1 IN THE UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT

2 FOR THE SOUTHERN DISTRICT OF OHIO

3 EASTERN DIVISION

4 * * *

5 STACIE RAY, BASIL ARGENTO,

6 JANE DOE, and ASHLEY BREDA,

7 Plaintiffs,

8 vs. CASE NO. 2:18-CV-00272-MHW-CMV

9 AMY ACTON, IN HER OFFICIAL

10 CAPACITY AS DIRECTOR OF THE

11 OHIO DEPARTMENT OF HEALTH,

12 et al.,

13 Defendants.

14 * * *

15 Deposition of JANE DOE, Plaintiff

16 herein, called by the Defendants for

17 cross-examination pursuant to the Rules of Civil

18 Procedure, taken before me, Kathy S. Wysong, a

19 Notary Public in and for the State of Ohio, at the

20 offices of Calfee Halter & Griswold, 41 South High

21 Street, Suite 1200, Columbus, Ohio, on Friday,

22 September 13, 2019, at 11:02 a.m.

23 * * *

24

25

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1 EXAMINATION CONDUCTED PAGE

2 BY MR. BLAKE:......................... 5

3

4 EXHIBIT MARKED

5 (Thereupon, Defendants' Exhibit 8,

6 birth certificate of Jane Doe, was

7 marked for purposes of

8 identification.)...................... 93

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1 APPEARANCES:

2 On behalf of the Plaintiffs:

3 Lambda Legal

4 By: Kara N. Ingelhart (Videoconference)

 Attorney at Law

5 105 West Adams Street

 Suite 2600

6 Chicago, Illinois 60603

 312-663-4413

7 kingelhart@lambdalegal.org

8 On behalf of the Defendants:

9 Calfee Halter & Griswold, LLP

10 By: Jason J. Blake

 Attorney at Law

11 41 South High Street

 Suite 1200

12 Columbus, Ohio 43215

 614-621-7789

13 jblake@calfee.com

14 ALSO PRESENT:

15 Rachel Belenker

16 * * *

17

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1 JANE DOE

2 of lawful age, Plaintiff herein, having been first

3 duly cautioned and sworn, as hereinafter

4 certified, was examined and said as follows:

5 MR. BLAKE: Do you prefer for

6 purposes of the record that we use the Jane Doe to

7 prevent it from being -- you know, the whole thing

8 being attorneys' eyes only or --

9 MS. INGELHART: So my only concern is

10 that some of the facts she may divulge could also

11 be identifying even without her name, I mean, like

12 different places she's worked --

13 MR. BLAKE: Sure.

14 MS. INGELHART: -- for instance,

15 so --

16 MR. BLAKE: Well, I think we can

17 handle that by just going through -- you know,

18 when the transcript is produced, you can designate

19 certain portions. My preference would be not to

20 designate the whole deposition attorneys' eyes

21 only.

22 MS. INGELHART: Yeah. Referring to

23 her as Jane Doe would solve that issue then, yeah.

24 MR. BLAKE: Okay.

25 MS. INGELHART: And for the witness,

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1 is the witness comfortable with that?

2 THE WITNESS: Sure.

3 MR. BLAKE: Okay. So I'll refer to

4 you then just as Jane Doe to the extent I need to

5 say your name somewhere.

6 CROSS-EXAMINATION

7 BY MR. BLAKE:

8 Q. Let me just go over a few ground

9 rules. Is that okay?

10 A. Absolutely.

11 Q. All right. So have you ever had

12 your deposition taken before?

13 A. Yeah.

14 Q. How many times?

15 A. I'm making a rough guess, probably

16 about fifty.

17 Q. Fifty?

18 A. Five zero.

19 Q. So you're pretty familiar with how

20 this works?

21 A. I'm fairly familiar. I haven't

22 given a deposition for several years, but I've

23 done quite a bit.

24 Q. And have most of those depositions

25 been in the context of like your medical

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1 expertise?

2 A. Exactly.

3 Q. Okay. Any other -- any other

4 context besides -- you know, besides medicine?

5 A. No.

6 Q. Okay. And have you been hired as

7 an expert witness in any of those instances?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. And then what about just as like a

10 fact witness for some sort of medical

11 malpractice defense or something like that?

12 A. I served as an expert witness for

13 plaintiffs in medical malpractice lawsuits for

14 an approximately twenty to twenty-five year

15 span.

16 Q. It sounds like you've done quite a

17 number -- several dozen expert witnesses for

18 plaintiffs over the course of your career; is

19 that accurate?

20 A. That is accurate.

21 Q. Is that the only kind of

22 circumstance that you've been deposed in?

23 A. No. I also testified at trial as

24 an expert witness probably about ten times if I

25 had to guess. I don't have an exact number to

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1 give you.

2 Q. Okay.

3 A. But it was over the same period of

4 time for the same reasons.

5 Q. And then have you ever just served

6 as a regular fact witness in any case?

7 A. I'm not sure I'm understanding

8 what your question is.

9 Q. Sure. So you mentioned these

10 times that you've served as an expert witness,

11 that's where a party hires you to come and

12 testify in your expert opinion about a matter I

13 assume relating to your field of expertise,

14 right?

15 A. Correct.

16 Q. Have there been any other -- well,

17 have you given testimony in a deposition or at

18 trial in any other context besides as an

19 expert?

20 A. I was called up in perhaps a total

21 of six medical malpractice actions where I was

22 the party, but I was a party among numerous

23 other physicians who were involved in the care

24 of the patient and I was -- I had to give a

25 deposition. I was severed before trial in each

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1 case.

2 Q. Okay.

3 A. All of those occurred more than

4 twenty years ago, as far as I can recall.

5 Q. Okay. So you've been both an

6 expert witness hired for your expertise and

7 you've been also subject to discovery as a

8 defendant in medical malpractice cases; is that

9 right?

10 A. That is right.

11 Q. Okay. Now, I guess I'm less

12 interested sort of in the details of those

13 medical malpractice cases, but as a result of

14 any of those, did you ever have any -- like

15 your license suspended or revoked or under

16 investigation or anything like that?

17 A. Well, as I had said, I was severed

18 from these cases after I gave deposition. I

19 never actually had to testify at trial. I

20 continued in these lawsuits after I gave the

21 deposition obviously as just a bystander, so to

22 speak, in what happened to the patient, okay.

23 So I never went to trial. There was never a

24 payment made on my behalf. If you were to go

25 to the national practitioner databank, you'd

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1 find no interest.

2 Q. Okay. I guess maybe the

3 terminology where you practice is different

4 than here, but, you know, here in Ohio when you

5 get severed from a case, that doesn't

6 necessarily mean your involvement in the case

7 is over as a defendant. It sounds like you

8 were dismissed, you no longer were a party --

9 or a defendant in the case after your

10 deposition; is that accurate?

11 A. That's accurate.

12 Q. Okay. Well, I won't spend a long

13 time then beating the -- you know, beating the

14 rules in a deposition to death. It sounds like

15 you have a lot of experience, and if there's

16 something that crops up, you know, you can let

17 me know and we can work it out. I will just

18 point out, you know, if you need to take a

19 break at any time, you know, you're free to do

20 that provided that there's not a question

21 pending. You know, if there's a question

22 pending, answer the question and then at that

23 point you're free to take a break. Okay?

24 A. Sure.

25 Q. And the other depositions of the

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1 other plaintiffs I'll say have gone about three

2 hours so I would anticipate us to go about that

3 length of time today. Okay?

4 A. Okay.

5 Q. Let me see if there's anything

6 else. All right. As with the other

7 plaintiffs, I just want to lay some groundwork

8 for some terms I'm going to use for the

9 deposition and that way there's no confusion

10 when I refer to something what I'm referring

11 to. Okay?

12 So the first term is ODH, and when

13 I say ODH, that means all defendants

14 collectively. All right?

15 A. I presume that's Ohio Department

16 of Health.

17 Q. That's right. But the Ohio

18 Department of Health is just one of several

19 defendants here, right, you've also named the

20 Department of Vital Statistics, among others,

21 and you've named the directors or heads of

22 those various agencies in their official

23 capacity, so just so there's no confusion, ODH

24 means all the defendants, not just the Ohio

25 Department of Health. All right?

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1 A. That's actually fine. You know,

2 ODH is not part of my normal working vocabulary

3 so I'm now adding it.

4 Q. Yeah, that's why I'm defining it

5 ahead of time. Now, if I do need to refer to

6 the Ohio Department of Health specifically,

7 I'll let you know that I'm doing it in that

8 instance. Okay?

9 A. Okay.

10 Q. All right. And if there's ever

11 any confusion about what I'm referring to, let

12 me know and I can clarify. Okay?

13 A. Okay.

14 Q. All right. The second term is

15 transgender, and when I use that term, I am

16 using it to refer to someone whose gender

17 identity does not align with their birth or

18 biological sex. Do you understand that?

19 MS. INGELHART: Objection. That

20 calls for expert testimony. Based on previous

21 experience, I think there's going to be a few

22 terms of art, like transgender, like transgender

23 sex, biological sex, gender identity perhaps,

24 later some others, but if we could just have sort

25 of an ongoing standing objection to those terms

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1 and an understanding that those are terms of art

2 in dispute here, but I do understand the

3 efficiency here of trying to define terms. So

4 I'll object now but you can continue and you can

5 answer.

6 THE WITNESS: Okay. What was the

7 question?

8 BY MR. BLAKE:

9 Q. It was just me telling you when I

10 use the word transgender what it is I mean when

11 I say that. And when I use the term

12 transgender, I mean someone whose gender

13 identity does not align with their birth or

14 biological sex. All right?

15 A. I suppose that -- I don't suppose

16 that's unreasonable. We have to have some kind

17 of working terminology.

18 Q. Okay. Thank you. And cisgender

19 is -- when I use that term, I'm referring to

20 someone whose gender identity aligns with their

21 birth or biological sex. Okay?

22 A. Same stipulation.

23 Q. Okay. And I also know your

24 counsel's standing objection to the use of

25 various terms which are likely to come up

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1 during the course of your deposition. Okay?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. All right. Let's talk a little

4 bit about your background, and just first, what

5 is your address?

6 

7 

8 

9 Q. All right. And how long have you

10 lived in ?

11 A. Approximately four years.

12 Q. And have you been at that address,

13 the address the whole time?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. Okay. Where did you live before

16 ?

17 A. A combination of Manhattan in New

18 York and in upper 

19 Q. Okay.

20 A. I had a period of time where I had

21 two residences.

22 Q. Okay. So you were living back and

23 forth between and is that

24 fair?

25 A. Yes.

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1 Q. For how long did you do that?

2 A. Oh, approximately two years.

3 Q. Okay.

4 A. And then prior to that 

5 

6 Q. Okay.

7 A. -- 

8

 Okay. All right. So that takes

10 us back about thirty-one or thirty-two years.

11 Prior to that where were you living?

12 A. In where I

13 lived for I believe it was four years.

14 Q. Okay.

15 A. I'm getting a little rusty now.

16 Q. Yeah. Okay. I'm just trying to

17 get back to Ohio. So when did you -- when did

18 you move from Ohio?

19 A. When I was a child.

20 Q. Approximately --

21 A. A young child.

22 Q. Approximately how old?

23 A. I was under the age -- I was

24 approximately five.

25 Q. Okay.

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1 A. My parents had -- they're separate

2 families, they span both Dayton, Ohio and New

3 York City, and the family moved back and forth

4 for several years.

5 Q. Okay.

6 A. Then we settled in Long Island.

7 Q. Okay. So you were born at one of

8 the stints in between and Ohio?

9 A. I presume so.

10 Q. Yeah.

11 A. I don't know what other place they

12 were.

13 Q. We'll get into it, I guess. We've

14 got proof that you were born in Ohio, and I

15 hope we can all agree to that later on in the

16 deposition, but then you moved back to 

17 and were kind of raised there and at least

18 initially educated there and then worked there

19 for a long time?

20 A. It's more complicated. 

21 

22 

23 

24 Q. Okay.

25 A. I went to high school in 

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1 A. It was all at the same

2 institution.

3 Q. So all at ?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. Okay. And then the one-year

6 program following the fellowship, you said it

7 was a term I didn't recognize. It was -- could

8 you tell me what that is?

9 A. At that time there was no such

10 thing as a fellowship in doing 

11

12 

13 A. Yeah, 

14 

15 . There was no formal

16 fellowship that existed in the United States.

17 The system was that you basically got yourself

18 hired by the chief of the department and worked

19 for the chief for a year, at the end of which,

20 assuming that he approved of you, he provided a

21 letter saying that you were qualified in that

22 area.

23 Q. Okay.

24 A. But there was no fellowship

25 program that was approved by the American

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1 accurate?

2 A. That's very accurate.

3 Q. Okay. And then I take it, based

4 on the chronology you gave us earlier, in 2015

5 you moved to is that right?

6 A. That is right.

7 Q. And I assume you're in private

8 practice now or do you work for a hospital?

9 A. I work for a hospital.

10 Q. Okay. And what hospital do you

11 work for?

12 A. 

13 Q. Okay. What prompted the move from

14 to ?

15 A. It was -- there were several

16 factors. One is I had gotten a divorce, and I

17 really didn't like being in the same area where

18 my prior life had been. It was problematic

19 going into a restaurant and being asked where

20 my ex was. I just wanted a fresh start. That

21 was one.

22 Number two, because of the fact

23 that I was in the process of going through a

24 gender transition, I had a drop in the volume

25 of patients that were coming to see me, who

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1 objected because of their belief that they

2 wanted a different doctor, and so I probably

3 lost maybe a third of my patients. And the

4 consequence was there just wasn't enough income

5 to sustain a practice and with the expenses of

6 the divorce, ended up going bankrupt.

