1 IN THE UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT

2 FOR THE SOUTHERN DISTRICT OF OHIO

3 EASTERN DIVISION

4 ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

5 STACIE RAY, BASIL ARGENTO, JANE DOE,

6 AND ASHLEY BREDA,

7 Plaintiffs,

8

9 vs. Civil Action No.

10 2:18-CV-00272-MHW-CMV

11 AMY ACTON, IN HER OFFICIAL CAPACITY

12 AS DIRECTOR OF THE OHIO DEPARTMENT

13 OF HEALTH, et al.,

14

15 Defendants.

16 ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

17 Deposition of

18 ASHLEY BREDA

19

 August 21, 2019

20 12:00 p.m.

21 Taken at:

 Calfee Halter & Griswold, LLP

22 41 South High Street, Suite 1200

 Columbus, Ohio

23

24 Kimberly A. Kaz, RPR, Notary Public

25

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1 APPEARANCES:

2

3 On behalf of the Plaintiffs:

4 Lambda Legal, by

5 KARA N. INGELHART, ESQ.

6 (via videoconference)

7 105 West Adams Street, Suite 2600

8 Chicago, Illinois 60603

9 (312) 663-4413

10 kingelhart@lambdalegal.org

11

12 On behalf of the Defendants:

13 Calfee Halter & Griswold, LLP, by

14 JAKE BLAKE, ESQ.

15 41 South High Street, Suite 1200

16 Columbus, Ohio 43215

17 (614) 621-7789

18 jblake@calfee.com

19 ~ ~ ~ ~ ~

20

21 Also present:

22 Rachel Belenker, Esq.

23

24

25

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1 TRANSCRIPT INDEX

2

3 APPEARANCES............................... 2

4

5 INDEX OF EXHIBITS ........................ 4

6

7 EXAMINATION OF ASHLEY BREDA

8 By Mr. Blake.............................. 5

9

10 REPORTER'S CERTIFICATE.................... 122

11

12 EXHIBIT CUSTODY

13 EXHIBITS RETAINED BY COURT REPORTER

14

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1 INDEX OF EXHIBITS

2 NUMBER DESCRIPTION MARKED

3 Exhibit 7 Birth Certificate............. 78

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1 ASHLEY BREDA, of lawful age, called

2 for examination, as provided by the Federal

3 Rules of Civil Procedure, being by me first

4 duly sworn, as hereinafter certified, deposed

5 and said as follows:

6 EXAMINATION OF ASHLEY BREDA

7 BY MR. BLAKE:

8 Q. Could you please state and spell

9 your name for the record?

10 A. My name is Ashley Breda,

11 A-s-h-l-e-y B-r-e-d-a.

12 Q. Okay. And you're here to testify

13 as -- as the plaintiff or one of the plaintiffs

14 in the case by you, among others, against the

15 Ohio Department of Health, among others; is

16 that right?

17 A. I do apologize. Can you repeat

18 that again? You cut out.

19 Q. Yes. You're one of the plaintiffs

20 in a case against the Ohio Department of

21 Health, among others, correct?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. And you're here to testify in a

24 deposition in that case, right?

25 A. Yes.

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1 Q. Okay. And as we've already

2 experienced, you're by video and we're by

3 video, and so sometimes the audio is a little

4 challenging, so if we could all take extra care

5 to speak clearly and slowly, I think that will

6 help the court reporter. Is that okay with

7 you?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. And I suspect that from time to

10 time, the court reporter is going to interrupt

11 and indicate to either you or me that she did

12 not get the -- the last statement clearly, and

13 so we may have to backtrack to some respect.

14 A. Understood.

15 Q. Okay. Ms. Breda, is this your

16 first deposition that you've ever sat for?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. Never testified in any sort of case

19 either as a party or a witness or anything like

20 that?

21 A. No.

22 Q. All right. So just to lay some

23 very basic ground rules, seeing as how this --

24 this might be a first-time experience for you.

25 As you know, there's a court reporter. That

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1 court reporter is copying everything

2 stenographically, and in order for her to do

3 that, only one of us can talk at a time. Do

4 you understand?

5 A. Yes, I do.

6 Q. All right. And I'll try to make an

7 effort not to speak over you as well, and I'm

8 sure we'll both, at various points throughout

9 the day, foul that up.

10 The other thing that's important is

11 that all of our answers, all of your answers in

12 particular are auditory. The court reporter's

13 very good, but she can't type down a nod or

14 shake of the head, and even some, like,

15 utterances like "um," "uh-huh" are ambiguous

16 when she types them. So if we could answer

17 questions, you know, with -- orally and to the

18 extent needed, you know, with "yes" or "no" and

19 things like that. Does that make sense?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. Look at that. You're already --

22 you've already got it. All right. Hold on.

23 We're going to take a brief pause since my IT

24 person is poking their head in, so wait one

25 second and we'll go off the record.

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1 (Discussion held off the record.)

2 Q. Okay. The other, I think,

3 important rule is that if you ever need to take

4 a break or stop, go to the restroom, just step

5 out of the room for whatever reason, it's your

6 deposition, you can ask for a break. And so

7 long as a question is not pending, you know,

8 I'll -- everyone will agree and then the

9 deposition will just pause and you'll go do

10 whatever it is you think you need to do and

11 then we'll come back and continue the

12 deposition. Do you understand that?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. Okay. Other than that, you know,

15 if anything else comes up, we'll just sort of

16 fix it as we go, but those are kind of the main

17 pieces that trip people up for the first time.

18 So with that, we can turn into some of the more

19 substantive matters. Is that all right with

20 you?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. Okay. So the first thing I'd like

23 to do is just lay the ground work for some

24 terminology that I want to use during the

25 deposition. The first term is "ODH," and

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1 that's an acronym for Ohio Department of

2 Health. That is one of the defendants in this

3 case, but I'm going to just generically refer

4 to all the defendants as the Department of

5 Health or the Ohio Department of Health or ODH,

6 if that's okay with you.

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Okay. I also am going to use the

9 term "transgender" or "transgendered" or

10 "transgenderism" collectively. You will

11 understand those or we can agree that those

12 refer to someone whose gender identity does not

13 align with his or her birth or biological sex.

14 Do you understand that?

15 MS. INGELHART: Objection. Calls

16 for expert testimony. These terms of art are

17 at issue in the case. You can answer.

18 Q. Yeah, but you understand that I'm

19 using -- when I use the word "transgender,"

20 that's what I'm referring to?

21 MS. INGELHART: Same objection.

22 Standing objection to terms of art, but you can

23 answer.

24 THE WITNESS: Okay.

25 MR. BLAKE: And your standing

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1 objection is noted. So I understand there's a

2 dispute in this litigation regarding the terms

3 "gender" and "sex" and those sorts of things.

4 MS. INGELHART: Thanks, Jake.

5 Q. Similarly, "cisgendered," sort of

6 the reverse of the last term, someone who whose

7 gender identity aligns with their birth or

8 biological sex. If I happen to use that term,

9 you'll understand that's what I mean. Is that

10 okay?

11 MS. INGELHART: And I just want to

12 clearly object for the record, not to belabor

13 the point, but the objection is to the fact

14 that these kind of terms and qualifications

15 call for expert testimony and it's not just the

16 word "cisgender" that you're requesting

17 clarification on, it's the word "sex,"

18 "gender," "biological sex," et cetera, that are

19 at issue. Thank you.

20 MR. BLAKE: Understood.

21 Q. Can you answer the question?

22 A. Okay.

23 Q. All right. Yeah. Okay. Let's

24 talk a little bit about your background. What

25 is your address?

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1 

2 t , 

3 Q. And what is your highest level of

4 education?

5 A. I have a Bachelor's degree.

6 Q. What did you obtain your Bachelor's

7 degree in?

8 A. Criminal justice.

9 Q. When did you obtain your Bachelor's

10 degree in criminal justice?

11 A. I'm sorry. Do you mean when did I

12 graduate or when did I start?

13 Q. When did you obtain the degree?

14 When did you graduate?

15 A. I graduated, I believe, in 2013.

16 Q. 2013?

17 A. No, '14.

18 Q. '14. And was that a four-year

19 degree?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. And where did you -- what

22 institution did you obtain the degree from?

23 A. Youngstown State University.

24 Q. Is that where you're from, that

25 area, Youngstown area?

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1 A. Yes.

2 Q. And how old are you?

3 A. Twenty-nine.

4 Q. When you graduated Youngstown, did

5 you -- did you work anywhere immediately

6 following your graduation?

7 A. Yes, I did.

8 Q. Where did you work?

9 A. After my graduation, I worked at

10 Mahoning Valley Race Course as a security

11 officer.

12 Q. I think you said the Mahoning

13 Valley --

14 A. I'm not sure what it's called now,

15 but it's the Mahoning Valley Race Course,

16 C-o-u-r-s-e.

17 Q. Oh, race course. Mahoning Valley

18 Race Course, okay, as a security guard?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. And how long did you do that for?

21 A. Almost six months.

22 Q. Okay. And so approximately six

23 months after starting as a security guard, you

24 left that job, and what did you do next?

25 A. I worked at Alorica.

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1 Q. Could you spell that?

2 A. It's A-l-o-r-i-c-a.

3 Q. Alorica?

4 A. A-l-o-r-i-c-a.

5 Q. Oh, Alorica.

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. And what kind of company is

8 Alorica?

9 A. It's a call center.

10 Q. Is that where you work now?

11 A. No.

12 Q. All right. How long did you work

13 at Alorica?

14 A. Almost three years.

15 Q. Three years. Okay. And when did

16 you leave, approximately?

17 A. I left beginning of 2018.

18 Q. And why did you leave?

19 A. I moved to Phoenix, Arizona.

20 Q. Where is Alorica located?

21 A. It is located in Warren, Ohio.

22 Q. Oh, it's in Warren. Okay. Why did

23 you decide to move to Phoenix, Arizona?

24 A. I wanted a change.

25 Q. Any other reason?

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1 A. No.

2 Q. Just -- just wanted a change of

3 scenery, get out of the midwest, huh?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. All right. So you would have been

6 about 27, 28 at the time you moved out to

7 Phoenix?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. Did you have work when you moved to

10 Phoenix or did you just kind of pull up root

11 and say catch as catch can?

12 A. I pulled up root and didn't have a

13 job lined up.

14 Q. Okay. And do you have a job now?

15 A. Yes, I do.

16 Q. All right. Was that the -- well,

17 let's back up.

18 When did you get employment after

19 moving to Phoenix?

20 A. Between April and May.

21 Q. Of?

22 A. Of last year.

23 Q. Of 2018?

24 A. 2018.

25 Q. And who was that with?

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1 A. That is with Asurion,

2 A-s-u-r-i-o-n.

3 Q. Asurion. And is that where you

4 work now?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. That's your current employer,

7 Asurion?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. What kind of company is Asurion?

10 A. A call center.

11 Q. And what's your title at Asurion?

12 A. I'm a tech support agent. I don't

13 know my exact title. It's changed multiple

14 times.

15 Q. Tech support agent?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. And so is Asurion, you know, like a

18 company where if people are having various

19 technical problems with something, they call

20 the help line and it gets to you and then you

21 try to walk them through and resolve whatever

22 problem they're having? Is that accurate?

23 A. Yes. They're also the phone

24 insurance company.

25 Q. Oh, okay. And so if I were to call

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1 with an issue, depending on what I'm calling

2 about, I might get routed to you; is that

3 accurate?

4 A. Depending on which carrier you

5 have, yes.

6 Q. Okay. So you've been there about a

7 year and a half?

8 A. Just over a year.

9 Q. Just over a year. Any other

10 employment since graduating from Youngstown

11 that we haven't covered or discussed?

12 A. I don't believe so. I worked for

13 Sam's Club, but I believe I finished that

14 before I graduated. If not, it would have been

15 shortly afterwards.

16 Q. Okay. Do you have any areas of

17 special expertise or knowledge which you may

18 have developed either during your education or

19 since you graduated that would not necessarily

20 fall into areas of criminal justice or the --

21 the jobs that we've talked about thus far?

22 A. No.

23 Q. You understand that sex and gender

24 are two different concepts, right?

25 MS. INGELHART: Objection. Calls

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1 for expert testimony.

2 Q. Go ahead and answer.

3 A. As far as that goes, I would

4 consider them the same.

5 Q. Okay. You're not a medical doctor,

6 so you don't consider yourself having any

7 special expertise on a person's biological sex,

8 right?

9 MS. INGELHART: Objection. Calls

10 for expert testimony and to the standing

11 objection about terms of art, but you can

12 answer.

13 THE WITNESS: Yeah.

14 Q. Well, you're not a medical doctor,

15 right?

16 A. No.

17 Q. And you don't consider yourself

18 having expertise on biological sex, right?

19 MS. INGELHART: Objection. Calls

20 for expert testimony as to the term of art.

21 Standing objection, but you can answer.

22 THE WITNESS: I do not.

23 Q. And from a medical perspective, do

24 you understand how a person's sex is

25 determined?

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1 MS. INGELHART: Objection. Calls

2 for expert testimony, but you can answer.

3 THE WITNESS: I do.

4 Q. So what is your understanding of

5 how a person's biological sex is determined?

6 MS. INGELHART: Objection. Calls

7 for expert testimony.

8 THE WITNESS: In my personal

9 opinion, sex and gender are the same and it's

10 dependent on the gender identity of the

11 individuals.

12 Can I take a break?

13 Q. Is that the end of your

14 understanding? Have you finished answering

15 question?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Yep, you can take a break.

18 (Recess taken.)

