Confidential

TSG Reporting - Worldwide 877-702-9580

Page 1

1 S. Chabot

2 IN THE UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT

3 FOR THE SOUTHERN DISTRICT OF OHIO

4 CIVIL ACTION NO: 1:18-cv-00357-TSB-KNM-MHW

5 OHIO A. PHILIP RANDOLPH

6 INSTITUTE, et al.

7 Plaintiffs,

8 vs.

9 RYAN SMITH, Speaker of the Ohio

10 House of Representatives, et al.

11 Defendants.

12 _____________________________/

13 ***CONFIDENTIAL***

14 DEPOSITION OF STEVEN J. CHABOT

15 WASHINGTON, D.C.

16 Monday, December 3, 2018

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24 REPORTED BY: Ronda J. Thomas, RPR, CRR

25 Job No. 149790

Case: 1:18-cv-00357-TSB-KNM-MHW Doc #: 230-9 Filed: 02/20/19 Page: 1 of 152 PAGEID #:

12905
Confidential

TSG Reporting - Worldwide 877-702-9580

Page 2

1 S. Chabot

2

3

4

5

6 Monday, December 3, 2018

7 10:30 a.m.

8

9 The deposition of STEVEN J. CHABOT was

10 held on Monday, December 3, 2018 at the Law Offices

11 of Baker & Hostetler LLP, 1050 Connecticut Avenue,

12 N.W., Washington, D.C. 20036, before Ronda J.

13 Thomas, Registered Professional Reporter, Certified

14 Realtime Reporter and Notary Public of the District

15 of Columbia, and State of Maryland.

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

Case: 1:18-cv-00357-TSB-KNM-MHW Doc #: 230-9 Filed: 02/20/19 Page: 2 of 152 PAGEID #:

12906
Confidential

TSG Reporting - Worldwide 877-702-9580

Page 3

1 S. Chabot

2 APPEARANCES:

3 ON BEHALF OF PLAINTIFFS:

4 THERESA LEE, ESQUIRE

5 American Civil Liberties Union

6 125 Broad Street

7 New York, NY 10004

8

9 ON BEHALF OF LEGISLATIVE DEFENDANTS:

10 MICHAEL MCKNIGHT, ESQUIRE

11 (via telephone)

12 Ogletree, Deakins, Nash, Smoak & Stewart

13 4208 Six Forks Road

14 Raleigh, NC 27609

15

16 ON BEHALF OF THE INTERVENORS:

17 KATHERINE MCKNIGHT, ESQUIRE

18 Baker & Hostetler

19 1050 Connecticut Avenue, NW

20 Washington, DC 20036

21

22

23

24

25

Case: 1:18-cv-00357-TSB-KNM-MHW Doc #: 230-9 Filed: 02/20/19 Page: 3 of 152 PAGEID #:

12907
Confidential

TSG Reporting - Worldwide 877-702-9580

Page 4

1 S. Chabot

2 P R O C E E D I N G S

3 Whereupon,

4 STEVEN J. CHABOT,

5 called as a witness, having been first duly sworn to

6 tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the

7 truth, was examined and testified as follows:

8 EXAMINATION

9 BY MS. LEE:

10 Q Congressman, thank you. My name is Theresa

11 Lee. I'm an attorney for the plaintiffs in Ohio A.

12 Philip Randolph Institute versus Smith, a case in the

13 Southern District of Ohio in which you have intervened.

14 Also here today we have --

15 MS. MCKNIGHT: Yes, good morning. We have

16 Kate McKnight for Baker Hostetler on behalf of the

17 congressman.

18 MS. LEE: And on the phone?

19 MR. MCKNIGHT: Yes, ma'am. It's Michael

20 McKnight, attorney with Ogletree Deakins law firm in

21 Raleigh, North Carolina on behalf of the legislative

22 defendants.

23 BY MS. LEE:

24 Q Congressman, could you please state your

25 full name and residential address for the record?

Case: 1:18-cv-00357-TSB-KNM-MHW Doc #: 230-9 Filed: 02/20/19 Page: 4 of 152 PAGEID #:

12908
Confidential

TSG Reporting - Worldwide 877-702-9580

Page 5

1 S. Chabot

2 A Steven, with a V, J. Chabot, C-H-A-B-O-T.

3 3025 Daytona Avenue, Cincinnati, Ohio 45211.

4 Q You've just been sworn in. Do you

5 understand that you're testifying under oath here

6 today?

7 A Yes.

8 Q And do you understand that the oath you've

9 sworn to is the same as if you were testifying in a

10 court of law?

11 A Yes.

12 Q Have you ever been deposed before?

13 A I don't remember. I've deposed other

14 people.

15 Q Okay. Do you recall if you've ever

16 testified under oath before?

17 A I don't remember to be honest with you.

18 Q That's fine.

19 A I put a lot of other people under oath when

20 they've testified in courtrooms. I've had civil trials

21 and criminal trials and other things.

22 Q Understood. I would like to go over a few

23 ground rules with you for today to ensure that

24 everyone's on the same page.

25 Please make sure you give a verbal response

Case: 1:18-cv-00357-TSB-KNM-MHW Doc #: 230-9 Filed: 02/20/19 Page: 5 of 152 PAGEID #:

12909
Confidential

TSG Reporting - Worldwide 877-702-9580

Page 6

1 S. Chabot

2 to each question as opposed to nodding your head or any

3 gestures that obviously we have a court reporter here

4 with us today, just so we can ensure that she can take

5 down all of your response.

6 A Okay.

7 Q Also, to make her life a bit easier and a

8 clear record for all of us, let's do our best not to

9 speak over one another. Please wait until I finish

10 asking the question, even if you think you know where

11 I'm headed, before giving your answer.

12 Can you agree to that?

13 A Yes.

14 Q Great. I will try to do the same. I'll

15 try not to begin the next question until you have

16 finished speaking as well.

17 A Okay.

18 Q If you don't hear what I've asked, please

19 just say so and I'll be happy to repeat myself. If you

20 don't understand a question or even any part of a

21 question, please say so and I'll rephrase. Can you

22 agree to that?

23 A Yes.

24 Q And is it fair that if you do answer a

25 question I can take that to mean you understood what

Case: 1:18-cv-00357-TSB-KNM-MHW Doc #: 230-9 Filed: 02/20/19 Page: 6 of 152 PAGEID #:

12910
Confidential

TSG Reporting - Worldwide 877-702-9580

Page 7

1 S. Chabot

2 I've asked?

3 A Yes.

4 Q And if at any time you need a break, please

5 just say so. I will ask that if I have a question open

6 you answer it first and then take a break right after.

7 Can you agree to that?

8 A Yes.

9 Q And if at any time you need to consult with

10 your attorney regarding the disclosure of potentially

11 privileged information, please just state that's the

12 reason and we can take a break for you to consult with

13 her. Can you agree to that as well?

14 A Yes.

15 Q Great. And your attorney or attorneys for

16 defendants, though he's on mute, so perhaps not, might

17 object at some point to a question I asked. Even if

18 they object, you should still answer the question

19 unless Kate directs you not to answer. Do you

20 understand that?

21 A Yes.

22 Q And is there anything that would prevent

23 you from answering my questions honestly and fully

24 today?

25 A No.

Case: 1:18-cv-00357-TSB-KNM-MHW Doc #: 230-9 Filed: 02/20/19 Page: 7 of 152 PAGEID #:

12911
Confidential

TSG Reporting - Worldwide 877-702-9580

Page 8

1 S. Chabot

2 Q And throughout this deposition I may refer

3 to the Ohio redistricting, the 2011 redistricting.

4 Unless I specify otherwise, I'm referring to the

5 redistricting for Ohio's congressional map that

6 occurred in 2011.

7 Do you understand that?

8 A Yes.

9 Q And also throughout I may refer to the

10 congressional map or just shorthand to the map, and

11 unless I specify otherwise, I'm referring to the map

12 that was put in place as a result of the 2011

13 congressional redistricting in Ohio.

14 Do you understand that as well?

15 A Yes.

16 Q Great. Did you do anything to prepare for

17 today's deposition?

18 A I met last Friday with Kate. I think we

19 met for the first time then.

20 Q Okay. Great. In addition to Kate, was

21 anyone else present in the room at the time?

22 A There was another attorney there at the

23 beginning of the meeting and he left.

24 Q Okay. Did you review any documents as part

25 of your preparation?

Case: 1:18-cv-00357-TSB-KNM-MHW Doc #: 230-9 Filed: 02/20/19 Page: 8 of 152 PAGEID #:

12912
Confidential

TSG Reporting - Worldwide 877-702-9580

Page 9

1 S. Chabot

2 A Nope.

3 Q Have you, prior to that preparation,

4 reviewed the complaint in this case?

5 A No.

6 Q And did you review the motion to intervene

7 that was filed on behalf of you, the other members of

8 the congressional delegation and other Ohio voters?

9 A No.

10 Q Did you review the Requests For Production

11 that were served on you through your counsel?

12 A No.

13 MS. LEE: I'd like to mark as Exhibit 1

14 this document here.

15 (Chabot Exhibit 1, Requests for Production

16 marked for identification as of this date)

17 Q And these are the Requests For Production

18 that plaintiffs served on you through your counsel.

19 You're not familiar with this document? You've not

20 seen it before?

21 A I know that it was served. I don't recall

22 how we got it. I've never sat down and read it.

23 Q Understood. Okay. And from communicating

24 with your counsel or communicating with staff members

25 who communicated with your counsel, as I know your

Case: 1:18-cv-00357-TSB-KNM-MHW Doc #: 230-9 Filed: 02/20/19 Page: 9 of 152 PAGEID #:

12913
Confidential

TSG Reporting - Worldwide 877-702-9580

Page 10

1 S. Chabot

2 schedule must be quite full to say the least, was it

3 your understanding that we were seeking documents

4 related to the 2011 redistricting and other issues

5 surrounding it?

6 A Could you define "we"?

7 Q The plaintiffs in this case?

8 A Yes.

9 Q And did you review any documents that were

10 going to be produced in response to these requests?

11 A Could you say that question again?

12 Q Did you review any documents that were

13 going to be produced in response to this request?

14 A When you say "review," did I sit down and

15 read documents or anything? I didn't do that. I know

16 there were things that we had to respond to.

17 I've got staff people that pretty much took

18 care of that for me and we talked about a few things,

19 but you also need to understand that the last couple of

20 months we had elections going on and my principal

21 focus, other than being the best Congress person I

22 could, representing my people, was to focus on the

23 campaign.

24 And so I knew this lawsuit was going on but

25 I didn't pay a lot of attention to it to be quite

Case: 1:18-cv-00357-TSB-KNM-MHW Doc #: 230-9 Filed: 02/20/19 Page: 10 of 152 PAGEID #:

12914
Confidential

TSG Reporting - Worldwide 877-702-9580

Page 11

1 S. Chabot

2 honest with you. So...

3 Q Okay.

4 A But I'm pretty -- I'm somewhat familiar

5 with what it's about and those types of things, but I

6 haven't devoted considerable brain power on this thing.

7 Q Okay. Understood. Absolutely. And who on

8 your staff did you understand to be sort of in charge

9 of dealing with these requests?

10 A Brian Griffith.

11 Q Okay.

12 A And Jamie Schwartz to a probably lesser

13 degree.

14 Q And are they members of your congressional

15 staff?

16 A Brian is now. Jamie was years ago. He now

17 has a consulting -- political consulting company. I

18 think it's called Fountain Square something.

19 And so our campaign has him and their

20 people on retainer. We have for quite a few years.

21 And so Jamie and Brian are the two most

22 familiar with what's going on here. Probably Brian

23 mostly because he's still on my official staff and he's

24 an attorney and Jamie is not.

25 Q Okay. Understood. What email addresses

Case: 1:18-cv-00357-TSB-KNM-MHW Doc #: 230-9 Filed: 02/20/19 Page: 11 of 152 PAGEID #:

12915
Confidential

TSG Reporting - Worldwide 877-702-9580

Page 12

1 S. Chabot

2 did you use in 2011?

3 A SteveChabot11@gmail.com.

4 Q Do you have an official congressional email

5 address?

6 A Yes, I think we do. If we do I never use

7 it. My staff uses that stuff but I really don't. I

8 think we have a campaign, too, but again I don't use

9 that.

10 Q So there may well be other email addresses

11 that are technically assigned to you, but you don't

12 send or receive emails with those addresses?

13 A Yes, that's correct.

14 Q Okay. Understood.

15 A For all I know there may be others, too,

16 that I don't know about. I'm not the most

17 technologically advanced. I'm 65 years old. My kids

18 understand this stuff but, you know.

19 Q Absolutely. I think I have some dead email

20 addresses still hanging out there myself.

21 A But the one I use is

22 SteveChabot11@gmail.com. That's the one I use.

23 Q Very good. Understood.

24 You've, at this point, run for office many

25 times.

Case: 1:18-cv-00357-TSB-KNM-MHW Doc #: 230-9 Filed: 02/20/19 Page: 12 of 152 PAGEID #:

12916
Confidential

TSG Reporting - Worldwide 877-702-9580

Page 13

1 S. Chabot

2 A Yes.

3 Q Have you in general used the same website

4 or the same set of servers across time that you've run

5 for office since 2010?

6 A Oh, since 2010?

7 Q Yes.

8 A I first ran for office in 1979 so but since

9 2010, yes, I think so.

10 Q Okay. Do you have a general practice

11 regarding how long you keep emails in your Steve Chabot

12 11 Gmail account?

13 A If we do, I'm not aware of it.

14 Q Does anyone else have access to that email

15 account?

16 A Many people have access to it, yes.

17 Q Does anyone ever send emails from that

18 account where you are not the sender of the email?

19 A I have no idea.

20 Q Okay.

21 A I wouldn't be surprised but I -- if they

22 didn't, I wouldn't be surprised with that either.

23 Q Okay. Understood. And who in general

24 would you say had access to that email account in 2011?

25 A Some of my staff. I don't know which ones.

Case: 1:18-cv-00357-TSB-KNM-MHW Doc #: 230-9 Filed: 02/20/19 Page: 13 of 152 PAGEID #:

12917
Confidential

TSG Reporting - Worldwide 877-702-9580

Page 14

1 S. Chabot

2 My wife, probably my kids, campaign people, lots of

3 people know about it because if you had a problem they

4 would come in and solve it. So there are other people

5 that do, yes.

6 Q Okay. Understood. And do you keep

7 electronic calenders of any kind, whether through

8 Outlook calender or Google or Apple have calenders?

9 A On my official staff Lisa is my scheduler

10 and she handles my schedule. So and it's partially

11 electronic and she gives me a hard card that I carry

12 around all the time. So I don't know if that answers

13 your question but...

14 Q It does.

15 A Yes.

16 Q You don't have then any other personal

17 calenders that you keep electronically; is that

18 correct?

19 A Not that I'm aware of, no.

20 Q And do you know if there's a general

21 practice for how long the content of those calenders is

22 kept and stored that your scheduler runs?

23 A No, I don't.

24 Q Who were the main members of your staff

25 that you interfaced with most directly or who carried

Case: 1:18-cv-00357-TSB-KNM-MHW Doc #: 230-9 Filed: 02/20/19 Page: 14 of 152 PAGEID #:

12918
Confidential

TSG Reporting - Worldwide 877-702-9580

Page 15

1 S. Chabot

2 out the most tasks for you in 2011?

3 A Could you rephrase that question or...

4 Q Who were the key members of your staff in

5 2011?

6 A Could you define staff, too? I have

7 official staff. I have campaign staff.

8 Q Well, let's break them out into two

9 separate questions then.

10 A Okay.

11 Q For your official congressional staff in

12 2011, who were the staff members?

13 A In 2011? I was just thinking of my chief

14 of staff but she wasn't my chief of staff in 2011. My

15 chief of staff in 2011 was Mark Wellman who is not my

16 chief of staff now.

17 Q Understood.

18 A He's a professor at the Naval Academy. But

19 he was my chief of staff then. Mike Cantwell was my

20 district director. But Mike's about as technologically

21 advanced as I am and he's even a month older than me.

22 He's 65. So he sort of heads up the Cincinnati office.

23 But Brian Griffith is the one who, in the

24 office who -- he's my attorney. He's the attorney on

25 staff there. He's important.

Case: 1:18-cv-00357-TSB-KNM-MHW Doc #: 230-9 Filed: 02/20/19 Page: 15 of 152 PAGEID #:

12919
Confidential

TSG Reporting - Worldwide 877-702-9580

Page 16

1 S. Chabot

2 You want me to go through my whole staff?

3 You said the primary?

4 Q The primary?

5 A Mike wouldn't know anything about this

6 stuff. Brian would be the main person. Lisa is my

7 scheduler. I don't remember if she was my scheduler

8 back then or not. Katy was. Not Katy (indicating) but

9 Katy was a different one.

10 Q And for Lisa and Katy, do you recall their

11 last names.

12 A I should. Katy's last name was Moore.

13 Lisa just got married a few months ago.

14 Q It's not a memory test.

15 A She's just my scheduler. I don't think

16 she's going to know the stuff either. I'm happy to try

17 to be helpful.

18 Q No, I'm trying to understand the universe

19 of people.

20 A I've got six or seven or eight people in my

21 Washington office.

22 Q Okay.

23 A My current chief of staff is Stacy Barton.

24 But she wasn't my chief of staff back then and she's

25 really not political. Doesn't handle this kind of

Case: 1:18-cv-00357-TSB-KNM-MHW Doc #: 230-9 Filed: 02/20/19 Page: 16 of 152 PAGEID #:

12920
Confidential

TSG Reporting - Worldwide 877-702-9580

Page 17

1 S. Chabot

2 stuff. I've got six, seven, eight. And we've got

3 interns.

4 I'm chairman of the House of Small Business

5 Committee and we've got another 18 people on staff

6 there.

7 My Cincinnati office and my Warren County

8 office we've got another half dozen or so. I don't

9 think you want me to go through the whole universe of

10 the people that were there.

11 Q No, no, no.

12 A Especially back in 2011. I'm not trying to

13 be difficult. Really not. I'm just trying to answer

14 your question.

15 Q No, absolutely understood. And I think it

16 sounds like you've described the primary staff members.

17 Mike Cantwell as the district director,

18 he's overall in charge of both the Cincinnati and the

19 Warren County offices?

20 A Yes. Mike told me he's retiring, though.

21 He's going to be retiring in a week to go deer hunting

22 and other fun stuff so...

23 Q And just confirming, Lisa your current

24 scheduler was not your 2011 scheduler?

25 A That's correct, she wasn't. Katy was, I

Case: 1:18-cv-00357-TSB-KNM-MHW Doc #: 230-9 Filed: 02/20/19 Page: 17 of 152 PAGEID #:

12921
Confidential

TSG Reporting - Worldwide 877-702-9580

Page 18

1 S. Chabot

2 think. I'm pretty sure she was. I don't know. I've

3 had so many folks over the years.

4 I've been in Congress 22 years and I first

5 ran in '79. That was over 40 years ago. I ran 21

6 times so far. I counted them up. That's how I know

7 that.

8 Q And Brian Griffith was also on your staff

9 in 2011; is that correct?

10 A He was. In fact, he might have been my

11 chief of staff at that time because he was chief of

12 staff for about six months in 2011. Then I hired Mark

13 Wellman and Mark Wellman was chief of staff and now

14 Stacy is but Brian may have been. But I'm not sure.

15 Q Understood. Did you ever send text

16 message, iMessages, BlackBerry messenger, depending on

17 what type of phone you had, with members of your staff?

18 Is that a way you communicate with them?

19 A Yes.

20 Q And have you had the same phone number for

21 your cell phone, smartphone since 2010?

22 A I don't know. I think so. Some of it has

23 been. I've got a lot of different phone numbers, too.

24 I'm trying to think if -- I'm not absolutely sure.

25 Q Okay. And do you have separate phones for

Case: 1:18-cv-00357-TSB-KNM-MHW Doc #: 230-9 Filed: 02/20/19 Page: 18 of 152 PAGEID #:

12922
Confidential

TSG Reporting - Worldwide 877-702-9580

Page 19

1 S. Chabot

2 your official congressional business, your personal

3 business and campaign business? Are those all separate

4 cell phones or cell phone numbers?

5 A I think so.

6 Q As to those three numbers, would you send

7 text messages from your official phone with members of

8 your staff?

9 A Could you repeat that question?

10 Q So the text messages or iMessages, whatever

11 type they are that you've communicated that way with

12 members of your staff, do you ever do that from your

13 official congressional cell phone?

14 A Yeah, that's -- the only text messages that

15 I send, I think, are 202, whatever the heck the number

16 is 225-9611, I think it is. And that's the way I send

17 texts on there.

18 Q And for a campaign phone or a personal

19 phone, you don't ever send text messages from that

20 phone to members of your staff? Just --

21 A I don't know what you just said.

22 Q So the 202 number we've just discussed, is

23 that the only one of your phones that you use to send

24 text messages?

25 A That's the only one -- you told me not to

Case: 1:18-cv-00357-TSB-KNM-MHW Doc #: 230-9 Filed: 02/20/19 Page: 19 of 152 PAGEID #:

12923
Confidential

TSG Reporting - Worldwide 877-702-9580

Page 20

1 S. Chabot

2 interrupt you. I apologize.

3 Q That's okay.

4 A I think that's the only one I text on, I

5 think. I haven't texted before until relatively

6 recently. My kids used to laugh about that. Because I

7 used to email everything when I emailed. So...

8 Q Understood. Understood.

9 What type of paper files do you keep?

10 A What type of paper files do I keep? I

11 don't think I keep any paper files that I can think of

12 now.

13 Q Okay.

14 A I used to years ago when I -- I was a sole

15 practitioner for almost two decades. I had all kinds

16 of paper files then. But I don't think I have anything

17 like that anymore. And I stopped doing that 20 years

18 ago.

