U.S. DEPARTMENT OF TRANSPORTATION 

OFFICE OF HEARINGS ^ 

LITIGATION SCHEDULING CONFERENCE '^ f'^lj^-i" 

IN THE MATTER OF: 

FEDERAL AVIATION 

ADMINISTRATION, 

Complainant, 

V . 

-^oo i n 

CO ^S ^ nnZD m 

- 59 0 

CO 

FAA No. 

CP10EA0004 

FDMS No. 

FAA-2011-0290 

7 ^ 

0 

EMPIRE FLIGHT ACADEMY, 

Respondent 

Monday, 

November 21, 2011 

The above-entitled matter came on 

for hearing via teleconference, pursuant to 

notice, at 10:30 a.m. 

BEFORE: THE HONORABLE J.E. 

Administrative Law Judge 

SULLIVAN, 

REC 

0EC-2 2W 

HEARING DOCKET 

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APPEARANCES: 

On Behalf of the Complainant, the 

Federal Aviation Administration: 

ZACHARY M. BERMAN, ESQ. 

Of: Office of the Regional Counsel, 

AEA-7 

Eastern Region 

1 Aviation Plaza, Room 561 

Jamaica, New York 11434 

(718) 553-3258 

On Behalf of the Respondent. 

Empire Flight Academy: 

GREGORY S. WINTON, ESQ. 

of: The Aviation Law Firm 

One Research Court, Suite 450 

Rockville, Maryland 20850 

(301) 294-8550 

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P-R-0-C-E-E-D-I-N-G-S 

10:30 a.m. 

JUDGE SULLIVAN: We' re on the 

4 record in the matter of Empire Flight Academy. 

5 This is FAA Docket No. CP10EA0004. Today is 

6 Monday, November 21, 2011, and the parties 

7 have convened for a litigation scheduling 

conference by telephone. 

T h e Federa l Aviatio n 

10 Administration is represented by Zachary 

11 Berman, the attorney of record. Empire Flight 

12 Academy is represented by its attorney of 

13 record, Gregory S. Winton. 

14 Thank you all for joining us this 

15 morning. Do I still have everybody on the 

16 line? I just heard a busy signal. 

17 MR. WINTON: This is Mr. Winton. 

18 I'm right here. 

19 JUDGE SULLIVAN: And Mr. Berman? 

2 0 MR. BERMAN: Here. 

21 JUDGE SULLIVAN: And I'm presuming 

22 I still have the court reporter? 

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1 COURT REPORTER: Yes, ma'am. 

2 JUDGE SULLIVAN: Okay. Counsel it 

3 appears that the matter has been referred to 

4 my docket by Judge Goodwin's agreement, and an 

5 Order of Reassignment was recently filed. 

6 Hopefully, you both received that. 

7 MR. WINTON: Yes. 

8 JUDGE SULLIVAN: Okay. I have had 

9 a chance to review the entire file. So it 

10 appears that there are a couple of things that 

11 we need to discuss and then talking about 

12 setting a trial date. 

13 So I' m going to start with Mr. 

14 Berman first. Mr. Berman, has all discovery 

15 been done at this point from your perspective? 

16 MR. BERMAN: We still could use, I 

17 don't think there's anymore discovery is 

18 necessary. We could, if there's time allowed 

19 that we could do some more, but I don't think 

20 any more discovery is. 

21 JUDGE SULLIVAN: I want to make 

22 sure that I don't cut you off. Are you 

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finished with your answer, sir? Mr. Berman? 

MR. BERMAN: Yes. 

JUDGE SULLIVAN: Are you finished 

with your answer, sir? Mr. Berman, I can't 

hear you. 

MR. BERMAN: Can you hear me? 

JUDGE SULLIVAN: Yes. The 

question is, are you finished with youx" 

answer, sir? 

MR. BERMAN: Yes. 

JUDGE SULLIVAN: Okay. And in 

terms of the exchange of witness lists and 

those kinds of things, have you and Mr. Winton 

exchanged witness lists and completed 

discovery from that perspective? 

MR. BERMAN: No. 

JUDGE SULLIVAN: Okay. Have you 

engaged in any kind of stipulations or have 

you conferred privately for the purpose of 

stipulation? 

MR. BERMAN: No. 

JUDGE SULLIVAN: Okay . Have you 

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1 finished taking all of the depositions that 

2 originally you were planning to take? 

3 MR. BERMAN: I have, yes. 

4 JUDGE SULLIVAN: Have you received 

5 all the necessary answers that you had hoped 

6 to receive in any request for interrogatories 

7 or other kinds of discovery tools that you 

8 have served upon the respondent? 

9 MR. BERMAN: I don't believe I've 

10 served discovery yet. There's nothing that's 

11 owing me that I haven't received. 

12 JUDGE SULLIVAN: Okay. From your 

13 client's perspective, Mr. Berman, how many 

14 witnesses do you think you would need to call 

15 at this point if the entire case went to 

16 trial? And how long do you think the trial 

17 would need to last assuming that you called 

18 the witnesses and they were subject to 

19 vigorous cross-examination? 

20 MR. BERMAN: I think the hearings 

21 should be no more than one day. I have one 

22 inspector witness and one pilot who flew the 

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1 plane. That would be brief testimony. As 

2 well as the company that owned the aircraft 

3 and leased it out to Empire Flight Academy. 

4 JUDGE SULLIVAN: And when you say 

5 the company, I take it you're talking about 

6 the company called Clyde Air Leasing? 

MR. BERMAN: Correct. 

JUDGE SULLIVAN: And are you 

9 talking about calling a person from that 

10 corporation to come and testify in addition to 

11 the one inspector and one pilot? 

12 MR. BERMAN: Yes. 

13 JUDGE SULLIVAN: Okay. Mr. 

14 Winton, why don't I turn to you. Let me ask 

15 you a series of questions that are very 

16 similar to the ones I just asked Mr. Berman, 

17 MR. WINTON: Sure. 

18 JUDGE SULLIVAN: On behalf of your 

19 client have you finished all the discovery 

20 that you had hoped to take in this case? 

21 MR. WINTON: I have, Your Honor. 

22 JUDGE SULLIVAN: Okay. Have you 

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1 had a chance to talk to Mr. Berman about any 

2 kinds of stipulations that the parties might 

3 enter into to limit the areas or the scope of 

4 dispute in this case? 

5 MR. WINTON: We've had several 

6 conversations a s you saw from the file. This 

7 file has been going on for some time. We have 

8 not yet entered into stipulations though, but 

9 I intend to do so. We intend to do so prior 

10 to the hearing in this case. 

11 JUDGE SULLIVAN: Okay. Well, have 

12 you had a chance to obtain, to the best of 

13 your ability, any and all responses to any 

14 discovery that you've submitted such a s a 

15 request for production, interrogatories, that 

16 kind of thing? 

17 MR. WINTON: I have, yes. I would 

18 ask, I guess, i f I can now, Your Honor, the 

19 identity of the three witnesses, although I 

20 believe I have them. But if we can get that 

21 on the record, I think it would resolve any 

22 outstanding discovery issues. 

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1 JUDGE SULLIVAN: Okay. I'll put 

2 that on my little to do list for a moment, but 

3 I want to ask you a couple other questions. 

4 MR. WINTON: Sure. 

5 JUDGE SULLIVAN: Have you had a 

6 chance, apparently not, to exchange your 

7 witness list and to exchange copies of any 

exhibits for trial? 

MR. WINTON: We have, and other 

10 than the request I had just made, which I 

11 probably already have the identities, 

12 everything has been exchanged to my knowledge. 