19 Q. So we left off, you had said that

20 your understanding of how a person's biological

21 sex is determined is based on their gender

22 identity. Is that -- is that accurate? Does

23 that accurately reflect your testimony?

24 MS. INGELHART: Objection.

25 Misstates testimony and also calls for expert

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1 testimony, but you can answer.

2 THE WITNESS: I said I believe sex

3 and gender are the same thing.

4 Q. And then what is your understanding

5 of how a person's biological sex is determined?

6 MS. INGELHART: Objection. Calls

7 for expert testimony. You can answer.

8 THE WITNESS: I'm not entirely

9 certain.

10 Q. Okay. So -- and maybe I misheard

11 your testimony before we took a break, but you

12 testified that you thought it depended on

13 someone's gender identity. Are you -- are you

14 saying that it may depend on that or other

15 things, or are you saying you just don't know?

16 MS. INGELHART: Objection. Vague.

17 Misstates prior testimony, but you can answer.

18 THE WITNESS: I believe you

19 stated -- you said "sex" before and you're

20 saying "biological sex" now, that's why I

21 was --

22 Q. Let me ask you this: In your mind,

23 is there a difference between someone's

24 biological sex and sex?

25 MS. INGELHART: Objection. Calls

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1 for expert testimony. You can answer.

2 THE WITNESS: I am not sure how to

3 answer that question.

4 Q. So you don't know if there's a

5 difference between biological sex and sex?

6 A. Correct.

7 MS. INGELHART: Objection. Expert

8 testimony. That's fine.

9 Q. And you don't know if there's a

10 difference between someone's sex or gender?

11 MS. INGELHART: Objection. Calls

12 for expert testimony. You can answer.

13 THE WITNESS: I believe that's the

14 same thing.

15 Q. Okay. And then what about the

16 difference between someone's biological sex and

17 their gender, do you know if there's a

18 difference between those two things?

19 MS. INGELHART: Objection. Calls

20 for expert testimony.

21 THE WITNESS: I'm unfamiliar with

22 that term, but I don't believe it -- there's a

23 difference.

24 Q. Do you have an understanding of how

25 a person's gender identity is determined?

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1 MS. INGELHART: Objection. Calls

2 for expert testimony, but you can answer.

3 THE WITNESS: Personally, I do.

4 Q. Okay. What is your -- what is your

5 personal understanding?

6 A. My personal understanding is that

7 is determined by what they present as.

8 Q. And "they" being the individual?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. You're not a psychiatrist or

11 psychologist, are you?

12 A. No.

13 Q. You don't consider yourself an

14 expert on gender or gender identity, do you?

15 A. I do not.

16 Q. You haven't taken any courses on

17 distinction between sex and gender, right?

18 A. I have not.

19 Q. You don't have an certifications or

20 degrees under which you've achieved -- that

21 you've achieved, sorry, on the distinction

22 between sex and gender?

23 A. I do not.

24 Q. You haven't published any papers on

25 the distinction between sex and gender?

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1 A. I have not.

2 Q. Nor have you given any talks or

3 presentations on the topic of sex and gender?

4 A. I have not.

5 Q. Do you believe birth certificates

6 are a form of identification?

7 MS. INGELHART: Objection. Calls

8 for expert testimony and legal conclusion, but

9 you can answer.

10 THE WITNESS: Personally, I do.

11 Q. And do you believe that birth

12 certificates reflect a person's biological data

13 that exists at the time of birth?

14 MS. INGELHART: Objection.

15 Apologies. Objection. Calls for expert

16 testimony and legal conclusion.

17 THE WITNESS: Can you clarify the

18 question?

19 Q. I can repeat it and then we can go

20 from there. If you need further clarification,

21 I'm happy to do so.

22 Do you believe that birth

23 certificates reflect biological data that

24 exists at the time of an individual's birth?

25 MS. INGELHART: Same objection.

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1 THE WITNESS: I apologize, but what

2 do you mean by "biological data"?

3 Q. Okay. So do you understand what

4 the term "biological data" means?

5 A. Not completely.

6 Q. Would you consider a person's name

7 biological data?

8 MS. INGELHART: Objection. Calls

9 for legal conclusion and to the term of art

10 issue we've been discussing. It appears that

11 "biological information" is being used as a

12 term of art and plaintiff isn't an expert in

13 such definition, but you can answer.

14 THE WITNESS: Can you give me the

15 definition of it?

16 Q. Well, I can try. I think it might

17 be more productive, though, to -- well, let's

18 put it this way: You have a Facebook page,

19 right?

20 A. I do.

21 Q. And on that Facebook page, you

22 enter certain information, your name, maybe

23 some of your interests, maybe some of your

24 hobbies, approximately where you're from or

25 where you live, right?

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1 A. Yeah.

2 Q. So that's the kind of information

3 which I'm referring to as biological data. Do

4 you understand?

5 A. Yes, I do know.

6 Q. So based on that understanding, do

7 you agree that a birth certificate contains

8 biological data that exists at the time of

9 birth of an individual?

10 MS. INGELHART: Objection. Calls

11 for expert testimony, a term of art, but you

12 can answer.

13 THE WITNESS: Personally, as a form

14 of identification, I believe it should require

15 information as of -- that is current.

16 Q. Okay. So your belief is that the

17 birth certificate should have current

18 information on it, right?

19 A. That's correct.

20 Q. But I guess my question wasn't

21 about what you believe should be, my question

22 is about what actually is, and so does the

23 birth certificate contain information,

24 biological or otherwise, which existed at the

25 time of birth of the individual?

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1 MS. INGELHART: Objection. Calls

2 for expert testimony and the term of art

3 issues, but you can answer.

4 THE WITNESS: It would contain

5 information from then, yes.

6 Q. Do you know whether the information

7 on the birth certificate is recorded by the

8 individual who was born or by the Ohio

9 Department of Health?

10 MS. INGELHART: Objection. Calls

11 for expert testimony. Beyond the scope of

12 plaintiff's knowledge.

13 THE WITNESS: I am not sure who

14 fills that information out. My apologies.

15 Q. So you don't know who fills it out?

16 A. That's correct.

17 Q. Do you have any -- well, let me ask

18 you this: Do you believe the individual who's

19 identified on the birth certificate fills out

20 the information?

21 A. Obviously not.

22 Q. But who else it might have been,

23 you don't have any idea?

24 A. That's correct. If it was the

25 parents, the Department, I am not familiar with

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1 how that works.

2 Q. And do you have any understanding

3 on what ODH's role is in recording information

4 that has reported to it on the birth

5 certificate?

6 MS. INGELHART: Objection. Expert

7 testimony.

8 THE WITNESS: Not entirely.

9 Q. Well, what about partially, do you

10 have any partial understanding?

11 MS. INGELHART: Objection. Vague.

12 THE WITNESS: I understand a little

13 bit about it, but I don't know the actual

14 policies and procedures as to how it's done.

15 Q. What is your understanding about

16 how the Department of Health records that

17 information?

18 MS. INGELHART: Objection. Calls

19 for expert testimony. You can answer.

20 THE WITNESS: That some of the

21 information is recorded when the person is

22 born.

23 Q. Anything else?

24 A. No.

25 Q. Recorded by ODH, right?

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1 MS. INGELHART: Objection. Expert

2 testimony. You can answer.

3 THE WITNESS: If that's who does

4 it. I wasn't sure if it was that or the

5 doctors. I'm not familiar how that procedure

6 works. I've never had a child.

7 Q. Understood.

8 To your knowledge, does the

9 individual whose information is recorded on the

10 birth certificate certify the accuracy of the

11 birth certificate?

12 MS. INGELHART: Objection. Expert

13 testimony. You can answer.

14 THE WITNESS: Do you mean, at the

15 time that it's there or later on?

16 Q. Well, let's start with at the time

17 that the birth record is prepared.

18 A. Obviously not.

19 Q. And what about in any other time

20 after that?

21 A. If there are any mistakes,

22 inconsistencies, then yes.

23 Q. Do you know what the process would

24 be for an individual to certify the accuracy of

25 their birth certificate?

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1 MS. INGELHART: Objection. Calls

2 for expert testimony.

3 THE WITNESS: I do not.

4 Q. Have you ever attempted to --

5 MS. INGELHART: Calls for a legal

6 conclusion.

7 Q. Have you ever attempted to certify

8 the accuracy or mistakes, as you characterize

9 them, on your birth certificate?

10 A. I had my name changed on the birth

11 certificate, if that's what you're asking.

12 Q. No, not exactly. But other than

13 your name change, have you attempted to certify

14 any accuracies or inaccuracies or mistakes on

15 your birth record?

16 A. No.

17 Q. At the time you were born on your

18 birth record, was your name is correct?

19 MS. INGELHART: Objection. Calls

20 for legal conclusion. You can answer.

21 THE WITNESS: I suppose not.

22 Q. No. Your name was accurate as of

23 the time you were born. Later on in life, you

24 changed your name, right?

25 A. Correct.

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1 Q. And then you submitted some filings

2 or paperwork with the Department of Health to

3 have that name changed on your birth record,

4 right?

5 A. I believe so, but it wasn't the

6 courthouse that I gave the information to.

7 Q. All right. The courthouse, then,

8 filed or submitted that paperwork to ODH,

9 right?

10 A. Most likely, yeah.

11 Q. Is it your understanding, then,

12 that that information was actually changed on

13 your -- on your birth record?

14 A. I was told it was.

15 Q. Have you seen a copy of your birth

16 record that includes that new information?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. We'll take a look later at your

19 birth record, but I want to move on to another

20 topic for the moment.

21 Do you hold yourself out as a

22 transgendered individual to the public?

23 MS. INGELHART: Objection. Vague.

24 THE WITNESS: What do you mean by

25 that exactly?

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1 Q. Well, I mean, do you advertise the

2 fact that you're transgendered?

3 MS. INGELHART: Objection. Vague.

4 Foundation.

5 THE WITNESS: To the public, no.

6 Q. Are you part of any groups

7 associated with transgendered individuals?

8 A. What would be your definition of

9 "groups" be?

10 Q. Any support groups or organizations

11 or charities or advocacy groups, anything.

12 A. No.

13 Q. How many people have you told that

14 you are transgendered?

15 MS. INGELHART: Objection. Vague.

16 You can answer.

17 THE WITNESS: Quite a few.

18 Q. Can you ballpark the -- the number?

19 Is it greater than 50? Is it less than 50?

20 A. I came out to my Facebook friends,

21 so I don't have an exact number.

22 Q. How many Facebook friends do you

23 have?

24 A. I'm not sure.

25 Q. Is it hundreds?

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1 A. Most likely. I don't keep track of

2 that.

3 Q. So it's a number that's so great,

4 you don't even keep track of it; is that right?

5 MS. INGELHART: Objection.

6 Misstates prior testimony. You can answer.

7 THE WITNESS: No. I just don't

8 keep track of how many friends I have on

9 Facebook.

10 Q. And you've came out to all of them

11 as transgendered, correct?

12 MS. INGELHART: Objection.

13 Misstates prior testimony and is vague, but you

14 can answer.

15 THE WITNESS: Actually, no. I came

16 out a few years ago, so anyone after that may

17 not know I'm trans.

18 Q. All right. So it's your testimony

19 that you came out on Facebook a few years ago,

20 but since then, any new friends that have

21 joined or friended you on Facebook may or may

22 not know your status as a transgendered person.

23 That's your testimony?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. You could easily find out how many

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1 friends you have on Facebook, right?

2 A. Yeah.

3 Q. I know I don't have an exhibit to

4 show you of your Facebook page, but I've had a

5 chance to look at it, and on the top of your

6 Facebook page, on your -- at the top of your

7 profile, there's a picture of someone who looks

8 like you. Does that ring a bell?

9 MS. INGELHART: Objection. Lacks

10 foundation and speculation, but you can answer.

11 THE WITNESS: Are you talking about

12 my profile picture?

13 Q. I'm talking about your Facebook

14 profile picture to which your attorney has

15 objected on foundation grounds, yes.

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. And it says your name, Ashley

18 Breda, right?

19 A. Ashley Breda.

20 Q. Ashley Breda, right?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. And then right underneath that,

23 there's a box labeled "intro," and on that book

24 box, it says: I'm a 29-year-old trans woman

25 who lives all things anime, gaming and tech

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1 related.

2 Does that ring a bell?

3 MS. INGELHART: Same objection to

4 foundation and calling for speculation, but you

5 can answer.

6 THE WITNESS: I actually didn't

7 realize it said that. My Facebook login

8 changed and there's no intros anymore.

9 Q. So does that change your answer on

10 whether or not the entire collection of your

11 Facebook friends, which you said likely numbers

12 in the hundreds, know about your status as a

13 transgendered individual?

14 MS. INGELHART: Objection. Calls

15 for speculation.

16 THE WITNESS: I said I --

17 Q. I'm sorry. It came back again.

18 It's not you, it's the system. It's literally

19 cutting out.

20 A. Okay. I said I speculate that most

21 do, but I'm sure there's a few who don't.

22 Q. And that's because you've

23 advertised that on the front page of your

24 Facebook profile that you are a 29-year-old

25 trans woman, right?

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1 MS. INGELHART: Misstates --

2 objection. Misstates prior testimony and lack

3 of foundation, but you can answer.

4 THE WITNESS: To my friends, yes.

5 I believe my Facebook is private.

6 Q. Would a private Facebook account

7 prevent people from viewing this information

8 about you being a trans woman?

9 MS. INGELHART: Objection. Calls

10 for speculation. Lack of foundation. You can

11 answer.

12 THE WITNESS: I thought it did.

13 Q. That -- if -- well, that wouldn't

14 explain how I was able to just type it in and

15 look it up, though, right?

