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Mary A. Schweinhagen, RDR, CRR (937) 512-1604

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UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT

SOUTHERN DISTRICT OF OHIO

WESTERN DIVISION

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UNITED STATES OF AMERICA,

Plaintiff,

vs.

YANJUN XU, also known as XU

YANJUN, also known as QU HUI,

also known as ZHANG HUI,

Defendant.

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CASE NO. 1:18-cr-0043

JURY TRIAL

27th of OCTOBER, 2021

9:30 A.M.

VOLUME 8

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TRANSCRIPT OF PROCEEDINGS

BEFORE THE HONORABLE TIMOTHY S. BLACK, JUDGE

UNITED STATES DISTRICT JUDGE

- - -

APPEARANCES:

For the Plaintiff:

Timothy S. Mangan, Esq.

Emily N. Glatfelter, Esq.

Assistant United States Attorneys

221 East Fourth Street, Suite 400

Cincinnati, Ohio 45202

and

Matthew John McKenzie, Esq.

United States Department of Justice

National Security Division

950 Pennsylvania Avenue NW

Washington, D.C. 20530

and

Jacqueline K. Prim

Special Assistant, Paralegal

United States Department of Justice

National Security Division

950 Pennsylvania Avenue NW

Washington, D.C. 20530

For the Defendant:

Ralph William Kohnen, Esq.

Jeanne Marie Cors, Esq.

Sanna-Rae Taylor, Esq.

Taft Stettinius and Hollister

425 East Walnut Street, Suite 1800

Cincinnati, Ohio 45202

and

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Mary A. Schweinhagen, RDR, CRR (937) 512-1604

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Robert K. McBride, Esq.

Amanda Johnson, Esq.

Taft Stettinius and Hollister

50 East RiverCenter Boulevard

Suite 850

Covington, Kentucky 41011

and

Florian Miedel, Esq.

Miedel & Mysliwiec, LLP

80 Broad Street, Suite 1900

New York, New York 10004

For Arthur Gau:

Milagros A. Cisneros, Esq.

Federal Public Defender

District of Arizona

850 W. Adams Street, Suite 201

Phoenix, AZ 85007-2730

Also present: Mae Harmon, Interpreter

Robin Murphy, Interpreter

Yanjun Xu, Defendant

Law Clerk: Cristina V. Frankian, Esq.

Courtroom Deputy: Rebecca Santoro

Stenographer: Mary Schweinhagen, RPR, RMR, RDR, CRR

United States District Court

200 West Second Street, Room 910

Dayton, Ohio 45402

Proceedings reported by mechanical stenography,

transcript produced by computer.

*** *** *** ***

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Mary A. Schweinhagen, RDR, CRR (937) 512-1604

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INDEX OF WITNESSES

WEDNESDAY, OCTOBER 27, 2021

DIRECT CROSS REDIRECT RECROSS

PLAINTIFF'S WITNESSES

ADAM JAMES 6 32 48 50

ARTHUR GAU 53 113 151 160

* * * * *

INDEX OF EXHIBITS

GOVERNMENT'S ADMITTED

80 63

82 97

83 59

84 60

85 94

87a 81

87b 89

88a 74

88b 74

89 107

* * * * *

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Mary A. Schweinhagen, RDR, CRR (937) 512-1604

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P-R-O-C-E-E-D-I-N-G-S 9:38 A.M.

(In open court outside the presence of the jury.)

THE COURT: Good morning. We're here in the open

courtroom, 9:38. I'm sorry to keep you waiting.

The government filed a motion last night in response to

the Court's communication regarding what we talked about at

the break. I'd like to address that later if that's

acceptable so we don't keep the jury waiting. Is that

acceptable to the government?

MR. MANGAN: It is, Your Honor. I don't think it

would come up this morning. If we could have some clarity by

the lunch break, that would help.

THE COURT: Very well. The defense acquiesce with

that as well?

MR. MIEDEL: Yes, Your Honor. I have one or two

items to raise concerning the testimony of Arthur Gau, who is

going to testify later this morning. We can take it up before

he testifies rather than now, but I just wanted to flag it.

THE COURT: Thank you for flagging it.

And is the defense ready for the jury?

MS. CORS: Yes, Your Honor.

THE COURT: And the government as well?

MR. McKENZIE: I am, Your Honor. I just wanted to

point out that we have a new interpreter that would likely

need to be sworn in. I didn't know if you wanted to do that

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Mary A. Schweinhagen, RDR, CRR (937) 512-1604

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before the jury or not.

THE COURT: Thank you for bringing that to my

attention.

Good morning, Madam Interpreter. Would you stand and

take the oath to accurately translate the proceeding.

Do you solemnly swear or affirm that you will accurately

translate the proceedings?

THE INTERPRETER: Yes.

THE COURT: Thank you. You may be seated. Thank

you for being here.

THE INTERPRETER: Thank you.

THE COURT: Let's call for the jury.

THE COURTROOM DEPUTY: All rise for the jury.

(Jury in at 9:41 a.m.)

THE COURT: You may all be seated. Thank you. The

15 jurors have arrived. Good morning and welcome back. I

told you this a couple of times; I want you to believe it

deep, deep inside. The Court and the community and the

participants appreciate your work.

We're going to continue with the testimony of this

gentleman. He's still under oath.

The government may proceed.

ADAM ROBERT JAMES, PLAINTIFF WITNESS, PREVIOUSLY SWORN

MR. McKENZIE: Thank you, Your Honor. For the

record, this is Matthew McKenzie for the government.

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JAMES - DIRECT (McKenzie)

Mary A. Schweinhagen, RDR, CRR (937) 512-1604

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THE COURT: Very well. Can you orient those

microphones, please.

MR. McKENZIE: Is this better, Your Honor?

THE COURT: A little bit.

MR. McKENZIE: I will try to keep my voice up.

THE COURT: That's perfect.

DIRECT EXAMINATION (CONT.)

BY MR. McKENZIE:

Q. Speaking of reorienting, Special Agent James, I'd like to

direct your attention to the forensic analysis that you

conducted of the hard drive that we discussed yesterday.

You mentioned a type of malware that you found called

Sakula. Remind the jury what type of malware Sakula is.

A. Sakula is a remote access trojan that beacons to the

Internet.

Q. Do remote access trojans, are they a type of trojan

horse?

A. They are.

Q. And please remind us, on what date was the Sakula malware

installed on the hard drive you analyzed?

A. January 25th of 2014.

MR. McKENZIE: Your Honor, I ask that we publish

Government's Exhibit 110 on page 1 -- on page 3.

THE COURT: It's been admitted?

MR. McKENZIE: Which has been admitted, yes.

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JAMES - DIRECT (McKenzie)

Mary A. Schweinhagen, RDR, CRR (937) 512-1604

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THE COURT: Yes, you may publish it.

And if the special agent would keep his voice up, please.

THE WITNESS: Yes, sir.

MR. McKENZIE: I apologize. Page 4. My mistake.

BY MR. McKENZIE:

Q. Just to again get us reoriented, directing your attention

to the first message sent on January 25, 2014, will you please

read that message?

A. "The horse is planted. This morning."

Q. Who sent that message.

A. Tian Xi.

MR. McKENZIE: To refresh our recollection on who

Tian Xi is, may I please publish Government's Exhibit 111,

page 6, which is in evidence?

THE COURT: Yes.

BY MR. McKENZIE:

Q. Directing your attention to the top right column, do you

see the name Tian Xi?

A. I do.

Q. Directing your attention to the first sentence of the

first full paragraph, does it identify Tian Xi as a

manufacturing engineer?

A. It does.

MR. McKENZIE: Okay. I would like to return one

more time to Government's Exhibit 110, page 4?

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JAMES - DIRECT (McKenzie)

Mary A. Schweinhagen, RDR, CRR (937) 512-1604

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THE COURT: Yes.

BY MR. McKENZIE:

Q. Directing your attention to the first message of January

25, 2014, to whom did Tian send that message?

A. Xu Yanjun.

Q. Okay. I think we are now back to where we were

yesterday.

I'd like to return to your forensic analysis. Yesterday

you discussed the Sakula malware, but you also mentioned a

second type of malware that you discovered. Will you remind

us what that program is called?

A. That program is called plugX.

Q. How many types of variants of plugX did you find on

the -- on the hard drive?

A. There were two different versions of plugX on the hard

drive.

Q. Will you explain to the jury what it means to have

multiple versions of plugX?

A. What it means to have multiple versions of plugX is

there are actually two sets of files related to the plugX

malware that were independent of each other.

Q. Did you analyze both sets of files?

A. I did.

Q. Did both of them work?

A. No, they did not both work.

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JAMES - DIRECT (McKenzie)

Mary A. Schweinhagen, RDR, CRR (937) 512-1604

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Q. Tell the jury what you mean by that.

A. So the plugX malware is composed of several different

files that it needs to have in order to operate correctly.

One of the variants of plugX, one of the files appeared to

be corrupted, and so it did not run properly when you

attempted to run it. Or when I attempted to run it.

Q. And what about the other variant of plugX? Did that

work?

A. The other variant did work properly.

Q. What type of malware is plugX?

A. PlugX is a remote access trojan.

Q. And what happened when you ran the variant of plugX that

worked?

A. The variant that successfully ran would issue a beacon

to a domain on the Internet.

Q. Were you able to determine what that domain was?

A. I was.

Q. And what was that domain?

A. The domain for the variant of plugX that worked was

ns24.dnsdojo.com.

Q. Do you sometimes refer to that as dnsdojo.com?

A. I do.

Q. What does it mean in plain English that the program

beaconed to this dnsdojo.com?

A. The beacon to dnsdojo.com was a way for the malware to

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JAMES - DIRECT (McKenzie)

Mary A. Schweinhagen, RDR, CRR (937) 512-1604

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check in with the computer intruders that intended to

control it.

Q. Based on your analysis of the hard drive, did the plugX

program actually beacon out to dnsdojo.com?

A. From my analysis of the hard drive, I could not

determine that.

Q. Were you able to determine that it was designed to do so?

A. Yes.

Q. Are you familiar with the term "Crowd Strike"?

A. I am.

Q. What is Crowd Strike?

A. Crowd Strike is a US information security and incident

response company.

Q. Does Crowd Strike publish publicly available blog posts

about hacking activities?

A. They do.

Q. Directing your attention to on or about February 25,

2014, did there come a time that you became aware of a blog

post on Crowd Strike?

MS. CORS: Your Honor, objection.

THE COURT: Basis?

MS. CORS: Hearsay.

MR. McKENZIE: I haven't gotten into the substance

of anything yet.

THE COURT: We are not there yet. Overruled.

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JAMES - DIRECT (McKenzie)

Mary A. Schweinhagen, RDR, CRR (937) 512-1604

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BY MR. McKENZIE:

Q. Did you become aware of a blog post on Crowd Strike?

A. I was aware that there was a blog post.

Q. Without getting into the details, what was the general

topic of the post?

A. The general topic of the post was computer intrusion

activity targeting French aerospace.

Q. Was that post published on the Internet?

A. It was.

Q. I'd like to direct your attention back to Government's

Exhibit 110, page 4. And I'd like to begin with the messages

on February 25, 2014. Will you please read just the first

message?

A. "Call me back as soon as possible."

Q. Who sent that message?

A. Xu Yanjun.

Q. To whom did he send it?

A. Chai Meng.

Q. On what date was this message sent?

A. February 25th of 2014.

Q. On what date did Crowd Strike publish the blog post about

hacking activities targeting French aerospace?

A. February 25th of 2014.

Q. I'd like to read the remaining messages on the page. I

will read the messages sent by Chai Meng.

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JAMES - DIRECT (McKenzie)

Mary A. Schweinhagen, RDR, CRR (937) 512-1604

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So please read the next message.

A. "What does Chen mean?"

Q. "Chen is still reporting, and I'm waiting for him to come

out."

A. "Ah. How will Chen Li react to this matter? The mail

has been forwarded to your email address."

MR. McKENZIE: Could we please go to page 5?

THE COURT: Yes.

BY MR. McKENZIE:

Q. Let us continue with the next two messages.

"Okay."

A. "The part with the red marking in the attachment, is

that being flagged by Suzhou's investigation?"

Q. Who sent that last message?

A. Xu Yanjun.

Q. To whom did he send it?

A. Chai Meng.

Q. Where is Safran Suzhou located?

A. In Suzhou.

Q. And who is the parent company of Safran Suzhou?

A. Safran Group.

Q. What company owns the computer that you analyzed?

A. Safran.

Q. In what company -- in what country is Safran located?

A. They are located in France.

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JAMES - DIRECT (McKenzie)

Mary A. Schweinhagen, RDR, CRR (937) 512-1604

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Q. Will you please read the next message.

A. "Your QQ."

Q. Do you know what "QQ" stands for or what "QQ" is?

A. I do.

Q. What is QQ?

A. QQ is -- the most common thing it's used for is a

mobile messaging app.

Q. Is it popular in China?

A. It is.

Q. We will go through these messages. I will read Song

Sicheng. He responded with a series of numbers.

Please read the next message.

A. "Received. Sent already."

Q. "Okay. I am receiving it."

Directing your attention to the next set of messages,

will you please read the -- just the next message?

A. "What does Chen mean by heaping the responsibility upon

me and furthermore having the guest to find Gu?"

Q. Who sent that message?

A. Xu Yanjun.

Q. To whom did he send it?

A. Chai Meng.

Q. All right. We will read the next exchange. I will read

the parts of Chai Meng. Please read the next message.

A. "Isn't it like putting a noose on his own neck?"

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JAMES - DIRECT (McKenzie)

Mary A. Schweinhagen, RDR, CRR (937) 512-1604

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Q. "I don't know. I told him the French device was seized.

He immediately stated that he had foresight. As to matter of

finding Gu, he never told me about it."

Let's pause there for a moment.

What country did the hard drive you analyzed come from?

A. It came from France.

Q. I'd like to take a pause from Government's Exhibit 110

and turn to Government's Exhibit 111, page 1.

Directing your attention to the top of the screen next to

"Name," will you please read the name?

A. Gu Gen.

Q. Scrolling down to the middle of the page where it says

"Position," will you please read the position?

A. "Senior IT infrastructure manager and information

security officer."

Q. Scrolling to the bottom of the screen underneath the red

seal, will you please read the company?

A. "Safran Beijing Enterprise Management Company, Ltd.,

Suzhou Branch.

Q. Thank you.

MR. McKENZIE: I'd like to return to Government's

Exhibit 110, which is in evidence. I believe we were on page

5.

THE COURT: Very well.

BY MR. McKENZIE:

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JAMES - DIRECT (McKenzie)

Mary A. Schweinhagen, RDR, CRR (937) 512-1604

15

Q. Directing your attention to the message sent at 3:10 p.m.

We'll continue reading with you reading the part of Xu Yanjun

and I'll read Chai Meng.

A. "I wanted to call him a son of a bitch. He stated the

entire thing led to an exposing is because what the guest

has planted in the French device."

Q. In the term or in the context of a cyber intrusion case,

what does "planted" mean?

A. To install.

Q. All right. The next message was sent at 3:12 p.m.

"It's my guess to prove his brilliance."

A. "It feels bitterly disappointing to have leaders like

that."

"Can you suggest not letting the guest go to find Gu?

First, the guest is not exposed; two, Gu doesn't have the

power to decide. Thirdly, Gu would report the situation to

me at any time."

Q. We will continue on to the first message from February

26, 2014. Will you please read the first message?

A. "France is letting Little Gu to check out this record,

ns24.dnsdojo.com. Does it have anything to do with you

all?"

Q. Who sent that message?

A. Xu Yanjun.

Q. To whom did he send it?

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JAMES - DIRECT (McKenzie)

Mary A. Schweinhagen, RDR, CRR (937) 512-1604

16

A. Chai Meng.

Q. In what country is Safran located?

A. They are located in France.

Q. Who did Gu Gen work for?

A. Safran Suzhou.

Q. To what domain did the plugX malware you found on the

hard drive beacon?

A. Ns24.dnsdojo.com.

Q. At 3:08 Chai Meng responded, "Let me ask."

Directing your attention to the next message sent on

February 27, 2014, will you please read that message?

A. "France is asking Little Gu to inspect this record,

ns24.dnsdojo.com. Is it related to you?"

Q. To what domain did the plugX malware beacon?

A. Ns24.dns.dojod.com.

Q. Directing your attention back to Government's Exhibit

111, page 1.

MR. McKENZIE: And if I may publish to the jury,

Your Honor.

THE COURT: Yes. It's been admitted, right?

MR. McKENZIE: Yes, Your Honor.

BY MR. McKENZIE:

Q. Scrolling down to "Position." Will you read Gu Gen's

position?

A. The senior IT infrastructure manager and information

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JAMES - DIRECT (McKenzie)

Mary A. Schweinhagen, RDR, CRR (937) 512-1604

17

security officer.

Q. Based on your years of experience in information

technology and security and work in cyber intrusion

investigations, what is the role of senior IT and security

officers in investigating cyber intrusions for a company?

A. Generally, your information security office would be

the office that conducts computer or -- well, intrusion,

computer intrusion investigations into the company.

Q. I'd like to direct your attention back to Government's

Exhibit 110, page 5, which is in evidence.

I'd like to move on now to the message sent on -- the

messages sent on March 11, 2014. Will you please read the

first message?

A. "When did Gu ask you? When did France ask you?"

Q. Who sent that message?

A. Xu Yanjun.

Q. To whom did he send it?

A. Tian Xi.

Q. I will read the messages sent by Tian Xi.

"Gu received an email from the French side, asked me

yesterday."

A. "Have you seen the email?"

Q. "No."

What country is Safran located in or headquartered in?

A. They are headquartered in France.

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JAMES - DIRECT (McKenzie)

Mary A. Schweinhagen, RDR, CRR (937) 512-1604

18

Q. Could we please see the next page.

For March 17th, will you please read the messages sent by

Xu Yanjun, and I will read the messages sent by Tian Xi?

A. "Anything new? I sought out Little Gu last week and

current France has not finding suspicious documents in the

record."

Q. "Nothing."

A. "Should there be something new be prompt notifying me

and I will communicate with Little Gu."

Q. "Understand."

Directing your attention now to April 17, 2014, messages,

let's read the first three messages, you reading those sent by

the defendant, I'll read those sent by Tian Xi.

A. "Of the matter, any new situation?"

Q. "No."

A. "Good."

Q. Directing your attention to the next message that was

sent, will you please read the message?

A. "Any updates on that incident?"

Q. Who sent the message?

A. Xu Yanjun.

Q. To whom did he send it?

A. Gu Gen.

Q. Who does Gu Gen work for?

A. Safran Suzhou.

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JAMES - DIRECT (McKenzie)

Mary A. Schweinhagen, RDR, CRR (937) 512-1604

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Q. I will read Gu's response.

"Still checking. They found that someone had connected

to our server via a tool called psexec. The period is from

July last year to February this year."

Will you please read the next message?

A. "No conclusion?"

Q. Directing your attention to the next message, the second

message sent at 9:46 a.m., will you please read that message?

A. The latest status from Suzhou: They found an intrusion

to our server through a psexec tool. The time frame is from

July last year to February this year."

Q. Who sent that message?

A. Xu Yanjun.

Q. To whom did he send it?

A. Chai Meng.

Q. And what is the location of Safran's subsidiary in China?

A. Suzhou.

Q. Directing your attention to the next message sent at 9:55

a.m., did Gu Gen send a message to the defendant which said,

"So far, no. They will examine by remotely connecting to this

server"?

A. He did.

Q. How did the defendant respond?

A. "Do they think China is hacking them?"

Q. And will you please read Gu's response?

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JAMES - DIRECT (McKenzie)

Mary A. Schweinhagen, RDR, CRR (937) 512-1604

20

A. "Don't think so."

Q. Directing your attention now to the messages sent on

August 18, 2014. Who sent the first message that we see on

that date?

A. Xu Yanjun.

Q. To whom did he send it?

A. Tian Xi.

Q. Please read the defendant's messages. I'll read Tian's

response.

A. "About that matter, any new situation?"

Q. "No new news. Should be an unsolved mystery."

A. "Ho, ho."

MR. McKENZIE: For a final time, I would like to

return to Government's Exhibit 111, page 1, which is in

evidence, Your Honor.

BY MR. McKENZIE:

Q. Will you please read the title of the document which is

displayed at the top of the screen?

A. "Employment Dismissal Record Form for Employers of

Suzhou Industrial Park."

Q. Please read the name that's listed at the top of the

screen.

A. Gu Gen.

Q. Scrolling down and directing your attention to the middle

of the screen, what was Gu's position?

