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1 IN THE UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT

 FOR THE SOUTHERN DISTRICT OF OHIO

2

 - - - - -

3

 Ohio A. Philip Randolph :

4 Institute, et al.,

 :

5 Plaintiffs,

 :

6 vs. Case No.

 : 1:18-cv-00357

7 Ryan Smith, Speaker of -TSB-KNM-MHW

 the Ohio House of :

8 Representatives, et al.,

 :

9 Defendants.

10 ** REVISED **

11 CONFIDENTIAL DEPOSITION OF CONGRESSMAN WILLIAM JOHNSON

12 - - - - -

13

 Taken at Baker & Hostetler

14 200 Civic Center Drive

 Columbus, Ohio 43215

15 December 19, 2018, 8:34 a.m.

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25 Job No. 153105

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1 A P P E A R A N C E S

2

 ON BEHALF OF THE PLAINTIFFS:

3

 American Civil Liberties Union Foundation

4 125 Broad Street

 New York, New York 10004

5 By Theresa Lee, Esq.

6

 ON BEHALF OF THE DEFENDANTS:

7

 Ogletree, Deakins, Nash, Smoak & Stewart

8 4208 Six Forks Road

 Raleigh, North Carolina 27609

9 By Alyssa Riggins, Esq. (Via telephone)

10

 ON BEHALF OF THE WITNESS:

11

 Baker & Hostetler

12 1050 Connecticut Avenue N.W.

 Washington, D.C. 20036

13 By Katherine McKnight, Esq.

 Erika Prouty, Esq.

14 

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1 Wednesday Morning Session

2 December 19, 2018, 8:34 a.m.

3 - - - - -

4 It is stipulated by counsel in

5 attendance that the deposition of Congressman

6 William Johnson, an Intervenor herein, called by

7 the Plaintiffs for cross-examination, may be taken

8 at this time by the notary pursuant to notice and

9 agreement, that said deposition may be reduced to

10 writing in stenotypy by the notary, whose note may

11 thereafter be transcribed out of the presence of

12 the witness; that proof of the official character

13 and qualification of the notary is waived.

14 - - - - -

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1 I N D E X

2 Examination By Page

3 Ms. Lee - Cross 7

4

5 Plaintiff's Exhibits Page

6 Exhibit 1 - Plaintiff's First Request for

 Production of Documents to

7 Intervenor Bill Johnson 13

8 Exhibit 2 - Memorandum in Support of Motion

 of Republican Congressional

9 Delegation, Ohio Voters, and

 Republican Party Organizations

10 to Intervene 19

11 Exhibit 3 - Reply in Further Support of

 Motion of Republican Congressional

12 Delegation, Ohio Voters, and

 Republican Party Organizations

13 to Intervene 33

14 Exhibit 4 - Johnson mailer 45

15 Exhibit 5 - E-mail to Johnson from Mark

 Weaver with trail, 11-16-10 51

16

 Exhibit 6 - Congressman Bill Johnson Political

17 Meetings 56

18 Exhibit 7 - E-mail to Johnson from Palich with

 trail, 11-17-10 61

19

 Exhibit 8 - E-mail to Angela Weaver, Dole,

20 Smullen, and Mark Weaver from

 Hashem with trail, 3-22-11 79

21

 Exhibit 9 - E-mail to Weaver from Dole,

22 4-13-11 82

23 Exhibit 10 - E-mail to Johnson, Hashem, Mark

 Weaver, Van Blargan, and Locke

24 from Smullen, 4-25-11 83

25

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1 I N D E X (Cont'd.)

2 Plaintiff's Exhibits Page

3 Exhibit 11 - E-mail to Crandall, Johnson, and

 Smullen from Anderson, 4-29-11 85

4

 Exhibit 12 - Communications Counsel Memorandum,

5 July 20 87

6 Exhibit 13 - E-mail to Johnson and Mark Weaver

 from Smullen with trail, 7-2-11 91

7

 Exhibit 14 - Communications Counsel Memorandum,

8 August 1, 2011 95

9 Exhibit 15 - E-mail to Johnson from Smullen

 with trail, 7-14-11 97

10

 Exhibit 16 - E-mail to Johnson from Mark

11 Weaver with trail, 7-18-11 99

12 Exhibit 17 - E-mail to Johnson from Hashem,

 7-27-11 102

13

 Exhibit 18 - E-mail to Smullen and Johnson from

14 Mark Weaver with trail, 8-4-11 106

15 Exhibit 19 - E-mail to Smullen and Johnson from

 Mark Weaver with trail, 8-15-11 107

16

 Exhibit 20 - E-mail to Johnson from Smullen

17 with trail, 11-2-11 110

18 Exhibit 21 - NRCC Presentation 112

19 Exhibit 22 - Ohio U.S. House Redistricting

 Map, 2012 plan 116

20

 Exhibit 23 - Blow up of Ohio U.S. House

21 Redistricting Map, 2012 plan 117

22 Exhibit 24 - Ohio U.S. House Proposed Remedial

 Plan 119

23

24

25

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1 I N D E X (Cont'd.)

2 Plaintiff's Exhibits Page

3 Exhibit 25 - Ohio U.S. House Zero Deviation

 Hypothetical Plan 1A 121

4

 Exhibit 26 - Ohio U.S. House Zero Deviation

5 Hypothetical Plan 2A 121

6 Exhibit 27 - E-mail to Mark Weaver and

 Johnson with trail, 7-7-11 125

7

 Exhibit 28 - E-mail to Johnson from Mark

8 Weaver, 12-2-11 127

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10

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1 CONGRESSMAN WILLIAM JOHNSON,

2 being first duly sworn, as hereinafter certified,

3 deposes and says as follows:

4 CROSS-EXAMINATION

5 BY MS. LEE:

6 Q. Good morning, Congressman.

7 A. Good morning.

8 Q. I just introduced myself, but my name

9 is Theresa Lee, and I'm an attorney for Plaintiffs

10 in Ohio A. Philip Randolph v. Smith, a case in the

11 Southern District in Ohio in which you've

12 intervened.

13 I'll ask the other counsel to please

14 state their names for the record.

15 MS. McKNIGHT: Good morning. Katherine

16 McKnight, Baker Hostetler, on behalf of the

17 Congressman.

18 MS. PROUTY: Erika Dackin Prouty, Baker

19 Hostetler, on behalf of the Congressman.

20 MS. McKNIGHT: Ms. Riggins, would you

21 like to announce your presence?

22 MS. RIGGINS: Yes, please. I just

23 wanted to make sure everyone had done because I

24 can't see who's in the room. I'm Alyssa Riggins,

25 Ogletree Deakins, representing the Legislative

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2 Defendants.

3 MS. LEE: Thank you.

4 Q. Congressman, could you please state

5 your full name and address for the record.

6 A. Sure. William L. Johnson, and 519

7 Fifth Street, Marietta, Ohio, 45750.

8 Q. And did you live at that same address

9 in 2011?

10 A. Part of 2011.

11 Q. And at what other address did you live

12 in 2011, if you recall?

13 A. I lived in Poland, Ohio, up until April

14 of 2011.

15 Q. Okay. Thank you, Congressman. And

16 you've just been sworn in. Do you understand that

17 you're testifying here under oath today?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. And do you understand that the oath

20 you've sworn is the same as if you were testifying

21 in a court of law?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. Have you been deposed before?

24 A. No.

25 Q. Have you ever testified under oath not.

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2 at a deposition?

3 A. I don't recall. I did some things in

4 the military that I think I was under oath for,

5 but I don't really recall.

6 Q. Okay. That's fine. I'd like to just

7 go over a few ground rules for today so we're all

8 on the same page. Please make sure that you give

9 a verbal response to each question. As you can

10 see, we have a court reporter taking everything

11 down --

12 A. Okay.

13 Q. -- and she cannot record nods of the

14 head and the like. Do you understand that?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. And to make the court reporter's life a

17 bit easier and so we have a clear record, let's

18 try and not speak over one another. Please wait

19 until I finish a question even if you think you

20 know where it's headed before giving your answer.

21 Can you agree to that?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. Great. And I will try to do the same

24 and wait until you finish speaking before asking

25 another question.

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2 If you do not hear what I have asked,

3 please say so and I will repeat myself. If you do

4 not understand a question or even some part of it,

5 please say so and I will rephrase. Can you agree

6 to that?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Wonderful. And if you answer, I will

9 take that to mean you've understood the question

10 I've asked. Can you agree with that?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. Very good. If at any time you need a

13 break, please say so. I'll just request that if I

14 have asked a question, you please answer it and

15 then we will take a break. Can you agree to that?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. And if at any time you need to consult

18 with your attorney concerning the disclosure of

19 potentially privileged information, please state

20 that is the reason you need to take a break and

21 we'll allow for one to be taken for that

22 consultation. Do you understand that?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. Okay. Very good. And your attorney or

25 attorneys for the Defendants might object at some

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2 point once I have asked a question. Even if they

3 do object, you should still answer the question

4 unless they have directed you not to. Do you

5 understand that?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Okay. Is there anything that would

8 prevent you from answering my questions honestly

9 and completely today?

10 A. No.

11 Q. Thank you. And throughout this

12 deposition, I may refer to the Ohio redistricting,

13 the 2012 redistricting, the 2011 redistricting.

14 Unless I specify otherwise, I am referring to the

15 redistricting of Ohio's Congressional districts

16 that took place in 2011. Do you understand that?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. And if I refer to the map or to the

19 Congressional map or to particular districts under

20 that map, I'm referring to the current map that

21 was put in place as a result of that 2011

22 redistricting. Do you understand that?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. Okay. Very good. Did you do anything

25 to prepare for today's deposition?

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2 A. Other than speaking with counsel, no.

3 Q. Okay. And with whom did you meet to

4 prepare for the deposition?

5 A. With Erika and -- I'm terrible with

6 names.

7 Q. It's okay. Another counsel from Baker

8 Hostetler?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. Okay.

11 A. I'm embarrassed.

12 Q. It's quite all right.

13 A. I can't remember my name on most days.

14 Q. And besides counsel, was anyone else

15 present?

16 A. No.

17 Q. Okay. Did you review any documents as

18 part of your preparation?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. And what documents were those?

21 MS. McKNIGHT: I'll object to that as

22 exploring privileged information, and I'll direct

23 the witness not to answer.

24 Q. Okay. Have you reviewed the complaint

25 in this matter?

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2 A. No.

3 Q. Have you reviewed your motion to

4 intervene?

5 A. I've seen it, but I haven't reviewed

6 it.

7 Q. Okay. Did you review the request for

8 production that was served on you through counsel

9 at some point in this matter?

10 A. No.

11 MS. LEE: Okay. I'd like to mark as

12 Exhibit 1 and ask the court reporter to please

13 hand it to the witness.

14 - - - - -

15 Thereupon, Plaintiff's Exhibit 1 is

16 marked for purposes of identification.

17 - - - - -

18 Q. Have you seen this document before?

19 A. I don't recall.

20 Q. Okay. Are you aware that Plaintiffs

21 submitted requests for certain documents from you

22 and your office in this matter?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. Okay. And did you review the documents

25 that were produced in response to these requests?

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2 A. I saw the documents. I did not review

3 them in detail as they were produced.

4 Q. Okay. And do you know how your

5 documents were collected?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. And how is that?

8 A. In collaboration with counsel and a

9 third-party vendor searching my e-mail.

10 Q. Okay. And did any members of your

11 staff work on the document collection?

12 A. No.

13 Q. Okay. You first ran for political

14 office in 2010; is that correct?

15 A. That's correct.

16 Q. And was your first elected office as a

17 congressperson?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. In each election that you won, have you

20 done so as a Republican?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. Do you communicate with the leadership

23 of the Ohio Republican Party?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. How regularly?

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2 A. I'd estimate less than five times a

3 year.

4 Q. Okay. And at the time of the

5 redistricting in 2010 or 2011, did you ever

6 communicate with the leadership of the Ohio

7 Republican Party?

8 A. Would you ask that again, please.

9 Q. At the time of the redistricting either

10 in 2010 or 2011, did you communicate with the

11 leadership of the Ohio Republican Party?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. And do you recall the substance of any

14 of those communications?

15 A. General election kinds of discussions.

16 I was very new, so they were -- they were general

17 discussions about what the election would be like.

18 My first indoctrination to elected office was a

19 candidate training class put on by the Ohio

20 Republican Party way back in 2007.

21 Q. And did you communicate with the Ohio

22 Republican Party about what the Congressional map

23 would potentially look like?

24 A. No.

25 Q. Okay. Do you communicate with the

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2 elected leaders in the Ohio General Assembly?

3 A. Ask that again, please.

4 Q. Do you communicate with the elected

5 leaders in the Ohio General Assembly?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Does that include with the Speaker of

8 the House?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. And with the Senate president?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. At the time of the redistricting in

13 2010 or 2011, did you communicate with the elected

14 leaders of the Ohio General Assembly?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. And did that at the time include the

17 Speaker of the house?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. And did it include the Senate

20 President?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. Did you have any communications with

23 them regarding the redistricting?

24 A. Only in a very general context, that it

25 was going to occur.

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2 Q. Did you communicate with either the

3 Speaker of the House or the Senate President

4 regarding what your district might look like?

5 A. No.

6 Q. All right. And did you communicate

7 with any other staffers or members of the Ohio

8 General Assembly?

9 A. Let me re-qualify that last answer. We

10 speculated that it was going to change

11 because -- all districts were going to change

12 because we knew at that point that we were going

13 to be losing two Congressional seats, but there

14 were no specifics about what the district would

15 contain or not contain.

16 Q. Okay. And would that same answer be

17 true for communications with any other members of

18 the Ohio General Assembly or their staff?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Okay. And do you communicate with the

21 Governor of Ohio?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. And at the time of the redistricting,

24 did you communicate with the Governor?

