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 ASRAC MEETING - ADVISORY COMMITTEE MEMBERS

 JUNE 17, 2015

A P P E A R A N C E S

Karim Amrane

Ashley Armstrong

David B. Calabrese

John F. Caskey

Jennifer Cleary

John Cymbalsky

Andrew deLaski

Tom Eckman

Simona Fried

Charles Hon

David Hungerford - via webinar

Diane M. Jakobs

Kelley Kline

John Lebo

Michael J. McCabe

Charles McCrudden

Deborah E. Miller

Mark Weiss

Dave Winningham - via webinar

AUDIO TRANSCRIBED BY KYLIE S. SHEPHERD
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1 P R O C E E D I N G S

2 MS. ARMSTRONG: Do you want me to start or do

3 you want to start?

4 MR. deLASKI: I'll start us. We have an agenda

5 that was just turned in yesterday, everyone should have

6 that in front of them.

7 Why don't we start with some introductions and

8 find out who's here and who we have on the webinar. Let

9 me get this microphone, that will probably help. And

10 then we'll review the agenda.

11 So I'm Andrew deLaski, I'm with the Appliance

12 Standards Awareness Project.

13 MS. JAKOBS: Diane Jakobs with Rheem.

14 MS. KLINE: Kelley Kline with GE.

15 MR. ECKMAN: Tom Eckman, Northwest Power and

16 Conservation Council.

17 MR. CASKEY: John Caskey with NEMA.

18 MS. CLEARY: Jen Cleary with Association of Home

19 Appliance Manufacturers.

20 MR. HON: Charlie Hon with True Manufacturing.

21 MS. ARMSTRONG: Ashley Armstrong, DOE.

22 MS. MILLER: Deborah Miller National Association

23 State Energy Officials.

24 MR. deLASKI: Do we have some participants from

25 the committee on the webinar?
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1 MS. ARMSTRONG: Yeah, so Alex, is -- can you

2 unmute Dave's line -- Hungerford?

3 MR. HUNGERFORD: Hi, this is David Hungerford.

4 I'm getting feedback, so can you hear me?

5 MS. ARMSTRONG: We can hear you.

6 MR. deLASKI: Great. And then John Mandyck sent

7 his regrets, he's traveling for business in Europe this

8 week and Scott Harris sent us a note this morning

9 indicating that he's in for surgery tomorrow. And I

10 don't know whether that's our full complement or not. Am

11 I forgetting anybody?

12 MS. ARMSTRONG: That's everybody.

13 MR. deLASKI: Okay. So we have quorum. So for

14 the agenda that was sent around, I thought we should

15 first take a look at the minutes from the last meeting,

16 we'll approve those. Let's look at the agenda now.

17 We're going to start with updates for the

18 current working groups that have been trotted by us

19 earlier this year. We have an agreement on a terms sheet

20 for rooftop units that was approved by the working group

21 on Monday and distributed to this group yesterday for our

22 consideration.

23 Updates on commercial and industrial fans

24 working group, and the miscellaneous refrigeration

25 working group, and then we have a new request from a
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1 working group that came in to the committee last week

2 from AHRI and Lennox for a working group to be formed on

3 central air conditioners. I think that's got other

4 organizations supporting it, as well, I think from Hardy

5 and ACCA I think yesterday.

6 We'll break for lunch around 12:15, and then in

7 the afternoon we'll continue the conversations that we

8 began at our last meeting in terms of this committee

9 fulfilling its charge to provide broader cross-cutting

10 advice to the program and how the program could be --

11 could be more -- could improve its effectiveness.

12 Hopefully we'll have updates from the subgroups

13 that we formed last time on what they've been able to

14 accomplish since then and continue some of those

15 discussions. And we'll leave a little time at the end

16 for -- to make sure we have time for other topics.

17 Are there other things that people want to talk

18 about today that don't show up on this agenda somewhere?

19 Do we need to make any adjustments to the agenda?

20 Okay. I'm hearing none. Why don't we take a

21 look at the minutes from last time. People have a chance

22 to read those? Any concern with those notes or minutes?

23 Motion to approve the minutes?

24 MR. HUNGERFORD: This is David, wait a minute,

25 wait, wait, wait. On the fourth page -- I'm getting
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1 feedback so it's sort of odd. The -- at the top, there's

2 the bullet that talks about if we move to a system

3 efficiency that we have to agree to a system efficiency

4 and that's got a form efficiency metric. I think what we

5 were trying to say was form factor there.

6 MR. deLASKI: Yeah, I see the bullet, David.

7 I'm not sure what the edit is that the correction would

8 be.

9 MR. HUNGERFORD: The sentence is a little

10 confused. But I think the fundamental idea was the use

11 of the term "form factor," but that's the problem with

12 efficiency is that it's difficult to define the form

13 factor.

14 MR. deLASKI: So maybe it should be then we have

15 to agree on a system efficiency --

16 MR. HUNGERFORD: Then it creates problems for

17 defining a form factor.

18 MR. deLASKI: Yeah. Maybe we should just edit,

19 "which creates challenges for defining the form factor."

20 MR. HUNGERFORD: That works, thanks.

21 MR. deLASKI: Everybody okay with that; David's

22 edit? Any objections?

23 MALE SPEAKER: David's edit?

24 MR. deLASKI: If we move to a system efficiency,

25 then we have to agree to a system efficiency which
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1 creates challenges for defining the form factor.

2 MR. HUNGERFORD: I think leaving out that "then

3 we have to agree to a system efficiency," I don't -- it's

4 sort of redundant.

5 MR. deLASKI: Yeah, I mean, these are notes. I

6 don't think we have to -- we probably were redundant when

7 we said it, too.

8 Need a couple more minutes to glance through

9 these or are we ready to approve the minutes? I see

10 people sort of reading, so I'll let you -- another minute

11 or two.

12 All right. Is there a motion to approve the

13 minutes? Seconded. Anybody object? Okay. First piece

14 of business done.

15 So let's move on to our second major item:

16 Updates on the current working groups. I think it falls

17 to me to report on the progress of the commercial AC and

18 furnace working group. I served on that working group

19 along with John Cymbalsky for DOE, as well as

20 representatives from several other organizations here

21 today. Charlie McCrudden, who's in the audience, was in

22 the working group. As well as --

23 MS. JAKOBS: I was an alternate.

24 MR. deLASKI: Diane's organization -- Karen

25 Meyers from Rheem, Diane was an alternate. And I'm
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1 looking around here for others who were participants of

2 the working group. Of course Karim attended the meetings

3 and Dave Calabrese's company, Daikin Goodman, was

4 represented. Michael was here on behalf of Lennox who

5 also served on the working group.

6 FEMALE SPEAKER: Trane.

7 MR. deLASKI: Excuse me, thank you. Michael was

8 here on behalf of Trane.

9 So it was -- so we have a terms sheet which was

10 distributed to the -- to the committee yesterday and also

11 is part of the committee packet. This term sheet was

12 finalized in an all-day webinar on Monday. I want to

13 make it -- before I talk about sort of the elements of

14 the terms sheet, let me just make a couple of sort of

15 overall observations about the process here.

16 You know, the first thing I think it's important

17 to recognize is that DOE chartered this working group

18 back in April. We recognized they had a very short -- we

19 had a very short time frame to get this work done. I

20 think there was some initial, like, "Geez, how are you

21 going to get that done in just a couple of months?" DOE

22 had already published a proposed rule, it was clearly a

23 priority for the agency given the large energy savings at

24 stake and priority for many of us given the potential

25 savings opportunity identified in the proposed rule
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1 issued in 2014.

2 But there was a desire on the part of industry

3 to bring together the compliance dates for rooftop units

4 and for commercial air conditioners -- I'm sorry,

5 commercial furnaces -- given that they're part of the

6 same box in many cases. And a desire to -- to -- to

7 approach this one through our negotiated rulemaking.

8 So this committee approved that working group.

9 We formed pretty quickly in April, and it was under --

10 work was underway as of mid-April. So I think it's a

11 real credit to everybody involved in that working group

12 to be able to totally buckle down and to be disciplined

13 and to focus and to get to a consensus -- which was

14 unanimous -- in just a couple of months.

15 Now, as someone who served in the working group,

16 I can speak specifically to sort of the spirit of

17 cooperation and the -- again, the discipline of the group

18 in staying focused on task on trying to solve some very

19 specific questions about standards and levels, and also

20 addressing concerns about test methods, but recognizing

21 that we have to -- that the rule was set for us in the

22 sense that we couldn't change it for this iteration. But

23 we also wanted to be sure that we had an opportunity to

24 address long-standing concerns or address -- have a

25 longer-term strategy for tackling test method concerns.
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1 The committee itself was broadly representative,

2 it included representatives from the manufacturers,

3 representative from installers, Charlie's organization,

4 The Air Conditioning Contractors Association of America,

5 from the sheet metal workers -- sheet metal SMACMA -- I'm

6 going to have trouble with the acronym, but the Sheet

7 Metal Companies Contractors Association. It also

8 included representatives from efficiency organizations,

9 environmental organizations, and utility companies. So

10 we had broad representation.

11 And then of course in this committee here, we

12 have, you know, representation from a lot of those same

13 stakeholders. In addition, we have representatives from

14 State government, of course, here today, NASEO and Dave

15 Hungerford who's representing the State of California,

16 demonstrating the broad support that we have in these

17 committees that we're forming to tackle -- come up with

18 recommendations for joint -- for new standards.

19 One of the things that came forward during the

20 process that I think is important for this committee to

21 understand is that we, as a committee, had posed some

22 questions to the department about some of the things that

23 we thought we needed to get flexibility to open up

24 pathways to outcomes that would meet all the

25 participants' needs most effectively.
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1 So we asked four questions of the agency in

2 terms of our latitude. One had to do -- was could we

3 flex the effective date, the compliance date? In other

4 words, the statute -- DOE had proposed a lead time of a

5 three-year lead time from the final rule to the

6 compliance date. And the question we had is, well, are

7 we bound to that or could we consider other compliance

8 dates that might let us get to a higher standard level

9 later or a lower standard level sooner that would sort of

10 use that as a variable to meet stakeholder needs?

11 And the other question was: Could we do two

12 compliance dates? In other words, have a standard that

13 would take effect with a -- an initial standard at one

14 year, and then a more aggressive standard in a further

15 out year; that was the second question.

16 The third question was: Could we use two

17 metrics? Could we include a standard -- in this

18 particular case, we were interested in being able to

19 explore keeping the EER metric at the current levels and

20 also increasing -- and then also moving to the new metric

21 which is IEER and having ultimate agreement that would

22 include two performance standards.

23 And then the final question was: Could we do a

24 design standard, could we include an IEER metric and also

25 say and have a design requirement? We posed those
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1 questions to the agency and the agency came back with an

2 answer, which was yes to all four. So that really opened

3 the door for us in terms of some -- in terms of the

4 negotiations to have more flexibility.

5 And then the agency -- the general counsel

6 explained to us that the way that they saw that

7 flexibility was by using the agency's direct final rule

8 authority. You know, those of us who worked on the air

9 conditioner and furnace negotiations a few years ago, and

10 I think also with some of the process of negotiating with

11 AHAM, Kelley with GE and Jen with AHAM, we've seen this

12 authority used before where they were privately

13 negotiated agreements that were broadly representative of

14 the various stakeholder groups. And DOE used that

15 authority before to have some flexibility on some of

16 these issues.

17 So we heard back from the agency that they saw

18 that flexibility here, as well, through this process.

19 And that -- so we didn't use all four of those elements

20 in the agreement, but we used two of them. And that was

21 a -- a very useful opening of -- opening up of our

22 possibilities for this negotiation. So the answer again

23 is by using the direct final rule authority so that the

24 agency could do this. So it's our expectation now that

25 the agency will move forward to implement this terms
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1 sheet as a direct final rule, which means that they'll

2 publish a final rule and a proposed rule simultaneous;

3 one to the other, there will be an opportunity for

4 comment on that, and then the agency, you know, assuming

5 no significant adverse comment, the agency will move

6 forward with a final rule.

7 MR. ECKMAN: Andrew, were those responses

8 specific to the air conditioning rule or were they more

9 general to the rulemaking process as a whole?

10 MR. deLASKI: I understood them -- we asked the

11 question in the context of this reg-neg, but I understood

12 the answer to be one that was a generalizable answer is

13 how I understood it. I don't know why it would be

14 different, particularly given the track record.

15 MR. ECKMAN: Does that give us the rulemaking

16 possibilities a lot more flexibility than they've had in

17 the past if you can use a direct final rule to mitigate

18 some of the constraints that are in the standard

19 rulemaking process.

20 MR. deLASKI: Right. When there's a consensus

21 and that consensus is of broadly representative

22 stakeholders, as has been in the case this time, states

23 manufacturers, utilities, efficiency advocates.

24 MS. ARMSTRONG: So yeah, and I just want to

25 mention -- this is Ashley from DOE -- you know, one of
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1 the provisions from the statute says on receipt of a

2 statement that is submitted by interested persons that

3 are fairly representative of relevant points of view,

4 including representatives of manufacturers of covered

5 products, states, and efficiency advocates as determined

6 by the secretary as containing recommendations with

7 respect to an energy or water conservation standard.

8 So as Andrew noted, DOE's strongly considering

9 using its direct final rule authority, and it's important

10 that ASRAC understand that as members of this committee,

11 you are representing a pretty broad interest. And so the

12 interest here, you know, we have the states that are

13 represented by Deborah and David; we have the

14 manufacturers of the covered products that would be

15 represented by Diane who represents Rheem and others; and

16 we have efficiency advocates that would be represented

17 not only on the working group itself, but both ASRAC when

18 it's considering in potentially approving to give to DOE.

19 So I think it's important you consider, you

20 know, the wide variety of people involved not only at the

21 working group level, but also at the ASRAC level because

22 you are voting to approve, edit, change, whatever when

23 you're considering this proposal before giving it to the

24 department. So yeah. Thanks, Andrew.

25 MR. deLASKI: So let me, you know, in terms of
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1 the broad brush outcome, we -- one of the key things that

2 we did through this process as a committee was first to

3 work on the analysis. We spent two or three meetings

4 giving the department -- the department had already

5 incorporated the feedback -- the department's consultants

6 had already incorporated the feedback they'd been

7 submitted through the written comment, so there was a new

8 iteration of the analysis for us to consider early on.

9 We provided additional feedback that led to a

10 couple other iterations of the analysis to where we got

11 to the point where we got to an analysis that all

12 stakeholders could live with. None of us were completely

13 satisfied with it, but we could live with it as a basis

14 for negotiation, and that provided us the groundwork, you

15 know, a basis for which we could negotiate levels and

16 dates.

17 The final -- according to the revised analysis

18 that we all decided we could live with, the standards

19 that we agreed to will save 15 quads of energy over the

20 30-year analysis period. Any of you who have been around

21 DOE rulemakings before, you know that's an awfully big

22 number. It's a big number no matter how you look at it.

23 We did -- we're looking for some ways to put it in

24 context.

25 So one way to put it in context is that's equal
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1 to the energy -- equal to the production of all the coal

2 plants in the U.S. for a year, so it's a big number. The

3 net present value benefits to users to the buyers of the

4 equipment is about $50 billion. So it's an enormous

5 standard in terms of the benefits. It's one where the

6 manufacturers have made enormous progress in terms of

7 improving efficiency in their products really in a

8 sustained way.

9 We had the initial standards accepted by

10 congress in the mid-nineties, we had a good step up in

11 2005 that was a compliance date in 2010, and now we have

12 what will be a modest step in 2018, about 10 percent

13 improvement, and then a second step in 2023, which is a

14 25 to 30 percent improvement. Provides manufacturers

15 with that certainty of what the future looks like in a

16 two-step process.

17 Sure, let me finish and then I'll give Diane a

18 chance to -- since you were on the working group. One of

19 the things that we heard was the desire to, you know,

20 combine effective dates for furnaces and for air

21 conditioners, so we did that in the working group so that

22 led to one redesign instead of two redesigns of this

23 product.

24 We also pushed out that second compliance date

25 to a point where it can be -- has the potential to take
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1 effect at the same time as changes to refrigerants for

2 manufacturers. So that will depend on other regulatory

3 action by another agency and a whole host of things have

4 to happen for that, but that was part of the things that

5 we were attempting to do here was to end up with a path

6 that provides certainty in a trajectory for improvement

7 spread over a longer period of time that would have been

8 the case absent a negotiation and that allows these

9 various design cycles to be done together, creates the

10 potential for that. So that was sort of this common --

11 in my view, this combination of factors getting, you

12 know, very large national energy savings, economic

13 benefits, and doing it in a way that worked best for

14 manufacturers.

15 Comment?

16 MS. JAKOBS: I think that it is a big step, and

17 it is challenging. But I think it grew out of changes in

18 technology, the VFD drives, and AHRI, we developed -- the

19 manufacturers together developed the IEER test metric and

20 have been testing to it for a number of years. And so I

21 think there was a whole development that led up to this

22 big step. And that I think doing it this way is -- is

23 more constructive than trying to dictate it, you know?

24 It kind of just organically grew out of changes in

25 technology that have occurred over the last probably ten
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1 years. So thank you.

2 MR. deLASKI: So that's a high-level comment and

3 then if you think it would be useful for people, I can

4 walk through the term sheet. But any other questions or

5 comments at the high level?

6 MR. HON: This is Charlie Hon. One thing I did

7 notice in here is the fact that you've got -- with the

8 two dates coming in 2018 and 2023 dates. How does the,

9 then, from that point forward -- because DOE has a

10 responsibility of reviewing certain number of years

11 after, you know, they have a cycle -- normal cycle built

12 in: Review, update, possibly just reaffirm the existing

13 condition.

14 How does -- with -- by putting two dates in

15 there, how does it affect the cycles from the DOE?

16 MR. deLASKI: I can give you my opinion, but

17 maybe you want to hear from Ashley. So my understanding

18 of the way the statute works, Charlie, is that the

19 statute -- there's two triggers for this set of products.

20 One is an ASHRAE revision, right, so if ASHRAE makes a

21 revision, that then triggers a DOE review and DOE has to

22 be their -- adopt that revision or determine that they

23 need to do a more full rulemaking.

24 And then the other trigger is the regular review

25 provison, which I think is what you're asking about. Under
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1 the regular review provision, a proposed rule is due six

2 years after the last final rule, and a final rule is due

3 eight years after the last final rule. So the way I

4 interpret it, that what triggers that will be the final

5 rule publication date -- that -- that -- that cycle.

6 MR. HON: Charlie Hon again. So therefore,

7 under this system, the next revision from the DOE would

8 be due just about the exact same time as the new -- the

9 2023 dates come about? You're going to be right on top

10 of each other?

11 MR. deLASKI: That's right. I mean, and I

12 think -- you know, as you noted in your -- as you

13 described it initially, it's the next review which may or

14 may not lead to a revision.

15 Ashley's not going to correct me, so I think

16 I'll --

17 MS. ARMSTRONG: No, you got it. You know,

18 there's a second part of that which is the compliancy

19 implementation provision, which is like a catch-all.

20 Which it says something around, you know -- I don't have

21 the statute in front of me -- but it basically provides

22 for five years.

23 So even if we did the final rule on the six-year

24 look back provision, we still have to provide the five

25 years in between for compliance. So really, they would
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1 just know the standards earlier, which could be

2 beneficial to some people if they ultimately, you know,

3 if we do a rule and ultimately finds that standard term

4 worked.

5 MR. deLASKI: So why don't I step through the

6 term sheet. I think the background is pretty clear. We

7 had 17 nominations for the working group, we ended up

8 with -- I think we actually accepted all 17 nominations

9 is I think what we ended up doing as a committee. We had

10 six total meetings in the space of just a couple of

11 months; most of them were in person, several in this

12 room. And we did our final conversation, our final

13 meeting on Monday by an all-day -- in an all-day webinar.

14 We reached a successful consensus on both topics that

15 were assigned to us, which was to negotiate levels and

16 dates for both commercial air conditioners and commercial

17 furnaces.

18 Recommendation number 1 deals with commercial

19 warm air furnaces, we agreed on a new standard of

20 81 percent thermal efficiency effective January 1st,

21 2023. It's a modest improvement in the standard; the

22 current standard's 80 percent. And for oil furnaces, we

23 agreed on a new standard of 82 percent, and I don't

24 recall what the current one is, it might be 80 as well.

25 MS. ARMSTRONG: 81.
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1 MR. deLASKI: Oh, it's 81? So in both cases,

2 the 1 percentage point energy efficiency, and we had a

3 unanimous vote on that measure.

4 On air-cooled commercial packaged air

5 conditioners and heat pumps, that was the second thing

6 that was charged to us. We had several recommendations,

7 the first ones dealt with test procedures. As I had

8 mentioned at the outset, one of the things that we, you

9 know, became apparent to me that actually I didn't

10 understand going into this rulemaking -- although many

11 people in the working group did -- is that the current

12 metric for -- or the new metric, the IEER metric doesn't

13 well represent fan energy use. There's a lot of energy

14 consumption of fans.

15 MS. JAKOBS: Ventilation.

16 MR. deLASKI: Ventilation fan energy use --

17 Diane's the technical expert here so she'll correct me as

18 I get it right. So the ventilation energy consumption of

19 the fan -- of the fans is not well -- well characterized

20 by the IEER metric; it's included in DOE's analysis.

21 DOE, as in all analyses, tries to capture the -- what

22 consumers actually face in the real world, but the metric

23 doesn't capture it. So it's one of these dilemmas that

24 we often see in rulemakings where -- too often, I would

25 say see in rulemakings -- where there's something you can
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1 do to make it more efficient, but not showing up on the

2 test metric.

3 So we recognized this as a problem that we

4 couldn't solve this time around because it's a lot of

5 testing to figure it out, you know, it's not something we

6 can fix quickly. But we recognize that it's something

7 that should be addressed so we created a recommendation

8 that DOE initiate a rulemaking by next January and

9 complete it within three years to consider this issue, as

10 well as any other things that are brought to it about the

11 test method and work to publish a revised test method

12 that would provide the basis for that next iteration,

13 Charlie, that you're asking me about.

14 And one of the things that this does is it gets

15 us ahead of the test method so that people will know the

16 rules of the road for that next iteration early on.

17 There's been a lot of concerns raised about the test

18 revisions being too late. And the idea that this is an

19 important one, let's get it done early, it can go on to

20 the Code of Federal Regulations, people will be able to,

21 you know, sort of sequence both their understanding and

22 being the test to it sooner and it could be adopted by

23 90.1. And that provides a -- a way to get ahead of the

24 fan energy use which is a big element not

25 well-represented today.
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1 MR. HON: So is that the 2023 date would be

2 using the revised test method?

3 MR. deLASKI: No.

4 MR. HON: No? The next round?

5 MR. deLASKI: It will change ratings, right.

6 Once you change that, you're not going to say that your

7 IEER has to be value X, the same piece of equipment is

8 going to have a different -- ultimately, almost surely

9 have a different value.

10 And then a related recommendation is that this

11 issue of fan energy consumption is coming up in the fans

12 working group, which we're going to hear from Diane on

13 later.

14 MS. JAKOBS: Okay.

15 MR. deLASKI: And so the manufacturers of the

16 rooftop units felt strongly that -- that if they're going

17 to agree to a metric -- to revise the metric to include

18 fan energy use more completely in the IEER metric, that

19 equipment subject to that standard should have some --

20 shouldn't have to meet both the fan standard and the IEER

21 standard.

22 So what we agreed to in the working group was to

23 express our opinion to the other working group, which we

24 have done here in this bullet to -- as described here.

25 And ultimately, that working group has to work through
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1 those issues in the details on how to make it -- how to

2 operationalize that concept.

3 The concern that we have as advocates is that we

4 not -- whatever solution they come up with, that it

5 doesn't get a loophole that undermines the effectiveness

6 of the fan's regulation. So therein lies the challenge,

7 and one that that working group, I think, has already

8 been working on.

9 Give you folks a chance to read that

10 recommendation.

11 MS. JAKOBS: I just have a question on that

12 (inaudible) on the test method. I'm wondering if the

13 term sheet says anything about what you've -- what

14 you've just now outlined that it wouldn't be used for the

15 2023 standard or if it does.

16 MS. ARMSTRONG: Yeah, it says, "The new test

17 procedure and any resulting revised metric will not be

18 used for assessing representations or compliancy

19 standards described in this term sheet." So in other

20 words, it makes clear that it's kicked to the next set.

21 MR. deLASKI: Where is that, Ashley?

22 MS. ARMSTRONG: It's on number 2.

23 MS. JAKOBS: Then I think -- I think that just

24 might be a point of confusion. Because as I read that, I

25 thought that meant the currently negotiated standards,
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1 not the 2023 standards. And I thought Tom's question was

2 about whether it would be used in the 2023 standards and

3 Andrew's response was no, it wouldn't.

4 MR. deLASKI: Maybe we'll get to that on the

5 next bullet, because the 2023 standards are negotiated,

6 they're done, they're locked in under this. So this

7 term sheet -- so then the next item, number 4, is where

8 you see those 2023 standards in this term sheet.

9 MS. JAKOBS: Okay. Thank you.

10 MR. deLASKI: Any other questions on the

11 recommendations number 2 and 3 concerning test methods?

12 And then the next one is the standards and their

13 compliance dates. As I described earlier, thinking --

14 having two compliance dates; one: January 1st, 2018,

15 which pulls ahead the NOPR called for January 2019. So

16 it takes an initial standard and pulls it a year earlier

17 in what would have been the case in the NOPR, and it

18 takes a second compliance date and takes it four years

19 later than what would have been the case in the NOPR at a

20 more demanding level.

21 The values here in very rough terms are about a

22 10 percent savings over baseline in 2018 standard, and at

23 25 to 30 percent improvement in efficiency in the second

24 tier -- second phase. Basically 30 percent for the small

25 equipment, 27 or 28 percent or so for the medium --
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1 what's called the large equipment, and about 25 percent

2 improvement in efficiency for the very large equipment,

3 and includes values for IEER. And then for heat pumps on

4 the heating side. And, again, this was approved by --

5 unanimously by those -- by the working group.

6 John?

7 MR. CASKEY: This is John Caskey, NEMA.

8 Basically, my question concerns the technology itself.

9 Diane answered some of this by saying it includes

10 variable frequency drives or variable speed drives

11 already. So are there other major technological changes

12 that need to occur in order for these efficiencies to

13 exist or is it pretty much sort of a commonsense material

14 improvement that's going to produce these results?

15 MS. JAKOBS: I think -- well, because the energy

16 metric is stepped, so certain percentage at -- it's

17 partial loads and it's a weighted average.

18 So the way you use the partial loading in your

19 design, what you design for, you know, that that can lead

20 to the gains in efficiency. So in a way, it's a new --

21 I'm getting -- I think it's just progressing with the

22 technology. I think that's true, but it's not like the

23 efficiency of the motor or the coils is improving, it's

24 more how the components are put together and used as a

25 system.
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1 Did I answer your question?

2 MR. CASKEY: I think so. So you're saying the

3 manufacturers have optimized the performance, if you

4 will, knowing what the part load -- what the part loading

5 on the system is projected to be, essentially, or defined

6 to be?

7 MS. JAKOBS: Right.

8 MR. CASKEY: Okay. Okay. Thanks.

9 MS. MILLER: Hi, it's Deborah Miller. I have a

10 question, and it might be a little strange question

11 because there may not be small manufacturers left that

12 produce this equipment, but we're moving these standards

13 up pretty quickly.

14 What's the impact on any small manufacturers?

15 Do any exist anymore? I don't know. But, you know, the

16 burden of this can be extreme. I have no problems with

17 the outcome, but I'm sort of curious if there was a look

18 at that question, as there usually is.

19 MR. deLASKI: Well, there's two parts to my

20 response to that. One is that even some of the big

21 manufacturers -- some people that you think of as big

22 manufacturers are small in this market. Diane's laughing

23 because I --

24 MS. JAKOBS: You are. Okay.

25 MR. deLASKI: So there's some companies that we
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1 all think of -- you may think of as being big who are

2 relatively small players here. You know, they were very

3 active in participating in this.

4 In addition, AHRI representing the industry as a

5 whole in the working group. And also draw your attention

6 to the fifth recommendation which was for dual-duct

7 units. These are particular units that are, in part,

8 made by a couple of small manufacturers that were

9 explicitly exempted -- or the intent is they are

10 explicitly exempted from these iterations for the reasons

11 that you described.

12 The important thing was to come up with the

13 definition that was going to be rock solid here in terms

14 of preventing a loophole; we spent quite a bit of time on

15 that. Bob Whitwell from Carrier, in particular, took the

16 lead in developing a definition that would allow these

17 products to continue to be sold without -- they're mostly

18 made by small manufacturers.

19 MS. MILLER: Okay. Thank you.

20 MS. JAKOBS: So this is Diane Jakobs from Rheem.

21 There's also a lot of discussion about, really size

22 constraints that the equipment has gotten, over the

23 years, larger and larger and larger, and we're running

24 into problems making it larger.

25 There are rooftop units, the load capacity for
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1 the roof to carry the equipment, the -- in retrofit, you

2 have a roof curb which is just kind of the connection to

3 the duct work, that's fixed. So as you make your

4 equipment even larger, you're running into problems. And

5 these dual-duct equipment, they were ones that were size

6 constrained, so they have special challenges.

7 MR. deLASKI: That's the terms sheet. Are there

8 other questions?

9 MS. KLINE: Andrew, you mentioned earlier there

10 are some sections about changes in refrigerants in terms

11 of compliance dates. What were the assumptions?

12 MR. deLASKI: The assumption is that -- and

13 actually, Diane's going to have to help me out here

14 again -- but that the refrigerants that are the most

15 commonly used today in these products will go away and

16 there will be a shift in the -- roughly the 2023 time

17 frame to new refrigerants.

18 MS. JAKOBS: You're referencing HFCs?

19 MR. deLASKI: I'll let Diane give you the --

20 MS. JAKOBS: HFCs, so they're going away in

21 Europe, there's regulations proposed in Canada. It's

22 more that we don't know what will happen. EPA has made

23 some changes in their SNAP program, so we know that it's

24 coming, but we don't know what it will be. And we're

25 not -- it's like the industry hasn't kind of settled in
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1 on what the alternate will be. And so the -- to help us

2 with that challenge, that was part of the dates that were

3 chosen for the second stage.

4 MS. KLINE: Thank you.

5 MR. deLASKI: So I want to make sure that anyone

6 else who was part of the working group who's in the

7 audience or participated wants to add anything for the

8 committee's consideration, I would -- if I can, I'd open

9 it up to Charlie or a representative of any of the others

10 who are participants.

11 MR. AMRANE: This is Karim Amrane with AHRI. I

12 think as Andrew mentioned, I think the committee worked

13 very hard to reach consensus; and although the timing was

14 challenging, you know, two months, but I think we had the

15 benefit of also meeting outside of the working group,

16 because we started talking at least with some of the

17 parties before DOE established a working group. So we

18 had at least, you know, a few meetings where we started,

19 you know, looking at the analysis and things like that.

20 But it was challenging and at the end, like Andrew

21 mentioned, people were focused and were really -- wanted

22 to really have a deal, and at the end, it happened, and I

23 think we are all lucky.

24 MR. McCRUDDEN: This is Charlie with ACCA. I

25 agree with what Karim just said, and I would say that
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1 there's always sort of postmortems about these working

2 group sessions, and people always talk about all the

3 scars that are there. But I think ultimately it was

4 positive outcome, and that, you know, this was -- this

5 was my second working group but the first time on a

6 standard.

7 My first working group was the regional

8 enforcement -- the regional standards enforcement working

9 group, which I think was very different than the typical

10 standard setting working group. I hope to be on more,

11 and I thought it to be a good interaction between both

12 the stakeholders, the advocates, but also with the

13 consultants that DOE uses. And I think that that's --

14 it's -- I think this is the way we're going to see more

15 of these working groups like this in the future. So --

16 MR. AMRANE: This is Karim. And I have to agree

17 with Charlie on this -- on the issue of having the

18 consultant present in the room. I think that was

19 extremely beneficial to the group because it helped us

20 make changes on the fly and be able to look at the

21 analysis. I think that was extremely helpful.

22 MR. McCRUDDEN: This is Charlie with ACCA again

23 and just one more thing, there was a question about the

24 impact on small businesses. And I think, you know, as

25 streamlined as this is to moving forward getting to a
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1 solution or resolution to the issues that are out there,

2 the one drawback I see with the -- this negotiating

3 rulemaking process is that we may not have the ability to

4 do a full regulatory flexibility act analysis type that

5 normally occurs.

6 But I think that with everyone there, and in

7 this case I think the small folks -- the small businesses

8 are defined as 500 employees and less as a manufacturer.

9 Which is why, you know, you can capture what you may

10 consider as a large manufacturer in that small business

11 definition. And maybe that's something that we can talk

12 about in the future is looking at the impacts on the --

13 you know, the regulatory impacts that have to be under

14 the executive orders -- I don't even remember the numbers

15 now -- that are out there.

16 But representing contractors, obviously

17 99 percent of my members would be considered small

18 businesses. Contractors are really the ones selling the

19 product, you know. Manufacturers produce, but they're

20 not selling it the way that -- you know, the last entity

21 holding the box is the contractor. And the reason I was

22 so interested in being on the working group was that I

23 want to make sure that the result doesn't affect the

24 contractors ability to sell this product.

25 But you had a good question and I just wanted to
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1 recognize that. Thanks.

2 MS. JAKOBS: So this is Diane Jakobs from Rheem.

3 And I just wanted to agree with Karim that Greg did

4 really well. I've been in the situation where you work

5 for months on something, some analysis, and you're in a

6 meeting and people start doing what-ifs and asking you

7 what it will mean, and it's very challenging. And he was

8 instrumental, I thought, in giving people good numbers to

9 work with.

10 MR. deLASKI: All right. I want to hopefully

11 bring this part of the agenda to a close.

12 MS. MILLER: I want to make one comment. It's

13 Deborah Miller, as people know me, know that I was at the

14 department for seven years and was very much involved in

15 this process when we did informal negotiated rulemakings,

16 and I have to say that this has come a long way.

17 When I was both at DOE, and it was then ARI, we

18 would sit in rooms and come to agreement and then not

19 come to agreement. I think that having ASRAC as an

20 advisory committee in making this the sort of the modus

21 operandi for dealing with rulemakings has been really

22 helpful and I just see only good things coming out of it.

23 So I want to congratulate everybody here who

24 have been involved at the department, as well as

25 manufacturers and energy efficiency groups and all others
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1 because you're doing a very good job.

2 MR. deLASKI: All right. Are there any final

3 comments before we bring this one to a vote? Comments or

4 questions? Is there a motion to approve the terms sheet?

5 Anybody opposed?

6 One abstention. David, you good? We'll assume

7 silence is a yes vote. Consider that one approved.

8 MR. HUNGERFORD: Yeah, I'm good. I had to find

9 my mute key.

10 MR. deLASKI: Good. So that one's approved

11 unanimously with one abstention. All right.

12 So moving on to our next agenda item:

13 Commercial and industrial fans. So look to an update

14 from our rep on that working group.

15 MS. JAKOBS: This is Diane Jakobs from Rheem.

16 And I haven't participated -- I think I've participated

17 in person every other meeting, but I think we're

18 challenged -- we've exchanged a lot of information, and I

19 think that people are starting to listen to each other

20 and to Ashley, and that it's a lot of -- it's a lot of

21 different product to cover, and that's part of our

22 challenge. And we also have these two separate groups

23 where we have people representing products that are

24 regulated, and then there's a group of people with

25 products that haven't been regulated, and Ashley gave a
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1 real good presentation of the requirements of the

2 department for certifying equipment which might have been

3 new information for some people, but there's -- there's a

4 lot of progress.