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JAMES - DIRECT (McKenzie)

Mary A. Schweinhagen, RDR, CRR (937) 512-1604

21

A. Senior IT infrastructure manager and information

security officer.

Q. When it says "Type of" -- directing your attention to the

box below it, next to "Type of Contract Dissolution

(Termination)," which box has been selected?

A. The box for "Employer Initiated Dissolution" is

highlighted.

Q. Scrolling down, who is listed as the employer?

A. Safran Beijing Enterprise Management Company, Ltd.,

Suzhou Branch.

Q. And directing your attention to that same box, what is

listed as the date?

A. November 28 of 2018.

Q. I'd like to direct your attention now to page 6 of the

same exhibit.

Directing your attention to the top left. Who is the

sender of this letter?

A. Safran Aircraft Engines, Suzhou Co., Ltd.

Q. Who is the recipient of the letter?

A. Tian Xi.

Q. In the -- in that same column, what is the date of the

letter?

A. It appears to be November 13th of 2018.

Q. As displayed on the screen currently to your bottom left,

what is the title of this letter?

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JAMES - DIRECT (McKenzie)

Mary A. Schweinhagen, RDR, CRR (937) 512-1604

22

A. "Re: Termination Letter."

MR. McKENZIE: If we can scroll down to where we can

begin with "Dear Sir."

BY MR. McKENZIE:

Q. Will you please read the English section of this letter?

A. "Dear Sir,

"Following our meeting on October 31, 2018, the company

has decided to dismiss you from your position of

manufacturing engineer. This decision is justified by the

following reasons:

"You have materially breached the employer's rules and

regulation. Therefore, the company hereby terminates your

employment contract in accordance with its Article 7 and PRC

applicable laws, including Article 39 of the Labor Contract

Law of the PRC. Your employment contract entered with the

company on December 10, 2007, will terminate with immediate

effect. Therefore, you will leave the company on November

13, 2018.

"In consideration of the above, the company will not

pay you any compensation.

"Before leaving the company, please surrender any and

all relevant work, documents, equipment, and property,

together with all keys, relating to the company and/or any

of its clients to Patrick Calero.

"As from the date of the termination of your

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JAMES - DIRECT (McKenzie)

Mary A. Schweinhagen, RDR, CRR (937) 512-1604

23

employment, you will remain bound by the confidentiality

undertaking stipulated in your employment contract which

stipulates that you shall keep strictly secret and

confidential, and not disclose to any third party any and

all technical, economic, financial, or marketing information

acquired from the company and/or obtained because of your

activities in the company.

"The company reserves all rights to bring suits,

claims, or any other actions against you.

"Yours sincerely."

Q. And then what is -- who is listed as the company sending

the letter?

A. Safran Aircraft Engines, Suzhou Co., Ltd.

THE COURT: Counsel, I'd like to take a break at an

appropriate point.

MR. McKENZIE: Perfect timing, Your Honor. The

government has no further questions.

THE COURT: Very well. We are going to recess for

20 minutes, until 10:30.

Members of the jury, as you know, please do not discuss

the case among yourselves or with anyone else. No independent

research. Continue to keep an open mind.

We'll rise as you leave.

THE COURTROOM DEPUTY: All rise for the jury.

(Jury out at 10:09 a.m.)

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JAMES - DIRECT (McKenzie)

Mary A. Schweinhagen, RDR, CRR (937) 512-1604

24

THE COURT: Jury's left the room and the door is

closed. We're going to break until 10:30, at least as to the

jury. That's my intention.

We can chat in 15 minutes or the issues that are arising

may not require attention yet. When is the witness to be

called that Mr. --

THE INTERPRETER: Your Honor, the interpreter is

having a hard time hearing you. I'm sorry.

THE COURT: That's okay.

Do I need to address the defense's concerns about Arthur

Gau now from the government's perspective?

MR. MANGAN: He is the next witness. It's a matter

of whether you wanted to wait until the next break or not.

We're fine either way.

THE COURT: Why don't we be seated and hear the

issue. We're outside the presence of the jury. We're talking

about the next witness.

Mr. Miedel, forget my lapse. I know exactly who you are.

MR. MIEDEL: You can just keep calling me the New

York lawyer. That's okay.

THE COURT: If you can take the mask off and tell me

what I can call you.

MR. MIEDEL: The New York lawyer.

THE COURT: I didn't want to do that.

MR. MIEDEL: Your Honor, I wanted to raise this

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JAMES - DIRECT (McKenzie)

Mary A. Schweinhagen, RDR, CRR (937) 512-1604

25

issue because, as I said, Arthur Gau is the next witness. And

according to the government's exhibit book, they, I think,

will attempt to introduce Exhibit 81a and 81b through Arthur

Gau.

Exhibit 81 is a Chinese letter, in Chinese, and 81b is

the English translation of it. And it essentially is a typed

letter that Arthur Gau will testify was given to him in 2003,

purportedly by an individual named Zha, Z-H-A, Rong, R-A-N-G

[sic], who I think the government will argue was somehow

associated with MSS, or at least later was.

And that letter contains a number of questions about what

seemed to be engineering questions or problems. We object to

the introduction of that exhibit for a couple of reasons. The

first is that it is hearsay. It is an out-of-court statement

obviously made, proposed for the truth of the matter because

the government wants to show that the document is asking

Arthur Gau specific engineering questions or presents

engineering issues that they want him to respond to.

There is no applicable hearsay exception because this

letter was created and given to Arthur Gau ten years before

the beginning of the conspiracy in this case. It was given in

2003. The conspiracy begins, according to the indictment, in

2013.

And if it's not being introduced for the truth, then it

has no relevance, because if it is not for purposes of the

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JAMES - DIRECT (McKenzie)

Mary A. Schweinhagen, RDR, CRR (937) 512-1604

26

charged conspiracy, the letter itself does not ask for any

specific trade -- it doesn't ask for the -- Mr. Gau to reveal

trade secrets. As noted, it was written 10 years before the

conspiracy. At that point in 2003, Mr. Xu was not involved in

that. There is no evidence that he was even working with Zha

Rong at that time. There is no evidence that Zha Rong was

working for MSS at the time. Arthur Gau will testify,

presumably, that he believe that Zha Rong was working for

NUAA.

In terms of relevance, it is absolutely more prejudicial

than probative, again because -- the probative value is

minimal again because it occurred ten years before the charged

conspiracy.

The document is signed by Zha Rong -- it's typed, so it's

not signed but it's typed with his name, but we don't actually

have any way of knowing who wrote it. It was not given to

Arthur Gau by Zha Rong; it was given to him by somebody else.

The document doesn't actually ask him to reveal any trade

secrets.

And I think that what the problem is, the prejudice is

that the jury could mistakenly conclude that this was a

decades-long pattern in an effort to get Mr. Gau to cough up

trade secrets when, in fact, there is -- this document doesn't

advance that theory at all. And the jury could mistakenly

consider it to be meaningful when it's not. Thank you.

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JAMES - DIRECT (McKenzie)

Mary A. Schweinhagen, RDR, CRR (937) 512-1604

27

THE COURT: When did this issue -- when did you

become aware of it?

MR. MIEDEL: Well, I was aware of it for a while

but, again, Mr. Gau wasn't scheduled to be testifying until

today. So I notified the government of it this morning. I

think they are prepared to argue it.

THE COURT: The Court prefers to get a heads-up.

MR. MIEDEL: I understand.

THE COURT: The government wish to be heard?

MR. MANGAN: Yes, Your Honor. What I would say in

response is, first of all, this does pertain to an individual

named Zha Rong, and there's already been evidence submitted in

the case relating to Mr. Zha Rong and his relationship to the

defendant. As we've asserted, he is the direct supervisor of

the defendant within the MSS.

What we are going to go through with Arthur Gau is a

number of trips that he took over to China and that he met

with Zha Rong on a number of those trips and then eventually

was introduced to the defendant.

And so our assertion, Your Honor, is that the

relationship started with Zha Rong. It was more or less

passed over to the defendant, to kind of continue with the

relationship in later visits, and that will be the heart of

the testimony, will be these later visits. However, to

explain sort of where it all started, his first visits were,

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JAMES - DIRECT (McKenzie)

Mary A. Schweinhagen, RDR, CRR (937) 512-1604

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you know, back in that time period, when he went back to China

in, you know, the year 2000 and so on.

When he got back to the U.S. after one of these visits

where he met with an NUAA professor and he met with Zha Rong,

at that time the son of the professor showed up at Mr. Gau's

house in the U.S. and handed him this letter. So in the

letter it is written and signed by Zha Rong asking him to see

if he's willing to do a project that would prepare a lot of

technical information.

So from our standpoint, Your Honor, there is two things.

One, to the extent it is simply a question or it is asking him

to do work and setting forth what they are asking for, that is

not hearsay. It's simply a question or it's a request or a

demand. Those are not assertions of fact.

In addition, Your Honor, to the extent any of the letter

would be interpreted as an assertion of fact, we would assert

that statements by Mr. Zha Rong are statements of a

co-conspirator and therefore also would be admissible.

As to the time frame, Your Honor, this is really -- we

understand we are limited by the years in the indictment

regarding the defendant's conduct. And that is from 2013, you

know, to the time of his arrest. This is kind of introductory

evidence to help the witness explain where the relationship

started and, you know, then ultimately explain where it went

in the years of 2016 through 2017.

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JAMES - DIRECT (McKenzie)

Mary A. Schweinhagen, RDR, CRR (937) 512-1604

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THE COURT: So how is the letter necessary? Why

can't Gau just explain the origins of their relationship?

MR. MANGAN: He can, Your Honor. What we wanted to

also bring out was that at one point Zha Rong did make an ask

for him to do technical work that he had declined. And then

there is a break in time, and then the relationship is

restarted. So we did see some significance in that.

MR. MIEDEL: Your Honor, may I respond?

THE COURT: Yes, you get the reply.

MR. MIEDEL: A couple things. First of all, while

the government has some evidence that Zha Rong worked with

Mr. Xu or was his supervisor in, I don't know, 2015, 2016,

that's 13 years after this letter. There is zero evidence

that Zha Rong worked with Mr. Xu in 2003.

Secondly, to the extent that the government is simply

suggesting that this letter asked for, quote, technical work,

that's irrelevant. The issue at this trial is whether Mr. Xu

conspired or attempted to gain trade secrets, not technical

work. But it is -- and so there is a ten-year gap between any

correspondence between Mr. Gau in 2003 and Mr. Zha Rong in

2003 and the next time that they talk. So the suggestion that

there is some sort of pattern or a beginning of a relationship

is simply belied by -- will be belied by the testimony of

Mr. Gau. There was no contact between them for a decade. And

so it is simply way outside the scope of the conspiracy. It

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JAMES - DIRECT (McKenzie)

Mary A. Schweinhagen, RDR, CRR (937) 512-1604

30

cannot -- you cannot be a co-conspirator outside the scope of

the conspiracy. And so it's just, I think, improper to admit

this document.

And I think -- I agree with Your Honor that Mr. Gau can

certainly talk about his visits to China in 1997 and 2000 and

2002 and who he met there if he wants, but the introduction of

this document is prejudicial.

THE COURT: The Court sustains the defendant's

objection. What Zha Rong may have been doing in 2003 is not

relevant, the background as to how Mr. Gau came to be involved

with the defendant, and he can explain that, he can explain, I

suppose, that he knew Zha Rong in 2003 and later met the

defendant.

If the defendant on cross questions Gau's explanation of

how he initially came to meet Zha Rong and, later, defendant,

then, by all means, the letter would start to become relevant.

But as an initial matter, Gau can explain it as an initial

matter without the letter, and the objection is sustained.

We're going to go into our recess unless there is

something else I need to address outside the presence of the

jury at this moment. Is there from the government?

MR. MANGAN: No, Your Honor.

THE COURT: The defense?

MR. MIEDEL: No, Your Honor. Thank you.

THE COURT: We're in recess.

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JAMES - DIRECT (McKenzie)

Mary A. Schweinhagen, RDR, CRR (937) 512-1604

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THE COURTROOM DEPUTY: All rise. This court's now

in recess.

(Recess from 10:21 until 10:41 a.m.)

THE COURT: Back in the courtroom late. The jury's

not yet here.

We've had some drama. When my daughters used to live at

home with my wife and me, we had drama every day. I am well

trained in drama. It arises out of primarily the fact that

the second interpreter who had joined us today has indicated

that she typically translates hospital proceedings and does

not feel that she is adequately trained to assist us in a

courtroom that's intimidating with a bunch of lawyers. And I

appreciate her speaking the truth, and I have released her.

That means we're going to have to go in chunks as we've

been doing previously. We're going to work as hard as we can

to get a second one because the current interpreter is

whipped. But she has agreed with me that she will take a deep

breath out of recognition that we're going to take short

breaks.

So we can call for the jury now.

THE COURTROOM DEPUTY: All rise for the jury now.

(Jury in at 10:44 a.m.)

THE COURT: You may all be seated. The 15 jurors

have rejoined us.

And I kept you waiting again. And I apologize for that.

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JAMES - CROSS (Cors)

Mary A. Schweinhagen, RDR, CRR (937) 512-1604

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I hate that. My mother would be all over me if I were keeping

a bunch of important people waiting. But there are times when

you leave that I have to address stuff that I need to deal

with outside your presence. The long break here had nothing

to do with any of the lawyers or the parties. I had to deal

with something. It's on me. I hope you will forgive me.

So we will continue with testimony. Redirect, is that

right?

MR. McKENZIE: Cross-examination at this time, Your

Honor.

THE COURT: Cross-examination.

MS. CORS: Thank you, Your Honor.

THE COURT: You may approach.

The witness remains under oath. The attorney for the

defense has an opportunity to ask questions.

MS. CORS: Thank you, Your Honor. And if I go too

fast, I assume someone will let me know to slow down so that

the interpreter can keep up.

THE COURT: You better believe it.

CROSS-EXAMINATION

BY MS. CORS:

Q. Good morning, Special Agent. How are you today?

A. I'm good. How are you?

Q. Good.

Over the past couple days you have been asked to read

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JAMES - CROSS (Cors)

Mary A. Schweinhagen, RDR, CRR (937) 512-1604

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from a number of text messages involving Mr. Xu, correct?

A. I have.

Q. And were these documents that you obtained through any

forensic analysis you conducted?

A. The text messages were not.

Q. Okay. Where did you get those text messages from?

A. I received them from the search warrant data from the

Cincinnati -- Cincinnati case.

Q. And you testified regarding your background in cyber

counterintelligence, correct? And computer security, and

explained to the jury much of the education you have had

relating to computers.

Do you have any training as an engineer?

A. I do not have any training as an engineer.

Q. And any training in the aviation field?

A. I do not.

Q. Okay. Thank you.

Now, you have testified about events in Suzhou relating

to what I believe you described as the insertion of a USB

drive into a computer in January of 2014, correct? January

25, 2014?

A. Yes.

Q. Okay. What I'd like to do is walk through the timeline

of events that you've testified to. So as I understand it, on

January 25, 2014, a USB was inserted into the computer of

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JAMES - CROSS (Cors)

Mary A. Schweinhagen, RDR, CRR (937) 512-1604

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Mr. Hascoet, correct?

A. That is correct.

Q. And that occurred in, you believe and have testified, his

office in Suzhou; is that correct?

A. I don't know where it was inserted physically.

Q. Okay. So you don't know where it was inserted. But at

some point on that date, based on your forensic analysis, this

USB drive was inserted into his computer. Is that fair?

A. That is correct.

Q. And you testified that on that same day, from that USB

drive, a certain virus malware was placed on the computer of

Mr. Hascoet, correct?

A. That is correct.

Q. And then I believe you testified that shortly thereafter

you read some text messages, I believe it was maybe the day

after, where there were communications about someone looking

at that computer, correct?

A. That is correct.

Q. And can you explain to the jury again what that meant to

you?

A. What that means to me is somebody verified that the

computer had beaconed in, and they would have had the

ability to look at files on the computer if they wanted to.

Q. So in or around the 25th, 26th, based on your review of

that computer and what happened with that malware and the

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JAMES - CROSS (Cors)

Mary A. Schweinhagen, RDR, CRR (937) 512-1604

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beaconing, it's your understanding that at that point in time

someone who had access to this server, wherever it was, would

have had the ability to access the computer of Mr. Hascoet,

correct?

A. That is correct.

Q. And that would include looking at items on the computer;

is that correct?

A. That is correct.

Q. Okay. And I believe you mentioned that would also

provide access to upload or download documents; is that

correct?

A. Upload or download files.

Q. Files, okay.

A. Yes.

Q. And I believe, based on your testimony, that that laptop

became connected to that server, I think, around the 27th of

January of '14. Does that sound correct to you?

A. There was evidence on the hard drive that it -- the

Sakula malware connected outbound as of that date.

Q. And that was to that domain you were talking about

earlier; is that correct?

A. Yes, that's correct.

Q. And what was that domain again?

A. There was two domains. One was oa.ameteksen.com, and

the other one was secure.safran-group.com.

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JAMES - CROSS (Cors)

Mary A. Schweinhagen, RDR, CRR (937) 512-1604

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Q. And then on or around January 30th, was that when, based

on your forensic analysis, some additional malware virus, the

key logger, was installed on that computer?

A. I believe that is correct.

Q. Okay. And at the time -- strike that. Then near the end

of January, around January 31, 2014, I believe in your report

there is an indication that the computer starts communicating

with secure.safran-group.com; is that correct?

A. The computer would have continued to communicate to

that domain, yes.

Q. Okay. So it continues to communicate, continues to

provide access. Whoever has access to that domain has access

to Mr. Hascoet's computer, correct?

A. That would be correct.

Q. Okay. And then when did that computer, from your

recollection, stop communicating with that domain?

A. Based on the evidence available on the hard drive, I

believe it was on or about February 20 -- February 14th, if

I remember correctly.

Q. Okay. So the computer stops communicating around

February 14th with this domain. And then at the same time,

does the key logger stop recording or was that a little later?

A. I would have to go back and look at the key logger data

to see when the key logger stopped.

Q. About around the same time, is it your recollection?

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JAMES - CROSS (Cors)

Mary A. Schweinhagen, RDR, CRR (937) 512-1604

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A. It would probably be around the same time.

Q. Okay. I think I've seen February 17, 2014?

A. Okay.

Q. Does that sound --

A. Yeah, that sounds correct.

Q. Okay. So from January 25th, we know that, based on your

forensic analysis, malware is put on this computer, we know

that the computer starts communicating with a domain, and we

know that that communication stops on or around February 14th,

correct?

A. That's --

Q. So three to four weeks, correct?

A. Yep.

Q. And based on your analysis, at any point during that time

was an effort made to target any documents on that computer?

A. Based on the evidence on the hard drive? It's hard to

determine that.

Q. Okay. And based on your forensic analysis, was there any

effort to obtain or download a trade secret from that

computer?

A. That could not be determined from my analysis. I did

not find evidence of that.

Q. Okay. But you did find analysis, did you not, that after

these -- this virus/malware was installed on the computer, was

anything accessed after January 30th?

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JAMES - CROSS (Cors)

Mary A. Schweinhagen, RDR, CRR (937) 512-1604

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A. I could not determine that from my analysis. I could

not determine that anything was accessed.

Q. Okay. So you don't know anything either way?

A. No, don't know either way.

Q. Now, this computer was also forensically analyzed by the

French Intelligence Service as well; is that correct?

A. That is correct.

Q. And a report dated September 17, 2014, does that sound

familiar? That was prepared by the French?

A. That's probably correct.

Q. And do you recall as one of the findings of that report

that any data recovery, if any took place, did not appear to

be targeted in any matter?

MR. McKENZIE: Objection, Your Honor.

THE COURT: Your objection?

MR. McKENZIE: Objection, Your Honor.

THE COURT: Basis?

MR. McKENZIE: Hearsay.

MS. CORS: Your Honor, I am asking for a finding. I

am not asking for him to repeat what was in the report.

THE COURT: Objection's overruled.

You can answer the question, if you remember it.

THE WITNESS: Could you repeat the question, please?

BY MS. CORS:

Q. Sure. So as -- was it your understanding that one of the

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JAMES - CROSS (Cors)

Mary A. Schweinhagen, RDR, CRR (937) 512-1604

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findings of this report was that any data recovery did not

appear to be targeted in any manner?

A. I don't recall that statement, and I'm a little bit

confused on the term "data recovery" being used there. Is

that downloading of files, I guess is what my question is?

Q. Did you have any understanding as to whether the French

forensic analysis concluded that any files were exported?