16 MS. INGELHART: Objection. Calls

17 for speculation. You can answer.

18 THE WITNESS: Yes. You taught me

19 something new.

20 Q. Well, I think we've all

21 demonstrated that I am not technological expert

22 today 'cause I couldn't even turn up the volume

23 on the video conferencing, so I will assure you

24 I didn't do anything highly advanced to get

25 onto your Facebook page, and it says what it

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1 says. And so, I mean, you would agree that at

2 least that information is available to the

3 public at large, right?

4 MS. INGELHART: Objection. Calls

5 for speculation. You can answer.

6 THE WITNESS: From the information

7 you've given me, I suppose it is.

8 Q. And while we're on the subject,

9 let's just briefly talk about your Twitter

10 handle. You have a Twitter handle or you tweet

11 as @ is that right?

12 A. That's correct.

13 Q. And if you go to that Twitter

14 handle, it -- it says Ashley Breda at the top

15 and @ right?

16 MS. INGELHART: Objection.

17 Foundation. You can answer.

18 THE WITNESS: I believe so, yes.

19 Q. And then you've got, like, on your

20 banner, it looks like some screen captures or

21 graphics related to some anime and final

22 fantasy. Does that ring a bell?

23 A. Yes.

24 MS. INGELHART: Objection.

25 Foundation. It's fine. You can answer.

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1 Q. And like your Facebook account, at

2 least some aspects of your Twitter account are

3 open to the public, are they not?

4 MS. INGELHART: Objection.

5 Foundation. Speculation. You can answer.

6 THE WITNESS: I would assume so.

7 Q. And anyone with log onto Twitter

8 and see that you, Ashley Breda, tweet under the

9 handle of right?

10 A. Yeah.

11 MS. INGELHART: Calls for

12 speculation. You can answer.

13 Q. And like your Facebook page, it

14 says you're 29, right?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. And it also says you're trans,

17 right?

18 A. It does.

19 Q. And "trans" is short for

20 "transgender," right?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. And it also says right?

23 MS. INGELHART: Objection.

24 Foundation. You can answer.

25 THE WITNESS: That's correct.

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1 

2 

3 t e 

4 m e x o r r 

5 

6 MS. INGELHART: Objection. Sorry.

7 Objection. Calls for expert testimony and to

8 the standing objection on terms of art at issue

9 in the case, but you can answer.

10 THE WITNESS: Can you repeat the

11 question?

12 Q. Yeah. I'd love to. Well, let's

13 back up.

14 

15 

16 MS. INGELHART: Objection. Vague,

17 but you can answer.

18 

19 e I d 

20

21 

22 

23 MS. INGELHART: Objection. Vague.

24 Misstates, but you can answer.

25 THE WITNESS: That's correct. 

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1 e T n e g f - 

2

3 Q. 2014, yeah.

4 A. Yeah. So it would have been

5 sometime in the beginning, in the winter to

6 spring of 2015.

7 Can I take another break?

8 MR. BLAKE: Sure. Absolutely.

9 (Recess taken.)

10 Q. So when we took a break, we were

11 just trying to understand what -- what this

12 entry meant on your Twitter page,

13 and I understand now, based on your testimony,

14 

15 

16 

17 A. Yeah.

18 

19 

20 A. That's correct.

21 

22 

23 MS. INGELHART: Objection. Expert

24 testimony. You can answer.

25 THE WITNESS: To the best of my

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1 knowledge, 

2 

3 Q. 

4 

5 e e ; s 

6 MS. INGELHART: Objection. Calls

7 for expert testimony and vague, but you can

8 answer.

9 THE WITNESS: Personally to me,

10 yes.

11 Q. And like your Facebook page, this

12 Twitter page is available for anyone, including

13 me, to go and see, right?

14 A. That's correct.

15 Q. Do you have any idea how many

16 people have gone onto your Twitter page and

17 seen that you are a -- identified as a trans?

18 MS. INGELHART: Objection.

19 Speculation. You can answer.

20 THE WITNESS: I have absolutely no

21 idea.

22 Q. You would expect that to be a large

23 number, though, right?

24 MS. INGELHART: Objection.

25 Speculation. You can answer.

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1 THE WITNESS: Maybe. I don't use

2 Twitter much.

3 Q. Today's date is the 21st of August,

4 right, correct?

5 A. Probably. I actually don't know

6 the date.

7 Q. Okay. I will represent to you

8 today is August 21st, 2019, and if I have

9 messed that up, I assure you your counsel will

10 object. Assuming today is the 21st, even in

11 your time zone, on August 18th, you tweeted: I

12 love Windows 10 LOL.

13 Do you recall making that tweet?

14 MS. INGELHART: Objection.

15 Foundation. You can answer.

16 THE WITNESS: Yes.

17 Q. And on August 17th, you tweeted:

18 How is it that every fire emblem is better than

19 the last? I love it.

20 Do you recall making that tweet?

21 MS. INGELHART: Objection.

22 Foundation. You can answer.

23 THE WITNESS: I do.

24 Q. And on August 10th: This is long,

25 but it's an amazing read, and then there's some

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1 link. Do you recall tweeting that?

2 MS. INGELHART: Objection.

3 Foundation. You can answer.

4 THE WITNESS: Yes. That's

5 automated.

6 Q. And on August 9th, you wrote or

7 tweeted: Sure, LOL. Right?

8 MS. INGELHART: Objection.

9 Foundation. You can answer.

10 THE WITNESS: Probably.

11 Q. All right. So that's at least four

12 tweets in the last week or so, 11 days. Is

13 that -- does that -- is that consistent with

14 your Twitter usage over the past few months?

15 MS. INGELHART: Objection.

16 Foundation, but you can answer.

17 THE WITNESS: Probably.

18 Q. So I guess with regards to a

19 question I asked previously, you know, the

20 number -- trying to put a finger on the number

21 of people you've told that you're

22 transgendered. You can't really be certain but

23 if you include Facebook friends and potential

24 people who viewed your Twitter page, that could

25 be in the hundreds, if not higher; is that fair

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1 to say?

2 MS. INGELHART: Objection. Calls

3 for speculation. You can answer.

4 THE WITNESS: I would speculate

5 that's true.

6 Q. Do you know how many people have

7 found out about your transgendered status due

8 to your birth certificate?

9 MS. INGELHART: Objection. Calls

10 for speculation. You can answer.

11 THE WITNESS: I know of a few, yes.

12 Q. Which -- can you identify those few

13 instances?

14 A. When I had to present my birth

15 certificate at Alorica, and another example is

16 at the Arizona DMV or whatever it is. It's a

17 different acronym than Ohio.

18 Q. All right. So let's just take

19 those one at a time.

20 Alorica is the employer you

21 discussed earlier, which was the call center in

22 Warren, Ohio; is that right?

23 A. That's correct.

24 Q. And your testimony is that you

25 were -- you had to -- or you turned over your

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1 birth certificate to that employer, what, as

2 part of your hiring process?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. And were you required to turn over

5 that birth certificate in order to start work

6 with Alorica?

7 A. That's correct.

8 Q. And when you turned over that

9 information or your birth to Alorica, were

10 there any other documents that they would have

11 taken in substitution of the birth certificate?

12 A. They needed my birth certificate

13 and a state ID. They needed both.

14 Q. Okay. And whom at Alorica did you

15 give your birth certificate to?

16 A. The HR department.

17 Q. And when you handed it to the HR

18 department, did you hand it to a specific

19 individual or did you just put it in an

20 envelope and kind of send it into the

21 department?

22 A. I handed it to the secretary. I

23 don't know the name.

24 Q. And when you handed it to the

25 secretary, did she review the birth

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1 certificate, or do you know?

2 A. She looked at it.

3 Q. All right. And do you know

4 whether -- well, did they make a copy of it and

5 give it back to you, or did you have to leave

6 it with them for a while? What do you know?

7 A. I left it with them for a while. I

8 don't know what they did with it.

9 Q. And then at some point in time,

10 they gave it back?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. Did anyone at Alorica question you

13 about the sex identifier on your birth

14 certificate?

15 MS. INGELHART: Objection to the

16 ongoing term of art issue at issue in this

17 case, but you can answer.

18 MR. BLAKE: Yeah. And I've granted

19 you the standing objection on that term, and if

20 you want to sort of write down the terms and

21 read for the record the exact terms you're

22 objecting to. I just think if you object to

23 every single question that I have that includes

24 any one of those terms, particularly with the

25 difficulty of the video, we might be here

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1 forever. So if that's satisfactory to you,

2 that's what I'd recommend. Will that work for

3 you?

4 MS. INGELHART: Yeah. So let's

5 make a list now of terms that I have heard so

6 far, and then if there's a new term introduced

7 or one that I missed, is that fine?

8 MR. BLAKE: Fantastic.

9 MS. INGELHART: Okay. So great.

10 Great. Thanks. So "sex," "biological sex,"

11 "gender," "gender identity," "transgender" and

12 variations thereof like "transgenderism" or

13 "transgendered" and also "cisgender." I

14 believe those are the terms. Do you recall any

15 others, Jake, that I've objected to?

16 MR. BLAKE: Yeah, "sex identifier."

17 MS. INGELHART: Thank you. Thank

18 you. "Sex identifier." And, yes, thank you.

19 Sorry. Apologies. I will --

20 MR. BLAKE: And just so the

21 record's clear, counsel for ODH is granting a

22 standing objection on the grounds that such

23 terms are potentially terms of art. Is that a

24 fair characterization of your objection?

25 MS. INGELHART: Yes. Thank you. I

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1 appreciate it.

2 MR. BLAKE: Okay. And, of course,

3 the Department of Health and the other

4 defendants do not waive their rights to oppose

5 those objections if and when that becomes

6 necessary.

7 Q. Okay. Very good.

8 See if I can figure out where I

9 was. Alorica, Warren, Ohio, a lovely city. So

10 did anyone either from the HR department or

11 anyone else at Alorica ever talk to you about

12 the sex identifier on your birth certificate?

13 A. They did, yes.

14 Q. Okay. Who talked to you about the

15 sex identifier?

16 A. Multiple people in my HR

17 department, multiple supervisors, employees.

18 The HR department told everyone I was trans.

19 Q. So I wrote down multiple people in

20 the HR department, supervisors and other

21 employees. Is that the list?

22 A. That's correct.

23 Q. All right. Approximately when --

24 when did this occur, date?

25 A. It was once when I was first hired,

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1 and also I had to present it again later on

2 down the line. I don't have exact dates.

3 Q. I don't know if I got the

4 approximate date when you started at Alorica.

5 I have that you left at the beginning of 2018,

6 and you were there for three years, so would

7 the beginning of 2015 be an approximate time

8 frame for when you started at Alorica and had

9 to hand over your birth certificate to the HR

10 department?

11 A. The beginning or middle of 2015, I

12 believe. I don't recall the exact time.

13 

14 

15

16 A. That's correct.

17 Q. And it says you joined Facebook in

18 September 2018. Have you updated your

19 introductory information since you joined in

20 September 2008?

21 A. I would assume so.

22 Q. When did you come out to your

23 friends on Facebook about your status as a

24 trans person?

25 A. Sometime in early 2015, I believe.

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1 Q. So prior to --

2 A. I don't remember the exact date.

3 Q. Prior to or around the same time as

4 the time you started at Alorica?

5 A. Prior.

6 Q. Prior to that. And would you have

7 included that blurb about "I am a 29-year-old

8 trans woman who loves all things anime, gaming

9 and tech related" on your Facebook page at

10 about the same time you came out to your

11 friends on Facebook as being trans?

12 A. I don't believe so. I believe

13 that's much -- I believe that's more recent.

14 Q. Okay. Understood. But you made at

15 least some disclosure on Facebook to whomever

16 your Facebook friends were at that point about

17 your status as a trans individual, correct?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. What did the multiple people in the

20 HR department talk to you about regarding your

21 birth certificate?

22 A. They made various jokes about it,

23 what you would expect.

24 Q. I wouldn't expect that at all,

25 frankly, and I'm sorry to hear that. But your

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1 testimony is that the HR department at Alorica

2 came up to you after you handed in your birth

3 certificate and mocked you for being a

4 transgendered person; is that right?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. All right. Well, I'm sorry to hear

7 that. I refer to my prior comment about

8 Warren, Ohio, but I guess that puts me in the

9 same boat, I suppose. I'm making fun of them.

10 All right. Anything else regarding

11 your birth certificate, or I should say

12 anything actually related to some business

13 purpose regarding the birth certificate from

14 the HR department?

15 A. Yes. They also requested when I

16 asked to use the women's bathroom, to see my

17 birth certificate again, which caused more

18 issues.

19 Q. So that's the time you said they

20 requested the birth certificate when you

21 started your employment, and then later on

22 during your employment when you were trying to

23 use the bathroom that was appropriate for your

24 gender, they wanted to see your birth

25 certificate again; is that accurate?

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1 A. That's correct.

2 Q. And -- well, let's back up.

3 When you turned in your birth

4 certificate and they talked to you at the

5 beginning, they never indicated that you

6 wouldn't be hired or would be unsuitable for a

7 particular job based on your gender, right?

8 A. No.

9 Q. Okay. And then later, with the

10 bathroom incident, did you actually present

11 your birth certificate again?

12 A. I did.

13 Q. And did that resolve the issue?

14 A. It did not.

15 Q. What did they -- after you turned

16 in your birth certificate, what did they tell

17 you to do?

18 A. I believe her words were, "I'll

19 never be a woman. I'll always be a man in

20 God's eyes," and then the site director become

21 involved and let me use the bathroom.