19 Q Okay.

20 A But now I can't think of any paper files

21 that I would keep. My -- my staff gives me papers

22 sometimes and will do something and then when I'm done

23 they go or my staff gets rid of them or whatever.

24 Q Okay.

25 A So I don't think I have anything like that

Case: 1:18-cv-00357-TSB-KNM-MHW Doc #: 230-9 Filed: 02/20/19 Page: 20 of 152 PAGEID #:

12924
Confidential

TSG Reporting - Worldwide 877-702-9580

Page 21

1 S. Chabot

2 anymore.

3 Q Okay. Understood. Do you ever take

4 handwritten notes?

5 A Yes.

6 Q Do you keep those?

7 A No.

8 Q Do you ever keep handouts or printouts that

9 you might receive at a meeting?

10 A I might keep something for a short period

11 of time until whatever it is I was preparing for is

12 over and then I wouldn't have them anymore.

13 Q Understood. Do you, separate from the

14 printout card that you mentioned that Lisa creates, do

15 you ever keep paper calenders or agendas otherwise?

16 A No.

17 Q And did you -- other than your solo

18 practitioner files, did you ever keep any other paper

19 files?

20 A I don't think so.

21 Q Okay. Are you aware if your staff has a

22 general practice regarding the papers they take from

23 you, whether they keep them or there's a certain

24 retention period?

25 A No.

Case: 1:18-cv-00357-TSB-KNM-MHW Doc #: 230-9 Filed: 02/20/19 Page: 21 of 152 PAGEID #:

12925
Confidential

TSG Reporting - Worldwide 877-702-9580

Page 22

1 S. Chabot

2 Q Do you know if your campaign has any,

3 across time, has had any retention policies?

4 A I don't know what they do.

5 Q Okay. With respect to the Request For

6 Production, do you know where Brian and -- I've now

7 forgot --

8 A Jamie.

9 Q -- and Jamie, where Brian and Jamie looked

10 to collect documents?

11 A Where they looked to collect documents?

12 Q Yes.

13 A I don't know how they did it.

14 Q So of the various types of documents that

15 I've been asking you about, you would not have any

16 knowledge of which type of documents, text messages,

17 emails or paper documents that Brian and Jamie looked

18 for; is that correct?

19 MS. MCKNIGHT: Objection as to form.

20 Let me take this moment, we've been

21 operating in these depositions under an agreement as

22 stipulation as to objections that all objections but

23 for the form objection are reserved.

24 Do I understand correctly that we're

25 operating under that same stipulation here?

Case: 1:18-cv-00357-TSB-KNM-MHW Doc #: 230-9 Filed: 02/20/19 Page: 22 of 152 PAGEID #:

12926
Confidential

TSG Reporting - Worldwide 877-702-9580

Page 23

1 S. Chabot

2 MS. LEE: Yes, we are.

3 THE WITNESS: Could you repeat the

4 question?

5 BY MS. LEE:

6 Q Do you have any knowledge of whether Brian

7 and Jamie sought to collect emails?

8 A Sought to collect emails? I don't know

9 exactly what that means.

10 Q Do you have any knowledge whether Brian and

11 Jamie searched your Gmail account for documents

12 responsive to these requests?

13 A My understanding is that they were working

14 with the attorneys to make sure that we complied with

15 everything here and that's all I really know --

16 Q Okay.

17 A -- is that they were working with these

18 folks and I'm referring to my attorney who's next to me

19 here. And that there were words that they wanted to

20 search and I don't remember what they were anymore but

21 that we were cooperating completely in that effort.

22 That's what I know.

23 Q Okay. Perfect. So to sort of put this set

24 of questions aside, as to any of the particulars of

25 that you wouldn't have knowledge; is that correct?

Case: 1:18-cv-00357-TSB-KNM-MHW Doc #: 230-9 Filed: 02/20/19 Page: 23 of 152 PAGEID #:

12927
Confidential

TSG Reporting - Worldwide 877-702-9580

Page 24

1 S. Chabot

2 A No, no. I do remember them talking about

3 some of the words and things that there were and I said

4 whatever they're asking, you know, let them have it,

5 give it to them. That's what they were doing. That's

6 all I know.

7 Q Okay. Do you keep any social media

8 accounts?

9 A Do I keep any social -- you're talking

10 about Facebook and stuff like that?

11 Q Facebook or Twitter?

12 A When you say keep them, we have that both

13 on our campaign website and we have that also on our

14 official website. So if that's what you mean by keep,

15 yes, we have that kind of stuff.

16 Q Do you know when in time you began for your

17 campaign having social media accounts?

18 A Now, when you say campaign, do you mean one

19 campaign in particular or ever?

20 Q The various campaigns you've had over time,

21 do you know what year you would have first begun --

22 A No.

23 Q -- having social media accounts?

24 A No, I don't know that. I know it's a lot

25 more important now than it used to be and I know we do

Case: 1:18-cv-00357-TSB-KNM-MHW Doc #: 230-9 Filed: 02/20/19 Page: 24 of 152 PAGEID #:

12928
Confidential

TSG Reporting - Worldwide 877-702-9580

Page 25

1 S. Chabot

2 it. But I don't really know when we started.

3 Q Okay. Understood. And would the same be

4 true for your official social media accounts? Do you

5 know when those began?

6 A The same is true that I don't know exactly

7 when it happened, yes.

8 Q Do you oversee the posting on -- on your

9 campaign social media accounts?

10 A I don't oversee it. I see it sometimes and

11 usually, you know, my people are working on that stuff.

12 Sometimes I'll get pictures to them. They have what's

13 called throwback Thursday and we have done those.

14 Oftentimes it's cute pictures of me when I was a little

15 kid and stuff like that. So I'm involved in that.

16 But typically what happens is people

17 nowadays use that and just like attack you viciously no

18 matter what you put up there, you know, and so we're

19 more careful about putting stuff up anymore online

20 because they just attack you. It's pretty vicious out

21 there now in the social media nowadays.

22 Q Do you or your staff ever reply to comments

23 on those social media accounts?

24 A I don't know if we do or not. I think

25 sometimes but usually you don't, I think, because when

Case: 1:18-cv-00357-TSB-KNM-MHW Doc #: 230-9 Filed: 02/20/19 Page: 25 of 152 PAGEID #:

12929
Confidential

TSG Reporting - Worldwide 877-702-9580

Page 26

1 S. Chabot

2 you do it can be this, why didn't you respond to mine

3 and so you end up in this endless -- so I don't think

4 we respond very often on social media, I don't think.

5 Q Understood. Do you know how it is

6 determined whether a post is going to be made on your

7 social media accounts?

8 A I do when I have something and I suggest.

9 Like, on Thanksgiving, I went on and found what I

10 thought was a nice thing. I said why don't we put this

11 up for Thanksgiving and, voila, there it was and it

12 worked. So, you know, sometimes I'm involved. I would

13 say most of the time probably not. But sometimes yes.

14 Q Do you or your staff ever answer direct

15 messages, those that are not posted publicly on the

16 wall but that are sent directly, there tends to be

17 messaging functions in both Twitter and Facebook?

18 A In my official office, when we get

19 information we respond to those kinds of things. If

20 somebody has a request or if they say that I'm for this

21 or that or I'm against this or that. In my official

22 office, you know, they handle those kinds of things.

23 It's part of my functioning as a member of Congress and

24 responding to things.

25 So I'm not sure if that's what you're

Case: 1:18-cv-00357-TSB-KNM-MHW Doc #: 230-9 Filed: 02/20/19 Page: 26 of 152 PAGEID #:

12930
Confidential

TSG Reporting - Worldwide 877-702-9580

Page 27

1 S. Chabot

2 asking, but if you are, we do respond to that kind of

3 stuff.

4 Q Yes, that's what I'm asking. Thank you.

5 A Okay.

6 Q Do you know if your campaign social media

7 also responds to direct messages that are sent?

8 A I don't know. But I think probably not as

9 much. But I'm not sure about that.

10 Q And is all of, as far as you know, the

11 content of your accounts publicly available, it's

12 outward facing?

13 MS. MCKNIGHT: Objection. Form.

14 A If you could repeat. I'm not even sure

15 what you're saying.

16 Q Do you know if all of the content of your

17 social media accounts is publicly available?

18 A I still don't know what you mean by that.

19 I'm sorry.

20 Q No. That's okay.

21 A Are you asking like on Facebook and stuff

22 if the people go on there, can the public see it? Is

23 that what you're asking me?

24 Q Yes. So there's no content that's kept

25 private or only open to a certain set of people?

Case: 1:18-cv-00357-TSB-KNM-MHW Doc #: 230-9 Filed: 02/20/19 Page: 27 of 152 PAGEID #:

12931
Confidential

TSG Reporting - Worldwide 877-702-9580

Page 28

1 S. Chabot

2 A As far as I know, that's correct, what

3 you're saying here. When it's up there, everybody can

4 see it, as far as I know.

5 Q So changing gears a little here. So you

6 first ran for Cincinnati city council as an independent

7 candidate in 1979; is that correct?

8 A Yes.

9 Q And then in 1983 you ran again for that

10 office as a Republican; is that correct?

11 A That's correct.

12 Q Why did you switch from being an

13 independent candidate to being a Republican?

14 A Because it's very difficult to win as an

15 independent. I found that out by coming in 16th out of

16 26 back in 1979. You had to be in the top nine and I

17 didn't make it.

18 Q Understood.

19 A Can I elaborate on this?

20 Q Please, go ahead.

21 A I had three -- I had run a pretty good race

22 as an independent and I had all three parties reached

23 out to me, Republicans reached out to me and the -- we

24 have a charter party in Cincinnati, which is kind of

25 like the reform party. So they reached out too.

Case: 1:18-cv-00357-TSB-KNM-MHW Doc #: 230-9 Filed: 02/20/19 Page: 28 of 152 PAGEID #:

12932
Confidential

TSG Reporting - Worldwide 877-702-9580

Page 29

1 S. Chabot

2 And the Democrat reached out to me, too.

3 They reached out to me and took me out for lunch and

4 they were trying to convince me to become a Democrat.

5 You know who that was? Jerry Springer. That's why I

6 wanted to elaborate a bit, Jerry Springer.

7 Q Was he the mayor at the time?

8 A I'm trying to think. Had he been mayor

9 already? I think he had been mayor. But anyway, I did

10 not become a Democrat. Not that I had anything against

11 Jerry, although he does contribute to my opponents,

12 maxes them out every year.

13 I think, gee whiz, Jerry. Sorry to go in

14 such detail there. I thought that was worth telling

15 you. Kind of an interesting story.

16 Q It's worth the story, exactly.

17 You were later elected to the city council?

18 A In '85, yes.

19 Q And did you hold any other elected

20 positions before you were elected to U.S. Congress?

21 A Besides city council?

22 Q Besides city council?

23 A Yes, I was a county commissioner, also.

24 Q Were you a county commissioner up until the

25 time you were first elected to Congress?

Case: 1:18-cv-00357-TSB-KNM-MHW Doc #: 230-9 Filed: 02/20/19 Page: 29 of 152 PAGEID #:

12933
Confidential

TSG Reporting - Worldwide 877-702-9580

Page 30

1 S. Chabot

2 A Yes.

3 Q And is it correct you were first elected in

4 1994?

5 A To Congress?

6 Q To Congress.

7 A I was elected in '94, yes.

8 Q And at that time you were representing also

9 the first district of Ohio; is that correct?

10 A It was called the first district of Ohio,

11 yes, and I still represent the first district.

12 Q Okay. Understood. Do you recall the shape

13 of your district when you were first elected in 1994?

14 A Vaguely in my mind. I have a hard time

15 drawing a map of it, but yeah.

16 Q And was that district wholly within

17 Hamilton County?

18 A It was at that time.

19 Q And as we've discussed, you've been holding

20 elected office since 1985 and you were elected to

21 Congress in 1994, assuming office in 1995. Is that all

22 correct?

23 A Yes, I think so.

24 Q And in each election that you've won,

25 you've done so as a Republican; is that correct?

Case: 1:18-cv-00357-TSB-KNM-MHW Doc #: 230-9 Filed: 02/20/19 Page: 30 of 152 PAGEID #:

12934
Confidential

TSG Reporting - Worldwide 877-702-9580

Page 31

1 S. Chabot

2 A Yes.

3 Q And as such, do you regularly communicate

4 with the leadership of the Ohio Republican Party?

5 A Could you define regularly and Republican

6 Party of Ohio? Do you mean Republicans --

7 Q We'll start at the top. There's an

8 organization known as the Ohio Republican Party; is

9 that correct?

10 A I think that's what they call themselves.

11 To be honest with you, I'm not absolutely sure. It is

12 the Ohio party and I guess it's the Ohio Republican

13 Party.

14 Q So there's generally someone who's the

15 official leader of that Republican Party?

16 A Yes, yes.

17 Q Have you ever communicated with that

18 individual?

19 A Yes.

20 Q Across time?

21 A Yes.

22 Q And how often would you say you've

23 communicated?

24 A You know, believe it or not, you may not

25 believe this, but she called me, not about this, but

Case: 1:18-cv-00357-TSB-KNM-MHW Doc #: 230-9 Filed: 02/20/19 Page: 31 of 152 PAGEID #:

12935
Confidential

TSG Reporting - Worldwide 877-702-9580

Page 32

1 S. Chabot

2 when I was in my car at the airport driving over here.

3 Her name is Jane Timken. She called me to say

4 congratulations for winning the election. That's kinda

5 nice.

6 We talked about how we lost seats here and

7 there and Aetna all that well. But I thought it was

8 nice she called.

9 She said she was going to be running again

10 for re-election to her position as head of the Ohio

11 Republican Party and so that's -- so you asked me if

12 I've talked to her, and I just talked to her on the way

13 over. And prior to that I hadn't talked to her since

14 before the election.

15 Q In 2011 did you communicate with the head

16 of the Ohio Republican Party?

17 A In 2011? I don't remember.

18 Q Okay.

19 A I don't remember who the head of the party

20 was at that time either really. Bob Bennett was for a

21 while. That was his name, Bob Bennett, and then others

22 have been so I don't know.

23 Q And do you communicate with the elected

24 leaders of the Ohio General Assembly?

25 A Sometimes but, yeah, sometimes.

Case: 1:18-cv-00357-TSB-KNM-MHW Doc #: 230-9 Filed: 02/20/19 Page: 32 of 152 PAGEID #:

12936
Confidential

TSG Reporting - Worldwide 877-702-9580

Page 33

1 S. Chabot

2 Q And do you recall communicating with any of

3 the members of the Ohio General Assembly in 2011?

4 A I don't have any recollection of it.

5 Q And have you communicated with the Governor

6 of Ohio?

7 A The current governor?

8 Q The current governor.

9 A I'm sure we've talked but I don't recall

10 when exactly. We served in Congress together here for

11 a number of terms.

12 Q And, of course, you're now a member of the

13 16 person congressional delegation from Ohio. Do you

14 regularly communicate with each of the other members of

15 the delegation?

16 A Yes.

17 Q And in 2011 you were a member of the then

18 18 person congressional delegation. At the time did

19 you regularly communicate with the members of that

20 delegation?

21 A Yes.

22 Q Would it be fair to say that you more

23 regularly communicate with the Republican members of

24 the delegation than with the Democratic members of the

25 delegation?

Case: 1:18-cv-00357-TSB-KNM-MHW Doc #: 230-9 Filed: 02/20/19 Page: 33 of 152 PAGEID #:

12937
Confidential

TSG Reporting - Worldwide 877-702-9580

Page 34

1 S. Chabot

2 A That would be fair, yeah. Although I do

3 communicate with the Democrats, too.

4 Q Understood. And do you communicate at all

5 with the leadership of the National Republican Party?

6 A That's even harder to define the National.

7 Because there's the NRCC and then there's -- what do

8 they call the other institution over there? But, I

9 mean, I communicate with people more on the NRCC than

10 the one that you mentioned.

11 Q Than the Republican National --

12 A That's the more presidential. I always get

13 that mixed up. But I think the one that's national has

14 more to do with the presidential races. And the NRCC

15 is what we do. And then there's the NRSC, National

16 Republican Senatorial Committee, and then there's a

17 DCCC for the Democrats.

18 Q And for the National Republican

19 Congressional Committee, the NRCC, what individuals do

20 you communicate with at the NRCC?

21 A Staff people mainly. And then members that

22 are involved in it one way or the other. So, I mean, I

23 don't know exactly how to answer your question.

24 Q Do you recall any specific communications

25 with individuals at the NRCC related to redistricting?

Case: 1:18-cv-00357-TSB-KNM-MHW Doc #: 230-9 Filed: 02/20/19 Page: 34 of 152 PAGEID #:

12938
Confidential

TSG Reporting - Worldwide 877-702-9580

Page 35

1 S. Chabot

2 A No.

3 Q And you, along with others, have intervened

4 in this case; is that correct?

5 A I think that's correct, yes. We're part --

6 yes, we did intervene.

7 MS. LEE: And I'm having marked as

8 Exhibit 2.

9 MS. MCKNIGHT: Off the record.

10 BY MS. LEE:

11 (Chabot Exhibit 2, Memorandum in Support of

12 Motion of Republican Congressional Delegation Ohio

13 Voters and Ohio Republican Party Organizing to

14 Intervene, marked for identification as of this date)

15 Q So I have handed you what has been marked

16 as Exhibit 2, the Memorandum in Support of Motion of

17 Republican Congressional Delegation Ohio Voters and

18 Ohio Republican Party Organizations to Intervene.

19 This was filed along with a cover motion

20 with the court in this case so that you and the others

21 could join the case as an intervenor.

22 Have you seen this document before?

23 A I'm aware that we intervened. I don't

24 think I've read the document but I was aware that it

25 occurred.

Case: 1:18-cv-00357-TSB-KNM-MHW Doc #: 230-9 Filed: 02/20/19 Page: 35 of 152 PAGEID #:

12939
Confidential

TSG Reporting - Worldwide 877-702-9580

Page 36

1 S. Chabot

2 Q Okay. And so do you understand that your

3 attorneys filed this document with the court on your

4 behalf?

5 A Yes.

6 Q And do you understand that in this document

7 your attorneys make statements on your behalf?

8 A Yes.

9 Q Could you please turn to page 3 of

10 Exhibit 2?

11 A Yes.

12 Q To the section just below the bold header

13 in the middle of the page reading Proposed Intervenors.

14 The first sentence reads: "The intervenor

15 applicants represent a diverse coalition of registered

16 voters, county political parties and congressional

17 representatives, all whose interests will be directly

18 impacted by the relief plaintiffs are pursuing in this

19 action."

20 Do you agree that you are included in this

21 statement as one of the congressional representatives?

22 A Yes.

23 Q The next paragraph begins referring to the

24 member intervenor applicants. Do you see that?

25 A Yes, I do see it.

Case: 1:18-cv-00357-TSB-KNM-MHW Doc #: 230-9 Filed: 02/20/19 Page: 36 of 152 PAGEID #:

12940
Confidential

TSG Reporting - Worldwide 877-702-9580

Page 37

1 S. Chabot

2 Q And these member intervenor applicants are

3 identified as incumbent representatives of Ohio's first

4 and the rest of the congressional districts. Do you

5 see that as well?

6 A I see that, yes.

7 Q And it is correct you're included within

8 the group of member intervenor applicants as the

9 incumbent representative of Ohio's first district?

10 A If that's the question, yes.

11 Q And in the next sentence: "These member

12 intervenor applicants are further defined." Still on

13 page 3 there. "They are all members of the Republican

14 Party, all registered voters in the district and all

15 intend to run for election as representative of those

16 districts in 2018 and 2020."

17 Do you agree that is correct?

18 A I agree that I intend to run in 2020. I

19 can't speak for all the other people that they're going

20 to run in 2020 and I actually haven't thought about

21 that much but -- I haven't said I'm not running.

22 Q Okay. Understood. And in the very next

23 sentence, you are personally identified there. Do you

24 see that?

25 A No. I don't know where you're pointing to.

Case: 1:18-cv-00357-TSB-KNM-MHW Doc #: 230-9 Filed: 02/20/19 Page: 37 of 152 PAGEID #:

12941
Confidential

TSG Reporting - Worldwide 877-702-9580

Page 38

1 S. Chabot

2 Q Sorry. Still on page 3?

3 A Three.

4 Q Just the third sentence of the last

5 paragraph on the page: "Representative Steve Chabot is

6 the member of the United States House of

7 Representatives for the Ohio 1 district."

8 A Yeah, I thought we had already referred to

9 that. So I thought there was something else you were

10 referring me to.

11 Q No, just --

12 A I do see that and that is me.

13 Q Great. Just that one.

14 A Yes.

15 Q Could you please turn with me now in the

16 same document to page 9?

17 A Yes.

18 Q In the second full paragraph on this page

19 that begins: "The member intervenor applicants." Do

20 you see that?

21 A Do I see that.

22 Q And it lists interests that you all have in

23 the district; is that correct?

24 A I'd have to read it. Do you want me to

25 take the time to read it?

Case: 1:18-cv-00357-TSB-KNM-MHW Doc #: 230-9 Filed: 02/20/19 Page: 38 of 152 PAGEID #:

12942
Confidential

TSG Reporting - Worldwide 877-702-9580

Page 39

1 S. Chabot

2 Q Sure.

3 A I'm not sure what it says. I believe you

4 but I haven't read it.

5 Q Yes.

6 (Witness reading.)

7 A Okay. I've read it now.

8 Q And it states that: "The member intervenor

9 applicants have a substantial interest in the subject

10 matter of this case as it involves the legality of the

11 district they were elected to represent." Is that

12 correct?

13 A It's correct that that's what it says. Is

14 that what you're asking?

15 Q Yeah.

16 A It does.

17 Q And do you agree with that statement?

18 A I think I do agree with that statement,

19 yes.

