decide to take their toys and go elsewhere and play, what happens to the economic engine here in the United States, it is going to quit running. You can't stimulate something that you ta ke away. If you don't supply an energy source or a fuel source to that engine, it is going to shutdown. That is who we are. We're the spin-off jobs. We're the majority. The coal operators and the1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25

SWORN TESTIMONY , PLLC 2404 Doubletree Court , Lexington , Kentucky 40514 ( 859 ) 533 - 8961 53 coal miners, they're the mi nority. We're the hundreds of thousands of jo bs that gets spinned off because of coal. We wa nt you to issue these permits. We've got to have these permits. If you go out and buy a bottle of water in the store, it is dirtier than the water that you hold the standards for the coal mine rs to drop off. It is a hell of a lot dirtier. Don't cut off our fuel supply. That is what drives this eco nomic engine. And you better get that in the President's han d. Like the man said before, we have got a voice in November and we're going to use it. Thank you. (Applause) MS. MacPHERSON: Thank you. Okay. Next speaker, please. SPEAKER NO. 29: I am speaker number 29. My name is Jim Winkler. I' m Vice President of the Logan Coal Vendors As sociation. I also own American Hydraulics & Rebui ld in Logan, West Virginia. I employ 31 people. They have 24 kids, got 18 grandkids. That's why I'm here today. Now, the biggest issue that we have is the fact that for every coal mining job that James says, there's six of us. We represent thousands1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25

SWORN TESTIMONY , PLLC 2404 Doubletree Court , Lexington , Kentucky 40514 ( 859 ) 533 - 8961 54 of people. Everybody from my community is scared to death for their jobs. A nd, plus, my men too. I have already got them cut back on hours. I've never had a layoff in the 32 years I've been in business. It is just strictly because of the EPA. I don't trust the EPA, I don't trust Lisa Jackson, and I will neve r trust them. We have a permit issu ed in Logan County, where Arch of West Virginia has got a permit that they took 10 years to get it, it was approved, we went to court, went through appeals court once the EPA rejected it, and they ruled in our favor. Well, just recently the EPA filed another lawsuit against them and are going to reject a permit. That is not fair. We're given a set of regulations in the mining i ndustry. We meet those regulations. What the EPA does, they raise those standards. And then we hav e to try to meet them again. It is not a f air issue on our part. They're not thinking about the human beings that are affected by this and the fact that our communities, our coal commu nities, which have a lot of pride, are bei ng hurt every day. We're going to stand togeth er. We're going to be united. And we're go ing to fight the EPA1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25

SWORN TESTIMONY , PLLC 2404 Doubletree Court , Lexington , Kentucky 40514 ( 859 ) 533 - 8961 55 every step of the way . Please release these permits and let us go to work. Thank you. (Applause) MS. MacPHERSON: Okay. Next speaker, please. SPEAKER NO. 32: I am number 32. My name is Matt Watson. I'm her e on behalf of Appalachian Voices, a nonprofit group, and our thousands of members across the region. Its -- jobs are up since the EPA started its enhanced coordination proce dures back in June 2009. I mentioned that on Tuesday. And that is just a fact. Nobody is going to tell you that. But the number of jobs in Appalachia, mining jobs are up by 6 percent o ver that time period. Now, granted, there's a lot of layoffs that are just starting to happen. But that is for very different reasons, and ever ybody knows it. It is because natural gas prices have gotten so low that coal simply cannot compete. It is not even close. Coal has gone from ha lf of our electricity production several months -- or several years ago to a third of our ele ctricity production today. That is going to cost jobs. It is going to cost jobs all over the country. But that is not EPA's fault. It is not EPA 's fault that the political1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25