A. I don't believe they could conclude that any files were

exported.

Q. So it appears, from your perspective, their conclusions

were consistent with the conclusions of your own forensic

analysis?

A. That is correct.

Q. Now, your report analyzed a file, a self-extracting RAR

file, I believe, that contained images on Mr. Hascoet's

computer; is that correct?

A. That is correct.

Q. And can you explain to the jury what -- what those images

were?

A. The images were pictures of the various locations that

we determined to be in Nanjing, Jiangsu Province.

Q. They appeared to be vacation photos?

A. They would be consistent with vacation photos.

Q. And in the course of your investigation, you reviewed, as

I understand, communications involving Tian Xi, correct?

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JAMES - CROSS (Cors)

Mary A. Schweinhagen, RDR, CRR (937) 512-1604

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A. Tian Xi, yes.

Q. And many of those communications you read here for the

jury, correct?

A. That is correct.

THE COURT: Ms. Cors, could you keep your voice up,

please?

MS. CORS: Yes. Sorry, Your Honor.

BY MS. CORS:

Q. And in those communications do you recall seeing any

reference to trade secrets?

A. I do not.

Q. Do you recall seeing any discussion about obtaining

documents from Safran?

A. I do not.

Q. Do you recall any reference to composite materials?

A. I do not.

Q. Do you recall any reference to aviation technology?

A. I do not.

Q. And do you recall any reference to fan blade technology?

A. I do not.

Q. Okay. And then you were asked to read, and I understand

you reviewed, communications involving Mr. Gu Gen, correct?

A. Correct.

Q. And who is Mr. Gu Gen again?

A. Gu Gen is the IT infrastructure and information

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JAMES - CROSS (Cors)

Mary A. Schweinhagen, RDR, CRR (937) 512-1604

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security officer for Safran Suzhou.

Q. Okay. And with respect to these communications, do these

communications reference any effort to obtain documents?

A. They do not.

Q. Do they reference any attempt to steal trade secrets?

A. They do not.

Q. Do they reference any -- do they reference composite

materials?

A. No.

Q. Do they reference fan blades, including fan blades

designed by GE?

A. They do not.

Q. Okay. And there were additional communications you were

asked to review and read into the record regarding alleged

colleagues of Mr. Xu, correct?

A. That is correct.

Q. Chai Meng?

A. Chai Meng.

Q. And I am going to ask you the same series of questions.

In those communications, was there any reference about

obtaining documents from Safran Suzhou or any entity of

Safran?

A. There were not.

Q. Were there any reference to trying to obtain trade

secrets?

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JAMES - CROSS (Cors)

Mary A. Schweinhagen, RDR, CRR (937) 512-1604

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A. There weren't.

Q. Any reference to composite materials?

A. There was not.

Q. Any reference to aviation fan blades?

A. No.

Q. Or GE Aviation?

A. There was not.

Q. Now, Mr. Gu Gen was head of security, correct?

A. He is head of information security.

Q. And in your experience, would someone who's head of

information security have pretty broad access to the databases

and computers of the company?

A. Generally, they would.

Q. Yet, I believe you just testified there was never a

request of Mr. Gu Gen, to your knowledge, to -- to use that

access to obtain any information from the company, correct?

A. Correct.

Q. Now, on your direct testimony you talked a little bit

about the MSS and its local office in Nanjing, the JSSD,

correct?

MR. McKENZIE: Objection, Your Honor.

THE COURT: Basis?

MR. McKENZIE: Assumes facts not in evidence.

THE COURT: Sustained as to form.

BY MS. CORS:

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JAMES - CROSS (Cors)

Mary A. Schweinhagen, RDR, CRR (937) 512-1604

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Q. Mr. James, you were shown documents that the government

alleged related to Mr. Xu, correct?

A. Mr. Xu Yanjun.

Q. And his alleged role with MSS in its office in Nanjing,

the JSSD, correct?

A. I was shown that.

Q. The MSS and the JSSD have multiple functions, do they

not?

A. They do.

Q. Okay. I believe you've testified in the past that in

your view they are sort of a combination of the FBI and CIA,

correct?

MR. McKENZIE: Objection, Your Honor. Outside the

scope of direct.

MS. CORS: May I address this, Your Honor? On

direct, the issue of Mr. Xu and his employment with the MSS

was brought up. On direct the issue of an incursion into a

computer was brought up. I'm simply trying to explore what

could be the basis for an incursion.

THE COURT: The Court overrules the objection. I am

going to give you some latitude.

MR. McKENZIE: Your Honor, I am going to make a

second renewed objection under different grounds of improper

impeachment by referencing prior testimony without asking a

direct question first.

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JAMES - CROSS (Cors)

Mary A. Schweinhagen, RDR, CRR (937) 512-1604

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THE COURT: Overruled.

Please proceed.

MS. CORS: Thank you, Your Honor.

BY MS. CORS:

Q. Now, with respect to the MSS and the -- let me start with

this.

You had -- in connection with your investigation in the

Southern District of California, did you provide testimony to

the grand jury?

A. I did.

Q. Okay. And as part of that testimony, did you opine on

the roles and functions of the MSS and its office, JSSD and

Nanjing?

A. Yes.

Q. And do you recall identifying some of those functions as

somewhat of a combination between the FBI and CIA?

A. That would be correct.

Q. And you identified one of the primary responsibilities of

MSS and JSSD as collecting of intelligence, correct?

A. That is correct.

Q. Intelligence, by definition information?

A. That could be another term for intelligence.

Q. It could also include open-source information; is that

correct?

A. It could.

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JAMES - CROSS (Cors)

Mary A. Schweinhagen, RDR, CRR (937) 512-1604

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Q. Some of the other functions, I believe you identified

nonmilitary foreign intelligence; is that correct?

A. That is correct.

Q. And then you also identified as a function of both the

MSS and the JSSD office performing political and domestic

security. Do you recall that?

A. I do.

Q. And could you explain to the jury what your understanding

of political and domestic security is?

A. That would be looking for internal spies inside of

China.

Q. Could it also include monitoring and surveilling

foreigners or individuals who are in China?

A. It could.

Q. Could it also include monitoring and surveilling

companies that are operating within China's borders?

A. It could.

Q. And, in fact, would you agree that China views cyberspace

within its national borders as a proper area of control?

MR. McKENZIE: Objection as to first being outside

the scope and, second, relevance.

THE COURT: Second, what?

MR. McKENZIE: Relevance as to his opinion.

THE COURT: Overruled.

I'm going to need to break momentarily, but finish up.

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JAMES - CROSS (Cors)

Mary A. Schweinhagen, RDR, CRR (937) 512-1604

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MS. CORS: Okay. I can finish this up.

BY MS. CORS:

Q. And as part of any functions with respect to political

and domestic security, there are a number of methods the

Chinese government can use to do that; isn't that correct?

A. That is correct.

Q. Okay. Do some of those include searching hotel rooms?

A. I'm not familiar with exactly what the MSS does or

doesn't do inside of China.

Q. In terms of monitoring, surveilling, in your experiences

as a cyber expert, could bugging or intruding into someone's

computer to monitor that computer be a technique that --

A. That could be.

Q. -- is used?

Is that a technique that governments sometimes use to

conduct such surveillance?

A. It could be.

THE COURT: I'm going to interject here and ask if

we can break.

MS. CORS: Certainly, Your Honor.

THE COURT: And I think we're straying a bit, but I

gave you some latitude.

Members of the jury, we are going to break for 20

minutes. During the break, take a break. As you know, don't

discuss the case among yourselves or with anyone else. No

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JAMES - CROSS (Cors)

Mary A. Schweinhagen, RDR, CRR (937) 512-1604

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independent research. Continue to keep an open mind.

Out of respect for you, we'll rise as you leave for 20

minutes.

THE COURTROOM DEPUTY: All rise for the jury.

(Jury out at 11:05 a.m.)

THE COURT: The jury's left the room. The door is

closed. Is there anything that requires my attention before

we break for 20 minutes? First, from the government?

MR. McKENZIE: No, Your Honor.

THE COURT: From the defense?

MS. CORS: No, Your Honor.

THE COURT: Very well.

Let the record reflect that Judge Cole is here observing

my work during recess.

THE COURTROOM DEPUTY: The court is now in recess.

(Recess from 11:06 a.m. until 11:31 a.m.)

THE COURT: May we call for the jury from the

government's perspective?

MR. McKENZIE: Yes, Your Honor.

THE COURT: And from the defense as well?

MS. CORS: Yes, Your Honor.

THE COURT: Let's call for the jury. Let me get my

mask. You can call for the jury.

THE COURTROOM DEPUTY: All rise for the jury.

(Jury in at 11:32 a.m.)

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JAMES - REDIRECT (McKenzie)

Mary A. Schweinhagen, RDR, CRR (937) 512-1604

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THE COURT: You may all be seated. Thank you.

The 15 jurors have rejoined us after a break. Thank you

for your patience.

We'll continue with the testimony of this witness.

MS. CORS: Thank you, Your Honor.

Your Honor, I have no further questions for this witness.

Thank you.

THE COURT: Very well.

Redirect, if any?

MR. McKENZIE: Very briefly, Your Honor.

THE COURT: Very well.

REDIRECT EXAMINATION

BY MR. McKENZIE:

Q. Special Agent James, when you analyzed the Sakula

malware, were you able to determine whether or not it beaconed

out to a domain?

A. Yes, I was.

Q. Were you able to determine whether any particular files

were transferred from the computer to anywhere else?

A. I could not determine that.

Q. Why not?

A. Depending on how the files are transferred, our records

are not maintained on the hard drive so it's really hard to

determine that after the fact. Generally, you would need to

actually watch the transfer occur.

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JAMES - REDIRECT (McKenzie)

Mary A. Schweinhagen, RDR, CRR (937) 512-1604

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Q. And so just to be clear, is it the case that you

determined that no files were transferred, or is it the case

that you could not determine what files, if any, were

transferred?

A. There was no evidence to support whether or not files

were transferred either way.

Q. During your years of experience in cyber intrusion cases

involving remote access trojans, is part of the purpose that

they're installed to take files?

MS. CORS: Objection, Your Honor.

THE COURT: Basis?

MS. CORS: Leading and beyond the scope.

THE COURT: Overruled.

Don't lead the witness. Go ahead, ask.

BY MR. McKENZIE:

Q. As part of your experience, what are some of the reasons,

some of the main reasons that you've experienced for why

people installed remote access trojans on computers?

A. Some of the primary reasons are, one, to gain access to

the computer so that you can use it to do what your motive

is. Once you have access, you can run commands and

compromise other computers on the network.

In this case, they used computers that were compromised

to compromise other companies.

MS. CORS: Objection, Your Honor.

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JAMES - RECROSS (Cors)

Mary A. Schweinhagen, RDR, CRR (937) 512-1604

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THE COURT: Beyond the scope?

MS. CORS: Yes, beyond the scope.

THE COURT: Sustained.

MR. McKENZIE: No further questions, Your Honor.

THE COURT: Very well. Redirect or recross on

redirect?

MS. CORS: Thank you, Your Honor.

RECROSS-EXAMINATION

BY MS. CORS:

Q. Special Agent James, you just testified that this type of

virus malware can be used to gain access to achieve motives,

correct?

A. That is correct.

Q. And in this instance, you are not in any position to know

what those motives were, correct?

A. Can we be more specific on the question?

Q. Well, there can be many different reasons why a person or

entity may seek to install this type of file on a computer,

correct?

A. That is correct.

Q. And one of those reasons could be to gain access to the

computer and to see what is in the computer to surveil, to

monitor, correct?

A. That is correct.

MS. CORS: No further questions. Thank you.

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JAMES - RECROSS (Cors)

Mary A. Schweinhagen, RDR, CRR (937) 512-1604

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MR. McKENZIE: Nothing further, Your Honor. Thank

you.

THE COURT: Are you going back to San Diego?

THE WITNESS: I hope so.

THE COURT: Travel safe. You may step down, sir.

THE WITNESS: Thank you.

THE COURT: Sort of awkward timing. Where are we from

the government's perspective? Do we need to break at this

point?

MR. MANGAN: We are ready to call the next witness.

It's up to you, Your Honor.

THE COURT: And you don't need the issue I need to

chat with you about addressed at this time?

MR. MANGAN: No, Your Honor.

THE COURT: All right. Let's call your next

witness, please.

MR. MANGAN: Your Honor, the government calls Arthur

Gau.

THE COURT: Very well. We'll break shortly after

noon.

It may be noon, Mr. Mangan, that we break.

Sir, we are going to put you on the witness stand over

here.

If you'd be willing to pause and stop where you are, sir.

Raise your right hand for the oath to tell the truth.

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JAMES - RECROSS (Cors)

Mary A. Schweinhagen, RDR, CRR (937) 512-1604

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THE WITNESS: Yes.

THE COURT: Do you solemnly swear or affirm that

your testimony today will be the truth, subject to the penalty

of perjury?

THE WITNESS: Yes.

ARTHUR GAU, PLAINTIFF WITNESS, SWORN

THE COURT: Very well. You may be seated.

THE WITNESS: Thank you.

THE COURT: Sit in the chair and get acclimated.

Sometimes the chair tips back. I'm going to want you in front

of the microphone. It's a very expensive federal one.

THE WITNESS: Can I take this --

THE COURT: Any of the exhibits may come up on your

screen, sir. Understood some of the exhibits may come up on

your screen.

THE WITNESS: The computer screen.

THE COURT: Okay. When the time comes, we may tell

you to look at the screen, okay?

THE WITNESS: Okay. I'm ready.

THE COURT: He's ready.

MR. MANGAN: Thank you, Your Honor. If it helps

Your Honor, may the witness take off his mask?

THE COURT: Yes, if you want to take off your mask.

THE WITNESS: Yes.

THE COURT: You are fully surrounded by Plexiglas.

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GAU - DIRECT (Mangan)

Mary A. Schweinhagen, RDR, CRR (937) 512-1604

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You may proceed, Counsel.

The lawyer for the government will ask you some questions

at this time.

DIRECT EXAMINATION

BY MR. MANGAN:

Q. Good morning, sir. I'm Tim Mangan on behalf of the

United States.

Can you state your full name for the record, please?

A. My full name is Arthur Ching Fu Gau.

Q. And how do you spell your last name?

A. My last name spells G-A-U.

Q. All right. Mr. Gau, where were you born and raised?

A. I was born in Taipei, Taiwan.

Q. All right. And what languages do you speak?

A. I spoke English mostly, and also Chinese, Mandarin.

Q. All right. Mr. Gau, were you originally raised in

Taiwan?

A. Yes.

Q. Okay. At what point did you move to the United States?

A. I came to United States for graduate study in 1978.

Q. All right. And have you become a United States citizen?

A. Yes. I become United States citizen 1992, February

25th.

Q. All right. I'd like to ask you about your education.

Did you receive a degree in Taiwan?

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GAU - DIRECT (Mangan)

Mary A. Schweinhagen, RDR, CRR (937) 512-1604

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A. Yes. I receive bachelor degree in mechanical

engineering from National Taiwan University in 1975.

Q. All right. I believe you said you came to the United

States to pursue a master's degree?

A. Yes. I obtain a master degree from University of New

York in Buffalo in 1979.

Q. And what was that master's in? What did you study?

A. That master degree was in mechanical engineering.

Q. Okay. Did you pursue any additional master's degrees?

A. Yes. After getting a bachelor degree, I transfer to

Purdue University in West Lafayette, Indiana.

Q. Did you obtain a degree from Purdue?

A. I obtain a master degree in industrial engineering and

also Ph.D. degree in aeronautics and astronautics in 1984.

Q. And the degree in aeronautics and astronautics, that was

a Ph.D.?

A. That's a Ph.D., yes.

Q. After that degree, did you begin to teach engineering?

A. Yes.

Q. Where --

A. I obtain teaching job at University of Cincinnati

starting in 1995 to 1988. Was teaching assistant professor

in aerospace engineering department.

Q. All right. After your teaching career at the University

of Cincinnati, did you pursue an engineering job with a

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GAU - DIRECT (Mangan)

Mary A. Schweinhagen, RDR, CRR (937) 512-1604

55

company?

A. Yes. After three years of teaching, I obtain job at

General Electric, Allison Gas Turbine, starting in 1988 to

1996 for eight years.

Q. Was that -- is that Allison Gas --

A. Allison Gas Turbine --

Q. All right.

A. -- Company at Indianapolis, Indiana. It's a division

of General Motors Corporation.

Q. Okay. At some point did you move to Arizona?

A. I moved to Arizona in 1996 because the job change. I

obtain a position in AlliedSignal at that time, in Phoenix.

Q. And how long did you work for AlliedSignal?

A. AlliedSignal later merged with Honeywell in 1999. And

I work in the same company that's Honeywell for 25 years.

Q. All right. So you went from working for Allied to

working for Honeywell?

A. Yes. I worked for AlliedSignal in Sky Harbor division

for two years. Then I transfer to Tempe division. That's

the aerospace division, but it's still same company.

Starting 1999, AlliedSignal become Honeywell. It's both

company combined. They was merged into Honeywell.

Q. Is Honeywell involved in the aviation industry?

A. Yes, in making component and subsystems for aerospace

aircraft and the APU. That's a power auxiliary unit.

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GAU - DIRECT (Mangan)

Mary A. Schweinhagen, RDR, CRR (937) 512-1604

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Q. All right. While you worked at Honeywell, did you

receive training about protecting the company's trade secrets?

A. Yes, I receive security training about proprietary

material and also expert control -- export control

classified material.

Q. Can you explain what export controlled material is?

A. Yes. Export control, the material and proprietary

information spec should not be allowed export to foreign

countries without a license.

Q. All right. And did you receive training at Honeywell

about export controls?

A. Yes. I receive training and that some material that

are export controlled expect, software material.

Q. Okay. While you were at Honeywell, did you take a trip

to China in 2017?

A. I'm sorry. I did not catch your question. Could you

repeat your same question?

Q. Sure.

A. A little bit louder.

Q. While you were at Honeywell, did you take a trip to China

in 2017?

A. Yes, I understand your question. From 1997 to 2003, I

take three trips to China.

Q. Mr. Gau, we don't need to go back. I'll go back to the

history. I just wanted to ask, in 2017 did you take a trip?

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GAU - DIRECT (Mangan)

Mary A. Schweinhagen, RDR, CRR (937) 512-1604

57

A. Oh, yes, in 2017 --

Q. Okay.

A. -- I took a trip to visit Nanjing.

Q. Did you give a presentation during that trip?

A. Oh, yes. Yes, I made a presentation.

Q. And before that trip, did you send any materials over to

a person in China?

A. Yes, I send in a email. I made a mistake, send in an

email for a PowerPoint presentation. That's for

presentation in Nanjing.

Q. Did those materials --

A. In 2017.

Q. Did those materials include export controlled materials?

A. Some of material, they relate to proprietary material.

It's starting louder, engine starting louder. And also

there are 14 slides regarding this entry control and

protection shutdown logic. And those are to company as part

of my own work, but it is proprietary, protected.

Q. Okay. What I wanted to ask was, did any of the materials

in the presentation include export controlled materials?

A. Yes.

Q. Okay. And at some point was your work at Honeywell

terminated?

A. Yes. After investigation by agent, three months later

I was terminated.

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GAU - DIRECT (Mangan)

Mary A. Schweinhagen, RDR, CRR (937) 512-1604

58

Q. In what year?

A. At work.

Q. What year were you terminated by Honeywell?

A. 2019, January 10th. That's my last day.

Q. Were you charged with a crime for exporting those

materials?

A. Yes. And I plead guilty for it. And assume the full

responsibility for this exporting without a license.

Q. All right. Let me ask you about your trips to China.

MR. MANGAN: Your Honor, if I could show the witness

Exhibit 83 on the screen, please.

THE COURT: Yes.

BY MR. MANGAN:

Q. Do you see on the screen there, do you see an image?

A. Yes. I got it. I see it on screen.

Q. Okay. Do you recognize that person?

A. Yes.

Q. And have you met him?

A. Yes.

Q. And where does he work?

A. I met Professor Gao 1997 first time at the National

University. This is Nanjing University of Aeronautics and

Astronautics.

Q. All right. And was he someone you met with during your

various trips?

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GAU - DIRECT (Mangan)

Mary A. Schweinhagen, RDR, CRR (937) 512-1604

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A. Sorry. I did not hear --

Q. Did you meet with him --

A. -- correctly.

Q. Did you meet with Professor Gao during some of your

trips?

A. Yes.

MR. MANGAN: Your Honor, we'd move to admit Exhibit

83.

MR. MIEDEL: No objection.