5 I don't -- I don't know if we'll meet our date,

6 but hopefully with all the effort that's been extended,

7 you know, that we might be able to extend the date if we

8 need it. So I guess does anyone have any questions?

9 MR. CASKEY: John Caskey, NEMA. How many

10 manufacturers are there in this area?

11 MS. JAKOBS: Well, yeah --

12 MS. ARMSTRONG: So that's like the tricky

13 question of the day because what you're really getting at

14 is -- and what I think is providing a lot of discussion

15 in the committee is what's a fan, and at what point in

16 the process does a fan become a fan that can be tested

17 and rated and potentially be considered for standards.

18 And depending on where you draw that line -- and the

19 committee has been working around the idea of what a

20 testable configuration would be in hopes of drawing that

21 line somewhere, you know, equivocally across the chain

22 without putting undue burden with the recognization that

23 fans are used in a lot of end use applications.

24 So depending on where we end up there, the scope

25 of who's a fan manufacturer could be very broad, or could
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1 be more limited. So the answer is we're not sure, but

2 there's a lot, a lot more than a typical rulemaking.

3 Fans are used in everything right now, all different

4 categories, types of fans are being considered at least

5 for the discussion of scope. The committee hasn't made

6 any progress in terms of what may be considered for test

7 procedures and standards and what hasn't been, but that's

8 kind of where we are at this point. I don't know if you

9 have anything else to add.

10 I think one thing the committee should think

11 about in terms of ASRAC at least in my opinion is what

12 type of progress you want to see from the working group

13 for you to consider extending or not. I think that would

14 be a good message to send back to that working group if

15 we're still at month four and we haven't been able to

16 vote out anything. Is that something that the committee

17 would consider extending further or not?

18 So I think ASRAC should consider what type of

19 progress they want when the fourth one ends and Diane and

20 I come back and say, "Well, this is kind of where we

21 are," and if we're still at the scope discussion and we

22 haven't even gotten to, you know, metric or levels or,

23 you know, is that acceptable to the committee or not? It

24 would probably be a good time to send that message back

25 given where we are.
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1 MR. CASKEY: John Caskey, NEMA. My immediate

2 reaction to that is to -- from my perspective -- to

3 extend the duration. I would want to have some handle on

4 what the scope is, you know, have you gotten to the point

5 of at least being able to define a fan and figure out

6 what the scope is to give us a fairly detailed update in

7 writing of what it is that you have so that we can come

8 to a consensus on are concluded and then sort of a path

9 forward. Do you expect to need another year? Another

10 month? What is a path forward? How often are you

11 meeting? And things like that in order to come to some

12 resolution within some predetermined plan -- within some

13 predetermined schedule.

14 MS. JAKOBS: This is Diane. And it's

15 interesting, to me a fan would have a motor, but that's

16 apparently not always the case. So I think it -- when I

17 was talking about two groups, so as Rheem as a fan

18 manufacturer, we have a specific application and we know

19 how we're using it; that's like one group.

20 There's a group who build fans for multiple

21 applications, they have application data. There are

22 standards within AMCA that give you this data, so someone

23 can take that fan and use it in their piece of equipment.

24 So probably, you know, it might be a little over -- I

25 don't know, it might be in any specific application, it
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1 would be a lower volume. But the fan manufacturer has to

2 give more general data so that it can be used.

3 And so one of the things with -- AMCA is Air

4 Movement and Controls Association -- but they have a test

5 standard, and one of the things that they have said is

6 that they don't expect any fan designs to be eliminated.

7 That what they hope is that -- what they think will

8 happen is that fan selections will be better. That

9 instead of choosing -- you won't have the option of

10 choosing a low efficiency fan in your application; you'll

11 have to choose the higher efficiency fan.

12 But that low efficiency fan might be right for

13 some other application. So it's more like things

14 shifting in the applications where it -- it's kind of a

15 difficult concept instead of this having one number in

16 like for an air conditioner, everything below 13 SEER

17 just disappears and is gone. This is more like you're

18 not going to use it in Product A, you're only going to be

19 allowed to use it in Product B. It's very, very

20 complicated.

21 MS. MILLER: This is Deborah Miller. Diane,

22 actually -- I'm no longer on that committee because they

23 needed the slot and I felt it was better used for a fan

24 manufacturer, so I do have some questions.

25 Does AMCA -- because I don't remember who AMCA
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1 represents -- do they represent the fan manufacturers

2 like you were saying that represent the ones that do --

3 that manufacture all sorts of different fans and goes

4 into a variety of applications?

5 MS. JAKOBS: Yes, and they're very interesting.

6 I mean, they're talking about fans for making snow, fans

7 for ventilation in the subway; all kinds, it's industrial

8 and commercial. And, I mean, there's thousands of

9 applications.

10 So in a way, it seems like HVAC is using a lot

11 of the time when there were all these applications, but I

12 guess in the number of fans that are actually used,

13 it's -- someone has said that it's like 50 percent. So

14 when you think, most of the fans in the world are used in

15 moving air for HVAC equipment.

16 MS. MILLER: So has the committee talked about

17 what's in versus what's out?

18 MS. JAKOBS: A lot.

19 MS. MILLER: Yeah, so I mean, then the question

20 becomes just how important are those other ones that

21 aren't in as far as energy use goes? And again, I don't

22 know the industry very well.

23 MS. JAKOBS: Well, I mean, one of the things is

24 the terms sheet that we just approved said that the HVAC

25 equipment should be excluded from the fan and blower in
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1 some limited way. But -- so hopefully that will move the

2 discussion forward in the -- for the other applications,

3 the other half.

4 MS. MILLER: It's Deborah again. Do we have a

5 deadline? At least have we set one internally on the

6 scope side where we said, "We have to make the scope by

7 such and such date. We're going to have to make some

8 hard decisions"?

9 MR. deLASKI: I think the overall deadline for

10 the committee is August 15th.

11 MS. JAKOBS: Right.

12 MR. deLASKI: I hesitate to say you've got to do

13 scope first. I mean, you've got to do scope first, but

14 ultimately it's a package. Everything has to sort of fit

15 together: Maybe I'm okay with the scope if the

16 stringency is like this. Whereas, if the

17 stringency is -- like Diane described where nothing is

18 being eliminated, maybe I'm okay with having that thing

19 in, I just have to be able to be in a compliant range

20 which speaks so much to the complexity of the topic.

21 My concern with this committee -- and I talked

22 with several people who are on the committee -- is that

23 my concern is that the committee's spinning its wheels.

24 The reports that I'm getting is there's a lot of long

25 discussions and not a lot of bringing issues to the --
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1 calling the questions, so to speak. I mean, this is what

2 I think Deborah's getting at. At some point you've got

3 to start asking questions. As opposed to presentations

4 that sort of skip from one topic to the other.

5 There's three more meetings. And I actually

6 suggested that nothing's really been decided yet. So

7 that, to me, is an alarm. And I, for one, will be very

8 hesitant to extend the working group that doesn't make

9 enormous progress in the next three meetings. If the

10 working group comes back and says, "Look, we've got the

11 scope about nailed down. We know what our metric is" --

12 that's the second thing I want to know: Is the metric

13 decided upon or are you still arguing about the metric?

14 If that's the case, then we're really in trouble; right?

15 And are we -- are we zeroing in on making decisions about

16 the levels or how is that going to work?

17 If that's not the case, my inclination would

18 be -- this is a big working group, 25 people. We had

19 16 -- 25 people and three or four caucuses, right. So we

20 had two sort of caucuses, so to speak. This is a more

21 complex situation which means that having a negotiation

22 makes good sense, but it also means that things can lock

23 up. And if they're locked up, then I'm not inclined -- I

24 personally am not inclined to extend it. I'd want to

25 hear, you know, some evidence.
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1 And John maybe you can describe what's it mean

2 to be locked up. I think scope -- progress on scope --

3 maybe not final votes, but at least we've had temperature

4 checks. At least we know you've got some tentative

5 agreements and we've got a metric," those are, to me,

6 would be two things I want to know are locked down or

7 close to locked down.

8 MS. MILLER: It's Deborah. The members probably

9 know this intuitively and excuse me for putting it like

10 this, but if this doesn't work out, they'll have much

11 less input in the regular regulatory process. And people

12 sort of have to come to Jesus about that, you know? This

13 is the ability for them to negotiate face-to-face and

14 have to make some really hard decisions, and it's tough.

15 But they may not have that level of input if we go back

16 to the standard rulemaking procedures. So they really

17 have to be pushed hard, and a lot of these people have

18 never been through this before, this is all new to them.

19 MS. ARMSTRONG: So this is Ashley. The point's

20 been made by a number of different people in the rooms

21 that those -- that's the opposite side of this, right.

22 The DOE does have every intention of moving forward with

23 a fans rule, a fans proposed rule, and we hope to be able

24 to accomplish that with the working group and a terms

25 sheet.
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1 But as Andrew said, I mean, I think if we're not

2 at the point of -- in my opinion, and I've been part of

3 these meetings -- and if we're not at the point of

4 actually talking about levels in terms of, you know, by

5 August when we are asking, I -- I think you all need to

6 really strongly consider if we're ever going to get

7 there.

8 MR. deLASKI: My advice back to the committee --

9 this is Andrew again -- is to reach agreement by

10 August 15th. At this point, I'm surely not going to

11 entertain an extension. No one's asked for one today,

12 but I think the committee should work together to

13 consensus by August 15th as was originally decided by

14 this parent committee, and you know, would we entertain

15 an extension of a meeting if these metrics are met.

16 But, you know, I'm thinking maybe a meeting as

17 opposed to -- I'm not thinking six months for sure. I'm

18 not thinking doubling the term. Because if you haven't

19 made progress in the first six months, why would I expect

20 progress in the next, you know, unless you've showed

21 something.

22 MS. JAKOBS: This is Diane. And I don't think

23 the meetings have been held up by the people that have

24 not been regulated before. It's the people who are

25 regulated and have been regulated for decades. So the --
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1 and part of the issue is that those people are not

2 familiar with the metric that has been proposed. So we

3 have the metrics we know and love, and this is an

4 additional metric, a new metric, one we never tested.

5 MR. deLASKI: This is curve; this is the curve.

6 MS. ARMSTRONG: No, I know which group it is.

7 MS. JAKOBS: Yeah, so that's the concern. And

8 it's -- the people who are regulated know how important

9 it is and how it will affect our business and all the

10 downstream issues, and the metric that's being proposed

11 is not one we're familiar with.

12 MR. deLASKI: So hopefully this -- I mean, I'm

13 hopeful that the recommendation that we just approved

14 that relates to this docket will help, hopefully, give

15 some impetus to clear through some of the scope issues

16 and find a way forward.

17 And the last comment I want to make is that I

18 think we, as the parent committee, so we have an

19 obligation to sort of defend this process, right. We

20 don't want to see this reg-neg process used as a tool for

21 delay or for skirting the agency's regulatory authority

22 and requirements. So that's really my fundamental

23 concern is that it not become a mechanism that someone

24 says, "Okay. I can get a reg-neg and I can sort of drag

25 this thing out." And that's not going to happen.
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1 MS. JAKOBS: So this is Diane. There is one

2 issue in the NODA, it did say -- I don't know exactly

3 what the wording was, but it was interpreted that HVAC

4 equipment would not be included, and subsequently, we

5 have been included.

6 So from my point of view, it was something we

7 thought we didn't have to worry about, but we have. So

8 over and over it's like, you're coming to the table late,

9 "Yeah, we're late and we don't know." You know, and we

10 haven't been negotiating for multiple years ahead of

11 this.

12 But so this -- the terms sheet, I mean, it's

13 asking that HVAC rooftop units be excluded -- commercial

14 rooftop units. But there are all kinds of air handler

15 that are used with chillers, there are multiple

16 products -- there are a lot of AHRI products that will be

17 covered, and we're going -- we're working through that,

18 we're trying to figure out, we're trying to identify and

19 provide sales data.

20 MR. deLASKI: Just want to -- probably should

21 move along here pretty soon. But I want to -- we need to

22 be careful about the terminology. The terms sheet

23 approved says that, "fans whose energy consumption is

24 reflected in the metric should not be" -- it's our

25 recommendation -- "would not be covered by the fan
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1 regulation."

2 So HVAC equipment, as you rightly say, is much

3 broader universe of equipment. So the recommendation was

4 not to exempt all HVAC equipment, it was to say if your

5 fan energy consumption is covered by the IEER metric in

6 some way, then that particular fan would get -- needs to

7 be considered -- you know, you need to consider how

8 that's going to be covered, and now we have this issue

9 that's going to be covered. And now we have this issue,

10 it's very complicated, it's an important issue, and this

11 was discussed on Monday as we approved the terms sheet.

12 Say you sell your fan, hey, you're a fan

13 manufacturer and you sell your fan. So I show up, a

14 container of fans come into the port of L.A., and you

15 don't know where those fans are going to go. Those fans,

16 as we discussed on Monday, would need to comply with the

17 fan regulation because they might end up on a rooftop

18 unit, but that's an application and the fan manufacturer

19 would need to comply.

20 So that was a -- again, now we're getting to

21 the details which we probably don't need to do today.

22 But I want to be careful when you say HVAC fans don't

23 have to comply, that was not the recommendation. It was

24 more narrowly constructed as carefully negotiated in

25 those three sentences.
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1 MS. JAKOBS: Yeah, I was trying to say that, and

2 I agree 100 percent.

3 MR. deLASKI: All right. Questions?

4 MS. JAKOBS: So where do we go from here?

5 MR. CASKEY: John Caskey. I guess having been

6 involved with a lot of different organizations, I mean

7 some they're purposely sort of almost designed to not

8 make progress. I mean, I hope that this one isn't in

9 that area, but thinking about facilitators and things

10 like that, is there any sort of change in a facilitator

11 or personalities that would help move this thing along

12 that we could have recommended or be involved with that

13 might be a better fit for this organization or is it just

14 the fact that's taking a while for these people to get to

15 know one another to help move in the same direction?

16 MS. JAKOBS: This is Diane. I think the terms

17 sheet is going to make a change or disrupt what we've

18 been doing. So I think next week will be different

19 because of what we did today. I'm not sure about will it

20 be the savior of the process, but yeah, I don't --

21 MR. deLASKI: Kelley?

22 MS. KLINE: And Diane, this is Kelley, why is

23 that? Is that because it's going to define the scope?

24 What does that -- help me understand what that solves.

25 MS. JAKOBS: There are a group of people who say
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1 we're already regulated and a fan is only in a component,

2 and if we have a system -- well, it's part about what

3 we've been working on within this committee ourselves

4 with systems versus individual components.

5 So -- so if you have a system that a fan is a

6 component in and you have a target for an efficiency

7 level that's regulated, if you have to increase the

8 efficiency of one component, what stops the manufacturer

9 from just taking cost out of another component so you end

10 up at the same target for the system even though one

11 component is regulated? So there's no savings, then,

12 depending on how you look at it. And I guess I lost my

13 train of thought on that one. So the people building

14 systems who have had regulated systems, they see no

15 benefit, it only limits their design choices. And

16 there's additional testing, additional expense.

17 There's an issue about what Andrew was talking

18 about for Rheem, we have built our own fan assemblies,

19 but other companies have come to us and pitched -- or

20 they wanted to sell us an assembly instead of just

21 components of a fan, just a wheel or a fan blade, they

22 want to send us a whole assembly which has advantages.

23 It could be more efficient because you can balance fan

24 all together and you can actually make it work

25 together -- work better if you balance it all as an
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1 assembly as opposed to just putting some balanced

2 components together and hope it all works out later. So

3 there are advantages, but there's still -- I mean, we're

4 still talking about who's a fan manufacturer.

5 MS. KLINE: But then what does the terms sheet

6 answer for you that solves that? That's what I'm --

7 MS. ARMSTRONG: Just to --

8 MS. JAKOBS: You want to go ahead?

9 MS. ARMSTRONG: -- to bridge the gap. For the

10 fans that end up being embedded in air-cooled commercial

11 AC equipment greater than 75, less than 60, it has a

12 recommendation to the working group to consider those

13 fans out of scope for potential test procedures and

14 standards; just for that equipment.

15 There is other embedded fans and embedded

16 equipment that are still going to be on the table and we

17 are going to still have to deal with those issues. And

18 there's a caveat around that exclusion, and the caveat is

19 the fans group needs to figure out a way to administer

20 that in a manner that doesn't provide loopholes, so

21 that's going to be a challenge.

22 But it at least gets you -- it gets an

23 indication to the committee that we don't have to talk

24 about anymore -- at least those -- what's in and out. We

25 need to talk about, can we find a way to administer that
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1 properly that the whole working group can agree to.

2 MS. KLINE: So they're saying for a certain

3 class it will be regulated (inaudible)?

4 MS. ARMSTRONG: Yes. So there's some challenges

5 associated with that, and like I said, there's a lot of

6 other equipment that this still applies to and those

7 discussions of the scope will still need to be had.

8 One of the things I think we are going to try to

9 do, though, is push through some of the larger issues and

10 talk about the set of exclusions perhaps last. Because

11 as Andrew said, it's a package deal, and -- but I think

12 it would help from this committee if we told them, you

13 know, they have to make some real progress, you know. To

14 your question about, "Well, what's the punchline here?"

15 If we were to send back a message through Diane that the

16 committee's interested in seeing some real votes on

17 metric and on, you know, certain provisions of test

18 procedures and on certain provisions of scope or

19 administration or something. I mean, it's not a terms

20 sheet, and ultimately the package will have to be

21 approved as a whole if they can get there. But don't

22 think about coming back to ask on August 5th or whatever

23 we said if we haven't been able to vote anything out yet.

24 MS. KLINE: I guess what I was kind of listening

25 to the discussion and struggling with a little bit is,
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1 I've not been able to get a grasp on what the substantive

2 issues are here really. That folks aren't coming here

3 other than complexity, and I think that would be hopeful

4 to understand, and maybe the committee needs some

5 direction on that to help them -- or the work group needs

6 some direction on that to help them break through some of

7 those log jams. You know, I mean -- it doesn't -- I

8 don't get a great sense about what the roadblocks are.

9 MS. JAKOBS: So this is Diane. And so my

10 refrigerator stopped working a couple weeks ago, and I

11 just took it apart; it was frozen. So it's like --

12 there's a little evaporator fan, and we're talking about

13 regulating that component in your refrigerator. So I

14 would think that a refrigerator designer wouldn't see any

15 benefit there.

16 It's just -- so one of the things in the

17 negotiations is there's been -- and I still not clear if

18 this one horsepower and above thing is for real or not.

19 MS. ARMSTRONG: Because we haven't voted on

20 anything.

21 MS. KLINE: May I interrupt you for just a

22 second?

23 MS. JAKOBS: Because your fan could be --

24 MS. KLINE: Just to play devil's advocate for a

25 second, why isn't that a fairly simple question to test,
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1 why haven't you had consensus on that or not? "Should

2 those components be regulated, yes or no?" We go forward

3 and see if we have consensus on that from that point on.

4 To me, that does not seem like a complicated

5 question. And for what it's worth, my position would be

6 that they should not be. You know, it should be

7 regulated as the end product, right. But to me that

8 doesn't seem like something that should be --

9 MR. deLASKI: So I think -- and Ashley's in the

10 working group and she's actually brought up some pretty

11 detailed language to try to do what you just said. And

12 so there's been an attempt by the agency to come forward

13 with a proposal. I think it's going to come to a head on

14 Monday and Tuesday.

15 MS. ARMSTRONG: I have to doubt it's going to

16 come to a head on Monday and Tuesday.

17 So I think on Monday and Tuesday we're going to

18 know, either we can get past and we can start voting out

19 some things, or we can't. And if we can't I think that,

20 you know, the message on Monday morning from ASRAC should

21 be, you know, ASRAC is really -- I think depending on

22 what we all, you know, feel -- but I think ASRAC is

23 potentially hesitant of just, you know, giving you more

24 time unless you can show some real progress. And part of

25 that progress needs to be starting to accumulate records
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1 of votes, and if those records of votes can't end up with

2 anything that's consensus over a multiple-day period of

3 time on a variety of different issues, then --

4 MS. JAKOBS: It won't be extended.

5 MS. ARMSTRONG: Right. So I mean, I don't know

6 that we need to talk about all the details with regards

7 to any more of the fans stuff -- and I know Jen's been

8 waiting to speak for forever and I'm sure others want to

9 speak with regards to this.

10 But I think the message I think we were trying

11 to send to you is that it's been a roller coaster in that

12 line. It could switch and go really well, I mean, I

13 think there's some interest and some genuine people are

14 at the table and they are trying, but I think there's

15 also some others that, you know, each meeting it's a new

16 discussion of well, we haven't had time to consider what

17 DOE put out a couple months ago or we haven't had time,

18 we don't understand, and this, that, and the other. And

19 at some point, you know, we're two months in now.

20 MS. CLEARY: I think I just wanted to say that

21 one thing I would also want to know if we're asked to

22 extend is, is the reason for more time because there's

23 been a deadlock and you just want to keep talking about

24 it or is it because you're starting to make more

25 progress?
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1 So perhaps up until now there hasn't been a lot

2 of progress and there hasn't been a meeting of the minds,

3 but hopefully this will change on Monday and Tuesday.

4 But maybe because of what's happened so far, you still

5 need more time to work, hopefully cooperatively.

6 So what I would really want know -- and I guess

7 it would partly be evidenced by some votes -- but I think

8 there -- I would want to sort of know sort of a

9 temperature check of the room and the atmosphere and is

10 there a willingness to work together and to move forward

11 and that's why more time is necessary to actually come to

12 the agreement. You know, because if it's just going to

13 be locked going forward and you just want more time to

14 talk, then I don't see extending. But otherwise, I would

15 think we might be more willing to extend.

16 MR. deLASKI: So what I want to communicate and

17 I want to make sure we get some free time here as well to

18 discuss miscellaneous refrigeration as well, but what do

19 we want to communicate back to -- to the working group

20 through our rep Diane and Ashley since she's in the

21 working group as well.

22 MS. MILLER: Andrew, I think it's really what

23 Ashley said and what you've been saying is that unless we

24 see some substantial progress which is demonstrated by

25 some votes in consensus on key issues whether they be
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1 scope or levels or whatever that is, we've got to see

2 that. Otherwise, it will not be extended. I mean, I

3 think you sort of have to tell them, it's no, unless --

4 MR. deLASKI: Right. And it's not a request for

5 an --

6 MS. MILLER: You may word it differently, but

7 that's the end result.

8 MR. deLASKI: I'm not sure we need a motion, but

9 I think it's a sense of the committee kind of thing as

10 opposed to some formal written motion. I guess I don't

11 want to let them off the hook yet for August 15th yet,

12 either, I'm sure many of them are listening on this open

13 webinar right now. So but my intent is that --

14 MS. MILLER: We encourage --

15 MR. deLASKI: -- meet your deadline.

16 MS. MILLER: Meet your deadline. We encourage

17 you to --

18 MR. deLASKI: First, meet your deadline.

19 MS. MILLER: Right.

20 MR. deLASKI: Progress hasn't been what I hope

21 it would have been by this point. Hopefully we will

22 start seeing now some progress starting on Monday with

23 some real votes. Recognize that they're tentative,

24 everyone's going, the goal's getting to an agreement that

25 you can live with as opposed to an agreement that gets
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1 you everything you want.

2 MS. JAKOBS: This is Diane. I have a question.

3 So Ashley has proposed what we would vote on. Is it

4 restricted to Ashley or --

5 MR. deLASKI: No, your working group sets its

6 own rules; right? So --

7 MS. JAKOBS: Okay.

8 MR. deLASKI: I mean, I think there was a

9 request -- as I understood it, there has been a request

10 to the OEMs to help define how we will define these

11 products that you would like to see exempted so that it

12 doesn't become a loophole, right. So I think that

13 challenge was put back to the manufacturers. I don't

14 think there's been a response yet, so that's my

15 understanding. So I think we need to give a little

16 time -- I don't want to shortcut the other topic.

17 MR. HON: This is Charlie Hon. I've been

18 listening to all of this, and there's a lot of

19 similarities and different things I've heard over the

20 years in several of these groups. But one of the things

21 that we also need to consider is if we see progress

22 going, I do not see a great need to extend another three

23 months or something. The best case scenario, I would say

24 is maybe extending another 30 days which would allow a

25 couple more meetings if we're seeing progress and we're
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1 moving forward and the committee is truly moving forward

2 and needs a little bit more time to get things done. But

3 if not, I don't see any -- from what I've heard here is

4 not promising.

5 MS. JAKOBS: So just one more -- sorry. Diane

6 Jakobs -- so fans for commercial refrigeration are

7 covered.

8 MR. HON: Yes, I'm well aware of that and

9 understand it completely because --

10 MS. JAKOBS: Okay. Good.

11 MR. HON: -- I look at it as two things, number

12 1 you mentioned earlier: Should it be considered in the

13 total package and independently? The answer to me is, I

14 think that's a far gone conclusion because we're not

15 buying a proprietary product which is exclusive to our

16 applications.

17 And in that case, I just -- you pretty much pull

18 us out of the formula. Because with a proprietary

19 product very specifically designed and built for an

20 application, it is a different product than what we would

21 be buying. What we would be buying is considered a

22 commodity-type item, and therefore covered under

23 regulation. So for me to get into that argument is

24 really not valid.

25 MR. deLASKI: Any other final thoughts on this?
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1 I think we've pretty much covered the topic.

2 Let's shift to miscellaneous refrigeration,

3 Charlie and Jen.

4 MS. CLEARY: Okay. Well -- this is Jen -- I

5 guess compared to what we just heard, I actually think

6 the miscellaneous refrigeration negotiation is going very

7 well. A lot of cooperation amongst the stakeholders, we

8 have voted on a number of topics. We've completed -- at

9 least, we have temperature check votes on all of the test

10 procedure issues, the definition issues. And we agreed

11 last week to recommend to the secretary in our -- in our

12 spec sheet that standalone ice makers not be included as

13 miscellaneous refrigeration products, and that was a

14 significant, like, elephant-in-the-room-type topic.

15 So I think that that shows the cooperative

16 spirit there. But it also removes a huge chunk of our

17 potential workload, it removes it from our plate. So we

18 don't have to negotiate now test procedures for ice

19 makers, definitions for ice makers, standards for ice

20 makers. So that certainly makes the rulemaking much less

21 complex.

22 And so you know, our next step -- well, I will

23 note also that DOE was the only no vote on that. But we

24 do have assurances that they'll still support the working

25 group's recommendation. And certainly we're, you know, a
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1 good part of our discussion. So now we're ready with our

2 next meeting next month to begin our work on negotiating

3 the standards.

4 DOE's analysis will need some revision because

5 we have established five product classes for cooled

6 cabinets, and we will be working to define product

7 classes for the hybrid, you know, wine chiller

8 refrigerator, wine chiller freezer, multitude of

9 different combinations possible there as well. And so

10 the analysis will need to be revised to reflect that, as

11 well as many of the other comments that were received on

12 the preliminary analysis on lifetimes and things of that

13 nature.

14 So all of that work will still need to be done,

15 and so I think it will remain to be seen whether the

16 working group will be needing the additional month or two

17 months that we approved for them. But right now, I think

18 we're looking to be -- and Charlie, let me know if you

19 agree -- I think we're looking to be on schedule to

20 finish at the end of August unless, you know, the

21 analysis were to take longer for some reason. You know,

22 what needs to go into that analysis, as well as a lot of

23 data that will come from AHAM members, as well as I

24 assume other manufacturers on the products.

25 So in any case, I hope that we will finish on
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1 time. If you remember, we did a tier deadline for

2 miscellaneous refrigeration which was the four months

3 initial and then the possibility to extend two. But

4 we're working very hard to meet the four-month deadline,

5 and I anticipate we will.

6 MR. HON: This is Charlie Hon. I agree with

7 everything Jen said. There was also some very

8 interesting discussions from the house counsel for the

9 DOE on what the house -- what the DOE's possible

10 alternate scenarios were, and I think that was part of

11 the reasons people could come to clarity. We got good,

12 clear definitions from certain groups of, "What are the

13 ramifications if we do this?" Then this. If we do this,

14 then this.

15 And when we got the clarifications, then it

16 became understandable for groups of people, and there was

17 basically the energy efficiency people and manufacturers,

18 obvious divisions in approach, but they understand where

19 the scope, the risk factors, the exposure factors really

20 are. And when people have that, I think they can come to

21 clearer decisions. That's one of the things that was

22 very positive about it, people were able to come to a

23 concise and clear decision on yes or no, we're going to

24 do this.

25 And the votes, if you look at the votes, there
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1 was -- all the straw voting we were doing, everything

2 else was -- I think we had one or two negative votes on

3 all the different votes we took in total, including the

4 one from the DOE on the removal from the scope of the

5 project. But it's coming to -- it is very encouraging to

6 see groups of people who are coming from different

7 viewpoints, different desires, different needs for their

8 organizational systems, to be able to sit down in a room

9 and come to a logical and reasonable numbers and

10 reasonable consideration for the whole project. And it's

11 really, very encouraging when I see that.

12 MR. deLASKI: Other questions for Jen or

13 Charlie?

14 MS. JAKOBS: This is Diane, just a question. So

15 Andrew said like the HVAC equipment had two groups and

16 they were doing the caucusing but coming back. And --

17 are -- how many groups do you have? Or it sounds like

18 you don't -- maybe don't have groups or -- it seems like

19 a different dynamic, maybe.

20 MS. CLEARY: Yeah, we only have one group. I

21 think at the last meeting we did develop a couple of very

22 short-term working groups to work on things like hybrid

23 product classes. And basically so we just wouldn't stall

24 out on issues during the meetings to come to the next

25 meeting with proposals that the group could discuss. But
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1 I don't think that's similar to what maybe Andrew was

2 describing where there were sort of more defined working

3 groups on product or anything; we don't have that.

4 And in fact, as it turns out, we really have

5 narrowed the scope considerably by pushing ice makers

6 out. And also -- just for complex reasons we don't need

7 to discuss here -- the non-compressor refrigerators which

8 were originally part of this still are part of it, but in

9 a different way that doesn't necessitate them being

10 treated separately. So that has really narrowed our

11 focus, and I don't think we really need the groups.

12 MS. JAKOBS: So just one more question about the

13 ice makers. So when you voted them off the island or

14 whatever, does that mean they won't be regulated or you

15 just don't want to talk about them in your working group?

16 MS. CLEARY: What DOE -- the recommendation is

17 that they not be included in the scope of coverage as a

18 miscellaneous refrigeration product. So that would mean

19 they will not be covered as part of this rulemaking.

20 That does not mean, however, that the department couldn't

21 decide to cover them individually or in some other

22 aspect. But right now, yes, it means they won't be

23 covered.

24 MR. HON: This is Charlie Hon. DOE also

25 discussed the possibility, because under the commercial
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1 ice makers which are regulated already, they could extend

2 the scope of coverage. Right now, commercial ice making

3 ends at -- it basically goes at 50 pounds per day of ice

4 generation to 2,500 pounds per day of ice generation, and

5 it goes into an industrial and totally different. But

6 for the commercial, that's the category.

7 The DOE is considering the option of possibly

8 extending the scope of coverage under the commercial ice

9 makers, but that's an -- that's an understanding we all

10 know. It was discussed in the meeting, it was clear what

11 the options were. The DOE counsel told us what the

12 options were.

13 Number 1 is that we make recommendation from --

14 to ASRAC. ASRAC makes recommendation to the secretary.

15 The secretary does not have to accept our

16 recommendations. If the secretary deems it necessary to

17 leave them in the group, they can stay in and then DOE

18 will have to function as a -- the normal rulemaking

19 process to add -- go back and finalize that portion of

20 the rule.

21 And we are -- we're all in understanding of

22 what's going on, and its been laid out quite clearly and

23 as such. Everyone understands what the different

24 potential issues we face are. And it was voted to

25 exclude them because it didn't seem -- we were not
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1 getting anywhere with the rest of it. It was a very

2 strong opinion of most of the people in the room that it

3 is workable without that, so we made that decision.

4 But I have one other question for you, Diane.

5 Did you ask a question about the different groups? Am I

6 interpreting that question as different factions within

7 the committee?

8 MS. JAKOBS: Yes, so we had manufacturers and

9 energy advocates.

10 MR. HON: Okay. This is Charlie Hon again. We

11 had three basic factions of the groups. We have the

12 major players in the home refrigeration markets of today.

13 We have no representation from the thermal electric

14 groups because no one's chosen to come to the table

15 except for one home supplier who markets them; they don't

16 manufacture. We have a group of independent crossovers

17 between the commercial and the residential markets, a

18 group of us in that level, and we also have the energy

19 advocate groups.

20 So basically we have three groups active and one

21 group not represented, even though we've tried to get

22 representation. There's very slight representation from

23 one supplier who has marketing interest, but not

24 manufacturing interest.

25 MS. JAKOBS: So to me, the dynamics sound
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1 like -- I feel like we're the elephant in the room, you

2 know, for the fans and blowers. And we -- we didn't --

3 we're pretty -- trying to insist that that be addressed

4 before other -- other issues are allowed to go by.

5 Sounds like your group, you put the ice makers

6 on the side and then worked on all the other things. So

7 it was kind of two ways that maybe it could have been

8 handled and, you know, we talked about both, and it's

9 difficult to see people, you know, making the same

10 effort, same expense, showing up at the meetings and

11 they're never on topic because some other group is

12 dominating the --

13 MR. HON: This is Charlie Hon again.

14 MS. JAKOBS: -- this discussion.

15 MR. HON: That is exactly why we voted them off

16 the table, they were becoming an elephant in the room

17 that we couldn't cope with. And we had to go forward

18 because we have a project here that needs to be

19 completed, and there's definite need for action, and we

20 can do as much action as we can get done. So we have to

21 prioritize what can we do and what can't we do.

22 MS. JAKOBS: So in a way, I mean, you're showing

23 that as being, you know, a successful, functional working

24 group. But in a way, you took part of your assignment

25 and put it on the side.
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1 MR. deLASKI: Based on a vote that had one no

2 vote -- a pretty important no vote -- so it isn't like

3 they've found the way forward with a no vote.

4 But again, the other thought to me, everyone

5 else on that committee voted yes. So as Charlie

6 described, that's the decision that that committee made

7 on not a 100 percent basis, but close to it.

8 MS. CLEARY: And this is Jen. I wouldn't say

9 that we only voted it out because of difficulty, you

10 know. I mean --

11 MR. HON: Me too.

12 MS. CLEARY: -- that was not my reasoning,

13 actually. So I think my reasoning was because the energy

14 savings opportunities are very small and AHAM members

15 were able to present data demonstrating that the

16 opportunities were much smaller than DOE had indicated in

17 its proposed rule.

18 And so our view was that it was not

19 appropriately covered and, you know, I can't speak for

20 the advocates as to why they decided to vote to exclude

21 it, but I hope that they saw the smaller energy savings.

22 So that was another element to it.

23 MR. deLASKI: We're about five minutes behind

24 schedule, so I would like to take up our next topic if we

25 can finish this one. Any other questions or comments for
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1 Jen and Charlie? To complete your task in four months

2 and not take your extra time would be, I believe, much

3 appreciated by the parent committee.

4 MR. HON: I think we're on track for that

5 schedule. I think we're going to use all of our dates --

6 I think one at the last meeting was proposed as an

7 optional, but I think we're going to use it, but I think

8 we are going to be done on time.

9 MR. deLASKI: And I think you had the same

10 facilitators, the federal mediation folks who we had for

11 the commercial AC that did a very nice job on commercial

12 AC and furnaces, helped to move things ahead with a

13 pretty effective, but still -- light but effective hand.

14 Our next topic -- and then after this one, we'll

15 take our lunch break -- is working group request from

16 AHRI and Lennox to create a working group for central air

17 conditioners -- residential central air conditioners and

18 heat pumps.

