## Meeting June 17, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 1 ASRAC MEETING - ADVISORY COMMITTEE MEMBERS JUNE 17, 2015 A P P E A R A N C E S Karim Amrane Ashley Armstrong David B. Calabrese John F. Caskey Jennifer Cleary John Cymbalsky Andrew deLaski Tom Eckman Simona Fried Charles Hon David Hungerford - via webinar Diane M. Jakobs Kelley Kline John Lebo Michael J. McCabe Charles McCrudden Deborah E. Miller Mark Weiss Dave Winningham - via webinar

AUDIO TRANSCRIBED BY KYLIE S. SHEPHERD

## Meeting June 17, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 2 1 P R O C E E D I N G S 2 MS. ARMSTRONG: Do you want me to start or do 3 you want to start? 4 MR. deLASKI: I'll start us. We have an agenda 5 that was just turned in yesterday, everyone should have 6 that in front of them. 7 Why don't we start with some introductions and 8 find out who's here and who we have on the webinar. Let 9 me get this microphone, that will probably help. And 10 then we'll review the agenda. 11 So I'm Andrew deLaski, I'm with the Appliance 12 Standards Awareness Project. 13 MS. JAKOBS: Diane Jakobs with Rheem. 14 MS. KLINE: Kelley Kline with GE. 15 MR. ECKMAN: Tom Eckman, Northwest Power and 16 Conservation Council. 17 MR. CASKEY: John Caskey with NEMA. 18 MS. CLEARY: Jen Cleary with Association of Home 19 Appliance Manufacturers. 20 MR. HON: Charlie Hon with True Manufacturing. 21 MS. ARMSTRONG: Ashley Armstrong, DOE. 22 MS. MILLER: Deborah Miller National Association 23 State Energy Officials. 24 MR. deLASKI: Do we have some participants from 25 the committee on the webinar?

## Meeting June 17, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 3 1 MS. ARMSTRONG: Yeah, so Alex, is -- can you 2 unmute Dave's line -- Hungerford? 3 MR. HUNGERFORD: Hi, this is David Hungerford. 4 I'm getting feedback, so can you hear me? 5 MS. ARMSTRONG: We can hear you. 6 MR. deLASKI: Great. And then John Mandyck sent 7 his regrets, he's traveling for business in Europe this 8 week and Scott Harris sent us a note this morning 9 indicating that he's in for surgery tomorrow. And I 10 don't know whether that's our full complement or not. Am 11 I forgetting anybody? 12 MS. ARMSTRONG: That's everybody. 13 MR. deLASKI: Okay. So we have quorum. So for 14 the agenda that was sent around, I thought we should 15 first take a look at the minutes from the last meeting, 16 we'll approve those. Let's look at the agenda now. 17 We're going to start with updates for the 18 current working groups that have been trotted by us 19 earlier this year. We have an agreement on a terms sheet 20 for rooftop units that was approved by the working group 21 on Monday and distributed to this group yesterday for our 22 consideration. 23 Updates on commercial and industrial fans 24 working group, and the miscellaneous refrigeration 25 working group, and then we have a new request from a

## Meeting June 17, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 4 1 working group that came in to the committee last week 2 from AHRI and Lennox for a working group to be formed on 3 central air conditioners. I think that's got other 4 organizations supporting it, as well, I think from Hardy 5 and ACCA I think yesterday. 6 We'll break for lunch around 12:15, and then in 7 the afternoon we'll continue the conversations that we 8 began at our last meeting in terms of this committee 9 fulfilling its charge to provide broader cross-cutting 10 advice to the program and how the program could be -- 11 could be more -- could improve its effectiveness. 12 Hopefully we'll have updates from the subgroups 13 that we formed last time on what they've been able to 14 accomplish since then and continue some of those 15 discussions. And we'll leave a little time at the end 16 for -- to make sure we have time for other topics. 17 Are there other things that people want to talk 18 about today that don't show up on this agenda somewhere? 19 Do we need to make any adjustments to the agenda? 20 Okay. I'm hearing none. Why don't we take a 21 look at the minutes from last time. People have a chance 22 to read those? Any concern with those notes or minutes? 23 Motion to approve the minutes? 24 MR. HUNGERFORD: This is David, wait a minute, 25 wait, wait, wait. On the fourth page -- I'm getting

## Meeting June 17, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 5 1 feedback so it's sort of odd. The -- at the top, there's 2 the bullet that talks about if we move to a system 3 efficiency that we have to agree to a system efficiency 4 and that's got a form efficiency metric. I think what we 5 were trying to say was form factor there. 6 MR. deLASKI: Yeah, I see the bullet, David. 7 I'm not sure what the edit is that the correction would 8 be. 9 MR. HUNGERFORD: The sentence is a little 10 confused. But I think the fundamental idea was the use 11 of the term "form factor," but that's the problem with 12 efficiency is that it's difficult to define the form 13 factor. 14 MR. deLASKI: So maybe it should be then we have 15 to agree on a system efficiency -- 16 MR. HUNGERFORD: Then it creates problems for 17 defining a form factor. 18 MR. deLASKI: Yeah. Maybe we should just edit, 19 "which creates challenges for defining the form factor." 20 MR. HUNGERFORD: That works, thanks. 21 MR. deLASKI: Everybody okay with that; David's 22 edit? Any objections? 23 MALE SPEAKER: David's edit? 24 MR. deLASKI: If we move to a system efficiency, 25 then we have to agree to a system efficiency which

## Meeting June 17, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 6 1 creates challenges for defining the form factor. 2 MR. HUNGERFORD: I think leaving out that "then 3 we have to agree to a system efficiency," I don't -- it's 4 sort of redundant. 5 MR. deLASKI: Yeah, I mean, these are notes. I 6 don't think we have to -- we probably were redundant when 7 we said it, too. 8 Need a couple more minutes to glance through 9 these or are we ready to approve the minutes? I see 10 people sort of reading, so I'll let you -- another minute 11 or two. 12 All right. Is there a motion to approve the 13 minutes? Seconded. Anybody object? Okay. First piece 14 of business done. 15 So let's move on to our second major item: 16 Updates on the current working groups. I think it falls 17 to me to report on the progress of the commercial AC and 18 furnace working group. I served on that working group 19 along with John Cymbalsky for DOE, as well as 20 representatives from several other organizations here 21 today. Charlie McCrudden, who's in the audience, was in 22 the working group. As well as -- 23 MS. JAKOBS: I was an alternate. 24 MR. deLASKI: Diane's organization -- Karen 25 Meyers from Rheem, Diane was an alternate. And I'm

## Meeting June 17, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 7 1 looking around here for others who were participants of 2 the working group. Of course Karim attended the meetings 3 and Dave Calabrese's company, Daikin Goodman, was 4 represented. Michael was here on behalf of Lennox who 5 also served on the working group. 6 FEMALE SPEAKER: Trane. 7 MR. deLASKI: Excuse me, thank you. Michael was 8 here on behalf of Trane. 9 So it was -- so we have a terms sheet which was 10 distributed to the -- to the committee yesterday and also 11 is part of the committee packet. This term sheet was 12 finalized in an all-day webinar on Monday. I want to 13 make it -- before I talk about sort of the elements of 14 the terms sheet, let me just make a couple of sort of 15 overall observations about the process here. 16 You know, the first thing I think it's important 17 to recognize is that DOE chartered this working group 18 back in April. We recognized they had a very short -- we 19 had a very short time frame to get this work done. I 20 think there was some initial, like, "Geez, how are you 21 going to get that done in just a couple of months?" DOE 22 had already published a proposed rule, it was clearly a 23 priority for the agency given the large energy savings at 24 stake and priority for many of us given the potential 25 savings opportunity identified in the proposed rule

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202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 8 1 issued in 2014. 2 But there was a desire on the part of industry 3 to bring together the compliance dates for rooftop units 4 and for commercial air conditioners -- I'm sorry, 5 commercial furnaces -- given that they're part of the 6 same box in many cases. And a desire to -- to -- to 7 approach this one through our negotiated rulemaking. 8 So this committee approved that working group. 9 We formed pretty quickly in April, and it was under -- 10 work was underway as of mid-April. So I think it's a 11 real credit to everybody involved in that working group 12 to be able to totally buckle down and to be disciplined 13 and to focus and to get to a consensus -- which was 14 unanimous -- in just a couple of months. 15 Now, as someone who served in the working group, 16 I can speak specifically to sort of the spirit of 17 cooperation and the -- again, the discipline of the group 18 in staying focused on task on trying to solve some very 19 specific questions about standards and levels, and also 20 addressing concerns about test methods, but recognizing 21 that we have to -- that the rule was set for us in the 22 sense that we couldn't change it for this iteration. But 23 we also wanted to be sure that we had an opportunity to 24 address long-standing concerns or address -- have a 25 longer-term strategy for tackling test method concerns.

## Meeting June 17, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 9 1 The committee itself was broadly representative, 2 it included representatives from the manufacturers, 3 representative from installers, Charlie's organization, 4 The Air Conditioning Contractors Association of America, 5 from the sheet metal workers -- sheet metal SMACMA -- I'm 6 going to have trouble with the acronym, but the Sheet 7 Metal Companies Contractors Association. It also 8 included representatives from efficiency organizations, 9 environmental organizations, and utility companies. So 10 we had broad representation. 11 And then of course in this committee here, we 12 have, you know, representation from a lot of those same 13 stakeholders. In addition, we have representatives from 14 State government, of course, here today, NASEO and Dave 15 Hungerford who's representing the State of California, 16 demonstrating the broad support that we have in these 17 committees that we're forming to tackle -- come up with 18 recommendations for joint -- for new standards. 19 One of the things that came forward during the 20 process that I think is important for this committee to 21 understand is that we, as a committee, had posed some 22 questions to the department about some of the things that 23 we thought we needed to get flexibility to open up 24 pathways to outcomes that would meet all the 25 participants' needs most effectively.

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202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 10 1 So we asked four questions of the agency in 2 terms of our latitude. One had to do -- was could we 3 flex the effective date, the compliance date? In other 4 words, the statute -- DOE had proposed a lead time of a 5 three-year lead time from the final rule to the 6 compliance date. And the question we had is, well, are 7 we bound to that or could we consider other compliance 8 dates that might let us get to a higher standard level 9 later or a lower standard level sooner that would sort of 10 use that as a variable to meet stakeholder needs? 11 And the other question was: Could we do two 12 compliance dates? In other words, have a standard that 13 would take effect with a -- an initial standard at one 14 year, and then a more aggressive standard in a further 15 out year; that was the second question. 16 The third question was: Could we use two 17 metrics? Could we include a standard -- in this 18 particular case, we were interested in being able to 19 explore keeping the EER metric at the current levels and 20 also increasing -- and then also moving to the new metric 21 which is IEER and having ultimate agreement that would 22 include two performance standards. 23 And then the final question was: Could we do a 24 design standard, could we include an IEER metric and also 25 say and have a design requirement? We posed those

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202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 11 1 questions to the agency and the agency came back with an 2 answer, which was yes to all four. So that really opened 3 the door for us in terms of some -- in terms of the 4 negotiations to have more flexibility. 5 And then the agency -- the general counsel 6 explained to us that the way that they saw that 7 flexibility was by using the agency's direct final rule 8 authority. You know, those of us who worked on the air 9 conditioner and furnace negotiations a few years ago, and 10 I think also with some of the process of negotiating with 11 AHAM, Kelley with GE and Jen with AHAM, we've seen this 12 authority used before where they were privately 13 negotiated agreements that were broadly representative of 14 the various stakeholder groups. And DOE used that 15 authority before to have some flexibility on some of 16 these issues. 17 So we heard back from the agency that they saw 18 that flexibility here, as well, through this process. 19 And that -- so we didn't use all four of those elements 20 in the agreement, but we used two of them. And that was 21 a -- a very useful opening of -- opening up of our 22 possibilities for this negotiation. So the answer again 23 is by using the direct final rule authority so that the 24 agency could do this. So it's our expectation now that 25 the agency will move forward to implement this terms

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202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 12 1 sheet as a direct final rule, which means that they'll 2 publish a final rule and a proposed rule simultaneous; 3 one to the other, there will be an opportunity for 4 comment on that, and then the agency, you know, assuming 5 no significant adverse comment, the agency will move 6 forward with a final rule. 7 MR. ECKMAN: Andrew, were those responses 8 specific to the air conditioning rule or were they more 9 general to the rulemaking process as a whole? 10 MR. deLASKI: I understood them -- we asked the 11 question in the context of this reg-neg, but I understood 12 the answer to be one that was a generalizable answer is 13 how I understood it. I don't know why it would be 14 different, particularly given the track record. 15 MR. ECKMAN: Does that give us the rulemaking 16 possibilities a lot more flexibility than they've had in 17 the past if you can use a direct final rule to mitigate 18 some of the constraints that are in the standard 19 rulemaking process. 20 MR. deLASKI: Right. When there's a consensus 21 and that consensus is of broadly representative 22 stakeholders, as has been in the case this time, states 23 manufacturers, utilities, efficiency advocates. 24 MS. ARMSTRONG: So yeah, and I just want to 25 mention -- this is Ashley from DOE -- you know, one of

## Meeting June 17, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 13 1 the provisions from the statute says on receipt of a 2 statement that is submitted by interested persons that 3 are fairly representative of relevant points of view, 4 including representatives of manufacturers of covered 5 products, states, and efficiency advocates as determined 6 by the secretary as containing recommendations with 7 respect to an energy or water conservation standard. 8 So as Andrew noted, DOE's strongly considering 9 using its direct final rule authority, and it's important 10 that ASRAC understand that as members of this committee, 11 you are representing a pretty broad interest. And so the 12 interest here, you know, we have the states that are 13 represented by Deborah and David; we have the 14 manufacturers of the covered products that would be 15 represented by Diane who represents Rheem and others; and 16 we have efficiency advocates that would be represented 17 not only on the working group itself, but both ASRAC when 18 it's considering in potentially approving to give to DOE. 19 So I think it's important you consider, you 20 know, the wide variety of people involved not only at the 21 working group level, but also at the ASRAC level because 22 you are voting to approve, edit, change, whatever when 23 you're considering this proposal before giving it to the 24 department. So yeah. Thanks, Andrew. 25 MR. deLASKI: So let me, you know, in terms of

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202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 14 1 the broad brush outcome, we -- one of the key things that 2 we did through this process as a committee was first to 3 work on the analysis. We spent two or three meetings 4 giving the department -- the department had already 5 incorporated the feedback -- the department's consultants 6 had already incorporated the feedback they'd been 7 submitted through the written comment, so there was a new 8 iteration of the analysis for us to consider early on. 9 We provided additional feedback that led to a 10 couple other iterations of the analysis to where we got 11 to the point where we got to an analysis that all 12 stakeholders could live with. None of us were completely 13 satisfied with it, but we could live with it as a basis 14 for negotiation, and that provided us the groundwork, you 15 know, a basis for which we could negotiate levels and 16 dates. 17 The final -- according to the revised analysis 18 that we all decided we could live with, the standards 19 that we agreed to will save 15 quads of energy over the 20 30-year analysis period. Any of you who have been around 21 DOE rulemakings before, you know that's an awfully big 22 number. It's a big number no matter how you look at it. 23 We did -- we're looking for some ways to put it in 24 context. 25 So one way to put it in context is that's equal

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202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 15 1 to the energy -- equal to the production of all the coal 2 plants in the U.S. for a year, so it's a big number. The 3 net present value benefits to users to the buyers of the 4 equipment is about $50 billion. So it's an enormous 5 standard in terms of the benefits. It's one where the 6 manufacturers have made enormous progress in terms of 7 improving efficiency in their products really in a 8 sustained way. 9 We had the initial standards accepted by 10 congress in the mid-nineties, we had a good step up in 11 2005 that was a compliance date in 2010, and now we have 12 what will be a modest step in 2018, about 10 percent 13 improvement, and then a second step in 2023, which is a 14 25 to 30 percent improvement. Provides manufacturers 15 with that certainty of what the future looks like in a 16 two-step process. 17 Sure, let me finish and then I'll give Diane a 18 chance to -- since you were on the working group. One of 19 the things that we heard was the desire to, you know, 20 combine effective dates for furnaces and for air 21 conditioners, so we did that in the working group so that 22 led to one redesign instead of two redesigns of this 23 product. 24 We also pushed out that second compliance date 25 to a point where it can be -- has the potential to take

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202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 16 1 effect at the same time as changes to refrigerants for 2 manufacturers. So that will depend on other regulatory 3 action by another agency and a whole host of things have 4 to happen for that, but that was part of the things that 5 we were attempting to do here was to end up with a path 6 that provides certainty in a trajectory for improvement 7 spread over a longer period of time that would have been 8 the case absent a negotiation and that allows these 9 various design cycles to be done together, creates the 10 potential for that. So that was sort of this common -- 11 in my view, this combination of factors getting, you 12 know, very large national energy savings, economic 13 benefits, and doing it in a way that worked best for 14 manufacturers. 15 Comment? 16 MS. JAKOBS: I think that it is a big step, and 17 it is challenging. But I think it grew out of changes in 18 technology, the VFD drives, and AHRI, we developed -- the 19 manufacturers together developed the IEER test metric and 20 have been testing to it for a number of years. And so I 21 think there was a whole development that led up to this 22 big step. And that I think doing it this way is -- is 23 more constructive than trying to dictate it, you know? 24 It kind of just organically grew out of changes in 25 technology that have occurred over the last probably ten

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202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 17

1 years. So thank you. 2 MR. deLASKI: So that's a high-level comment and 3 then if you think it would be useful for people, I can 4 walk through the term sheet. But any other questions or 5 comments at the high level? 6 MR. HON: This is Charlie Hon. One thing I did 7 notice in here is the fact that you've got -- with the 8 two dates coming in 2018 and 2023 dates. How does the, 9 then, from that point forward -- because DOE has a 10 responsibility of reviewing certain number of years 11 after, you know, they have a cycle -- normal cycle built 12 in: Review, update, possibly just reaffirm the existing 13 condition. 14 How does -- with -- by putting two dates in 15 there, how does it affect the cycles from the DOE? 16 MR. deLASKI: I can give you my opinion, but 17 maybe you want to hear from Ashley. So my understanding 18 of the way the statute works, Charlie, is that the 19 statute -- there's two triggers for this set of products. 20 One is an ASHRAE revision, right, so if ASHRAE makes a 21 revision, that then triggers a DOE review and DOE has to 22 be their -- adopt that revision or determine that they 23 need to do a more full rulemaking. 24 And then the other trigger is the regular review 25 provison, which I think is what you're asking about. Under

## Meeting June 17, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 18 1 the regular review provision, a proposed rule is due six 2 years after the last final rule, and a final rule is due 3 eight years after the last final rule. So the way I 4 interpret it, that what triggers that will be the final 5 rule publication date -- that -- that -- that cycle. 6 MR. HON: Charlie Hon again. So therefore, 7 under this system, the next revision from the DOE would 8 be due just about the exact same time as the new -- the 9 2023 dates come about? You're going to be right on top 10 of each other? 11 MR. deLASKI: That's right. I mean, and I 12 think -- you know, as you noted in your -- as you 13 described it initially, it's the next review which may or 14 may not lead to a revision. 15 Ashley's not going to correct me, so I think 16 I'll -- 17 MS. ARMSTRONG: No, you got it. You know, 18 there's a second part of that which is the compliancy 19 implementation provision, which is like a catch-all. 20 Which it says something around, you know -- I don't have 21 the statute in front of me -- but it basically provides 22 for five years. 23 So even if we did the final rule on the six-year 24 look back provision, we still have to provide the five 25 years in between for compliance. So really, they would

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202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 19 1 just know the standards earlier, which could be 2 beneficial to some people if they ultimately, you know, 3 if we do a rule and ultimately finds that standard term 4 worked. 5 MR. deLASKI: So why don't I step through the 6 term sheet. I think the background is pretty clear. We 7 had 17 nominations for the working group, we ended up 8 with -- I think we actually accepted all 17 nominations 9 is I think what we ended up doing as a committee. We had 10 six total meetings in the space of just a couple of 11 months; most of them were in person, several in this 12 room. And we did our final conversation, our final 13 meeting on Monday by an all-day -- in an all-day webinar. 14 We reached a successful consensus on both topics that 15 were assigned to us, which was to negotiate levels and 16 dates for both commercial air conditioners and commercial 17 furnaces. 18 Recommendation number 1 deals with commercial 19 warm air furnaces, we agreed on a new standard of 20 81 percent thermal efficiency effective January 1st, 21 2023. It's a modest improvement in the standard; the 22 current standard's 80 percent. And for oil furnaces, we 23 agreed on a new standard of 82 percent, and I don't 24 recall what the current one is, it might be 80 as well. 25 MS. ARMSTRONG: 81.

## Meeting June 17, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 20 1 MR. deLASKI: Oh, it's 81? So in both cases, 2 the 1 percentage point energy efficiency, and we had a 3 unanimous vote on that measure. 4 On air-cooled commercial packaged air 5 conditioners and heat pumps, that was the second thing 6 that was charged to us. We had several recommendations, 7 the first ones dealt with test procedures. As I had 8 mentioned at the outset, one of the things that we, you 9 know, became apparent to me that actually I didn't 10 understand going into this rulemaking -- although many 11 people in the working group did -- is that the current 12 metric for -- or the new metric, the IEER metric doesn't 13 well represent fan energy use. There's a lot of energy 14 consumption of fans. 15 MS. JAKOBS: Ventilation. 16 MR. deLASKI: Ventilation fan energy use -- 17 Diane's the technical expert here so she'll correct me as 18 I get it right. So the ventilation energy consumption of 19 the fan -- of the fans is not well -- well characterized 20 by the IEER metric; it's included in DOE's analysis. 21 DOE, as in all analyses, tries to capture the -- what 22 consumers actually face in the real world, but the metric 23 doesn't capture it. So it's one of these dilemmas that 24 we often see in rulemakings where -- too often, I would 25 say see in rulemakings -- where there's something you can

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202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 21 1 do to make it more efficient, but not showing up on the 2 test metric. 3 So we recognized this as a problem that we 4 couldn't solve this time around because it's a lot of 5 testing to figure it out, you know, it's not something we 6 can fix quickly. But we recognize that it's something 7 that should be addressed so we created a recommendation 8 that DOE initiate a rulemaking by next January and 9 complete it within three years to consider this issue, as 10 well as any other things that are brought to it about the 11 test method and work to publish a revised test method 12 that would provide the basis for that next iteration, 13 Charlie, that you're asking me about. 14 And one of the things that this does is it gets 15 us ahead of the test method so that people will know the 16 rules of the road for that next iteration early on. 17 There's been a lot of concerns raised about the test 18 revisions being too late. And the idea that this is an 19 important one, let's get it done early, it can go on to 20 the Code of Federal Regulations, people will be able to, 21 you know, sort of sequence both their understanding and 22 being the test to it sooner and it could be adopted by 23 90.1. And that provides a -- a way to get ahead of the 24 fan energy use which is a big element not 25 well-represented today.

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202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 22 1 MR. HON: So is that the 2023 date would be 2 using the revised test method? 3 MR. deLASKI: No. 4 MR. HON: No? The next round? 5 MR. deLASKI: It will change ratings, right. 6 Once you change that, you're not going to say that your 7 IEER has to be value X, the same piece of equipment is 8 going to have a different -- ultimately, almost surely 9 have a different value. 10 And then a related recommendation is that this 11 issue of fan energy consumption is coming up in the fans 12 working group, which we're going to hear from Diane on 13 later. 14 MS. JAKOBS: Okay. 15 MR. deLASKI: And so the manufacturers of the 16 rooftop units felt strongly that -- that if they're going 17 to agree to a metric -- to revise the metric to include 18 fan energy use more completely in the IEER metric, that 19 equipment subject to that standard should have some -- 20 shouldn't have to meet both the fan standard and the IEER 21 standard. 22 So what we agreed to in the working group was to 23 express our opinion to the other working group, which we 24 have done here in this bullet to -- as described here. 25 And ultimately, that working group has to work through

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202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 23 1 those issues in the details on how to make it -- how to 2 operationalize that concept. 3 The concern that we have as advocates is that we 4 not -- whatever solution they come up with, that it 5 doesn't get a loophole that undermines the effectiveness 6 of the fan's regulation. So therein lies the challenge, 7 and one that that working group, I think, has already 8 been working on. 9 Give you folks a chance to read that 10 recommendation. 11 MS. JAKOBS: I just have a question on that 12 (inaudible) on the test method. I'm wondering if the 13 term sheet says anything about what you've -- what 14 you've just now outlined that it wouldn't be used for the 15 2023 standard or if it does. 16 MS. ARMSTRONG: Yeah, it says, "The new test 17 procedure and any resulting revised metric will not be 18 used for assessing representations or compliancy 19 standards described in this term sheet." So in other 20 words, it makes clear that it's kicked to the next set. 21 MR. deLASKI: Where is that, Ashley? 22 MS. ARMSTRONG: It's on number 2. 23 MS. JAKOBS: Then I think -- I think that just 24 might be a point of confusion. Because as I read that, I 25 thought that meant the currently negotiated standards,

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202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 24 1 not the 2023 standards. And I thought Tom's question was 2 about whether it would be used in the 2023 standards and 3 Andrew's response was no, it wouldn't. 4 MR. deLASKI: Maybe we'll get to that on the 5 next bullet, because the 2023 standards are negotiated, 6 they're done, they're locked in under this. So this 7 term sheet -- so then the next item, number 4, is where 8 you see those 2023 standards in this term sheet. 9 MS. JAKOBS: Okay. Thank you. 10 MR. deLASKI: Any other questions on the 11 recommendations number 2 and 3 concerning test methods? 12 And then the next one is the standards and their 13 compliance dates. As I described earlier, thinking -- 14 having two compliance dates; one: January 1st, 2018, 15 which pulls ahead the NOPR called for January 2019. So 16 it takes an initial standard and pulls it a year earlier 17 in what would have been the case in the NOPR, and it 18 takes a second compliance date and takes it four years 19 later than what would have been the case in the NOPR at a 20 more demanding level. 21 The values here in very rough terms are about a 22 10 percent savings over baseline in 2018 standard, and at 23 25 to 30 percent improvement in efficiency in the second 24 tier -- second phase. Basically 30 percent for the small 25 equipment, 27 or 28 percent or so for the medium --

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202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 25 1 what's called the large equipment, and about 25 percent 2 improvement in efficiency for the very large equipment, 3 and includes values for IEER. And then for heat pumps on 4 the heating side. And, again, this was approved by -- 5 unanimously by those -- by the working group. 6 John? 7 MR. CASKEY: This is John Caskey, NEMA. 8 Basically, my question concerns the technology itself. 9 Diane answered some of this by saying it includes 10 variable frequency drives or variable speed drives 11 already. So are there other major technological changes 12 that need to occur in order for these efficiencies to 13 exist or is it pretty much sort of a commonsense material 14 improvement that's going to produce these results? 15 MS. JAKOBS: I think -- well, because the energy 16 metric is stepped, so certain percentage at -- it's 17 partial loads and it's a weighted average. 18 So the way you use the partial loading in your 19 design, what you design for, you know, that that can lead 20 to the gains in efficiency. So in a way, it's a new -- 21 I'm getting -- I think it's just progressing with the 22 technology. I think that's true, but it's not like the 23 efficiency of the motor or the coils is improving, it's 24 more how the components are put together and used as a 25 system.

## Meeting June 17, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 26 1 Did I answer your question? 2 MR. CASKEY: I think so. So you're saying the 3 manufacturers have optimized the performance, if you 4 will, knowing what the part load -- what the part loading 5 on the system is projected to be, essentially, or defined 6 to be? 7 MS. JAKOBS: Right. 8 MR. CASKEY: Okay. Okay. Thanks. 9 MS. MILLER: Hi, it's Deborah Miller. I have a 10 question, and it might be a little strange question 11 because there may not be small manufacturers left that 12 produce this equipment, but we're moving these standards 13 up pretty quickly. 14 What's the impact on any small manufacturers? 15 Do any exist anymore? I don't know. But, you know, the 16 burden of this can be extreme. I have no problems with 17 the outcome, but I'm sort of curious if there was a look 18 at that question, as there usually is. 19 MR. deLASKI: Well, there's two parts to my 20 response to that. One is that even some of the big 21 manufacturers -- some people that you think of as big 22 manufacturers are small in this market. Diane's laughing 23 because I -- 24 MS. JAKOBS: You are. Okay. 25 MR. deLASKI: So there's some companies that we

## Meeting June 17, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 27 1 all think of -- you may think of as being big who are 2 relatively small players here. You know, they were very 3 active in participating in this. 4 In addition, AHRI representing the industry as a 5 whole in the working group. And also draw your attention 6 to the fifth recommendation which was for dual-duct 7 units. These are particular units that are, in part, 8 made by a couple of small manufacturers that were 9 explicitly exempted -- or the intent is they are 10 explicitly exempted from these iterations for the reasons 11 that you described. 12 The important thing was to come up with the 13 definition that was going to be rock solid here in terms 14 of preventing a loophole; we spent quite a bit of time on 15 that. Bob Whitwell from Carrier, in particular, took the 16 lead in developing a definition that would allow these 17 products to continue to be sold without -- they're mostly 18 made by small manufacturers. 19 MS. MILLER: Okay. Thank you. 20 MS. JAKOBS: So this is Diane Jakobs from Rheem. 21 There's also a lot of discussion about, really size 22 constraints that the equipment has gotten, over the 23 years, larger and larger and larger, and we're running 24 into problems making it larger. 25 There are rooftop units, the load capacity for

## Meeting June 17, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 28 1 the roof to carry the equipment, the -- in retrofit, you 2 have a roof curb which is just kind of the connection to 3 the duct work, that's fixed. So as you make your 4 equipment even larger, you're running into problems. And 5 these dual-duct equipment, they were ones that were size 6 constrained, so they have special challenges. 7 MR. deLASKI: That's the terms sheet. Are there 8 other questions? 9 MS. KLINE: Andrew, you mentioned earlier there 10 are some sections about changes in refrigerants in terms 11 of compliance dates. What were the assumptions? 12 MR. deLASKI: The assumption is that -- and 13 actually, Diane's going to have to help me out here 14 again -- but that the refrigerants that are the most 15 commonly used today in these products will go away and 16 there will be a shift in the -- roughly the 2023 time 17 frame to new refrigerants. 18 MS. JAKOBS: You're referencing HFCs? 19 MR. deLASKI: I'll let Diane give you the -- 20 MS. JAKOBS: HFCs, so they're going away in 21 Europe, there's regulations proposed in Canada. It's 22 more that we don't know what will happen. EPA has made 23 some changes in their SNAP program, so we know that it's 24 coming, but we don't know what it will be. And we're 25 not -- it's like the industry hasn't kind of settled in

## Meeting June 17, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 29 1 on what the alternate will be. And so the -- to help us 2 with that challenge, that was part of the dates that were 3 chosen for the second stage. 4 MS. KLINE: Thank you. 5 MR. deLASKI: So I want to make sure that anyone 6 else who was part of the working group who's in the 7 audience or participated wants to add anything for the 8 committee's consideration, I would -- if I can, I'd open 9 it up to Charlie or a representative of any of the others 10 who are participants. 11 MR. AMRANE: This is Karim Amrane with AHRI. I 12 think as Andrew mentioned, I think the committee worked 13 very hard to reach consensus; and although the timing was 14 challenging, you know, two months, but I think we had the 15 benefit of also meeting outside of the working group, 16 because we started talking at least with some of the 17 parties before DOE established a working group. So we 18 had at least, you know, a few meetings where we started, 19 you know, looking at the analysis and things like that. 20 But it was challenging and at the end, like Andrew 21 mentioned, people were focused and were really -- wanted 22 to really have a deal, and at the end, it happened, and I 23 think we are all lucky. 24 MR. McCRUDDEN: This is Charlie with ACCA. I 25 agree with what Karim just said, and I would say that

## Meeting June 17, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 30 1 there's always sort of postmortems about these working 2 group sessions, and people always talk about all the 3 scars that are there. But I think ultimately it was 4 positive outcome, and that, you know, this was -- this 5 was my second working group but the first time on a 6 standard. 7 My first working group was the regional 8 enforcement -- the regional standards enforcement working 9 group, which I think was very different than the typical 10 standard setting working group. I hope to be on more, 11 and I thought it to be a good interaction between both 12 the stakeholders, the advocates, but also with the 13 consultants that DOE uses. And I think that that's -- 14 it's -- I think this is the way we're going to see more 15 of these working groups like this in the future. So -- 16 MR. AMRANE: This is Karim. And I have to agree 17 with Charlie on this -- on the issue of having the 18 consultant present in the room. I think that was 19 extremely beneficial to the group because it helped us 20 make changes on the fly and be able to look at the 21 analysis. I think that was extremely helpful. 22 MR. McCRUDDEN: This is Charlie with ACCA again 23 and just one more thing, there was a question about the 24 impact on small businesses. And I think, you know, as 25 streamlined as this is to moving forward getting to a

