1 IN THE UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT

2 FOR THE SOUTHERN DISTRICT OF OHIO

3 EASTERN DIVISION

4 ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

5 STACIE RAY, BASIL ARGENTO, JANE DOE,

6 AND ASHLEY BREDA,

7 Plaintiffs,

8

9 vs. Civil Action No.

10 2:18-CV-00272-MHW-CMV

11 AMY ACTON, IN HER OFFICIAL CAPACITY

12 AS DIRECTOR OF THE OHIO DEPARTMENT

13 OF HEALTH, et al.,

14

15 Defendants.

16 ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

17 Deposition of

18 BASIL ARGENTO

19

 August 29, 2019

20 11:00 a.m.

21 Taken at:

 Calfee Halter & Griswold, LLP

22 41 South High Street, Suite 1200

 Columbus, Ohio

23

24 Kimberly A. Kaz, RPR, Notary Public

25

Page 1

Veritext Legal Solutions

www.veritext.com 888-391-3376

CONFIDENTIAL

Case: 2:18-cv-00272-MHW-CMV Doc #: 64 Filed: 01/14/20 Page: 1 of 136 PAGEID #: 2118
1 APPEARANCES:

2

3 On behalf of the Plaintiffs:

4 American Civil Liberties Union of

5 Ohio Foundation, by

6 ELIZABETH BONHAM, ESQ.

7 (via videoconference)

8 4506 Chester Avenue

9 Cleveland, Ohio 44103

10 (216) 472-2220

11 ebonham@acluohio.org

12

13 On behalf of the Defendants:

14 Calfee Halter & Griswold, LLP, by

15 JAKE BLAKE, ESQ.

16 41 South High Street, Suite 1200

17 Columbus, Ohio 43215

18 (614) 621-7789

19 jblake@calfee.com

20 ~ ~ ~ ~ ~

21

22

23

24

25

Page 2

Veritext Legal Solutions

www.veritext.com 888-391-3376

CONFIDENTIAL

Case: 2:18-cv-00272-MHW-CMV Doc #: 64 Filed: 01/14/20 Page: 2 of 136 PAGEID #: 2119
1 TRANSCRIPT INDEX

2

3 APPEARANCES............................... 2

4

5 INDEX OF EXHIBITS ........................ 4

6

7 EXAMINATION OF BASIL ARGENTO

8 By Mr. Blake.............................. 5

9 By Ms. Bonham............................. 125

10

11 REPORTER'S CERTIFICATE.................... 129

12

13 EXHIBIT CUSTODY

14 EXHIBITS RETAINED BY COURT REPORTER

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

Page 3

Veritext Legal Solutions

www.veritext.com 888-391-3376

CONFIDENTIAL

Case: 2:18-cv-00272-MHW-CMV Doc #: 64 Filed: 01/14/20 Page: 3 of 136 PAGEID #: 2120
1 INDEX OF EXHIBITS

2 NUMBER DESCRIPTION MARKED

3 Exhibit 6 Birth Certificate............. 52

4 Exhibit 9 E-mail Communications......... 41

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

Page 4

Veritext Legal Solutions

www.veritext.com 888-391-3376

CONFIDENTIAL

Case: 2:18-cv-00272-MHW-CMV Doc #: 64 Filed: 01/14/20 Page: 4 of 136 PAGEID #: 2121
1 BASIL ARGENTO, of lawful age,

2 called for examination, as provided by the

3 Federal Rules of Civil Procedure, being by me

4 first duly sworn, as hereinafter certified,

5 deposed and said as follows:

6 EXAMINATION OF BASIL ARGENTO

7 BY MR. BLAKE:

8 Q. Okay. Mr. -- is it "Argento" or

9 "Argento"?

10 A. "Argento." It's Italian.

11 Q. "Argento." It's Italian.

12 Okay. Could you spell your name

13 for the record, please?

14 A. Basil, B-a-s-i-l, Argento,

15 A-r-g-e-n-t-o.

16 Q. Great. Thank you.

17 And have you ever had your

18 deposition taken before?

19 A. No.

20 Q. All right. So I'm just going to go

21 over a few ground rules, then, just so we can

22 be on the same page regarding how this is going

23 to proceed and so we don't trip over ourselves.

24 So as you know, there's a court reporter here.

25 The court reporter is typing everything I say,

Page 5

Veritext Legal Solutions

www.veritext.com 888-391-3376

CONFIDENTIAL

Case: 2:18-cv-00272-MHW-CMV Doc #: 64 Filed: 01/14/20 Page: 5 of 136 PAGEID #: 2122
1 is going to type everything you say and

2 everything your attorney says, but in order to

3 do that, she needs us to all talk -- well, for

4 us to talk one at a time. We can't talk over

5 one another. So when I ask you a question,

6 please wait for me question to finish, and as

7 you answer the question, I'll try to do the

8 same, I'll try to wait until you finish before

9 I ask another question. Does that make sense?

10 A. Uh-huh. Yes.

11 Q. So you've just brought up the

12 second rule, which is all of your answers need

13 to be oral, auditory. You can't nod your head

14 because the court reporter can't indicate that

15 on the -- on her transcript, and because things

16 like "uh-huh," "huh-uh" look ambiguous on a

17 transcript, to the extent the answer calls for

18 a "yes" or "no" response, I would appreciate it

19 if you said "yes" or "no" or affirmative or

20 "correct" or something similar. And if you

21 don't, I may ask you to clarify.

22 The other rule is it's your

23 deposition, so if at any time you want to stop,

24 take a break, get a glass of water, go to the

25 restroom, anything like that, that's perfectly

Page 6

Veritext Legal Solutions

www.veritext.com 888-391-3376

CONFIDENTIAL

Case: 2:18-cv-00272-MHW-CMV Doc #: 64 Filed: 01/14/20 Page: 6 of 136 PAGEID #: 2123
1 okay. The only caveat to that is that if

2 there's a question pending, I'd ask that you

3 finish the question or answer the question

4 before we take a break. Does that make sense?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. All right. And just for your

7 information, you know, we've taken two other of

8 the plaintiffs' depositions in this case, and

9 they've each gone three hours or so, and I

10 anticipate that that's probably about the

11 length of time yours will go, okay?

12 A. Yep.

13 Q. All right. So if there are other

14 things that we've missed, we'll sort of learn

15 on the way, but for me, that's about all I have

16 as far as ground rules, so we can kind of

17 proceed into the substantive portion of your

18 deposition, all right?

19 A. (Nods head.)

20 Q. "Yes"?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. Okay. All right. So I'm going to

23 use several terms, and there's a lot of

24 disagreement about what terms mean in this

25 case. I just want to make sure you understand

Page 7

Veritext Legal Solutions

www.veritext.com 888-391-3376

CONFIDENTIAL

Case: 2:18-cv-00272-MHW-CMV Doc #: 64 Filed: 01/14/20 Page: 7 of 136 PAGEID #: 2124
1 what I mean when I use certain terminology in

2 this case, okay?

3 A. Yep.

4 Q. And that's another -- that's

5 another important point. If I ask a question

6 and it's unclear or confusing to you, you need

7 to tell me because if you answer the question,

8 I'm going to assume and the record's going to

9 reflect that you understood the question and

10 you were -- you were answering it, okay?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. So if you need me to clarify, just

13 say so, okay?

14 MS. BONHAM: And just because we've

15 been through this before, I'm just going to put

16 a standing objection on the record, if I can to

17 the extent that any of the terminology calls

18 for us to accept any of defendants' definition,

19 we don't, and to the extent that any question

20 or use of terminology calls for expert or legal

21 testimony, we'll just put a standing objection

22 on the record, if that's okay with you.

23 MR. BLAKE: Yeah. I agree. You

24 guys can have your standing objection, and I

25 would appreciate it if we treated it that way

Page 8

Veritext Legal Solutions

www.veritext.com 888-391-3376

CONFIDENTIAL

Case: 2:18-cv-00272-MHW-CMV Doc #: 64 Filed: 01/14/20 Page: 8 of 136 PAGEID #: 2125
1 and so it wouldn't be necessary, then, to

2 object on that grounds at every question.

3 Q. Okay. So the first term is "ODH,"

4 and that generically stands for the Ohio

5 Department of Health, which is one of the

6 defendants in this case. You know that, right?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. And when I refer to "ODH," because

9 there's multiple defendants that have been

10 sued, I'm referring to all of them. So do you

11 understand that?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. To the extent I need to refer to

14 any one of the defendants as an individual or

15 in their individual capacity, I'll let you

16 know. I'll make that clear on the record,

17 okay?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. All right. The term "transgender,"

20 "transgendered," "transgenderism" or any

21 related term is someone whose gender identity

22 does not align with their birth or biological

23 sex. When I use that term or terms, that's

24 what I mean. Do you understand that?

25 A. I understand that you think that's

Page 9

Veritext Legal Solutions

www.veritext.com 888-391-3376

CONFIDENTIAL

Case: 2:18-cv-00272-MHW-CMV Doc #: 64 Filed: 01/14/20 Page: 9 of 136 PAGEID #: 2126
1 what that means.

2 Q. And we'll get into what your

3 definition is during the deposition, okay?

4 And then "cisgendered" is someone

5 whose gender identity aligns with their birth

6 or biological sex. Do you understand that's

7 what I mean when I use that term?

8 A. I understand that's what you mean.

9 Q. Okay. All right. Mr. Argento,

10 what is your address?

11 

12

13 Q. And how long have you lived there?

14 A. Moved in July 2nd of this year.

15 Q. And where did you live before that?

16 A. In Columbus.

17 Q. Where did you live in Columbus?

18 A. Think of my address.

19 Q. I don't need the address, but, you

20 know, just part of town.

21 A. 

22

23 Q. When you said "we," who did you

24 live with?

25 A. My husband.

Page 10

Veritext Legal Solutions

www.veritext.com 888-391-3376

CONFIDENTIAL

Case: 2:18-cv-00272-MHW-CMV Doc #: 64 Filed: 01/14/20 Page: 10 of 136 PAGEID #: 2127
1 Q. And did your husband move out to

2 Colorado with you?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. What's his name?

5 A. 

6 Q. 

7 A. 

8 Q. How long have you been married?

9 A. Two years approximately.

10 Q. So married approximately 2017?

11 A. Yeah. 

12 Q. And before you were married, did

13 you have a relationship with 

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. I mean, would you -- would you call

16 it, like, a dating relationship? Were you guys

17 a couple?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. How long were you guys together

20 before you got -- before you were married

21 approximately?

22 A. Between three and four years.

23 Q. And so you started seeing

24 sometime 2013, 2014. Is that about

25 right?

Page 11

Veritext Legal Solutions

www.veritext.com 888-391-3376

CONFIDENTIAL

Case: 2:18-cv-00272-MHW-CMV Doc #: 64 Filed: 01/14/20 Page: 11 of 136 PAGEID #: 2128
1 A. That's about right, yeah.

2 Q. And how long have you lived with

3 approximately?

4 A. Around three -- I would say three,

5 three-and-a-half years.

6 Q. Okay. So you met him and things

7 were going well. You guys moved in together

8 pretty soon thereafter?

9 A. Uh-huh.

10 Q. "Yes"?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. Okay. All right. What is your --

13 what's your highest level of education?

14 A. I have a Bachelor's degree, and I

15 am currently pursuing my Master's.

16 Q. Is that a Bachelor's of Arts or a

17 Bachelor's of Science?

18 A. Bachelor of Arts.

19 Q. What was your Bachelor of Arts in?

20 A. Psychology.

21 Q. And when did you -- when did you

22 obtain the degree?

23 A. 2010.

24 Q. From what institution did you

25 obtain the degree?

Page 12

Veritext Legal Solutions

www.veritext.com 888-391-3376

CONFIDENTIAL

Case: 2:18-cv-00272-MHW-CMV Doc #: 64 Filed: 01/14/20 Page: 12 of 136 PAGEID #: 2129
1 A. Columbia College.

2 Q. Is that an online university or

3 where is that university located?

4 A. They're in Missouri. They also

5 have online.

6 Q. And did you take the classes

7 remotely?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. When did you start taking classes

10 at Columbia College?

11 A. Probably about a year before I

12 graduated. I had transferred and had credits.

13 Q. So you started taking classes at

14 Columbia College in 2009, right?

15 A. Approximately.

16 Q. And it took you a year or so to

17 complete your Bachelor's of Arts in psychology;

18 is that right?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. And you said you had some transfer

21 credits. Where did you obtain those credits?

22 A. Oh, about ten different schools

23 over ten or 15 years.

24 Q. So you started taking college

25 classes in the late '90s, mid-'90s or so. Does

Page 13

Veritext Legal Solutions

www.veritext.com 888-391-3376

CONFIDENTIAL

Case: 2:18-cv-00272-MHW-CMV Doc #: 64 Filed: 01/14/20 Page: 13 of 136 PAGEID #: 2130
1 that sound about right?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. And you -- it wasn't, like, one

4 continuous course of study, you -- you changed

5 schools throughout that time, right?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Were those schools all online

8 schools or were some of them brick and mortar?

9 A. Some were brick and mortar.

10 Q. Okay. And I don't intend to go

11 through all ten or so schools over the last ten

12 or 15 years, but in general, what -- what was

13 the reason why you decided to leave or stop

14 attending the various schools?

15 A. I mean, there were lots of

16 different reasons at different times in my

17 life. The first one, I was, you know, dealing

18 with the transition and I was poor.

19 Q. So at least with regard to some of

20 them, it was issues related to your gender

21 transition, right, and then --

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. And then other times, it had to do

24 with, you know, not having the finances to

25 continue on with your education at that time,

Page 14

Veritext Legal Solutions

www.veritext.com 888-391-3376

CONFIDENTIAL

Case: 2:18-cv-00272-MHW-CMV Doc #: 64 Filed: 01/14/20 Page: 14 of 136 PAGEID #: 2131
1 right?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. Okay. But you stuck with it and

4 eventually obtained your degree in 2010?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. Okay. And you said now you're

7 pursuing a Master's degree?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. When did you start pursuing your

10 Master's degree?

11 A. About a year and a half ago.

12 Q. So 2018, 2017-ish?

13 A. Yeah. Yes.

14 Q. And from what institution are you

15 seeking your Master's degree from?

16 A. Adams State University.

17 Q. And is the Master's degree also in

18 psychology?

19 A. It's in clinical mental health

20 counseling.

21 Q. Is that a branch of psychology?

22 A. I mean, that depends on your

23 opinion. It's focused on counseling as a

24 profession.

25 Q. Is a psychology degree required

Page 15

Veritext Legal Solutions

www.veritext.com 888-391-3376

CONFIDENTIAL

Case: 2:18-cv-00272-MHW-CMV Doc #: 64 Filed: 01/14/20 Page: 15 of 136 PAGEID #: 2132
1 before you can take a Master's course in

2 clinical mental health counseling?

3 A. No.

4 Q. Is it common?

5 A. As far as I understand, there's

6 people from many different backgrounds that

7 change to get a Master's in that, in that

8 specialty.

9 Q. Is Adams State another online

10 university or is that one located in Colorado

11 somewhere?

12 A. It's located in Colorado and they

13 also have online classes.

14 Q. Do you attend classes in person or

15 do you do them online?

16 A. I do most of them online, but I go

17 in the summer to face-to-face courses.

18 Q. When you anticipate graduating?

19 A. July 2020, I believe.

20 Q. All right. What is your current

21 employment?

22 A. I'm not employed.

23 Q. You're unemployed?

24 A. I just go to school right now.

25 Q. Is there a reason why you only do

Page 16

Veritext Legal Solutions

www.veritext.com 888-391-3376

CONFIDENTIAL

Case: 2:18-cv-00272-MHW-CMV Doc #: 64 Filed: 01/14/20 Page: 16 of 136 PAGEID #: 2133
1 the in-person classes during the summer as

2 opposed to all year?

3 A. That's how the program's set up.

4 Q. As part of your coursework in

5 clinical mental health counseling, has there

6 been any additional coursework or special

7 emphasis on issues or gender or sex?

8 MS. BONHAM: Objection. We've been

9 through a long line of questioning now about

10 his educational background, and I want to

11 clarify for the record that he's not testifying

12 as an expert and he's not going to testify as

13 an expert, he's testifying only on his personal

14 experience, and so his education related to the

15 issues in the case is irrelevant. Go ahead.

16 THE WITNESS: There's not been a

17 class in the Master's program.

18 Q. What about when you obtained your

19 Bachelor of Arts in psychology, was there any

20 special class or coursework or course of study

21 that was directed towards issues relating to

22 sex or gender?

23 MS. BONHAM: Same objection. Go

24 ahead.

25 THE WITNESS: Yeah. Yes, I believe

Page 17

Veritext Legal Solutions

www.veritext.com 888-391-3376

CONFIDENTIAL

Case: 2:18-cv-00272-MHW-CMV Doc #: 64 Filed: 01/14/20 Page: 17 of 136 PAGEID #: 2134
1 there was a general sexuality course.

2 Q. You said there was a general

3 sexuality course?

4 A. I believe so, yeah.

5 Q. Did you take that class?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Did that course talk about gender

8 and gender identity and gender issues?

9 MS. BONHAM: Same objection.

10 THE WITNESS: This has been -- it's

11 been a long time ago, and what I believe is it

12 was very briefly talked about as far as

13 transgender.

14 Q. So you recall taking a general

15 sexuality course as part of your Bachelor's of

16 Arts when you were studying psychology, right?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. And although it was several years

19 ago, you do recall that there was at least

20 some -- some small amount of discussion

21 regarding transgender issues. Is that your

22 recollection?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. Approximately how long ago did you

25 take the general sexuality course during your

Page 18

Veritext Legal Solutions

www.veritext.com 888-391-3376

CONFIDENTIAL

Case: 2:18-cv-00272-MHW-CMV Doc #: 64 Filed: 01/14/20 Page: 18 of 136 PAGEID #: 2135
1 studies?

2 A. If I had to guess, probably six to

3 eight years ago.

4 Q. Was that the only coursework you

5 took in either your Bachelor of Arts or

6 Master's programs that looked at transgender

7 issues?

