NATIONAL GUARD BUREAU

Historical Services Branch

Interview NGB-17

INTERVIEW OF

CHAPLAIN (LTC)(P) EDWARD KANE, 

CHAPLAIN (LTC) PATRICK HOLDER,

CHAPLAIN (CPT) LAURENCE BAZER,

CHAPLAIN (CPT) FRANK CIAMPA, 

New York Army National Guard

CONDUCTED BY

MAJ LES’ MELNYK

National Guard Bureau

Thursday, September 20, 2001

Chaplain Chiampa submitted corrections to his portion 

of the transcript, Jan. 2002

Chaplain Holder reviewed transcript and returned 

without changes, Feb. 2002

Editorial clarifications are enclosed in brackets []

TAPE TRANSCRIPTION
2

1 P R O C E E D I N G S

2 MAJ MELNYK: This is MAJ Les Melnyk, Army 

3 National Guard Historian for the National Guard Bureau, 

4 and I am interviewing a group of chaplains.

5 Chaplain Patrick Holder, Chaplain Frank 

6 Ciampa, that is C-i-a-m-p-a, and Chaplain Edward Kane, 

7 K-a-n-e.

8 Today is 20 September 2001, and this interview 

9 is taking place in the 7th Regiment Armory on Park 

10 Avenue in New York City.

11 Gentlemen, if each of you, in turn, beginning 

12 with Father Kane, would identify your unit, your rank, 

13 and give a very brief synopsis of your military career, 

14 and, also, your civilian religious affiliation.

15 Father Kane?

16 CHAPLAIN KANE: I'm Chaplain Lieutenant 

17 Colonel promotable, now, Edward R.P. Kane, Chaplain of 

18 the 42nd Infantry Rainbow Division, headquartered in 

19 Troy, New York.

20 I live in Brooklyn, New York, in Canarsie, 

21 Brooklyn. I'm Associate Pastor of Holy Family Roman 
3

1 Catholic Church there.

2 And I have been down here since the day of the 

3 incident on the 11th of September, working with the 

4 troops and various different commands, as is needed, 

5 because of the shortage of priests. 

6 MAJ MELNYK: Chaplain Ciampa.

7 CHAPLAIN CIAMPA: Chaplain CPT Frank Ciampa, 

8 the 105th Infantry Battalion, 27th Enhanced Brigade, 

9 and I'm from Brooklyn, New York, where I'm the Senior 

10 Pastor, Good Shepherd Lutheran Church, and I'm a member 

11 of the Lutheran Church, Missouri Synod. 

12 As far as my military background, I'm a former 

13 Marine active duty, then reserves, and then came into 

14 the chaplaincy through the National Guard about two and 

15 a half years.

16 MAJ MELNYK: Chaplain Holder, if you would 

17 introduce yourself.

18 CHAPLAIN HOLDER: Chaplain LTC Patrick L. 

19 Holder. I am the post chaplain at Camp Smith. I am a 

20 Elam fellowship chaplain, the only one the Army has, 

21 and I'm also Pastor of United Methodist Church. I'll 
4

1 let you figure that out. In Elmira Heights.

2 MAJ MELNYK: Camp Smith is located where?

3 CHAPLAIN HOLDER: About 30 miles north of 

4 here. It's the staging area for a lot of the troops 

5 coming down here.

6 MAJ MELNYK: Troops coming in here. Given 

7 that many of the people listening to this tape won't be 

8 familiar with the New York Army National Guard.

9 CHAPLAIN KANE: It's New York Army National 

10 Guard training site, nine miles south of West Point, 

11 across the river, and we do train from West Point, and 

12 it's the second largest police training area in the 

13 world, after Quantico. 

14 MAJ MELNYK: Thank you. That was Father Kane 

15 speaking. 

16 We are also joined by Chaplain Laurence Bazer. 

17 That's B-a-z-e-r. 

18 Chaplain Bazer, if you --

19 CHAPLAIN BAZER: L-a-u-r-e-n-c-e.

20 MAJ MELNYK: First name L-a-u-r-e-n-c-e. No 

21 W. If you would, introduce yourself, please.
5

1 CHAPLAIN BAZER: I'm Chaplain CPT Laurence

2 Bazer. I'm a Rabbi and I'm from the 642nd Aviation 

3 Support Battalion, based out of Williamsburg, Brooklyn. 

4 We also have assets, another unit in Brooklyn and also 

5 in Ronkonkoma.

6 Our main mission is repair of UH-1s and UH-60s 

7 and also tracked vehicles through our Bravo Company. 

8 I'm a congregational rabbi in Hauppauge, Long 

9 Island, where I serve full-time, and I am also a 

10 chaplain for the New York Office of the FBI.

11 MAJ MELNYK: Thank you. If each you, briefly, 

12 could tell me how you learned of the attacks on 

13 September 11, what was your immediate response, who did 

14 you report to, what immediate actions did you take on 

15 the 11th? Beginning with you, Chaplain Kane.

16 CHAPLAIN KANE: This is Chaplain Kane. I 

17 originally found out about it, I was listening to the 

18 radio, preparing for morning mass on Tuesday.

19 I originally thought it was an accident, a 

20 plane or a helicopter had crashed into the tower, and 

21 then immediately turned on the TV and watched it and 
6

1 then saw the second plane going in, and eventually saw 

2 on TV the things crashing.

3 I knew immediately that we were going to need 

4 the support of the military in there because this thing 

5 was going to be catastrophic.

6 And we heard the reports about Washington, 

7 too. So we knew that this was an organized effort and 

8 we knew we had gone to DEFCON Delta.

9 We have a procedure, which I'd rather not 

10 discuss, that we use for notification, which had to be 

11 used, because my personal phones in the rectory, 

12 because of the World Trade Center, and the cell phone, 

13 all went down, we were out of communication. 

14 We still are, actually. We're using other 

15 means of communication now at the parish.

16 MAJ MELNYK: Where did you report in?

17 CHAPLAIN KANE: I reported, originally called 

18 the state chaplain, because I'm the major chaplain 

19 command of the 42nd, called my division --

20 MAJ MELNYK: Who is the State chaplain?

21 CHAPLAIN KANE: State chaplain is Chaplain COL 
7

1 Jacob Goldstein, a rabbi who is the only Hasidic rabbi 

2 I believe in the armed forces right now, and he is the 

3 New York State STARC – State Area Command - chaplain.

4 It took me a while to get in touch with him 

5 and our division leadership, other than myself and LTC 

6 Atwood, who is an administrative officer, were the only 

7 two division officers left in the state.

8 All other officers were at a Warfighter 

9 exercise in Fort Leavenworth, Kansas at the time. So I 

10 immediately went in and made contact with the units on 

11 the ground.

12 MAJ MELNYK: By went in, where did you 

13 physically go to?

14 CHAPLAIN KANE: I went into Battery Park City 

15 with my -- Battery Park, actually, with my civilian 

16 vehicle.

17 MAJ MELNYK: When did you arrive there? 

18 CHAPLAIN KANE: Approximately about one p.m. 

19 and then it was quite messy in there. I had to take my 

20 car out and have the air conditioner filter replaced 

21 and washed three times to get the soot off. It was 
8

1 pretty bad. 

2 But I drove into -- out of the tunnel and into 

3 the park and parked there and then started walking 

4 around.

5 I did not have any regular equipment with me, 

6 because I was supposed to leave the Guard and turn most 

7 of it in. Fortunately, I had a little bit of Vietnam 

8 equipment and a Kevlar helmet and a bandana, because 

9 nobody really had masks down there in the beginning.

10 MAJ MELNYK: So you were uniformed or you were 

11 wearing --

12 CHAPLAIN KANE: No. Working with some of the 

13 personnel, at that point, it wasn't too organized. We 

14 were joining the firemen and cops and anybody who 

15 could, just pulling people out of the mess and going in 

16 there and just picking up body parts.

