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Mary A. Schweinhagen, RDR, CRR (937) 512-1604

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UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT

SOUTHERN DISTRICT OF OHIO

WESTERN DIVISION

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UNITED STATES OF AMERICA,

Plaintiff,

vs.

YANJUN XU, also known as XU

YANJUN, also known as QU HUI,

also known as ZHANG HUI,

Defendant.

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CASE NO. 1:18-cr-0043

JURY TRIAL

26th of OCTOBER, 2021

9:30 A.M.

VOLUME 7

- - -

TRANSCRIPT OF PROCEEDINGS

BEFORE THE HONORABLE TIMOTHY S. BLACK,

UNITED STATES DISTRICT JUDGE

- - -

APPEARANCES:

For the Plaintiff:

Timothy S. Mangan, Esq.

Emily N. Glatfelter, Esq.

Assistant United States Attorneys

221 East Fourth Street, Suite 400

Cincinnati, Ohio 45202

and

Matthew John McKenzie, Esq.

United States Department of Justice

National Security Division

950 Pennsylvania Avenue NW

Washington, D.C. 20530

and

Jacqueline K. Prim

Special Assistant, Paralegal

United States Department of Justice

National Security Division

950 Pennsylvania Avenue NW

Washington, D.C. 20530

For the Defendant:

Ralph William Kohnen, Esq.

Jeanne Marie Cors, Esq.

Sanna-Rae Taylor, Esq.

Taft Stettinius and Hollister

425 East Walnut Street, Suite 1800

Cincinnati, Ohio 45202

and

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Mary A. Schweinhagen, RDR, CRR (937) 512-1604

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Robert K. McBride, Esq.

Amanda Johnson, Esq.

Taft Stettinius and Hollister

50 East RiverCenter Boulevard

Suite 850

Covington, Kentucky 41011

and

Florian Miedel, Esq.

Miedel & Mysliwiec, LLP

80 Broad Street, Suite 1900

New York, New York 10004

Also present: Mae Harmon, Interpreter

Robin Murphy, Interpreter

Helene Conte, French Interpreter

Yanjun Xu, Defendant

Law Clerk: Cristina V. Frankian, Esq.

Courtroom Deputy: Rebecca Santoro

Stenographer: Mary Schweinhagen, RPR, RMR, RDR, CRR

United States District Court

200 West Second Street, Room 910

Dayton, Ohio 45402

Proceedings reported by mechanical stenography,

transcript produced by computer.

*** *** *** ***

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Mary A. Schweinhagen, RDR, CRR (937) 512-1604

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INDEX OF WITNESSES

TUESDAY, OCTOBER 26, 2021

DIRECT CROSS REDIRECT RECROSS

PLAINTIFF'S WITNESSES

RIZWAN RAMAKDAWALA 5 52 56

FREDERIC HASCOET 61 69

SUN LI 75

ADAM JAMES 111

* * * * *

INDEX OF EXHIBITS

GOVERNMENT'S ADMITTED

78 15

90a 84

90b 85

91b 94

92 95

* * * * *

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Mary A. Schweinhagen, RDR, CRR (937) 512-1604

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P-R-O-C-E-E-D-I-N-G-S 9:43 A.M.

(In open court outside the presence of the jury.)

THE COURT: Good morning. We are in the open

courtroom on the record outside the presence of the jury on

the case of United States versus Xu. The government team is

here. Defense team is here. Court interpreter's here. The

defendant's own interpreter is here.

Are we ready to proceed from the government's

perspective?

MR. McKENZIE: Yes, Your Honor.

THE COURT: All right. And are we ready for the

defendant -- from the defendant's.

MS. TAYLOR: Yes, Your Honor.

THE COURT: Very well. The government may call its

next witness. Well, after we get the jury here. May we have

the jury, please.

THE COURTROOM DEPUTY: All rise for the jury.

(Jury in at 9:45 a.m.)

THE COURT: You may all be seated. Thank you.

All 15 jurors have returned to the courtroom. Good

morning. We are going to proceed with the taking of testimony

from another witness.

Who does the government call at this time?

MR. McKENZIE: Good morning, Your Honor. At this

time the government calls Rizwan Ramakdawala.

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RAMAKDAWALA - DIRECT (McKenzie)

Mary A. Schweinhagen, RDR, CRR (937) 512-1604

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THE COURT: Very well. That gentleman will

approach. We are going to put you on the witness stand here.

And if you'll give me just a moment.

Now that you are seated, would you raise your right hand

for the oath to tell the truth? The other right hand.

THE WITNESS: Sorry.

THE COURT: Do you solemnly swear or affirm that the

testimony you give today will be the truth subject to penalty

of perjury?

THE WITNESS: Yes, Your Honor.

RIZWAN RAMAKDAWALA, PLAINTIFF WITNESS, SWORN

THE COURT: Thank you.

The lawyer may proceed to begin with the questions on

behalf of the government.

DIRECT EXAMINATION

BY MR. McKENZIE:

Q. Good morning. Will you please state your full name and

spell your last name for the court reporter.

A. My full name is Rizwan Roshanali Ramakdawala. Last

name is spelled R-A-M-A-K-D-A-W-A-L-A.

MR. McKENZIE: Your Honor, just for the record, this

is Matthew McKenzie for the government.

THE COURT: Thank you, sir.

BY MR. McKENZIE:

Q. By whom are you employed?

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RAMAKDAWALA - DIRECT (McKenzie)

Mary A. Schweinhagen, RDR, CRR (937) 512-1604

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A. I'm employed by the United States Department of

Defense.

Q. Within the Department of Defense, do you have a

particular assignment?

A. Yes. I am the Manned Aircraft Division Chief at the

Defense Technology Security Administration.

Q. What is the Defense Technology Security Administration?

A. Defense Technology Security Administration, or DTSA,

analyzes export licenses to export technology or items that

are controlled under the Export Administration Regulations

or the International Traffic and Arms Regulations to foreign

entities. So if you want to sell something to a foreign

government, you need permission from the U.S. government if

it's controlled.

Q. I am going to just briefly define some of those terms.

Will you explain to the jury what an export entails?

A. So an export is the transfer of any item, technology,

software, or equipment or services to a foreign party if

that item is controlled by the U.S. government.

Q. And what types of export controls are there?

A. The ones that we primarily deal with are the Export

Administration Regulations. Those are commercial

commodities that are controlled for national security

reasons because they have the ability to be used in

conventional weapons.

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RAMAKDAWALA - DIRECT (McKenzie)

Mary A. Schweinhagen, RDR, CRR (937) 512-1604

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The other is the International Traffic and Arms

Regulations. These are actual munitions items or weapons

that are actually exported from the U.S. government or U.S.

contractor to a foreign entity.

THE COURT: If you will give me just a moment.

Is the interpreter able to keep up?

THE INTERPRETER: Mr. Xu was talking with his --

THE COURT: Does the witness need to slow down?

THE INTERPRETER: Thank you.

THE COURT: Yes?

THE INTERPRETER: Yes. Thank you, Your Honor.

THE COURT: We have got an interpreter going.

Sentence by sentence.

Go ahead, counsel. Sorry to interrupt.

BY MR. McKENZIE:

Q. What is DTSA's role in reviewing exports and license

applications?

A. So DTSA is not a regulatory agency. We are a

recommending agency. The U.S. Department of Commerce is the

regulatory agency for the Export Administration Regulations.

And the U.S. Department of State is the regulatory agency

for the International Traffic and Arms Regulations.

We at DTSA provide the DOD recommendation to the U.S.

Department of Commerce or the U.S. Department of State.

Q. Remind the jury what your title is currently.

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RAMAKDAWALA - DIRECT (McKenzie)

Mary A. Schweinhagen, RDR, CRR (937) 512-1604

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A. I'm currently titled as the Manned Aircraft Division

Chief.

Q. Please explain what your duties and responsibilities are

in that role.

A. So I am responsible for a team of engineers and

analysts who review license applications and requests

related to any manned aircraft commodities, so both

commercial aircraft and military aircraft.

Q. Prior to being the Manned Aircraft Division Chief, what

was your title at DTSA?

A. Prior to that I was the Air, Land, and Sea Division

Chief.

Q. And what were some your duties and responsibilities in

that role?

A. So that was prior to a reorganization at that time.

All I had were just the engineers, so I was the division

chief of engineers that reviewed license requests for all

aircraft, all surface and submersible vessels, as well as

all ground vehicles.

Q. And what about prior to being the Air, Land, and Sea

Division Chief? Did you have another position?

A. Yes. I was a senior aerospace engineer at DTSA.

Q. And what were your duties and responsible as a senior

aerospace engineer?

A. So my specific areas of expertise were gas turbine

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RAMAKDAWALA - DIRECT (McKenzie)

Mary A. Schweinhagen, RDR, CRR (937) 512-1604

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engines -- or jet engines as it as commonly known --

composite technology, as well as helicopters.

Q. Before we come back to those types of engines, I'd like

to talk to you about your educational career or educational

history.

Did you earn a bachelor's degree?

A. Yes. I got my bachelor's degree in science for

aerospace engineering at the University of Maryland, College

Park.

Q. What is aerospace engineering?

A. So aerospace engineering is a general field that deals

with all manners of aerospace, both in the air and space

equities.

Q. In what year did you graduate?

A. 1994.

Q. After earning your bachelor's degree, did you go on to

seek a master's degree?

A. Yes. I got a master's degree in aeronautical

engineering from the Naval Postgraduate School.

Q. What is aeronautical engineering?

A. So aeronautical specializes only in the aircraft field.

Q. Within aeronautical engineering, did you have a

particular specialty?

A. Yeah. I specialized in gas turbine engines,

specifically compressor design.

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RAMAKDAWALA - DIRECT (McKenzie)

Mary A. Schweinhagen, RDR, CRR (937) 512-1604

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Q. In order to obtain your master's degree, did you have to

write a thesis?

A. Yes. I wrote a thesis called "The Preliminary Design

Code For Axial Stage Compressors."

Q. Is that part of a gas turbine engine?

A. Yes, that is the front end of a gas turbine engine.

Q. After graduating from undergraduate, did you become

employed?

A. Yes. I got a job as a project engineer for T-58 and

T-64 engines at the Naval Air Systems Command.

Q. First off, what is the Naval Air Systems Command?

A. So Naval Air Systems Command is the acquisition

community that is responsible for the sustainment of all

naval aircraft. So F-14s, F-18s, all their helicopters, et

cetera.

Q. Now as a project engineer, were you enlisted or a

civilian?

A. I was a civilian.

Q. Will you please explain to the jury what some of your

duties and responsibilities were as a project engineer?

A. So I was responsible for what they call configuration

management, so making sure that all the parts were ensured

that they were meeting the quality standards, making sure

that all the manuals were up to date, making sure that we

made all the design changes for those engines.

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RAMAKDAWALA - DIRECT (McKenzie)

Mary A. Schweinhagen, RDR, CRR (937) 512-1604

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Q. And the engines that you just referenced, were they gas

turbine engines?

A. Yes, they were all -- both the T-58 and T-64.

Q. And who manufactured those engines?

A. General Electric.

Q. Did you become familiar with the plans and designs of

these engines?

A. Yes.

Q. Directing your attention now to July of 1999, did there

come a time that you received a new job title within Naval Air

Systems Command?

A. Yes. In 1999, I became the T-58 lead engineer.

Q. And so explain to the jury your duties and

responsibilities as lead engineer.

A. So as the lead engineer, I was what they would call the

airworthiness authority on the engines. So I was

responsible for ensuring that the T-58 engine was safe for

operational use by the U.S. Navy and the U.S. Marine Corps.

Q. This particular engine, was it a gas turbine engine?

A. Yes, it was.

Q. Who manufactured it?

A. General Electric.

Q. In your role as lead engineer, did you have to interact

with General Electric?

A. Yes.

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RAMAKDAWALA - DIRECT (McKenzie)

Mary A. Schweinhagen, RDR, CRR (937) 512-1604

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Q. In general, describe that interaction.

A. So part of the job was to understand the problems with

the engine. Nothing ever works the way you had hoped it

does. So when the pilots or the maintainers would try to

fly or maintain the engine, they would obviously notice

issues. It was our job to understand those issues, work

with General Electric to design and develop fixes, and then

get those fixes into production and into the engines for the

sailors and the Marines.

THE COURT: Sir, you are doing great, but sentence

by sentence pause for the interpreter.

THE WITNESS: Yes, Your Honor.

THE COURT: Thank you.

BY MR. McKENZIE:

Q. Directing your attention now to in or about October of

2004, did there come a time that you received another job

title at Naval Air Systems Command?

A. Yes. At that time I became the H-46, H-3, and VH-3

propulsion systems engineer.

Q. In general terms, what were your duties in that role?

A. So at that time, in addition to the engines, I was

responsible for the electrical power, power generation, and

power distribution in those three helicopters.

Q. Do those three helicopters use gas turbine engines?

A. Yes, they do.

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RAMAKDAWALA - DIRECT (McKenzie)

Mary A. Schweinhagen, RDR, CRR (937) 512-1604

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Q. Were you still involved in overseeing those gas turbine

engines on the systems?

A. Yes.

Q. Directing your attention now to May of 2006, did you

receive another job at Naval Air Systems Command?

A. Yes. At that time I became the V-22 propulsion power

systems engineer.

Q. Does the V-22 use a gas turbine engine?

A. Yes. It uses the AE-1107 gas turbine engine.

Q. Now, in or about 2007, did there come a time that you

entered the Navair Leadership Development Program?

A. Yes.

Q. What is that program?

A. So that is to get leaders within the Naval Air Systems

Command to take on more responsibilities and roles and to

take on potentially supervisory and other leadership duties

within the command.

Q. Did you have to apply for that position?

A. Yes, I did.

Q. What, if any, requirements were there, in broad terms, to

complete the program?

A. So part of that was to get my Lean Six Sigma black

belt, which is about improving processes within any

particular system or capability.

Q. Did you complete the program?

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RAMAKDAWALA - DIRECT (McKenzie)

Mary A. Schweinhagen, RDR, CRR (937) 512-1604

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A. Yes, I did.

Q. During your time with the Department of Defense, have you

become familiar with an aircraft called the KC-135?

A. Yes. That is the Stratofortress. It's an air tanker.

Q. Explain to the jury what an air tanker does.

A. So an air tanker allows the fighter aircraft to be

refueled in flight. So those aircraft don't have large

tanks. So as a result, the air tanker has to come up in

front of it and refuel the aircraft so it can continue

operations.

Q. Are you also familiar with an aircraft known as the F-22?

A. Yes. The F-22 is called the Raptor. It's an

air-to-air intercepter.

Q. And which part of the United States government, if any,

uses the F-22?

A. The United States Air Force.

Q. During -- like throughout your education and your work

history, have you become familiar with how gas turbine engines

work?

A. Yes.

MR. McKENZIE: Your Honor, at this time I ask

permission to show the witness and counsel what has been

previously marked as Government's Exhibit 78 for

identification.

THE COURT: Yes?

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RAMAKDAWALA - DIRECT (McKenzie)

Mary A. Schweinhagen, RDR, CRR (937) 512-1604

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MS. TAYLOR: No objection.

BY MR. McKENZIE:

Q. Looking at the screen, what is this?

A. This is a turbofan engine.

Q. Is it a diagram of an engine?

A. Yes. It's called a cutaway.

Q. Will this cutaway help the jury understand your

testimony?

A. Yes.

MR. McKENZIE: Your Honor, at this time I ask to --

or the government moves to admit and then publish Government's

Exhibit 78.

THE COURT: Any objection?

MS. TAYLOR: No objection, Your Honor.

THE COURT: It's admitted. You can publish it.

(Government Exhibit 78 was received in evidence.)

BY MR. McKENZIE:

Q. Using the cutaway, will you please explain to the jury

how a gas turbine engine works and in general terms, starting

at the front of the engine and moving to the back?

A. Sure. So the front of the engine, the big black blades

with the silver on the front, those are actually the fan

blades of the engine. Right behind that you'll see several

rows of smaller blades, much smaller blades. That is called

the low-pressure compressor. And then right behind that you

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RAMAKDAWALA - DIRECT (McKenzie)

Mary A. Schweinhagen, RDR, CRR (937) 512-1604

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will see another row of blades before there is a shaft, and

if I can -- I don't know if I can point it out. But those

rows, it's probably about 10 to 15 rows before that is what

they call the compressor.

So basically the air comes into the engine, and it

squeezes the air under extreme pressure and temperature,

much like a piston on the car. So when that piston goes up

and it's skewed through that air, it increases the

temperature and pressure. This does the exact same thing.

The physics is the same.

The next point, and it looks like a little shaft, large

shaft, that is actually the combustion section. So just

like in your car, you take the air, you mix it with fuel,

and then you ignite that air. And that is where you get

your hot -- very hot gas, very hot temperatures.

Then you will see like two stages or two rows right

behind that. That is what they call the high pressure

turbine. That is actually probably the hottest part of the

engine. That part is where it starts to extract energy from

the air to actually do other work. To give you the car

vernacular, when the piston goes down, that push is actually

doing work. It pushes the next set of pistons up on the cam

shaft. That's the same concept. So in order to keep the

system sustaining itself over and over again, that turns the

front part.

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RAMAKDAWALA - DIRECT (McKenzie)

Mary A. Schweinhagen, RDR, CRR (937) 512-1604

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The last set, all the way in the back -- there is

probably about seven back there -- that's the low-pressure

turbine. That actually turns the low-pressure compressor

and that fan. So the seven sets in the back actually turn

all the things in the front so that it can keep the system

going.

And the fan is actually propulsion. It's actually

where most of your thrust comes from. Most people think of

the hot gas coming out of the back of a jet engine actually

where all the power comes from. In a commercial engine,

it's actually the fan. The fan is responsible for 80

percent of all the thrust that comes out of an engine.

Q. And what about the black material that is surrounding the

fan? What is that called?

A. That's the engine casing. That's the fan containment

casing.

Q. I'd like to direct your attention to the front of this

engine, and let's start with the fan blades.

Traditionally, what are fan blades in jet turbine engines

made of?

A. Previously, they used to be all made of either steel or

aluminum or -- very rarely aluminum, but mostly titanium.

Q. And what about the fan blade casing or the engine casing,

what was that traditionally made of?

A. That was traditionally made of usually aluminum in

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RAMAKDAWALA - DIRECT (McKenzie)

Mary A. Schweinhagen, RDR, CRR (937) 512-1604

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order to try to keep the weight down.

Q. Now, during your training and experience, have you become

familiar with the term "composite" as it applies to the design

of aircraft parts?

A. Yes.

Q. Will you please explain to the jury what composite is?

A. So, in simple terms, a composite is basically any fiber

that actually has a matrix or resin that connects them

together. So actually, most of you have already seen

composites in everyday life. Anybody who drives on the road

and drives on concrete, that's actually a composite. The

metal rebars are actually the fiber and the cement that

holds those rebars together. That's actually the matrix.

So that allows it to take the load as you're driving on it.

Trees are actually a composite. So the fibers and then

the sap is actually the resin that holds the tree together.

And that's what makes a tree so incredibly strong.

In this case, it's actually carbon fiber with epoxy.

So the fiber acts as the strength and the epoxy ties it all

together.

Q. Going back to these fan blades. You mentioned that some

fan blades were made from steel and then they switched over to

aluminum. Why switch from steel to aluminum?

A. Mostly titanium. The reason is because of the weight.

In an aircraft, weight is key. There is no way around it.

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RAMAKDAWALA - DIRECT (McKenzie)

Mary A. Schweinhagen, RDR, CRR (937) 512-1604

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You have to have the lightest aircraft possible, both

whether it's for military reasons or for commercial reasons.

Q. Now, what advantage -- are you aware of any -- anybody

who manufactures fan blades made of carbon composite material?