## Meeting June 17, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 31 1 solution or resolution to the issues that are out there, 2 the one drawback I see with the -- this negotiating 3 rulemaking process is that we may not have the ability to 4 do a full regulatory flexibility act analysis type that 5 normally occurs. 6 But I think that with everyone there, and in 7 this case I think the small folks -- the small businesses 8 are defined as 500 employees and less as a manufacturer. 9 Which is why, you know, you can capture what you may 10 consider as a large manufacturer in that small business 11 definition. And maybe that's something that we can talk 12 about in the future is looking at the impacts on the -- 13 you know, the regulatory impacts that have to be under 14 the executive orders -- I don't even remember the numbers 15 now -- that are out there. 16 But representing contractors, obviously 17 99 percent of my members would be considered small 18 businesses. Contractors are really the ones selling the 19 product, you know. Manufacturers produce, but they're 20 not selling it the way that -- you know, the last entity 21 holding the box is the contractor. And the reason I was 22 so interested in being on the working group was that I 23 want to make sure that the result doesn't affect the 24 contractors ability to sell this product. 25 But you had a good question and I just wanted to

## Meeting June 17, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 32 1 recognize that. Thanks. 2 MS. JAKOBS: So this is Diane Jakobs from Rheem. 3 And I just wanted to agree with Karim that Greg did 4 really well. I've been in the situation where you work 5 for months on something, some analysis, and you're in a 6 meeting and people start doing what-ifs and asking you 7 what it will mean, and it's very challenging. And he was 8 instrumental, I thought, in giving people good numbers to 9 work with. 10 MR. deLASKI: All right. I want to hopefully 11 bring this part of the agenda to a close. 12 MS. MILLER: I want to make one comment. It's 13 Deborah Miller, as people know me, know that I was at the 14 department for seven years and was very much involved in 15 this process when we did informal negotiated rulemakings, 16 and I have to say that this has come a long way. 17 When I was both at DOE, and it was then ARI, we 18 would sit in rooms and come to agreement and then not 19 come to agreement. I think that having ASRAC as an 20 advisory committee in making this the sort of the modus 21 operandi for dealing with rulemakings has been really 22 helpful and I just see only good things coming out of it. 23 So I want to congratulate everybody here who 24 have been involved at the department, as well as 25 manufacturers and energy efficiency groups and all others

## Meeting June 17, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 33 1 because you're doing a very good job. 2 MR. deLASKI: All right. Are there any final 3 comments before we bring this one to a vote? Comments or 4 questions? Is there a motion to approve the terms sheet? 5 Anybody opposed? 6 One abstention. David, you good? We'll assume 7 silence is a yes vote. Consider that one approved. 8 MR. HUNGERFORD: Yeah, I'm good. I had to find 9 my mute key. 10 MR. deLASKI: Good. So that one's approved 11 unanimously with one abstention. All right. 12 So moving on to our next agenda item: 13 Commercial and industrial fans. So look to an update 14 from our rep on that working group. 15 MS. JAKOBS: This is Diane Jakobs from Rheem. 16 And I haven't participated -- I think I've participated 17 in person every other meeting, but I think we're 18 challenged -- we've exchanged a lot of information, and I 19 think that people are starting to listen to each other 20 and to Ashley, and that it's a lot of -- it's a lot of 21 different product to cover, and that's part of our 22 challenge. And we also have these two separate groups 23 where we have people representing products that are 24 regulated, and then there's a group of people with 25 products that haven't been regulated, and Ashley gave a

## Meeting June 17, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 34 1 real good presentation of the requirements of the 2 department for certifying equipment which might have been 3 new information for some people, but there's -- there's a 4 lot of progress. 5 I don't -- I don't know if we'll meet our date, 6 but hopefully with all the effort that's been extended, 7 you know, that we might be able to extend the date if we 8 need it. So I guess does anyone have any questions? 9 MR. CASKEY: John Caskey, NEMA. How many 10 manufacturers are there in this area? 11 MS. JAKOBS: Well, yeah -- 12 MS. ARMSTRONG: So that's like the tricky 13 question of the day because what you're really getting at 14 is -- and what I think is providing a lot of discussion 15 in the committee is what's a fan, and at what point in 16 the process does a fan become a fan that can be tested 17 and rated and potentially be considered for standards. 18 And depending on where you draw that line -- and the 19 committee has been working around the idea of what a 20 testable configuration would be in hopes of drawing that 21 line somewhere, you know, equivocally across the chain 22 without putting undue burden with the recognization that 23 fans are used in a lot of end use applications. 24 So depending on where we end up there, the scope 25 of who's a fan manufacturer could be very broad, or could

## Meeting June 17, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 35 1 be more limited. So the answer is we're not sure, but 2 there's a lot, a lot more than a typical rulemaking. 3 Fans are used in everything right now, all different 4 categories, types of fans are being considered at least 5 for the discussion of scope. The committee hasn't made 6 any progress in terms of what may be considered for test 7 procedures and standards and what hasn't been, but that's 8 kind of where we are at this point. I don't know if you 9 have anything else to add. 10 I think one thing the committee should think 11 about in terms of ASRAC at least in my opinion is what 12 type of progress you want to see from the working group 13 for you to consider extending or not. I think that would 14 be a good message to send back to that working group if 15 we're still at month four and we haven't been able to 16 vote out anything. Is that something that the committee 17 would consider extending further or not? 18 So I think ASRAC should consider what type of 19 progress they want when the fourth one ends and Diane and 20 I come back and say, "Well, this is kind of where we 21 are," and if we're still at the scope discussion and we 22 haven't even gotten to, you know, metric or levels or, 23 you know, is that acceptable to the committee or not? It 24 would probably be a good time to send that message back 25 given where we are.

## Meeting June 17, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 36 1 MR. CASKEY: John Caskey, NEMA. My immediate 2 reaction to that is to -- from my perspective -- to 3 extend the duration. I would want to have some handle on 4 what the scope is, you know, have you gotten to the point 5 of at least being able to define a fan and figure out 6 what the scope is to give us a fairly detailed update in 7 writing of what it is that you have so that we can come 8 to a consensus on are concluded and then sort of a path 9 forward. Do you expect to need another year? Another 10 month? What is a path forward? How often are you 11 meeting? And things like that in order to come to some 12 resolution within some predetermined plan -- within some 13 predetermined schedule. 14 MS. JAKOBS: This is Diane. And it's 15 interesting, to me a fan would have a motor, but that's 16 apparently not always the case. So I think it -- when I 17 was talking about two groups, so as Rheem as a fan 18 manufacturer, we have a specific application and we know 19 how we're using it; that's like one group. 20 There's a group who build fans for multiple 21 applications, they have application data. There are 22 standards within AMCA that give you this data, so someone 23 can take that fan and use it in their piece of equipment. 24 So probably, you know, it might be a little over -- I 25 don't know, it might be in any specific application, it

## Meeting June 17, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 37 1 would be a lower volume. But the fan manufacturer has to 2 give more general data so that it can be used. 3 And so one of the things with -- AMCA is Air 4 Movement and Controls Association -- but they have a test 5 standard, and one of the things that they have said is 6 that they don't expect any fan designs to be eliminated. 7 That what they hope is that -- what they think will 8 happen is that fan selections will be better. That 9 instead of choosing -- you won't have the option of 10 choosing a low efficiency fan in your application; you'll 11 have to choose the higher efficiency fan. 12 But that low efficiency fan might be right for 13 some other application. So it's more like things 14 shifting in the applications where it -- it's kind of a 15 difficult concept instead of this having one number in 16 like for an air conditioner, everything below 13 SEER 17 just disappears and is gone. This is more like you're 18 not going to use it in Product A, you're only going to be 19 allowed to use it in Product B. It's very, very 20 complicated. 21 MS. MILLER: This is Deborah Miller. Diane, 22 actually -- I'm no longer on that committee because they 23 needed the slot and I felt it was better used for a fan 24 manufacturer, so I do have some questions. 25 Does AMCA -- because I don't remember who AMCA

## Meeting June 17, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 38 1 represents -- do they represent the fan manufacturers 2 like you were saying that represent the ones that do -- 3 that manufacture all sorts of different fans and goes 4 into a variety of applications? 5 MS. JAKOBS: Yes, and they're very interesting. 6 I mean, they're talking about fans for making snow, fans 7 for ventilation in the subway; all kinds, it's industrial 8 and commercial. And, I mean, there's thousands of 9 applications. 10 So in a way, it seems like HVAC is using a lot 11 of the time when there were all these applications, but I 12 guess in the number of fans that are actually used, 13 it's -- someone has said that it's like 50 percent. So 14 when you think, most of the fans in the world are used in 15 moving air for HVAC equipment. 16 MS. MILLER: So has the committee talked about 17 what's in versus what's out? 18 MS. JAKOBS: A lot. 19 MS. MILLER: Yeah, so I mean, then the question 20 becomes just how important are those other ones that 21 aren't in as far as energy use goes? And again, I don't 22 know the industry very well. 23 MS. JAKOBS: Well, I mean, one of the things is 24 the terms sheet that we just approved said that the HVAC 25 equipment should be excluded from the fan and blower in

## Meeting June 17, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 39 1 some limited way. But -- so hopefully that will move the 2 discussion forward in the -- for the other applications, 3 the other half. 4 MS. MILLER: It's Deborah again. Do we have a 5 deadline? At least have we set one internally on the 6 scope side where we said, "We have to make the scope by 7 such and such date. We're going to have to make some 8 hard decisions"? 9 MR. deLASKI: I think the overall deadline for 10 the committee is August 15th. 11 MS. JAKOBS: Right. 12 MR. deLASKI: I hesitate to say you've got to do 13 scope first. I mean, you've got to do scope first, but 14 ultimately it's a package. Everything has to sort of fit 15 together: Maybe I'm okay with the scope if the 16 stringency is like this. Whereas, if the 17 stringency is -- like Diane described where nothing is 18 being eliminated, maybe I'm okay with having that thing 19 in, I just have to be able to be in a compliant range 20 which speaks so much to the complexity of the topic. 21 My concern with this committee -- and I talked 22 with several people who are on the committee -- is that 23 my concern is that the committee's spinning its wheels. 24 The reports that I'm getting is there's a lot of long 25 discussions and not a lot of bringing issues to the --

## Meeting June 17, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 40 1 calling the questions, so to speak. I mean, this is what 2 I think Deborah's getting at. At some point you've got 3 to start asking questions. As opposed to presentations 4 that sort of skip from one topic to the other. 5 There's three more meetings. And I actually 6 suggested that nothing's really been decided yet. So 7 that, to me, is an alarm. And I, for one, will be very 8 hesitant to extend the working group that doesn't make 9 enormous progress in the next three meetings. If the 10 working group comes back and says, "Look, we've got the 11 scope about nailed down. We know what our metric is" -- 12 that's the second thing I want to know: Is the metric 13 decided upon or are you still arguing about the metric? 14 If that's the case, then we're really in trouble; right? 15 And are we -- are we zeroing in on making decisions about 16 the levels or how is that going to work? 17 If that's not the case, my inclination would 18 be -- this is a big working group, 25 people. We had 19 16 -- 25 people and three or four caucuses, right. So we 20 had two sort of caucuses, so to speak. This is a more 21 complex situation which means that having a negotiation 22 makes good sense, but it also means that things can lock 23 up. And if they're locked up, then I'm not inclined -- I 24 personally am not inclined to extend it. I'd want to 25 hear, you know, some evidence.

## Meeting June 17, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 41 1 And John maybe you can describe what's it mean 2 to be locked up. I think scope -- progress on scope -- 3 maybe not final votes, but at least we've had temperature 4 checks. At least we know you've got some tentative 5 agreements and we've got a metric," those are, to me, 6 would be two things I want to know are locked down or 7 close to locked down. 8 MS. MILLER: It's Deborah. The members probably 9 know this intuitively and excuse me for putting it like 10 this, but if this doesn't work out, they'll have much 11 less input in the regular regulatory process. And people 12 sort of have to come to Jesus about that, you know? This 13 is the ability for them to negotiate face-to-face and 14 have to make some really hard decisions, and it's tough. 15 But they may not have that level of input if we go back 16 to the standard rulemaking procedures. So they really 17 have to be pushed hard, and a lot of these people have 18 never been through this before, this is all new to them. 19 MS. ARMSTRONG: So this is Ashley. The point's 20 been made by a number of different people in the rooms 21 that those -- that's the opposite side of this, right. 22 The DOE does have every intention of moving forward with 23 a fans rule, a fans proposed rule, and we hope to be able 24 to accomplish that with the working group and a terms 25 sheet.

## Meeting June 17, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 42 1 But as Andrew said, I mean, I think if we're not 2 at the point of -- in my opinion, and I've been part of 3 these meetings -- and if we're not at the point of 4 actually talking about levels in terms of, you know, by 5 August when we are asking, I -- I think you all need to 6 really strongly consider if we're ever going to get 7 there. 8 MR. deLASKI: My advice back to the committee -- 9 this is Andrew again -- is to reach agreement by 10 August 15th. At this point, I'm surely not going to 11 entertain an extension. No one's asked for one today, 12 but I think the committee should work together to 13 consensus by August 15th as was originally decided by 14 this parent committee, and you know, would we entertain 15 an extension of a meeting if these metrics are met. 16 But, you know, I'm thinking maybe a meeting as 17 opposed to -- I'm not thinking six months for sure. I'm 18 not thinking doubling the term. Because if you haven't 19 made progress in the first six months, why would I expect 20 progress in the next, you know, unless you've showed 21 something. 22 MS. JAKOBS: This is Diane. And I don't think 23 the meetings have been held up by the people that have 24 not been regulated before. It's the people who are 25 regulated and have been regulated for decades. So the --

## Meeting June 17, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 43 1 and part of the issue is that those people are not 2 familiar with the metric that has been proposed. So we 3 have the metrics we know and love, and this is an 4 additional metric, a new metric, one we never tested. 5 MR. deLASKI: This is curve; this is the curve. 6 MS. ARMSTRONG: No, I know which group it is. 7 MS. JAKOBS: Yeah, so that's the concern. And 8 it's -- the people who are regulated know how important 9 it is and how it will affect our business and all the 10 downstream issues, and the metric that's being proposed 11 is not one we're familiar with. 12 MR. deLASKI: So hopefully this -- I mean, I'm 13 hopeful that the recommendation that we just approved 14 that relates to this docket will help, hopefully, give 15 some impetus to clear through some of the scope issues 16 and find a way forward. 17 And the last comment I want to make is that I 18 think we, as the parent committee, so we have an 19 obligation to sort of defend this process, right. We 20 don't want to see this reg-neg process used as a tool for 21 delay or for skirting the agency's regulatory authority 22 and requirements. So that's really my fundamental 23 concern is that it not become a mechanism that someone 24 says, "Okay. I can get a reg-neg and I can sort of drag 25 this thing out." And that's not going to happen.

## Meeting June 17, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 44 1 MS. JAKOBS: So this is Diane. There is one 2 issue in the NODA, it did say -- I don't know exactly 3 what the wording was, but it was interpreted that HVAC 4 equipment would not be included, and subsequently, we 5 have been included. 6 So from my point of view, it was something we 7 thought we didn't have to worry about, but we have. So 8 over and over it's like, you're coming to the table late, 9 "Yeah, we're late and we don't know." You know, and we 10 haven't been negotiating for multiple years ahead of 11 this. 12 But so this -- the terms sheet, I mean, it's 13 asking that HVAC rooftop units be excluded -- commercial 14 rooftop units. But there are all kinds of air handler 15 that are used with chillers, there are multiple 16 products -- there are a lot of AHRI products that will be 17 covered, and we're going -- we're working through that, 18 we're trying to figure out, we're trying to identify and 19 provide sales data. 20 MR. deLASKI: Just want to -- probably should 21 move along here pretty soon. But I want to -- we need to 22 be careful about the terminology. The terms sheet 23 approved says that, "fans whose energy consumption is 24 reflected in the metric should not be" -- it's our 25 recommendation -- "would not be covered by the fan

## Meeting June 17, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 45 1 regulation." 2 So HVAC equipment, as you rightly say, is much 3 broader universe of equipment. So the recommendation was 4 not to exempt all HVAC equipment, it was to say if your 5 fan energy consumption is covered by the IEER metric in 6 some way, then that particular fan would get -- needs to 7 be considered -- you know, you need to consider how 8 that's going to be covered, and now we have this issue 9 that's going to be covered. And now we have this issue, 10 it's very complicated, it's an important issue, and this 11 was discussed on Monday as we approved the terms sheet. 12 Say you sell your fan, hey, you're a fan 13 manufacturer and you sell your fan. So I show up, a 14 container of fans come into the port of L.A., and you 15 don't know where those fans are going to go. Those fans, 16 as we discussed on Monday, would need to comply with the 17 fan regulation because they might end up on a rooftop 18 unit, but that's an application and the fan manufacturer 19 would need to comply. 20 So that was a -- again, now we're getting to 21 the details which we probably don't need to do today. 22 But I want to be careful when you say HVAC fans don't 23 have to comply, that was not the recommendation. It was 24 more narrowly constructed as carefully negotiated in 25 those three sentences.

## Meeting June 17, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 46 1 MS. JAKOBS: Yeah, I was trying to say that, and 2 I agree 100 percent. 3 MR. deLASKI: All right. Questions? 4 MS. JAKOBS: So where do we go from here? 5 MR. CASKEY: John Caskey. I guess having been 6 involved with a lot of different organizations, I mean 7 some they're purposely sort of almost designed to not 8 make progress. I mean, I hope that this one isn't in 9 that area, but thinking about facilitators and things 10 like that, is there any sort of change in a facilitator 11 or personalities that would help move this thing along 12 that we could have recommended or be involved with that 13 might be a better fit for this organization or is it just 14 the fact that's taking a while for these people to get to 15 know one another to help move in the same direction? 16 MS. JAKOBS: This is Diane. I think the terms 17 sheet is going to make a change or disrupt what we've 18 been doing. So I think next week will be different 19 because of what we did today. I'm not sure about will it 20 be the savior of the process, but yeah, I don't -- 21 MR. deLASKI: Kelley? 22 MS. KLINE: And Diane, this is Kelley, why is 23 that? Is that because it's going to define the scope? 24 What does that -- help me understand what that solves. 25 MS. JAKOBS: There are a group of people who say

## Meeting June 17, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 47 1 we're already regulated and a fan is only in a component, 2 and if we have a system -- well, it's part about what 3 we've been working on within this committee ourselves 4 with systems versus individual components. 5 So -- so if you have a system that a fan is a 6 component in and you have a target for an efficiency 7 level that's regulated, if you have to increase the 8 efficiency of one component, what stops the manufacturer 9 from just taking cost out of another component so you end 10 up at the same target for the system even though one 11 component is regulated? So there's no savings, then, 12 depending on how you look at it. And I guess I lost my 13 train of thought on that one. So the people building 14 systems who have had regulated systems, they see no 15 benefit, it only limits their design choices. And 16 there's additional testing, additional expense. 17 There's an issue about what Andrew was talking 18 about for Rheem, we have built our own fan assemblies, 19 but other companies have come to us and pitched -- or 20 they wanted to sell us an assembly instead of just 21 components of a fan, just a wheel or a fan blade, they 22 want to send us a whole assembly which has advantages. 23 It could be more efficient because you can balance fan 24 all together and you can actually make it work 25 together -- work better if you balance it all as an

## Meeting June 17, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 48 1 assembly as opposed to just putting some balanced 2 components together and hope it all works out later. So 3 there are advantages, but there's still -- I mean, we're 4 still talking about who's a fan manufacturer. 5 MS. KLINE: But then what does the terms sheet 6 answer for you that solves that? That's what I'm -- 7 MS. ARMSTRONG: Just to -- 8 MS. JAKOBS: You want to go ahead? 9 MS. ARMSTRONG: -- to bridge the gap. For the 10 fans that end up being embedded in air-cooled commercial 11 AC equipment greater than 75, less than 60, it has a 12 recommendation to the working group to consider those 13 fans out of scope for potential test procedures and 14 standards; just for that equipment. 15 There is other embedded fans and embedded 16 equipment that are still going to be on the table and we 17 are going to still have to deal with those issues. And 18 there's a caveat around that exclusion, and the caveat is 19 the fans group needs to figure out a way to administer 20 that in a manner that doesn't provide loopholes, so 21 that's going to be a challenge. 22 But it at least gets you -- it gets an 23 indication to the committee that we don't have to talk 24 about anymore -- at least those -- what's in and out. We 25 need to talk about, can we find a way to administer that

## Meeting June 17, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 49 1 properly that the whole working group can agree to. 2 MS. KLINE: So they're saying for a certain 3 class it will be regulated (inaudible)? 4 MS. ARMSTRONG: Yes. So there's some challenges 5 associated with that, and like I said, there's a lot of 6 other equipment that this still applies to and those 7 discussions of the scope will still need to be had. 8 One of the things I think we are going to try to 9 do, though, is push through some of the larger issues and 10 talk about the set of exclusions perhaps last. Because 11 as Andrew said, it's a package deal, and -- but I think 12 it would help from this committee if we told them, you 13 know, they have to make some real progress, you know. To 14 your question about, "Well, what's the punchline here?" 15 If we were to send back a message through Diane that the 16 committee's interested in seeing some real votes on 17 metric and on, you know, certain provisions of test 18 procedures and on certain provisions of scope or 19 administration or something. I mean, it's not a terms 20 sheet, and ultimately the package will have to be 21 approved as a whole if they can get there. But don't 22 think about coming back to ask on August 5th or whatever 23 we said if we haven't been able to vote anything out yet. 24 MS. KLINE: I guess what I was kind of listening 25 to the discussion and struggling with a little bit is,

## Meeting June 17, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 50 1 I've not been able to get a grasp on what the substantive 2 issues are here really. That folks aren't coming here 3 other than complexity, and I think that would be hopeful 4 to understand, and maybe the committee needs some 5 direction on that to help them -- or the work group needs 6 some direction on that to help them break through some of 7 those log jams. You know, I mean -- it doesn't -- I 8 don't get a great sense about what the roadblocks are. 9 MS. JAKOBS: So this is Diane. And so my 10 refrigerator stopped working a couple weeks ago, and I 11 just took it apart; it was frozen. So it's like -- 12 there's a little evaporator fan, and we're talking about 13 regulating that component in your refrigerator. So I 14 would think that a refrigerator designer wouldn't see any 15 benefit there. 16 It's just -- so one of the things in the 17 negotiations is there's been -- and I still not clear if 18 this one horsepower and above thing is for real or not. 19 MS. ARMSTRONG: Because we haven't voted on 20 anything. 21 MS. KLINE: May I interrupt you for just a 22 second? 23 MS. JAKOBS: Because your fan could be -- 24 MS. KLINE: Just to play devil's advocate for a 25 second, why isn't that a fairly simple question to test,

## Meeting June 17, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 51 1 why haven't you had consensus on that or not? "Should 2 those components be regulated, yes or no?" We go forward 3 and see if we have consensus on that from that point on. 4 To me, that does not seem like a complicated 5 question. And for what it's worth, my position would be 6 that they should not be. You know, it should be 7 regulated as the end product, right. But to me that 8 doesn't seem like something that should be -- 9 MR. deLASKI: So I think -- and Ashley's in the 10 working group and she's actually brought up some pretty 11 detailed language to try to do what you just said. And 12 so there's been an attempt by the agency to come forward 13 with a proposal. I think it's going to come to a head on 14 Monday and Tuesday. 15 MS. ARMSTRONG: I have to doubt it's going to 16 come to a head on Monday and Tuesday. 17 So I think on Monday and Tuesday we're going to 18 know, either we can get past and we can start voting out 19 some things, or we can't. And if we can't I think that, 20 you know, the message on Monday morning from ASRAC should 21 be, you know, ASRAC is really -- I think depending on 22 what we all, you know, feel -- but I think ASRAC is 23 potentially hesitant of just, you know, giving you more 24 time unless you can show some real progress. And part of 25 that progress needs to be starting to accumulate records

## Meeting June 17, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 52 1 of votes, and if those records of votes can't end up with 2 anything that's consensus over a multiple-day period of 3 time on a variety of different issues, then -- 4 MS. JAKOBS: It won't be extended. 5 MS. ARMSTRONG: Right. So I mean, I don't know 6 that we need to talk about all the details with regards 7 to any more of the fans stuff -- and I know Jen's been 8 waiting to speak for forever and I'm sure others want to 9 speak with regards to this. 10 But I think the message I think we were trying 11 to send to you is that it's been a roller coaster in that 12 line. It could switch and go really well, I mean, I 13 think there's some interest and some genuine people are 14 at the table and they are trying, but I think there's 15 also some others that, you know, each meeting it's a new 16 discussion of well, we haven't had time to consider what 17 DOE put out a couple months ago or we haven't had time, 18 we don't understand, and this, that, and the other. And 19 at some point, you know, we're two months in now. 20 MS. CLEARY: I think I just wanted to say that 21 one thing I would also want to know if we're asked to 22 extend is, is the reason for more time because there's 23 been a deadlock and you just want to keep talking about 24 it or is it because you're starting to make more 25 progress?

## Meeting June 17, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 53 1 So perhaps up until now there hasn't been a lot 2 of progress and there hasn't been a meeting of the minds, 3 but hopefully this will change on Monday and Tuesday. 4 But maybe because of what's happened so far, you still 5 need more time to work, hopefully cooperatively. 6 So what I would really want know -- and I guess 7 it would partly be evidenced by some votes -- but I think 8 there -- I would want to sort of know sort of a 9 temperature check of the room and the atmosphere and is 10 there a willingness to work together and to move forward 11 and that's why more time is necessary to actually come to 12 the agreement. You know, because if it's just going to 13 be locked going forward and you just want more time to 14 talk, then I don't see extending. But otherwise, I would 15 think we might be more willing to extend. 16 MR. deLASKI: So what I want to communicate and 17 I want to make sure we get some free time here as well to 18 discuss miscellaneous refrigeration as well, but what do 19 we want to communicate back to -- to the working group 20 through our rep Diane and Ashley since she's in the 21 working group as well. 22 MS. MILLER: Andrew, I think it's really what 23 Ashley said and what you've been saying is that unless we 24 see some substantial progress which is demonstrated by 25 some votes in consensus on key issues whether they be

## Meeting June 17, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 54 1 scope or levels or whatever that is, we've got to see 2 that. Otherwise, it will not be extended. I mean, I 3 think you sort of have to tell them, it's no, unless -- 4 MR. deLASKI: Right. And it's not a request for 5 an -- 6 MS. MILLER: You may word it differently, but 7 that's the end result. 8 MR. deLASKI: I'm not sure we need a motion, but 9 I think it's a sense of the committee kind of thing as 10 opposed to some formal written motion. I guess I don't 11 want to let them off the hook yet for August 15th yet, 12 either, I'm sure many of them are listening on this open 13 webinar right now. So but my intent is that -- 14 MS. MILLER: We encourage -- 15 MR. deLASKI: -- meet your deadline. 16 MS. MILLER: Meet your deadline. We encourage 17 you to -- 18 MR. deLASKI: First, meet your deadline. 19 MS. MILLER: Right. 20 MR. deLASKI: Progress hasn't been what I hope 21 it would have been by this point. Hopefully we will 22 start seeing now some progress starting on Monday with 23 some real votes. Recognize that they're tentative, 24 everyone's going, the goal's getting to an agreement that 25 you can live with as opposed to an agreement that gets

## Meeting June 17, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 55 1 you everything you want. 2 MS. JAKOBS: This is Diane. I have a question. 3 So Ashley has proposed what we would vote on. Is it 4 restricted to Ashley or -- 5 MR. deLASKI: No, your working group sets its 6 own rules; right? So -- 7 MS. JAKOBS: Okay. 8 MR. deLASKI: I mean, I think there was a 9 request -- as I understood it, there has been a request 10 to the OEMs to help define how we will define these 11 products that you would like to see exempted so that it 12 doesn't become a loophole, right. So I think that 13 challenge was put back to the manufacturers. I don't 14 think there's been a response yet, so that's my 15 understanding. So I think we need to give a little 16 time -- I don't want to shortcut the other topic. 17 MR. HON: This is Charlie Hon. I've been 18 listening to all of this, and there's a lot of 19 similarities and different things I've heard over the 20 years in several of these groups. But one of the things 21 that we also need to consider is if we see progress 22 going, I do not see a great need to extend another three 23 months or something. The best case scenario, I would say 24 is maybe extending another 30 days which would allow a 25 couple more meetings if we're seeing progress and we're

## Meeting June 17, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 56 1 moving forward and the committee is truly moving forward 2 and needs a little bit more time to get things done. But 3 if not, I don't see any -- from what I've heard here is 4 not promising. 5 MS. JAKOBS: So just one more -- sorry. Diane 6 Jakobs -- so fans for commercial refrigeration are 7 covered. 8 MR. HON: Yes, I'm well aware of that and 9 understand it completely because -- 10 MS. JAKOBS: Okay. Good. 11 MR. HON: -- I look at it as two things, number 12 1 you mentioned earlier: Should it be considered in the 13 total package and independently? The answer to me is, I 14 think that's a far gone conclusion because we're not 15 buying a proprietary product which is exclusive to our 16 applications. 17 And in that case, I just -- you pretty much pull 18 us out of the formula. Because with a proprietary 19 product very specifically designed and built for an 20 application, it is a different product than what we would 21 be buying. What we would be buying is considered a 22 commodity-type item, and therefore covered under 23 regulation. So for me to get into that argument is 24 really not valid. 25 MR. deLASKI: Any other final thoughts on this?