17 At that point, they were stacking the body 

18 parts with little signs, Tower One, Tower Two, what 

19 body, what site did you find it in. We had no body 

20 bags at that point. Literally to reach people.

21 At that point, I knew that we were trying to 
9

1 get organized. So I returned to Brooklyn, to the 

armory of the 342nd 2 , A Company, to try to see what they 

3 were doing.

4 MAJ MELNYK: By 342nd?

5 CHAPLAIN KANE: Forward Support Battalion, A 

6 Company. The Ammo and Refuel Company, part of the 

7 support of the 3rd Brigade, and also had a detachment 

8 of C Company, which was medical. Those were the 

9 closest people there.

10 And I was quite worried about the state 

11 chaplain at this point, because his office was at Two 

12 Beaver Street, a block and a half away. Fortunately, 

13 he was not there at that time.

14 There are going to be many stories of people, 

15 both in the military and civilian life, of lost family 

16 members or close friends out of this thing.

17 I have two cousins assigned to the fire 

18 department, two houses down there, both fire 

19 lieutenants, fortunately were not on duty at that time. 

20 That was the other concern of mine when I went in 

21 there.
10

1 MAJ MELNYK: Did you see any military 

2 personnel on that first trip down there? 

3 CHAPLAIN KANE: Yes. And it was a bit 

4 disorganized. We had people who were Reservists and 

5 Guardsmen and New York Guardsmen, which are not 

6 federally recognized, who had uniforms in their offices 

7 and were reporting down there.

8 We had active Air Force and Marines and 

9 whatnot showing up.

10 The Inspection and Instruction Battalion of 

11 the Marine Corps, if I got that right, that whole group 

12 of people had shown up.

13 The problem was they had no protective gear, 

14 no Kevlar, no gloves, no masks, zippo, and this was a 

15 danger to them because the air down there at that time 

16 was really hazardous.

17 Just the pulverized cement and pulverized 

18 glass that was in the area. We kept warning people 

19 don't rub your eyes, there's powdered glass in the air, 

20 flush them out, and we had to send quite a few people 

21 over to have their eyes flushed out.
11

1 We may still see people with some minor eye 

2 damage or even permanent damage. We don't know at this 

3 point.

4 MAJ MELNYK: I imagine --

5 CHAPLAIN KANE: I anointed several people who 

6 were living. Once they're dead, they are dead, we said 

7 the prayers to the dead. There were several morgue 

8 sites set up. 

9 We went in and in some cases, those morgue 

10 sites had to be quickly abandoned, taking the bodies 

11 out, because those buildings immediately near, such as 

12 Brooks Brothers, were not stable and one of them, I 

13 believe, did collapse or were helped to collapse 

14 because of the danger to people in proximity.

15 MAJ MELNYK: You got in there very early when 

16 there was still a great deal of fire.

17 CHAPLAIN KANE: There was fire, smoke, and the 

18 air was very, very bad. I put on -- knowing what I was 

19 facing with the dust and whatnot, I put on an older set 

20 of glasses, because I knew that my good glasses would 

21 be scratched up bad if I didn't and I wouldn't be able 
12

1 to see.

2 My car has scratches on the windshield just

3 from the fine dust that settled there, and when I used 

4 the windshield wiper, it just scratched them up nicely. 

5 Not too badly, but it's there. 

6 There were quite a few military who came down 

7 there and, as I said, did not really have proper gear 

8 for this stuff, and we had to evacuate them.

9 Some of them, in fact, quite ill. I haven't 

10 heard any points of any permanent illness, but 

11 breathing that polluted air down there that was 

12 principally dust and they had to be removed from the 

13 site.

14 MAJ MELNYK: Moving on. Chaplain Ciampa, if 

15 you could discuss where you were when you learned of 

16 the attacks, your immediate reactions to it, who did 

17 you report to, and what did you do?

18 CHAPLAIN CIAMPA: Okay. I was working on my 

19 computer in Brooklyn and somebody called me and said 

20 did you know there was a terrorist attack on the World 

21 Trade Center – it’s on TV, and I said I didn't know.
13

1 [I looked on TV real quickly and then] I went 

2 to down to Marine Park in Brooklyn, where you can 

3 usually see the World Trade Center and saw all the 

4 smoke and everything. 

5 MAJ MELNYK: Were the towers still standing at 

6 that time or no?

7 CHAPLAIN CIAMPA: They were still standing, 

8 but the smoke was so thick, you couldn't see it, at 

9 least from the Brooklyn side. Later the smoke was 

10 actually coming all the way over my house eventually 

11 and then the smell, as well. 

12 And then I heard on the news that the National 

13 Guard was being called up. I contacted them, but they 

14 didn't actually get back to me till very, very early 

15 the next morning.

16 Now, my unit was activated that night. Two 

17 battalions [correction – companies] and headquarters 

18 battalion [correction – company], went to Camp Smith, 

19 Delta is upstate, and headquarters in Schenectady.

20 But the two companies that are local [Bravo 

21 and Charlie], one on Lexington Avenue down at 25th 
14

1 Street and the other in Jamaica, Queens, they were here 

2 that night pulling security in the Canal Street area.

3 MAJ MELNYK: So the 642 had units on Canal 

4 Street about what time?

5 CHAPLAIN CIAMPA: Well, this is the 105th. 

6 MAJ MELNYK: I'm sorry. The 105th. That's 

7 right.

8 CHAPLAIN CIAMPA: They were in place and doing 

9 there thing, I was told, a little before midnight.

10 MAJ MELNYK: Right. I've spoken with some of 

11 the soldiers. That's about right.

12 CHAPLAIN CIAMPA: Then I came in through 

13 Battery Tunnel early that morning, I'm not sure what 

14 time, maybe seven.

15 MAJ MELNYK: Early Wednesday morning.

16 CHAPLAIN CIAMPA: Maybe seven. One of the 

17 first things I saw were some 69th soldiers as soon as I 

18 came out of the tunnel. The scene was like Chaplain 

19 Kane described.

20 I then reported in at the armory at 25th and 

21 Lexington, immediately I was sent down there [to the 
15

1 vicinity of the World Trade Center], where one company 

[B Company, 105th 2 Infantry] was pulling security a few 

3 blocks away and another was working for the fire chief 

4 right on the site.

5 And eventually the other company was moved up 

6 there, as well. We were bivouaced in the Goldman-Sachs 

7 building on Water and Maiden, for a little while in the 

8 lobby, and now we're in Two Federal Plaza, on the 14th 

9 floor, which is vacant.

10 MAJ MELNYK: That's where they have their CP, 

11 Bravo and Charlie Companies.

12 CHAPLAIN CIAMPA: Yes. That's where we sleep, 

13 and the CP. Actually, the CP is rather informal and 

14 located on the site, but there's an administrative one 

15 on the 14th floor. 

16 MAJ MELNYK: The Bravo and Charlie soldiers 

17 are not returning to their armories in the evenings?

18 CHAPLAIN CIAMPA: No. No. We sleep about two 

19 blocks away at Two Federal Plaza. Just recently, they 

20 started rotating guys home, which is a good break for 

21 them, because all day long they're standing on the 
16

1 rubble and everything.

2 The fire chief needed [security to restore and 

maintain order in this area. So this is what the 105th 3

4 did] I'm the only chaplain from the 27th Brigade who 

5 made it this far, because I live nearby. The other 

6 ones were sent back or held up a while and sent back.

7 And even our -- since our brigade never got 

8 down here and the whole battalion never even got down 

9 here, we had two companies without a mission and the 

10 fire chief put us to work.

11 And we went through, on paper, being attached 

12 to various units, but the fire chief always kept 

13 control of us as his security force and whenever he 

14 needed some more hands. 