SWORN TESTIMONY , PLLC 2404 Doubletree Court , Lexington , Kentucky 40514 ( 859 ) 533 - 8961 56 leaders and the busin ess leaders in eastern Kentucky do not have the vi sion or the courage to try to diversify the econom y and try to attract new industries to the regio n. That is what is required. To put it in perspective, though, what EPA's job -- EPA is r esponsible for making sure that people have a sa fe environment. And a business, an economy needs clean water and clean air and a safe environment in which to flourish. Here in Pike Co unty, Kentucky, it was mentioned, the biggest coal producing county east of the Mississippi of 70,00 0 acres have been strip mined here over the -- over 5, 6, 7 decades. If that was good for the economy, the streets ought to be paved with gold, right, by now? Well, the life expectancy in Pike Cou nty is about what it is in Vietnam, El Salvador, and Iran. In the last decade, while life expectan cy across the U.S. has gone up by a year, it is down by a year in Pike County. Every other stat across the board, socioeconomic, looks pretty bad. And so what we need is EPA to do its job and we can do ours. MS. MacPHERSON: Okay . Thank you. (Audience members respond)1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25

SWORN TESTIMONY , PLLC 2404 Doubletree Court , Lexington , Kentucky 40514 ( 859 ) 533 - 8961 57 MS. MacPHERSON: Thank you. Please remember ground rules at the b eginning, so courtesy. Every speaker gets the same opportunity. So the next speaker, please. SPEAKER NO. 31: I'm speaker number 31. My name is Erin Savage, S-a-v- a-g-e. I'm a water quality specialist with Appalachian Voices. I would like to thank the EPA for this chance to speak and to commend the EPA for fulfilling its obligation to oversee the protection of public waters in the United States , waters that belong to all of us. Since 2010, Appalachian Voices has brought cases against three of Kentucky's largest coal companies, ICG, Fraser Creek, and Nally & Hamilton, for nearly 36,000 violations of the Clean Water Act. These violations include falsified discharge monitor ing reports as well as substantive permit limit violations. These violations were neither ide ntified by the State of Kentucky nor were they adequately dealt with when the State was made aware of these problems. The State is clearly either unw illing or unable to properly enforce the Clean Water Act. Therefore, the EPA must intervene.1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25

SWORN TESTIMONY , PLLC 2404 Doubletree Court , Lexington , Kentucky 40514 ( 859 ) 533 - 8961 58 This hearing is not about disallowing mining in Kentucky. This hearing is solely about water pollution permits. Protect ing our water quality is essential to the health of the residents and the ecosystems of eas tern Kentucky. Valley fill permits f or mountaintop removal damages streams. Our sensitive monitoring program has identified real water pollution problems, including streams with a pH between 3 and 4, maganese greater than 13 mi lligrams per liter, and iron greater than 60 milligrams per liter. Mountaintop removal has als o been linked to health problems in people. People living near mountaintop removal are 50 percent more likely to die of cancer and 42 percen t more likely to have children with birth defects. The EPA is not destroying coal jobs. Coal jobs in Appalachia have increased by 6 percent since 2009. The demand for coal is de creasing due to competition with natural gas. Th e real question is not whether coal will be mined in Kentucky, but, rather, which compani es will be allowed to mine. Companies that respect the law or companies that break the law and dis respect the people of eastern Kentucky?1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25

SWORN TESTIMONY , PLLC 2404 Doubletree Court , Lexington , Kentucky 40514 ( 859 ) 533 - 8961 59 (Applause) MS. MacPHERSON: Thank you. Thank you. Okay. Next speaker, please. SPEAKER NO. 34: I'm speaker number 34. My name is Gary Bentley. I'm here as just an everyday Appalachian citizen, Kentucky coal miner. And what I would like to get across is, here in Appalachia we do rely on the coal industry. Right now, without it we don't have any sort of economy to keep the area going. However, the Clean Water Act has been in effect since 1976. You have billion dollar compan ies who want to avoid doing what is right. I wor k for these companies. I rely on this every day as my income. However, we need to stand together as our coal miners and protect our industry. You take Friends of Coal, the Kentucky Coal Associati on, I've supported it for many years. However, now, with the recent layoffs, I would like to see these organizations come back and help our miners that are out of work. That is a question that all of the coal miners, everybody needs to ask: When are these corporations going to come back and support our area in other ways than mining coal? Granted, it is a wond erful economy, it is a1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25