22 Q. So who was this woman? Was it

23 someone in HR?

24 A. She was the head of HR. I don't

25 recall her name anymore.

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1 Q. This was the head of HR came up to

2 you?

3 A. I do believe so, yes.

4 Q. And said that you would never be a

5 woman in God's eyes. That was the head of HR

6 for this company? Is that -- do I have that

7 right?

8 A. For that site, yes. And this was

9 in her private office.

10 Q. I understand why you left for

11 Phoenix. I think I fully understand why you

12 went to Phoenix.

13 A. I'm sorry. We're getting some

14 feedback here.

15 Q. Oh, sorry.

16 MS. INGELHART: We put ourselves on

17 mute. Yeah, I don't know what's causing it.

18 MR. BLAKE: How's that?

19 THE WITNESS: I think --

20 Q. I was just commenting that I think

21 I understand why you went to Phoenix.

22 A. Yeah.

23 Q. I don't blame you.

24 Okay. So the site supervisor at

25 Alorica got involved and allowed you to use

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1 the -- the restroom appropriate for your

2 gender; is that right?

3 A. That's correct.

4 Q. And when, approximately, was that?

5 A. I don't remember the exact date. I

6 know it was maybe a couple of months after I

7 started.

8 Q. Okay. So in the beginning part of

9 your employment?

10 A. Yeah. It would have been a few

11 months after I started.

12 Q. And other than this incident with

13 the HR director and the various folks from HR

14 making jokes, were there any other -- were

15 there any other times that you were confronted

16 by HR about your gender or your birth

17 certificate or anything like that?

18 A. I don't believe so.

19 Q. Okay. Let's talk about the

20 supervisor incidents, then. Was it one

21 supervisor or many supervisors?

22 A. The HR lead told -- from what I was

23 told, she told everyone.

24 Q. So the head HR person -- is this

25 the same person that had the bathroom issue?

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1 A. Yes.

2 Q. She told everyone. And when you

3 say "everyone," everyone that worked at that

4 site?

5 A. I'm sure not everyone, but majority

6 of the people I came in contact with found out

7 either from her or from someone she told.

8 Q. And that included some of your

9 supervisors?

10 A. That's correct.

11 Q. All right. And what did your

12 supervisors do with that information?

13 A. Well, some of them started treating

14 me differently. A few of them, from that

15 point, purposely misgendered me and offhand

16 comments.

17 Q. How did they treat you differently?

18 A. I'm not sure how to put that into

19 words.

20 Q. So you're unable to -- you're

21 unable to -- you're unable to convey the way in

22 which they were treating you differently? Is

23 it just your general sense?

24 A. That, and like I said, some of them

25 would -- started purposes misgendering me and I

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1 stopped being called for a couple of things by

2 them.

3 Q. You stopped being called for, like,

4 certain tasks or work?

5 A. Both, yeah.

6 Q. So you felt as if your supervisors

7 were intentionally directing work away from you

8 based on your gender?

9 A. Some of them, yes.

10 Q. Some, but not all?

11 A. Correct.

12 Q. And you said misgendered. What do

13 you mean by misgendering you?

14 A. I mean as far as spread that I was

15 trans, everyone referred to me as "he"

16 afterwards. Quite a few people started saying

17 "he."

18 Q. Okay. And the offhanded comments

19 coming from your supervisors, what did those

20 entail?

21 A. Various comments involving --

22 trying to think of a way to put this in a kind

23 official way, but my downstairs area.

24 Q. So they would -- they would

25 actually remark on your anatomy?

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1 A. That's correct.

2 Q. At a place of work?

3 A. That's correct.

4 Q. In 2015?

5 A. That's correct.

6 Q. Okay. And then you -- you

7 mentioned coworkers, other employees. Could

8 you describe the circumstances involving those

9 individuals?

10 A. I know quite a few made comments

11 behind my back. I don't know exactly what the

12 comments are, but I do know quite a few of them

13 were very, very much anti-trans.

14 Q. So you don't --

15 A. And it made me very uncomfortable.

16 Q. Did you overhear any of the

17 comments?

18 A. I did, but I don't recall what the

19 exact comments were.

20 Q. So you overheard anti-trans

21 comments being relayed by some of your -- your

22 colleagues at work. Would you characterize it

23 as a handful or -- or some? I mean, what

24 number of colleagues?

25 A. I would probably say a handful.

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1 Q. Okay. So not -- not most, but some

2 of your -- your colleagues were passing around

3 sort of anti-transgendered comments; is that

4 right?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. Did Alorica have any policies about

7 workplace harassment or hostile workplace

8 activities?

9 MS. INGELHART: Objection. Calls

10 for speculation. You can answer.

11 THE WITNESS: For some things, not

12 others. It wasn't until the -- near the end of

13 my tenure that they added being trans to that

14 list.

15 Q. Oh, so when you joined Alorica,

16 they had a workplace harassment policy, right?

17 A. That covered some things, but not

18 that.

19 Q. And is it your understanding that

20 it covered things like probably sex and race

21 and religion, those sorts of things?

22 A. It covered race and religion, but

23 the original guideline did not -- I don't

24 believe it said that.

25 Q. Oh, okay. So -- but sometime

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1 during your employment, they -- they added --

2 well, did they add transgender to the list

3 of -- of items?

4 A. I don't recall. I do know that

5 they added sex to it.

6 Q. I see. So you don't know if they

7 specifically added transgender to their

8 workplace harassment policy, but you know they

9 added sex to their workplace harassment policy;

10 is that right?

11 A. That's correct.

12 Q. After they added sex to the

13 workplace harassment policy, did the harassment

14 against you stop?

15 A. It did.

16 Q. Were there ever any site-wide or

17 company meetings about what kind of behavior

18 was appropriate and inappropriate at the

19 workplace?

20 A. Yeah.

21 Q. And do you feel that at least some

22 of those meetings or that meeting was as a

23 result of some of the harassment that had been

24 going on against you?

25 A. It could have been. I'm not able

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1 to speculate if that was the case or if that

2 was just company-wide.

3 Q. Did you report any of these

4 activities to others in the company?

5 A. You mean did I report me being

6 harassed by HR to HR?

7 Q. Well, that was going to be my next

8 question, but did -- my question was, you know:

9 Did you report any of these activities? And it

10 sounds like the answer might be no, but I want

11 you to --

12 A. I did provide these to some of my

13 immediate supervisors.

14 Q. Okay. And I understand the issues

15 with HR, which probably deterred you from

16 finding that a very useful pursuit, but did

17 you -- did you report any of this to HR?

18 A. I did complain about it, I believe,

19 and reported two of my supervisors to HR.

20 Q. Okay. But as far as whether or not

21 any action was taken based on your reports, you

22 don't know one way or the other?

23 A. No. They did not share that with

24 me.

25 Q. Except for that one time when the

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1 site supervisor intervened and said, no, you

2 can use this bathroom, which matches your

3 gender?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. All right. Okay. Very good. I

6 know that that's difficult to relay, so I

7 appreciate your willingness to go through it in

8 detail with me today.

9 All right. Let's turn our

10 attention briefly to the Arizona -- what you

11 called the DMV. I take it that you mean the

12 Arizona Department of Motor Vehicles or

13 whatever their equivalent is, right?

14 A. Yes. It's a different acronym than

15 it is in Ohio, so I get them confused.

16 Q. I'm sorry?

17 A. I said it's a different acronym

18 than in Ohio, so I get them confused.

19 Q. I think we're the BMV.

20 A. I believe so.

21 Q. Anyway, it's not important. We're

22 all talking about the same thing.

23 And can you just go into a little

24 bit of detail about that incident?

25 A. Sure. I had gone there to get a

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1 new ID since I had moved to Arizona. When I

2 did that, even though I showed them my Ohio ID

3 with female on it, they refused because they

4 said it's not a valid form of identification

5 and that they only accept based on the birth

6 certificate.

7 Q. So you went to the Arizona DMV to

8 get a new state issued ID, right?

9 A. That's correct.

10 Q. And was that a driver's license or

11 just an ID?

12 A. It's a state ID. I don't have a

13 driver's license.

14 Q. Okay. And in order to get that new

15 ID, you thought just showing your Ohio ID would

16 be sufficient, right?

17 A. That is what I assumed, yes.

18 Q. But when you got there, the clerk

19 at the DMV told you, "No, we don't accept the

20 Ohio ID, I need to see your birth certificate";

21 is that right?

22 A. That is correct. They said they

23 needed both.

24 Q. All right. So you then -- at that

25 point, did you show your birth certificate to

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1 the clerk?

2 A. I did.

3 Q. So you happened to have it with

4 you, I guess, right?

5 A. I try to be prepared.

6 Q. Yeah. All right. And what

7 happened when you showed the clerk the birth

8 certificate?

9 A. They said they would be happy to

10 give me a state ID, but they said according to

11 Arizona law, they would not be allowed to put

12 female on it because my birth certificate said

13 male. It wasn't until two supervisors got

14 involved who then talked about it quite loudly

15 and then they made an exception.

16 Q. All right. So, ultimately, after

17 the two supervisors got involved, they gave you

18 a state identification card which matches your

19 gender; is that accurate?

20 A. That's correct.

21 Q. And was the clerk wrong when he or

22 she said according to Arizona law, they

23 wouldn't be able to enter your gender on

24 their -- on their state ID?

25 MS. INGELHART: Objection. Calls

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1 for speculation and a legal conclusion, but you

2 can answer.

3 THE WITNESS: I don't know.

4 Q. But they made the change, so does

5 that indicate to you that she was incorrect

6 about her interpretation of Arizona law?

7 MS. INGELHART: Objection. Calls

8 for speculation. You can answer.

9 THE WITNESS: Like I said, I'm not

10 sure.

11 Q. Okay. I want to look at

12 Exhibit No. 2, which let me know when you have

13 that in front of you.

14 MS. INGELHART: I've got all of

15 them right here. Could you remind me which one

16 is 2? I apologize. They're not numbered. I

17 apologize.

18 MR. BLAKE: It's the complaint.

19 MS. INGELHART: Perfect. I'm going

20 to put the number on it now to avoid that.

21 Here you go.

22 Q. Do you have that in front of you

23 now?

24 A. I do.

25 Q. All right. So what you've just

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1 been handed as been previously marked as

2 Defendants' Exhibit 2, and this is the

3 complaint filed by you and others against the

4 Ohio Department of Health and others. Do you

5 recognize this document?

6 A. I do.

7 Q. And before today, have you -- have

8 you seen this document?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. Did you provide information that

11 was used to form or draft the allegations in

12 this document?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. Okay. I want you to turn to

15 Page 21. At the top of that page, it's

16 Paragraph 97.

17 A. You said Page 21?

18 Q. Correct.

19 MS. INGELHART: You know what?

20 She's looking at the wrong document. I'm

21 correcting. Here's Page 21 of Exhibit 3,

22 Paragraph 97.

23 THE WITNESS: Okay.

24 Q. So if you look at Paragraph 97,

25 about two-thirds to the bottom, there's a

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1 sentence which reads: The clerk erroneously

2 indicated that the gender marker on one's state

3 identification card would need to match the

4 gender marker on one's birth certificate.

5 Do you see that sentence?

6 A. I do.

7 Q. And you previously had testified

8 that you weren't sure whether the clerk was

9 properly interpreting the law. Now that I've

10 read that sentence to you, does that refresh

11 your recollection as to whether or not the

12 clerk was properly applying Arizona law?

13 A. I believe she wasn't.

14 Q. That's what you meant when you said

15 "erroneously," right?

16 A. Yes. What I was saying before was

17 that I don't know the specific law, but yes.

18 You are -- uh-huh.

19 Q. Thank you.

20 THE WITNESS: Can I take another

21 break?

22 MR. BLAKE: Sure. Yeah. It's

23 fine. Thank you.

24 (Recess taken.)

25 Q. If you look at the next paragraph

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1 in the complaint, Paragraph 98.

2 A. Give me one moment.

3 MS. INGELHART: Page 21.

4 THE WITNESS: Okay.

5 Q. You indicate that it was

6 humiliating to defend your sex to the Arizona

7 government employee; is that accurate?

8 A. Yeah.

9 Q. And in the previous paragraph, you

10 indicate that that interaction occurred in a

11 public place. Do you see that?

12 A. That's correct.

13 Q. Were there other people at the

14 Arizona DMV within earshot of the conversation

15 of the two supervisors with their employee?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. How many would you say?

18 A. I don't know. There was a lot of

19 people in line behind us.

20 Q. Did anyone that was in line behind

21 you come up afterwards and confront you or talk

22 to you about what they had overheard?

23 A. No, but I left incredibly quickly.

24 Q. Okay. So you don't know one way or

25 the other whether --

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1 A. Like I said, it was humiliating.

2 Q. But you don't know one way or the

3 other what any of those people thought or how

4 they reacted to the conversation that they --

5 they could have overheard at the Arizona DMV;

6 is that accurate?

7 A. Yeah. There was a few people that

8 was staring, but no one said anything.

9 Q. So the Ohio Department of Health is

10 a government agency of the State of Ohio. Is

11 that your understanding?

12 A. That is my understanding, yes.

13 Q. And Alorica is a private employer,

14 and, in particular, this site located in

15 Warren, Ohio, right?

16 A. That's correct.

17 Q. Are you aware of any connection

18 between the Ohio Department of Health and

19 Alorica?

20 MS. INGELHART: Objection. Calls

21 for speculation and calls for a legal, but you

22 can answer.

23 THE WITNESS: I don't know.

24 Q. You don't know if you're aware or

25 you're not aware?