20 Q And in the very last sentence on this page

21 it says, the very last paragraph, excuse me, as

22 numerous courts have recognized --

23 A I'm sorry, I'm not following where you're

24 at.

25 Q Just the last paragraph.

Case: 1:18-cv-00357-TSB-KNM-MHW Doc #: 230-9 Filed: 02/20/19 Page: 39 of 152 PAGEID #:

12943
Confidential

TSG Reporting - Worldwide 877-702-9580

Page 40

1 S. Chabot

2 A You mean this one here (indicating)?

3 Q Yes. "As numerous courts have recognized

4 elected members from a challenged district may

5 intervene as a matter of right under Rule 24 due to

6 inter alia their personal interest in their office."

7 Do you think you have a personal interest

8 in your office?

9 A Apparently the attorneys who represent us

10 believe that we do and so I would -- it's hard for me

11 to answer that question from a legal perspective or

12 from any other perspective so I honestly don't know.

13 Q Okay. And so do you, from just a factual

14 perspective, think that you have a personal interest in

15 the first congressional district?

16 MS. MCKNIGHT: Objection.

17 A I think I've already answered the question.

18 I don't know. I think a court would have to determine

19 that.

20 Q Sure. And do you think you have -- do you

21 have any interest in where the lines were drawn

22 defining the district?

23 A Yes.

24 Q Okay. And what would that interest be?

25 A You say do we have any interest in how the

Case: 1:18-cv-00357-TSB-KNM-MHW Doc #: 230-9 Filed: 02/20/19 Page: 40 of 152 PAGEID #:

12944
Confidential

TSG Reporting - Worldwide 877-702-9580

Page 41

1 S. Chabot

2 lines are drawn?

3 Q Do you have an interest in how the lines

4 are drawn defining the first direct?

5 A Yes.

6 Q And what is that interest?

7 A Because it determines what people who are

8 in your district that you have the opportunity to

9 represent.

10 Q So another interest that is referenced,

11 still continuing on page 9, is an interest in continued

12 incumbency?

13 A I see it says that there.

14 Q Do you think you have an interest in

15 continued incumbency in your seat?

16 A I really don't know if we have an interest

17 in that or not. I think the court would have to

18 determine that. I guess it's being alleged here, so...

19 Q And prior to the time that a district is

20 drawn at each decennial redistricting, do you think the

21 incumbents have an interest in remaining incumbents?

22 A You're not referring to this anymore?

23 Q No, I'm not referring to this document.

24 A Could you repeat that?

25 Q At each decennial redistricting, do you

Case: 1:18-cv-00357-TSB-KNM-MHW Doc #: 230-9 Filed: 02/20/19 Page: 41 of 152 PAGEID #:

12945
Confidential

TSG Reporting - Worldwide 877-702-9580

Page 42

1 S. Chabot

2 think the incumbents who are in office under the

3 previous map have a continued interest in remaining in

4 office under the new map?

5 MS. MCKNIGHT: Objection. Form.

6 A I don't -- I don't know if we have an

7 interest in that or not. I think a court would have to

8 determine that.

9 Q Okay. So let's look further at the reasons

10 stated by your counsel for the personal interest of you

11 and the other congressional intervenors.

12 If you turn to page 11 of this document?

13 A (Witness complies.)

14 Q Beginning the second line from the top, it

15 states: "The member intervenor applicants have

16 invested considerable time and money building

17 coalitions of supporters in their districts, learning

18 their districts, serving the needs of their

19 constituents, raising and spending money on

20 electioneering activities among other activities."

21 Do you see that?

22 A I do see that.

23 Q Let's take some of these one at a time. Do

24 you agree that you have invested considerable time and

25 money building coalitions of supporters in your

Case: 1:18-cv-00357-TSB-KNM-MHW Doc #: 230-9 Filed: 02/20/19 Page: 42 of 152 PAGEID #:

12946
Confidential

TSG Reporting - Worldwide 877-702-9580

Page 43

1 S. Chabot

2 district?

3 A Yes.

4 Q Can you describe some of those activities?

5 A Well, I'm going to have to think about

6 that.

7 Q Okay.

8 A I will do that now. Well, coalitions are

9 groups of people that have some common interest and so

10 you interact as a member of Congress with those people

11 throughout your time in that district.

12 And relative to money, it's kinda vague to

13 me as to what they're referring to.

14 I assume they mean -- I don't know if they

15 mean you spent time running television commercials or

16 send out direct mail pieces through a campaign. Or if

17 they mean money that has been sent out in your official

18 office responding to their response and asking you

19 about something or letting you know what their point of

20 view is on an issue and you responding on that. Maybe

21 that's what it's meant.

22 But other than that, those are what I would

23 assume is meant by that.

24 Q And, in general, do you agree that it's

25 true that you've undertaken activities to build

Case: 1:18-cv-00357-TSB-KNM-MHW Doc #: 230-9 Filed: 02/20/19 Page: 43 of 152 PAGEID #:

12947
Confidential

TSG Reporting - Worldwide 877-702-9580

Page 44

1 S. Chabot

2 coalitions of supporters, specifically of you in

3 office?

4 A Well, there are people that support me and

5 don't support me and we spend the same resources in the

6 official office.

7 Q And have you undertaken any efforts within

8 your district with your constituents to build

9 coalition, coalitions with Democrats?

10 A We do with all constituents. We don't ask

11 them whether they're Democrats or Republicans. They're

12 in my district and they have some interest, whether

13 they're farmers or teachers or whatever they may be.

14 You know, it's something we wouldn't know necessarily

15 what they are, what their political background is.

16 Q And do you agree, referring back to the

17 same sentence, that you've invested time learning your

18 district?

19 A Yes.

20 Q And what have you done to undertake

21 learning your district?

22 MS. MCKNIGHT: Objection. Form.

23 You can answer.

24 A I'm in my district whenever I'm not in

25 Washington, unless I happen to be out of the country or

Case: 1:18-cv-00357-TSB-KNM-MHW Doc #: 230-9 Filed: 02/20/19 Page: 44 of 152 PAGEID #:

12948
Confidential

TSG Reporting - Worldwide 877-702-9580

Page 45

1 S. Chabot

2 something on congressional business or something like

3 that.

4 So I'm interacting with my people on a

5 regular basis and so I learn every day about the people

6 in my district and interact with them and handle the

7 issues and handle their -- their interactions with the

8 Federal Government in my official capacity. They have

9 a problem with Social Security, they have a problem

10 with Medicare or Social Security or Veteran's benefits

11 or whatever. So I'm interacting with them. Sometimes

12 it's through staff, but I'm learning in that process

13 all the time.

14 Q Would it be true that regardless of the

15 lines of your district you would learn from the

16 constituents that were in it in the same way that you

17 do now?

18 MS. MCKNIGHT: Objection.

19 A Everything except the last part in the same

20 way. I couldn't speculate as to how I would learn but

21 you certainly would interact with your constituents

22 however the lines were drawn and try to represent them

23 to the best of your ability.

24 Q And do you agree that you've invested, you

25 and obviously the members of your staff, have invested

Case: 1:18-cv-00357-TSB-KNM-MHW Doc #: 230-9 Filed: 02/20/19 Page: 45 of 152 PAGEID #:

12949
Confidential

TSG Reporting - Worldwide 877-702-9580

Page 46

1 S. Chabot

2 time serving the needs of your constituents?

3 A Yes.

4 Q And can you describe some of the

5 constituent services that you or your staff members

6 have undertaken?

7 A Yeah, it's some of the things that I just

8 mentioned. Constituent services. We interact on their

9 behalf with the Federal Government. It's all kinds of

10 parts of the Federal Government. They may call or they

11 may write us a letter. They may email us something

12 asking our help and then we take care of that matter

13 with the Federal Government on their behalf. That's

14 specifically constituent services.

15 Then they also want to tell us as their

16 representative in Congress, you know, when I vote they

17 want to tell me what they think about things. If

18 they're for or against something. Could be potential

19 legislation, they like it or they don't like it. So

20 that's another aspect that we interact with our

21 constituents.

22 I'll leave it there.

23 Q That sounds good. Do you always or members

24 of your staff always respond to requests for

25 constituent help?

Case: 1:18-cv-00357-TSB-KNM-MHW Doc #: 230-9 Filed: 02/20/19 Page: 46 of 152 PAGEID #:

12950
Confidential

TSG Reporting - Worldwide 877-702-9580

Page 47

1 S. Chabot

2 A Yes, unless something falls through the

3 cracks and sometimes it does. I'll run into somebody

4 on the street. They will say, "Hey, I sent a letter to

5 you and I never heard anything about."

6 I'll try to get their name and contact my

7 folks and say, "Hey, look into this."

8 I'm not saying that sometimes somebody

9 doesn't screw up because it does happen but it's not

10 supposed to. And I always tell them if they screw up,

11 the buck stops with me because it's my fault

12 ultimately. My staff forgets to do something it's on

13 me, as far as I'm concerned.

14 Q And if Democratic elected officials within

15 your district reach out to you or your office seeking

16 to serve the needs of your constituents, do you or your

17 office meet those requests that come through that third

18 party?

19 A Yes.

20 MS. MCKNIGHT: Objection. Form. Go ahead.

21 You may answer.

22 A Yes.

23 Q Then just returning to this sentence. Do

24 you also agree that you've invested considerable time

25 and money raising and spending money on electioneering

Case: 1:18-cv-00357-TSB-KNM-MHW Doc #: 230-9 Filed: 02/20/19 Page: 47 of 152 PAGEID #:

12951
Confidential

TSG Reporting - Worldwide 877-702-9580

Page 48

1 S. Chabot

2 activities within the district?

3 A Yes.

4 Q And can you describe these activities?

5 A Could you repeat the question? I just want

6 to make sure I answer exactly what you asked.

7 Q Sure. So you've invested time and money on

8 electioneering activities, is that true?

9 A Yeah.

10 Q And can you describe electioneering

11 activities that you've undertaken in your district?

12 MS. MCKNIGHT: Objection.

13 A I would assume what that means is sending

14 out literature pieces, going door to door, being

15 involved in debates, putting up yard signs. All those

16 types of things and you generally try to restrict them

17 as much as possible to your district so you're not

18 wasting time and effort into other parts of the state

19 that aren't in your district.

20 Like on television, you try to put them on

21 the stations -- that's where there's an overlap mostly

22 where you may not get in your district. Because I'm in

23 the corner of the state and you run the TV ad and the

24 people in Kentucky can see it. I'd like to just be in

25 Ohio and you can't do that.

Case: 1:18-cv-00357-TSB-KNM-MHW Doc #: 230-9 Filed: 02/20/19 Page: 48 of 152 PAGEID #:

12952
Confidential

TSG Reporting - Worldwide 877-702-9580

Page 49

1 S. Chabot

2 But when you're sending out a direct mail

3 piece, it's much easier to limit it to your area. Or

4 if you're doing a town hall telephone meeting, although

5 that's not necessarily political, unless you run it

6 through your campaign, you can call phone numbers. You

7 know, they're in your district so you know that.

8 Those are the types of things that you can

9 do.

10 Q Okay. And on this same page, the last

11 sentence in that first paragraph it states: "In

12 addition there's a possibility that if a remedial plan

13 is ordered in this case, the remedial plan could pair

14 two or more of the member intervenor applicants in the

15 same district which would impede their ability to run

16 for their seats".

17 Is that correct?

18 A That's what it says.

19 Q And is that a concern that you have?

20 A I don't know that I've ever thought of that

21 before but I guess it would be a problem if they

22 redrew -- and it does happen where they put two in the

23 same district. They both can't win so...

24 Q And in the 2011 redistricting, was it

25 personally a concern of yours that you would be paired

Case: 1:18-cv-00357-TSB-KNM-MHW Doc #: 230-9 Filed: 02/20/19 Page: 49 of 152 PAGEID #:

12953
Confidential

TSG Reporting - Worldwide 877-702-9580

Page 50

1 S. Chabot

2 with another incumbent in the map?

3 A I don't recall.

4 Q And now with the loss of two seats going in

5 2011, that was absent some retirements, it was going to

6 happen that certain incumbent Congress people would be

7 paired; is that correct?

8 MS. MCKNIGHT: Objection.

9 A Just by mathematics that would be true

10 because there were 18 districts and then you were going

11 to have 16. So you would only have 16 members, but it

12 would depend on if there were retirements or whatever

13 so...

14 Q And at the time what did you think was a

15 solution for the needed pairing?

16 A What did I think the solution was?

17 Q Yes, if you thought of anything.

18 A I don't really recall having, you know, a

19 plan myself.

20 Q Sure. What did you think of the eventual

21 pairing of Representatives Turner and Austria?

22 A On a personal human level I felt kinda bad

23 for them. Especially Austria because he ultimately was

24 not in Congress as a result of that. And I felt bad

25 for Dennis Kucinich because the same thing happened to

Case: 1:18-cv-00357-TSB-KNM-MHW Doc #: 230-9 Filed: 02/20/19 Page: 50 of 152 PAGEID #:

12954
Confidential

TSG Reporting - Worldwide 877-702-9580

Page 51

1 S. Chabot

2 him, too.

3 Q Other than on a personal level, did you

4 think anything of the pairing of Representatives Turner

5 and Austria?

6 A No, it was personal. I mean, I knew them

7 both and I like them both and I liked Dennis Kucinich

8 and I'm trying to remember -- oh, it was Marcy Kaptur.

9 She won and Dennis didn't and he was a friend. I liked

10 him.

11 Q When did you become aware of the pairing of

12 Representatives Turner and Austria in the process?

13 A I don't remember.

14 Q Did you have any understanding why it was

15 decided upon that Representatives Turner and Austria

16 would be paired?

17 A No.

18 Q Other than what you've just said about

19 Representative Kucinich, did you think anything else of

20 the pairing of Representatives Kaptur and Kucinich at

21 the time?

22 A I just felt bad that one of them would lose

23 because I know them both and they're both good people.

24 Q Do you have any recollection of when you

25 became aware of that pairing?

Case: 1:18-cv-00357-TSB-KNM-MHW Doc #: 230-9 Filed: 02/20/19 Page: 51 of 152 PAGEID #:

12955
Confidential

TSG Reporting - Worldwide 877-702-9580

Page 52

1 S. Chabot

2 A No.

3 Q At the time would you agree that there were

4 many more representative, yourself even included, who

5 were geographically much closer to each other than

6 Representatives Kaptur and Kucinich?

7 A I don't know what that -- could you repeat

8 that?

9 Q Were you aware that there were many more

10 representatives of the 18 person delegation at the time

11 who were geographically located much closer to each

12 other?

13 A No, I had no idea where any of them lived.

14 Q Okay. What was your understanding of why

15 it was decided upon that Representative Kaptur and

16 Kucinich would be paired?

17 A I don't know.

18 Q What did you think at the time of the

19 pairing of Representatives Sutton and Renacci?

20 A Were they paired, too?

21 Q They were paired as well.

22 A I didn't remember that. I didn't think

23 much of it. It's Renacci by the way.

24 Q Oh, okay.

25 A Everybody mispronounces his name. One of

Case: 1:18-cv-00357-TSB-KNM-MHW Doc #: 230-9 Filed: 02/20/19 Page: 52 of 152 PAGEID #:

12956
Confidential

TSG Reporting - Worldwide 877-702-9580

Page 53

1 S. Chabot

2 the reasons he didn't win this year.

3 Q Maybe I should have known it from the two

4 Ns instead of two Cs.

5 A Trump mispronounces my name, as does Bush.

6 They all did.

7 Q Hopefully at least I've gotten that right

8 today.

9 (Laughter.)

10 So as you seem not to recall that, do you

11 then not have any recollection of what you thought of

12 that pairing in 2011?

13 A No. I don't. I don't have any

14 recollection.

15 Q And would you agree that with the

16 delegation going from 18 to 16 seats only two sets of

17 incumbents needed to be paired?

18 MS. MCKNIGHT: Objection.

19 A I just don't have any thoughts about that

20 really.

21 Q Okay. Did you have any understanding at

22 the time why instead three sets of incumbents were

23 paired in the 2011 redistricting?

24 A No, I forgotten it had happened to be

25 honest with you.

Case: 1:18-cv-00357-TSB-KNM-MHW Doc #: 230-9 Filed: 02/20/19 Page: 53 of 152 PAGEID #:

12957
Confidential

TSG Reporting - Worldwide 877-702-9580

Page 54

1 S. Chabot

2 MS. LEE: I am now having marked as

3 Exhibit 3 the Reply in Further Support of the Motion of

4 Republican Congressional Delegation Ohio Voters and

5 Republican Party Organizations to Intervene.

6 (Chabot Exhibit 3, Reply in Further Support

7 of the Motion of Republican Congressional Delegation

8 Ohio Voters and Republican Party Organizations to

9 Intervene marked for identification as of this date)

10 Q This was filed by your attorneys in further

11 support of your and the other members' requests to join

12 this case.

13 Much like the document we just reviewed in

14 Exhibit 2, in this document your attorneys are making

15 representations to the court on your behalf; is that

16 correct?

17 A I believe that is correct.

18 Q And can you please turn with me to page 5

19 of this exhibit?

20 A Yes.

21 Q And beginning four lines above the

22 footnote, it reads: "Members of Congress have ongoing

23 and working relationships with these constituents and

24 constituent groups who turn to members of Congress for

25 a variety of needs from ministerial to substantive

Case: 1:18-cv-00357-TSB-KNM-MHW Doc #: 230-9 Filed: 02/20/19 Page: 54 of 152 PAGEID #:

12958
Confidential

TSG Reporting - Worldwide 877-702-9580

Page 55

1 S. Chabot

2 lobbying."

3 Is that correct?

4 A It's correct that it says that.

5 Q Do you think this would include all of the

6 things you previously described with respect to

7 constituent services?

8 MS. MCKNIGHT: Object to form.

9 A I really don't know what you mean by that.

10 Q Do you believe that the content of the

11 sentence we've just read is true?

12 A Members of Congress had ongoing and working

13 relationship with --

14 (Witness reading.)

15 A Yes, I think that's probably true.

16 Q And in the first district, can you give

17 examples of ongoing and working relationships you have

18 with your constituents and constituent groups?

19 A With constituents, you know, you

20 oftentimes, for example, if it's a veteran's benefit

21 claim, they can go on literally for years and years or

22 you represent somebody on this matter and they come

23 back for a long time. That would be an example of an

24 individual that you, you know, have a relationship

25 with. And you have to relearn and they have to get to

Case: 1:18-cv-00357-TSB-KNM-MHW Doc #: 230-9 Filed: 02/20/19 Page: 55 of 152 PAGEID #:

12959
Confidential

TSG Reporting - Worldwide 877-702-9580

Page 56

1 S. Chabot

2 know the member of Congress's staff all over again if

3 you change things around on them.

4 As far as a group, we have lots of groups

5 that we have a relationship with and come in and meet

6 with us, you know, every year for a variety of things.

7 Just the different groups that come in so you get to

8 know the people and sometimes they're the same people

9 but then they have turnover like we all do.

10 But it helps to know who they are and you

11 have the issues and you have got a file from the last

12 time they were in.

13 So you have relationships that are ongoing.

14 And sometimes the issues are new and sometimes they're

15 not. But...

16 Q Do any of these constituent groups include

17 Democrats?

18 A Sure.

19 Q Are any of these constituent groups

20 specifically Democratic organizations?

21 A Not specifically Democratic organizations,

22 nor would they be Republican organizations either. I

23 mean, they're groups of people that you don't think if

24 they're Democrats and Republicans. When I say they're

25 Democrats, I don't know, and I assume that a whole lot

Case: 1:18-cv-00357-TSB-KNM-MHW Doc #: 230-9 Filed: 02/20/19 Page: 56 of 152 PAGEID #:

12960
Confidential

TSG Reporting - Worldwide 877-702-9580

Page 57

1 S. Chabot

2 are Democrats because we don't ask that question.

3 Q So is it correct then to say that it's not

4 specifically political groups that are ever meeting

5 with you?

6 A That's exactly right. Yeah, we wouldn't

7 have a Republican such-and-such come into my official

8 office and meet with us, nor would we have the Democrat

9 group come in and meet with us so it's just not

10 something that comes up.

11 Q Sure. And can you now turn with me to page

12 7 also in this exhibit?

13 A Yes.

14 Q In the first line, the first full sentence

15 at the top of the page, it says: "Doing their job well

16 requires unrelenting fundraising efforts that begin the

17 day they are elected to office and continue until they

18 step down or are voted out."

19 Is that correct?

20 MS. MCKNIGHT: Objection.

21 A It says unrelenting from the day they enter

22 the office. I don't know that I was out making phone

23 calls to raise money the day I was elected to office.

24 So I don't recall that myself. I can't speak for

25 others.

Case: 1:18-cv-00357-TSB-KNM-MHW Doc #: 230-9 Filed: 02/20/19 Page: 57 of 152 PAGEID #:

12961
Confidential

TSG Reporting - Worldwide 877-702-9580

Page 58

1 S. Chabot

2 Q Sure.

3 A It is something you do spend time raising

4 money. And you have -- the Democrats go over to the

5 Democratic campaign committee and the Republicans go to

6 the republican campaign committee. And they literally

7 have offices, little cubby holes in there where you

8 make phone calls for an event you have. Both sides do

9 it throughout the time. But I don't think I did it the

10 day I went in there. Probably the week I went in

11 there, maybe the month. But I'm not exactly sure.

12 Q Okay. Understood. And continuing in this

13 same paragraph the next sentence reads: "These

14 fundraising efforts would be wasted in district lines

15 were changed and a member was paired with another

16 incumbent or moved from a favorable to unfavorable

17 district."

18 Do you see that?

19 A I see that.

20 Q What is a favorable district?

21 A I can't answer that question.

22 Q Do you know what an unfavorable district

23 would be?