SWORN TESTIMONY , PLLC 2404 Doubletree Court , Lexington , Kentucky 40514 ( 859 ) 533 - 8961 60 wonderful job with great benefits. I have a college education and can't do any better than working underground. I can 't ask for a better job. However, I would like to see these corporations, these million dollar companies come back and show just a little bit of support for us when we're out of work. And that's all. MS. MacPHERSON: Than k you. Thank you. (Applause) MS. MacPHERSON: Okay. Next speaker, please. SPEAKER NO. 33: I'm number 33. My name is Jennifer Lee, L-e-e. And I'm with the Harlan County Chamber of Commerce. For decades, this reg ion has provided the resources necessary to provide energy to our country. We've built our local economies on this foundation and dedicated ou r lives to providing coal to our nation. Harlan County needs the coal industry to survive. While many point out that the permit issue is only affecting surface mini ng, in our community the overwhelming majority of coal operations are underground and they are sl owly being squeezed out by these policy decisions. Unfortunately, in our community there are p recious few opportunities for1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25

SWORN TESTIMONY , PLLC 2404 Doubletree Court , Lexington , Kentucky 40514 ( 859 ) 533 - 8961 61 growth. There are no major highways encouraging economic development and su pporting commerce among the small towns nestled in the folds of our mountains. As Executive Director of the Harlan County Chamber of Commerce, I am concerned about the immediate future of all of our people and all of our businesses that d epend on coal for jobs, ranging from our engi neers and geologists to our truck drivers. As miners l ose their jobs and move on, Harlan County loses not only our families but all of our merchants, teachers, doctors, lawyers, and other professionals who se work disappears with them. We've been through to ugh times before, but never faced such a daunting combination of political and market forces killing our only viable industry. Mar ket ups and downs we understand; that's business. We can all agree that regulations, fair treatment, and responsible oversight are necessary and beneficial. But the indiscriminate application of policies and interpretation, rather than laws and regulations that teach Appalachian mining, is unacceptable while approving operations in other areas is1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25

SWORN TESTIMONY , PLLC 2404 Doubletree Court , Lexington , Kentucky 40514 ( 859 ) 533 - 8961 62 unjust and potentiall y catastrophic to our livelihood. Thank you. (Applause) PUBLIC SPEAKER: My n ame is Bill Bissett, and I'm president of the Kentuc ky Coal Association. We represent the 18,0 00 men and women who mine the coal in Kentucky every day. For every one coal miner, three other jobs are dependent on that coal miner for their jobs. (Applause). So when we have a layoff, when mines close, you are not just affecting the miners, you are affecting three other jobs as well. I want to thank you, Jim, for the opportunity to address you again, as I did in Frankfort. Let me tell you about Frankfort . We had thousands of people there in the Capitol , where they do not mine coal, Democrats and Republicans, coal miners from west and eastern Kentucky with their families, who were overwhel ming the loudest voice in that town that day standing up for Kentucky coal, and we need to thank them. (Applause). I have some questions today for the Environmental Protection Agency. I would appreciate a response by writing, if possible. Where is Lisa Jackson today? What does she have1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25

SWORN TESTIMONY , PLLC 2404 Doubletree Court , Lexington , Kentucky 40514 ( 859 ) 533 - 8961 63 to do that is more im portant than these jobs and these people of eastern Ken tucky? Where is Gwen Keyes Fleming today, the Region 4 Administrator? What is she doing that is more important than this hearing today? When you started this guidance, it was six states: Tennessee, Virgini a, Ohio, Pennsylvania, Kentucky, and West Virginia. A y ear later you removed four of the s tates and maintained this policy in eastern Kentucky and West Virginia. Why were the other four states released? I would assume it is because they are battleground states for the upcoming election and the President needs their support. That is politically motivated and that is wrong. It is selective enforcement to single out eastern Kentucky and West Virginia. The fish don't care who are on the border of the state. They are drinking the same water. It doesn't make any sense. Why only eastern Kentucky? Why does the same mining permit in western Kentucky got approv ed by your office, yet the eastern Kentucky surfac e mining is objected to? That is selectiv e enforcement and that is wrong. Why did it ta ke one and a half years to do these public hearings? Why is only coal being1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25