25 A. I don't ever recall a conversation with

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2 Governor Kasich at the time.

3 Q. Okay. And of course you are now a

4 member of a 16-person Congressional delegation.

5 Do you communicate with each of those

6 Congresspeople?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Do you more regularly communicate with

9 the Republican members of the delegation than with

10 the Democratic members?

11 A. I think that's fair to say, yes.

12 Q. Do you communicate with the leadership

13 of the National Republican Party?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. And did you communicate with the

16 leadership of the National Republican Party at the

17 time of redistricting?

18 A. No.

19 Q. Okay. Does the National Republican

20 Party in your estimation include the Republican

21 National Committee?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. Okay. And does it include the National

24 Republican Congressional Committee?

25 A. No.

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2 Q. Okay.

3 A. I thought you were talking about the

4 RNC. The NRCC, to me, is something very

5 different.

6 Q. Okay.

7 A. It's more localized.

8 Q. Okay. And do you communicate with the

9 NRCC?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. And did you communicate with the NRCC

12 at the time of redistricting?

13 A. I don't ever recall a conversation with

14 the NRCC at the time of redistricting.

15 Q. Okay. And you, along with the other

16 Congressmen, have intervened in this case; is that

17 correct?

18 A. Yes.

19 MS. LEE: I'm having -- going to ask

20 the court reporter to please mark as Exhibit 2 and

21 hand to the witness.

22 - - - - -

23 Plaintiff's Exhibit 2 marked for

24 purposes of identification.

25 - - - - -

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2 Q. I'm having marked as Exhibit 2 the

3 "Memorandum in Support of Motion of Republican

4 Congressional Delegation, Ohio Voters, and

5 Republican Party Organizations to Intervene."

6 I'll represent to you that this was

7 filed, along with a cover motion, in the Southern

8 District of Ohio so that you and others could join

9 this case as an Intervenor.

10 Have you seen this document before?

11 A. I've seen the document.

12 Q. And do you understand that your

13 attorneys have filed this document with the court

14 on your behalf?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. And do you understand in this document

17 your attorneys make statements on your behalf?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Okay. I'll ask you to please turn to

20 page 3 with me. And in the section below the bold

21 header in the middle of the page, "The Proposed

22 Intervenors," the first sentence reads, "The

23 Intervenor Applicants represent a diverse

24 coalition of registered voters, county political

25 parties, and congressional representatives, all.

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2 whose interests will be directly impacted by the

3 relief Plaintiffs are pursuing in this action?"

4 Do you agree that you're included

5 within this statement as one of the Congressional

6 representatives?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. And the next paragraph referring to the

9 Member Intervenor Applicants as incumbent

10 representatives of Ohio's 1st, 2nd, 4th, 5th, 6th,

11 7th, 8th, 10, 14th, and 15th districts. Do you

12 see that?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. And is it correct that you are included

15 in that group as the incumbent representative of

16 Ohio's 6th district?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. These Member Intervenor Applicants are

19 further defined in the very next sentence. "They

20 were all members of the Republican Party, all

21 registered voters in the district, and all intend

22 to run for election as representatives of those

23 districts in 2018 and 2020."

24 Do you agree that is correct?

25 A. Yes.

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2 Q. Okay. Please turn with me to page 9.

3 In the last paragraph that begins on

4 this page, it refers to elected representatives

5 having a "personal interest" in their district.

6 Do you see that?

7 A. Let me read that statement.

8 Q. Sure.

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. Do you think that is true?

11 A. Do I think what is true?

12 Q. Do you think that incumbents have a

13 personal interest in their district?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. And what is your personal interest in

16 your district?

17 A. To represent the voters that have

18 elected me. I have a responsibility to them.

19 Q. And do you have a specific personal

20 interest in how that district is composed?

21 A. Truthfully, no. There's 721,000 people

22 in a district. I represent the people, not the

23 geography.

24 Q. Okay. And one direct interest that is

25 described in this document is your continued.

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2 incumbency. Do you think you have an interest in

3 your continued incumbency in office?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. How so?

6 A. I want to continue representing the

7 people that I serve.

8 Q. Okay. And did you have an interest in

9 continued incumbency in this district in 2011

10 before the lines were drawn?

11 A. Are we talking about the current

12 district or the district that I had then?

13 Q. What is now the current district.

14 A. No, because I didn't know what the

15 current district was going to be.

16 Q. Sure.

17 A. I had a -- I had a - what was the term

18 you used - personal interest in my incumbency as

19 it related to the twelve counties that I was

20 representing at the time. I had no idea what the

21 ultimate redistricting would look like.

22 Q. Okay. Let's look further at the

23 reasons stated for your interest in this document.

24 Could you please turn to page 11.

25 A. Okay.

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2 Q. It says, begins at the second line in

3 the top, "the Member Intervenor Applicants have

4 invested considerable time and money building

5 coalitions of supporters in their districts,

6 learning their districts, serving the needs of

7 their constituents, raising and spending money on

8 electioneering activities, among other

9 activities."

10 Do you see that?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. Okay. So let's take some of these one

13 at a time.

14 Do you agree that you've invested

15 considerable time and money building coalitions of

16 supporters in your district?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. Can you describe some of these

19 activities or money spends?

20 A. Whether it's meeting with seniors,

21 veterans, students, business owners, school

22 officials, elected officials. Anyone that is a

23 constituent of mine I spend a lot of time and

24 effort and money to meet with them and understand

25 what their issues and challenges are as it relates

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2 to federal policy.

3 Q. And do your coalition-building examples

4 include Democrats?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. Can you describe how so?

7 A. I don't know who my constituents are.

8 There's never a question in my district about a

9 person's party affiliation. We never query a

10 business about whether they are Republican or

11 Democrat or a veteran or a senior. In fact, I

12 meet with Democrats, Republicans, and

13 Independents.

14 Q. Do you ever do outreach to groups that

15 specifically identify as Democrats?

16 A. I'm not sure I understand that

17 question, because there are groups that more

18 closely aligned with Democrats, but they don't

19 necessarily advertise we're a Democrat

20 organization.

21 Q. And you meet with those groups?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. And what are some of those that you

24 have --

25 A. Labor groups that traditionally have.

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2 been more closely aligned with Democrat support;

3 seniors groups. And in my district, party

4 affiliation is more of a geographic area. Some

5 people from some parts of my district, depending

6 on whether it's a suburban or urban area versus a

7 very rural area, some areas are more organized

8 along political lines than others.

9 But there's never a differentiation in

10 my office or in the conduct of my office what

11 party affiliation a person is a part of.

12 Q. And do you ever do outreach to groups

13 that specifically identify as Republican?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. And can you describe some of that

16 outreach?

17 A. It's all of my constituents. So I

18 don't know whether a person is -- when you

19 say -- when you ask me if I'm reaching out to

20 Republicans, the answer has to be yes, because I

21 reach out to 721,000 people, and so there are

22 Republicans in that group, Democrats in that

23 group, and Independents in that group. But I

24 don't -- I don't target a Republican group or a

25 Democrat group.

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2 Q. Okay. So are you testifying that you

3 don't ever have meetings or do outreach with

4 groups that are specifically identified as

5 Republican?

6 MS. McKNIGHT: Objection; form.

7 You may answer.

8 A. Ask that question again.

9 Q. Are you testifying that you don't -- do

10 not ever do outreach or meet with groups that are

11 specifically identified as Republican?

12 MS. McKNIGHT: Same objection.

13 A. I would have to say yes, because each

14 of my counties has a Republican Party, and I

15 occasionally meet with the officials and those

16 members of that county Republican Party, yes.

17 Q. And do you ever meet with the officials

18 or members of the county Democratic Parties?

19 A. I have offered, but very seldom have I

20 been taken up on that offer.

21 Q. Okay. And in the phrase, "very

22 seldom," does that mean sometimes you've been

23 taken up on that offer?

24 A. There are Democrats that come to many

25 of the outreach efforts that I do and they

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2 identify themselves as Democrats.

3 Q. Okay. In this same paragraph, the last

4 sentence of the paragraph at the top of this page,

5 it goes on to say, "if a remedial plan is ordered

6 in this case, the remedial plan could pair two or

7 more of the Member Intervenor Applicants in the

8 same district, which would impede their ability to

9 run for their seats."

10 Do you see that?

11 A. I see that, yes.

12 Q. Okay. Is that a concern that you have?

13 A. And that's the list of Member

14 Intervenor Applicants that we talked about

15 earlier, correct?

16 Q. Yes.

17 A. Well, certainly, because nobody wants

18 to spend their resources on a primary. I wouldn't

19 want to do that, but I'm not in charge of drawing

20 the lines.

21 Q. Sure. Would the pairing of incumbents,

22 was that a concern of yours in 2011 as well?

23 A. No. I was brand new in 2011 and I

24 didn't even know what redistricting was until

25 after I got elected.

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2 Q. Okay. Were you aware that with the

3 loss of --

4 A. I knew that it could happen.

5 Q. Okay.

6 A. I'm sorry. I knew that a pairing could

7 happen because of the 18 to 16. So I knew that

8 that was a possibility, but I didn't worry about

9 it. It wasn't a concern. It was an awareness.

10 Q. Okay. Understood. At the time, did

11 you think there was a particular solution for the

12 needed pairing?

13 A. No.

14 Q. Okay. Were you aware of what solution

15 was settled upon?

16 A. No.

17 Q. At the time, what did you think of

18 the --

19 A. Not until after it occurred.

20 Q. Okay. Understood. And what did you at

21 the time think of the pairing of representatives

22 Turner and Austria?

23 A. I didn't have an opinion.

24 Q. When did you become aware of that

25 pairing?

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2 A. I don't recall the exact date.

3 Q. Was it before or after, if you recall,

4 the legislation being passed in the fall of 2011?

5 MS. McKNIGHT: Objection; form.

6 You may answer.

7 A. I don't recall the exact date.

8 Q. Okay. Do you recall how you became

9 aware of that pairing?

10 A. I don't recall exactly how I became

11 aware, either.

12 Q. Do you have an understanding of why

13 that was decided upon?

14 A. No.

15 Q. Okay. What did you think of the

16 pairing of Representatives Kaptur and Kucinich?

17 A. Didn't have an opinion.

18 Q. When did you become aware of that

19 pairing?

20 A. I don't recall that, either.

21 Q. Okay. And at the time, would you agree

22 that there were many more representatives

23 throughout the State who are geographically closer

24 to each other than were Representatives Kaptur and

25 Kucinich?

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2 MS. McKNIGHT: Objection; form.

3 You may answer.

4 A. Ask that question again, please.

5 Q. Were you aware that there were many

6 more representatives in the State who were

7 geographically closer to one another than were

8 Representatives Kaptur and Kucinich?

9 MS. McKNIGHT: Same objection.

10 A. I didn't really look at the geography

11 other than how it pertained to me. We speculated

12 based on the districts that I bordered, if there

13 was a pairing that involved me, who that pairing

14 might be, but it was a logical -- it

15 was -- because Jean Schmidt was on my southern

16 border. I butted up against Steve Stivers and Pat

17 Tiberi. I also butted up against Jim Renacci and

18 Bob Gibbs. I also butted up against Tim Ryan. So

19 the speculation was if I were to be paired with

20 anyone, it would be one of those simply because

21 their districts joined mine.

22 But I did not look at the geography or

23 the possible pairings of others and didn't recall

24 having any discussions about that.

25 Q. Okay. Do you have any understanding of

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2 why the pairing of Representatives Kaptur and

3 Kucinich was decided upon?

4 A. No.

5 Q. What did you think of the pairing of

6 Representative Sutton and Renacci?

7 A. I had no opinion.

8 Q. Do you recall when you became aware of

9 that pairing?

10 A. I do not.

11 Q. And do you recall how you may have

12 become aware of that pairing?

13 A. No.

14 Q. Do you have any understanding of why

15 that pair was decided upon?

16 A. No.

17 Q. Would you agree that going from 18 to

18 16 seats only required the pairing of two sets of

19 incumbents?

20 MS. McKNIGHT: Objection; form.

21 You may answer.

22 A. No.

23 Q. Would you agree that there was a loss

24 of two seats?

25 A. Yes.

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2 Q. And so at a minimum there would be a

3 loss of two incumbents?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. And so if the mapmakers were trying to

6 minimize the number of lost incumbents, they would

7 have only paired two sets of incumbents?

8 MS. McKNIGHT: Objection; form.

9 A. I don't know what was going through the

10 minds of those that were drawing the maps.

11 Q. Okay. Did you ever have an

12 understanding of why three pairs of incumbents?

13 A. No.

14 MS. LEE: I'm asking the court reporter

15 to mark as Exhibit 3 and please hand to the

16 witness.

17 - - - - -

18 Thereupon, Plaintiff's Exhibit 3 is

19 marked for purposes of identification.

20 - - - - -

21 MS. McKNIGHT: Counsel, before you

22 proceed, I'd just like to note for the record that

23 in this case we've been operating under the

24 understanding that all objections in depositions

25 are reserved except for the objection on form. As

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2 I understand it, we're operating under that same

3 understanding in this deposition; is that right?

4 MS. LEE: Yes, we are.

5 MS. McKNIGHT: Thank you, Counsel.

6 Q. So, Congressman, I've had marked as

7 Exhibit 3 the "Reply in Further Support of Motion

8 of Republican Congressional Delegation, Ohio

9 Voters, and Republican Party Organizations to

10 Intervene."

11 This was filed by your attorneys in

12 further support of your request and the request of

13 the other Congressmen to join this case.

14 And, again, would you agree that, just

15 like the document we reviewed in Exhibit 2, in

16 this document here your attorneys are making

17 representations to the Court on your behalf?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Okay. Please turn with me to page 5 of

20 this exhibit. Beginning four lines above the

21 footnote, it says, "Members of Congress have

22 ongoing and working relationships with these

23 constituents and constituent groups, who turn to

24 members of Congress for a variety of needs from

25 ministerial to substantive lobbying."