19 This is the one new potential working group been

20 recommended to the committee. And so we have letters

21 from AHRI and Lennox, and I think letters were submitted

22 yesterday by HARDI and ACCA, so the distributors and

23 contractors associations.

24 Do we want to give Karim a chance to describe

25 your letter and your request? And then I'll -- Lennox is
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1 not here.

2 MR. AMRANE: Sure, this is Karim with AHRI. Of

3 course we're requesting this committee to consider

4 establishing a working group to negotiate the central

5 AC -- residential central AC rulemaking.

6 We feel that while there has been two iterations

7 of this rule in the past since they were first regulated

8 by DOE, and in two times in those two cases those

9 rulemakings were challenged in court. So we feel that

10 given the complexity now of the standards because now we

11 have regional standards, the complexity of the analysis

12 and the history of the rule being challenged in court,

13 that having a working group through ASRAC will be the

14 best option to reach consensus among all the parties.

15 So that's what we feel that it's -- that this

16 committee should give it full consideration. So I -- I'd

17 be happy to answer any question specifically that you

18 have, but we feel that given the history and given the

19 complexity that that's a good rule to be negotiated.

20 MS. JAKOBS: I'd like to comment; I say hear,

21 hear. I think that the manufacturers understand the

22 importance of getting consensus now, as Karim said,

23 because of what has been the history. And I would just

24 simply say I think it would be something that we would

25 support.
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1 MR. deLASKI: And the Lennox letter, I think

2 references some outreach to my organization and some

3 outreach to ACEEE on this topic as well, and we've been

4 supportive as indicated in Lennox's letter to move this

5 to a reg-neg.

6 Charlie, do you want to say anything? And if

7 HARDI's on the phone, I'll give them a chance to voice

8 their view.

9 MR. McCRUDDEN: This is Charlie with ACCA.

10 Yeah, I think given what Karim said of the history here,

11 I think this is a ripe rulemaking to go through a

12 reg-neg. I think based on the experience I just had with

13 commercial warm air furnaces and commercial coolant,

14 having -- if we can have the consultants available as we

15 did before, I think that would be helpful.

16 One thing I would add, I guess, is that I think

17 we have plenty of time in this case. And as we sort of

18 stack up some of these working groups, it may be

19 beneficial to sort of look at giving folks plenty of time

20 to meet because I think -- I don't know what the carrying

21 capacity on DOE is in terms of working groups, but on

22 industry's side, it may be one that -- something to

23 consider.

24 So it looks like Ashley might say something, so

25 I'll stop talking.
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1 MR. deLASKI: Let's -- we'll come to timing I

2 think -- when we come to -- let's talk about timing in a

3 few minutes here.

4 Is John Mandyck or HARDI on the phone?

5 MS. ARMSTRONG: I don't know, but Dave from

6 Lennox is. He should be unmuted if he wants to speak.

7 MR. deLASKI: Dave, do you want to?

8 MR. WINNINGHAM: Yeah, this is Dave Winningham

9 representing Lennox. I concur with what Charlie's

10 requesting in regard to in that I think we need to look

11 at the timing on this.

12 The other issue is the test procedure, may want

13 to look at tackling test procedure at the front end

14 before we start talking about the (inaudible) and I

15 apologize for the --

16 MR. deLASKI: Dave, we hear you loud and clear.

17 Are you finished?

18 MR. WINNINGHAM: Yes.

19 MR. deLASKI: And is HARDI on the phone? Okay.

20 So those are the representatives who have asked

21 for the working group. Karim, do you want to make a

22 point?

23 MR. AMRANE: Yes, just a point -- this is Karim

24 with AHRI -- on the test procedure. AHRI has been

25 working on a revision to the test procedures for two
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1 years now, and -- but we don't know what DOE's intent is

2 with respect to the test procedure. So -- and I

3 understand, and maybe Ashley could confirm here, that

4 DOE's planning to make significant changes to test

5 procedure which will impact, I believe, the rating, the

6 metric that we are regulating.

7 And if that's the case -- and I think that's

8 what Dave is talking about -- makes a lot of sense that

9 we should have discussion on test procedure before even

10 we start talking about the energy efficiency levels.

11 MS. ARMSTRONG: So DOE has been working on a

12 test procedure for quite a while as well for these

13 products. DOE is considering some changes that are

14 clarification in nature, and some larger changes in that

15 test procedure rule. DOE does not believe that the test

16 procedure needs to be part of the negotiated rulemaking.

17 DOE plans to put out the test procedure before the

18 commencement of the -- at least the proposed rule before

19 the commencement of the negotiated rulemaking so that all

20 interested parties will have that available to them. And

21 obviously we can move to talk about scheduling and how

22 that would look like, but at least DOE is committed to

23 put in.

24 The committee should know before we talk about

25 timelines that DOE has also been working on analysis for
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1 central air conditioners. We will be in a position to

2 put out draft analyses for the committee to use in its

3 negotiation, at least as a starting point for the

4 discussions in terms of what our analysis would look

5 like, what are some of the assumptions, what are some of

6 the data elements that we can go through similar to what

7 was done for others. And then obviously, you know, make

8 our consultants available, as well as DOE to talk through

9 those and revise as we go along accordingly.

10 So from DOE's perspective -- I don't know if you

11 want to talk about schedule yet or if you want to talk

12 about scope or if we even want to get to the part where,

13 you know, does ASRAC think it's a good idea first before

14 we talk about schedule and scope. But I think we are

15 ready to move on this one, and we don't want to see this

16 one -- we are supportive of a negotiated rule as well

17 from the department's perspective.

18 That being said, I think we are also supportive

19 of forming that committee relatively soon and getting

20 that one underway. We have the resources available, we

21 have the analysis that we've been working on, and we're

22 ready to begin those discussions. So we're hoping that

23 we can get that one at least the discussion started, you

24 know, not too far in the future.

25 MR. deLASKI: As a point of information, I would
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1 point folks to the regulatory agenda. And under the

2 regulatory agenda, DOE has a published schedule calls for

3 a proposed rule calls to be issued in July.

4 FEMALE SPEAKER: Is that for test procedure?

5 MR. deLASKI: No, on the standard.

6 MS. ARMSTRONG: Could I ask --

7 MR. deLASKI: Let me finish my point of

8 information.

9 And then a final rule, according to the

10 regulatory agenda, is scheduled for May of 2016. Okay?

11 So this is the published sort of what the government's

12 sort of currently published schedule is. Now, what I

13 just heard from Ashley is the willingness to publish an

14 analysis in a support for a reg-neg. So obviously that

15 would change that schedule but, you know, that's the

16 current schedule.

17 MS. ARMSTRONG: Also from Ashley, as one point

18 of clarification, we're willing to do that such that the

19 timelines are set by ASRAC, the scope is set by ASRAC,

20 and it gets started sooner rather than later, realizing

21 that the department's committed to get the test procedure

22 out next month.

23 MR. deLASKI: So let's keep on the --

24 MS. JAKOBS: Can I ask a quick question?

25 MR. deLASKI: Sure.
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1 MS. JAKOBS: This is Diane from Rheem. So are

2 you saying in the analysis you assumed that the proposed

3 changes to the test procedure would be in place?

4 Ashley's nodding her head yes. Okay. Thank

5 you.

6 MR. deLASKI: So clearly the test method is

7 close to seeing the light of day is my inference from

8 this discussion, and that clearly that would need to

9 happen in advance of any meetings, and it seems to be --

10 MS. ARMSTRONG: Yeah, and we have some process

11 things to go through in terms of soliciting nominations,

12 getting the package together, ASRAC setting up a meeting

13 to approve the people, getting, you know, you're still a

14 good 30 to 60 days out from that stuff even happening

15 before the first meeting can commence. So it's not like

16 we're looking at tomorrow, but for us to get started with

17 that, realistically it needs to happen sooner than later.

18 MR. deLASKI: Right. So let's stay on sort of

19 the merits of the idea before we get into the merits --

20 into the questions of timing, but the merits of putting

21 it to a reg-neg, Jen?

22 MS. CLEARY: Well, I guess in my view, the

23 merits of the idea are very connected to the merits of

24 the timing -- or to the timing, because I find it would

25 be very difficult to negotiate standards without knowing
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1 what the test procedure changes will be. And in fact,

2 that's not consistent with the process improvement rule

3 and I don't expect that to be consistent with

4 recommendations that this very body will be making to DOE

5 and will discuss later today.

6 So I'm very supportive of a working group to

7 negotiate standards. But at the same time, I would find

8 it difficult to approve something where the basis for

9 that negotiation would be uncertain. Certainly I don't

10 expect that manufacturers would be able to effectively

11 talk about levels if they haven't been able to do any

12 testing on their products. So you know, in the process

13 improvement rule, "modifications to the test procedure

14 are to be proposed before issuance of an advanced NOPR,"

15 which I recognize the department doesn't always do now.

16 However, it also indicates that, "final test procedures

17 are to be issued before the NOPR."

18 So I'm trying to think about how that relates to

19 this process, and I would think that if the outcome of a

20 standards negotiation is a proposed rule, that I would

21 see the parallel suggestion being -- or process being

22 that the test procedure ought to be finalized. So to me,

23 that would maybe support what I think I heard Karim

24 saying, which is that the test procedure should be also

25 part of the negotiation and should be finalized before
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1 the discussion moves to what the standards can be. I

2 don't see how any rational standards analysis can proceed

3 any other way.

4 MS. ARMSTRONG: So can I ask a question? Are

5 you having problems in your working group right now?

6 Your test procedure is not finalized for MREFs. You

7 wanted to talk about some of it. It's going to be moved

8 to be finalized while you're still negotiating. But you

9 said -- I think what I heard you say earlier was that you

10 are in a position to talk about analysis and levels

11 without an issue and that's not finalized.

12 MS. CLEARY: But what I also just said was that

13 I think that the test procedure should be discussed as

14 part of the negotiation, which is exactly what we've done

15 at MREFs so we have a sense of what that finalized test

16 procedure will look like as far as it will impact

17 measured energy. So I don't see the two being different.

18 If there were any question about how the test

19 procedure would be finalized, I would have a different

20 view in MREF as well. I would have the same concerns,

21 and in fact, that has been raised I think in AHAM's

22 comments on that rulemaking. Also, I don't know -- I

23 think also the issues in the MREFs test procedure are

24 certainly understood as to how they would impact measured

25 energy if they went one way or another way; I don't know
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1 if the same is true here.

2 It sort of sounds to me like maybe not everyone

3 knows what changes the department is even planning to

4 propose. So I think that it sounds, like I said, like a

5 very different status there.

6 MS. JAKOBS: So this is Diane Jakobs from Rheem,

7 and our products are covered by these rulemakings, and we

8 support the forming of the ASRAC working group. We

9 certainly prefer to work on the test procedure first or

10 at least that they could be discussed together. So

11 they're interlocking, you know, it's difficult to

12 separate them.

13 MR. CASKEY: John Caskey, NEMA. Certainly from

14 the organizations that are supporting moving forward with

15 the working group for this technology, you know, I

16 support that and it sounds like it makes sense. I think

17 trying to get the test procedure squared away before the

18 negotiated rulemaking process is a great step in the

19 right direction that we've talked about. You know, how

20 do we connect up the test procedures with the regulations

21 a little bit better in terms of timing than we've done in

22 the past? I'm a little -- with that said, so I'm

23 99 percent supportive of everything.

24 I'm a little concerned that if we're showing and

25 what you presented earlier, Andrew, was the
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1 recommendations of the first, you know, the commercial

2 air conditioning and what is that -- furnace, you know,

3 that how well the negotiating rulemaking process worked

4 and how we're creating a better product as a result of

5 that interaction. And then -- but then we sort of go to

6 a certain extent backwards dealing with the test

7 procedures. It sounds like they're being worked on

8 primarily worked through DOE, and I don't know how much

9 interaction is going on with the industry while that's

10 occurring.

11 So I would love -- you know, it would be great

12 if in the future we would be at some point we get to the

13 point of the industry being involved with the test

14 procedure definition and working them out, and then go

15 into the negotiated rulemaking process relative to the

16 rule itself.

17 So again, I'm just a little bit puzzled why

18 we're not -- I don't know how much interaction there's

19 been during that process.

20 MR. WINNINGHAM: This is Dave with Lennox. As

21 Karim had mentioned, there has been work within the

22 industry to update the test procedures from the

23 perspective. DOE has been invited to those meetings and

24 has participated to some extent, but I would not say that

25 there's been a meaningful exchange at this point.
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1 In regards to the changes that ASHRAE

2 (inaudible) we are not aware of, you know, of those

3 (inaudible) at this point.

4 MS. ARMSTRONG: So in my defense a little, I

5 have been participating in 210/240 quite a bit, Dave. I

6 did go to those meetings and I did provide some pretty

7 substantial feedback, including raising some of the

8 larger issues that DOE is considering in the rule for

9 which some of which the committee declined to address.

10 So that being said, also, we put out another

11 test procedure for another product; I think that gives

12 you a pretty good indication of what the department's

13 position is on some of the rating conditions for your

14 products. So that's also on the table for discussion,

15 and we've said that publicly before.

16 Another issue still on the table is some of the

17 clarifying provisions and off mode provisions that this

18 would be the third SNOPR on, this isn't new. So you're

19 well aware of what those are as well. Let's see, what

20 else would we consider? There are some outcomes in the

21 regional standards enforcement rulemaking that we believe

22 requires some changes. Not necessarily changes that

23 would affect measured consumption, but some changes to

24 implement that the way the negotiated rulemaking terms

25 sheet specifies. Those won't be new to you, you agreed
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1 to them in the working group. So you know, it's hard to

2 say that you guys don't know mostly what's coming.

3 You have not seen a proposed rule, that's

4 completely fair and that's all on me and I'll take

5 responsibility to that. I'm looking at the ceiling

6 talking to you, too, by the way so I'm sure everyone in

7 the room can laugh at me. But I don't think it's fair to

8 say that the department and the manufacturers have no

9 interaction and you're just going to be completely

10 blindsided by what's going to come out here.

11 MR. WINNINGHAM: That's not what I was

12 inferring, Ashley. I know that you have been to some of

13 the discussions and there has been some exchange, but

14 there hasn't been what I would regard as agreement around

15 those. And I don't think the exchange has been -- I

16 don't know what the -- but it's not like we had sat

17 around trying to determine and agree upon the

18 (inaudible) of each of these items. And I think the

19 ASRAC process would be an excellent forum to work through

20 those details.

21 MS. ARMSTRONG: So this is Ashley. And the

22 point of being -- negotiating, you know, I think we're

23 willing to give a little. We do plan to put out a

24 proposed rule, but we do want to start this process soon.

25 So if you guys want to say that, you know, a limited
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1 portion of the test procedure, whatever you see in the

2 proposed rule that you want to discuss, you want to

3 discuss it the first handful of meetings, fine, I can do

4 that. But I think we want to resolve that pretty quickly

5 so we can move to a final rule and advance with the NOPR.

6 And so you know, I don't want to say that the

7 test procedure is completely opening because we have a

8 need to finalize that in a reasonable amount of time.

9 But if you see the proposed rule and there's some things

10 you want to discuss as part of the working group, I think

11 that's fine with the understanding that DOE thinks the

12 working group should be started soon.

13 MR. deLASKI: That makes sense to me. I mean,

14 that's consistent with what I've been hearing people say

15 which is that the working group -- I mean, what's going

16 to happen is sort of the sequencing here is a proposed

17 testing method is published, there's a 60 or 75-day

18 comment period, and that comment period is going to be

19 concurrent with this working group getting its work. So

20 it's natural -- it's almost -- you can't avoid it talking

21 about these topics in the working group, and it will be

22 healthy and necessary to talk about what's being said in

23 their written comments as well, and hopefully it can be

24 done in a way that's more interactive than would

25 otherwise be the case.
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1 So that strikes me as being a healthy thing, and

2 so then the department will move towards a final test

3 method rule. And I think that's then going to impact how

4 those discussions go and what the people can sort of

5 start getting centered on, what is the test method

6 revisions that the final rule will show I think aren't

7 going to influence the timing for how you could move

8 forward with the discussions on standard levels.

9 So if you continue to be a logger head over some

10 key issues, you're not going to be able to do that. So

11 that's going to be impacting the timing of when the

12 committee will be able to reach consensus.

13 So that kind of brings me to -- that's sort of

14 the way I'm thinking about it, that impacts -- assuming

15 we're comfortable with chartering the working group, I

16 think what we would initially want to do is give it a

17 charter and then a report back since we're not going to

18 sort of give them -- I can't imagine -- it seems to be

19 premature for the deadline at this point in reaching

20 standards agreement. But we would say, you know, report

21 back, you know, by our next meeting or whatever. Or you

22 know, report back by September 1st or something.

23 Charlie?

24 MR. HON: This is Charlie Hon. The one thing

25 that last -- in the one -- the working group that just
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1 completed their task, a very tight type timeline was

2 imposed on them because of regulatory deadlines, and they

3 were able to complete that task within the scope of our

4 charter.

5 I think that I'm hearing the same sort of thing,

6 not quite as tight of deadlines, but certainly a fairly

7 tight sort of deadlines exists in this one as well. So

8 an open-ended project is a problematic issue. So we have

9 to be very cognitive that it's going to have to be tight,

10 and the more projects that we put in there, whether it be

11 the scope of the test procedures and the rulemaking, the

12 more you put in there, the more difficult it becomes to

13 complete.

14 MR. deLASKI: Well, let me ask John and Ashley

15 now -- welcome, John. Since you're here, we'll put you

16 on the spot. What are you guys thinking in terms of time

17 frame?

18 MS. ARMSTRONG: He's throwing me under the bus.

19 MR. CYMBALSKY: I would never do that.

20 MS. ARMSTRONG: You just did.

21 MR. WINNINGHAM: This is Dave at Allied. By the

22 way, I believe the statutory deadline for the NOPR is

23 June or July 2017 recognizing that the regulatory agenda

24 is something different.

25 MS. ARMSTRONG: So realistically, I think from
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1 my perspective we would look to have this up and running

2 no later than, yeah, sometime in August getting it

3 started perhaps with, you know, a report back within a

4 month or so about at least agreement on test procedure

5 issues. And from there, maybe an allowance of a couple

6 of months to discuss analysis and standard levels.

7 MS. CLEARY: So Ashley, are you thinking then

8 like four months total would be sufficient or is three

9 enough? More than that?

10 MS. ARMSTRONG: I think from the department's

11 perspective, we think it can be done in three months,

12 yep, with the interim report back on test procedure

13 decisions done within the first month so we could go

14 ahead and move forward to finalize, yep.

15 MR. deLASKI: Well, if you form the committee in

16 August -- if you form the committee in August --

17 MS. ARMSTRONG: I think we would form the

18 committee next month. In other words, if we -- if it

19 gets chartered, we'll put out a meeting notice next week.

20 MR. deLASKI: Yeah.

21 MS. ARMSTRONG: We're going to be asking ASRAC

22 for a webinar in July. Hopefully we could approve the

23 committee in July and have the first meeting in August.

24 MR. deLASKI: And test method will have been on

25 the streets for several weeks at that point.
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1 MS. ARMSTRONG: Possibly a month by that point

2 maybe. I don't know, we'll see.

3 MR. deLASKI: And the -- so then we look for a

4 report back in September on the test method issues, sort

5 of a scoping on the test method issues, and then -- so

6 then if you have October and November to work on standard

7 levels, you're looking at a target of December 1.

8 MS. ARMSTRONG: That's reasonable.

9 MS. KLINE: This is Kelley Kline. I guess my

10 only hesitation there -- and I like how we're thinking

11 about it with the test method piece up front -- I guess

12 I'm hearkening back to Jen's comment, and I just want to

13 be sensitive to since the test procedure still in -- at

14 somewhat in flux and I just don't have the great sense of

15 this product or the types of changes here, I would want

16 to make sure we give the manufacturers sufficient time to

17 be able to react to that new test procedure, test their

18 products under the revised test procedure, and really

19 have a good sense of how that it is impacting their

20 products and design.

21 So what I'm hesitating over is not beginning the

22 test procedure work immediately, but that immediate

23 follow-on on the standards piece, and I'm wondering if

24 that's enough time. And I don't want to speak for the

25 manufacturers in that category, but I'm just raising that
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1 as a potential place where I can see the group needing

2 more time.

3 MR. deLASKI: Other thoughts on this?

4 MR. WINNINGHAM: This is Dave with Lennox. I

5 think a 30-day month time to do the procedure would be

6 very, very aggressive. If we do any testing, it is

7 likely to take, you know, double to triple that amount of

8 time. I'm not trying to drag my feet here; I'm realistic

9 to what manufacturers can realistically do.

10 The other part of this discussion, kind of a

11 review of regional standards and the impact of regional

12 standards in that we don't really understand the impacts

13 of that in large, the sell through of older products

14 intact. We're not going to really understand the

15 influence of the standards on these products until really

16 2016 and (inaudible).

17 So my perspective is we need to have a

18 reasonable schedule that allows full consideration of all

19 complex issues around this upcoming rulemaking.

20 MS. KLINE: And just one other -- and this is

21 Kelley Kline again -- just one other thought here that

22 might be able to be discussed at the test procedure at

23 the front end, what -- another piece that might be able

24 to be discussed and kind of negotiated at that piece --

25 at that time is what manufacturers think is a reasonable
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1 kind of number and a testing plan to give them a

2 representative cross-section of, you know, what the

3 impact of the standard on their products would be.

4 Because, you know, that might be -- it could

5 range from very little to something that would be --

6 something that would be significant. And if it was

7 agreed there, then you would be able to get to a much

8 better sense of whether it was a one-month exercise or a

9 three-month exercise, or, you know what that is and have

10 kind of a common understanding of what the timeline is so

11 everybody's on the same page about the needs. Just a

12 thought.

13 MS. ARMSTRONG: So a couple thoughts. One is,

14 I'm not sure -- so just so the committee is well aware,

15 I'm not sure we're going to agree what all the test

16 procedure changes should be as part of that group, and I

17 don't want that to bog down what progress might could be

18 made.

19 I'm hopeful with the dialogue and the

20 back-and-forth and the rationale and the explanation of

21 whys that we can reach some resolution, but I'm not sure.

22 So I'd hate to see that, you know, we get to the

23 three-month mark and we're still talking about what that

24 test method should look like and we don't have any.

25 DOE has done some testing, albeit, manufacturers
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1 will need to as well, and they will need to bring data.

2 DOE does have some understanding of how those ratings

3 would change and what they would look like. DOE is happy

4 to share that information and walk through how it came to

5 its conclusions and revise the analysis accordingly.

6 But I think that will also be part of the

7 analysis discussion. I mean, fundamentally, I think that

8 will be part of bringing data in how do you build up the

9 engineering? What efficiency levels are you analyzing?

10 With what technologies? What are the numbers that

11 represent that bundle under the new test procedure and

12 what were they before? So I think those discussions will

13 continue to move on past that one month, and maybe we can

14 say -- but I think -- in that one-month period, what I

15 think we're trying to encompass is that these are the

16 proposed changes, and if there's any big, big issues like

17 there were a couple of really sticky issues in NREFs that

18 Jen referred to and they were able to talk about them,

19 have that dialogue -- and Charlie -- and have that

20 dialogue and resolve them, and now that test procedure's

21 off the table and they can move forward and we can move

22 forward. And they'll get their test procedure final rule

23 before the NOPR, and that's what I'm hoping.

24 My worry here is thought that we won't be able

25 to agree and having an open-ended deadline and not a
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1 tight one for at least the test procedure discussions

2 could very well stall this process, and I don't think

3 that's where we want to send the upfront message to the

4 committee or to the working group if we end up chartering

5 it. I'm all for giving them enough time to do some

6 tests, AC and heat pumps tests do take some time -- not

7 nearly as long as refrigerators at least in some of

8 them -- but that being said, I do think to make some hard

9 decisions on the test procedure, 30 days should be

10 sufficient.

11 Now, whether we start -- instead of starting in

12 August, maybe we start in September to give them a little

13 more time to see the test procedure, maybe that's the

14 give. But I don't think, you know, drawing this out

15 until 2017 is reasonable for the department to even

16 consider.

17 MS. CLEARY: So I'd like to hear a little

18 feedback from some of the manufacturers because it seems

19 to me like the suggestion that you just had is a good

20 one, which is I feel like it would be helpful for the

21 department for able to see the written comments on the

22 test procedure, which I would assume would help to

23 identify what those sticky issues potentially are. And

24 also -- I'm sure you probably already know them from the

25 department -- but I think speaking from the NREF context,
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1 it was helpful to me going into the discussions to know

2 where other parties stood on those test procedure issues.

3 I think we were able to address them more

4 quickly because we were really limited to discussing

5 topics where there were differences of opinion where we

6 might not have known where the department was going to go

7 in a final rule, for example. And I think that also

8 allowed manufacturers to have some experience with what

9 was proposed; whereas, if we start the working group at

10 the same time as, you know, an open proposal is on the

11 streets, I think I'd -- I think that might be more

12 challenging. So it seems like a good compromise to me.

13 MS. JAKOBS: So this is Diane Jakobs from Rheem.

14 And the particular test procedure -- and I don't

15 participate on 210/240 for AHRI, but it's complicated in

16 the sense that we have independent coil manufacturers,

17 and we have these ARM, Alternate Rating Methods, so

18 there's computer programs.

19 And I know when I've been in committees with

20 other people, if they make points, I don't necessarily

21 remember every point that they made unless, you know, the

22 group accepted it. So you know, it could be that you've

23 heard it and you gave what you felt was a good argument

24 against it, you know, and then in your mind, it's over.

25 So I'm sure that Ashley brought up all these
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1 issues and that people heard them. I don't think that we

2 have been testing in case that happens. So I don't think

3 there could be any assumption that there was a design or

4 testing related to issues raised by Ashley at a 210/240

5 meeting.

6 So a month seems very, very short for talking

7 about the test procedure, to me. And I understand, you

8 know, giving people a short deadline is really important,

9 but it's very complicated issue, and if it's so short

10 that you can't do anything then why even try?

11 MR. deLASKI: I think the new proposal was --

12 what was the adjusted schedule Ashley that you were just

13 proposing was --

14 MS. ARMSTRONG: That's what I was trying to

15 write out.

16 MR. deLASKI: I was trying to capture it, too,

17 and I'm not sure I got it.

18 MS. ARMSTRONG: So I think my proposal was to

19 start a little bit later. So maybe instead of in August,

20 we bump that start date a little bit out further. The

21 would do two things; one: Give people more time with the

22 proposed method of test; but B: Also allow them generate

23 comments and test data accordingly as they may wish to.

24 You know, and so I think that -- can you live

25 with that? So one option to consider would be to
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1 starting sometime -- instead of starting in August, would

2 the committee consider starting October 1? And that

3 would be 30 days for test procedure, and then two months

4 for standards analysis, and that will give you -- what

5 that buys you is about probably three months.

6 MR. deLASKI: Huh-uh.

7 MS. ARMSTRONG: Two and a half, three months

8 with the test procedure and lab time, and how you use

9 that is up to you. You will have the subsequent 30 days

10 to bring to the department any major issues with the test

11 procedure. We will have 30 days to work to resolve them

12 in the working group. And after that, you will also have

13 additional time to bring data about the analysis and what

14 those levels look like.

15 But with the two-month deadline, so it would be

16 October for the test procedure, November, December for

17 standards, with a final date of December 31st.

18 MR. ECKMAN: So Ashley, what -- if -- is the

19 anticipated close of comments on the test procedure

20 assuming if there's a NOPR out this -- is that what

21 you're talking about -- this summer?

22 MS. ARMSTRONG: Yeah.

23 MR. ECKMAN: So would that close end of October

24 so at the first meeting -- no.

25 MR. deLASKI: It would typically be 60 days.
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1 MR. CYMBALSKY: 75 days.

2 MS. ARMSTRONG: So this is going to be an SNOPR.

3 We have satisfied the 75-day comment period. It does not

4 have to be 75, it could very well could be 30.

5 MR. ECKMAN: I just -- there's an overlap

6 between the first month of the meeting of the crew --

7 MS. ARMSTRONG: I don't think there will be. I

8 think the comment period will have closed by October 1, I

9 considered that. And we do not anticipate issuing an

10 extension because, really, they can bring comments to the

11 working group, that will be what that 30 days is for. If

12 we need to discuss other major issues, we can do it in

13 that forum and essentially discuss comments or responses

14 or so --

15 MR. AMRANE: This is Karim with AHRI. Just to

16 comment on what Ashley just said about the comment period

17 here. The SNOPR is the current test procedure that's

18 being revised by DOE while it's really specifically

19 addressing the off mode, it was not about something else.

20 So if you are adding new stuff that we don't

21 know what it is, I think -- I think you should give us

22 enough time to react. I mean, 30 days will not be

23 possible for us, particularly if we have to test

24 products. We have to really assess what those changes

25 are.
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1 MS. ARMSTRONG: I don't think talking about the

2 test method comment period is appropriate for this group.

3 I mean, ultimately, depending on with consultation with

4 our lawyers, we're going to set the comment period

5 appropriately.

6 MR. deLASKI: And of course you're free to ask

7 for extensions once it’s been published, that's -- it

8 happens frequently, but I don't think it's a matter for

9 this committee.

10 MS. ARMSTRONG: Right.

11 MR. deLASKI: What I've heard, though, is a

12 proposal for a schedule that would entail initiating --

13 so the work group would be formed this summer, call for

14 nominations would go out, working group would be formed

15 by this committee sometime over the summer. And then

16 initial meetings would be in October, spending the first

17 month probably a couple of meetings to resolve any

18 outstanding on the test method which may all be tied up

19 with a bow by then based on comments in the NOPR, and may

20 not be. So if they're all tied up by then, or at least

21 we know what the disagreements are, then the agency

22 can -- then the group can move ahead with the discussion

23 on standards sooner. And then a deadline for your terms

24 sheet to report it back out to this -- to the parent

25 committee.
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1 MS. KLINE: This is Kelley Kline again. I just

2 want to flag kind of one more thought for the group here

3 just from a manufacturer's perspective, because I know

4 this is how we would think about it looking at this.

5 I think that this group should think about what

6 advice its giving to manufacturers as its outlined in

7 this committee with the SNOPR. Because I think typically

8 when manufacturers would see an SNOPR that's actively

9 getting commented on, right, it would not be thought of

10 as a -- what should be treated as a final procedure. So

11 would not be doing as extensive a testing -- as you would

12 typically do as if you were preparing for a compliance

13 date or assessing a standards level; right?

14 So it is -- I think it is asking the

15 manufacturers in this product category to essentially

16 treat the SNOPR as a final test procedure, test

17 accordingly to get ready for the standards negotiation,

18 and I think we need to recognize that that's essentially

19 the instruction we're giving to those manufacturers in

20 this scenario. Because otherwise, how do they get ready

21 for the standards negotiation? And I'm just kind of

22 tossing that out there. Correct me if anybody has a

23 different read of that timeline.

24 MS. CLEARY: So Kelley, yeah, I was kind of

25 thinking the same thing. And I guess my initial thought
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1 of pushing the start date was to allow them -- the

2 manufacturers, to assess what the issues were in order to

3 start the test procedure discussions.

4 But then it seems like we have the other issue

5 of once the working group hopefully agrees to a final

6 test procedure, at least works out the major issues so

7 they have a good lead time in sense as to what the final

8 test procedure will work like, will they have enough time

9 to do that testing that you're talking about in order to

10 inform their standard?

11 So it sounds like I think we need to hear a

12 little more from maybe AHRI or others in terms of what

13 they need. Where do they need that extra time? Do they

14 need it before the negotiation begins or do they need it

15 after agreeing to the major elements of the test

16 procedure in order to inform the standards analysis? I

17 could see it being -- personally, I could see it, from

18 our experience being in both cases, so I'd like to hear

19 that.

20 MR. AMRANE: And this is Karim with AHRI, and I

21 would agree. I think we would need time for both,

22 because there would be an SNOPR out who will be testing

23 and if there are changes done, you know, made to the test

24 procedure during that negotiation, we probably would have

25 to negotiate that as well. So yes, we would have to
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1 build in some time to test both times.

2 MS. JAKOBS: This is Diane Jakobs from Rheem.

3 And our lab is scheduled out for a year in advance. So I

4 mean, we're -- we've participated in a lot of these

5 negotiated rulemaking, clearly it's important to Rheem,

6 and we will do our best to collect data to understand for

7 ourselves what's happening, you know. And secondary to

8 that, what we share.

9 But I think SNOPR, it's always a case where you

10 should evaluate it, you know. I'd -- I know that there's

11 some people who just want to know what the final rule is

12 and we'll do whatever we need to do, but if you want to

13 be part of the process and part of the negotiation,

14 you -- you need to be doing that testing. So I don't

15 know that probably the people who would do it anyway

16 would receive the message and others, they wouldn't pay

17 attention anyway. So I don't know if we need a special

18 message about the importance of SNOPRs.

19 MR. CYMBALSKY: Right. This is John from DOE.

20 I actually think actually the opposite from Kelley. I

21 think it's actually more important to do all the testing

22 on the proposal because if you wait until the final rule,

23 guess what, it's too late; right? A rule's a rule.

24 So I think the earlier the comments and the

25 earlier the testing in all of our processes, the better.
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1 Waiting until the final rule or -- you know, and then

2 test and say "Oh, gosh, you know what? This really

3 doesn't work for us," you know, so that's that.

4 You know, I think in terms of timing, you know,

5 Ashley and I were discussing, you know, this is a 2015

6 thing. Okay? Period. End of sentence. You guys want

7 to work out the math earlier, later, it's 2015; it's not

8 a 2016 deadline. So feel free to do it earlier in the

9 process or later in the process, but we're sitting here

10 in mid-June and we have five and a half months, we'll use

11 it any way you guys think is appropriate.

12 MR. deLASKI: What strikes me is that since --

13 we don't -- you know, again, I'm not an ACEEE test method

14 expert. There are a few in the room, but many of us are

15 trying to sort of guide and process that we're not expert

16 and we don't know. So what I would say is, it seems to

17 me that you probably would want to have a first meeting

18 in September rather than push it out to October, because

19 if there's issues, you want to surface them sooner rather

20 than later; right? So why push it out to that first week

21 in October?

22 So why not form the group in the summertime,

23 people have a chance to spend -- hopefully we'll have a

24 test method very soon -- they'll have a chance to work to

25 it, to react to it, to assess it, choose what's most
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1 meaningful. So then September 1 you'd be having your

2 first face-to-face and instead of having one month to

3 work on the test method, you have two months to work on

4 the test method if you need it or maybe you have another

5 thing to work on that's the topic. But why not start to

6 process in September with that December 31st deadline.

7 MR. CYMBALSKY: And I know Ashley already said

8 this, but along with -- just to reinforce the point --

9 along with the test procedure is going to be the analysis

10 that we did, which is -- it's a NOPR analysis, right.

11 And it has the analysis and all the conversions from all

12 the old --

13 MR. deLASKI: So that would be released with or

14 about the same time?

15 MR. CYMBALSKY: Our plan is to do is

16 simultaneously. So you're going to get it -- you're not

17 only going to get what the SNOPR looks like, you're going

18 to get DOE's testing results and that kind of thing baked

19 into a full TSD.

20 MR. CASKEY: And this is John Caskey. So when

21 do you think that might happen?

22 MR. CYMBALSKY: So I think --

23 MR. CASKEY: Were you saying mid-July or

24 something in that order?

25 MS. ARMSTRONG: I think July.
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1 MR. CASKEY: So I think you're going in the

2 right direction in terms of starting this earlier, but I

3 would still -- I don't see any reason not to go ahead and

4 establish if we are going to decide and create a working

5 group, why not go ahead and have that group of people

6 getting together in August to start to discuss the test

7 procedures? And then they've still got plenty of time to

8 discuss the rule before the December 31 deadline.

