### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. Page 1**  **U.S. DEPARTMENT OF ENERGY + + + + +**  **ELECTRIC MOTORS ENERGY CONSERVATION STANDARDS NOTICE OF PROPOSED RULEMAKING** 

**+ + + + + PUBLIC MEETING** 

**+ + + + + WEDNESDAY**  **DECEMBER 11, 2013 + + + + +**  **The Public Meeting was held in Room 8E-089, 1000 Independence Avenue, S.W.,**  **Washington, D.C., at 9:00 a.m., Doug Brookman, Meeting Facilitator, presiding.**  **PRESENT DOUG BROOKMAN, Meeting Facilitator, Public**  **Solutions, Inc. JERRY ALLEN, Metglas, Inc.**  **KIRK ANDERSON, UL LLC TIMOTHY BALLO, Earthjustice**  **DALE BASSO, WEG Electric Corp. TOM BISHOP, Electrical Apparatus Service**  **Association ALEX BOESENBERG, National Electrical**  **Manufacturers Association (NEMA) ROBERT BOTELER, Nidec Motor Corporation**  **NED BRUSH, Consultant RICK BUDZYNSKI, Baldor Electric Company/ABB**  **JEFF CASEY, Brook Crompton Americas BRIAN COFFEY, Navigant Consulting, Inc.**  **HAYDEN COOK, Navigant Consulting, Inc.**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. Page 2**  **JOHN CYMBALSKY, U.S. Department of Energy DAN DELANEY, Regal Beloit**  **ANDREW deLASKI, Appliance Standards Awareness Project**  **NEAL ELLIOTT, American Council for an Energy-Efficient Economy (ACEEE)**  **GARY FERNSTROM, California Investor Owned Utilities**  **BILL FINLEY, Siemens AMI GRACE-TARDY, U.S. Department of Energy**  **WILLIAM HOYT, National Electrical Manufacturers Association (NEMA)**  **SANAEE IYAMA, Lawrence Berkeley National Laboratory**  **VIJETA JANGRA, Navigant Consulting, Inc. MICHAEL KIDO, U.S. Department of Energy**  **FRANK LADONNE, UL LLC DONALD LANSER, Nidec Motor Corporation**  **PAUL LIN, Regal Beloit JOHN MALINOWSKI, Baldor Electric Company/ABB**  **Group JAMES RABA, U.S. Department of Energy**  **DOUG RAWALD, U.S. Department of Energy STEVE ROSENSTOCK, Edison Electric Institute**  **STEVE RUFFING, Nidec Motor Corporation CHARLIE STEVENS, Northwest Energy Efficiency**  **Alliance ATTENDING VIA WEBINAR**  **HOWARD E. JORDAN, Consultant AUSTIN BONNETT, Austin Bonnett Engineering, LLC**  **ROGER DAUGHERTY, Baldor Electric Company/ABB EMMANUEL AGAMLOH, Advanced Energy**  **JAMES ALT, NORD Drivesystems JUN ASAI, Sumitomo Machinery Corp. of America**  **JEAN-PIERRE BOIVIN, CSA Group TERRY BRENNAN, Natural Resources Canada**  **BRUNET D. BROWN, GreenTech Motors Corp. MICHAEL BRUIN, General Electric**  **KITT BUTLER, Advanced Energy KRISTEN DRISKELL, California Energy Commission**  **CHAD GALLINAT, U.S. Department of Energy**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. Page 3**  **ERIN HOPE, Bonneville Power Administration RONALD MARTIS, Metglas, Inc.**  **DAVID MILLURE, Metglas, Inc. RICK MORRISON, CSA Group**  **TUAN NGO, California Energy Commission AL PADILLA, UL LLC**  **ROBERT PAULEY, Hitachi America BRAM PONIVAS, UL LLC**  **WERNER RAUER, Compressed Air and Gas Institute (CAGI)**  **TOMAS RINCON, Xylem PAUL RYAN, HMA**  **LINDA WILSON, NYS Office of the Attorney General MICHAEL WOODFORD, Air-Conditioning, Heating &**  **Refrigeration Institute (AHRI)**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. Page 4**  **T-A-B-L-E O-F C-O-N-T-E-N-T-S PAGE**  **Welcome Doug Brookman** 

**........................... 5**  **John Cymbalsky**

**.......................... 5**  **Introductions, Agenda Review, Ground Rules**  **Doug Brookman**

**........................... 7**  **Opening Remarks, Background Jim Raba ...............................15**  **Opening Comments from Participants Doug Brookman**  **..........................18 Regulatory History**  **Jim Raba ...............................28 Market and Technology Assessment**  **Brian Coffey ...........................39 Engineering Analysis**  **Brian Coffey ...........................85 Markups and Energy Use Analysis and**  **Life Cycle Cost Analysis Sanaee Iyama ......................... 132**  **Shipments, National Impact and Regulatory Impact Analysis**  **Sanaee Iyama ......................... 147 Manufacturer Impact Analysis**  **Hayden Cook .......................... 168 Environmental Impact, Utility Impact and**  **Employment Impact Analysis Sanaee Iyama ......................... 188** 

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. Page 5**  **T-A-B-L-E O-F C-O-N-T-E-N-T-S**