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2 A. Let me read that.

3 Q. Sure.

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. Can you please describe some examples

6 of working relationships with constituents on

7 substantive lobbying issues?

8 A. Let's take, for example, coal miners

9 who are in a multi-employer pension fund. Those

10 multi-employer pension funds are in default and

11 over a period of time those pensions and/or at one

12 time the health benefits were not going to be

13 available. So those constituents would come to me

14 advocating for solutions to -- policy solutions

15 that would remedy their loss of their pensions

16 that they had worked so hard for, whether it was

17 through the PBGC or through some other legislative

18 means. That's one example.

19 Oil and gas business owners or other

20 energy developers, whether they are coal companies

21 or oil and gas companies that are trying to

22 develop projects that are being impeded by federal

23 policies or regulations from the EPA or the Army

24 Corps, they would come and talk to me about

25 potential policy solutions regarding that.

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2 The Army Corps of Engineers that

3 maintain the river bank along the Ohio River and

4 the Muskingum River in my district, the erosion

5 issues that occur, mayors and city councils and

6 county commissioners and county engineers come to

7 me advocating for federal policies that would make

8 sure that their erosion issues are adequately

9 addressed by the Army Corps.

10 Those are three examples of those kinds

11 of things.

12 Q. Sure. And do any of these examples

13 include Democratic groups?

14 A. I don't know who they were when they

15 come in. I don't ask them whether they're

16 Democrats or Republicans.

17 Q. Please turn to the top of page 7 in the

18 same document. Beginning on the first line, it

19 reads, "Doing their job well requires unrelenting

20 fundraising efforts that begin the day they are

21 elected to office and continue until they step

22 down or are voted out." Is that correct?

23 A. Unfortunately, yes.

24 Q. Okay. Continuing in this same

25 paragraph, the next sentence reads, "These

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2 fundraising efforts would be wasted if district

3 lines were changed and a member was paired with

4 another incumbent or moved from a favorable to

5 unfavorable district."

6 Do you see that?

7 A. I do see that.

8 Q. What is a "favorable district"?

9 A. My interpretation of this would be my

10 district right now would be favorable to me

11 because I have built those coalitions.

12 A district that has different lines

13 would -- I would have to go back and start from

14 square one, step one in building fundraising

15 alliances and coalitions and getting those voters

16 in those areas that I had not previously

17 represented to get my message out to them to help

18 them understand what kind of representative I

19 would be on their behalf so that they would be

20 more inclined to support me financially, to help

21 me raise the resources to run a campaign.

22 Q. Do you think a "favorable district" has

23 to do with the partisan composition of the

24 district?

25 MS. McKNIGHT: Objection to form.

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2 You may answer.

3 A. No, because if you look at my election

4 process, in 2010 I ran in a predominantly

5 Democratic district and I didn't consider the

6 partisan makeup of that district when I ran. I

7 ran to serve. Excuse me. I ran to serve, and so

8 it didn't matter to me what party the people came

9 from.

10 I would visit -- at that time in my

11 first election I represented Athens County, all of

12 Athens County, which included the City of Athens.

13 I spent a lot of time in Athens talking to college

14 students and professors that I learned afterwards

15 probably would never support me. But that didn't

16 matter to me. It was my job to represent them.

17 And so having an open line of communication with

18 them would help me gain the resources that I need

19 to run a campaign.

20 Q. Would you agree that your district

21 lines will be redrawn following the 2020 census?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. And does a congressman have any say in

24 how those lines are going to be drawn?

25 A. No.

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2 Q. Continuing on in this document, please

3 turn to page 10, if you would. In the second

4 paragraph, beginning under heading B, the second

5 sentence, it says, "But Plaintiffs ignore the

6 reality that redistricting is a zero-sum game."

7 Do you see that?

8 A. In the second paragraph under B?

9 Q. Yes.

10 A. "But Plaintiffs ignore the

11 reality" -- okay.

12 Q. Do you agree that "redistricting is a

13 zero-sum game"?

14 MS. McKNIGHT: Objection; form.

15 A. I don't know what you mean by a

16 "zero-sum game." Can you rephrase that?

17 Q. I don't think I can, as this is from a

18 filing to the Court where your attorneys were

19 making representations on your behalf. Certainly

20 read in the paragraphs around that if you think

21 that would help.

22 A. Let's see. That doesn't help. I'm not

23 sure I understand what -- in this context what a

24 "zero-sum game" means.

25 Q. Okay. In intervening in this case,

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2 your attorneys have described how your and the

3 other Congressmen's interests are different from

4 the other Defendants, which include the leaders of

5 the Ohio General Assembly and the Ohio Secretary

6 of State.

7 Before turning to those particular

8 differences, who's responsible for drawing the

9 Congressional map?

10 A. I don't know.

11 Q. Okay. Who's responsible for

12 administering elections in Ohio?

13 A. Secretary of State.

14 Q. Okay. Do you agree that you have a

15 different interest in the Congressional map than

16 does the Ohio General Assembly?

17 MS. McKNIGHT: Objection; form.

18 You can go ahead and answer.

19 A. I don't know what the Ohio General

20 Assembly's interest is, so I don't know whether my

21 interest would differ from theirs or not.

22 Q. Okay. Do you agree that you have a

23 different interest in the Congressional map than

24 the Ohio Secretary of State?

25 A. I don't know what his interest is, so I

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2 don't know whether mine would differ.

3 Q. Okay. Please turn with me to page 14

4 of Exhibit 3.

5 A. 14?

6 Q. Yes.

7 A. Okay.

8 Q. In the first paragraph at the top,

9 beginning in the second sentence, it says, "the

10 governmental defendants are not charged - and

11 should not be charged - with assisting the

12 Intervenor Applicants in maintaining any

13 particular type or level of electoral

14 participation." They --

15 A. I don't see that. Where --

16 Q. It begins on the third --

17 A. Oh. "To the contrary."

18 Q. Yes.

19 A. Okay.

20 Q. And so the next sentence begins, "They

21 represent 'all citizens,' and, even if they take a

22 view in defense of the law, their representation

23 of all Ohio citizens' competing electoral

24 interests, including Plaintiffs', does not

25 adequately represent Intervenor Applicants'

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2 particular interests."

3 Do you see those sentences?

4 A. Yes, I see the sentences.

5 Q. Okay. Do you agree that Ohio citizens

6 have "competing electoral interests"?

7 MS. McKNIGHT: Objection; form.

8 A. What is a "competing electoral

9 interest"?

10 Q. Again, it's a representation made by

11 your counsel in this filing. I think it perhaps

12 means that citizens have different and potentially

13 competing interests in elections and the outcomes

14 of elections in Ohio.

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Okay. And do you agree that

17 Plaintiffs, individual Plaintiffs, Ohio citizens,

18 in this case, have certain interests?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. And do they have certain electoral

21 interests?

22 A. They're citizens of Ohio, so I'm sure

23 they do.

24 Q. Okay. And we have covered that you

25 have a personal interest in your district,

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2 correct?

3 MS. McKNIGHT: Objection.

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. And do you have certain electoral

6 interests in Ohio as well?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Okay. Lou Ann Booth, a Plaintiff in

9 this case, is a constituent who lives in your

10 district. Is your interest in your district at

11 odds with hers?

12 A. I don't know what her interests are.

13 Q. Okay. One of the interests discussed

14 to support intervention in this case is

15 fundraising; is that correct?

16 A. Ask that again, please.

17 Q. Is one of the interests discussed in

18 support of your intervention in this case

19 fundraising?

20 A. I'd have to go back and look and

21 refresh on what those --

22 Q. Sure. So if we can flip back to the

23 top of page 7 in this same Exhibit 3 --

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. -- the first two sentences here, "Doing

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2 their job well requires unrelenting fundraising

3 efforts that begin the day they are elected to

4 office?"

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. Okay. And that, "These fundraising

7 efforts would be wasted if district lines were

8 changed and a member was paired with another

9 incumbent or moved from a favorable to unfavorable

10 district."

11 A. Yes. Yes.

12 Q. So you agree that one of the interests

13 to support intervention was fundraising?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. Okay. Have you ever used the prospect

16 of redistricting in your fundraising efforts?

17 A. Ask that again.

18 Q. Have you ever used the prospect of

19 redistricting in your fundraising efforts?

20 A. I don't know if this would qualify as

21 using the prospects of redistricting in

22 fundraising specifically. I believe that we noted

23 in some of our fundraising efforts that

24 redistricting was going to occur and, therefore,

25 in my fundraising efforts, getting those who would

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2 favorably commit to supporting my efforts with

3 financial contributions to understand that for me

4 to get my message out as to what kind of member I

5 was going to be representing the people that I

6 represent, that I would need their support in

7 doing that. But I had no role in drawing the

8 district lines, so it's not a direct link.

9 Q. Understood. On page 7 where we had

10 just looked back to, it states that if the lines

11 were changed, "fundraising efforts would be

12 wasted." Why would that be?

13 A. Well, many people, many people

14 contribute to seeing their particular member of

15 Congress elected or reelected, not someone else's.

16 So if they were outside of my district, they might

17 be less inclined to support financially.

18 MS. LEE: Okay. I'd like to have the

19 court reporter mark as Exhibit 4, and please pass

20 to the witness.

21 - - - - -

22 Thereupon, Plaintiff's Exhibit 4 is

23 marked for purposes of identification.

24 - - - - -

25 MS. LEE: Kate, the Bates is chopped

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2 off a little bit here, but it's Johnson 0000, four

3 zeros, 65.

4 MS. McKNIGHT: Thank you.

5 A. Okay.

6 Q. Congressman, do you recognize this

7 document?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. And what is it?

10 A. It looks -- it looks like a mailer.

11 Q. What was the purpose of this document?

12 A. To inform the people of my district

13 that -- what kind of representation I was bringing

14 to the table. Yeah, to inform the people in my

15 district what kind of representation that I would

16 be bringing to the table.

17 Q. Okay. And on the second page of this

18 document, maybe the third column over, titled "The

19 Battle Ahead" --

20 A. Right.

21 Q. -- "Congressional Geography 101," do

22 you recall what the purpose of this particular

23 section was?

24 A. To make sure my constituents knew that

25 district lines would be changing, because we were

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2 going to be losing two seats.

3 Q. And in the second paragraph here, it

4 begins, "During this process it'll be important to

5 look at geography." Do you see that?

6 A. Correct.

7 Q. And what was your consideration in

8 including this in the mailer?

9 A. Well, regardless of who does it, I

10 mean, this is -- this is eight years after the

11 first redistricting effort. I've learned a lot

12 about our state. Geography plays a really big

13 role in drawing district lines in Ohio because of

14 the population centers and where those population

15 centers exist relative to the geography.

16 If you go -- I mean, the formula for

17 drawing district lines is very, very simple in

18 concept. You take the national census. You

19 divide by 435. You come up with a number. That's

20 721,000. You divide 721,000 into the population

21 of Ohio. You come up with a number. It was 16

22 after the 2010 census, so we knew we were going to

23 be losing two seats.

24 So the question, then, is how do you

25 get out of those city centers, Cincinnati,

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2 Columbus, and Cleveland, and get all the way over

3 to the river, to Appalachia, to the rural parts of

4 our state and keep your districts with 721,000

5 people.

6 And so the point we were making,

7 there's always going to be a swath along the Ohio

8 River that someone's going to have to represent.

9 And I'm a country boy, and so I was trying to make

10 the case I'm the guy to represent you. That's the

11 purpose of this mailer.

12 Q. Okay. Thank you. Back in 2010 and

13 2011, did you have familiarity with the

14 redistricting process?

15 A. Very little. I knew it was happening.

16 Q. Do you know who -- what party was in

17 the majority in the Ohio Senate in 2011?

18 A. I knew it was the Republicans, yes.

19 Q. And do you know what party was in the

20 majority in the Ohio House in 2011?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. And what party was that?

23 A. The Republicans.

24 Q. Okay. And do you know who the Governor

25 was in 2011?

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2 A. Yes. John Kasich.

3 Q. And what party was he from?

4 A. Republican.

5 Q. What was your understanding at the time

6 as to how the redistricting process was taking

7 place?

8 A. I didn't have an understanding at the

9 time.

10 Q. Did you know who was organizing it?

11 A. No.

12 Q. Did you know who had final approval on

13 the map before it went to the floor of the General

14 Assembly?

15 A. No.

16 Q. Are you aware that two versions of the

17 redistricting map were passed?

18 A. No.

19 Q. Were you aware of a referendum

20 occurring at the time?

21 A. I vaguely remember the referendum,

22 because I knew that it was in the courts up until

23 late in the year.

24 Q. Who is Mark Weaver?

25 A. Mark Weaver is my general consultant,

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2 political consultant.

3 Q. And is he the principal at

4 Communications Counsel?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. And who is Mike Smullen?

7 A. He's my chief of staff.

8 Q. And did he work on your political

9 campaign in 2011, excuse me, in 2010?

10 A. No.

11 Q. And he's presently your chief of staff?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. And he was your chief of staff at the

14 time of the redistricting?

15 A. I don't remember the date that he came

16 on, but he came on early in 2011. So yes.

17 Q. Okay. And who is Matt Dole?

18 A. Matt Dole works for Mark Weaver. He's

19 a staff member of Communication Counsel.

20 Q. Is it fair to say that Mark Weaver is a

21 trusted advisor of yours?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. And is it fair to say that Mike Smullen

24 is a trusted advisor of yours?

25 A. Yes.

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2 Q. And is it fair to say that Matt Dole is

3 a trusted advisor or yours?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. Did Communications Counsel advise you

6 regarding the Congressional redistricting?