A. No.

Q. What --

A. Except for General Electric.

Q. Except for who?

A. General Electric.

Q. What separates these carbon fan blades from titanium fan

blades?

A. So carbon fiber fan blades are about 50 percent lighter

than traditional titanium.

Q. And why does it matter that they are lighter?

A. So with commercial aircraft, it's all about cost per

passenger, right? So the more fuel efficient the engine,

the less the cost is per passenger so, obviously, the better

revenue that a U.S. airline or any airline can generate from

using a composite fan blade.

Q. And what about those engine encasements, what material

does General Electric use to manufacture that component of the

engine?

A. They also use carbon fiber.

Q. And what, if any, advantage does that give?

A. So that, again, gives a significant weight savings to

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RAMAKDAWALA - DIRECT (McKenzie)

Mary A. Schweinhagen, RDR, CRR (937) 512-1604

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be able to protect the engine.

Q. Throughout your employment with DTSA, have you become

familiar with the structure of the U.S. aviation industry?

A. Yes.

Q. Why is that important to your job?

A. So in order to be able to understand the type of

technology that the U.S. may be willing to export to a

foreign party, we have to be able to assess what the U.S.

capability is with respect to its entire industry.

Q. And how did you gain this familiarity?

A. So as the U.S. company came into request licenses, we

were able to talk to them and understand what their systems

and capabilities are as well as what they intended to

export.

Q. Let's explain what type of information is contained on

license requests for the jury, please.

THE COURT: I am going to interrupt -- I'm sorry --

and indicate that we need to break. This is tough on the

interpreter. The jury understands we're going to do this. So

we're going to take a 20-minute break.

During the break, take a break. Don't discuss the case

among yourselves or with anyone else. No independent

research. Continue to keep an open mind.

Can you guess what I'm going to say next? Out of respect

for you, we will rise as you leave.

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RAMAKDAWALA - DIRECT (McKenzie)

Mary A. Schweinhagen, RDR, CRR (937) 512-1604

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THE COURTROOM DEPUTY: All rise for the jury.

(Jury out at 10:08 a.m.)

THE COURT: We're on the break till 10:30.

Gentleman on the witness stand, please do not discuss

your testimony during the break.

We're in recess.

THE COURTROOM DEPUTY: This court is now in recess.

(Recess from 10:09 a.m. until 10:28 a.m.)

THE COURT: We're in pause mode off the record.

(Pause.)

THE COURT: Are we ready for the jury from the

government's perspective?

MR. McKENZIE: Yes, Your Honor.

THE COURT: Defense as well?

MS. TAYLOR: Yes, Your Honor.

THE COURT: Call for the jury.

THE COURTROOM DEPUTY: All rise for the jury.

(Jury in at 10:31 a.m.)

THE COURT: You may all be seated. Thank you.

15 members of the jury have rejoined us in the courtroom,

invigorated from their break and ready to go.

We will continue with the taking of testimony. The

witness remains under oath.

You may proceed, counsel.

BY MR. McKENZIE:

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RAMAKDAWALA - DIRECT (McKenzie)

Mary A. Schweinhagen, RDR, CRR (937) 512-1604

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Q. Will you please explain to the jury what type of

information is contained on the license applications that you

review?

A. So when an applicant submits a license, they have to

define what it is that they intend to export to the foreign

party. So they have to tell me what the actual controlled

item is, to the extent the controlled item is, the amount of

technical information, or any technical assistance they will

provide to the foreign party in the application.

Q. Who -- what types of entities submit these license

applications?

A. They are submitted by what's defined as a U.S. person,

so typically a U.S. company.

Q. In addition to reviewing license applications, do you

also read publicly available information published by U.S.

companies?

A. Yes.

Q. Do you also meet with representatives of U.S. companies

in the aviation industry?

A. Yes, I do.

Q. Will you please provide an overview to the jury of the

U.S. commercial airline industry starting with who

manufactures the actual planes?

A. So within the U.S., there is right now one major

aircraft manufacturer, and that's Boeing. There are other

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RAMAKDAWALA - DIRECT (McKenzie)

Mary A. Schweinhagen, RDR, CRR (937) 512-1604

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smaller ones, but Boeing is the prime U.S. aviation

manufacturer.

Q. What about for gas turbine engines?

A. So for gas turbine engines, there is actually four

primary -- there are smaller ones -- four primary U.S. gas

turbine engine manufacturers, which is General Electric,

Rolls-Royce, Pratt & Whitney, and Honeywell.

Q. Are you familiar with the design of fan blades used by

Rolls-Royce and Pratt Whitney?

A. Yes, I am.

Q. Will you please explain to the jury what type of fan

blades they use on their commercial gas turbine engines?

A. They use what they call a hollow titanium fan blade.

Q. Will you explain to the jury what a hollow titanium fan

blade is?

A. Yes. So in order to save as much weight as possible,

they try not to take it out of solid titanium because it

would be heavy. So they take two sheets of titanium with

little ribs inside that they weld all the edges together,

and then they pump it with an inert gas, which basically

puffs it up and allows the cavity to be empty, but it has

the shape that they need in order to do the aerodynamic

work. So that's a hollow titanium fan blade.

Q. What about Honeywell? What type of fan blades do they

use?

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RAMAKDAWALA - DIRECT (McKenzie)

Mary A. Schweinhagen, RDR, CRR (937) 512-1604

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A. They use solid, solid titanium fan blades. They do not

use hollow.

Q. And what about General Electric? Remind the jury what

kind of fan blades they use.

A. They use composite fan blades.

Q. What about for the engine encasements? What material is

used by Rolls-Royce and Pratt Whitney?

A. I believe they use typically titanium or aluminum.

Q. And what type of material does General Electric use?

A. General Electric uses composite fan casings.

Q. Has General Electric Aviation received any type of civil

certification from the United States government that allows

them to use these engines commercially?

A. Yes. The GE engines that use composite fan blades and

composite containment casings are FAA certified.

Q. Who else in the United States manufactures FAA-certified

carbon fiber fan blades?

A. No one.

Q. Who else in the world manufactures FAA-certified carbon

fiber fan blades?

A. No one I'm aware of.

Q. Are you aware of any other companies within the United

States who are attempting to build carbon fiber fan blades?

A. No.

Q. What about in Europe?

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RAMAKDAWALA - DIRECT (McKenzie)

Mary A. Schweinhagen, RDR, CRR (937) 512-1604

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A. So I believe Rolls-Royce is working on a composite fan

blade called the UltraFan.

Q. Has Rolls-Royce received any kind of civil certification

to sell those fan blades commercially in the United States?

A. No, not that I'm aware of.

Q. What types of engines use GE's carbon fiber fan blades?

A. Those are usually the large commercial engines.

Q. Could you provide the jury with some examples of what

types of planes they are used on?

A. So GEnx, which is, I believe, used on the 787; the

GE-90, which is, I believe, the 777; the new LEAP engine

that they have designed, which is for the Boeing 737 MAX;

the Airbus 320neo; as well as the COMAC C919.

Q. I'd like to start with the LEAP engine. Is that

manufactured exclusively by GE Aviation or is it part of a

joint venture?

A. No. It's part of a joint venture.

Q. With whom is it a joint venture?

A. Safran in France.

Q. What is Safran?

A. Safran is a French manufacturer of gas turbine engine

components, parts, and systems.

Q. You mentioned an aircraft named the C919. Who

manufactures that?

A. COMAC in China.

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RAMAKDAWALA - DIRECT (McKenzie)

Mary A. Schweinhagen, RDR, CRR (937) 512-1604

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Q. I'd like to come to that in just a moment.

Through your employment with DTSA, have you become

familiar with the structure of the PRC aviation industry?

A. Yes.

Q. Why is this important to your job?

A. So if a U.S. company wishes to export technology or

capabilities that is export controlled to a foreign entity

such as COMAC, we have to make a national security

assessment of the potential transfer.

Q. Please explain to the jury some of the ways in which you

have become familiar with the PRC aviation industry.

A. So a lot of it comes from industry. So in the license

application that U.S. industry must provide, it also has to

lay out all the parties that will be receiving the export

and who might be the end user of that technology.

We also get it from open source information, as well as

from the foreign parties themselves. Sometimes we will

actually go visit the foreign parties to understand more

about their systems and capabilities.

MR. McKENZIE: Your Honor, at this time I ask that

we publish Government's 10, which is already in evidence.

THE COURT: Very well.

MS. TAYLOR: No objection.

MR. McKENZIE: Could we zoom in on the bottom third

of the exhibit, please.

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RAMAKDAWALA - DIRECT (McKenzie)

Mary A. Schweinhagen, RDR, CRR (937) 512-1604

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Could you scroll down a bit more?

Thank you very much.

BY MR. McKENZIE:

Q. Will you please provide an overview of the Chinese

aviation industry to the jury?

A. So as we understand it, COMAC is a subsidiary of AVIC,

and it is run by the SASAC, which is the state-owned assets,

which is a state-owned enterprise.

Q. What is a state-owned enterprise?

A. So a state-owned enterprise, as we understand it from

the Department of Defense, is an enterprise that is run and

governed and directed by the Chinese government.

Q. Are you familiar with the Aviation Industry Corporation

of China, or AVIC?

A. Yes.

Q. What is AVIC?

A. AVIC is a conglomerate of multiple smaller subsidiaries

that designs and develops aircraft systems.

Q. And earlier you mentioned COMAC. Is that also known as

the Commercial Aircraft Corporation of China?

A. Yes.

Q. What does COMAC do?

A. COMAC is -- produces what they say is commercial

aircraft for -- or large commercial aircraft.

Q. Have you ever been to COMAC?

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Mary A. Schweinhagen, RDR, CRR (937) 512-1604

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A. Yes.

Q. When did you visit COMAC?

A. 2012.

Q. Why did you visit COMAC?

A. So COMAC had requested something called a validated end

user license. I guess the best way to say is like a super

license. So rather than submitting a license for every

single transaction that they wanted, they were trying to get

a blanket license saying that they were a validated end

user, that the U.S. government blessed them to get a certain

amount of technologies and capabilities without having to

submit a license every single time.

Q. When you traveled to COMAC, did you travel on an official

U.S. Visa?

A. Yes.

Q. Who invited you, if anyone, to COMAC?

A. COMAC invited us.

Q. What name did you use when you went to COMAC?

A. My given name, Rizwan Ramakdawala.

Q. Who did you tell them that you worked for?

A. U.S. Department of Defense.

Q. Did you ask to see any trade secrets while you were

there?

A. No.

Q. During the course of reviewing license applications, do

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Mary A. Schweinhagen, RDR, CRR (937) 512-1604

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you sometimes see U.S. trade secrets?

A. Yes.

Q. What, if any, restrictions do you have placed on you by

the law on what you can and cannot do with those trade

secrets? Please explain to the jury.

A. So if it's a commercial request, which most of these

are, it is controlled under the Export Administration

Regulation, and there is a Section 748.1(c) which dictates

confidentiality, which says that any information that the

U.S. party provides to the U.S. government is protected

under that confidentiality, and we are not allowed to give

that to any other party outside the United States

government.

Q. Do you sometimes in the course of reviewing license

applications see foreign trade secrets?

A. Yes.

Q. Are you allowed to share those foreign trade secrets with

anyone?

A. No.

Q. Why not?

A. So when we are given foreign trade secrets under the

auspices of a license request, we are still held by the

confidentiality requirements under the EAR.

Q. What type of engine does GE sell to COMAC?

A. So the engine that they are selling is the LEAP-1C

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RAMAKDAWALA - DIRECT (McKenzie)

Mary A. Schweinhagen, RDR, CRR (937) 512-1604

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engine for the C919. They also have sold the CF34 for the

ARJ21 aircraft.

Q. In order to sell that engine to COMAC, did GE Aviation

have to get a license?

A. Yes.

Q. Was that license approved?

A. Yes.

Q. Returning back to Government's 10, are you familiar with

the Aero Engine Corporation of China, or the AECC?

A. Yes.

Q. Please explain to the jury what this organization is.

A. So AECC is their conglomerate that they brought in 2015

to oversee all gas turbine engine development and production

for both military and commercial aviation.

Q. Does AECC currently manufacture military engines?

A. Yes.

Q. Does AECC currently produce any commercial engines?

A. No.

Q. Are you familiar with what, if any, engines AECC is

currently attempting to develop?

A. Yes.

MS. TAYLOR: Objection.

THE COURT: Basis? Basis?

MS. TAYLOR: Relevance, Your Honor.

THE COURT: I am going to give some latitude.

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Mary A. Schweinhagen, RDR, CRR (937) 512-1604

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Overruled.

You can answer the question.

THE WITNESS: Yes, I am aware.

BY MR. McKENZIE:

Q. And what type of fan blades are intended to be used on

this engine that AECC is developing?

A. The way we understand it is composite fan blades.

Q. Has AECC started selling engines with composite fan

blades yet?

A. No.

Q. Are you familiar with their attempts to develop this

engine?

A. Yes.

Q. Approximately how long have they been -- has AECC been

attempting to develop this engine?

A. From our understanding, at least 2015.

MR. McKENZIE: Your Honor, may I have a moment?

THE COURT: Yes.

(Pause.)

MR. McKENZIE: Your Honor, I have no further

questions.

THE COURT: Very well. The defense will have an

opportunity to ask questions.

MS. TAYLOR: Thank you, Your Honor.

THE COURT: Yes.

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MS. TAYLOR: If I may have a moment to move my

materials over.

THE COURT: Indeed.

MS. TAYLOR: Thank you for that extra moment.

THE COURT: Yes.

MS. TAYLOR: Your Honor, if I may, Sanna-Rae Taylor

on behalf of the defendant.

THE COURT: You are going to need to speak right up

because they are fancy microphones.

MS. TAYLOR: Thank you, Your Honor. Sanna-Rae

Taylor on behalf of the defendant.

THE COURT: You still need to speak up. I'm not

trying to be difficult.

MS. TAYLOR: Your Honor, if I may, I will remove my

mask so I can speak more clearly.

THE COURT: Yes.

MS. TAYLOR: Sanna-Rae Taylor on behalf of the

defendant.

THE COURT: Thank you.

MS. TAYLOR: Success. Thank you for your patience.

CROSS-EXAMINATION

BY MS. TAYLOR:

Q. Mr. Ramakdawala, thank you for your time this morning. I

have a few questions that I'd like to follow up on. I'm going

to do my best to be brief and not reask questions for which

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Mary A. Schweinhagen, RDR, CRR (937) 512-1604

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you have already provided answers. However, there may be a

question for which I need to seek additional clarification or

explanation if I may.

So, currently, your employer is the United States

government; is that correct?

A. That's correct.

Q. And since you graduated, your employers have been the

United States government and the United States military?

A. Yes.

Q. And you've never worked in the private sector; is that

correct?

A. That is correct.

Q. Currently, you serve as the division chief in your

position?

A. That is correct.

Q. And in addition to your job duties, are you currently a

member of any professional or industry-related associations?

A. No, I am not.

Q. Have you previously been a member of any associations?

A. Yes.

Q. Can you explain what those are, please?

A. So sometimes in order to understand how to standardize

things, associations are created to try to share information

and capabilities. So some of the basic ones are American

Institution of Aviation, Vertical Flight Society, and others

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RAMAKDAWALA - CROSS (Taylor)

Mary A. Schweinhagen, RDR, CRR (937) 512-1604

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like that.

Q. And you are no longer a member?

A. No.

Q. And why did you stop being a member of those

organizations?

A. Because I had other experts that were members.

Q. Your current work, I understand, involves reviewing the

opinions of a group of officers and experts relating to

policies that deal with the disclosure of technology and trade

sharing agreements; is that correct?

A. Trade sharing, no.

Q. Excuse me. Technology sharing agreements?

A. That is correct.

Q. Okay. And these science and technology agreements, they

include agreements between United States-based companies and

companies that are based in a foreign country; is that

correct?

A. That is correct.

Q. And as part of your current work, you focus on the policy

development and approval as it relates to the potential

disclosure of these technologies. Did I understand that

correctly?

A. If it's export controlled, yes.

Q. If it's export controlled. And not all technology is

export controlled; is that correct?

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RAMAKDAWALA - CROSS (Taylor)

Mary A. Schweinhagen, RDR, CRR (937) 512-1604

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A. That is correct.

Q. So then not all technology or information transfers are

subject to DTSA review; is that correct?

A. That is correct.

Q. Thank you. So if I understand correctly then, subject to

policy and regulation where it applies to controlled

technology, that legal technology transfers do actually occur

between United States entities and entities in foreign

countries; is that correct?

A. That is correct.

Q. And this includes aircraft technology?

A. Yes.

Q. And you had talked about the ways that technology or

information transfers can occur. I believe you had testified

that sometimes technology transfers can occur through open

source transfer; is that correct?

A. How they transfer, all I get to see is what's on a

license.

Q. You only get to see what's on the license?

A. Um-hmm.

Q. And then in terms of your opinion today, you are not here

to testify as an expert in the design or testing of composite

materials; is that correct?

A. I'm here to testify based on the questions asked as an

expert in gas turbine engines.

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RAMAKDAWALA - CROSS (Taylor)

Mary A. Schweinhagen, RDR, CRR (937) 512-1604

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Q. In engines, but not specifically the design, testing, and

manufacturing of carbon fiber composite blades and

encasements; is that correct?

A. No, I am an expert in composite technology. I was

responsible for category 1(c) in the EAR in negotiations for

the United States government, which controls composite

technologies.

Q. So then let's back it up. Were you actually involved

then in designing and understanding the finite elements of --

A. No.

Q. -- composite blades. No.

A. No.

Q. So you were not actually modeling --

A. No.

Q. -- the materials?

You were not actually designing the molds that would be

used for either fan blades or fan blade encasements?

A. That is a correct assessment.

Q. Thank you. And as part of your work, if I understand

correctly, you have people that work for you, so you are not

personally researching the latest scientific and academic

literature related to composite materials. Is that a correct

statement?

A. That is correct.

Q. And you have not worked for private -- or public

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RAMAKDAWALA - CROSS (Taylor)

Mary A. Schweinhagen, RDR, CRR (937) 512-1604

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companies such as GE Aviation; is that correct?

A. That is correct.

Q. And so you have not worked on the design or testing of

the composite materials, or composite materials -- excuse

me -- used in a GE Aviation fan blade or encasement

technology; is that correct?

A. That is correct.

Q. And you have not worked for any other aviation company;

is that correct?

A. That is correct.

Q. And we talked about your earlier experience when you were

with Navair. I'd like to refer to a couple of items in your

background.

If I understood correctly -- let me actually get to my

notes on that section -- you had worked on the T-58 and the

T-64 projects; is that correct?

A. That is correct.

Q. Were those blades or encasements made from fiber

composite materials?

A. No, they were not.

Q. And then in your work between 2004 and 2006, did you work

on any blades or encasements that were made from composite

materials?

A. No.

Q. Fiber composite materials?

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RAMAKDAWALA - CROSS (Taylor)

Mary A. Schweinhagen, RDR, CRR (937) 512-1604

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A. No.

Q. And is the same true for your work, let's see, up until

2006? I wanted to clarify.

A. Yes.

Q. And then in 2006, that's when you began your leadership

course; is that correct?

A. That is correct.

Q. Outside.

I believe you also had testified that no one else in the

world other than GE uses carbon fiber blades and encasements.

Did I understand you correctly?

A. Yes.

Q. You had talked a little bit about Rolls-Royce. Is that

correct?

A. Yes.

Q. And Rolls-Royce, where are they headquartered?

A. UK, United Kingdom.

Q. And they have operations here in the United States?

A. Yes.

Q. And are you aware that Rolls-Royce went through its own

design and testing process to develop fan blades and fan blade

encasement structures made from fiber composite materials?