## Meeting June 17, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 57 1 I think we've pretty much covered the topic. 2 Let's shift to miscellaneous refrigeration, 3 Charlie and Jen. 4 MS. CLEARY: Okay. Well -- this is Jen -- I 5 guess compared to what we just heard, I actually think 6 the miscellaneous refrigeration negotiation is going very 7 well. A lot of cooperation amongst the stakeholders, we 8 have voted on a number of topics. We've completed -- at 9 least, we have temperature check votes on all of the test 10 procedure issues, the definition issues. And we agreed 11 last week to recommend to the secretary in our -- in our 12 spec sheet that standalone ice makers not be included as 13 miscellaneous refrigeration products, and that was a 14 significant, like, elephant-in-the-room-type topic. 15 So I think that that shows the cooperative 16 spirit there. But it also removes a huge chunk of our 17 potential workload, it removes it from our plate. So we 18 don't have to negotiate now test procedures for ice 19 makers, definitions for ice makers, standards for ice 20 makers. So that certainly makes the rulemaking much less 21 complex. 22 And so you know, our next step -- well, I will 23 note also that DOE was the only no vote on that. But we 24 do have assurances that they'll still support the working 25 group's recommendation. And certainly we're, you know, a

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202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 58 1 good part of our discussion. So now we're ready with our 2 next meeting next month to begin our work on negotiating 3 the standards. 4 DOE's analysis will need some revision because 5 we have established five product classes for cooled 6 cabinets, and we will be working to define product 7 classes for the hybrid, you know, wine chiller 8 refrigerator, wine chiller freezer, multitude of 9 different combinations possible there as well. And so 10 the analysis will need to be revised to reflect that, as 11 well as many of the other comments that were received on 12 the preliminary analysis on lifetimes and things of that 13 nature. 14 So all of that work will still need to be done, 15 and so I think it will remain to be seen whether the 16 working group will be needing the additional month or two 17 months that we approved for them. But right now, I think 18 we're looking to be -- and Charlie, let me know if you 19 agree -- I think we're looking to be on schedule to 20 finish at the end of August unless, you know, the 21 analysis were to take longer for some reason. You know, 22 what needs to go into that analysis, as well as a lot of 23 data that will come from AHAM members, as well as I 24 assume other manufacturers on the products. 25 So in any case, I hope that we will finish on

## Meeting June 17, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 59 1 time. If you remember, we did a tier deadline for 2 miscellaneous refrigeration which was the four months 3 initial and then the possibility to extend two. But 4 we're working very hard to meet the four-month deadline, 5 and I anticipate we will. 6 MR. HON: This is Charlie Hon. I agree with 7 everything Jen said. There was also some very 8 interesting discussions from the house counsel for the 9 DOE on what the house -- what the DOE's possible 10 alternate scenarios were, and I think that was part of 11 the reasons people could come to clarity. We got good, 12 clear definitions from certain groups of, "What are the 13 ramifications if we do this?" Then this. If we do this, 14 then this. 15 And when we got the clarifications, then it 16 became understandable for groups of people, and there was 17 basically the energy efficiency people and manufacturers, 18 obvious divisions in approach, but they understand where 19 the scope, the risk factors, the exposure factors really 20 are. And when people have that, I think they can come to 21 clearer decisions. That's one of the things that was 22 very positive about it, people were able to come to a 23 concise and clear decision on yes or no, we're going to 24 do this. 25 And the votes, if you look at the votes, there

## Meeting June 17, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 60 1 was -- all the straw voting we were doing, everything 2 else was -- I think we had one or two negative votes on 3 all the different votes we took in total, including the 4 one from the DOE on the removal from the scope of the 5 project. But it's coming to -- it is very encouraging to 6 see groups of people who are coming from different 7 viewpoints, different desires, different needs for their 8 organizational systems, to be able to sit down in a room 9 and come to a logical and reasonable numbers and 10 reasonable consideration for the whole project. And it's 11 really, very encouraging when I see that. 12 MR. deLASKI: Other questions for Jen or 13 Charlie? 14 MS. JAKOBS: This is Diane, just a question. So 15 Andrew said like the HVAC equipment had two groups and 16 they were doing the caucusing but coming back. And -- 17 are -- how many groups do you have? Or it sounds like 18 you don't -- maybe don't have groups or -- it seems like 19 a different dynamic, maybe. 20 MS. CLEARY: Yeah, we only have one group. I 21 think at the last meeting we did develop a couple of very 22 short-term working groups to work on things like hybrid 23 product classes. And basically so we just wouldn't stall 24 out on issues during the meetings to come to the next 25 meeting with proposals that the group could discuss. But

## Meeting June 17, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 61 1 I don't think that's similar to what maybe Andrew was 2 describing where there were sort of more defined working 3 groups on product or anything; we don't have that. 4 And in fact, as it turns out, we really have 5 narrowed the scope considerably by pushing ice makers 6 out. And also -- just for complex reasons we don't need 7 to discuss here -- the non-compressor refrigerators which 8 were originally part of this still are part of it, but in 9 a different way that doesn't necessitate them being 10 treated separately. So that has really narrowed our 11 focus, and I don't think we really need the groups. 12 MS. JAKOBS: So just one more question about the 13 ice makers. So when you voted them off the island or 14 whatever, does that mean they won't be regulated or you 15 just don't want to talk about them in your working group? 16 MS. CLEARY: What DOE -- the recommendation is 17 that they not be included in the scope of coverage as a 18 miscellaneous refrigeration product. So that would mean 19 they will not be covered as part of this rulemaking. 20 That does not mean, however, that the department couldn't 21 decide to cover them individually or in some other 22 aspect. But right now, yes, it means they won't be 23 covered. 24 MR. HON: This is Charlie Hon. DOE also 25 discussed the possibility, because under the commercial

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202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 62 1 ice makers which are regulated already, they could extend 2 the scope of coverage. Right now, commercial ice making 3 ends at -- it basically goes at 50 pounds per day of ice 4 generation to 2,500 pounds per day of ice generation, and 5 it goes into an industrial and totally different. But 6 for the commercial, that's the category. 7 The DOE is considering the option of possibly 8 extending the scope of coverage under the commercial ice 9 makers, but that's an -- that's an understanding we all 10 know. It was discussed in the meeting, it was clear what 11 the options were. The DOE counsel told us what the 12 options were. 13 Number 1 is that we make recommendation from -- 14 to ASRAC. ASRAC makes recommendation to the secretary. 15 The secretary does not have to accept our 16 recommendations. If the secretary deems it necessary to 17 leave them in the group, they can stay in and then DOE 18 will have to function as a -- the normal rulemaking 19 process to add -- go back and finalize that portion of 20 the rule. 21 And we are -- we're all in understanding of 22 what's going on, and its been laid out quite clearly and 23 as such. Everyone understands what the different 24 potential issues we face are. And it was voted to 25 exclude them because it didn't seem -- we were not

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202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 63 1 getting anywhere with the rest of it. It was a very 2 strong opinion of most of the people in the room that it 3 is workable without that, so we made that decision. 4 But I have one other question for you, Diane. 5 Did you ask a question about the different groups? Am I 6 interpreting that question as different factions within 7 the committee? 8 MS. JAKOBS: Yes, so we had manufacturers and 9 energy advocates. 10 MR. HON: Okay. This is Charlie Hon again. We 11 had three basic factions of the groups. We have the 12 major players in the home refrigeration markets of today. 13 We have no representation from the thermal electric 14 groups because no one's chosen to come to the table 15 except for one home supplier who markets them; they don't 16 manufacture. We have a group of independent crossovers 17 between the commercial and the residential markets, a 18 group of us in that level, and we also have the energy 19 advocate groups. 20 So basically we have three groups active and one 21 group not represented, even though we've tried to get 22 representation. There's very slight representation from 23 one supplier who has marketing interest, but not 24 manufacturing interest. 25 MS. JAKOBS: So to me, the dynamics sound

## Meeting June 17, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 64 1 like -- I feel like we're the elephant in the room, you 2 know, for the fans and blowers. And we -- we didn't -- 3 we're pretty -- trying to insist that that be addressed 4 before other -- other issues are allowed to go by. 5 Sounds like your group, you put the ice makers 6 on the side and then worked on all the other things. So 7 it was kind of two ways that maybe it could have been 8 handled and, you know, we talked about both, and it's 9 difficult to see people, you know, making the same 10 effort, same expense, showing up at the meetings and 11 they're never on topic because some other group is 12 dominating the -- 13 MR. HON: This is Charlie Hon again. 14 MS. JAKOBS: -- this discussion. 15 MR. HON: That is exactly why we voted them off 16 the table, they were becoming an elephant in the room 17 that we couldn't cope with. And we had to go forward 18 because we have a project here that needs to be 19 completed, and there's definite need for action, and we 20 can do as much action as we can get done. So we have to 21 prioritize what can we do and what can't we do. 22 MS. JAKOBS: So in a way, I mean, you're showing 23 that as being, you know, a successful, functional working 24 group. But in a way, you took part of your assignment 25 and put it on the side.

## Meeting June 17, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 65 1 MR. deLASKI: Based on a vote that had one no 2 vote -- a pretty important no vote -- so it isn't like 3 they've found the way forward with a no vote. 4 But again, the other thought to me, everyone 5 else on that committee voted yes. So as Charlie 6 described, that's the decision that that committee made 7 on not a 100 percent basis, but close to it. 8 MS. CLEARY: And this is Jen. I wouldn't say 9 that we only voted it out because of difficulty, you 10 know. I mean -- 11 MR. HON: Me too. 12 MS. CLEARY: -- that was not my reasoning, 13 actually. So I think my reasoning was because the energy 14 savings opportunities are very small and AHAM members 15 were able to present data demonstrating that the 16 opportunities were much smaller than DOE had indicated in 17 its proposed rule. 18 And so our view was that it was not 19 appropriately covered and, you know, I can't speak for 20 the advocates as to why they decided to vote to exclude 21 it, but I hope that they saw the smaller energy savings. 22 So that was another element to it. 23 MR. deLASKI: We're about five minutes behind 24 schedule, so I would like to take up our next topic if we 25 can finish this one. Any other questions or comments for

## Meeting June 17, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 66 1 Jen and Charlie? To complete your task in four months 2 and not take your extra time would be, I believe, much 3 appreciated by the parent committee. 4 MR. HON: I think we're on track for that 5 schedule. I think we're going to use all of our dates -- 6 I think one at the last meeting was proposed as an 7 optional, but I think we're going to use it, but I think 8 we are going to be done on time. 9 MR. deLASKI: And I think you had the same 10 facilitators, the federal mediation folks who we had for 11 the commercial AC that did a very nice job on commercial 12 AC and furnaces, helped to move things ahead with a 13 pretty effective, but still -- light but effective hand. 14 Our next topic -- and then after this one, we'll 15 take our lunch break -- is working group request from 16 AHRI and Lennox to create a working group for central air 17 conditioners -- residential central air conditioners and 18 heat pumps. 19 This is the one new potential working group been 20 recommended to the committee. And so we have letters 21 from AHRI and Lennox, and I think letters were submitted 22 yesterday by HARDI and ACCA, so the distributors and 23 contractors associations. 24 Do we want to give Karim a chance to describe 25 your letter and your request? And then I'll -- Lennox is

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202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 67 1 not here. 2 MR. AMRANE: Sure, this is Karim with AHRI. Of 3 course we're requesting this committee to consider 4 establishing a working group to negotiate the central 5 AC -- residential central AC rulemaking. 6 We feel that while there has been two iterations 7 of this rule in the past since they were first regulated 8 by DOE, and in two times in those two cases those 9 rulemakings were challenged in court. So we feel that 10 given the complexity now of the standards because now we 11 have regional standards, the complexity of the analysis 12 and the history of the rule being challenged in court, 13 that having a working group through ASRAC will be the 14 best option to reach consensus among all the parties. 15 So that's what we feel that it's -- that this 16 committee should give it full consideration. So I -- I'd 17 be happy to answer any question specifically that you 18 have, but we feel that given the history and given the 19 complexity that that's a good rule to be negotiated. 20 MS. JAKOBS: I'd like to comment; I say hear, 21 hear. I think that the manufacturers understand the 22 importance of getting consensus now, as Karim said, 23 because of what has been the history. And I would just 24 simply say I think it would be something that we would 25 support.

## Meeting June 17, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 68 1 MR. deLASKI: And the Lennox letter, I think 2 references some outreach to my organization and some 3 outreach to ACEEE on this topic as well, and we've been 4 supportive as indicated in Lennox's letter to move this 5 to a reg-neg. 6 Charlie, do you want to say anything? And if 7 HARDI's on the phone, I'll give them a chance to voice 8 their view. 9 MR. McCRUDDEN: This is Charlie with ACCA. 10 Yeah, I think given what Karim said of the history here, 11 I think this is a ripe rulemaking to go through a 12 reg-neg. I think based on the experience I just had with 13 commercial warm air furnaces and commercial coolant, 14 having -- if we can have the consultants available as we 15 did before, I think that would be helpful. 16 One thing I would add, I guess, is that I think 17 we have plenty of time in this case. And as we sort of 18 stack up some of these working groups, it may be 19 beneficial to sort of look at giving folks plenty of time 20 to meet because I think -- I don't know what the carrying 21 capacity on DOE is in terms of working groups, but on 22 industry's side, it may be one that -- something to 23 consider. 24 So it looks like Ashley might say something, so 25 I'll stop talking.

## Meeting June 17, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 69 1 MR. deLASKI: Let's -- we'll come to timing I 2 think -- when we come to -- let's talk about timing in a 3 few minutes here. 4 Is John Mandyck or HARDI on the phone? 5 MS. ARMSTRONG: I don't know, but Dave from 6 Lennox is. He should be unmuted if he wants to speak. 7 MR. deLASKI: Dave, do you want to? 8 MR. WINNINGHAM: Yeah, this is Dave Winningham 9 representing Lennox. I concur with what Charlie's 10 requesting in regard to in that I think we need to look 11 at the timing on this. 12 The other issue is the test procedure, may want 13 to look at tackling test procedure at the front end 14 before we start talking about the (inaudible) and I 15 apologize for the -- 16 MR. deLASKI: Dave, we hear you loud and clear. 17 Are you finished? 18 MR. WINNINGHAM: Yes. 19 MR. deLASKI: And is HARDI on the phone? Okay. 20 So those are the representatives who have asked 21 for the working group. Karim, do you want to make a 22 point? 23 MR. AMRANE: Yes, just a point -- this is Karim 24 with AHRI -- on the test procedure. AHRI has been 25 working on a revision to the test procedures for two

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202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 70 1 years now, and -- but we don't know what DOE's intent is 2 with respect to the test procedure. So -- and I 3 understand, and maybe Ashley could confirm here, that 4 DOE's planning to make significant changes to test 5 procedure which will impact, I believe, the rating, the 6 metric that we are regulating. 7 And if that's the case -- and I think that's 8 what Dave is talking about -- makes a lot of sense that 9 we should have discussion on test procedure before even 10 we start talking about the energy efficiency levels. 11 MS. ARMSTRONG: So DOE has been working on a 12 test procedure for quite a while as well for these 13 products. DOE is considering some changes that are 14 clarification in nature, and some larger changes in that 15 test procedure rule. DOE does not believe that the test 16 procedure needs to be part of the negotiated rulemaking. 17 DOE plans to put out the test procedure before the 18 commencement of the -- at least the proposed rule before 19 the commencement of the negotiated rulemaking so that all 20 interested parties will have that available to them. And 21 obviously we can move to talk about scheduling and how 22 that would look like, but at least DOE is committed to 23 put in. 24 The committee should know before we talk about 25 timelines that DOE has also been working on analysis for

## Meeting June 17, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 71 1 central air conditioners. We will be in a position to 2 put out draft analyses for the committee to use in its 3 negotiation, at least as a starting point for the 4 discussions in terms of what our analysis would look 5 like, what are some of the assumptions, what are some of 6 the data elements that we can go through similar to what 7 was done for others. And then obviously, you know, make 8 our consultants available, as well as DOE to talk through 9 those and revise as we go along accordingly. 10 So from DOE's perspective -- I don't know if you 11 want to talk about schedule yet or if you want to talk 12 about scope or if we even want to get to the part where, 13 you know, does ASRAC think it's a good idea first before 14 we talk about schedule and scope. But I think we are 15 ready to move on this one, and we don't want to see this 16 one -- we are supportive of a negotiated rule as well 17 from the department's perspective. 18 That being said, I think we are also supportive 19 of forming that committee relatively soon and getting 20 that one underway. We have the resources available, we 21 have the analysis that we've been working on, and we're 22 ready to begin those discussions. So we're hoping that 23 we can get that one at least the discussion started, you 24 know, not too far in the future. 25 MR. deLASKI: As a point of information, I would

## Meeting June 17, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 72 1 point folks to the regulatory agenda. And under the 2 regulatory agenda, DOE has a published schedule calls for 3 a proposed rule calls to be issued in July. 4 FEMALE SPEAKER: Is that for test procedure? 5 MR. deLASKI: No, on the standard. 6 MS. ARMSTRONG: Could I ask -- 7 MR. deLASKI: Let me finish my point of 8 information. 9 And then a final rule, according to the 10 regulatory agenda, is scheduled for May of 2016. Okay? 11 So this is the published sort of what the government's 12 sort of currently published schedule is. Now, what I 13 just heard from Ashley is the willingness to publish an 14 analysis in a support for a reg-neg. So obviously that 15 would change that schedule but, you know, that's the 16 current schedule. 17 MS. ARMSTRONG: Also from Ashley, as one point 18 of clarification, we're willing to do that such that the 19 timelines are set by ASRAC, the scope is set by ASRAC, 20 and it gets started sooner rather than later, realizing 21 that the department's committed to get the test procedure 22 out next month. 23 MR. deLASKI: So let's keep on the -- 24 MS. JAKOBS: Can I ask a quick question? 25 MR. deLASKI: Sure.

## Meeting June 17, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 73 1 MS. JAKOBS: This is Diane from Rheem. So are 2 you saying in the analysis you assumed that the proposed 3 changes to the test procedure would be in place? 4 Ashley's nodding her head yes. Okay. Thank 5 you. 6 MR. deLASKI: So clearly the test method is 7 close to seeing the light of day is my inference from 8 this discussion, and that clearly that would need to 9 happen in advance of any meetings, and it seems to be -- 10 MS. ARMSTRONG: Yeah, and we have some process 11 things to go through in terms of soliciting nominations, 12 getting the package together, ASRAC setting up a meeting 13 to approve the people, getting, you know, you're still a 14 good 30 to 60 days out from that stuff even happening 15 before the first meeting can commence. So it's not like 16 we're looking at tomorrow, but for us to get started with 17 that, realistically it needs to happen sooner than later. 18 MR. deLASKI: Right. So let's stay on sort of 19 the merits of the idea before we get into the merits -- 20 into the questions of timing, but the merits of putting 21 it to a reg-neg, Jen? 22 MS. CLEARY: Well, I guess in my view, the 23 merits of the idea are very connected to the merits of 24 the timing -- or to the timing, because I find it would 25 be very difficult to negotiate standards without knowing

## Meeting June 17, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 74 1 what the test procedure changes will be. And in fact, 2 that's not consistent with the process improvement rule 3 and I don't expect that to be consistent with 4 recommendations that this very body will be making to DOE 5 and will discuss later today. 6 So I'm very supportive of a working group to 7 negotiate standards. But at the same time, I would find 8 it difficult to approve something where the basis for 9 that negotiation would be uncertain. Certainly I don't 10 expect that manufacturers would be able to effectively 11 talk about levels if they haven't been able to do any 12 testing on their products. So you know, in the process 13 improvement rule, "modifications to the test procedure 14 are to be proposed before issuance of an advanced NOPR," 15 which I recognize the department doesn't always do now. 16 However, it also indicates that, "final test procedures 17 are to be issued before the NOPR." 18 So I'm trying to think about how that relates to 19 this process, and I would think that if the outcome of a 20 standards negotiation is a proposed rule, that I would 21 see the parallel suggestion being -- or process being 22 that the test procedure ought to be finalized. So to me, 23 that would maybe support what I think I heard Karim 24 saying, which is that the test procedure should be also 25 part of the negotiation and should be finalized before

## Meeting June 17, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 75 1 the discussion moves to what the standards can be. I 2 don't see how any rational standards analysis can proceed 3 any other way. 4 MS. ARMSTRONG: So can I ask a question? Are 5 you having problems in your working group right now? 6 Your test procedure is not finalized for MREFs. You 7 wanted to talk about some of it. It's going to be moved 8 to be finalized while you're still negotiating. But you 9 said -- I think what I heard you say earlier was that you 10 are in a position to talk about analysis and levels 11 without an issue and that's not finalized. 12 MS. CLEARY: But what I also just said was that 13 I think that the test procedure should be discussed as 14 part of the negotiation, which is exactly what we've done 15 at MREFs so we have a sense of what that finalized test 16 procedure will look like as far as it will impact 17 measured energy. So I don't see the two being different. 18 If there were any question about how the test 19 procedure would be finalized, I would have a different 20 view in MREF as well. I would have the same concerns, 21 and in fact, that has been raised I think in AHAM's 22 comments on that rulemaking. Also, I don't know -- I 23 think also the issues in the MREFs test procedure are 24 certainly understood as to how they would impact measured 25 energy if they went one way or another way; I don't know

## Meeting June 17, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 76 1 if the same is true here. 2 It sort of sounds to me like maybe not everyone 3 knows what changes the department is even planning to 4 propose. So I think that it sounds, like I said, like a 5 very different status there. 6 MS. JAKOBS: So this is Diane Jakobs from Rheem, 7 and our products are covered by these rulemakings, and we 8 support the forming of the ASRAC working group. We 9 certainly prefer to work on the test procedure first or 10 at least that they could be discussed together. So 11 they're interlocking, you know, it's difficult to 12 separate them. 13 MR. CASKEY: John Caskey, NEMA. Certainly from 14 the organizations that are supporting moving forward with 15 the working group for this technology, you know, I 16 support that and it sounds like it makes sense. I think 17 trying to get the test procedure squared away before the 18 negotiated rulemaking process is a great step in the 19 right direction that we've talked about. You know, how 20 do we connect up the test procedures with the regulations 21 a little bit better in terms of timing than we've done in 22 the past? I'm a little -- with that said, so I'm 23 99 percent supportive of everything. 24 I'm a little concerned that if we're showing and 25 what you presented earlier, Andrew, was the

## Meeting June 17, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 77 1 recommendations of the first, you know, the commercial 2 air conditioning and what is that -- furnace, you know, 3 that how well the negotiating rulemaking process worked 4 and how we're creating a better product as a result of 5 that interaction. And then -- but then we sort of go to 6 a certain extent backwards dealing with the test 7 procedures. It sounds like they're being worked on 8 primarily worked through DOE, and I don't know how much 9 interaction is going on with the industry while that's 10 occurring. 11 So I would love -- you know, it would be great 12 if in the future we would be at some point we get to the 13 point of the industry being involved with the test 14 procedure definition and working them out, and then go 15 into the negotiated rulemaking process relative to the 16 rule itself. 17 So again, I'm just a little bit puzzled why 18 we're not -- I don't know how much interaction there's 19 been during that process. 20 MR. WINNINGHAM: This is Dave with Lennox. As 21 Karim had mentioned, there has been work within the 22 industry to update the test procedures from the 23 perspective. DOE has been invited to those meetings and 24 has participated to some extent, but I would not say that 25 there's been a meaningful exchange at this point.

## Meeting June 17, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 78 1 In regards to the changes that ASHRAE 2 (inaudible) we are not aware of, you know, of those 3 (inaudible) at this point. 4 MS. ARMSTRONG: So in my defense a little, I 5 have been participating in 210/240 quite a bit, Dave. I 6 did go to those meetings and I did provide some pretty 7 substantial feedback, including raising some of the 8 larger issues that DOE is considering in the rule for 9 which some of which the committee declined to address. 10 So that being said, also, we put out another 11 test procedure for another product; I think that gives 12 you a pretty good indication of what the department's 13 position is on some of the rating conditions for your 14 products. So that's also on the table for discussion, 15 and we've said that publicly before. 16 Another issue still on the table is some of the 17 clarifying provisions and off mode provisions that this 18 would be the third SNOPR on, this isn't new. So you're 19 well aware of what those are as well. Let's see, what 20 else would we consider? There are some outcomes in the 21 regional standards enforcement rulemaking that we believe 22 requires some changes. Not necessarily changes that 23 would affect measured consumption, but some changes to 24 implement that the way the negotiated rulemaking terms 25 sheet specifies. Those won't be new to you, you agreed

## Meeting June 17, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 79 1 to them in the working group. So you know, it's hard to 2 say that you guys don't know mostly what's coming. 3 You have not seen a proposed rule, that's 4 completely fair and that's all on me and I'll take 5 responsibility to that. I'm looking at the ceiling 6 talking to you, too, by the way so I'm sure everyone in 7 the room can laugh at me. But I don't think it's fair to 8 say that the department and the manufacturers have no 9 interaction and you're just going to be completely 10 blindsided by what's going to come out here. 11 MR. WINNINGHAM: That's not what I was 12 inferring, Ashley. I know that you have been to some of 13 the discussions and there has been some exchange, but 14 there hasn't been what I would regard as agreement around 15 those. And I don't think the exchange has been -- I 16 don't know what the -- but it's not like we had sat 17 around trying to determine and agree upon the 18 (inaudible) of each of these items. And I think the 19 ASRAC process would be an excellent forum to work through 20 those details. 21 MS. ARMSTRONG: So this is Ashley. And the 22 point of being -- negotiating, you know, I think we're 23 willing to give a little. We do plan to put out a 24 proposed rule, but we do want to start this process soon. 25 So if you guys want to say that, you know, a limited

## Meeting June 17, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 80 1 portion of the test procedure, whatever you see in the 2 proposed rule that you want to discuss, you want to 3 discuss it the first handful of meetings, fine, I can do 4 that. But I think we want to resolve that pretty quickly 5 so we can move to a final rule and advance with the NOPR. 6 And so you know, I don't want to say that the 7 test procedure is completely opening because we have a 8 need to finalize that in a reasonable amount of time. 9 But if you see the proposed rule and there's some things 10 you want to discuss as part of the working group, I think 11 that's fine with the understanding that DOE thinks the 12 working group should be started soon. 13 MR. deLASKI: That makes sense to me. I mean, 14 that's consistent with what I've been hearing people say 15 which is that the working group -- I mean, what's going 16 to happen is sort of the sequencing here is a proposed 17 testing method is published, there's a 60 or 75-day 18 comment period, and that comment period is going to be 19 concurrent with this working group getting its work. So 20 it's natural -- it's almost -- you can't avoid it talking 21 about these topics in the working group, and it will be 22 healthy and necessary to talk about what's being said in 23 their written comments as well, and hopefully it can be 24 done in a way that's more interactive than would 25 otherwise be the case.

## Meeting June 17, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 81 1 So that strikes me as being a healthy thing, and 2 so then the department will move towards a final test 3 method rule. And I think that's then going to impact how 4 those discussions go and what the people can sort of 5 start getting centered on, what is the test method 6 revisions that the final rule will show I think aren't 7 going to influence the timing for how you could move 8 forward with the discussions on standard levels. 9 So if you continue to be a logger head over some 10 key issues, you're not going to be able to do that. So 11 that's going to be impacting the timing of when the 12 committee will be able to reach consensus. 13 So that kind of brings me to -- that's sort of 14 the way I'm thinking about it, that impacts -- assuming 15 we're comfortable with chartering the working group, I 16 think what we would initially want to do is give it a 17 charter and then a report back since we're not going to 18 sort of give them -- I can't imagine -- it seems to be 19 premature for the deadline at this point in reaching 20 standards agreement. But we would say, you know, report 21 back, you know, by our next meeting or whatever. Or you 22 know, report back by September 1st or something. 23 Charlie? 24 MR. HON: This is Charlie Hon. The one thing 25 that last -- in the one -- the working group that just

## Meeting June 17, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 82 1 completed their task, a very tight type timeline was 2 imposed on them because of regulatory deadlines, and they 3 were able to complete that task within the scope of our 4 charter. 5 I think that I'm hearing the same sort of thing, 6 not quite as tight of deadlines, but certainly a fairly 7 tight sort of deadlines exists in this one as well. So 8 an open-ended project is a problematic issue. So we have 9 to be very cognitive that it's going to have to be tight, 10 and the more projects that we put in there, whether it be 11 the scope of the test procedures and the rulemaking, the 12 more you put in there, the more difficult it becomes to 13 complete. 14 MR. deLASKI: Well, let me ask John and Ashley 15 now -- welcome, John. Since you're here, we'll put you 16 on the spot. What are you guys thinking in terms of time 17 frame? 18 MS. ARMSTRONG: He's throwing me under the bus. 19 MR. CYMBALSKY: I would never do that. 20 MS. ARMSTRONG: You just did. 21 MR. WINNINGHAM: This is Dave at Allied. By the 22 way, I believe the statutory deadline for the NOPR is 23 June or July 2017 recognizing that the regulatory agenda 24 is something different. 25 MS. ARMSTRONG: So realistically, I think from

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202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 83 1 my perspective we would look to have this up and running 2 no later than, yeah, sometime in August getting it 3 started perhaps with, you know, a report back within a 4 month or so about at least agreement on test procedure 5 issues. And from there, maybe an allowance of a couple 6 of months to discuss analysis and standard levels. 7 MS. CLEARY: So Ashley, are you thinking then 8 like four months total would be sufficient or is three 9 enough? More than that? 10 MS. ARMSTRONG: I think from the department's 11 perspective, we think it can be done in three months, 12 yep, with the interim report back on test procedure 13 decisions done within the first month so we could go 14 ahead and move forward to finalize, yep. 15 MR. deLASKI: Well, if you form the committee in 16 August -- if you form the committee in August -- 17 MS. ARMSTRONG: I think we would form the 18 committee next month. In other words, if we -- if it 19 gets chartered, we'll put out a meeting notice next week. 20 MR. deLASKI: Yeah. 21 MS. ARMSTRONG: We're going to be asking ASRAC 22 for a webinar in July. Hopefully we could approve the 23 committee in July and have the first meeting in August. 24 MR. deLASKI: And test method will have been on 25 the streets for several weeks at that point.

## Meeting June 17, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 84 1 MS. ARMSTRONG: Possibly a month by that point 2 maybe. I don't know, we'll see. 3 MR. deLASKI: And the -- so then we look for a 4 report back in September on the test method issues, sort 5 of a scoping on the test method issues, and then -- so 6 then if you have October and November to work on standard 7 levels, you're looking at a target of December 1. 8 MS. ARMSTRONG: That's reasonable. 9 MS. KLINE: This is Kelley Kline. I guess my 10 only hesitation there -- and I like how we're thinking 11 about it with the test method piece up front -- I guess 12 I'm hearkening back to Jen's comment, and I just want to 13 be sensitive to since the test procedure still in -- at 14 somewhat in flux and I just don't have the great sense of 15 this product or the types of changes here, I would want 16 to make sure we give the manufacturers sufficient time to 17 be able to react to that new test procedure, test their 18 products under the revised test procedure, and really 19 have a good sense of how that it is impacting their 20 products and design. 21 So what I'm hesitating over is not beginning the 22 test procedure work immediately, but that immediate 23 follow-on on the standards piece, and I'm wondering if 24 that's enough time. And I don't want to speak for the 25 manufacturers in that category, but I'm just raising that

## Meeting June 17, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 85 1 as a potential place where I can see the group needing 2 more time. 3 MR. deLASKI: Other thoughts on this? 4 MR. WINNINGHAM: This is Dave with Lennox. I 5 think a 30-day month time to do the procedure would be 6 very, very aggressive. If we do any testing, it is 7 likely to take, you know, double to triple that amount of 8 time. I'm not trying to drag my feet here; I'm realistic 9 to what manufacturers can realistically do. 10 The other part of this discussion, kind of a 11 review of regional standards and the impact of regional 12 standards in that we don't really understand the impacts 13 of that in large, the sell through of older products 14 intact. We're not going to really understand the 15 influence of the standards on these products until really 16 2016 and (inaudible). 17 So my perspective is we need to have a 18 reasonable schedule that allows full consideration of all 19 complex issues around this upcoming rulemaking. 20 MS. KLINE: And just one other -- and this is 21 Kelley Kline again -- just one other thought here that 22 might be able to be discussed at the test procedure at 23 the front end, what -- another piece that might be able 24 to be discussed and kind of negotiated at that piece -- 25 at that time is what manufacturers think is a reasonable

## Meeting June 17, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 86 1 kind of number and a testing plan to give them a 2 representative cross-section of, you know, what the 3 impact of the standard on their products would be. 4 Because, you know, that might be -- it could 5 range from very little to something that would be -- 6 something that would be significant. And if it was 7 agreed there, then you would be able to get to a much 8 better sense of whether it was a one-month exercise or a 9 three-month exercise, or, you know what that is and have 10 kind of a common understanding of what the timeline is so 11 everybody's on the same page about the needs. Just a 12 thought. 13 MS. ARMSTRONG: So a couple thoughts. One is, 14 I'm not sure -- so just so the committee is well aware, 15 I'm not sure we're going to agree what all the test 16 procedure changes should be as part of that group, and I 17 don't want that to bog down what progress might could be 18 made. 19 I'm hopeful with the dialogue and the 20 back-and-forth and the rationale and the explanation of 21 whys that we can reach some resolution, but I'm not sure. 22 So I'd hate to see that, you know, we get to the 23 three-month mark and we're still talking about what that 24 test method should look like and we don't have any. 25 DOE has done some testing, albeit, manufacturers

## Meeting June 17, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 87 1 will need to as well, and they will need to bring data. 2 DOE does have some understanding of how those ratings 3 would change and what they would look like. DOE is happy 4 to share that information and walk through how it came to 5 its conclusions and revise the analysis accordingly. 6 But I think that will also be part of the 7 analysis discussion. I mean, fundamentally, I think that 8 will be part of bringing data in how do you build up the 9 engineering? What efficiency levels are you analyzing? 10 With what technologies? What are the numbers that 11 represent that bundle under the new test procedure and 12 what were they before? So I think those discussions will 13 continue to move on past that one month, and maybe we can 14 say -- but I think -- in that one-month period, what I 15 think we're trying to encompass is that these are the 16 proposed changes, and if there's any big, big issues like 17 there were a couple of really sticky issues in NREFs that 18 Jen referred to and they were able to talk about them, 19 have that dialogue -- and Charlie -- and have that 20 dialogue and resolve them, and now that test procedure's 21 off the table and they can move forward and we can move 22 forward. And they'll get their test procedure final rule 23 before the NOPR, and that's what I'm hoping. 24 My worry here is thought that we won't be able 25 to agree and having an open-ended deadline and not a

## Meeting June 17, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 88 1 tight one for at least the test procedure discussions 2 could very well stall this process, and I don't think 3 that's where we want to send the upfront message to the 4 committee or to the working group if we end up chartering 5 it. I'm all for giving them enough time to do some 6 tests, AC and heat pumps tests do take some time -- not 7 nearly as long as refrigerators at least in some of 8 them -- but that being said, I do think to make some hard 9 decisions on the test procedure, 30 days should be 10 sufficient. 11 Now, whether we start -- instead of starting in 12 August, maybe we start in September to give them a little 13 more time to see the test procedure, maybe that's the 14 give. But I don't think, you know, drawing this out 15 until 2017 is reasonable for the department to even 16 consider. 17 MS. CLEARY: So I'd like to hear a little 18 feedback from some of the manufacturers because it seems 19 to me like the suggestion that you just had is a good 20 one, which is I feel like it would be helpful for the 21 department for able to see the written comments on the 22 test procedure, which I would assume would help to 23 identify what those sticky issues potentially are. And 24 also -- I'm sure you probably already know them from the 25 department -- but I think speaking from the NREF context,

## Meeting June 17, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 89 1 it was helpful to me going into the discussions to know 2 where other parties stood on those test procedure issues. 3 I think we were able to address them more 4 quickly because we were really limited to discussing 5 topics where there were differences of opinion where we 6 might not have known where the department was going to go 7 in a final rule, for example. And I think that also 8 allowed manufacturers to have some experience with what 9 was proposed; whereas, if we start the working group at 10 the same time as, you know, an open proposal is on the 11 streets, I think I'd -- I think that might be more 12 challenging. So it seems like a good compromise to me. 13 MS. JAKOBS: So this is Diane Jakobs from Rheem. 14 And the particular test procedure -- and I don't 15 participate on 210/240 for AHRI, but it's complicated in 16 the sense that we have independent coil manufacturers, 17 and we have these ARM, Alternate Rating Methods, so 18 there's computer programs. 19 And I know when I've been in committees with 20 other people, if they make points, I don't necessarily 21 remember every point that they made unless, you know, the 22 group accepted it. So you know, it could be that you've 23 heard it and you gave what you felt was a good argument 24 against it, you know, and then in your mind, it's over. 25 So I'm sure that Ashley brought up all these

## Meeting June 17, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 90 1 issues and that people heard them. I don't think that we 2 have been testing in case that happens. So I don't think 3 there could be any assumption that there was a design or 4 testing related to issues raised by Ashley at a 210/240 5 meeting. 6 So a month seems very, very short for talking 7 about the test procedure, to me. And I understand, you 8 know, giving people a short deadline is really important, 9 but it's very complicated issue, and if it's so short 10 that you can't do anything then why even try? 11 MR. deLASKI: I think the new proposal was -- 12 what was the adjusted schedule Ashley that you were just 13 proposing was -- 14 MS. ARMSTRONG: That's what I was trying to 15 write out. 16 MR. deLASKI: I was trying to capture it, too, 17 and I'm not sure I got it. 18 MS. ARMSTRONG: So I think my proposal was to 19 start a little bit later. So maybe instead of in August, 20 we bump that start date a little bit out further. The 21 would do two things; one: Give people more time with the 22 proposed method of test; but B: Also allow them generate 23 comments and test data accordingly as they may wish to. 24 You know, and so I think that -- can you live 25 with that? So one option to consider would be to

## Meeting June 17, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 91 1 starting sometime -- instead of starting in August, would 2 the committee consider starting October 1? And that 3 would be 30 days for test procedure, and then two months 4 for standards analysis, and that will give you -- what 5 that buys you is about probably three months. 6 MR. deLASKI: Huh-uh. 7 MS. ARMSTRONG: Two and a half, three months 8 with the test procedure and lab time, and how you use 9 that is up to you. You will have the subsequent 30 days 10 to bring to the department any major issues with the test 11 procedure. We will have 30 days to work to resolve them 12 in the working group. And after that, you will also have 13 additional time to bring data about the analysis and what 14 those levels look like. 15 But with the two-month deadline, so it would be 16 October for the test procedure, November, December for 17 standards, with a final date of December 31st. 18 MR. ECKMAN: So Ashley, what -- if -- is the 19 anticipated close of comments on the test procedure 20 assuming if there's a NOPR out this -- is that what 21 you're talking about -- this summer? 22 MS. ARMSTRONG: Yeah. 23 MR. ECKMAN: So would that close end of October 24 so at the first meeting -- no. 25 MR. deLASKI: It would typically be 60 days.