15 And that's what we’ve been doing.

16 MAJ MELNYK: Chaplain Holder, if you would 

17 also tell us how you found out about the attack, who 

18 you reported to, your immediate actions.

19 CHAPLAIN HOLDER: Basically, I found out as I 

20 took my uniform into the dry cleaners to get ready for 

21 a MUTA-4, and I'm standing there and saw the lady had 
17

1 the news on and the first tower was on fire, and I 

2 said, "That looks like the World Trade Center," and she 

3 says "It is," and just then I saw the second plane come 

4 in.

5 And I said I'm expecting a problem, so I may 

6 be back to pick up my uniform, and went back to the 

7 office and I was in the office probably not even 30 

8 minutes when I got called from Camp Smith and told that 

9 we were activating. 

10 MAJ MELNYK: Where did you go from Camp Smith?

11 CHAPLAIN HOLDER: No. I go to Camp Smith.

12 MAJ MELNYK: You went to Camp Smith.

13 CHAPLAIN HOLDER: I was at home, in my office 

14 at Elmira Heights.

15 MAJ MELNYK: Okay. And what brought you from 

16 Camp Smith down to this location? At what point did 

17 you deploy forward?

18 CHAPLAIN HOLDER: I am still at Camp Smith. I 

19 have been traveling down during the daytimes, visiting 

20 the soldiers that came through Camp Smith, some of whom 

21 I counseled before they came down here, and I followed 
18

1 up by coming down to see them and see how they're 

2 doing, and I've been down at the site and talked to 

3 some of the soldiers on the site, too. 

4 MAJ MELNYK: Chaplain Bazer, if you would.

5 CHAPLAIN BAZER: I learned about it, I was 

6 actually waiting for a carpet, a person to come and 

7 install carpet in our house.

8 I was going to head off to my synagogue to 

9 start working on sermons to write to get ready for the 

10 high holy days, which were just two days ago. 

11 And then I saw something happen. I also 

12 thought, oh, my God, a plane must have just crashed 

13 into -- a horrible accident, and then seeing the second 

14 plane crash in and realizing that things were turning 

15 bad - quite quickly, hearing the rest of the reports.

16 I wear two hats - or two yarmulkes, really. 

17 One is National Guard Chaplain, but also as an FBI 

18 Chaplain, and I'm first in contact with one of the 

19 other chaplains from the Bureau.

20 We were both going to head in and I actually 

21 first headed into the area, it's about an hour drive 
19

1 into the city, as an FBI Chaplain.

2 So I came in under those auspices. I still 

3 remember seeing what would -- the smoke billowing from 

4 my first sight of lower Manhattan, where there used to 

5 be the towers.

6 Long Island Expressway, which is an 

7 interesting phenomena, was just completely jam-packed. 

8 You would see some military people driving, people in 

9 their uniform, along with all the other emergency 

10 vehicles. We were all in the left-hand lane.

11 It jammed up until you got to the police 

12 security point and then with proper identification it 

13 was just clear sailing right into the city, with a lot 

14 of security at all the bridges and tunnels.

15 I first came in, parked on the east side.

16 MAJ MELNYK: You came through the Midtown 

17 Tunnel?

18 CHAPLAIN BAZER: Midtown Tunnel, headed down 

19 the West Side Highway -- excuse me -- the FDR and 

20 parked near one of the lower fire houses near South 

21 Street Seaport, and that general area, and then started 
20

1 walking.

2 My uniforms were all in the car, because I 

3 knew I would probably be switching over to National 

4 Guard. I did not hear at that point that my unit was 

5 formally activated.

6 I found out later on, my wife told me that I 

7 got the phone call.

8 And I do remember walking through Wall Street 

9 and it was about an inch to two inches worth of ash on 

10 everything. Beautiful flowers covered with ash. 

11 Fruits stands covered with the ash, the famous bull in 

12 Wall Street just complete covered. People walking in a 

13 daze, not really going on. 

14 I then remember looking down one of the 

15 streets and seeing what I think is building number 

16 either three or four just completely black. It was 

17 just this black hole it looked like. It was just this 

18 huge ring of fire around the building. 

19 I saw that, all the commotion. I finally made 

20 my way up to the FBI command center.

21 Once I was in there, sort of checked into the 
21

1 system, did some counseling, did some grief counsel --

2 or some -- some quick shock counseling, there was 

3 someone, an agent who was buried under some rubble.

4 Spoke to the assistant director in charge, 

5 Barry Long, briefly, had a chance to speak to the U.S. 

6 attorney for the area, southern New York.

7 And so my first bit was under FBI and at the 

8 end of the day, once I finished with that, I headed 

9 back into and checked into my armory.

10 MAJ MELNYK: This was back in --

11 CHAPLAIN BAZER: It's the -- it's in 

12 Williamsburg, Brooklyn on Marcy Avenue, the 

13 headquarters company. 

14 And from there, once we got up, my commander 

15 was there and most of the senior staff, one of the 

16 things I then offered was to say what I saw on the 

17 ground, since I was, at that point, the only one that 

18 had actually visually seen what's going on, and then 

19 start putting in some of the things that I knew that 

20 our units would be needing.

21 For example, we had to get masks, just some 
22

1 sort of goggles or something. I was smart enough to 

2 bring a pair of goggles with me that I usually have at 

3 home when I barbecue, which I said were greatly needed 

4 because of the debris and just keeping as much 

5 (inaudible – smoke?) as possible. 

6 The masks, I even suggested they get the ones 

7 which were the respirator masks, because I started 

8 hearing that the cotton masks that everyone had in the 

9 beginning really were going to do nothing. 

10 And it was everything from, you know, we're 

11 going to need supplies, I even suggested hand soap and 

12 lotion, because if they're going to -- at that point, 

13 we did not know what our mission was, but if we were 

14 going to help in some of the removal, it would be very 

15 -- chances are our hands probably would have needed it 

16 afterwards.

17 By the next day, our unit was really picking 

18 up. They did not have a real specific mission. As a 

19 chaplain, I ended up sort of talking to them and I 

20 addressed all the troops when we were assembled in the 

21 morning, giving them a little bit of heads up of what 
23

1 they're going to be encountering.

2 Most of my unit now has been doing sort of 

3 police patrolling the area.

4 MAJ MELNYK: Perimeter.

5 CHAPLAIN BAZER: Perimeter patrol. I said, 

6 you know, you might be involved with removal, this is 

7 what you might be seeing, told them don't be shy, you 

8 know, if you can't take it, it's not a problem.

9 I also remarked to stick together. One thing 

10 I reported to my commander that I observed when I was 

11 out, when I was going up and checking on some of the 

12 soldiers that were doing various perimeter duties, very 

13 close on, a couple of them came back, didn't really 

14 look like they were from a unit, because a lot of 

15 people just sort of came in and put on their uniforms.

16 And one of them commented, "Hey, you know, I 

17 just spoke to a reporter," and I said, "Hey, one of the 

18 things you need to do, you're in uniform, you're a 

19 soldier, is that you're not supposed to address any of 

20 the press," I said, "because they'll take one little 

21 bit from what you're saying and then you may have been 
24

1 innocent, but they'll do whatever they want with it."

2 You need to refer them to - PAO, public 

3 affairs.

4 So when I addressed this at our battalion 

5 staff meeting and then I mentioned it to the troops and 

6 also various commanders reiterated that. I said, look, 

7 as tempting as it is, just excuse me, sir or ma'am, you 

8 need to speak to my commander, and the commander was 

9 able to refer, which is not -- because they -- what I 

10 have observed, especially in the beginning, reporters 

11 were looking for any little bit of information coming

12 out.