7 A. We talked about it in very general

8 terms, but I had no role in it, so they didn't

9 advise me other than how do we put out a message

10 that would tell my constituents what kind of

11 representative that I would be.

12 And, also, I didn't even know who the

13 stakeholders were that would be making this

14 decision, but I knew that they were out there. I

15 just didn't know who they were. So that was part

16 of our messaging strategy was to let everybody, my

17 constituents and those that would be drawing the

18 district maps, know what I bring to the table.

19 Q. Understood.

20 MS. LEE: I'm going to ask the court

21 reporter to mark as Exhibit 5 and hand to the

22 witness.

23 - - - - -

24 Thereupon, Plaintiff's Exhibit 5 is

25 marked for purposes of identification.

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2 - - - - -

3 Q. Congressman, do you recognize this

4 document? It begins on the reverse side of the

5 page in terms of chronological order.

6 A. Okay.

7 Q. Do you recognize this document?

8 A. Well, it's an e-mail. It's been a long

9 time since I've seen it, but --

10 Q. Okay. I'd just like to discuss a

11 couple of things in this e-mail.

12 A. Okay.

13 Q. If you flip to the reverse side, which

14 is the first e-mail chronologically in the chain,

15 this appears to be an e-mail from you to Mark

16 Weaver; is that correct?

17 A. Right.

18 Q. Okay. And in the third paragraph,

19 you're referring to a meeting you had with Dave

20 Hobson throughout this e-mail. Who's Dave Hobson?

21 A. Dave Hobson is a former member of

22 Congress from down around the Dayton area.

23 Q. Okay. And in the third paragraph it

24 states, "he asked me a question that I did not

25 know the answer to...i.e., what am I doing to

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2 prepare to defend against getting redistricted

3 out?"

4 Do you see that?

5 A. I do.

6 Q. And do you recall that being a concern

7 in 2010?

8 A. You mean being redistricted out?

9 Q. Yes.

10 A. I became aware after I learned there

11 were going to be two seats eliminated that I could

12 be paired with someone, yes. I knew it was a

13 possibility.

14 Q. Okay. And then if you flip to the

15 first side of the page, Mark Weaver's response to

16 you in the e-mail at the bottom of this page, in

17 the second paragraph it states, "Remember, the

18 decision is ultimately up to the General Assembly

19 and that depends a lot on the relationship with

20 those leaders."

21 Was that your understanding of what was

22 important in order to ensure against getting

23 redistricted out?

24 A. Is what my understanding?

25 Q. A relationship with the General

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2 Assembly's leaders.

3 A. I don't know what Mark Weaver meant by

4 his comment there.

5 Q. Okay. And then in your response

6 e-mail, the one immediately above that one,

7 your -- the first paragraph begins, "Agree,

8 totally. That's really the specific question I

9 have. How do I begin now to establish a

10 relationship with those state legislature

11 leaders...before they form their opinions on who

12 should stay or go?"

13 Do you see that?

14 A. I do.

15 Q. And do you --

16 A. I do.

17 Q. Do you recall seeking to establish a

18 relationship with State legislature leaders in

19 2010 and 2011?

20 A. Yes, for many different reasons, not

21 solely because of redistricting. My constituents

22 have issues and concerns that are not federal

23 issues, and so knowing who to contact within the

24 State legislature and the State agencies to refer

25 them to is important.

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2 So the general answer to your question

3 is yes, I did go about building relationships with

4 State officeholders so I could better represent

5 the people that elected me.

6 Q. And was part of the reason in

7 establishing a relationship with those State

8 legislature leaders around their opinions on

9 redistricting?

10 A. Well, keep in -- yes. However, keep in

11 mind what I said down below in the first

12 paragraph. I didn't -- or at the beginning of

13 this e-mail thread. He asked me a question that I

14 did not know the answer to, what am I doing to

15 defend against getting redistricted out. I didn't

16 know that I needed a defense plan to keep from

17 getting redistricted out. And so I thought I

18 needed to let somebody know who I was and that

19 hey, I'm living over here in eastern and

20 southeastern Ohio. This is what I bring to the

21 table.

22 Keep in mind, if you draw Ohio in a

23 quadrant, I am the only federal elected

24 representative of any -- at any level in the

25 southeastern quadrant of the State. Everyone else

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2 is up there. So Appalachia is oftentimes at the

3 back of everybody's mind in Columbus and even

4 further at the back of everybody's mind in

5 Washington, D C. And so I knew that going in. So

6 that's what that answer was referring to, how do I

7 let those folks know, that I'm going to have to

8 work with, who I am and what I am.

9 Q. Understood.

10 MS. LEE: I'm going to ask the court

11 reporter to mark as Exhibit 6 and then hand to the

12 witness.

13 - - - - -

14 Thereupon, Plaintiff's Exhibit 6 is

15 marked for purposes of identification.

16 - - - - -

17 THE WITNESS: Before we ask another

18 question, can we take a quick break?

19 MS. LEE: Absolutely.

20 (A recess was taken.)

21 MS. LEE: Back on.

22 Q. Okay. Congressman, you've just been

23 handed Exhibit 6, which is a document that we

24 received from Communications Counsel.

25 Do you recognize this document?

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2 A. Yes.

3 Q. And do you recall the purpose of this

4 document?

5 A. As I recall, these are -- these are

6 some of the folks that I was mentioning earlier.

7 These are recommendations of people that I should

8 try and get to meet to better represent my

9 constituents when I needed to refer them to State

10 officeholders.

11 Q. Okay. Great. I'd like to -- in the

12 first section, "Party Insiders," do you see the

13 fourth item down, "Jim Tilling, former staff

14 member of re-apportionment board. Helped draw the

15 maps previously."

16 A. Uh-huh.

17 Q. Do you recall the purpose of meeting

18 with Jim Tilling?

19 A. I do not know. And I didn't prepare

20 this document, so I don't know what -- I don't

21 know what the purpose of meeting with Jim Tilling

22 is and I don't ever recall meeting with Jim

23 Tilling.

24 Q. Okay. Do you recall meeting with any

25 individuals in Ohio who previously drew

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2 Congressional maps?

3 A. No.

4 Q. And if you would please turn to the

5 last page --

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. -- of the document, "DC Political

8 Meetings." Do you see that section?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. The first individual listed here is

11 "Tom Whatman. Arrange through NRCC."

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Do you know Mr. Whatman?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. And do you recall what his role was in

16 2011?

17 A. I do not know. I know that -- I know

18 that Tom was on John Boehner's team, John being

19 the Speaker of the House. And so I knew Tom. I

20 saw him when we would have delegation meetings or

21 meetings over at the NRCC, yes.

22 Q. Okay. And so your answer sort of

23 presaged my next question. In general, are there

24 meetings of the Ohio Congressional delegation

25 held?

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2 A. Yes.

3 Q. And do the meetings include both the

4 Democratic and the Republican members of the

5 delegation?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Are there ever meetings held just of

8 the Republican members of the delegation?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. What is the purpose of these meetings?

11 A. To talk about legislative priorities.

12 Obviously John Boehner, being the Speaker of the

13 House, from Ohio, believes strongly that Ohio

14 played a critical role in advancing the priorities

15 of the House, and so making sure that we were all

16 informed so that we could make informed decisions

17 about our votes on policy issues and such.

18 Q. In general, how would meetings of the

19 Republican members of the delegation be called?

20 A. How would they be called? At what

21 time, today, then, now?

22 Q. Sure; excellent clarification. How

23 would they be called in 2010 and 2011?

24 A. As I recall, a notice would go out from

25 the dean of the delegation to -- through their

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2 chief of staff to all of the members' chiefs of

3 staffs and/or schedulers and we'd be notified that

4 there'd be a delegation meeting.

5 Q. And at the time of the redistricting,

6 who was the dean of the delegation?

7 A. Steve LaTourette.

8 Q. Prior to the 2011 redistricting being

9 passed, was there ever a meeting of the Republican

10 members of the delegation held to discuss

11 redistricting?

12 A. Redistricting was a topic of discussion

13 at delegation meetings. I don't recall a specific

14 redistricting meeting that was focused totally on

15 that.

16 Q. Okay. Was there ever a meeting in

17 which redistricting was one of the topics that

18 included both the Republican and the Democratic

19 members of the delegation?

20 A. I don't recall a meeting like that.

21 Q. Okay. Do you recall the nature of the

22 conversation surrounding redistricting by the

23 Republican members of the delegation?

24 A. They were very general, speculative.

25 Everybody knew that we were going to lose two

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2 congressional seats so, as you might imagine,

3 everybody was speculating about how that was going

4 to happen and how it might involve them.

5 Q. Understood.

6 MS. LEE: Okay. I'm going to ask the

7 court reporter to mark as Exhibit 7 and please

8 hand to the witness.

9 - - - - -

10 Thereupon, Plaintiff's Exhibit 7 is

11 marked for purposes of identification.

12 - - - - -

13 Q. Do you recognize this document?

14 A. I do.

15 Q. And what was the purpose of this

16 document?

17 A. It was to notify us of a delegation

18 meeting.

19 Q. And is it correct that the meeting is

20 listed as with Congressman LaTourette because, as

21 dean, he was calling the meeting?

22 A. That's correct.

23 Q. And so in mid November 2010, is it

24 correct you'd been elected to office, but you were

25 not yet sworn in as a Congressman?

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2 A. That is correct.

3 Q. And did you attend this meeting?

4 A. I don't recall.

5 Q. Does this appear to be a meeting that

6 you likely would have attended?

7 A. Can I confer with counsel?

8 Q. Is it regarding privilege?

9 A. Well, I don't know. I don't know what

10 privilege is.

11 Q. Is it regarding attorney-client

12 privilege?

13 MS. McKNIGHT: Why don't we take a

14 moment? Please answer that question. Pardon me.

15 A. I didn't miss any of the activities

16 around orientation. Looking at the date of

17 the -- when the meeting was going to be, I believe

18 that it was during orientation, so I would have

19 been in D.C. So even though I don't remember the

20 meeting specifically, I'm fairly confident that I

21 would have been at the meeting.

22 Q. Understood. Do you want to take a

23 break?

24 A. No.

25 Q. No? You're okay?

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2 A. I'm good.

3 Q. Perfect. And the meeting agenda here

4 is just sort of the mid to bottom of the page

5 including four items.

6 Do you see that?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. And one of the items is "committee

9 assignments."

10 A. Right.

11 Q. Would Representative LaTourette as dean

12 or would Speaker Boehner be the one in charge of

13 committee assignments?

14 A. The committee assignment process was

15 actually a steering committee, a Republican

16 conference steering committee process.

17 Q. Okay.

18 A. Now, I didn't understand that then. We

19 were asked as new members -- there were five new

20 members that year, Chabot, Renacci, Stivers,

21 Gibbs, and me. And we were asked what committees

22 we wanted to be on. I wouldn't know I didn't get

23 the committees I asked for. So it was a steering

24 committee decision, the Speaker having some number

25 of votes as the Speaker in that steering committee

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2 process. And that still exists that way today.

3 Q. Okay. And another agenda item here is

4 "redistricting."

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. Would this be the sort of meeting you

7 referred to earlier where redistricting was one of

8 the topics --

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. -- but not the only topic discussed?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. And do you have any recollection of

13 discussions surrounding redistricting during the

14 orientation period?

15 A. Other than it was going to happen, no.

16 Q. Okay. Putting aside the document we

17 just reviewed, did you ever talk about

18 redistricting with then Speaker Boehner?

19 A. In a one-on-one conversation?

20 Q. Let's start there.

21 A. No.

22 Q. Okay. And did you ever talk about

23 redistricting with Speaker Boehner in a larger

24 conversation than one on one?

25 A. Only in the context of a meeting like

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2 this where we were talking in general about

3 redistricting is going to occur.

4 Q. Okay. Did you understand

5 Speaker Boehner to have some control in the area

6 of redistricting in Ohio?

7 A. I didn't assume that Speaker Boehner

8 would have any control because he's not part of

9 the process. District lines are drawn by State

10 officials. He was a federal official. So I

11 didn't assume anything.

12 Q. Did you ever come to understand that

13 Speaker Boehner had some control in the area of

14 redistricting?

15 A. Again, I did not know what

16 Speaker Boehner's control would have been, role

17 would have been, because he's not a -- he's not a

18 State official.

19 Q. Okay. Is it your understanding that

20 Speaker Boehner played no role in Ohio's

21 redistricting?

22 A. Redistricting is handled by the laws of

23 the State and, as such, Speaker Boehner had no

24 formal role in redistricting in 2011.

25 Q. Did he have any informal role?

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2 A. We talked about it in general and

3 he -- being the senior member of our delegation,

4 he was not the dean. That was Steve LaTourette.

5 He couldn't be both dean and Speaker of the House.

6 So in the context of being the senior member of

7 the State of Ohio, he was the most knowledgeable

8 about redistricting because he had been through it

9 several times before.

10 Q. And did you ever understand that

11 Speaker Boehner or members of his staff had

12 decision-making authority in the drawing of the

13 maps?

14 A. I did not assume that they had

15 decision-making authority because they weren't

16 State officials.

17 Q. Did you ever come to learn that they

18 had decision-making authority?

19 A. No, because I didn't think that they

20 had decision-making authority.

21 Q. And it is -- is it still your

22 understanding today that they did not have

23 decision-making authority in the --

24 A. That is correct.

25 Q. Other than Speaker Boehner, did you

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2 have -- and the general meetings like the one

3 we've just discussed, did you ever have

4 conversations about redistricting with any other

5 Republican members of the Ohio Congressional

6 delegation?

7 A. Everybody was talking about the what

8 ifs, you know, is it going to be me and you, is it

9 going to be you and them, is it -- you know, how

10 is this all going to work out. I mean, there

11 was -- there was a lot of uncertainty and cloud

12 hanging over the redistricting process.