8 MS. BONHAM: Objection. Asked and

9 answered. Continuing objection to the

10 questions that seem to get at expert testimony.

11 Go ahead.

12 THE WITNESS: I honestly -- I think

13 one or two classes, they may have, like,

14 briefly mentioned it in a paragraph, but

15 nothing extensive.

16 Q. Is it your understanding that sex

17 and gender are different?

18 MS. BONHAM: Objection. Calls for

19 expert testimony. Go ahead.

20 THE WITNESS: It's a very complex

21 topic, and I don't think you can say something

22 like that and have it be accurate, no.

23 Q. So you believe that sex and gender

24 are the same?

25 MS. BONHAM: Same objection.

Page 19

Veritext Legal Solutions

www.veritext.com 888-391-3376

CONFIDENTIAL

Case: 2:18-cv-00272-MHW-CMV Doc #: 64 Filed: 01/14/20 Page: 19 of 136 PAGEID #: 2136
1 Misstates testimony.

2 THE WITNESS: It's a very complex

3 thing. You can't just, like, make a blanket

4 statement like that, in my opinion.

5 Q. So it's your -- your understanding

6 of the difference between sex and gender is

7 that it's a complicated question and you

8 can't -- you can't definitively say one way or

9 the other whether they're the same?

10 MS. BONHAM: Objection. Misstates

11 testimony. Foundation. Go ahead.

12 THE WITNESS: My opinion, it's a

13 very complex personal issue for each person to

14 decide for themselves.

15 Q. And have you -- have you reached a

16 decision on that -- on that complicated issue?

17 A. For me, myself, my sex and gender

18 are the same.

19 Q. And on what basis have you

20 concluded that your sex and gender are the

21 same?

22 A. I'm not sure how to answer what

23 basis. This is just my reality.

24 Q. It's just what you believe?

25 MS. BONHAM: Objection.

Page 20

Veritext Legal Solutions

www.veritext.com 888-391-3376

CONFIDENTIAL

Case: 2:18-cv-00272-MHW-CMV Doc #: 64 Filed: 01/14/20 Page: 20 of 136 PAGEID #: 2137
1 THE WITNESS: It's the reality that

2 I live with, yes.

3 Q. You're not a medical doctor, right?

4 A. No.

5 Q. And you don't consider yourself an

6 expert on a person's biological sex, right?

7 A. I'm only an authority for my own

8 life, as is each individual person.

9 Q. So that's a no, you don't consider

10 yourself an expert on a person's biological

11 sex?

12 A. I'm not an expert on another person

13 outside of myself.

14 Q. Do you understand from a medical

15 perspective how a person's sex is determined?

16 MS. BONHAM: Objection. Calls for

17 expert testimony. Go ahead.

18 THE WITNESS: You'd have to restate

19 your question. That question does not compute.

20 Q. Sure. From a medical perspective,

21 do you know how a person's sex can be

22 determined?

23 A. You're asking me to believe in a

24 whole system of thought that I don't believe

25 in.

Page 21

Veritext Legal Solutions

www.veritext.com 888-391-3376

CONFIDENTIAL

Case: 2:18-cv-00272-MHW-CMV Doc #: 64 Filed: 01/14/20 Page: 21 of 136 PAGEID #: 2138
1 Q. Do you believe that medical

2 professionals are capable of determining

3 someone's sex?

4 MS. BONHAM: Objection. Calls for

5 expert testimony. Foundation. Calls for

6 speculation. Go ahead.

7 THE WITNESS: Could you repeat the

8 question?

9 Q. Yeah. I'm asking whether or not

10 you personally believe whether the medical

11 profession is capable of determining a person's

12 biological sex.

13 MS. BONHAM: Same objection.

14 THE WITNESS: Biology is quite

15 misunderstood. The biological idea that gender

16 can be determined by, you know, things, is -- I

17 do not believe that is correct, no.

18 Q. You don't believe that medical

19 professionals using science, using biology can

20 determine a person's gender. Is that what your

21 belief is?

22 MS. BONHAM: Objection. Misstates

23 testimony. Calls for expert testimony.

24 THE WITNESS: There have been many

25 scientific studies showing there's not just

Page 22

Veritext Legal Solutions

www.veritext.com 888-391-3376

CONFIDENTIAL

Case: 2:18-cv-00272-MHW-CMV Doc #: 64 Filed: 01/14/20 Page: 22 of 136 PAGEID #: 2139
1 genetics. It's very complex stuff. It's not

2 something simplistic.

3 Q. I understand you believe it's

4 complicated, but my question was a little

5 different. My question was whether or not you

6 believe -- you said gender, whether you believe

7 gender can be determined using biology and

8 science.

9 MS. BONHAM: Objection. Vague.

10 Asked and answered. Calls for expert

11 testimony.

12 THE WITNESS: I believe that each

13 individual person can determine and tell you

14 their gender.

15 Q. But that a medical doctor can't

16 tell you your gender?

17 MS. BONHAM: Objection. Vague.

18 Misstates testimony. Continuing objection to

19 calls for expert testimony.

20 THE WITNESS: When you're asking me

21 about an individual doctor, I could possibly

22 answer that question. A particular doctor

23 might be able to, another doctor might not be

24 able to.

25 Q. Do you have an understanding of how

Page 23

Veritext Legal Solutions

www.veritext.com 888-391-3376

CONFIDENTIAL

Case: 2:18-cv-00272-MHW-CMV Doc #: 64 Filed: 01/14/20 Page: 23 of 136 PAGEID #: 2140
1 a particular doctor would be able to determine

2 someone's gender?

3 MS. BONHAM: Objection. Calls for

4 expert testimony.

5 THE WITNESS: By asking.

6 Q. Any other ways besides just asking

7 them?

8 A. No other ways are necessary.

9 Q. I didn't ask you whether or not

10 they were necessary, sir, I asked you whether

11 or not you were aware of any other methods

12 besides simply asking somebody.

13 MS. BONHAM: Same objection.

14 THE WITNESS: No. I do not think

15 that's necessary, no.

16 Q. And then what about a particular

17 doctor's ability to determine someone's

18 biological sex, are you aware of the ways in

19 which a medical doctor might be able to do

20 that?

21 MS. BONHAM: Objection. Calls for

22 expert testimony. Objection to the term

23 "biological sex."

24 THE WITNESS: Well, you're saying

25 biological sex as a way to determine someone's

Page 24

Veritext Legal Solutions

www.veritext.com 888-391-3376

CONFIDENTIAL

Case: 2:18-cv-00272-MHW-CMV Doc #: 64 Filed: 01/14/20 Page: 24 of 136 PAGEID #: 2141
1 gender, which I don't want -- I don't see why

2 we're bringing that up.

3 Q. So did you -- I don't think I heard

4 an answer in there. I think I heard you say

5 something about what you were inferring from my

6 question, so let me re-ask it.

7 Do you have an understanding of how

8 a medical professional could determine

9 someone's biological sex?

10 MS. BONHAM: Same objection. Calls

11 for speculation. Vague.

12 THE WITNESS: No, I don't. I do

13 not believe that that's a possibility.

14 Q. You don't know if it's possible to

15 determine someone's biological sex from a

16 medical perspective, or you don't have an

17 understanding of how they -- they make that

18 determination?

19 MS. BONHAM: Objection. Asked and

20 answered. Calls for expert testimony. He's

21 asked you whether or not you can think of how.

22 THE WITNESS: It's a loaded

23 question. You know, you're asking me to accept

24 your definition.

25 Q. I haven't asked you to accept a

Page 25

Veritext Legal Solutions

www.veritext.com 888-391-3376

CONFIDENTIAL

Case: 2:18-cv-00272-MHW-CMV Doc #: 64 Filed: 01/14/20 Page: 25 of 136 PAGEID #: 2142
1 definition, I've asked you simply to say

2 whether or not you're aware of ways in which a

3 medical professional can or does determine

4 someone's biological sex.

5 MS. BONHAM: Objection. Vague.

6 Asked and answered.

7 THE WITNESS: Again, you're asking

8 me to accept that that is the reality, that

9 somebody could -- you're asking me if I have an

10 understanding of something that I don't

11 believe.

12 Q. You don't believe that there's such

13 a thing as biological sex?

14 A. Correct.

15 MS. BONHAM: Objection to the term

16 "biological sex."

17 THE WITNESS: Yes.

18 Q. Do you believe that there's such a

19 thing as gender?

20 A. That's another really complicated

21 thing. I mean, I believe in gender.

22 Q. You believe in gender?

23 A. As a range, not in a black or white

24 way.

25 Q. You don't view gender as an

Page 26

Veritext Legal Solutions

www.veritext.com 888-391-3376

CONFIDENTIAL

Case: 2:18-cv-00272-MHW-CMV Doc #: 64 Filed: 01/14/20 Page: 26 of 136 PAGEID #: 2143
1 either/or construct; is that correct?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. You believe gender -- or you

4 believe gender is a spectrum; is that fair?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. Are -- is it fair to say the ends

7 of the spectrum for gender are one end male and

8 one end female, or is that not a fair

9 characterization?

10 MS. BONHAM: Objection. Vague.

11 Calls for expert testimony. Calls for

12 speculation.

13 THE WITNESS: That's -- I mean,

14 that's up to each individual person, how they

15 view gender.

16 Q. Well, what is your belief?

17 A. I can only speak for myself, and

18 I'm male, and that's all I can say about that.

19 Q. I guess I was asking you about your

20 belief about the spectrum. I wasn't asking

21 about what your belief about your gender is, I

22 was asking you about your belief about the

23 spectrum and whether or not you believe that

24 one end of the spectrum is male and the other

25 end of the spectrum is female. That's all I

Page 27

Veritext Legal Solutions

www.veritext.com 888-391-3376

CONFIDENTIAL

Case: 2:18-cv-00272-MHW-CMV Doc #: 64 Filed: 01/14/20 Page: 27 of 136 PAGEID #: 2144
1 was asking.

2 A. I mean, you can make any number of

3 models for how it could possibly work. I don't

4 see any value in creating a specific --

5 Q. So you don't necessarily agree that

6 the spectrum would be male to female, right?

7 A. No.

8 Q. You think it could be any number of

9 different ways to characterize the ends of that

10 spectrum, not necessarily male and female?

11 A. Yes. It's up to each person how

12 they view gender.

13 Q. Okay. And so my question to you

14 was how do you personally view it. You agreed

15 with my characterization of it as a spectrum,

16 and I was just wondering how you viewed -- in

17 your view, how you viewed that spectrum.

18 MS. BONHAM: Objection. Calls for

19 speculation. Calls for expert testimony.

20 THE WITNESS: I view people as

21 individuals, and they can tell me their gender

22 or how they feel about it or their model of

23 what the gender or whatever you want to call it

24 looks like.

25 Q. Do you believe biological sex is on

Page 28

Veritext Legal Solutions

www.veritext.com 888-391-3376

CONFIDENTIAL

Case: 2:18-cv-00272-MHW-CMV Doc #: 64 Filed: 01/14/20 Page: 28 of 136 PAGEID #: 2145
1 a spectrum?

2 MS. BONHAM: Objection. Calls for

3 expert testimony. Continuing objection to the

4 term "biological sex."

5 THE WITNESS: Biological sex,

6 that's just -- it's a concept, you know, and

7 it's a concept that I don't believe is correct.

8 Q. But like you said before, you're

9 not a medical doctor, so you don't consider

10 yourself an expert on biological sex, right?

11 A. Of course not.

12 Q. And you don't consider yourself an

13 expert on gender either, do you?

14 A. Of course not. I'm only an expert

15 in my own life.

16 Q. And you haven't received any

17 certifications or degrees regarding sex and

18 gender, right?

19 A. No.

20 Q. You haven't published any papers

21 regarding sex and gender, right?

22 A. No.

23 Q. And you haven't given any talks or

24 presentations on the topics of sex and gender,

25 right?

Page 29

Veritext Legal Solutions

www.veritext.com 888-391-3376

CONFIDENTIAL

Case: 2:18-cv-00272-MHW-CMV Doc #: 64 Filed: 01/14/20 Page: 29 of 136 PAGEID #: 2146
1 A. No.

2 Q. Do you believe birth certificates

3 are a form of identification?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. Do you believe that birth

6 certificates reflect biological data that

7 exists at the time of birth?

8 A. Some of it, yes.

9 Q. Okay. Do you know whether the

10 information on a birth certificate is recorded

11 by the individual whose birth record is

12 reflected or by the Ohio Department of Health?

13 A. The Ohio Department of Health is --

14 issues birth certificates and has control over

15 them.

16 Q. It's not the responsibility of the

17 individual who was just born to, you know, fill

18 in or fill out their birth certificate, right?

19 A. Of course not.

20 Q. And at the time that the birth

21 certificates are made, does the individual have

22 any control over what information is recorded

23 or displayed on the birth record?

24 A. Of course not.

25 Q. And the individual doesn't certify

Page 30

Veritext Legal Solutions

www.veritext.com 888-391-3376

CONFIDENTIAL

Case: 2:18-cv-00272-MHW-CMV Doc #: 64 Filed: 01/14/20 Page: 30 of 136 PAGEID #: 2147
1 or attest to the accuracy of the birth record,

2 right?

3 MS. BONHAM: Objection.

4 THE WITNESS: Of course not.

5 Q. It's ODH that certifies the

6 accuracy of the birth record, right?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Do you hold yourself as a

9 transgendered to the public?

10 A. That's a complicated matter. I am

11 out in some circumstances and not in others.

12 Q. What circumstances are you out in?

13 A. With family and friends and with

14 other trans people, especially trans youth and

15 in my counseling practice.

16 Q. Do you have a counseling practice?

17 A. Yes. I just began it.

18 Q. Oh, 'cause earlier, you said you

19 were unemployed. Is that until recently you've

20 been unemployed?

21 A. I just -- well, I just signed the

22 lease for my office space, so I haven't started

23 yet. Will be shortly.

24 Q. In the next week or two or --

25 A. Probably in about two weeks, yeah.

Page 31

Veritext Legal Solutions

www.veritext.com 888-391-3376

CONFIDENTIAL

Case: 2:18-cv-00272-MHW-CMV Doc #: 64 Filed: 01/14/20 Page: 31 of 136 PAGEID #: 2148
1 Q. Did you have a counseling practice

2 before that?

3 A. I had a practicum.

4 Q. What is a practicum?

5 A. It's where you work under another

6 professional.

7 Q. Counseling professional?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. And when did you leave there?

10 A. May of last year.

11 Q. May of 2018?

12 A. May of this year.

13 Q. May of 2019. And that was in

14 Denver?

15 A. That was in Columbus, Ohio.

16 Q. Oh, that's right, 'cause you just

17 moved in July, right?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Who did you work for in Columbus,

20 Ohio?

21 A. I have to look up her name. I

22 can't think of her name right now.

23 Q. How long did you work there?

24 A. Five months.

25 Q. And what kind of counseling did you

Page 32

Veritext Legal Solutions

www.veritext.com 888-391-3376

CONFIDENTIAL

Case: 2:18-cv-00272-MHW-CMV Doc #: 64 Filed: 01/14/20 Page: 32 of 136 PAGEID #: 2149
1 do there?

2 A. I counseled many different kinds of

3 clients, and then I also counseled people in

4 the -- in the substance abuse program we had

5 there. I remember her name. It's 

6 .

7 Q. And then otherwise, it was just

8 general counseling?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. How long did you do that for?

11 A. It was about five months.

12 Q. Oh, I think I asked you that.

13 Before that, were you employed as a

14 counselor anywhere else or --

15 A. No.

16 Q. Did you have any other form of

17 employment prior to that?

18 A. In my life?

19 Q. Well, just in the last few years.

20 A. I have a few websites that I

21 created that I sell merchandise from.

22 Q. So you were selling things online?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. Like, through Pinterest or

25 something like that?

Page 33

Veritext Legal Solutions

www.veritext.com 888-391-3376

CONFIDENTIAL

Case: 2:18-cv-00272-MHW-CMV Doc #: 64 Filed: 01/14/20 Page: 33 of 136 PAGEID #: 2150
1 A. Did you say Pinterest?

2 Q. Yeah.

3 A. Oh, no. Just -- just my own

4 website. It wasn't on another --

5 Q. It wasn't hosted by anybody?

6 A. No.

7 Q. What kind of things did you sell?

8 A. On my main website, I sell, you

9 know, like, gender and sexuality products for

10 transgender men.

11 Q. Like, personal care products or

12 clothing? Like, what are you talking about?

13 A. Sexuality-related products.

14 Q. Okay. Do you still operate that

15 website?

16 A. It still exists, but I don't

17 have -- I haven't had time to work on it, so...

18 Q. Okay. You said that it was more

19 than one. What other kinds of -- what other

20 kinds of websites did you sell things on?

21 A. They were basically other -- other

22 sexuality-related items, but not specifically

23 for transgender people.

24 Q. When you say "sexuality products,"

25 are you referring to, like, items used during

Page 34

Veritext Legal Solutions

www.veritext.com 888-391-3376

CONFIDENTIAL

Case: 2:18-cv-00272-MHW-CMV Doc #: 64 Filed: 01/14/20 Page: 34 of 136 PAGEID #: 2151
1 sex or during intimate moments, things like

2 that?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Okay. I just -- it wasn't clear to

5 me.

6 All right. While we're on the

7 topics, and you don't have to pull these out,

8 but these are the interrogatories and discovery

9 requests that were served in this case. Do you

10 recall providing your counsel with information

11 so that those could be answered and returned to

12 me?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. Okay. So in response to one of

15 the -- well, one of the interrogatories called

16 for social media accounts and things of that

17 nature. Do you recall that?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. And in response to that, you -- you

20 identified an Instagram page called "Eat

21 Me Organic." Does that ring a bell?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. And I went on the page, and it

24 looked like a baked goods store or some sort of

25 advertisement for baked goods; is that

Page 35

Veritext Legal Solutions

www.veritext.com 888-391-3376

CONFIDENTIAL

Case: 2:18-cv-00272-MHW-CMV Doc #: 64 Filed: 01/14/20 Page: 35 of 136 PAGEID #: 2152
1 accurate?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. All right. So is that another one

4 of the things that you sell and market online,

5 or is that kind of a defunct website?