24 A Nope, can't answer that either.

25 Q So this sentence here, do you think that

Case: 1:18-cv-00357-TSB-KNM-MHW Doc #: 230-9 Filed: 02/20/19 Page: 58 of 152 PAGEID #:

12962
Confidential

TSG Reporting - Worldwide 877-702-9580

Page 59

1 S. Chabot

2 would apply then to you?

3 A I'm not sure exactly what they mean by

4 favorable and unfavorable. So I can't really venture

5 an opinion as to whether it applies to me.

6 Q Okay. Continuing on in this document,

7 could you please turn to page 10. In the second

8 paragraph under section B in the second sentence of

9 that paragraph, it says: "But plaintiffs ignore the

10 reality that redistricting is a zero sum game."

11 Do you see that sentence?

12 A I see that sentence.

13 Q Do you agree that redistricting is a zero

14 sum game?

15 MS. MCKNIGHT: Objection.

16 A I'm not sure exactly what they mean by that

17 either.

18 Q Okay. And turning from the document for

19 one moment. In intervening in this case your attorneys

20 have described how your and the other members'

21 interests are different than those of the defendants,

22 which include the leaders of the Ohio General Assembly

23 and also the Secretary of State of Ohio.

24 Before turning to those particular

25 differences, who's responsible for drawing the

Case: 1:18-cv-00357-TSB-KNM-MHW Doc #: 230-9 Filed: 02/20/19 Page: 59 of 152 PAGEID #:

12963
Confidential

TSG Reporting - Worldwide 877-702-9580

Page 60

1 S. Chabot

2 congressional map in Ohio?

3 MS. MCKNIGHT: Objection.

4 A As far as I know, the legislature is

5 responsible for that.

6 Q Okay. Do you agree that in general you

7 have a different interest in the congressional map than

8 the Ohio General Assembly?

9 MS. MCKNIGHT: Objection.

10 A That I have a different -- could you repeat

11 that again?

12 Q Do you have a different interest in the

13 Ohio congressional map than does the Ohio General

14 Assembly?

15 MS. MCKNIGHT: Objection.

16 A Well, I represent the people in that

17 district. I'm the only person that represents all of

18 those people in that district so it's different from

19 anybody. They represent different districts, for

20 example. So I think it's different to some degree so

21 yes.

22 Q Please turn with me to page 14 of the

23 document in front of you.

24 A Okay.

25 Q In the first paragraph it says, beginning

Case: 1:18-cv-00357-TSB-KNM-MHW Doc #: 230-9 Filed: 02/20/19 Page: 60 of 152 PAGEID #:

12964
Confidential

TSG Reporting - Worldwide 877-702-9580

Page 61

1 S. Chabot

2 in the second sentence there: "The governmental

3 defendants are not charged --

4 A Could you -- you've lost me. You said the

5 first paragraph?

6 Q The first paragraph.

7 A On page 14?

8 Q On page 14. The second sentence.

9 A But I'm --

10 Q The second sentence begins, "To the

11 contrary" --

12 A Yeah.

13 Q And then it says, "the governmental

14 defendants" --

15 A Okay.

16 Q -- "are not charged and should not be

17 charged with assisting the intervenor applicants in

18 maintaining any particular type or level of electoral

19 participation.

20 "They," referring to the governmental

21 defendants, "represent all citizens and even if they

22 take a view in defense of the law, their representation

23 of all Ohio citizens competing electoral interests,

24 including plaintiffs, does not adequately represent

25 intervenor applicants' particular interests."

Case: 1:18-cv-00357-TSB-KNM-MHW Doc #: 230-9 Filed: 02/20/19 Page: 61 of 152 PAGEID #:

12965
Confidential

TSG Reporting - Worldwide 877-702-9580

Page 62

1 S. Chabot

2 Do you see those two sentences?

3 A I see that it says that. I'm not sure

4 exactly what all that means.

5 Q Do you agree with the general proposition

6 that Ohio citizens have competing electoral interests

7 from each other?

8 A I don't really know the answer to that

9 question.

10 Q Okay. Do you agree that plaintiffs in this

11 case have certain interests?

12 MS. MCKNIGHT: Objection.

13 A And the plaintiffs are -- am I one of those

14 people?

15 Q No, you're the intervenor. The

16 plaintiffs --

17 A You're talking about the other groups.

18 What's the question again?

19 Q Do you agree that the plaintiffs have

20 particular electoral interests?

21 MS. MCKNIGHT: Objection.

22 A I mean, they filed a lawsuit, they're

23 parties to a complaint. So they have some interest in

24 something because they're in this suit so they have

25 some interest. I wouldn't venture to define what those

Case: 1:18-cv-00357-TSB-KNM-MHW Doc #: 230-9 Filed: 02/20/19 Page: 62 of 152 PAGEID #:

12966
Confidential

TSG Reporting - Worldwide 877-702-9580

Page 63

1 S. Chabot

2 interests are.

3 Q And we've earlier covered that you have a

4 personal interest in your district as the

5 representative of that district; is that correct?

6 MS. MCKNIGHT: Objection.

7 A I think we have some interest, yes.

8 Q Okay. And you also are an Ohio citizen and

9 a Ohio voter and you -- so you have certain personal

10 electoral interest as well; is that correct?

11 MS. MCKNIGHT: Objection.

12 A That would be true, yes.

13 Q And Linda Goldenhar, who's a plaintiff in

14 this case, is one of your constituents, lives in the

15 first district. And many of the Hamilton County Young

16 Democrats who are also plaintiffs in this case are

17 constituents who live in the first district.

18 Is your interest in the first district at

19 odds with theirs?

20 MS. MCKNIGHT: Objection.

21 A I don't have an answer to that. I'm not

22 quite sure what you mean by that. Is my interest at

23 odds with theirs? I'm sure we agree on some things and

24 we disagree on some things.

25 Q Okay. The Hamilton County Young Democrats

Case: 1:18-cv-00357-TSB-KNM-MHW Doc #: 230-9 Filed: 02/20/19 Page: 63 of 152 PAGEID #:

12967
Confidential

TSG Reporting - Worldwide 877-702-9580

Page 64

1 S. Chabot

2 are an organization aimed at supporting young democrats

3 and seeking the election of Democratic candidates. Do

4 you think it is true that their interests are different

5 than yours as a Republican elected official?

6 MS. MCKNIGHT: Objection.

7 A Again, I don't know the answer to that

8 question. I'm guessing if they're the Young Democrats

9 they probably don't vote for me too often. Maybe some

10 of them do, but I don't know.

11 Q So one of the interests we discussed that

12 was described by your attorney supporting intervention

13 in this case was fundraising that you have to

14 undertake; is that correct?

15 MS. MCKNIGHT: Objection.

16 A I think it is correct that that was talked

17 about.

18 Q Okay. Have you ever used the prospect of

19 redistricting in your fundraising efforts?

20 A I don't recall.

21 Q One of the sentences we just went over in

22 your papers supporting intervention stated that if the

23 lines of the districts were changed fundraising efforts

24 would be wasted. Do you think that's true?

25 MS. MCKNIGHT: Objection.

Case: 1:18-cv-00357-TSB-KNM-MHW Doc #: 230-9 Filed: 02/20/19 Page: 64 of 152 PAGEID #:

12968
Confidential

TSG Reporting - Worldwide 877-702-9580

Page 65

1 S. Chabot

2 A I don't know.

3 Q Do you primarily fundraise from

4 constituents within your district?

5 A I think that's accurate. I think we -- I

6 know we primarily fundraise. And I think most of what

7 we get is from within our district, I think. I

8 really -- I just don't know.

9 Q Who is Dick Farmer?

10 A Who is Dick Farmer? Dick Farmer was the

11 head of Cintas. I think he's retired. He may still be

12 involved.

13 Q Do you know where Cintas is located? Where

14 its headquarters are located?

15 A Yeah, they're off of 71 or 75, 71 in Warren

16 County.

17 Q Do you know where Dick Farmer lives?

18 A I think he's a resident of Florida now. He

19 may not be. I'm not sure where he maintains his

20 residence.

21 Q In 2011, do you know where Mr. Farmer

22 lived?

23 A No.

24 Q Prior to the 2011 redistricting, had you

25 ever communicated with Mr. Farmer?

Case: 1:18-cv-00357-TSB-KNM-MHW Doc #: 230-9 Filed: 02/20/19 Page: 65 of 152 PAGEID #:

12969
Confidential

TSG Reporting - Worldwide 877-702-9580

Page 66

1 S. Chabot

2 A Yes.

3 Q Do you recall what about?

4 A No. I mean, I've known Dick for, I don't

5 know, 30 years maybe.

6 MS. LEE: Let's look at an exhibit that I'm

7 having marked as Exhibit 4.

8 (Chabot Exhibit 4, Email String, marked for

9 identification as of this date)

10 Q This is a document we received from your

11 attorneys in this case, one of just a few documents

12 that was produced. Looking at this document, if you

13 look at sort of the earliest of the emails in the chain

14 it goes in reverse chronological order. You're writing

15 to Mr. Farmer or someone from your account is writing

16 to Mr. Farmer and it says: "I hope this email finds

17 you well. Do you have a few minutes" --

18 A I'm not sure where you're at. I see,

19 "Thank you very much."

20 Q The next one down, the chain is in reverse

21 chronological order, sort of mid page from Steve --

22 A I'm not sure where --

23 MS. MCKNIGHT: She's asking here.

24 A Where it says "I hope"?

25 Q Yes.

Case: 1:18-cv-00357-TSB-KNM-MHW Doc #: 230-9 Filed: 02/20/19 Page: 66 of 152 PAGEID #:

12970
Confidential

TSG Reporting - Worldwide 877-702-9580

Page 67

1 S. Chabot

2 A Gotcha.

3 Q In this email to Mr. Farmer, it says: "I

4 want to give you an update on redistricting now that it

5 is in full swing and we now have an idea of what the

6 maps could look like next year."

7 Do you see that?

8 A I do see it.

9 Q Is this one of the only times you've ever

10 communicated regarding redistricting?

11 MS. MCKNIGHT: Objection.

12 A I have no idea and I don't remember doing

13 this. My guess is probably somebody did this on my

14 behalf but...

15 Q Okay. And above it indicates Susan Towns.

16 Do you know who Ms. Towns is?

17 A I think she works for Cintas. I think she

18 may still work there. I'm not really sure. But she's

19 a person that works there.

20 Q And in this email, in response to the

21 original email that's indicated, you or whoever sent

22 it, wanted to give an update on redistricting.

23 Ms. Towns writes back to you, says: "Congressman

24 Chabot, Mr. Farmer asked me to get in touch with you

25 regarding your note below. He is out of the country

Case: 1:18-cv-00357-TSB-KNM-MHW Doc #: 230-9 Filed: 02/20/19 Page: 67 of 152 PAGEID #:

12971
Confidential

TSG Reporting - Worldwide 877-702-9580

Page 68

1 S. Chabot

2 until the middle of October. Per your conversation

3 with me last week, Mr. Farmer is sending a check for

4 $5,000 to your campaign prior to September 30th. I've

5 also shared with him the information regarding

6 redistricting. If there is anything further you need

7 to discuss with him prior to October 30th, please let

8 me know, and I will have Rick Roeding get in touch with

9 you on Mr. Farmer's behalf."

10 Do you know who Mr. Roeding is?

11 A I assume he works there but I'm not sure

12 who he is.

13 Q Do you recall if you spoke with Mr. Roeding

14 regarding redistricting?

15 A No.

16 Q Okay. Do you know if you eventually

17 communicated with Mr. Farmer regarding redistricting

18 when he returned to the country?

19 A I don't recall.

20 Q In this original email you sought to speak

21 with him on September 19th, 2011. This was before the

22 2011 redistricting plan was passed; is that correct?

23 A I don't know.

24 Q Do you know why you wanted to talk to him

25 about what the map would look like?

Case: 1:18-cv-00357-TSB-KNM-MHW Doc #: 230-9 Filed: 02/20/19 Page: 68 of 152 PAGEID #:

12972
Confidential

TSG Reporting - Worldwide 877-702-9580

Page 69

1 S. Chabot

2 A I don't remember. I mean, they're in

3 Warren County. They're located there. Other than

4 that, I don't know.

5 Q And Cintas is a very large company, it's in

6 the Fortune 1000; is that correct?

7 MS. MCKNIGHT: Objection.

8 A I don't know. I know they're a big

9 company. I have no idea the size.

10 Q Were you concerned with ensuring Cintas

11 Corporation was within your district?

12 MS. MCKNIGHT: Objection.

13 A Not that I recollect.

14 Q We can put that document to the side.

15 As we've discussed, you were first elected

16 to Congress in November 1994. Before you were in

17 Congress did you have any knowledge of the

18 redistricting process in Ohio?

19 A I don't know when I first knew that every

20 10 years after a census the lines were redrawn. But

21 I've had some knowledge about that maybe since high

22 school or college, but I'm not really sure.

23 Q Sure. And once you were in Congress, is it

24 fair to say that you took more of an interest in what

25 the congressional district lines were going to look

Case: 1:18-cv-00357-TSB-KNM-MHW Doc #: 230-9 Filed: 02/20/19 Page: 69 of 152 PAGEID #:

12973
Confidential

TSG Reporting - Worldwide 877-702-9580

Page 70

1 S. Chabot

2 like?

3 MS. MCKNIGHT: Objection.

4 A Since I was in Congress, that would be

5 accurate, yeah.

6 Q Following the 2000 census, did you have any

7 personal familiarity with the 2001 redistricting

8 process?

9 A Yes.

10 Q And what was that familiarity?

11 A The same, that -- that every 10 years the

12 lines are redrawn, so...

13 Q And do you know who the Ohio Senate

14 majority leader was in 2001?

15 A 2001, no.

16 Q And do you know which party was in the

17 majority in the Ohio Senate in 2001?

18 A I think the Republicans were, but I'm not

19 absolutely positive. I think they were.

20 Q And do you know which party was the

21 majority in the Ohio House in 2001?

22 A I think Republicans were as well.

23 Q Do you know who the governor of Ohio was in

24 2001?

25 A I think it was Bob Taft, I think.

Case: 1:18-cv-00357-TSB-KNM-MHW Doc #: 230-9 Filed: 02/20/19 Page: 70 of 152 PAGEID #:

12974
Confidential

TSG Reporting - Worldwide 877-702-9580

Page 71

1 S. Chabot

2 Q Do you know which political party he was

3 from?

4 A He's a Republican.

5 Q After the 2001 redistricting, the first

6 congressional district included a portion of Butler

7 County and a larger portion of Hamilton County; is that

8 correct?

9 MS. MCKNIGHT: Objection.

10 A It contained a portion -- you mean a larger

11 proportion of Hamilton County than Butler County?

12 Q Yes.

13 A Yes.

14 Q Okay.

15 A I didn't know if you meant a larger portion

16 then than it does now and that's what I was trying to

17 think because I'm not really sure but I see what you

18 mean.

19 Q Yes, okay. Great.

20 Could the entire first congressional

21 district have been within Hamilton County in the 2001

22 redistricting?

23 A I don't know.

24 Q And following the 2010 census, did you have

25 any personal familiarity with the 2011 redistricting

Case: 1:18-cv-00357-TSB-KNM-MHW Doc #: 230-9 Filed: 02/20/19 Page: 71 of 152 PAGEID #:

12975
Confidential

TSG Reporting - Worldwide 877-702-9580

Page 72

1 S. Chabot

2 process?

3 A Yes.

4 Q And what was that?

5 A When you say familiarity, I mean, that it

6 was happening. We were aware of it happening, yes.

7 Q And beyond the general that it was

8 occurring, did you have any familiarity with the

9 ongoing nature of that process, what was being

10 discussed?

11 MS. MCKNIGHT: Objection.

12 A Familiarity?

13 Q Yes.

14 A Yes, I had familiarity with it, yes.

15 Q And what do you recall being discussed

16 around that redistricting?

17 A What do I recall being discussed? I don't

18 recall specifically what was discussed, but I'm sure we

19 did discuss that type of thing.

20 Q Do you know who was the majority in the

21 Ohio Senate in 2011?

22 A Is it Keith Faber? I'm not sure. I think

23 it might have been him. He just got elected statewide

24 to a different office but I don't recall if he was then

25 or not. So I think he might have been but I'm not

Case: 1:18-cv-00357-TSB-KNM-MHW Doc #: 230-9 Filed: 02/20/19 Page: 72 of 152 PAGEID #:

12976
Confidential

TSG Reporting - Worldwide 877-702-9580

Page 73

1 S. Chabot

2 sure.

3 Q And just which political party was the

4 majority in the Ohio Senate?

5 A Republican.

6 Q Which party was the majority in the Ohio

7 House?

8 A Republican.

9 Q The governor at the time was John Kasich?

10 A Yes, it would be Kasich.

11 Q And what party was he from?

12 A He's Republican as well, we think.

13 Q Was there anything materially different

14 about the government control in Ohio from 2001 to 2011?

15 MS. MCKNIGHT: Objection.

16 A I don't know what materially -- I don't

17 know what that means. We had different people there,

18 you had different governors, yeah, it was something

19 different.

20 Q Was there anything different legislatively

21 about the process between 2001 and 2011?

22 MS. MCKNIGHT: Objection.

23 A I'm not sure. I don't know. There had

24 been several lawsuits filed in the past and I don't

25 think they had passed. They may have made changes but

Case: 1:18-cv-00357-TSB-KNM-MHW Doc #: 230-9 Filed: 02/20/19 Page: 73 of 152 PAGEID #:

12977
Confidential

TSG Reporting - Worldwide 877-702-9580

Page 74

1 S. Chabot

2 I'm not sure. I really don't know.

3 Q No problem. In general, are meetings of

4 the Ohio congressional delegation ever held?

5 A Ohio congressional -- yes.

6 Q Do these meetings include both the

7 Democratic and the Republican members of the

8 delegation?

9 A In the Ohio Republican delegation?

10 Q The Ohio congressional delegation.

11 A Oh, I thought you said Ohio Republican

12 delegation.

13 Sometimes we all get together but it's more

14 often not together when you do that, when we get

15 together.

16 Q And so is it correct that it's more often

17 that it is just the Republican members of the Ohio

18 congressional delegation meeting?

19 A And just the Democrats --

20 Q Yes, as well.

21 A Yeah, it's more common for but we do

22 sometimes all get together.

23 Q And for the meetings of just the Republican

24 members of the Ohio congressional delegation, what

25 would be the purpose of such meetings?

Case: 1:18-cv-00357-TSB-KNM-MHW Doc #: 230-9 Filed: 02/20/19 Page: 74 of 152 PAGEID #:

12978
Confidential

TSG Reporting - Worldwide 877-702-9580

Page 75

1 S. Chabot

2 A To discuss relevant matters.

3 Q And in general how would such meetings be

4 called?

5 A Now or back then?

6 Q In 2011.

7 A In 2011? How would they be called? I

8 think Boehner was speaker at the time so I'm trying to

9 remember if I was dean at the time. I think I was, but

10 I'm not absolutely sure if I was. I think I was.

11 So usually my chief of staff would say,

12 "Hey, Steve, you know, we should do a thing, you know,

13 a meeting."

14 So we'd send out that or she'd work with

15 Boehner's office to send out something to all the

16 members and make sure it was convenient on their

17 schedules. And they get together with their schedulers

18 and we have a meeting.

19 Q Okay. And prior to the 2011 redistricting

20 being passed, was there ever a meeting of the

21 Republican members of the delegation held to discuss

22 redistricting?

23 A I don't remember.

24 Q And do you recall if redistricting was ever

25 discussed by the entire delegation, both the Democratic

Case: 1:18-cv-00357-TSB-KNM-MHW Doc #: 230-9 Filed: 02/20/19 Page: 75 of 152 PAGEID #:

12979
Confidential

TSG Reporting - Worldwide 877-702-9580

Page 76

1 S. Chabot

2 and Republican members?

3 A I don't recall. I don't think so. I would

4 guess that Republicans and Democrats didn't talk about

5 it. I don't remember a time where we all got together

6 in one forum.

7 We've had dinner a few times, all of us get

8 together, Republicans and Democrats. We may have

9 talked about it then. I just don't really remember.

10 It's possible but I'm not sure.

11 Q Okay. Sure.

12 I'm now having an exhibit marked as

13 Exhibit 5.

14 (Chabot Exhibit 5, 11/17/2010 Email to

15 Susan Towns from Steve Chabot marked for identification

16 as of this date)

17 A If I could supplement one of my answers

18 here, I'm trying to be completely accurate.

19 Q Please go ahead.

20 A I think there were a number of times the

21 governor would come in, I don't remember if it was

22 Kasich or Taft or who was governor, but we would have

23 the entire delegation together and we would talk about

24 a whole range of things and both sides would be there

25 along with the governor. So we did that a number of

Case: 1:18-cv-00357-TSB-KNM-MHW Doc #: 230-9 Filed: 02/20/19 Page: 76 of 152 PAGEID #:

12980
Confidential

TSG Reporting - Worldwide 877-702-9580

Page 77

1 S. Chabot

2 times during the years, over the years. Some years

3 more than other years so...

4 Q Sure.

5 A Those were other times when we all got

6 together, both Republicans and Democrats.

7 Did you just hand me this?

8 Q I did. I'd like to now show you a document

9 being marked Exhibit 5. This document was not produced

10 by you but by your colleague, Congressman Johnson,

11 another intervenor in the case. This document came to

12 us through your counsel who was in possession of it as

13 well and this has been marked confidential.

14 So while we object to a designation of the

15 meeting as confidential, but for the purposes of this

16 deposition, however, I'll also mark this part of the

17 deposition as confidential until the parties can agree

18 to the confidentiality of the document or testimony

19 related to it or until we get resolution from the court

20 if that's necessary.