13 Most of us, even the new members, even

14 the returning members, because they hadn't been

15 there long enough except for maybe LaTourette,

16 maybe Tiberi at the time, had ever been through a

17 redistricting process. So we were all very, very

18 naive as to the process and how it worked. So

19 there was a lot of discussion about what ifs.

20 What if it's you? What if it's me? What do we

21 do?

22 Q. Do you recall any particular

23 discussions?

24 A. No.

25 Q. Okay. Did you ever have conversations

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2 about redistricting with any of the Democratic

3 members of the Ohio Congressional delegation?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. And what do you recall of those?

6 A. Same kind of discussions. Tim Ryan and

7 I are close friends. Well, I'm actually friends

8 with all of the Democratic members. I was friends

9 with Dennis Kucinich, as well. So we would

10 have -- on the floor it would be more humor and

11 laughing, you know, what if it's the two of us?

12 What if it's the two of them? How is this all

13 going to work? It was those kind of discussions.

14 Q. Do you recall any discussions with

15 Democratic members that were not of the humorous

16 variety you've just described, but that were

17 regarding the substance of what the redistricting

18 would look like?

19 A. No.

20 Q. Did you ever talk about redistricting

21 with other members of Congress, meaning those who

22 are not from Ohio?

23 A. Not that I recall.

24 Q. Okay. Did you ever e-mail with any

25 Congresspeople about redistricting?

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2 A. I don't recall.

3 Q. Okay. Do you use text messaging or SMS

4 messaging?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. And did you at the time in 2011?

7 A. I don't recall.

8 Q. Do you recall ever texting with any of

9 your staff members about redistricting?

10 A. I don't recall.

11 Q. Do you recall ever texting with any

12 other members of Congress about redistricting?

13 A. I do not recall.

14 Q. Okay. Do your staff people communicate

15 on your behalf?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Okay. Do you know if any members of

18 your staff communicated with other congressional

19 staffers about Ohio's redistricting?

20 A. I don't know.

21 Q. Do you know if any members of your

22 staff communicated with any other elected

23 officials in Ohio about redistricting?

24 A. I don't know.

25 Q. Okay. Did you ever have any member of

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2 your staff reach out to any members of

3 Speaker Boehner's staff about redistricting?

4 A. I don't recall.

5 Q. Do you recall ever having any

6 discussions with any other Congresspeople at the

7 time about where the lines for your district were

8 going to be drawn?

9 A. I had no idea what the lines were going

10 to be, so no.

11 Q. Okay. And as we discussed earlier,

12 you've communicated with other elected officials

13 in Ohio, correct?

14 A. About a specific topic?

15 Q. Just in general.

16 A. Just in general? Yes.

17 Q. Okay. Do you know Tom Niehaus?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. And who is he?

20 A. At the time he was the president of the

21 Senate.

22 Q. And do you know what Tom Niehaus's

23 involvement in Ohio's Congressional redistricting

24 was?

25 A. No.

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2 Q. Did you have any conversations with

3 Mr. Niehaus in 2011 regarding Ohio's

4 redistricting?

5 A. Only to the extent that it was going to

6 happen.

7 Q. And do you know if any of your staff

8 members had any conversations with Senate

9 President Niehaus or his staff regarding Ohio's

10 redistricting?

11 A. I don't recall.

12 Q. Do you know Bill Batchelder?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. And who is he?

15 A. He was the Speaker of the Statehouse.

16 Q. And what was Bill Batchelder's

17 involvement in Ohio's Congressional redistricting?

18 A. I do not know.

19 Q. Okay. Did you have any conversations

20 with Bill Batchelder in 2011 regarding Ohio's

21 redistricting?

22 A. Only in the context that it was going

23 to happen.

24 Q. And do you know if any of your staff

25 members had any conversations with

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2 Speaker Batchelder or his staff regarding Ohio's

3 redistricting?

4 A. I do not know.

5 Q. Did you know Bob Bennett?

6 A. I did.

7 Q. And who is Bob Bennett?

8 A. Bob Bennett at the time that I was

9 elected was -- well, no. I can't -- he was the

10 chairman of the Ohio Republican Party, but I'm not

11 sure he was when I was elected or if he had

12 already left the post. He was there for a while,

13 then he left, and then he came back for an interim

14 period under Governor Kasich. So he had two

15 different tenures, so I'm not sure what his dates

16 were.

17 Q. Okay. And what was Bob Bennett's

18 involvement in Ohio's Congressional redistricting?

19 A. As the Ohio Republican Party chairman,

20 he didn't have a role. I don't know who in the

21 State, what their roles were, but I know as a

22 State official issue, he's not a State official.

23 So I knew that he had no formal role in

24 redistricting.

25 Q. Did you know if he had any informal

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2 role in redistricting?

3 A. I do not know.

4 Q. Did you have any conversations with Bob

5 Bennett in 2011 regarding Ohio's redistricting?

6 A. Not that I recall.

7 Q. And do you know if any of your staff

8 members had any conversations with Bob Bennett or

9 members of his staff in 2011 regarding Ohio's

10 redistricting?

11 A. I do not know.

12 Q. Do you know Kevin DeWine?

13 A. I do.

14 Q. And who is Kevin DeWine?

15 A. Kevin DeWine became the Ohio Republican

16 Party chairman after Bob Bennett.

17 Q. And what was Kevin DeWine's involvement

18 in Ohio's Congressional redistricting?

19 A. He had no formal role, same reason Bob

20 Bennett did not.

21 Q. And do you know if he had any informal

22 role in Ohio's Congressional redistricting?

23 A. I do not.

24 Q. Did you have any conversations with

25 Kevin DeWine regarding Ohio's redistricting?

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2 A. Only in a general context that it was

3 going to happen, much like Niehaus and Batchelder.

4 Q. And do you know Heather Mann Blessing?

5 A. No.

6 Q. Do you have any knowledge of her

7 involvement in Ohio's Congressional redistricting?

8 A. No.

9 Q. Do you know Ray Dirossi?

10 A. No.

11 Q. Do you have any knowledge of his

12 involvement in Ohio's redistricting?

13 A. No.

14 Q. Did you know Tom Hofeller?

15 A. Who?

16 Q. Dr. Thomas Hofeller?

17 A. No.

18 Q. Do you know if he had any role in

19 Ohio's redistricting?

20 A. No.

21 Q. Do you know Mark Braden?

22 A. No.

23 Q. Do you know if Mark Braden had any role

24 in Ohio's redistricting?

25 A. No.

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2 Q. Do you know John Morgan?

3 A. No.

4 Q. Do you know if John Morgan had any role

5 in Ohio's Congressional redistricting?

6 A. No.

7 Q. Do you know Adam Kincaid?

8 A. No.

9 Q. Do you know if Adam Kincaid had any

10 role in Ohio's Congressional redistricting?

11 A. No.

12 Q. And we earlier discussed that you know

13 Tom Whatman; is that correct?

14 A. I do.

15 Q. Do you know what Tom Whatman's role was

16 at the time of the redistricting?

17 A. He was a member of John Boehner's

18 political team in Washington, D.C.

19 Q. Okay. And do you know if Mr. Whatman

20 had involvement in Ohio's Congressional

21 redistricting?

22 A. I do not know.

23 Q. Did you ever have any conversations

24 with Mr. Whatman regarding redistricting?

25 A. Only in a very general context. He

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2 would be present at some of those delegation

3 meetings, and to the extent that redistricting was

4 happening, that was the extent of it.

5 Q. Did you ever have any conversations

6 with Mr. Whatman about what your redrawn district

7 might look like?

8 A. No. And I might point out, John

9 Boehner was very tight lipped. He didn't tell

10 stuff like that. He did not talk. If there was

11 anything to tell, he didn't tell. He didn't -- I

12 mean, if you were to go to John and say John, I

13 want to be on this committee, his response to you

14 would be I think you'd make an excellent member of

15 that committee, but he wouldn't commit. Whatman

16 did not talk about specifics.

17 So in both Boehner's instance and Tom

18 Whatman's interest, any conversations that were

19 about redistricting were at a very general level,

20 the fact that it was happening, that we were going

21 to lose two congressional seats, and that was

22 pretty much the extent of what I knew.

23 Q. Okay. And do you know if any of your

24 staff members or advisors had conversations with

25 Mr. Whatman regarding Ohio's Congressional

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2 redistricting?

3 A. I do not recall.

4 Q. Do you know if Speaker Boehner

5 communicated with the members of the Ohio General

6 Assembly about the congressional map?

7 A. I do not know.

8 Q. Did you ever discuss with

9 Speaker Boehner what you wanted your district to

10 look like?

11 A. No.

12 Q. And at the time --

13 A. I just told him I wanted one.

14 Q. And at the time of the redistricting,

15 did you have particular thoughts about what you

16 wanted your district to look like?

17 A. No.

18 Q. In his role of Speaker at the time, was

19 Mr. Boehner the head of the NRCC?

20 A. No.

21 Q. Okay. And what was Speaker Boehner's

22 relationship to the NRCC?

23 A. He was the Speaker of the House. We

24 had an NRCC chairman. That was Representative

25 Pete Sessions from Texas.

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2 Q. And what is your understanding of the

3 role of the NRCC with respect to Republican

4 members of Congress?

5 A. They are the political arm of the

6 Republican conference. So they advise on

7 elections, provide resources, like campaign

8 strategy, polling information, those kinds of

9 things. So they're sort of the political -- or

10 much like the ORP is the Ohio Republican Party,

11 the NRCC serves the same type of function, only

12 for the Republican conference, much like the DCC,

13 the Democrat Congressional campaign committee,

14 does for the Democrat party.

15 Q. And have you ever attended any

16 presentations by the NRCC related to

17 redistricting?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. And do you recall when those

20 presentations were?

21 A. No.

22 Q. Do you recall how many presentations

23 you attended?

24 A. No.

25 Q. Do you recall the content of any of

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2 those presentation?

3 A. They were very, very general. These

4 are the states that are going to be going through

5 redistricting. There were occasions when we would

6 be informed that -- that a redistricting challenge

7 had been levelled in the courts and that it might

8 be a while before we know what the district lines

9 are going to look like for the next election;

10 very, very general.

11 Q. Have you ever reviewed any materials

12 put together by the NRCC related to redistricting?

13 A. Not that I recall.

14 Q. Okay. Has anyone on your staff

15 attended any presentations by the NRCC related to

16 redistricting?

17 A. I do not know.

18 Q. Has anyone on your staff ever reviewed

19 materials by the NRCC related to redistricting?

20 A. I do not know.

21 MS. LEE: I'd like to mark as Exhibit 8

22 and then please hand to the witness.

23 - - - - -

24 Thereupon, Plaintiff's Exhibit 8 is

25 marked for purposes of identification.

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2 - - - - -

3 Q. Congressman, do you recognize this

4 document?

5 A. Let's see. Yes.

6 Q. And what is this document?

7 A. It's a string of e-mails from Matt Dole

8 starting out and then responses by members on the

9 address list.

10 Q. And is it correct that you are added to

11 this e-mail chain in the last --

12 A. The very top one.

13 Q. The very top e-mail?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. And is Angela Weaver a member of your

16 staff?

17 A. She was at that time. She was my

18 scheduler.

19 Q. Okay. Understood. And in this office

20 e-mail at the top, it's from Pamela Hashem.

21 A. Right.

22 Q. And who is Ms. Hashem?

23 A. She was my fundraiser at the time.

24 Q. And the e-mail states, "All, I have

25 just met with Chairman DeWine and he would like to

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2 see Bill tomorrow as well. He asked that we have

3 our Clegg meeting at the ORP and he can join us?"

4 And is Chairman DeWine referenced here

5 in this sentence, Kevin DeWine; is that correct?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Okay. And what is your "CLEGG

8 meeting"?

9 A. I have no clue.

10 Q. Okay.

11 A. I don't ever recall -- I don't even

12 know who Clegg is.

13 Q. Okay. And if we just look a little bit

14 down --

15 A. Sure.

16 Q. -- to the full schedule update, it says

17 1:00 p.m., it's the fifth item down, "1:00 p.m.,

18 also at the Hyatt: Bob Clegg. Bob is the ORP's

19 liaison to the redistricting process."

20 Do you see that?

21 A. I do see that.

22 Q. And so do you understand that the

23 sentence to be that Bob Clegg, the meeting would

24 not occur at the Hyatt, but would instead occur at

25 the ORP in the top e-mail?

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2 A. Yes.

3 Q. Okay. It states, "He would also like

4 to" underlined, "show us maps they've drawn and

5 talk to Bill about his ideas."

6 A. I see that.

7 Q. Okay. Did you go to such a meeting at

8 the ORP?

9 A. I do not recall such a meeting.

10 Q. And do you recall Chairman DeWine or

11 any other members of the ORP showing you potential

12 maps that they've drawn?

13 A. No.

14 MS. LEE: I'd like to ask the court

15 reporter to mark as Exhibit 9 and please hand to

16 the witness.

17 - - - - -

18 Thereupon, Plaintiff's Exhibit 9 is

19 marked for purposes of identification.

20 - - - - -

21 A. Keep in mind, if I might expand, this

22 was a recommendation from Matt Dole, and by the

23 time I was copied on it by Pamela Hashem at the

24 top, she says is this possible or is the possible.

25 I don't -- I don't ever recall that series of

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2 meetings.

3 Q. Okay. And if you'll take Exhibit 9.

4 A. Sure.

5 Q. Do you recognize this document?

6 A. Let's see. This is from Matt Dole to

7 Mark Weaver.

8 Q. Okay. Do you have any understanding as

9 to why Mr. Dole and Mr. Weaver were running

10 scenarios for redistricting?

11 MS. McKNIGHT: Objection.

12 A. I have no idea what Matt Dole and Mark

13 Weaver were doing. I don't know.

14 Q. Okay. Do you know who "bir" would be

15 in reference to?