6 A. It's defunct now. It was a project

7 I did for probably three or four months.

8 Q. That was something you were doing

9 in Ohio?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. Okay. So besides the gender

12 sexuality products, the baked goods, anything

13 else you can recall selling online, or is that

14 the landscape?

15 A. Yeah. That's it as far as online.

16 Q. Okay. What about not online, did

17 you ever sell anything, like, in a storefront

18 or out of your house or anything?

19 A. I mean, the -- the cookie business

20 was in person. I would go to festivals.

21 Q. Okay. All right. We were talking

22 about the number of people that you were,

23 quote/unquote, out with regarding your status

24 as a transgendered person. You identified

25 family, friends, other trans people and folks

Page 36

Veritext Legal Solutions

www.veritext.com 888-391-3376

CONFIDENTIAL

Case: 2:18-cv-00272-MHW-CMV Doc #: 64 Filed: 01/14/20 Page: 36 of 136 PAGEID #: 2153
1 that you were counseling; is that accurate?

2 A. Yes. Not all clients that I

3 counsel, but some.

4 Q. Okay. Is there anything particular

5 that would cause you to reveal that information

6 during a counseling session?

7 A. Yes. I would reveal that during

8 counseling for someone who is transgender or

9 gender questioning.

10 Q. Okay. Was that a -- was that a

11 large number of your clients?

12 A. Maybe a third.

13 Q. How many people would you say

14 you've disclosed or revealed your transgender

15 status to?

16 A. How many people, like, in my life?

17 Q. Yeah.

18 A. I have no idea. How could I

19 possibly -- I mean, it's been -- I

20 transitioned --

21 Q. I'm sorry. You said you

22 transitioned when what?

23 A. When I was pretty young. I don't

24 know how many people's been told.

25 Q. Would you say it's in the hundreds?

Page 37

Veritext Legal Solutions

www.veritext.com 888-391-3376

CONFIDENTIAL

Case: 2:18-cv-00272-MHW-CMV Doc #: 64 Filed: 01/14/20 Page: 37 of 136 PAGEID #: 2154
1 A. Probably not hundreds, no.

2 Q. Greater than 50?

3 A. Yeah.

4 Q. Somewhere between 50 and a hundred

5 people; is that fair?

6 A. As far as I can guesstimate.

7 Q. You don't keep a running list,

8 right?

9 A. Of course not.

10 Q. Do you know how many people have

11 found out about your transgendered status due

12 to your birth certificate?

13 A. Maybe around ten, but they're not

14 people I've chose to disclose to, I was forced

15 to.

16 Q. Has the disclosure of your birth

17 certificate ever led to bodily harm?

18 A. Bodily harm, no.

19 Q. Those ten people or so that you've

20 disclosed your birth certificate to that's led

21 to the revelation of your transgendered status,

22 have those all been people that have been in

23 connection with some sort of state or federal

24 government agency?

25 A. Yes.

Page 38

Veritext Legal Solutions

www.veritext.com 888-391-3376

CONFIDENTIAL

Case: 2:18-cv-00272-MHW-CMV Doc #: 64 Filed: 01/14/20 Page: 38 of 136 PAGEID #: 2155
1 Q. You used to be a Buckeye, at least.

2 You no longer are, but I'm sure that you're

3 familiar with the Pride festival in Columbus;

4 is that fair?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. And you would agree that it's a

7 celebration of a lot of things, but one of

8 those things is transgendered individuals,

9 right?

10 A. It should be. It is not always.

11 Q. Okays. In your experience, though,

12 has that celebration included transgender

13 celebration and -- well, celebration of

14 transgendered people?

15 A. Usually, yes, at least in small

16 part.

17 Q. Have you ever participated in the

18 Pride festival?

19 A. I've attended it.

20 Q. Okay. What about in Colorado, is

21 there a similar festival out there?

22 A. Probably.

23 Q. You just -- you don't know, you

24 haven't been there long enough?

25 A. Right.

Page 39

Veritext Legal Solutions

www.veritext.com 888-391-3376

CONFIDENTIAL

Case: 2:18-cv-00272-MHW-CMV Doc #: 64 Filed: 01/14/20 Page: 39 of 136 PAGEID #: 2156
1 Q. And if there is, is it your intent

2 to participate in the future?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. The fact that you're a

5 transgendered person doesn't humiliate you,

6 does it?

7 MS. BONHAM: Objection.

8 THE WITNESS: My status as

9 transgender is very personal, and it does not

10 humiliate me in itself, what's humiliating is

11 how people have treated me, particularly these

12 government officials once I've been forced to

13 disclose.

14 Q. Okay. And being transgendered

15 isn't something that you're ashamed about,

16 right?

17 A. No.

18 MS. BONHAM: Objection.

19 THE WITNESS: No, I'm not.

20 Q. You're proud of your status as a

21 transgendered person, right?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. And it's fair to say that you're so

24 proud of that transgendered status, that you're

25 happy to share your story about being

Page 40

Veritext Legal Solutions

www.veritext.com 888-391-3376

CONFIDENTIAL

Case: 2:18-cv-00272-MHW-CMV Doc #: 64 Filed: 01/14/20 Page: 40 of 136 PAGEID #: 2157
1 transgendered with anyone who's willing to

2 listen; isn't that right?

3 MS. BONHAM: Objection.

4 Argumentative. Misstates testimony.

5 THE WITNESS: That's absolutely

6 incorrect.

7 Q. You said that --

8 A. It's absolutely incorrect. I'm not

9 happy to share it with just anyone. It's very

10 personal and I've had very, very bad

11 experiences with certain people.

12 Q. I'm going to ask you to take a look

13 at Exhibit 9, Defendants' Exhibit 9, which your

14 counsel should have.

15 - - - - -

16 (Thereupon, Deposition Exhibit 9,

17 E-mail Communications, was marked

18 for purposes of identification.)

19 - - - - -

20 MS. BONHAM: I'm just going to put

21 on the record, so this is a video deposition.

22 Opposing counsel has e-mailed us the exhibits

23 that he intends to use, and we'll put them up

24 on an adjacent screen here during the

25 deposition. So you said Exhibit 9?

Page 41

Veritext Legal Solutions

www.veritext.com 888-391-3376

CONFIDENTIAL

Case: 2:18-cv-00272-MHW-CMV Doc #: 64 Filed: 01/14/20 Page: 41 of 136 PAGEID #: 2158
1 MR. BLAKE: Yes, Exhibit 9. Let me

2 know when you have it on the screen.

3 MS. BONHAM: All right. We're

4 ready.

5 Q. Defendants' Exhibit 9 is a group

6 exhibit of e-mails that was provided by counsel

7 in response to some of our document requests.

8 Mr. Argento, do you, at least on the top page,

9 recognize this document?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. Okay. And if you could turn to --

12 and at the bottom -- well, at the bottom are a

13 sear of Bates numbers. The first page is Bates

14 numbered 000026. Do you see that?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. And if you could turn to Bates

17 No. 41, 000041, and let me know when you're

18 there.

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. At the bottom of -- I guess, the

21 middle is an e-mail from a woman named Alana

22 Jochum. Do you see that?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. And Alana Jochum has an e-mail

25 address that indicates that she is affiliated

Page 42

Veritext Legal Solutions

www.veritext.com 888-391-3376

CONFIDENTIAL

Case: 2:18-cv-00272-MHW-CMV Doc #: 64 Filed: 01/14/20 Page: 42 of 136 PAGEID #: 2159
1 with qualityohio.org. Do you see that?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. Are you familiar with the

4 organization qualityohio.org?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. And if you look over to the right,

7 there's a date of Wednesday, July 27th, 2016.

8 Do you see that?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. And according to this e-mail, at

11 that date and time, she sent you, among others,

12 an e-mail to an account,

13 . Do you see that?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. Is your

16 e-mail address?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. Is it still your e-mail address?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Okay. And do you recall receiving

21 this e-mail or at least communicating with

22 Ms. Jochum or about --

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. -- Wednesday, July 27th, 2016?

25 A. Yes.

Page 43

Veritext Legal Solutions

www.veritext.com 888-391-3376

CONFIDENTIAL

Case: 2:18-cv-00272-MHW-CMV Doc #: 64 Filed: 01/14/20 Page: 43 of 136 PAGEID #: 2160
1 Q. Okay. And as far as you can tell,

2 is there a true and accurate copy of that

3 e-mail correspondence?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. All right. If you look down to the

6 middle paragraph in this e-mail, and it begins

7 with the sentence "Of Course..." Do you see

8 that?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. And she says: Of course, we will

11 continue to change the policy here causing this

12 issue in the first place.

13 Do you see that?

14 A. Yes.

15 MS. BONHAM: Objection. That

16 slightly misstates document. It reads: Of

17 course, we will continue to work to change the

18 policy here.

19 Q. Causing this issue in the first

20 place! Right? I tried to read it accurately,

21 and it's probably the additional buffer of

22 technology that we have between us maybe cuts

23 out. So I'm not going to misread anything

24 that's quoted directly in front of us, at least

25 not intentionally.

Page 44

Veritext Legal Solutions

www.veritext.com 888-391-3376

CONFIDENTIAL

Case: 2:18-cv-00272-MHW-CMV Doc #: 64 Filed: 01/14/20 Page: 44 of 136 PAGEID #: 2161
1 Okay. So we all agree what it says

2 now. My question is: What was your

3 understanding of the issue she was referring to

4 in that -- in that sentence?

5 A. The issue is that I was trying to

6 get my Italian citizenship recognized, and they

7 were giving me a lot of difficulties because of

8 the fact that my Ohio birth certificate said

9 the wrong gender on it.

10 Q. Okay. And that issue was related

11 to your status as a transgendered person,

12 right?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. Okay. That same day, you

15 responded, and if we go to the e-mail below

16 that, it's an e-mail before you back to

17 Ms. Jochum and others. Do you see that e-mail?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. And you respond: Alana, I would be

20 happy to share my story in any way that is

21 helpful, and I am grateful for your assistance

22 with this issue.

23 Do you see that?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. So at least with regards to what

Page 45

Veritext Legal Solutions

www.veritext.com 888-391-3376

CONFIDENTIAL

Case: 2:18-cv-00272-MHW-CMV Doc #: 64 Filed: 01/14/20 Page: 45 of 136 PAGEID #: 2162
1 Ms. Jochum was talking about, you were happy to

2 share your story with anyone, right?

3 A. Not with anyone. I'm happy to

4 share my story in a way that would help fix

5 this terrible problem that we're discussing

6 here today.

7 Q. Okay. So you would share your

8 story in any way that would help fix that

9 problem, but not necessarily to anyone; is that

10 accurate?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. Okay. Let's go to Bates No. 69,

13 000069. Let me know when you're there. It's

14 about four pages from the back of the document.

15 A. Okay.

16 Q. Okay. This is another e-mail

17 correspondence with Ms. Jochum, right?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. And this one occurred on or about

20 April 6th, 2017. Do you see that?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. And like the other one, as far as

23 you're aware, is there a true and accurate copy

24 of the e-mail correspondence you had with

25 Ms. Jochum on or about that date?

Page 46

Veritext Legal Solutions

www.veritext.com 888-391-3376

CONFIDENTIAL

Case: 2:18-cv-00272-MHW-CMV Doc #: 64 Filed: 01/14/20 Page: 46 of 136 PAGEID #: 2163
1 A. Yes.

2 Q. And if you look at --

3 MS. BONHAM: That's April 2017. I

4 realize, Jake, you're trying to read this

5 accurately, and I just want to make a good

6 record on the transcript.

7 MR. BLAKE: Yeah. What did I say?

8 MS. BONHAM: 2016.

9 MR. BLAKE: Well, 2017 it is.

10 Q. So if you look at the last full

11 e-mail on April 6th, 2017 at 3:54 p.m. from

12 Ms. Jochum, do you see that?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. And she says: Would you be willing

15 to share your story about this process and the

16 hurdles you had to go through due to the fact

17 that Ohio does not have a clear process to

18 correct a person's gender marker on their birth

19 certificate?

20 Did I read that accurately?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. And then you responded a few

23 minutes later: I would love to. Nothing I

24 would love more than to have that happen in

25 this state. Thank you for all your efforts.

Page 47

Veritext Legal Solutions

www.veritext.com 888-391-3376

CONFIDENTIAL

Case: 2:18-cv-00272-MHW-CMV Doc #: 64 Filed: 01/14/20 Page: 47 of 136 PAGEID #: 2164
1 Do you see that?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. So it's accurate to say you were

4 more than willing to share your story, to tell

5 people, to let people know about this -- this

6 transgender issue that was impacting you and

7 others, right?

8 A. Well, let me be clear. I would not

9 choose to be doing this if it wasn't so

10 important. In this context, I am willing to do

11 this, and it's in invasive and it's

12 uncomfortable. I don't want to be doing it,

13 but transgender people are marginalized and at

14 risk and young trans people die of suicide,

15 and, therefore, I'm here.

16 Q. So is that a "yes"?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. And have you, in fact, been sharing

19 your story with others?

20 MS. BONHAM: Objection. Vague.

21 THE WITNESS: I mean, can you

22 restate that?

23 Q. Sure. You -- you promised

24 Ms. Jochum that you would be happy to share

25 your story with others. Have you, in fact,

Page 48

Veritext Legal Solutions

www.veritext.com 888-391-3376

CONFIDENTIAL

Case: 2:18-cv-00272-MHW-CMV Doc #: 64 Filed: 01/14/20 Page: 48 of 136 PAGEID #: 2165
1 done that since you made that promise in

2 April 2017 and at other times?

3 A. Okay. So you're asking me if I did

4 in that specific instance. She never contacted

5 me further about doing so. I would have, but I

6 didn't -- I wasn't asked.

7 Q. What about with others besides

8 people affiliated with Quality Ohio and

9 Ms. Jochum?

10 A. Of course I've told certain people

11 about parts of my life.

12 Q. So other than your communications

13 with your counsel here, have you worked with

14 any other organizations or advocacy groups

15 trying to get your story out and talk about the

16 issues that we're talking about today in this

17 case?

18 A. No.

19 Q. One of the claims in the complaint

20 is that the -- that ODH discriminates against

21 transgendered people because they are not

22 permitted to change the sex identifier on their

23 birth certificate, right?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Are you aware of any laws in Ohio

Page 49

Veritext Legal Solutions

www.veritext.com 888-391-3376

CONFIDENTIAL

Case: 2:18-cv-00272-MHW-CMV Doc #: 64 Filed: 01/14/20 Page: 49 of 136 PAGEID #: 2166
1 related to birth certificates that mention

2 transgender individuals?

3 MS. BONHAM: Objection. Calls for

4 a legal conclusion.

5 THE WITNESS: I mean, I don't know

6 any specifics about laws.

7 Q. So are you aware of any laws in

8 Ohio related to birth certificates that make

9 any mention to gender?

10 MS. BONHAM: Same objection.

11 THE WITNESS: No.

12 Q. Do you know whether Ohio laws

13 permit anyone, regardless of gender, to change

14 their sex marker on their birth certificate?

15 MS. BONHAM: Objection. Vague and

16 calls for a legal conclusion.

17 THE WITNESS: I mean, I talked

18 to -- I've talked to people at the Ohio

19 Department of Health who told me it was

20 impossible to change it.

21 Q. It's your understanding that ODH

22 will not change a birth certificate based on

23 gender identity, right?

24 MS. BONHAM: Same objection.

25 THE WITNESS: It's my understanding

Page 50

Veritext Legal Solutions

www.veritext.com 888-391-3376

CONFIDENTIAL

Case: 2:18-cv-00272-MHW-CMV Doc #: 64 Filed: 01/14/20 Page: 50 of 136 PAGEID #: 2167
1 that they will not change the gender listed on

2 a birth certificate.

3 Q. For any reason or based on a change

4 in gender identity?

5 MS. BONHAM: Objection. Calls for

6 legal conclusions. Vague. Objection to the

7 terms "sex" and "gender" and "gender identity"

8 as they're being used.

9 THE WITNESS: It's my understanding

10 that if they believe they made an error, they

11 will change it, but that's up to them to decide

12 what was an error.

13 Q. And when you say "they," you mean

14 if ODH made an error?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Do you know when Ohio's laws

17 related to birth certificates were enacted?

18 MS. BONHAM: Objection.

19 Foundation. Calls for a legal conclusion.

20 THE WITNESS: No.

21 Q. Do you know whether Ohio law

22 applies differently to transgendered or

23 cisgendered individuals?

24 MS. BONHAM: Same objections.

25 THE WITNESS: Yes, it clearly does.

Page 51

Veritext Legal Solutions

www.veritext.com 888-391-3376

CONFIDENTIAL

Case: 2:18-cv-00272-MHW-CMV Doc #: 64 Filed: 01/14/20 Page: 51 of 136 PAGEID #: 2168
1 Q. In what way does Ohio law apply

2 differently to transgendered or cisgendered

3 individuals?

4 MS. BONHAM: Same objections.

5 THE WITNESS: Cisgendered people

6 have an accurate birth certificate and

7 transgendered people cannot have an accurate

8 birth certificate.

9 Q. In what way is a transgendered

10 birth certificate inaccurate?

11 MS. BONHAM: Objection. Vague.

12 THE WITNESS: The gender is

13 incorrect.

14 MS. BONHAM: Let's take a break.

15 We got to take a bathroom break.

16 MR. BLAKE: Sure.

17 (Recess taken.)

18 - - - - -

19 (Thereupon, Deposition Exhibit 6,

20 Birth Certificate, was marked for

21 purposes of identification.)

22 - - - - -

23 Q. So I was going to show you

24 Defendants' Exhibit 6, so let me know when you

25 have that pulled up on your screen.

Page 52

Veritext Legal Solutions

www.veritext.com 888-391-3376

CONFIDENTIAL

Case: 2:18-cv-00272-MHW-CMV Doc #: 64 Filed: 01/14/20 Page: 52 of 136 PAGEID #: 2169
1 MS. BONHAM: Okay.