21 So turning to the document that has now

22 been marked as Exhibit 5. It's an appointment. It

23 appears to be from an Outlook calender. The subject,

24 the fourth line from the top states, "Ohio delegation

25 meeting with Congressman La Tourette Ohio 14."

Case: 1:18-cv-00357-TSB-KNM-MHW Doc #: 230-9 Filed: 02/20/19 Page: 77 of 152 PAGEID #:

12981
Confidential

TSG Reporting - Worldwide 877-702-9580

Page 78

1 S. Chabot

2 Do you see that?

3 A I do see that.

4 Q Did you know Congressman La Tourette?

5 A Yes.

6 Q Did you participate in any meetings with

7 Congressman La Tourette?

8 A He's a member of the Ohio delegation or

9 was, he's since passed away but, yes, we've been in

10 meetings together many times.

11 Q And so does this appear to be a meeting

12 that you likely would have been invited to?

13 MS. MCKNIGHT: Objection.

14 A I have no recollection at all.

15 Q Okay.

16 A If it says Ohio delegation, I would

17 probably be there. That's what this is called, the

18 delegation. He wasn't the ranking member, so I'm not

19 sure why La Tourette would be calling a meeting so I

20 just don't know.

21 Q Okay. And when your scheduler is setting

22 up your calender, do you know if she, in general, would

23 receive a similar type of calender invitation

24 electronically?

25 MS. MCKNIGHT: Objection.

Case: 1:18-cv-00357-TSB-KNM-MHW Doc #: 230-9 Filed: 02/20/19 Page: 78 of 152 PAGEID #:

12982
Confidential

TSG Reporting - Worldwide 877-702-9580

Page 79

1 S. Chabot

2 A I don't know.

3 Q And it would be correct that you would not

4 know whether Jamie and Brian searched for such calender

5 invitations when they were responding to the subpoena?

6 MS. MCKNIGHT: Objection.

7 A I just don't know.

8 Q Okay. No problem.

9 Now, this calender invitation indicates

10 that the meeting will be held in Speaker Boehner's

11 leadership office. Do you see that?

12 A I do see that.

13 Q And do you know why Congressman La Tourette

14 would have been calling a meeting to be held in the

15 speaker's office?

16 A No.

17 Q In the meeting agenda here --

18 A Let me just -- when we held delegation

19 meetings we oftentimes, when Boehner was speaker, we

20 would meet in his office. So that's where we met

21 oftentimes.

22 Q Okay.

23 A Because it was convenient for him because

24 he was speaker and he had things he had to do in the

25 Capital building.

Case: 1:18-cv-00357-TSB-KNM-MHW Doc #: 230-9 Filed: 02/20/19 Page: 79 of 152 PAGEID #:

12983
Confidential

TSG Reporting - Worldwide 877-702-9580

Page 80

1 S. Chabot

2 Q And the meeting agenda here, towards the

3 second half of the page, contains four items. Do you

4 see that?

5 A I see that.

6 Q And one of the agenda items is committee

7 assignments; is that correct?

8 A It says that.

9 Q Okay. Would Representative La Tourette

10 have power over committee assignments?

11 A My recollection is that at the time he was

12 a representative on the steering committee and the

13 steering committee is the group of us that puts us on

14 committees and the Democrats have the same thing for

15 them. So he has a vote among, you know, all the

16 different people that vote on that.

17 So I'm assuming that that's what -- what --

18 so he has some power because he's on the steering

19 committee or was.

20 Q And at the time would Speaker Boehner be on

21 the steering committee as well?

22 A Yes.

23 Q And as speaker, did he have an equal vote

24 to everyone else on the committee or did --

25 A He has more votes. I think -- I don't know

Case: 1:18-cv-00357-TSB-KNM-MHW Doc #: 230-9 Filed: 02/20/19 Page: 80 of 152 PAGEID #:

12984
Confidential

TSG Reporting - Worldwide 877-702-9580

Page 81

1 S. Chabot

2 what it was at the time. I think the speaker currently

3 gets, like, four votes and other people get one vote.

4 There may be, the whip might get two or something like

5 that. There may be others that get more than one but

6 the speaker gets the most.

7 Q Understood.

8 A Because he or she is speaker.

9 Q Yes. And back to the agenda, the third

10 item listed here is redistricting. Do you see that?

11 A I see that.

12 Q And do you recall redistricting ever being

13 discussed in the delegation meeting in Speaker

14 Boehner's office?

15 A I don't recall it, no.

16 Q Okay. I'll putting that document aside.

17 Did you ever talk about redistricting with then Speaker

18 Boehner?

19 A I don't recall specifically but I wouldn't

20 be surprised if we discussed it at some point.

21 Q Would it be correct that you don't have any

22 recollection of the substance of those conversations?

23 A That's correct.

24 Q Did you understand then Speaker Boehner to

25 have some control in the area of redistricting?

Case: 1:18-cv-00357-TSB-KNM-MHW Doc #: 230-9 Filed: 02/20/19 Page: 81 of 152 PAGEID #:

12985
Confidential

TSG Reporting - Worldwide 877-702-9580

Page 82

1 S. Chabot

2 A He had four votes. Wait, excuse me, that's

3 not right. That's the steering committee.

4 As speaker, he probably had some more --

5 what was the word you used?

6 Q I said have some control.

7 A Control, yeah. I was thinking control or

8 power or whatever. But he had more control over it

9 than the rest of us. I would, again, I'm just assuming

10 that because he's speaker.

11 Q Sure. And in 2010 or 2011 did you ever

12 have conversations about redistricting with any other

13 Republican members of the Ohio congressional

14 delegation?

15 A I don't recall, but I'm sure we probably

16 talked about it on occasion.

17 Q And do you recall ever having conversations

18 about redistricting with Democratic members of the

19 delegation at the time?

20 A I don't recall but I think we probably did.

21 Q And do you recall ever talking about

22 redistricting to other Congress people, meaning those

23 who are not within the Ohio delegation?

24 A I'm sure we have conversations because they

25 have the same things going on in their states and

Case: 1:18-cv-00357-TSB-KNM-MHW Doc #: 230-9 Filed: 02/20/19 Page: 82 of 152 PAGEID #:

12986
Confidential

TSG Reporting - Worldwide 877-702-9580

Page 83

1 S. Chabot

2 people talk about that kind of stuff occasionally. I

3 don't specifically remember them but that's the kind of

4 stuff you talk about.

5 Q Sure.

6 MS. MCKNIGHT: Counsel, if it's convenient,

7 we've been going about an hour and a half now. It may

8 make sense to take a break. Could we go off the

9 record?

10 (There was a discussion held off the

11 record.)

12 BY MS. LEE:

13 Q Congressman, did you, in 2010 or 2011, ever

14 email with any other Congress people about

15 redistricting that you recall?

16 A Not that I recall.

17 Q And at that time did you regularly use text

18 or other messages to communicate with other Congress

19 people?

20 A I don't think I used text at all back then.

21 Q Okay.

22 A That was a pretty recent development on my

23 part.

24 Q Understood. And we've touched on this a

25 little bit but is it the case that your staff people

Case: 1:18-cv-00357-TSB-KNM-MHW Doc #: 230-9 Filed: 02/20/19 Page: 83 of 152 PAGEID #:

12987
Confidential

TSG Reporting - Worldwide 877-702-9580

Page 84

1 S. Chabot

2 communicate with others on your behalf?

3 A They do.

4 Q And do you know if any members of your

5 staff communicated with other congressional staffers

6 about the Ohio redistricting?

7 A Not that I'm aware of.

8 Q Did you ever have any member of your staff

9 reach out to any members of Speaker Boehner's staff

10 about redistricting?

11 A Not that I'm aware of.

12 Q Did you ever discuss where the lines in

13 your district might be drawn for the 2011

14 redistricting?

15 A I don't recall.

16 Q Have you ever heard of Project Red Map?

17 A No. I don't recall ever hearing that

18 before. I'm definitely aware of Act Blue. That's a

19 color that we heard a whole lot about over the years

20 but especially this year.

21 Q Understood. Do you know Tom, and I may

22 well pronounce his last name incorrectly as well,

23 Niehaus?

24 A Tom, yes.

25 Q And who is he?

Case: 1:18-cv-00357-TSB-KNM-MHW Doc #: 230-9 Filed: 02/20/19 Page: 84 of 152 PAGEID #:

12988
Confidential

TSG Reporting - Worldwide 877-702-9580

Page 85

1 S. Chabot

2 A I'm trying to remember. I don't recall if

3 he was in the Senate or the state. I forget his

4 position, but I think he was actually one of the

5 leaders in one or the other. He was a state rep or

6 state senator.

7 Q And do you know if Mr. Niehaus was involved

8 in Ohio's congressional redistricting?

9 A I don't know.

10 Q Did you have any conversations with Tom

11 Niehaus in 2011 regarding Ohio's redistricting?

12 A I don't recall.

13 Q Do you know if you had any of your staffers

14 communicate with Tom Niehaus regarding Ohio's

15 redistricting?

16 A I don't recall.

17 Q Do you know Bill Batchelder?

18 A Yes.

19 Q Who is he?

20 A He was the speaker, I don't remember if it

21 was that time, but I think he was speaker of the House.

22 Q And do you have any understanding of his

23 involvement with Ohio's congressional redistricting?

24 A No, but I assume in that capacity that he

25 would have had some involvement.

Case: 1:18-cv-00357-TSB-KNM-MHW Doc #: 230-9 Filed: 02/20/19 Page: 85 of 152 PAGEID #:

12989
Confidential

TSG Reporting - Worldwide 877-702-9580

Page 86

1 S. Chabot

2 Q Do you recall any conversations you had

3 with him regarding Ohio's redistricting?

4 A No.

5 Q Did you know Bob Bennett?

6 A He was the head of the party. I don't

7 remember if it was at that time and he's since

8 depart -- he's deceased now.

9 Q Yes. Do you know anything about his

10 involvement in Ohio's congressional redistricting?

11 A No.

12 Q Do you know if any of your staffers had any

13 conversations with Mr. Bennett or members of his staff

14 regarding Ohio's redistricting?

15 A Not that I'm aware of.

16 Q Do you know Heather Mann, last name is now

17 Blessing?

18 A I know some Blessings. I don't know if I

19 know Heather Blessing.

20 Q Do you have any knowledge of her

21 involvement in Ohio congressional redistricting?

22 A No.

23 Q Do you know Ray DiRossi?

24 A No.

25 Q Did you know Tom Hofeller?

Case: 1:18-cv-00357-TSB-KNM-MHW Doc #: 230-9 Filed: 02/20/19 Page: 86 of 152 PAGEID #:

12990
Confidential

TSG Reporting - Worldwide 877-702-9580

Page 87

1 S. Chabot

2 A It doesn't ring a bell.

3 Q Do you know Mark Braden?

4 A Yes, he's the attorney -- I don't know if

5 he's this firm but he's a very good attorney from what

6 I understand.

7 Q Okay.

8 A Been around for a long time.

9 Q Do you know if Mr. Braden had any

10 involvement in Ohio's congressional redistricting?

11 A I don't recall.

12 Q Do you know John Morgan?

13 A Doesn't ring a bell.

14 Q Do you know Adam Kincaid?

15 A Doesn't ring a bell either.

16 Q And for each of the names that you don't

17 remember and doesn't ring a bell, to sort of save us

18 all time, I'm not marching through the rest of the

19 questions, but would it be fair to say that for each of

20 the individuals you don't recall, you equally don't

21 recall any conversations with them had by you or your

22 staff?

23 A That's correct.

24 Q Do you know Tom Whatman?

25 A I know Tom, yes.

Case: 1:18-cv-00357-TSB-KNM-MHW Doc #: 230-9 Filed: 02/20/19 Page: 87 of 152 PAGEID #:

12991
Confidential

TSG Reporting - Worldwide 877-702-9580

Page 88

1 S. Chabot

2 Q And who is he?

3 A I don't know, he's been around politics for

4 a long time. I'm not really sure what his capacity is.

5 Q Okay. And did Mr. Whatman have any

6 involvement in Ohio's redistricting that you're aware

7 of?

8 A You know, I don't know. I remember his

9 name being talked about. May have been in press

10 reports and things.

11 Q In 2011 did you have any particular

12 understanding of Speaker Boehner's relationship with

13 the Ohio redistricting?

14 A His relationship of redistricting? He was

15 involved as speaker of the house. He had been in the

16 state legislature himself prior to that, too. So he

17 was kind of familiar with the process.

18 Q Sure. Do you know if Speaker Boehner

19 communicated with any members of the Ohio General

20 Assembly about the congressional map?

21 A I don't know if he did or didn't. But I'd

22 be surprised if he didn't as Speaker of the House.

23 Q Sure. Did you ever discuss with Speaker

24 Boehner what you wanted your district to look like?

25 A I don't recall specifically. I'm sure we

Case: 1:18-cv-00357-TSB-KNM-MHW Doc #: 230-9 Filed: 02/20/19 Page: 88 of 152 PAGEID #:

12992
Confidential

TSG Reporting - Worldwide 877-702-9580

Page 89

1 S. Chabot

2 had some conversations about it. Our districts were

3 adjacent to each other. But I don't recall the

4 specifics of it.

5 Q And through his role as speaker at the

6 time, is it your understanding that Mr. Boehner was

7 then the head of the NRCC?

8 A I don't think he was the head of the NRCC.

9 There's a chairman who's the head of it, I think. But

10 he's the head of -- so I guess it's head of -- it's

11 hard -- I don't think he's the head of the NRCC.

12 There's a person that's called the chairman

13 of the NRCC and it's not Boehner. There's somebody

14 that specifically has that role. He's probably over

15 them but...

16 Q That would be --

17 A Sorry for the long answer.

18 Q No --

19 A On one hand, but on the other hand.

20 (Laughter.)

21 Q And that would be because of his role as

22 speaker, not -- whoever had the role of speaker would

23 have that position?

24 A Would be kind of over all the rest of the

25 stuff. But the NRCC is its own entity and they have a

Case: 1:18-cv-00357-TSB-KNM-MHW Doc #: 230-9 Filed: 02/20/19 Page: 89 of 152 PAGEID #:

12993
Confidential

TSG Reporting - Worldwide 877-702-9580

Page 90

1 S. Chabot

2 chairman who's in charge of that.

3 Q Okay. And what is your understanding of

4 the role of the NRCC with respect to the Republican

5 members of Congress?

6 A It's our political organization. They

7 raise money. They target races. They try to defend

8 ones that we think are vulnerable and they try to

9 target Democratic members who they think are vulnerable

10 and so that's what they do. And that's a DCCC,

11 Democratic Congressional Campaign that basically serves

12 the same function on the other -- for the other party.

13 Q Have you ever attended any presentations by

14 the NRCC related to redistricting?

15 A Not that I recall.

16 Q Do you recall ever reviewing any materials

17 by the NRCC related to redistricting?

18 A Not that I recall.

19 Q And has anyone on your staff attended

20 presentations by the NRCC related to districting that

21 you're aware of?

22 A Not that I'm aware of.

23 Q Did anyone on your staff ever report back

24 to you regarding an NRCC redistricting presentation?

25 A Not that I recall.

Case: 1:18-cv-00357-TSB-KNM-MHW Doc #: 230-9 Filed: 02/20/19 Page: 90 of 152 PAGEID #:

12994
Confidential

TSG Reporting - Worldwide 877-702-9580

Page 91

1 S. Chabot

2 Q In general, is it usually the case that

3 incumbents are elected?

4 MS. MCKNIGHT: Objection.

5 A I think the percentages, if you look at

6 them historically, generally Republicans are more

7 likely to be elected than not. Did I say incumbents?

8 Incumbents are elected. I wanted to say the right

9 thing. Sometimes I just say the wrong word.

10 (Laughter.)

11 Q Do you have any knowledge of why incumbents

12 might not be reelected?

13 A Why incumbents might not be reelected?

14 Because there's a better candidate or better funding,

15 or they may have a scandal.

16 There's a whole range of reasons incumbents

17 can lose. A lot of them are friends of mine. In New

18 Jersey there were four out of five Republicans who

19 lost. Now we're down to one Republican and we had

20 five.

21 In California there are 53 members of

22 Congress and there are going to be 46 Democrats and 7

23 Republicans. So that shows you, you know, it can kind

24 of go both ways.

25 Q But the Ohio delegation did not shift other

Case: 1:18-cv-00357-TSB-KNM-MHW Doc #: 230-9 Filed: 02/20/19 Page: 91 of 152 PAGEID #:

12995
Confidential

TSG Reporting - Worldwide 877-702-9580

Page 92

1 S. Chabot

2 than Mr. -- I'm going to butcher it -- Renacci,

3 Mr. Renacci not running for office in the 16th; is that

4 correct?

5 MS. MCKNIGHT: Objection.

6 A I'm not sure exactly what the question is.

7 Q So you're referring to delegation changes

8 in New Jersey and California. Is it true that after

9 this last election the Ohio delegation did not change

10 in composition?

11 MS. MCKNIGHT: Objection.

12 A I don't think it changed the competition in

13 Ohio this election.

14 Q After you were elected --

15 A Although that's not true either. We had

16 several retirements and they were replaced by other

17 people so it did change somewhat.

18 Q But did the party breakdown change at all?

19 A I don't think the party changed, no.

20 Q After being elected in 1994 you held your

21 seat until you were defeated by Steve Driehaus in 2008;

22 is that correct?

23 A Unfortunately, Steve Driehaus did defeat me

24 in 2008.

25 Q Why do you think you lost to Mr. Driehaus?

Case: 1:18-cv-00357-TSB-KNM-MHW Doc #: 230-9 Filed: 02/20/19 Page: 92 of 152 PAGEID #:

12996
Confidential

TSG Reporting - Worldwide 877-702-9580

Page 93

1 S. Chabot

2 A Why do I think I lost to Mr. Driehaus? Not

3 to be flippant, but he got more votes than I did.

4 That's how you lose races. So you want to get more

5 votes than your opponent does.

6 Q Do you have any thoughts on what the cause

7 of Mr. Driehaus getting more votes than you was?

8 A Well, that year candidate Obama beating

9 candidate McCain by 11 percent and I lost that year.

10 So the next year candidate Obama, who was then

11 President Obama wasn't on the ballot. The district was

12 exactly the same and I won the next time against the

13 same person that had beat me.

14 So you can kind of make arguments about it.

15 I hadn't really changed and Driehaus hadn't really

16 changed. He did vote for Obamacare or the so-called

17 Affordable Care Act, some people call it the

18 unAffordable Care Act.

19 So there were issues that were out there.

20 But he beat me and then I beat him. And we're the same

21 people in the same district. The district had not been

22 redrawn or anything else.

23 I generally attributed it to increased

24 turnout for Barack Obama that year that I lost. I

25 think that's probably what it was more than anything

Case: 1:18-cv-00357-TSB-KNM-MHW Doc #: 230-9 Filed: 02/20/19 Page: 93 of 152 PAGEID #:

12997
Confidential

TSG Reporting - Worldwide 877-702-9580

Page 94

1 S. Chabot

2 else.

3 Q At the time that Mr. Driehaus prevailed in

4 the November 2008 election, did you communicate with

5 anyone regarding why you might have lost that election?

6 A I'm sure I did.

7 Q Would any of those communications have

8 occurred over email or text messages?

9 A I doubt it.

10 Q And in 2008 Mr. Driehaus defeated you with

11 52 percent of the vote to 48 percent. Do you recall

12 that?

13 A Yeah, it was approximately that. Thanks a

14 lot.

15 Q Well, here you go.

16 A Yeah, it was around that.

17 (Laughter.)

18 Q And then in 2010 you came back and defeated

19 Mr. Driehaus garnering 52 percent of the vote, the same

20 as he had in the previous year?

21 A I thought it was a little more than that,

22 but if that's what you're saying. I thought he beat me

23 by 5 the first time and I beat him by 5 and a half the

24 second time. But then you have absentees that come in

25 and some provisional ballots and stuff. That tends to

Case: 1:18-cv-00357-TSB-KNM-MHW Doc #: 230-9 Filed: 02/20/19 Page: 94 of 152 PAGEID #:

12998
Confidential

TSG Reporting - Worldwide 877-702-9580

Page 95

1 S. Chabot

2 go more Democratic by a percent or so. Yours are

3 probably more accurate because I'm remembering on

4 election night and you're probably the actual results

5 after more Democratic votes came in. So, again, thanks

6 a lot.

7 Q And that 2010 election in which you won,

8 was the last one under the previous congressional map;

9 is that correct?

10 A That is correct. But I would like to make

11 the point that he beat me under that old map and I beat

12 him in the same district. So we both beat each other

13 in that same district. The district had not changed.

14 Q Yes. And then in 2012, which was under the

15 new congressional map where the district had changed --

16 A That's right.

17 Q -- you won your seat with 58 percent of the

18 vote; is that correct?

19 A I did, against a guy that spent zero money

20 on the race and said he had no chance of winning and

21 didn't run a campaign at all.

22 Q In 2012 was another presidential election

23 year in which President Obama was on the ballot, much

24 like one of the reasons you said that Mr. Driehaus

25 defeated you. Do you have any opinion as to why that

Case: 1:18-cv-00357-TSB-KNM-MHW Doc #: 230-9 Filed: 02/20/19 Page: 95 of 152 PAGEID #:

12999
Confidential

TSG Reporting - Worldwide 877-702-9580

Page 96

1 S. Chabot

2 didn't cause the same effect in 2012?

3 A Well, Driehaus probably spent 2 million

4 dollars and this guy spent zero.

5 Q Okay. And you do agree that the District

6 1, your district changed between the 2010 election and

7 the 2012 election?

8 A Yes.

9 Q Do you think that your district became more

10 favorable with that redistricting?

11 A It depends on what your definition of

12 favorable would be.