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1 A. I'm not aware. I don't know what

2 you mean.

3 Q. Do you have any evidence or

4 information to support any connection between

5 the Ohio Department of Health and Alorica?

6 A. Like, a direct connection or an

7 indirect connection?

8 Q. Either.

9 A. Well, I don't believe it would have

10 happened if my birth certificate had correctly

11 identified me.

12 Q. Yeah. I guess that wasn't my

13 question. My question was: What evidence do

14 you have that suggests that there's any

15 connection direct or indirect between the Ohio

16 Department of Health and the Alorica call

17 center in Warren, Ohio?

18 MS. INGELHART: Object. Calls for

19 a legal conclusion. You can answer.

20 THE WITNESS: I'm not aware of any.

21 Q. I mean, Alorica's not a government

22 entity, right?

23 A. As far as I'm aware.

24 Q. It's not an office of the -- Office

25 of Vital Statistics, right?

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1 A. Not that I'm aware. I'm not sure

2 what contracts they have right now.

3 Q. When you were taking calls during

4 your time of employment, you were receiving

5 calls regarding phone providers, right?

6 A. That's correct.

7 Q. You never took a call where someone

8 was having trouble accessing, say, ODH's web

9 page or understanding the process for

10 correcting their birth certificate, right?

11 A. That's correct.

12 Q. ODH didn't direct Alorica to

13 request your birth certificate as part of your

14 on-boarding as an employee at the company,

15 correct?

16 MS. INGELHART: Objection. Calls

17 for speculation. You can answer.

18 THE WITNESS: No, but it is a

19 common practice.

20 Q. And ODH didn't direct the head of

21 HR to make jokes about your gender, correct?

22 A. No.

23 Q. And ODH didn't direct HR to tell

24 everyone else at the site about your gender,

25 right?

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1 MS. INGELHART: I mean, objection.

2 Calls for a legal conclusion and speculation,

3 but you can answer.

4 THE WITNESS: Like I said before,

5 no, but if my birth certificate was correct,

6 this wouldn't have happened.

7 Q. And ODH didn't direct your

8 supervisors to start treating you differently

9 based on the information recorded on your birth

10 certificate, right?

11 MS. INGELHART: Objection. Calls

12 for a legal conclusion. Speculation. You can

13 answer.

14 THE WITNESS: No, but them knowing,

15 it is very common.

16 Q. And ODH didn't direct your

17 colleagues or the other employees at the site

18 to make the anti-transgender comments about

19 you, right?

20 MS. INGELHART: Same objection.

21 You can answer.

22 THE WITNESS: No.

23 Q. To your knowledge, ODH didn't do

24 anything to direct or authorize anyone at

25 Alorica to do any of the things that you've

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1 discussed today while you were employed there,

2 right?

3 A. No. But, like I said, if this

4 would not have happened, they would not have

5 found out if it was on my birth certificate

6 showing male.

7 Q. You believe that the only thing

8 that caused employees and HR director and

9 supervisors at Alorica to harass you was the

10 fact that your birth certificate includes the

11 sex identifier of male? That's your testimony?

12 MS. INGELHART: Object. Sorry.

13 Objection. Misstates prior testimony. You can

14 answer.

15 THE WITNESS: It announced me as

16 trans, which made me become open to the

17 problem.

18 Q. Did anyone at Alorica ever tell you

19 if it hadn't been for your birth certificate,

20 none of this harassment would have ever

21 occurred?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. Who told you that?

24 A. I had quite a few friends that said

25 that they would not have known I was trans if

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1 it wasn't for that information being presented

2 and them being told.

3 Q. And so it's your assumption or

4 belief that had that information not been

5 included on your birth certificate, the head of

6 HR, for example, wouldn't have harassed you

7 about the bathroom?

8 MS. INGELHART: Objection. Calls

9 for speculation. You can answer.

10 THE WITNESS: Yes.

11 Q. In the situation at the Arizona

12 Department of Motor Vehicles, you understand

13 that that agency is run by the State of

14 Arizona, right?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. And that the State of Arizona

17 isn't -- well, that the laws and rules issued

18 in and enforced by the State of Arizona aren't

19 issued and enforced by ODH, right?

20 MS. INGELHART: Objection. Calls

21 for a legal conclusion. You can answer.

22 THE WITNESS: Can you repeat the

23 question again?

24 Q. Sure. ODH has nothing to do with

25 the Arizona Department of Motor Vehicles,

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1 right?

2 MS. INGELHART: Objection. Calls

3 for legal conclusion and speculation. You can

4 answer.

5 THE WITNESS: I'm not sure. I'm

6 sure they share information with each other.

7 Q. And on what basis to you contend

8 that the Arizona Department of motor vehicles

9 shares information with the Ohio Department of

10 Health?

11 A. Because they typed in my ID number

12 and my identification came up.

13 Q. Which ID number did they type in?

14 A. The ID on my Ohio ID.

15 Q. The Ohio -- your state issued ID?

16 A. Yeah.

17 Q. Not the ID number on your birth

18 certificate?

19 A. No.

20 Q. And, I mean, is it -- is it your

21 understanding that the Ohio Department of

22 Health does not manage or record or track Ohio

23 State identifications, including the state

24 identification that was issued to you?

25 A. Okay. Yeah.

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1 Q. All right. That would be probably

2 managed, and I don't know, maybe you know, by

3 the Ohio Bureau of Motor Vehicles, right?

4 MS. INGELHART: Objection. Calls

5 for speculation. You can answer.

6 THE WITNESS: I would assume so.

7 Q. Yeah. That's a safe assumption.

8 That's my assumption, at least, but you don't

9 have any -- you don't have any evidence to

10 suggest that that assumption's incorrect,

11 right?

12 A. No.

13 Q. So let me ask the question again

14 about Arizona. The Ohio Department of Health

15 has nothing to do with the Arizona Motor

16 Vehicle Division, right?

17 MS. INGELHART: Objection. Asked

18 and answered. You can answer.

19 THE WITNESS: As far as I know.

20 Q. And do you know whether Arizona's

21 Motor Vehicle Division is required by law or

22 rule to inspect the birth certificate before

23 providing a state identification?

24 A. I don't know.

25 Q. You don't know for certain, right?

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1 A. Yes.

2 Q. And whether or not Arizona has such

3 a law or rule, you aren't contending that the

4 Ohio Department of Health has any role in

5 enforcing or enacting Arizona's laws or rules

6 or policies, right?

7 MS. INGELHART: Objection. Calls

8 for speculation. You can answer.

9 THE WITNESS: Can you repeat the

10 question again?

11 Q. Yeah. Whether or not Arizona has

12 such a law or rule, you aren't contending that

13 the Ohio Department of Health has any role in

14 enforcing or enacting Arizona laws, rules or

15 policies, right?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. And ODH certainly doesn't have

18 anything to do with whether an Arizona state

19 employee is properly interpreting or applying

20 Arizona law, right?

21 MS. INGELHART: Objection. Calls

22 for a legal. Speculation, but you can answer.

23 THE WITNESS: I suppose that.

24 Q. If you go back to Page 20 on

25 Defendants' Exhibit 2, which is the complaint

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1 we previously looked at, and look at

2 Paragraph 95. Let me know when you're there.

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. That paragraph reads: Ms. Breda is

5 aware of the high incidents of harassment,

6 discrimination and violence directed at

7 transgender people. She has personally been a

8 target of online harassment.

9 Do you see that?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. When were you a target of online

12 harassment?

13 A. Multiple times, I would get -- I

14 would get messages on Facebook. Twitter is

15 pretty good at making sure that those messages

16 don't reach me, so I don't know about Twitter.

17 Q. Okay. So your -- the harassment

18 would come through Facebook; is that accurate?

19 A. For the most part, yes.

20 Q. And when did the harassment begin

21 approximately?

22 A. It began shortly after I came out

23 before I made my Facebook private.

24 Q. Okay. So that would have been

25 in -- and I apologize. What was the year where

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1 you came out on Facebook?

2 A. 2015, I believe.

3 Q. 2015. And at that point, you know

4 for a fact your Facebook profile was public,

5 right?

6 A. I believe so, yes.

7 Q. And you started receiving

8 harassment through Facebook, and is that what

9 prompted you to make your profile private or at

10 least semiprivate?

11 A. That's correct.

12 Q. And that would have been, when,

13 towards the end of 2015 or --

14 A. Probably. I'm not sure of the time

15 I made it private.

16 Q. The harassment carried on for a few

17 months, though?

18 A. Yeah. I still get some messages on

19 occasion, even now.

20 Q. Okay. And the harassment, just to

21 be clear, this is harassment directed at your

22 status as a transgender individual?

23 A. Yep.

24 Q. And as we saw before, at least some

25 public elements of your Facebook account which

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1 still advertise your status as a transgender

2 individual, right?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Did you ever display your birth

5 certificate online on your Facebook page or

6 anything like that?

7 A. I don't recall.

8 Q. And so assuming you hadn't done

9 that, how did the people harassing you online

10 know that you were transgendered, do you know?

11 MS. INGELHART: Objection. Calls

12 for speculation. You can answer.

13 THE WITNESS: I'm not sure.

14 Probably because it's printed on my page.

15 Q. So you don't contend that anything

16 ODH has done has resulted in the online

17 harassment, right?

18 MS. INGELHART: Objection. Calls

19 for speculation. You can answer.

20 THE WITNESS: I guess not.

21 Actually, I'd like to correct something I said.

22 Q. Go ahead.

23 A. I believe I did put a partial

24 picture of my birth certificate on my Facebook

25 profile.

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1 Q. All right. When did you do that?

2 A. It would have been shortly after my

3 name change.

4 Q. We can go ahead and go to

5 Exhibit 7, if you like.

6 - - - - -

7 (Thereupon, Deposition Exhibit 7,

8 Birth Certificate, was marked for

9 purposes of identification.)

10 - - - - -

11 Q. Got that in front of you?

12 A. Yes, I do.

13 Q. What's just been handed to you has

14 been previously marked as Exhibit 7, and this

15 is a copy of your certification of birth issued

16 by the Ohio Department of Health and the

17 Mahoning County General Health District. Do

18 you see that?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. It says at the -- well, the name is

21 Ashley Abigail Breda. That's you, right?

22 A. That's correct.

23 Q. Date of birth, ?

24 A. That's correct.

25 Q. All right. Your mother's and your

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1 father's name is there. That's all correct,

2 right?

3 A. Yep.

4 Q. And if you keep doing down, it says

5 legal name change on file, CO No. 120995. Do

6 you see that?

7 A. I do.

8 Q. Is it your understanding that that

9 reflects there was a name change to the name on

10 this birth record?

11 A. That's correct.

12 Q. And so that's what you're referring

13 to when you said that you had a name change on

14 your birth certificate and you posted it on

15 your profile, right?

16 MS. INGELHART: Objection.

17 Misstates prior testimony. You can answer.

18 THE WITNESS: For the most part,

19 yes. I believe the picture that I posted only

20 showed the small section where it says my name,

21 date of birth, and I'm not sure if I had the

22 sex section there or not.

23 Q. All right. So at least at this

24 time, your recollection as to what you posted

25 on Facebook was just a small section of the

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1 birth certificate showing your name and your

2 date of birth, correct?

3 A. That's correct.

4 Q. And as far as you know, you did not

5 post the sex category on the birth record,

6 which here indicates male, correct?

7 A. I can't recall if I did or not.

8 Q. Is that information that you can

9 find out?

10 A. I could attempt to if it's still

11 there.

12 Q. And was this done before or after

13 you made your profile public -- or, sorry, made

14 your profile private on Facebook?

15 A. It would have -- I'm not sure. It

16 would most likely have still been public then.

17 Q. Okay. So you think at some point

18 in time, you publicly posted a partial picture

19 of your birth certificate and it may or may not

20 have included the sex identifier as indicated

21 on Exhibit 7; is that accurate?

22 MS. INGELHART: Objection.

23 Misstates prior testimony. You can answer.

24 THE WITNESS: Can you repeat what

25 you just said?

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1 Q. Yeah. Let me try.

2 It's your testimony, then, that

3 during the time when your Facebook profile was

4 still public, you posted a partial picture of

5 your birth record, which, among other things,

6 may have revealed the sex identifier as male,

7 which is indicated on Exhibit 7; is that

8 accurate?

9 MS. INGELHART: Objection.

10 Misstates prior testimony. It's also compound.

11 You can answer, if you can.

12 THE WITNESS: I believe so.

13 MR. BLAKE: And I would just note

14 for the record that to the extent it's possible

15 for Ms. Breda to verify the photo she posted

16 publicly, we would just like confirmation one

17 way or the other whether that photo included

18 the sex information recorded on Exhibit 7.

19 MS. INGELHART: Noted. We will

20 inquire. Thank you.

21 MR. BLAKE: No. Thank you.

22 Q. I know before you said you weren't

23 currently involved in any transgender groups,

24 but have you ever been involved in any groups

25 that are focused on transgender issues or

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1 anything of that nature?

2 A. That's why I asked you before about

3 what do you mean by "groups"? I'm on a few

4 sub-Reddits, but I don't know if that would

5 fall under "group." Otherwise, no.

6 Q. I guess I don't know until I look.

7 I'm -- I'm happy to hear that people born in

8 the '90s still find Reddit useful, but what are

9 the sub-Reddits that you're involved in?

10 A. A couple trans positive. I don't

11 really say anything, I just, like, read them.

12 Q. So are these groups that are open

13 to anybody or do you have to register, do you

14 know?