2 Q. All right. Do you have 6 in front

3 of you?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. All right. Defendants' Exhibit 6

6 is a document, which is a copy of your

7 certification of birth. Have you seen this

8 before?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. And right before we left for break,

11 you had indicated that one way, at least, in

12 which you thought that Ohio laws discriminated

13 against transgendered people was because the

14 gender was inaccurate for a transgendered

15 person, but accurate for a cisgendered person.

16 Do you recall that testimony?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. All right. Where on this document

19 does the word "gender" appear?

20 A. It's the sex, which is the same as

21 gender, in my opinion.

22 Q. But you acknowledge that the Ohio

23 birth record does not contain the word

24 "gender," right?

25 A. It has "sex," which is the same as

Page 53

Veritext Legal Solutions

www.veritext.com 888-391-3376

CONFIDENTIAL

Case: 2:18-cv-00272-MHW-CMV Doc #: 64 Filed: 01/14/20 Page: 53 of 136 PAGEID #: 2170
1 gender, yes.

2 Q. Do you know how the Ohio Department

3 of Health received information about your sex

4 at the time of your birth?

5 MS. BONHAM: Objection.

6 Foundation.

7 THE WITNESS: I wasn't there. You

8 know, I was there, but I was a baby.

9 Q. So you don't know how the Ohio

10 Department of Health received this information

11 at or near the time of your birth; is that

12 accurate?

13 A. Not without speculating.

14 Q. Do you have any understanding about

15 how they received that information?

16 A. Again, not without speculating how

17 it happened.

18 Q. So you have an understanding, but

19 it's just a guess; is that accurate?

20 MS. BONHAM: Objection. Misstates.

21 THE WITNESS: I mean, it could --

22 it could be any number of ways. I don't know.

23 Q. Well, what are the ways in which

24 you believe that ODH could have received this

25 information?

Page 54

Veritext Legal Solutions

www.veritext.com 888-391-3376

CONFIDENTIAL

Case: 2:18-cv-00272-MHW-CMV Doc #: 64 Filed: 01/14/20 Page: 54 of 136 PAGEID #: 2171
1 MS. BONHAM: Objection.

2 Foundation. Calls for speculation. Asked and

3 answered.

4 THE WITNESS: I mean, it could have

5 been -- I don't know if it was erred from the

6 hospital. That's just a guess.

7 Q. It could have been reported from

8 the hospital, right? Right?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. Could have been reported by your

11 parents, right?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Any other ways?

14 MS. BONHAM: Same objections.

15 THE WITNESS: Sure. There's any

16 number of ways.

17 Q. Well, I can't think of any, so I

18 was just wondering if you could.

19 A. No.

20 Q. Okay. Let's assume it's one of

21 those two ways, and I understand you don't know

22 for sure, right, but do you believe that it was

23 incorrect to report your sex as female at or

24 near the time of your birth?

25 A. Yes.

Page 55

Veritext Legal Solutions

www.veritext.com 888-391-3376

CONFIDENTIAL

Case: 2:18-cv-00272-MHW-CMV Doc #: 64 Filed: 01/14/20 Page: 55 of 136 PAGEID #: 2172
1 Q. On what basis do you believe that

2 was inaccurate?

3 A. Because I -- you can't -- because

4 you can't tell gender just from looking at

5 someone.

6 Q. All right. Can you tell sex just

7 by looking at someone?

8 A. No.

9 Q. But you're not a medical doctor,

10 right?

11 A. Of course not.

12 Q. Do you have any evidence to

13 contradict that your sex was recorded as female

14 by ODH based on information provided by the

15 medical provider at or near the time of your

16 birth?

17 MS. BONHAM: Objection. Compound.

18 Vague.

19 THE WITNESS: Like I said, I don't

20 know what happened. I was a baby.

21 Q. Would it have been -- would it have

22 been accurate for the medical provider to

23 report that your sex was male to ODH at or near

24 the time of your birth?

25 A. It would have been just as valid as

Page 56

Veritext Legal Solutions

www.veritext.com 888-391-3376

CONFIDENTIAL

Case: 2:18-cv-00272-MHW-CMV Doc #: 64 Filed: 01/14/20 Page: 56 of 136 PAGEID #: 2173
1 putting that. I mean, it's just a guess.

2 Q. Do you have any information about

3 what a medical provider uses to report sex at

4 the time of birth to ODH?

5 MS. BONHAM: Asked and answered.

6 THE WITNESS: I mean, I can guess

7 what they do, but...

8 Q. What's your guess?

9 A. My guess is they just look at a

10 person's genitals, a baby's genitals.

11 

12 

13 

14 

15 MS. BONHAM: Objection.

16 THE WITNESS: It doesn't -- a

17 person's genitals does not reflect gender or

18 sex, in my opinion.

19 

20 

21 

22 

23 

24 MS. BONHAM: Objection.

25 THE WITNESS: You're asking me to

Page 57

Veritext Legal Solutions

www.veritext.com 888-391-3376

CONFIDENTIAL

Case: 2:18-cv-00272-MHW-CMV Doc #: 64 Filed: 01/14/20 Page: 57 of 136 PAGEID #: 2174
1 agree with that -- with, you know, that whole

2 philosophy, which I cannot.

3 

4 

5 

6 

7 

8

9 MS. BONHAM: Objection.

10 

11 

12 

13 

14 Q. It's your belief that the Ohio

15 Department of Health shouldn't track a person's

16 sex at the time of birth?

17 MS. BONHAM: Objection.

18 THE WITNESS: Yes.

19 

20 

21

22 MS. BONHAM: Objection.

23 

24 

25 

Page 58

Veritext Legal Solutions

www.veritext.com 888-391-3376

CONFIDENTIAL

Case: 2:18-cv-00272-MHW-CMV Doc #: 64 Filed: 01/14/20 Page: 58 of 136 PAGEID #: 2175
1 

2 

3 

4 

5 

6 

7 

8 

9 MS. BONHAM: Objection. Misstates

10 testimony. Calls for speculation. Calls for

11 expert testimony. Calls for a legal

12 conclusion.

13 THE WITNESS: It's my belief that

14 sex or gender should not have been reported

15 based on a baby's genitalia.

16 Q. What basis do you have to support

17 your assertion that the sex recorded on your

18 birth certificate was incorrect at the time of

19 birth?

20 MS. BONHAM: Objection. Calls for

21 expert testimony. Calls for legal conclusions.

22 To the extent he's able to give a lay answer.

23 Asked and answered.

24 THE WITNESS: Well, I mean, just my

25 reality. I've always felt male from my

Page 59

Veritext Legal Solutions

www.veritext.com 888-391-3376

CONFIDENTIAL

Case: 2:18-cv-00272-MHW-CMV Doc #: 64 Filed: 01/14/20 Page: 59 of 136 PAGEID #: 2176
1 earliest memories, and I believe there was no

2 need for them to report either way on a birth

3 certificate or to track it on a birth

4 certificate at all.

5 Q. Are you aware of any method by

6 which a medical provider can identify gender at

7 the time of birth?

8 MS. BONHAM: Objection. Calls for

9 expert testimony.

10 THE WITNESS: I mean, this is the

11 same question you're asking me if someone can

12 tell genitalia and classify them as male or

13 female, which I do not believe is reflective of

14 reality.

15 Q. Well, it's because you -- you -- as

16 you testified before, you don't believe

17 biological sex is a real thing, right?

18 MS. BONHAM: Objection. Misstates

19 testimony. Calls for a legal conclusion.

20 Calls for expert testimony.

21 THE WITNESS: Biological sex, in my

22 opinion, it's in the brain.

23 Q. And so it's your belief that a

24 medical doctor can determine neither biological

25 sex nor gender identity at the time of birth?

Page 60

Veritext Legal Solutions

www.veritext.com 888-391-3376

CONFIDENTIAL

Case: 2:18-cv-00272-MHW-CMV Doc #: 64 Filed: 01/14/20 Page: 60 of 136 PAGEID #: 2177
1 MS. BONHAM: Objection. Misstates

2 testimony. Calls for expert testimony.

3 THE WITNESS: Yes.

4 Q. Could you pull up Exhibit 3?

5 A. Okay.

6 Q. All right. The document that's

7 being shown to you is a document which was

8 previously marked as Exhibit 3. I'll represent

9 to you that this is the template for the long

10 form of data which is collected and recorded by

11 the Ohio Department of Health at or near the

12 time of birth. Do you see that document?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. Do the words "gender" or "gender

15 identity" appear anywhere in that form?

16 A. The word "sex" is on there, which

17 is the same as gender, in my opinion.

18 MS. BONHAM: And I just want to let

19 the record reflect, this looks like a 14-page

20 document. He's scrolling through it and he

21 didn't produce it and can't authenticate it.

22 Q. Have you finished reviewing the

23 document?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. And did you see the word "gender"

Page 61

Veritext Legal Solutions

www.veritext.com 888-391-3376

CONFIDENTIAL

Case: 2:18-cv-00272-MHW-CMV Doc #: 64 Filed: 01/14/20 Page: 61 of 136 PAGEID #: 2178
1 or "gender identity"?

2 A. There's a synonym for "gender,"

3 which is "sex."

4 Q. Okay. But other than the sex

5 identifier, which is included on that -- that

6 document, you don't see the word "gender" or

7 "gender identity," right?

8 A. No. But like I said, "sex" is a

9 synonym for "gender," so it's the same as if it

10 said "gender" on it.

11 Q. And that's your personal opinion,

12 right?

13 A. That is my opinion, yes.

14 Q. Are you aware of any forms or

15 records maintained by ODH that track a person's

16 gender or gender identity?

17 MS. BONHAM: Objection.

18 Foundation.

19 THE WITNESS: Sex, which is the

20 same, yes.

21 Q. So just the birth certificate and

22 the long form that I've shown you. Any other

23 documents besides those two?

24 MS. BONHAM: Same objection.

25 THE WITNESS: You're asking me

Page 62

Veritext Legal Solutions

www.veritext.com 888-391-3376

CONFIDENTIAL

Case: 2:18-cv-00272-MHW-CMV Doc #: 64 Filed: 01/14/20 Page: 62 of 136 PAGEID #: 2179
1 what -- what other documents they have in their

2 internal system?

3 Q. I'm asking you whether or not

4 you're aware of any other documents which track

5 gender or gender identity. You've testified to

6 two documents, which include the word "sex,"

7 which you consider a synonym, and I'm asking

8 you whether you're aware of any other -- any

9 other such documents.

10 A. No.

11 Q. And your gender identity is male,

12 right?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. Which contradicts with the sex,

15 which is identified on your birth certificate

16 as female, right?

17 A. The gender or sex as a synonym is

18 incorrect on my birth certificate, yes.

19 Q. Are you familiar with the term

20 "karyotype"?

21 A. I have heard of it, yes.

22 Q. And if I told you someone had XX

23 chromosomes, that would indicate a sex as

24 female, right?

25 MS. BONHAM: Objection.

Page 63

Veritext Legal Solutions

www.veritext.com 888-391-3376

CONFIDENTIAL

Case: 2:18-cv-00272-MHW-CMV Doc #: 64 Filed: 01/14/20 Page: 63 of 136 PAGEID #: 2180
1 Foundation. Calls for expert testimony. Calls

2 for speculation.

3 THE WITNESS: That's actually

4 incorrect. There are people that have XX

5 chromosomes who are male and there are people

6 with XY chromosomes who are female. Some have

7 even given birth. That's just incorrect.

8 There's also many other besides XX or XY.

9 Q. So when you say someone with XX

10 chromosomes is male, are you referring to their

11 gender or their biological sex?

12 MS. BONHAM: Objection.

13 THE WITNESS: Those are the same,

14 in my opinion.

15 Q. Okay. So is it your understanding,

16 then, that your chromosomes do not dictate your

17 biological sex?

18 MS. BONHAM: Same objection.

19 THE WITNESS: It's not an

20 understood science and it's been highly

21 oversimplified by popular science.

22 Q. So what science are you relying on

23 when you say that you do not believe that an XX

24 chromosome indicates someone's sex is female?

25 MS. BONHAM: Objection.

Page 64

Veritext Legal Solutions

www.veritext.com 888-391-3376

CONFIDENTIAL

Case: 2:18-cv-00272-MHW-CMV Doc #: 64 Filed: 01/14/20 Page: 64 of 136 PAGEID #: 2181
1 Foundation. Asked and answered. Calls for

2 expert testimony. He's obviously not relying

3 on science as a lay witness.

4 THE WITNESS: There have been

5 plenty of studies outside of whatever

6 mainstream beliefs, but you can look up and

7 find out that there are people with XY

8 chromosomes who have given birth and there are

9 people with, you know, XX, XO, XX, whatever,

10 there's many different variations.

11 Q. Do you recall any of those studies

12 or papers that you're referring to?

13 A. Not off the top of my head, but

14 there are many.

15 

16 

17 MS. BONHAM: Objection.

18 THE WITNESS: 

19 Q. 

20 

21 MS. BONHAM: Objection.

22 Argumentative. Foundation.

23 THE WITNESS: 

24

25 Q. In your opinion, right?

Page 65

Veritext Legal Solutions

www.veritext.com 888-391-3376

CONFIDENTIAL

Case: 2:18-cv-00272-MHW-CMV Doc #: 64 Filed: 01/14/20 Page: 65 of 136 PAGEID #: 2182
1 A. In my opinion.

2 Q. 

3 

4 

5 MS. BONHAM: Same objections.

6 THE WITNESS: 

7

8 Q. And you're not aware of any

9 procedure by which a person can change their

10 chromosomes, right?

11 MS. BONHAM: Same objections.

12 THE WITNESS: I am not aware of a

13 procedure that a person can change their

14 chromosomes, but there are variations besides

15 XX or XY.

16 Q. Are you aware of any legislative

17 purpose when Ohio enacted its laws related to

18 birth certificates?

19 MS. BONHAM: Objection.

20 Foundation. Calls for a legal conclusion.

21 THE WITNESS: I don't really

22 understand your question. I don't understand

23 that question and I don't know about legal type

24 of matters. That's why I have counsel.

25 Q. Do you have any evidence at all

Page 66

Veritext Legal Solutions

www.veritext.com 888-391-3376

CONFIDENTIAL

Case: 2:18-cv-00272-MHW-CMV Doc #: 64 Filed: 01/14/20 Page: 66 of 136 PAGEID #: 2183
1 that Ohio's laws regarding the amendment of its

2 birth records were motivated by an hatred or

3 animus or ill will towards transgendered

4 people?

5 MS. BONHAM: Same objections.

6 Calls for legal conclusions.

7 THE WITNESS: Yeah. I mean, I can

8 speculate on what people were thinking when

9 they created whatever laws are there, but it's

10 clear that now, in the present day, they are

11 motivated to keep transgendered people from

12 having accurate records.

13 Q. What basis do you have to say that

14 ODH is motivated to keep transgendered people

15 from having accurate birth records?

16 A. Because it's a very simple matter

17 to change somebody's birth certificate for

18 other reasons such as name change or such as

19 adopted parents and will not even having any

20 sort of way to change -- to correct a

21 transgendered person's record.

22 Q. Are you aware that specific

23 statutes which allow a person to undergo a name

24 change or a change of parentage on their birth

25 certificate?

Page 67

Veritext Legal Solutions

www.veritext.com 888-391-3376

CONFIDENTIAL

Case: 2:18-cv-00272-MHW-CMV Doc #: 64 Filed: 01/14/20 Page: 67 of 136 PAGEID #: 2184
1 MS. BONHAM: Objection. Calls for

2 a legal conclusion. Foundation.

3 THE WITNESS: I don't specifically

4 know the law specifically about that, no.

5 Q. Is it your understanding that ODH

6 will only change the sex marker on a birth

7 certificate if there is a clerical error

8 reporting or recording the sex at the time of

9 birth?

10 A. It's my understanding that they

11 judge what a clerical error is, and that is the

12 only way they will allow as evidence to be

13 changed, yes.

14 Q. And you would agree that there was

15 no clerical error on your birth certificate,

16 right?

17 MS. BONHAM: Objection.

18 Argumentative. Calls for a legal conclusion.

19 THE WITNESS: No, I would not agree

20 with that.

21 Q. You think there was a clerical

22 error on your birth certificate?

23 MS. BONHAM: Same objections.

24 THE WITNESS: Yes.

25 Q. What was the clerical error?

Page 68

Veritext Legal Solutions

www.veritext.com 888-391-3376

CONFIDENTIAL

Case: 2:18-cv-00272-MHW-CMV Doc #: 64 Filed: 01/14/20 Page: 68 of 136 PAGEID #: 2185
1 A. Putting down a gender or sex. Sex

2 or gender, synonym.

3 Q. Let's turn back to Exhibit 9. Let

4 me know when it's in front of you.

5 A. Yeah.

6 Q. All right. And if you turn to the

7 third page, which is Bates numbered 000028, let

8 me know when you're there.

9 A. Okay.

10 Q. Starting at the top, there's a --

11 an e-mail from you to

12 probateinfo@franklincountyohio.gov. Do you see

13 that e-mail?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. And it's dated July 8th, 2016,

16 right?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. And there's a series of e-mails

19 following that. Looks like three or four

20 communications. To the best of your knowledge,

21 is that a true and accurate reflection of the

22 correspondence you had with the probate court

23 in Franklin County?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. All right. And at the very top,

Page 69

Veritext Legal Solutions

www.veritext.com 888-391-3376

CONFIDENTIAL

Case: 2:18-cv-00272-MHW-CMV Doc #: 64 Filed: 01/14/20 Page: 69 of 136 PAGEID #: 2186
1 the first e-mail in the chain, it says: Hello.

2 Can you tell me if there's a form or procedure

3 for a legal gender change?

4 Do you see that?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. And the probate court responded

7 four minutes later, which is incredible for

8 lots of reasons, but they say: Was there an

9 error on the birth certificate?

10 Do you see that?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. And you said: It is a case of

13 transsexualism, not a clerical error.

14 Do you see that?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Okay. So you being transgendered

17 and you having female on your birth certificate

18 isn't a clerical error, right?

19 MS. BONHAM: Objection. Calls for

20 a legal conclusion.