**Summary of Results and Proposed Standards Sanaee Iyama ......................... 191** 

**Closing Comments from Participants Doug Brookman**  **........................ 192**

**Closing Remarks Jim Raba ............................. 196** 

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. Page 6**  **1** 

### P-R-O-C-E-E-D-I-N-G-S **2** 

### (9:45 a.m.) **3** 

### MR. BROOKMAN: Good morning, **4** 

### everyone, and welcome. This is the U.S. **5** 

### Department of Energy's public meeting about the **6** 

### Proposed Rulemaking for Electric Motor Energy **7** 

### Conservation Standards. Today is Wednesday, **8** 

### December 11th, 2013, here in the Forrestal **9** 

### Building in Washington, D.C. **10** 

### My name's Doug Brookman. I'm from **11** 

### Public Solutions in Baltimore. So glad to see you **12** 

### here. Many apologies for our late start. We've **13** 

### had some A/V problems for weeks now and I think **14** 

### maybe we've fixed it. So far it's sounding good **15** 

### here in the room, knock on wood, at the moment. **16** 

### We're going to start this morning **17** 

### with welcoming remarks from John Cymbalsky. **18** 

### MR. CYMBALSKY: Thank you, Doug. My **19** 

### name's John Cymbalsky. I am the Program Manager **20** 

### for the Appliance Standards Program here at DOE. **21** 

### Let me welcome you to beautiful, **22** 

### cold, snowy Washington, D.C. So for those of you

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. Page 7**  **1** 

### who didn't know, we had a shutdown yesterday so **2** 

### little bit disorganized this morning but I think **3** 

### we're on track. And welcome to all of you on the **4** 

### webinar as well. **5** 

### I know this rule has been a long time **6** 

### coming but I hope what you see presented here is **7** 

### something that everybody can find some happiness **8** 

### and joy with for the holiday season. **9** 

### I'd particularly like to thank those **10** 

### of you in the Motor Coalition who has presented **11** 

### the Department a pretty nice proposal for **12** 

### standards for motors. **13** 

### And, as always, I'd like to thank the **14** 

### team here at DOE that really worked very hard, **15** 

### both our consultants, our attorneys, our PM-Jim **16** 

### Raba. We put a lot of work and effort into this. **17** 

### I think we did the rule twice, based **18** 

### on the information we received from the Motor **19** 

### Coalition, but at the end of the day, I **20** 

### personally think a little extra time was worth **21** 

### what we perceive to be one of the biggest **22** 

### energy-saving rules the Department may ever

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. Page 8**  **1** 

### issue as a final rule if it stays intact the way **2** 

### it is here presented today. **3** 

### So again, welcome everyone and thank **4** 

### you for coming. **5** 

### MR. BROOKMAN: It's typical for us to **6** 

### start with introductions, so I'll start to my **7** 

### immediate left. You can get used to turning these **8** 

### microphones on and off, just leave them off **9** 

### unless you're speaking. Your name and **10** 

### organizational affiliation, please. **11** 

### MR. BASSO: Dale Basso, WEG Electric and **12** 

### also the Vice Chairman of Motor/Generator **13** 

### Section, NEMA. **14** 

### MR. FERNSTROM: Gary Fernstrom **15** 

### representing the California Investor Owned **16** 

### Utilities and the millions of customers they **17** 

### serve. That would be Pacific Gas and Electric **18** 

### Company, Southern California Edison, San Diego **19** 

### Gas & Electric and the Southern California Gas **20** 

### Company. **21** 

### We're authorized by the California **22** 

### Public Utilities Commission to advocate for

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. Page 9**  **1** 

### improved state and federal standards. The energy **2** 

### savings stemming from that part of our **3** 

### operation, our portfolio, amounts to about a **4** 

### third of the energy savings that we attain. **5** 

### MR. BOTELER: Rob Boteler, Nidec **6** 

### Motor Corporation, St. Louis, Chairman of the **7** 

### NEMA Energy Committee. **8** 

### MR. RUFFING: Steve Ruffing, Nidec **9** 

### Motor Corporation, which is a NEMA member. **10** 

### MR. LANSER: Don Lanser, Nidec Motor **11** 

### Corporation. **12** 

### MR. BOESENBERG: Alex Boesenberg, **13** 

### Manager of Regulatory Affairs for the National **14** 

### Electrical Manufacturers Association. **15** 

### MR. ELLIOTT: Neal Elliott, American **16** 

### Council for an Energy-Efficient Economy **17** 

### representing the Motor Coalition of energy **18** 

### efficiency advocates and motor manufacturers in **19** 

### NEMA. **20** 

### MR. DELANEY: Dan Delaney from Regal **21** 

### Beloit, as well a NEMA member. **22** 

### MR. MALINOWSKI: John Malinowski,

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. Page 10**  **1** 