13 Yes. 

14 JUDGE SULLIVAN: Okay. How much 

15 time, in your opinion, would this trial take? 

16 And how many witnesses are you planning to 

17 call on behalf of your client? 

18 MR. WINTON: Assuming that the FAA 

19 would call their three identified by Mr. 

2 0 Berman this morning, I would anticipate 

21 probably three myself. And I would expect 

22 then at least two days. But I think we 

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1 wouldn't need much more than that. 

2 If it went to a third day, it may 

3 be because you would ask for some time before 

4 rendering a decision. If you're inclined to 

5 render a decision on the record. If it's a 

6 written decision, we could probably do this in 

7 two days. 

JUDGE SULLIVAN: Okay. And in 

9 general, who are you planning to call? 

10 MR. WINTON: I wi 11 call a 

11 representative from Empire Flightways. I 

12 don' t know which one that would be at this 

13 point. 

14 A representative from Glass 

15 Cockpit Aircraft GCA, which was the company 

16 that prior to, well, that's the company that 

17 the lease of the aircraft ownership had with 

18 the flight school to operate the aircraft. 

19 And then possibly an expert or a 

20 mechanic. I'm not sure. 

21 JUDGE SULLIVAN: From your 

22 perspective Mr. Winton, what are the primary 

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1 legal issues or factual issues that are in 

2 dispute at this point? 

3 MR. WINTON: Well, again, Your 

4 Honor, based on this history of the file, 

5 initially, the FAA, it's improper identity of 

6 the party responsible for the violation, if a 

7 violation occurred. 

8 So number one, we contend that no 

9 violation did, in fact, occur with regard to 

10 any operator of the aircraft. 

11 The legal definition of an 

12 operator of an aircraft is the person that 

13 uses or authorizes the use of the aircraft. 

14 It could be the pilot. It could be the 

15 owner/operator or it could be a corporation or 

16 an entity that holds a lease that authorizes 

17 it to operate the aircraft. 

18 Clearly, in this case, the only 

19 insurance policy that was issued that would 

20 cover any loss involved with the operation of 

21 the aircraft was issued to a company by the 

22 name GCA or Glass Cockpit Aircraft. 

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1 GCA was, and still is, an entity 

2 that was set up solely for the purpose of 

providing flight instruction in these new type 

4 technologically advanced aircraft for which 

5 the Diamond aircraft involved in this case was 

6 such a technologically advanced aircraft. 

7 The owner of the aircraft entered 

a lease agreement with Glass Cockpit. Part of 

9 that lease was Glass Cockpit went and obtained 

10 an insurance policy to cover the use and 

11 authorized use of the aircraft, along with a 

12 fleet of other aircraft that it maintained and 

13 managed. 

14 At some point in time. Glass 

15 Cockpit moved from one part of the airport 

16 over to another part of the airport and 

17 subleased space from Empire Flight Academy and 

18 Empire Airways. 

19 The FAA decided to bring this 

20 particular case first against Empire Airways, 

21 which is a charter operator and doesn't do 

2 2 flight instruction. That case was dismissed 

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1 and attorney's fees were granted against the 

2 FAA. 

3 The FAA then re-filed the case 

4 against Empire Airways. And what I've told 

5 Mr. Berman all along --

6 JUDGE SULLIVAN: I'm sorry. 

7 MR. WINTON: Go ahead. 

8 JUDGE SULLIVAN: I'm going to stop 

9 you. 

10 MR. WINTON: Sure. 

11 JUDGE SULLIVAN: You originally 

12 said that the first case was filed against 

13 Empire Airways, and then it was dismissed with 

14 attorney's fees awarded. 

15 MR. WINTON: Correct. 

16 JUDGE SULLIVAN: The case was then 

17 re-filed, and it was my understanding that it 

18 was re-filed against Empire Flight Academy the 

19 second time, or is that --

20 MR. WINTON: Correct. 

21 JUDGE SULLIVAN: Okay. Go ahead. 

22 MR. WINTON: Okay. So the timing 

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1 of when the aircraft was being operated by 

2 Glass Cockpit, when they moved from their 

3 former location to'the present location at the 

4 time of the incident was leasing space from 

5 Empire Airways/Empire Flight Academy. They 

6 all shared a hangar on a different part of the 

airport. Same airport. 

If you look at the billing, the 

9 billing was still going to the owner of the 

aircraft for maintaining, managing and 

11 operating the aircraft from Glass Cockpit to 

12 the owner. But since Empire Flight Academy 

13 was helping out with leasing them space and 

14 -doing some of their internal paperwork, it 

15 came from Empire Flight Academy but still was 

16 being billed by and the credits were being 

17 given to Glass Cockpit. 

18 So we have a situation where when 

19 the incident occurred, Glass Cockpit was the 

2 0 one that had the sole insurance policy to 

21 operate the aircraft. They were leasing space 

22 from Empire Flight Academy and their billing 

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1 code was still being used in the Empire Flight 

2 Academy billing invoices. 

3 The idea was, eventually, Empire 

4 Flight Academy was going to take over Glass 

5 Cockpit. That never occurred. 

6 And I just did a business search 

7 in the state of New York. Glass Cockpit is 

8 still open as a business in New York, but I 

9 don't think they're doing business as a flight 

10 school anymore. But I don't know that to be 

11 the case, because that's not my client. 

12 JUDGE SULLIVAN: It appeared from 

13 the Mot ion for Summary Judgment and, the 

14 response to the summary judgment motion, that 

15 the Glass Cockpit aircraft was operating from 

16 September 1 of 2008 through September 1 of 

17 2009. 

18 And then your client was in 

19 operation from September 1, 2009 through 

20 September 1, 2010. 

21 The period of time that I see that 

22 has been alleged a s being problematic in this 

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1 period is between April of '09 through June of 

2 '09. Which according to at least your 

3 material, you indicated in your materials that 

4 the Glass Cockpit aircraft was the sole 

5 operator. Is that right? 

6 MR. WINTON: That's correct. 

7 JUDGE SULLIVAN: Okay. Your 

client is asserting that it has no influence, 

9 no shared activities essentially with this 

10 other corporation that's independent from it 

11 in all aspects. 

12 MR. WINTON: Well, when we say 

13 shared, again, my understanding, and I've have 

14 to speak to somebody from Glass Cockpits, was 

15 that they were leasing space and that we were 

16 doing the billing. Well, we. Empire was 

17 doing the billing for Glass Cockpit. 

18 Now, it also may be that the 

19 maintenance. Again, they combined the 

2 0 companies. The maintenance may have been 

21 performed by Empire Flight Academy on a 

22 contract with Glass Cockpit on behalf of the 

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1 owner of the aircraft. 

2 And, you know, we talk about 

3 maintenance. I think that really is what this 

4 case comes down to. That it was potentially 

5 or allegedly improperly maintained. 

6 Well, we had a mechanic who's 

7 working as an independent mechanic. Whether 

8 the payroll's from Empire or not, that if a 

9 mechanic signs off work pursuant to the 

10 Federal Aviation Regulations, Empire, the 

11 owner of the aircraft to Glass Cockpits, all 

12 have to rely upon the signature of that 

13 independent mechanic. If the aircraft has 

14 been returned to service. Meaning that it is 

15 airworthy. 

16 If every owner/operator had to go 

17 beyond the signature of a mechanic, and 

18 actually do an independent investigation to 

19 determine if that signature is proper and the 

2 0 aircraft actually is airworthy, it would 

21 require every owner/operator to get two 

22 mechanics, one to check the other one's work. 