13 So I think soldiers appreciated that. I'm 

14 told now, because we're doing a large bit of perimeter 

15 patrol, that they're around a lot of press. So 

16 although they're not saying anything, they're getting a 

17 lot of good face time, which is good for our unit -

18 nice exposure.

19 For a while, our unit felt bored, quite 

20 honestly, because we didn't have any direct missions. 

21 There was a little bit of, I think, confusion coming 
25

1 down on exactly what our missions would be, until we 

2 started getting some night missions.

3 But in the last, I would say, you know, four, 

4 five, six days, from probably about Thursday on, things 

5 really started picking up and we -- the soldiers are 

6 feeling -- are feeling utilized. More supplies have 

7 come in.

8 So overall, the spirit has been good. They 

9 realize that even if they're just doing perimeter 

10 control, that it's an important mission, and that's one 

11 of the things I know some of the other -- some of the 

12 commanders have been trying to work with the troops.

13 Just one example, I did an overnight shift, 

14 the eight to eight evening shift, and I spent a lot of 

15 time walking around. This would have been Saturday 

16 evening, this past Saturday evening, spent a lot of 

17 time just walking around ground zero, really counseling 

18 and talking to everyone.

19 As I see, that's part of my role as chaplain. 

20 It's not just for our soldiers, but for the fire 

21 department, for the police department, the rescue 
26

1 workers.

2 One of the things that I feel that is crucial 

3 at a time like this is our role isn't just sort of -- I 

4 don't want to say it's almost going off in a corner and 

5 crying, but it really is what I see as a ministry of 

6 presence, and even as a rabbi, it didn't matter.

7 I put on my Kevlar helmet “Chaplain” because, 

8 unfortunately, my tablets and star aren't exactly the 

9 most recognizable symbols. 

10 So I got -- I asked my commander for 

11 permission to put this on my helmet, and that made a 

12 difference when they saw it, "Oh, Chaplain." 

13 MAJ MELNYK: Right.

14 CHAPLAIN BAZER: That helped. And a lot of it 

15 was just saying, hey, thanks for asking. That ministry 

16 of presence is crucial no matter where it was, whether 

17 I was talking to a soldier ten blocks away or right at 

18 ground zero.

19 I remember talking to one of the rescue 

20 handlers who works the dogs and this poor dog, 1:30 in 

21 the morning, just exhausted. I went to scratch it and 
27

1 it just gave a look up.

2 I mean, I was almost in tears. And we talked 

3 about how, you know, that Saturday night, as much as 

4 it's still, quote-unquote, “a rescue mission,” he had 

5 his doubts and we both said it had to -- if someone got 

6 into an area that was large enough, that had a vending 

7 machine right next to it, that they were able to 

8 survive maybe, but he had his doubts.

9 And I'm walking around. I spoke to one 

captain from, I believe, the 69th, the Fighting 69th 10 , 

11 and I said, "How are you doing?" and he said, "Holding 

12 up. You know, we're busy, the troops are holding up."

13 And I said, "Yeah," I said I agreed. He 

14 commented to me, "Well, when you just stop for a 

15 moment, not doing what you're supposed to do and just 

16 look, look what is," he said, "that's when it hits." I 

17 said I agree.

18 So we just paused for a moment together and 

19 shook hands, nodded to each other, and said take care, 

20 God bless. He said, "Thank you, Chaplain," and went 

21 off.
28

1 I see this, for the Chaplain Corps, really a 

2 sacred mission that we are doing out there, close by or 

3 far away.

4 It's very important that we are there and that 

5 we have the presence, and I find that we are greatly 

6 appreciated from all fronts.

7 MAJ MELNYK: I saw that right before this 

8 interview, you had a meeting with all of the chaplains 

9 involved or as many as you could get on site here, and 

10 you were talking with, I believe she was a --

11 CHAPLAIN KANE: She's the division surgeon, 

12 colonel Joan Sullivan, M.D. 

13 MAJ MELNYK: So you're involved in and you're 

14 trying to recognize psychological stresses. Has a 

15 formal counseling program been set up? Is there a key 

16 person who has established some sort of a formal 

17 overview? Who is in charge of that? Chaplain Father 

18 Kane.

19 CHAPLAIN KANE: Yes. We had a detachment, I 

20 believe it was detachment six or seven of the medics 

21 from Division of Military and Naval Affairs at State 
29

1 Headquarters was put together.

2 They have been rotating doctors in and out. 

3 There are psychologists and also some medically trained 

4 social workers, medical service corps personnel, who 

5 have come down to do the critical incident stress 

6 management team that was set up, and they've set up 

7 along with some civilians and have roving teams going 

8 around the perimeter looking at our own soldiers and 

9 also some other personnel as they're faced with 

10 immediate emergency.

11 They have also been doing sick call here twice 

12 a day in the building here at the 7th Regiment Armory, 

13 because they have the doctors on site, and they've 

14 been, as I said, rotating in medical personnel, as 

15 needed.

16 MAJ MELNYK: And who is in charge of that?

17 CHAPLAIN KANE: They initially -- MAJ 

18 Hershman, I believe is the name.

19 MAJ MELNYK: Can you spell that?

20 CHAPLAIN KANE: I have his card. Hold on a 

21 second. I can pull that out. This is MAJ Alan L. 
30

1 Hershman, who is a Major, Medical Service Corps, Ph.D., 

2 Psychologist.

3 MAJ MELNYK: And he is organizing that effort.

4 CHAPLAIN KANE: He was a chief organizer, 

5 although we had doctors of medicine who outranked him, 

6 he was in charge and still is, I believe, to this 

7 point.

8 He became part. We asked for them and they 

9 came down and they've worked closely with the chaplains 

10 from day one to reach out.

11 And we've had, fortunately, not too many 

12 soldiers at this point who have had problems. From my 

13 own experience as a combat soldier in Vietnam and 

14 dealing with Veterans over the years, I was the State 

15 Chaplain of Veterans of Foreign Wars and I've worked 

16 with many of them over many years, this is not going to 

17 really sit home for some of these fellows and gals 

18 until maybe three or four days after they have stood 

19 down.

20 Some it happens earlier to, and some may not 

21 react to this for a month after the incident from what 
31

1 they've seen.

2 Not everybody has seen the bodies. Not 

3 everybody has been at ground zero, immediately at the 

4 site. They've been at the perimeter and, in some 

5 cases, have been affected by dirt, by fog, the 

6 pestilence in the air, whatever is there. 

7 Now the air is beginning to smell because 

8 there are decaying body parts down there and the 

9 fellows, are picking up on an old trick, we were taking 

10 Vick's Vapor Rub and put a little spot under your nose, 

11 and that helps to kill the smell. You can taste it, 

12 but after a while, it will get in your mouth, you will 

13 not be able to get the taste out of your mouth.

14 Even liquor, hard liquor won't take the taste 

15 out of your mouth. It takes a day or two to get out.

16 This is something they've got to start dealing 

17 with now, a little bit more than usual.

18 MAJ MELNYK: And you said this has been in 

19 place since day one. When did --

20 CHAPLAIN KANE: Wednesday, we had them show up 

21 late Wednesday and we put them in a room upstairs by 
32

1 themselves where they could operate out of, and we put 

2 the morale room across the hall, so they've used it for 

3 religious services and also for them to have people --

4 in some cases, just to let them stress down, to 

5 relieve, cool down, so to speak, chill. 

6 That was all they needed was a little respite. 

7 Others are going to be facing some long term stuff, 

8 because in many cases, the people facing problems were 

9 people who came to us with problems to begin with, 

10 there's a divorce at home, there's family problems at 

11 home, they have job problems, whatever that was. Now 

12 we have the icing on the cake. 

13 This situation was a stressful situation. 

14 They're not at home, the kids are at home and they're 

15 not being taken care of. They're living in an 

16 environment that's foreign to them.