7 Made the conclusion that this was

8 either a very bad time in my life or God's way

9 of giving me a message to go do something else.

10 It took about six to eight months of searching

11 but I ultimately found this job in .

12 MS. INGELHART: Hey, Jake, could we

13 take just a one-minute break off the record. I

14 just need to adjust the temperature in this room?

15 MR. BLAKE: Sure.

16 MS. INGELHART: Thank you.

17 (Pause in proceedings.)

18 BY MR. BLAKE:

19 Q. As part of your medical training

20 and your undergraduate degree, is it your

21 understanding that sex and gender are

22 different?

23 MS. INGELHART: Objection. Calls for

24 expert testimony, but you can answer.

25 THE WITNESS: Look, I'm an

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1 I spend my day

2 worrying about .

3 That topic is not something that ever comes up.

4 BY MR. BLAKE:

5 Q. Gender and sex don't come up

6 during the -- during the -- within the context

7 of your practice of medicine?

8 A. Maybe with cardiologists that you

9 know but not me.

10 Q. So you wouldn't consider yourself

11 an expert on issues pertaining to biological

12 sex and gender identity?

13 A. Not in the slightest.

14 Q. You didn't have any medical

15 curriculum that was focused on transgender

16 issues?

17 A. No.

18 Q. And then you're not a specialist

19 or a practitioner in the field of

20 endocrinology, right?

21 A. Correct.

22 Q. Same with molecular genetics?

23 A. I'm sorry?

24 Q. Molecular genetics, you don't

25 practice in that field, right?

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1 A. Correct.

2 Q. And psychology?

3 A. Extremely little.

4 Q. Have you taken any coursework in

5 psychology?

6 A. Only during medical school.

7 Q. All right. Just the basic, you

8 know, like introductory course or courses that

9 every medical student would take?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. And I assume that you've taken

12 some amount of, you know, coursework in

13 endocrinology as well, right?

14 A. Absolute minimum.

15 Q. Yeah. There's not a certification

16 or a course of study in transgender medicine,

17 right?

18 A. I believe that such courses are

19 starting to appear in a limited number in the

20 United States, but if they are, they are not

21 widespread.

22 Q. Do you know what schools --

23 A. I'm not familiar with them.

24 Q. Okay. You're not sure what those

25 courses relate to or where those courses can be

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1 taken?

2 A. Correct.

3 Q. And do you know whether or not

4 those are even within the context of medical

5 training?

6 A. Again, I have no knowledge of

7 that.

8 Q. Have you taken any courses about

9 the distinction between sex and gender?

10 A. No.

11 Q. Have you published any papers on

12 the distinguishment of sex and gender?

13 A. No.

14 Q. Have you given any talks or

15 presentations on the topics of sex and gender?

16 A. No.

17 Q. All right. And I think as you

18 indicated, you certainly don't consider

19 yourself an expert in gender issues or issues

20 pertaining to biological sex, right?

21 A. Correct.

22 Q. From a medical perspective, do you

23 understand how a person's sex is determined?

24 A. I'm not even sure I understand

25 what your question is.

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1 Q. Well, you understand that -- well,

2 do you know that people have a sex, a

3 biological sex? Do you at least recognize

4 that?

5 A. I actually find that very

6 difficult to respond to because what one person

7 means by biological sex is different from

8 another person. Anything that you might try to

9 pin down is subject to a lot of error. This is

10 not something that I'm an expert on, okay. I

11 do not know what criteria one would use

12 defining biological sex. I don't know what the

13 term really means.

14 Q. Well, let me ask you this way, if

15 you are going to perform heart surgery on

16 someone -- that's something you do, right?

17 A. No. I don't do heart surgery.

18 Q. You don't do heart surgery. Okay.

19 I guess what is it you do medically in the

20 field of cardiology?

21 A. 

22

23 Q. Okay. So as part of your

24 

25 do you ask people what their sex is?

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1 A. No.

2 Q. So your form when people are

3 in-processed don't ask people to write down M

4 or F or anything like that?

5 A. I believe it is recorded in our

6 record, but that's not something I discuss with

7 my patients.

8 Q. All right. Do you associate any

9 biological outcomes or responses with a

10 person's sex?

11 A. Actually, I'm not sure I

12 understand what the question is.

13 Q. Well, you would agree that the

14 risk for heart disease correlates -- or there's

15 some correlation between a person's sex and

16 their risk for heart disease, right?

17 A. Actually, I would argue that.

18 Q. All right.

19 A. I personally don't think that's

20 true.

21 Q. So you don't -- so you don't

22 believe that males have any greater risk of

23 heart disease than females?

24 A. Not in my practice.

25 Q. Okay. Is it recognized --

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1 A. It's separated by maybe a ten year

2 higher incidence in males, but we see a huge

3 number of women with advanced cardiovascular

4 disease so we very much try not to start off

5 with a prejudice that a particular woman is

6 less likely to have cardiovascular disease. We

7 usually just proceed that they're probably or

8 at approximately the same risk and that the age

9 relevance is markedly offset by their lipid

10 problems, their smoking history, whether they

11 have diabetes, their family history. These are

12 far bigger factors than whether they're male or

13 female.

14 Q. But you recognize if a person is

15 male or female, that is going to be one of many

16 factors that you're going to consider in 

17 

18 correct?

19 A. One of many factors, but in my

20 opinion, it's extremely small.

21 Q. Okay. And I'm not asking you

22 whether it's the main factor or if it's even in

23 the top hundred of the factors, I was just

24 trying to clarify whether or not in your field

25 of cardiology it's recognized that a person's

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1 sex as male or female has any bearing on their

2 risk for cardiological disease, and as I

3 understand --

4 A. There is a wide -- I'm sorry.

5 Q. -- and as I understand your

6 testimony, it's your opinion that yes, it can

7 but there are other factors which have far more

8 relevance; is that accurate?

9 A. That's accurate.

10 Q. So I guess I'll go back to my

11 original question, which is, you know,

12 determining someone's biological sex is a

13 component of diagnosing someone's risk for

14 cardiovascular disease; is that right?

15 A. Well, here's the problem. If I

16 have a patient who comes in who's, say,

17 presenting as female, I'm not going to be

18 looking for proof of whether or not they have a

19 particular genetic makeup. We don't do

20 karyotypes or chromosomal analysis. We don't

21 take pictures of their genitalia. I have no

22 actual idea when someone is in the office truly

23 whether or not the person in front of me is

24 male or female.

25 Q. So if they came in -- if this

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1 hypothetical patient came in and was showing

2 signs of cardiovascular disease and they

3 indicated to you that you were female -- or

4 that they were female and you proceeded with

5 the treatment or course of treatment and then

6 you later discovered that they were, in fact,

7 transgendered and they had a biological sex as

8 male, that would be a factor that you would,

9 you know, take note of during your diagnosis,

10 correct?

11 MS. INGELHART: Objection. Asked and

12 answered but --

13 MR. BLAKE: There's no way I asked

14 and answered that question.

15 BY MR. BLAKE:

16 Q. But go ahead.

17 A. I'm confused by a term you used.

18 What is transgendered?

19 Q. Well, sorry, I thought that was

20 the term I defined, someone whose gender

21 identity does not align with their birth or

22 biological sex.

23 A. You're using transgender as an

24 adjective.

25 Q. Okay. So transgender, any related

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1 part of speech, means someone whose gender

2 identity does not align with their birth or

3 biological sex, that's the noun, but a person

4 who is transgendered would be a person whose

5 gender identity does not align with their birth

6 or biological sex. I guess we could do it as a

7 verb too but that wouldn't really make sense.

8 A. You're making it into an

9 adjective. It's like saying someone who is

10 black is blackened.

11 Q. Well, no, but is there a different

12 way in which you would prefer me to say it? A

13 transgendered individual? A transgendered

14 individual; is that --

15 A. Yes, it's much better to use

16 transgender as a noun.

17 Q. Okay. So a transgender individual

18 comes to your office, okay?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. All right. And they indicate to

21 you that they are a female. Still with me?

22 A. Okay.

23 Q. And you begin -- right, that's

24 what you record in your file, in your patient

25 notes, and begin your diagnosis and course of

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1 treatment for what appears to you to be

2 cardiovascular disease, all right?

3 A. Okay.

4 Q. You later learn during the course

5 of treatment that this person is a transgender

6 person and, in fact, was born a biological

7 male. You still with me?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. Do you in your practice update or

10 take note of the fact that this person's

11 genetics are male to the extent that that may

12 have a factor or impact on your diagnosis and

13 course of treatment?

14 MS. INGELHART: Objection. Compound.

15 You can answer.

16 THE WITNESS: The predominant reason

17 why people have cardiovascular disease is because

18 they have a genetic disorder of the way that the

19 liver handles their cholesterol, and they have an

20 elevation in what's called an LDL particle. And

21 this is a genetic defect that's transmitted in

22 families. There are multiple defects of this

23 kind -- of this type. Some of them are probably

24 sex linked. The majority of them appear to be

25 autosomal linked.

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1 We do not currently have the

2 technology to identify the specific defects that

3 people have. Whether or not someone is male or

4 female at the moment has no bearing on whether or

5 not they have this kind of defect, and it's not

6 something that we would be using as part of

7 something that we change the way we would do

8 diagnostic testing or treatment. It's literally

9 of no -- in my practice, it's of no relevance.

10 BY MR. BLAKE:

11 Q. Can you rule out any causes of

12 cardiovascular disease based on what you've

13 referred to as sex-linked defects?

14 A. There's -- well, we don't know

15 that they're sex linked because there are so

16 many different defects, and we do not have

17 specific testing of which defect we're dealing

18 with unless you're in a research hospital. So

19 we know that they have a defect because their

20 particle levels are elevated, but the exact

21 nature of the defect will be unknown when

22 you're in an office practice.

23 Q. So it's possible in some settings

24 to eliminate certain causes of cardiovascular

25 disease because of a defect linked to a

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1 person's sex but just not in your practice?

2 A. I'm not sure that I understand

3 that.

4 Q. Well, you said that in your

5 setting you couldn't do it, you couldn't make

6 the determination because you don't have a test

7 but that you could do it in maybe a laboratory

8 setting or something of that nature; is that

9 accurate?

10 A. That's possible, but, again, on a

11 practical basis, there is no availability for

12 testing of that nature. So we don't have the

13 ability to determine whether or not somebody

14 has a defect -- a genetic -- a sex-linked

15 defect as opposed to a nonsex-link defect.

16 Q. Okay. And that's with regard to

17 the LDL particles, right?

18 A. Correct.

19 Q. What about other causes of

20 cardiovascular disease, are any of those sex

21 linked?

22 A. Well, the only other causes that

23 I'm aware of are tobacco smoking and diabetes

24 accelerate the formation of cardiovascular

25 plaques, but there is no other underlying cause

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1 for cardiovascular plaques to form that I'm

2 aware of.

3 Q. Does the impact of smoking or

4 diabetes have a greater or lesser impact on

5 someone's cardiovascular health dependent upon

6 their sex?

7 A. The primary impact is their

8 particle level, and you can't in any given

9 person indicate that their sex has anything to

10 do with their particle level.

11 Q. So if a male and a female smoke

12 the identical amount of cigarettes for an

13 identical amount of time, would you expect one

14 or the other's LDL particle level to be

15 greater?

16 A. I think you may have missed the

17 concept. The underlying reason why the

18 particle levels are elevated is due to a

19 genetic defect in the way that the liver

20 removes particles from the bloodstream and it

21 has nothing to do with sex.

22 Q. Except for in the cases where

23 there's a genetic defect --

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. -- that is then sex linked?

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1 A. Yes.

2 Q. But for your purposes, it's

3 immaterial what's causing the liver to fail to

4 extract those particles, it's just -- you

5 just -- you're diagnosing -- you know, you're

6 diagnosing the symptom and proceeding from

7 there, right?

8 A. No, I wouldn't say that. We're

9 diagnosing the fact that they have an elevated

10 particle level, but whether or not the reason

11 why they have an elevated particle level is

12 because of any given specific defect, we don't

13 have the ability to do that.

14 Q. Do you treat equal numbers of

15 males and females?

16 A. I believe so.

17 Q. A person's biological sex is a

18 factor in his or her risk of stroke, right?

19 A. Actually, I don't believe that. I

20 believe the primary risk is what their LDL

21 particle level is.

22 Q. Do you know what the rates of

23 stroke are for males and females?

24 A. No. All of the patients that we

25 see in our office, they have strokes from

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1 emboli from their heart and they have strokes

2 from plaque disease in their neck, and if they

3 have plaque disease in their neck, then they,

4 without exception, will have elevated LDL

5 particle levels.

6 Q. Do you know whether the types or

7 kinds of anesthesia or the amounts of

8 anesthesia that are given to patients prior to

9 surgery, do you know whether that depends, in

10 part, upon their biological sex?

11 A. Well, I don't deliver anesthesia.

12 Okay. We have certified registered nurse

13 anesthesiologists in our hospital who do

14 everything anesthesia. I'm aware that physical

15 size, body fat, these are all likely factors.

16 I'm not aware that male versus female is a

17 major issue in delivering anesthesia. We have

18 far more problems with massively overweight

19 people or people with respiratory disease, we

20 worry about those people. We don't sit and

21 worry about one patient having a certain

22 anesthesia risk because they're female.

23 Q. There are various postoperative

24 procedures associated with a person's

25 biological sex, right?