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1 And that's not how the Regulations are 

2 drafted. 

3 JUDGE SULLIVAN: Well, part of 

4 your defense essentially would be that if 

5 there was any problem, the FAA should be going 

6 after an independent contractor mechanic as 

7 opposed to your company or even Glass Cockpit 

8 Aircraft. 

9 MR. WINTON: Correct. And I don't 

10 want to phrase it as an independent 

11 contractor. If the person was an employee, in 

12 the sense of aircraft maintenance, there were 

13 two types of aircraft technicians that can 

14 perform maintenance on an aircraft in 

15 accordance with the Federal Aviation 

16 Regulations. 

17 One is a mechanic that has an 

18 individual Airframe and Powerplant 

19 Certificate, which has a number assigned by 

2 0 the FAA. And that number, like a license 

21 number, needs to be on each and every sign off 

22 that that mechanic does on work performed on 

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1 an aircraft. 

2 The alternative is a certified 

3 repair station. And if Empire was a certified 

4 repair station, any violation with regard to 

5 the maintenance performed would then go 

6 against the company and not the independent 

7 mechanic. 

8 And that' s not the case here. 

9 It's the independent mechanic that signed off 

10 the work with his particular A&P, Aircraft and 

11 Powerplant mechanic number. 

12 JUDGE SULLIVAN: And are you 

13 planning as part of your pretrial work to 

14 provide me and the other side with legal 

15 authority to support that position? 

16 MR. WINTON: Sure. We'll give you 

17 a pretrial brief. If you wanted us to, I 

18 think it would be a waste, but I could 

19 certainly renew the Motion for Summary 

2 0 Judgment with some of these additional 

21 arguments that I made. Because some 

22 additional information did come my way. For 

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1 instance, the Glass Cockpit business 

2 certificate from the state of New York. 

3 And I could put some additional 

4 law in there and possibly get an affidavit 

5 either from somebody from Glass Cockpit and/or 

6 somebody from Empire. But I don't know that 

7 you want to entertain another Motion for 

8 Summary Judgment. You tell me what you'd like 

9 and we'll do whatever the Judge would like. 

10 JUDGE SULLIVAN: Thank you. 

11 Anything else that you'd like to say at this 

12 point before I turn back to Mr. Berman? 

13 MR. WINTON: Nothing on behalf of 

14 my client, Judge. 

15 JUDGE SULLIVAN: Mr. Berman. 

16 Let's start with the identity of your 

17 witnesses, the inspector, the pilot and the 

18 one layperson. Have you had a chance to 

19 provide that information, at least in writing, 

20 to Mr. Winton? 

21 MR. BERMAN: I believe in my 

22 original discovery responses, I listed Eric 

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1 Claros, the pilot, and Louis Misiano. I would 

2 also add as a witness the owner of Clyde 

3 Leasing who wrote a statement. I don't have 

4 his name. All right. His name is in the 

5 paperwork. I don't have it off hand. I can 

6 get it. 

7 JUDGE SULLIVAN: Okay. 

8 MR. BERMAN: You know, I could get 

9 that to him right after the conference. 

10 JUDGE SULLIVAN: Okay. There's 

11 been a suggestion that part of this case could 

12 be resolved by a Renewed Motion for Summary 

13 Judgment. Do you have any response to that? 

14 MR. BERMAN: Well, it's already 

15 been, I don't know what new information he 

16 has, but I think that there are issues that 

17 can be resolved without having to go to a 

18 hearing. It would probably be, there are a 

19 lot of facts that are not in dispute. 

20 And I think this case is a type of 

21 case that it would behoove everybody to enter 

22 into stipulation a s far a s summary judgment. 

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1 Of course, we would attend any summary 

2 judgment in favor of respondent. 

3 JUDGE SULLIVAN: I'm going to stop 

4 you. I couldn' t hear that last portion. 

5 Could you repeat it? 

6 MR. BERMAN: From which part? 

7 About summary judgment? This has already been 

addressed by the previous Judge. We 

9 responded. I don't know what other 

10 information Mr. Winton has. 

11 I would note that there are a lot 

12 of facts in this case that are not in dispute 

13 and that we' d be willing enter into 

14 stipulations. And we would object to another 

15 summary judgment motion. It's already been 

16 addressed. 

17 JUDGE SULLIVAN: Okay. There was 

18 a suggestion by opposing counsel that this 

19 case could last two full days and potentially 

2 0 go into a third day given the six witnesses 

21 that have currently been identified and the 

22 potential for vigorous cross-examination. Do 

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1 you take any position about that? 

2 MR. BERMAN: I don't think i t 

3 should take more than two days. One day if, 

4 I don't know how long respondent's witnesses 

5 will take, but I don't think it should last 

6 more than two days. 

7 JUDGE SULLIVAN: Okay. Why don't 

8 we do this. My trial schedule has been 

9 getting booked up. And so it might be helpful 

10 if we look at all of our calendars. 

11 Find a date for trial that works 

12 for all of us, and then backtrack a little bit 

13 to setting up some dates for exchange of final 

14 discovery, including any and all supplemental 

15 materials that Mr. Berman was talking about. 

16 I'm sorry. Mr. Winton was talking about. 

17 And then also talk about a time 

18 period for filing some short pretrial briefs 

19 with legal authority regarding the disputed 

20 factual and legal issues, as well as other 

21 matters that might help streamline trial. 

22 In terms of the suggestion for a 

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1 new Motion for Summary Judgment, I'll 

2 respectfully decline to set a new dispositive 

3 motion in that regard. 

4 The parties spent, I think, a good 

5 deal of time and money already in filing the 

6 motions that were addressed by Judge Goodwin. 

7 And I think at this point, we're beyond a 

8 summary judgment motion that would be, 

9 essentially, a renewal of what has already 

10 been decided by my colleague. 

11 Solet'stal k about calendar 

12 dates. I'm going to tell you about when I 

13 have time open. And according to my notes, it 

14 looks like this is in New York City. Is that 

15 correct? 

16 MR. BERMAN: You know what, Your 

17 Honor? We have recently been holding hearings 

18 at the Islip, New York Long Island Courthouse, 

19 which is most convenient to the parties. And 

20 it's a much nicer courthouse. It's a Federal 

21 District Court, which is underused. It's got 

22 a beautiful view of the ocean. Not that that 

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1 helps. 

2 But Judge Benkin, before he 

3 retired, held a couple of hearings there with 

4 me. And it's easy access to the Long Island 

5 MacArthur Airport, which is cheaper to the 

6 Board. The hotels are cheaper to stay at in 

7 Long Island, and again, in a beautiful 

8 facility, other than New York City. 

9 JUDGE SULLIVAN: And then can you, 

10 and, I'm sorry. Was that Mr. Winton? 

11 MR. WINTON: It was. I'm sorry, 

12 Your Honor. 

13 JUDGE SULLIVAN: Mr. Winton, can 

14 you spell Islip for me? 

15 MR. WINTON: Sure. I-S-L-I-P. 

16 JUDGE SULLIVAN: Okay. So it's 

17 the Islip Long Island Federal District 

18 Courthouse? 

19 MR. WINTON: Correct. It's I 

20 think the Eastern District of New York Annex. 

21 Because there's an Eastern District of New 

22 York in Brooklyn, and this is the Eastern 

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1 District Court in Islip, New York. 

2 JUDGE SULLIVAN: Okay. And just 

3 so that I 'm clear. There' s a Long Island 

4 Airport? 

5 MR. WINTON: Correct. It's also 

6 by the name of Islip. And its three letter 

7 identifier is ISP. 