17 In some cases, this may be their first time in 

18 a situation like this.

19 MAJ MELNYK: Chaplain Holder, did you have 

20 something to add?

21 CHAPLAIN HOLDER: There's also a backup two 
33

1 team CISM program established at --

2 MAJ MELNYK: CISM is, again?

3 CHAPLAIN HOLDER: Critical incident stress 

4 management.

5 MAJ MELNYK: Thank you.

6 CHAPLAIN HOLDER: That's been established at 

7 Camp Smith for backup for the personnel coming back 

8 through and with the new plan that's going on, the 

9 people coming to the city and coming back and there 

10 will be a staging point.

11 So they have a backup facility of 15 to 30 bed 

12 patient for that there to be activated, if needed.

13 MAJ MELNYK: If needed and so far --

14 CHAPLAIN HOLDER: So far, it has not been 

15 needed. We just set it up this week. 

16 MAJ MELNYK: It seems from the descriptions 

17 I've gotten from you gentlemen that you went out there 

18 and you knew your mission and you provided it without 

19 needing to be requested.

20 Have services also been requested directly of 

21 you? At what level have those requests come down? 
34

1 What services have they asked you to --

2 CHAPLAIN KANE: Like religious services, 

3 counseling services? 

4 MAJ MELNYK: Both, actually.

5 CHAPLAIN KANE: Well, we set up a schedule on 

6 the weekend to go to the armories where the guys are 

7 doing turnarounds and even at near the site, like 

8 Battery Park, in the immediate -- once the area cleared 

9 enough that we could do that sort of thing.

10 We have had a number of religious services. 

11 In fact, Chaplain Goldstein held Rosh Hashana services, 

12 blowing the shofar and everything, right on the site on 

13 Tuesday of this week, which was Rosh Hashana. 

14 MAJ MELNYK: Correct. 

15 CHAPLAIN KANE: I've said mass in three 

16 different armories and several sites and, also, Battery 

17 Park and Father Taylor [chaplain for the 1-69 Infantry] 

18 has done the same. Some of the other chaplains have 

19 done Protestant services.

20 We've met the needs and, of course, because of 

21 the law, we can't openly invite non-military personnel, 
35

1 but if they are there, nobody is going to stop them.

2 And at each of the sites, I've had police or 

3 firemen or emergency workers or ironworkers or other 

4 union men come in. 

5 We've had a great support at the site for the 

6 union, the construction trade unions who have gone out 

7 there, many cases, without legitimate insurance 

8 protection, whatnot.

9 We've also had all of the volunteers 

10 (inaudible – for the City of New York?) come through 

11 our office and we've associated them, we've recorded 

12 them and sent them out to various sites.

13 MAJ MELNYK: Through your office.

CHAPLAIN KANE: Through the office of the 107th 14

15 Support Group, which, at that point, was the -- it was 

16 Chaplain Bryer was the task force chaplain and I 

17 assisted him. We've gone out of rank and we didn't 

18 worry about ranks, chaplains, if they're getting the 

19 job done, don't get involved in that. We just do what 

20 has to be done. 

21 But we ran the thing 24 hours a day and 
36

1 volunteers coming in from Pennsylvania, from 

2 California.

3 In some cases, we have to turn away people, 

4 especially military personnel who were not on orders. 

5 We brought them back as civilian volunteers. 

6 MAJ MELNYK: How does this compare, any of you 

7 could jump in here, with previous efforts that you have 

8 been called on for counseling? 

9 With the scale of this, how has that changed 

10 things? Chaplain Bazer.

11 CHAPLAIN BAZER: My only experience was, 

12 approximately two years ago, there was a helicopter 

13 crash of a UH-1 on a very foggy night right before 

14 Thanksgiving and made the news, I came in and did sort 

15 of on-site counseling, chaplainal presence, and even up 

16 until -- today, I'm still working with one or two of 

17 the families, just in very, very small scale.

18 I have not been part of any sort of activation 

19 for natural disasters or things like that.

20 So this is my first time involved and I only 

21 see it just getting more involved and more detailed.
37

1 One example is I've been fortunate, both 

2 through the FBI and through the Army, to get a lot of 

3 sort of stress, critical incident stress training. I 

4 just attended this summer the advanced suicide 

5 prevention training out in Topeka, Kansas, which, as 

6 the chief of chaplains, buy seats for at the Meninger 

7 Clinic, and I went as one of the National Guard - the 

8 National Guard has its own seats. So all that training 

9 is really coming back to me, knowing what I'll be 

10 seeing down the road from that, to put into place. 

11 What's fortunate is taking that knowledge, not 

12 just here, but I know some of my own congregants 

13 witnessed the crash of the towers and the plane into 

14 the towers. So I'm going to be holding essentially a 

15 critical incident stress debriefing session for my own 

16 congregants, something that I know that I can sort of 

17 keep in touch with them and provide for them.

18 And for me, that's -- I feel very fortunate 

19 doing that.

20 Just one thing to add. I was actually home

21 for my high holy days, in the congregation, and when I 
38

1 first commented that I was all set for this whole 

2 tragedy happened, I was ready to start working on some 

3 sermons, I got up before them and said I have no 

4 sermons for you.

5 What I then did is just talked about, really 

6 from the heart, of what I saw and my own thoughts. I 

7 think for myself, I'm still having -- I'm not there 

8 yet. I'm still just with images putting this whole 

9 thing together.

10 One of the things I was very -- that I stated 

11 to my congregation, who some of them may struggle with 

12 the fact that I'm a National Guardsman, they don't like 

13 the fact that someone else “owns me,” quote-unquote, 

14 that I said to them I'm proud to be your rabbi, I'm 

15 proud to wear the uniform of an Army officer, and as a 

16 chaplain.

17 And it was very important that I said that and 

18 the reaction from my congregation was just really 

19 overwhelming. Many of them came over to me and said, 

20 you know, "we're so proud of you." 

21 And a quick story. I was gassing up my car to 
39

1 come back into the armory. It must have been about 

2 6:30 in the morning, seven, I can't remember, and 

3 someone just saw me in uniform and just gave me a 

4 thumbs up. That felt good. 

5 MAJ MELNYK: Many soldiers have told similar 

6 stories about the approval they've gotten from the 

7 people in New York.

8 CHAPLAIN KANE: Quite a change from what Pat 

9 Holder and myself, both Vietnam Veterans - we were not 

10 chaplains at the time. I believe you were a chaplain’s 

11 assistant?

12 CHAPLAIN HOLDER: I was chaplain assistant.

13 CHAPLAIN KANE: ... and I was an infantryman in 

14 Vietnam. Coming back to the states and the negative 

15 attitude, and neither of us got called up for Desert 

16 Storm except stateside ...

17 CHAPLAIN HOLDER: ...I went to Desert Storm.

18 CHAPLAIN KANE: Oh, you did go to Desert Storm 

19 – my mistake.

20 CHAPLAIN HOLDER: Five months.

21 CHAPLAIN KANE: I was not called up, except 
40

1 here, because the National Guard combat divisions were 

2 not called up, much to our annoyance. That's a sore 

3 point with us. But people did -- there was some 

4 welcome back, but that kind of died off.

5 But here, there were people cheering in the 

6 streets when we drive by, tremendous support and 

7 tremendous background. 

8 We had to turn away truckloads of water and 

9 food and candy and soda and everything that they were 

10 trying to force on us and send it to other places. We 

11 were sending it to our City Harvest for the poor and 

12 other places. 

13 It was just an overabundance. Now, the second 

14 week, it's almost all gone up. Very interesting. The 

15 immediate emotional reactions. There are still people 

16 donating stuff, but it's dried up, the support out 

17 there.