THE COURT: It's admitted.

(Government Exhibit 83 was received in evidence.)

MR. MANGAN: If we may publish, Your Honor.

THE COURT: You can show it to the jury.

THE WITNESS: Can you repeat same question again?

BY MR. MANGAN:

Q. Okay. I haven't asked one. Just one moment.

Mr. Gau, can you once again say the name of this

individual? What is the name of the individual on the screen?

A. The photograph?

Q. Yes.

A. Is Gao, last name's G-A-O, spell it's G-A-O, and first

name is Z-H-E-N -- N, like "Nancy" -- G. It's a Professor

Gao Zheng.

MR. MANGAN: Your Honor, I'd ask if we can show the

witness Exhibit 84, please.

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GAU - DIRECT (Mangan)

Mary A. Schweinhagen, RDR, CRR (937) 512-1604

60

THE COURT: Yes.

BY MR. MANGAN:

Q. Do you recognize --

A. Yes, I'm there.

Q. Okay. Do you recognize what that is?

A. Yes. It's a business card from Professor Gao Zheng

given to me in 1997.

MR. MANGAN: Okay. Your Honor, we'd move to admit

Exhibit 84.

MR. MIEDEL: No objection.

THE COURT: It's admitted.

(Government Exhibit 84 was received in evidence.)

THE WITNESS: Yes. It's a business card.

BY MR. MANGAN:

Q. All right. One moment.

MR. MANGAN: May we publish, Your Honor?

THE COURT: Yes.

BY MR. MANGAN:

Q. We're just going to take a moment while they show it to

the jury, okay?

A. Okay.

Q. Now, looking at the screen, Exhibit 84, is this the

business card you were referring to, that you received from

the professor?

A. Yes, it's a business card from Professor Gao.

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GAU - DIRECT (Mangan)

Mary A. Schweinhagen, RDR, CRR (937) 512-1604

61

Q. And if we look at the business card, what is the name of

the university where he works?

A. It's Nanjing University of Aeronautics and

Astronautics.

Q. And what are his titles on the business card?

A. Title's professor and director, is a Rotorcraft, the

lab, is a Lab of Rotorcraft.

Q. At the Rotorcraft Lab?

A. And aeromechanics.

Q. Okay. And does it say, "Chairman of Chinese Helicopter

Society"?

A. Chairman of Chinese Helicopter Society.

Q. All right. I think you said it. When did you first meet

Professor Gao?

A. Pardon?

Q. When did you first meet Professor Gao?

A. 1997.

Q. All right.

A. The first time.

Q. Was that during a trip to Nanjing?

A. That's during a trip to NUAA, yes.

Q. All right. Did you go back to China in 2000?

A. 2000, yes.

Q. All right. And did you see Professor Gao during that

visit?

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GAU - DIRECT (Mangan)

Mary A. Schweinhagen, RDR, CRR (937) 512-1604

62

A. Yes. Visit him for four days.

Q. Was there a -- did you give a presentation during that

visit?

A. Yes, I gave a presentation to students in the seminar,

university seminar.

Q. Did you receive any payment for that trip?

A. Could you repeat the same question? I didn't hear

about -- do I receive?

Q. Sure. Did you receive a payment of money for the trip?

A. Receive?

Q. Were you paid money for the trip?

A. Oh, pay. They pay for the airfare way.

Q. Okay. Who paid for the airfare?

A. This is a foreign affair office.

Q. The foreign affair office?

A. Of NUAA.

Q. Okay. Have you ever met an individual named Zha Rong?

A. Yes. There were three people working in the foreign

affair office, and he is one of the person. I barely know

him in 2000, but I met him first time in the year of 2000.

Q. Okay. You met him in 2000.

MR. MANGAN: Your Honor, I'd ask if we could show

the witness Exhibit 80.

THE COURT: Yes.

BY MR. MANGAN:

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GAU - DIRECT (Mangan)

Mary A. Schweinhagen, RDR, CRR (937) 512-1604

63

Q. If you could take a look at your screen, sir. Do you

recognize that business card?

A. Yes. That's a business card given to me. I think it's

2003 when he give it to me. But it's Zha, the last name

spells Z-H-A, and first name Rong, R-O-N-G.

MR. MANGAN: Your Honor, may we --

THE WITNESS: He is receptionist working in a

Foreign Affairs Office at NUAA.

MR. MANGAN: Your Honor, we'd move to admit Exhibit

80.

MR. MIEDEL: No objection.

THE COURT: Admitted.

(Government Exhibit 80 was received in evidence.)

MR. MANGAN: May we publish?

THE COURT: Yes, you may show it to the jury.

BY MR. MANGAN:

Q. Mr. Gau, did you receive this business card from a person

called Zha Rong?

A. Zha Rong, yes.

Q. In looking at the business card, where does it say he

works?

A. He work at Nanjing University of Aeronautics and

Astronautics, Foreign Affairs Office.

Q. Did you -- when you talked with him, did you call him Zha

Rong or did you call him something else?

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GAU - DIRECT (Mangan)

Mary A. Schweinhagen, RDR, CRR (937) 512-1604

64

A. We call him Zha Rong and also the nickname, Little Zha.

Q. Did you ever call him by his initials, Z.R.?

A. Yes, both, Mr. Zha or Little Zha.

Q. All right. During your trip in 2000, what did Mr. Zha

Rong do?

A. Sorry. I did not catch question. Was Mr. Zha Rong --

Q. What did Zha Rong do during your trip to China in 2000?

A. During the trip, he's a receptionist, one of three

working in office. It shows how to get around in a city,

like where to go to get a meal, where to go for sightseeing, where to get the exchange, the dollar exchange.

Q. All right. And did his office pay for your airfare?

A. I cannot remember exactly, but it's very likely, yes.

Q. All right. I want to ask about your next trip in 2003.

A. Sure.

Q. Did you return to China in 2003?

A. In 2003 I was doing this Three Gorges cruise along the

Zen River, because I cannot book the ticket from United

States. So I went through -- when I went through the China,

the Foreign Affairs Office sent Little Rong. That's the Zha

Rong. Mr. Zha come to Beijing airport to receive us.

That's me and my mother on the trip.

I was setting up a trip before this Three Gorges Dam

was complete. It's about to complete at that time, and

start to blacken the water. So once the water rise, the

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GAU - DIRECT (Mangan)

Mary A. Schweinhagen, RDR, CRR (937) 512-1604

65

scenery will be all change.

Q. Okay.

THE COURT: I'm going to need to break at an

appropriate moment. If you've got a couple more, go ahead.

MR. MANGAN: I will ask one more, and maybe that's

the right time, Your Honor.

THE COURT: Very well.

BY MR. MANGAN:

Q. During the 2003 trip, did you see Professor Gao and Zha

Rong?

A. Along of this cruising trip, he was accompany me

through all the way.

Q. Was it Mr. Zha Rong who accompanied you?

A. Yes, for the sight-seeing trip.

Q. And the company --

A. And then on the return trip, stop at NUAA and met with

Professor Gao for one day.

Q. All right. Last question before we break. Who paid for

the sight-seeing trip?

A. For the sight-seeing, the University of Nanjing

Aeronautic -- this Foreign Affairs Office. And I took care

of starting from the Beijing airport and all the way stop in

Nanjing and then back to Beijing again. And then I was

taking a flight back from Beijing to U.S.A.

MR. MANGAN: Your Honor, I think this would be a

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GAU - DIRECT (Mangan)

Mary A. Schweinhagen, RDR, CRR (937) 512-1604

66

good breaking point.

THE COURT: Very well. We are going to take a lunch

break, stop for a little while, okay?

THE WITNESS: A lunch break now. Thank you.

THE COURT: Members of the jury, we're going to take

our lunch break. High noon. We're going to break until 1:30.

During the break, take a break. Don't discuss the case among

yourselves or with anyone else. No independent research.

Continue to keep an open mind.

Out of respect for you, we'll rise as you leave.

THE COURTROOM DEPUTY: All rise for the jury.

(Jury out at 12:01 p.m.)

THE COURT: The jury's left the room. The door is

closed. The witness can step down and go to lunch.

Will the government see to his care and admonish him

about his testimony, not to discuss it?

MR. MANGAN: Yes, Your Honor. He has counsel here

as well.

THE COURT: Magnificent. Where is counsel?

MS. CISNEROS: Right here, Your Honor.

THE COURT: Welcome.

MS. CISNEROS: Thank you.

THE COURT: 1:30.

Okay. Please be seated.

Is there something that I need to address before the

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GAU - DIRECT (Mangan)

Mary A. Schweinhagen, RDR, CRR (937) 512-1604

67

lunch break from the government's perspective?

MR. MANGAN: After this witness, Your Honor, it

would become ripe to discuss the issue related to the

presentation of that transcript that we raised with the Court.

THE COURT: And should we resolve that now?

MR. MANGAN: It would certainly help our planning.

THE COURT: Very well.

MR. MANGAN: I do expect this witness will take a

little bit of time. He's currently on the stand.

THE COURT: Well, let's address it now.

Let me make a statement. I've read the government's

memo, motion.

For purposes of the record, yesterday afternoon the

government raised an issue regarding the presentation of

previously admitted exhibits. Specifically, the government

admitted into evidence the transcripts of certain recorded

conversations, but the government did not publish the exhibits

to the jury at the time of their admission.

The government now seeks to have the transcripts read in

open court. Yesterday, the government proposed doing so

either by having it read for the jurors by various nonwitness individuals or, alternatively, the government proposed

having a superfluous witness take the stand merely to read the

transcripts.

Defendant objected to the government's proposal, stating

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GAU - DIRECT (Mangan)

Mary A. Schweinhagen, RDR, CRR (937) 512-1604

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that the manner in which the government intends to present the

evidence is improper. Moreover, defendant noted that the

transcripts are already in evidence, can be referenced by

counsel during closing arguments, and will be provided to the

jurors during deliberations. Therefore, defendant maintains

that the government's intended reading of the transcript is

unnecessary and improper.

I indicated yesterday in open court that I was

disinclined to allow the government to revisit the admitted

transcripts in the manner indicated but that I would give it

additional thought. After we recessed for the day, I gave it

more thought and determined that the defense's objection was

well taken. I had my staff email the lawyers, the parties to

that effect yesterday at 6:30 p.m.

At 7:55 p.m. the government filed a motion to publish

exhibits. In its motion the government proposes as an

alternative means of presenting the evidence that it could

recall Agent Hull to merely read the transcript but not

otherwise testify to anything.

The government also cites Sixth Circuit case law U.S.

versus Tragas, T-R-A-G-A-S, in support of its proposal. As an

initial matter, the government's cited case law stands for the

proposition that a witness can read a transcript that's

already admitted into evidence. But that's not the issue

here. The government -- or the Court is well aware that

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GAU - DIRECT (Mangan)

Mary A. Schweinhagen, RDR, CRR (937) 512-1604

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reading the contents of an admitted exhibit is generally

appropriate, and I have allowed the government to do just that

with a number of communications and numerous witnesses. But

the issue here is not whether the witness can read an admitted

exhibit but rather the issue is the manner in which the

government intends to do so.

And the case law cited by the government does not address

that issue. Notably, the Tragas case does say that a

theatrical performance would generally be inappropriate.

Here, the Court finds that having the transcript read by

non-witnesses is effectively the same as having it acted out

for the jury. It's not an appropriate means of presenting the

evidence.

Moreover, as to the notion that the government would

simply put on an irrelevant witness to read the transcript,

this too is appropriate. Federal Rule of Evidence 602 states

that, quote, "A witness may testify to a matter only if the

evidence is introduced sufficient to support a finding that

the witness has personal knowledge of the matter," end quote.

Simply having an agent with no connection to the case

take the stand for the purpose of reading a transcript to the

jury, no less a transcript that the jury can read for

themselves during deliberations, is not appropriate. The

circumstances would be different, for instance, if the

government were merely proposing to read prior statements of

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GAU - DIRECT (Mangan)

Mary A. Schweinhagen, RDR, CRR (937) 512-1604

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an unavailable witness who was previously subject to

cross-examination.

But here, there are no such circumstances that would

justify the government's intended presentation of the

transcript. But here, what we have is the government

admitting an exhibit, not publishing it through the relevant

witness, and now seeking to go back and present the evidence

using nontraditional methods simply for the sake of reading an

exhibit that the jury can easily read for itself.

Additionally, the government now proposes recalling Agent

Hull. The Court has broad discretion with regard to allowing

a party to recall witnesses, and that discretion largely

arises from the Court's authority to exercise reasonable

control over the proceedings and the manner and mode of

examining witnesses.

In considering whether to allow a party to recall a

witness, the Court may consider a number of factors, including

the parties' explanation for failing to introduce the evidence

earlier, the admissibility and relevance of the evidence, and

prejudice to the opposing party.

Here, admissibility and relevance are not in question,

and indeed, the exhibits have already been admitted. So my

focus, driven by the case law, is really on why the government

failed to just have Agent Hull read the transcript at the time

of his testimony. And I'm also curious as to why the

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GAU - DIRECT (Mangan)

Mary A. Schweinhagen, RDR, CRR (937) 512-1604

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government believes that having the exhibit in evidence, being

able to rely on it and read from it in closing arguments, and

having the jury able to read it during deliberations is not

adequate.

Can the government speak to my inquiry?

MR. MANGAN: Your Honor, I think really our -- first

of all, we intended to present it simply in the mode that we

had proposed yesterday. The transcript is quite lengthy, and

that's why simply submitting it at the conclusion of the

proceedings without actually walking through it we don't think

would be as helpful in terms of the jury understanding the

evidence. We think there is some value to reading it to them.

We understand the Court's ruling and reluctance. If

that's how the Court is ruling, then we will just proceed

accordingly.

THE COURT: Very well. Does the defense need to be

heard before the Court acts?

MR. MIEDEL: I don't think so, Your Honor.

THE COURT: Very well. The government has conducted

verbatim readings as to a number of exhibits and could have

done so to the transcript at issue. The government did not do

so. My ruling as indicated in the email my chambers sent out

last night still stands.

If the government has a remaining witness with direct

knowledge of the recorded conversation, it can still proceed

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GAU - DIRECT (Mangan)

Mary A. Schweinhagen, RDR, CRR (937) 512-1604

72

to review the evidence through that witness. Otherwise -- or

present the evidence through that witness. Otherwise, the

Court declines to allow a simulated reading by non-witnesses

or irrelevant witnesses, and the Court finds no basis to

reopen the testimony of Agent Hull for no purpose other than

to read a document that the jury can read for itself.

That's the Court's ruling. We will now recess until

1:30.

On the lunch break, is there anything else that requires

my attention before we break for lunch, from the government?

MR. MANGAN: No, Your Honor.

THE COURT: From the defense?

MR. MIEDEL: No, Your Honor.

THE COURT: We are in recess till 1:30.

THE COURTROOM DEPUTY: All rise. The court's in

recess until 1:30.

(Lunch recess at 12:11 p.m. until 1:35 p.m.)

THE COURT: We're back in the courtroom. Are we

ready to get the jury from the government's perspective?

MR. MANGAN: Yes, Your Honor.

THE COURT: And the defense?

MR. MIEDEL: Yes, Your Honor.

THE COURT: Very well. Let's call for the jury,

please.

THE COURTROOM DEPUTY: All rise for the jury.

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GAU - DIRECT (Mangan)

Mary A. Schweinhagen, RDR, CRR (937) 512-1604

73

(Jury in at 1:37 p.m.)

THE COURT: You may all be seated. Thank you.

The jury has arrived after a lunch break. On behalf of

the Court and the community and the parties, thank you for

your close attention. And thank you for continuing to keep an

open mind.

We'll continue to hear the testimony of this witness.

Mr. McKenzie, you may proceed.

MR. MANGAN: Thank you, Your Honor.

THE COURT: Very well.

BY MR. MANGAN:

Q. Good afternoon, Mr. Gau.

A. Hi.

Q. I want to talk to you a little bit more about Zha Rong.

A. Sure.

Q. All right. At some point did you begin emailing with

him?

A. Yes.

Q. Can you take a look at -- in the binder there is Exhibit

88a and 88b.

MR. MANGAN: And, Your Honor, if we could ask to put

them on the screen as well.

THE COURT: Very well.

THE WITNESS: Yes, I'm there.

BY MR. MANGAN:

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GAU - DIRECT (Mangan)

Mary A. Schweinhagen, RDR, CRR (937) 512-1604

74

Q. Do you see Exhibit 88a?

A. Yes.

Q. And what are these?

A. This a email from jastburton. It is from Zha, Z-H-A,

the Little Zha.

Q. Little Zha?

A. Yes.

Q. All right. And was that sent to your email address?

A. Yes, is sent to my email address, arthur.gau@juno.com.

Q. All right. And for 88a, are these the emails in the

original Chinese characters?

A. Yes.

Q. Can you --

A. This is characters, yes.

Q. Can you look at the exhibits in 88b?

A. Yes, I'm there.

Q. Are those the translations of those emails?

A. Yes. It's English version.

Q. Thank you.

MR. MANGAN: Your Honor, we'd move to admit Exhibits

88a and b.

MR. MIEDEL: No objection.

THE COURT: Admitted.

(Government Exhibits 88a and 88b were received in

evidence.)

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GAU - DIRECT (Mangan)

Mary A. Schweinhagen, RDR, CRR (937) 512-1604

75

BY MR. MANGAN:

Q. We're going to stay on 88a, okay?

A. Okay.

MR. MANGAN: If we could publish 88 -- I'm sorry,

88b. My apologies. Let's stick with the English version. If

we could publish 88b to the jury, Your Honor?

THE COURT: Yes.

BY MR. MANGAN:

Q. Let me start with page 1, and you can either look at it

on the binder or you can look on your screen, okay?

A. Okay.

Q. Mr. Gau, is this the email you just referenced from

Little Zha?

A. Yes, is from Little Zha.

Q. And is the email address that was used called

jastburton@gmail?

A. Yes, that's correct.

Q. And what is the date of the email?

A. This January 17, 2014.

Q. All right. Let me read this for you.

"Mr. Gau. My apology. The message that I sent on the

New Year's Day was rejected. I reckon that you must not have

received it. This is my other email address.

"We indeed have not seen each other for a long time.

Time flies. It has been 11 year. I heard from Teacher Gao

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GAU - DIRECT (Mangan)

Mary A. Schweinhagen, RDR, CRR (937) 512-1604

76

that you have a son recently. Congratulations. I wish you

and your family a Happy New Year and have good health. I also

hope that you will come back to China to visit next year."

Do you see that, Mr. Gau?

A. Yes, I saw it.

Q. And did you receive this from Zha Rong?

A. Yes, the Little Zha, Z-H-R -- Z-H-A.

Q. Had you not seen each other in the last 11 years?

A. No connection, no email in between, yeah, 2003 to this

email.

Q. All right. If we could turn to the next page.

Did you respond to him?

A. Yes.

Q. I'm sorry. On the second page, did he again reach out to

you and ask if you were coming back to China?

A. Yes.

Q. All right. And is this one dated January 22, 2016?

A. This dated January 22, 2016.

Q. All right. Thank you.

I'd like to turn to page 3. And it will show up on your

screen as well.

A. I'm there. Thank you.

Q. Thank you. What is this email?

A. My email's arthur.gau@juno.com. So this is my respond

to Little Zha's email.

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GAU - DIRECT (Mangan)

Mary A. Schweinhagen, RDR, CRR (937) 512-1604

77

Q. Okay. So this is your response?

A. Yes.

Q. And if we could go down towards the bottom.

A. Yes, I'm there.

Q. All right. Did you provide him with your WeChat number?

A. Yes, that's correct. That's my WeChat number.

Q. And did you also provide him with your WeChat nickname?

A. Yes, the WeChat handle.

Q. And we see -- that's your WeChat handle?

A. Yes.

Q. All right. Thank you. If we can turn to page 4? At the

top.

Do you see a response from jastburton?

A. Yes.

Q. And I'll read it. "Mr. Gau, I added your WeChat account

and sent you a message. However, you haven't responded.

Don't you use WeChat often?"

Did I read that correctly?

A. Yes.

Q. All right. And what is the date of this response?

A. This is March 2, 2016.

Q. Okay. Now, did you go back to China in 2016?

A. Yes, in March 2016. I took a personal trip to visit my

music -- musical drama friends at Changzou. That's in 2016.

Q. How long were you in China during that trip?

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GAU - DIRECT (Mangan)

Mary A. Schweinhagen, RDR, CRR (937) 512-1604

78

A. I was in China for five days.

Q. Did you see Zha Rong during that trip?

A. Yes. During the transit, when I go from Beijing

airport to the -- the city my friend, the musical friend,

they reside. And I saw him. I met him in a hotel during

this transit, and also on the way back, the last day I met

him as well.