JUDGE SULLIVAN: Okay. Thank you. 

9 Mr. Berman, do you have any objection to 

10 starting there with a potential trial 

11 location? 

12 MR. BERMAN: No objection to that. 

13 JUDGE SULLIVAN: I'm sorry, what? 

14 MR. BERMAN: I have no objection 

15 to that essentially, Islip. 

16 JUDGE SULLIVAN: Okay. Well then, 

17 absent problems getting a court in that 

18 facility, we'11 plan on that as our default 

19 place for the hearing itself. 

2 0 Let me just take a look at my 

21 calendar. Okay, I'm looking at February at 

22 this point, which may not be too far away if 

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1 we're talking about doing some stipulations 

2 and pretrial briefs. 

3 Starting with you Mr. Berman, do 

4 you have time available in February for 

5 potentially a two-day trial? 

MR. BERMAN: Yes. 

JUDGE SULLIVAN: Okay. Do you 

have any particular blackout dates or weeks in 

9 February that we need to consider? 

10 MR. BERMAN: Let me check. Let me 

11 just take a quick look. 

12 JUDGE SULLIVAN: Okay. 

13 MR. BERMAN: No. No. The only 

14 thing is I observe the Jewish Sabbath, so 

15 Friday would be problematic. Fridays would 

16 be. 

17 JUDGE SULLIVAN: So, you're 

18 talking about having a Tuesday, Wednesday or 

19 potentially Thursday type trial? 

2 0 MR. BERMAN: Right. Right. That 

21 would work out best for me. 

2 2 JUDGE SULLIVAN: Okay. Turning to 

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1 you, Mr. Winton. What about February? Does 

2 February work for you? 

3 MR. WINTON: February would work 

4 for the trial. Judge. My concern is it may be 

5 a little aggressive in timing. I've got three 

6 appeals that I'm working on that need to get 

7 out in January which will keep me pretty busy 

8 as far as trial prep. Is there any way we 

9 could push it to March? 

10 JUDGE SULLIVAN: Of course. Of 

11 course. Let me see what I have. I'm looking 

12 at, and I need to go and look at my April 

13 calendar really quickly. 

14 Folks I have either the last week 

15 of March, March 26th through the 30th or I 

16 have the following week which is April 2nd 

17 through the 6th. So, Mr. Winton, I'll start 

18 with you. Do either of those weeks work for 

19 you? 

20 MR. WINTON: Yes, the week of the 

21 26th of March would work better for me. April 

2 2 begins the spring break, and I still have 

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1 teenage children. 

2 JUDGE SULLIVAN: Okay. Mr. 

3 Berman, would that week work for you? 

MR. BERMAN: Yes. 

JUDGE SULLIVAN: Well, then let's 

6 plan on the week of March 26th for trial, and 

7 that would be, why don't we plan on Monday as 

a travel day for those of us who are coming 

9 from a little farther. And then let' s say 

10 March 2 7th and March 2 8 th as the actual 

11 hearing times, with Thursday, March 2 9th as 

12 another travel day. 

13 And counsel, I can always reserve 

14 part of the 29th if you think it's necessary. 

15 I'd rather reserve more time now than too 

16 little time. So turning to you first, Mr. 

17 Berman, any last thoughts about that? 

18 MR. BERMAN: About the scheduling 

19 of the hearing? 

2 0 JUDGE SULLIVAN: About whether we 

21 should reserve any more time than two days. 

22 MR. BERMAN: I guess we should 

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just in case. 

JUDGE SULLIVAN: And Mr. Winton, 

3 what about you? 

4 MR. WINTON: That's fine. Yes, we 

5 may go into the morning of the 29th. I highly 

6 doubt it, but you might as well be safe. 

7 JUDGE SULLIVAN: Okay. Let's plan 

on three days then, and then what I can do is 

9 I can end a little early. 

10 Mr. Berman, where are you located? 

11 MR. BERMAN: Near JFK Airport. 

12 JUDGE SULLIVAN: Okay. So if we 

13 went until say 4:30 on Thursday the 29th, that 

14 would still be okay for you? You'd be able to 

15 get home that day? 

16 MR. BERMAN: Yes. 

17 JUDGE SULLIVAN: Okay. Okay. All 

18 right. All right. So, we'11 have Tuesday, 

19 Wednesday and Thursday, March 27th, March 28th 

20 and March 29th of the year 2012 reserved for 

21 our hearing times. With March 26, 2012 and 

22 for some of us, March 30, 2012 as a travel day 

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1 for those of us flying in or driving in from 

2 out of town. 

3 That puts us with pretrial briefs 

4 first as we go back in time. Typically, I 

5 like to have a pretrial brief about ten 

6 working days before the actual trial. So that 

7 would be about March 20th at the very latest. 

I could push that up a little earlier if the 

9 parties want. It would be a mutual exchange. 

10 Starting with you, Mr. Berman. Do 

11 you have a preference? 

12 MR. BERMAN: That sounds fine. I 

13 mean to have it ten days before. 

14 JUDGE SULLIVAN: And Mr. Winton, 

15 is that acceptable? 

16 MR. WINTON: That's acceptable. 

17 So was it the 20th Judge or the 16th? 

18 JUDGE SULLIVAN: Well, let's plan 

19 on the 20th. 

20 MR. WINTON: Okay, March 20. 

21 JUDGE SULLIVAN: For the pretrial 

22 briefs, that's ten days prior to - - oh, I'm 

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1 sorry. I'm looking at the last day instead of 

2 

3 MR. WINTON: Right. It would be 

4 the 16th. 

5 JUDGE SULLIVAN: Yes, thank you. 

6 It would be March 16th for the exchange of the 

7 pretrial briefs, which is a Friday. 

8 And then let's talk about exchange 

9 of any and all supplemental discovery, as well 

10 as the exchange of witness lists and exhibits. 

11 And then I also want to chat with you a little 

12 bit about stipulations. 

13 Starting with you, Mr. Berman. 

14 Can you give me what your ideal time frame 

15 would be for those three things? And I'll 

16 repeat them. An exchange of written or, you 

17 know, essentially a filing of written 

18 stipulations after you've had a chance to talk 

19 privately with opposing counsel. 

20 The exchange of witness lists and 

21 exhibits, and then of course, the exchange of 

22 any final discovery. 

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MR. BERMAN: What do you want, one 

date for all three of these, or? 

JUDGE SULLIVAN: No. I think 

4 you'd need to have several days since they're 

5 different things. So for example, you'd 

6 probably want to exchange all of your 

7 discovery before you exchange your witness 

8 lists and your exhibits. 

9 And tucked in there somewhere 

10 would be a time to talk about all the 

11 stipulations that you would need or would like 

12 to have to narrow the issues. Narrow the 

13 scope of the inquiry once you get witnesses on 

14 the stand. Narrow the types of exhibits that 

15 you would need to file. 

16 MR. BERMAN: The exchange of 

17 discovery two months from today. Enough time 

18 for discovery and responses, stipulations. 

19 The third item was? 

2 0 JUDGE SULLIV7VN: Your exchange of 

21 witness lists and exhibits. 

22 MR. BERMAN: Exchange of witness 

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1 lists and exhibits. I guess within 60 days 

2 of, well, time after the discovery is 

3 completed. So maybe 15 days after discovery 

4 is completed. And then stipulations, 15 days 

5 after that. I'm not sure exactly how it works 

6 out with the. 

7 JUDGE SULLIVAN: Thank you. Mr. 

8 Winton, any comments? Any thoughts about 

9 what would work for your client? 