9 I mean, I think there's value in discussing the

10 test procedures as a group as opposed to not doing

11 anything until, like, the public comment period is over

12 with. But as you said, I mean -- I don't -- I don't have

13 a big dog in this fight. So I mean, I relied to the

14 other manufacturers that have more involvement in this

15 particular technology, but it seems to me the earlier

16 they get started, the better.

17 MR. deLASKI: That's a good point. And I guess

18 I put it back to the people who are involved in these

19 previous discussions on test methods more deeply, which

20 is that -- are you going to be ready? Is there enough

21 work that's been done that you're ready to talk in

22 mid-August or do you need that full month before you're

23 even ready? If it's issues that have already been

24 discussed elsewhere, you've already tested on them, maybe

25 you already know. The lines are sort of perhaps already
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1 drawn, and it's just an issue of seeing -- you know,

2 confirming that.

3 MS. JAKOBS: This is Diane. And the issues that

4 have been raised, that doesn't mean that there's test

5 data behind it. You just know it makes it worse, it

6 makes it less. You don't know -- I think we have 13 SEER

7 or 14 SEER or 15 SEER -- 17 SEER I remember -- I don't --

8 We have a new platform just got introduced, so there's a

9 full line of each those. Then there's mix-matched

10 ratings. There's heat pumps.

11 I mean, anything we could do in a month would

12 maybe be we could test three out of 50, 60 models. I

13 mean, it's going to be a big leap to say what -- what you

14 can infer from whatever testing anyone can do. It all

15 depends on what the changes are, but --

16 MR. CYMBALSKY: So let me read a comment from

17 Rusty because this gets to your point. So he -- Rusty

18 Tharp on the phone commented on timing, and he thinks

19 three months is very aggressive given the need and the

20 unknown impact, but this is the statement that I think is

21 pretty important to read.

22 The impact of the unknown test procedure

23 changes, and this is the key part: While we may know in

24 general, such as an external static pressure change is

25 coming, we don't know what it is. And he goes on to say,
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1 three to four months type of thing.

2 So you know, I'm not saying what's in the test

3 procedure, but there's one thing that's been thrown out

4 there by a manufacturer.

5 MS. ARMSTRONG: So Andrew, can I make a

6 suggestion? Because it is 12:30, perhaps we break for

7 lunch. The people that asked for this working group can

8 consider the timeline they may want to suggest to ASRAC

9 to consider.

10 But with that being said, they've heard John's

11 hard stop with December 31st at least from DOE's

12 perspective, so working within those confines, what is it

13 they want ASRAC to consider?

14 MR. AMRANE: This is Karim, maybe for John here,

15 can you explain to us what the hard time December -- why

16 is it December?

17 MR. CYMBALSKY: This is John from DOE. So the

18 negotiated rulemakings are not a forum to elongate the

19 time. And as Charlie more eloquently spoke to it than I

20 can for the commercial unitary air conditioning where we

21 already put out a NOPR, we said, "The timing's everything

22 here." And the first working group met April 28th, and

23 on June 15th, we had a term sheet. I know this will be

24 a little longer -- well, a lot longer, but, you know,

25 maybe double the time or more because of the test
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1 procedure potential changes.

2 So there's no reason why that case doesn't hold

3 here. I mean, what we're doing is getting people in the

4 room to get to a negotiated settlement in a time period

5 that's similar to what DOE's rulemaking schedule was.

6 It's not -- it's not a forum to double or triple the time

7 that DOE would normally take. That's not what this --

8 what these negotiations are about.

9 I understand that certain groups would like more

10 time, but I understand that; however, DOE's very clear

11 that this -- and we'll work as hard as possible to make

12 that happen -- but it is a working group and it means you

13 have to work. We're doing this in place of what our

14 normal rulemaking process is. It's not to extend the

15 timeline. That is not --

16 MR. deLASKI: John, the normal process would be

17 a NOPR published next month. So you're saying we're not

18 going to post a NOPR next month, but we want a NOPR by

19 the end of the year. Basically, you're accepting a

20 six-month delay in the process to accommodate this

21 request.

22 MR. CYMBALSKY: That's right.

23 MS. CLEARY: Can you tell us what the statutory

24 or regulatory requirements are on --

25 MR. CYMBALSKY: For the NOPR? I think Dave
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1 Winningham had --

2 MR. deLASKI: The requirement, I think Dave said

3 it already but it's within that period, no later.

4 MR. WINNINGHAM: It's either June or July 2017.

5 MR. deLASKI: No later than.

6 MR. CYMBALSKY: No later than.

7 MS. CLEARY: Right. So I guess I understood

8 Karim's question to be: Why the rush?

9 MR. CYMBALSKY: For the regulatory agenda?

10 MS. CLEARY: Yeah.

11 MR. CYMBALSKY: I mean, that's what we published

12 to the public; that was our plan all along.

13 MS. CLEARY: So I think I understand your point

14 on, you know, not using the negotiations as a forum to

15 elongate the process; however, I think one distinction --

16 and I'm trying to understand if this distinction is the

17 case in this rulemaking is -- you know, the terms sheet

18 that we just approved today, there was a statutory

19 deadline and that was the reason why it needed to move

20 quickly if I understand correctly.

21 So I want to make sure that we're not imposing

22 that need to move quickly in cases where DOE might not

23 be, you know, up against that kind of a statutory

24 deadline. I'm not suggesting that working groups should

25 go on for a year or six months even, but what I am
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1 suggesting is, I want to know a reason for why the end of

2 December -- you know, why the end-of-the-year deadline?

3 Not -- if it's going to cause problems, if it's going to

4 make an analysis not based on reason or on a complete

5 test procedure, you know, I see no reason to move quickly

6 for no reason. So I want to understand, I think, what

7 those statutory deadlines are.

8 MR. CYMBALSKY: So we're moving slower based on

9 initial conversations first of all. We're not speeding

10 anything up, we're actually slowing down. As you know,

11 the administration has been very up front about its

12 climate action plan goals of which this rule is part of.

13 So it's going to fit within the time frame of the climate

14 action plan.

15 There is a policy decision made and a schedule

16 published for this rulemaking in the regulatory agenda.

17 And so again, you know, DOE's willing to give the six

18 months or so to negotiate this in good faith. And so

19 that's -- that's, you know, that's what we intend to do.

20 MR. deLASKI: The other point I would make is

21 typically it's the working group that set their -- once

22 they've been formed, they set their meeting schedule,

23 right. So we kind of set -- we pick the members, we had

24 a start date and an end date, and they do everything in

25 between, right, so -- unless we impose something else.
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1 So I think we should probably want to pick a --

2 a start date. I'm kind of coming down to where John's at

3 which is, let them start sooner rather than later, you

4 know. If they have their first meeting in, you know,

5 early August and they scope their plan and maybe it's

6 just a one-day meeting. We did a one-day meeting, I

7 think, on commercialized heat, just strawed it because we

8 didn't have that much substance yet, but it's good to get

9 together to spend a day just working on your ground

10 rules. Although, I think we did it in an hour in

11 commercial AC.

12 And then you can sequence it from there based on

13 how much time, for example, manufacturer would say in

14 that meeting they need useful -- how much time do I need

15 in my lab that would be useful before we're down here

16 face-to-face again?

17 So that would be my -- I second the negotiation

18 and welcome a recommendation from the folks who have

19 asked for the six months. Basically there's been a

20 request: Don't publish the NOPR that was about to come

21 out, let's negotiate instead. That's the nature of this

22 request.

23 The department's saying, "Okay. We won't

24 publish the NOPR, but we want the deadline at end of the

25 year." That's sort of the -- that's the terms that we're
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1 talking about here. So start sooner, end on the

2 deadline. That's kind of the gist of it.

3 MR. CYMBALSKY: I agree. I don't think there's

4 any harm in having that initial meeting. And if you're

5 not ready to test, you don't have data, that's fine. But

6 like Andrew said, you can take care of all the

7 administrative stuff that may or may not take a day or

8 half a day or whatever and -- and you could air some

9 dirty laundry on what you've seen, right, and go back

10 and -- go back and both sides and everyone think about

11 initial thoughts to the test procedure and the data. I

12 don't think there's any harm in that.

13 MR. deLASKI: So with that thought, we can

14 either take a vote now, something along those lines.

15 We've covered it enough, or we can come back after lunch.

16 MS. JAKOBS: So could we -- sorry, this is

17 Diane. So could we have informal working group have a

18 meeting or two, report back, and then set a final date

19 with saying the preferred date is the end of the year or

20 something? I mean --

21 MR. CYMBALSKY: I mean, I would just say, take

22 the end of the year and that's -- right? That's the best

23 case scenario for the most time; right? And so just

24 say -- just say that.

25 MALE SPEAKER: Can we negotiate it back to
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1 November?

2 (Laughter.)

3 MR. CYMBALSKY: That's fine if people want to do

4 that, but I would just say take December 31st and kind of

5 be like, "Okay. We're willing to take all the time

6 you're willing to give us." So I thought that's what you

7 might want that.

8 MS. JAKOBS: So John, this is Diane with -- so

9 you said you were advancing the regulations in response

10 to President Obama's climate plan. Is that in conflict

11 with what the regulation is if Dave's saying that it has

12 to be done?

13 MR. CYMBALSKY: No later than.

14 MS. JAKOBS: No later than.

15 MR. CYMBALSKY: Right, and even if we finish

16 earlier, there's still regulation about compliance dates

17 spreads of five years. So if we finish a rule early,

18 you'll have more time at end.

19 MS. JAKOBS: Oh, okay.

20 MR. CYMBALSKY: Based on when the last

21 compliance date was, right. So that -- that's set in

22 stone. We can't do that. So don't --

23 MS. JAKOBS: So you can't --

24 MR. CYMBALSKY: Just because we're doing this

25 sooner doesn't mean --
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1 MR. deLASKI: The soonest this one can take

2 effect if I do the math right is 2021. There's a lockout

3 period.

4 MR. CYMBALSKY: Right. So it's a three-year

5 compliance date for this, but if that three years doesn't

6 keep the five-year spread, it will have to be three years

7 plus whatever that extra time is.

8 MR. deLASKI: So you're going to end up with

9 knowing the answer sooner.

10 MR. CYMBALSKY: Right, and then it gives you

11 more time at the end to comply. So you can do this

12 either way. And I know Jen and I have had this

13 conversation about, you know, one of the AHAM products,

14 and it's like, "Where do you want your time?" It's like,

15 "Oh, you just finished a rule. Why are you doing this?"

16 But you still get that -- that five-year certainty, yeah.

17 MR. deLASKI: So I would suggest in the interest

18 of lunch that -- again, from my view, I'm ready to vote

19 on this. And I think --

20 MR. AMRANE: We can.

21 MR. deLASKI: What's that?

22 MR. AMRANE: Let's vote.

23 MR. deLASKI: Right. Let's vote. We want to

24 form a working group, we want to set an initial meeting

25 for early August, and set an end-of-the-year deadline for
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1 a final -- for our terms sheet.

2 MR. CYMBALSKY: Can I second that?

3 MR. deLASKI: I hear a second.

4 MS. CLEARY: I think my only discussion is that

5 as a general matter, I am concerned about the quality of

6 the analysis in order to push rules forward on a timeline

7 that's earlier than required. So that's not going to

8 stop me from voting on this, but I just want to put that

9 on the record, that's very concerning to me, and it's

10 happening on several rulemakings.

11 MS. JAKOBS: I would like to agree with Jen

12 that, I mean, we weren't going on production based on the

13 last rule production date and we were having manufacturer

14 impact interviews and so the products weren't in the

15 field yet and we were already talking about the next

16 round. And I don't know how good our answers were,

17 just -- not because we don't care, but because we have no

18 idea. And the regional standards has made it more

19 complicated, and even now we don't know what the impact

20 of that is. So I don't know how you would do the

21 analysis of something that hasn't happened yet. So thank

22 you.

23 MR. deLASKI: Any --

24 MS. KLINE: This is Kelley. I agree with that,

25 too. And it's not going to keep me from voting for it
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1 because I think the companies impacted by the rule are

2 supporting it, but I'm concerned about the test procedure

3 piece and the impending test procedure overlapping with

4 the commencement of the discussions.

5 MR. deLASKI: Any further discussion? I'm

6 actually really pleased to hear that the manufacturers

7 interviews there's already been a round of those and

8 there's already been considerable work done that we will

9 see. So I'm glad the manufacturers cooperated with those

10 and did those interviews and that we have an analysis

11 that we soon will see. And that in my experience, the

12 reg-neg will result in that analysis, the quality of it

13 getting even better before we get to a final

14 recommendation.

15 So any further discussion? Any objections to

16 approving this working group with those terms? Okay.

17 We're going to -- let's -- that took longer than

18 expected, so we're now at ten of 1:00. Should we come

19 back at 1:30 or is that too fast? I think we better give

20 ourselves until with 1:45 to come back. So we'll

21 reconvene here at 1:45. Thanks, everybody.

22 (Lunch recess was taken.)

23 MR. deLASKI: So let's get restarted. We had

24 set aside this afternoon for reports back from the folks

25 who had taken assignments in our last meeting on some of
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1 the cross-cutting topics that we had, and our time has

2 been truncated somewhat because of the morning agenda

3 taking a little longer than anticipated.

4 I, for one, actually have to -- because of an

5 evening commitment, I have to catch a flight and I have

6 to leave at 2:30; although, I know others may have time

7 constraints, too. So let's push ahead, and I think we

8 also want to -- I think at the end we usually leave time

9 for public comment as well, so that needs to happen.

10 Yeah, well, I don't know who's on the webinar,

11 there's always that opportunity, too. Is there a

12 question?

13 MR. CYMBALSKY: Yeah, so John Caskey had a

14 question about if we put up his slides for people on the

15 webinar to see it’s become in the docket and all that.

16 But normally, yes is the answer. But if you don't want

17 it, then we could just do the handout.

18 MR. deLASKI: Okay. Let's --

19 MR. CASKEY: So it's sort of my notes

20 (inaudible).

21 MR. deLASKI: Of your little subgroup.

22 MR. CASKEY: Which, I don't know if you want to

23 show my notes or just my (inaudible) notes (inaudible).

24 MR. deLASKI: Here's what I would suggest, given

25 our limited time today, why don't we -- we have some
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1 business items we need to take care of in terms of our

2 schedule in terms of a couple things to clean up on that

3 last topic. Let's clean up our business items first.

4 Let's take quick reports from the working --

5 from the -- I don't know why I want to call them working

6 groups, but the sub-committees or what have you of this

7 committee that took some assignments, and then it may be

8 that we want to then adjourn and let those subgroups, I

9 think, maybe would be useful to meet face-to-face today

10 for a few minutes of time that we had.

11 MR. CASKEY: No, that's okay. I was just

12 interested in the issue about the public record and stuff

13 like that. I mean, I can summarize what we have so far.

14 MR. CYMBALSKY: I think the best thing to do is

15 to orally summarize your notes and not distribute them.

16 MR. deLASKI: Yeah, if you're not ready for that

17 yet, yeah.

18 So we need to pick ASRAC committee designees for

19 the committee we just formed for residential central air

20 conditioners and heat pumps. So are there volunteers for

21 that committee? Well, we need to have ASRAC committee

22 members. So I'm going to volunteer for this committee,

23 so I'm one.

24 MS. JAKOBS: I'll be participating, but I'll be

25 may be Karen's alternate, so --
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1 MR. deLASKI: Okay.

2 MS. JAKOBS: I mean, I'll be on.

3 MR. deLASKI: So I'm happy to be the -- I'm the

4 designee, and we assume that Rheem with apply for the

5 committee since it may not be you in person. Okay.

6 MR. CYMBALSKY: And I can speak from DOE, Tony

7 Bouza will be the DOE rep.

8 MR. deLASKI: Okay. Just when I finish up

9 commercial, I get to go to a new one. Okay.

10 MR. CYMBALSKY: I'm going to take a break from

11 the working group activity.

12 MR. deLASKI: And then we also just go ahead and

13 schedule our next meetings. Seems to me -- why don't we

14 do a phone call in July, because in July we're going to

15 have to form the AC working group. I don't think we need

16 it in person for that, but why don't we think about doing

17 a phone call. Someone mentioned perhaps --

18 MS. JAKOBS: So you were talking about reporting

19 back? The AC group will be reporting back? Maybe that

20 would be a good time for a face-to-face.

21 MR. deLASKI: Well, I think we need one before

22 that to form the AC group.

23 MS. JAKOBS: Well, yeah, that would be the

24 webinar.

25 MR. deLASKI: Let's pick a time for that first.
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1 MS. JAKOBS: Okay.

2 MR. deLASKI: Looks like the miscellaneous

3 refrig meets on the 15th and the 16th. How about the

4 14th.

5 FEMALE SPEAKER: Of July?

6 MR. deLASKI: Of July.

7 MR. CYMBALSKY: I think there's a -- is that

8 cooking products --

9 MR. deLASKI: How about the 13th?

10 MS. JAKOBS: I'll be on vacation.

11 MR. ECKMAN: I won't. I'll just be landing from

12 two weeks out of the office.

13 MR. deLASKI: I don't want to go past the 15th

14 because then we start losing time.

15 MALE SPEAKER: You could do the week before.

16 MS. JAKOBS: I'll be back on the 15th.

17 MR. ECKMAN: 13th's just better for me.

18 FEMALE SPEAKER: I don't think you're going to

19 get everybody.

20 MS. JAKOBS: 16th?

21 MR. deLASKI: No, 16th is miscellaneous

22 refrigeration meets. How about we say 1:00 p.m. on the

23 13th? We lose Tom. Do we lose anybody else?

24 MS. JAKOBS: Me.

25 MR. deLASKI: Diane?
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1 MR. ECKMAN: On the phone I can do it as long as

2 it's under two hours.

3 MS. JAKOBS: I'll be on a motorcycle, maybe I

4 can figure out how to participate on motorcycle.

5 MR. CYMBALSKY: Are you driving the motorcycle?

6 MS. JAKOBS: No.

7 MR. CYMBALSKY: I was going to say, that's

8 impressive.

9 MR. deLASKI: If we move to -- what's our

10 quorum? I've forgotten what our quorum is.

11 MR. CYMBALSKY: I think it's 80 percent.

12 MR. deLASKI: And we have Scott and John.

13 MR. CYMBALSKY: Yeah, I would try to get eight

14 people who are here today to say yes.

15 MR. deLASKI: That's a little tough. That puts

16 us in a pretty tough -- pretty tight if we lose two

17 quorum.

18 MALE SPEAKER: Why can't you do (inaudible).

19 MR. deLASKI: I'm thinking we need to get this

20 committee -- we want to get the committee working group

21 formed. Why don't we -- how about --

22 MR. CYMBALSKY: What's that Monday of the next

23 week?

24 MR. deLASKI: Next --

25 MR. CYMBALSKY: Oh, it is the 20th?
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1 MR. deLASKI: Is that when you meet, John? In

2 terms of your -- anything else in this committee to

3 consider?

4 MR. CYMBALSKY: Yeah, we were hoping for the

5 middle of the month to have the next ASRAC. The 7th --

6 MALE SPEAKER: The 17th of?

7 MR. CYMBALSKY: I think the 7th. It's a Friday;

8 right?

9 MS. JAKOBS: 17th works for me.

10 MR. deLASKI: Does it work for you?

11 MR. CYMBALSKY: Yeah.

12 MR. deLASKI: Okay. I'll like early afternoon

13 East Coast time, 1:00 p.m.

14 MR. CYMBALSKY: We have David -- David

15 Hungerford on the webinar?

16 MR. HUNGERFORD: I am, I joined a couple of

17 minutes late. So what are you discussing?

18 MR. deLASKI: A phone call -- phone call meeting

19 on July 17th on 1:00 p.m. Eastern, 10:00 a.m. Pacific to

20 consider membership in the working group for central air

21 conditioning.

22 FEMALE SPEAKER: 2:00?

23 MR. deLASKI: 2:00 p.m. is fine with me.

24 Anybody object to 2:00 p.m.?

25 So David, before you came back, I volunteered to
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1 be the designee from this committee to the working group

2 on central air conditioners, but I don't know whether you

3 wanted to volunteer for that working group as well

4 because I know you express some interest.

5 MR. HUNGERFORD: Thanks. Well, I'd be happy to

6 serve.

7 MR. deLASKI: We have one already so it's not

8 like we need another one. So you also can apply as a

9 public participant.

10 MR. HUNGERFORD: No, that's fine. And the 17th

11 is open for me.

12 MR. deLASKI: Okay. So then we're looking ahead

13 to a -- I'm looking at an August meeting assuming that we

14 have a term sheets from these two working groups coming

15 back to us in mid-August.

16 FEMALE SPEAKER: August in Washington?

17 MR. deLASKI: Yeah. Okay.

18 FEMALE SPEAKER: Isn't the fan and blowers in

19 the same (inaudible).

20 MS. ARMSTRONG: August 6th, August 6th.

21 MR. deLASKI: So we can try to do the meeting in

22 the middle of August or we could put it off to September.

23 If we do that, then we're going to need to have a phone

24 call to deal with whatever -- whatever is coming out of

25 the fans group at that point.
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1 So should we try to do a phone call to deal with

2 the fans group, and then have more of a -- whatever the

3 fan group works and then have a full in person meeting in

4 September in -- and I see a lot of nodding. I don't see

5 a lot of eagerness for in person in August in D.C.

6 MR. CYMBALSKY: The air conditioning works,

7 what's the issue? (Simultaneous speaking.)

8 MR. deLASKI: We could do a phone call on the

9 10th.

10 FEMALE SPEAKER: August 10th?

11 MR. deLASKI: Yeah.

12 MALE SPEAKER: We're here.

13 MR. deLASKI: You're here the 11th and 12th

14 according to my calendar.

15 MALE SPEAKER: Yeah, I'm traveling on the 10th.

16 MALE SPEAKER: Yeah, I'm on the 10th, 11th,

17 12th.

18 MR. deLASKI: Could we do the 13th? That way we

19 can get a report from NREF.

20 FEMALE SPEAKER: Okay. 13's good.

21 MR. deLASKI: 2:00 p.m. again?

22 MR. CYMBALSKY: August 13th.

23 FEMALE SPEAKER: And one's the 17th and one's

24 the 13th.

25 MALE SPEAKER: One hour or two hours?
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1 MR. deLASKI: Better put it down for two given

2 the -- given the earlier conversation with fans and this

3 this'll -- this'll -- we may be facing some difficult

4 choices on fans. 2:00 to 4:00, yes.

5 And it seems to me that we should shoot for an

6 in person in September then, so the middle of the month.

7 FEMALE SPEAKER: The 14th? We can do the 14th.

8 MR. deLASKI: Thursdays are good? Thursday,

9 September 17th? Should we do 10:00 to 3:00 again?

10 MR. ECKMAN: I'm out that --

11 MR. deLASKI: You're out that week, Tom? Or

12 you're out that --

13 MR. ECKMAN: I could call in.

14 FEMALE SPEAKER: Yeah, that's going to be the

15 same for me that week.

16 MR. deLASKI: How about the following week,

17 would that be better?

18 MALE SPEAKER: Later that week.

19 MR. deLASKI: How about 9/24, 10:00 to 3:00.

20 Any objection? Okay. We have our schedule for the next

21 three months.

22 MALE SPEAKER: And that's in person in --

23 MR. deLASKI: In person at DOE. Is that okay

24 with you guys in terms of scheduling a room and that kind

25 of thing? It's always a bit of a --
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1 MS. ARMSTRONG: I'll look now. We can keep

2 going.

3 MR. deLASKI: Okay. Then the other --

4 FEMALE SPEAKER: (Inaudible.)

5 MR. deLASKI: Do you have them written down?

6 Yeah, you have them written down. So July 17th, let's

7 allow two hours, 2:00 to 4:00. August 13th, 2:00 to 4:00

8 eastern. September twenty --

9 FEMALE SPEAKER: 29th?

10 MR. deLASKI: 24th is what I said. That's the

11 24th.

12 FEMALE SPEAKER: The 24th is 10:00 to 3:00 you

13 said?

14 MR. deLASKI: 10:00 to 3:00.

15 FEMALE SPEAKER: Okay.

16 MR. deLASKI: Now, the other bit of business I

17 think we need to attend to is membership in the

18 committee. The department put out a notice -- people

19 have probably noticed the last couple weeks ago --

20 soliciting new members for the committee. I think some

21 people are going to term out this year.

22 Do you want to update people or can one of you

23 guys update people on what the terms are?

24 MS. ARMSTRONG: Yeah, so the only people I think

25 terming out this year at the end of the year are John
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1 Mandyck and Scott Harris. And so with the influx in

2 interest in the committee, the department is asking that

3 anyone that wants to -- for those that are terming out,

4 if they want to continue on, they need to reapply and be

5 considered as part of the full applicant process just so

6 that we can give people equal opportunity to participate

7 if they wish. And so those are the only two that matter

8 for this nomination process. I think you noted that the

9 nomination period ends in July, probably mid-July, I

10 think.

11 FEMALE SPEAKER: Have you started getting

12 interest yet?

13 MS. ARMSTRONG: Oh, yeah.

14 MR. deLASKI: And then everyone else terms --

15 terms -- the next group would be terming out at the end

16 of the following year, is that the way that it works? Is

17 anybody terming out -- they're all on calendar year

18 schedules?

19 MR. CYMBALSKY: Yeah, December is the term out.

20 So Ashley already mentioned the two that are rotating --

21 well, their terms are up. So we ask them to reapply if

22 they want to stay on.

23 MR. deLASKI: Okay.

24 MR. CYMBALSKY: Neither one of them are here

25 today.
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1 MR. deLASKI: I presume that you'll let them

2 know that directly -- some way or another directly.

3 FEMALE SPEAKER: (Inaudible) is it two spots

4 or --

5 MR. CYMBALSKY: It would be those two. But, you

6 know, if they reapply, you know, I'll consider them all

7 together. We can add membership all the time, right.

8 The charter for the groups is roughly 12 so that gives

9 us -- we can have 15, maybe. I don't know. It all

10 depends on the applicants that come in and this -- the

11 reason we're -- the people are like, "You doing this in

12 December, why are you calling for them now?"

13 Well, because the secretary himself actually

14 chooses FACA committee members, so this package goes all

15 the way to the top. So it takes time to screen the

16 applicants. Last time we had -- we had -- we had a lot

17 of -- yeah, it did. Deborah can tell you --

18 MS. MILLER: Nine months.

19 MR. CYMBALSKY: But we had a lot of applicants,

20 and quality applicants, and it's good. You know, I think

21 it reflects on the good work we're doing. So we will,

22 I'm sure, get another good pile of applicants to sift

23 through.

24 MR. deLASKI: I think you're -- the charter --

25 or the statute requires you is balance in all respects;
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1 right? Stakeholders and geography.

2 MR. CYMBALSKY: Geography, yeah, race, sex,

3 everything is -- yeah, taken into account for membership

4 of the committee. That's right.

5 MR. deLASKI: Interests? Okay.

6 MR. CYMBALSKY: Yep.

7 MR. deLASKI: That's what I think we had for

8 business. John?

9 MR. CASKEY: When I looked at my calendar for

10 this meeting, I actually had it, I think, penciled in for

11 Monday, and then it was moved to today from my

12 perspective. Or did everybody have it on their calendar

13 for today initially? This was the planned date? Okay.

14 Because I must have put it in my calendar wrong then.

15 MR. deLASKI: I had it right, so --

16 MR. CASKEY: Okay.

17 FEMALE SPEAKER: Different times, but that's all

18 right.

19 MR. deLASKI: I think 10:00 to 3:00 gives us

20 sufficient time. Any other business? I'm actually

21 looking -- make sure we can get a room.

22 MS. ARMSTRONG: 24th? We're good, I'll reserve

23 it now. Oh, actually, it's going to be 1-E -- no, no,

24 both of them are available, we're good.

25 MR. CYMBALSKY: I did not, but I can.
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1 MS. ARMSTRONG: I'll do it right now.

2 MR. CYMBALSKY: At some point they're supposed

3 to redo this room, so I don't -- you know, they keep

4 pushing it back and as of now September's available, but

5 either way we have a room, so we're good.

6 MR. deLASKI: All right. So we have three items

7 on our agenda for the next block and, you know, I haven't

8 had a chance to check in with folks who were -- who

9 volunteered for these various tasks. So I think we're

10 going to just turn it to those who volunteered for the

11 tasks to give us an update on what they've been able to

12 do and what they see as sort of some next steps.

13 And John, I think you're up first.

14 MR. CASKEY: Okay. Great, John Caskey at NEMA.

15 And this is a group dealing with sort of a discussion

16 about systems and the team people that we have are -- the

17 subgroup people so far are myself, David Hungerford,

18 Diane, and Jennifer. So we haven't had a meeting yet.

19 We've got that scheduled for July 1st, it's a

20 teleconference.

21 But in preparation for our first meeting, I put

22 together some notes. And ironically, I mean, during

23 today's discussion we've already had several discussions

24 around what we're referring to as systems and how do we

25 cover fans that are in a refrigerator or fans that are in
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1 an HVAC system, things like that. But just from my

2 perspective, there's a lot of opportunities to get some

3 pretty good bang for the buck by looking at systems

4 efficiency.

5 So some of the opportunities that are out there,

6 again, these are sort of my notes so far and we haven't

7 discussed this as a team, so once we do talk as a team,

8 then we'll come back with some additional sort of

9 clarification or some additional notes. But one of the

10 big advantages is just to look at systems efficiency that

11 there's a lot of bang for the bucks out there, and

12 ultimately there's a lot of opportunities to reduce --

13 significantly reduce energy consumption.

14 The other thing is there's an evolution of

15 control technologies and monitoring technologies and

16 wireless communications, and controlling devices is a lot

17 easier than it was ten or 20 years ago, and there may be

18 some opportunities there to put these things together as

19 systems and control the overall system efficiency.

20 Then potentially, you know, instead of -- you

21 know, I've been most familiar with like distribution

22 transformers, and we're getting to the point where it's

23 more and more expensive to try and get that next quad of

24 energy out of distribution transformers. And if you look

25 at things from a systems perspective, you may be able to
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1 get more energy savings for lower costs to the consumer

2 overall. So that's another thing for consideration.

3 Another thing that's sort of an interest of mine

4 is that, again, a good example is distribution

5 transformers is that you have an energy efficiency that's

6 required to go into effect on January 1 of 2016, and when

7 transformers fail, then the owners will be replacing

8 those. But before they fail, I think most people are not

9 going to consider replacing an existing, functioning

10 device, whether it be a refrigerator or whether it be a

11 transformer with a high efficiency device or whether it

12 be HVAC until the old device actually fails.

13 So my question is, as a group, do we have a

14 influence in trying to provide education to say in a

15 business case -- there is a business case for replacing

16 your HVAC system before it actually fails and you may

17 reap enough energy savings to actually pay for that

18 capital investment. So just some topics like that that

19 I think are worthwhile investigating.

20 In terms of a definition, the definition that I

21 started with as just throwing it out to the other team

22 members is a system is defined as "a collection of

23 individual devices that includes monitoring, analysis,

24 control, and communication capabilities to manage the

25 operation of the device." And I'm saying a system can
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1 range from a Lumière that includes a control of a single

2 lamp, to a lighting system that includes day lighting and

3 occupancy sensors, to a cooling system that includes a

4 motor, compressor pumps, fans and other associated

5 controls.

6 So I've outlined a few of the potential concerns

7 that, certainly, as you move to the systems, it's

8 oftentimes more difficult to measure that energy

9 efficiency of those units overall. And to make sure that

10 that, you know, once you get controls involved and day

11 lighting and things like that, how do you make sure that

12 you're actually getting those savings sort of day in and

13 day out.

14 And another thing is, there was some of these

15 sort of things there's some pretty radical duty cycles

16 differences between if you got a lamp in a hallway where

17 people are walking by, you know, every day, then you

18 might only be able to save 5 or 10 percent with some

19 sort of occupancy sensor.

20 But if you got a room in the basement that

21 hardly anybody goes to and the kids leave the lights on,

22 then putting an occupancy sensor can save a pretty large

23 amount of money, but it's hard to quantify those

24 benefits.

25 So anyway, those are kind of the concepts going
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1 into this. I've outlined some potential steps that we

2 might want to consider here. And one is just to see if

3 there really is enough interest among some ASHRAE

4 members to participate in this and see how far we can

5 get.

6 Another item is really to help, you know, refine

7 or define what a system really is from their perspective

8 of the members. And then from there, start to brainstorm

9 what are some of the impacts associated with energy

10 efficiency in the systems perspective. And then what of

11 those things fall under some DOE purview as opposed to

12 some of the those things that might be outside of things

13 that DOE can get involved with.

14 So these are just some rough ideas relative to

15 getting the group started, some talking points. And

16 again, we plan to have our first teleconference on July

17 1st, and then I'll report after that hopefully at our --

18 I think our meeting on July 17th.

19 MR. deLASKI: Okay.

20 MR. CASKEY: Any questions or any other comments

21 from the other volunteers?

22 MR. deLASKI: Thanks for moving that forward,

23 John. And I think we'll have a -- you know, once you

24 have a chance to meet with your other people who

25 volunteered for that group, then you guys could advance
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1 that.

2 MR. ECKMAN: Just as a comment on -- thinking in

3 the near term, seems to me that both pumps and fans are

4 facing system problems because we're trying to look at an

5 integrated product that has -- that might be a part of a

6 system or it might be just the blade. Whatever, it's a

7 pump blade or -- but the pump regulation is now looking

8 at a definition that includes the control and the motor,

9 in addition to the housing and the pump.

10 So that's in and of -- that's a small system,

11 but it has all the pieces John's talked about. And the

12 fan may end up being in a similar case where you've got a

13 motor, a controller, and a blade that's moving the

14 liquid -- or the fluid, in this case. So it -- I don't

15 think we're very far away from having the -- the issues

16 that come about on -- on regulating systems as opposed to

17 pieces of them. It's right in front of us right now with

18 the fans.

19 MS. JAKOBS: This is Diane Jakobs. I think the

20 discussion will be different. You have to worry about

21 usage and applications for systems that -- yeah, it will

22 be a good thing to talk about which is better and what

23 the advantages are; there's an upside to both, yeah.

24 MR. deLASKI: Any other questions for John?

25 Comments? So we look forward to your next report back at
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1 the July meeting.

2 MR. CYMBALSKY: Yeah. I mean, I guess from

3 DOE's perspective, the only thing we need to keep in mind

4 as we work through systems issues is, you know, the

5 statute for lots of these products is very clear on what

6 the regulated thing is, right. And sometimes it's not

7 the thing that we would all like to be able to regulate,

8 so we -- just keep that in mind.

9 MR. deLASKI: Yeah, I think in the past our

10 discussion on systems sometimes it talks about things

11 that DOE can do in the context of the program and

12 sometimes it hasn't. So I mean, I don't think those --

13 there's anything necessarily out of bounds for this group

14 to talk about. We just need to sort of recognize at what

15 point are we talking about something that can be done

16 through the Appliance Standards Program is something that

17 might be outside the scope of the program, but might be

18 well worth the time of these committee members to talk

19 about.

20 The next topic from last time was test methods,

21 and looking back at the minutes there were five people

22 who agreed to work on this topic and I don't know that

23 we had a chair.

24 MS. JAKOBS: Jen.

25 MR. deLASKI: Was it Jen? It was Kelley, Diane,
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1 Tom, Charlie, and Jen agreed to work on this topic.

2 MS. CLEARY: Sure. So I can report back, the

3 five of us did meet over the past couple of weeks, and

4 just to remind everyone what we were tasked with doing,

5 you know, we talked at our last meeting about a number of

6 different test procedure related issues. And it became

7 very clear during our discussion that this was definitely

8 an area we needed to tackle on this committee and maybe

9 even that this test procedure area was raising to the top

10 of the pile in terms of our priorities. But there were

11 so many different subissues in -- that were part of our

12 discussion that we really needed to categorize and

13 prioritize them in order for ASRAC, as a whole, to decide

14 which, if any, of the topics to pursue.