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1 MS. INGELHART: Objection. It may

2 call for speculation.

3 THE WITNESS: I have no idea. I

4 don't know what you're referring to.

5 BY MR. BLAKE:

6 Q. So you don't know whether someone

7 post-surgery is given a different prognosis or

8 recovery or treatment plan based upon, at least

9 to some degree, their biological sex as male or

10 female?

11 A. Like, I'm 

12 I do 

13 

14 Okay. I don't do

15 what is considered surgery. I'm not cutting

16 into people with a scalpel. I am not sure what

17 procedures you're talking about.

18 Q. All right. Do you prescribe

19 medications to any of your patients?

20 A. Of course.

21 Q. Okay. And I assume the

22 medications you prescribe have all been

23 approved by the FDA, right?

24 A. Correct.

25 Q. And from time to time during your,

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1 you know, over thirty years of practice

2 there's, I assume, been lots of new medications

3 approved for treatment by the FDA, right?

4 A. Correct.

5 Q. And prior to authorizing new

6 medication from coming on the market and being

7 able to be prescribed and given to patients,

8 the FDA, you know, makes sure that that

9 medication is safe, right?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. And in order to do so, they

12 conduct various studies, you know, as the

13 medication goes through its approval process,

14 right?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. And that as part of that, the FDA

17 requires new medications be studied separately

18 on males and females to determine whether a

19 person's biological sex has an impact on the

20 response to the therapy, right?

21 MS. INGELHART: Objection. Calls for

22 speculation. You can answer.

23 THE WITNESS: Oh, okay. To tell you

24 the honest truth, I have no idea if they do that

25 or not.

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1 BY MR. BLAKE:

2 Q. So you don't know whether the FDA,

3 when they're approving a new medicine, would

4 test it in a group of people in a study that

5 was comprised only of males and then

6 nevertheless approve it for both males and

7 females?

8 A. I would hope that they would. All

9 of the medications that I use do not have any

10 sex difference in terms of the FDA

11 recommendations for dosing.

12 Q. All right. But --

13 A. So it's something that is an

14 inactive issue in my practice with the current

15 medication that we have.

16 Q. But you would hope that the FDA,

17 prior to approving medicine for -- new medicine

18 for patients, would at least look at whether or

19 not that medicine had a differing impact based

20 on someone's biological sex, right?

21 A. I hope they look at everything.

22 Q. Whether someone is transgendered

23 has no impact on their risk of cardiovascular

24 disease, right?

25 A. I'm sorry, could you repeat that

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1 question?

2 Q. Whether a person is a transgender

3 person has no impact on his or her risk of

4 stroke, right?

5 A. Well, first of all, I'm going to

6 object to you using the term transgendered. I

7 don't like to be described as a transgendered

8 person. I don't know what that means. We

9 discussed that previously. So I'd prefer if

10 you use transgender as a noun.

11 Q. Yeah. It may be the audio but I

12 intended to say transgender person.

13 A. Okay.

14 Q. So that's -- that was, I thought,

15 the term we had agreed on so --

16 A. Okay.

17 Q. -- I'm not trying to be, you know,

18 disrespectful, certainly not. So let me

19 rephrase it or try again.

20 Whether a person is a transgender

21 person has no impact on their risk of a stroke,

22 right?

23 A. I don't believe that it does.

24 Q. And whether a person is a

25 transgender person has no impact on their risk

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1 of cardiovascular disease, right?

2 A. Well, I don't know you can say --

3 that's an awfully broad statement. Okay.

4 People who are transgender, a high percentage

5 of them are very economically disadvantaged.

6 They often can't get a job. They're often

7 heavily discriminated against. They're subject

8 to excessive violence. I think they're subject

9 to all sorts of physical problems as a result

10 of those prejudices that they experience in

11 society. But in terms of whether or not they

12 are inherently more subject to one kind of

13 disease or another, I have no knowledge or

14 awareness of that.

15 Q. Right. I mean, whether a person

16 is a transgender person is irrelevant in

17 determining whether or not they have an LDL

18 particle defect, right?

19 A. Well, your LDL particle defect is

20 an inherent genetic disease. The only thing

21 that affects that in ninety-nine percent of

22 people is who their parents were.

23 Q. And you're not aware of the FDA,

24 when they approve new medications, studying

25 separately how that new medicine impacts a

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1 transgender person, right?

2 A. I have never heard of anything

3 where there was a sentence that involved the

4 FDA and transgender in the same sentence.

5 Q. And that's because there's no

6 evidence indicating that a transgender person

7 and a cisgender person have differing responses

8 to therapy, right?

9 MS. INGELHART: Objection. Calls for

10 speculation.

11 THE WITNESS: Well, I have no medical

12 knowledge of that.

13 BY MR. BLAKE:

14 Q. You agree that birth certificates

15 are a form of identification, right?

16 A. Correct.

17 Q. And you agree that birth

18 certificates reflect certain biographical data

19 existing at the time of birth, right?

20 MS. INGELHART: Objection to that

21 term biographical information. I just want to put

22 that on our disputed list or standing objection.

23 It calls for a legal conclusion.

24 THE WITNESS: I don't know what

25 biographical means.

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1 BY MR. BLAKE:

2 Q. So it includes your birth date,

3 right?

4 A. Correct.

5 Q. It includes your location of

6 birth, right?

7 A. Correct.

8 Q. It includes your parents' names on

9 there as well, right?

10 A. Correct.

11 Q. That's all biographical data, you

12 would agree, right?

13 A. So far.

14 Q. It includes your sex, right?

15 A. No, I would not agree with that.

16 Q. You would disagree that the birth

17 certificate includes your sex?

18 A. Well, my definition of sex is

19 gender identity --

20 Q. Okay.

21 A. -- and the State doesn't make much

22 of an effort to record a child's -- newborn's

23 gender identity. It's really hard for them to

24 do that on a birth.

25 Q. We'll get into that in a minute,

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1 but you do at least recognize that the birth

2 certificate contains -- or reflects a sex

3 identifier, right?

4 A. Yes, but I don't agree that it's

5 either accurate or reliable.

6 Q. Okay. At the time the birth

7 certificates are made, does the individual have

8 any control over what information is displayed?

9 A. No.

10 Q. And is it your understanding that

11 it's ODH that records the information reflected

12 on the birth certificate?

13 A. Yeah. Obviously there's an

14 interaction with the physician, but to that

15 extent, yes.

16 Q. All right. The physician -- the

17 medical provider who is there at or near the

18 time of birth records certain data, we won't

19 call it biographical data, but they record

20 certain data, right?

21 A. Right.

22 Q. And then they somehow transmit

23 that information to ODH, right?

24 A. Correct.

25 Q. And the individual whose

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1 information or data is recorded on that birth

2 certificate, they don't certify the accuracy of

3 that information, right?

4 A. Correct.

5 Q. It's ODH that certifies the

6 accuracy of the birth record, right?

7 A. Correct, but I don't think that

8 they are in a situation where they can certify

9 the accuracy.

10 Q. Right. Well --

11 A. The information is inherently

12 inaccurate.

13 Q. Right.

14 A. They're not taking pictures of the

15 baby's genitalia and recording it. They're not

16 doing a karyotype or a -- doing genetic testing

17 to be sure what the nature is of the underlying

18 sex by your term. So if there is an error, it

19 just slips through the system. There's

20 approximately, I think, about one in a thousand

21 kids are born with indeterminate genitals so I

22 don't know what ODH does in those

23 circumstances. Obviously there are

24 circumstances where there's inaccuracies.

25 Q. Do you know what ODH's process is

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1 for recording the sex of an individual born

2 with indeterminate sex characteristics?

3 A. No, I have no idea.

4 Q. Do you know what ODH's process is

5 for correcting typographical errors or

6 misidentified individuals at the time of birth?

7 A. No. All I know is that they got

8 mine wrong.

9 

10 

11 

12 

13 

14 I have no way of knowing

15 that.

16 

17

18 

19 

20 

21 

22 

23 

24 

25 

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1

2 MS. INGELHART: Objection. Calls for

3 speculation. You can answer.

4 THE WITNESS: To tell you the truth

5 at the moment, I have no idea what the policy is

6 other than they're refusing to change my gender

7 identifier.

8 BY MR. BLAKE:

9 Q. Is it your understanding that

10 ODH's, I call it a policy, but is it your

11 understanding that ODH's procedure for changing

12 the sex identifier on a birth certificate is

13 that they will do so when there was an error at

14 the time of birth?

15 MS. INGELHART: Objection. Calls for

16 a legal conclusion and some speculation. You can

17 answer.

18 THE WITNESS: I don't think it's --

19 you know, I feel that from my perspective, sex and

20 gender are the same thing. I don't think I should

21 be in a position of having to prove what my gender

22 identity is to the Ohio Department of Health.

23 BY MR. BLAKE:

24 Q. Your opinion that sex and gender

25 are the same thing, is that based on any

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1 medical or scientific information?

2 MS. INGELHART: Objection. Calls for

3 expert testimony.

4 THE WITNESS: Look, I'm not -- as we

5 talked about before, I am not an expert in this

6 field. I have had no training in this field. All

7 I know is that from my belief, gender is the same

8 thing as sex for this purpose. I don't see why

9 the State should be refusing to honor my request

10 to give me a corrected document.

11 BY MR. BLAKE:

12 Q. So setting aside a chromosomal

13 abnormality, if I told you someone had XX

14 chromosomes, that would indicate a biological

15 sex as female, right?

16 MS. INGELHART: Objection. Expert

17 testimony. You can answer.

18 THE WITNESS: I'm not sure.

19 BY MR. BLAKE:

20 Q. You don't know whether someone

21 with XX chromosomes in a normal circumstance

22 would be a biological female?

23 A. No, I -- I'm sorry, maybe I didn't

24 hear your question correctly. The answer to

25 that is yes.

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1 Q. And if they were born with XX

2 chromosomes, you would have no idea whether or

3 not that person was a transgender individual,

4 right?

5 A. I didn't hear that question

6 clearly.

7 Q. Yeah. So whether or not someone

8 has XX chromosomes has no bearing on whether

9 that individual is a transgender individual,

10 right?

11 A. XX? Let's see.

12 MS. INGELHART: Inserting an

13 objection. Calls for expert testimony. You can

14 answer.

15 THE WITNESS: I don't -- I don't know

16 how currently looking at someone's karyotype is

17 going to allow somebody to understand whether or

18 not an individual is transgender.

19 BY MR. BLAKE:

20 Q. Okay. And if a person has a

21 biological sex as female and absent any

22 indeterminate sex characteristics or other

23 abnormalities, that individual's external

24 genitalia at birth would also indicate a

25 biological sex of female, right?

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1 MS. INGELHART: Objection. Expert

2 testimony. You can answer.

3 THE WITNESS: I really don't know

4 what you mean by biological sex.

5 BY MR. BLAKE:

6 Q. Well, I mean, we've just talked

7 about that an XX -- a person with an XX

8 chromosome, right, absent any chromosomal

9 abnormality, they would -- they would be born a

10 female, right?

11 A. Most usually, but in this -- I'm

12 not an expert in that area.

13 Q. Right. I get it. And we're

14 excluding the things where people have, you

15 know, intersex conditions or their karyotype is

16 one of the nonregular karyotypes, you know, one

17 of the one and a thousand people that you

18 referenced earlier, okay?

19 A. Okay. But, again, my definition

20 for sex is gender identity, and it appears that

21 your definition for sex is what their genitals

22 look like at birth --

23 Q. And --

24 A. -- and I would argue that that's

25 something that's open to a lot of error.

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1 Q. Understood. So what I -- what my

2 question was, someone who has XX chromosomes,

3 all right, absent any other abnormalities,

4 their external genitalia at birth would

5 indicate -- also indicate a biological sex of

6 female, right?

7 MS. INGELHART: Objection. Expert

8 testimony. You can answer.

9 THE WITNESS: Again, you're asking me

10 for -- literally to be an expert about the

11 genitalia of young infants, and I am not.

12 BY MR. BLAKE:

13 Q. So you had four years of medical

14 training, I assume four years of residency, two

15 years of a fellowship, and then one year of

16 like a post-doctorate fellowship and your

17 testimony is that you don't know whether a

18 normal human baby born with XX chromosomes

19 would also have external genitalia that conform

20 to a female?

21 MS. INGELHART: Objection. Misstates

22 prior testimony. Asked and answered. You've

23 really been beating this over and over again, but

24 you can answer.

25 THE WITNESS: Okay. I had six weeks

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1 of pediatrics when I was a medical student

2 approximately fifty years ago, okay, so for you to

3 ask me to be an expert in inspecting the genitalia

4 of newborns to be sure that I'm not making an

5 error, well, I don't look at newborns. I haven't

6 looked at newborns for fifty years, other than my

7 two children. But being able to reliably discern

8 people's genitalia reliably, I don't think I'd put

9 myself in a professional position of doing that.

10 BY MR. BLAKE:

11 Q. Do you think that the medical

12 providers, the obstetricians, the pediatricians

13 who record the information, medical and

14 otherwise, about a child at or near the time of

15 birth, do you think they have the expertise and

16 capability to record that information?

17 MS. INGELHART: Objection. Calls for

18 speculation and expert testimony. You can answer.

19 THE WITNESS: Again, my definition of

20 sex is gender identity. I don't know currently

21 how obstetricians and gynecologists are able to

22 assess the gender identity of children when

23 they're just born. I don't know how this is done.