## Meeting June 17, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 92 1 MR. CYMBALSKY: 75 days. 2 MS. ARMSTRONG: So this is going to be an SNOPR. 3 We have satisfied the 75-day comment period. It does not 4 have to be 75, it could very well could be 30. 5 MR. ECKMAN: I just -- there's an overlap 6 between the first month of the meeting of the crew -- 7 MS. ARMSTRONG: I don't think there will be. I 8 think the comment period will have closed by October 1, I 9 considered that. And we do not anticipate issuing an 10 extension because, really, they can bring comments to the 11 working group, that will be what that 30 days is for. If 12 we need to discuss other major issues, we can do it in 13 that forum and essentially discuss comments or responses 14 or so -- 15 MR. AMRANE: This is Karim with AHRI. Just to 16 comment on what Ashley just said about the comment period 17 here. The SNOPR is the current test procedure that's 18 being revised by DOE while it's really specifically 19 addressing the off mode, it was not about something else. 20 So if you are adding new stuff that we don't 21 know what it is, I think -- I think you should give us 22 enough time to react. I mean, 30 days will not be 23 possible for us, particularly if we have to test 24 products. We have to really assess what those changes 25 are.

## Meeting June 17, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 93 1 MS. ARMSTRONG: I don't think talking about the 2 test method comment period is appropriate for this group. 3 I mean, ultimately, depending on with consultation with 4 our lawyers, we're going to set the comment period 5 appropriately. 6 MR. deLASKI: And of course you're free to ask 7 for extensions once it’s been published, that's -- it 8 happens frequently, but I don't think it's a matter for 9 this committee. 10 MS. ARMSTRONG: Right. 11 MR. deLASKI: What I've heard, though, is a 12 proposal for a schedule that would entail initiating -- 13 so the work group would be formed this summer, call for 14 nominations would go out, working group would be formed 15 by this committee sometime over the summer. And then 16 initial meetings would be in October, spending the first 17 month probably a couple of meetings to resolve any 18 outstanding on the test method which may all be tied up 19 with a bow by then based on comments in the NOPR, and may 20 not be. So if they're all tied up by then, or at least 21 we know what the disagreements are, then the agency 22 can -- then the group can move ahead with the discussion 23 on standards sooner. And then a deadline for your terms 24 sheet to report it back out to this -- to the parent 25 committee.

## Meeting June 17, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 94 1 MS. KLINE: This is Kelley Kline again. I just 2 want to flag kind of one more thought for the group here 3 just from a manufacturer's perspective, because I know 4 this is how we would think about it looking at this. 5 I think that this group should think about what 6 advice its giving to manufacturers as its outlined in 7 this committee with the SNOPR. Because I think typically 8 when manufacturers would see an SNOPR that's actively 9 getting commented on, right, it would not be thought of 10 as a -- what should be treated as a final procedure. So 11 would not be doing as extensive a testing -- as you would 12 typically do as if you were preparing for a compliance 13 date or assessing a standards level; right? 14 So it is -- I think it is asking the 15 manufacturers in this product category to essentially 16 treat the SNOPR as a final test procedure, test 17 accordingly to get ready for the standards negotiation, 18 and I think we need to recognize that that's essentially 19 the instruction we're giving to those manufacturers in 20 this scenario. Because otherwise, how do they get ready 21 for the standards negotiation? And I'm just kind of 22 tossing that out there. Correct me if anybody has a 23 different read of that timeline. 24 MS. CLEARY: So Kelley, yeah, I was kind of 25 thinking the same thing. And I guess my initial thought

## Meeting June 17, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 95 1 of pushing the start date was to allow them -- the 2 manufacturers, to assess what the issues were in order to 3 start the test procedure discussions. 4 But then it seems like we have the other issue 5 of once the working group hopefully agrees to a final 6 test procedure, at least works out the major issues so 7 they have a good lead time in sense as to what the final 8 test procedure will work like, will they have enough time 9 to do that testing that you're talking about in order to 10 inform their standard? 11 So it sounds like I think we need to hear a 12 little more from maybe AHRI or others in terms of what 13 they need. Where do they need that extra time? Do they 14 need it before the negotiation begins or do they need it 15 after agreeing to the major elements of the test 16 procedure in order to inform the standards analysis? I 17 could see it being -- personally, I could see it, from 18 our experience being in both cases, so I'd like to hear 19 that. 20 MR. AMRANE: And this is Karim with AHRI, and I 21 would agree. I think we would need time for both, 22 because there would be an SNOPR out who will be testing 23 and if there are changes done, you know, made to the test 24 procedure during that negotiation, we probably would have 25 to negotiate that as well. So yes, we would have to

## Meeting June 17, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 96 1 build in some time to test both times. 2 MS. JAKOBS: This is Diane Jakobs from Rheem. 3 And our lab is scheduled out for a year in advance. So I 4 mean, we're -- we've participated in a lot of these 5 negotiated rulemaking, clearly it's important to Rheem, 6 and we will do our best to collect data to understand for 7 ourselves what's happening, you know. And secondary to 8 that, what we share. 9 But I think SNOPR, it's always a case where you 10 should evaluate it, you know. I'd -- I know that there's 11 some people who just want to know what the final rule is 12 and we'll do whatever we need to do, but if you want to 13 be part of the process and part of the negotiation, 14 you -- you need to be doing that testing. So I don't 15 know that probably the people who would do it anyway 16 would receive the message and others, they wouldn't pay 17 attention anyway. So I don't know if we need a special 18 message about the importance of SNOPRs. 19 MR. CYMBALSKY: Right. This is John from DOE. 20 I actually think actually the opposite from Kelley. I 21 think it's actually more important to do all the testing 22 on the proposal because if you wait until the final rule, 23 guess what, it's too late; right? A rule's a rule. 24 So I think the earlier the comments and the 25 earlier the testing in all of our processes, the better.

## Meeting June 17, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 97 1 Waiting until the final rule or -- you know, and then 2 test and say "Oh, gosh, you know what? This really 3 doesn't work for us," you know, so that's that. 4 You know, I think in terms of timing, you know, 5 Ashley and I were discussing, you know, this is a 2015 6 thing. Okay? Period. End of sentence. You guys want 7 to work out the math earlier, later, it's 2015; it's not 8 a 2016 deadline. So feel free to do it earlier in the 9 process or later in the process, but we're sitting here 10 in mid-June and we have five and a half months, we'll use 11 it any way you guys think is appropriate. 12 MR. deLASKI: What strikes me is that since -- 13 we don't -- you know, again, I'm not an ACEEE test method 14 expert. There are a few in the room, but many of us are 15 trying to sort of guide and process that we're not expert 16 and we don't know. So what I would say is, it seems to 17 me that you probably would want to have a first meeting 18 in September rather than push it out to October, because 19 if there's issues, you want to surface them sooner rather 20 than later; right? So why push it out to that first week 21 in October? 22 So why not form the group in the summertime, 23 people have a chance to spend -- hopefully we'll have a 24 test method very soon -- they'll have a chance to work to 25 it, to react to it, to assess it, choose what's most

## Meeting June 17, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 98 1 meaningful. So then September 1 you'd be having your 2 first face-to-face and instead of having one month to 3 work on the test method, you have two months to work on 4 the test method if you need it or maybe you have another 5 thing to work on that's the topic. But why not start to 6 process in September with that December 31st deadline. 7 MR. CYMBALSKY: And I know Ashley already said 8 this, but along with -- just to reinforce the point -- 9 along with the test procedure is going to be the analysis 10 that we did, which is -- it's a NOPR analysis, right. 11 And it has the analysis and all the conversions from all 12 the old -- 13 MR. deLASKI: So that would be released with or 14 about the same time? 15 MR. CYMBALSKY: Our plan is to do is 16 simultaneously. So you're going to get it -- you're not 17 only going to get what the SNOPR looks like, you're going 18 to get DOE's testing results and that kind of thing baked 19 into a full TSD. 20 MR. CASKEY: And this is John Caskey. So when 21 do you think that might happen? 22 MR. CYMBALSKY: So I think -- 23 MR. CASKEY: Were you saying mid-July or 24 something in that order? 25 MS. ARMSTRONG: I think July.

## Meeting June 17, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 99 1 MR. CASKEY: So I think you're going in the 2 right direction in terms of starting this earlier, but I 3 would still -- I don't see any reason not to go ahead and 4 establish if we are going to decide and create a working 5 group, why not go ahead and have that group of people 6 getting together in August to start to discuss the test 7 procedures? And then they've still got plenty of time to 8 discuss the rule before the December 31 deadline. 9 I mean, I think there's value in discussing the 10 test procedures as a group as opposed to not doing 11 anything until, like, the public comment period is over 12 with. But as you said, I mean -- I don't -- I don't have 13 a big dog in this fight. So I mean, I relied to the 14 other manufacturers that have more involvement in this 15 particular technology, but it seems to me the earlier 16 they get started, the better. 17 MR. deLASKI: That's a good point. And I guess 18 I put it back to the people who are involved in these 19 previous discussions on test methods more deeply, which 20 is that -- are you going to be ready? Is there enough 21 work that's been done that you're ready to talk in 22 mid-August or do you need that full month before you're 23 even ready? If it's issues that have already been 24 discussed elsewhere, you've already tested on them, maybe 25 you already know. The lines are sort of perhaps already

## Meeting June 17, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 100 1 drawn, and it's just an issue of seeing -- you know, 2 confirming that. 3 MS. JAKOBS: This is Diane. And the issues that 4 have been raised, that doesn't mean that there's test 5 data behind it. You just know it makes it worse, it 6 makes it less. You don't know -- I think we have 13 SEER 7 or 14 SEER or 15 SEER -- 17 SEER I remember -- I don't -- 8 We have a new platform just got introduced, so there's a 9 full line of each those. Then there's mix-matched 10 ratings. There's heat pumps. 11 I mean, anything we could do in a month would 12 maybe be we could test three out of 50, 60 models. I 13 mean, it's going to be a big leap to say what -- what you 14 can infer from whatever testing anyone can do. It all 15 depends on what the changes are, but -- 16 MR. CYMBALSKY: So let me read a comment from 17 Rusty because this gets to your point. So he -- Rusty 18 Tharp on the phone commented on timing, and he thinks 19 three months is very aggressive given the need and the 20 unknown impact, but this is the statement that I think is 21 pretty important to read. 22 The impact of the unknown test procedure 23 changes, and this is the key part: While we may know in 24 general, such as an external static pressure change is 25 coming, we don't know what it is. And he goes on to say,

## Meeting June 17, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 101 1 three to four months type of thing. 2 So you know, I'm not saying what's in the test 3 procedure, but there's one thing that's been thrown out 4 there by a manufacturer. 5 MS. ARMSTRONG: So Andrew, can I make a 6 suggestion? Because it is 12:30, perhaps we break for 7 lunch. The people that asked for this working group can 8 consider the timeline they may want to suggest to ASRAC 9 to consider. 10 But with that being said, they've heard John's 11 hard stop with December 31st at least from DOE's 12 perspective, so working within those confines, what is it 13 they want ASRAC to consider? 14 MR. AMRANE: This is Karim, maybe for John here, 15 can you explain to us what the hard time December -- why 16 is it December? 17 MR. CYMBALSKY: This is John from DOE. So the 18 negotiated rulemakings are not a forum to elongate the 19 time. And as Charlie more eloquently spoke to it than I 20 can for the commercial unitary air conditioning where we 21 already put out a NOPR, we said, "The timing's everything 22 here." And the first working group met April 28th, and 23 on June 15th, we had a term sheet. I know this will be 24 a little longer -- well, a lot longer, but, you know, 25 maybe double the time or more because of the test

## Meeting June 17, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 102 1 procedure potential changes. 2 So there's no reason why that case doesn't hold 3 here. I mean, what we're doing is getting people in the 4 room to get to a negotiated settlement in a time period 5 that's similar to what DOE's rulemaking schedule was. 6 It's not -- it's not a forum to double or triple the time 7 that DOE would normally take. That's not what this -- 8 what these negotiations are about. 9 I understand that certain groups would like more 10 time, but I understand that; however, DOE's very clear 11 that this -- and we'll work as hard as possible to make 12 that happen -- but it is a working group and it means you 13 have to work. We're doing this in place of what our 14 normal rulemaking process is. It's not to extend the 15 timeline. That is not -- 16 MR. deLASKI: John, the normal process would be 17 a NOPR published next month. So you're saying we're not 18 going to post a NOPR next month, but we want a NOPR by 19 the end of the year. Basically, you're accepting a 20 six-month delay in the process to accommodate this 21 request. 22 MR. CYMBALSKY: That's right. 23 MS. CLEARY: Can you tell us what the statutory 24 or regulatory requirements are on -- 25 MR. CYMBALSKY: For the NOPR? I think Dave

## Meeting June 17, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 103 1 Winningham had -- 2 MR. deLASKI: The requirement, I think Dave said 3 it already but it's within that period, no later. 4 MR. WINNINGHAM: It's either June or July 2017. 5 MR. deLASKI: No later than. 6 MR. CYMBALSKY: No later than. 7 MS. CLEARY: Right. So I guess I understood 8 Karim's question to be: Why the rush? 9 MR. CYMBALSKY: For the regulatory agenda? 10 MS. CLEARY: Yeah. 11 MR. CYMBALSKY: I mean, that's what we published 12 to the public; that was our plan all along. 13 MS. CLEARY: So I think I understand your point 14 on, you know, not using the negotiations as a forum to 15 elongate the process; however, I think one distinction -- 16 and I'm trying to understand if this distinction is the 17 case in this rulemaking is -- you know, the terms sheet 18 that we just approved today, there was a statutory 19 deadline and that was the reason why it needed to move 20 quickly if I understand correctly. 21 So I want to make sure that we're not imposing 22 that need to move quickly in cases where DOE might not 23 be, you know, up against that kind of a statutory 24 deadline. I'm not suggesting that working groups should 25 go on for a year or six months even, but what I am

## Meeting June 17, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 104 1 suggesting is, I want to know a reason for why the end of 2 December -- you know, why the end-of-the-year deadline? 3 Not -- if it's going to cause problems, if it's going to 4 make an analysis not based on reason or on a complete 5 test procedure, you know, I see no reason to move quickly 6 for no reason. So I want to understand, I think, what 7 those statutory deadlines are. 8 MR. CYMBALSKY: So we're moving slower based on 9 initial conversations first of all. We're not speeding 10 anything up, we're actually slowing down. As you know, 11 the administration has been very up front about its 12 climate action plan goals of which this rule is part of. 13 So it's going to fit within the time frame of the climate 14 action plan. 15 There is a policy decision made and a schedule 16 published for this rulemaking in the regulatory agenda. 17 And so again, you know, DOE's willing to give the six 18 months or so to negotiate this in good faith. And so 19 that's -- that's, you know, that's what we intend to do. 20 MR. deLASKI: The other point I would make is 21 typically it's the working group that set their -- once 22 they've been formed, they set their meeting schedule, 23 right. So we kind of set -- we pick the members, we had 24 a start date and an end date, and they do everything in 25 between, right, so -- unless we impose something else.

## Meeting June 17, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 105 1 So I think we should probably want to pick a -- 2 a start date. I'm kind of coming down to where John's at 3 which is, let them start sooner rather than later, you 4 know. If they have their first meeting in, you know, 5 early August and they scope their plan and maybe it's 6 just a one-day meeting. We did a one-day meeting, I 7 think, on commercialized heat, just strawed it because we 8 didn't have that much substance yet, but it's good to get 9 together to spend a day just working on your ground 10 rules. Although, I think we did it in an hour in 11 commercial AC. 12 And then you can sequence it from there based on 13 how much time, for example, manufacturer would say in 14 that meeting they need useful -- how much time do I need 15 in my lab that would be useful before we're down here 16 face-to-face again? 17 So that would be my -- I second the negotiation 18 and welcome a recommendation from the folks who have 19 asked for the six months. Basically there's been a 20 request: Don't publish the NOPR that was about to come 21 out, let's negotiate instead. That's the nature of this 22 request. 23 The department's saying, "Okay. We won't 24 publish the NOPR, but we want the deadline at end of the 25 year." That's sort of the -- that's the terms that we're

## Meeting June 17, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 106 1 talking about here. So start sooner, end on the 2 deadline. That's kind of the gist of it. 3 MR. CYMBALSKY: I agree. I don't think there's 4 any harm in having that initial meeting. And if you're 5 not ready to test, you don't have data, that's fine. But 6 like Andrew said, you can take care of all the 7 administrative stuff that may or may not take a day or 8 half a day or whatever and -- and you could air some 9 dirty laundry on what you've seen, right, and go back 10 and -- go back and both sides and everyone think about 11 initial thoughts to the test procedure and the data. I 12 don't think there's any harm in that. 13 MR. deLASKI: So with that thought, we can 14 either take a vote now, something along those lines. 15 We've covered it enough, or we can come back after lunch. 16 MS. JAKOBS: So could we -- sorry, this is 17 Diane. So could we have informal working group have a 18 meeting or two, report back, and then set a final date 19 with saying the preferred date is the end of the year or 20 something? I mean -- 21 MR. CYMBALSKY: I mean, I would just say, take 22 the end of the year and that's -- right? That's the best 23 case scenario for the most time; right? And so just 24 say -- just say that. 25 MALE SPEAKER: Can we negotiate it back to

## Meeting June 17, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 107 1 November? 2 (Laughter.) 3 MR. CYMBALSKY: That's fine if people want to do 4 that, but I would just say take December 31st and kind of 5 be like, "Okay. We're willing to take all the time 6 you're willing to give us." So I thought that's what you 7 might want that. 8 MS. JAKOBS: So John, this is Diane with -- so 9 you said you were advancing the regulations in response 10 to President Obama's climate plan. Is that in conflict 11 with what the regulation is if Dave's saying that it has 12 to be done? 13 MR. CYMBALSKY: No later than. 14 MS. JAKOBS: No later than. 15 MR. CYMBALSKY: Right, and even if we finish 16 earlier, there's still regulation about compliance dates 17 spreads of five years. So if we finish a rule early, 18 you'll have more time at end. 19 MS. JAKOBS: Oh, okay. 20 MR. CYMBALSKY: Based on when the last 21 compliance date was, right. So that -- that's set in 22 stone. We can't do that. So don't -- 23 MS. JAKOBS: So you can't -- 24 MR. CYMBALSKY: Just because we're doing this 25 sooner doesn't mean --

## Meeting June 17, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 108 1 MR. deLASKI: The soonest this one can take 2 effect if I do the math right is 2021. There's a lockout 3 period. 4 MR. CYMBALSKY: Right. So it's a three-year 5 compliance date for this, but if that three years doesn't 6 keep the five-year spread, it will have to be three years 7 plus whatever that extra time is. 8 MR. deLASKI: So you're going to end up with 9 knowing the answer sooner. 10 MR. CYMBALSKY: Right, and then it gives you 11 more time at the end to comply. So you can do this 12 either way. And I know Jen and I have had this 13 conversation about, you know, one of the AHAM products, 14 and it's like, "Where do you want your time?" It's like, 15 "Oh, you just finished a rule. Why are you doing this?" 16 But you still get that -- that five-year certainty, yeah. 17 MR. deLASKI: So I would suggest in the interest 18 of lunch that -- again, from my view, I'm ready to vote 19 on this. And I think -- 20 MR. AMRANE: We can. 21 MR. deLASKI: What's that? 22 MR. AMRANE: Let's vote. 23 MR. deLASKI: Right. Let's vote. We want to 24 form a working group, we want to set an initial meeting 25 for early August, and set an end-of-the-year deadline for

## Meeting June 17, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 109 1 a final -- for our terms sheet. 2 MR. CYMBALSKY: Can I second that? 3 MR. deLASKI: I hear a second. 4 MS. CLEARY: I think my only discussion is that 5 as a general matter, I am concerned about the quality of 6 the analysis in order to push rules forward on a timeline 7 that's earlier than required. So that's not going to 8 stop me from voting on this, but I just want to put that 9 on the record, that's very concerning to me, and it's 10 happening on several rulemakings. 11 MS. JAKOBS: I would like to agree with Jen 12 that, I mean, we weren't going on production based on the 13 last rule production date and we were having manufacturer 14 impact interviews and so the products weren't in the 15 field yet and we were already talking about the next 16 round. And I don't know how good our answers were, 17 just -- not because we don't care, but because we have no 18 idea. And the regional standards has made it more 19 complicated, and even now we don't know what the impact 20 of that is. So I don't know how you would do the 21 analysis of something that hasn't happened yet. So thank 22 you. 23 MR. deLASKI: Any -- 24 MS. KLINE: This is Kelley. I agree with that, 25 too. And it's not going to keep me from voting for it

## Meeting June 17, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 110 1 because I think the companies impacted by the rule are 2 supporting it, but I'm concerned about the test procedure 3 piece and the impending test procedure overlapping with 4 the commencement of the discussions. 5 MR. deLASKI: Any further discussion? I'm 6 actually really pleased to hear that the manufacturers 7 interviews there's already been a round of those and 8 there's already been considerable work done that we will 9 see. So I'm glad the manufacturers cooperated with those 10 and did those interviews and that we have an analysis 11 that we soon will see. And that in my experience, the 12 reg-neg will result in that analysis, the quality of it 13 getting even better before we get to a final 14 recommendation. 15 So any further discussion? Any objections to 16 approving this working group with those terms? Okay. 17 We're going to -- let's -- that took longer than 18 expected, so we're now at ten of 1:00. Should we come 19 back at 1:30 or is that too fast? I think we better give 20 ourselves until with 1:45 to come back. So we'll 21 reconvene here at 1:45. Thanks, everybody. 22 (Lunch recess was taken.) 23 MR. deLASKI: So let's get restarted. We had 24 set aside this afternoon for reports back from the folks 25 who had taken assignments in our last meeting on some of

## Meeting June 17, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 111 1 the cross-cutting topics that we had, and our time has 2 been truncated somewhat because of the morning agenda 3 taking a little longer than anticipated. 4 I, for one, actually have to -- because of an 5 evening commitment, I have to catch a flight and I have 6 to leave at 2:30; although, I know others may have time 7 constraints, too. So let's push ahead, and I think we 8 also want to -- I think at the end we usually leave time 9 for public comment as well, so that needs to happen. 10 Yeah, well, I don't know who's on the webinar, 11 there's always that opportunity, too. Is there a 12 question? 13 MR. CYMBALSKY: Yeah, so John Caskey had a 14 question about if we put up his slides for people on the 15 webinar to see it’s become in the docket and all that. 16 But normally, yes is the answer. But if you don't want 17 it, then we could just do the handout. 18 MR. deLASKI: Okay. Let's -- 19 MR. CASKEY: So it's sort of my notes 20 (inaudible). 21 MR. deLASKI: Of your little subgroup. 22 MR. CASKEY: Which, I don't know if you want to 23 show my notes or just my (inaudible) notes (inaudible). 24 MR. deLASKI: Here's what I would suggest, given 25 our limited time today, why don't we -- we have some

## Meeting June 17, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 112 1 business items we need to take care of in terms of our 2 schedule in terms of a couple things to clean up on that 3 last topic. Let's clean up our business items first. 4 Let's take quick reports from the working -- 5 from the -- I don't know why I want to call them working 6 groups, but the sub-committees or what have you of this 7 committee that took some assignments, and then it may be 8 that we want to then adjourn and let those subgroups, I 9 think, maybe would be useful to meet face-to-face today 10 for a few minutes of time that we had. 11 MR. CASKEY: No, that's okay. I was just 12 interested in the issue about the public record and stuff 13 like that. I mean, I can summarize what we have so far. 14 MR. CYMBALSKY: I think the best thing to do is 15 to orally summarize your notes and not distribute them. 16 MR. deLASKI: Yeah, if you're not ready for that 17 yet, yeah. 18 So we need to pick ASRAC committee designees for 19 the committee we just formed for residential central air 20 conditioners and heat pumps. So are there volunteers for 21 that committee? Well, we need to have ASRAC committee 22 members. So I'm going to volunteer for this committee, 23 so I'm one. 24 MS. JAKOBS: I'll be participating, but I'll be 25 may be Karen's alternate, so --

## Meeting June 17, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 113 1 MR. deLASKI: Okay. 2 MS. JAKOBS: I mean, I'll be on. 3 MR. deLASKI: So I'm happy to be the -- I'm the 4 designee, and we assume that Rheem with apply for the 5 committee since it may not be you in person. Okay. 6 MR. CYMBALSKY: And I can speak from DOE, Tony 7 Bouza will be the DOE rep. 8 MR. deLASKI: Okay. Just when I finish up 9 commercial, I get to go to a new one. Okay. 10 MR. CYMBALSKY: I'm going to take a break from 11 the working group activity. 12 MR. deLASKI: And then we also just go ahead and 13 schedule our next meetings. Seems to me -- why don't we 14 do a phone call in July, because in July we're going to 15 have to form the AC working group. I don't think we need 16 it in person for that, but why don't we think about doing 17 a phone call. Someone mentioned perhaps -- 18 MS. JAKOBS: So you were talking about reporting 19 back? The AC group will be reporting back? Maybe that 20 would be a good time for a face-to-face. 21 MR. deLASKI: Well, I think we need one before 22 that to form the AC group. 23 MS. JAKOBS: Well, yeah, that would be the 24 webinar. 25 MR. deLASKI: Let's pick a time for that first.

## Meeting June 17, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 114 1 MS. JAKOBS: Okay. 2 MR. deLASKI: Looks like the miscellaneous 3 refrig meets on the 15th and the 16th. How about the 4 14th. 5 FEMALE SPEAKER: Of July? 6 MR. deLASKI: Of July. 7 MR. CYMBALSKY: I think there's a -- is that 8 cooking products -- 9 MR. deLASKI: How about the 13th? 10 MS. JAKOBS: I'll be on vacation. 11 MR. ECKMAN: I won't. I'll just be landing from 12 two weeks out of the office. 13 MR. deLASKI: I don't want to go past the 15th 14 because then we start losing time. 15 MALE SPEAKER: You could do the week before. 16 MS. JAKOBS: I'll be back on the 15th. 17 MR. ECKMAN: 13th's just better for me. 18 FEMALE SPEAKER: I don't think you're going to 19 get everybody. 20 MS. JAKOBS: 16th? 21 MR. deLASKI: No, 16th is miscellaneous 22 refrigeration meets. How about we say 1:00 p.m. on the 23 13th? We lose Tom. Do we lose anybody else? 24 MS. JAKOBS: Me. 25 MR. deLASKI: Diane?

## Meeting June 17, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 115 1 MR. ECKMAN: On the phone I can do it as long as 2 it's under two hours. 3 MS. JAKOBS: I'll be on a motorcycle, maybe I 4 can figure out how to participate on motorcycle. 5 MR. CYMBALSKY: Are you driving the motorcycle? 6 MS. JAKOBS: No. 7 MR. CYMBALSKY: I was going to say, that's 8 impressive. 9 MR. deLASKI: If we move to -- what's our 10 quorum? I've forgotten what our quorum is. 11 MR. CYMBALSKY: I think it's 80 percent. 12 MR. deLASKI: And we have Scott and John. 13 MR. CYMBALSKY: Yeah, I would try to get eight 14 people who are here today to say yes. 15 MR. deLASKI: That's a little tough. That puts 16 us in a pretty tough -- pretty tight if we lose two 17 quorum. 18 MALE SPEAKER: Why can't you do (inaudible). 19 MR. deLASKI: I'm thinking we need to get this 20 committee -- we want to get the committee working group 21 formed. Why don't we -- how about -- 22 MR. CYMBALSKY: What's that Monday of the next 23 week? 24 MR. deLASKI: Next -- 25 MR. CYMBALSKY: Oh, it is the 20th?

## Meeting June 17, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 116 1 MR. deLASKI: Is that when you meet, John? In 2 terms of your -- anything else in this committee to 3 consider? 4 MR. CYMBALSKY: Yeah, we were hoping for the 5 middle of the month to have the next ASRAC. The 7th -- 6 MALE SPEAKER: The 17th of? 7 MR. CYMBALSKY: I think the 7th. It's a Friday; 8 right? 9 MS. JAKOBS: 17th works for me. 10 MR. deLASKI: Does it work for you? 11 MR. CYMBALSKY: Yeah. 12 MR. deLASKI: Okay. I'll like early afternoon 13 East Coast time, 1:00 p.m. 14 MR. CYMBALSKY: We have David -- David 15 Hungerford on the webinar? 16 MR. HUNGERFORD: I am, I joined a couple of 17 minutes late. So what are you discussing? 18 MR. deLASKI: A phone call -- phone call meeting 19 on July 17th on 1:00 p.m. Eastern, 10:00 a.m. Pacific to 20 consider membership in the working group for central air 21 conditioning. 22 FEMALE SPEAKER: 2:00? 23 MR. deLASKI: 2:00 p.m. is fine with me. 24 Anybody object to 2:00 p.m.? 25 So David, before you came back, I volunteered to

## Meeting June 17, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 117 1 be the designee from this committee to the working group 2 on central air conditioners, but I don't know whether you 3 wanted to volunteer for that working group as well 4 because I know you express some interest. 5 MR. HUNGERFORD: Thanks. Well, I'd be happy to 6 serve. 7 MR. deLASKI: We have one already so it's not 8 like we need another one. So you also can apply as a 9 public participant. 10 MR. HUNGERFORD: No, that's fine. And the 17th 11 is open for me. 12 MR. deLASKI: Okay. So then we're looking ahead 13 to a -- I'm looking at an August meeting assuming that we 14 have a term sheets from these two working groups coming 15 back to us in mid-August. 16 FEMALE SPEAKER: August in Washington? 17 MR. deLASKI: Yeah. Okay. 18 FEMALE SPEAKER: Isn't the fan and blowers in 19 the same (inaudible). 20 MS. ARMSTRONG: August 6th, August 6th. 21 MR. deLASKI: So we can try to do the meeting in 22 the middle of August or we could put it off to September. 23 If we do that, then we're going to need to have a phone 24 call to deal with whatever -- whatever is coming out of 25 the fans group at that point.