16 A. No.

17 Q. Okay. You can put that exhibit to the

18 side.

19 MS. LEE: I'd like to ask the court

20 reporter to mark as Exhibit 10 and please hand to

21 the witness.

22 - - - - -

23 (Plaintiff's Exhibit 10 marked for

24 purposes of identification.)

25 - - - - -

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2 Q. Okay. And, Congressman, do you

3 recognize this document?

4 A. It's a document from my chief of

5 staff --

6 Q. And --

7 A. -- to our political team. Yeah.

8 MS. PROUTY: Can I get a copy? Is

9 there not a copy? I may not have made it. The

10 water interrupted us. Apologies.

11 Q. And you were a recipient of this e-mail

12 as well, correct?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. Okay. Do you have an understanding

15 of -- so the subject line listed here is

16 "redistricting/fundraising talking point."

17 Do you see that?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. How was the fundraising related to

20 redistricting?

21 A. I have no clue. It is not unusual at

22 all after an FEC filing to compare our results

23 with other members to learn lessons learned, are

24 they doing better, are they doing worse, how can

25 we help, how can they help us. So that's -- I

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2 didn't even look at the subject line initially.

3 That's what this appeared to be to me.

4 Q. Okay. Did you ever have an

5 understanding that if a member of Congress was

6 good at fundraising, the delegation would prefer

7 that he stayed a member of Congress?

8 MS. McKNIGHT: Objection; form.

9 A. No. And it's a dad burn good thing,

10 because if that were the case, I would have been

11 gone a long time ago.

12 Q. Okay. But in this e-mail, based on the

13 content, it appears that your filing was better

14 comparatively than these members.

15 A. That particular quarter.

16 MS. LEE: Okay. I'd like to ask the

17 court reporter to mark as Exhibit 11 and please

18 hand to the witness.

19 - - - - -

20 Thereupon, Plaintiff's Exhibit 11 is

21 marked for purposes of identification.

22 - - - - -

23 A. Okay.

24 Q. Do you recognize this document?

25 A. I do.

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2 Q. And what is it?

3 A. It's a -- it is an e-mail from Andrew

4 Anderson, who was a staff member for Pamela Hashem

5 and her consulting group - remember, Pamela was my

6 fundraiser - to our -- Gary Crandall is the

7 chairman of my finance committee, and Mike Smullen

8 and me.

9 Q. Okay. And if you see in the first

10 paragraph, it's second sentence, it says, "As of

11 now Bob Murray has agreed to call Kasich, Boehner,

12 Niehaus and Batchelder on Bill's behalf to discuss

13 redistricting according to Congressman Johnson's

14 e-mail on 4-28-11," and it proceeds to quote an

15 e-mail from you, at least from the face of this

16 document.

17 Do you see that?

18 A. I see. Yes.

19 Q. Okay. Who is Bob Murray?

20 A. Bob Murray is a constituent of mine.

21 He runs a coal company.

22 Q. Okay. And do you recall having him

23 reach out to these Ohio Republicans about

24 redistricting?

25 A. I was having him reach out to lots of

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2 people to demonstrate to them, to tell them that I

3 was the kind of representative that he wanted

4 representing him. But certainly some of those key

5 State officeholders that I, too, had to deal with

6 on behalf of him and my other constituents, yes.

7 Q. And part of the purpose of that

8 outreach was to discuss the upcoming

9 redistricting?

10 A. Again, yes. Again, to demonstrate the

11 kind of representative that I was going to be.

12 MS. LEE: Okay. I'd like to ask the

13 court reporter to mark as Exhibit 12 and hand to

14 the witness.

15 - - - - -

16 Thereupon, Plaintiff's Exhibit 12 is

17 marked for purposes of identification.

18 - - - - -

19 Q. So this document is three pages long,

20 if you'd --

21 A. Okay.

22 Q. -- like to familiarize yourself with

23 it.

24 Do you recognize this document?

25 A. It appears to be a memorandum from

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2 Communications Counsel regarding redistricting

3 hearings around the state.

4 Q. Okay. And do you recall what the

5 purpose of this memorandum was?

6 A. No. I mean, I can read through it and

7 do all kinds of guessing, but --

8 Q. Sure. So based on the face of the

9 document, on the sort of bottom of the first page,

10 after indicating the planned hearings across the

11 state, Communications Counsel recommends, or

12 "suggestion is to identify a few different

13 citizens to attend."

14 A. Right.

15 Q. "They will share their thoughts about

16 how important it is to keep southeast Ohio intact

17 as a legislative district, as well as to reinforce

18 the value of the outreach efforts Bill's put

19 forth."

20 Do you see that?

21 A. I do.

22 Q. And then if you turn to the next page,

23 it appears that there are offered redistricting

24 talking points. Would you agree to that?

25 A. I'd agree that this document offers

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2 some talking points, yes.

3 Q. And it appears to -- scratch that.

4 And so in the second subheading,

5 "Importance of Voice for all of Southeast Ohio,"

6 do you see that?

7 A. I see, yes.

8 Q. And does this section offer reasons why

9 southeast Ohio should be kept together in a

10 Congressional district?

11 A. I don't know what Mark Weaver's

12 intention was when he put these talking points

13 together.

14 Q. Do you see the bullet, "Southeast Ohio

15 citizens have repeatedly been pawns to

16 gerrymandering and political games."

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. Do you have any understanding of what

19 was meant by that?

20 A. No.

21 Q. Sitting here today, do you have any

22 understanding of what was meant by that?

23 A. No.

24 Q. Do you see the sub bullet, "Crazy river

25 district build for Ted Strickland"?

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2 A. I do see that.

3 Q. Who is Ted Strickland?

4 A. Former Governor and former member of

5 Congress from the 6th district.

6 Q. Do you have any understanding of what

7 "crazy river district" means in this bullet point?

8 A. We talk about the Appalachian district

9 along the Ohio River as being crazy because of its

10 geography. It takes six and a half hours to drive

11 from one end of the district to the other. I can

12 get from my house to Washington, D.C. quicker than

13 I can drive from one end of my district to the

14 other. It's one of the larger districts east of

15 the Mississippi. And the way it meanders along

16 the Ohio River, there's no easy way to get

17 anywhere. It's time consuming, a lot of

18 windshield time sitting in the car. So

19 that's -- when we talk internally about us having

20 a "crazy river district," that's what we're

21 referring to.

22 Q. And do you understand this talking

23 point to be critical of the 2002 drawn shape of

24 District 6?

25 A. I do not know what Mark Weaver intended

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2 this talking point to mean.

3 MS. LEE: Okay. Going to ask the court

4 reporter to mark as Exhibit 13.

5 - - - - -

6 Thereupon, Plaintiff's Exhibit 13 is

7 marked for purposes of identification.

8 - - - - -

9 Q. Do you recognize this document,

10 Congressman?

11 A. This is an e-mail from Mike Smullen to

12 Mark Weaver and me.

13 Q. Okay. And the second e-mail down

14 appears to be an e-mail that you wrote on July

15 2nd, 2011.

16 Do you see that?

17 A. Let's see.

18 Q. It's just the second line down.

19 A. On Saturday, July 2nd, 2011? Yes.

20 Q. Okay. And this e-mail chain appears to

21 be discussing an article that Mark Weaver sent the

22 link for the previous afternoon, and the last

23 sentence in the e-mail that you wrote on July 2nd,

24 says, "This article also jives with what Whatman

25 said about our new district potentially being an

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2 R+5 district?"

3 Do you see that?

4 A. I do see that.

5 Q. And do you have an understanding of

6 what "R+5" means?

7 A. Yes. It's the PBI index.

8 Q. Okay. And does that mean that there's

9 a plus five lean in favor of Republicans?

10 A. Yeah. It would be a -- it would be a

11 Republican-leaning district by five points.

12 Q. Okay. Understood. And do you have any

13 recollection of Mr. Whatman saying the new

14 district potentially would be an R+5 district?

15 A. I don't recall that statement.

16 Obviously. I wrote it in this e-mail. I don't

17 know whether I heard someone say that, Whatman say

18 it or whether I heard it directly from Whatman. I

19 don't recall.

20 Q. Okay.

21 A. "Potentially" is the operative word

22 there, because no matter which direction you would

23 go with my district, because it was presumed the

24 geography of the district would get even bigger

25 because we were shrinking from 18 members to 16

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2 members, that -- that there were very few

3 directions that it could go that would increase

4 the Democrat population of northeastern Ohio. The

5 areas that it could potentially grow into were

6 more Republican areas, conservative areas. In

7 general, we knew that by the population.

8 Q. Okay. And in the second paragraph of

9 your e-mail, the July 2nd e-mail --

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. -- the second sentence begins, "But,

12 we'd be wise to assume the worse, continue our

13 strategy of working hard and courting the decision

14 makers, and be thankful if it does not happen."

15 A. Right.

16 Q. "David Locke is putting two $1,000

17 donations in the mail to Neihaus (sic) and

18 Batchelder this week."

19 A. Right.

20 Q. Who is David Locke?

21 A. David Locke was my district director at

22 that time.

23 Q. Okay. And would these $1,000 donations

24 be coming personally from Mr. Locke?

25 A. I honestly do not know what that

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2 statement means, because David Locke did not have

3 any interaction with my finances. If he made

4 donations himself personally, that would have been

5 his business. I'm not aware of that. But I would

6 have not had David Locke do anything in regards to

7 writing checks on my behalf to anyone, let alone

8 to a decision maker. So I'm not really sure what

9 I meant by that at that particular point in time.

10 Q. And do you have any recollection of

11 such donations being made to the Speaker of the

12 House and the Senate president?

13 A. We contributed to State Republican

14 organizations in general. I don't recall. I'd

15 have to go back and look at my FEC reports whether

16 I made any personal contributions to their

17 campaigns. I don't know when Tom Niehaus was up

18 for reelection or Bill Batchelder was up for

19 reelection. I've made personal contributions to

20 State office seekers, candidates, as well as

21 federal. So I don't know.

22 Q. Sitting here today, do you have any

23 understanding of these contributions being related

24 to redistricting?

25 A. No.

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2 MS. LEE: I'd like to ask the court

3 reporter to mark as Exhibit 14 and please hand to

4 the witness.

5 - - - - -

6 Thereupon, Plaintiff's Exhibit 14 is

7 marked for purposes of identification.

8 - - - - -

9 Q. We received this document in its

10 redacted form from Communications Counsel. They

11 redacted all materials not related to

12 redistricting from the memorandum.

13 With that caveat, do you recognize this

14 document?

15 A. I recognize it as a memo from Mark

16 Weaver and Matt Dole, but I don't know who it went

17 to.

18 Q. If you'll flip with me to the last page

19 in the conclusion --

20 A. Right.

21 Q. -- it states, "The leadership update

22 mailer was widely hailed as a pivotal piece during

23 the re-districting process."

24 Do you understand the "update mailer"

25 to be the document you reviewed in Exhibit 4?

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2 A. I do not know what Mark Weaver meant by

3 that statement.

4 Q. Did Communications Counsel or Mark

5 Weaver put together the mailer in Exhibit 4?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Okay.

8 A. And early -- that is a mailer. I don't

9 know if it's the mailer that you're referring to

10 here.

11 Q. Yes. "And early aggressive outreach

12 (and donations) to legislative leaders and others

13 involved in the re-districting process no doubt

14 impacted decision-making."

15 Do you see that sentence?

16 A. I do see that.

17 Q. And do you have an understanding of

18 what Mr. Weaver and Mr. Dole meant by that?

19 A. I have no idea what they meant by that.

20 Q. And sitting here today, do you have any

21 understanding what they meant by that?

22 A. No.

23 MS. LEE: And I'd like to ask the court

24 reporter to please mark as Exhibit 15.

25 - - - - -

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2 Thereupon, Plaintiff's Exhibit 15 is

3 marked for purposes of identification.

4 - - - - -

5 Q. Congressman, do you recognize this

6 document?

7 A. This is an e-mail trail from me to Mark

8 Weaver and Mike Smullen.

9 Q. Okay. Great. And in the first e-mail

10 in the chain from you on July 14th, 2011 --

11 A. Right.

12 Q. -- the subject line is "Redistricting";

13 is that correct?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. And the first paragraph reads, "We are

16 certainly going to keep mum about this, but the

17 word from credible sources last might," I assume

18 it means night, "is that the deal has done...and

19 we have survived. We may even get a sneak,

20 informal view of the new, supposedly much safer

21 district as early as today."

22 Do you have a recollection of this

23 consideration of districts in July 2011?

24 A. I do not.

25 Q. And --

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2 A. I mean, I knew redistricting was going

3 on and it was a work in progress during that whole

4 time.

5 Q. And do you have any recollection of who

6 the "credible source" is referred to?

7 A. I do not.

8 Q. Did you ever view a draft of what your

9 district might look like prior to the time the

10 redistricting legislation was passed?

11 A. I do not recall ever seeing a draft.

12 Q. And in the second paragraph here, it

13 says, "Mark, I've heard repeated accolades on our

14 Leadership Update political piece...the word

15 'brilliant' has been used numerous times to

16 describe it."

17 Do you know if that's a reference to

18 the document reviewed in Exhibit 4, the mailer,

19 Ohio leadership briefing?

20 A. I do not know.

21 Q. Do you have any recollection of any

22 other mailers sent in 2011 that would have been

23 identified as a leadership update?

24 A. I do not, no.

25 MS. LEE: I'm going to ask the court

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2 reporter to please mark as Exhibit 16 and hand to

3 the witness.

4 - - - - -

5 Thereupon, Plaintiff's Exhibit 16 is

6 marked for purposes of identification.

7 - - - - -

8 Q. Do you recognize this document?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. And what is this?

11 A. This is an e-mail from me to Mark

12 Weaver and Mike Smullen.

13 Q. Okay. And the original e-mail in the

14 chain is sent on Monday, July 18th, 2011?