10 MR. WINTON: Yes, that's fine. 

11 That would work. 

12 JUDGE SULLIVAN: Well, let's do 

13 this. Today is November 21st. And I'm 

14 thinking about all of the different holidays 

15 that come in between now and then. I'm going 

16 to backtrack on my calendar a little bit and 

17 then suggest some times for you both. 

18 MR. WINTON: Okay. 

19 JUDGE SULLIVAN: And Mr. Winton 

20 again. You said that you had some appellate 

21 issues that go into the end of January. Is 

22 that correct? 

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1 MR. WINTON: That's correct. But 

2 these types of things, discovery, witness, 

3 exhibit lists and stipulations don't take a 

4 lot of time, so I' m not too concerned about my 

5 schedule for those issues. 

6 JUDGE SULLIVAN: Okay. Let me 

7 suggest this to you both, and then I'11 ask 

you, Mr. Berman, and then you, Mr. Winton, if 

9 you have any objections to this proposed 

10 schedule. 

11 Number one. For the exchange of 

12 any and all final discovery, including any 

13 supplemental discovery, no later than January 

14 31, 2012. Although, I would encourage you to 

15 start exchanging it right now. 

16 Number two. For the exchange of 

17 witness lists and exhibits that the parties 

18 intend to utilize, oh, I'm sorry. For the 

19 stipulation on all matters, February 15. And 

2 0 then for the exchange of final witness lists 

21 and all exhibits, March 2, 2011. 

22 MR. BERMAN: 2012. 

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1 JUDGE SULLIVAN: I'm sorry. 2012. 

2 Thank you so very much. 

3 MR. BERMAN: No problem. 

4 JUDGE SULLIVAN: Mr. Berman, would 

5 that work for you? Would that be a 

6 comfortable schedule for you? 

7 MR. BERMAN: Yes. 

JUDGE SULLIVAN: And Mr. Winton? 

9 MR. WINTON: Yes, that' s f ine, 

10 Judge. 

11 JUDGE SULLIVAN: Okay. Starting 

12 with you Mr. Berman. Is there anything else 

13 that this Court can assist you with in terms 

14 of case management or the narrowing of issues 

15 that would help reduce the costs of trial for 

16 you and your client? 

17 MR. BERMAN: No. 

18 JUDGE SULLIVAN: And Mr. Winton, 

19 on behalf of your client, same question. 

2 0 MR. WINTON: Other than a renewed 

21 motion for summary judgment . But I think 

22 we've already addressed that. 

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1 JUDGE SULLIVAN: Yes. I'm very 

2 careful, and I'm a big fan of summary judgment 

3 motions. Just so that you know. But I don't 

4 want to tread on my colleague's toes. 

5 MR. WINTON: Yes, I noticed that 

6 the decision was basically denied without, you 

7 know, much of a written explanation. And, I 

8 mean, because Mr. Berman agrees that most of 

9 the facts are stipulated, it seems to me it's 

10 a legal question here. And then, almost ripe 

11 for summary judgment. But again, I don't want 

12 to go against the grain there. 

13 JUDGE SULLIVAN: Yes. And I would 

14 say to you that, again, I'm a big fan of 

15 summary judgment motions no matter who brings 

16 them to me. 

17 I certainly exercise all of the 

18 tools available to the Court under CR 56, 

19 which would allow me to grant either the 

20 motion that's been raised or even cross21 motions. Or even on an independent level, 

22 find on behalf of the party who has presented 

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1 the most persuasive facts. 

2 But in this particular case, 

you're right. The motion was denied. It was 

4 globally denied. And I don't see a way for me 

5 to entertain a renewed motion without stepping 

6 on my colleague's toes. And I don't want to 

7 do that. 

8 MR. WINTON: And I can appreciate 

9 and understand that. I mean, what about, and 

10 I've done this in other cases, a motion for 

11 partial summary judgment to limit the issues 

12 at the hearing. 

13 JUDGE SULLIVAN: Well, your 

14 original motion was for a partial summary 

15 j udgment. 

16 MR. WINTON: Oh, was it? 

17 JUDGE SULLIVAN: On Count 3. 

MR. WINTON: Okay. 

19 JUDGE SULLIVAN: So. 

2 0 MR. BERMAN: The agency has not 

21 filed a summary judgment, but we would not be 

22 precluded from doing so, would i^^e? 

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1 JUDGE SULLIVAN: If you have not 

2 filed a motion for summary judgment, you would 

3 not be precluded from doing so. And, of 

4 course, if you choose to do that, I' d be happy 

5 to have you folks do that. And I generally 

6 1 ike to have summary j udgment mot ions 

7 accompanied by oral argument because they are 

dispositive. 

9 I should say I always have 

10 ques t ions when I see a summary j udgment 

11 motion. And I'd like to have them answered 

12 before I issue any ruling on dispositive 

13 motions. 

14 MR. WINTON: Well, that's 

15 refreshing. Judge. I've been trying to get 

16 that for years now. 

17 JUDGE SULLIVAN: Well, you'll get 

18 it all the time from me. 

19 MR. WINTON: Wonderful. 

20 Wonderful. 

21 JUDGE SULLIVAN: So if the two of 

22 you in your private discussions decide that 

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1 you would like to do a dispositive motion 

2 again that's not, how do I want to say this, 

3 identical to the one that's already been 

4 decided by Judge Goodwin. 

5 I would certainly be happy to 

6 entertain that and to assist the two of you in 

7 setting up an oral argument with due dates for 

8 both the motion, the answer and a reply. 

9 I know that in the general 

10 practice before the office it might have not 

11 been typical, but I certainly am happy to 

12 allow them. And I'm used to seeing replies in 

13 work that I've done elsewhere. 

14 MR. WINTON: Judge, if I may. 

15 This is Greg Winton. I think at this point, 

16 because we've just got the schedule and it's 

17 already been ruled upon by your office that 

18 there are material issues of fact in dispute, 

19 albeit it may be very limited. 

20 I think another motion for summary 

21 judgment even on behalf of the complainant at 

22 this time would be a tremendous waste of 

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judicial resources, in addition to waste of 

2 money from each of the clients involved. 

3 JUDGE SULLIVAN: Wei1, it is 

4 costly, and so , but I'm just leaving that open 

5 for your private discussions if you would like 

6 to jointly move for that kind of relief. 

7 In the event that that's water 

under the bridge, I'm happy to assist in other 

9 ways, if you can think of something else 

10 between now and the trial. 

11 MR. WINTON: Okay. 

12 JUDGE SULLIVAN: For your purposes 

13 counsel, I will be sending out an order 

14 basically quantifying in writing all of the 

15 different dates that we've just discussed. 

16 And hopefully I'll have that out by tomorrow 

17 before everybody goes and starts celebrating 

18 a Thanksgiving holiday. 

19 MR. WINTON: Wonderful. 

2 0 JUDGE SULLIVAN: Okay. On behalf 

21 of the FAA Mr. Berman, is there anything else 

that we can address fo r you and your client 

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1 today? 

2 MR. BERMAN: One thing I'd like to 

3 clarify. Mr. Winton said that the Empire 

4 Airways case that we originally brought was 

5 dismissed by the administrative law judge. We 

6 actually went through that action which 

7 resulted in the dismissal of the case. 

8 MR. WINTON: I'm sorry, Zach. I 

9 did misspeak. I've got so many cases. You're 

10 correct. That's the way in which it happened. 

11 JUDGE SULLIVAN: Okay. Thank you 

12 very much. Mr. Winton, anything that you 

13 would like to address before we go off the 

14 record? 