### Baldor Electric Company, Fort Smith, Arkansas, **2** 

### and also ABB Incorporated and I am the Chairman **3** 

### of the NEMA Motor and Generator Committee. **4** 

### MR. FINLEY: Bill Finley with Siemens **5** 

### and I'm also Chairman of the International **6** 

### Standardization Section of NEMA. **7** 

### MR. deLASKI: Andrew deLaski, **8** 

### Appliance Standards Awareness Project. **9** 

### MR. LADONNE: Frank Ladonne, UL. **10** 

### MR. ROSENSTOCK: Steve Rosenstock, **11** 

### Edison Electric Institute. **12** 

### MR. RAWALD: Doug Rawald, Department **13** 

### of Energy's Office of General Counsel. **14** 

### MR. KIDO: Michael Kido, Department **15** 

### of Energy, Office of the General Counsel. **16** 

### MS. GRACE-TARDY: Ami Grace-Tardy, **17** 

### DOE, Office of the General Counsel. **18** 

### MR. RABA: Jim Raba, Project Manager **19** 

### for Motors and today's presiding officer, DOE. **20** 

### MR. CYMBALSKY: John Cymbalsky, DOE. **21** 

### MR. BROOKMAN: Please stand up. **22** 

### MR. COFFEY: Brian Coffey with

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. Page 11**  **1** 

### Navigant. **2** 

### MS. JANGRA: Vijeta Jangra with **3** 

### Navigant. **4** 

### MR. COOK: Hayden Cook with Navigant. **5** 

### MS. IYAMA: Sanaee Iyama with the **6** 

### Lawrence Berkeley National Lab. **7** 

### MR. BROOKMAN: And let's start, **8** 

### please, yes, in the back. **9** 

### MR. BUDZYNSKI: Rick Budzynski, **10** 

### Baldor Electric. **11** 

### MR. BRUSH: Ned Brush, consultant. **12** 

### MR. BROOKMAN: It'll just be **13** 

### sufficient to stand. Just speak loudly. **14** 

### MR. ALLEN: Jerry Allen, Metglas. We **15** 

### make amorphous metals for magnetic **16** 

### applications. **17** 

### MR. BROOKMAN: Thank you. **18** 

### MR. HOYT: Bill Hoyt. I'm Industry **19** 

### Director with the National Electrical **20** 

### Manufacturers Association. **21** 

### MR. BISHOP: Tom Bishop with the **22** 

### Electrical Apparatus Service Association.

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. Page 12**  **1** 

### MR. ANDERSON: Kirk Anderson, UL. **2** 

### MR. CASEY: Jeff Casey, Brook **3** 

### Crompton Americas. We're a NEMA member. **4** 

### MR. STEVENS: Charlie Stevens, **5** 

### Northwest Energy Efficiency Alliance. **6** 

### MR. LIN: Paul Lin with Regal Beloit. **7** 

### MR. BALLO: Tim Ballo with **8** 

### Earthjustice. **9** 

### MR. BROOKMAN: Again, welcome to **10** 

### everyone. Glad you're here. Thanks for coming. **11** 

### All of you received a packet of **12** 

### information as you checked in this morning. I'm **13** 

### going to do a very brief agenda review. Following **14** 

### the agenda review and meeting norms is an **15** 

### opportunity for anyone that wants to make brief **16** 

### summary remarks about issues that matter to you **17** 

### here at the outset. **18** 

### And following those opening **19** 

### remarks, we're going to hear from Jim Raba, **20** 

### background and regulatory history. Oh, I got the **21** 

### sequence wrong. Following Jim's opening remarks **22** 

### and background on regulatory history, then

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. Page 13**  **1** 

### we're going to take opening remarks from **2** 

### everyone here present. **3** 

### Moving on from there, market and **4** 

### technology assessment and then we'll take a **5** 

### break midmorning right about 10:15 or 10:30 or **6** 

### so. From there, we're going to hear about **7** 

### engineering analysis, and then following on from **8** 

### there markups and energy use analysis, **9** 

### life-cycle cost analysis. We'll take lunch **10** 

### midday, around about noon-ish or so. **11** 

### Shipments, national impact **12** 

### analysis, regulatory impact analysis when we **13** 

### return, and then following that, manufacturer **14** 

### impact analysis, environmental impact, utility **15** 

### impact and employment impact analyses. And then **16** 

### directly following on, summary of results and **17** 

### proposed standards. **18** 

### And then get another opportunity at **19** 

### the end of the day, closing remarks from anyone **20** 

### present, any other issues you wish to raise that **21** 

### you don't think have been fully described and **22** 

### covered at that point. Question here?

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. Page 14**  **1** 

### MR. RUFFING: Doug, sorry for the **2** 

### interruption. **3** 

### MR. BROOKMAN: Yes. **4** 

### MR. RUFFING: I just realized when I **5** 

### checked in this morning I neglected to receive **6** 

### a packet. Is there an extra copy -- **7** 

### MR. BROOKMAN: I'm sure there is, **8** 

### yes. Here's one right here and we'll find more. **9** 

### MR. RUFFING: Thank you. **10** 

### MR. BROOKMAN: Anybody else need **11** 

### materials? Okay. Many of you have been to these **12** 

### meetings previously. I would ask for your **13** 

### consideration to observe the following, what I **14** 

### think is simple courtesy. **15** 

### If you would speak one at a time, if **16** 

### you'd say your name for the record each time **17** 

### before you speak. There'll be a complete **18** 

### transcript of this meeting posted on the DOE **19** 

### website. Keep the focus here, please. Turn your **20** 

### cell phones on silent mode. Limit sidebar **21** 

### conversations. **22** 

### If you could try to be concise, share

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. Page 15**  **1** 