18 So it's quite interesting. People are in 

19 desperation to return to normal and pretty soon we'll 

20 become an annoyance and I think the civil authorities 

21 are going to be looking towards moving us more and more 
41

1 into the background, which we should be.

2 They want to return to normal and bring the 

3 civil authorities back. 

4 MAJ MELNYK: I wanted to ask. The services 

5 you are providing, is it just a change in this tragedy, 

6 a change in scale or is it actual change in the types 

7 of services that you've provided before?

8 Chaplain Bazer, you said you had one small 

9 incident before. I assume you other two chaplains had 

10 more experience.

11 CHAPLAIN Kane: We did a little bit with --

12 you were not here for Flight 800. I was on an annual 

13 training at the time, but eventually got into the last 

14 half of it, also counseling people. 

15 MAJ MELNYK: This is when TWA Flight 800 went 

16 down.

17 CHAPLAIN Kane: We brought chaplains in to 

18 respond. The Navy did not have a chaplain on the Grasp 

19 or the Grapple, but we sent one of our retired 

20 chaplains, we put him back in uniform and sent him out 

21 there for Catholic mass on August 15th of that year, 
42

1 the Feast of the Assumption, well, when they saw a 

2 brevet brigadier general show up on board, believe me, 

3 the Navy said, okay, well, at least get a lieutenant 

4 commander out there.

5 The same thing with our National Guardsmen 

6 started to really feel the pressure when they were 

7 taking the material out to the Aviation Brigade and the 

8 flight facility and then later, to a big, big aircraft 

9 hangar to -- what they literally did was rebuild the 

10 plane.

11 And the FBI personnel and the other personnel 

12 out there began to get the shock of it. It took a 

13 while for them to begin to deal with it, and some of 

14 them I think still have bad memories of that, too.

15 MAJ MELNYK: So there is a parallel there 

16 between Flight 800 and what you saw here.

17 CHAPLAIN Kane: To some. But that was 

18 offshore, it was brought in. It was kind of like you 

19 could remove yourself, you could -- but here, the whole 

20 city is in shock. You can go parts of the city and 

21 look around, gee, it doesn't feel like it happened. 
43

1 But you go to other parts of the city, yes, this has 

2 come home to us, you go back to the parish, it's coming 

3 home to you.

4 And we have Guardsmen who have not shown up. 

5 We know they were in the building. They never reported 

6 for duty. They never came home. We know that they 

7 have died. We lost a chaplain assistant who never came 

8 back. He was working in his civilian job and we know 

9 he never reported in, things of this nature.

10 MAJ MELNYK: Are there things you've done for 

11 this incident that you've never had to do before as a 

12 chaplain?

13 CHAPLAIN HOLDER: Not so far. I've found the 

14 level of fear with those coming down, who stopped at 

15 Camp Smith, was very similar to the level of fear of 

16 those going to Saudi Arabia. 

17 The difference was the level of fear was 

18 expressed “this is my home,” whereas there they were 

19 expressing this is war, and there's a different 

20 understanding there and the intensity is actually, I 

21 think, a little greater with those that were coming 
44

1 down here, just not expecting it in their own home 

2 land.

3 CHAPLAIN KANE: There's a sense of frustration 

4 of the soldiers wanting to be able to do something to 

5 get the guys who did it and how can you explain it to 

6 them that vengeance is not the thing we're looking for, 

7 justice is.

8 MAJ MELNYK: I've wanted to tackle that 

9 subject. How do you deal with the anger and the desire 

10 for revenge?

11 CHAPLAIN KANE: Part of my homily was -- I 

12 used an old Arab saying, which I thought might be 

13 appropriate, and I may be not quoting it correctly, but 

14 it's close enough, that the man who sets out on a 

15 journey of revenge best first stop and dig two graves, 

16 one for himself and the other, because hate is 

17 ultimately destructive. It doesn't hurt the guy who 

18 you're going after. It only hurts you and it is 

19 morally and personally and physically and a lot of 

20 other ways destructive of you and those around you. 

21 To get rid of it, it's not productive. Look 
45

1 for justice, look to bring those to justice, look to 

2 make sure that this cannot happen again, and aid those 

3 in need. 

4 But to go around with a hatred or I want to 

5 nuke this guy or I want to do this, that's bravado, but 

6 ultimately it's just not going to accomplish anything.

7 MAJ MELNYK: Chaplain Bazer.

8 CHAPLAIN BAZER: I was providing an interfaith 

9 worship service at my armory because in my armory is 

10 the 206th Corps Support Battalion, which is a large 

11 infrastructure.

12 MAJ MELNYK: The 206th, you said.

13 CHAPLAIN BAZER: The 206th. There's also the 

14 105th MPs, one or two other units, aside from the 

15 642nd.

16 And the other units did not have chaplains, so 

17 someone from the 206th, a captain, came over and asked 

18 me to do a service and I said I can do an interfaith 

19 service. 

20 So in my homily, I spoke -- quoted from the 

21 Book of Deuteronomy in sort of two different passages, 
46

1 and one of them is a passage which states, "Justice, 

2 justice shall you pursue, that you may live and thrive 

3 in your land."

4 And I talked about as much as we want, it 

5 would have been very easy for me to quote scripture 

6 that talked about vengeance, and as much at times I 

7 have feelings like that, we all have feelings like 

8 that, that is not what this is about, what our mission 

9 is about.

10 And I said it's about justice, from the law 

11 enforcement to our role in the military, and I said my 

12 prayer is that we will find right now the accomplices, 

13 trace it back to where it needs to be, to prove the 

14 case of justice. That's what we stand for.

15 And then from there, once -- and I really 

16 believe this and seeing the FBI at work, they 

17 absolutely want to make sure that it's done within the 

18 proper judicial system, because that's what we stand 

19 for, so that no one can say -- and I think this is the 

20 key -- that we would ever lower ourselves to what the 

21 animals that did this heinous crime.
47

1 So I spoke to the troops and I said by looking 

2 at justice, then we can -- then it can be handed to the 

3 military to do their proper action.

4 And that's what it is to be American and to 

5 stand for these values that we hold so true, and some 

6 of the -- many of the soldiers said to me afterwards, 

7 says, "You know, that helped in looking at it, that it 

8 isn't -- as much as we may want vengeance, we're 

9 Americans and we stand for something and let us be the 

10 light unto the nations.”

11 MAJ MELNYK: At this point, I want to pause 

12 and flip the tape.

13 (Tape change.)

14 MAJ MELNYK: Chaplain Holder, I wanted to now 

15 give you a chance to comment on that, about how have 

16 you approached the anger and the desire for revenge, 

17 but specifically, as a Christian chaplain, can you 

18 counsel forgiveness? How do you deal with that aspect 

19 of Christian theology and desire here for justice and 

20 revenge?

21 CHAPLAIN HOLDER: The soldiers I've talked to, 
48

1 ironically, have not come across as strong with the 

2 desire as some of the people of my church. I started 

3 with the soldiers, and we talked about the element of 

4 forgiveness and all, but we ended up on the subject of 

5 basically encouraging one another to come through it, 

6 to find strength in the support of their fellow 

7 laborers, the fellow comrades that they were working 

8 with, rather than looking at the battle or the enemy, 

9 but just helping each other get through it.

10 And that's where we went with it after we had 

11 talked and after two or three services that we had, 

12 that's where we came down to. 

13 We didn't really get off on the vengeance side 

14 of it. That was an individual thing and I talked to 

15 individual soldiers and we talked through it, to where 

16 they understand the biblical concept of forgiveness and 

17 moving on.

18 And this Sunday, I'm hoping to go back to my 

19 church, because I haven't been able to talk to them 

20 since this started, and talk with them on the idea of 

21 moving on and letting God’s love be seen and moving on 
49

1 that way. 