Q. All right. So did you see -- just to clarify, did you

see Zha Rong when you first got to China?

A. Yes, when I got to Beijing airport.

Q. All right. And then did you also see him on your return

trip?

A. On the return trip, right. During the transit.

Q. All right. When you first got there and saw Zha Rong,

was he with anyone else?

A. Yes.

Q. Who?

A. Mr. Xu, the X-U, was with him.

Q. Is that how his name is spelled?

A. Yes, X-U.

Q. X-U?

A. That's how you pronounce Mr. Xu.

Q. So when you met Zha Rong and Mr. Xu --

A. Xu, yes.

Q. -- did you have any meals with them?

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GAU - DIRECT (Mangan)

Mary A. Schweinhagen, RDR, CRR (937) 512-1604

79

A. For that night, yes, we had a dinner. It was pretty

late. We had a dinner.

Q. All right. Did you also meet with the two of them on

your return trip?

A. On the return trip, yes, we met in, first met in train

station and then back to the hotel. And then we had a

little cake. This dialect, pastry is cakes of various types

of little cake.

Q. Okay. When you met with Zha Rong and Mr. Xu, did you go

to your hotel room with them?

A. At the return night, that night, yes, very late. They

went to my room.

Q. And --

A. And gave me $3,000.

Q. They gave you $3,000?

A. Yes.

Q. Was that in U.S. cash?

A. That's in U.S. dollars, yes.

Q. Did you give a presentation during that visit?

A. No. I was surprised. That was on my personal trip.

Q. All right. Did you bring your computer laptop with you?

A. No, no laptop.

Q. All right. Were you still working for Honeywell at that

time?

A. Yes, I was still working at Honeywell at that time.

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GAU - DIRECT (Mangan)

Mary A. Schweinhagen, RDR, CRR (937) 512-1604

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Q. Did they ask you anything about Honeywell during that

visit?

A. No. I just talk about my career changes. I'm off on

the field propulsion and then working on aerospace systems,

like air conditioning, air flow system; and they were

talking about Taiwan politics, the action going on in Taiwan

and their universe.

Q. You said they gave you cash. Were you expected to come

back and give a presentation?

A. They invited me for this 2017 trip.

Q. All right.

A. Back to Nanjing.

Q. Okay. Did you go back to China in 2017?

A. Yes, at 2017 October.

Q. In October?

A. Yes. I took a trip to visit Nanjing again in 2017,

October 12.

Q. And did you give a presentation as they requested?

A. Yes, I made a presentation on Friday, late afternoon.

Q. I want to ask you how you stayed in touch with them

before the 2017 trip.

A. 2017, email, their email and WeChat.

Q. All right. You used some WeChat?

A. Yes.

Q. All right. Can you turn in your book to Exhibit 87a?

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Mary A. Schweinhagen, RDR, CRR (937) 512-1604

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A. 87.

Q. 87a.

A. Sorry. I did not -- is that in the beginning of the

book?

Q. It's Number 87a.

A. Oh, 87. Sorry.

I'm there, 87a.

Q. All right. Do you recognize these messages?

A. Oh, yes. Yes, I can recognize.

Q. In green, is that the WeChat handle that you use?

A. Yes. That was from Little Zha, Z-H-A.

Q. All right. And are these the messages that you had

between you and who you thought was Little Zha?

A. Yes. And sometime I feel there was switch in point to

Mr. Xu, X-U.

Q. Okay.

A. Yeah, on WeChat, on the same handle.

MR. MANGAN: All right. Your Honor, at this point

we'd ask to move to admit Exhibit 87a.

MR. MIEDEL: No objection.

THE COURT: Admitted.

(Government Exhibit 87a was received in evidence.)

MR. MANGAN: May we publish?

THE COURT: Yes.

BY MR. MANGAN:

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GAU - DIRECT (Mangan)

Mary A. Schweinhagen, RDR, CRR (937) 512-1604

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Q. Mr. Gau, at the top of this where it has the handle in

blue, do you see the name YouJun?

A. Yes, YouJun, I saw it.

Q. Y-O-U-J-U-N?

A. Yes, that's correct, Y-O-U-J-U-N.

Q. Is that the WeChat handle that you were corresponding

with?

A. Yes.

Q. Okay. And did these chats start after you met with them

in 2016?

A. Sorry. I did not catch the question exactly.

Q. Sure. The first message is, "Teacher Gao, how did your

dental surgery go? Is everything okay?"

Did you have some dental issues?

A. Oh, yes. I had a dental implant 2016.

Q. All right. Did you talk to them about that during the

2016 trip?

A. Yes. I was talking about my -- this -- going through

this dental implant in the trip 2016.

Q. All right. And when you started these chats, who did you

believe you were talking to?

A. I'm not clear exactly the switching point. I think at

this point talking about the dental implant, I'm sure it's

from Mr. Xu, X-U.

Q. All right. If we can go down to the bottom of the first

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GAU - DIRECT (Mangan)

Mary A. Schweinhagen, RDR, CRR (937) 512-1604

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page.

A. Yes.

Q. Do you see a message from you for August 10, 2016?

A. Yes, I see it.

Q. And it says, "Hello Mr. Zha. I will have to wait for

another month to have the second surgery. Hopefully I will

have better luck."

Do you see that?

A. Yes, I see that, at the bottom.

Q. So at that time did you believe you were chatting with

Zha Rong?

A. I feel like maybe Mr. Xu, X-U. I am not exactly

clear --

Q. Okay.

A. -- when the switching point happened.

Q. All right. I'm going to move forward to page 8.

MR. MANGAN: If we could show the witness page 8?

THE COURT: Yes. He has it in front of him.

BY MR. MANGAN:

Q. I'm sorry. It's at the bottom. And it may be easier on

the screen. If that's easier.

A. Okay, page 8, yes. I'm there.

Q. At the very, very bottom, do you see a message that

starts on November 17, 2016? Where you say, "Would you like

to come to Cangzhou with me?"

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GAU - DIRECT (Mangan)

Mary A. Schweinhagen, RDR, CRR (937) 512-1604

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A. Cangzhou -- Cangzhou is where my musician friend live.

Q. All right.

A. At that time, November 16 of '17, there was concert for

my friend, for my musical friend.

Q. All right. I'd like to turn to the next page to see the

response.

All right. The response from the WeChat YouJun, does it

say, "Did you prepare the materials that I asked you to

prepare last time?"

Did you see that?

A. Yes, I saw that on top.

Q. What materials are they talking about?

A. I'm not exactly clear what material they talking about.

It is any kind of material, but it's not clear to me what

kind of material it is.

MR. MANGAN: All right. If we could move down the

page a little bit.

THE WITNESS: Yes.

MR. MANGAN: A little further, please.

BY MR. MANGAN:

Q. Do you see where you wrote to them, "I can talk about

both specialties"? Do you see that?

A. Yes. Yes, I see that.

Q. All right. And then did they respond, "Do you have any

materials on hand?"

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GAU - DIRECT (Mangan)

Mary A. Schweinhagen, RDR, CRR (937) 512-1604

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"Because you've made the decision abruptly to come back

next week. It's kind of tight."

"I will try to make arrangement for the exchange."

A. Yes, I saw that.

Q. At that time were you trying to go back to China in late

2016?

A. Yes, November 17, 'cause I try to book a flight to see

my friend's concert, to attend their concert at Cangzhou,

but I cancel it because the snowstorm.

Q. All right. Let's turn to the -- let's continue on with

this discussion. The next statement from them was, "It would

be better if you had some materials on hand."

Let's go to the next page, page 10, please.

A. Yes, I saw that.

Q. So what did you say at the top of page 10?

A. I say, "I can talk about both specialties." That

means --

Q. I think we are on the wrong page. You can look on the

screen. Do you see the top of page 10?

A. Okay. Sorry.

Q. Where it starts with, "It is in a rush"?

A. Page number 10. I'm there.

That's a -- "There is restriction."

Q. You responded, "There is restriction"?

A. Right. I mean, that's a restriction for technical

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GAU - DIRECT (Mangan)

Mary A. Schweinhagen, RDR, CRR (937) 512-1604

86

report. I only can provide this public material, or it is

literature.

Q. Are you talking about --

A. From --

Q. I'm sorry. Are you talking about Honeywell restrictions?

A. I'm talking about in general there are restriction for

technical information. I mean like proprietary is limited.

That's different level of restriction. I mean, the

first one would be strictly limited, like classified

material. Nobody can allow to be seen. The second level is

only distributed to limited authority. Only you have

approval, you can see the material.

And there material distributed publicly to anybody,

that is publish or it is public literature.

Q. All right. So are these the -- these are the

restrictions you're talking about in the chat? When you said,

"There is restriction"?

A. I did not catch your question. Sorry.

Q. All right. Well, let's go back to the chat, okay?

A. Yes.

Q. You said, "There is restriction."

Do you see that?

A. Yes, I saw.

Q. And then what is the response from the other side?

A. "Just try to bring some."

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GAU - DIRECT (Mangan)

Mary A. Schweinhagen, RDR, CRR (937) 512-1604

87

Q. All right. If we can scan down a little bit.

A. Sure.

Q. What did you then write?

A. I said it's too technical.

And "Taihang," that's a Chinese-made engine. It's

called Taihang.

"What do you mean?" It is the message made.

This is China-made engine. I read it on magazines.

Q. And then they responded, "Any materials would work"?

A. They respond, "Any material would work."

Q. All right. Did you understand that they were asking you

to bring materials over from the United States?

A. I understand that, but I don't know specifically what

kind of material. Is any material is fine. Like material,

material, material or information, information, information.

But it's not really specific what kind of information.

MR. MANGAN: All right. Let's go to the next page,

page 11 at the bottom.

THE WITNESS: Yes, I'm there.

BY MR. MANGAN:

Q. Do you see where --

MR. MANGAN: Further down, please. Thank you.

BY MR. MANGAN:

Q. Do you see where it says, "You can also call my coworker

Little Xu," and then there's a phone number? It's at the

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GAU - DIRECT (Mangan)

Mary A. Schweinhagen, RDR, CRR (937) 512-1604

88

bottom of page 11.

A. Yes, I saw that. "You can also call my coworker,

Little Xu."

Q. All right. And is that the person that you had met

previously?

A. Yes, the first time.

Q. All right.

A. Along with Little Zha, the 2016 trip, March.

Q. All right. Did you end up cancelling the trip in 2016,

or at least after these messages? You didn't go in 2016, did

you?

A. You mean November 17?

Q. In November, yes.

A. November 17 I cancel, cancel that trip on the day

because my friend, musical friend told me there's a severe

wind storm. It's too cold for me to handle the cold weather

there. So I cancel the trip, did not go to Cangzhou to see

my friend.

Q. Okay. After you cancelled the trip, did you continue to

send WeChats with them?

A. Yes.

Q. Can you --

A. There's a WeChat.

Q. Can you turn to Exhibit 87b? Eight-seven-b.

A. I'm there. 87b.

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GAU - DIRECT (Mangan)

Mary A. Schweinhagen, RDR, CRR (937) 512-1604

89

Q. Do you recognize these WeChats?

A. Oh, yes. Yes, I recognize it.

Q. And are these also between -- chats between you and the

handle YouJun?

A. That's from YouJun, right, Y-O-U-J-U-N. Yes, that I

recognize.

MR. MANGAN: Your Honor, we'd move to admit Exhibit

87b.

MR. MIEDEL: No objection.

THE COURT: It's admitted.

(Government Exhibit 87b was received in evidence.)

MR. MANGAN: May we publish 87b, page 1?

THE COURT: Yes.

THE WITNESS: Yes, I'm there, 87b.

BY MR. MANGAN:

Q. All right. We're going to look at the message dated at

the top, please, January 5, 2017. Do you see a message where

it says, "Teacher Gau, how do you feel about coming back for

an exchange after the Spring Festival, when it's warmer?"

Do you see that?

A. Not yet. Sorry. I missed a page. 87b, Number 1?

Q. 87b, page 1.

A. Page 1.

Q. It's also on the screen if you want to look at the

screen.

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GAU - DIRECT (Mangan)

Mary A. Schweinhagen, RDR, CRR (937) 512-1604

90

A. In the middle, there's a message, "Will you be able to

make the trip, Teacher Gau?"

That's me.

Q. Yes, okay. Just above that did they invite you to come

back for an exchange?

A. Yes. They say, "Thank you. In the beginning of a new

year, I wish you good luck, health, and peace."

Q. All right. We're going to turn to page 2.

A. Okay. I'm there, page number 2.

Q. And we're looking at the very top of it in blue. Do you

see that?

A. Yes.

Q. All right.

A. It say, "Teacher Gau, in the future, Little Wang from

our association will be specifically in charge of your

exchange in China. Let me send you her WeChat contact."

Q. All right. And then the contact below it, does it have

the name Mujin, M-U-J-I-N?

A. Yes, M-U-J-I-N. The other user ID.

Q. All right.

A. On the WeChat, right.

Q. And who was Mujin?

A. Mujin, as far as, she is a girl to graduate, a new

graduate, and is working with Mr. Xu, X-U, for my -- this

exchange trip to China. So she made all the arrangement

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GAU - DIRECT (Mangan)

Mary A. Schweinhagen, RDR, CRR (937) 512-1604

91

during the liaison, making connection between me and setting

up the trip in 2017.

Q. Was this the trip in October of 2017?

A. Yes, that's correct. October 12, I think. That's the

day I took the trip.

Q. And did you know her by the name Mujin or by Little Wang?

A. I know her by the name Mujin. It's more familiar, the

name Mujin.

Q. And did you exchange emails with Mujin?

A. Yes, I sent her the ticket, the returning ticket, the

receipt for return trip for 2017.

Q. You sent her the ticket and the receipt?

A. Yes, it's electronic ticket. And I forward to her.

Q. Okay. Were you supposed to prepare a presentation for

that trip?

A. The full topic send for Mujin on the WeChat. They have

listed us four topics on my WeChat.

Q. So she listed four topics for you?

A. Yes. Those are presentation topic, and I followed the

topics to prepare for my PowerPoint file for presentation.

Q. All right.

THE COURT: Is this a decent breaking point?

MR. MANGAN: Sure, Your Honor.

THE COURT: We're going to take a 20 -minute break.

During the break, take a break, jurors. You're doing great

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GAU - DIRECT (Mangan)

Mary A. Schweinhagen, RDR, CRR (937) 512-1604

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work. Don't discuss the case with anyone or among yourselves.

No independent research. Continue to keep an open mind.

We'll rise as you leave.

THE COURTROOM DEPUTY: All rise for the jury.

(Jury out at 2:08 p.m.)

THE COURT: 20-minute break. See you then.

THE COURTROOM DEPUTY: This court is in recess for

20 minutes.

(Recess from 2:09 p.m. until 2:28 p.m.)

THE COURT: We ready to proceed from the

government's perspective?

MR. MANGAN: Yes, Your Honor.

THE COURT: Defense as well? Is the defense ready

to proceed?

MR. MIEDEL: Oh, I'm sorry. Yes.

THE COURT: Very well. Thank you, Mr. Miedel.

Let's get the jury.

THE COURTROOM DEPUTY: All rise for the jury.

(Jury in at 2:30 p.m.)

THE COURT: You may all be seated. Thank you.

15 members of the jury have returned after a break.

Welcome back.

We'll continue to hear testimony. The witness remains

under oath.

Mr. Mangan, you can proceed.

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GAU - DIRECT (Mangan)

Mary A. Schweinhagen, RDR, CRR (937) 512-1604

93

MR. MANGAN: Thank you, Your Honor.

THE COURT: Very well.

BY MR. MANGAN:

Q. Mr. Gau, I believe we were talking about the arrangements

you were making for your October 2017 trip. Do you recall

that?

A. Yes.

Q. All right. And you were communicating by email with a

woman. What was her name?

A. Mujin, M-U-J-I-N.

Q. Thank you.

A. Or Mrs. Wang.

Q. Or Mrs. Wang.

I'm going to have you take a look at some exhibits in the

book. Can you turn to Exhibit 85, please.

A. I'm there, 85.

Q. Great. Do you recognize these emails?

A. Yes, I recognize the email.

Q. And are you one of the individuals on the emails?

A. Is a email from me to Mujin.

Q. All right.

MR. MANGAN: Your Honor, we'd move to admit Exhibit

85.

MR. MIEDEL: No objection.

THE COURT: It's admitted.

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GAU - DIRECT (Mangan)

Mary A. Schweinhagen, RDR, CRR (937) 512-1604

94

(Government Exhibit 85 was received in evidence.)

MR. MANGAN: May we publish Exhibit 85?

THE COURT: Yes.

BY MR. MANGAN:

Q. In the first email, is this when you sent the ticket

receipt to Mujin?

A. Yes. It is -- it is email to Mujin.

Q. All right. Then I'd like to turn to page -- one moment.

Can you turn to page 5, please.

A. Yes, I'm there.

Q. Did you email presentation slides to Mujin?

A. Yes.

Q. All right. How many different presentation documents did

you send her?

A. There were seven files, is pdf files.

Q. And did these files pertain to topics like ECU control?

A. Yes.

Q. And what is ECU control?

A. ECU stand for electronic control unit.

Q. All right. Electronic control unit.

A. Yes.

Q. All right. And did you also send her presentations

regarding something called FADEC controls?

A. Yes.

Q. And what does FADEC stand for?

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GAU - DIRECT (Mangan)

Mary A. Schweinhagen, RDR, CRR (937) 512-1604

95

A. The FADEC stand for full authority electric --

electronic control unit.

Q. All right. And is that something used in aviation

electronics?

A. Yes.

Q. All right. Now, I'd like to ask you about the trip.

Where did you go on your trip in October 2017?

A. Sure.

Q. What city did you go to?

A. Sorry. I did not catch that question.

Q. Sure. In October 2017, what city in China did you visit?

A. Nanjing.

Q. All right. And who did you meet in Nanjing?

A. I met Mr. Xu, X-U, and W-H, that's Mujin, Ms. Wang, and

also there's a Secretary Cai. It's C-A-I, last name. And

also the three engineers.

Q. All right. So just to make sure I heard it, you met with

Ms. Mujin?

A. Yes.

Q. Mr. Xu, X-U?

A. Xu, yes.

Q. And someone called Secretary Cai?

A. Yes.

Q. Spelled C-A-I?

A. Yes. And then three engineers.

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GAU - DIRECT (Mangan)

Mary A. Schweinhagen, RDR, CRR (937) 512-1604

96

Q. And three engineers, okay. And did you give a

presentation to the engineers?

A. Yes, I give presentation to them in a hotel room.

Q. All right. In addition to the presentation, where else

did you go on your trip?

A. I have two days sight-seeing trip in West Lake City.

It's a wetland, natural park, is a scenic resort place. I

spent two days there. Actually two and a half days, taking

this train to get there and back.

And I also took a trip to see my musical friend in

Cangzhou, and that was a day.

Q. Who went with you on the sight-seeing trip?

A. Okay. This Mujin, okay, and also the Secretary Cia.

That's C-A-I.

MR. MANGAN: I'm going to ask that the witness be

shown Exhibit 82 on the screen.

THE COURT: Yes.

THE WITNESS: Okay. Now I got it on the screen.

BY MR. MANGAN:

Q. Great. Do you recognize this?

A. Yes, I can recognize.

Q. What is this?

A. Okay, the one on the right --

Q. Well, is --

A. -- is myself.

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GAU - DIRECT (Mangan)

Mary A. Schweinhagen, RDR, CRR (937) 512-1604

97

Q. Is this a picture?

A. Yes, that's a photo I took on the wetland entrance to

this park, national park.

MR. MANGAN: Your Honor, we'd move to admit Exhibit

82.

MR. MIEDEL: No objection.

THE COURT: Admitted.

(Government Exhibit 82 was received in evidence.)

BY MR. MANGAN:

Q. All right. Looking at the picture on the screen,

Mr. Gau, can you describe who the three people are?

THE COURT: Do you want the jury to see it?

MR. MANGAN: I'm sorry, yes. Could you publish it,

Your Honor?

THE COURT: Please.

MR. MANGAN: Thank you.

BY MR. MANGAN:

Q. Do you see the picture on the screen?

A. Yes, I saw it.

Q. All right. Who is the taller gentleman on the left?

A. It's the Secretary Cai, C-A-I.

Q. Okay. And who is the person in the middle?

A. It's Mujin.

Q. That's Mujin?

A. Also known as Wang, W-H.

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GAU - DIRECT (Mangan)

Mary A. Schweinhagen, RDR, CRR (937) 512-1604

98

Q. And then are you in the picture as well?

A. And the one on the right is next to Mujin, that's

myself.