13 Q From your personal perspective, did you

14 think the district was more favorable to you as a

15 candidate when it happened?

16 A I think they were both great districts.

17 Q Have you ever heard of congressional

18 districts being ranked as plus or minus some number

19 with respect to each of the main political parties?

20 A I have heard that before.

21 Q And this ranking is sometimes referred to

22 as a partisan index or partisan voting index or PVI.

23 Does that sound familiar?

24 A It sounds familiar, yes.

25 MS. LEE: I'm now having marked as

Case: 1:18-cv-00357-TSB-KNM-MHW Doc #: 230-9 Filed: 02/20/19 Page: 96 of 152 PAGEID #:

13000
Confidential

TSG Reporting - Worldwide 877-702-9580

Page 97

1 S. Chabot

2 Exhibit 6 a Presentation of the National Republican

3 Congressional Committee from 2012.

4 (Chabot Exhibit 6, Presentation of the

5 National Republican Congressional Committee from 2012,

6 marked for identification as of this date)

7 MS. LEE: Counsel, for reference this is

8 NRCC 000031 as the Bates is not visible on this

9 document because the first version with the Bates was

10 pretty illegible.

11 BY MS. LEE:

12 Q Have you seen this presentation before?

13 Does it look familiar to you?

14 A It doesn't look familiar to me.

15 Q Can you flip with me to the fourth page of

16 this presentation?

17 A Yes. Am I on the right page?

18 Q The next one. This slide is titled "R for

19 Republican Seats Moved Out of Play." Do you see that?

20 A I see that, yes.

21 Q That's the title. And then underneath that

22 line it indicates that a number in parentheses

23 indicates the shift in Republican favor.

24 If you look in the second column the third

25 entry down it says, "Ohio 1 Chabot R plus 6." And in

Case: 1:18-cv-00357-TSB-KNM-MHW Doc #: 230-9 Filed: 02/20/19 Page: 97 of 152 PAGEID #:

13001
Confidential

TSG Reporting - Worldwide 877-702-9580

Page 98

1 S. Chabot

2 parentheses it says "plus 7." Do you see that?

3 A I see that.

4 Q So is this presentation by the NRCC

5 indicating there was a 7 point shift in favor of

6 Republicans in your district by the 2011 redistricting?

7 MS. MCKNIGHT: Objection.

8 A I don't know what it means. Why is the one

9 6 and one 7?

10 Q So the slide indicates that the number in

11 parentheses indicates the shift in Republican favor.

12 A Oh, I see what you're saying. Okay. Okay.

13 I understand what it means now. I didn't really

14 understand before exactly what it was. I have not seen

15 this before that I'm aware of but I do see it now.

16 Q Okay. And is this slide by the NRCC, which

17 you indicated was the political arm for the Republican

18 members of Congress, indicating there was a 7 point

19 shift in Republican favor in your district?

20 A If that's what it says, apparently that's

21 what they're trying to portray here. I'm not aware of

22 that. I wouldn't specifically say myself that's true

23 or that's what it means. But according to you that's

24 what that is supposed to indicate.

25 Q Okay. And in 2012, before the 2012

Case: 1:18-cv-00357-TSB-KNM-MHW Doc #: 230-9 Filed: 02/20/19 Page: 98 of 152 PAGEID #:

13002
Confidential

TSG Reporting - Worldwide 877-702-9580

Page 99

1 S. Chabot

2 election, did you have any knowledge of what the

3 partisan index or partisan voting index or PVI ranking

4 of your district was?

5 A Before the 2012?

6 Q After the 2011 redistricting but before the

7 2012 election, did you have any knowledge of the PVI of

8 your district?

9 A I'm sorry, I still don't understand that

10 question. Could you repeat that again?

11 Q So after the 2011 redistricting?

12 A After the redistricting, okay.

13 Q So the new District 1, the shape that it's

14 currently in, did you have any knowledge of what

15 voting, partisan voting index or PVI was then assigned

16 to your district?

17 A I recall a number similar to this that I

18 heard that I don't remember who told me or where I saw

19 it, but I remember something about that.

20 Q And do you recall that being a number more

21 in Republican favor than it had been under the previous

22 congressional map?

23 A Yes.

24 Q Did you have conversations with anyone at

25 the time about your district becoming more favorable

Case: 1:18-cv-00357-TSB-KNM-MHW Doc #: 230-9 Filed: 02/20/19 Page: 99 of 152 PAGEID #:

13003
Confidential

TSG Reporting - Worldwide 877-702-9580

Page 100

1 S. Chabot

2 through measurements such as this due to the

3 redistricting?

4 A I don't recall any conversations about this

5 in my district. I recall having -- I don't recall

6 specifically but I can't imagine I wouldn't have talked

7 to people about my district, you know, when you're

8 doing redistricting.

9 Q Sure. Do you have any understanding of why

10 your district was improved in Republican favor, the

11 cause behind it being drawn that way?

12 MS. MCKNIGHT: Objection.

13 A Not really, I mean I assume that -- not

14 really.

15 Q Okay. Changing gears here a little bit.

16 Is it your perspective that people have the best

17 understanding of their home community?

18 A Yes.

19 Q Do you find that people all over have a

20 unique perspective on their own hometown?

21 MS. MCKNIGHT: Objection.

22 A I would assume that's the case.

23 Q Those who live in a certain town know it

24 better than the outsiders?

25 A I would assume that's the case, yes.

Case: 1:18-cv-00357-TSB-KNM-MHW Doc #: 230-9 Filed: 02/20/19 Page: 100 of 152 PAGEID #:

13004
Confidential

TSG Reporting - Worldwide 877-702-9580

Page 101

1 S. Chabot

2 Q Do you think it is a fair characterization

3 of Congressional District 1 in the time that you've

4 been its representative that the anchor of the district

5 has been Hamilton County?

6 MS. MCKNIGHT: Objection.

7 A I mean, it's contained more of Hamilton

8 County than any other area. But if you're in Warren

9 County or if you're in those parts of Butler County, to

10 them you're a part of that community is every bit as

11 important to them.

12 Q But is it fair to say that across those

13 redistrictings Hamilton County is the only county that

14 has always been part of District 1, is that true?

15 A Yes.

16 Q And would you agree that the county seat of

17 Hamilton County is the city of Cincinnati?

18 A The county seat's in Cincinnati, I think.

19 That's where the courthouse is and the city. There's

20 more people in Cincinnati than any other part of

21 Hamilton County. Although there's more people outside

22 the city in Hamilton County than there are inside the

23 city.

24 Q Is it true that Cincinnati is the largest

25 city in southwest Ohio?

Case: 1:18-cv-00357-TSB-KNM-MHW Doc #: 230-9 Filed: 02/20/19 Page: 101 of 152 PAGEID #:

13005
Confidential

TSG Reporting - Worldwide 877-702-9580

Page 102

1 S. Chabot

2 A Yes.

3 Q Would you agree that Cincinnati has had

4 particular development projects over the years?

5 A Yes.

6 Q Is the revitalization of the waterfront

7 along the Ohio River one of those projects?

8 A Yes.

9 Q All right. And you're from Cincinnati; is

10 that correct?

11 A I am. I live in the city and have for

12 about 60 years.

13 Q What neighborhood do you live in?

14 A Westwood.

15 Q Am I correct that neighborhoods in

16 Cincinnati have more of an official function than just

17 naming of an area as in other cities?

18 MS. MCKNIGHT: Objection.

19 A I mean, there are community councils and

20 things like that in those -- it's about 53

21 neighborhoods or so in Cincinnati so they have some --

22 some power. I mean, they might get a little bit of

23 money, the community council, for some project in the

24 community.

25 Q Let's turn then to the first district

Case: 1:18-cv-00357-TSB-KNM-MHW Doc #: 230-9 Filed: 02/20/19 Page: 102 of 152 PAGEID #:

13006
Confidential

TSG Reporting - Worldwide 877-702-9580

Page 103

1 S. Chabot

2 specifically. I'm having marked here as Exhibit 7.

3 (Chabot Exhibit 7, Congressional Districts

4 Map for Ohio, marked for identification as of this

5 date)

6 Q Congressman, do you recognize what is

7 depicted here?

8 A Yes.

9 Q What is this?

10 A These the congressional districts

11 throughout Ohio.

12 Q And looking at the map, is there anything

13 that you view as notable about it?

14 A There's 16 districts and one of them is

15 mine, the one I have the honor to represent.

16 Q Is there anything else that you would say

17 stands out about the -- about the map in your opinion?

18 A I think it's the greatest state of the 50

19 states that are in the United States.

20 Q Okay. And now let's zoom into the first

21 district.

22 I'm having marked a document as Exhibit 8.

23 (Chabot Exhibit 8, First Congressional

24 District of Ohio Map, marked for identification as of

25 this date)

Case: 1:18-cv-00357-TSB-KNM-MHW Doc #: 230-9 Filed: 02/20/19 Page: 103 of 152 PAGEID #:

13007
Confidential

TSG Reporting - Worldwide 877-702-9580

Page 104

1 S. Chabot

2 Q Do you recognize what's depicted here in

3 Exhibit 8?

4 A I do. That's the First Congressional

5 District of Ohio.

6 Q Would you agree that in Hamilton County,

7 the first district and the second district kind of wrap

8 around each other?

9 MS. MCKNIGHT: Objection.

10 A I don't know what that means.

11 Q Would you agree that starting on the

12 westerly-most part of Hamilton County you're in the

13 first district and coming straight across the county

14 across the city of Cincinnati you then enter the second

15 district?

16 A I guess I don't understand. Are you

17 talking about this part here (indicating)?

18 Q Yes.

19 A So what -- I'm happy to answer your

20 question.

21 Q Sure. So would you agree that the first

22 district in Hamilton County comes around, bounds the

23 second district on two sides within the county?

24 A There is a small portion of it that does

25 there, if that's what you're getting at. I would agree

Case: 1:18-cv-00357-TSB-KNM-MHW Doc #: 230-9 Filed: 02/20/19 Page: 104 of 152 PAGEID #:

13008
Confidential

TSG Reporting - Worldwide 877-702-9580

Page 105

1 S. Chabot

2 that this part is around this part. But it's not

3 around all that other part out there.

4 Q Sure. What would you say is the purpose of

5 this configuration of the two districts within Hamilton

6 County?

7 A What would I say the purpose of that is?

8 To show the lines between the two districts.

9 Q What would you say the reason for Hamilton

10 County being split up in this way would be?

11 A Well, I can tell you what I've heard but

12 it's hearsay. But what I understand --

13 Q Please.

14 A -- is we were losing two seats in Ohio. We

15 were going from 18 to 16. So a number of the new

16 districts had to pick up people, including mine. We

17 had to pick up about a hundred thousand new people.

18 And the way our district is -- so we had to

19 pick up about 100,000, might have been 130,000 new

20 people or something like that.

21 So if you're picking up people, you're

22 going to go in one direct or another to pick these

23 people up. We couldn't go south because that's

24 Kentucky. We can't pick up Kentucky people.

25 We couldn't go west, because that's

Case: 1:18-cv-00357-TSB-KNM-MHW Doc #: 230-9 Filed: 02/20/19 Page: 105 of 152 PAGEID #:

13009
Confidential

TSG Reporting - Worldwide 877-702-9580

Page 106

1 S. Chabot

2 Indiana. So we either go this way or this way.

3 Now, north was the Speaker of the House.

4 Butler County up here had been divided. It had been

5 divided into -- I had a little bit of Butler County up

6 here and Boehner had the rest and then some. So this

7 county of the made as one.

8 Now, east you've got another member of

9 Congress's district here. It was Jean Schmidt at the

10 time. It's now Brad Wenstrup.

11 This county, Warren County, was divided

12 like Butler County was divided. Warren County was

13 divided into two parts, too.

14 One of the things they tried to do is if

15 you can have all of the county be in a district, do

16 that.

17 So my understanding what I heard afterwards

18 is they made Butler County one whole county, one

19 district. They made Warren County whole.

20 So rather than this one being split into

21 two parts and this one being split into two parts, they

22 made those both whole. They impacted other districts

23 much less by doing it the way they did it. That's what

24 I heard after the fact.

25 I don't remember who told me that. Brian

Case: 1:18-cv-00357-TSB-KNM-MHW Doc #: 230-9 Filed: 02/20/19 Page: 106 of 152 PAGEID #:

13010
Confidential

TSG Reporting - Worldwide 877-702-9580

Page 107

1 S. Chabot

2 may have told me that he heard that. I just don't

3 recall who it was.

4 And what I heard was that the reason they

5 cut this part out of Hamilton County instead of just

6 draw a line straight up is you would have drawn

7 African-Americans out of the district by doing it this

8 way and they would have been adversely impacting the

9 interest of African-Americans if they just cut the line

10 straight.

11 So they drew out these areas here which

12 were not African-Americans in general. That's what I

13 heard but I don't know if that's accurate or not.

14 They were trying to keep African-Americans

15 in my district is my understanding or at least there

16 was some interest in doing that. So that's just what I

17 heard.

18 Q Sure.

19 A It's all hearsay and it's stuff I heard

20 over the years in different capacities.

21 Q Absolutely. And we touched on -- then the

22 whole of Warren County is part of this district?

23 A Correct.

24 Q And do you think that the two portions of

25 the Cincinnati waterfront that are split into District

Case: 1:18-cv-00357-TSB-KNM-MHW Doc #: 230-9 Filed: 02/20/19 Page: 107 of 152 PAGEID #:

13011
Confidential

TSG Reporting - Worldwide 877-702-9580

Page 108

1 S. Chabot

2 1 and District 2 have more in common with one another

3 than do the west side of Cincinnati and Warren County?

4 MS. MCKNIGHT: Objection.

5 A I couldn't venture a guess as to that.

6 Q So you couldn't venture a guess as to

7 whether two halves of the city of Cincinnati have more

8 in common with each other than does half the city of

9 Cincinnati and Warren County?

10 MS. MCKNIGHT: Objection.

11 A Yes. To further add to what I remember

12 what I heard, there had always been -- down in our area

13 we always had two representatives in Hamilton County.

14 It's always been city of Cincinnati has

15 two, although they won't after the next time around

16 because the city's gonna be whole. So we've always had

17 two representatives down our way.

18 I think people like having two people

19 representing them rather than just one. If you put the

20 county together as one, you only have one person

21 representing them. I think the city's idea was we'll

22 have more power if we have two down our way.

23 So, again, I don't know how much truth

24 there is in any of that, but this is stuff you pick up

25 over the years that people say.

Case: 1:18-cv-00357-TSB-KNM-MHW Doc #: 230-9 Filed: 02/20/19 Page: 108 of 152 PAGEID #:

13012
Confidential

TSG Reporting - Worldwide 877-702-9580

Page 109

1 S. Chabot

2 Q In February of this year you spoke at the

3 annual Ohio GOP Lincoln Reagan Day Dinner; is that

4 correct?

5 A I did.

6 Q At that time did you state, "Thanks to

7 great state representation, Warren County came into my

8 district"?

9 A I think I did say that, yeah.

10 Q What did you mean that it was great state

11 representation that put Warren County into your

12 district?

13 A Well, there was one finally, I represented

14 it and I really liked Warren County a lot and I

15 appreciated it.

16 Q Why is it that you really like Warren

17 County a lot?

18 A They're great people and they're really

19 nice. The people in Hamilton County are great, too.

20 I've got the best congressional district in Ohio.

21 Q And if the city of Cincinnati was whole,

22 and as you say it will be in the 2020 redistricting,

23 would those people on the east side of Cincinnati be

24 equally great people as those in Warren County?

25 A Not until they get into my district, then

Case: 1:18-cv-00357-TSB-KNM-MHW Doc #: 230-9 Filed: 02/20/19 Page: 109 of 152 PAGEID #:

13013
Confidential

TSG Reporting - Worldwide 877-702-9580

Page 110

1 S. Chabot

2 they will be.

3 Q So would it be the case that you would be

4 equally happy if in the 2011 redistricting you did not

5 have Warren County added to your district, provided

6 Warren County was kept whole otherwise and the first

7 district was confined to Hamilton County?

8 MS. MCKNIGHT: Objection.

9 A No, it wouldn't be. I want to keep Warren

10 County. I love Warren County.

11 Q And why is that?

12 A Because they're great people.

13 Q And in 2011, did you advocate to anyone

14 that Warren County be added to your district?

15 A Not that I recollect.

16 Q And so around the 2011 redistricting, did

17 you have any opinion about what your district would be

18 drawn to be?

19 A Could you repeat that?

20 Q In around the 2011 redistricting, did you

21 have any opinion about how the lines of your district

22 would be drawn?

23 A I had an opinion to some degree, yeah. I

24 mean, I wanted a district that I could continue to

25 represent.

Case: 1:18-cv-00357-TSB-KNM-MHW Doc #: 230-9 Filed: 02/20/19 Page: 110 of 152 PAGEID #:

13014
Confidential

TSG Reporting - Worldwide 877-702-9580

Page 111

1 S. Chabot

2 Q And what do you mean by a district you

3 could continue to represent?

4 A I could get elected in it and continue to

5 give them, I think, the great representation that they

6 have.

7 Q And at the Lincoln Reagan Day dinner, did

8 you further say that, "Democrats run up the vote in the

9 city part of the district and so we," I take it you're

10 referring to Republicans as you're speaking at a GOP

11 dinner, "have to run up the vote in the county

12 portion," referring to Warren County"?

13 A I don't recall saying that. But I wouldn't

14 have been just referring to Warren County. I mean,

15 there's -- I do much better in this part of the

16 district outside the city than I do in the city. I

17 mean, there's no question about that.

18 So if I was talking about Warren County, I

19 was talking about all the areas. I don't specifically

20 remember saying it, but if you have a quote there and I

21 said it then I'm not saying I didn't.

22 Q After you won in the most recent election,

23 a little less than a month ago, on election night did

24 you say that you didn't expect to do as well in some of

25 the urban areas but that because of Warren County you

Case: 1:18-cv-00357-TSB-KNM-MHW Doc #: 230-9 Filed: 02/20/19 Page: 111 of 152 PAGEID #:

13015
Confidential

TSG Reporting - Worldwide 877-702-9580

Page 112

1 S. Chabot

2 thought you could overcome that deficit from the urban

3 areas?

4 A I don't remember saying that, no.

5 Q Does that sound like something you would

6 think to be the case about the first district?

7 MS. MCKNIGHT: Objection.

8 A The urban areas tend to be more Democratic

9 and the more suburban rural areas tend to be more

10 Republican. So, I mean, it makes political sense to me

11 but I don't recall saying it.

12 Q Are you familiar with the News 5 in

13 Cincinnati?

14 A News 5, Channel 5, the news, yeah, I'm

15 familiar with them.

16 Q And would it surprise you to learn that

17 they reported that this is what you said on election

18 night?

19 A It doesn't surprise me. I just don't

20 recall saying that specifically.

21 Q Are you familiar with the fact that the

22 plaintiffs, as part of their case, have submitted a

23 remedial map?

24 A No.

25 Q I would now like to show you a document I'm

Case: 1:18-cv-00357-TSB-KNM-MHW Doc #: 230-9 Filed: 02/20/19 Page: 112 of 152 PAGEID #:

13016
Confidential

TSG Reporting - Worldwide 877-702-9580

Page 113

1 S. Chabot

2 having marked as Exhibit 9.

3 (Chabot Exhibit 9, Remedial Map Submitted

4 by Plaintiffs, marked for identification as of this

5 date)

6 Q And this document is the remedial map that

7 plaintiffs have submitted in this case.

8 In this map would you agree that Butler

9 County is kept whole within a district?

10 A Yep.

11 Q And would you also agree that Warren County

12 is kept whole within a district?

13 A According to this map it is, yes.

14 Q And those are two of the things that you

15 had testified to that were important about how the 2011

16 redistricting put the map together; is that correct?

17 A Yes.

18 Q And in this map, the District 1 is confined

19 to Hamilton County; is that correct?

20 A All of District 1 you have in Hamilton

21 County.

22 Q Yes. And would it surprise you to learn

23 that this District 1 has a higher percentage of

24 African-Americans keeping the whole of Cincinnati

25 together than does District 1 under the current

Case: 1:18-cv-00357-TSB-KNM-MHW Doc #: 230-9 Filed: 02/20/19 Page: 113 of 152 PAGEID #:

13017
Confidential

TSG Reporting - Worldwide 877-702-9580

Page 114

1 S. Chabot

2 congressional map?

3 A It wouldn't surprise me or I wouldn't say

4 it's not true either. I just don't know.

5 Q Just don't know.

6 And you had stated that you had previously

7 heard that one of the reasons that District 1 was not

8 drawn to the east side of Cincinnati was about

9 preserving African-American representation; is that

10 correct?

11 MS. MCKNIGHT: Objection.

12 A That was to keep it in our district.

13 That's what I had heard. That's what I heard.

14 Q Okay. Now let's zoom in on proposed

15 remedial District 1 which I'm having now marked as

16 Exhibit 10.

17 (Chabot Exhibit 10, Map of Proposed

18 District 1, marked for identification as of this date)

19 Q Looking at this map of Proposed District 1,

20 do you observe any problem with this map such that the

21 court shouldn't institute it?

22 MS. MCKNIGHT: Objection.

23 A I don't think it's -- it's in my place to

24 tell the court what they should or shouldn't do.

25 Q And do you think there's anything

Case: 1:18-cv-00357-TSB-KNM-MHW Doc #: 230-9 Filed: 02/20/19 Page: 114 of 152 PAGEID #:

13018
Confidential

TSG Reporting - Worldwide 877-702-9580

Page 115

1 S. Chabot

2 problematic with District 1 wholly being within, within

3 Hamilton County as it is here in this proposed remedial

4 district?