## Meeting June 17, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 118 1 So should we try to do a phone call to deal with 2 the fans group, and then have more of a -- whatever the 3 fan group works and then have a full in person meeting in 4 September in -- and I see a lot of nodding. I don't see 5 a lot of eagerness for in person in August in D.C. 6 MR. CYMBALSKY: The air conditioning works, 7 what's the issue? (Simultaneous speaking.) 8 MR. deLASKI: We could do a phone call on the 9 10th. 10 FEMALE SPEAKER: August 10th? 11 MR. deLASKI: Yeah. 12 MALE SPEAKER: We're here. 13 MR. deLASKI: You're here the 11th and 12th 14 according to my calendar. 15 MALE SPEAKER: Yeah, I'm traveling on the 10th. 16 MALE SPEAKER: Yeah, I'm on the 10th, 11th, 17 12th. 18 MR. deLASKI: Could we do the 13th? That way we 19 can get a report from NREF. 20 FEMALE SPEAKER: Okay. 13's good. 21 MR. deLASKI: 2:00 p.m. again? 22 MR. CYMBALSKY: August 13th. 23 FEMALE SPEAKER: And one's the 17th and one's 24 the 13th. 25 MALE SPEAKER: One hour or two hours?

## Meeting June 17, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 119 1 MR. deLASKI: Better put it down for two given 2 the -- given the earlier conversation with fans and this 3 this'll -- this'll -- we may be facing some difficult 4 choices on fans. 2:00 to 4:00, yes. 5 And it seems to me that we should shoot for an 6 in person in September then, so the middle of the month. 7 FEMALE SPEAKER: The 14th? We can do the 14th. 8 MR. deLASKI: Thursdays are good? Thursday, 9 September 17th? Should we do 10:00 to 3:00 again? 10 MR. ECKMAN: I'm out that -- 11 MR. deLASKI: You're out that week, Tom? Or 12 you're out that -- 13 MR. ECKMAN: I could call in. 14 FEMALE SPEAKER: Yeah, that's going to be the 15 same for me that week. 16 MR. deLASKI: How about the following week, 17 would that be better? 18 MALE SPEAKER: Later that week. 19 MR. deLASKI: How about 9/24, 10:00 to 3:00. 20 Any objection? Okay. We have our schedule for the next 21 three months. 22 MALE SPEAKER: And that's in person in -- 23 MR. deLASKI: In person at DOE. Is that okay 24 with you guys in terms of scheduling a room and that kind 25 of thing? It's always a bit of a --

## Meeting June 17, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 120 1 MS. ARMSTRONG: I'll look now. We can keep 2 going. 3 MR. deLASKI: Okay. Then the other -- 4 FEMALE SPEAKER: (Inaudible.) 5 MR. deLASKI: Do you have them written down? 6 Yeah, you have them written down. So July 17th, let's 7 allow two hours, 2:00 to 4:00. August 13th, 2:00 to 4:00 8 eastern. September twenty -- 9 FEMALE SPEAKER: 29th? 10 MR. deLASKI: 24th is what I said. That's the 11 24th. 12 FEMALE SPEAKER: The 24th is 10:00 to 3:00 you 13 said? 14 MR. deLASKI: 10:00 to 3:00. 15 FEMALE SPEAKER: Okay. 16 MR. deLASKI: Now, the other bit of business I 17 think we need to attend to is membership in the 18 committee. The department put out a notice -- people 19 have probably noticed the last couple weeks ago -- 20 soliciting new members for the committee. I think some 21 people are going to term out this year. 22 Do you want to update people or can one of you 23 guys update people on what the terms are? 24 MS. ARMSTRONG: Yeah, so the only people I think 25 terming out this year at the end of the year are John

## Meeting June 17, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 121 1 Mandyck and Scott Harris. And so with the influx in 2 interest in the committee, the department is asking that 3 anyone that wants to -- for those that are terming out, 4 if they want to continue on, they need to reapply and be 5 considered as part of the full applicant process just so 6 that we can give people equal opportunity to participate 7 if they wish. And so those are the only two that matter 8 for this nomination process. I think you noted that the 9 nomination period ends in July, probably mid-July, I 10 think. 11 FEMALE SPEAKER: Have you started getting 12 interest yet? 13 MS. ARMSTRONG: Oh, yeah. 14 MR. deLASKI: And then everyone else terms -- 15 terms -- the next group would be terming out at the end 16 of the following year, is that the way that it works? Is 17 anybody terming out -- they're all on calendar year 18 schedules? 19 MR. CYMBALSKY: Yeah, December is the term out. 20 So Ashley already mentioned the two that are rotating -- 21 well, their terms are up. So we ask them to reapply if 22 they want to stay on. 23 MR. deLASKI: Okay. 24 MR. CYMBALSKY: Neither one of them are here 25 today.

## Meeting June 17, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 122 1 MR. deLASKI: I presume that you'll let them 2 know that directly -- some way or another directly. 3 FEMALE SPEAKER: (Inaudible) is it two spots 4 or -- 5 MR. CYMBALSKY: It would be those two. But, you 6 know, if they reapply, you know, I'll consider them all 7 together. We can add membership all the time, right. 8 The charter for the groups is roughly 12 so that gives 9 us -- we can have 15, maybe. I don't know. It all 10 depends on the applicants that come in and this -- the 11 reason we're -- the people are like, "You doing this in 12 December, why are you calling for them now?" 13 Well, because the secretary himself actually 14 chooses FACA committee members, so this package goes all 15 the way to the top. So it takes time to screen the 16 applicants. Last time we had -- we had -- we had a lot 17 of -- yeah, it did. Deborah can tell you -- 18 MS. MILLER: Nine months. 19 MR. CYMBALSKY: But we had a lot of applicants, 20 and quality applicants, and it's good. You know, I think 21 it reflects on the good work we're doing. So we will, 22 I'm sure, get another good pile of applicants to sift 23 through. 24 MR. deLASKI: I think you're -- the charter -- 25 or the statute requires you is balance in all respects;

## Meeting June 17, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 123 1 right? Stakeholders and geography. 2 MR. CYMBALSKY: Geography, yeah, race, sex, 3 everything is -- yeah, taken into account for membership 4 of the committee. That's right. 5 MR. deLASKI: Interests? Okay. 6 MR. CYMBALSKY: Yep. 7 MR. deLASKI: That's what I think we had for 8 business. John? 9 MR. CASKEY: When I looked at my calendar for 10 this meeting, I actually had it, I think, penciled in for 11 Monday, and then it was moved to today from my 12 perspective. Or did everybody have it on their calendar 13 for today initially? This was the planned date? Okay. 14 Because I must have put it in my calendar wrong then. 15 MR. deLASKI: I had it right, so -- 16 MR. CASKEY: Okay. 17 FEMALE SPEAKER: Different times, but that's all 18 right. 19 MR. deLASKI: I think 10:00 to 3:00 gives us 20 sufficient time. Any other business? I'm actually 21 looking -- make sure we can get a room. 22 MS. ARMSTRONG: 24th? We're good, I'll reserve 23 it now. Oh, actually, it's going to be 1-E -- no, no, 24 both of them are available, we're good. 25 MR. CYMBALSKY: I did not, but I can.

## Meeting June 17, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 124 1 MS. ARMSTRONG: I'll do it right now. 2 MR. CYMBALSKY: At some point they're supposed 3 to redo this room, so I don't -- you know, they keep 4 pushing it back and as of now September's available, but 5 either way we have a room, so we're good. 6 MR. deLASKI: All right. So we have three items 7 on our agenda for the next block and, you know, I haven't 8 had a chance to check in with folks who were -- who 9 volunteered for these various tasks. So I think we're 10 going to just turn it to those who volunteered for the 11 tasks to give us an update on what they've been able to 12 do and what they see as sort of some next steps. 13 And John, I think you're up first. 14 MR. CASKEY: Okay. Great, John Caskey at NEMA. 15 And this is a group dealing with sort of a discussion 16 about systems and the team people that we have are -- the 17 subgroup people so far are myself, David Hungerford, 18 Diane, and Jennifer. So we haven't had a meeting yet. 19 We've got that scheduled for July 1st, it's a 20 teleconference. 21 But in preparation for our first meeting, I put 22 together some notes. And ironically, I mean, during 23 today's discussion we've already had several discussions 24 around what we're referring to as systems and how do we 25 cover fans that are in a refrigerator or fans that are in

## Meeting June 17, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 125 1 an HVAC system, things like that. But just from my 2 perspective, there's a lot of opportunities to get some 3 pretty good bang for the buck by looking at systems 4 efficiency. 5 So some of the opportunities that are out there, 6 again, these are sort of my notes so far and we haven't 7 discussed this as a team, so once we do talk as a team, 8 then we'll come back with some additional sort of 9 clarification or some additional notes. But one of the 10 big advantages is just to look at systems efficiency that 11 there's a lot of bang for the bucks out there, and 12 ultimately there's a lot of opportunities to reduce -- 13 significantly reduce energy consumption. 14 The other thing is there's an evolution of 15 control technologies and monitoring technologies and 16 wireless communications, and controlling devices is a lot 17 easier than it was ten or 20 years ago, and there may be 18 some opportunities there to put these things together as 19 systems and control the overall system efficiency. 20 Then potentially, you know, instead of -- you 21 know, I've been most familiar with like distribution 22 transformers, and we're getting to the point where it's 23 more and more expensive to try and get that next quad of 24 energy out of distribution transformers. And if you look 25 at things from a systems perspective, you may be able to

## Meeting June 17, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 126 1 get more energy savings for lower costs to the consumer 2 overall. So that's another thing for consideration. 3 Another thing that's sort of an interest of mine 4 is that, again, a good example is distribution 5 transformers is that you have an energy efficiency that's 6 required to go into effect on January 1 of 2016, and when 7 transformers fail, then the owners will be replacing 8 those. But before they fail, I think most people are not 9 going to consider replacing an existing, functioning 10 device, whether it be a refrigerator or whether it be a 11 transformer with a high efficiency device or whether it 12 be HVAC until the old device actually fails. 13 So my question is, as a group, do we have a 14 influence in trying to provide education to say in a 15 business case -- there is a business case for replacing 16 your HVAC system before it actually fails and you may 17 reap enough energy savings to actually pay for that 18 capital investment. So just some topics like that that 19 I think are worthwhile investigating. 20 In terms of a definition, the definition that I 21 started with as just throwing it out to the other team 22 members is a system is defined as "a collection of 23 individual devices that includes monitoring, analysis, 24 control, and communication capabilities to manage the 25 operation of the device." And I'm saying a system can

## Meeting June 17, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 127 1 range from a Lumière that includes a control of a single 2 lamp, to a lighting system that includes day lighting and 3 occupancy sensors, to a cooling system that includes a 4 motor, compressor pumps, fans and other associated 5 controls. 6 So I've outlined a few of the potential concerns 7 that, certainly, as you move to the systems, it's 8 oftentimes more difficult to measure that energy 9 efficiency of those units overall. And to make sure that 10 that, you know, once you get controls involved and day 11 lighting and things like that, how do you make sure that 12 you're actually getting those savings sort of day in and 13 day out. 14 And another thing is, there was some of these 15 sort of things there's some pretty radical duty cycles 16 differences between if you got a lamp in a hallway where 17 people are walking by, you know, every day, then you 18 might only be able to save 5 or 10 percent with some 19 sort of occupancy sensor. 20 But if you got a room in the basement that 21 hardly anybody goes to and the kids leave the lights on, 22 then putting an occupancy sensor can save a pretty large 23 amount of money, but it's hard to quantify those 24 benefits. 25 So anyway, those are kind of the concepts going

## Meeting June 17, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 128 1 into this. I've outlined some potential steps that we 2 might want to consider here. And one is just to see if 3 there really is enough interest among some ASHRAE 4 members to participate in this and see how far we can 5 get. 6 Another item is really to help, you know, refine 7 or define what a system really is from their perspective 8 of the members. And then from there, start to brainstorm 9 what are some of the impacts associated with energy 10 efficiency in the systems perspective. And then what of 11 those things fall under some DOE purview as opposed to 12 some of the those things that might be outside of things 13 that DOE can get involved with. 14 So these are just some rough ideas relative to 15 getting the group started, some talking points. And 16 again, we plan to have our first teleconference on July 17 1st, and then I'll report after that hopefully at our -- 18 I think our meeting on July 17th. 19 MR. deLASKI: Okay. 20 MR. CASKEY: Any questions or any other comments 21 from the other volunteers? 22 MR. deLASKI: Thanks for moving that forward, 23 John. And I think we'll have a -- you know, once you 24 have a chance to meet with your other people who 25 volunteered for that group, then you guys could advance

## Meeting June 17, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 129 1 that. 2 MR. ECKMAN: Just as a comment on -- thinking in 3 the near term, seems to me that both pumps and fans are 4 facing system problems because we're trying to look at an 5 integrated product that has -- that might be a part of a 6 system or it might be just the blade. Whatever, it's a 7 pump blade or -- but the pump regulation is now looking 8 at a definition that includes the control and the motor, 9 in addition to the housing and the pump. 10 So that's in and of -- that's a small system, 11 but it has all the pieces John's talked about. And the 12 fan may end up being in a similar case where you've got a 13 motor, a controller, and a blade that's moving the 14 liquid -- or the fluid, in this case. So it -- I don't 15 think we're very far away from having the -- the issues 16 that come about on -- on regulating systems as opposed to 17 pieces of them. It's right in front of us right now with 18 the fans. 19 MS. JAKOBS: This is Diane Jakobs. I think the 20 discussion will be different. You have to worry about 21 usage and applications for systems that -- yeah, it will 22 be a good thing to talk about which is better and what 23 the advantages are; there's an upside to both, yeah. 24 MR. deLASKI: Any other questions for John? 25 Comments? So we look forward to your next report back at

## Meeting June 17, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 130 1 the July meeting. 2 MR. CYMBALSKY: Yeah. I mean, I guess from 3 DOE's perspective, the only thing we need to keep in mind 4 as we work through systems issues is, you know, the 5 statute for lots of these products is very clear on what 6 the regulated thing is, right. And sometimes it's not 7 the thing that we would all like to be able to regulate, 8 so we -- just keep that in mind. 9 MR. deLASKI: Yeah, I think in the past our 10 discussion on systems sometimes it talks about things 11 that DOE can do in the context of the program and 12 sometimes it hasn't. So I mean, I don't think those -- 13 there's anything necessarily out of bounds for this group 14 to talk about. We just need to sort of recognize at what 15 point are we talking about something that can be done 16 through the Appliance Standards Program is something that 17 might be outside the scope of the program, but might be 18 well worth the time of these committee members to talk 19 about. 20 The next topic from last time was test methods, 21 and looking back at the minutes there were five people 22 who agreed to work on this topic and I don't know that 23 we had a chair. 24 MS. JAKOBS: Jen. 25 MR. deLASKI: Was it Jen? It was Kelley, Diane,

## Meeting June 17, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 131 1 Tom, Charlie, and Jen agreed to work on this topic. 2 MS. CLEARY: Sure. So I can report back, the 3 five of us did meet over the past couple of weeks, and 4 just to remind everyone what we were tasked with doing, 5 you know, we talked at our last meeting about a number of 6 different test procedure related issues. And it became 7 very clear during our discussion that this was definitely 8 an area we needed to tackle on this committee and maybe 9 even that this test procedure area was raising to the top 10 of the pile in terms of our priorities. But there were 11 so many different subissues in -- that were part of our 12 discussion that we really needed to categorize and 13 prioritize them in order for ASRAC, as a whole, to decide 14 which, if any, of the topics to pursue. 15 So we did categorize and prioritize. So I guess 16 just in the interest of time I'm going to assume that 17 everyone read the minutes and recalls the issues that we 18 discussed, and I planned to outline them, but I'll skip 19 that if everyone's okay with that and just talk about 20 how we categorized and prioritized. 21 So it occurred to us that several of the issues 22 theoretically could be addressed by the process 23 improvement rule. So one of the first questions we 24 asked was, you know, we don't want to end up just 25 parroting what's already in that rule, and so we would

## Meeting June 17, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 132 1 like to hopefully get some clarity from DOE as to some 2 of the roadblocks that it's facing in particular areas 3 in following what's in that rule. And that -- but that 4 helped us to categorize, I think, what we were looking 5 at and then prioritize. 6 So we saw that the issue of the -- what we -- we 7 categorized into the process improvement rule the 8 sequencing issue of test procedures coming before NOPRs 9 that we talked about actually this morning, as well as 10 identifying priorities and providing a timeline to 11 stakeholders as to what it can -- what we can expect in 12 terms of the rulemaking schedule. 13 And we saw that those two were connected by the 14 need that I think Kelley had proposed during our last 15 meeting of a granular rulemaking timeline. So we decided 16 to move that issue to the top of our priority list. 17 And we think that a good way to proceed there 18 would be to do maybe an example rulemaking where some 19 group of volunteers from this committee would identify, 20 you know, where in the time -- what in the timeline 21 should be shared with stakeholders and what data points. 22 So like I said, we tied the data needs to the 23 timeline as well. And the reason we did that is because 24 we think part of the data issue here is stakeholders 25 needing to know in advance when to start collecting and

## Meeting June 17, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 133 1 providing that information to the department and the 2 department needing to identify for stakeholders early on 3 what data it needs. So that would be first. 4 And then sort of parallel to that would be the 5 data piece and the -- what we're calling mechanisms for 6 following the process improvement rule, where I think we 7 need a little more information from DOE so as to what the 8 roadblocks it sees are in those areas so that we could 9 really target an ASRAC recommendation to those specific 10 roadblocks. 11 For example, if -- you know, what problems do 12 you see right now in identifying and obtaining data? 13 What roadblocks do you see in completing a test procedure 14 rulemaking prior to a NOPR? Those kinds of things. And 15 I think we have a general sense of them, but if DOE could 16 identify specifically for us needs that we might be able 17 to address, that would be helpful. 18 Then the remaining issues, one is test procedure 19 complexity. And I think we talked about, you know, 20 confusion on the test procedure and I think this was an 21 issue that Ashley had raised, you know, questions that 22 are coming up almost immediately or immediately after a 23 test procedure amendment is finalized. And so we 24 thought that that issue which could probably be dealt 25 with with an ASRAC recommendation of some kind of

## Meeting June 17, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 134 1 process for DOE to follow to ensure that labs are doing 2 the tests correctly. Like, maybe it's an education 3 session where everyone visits the same lab or something 4 like that, that that might be a more medium-term goal. 5 And that one I think we placed there on the priority 6 list because it seems relatively simple to address, but 7 the data issues, you know, we think are more important. 8 And then the last two we placed into the 9 longer-term category, and this would be the crosswalk 10 issues which is, you know, the policy to address the 11 situations where a test procedure change impacts 12 measured energy outside of a standards rulemaking. That 13 one is just incredibly complex, and I think maybe we're 14 at some point getting a briefing from OGC on that, I'm 15 guessing it's not today, but it's very complex. And so 16 we felt that that one just is going to take some more 17 time and dedicated effort. 18 And then the last item on our priorities list 19 was the fast-track test procedure idea, which is how DOE 20 could address, you know, some urgent revisions that 21 maybe are not controversial or don't impact measured 22 energy or efficiency on a quicker timeline so that those 23 changes can be made and the test procedure -- you know, 24 for example, maybe updating the versions of industry 25 standards that are incorporated by reference so long as

## Meeting June 17, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 135 1 there are no major changes, things of that nature. But 2 that one we just didn't see as important as the other 3 ones, so that's why we placed it last. 4 So I'm sure there are we questions about that. 5 It's a lot in one -- I should have done the slide, I 6 apologize. Would it be helpful as a next step, you 7 know, we didn't talk about this in the working group? 8 So if others have comments, but, you know, I expect that 9 maybe people want to digest this a little bit, so I'd be 10 glad to volunteer to put out some kind of writing that 11 maybe the working group can make sure is consistent with 12 our discussions and the rest of you can review prior to 13 our next meeting. 14 And then maybe we can -- I don't know if the 15 same members want to continue on a working group to 16 address some of these issues, but I think some of them I 17 would propose, we want to sort of seek volunteers for 18 each one of these as we -- once we decide within the 19 ASRAC which ones we're going to pursue and on which 20 timeline. 21 MS. JAKOBS: So this is Diane. Just to add on. 22 So the impression that I have just from the rulemakings 23 I'm involved in is that the data -- getting the right 24 data is a huge problem or challenge for you -- for the 25 department. But it seems today that you've done --

## Meeting June 17, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 136 1 you've done analysis, and then it gets presented, and 2 then maybe we disagree with it, and then you say, you 3 know, "I need data." 4 I know there's requests for information, but 5 somehow it's hard to know what you're looking for really 6 to respond to that. And so -- so there is just -- 7 difficult to know like what really you're looking for. 8 And there's reluctance to give, like, individual entities 9 to give data, it's easier or seems safer to give it to 10 you as part of a group. So it seems like that whole 11 process is complicated. 12 And we were thinking about like a timeline, that 13 if we just knew that it was like in the five-year period 14 between rulemakings that you're probably going to be 15 doing this, and this is the type of data you would be 16 looking for, you know, would that be helpful? You know, 17 it seems like it would be repeatable. 18 MS. ARMSTRONG: Yeah. I mean, you know, it's 19 not -- it's not this big secret, the type of data we try 20 to seek and we try to collect and use. Many of you have 21 participated before in providing that, and we thank you 22 for that, and John has aggregated data for us before. So 23 sure, we're happy to engage in that conversation about 24 when and what types and what it might look like. You 25 know, at least a certain minimum set of data elements.

## Meeting June 17, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 137 1 I'm sure we can identify, it's a no-brainer that 2 we need shipments by efficiency level by product class 3 per every rule we do. It's not -- I mean, it's just one 4 of the drivers to the impact analysis. So every rule 5 we're going to ask for shipments by a product class, by 6 efficiency level, you know, across the board. So we can 7 definitely work with you. 8 So if you send that around, I'd be happy to -- 9 you and I can talk, John and I can talk, we can provide 10 some level of feedback at least or at least maybe jump on 11 some of the discussions where we might be needed or 12 wanted and help -- help with that dialogue. 13 MR. deLASKI: What I would suggest is, John's 14 going to prepare a draft in consultation with the rest of 15 those members, and then at our July meeting we can talk 16 about what are the next steps, right. What are the right 17 next steps for that? But given that we don't have a 18 document to look at today, we probably should defer that 19 to our next meeting. 20 Any other questions from that one? Then the 21 last one was maximizing bang for the buck which I think 22 was you, Ashley. 23 MS. ARMSTRONG: So I don't have a whole lot to 24 say yet. We've raised the issues internally, we've had 25 those discussions. We don't have OGC here today to

## Meeting June 17, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 138 1 provide an opinion on that one. 2 We are looking at -- you know, I have raised 3 both to John and to counsel that, you know, the committee 4 has raised the issue about, you know, as the look backs 5 progress and how do we get to a point where, you know -- 6 is there any minimum level of analysis we could do to 7 understand that, you know, this one is not right for 8 relooking at, versus this one isn't? 9 So we're having those discussions. When we have 10 some additional information, I'm going to pass it to the 11 committee for you guys to think about more and what 12 would that look like. We're still working on, 13 legal-wise, what is possible. So hang tight on that 14 one, you can keep my name as a to do, please. 15 MR. deLASKI: Okay. 16 MS. ARMSTRONG: And then, the better data one, 17 you know, I gave you our schedules, and to the extent the 18 data stuff we just talked about with regard to the rule. 19 But if we're talking about longer term, you know, kind of 20 like if -- what I would call usage data, consumer usage 21 data, you know, that's kind of you. 22 MR. ECKMAN: I sent a note to the prior work 23 group discussion that laid out some of those questions I 24 think need to be asked of every test procedure as you get 25 into the process of revision. And those are, you know,

## Meeting June 17, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 139 1 what are the test parameters that you actually need data 2 for that drive the answer that you don't have current 3 data for and going through and systematically looking at 4 each of those as the test procedure gets scheduled to be 5 reviewed. 6 So everybody has a forecast of when that data 7 would be useful. Because it takes a while to go collect 8 it sometimes, sometimes more than years. And as a 9 consequence, and knowing when that was coming down the 10 pike and what those data elements were that were most 11 critical, where you think there's nothing being collected 12 right now or no data set available or you've had to guess 13 in the past, it seems to be laying that out in a sort of 14 systematic schedule that maybe goes with the regulatory 15 agenda or is more expansive or even longer term than a 16 regulatory agenda. Because in some cases with the 17 regulatory agenda, there's not even lead time enough to 18 collect it. So it's just knowing you've got the six-year 19 review cycles. We lay it out for the next six years and 20 say, "By 2021 we need this. Anybody going to give us 21 that by 2021?" 22 Do they know now that they need to get? Because 23 it takes a while to organize, particularly if it needs to 24 be a representative study across the country to do that, 25 then the northwest doing it doesn't help -- it helps

## Meeting June 17, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 140 1 some, but it's not necessarily representative. We are 2 granola crunchers, after all. 3 And that's something, you know, we'll pass along 4 as that work groups' product in terms of, here's a 5 suggestion of a product that would be mutually useful for 6 our parties. 7 MS. ARMSTRONG: Great. Thanks. 8 MR. deLASKI: Anything else on this third item? 9 All right. So in summary, we're expecting a 10 couple of memos from the first two groups, and before our 11 discussion meeting in July and the recommendation -- 12 (inaudible) plan for further (inaudible). That's what we 13 have for our planned agenda are the -- are there other 14 topics that other members want to bring up or that ASRAC 15 members want to bring up? We can open that up. And I 16 think it's been in our practice that we open it up for 17 comments. 18 So no audience? We can open it up to the 19 webinar. People on the webinar have anything they want 20 to share with the committee? 21 Ashley? 22 MS. ARMSTRONG: I just want to point out one 23 thing after we do this, it's just process. 24 MR. deLASKI: Do you want another moment? 25 Anything?

## Meeting June 17, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 141 1 MS. ARMSTRONG: All righty. So just as a 2 process matter, for the next call we are hopefully going 3 to have a nomination package for you guys. So I would 4 expect two webinars: A 30-minute webinar for private 5 discussion of nomination of that working group where we 6 discuss, and then the -- you'll see a different link for 7 the public part of the webinar so that the public can 8 join us for the rest of -- any of the rest of the 9 discussion we may want to have. 10 MS. MILLER: Can the -- it's Deborah. Can 11 Jeremiah or someone in your office just send an e-mail to 12 everyone so that we make sure that everyone has those 13 dates and times, please? 14 MS. ARMSTRONG: Yeah, yeah, yeah. We'll do 15 that. Do you guys want invites? Do you actually want 16 calendar invites? Is that easier? 17 MS. MILLER: That would be fabulous. 18 MS. ARMSTRONG: All right. Consider it done. 19 We'll send out a calendar invite and it will have the 20 webinar information in it. I just want to acknowledge 21 that, at least, part of the meeting next time because we 22 will need to do that needs to be private. So you do have 23 two separate things to deal with. So be on the look out 24 for that. 25 MR. deLASKI: So I just want to -- we did the

## Meeting June 17, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 142 1 scheduling here before we actually did the substance 2 here. So why don't we just confirm with the folks who 3 are in all the working groups, do you feel that that's 4 going to give us enough time to adequately discuss the 5 topics that you want to, you know, bring back to the 6 larger group? 7 Basically we're going to -- if we can get the 8 nominations in a half an hour -- which I hope we can -- 9 kind of depends on whether it's anything difficult or 10 not; it hasn't been the last couple times. Then we have 11 an hour and a half to talk about these topics. Is that 12 sufficient? 13 MS. ARMSTRONG: I think that's enough to at 14 least get us started. I expect we'll just be sort of 15 getting everyone's sense at least on the test procedure 16 topics of next steps, so it might not be a substantive 17 discussion. 18 MR. deLASKI: Yeah, we'll have job topics and 19 other topics you've got the leads for. 20 So okay. So we'll stick with a two-hour total 21 block for that, then. All right. Thanks, everybody. 22 Productive day. Appreciate everyone's participation, and 23 I think we're adjourned. 24 (End of audio.) 25

### Meeting June 17, 2015 

### 143 1 CERTIFICATE OF REPORTER 2 3 I, Kylie S. Shepherd, Certified Shorthand 4 Reporter, CERTIFY I was authorized to transcribe the 5 proceedings, and the foregoing transcript is a true and 6 accurate record. 7 I FURTHER CERTIFY that I am not a relative, 8 employee, attorney, or counsel of any of the parties, nor 9 am I a relative or employee of any of the parties' 10 attorney or counsel connected with the action, nor am I 11 financially interested in the action. 12 Dated this 18th day of June, 2015. 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25



### 202-220-4158 8

. Kylie S. Shepherd



### Henderson Legal Services, Inc. www.hendersonlegalservices.com

## Meeting June 17, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 1 A a.m 116:19 ability31:3,24

41:13 able4:13 8:12

10:18 21:20 30:20 34:7 35:15 36:5 39:19 41:23 49:23 50:1 59:22 60:8 65:15 74:10 74:11 81:10 81:12 82:3 84:17 85:22 85:23 86:7 87:18,24 88:21 89:3 124:11 125:25 127:18 130:7 133:16 absent 16:8 abstention

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11:8 12:8 15:20 19:16 19:19 20:4 37:3,16 38:15 44:14 66:16,17 68:13 71:1 77:2 101:20 106:8 112:19 116:20 117:2 118:6 air-cooled

20:4 48:10 alarm 40:7 albeit86:25 Alex3:1 all-day7:12

19:13,13 Allied82:21 allow27:16

## Meeting June 17, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 2 55:24 90:22 95:1 120:7 allowance

83:5 allowed 37:19

64:4 89:8 allows 16:8

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21:13 32:6 40:3 42:5 44:13 83:21 94:14 121:2 aspect61:22 ASRAC1:1

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## Meeting June 17, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 3 133:9,25 135:19 140:14 assemblies

47:18 assembly

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128:8 break4:6 50:6

66:15 101:6 113:10 bridge48:9 briefing

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32:11 33:3 87:1 91:10 91:13 92:10 140:14,15

## Meeting June 17, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 4 142:5 bringing 39:25

87:8 brings 81:13 broad 9:10,16

13:11 14:1 34:25 broader4:9

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7:3 calendar

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57:25 74:9 75:24 76:9 76:13 82:6 127:7 certainty 15:15

16:6 108:16 CERTIFICATE

143:1 Certified 143:3 CERTIFY

143:4,7 certifying34:2 chain 34:21 chair 130:23 challenge23:6

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69:9

## Meeting June 17, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 5 charter81:17

82:4 122:8 122:24 chartered 7:17

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81:15 88:4 check53:9

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2:18,18 52:20 57:4 60:20 61:16 65:8,12 73:22 75:12 83:7 88:17 94:24 102:23 103:7,10,13 109:4 131:2 climate 104:12

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## Meeting June 17, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 6 compared

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13:6 context 12:11

14:24,25 88:25 130:11 continue4:7

4:14 27:17 81:9 87:13 121:4 135:15 contractor

31:21 contractors

9:4,7 31:16 31:18,24 66:23 control 125:15

125:19 126:24 127:1 129:8 controller

129:13 controlling

125:16 controls 37:4

## Meeting June 17, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 7 127:5,10 controversial

134:21 conversation

19:12 108:13 119:2 136:23 conversations

4:7 104:9 conversions

98:11 cooking 114:8 coolant68:13 cooled 58:5 cooling 127:3 cooperated

110:9 cooperation

8:17 57:7 cooperative

57:15 cooperatively

53:5 cope64:17 correct 18:15

20:17 94:22 correction 5:7 correctly

103:20 134:2 cost47:9 costs 126:1 Council 2:16 counsel 11:5

59:8 62:11 138:3 143:8 143:10 country

139:24 couple6:8

7:14,21 8:14 14:10 19:10 27:8 50:10 52:17 55:25 60:21 83:5 86:13 87:17 93:17 112:2 116:16 120:19 131:3 140:10 142:10 course7:2