A. Yes.

Q. Okay. And you are aware that sometime before 2010,

roughly, based on the open literature, Rolls-Royce had already

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made the decision to invest in researching and developing

aircraft engines made from these composite materials?

A. 2010, that sounds about right.

Q. Okay. And by 2011, are you aware that Rolls-Royce had

already manufactured and tested its carbon fiber blades and

encasements?

A. No, I was not aware.

Q. And then are you aware that Rolls-Royce continued to

perform tests on what I think you had identified as their

ultra fan engine designs, including in-flight tests, during

2013 and 2014?

A. Yes, I was aware of that.

Q. And you are aware that those occurred, those tests

occurred primarily at a testing field located here in the

United States?

A. Um-hmm.

Q. And are you -- well, I think actually you testified that

you weren't aware that Rolls Royce has actually already

started manufacturing the ultra fan blade for use in

commercial application?

A. No, I was not aware.

Q. So it would surprise you to know that if you do a simple

Google search, you can see that production is already

occurring for the ultra fan?

A. Possibly.

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RAMAKDAWALA - CROSS (Taylor)

Mary A. Schweinhagen, RDR, CRR (937) 512-1604

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Q. In reviewing information about DTSA -- am I saying that

correctly, D-T-S-A?

A. Yes.

Q. Your employer. I understand that DTSA advocates

something called a PARTNER workforce approach. Is that

something that's familiar to you?

A. Yes.

Q. So I understand that PARTNER is basically an acronym and

each letter is intended to represent a list of workforce

objection -- or, excuse me -- objectives in terms of how DTSA

members should interact with each other and with the industry;

is that correct?

A. Yes. It's a culture.

Q. A culture. So, for example, the P stands for being

proactive in one's job, and the N, it actually stands for

network, which is a request that colleagues interact with each

other and also engage with industry professionals; is that

correct?

A. That is correct.

Q. So as part of your work, have you had occasion to reach

out to colleagues within DTSA to discuss current trends within

the aviation industry?

A. Within DTSA, no.

Q. No. So you have solely just done the work yourself?

A. No. What I meant by within DTSA, I meant by those who

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Mary A. Schweinhagen, RDR, CRR (937) 512-1604

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work for me or outside of DTSA. There is nobody outside of

the main aircraft group that works on gas turbine engine or

aircraft technology other than us.

Q. And then you, I think, were starting to suggest you had

discussed with colleagues outside of DTSA, so those were not

employed by DTSA --

A. Yes.

Q. -- about trends in the aviation industry; is that

correct?

A. That is correct.

Q. Do you know, does DTSA conduct surveillance on foreign

companies operating outside the United States that are

involved in aircraft manufacturing?

A. We do not.

Q. Do you receive intelligence from non-DTSA entities that

provide information about aviation companies operating outside

the United States?

MR. McKENZIE: Objection, Your Honor. May we

approach?

THE COURT: Yes.

(At sidebar.)

THE COURT: Yes?

MR. McKENZIE: Your Honor, I fear that we are

veering into classified territory. I would cite to SEPA

Section 8 as the reason for my objection. The answer to his

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question, confirming or denying what type of intelligence he

receives and from whom, would be classified. And we did not

receive notice of this type of questioning in Section 5 of

SEPA. Therefore, we object.

MS. TAYLOR: Your Honor, we have no intention to ask

about classified information. What I was actually trying to

get at is what information DTSA has that might come from

publicly available sources. Some of the remainder of my

questions were actually just about publicly available sources

and do not need to tread into classified information.

THE COURT: Well, then, we need to restate the

question because I am told that the answer leads to classified

information.

MS. TAYLOR: I'll withdraw.

THE COURT: How are you coming on your questioning?

Because we are close to a 30-minute break.

MS. TAYLOR: Pardon me?

THE COURT: How much more do you have? We are at a

break.

MS. TAYLOR: I think it probably makes sense to take

a break. I don't have too much longer, but it would cross a

half hour. I believe it would cross a half hour.

THE COURT: You have a half hour more?

MS. TAYLOR: I think so. Let me just double check

myself.

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Mary A. Schweinhagen, RDR, CRR (937) 512-1604

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THE COURT: Well, that's sufficient for purposes of

a break. We'll take a break now.

I am going to sustain the objection, and you can rephrase

when we come back. We're going to take a break. The

objection is sustained.

Thank you.

(In open court.)

THE COURT: The objection is sustained. We are

going to take our regular 30-minute break. It's a little

after 11. I'd like to see you at 11:25. During the break,

take a break. Don't discuss the case with anyone, including

yourselves. No independent research. You need to keep an

open mind. We will rise as you leave for a break.

THE COURTROOM DEPUTY: All rise for the jury.

(Jury out at 11:02 a.m.)

THE COURT: The jury's left the room. We'll come

back at about 11:30 and hope to recess by 12:15 for lunch. We

will see you at -- after the break.

The witness is not to discuss his testimony.

We're in recess.

THE COURTROOM DEPUTY: This court is now in recess.

(Recess from 11 :03 a.m. until 11:26 a.m.)

THE COURT: Thank you. Ae we ready to proceed from

the government's perspective?

MR. McKENZIE: Yes, Your Honor.

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Mary A. Schweinhagen, RDR, CRR (937) 512-1604

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THE COURT: Defense as well?

MS. TAYLOR: Yes, Your Honor.

THE COURT: Very well. Let's call for the jury.

THE COURTROOM DEPUTY: All rise for the jury.

(Jury in at 11:28 a.m.)

THE COURT: You may all be seated. The 15 members

of the jury have rejoined us after a break.

Welcome back. On behalf of the Court and the community,

thank you for the work you are doing. We will continue with

the testimony.

Counsel, you may proceed. The witness remains under

oath.

MS. TAYLOR: Thank you, Your Honor.

THE COURT: Yes.

BY MS. TAYLOR:

Q. Mr. Ramakdawala, before we broke, we had talked about

internal and external collaborations, and I had a question for

you in terms of your background.

During the course of your career, have you attended

industry conferences where speakers were brought in to talk

about particular areas of expertise?

A. Yes, ma'am.

Q. And can you give us examples of some of those conferences

you attended that are related to your job?

A. So I've attended multiple vertical flight societies,

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RAMAKDAWALA - CROSS (Taylor)

Mary A. Schweinhagen, RDR, CRR (937) 512-1604

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which is the Society For Rotorcraft, the AIAA for Gas

Turbine Engine Technologies, and areas where we had talked

about composites and compressors.

Q. And were you ever a presenter at one of these

conferences?

A. No.

Q. Okay. And have you presented during the course of your

career, let's see, at -- on behalf of the Society For Internal

Affairs?

A. Yes, ma'am.

Q. So that was in 2020 at the Fall Virtual Advanced

Conference; is that correct?

A. Yes, ma'am.

Q. And can you tell us what you presented on?

A. So I gave a presentation on how to submit licenses such

that the U.S. Department of Defense can understand and

provide a recommendation to try to facilitate license

applications.

Q. Okay. And last week we heard from Special Agent Hull

that the Farnborough International Air Show is an

international event where the aviation and aerospace industry

gathers together.

Are you familiar with Farnborough?

A. Yes, ma'am.

Q. And did you present at Farnborough in 2016 as well?

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RAMAKDAWALA - CROSS (Taylor)

Mary A. Schweinhagen, RDR, CRR (937) 512-1604

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A. Yes, ma'am.

Q. And you made a presentation where aviation professionals

were invited?

A. Yes, ma'am.

Q. Was it well attended?

A. (Nonverbal sound.)

Q. We also talked about the structure of China's aviation

industry, correct?

A. Yes, ma'am.

Q. Or you had been asked questions -- excuse me -- on your

direct examination, correct?

A. Um-hmm.

Q. And you had talked about China having state-owned

enterprises?

A. Yes, ma'am.

Q. And are responsible for designing, testing, and

manufacturing military and commercial aircraft; is that

correct?

A. Yes, ma'am.

Q. And the U.S. government does not have really comparable

state-owned enterprises; is that correct?

A. As far as I'm aware, yes.

Q. And instead the government uses more of a bidding

process. Would you agree with that?

A. That is correct.

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RAMAKDAWALA - CROSS (Taylor)

Mary A. Schweinhagen, RDR, CRR (937) 512-1604

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Q. And basically what happens, as I understand it -- so

please correct me if I'm wrong -- the government would hire

what are independent contractors. So they wouldn't have a

state-owned enterprise. They would work with an interested

and successful bidder to create technologies according to

government specifications. Is that accurate?

A. Yes, that's good.

Q. So the trade-off between the two systems, as I'll call

it, the Chinese system and the American system, is one largely

is that the government in China would own the technology,

whereas, in the United States, the independent contractor

would own the technology; is that correct?

A. As far as ownership on their side, I do not know their

ownership structure.

Q. Okay. But you would agree with the latter part, that the

contractor in the United States that is performing a contract

on behalf of the government would remain the owner of that

technology; is that correct?

A. In most cases. If the U.S. government decides to buy

the data rights in their acquisition, only then would they

have ownership of the data.

Q. Thank you. And we talked a little bit about these stateowned enterprises and a little bit about GE Aviation joint

ventures. I'd like to ask just a few followup questions

there.

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RAMAKDAWALA - CROSS (Taylor)

Mary A. Schweinhagen, RDR, CRR (937) 512-1604

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GE Aviation has operations in China, correct?

A. That is correct.

Q. And GE conducts research, design, and manufacturing in

China; is that correct?

A. If it is, I'm not -- it could be among non-licensed

required entities. But that -- is that the license required

that I am aware of? No.

Q. Okay. Thank you. So are you familiar with a company

called Aviage?

A. Yes.

Q. Can you tell us what Aviage is?

A. I believe it's a joint venture between GE, and I can't

remember the foreign entities, where they develop avionic

systems for commercial aircraft in China.

Q. And would you agree with me that that foreign company is

AVIC.

A. Yes, I believe that is correct.

Q. And can you remind the jury what AVIC is?

A. That is the state-owned enterprises that develops and

produces aircraft and aircraft equipment for commercial and

military use.

Q. So GE Aviation is a clear contractor for the United

States government, correct?

A. Yep.

Q. And it also partners with Chinese entities such as AVIC?

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RAMAKDAWALA - CROSS (Taylor)

Mary A. Schweinhagen, RDR, CRR (937) 512-1604

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A. Yes.

Q. And you had talked about in this particular case that GE

Aviation and AVIC have joined together to provide avionics.

Is that what I understood?

A. Yes.

Q. And can you describe what avionics are?

A. So avionics is basically the electrical systems on an

aircraft. Communication, navigation, the flight controlled

computers, those are the avionic systems.

Q. And Aviage is providing the avionics for the COMAC C919;

is that correct?

A. I believe so. I am not aware in detail.

Q. Would you be surprised if I told you that Aviage is

providing the avionics for the C919?

A. No, I wouldn't be surprised.

Q. And you talked about CFM International before. I believe

you said that this was a joint venture between GE Aviation and

Safran; is that correct?

A. That is correct.

Q. And it's that joint venture that is providing the LEAP

engines for the COMAC C919; is that correct?

A. That is correct.

Q. And in terms of COMAC, are you familiar with an entity

called COMAC America Corporation?

A. Not in detail, no.

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RAMAKDAWALA - CROSS (Taylor)

Mary A. Schweinhagen, RDR, CRR (937) 512-1604

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Q. But are you aware that it's a subsidiary of the Chinese

COMAC?

A. It's possible.

Q. And do you know that they have offices here in the United

States in Newport Beach, California?

A. It's possible.

Q. And then in terms of COMAC and GE's continued

relationship with different entities in China, are you

familiar with the GCAT program?

A. A little.

Q. So if I tell you it's the Global Civil Aviation Talent

Program, would that ring a bell?

A. No.

Q. So do you know that that is a leadership program that is

a joint venture between COMAC and GE Aviation?

A. Okay.

Q. Are you aware that the purpose of that group, the GCAT

group, is to develop engineering leaders and to support

China's growing commercial aviation efforts?

A. I do not know.

Q. Do you know that as part of the GCAT leadership program

students attend seminars?

THE COURT: Excuse me. Excuse me. Is there an

objection?

MR. McKENZIE: Yes, Your Honor. The witness has

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RAMAKDAWALA - CROSS (Taylor)

Mary A. Schweinhagen, RDR, CRR (937) 512-1604

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already stated that he doesn't know about this program.

THE COURT: I agree. The objection's sustained.

MS. TAYLOR: Thank you, Your Honor.

BY MS. TAYLOR:

Q. Are you aware that AVIC and COMAC provide funding for

AECC that you talked about earlier?

A. Yes.

Q. So these are companies with whom GE Aviation does

business, and they in turn provide funding to AECC; is that

correct?

A. Yes, ma'am.

Q. Thank you. Would it surprise you to know that GE

Aviation -- or, excuse me -- GE signed a letter of intent to

purchase up to ten C919 aircraft?

A. I am aware.

Q. And we talked about manufacturers that are involved in

designing and manufacturing composite fan blades and

components for aircraft, correct?

A. Yes.

Q. Are you aware that back in 2014 Boeing contracted with

AVIC to produce -- I might mispronounce this. I may need your

help -- empennage tests for the 777 beginning in 2017?

A. Yes.

Q. Can you explain what empennage means?

A. If I had a picture, it would be easier.

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RAMAKDAWALA - CROSS (Taylor)

Mary A. Schweinhagen, RDR, CRR (937) 512-1604

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So the empennage -- so the fuselage is like the long

cigar tube, right? So if you look at an airplane and there

is the wings, that long cigar tube is actually called the

fuselage. At the very back it starts to kind of taper down

and then they have the stabilizers and stuff. That

tapering-down section is called the empennage.

Q. And so my question was to confirm that Boeing was

manufacturing tips for the empennage from composite materials,

correct?

A. Yes.

Q. I believe I have one more area of questioning about your

background. In your role of division chief, you'd agree that

strategic planning is beneficial to identifying your

department's priorities?

A. Okay.

Q. Are you involved in strategic planning for your division?

A. Yes.

Q. And are you aware that your division -- the DTSA, excuse

me -- issued a strategic plan that covers a five-year term?

A. Yes.

Q. Did you contribute to that five-year strategic plan?

A. Yes.

Q. And what part did you contribute?

A. To everything.

Q. Is there a particular subject area?

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RAMAKDAWALA - CROSS (Taylor)

Mary A. Schweinhagen, RDR, CRR (937) 512-1604

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A. No.

Q. Okay. And what's the benefit of having a strategic plan

for an organization?

A. The goal is to guide the organization in its ability to

execute its duties.

Q. And in your area of work, your -- what are your duties?

Would you please summarize those?

A. Any review of any manned aircraft technology transfers.

Q. So in your role as division chief, you are tasked with

identifying technology priorities and creating policies where

none exist?

A. That is correct.

Q. And I assume that's a pretty complicated process?

A. It can be.

Q. Would you agree that the process is complicated by the

fact that other countries do not have the same rules and

regulations governing intellectual property as the United

States?

A. Most definitely.

Q. You would agree that one of the challenges DTSA faces in

making policies is that other countries have different laws

other than the U.S. governing legal technology transfers?

A. Yes.

Q. And isn't it true that some countries don't actually

enforce the laws they have with respect to technology

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RAMAKDAWALA - CROSS (Taylor)

Mary A. Schweinhagen, RDR, CRR (937) 512-1604

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transfers and protection of intellectual property?

A. I don't know what they do.

Q. Are you aware that some countries do not have laws at all

that govern intellectual property rights?

A. Possibly.

MS. TAYLOR: Your Honor, I am nearly done. I just

want to gather my notes here.

THE COURT: Very well.

MS. TAYLOR: Thank you.

BY MS. TAYLOR:

Q. Mr. Ramakdawala, are you aware that Chinese researchers

have been researching and testing composite fan blades and

encasements for decades?

A. I am not aware for decades, no.

Q. What is your understanding of when Chinese researchers

began researching that particular area?

A. I am aware of about the 2015 time frame.

Q. And what is it that keys you into the 2015?

A. That is when the AECC became a state-owned enterprise,

and that is when I became aware of the CJ-1000A engine.

Q. And that engine is, I believe you testified, going to be

manufactured from composite materials; is that correct?

A. That's what we're -- that's what we think.

Q. And then wouldn't that indicate that China has been

researching composite blades and encasements for many years

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RAMAKDAWALA - CROSS (Taylor)

Mary A. Schweinhagen, RDR, CRR (937) 512-1604

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prior?

A. Possibly.

Q. Would you be surprised to know that back in 2006 Chinese

researchers were publishing on 3D fabric composites under

string rates in the Journal of Composite Materials?

A. It's possible.

Q. And are you aware that in 2015 the Society of Plastic

Engineers published a report -- or, excuse me -- published an

article called "The Containment Capability of 2D Triaxial

Braided Tape-Wound Composite Casing For Aero Engine"?

A. Didn't read it, so I don't know.

Q. And do you know that this was published by the Nanjing

University of Aeronautics and Astronautics along with Key

Laboratories in China?

A. I am not aware.

Q. But there is no secret that China and the United States

are both developing aircraft technology; is that correct?

A. That is correct.

MS. TAYLOR: Your Honor, if I may have a moment to

confer with counsel?

THE COURT: Yes.

MS. TAYLOR: Thank you.

(Pause.)

MS. TAYLOR: Your Honor, no further questions.

Thank you.

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RAMAKDAWALA - REDIRECT (McKenzie)

Mary A. Schweinhagen, RDR, CRR (937) 512-1604

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THE COURT: Very well. Thank you.

The government will have a chance to conduct redirect.

MR. McKENZIE: Thank you, Your Honor. I'll be

brief.

THE COURT: Give her time to get her gear out of

there.

MR. McKENZIE: Pardon, Your Honor? I didn't hear

what you said.

THE COURT: Give her a moment.

MS. TAYLOR: Thank you.

THE COURT: Redirect.

REDIRECT EXAMINATION

BY MR. McKENZIE:

Q. On cross-examination, you were asked about Rolls-Royce's

attempts to develop composite fan blades. Are you aware of

Rolls-Royce's general attempts to develop fan blades out of

composite materials?

A. Yes.

Q. Have they received FAA certification for these fan

blades?

A. No. Their first attempt would be EASA, which is the

European Airworthiness, and we are not aware of the EASA

certification.

Q. Are you aware of prior attempts by Rolls-Royce to develop

carbon fiber fan blades?

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RAMAKDAWALA - REDIRECT (McKenzie)

Mary A. Schweinhagen, RDR, CRR (937) 512-1604

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A. No.

Q. You were also asked about a publication in 2006 in China

about composite materials. Are you aware of any manufacturer

in China who developed and marketed carbon fiber fan blades in

2006?

A. No.

Q. Are you aware of any commercial carbon fiber fan blades

being manufactured and marketed in China today?

A. Not that are civil certified, no.

Q. Are you aware of any other manufacturer on the planet who

has been able to get civil certification for carbon fiber fan

blades other than General Electric Aviation?

A. No.

Q. When did General Electric Aviation get this

certification, approximately?

A. About 1993, I believe.

Q. So for the past approximately 28 years, who, if anyone

else, has matched GE on the market?

A. Nobody.

MR. McKENZIE: Thank you, Your Honor. No further

questions.

THE COURT: Very well. Recross on redirect, if any?

MS. TAYLOR: No further questions, Your Honor.

Thank you.

THE COURT: Very well. You are welcome to step down

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RAMAKDAWALA - REDIRECT (McKenzie)

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and go about your way. Thank you, sir.

THE WITNESS: Thank you, Your Honor.

THE COURT: Ladies and gentlemen of the jury, it's a

little early, but it's a good time to break for lunch. It's a

quarter till noon. We will break for an hour and 15 minutes.