SWORN TESTIMONY , PLLC 2404 Doubletree Court , Lexington , Kentucky 40514 ( 859 ) 533 - 8961 64 singled out? What about highway construction, agriculture, and othe r large earthmoving equipment? We appreciate you lis tening today. And as my good friend Don Gibson said , you are going to hear from us again in November. (Applause) MS. MacPHERSON: Okay. Thank you. Next speaker, please. SPEAKER NO. 91: Good afternoon. My name is Michael Bryant, Jr., B-r-y- a-n-t. I'm speaker number 91. I'd like to let the a udience know, I've been employed in the coal industry for 40 years. I had one termination of coal act ivity. I served my country for 13 months during active duty and wearing an American uniform . At no time did my President ever direct me to go take a working man's job from him to protect this country. And now it seems like we're under fire from the EPA, from the U.S. Corps of Engi neers, and this is not right. The United States Con stitution has an act that says, "No law will be made to be detrimental to another industry." So why is the U.S. coal1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25

SWORN TESTIMONY , PLLC 2404 Doubletree Court , Lexington , Kentucky 40514 ( 859 ) 533 - 8961 65 industry under attack in th e southern Appalachian coal fields? Why not the Illinois coal basin and why not Wyoming? Why aren't we all being treated the same way? Is their tim e in the barrel going to come after ours? When you cut off the tree of coal, the root will die. And it wil l also take every industry with it when it does that. All of the supporting industries will be gone. And now we find ourselves with a population shift that is called demographics. We look at all of these small communities that are getting smaller every day. The cities are getting smaller. We are consolidating schools. We have one school in each county. Where is the population going to? They are going to well-paying jo bs. We'll not make it as a tourist industry here in this state. And we will also not make it as an automobile manufacturing state, simply because nobody is going to locate here becaus e of the detrimental effects of the EPA, how they treat smoke stack industries. And I would like to a lso say that the present administration is so ill th ought of in the United States right now, the king is even saying he was1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25

SWORN TESTIMONY , PLLC 2404 Doubletree Court , Lexington , Kentucky 40514 ( 859 ) 533 - 8961 66 born here. So let's all get behind what is actually affecting us right now and change this thing. Hope -- MS. MacPHERSON: Than k you very much. (Applause) MS. MacPHERSON: Thank you. SPEAKER NO. 94: Hello. MS. MacPHERSON: The next speaker. Hello. SPEAKER NO. 94: My name is Mike Mays. And I'm number 94 on the list. I am a candidate, a Republican candidate, for the House of Delegates in West Virginia. I brought this cup wi th me for a certain reason. There are certain words in the English language that I have a medi cal condition that when those words, when I speak them, it causes me to have to spit, and I a pologize for that. But I would like to say to the EPA that you are in Pikeville, Kentucky, just to remind you. Some of you had problems with that a minute ago. (Applause). Pikeville, Kentucky is the home of the Hatfields and McCoys. And I will tell you, that if Randall or Devil Anse were alive today, they wouldn't be shooting at each other. And you know what I am referring to. (Applause).1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25

SWORN TESTIMONY , PLLC 2404 Doubletree Court , Lexington , Kentucky 40514 ( 859 ) 533 - 8961 67 But I would like to welcome you to eastern Kentucky. I am from southern West Virginia. I have lived in eastern Kentucky. And I know what it is like to face hardship in the coal industry. But never in my worst imaginations would I have ever thought that the biggest obstacle to the fine men and women who work in the coal industry was our own federal government. Mr. Obama -- there's -- there's one of those words. I'm sorry. (Indicating. Applause.) Mr. Obama has made it extremely difficult for us to make a living in the coal industry. And we are squandering a resource that cannot be replaced. And I am not referring to coal. I'm talking to those men and women who are the most professional miners in the world who bring coal out every day for our electricity bills to be something that is unequal in the world. We owe them a debt of gratitude. They saved this country in World War II. They will save this country again whenever needed. Thank you very much. (Applause) SPEAKER NO. 93: My number is 93. My name is George Helton, H-e-l-t-o-n. I'm proud to represent I'm a coal miner. I work for C & T1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25