2 CHAPLAIN KANE: Letting go, very much so. 

3 CHAPLAIN HOLDER: As I'm saying, I've been 

4 around the military so many years, since 1966, that my 

5 goal was to take them completely away from any idea of 

6 vengeance or retaliation, but to bring them to 

7 something that would lift them up and help them to 

8 encourage their neighbor, as well as themselves, and 

9 that's why I went into the idea of encouragement rather 

10 than vengeance or retribution or anything like that.

11 MAJ MELNYK: But the goal then is to be 

12 uplifting and not --

13 CHAPLAIN HOLDER: Very much so.

14 MAJ MELNYK: And not focus on the negative.

15 CHAPLAIN HOLDER: On the negative, no. To 

16 find a positive. 

17 CHAPLAIN KANE: I had the incidence of 

18 mentoring a chaplain whose battalion commander and 

19 sergeant major came to me, he said "This guy is having 

20 a few problems, going around being a little bit too 

21 present, you know, he's getting in their hair, but he's 
50

1 also making statements like this is because men and 

2 women have turned away from God in this country and 

3 abortion," and this, that and the other thing.

4 And I had to tell him, I said "This may be 

5 your own theological world view of your particular 

6 denomination, but this is not what you're here about. 

7 This is borderline, if not actual proselytization, 

8 selling your religion. This is out of the way. By the 

9 way, if the good Lord wants to announce this, He will 

10 in a much bigger way than you can, as the day of doom 

11 or the end of the world."

12 And I told him, "You have to be uplifting, you 

13 have to be positive, you have to be maybe a bit of a 

14 joker, humorous, get people's minds off it, put their 

15 minds in another direction, don't let them dwell on 

16 this, because that's destructive."

17 Belly button mesmerizing thoughts, outlook, 

18 outlook, outlook, not in look. 

19 We can be retrospective later and there will 

20 be times to do this, but we have to be a lot more 

21 caring of each other rather than thinking about the 
51

1 terrible things. We have to be caring about what we 

2 can look toward, as our Jewish friends say, “L’ chaim,” 

3 “to life,” at this point. The good Lord is here with 

4 us.

5 As a Catholic priest, you know, I have my 

6 beliefs about Jesus Christ, the resurrection, the end 

7 of the world, everything else, but we're not projecting 

8 those now.

9 Right now, we're trying to get people through 

10 this. If they ask you for particular denominational 

11 help, we'll provide it, and that's there on a one on 

12 one or in a group at celebration of mass, in my case, 

13 or Protestant services and whatever is necessary. 

14 But it was bound to happen, that people would, 

15 and, also, chaplains are human beings, too, and they're 

16 affected by this and they are shocked by this, and are 

17 they going to have a reaction? Certainly. We have to 

18 be careful of that and minister to each other as 

19 chaplains, too.

20 MAJ MELNYK: I wanted to actually get to that 

21 point, finally. I wanted to get onto that topic. I 
52

1 wanted you to -- you have expressed it in a number of 

2 ways, but have your feelings changed since the initial 

3 impact of the incident? Your personal feelings.

4 You've dealt with it now for a week. Do you 

5 still feel the same way about what you've witnessed and 

6 the way your soldiers have dealt with it or has that 

7 feeling changed now that a week has gone by? 

8 CHAPLAIN KANE: Personal feelings I don't 

9 think have changed, because I kind of knew what to 

10 expect. I've dealt with damage of emergencies, I've 

11 been a part-time police chaplain and things of this 

12 nature, not just in the military.

13 Having gone through combat as an infantryman, 

14 I've seen people torn apart and body parts, I was in 

15 the Tet Offensive and things of that nature.

16 Not in that sense. My principal thing is to 

17 keep an outlook and a monitoring attitude. Where are 

18 the troops going? What level is their morale? It 

19 varies from unit to unit, from individual to 

20 individual, you know.

21 We have some Vietnam Veterans, Desert Storm 
53

1 Veterans. People who have seen some bad things. We've 

2 had state emergencies where people have seen some bad 

3 things, too. 

4 And they're dealing with it a lot better and 

5 they have been a help to the others, you know, “this 

6 will pass.” “We will survive.” “We will get through 

7 this,” and that's helped a lot soldiers. 

8 I think that's one of the reasons we haven't 

9 had more trauma incidents, whereas if you said, take a 

10 unit that was totally brand new, like a draftee unit 

11 right in to the field, like happened in Vietnam, and 

12 they're going to get traumatized right away without 

13 some older hands there.

14 Well, in the National Guard, we have a lot of 

15 older hands. They're there. They're experienced. 

16 They've been around for many, many years. Even if they 

17 had not been in Vietnam and whatnot, you've got 

18 sergeants and E-7s, sergeants first class, and master 

19 sergeants, and sergeants major that have a background 

20 there, who have been at --

21 We have a lot of people who are also, in 
54

1 civilian life, in emergency services, volunteer 

2 firemen, cops, and other things, that it's not unusual 

3 for them to have this background.

4 Pat, did you want to say something?

5 CHAPLAIN HOLDER: Chaplain Holder. I'll go 

6 along pretty much with what Chaplain Kane is saying. I 

7 also was a chaplain with the fire department for 

8 several years.

9 For me, the only thing really is I still have 

10 a sadness in my heart that comes to the surface every 

11 now and then, but the soldiers, I agree, they're doing, 

12 I think, quite well and I've seen a lot of those with 

13 the past experience be the encouragers. 

14 MAJ MELNYK: Something of a Veteran status for 

15 these guys. 

16 CHAPLAIN KANE: It helps. It helps 

17 tremendously. And I think, also, the thing that's a 

18 realization, a kind of unrecognized strength of 

19 Americans. 

20 We have a tradition and history of we live by 

21 law, we're a country of laws. People break the law. 
55

1 Although we may have our failings, we may not be 

2 perfect at it at all times, but we have a tradition.

3 These people will be brought to justice. 

4 We're not a group of vigilantes. And I haven't heard 

5 -- we ought to do things like this. 

6 CHAPLAIN HOLDER: (Inaudible) might be.

7 CHAPLAIN KANE: Well, we may have one with 

8 that name, but he's not one. The thing is that none of 

9 these people I've heard, you know, they joke when you 

10 say, yeah, we ought to nuke them or things like that, 

11 and some people are a little hot under the collar, but 

12 it's more civilians than military that I've heard this 

13 from.

14 We've had a lot more cool hands and cool minds 

15 as regards to the idea of go and get these guys. We're 

16 going to do it, we're going to do it the right way, 

17 we're going to do it the proper way, and that's been 

18 the procedure.

19 Nobody has been running off like a loose 

20 cannon, give me my .50 cal, I want to go to Afghanistan 

21 or something like that. 
56

1 I haven't heard anything like that, thank God.

2 MAJ MELNYK: I wanted to ask one more 

3 question, sort of going back. We skipped over this 

4 earlier, before I get your final feelings.

5 I wanted to talk about something, Chaplain 

6 Kane, you had already brought up, your interactions 

7 with firefighters, police department and construction 

8 workers.

9 Have you done a lot of ministering to those 

10 outside the military? How have you dealt with that and 

11 how well are those civil services covered by ministers 

12 of their own?

13 CHAPLAIN KANE: Well, the New York City Fire 

14 Department and the New York City Police Department are 

15 in the tens of thousands of personnel.

16 New York City Fire Department is about 40,000 

17 people, it's almost equivalent to an Army corps. They 

18 have about 20 chaplains of various faiths, including 

19 three Catholic priests, three rabbis, a large Jewish 

20 population exists in the New York City environment 

21 area, and about a good 25 Protestant ministers, there's 
57

1 about 12 Imams who are full-time or part-time with the 

2 department.

3 So they are very, very good at answering their 

4 own needs, but we have had interaction and there has 

5 been no problem of being the lack of respect.