15 MR. WINTON: No, Your Honor. 

16 Thank you very much for your time this 

17 morning. 

18 JUDGE SULLIVAN: Okay. Thank you 

19 both very much for your time. I look forward 

20 to seeing you in March 2012 if the case is not 

21 settled. If you need any further assistance, 

22 don't hesitate to call my legal assistant. 

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1 She' d be happy to set you up with a phone 

2 conference with me. 

3 MR. WINTON: Wonderful. 

4 JUDGE SULLIVAN: We can go off the 

5 record, and I wish you all a happy holiday. 

6 MR. WINTON: Thank you, too, 

7 Judge. Bye, bye. 

Whereupon, the teleconference in 

9 the above-entitled matter was concluded at 

10 11:13a.m. 

11 

12 

13 

14 

15 

16 

17 

19 

20 

21 

22 

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day 6:21 10:2 22:20 

23:3 29:8,12 

30:15.22 32:1 

davs9:22 10:7 

22:19 23:3,6 

29:21 30:831:6 

31:13,22 33:4 

34:1,3.4 

deal 24:5 

decide 39:22 

decided 12:19 

24:10 40:4 

decision 10:4,5,0 

37:0 

decline 24:2 

default 26:18 

defense 18:4 

definition 11:11 

denied 37:6 38:3,4 

DEPARTMENT 

1:1 

depositions 6:1 

determine 17:19 

Diamond 12:5 

different 14:6 33:5 

34:1441:15 

discovery 4:14.17 

4:20 5:"l5 6:7,10 

7:198:14,22 

20:22 23:14 32:9 

32:22 33:7,17,18 

34:2.3 35:2.12,13 

discuss 4:1 1 

discussed 41:15 

discussions 39:22 

41:5 

dismissal 42:7 

dismissed 12:22 

13:1342:5 

dispositive 24:2 

39:8,12 40:1 

dispute 8:4 1 1:2 

21:1922:1240:1 

disputed 23:19 

District 24:21 

25:17,20.21 26:1 

docket 3:5 4:4 

doing 14:14 15:9 

16:16,1727:1 

38:22 39:3 

doubt 30:6 

drafted 18:2 

driving 31:1 

due40:7 

earlier 31:8 

early 30:9 

Eastern 2:7 25:20 

25:21.22 

easy 25:4 

either 20:5 28:14 

28:18 37:19 

Empire 1:11 2:15 

3:4,11 7:3 10:11 

12:17.18,20 13:4 

13:13,18 14:5,12 

14:15,22 15:1,3 

16:16,21 17:8,10 

19:3 20:6 42:3 

employee 18:1 1 

encourage 35:14 

engaged 5:18 

enter 8:3 21:21 

22:13 

entered 8:8 12:7 

entertain 20:7 38:5 

40:0 

entire 4:9 0:15 

entity 11:10 12:1 

Eric 20:22 

ESQ2:4,17 

essentiallv 16:9 

18:4 24:9 26:15 

32:17 

event 41:7 

eventually 15:3 

everybody 3; 15 

21.'21 41:17 

exactly 34:5 

example 33:5 

exchange 5:12 9:6 

9:723:13 31:9 

32:6,8,10,16.20 

32:21 33:0,7.16 

33:20.22 35:11,16 

35:20 

exchangcd5:14 

9:12 

exchanging 35:15 

exercise 37:17 

exhibit 35:3 

exhibits9:8 32:10 

32:21 33:8.14.21 

34:1 35:17,21 

expect 9:21 

expert 10:19 

explanation 37:7 

FAA 1:7 3:5 9:18 

11:5 12:19 13:2,3 

18:5,2041:21 

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1:9 

facility 25:8 26:18 

fact 11:940:18 

facts 21:19 22:12 

37:9 38:1 

factual 11:1 23:20 

fan 37:2,14 

far21:22 26:22 

28:8 

farther 29:9 

favor 22:2 

FDMS 1:9 

February 26:21 

27:4,9 28:1,2,3 

35:19 

Federal 1:7 2:3 3:9 

Pag e 4 5 

17:10 18:1524:20 

25:17 

fees 13:1,14 

rde 4:9 8:6,7 11:4 

33:15 

filed4:5 13:12 

38:21 39:2 

filing23:18 24:5 

32:17 

final 23:13 32:22 

35:12,20 

find 23:11 37:22 

fine 30:4 31:12 

34:10 36:9 

finished 5:1,3,8 6:1 

7:19 

Firm 2:19 

first4:14 12:20 

13:1229:1631:4 

ficet 12:12 

new 6:22 

night 1:11 2:15 3:4 

3:11 7:3 10:18 

12:3,17,22 13:18 

14:5,12,15,22 

15:1.4,9 16:21 

Flightways 10:11 

flying 31:1 

folks 28:14 39:5 

following 28:16 

former 14:3 

forward 42:19 

frame 32:14 

Friday 27:15 32:7 

Fridays 27:15 

full 22:19 

further 42:21 

GCA 10:15 11:22 

12:1 

general 10:9 40:9 

generally 39:5 

getting23:9 26:17 

give 19:16 32:14 

given 14:17 22:20 

Glass 10:14 11:22 

Nea l R. Gross Sc Co. , Inc . 

202-234-443 3 
12:8,9,14 14:2.11 

14:17,19 15:4.7 

15:15 16:4.14.17 

16:22 17:11 18:7 

20:1,5 

globally 38:4 

go 13:7",21 17:16 

19:521:1722:20 

28:12 30:5 31:4 

34:21 37:1242:13 

43:4 

goes 41:17 

going4:13 8:7 13:8 

14:9 15:4 18:5 

22:3 24:12 34:15 

good 24:4 

Goodwin 24:6 40:4 

Goodwin's 4:4 

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grant 37:19 

granted 13:1 

Greg 40:15 

Gregory 2:1 7 3:13 

guess 8:18 29:22 

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hand 21:5 

hangar 14:6 

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happy 39:4 40:5.1 1 

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21:18 26:19 29:11 

29:19 30:21 38:12 

hearings 1:2 0:20 

24:17 25:3 

held 25:3 

help 23:21 30:15 

helpful 23:9 

helping 14:13 

helps25:l 

hesitate 42:22 

highly 30:5 

history 1 1:4 

holding 24:17 

holds 11:16 

holiday 41:18 43:5 

holidays 34:14 

home 30:15 

Honor 7:21 8:18 

11:424:1725:12 

42:15 

HONORABLE 

1:20 

hoped 6:5 7:20 

hopefully 4:6 41:16 

hotels 25:6 

1 

idea 15:3 

ideal 32:14 

identical 40:3 

identified 9:19 

22:21 

identifier 26:7 

identities 9:11 

identity S: 19 i t:5 

20:16 

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improperly 17:5 

incident 14:4.19 

inclined 10:4 

including23:14 

35:12 

independent 16:10 

17:7.13,18 18:0 

18:10 19:0,9 

37:21 

indicated 16:3 

individual 18:18 

influence 16:8 

information 19:22 

20:1921:1522:10 

initially 11:5 

inquiry 33:13 

inspector 6:22 7.1 I 

20:17 

instance 20:1 

instruction 12:3.22 

insurance 11:19 

12:10 14:20 

intend 8:9.9 35:18 

internal 14:14 

interrogatories 6:6 

8:15 

investigation 17:18 

invoices 15:2 

involved 11:20 

12:541:2 

Island 24:18 25:4,7 

25:17 26:3 

Islip24:1825:14 

25:17 26:1,6.15 

ISP 26:7 

issue 39:12 

issued 11:19,21 

issuesS:22 11:1,1 

21:1623:20 33:12 

34:21 35:5 30:14 

38:11 40:18 

item 33:19 

i-S-L-l-P25:]5 

Jamaica 2:9 

January 28:7 34:21 

35:13' 