And during the break, take the break. Don't talk about the

case among yourselves or with anyone else. No independent

research. Continue to keep an open mind. Enjoy your lunch.

We'll rise as you leave.

THE COURTROOM DEPUTY: All rise for the jury.

(Jury out at 11:47 a.m.)

THE COURT: The jury's left the room. We're about

to break for lunch. Is there anything that requires the

Court's attention?

MR. McKENZIE: Your Honor, the last witness has

requested to enter the courtroom now that he's done testifying

so he can observe the rest of the proceedings until his plane

leaves this evening, and so I would ask the Court's

permission.

THE COURT: Any objection from the defense?

MR. KOHNEN: No objection, Your Honor.

THE COURT: Very well. And is the government going

to be ready at 1 or should we break longer?

MR. McKENZIE: The government will be ready with our

next witness, Your Honor.

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RAMAKDAWALA - REDIRECT (McKenzie)

Mary A. Schweinhagen, RDR, CRR (937) 512-1604

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THE COURT: Defense have anything?

MS. TAYLOR: No, Your Honor.

THE COURT: All right. We're in recess until 1

o'clock.

THE COURTROOM DEPUTY: This court is in recess until

1 o'clock.

(Lunch recess from 11:48 a.m. until 1:05 p.m.)

THE COURT: We're back in the courtroom on the

record outside the presence of the jury.

If there is a microphone issue shortly before we break

for lunch, my thought is that that would get handled during

the lunch break, not while we keep the jury waiting.

Is the government ready to proceed?

MR. McKENZIE: Yes, Your Honor. I just wanted to

notify the Court that our next witness, Mr. Hascoet, will be

speaking through an interpreter, Ms. Helene Conte, who will

need to be sworn in as well, Your Honor.

THE COURT: Very well. Thank you.

Is the government -- or defense ready to proceed?

MS. CORS: Yes, Your Honor.

THE COURT: Let's call for the jury, please.

THE COURTROOM DEPUTY: All rise for the jury.

(Jury in at 1:08 p.m.)

THE COURT: You may all be seated. Thank you.

The 15 members of the jury have rejoined us. Good

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RAMAKDAWALA - REDIRECT (McKenzie)

Mary A. Schweinhagen, RDR, CRR (937) 512-1604

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afternoon. We are going to continue to hear testimony from

witnesses.

Who does the government call at this time?

MR. McKENZIE: Your Honor, the government calls

Frederic Hascoet.

THE COURT: If that gentleman would be willing to

approach. He has an interpreter with him. I am going to put

you over there. And if you would both pause for a minute.

Madam Interpreter, do you solemnly swear or affirm that

you will correctly transcribe or translate these proceedings.

INTERPRETER CONTE: I do, Your Honor.

THE COURT: Very well. Do you want to tell him you

just did that.

INTERPRETER CONTE: (Complies.)

THE COURT: Would you tell him I am going to

administer the oath to tell the truth.

INTERPRETER CONTE: (Complies.)

THE COURT: Does he speak English at all?

THE WITNESS: A little bit.

THE COURT: Would you translate my oath, please.

Do you solemnly swear or affirm your testimony will be

the truth subject to the penalty of perjury?

THE WITNESS: I do.

FREDERIC HASCOET, PLAINTIFF WITNESS, SWORN

THE COURT: This is going to go slowly because the

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HASCOET - DIRECT (McKenzie)

Mary A. Schweinhagen, RDR, CRR (937) 512-1604

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translation is not contemporaneous as it's been with the other

translators.

Are you telling him that?

INTERPRETER CONTE: Um-hmm.

THE COURT: Did he hear it?

THE WITNESS: (Nodded head.)

THE COURT: Does he have a microphone in his ear?

INTERPRETER CONTE: No.

THE COURT: But he can hear you, right?

INTERPRETER CONTE: Yes.

THE COURT: You may proceed, counsel.

DIRECT EXAMINATION

BY MR. McKENZIE:

Q. Good afternoon. I am Matthew McKenzie.

Will you please state your name and spell your last name

for the record?

A. My name is Frederic Hascoet. My last name is spelled

H-A-S-C-O-E-T.

Q. For whom do you work?

A. Safran Aircraft Engine.

Q. In what city do you work?

A. I work in the city of Ericobe [phonetic].

Q. In what country is that?

A. In France.

Q. What does Safran do?

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HASCOET - DIRECT (McKenzie)

Mary A. Schweinhagen, RDR, CRR (937) 512-1604

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A. Safran designs and manufactures jet engines.

Q. Does Safran have a joint venture with GE Aviation?

A. Yes.

Q. Do they build an engine together?

A. Yes.

Q. Which engine do they build together?

INTERPRETER CONTE: I need a repetition.

THE WITNESS: They've designed several together.

The first one was CFM56, and now they design several of them

called the LEAP.

BY MR. McKENZIE:

Q. What is your job at Safran?

A. I am the industrialization project manager for the new

parts.

Q. How long have you worked for Safran?

A. 34 years.

Q. Does Safran have a subsidiary in China?

A. Yes.

Q. What is the name of that subsidiary?

A. Safran Suzhou.

Q. Are you familiar with the term "Snecma Suzhou"?

A. Yes, indeed. It's the old name for Safran.

Q. Safran Suzhou?

A. Yes, Safran Suzhou, indeed.

Q. What is the relationship between Safran and Safran

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HASCOET - DIRECT (McKenzie)

Mary A. Schweinhagen, RDR, CRR (937) 512-1604

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Suzhou?

A. Safran Suzhou is a plant where we manufacture the

parts, engine parts.

Q. As part of your duties, do you occasionally travel to

China for work?

A. Yes.

Q. Why do you need to go to China for work?

A. To follow -- to follow the progress, monitor the

progress with the manufacturing of the first parts at the

Suzhou plant.

Q. Do you interact with the Safran Suzhou employees in

China?

A. Yes.

Q. In the past ten years, approximately how many times have

you traveled to China?

A. About six or seven times.

Q. Does Safran issue you a work laptop computer?

A. Yes.

Q. Does that computer have an individual user ID and

password that is used exclusively by you?

A. Yes.

Q. Does Safran also provide you with a work email address?

A. Yes.

Q. Does Safran have policies in place for how you are to

handle your computer?

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HASCOET - DIRECT (McKenzie)

Mary A. Schweinhagen, RDR, CRR (937) 512-1604

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A. Yes.

Q. Are those rules and policies explained to employees such

as yourself?

A. Yes.

Q. Does Safran have rules and policies regarding the taking

of Safran computers overseas when you travel?

A. Yes, we do have specific guidelines.

Q. Are those guidelines also communicated to employees?

A. Every time we go on an assignment.

Q. Will you share with the jury some of the guidelines that

are explained to you by your company?

MS. CORS: Objection.

MR. McKENZIE: Your Honor, there was an objection

from defense counsel.

THE COURT: Yes? I'm sorry.

MS. CORS: Your Honor, hearsay.

THE COURT: Can you rephrase, counsel?

MR. McKENZIE: Your Honor, the government's not

seeking this for the truth of the matter asserted but for the

fact that it was said for how he handles his computer abroad.

THE COURT: You can proceed.

BY MR. McKENZIE:

Q. Will you please explain some of those principles that are

told to you about how to handle your computer when you travel

abroad?

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HASCOET - DIRECT (McKenzie)

Mary A. Schweinhagen, RDR, CRR (937) 512-1604

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A. So, yes, we do have to keep it with us, on us at all

times. We keep it with us in the plane. We do not work on

it in public places. We cannot leave it in the trunk of a

car.

Yes, and we have to use all passwords and pass phrases

and encryption to access the computer.

Q. Does Safran have confidential company information that

must be kept secured by employees?

A. Yes, I think so.

Q. Does this include certain design aspects of your engines?

A. Yes, certainly.

Q. I'd like to direct your attention now to November of

2013. What were your job duties at that time?

A. We were beginning to assemble new LEAP parts at Safran

Suzhou.

Q. In or about November 2013, did there come a time that you

traveled to China?

A. Yes.

Q. In what -- to what city in China did you travel?

A. I went to Suzhou, Shanghai.

Q. What was the purpose of your travel?

A. To monitor the progress of the assembly of the first

engine parts that I was in charge of. So on a quality

standpoint. Also monitoring the deadlines and the

deliveries that were to be made to France.

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HASCOET - DIRECT (McKenzie)

Mary A. Schweinhagen, RDR, CRR (937) 512-1604

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Q. In what hotel did you stay in China?

A. The Crowne Plaza.

Q. Did you bring a Safran-issued laptop with you in November

of 2013?

A. Yes.

Q. Did that laptop have a specific user name and password

given to you?

A. Yes.

Q. In 2013, did you also have a Safran-issued email address?

A. Yes.

Q. Approximately, how long did you stay in China in November

2013?

A. About nine days.

Q. Did you meet with Safran Suzhou employees?

A. Yes, of course.

Q. Are you familiar with an individual named Tian Xi?

A. Yes.

Q. Who is Tian Xi?

A. Tian Xi was an engineer at Suzhou that was working with

us on the manufacturing of the parts.

Q. Did you work with him during your visits to China?

A. Yes.

Q. I'd like to direct your attention now to January of 2014.

Did there come a time that you returned to China?

A. Yes, I did go back to China.

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HASCOET - DIRECT (McKenzie)

Mary A. Schweinhagen, RDR, CRR (937) 512-1604

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Q. Where in China did you go in January 2014?

A. Suzhou.

Q. Why did you return to Suzhou?

A. To continue with the project I was in charge of.

Q. In what hotel did you stay?

A. The Crowne Plaza.

Q. How long were you in China on this trip, approximately?

A. About five or six days.

Q. Did you bring your computer with you, your Safran

computer?

A. Yes, of course.

Q. During this January 2014 trip, did you work with Tian Xi?

A. Yes, I did.

Q. Approximately how many times did you see him during your

trip?

A. Every day that I worked.

Q. Did you eat dinner with him?

A. We might have. I don't remember exactly.

Q. Where did you keep your laptop during the working hours

while you were in China?

A. On a desk. Usually it stayed on a desk.

Q. Was that in an office in a Safran Suzhou building?

A. Yes, of course.

Q. Did Tian Xi also work in that building.

A. Yes.

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HASCOET - DIRECT (McKenzie)

Mary A. Schweinhagen, RDR, CRR (937) 512-1604

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Q. Where did you keep your laptop when you were eating

meals, such as dinner?

A. It stayed on the desk.

Q. Did you bring your laptop computer home with you to

France at the conclusion of your visit to China?

A. Yes, I did.

Q. At some point after you returned to France, did you

discover that there was a problem with your computer?

A. Yes, when I tried connecting to the Safran site.

Q. And what did you discover to be the problem?

A. So the day that I was back to work in France I was not

able to connect to the site, to the Safran site.

Q. Did you learn why you could not connect to the site?

A. The IT department told me I had a virus on my laptop,

and they took my laptop.

THE COURT: Objection?

MS. CORS: Objection. Hearsay.

THE COURT: It's hearsay.

MR. McKENZIE: Your Honor, again, not being offered

for the truth of the matter asserted, which we will deal with

later, but to explain what he did next.

THE COURT: It's not offered for the truth of the

matter. You may proceed.

BY MR. McKENZIE:

Q. After you were told that by your IT department, did they

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HASCOET - CROSS (Cors)

Mary A. Schweinhagen, RDR, CRR (937) 512-1604

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then take your computer's hard drive from you?

A. Yes, indeed, they took the laptop. They took the hard

drive. They replaced the hard drive.

Q. Does Tian Xi still work for Safran Suzhou?

A. No.

Q. Do you know what happened to him?

A. Yes.

Q. What was that?

A. He was fired.

MR. McKENZIE: Your Honor, I have no further

questions at this time.

THE COURT: Very well. The lawyer for the defendant

has an opportunity to ask questions of the witness now.

Counsel.

MS. CORS: Thank you, Your Honor.

CROSS-EXAMINATION

BY MS. CORS:

Q. Jean Cors on behalf of Mr. Xu. Good afternoon,

Mr. Hascoet.

During your direct examination, you were asked about the

job responsibilities you had in China Suzhou in January of

2014, correct?

A. Yes.

Q. And as I understood your testimony, your title at the

time was -- was it industrialization pilot; is that correct?

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HASCOET - CROSS (Cors)

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A. That's correct.

Q. And could you explain to the jury in a little more detail

what that job entailed on a day-to-day timetable?

A. We were -- I was part of a team. We were making sure

that the parts that were being built, manufactured in Taiwan

were assembling properly in China. Also making sure that

some of the tools that we were receiving from France were

functioning properly. So operation by operation, making

sure that each industrial tool was working properly.

Q. Okay. So you were focused on working on the industrial

tools, I understand, correct?

A. That's correct.

Q. And this project, what was being assembled during that

January 2014 time frame in China?

A. We were assembling steel segments for the low-pressure

turbine for the LEAP engine.

Q. So these -- the parts for these steel segments were

coming from Taiwan; is that correct?

A. From Taiwan and France.

Q. So the parts themselves were not being manufactured in

Suzhou. They were being shipped to Suzhou for assembly there;

is that correct?

A. That's correct.

Q. And with respect to these parts, it sounds like you

weren't involved in any of the design of these parts; is that

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HASCOET - CROSS (Cors)

Mary A. Schweinhagen, RDR, CRR (937) 512-1604

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correct?

A. No, I wasn't.

Q. Or am I correct, in the manufacture of the parts

themselves?

A. No, I was. I was.

Q. In the manufacture. And with respect to the product that

was being assembled in Suzhou, that didn't involve composite

fan blades, did it?

A. No.

Q. Thank you. On your direct testimony you also talked

about a colleague of yours in China, Tian Xi, correct?

A. That's correct.

Q. And what was Mr. Tian Xi's role at that facility in

January of 2014?

A. He was the manager for the method part of the project.

Q. Okay. And is it safe to assume that as the manager for

that project, that it would be expected that you and he would

collaborate and communicate during the day regarding the

assembly process?

A. That's correct.

Q. So you worked together on this project?

A. Yes.

Q. And I take it, it wouldn't be uncommon if you went to

dinner or socialized with a colleague who also spoke French in

China?

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HASCOET - CROSS (Cors)

Mary A. Schweinhagen, RDR, CRR (937) 512-1604

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A. Yes. I don't remember having dinner with him by

myself. We had other colleagues with us.

Q. Okay. And you talked about on your direct testimony

security measures that Safran has put in place with respect to

computers or other devices that a -- personnel like you would

take to China, correct?

A. That's correct.

Q. And is it your understanding that part of the reason for

some of these protocols is that China is known to monitor and

surveil visitors who come to China?

A. Very honestly, I do not know. I suppose so.

Q. Okay. With respect to the guidelines that you were

discussing, I assume some of these guidelines involve what

information may be stored on a laptop and what information

should be stored more securely on the government's data

management system; is that correct?

A. I do not understand the question about the database

from the government.

Q. So some documents could be stored on a hard drive of a

computer, correct?

A. (In foreign language.)

Q. Or they could be stored in a data management system

maintained by the company, correct?

A. Yes, we had access to the database for the elements,

the components that we were in charge of.

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HASCOET - CROSS (Cors)

Mary A. Schweinhagen, RDR, CRR (937) 512-1604

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Q. Okay. And with respect to the guidelines, rules, and

regulations regarding where to save documents, whether on a

laptop or whether they should be stored on the company's data

management system, I assume you followed those guidelines

while in China?

A. Yes, absolutely.

Q. Thank you.

MS. CORS: A minute, Your Honor?

THE COURT: Yes.

(Pause.)

MS. CORS: I have no further questions, Your Honor.

Thank you, Mr. Hascoet.

THE COURT: The attorney for the government gets to

ask more questions if desired.

Redirect?

MR. McKENZIE: No, Your Honor. Thank you.

THE COURT: This witness has finished his testimony.

Au revoir. You may leave the courtroom.

Should we take a break or roll right into the next

witness?

MS. GLATFELTER: Your Honor, if we are going to take

a break shortly after starting the witness, I would assume

we'd take a break now. It's up --

THE COURT: All right. We will take a break now.

Thank you for your understanding. We're going to break until

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HASCOET - CROSS (Cors)

Mary A. Schweinhagen, RDR, CRR (937) 512-1604

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2 o'clock.

During the break, take the break. Don't discuss it among

yourselves or with anyone else. No independent research.

Continue to keep an open mind.

We'll rise as you leave.

THE COURTROOM DEPUTY: All rise for the jury.

(Jury out at 1:42 p.m.)

THE COURT: 15-minute recess.

THE COURTROOM DEPUTY: This court is in recess for

15 minutes.

(Recess from 1:43 p.m. until 2:0 p.m.)

THE COURT: Bon jour. Is the government ready to

proceed?

MS. GLATFELTER: Yes, we are, Your Honor.

THE COURT: The defense as well?

MS. TAYLOR: Yes, Your Honor.

THE COURT: Very well. Let's call for the jury.

THE COURTROOM DEPUTY: All rise for the jury.

(Jury in at 2:02 p.m.)

THE COURT: You may all be seated.

The 15 jurors have rejoined us. We will continue to hear

testimony.

Who does the government call at this time?

MS. GLATFELTER: Your Honor, the government calls

Mr. Sun Li.

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LI - DIRECT (Glatfelter)

Mary A. Schweinhagen, RDR, CRR (937) 512-1604

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THE COURT: If he would approach. We are going to

put you over here.

And if would you pause and raise your right hand for the

oath to tell the truth. Do you solemnly swear or affirm the

testimony you give today will be the truth, subject the

penalty of perjury?

THE WITNESS: I do.

SUN LI, PLAINTIFF WITNESS, SWORN

THE COURT: Very well. We will put you in this

chair up here.

THE WITNESS: Thank you.

THE COURT: Once you get settled and close to the

microphone, we will begin with the questioning.

Ms. Glatfelter, you may proceed when you are ready.

MS. GLATFELTER: Thank you, Your Honor.

THE COURT: Very well.

DIRECT EXAMINATION

BY MS. GLATFELTER:

Q. Mr. Li, can you state and spell your name for the record?

A. Last name L-I. First name S-U-N.

Q. Thank you. What state do you currently reside in?

A. I live in the Washington state.

Q. Are you currently employed?

A. Yes.

Q. Okay. And do you have a bachelor's degree?

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LI - DIRECT (Glatfelter)

Mary A. Schweinhagen, RDR, CRR (937) 512-1604

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A. Yes.

Q. Where is that from?

A. It was from Nanjing University in China.

Q. And do you have a master's degree?

A. No.

Q. Are you pretty close to obtaining the master's degree?

A. One credit short.

Q. And what did you study for your bachelor's degree and

your master's degree?

A. My bachelor's degree is in geography.

Q. Okay. How about your master's? Or what you are studying

for for your master's.

A. Right. I was studying geographical information system,

known as GIS.

Q. Now, do you have work experience in the area of IT or

information technology?

A. I do.

Q. And within the area of IT, do you have experience with

computer program management?

A. Yes, I do.

Q. Do you have special training or licensing -- I'm sorry --

licenses in conjunction or about project management?

A. Yes. The Project Management Institute issues a

certificate called Project Management Professional, PMP in

short. So I have that certification.

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LI - DIRECT (Glatfelter)

Mary A. Schweinhagen, RDR, CRR (937) 512-1604

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Q. And, generally, can you explain to the jurors what

program management is?

A. Sure. So it's commonly known as portfolio program and

the project managements, the PPPM. It's mostly known,

though, to general public as a project management.

So that industry or field focus on productivity,

meaning that with limited resource, time, budget you deliver

business the results, the benefits that meet their business

needs.

Q. Thank you. Now, at some point during your experience

with IT work, did you work for the Boeing Company?