15 A. Right.

16 Q. And the subject line is "Tom Neihaus";

17 is that correct?

18 A. Right.

19 Q. The first sentence is "Talked to Tom

20 today." Would that be a reference to Senate

21 President Niehaus?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. And it relates, "He confirmed that he

24 and Batchelder have committed that Boehner has the

25 lead on the redistricting map...they are going to

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2 support his desires?"

3 What did you mean in this e-mail?

4 A. You know, I don't recall writing this

5 e-mail. And, again, the discussions that we had

6 with -- with Boehner were very, very generic,

7 nonspecific. So I don't know whether I was

8 talking about informing the delegation about the

9 redistricting process -- and it wasn't unusual at

10 the time for us to talk about the redistricting

11 process using the term redistricting map. We knew

12 that the process was going to culminate in a map.

13 And so I think I was talking about the process,

14 not a specific drawing of a document.

15 I know what it says, but I'm -- I don't

16 recall writing it and I don't recall what I meant

17 when I said it.

18 Q. No. I understand what you mean by

19 referring -- that redistricting map captured more

20 than just one specific map. What did you mean by

21 "Boehner has the lead on" what would have then

22 been the redistricting process?

23 A. Again, he was the -- as the senior

24 member of the Ohio delegation and having gone

25 through redistricting before, making sure that

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2 members of the Ohio delegation were kept informed

3 to the extent there was anything to inform us

4 about what the redistricting process was, where it

5 was in the phase, you know, when it would likely

6 be finished, et cetera. Because everybody, again,

7 was guessing at how it might impact them, was it

8 going to change the filing deadline, would the

9 primary stay the same as it had, as it was

10 originally scheduled. Those kinds of questions

11 were coming up because they were -- they were

12 pertinent to our managing our process of getting

13 petitions signed and ready for filing and those

14 kinds of things. So having updates from John on

15 what -- what was happening and how it might -- how

16 it might impact our schedule of things to be able

17 to be ready when the maps -- the map was

18 finalized.

19 Q. And so Senate President Niehaus and

20 Speaker Batchelder as leaders of the Ohio General

21 Assembly would be in charge of the legislature

22 that --

23 A. I do -- they certainly would have

24 probably played a role, but, again, I don't know

25 the process at the State level.

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2 Q. Okay. And the last statement here

3 referring back to Speaker Boehner's lead on the

4 redistricting map, "they," referring to Tom

5 Niehaus and Speaker Batchelder, "are going to

6 support his decision." Did you have an

7 understanding of what you meant by that, what they

8 meant by that?

9 A. I have no idea what John's desires

10 were, because he never shared them with me.

11 Q. But from your conversation referenced

12 here with Senate President Niehaus, was it then

13 your understanding that they were going to support

14 his desires even if you didn't know what those

15 particular desires were?

16 A. They were going to support his desires.

17 I said in this e-mail they're going to support his

18 desires about something, but I don't know what

19 that something is and I don't know what his

20 desires were as it relates to redistricting.

21 MS. LEE: I'm going to ask the court

22 reporter to please mark as Exhibit 17.

23 - - - - -

24 Thereupon, Plaintiff's Exhibit 17 is

25 marked for purposes of identification.

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2 - - - - -

3 Q. Okay. Do you recognize this document?

4 A. This is an e-mail from Pam Hashem to me

5 and Mike Smullen and Andy Anderson, Andrew

6 Anderson, who worked for Pam at the time.

7 Q. Okay. And what is this e-mail

8 regarding?

9 A. It seems like Speaker Boehner was going

10 to come to Ohio to host a fundraising event for

11 me, and we were looking at asking Dave Johnson to

12 see if he would be willing to host the event at

13 either his restaurant or another facility.

14 Bob Sebo is mentioned there. He has a

15 very nice home there in Columbiana County.

16 Q. Okay. And are Dave Johnson and Bob

17 Sebo both constituents in the 6th district?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Okay. In the last sentence of the last

20 paragraph, Ms. Hashem says, "Your commitment to

21 the Speaker will (HAS) also pay off in

22 redistricting."

23 Do you see that?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. What did you understand this to mean?

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2 A. Let's see. Let me read that entire

3 paragraph.

4 Now, your question? I'm sorry.

5 Q. The last sentence there, "Your

6 commitment to the Speaker will (HAS) also pay off

7 in redistricting." What did you understand that

8 to mean?

9 A. I don't know what Pam meant when she

10 wrote that.

11 Q. Okay. Sitting here today, do you have

12 any understanding of what it means?

13 A. No.

14 Q. So this e-mail, we've been going

15 chronologically, and the ones we're looking at is

16 about nine days after the previous e-mail we

17 looked at in Exhibit 16, do you have any

18 understanding that a congressional map was close

19 to being drawn at that time?

20 A. No, because I didn't know the status of

21 the congressional map. Keep in mind, there was a

22 lot of information coming out in the media at that

23 time not just in general discussions among our

24 delegation, but the media was doing extensive

25 speculating about what was going to happen and the

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2 redistricting process. So there was a lot of

3 guessing and anticipating what the eventual

4 outcome might be.

5 Q. Did you ever see any draft of the

6 Congressional -- the first Congressional

7 redistricting map that was passed prior to its

8 passage in the Ohio General Assembly?

9 A. You know, I saw things come out in the

10 media, but I don't know if it was the map prior to

11 introduction into the State Legislature. I do not

12 know.

13 Q. And other than through the media, did

14 you ever receive a Congressional redistricting map

15 from any members of your staff prior to its

16 introduction?

17 A. Not that I recall.

18 Q. Did you ever receive prior to its

19 introduction in the General Assembly a

20 Congressional map from the Ohio Republican Party?

21 A. Not that I recall.

22 Q. Did you ever see a Congressional map

23 prior to its introduction in the General Assembly

24 from any elected officials in Ohio?

25 A. Not that I recall.

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2 Could I trouble you to take another

3 restroom break?

4 MS. LEE: Perfect.

5 (A recess was taken.)

6 MS. LEE: Back on the record.

7 I'm going to ask the court reporter to

8 please mark Exhibit 18 and hand it to the witness.

9 - - - - -

10 Thereupon, Plaintiff's Exhibit 18 is

11 marked for purposes of identification.

12 - - - - -

13 Q. Congressman, do you recognize this

14 document?

15 A. I do.

16 Q. And what is it?

17 A. It is an e-mail from Mike Smullen to

18 Mark Weaver and me.

19 Q. Okay. And the subject line here is

20 "Whatman."

21 A. Right.

22 Q. Is this e-mail in reference to Tom

23 Whatman from Speaker Boehner's team?

24 A. I presume so. Mike Smullen wrote it,

25 so I don't know what he meant if not that.

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2 Q. Okay. And it says, this e-mail reads,

3 "Just talked to Tom and told him what happened

4 night...he actually laughed and said 'no big

5 deal.' He said as this gets closer to becoming

6 public they expect this type of thing to happen

7 but appreciated the heads up."

8 Do you have any idea what this e-mail

9 is regarding?

10 A. I do not.

11 Q. Okay. Do you know if it was in

12 reference to the Congressional map that was being

13 drawn?

14 A. I do not.

15 MS. LEE: I'd like to ask the court

16 reporter to please mark Exhibit 19 and hand it to

17 the witness.

18 - - - - -

19 Thereupon, Plaintiff's Exhibit 19 is

20 marked for purposes of identification.

21 - - - - -

22 Q. Congressman, do you recognize this

23 document?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. And what is it?

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2 A. It is an e-mail from Mike Smullen to

3 Mark Weaver and me.

4 Q. Okay. And the first e-mail on Monday,

5 August 15th, the subject line is,

6 "Austria - Whatman meeting." Is that a reference

7 to then Representative Austria and Tom Whatman?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. And it states, "I'm not supposed to

10 know this, but Whatman met with Austria this

11 morning and told Austria that he'll be running

12 against Turner."

13 And is that a reference to

14 Representative Mike Turner?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. "Austria is apparently furious. Most

17 importantly, Boehner's team has officially

18 delivered that message."

19 Do you understand -- what did you

20 understand this e-mail to mean?

21 A. I didn't write this e-mail, so I don't

22 know what Mike Smullen meant.

23 Q. And upon receiving it, what did you

24 understand him to mean?

25 A. I couldn't speculate, because I don't

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2 know what Mike meant.

3 Q. Okay. And sitting here now, do you

4 have any understanding as to what this e-mail

5 means?

6 A. Well, at some point Austria and Turner

7 found out that they were going to be running

8 against each other. I don't know when that was or

9 how that information got disseminated.

10 Q. Okay. And Mike Smullen is your chief

11 of staff; is that correct?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. And he was your chief of staff in

14 August of 2011; is that correct?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. And do you understand this e-mail to be

17 informing you of Turner and Austria learning that

18 they would be running against each other?

19 A. I understand what's what it says, yes.

20 Q. Do you have any understanding of what

21 it means that, "Most importantly, Boehner's team

22 has officially delivered that message"?

23 A. I don't know what Mike meant by that.

24 Q. And do you understand that to mean

25 anything upon reading the e-mail?

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2 A. No.

3 MS. LEE: Okay. I'd like to ask the

4 court reporter to please mark as Exhibit 20 and

5 hand to the witness.

6 - - - - -

7 Thereupon, Plaintiff's Exhibit 20 is

8 marked for purposes of identification.

9 - - - - -

10 Q. Do you recognize this document?

11 A. Let's see. This is an e-mail string

12 between Mike Smullen and me.

13 Q. Okay. And what is it regarding?

14 A. It -- let's see. I think

15 we're -- we're talking about -- the subject of the

16 e-mail is a speaker event. We're still trying to

17 get John Boehner to come and do a fundraising

18 event for me.

19 Q. Okay. And this e-mail is from November

20 2nd, 2011. Do you see that?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. And did you understand this to occur

23 after the original Congressional redistricting map

24 was done?

25 A. Say that again.

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2 Q. And do you understand this to have

3 occurred after the Congressional redistricting map

4 was passed?

5 A. I do not know when the Congressional

6 redistricting map was passed, so I can't say.

7 Q. Okay. And in the second bullet point

8 down in Mr. Smullen's e-mail, it says, "Boehner

9 and staff have had our back in redistricting."

10 Do you see that?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. What did you understand that to mean?

13 A. I don't know what Mike Smullen meant by

14 that.

15 Q. Sitting here now, do you have any

16 understanding what it means?

17 A. Outside of the context of he kept us

18 informed on the process so that we knew what was

19 happening in terms of timeline. That's all I

20 know.

21 Q. Have you ever heard of project red map?

22 A. No.

23 Q. And I believe you referenced this

24 measurement before, but have you heard of

25 congressional districts being ranked as plus or

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2 minus some number?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Okay. And that's referred to as the

5 PBI, which I believe you referenced before.

6 A. Right.

7 MS. LEE: Okay. I'm going to ask the

8 court reporter to please mark as Exhibit 21 and

9 hand to the witness.

10 - - - - -

11 Thereupon, Plaintiff's Exhibit 21 is

12 marked for purposes of identification.

13 - - - - -

14 MS. LEE: This is a 2012 presentation

15 by the NRCC that we received in discovery,

16 Counsel. For reference it's NRCC 000031.

17 A. Okay.

18 Q. Have you seen this presentation before?

19 A. I do not recall. I'd have to go

20 through it in detail, but I do not recall.

21 Q. You can please flip through it if that

22 will refresh your recollection.

23 A. I mean, I've seen hundreds and hundreds

24 and hundreds of presentations. This looks to be

25 just a general political climate update that we

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2 would have gotten at the NRCC.

3 Q. Okay.

4 A. But I don't recall seeing it.

5 Q. Sure. And across the top, do you see

6 there's four items listed?

7 A. Yeah.

8 Q. "Redistricting, Re-elect" --

9 A. Right.

10 Q. -- "Recruitment," and "Resources." And

11 as to the first, let's see, six pages,

12 "Redistricting" is in blue and the other items are

13 in white.

14 Do you see that?

15 A. Ask the question again.

16 Q. At the top -- yeah. Just that as these

17 first six pages, the word "Redistricting" of those

18 four items are in blue and the other three are in

19 white.

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. And then if you could flip with me to

22 page -- the sixth page. I apologize. They're not

23 numbered.

24 A. Okay.

25 Q. This slide is entitled, "Competitive R

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2 Seat Improved." Do you see that?

3 A. I do.

4 Q. And in the first column, the third

5 entry down says, "OH-6 Johnson R+5 (+3)."

6 Do you see that?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. What do you understand the slides mean

9 with respect to Ohio 6?

10 A. I don't know. I don't know the date of

11 this presentation and I don't know where they're

12 getting that PVI and the results from, so I don't

13 know.

14 I mean, I'm not trying to bleed

15 ignorance. I know that what it -- what it's

16 attempting to say is that something happened that

17 improved the PVI or that they presumed would

18 improve the PVI by three points.

19 Q. And bringing it to plus five, is that

20 correct, or plus five?

21 A. That appears to be so.

22 Q. Okay. And I'd like to turn back

23 briefly to one of the other exhibits. I

24 apologize. Could you turn back to Exhibit 13,

25 please.

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2 A. Yes.

3 Q. Okay. And in that last sentence of the

4 first paragraph from Saturday, July 2nd, said,

5 "The article jives with what Whatman said about

6 our new district potentially being an R+5

7 district."

8 Do you see that?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. Does that refresh your recollection as

11 to what was meant in slide 6 of the presentation?

12 A. No. I don't -- I don't know that I can

13 draw a correlation between those being connected,

14 because neither -- neither Tom Whatman, John

15 Boehner, I, nor anybody else determines what the

16 PVI is. The PVI is totally objective, as I

17 understand it, based on the analysis of pollsters

18 and analysts like Charlie Cook, Stuart Rothenberg,

19 Sabado, and others. So I don't know where they

20 would have gotten this information from.