15 So we did categorize and prioritize. So I guess

16 just in the interest of time I'm going to assume that

17 everyone read the minutes and recalls the issues that we

18 discussed, and I planned to outline them, but I'll skip

19 that if everyone's okay with that and just talk about

20 how we categorized and prioritized.

21 So it occurred to us that several of the issues

22 theoretically could be addressed by the process

23 improvement rule. So one of the first questions we

24 asked was, you know, we don't want to end up just

25 parroting what's already in that rule, and so we would
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1 like to hopefully get some clarity from DOE as to some

2 of the roadblocks that it's facing in particular areas

3 in following what's in that rule. And that -- but that

4 helped us to categorize, I think, what we were looking

5 at and then prioritize.

6 So we saw that the issue of the -- what we -- we

7 categorized into the process improvement rule the

8 sequencing issue of test procedures coming before NOPRs

9 that we talked about actually this morning, as well as

10 identifying priorities and providing a timeline to

11 stakeholders as to what it can -- what we can expect in

12 terms of the rulemaking schedule.

13 And we saw that those two were connected by the

14 need that I think Kelley had proposed during our last

15 meeting of a granular rulemaking timeline. So we decided

16 to move that issue to the top of our priority list.

17 And we think that a good way to proceed there

18 would be to do maybe an example rulemaking where some

19 group of volunteers from this committee would identify,

20 you know, where in the time -- what in the timeline

21 should be shared with stakeholders and what data points.

22 So like I said, we tied the data needs to the

23 timeline as well. And the reason we did that is because

24 we think part of the data issue here is stakeholders

25 needing to know in advance when to start collecting and
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1 providing that information to the department and the

2 department needing to identify for stakeholders early on

3 what data it needs. So that would be first.

4 And then sort of parallel to that would be the

5 data piece and the -- what we're calling mechanisms for

6 following the process improvement rule, where I think we

7 need a little more information from DOE so as to what the

8 roadblocks it sees are in those areas so that we could

9 really target an ASRAC recommendation to those specific

10 roadblocks.

11 For example, if -- you know, what problems do

12 you see right now in identifying and obtaining data?

13 What roadblocks do you see in completing a test procedure

14 rulemaking prior to a NOPR? Those kinds of things. And

15 I think we have a general sense of them, but if DOE could

16 identify specifically for us needs that we might be able

17 to address, that would be helpful.

18 Then the remaining issues, one is test procedure

19 complexity. And I think we talked about, you know,

20 confusion on the test procedure and I think this was an

21 issue that Ashley had raised, you know, questions that

22 are coming up almost immediately or immediately after a

23 test procedure amendment is finalized. And so we

24 thought that that issue which could probably be dealt

25 with with an ASRAC recommendation of some kind of
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1 process for DOE to follow to ensure that labs are doing

2 the tests correctly. Like, maybe it's an education

3 session where everyone visits the same lab or something

4 like that, that that might be a more medium-term goal.

5 And that one I think we placed there on the priority

6 list because it seems relatively simple to address, but

7 the data issues, you know, we think are more important.

8 And then the last two we placed into the

9 longer-term category, and this would be the crosswalk

10 issues which is, you know, the policy to address the

11 situations where a test procedure change impacts

12 measured energy outside of a standards rulemaking. That

13 one is just incredibly complex, and I think maybe we're

14 at some point getting a briefing from OGC on that, I'm

15 guessing it's not today, but it's very complex. And so

16 we felt that that one just is going to take some more

17 time and dedicated effort.

18 And then the last item on our priorities list

19 was the fast-track test procedure idea, which is how DOE

20 could address, you know, some urgent revisions that

21 maybe are not controversial or don't impact measured

22 energy or efficiency on a quicker timeline so that those

23 changes can be made and the test procedure -- you know,

24 for example, maybe updating the versions of industry

25 standards that are incorporated by reference so long as
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1 there are no major changes, things of that nature. But

2 that one we just didn't see as important as the other

3 ones, so that's why we placed it last.

4 So I'm sure there are we questions about that.

5 It's a lot in one -- I should have done the slide, I

6 apologize. Would it be helpful as a next step, you

7 know, we didn't talk about this in the working group?

8 So if others have comments, but, you know, I expect that

9 maybe people want to digest this a little bit, so I'd be

10 glad to volunteer to put out some kind of writing that

11 maybe the working group can make sure is consistent with

12 our discussions and the rest of you can review prior to

13 our next meeting.

14 And then maybe we can -- I don't know if the

15 same members want to continue on a working group to

16 address some of these issues, but I think some of them I

17 would propose, we want to sort of seek volunteers for

18 each one of these as we -- once we decide within the

19 ASRAC which ones we're going to pursue and on which

20 timeline.

21 MS. JAKOBS: So this is Diane. Just to add on.

22 So the impression that I have just from the rulemakings

23 I'm involved in is that the data -- getting the right

24 data is a huge problem or challenge for you -- for the

25 department. But it seems today that you've done --
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1 you've done analysis, and then it gets presented, and

2 then maybe we disagree with it, and then you say, you

3 know, "I need data."

4 I know there's requests for information, but

5 somehow it's hard to know what you're looking for really

6 to respond to that. And so -- so there is just --

7 difficult to know like what really you're looking for.

8 And there's reluctance to give, like, individual entities

9 to give data, it's easier or seems safer to give it to

10 you as part of a group. So it seems like that whole

11 process is complicated.

12 And we were thinking about like a timeline, that

13 if we just knew that it was like in the five-year period

14 between rulemakings that you're probably going to be

15 doing this, and this is the type of data you would be

16 looking for, you know, would that be helpful? You know,

17 it seems like it would be repeatable.

18 MS. ARMSTRONG: Yeah. I mean, you know, it's

19 not -- it's not this big secret, the type of data we try

20 to seek and we try to collect and use. Many of you have

21 participated before in providing that, and we thank you

22 for that, and John has aggregated data for us before. So

23 sure, we're happy to engage in that conversation about

24 when and what types and what it might look like. You

25 know, at least a certain minimum set of data elements.
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1 I'm sure we can identify, it's a no-brainer that

2 we need shipments by efficiency level by product class

3 per every rule we do. It's not -- I mean, it's just one

4 of the drivers to the impact analysis. So every rule

5 we're going to ask for shipments by a product class, by

6 efficiency level, you know, across the board. So we can

7 definitely work with you.

8 So if you send that around, I'd be happy to --

9 you and I can talk, John and I can talk, we can provide

10 some level of feedback at least or at least maybe jump on

11 some of the discussions where we might be needed or

12 wanted and help -- help with that dialogue.

13 MR. deLASKI: What I would suggest is, John's

14 going to prepare a draft in consultation with the rest of

15 those members, and then at our July meeting we can talk

16 about what are the next steps, right. What are the right

17 next steps for that? But given that we don't have a

18 document to look at today, we probably should defer that

19 to our next meeting.

20 Any other questions from that one? Then the

21 last one was maximizing bang for the buck which I think

22 was you, Ashley.

23 MS. ARMSTRONG: So I don't have a whole lot to

24 say yet. We've raised the issues internally, we've had

25 those discussions. We don't have OGC here today to
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1 provide an opinion on that one.

2 We are looking at -- you know, I have raised

3 both to John and to counsel that, you know, the committee

4 has raised the issue about, you know, as the look backs

5 progress and how do we get to a point where, you know --

6 is there any minimum level of analysis we could do to

7 understand that, you know, this one is not right for

8 relooking at, versus this one isn't?

9 So we're having those discussions. When we have

10 some additional information, I'm going to pass it to the

11 committee for you guys to think about more and what

12 would that look like. We're still working on,

13 legal-wise, what is possible. So hang tight on that

14 one, you can keep my name as a to do, please.

15 MR. deLASKI: Okay.

16 MS. ARMSTRONG: And then, the better data one,

17 you know, I gave you our schedules, and to the extent the

18 data stuff we just talked about with regard to the rule.

19 But if we're talking about longer term, you know, kind of

20 like if -- what I would call usage data, consumer usage

21 data, you know, that's kind of you.

22 MR. ECKMAN: I sent a note to the prior work

23 group discussion that laid out some of those questions I

24 think need to be asked of every test procedure as you get

25 into the process of revision. And those are, you know,
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1 what are the test parameters that you actually need data

2 for that drive the answer that you don't have current

3 data for and going through and systematically looking at

4 each of those as the test procedure gets scheduled to be

5 reviewed.

6 So everybody has a forecast of when that data

7 would be useful. Because it takes a while to go collect

8 it sometimes, sometimes more than years. And as a

9 consequence, and knowing when that was coming down the

10 pike and what those data elements were that were most

11 critical, where you think there's nothing being collected

12 right now or no data set available or you've had to guess

13 in the past, it seems to be laying that out in a sort of

14 systematic schedule that maybe goes with the regulatory

15 agenda or is more expansive or even longer term than a

16 regulatory agenda. Because in some cases with the

17 regulatory agenda, there's not even lead time enough to

18 collect it. So it's just knowing you've got the six-year

19 review cycles. We lay it out for the next six years and

20 say, "By 2021 we need this. Anybody going to give us

21 that by 2021?"

22 Do they know now that they need to get? Because

23 it takes a while to organize, particularly if it needs to

24 be a representative study across the country to do that,

25 then the northwest doing it doesn't help -- it helps
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1 some, but it's not necessarily representative. We are

2 granola crunchers, after all.

3 And that's something, you know, we'll pass along

4 as that work groups' product in terms of, here's a

5 suggestion of a product that would be mutually useful for

6 our parties.

7 MS. ARMSTRONG: Great. Thanks.

8 MR. deLASKI: Anything else on this third item?

9 All right. So in summary, we're expecting a

10 couple of memos from the first two groups, and before our

11 discussion meeting in July and the recommendation --

12 (inaudible) plan for further (inaudible). That's what we

13 have for our planned agenda are the -- are there other

14 topics that other members want to bring up or that ASRAC

15 members want to bring up? We can open that up. And I

16 think it's been in our practice that we open it up for

17 comments.

18 So no audience? We can open it up to the

19 webinar. People on the webinar have anything they want

20 to share with the committee?

21 Ashley?

22 MS. ARMSTRONG: I just want to point out one

23 thing after we do this, it's just process.

24 MR. deLASKI: Do you want another moment?

25 Anything?
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1 MS. ARMSTRONG: All righty. So just as a

2 process matter, for the next call we are hopefully going

3 to have a nomination package for you guys. So I would

4 expect two webinars: A 30-minute webinar for private

5 discussion of nomination of that working group where we

6 discuss, and then the -- you'll see a different link for

7 the public part of the webinar so that the public can

8 join us for the rest of -- any of the rest of the

9 discussion we may want to have.

10 MS. MILLER: Can the -- it's Deborah. Can

11 Jeremiah or someone in your office just send an e-mail to

12 everyone so that we make sure that everyone has those

13 dates and times, please?

14 MS. ARMSTRONG: Yeah, yeah, yeah. We'll do

15 that. Do you guys want invites? Do you actually want

16 calendar invites? Is that easier?

17 MS. MILLER: That would be fabulous.

18 MS. ARMSTRONG: All right. Consider it done.

19 We'll send out a calendar invite and it will have the

20 webinar information in it. I just want to acknowledge

21 that, at least, part of the meeting next time because we

22 will need to do that needs to be private. So you do have

23 two separate things to deal with. So be on the look out

24 for that.

25 MR. deLASKI: So I just want to -- we did the
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1 scheduling here before we actually did the substance

2 here. So why don't we just confirm with the folks who

3 are in all the working groups, do you feel that that's

4 going to give us enough time to adequately discuss the

5 topics that you want to, you know, bring back to the

6 larger group?

7 Basically we're going to -- if we can get the

8 nominations in a half an hour -- which I hope we can --

9 kind of depends on whether it's anything difficult or

10 not; it hasn't been the last couple times. Then we have

11 an hour and a half to talk about these topics. Is that

12 sufficient?

13 MS. ARMSTRONG: I think that's enough to at

14 least get us started. I expect we'll just be sort of

15 getting everyone's sense at least on the test procedure

16 topics of next steps, so it might not be a substantive

17 discussion.

18 MR. deLASKI: Yeah, we'll have job topics and

19 other topics you've got the leads for.

20 So okay. So we'll stick with a two-hour total

21 block for that, then. All right. Thanks, everybody.

22 Productive day. Appreciate everyone's participation, and

23 I think we're adjourned.

24 (End of audio.)

25
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143 

1 CERTIFICATE OF REPORTER 

2 

3 I, Kylie S. Shepherd, Certified Shorthand 

4 Reporter, CERTIFY I was authorized to transcribe the 

5 proceedings, and the foregoing transcript is a true and 

6 accurate record. 

7 I FURTHER CERTIFY that I am not a relative, 

8 employee, attorney, or counsel of any of the parties, nor 

9 am I a relative or employee of any of the parties' 

10 attorney or counsel connected with the action, nor am I 

11 financially interested in the action. 

12 Dated this 18th day of June, 2015. 

13 

14 

15 

16 

17 

18 

19 

20 

21 

22 

23 

24 

25 

202-220-415 8 

8 . Kylie S. Shepherd 

Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 

www.hendersonlegalservices.com 
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A

a.m 116:19

ability 31:3,24

41:13

able 4:13 8:12

10:18 21:20

30:20 34:7

35:15 36:5

39:19 41:23

49:23 50:1

59:22 60:8

65:15 74:10

74:11 81:10

81:12 82:3

84:17 85:22

85:23 86:7

87:18,24

88:21 89:3

124:11

125:25

127:18 130:7

133:16

absent 16:8

abstention

33:6,11

AC 6:17 48:11

66:11,12

67:5,5 88:6

105:11

113:15,19,22

ACCA4:5

29:24 30:22

66:22 68:9

accept 62:15

acceptable

35:23

accepted 15:9

19:8 89:22

accepting

102:19

accommodate

102:20

accomplish

4:14 41:24

account 123:3

accumulate

51:25

accurate 143:6

ACEEE68:3

97:13

acknowledge

141:20

acronym 9:6

act 31:4

action 16:3

64:19,20

104:12,14

143:10,11

active 27:3

63:20

actively 94:8

activity 113:11

add 29:7 35:9

62:19 68:16

122:7 135:21

adding 92:20

addition 9:13

27:4 129:9

additional

14:9 43:4

47:16,16

58:16 91:13

125:8,9

138:10

address 8:24

8:24 78:9

89:3 133:17

134:6,10,20

135:16

addressed

21:7 64:3

131:22

addressing

8:20 92:19

adequately

142:4

adjourn 112:8

adjourned

142:23

adjusted 90:12

adjustments

4:19

administer

48:19,25

administrati...

49:19 104:11

administrative

106:7

adopt 17:22

adopted 21:22

advance 73:9

80:5 96:3

128:25

132:25

advanced

74:14

advancing

107:9

advantages

47:22 48:3

125:10

129:23

adverse 12:5

advice 4:10

42:8 94:6

advisory 1:1

32:20

advocate

50:24 63:19

advocates

12:23 13:5

13:16 23:3

30:12 63:9

65:20

affect 17:15

31:23 43:9

78:23

afternoon 4:7

110:24

116:12

agency 7:23

10:1 11:1,1,5

11:17,24,25

12:4,5 16:3

51:12 93:21

agency's 11:7

43:21

agenda 2:4,10

3:14,16 4:18

4:19 32:11

33:12 72:1,2

72:10 82:23

103:9 104:16

111:2 124:7

139:15,16,17

140:13

aggregated

136:22

aggressive

10:14 85:6

100:19

ago 11:9 50:10

52:17 120:19

125:17

agree 5:3,15

5:25 6:3

22:17 29:25

30:16 32:3

46:2 49:1

58:19 59:6

79:17 86:15

87:25 95:21

106:3 109:11

109:24

agreed 14:19

19:19,23

22:22 57:10

78:25 86:7

130:22 131:1

agreeing

95:15

agreement

3:19 10:21

11:20 32:18

32:19 42:9

53:12 54:24

54:25 79:14

81:20 83:4

agreements

11:13 41:5

agrees 95:5

AHAM11:11

11:11 58:23

65:14 108:13

AHAM's75:21

ahead 21:15

21:23 24:15

44:10 48:8

66:12 83:14

93:22 99:3,5

111:7 113:12

117:12

AHRI 4:2 16:18

27:4 29:11

44:16 66:16

66:21 67:2

69:24,24

89:15 92:15

95:12,20

air 4:3 8:4 9:4

11:8 12:8

15:20 19:16

19:19 20:4

37:3,16

38:15 44:14

66:16,17

68:13 71:1

77:2 101:20

106:8 112:19

116:20 117:2

118:6

air-cooled

20:4 48:10

alarm 40:7

albeit 86:25

Alex 3:1

all-day 7:12

19:13,13

Allied 82:21

allow 27:16
Meeting June 17, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com

Henderson Legal Services, Inc.

2

55:24 90:22

95:1 120:7

allowance

83:5

allowed 37:19

64:4 89:8

allows 16:8

85:18

alternate 6:23

6:25 29:1

59:10 89:17

112:25

AMCA36:22

37:3,25,25

amendment

133:23

America 9:4

amount 80:8

85:7 127:23

Amrane 1:4

29:11,11

30:16 67:2

69:23 92:15

95:20 101:14

108:20,22

analyses

20:21 71:2

analysis 14:3

14:8,10,11

14:17,20

20:20 29:19

30:21 31:4

32:5 58:4,10

58:12,21,22

67:11 70:25

71:4,21

72:14 73:2

75:2,10 83:6

87:5,7 91:4

91:13 95:16

98:9,10,11

104:4 109:6

109:21

110:10,12

126:23 136:1

137:4 138:6

analyzing 87:9

Andrew 1:10

2:11 12:7

13:8,24 28:9

29:12,20

42:1,9 47:17

49:11 53:22

60:15 61:1

76:25 101:5

106:6

Andrew's 24:3

answer 11:2

11:22 12:12

12:12 26:1

35:1 48:6

56:13 67:17

108:9 111:16

139:2

answered 25:9

answers

109:16

anticipate 59:5

92:9

anticipated

91:19 111:3

anybody3:11

6:13 33:5

94:22 114:23

116:24

121:17

127:21

139:20

anymore 26:15

48:24

anyway 96:15

96:17 127:25

apart 50:11

apologize

69:15 135:6

apparent 20:9

apparently

36:16

Appliance

2:11,19

130:16

applicant

121:5

applicants

122:10,16,19

122:20,22

application

36:18,21,25

37:10,13

45:18 56:20

applications

34:23 36:21

37:14 38:4,9

38:11 39:2

56:16 129:21

applies 49:6

apply 113:4

117:8

Appreciate

142:22

appreciated

66:3

approach 8:7

59:18

appropriate

93:2 97:11

appropriately

65:19 93:5

approve 3:16

4:23 6:9,12

13:22 33:4

73:13 74:8

83:22

approved 3:20

8:8 25:4 33:7

33:10 38:24

43:13 44:23

45:11 49:21

58:17 103:18

approving

13:18 110:16

April 7:18 8:9

101:22

area 34:10

46:9 131:8,9

areas 132:2

133:8

arguing 40:13

argument

56:23 89:23

ARI 32:17

ARM 89:17

Armstrong1:5

2:2,21,21 3:1

3:5,12 12:24

18:17 19:25

23:16,22

34:12 41:19

43:6 48:7,9

49:4 50:19

51:15 52:5

69:5 70:11

72:6,17

73:10 75:4

78:4 79:21

82:18,20,25

83:10,17,21

84:1,8 86:13

90:14,18

91:7,22 92:2

92:7 93:1,10

98:25 101:5

117:20 120:1

120:24

121:13

123:22 124:1

136:18

137:23

138:16 140:7

140:22 141:1

141:14,18

142:13

Ashley1:5

2:21 12:25

17:17 23:21

33:20,25

41:19 53:20

53:23 55:3,4

68:24 70:3

72:13,17

79:12,21

82:14 83:7

89:25 90:4

90:12 91:18

92:16 97:5

98:7 121:20

133:21

137:22

140:21

Ashley's18:15

51:9 73:4

ASHRAE

17:20,20

78:1 128:3

aside 110:24

asked 10:1

12:10 42:11

52:21 69:20

101:7 105:19

131:24

138:24

asking 17:25

21:13 32:6

40:3 42:5

44:13 83:21

94:14 121:2

aspect 61:22

ASRAC1:1

13:10,17,21

32:19 35:11

35:18 51:20

51:21,22

62:14,14

67:13 71:13

72:19,19

73:12 76:8

79:19 83:21

101:8,13

112:18,21

116:5 131:13
Meeting June 17, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com

Henderson Legal Services, Inc.

3

133:9,25

135:19

140:14

assemblies

47:18

assembly

47:20,22

48:1

assess 92:24

95:2 97:25

assessing

23:18 94:13

assigned

19:15

assignment

64:24

assignments

110:25 112:7

associated

49:5 127:4

128:9

Association

2:18,22 9:4,7

37:4

associations

66:23

assume 33:6

58:24 88:22

113:4 131:16

assumed 73:2

assuming 12:4

81:14 91:20

117:13

assumption

28:12 90:3

assumptions

28:11 71:5

assurances

57:24

atmosphere

53:9

attempt 51:12

attempting

16:5

attend 120:17

attended 7:2

attention 27:5

96:17

attorney 143:8

143:10

audience 6:21

29:7 140:18

audio 1:25

142:24

August 39:10

42:5,10,13

49:22 54:11

58:20 83:2

83:16,16,23

88:12 90:19

91:1 99:6

105:5 108:25

117:13,16,20

117:20,22

118:5,10,22

120:7

authority 11:8

11:12,15,23

13:9 43:21

authorized

143:4

available

68:14 70:20

71:8,20

123:24 124:4

139:12

average 25:17

avoid 80:20

aware 56:8

78:2,19

86:14

Awareness

2:12

awfully 14:21

B

B 1:6 37:19

90:22

back 7:18 11:1

11:17 18:24

35:14,20,24

40:10 41:15

42:8 49:15

49:22 53:19

55:13 60:16

62:19 81:17

81:21,22

83:3,12 84:4

84:12 93:24

99:18 106:9

106:10,15,18

106:25

110:19,20,24

113:19,19

114:16

116:25

117:15 124:4

125:8 129:25

130:21 131:2

142:5

back-and-fo...

86:20

background

19:6

backs 138:4

backwards

77:6

baked 98:18

balance 47:23

47:25 122:25

balanced 48:1

bang 125:3,11

137:21

based 65:1

68:12 93:19

104:4,8

105:12

107:20

109:12

baseline 24:22

basement

127:20

basic 63:11

basically

18:21 24:24

25:8 59:17

60:23 62:3

63:20 102:19

105:19 142:7

basis 14:13,15

21:12 65:7

74:8

becoming

64:16

began 4:8

beginning

84:21

begins 95:14

behalf 7:4,8

believe 66:2

70:5,15

78:21 82:22

beneficial 19:2

30:19 68:19

benefit 29:15

47:15 50:15

benefits 15:3,5

16:13 127:24

best 16:13

55:23 67:14

96:6 106:22

112:14

better 37:8,23

46:13 47:25

76:21 77:4

86:8 96:25

99:16 110:13

110:19

114:17 119:1

119:17

129:22

138:16

big 14:21,22

15:2 16:16

16:22 21:24

26:20,21

27:1 40:18

87:16,16

99:13 100:13

125:10

136:19

billion 15:4

bit 27:14 49:25

56:2 76:21

77:17 78:5

90:19,20

119:25

120:16 135:9

blade 47:21

129:6,7,13

blindsided

79:10

block 124:7

142:21

blower 38:25

blowers 64:2

117:18

board 137:6

Bob 27:15

body 74:4

bog 86:17

bound 10:7

bounds

130:13

Bouza 113:7

bow 93:19

box 8:6 31:21

brainstorm

128:8

break 4:6 50:6

66:15 101:6

113:10

bridge 48:9

briefing

134:14

bring 8:3

32:11 33:3

87:1 91:10

91:13 92:10

140:14,15
Meeting June 17, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com

Henderson Legal Services, Inc.

4

142:5

bringing 39:25

87:8

brings 81:13

broad 9:10,16

13:11 14:1

34:25

broader 4:9

45:3

broadly 9:1

11:13 12:21

brought 21:10

51:10 89:25

brush 14:1

buck 125:3

137:21

buckle 8:12

bucks 125:11

build 36:20

87:8 96:1

building 47:13

built 17:11

47:18 56:19

bullet 5:2,6

22:24 24:5

bump 90:20

bundle 87:11

burden 26:16

34:22

bus 82:18

business 3:7

6:14 31:10

43:9 112:1,3

120:16 123:8

123:20

126:15,15

businesses

30:24 31:7

31:18

buyers 15:3

buying56:15

56:21,21

buys 91:5

C

C 1:3 2:1

cabinets 58:6

Calabrese 1:6

Calabrese's

7:3

calendar

118:14

121:17 123:9

123:12,14

141:16,19

California 9:15

call 93:13

112:5 113:14

113:17

116:18,18

117:24 118:1

118:8 119:13

138:20 141:2

called 24:15

25:1

calling 40:1

122:12 133:5

calls 72:2,3

Canada 28:21

capabilities

126:24

capacity 27:25

68:21

capital 126:18

capture 20:21

20:23 31:9

90:16

care 106:6

109:17 112:1

careful 44:22

45:22

carefully 45:24

Carrier 27:15

carry 28:1

carrying 68:20

case 10:18

12:22 16:8

24:17,19

31:7 36:16

40:14,17

55:23 56:17

58:25 68:17

70:7 80:25

90:2 96:9

102:2 103:17

106:23

126:15,15

129:12,14

cases 8:6 20:1

67:8 95:18

103:22

139:16

Caskey 1:7

2:17,17 25:7

25:7 26:2,8

34:9,9 36:1,1

46:5,5 76:13

76:13 98:20

98:20,23

99:1 111:13

111:19,22

112:11 123:9

123:16

124:14,14

128:20

catch 111:5

catch-all 18:19

categories

35:4

categorize

131:12,15

132:4

categorized

131:20 132:7

category 62:6

84:25 94:15

134:9

caucuses

40:19,20

caucusing

60:16

cause 104:3

caveat 48:18

48:18

ceiling 79:5

centered 81:5

central 4:3

66:16,17

67:4,5 71:1

112:19

116:20 117:2

certain 17:10

25:16 49:2

49:17,18

59:12 77:6

102:9 136:25

certainly 57:20

57:25 74:9

75:24 76:9

76:13 82:6

127:7

certainty 15:15

16:6 108:16

CERTIFICATE

143:1

Certified 143:3

CERTIFY

143:4,7

certifying 34:2

chain 34:21

chair 130:23

challenge 23:6

29:2 33:22

48:21 55:13

135:24

challenged

33:18 67:9

67:12

challenges

5:19 6:1 28:6

49:4

challenging

16:17 29:14

29:20 32:7

89:12

chance 4:21

15:18 23:9

66:24 68:7

97:23,24

124:8 128:24

change 8:22

13:22 22:5,6

46:10,17

53:3 72:15

87:3 100:24

134:11

changes 16:1

16:17,24

25:11 28:10

28:23 30:20

70:4,13,14

73:3 74:1

76:3 78:1,22

78:22,23

84:15 86:16

87:16 92:24

95:23 100:15

100:23 102:1

134:23 135:1

characterized

20:19

charge 4:9

charged 20:6

Charles 1:13

1:19

Charlie 2:20

6:21 17:6,18

18:6 21:13

29:9,24

30:17,22

55:17 57:3

58:18 59:6

60:13 61:24

63:10 64:13

65:5 66:1

68:6,9 81:23

81:24 87:19

101:19 131:1

Charlie's 9:3

69:9
Meeting June 17, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com

Henderson Legal Services, Inc.

5

charter 81:17

82:4 122:8

122:24

chartered 7:17

83:19

chartering

81:15 88:4

check 53:9

57:9 124:8

checks 41:4

chiller 58:7,8

chillers 44:15

choices 47:15

119:4

choose 37:11

97:25

chooses

122:14

choosing 37:9

37:10

chosen 29:3

63:14

chunk 57:16

clarification

70:14 72:18

125:9

clarifications

59:15

clarifying

78:17

clarity 59:11

132:1

class 49:3

137:2,5

classes 58:5,7

60:23

clean 112:2,3

clear 19:6

23:20 43:15

50:17 59:12

59:23 62:10

69:16 102:10

130:5 131:7

clearer 59:21

clearly 7:22

62:22 73:6,8

96:5

Cleary 1:8

2:18,18

52:20 57:4

60:20 61:16

65:8,12

73:22 75:12

83:7 88:17

94:24 102:23

103:7,10,13

109:4 131:2

climate 104:12

104:13

107:10

close 32:11

41:7 65:7

73:7 91:19

91:23

closed 92:8

coal 15:1

Coast 116:13

coaster 52:11

Code 21:20

cognitive 82:9

coil 89:16

coils 25:23

collect 96:6

136:20 139:7

139:18

collected

139:11

collecting

132:25

collection

126:22

combination

16:11

combinations

58:9

combine 15:20

come 9:17

18:9 23:4

27:12 32:16

32:18,19

35:20 36:7

36:11 41:12

45:14 47:19

51:12,13,16

53:11 58:23

59:11,20,22

60:9,24

63:14 69:1,2

79:10 105:20

106:15

110:18,20

122:10 125:8

129:16

comes 40:10

comfortable

81:15

coming 17:8

22:11 28:24

32:22 44:8

49:22 50:2

60:5,6,16

79:2 100:25

105:2 117:14

117:24 132:8

133:22 139:9

commence

73:15

commence...

70:18,19

110:4

comment 12:4

12:5 14:7

16:15 17:2

32:12 43:17

67:20 80:18

80:18 84:12

92:3,8,16,16

93:2,4 99:11

100:16 111:9

129:2

commented

94:9 100:18

comments

17:5 33:3,3

58:11 65:25

75:22 80:23

88:21 90:23

91:19 92:10

92:13 93:19

96:24 128:20

129:25 135:8

140:17

commercial

3:23 6:17 8:4

8:5 19:16,16

19:18 20:4

33:13 38:8

44:13 48:10

56:6 61:25

62:2,6,8

63:17 66:11

66:11 68:13

68:13 77:1

101:20

105:11 113:9

commerciali...

105:7

commitment

111:5

committed

70:22 72:21

committee 1:1

2:25 4:1,8

7:10,11 8:8

9:1,11,20,21

13:10 14:2

19:9 29:12

32:20 34:15

34:19 35:5

35:10,16,23

37:22 38:16

39:10,21,22

42:8,12,14

43:18 47:3

48:23 49:12

50:4 54:9

56:1 63:7

65:5,6 66:3

66:20 67:3

67:16 70:24

71:2,19 78:9

81:12 83:15

83:16,18,23

86:14 88:4

91:2 93:9,15

93:25 94:7

112:7,18,19

112:21,21,22

113:5 115:20

115:20 116:2

117:1 120:18

120:20 121:2

122:14 123:4

130:18 131:8

132:19 138:3

138:11

140:20

committee's

29:8 39:23

49:16

committees

9:17 89:19

commodity-t...

56:22

common

16:10 86:10

commonly

28:15

commonsen...

25:13

communicate

53:16,19

communicat...

126:24

communicat...

125:16

companies 9:7

9:9 26:25

47:19 110:1

company 7:3
Meeting June 17, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com

Henderson Legal Services, Inc.

6

compared

57:5

complement

3:10

complete 21:9

66:1 82:3,13

104:4

completed

57:8 64:19

82:1

completely

14:12 22:18

56:9 79:4,9

80:7

completing

133:13

complex 40:21

57:21 61:6

85:19 134:13

134:15

complexity

39:20 50:3

67:10,11,19

133:19

compliance

8:3 10:3,6,7

10:12 15:11

15:24 18:25

24:13,14,18

28:11 94:12

107:16,21

108:5

compliancy

18:18 23:18

compliant

39:19

complicated

37:20 45:10

51:4 89:15

90:9 109:19

136:11

comply 45:16

45:19,23

108:11

component

47:1,6,8,9,11

50:13

components

25:24 47:4

47:21 48:2

51:2

compressor

127:4

compromise

89:12

computer

89:18

concept 23:2

37:15

concepts

127:25

concern 4:22

23:3 39:21

39:23 43:7

43:23

concerned

76:24 109:5

110:2

concerning

24:11 109:9

concerns 8:20

8:24,25

21:17 25:8

75:20 127:6

concise 59:23

concluded

36:8

conclusion

56:14

conclusions

87:5

concur 69:9

concurrent

80:19

condition

17:13

conditioner

11:9 37:16

conditioners

4:3 8:4 15:21

19:16 20:5

66:17,17

71:1 112:20

117:2

conditioning

9:4 12:8 77:2

101:20

116:21 118:6

conditions

78:13

configuration

34:20

confines

101:12

confirm 70:3

142:2

confirming

100:2

conflict 107:10

confused 5:10

confusion

23:24 133:20

congratulate

32:23

congress

15:10

connect 76:20

connected

73:23 132:13

143:10

connection

28:2

consensus

8:13 12:20

12:21 19:14

29:13 36:8

42:13 51:1,3

52:2 53:25

67:14,22

81:12

consequence

139:9

conservation

2:16 13:7

consider 10:7

13:19 14:8

21:9 31:10

33:7 35:13

35:17,18

42:6 45:7

48:12 52:16

55:21 67:3

68:23 78:20

88:16 90:25

91:2 101:8,9

101:13 116:3

116:20 122:6

126:9 128:2

141:18

considerable

110:8

considerably

61:5

consideration

3:22 29:8

60:10 67:16

85:18 126:2

considered

31:17 34:17

35:4,6 45:7

56:12,21

92:9 121:5

considering

13:8,18,23

62:7 70:13

78:8

consistent

74:2,3 80:14

135:11

constrained

28:6

constraints

12:18 27:22

111:7

constructed

45:24

constructive

16:23

consultant

30:18

consultants

14:5 30:13

68:14 71:8

consultation

93:3 137:14

consumer

126:1 138:20

consumers

20:22

consumption

20:14,18

22:11 44:23

45:5 78:23

125:13

container

45:14

containing

13:6

context 12:11

14:24,25

88:25 130:11

continue 4:7

4:14 27:17

81:9 87:13

121:4 135:15

contractor

31:21

contractors

9:4,7 31:16

31:18,24

66:23

control 125:15

125:19

126:24 127:1

129:8

controller

129:13

controlling

125:16

controls 37:4
Meeting June 17, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com

Henderson Legal Services, Inc.