21 THE WITNESS: Well, I'm speaking as

22 somebody trying to quickly help them understand

23 my situation. I was not going to try to act as

24 if I wasn't transgender, I was trying to

25 explain that. I still consider it a clerical

Page 70

Veritext Legal Solutions

www.veritext.com 888-391-3376

CONFIDENTIAL

Case: 2:18-cv-00272-MHW-CMV Doc #: 64 Filed: 01/14/20 Page: 70 of 136 PAGEID #: 2187
1 error because, you know, I'm -- I've been male

2 my entire life. I was trying to quickly

3 explain myself to the person.

4 Q. You described it -- you described

5 it to the probate court as not a clerical

6 error, right?

7 A. Yes. I said that, but that is so I

8 can explain to them my situation. I do

9 consider it a clerical error, but I did not

10 want to misrepresent that I'm not trans.

11 MS. BONHAM: To the extent that the

12 term "clerical error" is going to create legal

13 conclusions, we'll have a standing objection to

14 the use of that term in the interchange.

15 MR. BLAKE: Well, it's his word,

16 not mine.

17 THE WITNESS: It was them.

18 Q. Whatever you told to the probate

19 court, it's your testimony today, though, that

20 it's not a clerical error. Is that my

21 understanding?

22 MS. BONHAM: Objection. Misstates

23 testimony.

24 THE WITNESS: Well, as I said, I

25 was trying to explain myself in a quick, simple

Page 71

Veritext Legal Solutions

www.veritext.com 888-391-3376

CONFIDENTIAL

Case: 2:18-cv-00272-MHW-CMV Doc #: 64 Filed: 01/14/20 Page: 71 of 136 PAGEID #: 2188
1 way to a bureaucrat, but I do consider it a

2 clerical error, yes.

3 Q. In what way was the state's

4 recording of your sex at birth as female a

5 clerical error?

6 A. Because it's not accurate.

7 Q. How is it inaccurate?

8 A. You can't tell someone's gender by

9 just looking at them.

10 Q. What about their sex, can you tell

11 someone's sex by looking at them?

12 MS. BONHAM: Objection.

13 THE WITNESS: Again, sex, no, you

14 cannot tell because "sex" is a synonym of

15 "gender."

16 Q. Earlier, you testified that you

17 didn't think biological sex existed. Is that

18 still accurate?

19 MS. BONHAM: Objection. Misstates

20 testimony. Calls for expert testimony.

21 THE WITNESS: Biological sex is

22 complicated and misunderstood, and it's usually

23 that term used to oppress trans people.

24 Q. Do you know why the state records

25 sex at the time of birth?

Page 72

Veritext Legal Solutions

www.veritext.com 888-391-3376

CONFIDENTIAL

Case: 2:18-cv-00272-MHW-CMV Doc #: 64 Filed: 01/14/20 Page: 72 of 136 PAGEID #: 2189
1 MS. BONHAM: Objection.

2 Foundation. Calls for speculation.

3 THE WITNESS: The state is a straw

4 man or human people, you know, like, people

5 deciding to do things. I can't speculate on

6 why they did that.

7 Q. You don't know whether the state or

8 the Department of Health has any particular

9 interest or reason for tracking people's birth

10 sex?

11 MS. BONHAM: Same objections.

12 THE WITNESS: I don't know what

13 their reasons are, but I believe that it's not

14 necessary.

15 Q. Upon what do you base your belief

16 that it's not necessary to track someone's

17 birth sex?

18 MS. BONHAM: Objection to the term

19 "birth sex."

20 THE WITNESS: Yes, because when

21 you're saying "birth sex," the state or the

22 Ohio Department of Health has no business

23 knowing anything about people's genitals.

24 Q. Do you know what the CDC is?

25 A. It's in there somewhere. No. Tell

Page 73

Veritext Legal Solutions

www.veritext.com 888-391-3376

CONFIDENTIAL

Case: 2:18-cv-00272-MHW-CMV Doc #: 64 Filed: 01/14/20 Page: 73 of 136 PAGEID #: 2190
1 me.

2 Q. No.

3 Do you know what Social Security

4 is?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. Okay. Are you aware that the

7 Department of Social Security collects

8 information regarding individuals' birth sex

9 for enrollment in the Social Security program?

10 A. I'm aware that they do it, not that

11 they have a good reason for it.

12 Q. Do you know what an infant growth

13 chart is?

14 A. I mean, I've heard of such a thing.

15 Q. Have you ever heard your friends

16 discuss their kids or your own kid and have a

17 doctor or someone say they're in such and such

18 percentile for weight or height? Have you ever

19 heard that?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. And are you aware that there are

22 different growth charts for males and females?

23 A. Yes, but individuals don't fall

24 immediately to a chart. That is on an average.

25 Q. Do you know who compiles that

Page 74

Veritext Legal Solutions

www.veritext.com 888-391-3376

CONFIDENTIAL

Case: 2:18-cv-00272-MHW-CMV Doc #: 64 Filed: 01/14/20 Page: 74 of 136 PAGEID #: 2191
1 information?

2 A. No.

3 Q. Do you know why that information's

4 compiled?

5 A. I can speculate.

6 Q. What do you speculate?

7 A. A growth chart, I'm sure, is to see

8 how healthy a child is.

9 Q. And you would degree that if we

10 didn't track information about the birth weight

11 and sex of children at birth and at various

12 times through life, there would be no way to

13 compile that information and present it as a

14 chart, right?

15 A. I agree that that would be

16 possible, but I do not agree that that is

17 necessary.

18 Q. So you're not a medical doctor,

19 right?

20 A. No.

21 Q. Okay. And you don't believe that a

22 medical provider should have reported your sex

23 at birth as male, right?

24 MS. BONHAM: Objection.

25 THE WITNESS: I don't believe there

Page 75

Veritext Legal Solutions

www.veritext.com 888-391-3376

CONFIDENTIAL

Case: 2:18-cv-00272-MHW-CMV Doc #: 64 Filed: 01/14/20 Page: 75 of 136 PAGEID #: 2192
1 was any reason to report gender or sex at all.

2 Q. So you don't think they should have

3 reported male or female, right?

4 A. Right.

5 Q. When did you determine that your

6 gender did not match your biological sex?

7 MS. BONHAM: Objection.

8 THE WITNESS: Again, I don't

9 believe in the term "biological sex." I

10 remember when I was three years old becoming

11 aware of myself as a person, when I was three

12 years old, and being shocked that I had been

13 dressed in a stereotypically female way 'cause

14 I thought I would be dressed like my father.

15 Q. And have you, since that time,

16 identified yourself as female?

17 A. No.

18 Q. What have you identified yourself

19 as?

20 A. Well, I always felt male and I

21 always believed myself to be male, but I didn't

22 know until I was in -- probably around 1996

23 that it was possible to correct my gender.

24 Q. So from the age of three until the

25 mid-'90s, you felt yourself as a male. And

Page 76

Veritext Legal Solutions

www.veritext.com 888-391-3376

CONFIDENTIAL

Case: 2:18-cv-00272-MHW-CMV Doc #: 64 Filed: 01/14/20 Page: 76 of 136 PAGEID #: 2193
1 were you aware that that was incongruous with

2 what your sex was?

3 MS. BONHAM: Objection.

4 THE WITNESS: I was aware that it

5 was incongruous with what people told me I was

6 supposed to be.

7 Q. If you go to Defendants' Exhibit 5.

8 Let me know when you have that in front of you.

9 A. Okay.

10 Q. And if you look on Page 3, it's

11 Interrogatory No. 2.

12 A. Okay.

13 Q. And we asked you to identify the

14 date you understood that your biological sex

15 did not align with your gender identity. Do

16 you see that interrogatory?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. And you responded. Your response

19 is on the following page and it says that your

20 first memory of bodily awareness was at the age

21 of three years old. That's consistent with

22 what you just testified with, right?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. And at that time, you knew yourself

25 to be a boy and knew that your gender identity

Page 77

Veritext Legal Solutions

www.veritext.com 888-391-3376

CONFIDENTIAL

Case: 2:18-cv-00272-MHW-CMV Doc #: 64 Filed: 01/14/20 Page: 77 of 136 PAGEID #: 2194
1 as a boy did not align with the feminine

2 clothing that you were dressed in, right?

3 A. Yes.

4 MS. BONHAM: I'll note that that

5 answer was made subject to objections that

6 we're not waiving. And also with the

7 documents, just want to note that there's a

8 protective order in this case, and if we could

9 agree to keep any exhibits already designated

10 as confidential or attorneys eyes' only under

11 the protective order with that same designation

12 in the depositions.

13 MR. BLAKE: Sure. Yeah. These

14 interrogatory responses were not marked and

15 you'll have an opportunity to designate,

16 obviously, after the transcript is prepared.

17 Q. What do you mean new -- and I'm

18 changing, obviously, the pronouns from

19 "himself" to "yourself" because I'm talking to

20 you in the first person now. But what do you

21 mean when you stated that you knew yourself to

22 be a boy? What does that mean?

23 A. The same as any other boy knows

24 himself to be a boy. There's no way to -- it's

25 just you know.

Page 78

Veritext Legal Solutions

www.veritext.com 888-391-3376

CONFIDENTIAL

Case: 2:18-cv-00272-MHW-CMV Doc #: 64 Filed: 01/14/20 Page: 78 of 136 PAGEID #: 2195
1 Q. Something internal? Something

2 innate? I mean, what was it?

3 A. Yeah. It was just how I always

4 felt.

5 Q. And in what ways at that time did

6 you identify as a boy instead of a girl?

7 A. In all ways.

8 Q. I mean, what are some of those way?

9 I don't --

10 MS. BONHAM: Objection. Vague.

11 THE WITNESS: I mean, I could tell

12 you stereotypically male things like to do, but

13 that doesn't mean anything. I mean, a lot of

14 other people do things that are not

15 stereotypically things that are part of their

16 gender.

17 Q. So at the age of three, what are

18 the stereotypical boy things that you wanted to

19 do?

20 A. Well, at three, I mean, I don't

21 know, I just felt male. I mean, when I was a

22 little older, I played baseball, things like

23 that. I didn't have any interest in girlie

24 things or anything like that.

25 Q. So sports and more traditionally

Page 79

Veritext Legal Solutions

www.veritext.com 888-391-3376

CONFIDENTIAL

Case: 2:18-cv-00272-MHW-CMV Doc #: 64 Filed: 01/14/20 Page: 79 of 136 PAGEID #: 2196
1 boys clothing. Anything else?

2 A. I think that's basically it.

3 Q. And so at least in your early

4 years, your interest in sports and the type of

5 clothing you preferred was an indication to you

6 that -- that you were, in fact, a male and not

7 a female, right?

8 MS. BONHAM: Objection. Misstates

9 testimony. I also played sports.

10 THE WITNESS: Yeah. Not -- that's

11 not right because I knew internally, and

12 there's no real -- how do you know you're a

13 girl? How do you know you're a boy? I just

14 knew, and that's just how it was.

15 Q. Is there anything about your

16 knowing yourself to be a boy as early as the

17 age of three which could have been detected or

18 reported at the time of your birth?

19 MS. BONHAM: Objection. Calls for

20 speculation. Calls for expert testimony.

21 THE WITNESS: I mean, that's

22 impossible to say. I don't know.

23 Q. You're not aware of anything,

24 right?

25 A. I mean, I'm not aware of any reason

Page 80

Veritext Legal Solutions

www.veritext.com 888-391-3376

CONFIDENTIAL

Case: 2:18-cv-00272-MHW-CMV Doc #: 64 Filed: 01/14/20 Page: 80 of 136 PAGEID #: 2197
1 that they have to put a gender on there.

2 Q. And you're not aware of any way in

3 which they could have detected what your

4 gender, which you identified at three years

5 old, was, right?

6 MS. BONHAM: Same objections.

7 THE WITNESS: At three, they could

8 have asked me at three. When I was a baby --

9 Q. You're not aware of anything when

10 you were a baby, right?

11 A. No.

12 Q. They couldn't have asked you when

13 you were a baby, right?

14 A. Right.

15 Q. And you wouldn't have known

16 anyways, right?

17 MS. BONHAM: Objection. Calls for

18 speculation.

19 THE WITNESS: Nobody knows anything

20 when they're a baby.

21 Q. They know some things. I mean,

22 come on, right? I mean, they know how to feed

23 to some degree and there's some involuntary

24 things that happen, right?

25 A. Nothing to do with higher level

Page 81

Veritext Legal Solutions

www.veritext.com 888-391-3376

CONFIDENTIAL

Case: 2:18-cv-00272-MHW-CMV Doc #: 64 Filed: 01/14/20 Page: 81 of 136 PAGEID #: 2198
1 intellectual development.

2 Q. Right. Like, for example, gender

3 identity, correct?

4 MS. BONHAM: Objection.

5 THE WITNESS: Gender identity or

6 awareness of one's self.

7 Q. All right. You're familiar with

8 the term "gender dysphoria," right?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. And my understanding of that -- of

11 gender dysphoria is that it's a clinical

12 diagnosis where a person's biological sex does

13 not match his or her gender identity. Does

14 that comport with your understanding of that

15 diagnosis?

16 MS. BONHAM: I'm going to object to

17 the use of the terms and to questions that call

18 for expert testimony.

19 THE WITNESS: That is a diagnosis

20 that is -- well, first of all, it's hotly

21 contested. I see it as something that it makes

22 it easy to explain to cisgender people what the

23 situation is, but it does not reflect reality,

24 you know, as far as -- you know, I don't accept

25 that there's the biological sex that's

Page 82

Veritext Legal Solutions

www.veritext.com 888-391-3376

CONFIDENTIAL

Case: 2:18-cv-00272-MHW-CMV Doc #: 64 Filed: 01/14/20 Page: 82 of 136 PAGEID #: 2199
1 separated from the gender identity.

2 Q. Like you said about not being a

3 medical doctor, you're not an expert in

4 diagnosing gender dysphoria either, are you?

5 A. No, I'm not an expert. That is

6 also not just limited to the medical

7 profession.

8 Q. You received a diagnosis of gender

9 dysphoria in early 2000; is that right?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. Sorry. Are you finished?

12 A. I was just going to say I was

13 forced into the situation to get medical

14 treatment, yes.

15 Q. Forced in by whom?

16 A. In order to get medical treatment

17 at that time, you had to get a diagnosis of

18 gender dysphoria. It was not an option to do

19 any other method.

20 

21

22 

23

24 

25

Page 83

Veritext Legal Solutions

www.veritext.com 888-391-3376

CONFIDENTIAL

Case: 2:18-cv-00272-MHW-CMV Doc #: 64 Filed: 01/14/20 Page: 83 of 136 PAGEID #: 2200
1 

2 

3

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. Okay. You were approximately 25 at

6 that time?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Before your diagnosis, had you

9 heard of gender dysphoria?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. So according to the diagnosis, if

12 your biological sex and your gender identity do

13 not match, that means that the biological sex

14 and the gender identity are different, right?

15 MS. BONHAM: Objection.

16 THE WITNESS: No. I mean, they

17 don't know -- they don't know the complex

18 biology of a person, they're just using the

19 term for simplification or to, you know, treat

20 people with hormones or whatever treatment they

21 need.

22 Q. And by that, you mean the medical

23 experts who are actually rendering the

24 diagnosis of gender dysphoria, they're the ones

25 that you say don't understand the complexity of

Page 84

Veritext Legal Solutions

www.veritext.com 888-391-3376

CONFIDENTIAL

Case: 2:18-cv-00272-MHW-CMV Doc #: 64 Filed: 01/14/20 Page: 84 of 136 PAGEID #: 2201
1 gender and sex. Is that your testimony?

2 MS. BONHAM: Objection. Objection.

3 Misstates testimony. Calls for expert

4 testimony.

5 THE WITNESS: I can't answer for

6 every doctor out there, what they're thinking.

7 There are certain people that know very well

8 that this term is just something used to get

9 people treatment, and it does not mean

10 biological sex and gender identity are

11 different.

12 Q. Which people know that?

13 A. I don't understand that question.

14 Q. Well, you said there are certain

15 people out there who know that these two things

16 don't mean biological sex and gender identity

17 are different. I'm just curious to know what

18 your understanding is of who those people are.

19 A. Well, the people who know their

20 head from their ass from a hole in the ground.

21 Q. Okay. So --

22 A. There's not a specific person I can

23 point to. There are plenty of people who know.

24 Q. Can you name any?

25 A. Can I name, like, specific doctors?

Page 85

Veritext Legal Solutions

www.veritext.com 888-391-3376

CONFIDENTIAL

Case: 2:18-cv-00272-MHW-CMV Doc #: 64 Filed: 01/14/20 Page: 85 of 136 PAGEID #: 2202
1 Q. Sure. Sure.

2 A. No.

3 Q. Okay. You would agree, logically,

4 though, that two items that are incongruent

5 with one another can't be the same, correct?

6 MS. BONHAM: Objection. Vague.

7 THE WITNESS: Two items that are

8 incongruent with each other can't be the same?

9 I'm not sure that I understand. I mean, I see

10 where you're trying to go with that, but I

11 don't really have an answer to that one.

12 Q. So you don't know one way or the

13 other whether incongruence indicates sameness?

14 MS. BONHAM: Objection. Vague.

15 Incomplete hypothetical.

16 THE WITNESS: The terms mean that,

17 but you're applying it to transgender people,

18 which does not apply.

19 Q. Okay. So from a general sense,

20 that might be true, but as applied to

21 transgendered folk, it's your opinion that that

22 is not true, the statement is incorrect?

23 MS. BONHAM: Objection. Misstates

24 testimony. Vague.

25 THE WITNESS: Your statement that

Page 86

Veritext Legal Solutions

www.veritext.com 888-391-3376

CONFIDENTIAL

Case: 2:18-cv-00272-MHW-CMV Doc #: 64 Filed: 01/14/20 Page: 86 of 136 PAGEID #: 2203
1 sex and gender identity are incongruent, I do

2 not agree with.

3 Q. Okay. Even for someone with a

4 diagnosis of gender dysphoria, you disagree

5 that that means that sex and gender are

6 incongruent?

7 MS. BONHAM: Continuing objections

8 to the terms as defendants have defined them.

9 THE WITNESS: Again, my diagnosis

10 is contested and it does not mean the same

11 thing to everyone.