24 BY MR. BLAKE:

25 Q. You don't have any idea how a

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1 doctor --

2 A. I'm sure they take -- I'm sure

3 they take a cursory look at the an individual's

4 genitalia and they make a rapid rough

5 assessment, but I don't see how they can assess

6 individual's gender identity.

7 Q. Yeah, you're not aware of any

8 tests where a newborn infant could be

9 identified as a transgender individual, right?

10 A. Listen, I'm not trying to be

11 difficult, but as I said before, I'm 

12 I'm not a

13 gynecologist or obstetrician. You're asking me

14 medical questions that are outside of my scope

15 of practice.

16 Q. I get that it's outside of your

17 scope of practice. What I guess I'm struggling

18 with is whether or not you think that

19 identifying a boy or a girl is outside the

20 scope of your just experience as a human being.

21 Is that also your testimony?

22 A. No. I think that routinely that

23 people make rapid cursory assessments, but I

24 don't think they're accurate.

25 Q. I mean, your understanding of what

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1 the medical provider does at or near the time

2 of birth is quickly look at the external

3 genitalia of the newborn and then records that

4 information on the appropriate forms; is that

5 your understanding?

6 A. They make a rapid assessment and

7 record what their initial impression is, but I

8 don't think that's reliable, accurate, or

9 answers what the question is, which is what is

10 their gender identity.

11 Q. Right. And the question I had

12 asked before which you didn't answer is you're

13 not aware of any tests that can be conducted at

14 or near the time of birth that would reveal a

15 newborn's gender identity, right?

16 A. Correct. I'm not aware of any

17 such thing.

18 Q. If a medical --

19 MS. INGELHART: Can we --

20 MR. BLAKE: Go ahead.

21 MS. INGELHART: Can we take a quick

22 bio break and go off the record?

23 MR. BLAKE: Yeah, that's fine.

24 MS. INGELHART: Thanks so much.

25 (Pause in proceedings.)

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1 BY MR. BLAKE:

2 Q. Do you understand how a person's

3 sex is determined from a medical perspective?

4 MS. INGELHART: Objection. Expert

5 testimony. You can answer.

6 THE WITNESS: I don't understand the

7 question. I'm not an expert in the area of sex or

8 gender identity. I don't know.

9 BY MR. BLAKE:

10 Q. All right. You understand that

11 there are males and there are females, right?

12 A. Even that I would have to beg off.

13 You're asking from me for, I presume, a

14 scientific definition. I'm not aware of one.

15 That field is not something I am trained in and

16 so I don't think I can answer.

17 Q. So you don't know, despite your

18 years and years of medical training and decades

19 of practice in the field of medicine, whether

20 or not it's important to identify a person's

21 biological sex?

22 A. And, again, as I said, I'm an

23 We don't look at

24 people's gender as being a major impact on

25 diagnosis or treatment and it's not -- I don't

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1 sit there and confirm with patients in the

2 office are you truly male or female. We don't

3 do any specific testing to confirm people's

4 karyotype. None of this is relevant to my

5 practice. I haven't had training in pediatrics

6 for over fifty years, and this is not something

7 that comes up in the course of my practice so

8 why should I be knowledgeable about that?

9 Q. What about as a general matter, do

10 you have any idea how sex is identified in an

11 individual?

12 A. Well, again, this is -- that's not

13 my area of expertise. I've had enough battles

14 of my own about sex and gender. I don't think

15 about it. I haven't thought about it in years.

16 I don't have any specific opinions, okay, I

17 just want a corrected birth certificate for me.

18 Q. You mentioned you were married

19 before, right?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. Did you have kids?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. Do you know the sex of your

24 children?

25 A. Yes.

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1 Q. And at what time did you have an

2 understanding of the sex of your children?

3 A. When they were born.

4 Q. And how did you make that

5 determination?

6 A. Myself visually.

7 Q. Based upon what criteria?

8 A. Well, now you're -- I'm going to

9 beg off answering that. Now you're asking me

10 to start elaborating on the genitalia of my

11 children and I find that offensive.

12 Q. But without disclosing the

13 genitalia -- what the genitalia of your

14 children was, that's the criteria you used to

15 identify their sex at birth, right?

16 A. Correct.

17 Q. And that information was either

18 confirmed by the medical provider or related to

19 the medical provider who in any event

20 transmitted that information I assume to

21 whatever Department of Health equivalent they

22 had in whatever state your children were born,

23 right?

24 A. I don't know how they confirmed

25 it. 

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1 

2 It was a roughshod assessment of

3 what their gender and sex was. I don't -- from

4 my personal belief, I don't think that's

5 particularly reliable.

6 Q. Okay. And, you know, regardless

7 of your perception of the reliability of the

8 doctor's visual inspection of your child to

9 determine their sex, that's your understanding

10 of the process, right?

11 A. Yeah, but are you aware just how

12 many errors are made in the medical profession

13 every day that cause death? I mean, the number

14 of medical errors our population is subject to

15 is enormous. I have no confidence, okay, about

16 what you're asking me about.

17 Q. Well --

18 A. It's a rough-hand assessment,

19 

20 

21 Q. Right. But do you believe that

22 your children have had their sex misidentified

23 on their birth records?

24 A. Personally, no.

25 Q. Okay.

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1 A. Does that mean that it could have

2 been misidentified? Sure.

3 Q. But you don't have any evidence of

4 that, right?

5 A. No. Well, I have no reason to go

6 searching for it.

7 Q. Okay. And when you were born, you

8 were identified as a male, correct?

9 A. Correct.

10 Q. And do you have any reason to

11 believe that that identification occurred under

12 circumstances any different than what you're

13 familiar with with your own children?

14 A. No.

15 

16

17 MS. INGELHART: Objection. Calls for

18 expert testimony, speculation.

19 BY MR. BLAKE:

20 Q. Go ahead.

21 A. I honestly can't answer you. I

22 was there, but I wasn't in any condition to

23 make a personal assessment.

24 

25

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1

2 MS. INGELHART: Objection. Calls for

3 expert testimony.

4 THE WITNESS: No. Again, why or

5 would I? Again, except that I was there, they

6 didn't have a camera. I have no way of knowing.

7 BY MR. BLAKE:

8 Q. Do you contend it was inaccurate

9 for the medical provider to record your sex as

10 male at the time of your birth?

11 A. Again, I believe you're asking me

12 the same question essentially over and over

13 again. The -- I'm sure he did his best, but,

14 again, there were no scientific methods used to

15 determine what my actual gender identity was;

16 and as to the accuracy of his assessment, I was

17 there but not in a condition to make my own

18 opinion.

19 Q. Do you believe the doctor -- the

20 medical provider should have reported your sex

21 at birth as female?

22 A. I don't think he should have

23 reported it at all. I personally don't see

24 what the slightest real use of the State of

25 Ohio is for recording a sex or gender identity

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1 at birth. I don't understand what the value of

2 it is.

3 Q. Do you have an understanding why

4 the Department of Health records an

5 individual's sex at birth?

6 MS. INGELHART: Objection. Calls for

7 speculation.

8 THE WITNESS: I could speculate, but,

9 again, I have no personal knowledge of why they do

10 it.

11 BY MR. BLAKE:

12 Q. All right. Are you familiar with

13 infant growth charts?

14 A. Vaguely from fifty years ago.

15 Again, I'm not a pediatrician.

16 Q. Yeah. I'm not asking for any

17 expertise about you being a pediatrician. I'm

18 just wondering whether or not as a parent you

19 were ever shown or provided information related

20 to a childhood growth chart?

21 A. Sure, I looked at the growth

22 charts for my children.

23 Q. And you knew that your child based

24 on their sex was, you know, in such and such

25 percentile for height and weight and head

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1 circumference and things like that, right?

2 A. Again, I presumed that they were

3 within normal limits at the time.

4 Q. I guess that wasn't my question.

5 I apologize if you interpreted my question as

6 trying to delve into whether or not your

7 children were on a particular percentile or

8 anything like that. I was just simply asking

9 whether or not you were generally familiar with

10 that's how children are tracked for their

11 growth, right?

12 A. Yeah, I'm aware that's one of the

13 things that's done.

14 Q. And that they have this growth

15 chart for both males and females, right?

16 A. Sure.

17 Q. And a child that weighs fifteen

18 pounds at, you know, four months is going to be

19 in a different percentile, you know, based on

20 whether they're a male or a female, right?

21 A. We made an assumption that my

22 children were of the gender identity/sex,

23 however you want to argue it, that they

24 appeared to be on face value and they both fit

25 within the growth charts of normal.

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1 Q. Right. But you recognize there's

2 different growth charts for males and females,

3 right?

4 A. Correct.

5 Q. And do you know that -- do you

6 know the organization or entity that publishes

7 the information that goes into creating those

8 growth charts?

9 A. No idea.

10 Q. All right. Would it surprise you

11 if I told you it was the CDC or that's one of

12 the entities?

13 A. I have no idea.

14 Q. Do you know what the CDC is?

15 A. Sure.

16 Q. Okay. The Center for Disease

17 Control, right?

18 A. I believe that's correct.

19 Q. Just to make sure we're talking

20 about the same thing. And they compile a bunch

21 of information related to illnesses and vital

22 statistics and things of that nature, right?

23 A. Correct.

24 Q. All right. And that the Ohio

25 Department of Health, ODH, provides information

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1 about the children that are born in its state

2 to the CDC, are you aware of that?

3 A. No.

4 Q. Okay. Well, would that surprise

5 you if that's where the CDC gets its

6 information, from the various Departments of

7 Health around the country?

8 A. I'm not sure what would surprise

9 me. I'm not sure what disease they're trying

10 to control with getting that kind of

11 information.

12 Q. They're not trying to control a

13 disease. They're merely assembling data to

14 maintain the growth charts, you know, in the

15 nation, right?

16 A. Their mandate is to be the Center

17 for Disease Control. What disease is it that

18 they're worried about that they're tracking

19 growth charts?

20 Q. So do you think that it's not

21 valuable information for a parent or a medical

22 provider to know whether a child falls within a

23 normal range of growth for height, weight, head

24 circumference? Is that your testimony?

25 A. Again, I have -- I'm curious

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1 because that's outside of what I perceive their

2 mandate to be, and I have no idea of what

3 disease they're trying to control by looking at

4 growth charts.

5 Q. Okay. Did you find -- go ahead.

6 A. I'm not an expert in epidemiology

7 so I have no idea what they're doing.

8 Q. Okay. Did you find the

9 information about your own children, their

10 growth information, did you find that

11 information useful as a parent?

12 A. Not particularly.

13 Q. Would you have been concerned if

14 your child was, you know, below the first

15 percentile or above the ninety-ninth percentile

16 for things like height, weight, or head

17 circumference?

18 A. I'm sure I would, but they

19 weren't.

20 Q. And so you can see the value of

21 those growth charts then for children who are

22 born which fall outside, you know, the normal

23 range of the growth chart, right?

24 A. I guess so. Again, I'm not a

25 pediatrician so I'm not sure whether or not

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1 those charts are more reliable than just a

2 physical inspection of a child. I have no

3 idea.

4 Q. All right. So just going back to

5 your statement about why the State of Ohio is

6 collecting information about a person's birth

7 sex, you would agree that if the State didn't

8 collect that information and report that

9 information, there would be no way to compile

10 the data which forms the basis for those

11 percentile charts, right?

12 MS. INGELHART: Objection. Calls for

13 speculation, expert testimony. You can answer.

14 THE WITNESS: Again, I don't know why

15 they're collecting this data. I don't know what

16 its use is. I don't know why the Center for

17 Disease Control would be interested in this.

18 Okay. You're asking me to speculate about an

19 entire bunch of activity that I have no awareness

20 or knowledge of.

21 BY MR. BLAKE:

22 Q. Well, wait a minute. Look, I

23 mean, let's try to be -- let's try to be

24 consistent and I think honest here. You just

25 testified that you would find the information

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1 on the growth charts useful if your child fell

2 outside of the normal ranges, right?

3 A. No. No, I didn't say that.

4 Q. Okay. What did you testify then

5 because that's what I -- that's what I

6 recollect.

7 MS. INGELHART: Object to form.

8 THE WITNESS: No awareness that

9 looking at a growth chart as opposed to the visual

10 assessment by a trained pediatrician, which of

11 them is more useful. I didn't say that the growth

12 chart was more of greater benefit.

13 BY MR. BLAKE:

14 Q. So when you prescribe treatments

15 or therapies for your patients, do you ever

16 rely on historical data regarding the

17 effectiveness of such treatment?

18 A. I'm not sure how to answer that

19 because I've been in practice doing what I do

20 for forty years so most of what I rely on is my

21 own personal experience in diagnosing or

22 treating a disease inside my scope of practice.

23 So there's relatively little that I'm relying

24 on other people's opinions about what to do.

25 Q. So you don't ever rely on studies

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1 or reports which reflect outcomes or expected

2 outcomes or anything of that nature?

3 A. When you're using the term

4 relying, you're meaning the physician is making

5 their entire judgment about how to diagnose and

6 treat off of other -- outside data. I hope you

7 don't go to a doctor like that.

8 Q. Yeah, I mean, that's -- you're

9 obviously mischaracterizing what I said.

10 Reliance -- I didn't say solely rely. I said

11 whether or not you ever look at such studies to

12 help inform your decision on how to treat a

13 patient or prescribe a medicine or proceed with

14 a therapy, right?

15 A. I misunderstood your question.

16 I'm sorry.

17 Q. Okay. So --

18 A. Actually, I do look at -- I read

19 the literature constantly.

20 Q. Do you ever consider whether or

21 not someone is obese in your practice when you

22 look at treatment therapies or options or

23 diagnosing a disease?