A. I did.

Q. For how many years?

A. About ten years.

Q. And, generally, what kind of business is Boeing in, or

involved in?

A. As far as I know, Boeing is a global civil and defense

manufacturer.

Q. Of aircrafts?

A. Aircrafts, yeah.

Q. And when you were working at Boeing, what were the

positions that you held there?

A. I held two positions in history of the ten years. The

first five years I was a technology specialist, and the

second five years I was a project manager for IT.

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LI - DIRECT (Glatfelter)

Mary A. Schweinhagen, RDR, CRR (937) 512-1604

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Q. And what does a technology specialist do?

A. I was responsible for data backup and archive, which

means you stored the data produced by engineering, design,

manufacturing, whatever the process produce the data onto

computer media, and keep it there for as long as airplane's

flying, any model. That's per FAA regulations. So the

Boeing has to keep any engineering data when that model

airplane is in service, just in case they crash or something

happens, they can go back to check the design manufacturing

processes to make sure they can find the flaws or problems.

Q. And so your part of that was backing up the data and

archiving the data, correct?

A. Correct.

Q. Okay. And you said that was the first five years that

you were at Boeing, right?

A. Yes.

Q. And the last five years you were at Boeing you did

program management, I believe?

A. Yes, program and project management.

Q. Can you explain to the jury what kind of responsibilities

you had in that role?

A. Sure. I was working in this business unit of the

Boeing Company called IT International where I was mainly

focus on support Boeing's IT workforce globally.

Specifically, I was covering Russia region, which includes

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LI - DIRECT (Glatfelter)

Mary A. Schweinhagen, RDR, CRR (937) 512-1604

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Ukraine, eastern Europe.

Q. Okay. And during those last five years at Boeing, at

some point were you contacted by an individual named Qu Hui?

A. Yes.

Q. How did he contact you?

A. I believe initially via email.

Q. And before you began communicating via email, had you met

him before or talked to him ever?

A. No.

Q. Do you know how he obtained your contact information?

A. Mr. Xu mentioned in his email that he got my name

through some kind of alumni organization or a catalog, and

also through the department head, I guess the dean of the

department.

And also he mentioned that he contact my dad, who is a

professor of that department, and I actually was his student

because I studied geography; he taught geography. So

everybody in the department knows me pretty well. I grow up

on campus, so I know a lot of professors.

Q. When you say that he taught you, are you referring to

your father?

A. Yes.

Q. And we'll look at those emails in a moment.

You said that the initial contact was through email, and

did there come a point in time when you met Mr. Qu Hui in

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LI - DIRECT (Glatfelter)

Mary A. Schweinhagen, RDR, CRR (937) 512-1604

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person?

A. Yes, later.

Q. Can you tell the jury how that happened?

A. So I visit my dad who lives in China, Nanjing, city of

Nanjing, on an annual basis. So I was planning a trip to go

home to visit him, and then I was contacted by Mr. Xu that

if it's convenient to meet that time, while I was in

Nanjing. So that's how it happened.

Q. Okay. And did you meet Mr. Qu Hui in Nanjing?

A. Yes.

Q. Where did you meet him?

A. So I stayed in hotel which is close to where my

father's apartment is. We met in the hotel lobby for about

15, 30 minutes that day, on that particular day.

Q. Okay. Was Mr. Qu Hui alone or was there other people at

the meeting?

A. There definitely more than himself, but I do not

remember is two or three persons. Maybe it's two other

people with him.

Q. And you said the meeting was about 15 to 30 minutes long?

A. Yeah. I don't really recall. People tend to think --

time flies fast, right? You always underestimate. But my

memory, it probably tells me about 30 minutes max.

Q. Okay. And what happened during the meeting?

A. So we had a couple of email exchanges that Mr. Xu told

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LI - DIRECT (Glatfelter)

Mary A. Schweinhagen, RDR, CRR (937) 512-1604

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me he is interested to learn computer security, or Internet

security, or information security. I don't know which term

he use. But it's about security of IT.

My response was, although I have done some work, but

that's not my specialty. Especially, I was in project

management for so many years. Technology evolves so quick.

So my knowledge is probably out of date by that time. But,

however, I will be willing to share my experience and the

knowledge about the project management with him.

So that meeting, since I didn't -- because I didn't --

could not or did not provide him the network security thing,

he was instead asking, say maybe we could just sit down and

get to know each other, sort of like introductory session.

Then maybe we can in future continue keep contact, see where

it goes. So that meeting was basically about introduction

sessions.

Q. Okay. And after the meeting, were you interested in

continuing the relationship?

A. I said yes, because as a PMP certification from PMI, we

have obligation to share, collaborate, educate our peers,

the general public about the best practices of project

management, how do we making business work, how do we

achieve the maximum benefits for the business.

Q. Okay. And you are distinguishing project management from

your IT work; is that right? You are distinguishing -- you

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LI - DIRECT (Glatfelter)

Mary A. Schweinhagen, RDR, CRR (937) 512-1604

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are distinguishing your project management work that you'd be

willing to share versus your knowledge about Internet

security; is that right?

A. Correct, yes.

Q. Okay. Did you meet with Mr. Qu Hui again after that

meeting?

A. No. That was the only encounter between us.

Q. The meeting took place in a lobby. Did Mr. Qu Hui

inquire about meeting someplace else?

A. Initially, he asked if we could meet in my room. My

room so small. And also I didn't want to mix business and

personal matters, and so I said why don't we meet lobby,

which have a bigger room and is in the public open space.

So it's all pure business from my perspective.

Q. Okay.

A. That way.

Q. That's what you mean about business and personal matters?

A. Sorry?

Q. You said that you didn't want to mix business and

personal matters?

A. Yeah. I didn't want to really mix my private life with

whatever the business we were going to talk about.

Q. Any other reasons?

A. No. Other than size of room is too small to

accommodate anybody, but I mainly didn't want to mix those

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LI - DIRECT (Glatfelter)

Mary A. Schweinhagen, RDR, CRR (937) 512-1604

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two things together.

Q. After the meeting -- or during the meeting -- I'm

sorry -- did Mr. Qu Hui talk about reimbursing you for your

travel?

A. I don't believe it was mentioned during the meeting,

but it was afterwards in a email follow-up.

Q. And did you receive that reimbursement?

A. I never wanted to have that reimbursement.

Q. Okay. Can you explain to the jury why you didn't want

reimbursement?

A. I visit my dad annually anyway. I regard this as

private trip. I was willing to spare a day of my own time

to meet Mr. Xu maybe. I don't know what his real identity

was. But to me, to take advantage of that money is

unethical because we, as PMP, would go by PMI code of ethics

and conduct. I think it's unethical to take that money.

Q. So you didn't receive the reimbursement?

A. He kept asking me about give him the travel itinerary,

ticket information. I said, no, thank you. I didn't want

him to have that.

Q. If we can -- you said that you received initially an

email from Mr. Qu Hui.

MS. GLATFELTER: If we could show the witness

Exhibit 90a.

THE COURT: Yes.

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LI - DIRECT (Glatfelter)

Mary A. Schweinhagen, RDR, CRR (937) 512-1604

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BY MS. GLATFELTER:

Q. Mr. Li, do you recognize Government's Exhibit 90a on your

screen?

A. I do.

Q. Is this the email correspondence, generally, you were

referring to with Mr. Qu Hui?

A. Yes.

Q. And did you receive these emails on your own email

account?

A. Correct, yes.

Q. Did you have an opportunity to review those before you

testified here today?

A. I did.

MS. GLATFELTER: Your Honor, I'd move to admit

Government's Exhibit 90a.

THE COURT: Any objection?

MS. TAYLOR: No objection.

THE COURT: It's admitted.

(Government Exhibit 90a was received in evidence.)

MS. GLATFELTER: And if we can publish these to the

jury?

THE COURT: Yes.

BY MS. GLATFELTER:

Q. Mr. Li, do you see an email address on there from Mr. Qu

Hui?

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LI - DIRECT (Glatfelter)

Mary A. Schweinhagen, RDR, CRR (937) 512-1604

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A. I do remember that email address.

Q. Okay. And what is the email address?

A. It's jastquhui@gmail.com.

Q. And the emails we are looking at are in Chinese, correct?

A. Correct. The content was.

MS. GLATFELTER: Okay. I'd like to show the witness

Exhibit 90b.

THE COURT: Very well.

BY MS. GLATFELTER:

Q. Mr. Li, do you recognize these as the English versions of

the emails we were looking at before? Or the translated

versions?

A. Are you asking me? Sorry.

Q. Yes. Do you recognize these as the English translated

versions of the emails we were just looking at?

A. Yes, I do.

MS. GLATFELTER: Move to admit and publish.

THE COURT: Any objection?

MS. TAYLOR: No objections.

THE COURT: It's admitted. Publish.

(Government's Exhibit 90b was received in evidence.)

BY MS. GLATFELTER:

Q. I'd like to turn to page 2 first.

Mr. Li, can you see that on your screen okay?

A. Yeah, I can see it.

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LI - DIRECT (Glatfelter)

Mary A. Schweinhagen, RDR, CRR (937) 512-1604

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Q. Great. Mr. Li, is this the first email that you

received?

A. I believe so.

MS. GLATFELTER: Can you not see it on your screens?

Can we publish it to the jury?

THE COURT: Yes. Did somebody kick the screen?

THE JUROR: We have some that are static, some that

are not.

THE COURT: All right. We'll take a moment.

Somebody younger than I may assist you.

So what jurors can't see a screen that works?

(Hands raised.)

THE COURT: Okay, we need to get it fixed. If you

will bear with us.

Still missing? No. We have thumbs up.

Is there any juror who cannot see a working screen?

(No response.)

THE COURT: I'm glad I was able to fix it for you.

You may proceed.

BY MS. GLATFELTER:

Q. Mr. Li, was this the first email that you received from

Mr. Qu Hui?

A. Yes.

Q. What is the date of that email?

A. That's September 17, 2015.

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LI - DIRECT (Glatfelter)

Mary A. Schweinhagen, RDR, CRR (937) 512-1604

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Q. And do you see his name at the bottom, how he identified

himself?

A. Yes, correct.

Q. And what was that name?

A. Qu Hui.

Q. And would you mind reading the email for the jury.

A. Sure.

"Through the introduction of Deputy Dean KE" -- I think

it means Ke, like that, in Chinese -- "of Department of

Geographical Science of Nanjing University, I paid an

announced visit to your father.

"Jiangsu Provincial Association of International

Science and Technology Development is a secondary

association under Provincial Association of Science and

Technology. We mainly work on strengthening science and

technology exchanges and the calibrations between China and

other countries.

"We learned about you" -- I think it is spelling

something here -- "through the overseas students' database

from Provincial Overseas Chinese Affairs Office. We think

your information is compatible with the needs of Chinese

technology. Currently, Chinese network development

capacity -- capability is relatively immature, so we would

like to invite you for an exchange next time you return to

China.

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LI - DIRECT (Glatfelter)

Mary A. Schweinhagen, RDR, CRR (937) 512-1604

88

"Thanks. Qu Hui."

Q. Now, Mr. Li, you had said -- mentioned before that you

believe that he received your contact information from some

sort of database. Is this the database that you are referring

to.

A. I personally don't have the knowledge, but reading

email, it sounds like it.

Q. I mean, this is what he told you how he received your

contact information --

A. Yes.

Q. -- from this database? That's what you were referring to

earlier?

A. Correct.

Q. And in this email, does he mention that he visited your

father?

A. Yes.

Q. Based on your -- based on the visit to your father, did

you feel any obligation to respond to this email?

MS. TAYLOR: Objection, Your Honor.

THE COURT: There is an objection.

MS. TAYLOR: Leading. I have tried to be patient

but there have been a number --

THE COURT: I heard "leading," and I am going to

sustain the objection and ask you to rephrase it.

MS. TAYLOR: Thank you.

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LI - DIRECT (Glatfelter)

Mary A. Schweinhagen, RDR, CRR (937) 512-1604

89

BY MS. GLATFELTER:

Q. What, if any, obligation did you feel to respond to this

email?

A. I do feel obligated to respond to this email.

Q. For what reason?

A. For one thing, that my professional promote the sharing

and the collaboration between peers of my profession. So is

I strongly felt I have obligation to follow that principle,

I guess, from PMI.

Q. Okay. And when you say "PMI," you're talking about

program management?

A. Project Management Institute.

Q. As opposed to information technology or network security?

A. Yes, correct.

MS. GLATFELTER: Okay. If we can go to page 1. And

scroll down to the bottom.

BY MS. GLATFELTER:

Q. Did you respond to -- do you know if you responded to his

email?

A. Could you repeat?

Q. Did you respond to his email?

A. Yes.

Q. Okay. On what date did you respond to him?

A. Could you scroll down a little bit? I can't see the

stamp, the time stamp.

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LI - DIRECT (Glatfelter)

Mary A. Schweinhagen, RDR, CRR (937) 512-1604

90

Okay. Thank you.

It was 2015, October 6.

Q. Okay. If we look at -- the bottom email is the one I am

referring to, September 22, 2015.

A. Oh, okay. Sorry.

Q. The one that starts "Greetings."

A. Right. It's September 22, 2015.

Q. So if you -- your response versus page 1 of 2, if we

could read your response. If you can go ahead and read that?

A. Just make sure, you want me to read my response?

Q. Yes.

A. Okay. Thank you.

"Mr. Qu Hui, Greetings.

"Glad to receive your email. Thank you very much for

providing the opportunity to exchange with the counterparts

and the students in China. Due to work-related reasons, I

apologize for the delay in response. I will certainly

contact you again with details this week.

"Thanks."

MS. GLATFELTER: Okay. And if we could go back to

page 1 again.

BY MS. GLATFELTER:

Q. And did you respond to him again with a longer response?

A. Could you zoom in little bit?

MS. GLATFELTER: And if we can scroll down a little

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LI - DIRECT (Glatfelter)

Mary A. Schweinhagen, RDR, CRR (937) 512-1604

91

bit, Jackie. Thank you.

THE WITNESS: Yes.

BY MS. GLATFELTER:

Q. All right. And what did you tell Mr. Qu Hui in that

response?

A. Verbatim or read it or --

Q. You can go ahead and read this one and then we will move

on.

A. Okay. So what I wrote was, "Mr. Qu, Greetings.

"I have some time to talk with you today. My main

responsibility at Boeing is international IT project

establishment and management.

"Network security is often a key issue but not my

expertise. Currently, the U.S. and China hold different

views on the issues of network security.

"With the above considerations, I am pleased to have

this opportunity to communicate and exchange with my Chinese

counterparts. However, I do not think I am the best fit in

the field of network security.

"If you agree with my thoughts, maybe we can further

our discussions.

"Thanks."

Q. How did Mr. -- or did Mr. Qu Hui respond to this

particular email where you told him that you could not present

to him or exchange ideas about network security?

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LI - DIRECT (Glatfelter)

Mary A. Schweinhagen, RDR, CRR (937) 512-1604

92

MS. GLATFELTER: Ms. Prim, if we could zoom out

there. Thank you.

THE WITNESS: Okay. So I am reading off his direct

reply to my email here, what he said.

"Teacher" -- my last name.

"Greetings. I am glad to receive your reply.

"Good IT establishment and management are the foundation

for the network protection. In fact, Chinese enterprise do

not pay enough attention on network development. Many large

enterprise network protection systems are useless.

"Boeing being an international defense enterprise, it

must have sufficient experience for us to reference. I think

there is a lot of room for exchange even in your field of

expertise.

"Do you have plans to return to China in the near future?

We can discuss further at your convenience.

"Jastquhui."

BY MS. GLATFELTER:

Q. Thank you. In his response email to you, it states,

"Boeing being international defense enterprise, it must have

sufficient experiences for us to reference."

That phrase, "international defense enterprise," what

does that mean to you, or what did you understand that to

mean?

A. I have -- at the time when I read this email, this work

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LI - DIRECT (Glatfelter)

Mary A. Schweinhagen, RDR, CRR (937) 512-1604

93

really didn't register in my mind until later I realize he's

probably specifically interest in the defense side of

technology.

Q. Does Boeing have a commercial and a defense side to its

business?

A. Yes, Boeing has both commercial and defense businesses.

Q. And by "defense," what do you mean?

A. As far as I know, like military aircraft, missiles,

maybe space vehicles. That's my understanding.

Q. Okay. Now, at some point you told us that you returned

to China, right? And you met Mr. Qu Hui. Did you continue to

correspond with him during that period?

A. I believe so.

MS. GLATFELTER: Okay. If we can show the witness

Exhibit 91b, please.

THE COURT: 91?

MS. GLATFELTER: 91b.

THE COURT: B as in "boy"?

MS. GLATFELTER: Yes.

THE COURT: Very well.

MS. GLATFELTER: And if you can zoom into that,

Ms. Prim.

BY MS. GLATFELTER:

Q. Mr. Li, do you see the content on the screen?

A. Yes, I do.

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LI - DIRECT (Glatfelter)

Mary A. Schweinhagen, RDR, CRR (937) 512-1604

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Q. And did you have an opportunity to review this before you

testified?

A. I did.

Q. Okay. And does this exhibit show your WeChat

communications with Mr. Qu Hui?

A. It is mine with him.

MS. GLATFELTER: Your Honor, I'd move to admit 91b.

THE COURT: Any objection?

MS. TAYLOR: No objection.

THE COURT: It's admitted.

(Government Exhibit 91b was received in evidence.)

BY MS. GLATFELTER:

Q. And are these messages in Chinese?

A. Yes.

Q. Okay. So I'd like you to look at Exhibit 92.

MS. GLATFELTER: If we could show the witness

Exhibit 92?

THE COURT: Yes.

BY MS. GLATFELTER:

Q. Mr. Li, did you have an opportunity to review Exhibit 92

before your testimony?

A. I have.

Q. What does Exhibit 92 contain?

A. It looks like an email exchanges between me and him.

Q. Okay. And does it also include the WeChat correspondence

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LI - DIRECT (Glatfelter)

Mary A. Schweinhagen, RDR, CRR (937) 512-1604

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that you had with Mr. Qu Hui?

A. Not on the screen. They are all emails.

Q. I am sorry. On subsequent pages of the exhibit that you

reviewed, does it show your WeChat communications also?

A. Could you show the subsequent screen pages?

Q. Sure.

MS. GLATFELTER: If we can show the witness page 4,

for example.

THE WITNESS: Yes.

BY MS. GLATFELTER:

Q. Okay. And so is Exhibit 92, what you're looking at, a

compilation of both the emails and the WeChat messages?

A. Yes.

MS. GLATFELTER: Your Honor, at this time I'd move

to admit Government's Exhibit 92.

MS. TAYLOR: No objection.

THE COURT: It's admitted.

(Government Exhibit 92 was received in evidence.)

MS. GLATFELTER: And I'd ask to publish this to the

jury.

THE COURT: Yes.

MS. GLATFELTER: Just making sure the jurors can

see.

BY MS. GLATFELTER:

Q. Does Exhibit 92 have columns at the top, or descriptions

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LI - DIRECT (Glatfelter)

Mary A. Schweinhagen, RDR, CRR (937) 512-1604

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of the columns at the top of the page?

A. Yes.

Q. And what are those descriptions?

A. "From," "To," "Date," and "Content."

Q. At this time I'd like to go ahead and read through this

exhibit with you.

Are the green messages, messages that you sent to Mr. Qu

Hui?

A. Correct.

Q. Let's have you read the green messages, and I'll read the

blue messages.

And for the messages, we will state with the date. So we

will read the date and the type of communication. And then we

will move down the page.

I believe we read the messages on the first page, so if

we can go to the second page.

October 9, 2015 email. "Teacher, greetings. I am glad

to receive your reply.

"Good IT establishment and management are the foundation

for the network protection. In fact, Chinese enterprises

don't pay enough attention on network development. Many large

enterprise network protection systems are useless.