Q. Okay. And this was during your sight-seeing trip?

A. Yes.

Q. All right. Thank you. I'd like to go back to your

presentation that was in the hotel, okay?

A. Yes.

Q. What was -- do you remember the date of that

presentation?

A. I think it's October 13. It's a Friday. I remember it

Friday, late afternoon.

Q. In October 2017?

A. 2017, yes, that's correct.

Q. All right. And you said you were in a hotel, correct?

A. Yes.

Q. Who was in the room during your presentation?

A. Mr. Xu, Mujin, and also the Secretary Cai and three

other engineers.

Q. All right. And during your presentation, did you discuss

the slides that you had sent to Mujin?

A. Yes, I showed the slide on a projection to the screen.

Q. And did you talk about ECU controls and FADEC?

A. I talk about some of the topics related to FADEC, like

how the box looks like, the circuitry, the redundancy

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GAU - DIRECT (Mangan)

Mary A. Schweinhagen, RDR, CRR (937) 512-1604

99

features, and then some of the concept of the controls.

Q. At the time, were you aware that the meeting might be

recorded?

A. No, I don't have idea it was recorded. I had no clue

it was record.

Q. Have you since heard a recording of the meeting?

A. Yes, later.

Q. And did the FBI play that recording for you?

A. Only very small, small part of it. Only one segment is

all.

Q. But have you since heard the entire recording?

A. Yes.

Q. All right. And have you reviewed a transcript of that

recording?

A. Yes, I review them entire.

Q. Looking at Exhibit 86a in your binder, if you could turn

to that.

A. Yes, I'm there.

Q. All right. Is that the transcript you reviewed of the

meeting?

A. Yes.

Q. All right. And is this -- was this a recording of your

actual presentation in China?

A. Yes, that's correct.

Q. And then at some point did you leave the meeting?

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GAU - DIRECT (Mangan)

Mary A. Schweinhagen, RDR, CRR (937) 512-1604

100

A. At the end of my talk, then I left the room. I went

back to hotel, hotel room.

Q. All right. When you listened, did they continue to talk

after you left?

A. They stay, apparently have some conversation themself.

Q. Did you --

A. Still in the room I left.

Q. And did you hear that additional conversation on the

recording?

A. Yes, on recording, yes.

Q. And it's in the transcript as well?

A. Yes, I saw the transcript. I review them.

Q. And did you also see the transcript of some phone calls

that were made at the end?

A. Yes.

Q. All right. And did you hear Mr. Xu talking during that

meeting after you left? X-U?

A. Sorry. I did not catch exactly.

Q. On the recording after you left, did you hear Mr. Xu

speaking to the other engineers?

A. Yes.

MR. MIEDEL: Your Honor, objection. I am just going

to ask Mr. Mangan to not lead.

MR. MANGAN: I'm doing my best.

THE COURT: Don't lead.

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GAU - DIRECT (Mangan)

Mary A. Schweinhagen, RDR, CRR (937) 512-1604

101

MR. MANGAN: Yes, Your Honor.

If we could take a look at 86d. This is already

admitted, Your Honor. May we publish page 4?

THE COURT: 86d?

MR. MANGAN: 86d as in "dog," page 4, please.

THE WITNESS: I'm there.

BY MR. MANGAN:

Q. All right. Mr. Gau, I'm going to read this part of the

transcript from the phone call, and then I have a few

questions for you, okay?

A. Sure.

Q. All right. So just read along with me.

"Hi, Chai Meng. Hey, another question. Today you, how

come you -- I saw that when you introduced yourself from the

Foreign Affairs Office of Nanjing University of Aeronautics

and Astronautics, didn't we decide that you would use title

from the Science and Technology Promotion Association? Er,

how about this? Let's say because -- because when I started

the first day, I, not the first day -- yesterday I told him

our association's deputy secretary, Secretary Cai, may

accompany your group in going. Let's do it this way. You

just say -- you just say -- you just say that you have a title

at Foreign Affairs Office of Nanjing University of Aeronautics

and Astronautics, or something like that. Just be ambiguous

through it. Just explain it briefly tomorrow to him. And

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GAU - DIRECT (Mangan)

Mary A. Schweinhagen, RDR, CRR (937) 512-1604

102

then, um-hmm, okay, okay. Your main identity is still our

association's deputy secretary. Otherwise, to host him under

the title from Nanjing University of Aeronautics and

Astronautics does not sound right. Um-hmm, um-hmm, right,

right, right. Doesn't matter. After all, he's not too

sensitive about this aspect. Okay."

Do you see what I just read there?

A. Yes.

MR. MANGAN: If we can move it back to the message.

BY MR. MANGAN:

Q. When it refers to -- you see the name Secretary Cai,

C-A-I?

A. Yes.

Q. Were you introduced to someone called Secretary Cai while

you were there?

A. Yes, at the end of presentation, when it was recommend

by Mr. Xu to take this sight-seeing trip for the weekend,

and he called this tall guy in the picture, Secretary Cai,

C-A-I.

Q. And that was the tall guy we saw in the picture?

A. Yes.

Q. In Exhibit 82?

A. Yes.

Q. At the top of this message, he says, "Hi, Chai Meng."

Did you ever hear Mr. Xu call him Chai Meng?

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GAU - DIRECT (Mangan)

Mary A. Schweinhagen, RDR, CRR (937) 512-1604

103

A. No. I did not have chance to hear that, no.

Q. What did Mr. Xu call the gentleman, the tall gentleman?

A. I call him -- I cannot remember what I call him. I

never call him actually. I mean, it's a long -- a long --

on this sight-seeing trip.

Q. Okay.

A. And his helping Mujin taking care of the trip, like

setting up the meal, the show, looking at the show, the

ticket to the park, but I never call him, what's the title

or whatever.

Q. All right. What name was he introduced to you as?

A. As Mandarin.

Q. What name did Mr. Xu introduce the tall man to you as?

A. My first impression, he was from --

Q. I --

A. The Foreign Affairs Office, Nanjing University of

Aeronautics and Astronautics, when he self introduce

himself. And that's my first impression. He was with this

Foreign Affairs Office.

And then later, during the presentation, at the end of

presentation, and I heard he was call Mr. Secretary Cai, and

that's the point I realize he is Secretary Cai. But I never

ask his full name.

Q. Okay. I have a couple more questions about this trip,

all right?

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GAU - DIRECT (Mangan)

Mary A. Schweinhagen, RDR, CRR (937) 512-1604

104

A. Sure.

Q. Who set up your hotel reservation?

A. Reservation is all by this Mujin.

Q. Mujin?

A. Yeah, Mujin.

Q. Did Mr. Xu, X-U, ever come to your hotel room?

A. Yes. Yes, he came to my hotel room.

Q. More than one time?

A. I think a couple times, yes. I could not remember

exactly. But I think couple times.

Q. Who paid for your trip to China?

A. Mr. Xu. I think he paid -- paid airfare first. And

then last day, very last day there was envelope for

presentation.

Q. All right. Was there -- so was there an initial payment

for the airfare?

A. Yes.

Q. And how much was that?

A. It's 1,200 for airfare.

Q. And who gave you $1,200?

A. I think Mr. Xu, because that's the only person that

came to my room. I cannot remember exactly actually. This

Mujin could mention about airfare, and then left envelope in

my hotel room for airfare. My business, handle all the

travel, all the sight-seeing and airfare, hotel, and this

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GAU - DIRECT (Mangan)

Mary A. Schweinhagen, RDR, CRR (937) 512-1604

105

schedule for the trip, it was handled by Mujin.

Q. Okay. Was there a second payment in addition to the

airfare?

A. Yes. That's -- that's for the presentation.

Q. How much was that --

A. $5,000 I receive in an envelope.

Q. I'm sorry. I spoke over you. How much were you paid?

A. 5,000 U.S. dollars.

Q. $5,000?

A. Yes.

Q. Okay. During this trip, did you bring your Honeywell

laptop with you?

A. No, never.

Q. Okay. After you returned from --

MR. MANGAN: And we can take the exhibit down. I'm

sorry.

BY MR. MANGAN:

Q. After you returned from the October 2017 trip, did you

continue to communicate with Mujin?

A. Yes, from Mujin on WeChat.

Q. Can you take a look at Exhibit 89?

A. Excuse me. 89?

Q. Yes.

A. I see 88.

Q. 89.

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GAU - DIRECT (Mangan)

Mary A. Schweinhagen, RDR, CRR (937) 512-1604

106

MR. MANGAN: Your Honor, the binder may stop at 88.

May I check?

THE COURT: Yes.

THE WITNESS: Thank you.

THE COURT: What did you hand the witness?

MR. MANGAN: Your Honor, I handed the witness a copy

of Exhibit 89.

THE COURT: Very well. Thank you.

BY MR. MANGAN:

Q. Do you have Exhibit 89, Mr. Gau?

A. Yes, I have 89.

Q. Can you take a look through it?

A. Yes, I'm there.

Q. Do you recognize it, sir?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Can you explain what it is?

A. It is a six topic actually related to this engine

controls. It's a turboshaft engine.

Q. I don't want you to read through it all at this point.

A. Sure.

Q. Did someone send this to you?

A. Mujin on a WeChat.

MR. MANGAN: Your Honor, we --

THE WITNESS: After I return from this 2017 -- 2017

trip.

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GAU - DIRECT (Mangan)

Mary A. Schweinhagen, RDR, CRR (937) 512-1604

107

BY MR. MANGAN:

Q. Thank you.

MR. MANGAN: Your Honor, we'd move to admit Exhibit

89.

THE COURT: Any objection?

MR. MIEDEL: No objection.

THE COURT: It's admitted.

(Government Exhibit 89 was received in evidence.)

MR. MANGAN: May we publish?

THE COURT: Yes.

BY MR. MANGAN:

Q. So, Mr. Gau, after you returned, did you receive this

list from Mujin?

A. Yes, that's correct.

Q. All right. And did you continue to have communications

with her?

A. Yes, on the WeChat.

Q. All right. And did you discuss possibly going back to

China again in 2018?

A. Yes, likely invite me back for a future visit.

Q. And did you understand they wanted some of this

information in the list?

A. Yes, but I did not do any work for it.

Q. All right. You didn't actually compile the information

they asked for?

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GAU - DIRECT (Mangan)

Mary A. Schweinhagen, RDR, CRR (937) 512-1604

108

A. No, I did not send them any information about this

topics.

Q. All right. Let me ask you, shortly after this, in April

1, 2018, were you aware of the defendant, Xu Yanjun, being

arrested?

A. No, I did not have any idea.

Q. Later on that year, in September of 2018, did the FBI

execute a search warrant at your house?

A. Yes.

Q. All right. And were you interviewed at that time?

A. Yes, I was inform. He was extradite to U.S.A.

Q. Well, I am talking about the investigation into you now.

Did the FBI begin investigating you in Arizona?

A. Yes.

Q. And did the FBI interview you?

A. Yes, quite a few times.

Q. A number of times, correct?

A. Yes.

Q. And did you have counsel appointed for you?

A. No, no. I don't have attorney with me at that time,

no.

Q. Did you eventually get an attorney? Later on did you get

an attorney?

A. Later on, yes.

Q. Okay. And did that investigation pertain to your October

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GAU - DIRECT (Mangan)

Mary A. Schweinhagen, RDR, CRR (937) 512-1604

109

2017 presentation in China?

A. Yes.

Q. Did it relate to those documents that you emailed to

Mujin?

A. Yes.

Q. And at the time, were you working on export control

projects at Honeywell?

A. I did not catch your question exactly. Sorry.

Q. In 2018, were you still working at Honeywell?

A. Oh, yes.

Q. Okay. Regarding the information you emailed to Mujin,

was some of that information export controlled by the United

States?

A. The 2017?

Q. Yes.

A. Yes.

Q. All right. You mentioned that you were charged with a

crime. Did you plead guilty?

A. Yes, I plead guilty.

Q. All right. As part of that plea, did you enter into an

agreement with the United States out in Arizona?

A. I'm just here to tell the truth.

Q. Okay.

A. I don't know.

Q. Did you sign a plea agreement?

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GAU - DIRECT (Mangan)

Mary A. Schweinhagen, RDR, CRR (937) 512-1604

110

A. Yes. Yes, I sign agreement.

Q. And in that agreement, did it say that you needed to tell

the truth?

A. Yes.

Q. Okay. And is there an agreement that you would be

sentenced at the low end of the guidelines if you were

cooperative? Do you recall that?

A. I recall this, no benefit or no promise ever written.

It's just here to tell the truth.

Q. All right.

A. For what I know.

Q. You have not been sentenced yet; is that correct?

A. No.

Q. Okay. Did you tell Honeywell about meeting Zha Rong and

Mr. Xu in 2016 in China?

A. No.

Q. Did you tell your company about your trip to China in

2017 to meet them?

A. No.

Q. And did you tell Honeywell that you were paid by those

individuals for those trips?

A. The first trip, very first trip, 1997, yes.

Q. All right. How about the trips in 2016 and 2017?

A. No.

Q. For those trips, you didn't tell Honeywell you were paid

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GAU - DIRECT (Mangan)

Mary A. Schweinhagen, RDR, CRR (937) 512-1604

111

by these other individuals?

A. No.

Q. And when were you terminated by Honeywell?

A. Yes, it's January 10, 2017. Sorry. January 10, 2019,

that's my last day at work officially.

MR. MANGAN: No further questions, Your Honor.

THE COURT: Very well. That neatly coincides with

our appointed break. It's 3 o'clock. We're going to break

for 20 minutes.

During the break, enjoy the break, jurors. Don't discuss

the case among yourselves or with anyone else. No independent

research. Continue to keep an open mind.

We'll rise as you leave for a 20-minute break.

THE COURTROOM DEPUTY: All rise for the jury.

(Jury out at 2:59 p.m.)

THE COURT: The jury's left the room. We're going

to recess for 20 minutes. See you at that time. We're in

recess.

THE COURTROOM DEPUTY: The court is now in recess

for 20 minutes.

(Recess from 3:00 p.m. until 3:21 p.m.)

THE COURT: We're back in the open courtroom on the

record outside the presence of the jury.

I want to memorialize something on the record. I

understand that defendant's retained translator, Ms. Harmon,

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GAU - DIRECT (Mangan)

Mary A. Schweinhagen, RDR, CRR (937) 512-1604

112

with her client's consent, has agreed to become the second

court reporter -- translator for the court in order to spell

Ms. Murphy on occasion. I want to make sure that that is the

agreement. The Court will pay Ms. Harmon the standard rate.

Is that the agreement? I need a lawyer for the defense

to confirm.

MR. MIEDEL: Yes, Your Honor.

THE COURT: And does Mr. Xu agree?

THE DEFENDANT: (In English) yes.

THE COURT: Very well. We'll proceed in that way.

Ms. Harmon, thank you.

Are we ready to get the jury from the government's

perspective?

MR. MANGAN: Yes, Your Honor.

THE COURT: And the defense?

MR. MIEDEL: Yes, Your Honor.

THE COURT: Let's call for the jury.

Who is interpreting this next portion?

THE INTERPRETER: Mae Harmon.

THE COURT: Very well. And the agreement is that

Ms. Harmon will do this through the conclusion of trial; is

that right, Ms. Harmon?

THE INTERPRETER: Yes, that's correct.

THE COURT: And Mr. Xu understands that, counsel?

MR. MIEDEL: Yes.

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GAU - CROSS (Miedel)

Mary A. Schweinhagen, RDR, CRR (937) 512-1604

113

THE COURT: Can I get a yes from Mr. Xu?

THE DEFENDANT: (In English) yes.

THE COURT: Thank you.

THE COURTROOM DEPUTY: All rise for the jury.

(Jury in at 3:24 p.m.)

THE COURT: You may all be seated. Thank you.

The jurors have -- all 15 have rejoined us after a break.

Welcome back.

We will continue to hear testimony. We're now at

cross-examination. The lawyer for the defendant gets a chance

to ask questions.

Counsel, you may proceed.

MR. MIEDEL: Thank you, Your Honor.

CROSS-EXAMINATION

BY MR. MIEDEL:

Q. Good afternoon, Mr. Gau.

A. Good afternoon.

Q. My name is Florian Miedel, and I am an attorney for

Mr. Xu, okay?

A. Sure.

Q. Can you hear me okay?

A. Sure.

Q. Okay.

A. Yeah, I can hear.

Q. Thank you.

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GAU - CROSS (Miedel)

Mary A. Schweinhagen, RDR, CRR (937) 512-1604

114

A. Maybe louder, please.

Q. Okay. Mr. Gau, I'm going to try to make this as simple

as I can for you, okay? I'm going to ask you -- almost all of

the questions I am going to ask you are only going to require

a "yes" or "no" answer, okay?

A. Sure. Thank you.

Q. If you cannot answer a question with a "yes" or "no,"

please let me know.

A. Okay.

Q. Thank you.

Mr. Gau, you testified that your first trip to China to

give a lecture was in 1997, correct?

A. Yes.

Q. And at the time you were working at AlliedSignal; is that

right?

A. AlliedSignal, yes.

Q. Which later joined with Honeywell, correct?

A. Yes.

Q. And during that 1997 trip, you lectured at a university

in Beijing, correct?

A. Yes.

Q. And also at NUAA in Nanjing, correct?

A. Yes, that's correct.

Q. And you lectured to students of engineering, right?

A. Yes.

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GAU - CROSS (Miedel)

Mary A. Schweinhagen, RDR, CRR (937) 512-1604

115

Q. And, Mr. Gau, there is absolutely nothing wrong with

doing that, right?

A. Yes.

Q. You agree that there is nothing wrong with doing that?

A. Yes, I agree.

Q. There is nothing wrong with an engineer like you sharing

your experience and expertise, correct?

A. Yes.

Q. And would you agree that scientists and experts and

professionals from the United States often travel to other

countries to give presentations, correct?

A. Yes.

Q. And they may attend seminars or teach seminars, right?

A. Yes, that's correct.

Q. And talk at conferences, right?

A. Yes.

Q. And provide technical exchanges, right?

A. Yes.

Q. And scientists and professionals and engineers from other

countries come to the United States and do the same thing,

right?

A. Yes, I agree.

Q. Okay. In fact, on your direct testimony, you mentioned a

Professor Gao that you got to know at NUAA.

A. Yes.

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GAU - CROSS (Miedel)

Mary A. Schweinhagen, RDR, CRR (937) 512-1604

116

Q. Do you remember that?

A. Yes, I know him.

Q. And he's a professor in helicopter engineering; is that

right?

A. Rotor dynamics, yes.

Q. Rotor dynamics?

A. That's aerodynamics. It's different from my field.

Q. Okay. And Professor Gao, he came with his colleagues to

the United States in 1998, right?

A. Yes.

Q. And he went to attend a professional conference, right?

A. Yes, I think so.

Q. Okay. And you met with him at that time in Arizona,

right?

A. Yes.

Q. And, again, there is nothing -- nothing wrong with that,

right?

A. Nothing wrong as turn this to real high.

Q. Right. But there is nothing --

A. Nothing wrong.

Q. Mr. Gau, there is nothing wrong with a professional

coming to the United States and participating in conferences,

right?

A. I agree, nothing wrong.

Q. Now, Mr. Gau, I'm going to take you through the different

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GAU - CROSS (Miedel)

Mary A. Schweinhagen, RDR, CRR (937) 512-1604

117

times that you went to China just like Mr. Mangan did, okay?

A. Yes.

Q. So the first time, as we already said, you went in 1997,

right?

A. Yes.

Q. And you lectured to students at NUAA, right?

A. Student, yes.

Q. And that's when you met Professor Gao?

A. Yes.

Q. And during that trip in 1997, nobody asked you, in China,

to reveal any trade secrets, right?

A. No.

Q. Okay.

A. It's all academic.

Q. Right. And then you went back to China in the year 2000,

correct?

A. Yes.

Q. And at that time you also again gave a presentation at

the University in Nanjing, correct?

A. Yes.

Q. And, in fact, there were more than 100 students that

attended that seminar; isn't that right?

A. I cannot remember exactly. Probably 50.

Q. More like 50?

A. Yeah.

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Mary A. Schweinhagen, RDR, CRR (937) 512-1604

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Q. Okay. And during that trip in -- in 2000, that's when

you met Mr. Zha Rong, right?

A. Yes, first time.

Q. The first time. And he was with the NUAA Foreign Affairs

Office, correct?