24 A. We look at it, but it's actually a

25 relatively minor risk factor for cardiovascular

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1 disease. It's much weaker than -- the most

2 strongest indicator is your LDL particle limit.

3 Q. When you make the determination

4 about someone's obesity level, doesn't that in

5 part depend upon whether they're a male or

6 female?

7 A. No.

8 Q. No? So someone's body mass index,

9 right, if that's a term I can use, doesn't that

10 tell you whether or not they're obese?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. And doesn't the body mass index

13 for a female -- what is the body mass index for

14 a female, what qualifies them as obese?

15 A. Usually the number thirty is used.

16 Q. And then what about for males?

17 A. I believe they use the same

18 number.

19 Q. Okay. So you think the BMI level

20 is the same for male or female?

21 A. I could be wrong about that. As

22 far as I know in our office we're using the

23 same number for body mass index and it's an

24 objective number, it's not based on a table.

25 Q. And do you think that the body

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1 mass index -- the healthy body mass index is

2 the same regardless of whether you're a male or

3 a female?

4 A. I wouldn't use the term healthy

5 because you're trying to describe -- no,

6 seriously, you're trying to describe health as

7 being that if their body mass index is below a

8 certain number, then they're healthy. That's

9 not true.

10 Q. Well, what term would you use?

11 Would you use the term normal?

12 A. Well, no, I'd say their weight is

13 below their recommended body mass index; but,

14 again, as I said before, it's a very weak part

15 of assessing cardiovascular risk.

16 Q. And is the recommended body mass

17 index the same for males and females?

18 A. As far as I know, the number

19 thirty is used for both.

20 Q. So anything below thirty, that's

21 the recommended level male or female; is that

22 your testimony?

23 A. It's a goal, okay.

24 Q. And then anything above thirty,

25 male or female, obese; is that your testimony?

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1 A. Up to a point. It's usually

2 divided up into mild, moderate, and severe.

3 The number thirty is usually used as a cutoff.

4 Q. Okay. Do you know whether average

5 birth weights for males and females are the

6 same?

7 MS. INGELHART: Objection. Calls for

8 expert testimony, speculation. You can answer.

9 THE WITNESS: It's a short answer. I

10 have no idea.

11 BY MR. BLAKE:

12 Q. You have no idea. So if they're

13 not the same, all right, assuming that the

14 average male and the average female when born

15 are different weights, would you agree that

16 it's important to track those birth weights and

17 childhood weights separately in order to

18 determine whether or not such children are

19 falling out of the normal or healthy range?

20 MS. INGELHART: Objection. Calls for

21 speculation, hypothetical. You can answer.

22 THE WITNESS: Again, I'm not a

23 pediatrician. You're asking me to have an opinion

24 about something I have no knowledge of.

25 BY MR. BLAKE:

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1 Q. All right. So you have no opinion

2 one way or the other whether it's important to

3 track the sex of a child when born as part of

4 tracking their early childhood development?

5 A. Let me answer this this way.

6 There's a widespread belief that watching an

7 individual's cholesterol and diet is important

8 for preventing cardiovascular disease. In

9 fact, that's not true. What's really important

10 is controlling their particle level. So

11 there's this widespread belief that you're

12 going to provide better care by worrying about

13 somebody's cholesterol and their diet, and I

14 believe that's not true.

15 So how do I know that following a

16 child's growth chart actually, in reality,

17 makes a material difference in their care? I

18 have no way of knowing that. You're asking me

19 to speculate as if I'm some knowledgeable

20 pediatrician. If there's data to suggest if

21 you follow their growth chart that you do a

22 better job, I don't know that that's true. I

23 have no idea.

24 Q. Yeah, that's not what I'm asking

25 you. Did you have -- by the way, how many

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1 children did you have?

2 A. Two.

3 Q. And do you have a boy and a girl,

4 a girl and a boy, two girls, two boys?

5 A. Boy and a girl.

6 Q. And do you recall whether or not

7 they had the same growth chart?

8 A. No.

9 Q. Okay. Would it surprise you if

10 there were different growth charts for a boy

11 and a girl?

12 A. I don't remember anything about

13 their growth charts.

14 Q. I asked you whether it would

15 surprise you if there was different growth

16 charts for boys and girls?

17 A. No, it wouldn't surprise me.

18 Q. And would it surprise you if boys

19 and girls grew at different rates?

20 A. I presume they do.

21 Q. Right. Boys are taller,

22 generally, right?

23 A. Generally, but there are a lot of

24 tall girls.

25 Q. There are a lot of tall girls, and

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1 there's also a period of time in childhood

2 development where girls actually tend to be a

3 little taller than boys, right?

4 MS. INGELHART: Objection. This

5 calls for expert testimony. She's not a

6 pediatrician. She's testified to this repeatedly.

7 We keep beating this question down. You ask it in

8 various ways, but it's the same question over and

9 over again. She continues to tell you she's not

10 an expert in this field. You can answer.

11 MR. BLAKE: Got it. I would

12 appreciate if you just limit the speaking

13 objections. I'm not asking for expert testimony.

14 I'll give you a standing objection to anything

15 that calls for expert testimony, and I think the

16 witness has testified she's not an expert. You

17 know, we can have a dispute about whether or not

18 we think knowing that boys and girls are different

19 sizes requires expert testimony or if that's

20 something that's generally observable to the lay

21 witness, particularly a parent who's had both a

22 boy and a girl, but, you know, I don't think this

23 is the proper form for that.

24 THE WITNESS: I'm sixty-eight years

25 old, okay. You're talking about things with my

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1 children that were more than fifty years ago. I

2 don't remember those things.

3 BY MR. BLAKE:

4 Q. Okay. Do you understand how a

5 person's gender identity is determined?

6 A. No.

7 Q. What is your understanding of a

8 person's gender identity?

9 A. It's their -- the way it's often

10 phrased is deep set internal belief about

11 whether or not they are male or female in their

12 essence, the way in which they need to express

13 themselves.

14 Q. Does that have anything to do with

15 what a person's karyotype is?

16 A. I have no idea.

17 Q. If a physician found you

18 unconscious -- and not you individually but

19 just like found an individual unconscious --

20 let me start again.

21 If a physician found someone

22 unconscious on the street, there aren't any

23 tests that that physician could perform to

24 determine whether or not that person was

25 transgender, right?

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1 A. That's an incredibly vague

2 question because you're lumping people who are

3 transgender who are at widely ends of a

4 spectrum of physical transitions. You could be

5 talking about someone who is just beginning the

6 process who hasn't taken any physical steps to

7 change their appearance all the way through to

8 someone who is totally physically transitioned,

9 has had gender confirmation surgery, has breast

10 implants. For that person, an average

11 gynecologist is going to identify the

12 individual as female. But to the person who is

13 just starting, well, there's nothing really to

14 look at. So you're asking me to talk about an

15 infinite spectrum of different people so I

16 don't know how to answer that.

17 Q. You're talking about a physician

18 who would find someone, this hypothetical

19 unconscious person, and identify whether or not

20 they were transgender based on looking at their

21 external genitalia, right?

22 A. Their breast, their hair, their

23 clothing, their makeup, how they're dressed.

24 Q. That just tells you what their

25 outward physical appearance is, that doesn't

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1 say anything about whether or not they're a

2 transgender individual, right?

3 A. Isn't that how we normally

4 identify people on the street anyway, we look

5 at how they're dressed and what their hairstyle

6 looks like, their makeup, and whether or not

7 they're carrying a purse. That's how we assess

8 whether they're male or female. We don't ask

9 them to lift their skirt up and show us their

10 genitals. How do we know otherwise? I'm not

11 sure what your point is.

12 Q. Could that same physician identify

13 a person's sex based on their genitals?

14 A. I don't know. What do you mean by

15 sex?

16 Q. Well, we were talking about how

17 biological sex is recognized in the medical

18 field and you said you didn't know how that was

19 done, right?

20 A. Not -- not reliably. And, again,

21 my definition of sex is gender identity, yours

22 isn't, okay. So to identify somebody's gender

23 identity, I don't know that there's a test for

24 that.

25 Q. And that's my question, right,

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1 that you couldn't -- you couldn't come upon an

2 unconscious person and determine through any

3 sort of test or inspection, visual or

4 otherwise, what their gender identity is,

5 right?

6 A. But isn't their gender identity

7 something inside their head? So how are you

8 going to identify something that's inside their

9 head? You don't have a test for that. You

10 don't have a helmet that we can put on their

11 head and say, oh, you're a transgender or

12 you're not.

13 Q. And gender identity is not

14 correlated with any specific biological

15 response, right?

16 A. Well, look, again, I'm not an

17 expert, but from my cursory reading of the

18 literature, there have been various studies

19 done to suggest that there are biological

20 correlates of individuals who are transgender.

21 There are abnormal brain wave

22 studies. I believe I read somewhere that the

23 incidents of left-handedness in transgender

24 people is approximately forty percent and in

25 the population at large is about ten percent.

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1 So there is strong evidence that there is a

2 link between people's brains and their gender

3 identity because that kind of studies or work

4 is in its infancy. And, again, I'm definitely

5 not an expert about those kinds of studies.

6 Q. Right. You're not a molecular

7 geneticist, right?

8 A. No way.

9 Q. And you don't have any special

10 expertise in the neurology -- field of

11 neurology, right?

12 A. No, nothing like that.

13 Q. And this brain study you're

14 referring to, is that the MRI brain study?

15 A. Yeah. I think there are others,

16 but, again, I'm not -- I'm just aware that

17 there are such studies, but I'm not -- I

18 couldn't tell you the details of how they were

19 done or what the ultimate results were of their

20 research, I just know that there have been such

21 studies.

22 Q. You haven't looked at any

23 particulars about the study and the number of

24 individuals who are associated with the study,

25 right?

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1 A. No, nothing like that.

2 Q. And you haven't conducted an

3 analysis of the impact of selection bias on

4 that study, right?

5 A. Not in the slightest.

6 Q. You don't know what

7 neuroplasticity is?

8 A. No.

9 Q. You don't know whether or not that

10 study controlled for neuroplasticity?

11 A. Never heard of it.

12 Q. Sex, as I've been referring to

13 related to the karyotype of XX and XY, that is

14 correlated with a biological response, right?

15 A. I don't know how to answer that.

16 That's really kind of vague. I'm not sure I

17 know what you're referring to.

18 Q. Okay. You don't know whether or

19 not someone's sex at birth as identified by

20 their external genitalia and as related in

21 normal circumstances to their karyotype,

22 whether that has any biological response?

23 A. I'm sorry, what --

24 MS. INGELHART: Objection. Vague.

25 You can answer.

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1 THE WITNESS: What do you mean by

2 biological response?

3 BY MR. BLAKE:

4 Q. Yeah. So outcomes related to

5 medical treatments or growth patterns or

6 hormone levels, anything of that nature, you're

7 not aware?

8 A. No, I am not aware. I have no

9 idea.

10 MR. BLAKE: Can we take a quick

11 break?

12 MS. INGELHART: Yes.

13 MR. BLAKE: Thanks.

14 (Pause in proceedings.)

15 BY MR. BLAKE:

16 Q. All right. Do you hold yourself

17 out as a transgender individual to the public?

18 A. No.

19 Q. Are you part of any groups

20 associated with transgender individuals?

21 A. No. I want to qualify that. 

22 

23 

24

25 Q. What is 

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1 A. I believe it's 

2 nder

3

4 Q. And how does one obtain membership

5 to that organization?

6 A. Apply online.

7 Q. Is there like a fee?

8 A. Yeah. It wasn't huge.

9 Q. And do you have to have any

10 special medical or other credentials to join?

11 A. I don't believe so.

12 Q. So any individual who's interested

13 in transgender issues can go online, fill out

14 some information, and pay a fee and join?

15 A. They have a newsletter that they

16 send out.

17 Q. They have a newsletter?

18 A. Yes. Pretty much anybody can

19 join.

20 Q. Okay.

21 A. But I do not belong to any

22 organizations.

23 Q. How many people have you told that

24 you are transgender?

25 A. Good grief. Probably five or ten

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1 that I've actually told outright.

2 Q. Is that primarily family and

3 friends?

4 A. Correct. A few people at

5 back in when I

6 was transitioning.

7 Q. And is that when you -- where you

8 underwent some degree of medical treatment to

9 transition from male to female?

10 A. Correct.

11 Q. Those were just primarily medical

12 providers?

13 A. Well, I was transitioning so I was

14 starting to change my outward gender

15 appearance, and it was appropriate for me to go

16 and talk to the administration about what was

17 happening so I certainly had to reveal to them

18 the nature of the situation.

19 Q. Oh, this is where you worked?

20 This is the facility where you worked?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. I understand. I was thinking that

23 this is where you actually were having the

24 transition occur.

25 A. Well --

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1 MS. INGELHART: Objection. Vague.

2 THE WITNESS: Let me help you. I had

3 a private office. I saw patients in my private

4 office. When they needed advanced care, the

5 hospital that I was using for their cursory care

6 was this hospital so I had admitting privileges

7 and privileges to use their 

8 laboratory. I had a staff

9 appointment and so I wasn't employed by them, I

10 was self-employed, but, again, I'm using their

11 facilities. It was necessary for me to divulge to

12 them what was happening to me.

13 BY MR. BLAKE:

14 Q. Okay. How many people have found

15 out that you are a transgender individual due

16 to your birth certificate?