15 A. I don't recall.

16 Q. And when you post or, you know,

17 view these Reddits, sub-Reddits, is your -- is

18 anything identifying -- is there any

19 identifiable information about you that would

20 allow another user to track you down and know

21 who you are, or are you operating under an

22 alias like Valkyrieash or something like that?

23 A. Yeah. I operate under the alias.

24 Q. Here in Columbus, we have a

25 festival called the Pride festival. Are you

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1 familiar with the Pride festival?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. And my understanding, at least, of

4 the Pride festival here in Columbus is that

5 it's a celebration of LGBTQ issues and people,

6 and part of the LGBTQ is transgender. Is that

7 your understanding?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. Have you ever participated in the

10 Columbus Pride festival?

11 A. Unfortunately, I haven't

12 participated in any Pride festivals yet.

13 Q. So have you heard of Phoenix Pride?

14 A. I have, yes.

15 Q. Is it -- is it your intent to one

16 day take -- participate in the festival?

17 A. Potentially, maybe. I don't know.

18 Q. No plans as of today?

19 A. That's correct.

20 Q. Okay. Well, whether or not you

21 attend any of the Pride festivals around the

22 country, including Phoenix Pride festival, your

23 status as a transgendered person does not

24 humiliate you, right?

25 MS. INGELHART: Objection. Vague.

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1 THE WITNESS: Well, I don't like my

2 friends knowing about it, but it feels unsafe

3 to have strange people that don't know about

4 it. I don't know what their opinions are on

5 it. I don't know if I will face violence from

6 them because of it.

7 Q. It's not something you're ashamed

8 of, right?

9 A. No.

10 Q. You're proud of your status as a

11 transgendered individual, right?

12 A. I wouldn't say I'm fully proud of

13 it. I'd rather just be seen as a woman, but I

14 do accept it.

15 Q. I mean, that's why you advertise it

16 on your Facebook page, which is, to some

17 degree, available to the public, and why you

18 advertise it on your Twitter feed, which is

19 certainly available to the public, because

20 you're proud of it, right?

21 MS. INGELHART: Objection.

22 Misstates prior testimony, but you can answer.

23 THE WITNESS: I mean, I put it

24 there, but I wouldn't necessarily say I'm proud

25 of it, but I'm not unproud of it, if that makes

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1 sense.

2 Q. Your profile pic on your Facebook

3 page includes you on what appears to be a pen

4 or a sticker which says: Trans rights are

5 human rights. I mean, that's a statement that

6 you're proud of, right?

7 A. Well, trans rights are human

8 rights.

9 Q. Of course they are, but this is

10 something that you, espouse as of you, which is

11 something that you advertise to the public and

12 to the community that is part of your identity

13 and something which makes you proud and unique,

14 right?

15 MS. INGELHART: Objection.

16 Misstates prior testimony, but you can answer.

17 THE WITNESS: I'm vocal about trans

18 rights because I don't think it's right that we

19 get discriminated against. I wish we could

20 just be seen as women that we are.

21 Q. So part of your claim in your

22 complaint is that the Department of Health

23 discriminates against transgendered people

24 because they're not permitted to change the sex

25 identifier on their birth certificate, right?

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1 A. Yes.

2 Q. Are you aware of any laws in Ohio

3 related to birth certificates that mention

4 transgender individuals?

5 MS. INGELHART: Objection. Calls

6 for a legal conclusion. You can answer.

7 THE WITNESS: I'm not sure.

8 Q. You're not aware of any such laws?

9 MS. INGELHART: Same objection.

10 You can answer.

11 THE WITNESS: Yeah. I haven't -- I

12 haven't kept up to date with them because I'm

13 not in Ohio right now.

14 Q. Well, before you left for Ohio,

15 were you aware of any laws that dealt with

16 transgendered individuals, and in particular

17 related to their birth certificates?

18 MS. INGELHART: Objection. Calls

19 for a legal conclusion. You can answer.

20 THE WITNESS: I don't know.

21 Q. You don't know if you were aware or

22 you don't know if there are any such laws?

23 A. I don't know if there are any such

24 laws.

25 Q. Do you know whether Ohio laws

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1 permit anyone, regardless of gender, change

2 their sex marker on their birth certificate?

3 MS. INGELHART: Objection. Calls

4 for a legal conclusion. You can answer.

5 THE WITNESS: I'm -- I don't know.

6 Q. You don't know if anyone's

7 permitted to change their sex marker, or you

8 don't know of any laws?

9 MS. INGELHART: Objection. Calls

10 for a legal conclusion. You can answer.

11 THE WITNESS: I don't know if there

12 are any laws that do that. I'm sure there

13 might be, but I don't know for certain.

14 Q. Okay. It's your understanding that

15 ODH will not change a birth certificate based

16 on gender identity, right?

17 MS. INGELHART: Objection. Calls

18 for a legal conclusion. You can answer.

19 THE WITNESS: In my opinion, yes.

20 Q. And that that law applies whether a

21 person is transgender or cisgender or anything

22 else, right?

23 MS. INGELHART: Objection. Calls

24 for a legal conclusion. You can answer.

25 THE WITNESS: Can you repeat the

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1 question one more time?

2 Q. Sure. That the law, that ODH will

3 not change a birth certificate based on gender

4 identity applies whether a person is

5 transgendered or cisgender or anything else,

6 correct?

7 A. Well, there would be no reason for

8 cisgendered persons to change their birth

9 certificate 'cause they identify correctly with

10 it, so this would only be in regards to trans

11 people.

12 Q. That's --

13 A. I'm not 100 percent understanding

14 why you're saying it that way.

15 Q. I mean, that's your opinion that a

16 cisgendered person has no reason to change

17 their birth certificate or the sex identifier

18 on they are birth certificate, but at least

19 nothing you can think of, right?

20 A. Not that -- nothing that I can

21 think of at the moment.

22 Q. Do you know when Ohio's laws

23 related to birth certificates were enacted?

24 MS. INGELHART: Objection. Calls

25 for a legal, but go ahead.

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1 THE WITNESS: I don't. And can I

2 take another break?

3 MR. BLAKE: Sure. Yeah. Fine.

4 (Recess taken.)

5 Q. All right. So you're not aware of

6 anything related to the legislative process of

7 how any of Ohio's laws related to birth

8 certificates were enacted, right?

9 A. That's correct. That's why I have

10 my lawyer.

11 Q. And you're not aware of any

12 legislative purpose when Ohio's laws were

13 enacted related to any hatred or ill will

14 towards transgender people?

15 MS. INGELHART: Objection. Calls

16 for a legal conclusion. You can answer.

17 THE WITNESS: I have no idea. I

18 have no way of knowing that.

19 Q. All right. Let's turn back to

20 Exhibit 7, if you would. And as we said,

21 Exhibit 7 is a copy -- a copy of your

22 certification of birth. Do you know what a

23 public record is?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. What is your definition of a public

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1 record?

2 A. A record that's public.

3 Q. Yeah. I guess I deserve that.

4 Well, would you characterize your

5 birth certificate as a record that is public?

6 MS. INGELHART: Objection. Calls

7 for a legal conclusion. You can answer.

8 THE WITNESS: I don't know.

9 Q. Are you aware that anyone can go to

10 any county health department in Ohio, and as

11 long as they know your name and approximate

12 birth year, they can request your birth

13 certificate?

14 A. I was not aware of that.

15 Q. If that is, in fact, the procedure

16 for requesting a birth record, does that change

17 your opinion on whether or not a birth record

18 in Ohio is a public record?

19 A. I suppose.

20 Q. And in what way does it change your

21 opinion?

22 A. Well, my opinion would change from

23 I don't know to yes if what you're saying is

24 true because you just told me it was a public

25 record.

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1 Q. Thank you.

2 Your birth certificates sex is

3 male, right?

4 MS. INGELHART: Objection. Calls

5 for a legal conclusion. You can answer.

6 THE WITNESS: The birth certificate

7 does say male.

8 Q. And that information was recorded

9 by ODH based on information provided to ODH at

10 or near the time of your birth, correct?

11 A. Yes.

12 MS. INGELHART: Objection. Calls

13 for expert testimony. Legal conclusion.

14 Speculation. Foundation. You can answer.

15 THE WITNESS: As far as I'm aware

16 of, yes.

17 Q. You don't have any evidence to

18 contradict that your sex was recorded as male

19 by ODH based on information provided by anyone

20 else at or near the time of birth, right?

21 MS. INGELHART: Objection. Expert

22 testimony. Speculation.

23 THE WITNESS: I have no idea.

24 Q. Do you know who determined your sex

25 was male at the time of birth?

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1 MS. INGELHART: Objection. Calls

2 for speculation, expert testimony. You can

3 answer.

4 THE WITNESS: I would speculate the

5 doctor.

6 Q. Right. The medical provider

7 determined your sex as male at the time of your

8 birth, right?

9 MS. INGELHART: Objection. Calls

10 for expert testimony. You can answer.

11 THE WITNESS: I suppose.

12 Q. Let's go back to Exhibit 2, the

13 complaint, just so we can clear up any

14 confusion about what is being asked here. And

15 if you look at Paragraph 20, it says: A

16 person's gender marker on a birth certificate

17 is usually designated at birth based solely on

18 the appearance of external genitalia.

19 Do you see that?

20 A. I do.

21 Q. That would have been the medical

22 provider that would have relayed that

23 information to ODH, right?

24 MS. INGELHART: Objection. Calls

25 for expert testimony. You can answer.

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1 THE WITNESS: I don't know the

2 procedure in regards to that.

3 Q. Well, there was -- as far as you're

4 aware, there wasn't anyone from ODH present at

5 your birth, right?

6 A. I don't know.

7 Q. Your mom was there, presumably,

8 right?

9 A. I would assume so.

10 Q. Did she ever work for the Ohio

11 Department of Health?

12 A. I don't know.

13 Q. Okay. No evidence to suggest she

14 ever did, right?

15 A. As far as I'm aware.

16 Q. And there would have been a medical

17 provider there, maybe several, a doctor and

18 some nurses, right?

19 A. Yeah.

20 Q. All right. And is it your

21 understanding that those doctors and nurses do

22 not work for the Ohio Department of Health?

23 A. I don't know what jobs they may or

24 may not have had.

25 Q. Okay. So you don't know one way or

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1 the other whether the doctors or nurses who

2 attended your birth are employees of the

3 hospital where you were born or the Ohio

4 Department of Health?

5 A. That's correct. For all I know,

6 they could be both.

7 Q. Okay. But you don't have any

8 evidence to suggest that, right?

9 A. No.

10 Q. All right.

11 A. I would have no way of saying.

12 Q. Was there anyone else that you're

13 aware of present when you were born?

14 A. I have no idea.

15 Q. Okay. So you're not aware of

16 anyone else?

17 A. I'm sure my father was there.

18 Q. Okay. So was your father ever an

19 employee of the Ohio Department of Health?

20 A. No.

21 Q. Okay. To the best of your

22 knowledge, one of those individuals who was

23 present at the time of your birth would have

24 relayed information related to your birth to

25 the Department of Health, right?

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1 A. I don't know.

2 Q. So you don't know one way or the

3 other whether -- one of those individuals sent

4 the information or someone else. Is that what

5 your testimony is?

6 A. I don't know how it works.

7 Q. Okay. All right. I think I

8 understand. You're not sure how the

9 information was conveyed to ODH, but you're

10 not -- you're not testifying that someone from

11 ODH was literally in the birthing suite

12 recording biographical information about your

13 birth has it was happening, right?

14 A. Yeah. That's correct.

15 Q. And that the information that was

16 relayed to ODH was accurate at the time it was

17 relayed, right?

18 MS. INGELHART: Objection. Calls

19 for legal conclusion, expert testimony. You

20 can answer.

21 THE WITNESS: I don't know.

22 Q. All right. So let's look at your

23 birth record. All right. And setting aside

24 your name change, which we know was changed

25 because of the note at the bottom of the birth

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1 record, your date of birth, that information's

2 accurate, right?

3 A. Yeah.

4 Q. You were born ,

5 right?

6 A. As far as I know.

7 Q. And your birth place was Ohio, as

8 far as you know, right?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. And your mother's name was 

11 , right?

12 A. That's correct.

13 Q. Last name prior to first marriage

14 right?

15 A. That's correct.

16 Q. And she was born in New York,

17 right?

18 A. As far as I know.

19 Q. Your father, ,

20 is that information correct?

21 A. Yes, it is.

22 Q. Father's birth place, Pennsylvania,

23 right?

24 A. That's correct.

25 Q. And date record filed, you probably

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1 don't know one way or the other, but

2 May 25th, 1990, right?

3 A. As far as I'm aware. It says it on

4 the paper.

5 Q. Okay. And like all the other

6 information on this birth record, you would

7 agree that it was accurate for the medical

8 provider to report your sex as male on or about

9 right?

10 MS. INGELHART: Objection. Calls

11 for expert testimony. Legal conclusion. You

12 can answer.

13 THE WITNESS: As far as I know, I

14 don't know. s t y 

15 

16 Q. Do you have any information to

17 dispute the -- the sex designation of male as

18 of 

19 A. No.

20 MS. INGELHART: Objection. Calls

21 for a legal conclusion. Expert testimony.

22 Q. I'm sorry. Your answer was "no"?

23 A. As far as I'm aware, no.

24 Q. And you would also agree, then,

25 that your birth certificate accurately

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1 reflected your sex as reported at the time of

2 birth, right?

3 MS. INGELHART: Objection. Calls

4 for expert testimony. Legal conclusion.

5 Compound.

6 THE WITNESS: I suppose.

7 Q. I want you to take a close look at

8 your birth record. Does it include a gender

9 marker?