"Boeing being an international defense enterprise, it

must have sufficient experiences for us to reference.

"I think there is a lot of room for exchange even in your

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LI - DIRECT (Glatfelter)

Mary A. Schweinhagen, RDR, CRR (937) 512-1604

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field of expertise. Do you have plans to return to China in

the near future? We can discuss further at your convenience."

A. Yeah, next is my response, was dated January 20, 2016.

I said, "Mr. Qu Hui.

"I might return to Nanjing for two weeks around April.

I will be willing to share some IT and project management

experience with Chinese counterparts. If you are

interested, we can keep in touch?

"Thanks."

Q. Your response, January 22, 2016, email. "Teacher,

welcome back.

"I can make arrangements for the exchange. It is almost

spring festival now, and the universities are on break. I

will complete related work after the holiday. Keep in touch.

Wishing you and the family a happy New Year."

February 29, 2016 email. "Teacher, greetings.

"Apologize for the delay in reply. Considering you have

been working as an IT in a large company all these years, I

recently contacted Jiangsu" -- I am not sure about the next

word -- "information security technology company, Jiangsu

Cimer Information Security Technology Company, and they are

very interested in your resume and hope to hear you share your

work experience. Who do you think?"

A. My response was dated March 2, 2016?

Q. Yes.

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LI - DIRECT (Glatfelter)

Mary A. Schweinhagen, RDR, CRR (937) 512-1604

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A. It reads, "Thank you very much for your kindness,

Mr. Qu Hui.

"I am not trying to be difficult, but my current field

of expertise is not in information security. I was

involved" -- I think there is typo there -- it should be "in

that ten years ago. But information security technology is

advancing all the time. I now focus on management

perspective.

"If there are enterprise" -- plural -- "enterprises

interested in portfolio, program, project management, and

willing to conduct exchanges, I am very willing to share

thoughts with counterparts.

"Thanks."

Q. March 2, 2016, email. "Teacher.

"Because this is an initial contact, the main purpose is

for both parties to understand each other. Since you think it

is not a good fit, we can hold on to the exchange.

"You can tell me your itinerary to China, and I can

arrange time for us to meet. We can communicate and see if

there is room for collaboration.

"If you send me the airline confirmation, I can help you

to resolve the issue.

"Qu Hui."

Let me stop right there and ask you a question about: Do

you understand -- or did you understand when he said "resolve

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LI - DIRECT (Glatfelter)

Mary A. Schweinhagen, RDR, CRR (937) 512-1604

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the issue" what he was referring to?

A. No, I wasn't very clear what he meant by "resolve the

issue."

Q. Okay. If you can continue, sir.

A. Okay. My follow-up with him on March 5, 2016. What I

said, it was, "If it is convenient for you, maybe we can

meet on May 4th or May 5th."

Q. March 22, 2016, email. "Sure, no problem. My phone

number is 13913882316. Call me after you arrive in China. We

can set a time and location.

"Sent from my iPhone."

A. I acknowledged on March 23rd -- March 23, 2016, with

"Thanks."

THE COURT: Have we reached a breaking point?

MS. GLATFELTER: Sure, Your Honor.

THE COURT: We have been at it for a while. We're

going to take a 20-minute break for the jury and all of us.

During the break, jurors, please do not discuss the case

among yourselves or with anyone else. No independent

research. Continue to keep an open mind.

Out of respect for you, we will rise as you leave.

THE COURTROOM DEPUTY: All rise for the jury.

(Jury out at 2:41 p.m.)

THE COURT: The jury's left. 20-minute break until

3 o'clock. We're in recess.

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LI - DIRECT (Glatfelter)

Mary A. Schweinhagen, RDR, CRR (937) 512-1604

100

THE COURTROOM DEPUTY: This court is in recess until

3 o'clock.

(Recess from 2:42 p.m. until 3:00 p.m.)

THE COURT: Please be seated. Thank you.

The witness may retake the witness stand.

THE WITNESS: Thank you.

THE COURT: We're ready for the jury from the

government's perspective?

MS. GLATFELTER: Yes, Your Honor. Thank you.

THE COURT: Defense as well?

MS. TAYLOR: Yes, Your Honor.

THE COURT: Very well. Let's call for the jury.

THE COURTROOM DEPUTY: All rise for the jury.

(Jury in at 3:01 p.m.)

THE COURT: You may all be seated. Thank you. 15

members of the jury have rejoined us.

Are we ready to proceed from the government's

perspective?

MS. GLATFELTER: Yes, we are, Your Honor.

THE COURT: The defense as well?

MS. TAYLOR: Yes, Your Honor. Thank you.

THE COURT: Very well. The witness remains under

oath.

Ms. Glatfelter, you may continue.

MS. GLATFELTER: Thank you, Your Honor.

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LI - DIRECT (Glatfelter)

Mary A. Schweinhagen, RDR, CRR (937) 512-1604

101

BY MS. GLATFELTER:

Q. Mr. Li, before we broke we were reading Government's

Exhibit 92, and I believe we had reached the bottom, which is

my portion, I'll say.

May 5, 2016, WeChat. "Hello, Teacher."

MS. GLATFELTER: And if we could flip to the next

page.

THE WITNESS: The first line appears it's what I

sent after meeting. So I said, "It was nice seeing you,

Minister" -- I would say -- "Cai and a Little Yu. Keep in

touch."

I have to explain a little -- Minister Cai is his job

title.

Little Yu, it means, in Chinese custom, when you call

someone younger, you put "Little" in front of the last name.

BY MS. GLATFELTER:

Q. Okay. And you said this was after your meeting. Are you

referring to your meeting with Mr. Xu -- I'm sorry -- Mr. Qu

Hui?

A. Yes, in hotel lobby.

Q. Okay. And who are the people that you are referencing in

this message?

A. This reference two other person came with Mr. Qu, set

down with me that day.

Q. And so the two individuals, Minister Cai and Little Yu,

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LI - DIRECT (Glatfelter)

Mary A. Schweinhagen, RDR, CRR (937) 512-1604

102

are the two other people that were with him?

A. Correct.

Q. Okay. You had an opportunity to observe them during the

meeting. Did they seem to be equals in terms of their

superiority, or can you explain that to the jury?

A. Yes. To me, Mr. Qu is the superior of three, because

by Chinese custom, the person senior always speaks. The

other people listen.

Q. And did you know the names that you used in this message

because they introduced themselves?

A. I did not know them beforehand, but I believe that's

introducing to me by Mr. Qu.

Q. During the meeting?

A. During the meeting, yes.

Q. I see. The next message, May 5, 2016, WeChat. "Thanks,

Teacher."

The next message, same date. "Teacher, how much is the

plane ticket for your trip back this time? We would like to

keep inviting you to come back, so we can help you pay for the

round-trip tickets."

A. Yeah, to that I replied, "Thanks a lot. Not this

time."

By that, means I do not need to be reimbursed.

Q. Okay. I am going to ask you some additional questions

about that.

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LI - DIRECT (Glatfelter)

Mary A. Schweinhagen, RDR, CRR (937) 512-1604

103

A few messages down, May 5, 2016, WeChat. "No problem.

You are welcome.

The state has specific funds for experts and talents

introduction, so the tickets can be reimbursed."

"Just send me the E-tickets if it's not too much

trouble."

May 9, 2016, WeChat. "Teacher, have you arrived in

Nanjing?"

A. Yes. The following response happened -- occurred when

I was in China. So on May 9, 2016, I was traveling from

Shanghai, the international airport, airport land in

Shanghai. Have to take high-speed train to Nanjing.

So this message, "Not yet. Just got on the high-speed

train," it was when I was on the train.

Q. So the next page, May 9, 2016. "Teacher, would you like

to meet tonight or tomorrow morning?"

"Is 8:30 tomorrow morning convenient for you?"

So let me stop you there and ask you, these

messages occurred after -- did these messages occur after you

met Qu Hui in the hotel?

A. These appear to be before, before the meeting occurred.

When I was in Nanjing, I did arrive Nanjing, after I got

Nanjing, and then he is trying to arrange a time for our

meeting.

Q. Okay. By the date, though, these are May 9, 2016. That

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LI - DIRECT (Glatfelter)

Mary A. Schweinhagen, RDR, CRR (937) 512-1604

104

would have been after the meeting?

I tell you what, sir. I'm going to ask you to -- let's

continue reading a little bit further down the page, and maybe

that will clarify or refresh your memory.

A. Okay.

Q. The last message was May 9, 2016, WeChat. "Is 8:30

tomorrow morning convenient for you?"

A. Can I go back one more page?

Q. Surely.

A. Okay. Move to the next page, please.

So you are correct, this happened after the meeting. I

think he wants to meet again.

Q. After your first meeting?

A. Yes, yeah.

Q. And if you can go ahead and read your responses.

A. My response was, "Sorry, I'm too busy to meet."

"I will definitely contact you again," on the same day,

May 9, 2016.

Q. Let's pause there for a moment.

Did you want to meet with Mr. Qu Hui again?

A. Not really. This is just the custom that you don't

want to decline, all right. It's just a polite way to say I

am really not interested in spending more time with you.

Q. And why weren't you interested in spending more time with

him?

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LI - DIRECT (Glatfelter)

Mary A. Schweinhagen, RDR, CRR (937) 512-1604

105

A. I only get to see my dad for two weeks in a year, so I

really wanted to spend time with my family members, not on

business.

Q. Okay. Anything else?

A. And also I had a feeling that he wasn't really

interested in project management exchange sharing. What he

is looking for is something else that I could not provide.

Q. Did you -- were you able to tell what that something else

was based on your meeting with him in the hotel?

A. My understanding was that he wanted to know the

Internet -- or Internet or information security.

Q. And this is during the time that you were working for

Boeing?

A. Correct.

Q. Let's continue with these messages.

May 9, 2016, WeChat. "No problem. Have a safe trip."

May 12, 2016, WeChat. "Teacher, have you returned to the

U.S.? Please send me the tickets at your convenience. Thank

you."

May 14, 2016, WeChat. "Teacher, have you returned to the

U.S.? Please send me the tickets at your convenience. Thank

you."

May 15, 2016, WeChat. "Teacher, I've already got the

fund from the finance department for the plane tickets of your

last trip, and it's not convenient to return it. Can you

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LI - DIRECT (Glatfelter)

Mary A. Schweinhagen, RDR, CRR (937) 512-1604

106

please send me the E-tickets as soon as possible? I will find

some time to send it to your father and ask him to sign a

receipt. This will be violating the financial regulations if

it takes too long and there would be a bit -- and there would

be a bit of troublesome. Thank you for your understanding."

May 16, 2016. "Teacher, greetings.

"I have already applied funding for the last airfare from

the finance office. It is inconvenient for me to return it.

Please send me the electronic flight ticket confirmation as

soon as possible so I can send money to your father. I would

only need him to issue me a receipt. It is an accounting

violation if we prolong this. It can be troublesome. Hope

you can understand it. Thanks.

"Also, I have sent you a few WeChat messages previously

but I did not receive any response. Is there any problems?

Best wishes. Qu Hui."

A. To which I replied in WeChat -- this is actually in

email, on 17th of May, 2016. I said, "Qu Hui, greetings.

"After returning home last Thursday, I was overwhelmed

by many things and I got behind on my work. In addition,

jet lag played a role. Sorry for the delay in response.

"I was going to write a detailed package and send it to

you along with electronic flight ticket confirmation. But

it looks like you cannot wait much longer. I am sending the

electronic flight ticket confirmation in this email. This

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LI - DIRECT (Glatfelter)

Mary A. Schweinhagen, RDR, CRR (937) 512-1604

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way, I can take my time creating the material.

"I do not use WeChat much. It distracts me. Thank you

very much."

Q. And, Mr. Li, there were several messages leading up to

this one that you didn't respond to. How come you responded

to this message that he sent, this last message?

A. I don't remember the reason, but I feel like after he

sent me so many messages, I feel I need a proper wrap-up

maybe. That's why I was thinking about that time.

Q. What, if any, concerns did you have about him referencing

your father in the email?

MS. TAYLOR: Objection, Your Honor. Leading.

THE COURT: Overruled. Don't lead the witness.

THE WITNESS: Could you repeat the question again?

BY MS. GLATFELTER:

Q. Sure. I said what, if any, concerns did you have

regarding his reference to your father in his email?

A. I did not give it much thought.

Q. Okay.

A. At that time.

Q. The next message response is -- or the next message is

June 29, 2016. "Teacher, greetings.

"A week ago -- a weeks ago I contacted your father as I

was ready to send over the reimbursement for the flight

ticket.

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Mary A. Schweinhagen, RDR, CRR (937) 512-1604

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"However, he said he did not hear you talking about this

matter. For this, I sent you a few messages in WeChat, but

you did not respond.

"At your convenience, please let your father know about

this so I can resolve the issue. Nevertheless, it is

inconvenient for me to hang on to it. Also, if you are done

organizing the material, please send them to me, thanks.

"From the last conversation with your father, he might

have overcomplicated things. What is between us is open

technical exchange. Please do not overanalyze it. Certainly

our collaboration will take into consideration of our thoughts

and feelings.

"Qu Hui."

And, Mr. Li, did you respond to that message?

A. No, I did not.

Q. Okay. And on this last page, do we see additional

messages from Mr. Qu Hui that you did not respond to?

A. No, I did not.

Q. You didn't respond to him after that last email?

A. No.

Q. How come?

A. I don't feel I need to continue this conversation. I

made myself pretty clear. And there is no point to continue

this, spend time on this.

Q. And during this time, 2015 to 2016, you're working at

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LI - DIRECT (Glatfelter)

Mary A. Schweinhagen, RDR, CRR (937) 512-1604

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Boeing aviation?

A. Correct.

Q. Were you working there in any capacity as a designer or

an engineer?

A. No.

Q. What area were you working in?

A. I was working in IT field. Two areas I worked on, like

I said. The first job was on data backup and archive; the

second job is IT project management.

MS. GLATFELTER: Okay. One moment, Your Honor.

THE COURT: Very well.

MS. GLATFELTER: I have no further questions for

this witness. Thank you.

THE COURT: Very well. The attorney for the

defendant has an opportunity to ask questions of the witness.

Cross-examination, counsel?

MS. TAYLOR: Your Honor, may I take a moment with my

colleagues?

THE COURT: Yes.

MS. TAYLOR: Thank you.

(Pause.)

MS. TAYLOR: Your Honor, thank you for the moment.

No cross-examination on behalf of the defense.

THE COURT: Very well. Sir, your testimony is

complete. You are free to go. I want you to be careful out

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LI - DIRECT (Glatfelter)

Mary A. Schweinhagen, RDR, CRR (937) 512-1604

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there in Washington because they have horrible weather.

THE WITNESS: Yes. It was pouring rain yesterday.

Glad it is over. Thank you so much, Your Honor.

THE COURT: Very well.

Where do we stand from the government's perspective?

MR. McKENZIE: Your Honor, the government is ready

to call our next witness, Special Agent Adam James.

THE COURT: Very well. If we could call for the

agent, special agent.

MS. TAYLOR: Your Honor, counsel for --

THE COURT: Yes?

MS. TAYLOR: Counsel for defense is going to change

places at the tables.

THE COURT: Change what?

MS. TAYLOR: Change places at the tables if that's

okay?

THE COURT: Yes.

MS. TAYLOR: Thank you.

THE COURT: If the witness would be willing to

approach, we're going to put you in the witness stand over

here.

If you'd be willing to pause for the oath to tell the

truth. If you'd raise your right hand. Do you solemnly swear

or affirm that your testimony today will be the truth, subject

to penalty of perjury?

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JAMES - DIRECT (McKenzie)

Mary A. Schweinhagen, RDR, CRR (937) 512-1604

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THE WITNESS: I do.

THE COURT: Very well. Once you get seated, get

close to the microphone.

The lawyer for the government may begin with questions.

ADAM ROBERT JAMES, PLAINTIFF WITNESS, SWORN

DIRECT EXAMINATION

BY MR. McKENZIE:

Q. Good afternoon. My name is Matthew McKenzie.

Will you please state your full name and spell your last

name for the record?

A. My name is Adam Robert James, J-A-M-E-S.

Q. By whom are you employed?

A. The FBI.

Q. To which field office are you assigned?

A. I'm assigned to the San Diego field office.

Q. What is your current position within the FBI?

A. I am a special agent.

Q. How long have you been a special agent?

A. I became a special agent on July 5th of 2010.

Q. Do you have a particular focus?

A. Yes. I'm focused on cyber crime investigations.

Q. What types of activities are included in cyber crime?

A. There's various types of cyber crime that the FBI

investigates. It could be ransomware. It could be business

email compromises. But I mainly focus on computer intrusion

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JAMES - DIRECT (McKenzie)

Mary A. Schweinhagen, RDR, CRR (937) 512-1604

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activity.

Q. Has the FBI provided you with any training regarding

computer intrusions and cyber investigations?

A. Yes, it has.

Q. Could you provide the jury with an overview of your

training that was provided by the FBI?

A. Yes. So when you get hired by the FBI, they send you

to the FBI Academy for about five months for general

training. That covers a little bit of cyber crime training,

but very little.

When you get assigned to a cyber squad once you get out

of the academy, they send you to additional training. So

the first training I took was a two-week general cyber

investigation course where they kind of tell you here's all

the elements of the FBI that does cyber crime

investigations, and then they give you kind of like a brief

week-long course in cyber investigations.

And then since then I have taken over 400 hours of

training both online and in person. That has included

everything from interview and interrogation techniques;

hacker tactics, techniques, and procedures; reverse

engineering malware; and computer forensics; and intrusion

investigations.

Q. We'll come back and define some of those terms in a

moment. But prior to joining the FBI, where did you work?

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A. Immediately prior to joining the FBI, I worked for a

computer security consulting company in Omaha, Nebraska.

Q. And what were some of your duties and responsibilities?

A. My primary duty immediately before joining the FBI was

computer forensics and incident response. Prior to that I

did some third-party risk assessments and policy writing for

various companies.

Q. Did you ever -- in that capacity as a consultant, did you

ever contract with the U.S. government?

A. I took a -- about a nine-month leave of absence from my

job with the consulting company, and I did media forensics

for a U.S. military in Iraq.

Q. Will you just explain to the jury in basic terms what you

did over in Iraq?

A. Yeah. So basically what my job was, is when the

military would go out and detain suspected terrorists or

insurgents, they would take the person and all of their

papers, electronic devices, computers, all that type of

stuff. They would bring them back to be reviewed and

interrogated. So while the military was interrogating the

suspect, my job would be to go through all of their

electronic media and pull off whatever information was

available.

Q. What was your first job in information technology --

A. My first --

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JAMES - DIRECT (McKenzie)

Mary A. Schweinhagen, RDR, CRR (937) 512-1604

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Q. -- after you graduated?

A. My first job in information technology, I was a

business analyst at Mutual of Omaha. And I worked up

through several jobs at Mutual of Omaha, from a business

analyst to a computer programmer, and then ultimately I was

a security analyst at Mutual of Omaha.

Q. Did you earn a bachelor's degree?

A. I did.

Q. From which institution did you earn that degree?

A. The University of Nebraska at Omaha.

Q. When did you earn the degree?

A. In 2003.

Q. What was the subject?

A. Management information systems.

Q. What is information systems?

A. Information systems is a, I guess a generic term for

computers.

Q. After earning your bachelor's degree, did you go on to

earn a master's degree?

A. I did.

Q. Where did you earn this degree?

A. Also from the University of Nebraska at Omaha.

Q. And what was the subject of your degree?

A. Management information systems.

Q. And when did you earn it?

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A. In 2005.

Q. In addition to your education and work experience, have

you had the occasion to earn professional certifications?