12 MR. BLAKE: All right. Can we take

13 a quick break?

14 MS. BONHAM: Yeah.

15 (Recess taken.)

16 Q. Do you recall when you first

17 realized that the sex identifier on your birth

18 record did not match your gender identity?

19 MS. BONHAM: Objection.

20 THE WITNESS: I honestly don't

21 remember the first time I saw my birth

22 certificate, but it was when I was very young

23 and felt the gender was incorrect on it.

24 Q. You don't remember approximately

25 when that -- that was?

Page 87

Veritext Legal Solutions

www.veritext.com 888-391-3376

CONFIDENTIAL

Case: 2:18-cv-00272-MHW-CMV Doc #: 64 Filed: 01/14/20 Page: 87 of 136 PAGEID #: 2204
1 A. I would guess I was maybe ten.

2 Q. Do you have a driver's license?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Is it issued by the State of Ohio?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. Does that reflect your sex as male

7 or female?

8 A. Male.

9 Q. How often do you update your

10 driver's license?

11 A. Update it how?

12 Q. Well, I mean, have you ever had to

13 update your driver's license?

14 A. Well, I renew it. I mean, not

15 really updating it.

16 Q. Okay. So how many -- so you've

17 renewed your driver's license, I take it,

18 probably several times?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. And you intend to get a driver's

21 license in Colorado, too?

22 A. Yes. I actually tried.

23 Q. Go ahead.

24 A. This comes to one of my -- back to

25 the injury thing that we haven't really talked

Page 88

Veritext Legal Solutions

www.veritext.com 888-391-3376

CONFIDENTIAL

Case: 2:18-cv-00272-MHW-CMV Doc #: 64 Filed: 01/14/20 Page: 88 of 136 PAGEID #: 2205
1 about, but I tried to get my Colorado Driver's

2 License and I brought all the paperwork they

3 said I needed, Social Security card, passport,

4 and two pieces of mail, I think, and they would

5 not process my driver's license here because my

6 middle initial is "J" and they said that they

7 had to see my birth certificate because they

8 did not believe that my middle initial was just

9 "J" and they wanted to see my whole,

10 quote/unquote, middle name, so I have not been

11 able to get my driver's license yet and I will

12 be forced to show them my birth certificate

13 with the incorrect gender on it.

14 Q. Are you fearful that someone at the

15 Colorado Bureau of Motor Vehicles is going to

16 injure or harm you when you show them your

17 birth certificate?

18 A. My usual experience with showing

19 bureaucratic officials my birth certificate is

20 that they treat me very poorly and then do

21 whatever they can to make it more difficult to

22 get whatever I'm trying to do done.

23 Q. But you don't fear bodily harm by

24 the Colorado official, right?

25 A. I don't fear bodily harm, I just

Page 89

Veritext Legal Solutions

www.veritext.com 888-391-3376

CONFIDENTIAL

Case: 2:18-cv-00272-MHW-CMV Doc #: 64 Filed: 01/14/20 Page: 89 of 136 PAGEID #: 2206
1 know that there's emotional trepidation and it

2 will not be pleasant.

3 Q. All right. So you talked about

4 having to renew your Ohio Driver's License

5 periodically while you were a resident of Ohio,

6 and acknowledging now that you're a resident of

7 Colorado, you're going to need to get a

8 Colorado Driver's License. When you've

9 conducted these renewals, have you ever changed

10 your hair color on your driver's license?

11 A. I don't believe so.

12 Q. Have you ever changed your weight?

13 A. Yes. My weight has changed over

14 the years.

15 Q. And you've updated that information

16 on your driver's license, right?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. What about your address, have you

19 ever had to update or change your address on a

20 driver's license?

21 A. Yes. At least one time when it was

22 renewed, yeah.

23 Q. When you initially got your

24 driver's license in the State of Ohio, what sex

25 did you put on it?

Page 90

Veritext Legal Solutions

www.veritext.com 888-391-3376

CONFIDENTIAL

Case: 2:18-cv-00272-MHW-CMV Doc #: 64 Filed: 01/14/20 Page: 90 of 136 PAGEID #: 2207
1 A. When I first got my driver's

2 license, they, of course, forced me to put

3 female.

4 Q. And when did you change it to male?

5 A. Around 2000, I believe.

6 Q. Was that before or after you had

7 underwent transition?

8 A. After.

9 Q. Have you ever been pulled over?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. And when you were pulled over, the

12 officer asked you to show your driver's

13 license, among other things, right?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. Did police officer ever ask you for

16 your birth certificate during a traffic stop?

17 A. They don't have for people's birth

18 certificate at a traffic stop.

19 Q. You would agree that a driver's

20 license needs to be current so that law

21 enforcement can, you know, do its law

22 enforcement job, right?

23 MS. BONHAM: Objection.

24 Foundation. Calls for speculation.

25 THE WITNESS: It's to be updated to

Page 91

Veritext Legal Solutions

www.veritext.com 888-391-3376

CONFIDENTIAL

Case: 2:18-cv-00272-MHW-CMV Doc #: 64 Filed: 01/14/20 Page: 91 of 136 PAGEID #: 2208
1 circumstances. So it's, you know, human using

2 the identity document has, you know, their full

3 dignity, yeah.

4 Q. Have you ever used your birth

5 certificate to buy beer?

6 A. That's not a thing.

7 Q. Have you ever used your birth

8 certificate to get into an R rated movie?

9 A. That's not a thing either.

10 Q. Have you ever used your birth

11 certificate to get into a bar?

12 A. None of these things you're listing

13 would accept a birth certificate.

14 Q. What about to verify a credit card

15 purchase?

16 A. I don't believe, no. They wouldn't

17 accept that, I'm sure.

18 Q. Have you ever had to show your

19 birth certificate to TSA when boarding a plane?

20 A. No. They wouldn't accept that.

21 Q. What about renting a car?

22 A. No.

23 Q. But in all those circumstances, you

24 have used your driver's license or other state

25 identification, right?

Page 92

Veritext Legal Solutions

www.veritext.com 888-391-3376

CONFIDENTIAL

Case: 2:18-cv-00272-MHW-CMV Doc #: 64 Filed: 01/14/20 Page: 92 of 136 PAGEID #: 2209
1 A. Yes, but that doesn't mean I don't

2 also need a birth certificate.

3 Q. And you would agree that a driver's

4 license is a much different form of

5 identification document than a birth

6 certificate, right?

7 MS. BONHAM: Objection. Calls for

8 a legal conclusion. Argumentative.

9 THE WITNESS: No. I don't consider

10 them much different. I consider them that they

11 have separate uses in certain situations.

12 Q. Well, we've identified some very

13 common uses for state identification document

14 or a driver's license, and you've testified

15 that none of those -- the birth certificates

16 are used in none of those circumstances, but

17 nevertheless, it's still your testimony that

18 they're similar documents?

19 A. They are both identity documents

20 that every person needs to have in their life

21 and it needs to be accurate.

22 Q. Your picture is not on your birth

23 certificate, right?

24 A. Right.

25 Q. You don't routinely carry your

Page 93

Veritext Legal Solutions

www.veritext.com 888-391-3376

CONFIDENTIAL

Case: 2:18-cv-00272-MHW-CMV Doc #: 64 Filed: 01/14/20 Page: 93 of 136 PAGEID #: 2210
1 birth certificate with you when you go places,

2 right?

3 A. No.

4 Q. How many times a month would you

5 say you look at your birth certificate?

6 A. I don't look at it on purpose

7 because it's upsetting that it has an incorrect

8 gender on it.

9 Q. So less than one time per month?

10 A. I only get it out when I absolutely

11 need to.

12 Q. How many times a month would you

13 say you handle or look at your Ohio Driver's

14 License?

15 A. Probably at least every other day.

16 Q. All right. Let's go to Exhibit 2.

17 Let me know when you have it in front of you.

18 A. Okay.

19 Q. All right. What is -- what has

20 been marked as Defendants' Exhibit 2 is a copy

21 of the complaint, which you filed with others

22 against ODH. Do you see that?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. Have you seen this document before?

25 A. Yes.

Page 94

Veritext Legal Solutions

www.veritext.com 888-391-3376

CONFIDENTIAL

Case: 2:18-cv-00272-MHW-CMV Doc #: 64 Filed: 01/14/20 Page: 94 of 136 PAGEID #: 2211
1 Q. Did you provide information to

2 counsel so that they could prepare this

3 document and make the allegations contained

4 within it?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. All right. Turn to Page 14, if you

7 would. Let me know when you're there.

8 A. Okay.

9 Q. Paragraph 59 just states that:

10 Plaintiff, Basil Argento, is a 42-year-old man

11 who was born in Tuscarawas County, Ohio, and

12 currently resides in Columbus, Ohio.

13 Do you see that?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. That's, obviously, not correct.

16 Since the time that this was filed, you've

17 moved to Colorado, right?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Okay. If you turn to the next

20 page, Page 15, and go to Paragraph 67. Let me

21 know when you're there.

22 A. Okay.

23 Q. Paragraph 67 describes an incident

24 when you attempted to get an Italian passport,

25 right?

Page 95

Veritext Legal Solutions

www.veritext.com 888-391-3376

CONFIDENTIAL

Case: 2:18-cv-00272-MHW-CMV Doc #: 64 Filed: 01/14/20 Page: 95 of 136 PAGEID #: 2212
1 A. Yes.

2 Q. And you presented the consular

3 officials at the Italian Consulate with your

4 birth certificate, right?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. And the birth record indicates your

7 birth sex as female, correct?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. And you also presented the consular

10 officials with your driver's license, right?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. Which indicates your sex is male,

13 correct?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. And the consular officials told you

16 that they did not know how to proceed with

17 processing your application for an Italian

18 passport in that circumstance, right?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. And that resulted in a lot of back

21 and forth between you and the officials at the

22 Italian Consulate, right?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. And the correspondence, phone

25 calls, I presume e-mails, went on for over a

Page 96

Veritext Legal Solutions

www.veritext.com 888-391-3376

CONFIDENTIAL

Case: 2:18-cv-00272-MHW-CMV Doc #: 64 Filed: 01/14/20 Page: 96 of 136 PAGEID #: 2213
1 year, right?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. You tried to get the Consulate to

4 process your application, and they would say

5 they couldn't do it, right?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. And the reason why they couldn't do

8 it was this incongruence between the sex

9 identified on your birth certificate as female

10 and the sex identified on your driver's license

11 as male; is that accurate?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. But, eventually, they did figure

14 out how to do it and they processed your

15 application, right?

16 A. They did. It took three years

17 instead of the typical one year it would take

18 for a cisgendered person. It took extra -- I

19 had to drive from Columbus to Detroit extra

20 times. And also, now, I'm trying to get them

21 to issue my passport, which would be absolutely

22 no problem for a cisgendered person, but they

23 will not issue my passport due to still this

24 problem with the gender being wrong on my birth

25 certificate.

Page 97

Veritext Legal Solutions

www.veritext.com 888-391-3376

CONFIDENTIAL

Case: 2:18-cv-00272-MHW-CMV Doc #: 64 Filed: 01/14/20 Page: 97 of 136 PAGEID #: 2214
1 Q. All right. So you're a citizen of

2 Italy, but you don't yet have the passport; is

3 that accurate?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. Okay. When you presented your

6 birth record to the consular officials at the

7 Italian Consulate, were you in any way fearful

8 that you were going to be physically harmed by

9 those officials?

10 A. There are cameras in places like

11 that, so, of course, nobody working at the

12 consulate was going to physically harm me.

13 Q. All right. And you would agree

14 that it's not the Ohio Department of Health's

15 responsibility to set the guidelines for what

16 Italy requires to grant citizenship to a

17 foreign-born individual?

18 MS. BONHAM: Objection. Vague.

19 Compound. Calls for legal conclusions.

20 Foundation.

21 THE WITNESS: My opinion is the

22 ability to have documents reflect the living

23 people's circumstances because birth

24 certificates are for use by living people.

25 Q. But that doesn't answer the

Page 98

Veritext Legal Solutions

www.veritext.com 888-391-3376

CONFIDENTIAL

Case: 2:18-cv-00272-MHW-CMV Doc #: 64 Filed: 01/14/20 Page: 98 of 136 PAGEID #: 2215
1 question. ODH has no responsibility over

2 whether the Italian Consulate grants

3 citizenship to a U.S. born individual, right?

4 MS. BONHAM: Objection. Calls for

5 a legal conclusion.

6 THE WITNESS: They're not

7 responsible for that, however -- for that

8 specific thing, however, they are -- they

9 should be responsible to make someone's birth

10 certificate accurate. And if I had -- if I

11 had -- if I were a cis person, then this

12 process would have been easy and, you know, it

13 would have been less expensive and less

14 harrowing.

15 Q. I mean, that's your opinion that if

16 you were a cis person, the process would have

17 been easier. I mean, you don't know that for a

18 fact, right?

19 A. I do know that for a fact. There

20 are forums online where people talk about how

21 long it took them, and the average is one year

22 for somebody who doesn't even have their

23 documents completely all together, and I had my

24 documents all completely together and it took

25 three years.

Page 99

Veritext Legal Solutions

www.veritext.com 888-391-3376

CONFIDENTIAL

Case: 2:18-cv-00272-MHW-CMV Doc #: 64 Filed: 01/14/20 Page: 99 of 136 PAGEID #: 2216
1 Q. Would you consider yourself an

2 expert on what it takes to obtain Italian

3 citizenship?

4 A. That depends on your definition of

5 expert. Do I know all the ins and outs of it,

6 yes.

7 Q. Okay. So it's based on your

8 expert -- on your expert opinion that one year

9 should be all that's required to obtain -- for

10 U.S. born citizen to obtain Italian

11 citizenship?

12 MS. BONHAM: Objection. Misstates

13 testimony. He's obviously testifying as a lay

14 witness.

15 THE WITNESS: Yes. My opinion and

16 from what I've seen and read is the average is

17 one year.

18 Q. Other than what you've read on, I

19 assume, what is the Italian Consulate's

20 website, do you have any personal experience

21 with how long it would take a cisgendered

22 person to obtain their Italian citizenship?

23 A. No, other than online forums. They

24 were not on the Consulate website.

25 Q. Okay. And ODH doesn't have any

Page 100

Veritext Legal Solutions

www.veritext.com 888-391-3376

CONFIDENTIAL

Case: 2:18-cv-00272-MHW-CMV Doc #: 64 Filed: 01/14/20 Page: 100 of 136 PAGEID #: 2217
1 control over how long it takes Italy to process

2 citizenship requests, right?

3 MS. BONHAM: Objection. Calls for

4 a legal conclusion.

5 THE WITNESS: They only have

6 control over whether they update my birth

7 certificate to be correct or not.

8 Q. So that's a no, ODH doesn't have

9 any control, right?

10 MS. BONHAM: Objection.

11 THE WITNESS: They only have

12 control, again, over my birth certificate.

13 They don't have control over any other

14 authorities.

15 Q. They don't dictate what information

16 Italy requires to process its passport

17 applications, right?

18 A. No, but they dictate what

19 information they're going to get.

20 Q. They dictate -- they dictate what

21 information is reported at the time of birth

22 and reflected on the birth certificate. Is

23 there any other information that ODH dictates?

24 MS. BONHAM: Objection. Compound.

25 THE WITNESS: It's not just what

Page 101

Veritext Legal Solutions

www.veritext.com 888-391-3376

CONFIDENTIAL

Case: 2:18-cv-00272-MHW-CMV Doc #: 64 Filed: 01/14/20 Page: 101 of 136 PAGEID #: 2218
1 was recorded at birth, it is a reflection of my

2 current -- should be a reflection of my current

3 reality, such as name and things like that, so,

4 I mean, that's what they have control over.

5 Q. Okay. Do you know why Italy or the

6 Italian Consulate requires the sex on your

7 birth certificate and driver's license to

8 match?

9 MS. BONHAM: Objection.

10 Foundation.

11 THE WITNESS: They told me many

12 things over three years. One thing they say,

13 they could write down two things that mismatch,

14 then they told me it still took as long as it

15 did. And then now for my passport, they

16 won't -- they won't give me a passport with,

17 you know, even the wrong gender on it because

18 they said that if it's a male name, it has to

19 say male, but they won't put male on it because

20 my birth certificate is wrong.

21 Q. Do you have a U.S. passport?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. What is the sex reflect on your

24 U.S. passport?

25 A. Male.

Page 102

Veritext Legal Solutions

www.veritext.com 888-391-3376

CONFIDENTIAL

Case: 2:18-cv-00272-MHW-CMV Doc #: 64 Filed: 01/14/20 Page: 102 of 136 PAGEID #: 2219
1 Q. Have you been issued any sort of

2 identification or citizenship card from Italy?

3 A. No. All I have is an e-mail

4 stating that I'm in the system now and I have

5 to send in a form that has my current address

6 updated.

7 Q. Are you working towards getting

8 your Italian passport?

9 A. I am going to. I haven't moved

10 forward with it over the past however many

11 months it been 'cause I've been busy, but, yes,

12 I am going to do that.

13 Q. What's the next step?

14 A. The next step is probably getting a

15 lawyer, unless Ohio fixes my birth certificate.

16 Otherwise, I'm probably going to get a lawyer

17 in Italy.

18 Q. You said earlier that Italy was

19 originally willing to issue a passport that

20 reflected your sex as female; is that right?

21 A. No. They would not do either

22 because I said, well, if it's wrong, at least

23 I'll have my passport and then I can work

24 towards updating it to the correct gender, but

25 they will not do that because in Italy, if a

Page 103

Veritext Legal Solutions

www.veritext.com 888-391-3376

CONFIDENTIAL

Case: 2:18-cv-00272-MHW-CMV Doc #: 64 Filed: 01/14/20 Page: 103 of 136 PAGEID #: 2220
1 person has a masculine name, then the gender is

2 to be male. I cannot put that on there until

3 my birth certificate is fixed.

4 Q. But at least at some point, you

5 were willing to have an Italian passport that

6 reflected female, right?

7 A. Not willing, per se, but it's

8 better than not having a passport at all

9 because then you can work towards changing it,

10 just like I did with my U.S. passport.