SWORN TESTIMONY , PLLC 2404 Doubletree Court , Lexington , Kentucky 40514 ( 859 ) 533 - 8961 68 Coal. The EPA, they always want to drop our permits. They don't want to look at things equally, fair. We're not a villain. We are just human beings like you are. All we ask is to be a way of life. Why can't you look at things equally? If we are doing something so bad, set it up for the next gener ation instead of kicking everybody out. This country is not ready for using no more coal. It is going to be years down the road. Why don't you just ge t together and use your heads and dedicate yourself to setting up the next generation, the following generation. There is not a person in this room that does not want to leave their next generation , their grandkids, a better life. Do you just think we are so dirty because we mine coal you do n't want us to work? I don't understand why. I mean, people in the White House up there does not und erstand this industry a bit. Do you understand the complete process of mining coal? It is a construction job. In another 5 years, 10 years, you go down the road, if you don't know that mountain has been stripped, you will not be able to tell it. Why does1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25

SWORN TESTIMONY , PLLC 2404 Doubletree Court , Lexington , Kentucky 40514 ( 859 ) 533 - 8961 69 everybody don't want us to have a job, be with the United States. We're proud to be American. Why is the EPA taking fit on al l of the coal industry? Don't they look at wh at everybody else in the United States does, the nuc lear system. Look at Japan over there. How many generations is going to die from what happened o ver there last year? Can't people take and realize and understand why? Thank you. (Applause) SPEAKER NO. 96: I ha ve an assigned number of 96. My name is Roger Horton. I'm here representing the Citizens for Coal, the Mountaintop Mining Coalitio n, the West Virginia Coal Association, the West Virginia Coal Forum, and all of the West Virgini ans who care about West Virginia and our great country. You know, yesterday p assed June the 6th. Sixty-eight years ago a lot of coal miners went to liberate a country, f ighting in World War II. They fought. Many of them died, because they believed in this great nati on. I have a message for the EPA. The men and women that you are confronting in the coal fie ld today are just as adamant about whooping somebody's butt as those1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25

SWORN TESTIMONY , PLLC 2404 Doubletree Court , Lexington , Kentucky 40514 ( 859 ) 533 - 8961 70 great men and women who die d during that war. We have had enough of th e belittlement of the professional jobs that we c arry out. So I'm here to tell you that we are going through the proper channels. It will all be done lawfully, as we all prescribe to do. We are coming to Charleston with our votes and with our comments. And if not very careful, this EPA you see will have so little power they will not be able to leave that place up there. They won't have the gas to get out. I'm here to tell you that the coal industry is vital to the communities and to the national security of this United Sta tes, and we're willing to fight for it, and we're going to do it. And I appreciate your time and for the opportunity to speak, so thank you very very much. MS. MacPHERSON: Thank you very much. (Applause) PUBLIC SPEAKER: My name is Jimmy Hall. And I live in Millers Cre ek, Letcher County, Kentucky. I want to commend the miners for keeping the lights on for us. I want to condemn the coal companies, the big boys, fo r destroying my water, trying to take my land from me. A gentleman said something about the Hatfiel ds and McCoys. I guess1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25