A. Yes.

Q. Now, during that trip in 2000, nobody asked you to reveal

any trade secrets, right?

A. No.

Q. All right. Let's move on to the trip that you took in

2002-2003. You left in December and came back in January,

right?

A. That's correct.

Q. Okay. December 2002 and you came back January 2003?

A. Yes, that's correct.

Q. In fact, you brought your mother along for that trip,

right?

A. Yes, that's correct.

Q. And during that trip, you did not give a lecture,

correct?

A. No.

Q. But you --

A. It's all sight-seeing.

Q. Sight-seeing, right. But during that trip, you still met

up -- or you met some people from NUAA, correct?

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A. Yes.

Q. You met Professor Gao, right?

A. Yes.

Q. And you met Zha Rong, right?

A. Yes. He was along with me this sight-seeing trip.

Q. Okay. And during that trip in 2002-2003, nobody asked

you to reveal any trade secrets, right?

A. No. Talk in technical -- technically no talk.

Q. Right. But my question is specifically, during that time

nobody asked you to reveal any trade secrets, right?

A. That's right, I agree. No, no one.

Q. Thank you.

Now then, more than a decade passed without you having

any contact with anyone from NUAA, correct?

A. That's correct.

Q. And then in 2014 you received a greetings email from Zha

Rong, correct?

A. Yeah, a greeting.

Q. Yes.

A. In 2014, January.

Q. And you talked about that on direct examination earlier

today, right?

A. Yes.

Q. And after that greeting email, there was another year

without any contact, or year and a half, right?

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Mary A. Schweinhagen, RDR, CRR (937) 512-1604

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A. Yes.

Q. And then the next time you had contact with him was in

2016, correct?

A. Yes, the beginning of 2016.

Q. Beginning of 2016. And in that -- in those conversations

or in that conversation at the beginning of 2016, you told Zha

Rong that you were coming -- you happened to be going to China

in March of 2016, right?

A. Yes.

Q. And so you ended up meeting up with him in Beijing,

correct?

A. During the transit, right.

Q. Right. So you met up with him when you arrived in

Beijing before you went on to your other destinations, right?

A. Yes.

Q. And then you met up with him again on the way back?

A. Yes.

Q. And during that trip he introduced you to Mr. Xu,

correct?

A. Yes.

Q. And he introduced you by that name, Xu, right?

A. Xu, X-U.

Q. X-U. And you met with Mr. Zha Rong and Mr. Xu a couple

of times for dinner; isn't that right?

A. Yes. Just during the transit.

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Mary A. Schweinhagen, RDR, CRR (937) 512-1604

121

Q. Right. And they paid -- they ended up paying for your

hotel, right?

A. Yes.

Q. And you testified also that during that meeting you were

given $3,000, correct?

A. Yes.

Q. Okay. Which you took, right? You accepted it?

A. Excuse me. I did not hear your question.

Q. You accepted that money, right?

A. Yes.

Q. Okay.

A. Yes. I was surprised. Tried to return it. And then,

you know, back and forth, but I took it eventually.

Q. Okay. But during that trip in 2016 when you met with

those two gentlemen in Beijing --

A. Yes.

Q. -- they didn't ask you to reveal any trade secrets,

right?

A. No. Just like old acquaintance. I treat them like a

old acquaintance.

Q. Okay. And then when you returned to the United States in

March of 2016, a couple of months later you started a

correspondence on WeChat with Zha Rong and then perhaps

Mr. Xu, right?

A. Yes.

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Mary A. Schweinhagen, RDR, CRR (937) 512-1604

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Q. And you continued that correspondence over the course of

the year, right?

A. Yes.

Q. And then you had discussions with them about coming to

China at the end of 2016 in November, right?

A. Yes. For the concert --

Q. Right.

A. -- of my friend, right.

Q. But before that they had asked when are you next coming

to China, and you told them that you weren't sure, right?

A. That's correct.

Q. Okay.

A. I not sure when.

Q. And then during the WeChat conversations, you suddenly

told them, oh, actually I'm coming next week. Do you remember

that?

A. Yes.

Q. Okay. And they were surprised, right?

A. Sorry. I didn't catch that.

Q. They were surprised, right?

A. That's a fight?

Q. They were surprised by the fact that -- withdrawn.

You told them that you were coming next week, right?

A. Uh-huh.

Q. They were surprised by that, that you hadn't talked about

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Mary A. Schweinhagen, RDR, CRR (937) 512-1604

123

that before, right? You suddenly said, I'm coming next week,

and they were surprised by that; is that right?

A. There was a concert set up, you mean.

Q. I'll move on.

A. Okay. Sorry I didn't not catch the word "file." Is

the file? You mean a file?

Q. No.

A. Or a fire?

Q. Mr. Gau, I will ask you a question, and then we can go

on, okay?

A. Yes.

Q. Thank you.

When you told them that you were going to be coming to

China the following week, they asked you to send some

materials for your presentation, right? Do you remember that?

A. Oh, yeah, 2007 --

Q. Two thousand --

A. -- 17, presentation's 17 October.

Q. Mr. Gau, I am still talking about the conversations that

you had in the fall of 2016 --

A. Okay.

Q. -- with Zha Rong and Mr. Xu over WeChat.

A. Okay.

Q. Okay?

A. Okay.

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Mary A. Schweinhagen, RDR, CRR (937) 512-1604

124

Q. And over WeChat, you told them you were going to be

coming to China the following week. Do you remember that?

A. Yes.

Q. Okay. And they asked you to do a presentation, right?

A. Yes.

Q. And to send materials. Do you remember that?

A. Yes. Yes, yes.

Q. Okay.

MR. MIEDEL: Can we put on the -- can we publish

Exhibit 87a?

THE COURT: Has this been admitted?

MR. MIEDEL: It's in evidence, yes.

THE COURT: All right. We can publish it.

THE WITNESS: And --

THE COURT: Just a moment, please.

BY MR. MIEDEL:

Q. We are still waiting for the screen.

A. Okay.

THE COURT: I think it's up now.

MR. MIEDEL: Okay. And can we go to page 9?

THE WITNESS: I'm there. Thank you.

BY MR. MIEDEL:

Q. Mr. Gau, are you there?

A. Yes, I'm there.

Q. Okay.

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Mary A. Schweinhagen, RDR, CRR (937) 512-1604

125

A. Yes, I'm there.

Q. And this is the WeChat exchange that you had with either

Mr. Zha or Mr. Xu during that time period, correct?

A. Yes.

Q. And they asked you to prepare some materials. Do you see

that at the top there?

A. Yes.

Q. Okay. And by the way, you went through this exact same

exchange with the government earlier today. Is this the

same -- it's the same one, okay?

A. Yes. I done it previously, yes.

Q. Right.

MR. MIEDEL: Can we scroll down?

BY MR. MIEDEL:

Q. Now, do you see in the middle of the page it says, "Do

you have any materials on hand?"

"Because you've made the decision abruptly to come back

next week, it's kind of tight."

Do you see that?

A. Yes.

Q. Okay. Now, Mr. Gau, you've given a lot of presentations

in your career, correct?

A. Yes.

Q. Okay. And it's common for you to have materials that you

prepare for those presentations; isn't that right?

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Mary A. Schweinhagen, RDR, CRR (937) 512-1604

126

A. Only public material, literature material.

Q. I understand. But my question is simply this: When you

give a presentation to somebody, whether it's students or

fellow engineers, you prepare, right?

A. Yes. I have to make preparation.

Q. You make preparation?

A. For the slides.

Q. Correct. And you make -- you create materials that you

share with the group, right?

A. Yes.

MR. MIEDEL: Okay. Now can we go to the next page,

page 10?

Okay. That's fine.

BY MR. MIEDEL:

Q. So they asked for materials, and you said, "There is

restriction."

Do you see that in the second --

A. Yes.

Q. Okay. And the response was, "Just try to bring some,"

right?

A. Yes.

Q. Do you see that?

A. Yes.

Q. Okay. And then if we scroll down a little bit, you see

that the response from China is, "Any materials would work."

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Mary A. Schweinhagen, RDR, CRR (937) 512-1604

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Do you see that?

A. Yes, I saw, any material.

Q. Any materials?

A. Sure.

Q. So nobody at this point was asking for any specific

materials, correct?

A. It's not very specific.

Q. No, not specific, right?

A. Yeah. Just material, material, material.

Q. Right.

A. That's what I said, information, information,

information.

Q. Correct.

A. But I want specific, and I don't know what type of

material.

Q. I understand. Mr. Gau, just a reminder, most of the

questions I am going to ask you just require a "yes" or "no,"

okay?

A. Okay.

Q. If you don't understand or need me to ask -- reask the

question, please just tell me, okay?

A. Okay. Sorry about that.

Q. No, no problem.

Now, it turns out you never ended up going to China on

that trip at that time, correct?

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Mary A. Schweinhagen, RDR, CRR (937) 512-1604

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A. There is snowstorm.

Q. Right.

A. No, I did not go.

Q. Thank you. And as a result, you never sent any materials

for the presentation, correct?

A. No, not -- no presentation, no.

Q. Right. And the people in China never followed up to ask

you for more materials, correct?

A. Yes.

Q. Okay. Now, in the beginning of 2017 --

MR. MIEDEL: You can take that down.

BY MR. MIEDEL:

Q. In the beginning of 2017, you continued to have

communications with Mr. Xu on WeChat, right? After this

exchange that we just saw, you continued to talk to him on

WeChat?

A. Yeah.

Q. And then there came a time in early 2017 when he told you

that his colleague Mujin was going to be the one arranging

your next trip to China, right?

A. Yes.

Q. Okay. And Mujin was a female as we saw in the picture,

correct?

A. Yes.

Q. And you started chatting with her regularly on WeChat,

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Mary A. Schweinhagen, RDR, CRR (937) 512-1604

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right?

A. Yes.

Q. And you talked with her about all kinds of things, right?

A. Yes.

Q. You talked about opera, for example?

A. Yes.

Q. And you talked about travel and hiking and reading,

right?

A. Yes.

Q. But before October 2017, you did not talk to her really

about your work, right?

A. No.

Q. Okay. Now, you planned a trip to China in October of

2017, right?

A. Yes, that's correct.

Q. And that trip was going to involve visiting family in

Taiwan, right?

A. Yes, on the route.

Q. I'm sorry?

A. On route of Taiwan.

Q. Okay. And then also you were going to go to China to

give a presentation at NUAA, right?

A. Yes. Not NUAA. In a hotel, 2017.

Q. Okay. And then you were also going to do some

sight-seeing, right?

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A. Sorry. I did not catch.

Q. You were going to do some sight-seeing?

A. Sight-seeing, yes.

Q. Yes. You left the United States for China on October 10,

2017, right?

A. Yes.

Q. Okay. The day before, on October 9, 2017, is the first

time that Mujin asked you about the presentation, right?

A. Yes.

Q. She sent those four topics. Do you remember that?

A. Yes.

Q. And that was on the day before you left for China, right?

A. Yes, very close. I remember it was very close. Just

before I took the trip.

Q. Right.

A. Now very, very close.

Q. Okay. And she sent you that list of four possible topics

for your presentation on WeChat, right?

A. Yes.

Q. Okay. Now, when the FBI came to talk to you in 2018,

they took your phone, right? They took your telephone, your

cell phone?

A. Oh, cell phone, yes.

Q. And they also took your computer, right?

A. Yes.

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Mary A. Schweinhagen, RDR, CRR (937) 512-1604

131

Q. And they took pictures of those WeChats that you had with

Mujin during that time period; is that right?

MR. MANGAN: Objection.

THE COURT: Excuse me. Give me just a moment.

There is an objection.

Basis?

THE WITNESS: You mean the full --

THE COURT: Give me just a moment, sir.

THE WITNESS: Sorry.

MR. MANGAN: Objection. Foundation.

THE COURT: Sustained.

BY MR. MIEDEL:

Q. Mr. Gau, you are aware that the FBI translated the

communications that you had between yourself and Mujin, right?

You've seen those?

A. Translated.

Q. Yes.

A. You mean all the scripts?

Q. Yes.

A. Conversation, yes.

Q. You've seen that? You've seen those?

A. Yes.

Q. Okay. I'm going to show you a document that is -- just

for purposes of identification is GP8675.

MR. MIEDEL: And just the witness, please.

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THE COURT: We will show that document to the

witness and opposing counsel.

MR. MANGAN: We object, Your Honor.

THE COURT: I haven't seen it. May I see it?

MR. MIEDEL: Sure.

THE COURT: What's the basis of the objection?

MR. MANGAN: As to the purpose. This isn't --

THE COURT: Would you mind taking your mask off and

speaking into a microphone.

MR. MANGAN: I'm sorry, Your Honor. This isn't a

witness refreshing recollection.

THE COURT: Ask your question first. What's your

question, Mr. Miedel.

BY MR. MIEDEL:

Q. Is it on the screen? Do you see it?

THE COURT: Your question?

MR. MIEDEL: I am asking Mr. Gau if he can see the

document.

THE COURT: All right. Can you --

THE WITNESS: Yes, I can see it.

MR. MIEDEL: Can we zoom into the bottom there?

THE WITNESS: Yes, I remember.

BY MR. MIEDEL:

Q. Okay. My question to you is, are these the four topics

that Mujin asked you to possibly consider presenting on at

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Mary A. Schweinhagen, RDR, CRR (937) 512-1604

133

that conference, or at the talk?

A. Yes.

MR. MIEDEL: Okay. May I have that back, Your

Honor?

THE COURT: Yes.

If you will give me a moment, please.

(Pause.)

Thank you. You may proceed.

MR. MIEDEL: Thank you.

BY MR. MIEDEL:

Q. So, Mr. Gau, these are the four possible topics for the

talk you were going to give in Nanjing, correct?

A. Yes.

Q. Okay. And I think you've already said this, but the four

topics that she sent to you were very general topics, right?

A. Yes.

Q. Okay. The first one was about considerations for

generator electronic control design, materials, and circuit

design, right?

A. Yes.

Q. Okay. And that question was a general question, right?

A. On the topic, yes.

Q. Okay. And that question is not asking you to reveal any

trade secrets, right?

A. No.

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Mary A. Schweinhagen, RDR, CRR (937) 512-1604

134

Q. Okay. The second question concerns the --

THE COURT: Give me a moment, please. If you'd be

willing to approach.

Counsel, he is testifying from a document that's not

admitted into evidence. You need to ask him if he remembers

the topics. If he can do that, great. If he can't, you can

refresh his recollection with the document. But you need to

stop asking about a document that is not admitted into

evidence and to which there is an objection.

MR. MIEDEL: That's fine.

BY MR. MIEDEL:

Q. Mr. Gau, do you remember the four topics that Mujin asked

you to possibly present on?

A. Yes, I remember.

Q. Okay. Great.

THE COURT: So can we take the document down?

MR. MIEDEL: We can take it down -- it's down.

BY MR. MIEDEL:

Q. Mr. Gau, one of the questions concerned the three-shot

matching control method, right?

A. Yes.

Q. And that also is a very general question, right?

A. Yes.

Q. Okay. The third question concerned role in design

considerations for the T700 engine?

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Mary A. Schweinhagen, RDR, CRR (937) 512-1604

135

A. Yes.

Q. Do you remember that?

A. Yes.

Q. Okay. And the T700 engine, that's an engine that was

developed by General Electric, right?

A. Yes, that's true.

Q. In the 1970s?

A. Yes.

Q. Okay. And you did not work at General Electric in 2017,

right?

A. No.

Q. You worked for Honeywell?

A. Yes.

Q. Okay. And you did not work on the T700 engine, right?

A. No.

Q. Okay. And then the last questions concerned design

considerations for reliable indicators and product design

process in mid- and long-term lifespan indicators. Do you

recall that?

A. Yes.

Q. Okay. And that also is a very general question, correct?

A. On the topic, yes.

Q. Yes. And this communication from Mujin, this list of

four questions was the only guidance you received for your

presentation from the people in China, right?

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Mary A. Schweinhagen, RDR, CRR (937) 512-1604

136

A. Yes.

Q. Okay. Before your presentation in October of 2017,

nobody asked you to go back and find Honeywell proprietary

material, right?

A. That's -- not specifically, no.

Q. I'm sorry?

A. Not specifically.

Q. Nobody asked you?

A. Ask, no.

Q. Nobody asked you that, right?

A. No.

Q. Okay. And nobody even asked you in these four questions

to put together a slide presentation with Honeywell material

on it, right?

A. No.

Q. Okay. Now, you were leaving for China the following day,

right?

A. Yes.

Q. And so you scrambled and you put together a slide

presentation on the 9th and the 10th -- right? -- of October?

A. I study for a while history --

Q. Okay.

A. -- yeah, before getting the topic, because I anticipate

there will be a presentation.

Q. Okay. And you did that on your own, right?

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Mary A. Schweinhagen, RDR, CRR (937) 512-1604

137

A. After 2016.

Q. Yes, exactly. But my question is, you said you

anticipated some of the things that you might want to talk

about in China, and so you started putting together materials,

right?

A. Yes.

Q. Okay. And you decided which materials to put on there

yourself, right?

A. Yes.

Q. Nobody asked you to put certain materials on that slide,

or on those slides, right?

A. Yes.

Q. Okay.

THE COURT: Could I interject here for just a

moment?

If the translators -- we've been at it almost a half

hour. Are you all able to swap out so we have a fresh

interpreter --

INTERPRETER MURPHY: Yes.

THE COURT: -- and so we can continue until 4:30, or

should we take a break?

INTERPRETER MURPHY: Yes, I can take over, Judge.

MR. MIEDEL: They can continue.

THE COURT: Are we going to switch the interpreters

out?

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Mary A. Schweinhagen, RDR, CRR (937) 512-1604

138

INTERPRETER HARMON: I'm okay. I don't need a

switch.

THE COURT: And that was Ms. Harmon, right?

INTERPRETER HARMON: Yes.

THE COURT: All right. She's okay.

Excuse the interruption. Please proceed, counsel.

MR. MIEDEL: Thank you.

BY MR. MIEDEL:

Q. Now, you ended up emailing seven --

A. Files.

Q. -- files, right, to Mujin?

A. Yes.

Q. On the 9th and 10th of October 2017, right?

A. Yes.

Q. And two of those files were the ones where you made a

mistake about, correct?

A. Yes. They are -- they are export controlled.

Q. Right. Because they were export controlled --

A. Yes.

Q. -- correct? Okay. We'll talk about that a little bit

more.

You arrived in China on October 12, 2017, correct? The

day before your presentation?

A. Yes.

Q. And you met with Mujin and Mr. Xu, right?

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Mary A. Schweinhagen, RDR, CRR (937) 512-1604

139

A. Yes.

Q. And then on the 13th, you gave your presentation,

correct?

A. Yes.

Q. And you said that that involved the three hosts, so

Mr. Xu and Mujin and this secretary, correct?

A. Yes.

Q. And then also three engineers, right?

A. Yes.

Q. And during that talk, you offered your expertise, right?

A. Yes.

Q. Now, Mr. Gau, would you agree with me that your expertise

is built up over your entire career?

A. Yes.

Q. It starts with your education, right?

A. Yes.

Q. And then it goes to the things that you learn while

you're working, right?

A. Yes.

Q. And things that you learn at seminars or trainings,

right?

A. Yes.

Q. All the way up to the present, correct?

A. Yes.

Q. Your employer does not own your expertise, correct?

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Mary A. Schweinhagen, RDR, CRR (937) 512-1604

140

A. Sorry. I did not catch that question exactly.

Q. Your employer does not own your expertise. That's yours,

right?

A. No.

Q. Now, during this talk that you gave, you talked about

various topics, correct?

A. Yes.

Q. You did not talk about all of the topics that you had

sent materials over, correct?

A. Yes, that's correct.

Q. For example, you sent over materials concerning the

auxiliary power unit, correct?

A. Yes.

Q. APU?

A. Right.

Q. You didn't talk about that, correct?

A. No.

Q. Okay.

A. But it's in the email.

Q. Right. So when you said that during that talk you

provided your expertise -- providing your expertise, there's

nothing wrong with that, right?

MR. MANGAN: Objection.

THE COURT: Sustained as to --

THE WITNESS: I don't --

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GAU - CROSS (Miedel)

Mary A. Schweinhagen, RDR, CRR (937) 512-1604

141

THE COURT: Excuse me. Excuse me. Sustained as to

form.

BY MR. MIEDEL:

Q. Mr. Gau, it's not illegal, it's not unlawful to provide

or offer your expertise to fellow engineers, correct?

MR. MANGAN: Objection.