Jewish 27:14 

JFK 30:11 

joining3:14 

jointly 41:6 

judge 1:22 3:3,19 

3:21 4:2,4,8.21 

5:3,7.11.17,22 0:4 

6:127:4,8.13,18 

7:22 8:11 9:1,5,14 

10:8,21 13:6,8.11 

13:16,21 15:12 

16:7 18:3 19:12 

20:9,10.14,15 

21:7,1022:3.8,17 

23:7 24:6 25:2,9 

25:]3,]626:2,S 

26:13,1627:7,12 

27:17,22 28:4,10 

29:2,5.20 30:2,7 

30:12,1731:14.17 

31:18,21 32:5 

33:3.20 34:7,12 

34:19 35:6 30:1.4 

30:8,10,11,18 

37:1.1338:13,17 

38:19 39:1,15.17 

39:21 40:4.14 

41:3,12,20 42:5 

42:11,1843:4,7 

judgment 15:13,14 

19:20 20:821:13 

21:22 22:2.7,15 

24:1.8 36:2! 37:2 

37:11.1538:11.15 

38:21 39:2,0.10 

40:21 

judicial 41:1 

June 10:1 

J.E1:20 

K 

keep 28:7 

kind 5:18 8:10 41:0 

kinds 5; 13-6:7 8:2 

know 10:12 15:10 

17:2 20:021:8,15 

22:9 23:4 24:16 

32:17 37:3,7 40:9 

knowledge 9:12 

latest 31:7 

law 1:22 2:19 20:4 

42:5 

layperson 20: IS 

lease 10:17 11:16 

12:8,9 

leased 7:3 

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14:21 16:1521:3 

Ieaving41:4 

legal 11:1.11 19:14 

23:19,20 37:10 

42:22 

letter 26-.6 

let's 20:16 24:1 1 

29:5,9 30:7 31:18 

32:8 34:12 

level 37:21 

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license 1 8:20 

limit 8:3 38:1 1 

limited 40:19 

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list 9:2,7 

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32:20 33:8,21 

34:1 35:3,17.20 

litigation 1:3 3:7 

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29:9,10 30:9 31:8 

32:11 34:16 

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location 14:3,3 

26:11 

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24:1825:4,7.17 

26:3 

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16:20 17:3 18:12 

18:14 19:5 

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management 36:14 

managing 14; 10 

March 28:9,15,15 

28:21 29:6,10,10 

29:11 30:19,19.20 

30:21.22 31:7,20 

32:6 35:21 42:20 

Neal R. Gross-& Co. 

202-234-4433 

Inc . 
Maryland 2:21 

material 16:3 

40:18 

materials 16:3 

23:15 

matter 1:6.17 3:4 

4:3 37:15 43:9 

matters 23:21 

35:19 

ma'am 4:1 

mean 31:13 37:8 

38:9 

Meaning 17:14 

mechanic 10:20 

17:0.7,9.13.17 

18:6,17,22 19:7.9 

19:11 

mechanics 17:22 

Misiano 21:1 

misspeak 42:9 

moment 9:2 

Monday 1:14 3:6 

29:7 " 

money 24:5 41:2 

nionths33:l7 

morning3:15 9:20 

30:5 42:17 

motion 15:13,14 

19:1920:721:12 

22:1524:1,3,8 

36:21 37:20 38:3 

38:5.10.14 39:2 

39:11 40:1,8.20 

motions 24:6 37:3 

37:15,21 39:6.13 

move 41:6 

moved 12:15 14:2 

mutual 3 1:9 

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name 11:22 21:4,4 

26:6 

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33:14 

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necessary 4:18 6:5 

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10:1 27:9 28:6.12 

33:4.11.15 42:21 

needs 18:21 

never 15:5 

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20:221:1524:1.2 

24:14,18 25:8,20 

25:21 26:1 

nicer 24:20 

note 22:11 

notes 24:13 

notice 1:18 

noticed 37:5 

November 1:15 3:6 

34:13 

number 11:8 18:19 

18:20,21 19:11 

35:11.16 

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object 22:14 

objection 26:9,12 

26:14 

objections 35:9 

observe 27:14 

obtain 8:12 

obtained 12:9 

occur 11:9 

occurred 1 1:7 

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ocean 24:22 

office 1:2 2:5 40:10 

40:17 

oh 3 1:22 35:IS 

38:16 

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5:22 0:12 7:13,22 

8:11 9:1,14 10:8 

13:21.22 16:7 

21:7,1022:17 

23:7 25:16 26:2,8 

20:10,21 27:7.12 

27:22 29:2 30:7 

30:12,14,17.17 

31:20 34:18 35:0 

30:11 38:1841:11 

41:20 42:11.18 

once 33:13 

ones 7:16 

one's 17:22 

open 15:8 24:13 

41:4 

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11:17 14:21 

operated 14:1 

operating 14:1 1 

15:15 

operation 11:20 

15:19 

operator 1 1:10.12 

12:21 16:5 

opinion 9:15 

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opposing 22:18 

32:19 

oral 39:7 40:7 

order4:5 41:13 

original 20:22 

38:14 

originally 6:2 

13:11 42:4 

outstanding 8:22 

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owned 7:2 

owner 12:7 14:9,12 

17:1,11 21:2 

ownership 10:1 7 

owner/operator 

11:15 17:16.21 

paperwork 14:14 

21:5 

part 12:8,15,16 

14:6 18:3 19:13 

21:11 22:0 29:14 

partial 38:1 1.14 

particular 12:20 

19:1027:8 38:2 

parties 3:6 8:2 24:4 

24:19 31:9 35:17 

party 11:6 37:22 

payroll's 17:8 

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performed 16:21 

18:22 19:5 

period 15:21 10:1 

23:18 

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18:11 

perspective 4:15 

5:15 0:13 10:22 

persuasive 38:1 

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11:1420:1721:1 

place 20:19 

plan 26:18 29:0,7 

30:731:18 

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10:9 19:13 

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10:13 11:2 12:14 

20:12 24:7 26:22 

40:15 

policy 11:19 12:10 

14:20 

portion 22:4 

position 19:15 23:1 

possibly 10:19 20:4 

potential 22:22 

26:10 

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22:19 27:5,19 

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19:1! 

practice 40:10 

precluded 38:22 

39:3 

preference 31:11 

prep 28:8 

present 14:3 

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presuming 3:21 

pretrial 19:13.17 

23:1827:231:3,5 

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31:21 32:7 

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31:22 

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privately 5:19 

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probably 9; I 1,21 

10:621:1833:0 

problem 18:5 30:3 

problematic 15:22 

27:15 

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20:19 

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purpose 5:19 12:2 

purposes41:12 

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receive 6:6 

received 4:0 6:4,11 

record 3:4,11,13 

8:21 10:542:14 

43:5 

Nea l R. Gross & Co. 