9:11,14 67:3 93:6 court67:9,12 cover33:21

61:21 124:25 coverage

61:17 62:2,8 covered 13:4

13:14 44:17 44:25 45:5,8 45:9 56:7,22 57:1 61:19 61:23 65:19 76:7 106:15 create 66:16

99:4 created 21:7 creates 5:16

5:19 6:1 16:9 creating 77:4 credit8:11 crew 92:6 critical 139:11 cross-cutting

4:9 111:1 cross-section

86:2 crossovers

63:16 crosswalk

134:9 crunchers

140:2 curb28:2 curious26:17 current3:18

6:16 10:19 19:22,24 20:11 72:16 92:17 139:2 currently

23:25 72:12 curve43:5,5 cycle 17:11,11

18:5 cycles 16:9

17:15 127:15 139:19 Cymbalsky 1:9

6:19 82:19 92:1 96:19 98:7,15,22 100:16 101:17 102:22,25 103:6,9,11 104:8 106:3 106:21 107:3 107:13,15,20 107:24 108:4 108:10 109:2 111:13 112:14 113:6 113:10 114:7 115:5,7,11 115:13,22,25 116:4,7,11 116:14 118:6 118:22 121:19,24 122:5,19 123:2,6,25 124:2 130:2 D D2:1 D.C 118:5 Daikin 7:3 data36:21,22

37:2 44:19 58:23 65:15 71:6 87:1,8 90:23 91:13 96:6 100:5 106:5,11 132:21,22,24 133:3,5,12 134:7 135:23 135:24 136:3 136:9,15,19 136:22,25 138:16,18,20 138:21 139:1 139:3,6,10 139:12 date 10:3,3,6

15:11,24 18:5 22:1 24:18 34:5,7 39:7 90:20 91:17 94:13 95:1 104:24 104:24 105:2 106:18,19 107:21 108:5 109:13 123:13 Dated 143:12 dates 8:3 10:8

10:12 14:16 15:20 17:8,8 17:14 18:9 19:16 24:13 24:14 28:11 29:2 66:5 107:16 141:13 Dave 1:22 7:3

9:14 69:5,7,8 69:16 70:8 77:20 78:5 82:21 85:4 102:25 103:2 Dave's3:2

107:11 David 1:6,14 3:3 4:24 5:6 13:13 33:6 116:14,14,25 124:17 David's5:21

5:23 day34:13 62:3

62:4 73:7 105:9 106:7 106:8 127:2 127:10,12,13 127:17 142:22 143:12 days55:24

73:14 88:9 91:3,9,11,25 92:1,11,22 deadline39:5

39:9 54:15 54:16,18 59:1,4 81:19 82:22 87:25 90:8 91:15 93:23 97:8 98:6 99:8 103:19,24 104:2 105:24 106:2 108:25 deadlines 82:2

82:6,7 104:7 deadlock

52:23 deal 29:22

48:17 49:11 117:24 118:1 141:23 dealing 32:21

77:6 124:15 deals 19:18 dealt20:7

133:24 Deborah 1:20

2:22 13:13

## Meeting June 17, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 8 26:9 32:13 37:21 39:4 41:8 122:17 141:10 Deborah's

40:2 decades 42:25 December

84:7 91:16 91:17 98:6 99:8 101:11 101:15,16 104:2 107:4 121:19 122:12 decide 61:21

99:4 131:13 135:18 decided 14:18

40:6,13 42:13 65:20 132:15 decision 59:23

63:3 65:6 104:15 decisions 39:8

40:15 41:14 59:21 83:13 88:9 declined 78:9 dedicated

134:17 deems 62:16 deeply99:19 defend 43:19 defense 78:4 defer 137:18 define5:12

36:5 46:23 55:10,10 58:6 128:7 defined 26:5

31:8 61:2 126:22 defining 5:17 5:19 6:1 definite64:19 definitely

131:7 137:7 definition

27:13,16 31:11 57:10 77:14 126:20 126:20 129:8 definitions

57:19 59:12 deLaski 1:10

2:4,11,24 3:6 3:13 5:6,14 5:18,21,24 6:5,24 7:7 12:10,20 13:25 17:2 17:16 18:11 19:5 20:1,16 22:3,5,15 23:21 24:4 24:10 26:19 26:25 28:7 28:12,19 29:5 32:10 33:2,10 39:9 39:12 42:8 43:5,12 44:20 46:3 46:21 51:9 53:16 54:4,8 54:15,18,20 55:5,8 56:25 60:12 65:1 65:23 66:9 68:1 69:1,7 69:16,19 71:25 72:5,7 72:23,25 73:6,18 80:13 82:14 83:15,20,24 84:3 85:3 90:11,16 91:6,25 93:6 93:11 97:12 98:13 99:17 102:16 103:2 103:5 104:20 106:13 108:1 108:8,17,21 108:23 109:3 109:23 110:5 110:23 111:18,21,24 112:16 113:1 113:3,8,12 113:21,25 114:2,6,9,13 114:21,25 115:9,12,15 115:19,24 116:1,10,12 116:18,23 117:7,12,17 117:21 118:8 118:11,13,18 118:21 119:1 119:8,11,16 119:19,23 120:3,5,10 120:14,16 121:14,23 122:1,24 123:5,7,15 123:19 124:6 128:19,22 129:24 130:9 130:25 137:13 138:15 140:8 140:24 141:25 142:18 delay43:21

102:20 demanding 24:20 demonstrated

53:24 demonstrati...

9:16 65:15 department

9:22 13:24 14:4,4 32:14 32:24 34:2 61:20 74:15 76:3 79:8 81:2 88:15 88:21,25 89:6 91:10 120:18 121:2 133:1,2 135:25 department's

14:5 71:17 72:21 78:12 83:10 105:23 depend 16:2 depending

34:18,24 47:12 51:21 93:3 depends

100:15 122:10 142:9 describe41:1

66:24 described

18:13 22:24 23:19 24:13 27:11 39:17 65:6 describing

61:2 design 10:24

10:25 16:9 25:19,19 47:15 84:20 90:3 designed 46:7 56:19 designee

113:4 117:1 designees

112:18 designer

50:14 designs 37:6 desire 8:2,6

15:19 desires 60:7 detailed 36:6

51:11 details23:1

45:21 52:6 79:20 determine

17:22 79:17 determined

13:5 develop60:21 developed

16:18,19 developing

27:16 development

16:21 device 126:10

126:11,12,25 devices

125:16 126:23 devil's50:24 dialogue86:19

87:19,20 137:12 Diane 1:15

2:13 6:25 13:15 15:17 22:12 25:9 27:20 28:19 32:2 33:15 35:19 36:14

## Meeting June 17, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 9 37:21 39:17 42:22 44:1 46:16,22 49:15 50:9 53:20 55:2 56:5 60:14 63:4 73:1 76:6 89:13 96:2 100:3 106:17 107:8 114:25 124:18 129:19 130:25 135:21 Diane's 6:24

20:17 26:22 28:13 dictate 16:23 differences

89:5 127:16 different 12:14

22:8,9 30:9 33:21 35:3 38:3 41:20 46:6,18 52:3 55:19 56:20 58:9 60:3,6,7 60:7,19 61:9 62:5,23 63:5 63:6 75:17 75:19 76:5 82:24 94:23 123:17 129:20 131:6 131:11 141:6 differently

54:6 difficult5:12

37:15 64:9 73:25 74:8 76:11 82:12 119:3 127:8 136:7 142:9 difficulty65:9 digest 135:9 dilemmas

20:23 direct 11:7,23

12:1,17 13:9 direction

46:15 50:5,6 76:19 99:2 directly 122:2

122:2 dirty 106:9 disagree 136:2 disagreeme...

93:21 disappears

37:17 discipline 8:17 disciplined

8:12 discuss 53:18

60:25 61:7 74:5 80:2,3 80:10 83:6 92:12,13 99:6,8 141:6 142:4 discussed

45:11,16 61:25 62:10 75:13 76:10 85:22,24 99:24 125:7 131:18 discussing

89:4 97:5 99:9 116:17 discussion

27:21 34:14 35:5,21 39:2 49:25 52:16 58:1 64:14 70:9 71:23 73:8 75:1 78:14 85:10 87:7 93:22 109:4 110:5 110:15 124:15,23 129:20 130:10 131:7 131:12 138:23 140:11 141:5 141:9 142:17 discussions

4:15 39:25 49:7 59:8 71:4,22 79:13 81:4,8 87:12 88:1 89:1 95:3 99:19 110:4 124:23 135:12 137:11,25 138:9 disrupt46:17 distinction

103:15,16 distribute

112:15 distributed

3:21 7:10 distribution

125:21,24 126:4 distributors

66:22 divisions

59:18 docket43:14

111:15 document

137:18 DOE2:21 6:19

7:17,21 10:4 11:14 12:25 13:18 14:21 17:9,15,21 17:21 18:7 20:21 21:8 29:17 30:13 32:17 41:22 52:17 57:23 59:9 60:4 61:16,24 62:7,11,17 65:16 67:8 68:21 70:11 70:13,15,17 70:22,25 71:8 72:2 74:4 77:8,23 78:8 80:11 86:25 87:2,3 92:18 96:19 101:17 102:7 103:22 113:6 113:7 119:23 128:11,13 130:11 132:1 133:7,15 134:1,19 DOE's 13:8

20:20 58:4 59:9 70:1,4 71:10 98:18 101:11 102:5 102:10 104:17 130:3 dog 99:13 doing 16:13,22

19:9 32:6 33:1 46:18 60:1,16 94:11 96:14 99:10 102:3 102:13 107:24 108:15 113:16 122:11,21 131:4 134:1 136:15 139:25 dominating

64:12 door 11:3 double85:7

101:25 102:6 doubling

42:18 doubt51:15 downstream

43:10 draft71:2

137:14 drag 43:24

85:8 draw27:5

34:18 drawback31:2 drawing 34:20

88:14 drawn 100:1 drive 139:2 drivers 137:4 drives 16:18

25:10,10 driving 115:5 dual-duct27:6

28:5 duct28:3 due 18:1,2,8 duration 36:3 duty 127:15 dynamic60:19 dynamics

63:25 E E 1:3,3,20 2:1

2:1 e-mail 141:11 eagerness

## Meeting June 17, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 10 118:5 earlier3:19

19:1 24:13 24:16 28:9 56:12 75:9 76:25 96:24 96:25 97:7,8 99:2,15 107:16 109:7 119:2 early 14:8

21:16,19 105:5 107:17 108:25 116:12 133:2 easier 125:17

136:9 141:16 East 116:13 eastern 116:19

120:8 Eckman 1:11

2:15,15 12:7 12:15 91:18 91:23 92:5 114:11,17 115:1 119:10 119:13 129:2 138:22 economic

16:12 edit5:7,18,22

5:23 13:22 education

126:14 134:2 EER 10:19 effect 10:13

16:1 108:2 126:6 effective 10:3

15:20 19:20 66:13,13 effectively

9:25 74:10 effectiveness 4:11 23:5 efficiencies

25:12 efficiency5:3

5:3,4,12,15 5:24,25 6:3 9:8 12:23 13:5,16 15:7 19:20 20:2 24:23 25:2 25:20,23 32:25 37:10 37:11,12 47:6,8 59:17 70:10 87:9 125:4,10,19 126:5,11 127:9 128:10 134:22 137:2 137:6 efficient21:1

47:23 effort34:6

64:10 134:17 eight 18:3

115:13 either51:18

54:12 103:4 106:14 108:12 124:5 electric 63:13 element21:24

65:22 elements 7:13

11:19 71:6 95:15 136:25 139:10 elephant64:1

64:16 elephant-in-t...

57:14 eliminated

37:6 39:18 elongate 101:18 103:15 eloquently

101:19 embedded

48:10,15,15 employee

143:8,9 employees

31:8 encompass

87:15 encourage

54:14,16 encouraging

60:5,11 end-of-the-y...

104:2 108:25 ended 19:7,9 ends 35:19

62:3 121:9 energy2:23

7:23 13:7 14:19 15:1 16:12 20:2 20:13,13,16 20:18 21:24 22:11,18 25:15 32:25 38:21 44:23 45:5 59:17 63:9,18 65:13,21 70:10 75:17 75:25 125:13 125:24 126:1 126:5,17 127:8 128:9 134:12,22 enforcement

30:8,8 78:21 engage 136:23 engineering

87:9 enormous 15:4,6 40:9 ensure 134:1 entail 93:12 entertain

42:11,14 entities 136:8 entity31:20 environmental

9:9 EPA28:22 equal 14:25

15:1 121:6 equipment

15:4 22:7,19 24:25 25:1,2 26:12 27:22 28:1,4,5 34:2 36:23 38:15 38:25 44:4 45:2,3,4 48:11,14,16 49:6 60:15 equivocally

34:21 essentially

26:5 92:13 94:15,18 establish 99:4 established

29:17 58:5 establishing

67:4 Europe3:7

28:21 evaluate96:10 evaporator

50:12 evening 111:5 everybody

3:12 5:21 8:11 32:23 110:21 114:19 123:12 139:6 142:21 everybody's

86:11 everyone's

54:24 131:19 142:15,22 evidence

40:25 evidenced

53:7 evolution

125:14 exact 18:8 exactly44:2

64:15 75:14 example 89:7

105:13 126:4 132:18 133:11 134:24 excellent

79:19 exchange

77:25 79:13 79:15 exchanged

33:18 exclude 62:25

65:20 excluded

38:25 44:13 exclusion

48:18 exclusions

49:10 exclusive

56:15 excuse 7:7

41:9 executive

31:14 exempt45:4 exempted 27:9

## Meeting June 17, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 11 exercise 86:8

86:9 exist25:13

26:15 existing 17:12

126:9 exists 82:7 expansive

139:15 expect36:9

37:6 42:19 74:3,10 132:11 135:8 141:4 142:14 expectation

11:24 expected

110:18 expecting

140:9 expense47:16

64:10 expensive

125:23 experience

68:12 89:8 95:18 110:11 expert20:17

97:14,15 explain 101:15 explained 11:6 explanation

86:20 explicitly27:9

27:10 explore 10:19 exposure

59:19 express 22:23

117:4 extend 34:7

36:3 40:8,24 52:22 53:15 55:22 59:3 62:1 102:14 extended 34:6

52:4 54:2 extending

35:13,17 53:14 55:24 62:8 extension

42:11,15 92:10 extensions

93:7 extensive

94:11 extent77:6,24

138:17 external

100:24 extra 66:2

95:13 108:7 extreme26:16 extremely

30:19,21 F F 1:7 fabulous 141:17 FACA122:14 face20:22

62:24 face-to-face

41:13 98:2 105:16 112:9 113:20 facilitator

46:10 facilitators

46:9 66:10 facing 119:3 129:4 132:2 fact 17:7 46:14

61:4 74:1 75:21 factions 63:6 63:11 factor5:5,11

5:13,17,19 6:1 factors 16:11

59:19,19 fail 126:7,8 fails 126:12,16 fair79:4,7 fairly 13:3 36:6

50:25 82:6 faith 104:18 fall 128:11 falls 6:16 familiar43:2

43:11 125:21 fan 20:13,16

20:19 21:24 22:11,18,20 34:15,16,16 34:25 36:5 36:15,17,23 37:1,6,8,10 37:11,12,23 38:1,25 44:25 45:5,6 45:12,12,13 45:17,18 47:1,5,18,21 47:21,23 48:4 50:12 50:23 117:18 118:3 129:12 fan's23:6 fans3:23

20:14,19 22:11 33:13 34:23 35:3,4 36:20 38:3,6 38:6,12,14 41:23,23 44:23 45:14 45:15,15,22 48:10,13,15 48:19 52:7 56:6 64:2 117:25 118:2 119:2,4 124:25,25 127:4 129:3 129:18 far38:21 53:4

56:14 71:24 75:16 112:13 124:17 125:6 128:4 129:15 fast 110:19 fast-track 134:19 federal 21:20

66:10 feedback3:4

5:1 14:5,6,9 78:7 88:18 137:10 feel 51:22 64:1

67:6,9,15,18 88:20 97:8 142:3 feet85:8 felt22:16

37:23 89:23 134:16 FEMALE7:6

72:4 114:5 114:18 116:22 117:16,18 118:10,20,23 119:7,14 120:4,9,12 120:15 121:11 122:3 123:17 field 109:15 fifth 27:6 fight99:13 figure21:5 36:5 44:18 48:19 115:4 final 10:5,23 11:7,23 12:1 12:2,6,17 13:9 14:17 18:2,2,3,4,23 19:12,12 33:2 41:3 56:25 72:9 74:16 80:5 81:2,6 87:22 89:7 91:17 94:10,16 95:5,7 96:11 96:22 97:1 106:18 109:1 110:13 finalize 62:19

80:8 83:14 finalized 7:12

74:22,25 75:6,8,11,15 75:19 133:23 financially 143:11 find 2:8 33:8

43:16 48:25 73:24 74:7 finds 19:3 fine80:3,11 106:5 107:3 116:23 117:10 finish 15:17

58:20,25 65:25 72:7 107:15,17 113:8 finished 69:17 108:15 first3:15 6:13

7:16 14:2

## Meeting June 17, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 12 20:7 30:5,7 39:13,13 42:19 54:18 67:7 71:13 73:15 76:9 77:1 80:3 83:13,23 91:24 92:6 93:16 97:17 97:20 98:2 101:22 104:9 105:4 112:3 113:25 124:13,21 128:16 131:23 133:3 140:10 fit39:14 46:13 104:13 five 18:22,24

58:5 65:23 97:10 107:17 130:21 131:3 five-year 108:6 108:16 136:13 fix21:6 fixed 28:3 flag 94:2 flex 10:3 flexibility9:23 11:4,7,15,18 12:16 31:4 flight 111:5 fluid 129:14 flux84:14 fly30:20 focus 8:13

61:11 focused 8:18

29:21 folks23:9 31:7

50:2 66:10 68:19 72:1 105:18 110:24 124:8 142:2 follow 134:1 follow-on

84:23 following 119:16 121:16 132:3 133:6 forecast 139:6 foregoing 143:5 forever52:8 forgetting 3:11 forgotten 115:10 form 5:4,5,11

5:12,17,19 6:1 83:15,16 83:17 97:22 108:24 113:15,22 formal 54:10 formed 4:2,13

8:9 93:13,14 104:22 112:19 115:21 forming 9:17

71:19 76:8 formula56:18 forum 79:19

92:13 101:18 102:6 103:14 forward 9:19 11:25 12:6 17:9 30:25 36:9,10 39:2 41:22 43:16 51:2,12 53:10,13 56:1,1 64:17 65:3 76:14 81:8 83:14 87:21,22 109:6 128:22 129:25 found 65:3 four 10:1 11:2 11:19 24:18 35:15 40:19 59:2 66:1 83:8 101:1 four-month

59:4 fourth 4:25

35:19 frame7:19

28:17 82:17 104:13 free53:17 93:6

97:8 freezer58:8 frequency

25:10 frequently

93:8 Friday 116:7 Fried 1:12 front2:6 18:21

69:13 84:11 85:23 104:11 129:17 frozen 50:11 fulfilling 4:9 full 3:10 17:23

31:4 67:16 85:18 98:19 99:22 100:9 118:3 121:5 function 62:18 functional

64:23 functioning 126:9 fundamental

5:10 43:22 fundamentally 87:7 furnace6:18 11:9 77:2 furnaces 8:5 15:20 19:17 19:19,22 66:12 68:13 further 10:14

35:17 90:20 110:5,15 140:12 143:7 future 15:15

30:15 31:12 71:24 77:12 G G 2:1 gains25:20 gap48:9 GE 2:14 11:11 Geez7:20 general 11:5

12:9 37:2 100:24 109:5 133:15 generalizable

12:12 generate

90:22 generation

62:4,4 genuine52:13 geography

123:1,2 getting 3:4

4:25 16:11 25:21 30:25 34:13 39:24 40:2 45:20 54:24 63:1 67:22 71:19 73:12,13 80:19 81:5 83:2 94:9 99:6 102:3 110:13 121:11 125:22 127:12 128:15 134:14 135:23 142:15 gist 106:2 give 12:15

13:18 15:17 17:16 23:9 28:19 36:6 36:22 37:2 43:14 55:15 66:24 67:16 68:7 79:23 81:16,18 84:16 86:1 88:12,14 90:21 91:4 92:21 104:17 107:6 110:19 121:6 124:11 136:8,9,9 139:20 142:4 given 7:23,24

8:5 12:14 35:25 67:10 67:18,18 68:10 100:19 111:24 119:1 119:2 137:17 gives78:11

108:10 122:8 123:19 giving 13:23

14:4 32:8 51:23 68:19 88:5 90:8 94:6,19 glad 110:9

## Meeting June 17, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 13 135:10 glance 6:8 go21:19 28:15

41:15 45:15 46:4 48:8 51:2 52:12 58:22 62:19 64:4,17 68:11 71:6,9 73:11 77:5 77:14 78:6 81:4 83:13 89:6 93:14 99:3,5 103:25 106:9 106:10 113:9 113:12 114:13 126:6 139:7 goal 134:4 goal's 54:24 goals 104:12 goes 38:3,21

62:3,5 100:25 122:14 127:21 139:14 going 3:17

7:21 9:6 18:9 18:15 20:10 22:6,8,12,16 25:14 27:13 28:13,20 30:14 37:18 37:18 39:7 40:16 42:6 42:10 43:25 44:17 45:8,9 45:15 46:17 46:23 48:16 48:17,21 49:8 51:13 51:15,17 53:12,13 54:24 55:22 57:6 59:23 62:22 66:5,7 66:8 75:7 77:9 79:9,10 80:15,18 81:3,7,10,11 81:17 82:9 83:21 85:14 86:15 89:1,6 92:2 93:4 98:9,16,17 98:17 99:1,4 99:20 100:13 102:18 104:3 104:3,13 108:8 109:7 109:12,25 110:17 112:22 113:10,14 114:18 115:7 117:23 119:14 120:2 120:21 123:23 124:10 126:9 127:25 131:16 134:16 135:19 136:14 137:5 137:14 138:10 139:3 139:20 141:2 142:4,7 good 15:10

30:11 31:25 32:8,22 33:1 33:6,8,10 34:1 35:14 35:24 40:22 56:10 58:1 59:11 67:19 71:13 73:14 78:12 84:19 88:19 89:12 89:23 95:7 99:17 104:18 105:8 109:16 113:20 118:20 119:8 122:20,21,22 123:22,24 124:5 125:3 126:4 129:22 132:17 Goodman 7:3 gosh 97:2 gotten 27:22

35:22 36:4 government

9:14 government's

72:11 granola 140:2 granular

132:15 grasp50:1 great3:6 50:8

55:22 76:18 77:11 84:14 124:14 140:7 greater48:11 Greg 32:3 grew 16:17,24 ground 105:9 groundwork

14:14 group3:20,21

3:24,25 4:1,2 6:18,18,22 7:2,5,17 8:8 8:11,15,17 13:17,21 15:18,21 19:7 20:11 22:12,22,23 22:25 23:7 25:5 27:5 29:6,15,17 30:2,5,7,9,10 30:19 31:22 33:14,24 35:12,14 36:19,20 40:8,10,18 41:24 43:6 46:25 48:12 48:19 49:1 50:5 51:10 53:19,21 55:5 58:16 60:20,25 61:15 62:17 63:16,18,21 64:5,11,24 66:15,16,19 67:4,13 69:21 74:6 75:5 76:8,15 79:1 80:10 80:12,15,19 80:21 81:15 81:25 85:1 86:16 88:4 89:9,22 91:12 92:11 93:2,13,14 93:22 94:2,5 95:5 97:22 99:5,5,10 101:7,22 102:12 104:21 106:17 108:24 110:16 113:11,15,19 113:22 115:20 116:20 117:1 117:3,25 118:2,3 121:15 124:15 126:13 128:15,25 130:13 132:19 135:7 135:11,15 136:10 138:23 141:5 142:6 group's57:25 groups3:18

6:16 11:14 30:15 32:25 33:22 36:17 55:20 59:12 59:16 60:6 60:15,17,18 60:22 61:3 61:11 63:5 63:11,14,19 63:20 68:18 68:21 102:9 103:24 112:6 117:14 122:8 140:10 142:3 groups' 140:4 guess 34:8

38:12 46:5 47:12 49:24 53:6 54:10 57:5 68:16 73:22 84:9 84:11 94:25 96:23 99:17 103:7 130:2 131:15 139:12 guessing

134:15 guide97:15

## Meeting June 17, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 14 guys79:2,25

82:16 97:6 97:11 119:24 120:23 128:25 138:11 141:3 141:15 H half39:3 91:7

97:10 106:8 142:8,11 hallway

127:16 hand 66:13 handful 80:3 handle36:3 handled 64:8 handler44:14 handout

111:17 hang 138:13 happen 16:4

28:22 37:8 43:25 73:9 73:17 80:16 98:21 102:12 111:9 happened

29:22 53:4 109:21 happening

73:14 96:7 109:10 happens 90:2

93:8 happy67:17

87:3 113:3 117:5 136:23 137:8 hard 29:13

39:8 41:14 41:17 59:4 79:1 88:8 101:11,15 102:11 127:23 136:5 HARDI66:22

69:4,19 HARDI's68:7 Hardy4:4 harm 106:4,12 Harris 3:8

121:1 hate86:22 head 51:13,16

73:4 81:9 healthy80:22

81:1 hear3:4,5

17:17 22:12 40:25 67:20 67:21 69:16 88:17 95:11 95:18 109:3 110:6 heard 11:17

15:19 55:19 56:3 57:5 72:13 74:23 75:9 89:23 90:1 93:11 101:10 hearing 4:20

80:14 82:5 hearkening

84:12 heat20:5 25:3

66:18 88:6 100:10 105:7 112:20 heating 25:4 held 42:23 help2:9 28:13

29:1 43:14 46:11,15,24 49:12 50:5,6 55:10 88:22 128:6 137:12 137:12 139:25 helped 30:19

66:12 132:4 helpful 30:21

32:22 68:15 88:20 89:1 133:17 135:6 136:16 helps 139:25 hesitant40:8

51:23 hesitate39:12 hesitating

84:21 hesitation

84:10 hey45:12 HFCs28:18,20 Hi 3:3 26:9 high 17:5

126:11 high-level 17:2 higher 10:8

37:11 history67:12

67:18,23 68:10 hold 102:2 holding 31:21 home2:18

63:12,15 Hon 1:13 2:20

2:20 17:6,6 18:6,6 22:1,4 55:17,17 56:8,11 59:6 59:6 61:24 61:24 63:10 63:10 64:13 64:13,15 65:11 66:4 81:24,24 hook54:11 hope30:10

37:7 41:23 46:8 48:2 54:20 58:25 65:21 142:8 hopeful 43:13

50:3 86:19 hopefully4:12

32:10 34:6 39:1 43:12 43:14 53:3,5 54:21 80:23 83:22 95:5 97:23 128:17 132:1 141:2 hopes34:20 hoping 71:22

87:23 116:4 horsepower

50:18 host 16:3 hour 105:10

118:25 142:8 142:11 hours 115:2

118:25 120:7 house59:8,9 housing 129:9 huge57:16

135:24 Huh-uh 91:6 Hungerford

1:14 3:2,3,3 4:24 5:9,16 5:20 6:2 9:15 33:8 116:15 116:16 117:5 117:10 124:17 HVAC38:10

38:15,24 44:3,13 45:2 45:4,22 60:15 125:1 126:12,16 hybrid58:7

60:22I ice57:12,18

57:19,19 61:5,13 62:1 62:2,3,4,8 64:5 idea5:10

21:18 34:19 71:13 73:19 73:23 109:18 134:19 ideas 128:14 identified 7:25 identify44:18

88:23 132:19 133:2,16 137:1 identifying

132:10 133:12 IEER 10:21,24

16:19 20:12 20:20 22:7 22:18,20 25:3 45:5 imagine 81:18 immediate

36:1 84:22 immediately

84:22 133:22 133:22 impact26:14

30:24 70:5 75:16,24 81:3 85:11 86:3 100:20 100:22 109:14,19 134:21 137:4

## Meeting June 17, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 15 impacted

110:1 impacting

81:11 84:19 impacts 31:12

31:13 81:14 85:12 128:9 134:11 impending

110:3 impetus43:15 implement

11:25 78:24 implementat...