5 MS. MCKNIGHT: Objection.

6 A You have very little representation by a

7 second member of Congress really. You've got a little

8 bit on the east side there but that's it. And I think

9 the people of our area are used to having two people

10 they can go to. And one would have a minimal interest

11 at all in Hamilton County.

12 Q And you've brought it up before, you're

13 familiar with Issue 1, the ballad initiative that was

14 passed with an overwhelming majority in May of this

15 year?

16 MS. MCKNIGHT: Objection.

17 A When I think of Issue 1 now, I think of the

18 drug thing that went down. What was Issue 1? I don't

19 remember.

20 Q The Issue 1 in the May 2018 election?

21 A That's the new thing that the legislature

22 did.

23 Q Yes.

24 A I recall it somewhat.

25 Q So it was passed by the legislature and it

Case: 1:18-cv-00357-TSB-KNM-MHW Doc #: 230-9 Filed: 02/20/19 Page: 115 of 152 PAGEID #:

13019
Confidential

TSG Reporting - Worldwide 877-702-9580

Page 116

1 S. Chabot

2 was then placed on the ballad and voted in by the

3 citizens of Ohio.

4 A All right. That, yes.

5 Q And under that mandate, Cincinnati will

6 have to be kept whole within a congressional district,

7 'is that true?

8 MS. MCKNIGHT: Objection.

9 A Cincinnati would have to be, right, the

10 city of Cincinnati.

11 Q Once that occurs, will that cause

12 Congressional District 1 to be kept within Hamilton

13 County to have that population of the city within one

14 congressional district?

15 MS. MCKNIGHT: Objection.

16 A No.

17 Q And why not?

18 A Because it doesn't have to be in one -- one

19 county.

20 Q Once the city of Cincinnati is kept whole,

21 what other portions of southwest Ohio do you think will

22 be within the congressional district?

23 A I have absolutely no idea.

24 Q Are there any portions of southwest Ohio

25 that you think make the most sense to be included in a

Case: 1:18-cv-00357-TSB-KNM-MHW Doc #: 230-9 Filed: 02/20/19 Page: 116 of 152 PAGEID #:

13020
Confidential

TSG Reporting - Worldwide 877-702-9580

Page 117

1 S. Chabot

2 congressional district with the whole of the city of

3 Cincinnati?

4 A I don't know at this time. We'll have to

5 wait and see what the legislature does and how they

6 look at this.

7 Q Is it your understanding -- you've said

8 that Democrats tend to garner more votes within the

9 urban areas. Would those urban areas include the city

10 of Cincinnati?

11 MS. MCKNIGHT: Objection.

12 A Some of them.

13 Q And would you agree that keeping the city

14 of Cincinnati whole within District 1 would make a more

15 competitive district for a Democratic challenger

16 running against you?

17 MS. MCKNIGHT: Objection.

18 A Depends on what the rest of the district

19 looks like. I won by four points this last time.

20 Sounds like a pretty competitive election to me.

21 Q And we have talked about the city part and

22 then other parts referred to as the county parts of the

23 district. Do you think it makes sense for the city of

24 Cincinnati to be kept in one district so those

25 residents can have their particular interests

Case: 1:18-cv-00357-TSB-KNM-MHW Doc #: 230-9 Filed: 02/20/19 Page: 117 of 152 PAGEID #:

13021
Confidential

TSG Reporting - Worldwide 877-702-9580

Page 118

1 S. Chabot

2 represented?

3 A I think one could argue either way. You

4 could argue it makes sense. You could also say the

5 city should be split and have two representative as it

6 has had for I think the last 200 years.

7 Q And would you agree that currently the

8 eastern half of the city of Cincinnati in District 2 is

9 connected to a number of other counties that are much

10 more rural than the city?

11 A Could you repeat that? I didn't quite

12 catch it.

13 Q Sure. In the current congressional map, if

14 you want to flip back I think it's Exhibit 7.

15 A Okay.

16 Q Would you agree that the eastern half of

17 the city of Cincinnati that's in District 2 --

18 A The eastern half of the city of Cincinnati?

19 Q Yes. Which is in District 2?

20 A Yes.

21 Q It's that portion of District 2 that comes

22 into Hamilton County, is connected to a number of much

23 more rural districts -- excuse me, much more rural

24 counties than the city of Cincinnati is?

25 A I think that's probably true.

Case: 1:18-cv-00357-TSB-KNM-MHW Doc #: 230-9 Filed: 02/20/19 Page: 118 of 152 PAGEID #:

13022
Confidential

TSG Reporting - Worldwide 877-702-9580

Page 119

1 S. Chabot

2 Q And have you faced any issues in Congress

3 where the interests of the residents of the city of

4 Cincinnati are much different than the interests of the

5 residents of Warren County and the more rural persons

6 of the district?

7 MS. MCKNIGHT: Objection.

8 A I don't really have -- I'd have to have

9 some specific comment on it.

10 Q And do you recall the vote related to

11 federal funding of the Cincinnati street car project?

12 A I do remember that.

13 Q And how did you vote on that issue?

14 A I'm not sure if we had a -- was there a

15 congressional vote on that? I don't recall that.

16 Q As far as I understand it there was a

17 question of federal funding for that project.

18 A I think that happened when Driehaus was

19 there and Driehaus voted for it I think. But I'm not

20 absolutely positive.

21 Q Okay.

22 A I wasn't a big fan of the street car. Most

23 of the residents of the city in Cincinnati that I

24 talked to aren't big fans and they're even less fans

25 now that we actually have it because it's a complete

Case: 1:18-cv-00357-TSB-KNM-MHW Doc #: 230-9 Filed: 02/20/19 Page: 119 of 152 PAGEID #:

13023
Confidential

TSG Reporting - Worldwide 877-702-9580

Page 120

1 S. Chabot

2 disaster.

3 Q Okay. And do you think if the city of

4 Cincinnati would be kept whole that would allow the

5 congressional representative for that district to take

6 into account views of everyone, of all of the residents

7 of the city of Cincinnati as opposed to splitting the

8 east side from the west side?

9 MS. MCKNIGHT: Objection.

10 A I would hope that whoever represents

11 whatever portions they represent try to represent the

12 views of all the people within the areas that he or she

13 represents.

14 MS. LEE: Can we go off the record.

15 (Off the record discussion.)

16 BY MS. LEE:

17 Q So turning back to Exhibit 10, which is the

18 proposed remedial District 1. And so the portions of

19 Hamilton County that are added into this district to

20 create this proposed remedial District 1, do you know

21 what the constituents in that area look like? What

22 type of region it is that's been added?

23 MS. MCKNIGHT: Objection.

24 A Not really. I don't know exactly what you

25 mean what they look like.

Case: 1:18-cv-00357-TSB-KNM-MHW Doc #: 230-9 Filed: 02/20/19 Page: 120 of 152 PAGEID #:

13024
Confidential

TSG Reporting - Worldwide 877-702-9580

Page 121

1 S. Chabot

2 Q So is it largely an urban portion has been

3 added that is not currently in District 1 that's in

4 Hamilton County?

5 MS. MCKNIGHT: Objection.

6 A It's a mixture. There's some urban,

7 there's some that's not urban. You've got Blue Ash,

8 you've got Deer Park and Kenwood, Madeira. Those are

9 all, you know, more suburban areas and then you've

10 probably got areas that isn't identified in the city

11 which are more urban so it's kind of a mixture.

12 Q If this was your district, could you

13 represent the constituents in this district?

14 A I hate to speculate, but I would try to do

15 my best for whoever I'm representing. I always do.

16 Q And in this proposed remedial district do

17 you have an idea of what your electoral prospects would

18 look like?

19 MS. MCKNIGHT: Objection.

20 A Not really. I would have to sit down and

21 go through the numbers and all that sort of thing and

22 I've never looked at this district before to my

23 knowledge.

24 Q And we had discussed earlier about the

25 speech at the Lincoln Reagan Day Dinner and the

Case: 1:18-cv-00357-TSB-KNM-MHW Doc #: 230-9 Filed: 02/20/19 Page: 121 of 152 PAGEID #:

13025
Confidential

TSG Reporting - Worldwide 877-702-9580

Page 122

1 S. Chabot

2 reporting on election night that you had said that the

3 Democrats tend to run up the vote in the urban areas

4 and you do better in the county portions of the

5 district; is that right?

6 MS. MCKNIGHT: Objection.

7 A I said something like that apparently and

8 I'm not saying I didn't. I just don't recall exactly

9 what I said.

10 Q And does that -- does the substance of that

11 sound to be true?

12 A The substance of that sounds to be true.

13 Generally urban areas tend to be more Democratic,

14 nonurban areas tend to be more Republican. But, again,

15 more Republican -- depends on what state you're in,

16 too.

17 Q And in the southwest portion of Ohio in the

18 proposed remedial district, this has increased the

19 urban areas that are included in the district from its

20 current composition. Would you agree with that?

21 MS. MCKNIGHT: Objection.

22 A It does do that. If it contains all of

23 Cincinnati by definition it would have more urban

24 areas.

25 Q And in those areas a Democratic candidate

Case: 1:18-cv-00357-TSB-KNM-MHW Doc #: 230-9 Filed: 02/20/19 Page: 122 of 152 PAGEID #:

13026
Confidential

TSG Reporting - Worldwide 877-702-9580

Page 123

1 S. Chabot

2 you think would be more likely to be supported than a

3 Republican candidate; is that true?

4 MS. MCKNIGHT: Objection.

5 A I think in general that would be true.

6 Q And do you think in a district like this a

7 Democratic candidate would then be more competitive

8 running against you?

9 MS. MCKNIGHT: Objection.

10 A When you say they'd be more competitive, I

11 think you would also have to look and see could a

12 Republican candidate be at all competitive in a

13 district like this. I don't know. Again, we would

14 have to look at the numbers.

15 Q We had spoken earlier about constituent

16 groups that you've met with; is that correct?

17 A I remember that coming up, yes.

18 Q And do you ever speak to constituent groups

19 that are invited to speak at particular -- do you ever

20 speak at events that you've been invited to by your

21 constituents?

22 A Yes.

23 Q Have you ever been invited to a League of

24 Women Voters Voter Forum?

25 A The League of Women Voters were involved in

Case: 1:18-cv-00357-TSB-KNM-MHW Doc #: 230-9 Filed: 02/20/19 Page: 123 of 152 PAGEID #:

13027
Confidential

TSG Reporting - Worldwide 877-702-9580

Page 124

1 S. Chabot

2 the debate we just had. They were one of the

3 representative groups that reached out to put that all

4 together and I agreed to appear in the debate or forum

5 or whatever you want to call it. They also do the -- I

6 think it's called the who and what or something, the

7 paper that they put together that goes to the library

8 in different places and we participate in that, answer

9 their questions and put -- they put it out to the

10 public. So, yes.

11 Q And have you ever been invited to an event,

12 a voter engagement event hosted by the League of Women

13 Voters that you did not attend?

14 A I don't recall. We attended the debate

15 this time. You know, we usually do a few debates each

16 campaign, usually three. I don't recall how they were

17 involved in the past.

18 Q Okay.

19 A I've generally done those -- the election

20 things that they put out, the materials that the League

21 of Women Voters puts out, I've generally participated

22 in that. I don't specifically remember not doing

23 something that they wanted but it's possible.

24 Q And do you have any recollection of

25 Hamilton County Young Democrats reaching out to you and

Case: 1:18-cv-00357-TSB-KNM-MHW Doc #: 230-9 Filed: 02/20/19 Page: 124 of 152 PAGEID #:

13028
Confidential

TSG Reporting - Worldwide 877-702-9580

Page 125

1 S. Chabot

2 your office regarding issues surrounding gun control?

3 A They may have. I mean, I've had people

4 reach out to me relative to so-called gun control but I

5 don't recall it being the Young Democrats. They may

6 have. There may have been some of them that were in

7 with a group or something.

8 Q And do you have any recollection of an

9 event this past March that took place throughout the

10 country called the March For Our Lives?

11 A I don't remember something called that but

12 I know there was some large events that took place but

13 I don't remember what they were called.

14 Q And do you recall large events, largely

15 organized and hosted by young people throughout the

16 country surrounding the issue of gun violence,

17 particularly in schools?

18 MS. MCKNIGHT: Objection.

19 A Yes, I do remember that, yeah.

20 Q And do you remember you or your office ever

21 being reached out to regarding that issue specifically?

22 A When you say that issue, do you mean gun

23 control?

24 Q I mean the issue of gun violence

25 particularly within schools.

Case: 1:18-cv-00357-TSB-KNM-MHW Doc #: 230-9 Filed: 02/20/19 Page: 125 of 152 PAGEID #:

13029
Confidential

TSG Reporting - Worldwide 877-702-9580

Page 126

1 S. Chabot

2 A Yes, I remember people reaching out about

3 that, yes.

4 Q And what has your response been to

5 constituents who have reached out concerned about that

6 issue?

7 A I introduced legislation which addressed

8 that issue. It became law.

9 Q What legislation is that?

10 A After the Parkland shooting, there was an

11 effort by Congress to act, actually put something

12 together that would reduce gun violence and

13 vulnerability of kids in the schools.

14 So I met with the head of the FOP in

15 Cincinnati and said, "Hey, look, is there something we

16 could actually do," and we crafted legislation and

17 introduced it along with John Rutherford. He's a

18 congressman from Florida. He was a sheriff prior to

19 coming to Congress. It became part of the, I forget

20 the exact name of the bill, but it was a safety in the

21 schools type legislation.

22 And we introduced it in the House. It

23 passed. They combined his bill and my bill together

24 and passed House and the Senate and President Trump

25 signed it into law. That was specifically in response

Case: 1:18-cv-00357-TSB-KNM-MHW Doc #: 230-9 Filed: 02/20/19 Page: 126 of 152 PAGEID #:

13030
Confidential

TSG Reporting - Worldwide 877-702-9580

Page 127

1 S. Chabot

2 to the violence that we had seen in our schools.

3 Q Is representative Rutherford a Democrat or

4 Republican?

5 A He's a Republican.

6 Q Do you recall having stated in the past

7 that on all legislation that you introduce you intend

8 to have a Democratic co-sponsor?

9 MS. MCKNIGHT: Objection.

10 A I oftentimes do, I try to. So, yes, I

11 usually do have a Democrat. I don't -- there may have

12 been -- well, there were Democrats I think that voted

13 for it this time. But, yes, I oftentimes do have the

14 Democrat co-sponsor the legislation that I introduce.

15 Q And did you seek a Democratic co-sponsor

16 for the safety in schools bill that we were just

17 discussing?

18 A I think we did. I'm not absolutely

19 positive. Usually my staff takes care of reaching out

20 with their staffs. There may have been Democratic

21 representatives that did co-sponsor it.

22 I remember John Rutherford in particular.

23 Q Do you recall what the content of that bill

24 was, what it accomplished?

25 A Yeah, it did a couple of things. It,

Case: 1:18-cv-00357-TSB-KNM-MHW Doc #: 230-9 Filed: 02/20/19 Page: 127 of 152 PAGEID #:

13031
Confidential

TSG Reporting - Worldwide 877-702-9580

Page 128

1 S. Chabot

2 principally, it -- the schools are kind of soft targets

3 out there.

4 What it did was it gave additional federal

5 funding to any school districts that wanted to take up

6 the funding and the funding had to be for certain

7 things. And it was basically to make the school safer.

8 It was training for teachers and guidance

9 counselors and school personnel.

10 It's how to find those kids that have shown

11 any kind of signals or warning signs out there that

12 they may be dangerous, that they may have some mental

13 issues that ought to be dealt with before, you know,

14 tragedy happens. It taught them how to do that and

15 what to do about it and how the schools internally do

16 it.

17 There was also equipment, metal detectors,

18 training as to what you do in an active shooter

19 situation.

20 It allowed money to go for retired police

21 officers, for school resource officers. That was the

22 specific part -- that was the main involvement that I

23 had. Because I was meeting with the FOP head, his name

24 is Dan Hills. He's the head of the FOP in Cincinnati.

25 He had said our people retire after 25 years of

Case: 1:18-cv-00357-TSB-KNM-MHW Doc #: 230-9 Filed: 02/20/19 Page: 128 of 152 PAGEID #:

13032
Confidential

TSG Reporting - Worldwide 877-702-9580

Page 129

1 S. Chabot

2 service. They're in the early 50s. They're the best

3 trained people. They're looking for jobs, security

4 jobs and this and that. They would make great school

5 resource officers. Not all of them but a lot of them.

6 So this allows money to go for that.

7 That's what the legislation did in general.

8 There are other things, too, but that was the main

9 point of it.

10 Q Is it the case that that legislation did

11 not specifically target access to guns but was about

12 resources within the schools themselves? Is that a

13 fair description?

14 A I'd say that's a fair description of it.

15 Q Are you familiar with the local chapters of

16 the A. Philip Randolph Institute?

17 A The A. Philip Randolph Institute? Doesn't

18 ring a bell.

19 Q It is an organization of largely

20 African-American trade unions. Does that ring any bell

21 at all?

22 A Not really. I know what African-Americans

23 are and I know what trade unions are. I don't remember

24 an organization being associated with that.

25 Q Okay. So you have no recollection of being

Case: 1:18-cv-00357-TSB-KNM-MHW Doc #: 230-9 Filed: 02/20/19 Page: 129 of 152 PAGEID #:

13033
Confidential

TSG Reporting - Worldwide 877-702-9580

Page 130

1 S. Chabot

2 reached out to or being invited to any events or sought

3 a meeting with you by the local chapter of the A.

4 Philip Randolph Institute?

5 A Not specifically. Oftentimes I'm aware of

6 it because it's on my schedule. My staff get all kinds

7 of invitations. They first have to figure, am I going

8 to be in town, do I have something else that's

9 conflicting with that and that kind of thing. I

10 usually don't -- there are very few things I'll decide,

11 yeah, I'll put that in the schedule. Usually they put

12 it on there.

13 Q And if you were invited to some sort of

14 constituent or voter engagement event and were also

15 invited to a Republican Party fundraising event, how's

16 the decision made which of the two events you would

17 attend in your schedule?

18 A It would depend whether we accepted one

19 event or another. We try not to conflict things like

20 that. On a Republican fundraising event we would

21 generally be setting it up ourselves. So we wouldn't

22 put it in a time where it would conflict with somebody

23 else's things. So we generally try to minimize those

24 kinds of conflicts so we can attend both.

25 Q And is Lisa, who you mentioned earlier as

Case: 1:18-cv-00357-TSB-KNM-MHW Doc #: 230-9 Filed: 02/20/19 Page: 130 of 152 PAGEID #:

13034
Confidential

TSG Reporting - Worldwide 877-702-9580

Page 131

1 S. Chabot

2 your scheduler, sort of the point person for managing

3 the calender with issues such as conflicts like that?

4 A That's right. Now, we generally have a

5 person on the campaign that's handling campaign events.

6 She doesn't really handle that kind of stuff but she's

7 allowed to put it on the schedule. You have to make

8 sure that you're not using official resources for a

9 political campaign, even in scheduling things.

10 They're a little more understanding because

11 you've got to, they have to coordinate with each other.

12 So we generally have somebody on the

13 campaign that works with her to handle those kinds of

14 things. So it's not just Lisa, but ultimately she's

15 the main person.

16 Q Okay. A couple final questions.

17 Turning back to Exhibit 9, which is the

18 proposed -- the whole proposed map not just District 1?

19 A Let's see. I see it.

20 Q Is there some reason that you think this

21 map wouldn't work as the congressional map for the

22 state of Ohio?

23 MS. MCKNIGHT: Objection.

24 A I can't speak to all the other districts

25 but just looking at mine, I think that the biggest flaw

Case: 1:18-cv-00357-TSB-KNM-MHW Doc #: 230-9 Filed: 02/20/19 Page: 131 of 152 PAGEID #:

13035
Confidential

TSG Reporting - Worldwide 877-702-9580

Page 132

1 S. Chabot

2 is basically for the most part Hamilton County has one

3 vote in the Congress rather than two. So I think their

4 interests are adversely impacted by that.

5 Q And following the 2020 redistricting

6 because the city of Cincinnati has to be kept whole, do

7 you think that will, again, be the case for District 1?

8 MS. MCKNIGHT: Objection.

9 A I think that adversely impacts but it's

10 happened so I'm not -- I mean, it's going to happen. I

11 think it does adversely impact the city of Cincinnati

12 itself. But it's the law so it's the law so we'll

13 follow it.

14 But I don't think just because you did one

15 dumb thing that you have to do another dumb thing to

16 the entire county and have just one basic vote there

17 because that's what you would be doing if you went with

18 this map here.

19 Hamilton County would lose considerable

20 power when we're trying to get federal grants, get

21 federal attention. There would be one of us doing it

22 rather than two. Yes, you would have a little bit over

23 here. But everybody would know that this is a really

24 small part of his or her job.

25 Q And previously you had said that one thing

Case: 1:18-cv-00357-TSB-KNM-MHW Doc #: 230-9 Filed: 02/20/19 Page: 132 of 152 PAGEID #:

13036
Confidential

TSG Reporting - Worldwide 877-702-9580

Page 133

1 S. Chabot

2 that was sought to have happen after the 2011

3 redistricting was to keep Butler County whole and to

4 keep Warren County whole. As to each of those

5 districts, wouldn't that, each of those counties,

6 excuse me, wouldn't it then be the case that for each

7 of those counties there would be a single congressional

8 representative?

9 A It does but we have 88 counties in the

10 state. You know, we have 16 representatives. So

11 you're gonna try to have a number of the counties

12 grouped together and that's so -- it makes sense there.

13 When you have a large county like Hamilton

14 County it doesn't make sense because you really --

15 really, the county is losing power there. They're

16 losing a lot of the ability they have to get resources

17 at the federal level.

18 Right now they have Brad Wenstrup has a lot

19 to say about Hamilton County right now. He'd have much

20 less input on what the county would get here, or

21 whoever's in the district down the road.