7

127:5,10

controversial

134:21

conversation

19:12 108:13

119:2 136:23

conversations

4:7 104:9

conversions

98:11

cooking 114:8

coolant 68:13

cooled 58:5

cooling 127:3

cooperated

110:9

cooperation

8:17 57:7

cooperative

57:15

cooperatively

53:5

cope 64:17

correct 18:15

20:17 94:22

correction 5:7

correctly

103:20 134:2

cost 47:9

costs 126:1

Council 2:16

counsel 11:5

59:8 62:11

138:3 143:8

143:10

country

139:24

couple 6:8

7:14,21 8:14

14:10 19:10

27:8 50:10

52:17 55:25

60:21 83:5

86:13 87:17

93:17 112:2

116:16

120:19 131:3

140:10

142:10

course 7:2

9:11,14 67:3

93:6

court 67:9,12

cover 33:21

61:21 124:25

coverage

61:17 62:2,8

covered 13:4

13:14 44:17

44:25 45:5,8

45:9 56:7,22

57:1 61:19

61:23 65:19

76:7 106:15

create 66:16

99:4

created 21:7

creates 5:16

5:19 6:1 16:9

creating 77:4

credit 8:11

crew 92:6

critical 139:11

cross-cutting

4:9 111:1

cross-section

86:2

crossovers

63:16

crosswalk

134:9

crunchers

140:2

curb 28:2

curious 26:17

current 3:18

6:16 10:19

19:22,24

20:11 72:16

92:17 139:2

currently

23:25 72:12

curve 43:5,5

cycle 17:11,11

18:5

cycles 16:9

17:15 127:15

139:19

Cymbalsky 1:9

6:19 82:19

92:1 96:19

98:7,15,22

100:16

101:17

102:22,25

103:6,9,11

104:8 106:3

106:21 107:3

107:13,15,20

107:24 108:4

108:10 109:2

111:13

112:14 113:6

113:10 114:7

115:5,7,11

115:13,22,25

116:4,7,11

116:14 118:6

118:22

121:19,24

122:5,19

123:2,6,25

124:2 130:2

D

D 2:1

D.C 118:5

Daikin 7:3

data 36:21,22

37:2 44:19

58:23 65:15

71:6 87:1,8

90:23 91:13

96:6 100:5

106:5,11

132:21,22,24

133:3,5,12

134:7 135:23

135:24 136:3

136:9,15,19

136:22,25

138:16,18,20

138:21 139:1

139:3,6,10

139:12

date 10:3,3,6

15:11,24

18:5 22:1

24:18 34:5,7

39:7 90:20

91:17 94:13

95:1 104:24

104:24 105:2

106:18,19

107:21 108:5

109:13

123:13

Dated 143:12

dates 8:3 10:8

10:12 14:16

15:20 17:8,8

17:14 18:9

19:16 24:13

24:14 28:11

29:2 66:5

107:16

141:13

Dave 1:22 7:3

9:14 69:5,7,8

69:16 70:8

77:20 78:5

82:21 85:4

102:25 103:2

Dave's 3:2

107:11

David 1:6,14

3:3 4:24 5:6

13:13 33:6

116:14,14,25

124:17

David's 5:21

5:23

day 34:13 62:3

62:4 73:7

105:9 106:7

106:8 127:2

127:10,12,13

127:17

142:22

143:12

days 55:24

73:14 88:9

91:3,9,11,25

92:1,11,22

deadline 39:5

39:9 54:15

54:16,18

59:1,4 81:19

82:22 87:25

90:8 91:15

93:23 97:8

98:6 99:8

103:19,24

104:2 105:24

106:2 108:25

deadlines 82:2

82:6,7 104:7

deadlock

52:23

deal 29:22

48:17 49:11

117:24 118:1

141:23

dealing 32:21

77:6 124:15

deals 19:18

dealt 20:7

133:24

Deborah 1:20

2:22 13:13
Meeting June 17, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com

Henderson Legal Services, Inc.

8

26:9 32:13

37:21 39:4

41:8 122:17

141:10

Deborah's

40:2

decades 42:25

December

84:7 91:16

91:17 98:6

99:8 101:11

101:15,16

104:2 107:4

121:19

122:12

decide 61:21

99:4 131:13

135:18

decided 14:18

40:6,13

42:13 65:20

132:15

decision 59:23

63:3 65:6

104:15

decisions 39:8

40:15 41:14

59:21 83:13

88:9

declined 78:9

dedicated

134:17

deems 62:16

deeply 99:19

defend 43:19

defense 78:4

defer 137:18

define 5:12

36:5 46:23

55:10,10

58:6 128:7

defined 26:5

31:8 61:2

126:22

defining 5:17

5:19 6:1

definite 64:19

definitely

131:7 137:7

definition

27:13,16

31:11 57:10

77:14 126:20

126:20 129:8

definitions

57:19 59:12

deLaski 1:10

2:4,11,24 3:6

3:13 5:6,14

5:18,21,24

6:5,24 7:7

12:10,20

13:25 17:2

17:16 18:11

19:5 20:1,16

22:3,5,15

23:21 24:4

24:10 26:19

26:25 28:7

28:12,19

29:5 32:10

33:2,10 39:9

39:12 42:8

43:5,12

44:20 46:3

46:21 51:9

53:16 54:4,8

54:15,18,20

55:5,8 56:25

60:12 65:1

65:23 66:9

68:1 69:1,7

69:16,19

71:25 72:5,7

72:23,25

73:6,18

80:13 82:14

83:15,20,24

84:3 85:3

90:11,16

91:6,25 93:6

93:11 97:12

98:13 99:17

102:16 103:2

103:5 104:20

106:13 108:1

108:8,17,21

108:23 109:3

109:23 110:5

110:23

111:18,21,24

112:16 113:1

113:3,8,12

113:21,25

114:2,6,9,13

114:21,25

115:9,12,15

115:19,24

116:1,10,12

116:18,23

117:7,12,17

117:21 118:8

118:11,13,18

118:21 119:1

119:8,11,16

119:19,23

120:3,5,10

120:14,16

121:14,23

122:1,24

123:5,7,15

123:19 124:6

128:19,22

129:24 130:9

130:25

137:13

138:15 140:8

140:24

141:25

142:18

delay 43:21

102:20

demanding

24:20

demonstrated

53:24

demonstrati...

9:16 65:15

department

9:22 13:24

14:4,4 32:14

32:24 34:2

61:20 74:15

76:3 79:8

81:2 88:15

88:21,25

89:6 91:10

120:18 121:2

133:1,2

135:25

department's

14:5 71:17

72:21 78:12

83:10 105:23

depend 16:2

depending

34:18,24

47:12 51:21

93:3

depends

100:15

122:10 142:9

describe 41:1

66:24

described

18:13 22:24

23:19 24:13

27:11 39:17

65:6

describing

61:2

design 10:24

10:25 16:9

25:19,19

47:15 84:20

90:3

designed 46:7

56:19

designee

113:4 117:1

designees

112:18

designer

50:14

designs 37:6

desire 8:2,6

15:19

desires 60:7

detailed 36:6

51:11

details 23:1

45:21 52:6

79:20

determine

17:22 79:17

determined

13:5

develop 60:21

developed

16:18,19

developing

27:16

development

16:21

device 126:10

126:11,12,25

devices

125:16

126:23

devil's 50:24

dialogue 86:19

87:19,20

137:12

Diane 1:15

2:13 6:25

13:15 15:17

22:12 25:9

27:20 28:19

32:2 33:15

35:19 36:14
Meeting June 17, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com

Henderson Legal Services, Inc.

9

37:21 39:17

42:22 44:1

46:16,22

49:15 50:9

53:20 55:2

56:5 60:14

63:4 73:1

76:6 89:13

96:2 100:3

106:17 107:8

114:25

124:18

129:19

130:25

135:21

Diane's 6:24

20:17 26:22

28:13

dictate 16:23

differences

89:5 127:16

different 12:14

22:8,9 30:9

33:21 35:3

38:3 41:20

46:6,18 52:3

55:19 56:20

58:9 60:3,6,7

60:7,19 61:9

62:5,23 63:5

63:6 75:17

75:19 76:5

82:24 94:23

123:17

129:20 131:6

131:11 141:6

differently

54:6

difficult 5:12

37:15 64:9

73:25 74:8

76:11 82:12

119:3 127:8

136:7 142:9

difficulty 65:9

digest 135:9

dilemmas

20:23

direct 11:7,23

12:1,17 13:9

direction

46:15 50:5,6

76:19 99:2

directly 122:2

122:2

dirty 106:9

disagree 136:2

disagreeme...

93:21

disappears

37:17

discipline 8:17

disciplined

8:12

discuss 53:18

60:25 61:7

74:5 80:2,3

80:10 83:6

92:12,13

99:6,8 141:6

142:4

discussed

45:11,16

61:25 62:10

75:13 76:10

85:22,24

99:24 125:7

131:18

discussing

89:4 97:5

99:9 116:17

discussion

27:21 34:14

35:5,21 39:2

49:25 52:16

58:1 64:14

70:9 71:23

73:8 75:1

78:14 85:10

87:7 93:22

109:4 110:5

110:15

124:15,23

129:20

130:10 131:7

131:12

138:23

140:11 141:5

141:9 142:17

discussions

4:15 39:25

49:7 59:8

71:4,22

79:13 81:4,8

87:12 88:1

89:1 95:3

99:19 110:4

124:23

135:12

137:11,25

138:9

disrupt 46:17

distinction

103:15,16

distribute

112:15

distributed

3:21 7:10

distribution

125:21,24

126:4

distributors

66:22

divisions

59:18

docket 43:14

111:15

document

137:18

DOE 2:21 6:19

7:17,21 10:4

11:14 12:25

13:18 14:21

17:9,15,21

17:21 18:7

20:21 21:8

29:17 30:13

32:17 41:22

52:17 57:23

59:9 60:4

61:16,24

62:7,11,17

65:16 67:8

68:21 70:11

70:13,15,17

70:22,25

71:8 72:2

74:4 77:8,23

78:8 80:11

86:25 87:2,3

92:18 96:19

101:17 102:7

103:22 113:6

113:7 119:23

128:11,13

130:11 132:1

133:7,15

134:1,19

DOE's 13:8

20:20 58:4

59:9 70:1,4

71:10 98:18

101:11 102:5

102:10

104:17 130:3

dog 99:13

doing 16:13,22

19:9 32:6

33:1 46:18

60:1,16

94:11 96:14

99:10 102:3

102:13

107:24

108:15

113:16

122:11,21

131:4 134:1

136:15

139:25

dominating

64:12

door 11:3

double 85:7

101:25 102:6

doubling

42:18

doubt 51:15

downstream

43:10

draft 71:2

137:14

drag 43:24

85:8

draw 27:5

34:18

drawback 31:2

drawing 34:20

88:14

drawn 100:1

drive 139:2

drivers 137:4

drives 16:18

25:10,10

driving 115:5

dual-duct 27:6

28:5

duct 28:3

due 18:1,2,8

duration 36:3

duty 127:15

dynamic 60:19

dynamics

63:25

E

E 1:3,3,20 2:1

2:1

e-mail 141:11

eagerness
Meeting June 17, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com

Henderson Legal Services, Inc.

10

118:5

earlier 3:19

19:1 24:13

24:16 28:9

56:12 75:9

76:25 96:24

96:25 97:7,8

99:2,15

107:16 109:7

119:2

early 14:8

21:16,19

105:5 107:17

108:25

116:12 133:2

easier 125:17

136:9 141:16

East 116:13

eastern 116:19

120:8

Eckman 1:11

2:15,15 12:7

12:15 91:18

91:23 92:5

114:11,17

115:1 119:10

119:13 129:2

138:22

economic

16:12

edit 5:7,18,22

5:23 13:22

education

126:14 134:2

EER 10:19

effect 10:13

16:1 108:2

126:6

effective 10:3

15:20 19:20

66:13,13

effectively

9:25 74:10

effectiveness

4:11 23:5

efficiencies

25:12

efficiency 5:3

5:3,4,12,15

5:24,25 6:3

9:8 12:23

13:5,16 15:7

19:20 20:2

24:23 25:2

25:20,23

32:25 37:10

37:11,12

47:6,8 59:17

70:10 87:9

125:4,10,19

126:5,11

127:9 128:10

134:22 137:2

137:6

efficient 21:1

47:23

effort 34:6

64:10 134:17

eight 18:3

115:13

either 51:18

54:12 103:4

106:14

108:12 124:5

electric 63:13

element 21:24

65:22

elements 7:13

11:19 71:6

95:15 136:25

139:10

elephant 64:1

64:16

elephant-in-t...

57:14

eliminated

37:6 39:18

elongate

101:18

103:15

eloquently

101:19

embedded

48:10,15,15

employee

143:8,9

employees

31:8

encompass

87:15

encourage

54:14,16

encouraging

60:5,11

end-of-the-y...

104:2 108:25

ended 19:7,9

ends 35:19

62:3 121:9

energy 2:23

7:23 13:7

14:19 15:1

16:12 20:2

20:13,13,16

20:18 21:24

22:11,18

25:15 32:25

38:21 44:23

45:5 59:17

63:9,18

65:13,21

70:10 75:17

75:25 125:13

125:24 126:1

126:5,17

127:8 128:9

134:12,22

enforcement

30:8,8 78:21

engage 136:23

engineering

87:9

enormous

15:4,6 40:9

ensure 134:1

entail 93:12

entertain

42:11,14

entities 136:8

entity 31:20

environmental

9:9

EPA 28:22

equal 14:25

15:1 121:6

equipment

15:4 22:7,19

24:25 25:1,2

26:12 27:22

28:1,4,5 34:2

36:23 38:15

38:25 44:4

45:2,3,4

48:11,14,16

49:6 60:15

equivocally

34:21

essentially

26:5 92:13

94:15,18

establish 99:4

established

29:17 58:5

establishing

67:4

Europe 3:7

28:21

evaluate 96:10

evaporator

50:12

evening 111:5

everybody

3:12 5:21

8:11 32:23

110:21

114:19

123:12 139:6

142:21

everybody's

86:11

everyone's

54:24 131:19

142:15,22

evidence

40:25

evidenced

53:7

evolution

125:14

exact 18:8

exactly 44:2

64:15 75:14

example 89:7

105:13 126:4

132:18

133:11

134:24

excellent

79:19

exchange

77:25 79:13

79:15

exchanged

33:18

exclude 62:25

65:20

excluded

38:25 44:13

exclusion

48:18

exclusions

49:10

exclusive

56:15

excuse 7:7

41:9

executive

31:14

exempt 45:4

exempted 27:9
Meeting June 17, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com

Henderson Legal Services, Inc.

11

exercise 86:8

86:9

exist 25:13

26:15

existing 17:12

126:9

exists 82:7

expansive

139:15

expect 36:9

37:6 42:19

74:3,10

132:11 135:8

141:4 142:14

expectation

11:24

expected

110:18

expecting

140:9

expense 47:16

64:10

expensive

125:23

experience

68:12 89:8

95:18 110:11

expert 20:17

97:14,15

explain 101:15

explained 11:6

explanation

86:20

explicitly 27:9

27:10

explore 10:19

exposure

59:19

express 22:23

117:4

extend 34:7

36:3 40:8,24

52:22 53:15

55:22 59:3

62:1 102:14

extended 34:6

52:4 54:2

extending

35:13,17

53:14 55:24

62:8

extension

42:11,15

92:10

extensions

93:7

extensive

94:11

extent 77:6,24

138:17

external

100:24

extra 66:2

95:13 108:7

extreme 26:16

extremely

30:19,21

F

F 1:7

fabulous

141:17

FACA122:14

face 20:22

62:24

face-to-face

41:13 98:2

105:16 112:9

113:20

facilitator

46:10

facilitators

46:9 66:10

facing 119:3

129:4 132:2

fact 17:7 46:14

61:4 74:1

75:21

factions 63:6

63:11

factor 5:5,11

5:13,17,19

6:1

factors 16:11

59:19,19

fail 126:7,8

fails 126:12,16

fair 79:4,7

fairly 13:3 36:6

50:25 82:6

faith 104:18

fall 128:11

falls 6:16

familiar 43:2

43:11 125:21

fan 20:13,16

20:19 21:24

22:11,18,20

34:15,16,16

34:25 36:5

36:15,17,23

37:1,6,8,10

37:11,12,23

38:1,25

44:25 45:5,6

45:12,12,13

45:17,18

47:1,5,18,21

47:21,23

48:4 50:12

50:23 117:18

118:3 129:12

fan's 23:6

fans 3:23

20:14,19

22:11 33:13

34:23 35:3,4

36:20 38:3,6

38:6,12,14

41:23,23

44:23 45:14

45:15,15,22

48:10,13,15

48:19 52:7

56:6 64:2

117:25 118:2

119:2,4

124:25,25

127:4 129:3

129:18

far 38:21 53:4

56:14 71:24

75:16 112:13

124:17 125:6

128:4 129:15

fast 110:19

fast-track

134:19

federal 21:20

66:10

feedback 3:4

5:1 14:5,6,9

78:7 88:18

137:10

feel 51:22 64:1

67:6,9,15,18

88:20 97:8

142:3

feet 85:8

felt 22:16

37:23 89:23

134:16

FEMALE7:6

72:4 114:5

114:18

116:22

117:16,18

118:10,20,23

119:7,14

120:4,9,12

120:15

121:11 122:3

123:17

field 109:15

fifth 27:6

fight 99:13

figure 21:5

36:5 44:18

48:19 115:4

final 10:5,23

11:7,23 12:1

12:2,6,17

13:9 14:17

18:2,2,3,4,23

19:12,12

33:2 41:3

56:25 72:9

74:16 80:5

81:2,6 87:22

89:7 91:17

94:10,16

95:5,7 96:11

96:22 97:1

106:18 109:1

110:13

finalize 62:19

80:8 83:14

finalized 7:12

74:22,25

75:6,8,11,15

75:19 133:23

financially

143:11

find 2:8 33:8

43:16 48:25

73:24 74:7

finds 19:3

fine 80:3,11

106:5 107:3

116:23

117:10

finish 15:17

58:20,25

65:25 72:7

107:15,17

113:8

finished 69:17

108:15

first 3:15 6:13

7:16 14:2
Meeting June 17, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com

Henderson Legal Services, Inc.

12

20:7 30:5,7

39:13,13

42:19 54:18

67:7 71:13

73:15 76:9

77:1 80:3

83:13,23

91:24 92:6

93:16 97:17

97:20 98:2

101:22 104:9

105:4 112:3

113:25

124:13,21

128:16

131:23 133:3

140:10

fit 39:14 46:13

104:13

five 18:22,24

58:5 65:23

97:10 107:17

130:21 131:3

five-year 108:6

108:16

136:13

fix 21:6

fixed 28:3

flag 94:2

flex 10:3

flexibility 9:23

11:4,7,15,18

12:16 31:4

flight 111:5

fluid 129:14

flux 84:14

fly 30:20

focus 8:13

61:11

focused 8:18

29:21

folks 23:9 31:7

50:2 66:10

68:19 72:1

105:18

110:24 124:8

142:2

follow 134:1

follow-on

84:23

following

119:16

121:16 132:3

133:6

forecast 139:6

foregoing

143:5

forever 52:8

forgetting 3:11

forgotten

115:10

form 5:4,5,11

5:12,17,19

6:1 83:15,16

83:17 97:22

108:24

113:15,22

formal 54:10

formed 4:2,13

8:9 93:13,14

104:22

112:19

115:21

forming 9:17

71:19 76:8

formula 56:18

forum 79:19

92:13 101:18

102:6 103:14

forward 9:19

11:25 12:6

17:9 30:25

36:9,10 39:2

41:22 43:16

51:2,12

53:10,13

56:1,1 64:17

65:3 76:14

81:8 83:14

87:21,22

109:6 128:22

129:25

found 65:3

four 10:1 11:2

11:19 24:18

35:15 40:19

59:2 66:1

83:8 101:1

four-month

59:4

fourth 4:25

35:19

frame 7:19

28:17 82:17

104:13

free 53:17 93:6

97:8

freezer 58:8

frequency

25:10

frequently

93:8

Friday 116:7

Fried 1:12

front 2:6 18:21

69:13 84:11

85:23 104:11

129:17

frozen 50:11

fulfilling 4:9

full 3:10 17:23

31:4 67:16

85:18 98:19

99:22 100:9

118:3 121:5

function 62:18

functional

64:23

functioning

126:9

fundamental

5:10 43:22

fundamentally

87:7

furnace 6:18

11:9 77:2

furnaces 8:5

15:20 19:17

19:19,22

66:12 68:13

further 10:14

35:17 90:20

110:5,15

140:12 143:7

future 15:15

30:15 31:12

71:24 77:12

G

G 2:1

gains 25:20

gap 48:9

GE 2:14 11:11

Geez 7:20

general 11:5

12:9 37:2

100:24 109:5

133:15

generalizable

12:12

generate

90:22

generation

62:4,4

genuine 52:13

geography

123:1,2

getting 3:4

4:25 16:11

25:21 30:25

34:13 39:24

40:2 45:20

54:24 63:1

67:22 71:19

73:12,13

80:19 81:5

83:2 94:9

99:6 102:3

110:13

121:11

125:22

127:12

128:15

134:14

135:23

142:15

gist 106:2

give 12:15

13:18 15:17

17:16 23:9

28:19 36:6

36:22 37:2

43:14 55:15

66:24 67:16

68:7 79:23

81:16,18

84:16 86:1

88:12,14

90:21 91:4

92:21 104:17

107:6 110:19

121:6 124:11

136:8,9,9

139:20 142:4

given 7:23,24

8:5 12:14

35:25 67:10

67:18,18

68:10 100:19

111:24 119:1

119:2 137:17

gives 78:11

108:10 122:8

123:19

giving 13:23

14:4 32:8

51:23 68:19

88:5 90:8

94:6,19

glad 110:9
Meeting June 17, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com

Henderson Legal Services, Inc.

13

135:10

glance 6:8

go 21:19 28:15

41:15 45:15

46:4 48:8

51:2 52:12

58:22 62:19

64:4,17

68:11 71:6,9

73:11 77:5

77:14 78:6

81:4 83:13

89:6 93:14

99:3,5

103:25 106:9

106:10 113:9

113:12

114:13 126:6

139:7

goal 134:4

goal's 54:24

goals 104:12

goes 38:3,21

62:3,5

100:25

122:14

127:21

139:14

going 3:17

7:21 9:6 18:9

18:15 20:10

22:6,8,12,16

25:14 27:13

28:13,20

30:14 37:18

37:18 39:7

40:16 42:6

42:10 43:25

44:17 45:8,9

45:15 46:17

46:23 48:16

48:17,21

49:8 51:13

51:15,17

53:12,13

54:24 55:22

57:6 59:23

62:22 66:5,7

66:8 75:7

77:9 79:9,10

80:15,18

81:3,7,10,11

81:17 82:9

83:21 85:14

86:15 89:1,6

92:2 93:4

98:9,16,17

98:17 99:1,4

99:20 100:13

102:18 104:3

104:3,13

108:8 109:7

109:12,25

110:17

112:22

113:10,14

114:18 115:7

117:23

119:14 120:2

120:21

123:23

124:10 126:9

127:25

131:16

134:16

135:19

136:14 137:5

137:14

138:10 139:3

139:20 141:2

142:4,7

good 15:10

30:11 31:25

32:8,22 33:1

33:6,8,10

34:1 35:14

35:24 40:22

56:10 58:1

59:11 67:19

71:13 73:14

78:12 84:19

88:19 89:12

89:23 95:7

99:17 104:18

105:8 109:16

113:20

118:20 119:8

122:20,21,22

123:22,24

124:5 125:3

126:4 129:22

132:17

Goodman 7:3

gosh 97:2

gotten 27:22

35:22 36:4

government

9:14

government's

72:11

granola 140:2

granular

132:15

grasp 50:1

great 3:6 50:8

55:22 76:18

77:11 84:14

124:14 140:7

greater 48:11

Greg 32:3

grew 16:17,24

ground 105:9

groundwork

14:14

group 3:20,21

3:24,25 4:1,2

6:18,18,22

7:2,5,17 8:8

8:11,15,17

13:17,21

15:18,21

19:7 20:11

22:12,22,23

22:25 23:7

25:5 27:5

29:6,15,17

30:2,5,7,9,10

30:19 31:22

33:14,24

35:12,14

36:19,20

40:8,10,18

41:24 43:6

46:25 48:12

48:19 49:1

50:5 51:10

53:19,21

55:5 58:16

60:20,25

61:15 62:17

63:16,18,21

64:5,11,24

66:15,16,19

67:4,13

69:21 74:6

75:5 76:8,15

79:1 80:10

80:12,15,19

80:21 81:15

81:25 85:1

86:16 88:4

89:9,22

91:12 92:11

93:2,13,14

93:22 94:2,5

95:5 97:22

99:5,5,10

101:7,22

102:12

104:21

106:17

108:24

110:16

113:11,15,19

113:22

115:20

116:20 117:1

117:3,25

118:2,3

121:15

124:15

126:13

128:15,25

130:13

132:19 135:7

135:11,15

136:10

138:23 141:5

142:6

group's 57:25

groups 3:18

6:16 11:14

30:15 32:25

33:22 36:17

55:20 59:12

59:16 60:6

60:15,17,18

60:22 61:3

61:11 63:5

63:11,14,19

63:20 68:18

68:21 102:9

103:24 112:6

117:14 122:8

140:10 142:3

groups' 140:4

guess 34:8

38:12 46:5

47:12 49:24

53:6 54:10

57:5 68:16

73:22 84:9

84:11 94:25

96:23 99:17

103:7 130:2

131:15

139:12

guessing

134:15

guide 97:15
Meeting June 17, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com

Henderson Legal Services, Inc.

14

guys 79:2,25

82:16 97:6

97:11 119:24

120:23

128:25

138:11 141:3

141:15

H

half 39:3 91:7

97:10 106:8

142:8,11

hallway

127:16

hand 66:13

handful 80:3

handle 36:3

handled 64:8

handler 44:14

handout

111:17

hang 138:13

happen 16:4

28:22 37:8

43:25 73:9

73:17 80:16

98:21 102:12

111:9

happened

29:22 53:4

109:21

happening

73:14 96:7

109:10

happens 90:2

93:8

happy 67:17

87:3 113:3

117:5 136:23

137:8

hard 29:13

39:8 41:14

41:17 59:4

79:1 88:8

101:11,15

102:11

127:23 136:5

HARDI 66:22

69:4,19

HARDI's 68:7

Hardy 4:4

harm 106:4,12

Harris 3:8

121:1

hate 86:22

head 51:13,16

73:4 81:9

healthy 80:22

81:1

hear 3:4,5

17:17 22:12

40:25 67:20

67:21 69:16

88:17 95:11

95:18 109:3

110:6

heard 11:17

15:19 55:19

56:3 57:5

72:13 74:23

75:9 89:23

90:1 93:11

101:10

hearing 4:20

80:14 82:5

hearkening

84:12

heat 20:5 25:3

66:18 88:6

100:10 105:7

112:20

heating 25:4

held 42:23

help 2:9 28:13

29:1 43:14

46:11,15,24

49:12 50:5,6

55:10 88:22

128:6 137:12

137:12

139:25

helped 30:19

66:12 132:4

helpful 30:21

32:22 68:15

88:20 89:1

133:17 135:6

136:16

helps 139:25

hesitant 40:8

51:23

hesitate 39:12

hesitating

84:21

hesitation

84:10

hey 45:12

HFCs 28:18,20

Hi 3:3 26:9

high 17:5

126:11

high-level 17:2

higher 10:8

37:11

history 67:12

67:18,23

68:10

hold 102:2

holding 31:21

home 2:18

63:12,15

Hon 1:13 2:20

2:20 17:6,6

18:6,6 22:1,4

55:17,17

56:8,11 59:6

59:6 61:24

61:24 63:10

63:10 64:13

64:13,15

65:11 66:4

81:24,24

hook 54:11

hope 30:10

37:7 41:23

46:8 48:2

54:20 58:25

65:21 142:8

hopeful 43:13

50:3 86:19

hopefully 4:12

32:10 34:6

39:1 43:12

43:14 53:3,5

54:21 80:23

83:22 95:5

97:23 128:17

132:1 141:2

hopes 34:20

hoping 71:22

87:23 116:4

horsepower

50:18

host 16:3

hour 105:10

118:25 142:8

142:11

hours 115:2

118:25 120:7

house 59:8,9

housing 129:9

huge 57:16

135:24

Huh-uh 91:6

Hungerford

1:14 3:2,3,3

4:24 5:9,16

5:20 6:2 9:15

33:8 116:15

116:16 117:5

117:10

124:17

HVAC 38:10

38:15,24

44:3,13 45:2

45:4,22

60:15 125:1

126:12,16

hybrid 58:7

60:22

I

ice 57:12,18

57:19,19

61:5,13 62:1

62:2,3,4,8

64:5

idea 5:10

21:18 34:19

71:13 73:19

73:23 109:18

134:19

ideas 128:14

identified 7:25

identify 44:18

88:23 132:19

133:2,16

137:1

identifying

132:10

133:12

IEER 10:21,24

16:19 20:12

20:20 22:7

22:18,20

25:3 45:5

imagine 81:18

immediate

36:1 84:22

immediately

84:22 133:22

133:22

impact 26:14

30:24 70:5

75:16,24

81:3 85:11

86:3 100:20

100:22

109:14,19

134:21 137:4
Meeting June 17, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com

Henderson Legal Services, Inc.

15

impacted

110:1

impacting

81:11 84:19

impacts 31:12

31:13 81:14

85:12 128:9

134:11

impending

110:3

impetus 43:15

implement

11:25 78:24

implementat...

18:19

importance

67:22 96:18

important 7:16

9:20 13:9,19

21:19 27:12

38:20 43:8

45:10 65:2

90:8 96:5,21

100:21 134:7

135:2

impose 104:25

imposed 82:2

imposing

103:21

impression

135:22

impressive

115:8

improve 4:11

improvement

15:13,14

16:6 19:21

24:23 25:2

25:14 74:2

74:13 131:23

132:7 133:6

improving

15:7 25:23

inaudible

23:12 49:3

69:14 78:2,3

79:18 85:16

111:20,23,23

115:18

117:19 120:4

122:3 140:12

140:12

inclination

40:17

inclined 40:23

40:24

include 10:17

10:22,24

22:17

included 9:2,8

20:20 44:4,5

57:12 61:17

includes 25:3

25:9 126:23

127:1,2,3

129:8

including 13:4

60:3 78:7

incorporated

14:5,6

134:25

increase 47:7

increasing

10:20

incredibly

134:13

independent

63:16 89:16

independently

56:13

indicated

65:16 68:4

indicates

74:16

indicating 3:9

indication

48:23 78:12

individual 47:4

126:23 136:8

individually

61:21

industrial 3:23

33:13 38:7

62:5

industry 8:2

27:4 28:25

38:22 77:9

77:13,22

134:24

industry's

68:22

infer 100:14

inference 73:7

inferring 79:12

influence 81:7

85:15 126:14

influx 121:1

inform 95:10

95:16

informal 32:15

106:17

information

33:18 34:3

71:25 72:8

87:4 133:1,7

136:4 138:10

141:20

initial 7:20

10:13 15:9

24:16 59:3

93:16 94:25

104:9 106:4

106:11

108:24

initially 18:13

81:16 123:13

initiate 21:8

initiating

93:12

input 41:11,15

insist 64:3

installers 9:3

instruction

94:19

instrumental

32:8

intact 85:14

integrated

129:5

intend 104:19

intent 27:9

54:13 70:1

intention

41:22

interaction

30:11 77:5,9

77:18 79:9

interactive

80:24

interest 13:11

13:12 52:13

63:23,24

108:17 117:4

121:2,12

126:3 128:3

131:16

interested

10:18 13:2

31:22 49:16

70:20 112:12

143:11

interesting

36:15 38:5

59:8

Interests

123:5

interim 83:12

interlocking

76:11

internally 39:5

137:24

interpret 18:4

interpreted

44:3

interpreting

63:6

interrupt 50:21

interviews

109:14 110:7

110:10

introduced

100:8

introductions

2:7

intuitively 41:9

investigating

126:19

investment

126:18

invite 141:19

invited 77:23

invites 141:15

141:16

involved 8:11

13:20 32:14

32:24 46:6

46:12 77:13

99:18 127:10

128:13

135:23

involvement

99:14

ironically

124:22

island 61:13

issuance

74:14

issue 21:9

22:11 30:17

43:1 44:2

45:8,9,10

47:17 69:12

75:11 78:16

82:8 90:9

95:4 100:1

112:12 118:7

132:6,8,16

132:24

133:21,24

138:4
Meeting June 17, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com

Henderson Legal Services, Inc.

16

issued 8:1

72:3 74:17

issues 11:16

23:1 31:1

39:25 43:10

43:15 48:17

49:9 50:2

52:3 53:25

57:10,10

60:24 62:24

64:4 75:23

78:8 81:10

83:5 84:4,5

85:19 87:16

87:17 88:23

89:2 90:1,4

91:10 92:12

95:2,6 97:19

99:23 100:3

129:15 130:4

131:6,17,21

133:18 134:7

134:10

135:16

137:24

issuing 92:9

it’s 93:7

111:15

item 6:15 24:7

33:12 56:22

128:6 134:18

140:8

items 79:18

112:1,3

124:6

iteration 8:22

14:8 21:12

21:16

iterations

14:10 27:10

67:6

J

J 1:18

Jakobs 1:15

2:13,13 6:23

16:16 20:15

22:14 23:11

23:23 24:9

25:15 26:7

26:24 27:20

27:20 28:18

28:20 32:2,2

33:15,15

34:11 36:14

38:5,18,23

39:11 42:22

43:7 44:1

46:1,4,16,25

48:8 50:9,23

52:4 55:2,7

56:5,6,10

60:14 61:12

63:8,25

64:14,22

67:20 72:24

73:1 76:6,6

89:13,13

96:2,2 100:3

106:16 107:8

107:14,19,23

109:11

112:24 113:2

113:18,23

114:1,10,16

114:20,24

115:3,6

116:9 129:19

129:19

130:24

135:21

jams 50:7

January 19:20

21:8 24:14

24:15 126:6

Jen 2:18 11:11

57:3,4 59:7

60:12 65:8

66:1 73:21

87:18 108:12

109:11

130:24,25

131:1

Jen's 52:7

84:12

Jennifer 1:8

124:18

Jeremiah

141:11

Jesus 41:12

job 33:1 66:11

142:18

John 1:7,9,17

2:17 3:6 6:19

25:6,7 34:9

36:1 41:1

46:5 69:4

76:13 82:14

82:15 96:19

98:20 101:14

101:17

102:16 107:8

111:13

115:12 116:1

120:25 123:8

124:13,14

128:23

129:24

136:22 137:9

138:3

John's 101:10

105:2 129:11

137:13

join 141:8

joined 116:16

joint 9:18

July 72:3

82:23 83:22

83:23 98:25

103:4 113:14

113:14 114:5

114:6 116:19

120:6 121:9

124:19

128:16,18

130:1 137:15

140:11

jump 137:10

June 1:2 82:23

101:23 103:4

143:12

K

Karen 6:24

Karen's

112:25

Karim 1:4 7:2

29:11,25

30:16 32:3

66:24 67:2

67:22 68:10

69:21,23

74:23 77:21

92:15 95:20

101:14

Karim's 103:8

keep 52:23

72:23 108:6

109:25 120:1

124:3 130:3

130:8 138:14

keeping 10:19

Kelley 1:16

2:14 11:11

46:21,22

84:9 85:21

94:1,24

96:20 109:24

130:25

132:14

key 14:1 33:9

53:25 81:10

100:23

kicked 23:20

kids 127:21

kind 16:24

28:2,25 35:8

35:20 37:14

49:24 54:9

64:7 81:13

85:10,24

86:1,10 94:2

94:21,24

98:18 103:23

104:23 105:2

106:2 107:4

119:24

127:25

133:25

135:10

138:19,21

142:9

kinds 38:7

44:14 133:14

Kline 1:16 2:14

2:14 28:9

29:4 46:22

48:5 49:2,24

50:21,24

84:9,9 85:20

85:21 94:1,1

109:24

knew 136:13

know 3:10

7:16 9:12

11:8 12:4,13

12:25 13:12

13:20,25

14:15,21

15:19 16:12

16:23 17:11

18:12,17,20

19:1,2 20:9

21:5,15,21

25:19 26:15

26:15 27:2

28:22,23,24

29:14,18,19

30:4,24 31:9

31:13,19,20
Meeting June 17, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com

Henderson Legal Services, Inc.