SWORN TESTIMONY , PLLC 2404 Doubletree Court , Lexington , Kentucky 40514 ( 859 ) 533 - 8961 71 that's how I feel. I'm the fourth, fifth generation of this pr operty. I've had contamination, a hydr aulic wall, anti-freeze, abandoned equipment, and ev erything else on this property. It took eight years for me to get them to pick up the garbage. I am not allowed to go out here and change my oil or drain my radiator into the ground. If everybody in this United States of ours goes out and does that, can you imagine what is going to happen to our water? Right now, we are fighting for water in Millers Creek. We have lead and arsenic in our water. It is contaminate. We need help over there. We need water. We don't need to pay for taps. We don't need to pay for the waterline. We don't mind paying the bill. But the whole thing is, it is nice to have a job working for the mines. It is nice to make $22.7 billion for a Christmas bonus, and I'm talking about the CEO for a major company. Bring some of that money back and give the poor people th at don't have water and some of the other things that they need around here, what they -- what they made. The miners, I praise them. They do a good job. I am not a miner. I put nuts and bolts on1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25

SWORN TESTIMONY , PLLC 2404 Doubletree Court , Lexington , Kentucky 40514 ( 859 ) 533 - 8961 72 cars all my life. But I am a Kentuckian. I fill out something on a form, "Where are you born and raised?" I say, "Deane, Kentucky." I am in here trying to tell you, we need decent water. And if you are going to take and -- EPA, thank you. Because if we didn't have the rules, it would be worse. Thank you. (Applause) MS. MacPHERSON: Thank you very much. Okay. At this moment, I believe r ight now you are out -- oh. We have two, two more speakers. And then, as far as I know, we don 't have any other speakers registered. We're going to take a 15 minute break so that if others want to register to speak, we will do so and then come back after the break. But we'll hear from these l ast two right now. Please go ahead. PUBLIC SPEAKER: My n ame is Jack Earl Smith. I am a small business perso n from Phelps. I run a gas station, motel, laundry mats. And I've been in business there for 35 years, do construction business, paving, backhoe, and septic stuff. I see myself as a small entrepreneur. But I did work in the coal mines back in the early 70s. For sever al years I was an1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25

SWORN TESTIMONY , PLLC 2404 Doubletree Court , Lexington , Kentucky 40514 ( 859 ) 533 - 8961 73 electrician, mechanic. And then I become a mine foreman and got into the coal business for a while. And the coal business -- coal is the top dog in Pike County and eastern Kentucky. Without coal, the money would dry up in my stream. I am not foolish enough, like some people think, we don't need coal. But we do need coal. But we need to do it in a balanced approach. And everybody gets hot on different issues. But the truth of the matter is, in years past the EPA and environmentalis ts and the regulators have done some good. In the early 60s and the 50s, when I went hunting in the hills it was dangerous to get up there and look down on the valleys. But it has change d. I was against coal strip mining at that time. But now it has grown up, because of some n udging from government. And smart coal operators, now they mine in a reasonable way. Now it is a win-win situation for the coal industry. Besides people making money, feeding their families and feeding us other guys that does other businesses, keeping the taxes paid to balance the budget, it h as become a win-win. When you go on the mo untaintop, I have got a friend up there at the airport, it is a strip job,1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25

SWORN TESTIMONY , PLLC 2404 Doubletree Court , Lexington , Kentucky 40514 ( 859 ) 533 - 8961 74 and you see elk herds, you can see deers, you can see all kinds of animals, the turkeys. And so -- and people live up there. They have got golf courses at different places and different businesses. So it's a win-win. And we need the coal industry. And t hey are mining in a reasonable way. And the EPA has been a benefit some in the past. It hasn't all been bad. I went to Chicago in the early 50s -- I mean the 70s, really. And the air was so terrible you couldn't breathe. But now it is improved. But now you are bad on the landfills. It is not a terrible thing. The streams, they want to say we can't build the landfills on it. There is no water there 95 percent of t he time. So let them do the landfills. You are getting too tough. Back off some. We need you some, but don't overdo it. Thank you. MS. MacPHERSON: Thank you. (Applause) MS. MacPHERSON: Thank you. Okay. Next speaker, please. PUBLIC SPEAKER: Hell o? Is this on? MS. MacPHERSON: It is. PUBLIC SPEAKER: All right. My name is Alex1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25