THE COURT: Objection's sustained.

THE WITNESS: This is not --

THE COURT: Excuse me.

THE WITNESS: Not --

THE COURT: Excuse me, please. The objection is

sustained. He's not a lawyer. You are asking him for a legal

conclusion.

BY MR. MIEDEL:

Q. In your -- well, you were asked on direct examination by

the government about being trained or informed by Honeywell

about certain things that you could not share, correct?

A. That's right. That's security code training.

Q. Right.

A. Every year, could not talk to foreigner.

Q. My question is simply yes or no, right, were you --

A. Okay, sorry.

Q. -- did you receive training from Honeywell on what you

could or could not share?

A. Can you repeat it same question again? Sorry.

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Mary A. Schweinhagen, RDR, CRR (937) 512-1604

142

Q. Yes, sir.

A. A little bit slower. I appreciate that. Thank you.

Q. No problem, Mr. Gau.

You received training from Honeywell about what topics

you could or what materials you could share and which ones you

could not share, right?

A. Yes.

Q. Okay. But Honeywell does not have -- in your opinion,

Honeywell does not have the right to keep you from sharing

your expertise, right?

MR. MANGAN: Objection.

THE COURT: Sustained.

He's going to ask another question.

BY MR. MIEDEL:

Q. I am going to ask you another question.

A. Okay.

THE COURT: And perhaps move along.

BY MR. MIEDEL:

Q. During that talk in October of 2017, you were not asked

specific questions about your -- about Honeywell, right?

A. No.

Q. Okay. Now, after you left China in October of 2017 and

you were back in the United States, you continued to

correspond with Mujin on WeChat, right?

A. Yes.

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Mary A. Schweinhagen, RDR, CRR (937) 512-1604

143

Q. Okay. And, again, those conversations were pleasantries,

right?

A. Yes.

Q. They were not work related?

A. No.

Q. Okay. And then on January 7th of 2018, she sent you this

document with these engineering questions, right?

A. Yes.

Q. And we saw that earlier today, correct?

A. Yes.

Q. And those questions are engineering problems, right?

They are problems that they wanted your help with figuring

out?

A. Yes.

Q. Okay. Those questions do not mention Honeywell at all,

do they?

A. No.

Q. Okay. All right. I'm going to move on to something

different.

You testified that you -- that you pled guilty to a

crime, right?

A. Yes.

Q. Okay. And that crime was evading export restrictions,

right?

A. Yes.

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Mary A. Schweinhagen, RDR, CRR (937) 512-1604

144

Q. And that related to the two files that you had emailed to

Mujin, right?

A. Yes.

Q. Two out of the seven?

A. Yes.

Q. Okay. And those two slides concerned auxiliary power

units, right?

A. Yes.

Q. Which you, in fact, didn't even talk about in China,

right?

A. Not in a presentation.

Q. Yes. And do you understand that to be export controlled,

it means that this APU or auxiliary power unit technology is

on a list of topics or materials that cannot be exported to

another country without a license, right?

A. Yes.

Q. Okay. And you didn't have a license?

A. I don't have license.

Q. Right. So the crime is not that you shared it but that

you didn't have a license to share it, right?

A. That's right, I did not have license.

Q. Now, I think you testified about this on direct already,

but export controlled material is different in your

understanding from trade secrets, right?

A. It's different from --

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Mary A. Schweinhagen, RDR, CRR (937) 512-1604

145

Q. Trade secrets.

A. I don't understand the difference.

Q. Okay.

A. I think they are the same.

Q. Well, what you said on direct was there -- I think you

said there is three sort of classifications, right?

A. Right.

Q. You called it classified material, right? Do you

remember that?

A. Yes.

Q. And that's material that you're not allowed to share with

anyone, period, right?

A. Right, right.

Q. Okay. And then there is a second category --

A. Yes.

Q. -- which you can share with somebody -- with certain

people, right?

A. Yeah. You have to approve the second.

Q. And for that second material, if you have a license to do

it, you can share it, right?

A. Yes.

Q. Okay. So the first category you cannot share, period.

A. Yes.

Q. The second, the material you can share if you have a

license, right?

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Mary A. Schweinhagen, RDR, CRR (937) 512-1604

146

A. Yes.

Q. Okay. So they are different, right?

A. Yes, there's a different. There's a big different.

Q. Big difference. Now, no one ever accused you of sharing

the classified material -- right? -- the secrets, the trade

secrets?

A. Oh, no, no.

Q. No. You were accused of exporting material without a

license, right?

A. Yes.

Q. And that's what you pled guilty to?

A. Yes.

Q. By the way, the two slides that you sent that were export

controlled had to do with auxiliary power units, as we said,

right?

A. Yes.

Q. And those were -- or are they known also as APUs, right?

A. Yes.

Q. Okay. And those APUs on those slides actually concerned

the APUs of the Gulfstream V aircraft, right?

A. It is similar application to helicopter S-92.

Q. Okay. But it's also for the Gulfstream V; isn't that

right?

A. Yes.

Q. And the Gulfstream V was an aircraft that was designed in

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the 1990s, right? Are you aware of that?

A. I think so. I'm not clear about that.

Q. Okay. No problem.

Now, you were also aware that Honeywell works with

Chinese companies, correct?

A. On some of the joint venture.

Q. On joint ventures, right? For example, you know about

the COMAC aircraft C919. Do you know that?

A. Yes. At different division.

Q. Sure. But you're aware of it, right?

A. Yes.

Q. And the C919 is an aircraft or airliner that's made in

China, correct?

THE COURT: Excuse me.

MR. MANGAN: Objection.

THE COURT: We will pause for a moment. Objection.

MR. MANGAN: Scope, Your Honor.

THE COURT: Sustained.

MR. MIEDEL: One moment.

THE COURT: Very well.

BY MR. MIEDEL:

Q. You told us you met with the FBI a number of times,

right?

A. Yes.

Q. Okay. And you -- they asked you a lot of questions about

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the things that you've talked about today, right?

A. Yes.

Q. And do you remember telling them about a colleague named

Ho Kuo-San?

A. Sorry. I did not catch that.

Q. Do you remember telling them about a former colleague at

Honeywell named Ho Kua-San?

A. Could you say that again? Sorry. I apologize.

Q. No problem.

A. Your exact word.

Q. The name of the colleague is Ho, H-O?

A. H-O.

Q. Kuo-San, K-U-O --

A. Oh, yes.

Q. Do you remember telling them about him?

A. In the investigation, yes.

Q. Yes. And that person was another engineer at Honeywell,

right?

A. Yes.

Q. Okay. And when you were in China in 2017, you told

Mr. Xu about Ho Kuo-San. Do you remember that?

A. Recommend the -- right.

Q. You recommended him to him?

A. Yeah, I mention about the name.

Q. Right.

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A. Actually not recommending. I mention the name, yes.

Q. You mentioned the name. And you told him that he was

another engineer at Honeywell, right?

A. Right.

Q. Okay. And Mr. Xu showed no interest in talking to him,

correct?

A. No, no contact.

Q. Okay. I just have a few more questions, Mr. Gau.

So just to briefly recap. You met Mr. Xu for the first

time in Beijing in 2016, right?

A. Yes.

Q. Okay. And he did not ask you for any technical or trade

secret information, right?

A. No. He is very quiet.

Q. Right. And then in November of 2016, he asked you to

send material, and he said it could be any material. You

remember that, right?

A. Yes, I remember that.

Q. Okay. And then at 2017, we just discussed the four

topics of the presentation, and those were very general topics

too, correct?

A. There's the T700.

Q. Yeah, but there were --

A. Four topic.

Q. Four general topics, correct?

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A. Yes.

Q. You said that. And as you just testified during the

presentation, nobody asked you anything about Honeywell,

right?

A. No.

Q. Right. And then the list of things that Mujin emailed or

WeChat'ed you in early 2018 also did not ask you anything

about Honeywell, right?

A. No.

Q. Right. So, Mr. Gau, in all the interactions you've had

with Zha Rong, Mr. Xu, Mujin, during that entire time,

literally no one ever asked you to reveal trade secrets; isn't

that right?

A. No. I remember no, no -- no technical question to me.

MR. MIEDEL: Thank you very much.

THE WITNESS: Thank you.

THE COURT: Have you finished your cross?

MR. MIEDEL: Yes. I'm done. Thank you.

THE COURT: Very well. Redirect.

The government lawyer gets to ask additional questions.

MR. MANGAN: I didn't hear that, Your Honor. I'm

sorry.

THE COURT: The government gets to ask additional

questions.

REDIRECT EXAMINATION

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Mary A. Schweinhagen, RDR, CRR (937) 512-1604

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BY MR. MANGAN:

Q. Mr. Gau?

A. Yes, I'm here.

Q. Thank you. First of all, regarding the WeChats, we saw

the WeChats that you had with someone named YouJun. Do you

remember that?

A. Yes.

Q. When you went to China in 2017, did you talk with Mr. Xu

about that WeChat handle?

A. Yes, I ask him question, is this your handle. The icon

on my cell phone is called YouJun, Y-U-J-A-N [sic].

Q. And what did he say?

A. He said yes, that's his handle.

Q. So he said that was him that was chatting with you?

A. I was not sure. There's a switching point. I am not

aware of when that happened. But I ask him -- after I ask

him, then I realize there's a switching point in between.

Q. Okay. The meeting you had in October 2017, that was not

with any students, was it?

A. That's Mr. X-U I think I met, yeah.

Q. Mr. Gau, the meeting you had in October 2017, do you

remember it?

A. I met him, yes.

Q. Do you remember the meeting you had in China in October

2017?

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Mary A. Schweinhagen, RDR, CRR (937) 512-1604

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A. Yes.

Q. In a hotel room in Nanjing?

A. Oh, yes, I remember.

Q. Were you presenting to students at that time?

A. What's your question? Sorry. I did not hear. Is it

preventing?

Q. I believe you testified before that you -- when you met

with them, you only met with Mr. Xu, Mr. Cai, Mujin, and three

engineers; is that right?

A. Yes.

Q. There were no university students, correct?

A. No, no student. I initially expect some student, but

initially, no. Only three engineers.

Q. You thought it was going to be students --

A. Yeah, I thought.

Q. -- but it wasn't?

A. But no student.

Q. And they did ask you to send materials, correct?

A. You mean send the material?

Q. Didn't they ask you to send the materials to them?

A. Oh, yes.

Q. And they gave you the topics, correct?

A. Yes.

Q. And they provided you payment for that, correct?

A. Yes.

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GAU - REDIRECT (Mangan)

Mary A. Schweinhagen, RDR, CRR (937) 512-1604

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Q. And this is while you worked for Honeywell?

A. Yes, I working for Honeywell, yes.

MR. MIEDEL: Objection. Leading.

THE COURT: Don't lead the witness. Please proceed.

BY MR. MANGAN:

Q. Where were you working during that time?

A. What year?

Q. In 2017.

A. Honeywell. I work at Honeywell.

Q. And in your conversations with Mr. Xu, did he know that

you worked at Honeywell?

A. Yes, I think so.

Q. All right. And for all these meetings that we talked

about in 2017, in 2016, did you tell Honeywell what you were

doing?

MR. MIEDEL: Objection. Asked and answered.

THE COURT: He can answer it again.

THE WITNESS: No. I told them I working Honeywell

in a different field, not propulsion anymore.

BY MR. MANGAN:

Q. Sorry. I meant did you tell Honeywell --

A. Yes.

Q. -- that you were meeting with Mr. Xu --

A. Oh, no, no.

Q. -- in China?

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Mary A. Schweinhagen, RDR, CRR (937) 512-1604

154

A. No, I did not tell Honeywell. For 2016 and 2017 trips,

I did not tell Honeywell.

Q. After you returned from the October 2017 meeting, you

received a list of technical requests?

A. Yes.

Q. And was that from Mujin?

A. Yes.

Q. And did you provide this work?

A. No, no work provide.

Q. Is it possible that if you had done this work it might

have asked for Honeywell information?

MR. MIEDEL: Objection.

THE COURT: Sustained as to form.

THE WITNESS: I --

THE COURT: He's going to ask another question.

BY MR. MANGAN:

Q. I'll ask a new question, okay?

Did these topics touch on or relate to some of your work

at Honeywell?

A. No, it's not -- it's not related to my work at

Honeywell at all because I'm off that propulsion field

already for 20 years.

Q. But did --

A. But in 1997 -- 1996 through 1998, I work at Sky Harbor

division, AlliedSignal at that time. There was propulsion.

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Mary A. Schweinhagen, RDR, CRR (937) 512-1604

155

Q. So that was the work that you did at AlliedSignal?

A. Yes. In 1999, AlliedSignal became Honeywell, and I

already transfer to a different division which is off,

completely off from propulsion work.

Q. Okay. Did this information relate to work that you had

done in the past for AlliedSignal?

A. In the nature, yes, it's in the --

Q. All right.

A. -- turboshaft propulsion field. There are research

question, there are basic question, and they are known

problem questions, but it's an overlap in the propulsion

field.

Q. I want to go back to, there were a number of questions

that defense counsel asked you about your trips in the '90s

and 2000, okay? Do you remember that?

A. Yes.

Q. And he was asking you about what Zha Rong asked of you

during those trips. Do you remember that questioning?

A. Yes.

MR. MANGAN: Your Honor, I'd like to revisit the

question regarding Exhibit 81b.

THE COURT: I'm not sure what revisiting is, but go

ahead. Is there an objection?

MR. MIEDEL: Your Honor, I think we should discuss

this at sidebar.

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GAU - REDIRECT (Mangan)

Mary A. Schweinhagen, RDR, CRR (937) 512-1604

156

THE COURT: All right. I'll see you at sidebar.

It's been a while.

(At sidebar.)

MR. MANGAN: This was the exhibit that we previously

discussed regarding a 2003 tasking from Zha Rong. And they

objected because of the time period, as well as some other

reasons.

Then on cross, they asked a ton of questions about during

these trips they never asked you for trade secrets. They

never asked you for this. This is him sending a letter asking

for it.

And then, secondly, Your Honor, we want to point out we

had asked for this -- the curative instruction we asked for

regarding trade secrets we believe is becoming more and more

of a problem with the line of questioning that they are posing

about nobody asking for the word "trade secrets." We believe

it's -- the cumulative effect is that it's becoming

misleading. But, anyway, I wanted to revisit that question.

MR. MIEDEL: Your Honor, I was very careful not to

open the door on my questions because my questions were did

anyone ask you to reveal trade secrets. The government cannot

argue that this requests or asks for any trade secrets because

it doesn't. And so I didn't ask did they ask you for any

technical information, did they ask you for any engineering

problems. Didn't ask any of those things. I asked

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GAU - REDIRECT (Mangan)

Mary A. Schweinhagen, RDR, CRR (937) 512-1604

157

specifically did they ask for trade secrets, and the answer to

that is no. And this -- even with this in the answer would

still be no.

THE COURT: All right. Last word from the

government. If you wish to be heard. I think I've ruled on

this, and it's not to be used. I'll talk to my law clerk.

THE CLERK: I just have a question. Are any of

these trade secrets? These listed items?

MR. MANGAN: The point we are trying to make, and we

feel it's being blurred by the line of questioning, is that

they continually ask for technical information. They are not

going to use the word "trade secret." And so we wanted to at

least present that they keep asking for technical information

from him.

I believe the last -- I may be misremembering it -- but

he asked about trade secrets, at any time did they ever ask

for trade secrets. And he said they didn't ask for technical

information, even though he's already testified they had.

THE COURT: I am not going -- I'm not -- I'll go

talk to my law clerk if you give me some space. Would you

step back so I can speak with my law clerk.

(Pause.)

THE COURT: I've ruled on this specific document. I

think it's too -- I think it's irrelevant because it's in

2003.

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Mary A. Schweinhagen, RDR, CRR (937) 512-1604

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You are welcome to ask him, they asked you whether

anybody asked you for trade secrets. Did they ask you for

highly technical information. You can leave it at that.

I'll give a curative instruction tomorrow on the trade

secret. Understood?

MR. MANGAN: Understood.

THE COURT: Anything?

MR. MIEDEL: Well, Judge, as you can tell, I spent

almost all of my process about did we ask for trade secrets,

right?

THE COURT: Um-hmm.

MR. MIEDEL: That's the definition of the crime, not

did you send --

THE COURT: What are you trying to get me to do at

this moment?

MR. MIEDEL: No. I am trying to suggest that a

curative instruction is unnecessary because there is nothing

confusing about that. The jury does have to find --

THE COURT: I am going to give a curative

instruction unless I get something from you that knocks me off

it. Let's get these guys out of here.

(In open court.)

THE COURT: I have resolved things, and you are

going to proceed.

You may continue with your questioning, sir, pursuant to

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Mary A. Schweinhagen, RDR, CRR (937) 512-1604

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the sidebar.

BY MR. MANGAN:

Q. Mr. Gau, in your visits to China in 2016 and 2017, did

Mr. Xu and others continue to invite you back?

A. Yes.

Q. All right. And like the list from Ms. Mujin, did they

ask for you to provide technical information to them?

A. I stop after --

Q. But did they ask?

A. Could you repeat again?

Q. Did Mr. Xu and Ms. Mujin ask you to provide technical

information?

A. On the WeChat, those six topics after I return from

China --

Q. All right.

A. -- in this 2017 presentation, and that's all I got is

the six topics, the listing on the Exhibit 89.

Q. All right. And during the October 2017 presentation, did

the engineers ask you technical questions?

A. Yes. I ask them --

Q. Okay.

A. -- what they need exactly.

Q. Lastly, for any of these trips in 2016 and 2017, did you

ever bring your Honeywell computer with you?

A. No.

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GAU - RECROSS (Miedel)

Mary A. Schweinhagen, RDR, CRR (937) 512-1604

160

MR. MANGAN: No further questions, Your Honor.

THE COURT: Very well. It's 4:30. Recross on

redirect?

MR. MIEDEL: Your Honor, very briefly.

RECROSS-EXAMINATION

BY MR. MIEDEL:

Q. Mr. Gau, the prosecutor just asked you -- the prosecutor

just asked you whether you were asked about technical

information. Remember that?

A. Sorry. I do not.

Q. Just now when the prosecutor asked you a question, he

asked whether you were asked by the Chinese people about

technical information. Do you remember that?

A. Yes.

Q. Okay. In your mind, there is a difference between

technical information and revealing trade secrets, right?

A. Yes.

MR. MANGAN: Objection.

BY MR. MIEDEL:

Q. Thank you.

THE COURT: Overruled.

Your testimony is complete, sir. You are free to go.

THE WITNESS: Thank you.

THE COURT: Au revoir. That's French.

THE WITNESS: Thank you.

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Mary A. Schweinhagen, RDR, CRR (937) 512-1604

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THE COURT: Good-bye.

THE WITNESS: I can go?

THE COURT: Yes.

Okay. Ladies and gentlemen of the jury, it's 4:30.

We're going to break for the day. You've been at it. You've

been doing hard work. We recognize and appreciate it.

When you go home and the like, no discussing the case

with anyone, even people you love deeply. No discussion of

the case with anybody. No independent research. Continue to

keep an open mind. I need you in the courthouse at 9:15 in

the event we can get you to the courtroom at 9:30.

Out of respect for you, we'll rise as you leave.

THE COURTROOM DEPUTY: All rise for the jury.

(Jury out at 4:30 p.m.)

THE COURT: The jury's left the room. The door's

closed. You may be seated. Give me just a moment.

We are prepared to recess for the day unless there's

something that requires my attention before we recess. The

jury's left the room.

Does the government have anything at this point?

MR. MANGAN: No, Your Honor.

THE COURT: The defense?

MR. MIEDEL: No, Your Honor.

THE COURT: We're in recess. Enjoy your evening.

THE COURTROOM DEPUTY: All rise. The court is now

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Mary A. Schweinhagen, RDR, CRR (937) 512-1604

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in recess.

(Proceedings adjourned at 4:32 p.m.)

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Mary A. Schweinhagen, RDR, CRR (937) 512-1604

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CERTIFICATE OF REPORTER

I, Mary A. Schweinhagen, Federal Official Realtime

Court Reporter, in and for the United States District Court

for the Southern District of Ohio, do hereby certify that

pursuant to Section 753, Title 28, United States Code that the

foregoing is a true and correct transcript of the

stenographically reported proceedings held in the

above-entitled matter and that the transcript page format is

in conformance with the regulations of the Judicial Conference

of the United States.

s/Mary A. Schweinhagen

__________________________________ 21st of January, 2022

MARY A. SCHWEINHAGEN, RDR, CRR

FEDERAL OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER

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