### the air time. There have been a few times **2** 

### recently when there's been a lot of additional **3** 

### comment and it hasn't been exactly on point and **4** 

### we've ended up at the end of the day being a **5** 

### little pressed for time. **6** 

### So I'm going to try and enforce a **7** 

### germaneness rule as we're going along today. Be **8** 

### concise if you would. Please share the air time. **9** 

### I'm going to be cuing individuals by **10** 

### name as best I can. Wish to also encourage **11** 

### follow-on comment. That's very helpful to the **12** 

### Department sometimes. **13** 

### For those of you joining us via the **14** 

### web, so glad to have you here. Welcome. The **15** 

### Department of Energy is trying hard to make these **16** 

### meetings accessible via the web. **17** 

### And if you would keep your **18** 

### telephones on mute and then raise your hand using **19** 

### the software available and then the webmaster **20** 

### here will notify me and we'll insert you in the **21** 

### conversation. We've already tested the system **22** 

### this morning. Seems to be working, that we can

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. Page 16**  **1** 

### hear you loud and clear if you wish to speak in **2** 

### the course of the meeting today. **3** 

### And I think that's all the **4** 

### preliminary stuff. I think we're going to hear **5** 

### from Jim Raba, opening remarks. **6** 

### MR. RABA: Good morning everyone and **7** 

### welcome, whether you're attending today's **8** 

### public meeting in person or via the webinar. **9** 

### I'm Jim Raba, Project Manager for **10** 

### Motors, today's presiding officer, and I will **11** 

### echo John Cymbalsky's remarks about thanking **12** 

### you, the participants in this public rulemaking **13** 

### process, to arrive at a very worthwhile idea for **14** 

### efficiency standards, and certainly the people **15** 

### who put this together, the team put the **16** 

### rulemaking together and the people in the **17** 

### logistics area who are supporting this meeting **18** 

### today. So thank you to them. **19** 

### Where the Energy Policy and **20** 

### Conservation Act as amended prescribes energy **21** 

### conservation standards for certain commercial **22** 

### and industrial electric motors, the Department

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. Page 17**  **1** 

### of Energy proposes amendments to those **2** 

### standards. **3** 

### Today's public meeting will address **4** 

### the proposed amendments in view of public **5** 

### comments and other information received thus far **6** 

### and the analyses that would substantiate any **7** 

### amended efficiency levels. **8** 

### DOE's analyses indicate that the **9** 

### proposed standards would save a significant **10** 

### amount of energy. Estimated lifetime savings for **11** 

### electric motors purchased over the 30-year **12** 

### period that runs 2015 through 2044 would amount **13** 

### to 7 quads full-fuel-cycle energy. The **14** 

### annualized energy savings are equivalent to one **15** 

### percent of the total U.S. primary energy **16** 

### consumption in 2011. **17** 

### Estimated cumulative net present **18** 

### value of total consumer costs and savings **19** 

### attributed to the proposed standards ranges from **20** 

### $8.7 billion at seven percent discount rate to **21** 

### $23.3 billion at three percent discount rate. **22** 

### As we move forward, the Department

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. Page 18**  **1** 

### of Energy encourages you and other interested **2** 

### parties -- **3** 

### (Off-microphone discussion) **4** 

### MR. RABA: As we move forward, the **5** 

### Department of Energy encourages you and other **6** 

### interested parties to consider the proposed **7** 

### efficiency levels, underlying analyses, and **8** 

### submit written comments with supporting **9** 

### information and data. **10** 

### MR. BROOKMAN: Okay, great. So then **11** 

### now, as we had mentioned at the outset, opening **12** 

### statements here at the outset, and Neal Elliott. **13** 

### MR. ELLIOTT: Thank you, Doug and **14** 

### Jim. I'm delivering some opening remarks on **15** 

### behalf of the Motor Coalition, which is made up **16** 

### of the energy efficiency advocate groups led by **17** 

### the Appliance Standards Awareness Project and **18** 

### NEMA and its members. **19** 

### First, I want to commend the **20** 

### Department. This, as Jim already noted, is one **21** 

### of the most important energy efficiency **22** 

### standards activities that the Department has

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. Page 19**  **1 enacted in a number of years.**  **2 We also want to acknowledge and**  **3 extend our appreciation to the Department for**  **4 accepting the petition that the Motor Coalition**  **5 made to the Department now a little more than**  **6 three years ago. The members of the Motor**  **7 Coalition came together with the goal of trying**  **8 to simplify compliance and ease enforcement for**  **9 polyphase induction motors. We've gone through**  **10 several rule cycles now and feel that this**  **11 approach that was made as part of the petition**  **12 moves us to a much better place and we are pleased**  **13 to see that the Department agreed with the**  **14 petition on this.**  **15 We also appreciate the acceptance of**  **16 the concept of broadening the scope rather than**  **17 trying to raise the level of efficiency and the**  **18 acceptance of the TSL 2 efficiency levels. We**  **19 think this process worked very well and would**  **20 encourage the Department to engage in similar**  **21 processes as other products move forward. We**  **22 feel that the opportunity for energy efficiency** 