17 A. I have no idea.

18 Q. Do you think it's --

19 A. Honestly.

20 Q. -- five, ten, fifteen?

21 A. Well, here's the problem. I

22 relocated to this hospital in My

23 status as a transgender individual was

24 disclosed against my knowledge by the human

25 resources director at the hospital who decided

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1 to have a town hall meeting with both the 

2 staff and the card -- coronary care unit

3 staff and divulge my status as a transgender

4 individual. She had access to my -- all of the

5 documents that had been submitted to the

6 hospital for my application for staff

7 privileges. I don't know whether or not she

8 was looking at my birth certificate or some

9 other document, but basically she outed me to

10 the entire hospital.

11 Q. Did you have to hand over --

12 A. So --

13 Q. Go ahead.

14 A. I'm sorry.

15 Q. Sorry. If you're not finished,

16 please continue.

17 A. That's probably enough

18 explanation.

19 Q. So you provided your birth

20 certificate to the HR person at the new

21 hospital in ?

22 A. As far as I recall.

23 Q. You don't -- you don't know for

24 certain that you actually had to turn over your

25 birth certificate?

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1 A. You're asking me to recall what

2 was in a packet five years -- well, four and a

3 half years ago, as to exactly what document was

4 in it, okay, and I don't recall. I don't know

5 if it had the birth certificate, what was all

6 in it, but they knew.

7 Q. Well, your claim is based on

8 part -- the claims against ODH, that you were

9 forced to disclose your birth certificate in

10 circumstances like receiving certain

11 identification and employment, and so it's

12 critical for ODH to understand whether or not

13 you have actually been required to turn over

14 your birth certificate in those contexts. And

15 if I understand, your testimony right now is

16 that you do not recall whether or not you were

17 required to disclose your birth certificate as

18 part of your employment onboarding with the

19 hospital in ; is that accurate?

20 A. That's accurate. I can tell you,

21 though, that I was required to provide my birth

22 certificate when I was trying to get my Social

23 Security Administration identifier changed.

24 Q. Yeah, we'll get to the Social

25 Security Administration circumstance here in a

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1 minute. I'm just trying to tie up the loose

2 ends on your employment with .

3 So do you recall prior to turning

4 in your information to HR at the 

5 Hospital whether you had to obtain a certified

6 copy of your birth certificate.

7 A. No, I don't recall.

8 Q. Do you recall specifically an

9 instance where you had to produce your birth

10 certificate and show it to somebody?

11 A. Again, the only specific instance

12 that I can recall where I had to do that was

13 with the Social Security Administration.

14 Q. Okay. And you don't recall any

15 other time prior to -- employment at

16 having to show your birth certificate

17 to any other employer, do you?

18 A. No.

19 Q. Has your disclosure of your birth

20 certificate ever led to bodily harm?

21 A. No.

22 Q. Here in Columbus we have something

23 called the Pride Festival, and among other

24 things the Pride Festival celebrates

25 transgender individuals and equality for those

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1 individuals. Do you have a similar festival in

2 ?

3 A. No.

4 Q. Have you ever taken part in a

5 festival like the Pride Festival?

6 A. Not to my knowledge. There could

7 be one and I don't know about it, but not to my

8 knowledge.

9 Q. Are you humiliated by your status

10 as a transgender person?

11 A. That's -- to me, that's a vague

12 question. Can you kind of pin it down a little

13 better as to --

14 Q. Sure.

15 A. You mean like in general do I feel

16 humiliated or are there specific circumstances

17 where I've been humiliated?

18 Q. Yes. Do you believe or do you

19 feel that the -- well, let's take a step back.

20 You are a transgender individual,

21 correct?

22 A. Correct.

23 Q. Does that fact humiliate you?

24 MS. INGELHART: Objection. Vague.

25 You can answer.

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1 THE WITNESS: If you mean on an

2 everyday basis do I get up in the morning and say

3 I'm transgender and I feel humiliated, no.

4 BY MR. BLAKE:

5 Q. The fact that you're a transgender

6 individual does not ashame you, correct?

7 A. Correct.

8 Q. It's fair to say you're proud of

9 your status as a transgender individual, right?

10 A. I'm not sure that I would say that

11 I'm proud of it. It's something that I've

12 learned to live with.

13 Q. You claim that the Ohio Department

14 of Health discriminates against transgender

15 individuals because they are not permitted to

16 change the sex identifier on their birth

17 certificate, right?

18 A. I'm sorry, I didn't hear your

19 whole question. Would you please repeat it?

20 Q. Yeah. You claim that ODH

21 discriminates against transgender individuals

22 because they are not permitted to change the

23 sex identifier on their birth certificate,

24 right?

25 A. Yes.

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1 Q. Are you aware of any laws in Ohio

2 related to birth certificates that mention

3 transgender individuals?

4 MS. INGELHART: Objection. Legal

5 conclusion. You can answer.

6 THE WITNESS: I am not a

7 knowledgeable expert of Ohio state laws.

8 BY MR. BLAKE:

9 Q. Are you aware of any laws in Ohio

10 regarding birth certificates that make any

11 mention of gender?

12 MS. INGELHART: Objection. Legal

13 conclusion. You can answer.

14 THE WITNESS: Again, I'm not a lawyer

15 so I couldn't answer that.

16 BY MR. BLAKE:

17 Q. Do you know whether or not Ohio

18 law permits anyone, regardless of gender, to

19 change their sex marker on their birth

20 certificate?

21 A. Again --

22 MS. INGELHART: Yeah, objection.

23 Legal conclusion. You can answer.

24 THE WITNESS: Same thing, I'm just

25 not an expert on Ohio state law.

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1 BY MR. BLAKE:

2 Q. But it's your understanding that

3 ODH will not change a birth certificate based

4 on a gender identity, right?

5 A. That is my understanding.

6 Q. And the law applies whether a

7 person is transgender or a cisgender, right?

8 A. Again, you're asking me to be

9 knowledgeable about all the circumstances that

10 would affect this topic in the state of Ohio

11 and I am not an attorney.

12 Q. Do you know when Ohio's laws

13 related to birth certificates were enacted?

14 A. I have no idea.

15 Q. Do you know who sponsored the

16 bill?

17 A. No.

18 Q. How the bill was received in

19 committee?

20 A. Unfortunately, no.

21 Q. Whether it was started in the

22 House or the Senate?

23 A. No idea.

24 Q. Whether there was any testimony

25 regarding the bill before any committee?

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1 A. No.

2 Q. Whether there was any evidence or

3 argument presented on the floor of either

4 chamber regarding the bill?

5 A. No, no idea.

6 Q. Are you aware of any legislative

7 purpose behind Ohio's laws related to birth

8 certificates?

9 A. No.

10 Q. Do you have any evidence at all

11 that Ohio's laws regarding the amendment of its

12 birth records were motivated by any hatred,

13 animus, or ill will toward transgender

14 individuals?

15 MR. BLAKE: Objection. Calls for a

16 legal conclusion. You can answer.

17 THE WITNESS: I can? I have no idea

18 what the motives were of the various legislatures

19 who passed that legislation. I have no idea.

20 (Thereupon, Defendants' Exhibit 8,

21 birth certificate of Jane Doe, was marked for

22 purposes of identification.)

23 BY MR. BLAKE:

24 Q. Okay. I'm going to go to Exhibit

25 8, which was previously marked. And I'll just

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1 note for the record that this Defendants'

2 Exhibit 8 is marked attorney's eyes only. Have

3 you seen this document before?

4 A. Of course.

5 Q. Okay. What is this document?

6 A. Birth certificate.

7 Q. Who's birth certificate?

8 A. For me. Mine. This is my birth

9 certificate --

10 Q. Okay.

11 A. -- in the state of Ohio.

12 Q. Do you know what a public record

13 is?

14 MS. INGELHART: Objection. Legal

15 conclusion. You can answer.

16 THE WITNESS: I don't know what the

17 technical definition is of a public record. I

18 believe it relates to whether or not it is

19 accessible by anybody in the public.

20 BY MR. BLAKE:

21 Q. And do you know whether or not

22 anyone can go to any county health department

23 in Ohio and as long as they know your name and

24 approximate birth year, they can request your

25 birth certificate?

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1 A. Apparently that's true.

2 Q. The birth certificate indicates

3 sex is male, right, in block number four?

4 MS. INGELHART: Objection. You can

5 answer.

6 THE WITNESS: Yes, that's what's

7 written there.

8 BY MR. BLAKE:

9 Q. And that information was recorded

10 by ODH based on information provided by the

11 medical provider at or near the time of your

12 birth, right?

13 A. Appears to be true.

14 Q. Do you have any evidence to

15 contradict that your sex was recorded as male

16 by ODH based on information provided by the

17 medical provider at or near the time of your

18 birth?

19 A. I'm sorry, that was very

20 confusing.

21 Q. Yeah. I'm asking whether -- you

22 said that it appears to be true, and I'm just

23 trying to understand whether or not you have

24 any evidence to contradict that your sex was

25 recorded as male by ODH based on information

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1 provided by the medical provider at or near the

2 time of birth?

3 A. I have no evidence that it was

4 anything other than what's written.

5 Q. But nonetheless, as you've

6 testified earlier, you believe that it was

7 inaccurate for the medical provider to record

8 your sex as male at the time of birth, right?

9 A. Again, because my contention is

10 that sex is one's gender identity and that's

11 something you can't determine at the time of

12 birth, and so I don't think that this was an

13 accurate inscription. I think that it

14 represents something that is not what I wrote.

15 Q. Gender identity, those words don't

16 appear on this record, right?

17 A. Correct.

18 Q. Gender doesn't appear on this

19 record, right?

20 MS. INGELHART: Objection. You can

21 answer.

22 THE WITNESS: No, it does not.

23 BY MR. BLAKE:

24 Q. Okay. And as you've testified

25 before, you're not aware of any tests that can

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1 be conducted on a person at the time of their

2 birth to determine their gender identity,

3 right?

4 A. Correct.

5 Q. And also as you testified before,

6 what the medical provider likely did in

7 determining your sex was conduct a cursory look

8 at the external genitalia, right?

9 A. Correct.

10 Q. Wrote down male, right?

11 A. Correct.

12 Q. 

13

14

15 MS. INGELHART: Objection. You can

16 answer.

17 THE WITNESS: I think that, again,

18 from my point of view, this inscription here is

19 not possible for somebody to accurate record

20 someone's gender identity at the time of birth.

21 There's no provision here for an individual to

22 change their gender marker on the document. The

23 State of Ohio is one of only two remaining states

24 that refuses to allow an individual to change

25 their birth certificate marker. I don't

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1 understand why.

2 BY MR. BLAKE:

3 Q. Well, the record of live birth

4 doesn't record a person's gender, it records a

5 person's sex, right?

6 A. I think it should be recording

7 their gender identity, it's just not -- we've

8 went over this before. I think it's not an

9 accurate recording of someone's gender

10 identity.

11 Q. Do you believe that the medical

12 provider should have reported female under the

13 sex designation on your birth record?

14 A. I think there should be an

15 opportunity for someone to change this.

16 Q. Okay. But you don't believe that

17 the medical provider should have wrote --

18 recorded female at the time of your birth,

19 right? That's not what you believe, right?

20 A. Correct.

21 Q. Okay. So based on the information

22 available to the medical provider at the time

23 of your birth, you would agree that your birth

24 record is accurate, right?

25 MS. INGELHART: Objection.

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1 Calls for a legal conclusion and

2 vague. You can answer.

3 THE WITNESS: Again, we're beating

4 around the same topic here. I don't think the

5 gender marker inscription here is accurate. Okay.

6 There should be a mechanism for dealing with

7 inaccuracies on a document of this nature and so I

8 think it was his best attempt to make an

9 assessment, but, again, I don't think it was

10 correct at the time. He had no way of knowing

11 that.

12 BY MR. BLAKE:

13 Q. Do you think the medical provider

14 inaccurately or incorrectly identified your sex

15 at the time of birth?

16 A. Based on my definition of sex,

17 which is gender identity, okay, it subsequently

18 turned out to be incorrect, but I don't think

19 he had any way of knowing that at the time.

20 Q. At the time, like I said, based on

21 the information he had, that was an accurate

22 determination of your sex at birth, correct?

23 A. I think other than the stipulation

24 about the definition of sex, I think we're

25 agreeing.

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1 Q. Okay. Are you aware of any forms

2 or records maintained by the Ohio Department of

3 Health or any other agency in Ohio that records

4 or tracks a person's gender or gender identity?

5 MS. INGELHART: Objection. Legal

6 conclusion, but you can answer.

7 THE WITNESS: I have no idea.

8 BY MR. BLAKE:

9 Q. Your gender identity is female,

10 right?

11 A. Yes.

12 

13

14 MS. INGELHART: Objection. Expert.

15 You can answer.

16 

17

18

19 BY MR. BLAKE:

20 Q. Whatever your chromosomes are,

21 they've been the same since birth, right?

22 A. Yes, we can assume that.

23 Q. You're not aware of any procedure

24 by which a person can change their chromosomes,

25 right?

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1 A. Correct.

2 Q. When did you determine that your

3 gender identity did not match your biological

4 sex?

5 A. Honestly, I'm not sure that I

6 could reliably answer that. I was aware of

7 identifying as a female when I was a young

8 child, but how early that started to occur, I

9 don't really recall.

10 MR. BLAKE: Counsel, can you please

11 hand the witness Defendants' Exhibit 5?

12 BY MR. BLAKE:

13 Q. Let me know when you have that in

14 front of you?

15 A. I have it.

16 Q. And if you turn -- what has been

17 previously marked as Defendants' Exhibit 5 are

18 plaintiffs' answers to defendants' first set of

19 interrogatories, first requests for admission,

20 and first requests for production of documents.