10 MS. INGELHART: Objection. Calls

11 for a legal conclusion, expert testimony. You

12 can answer.

13 THE WITNESS: In my personal

14 opinion, yes.

15 Q. Which entry indicates gender?

16 MS. INGELHART: Objection. Calls

17 for expert testimony and legal conclusion. You

18 can answer.

19 THE WITNESS: The one that says

20 "male."

21 Q. Yeah. So if you look to the left

22 of that, the word "sex" appears, right?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. It doesn't say "gender," does it?

25 A. I believe both of those are the

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1 same.

2 Q. Right. And as you testified

3 earlier, though, you're not an expert on the

4 distinction between sex and gender, correct?

5 A. That's correct.

6 Q. The term "gender identity" doesn't

7 appear anywhere on your birth record, does it?

8 A. The actual term, no.

9 Q. And could you please go to

10 Exhibit 3?

11 A. Okay.

12 Q. What you've just been handed is a

13 document which you may have never seen before

14 today, and that is a long form example of all

15 of the biological data and information which is

16 relayed to the Department of Health by the

17 medical providers at or near the birth of an

18 individual. Do you have that document in front

19 of you?

20 A. I do.

21 Q. I'm not going to ask you to

22 authenticate or -- or attest to the accuracy of

23 that document. It's not your document. You

24 can't do that, but I am going to ask you is

25 whether you can find in that multi-page

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1 document any reference to gender, gender

2 identity or anything involving gender.

3 MS. INGELHART: Objection. Calls

4 for a legal conclusion, expert testimony. You

5 can answer.

6 THE WITNESS: Well, let me take a

7 look at it.

8 Q. Take your time.

9 A. There's a lot of information here.

10 It'll just take me one moment.

11 Q. Yeah. Don't feel rushed. The

12 delays do not show up on the transcript, so you

13 can take your time. That's one of the

14 beautiful things about a deposition is that I

15 rustle around for papers and then when you read

16 it afterwards, you think I was just whipping

17 out these documents, but that's not the case.

18 A. Okay. Now that I've looked through

19 it, can you state your question once more?

20 Q. Yes. Does the Ohio Department of

21 Health long form contain any reference to the

22 terms "gender" or "gender identity"?

23 MS. INGELHART: Objection. Vague.

24 Legal conclusion. Calls for legal conclusion.

25 Calls for expert testimony. You can answer.

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1 THE WITNESS: It states "sex."

2 Like I stated before, I believe sex and gender

3 are the same.

4 Q. So just the Department's

5 recordation of the sex information is the only

6 thing which you contend relates to gender or

7 gender identity, right?

8 A. That's -- I saw it in my cursory

9 glance.

10 Q. And it doesn't -- it doesn't

11 contain, as far as you're aware, any specific

12 category for gender or gender identity, right?

13 MS. INGELHART: Objection. Calls

14 for a legal conclusion, expert testimony. You

15 can answer.

16 THE WITNESS: There's no category

17 that specifically states "gender."

18 Q. And you're not aware of any form or

19 records maintained by ODH that would track a

20 person's gender specifically or gender identity

21 specifically, correct?

22 MS. INGELHART: Objection. Calls

23 for a legal conclusion, expert testimony. You

24 can answer.

25 THE WITNESS: I'm not sure.

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1 Q. You're not sure if you're aware or

2 you're not sure if ODH actually tracks that

3 information?

4 A. I'm not sure if ODH tracks that

5 information.

6 Q. And your gender identity is female,

7 right?

8 A. That's correct.

9 Q. And you mentioned earlier that

10 

11 t e n u as far as

12 you're aware, right?

13 A. That's correct.

14 Q. And are you familiar with the term

15 "karyotype"?

16 A. Slightly.

17 Q. All right. If I told you that

18 someone had XX chromosomes, that would indicate

19 a sex as female, right?

20 MS. INGELHART: Objection. Calls

21 for expert testimony. You can answer.

22 THE WITNESS: I am not familiar

23 enough with genetics to know, but I believe in

24 most cases, yes.

25 Q. And that, conversely, someone with

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1 XY chromosomes would indicate sex is male,

2 right?

3 MS. INGELHART: Objection. Calls

4 for expert testimony. You can answer.

5 THE WITNESS: The same as my

6 previous statement, so I suppose, but I'm sure

7 that there's more exceptions to that than just

8 that being that simple.

9 Q. Right. And as you've indicated,

10 there are various irregularities that can

11 result in a person having something other than

12 XX or XY chromosomes, right?

13 A. Uh-huh.

14 MS. INGELHART: I'm going to

15 objection. Expert testimony.

16 Q. That's your general understanding

17 of how the karyotypes of XX and XY work,

18 though, right?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Okay. 

21 e t d o 

22 

23 . t t I 

24 

25 

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1 s h d e 

2 MS. INGELHART: Objection. Calls

3 for expert testimony.

4 THE WITNESS: I'm sorry. Can you

5 say that one more time?

6 

7 

8 

9 

10 Q. And that you would have had --

11 whatever your chromosomes are, you would have

12 had those chromosomes since birth, right?

13 MS. INGELHART: I mean, objection.

14 Calls for expert testimony. You can answer.

15 THE WITNESS: As far as I'm aware.

16 Q. And you're not aware of any

17 procedure by which a person can change their

18 chromosomes, right?

19 MS. INGELHART: Same objection.

20 You can answer.

21 THE WITNESS: Not currently, no.

22 Q. All right. So you indicated that

23 your gender identity is female. Are you aware

24 of any method by which a person's gender

25 identity can be identified at the time of

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1 birth?

2 MS. INGELHART: Objection. Calls

3 for expert testimony, legal conclusion. You

4 can answer.

5 THE WITNESS: I am not sure.

6 Q. You're not sure that you're aware,

7 or you're not sure that there's a method by

8 which a person's gender identity can be

9 identified at the time of birth?

10 A. I'm not sure there's a method.

11 Q. And when did you determine that

12 your gender did not match your biological sex?

13 MS. INGELHART: Objection. Calls

14 for expert testimony. You can answer.

15 THE WITNESS: As far as I can

16 remember, going back to being a little child.

17 Q. Right. And, in fact, in your

18 response to discovery requests, I think your

19 response was since the age of 3 or 4, you

20 identified as a girl; is that accurate?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. What do you mean "identified as a

23 girl"?

24 A. I knew at even that age that I was

25 a girl, whether people would accept it or not.

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1 Q. So -- what is -- I suppose at the

2 age of three or four, you know, in your mind,

3 what distinguished that from identifying as a

4 boy?

5 A. I'm not sure how to answer that. I

6 just knew.

7 Q. You just had this internal sense of

8 being a female as opposed to a male; is that

9 accurate?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. But you can't exactly articulate

12 what that sense of identifying as a girl

13 actually is; is that correct?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. You know, from the age of three or

16 four when you first identified as a girl, have

17 you ever identified as a boy at any time in the

18 interim?

19 A. No.

20 Q. Have you ever presented yourself as

21 male to any friends, family or the public?

22 MS. INGELHART: Objection. Expert

23 testimony and vague.

24 THE WITNESS: I was supposed to

25 outwardly present myself by my parents.

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1 Q. Are you familiar with the terms

2 "gender dysphoria" and "gender incongruence"?

3 A. I'm familiar with the first term,

4 not the second one.

5 Q. Okay. So gender dysphoria, we'll

6 stick with that one. Is it your understanding

7 that that's a clinical diagnosis where a

8 person's biological sex does not match his or

9 her gender identity?

10 MS. INGELHART: Objection. Calls

11 for expert testimony.

12 THE WITNESS: I'm not 100 percent

13 certain.

14 Q. Well, you received that diagnosis

15 in the spring or summer of 2015, right?

16 A. That's correct.

17 Q. And you were approximately 23 or 24

18 or something like that?

19 A. Something like that.

20 Q. And before your diagnosis, had you

21 heard of gender dysphoria, or was that the

22 first time?

23 A. I had already heard of it.

24 Q. Okay. So you at least have some

25 understanding of what that diagnosis means,

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1 right?

2 A. Yeah, but it's worded differently

3 than you're wording it.

4 Q. I'm sorry. I didn't catch that.

5 A. Oh, no. I remember it being worded

6 differently than how you're wording it.

7 Q. Oh, I see. I see. You -- well,

8 how do you remember it being worded?

9 A. I don't remember exactly how it was

10 worded, but how you're saying it doesn't sound

11 like how I remember it being worded.

12 Q. Well, I guess regardless of how it

13 was worded at the time you received the

14 diagnosis, would you agree that a gender -- a

15 diagnosis of gender dysphoria includes a

16 mismatch of a person's biological sex and his

17 or her gender identity?

18 MS. INGELHART: Objection. Calls

19 for expert testimony. You can answer.

20 THE WITNESS: I suppose.

21 Q. And if your biological sex and

22 gender identity are mismatched, that logically

23 means that biological sex and gender identity

24 are different things, right?

25 MS. INGELHART: Objection. Calls

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1 for expert testimony. You can answer.

2 THE WITNESS: I suppose, but I do

3 believe they changed the definition and what it

4 is, but I don't know what they changed it to.

5 I know it was recent, though.

6 Q. Understood.

7 And do you know what -- when you

8 say they changed it or it was changed, do you

9 know what organization changed that definition?

10 MS. INGELHART: Objection. Expert

11 testimony. You can answer.

12 THE WITNESS: I don't remember off

13 the top of my head.

14 Q. Are there any websites or resources

15 you regularly consult that would discuss those

16 issues that you might have picked up that --

17 that change in the definition?

18 A. Various psychology websites,

19 Reddit.

20 Q. Okay. So when you say various --

21 sorry.

22 A. I said I forget which manual the

23 change was in.

24 Q. Okay. Does the W Path Manual sound

25 familiar?

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1 A. It does.

2 Q. Does the APA, does that ring a

3 bell?

4 A. No.

5 Q. Okay. Are there any others that

6 come to mind?

7 A. DSM.

8 Q. Could you spell that?

9 A. I think I'm -- I think I'm getting

10 it wrong, but I know it starts with a "D" and

11 it was an acronym.

12 Q. Oh, the DSM. Okay. Yeah, the DSM.

13 Yep. I'm familiar with that one. Anything

14 else?

15 A. Not that I can recall.

16 Q. All right. We talked earlier about

17 your state identification document, the one you

18 used in Arizona. Do you remember that

19 testimony?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. You've only recently moved to

22 Arizona, so I doubt you've had the chance to

23 update that document, but since you recently

24 applied for it, do you have any idea how often

25 you do have to update that document?

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1 A. I do.

2 Q. And how often do you have to update

3 it?

4 A. You don't. It's infinite.

5 Q. The state identification record in

6 Arizona is not required to be updated?

7 A. That's correct. That's why it's

8 not legally classified as a federal ID.

9 Q. Oh, so you could move and you

10 wouldn't have to change the address on the

11 state identification?

12 A. I'm sure you'd have to change the

13 address, but they never expire.

14 Q. They never expire. Understood.

15 Do you know what the -- do you

16 understand what the purpose is of that state

17 identification you received?

18 MS. INGELHART: Objection. Calls

19 for a legal conclusion. You can answer.

20 THE WITNESS: As far as I'm aware,

21 it's to identify me.

22 Q. And you use that identification

23 record to do things, like if you ever do this,

24 get into, like, an R rated movie, right?

25 A. I suppose. I've never been carded.

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1 Q. Okay. Do you -- and I don't want

2 to assume anything. Do you buy beer?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. And do you use that state

5 identification to buy beer?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. And would you use the state

8 identification to get into, like, an over 21

9 club or bar or something, right?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. And do you ever use it to -- well,

12 I guess for the next few years, you could still

13 use that to get onto a plane, right?

14 A. Yes. I don't remember when the

15 cutoff is.

16 Q. Yeah. I think it's --

17 A. But it does stop eventually.

18 Q. I think it's 2021, so you still

19 have some time, but just be prepared to bring

20 basically every biological piece of information

21 you have. It is the most horrendous process

22 invented, I think, so just make sure --

23 A. I'm aware.

24 Q. Save your utility bills.

25 A. I flew here.

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1 Q. You ever rent a car?

2 A. I don't drive.

3 Q. Oh, that's right. This is a state

4 identification, not a driver's license, so that

5 one doesn't work.

6 Verify credit card purchase?

7 A. I'm sure it can be used for that.

8 Q. Right. And you carry that around

9 with you pretty much at all times, right?

10 A. That's correct.

11 Q. You have that on you, your state

12 identification card?

13 A. Right now?

14 Q. Yeah.

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Now, I almost hesitate to ask

17 because I asked this to an earlier witness, so

18 everybody's up to speed on this, but you don't

19 happen to have a copy of your birth certificate

20 other than this exhibit I gave you earlier on

21 you, do you?

22 A. No.

23 Q. And you would agree that at least

24 as you go about your daily life, that the state

25 identification is a much different document and

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1 record than a birth certificate, right?

2 MS. INGELHART: Objection. Vague.

3 Calls for a legal conclusion. You can answer.

4 THE WITNESS: It depends what I'm

5 doing if I bring it with me or not. There's a

6 lot of things that require a birth certificate,

7 especially involving the government.

8 Q. All right.

9 A. Everything I need to do involves a

10 birth certificate.

11 Q. But you're not involved with the

12 government on a day-to-day basis like you are

13 in commerce or travel or buying a sixpack after

14 a hard day at work, right?

15 A. No. But for anything like

16 disability or food stamps or anything like

17 that, I do need to present it every time.

18 Q. Okay. Understood.

19 So then -- but you would agree that

20 the documents are used for different purposes

21 and at different frequencies, right?