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. Page 20**  **1** 

### advocates and manufacturers to collaborate and **2** 

### work on what is both a market-acceptable **3** 

### procedure that also looks at societal benefits **4** 

### that accrue from energy efficiency ends up **5** 

### producing a product that is both easier from the **6** 

### compliance perspective, easier from the **7** 

### enforcement perspective and has the benefits of **8** 

### maximizing societal benefits from this. **9** 

### As you work forward toward a final **10** 

### rule and over the next, I guess six, seven weeks **11** 

### moving to the comment deadline, we would offer **12** 

### to assist the Department as it moves to the final **13** 

### rule. **14** 

### One part of the request for that is **15** 

### that we have a number of different rules, a **16** 

### number of different documents that have moved **17** 

### forward that relate to motors and I would **18** 

### emphasize the issuance of the final rule last **19** 

### week with respect to the motor test procedures. **20** 

### One of the concerns that the coalition has is **21** 

### that there are a proliferation of documents that **22** 

### exist in different places.

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. Page 21**  **1** 

### And as you move to the final rule, **2** 

### we would ask that the Department consider **3** 

### consolidating the materials associated with **4** 

### motors in Section 431 of the Code of Federal **5** 

### Register so that there is a one-stop shop, if you **6** 

### will, for people both on the consumer side and **7** 

### the manufacturers, both domestically and **8** 

### internationally, where they can go to obtain **9** 

### information related to this rule. There's a lot **10** 

### of good information that has been assembled. A **11** 

### lot of that is in these various rulemaking **12** 

### documents. Having it in one place is, we feel, **13** 

### going to make the compliance and market impacts **14** 

### much more tenable moving forward. **15** 

### Finally I wanted to note that in our **16** 

### original petition, the motor manufacturers and **17** 

### the efficiency advocates had agreed that 24 **18** 

### months was a reasonable time frame for achieving **19** 

### compliance with the rule as proposed. And in **20** 

### review and conversation among NEMA members and **21** 

### the advocates, we continue to feel that a **22** 

### 24-months compliance deadline following the

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. Page 22**  **1** 

### issuance of final rule represents a reasonable **2** 

### time frame for implementation of the rule going **3** 

### forward. **4** 

### Again, on behalf of all the parties **5** 

### that represent the Motor Coalition, we **6** 

### appreciate the opportunity to work with the **7** 

### Department on this and appreciate the **8** 

### Department's willingness to entertain the **9** 

### comments from the coalition members. And we look **10** 

### forward, moving forward, to working with the **11** 

### Department on other future rulemakings in a **12** 

### similar manner. With that, thank you very much. **13** 

### MR. BROOKMAN: Thank you. Other **14** 

### opening remarks? Steve Rosenstock. **15** 

### MR. ROSENSTOCK: Steve Rosenstock, **16** 

### Edison Electric Institute. I'd like to thank you **17** 

### for this time, the opportunity to make quick **18** 

### opening remarks. **19** 

### I think it's great that the **20** 

### advocates and the manufacturers were able to **21** 

### agree to standards. I think it's always a good **22** 

### thing. I think it does help the Department in its

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. Page 23**  **1** 

### work. However, not to be the fly in the ointment, **2** 

### but having had a chance to review the technical **3** 

### support document, I do have some concerns. **4** 

### One of the concerns I'll talk about **5** 

### is process. The other concern I'll try to **6** 

### highlight because I don't want to take up too **7** 

### much time since we started late in terms of some **8** 

### of the analysis that's shown in the technical **9** 

### support document. **10** 

### First, process. I'm lucky to be on **11** 

### the email list of DOE in terms of getting **12** 

### notification about upcoming standards and **13** 

### public meetings. I received my email the day **14** 

### before Thanksgiving, Wednesday afternoon, as **15** 

### I'm sure most people around the table did, and **16** 

### fortunately I was able to forward that email. I **17** 

### was in the office. I was able to forward that **18** 

### email to members of our Codes and Standards **19** 

### Group. **20** 

### However, for those people who aren't **21** 

### on the email list or aren't on the DOE's list, **22** 

### the notice didn't appear in the Federal Register

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. Page 24**  **1** 

### until December 6th, five days ago. Now, if we're **2** 

### in D.C., it's probably no problem. But for other **3** 

### stakeholders, other people, five days' official **4** 

### notice or even two weeks' notice can be kind of **5** 

### tough, especially this time of year. **6** 

### So I would urge the Department in the **7** 

### future, if possible, to provide at least three **8** 

### or four weeks' notice between issuing of a big **9** 

### NOPR and the public meeting because the **10** 

### Department does want feedback and it can make it **11** 

### tough for certain stakeholders to provide that **12** 

### feedback. **13** 

### Now, in terms of some of the **14** 

### analysis, some of my concerns deal with -- and **15** 

### again, I might not be here later because of other **16** 

### meetings, but I have some concerns about part of **17** 

### the process. **18** 

### One of the issues is for covered **19** 

### products, giving a two-year compliance lead time **20** 

### is probably no problem since a lot of the **21** 

### manufacturers were probably expecting that, **22** 

### especially after EISA 2007. However, for the

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. Page 25**  **1 newly covered products, for the products that**  **2 have never been covered before, providing them**  **3 only two years' time to comply with a brand-new**  **4 standard has not been done with other products.**  **5 Usually there's a three- to five-year lead time**  **6 for products that are newly covered by DOE to**  **7 give the manufacturers time to upgrade their**  **8 plants, to make the conversion capital**  **9 expenditures.**  **10 At this point, especially looking at**  **11 technical support document, if DOE comes out**  **12 with a final rule in the spring and the final rule**  **13 takes effect in December of 2015, you're talking**  **14 less than a year and a half for many of these**  **15 manufacturers who've never been covered by a**  **16 standard before. I think for those**  **17 manufacturers, again, I think it's not really a**  **18 long enough time and I think that they should be**  **19 given at least three years, at least for the**  **20 newly covered products. That would be**  **21 consistent with other rulemakings and other**  **22 products.** 

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. Page 26**  **1 I'm also concerned about, again, I**  **2 just want to highlight, the use of EL 0 for**  **3 products in the analysis. The use of EL 0,**  **4 especially for Equipment Class Group 1, tends to**  **5 significantly overstate the savings. As a former**  **6 utility person, if I went into a PUC saying I want**  **7 to do a motors efficiency program but I want to**  **8 use as my baseline, motors that haven't been**  **9 available on the marketplace for 16 years to**  **10 calculate my savings and benefits, I'd be kicked**  **11 out of the room. However, it's showing up in the**  **12 technical support document and I just find it**  **13 hard to believe that those motors are being used**  **14 as a baseline for the analysis, for the energy**  **15 savings and the economic analysis.**  **16 Other issues I have in terms of some**  **17 of the utility impacts and some of the shipments.**  **18 Again, I think the combination of all those tends**  **19 to overstate the national impacts, both in terms**  **20 of energy savings and economic benefits.**  **21 One other thing I also want to point**  **22 out, I'm a member of ASHRAE, especially for the** 