21 Have you seen this document before?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. All right. And if you turn to

24 page three, interrogatory number two at the

25 bottom half of the page states for each

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1 plaintiff, identify the date he or she

2 understood that his or her biological sex did

3 not align with his or her gender identity. If

4 an exact date is not determinable, please

5 identify an approximate date. Do you see that?

6 A. Yes, I do.

7 Q. And each of the plaintiffs

8 responded in turn and your response is recorded

9 on the following page, page four. At the

10 bottom it says Jane Doe came to understand

11 herself as a girl when she was eight or nine

12 years old but did not ever identify as a boy or

13 man. She did not have the terminology for

14 transgender identity until she was in her late

15 fifties. Do you see that?

16 A. I'm looking for it. Yes.

17 Q. All right. So does that refresh

18 your recollection as to when you determined

19 that your gender did not match your biological

20 sex?

21 A. Listen, again, we're talking about

22 something, you know, from over fifty years ago.

23 I don't have an exact recollection of what I

24 felt or thought. I can tell you that when I

25 was a young child, I routinely had fantasies in

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1 which I identified as a girl. These fantasies

2 began sometime after the age of five and

3 probably before the age of ten, and they've

4 been with me my whole life.

5 Q. So are you saying -- are you

6 agreeing with your statement --

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. -- in the interrogatories that it

9 was around the age of eight or nine or are you

10 disagreeing with that statement?

11 A. I believe it was around eight or

12 nine, but, you know, I can't tell you exactly

13 the year. You know, it's hard, okay.

14 Q. Okay.

15 A. But to the best of my

16 recollection, it was around eight or nine.

17 Q. Okay. Great. And since that time

18 have you identified as a female?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Since --

21 A. Well --

22 Q. Go ahead.

23 A. Leave it -- that's fine.

24 Q. All right. Since the age of eight

25 or nine have you ever presented yourself as a

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1 male to any friends, family, or the public?

2 MS. INGELHART: Objection. Vague.

3 You can answer.

4 THE WITNESS: I identified myself as

5 female in my mind, but I was not outwardly

6 presenting myself as female.

7 BY MR. BLAKE:

8 Q. So, in fact --

9 A. That didn't happen until roughly

10 about five, six years ago.

11 Q. Yeah. So, in fact, for the first

12 sixty-plus years of your life you actually

13 lived as a male, right?

14 A. Correct.

15 Q. So when you had to show your birth

16 certificate to, say, get a passport or some

17 other governmental function, your birth

18 certificate said male, your driver's license

19 said male, you presented as a male, so there

20 was no incongruence, right?

21 MS. INGELHART: Objection. Vague.

22 You can answer.

23 THE WITNESS: There was an

24 incongruence in my mind but not physically.

25 BY MR. BLAKE:

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1 Q. And not with any of your other

2 documents, right?

3 A. Correct.

4 Q. It was only within the last few

5 years, like you said, the last four or five

6 years, that you started to live your life

7 openly as a female, right?

8 A. Yes. I had a very bad childhood.

9 I had a father who was a dictatorial tyrant who

10 was physically abusive. It was totally

11 unacceptable for me to have -- let any of my

12 feelings of being female out with him. I think

13 he would have killed me. I repressed it.

14 Q. And then you got married, right?

15 A. Uh-huh.

16 Q. And you got married to a female?

17 A. Uh-huh. Yes.

18 Q. And you -- I mean, I assume she

19 believed she was marrying a male, right?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. In fact, you had kids together?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. Which is not an unusual thing for

24 males and females to do when they're married,

25 right?

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1 A. Yes.

2 Q. And I assume you were a father to

3 your children?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. They called you dad, right?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. But then many years afterwards,

8 all right, only just recently, you decided to

9 start living your life as a female, right?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. And it's only now, after you

12 decided to start living your life as a female

13 within the last three, four, or five years,

14 that you contend that your birth certificate is

15 somehow inaccurate, right?

16 A. Correct.

17 Q. When was the first time you

18 believed that your birth certificate became

19 inaccurate?

20 A. Probably about five or six years

21 ago.

22 Q. Are you familiar with the term

23 gender dysphoria?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. You understand that that's a

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1 clinical diagnosis where a person's biological

2 sex does not coincide with his or her gender

3 identity, right?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. And to the best of your

6 recollection, you received a diagnosis of

7 gender dysphoria in approximately 2013, 2014,

8 right?

9 A. Correct.

10 Q. Does that coincide with this, you

11 know, time where you first started to believe

12 that your birth certificate was inaccurate?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. At that time you were

15 approximately sixty-one or sixty-two; is that

16 right?

17 A. Approximately, yes.

18 Q. Before your diagnosis had you

19 heard of gender dysphoria?

20 A. No.

21 Q. All right. Regardless of whether

22 or not you had heard of gender dysphoria,

23 that's about the same time that you decided to

24 start living your life as a female, right?

25 A. Yes.

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1 Q. If your biological sex and gender

2 identity do not match, all right, as per your

3 diagnosis of having gender dysphoria, that

4 means that biological sex and gender identity

5 are different, right?

6 MS. INGELHART: Objection. You can

7 answer.

8 THE WITNESS: I think the answer was

9 that my gender identity has always been constant

10 and it did not match my physical appearance.

11 BY MR. BLAKE:

12 Q. All right. So --

13 A. And I -- go ahead.

14 Q. No. So you were going to say

15 something. Go ahead.

16 A. No, I think -- I think I answered

17 what you wanted.

18 Q. Okay. Well, logically, your

19 gender identity and your biological sex, if

20 they're incongruent, they can't be the same

21 thing, right?

22 MS. INGELHART: Objection. Vague.

23 You can answer.

24 THE WITNESS: I'm not sure I

25 understand that question. I believe my gender

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1 identity has been constant through my life, okay,

2 I just -- a lot of it was suppressed. When it was

3 no longer being suppressed, I had to make things

4 congruent.

5 BY MR. BLAKE:

6 Q. Yeah. I'm not disagreeing with

7 you that your gender identity has been constant

8 throughout your life.

9 A. Okay.

10 Q. What I'm trying to understand is

11 if you have this diagnosis of gender dysphoria,

12 which you agree occurs when a person's

13 biological sex does not match his or her gender

14 identity, logically --

15 MS. INGELHART: Objection --

16 BY MR. BLAKE:

17 Q. -- two things which are

18 incongruent, in this case gender identity and

19 biological sex, cannot be the same, right?

20 MS. INGELHART: Objection. Sorry.

21 Objection. It misstates prior testimony such that

22 it's in conflict with the standing objection as

23 well. You can answer.

24 THE WITNESS: I do not really know

25 how to answer your question. I repressed my

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1 gender identity for many years. I was not

2 experiencing gender dysphoria during all of that

3 time. And then at a time roughly around 2013,

4 2014, for reasons that I'm still not sure of, I

5 stopped repressing my awareness of my gender

6 identity and at that point my physical appearance

7 did not match my gender identity and I developed

8 gender dysphoria and I felt compelled to take

9 steps to alter my physical appearance.

10 BY MR. BLAKE:

11 Q. Because your biological sex and

12 your gender identity no longer coincided,

13 right?

14 A. Again, I believe that my

15 biological sex and my gender identity are

16 really the same. Okay. You're trying to make

17 a distinction that I can't agree with.

18 Q. Well, it's right there in the

19 diagnosis of gender dysphoria, it's a clinical

20 diagnosis where a person's biological sex does

21 not match his or her gender identity, you agree

22 with that, right?

23 MS. INGELHART: Objection. Asked and

24 answered. Expert testimony.

25 THE WITNESS: Again, I don't know how

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1 to answer that. Okay?

2 BY MR. BLAKE:

3 Q. What is your definition of gender

4 dysphoria?

5 A. What's the definition of gender

6 dysphoria? I don't have a definition of gender

7 dysphoria. I don't walk around with

8 definitions of terms like this in my head. I'm

9 not an expert in this field.

10 Q. All right. But you've been

11 diagnosed with that, right?

12 A. I had a specialist in who

13 said that that was what I had.

14 Q. At the time --

15 A. I'm not that specialist, okay. I

16 know what I felt, but the definition of it, I

17 wasn't schooled in it.

18 Q. At the time you received that

19 diagnosis, what was your understanding of what

20 that diagnosis meant?

21 A. That I was severely distressed

22 over the fact that I did not appear to be

23 female.

24 Q. Do you know one way or the other

25 whether a diagnosis of gender dysphoria has

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1 anything to do with incongruence between one's

2 gender identity and their biological sex?

3 A. Again, you're using a term that I

4 don't understand. Biological sex, I don't know

5 what that really means so I don't know how to

6 answer your question.

7 Q. The sex identified on your birth

8 certificate is male, right?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. Does your gender dysphoria relate

11 to your gender identity as female being

12 incongruent with the sex identified on your

13 birth certificate?

14 A. Again, I don't know this gender

15 identifier here, this is based on the gen --

16 one's genitalia, okay, not on the basis of my

17 gender identity.

18 Q. All right. Those are -- you would

19 agree that those are two different things,

20 right?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. You have a driver's license,

23 right?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. How often do you update that?

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1 A. I think it's every four years,

2 five years.

3 Q. Have you ever changed your hair

4 color?

5 A. Not in about probably six years.

6 Q. Okay. So six years ago what hair

7 color did you have on your driver's license?

8 A. Brown.

9 Q. And now I assume you've recorded

10 blond?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. Ever change your weight on your

13 driver's license?

14 A. I have not in a long time.

15 Q. But you've done that before,

16 right?

17 A. I haven't changed anything on it

18 since I moved to .

19 Q. Four years ago?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. And I assume you changed your

22 address because you got a driver's

23 license as opposed to a driver's

24 license, right?

25 A. actually.

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1 Q. driver's license, okay.

2 Very good. Have you ever been pulled over,

3 traffic stop?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. And have you ever had to show the

6 police officer your driver's license?

7 A. Of course.

8 Q. Did they ever ask for your birth

9 certificate?

10 A. No.

11 Q. Is it your understanding that the

12 driver's license needs to be current so that

13 law enforcement can do its job? Right?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. Did you ever use your birth

16 certificate to buy beer or alcohol or anything

17 like that?

18 A. No.

19 Q. What about get into a bar or a

20 club or anything like that?

21 A. Birth certificate? No.

22 Q. Have you ever used your birth

23 certificate to verify a credit card purchase at

24 the grocery store or department store?

25 A. No. My birth certificate stays at

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1 home in a drawer.

2 Q. You don't carry your birth

3 certificate with you, right?

4 A. Correct.

5 Q. The driver's license has a much

6 different purpose than a birth certificate,

7 right?

8 MS. INGELHART: Objection. Calls for

9 a legal conclusion, but you can answer.

10 THE WITNESS: I suppose so. I'm not

11 sure exactly what you're asking about it.

12 BY MR. BLAKE:

13 Q. Well, you've used your driver's

14 license for everyday identification and, you

15 know, in instances where you need to verify

16 your identity, right? Right?

17 A. I said sure. I don't think you

18 heard me.

19 Q. Sorry. I didn't hear you.

20 Whereas a birth certificate is not used for,

21 you know, everyday identification, right?

22 MS. INGELHART: Objection. Vague,

23 legal -- calls for a legal conclusion. You can

24 answer.

25 THE WITNESS: I suppose I could, but

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1 I'm not in the habit of carrying my birth

2 certificate around.

3 BY MR. BLAKE:

4 Q. Do you know anyone who does that?

5 MS. INGELHART: Objection. Calls for

6 speculation. You can answer.

7 THE WITNESS: No.

8 BY MR. BLAKE:

9 Q. I'm going to turn to Exhibit 2.

10 You've just been handed a document previously

11 marked as Defendants' Exhibit 2, which is a

12 copy of the complaint you filed in this case.

13 You recognize this document?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. I'm going to ask you to turn to

16 Paragraph 83 which is on page eighteen of this

17 document. Let me know when you're there.

18 A. I'm sorry, which page?

19 Q. Eighteen.

20 A. Okay.

21 Q. All right. And if you look at

22 Paragraph 83, it says Dr. Doe is aware of the

23 high incidents of harassment, discrimination,

24 and violence directed at transgender people.

25 She has been harassed and discriminated against

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1 as a transgender person herself in the past,

2 including verbal harassment in her workplace.

3 Do you see that?

4 A. Yes, I do.

5 Q. How many times have you been

6 verbally harassed in the workplace due to your

7 status as a transgender individual?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. No, how many times?

10 A. Oh, fairly constant. I'm not sure

11 I could put a number on it. The place where I

12 currently work, there have been a small

13 collection of physicians there who are in the

14 habit of discussing my status as a transgender

15 person behind my back to anybody who will

16 listen, and I get reports of this behavior from

17 other staff members that it's ongoing. I have

18 filed over the past four years several

19 complaints with the administration over it.

20 Q. How did those doctors, those

21 colleagues of yours find out that you were a

22 transgender individual?

23 A. Well, as I told you before, before

24 I came to the hospital the human resources

25 director decided to conduct a town meeting for

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1 both the cardiac and coronary care

2 unit to discuss with them the fact that a

3 transgender cardiologist was coming to work at

4 the hospital. So she probably informed about

5 fifty people of my status as a transgender

6 individual, and I'm sure by word of mouth these

7 physicians became aware of this.

8 Q. So that's your -- your

9 understanding is that your colleagues at the

10 hospital learned of your transgender status

11 from the human resources individual; is that

12 right?

13 A. Ultimately, yes, that was the

14 original source.