SWORN TESTIMONY , PLLC 2404 Doubletree Court , Lexington , Kentucky 40514 ( 859 ) 533 - 8961 75 Desha. That's D-e-s-h-a. I'm a member of the Sierra Club, and I live in Letcher County, Kentucky, and I can't drink the water. You can walk by just about any holler with surface mining and see poison water in dead streams. There is a patter n of violations by coal companies in regards to cle an water. We are here today because the state has failed us. The Beshear Administratio n does not seem to care about people or water. The y seem more concerned about the bottom line, of c oal CEOs that pay themselves $6 million a year, fl y around in their proud helicopters, and vacation in their second homes while they talk about the EPA killing jobs. They do all this while they layoff real people. They, like our state leadership, do not care about people. Since they d on't care about people, they certainly don't care a bout clean water. They want you, the EPA, to back down and lift your objections or water them down so much that they don't matter. This is a fa ct. Water quality is a good indicator of human health. People living near the destruction suffer disproportionate rates of cancer, birth defects, a nd mortality. It is clear the state is not up to the task, and coal1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25

SWORN TESTIMONY , PLLC 2404 Doubletree Court , Lexington , Kentucky 40514 ( 859 ) 533 - 8961 76 companies will not po lice themselves. Do not listen to the fear being peddled by the coal industry. I want you to hold the line and revoke the state's authority to administer the NPDES program. Thank you. MS. MacPHERSON: Okay . Thank you. (Applause) MS. MacPHERSON: So at this time we are going to take a 15 minute break. And maybe if you could put the 15 minute clock up. If there are any additional registrant s, please go out to the front and we'll come back a nd we'll close up the hearing. (1:40 p.m. BREAK 1:57 p.m.) MS. MacPHERSON: Okay. As far as I know, we've had no more reg istrations for people to speak. Is that right? So at this time, Jim will deliver the closing remarks. And I just want to remind people that we will vacate when we close and then re-open at 5 p.m. for the evenin g hearing. Thank you. MR. GIATTINA: Thank you everybody for hanging in there, those of you that are still here. I do want to e mphasize that I am very pleased to be in Pike ville, Kentucky. And I want1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25

SWORN TESTIMONY , PLLC 2404 Doubletree Court , Lexington , Kentucky 40514 ( 859 ) 533 - 8961 77 to thank each of you for your participation at this public hearing. The comments, as I said at the outset, that we receive, both oral and written, will be considered and evalua ted by the EPA in making its decision regarding the perm it objections. After consideration of the admini strative record, the requirements of the Clean Water Act and its regulations, the EPA Region 4 Regional Administrator will make a determination concerning the objections and wi ll notify Kentucky DOW, the district, and all persons having written comments or oral statements if you provided a mailing address to us. Additional information can be obtained through t he EPA's website. And, again, thank you very much for your participation. I know this is an important issue for the people of this regi on. And if you have any other questions or comments, you can always reach the EPA through our website or through our public informat ion office. So this hearing is now adjourned. Thank you. (Public hearing conclud ed at 1:58 p.m.)1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25

SWORN TESTIMONY , PLLC 2404 Doubletree Court , Lexington , Kentucky 40514 ( 859 ) 533 - 8961 78 REPORTER'S CERTIFICATE STATE OF KENTUCKY ) COUNTY OF FAYETTE )

I, LISA M. SCHWARZE, RPR, KyCCR, and Notary Public in and for the Common wealth of Kentucky at Large, do hereby certify tha t the facts as stated by me in the caption hereto are true; that the foregoing proceedings as indicat ed were made before me by the parties hereinbefore named, and were thereafter reduced to computer-aided transcription by me and under my supervision; and that the same is a true and accurate transcript of the p roceedings to the best of my ability.

I further certify that I am no t employed by, related to, nor of counsel f or any of the parties herein, nor otherwise intere sted in the outcome of this proceeding.

IN WIT NESS WHEREOF, I have affixed my signature and seal this 11th day of June, 2012.

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_ LISA M. SCHWARZE, RPR, KyCCR Notary Public, State-at-Large 2404 Doubletree Court Lexington, Kentucky 40514 859.533.8961 My Commission Expires: June 13, 2013