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. Page 27**  **1** 

### motors energy usage, basically since, **2** 

### especially since 2010, any fan motor in a **3** 

### commercial building, whether it's a ventilation **4** 

### fan or cooling tower fan, has to be controlled **5** 

### by either variable-speed drive or two-speed **6** 

### drive. That's going to have a significant impact **7** 

### on the energy usage of those motors in those **8** 

### commercial buildings. **9** 

### I did not see anything like that in **10** 

### the technical support document. I saw about the **11** 

### loading factor, which I thought was good, but I **12** 

### didn't see anything about the fact that many of **13** 

### these, especially fan motors, are going to be **14** 

### controlled, which will have the benefit of **15** 

### reducing the energy usage and also reducing the **16** 

### baseline usage and possibly the post-standards **17** 

### case usage as well. It has to do with the delta **18** 

### in terms of kilowatt hours. **19** 

### So, again, I think it's great that **20** 

### people were able to agree to the actual **21** 

### efficiency levels, but I think there are some **22** 

### concerns in terms of the final numbers in terms

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. Page 28**  **1** 

### of the impacts and as well as possible impacts **2** 

### on newly covered products. Thank you very much **3** 

### for your time. **4** 

### MR. BROOKMAN: Thank you. Other **5** 

### comments here at the outset? If not, let's move **6** 

### straight to the content. **7** 

### (Off-microphone discussion) **8** 

### MR. RABA: The Energy Policy and **9** 

### Conservation Act, EPCA, as amended and in **10** 

### particular by the Energy Policy Act, EPACT 1992, **11** 

### adds definitions, test procedures, energy **12** 

### efficiency standards, labeling and compliance **13** 

### certification requirements for certain **14** 

### commercial/industrial electric motors. **15** 

### Thereafter, the Energy Independence **16** 

### and Security Act amended the energy conservation **17** 

### standards prescribed under EPACT 1992 and **18** 

### established standards for a broader scope of **19** 

### motors. More recently, the American Energy **20** 

### Manufacturing Technical Corrections Act of 2012 **21** 

### added coverage to other motors. **22** 

### As to the current rulemaking, EPCA

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. Page 29**  **1** 

### requires DOE to periodically determine by rule **2** 

### whether to amend energy conservation standards **3** 

### for electric motors. Any standards that DOE **4** 

### prescribes would require compliance not earlier **5** 

### than December 2015. At this point would invite **6** 

### comments on the proposed compliance date, **7** 

### December 19th, 2015, knowing that we would not **8** 

### be able to prescribe compliance earlier than **9** 

### that. **10** 

### (Off-microphone discussion) **11** 

### MR. BOTELER: This is Rob Boteler **12** 

### with Nidec. The members of NEMA feel that that **13** 

### date is too soon and we would agree with what **14** 

### Steve said, that we need 24 months minimum from **15** 

### the final rule to achieve compliance because we **16** 

### do have many bills of material, thousands of **17** 

### bills of material that need to be addressed and **18** 

### changed. **19** 

### And he is correct, in some cases we **20** 

### have product which, at this point, has never been **21** 

### covered where we'll have to not only change the **22** 

### bill of material but do some corrective measures

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. Page 30**  **1** 

### to the design, so -- **2** 

### MR. BROOKMAN: Rob, you're speaking **3** 

### on behalf of NEMA? **4** 

### MR. BOTELER: I'm speaking on behalf **5** 

### of NEMA, yes. **6** 

### MR. BROOKMAN: Other comments about **7** 

### the compliance date. John Malinowski. **8** 

### MR. MALINOWSKI: John Malinowski and **9** 

### I'm going to speak on behalf of NEMA and add to **10** 

### what Rob said. Twenty-four months for sure. **11** 

### But the other thing that we need to **12** 

### look at, in previous rulings where third-party **13** 

### certification was required, the manufacturers **14** 

### and the OEMs received additional time to get **15** 

### those motors through third-party agencies. **16** 

### In this case, we have motors that **17** 

### might be going into a machine, that might be **18** 

### listed UL, CSA, some third-party organization. **19** 

### The motor itself might be UL, CSA, third-party **20** 

### listed. So there needs to be additional time on **21** 

### top of the 24 months for those cases as well. **22** 

### MR. BROOKMAN: Okay, thank you. Yes,

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. Page 31**  **1** 

### Dan. **2** 

### MR. DELANEY: Dan Delaney speaking on **3** 

### behalf of NEMA. Just to clarify again, we're **4** 

### talking about after the final rule, this 24 **5** 

### months, an additional time, typically been 48 **6** 

### months following the final rule for the **7** 

### certification of final end product. **8** 

### MR. BROOKMAN: Okay, thank you. Gary **9** 

### Fernstrom. **10** 

### MR. FERNSTROM: Gary Fernstrom. The **11** 

### California Investor Owned Utilities support two **12** 

### years, but not longer than that after the final **13** 

### rule goes into effect. **14** 

### MR. BROOKMAN: Thank you. Frank. **15** 

### MR. LADONNE: UL also, from a **16** 

### practical standpoint, supports no sooner than 24 **17** 

### months. **18** 

### MR. BROOKMAN: Okay, thank you. **19** 

### Additional comments here on compliance date? **20** 

### Andrew deLaski. **21** 

### MR. deLASKI: I think in the NOPR the **22** 

### Department says, you know, proposed the December

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. Page 32**  **1** 