17

32:13,13

34:5,7,21

35:8,22,23

36:4,18,24

36:25 38:22

40:11,12,25

41:4,6,9,12

42:4,14,16

42:20 43:3,6

43:8 44:2,9,9

45:7,15

46:15 49:13

49:13,17

50:7 51:6,18

51:20,21,22

51:23 52:5,7

52:15,19,21

53:6,8,12

57:22,25

58:7,18,20

58:21 62:10

64:2,8,9,23

65:10,19

68:20 69:5

70:1,24 71:7

71:10,13,24

72:15 73:13

74:12 75:22

75:25 76:11

76:15,19

77:1,2,8,11

77:18 78:2

79:1,2,12,16

79:22,25

80:6 81:20

81:21,22

83:3 84:2

85:7 86:2,4,9

86:22 88:14

88:24 89:1

89:10,19,21

89:22,24

90:8,24

92:21 93:21

94:3 95:23

96:7,10,10

96:11,15,17

97:1,2,3,4,4

97:5,13,16

98:7 99:25

100:1,5,6,23

100:25 101:2

101:23,24

103:14,17,23

104:1,2,5,10

104:17,19

105:4,4

108:12,13

109:16,19,20

111:6,10,22

112:5 117:2

117:4 122:2

122:6,6,9,20

124:3,7

125:20,21

127:10,17

128:6,23

130:4,22

131:5,24

132:20,25

133:11,19,21

134:7,10,20

134:23 135:7

135:8,14

136:3,4,5,7

136:16,16,18

136:25 137:6

138:2,3,4,5,7

138:17,19,21

138:25

139:22 140:3

142:5

knowing 26:4

73:25 108:9

139:9,18

known 89:6

knows 76:3

Kylie 1:25

143:3,17

L

L.A 45:14

lab 91:8 96:3

105:15 134:3

labs 134:1

laid 62:22

138:23

lamp 127:2,16

landing 114:11

language

51:11

large 7:23

16:12 25:1,2

31:10 85:13

127:22

larger 27:23

27:23,23,24

28:4 49:9

70:14 78:8

142:6

late 21:18 44:8

44:9 96:23

116:17

latitude 10:2

laugh 79:7

laughing

26:22

Laughter

107:2

laundry 106:9

lawyers 93:4

lay 139:19

laying 139:13

lead 10:4,5

18:14 25:19

27:16 95:7

139:17

leads 142:19

leap 100:13

leave 4:15

62:17 111:6

111:8 127:21

leaving 6:2

Lebo 1:17

led 14:9 15:22

16:21

left 26:11

legal-wise

138:13

Lennox 4:2 7:4

66:16,21,25

68:1 69:6,9

77:20 85:4

Lennox's 68:4

let's 3:16 6:15

21:19 57:2

69:1,2 72:23

73:18 78:19

105:21

108:22,23

110:17,23

111:7,18

112:3,4

113:25 120:6

letter 66:25

68:1,4

letters 66:20

66:21

level 10:8,9

13:21,21

17:5 24:20

41:15 47:7

63:18 94:13

137:2,6,10

138:6

levels 8:19

10:19 14:15

19:15 35:22

40:16 42:4

54:1 70:10

74:11 75:10

81:8 83:6

84:7 87:9

91:14

lies 23:6

lifetimes 58:12

light 66:13

73:7

lighting 127:2

127:2,11

lights 127:21

limited 35:1

39:1 79:25

89:4 111:25

limits 47:15

line 3:2 34:18

34:21 52:12

100:9

lines 99:25

106:14

link 141:6

liquid 129:14

list 132:16

134:6,18

listen 33:19

listening 49:24

54:12 55:18

little 4:15 5:9

26:10 36:24

49:25 50:12

55:15 56:2

76:21,22,24

77:17 78:4

79:23 86:5

88:12,17

90:19,20

95:12 101:24

111:3,21

115:15 133:7

135:9

live 14:12,13

14:18 54:25

90:24

load 26:4

27:25

loading 25:18

26:4

loads 25:17

lock 40:22

locked 24:6
Meeting June 17, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com

Henderson Legal Services, Inc.

18

40:23 41:2,6

41:7 53:13

lockout 108:2

log 50:7

logger 81:9

logical 60:9

long 32:16

39:24 88:7

115:1 134:25

long-standing

8:24

longer 16:7

37:22 58:21

101:24,24

110:17 111:3

138:19

139:15

longer-term

8:25 134:9

look 3:15,16

4:21 14:22

18:24 26:17

30:20 33:13

40:10 47:12

56:11 59:25

68:19 69:10

69:13 70:22

71:4 75:16

83:1 84:3

86:24 87:3

91:14 120:1

125:10,24

129:4,25

136:24

137:18 138:4

138:12

141:23

looked 123:9

looking 7:1

14:23 29:19

31:12 58:18

58:19 73:16

79:5 84:7

94:4 117:12

117:13

123:21 125:3

129:7 130:21

132:4 136:5

136:7,16

138:2 139:3

looks 15:15

68:24 98:17

114:2

loophole 23:5

27:14 55:12

loopholes

48:20

lose 114:23,23

115:16

losing 114:14

lost 47:12

lot 9:12 12:16

20:13 21:4

21:17 27:21

33:18,20,20

34:4,14,23

35:2,2 38:10

38:18 39:24

39:25 41:17

44:16 46:6

49:5 53:1

55:18 57:7

58:22 70:8

96:4 101:24

118:4,5

122:16,19

125:2,11,12

125:16 135:5

137:23

lots 130:5

loud 69:16

love 43:3

77:11

low 37:10,12

lower 10:9

37:1 126:1

lucky 29:23

Lumière 127:1

lunch 4:6

66:15 101:7

106:15

108:18

110:22

M

M 1:15

major 6:15

25:11 63:12

91:10 92:12

95:6,15

135:1

makers 57:12

57:19,19,20

61:5,13 62:1

62:9 64:5

making 27:24

32:20 38:6

40:15 62:2

64:9 74:4

MALE5:23

106:25

114:15

115:18 116:6

118:12,15,16

118:25

119:18,22

manage

126:24

Mandyck 3:6

69:4 121:1

manner 48:20

manufacture

38:3 63:16

manufacturer

31:8,10

34:25 36:18

37:1,24

45:13,18

47:8 48:4

101:4 105:13

109:13

manufacture...

94:3

manufacture...

2:19 9:2

12:23 13:4

13:14 15:6

15:14 16:2

16:14,19

22:15 26:3

26:11,14,21

26:22 27:8

27:18 31:19

32:25 34:10

38:1 55:13

58:24 59:17

63:8 67:21

74:10 79:8

84:16,25

85:9,25

86:25 88:18

89:8,16 94:6

94:8,15,19

95:2 99:14

110:6,9

manufacturi...

2:20 63:24

mark 1:21

86:23

market 26:22

marketing

63:23

markets 63:12

63:15,17

material 25:13

math 97:7

108:2

matter 14:22

93:8 109:5

121:7 141:2

maximizing

137:21

McCabe 1:18

McCrudden

1:19 6:21

29:24 30:22

68:9

mean 6:5

18:11 32:7

38:6,8,19,23

39:13 40:1

41:1 42:1

43:12 44:12

46:6,8 48:3

49:19 50:7

52:5,12 54:2

55:8 61:14

61:18,20

64:22 65:10

80:13,15

87:7 92:22

93:3 96:4

99:9,12,13

100:4,11,13

102:3 103:11

106:20,21

107:25

109:12

112:13 113:2

124:22 130:2

130:12

136:18 137:3

meaningful

77:25 98:1

means 12:1

40:21,22

61:22 102:12

meant 23:25

measure 20:3

127:8

measured

75:17,24

78:23 134:12

134:21

mechanism

43:23

mechanisms

133:5

mediation

66:10
Meeting June 17, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com

Henderson Legal Services, Inc.

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medium 24:25

medium-term

134:4

meet 9:24

10:10 22:20

34:5 54:15

54:16,18

59:4 68:20

112:9 116:1

128:24 131:3

meeting 1:1

3:15 4:8

19:13 29:15

32:6 33:17

36:11 42:15

42:16 52:15

53:2 58:2

60:21,25

62:10 66:6

73:12,15

81:21 83:19

83:23 90:5

91:24 92:6

97:17 104:22

105:4,6,6,14

106:4,18

108:24

110:25

116:18

117:13,21

118:3 123:10

124:18,21

128:18 130:1

131:5 132:15

135:13

137:15,19

140:11

141:21

meetings 7:2

14:3 19:10

29:18 40:5,9

42:3,23

55:25 60:24

64:10 73:9

77:23 78:6

80:3 93:16

93:17 113:13

meets 114:3

114:22

members 1:1

13:10 31:17

41:8 58:23

65:14 104:23

112:22

120:20

122:14

126:22 128:4

128:8 130:18

135:15

137:15

140:14,15

membership

116:20

120:17 122:7

123:3

memos 140:10

mention 12:25

mentioned

20:8 28:9

29:12,21

56:12 77:21

113:17

121:20

merits 73:19

73:19,20,23

73:23

message

35:14,24

49:15 51:20

52:10 88:3

96:16,18

met 42:15

101:22

metal 9:5,5,7

method 8:25

21:11,11,15

22:2 23:12

73:6 80:17

81:3,5 83:24

84:4,5,11

86:24 90:22

93:2,18

97:13,24

98:3,4

methods 8:20

24:11 89:17

99:19 130:20

metric 5:4

10:19,20,24

16:19 20:12

20:12,12,20

20:22 21:2

22:17,17,18

23:17 25:16

35:22 40:11

40:12,13

41:5 43:2,4,4

43:10 44:24

45:5 49:17

70:6

metrics 10:17

42:15 43:3

Meyers 6:25

Michael 1:18

7:4,7

microphone

2:9

mid-April 8:10

mid-August

99:22 117:15

mid-July 98:23

121:9

mid-June

97:10

mid-nineties

15:10

middle 116:5

117:22 119:6

Miller 1:20

2:22,22 26:9

26:9 27:19

32:12,13

37:21,21

38:16,19

39:4 41:8

53:22 54:6

54:14,16,19

122:18

141:10,17

mind 89:24

130:3,8

minds 53:2

mine 126:3

minimum

136:25 138:6

minute 4:24

6:10

minutes 3:15

4:21,22,23

6:8,9,13

65:23 69:3

112:10

116:17

130:21

131:17

miscellaneo...

3:24 53:18

57:2,6,13

59:2 61:18

114:2,21

mitigate 12:17

mix-matched

100:9

mode 78:17

92:19

models 100:12

modest 15:12

19:21

modifications

74:13

modus 32:20

moment

140:24

Monday 3:21

7:12 19:13

45:11,16

51:14,16,17

51:20 53:3

54:22 115:22

123:11

money 127:23

monitoring

125:15

126:23

month 35:15

36:10 58:2

58:16 72:22

83:4,13,18

84:1 85:5

87:13 90:6

92:6 93:17

98:2 99:22

100:11

102:17,18

116:5 119:6

months 7:21

8:14 19:11

29:14 32:5

42:17,19

52:17,19

55:23 58:17

59:2 66:1

83:6,8,11

91:3,5,7

97:10 98:3

100:19 101:1

103:25

104:18

105:19

119:21

122:18

morning 3:8

51:20 111:2

132:9

motion 4:23

6:12 33:4

54:8,10

motor 25:23

36:15 127:4

129:8,13
Meeting June 17, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com

Henderson Legal Services, Inc.

20

motorcycle

115:3,4,5

move 5:2,24

6:15 11:25

12:5 39:1

44:21 46:11

46:15 53:10

66:12 68:4

70:21 71:15

80:5 81:2,7

83:14 87:13

87:21,21

93:22 103:19

103:22 104:5

115:9 127:7

132:16

moved 75:7

123:11

Movement

37:4

moves 75:1

moving 10:20

26:12 30:25

33:12 38:15

41:22 56:1,1

76:14 104:8

128:22

129:13

MREF 75:20

MREFs 75:6

75:15,23

multiple 36:20

44:10,15

multiple-day

52:2

multitude 58:8

mute 33:9

mutually 140:5

N

N 1:3 2:1

nailed 40:11

name 138:14

narrowed 61:5

61:10

narrowly

45:24

NASEO9:14

national 2:22

16:12

natural 80:20

nature 58:13

70:14 105:21

135:1

near 129:3

nearly 88:7

necessarily

78:22 89:20

130:13 140:1

necessary

53:11 62:16

80:22

necessitate

61:9

need 4:19 6:8

17:23 25:12

34:8 36:9

42:5 44:21

45:7,16,19

45:21 48:25

49:7 52:6

53:5 54:8

55:15,21,22

58:4,10,14

61:6,11

64:19 69:10

73:8 80:8

85:17 87:1,1

92:12 94:18

95:11,13,13

95:14,14,21

96:12,14,17

98:4 99:22

100:19

103:22

105:14,14

112:1,18,21

113:15,21

115:19 117:8

117:23

120:17 121:4

130:3,14

132:14 133:7

136:3 137:2

138:24 139:1

139:20,22

141:22

needed 9:23

37:23 103:19

131:8,12

137:11

needing 58:16

85:1 132:25

133:2

needs 9:25

10:10 45:6

48:19 50:4,5

51:25 56:2

58:22 60:7

64:18 70:16

73:17 86:11

111:9 132:22

133:3,16

139:23

141:22

negative 60:2

negotiate

14:15 19:15

41:13 57:18

67:4 73:25

74:7 95:25

104:18

105:21

106:25

negotiated 8:7

11:13 23:25

24:5 32:15

45:24 67:19

70:16,19

71:16 76:18

77:15 78:24

85:24 96:5

101:18 102:4

negotiating

11:10 31:2

44:10 58:2

75:8 77:3

79:22

negotiation

11:22 14:14

16:8 40:21

57:6 71:3

74:9,20,25

75:14 94:17

94:21 95:14

95:24 96:13

105:17

negotiations

11:4,9 50:17

102:8 103:14

Neither 121:24

NEMA 2:17

25:7 34:9

36:1 76:13

124:14

net 15:3

never 41:18

43:4 64:11

82:19

new 3:25 9:18

10:20 14:7

18:8 19:19

19:23 20:12

23:16 25:20

28:17 34:3

41:18 43:4

52:15 66:19

78:18,25

84:17 87:11

90:11 92:20

100:8 113:9

120:20

nice 66:11

Nine 122:18

no-brainer

137:1

NODA 44:2

nodding 73:4

118:4

nomination

121:8,9

141:3,5

nominations

19:7,8 73:11

93:14 142:8

non-compre...

61:7

NOPR 24:15

24:17,19

74:14,17

80:5 82:22

87:23 91:20

93:19 98:10

101:21

102:17,18,18

102:25

105:20,24

133:14

NOPRs 132:8

normal 17:11

62:18 102:14

102:16

normally 31:5

102:7 111:16

northwest

2:15 139:25

note 3:8 57:23

138:22

noted 13:8

18:12 121:8

notes 4:22 6:5

111:19,23,23

112:15

124:22 125:6

125:9

nothing's 40:6

notice 17:7

83:19 120:18

noticed 120:19

November
Meeting June 17, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com

Henderson Legal Services, Inc.

21

84:6 91:16

107:1

NREF 88:25

118:19

NREFs 87:17

number 14:22

14:22 15:2

16:20 17:10

19:18 23:22

24:7,11

37:15 38:12

41:20 56:11

57:8 62:13

86:1 131:5

numbers

31:14 32:8

60:9 87:10

O

O 2:1

Obama's

107:10

object 6:13

116:24

objection

119:20

objections

5:22 110:15

obligation

43:19

observations

7:15

obtaining

133:12

obvious 59:18

obviously

31:16 70:21

71:7 72:14

occupancy

127:3,19,22

occur 25:12

occurred

16:25 131:21

occurring

77:10

occurs 31:5

October 84:6

91:2,16,23

92:8 93:16

97:18,21

odd 5:1

OEMs 55:10

office 114:12

141:11

Officials 2:23

oftentimes

127:8

OGC 134:14

137:25

Oh 20:1 97:2

107:19

108:15

115:25

121:13

123:23

oil 19:22

okay 3:13 4:20

5:21 6:13

22:14 24:9

26:8,8,24

27:19 39:15

39:18 43:24

55:7 56:10

57:4 63:10

69:19 72:10

73:4 97:6

105:23 107:5

107:19

110:16

111:18

112:11 113:1

113:5,8,9

114:1 116:12

117:12,17

118:20

119:20,23

120:3,15

121:23 123:5

123:13,16

124:14

128:19

131:19

138:15

142:20

old 98:12

126:12

older 85:13

once 22:6 93:7

95:5 104:21

125:7 127:10

128:23

135:18

one's 33:10

42:11 63:14

118:23,23

one-day 105:6

105:6

one-month

86:8 87:14

ones 20:7 28:5

31:18 38:2

38:20 135:3

135:19

open 9:23 29:8

54:12 89:10

117:11

140:15,16,18

open-ended

82:8 87:25

opened 11:2

opening 11:21

11:21 80:7

operandi

32:21

operation

126:25

operationalize

23:2

opinion 17:16

22:23 35:11

42:2 63:2

89:5 138:1

opportunities

65:14,16

125:2,5,12

125:18

opportunity

7:25 8:23

12:3 111:11

121:6

opposed 33:5

40:3 42:17

48:1 54:10

54:25 99:10

128:11

129:16

opposite

41:21 96:20

optimized 26:3

option 37:9

62:7 67:14

90:25

optional 66:7

options 62:11

62:12

orally 112:15

order 25:12

36:11 95:2,9

95:16 98:24

109:6 131:13

orders 31:14

organically

16:24

organization

6:24 9:3

46:13 68:2

organizational

60:8

organizations

4:4 6:20 9:8

9:9 46:6

76:14

organize

139:23

originally

42:13 61:8

ought 74:22

outcome 14:1

26:17 30:4

74:19

outcomes

9:24 78:20

outline 131:18

outlined 23:14

94:6 127:6

128:1

outreach 68:2

68:3

outset 20:8

outside 29:15

128:12

130:17

134:12

outstanding

93:18

overall 7:15

39:9 125:19

126:2 127:9

overlap 92:5

overlapping

110:3

owners 126:7

P

P 1:3,3 2:1

p.m 114:22

116:13,19,23

116:24

118:21

Pacific 116:19

package 39:14

49:11,20

56:13 73:12

122:14 141:3

packaged 20:4

packet 7:11

page 4:25

86:11

parallel 74:21

133:4
Meeting June 17, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com

Henderson Legal Services, Inc.

22

139:1

parent 42:14

43:18 66:3

93:24

parroting

131:25

part 7:11 8:2,5

16:4 18:18

26:4,4 27:7

29:2,6 32:11

33:21 42:2

43:1 47:2

51:24 58:1

59:10 61:8,8

61:19 64:24

70:16 71:12

74:25 75:14

80:10 85:10

86:16 87:6,8

96:13,13

100:23

104:12 121:5

129:5 131:11

132:24

136:10 141:7

141:21

partial 25:17

25:18

participant

117:9

participants

2:24 7:1

29:10

participants'

9:25

participate

89:15 115:4

121:6 128:4

participated

29:7 33:16

33:16 77:24

96:4 136:21

participating

27:3 78:5

112:24

participation

142:22

particular

10:18 27:7

27:15 45:6

89:14 99:15

132:2

particularly

12:14 92:23

139:23

parties 29:17

67:14 70:20

89:2 140:6

143:8

parties' 143:9

partly 53:7

parts 26:19

pass 138:10

140:3

path 16:5 36:8

36:10

pathways 9:24

pay 96:16

126:17

penciled

123:10

people 4:17,21

6:10 13:20

17:3 19:2

20:11 21:15

21:20 26:21

29:21 30:2

32:6,8,13

33:19,23,24

34:3 39:22

40:18,19

41:11,17,20

42:23,24

43:1,8 46:14

46:25 47:13

52:13 59:11

59:16,17,20

59:22 60:6

63:2 64:9

73:13 80:14

81:4 89:20

90:1,8,21

96:11,15

97:23 99:5

99:18 101:7

102:3 107:3

111:14

115:14

120:18,21,22

120:23,24

121:6 122:11

124:16,17

126:8 127:17

128:24

130:21 135:9

140:19

percent 15:12

15:14 19:20

19:22,23

24:22,23,24

24:25 25:1

31:17 38:13

46:2 65:7

76:23 115:11

127:18

percentage

20:2 25:16

performance

10:22 26:3

period 14:20

16:7 52:2

80:18,18

87:14 92:3,8

92:16 93:2,4

97:6 99:11

102:4 103:3

108:3 121:9

136:13

person 19:11

33:17 113:5

113:16 118:3

118:5 119:6

119:22,23

personalities

46:11

personally

40:24 95:17

persons 13:2

perspective

36:2 71:10

71:17 77:23

83:1,11

85:17 94:3

101:12

123:12 125:2

125:25 128:7

128:10 130:3

phase 24:24

phone 68:7

69:4,19

100:18

113:14,17

115:1 116:18

116:18

117:23 118:1

118:8

pick 104:23

105:1 112:18

113:25

piece 6:13

22:7 36:23

84:11,23

85:23,24

110:3 133:5

pieces 129:11

129:17

pike 139:10

pile 122:22

131:10

pitched 47:19

place 73:3

85:1 102:13

placed 134:5,8

135:3

plan 36:12

79:23 86:1

98:15 103:12

104:12,14

105:5 107:10

128:16

140:12

planned

123:13

131:18

140:13

planning 70:4

76:3

plans 70:17

plants 15:2

plate 57:17

platform 100:8

play 50:24

players 27:2

63:12

please 138:14

141:13

pleased 110:6

plenty 68:17

68:19 99:7

plus 108:7

point 14:11

15:25 17:9

20:2 23:24

34:15 35:8

36:4 40:2

42:2,3,10

44:6 51:3

52:19 54:21

69:22,23

71:3,25 72:1

72:7,17

77:12,13,25

78:3 79:22

81:19 83:25

84:1 89:21

98:8 99:17

100:17

103:13

104:20

117:25 124:2
Meeting June 17, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com

Henderson Legal Services, Inc.

23

130:15

134:14 138:5

140:22

point's 41:19

points 13:3

89:20 128:15

132:21

policy 104:15

134:10

port 45:14

portion 62:19

80:1

posed 9:21

10:25

position 51:5

71:1 75:10

78:13

positive 30:4

59:22

possibilities

11:22 12:16

possibility

59:3 61:25

possible 58:9

59:9 92:23

102:11

138:13

possibly 17:12

62:7 84:1

post 102:18

postmortems

30:1

potential 7:24

15:25 16:10

48:13 57:17

62:24 66:19

85:1 102:1

127:6 128:1

potentially

13:18 34:17

51:23 88:23

125:20

pounds 62:3,4

Power 2:15

practice

140:16

predetermin...

36:12,13

prefer 76:9

preferred

106:19

preliminary

58:12

premature

81:19

preparation

124:21

prepare

137:14

preparing

94:12

present 15:3

30:18 65:15

presentation

34:1

presentations

40:3

presented

76:25 136:1

President

107:10

pressure

100:24

presume

122:1

pretty 8:9

13:11 19:6

25:13 26:13

44:21 51:10

56:17 57:1

64:3 65:2

66:13 78:6

78:12 80:4

100:21

115:16,16

125:3 127:15

127:22

preventing

27:14

previous

99:19

primarily 77:8

prior 133:14

135:12

138:22

priorities

131:10

132:10

134:18

prioritize

64:21 131:13

131:15 132:5

prioritized

131:20

priority 7:23

7:24 132:16

134:5

private 141:4

141:22

privately 11:12

probably 2:9

6:6 16:25

35:24 36:24

41:8 44:20

45:21 88:24

91:5 93:17

95:24 96:15

97:17 105:1

120:19 121:9

133:24

136:14

137:18

problem 5:11

21:3 135:24

problematic

82:8

problems 5:16

26:16 27:24

28:4 75:5

104:3 129:4

133:11

procedure

23:17 57:10

69:12,13,24

70:2,5,9,12

70:15,16,17

72:4,21 73:3

74:1,13,22

74:24 75:6

75:13,16,19

75:23 76:9

76:17 77:14

78:11 80:1,7

83:4,12

84:13,17,18

84:22 85:5

85:22 86:16

87:11,22

88:1,9,13,22

89:2,14 90:7

91:3,8,11,16

91:19 92:17

94:10,16

95:3,6,8,16

95:24 98:9

100:22 101:3

102:1 104:5

106:11 110:2

110:3 131:6

131:9 133:13

133:18,20,23

134:11,19,23

138:24 139:4

142:15

procedure's

87:20

procedures

20:7 35:7

41:16 48:13

49:18 57:18

69:25 74:16

76:20 77:7

77:22 82:11

99:7,10

132:8

proceed 75:2

132:17

proceedings

143:5

process 7:15

9:20 11:10

11:18 12:9

12:19 14:2

15:16 31:3

32:15 34:16

41:11 43:19

43:20 46:20

62:19 73:10

74:2,12,19

74:21 76:18

77:3,15,19

79:19,24

88:2 96:13

97:9,9,15

98:6 102:14

102:16,20

103:15 121:5

121:8 131:22

132:7 133:6

134:1 136:11

138:25

140:23 141:2

processes

96:25

produce 25:14

26:12 31:19

product 15:23

31:19,24

33:21 37:18

37:19 51:7

56:15,19,20

58:5,6 60:23

61:3,18 77:4

78:11 84:15

94:15 129:5

137:2,5

140:4,5

production

15:1 109:12

109:13
Meeting June 17, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com

Henderson Legal Services, Inc.

24

Productive

142:22

products 13:5

13:14 15:7

17:19 27:17

28:15 33:23

33:25 44:16

44:16 55:11

57:13 58:24

70:13 74:12

76:7 78:14

84:18,20

85:13,15

86:3 92:24

108:13

109:14 114:8

130:5

program 4:10

4:10 28:23

130:11,16,17

programs

89:18

progress 6:17

15:6 34:4

35:6,12,19

40:9 41:2

42:19,20

46:8 49:13

51:24,25

52:25 53:2

53:24 54:20

54:22 55:21

55:25 86:17

138:5

progressing

25:21

project 2:12

60:5,10

64:18 82:8

projected 26:5

projects 82:10

promising

56:4

properly 49:1

proposal

13:23 51:13

89:10 90:11

90:18 93:12

96:22

proposals

60:25

propose 76:4

135:17

proposed 7:22

7:25 10:4

12:2 18:1

28:21 41:23

43:2,10 55:3

65:17 66:6

70:18 72:3

73:2 74:14

74:20 79:3

79:24 80:2,9

80:16 87:16

89:9 90:22

132:14

proposing

90:13

proprietary

56:15,18

provide 4:9

18:24 21:12

44:19 48:20

78:6 126:14

137:9 138:1

provided 14:9

14:14

provides

15:14 16:6

18:21 21:23

providing

34:14 132:10

133:1 136:21

provision 18:1

18:19,24

provisions

13:1 49:17

49:18 78:17

78:17

provison

17:25

public 99:11

103:12 111:9

112:12 117:9

141:7,7

publication

18:5

publicly 78:15

publish 12:2

21:11 72:13

105:20,24

published

7:22 72:2,11

72:12 80:17

93:7 102:17

103:11

104:16

pull 56:17

pulls 24:15,16

pump 129:7,7

129:9

pumps 20:5

25:3 66:18

88:6 100:10

112:20 127:4

129:3

punchline

49:14

purposely

46:7

pursue 131:14

135:19

purview

128:11

push 49:9

97:18,20

109:6 111:7

pushed 15:24

41:17

pushing 61:5

95:1 124:4

put 14:23,25

25:24 52:17

55:13 64:5

64:25 70:17

70:23 71:2

78:10 79:23

82:10,12,15

83:19 99:18

101:21 109:8

111:14

117:22 119:1

120:18

123:14

124:21

125:18

135:10

puts 115:15

putting 17:14

34:22 41:9

48:1 73:20

127:22

puzzled 77:17

Q

quad 125:23

quads 14:19

quality 109:5

110:12

122:20

quantify

127:23

question 10:6

10:11,15,16

10:23 12:11

23:11 24:1

25:8 26:1,10

26:10,18

30:23 31:25

34:13 38:19

49:14 50:25

51:5 55:2

60:14 61:12

63:4,5,6

67:17 72:24

75:4,18

103:8 111:12

111:14

126:13

questions

8:19 9:22

10:1 11:1

17:4 24:10

28:8 33:4

34:8 37:24

40:1,3 46:3

60:12 65:25

73:20 128:20

129:24

131:23

133:21 135:4

137:20

138:23

quick 72:24

112:4

quicker 134:22

quickly 8:9

21:6 26:13

80:4 89:4

103:20,22

104:5

quite 27:14

62:22 70:12

78:5 82:6

quorum 3:13

115:10,10,17

R

R 1:3 2:1

race 123:2

radical 127:15

raised 21:17

75:21 90:4

100:4 133:21

137:24 138:2

138:4

raising 78:7

84:25 131:9

ramifications

59:13
Meeting June 17, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com

Henderson Legal Services, Inc.

25

range 39:19

86:5 127:1

rated 34:17

rating 70:5

78:13 89:17

ratings 22:5

87:2 100:10

rational 75:2

rationale

86:20

reach 29:13

42:9 67:14

81:12 86:21

reached 19:14

reaching

81:19

react 84:17

92:22 97:25

reaction 36:2

read 4:22 23:9

23:24 94:23

100:16,21

131:17

reading 6:10

ready 6:9 58:1

71:15,22

94:17,20

99:20,21,23

106:5 108:18

112:16

reaffirm 17:12

real 8:11 20:22

34:1 49:13

49:16 50:18

51:24 54:23

realistic 85:8

realistically

73:17 82:25

85:9

realizing 72:20

really 11:2

15:7 18:25

27:21 29:21

29:22 31:18

32:4,21

34:13 40:6

40:14 41:14

41:16 42:6

43:22 50:2

51:21 52:12

53:6,22

56:24 59:19

60:11 61:4

61:10,11

84:18 85:12

85:14,15

87:17 89:4

90:8 92:10

92:18,24

97:2 110:6

128:3,6,7

131:12 133:9

136:5,7

reap 126:17

reapply 121:4

121:21 122:6

reason 31:21

52:22 58:21

99:3 102:2

103:19 104:1

104:4,5,6

122:11

132:23

reasonable

60:9,10 80:8

84:8 85:18

85:25 88:15

reasoning

65:12,13

reasons 27:10

59:11 61:6

recall 19:24

recalls 131:17

receipt 13:1

receive 96:16

received 58:11

recess 110:22

recognization

34:22

recognize 7:17

21:6 32:1

54:23 74:15

94:18 130:14

recognized

7:18 21:3

recognizing

8:20 82:23

recommend

57:11

recommend...

19:18 21:7

22:10 23:10

27:6 43:13

44:25 45:3

45:23 48:12

57:25 61:16

62:13,14

105:18

110:14 133:9

133:25

140:11

recommend...

9:18 13:6

20:6 24:11

62:16 74:4

77:1

recommended

46:12 66:20

reconvene

110:21

record 12:14

109:9 112:12

143:6

records 51:25

52:1

redesign

15:22

redesigns

15:22

redo 124:3

reduce 125:12

125:13

redundant 6:4

6:6

reference

134:25

references

68:2

referencing

28:18

referred 87:18

referring

124:24

refine 128:6

reflect 58:10

reflected

44:24

reflects 122:21

refrig 114:3

refrigerants

16:1 28:10

28:14,17

refrigeration

3:24 53:18

56:6 57:2,6

57:13 59:2

61:18 63:12

114:22

refrigerator

50:10,13,14

58:8 124:25

126:10

refrigerators

61:7 88:7

reg-neg 12:11

43:20,24

68:5,12

72:14 73:21

110:12

regard 69:10

79:14 138:18

regards 52:6,9

78:1

regional 30:7

30:8 67:11

78:21 85:11

85:11 109:18

regrets 3:7

regular 17:24

18:1 41:11

regulate 130:7

regulated

33:24,25

42:24,25,25

43:8 47:1,7

47:11,14

49:3 51:2,7

61:14 62:1

67:7 130:6

regulating

50:13 70:6

129:16

regulation

23:6 45:1,17

56:23 107:11

107:16 129:7

regulations

21:20 28:21

76:20 107:9

regulatory

16:2 31:4,13

41:11 43:21

72:1,2,10

82:2,23

102:24 103:9

104:16

139:14,16,17

reinforce 98:8

related 22:10

90:4 131:6

relates 43:14

74:18

relative 77:15

128:14 143:7

143:9

relatively 27:2

71:19 134:6

released 98:13

relevant 13:3

relied 99:13
Meeting June 17, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com

Henderson Legal Services, Inc.

26

relooking

138:8

reluctance

136:8

remain 58:15

remaining

133:18

remember

31:14 37:25

59:1 89:21

100:7

remind 131:4

removal 60:4

removes 57:16

57:17

rep 33:14

53:20 113:7

repeatable

136:17

replacing

126:7,9,15

report 6:17

81:17,20,22

83:3,12 84:4

93:24 106:18

118:19

128:17

129:25 131:2

Reporter

143:1,4

reporting

113:18,19

reports 39:24

110:24 112:4

represent

20:13 38:1,2

87:11

representati...

9:10,12

63:13,22,22

representati...

23:18

representative

9:1,3 11:13

12:21 13:3

29:9 86:2

139:24 140:1

representati...

6:20 9:2,8,13

13:4 69:20

represented

7:4 13:13,15

13:16 63:21

representing

9:15 13:11

27:4 31:16

33:23 69:9

represents

13:15 38:1

request 3:25

54:4 55:9,9

66:15,25

102:21

105:20,22

requesting

67:3 69:10

requests

136:4

required 109:7

126:6

requirement

10:25 103:2

requirements

34:1 43:22

102:24

requires 78:22

122:25

reserve 123:22

residential

63:17 66:17

67:5 112:19

resolution

31:1 36:12

86:21

resolve 80:4

87:20 91:11

93:17

resources

71:20

respect 13:7

70:2

respects

122:25

respond 136:6

response 24:3

26:20 55:14

107:9

responses

12:7 92:13

responsibility

17:10 79:5

rest 63:1

135:12

137:14 141:8

141:8

restarted

110:23

restricted 55:4

result 31:23

54:7 77:4

110:12

resulting

23:17

results 25:14

98:18

retrofit 28:1

review 2:10

17:12,21,24

18:1,13

85:11 135:12

139:19

reviewed

139:5

reviewing

17:10

revise 22:17

71:9 87:5

revised 14:17

21:11 22:2

23:17 58:10

84:18 92:18

revision 17:20

17:21,22

18:7,14 58:4

69:25 138:25

revisions

21:18 81:6

134:20

Rheem 2:13

6:25 13:15

27:20 32:2

33:15 36:17

47:18 73:1

76:6 89:13

96:2,5 113:4

right 6:12

12:20 17:20

18:9,11

20:18 22:5

26:7 32:10

33:2,11 35:3

37:12 39:11

40:14,19

41:21 43:19

46:3 51:7

52:5 54:4,13

54:19 55:6

55:12 58:17

61:22 62:2

73:18 75:5

76:19 93:10

94:9,13

96:19,23

97:20 98:10

99:2 102:22

103:7 104:23

104:25 106:9

106:22,23

107:15,21

108:2,4,10

108:23 116:8

122:7 123:1

123:4,15,18

124:1,6

129:17,17

130:6 133:12

135:23

137:16,16

138:7 139:12

140:9 141:18

142:21

rightly 45:2

righty 141:1

ripe 68:11

risk 59:19

road 21:16

roadblocks

50:8 132:2

133:8,10,13

rock 27:13

roller 52:11

roof 28:1,2

rooftop 3:20

8:3 22:16

27:25 44:13

44:14 45:17

room 19:12

30:18 53:9

60:8 63:2

64:1,16 79:7

97:14 102:4

119:24

123:21 124:3

124:5 127:20

rooms 32:18

41:20

rotating

121:20

rough 24:21

128:14

roughly 28:16

122:8

round 22:4

109:16 110:7

rule 7:22,25

8:21 10:5

11:7,23 12:1

12:2,2,6,8,17

13:9 18:1,2,2

18:3,5,23
Meeting June 17, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com

Henderson Legal Services, Inc.