202-234-443 3 

I n c . 
reduce 36:15 

referred 4:3 

refreshing 39:15 

regard 11:9 19:4 

24:3 

regarding 23:19 

Region 2:7 

Regional 2:5 

Regulations 17:10 

18:1,16 

relief 41:6 

rely 17:12 

render 10:5 

rendering 10:4 

renew 19:19 

renewal 24:9 

renewed 21:12 

36:20 38:5 

repair 19:3,4 

repeat 22:5 32:16 

replies 40:12 

reply 40:8 

reporter 3:22 4:1 

representative 

10:11,14 

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3:12 

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9:10 

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reserve 29:13.15.21 

reserved 30:20 

resolve 8:21 

resolved 21:12,17 

resources41:l 

respectfully 24:2 

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respondent 1:12 

2:14 6:8 22:2 

respondent's 23:4 

response 15:14 

21:13 

responses 8:1.1 

20:22 33:18 

responsible 1 1:6 

resulted 42:7 

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re-filed 13:3.17,18 

right 3: IS 16:5 

21:4,9 27:20,20 

30:18,18 32:3 

35:15 38:3 

ripe 37:10 

Rockville 2:21 

Room 2:8 

ruled 40:17 

ruling 39:12 

S 

S2:17 3:13 

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safe 30:6 

saw 8:6 

schedule23:8 35:5 

35:1036:6 40:10 

scheduling 1:3 3:7 

29: i 8 

school 10:18 15:10 

scope8:3 33:13 

search 15:6 

second 13:19 

see 15:21 28:11 

38:4 39:10 

seeing40:12 42:20 

sending41:13 

sense 18:12 

September 15:16 

15:16,19,20 

series 7:15 

served 6:8.10 

service 17:14 

set 12:2 24:2 43:1 

setting4:12 23:13 

40:7 

settled 42:21 

shared 14:6 16:9 

16:13 

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short 23:18 

side 19:14 

sign 18:21 

signal 3:16 

signature 17:12,17 

17:19 

signed 19:9 

signs 1 7:9 

similar 7:16 

sir 5:1.4,9 

situation 14:18 

six 22:20 

sole 14:20 10:4 

solely 12:2 

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32:1 35:1836:1 

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spring 28:22 

stand 33:14 

start 4:13 20:16 

28:1735:15 

starting 26:10 27:3 

31:1032:13 36:11 

starts 41:17 

state 15:7 20:2 

statement 21:3 

station 19:3.4 

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stipulation 5:20 

21:22 35:19 

stipulations 5:18 

8:2,8 22:14 27:1 

32:12,1833:11,18 

34.-4 35:3 

stop 13:8 22:3 

streamline 23:21 

subject 6:18 

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suggest 34:1 7 35:7 

suggestion 21:11 

22:18 23:22 

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3:3,19.21 4:2,8.21 

5:3,7,11,17.22 6:4 

6:12 7:4.8,13.18 

7:22 8:11 9:1,5,14 

10:8,21 13:6,8,11 

13:10,21 15:12 

16:7 18:3 19:12 

20:10,15 2I:7J 0 

22:3,17 23:7 25:9 

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26:13,1027:7.12 

27:17,22 28:10 

29:2.5,20 30:2,7 

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31:21 32:533:3 

33:20 34:7,12,19 

35:6 36:1,4,8,11 

36:/8 37:1,13 

38:13,17,1939:1 

39:17.21 41:3.12 

41:2042:11.18 

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36:13 

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testimony 7:1 

thank 3:14 20:10 

20:8 32:5 34:7 

36:2 42:11.16,18 

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21:16,20 23:2,5 | 

24:4.7 25:20 

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29:11 30:13,19 

tinie4:lS 8:7 9:15 

10:3 12:14 13:19 

14:4 15:21 23:17 

24:5.13 27:4 

Nea l R. Gross & Co. 

202-234-443 3 

I n c . 
Page 4 9 

29:15.10,21 31:4 

p -M 33-10 17 

U-? 354 3918 

40:22 42:10,19 

times 29:11 30:21 

34:17 

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34:13 42:1 

toes 37:4 38:0 

told 13:4 

tomorrow41:10 

tools6:7 37:18 

town 31:2 

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1:1 

travel 29:8,12 

30:22 

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tremendous 40:22 

trial 4:12 6:16.16 

9:8.15 23:8,11.21 

26:1027:5.19 

28:4.8 29:6 31:6 

36:1541:10 

trying 39:15 

tucked 33:9 

Tuesday 27: IS 

30:18 

turn 7:14 20:12 

turning27:22 

29:16 

two9:22 10:7 17:21 

18:1322:1923:3 

23:6 29:21 33:17 

35:16 39:21 40:0 

two-day 27:5 

type 12:321:20 

"27:19 

tvpes 18:13 33:14 

35:2 

typical 40:11 

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12:10,11 

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41:1 

water 41:7 

way 19:22 28:8 

38:442:10 

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Wednesday 27:18 

30:19 

week 28:14.10,20 

29:3.0 

weeks 27:8 28:18 

wcntO:15 10:2 12:9 

30:13 42:0 

we'll 19:16 20:9 

26:18 30:18 

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we've8:5 36:22 

40:10 41:15 

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3:17,174:7 5:13 

7:14,17,21 8:5,17 

9:4.9,18 10:10.22 

11:3 13:7,10,15 

13:20.22 16:0.12 

18:9 19:1620:13 

20:20 22:1023:16 

25:10,11,13,15,19 

26:5 28:1,3,17,20 

30:2,431:14,16 

31:20 32:3 34:8 

34:10,18,1935:1 

35:8 30:8,9,18,20 

37:5 38:8,16,18 

39:14,1940:14,15 

41:11.1942:3,8 

42:12.1543:3.6 

wish 43:5 

witness 5:12.14 

6:22 9:7 21:2 

32:10,20 33:7,21 

33:22 35:2,17,20 

witnesses 6:14.18 

8:199:1620:17 

22:20 23:4 33:13 

Wonderful 39:19 

39:20 41:19 43:3 

work 17:9,22 18:22 

19:10,1327:21 

28:2,3.18.21 29:3 

34:9,11 36:5 

40:13 

working 17:7 28:6 

31:0 

works 23:11 34:5 

wouldn't 10:1 

writing 20:19 

41:14 

written 10:6 32:16 

32:17 37:7 

wrote 21:3 

Y 

year 30:20 

years 39:16 

York 2:9 15:7,8 

20:2 24:14,18 

23:8,20,22 26:1 

Z 

Zach 42:8 

Zachary 2:4 3:10 

0 

09 16:1,2 

1 

1 2:8 15:10,16,19 

15:20 

10:30 1:18 3:2 

11:1343:10 

M434 2:9 

1534:3,4 35:19 

16th31:1732:4,6 

2 

235:21 

2nd 28:16 

20 31:20 

20th31:7.t7.19 

2008 15:16 

2009 15:17,19 

2010 15:20 

2011 1:15 3:035:21 

2012 30:20,21.22 

35:14,22 30:1 

42:20 

20850 2:21 

21 1:153:6 

21st 34:13 

26 30:21 

26th 28:15.21 29:6 

27th 29:1030:19 

28th 29:10 30:19 

29th 29:11,1430:5 

30:13,20 

294-8550 2:22 

3 

338:17 

30 30:22 

30th 28:15 

301 2:22 

3135:14 

4 

4:30 30:13 

450 2:20 

5 

553-3258 2:1 1 

5637:18 

561 2:8 

6 

6th 28:17 

60 34:1 

7 

7182:11 

Neal R. Gross Sc Co. 

202-234-4433 

Inc . 
50 

CERTIFICAT E 

This is CO certify thac the foregoing transcript 

In the matter of: Empire Flight Academy 

Before: US DOT 

Date: 11-21-11 

Place: teleconference 

was duly recorded and accurately transcribed under 

my direction; further, that said transcript is a 

true and accurate record of the proceedings. 

Court Reporter 

NEAL R. GROSS 

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLANDAVE.NW 

(302) 234-4«3 WASHINGTON, D.C 20005-3701 www nealrgross com