### 19, 2015, and says, you know, solicit comment on **2** 

### this, recognizing that the Department missed its **3** 

### statutory deadline to complete the final rule, **4** 

### which I think was last December, right, was the **5** 

### statutory deadline. **6** 

### So I think the point is that if the **7** 

### manufacturers are telling you, we can do this in **8** 

### 24 months from the final rule date, that gives **9** 

### the Department pretty strong indication that **10** 

### that's an appropriate date because they're **11** 

### saying, look, we can do this in 24 months, guys, **12** 

### from the final rule. **13** 

### And that should be given a lot of **14** 

### consideration if you've got experts like the **15** 

### manufacturers themselves who do the testing and **16** 

### the certification and independent groups like UL **17** 

### who also do testing and certification. Should be **18** 

### given a lot of weight in this process and they're **19** 

### the folks who have to make the investments and **20** 

### make the changes to do the compliance and that **21** 

### seems to me like a significant point to be made **22** 

### today. Thank you.

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. Page 33**  **1** 

### MR. BROOKMAN: Okay, thank you. Final **2** 

### comments here? Steve Rosenstock. **3** 

### MR. ROSENSTOCK: Steve Rosenstock, **4** 

### EEI. I would still suggest that some **5** 

### consideration be made for newly covered products **6** 

### in terms of that deadline. Thank you. **7** 

### MR. BROOKMAN: Thank you. **8** 

### MR. DELASKI: Follow-up on Steve's **9** 

### comment. I think the folks who are commenting on **10** 

### behalf of the manufacturers can speak for **11** 

### themselves, but they are talking about **12** 

### newly-covered products so invite them to respond **13** 

### to that. **14** 

### MR. BROOKMAN: Any other -- Rob. **15** 

### MR. BOTELER: Rob Boteler, Nidec. **16** 

### Yes, I think, you know, on the newly covered **17** 

### product, the minimum that it would take us to get **18** 

### that done in some cases is going to be the 24 **19** 

### months from the final rule. **20** 

### But I think the critical thing is **21** 

### what John Malinowski mentioned, is we may have **22** 

### it ready and launched but our customer, who is

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. Page 34**  **1** 

### the OEM, then has to go through. He's a pump or **2** 

### a fan manufacturer or whatever piece of **3** 

### equipment. He may have to go through the UL **4** 

### component recognition, so we would be able to **5** 

### provide the motor, but he would not be able to **6** 

### provide the piece of equipment that he builds. **7** 

### So the U.S. economy, the U.S. end **8** 

### user would be void of that piece of equipment **9** 

### until he would work through the process through **10** 

### UL to get recognition, the component recognition **11** 

### of his product, which could be a disadvantage to **12** 

### us as a society, that we would lose out on **13** 

### equipment that would then be brought in from **14** 

### offshore or just wouldn't be available. **15** 

### MR. BROOKMAN: Dan Delaney. **16** 

### MR. DELANEY: Yes, Dan Delaney, **17** 

### Regal. Just to reiterate that fact, in the past, **18** 

### general-purpose product would be much more of a **19** 

### stock type of product, would not have as much of **20** 

### that cycle time. With a special-purpose, **21** 

### definite-purpose product coming into this **22** 

### range, you have more of an OEM product being put

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. Page 35**  **1** 

### into this. That's why we've stated the 48 months **2** 

### as Rob pointed out there. **3** 

### You know, those OEM applications **4** 

### that take that additional time, manufacturers to **5** 

### produce our component with our certification, **6** 

### now to incorporate that into OEM equipment **7** 

### certification, so. **8** 

### MR. BROOKMAN: Final comments here? **9** 

### Okay, we're moving on. **10** 

### MR. RABA: EPCA directs DOE to **11** 

### consider seven factors: economic impact on **12** 

### consumers and manufacturers, lifetime operating **13** 

### cost savings, projected energy savings, utility **14** 

### or impact on performance, any lessening of **15** 

### competition, the need for national energy **16** 

### conservation and other factors considered **17** 

### relevant by the Department Secretary, and you **18** 

### can see how the analyses for each follows those **19** 

### different factors to consider. **20** 

### So here we are, December 11th, in **21** 

### today's public meeting. The comment period for **22** 

### the proposed rule ends February 4th and

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. Page 36**  **1** 

### projected publication of the final rule is May **2** 

### 2014. DOE's proposed rule closely mirrors a **3** 

### consensus agreement between a coalition of motor **4** 

### manufacturers and energy efficiency advocates. **5** 

### The proposal, as recommended by the coalition, **6** 

### would bring many currently uncovered motors to **7** 

### NEMA's Premium levels while retaining current **8** 

### levels for other electric motors. DOE's proposal **9** 

### would set higher standards than the coalition **10** 

### recommendation for U-frame motors and would **11** 

### expand coverage to integral brake motors. **12** 

### DOE recently published or issued a **13** 

### test procedure final rule on December 6, 2013. **14** 

### The new test procedure final rule adopts **15** 

### definitions which determine the applicability **16** 

### of DOE's regulations to various types of **17** 

### electric motors and amends energy efficiency **18** 

### test procedures for electric motors to allow **19** 

### currently unregulated motors to be tested by **20** 

### clarifying the test setup and to facilitate **21** 

### testing of these types of motors. I understand **22** 

### that the rule will be published Friday the 13th.

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. Page 37**  **1** 