22 Q So you think it's sort of materially

23 different if it's a large county or a county with less

24 population that's going to be linked to other counties

25 within a district?

Case: 1:18-cv-00357-TSB-KNM-MHW Doc #: 230-9 Filed: 02/20/19 Page: 133 of 152 PAGEID #:

13037
Confidential

TSG Reporting - Worldwide 877-702-9580

Page 134

1 S. Chabot

2 MS. MCKNIGHT: Objection.

3 A I do, yes, absolutely.

4 Q And can you expand on why that might be?

5 A Well, you don't have much choice when

6 you've got smaller counties. They're gonna be -- you

7 can't come anywhere near putting a congressional

8 district in one of the counties that has 50,000 people

9 in it or whatever they have. So they're gonna have to

10 be joined together. So it makes some sense to have

11 those counties as one. That can be a goal.

12 But you're also not going to have one here

13 in any event, you're gonna have two. So if you're

14 gonna have two representations you might as well have

15 something where both are going to have some clout here

16 in Washington on their behalf. This basically takes

17 that away.

18 That's why they probably shouldn't have

19 done it for the city either but the city sometimes does

20 dumb things, like the street car and I would argue

21 making itself a sanctuary city, I think that's a

22 mistake. They've done it.

23 Now, this is something the legislature did,

24 not the city. Although the city may have had some

25 involvement in that, I don't know.

Case: 1:18-cv-00357-TSB-KNM-MHW Doc #: 230-9 Filed: 02/20/19 Page: 134 of 152 PAGEID #:

13038
Confidential

TSG Reporting - Worldwide 877-702-9580

Page 135

1 S. Chabot

2 Q Do you understand that Issue 1, the

3 redistricting Issue 1 from May, was passed by the

4 entirety of the Ohio citizens through initiative

5 process?

6 A I'm aware of that.

7 Q So it wasn't just the city of Cincinnati

8 that decided it should be put together.

9 A Certainly not. The legislature ultimately

10 passed it and the people voted up or down and my guess

11 is that one tiny part of the issue probably was never

12 thought of by the vast majority of the voters. That

13 was one minor thing in a bigger thing.

14 They wanted to reform Ohio. I voted for

15 it, too. I wanted to reform Ohio. When I say voted

16 for it, I mean as a citizen.

17 But there were things in it which I think

18 were not good, which is fairly common in legislation.

19 We have things pass up here and have a thousand things

20 in here and I like 900 of them and there's a 100 I

21 don't. So do I vote against it because I didn't like

22 the 100 or do I vote for it because -- so these are

23 decisions that we all have to make.

24 Q Sure. In Representative Wenstrup's current

25 district do you know how much of his district is within

Case: 1:18-cv-00357-TSB-KNM-MHW Doc #: 230-9 Filed: 02/20/19 Page: 135 of 152 PAGEID #:

13039
Confidential

TSG Reporting - Worldwide 877-702-9580

Page 136

1 S. Chabot

2 Hamilton County?

3 A I don't. I mean, you can look at a map and

4 say how much. I don't know what percentage it is or

5 anything like that.

6 Q Okay.

7 MS. LEE: That's all I have. Thank you

8 very much for your time, Congressman.

9 MS. MCKNIGHT: I just have a few redirect.

10 EXAMINATION

11 BY MS. MCKNIGHT:

12 Q In your role as a congressman, do

13 constituents contact you?

14 A Yes.

15 Q And how do you respond to constituents when

16 they contact you?

17 A We try to help them. Try to assist them in

18 whatever it is they're contacting us about. Oftentimes

19 it's, you know, could be a matter has to do with the

20 IRS or Social Security or Medicare, a whole range of

21 federal issues. Or they may be wanting to bring their

22 family to Washington and have a tour of the Capital

23 building or school groups come up here. So they

24 contact us and we try to assist them.

25 Q Does your office respond to phone calls?

Case: 1:18-cv-00357-TSB-KNM-MHW Doc #: 230-9 Filed: 02/20/19 Page: 136 of 152 PAGEID #:

13040
Confidential

TSG Reporting - Worldwide 877-702-9580

Page 137

1 S. Chabot

2 A Yes.

3 Q Does your office respond to emails?

4 A Yes.

5 Q And when constituents contact your office,

6 do you or does your office know if they're a Democrat

7 or a Republican?

8 A No. We wouldn't know that.

9 Q And does it matter?

10 A No.

11 Q And when constituents contact your office,

12 do you know if they voted for you or not?

13 A No.

14 Q Does it matter?

15 A No.

16 Q Do you participate in candidate debates?

17 A Yes.

18 Q Do you participate in candidate nights?

19 A Yes.

20 Q Do you participate in candidate forums?

21 A Yes.

22 Q How do you decide which of these events to

23 participate in?

24 A Well, scheduling more than anything else

25 because I'm in Washington usually four days a week and

Case: 1:18-cv-00357-TSB-KNM-MHW Doc #: 230-9 Filed: 02/20/19 Page: 137 of 152 PAGEID #:

13041
Confidential

TSG Reporting - Worldwide 877-702-9580

Page 138

1 S. Chabot

2 I go back to my district when I'm not here and so the

3 first thing would be am I going to be up here or back

4 there. If I'm going to be back there, we try to make

5 as many of them as possible.

6 The only reason we wouldn't make something

7 in general is if there's a conflict or we have

8 something else scheduled or I've told my wife that I

9 was going to do something with the family or something

10 like that.

11 So we make them based upon our ability to

12 get there and that sort of thing.

13 Q And if two different candidates nights were

14 scheduled on the same night, how would you choose

15 between the two?

16 A I generally try to make them both. You

17 know, I try to get the beginning of one and then the

18 tail end of the other. I try to do -- I would try to

19 do them both which wouldn't be at all unusual because I

20 oftentimes will hit several different things. It could

21 be three, four, five events sometimes.

22 Q Does your office fill out the League of

23 Women Voters candidate questionnaire?

24 A Yes. Now, when you say office, it would be

25 my campaign that would do it. Not my official office.

Case: 1:18-cv-00357-TSB-KNM-MHW Doc #: 230-9 Filed: 02/20/19 Page: 138 of 152 PAGEID #:

13042
Confidential

TSG Reporting - Worldwide 877-702-9580

Page 139

1 S. Chabot

2 The campaign would fill it out because it's a campaign

3 type thing.

4 Q How often are you present in your district?

5 A Every weekend and then part -- usually

6 we're up here, in a month, you have four weeks, I know

7 it's a little bit more than that, but in a typical

8 month if you have four weeks, usually there's three

9 weeks we're up here and the one week we're back home.

10 Then the weeks we're up here, we're usually

11 up here Monday through Thursday or Tuesday through

12 Friday so it's usually four days up here and three days

13 back there in general.

14 Now, I'm on the Foreign Affairs Committee

15 where there might be some weekend I'm in Pakistan or

16 something on official congressional business, but in

17 general when I'm not here, I'm back at my district

18 keeping in touch with the people that I represent.

19 Q How many different offices do you have?

20 A I've got my official office here in the

21 Rayburn Building. I've got my official office in

22 Cincinnati, it's in a building called the Carew Tower

23 in downtown Cincinnati. Carew is C-A-R-E-W.

24 And then in Warren County, right in the

25 heart of Warren County in a place called Lebanon, I

Case: 1:18-cv-00357-TSB-KNM-MHW Doc #: 230-9 Filed: 02/20/19 Page: 139 of 152 PAGEID #:

13043
Confidential

TSG Reporting - Worldwide 877-702-9580

Page 140

1 S. Chabot

2 have an office there in Lebanon also.

3 Those are my three official offices, one

4 here, two back in the district, one in each county.

5 And then I have a campaign office. Right

6 now we have two but we're going to be down to one

7 because the election is over.

8 Q Can constituents visit any one of those

9 offices?

10 A Yeah, constituents would usually come to

11 one of the official offices. If it was a campaign

12 matter they would come to one of the campaign offices.

13 Q And do they go to those offices?

14 A Yeah, very -- even if I'm not there because

15 then my staff would be meeting with them. But if I'm

16 there, I'll meet with them. Although my staff takes

17 care of a lot of things.

18 Typically what happens is if it's a

19 constituent matter, my staff takes care of it and if

20 there's a problem and a phone call from me to the IRS

21 or Social Security or something will help or, you know,

22 with an embassy for that matter.

23 Sometimes they've got a family member

24 that's stranded over somewhere and they're trying to

25 get back or it could be a immigration case. So they

Case: 1:18-cv-00357-TSB-KNM-MHW Doc #: 230-9 Filed: 02/20/19 Page: 140 of 152 PAGEID #:

13044
Confidential

TSG Reporting - Worldwide 877-702-9580

Page 141

1 S. Chabot

2 can come in, meet with me, but my staff oftentimes

3 takes care of a lot of this stuff. That's why we have

4 staffs. If it's a problem then they'll tell me and

5 I'll step in.

6 Q And the help you just described that either

7 you give or your staff gives, is that contingent on the

8 constituent being a Republican?

9 A Not at all, no. We would do the same thing

10 no matter -- I would not -- 99 in 99/100ths percent of

11 the time I would have no idea whether they were

12 Republican or Democrat and I would care less.

13 Q If a Democratic voter contacted you, would

14 you listen to their views?

15 A Absolutely.

16 Q About how many people are in your district?

17 A It's approximately 730,000. So

18 three-quarters of a million approximately, little less

19 than that. When they do the census, you know, it's

20 going to change during the course of the year. We're

21 getting a little into the census now. It's a little

22 harder to say what it is now. It's about 550 or so

23 thousand people in Hamilton County in my district and

24 about 220 or 30 or so from in Warren County, they're in

25 my district.

Case: 1:18-cv-00357-TSB-KNM-MHW Doc #: 230-9 Filed: 02/20/19 Page: 141 of 152 PAGEID #:

13045
Confidential

TSG Reporting - Worldwide 877-702-9580

Page 142

1 S. Chabot

2 Q Would you agree that it's your job to

3 represent all members of your district regardless of

4 party affiliation?

5 A Yes, absolutely.

6 MS. MCKNIGHT: Thank you, Congressman. No

7 further questions.

8 EXAMINATION

9 BY MS. LEE:

10 Q As always. I just have a couple more.

11 So regarding constituent contact, you had

12 testified earlier that once in a while certain things

13 may fall through the cracks. Is that true?

14 A Yeah, I'd like to say it's not true but it

15 is.

16 Q We're all human. So if the office of the

17 mayor of Cincinnati contacted your office with a

18 constituent service need, would your office respond to

19 that?

20 A We would, even though he's run against me

21 twice for Congress. I beat him both times.

22 Q And you had just said a little bit ago if

23 you happened to be in the district you may meet with

24 constituents who come?

25 MS. MCKNIGHT: Objection.

Case: 1:18-cv-00357-TSB-KNM-MHW Doc #: 230-9 Filed: 02/20/19 Page: 142 of 152 PAGEID #:

13046
Confidential

TSG Reporting - Worldwide 877-702-9580

Page 143

1 S. Chabot

2 A Sure, yeah.

3 Q How do you determine whether you meet with

4 someone or whether your staff meets with them?

5 A My staff puts it on the schedule and I

6 follow my schedule basically. And if it's constituents

7 that I'm meeting with, I meet with them. If the

8 staff's taking care of it, then I oftentimes wouldn't

9 know, you know, that it's going on because they're

10 handling it. They're really good.

11 Q And do you think it's the case that your

12 staff puts on your schedule meetings that they consider

13 more important for you to take than the ones they

14 handle themselves?

15 MS. MCKNIGHT: Objection.

16 A Could you repeat that?

17 Q Do you think it's the case that your staff

18 puts on your schedule meetings that they think it is

19 important that you take?

20 MS. MCKNIGHT: Objection.

21 A I think that's the case, yes.

22 Q And then they can handle other things on

23 their own without putting it on your schedule?

24 A That's accurate, I think, if I understand

25 what you're saying. The more important things you do

Case: 1:18-cv-00357-TSB-KNM-MHW Doc #: 230-9 Filed: 02/20/19 Page: 143 of 152 PAGEID #:

13047
Confidential

TSG Reporting - Worldwide 877-702-9580

Page 144

1 S. Chabot

2 and the less important things you don't have the time

3 for because you're doing more important things.

4 Q Yes.

5 A So and the staff oftentimes determines

6 that.

7 Q We had looked at an email earlier where you

8 had been emailing with Ms. Towns, the executive

9 assistant to Mr. Farmer. Do you recall that?

10 A I do recall that.

11 Q And you had reached out to Mr. Farmer using

12 your Steve Chabot 11 Gmail address; is that correct?

13 A I don't recall what -- I think that's what

14 it was but I don't recall if it was that. Is that what

15 it was?

16 Q If we want to flip back, it's Exhibit 4 in

17 the pile in front of you?

18 A If that's what it says it was, I don't

19 remember what it was.

20 Q Would you agree that most of your

21 constituents don't have access to you through your

22 Gmail address?

23 A That's probably the case but I don't know.

24 Q Do you have any idea how it's determined

25 which constituents might have access to your Gmail

Case: 1:18-cv-00357-TSB-KNM-MHW Doc #: 230-9 Filed: 02/20/19 Page: 144 of 152 PAGEID #:

13048
Confidential

TSG Reporting - Worldwide 877-702-9580

Page 145

1 S. Chabot

2 address?

3 A Not exactly. I mean, no, I mean, I don't

4 know.

5 Q Do you think it's at all related to the

6 amount they've given in fundraising to your campaigns?

7 A That might be why that's a personal email

8 because if you're talking -- we don't talk about money

9 on our government stuff. We just wouldn't. It sounds

10 like, you know, it was campaign related and therefore

11 it was on my email I guess because we didn't want it to

12 be on official, I'm guessing.

13 I'm assuming that there must have been a

14 fundraising letter sent to them at some point and they

15 responded to that because it sounds like there's two

16 separate things being talked about there.

17 One is, it says something about districting

18 and the other says, oh, by the way, there's $5,000. So

19 I'm assuming that one was campaign and the other things

20 whatever. But I don't recall because I don't recall

21 either one of them.

22 Q So you don't think the fundraising and the

23 redistricting matters were linked together at all?

24 A No, I don't. I think that -- when I saw

25 that I'm trying -- what is it? That's the only thing I

Case: 1:18-cv-00357-TSB-KNM-MHW Doc #: 230-9 Filed: 02/20/19 Page: 145 of 152 PAGEID #:

13049
Confidential

TSG Reporting - Worldwide 877-702-9580

Page 146

1 S. Chabot

2 can figure out. I must have had a fundraising letter

3 and we were talking about something or somebody on my

4 behalf apparently was talking about -- was it saying

5 meeting with him or something? I forget what it said.

6 Q You asked if he had a few minutes to talk

7 this week and it is signed thanks, Steve, but?

8 A I'm guessing, just guessing. I told you

9 there's a whole bunch of people that have my email that

10 are staff people. The campaign people have my email,

11 too.

12 What I'm guessing, this is strictly me --

13 the only thing that makes sense to me here is one of

14 the people on the campaign has my email stuff and they

15 know it can't be on the government, so sent an email

16 from me kind of reaching out to somebody about -- about

17 that. You know, I guess. But I just don't know

18 because it's not on our official stuff. It's on a

19 personal thing from me which is what you should do.

20 You don't want to have your official office

21 reaching out on something like that. It's for me but I

22 don't recollect because I have a number of people that

23 have that and I'm guessing one of the campaign people

24 did it. And I'm guessing that we send the fundraising

25 letters out a number of times a year and we have events

Case: 1:18-cv-00357-TSB-KNM-MHW Doc #: 230-9 Filed: 02/20/19 Page: 146 of 152 PAGEID #:

13050
Confidential

TSG Reporting - Worldwide 877-702-9580

Page 147

1 S. Chabot

2 where we have a fundraiser and we sent out stuff and

3 said hey, I've got fundraiser coming up.

4 And apparently -- Dick Farmer, I know he's

5 a supporter, I know who he is. And he's been a

6 contributor to us and virtually every other Republican

7 and probably a lot of Democrats, too.

8 I'm thinking there were two things going on

9 and that's why they kept it on the one because it --

10 but, again, I was surprised at that as you all are as

11 far as when I saw it and heard about it. That's all I

12 can make of it.

13 Q And do you think it's the case that

14 individuals who give low dollar amounts to your

15 campaign, $20, $100, wouldn't be receiving emails from

16 your personal email address?

17 A I don't know. I didn't send that one.

18 Apparently that one went out under my name but I don't

19 recall sending that myself.

20 Q And when your staffers send email from your

21 Gmail address, do they sign your name off on it?

22 A Oh yeah, yeah. And I think, again, I think

23 that was a campaign person that sent that, when you say

24 staffer. I think that was a campaign person that sent

25 it out. So, I mean, but, again, I'm just trying to

Case: 1:18-cv-00357-TSB-KNM-MHW Doc #: 230-9 Filed: 02/20/19 Page: 147 of 152 PAGEID #:

13051
Confidential

TSG Reporting - Worldwide 877-702-9580

Page 148

1 S. Chabot

2 figure it out.

3 Q Sure.

4 A I'm not saying that is what happened. It's

5 the only thing that makes any sense to me.

6 Q Gotcha.

7 MS. LEE: Thank you.

8 MS. MCKNIGHT: No further questions.

9 Except, for the record, we would like to

10 designate the entire transcript as confidential

11 pursuant to the protective order. We can deal with any

12 issues outside the deposition.

13 We would like to read and sign, please.

14 And, on the record, we would like to order an expedited

15 transcript.

16 (Deposition adjourned at 1:41 p.m.)

17

18 ________________________

19 STEVEN J. CHABOT

20

21 Subscribed and sworn to before me

22 this _____ day of ______________, 2018.

23

24 _________________________________________

25 (Notary Public) MY COMMISSION EXPIRES:__________

Case: 1:18-cv-00357-TSB-KNM-MHW Doc #: 230-9 Filed: 02/20/19 Page: 148 of 152 PAGEID #:

13052
Confidential

TSG Reporting - Worldwide 877-702-9580

Page 149

1 S. Chabot

2 DISTRICT OF COLUMBIA, to wit:

3 I, RONDA J. THOMAS, a Notary Public of the

4 District of Columbia, do hereby certify that the

5 within-named witness personally appeared before me

6 at the time and place herein set out, and after

7 having been duly sworn by me, according to law, was

8 examined by counsel.

9 I further certify that the examination was

10 recorded stenographically by me and this transcript

11 is a true record of the proceedings.

12 I further certify that I am not related to any

13 of the parties, nor in any way interested in the

14 outcome of this action.

15 As witness my hand this 7th day of

16 December, 2018.

17

18 _____________________

19 RONDA J. THOMAS

20 Notary Public

21

22

23

24 My Commission Expires:

25 October 14, 2023

Case: 1:18-cv-00357-TSB-KNM-MHW Doc #: 230-9 Filed: 02/20/19 Page: 149 of 152 PAGEID #:

13053
Confidential

TSG Reporting - Worldwide 877-702-9580

Page 150

1 S. Chabot

2 INDEX

3 December 3, 2018

4

5 WITNESS EXAMINATION BY PAGE

6 Steve J. Chabot Ms. Lee 4

7 Ms. McKnight 136

8 Ms. Lee 142

9

10 Exhibit No. Marked

11 Exhibit 1 Requests for Production 9

12 Exhibit 2 Memorandum in Support of Motion of 35

13 Republican Congressional Delegation

14 Ohio Voters and Ohio Republican Party

15 Organizing to Intervene

16 Exhibit 3 Reply in Further Support of the 54

17 Motion of Republican Congressional

18 Delegation Ohio Voters and Republican

19 Party Organizations to Intervene

20 Exhibit 4 Email String 66

21 Exhibit 5 11/17/2010 Email to Susan Towns 76

22 from Steve Chabot

23 Exhibit 6 Presentation of the National 97

24 Republican Congressional Committee

25 from 2012

Case: 1:18-cv-00357-TSB-KNM-MHW Doc #: 230-9 Filed: 02/20/19 Page: 150 of 152 PAGEID #:

13054
Confidential

TSG Reporting - Worldwide 877-702-9580

Page 151

1 S. Chabot

2 INDEX (cont.)

3 Exhibit 7 Congressional Districts Map of 103

4 Ohio

5 Exhibit 8 First Congressional District of 104

6 Ohio Map

7 Exhibit 9 Remedial Map Submitted by 113

8 Plaintiffs

9 Exhibit 10 Map of Proposed District 1 114

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

Case: 1:18-cv-00357-TSB-KNM-MHW Doc #: 230-9 Filed: 02/20/19 Page: 151 of 152 PAGEID #:

13055
Confidential

TSG Reporting - Worldwide 877-702-9580

Page 152

1 S. Chabot

2 NAME OF CASE:

3 NAME OF WITNESS:

4 Reason Codes:

5 1. To clarify the record.

6 2. To conform to the facts.

7 3. To correct transcription errors.

8 Page ______ Line ______ Reason ______

9 From _____________________ to _____________________

10 Page ______ Line ______ Reason ______

11 From _____________________ to _____________________

12 Page ______ Line ______ Reason ______

13 From _____________________ to _____________________

14 Page ______ Line ______ Reason ______

15 From _____________________ to _____________________

16 Page ______ Line ______ Reason ______

17 From _____________________ to _____________________

18 Page ______ Line ______ Reason ______

19 From _____________________ to _____________________

20 Page ______ Line ______ Reason ______

21 From _____________________ to _____________________

22 Page ______ Line ______ Reason ______

23 From _____________________ to _____________________

24

25 ________________________

Case: 1:18-cv-00357-TSB-KNM-MHW Doc #: 230-9 Filed: 02/20/19 Page: 152 of 152 PAGEID #:

13056