6 I've had firemen that said we need a priest 

7 over here or we need a rabbi over here, we were there. 

8 I was with Chaplain Joe Patastic (phonetic) of the New 

9 York City Fire Department, who I've known for many 

10 years, who is a rabbi. We both worked side by side at 

11 the site, talking to people, how are you doing, are you 

12 okay, maybe somebody out to see this guy, pull him out 

13 of the line.

14 And if I say pull them out of the line, then 

15 there wasn't any argument from the fire chief or the 

16 police supervisor there, you pull them. Or the 

17 ironworker, you ought to go in, and they followed us. 

18 They saw the cross, they saw the chaplain sign on 

19 Chaplain Patastic, his fire uniform, just pull him, no 

20 argument.

21 Everybody was working together and pulling 
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1 together, and the sense that we are all Americans in 

2 this together was very, very strong, very strong, right 

3 from the day one, from the moment. 

4 There was no question about who is in charge. 

5 Later on, some of the city agencies were having their 

6 problems dealing with who is going to run this, who is 

7 going to run that, the federal agencies.

8 The military side, we were organized, we've 

9 got our chain of command, and in the Guard, we all know 

10 each other, many cases, socially in civilian life, too. 

11 We all come from the old home town in many cases.

12 There's not that problem. We all know what 

13 has to be done. We know how each other thinks.

14 I walk into a unit, they know me for years. 

15 Even though I'm not their battalion chaplain anymore, 

16 they've known me from various times I've been there.

17 If I said something, it's like the general 

18 said it, there's not a problem, “get him out of here” 

19 or “get this man treatment” or “these people need 

20 something now” and the commander says "Yes, sir, we'll 

21 get it for him," because they know it.
59

1 That is one of our strengths at this time. 

2 The Guard has always had that kind of a strength, too.

3 MAJ MELNYK: What about civilian onlookers? 

4 CHAPLAIN KANE: We've had all kinds of strange 

5 people coming into the area. We've had a few people, 

6 civilians that we found alive, it would usually be a 

7 medical condition. But maybe if I could identify it 

8 was a Catholic, anoint them or something, but they'd be 

9 taken right to the hospital, where there are civilian 

10 hospital chaplains awaiting for them there.

11 Interaction with other types of civilians, 

12 other than the fire departments --

13 MAJ MELNYK: People who live in the area.

14 CHAPLAIN KANE: -- and whatnot. Some have 

15 been extricated from Battery Park City across the 

16 street. They were gotten out. Those who couldn’t –

17 were extracted by other means, by ambulance or whatnot, 

18 but we haven’t had too much contact with them.

19 The problem we've had with the civilians are 

20 the wannabe's, the phoney militaries driving in. We 

21 had CNN reporters dressed in camouflage, with cameras 
60

1 underneath the uniforms.

2 They were not just stopped. They were 

3 arrested. We've had soldiers who have had to deal with 

4 the problem not of what happened there, but the fifth 

5 column type of thing. There are terrorists or people 

6 are taking advantage of the situation, such as people -

7 - there are two Verizon phone trucks that were stolen, 

8 a mail truck was stolen, and the guards chased the guy 

9 away.

10 It had been hot-wired and left there. We 

11 figured he was a crook trying to use a mail truck to 

12 steal stuff and transport it, you know, people take 

13 advantage of the situation.

14 We've had pickpockets come down here, crooks, 

15 these are criminals. The bad side of society shows up, 

16 the rats come up out of the ground, so to speak, and 

17 attack.

18 We've also had people who are ghouls, “Could I 

19 come down and see this, I just wanted to drop a -- can 

20 I take a souvenir home, a piece of rock?”

21 It's a crime scene, okay, and the FBI and the 
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1 police, city police said nobody takes anything out of 

2 this area except official personnel, designated 

3 personnel.

4 Guardsmen have had to deal with that, too. 

5 All right. And helping people, can I get to my 

6 apartment, you know, how do I get to it, through to it, 

7 things of this nature, because they had to cross over 

8 through ground zero area to Battery Park City, which is 

9 on the other side, which is on landfill on the other 

10 side of the World Trade Center.

11 MAJ MELNYK: So you really haven't had to 

12 minister to people, civilians.

13 CHAPLAIN KANE: A few people we've talked to, 

14 but in passing, and then we could hand them on. But 

15 most of these people were in need of just directions of 

16 being passed on.

17 I haven't experienced -- and maybe some of the 

18 other chaplains have, but not too much. It's more a 

19 case of they've seen us and they've been reassured 

20 we're there. 

21 The big surprise, that surprised all the local 
62

1 law enforcement and fire departments, was how quickly 

2 we were there. Some of us were on the ground within 

3 two hours, three hours of this taking place.

4 MAJ MELNYK: From people I've talked to, you 

5 were actually one of the very first people on the 

6 ground yourself, Father Kane. 

7 CHAPLAIN Holder: Basically, a lot of what 

8 Chaplain Kane is saying, I found, coming in, as sort of 

9 an outsider, because I'm not a New York City person and 

10 I'm coming from about 300 miles away, but access to go 

11 in to see anyone, if I'm talking to someone, they'd 

12 leave me alone, they wouldn't bother the person, and 

13 access.

14 I went up to the morgue and talked to the 

15 EMTs, they let me come in and talk to them. Down at 

16 the fire department, talked to the fire department 

17 people, the police department, no problem at all. I 

18 was a chaplain, period, that was it. `

19 CHAPLAIN KANE: They’re generally happy to see 

20 you.

21 MAJ MELNYK: Any last thoughts, something you 
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1 want on --

2 CHAPLAIN KANE: We will survive this. We'll 

3 get through this, not only as a city, but as a state 

4 and a nation. We'll be stronger for it. God is good 

5 and He is with us, and the good Lord will bless us 

6 because we have not done anything wrong.

7 We are the good people who have been attacked 

8 here. We have supported and done a lot of wonderful 

9 things in the world, and still people dislike us.

10 People forget that we are the only nation in 

11 history ever to take our enemy's countries and rebuild 

12 them for them. Germany and Japan after World War II. 

13 We've done this. We're even helping Vietnam now. 

14 We're the only kind of country that while we 

15 have no official religion, we're still doing Christian 

16 things. 

17 That's pretty much what I've got to say, that 

18 I'm constantly in prayer and we've led a lot of 

19 impromptu prayer sessions, occasionally meeting some 

20 civilians, could I have a prayer.

21 Also, when I go back, a couple of times I've 
64

1 been able to go back to my parish, because my pastor is 

2 quite elderly and I had to do the food shopping for the 

3 rectory and whatnot, and people have stopped me, could 

4 we have a prayer, and I said certainly, are you 

5 Catholic, says, “no,” but they just want a prayer.

6 They see the uniform, just like they would see 

7 my clerical collar in civilian life, people would stop 

8 and were doing that.

9 One policeman came over, who is from the 

10 neighborhood out there, in the precinct, he's not 

11 directly involved in the site and whatnot, he said, 

12 "You know, Chaplain, be careful out there, we need you 

13 back in Canarsie," that sort of thing, which is 

14 encouraging. It's good.

15 I think if anything is going to come out of 

16 this, there is going to be extra positive, besides 

17 being strong, there's a better relationship between the 

18 National Guard, and the community, police, fire, and 

19 our government, a lot of our liberal legislators who 

20 were like quasi- a little flaky on the military, not 

21 too happy with them, I think have gotten a much more 
65

1 positive view of the National Guard and the military as 

2 a whole out of this, too. 

3 MAJ MELNYK: Chaplain Holder.

4 CHAPLAIN HOLDER: Short and to the point, I 

5 agree.

6 MAJ MELNYK: Thank you very much, both of you, 

7 and the gentlemen who had to leave earlier.

8 (The interview was concluded.)

9 * * * * *