18:19 importance

67:22 96:18 important7:16

9:20 13:9,19 21:19 27:12 38:20 43:8 45:10 65:2 90:8 96:5,21 100:21 134:7 135:2 impose 104:25 imposed 82:2 imposing

103:21 impression

135:22 impressive

115:8 improve4:11 improvement

15:13,14 16:6 19:21 24:23 25:2 25:14 74:2 74:13 131:23 132:7 133:6 improving

15:7 25:23 inaudible 23:12 49:3 69:14 78:2,3 79:18 85:16 111:20,23,23 115:18 117:19 120:4 122:3 140:12 140:12 inclination

40:17 inclined 40:23

40:24 include 10:17

10:22,24 22:17 included 9:2,8

20:20 44:4,5 57:12 61:17 includes 25:3

25:9 126:23 127:1,2,3 129:8 including 13:4

60:3 78:7 incorporated

14:5,6 134:25 increase47:7 increasing

10:20 incredibly

134:13 independent

63:16 89:16 independently

56:13 indicated

65:16 68:4 indicates

74:16 indicating 3:9 indication

48:23 78:12 individual 47:4 126:23 136:8 individually

61:21 industrial 3:23

33:13 38:7 62:5 industry8:2

27:4 28:25 38:22 77:9 77:13,22 134:24 industry's

68:22 infer 100:14 inference 73:7 inferring 79:12 influence 81:7

85:15 126:14 influx 121:1 inform 95:10

95:16 informal 32:15

106:17 information

33:18 34:3 71:25 72:8 87:4 133:1,7 136:4 138:10 141:20 initial 7:20

10:13 15:9 24:16 59:3 93:16 94:25 104:9 106:4 106:11 108:24 initially 18:13

81:16 123:13 initiate21:8 initiating

93:12 input41:11,15 insist64:3 installers 9:3 instruction 94:19 instrumental

32:8 intact85:14 integrated

129:5 intend 104:19 intent27:9

54:13 70:1 intention

41:22 interaction

30:11 77:5,9 77:18 79:9 interactive

80:24 interest 13:11

13:12 52:13 63:23,24 108:17 117:4 121:2,12 126:3 128:3 131:16 interested

10:18 13:2 31:22 49:16 70:20 112:12 143:11 interesting

36:15 38:5 59:8 Interests

123:5 interim 83:12 interlocking

76:11 internally39:5

137:24 interpret 18:4 interpreted

44:3 interpreting

63:6 interrupt50:21 interviews

109:14 110:7 110:10 introduced

100:8 introductions

2:7 intuitively41:9 investigating

126:19 investment

126:18 invite 141:19 invited 77:23 invites 141:15

141:16 involved8:11

13:20 32:14 32:24 46:6 46:12 77:13 99:18 127:10 128:13 135:23 involvement

99:14 ironically

124:22 island 61:13 issuance

74:14 issue21:9

22:11 30:17 43:1 44:2 45:8,9,10 47:17 69:12 75:11 78:16 82:8 90:9 95:4 100:1 112:12 118:7 132:6,8,16 132:24 133:21,24 138:4

## Meeting June 17, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 16 issued 8:1

72:3 74:17 issues 11:16

23:1 31:1 39:25 43:10 43:15 48:17 49:9 50:2 52:3 53:25 57:10,10 60:24 62:24 64:4 75:23 78:8 81:10 83:5 84:4,5 85:19 87:16 87:17 88:23 89:2 90:1,4 91:10 92:12 95:2,6 97:19 99:23 100:3 129:15 130:4 131:6,17,21 133:18 134:7 134:10 135:16 137:24 issuing 92:9 it’s 93:7

111:15 item 6:15 24:7

33:12 56:22 128:6 134:18 140:8 items 79:18

112:1,3 124:6 iteration 8:22

14:8 21:12 21:16 iterations

14:10 27:10 67:6 J J 1:18 Jakobs 1:15 2:13,13 6:23 16:16 20:15 22:14 23:11 23:23 24:9 25:15 26:7 26:24 27:20 27:20 28:18 28:20 32:2,2 33:15,15 34:11 36:14 38:5,18,23 39:11 42:22 43:7 44:1 46:1,4,16,25 48:8 50:9,23 52:4 55:2,7 56:5,6,10 60:14 61:12 63:8,25 64:14,22 67:20 72:24 73:1 76:6,6 89:13,13 96:2,2 100:3 106:16 107:8 107:14,19,23 109:11 112:24 113:2 113:18,23 114:1,10,16 114:20,24 115:3,6 116:9 129:19 129:19 130:24 135:21 jams50:7 January 19:20

21:8 24:14 24:15 126:6 Jen 2:18 11:11

57:3,4 59:7 60:12 65:8 66:1 73:21 87:18 108:12 109:11 130:24,25 131:1 Jen's 52:7

84:12 Jennifer 1:8

124:18 Jeremiah

141:11 Jesus 41:12 job33:1 66:11 142:18 John 1:7,9,17

2:17 3:6 6:19 25:6,7 34:9 36:1 41:1 46:5 69:4 76:13 82:14 82:15 96:19 98:20 101:14 101:17 102:16 107:8 111:13 115:12 116:1 120:25 123:8 124:13,14 128:23 129:24 136:22 137:9 138:3 John's 101:10

105:2 129:11 137:13 join 141:8 joined 116:16 joint9:18 July72:3

82:23 83:22 83:23 98:25 103:4 113:14 113:14 114:5 114:6 116:19 120:6 121:9 124:19 128:16,18 130:1 137:15 140:11 jump 137:10 June 1:2 82:23

101:23 103:4 143:12 K Karen 6:24 Karen's

112:25 Karim 1:4 7:2

29:11,25 30:16 32:3 66:24 67:2 67:22 68:10 69:21,23 74:23 77:21 92:15 95:20 101:14 Karim's 103:8 keep 52:23

72:23 108:6 109:25 120:1 124:3 130:3 130:8 138:14 keeping 10:19 Kelley 1:16

2:14 11:11 46:21,22 84:9 85:21 94:1,24 96:20 109:24 130:25 132:14 key 14:1 33:9

53:25 81:10 100:23 kicked 23:20 kids 127:21 kind 16:24 28:2,25 35:8 35:20 37:14 49:24 54:9 64:7 81:13 85:10,24 86:1,10 94:2 94:21,24 98:18 103:23 104:23 105:2 106:2 107:4 119:24 127:25 133:25 135:10 138:19,21 142:9 kinds 38:7

44:14 133:14 Kline 1:16 2:14

2:14 28:9 29:4 46:22 48:5 49:2,24 50:21,24 84:9,9 85:20 85:21 94:1,1 109:24 knew 136:13 know3:10

7:16 9:12 11:8 12:4,13 12:25 13:12 13:20,25 14:15,21 15:19 16:12 16:23 17:11 18:12,17,20 19:1,2 20:9 21:5,15,21 25:19 26:15 26:15 27:2 28:22,23,24 29:14,18,19 30:4,24 31:9 31:13,19,20

## Meeting June 17, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 17 32:13,13 34:5,7,21 35:8,22,23 36:4,18,24 36:25 38:22 40:11,12,25 41:4,6,9,12 42:4,14,16 42:20 43:3,6 43:8 44:2,9,9 45:7,15 46:15 49:13 49:13,17 50:7 51:6,18 51:20,21,22 51:23 52:5,7 52:15,19,21 53:6,8,12 57:22,25 58:7,18,20 58:21 62:10 64:2,8,9,23 65:10,19 68:20 69:5 70:1,24 71:7 71:10,13,24 72:15 73:13 74:12 75:22 75:25 76:11 76:15,19 77:1,2,8,11 77:18 78:2 79:1,2,12,16 79:22,25 80:6 81:20 81:21,22 83:3 84:2 85:7 86:2,4,9 86:22 88:14 88:24 89:1 89:10,19,21 89:22,24 90:8,24 92:21 93:21 94:3 95:23 96:7,10,10 96:11,15,17 97:1,2,3,4,4 97:5,13,16 98:7 99:25 100:1,5,6,23 100:25 101:2 101:23,24 103:14,17,23 104:1,2,5,10 104:17,19 105:4,4 108:12,13 109:16,19,20 111:6,10,22 112:5 117:2 117:4 122:2 122:6,6,9,20 124:3,7 125:20,21 127:10,17 128:6,23 130:4,22 131:5,24 132:20,25 133:11,19,21 134:7,10,20 134:23 135:7 135:8,14 136:3,4,5,7 136:16,16,18 136:25 137:6 138:2,3,4,5,7 138:17,19,21 138:25 139:22 140:3 142:5 knowing 26:4

73:25 108:9 139:9,18 known 89:6 knows 76:3 Kylie 1:25 143:3,17 L L.A45:14 lab 91:8 96:3

105:15 134:3 labs 134:1 laid 62:22

138:23 lamp 127:2,16 landing 114:11 language

51:11 large7:23

16:12 25:1,2 31:10 85:13 127:22 larger27:23

27:23,23,24 28:4 49:9 70:14 78:8 142:6 late21:18 44:8

44:9 96:23 116:17 latitude 10:2 laugh 79:7 laughing

26:22 Laughter

107:2 laundry 106:9 lawyers 93:4 lay 139:19 laying 139:13 lead 10:4,5

18:14 25:19 27:16 95:7 139:17 leads 142:19 leap 100:13 leave4:15

62:17 111:6 111:8 127:21 leaving 6:2 Lebo 1:17 led 14:9 15:22

16:21 left26:11 legal-wise

138:13 Lennox4:2 7:4

66:16,21,25 68:1 69:6,9 77:20 85:4 Lennox's 68:4 let's 3:16 6:15

21:19 57:2 69:1,2 72:23 73:18 78:19 105:21 108:22,23 110:17,23 111:7,18 112:3,4 113:25 120:6 letter66:25

68:1,4 letters 66:20

66:21 level 10:8,9

13:21,21 17:5 24:20 41:15 47:7 63:18 94:13 137:2,6,10 138:6 levels8:19

10:19 14:15 19:15 35:22 40:16 42:4 54:1 70:10 74:11 75:10 81:8 83:6 84:7 87:9 91:14 lies23:6 lifetimes 58:12 light66:13 73:7 lighting 127:2

127:2,11 lights 127:21 limited 35:1

39:1 79:25 89:4 111:25 limits47:15 line3:2 34:18

34:21 52:12 100:9 lines 99:25

106:14 link 141:6 liquid 129:14 list 132:16

134:6,18 listen 33:19 listening 49:24

54:12 55:18 little4:15 5:9

26:10 36:24 49:25 50:12 55:15 56:2 76:21,22,24 77:17 78:4 79:23 86:5 88:12,17 90:19,20 95:12 101:24 111:3,21 115:15 133:7 135:9 live 14:12,13

14:18 54:25 90:24 load 26:4

27:25 loading 25:18

26:4 loads25:17 lock40:22 locked 24:6

## Meeting June 17, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 18 40:23 41:2,6 41:7 53:13 lockout 108:2 log 50:7 logger81:9 logical 60:9 long 32:16

39:24 88:7 115:1 134:25 long-standing

8:24 longer 16:7

37:22 58:21 101:24,24 110:17 111:3 138:19 139:15 longer-term

8:25 134:9 look3:15,16

4:21 14:22 18:24 26:17 30:20 33:13 40:10 47:12 56:11 59:25 68:19 69:10 69:13 70:22 71:4 75:16 83:1 84:3 86:24 87:3 91:14 120:1 125:10,24 129:4,25 136:24 137:18 138:4 138:12 141:23 looked 123:9 looking 7:1

14:23 29:19 31:12 58:18 58:19 73:16 79:5 84:7 94:4 117:12 117:13 123:21 125:3 129:7 130:21 132:4 136:5 136:7,16 138:2 139:3 looks 15:15

68:24 98:17 114:2 loophole23:5

27:14 55:12 loopholes

48:20 lose 114:23,23

115:16 losing 114:14 lost47:12 lot9:12 12:16

20:13 21:4 21:17 27:21 33:18,20,20 34:4,14,23 35:2,2 38:10 38:18 39:24 39:25 41:17 44:16 46:6 49:5 53:1 55:18 57:7 58:22 70:8 96:4 101:24 118:4,5 122:16,19 125:2,11,12 125:16 135:5 137:23 lots 130:5 loud 69:16 love43:3

77:11 low37:10,12 lower 10:9

37:1 126:1 lucky29:23 Lumière 127:1 lunch 4:6 66:15 101:7 106:15 108:18 110:22 M M 1:15 major6:15

25:11 63:12 91:10 92:12 95:6,15 135:1 makers 57:12

57:19,19,20 61:5,13 62:1 62:9 64:5 making 27:24

32:20 38:6 40:15 62:2 64:9 74:4 MALE5:23

106:25 114:15 115:18 116:6 118:12,15,16 118:25 119:18,22 manage

126:24 Mandyck3:6

69:4 121:1 manner48:20 manufacture

38:3 63:16 manufacturer

31:8,10 34:25 36:18 37:1,24 45:13,18 47:8 48:4 101:4 105:13 109:13 manufacture... 94:3 manufacture...

2:19 9:2 12:23 13:4 13:14 15:6 15:14 16:2 16:14,19 22:15 26:3 26:11,14,21 26:22 27:8 27:18 31:19 32:25 34:10 38:1 55:13 58:24 59:17 63:8 67:21 74:10 79:8 84:16,25 85:9,25 86:25 88:18 89:8,16 94:6 94:8,15,19 95:2 99:14 110:6,9 manufacturi...

2:20 63:24 mark 1:21

86:23 market26:22 marketing

63:23 markets 63:12

63:15,17 material 25:13 math 97:7

108:2 matter 14:22

93:8 109:5 121:7 141:2 maximizing

137:21 McCabe 1:18 McCrudden

1:19 6:21 29:24 30:22 68:9 mean 6:5

18:11 32:7 38:6,8,19,23 39:13 40:1 41:1 42:1 43:12 44:12 46:6,8 48:3 49:19 50:7 52:5,12 54:2 55:8 61:14 61:18,20 64:22 65:10 80:13,15 87:7 92:22 93:3 96:4 99:9,12,13 100:4,11,13 102:3 103:11 106:20,21 107:25 109:12 112:13 113:2 124:22 130:2 130:12 136:18 137:3 meaningful

77:25 98:1 means 12:1

40:21,22 61:22 102:12 meant23:25 measure20:3

127:8 measured

75:17,24 78:23 134:12 134:21 mechanism

43:23 mechanisms

133:5 mediation

66:10

## Meeting June 17, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 19 medium 24:25 medium-term

134:4 meet9:24

10:10 22:20 34:5 54:15 54:16,18 59:4 68:20 112:9 116:1 128:24 131:3 meeting 1:1

3:15 4:8 19:13 29:15 32:6 33:17 36:11 42:15 42:16 52:15 53:2 58:2 60:21,25 62:10 66:6 73:12,15 81:21 83:19 83:23 90:5 91:24 92:6 97:17 104:22 105:4,6,6,14 106:4,18 108:24 110:25 116:18 117:13,21 118:3 123:10 124:18,21 128:18 130:1 131:5 132:15 135:13 137:15,19 140:11 141:21 meetings 7:2

14:3 19:10 29:18 40:5,9 42:3,23 55:25 60:24 64:10 73:9 77:23 78:6 80:3 93:16 93:17 113:13 meets 114:3

114:22 members 1:1

13:10 31:17 41:8 58:23 65:14 104:23 112:22 120:20 122:14 126:22 128:4 128:8 130:18 135:15 137:15 140:14,15 membership

116:20 120:17 122:7 123:3 memos 140:10 mention 12:25 mentioned

20:8 28:9 29:12,21 56:12 77:21 113:17 121:20 merits 73:19

73:19,20,23 73:23 message

35:14,24 49:15 51:20 52:10 88:3 96:16,18 met42:15

101:22 metal 9:5,5,7 method 8:25

21:11,11,15 22:2 23:12 73:6 80:17 81:3,5 83:24 84:4,5,11 86:24 90:22 93:2,18 97:13,24 98:3,4 methods 8:20

24:11 89:17 99:19 130:20 metric5:4

10:19,20,24 16:19 20:12 20:12,12,20 20:22 21:2 22:17,17,18 23:17 25:16 35:22 40:11 40:12,13 41:5 43:2,4,4 43:10 44:24 45:5 49:17 70:6 metrics 10:17

42:15 43:3 Meyers6:25 Michael 1:18

7:4,7 microphone

2:9 mid-April 8:10 mid-August

99:22 117:15 mid-July98:23

121:9 mid-June

97:10 mid-nineties

15:10 middle 116:5

117:22 119:6 Miller 1:20

2:22,22 26:9 26:9 27:19 32:12,13 37:21,21 38:16,19 39:4 41:8 53:22 54:6 54:14,16,19 122:18 141:10,17 mind 89:24

130:3,8 minds53:2 mine 126:3 minimum

136:25 138:6 minute4:24

6:10 minutes 3:15

4:21,22,23 6:8,9,13 65:23 69:3 112:10 116:17 130:21 131:17 miscellaneo...

3:24 53:18 57:2,6,13 59:2 61:18 114:2,21 mitigate 12:17 mix-matched

100:9 mode78:17

92:19 models 100:12 modest 15:12

19:21 modifications

74:13 modus32:20 moment

140:24 Monday3:21

7:12 19:13 45:11,16 51:14,16,17 51:20 53:3 54:22 115:22 123:11 money 127:23 monitoring

125:15 126:23 month 35:15

36:10 58:2 58:16 72:22 83:4,13,18 84:1 85:5 87:13 90:6 92:6 93:17 98:2 99:22 100:11 102:17,18 116:5 119:6 months7:21

8:14 19:11 29:14 32:5 42:17,19 52:17,19 55:23 58:17 59:2 66:1 83:6,8,11 91:3,5,7 97:10 98:3 100:19 101:1 103:25 104:18 105:19 119:21 122:18 morning 3:8

51:20 111:2 132:9 motion 4:23

6:12 33:4 54:8,10 motor25:23

36:15 127:4 129:8,13

## Meeting June 17, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 20 motorcycle

115:3,4,5 move5:2,24

6:15 11:25 12:5 39:1 44:21 46:11 46:15 53:10 66:12 68:4 70:21 71:15 80:5 81:2,7 83:14 87:13 87:21,21 93:22 103:19 103:22 104:5 115:9 127:7 132:16 moved 75:7

123:11 Movement

37:4 moves75:1 moving 10:20

26:12 30:25 33:12 38:15 41:22 56:1,1 76:14 104:8 128:22 129:13 MREF75:20 MREFs75:6

75:15,23 multiple36:20

44:10,15 multiple-day

52:2 multitude58:8 mute33:9 mutually 140:5 N N 1:3 2:1 nailed 40:11 name 138:14 narrowed 61:5 61:10 narrowly

45:24 NASEO9:14 national 2:22

16:12 natural 80:20 nature58:13

70:14 105:21 135:1 near 129:3 nearly88:7 necessarily

78:22 89:20 130:13 140:1 necessary

53:11 62:16 80:22 necessitate

61:9 need 4:19 6:8

17:23 25:12 34:8 36:9 42:5 44:21 45:7,16,19 45:21 48:25 49:7 52:6 53:5 54:8 55:15,21,22 58:4,10,14 61:6,11 64:19 69:10 73:8 80:8 85:17 87:1,1 92:12 94:18 95:11,13,13 95:14,14,21 96:12,14,17 98:4 99:22 100:19 103:22 105:14,14 112:1,18,21 113:15,21 115:19 117:8 117:23 120:17 121:4 130:3,14 132:14 133:7 136:3 137:2 138:24 139:1 139:20,22 141:22 needed 9:23

37:23 103:19 131:8,12 137:11 needing 58:16

85:1 132:25 133:2 needs 9:25

10:10 45:6 48:19 50:4,5 51:25 56:2 58:22 60:7 64:18 70:16 73:17 86:11 111:9 132:22 133:3,16 139:23 141:22 negative60:2 negotiate

14:15 19:15 41:13 57:18 67:4 73:25 74:7 95:25 104:18 105:21 106:25 negotiated 8:7

11:13 23:25 24:5 32:15 45:24 67:19 70:16,19 71:16 76:18 77:15 78:24 85:24 96:5 101:18 102:4 negotiating

11:10 31:2 44:10 58:2 75:8 77:3 79:22 negotiation

11:22 14:14 16:8 40:21 57:6 71:3 74:9,20,25 75:14 94:17 94:21 95:14 95:24 96:13 105:17 negotiations

11:4,9 50:17 102:8 103:14 Neither 121:24 NEMA2:17

25:7 34:9 36:1 76:13 124:14 net 15:3 never41:18

43:4 64:11 82:19 new3:25 9:18

10:20 14:7 18:8 19:19 19:23 20:12 23:16 25:20 28:17 34:3 41:18 43:4 52:15 66:19 78:18,25 84:17 87:11 90:11 92:20 100:8 113:9 120:20 nice66:11 Nine 122:18 no-brainer

137:1 NODA44:2 nodding 73:4

118:4 nomination

121:8,9 141:3,5 nominations

19:7,8 73:11 93:14 142:8 non-compre...

61:7 NOPR24:15

24:17,19 74:14,17 80:5 82:22 87:23 91:20 93:19 98:10 101:21 102:17,18,18 102:25 105:20,24 133:14 NOPRs 132:8 normal 17:11

62:18 102:14 102:16 normally31:5

102:7 111:16 northwest

2:15 139:25 note3:8 57:23

138:22 noted 13:8

18:12 121:8 notes4:22 6:5

111:19,23,23 112:15 124:22 125:6 125:9 nothing's40:6 notice 17:7

83:19 120:18 noticed 120:19 November

## Meeting June 17, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 21 84:6 91:16 107:1 NREF88:25

118:19 NREFs 87:17 number 14:22

14:22 15:2 16:20 17:10 19:18 23:22 24:7,11 37:15 38:12 41:20 56:11 57:8 62:13 86:1 131:5 numbers

31:14 32:8 60:9 87:10 O O2:1 Obama's

107:10 object6:13

116:24 objection

119:20 objections

5:22 110:15 obligation

43:19 observations

7:15 obtaining

133:12 obvious59:18 obviously

31:16 70:21 71:7 72:14 occupancy

127:3,19,22 occur25:12 occurred

16:25 131:21 occurring 77:10 occurs 31:5 October84:6

91:2,16,23 92:8 93:16 97:18,21 odd 5:1 OEMs55:10 office 114:12

141:11 Officials 2:23 oftentimes

127:8 OGC 134:14

137:25 Oh 20:1 97:2

107:19 108:15 115:25 121:13 123:23 oil 19:22 okay3:13 4:20

5:21 6:13 22:14 24:9 26:8,8,24 27:19 39:15 39:18 43:24 55:7 56:10 57:4 63:10 69:19 72:10 73:4 97:6 105:23 107:5 107:19 110:16 111:18 112:11 113:1 113:5,8,9 114:1 116:12 117:12,17 118:20 119:20,23 120:3,15 121:23 123:5 123:13,16 124:14 128:19 131:19 138:15 142:20 old 98:12

126:12 older85:13 once22:6 93:7

95:5 104:21 125:7 127:10 128:23 135:18 one's 33:10

42:11 63:14 118:23,23 one-day 105:6

105:6 one-month

86:8 87:14 ones20:7 28:5

31:18 38:2 38:20 135:3 135:19 open 9:23 29:8

54:12 89:10 117:11 140:15,16,18 open-ended

82:8 87:25 opened 11:2 opening 11:21

11:21 80:7 operandi

32:21 operation

126:25 operationalize

23:2 opinion 17:16

22:23 35:11 42:2 63:2 89:5 138:1 opportunities 65:14,16 125:2,5,12 125:18 opportunity

7:25 8:23 12:3 111:11 121:6 opposed 33:5

40:3 42:17 48:1 54:10 54:25 99:10 128:11 129:16 opposite

41:21 96:20 optimized 26:3 option 37:9

62:7 67:14 90:25 optional 66:7 options62:11

62:12 orally 112:15 order25:12

36:11 95:2,9 95:16 98:24 109:6 131:13 orders 31:14 organically

16:24 organization

6:24 9:3 46:13 68:2 organizational

60:8 organizations

4:4 6:20 9:8 9:9 46:6 76:14 organize

139:23 originally

42:13 61:8 ought74:22 outcome 14:1

26:17 30:4 74:19 outcomes

9:24 78:20 outline 131:18 outlined 23:14

94:6 127:6 128:1 outreach 68:2

68:3 outset20:8 outside29:15

128:12 130:17 134:12 outstanding

93:18 overall 7:15

39:9 125:19 126:2 127:9 overlap92:5 overlapping

110:3 owners 126:7 P P 1:3,3 2:1 p.m 114:22

116:13,19,23 116:24 118:21 Pacific 116:19 package 39:14

49:11,20 56:13 73:12 122:14 141:3 packaged 20:4 packet7:11 page4:25

86:11 parallel 74:21

133:4

## Meeting June 17, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 22 139:1 parent42:14

43:18 66:3 93:24 parroting

131:25 part7:11 8:2,5

16:4 18:18 26:4,4 27:7 29:2,6 32:11 33:21 42:2 43:1 47:2 51:24 58:1 59:10 61:8,8 61:19 64:24 70:16 71:12 74:25 75:14 80:10 85:10 86:16 87:6,8 96:13,13 100:23 104:12 121:5 129:5 131:11 132:24 136:10 141:7 141:21 partial 25:17

25:18 participant

117:9 participants

2:24 7:1 29:10 participants'

9:25 participate

89:15 115:4 121:6 128:4 participated

29:7 33:16 33:16 77:24 96:4 136:21 participating

27:3 78:5 112:24 participation

142:22 particular

10:18 27:7 27:15 45:6 89:14 99:15 132:2 particularly

12:14 92:23 139:23 parties29:17

67:14 70:20 89:2 140:6 143:8 parties' 143:9 partly53:7 parts26:19 pass 138:10

140:3 path 16:5 36:8

36:10 pathways 9:24 pay96:16

126:17 penciled

123:10 people4:17,21

6:10 13:20 17:3 19:2 20:11 21:15 21:20 26:21 29:21 30:2 32:6,8,13 33:19,23,24 34:3 39:22 40:18,19 41:11,17,20 42:23,24 43:1,8 46:14 46:25 47:13 52:13 59:11 59:16,17,20 59:22 60:6 63:2 64:9 73:13 80:14 81:4 89:20 90:1,8,21 96:11,15 97:23 99:5 99:18 101:7 102:3 107:3 111:14 115:14 120:18,21,22 120:23,24 121:6 122:11 124:16,17 126:8 127:17 128:24 130:21 135:9 140:19 percent 15:12

15:14 19:20 19:22,23 24:22,23,24 24:25 25:1 31:17 38:13 46:2 65:7 76:23 115:11 127:18 percentage

20:2 25:16 performance

10:22 26:3 period 14:20

16:7 52:2 80:18,18 87:14 92:3,8 92:16 93:2,4 97:6 99:11 102:4 103:3 108:3 121:9 136:13 person 19:11

33:17 113:5 113:16 118:3 118:5 119:6 119:22,23 personalities

46:11 personally

40:24 95:17 persons 13:2 perspective

36:2 71:10 71:17 77:23 83:1,11 85:17 94:3 101:12 123:12 125:2 125:25 128:7 128:10 130:3 phase24:24 phone68:7

69:4,19 100:18 113:14,17 115:1 116:18 116:18 117:23 118:1 118:8 pick 104:23

105:1 112:18 113:25 piece 6:13

22:7 36:23 84:11,23 85:23,24 110:3 133:5 pieces 129:11

129:17 pike 139:10 pile 122:22

131:10 pitched 47:19 place 73:3

85:1 102:13 placed 134:5,8

135:3 plan 36:12

79:23 86:1 98:15 103:12 104:12,14 105:5 107:10 128:16 140:12 planned

123:13 131:18 140:13 planning 70:4

76:3 plans 70:17 plants 15:2 plate57:17 platform 100:8 play50:24 players27:2

63:12 please 138:14

141:13 pleased 110:6 plenty68:17

68:19 99:7 plus 108:7 point 14:11

15:25 17:9 20:2 23:24 34:15 35:8 36:4 40:2 42:2,3,10 44:6 51:3 52:19 54:21 69:22,23 71:3,25 72:1 72:7,17 77:12,13,25 78:3 79:22 81:19 83:25 84:1 89:21 98:8 99:17 100:17 103:13 104:20 117:25 124:2

## Meeting June 17, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 23 130:15 134:14 138:5 140:22 point's41:19 points 13:3

89:20 128:15 132:21 policy 104:15

134:10 port45:14 portion 62:19

80:1 posed 9:21

10:25 position 51:5

71:1 75:10 78:13 positive30:4

59:22 possibilities

11:22 12:16 possibility

59:3 61:25 possible58:9

59:9 92:23 102:11 138:13 possibly 17:12

62:7 84:1 post 102:18 postmortems

30:1 potential 7:24

15:25 16:10 48:13 57:17 62:24 66:19 85:1 102:1 127:6 128:1 potentially

13:18 34:17 51:23 88:23 125:20 pounds62:3,4 Power2:15 practice 140:16 predetermin...

36:12,13 prefer76:9 preferred

106:19 preliminary

58:12 premature

81:19 preparation

124:21 prepare

137:14 preparing

94:12 present 15:3

30:18 65:15 presentation

34:1 presentations

40:3 presented

76:25 136:1 President

107:10 pressure

100:24 presume

122:1 pretty8:9

13:11 19:6 25:13 26:13 44:21 51:10 56:17 57:1 64:3 65:2 66:13 78:6 78:12 80:4 100:21 115:16,16 125:3 127:15 127:22 preventing 27:14 previous

99:19 primarily77:8 prior 133:14

135:12 138:22 priorities

131:10 132:10 134:18 prioritize

64:21 131:13 131:15 132:5 prioritized

131:20 priority7:23

7:24 132:16 134:5 private 141:4

141:22 privately 11:12 probably2:9

6:6 16:25 35:24 36:24 41:8 44:20 45:21 88:24 91:5 93:17 95:24 96:15 97:17 105:1 120:19 121:9 133:24 136:14 137:18 problem 5:11

21:3 135:24 problematic

82:8 problems 5:16

26:16 27:24 28:4 75:5 104:3 129:4 133:11 procedure 23:17 57:10 69:12,13,24 70:2,5,9,12 70:15,16,17 72:4,21 73:3 74:1,13,22 74:24 75:6 75:13,16,19 75:23 76:9 76:17 77:14 78:11 80:1,7 83:4,12 84:13,17,18 84:22 85:5 85:22 86:16 87:11,22 88:1,9,13,22 89:2,14 90:7 91:3,8,11,16 91:19 92:17 94:10,16 95:3,6,8,16 95:24 98:9 100:22 101:3 102:1 104:5 106:11 110:2 110:3 131:6 131:9 133:13 133:18,20,23 134:11,19,23 138:24 139:4 142:15 procedure's

87:20 procedures

20:7 35:7 41:16 48:13 49:18 57:18 69:25 74:16 76:20 77:7 77:22 82:11 99:7,10 132:8 proceed 75:2 132:17 proceedings

143:5 process 7:15

9:20 11:10 11:18 12:9 12:19 14:2 15:16 31:3 32:15 34:16 41:11 43:19 43:20 46:20 62:19 73:10 74:2,12,19 74:21 76:18 77:3,15,19 79:19,24 88:2 96:13 97:9,9,15 98:6 102:14 102:16,20 103:15 121:5 121:8 131:22 132:7 133:6 134:1 136:11 138:25 140:23 141:2 processes

96:25 produce25:14

26:12 31:19 product 15:23

31:19,24 33:21 37:18 37:19 51:7 56:15,19,20 58:5,6 60:23 61:3,18 77:4 78:11 84:15 94:15 129:5 137:2,5 140:4,5 production

15:1 109:12 109:13

## Meeting June 17, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 24 Productive

142:22 products 13:5

13:14 15:7 17:19 27:17 28:15 33:23 33:25 44:16 44:16 55:11 57:13 58:24 70:13 74:12 76:7 78:14 84:18,20 85:13,15 86:3 92:24 108:13 109:14 114:8 130:5 program 4:10

4:10 28:23 130:11,16,17 programs

89:18 progress 6:17

15:6 34:4 35:6,12,19 40:9 41:2 42:19,20 46:8 49:13 51:24,25 52:25 53:2 53:24 54:20 54:22 55:21 55:25 86:17 138:5 progressing

25:21 project2:12

60:5,10 64:18 82:8 projected 26:5 projects82:10 promising

56:4 properly49:1 proposal 13:23 51:13 89:10 90:11 90:18 93:12 96:22 proposals

60:25 propose76:4

135:17 proposed 7:22

7:25 10:4 12:2 18:1 28:21 41:23 43:2,10 55:3 65:17 66:6 70:18 72:3 73:2 74:14 74:20 79:3 79:24 80:2,9 80:16 87:16 89:9 90:22 132:14 proposing

90:13 proprietary

56:15,18 provide4:9

18:24 21:12 44:19 48:20 78:6 126:14 137:9 138:1 provided 14:9

14:14 provides

15:14 16:6 18:21 21:23 providing

34:14 132:10 133:1 136:21 provision 18:1

18:19,24 provisions

13:1 49:17 49:18 78:17 78:17 provison

17:25 public 99:11

103:12 111:9 112:12 117:9 141:7,7 publication

18:5 publicly78:15 publish 12:2

21:11 72:13 105:20,24 published

7:22 72:2,11 72:12 80:17 93:7 102:17 103:11 104:16 pull 56:17 pulls24:15,16 pump 129:7,7

129:9 pumps20:5

25:3 66:18 88:6 100:10 112:20 127:4 129:3 punchline

49:14 purposely

46:7 pursue 131:14

135:19 purview

128:11 push 49:9

97:18,20 109:6 111:7 pushed 15:24

41:17 pushing 61:5

95:1 124:4 put 14:23,25 25:24 52:17 55:13 64:5 64:25 70:17 70:23 71:2 78:10 79:23 82:10,12,15 83:19 99:18 101:21 109:8 111:14 117:22 119:1 120:18 123:14 124:21 125:18 135:10 puts 115:15 putting 17:14

34:22 41:9 48:1 73:20 127:22 puzzled 77:17 Q quad 125:23 quads 14:19 quality 109:5

110:12 122:20 quantify

127:23 question 10:6

10:11,15,16 10:23 12:11 23:11 24:1 25:8 26:1,10 26:10,18 30:23 31:25 34:13 38:19 49:14 50:25 51:5 55:2 60:14 61:12 63:4,5,6 67:17 72:24 75:4,18 103:8 111:12 111:14 126:13 questions

8:19 9:22 10:1 11:1 17:4 24:10 28:8 33:4 34:8 37:24 40:1,3 46:3 60:12 65:25 73:20 128:20 129:24 131:23 133:21 135:4 137:20 138:23 quick72:24

112:4 quicker 134:22 quickly8:9

21:6 26:13 80:4 89:4 103:20,22 104:5 quite27:14

62:22 70:12 78:5 82:6 quorum 3:13

115:10,10,17 R R 1:3 2:1 race 123:2 radical 127:15 raised 21:17

75:21 90:4 100:4 133:21 137:24 138:2 138:4 raising 78:7

84:25 131:9 ramifications

59:13

## Meeting June 17, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 25 range39:19

86:5 127:1 rated 34:17 rating 70:5

78:13 89:17 ratings22:5

87:2 100:10 rational 75:2 rationale

86:20 reach 29:13

42:9 67:14 81:12 86:21 reached 19:14 reaching

81:19 react84:17

92:22 97:25 reaction 36:2 read 4:22 23:9

23:24 94:23 100:16,21 131:17 reading 6:10 ready6:9 58:1

71:15,22 94:17,20 99:20,21,23 106:5 108:18 112:16 reaffirm 17:12 real 8:11 20:22

34:1 49:13 49:16 50:18 51:24 54:23 realistic 85:8 realistically

73:17 82:25 85:9 realizing 72:20 really 11:2

15:7 18:25 27:21 29:21 29:22 31:18 32:4,21 34:13 40:6 40:14 41:14 41:16 42:6 43:22 50:2 51:21 52:12 53:6,22 56:24 59:19 60:11 61:4 61:10,11 84:18 85:12 85:14,15 87:17 89:4 90:8 92:10 92:18,24 97:2 110:6 128:3,6,7 131:12 133:9 136:5,7 reap 126:17 reapply 121:4

121:21 122:6 reason 31:21

52:22 58:21 99:3 102:2 103:19 104:1 104:4,5,6 122:11 132:23 reasonable

60:9,10 80:8 84:8 85:18 85:25 88:15 reasoning

65:12,13 reasons 27:10

59:11 61:6 recall 19:24 recalls 131:17 receipt 13:1 receive96:16 received 58:11 recess 110:22 recognization 34:22 recognize 7:17

21:6 32:1 54:23 74:15 94:18 130:14 recognized

7:18 21:3 recognizing

8:20 82:23 recommend

57:11 recommend...