A. I have.

Q. Could you explain to the jury some of the certifications

that you've earned and held?

A. Yes. So probably the biggest certification I've held

was I held a CISP, which is a very broad industry standard

certification for information security. And I've also held

multiple more specific certifications, several related to

computer forensics, one related to reverse engineering

malware, one related to computer networking devices, and,

you know, several other more generic ones.

Q. Through your education, your work experience with the FBI

and also prior to the FBI, have you become familiar with the

term "digital media" as it pertains to cyber investigations?

A. Yes, I am.

Q. Will you please explain to the jury what "digital media"

means and give some common examples?

A. Okay. So digital media is going to be anything that

can store data in a binary format or in a data format used

by computers. And that could include a computer, your cell

phone, the MMC card or the multimedia card you put into your

camera, a CD. It could be a, you know, electronic music

device. All of those would be considered digital media.

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Mary A. Schweinhagen, RDR, CRR (937) 512-1604

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Q. Are you familiar with the term "forensic examination" as

it pertains to digital media?

A. I am.

Q. Will you please provide a basic definition of what this

means, "forensic examination"?

A. Yes. So for -- a forensic examination of digital media

is analyzing a piece of digital media -- so it could be a

computer, cell phone, anything -- in a manner which can be

replicated and verified by another person.

Q. Including your work in private industry, including your

time in Iraq and your time with the FBI, approximately how

many forensic examinations have you conducted?

A. I've performed over 100 examinations of digital media.

Q. And approximately how many hours of training have you

received in this field?

A. In the field specific of digital media examinations

or --

Q. Yeah.

A. I would say over a hundred hours of training.

Q. Will you please explain to the jury the basic steps in

conducting a forensic examination of digital media?

A. Okay. So the first basic step that's going to be

conducted when you are analyzing digital media is you are

going to make a copy of the original media. We call that a

forensic image. And the reason in which you do that is,

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JAMES - DIRECT (McKenzie)

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again, as I stated, computer forensics is conducting an

analysis in a way that's repeatable and able to be verified.

So when I take a forensic copy, I'm going to try to

work off of something that's not the original media in

case -- so that we limit or minimize the changes that occur

to the original evidence. And then we run a set of

standardized tools that will extract evidence from the

specific media type for the investigation that is being

conducted.

Q. And what types of files are you looking for during a

forensic examination of a hard drive in a computer intrusion

case?

A. So in a computer intrusion case we would generally be

looking for two general types of files. One is malicious

tools, so that could be malware or any additional file used

by the computer intruders. And then we are also looking for

files which contain information about how the malware was

executed on the system.

Q. So I think to back up and define computer intrusion -- I

should have done that earlier. What is a computer intrusion?

A. A computer intrusion is when somebody accesses a

computer without authorization or exceeds their

authorization.

Q. And I heard the word "malware."

A. Um-hmm.

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Q. What is malware?

A. Malware is any code that is placed on a computer that

does something that the user doesn't want their computer to

do. So there's a lot of different types of malware.

Q. Are there common names that people use to refer to

malware?

A. Yes.

Q. What are some of those common names?

A. So a common term would be a computer virus, would be

what most people think about when they think of malware.

Q. Now, is there just one thing called malware, or are there

many types of malware?

A. There are many types of malware.

Q. Are you familiar with the term "remote access trojan"?

A. I am.

Q. Is that also referred to as a RAT?

A. It can be.

Q. Will you please explain to the jury what a remote access

trojan is?

A. A remote access trojan is a program on a computer that

provides remote access to the computer to a user that the

owner of the computer would prefer not to have access.

There are legitimate remote access tools, which especially

in current times with remote work you see commonly. But

what sets a RAT, or a remote access trojan, apart is that

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JAMES - DIRECT (McKenzie)

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the user or owner of the computer does not intend it to be

there.

Q. In general, how does a RAT or how does a remote access

trojan work?

A. There's two general ways a remote access trojan can

work. The first way is it can be installed on a computer

and it can open up the computer to access remotely on an

inbound connection from another location. So think of that

as it opens up the door. As long as somebody can see that

the door is open, they can walk in.

The other manner in which a remote access trojan can

operate is it can get installed on the computer and it can

initiate a connection outbound to some place on the Internet

to let the remote user or the remote intruder know that it's

there to be used.

Q. Is there a name for that process of the program reaching

out to a remote user?

A. Yes. We generally call that a beacon.

Q. Now, is there only one remote access trojan or are there

multiple versions of remote access trojan?

A. There are many versions of remote access trojans.

Q. Are you familiar with the term "Sakula"?

A. I am.

Q. What is Sakula?

A. Sakula is a specific type of remote access trojan.

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JAMES - DIRECT (McKenzie)

Mary A. Schweinhagen, RDR, CRR (937) 512-1604

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Q. And just for the court reporter, it's S-A-K-U-L-A.

Will you explain to the jury how Sakula works?

A. Yeah. Sakula is a fairly basic remote access trojan.

So when it gets installed on a user's computer, it will

reach out to somewhere on the Internet with a beacon, and it

has a very specific beacon format. So there is a protocol

it uses to communicate with its controller on the Internet.

And what it allows the remote user to do is it can upload

files, download files, and run arbitrary commands on the

computer. It also can be told to uninstall itself.

Q. Does Sakula -- what, if any, remote access or control

does Sakula give somebody of a computer on which it is

installed?

A. So like I said before, they can run whatever commands

they want to at the command line of the system. They also

can upload and download files.

Q. How do you distinguish Sakula from another remote access

trojan?

A. We generally distinguish remote access trojans based on

two general things. One is the control that's present on

the disk; and the other thing, which is more pertinent to

this case, is the communication format that it uses when it

beacons.

Q. What does that mean in general terms, the communication

format it uses to beacon?

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JAMES - DIRECT (McKenzie)

Mary A. Schweinhagen, RDR, CRR (937) 512-1604

121

A. We call that a communication protocol. So what a

communication protocol is, is the way two things

communicate. In this case it's on the Internet, but it can

be in your normal, everyday life.

So a good example of a communication protocol would be

if you want to make a phone call to somebody else in the

U.S., you pick up the phone, you dial the number that you

want to call. You start to hear it ring. So that's the

first part of the protocol. The other person hears it ring

on their end, and they pick up the phone. When they pick up

the phone -- in my case I say, "Hello. This is Adam." Then

you know that you have established a communication that is

an English phone call.

Q. Are you familiar with the term "plugX."

A. I am.

Q. What is plugX?

A. PlugX is a variant of a remote access trojan.

Q. In general terms, how does plugX work?

A. PlugX works very similar to Sakula. It gets installed

on a computer, and it will initiate a beacon outbound to a

predefined location on the Internet.

Q. Does plugX have a different protocol than Sakula?

A. It does.

Q. Is the ultimate affect of providing remote access

similar, though?

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JAMES - DIRECT (McKenzie)

Mary A. Schweinhagen, RDR, CRR (937) 512-1604

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A. It is similar.

Q. Just one more term I'd like to loop back to. Are you

familiar with the phrase "executable file"?

A. I am.

Q. Could you provide a basic definition of what this term

means and provide a couple examples of what are executable

files?

A. An executable file is a program that can be run on a

computer. So a good example of an executable file is if you

go to your computer or your phone or whatever you use to

browse the Internet and you click on the icon that opens up

a web browser, what the computer in the background is doing

is opening up an executable file that causes the browser to

be displayed to you, which then allows you to be connected

to the Internet.

Q. I'd like to direct your attention now to October of 2019.

Did there come a time that you conducted a forensic

examination of a hard drive?

A. Yes, I did.

Q. Who provided you with the hard drive?

A. The hard drive was provided by DGSI.

Q. What is DGSI?

A. DGSI is roughly equivalent to the domestic

investigation and intelligence arm of the French government

as it relates to cyber matters.

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JAMES - DIRECT (McKenzie)

Mary A. Schweinhagen, RDR, CRR (937) 512-1604

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Q. Does it have a law enforcement component to it?

A. Yes, it does.

Q. And does the FBI and DGSI have a law enforcement

relationship?

A. We do.

Q. And as a result of this relationship, did they share this

computer with you?

A. Yes.

Q. Did you then conduct a forensic examination of the

computer -- or of the hard drive? Excuse me.

A. Yes, I did.

Q. As part of that examination, were you able to determine

what computer system and network the hard drive belonged to?

A. Yes.

Q. And what company, if any, did the hard drive belong to?

A. So the company was registered -- sorry. The hard drive

was registered to Snecma.

Q. And what is Snecma?

A. Snecma is a subsidiary of Safran Group.

Q. And where is Safran located?

A. Safran is headquartered in France.

Q. And as part of your examination of the hard drive, were

you able to identify a user profile?

A. Yes, I was.

Q. Were you able to view emails and other documents?

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JAMES - DIRECT (McKenzie)

Mary A. Schweinhagen, RDR, CRR (937) 512-1604

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A. Yes, I was.

Q. Were you able to identify a particular user of that hard

drive as a result of your analysis?

A. Yes.

Q. Was that person Frederic Hascoet?

A. It was.

Q. Will you please provide the jury with an overview of how

you conducted the forensic examination of this hard drive?

A. Yes. So we first took a forensic image of the hard

drive, and then I conducted analysis against the forensic

image. The first step that I did is I created a timeline of

activities that were on the system, and then I reviewed the

timeline to see if there was any indication of a computer

intrusion.

Q. As a result of your analysis, what, if any, malware did

you find?

A. On the hard drive, I found one variant of Sakula

malware and two variants of plugX.

Q. Were you able to determine when these malware programs

were installed on the hard drive?

A. Yes.

Q. I'll come -- I'll come back to that.

I'd like to start with a discussion of Sakula. Was there

just one file associated with Sakula or were there multiple

files associated with this program?

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JAMES - DIRECT (McKenzie)

Mary A. Schweinhagen, RDR, CRR (937) 512-1604

125

A. For Sakula, there was two files still on disk that were

related to Sakula.

Q. Were you able to determine what Sakula was set up to do?

A. Yes, I was.

Q. Will you please explain that to the jury?

A. The Sakula variant that was located on the hard drive I

analyzed was set up to initiate beacons to two domains on

the Internet.

Q. What is a domain?

A. A domain is a shortened version of domain name. So a

domain name is how normal people access locations on the

Internet. So computers communicate via IP addresses. So

think of an IP address of a computer as similar to your

telephone number.

A domain name would be equivalent to setting up a

contact in your phone to link a phone number to a name that

you remember. So like if I want to go to www.fbi.gov,

that's what I type in my web browser. But on the back end,

the domain name system is doing the correlation between

www.fbi.gov and an IP address that is assigned to that

domain.

Q. Quickly, for the IP address, does the "IP" stand for

Internet protocol?

A. It does.

Q. Is it a series of numbers and periods?

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JAMES - DIRECT (McKenzie)

Mary A. Schweinhagen, RDR, CRR (937) 512-1604

126

A. Essentially, yes.

Q. Okay.

THE COURT: Have we reached an opportunity where we

could break?

MR. McKENZIE: Of course, Your Honor.

THE COURT: Very well. We're going to take a

20-minute break and going to come back at 4. And it would

appear you are going to survive. During the break, please

take a break. Don't discuss the case among yourselves or with

anyone else. No independent research. Continue to keep an

open mind.

Out of respect for you, we will rise as you leave.

THE COURTROOM DEPUTY: All rise for the jury.

(Jury out at 3:41 p.m.)

THE COURT: The jury's left the room. The door is

closed.

We're going to recess till 4. It's almost 20 minutes.

And then when we come back at 4, what's the likelihood that

the government will finish direct?

MR. McKENZIE: Zero percent, Your Honor.

THE COURT: Zero percent.

MR. McKENZIE: Zero percent.

THE COURT: So he is not going home to San Diego

tonight.

MR. McKENZIE: Not tonight, Your Honor.

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JAMES - DIRECT (McKenzie)

Mary A. Schweinhagen, RDR, CRR (937) 512-1604

127

THE COURT: We are in recess until 4. Hoping to

break at 4:30.

THE COURTROOM DEPUTY: All rise. We are in recess

until 4 p.m.

(Recess from 3:43 p.m. until 3:59 p.m.)

THE COURT: Back on the record, about to get the

jury.

Mr. McKenzie, have the odds changed?

MR. McKENZIE: You know, I took another look at my

outline, and I bump up to maybe five percent. I'm feeling a

little more bullish.

THE COURT: Let the record reflect that.

Are we ready for the jury from the government's

perspective?

MR. McKENZIE: Yes, Your Honor.

THE COURT: And the defense?

MS. TAYLOR: Yes, Your Honor.

THE COURT: Very well. Let's call for the jury.

We need to remember we have an interpreter at the end of

a long day, so if we can all try and talk slowly, that will

accommodate her.

THE COURTROOM DEPUTY: All rise for the jury.

(Jury in at 4:01 p.m.)

THE COURT: You may all be seated. Thank you.

15 jurors have returned from a break. We will continue

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JAMES - DIRECT (McKenzie)

Mary A. Schweinhagen, RDR, CRR (937) 512-1604

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hearing testimony from this witness, who remains under oath.

The prosecutor may continue.

BY MR. McKENZIE:

Q. Before the break, we were defining what a domain name is.

And prior to that, you testified about Sakula beaconing to a

domain name.

How many domains, if any, did the Sakula malware beacon

to?

A. It was configured to beacon to two domain names.

Q. And were there particular domain names that the malware

beaconed to?

A. Yes, there were.

Q. Do you remember those domain names?

A. I do.

Q. What was the first domain it beaconed to?

A. The first domain was oa.ameteksen.com.

Q. Are you familiar with a company called Ametek Sensors?

A. I am.

Q. What is Ametek Sensors?

A. Ametek Sensors is a subsidiary of a larger company

named Ametek, which is a part supplier for Snecma.

Q. And by part supplier, is that like airline parts?

A. Yes.

Q. Does Ametek Sensors have a website?

A. Yes, they do.

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JAMES - DIRECT (McKenzie)

Mary A. Schweinhagen, RDR, CRR (937) 512-1604

129

Q. Have you visited that website?

A. I did at the time.

Q. Are you familiar with the term "doppelganger domain"?

A. I am.

Q. Would you please explain to the jury what a doppelganger

domain is?

A. Doppelganger domain is a domain name that's intended to

look similar to a legitimate company's domain but it's not

owned by the legitimate company.

Q. And how are doppelganger domains used in computer

intrusions and in cyber investigations?

A. There are several ways that doppelganger domains can be

used in computer intrusion activity. One good example is if

I wanted to click on something that has malicious -- some

kind of malicious attachment. If I send you a domain name

that is maybe one letter off of something you're likely to

go to, it's going to be more likely to entice you to click

on that link and download the malware.

Another way, which is more pertinent to this instance,

is when a company has any kind of computer on their internal

network trying to reach out to something on the Internet,

they monitor those systems to make sure they are --

generally their users are going to places they should be.

And so if you create a doppelganger domain and put it in

malware, when it beacons out to the Internet it looks like

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JAMES - DIRECT (McKenzie)

Mary A. Schweinhagen, RDR, CRR (937) 512-1604

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more legitimate traffic.

Q. Did you investigate or look into oa.ameteksen.com?

A. Yes, I did.

Q. Is that a web domain name owned by Ametek Sensors?

A. It is not.

Q. Now, you mentioned that the Sakula malware beaconed to a

second domain. Will you please share that second domain with

the jury?

A. The second domain that it was configured to beacon to

was secure.safran-group.com.

Q. Are you familiar with Safran Group, the company?

A. I am.

Q. Did you visit secure.safran-group.com?

A. I did not directly visit that domain.

Q. Are you aware if safran-group.com is a legitimate domain

owned by Safran, the company?

A. It is owned by Safran, the company.

Q. Backing up to your forensic analysis. Were you able to

determine if Sakula actually did beacon to these domains?

A. I was able to determine that.

Q. And how do you know?

A. There was evidence located on the hard drive of

outbound connections to both of those domains in the format

of a Sakula beacon.

Q. Now, you mentioned earlier that there were more than one

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JAMES - DIRECT (McKenzie)

Mary A. Schweinhagen, RDR, CRR (937) 512-1604

131

file -- that there was more than one file associated with this

Sakula malware. Did any of those files have visible

interfaces that you could interact with and see on the screen

of the computer?

A. Yes, one of them did.

Q. In which language was that program?

A. It was in the Chinese language.

Q. Were you able to determine when the Sakula malware was

installed on the hard drive?

A. I was.

Q. And what date was the malware installed on the hard

drive?

A. January 25th of 2014.

Q. How do you know it was January 25th of 2014?

A. Because evidence associated with the file, like the

created date indicated it was that date.

Q. What, if anything significant, happened with the hard

drive prior to Sakula being installed on the computer? What,

if anything, from the log?

A. There was several things that happened. A USB device

was inserted into the computer immediately before the

installation.

Q. What is a USB drive?

A. A USB device is a piece of removable media that is

generally used by people to store files to transfer between

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JAMES - DIRECT (McKenzie)

Mary A. Schweinhagen, RDR, CRR (937) 512-1604

132

computers.

Q. How do you know that a USB drive was installed into the

computer before the Sakula malware was installed?

A. So when a user takes actions on a computer, the

operating system of that computer records information about

the actions that were taken. Generally, these are being

recorded to improve the user experience on the computer.

And so when you insert a USB device into a computer, the

computer records information about that USB device. So if

you plug the same one in again in the future, your user

experience is going to be as close to as possible as the

first time you inserted it.

Q. On what date was the USB drive installed into the hard

drive?

A. It was inserted into the computer on --

Q. Into the computer. I'm sorry.

A. -- on January the 25th, 2014.

Q. I'd like to take a step back from your forensic

examination for a moment.

As part of your investigation, did you review text

messages sent and received by the defendant?

A. I did.

MR. McKENZIE: Before we get to those, Your Honor, I

ask that we publish to the jury Government's Exhibit 21b,

which is already in evidence, and I ask that we turn to page

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Mary A. Schweinhagen, RDR, CRR (937) 512-1604

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1.

THE COURT: Very well.

BY MR. McKENZIE:

Q. Directing your attention to page 1, could you please read

the name listed in the top left corner?

A. Xu Yanjun.

Q. Moving to the middle of the page, can you read what is

written under "Current Post"?

A. "Deputy division director at Sixth Bureau of Jiangsu

Province Ministry of State Security."

Q. I'd like to direct your attention now to page 2. And

specifically to the job posting from August 2010 to November

2014. Could you please read that job posting?

A. "Section chief at Second Section of Fourth Bureau of

Jiangsu Ministry of State Security, the agency renamed to

the Sixth Bureau in December, 2013."

THE COURT: Sir, you are doing great. Can you keep

your voice up, please. A couple old men in the back row

having trouble hearing you.

THE WITNESS: Do you want me to read it again?

THE COURT: No.

BY MR. McKENZIE:

Q. No.

MR. McKENZIE: Your Honor, may we now publish what

is in evidence as Government's Exhibit 110, and direct the

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JAMES - DIRECT (McKenzie)

Mary A. Schweinhagen, RDR, CRR (937) 512-1604

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witness's attention to page 1?

THE COURT: Yes.

BY MR. McKENZIE:

Q. Looking at the key at the very, very top, in what color

are the messages sent by Xu Yanjun?

A. Blue.

Q. Will you please read the first message sent on November

19, 2013?

A. Xu Yanjun contacted Tian Xi. He said, "On what date

does the Frenchman arrive? Is it possible to make

arrangements for him to meet with Teacher Wu Tieying and I

in Suzhou? Under the name of Nanjing University of

Aeronautics and Astronautics in the evening."

Q. In what country is Safran located?

A. They are located in France.

Q. Who sent this message that you just read?

A. Xu Yanjun.

Q. And who received the message?

A. Tian Xi.

MR. McKENZIE: Your Honor, I ask that we now show

the witness what is in evidence as Government's Exhibit 111.