27

19:3 41:23

41:23 62:20

65:17 67:7

67:12,19

70:15,18

71:16 72:3,9

74:2,13,20

77:16 78:8

79:3,24 80:2

80:5,9 81:3,6

87:22 89:7

96:11,22,23

97:1 99:8

104:12

107:17

108:15

109:13 110:1

131:23,25

132:3,7

133:6 137:3

137:4 138:18

rule's 96:23

rulemaking

8:7 12:9,15

12:19 17:23

20:10 21:8

31:3 35:2

41:16 57:20

61:19 62:18

67:5 68:11

70:16,19

75:22 76:18

77:3,15

78:21,24

82:11 85:19

96:5 102:5

102:14

103:17

104:16

132:12,15,18

133:14

134:12

rulemakings

14:21 20:24

20:25 32:15

32:21 67:9

76:7 101:18

109:10

135:22

136:14

rules 21:16

55:6 105:10

109:6

running 27:23

28:4 83:1

rush 103:8

Rusty 100:17

100:17

S

S 1:3,25 2:1

143:3,17

safer 136:9

sales 44:19

sat 79:16

satisfied 14:13

92:3

save 14:19

127:18,22

savings 7:23

7:25 16:12

24:22 47:11

65:14,21

126:1,17

127:12

savior 46:20

saw 11:6,17

65:21 132:6

132:13

saying 25:9

26:2 38:2

49:2 53:23

73:2 74:24

98:23 101:2

102:17

105:23

106:19

107:11

126:25

says 13:1

18:20 23:13

23:16 40:10

43:24 44:23

scars 30:3

scenario 55:23

94:20 106:23

scenarios

59:10

schedule

36:13 58:19

65:24 66:5

71:11,14

72:2,12,15

72:16 85:18

90:12 93:12

102:5 104:15

104:22 112:2

113:13

119:20

132:12

139:14

scheduled

72:10 96:3

124:19 139:4

schedules

121:18

138:17

scheduling

70:21 119:24

142:1

scope 34:24

35:5,21 36:4

36:6 39:6,6

39:13,13,15

40:11 41:2,2

43:15 46:23

48:13 49:7

49:18 54:1

59:19 60:4

61:5,17 62:2

62:8 71:12

71:14 72:19

82:3,11

105:5 130:17

scoping 84:5

Scott 3:8

115:12 121:1

screen 122:15

second 6:15

10:15 15:13

15:24 18:18

20:5 24:18

24:23,24

29:3 30:5

40:12 50:22

50:25 105:17

109:2,3

secondary

96:7

Seconded

6:13

secret 136:19

secretary 13:6

57:11 62:14

62:15,16

122:13

sections 28:10

see 5:6 6:9

20:24,25

24:8 30:14

31:2 32:22

35:12 43:20

47:14 50:14

51:3 53:14

53:24 54:1

55:11,21,22

56:3 60:6,11

64:9 71:15

74:21 75:2

75:17 78:19

80:1,9 84:2

85:1 86:22

88:13,21

94:8 95:17

95:17 99:3

104:5 110:9

110:11

111:15 118:4

118:4 124:12

128:2,4

133:12,13

135:2 141:6

seeing 49:16

54:22 55:25

73:7 100:1

seek 135:17

136:20

seen 11:11

58:15 79:3

106:9

SEER 37:16

100:6,7,7,7

sees 133:8

selections

37:8

sell 31:24

45:12,13

47:20 85:13

selling 31:18

31:20

send 35:14,24

47:22 49:15

52:11 88:3

137:8 141:11

141:19

sense 8:22

40:22 50:8

54:9 70:8

75:15 76:16

80:13 84:14

84:19 86:8

89:16 95:7

133:15

142:15

sensitive

84:13

sensor 127:19

127:22

sensors 127:3

sent 3:6,8,14
Meeting June 17, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com

Henderson Legal Services, Inc.

28

138:22

sentence 5:9

97:6

sentences

45:25

separate 33:22

76:12 141:23

separately

61:10

September

81:22 84:4

88:12 97:18

98:1,6

117:22 118:4

119:6,9

120:8

September's

124:4

sequence

21:21 105:12

sequencing

80:16 132:8

serve 117:6

served 6:18

7:5 8:15

session 134:3

sessions 30:2

set 8:21 17:19

23:20 39:5

49:10 72:19

72:19 93:4

104:21,22,23

106:18

107:21

108:24,25

110:24

136:25

139:12

sets 55:5

setting 30:10

73:12

settled 28:25

settlement

102:4

seven 32:14

sex 123:2

share 87:4

96:8 140:20

shared 132:21

she'll 20:17

sheet 3:19 7:9

7:11,14 9:5,5

9:6 12:1 17:4

19:6 23:13

23:19 24:7,8

28:7 33:4

38:24 41:25

44:12,22

45:11 46:17

48:5 49:20

57:12 78:25

93:24 101:23

103:17 109:1

sheets 117:14

Shepherd 1:25

143:3,17

shift 28:16

57:2

shifting 37:14

shipments

137:2,5

shoot 119:5

short 7:18,19

90:6,8,9

short-term

60:22

shortcut 55:16

Shorthand

143:3

show 4:18

45:13 51:24

81:6 111:23

showed 42:20

showing 21:1

64:10,22

76:24

shows 57:15

side 25:4 39:6

41:21 64:6

64:25 68:22

sides 106:10

sift 122:22

significant

12:5 57:14

70:4 86:6

significantly

125:13

silence 33:7

similar 61:1

71:6 102:5

129:12

similarities

55:19

Simona 1:12

simple 50:25

134:6

simply 67:24

simultaneous

12:2 118:7

simultaneou...

98:16

single 127:1

sit 32:18 60:8

sitting 97:9

situation 32:4

40:21

situations

134:11

six 18:1 19:10

42:17,19

103:25

104:17

105:19

139:19

six-month

102:20

six-year 18:23

139:18

size 27:21 28:5

skip 40:4

131:18

skirting 43:21

slide 135:5

slides 111:14

slight 63:22

slot 37:23

slower 104:8

slowing

104:10

SMACMA9:5

small 24:24

26:11,14,22

27:2,8,18

30:24 31:7,7

31:10,17

65:14 129:10

smaller 65:16

65:21

SNAP28:23

SNOPR 78:18

92:2,17 94:7

94:8,16

95:22 96:9

98:17

SNOPRs 96:18

snow 38:6

sold 27:17

soliciting

73:11 120:20

solid 27:13

solution 23:4

31:1

solve 8:18

21:4

solves 46:24

48:6

somewhat

84:14 111:2

soon 44:21

71:19 79:24

80:12 97:24

110:11

sooner 10:9

21:22 72:20

73:17 93:23

97:19 105:3

106:1 107:25

108:9

soonest 108:1

sorry 8:4 56:5

106:16

sort 5:1 6:4,10

7:13,14 8:16

10:9 16:10

21:21 25:13

26:17 30:1

32:20 36:8

39:14 40:4

40:20 41:12

43:19,24

46:7,10 53:8

53:8 54:3

61:2 68:17

68:19 72:11

72:12 73:18

76:2 77:5

80:16 81:4

81:13,18

82:5,7 84:4

97:15 99:25

105:25

111:19

124:12,15

125:6,8

126:3 127:12

127:15,19

130:14 133:4

135:17

139:13

142:14

sorts 38:3

sound 63:25

sounds 60:17

64:5 76:2,4

76:16 77:7

95:11

space 19:10

speak 8:16

40:1,20 52:8

52:9 65:19
Meeting June 17, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com

Henderson Legal Services, Inc.

29

69:6 84:24

113:6

SPEAKER

5:23 7:6 72:4

106:25 114:5

114:15,18

115:18 116:6

116:22

117:16,18

118:10,12,15

118:16,20,23

118:25 119:7

119:14,18,22

120:4,9,12

120:15

121:11 122:3

123:17

speaking

88:25 118:7

speaks 39:20

spec 57:12

special 28:6

96:17

specific 8:19

12:8 36:18

36:25 133:9

specifically

8:16 56:19

67:17 92:18

133:16

specifies

78:25

speed 25:10

speeding

104:9

spend 97:23

105:9

spending

93:16

spent 14:3

27:14

spinning

39:23

spirit 8:16

57:16

spoke 101:19

spot 82:16

spots 122:3

spread 16:7

108:6

spreads

107:17

squared 76:17

stack 68:18

stage 29:3

stake 7:24

stakeholder

10:10 11:14

stakeholders

9:13 12:22

14:12 30:12

57:7 123:1

132:11,21,24

133:2

stall 60:23

88:2

standalone

57:12

standard 10:8

10:9,12,13

10:14,17,24

12:18 13:7

15:5 19:3,19

19:21,23

22:19,20,21

23:15 24:16

24:22 30:6

30:10 37:5

41:16 72:5

81:8 83:6

84:6 86:3

95:10

standard's

19:22

standards

2:12 8:19

9:18 10:22

14:18 15:9

19:1 23:19

23:25 24:1,2

24:5,8,12

26:12 30:8

34:17 35:7

36:22 48:14

57:19 58:3

67:10,11

73:25 74:7

74:20 75:1,2

78:21 81:20

84:23 85:11

85:12,15

91:4,17

93:23 94:13

94:17,21

95:16 109:18

130:16

134:12,25

start 2:2,3,4,7

3:17 32:6

40:3 51:18

54:22 69:14

70:10 79:24

81:5 88:11

88:12 89:9

90:19,20

95:1,3 98:5

99:6 104:24

105:2,3

106:1 114:14

128:8 132:25

started 29:16

29:18 71:23

72:20 73:16

80:12 83:3

99:16 121:11

126:21

128:15

142:14

starting 33:19

51:25 52:24

54:22 71:3

88:11 91:1,1

91:2 99:2

State 2:23 9:14

9:15

statement

13:2 100:20

states 12:22

13:5,12

static 100:24

status 76:5

statute 10:4

13:1 17:18

17:19 18:21

122:25 130:5

statutory

82:22 102:23

103:18,23

104:7

stay 62:17

73:18 121:22

staying 8:18

step 15:10,12

15:13 16:16

16:22 19:5

57:22 76:18

135:6

stepped 25:16

steps 124:12

128:1 137:16

137:17

142:16

stick 142:20

sticky 87:17

88:23

stone 107:22

stood 89:2

stop 68:25

101:11 109:8

stopped 50:10

stops 47:8

strange 26:10

strategy 8:25

straw 60:1

strawed 105:7

streamlined

30:25

streets 83:25

89:11

strikes 81:1

97:12

stringency

39:16,17

strong 63:2

strongly 13:8

22:16 42:6

struggling

49:25

study 139:24

stuff 52:7

73:14 92:20

106:7 112:12

138:18

sub-committ...

112:6

subgroup

111:21

124:17

subgroups

4:12 112:8

subissues

131:11

subject 22:19

submitted

13:2 14:7

66:21

subsequent

91:9

subsequently

44:4

substance

105:8 142:1

substantial

53:24 78:7

substantive

50:1 142:16

subway 38:7

successful

19:14 64:23

sufficient 83:8
Meeting June 17, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com

Henderson Legal Services, Inc.

30

84:16 88:10

123:20

142:12

suggest 101:8

108:17

111:24

137:13

suggested

40:6

suggesting

103:24 104:1

suggestion

74:21 88:19

101:6 140:5

summarize

112:13,15

summary

140:9

summer 91:21

93:13,15

summertime

97:22

supplier 63:15

63:23

support 9:16

57:24 67:25

72:14 74:23

76:8,16

supporting 4:4

76:14 110:2

supportive

68:4 71:16

71:18 74:6

76:23

supposed

124:2

sure 4:16 5:7

8:23 15:17

29:5 31:23

35:1 42:17

46:19 52:8

53:17 54:8

54:12 67:2

72:25 79:6

84:16 86:14

86:15,21

88:24 89:25

90:17 103:21

122:22

123:21 127:9

127:11 131:2

135:4,11

136:23 137:1

141:12

surely 22:8

42:10

surface 97:19

surgery 3:9

sustained 15:8

switch 52:12

system 5:2,3

5:15,24,25

6:3 18:7

25:25 26:5

47:2,5,10

125:1,19

126:16,22,25

127:2,3

128:7 129:4

129:6,10

systematic

139:14

systematically

139:3

systems 47:4

47:14,14

60:8 124:16

124:24 125:3

125:10,19,25

127:7 128:10

129:16,21

130:4,10

T

table 44:8

48:16 52:14

63:14 64:16

78:14,16

87:21

tackle 9:17

131:8

tackling 8:25

69:13

take 3:15 4:20

10:13 15:25

36:23 58:21

65:24 66:2

66:15 79:4

85:7 88:6

102:7 106:6

106:7,14,21

107:4,5

108:1 112:1

112:4 113:10

134:16

taken 110:22

110:25 123:3

takes 24:16,18

24:18 122:15

139:7,23

talk 4:17 7:13

30:2 31:11

48:23,25

49:10 52:6

53:14 61:15

69:2 70:21

70:24 71:8

71:11,11,14

74:11 75:7

75:10 80:22

87:18 99:21

125:7 129:22

130:14,18

131:19 135:7

137:9,9,15

142:11

talked 38:16

39:21 64:8

76:19 129:11

131:5 132:9

133:19

138:18

talking 29:16

36:17 38:6

42:4 47:17

48:4 50:12

52:23 68:25

69:14 70:8

70:10 79:6

80:20 86:23

90:6 91:21

93:1 95:9

106:1 109:15

113:18

128:15

130:15

138:19

talks 5:2

130:10

target 47:6,10

84:7 133:9

task 8:18 66:1

82:1,3

tasked 131:4

tasks 124:9,11

team 124:16

125:7,7

126:21

technical

20:17

technological

25:11

technologies

87:10 125:15

125:15

technology

16:18,25

25:8,22

76:15 99:15

teleconferen...

124:20

128:16

tell 54:3

102:23

122:17

temperature

41:3 53:9

57:9

ten 16:25

110:18

125:17

tentative 41:4

54:23

term 5:11 7:11

17:4 19:3,6

23:13,19

24:7,8 42:18

101:23

117:14

120:21

121:19 129:3

138:19

139:15

terming

120:25 121:3

121:15,17

terminology

44:22

terms 3:19 4:8

7:9,14 10:2

11:3,3,25

13:25 15:5,6

24:21 27:13

28:7,10 33:4

35:6,11

38:24 41:24

42:4 44:12

44:22 45:11

46:16 48:5

49:19 68:21

71:4 73:11

76:21 78:24

82:16 93:23

95:12 97:4

99:2 103:17

105:25 109:1

110:16 112:1

112:2 116:2

119:24

120:23
Meeting June 17, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com

Henderson Legal Services, Inc.

31

121:14,15,21

126:20

131:10

132:12 140:4

test 8:20,25

16:19 20:7

21:2,11,11

21:15,17,22

22:2 23:12

23:16 24:11

35:6 37:4

48:13 49:17

50:25 57:9

57:18 69:12

69:13,24,25

70:2,4,9,12

70:15,15,17

72:4,21 73:3

73:6 74:1,13

74:16,22,24

75:6,13,15

75:18,23

76:9,17,20

77:6,13,22

78:11 80:1,7

81:2,5 82:11

83:4,12,24

84:4,5,11,13

84:17,17,18

84:22 85:22

86:15,24

87:11,20,22

88:1,9,13,22

89:2,14 90:7

90:22,23

91:3,8,10,16

91:19 92:17

92:23 93:2

93:18 94:16

94:16 95:3,6

95:8,15,23

96:1 97:2,13

97:24 98:3,4

98:9 99:6,10

99:19 100:4

100:12,22

101:2,25

104:5 106:5

106:11 110:2

110:3 130:20

131:6,9

132:8 133:13

133:18,20,23

134:11,19,23

138:24 139:1

139:4 142:15

testable 34:20

tested 34:16

43:4 99:24

testing 16:20

21:5 47:16

74:12 80:17

85:6 86:1,25

90:2,4 94:11

95:9,22

96:14,21,25

98:18 100:14

tests 88:6,6

134:2

thank 7:7 17:1

24:9 27:19

29:4 73:4

109:21

136:21

thanks 5:20

13:24 26:8

32:1 110:21

117:5 128:22

140:7 142:21

Tharp 100:18

theoretically

131:22

thermal 19:20

63:13

they'd 14:6

thing 7:16 17:6

20:5 27:12

30:23 35:10

39:18 40:12

43:25 46:11

50:18 52:21

54:9 68:16

81:1,24 82:5

94:25 97:6

98:5,18

101:1,3

112:14

119:25

125:14 126:2

126:3 127:14

129:22 130:3

130:6,7

140:23

things 4:17

9:19,22 14:1

15:19 16:3,4

20:8 21:10

21:14 29:19

32:22 36:11

37:3,5,13

38:23 40:22

41:6 46:9

49:8 50:16

51:19 55:19

55:20 56:2

56:11 58:12

59:21 60:22

64:6 66:12

73:11 80:9

90:21 112:2

125:1,18,25

127:11,15

128:11,12,12

130:10

133:14 135:1

141:23

think 4:3,4,5

5:4,10 6:2,6

6:16 7:16,20

8:10 9:20

11:10 13:19

16:16,17,21

16:22 17:3

17:25 18:12

18:15 19:6,8

19:9 23:7,23

23:23 25:15

25:21,22

26:2,21 27:1

27:1 29:12

29:12,14,23

30:3,9,13,14

30:18,21,24

31:6,7 32:19

33:16,17,19

34:14 35:10

35:10,13,18

36:16 37:7

38:14 39:9

40:2 41:2

42:1,5,12,22

43:18 46:16

46:18 49:8

49:11,22

50:3,14 51:9

51:13,17,19

51:21,22

52:10,10,13

52:14,20

53:7,15,22

54:3,9 55:8

55:12,14,15

56:14 57:1,5

57:15 58:15

58:17,19

59:10,20

60:2,21 61:1

61:11 65:13

66:4,5,6,7,7

66:9,21

67:21,24

68:1,10,11

68:12,15,16

68:20 69:2

69:10 70:7

71:13,14,18

74:18,19,23

75:9,13,21

75:23 76:4

76:16 78:11

79:7,15,18

79:22 80:4

80:10 81:3,6

81:16 82:5

82:25 83:10

83:11,17

85:5,25 87:6

87:7,12,14

87:15 88:2,8

88:14,25

89:3,7,11,11

90:1,2,11,18

90:24 92:7,8

92:21,21

93:1,8 94:4,5

94:5,7,14,18

95:11,21

96:9,20,21

96:24 97:4

97:11 98:21

98:22,25

99:1,9 100:6

100:20

102:25 103:2

103:13,15

104:6 105:1

105:7,10

106:3,10,12

108:19 109:4

110:1,19

111:7,8

112:9,14

113:15,16,21

114:7,18

115:11 116:7

120:17,20,24

121:8,10

122:20,24

123:7,10,19

124:9,13
Meeting June 17, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com

Henderson Legal Services, Inc.

32

126:8,19

128:18,23

129:15,19

130:9,12

132:4,14,17

132:24 133:6

133:15,19,20

134:5,7,13

135:16

137:21

138:11,24

139:11

140:16

142:13,23

thinking 24:13

42:16,17,18

46:9 81:14

82:16 83:7

84:10 94:25

115:19 129:2

136:12

thinks 80:11

100:18

third 10:16

78:18 140:8

this'll 119:3,3

thought 3:14

9:23 23:25

24:1 30:11

32:8 44:7

47:13 65:4

85:21 86:12

87:24 94:2,9

94:25 106:13

107:6 133:24

thoughts

56:25 85:3

86:13 106:11

thousands

38:8

three 14:3 21:9

40:5,9,19

45:25 55:22

63:11,20

83:8,11 91:5

91:7 100:12

100:19 101:1

108:5,6

119:21 124:6

three-month

86:9,23

three-year

10:5 108:4

throwing

82:18 126:21

thrown 101:3

Thursday

119:8

Thursdays

119:8

tied 93:18,20

132:22

tier 24:24 59:1

tight 82:1,6,7,9

88:1 115:16

138:13

time 4:13,15

4:16,21 7:19

10:4,5 12:22

16:1,7 18:8

21:4 27:14

28:16 30:5

35:24 38:11

51:24 52:3

52:16,17,22

53:5,11,13

53:17 55:16

56:2 59:1

66:2,8 68:17

68:19 74:7

80:8 82:16

84:16,24

85:2,5,8,25

88:5,6,13

89:10 90:21

91:8,13

92:22 95:7,8

95:13,21

96:1 98:14

99:7 101:15

101:19,25

102:4,6,10

104:13

105:13,14

106:23 107:5

107:18 108:7

108:11,14

111:1,6,8,25

112:10

113:20,25

114:14

116:13 122:7

122:15,16

123:20

130:18,20

131:16

132:20

134:17

139:17

141:21 142:4

timeline 82:1

86:10 94:23

101:8 102:15

109:6 132:10

132:15,20,23

134:22

135:20

136:12

timelines

70:25 72:19

times 67:8

96:1 123:17

141:13

142:10

timing 29:13

69:1,2,11

73:20,24,24

76:21 81:7

81:11 97:4

100:18

timing's

101:21

today 4:18

6:21 9:14

21:25 28:15

42:11 45:21

46:19 63:12

74:5 103:18

111:25 112:9

115:14

121:25

123:11,13

134:15

135:25

137:18,25

today's 124:23

told 49:12

62:11

Tom 1:11 2:15

114:23

119:11 131:1

Tom's 24:1

tomorrow 3:9

73:16

Tony 113:6

tool 43:20

top 5:1 18:9

122:15 131:9

132:16

topic 39:20

40:4 55:16

57:1,14

64:11 65:24

66:14 68:3

98:5 112:3

130:20,22

131:1

topics 4:16

19:14 57:8

80:21 89:5

111:1 126:18

131:14

140:14 142:5

142:11,16,18

142:19

tossing 94:22

total 19:10

56:13 60:3

83:8 142:20

totally 8:12

62:5

tough 41:14

115:15,16

track 12:14

66:4

train 47:13

trajectory 16:6

Trane 7:6,8

transcribe

143:4

TRANSCRIB...

1:25

transcript

143:5

transformer

126:11

transformers

125:22,24

126:5,7

traveling 3:7

118:15

treat 94:16

treated 61:10

94:10

tricky 34:12

tried 63:21

tries 20:21

trigger 17:24

triggers 17:19

17:21 18:4

triple 85:7

102:6

trotted 3:18

trouble 9:6

40:14

true 2:20 25:22

76:1 143:5

truly 56:1

truncated

111:2
Meeting June 17, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com

Henderson Legal Services, Inc.

33

try 49:8 51:11

90:10 115:13

117:21 118:1

125:23

136:19,20

trying5:5 8:18

16:23 44:18

44:18 46:1

52:10,14

64:3 74:18

76:17 79:17

85:8 87:15

90:14,16

97:15 103:16

126:14 129:4

TSD 98:19

Tuesday 51:14

51:16,17

53:3

turn 124:10

turned 2:5

turns 61:4

twenty 120:8

two 6:11 10:11

10:16,22

11:20 14:3

15:22 17:8

17:14,19

24:14 26:19

29:14 33:22

36:17 40:20

41:6 52:19

56:11 58:16

59:3 60:2,15

64:7 67:6,8,8

69:25 75:17

90:21 91:3,7

98:3 106:18

114:12 115:2

115:16

117:14

118:25 119:1

120:7 121:7

121:20 122:3

122:5 132:13

134:8 140:10

141:4,23

two-hour

142:20

two-month

91:15

two-step 15:16

type 31:4

35:12,18

82:1 101:1

136:15,19

types 35:4

84:15 136:24

typical 30:9

35:2

typically91:25

94:7,12

104:21

U

U.S 15:2

ultimate 10:21

ultimately 19:2

19:3 22:8,25

30:3 39:14

49:20 93:3

125:12

unanimous

8:14 20:3

unanimously

25:5 33:11

uncertain 74:9

undermines

23:5

understand

9:21 13:10

20:10 46:24

50:4 52:18

56:9 59:18

67:21 70:3

85:12,14

90:7 96:6

102:9,10

103:13,16,20

104:6 138:7

understanda...

59:16

understandi...

17:17 21:21

55:15 62:9

62:21 80:11

86:10 87:2

understands

62:23

understood

12:10,11,13

55:9 75:24

103:7

underway 8:10

71:20

undue 34:22

unit 45:18

unitary 101:20

units 3:20 8:3

22:16 27:7,7

27:25 44:13

44:14 127:9

universe 45:3

unknown

100:20,22

unmute 3:2

unmuted 69:6

upcoming

85:19

update 17:12

33:13 36:6

77:22 120:22

120:23

124:11

updates 3:17

3:23 4:12

6:16

updating

134:24

upfront 88:3

upside 129:23

urgent 134:20

usage 129:21

138:20,20

use 5:10 10:10

10:16 11:19

12:17 20:13

20:16 21:24

22:18 25:18

34:23 36:23

37:18,19

38:21 66:5,7

71:2 91:8

97:10 136:20

useful 11:21

17:3 105:14

105:15 112:9

139:7 140:5

users 15:3

uses 30:13

usually 26:18

111:8

utilities 12:23

utility 9:9

V

vacation

114:10

valid 56:24

value 15:3

22:7,9 99:9

values 24:21

25:3

variable 10:10

25:10,10

variety 13:20

38:4 52:3

various 11:14

16:9 124:9

ventilation

20:15,16,18

38:7

versions

134:24

versus 38:17

47:4 138:8

VFD 16:18

view 13:3

16:11 44:6

65:18 68:8

73:22 75:20

108:18

viewpoints

60:7

visits 134:3

voice 68:7

volume 37:1

volunteer

112:22 117:3

135:10

volunteered

116:25 124:9

124:10

128:25

volunteers

112:20

128:21

132:19

135:17

vote 20:3 33:3

33:7 35:16

49:23 55:3

57:23 65:1,2

65:2,3,20

106:14

108:18,22,23

voted 50:19

57:8 61:13

62:24 64:15

65:5,9

votes 41:3

49:16 52:1,1

53:7,25

54:23 57:9

59:25,25

60:2,3

voting 13:22

51:18 60:1

109:8,25
Meeting June 17, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com

Henderson Legal Services, Inc.

34

W

wait 4:24,25

4:25,25

96:22

waiting 52:8

97:1

walk 17:4 87:4

walking

127:17

want 2:2,3

4:17 7:12

12:24 17:17

29:5 31:23

32:10,12,23

35:12,19

36:3 40:12

40:24 41:6

43:17,20

44:20,21

45:22 47:22

48:8 52:8,21

52:23 53:6,8

53:13,16,17

53:19 54:11

55:1,16

61:15 66:24

68:6 69:7,12

69:21 71:11

71:11,12,15

79:24,25

80:2,2,4,6,10

81:16 84:12

84:15,24

86:17 88:3

94:2 96:11

96:12 97:6

97:17,19

101:8,13

102:18

103:21 104:1

104:6 105:1

105:24 107:3

107:7 108:14

108:23,24

109:8 111:8

111:16,22

112:5,8

114:13

115:20

120:22 121:4

121:22 128:2

131:24 135:9

135:15,17

140:14,15,19

140:22,24

141:9,15,15

141:20,25

142:5

wanted 8:23

29:21 31:25

32:3 47:20

52:20 75:7

117:3 137:12

wants 29:7

69:6 121:3

warm 19:19

68:13

Washington

117:16

water 13:7

way 11:6 14:25

15:8 16:13

16:22 17:18

18:3 21:23

25:18,20

30:14 31:20

32:16 38:10

39:1 43:16

45:6 48:19

48:25 61:9

64:22,24

65:3 75:3,25

75:25 78:24

79:6 80:24

81:14 82:22

97:11 108:12

118:18

121:16 122:2

122:15 124:5

132:17

ways 14:23

64:7

we'll 2:10 3:16

4:6,7,12,15

24:4 33:6

34:5 66:14

69:1 82:15

83:19 84:2

96:12 97:10

97:23 102:11

110:20 125:8

128:23 140:3

141:14,19

142:14,18,20

we're 3:17

9:17 14:23

22:12 26:12

27:23 28:24

30:14 33:17

35:1,15,21

36:19 39:7

40:14 42:1,3

42:6 43:11

44:9,17,17

44:18,18

45:20 47:1

48:3 50:12

51:17 52:19

52:21 55:25

55:25 56:14

57:25 58:1

58:18,19

59:4,23

62:21 64:1,3

65:23 66:4,5

66:7 67:3

71:21,22

72:18 73:16

76:24 77:4

77:18 79:22

81:15,17

83:21 84:10

85:14 86:15

86:23 87:15

93:4 94:19

96:4 97:9,15

102:3,13,17

103:21 104:8

104:9,10

105:15,25

107:5,24

110:17,18

113:14

117:12,23

118:12

122:11,21

123:22,24

124:5,9,24

125:22 129:4

129:15 133:5

134:13

135:19

136:23 137:5

138:9,12,19

140:9 142:7

142:23

we've 11:11

33:18 40:10

41:3,5 46:17

47:3 54:1

57:1,8 63:21

68:3 71:21

75:14 76:19

76:21 78:15

96:4 106:15

124:19,23

137:24,24

webinar 1:14

1:22 2:8,25

7:12 19:13

54:13 83:22

111:10,15

113:24

116:15

140:19,19

141:4,7,20

webinars

141:4

week 3:8 4:1

46:18 57:11

83:19 97:20

114:15

115:23

119:11,15,16

119:18

weeks 50:10

83:25 114:12

120:19 131:3

weighted

25:17

Weiss 1:21

welcome

82:15 105:18

well-represe...

21:25

went 75:25

weren't 109:12

109:14

what-ifs 32:6

wheel 47:21

wheels 39:23

Whitwell 27:15

whys 86:21

wide 13:20

willing 53:15

72:18 79:23

104:17 107:5

107:6

willingness

53:10 72:13

wine 58:7,8

Winningham

1:22 69:8,8

69:18 77:20

79:11 82:21

85:4 103:1,4

wireless

125:16

wish 90:23

121:7
Meeting June 17, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com

Henderson Legal Services, Inc.

35

wondering

23:12 84:23

word 54:6

wording 44:3

words 10:4,12

23:20 83:18

work 7:19 8:10

14:3 21:11

22:25 28:3

32:4,9 40:16

41:10 42:12

47:24,25

50:5 53:5,10

58:2,14

60:22 76:9

77:21 79:19

80:19 84:6

84:22 91:11

93:13 95:8

97:3,7,24

98:3,3,5

99:21 102:11

102:13 110:8

116:10

122:21 130:4

130:22 131:1

137:7 138:22

140:4

workable 63:3

worked 11:8

16:13 19:4

29:12 64:6

77:3,7,8

workers 9:5

working 3:18

3:20,24,25

4:1,2 6:16,18

6:18,22 7:2,5

7:17 8:8,11

8:15 13:17

13:21 15:18

15:21 19:7

20:11 22:12

22:22,23,25

23:7,8 25:5

27:5 29:6,15

29:17 30:1,5

30:7,8,10,15

31:22 33:14

34:19 35:12

35:14 40:8

40:10,18

41:24 44:17

47:3 48:12

49:1 50:10

51:10 53:19

53:21 55:5

57:24 58:6

58:16 59:4

60:22 61:2

61:15 64:23

66:15,16,19

67:4,13

68:18,21

69:21,25

70:11,25

71:21 74:6

75:5 76:8,15

77:14 79:1

80:10,12,15

80:19,21

81:15,25

88:4 89:9

91:12 92:11

93:14 95:5

99:4 101:7

101:12,22

102:12

103:24

104:21 105:9

106:17

108:24

110:16 112:4

112:5 113:11

113:15

115:20

116:20 117:1

117:3,14

135:7,11,15

138:12 141:5

142:3

workload

57:17

works 5:20

17:18 48:2

95:6 116:9

118:3,6

121:16

world 20:22

38:14

worry 44:7

87:24 129:20

worse 100:5

worth 51:5

130:18

worthwhile

126:19

wouldn't 23:14

24:3 50:14

60:23 65:8

96:16

write 90:15

writing 36:7

135:10

written 14:7

54:10 80:23

88:21 120:5

120:6

wrong 123:14

X

X 22:7

Y

yeah 3:1 5:6

5:18 6:5

12:24 13:24

23:16 33:8

34:11 38:19

43:7 44:9

46:1,20

60:20 68:10

69:8 73:10

83:2,20

91:22 94:24

103:10

108:16

111:10,13

112:16,17

113:23

115:13 116:4

116:11

117:17

118:11,15,16

119:14 120:6

120:24

121:13,19

122:17 123:2

123:3 129:21

129:23 130:2

130:9 136:18

141:14,14,14

142:18

year 3:19

10:14,15

15:2 24:16

36:9 96:3

102:19

103:25

105:25

106:19,22

120:21,25,25

121:16,17

years 11:9

16:20 17:1

17:10 18:2,3

18:22,25

21:9 24:18

27:23 32:14

44:10 55:20

70:1 107:17

108:5,6

125:17 139:8

139:19

yep 83:12,14

123:6

yesterday 2:5

3:21 4:5 7:10

66:22

Z

zeroing 40:15

0

1

1 19:18 20:2

56:12 62:13

84:7 91:2

92:8 98:1

126:6

1-E 123:23

1:00 110:18

114:22

116:13,19

1:30 110:19

1:45 110:20,21

10 15:12 24:22

127:18

10:00 116:19

119:9,19

120:12,14

123:19

100 46:2 65:7

10th 118:9,10

118:15,16

11th 118:13,16

12 122:8

12:15 4:6

12:30 101:6

12th 118:13,17

13 37:16 100:6

13's 118:20

13th 114:9,23

118:18,22,24

120:7

13th's 114:17

14 100:7

14th 114:4

119:7,7

15 14:19 100:7

122:9
Meeting June 17, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com

Henderson Legal Services, Inc.

36

15th 39:10

42:10,13

54:11 101:23

114:3,13,16

16 40:19

16th 114:3,20

114:21

17 1:2 19:7,8

100:7

17th 116:6,9

116:19

117:10

118:23 119:9

120:6 128:18

18th 143:12

1st 19:20

24:14 81:22

124:19

128:17

2

2 23:22 24:11

2,500 62:4

2:00 116:22,23

116:24

118:21 119:4

120:7,7

2:30 111:6

20 125:17

2005 15:11

2010 15:11

2014 8:1

2015 1:2 97:5

97:7 143:12

2016 72:10

85:16 97:8

126:6

2017 82:23

88:15 103:4

2018 15:12

17:8 24:14

24:22

2019 24:15

2021 108:2

139:20,21

2023 15:13

17:8 18:9

19:21 22:1

23:15 24:1,2

24:5,8 28:16

20th 115:25

210/240 78:5

89:15 90:4

24th 120:10,11

120:12

123:22

25 15:14 24:23

25:1 40:18

40:19

27 24:25

28 24:25

28th 101:22

29th 120:9

3

3 24:11

3:00 119:9,19

120:12,14

123:19

30 15:14 24:23

24:24 55:24

73:14 88:9

91:3,9,11

92:4,11,22

30-day 85:5

30-minute

141:4

30-year 14:20

31 99:8

31st 91:17

98:6 101:11

107:4

4

4 24:7

4:00 119:4

120:7,7

5

5 127:18

50 15:4 38:13

62:3 100:12

500 31:8

5th 49:22

6

60 48:11 73:14

80:17 91:25

100:12

6th 117:20,20

7

75 48:11 92:1

92:4

75-day 80:17

92:3

7th 116:5,7

8

80 19:22,24

115:11

81 19:20,25

20:1

82 19:23

9

9/24 119:19

90.1 21:23

99 31:17 76:23