11 Q. You were going to be okay with

12 having a female listed on your passport as long

13 as you could just get the passport initially,

14 right?

15 MS. BONHAM: Objection. Misstates

16 testimony.

17 THE WITNESS: No. I'm not okay

18 with that at all, but it's better than having

19 no passport and no proof that I'm an Italian

20 citizen.

21 Q. Can you turn to Exhibit 9, please?

22 Let me know when you're there.

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. And if you turn to the page Bates

25 numbered 000030, it's five pages into the

Page 104

Veritext Legal Solutions

www.veritext.com 888-391-3376

CONFIDENTIAL

Case: 2:18-cv-00272-MHW-CMV Doc #: 64 Filed: 01/14/20 Page: 104 of 136 PAGEID #: 2221
1 document.

2 A. Okay.

3 Q. This is another e-mail exchange

4 between you and it looks like the Italian

5 Consulate in Detroit. Do you recognize these

6 e-mails?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. To the best of your knowledge, is

9 this e-mail chain a true and accurate copy of

10 the correspondence you had with the Italian

11 consulate on or about April 18th, 2016?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. 2016?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. And it looks like that that

16 correspondence actually began in 2015. And I

17 don't speak Italian, so I don't know what month

18 Giugno is, but I'm going to guess June.

19 A. Yeah.

20 Q. Okay. So it looks like on or about

21 June 25th, 2015, you sent an e-mail to an

22 individual at the Italian Consulate, and the

23 subject was update on case. Do you see that

24 e-mail at the bottom of Bates Page 000030?

25 A. Yes.

Page 105

Veritext Legal Solutions

www.veritext.com 888-391-3376

CONFIDENTIAL

Case: 2:18-cv-00272-MHW-CMV Doc #: 64 Filed: 01/14/20 Page: 105 of 136 PAGEID #: 2222
1 Q. And you say: Signore Paladino,

2 thank you for your help. Do I understand that

3 my legal name change is not recognized by

4 Italy? I don't mind the gender marker being

5 wrong on my Italian passport.

6 Do you see that?

7 A. Yes, I see that.

8 Q. So at least at that time, you

9 didn't mind having an incorrect gender marker

10 on your Italian passport, right?

11 MS. BONHAM: Objection. Misstates

12 testimony and misstates the document, which

13 goes on to say, quote, I will go to Italy and

14 petition for it to be changed later, but I

15 can't live my life as a trans person with the

16 wrong name on my passport.

17 THE WITNESS: I wrote this because,

18 obviously, I'm talking to this bureaucrat. I

19 want him to give me my passport. I do not want

20 the wrong gender on there, but it is far less

21 likely that someone will notice the incorrect

22 gender on the passport than my name being

23 wrong. I am not okay with it being wrong, but

24 I do want my Italian passport.

25 Q. Do you know if the Italian passport

Page 106

Veritext Legal Solutions

www.veritext.com 888-391-3376

CONFIDENTIAL

Case: 2:18-cv-00272-MHW-CMV Doc #: 64 Filed: 01/14/20 Page: 106 of 136 PAGEID #: 2223
1 includes -- is it a sex or gender word that

2 they use to track male or female, do you know?

3 MS. BONHAM: Objection.

4 THE WITNESS: It's the same word,

5 so...

6 Q. They only have the one word for it?

7 A. I'm saying, in English "gender" and

8 "sex" is the same.

9 Q. I got it, I'm just wondering what's

10 actually on the Italian passport, if you know.

11 A. I don't have one yet.

12 Q. Sorry?

13 A. I don't have one yet, so...

14 Q. So you don't know if it says

15 "gender" and "sex" on the passport?

16 A. It makes no difference 'cause

17 that's the same word.

18 Q. Is it the same word in Italian?

19 'Cause it's not the same word in English. I

20 mean, they're two words. Do they only?

21 MS. BONHAM: Objection.

22 THE WITNESS: There are many words

23 in English that mean the same thing.

24 Q. I got it. I'm not asking you

25 whether or not they're synonymous, I'm asking

Page 107

Veritext Legal Solutions

www.veritext.com 888-391-3376

CONFIDENTIAL

Case: 2:18-cv-00272-MHW-CMV Doc #: 64 Filed: 01/14/20 Page: 107 of 136 PAGEID #: 2224
1 you what the actual word is.

2 MS. BONHAM: Objection.

3 Foundation. Vague. It sounds like what you're

4 asking him is to define a word that's disputed

5 in this case in English in Italian.

6 MR. BLAKE: Nope. That's not what

7 I'm doing at all.

8 MS. BONHAM: Okay. What's --

9 Q. The U.S. passport says the word

10 "sex" on it, right?

11 A. I honestly don't know because I

12 read those words at the same. I don't know

13 which one.

14 Q. So "sex" is spelled out s-e-x,

15 right?

16 A. Yes. S-e-x spells sex, and it is

17 the same word as "gender," though, in my

18 opinion.

19 Q. Your testimony is that it means the

20 same word, but they are, in fact, different

21 words. They appear in different locations in

22 the dictionary, right?

23 A. Uh-huh.

24 Q. One has three letters and one has

25 six, seven?

Page 108

Veritext Legal Solutions

www.veritext.com 888-391-3376

CONFIDENTIAL

Case: 2:18-cv-00272-MHW-CMV Doc #: 64 Filed: 01/14/20 Page: 108 of 136 PAGEID #: 2225
1 A. Yeah. Like kindergarten all over.

2 Q. I guess it's six letters, right?

3 A. I don't know which one's on there.

4 I never noticed. Like I said, those words mean

5 the same thing to me.

6 Q. I got it. I was just asking in

7 case you knew. Do you know if -- well, is the

8 Italian passport written in English or Italian?

9 A. It's written in Italian.

10 Q. Okay. Do you speak Italian?

11 A. A little bit. I believe it says

12 "sex," but I could not tell you for certain.

13 Q. Well, I was going to ask you that.

14 Do you know what the Italian word is for "sex"?

15 MS. BONHAM: Objection. Go ahead.

16 THE WITNESS: "Sessuale."

17 Q. "Sessuale." And that's, what,

18 probably spelled s-e-x-u-a-l or something like

19 that?

20 A. No. I think it's s-e-s-s-u-a-l-e,

21 but I could be wrong.

22 Q. And do you know if there's an

23 Italian word for "gender"?

24 MS. BONHAM: Objection.

25 THE WITNESS: I'm sure there is.

Page 109

Veritext Legal Solutions

www.veritext.com 888-391-3376

CONFIDENTIAL

Case: 2:18-cv-00272-MHW-CMV Doc #: 64 Filed: 01/14/20 Page: 109 of 136 PAGEID #: 2226
1 Q. But you don't know?

2 A. I don't know it.

3 Q. You don't know it.

4 A. It may be the same word.

5 Q. Okay. But at least at -- when you

6 were writing that e-mail to the Italian

7 Consulate in Detroit, you were okay with the

8 sessuale -- the sessuale entry on your passport

9 being female so long as you could just get the

10 passport, right?

11 A. It was more important to me to get

12 the passport than not have the passport, yes,

13 but I'm not okay with it saying the wrong

14 thing. I would want it changed, but it was a

15 step in the right direction.

16 Q. Do you travel a lot

17 internationally?

18 A. A lot, no.

19 Q. In the last five years, have you

20 had to use your passport?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. And because you don't have an

23 Italian passport yet, you've had to use your

24 U.S. passport, right?

25 A. Yes.

Page 110

Veritext Legal Solutions

www.veritext.com 888-391-3376

CONFIDENTIAL

Case: 2:18-cv-00272-MHW-CMV Doc #: 64 Filed: 01/14/20 Page: 110 of 136 PAGEID #: 2227
1 Q. Had you had your Italian passport

2 issued, would you have used your Italian

3 passport instead of your U.S. passport?

4 A. It depends on the circumstances,

5 but if we were just going on vacation and it

6 was to a country that has no problem with U.S.

7 passports, I would use it.

8 Q. So what countries is it beneficial

9 to use your Italian passport instead of the

10 U.S. passport?

11 A. If you're going to be staying a

12 long time, it is pretty much hassle free if you

13 have an Italian passport.

14 Q. So would you have -- well, have you

15 taken any trips like that in the last five

16 years?

17 A. No, but we plan to. I have family

18 in Italy.

19 Q. So if you had an Italian passport,

20 even with an incorrect designation or what you

21 contend is an incorrect designation, would you

22 use that passport for this upcoming trip to

23 Italy?

24 MS. BONHAM: Objection. Incomplete

25 hypothetical.

Page 111

Veritext Legal Solutions

www.veritext.com 888-391-3376

CONFIDENTIAL

Case: 2:18-cv-00272-MHW-CMV Doc #: 64 Filed: 01/14/20 Page: 111 of 136 PAGEID #: 2228
1 THE WITNESS: Well, most likely,

2 I'm going to go to Italy to get this corrected

3 unless Ohio updates my birth certificate, so

4 yes, I would have to.

5 Q. And in doing so, you would have to

6 show people, either the TSA agents or the

7 people at the port of entry, this passport with

8 the female designation on it, right?

9 MS. BONHAM: Objection. Incomplete

10 hypothetical. He, obviously, doesn't have the

11 hypothetical document 'cause he can't get it.

12 THE WITNESS: Yeah. And that's not

13 something that anyone wants to do. To have an

14 identity document with the wrong gender on it

15 is very stressful.

16 Q. But you nevertheless would disclose

17 this document with that female sex designation

18 on it instead of showing them the U.S.

19 passport, which has the male sex designation on

20 it, right?

21 MS. BONHAM: Objection. Misstates

22 testimony. Incomplete hypothetical.

23 THE WITNESS: Only when it was

24 necessary. I wouldn't use it as a preference,

25 I would want a document that was correct.

Page 112

Veritext Legal Solutions

www.veritext.com 888-391-3376

CONFIDENTIAL

Case: 2:18-cv-00272-MHW-CMV Doc #: 64 Filed: 01/14/20 Page: 112 of 136 PAGEID #: 2229
1 Q. But when traveling to Italy to

2 attempt to change this designation, you would

3 use the Italian passport, right?

4 MS. BONHAM: Objection. There's --

5 it appears there's a misunderstanding, and I

6 just want the record --

7 MR. BLAKE: Well, let him clear it

8 up. If you think it's inaccurate, let him

9 clear it up. We don't need speaking

10 objections. If there's a misunderstanding, let

11 him answer, you can object, and then we can

12 take it from there. I don't want to hear your

13 characterization of what you think the

14 misunderstanding is, I want to hear his

15 testimony, okay?

16 MS. BONHAM: I understand, but I'm

17 telling you, you're continually asking

18 questions that seem to have the premise wrong,

19 and we can go off the record and correct it. I

20 think it's a true misunderstanding, but we can

21 continue. That's your prerogative.

22 MR. BLAKE: Thank you.

23 Q. Go ahead.

24 A. I am not sure what choice you think

25 I would have if I had this passport, which I

Page 113

Veritext Legal Solutions

www.veritext.com 888-391-3376

CONFIDENTIAL

Case: 2:18-cv-00272-MHW-CMV Doc #: 64 Filed: 01/14/20 Page: 113 of 136 PAGEID #: 2230
1 don't. I would have to take it there and show

2 it to people for a change. There would be no

3 other option, but I don't have it because of

4 this situation. I don't have my passport,

5 correct or incorrect.

6 Q. I guess I was talking about when

7 you physically got on the plane to Italy,

8 right, and when you go through customs, right,

9 they -- you show them a passport and they stamp

10 it to let you in, would you use the U.S.

11 passport with the male identifier on it to go

12 through that process or would you use the

13 as-of-yet un-obtained Italian passport with the

14 incorrect, according to you, female designation

15 for sex?

16 MS. BONHAM: Objection.

17 Hypothetical.

18 THE WITNESS: I would consult with

19 the Italian lawyer and ask them if it was the

20 correct thing to do.

21 Q. Okay. 'Cause you think it might be

22 required -- if you have the Italian passport to

23 travel to Italy, it might be required to use

24 that, the Italian passport versus the U.S.

25 passport?

Page 114

Veritext Legal Solutions

www.veritext.com 888-391-3376

CONFIDENTIAL

Case: 2:18-cv-00272-MHW-CMV Doc #: 64 Filed: 01/14/20 Page: 114 of 136 PAGEID #: 2231
1 A. Yes.

2 Q. Okay. You just don't know if

3 that's true. If it's not true, you would use

4 the document with the male sex identifier on

5 it, right?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Okay. All right. If you go to the

8 next page -- sorry, Page 17, Paragraph 77. Let

9 me know when you're there. We're on exhibit --

10 we're still on Exhibit 2.

11 A. Okay.

12 Q. Paragraph 77, you state that you

13 have been required to show your birth

14 certificate in other contexts. Do you see

15 that?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. We've talked about the Italian

18 Consulate, we've talked about the upcoming

19 incident or upcoming occurrence with the --

20 with Colorado. What other -- what other

21 incidents have you been required to show your

22 birth certificate?

23 A. When I originally tried to change

24 my Social Security information, I went into the

25 office in San Jose, California where I lived at

Page 115

Veritext Legal Solutions

www.veritext.com 888-391-3376

CONFIDENTIAL

Case: 2:18-cv-00272-MHW-CMV Doc #: 64 Filed: 01/14/20 Page: 115 of 136 PAGEID #: 2232
1 the time and gave them my birth certificate and

2 had to fill out the forms, said I wanted to

3 update it, and the guy just looked at me like I

4 was crazy. Said he had no idea what to do, so

5 he went in the back. But when he went to the

6 back, one at a time, all the other people that

7 worked in the office came up to the window,

8 practically pressed their face against the

9 window and then left. And they did this, there

10 were, like, ten of them. They all each came

11 and stared at me. And then he came back and

12 said they can't change it, and that was the end

13 of that. So they basically all treated me like

14 a zoo specimen and then did not update my

15 information.

16 Q. Did you feel bodily harm from the

17 Social Security Administration in San Jose?

18 A. It was not bodily harm, it was

19 emotional distress.

20 Q. Do you believe that ODH had

21 anything to do with the policies and rules of

22 the Social Security Administration in San Jose,

23 California?

24 A. Well, indirectly, all of this is

25 due to them not doing the simple thing of

Page 116

Veritext Legal Solutions

www.veritext.com 888-391-3376

CONFIDENTIAL

Case: 2:18-cv-00272-MHW-CMV Doc #: 64 Filed: 01/14/20 Page: 116 of 136 PAGEID #: 2233
1 updating my birth certificate to reflect my

2 reality.

3 Q. ODH doesn't control the way in

4 which employees of the federal government at an

5 office in San Jose, California react to the

6 recordation of female on your birth

7 certificate, right?

8 MS. BONHAM: Objection. Calls for

9 a legal conclusion. Argumentative.

10 THE WITNESS: They're responsible

11 for the fact that I have to disclose that in

12 the first place.

13 Q. ODH is responsible for the policy

14 or the rule that requires the Social Security

15 Administration to review your birth

16 certificate?

17 MS. BONHAM: Same objection.

18 Misstates testimony.

19 THE WITNESS: They're responsible

20 for not updating my birth certificate and

21 forcing me to out myself to bureaucratic

22 officials.

23 Q. But they're not acting in their

24 official capacity, right?

25 MS. BONHAM: Objection. Calls for

Page 117

Veritext Legal Solutions

www.veritext.com 888-391-3376

CONFIDENTIAL

Case: 2:18-cv-00272-MHW-CMV Doc #: 64 Filed: 01/14/20 Page: 117 of 136 PAGEID #: 2234
1 a legal conclusion. Vague.

2 THE WITNESS: Who was acting in

3 their official capacity?

4 Q. These employees. You aren't, like,

5 out in a park or something and they were

6 shaking you down for your birth certificate,

7 right?

8 MS. BONHAM: Objection.

9 THE WITNESS: Well, they require

10 the birth certificate to update the -- well,

11 they didn't update it, but they wanted to see

12 it.

13 Q. And they requested it as part of

14 their duties that they were performing for the

15 Social Security Administration, right?

16 A. Yes. If you can call it their

17 duties staring at someone like a zoo specimen,

18 yes.

19 Q. And ODH doesn't have anything to do

20 with whether or not Administration requires

21 submission of that document, right?

22 MS. BONHAM: Objection. Calls for

23 a legal conclusion.

24 THE WITNESS: ODH does very well

25 and at let living people use documents for all

Page 118

Veritext Legal Solutions

www.veritext.com 888-391-3376

CONFIDENTIAL

Case: 2:18-cv-00272-MHW-CMV Doc #: 64 Filed: 01/14/20 Page: 118 of 136 PAGEID #: 2235
1 kinds of purposes that they need to do in their

2 lives, so yes.

3 Q. Yes, what?

4 A. They are responsible for that.

5 Q. So when or upon what basis do

6 you -- do you claim that ODH has set the

7 requirements or directed the Social Security

8 agency to review the birth certificate?

9 MS. BONHAM: Objection. Misstates

10 testimony and calls for a legal conclusion.

11 THE WITNESS: They're not directing

12 them to do anything, all they control is the

13 birth certificate, which they refuse to update.

14 Q. Yeah. ODH is the one that puts the

15 information on the birth certificate, right?

16 A. And refuses to change it, yes.

17 Q. And -- well, they change it

18 pursuant to what their law requires them to do.

19 You would agree with that, right?

20 MS. BONHAM: Objection. Calls for

21 a legal conclusion. Argumentative.

22 THE WITNESS: I don't know what

23 their law is.

24 Q. Okay. Any other context besides

25 the Social Security agency that Italian

Page 119

Veritext Legal Solutions

www.veritext.com 888-391-3376

CONFIDENTIAL

Case: 2:18-cv-00272-MHW-CMV Doc #: 64 Filed: 01/14/20 Page: 119 of 136 PAGEID #: 2236
1 Consulate and the Colorado Bureau of Motor

2 Vehicles?

3 MS. BONHAM: Yeah. I was also

4 forced to produce my birth certificate when I

5 got married in Buffalo, New York, and they

6 hassled us and we ended up having to go,

7 instead of Buffalo, we had to go to Niagara to

8 get our wedding -- what do you call it -- our

9 marriage license because they just accepted a

10 passport there, and they did not want to accept

11 documents that didn't match at the Buffalo

12 location.