22 A. At different frequencies, yes, but

23 they are both used for identification now.

24 Q. We're almost done, but I have to go

25 back to something that we talked about earlier

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1 because it's been bugging me. So we talked

2 extensively about some of the horrendous acts

3 that occurred at your employer, and I'm going

4 to try to pronounce the name right, Alorica; is

5 that right?

6 A. "Alorica."

7 Q. "Alorica." So we talked

8 extensively about some of the horrendous acts

9 that occurred while you were working at

10 Alorica. Did you ever talk to an attorney

11 about any of the actions or activities that

12 took place while you were employed there?

13 MS. INGELHART: Objection. To the

14 extent that it doesn't touch on attorney-client

15 privileged information, you can answer.

16 Q. Yeah. And let me specify: I'm not

17 interested in your talking to this counsel in

18 this case, what I really am interested in is

19 whether or not you ever went to an attorney to

20 say, "Hey, I'm being harassed and I don't think

21 this is right." That's all I'm interested in.

22 A. I believe I reached out to someone

23 online that was an attorney, but I don't

24 remember what the firm was, but they said I

25 couldn't do anything about it.

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1 Q. Okay. So you considered legal

2 action against Alorica at some point in time?

3 A. I did.

4 Q. Okay. And do you think what

5 Alorica did -- aside from harassing you and

6 discriminating against you, do you think that

7 anything they did violated your right to

8 privacy?

9 MS. INGELHART: Objection. Calls

10 for legal conclusion. You can answer.

11 THE WITNESS: I would say yes.

12 Q. And you understand that one of the

13 claims that you have in this lawsuit against

14 the Ohio Department of Health is that you

15 believe the Ohio Department of Health is

16 violating your right to privacy under the due

17 process clause of the United States

18 Constitution, right?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. But despite all the horrendous

21 things Alorica did to you, you haven't sued

22 your employer for a violation of your right to

23 privacy, right?

24 A. I have not.

25 Q. You haven't sued them at all, have

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1 you?

2 A. I have not.

3 Q. Other than the context that we've

4 discussed today about -- at Alorica and the

5 Arizona DMV, have you ever been required to

6 show your birth certificate to other entities?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. What are those other entities?

9 A. Every job I applied to when I came

10 here, which is over 30 of them, the Arizona

11 government, for disability and food stamps.

12 Q. Okay. Anyone else?

13 A. Not that I can think of at the

14 moment.

15 Q. Do you -- do you have any --

16 A. But I might be missing one.

17 Q. Okay. Well, if you recall it,

18 chime in.

19 But do you have any inclination or

20 idea why the jobs require you to present a

21 birth certificate when you apply?

22 A. Because they use it as a form of

23 identification to prove you're a U.S. citizen.

24 Q. So at least from the employer's

25 perspective, you would agree that it's

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1 important that those documents are accurate and

2 reflect information which can be verified and

3 traced, right?

4 MS. INGELHART: Objection.

5 Speculation. You can answer.

6 THE WITNESS: I suppose.

7 Q. And in these jobs, other than the

8 Alorica and the Arizona Department of Motor

9 Vehicles, in these other instances where you've

10 had to turn over your -- your birth certificate

11 or apply for disability or food stamps, did you

12 ever feel the individual or entity you were

13 disclosing your birth certificate to was

14 dangerous in any way?

15 MS. INGELHART: Objection. Vague.

16 THE WITNESS: Well, can you clarify

17 that?

18 Q. Sure. I'm just wondering whether,

19 you know, you walk into employer -- employer's

20 office and apply for a job and one of the

21 requirements is to display your birth

22 certificate, did you fear that you were going

23 to be harmed when you did that?

24 A. Well, I mean, that's always a fear.

25 Q. All right. So you -- you went into

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1 these jobs and you felt that this -- this

2 particular individual was going to be dangerous

3 for you to disclose your birth certificate to?

4 A. A few of them, yes.

5 Q. Which -- which ones?

6 A. There was a couple that I gave it

7 to that were wearing pieces of clothing that

8 made me understand that it could be a danger.

9 Q. So you -- you suspected or were

10 concerned about harm based on the items of

11 clothing that the person receiving your

12 application was wearing; is that accurate?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. And what were those articles of

15 clothing? Can you give me an example?

16 A. The best example I can give is a

17 "Make America Great Again" hat.

18 Q. Did that person say or do anything

19 to you to confirm your fear of being harmed?

20 A. I'm not sure how to answer that.

21 Can you repeat that?

22 Q. Sure. Yeah. I mean, you -- you

23 went into the place that -- the job, right, the

24 office to apply for the job, and this person

25 was wearing a Donald Trump campaign hat or

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Case: 2:18-cv-00272-MHW-CMV Doc #: 65 Filed: 01/14/20 Page: 119 of 129 PAGEID #: 2372
1 shirt or something, and you indicated that that

2 made you fearful to show them your birth

3 certificate, right?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. And what I'm asking is: After you

6 showed them your birth certificate, did they do

7 anything to confirm your fear of harm?

8 A. No.

9 Q. Okay. And have you ever been or

10 received bodily harm or anything like bodily

11 harm based on the disclosure of your birth

12 certificate?

13 A. No.

14 MR. BLAKE: I don't have any other

15 questions at this time.

16 MS. INGELHART: Thank you, Jake. I

17 don't think I have any questions.

18 (The deposition was concluded at

19 3:00 p.m.)

20

21

22

23

24

25

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1 Whereupon, counsel was requested to give

2 instruction regarding the witness's review of

3 the transcript pursuant to the Civil Rules.

4

5 SIGNATURE:

6 Transcript review was requested pursuant to the

7 applicable Rules of Civil Procedure.

8

9 TRANSCRIPT DELIVERY:

10 Counsel was requested to give instruction

11 regarding delivery date of transcript.

12 Mr. Blake original regular.

13 Ms. Ingelhart copy regular.

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

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Case: 2:18-cv-00272-MHW-CMV Doc #: 65 Filed: 01/14/20 Page: 121 of 129 PAGEID #: 2374
1 REPORTER'S CERTIFICATE

2 The State of Ohio, )

3 SS:

4 County of Fairfield. )

5

6 I, Kimberly A. Kaz, RPR, a Notary

7 Public within and for the State of Ohio, duly

8 commissioned and qualified, do hereby certify

9 that the within named witness, ASHLEY BREDA,

10 was by me first duly sworn to testify the

11 truth, the whole truth and nothing but the

12 truth in the cause aforesaid; that the

13 testimony then given by the above-referenced

14 witness was by me reduced to stenotypy in the

15 presence of said witness; afterwards

16 transcribed, and that the foregoing is a true

17 and correct transcription of the testimony so

18 given by the above-referenced witness.

19 I do further certify that this

20 deposition was taken at the time and place in

21 the foregoing caption specified and was

22 completed without adjournment.

23

24

25

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1 I do further certify that I am not

2 a relative, counsel or attorney for either

3 party, or otherwise interested in the event of

4 this action.

5 IN WITNESS WHEREOF, I have hereunto

6 set my hand and affixed my seal of office at

7 Cleveland, Ohio, on this 11th day of

8 September, 2019.

9

10

11

12

13 <%2319,Signature%>

14 Kimberly A. Kaz, RPR, Notary Public

15 within and for the State of Ohio

16

17 My commission expires March 31, 2023.

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

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Case: 2:18-cv-00272-MHW-CMV Doc #: 65 Filed: 01/14/20 Page: 123 of 129 PAGEID #: 2376
1 Veritext Legal Solutions

 1100 Superior Ave

2 Suite 1820

 Cleveland, Ohio 44114

3 Phone: 216-523-1313

4

September 11, 2019

5

To: Kara N. Ingelhart, Esq.

6

Case Name: Ray, Stacie, Et al. v. Director, Ohio Department Of Health,

7 Et Al.

8 Veritext Reference Number: 3493797

9 Witness: Ashley Breda Deposition Date: 8/21/2019

10

Dear Sir/Madam:

11

12 Enclosed please find a deposition transcript. Please have the witness

13 review the transcript and note any changes or corrections on the

14 included errata sheet, indicating the page, line number, change, and

15 the reason for the change. Have the witness’ signature notarized and

16 forward the completed page(s) back to us at the Production address

shown

17

above, or email to production-midwest@veritext.com.

18

19 If the errata is not returned within thirty days of your receipt of

20 this letter, the reading and signing will be deemed waived.

21

Sincerely,

22

Production Department

23

24

25 NO NOTARY REQUIRED IN CA

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Case: 2:18-cv-00272-MHW-CMV Doc #: 65 Filed: 01/14/20 Page: 124 of 129 PAGEID #: 2377
1 DEPOSITION REVIEW

 CERTIFICATION OF WITNESS

2

 ASSIGNMENT REFERENCE NO: 3493797

3 CASE NAME: Ray, Stacie, Et al. v. Director, Ohio Department Of

Health, Et Al.

 DATE OF DEPOSITION: 8/21/2019

4 WITNESS' NAME: Ashley Breda

5 In accordance with the Rules of Civil

 Procedure, I have read the entire transcript of

6 my testimony or it has been read to me.

7 I have made no changes to the testimony

 as transcribed by the court reporter.

8

 _______________ ________________________

9 Date Ashley Breda

10 Sworn to and subscribed before me, a

 Notary Public in and for the State and County,

11 the referenced witness did personally appear

 and acknowledge that:

12

 They have read the transcript;

13 They signed the foregoing Sworn

 Statement; and

14 Their execution of this Statement is of

 their free act and deed.

15

 I have affixed my name and official seal

16

 this ______ day of_____________________, 20____.

17

 ___________________________________

18 Notary Public

19 ___________________________________

 Commission Expiration Date

20

21

22

23

24

25

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Case: 2:18-cv-00272-MHW-CMV Doc #: 65 Filed: 01/14/20 Page: 125 of 129 PAGEID #: 2378
1 DEPOSITION REVIEW

 CERTIFICATION OF WITNESS

2

 ASSIGNMENT REFERENCE NO: 3493797

3 CASE NAME: Ray, Stacie, Et al. v. Director, Ohio Department Of

Health, Et Al.

 DATE OF DEPOSITION: 8/21/2019

4 WITNESS' NAME: Ashley Breda

5 In accordance with the Rules of Civil

 Procedure, I have read the entire transcript of

6 my testimony or it has been read to me.

7 I have listed my changes on the attached

 Errata Sheet, listing page and line numbers as

8 well as the reason(s) for the change(s).

9 I request that these changes be entered

 as part of the record of my testimony.

10

 I have executed the Errata Sheet, as well

11 as this Certificate, and request and authorize

 that both be appended to the transcript of my

12 testimony and be incorporated therein.

13 _______________ ________________________

 Date Ashley Breda

14

 Sworn to and subscribed before me, a

15 Notary Public in and for the State and County,

 the referenced witness did personally appear

16 and acknowledge that:

17 They have read the transcript;

 They have listed all of their corrections

18 in the appended Errata Sheet;

 They signed the foregoing Sworn

19 Statement; and

 Their execution of this Statement is of

20 their free act and deed.

21 I have affixed my name and official seal

22 this ______ day of_____________________, 20____.

23 ___________________________________

 Notary Public

24

 ___________________________________

25 Commission Expiration Date

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Case: 2:18-cv-00272-MHW-CMV Doc #: 65 Filed: 01/14/20 Page: 126 of 129 PAGEID #: 2379
1 ERRATA SHEET

VERITEXT LEGAL SOLUTIONS MIDWEST

2 ASSIGNMENT NO: 3493797

3 PAGE/LINE(S) / CHANGE /REASON

4 ___________________________________________________

5 ___________________________________________________

6 ___________________________________________________

7 ___________________________________________________

8 ___________________________________________________

9 ___________________________________________________

10 ___________________________________________________

11 ___________________________________________________

12 ___________________________________________________

13 ___________________________________________________

14 ___________________________________________________

15 ___________________________________________________

16 ___________________________________________________

17 ___________________________________________________

18 ___________________________________________________

19

_______________ ________________________

20 Date Ashley Breda

21 SUBSCRIBED AND SWORN TO BEFORE ME THIS ________

22 DAY OF ________________________, 20______ .

23 ___________________________________

Notary Public

24

___________________________________

25 Commission Expiration Date

Page 127

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  MJLFTIPVMECFNJOE USBOTDSJQUJPOFSSPS 



CONFIDENTIAL

Case: 2:18-cv-00272-MHW-CMV Doc #: 65 Filed: 01/14/20 Page: 127 of 129 PAGEID #: 2380
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CONFIDENTIAL

Case: 2:18-cv-00272-MHW-CMV Doc #: 65 Filed: 01/14/20 Page: 128 of 129 PAGEID #: 2381
VERITEXT LEGAL SOLUTIONS 

COMPANY CERTIFICATE AND DISCLOSURE STATEMENT 

Veritext Legal Solutions represents that the 

foregoing transcript is a true, correct and complete 

transcript of the colloquies, questions and answers 

as submitted by the court reporter. Veritext Legal 

Solutions further represents that the attached 

exhibits, if any, are true, correct and complete 

documents as submitted by the court reporter and/or 

attorneys in relation to this deposition and that 

the documents were processed in accordance with 

our litigation support and production standards. 

Veritext Legal Solutions is committed to maintaining 

the confidentiality of client and witness information, 

in accordance with the regulations promulgated under 

the Health Insurance Portability and Accountability 

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amended, with respect to Personally Identifiable 

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Veritext Legal Solutions complies with all federal and 

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Inquiries about Veritext Legal Solutions' 

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