19:18 21:7 22:10 23:10 27:6 43:13 44:25 45:3 45:23 48:12 57:25 61:16 62:13,14 105:18 110:14 133:9 133:25 140:11 recommend...

9:18 13:6 20:6 24:11 62:16 74:4 77:1 recommended

46:12 66:20 reconvene

110:21 record 12:14

109:9 112:12 143:6 records 51:25

52:1 redesign

15:22 redesigns

15:22 redo 124:3 reduce 125:12

125:13 redundant6:4 6:6 reference

134:25 references

68:2 referencing

28:18 referred 87:18 referring

124:24 refine 128:6 reflect58:10 reflected

44:24 reflects 122:21 refrig 114:3 refrigerants

16:1 28:10 28:14,17 refrigeration

3:24 53:18 56:6 57:2,6 57:13 59:2 61:18 63:12 114:22 refrigerator

50:10,13,14 58:8 124:25 126:10 refrigerators

61:7 88:7 reg-neg 12:11

43:20,24 68:5,12 72:14 73:21 110:12 regard 69:10

79:14 138:18 regards 52:6,9

78:1 regional 30:7

30:8 67:11 78:21 85:11 85:11 109:18 regrets 3:7 regular 17:24

18:1 41:11 regulate 130:7 regulated

33:24,25 42:24,25,25 43:8 47:1,7 47:11,14 49:3 51:2,7 61:14 62:1 67:7 130:6 regulating

50:13 70:6 129:16 regulation

23:6 45:1,17 56:23 107:11 107:16 129:7 regulations

21:20 28:21 76:20 107:9 regulatory

16:2 31:4,13 41:11 43:21 72:1,2,10 82:2,23 102:24 103:9 104:16 139:14,16,17 reinforce 98:8 related 22:10

90:4 131:6 relates 43:14

74:18 relative77:15

128:14 143:7 143:9 relatively27:2

71:19 134:6 released 98:13 relevant 13:3 relied 99:13

## Meeting June 17, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 26 relooking

138:8 reluctance

136:8 remain 58:15 remaining

133:18 remember

31:14 37:25 59:1 89:21 100:7 remind 131:4 removal 60:4 removes57:16

57:17 rep33:14

53:20 113:7 repeatable

136:17 replacing

126:7,9,15 report6:17

81:17,20,22 83:3,12 84:4 93:24 106:18 118:19 128:17 129:25 131:2 Reporter

143:1,4 reporting

113:18,19 reports39:24

110:24 112:4 represent

20:13 38:1,2 87:11 representati...

9:10,12 63:13,22,22 representati...

23:18 representative

9:1,3 11:13 12:21 13:3 29:9 86:2 139:24 140:1 representati...

6:20 9:2,8,13 13:4 69:20 represented

7:4 13:13,15 13:16 63:21 representing

9:15 13:11 27:4 31:16 33:23 69:9 represents

13:15 38:1 request3:25

54:4 55:9,9 66:15,25 102:21 105:20,22 requesting

67:3 69:10 requests

136:4 required 109:7

126:6 requirement

10:25 103:2 requirements

34:1 43:22 102:24 requires 78:22

122:25 reserve 123:22 residential

63:17 66:17 67:5 112:19 resolution

31:1 36:12 86:21 resolve80:4

87:20 91:11 93:17 resources 71:20 respect 13:7

70:2 respects

122:25 respond 136:6 response24:3

26:20 55:14 107:9 responses

12:7 92:13 responsibility

17:10 79:5 rest63:1

135:12 137:14 141:8 141:8 restarted

110:23 restricted 55:4 result31:23

54:7 77:4 110:12 resulting

23:17 results25:14

98:18 retrofit28:1 review2:10

17:12,21,24 18:1,13 85:11 135:12 139:19 reviewed

139:5 reviewing

17:10 revise22:17

71:9 87:5 revised 14:17

21:11 22:2 23:17 58:10 84:18 92:18 revision 17:20 17:21,22 18:7,14 58:4 69:25 138:25 revisions

21:18 81:6 134:20 Rheem 2:13

6:25 13:15 27:20 32:2 33:15 36:17 47:18 73:1 76:6 89:13 96:2,5 113:4 right6:12

12:20 17:20 18:9,11 20:18 22:5 26:7 32:10 33:2,11 35:3 37:12 39:11 40:14,19 41:21 43:19 46:3 51:7 52:5 54:4,13 54:19 55:6 55:12 58:17 61:22 62:2 73:18 75:5 76:19 93:10 94:9,13 96:19,23 97:20 98:10 99:2 102:22 103:7 104:23 104:25 106:9 106:22,23 107:15,21 108:2,4,10 108:23 116:8 122:7 123:1 123:4,15,18 124:1,6 129:17,17 130:6 133:12 135:23 137:16,16 138:7 139:12 140:9 141:18 142:21 rightly45:2 righty 141:1 ripe68:11 risk59:19 road 21:16 roadblocks

50:8 132:2 133:8,10,13 rock27:13 roller52:11 roof28:1,2 rooftop3:20

8:3 22:16 27:25 44:13 44:14 45:17 room 19:12

30:18 53:9 60:8 63:2 64:1,16 79:7 97:14 102:4 119:24 123:21 124:3 124:5 127:20 rooms32:18

41:20 rotating

121:20 rough 24:21

128:14 roughly28:16

122:8 round 22:4

109:16 110:7 rule7:22,25

8:21 10:5 11:7,23 12:1 12:2,2,6,8,17 13:9 18:1,2,2 18:3,5,23

## Meeting June 17, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 27 19:3 41:23 41:23 62:20 65:17 67:7 67:12,19 70:15,18 71:16 72:3,9 74:2,13,20 77:16 78:8 79:3,24 80:2 80:5,9 81:3,6 87:22 89:7 96:11,22,23 97:1 99:8 104:12 107:17 108:15 109:13 110:1 131:23,25 132:3,7 133:6 137:3 137:4 138:18 rule's 96:23 rulemaking

8:7 12:9,15 12:19 17:23 20:10 21:8 31:3 35:2 41:16 57:20 61:19 62:18 67:5 68:11 70:16,19 75:22 76:18 77:3,15 78:21,24 82:11 85:19 96:5 102:5 102:14 103:17 104:16 132:12,15,18 133:14 134:12 rulemakings

14:21 20:24 20:25 32:15 32:21 67:9 76:7 101:18 109:10 135:22 136:14 rules21:16

55:6 105:10 109:6 running 27:23

28:4 83:1 rush 103:8 Rusty 100:17

100:17 S S 1:3,25 2:1

143:3,17 safer 136:9 sales 44:19 sat79:16 satisfied 14:13

92:3 save 14:19

127:18,22 savings7:23

7:25 16:12 24:22 47:11 65:14,21 126:1,17 127:12 savior46:20 saw 11:6,17

65:21 132:6 132:13 saying25:9

26:2 38:2 49:2 53:23 73:2 74:24 98:23 101:2 102:17 105:23 106:19 107:11 126:25 says 13:1

18:20 23:13 23:16 40:10 43:24 44:23 scars 30:3 scenario 55:23

94:20 106:23 scenarios

59:10 schedule

36:13 58:19 65:24 66:5 71:11,14 72:2,12,15 72:16 85:18 90:12 93:12 102:5 104:15 104:22 112:2 113:13 119:20 132:12 139:14 scheduled

72:10 96:3 124:19 139:4 schedules

121:18 138:17 scheduling

70:21 119:24 142:1 scope34:24

35:5,21 36:4 36:6 39:6,6 39:13,13,15 40:11 41:2,2 43:15 46:23 48:13 49:7 49:18 54:1 59:19 60:4 61:5,17 62:2 62:8 71:12 71:14 72:19 82:3,11 105:5 130:17 scoping 84:5 Scott3:8

115:12 121:1 screen 122:15 second 6:15

10:15 15:13 15:24 18:18 20:5 24:18 24:23,24 29:3 30:5 40:12 50:22 50:25 105:17 109:2,3 secondary

96:7 Seconded

6:13 secret 136:19 secretary 13:6

57:11 62:14 62:15,16 122:13 sections 28:10 see5:6 6:9

20:24,25 24:8 30:14 31:2 32:22 35:12 43:20 47:14 50:14 51:3 53:14 53:24 54:1 55:11,21,22 56:3 60:6,11 64:9 71:15 74:21 75:2 75:17 78:19 80:1,9 84:2 85:1 86:22 88:13,21 94:8 95:17 95:17 99:3 104:5 110:9 110:11 111:15 118:4 118:4 124:12 128:2,4 133:12,13 135:2 141:6 seeing 49:16

54:22 55:25 73:7 100:1 seek 135:17

136:20 seen 11:11

58:15 79:3 106:9 SEER 37:16

100:6,7,7,7 sees 133:8 selections

37:8 sell 31:24

45:12,13 47:20 85:13 selling 31:18

31:20 send 35:14,24

47:22 49:15 52:11 88:3 137:8 141:11 141:19 sense 8:22

40:22 50:8 54:9 70:8 75:15 76:16 80:13 84:14 84:19 86:8 89:16 95:7 133:15 142:15 sensitive

84:13 sensor 127:19

127:22 sensors 127:3 sent3:6,8,14

## Meeting June 17, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 28 138:22 sentence5:9

97:6 sentences

45:25 separate 33:22

76:12 141:23 separately

61:10 September

81:22 84:4 88:12 97:18 98:1,6 117:22 118:4 119:6,9 120:8 September's

124:4 sequence

21:21 105:12 sequencing

80:16 132:8 serve 117:6 served 6:18

7:5 8:15 session 134:3 sessions 30:2 set8:21 17:19

23:20 39:5 49:10 72:19 72:19 93:4 104:21,22,23 106:18 107:21 108:24,25 110:24 136:25 139:12 sets 55:5 setting 30:10

73:12 settled 28:25 settlement

102:4 seven 32:14 sex 123:2 share 87:4

96:8 140:20 shared 132:21 she'll 20:17 sheet3:19 7:9

7:11,14 9:5,5 9:6 12:1 17:4 19:6 23:13 23:19 24:7,8 28:7 33:4 38:24 41:25 44:12,22 45:11 46:17 48:5 49:20 57:12 78:25 93:24 101:23 103:17 109:1 sheets 117:14 Shepherd 1:25

143:3,17 shift28:16

57:2 shifting 37:14 shipments

137:2,5 shoot 119:5 short7:18,19

90:6,8,9 short-term

60:22 shortcut55:16 Shorthand

143:3 show4:18

45:13 51:24 81:6 111:23 showed 42:20 showing 21:1

64:10,22 76:24 shows 57:15 side25:4 39:6 41:21 64:6 64:25 68:22 sides 106:10 sift 122:22 significant

12:5 57:14 70:4 86:6 significantly

125:13 silence 33:7 similar61:1

71:6 102:5 129:12 similarities

55:19 Simona 1:12 simple50:25

134:6 simply67:24 simultaneous

12:2 118:7 simultaneou...

98:16 single 127:1 sit32:18 60:8 sitting 97:9 situation 32:4

40:21 situations

134:11 six 18:1 19:10

42:17,19 103:25 104:17 105:19 139:19 six-month

102:20 six-year 18:23

139:18 size27:21 28:5 skip40:4

131:18 skirting 43:21 slide 135:5 slides 111:14 slight63:22 slot37:23 slower 104:8 slowing

104:10 SMACMA9:5 small 24:24

26:11,14,22 27:2,8,18 30:24 31:7,7 31:10,17 65:14 129:10 smaller65:16

65:21 SNAP28:23 SNOPR 78:18

92:2,17 94:7 94:8,16 95:22 96:9 98:17 SNOPRs 96:18 snow38:6 sold 27:17 soliciting

73:11 120:20 solid 27:13 solution 23:4

31:1 solve8:18

21:4 solves46:24

48:6 somewhat

84:14 111:2 soon 44:21

71:19 79:24 80:12 97:24 110:11 sooner 10:9

21:22 72:20 73:17 93:23 97:19 105:3 106:1 107:25 108:9 soonest 108:1 sorry8:4 56:5

106:16 sort5:1 6:4,10

7:13,14 8:16 10:9 16:10 21:21 25:13 26:17 30:1 32:20 36:8 39:14 40:4 40:20 41:12 43:19,24 46:7,10 53:8 53:8 54:3 61:2 68:17 68:19 72:11 72:12 73:18 76:2 77:5 80:16 81:4 81:13,18 82:5,7 84:4 97:15 99:25 105:25 111:19 124:12,15 125:6,8 126:3 127:12 127:15,19 130:14 133:4 135:17 139:13 142:14 sorts38:3 sound 63:25 sounds 60:17

64:5 76:2,4 76:16 77:7 95:11 space 19:10 speak8:16

40:1,20 52:8 52:9 65:19

## Meeting June 17, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 29 69:6 84:24 113:6 SPEAKER

5:23 7:6 72:4 106:25 114:5 114:15,18 115:18 116:6 116:22 117:16,18 118:10,12,15 118:16,20,23 118:25 119:7 119:14,18,22 120:4,9,12 120:15 121:11 122:3 123:17 speaking

88:25 118:7 speaks 39:20 spec57:12 special 28:6

96:17 specific 8:19

12:8 36:18 36:25 133:9 specifically

8:16 56:19 67:17 92:18 133:16 specifies

78:25 speed 25:10 speeding

104:9 spend 97:23

105:9 spending

93:16 spent 14:3

27:14 spinning

39:23 spirit8:16 57:16 spoke 101:19 spot82:16 spots 122:3 spread 16:7

108:6 spreads

107:17 squared 76:17 stack68:18 stage29:3 stake 7:24 stakeholder

10:10 11:14 stakeholders

9:13 12:22 14:12 30:12 57:7 123:1 132:11,21,24 133:2 stall 60:23

88:2 standalone

57:12 standard 10:8

10:9,12,13 10:14,17,24 12:18 13:7 15:5 19:3,19 19:21,23 22:19,20,21 23:15 24:16 24:22 30:6 30:10 37:5 41:16 72:5 81:8 83:6 84:6 86:3 95:10 standard's

19:22 standards

2:12 8:19 9:18 10:22 14:18 15:9 19:1 23:19 23:25 24:1,2 24:5,8,12 26:12 30:8 34:17 35:7 36:22 48:14 57:19 58:3 67:10,11 73:25 74:7 74:20 75:1,2 78:21 81:20 84:23 85:11 85:12,15 91:4,17 93:23 94:13 94:17,21 95:16 109:18 130:16 134:12,25 start2:2,3,4,7

3:17 32:6 40:3 51:18 54:22 69:14 70:10 79:24 81:5 88:11 88:12 89:9 90:19,20 95:1,3 98:5 99:6 104:24 105:2,3 106:1 114:14 128:8 132:25 started 29:16

29:18 71:23 72:20 73:16 80:12 83:3 99:16 121:11 126:21 128:15 142:14 starting 33:19

51:25 52:24 54:22 71:3 88:11 91:1,1 91:2 99:2 State2:23 9:14

9:15 statement

13:2 100:20 states 12:22

13:5,12 static 100:24 status 76:5 statute 10:4

13:1 17:18 17:19 18:21 122:25 130:5 statutory

82:22 102:23 103:18,23 104:7 stay62:17

73:18 121:22 staying8:18 step 15:10,12

15:13 16:16 16:22 19:5 57:22 76:18 135:6 stepped 25:16 steps 124:12

128:1 137:16 137:17 142:16 stick 142:20 sticky87:17

88:23 stone 107:22 stood 89:2 stop68:25

101:11 109:8 stopped 50:10 stops47:8 strange26:10 strategy8:25 straw60:1 strawed 105:7 streamlined 30:25 streets 83:25

89:11 strikes 81:1

97:12 stringency

39:16,17 strong 63:2 strongly 13:8

22:16 42:6 struggling

49:25 study 139:24 stuff52:7

73:14 92:20 106:7 112:12 138:18 sub-committ...

112:6 subgroup

111:21 124:17 subgroups

4:12 112:8 subissues

131:11 subject22:19 submitted

13:2 14:7 66:21 subsequent

91:9 subsequently

44:4 substance

105:8 142:1 substantial

53:24 78:7 substantive

50:1 142:16 subway38:7 successful

19:14 64:23 sufficient83:8

## Meeting June 17, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 30 84:16 88:10 123:20 142:12 suggest 101:8

108:17 111:24 137:13 suggested

40:6 suggesting

103:24 104:1 suggestion

74:21 88:19 101:6 140:5 summarize

112:13,15 summary

140:9 summer91:21

93:13,15 summertime

97:22 supplier63:15

63:23 support9:16

57:24 67:25 72:14 74:23 76:8,16 supporting 4:4

76:14 110:2 supportive

68:4 71:16 71:18 74:6 76:23 supposed

124:2 sure4:16 5:7

8:23 15:17 29:5 31:23 35:1 42:17 46:19 52:8 53:17 54:8 54:12 67:2 72:25 79:6 84:16 86:14 86:15,21 88:24 89:25 90:17 103:21 122:22 123:21 127:9 127:11 131:2 135:4,11 136:23 137:1 141:12 surely22:8

42:10 surface 97:19 surgery3:9 sustained 15:8 switch 52:12 system 5:2,3

5:15,24,25 6:3 18:7 25:25 26:5 47:2,5,10 125:1,19 126:16,22,25 127:2,3 128:7 129:4 129:6,10 systematic

139:14 systematically

139:3 systems47:4

47:14,14 60:8 124:16 124:24 125:3 125:10,19,25 127:7 128:10 129:16,21 130:4,10 T table44:8

48:16 52:14 63:14 64:16 78:14,16 87:21 tackle 9:17 131:8 tackling 8:25

69:13 take3:15 4:20 10:13 15:25 36:23 58:21 65:24 66:2 66:15 79:4 85:7 88:6 102:7 106:6 106:7,14,21 107:4,5 108:1 112:1 112:4 113:10 134:16 taken 110:22 110:25 123:3 takes 24:16,18

24:18 122:15 139:7,23 talk4:17 7:13

30:2 31:11 48:23,25 49:10 52:6 53:14 61:15 69:2 70:21 70:24 71:8 71:11,11,14 74:11 75:7 75:10 80:22 87:18 99:21 125:7 129:22 130:14,18 131:19 135:7 137:9,9,15 142:11 talked 38:16

39:21 64:8 76:19 129:11 131:5 132:9 133:19 138:18 talking 29:16 36:17 38:6 42:4 47:17 48:4 50:12 52:23 68:25 69:14 70:8 70:10 79:6 80:20 86:23 90:6 91:21 93:1 95:9 106:1 109:15 113:18 128:15 130:15 138:19 talks 5:2 130:10 target47:6,10

84:7 133:9 task8:18 66:1

82:1,3 tasked 131:4 tasks 124:9,11 team 124:16 125:7,7 126:21 technical

20:17 technological

25:11 technologies

87:10 125:15 125:15 technology 16:18,25 25:8,22 76:15 99:15 teleconferen... 124:20 128:16 tell 54:3 102:23 122:17 temperature 41:3 53:9 57:9 ten 16:25 110:18 125:17 tentative41:4

54:23 term 5:11 7:11 17:4 19:3,6 23:13,19 24:7,8 42:18 101:23 117:14 120:21 121:19 129:3 138:19 139:15 terming 120:25 121:3 121:15,17 terminology

44:22 terms 3:19 4:8

7:9,14 10:2 11:3,3,25 13:25 15:5,6 24:21 27:13 28:7,10 33:4 35:6,11 38:24 41:24 42:4 44:12 44:22 45:11 46:16 48:5 49:19 68:21 71:4 73:11 76:21 78:24 82:16 93:23 95:12 97:4 99:2 103:17 105:25 109:1 110:16 112:1 112:2 116:2 119:24 120:23

## Meeting June 17, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 31 121:14,15,21 126:20 131:10 132:12 140:4 test8:20,25 16:19 20:7 21:2,11,11 21:15,17,22 22:2 23:12 23:16 24:11 35:6 37:4 48:13 49:17 50:25 57:9 57:18 69:12 69:13,24,25 70:2,4,9,12 70:15,15,17 72:4,21 73:3 73:6 74:1,13 74:16,22,24 75:6,13,15 75:18,23 76:9,17,20 77:6,13,22 78:11 80:1,7 81:2,5 82:11 83:4,12,24 84:4,5,11,13 84:17,17,18 84:22 85:22 86:15,24 87:11,20,22 88:1,9,13,22 89:2,14 90:7 90:22,23 91:3,8,10,16 91:19 92:17 92:23 93:2 93:18 94:16 94:16 95:3,6 95:8,15,23 96:1 97:2,13 97:24 98:3,4 98:9 99:6,10 99:19 100:4 100:12,22 101:2,25 104:5 106:5 106:11 110:2 110:3 130:20 131:6,9 132:8 133:13 133:18,20,23 134:11,19,23 138:24 139:1 139:4 142:15 testable34:20 tested 34:16

43:4 99:24 testing 16:20

21:5 47:16 74:12 80:17 85:6 86:1,25 90:2,4 94:11 95:9,22 96:14,21,25 98:18 100:14 tests 88:6,6 134:2 thank7:7 17:1

24:9 27:19 29:4 73:4 109:21 136:21 thanks5:20 13:24 26:8 32:1 110:21 117:5 128:22 140:7 142:21 Tharp 100:18 theoretically 131:22 thermal 19:20

63:13 they'd 14:6 thing 7:16 17:6

20:5 27:12 30:23 35:10 39:18 40:12 43:25 46:11 50:18 52:21 54:9 68:16 81:1,24 82:5 94:25 97:6 98:5,18 101:1,3 112:14 119:25 125:14 126:2 126:3 127:14 129:22 130:3 130:6,7 140:23 things4:17

9:19,22 14:1 15:19 16:3,4 20:8 21:10 21:14 29:19 32:22 36:11 37:3,5,13 38:23 40:22 41:6 46:9 49:8 50:16 51:19 55:19 55:20 56:2 56:11 58:12 59:21 60:22 64:6 66:12 73:11 80:9 90:21 112:2 125:1,18,25 127:11,15 128:11,12,12 130:10 133:14 135:1 141:23 think4:3,4,5

5:4,10 6:2,6 6:16 7:16,20 8:10 9:20 11:10 13:19 16:16,17,21 16:22 17:3 17:25 18:12 18:15 19:6,8 19:9 23:7,23 23:23 25:15 25:21,22 26:2,21 27:1 27:1 29:12 29:12,14,23 30:3,9,13,14 30:18,21,24 31:6,7 32:19 33:16,17,19 34:14 35:10 35:10,13,18 36:16 37:7 38:14 39:9 40:2 41:2 42:1,5,12,22 43:18 46:16 46:18 49:8 49:11,22 50:3,14 51:9 51:13,17,19 51:21,22 52:10,10,13 52:14,20 53:7,15,22 54:3,9 55:8 55:12,14,15 56:14 57:1,5 57:15 58:15 58:17,19 59:10,20 60:2,21 61:1 61:11 65:13 66:4,5,6,7,7 66:9,21 67:21,24 68:1,10,11 68:12,15,16 68:20 69:2 69:10 70:7 71:13,14,18 74:18,19,23 75:9,13,21 75:23 76:4 76:16 78:11 79:7,15,18 79:22 80:4 80:10 81:3,6 81:16 82:5 82:25 83:10 83:11,17 85:5,25 87:6 87:7,12,14 87:15 88:2,8 88:14,25 89:3,7,11,11 90:1,2,11,18 90:24 92:7,8 92:21,21 93:1,8 94:4,5 94:5,7,14,18 95:11,21 96:9,20,21 96:24 97:4 97:11 98:21 98:22,25 99:1,9 100:6 100:20 102:25 103:2 103:13,15 104:6 105:1 105:7,10 106:3,10,12 108:19 109:4 110:1,19 111:7,8 112:9,14 113:15,16,21 114:7,18 115:11 116:7 120:17,20,24 121:8,10 122:20,24 123:7,10,19 124:9,13

## Meeting June 17, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 32 126:8,19 128:18,23 129:15,19 130:9,12 132:4,14,17 132:24 133:6 133:15,19,20 134:5,7,13 135:16 137:21 138:11,24 139:11 140:16 142:13,23 thinking 24:13

42:16,17,18 46:9 81:14 82:16 83:7 84:10 94:25 115:19 129:2 136:12 thinks 80:11 100:18 third 10:16

78:18 140:8 this'll 119:3,3 thought3:14

9:23 23:25 24:1 30:11 32:8 44:7 47:13 65:4 85:21 86:12 87:24 94:2,9 94:25 106:13 107:6 133:24 thoughts

56:25 85:3 86:13 106:11 thousands

38:8 three 14:3 21:9

40:5,9,19 45:25 55:22 63:11,20 83:8,11 91:5 91:7 100:12 100:19 101:1 108:5,6 119:21 124:6 three-month

86:9,23 three-year 10:5 108:4 throwing

82:18 126:21 thrown 101:3 Thursday 119:8 Thursdays 119:8 tied 93:18,20 132:22 tier24:24 59:1 tight82:1,6,7,9

88:1 115:16 138:13 time4:13,15

4:16,21 7:19 10:4,5 12:22 16:1,7 18:8 21:4 27:14 28:16 30:5 35:24 38:11 51:24 52:3 52:16,17,22 53:5,11,13 53:17 55:16 56:2 59:1 66:2,8 68:17 68:19 74:7 80:8 82:16 84:16,24 85:2,5,8,25 88:5,6,13 89:10 90:21 91:8,13 92:22 95:7,8 95:13,21 96:1 98:14 99:7 101:15 101:19,25 102:4,6,10 104:13 105:13,14 106:23 107:5 107:18 108:7 108:11,14 111:1,6,8,25 112:10 113:20,25 114:14 116:13 122:7 122:15,16 123:20 130:18,20 131:16 132:20 134:17 139:17 141:21 142:4 timeline 82:1

86:10 94:23 101:8 102:15 109:6 132:10 132:15,20,23 134:22 135:20 136:12 timelines

70:25 72:19 times 67:8

96:1 123:17 141:13 142:10 timing 29:13

69:1,2,11 73:20,24,24 76:21 81:7 81:11 97:4 100:18 timing's 101:21 today4:18 6:21 9:14 21:25 28:15 42:11 45:21 46:19 63:12 74:5 103:18 111:25 112:9 115:14 121:25 123:11,13 134:15 135:25 137:18,25 today's 124:23 told 49:12

62:11 Tom 1:11 2:15 114:23 119:11 131:1 Tom's24:1 tomorrow3:9

73:16 Tony 113:6 tool 43:20 top5:1 18:9 122:15 131:9 132:16 topic39:20

40:4 55:16 57:1,14 64:11 65:24 66:14 68:3 98:5 112:3 130:20,22 131:1 topics4:16 19:14 57:8 80:21 89:5 111:1 126:18 131:14 140:14 142:5 142:11,16,18 142:19 tossing 94:22 total 19:10 56:13 60:3 83:8 142:20 totally8:12

62:5 tough 41:14 115:15,16 track 12:14

66:4 train 47:13 trajectory 16:6 Trane7:6,8 transcribe 143:4 TRANSCRIB... 1:25 transcript 143:5 transformer 126:11 transformers 125:22,24 126:5,7 traveling 3:7 118:15 treat94:16 treated 61:10

94:10 tricky34:12 tried 63:21 tries20:21 trigger 17:24 triggers 17:19 17:21 18:4 triple85:7 102:6 trotted 3:18 trouble9:6

40:14 true2:20 25:22

76:1 143:5 truly56:1 truncated 111:2

## Meeting June 17, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 33 try49:8 51:11

90:10 115:13 117:21 118:1 125:23 136:19,20 trying5:5 8:18 16:23 44:18 44:18 46:1 52:10,14 64:3 74:18 76:17 79:17 85:8 87:15 90:14,16 97:15 103:16 126:14 129:4 TSD 98:19 Tuesday51:14

51:16,17 53:3 turn 124:10 turned 2:5 turns61:4 twenty 120:8 two 6:11 10:11 10:16,22 11:20 14:3 15:22 17:8 17:14,19 24:14 26:19 29:14 33:22 36:17 40:20 41:6 52:19 56:11 58:16 59:3 60:2,15 64:7 67:6,8,8 69:25 75:17 90:21 91:3,7 98:3 106:18 114:12 115:2 115:16 117:14 118:25 119:1 120:7 121:7 121:20 122:3 122:5 132:13 134:8 140:10 141:4,23 two-hour 142:20 two-month

91:15 two-step 15:16 type31:4

35:12,18 82:1 101:1 136:15,19 types35:4

84:15 136:24 typical 30:9

35:2 typically91:25

94:7,12 104:21 U U.S 15:2 ultimate 10:21 ultimately 19:2

19:3 22:8,25 30:3 39:14 49:20 93:3 125:12 unanimous

8:14 20:3 unanimously

25:5 33:11 uncertain 74:9 undermines

23:5 understand

9:21 13:10 20:10 46:24 50:4 52:18 56:9 59:18 67:21 70:3 85:12,14 90:7 96:6 102:9,10 103:13,16,20 104:6 138:7 understanda...

59:16 understandi...

17:17 21:21 55:15 62:9 62:21 80:11 86:10 87:2 understands

62:23 understood

12:10,11,13 55:9 75:24 103:7 underway8:10

71:20 undue34:22 unit45:18 unitary 101:20 units3:20 8:3

22:16 27:7,7 27:25 44:13 44:14 127:9 universe45:3 unknown

100:20,22 unmute3:2 unmuted 69:6 upcoming

85:19 update 17:12

33:13 36:6 77:22 120:22 120:23 124:11 updates 3:17

3:23 4:12 6:16 updating

134:24 upfront88:3 upside 129:23 urgent 134:20 usage 129:21 138:20,20 use5:10 10:10

10:16 11:19 12:17 20:13 20:16 21:24 22:18 25:18 34:23 36:23 37:18,19 38:21 66:5,7 71:2 91:8 97:10 136:20 useful 11:21

17:3 105:14 105:15 112:9 139:7 140:5 users 15:3 uses 30:13 usually26:18

111:8 utilities 12:23 utility9:9 V vacation 114:10 valid 56:24 value 15:3

22:7,9 99:9 values24:21

25:3 variable 10:10

25:10,10 variety 13:20

38:4 52:3 various 11:14 16:9 124:9 ventilation

20:15,16,18 38:7 versions 134:24 versus38:17

47:4 138:8 VFD 16:18 view 13:3 16:11 44:6 65:18 68:8 73:22 75:20 108:18 viewpoints

60:7 visits 134:3 voice68:7 volume37:1 volunteer 112:22 117:3 135:10 volunteered 116:25 124:9 124:10 128:25 volunteers 112:20 128:21 132:19 135:17 vote20:3 33:3

33:7 35:16 49:23 55:3 57:23 65:1,2 65:2,3,20 106:14 108:18,22,23 voted50:19

57:8 61:13 62:24 64:15 65:5,9 votes41:3

49:16 52:1,1 53:7,25 54:23 57:9 59:25,25 60:2,3 voting 13:22

51:18 60:1 109:8,25

## Meeting June 17, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 34 W wait4:24,25

4:25,25 96:22 waiting 52:8

97:1 walk 17:4 87:4 walking 127:17 want2:2,3

4:17 7:12 12:24 17:17 29:5 31:23 32:10,12,23 35:12,19 36:3 40:12 40:24 41:6 43:17,20 44:20,21 45:22 47:22 48:8 52:8,21 52:23 53:6,8 53:13,16,17 53:19 54:11 55:1,16 61:15 66:24 68:6 69:7,12 69:21 71:11 71:11,12,15 79:24,25 80:2,2,4,6,10 81:16 84:12 84:15,24 86:17 88:3 94:2 96:11 96:12 97:6 97:17,19 101:8,13 102:18 103:21 104:1 104:6 105:1 105:24 107:3 107:7 108:14 108:23,24 109:8 111:8 111:16,22 112:5,8 114:13 115:20 120:22 121:4 121:22 128:2 131:24 135:9 135:15,17 140:14,15,19 140:22,24 141:9,15,15 141:20,25 142:5 wanted 8:23

29:21 31:25 32:3 47:20 52:20 75:7 117:3 137:12 wants 29:7

69:6 121:3 warm 19:19

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## Meeting June 17, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 35 wondering

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## Meeting June 17, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 36 15th 39:10

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