And I ask that we direct the -- or excuse me -- publish to the

jury 111 and direct the witness's attention to page 6.

THE COURT: Yes.

BY MR. McKENZIE:

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Mary A. Schweinhagen, RDR, CRR (937) 512-1604

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Q. I am showing you what is in evidence as Government's 111.

Are these business records from Safran?

A. Yes, it is.

Q. Directing your attention to the -- the top of the page,

who is the sender of this letter?

A. Safran Aircraft Engines Suzhou Company, Limited.

Q. Turning your attention to the first paragraph of the

column on the right. Who is the recipient of this letter?

A. Tian Xi.

Q. About midway through there is a title. Will you please

read the title of this letter?

A. "Position of Manufacturing Engineer."

Q. Under "Re:" -- do you see where it says "Re: Termination

Letter"?

A. Oh, yes.

Q. And then directing your attention to the first full

paragraph, does it list Tian Xi's position as manufacturing

engineer?

A. It does.

Q. We'll return to this exhibit later. I would like to

please go back to Government's 110, page 1.

I will read the responses from Tian Xi, and you please

read the messages for Xu Yanjun.

Tian responded, "Next Monday. I'll be here with another

Frenchman that frequently comes to Suzhou. I think they will

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JAMES - DIRECT (McKenzie)

Mary A. Schweinhagen, RDR, CRR (937) 512-1604

136

be together all the time. It's not good to talk to both of

them. I will [mention] it to him."

"Mention it to him and see what reaction he has."

A. Xu Yanjun then replies, "Good, thanks."

Q. Moving to November 25, 2013, will you again read the

messages from Xu Yanjun, and I will read the messages from

Tian Xi.

A. "Do you have any knowledge of the company Firth Rixon

Company?"

Q. "The Suzhou Company isn't far from us but I've no

knowledge of it."

A. "Are those two Frenchmen arriving today? Are they

going to Shanghai together on the weekend?"

Q. "Yes."

A. "What's the other Frenchman's name? What position does

he hold? Is it his first time here? Will come often in the

future? Are you familiar with him?"

Q. "Both come often. One has been here ten times or so this

year. The other's office is next door. First time coming

over."

A. "Do you have their business cards? If not, can you get

them?"

Q. "I have one. Will ask the other one."

A. "Okay. Please help me to get the information. I'm

sending what I need to your email. Thanks."

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JAMES - DIRECT (McKenzie)

Mary A. Schweinhagen, RDR, CRR (937) 512-1604

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Q. "Got it."

A. "Email sent. Please check."

Q. "Okay."

Will you please read the message from November 26, 2013?

A. "When is it convenient for you to talk on the phone?"

Q. Will you please read the last message on this page from

November 27, 2013?

A. "I'll bring the horse to you tonight. Can you take the

Frenchman out for dinner tonight? I'll pretend I bump into

you at the restaurant to say hello. This way we don't need

to meet in Shanghai."

Q. Who sent that message?

A. Xu Yanjun.

Q. To whom did he send it?

A. Tian Xi.

Q. What does the phrase "horse" mean in cyber

investigations?

A. Remote access trojan.

Q. Where does the horse -- how does trojan derive -- let me

rephrase. How do you get "horse" from the phrase "trojan"?

A. Yes. So the name "remote access trojan" in computer

security is taken from the old Greek mythology of the trojan

horse. So in that story in Greek mythology the Greeks built

a trojan horse. They enticed the trojans to bring it inside

their city, and then it allowed -- you know, some soldiers

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JAMES - DIRECT (McKenzie)

Mary A. Schweinhagen, RDR, CRR (937) 512-1604

138

got out and opened the gates to allow the Greek Army in.

And so that's similar to a piece of malware being

installed on your computer and then allowing your remote

user to access it, similar to how it was used Greek

mythology.

Q. Is a remote access trojan a type of trojan horse?

A. It is.

Q. Is Sakula a type of trojan horse?

A. It is.

Q. And remind me, where is Safran located?

A. It's headquartered in France.

MR. McKENZIE: Could we please see page 2 of Exhibit

110.

BY MR. McKENZIE:

Q. I'd like to continue reading the messages from November

27th. I will read Tian Xi.

He responded, "I will find out if they have other

arrangements."

A. "Good. Is tonight on?"

Q. "No."

A. "I'm on the train. Be in Suzhou around five."

"Best to have dinner arrangement for tonight. If not,

I'll stay at the hotel where they stay and then you can say

we'll have breakfast with them tomorrow morning and can go

to work together. This way I can also meet them."

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JAMES - DIRECT (McKenzie)

Mary A. Schweinhagen, RDR, CRR (937) 512-1604

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"Most important is to meet them face to face."

Q. "Got it. They'll have a telephone conference call this

afternoon with France. I am discussing with them the matter

of having dinner tonight."

I'd like to move on to the next set of messages.

"It's possible they don't get off work until rather

late."

A. "Okay."

"It's tough."

"If you're successful in arranging a meal, where would

it be? I'll soon be in Suzhou."

"I can wait for you there first."

"I'm in a taxi, first heading to Yinxiang City."

Q. "Let's meet in Yinxizng City. They're having a telephone

conference meeting and will be late."

A. "Good."

Q. "They are going straight to eat at the hotel today."

A. "I am here."

"I'm on the fourth floor, Dayu. Waiting for you at the

booth seat in the back."

Q. "Haven't left work yet. Wait an hour for me."

A. "No worry, this is a buffet. I can wait."

"Which hotel are they staying at?"

Q. "Crowne Plaza."

A. "I've arrived."

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JAMES - DIRECT (McKenzie)

Mary A. Schweinhagen, RDR, CRR (937) 512-1604

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Q. Let's continue to read the messages from November 29,

2013.

A. "No chance these two days?"

Q. "Not yet. I'll pay attention."

A. "Good."

MR. McKENZIE: Can we turn to the next page, please.

BY MR. McKENZIE:

Q. Will you please read the first message from December 6,

2013?

A. "Horse hasn't been planted."

Q. Who sent that message?

A. Xu Yanjun.

Q. To whom did he send it?

A. Tian Xi.

Q. In the context of cyber investigations, what does it mean

to plant a horse?

A. To install a remote access trojan.

Q. Let's continue reading the messages.

"Not yet. I'll replay your email this weekend."

A. "Good."

Q. And let's continue on to December 9, 2013.

A. "Have you sent the email to me?"

Q. "Will send tonight, sorry about that."

A. "It's nothing. Ho, ho."

Q. And we'll continue on to the 26th of December.

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JAMES - DIRECT (McKenzie)

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141

A. "That old man came over this time but still can't find

an opportunity?"

Q. "No. Will notify you when it's planted."

Again, what does "planted" mean in this context?

A. To install a remote access trojan.

Q. Directing your attention to the first message of January

16, 2014. Will you please read just the first message?

A. "Little Gu, will you be in Suzhou tomorrow?"

Q. Who sent that message?

A. Xu Yanjun.

Q. And who received the message?

A. Gu Gen.

MR. McKENZIE: Your Honor, at this time I ask

permission to publish to the jury what is in evidence as

Government's 111 and show the jury page 1.

THE COURT: Yes, it's in evidence. I thought we

were just looking at that.

MR. McKENZIE: Yes.

THE COURT: Okay. Page 1.

BY MR. McKENZIE:

Q. Directing your attention to the top left of the page,

what is listed under "Name"?

A. Gu Gen.

Q. Near the bottom of the screen that's being displayed

right now, will you please read what it is in the box next to

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JAMES - DIRECT (McKenzie)

Mary A. Schweinhagen, RDR, CRR (937) 512-1604

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"Position"?

A. "Senior IT infrastructure manager and information

security officer."

Q. Directing your attention to the bottom of the page, which

will require a scroll down, will you please read who is listed

as the employer where we have that stamp?

A. It says, "Safran Beijing Enterprise Management Company

Limited, Suzhou Branch."

Q. All right.

MR. McKENZIE: Your Honor, I ask to return to

Government's 110, page 3, and publish that now to the jury.

THE COURT: Yes.

MR. McKENZIE: And could we scroll down now to the

messages on January 16th.

BY MR. McKENZIE:

Q. I will read the Gu Gen response.

"Yes."

A. "I may go to Suzhou tomorrow. Let's meet if you are

available."

Q. "Okay."

Can we please read the first set of messages on January

17, 2014? And we'll stop when we get to 11:07 a.m.

A. Okay.

"Let's meet in the evening at Yinxiangcheng."

"What time do you prefer?"

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JAMES - DIRECT (McKenzie)

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Q. Gu Gen replied, "I should be able to get there around 6."

A. "Okay."

"Little Gu, my schedule changed. I may arrive in

Suzhou late. Shall we meet at 8 instead? Still in 'Tea and

Seat' in Yinxiangcheng. Let's just have a chat instead of

dinner. What do you think?"

"Sorry about that."

Q. "8 o'clock is a little bit too late. What about we do a

phone chat instead?"

A. "It won't take long. 30 minutes will do. I will

arrive in Suzhou around 7. I can be there by 7:30 at the

earliest."

Q. "Okay."

A. "I got on an earlier train. Will arrive at

Yinxiangcheng in 30 minutes."

MR. McKENZIE: Can we please go to page 4.

BY MR. McKENZIE:

Q. "Okay. I'm on my way."

A. "I have arrived."

Q. "Will be there soon."

A. "No hurry."

Q. Let's -- let's stop right there.

I'm going to direct your attention to just the next

message. Will you please read that message?

A. "I just met with Little Gu and he said Safran cautioned

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JAMES - DIRECT (McKenzie)

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people were posing as company leadership sending out

letters. Did you all do that?"

Q. Who sent that message?

A. Xu Yanjun.

Q. To whom did he send it?

A. Chai Meng.

MR. McKENZIE: Your Honor, I ask that we publish to

the jury what is in evidence as Government's 39b and direct

their attention to page 1.

THE COURT: Yes.

BY MR. McKENZIE:

Q. Directing your attention to the fourth message sent on

the right there. Is that the message that you just read?

A. That is what I just read.

Q. And is the recipient there on the left Chai Meng?

A. Yes, it is.

MR. McKENZIE: Your Honor, I'd like to return now to

the Government's Exhibit 110, where we left off.

THE COURT: Very well.

MR. McKENZIE: Page 4? Page 3. I apologize. With

the Chai Meng. No, page 4. On page 4.

BY MR. McKENZIE:

Q. And I will read Chai Meng's response.

"We pretended to be the webmaster sending out the letter

but not posing as leadership. It's unknown how many want to

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JAMES - DIRECT (McKenzie)

Mary A. Schweinhagen, RDR, CRR (937) 512-1604

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engage Safran each day."

A. "How is it that you all didn't bother them by

cautioning? I just stated that it was you that had done

it."

Q. "Gu believed we did it?"

A. "No doubt."

Q. Are you familiar with the term "phishing," spelled

P-H-I-S-H-I-N-G, in the context of cyber intrusions?

A. I am.

Q. Will you explain to the jury what phishing is?

A. Phishing is when you send an email to somebody that

looks like an email that they would get from a person that

they would expect to get an email from, but what you do is

you embed some kind of either malicious link or you add a

malicious attachment that if they click on it or open the

attachment, it will compromise their computer and give you

access to it.

Q. What stands out to you about this exchange that we just

read?

A. What stands out to me most is that Gu had told them

that Safran had cautioned people, that people were posing as

the leadership to send out letters, which could also be

emails.

Q. I'd like to pause from reading these messages for a

moment and return to your analysis of the computer.

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JAMES - DIRECT (McKenzie)

Mary A. Schweinhagen, RDR, CRR (937) 512-1604

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On which date was the Sakula malware you found installed

on the computer?

A. January 25th of 2014.

Q. On which date was the USB drive installed on the

computer?

A. It was inserted into the computer on January 25, 2014.

Q. Returning to the Government's Exhibit 110, I would like

to begin reading the messages from January 25, 2014. Is this

the same day that the malware was installed?

A. It is.

Q. Will you please read, even though it's in green, but will

you please read the first message from January 25, 2014?

A. "The horse is planted this morning."

Q. Will you please remind the jury what it means to plant a

horse?

A. To install a remote access trojan.

Q. Who sent that message?

A. Tian Xi.

Q. To whom did he send it?

A. Xu Yanjun.

Q. Will you please read just the defendant's response?

A. "Good."

Q. Now, the next message on the screen, who sent that

message?

A. Xu Yanjun.

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JAMES - DIRECT (McKenzie)

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Q. To whom did he send it.

A. Chai Meng.

Q. What did the defendant tell Chai Meng?

A. "I have reported the Suzhou incident to Zha, and I will

start my vacation today. Please direct any inquiries or

reports to Chen. Thanks."

Q. I will now read Chai Meng's response.

"Okay. A device with a Nanjing IP address is now online.

I'm taking a look at."

Will you please remind the jury what an IP address is?

A. An IP address is how a device that's on the Internet is

communicated with. So it's the address at which that device

is located.

Q. What does it mean to have a Nanjing IP address?

A. There are ways to geolocate, so to determine where a

physical computer is, based on the IP address. So in this

instance, they indicate that the IP address is geolocating

to Nanjing.

Q. In the context of remote access trojans in general and

Sakula in particular, what does it mean to be online?

A. To be online for remote access trojan means that the

beacon has been received by a controller that is controlled

by the IP intruders.

Q. Based on your review of the Sakula malware, does that

program allow a user to take a look at the computer?

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JAMES - DIRECT (McKenzie)

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A. Yes, it would allow them to access the computer.

Q. Will you please read the next message?

A. "I saw this person's device, but his IP shows Nanjing.

Is that person in Nanjing?"

Q. Who sent that message?

A. Xu Yanjun.

Q. To whom did he send it?

A. Tian Xi.

Q. And how did Tian Xi respond?

A. "No, he is in Suzhou."

Q. Directing your attention now to January 26, 2014,

messages, will you please read the first message that was

sent?

A. "Destroy the horse."

Q. Who sent that message?

A. Xu Yanjun.

Q. To whom did he send it?

A. Tian Xi.

Q. Did Tian Xi reply, "Acknowledged"?

A. He did.

THE COURT: We are past 4:30. Are we at a good

break point?

MR. McKENZIE: As good as any, Your Honor.

Actually, you know what? If I can ask two more

questions, we will be at an even better break point.

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JAMES - DIRECT (McKenzie)

Mary A. Schweinhagen, RDR, CRR (937) 512-1604

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THE COURT: I'll count them. Go ahead.

BY MR. McKENZIE:

Q. Question 1: Based on your review, your forensic review

of the computer, was the Sakula malware altered on January 26,

2014?

A. It was not.

Q. In this context, what does "destroy the horse" mean?

A. In this context, it could mean to either remove the

malware from the compromised computer or to destroy the

device that the horse was originally located on.

MR. McKENZIE: I'm a man of my word, Your Honor. I

will pause questioning until tomorrow.

THE COURT: Let the record reflect that.

Ladies and gentlemen of the jury, you have done a good

job today. I've been watching you. You're taking notes.

You're focused. You're working hard. On behalf of the court

and the community, we express a thanks for the work you are

doing.

I want you to take a break tonight and go back to family

and loved ones. Do not answer any of their questions about

what's going on in the court. Tell them the judge has ordered

you not to. So no discussing the case with anyone, including

among yourselves. No independent research. Continue to keep

an open mind. Get a good night's sleep. We'll ask you to be

here, as always, at 9:15 in the hope that we can get you in

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Mary A. Schweinhagen, RDR, CRR (937) 512-1604

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the courtroom at 9:30.

Out of respect for you, we will rise as you leave for the

day.

THE COURTROOM DEPUTY: All rise for the jury.

(Jury out at 4:34 p.m.)

THE COURT: The jury's left the room. The door is

closed. Is there anything that requires the Court's attention

before we adjourn for the evening, first from the government?

MR. MANGAN: Your Honor, I --

THE COURT: Should I sit down? Is this going to --

everybody better sit down.

MR. MANGAN: I didn't think it would be that long,

but, Your Honor, tomorrow we discussed with the defense that

after calling a few witnesses what we wanted to do was publish

some exhibits that have been admitted but have not yet been

read to the jury.

We have a number of exhibits that we admitted but have

not yet published, one of which is a lengthy transcript of a

recording, and what we wanted to do was have a couple people

read the transcript to publish it to the jury. We weren't

going to do that through a witness. We were just going to

bring people in to read as the publication. The defense

indicated they have an objection to that process. So I wanted

to at least raise it today so that if the Court has a

preference or an instruction, we can abide by it.

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Mary A. Schweinhagen, RDR, CRR (937) 512-1604

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THE COURT: Very well. Defense wish to be heard?

MR. MIEDEL: I'll step over here, Your Honor.

THE COURT: Okay.

MR. MIEDEL: Yes, Your Honor, we object to that

process because the exhibit that the government is talking

about is a lengthy transcript. It's a recording. It's

already in evidence. So now the government is simply seeking

to bring in people from the outside to read parts of that

transcript to the jury without a witness on the stand. That's

just not an appropriate process of doing that.

The government can obviously -- the exhibit is in

evidence. It will be in the hands of the jury. The

government, in summation, can point to whatever they want in

that transcript that they think is important. But it's not

appropriate to bring outside people in who were not

eyewitnesses to simply do a reading of an exhibit.

THE COURT: I tend to agree. I am not yet

comfortable with the process. I will continue to think about

it.

Did you wish to be heard further at this time,

Mr. Mangan?

MR. MANGAN: Your Honor, I guess what I would say is

that at some point we want to get those admitted exhibits in

the, you know, in the hands or the eyes of the jury so they

can digest what is in there.

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Mary A. Schweinhagen, RDR, CRR (937) 512-1604

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THE COURT: Typically, that would happen when the

exhibit goes to the witness room.

MR. MANGAN: They can certainly do it then, Your

Honor. This is simply a method of, you know, reading through

some of these items for the jury. I suppose we could -- we

could put a witness on the stand and just read, similar to any

other exhibit, but it may be a witness that wouldn't do

anything more than read. You know, there would be no

commentary on it. It's simply reading.

THE COURT: That sounds exciting.

MR. MANGAN: Oh, it's going to be gripping either

way, but, you know -- so if we need to put somebody on the

stand, we can; but generally, what we were simply trying to do

was to read to the jury. I think that's at least a preferable

way than to handing it out and then just having them sort of

read on their own.

THE COURT: Well, I'm still not comfortable with it.

I'll work on it.

MR. MANGAN: All right. That's all we had, Your

Honor.

THE COURT: Very well. Does the defense have

anything before -- to interfere with my ability to leave at

this time?

MS. CORS: No, Your Honor. Thank you.

THE COURT: That's a credit to you.

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The special agent will not discuss his testimony that

he's given during the break, and if you will behave yourself

in the city of Cincinnati.

THE WITNESS: Will do.

THE COURT: We're in recess for the day.

THE COURTROOM DEPUTY: All rise. This court is now

in recess.

(Proceedings adjourned at 4:38 p.m.)

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Mary A. Schweinhagen, RDR, CRR (937) 512-1604

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CERTIFICATE OF REPORTER

I, Mary A. Schweinhagen, Federal Official Realtime

Court Reporter, in and for the United States District Court

for the Southern District of Ohio, do hereby certify that

pursuant to Section 753, Title 28, United States Code that the

foregoing is a true and correct transcript of the

stenographically reported proceedings held in the

above-entitled matter and that the transcript page format is

in conformance with the regulations of the Judicial Conference

of the United States.

s/Mary A. Schweinhagen

__________________________________ 20th of January, 2022

MARY A. SCHWEINHAGEN, RDR, CRR

FEDERAL OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER

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