13 Q. All right. And do you -- do you --

14 well, you would agree that the Ohio Department

15 of Health doesn't dictate to whatever official

16 you went to in Buffalo, New York about what

17 documents they require before they issue a

18 marriage license, right?

19 A. Of course they don't dictate to any

20 other authority, they only have control over

21 the birth certificates they refuse to change.

22 Q. And when you presented this birth

23 certificate to the official in Buffalo, New

24 York, you didn't fear bodily harm, did you?

25 A. Again, I don't fear bodily harm

Page 120

Veritext Legal Solutions

www.veritext.com 888-391-3376

CONFIDENTIAL

Case: 2:18-cv-00272-MHW-CMV Doc #: 64 Filed: 01/14/20 Page: 120 of 136 PAGEID #: 2237
1 from government officials. They usually just

2 cause emotional distress.

3 Q. Are there any other circumstances

4 besides the Colorado Bureau of Motor Vehicles,

5 the Italian Consulate, the Social Security

6 Administration and the official in Buffalo, New

7 York who refused to issue the marriage license?

8 MS. BONHAM: Objection. He's

9 previously testified in the litigation that

10 it's impossible to list every such

11 circumstance.

12 THE WITNESS: Another one I can

13 think of off the top of my head is when I went

14 to get my United States passport. Several

15 instances there. My very first passport they

16 issued, they only gave me a one-year limited

17 valid passport that had a phrase in it about

18 the Department of State expressly gives

19 permission to renew this passport, like I was a

20 criminal or something. And then a couple years

21 later, they renewed it one more time and

22 another one-year limited passport. Like, I

23 don't know, maybe 15 years, I had a passport

24 for two years, and when finally -- they changed

25 the law during the Obama administration, I

Page 121

Veritext Legal Solutions

www.veritext.com 888-391-3376

CONFIDENTIAL

Case: 2:18-cv-00272-MHW-CMV Doc #: 64 Filed: 01/14/20 Page: 121 of 136 PAGEID #: 2238
1 went -- you have to go to the post office to

2 present your documents, so I had to give them

3 to postal worker my birth certificate in. And

4 I had gone to a different post office than I

5 normally go to, but it was a gentleman I had

6 seen before, he did not want to be disclosed

7 to. He looked at it and turned 20 shades of

8 red, and so it was very uncomfortable for both

9 of us. And, yeah, so it's just a lot of

10 hassles and a lot of emotional suffering.

11 Q. And like the other circumstances

12 you've described, ODH doesn't set the policies

13 or requirements for the U.S. passport service

14 to what documents they require to issue the

15 passport, right?

16 MS. BONHAM: Objection.

17 THE WITNESS: Of course they don't.

18 They only control their own system and the

19 things that they decide to do. They don't

20 control other authorities.

21 Q. And when you presented the birth

22 certificate to the folks in connection with

23 obtaining your U.S. passport, you did not fear

24 bodily harm, did you?

25 A. Like I said, I don't fear bodily

Page 122

Veritext Legal Solutions

www.veritext.com 888-391-3376

CONFIDENTIAL

Case: 2:18-cv-00272-MHW-CMV Doc #: 64 Filed: 01/14/20 Page: 122 of 136 PAGEID #: 2239
1 harm from government officials.

2 Q. None of these government officials

3 are particularly dangerous, right?

4 MS. BONHAM: Objection.

5 THE WITNESS: I mean, who knows

6 individually what anybody's capable of, but

7 they are in a facility with cameras. They're

8 not going to physically assault me when I come

9 in.

10 Q. Are there any other circumstances

11 which you can recollect as you sit here today?

12 A. That's all I can think of right

13 now.

14 Q. Have you had to produce or provide

15 your birth certificate to anyone in connection

16 with attendance at any school?

17 A. I do not believe so, no.

18 Q. Have you ever showed it to any of

19 your friends?

20 A. No.

21 Q. Have you ever had to show your

22 birth certificate to any medical professionals?

23 A. I don't believe so.

24 Q. Have you ever had to provide your

25 birth certificate to receive any insurance?

Page 123

Veritext Legal Solutions

www.veritext.com 888-391-3376

CONFIDENTIAL

Case: 2:18-cv-00272-MHW-CMV Doc #: 64 Filed: 01/14/20 Page: 123 of 136 PAGEID #: 2240
1 A. I don't believe so.

2 Q. Employee benefits?

3 A. Before I had a passport, yes, I

4 believe I had to show my birth certificate.

5 Yes, I did once.

6 Q. You showed your birth certificate

7 to an employer?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. Which employer?

10 A. It would have been the Kroger

11 company in 2001, maybe.

12 Q. You were applying for a position at

13 Kroger?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. Did you get the job?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. And who did you show your birth

18 certificate to there?

19 A. The HR person.

20 Q. Did they make any comments or

21 remarks about your birth certificate?

22 A. No.

23 Q. Did you fear bodily harm from the

24 HR person at Kroger?

25 A. No.

Page 124

Veritext Legal Solutions

www.veritext.com 888-391-3376

CONFIDENTIAL

Case: 2:18-cv-00272-MHW-CMV Doc #: 64 Filed: 01/14/20 Page: 124 of 136 PAGEID #: 2241
1 Q. Did the HR person harass you in any

2 way?

3 A. No. Kroger is a very -- very --

4 what's the word -- fair.

5 Q. Progressive?

6 A. Yes, progressive. They hire lots

7 of diverse staff.

8 Q. What about any other type of

9 benefits, governmental or anything like that,

10 have you ever had to show your birth

11 certificate in circumstances other than the

12 ones we've already talked about?

13 A. I don't think so.

14 MR. BLAKE: I think that's all I

15 have, Elizabeth.

16 MS. BONHAM: Okay. We'll take a

17 short break. We might have a couple.

18 MR. BLAKE: All right.

19 (Recess taken.)

20 EXAMINATION OF BASIL ARGENTO

21 BY MS. BONHAM:

22 Q. Defendants' counsel has asked you

23 to testify about whether you feel bodily harm

24 or physical harm in instances where you have to

25 disclose your birth certificate. Can you talk

Page 125

Veritext Legal Solutions

www.veritext.com 888-391-3376

CONFIDENTIAL

Case: 2:18-cv-00272-MHW-CMV Doc #: 64 Filed: 01/14/20 Page: 125 of 136 PAGEID #: 2242
1 about what you do feel in those instances?

2 A. Yeah. There's a lot of anxiety

3 about how I'll be treated. As you can see,

4 there are many instances where I was treated

5 poorly and it's a lot of times dehumanizing

6 because I'm telling something very personal

7 about myself that I don't want to be telling, a

8 stranger, especially one that I think is going

9 to use it against me to make my life harder.

10 So, yeah, it's emotional. It takes an

11 emotional toll. And, you know, it's something

12 very simple that the Ohio Department of Health

13 could fix to cause trans people to have a much

14 easier time in their lives and not have to go

15 through this.

16 Q. We've also talked today about

17 several disputed terms and disputed theories

18 around sex and gender in the litigation. Have

19 you hired experts in this litigation?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. And do you work with the experts

22 you've hired?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. Are you relying on them to testify

25 about these matters?

Page 126

Veritext Legal Solutions

www.veritext.com 888-391-3376

CONFIDENTIAL

Case: 2:18-cv-00272-MHW-CMV Doc #: 64 Filed: 01/14/20 Page: 126 of 136 PAGEID #: 2243
1 A. Yes.

2 Q. What are you asking for in the

3 litigation?

4 A. I'm asking for my birth certificate

5 to be corrected to say "male."

6 MS. BONHAM: We don't have anything

7 further.

8 MR. BLAKE: I'm good. I have

9 nothing.

10 MS. BONHAM: Okay. Thanks very

11 much. He'll read and sign.

12 (The deposition was concluded at

13 1:55 p.m.)

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

Page 127

Veritext Legal Solutions

www.veritext.com 888-391-3376

CONFIDENTIAL

Case: 2:18-cv-00272-MHW-CMV Doc #: 64 Filed: 01/14/20 Page: 127 of 136 PAGEID #: 2244
1 Whereupon, counsel was requested to give

2 instruction regarding the witness's review of

3 the transcript pursuant to the Civil Rules.

4

5 SIGNATURE:

6 Transcript review was requested pursuant to the

7 applicable Rules of Civil Procedure.

8

9 TRANSCRIPT DELIVERY:

10 Counsel was requested to give instruction

11 regarding delivery date of transcript.

12 Mr. Blake original regular.

13 Ms. Bonham copy regular.

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

Page 128

Veritext Legal Solutions

www.veritext.com 888-391-3376

CONFIDENTIAL

Case: 2:18-cv-00272-MHW-CMV Doc #: 64 Filed: 01/14/20 Page: 128 of 136 PAGEID #: 2245
1 REPORTER'S CERTIFICATE

2 The State of Ohio, )

3 SS:

4 County of Fairfield. )

5

6 I, Kimberly A. Kaz, RPR, a Notary

7 Public within and for the State of Ohio, duly

8 commissioned and qualified, do hereby certify

9 that the within named witness, BASIL ARGENTO,

10 was by me first duly sworn to testify the

11 truth, the whole truth and nothing but the

12 truth in the cause aforesaid; that the

13 testimony then given by the above-referenced

14 witness was by me reduced to stenotypy in the

15 presence of said witness; afterwards

16 transcribed, and that the foregoing is a true

17 and correct transcription of the testimony so

18 given by the above-referenced witness.

19 I do further certify that this

20 deposition was taken at the time and place in

21 the foregoing caption specified and was

22 completed without adjournment.

23

24

25

Page 129

Veritext Legal Solutions

www.veritext.com 888-391-3376

CONFIDENTIAL

Case: 2:18-cv-00272-MHW-CMV Doc #: 64 Filed: 01/14/20 Page: 129 of 136 PAGEID #: 2246
Case: 2:18-cv-00272-MHW-CMV Doc #: 64 Filed: 01/14/20 Page: 130 of 136 PAGEID #: 2247
1 Veritext Legal Solutions

 1100 Superior Ave

2 Suite 1820

 Cleveland, Ohio 44114

3 Phone: 216-523-1313

4

September 13, 2019

5

To: Ms. Bonham

6

Case Name: Ray, Stacie, et al. v. Director, Ohio Department Of Health,

7 Et Al.

8 Veritext Reference Number: 3493802

9 Witness: Basil Argento Deposition Date: 8/29/2019

10

Dear Sir/Madam:

11

12 Enclosed please find a deposition transcript. Please have the witness

13 review the transcript and note any changes or corrections on the

14 included errata sheet, indicating the page, line number, change, and

15 the reason for the change. Have the witness’ signature notarized and

16 forward the completed page(s) back to us at the Production address

shown

17

above, or email to production-midwest@veritext.com.

18

19 If the errata is not returned within thirty days of your receipt of

20 this letter, the reading and signing will be deemed waived.

21

Sincerely,

22

Production Department

23

24

25 NO NOTARY REQUIRED IN CA

Page 131

Veritext Legal Solutions

www.veritext.com 888-391-3376

CONFIDENTIAL

Case: 2:18-cv-00272-MHW-CMV Doc #: 64 Filed: 01/14/20 Page: 131 of 136 PAGEID #: 2248
1 DEPOSITION REVIEW

 CERTIFICATION OF WITNESS

2

 ASSIGNMENT REFERENCE NO: 3493802

3 CASE NAME: Ray, Stacie, et al. v. Director, Ohio Department

Of Health, Et Al.

 DATE OF DEPOSITION: 8/29/2019

4 WITNESS' NAME: Basil Argento

5 In accordance with the Rules of Civil

 Procedure, I have read the entire transcript of

6 my testimony or it has been read to me.

7 I have made no changes to the testimony

 as transcribed by the court reporter.

8

 _______________ ________________________

9 Date Basil Argento

10 Sworn to and subscribed before me, a

 Notary Public in and for the State and County,

11 the referenced witness did personally appear

 and acknowledge that:

12

 They have read the transcript;

13 They signed the foregoing Sworn

 Statement; and

14 Their execution of this Statement is of

 their free act and deed.

15

 I have affixed my name and official seal

16

 this ______ day of_____________________, 20____.

17

 ___________________________________

18 Notary Public

19 ___________________________________

 Commission Expiration Date

20

21

22

23

24

25

Page 132

Veritext Legal Solutions

www.veritext.com 888-391-3376

CONFIDENTIAL

Case: 2:18-cv-00272-MHW-CMV Doc #: 64 Filed: 01/14/20 Page: 132 of 136 PAGEID #: 2249
1 DEPOSITION REVIEW

 CERTIFICATION OF WITNESS

2

 ASSIGNMENT REFERENCE NO: 3493802

3 CASE NAME: Ray, Stacie, et al. v. Director, Ohio Department

Of Health, Et Al.

 DATE OF DEPOSITION: 8/29/2019

4 WITNESS' NAME: Basil Argento

5 In accordance with the Rules of Civil

 Procedure, I have read the entire transcript of

6 my testimony or it has been read to me.

7 I have listed my changes on the attached

 Errata Sheet, listing page and line numbers as

8 well as the reason(s) for the change(s).

9 I request that these changes be entered

 as part of the record of my testimony.

10

 I have executed the Errata Sheet, as well

11 as this Certificate, and request and authorize

 that both be appended to the transcript of my

12 testimony and be incorporated therein.

13 _______________ ________________________

 Date Basil Argento

14

 Sworn to and subscribed before me, a

15 Notary Public in and for the State and County,

 the referenced witness did personally appear

16 and acknowledge that:

17 They have read the transcript;

 They have listed all of their corrections

18 in the appended Errata Sheet;

 They signed the foregoing Sworn

19 Statement; and

 Their execution of this Statement is of

20 their free act and deed.

21 I have affixed my name and official seal

22 this ______ day of_____________________, 20____.

23 ___________________________________

 Notary Public

24

 ___________________________________

25 Commission Expiration Date

Page 133

Veritext Legal Solutions

www.veritext.com 888-391-3376

CONFIDENTIAL

Case: 2:18-cv-00272-MHW-CMV Doc #: 64 Filed: 01/14/20 Page: 133 of 136 PAGEID #: 2250
CONFIDENTIAL

Case: 2:18-cv-00272-MHW-CMV Doc #: 64 Filed: 01/14/20 Page: 134 of 136 PAGEID #: 2251
)HGHUDO5XOHVRI&LYLO3URFHGXUH

5XOH

H5HYLHZ%\WKH:LWQHVV&KDQJHV

5HYLHZ6WDWHPHQWRI&KDQJHV2QUHTXHVWE\WKH

GHSRQHQWRUDSDUW\EHIRUHWKHGHSRVLWLRQLV

FRPSOHWHGWKHGHSRQHQWPXVWEHDOORZHGGD\V

DIWHUEHLQJQRWLILHGE\WKHRIILFHUWKDWWKH

WUDQVFULSWRUUHFRUGLQJLVDYDLODEOHLQZKLFK

$WRUHYLHZWKHWUDQVFULSWRUUHFRUGLQJDQG

%LIWKHUHDUHFKDQJHVLQIRUPRUVXEVWDQFHWR

VLJQDVWDWHPHQWOLVWLQJWKHFKDQJHVDQGWKH

UHDVRQVIRUPDNLQJWKHP

&KDQJHV,QGLFDWHGLQWKH2IILFHU
V&HUWLILFDWH

7KHRIILFHUPXVWQRWHLQWKHFHUWLILFDWHSUHVFULEHG

E\5XOHIZKHWKHUDUHYLHZZDVUHTXHVWHG

DQGLIVRPXVWDWWDFKDQ\FKDQJHVWKHGHSRQHQW

PDNHVGXULQJWKHGD\SHULRG

',6&/$,0(57+()25(*2,1*)('(5$/352&('85(58/(6

$5(3529,'(')25,1)250$7,21$/385326(621/<

7+($%29(58/(6$5(&855(17$62)$35,/

3/($6(5()(5727+($33/,&$%/()('(5$/58/(6

2)&,9,/352&('85()258372'$7(,1)250$7,21

CONFIDENTIAL

Case: 2:18-cv-00272-MHW-CMV Doc #: 64 Filed: 01/14/20 Page: 135 of 136 PAGEID #: 2252
VERITEXT LEGAL SOLUTIONS 

COMPANY CERTIFICATE AND DISCLOSURE STATEMENT 

Veritext Legal Solutions represents that the 

foregoing transcript is a true, correct and complete 

transcript of the colloquies, questions and answers 

as submitted by the court reporter. Veritext Legal 

Solutions further represents that the attached 

exhibits, if any, are true, correct and complete 

documents as submitted by the court reporter and/or 

attorneys in relation to this deposition and that 

the documents were processed in accordance with 

our litigation support and production standards. 

Veritext Legal Solutions is committed to maintaining 

the confidentiality of client and witness information, 

in accordance with the regulations promulgated under 

the Health Insurance Portability and Accountability 

Act (HIPAA), as amended with respect to protected 

health information and the Gramm-Leach-Bliley Act, as 

amended, with respect to Personally Identifiable 

Information (PII). Physical transcripts and exhibits 

are managed under strict facility and personnel access 

controls. Electronic files of documents are stored 

in encrypted form and are transmitted in an encrypted 

fashion to authenticated parties who are permitted to 

access the material. Our data is hosted in a Tier 4 

SSAE 16 certified facility. 

Veritext Legal Solutions complies with all federal and 

State regulations with respect to the provision of 

court reporting services, and maintains its neutrality 

and independence regardless of relationship or the 

financial outcome of any litigation. Veritext requires 

adherence to the foregoing professional and ethical 

standards from all of its subcontractors in their 

independent contractor agreements. 

Inquiries about Veritext Legal Solutions' 

confidentiality and security policies and practices 

should be directed to Veritext's Client Services 

Associates indicated on the cover of this document or 

at www.veritext.com. 

CONFIDENTIAL

Case: 2:18-cv-00272-MHW-CMV Doc #: 64 Filed: 01/14/20 Page: 136 of 136 PAGEID #: 2253