15 Q. But as you testified, you can't be

16 certain or you don't recall whether or not you

17 actually provided your birth certificate to

18 that human resources individual, right?

19 A. I didn't provide anything to the

20 human resources individual. I provided

21 documents to the hospital administration and

22 told them that my gender identity was a matter

23 of something that I did not want made public

24 within the institution, that I considered it as

25 protected health information, and they violated

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1 my confidant.

2 Q. So you provided certain

3 information to the administrative component of

4 the hospital, but you don't recall one way or

5 the other whether you provided your birth

6 certificate to them, right?

7 A. Correct. Yes.

8 Q. But you do recall discussing with

9 them certain aspects regarding your gender

10 identity, right?

11 A. When you're a physician, the paper

12 trail behind you is enormous. There was no way

13 that I could hide my past history of who I am

14 with the hospital. That would be impossible.

15 Q. Right, because that information is

16 probably reflected on things like your, you

17 know, license -- your medical license

18 information, right?

19 A. Even before that, pretty much

20 anyplace where you're applying for privileges

21 or licensing or for malpractice insurance, one

22 of the questions on the forms is have you ever

23 practiced with any other name.

24 Q. And then based on the name change,

25 it's clear to anybody who knows names that you

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1 used to have a male name and then later had a

2 female name, right?

3 A. My prior name was quite masculine.

4 Q. Right. And your current name is

5 not, right?

6 A. Correct.

7 Q. So it's your understanding that

8 the hospital was able to discern your gender

9 identity through the context of your name

10 change and maybe information included on your

11 license and other documents, right?

12 MS. INGELHART: Objection. Calls for

13 speculation. You can answer.

14 THE WITNESS: I talked to them about

15 my transgender status right up front when I

16 applied.

17 BY MR. BLAKE:

18 Q. Okay.

19 A. It was not something that was

20 hidden or it was divulged later. I would

21 rather have them know about this aspect of me

22 right up front because if they've got a problem

23 with it, I didn't want to waste my time.

24 Q. So prior to even providing them

25 any documents, you told them, hey, look, this

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1 is who I am, I am a transgender individual,

2 right?

3 A. I had applied for approximately

4 somewhere six to eight other positions, okay,

5 during the roughly six to twelve months before

6 I relocated to find another job, and in these

7 instances, as soon as they became aware of the

8 fact that I was transgender, they basically

9 terminated their interest in me, and it became

10 obvious that the best thing to do was to inform

11 people right up front so you don't waste your

12 time.

13 Q. And that's what you did in this

14 circumstance, right?

15 A. Correct.

16 Q. So having the sex identifier

17 changed on your birth certificate would not

18 have prevented the harassment that you're

19 currently experiencing in your workplace,

20 right?

21 MS. INGELHART: Objection. Calls for

22 speculation. You can answer.

23 THE WITNESS: I doubt it. I think

24 they would have harassed me anyway.

25 BY MR. BLAKE:

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1 Q. Have you taken any steps or

2 measures to pursue legal remedies against any

3 of these employers or potential employers who

4 didn't hire you based on your transgender

5 status?

6 A. You know, the reality is, is that

7 if you get involved -- as a physician, if you

8 get involved with a lawsuit with a hospital,

9 you can pretty much guarantee that you're never

10 going to get employed anywhere because

11 basically the fact that you were engaged in a

12 lawsuit with a hospital is going to be widely

13 known and they just wouldn't even talk to you.

14 So there's a huge penalty involved with

15 pursuing legal action about any of these

16 aspects of these events of discrimination. I

17 just didn't see it being worthwhile. I thought

18 it was killing -- it would kill me in terms of

19 getting further employment with somebody who

20 didn't care about it.

21 Q. But you believe you've been

22 discriminated against by these hospitals,

23 right?

24 A. I don't believe. I know.

25 Q. And you know that you've been

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1 discriminated against by your colleagues that

2 you work with now, right?

3 A. Not all of them, but some of them.

4 Q. And nevertheless, though, you've

5 taken no steps to file a lawsuit against any of

6 these hospitals or colleagues, right?

7 MS. INGELHART: Objection. Asked and

8 answered.

9 THE WITNESS: Again, I was advised

10 multiple times by attorneys that it would be

11 foolish for me to initiate a lawsuit. I was not

12 guaranteed of winning such a lawsuit, and the

13 consequences of even filing one would be enormous.

14 BY MR. BLAKE:

15 Q. So the answer to that question is

16 no, right?

17 A. Correct.

18 Q. All right. Look at Paragraph 85,

19 which is the bottom paragraph on page eighteen

20 and then carries over to page nineteen of

21 Defendants' Exhibit 2. Let me know when you're

22 there.

23 A. I'm there.

24 Q. And that says -- well, instead of

25 reading it, Paragraph 85 describes an incident

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1 when you attempted to have your sex changed on

2 your Social Security records, right?

3 A. Correct.

4 Q. And according to your allegation,

5 an employee at the Social Security

6 Administration loudly announced that you could

7 not change your sex simply based on your

8 say-so, right?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. And according to your allegations,

11 that was announced in a room containing over a

12 hundred people, right?

13 A. Correct.

14 Q. Ultimately, though, the employee

15 of the Social Security Administration was

16 incorrect about changing what was required --

17 or -- yeah, about what was required to change

18 the sex on the Social Security records, right?

19 A. She was wrong. The policy had

20 been changed. The policy was available on the

21 Social Security Administration website. I had

22 a copy of the policy and they refused to look

23 at it.

24 Q. Right. The employee's comment was

25 contrary to what the Social Security

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1 Administration's written policies were, right?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. And ultimately you were able to

4 get your sex changed in your Social Security

5 records, right?

6 A. I had to go to a different Social

7 Security office.

8 Q. But you were ultimately able to

9 get it changed, right?

10 A. Ultimately, yes, but I -- that

11 experience in that Social Security office was

12 awful. I ran out of that place in tears. I

13 sat in the parking lot in my car for about

14 forty-five minutes crying. I still -- when I

15 have to think about that experience even

16 currently I get emotionally distraught.

17 Q. When you presented your birth

18 record to the Social Security Administrator --

19 or Administration, were you in any way fearful

20 that you were going to be physically harmed by

21 that employee?

22 A. They're behind a glass booth,

23 wall. I really wasn't considering being

24 harmed, but I did not think they considered the

25 fact that I was overtly humiliated.

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1 Q. It's not ODH's responsibility to

2 set the guidelines for what the Social Security

3 Administration requires to change the sex on a

4 Social Security record, right?

5 MS. INGELHART: Objection. Calls for

6 speculation and legal conclusion. You can answer.

7 THE WITNESS: I would hope they would

8 be consistent with, you know, federal rules and

9 regulations and guidelines.

10 BY MR. BLAKE:

11 Q. Right. And that's not ODH's

12 responsibility to set federal rules and

13 guidelines, right?

14 A. I'm not familiar with what the

15 actual guidelines and rules are for the ODH.

16 Q. You don't believe ODH has any

17 input into what the federal government says,

18 here's what we do to update Social Security

19 records, right?

20 A. No, I don't think they're directly

21 connected.

22 Q. And you don't believe that ODH has

23 any control over whether certain employees for

24 the Social Security Administration properly

25 apply such Administration's own policies,

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1 right?

2 MS. INGELHART: Objection. Calls for

3 a legal conclusion, speculation. You can answer.

4 THE WITNESS: At the time when this

5 happened, I was certainly not thinking that this

6 was, you know, the particular fault of the Ohio

7 Department of Health, except the fact that I

8 didn't have a corrected birth certificate and I

9 couldn't get one.

10 BY MR. BLAKE:

11 Q. ODH didn't instruct the employee

12 of the Social Security Administration to

13 disclose your sex, right?

14 A. Instruct them? I'm sure they had

15 no awareness that I was even coming to visit

16 them.

17 Q. Have you been required to show

18 your birth certificate in other contexts?

19 A. I was required to provide my birth

20 certificate when I had my passport updated.

21 Q. When was that?

22 A. I think it was in 2014.

23 Q. Was that before or after you

24 started living openly as a female?

25 A. I think it was during the initial

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1 transition, fairly early.

2 Q. When you displayed your --

3 A. I'm guessing it was probably about

4 a year into it.

5 Q. Okay. When you presented your

6 birth certificate to the U.S. passport agency,

7 did you have any fear of bodily harm?

8 A. No.

9 Q. Were you humiliated in any way

10 during that experience?

11 A. No.

12 Q. Any other instances where you had

13 to show your birth certificate?

14 A. Well, once I got my passport, then

15 I used the passport for most of the instances

16 where I had to supply a primary document.

17 Q. All right. What about to the

18 court in where you had your name

19 changed, did you have to show your birth

20 certificate then?

21 A. Yes, I believe so.

22 Q. You didn't fear any bodily harm

23 from the court in right?

24 A. Correct.

25 Q. You didn't experience any

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1 humiliation when you had your name changed,

2 right?

3 A. No, the judge was very nice.

4 Q. Have you had to show your birth

5 certificate in connection with any schooling

6 that you've received?

7 A. No.

8 Q. Have you had to show it to any

9 friends or relatives?

10 A. No.

11 Q. What about to any medical

12 professionals, to your knowledge?

13 A. No.

14 Q. What about for insurance purposes,

15 receive any other benefits?

16 A. No.

17 Q. And when you got your 

18 driver's license, I take it you used your

19 passport? Correct?

20 A. Actually, I'm not even sure if

21 they wanted that. They wanted multiple

22 identifiers. I'm not sure if I used the

23 passport. I might have.

24 Q. But you didn't use your birth

25 certificate, right?

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1 A. Correct.

2 MR. BLAKE: Can you give me just one

3 minute. I'm going to look over my notes. I might

4 be done, but I'm just going to look over my notes

5 real fast, okay?

6 MS. INGELHART: Sure.

7 (Pause in proceedings.)

8 MR. BLAKE: Okay. I don't have

9 anything further.

10 MS. INGELHART: And I don't have any

11 questions, but Jane Doe wants to say something.

12 MR. BLAKE: Oh, sure, go ahead.

13 THE WITNESS: I just want to say

14 thank you for allowing us to do this interview

15 this way and not having me come to Ohio. I

16 appreciate it very much.

17 MR. BLAKE: Yeah. Let's go off the

18 record.

19 (Thereupon, signature was not

20 waived.)

21 (Thereupon, the deposition was

22 concluded at 2:01 p.m.)

23

24

25

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1 STATE OF OHIO )

2 COUNTY OF MONTGOMERY ) SS: CERTIFICATE

3 I, Kathy S. Wysong, a Notary

4 Public within and for the State of Ohio, duly

5 commissioned and qualified,

6 DO HEREBY CERTIFY that the

7 above-named JANE DOE, was by me first duly sworn

8 to testify the truth, the whole truth and

9 nothing but the truth.

10 Said testimony was reduced to

11 writing by me stenographically in the presence

12 of the witness and thereafter reduced to

13 typewriting.

14 I FURTHER CERTIFY that I am not a

15 relative or Attorney of either party, in any

16 manner interested in the event of this action,

17 nor am I, or the court reporting firm with which

18 I am affiliated, under a contract as defined in

19 Civil Rule 28(D).

20

21

22

23

24

25

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1 Veritext Legal Solutions

 1100 Superior Ave

2 Suite 1820

 Cleveland, Ohio 44114

3 Phone: 216-523-1313

4

September 24, 2019

5

To: Kara N. Ingelhart

6

Case Name: Ray, Stacie, et al. v. Acton, Amy, etc., et al.

7

Veritext Reference Number: 3511588

8

Witness: Jane Doe Deposition Date: 9/13/2019

9

10 Dear Sir/Madam:

11

Enclosed please find a deposition transcript. Please have the witness

12

review the transcript and note any changes or corrections on the

13

included errata sheet, indicating the page, line number, change, and

14

the reason for the change. Have the witness’ signature notarized and

15

forward the completed page(s) back to us at the Production address

16 shown

17 above, or email to production-midwest@veritext.com.

18

If the errata is not returned within thirty days of your receipt of

19

this letter, the reading and signing will be deemed waived.

20

21 Sincerely,

22 Production Department

23

24

25 NO NOTARY REQUIRED IN CA

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1 DEPOSITION REVIEW

 CERTIFICATION OF WITNESS

2

 ASSIGNMENT REFERENCE NO: 3511588

3 CASE NAME: Ray, Stacie, et al. v. Acton, Amy, etc., et al.

 DATE OF DEPOSITION: 9/13/2019

4 WITNESS' NAME: Jane Doe

5 In accordance with the Rules of Civil

 Procedure, I have read the entire transcript of

6 my testimony or it has been read to me.

7 I have listed my changes on the attached

 Errata Sheet, listing page and line numbers as

8 well as the reason(s) for the change(s).

9 I request that these changes be entered

 as part of the record of my testimony.

10

 I have executed the Errata Sheet, as well

11 as this Certificate, and request and authorize

 that both be appended to the transcript of my

12 testimony and be incorporated therein.

13 _______________ ________________________

 Date Jane Doe

14

 Sworn to and subscribed before me, a

15 Notary Public in and for the State and County,

 the referenced witness did personally appear

16 and acknowledge that:

17 They have read the transcript;

 They have listed all of their corrections

18 in the appended Errata Sheet;

 They signed the foregoing Sworn

19 Statement; and

 Their execution of this Statement is of

20 their free act and deed.

21 I have affixed my name and official seal

22 this ______ day of_____________________, 20____.

23 ___________________________________

 Notary Public

24

 ___________________________________

25 Commission Expiration Date

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VERITEXT LEGAL SOLUTIONS 

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