21 Q. And do you understand the PVI set by

22 those outside groups and individuals that you've

23 mentioned is used by the political parties to

24 assess the strength of Congressional districts?

25 A. Yes.

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2 Q. Did you have any conversations with

3 anyone at the time of redistricting about your

4 district becoming more favorable in terms of PVI?

5 A. No.

6 Q. Okay.

7 A. Other than speculation that, again,

8 because of where my district was located and where

9 it might grow geographically, that was the only

10 context in which it was guessed.

11 MS. LEE: Okay. I'm going to ask the

12 court reporter to please mark as Exhibit 22 and

13 hand to the witness.

14 - - - - -

15 Thereupon, Plaintiff's Exhibit 22 is

16 marked for purposes of identification.

17 - - - - -

18 Q. Do you recognize what's depicted here?

19 A. Yes. This appears to be -- I mean, I

20 can't say 100 percent for sure, but it's pretty

21 close to what my current district looks like.

22 Q. Okay. And I'll represent to you that

23 it is the current Ohio Congressional map.

24 A. Okay.

25 Q. Looking at the map, is there anything

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2 you view as notable about it?

3 A. Notable? My district's big.

4 Q. Fair enough.

5 A. It's long. There are other districts

6 that are big, also, but it's long. That northwest

7 district is also very big.

8 MS. LEE: And I'm going to ask, we'll

9 zoom in and ask the court reporter to please mark

10 as Exhibit 23.

11 - - - - -

12 Thereupon, Plaintiff's Exhibit 23 is

13 marked for purposes of identification.

14 - - - - -

15 Q. And, Congressman, do you recognize

16 what's depicted here?

17 A. It is a map.

18 Q. Okay. And what is it a map of?

19 A. It is a map highlighting a district

20 that looks similar to mine.

21 Q. Okay. And I'll represent to you that

22 this is in fact the current map of the

23 Congressional district.

24 Do you have an understanding of why the

25 district was configured in this way?

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2 A. I have absolutely no idea.

3 Q. Okay. And do you have an understanding

4 that within your district you have five split

5 counties?

6 A. I do.

7 Q. And in general, in redistricting, do

8 you have any understanding of efforts to keep

9 counties and municipalities together?

10 A. I don't know the redistricting process

11 so I don't know what the discussions are. I mean,

12 I've seen -- I've seen the recommendations of

13 various types of redistricting processes that

14 would advocate for that, but I do not know what

15 the redistricting process is and what their

16 considerations are.

17 Q. Okay. And in your current district,

18 would you say this is the same sort of "crazy

19 river district" that was referred to in the

20 earlier communications?

21 A. Oh, yes. This is definitely a crazy

22 river district.

23 Q. Are you familiar with the fact that

24 Plaintiffs as part of their case have submitted a

25 remedial map to the court?

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2 A. No.

3 MS. LEE: I'm now going to have marked

4 and show you a document that shows that remedial

5 map that was submitted.

6 - - - - -

7 Thereupon, Plaintiff's Exhibit 24 is

8 marked for purposes of identification.

9 - - - - -

10 Q. So the remedial map has been marked as

11 Exhibit 24. Do you know which district you would

12 be located in under this map?

13 A. Yeah. It would be the 15th District.

14 Q. Okay. And does this district contain a

15 number of counties that are in your current

16 district as well?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. And is the 15th District in the

19 remedial map more compact than the crazy river

20 district?

21 A. What do you mean by "compact"? Is it

22 not as long?

23 Q. Yes.

24 A. It is less long.

25 Q. Okay. As you sit here today, do you

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2 know of any reason why the Court should not order

3 this new configuration?

4 A. I don't have an opinion as to whether

5 the Court should go with this or not.

6 Q. Okay. Do you have any opinions about

7 the composition of this particular District 15?

8 A. No.

9 Q. Okay. Do you know the counties that

10 are included in this proposed district?

11 A. When you say, "know the counties," I

12 know they exist, but -- but they -- they border my

13 current district. Some of them do. Not all of

14 them, but some of them border my current district.

15 Q. And as you sit here today, are you

16 aware of any reason that you could not represent

17 this district?

18 A. I can represent any district.

19 Q. Are you familiar with the fact that the

20 Plaintiff's expert also drew additional

21 hypothetical maps?

22 A. No.

23 MS. LEE: Okay. I'm going to ask, and

24 I'll mark two at the same time, the court reporter

25 to please mark Exhibits 25 and 26 and then hand

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2 them to the witness.

3 - - - - -

4 Thereupon, Plaintiff's Exhibit 25 and

5 26 are marked for purposes of identification.

6 - - - - -

7 A. I didn't know we had an Ottawa county

8 in Ohio. Okay. I'm looking at 25 and 26.

9 Q. Okay. And these are two hypothetical

10 maps that were submitted to your counsel last

11 month with the supplemental reports of one of our

12 experts.

13 I'll also represent to you that

14 District 6 remains the same between these two

15 maps. Some of the other districts change, but

16 District 6 --

17 A. Okay.

18 Q. -- remains the same.

19 Are you aware of any reason at the time

20 of the redistricting that the map drawers could

21 not have drawn either of these maps?

22 A. No. I don't know the process, so I

23 don't know.

24 Q. And do you see anything on the face of

25 this map, of these maps, that suggest that they

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2 could not have been drawn?

3 A. I wouldn't have an opinion. I don't

4 know the criteria, so I don't know whether they

5 could or not.

6 Q. Okay. And as you sit here today, can

7 you think of any reason why you could not

8 represent the 6th District that's depicted in

9 these maps?

10 A. No.

11 Q. Okay. What e-mail address did you use

12 during 2011, do you recall?

13 A. I used two of them. I used

14 Bill@billJohnsonleads.com and

15 Johnson@billjohnsonleads.com.

16 Q. And in our production I've seen e-mails

17 with both of those addresses. So is it your

18 understanding that in the document collection both

19 of those were searched?

20 A. Oh, absolutely.

21 Q. Okay. Do you keep electronic

22 calendars?

23 A. Do I keep an electronic calendar? Only

24 an official calendar. I don't keep a personal

25 calendar.

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2 Q. And did you keep a personal electronic

3 calendar in 2011?

4 A. No. I only kept an official calendar.

5 My scheduler maintained that.

6 Q. Okay. And we'd already discussed that

7 you have sent text messages, iMessages, Blackberry

8 Messenger, sort of whatever type your phone would

9 use; is that correct?

10 MS. McKNIGHT: Objection; form.

11 You can answer.

12 A. Yes. You know, I'm an IT person, but I

13 am the world's worst for adopting new technology,

14 so I don't recall when I started texting.

15 Q. Okay.

16 A. I honestly don't recall.

17 Q. Do you know if your text message

18 accounts were searched in response to the request

19 for production in this case?

20 A. They were not.

21 Q. Do you keep paper files?

22 A. No.

23 Q. Do you ever take handwritten notes?

24 A. Very seldom.

25 Q. Okay. Do you ever keep handouts or

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2 printouts that you've received at meetings?

3 A. No, because it accumulates and I -- if

4 they're official, I give them back to my official

5 team. If they're political, they change so

6 quickly I don't keep them.

7 Q. Did you ever keep a paper calendar or

8 agenda?

9 A. No, not that I recall.

10 MS. LEE: Can we take five minutes, and

11 then I may be done or close to done.

12 (A recess was taken.)

13 MS. LEE: Back on the record.

14 Q. I just have a few others. Do you,

15 Congressman, keep any social media accounts?

16 A. I -- not personal, no.

17 Q. And do you ever see the posts on your

18 official social media?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Do you know if you've ever had any

21 posts on your social media regarding

22 redistricting?

23 A. Certainly not on my official, because

24 that would be a violation of the separation

25 between official and political. No, not on my

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2 official.

3 Q. Okay. And do you have political or

4 campaign-specific social media accounts?

5 A. I do.

6 Q. And do you know if you've ever had any

7 posts on redistricting on those accounts?

8 A. I do not know --

9 Q. Okay.

10 A. -- but -- I don't think so, but I don't

11 know.

12 Q. Okay. And do you generally oversee the

13 posts on your accounts?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. Okay. I just wanted to mark a couple

16 more things.

17 MS. LEE: I'll have marked as Exhibit

18 27 and please hand to the witness.

19 - - - - -

20 Thereupon, Plaintiff's Exhibit 27 is

21 marked for purposes of identification.

22 - - - - -

23 Q. This is the cover e-mail, I believe,

24 that conveyed Exhibit 12 to you.

25 A. Let me find -- got you.

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2 Q. Okay. Does this at all refresh your

3 recollection of having reviewed this memorandum?

4 A. I'm sorry. Your question again?

5 Q. So the cover e-mail from Matt Dole

6 indicates it was sent both to you and Mark Weaver.

7 Does this refresh your recollection of having

8 reviewed the underlying memorandum?

9 MS. McKNIGHT: Objection; form.

10 You may answer.

11 A. Okay. Let me read from the bottom up

12 here and see what I'm talking about.

13 Q. Sure.

14 A. Okay. Now your question? I'm sorry.

15 Q. Does this refresh your recollection of

16 having reviewed the redistricting hearings memo?

17 MS. McKNIGHT: Objection; form.

18 You may answer.

19 A. If it was attached to this e-mail, I

20 would have reviewed it.

21 Q. Okay. But you don't recall necessarily

22 having reviewed it?

23 A. No.

24 MS. LEE: Okay. And I'd like to have

25 the court reporter please mark as Exhibit 28.

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2 - - - - -

3 Thereupon, Plaintiff's Exhibit 28 is

4 marked for purposes of identification.

5 - - - - -

6 Q. Do you recognize this document?

7 A. It is a document from Mark Weaver

8 or -- well, I write something on December 1st,

9 2011, and then Mark Weaver responds.

10 Q. Okay. And the initial e-mail appears

11 to be Mark Weaver sending along a news article,

12 and then your December 1st, 2011, response

13 indicates, "According to LaTourette, this is not

14 true."

15 And I assume -- is that referring to

16 Steve LaTourette, who was Dean of the

17 delegation at that time?

18 A. Steve LaTourette, yes.

19 Q. Okay. And then states, "Apparently the

20 GOP is doing some jockeying to confuse the issue

21 and make it" - excuse me - "and make it even more

22 difficult for the Dems to get their signatures for

23 the referendum."

24 What did you mean by that?

25 A. I don't recall. I mean, obviously I

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2 wrote it, but I don't recall at the time which GOP

3 I'm talking about and I don't -- without having

4 the article in front of me, I don't know what I

5 was referring to.

6 Q. Okay. Do you have an

7 understanding -- scratch that.

8 Earlier you had discussed when the

9 primary was going to be set. Do you recall that?

10 A. Right, because it differs in

11 presidential election cycles versus the off-year

12 election cycles.

13 Q. Do you have any recollection of the

14 date of the federal primary being changed in the

15 same legislation as the Congressional

16 redistricting?

17 A. I know it changed. I don't know if it

18 changed in the same legislation.

19 Q. Okay. Do you have any understanding of

20 what referendum you were referring to here in this

21 e-mail?

22 A. No.

23 Q. Okay.

24 A. I mean, I knew it was a referendum

25 regarding the redistricting process, because it

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2 was going through the Supreme Court, the Ohio

3 Supreme Court --

4 Q. Okay.

5 A. -- but I don't know the context of it.

6 MS. LEE: Okay. Thank you for your

7 time, Congressman. I have nothing further.

8 MS. McKNIGHT: Thank you, Counsel. We

9 have no further questions.

10 We would like to designate this

11 transcript as confidential pursuant to the

12 governing protective order and we'll leave it at

13 time.

14 MS. LEE: Read and sign?

15 MS. McKNIGHT: Yes. We would like to

16 read and sign. Thank you.

17 THE REPORTER: And you are ordering at

18 this time?

19 MS. LEE: Yes.

20 THE REPORTER: Now, are you ordering a

21 copy of the transcript at this time?

22 MS. McKNIGHT: Yes.

23 THE REPORTER: Counsel on the phone, do

24 you wish to order a copy at this time?

25 MS. RIGGINS: Yes, please. Ogletree

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2 has a standing order.

3 THE REPORTER: I just wanted to check

4 that. Thank you.

5 (Signature was not waived.)

6 - - - - -

7 (Thereupon, the foregoing proceedings

8 concluded at 11:25 a.m.)

9 - - - - -

10

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25 ///

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1 I, William Johnson, do hereby certify

2 that the foregoing is a true and accurate

3 transcription of my testimony.

4

5

6

7

8

9 ____________________________

 William Johnson

10

11 Dated: ____________________________

12

13

14

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1 State of Ohio : C E R T I F I C A T E

2 County of Franklin : SS

3 I, Reva Chafin Mundy, a Notary Public

 in and for the State of Ohio, do hereby certify

4 the within named Congressman William Johnson, was

 by me first duly sworn to testify to the whole

5 truth in the cause aforesaid; testimony then given

 was by me reduced to stenotypy in the presence of

6 said witness, afterwards transcribed by me; the

 foregoing is a true record of the testimony so

7 given; and this deposition was taken at the time

 and place as specified on the title page.

8

 I do further certify I am not a

9 relative, employee or attorney of any of the

 parties hereto, and further I am not a relative or

10 employee of any attorney or counsel employed by

 the parties hereto, or financially interested in

11 the action.

12 IN WITNESS WHEREOF, I have hereunto set

 my hand and affixed my seal of office at Columbus,

13 Ohio, on this 31st day of December, 2018.

14

15

16

17

18 _________________________________

 REVA CHAFIN MUNDY, RPR, RMR, CRR

19 NOTARY PUBLIC, STATE OF OHIO

20

 My commission expires on 01-21-2021.

21

22

23

24

25

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