### Next, Brian Coffey will do the **2** 

### market and technology assessment. **3** 

### MR. BROOKMAN: Thank you. Brian, **4** 

### before you do, Roger Daugherty has a comment. **5** 

### Roger, unmute your phone and let's hope we can **6** 

### hear you in the room. **7** 

### MR. DAUGHERTY: This is Roger **8** 

### Daugherty with Baldor Electric. With respect to **9** 

### the effective date of any revised standards, I'd **10** 

### like to call the Department's attention back to **11** 

### the language as it’s stated in EPCA as amended **12** 

### by EPACT. **13** 

### The particular language that's **14** 

### under discussion states that the Secretary shall **15** 

### publish a final rule no later than 24 months **16** 

### after the effective date of the previous final **17** 

### rule to determine whether to amend the standards **18** 

### in effect for such product. Any such amendment **19** 

### shall apply to electric motors manufactured **20** 

### after a date which is five years after the **21** 

### effective date of the previous amendment. **22** 

### When I look through Tables 1 through

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. Page 38**  **1** 

### 8 of the standards that are proposed at the end **2** 

### of the NOPR, the only standards that I find that **3** 

### are being amended are those standards for **4** 

### general-purpose electric motors of Subtype II **5** 

### and certain NEMA Design B motors graded greater **6** 

### than 200 horsepower and up to 500 horsepower. **7** 

### It would appear that the language as **8** 

### stated in EPCA does not apply to when standards **9** 

### are established for newly covered products, only **10** 

### those standards that have been amended by the **11** 

### rule. Thank you. **12** 

### MR. BROOKMAN: Thank you, Roger. **13** 

### Brian Coffey. **14** 

### MR. COFFEY: Good morning, everyone. **15** 

### I'm Brian Coffey with Navigant and I'm here to **16** 

### discuss DOE's market and technology assessment **17** 

### and engineering analysis before turning the **18** 

### floor over to Sanaee Iyama of Lawrence Berkeley **19** 

### National Laboratory to cover some of the **20** 

### downstream analyses. **21** 

### I think some of you noticed we just **22** 

### had a test procedure slide up front. That was

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. Page 39**  **1** 

### originally later in the presentation, so we'll **2** 

### just skip it when we come to it, having addressed **3** 

### it here at the outset. **4** 

### I did also want to mention, we have **5** 

### a schedule here and the comment period for this **6** 

### notice ends on February 4th of 2014 and so that's **7** 

### pretty soon, as you can see, relative to the **8** 

### projected final rule publication date. **9** 

### Of course, DOE considers all **10** 

### comments received but in light of the compressed **11** 

### schedule, I think that the earlier they're the **12** 

### submitted, the more time DOE would have to **13** 

### consider them. **14** 

### So that brings us to the market and **15** 

### technology assessment. Here's a map of where the **16** 

### market and technology assessment fits **17** 

### conceptually with the other NOPR analyses. Along **18** 

### with the screening analysis, it's an input to the **19** 

### engineering. The purpose of the market and **20** 

### technology assessment is to characterize the **21** 

### market and industry, define scope of coverage **22** 

### for standards, identify technology options for

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. Page 40**  **1** 

### improving efficiency and establishing equipment **2** 

### classes, which are groups of motors that receive **3** 

### the same standard level. **4** 

### Here's how the market and technology **5** 

### assessment interfaces with the screening and **6** 

### engineering analyses. It generates equipment **7** 

### classes used in the engineering and technology **8** 

### options which go to the engineering analysis as **9** 

### design options after meeting the screening **10** 

### criteria. **11** 

### Here's a quick look at current **12** 

### standards for electric motors which became **13** 

### effective in 2010. General-purpose Subtype I are **14** 

### already at NEMA Premium and everything else in **15** 

### this table is at MG 1 Table 12-11. **16** 

### For scope of coverage, DOE is **17** 

### proposing an entirely new vocabulary from that **18** 

### of those standards which are in effect today. I **19** 

### think most people in the room know this, but **20** 

### instead of terms such as special- and **21** 

### definite-purpose, DOE is proposing that motors **22** 

### be subject to coverage if they meet the following

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. Page 41**  **1** 

### nine criteria and are not specifically excluded, **2** 

### so a little bit different method of **3** 

### categorization. **4** 

### I'll read them just because I think **5** 

### these are important. It's a single-speed **6** 

### induction motor. It's rated for continuous duty **7** 

### or duty type S1, contains a squirrel-cage or a **8** 

### cage rotor, operates on polyphase alternating **9** 

### current 60-hertz sinusoidal line power, has a **10** 

### 2-, 4-, 6- or 8-pole configuration, is rated 600 **11** 

### volts or less, has a three-digit NEMA frame size **12** 

### or IEC equivalent or an enclosed 56 NEMA frame **13** 

### size or IEC metric equivalent, has no more than **14** 

### 500 horsepower but greater than or equal to one **15** 

### horsepower and meets all the performance **16** 

### requirements of a NEMA Design A, B or C electric **17** 

### motor or an IEC Design N or H. **18** 

### So these nine criteria are kind of **19** 

### the gatekeepers for what would be considered in **20** 

### scope. **21** 

### MR. BROOKMAN: Steve. **22** 

### MR. RUFFING: Steve Ruffing speaking

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. Page 42**  **1** 

### on behalf of NEMA. With regard to the frame size **2** 

### designation, I believe in some cases there may **3** 

### not be a one-to-one correspondence between NEMA **4** 

### frame sizes and IEC metric equivalents, so it may **5** 

### be helpful to add an additional clause including **6** 

### IEC frame sizes that fall between two NEMA frame **7** 

### sizes. **8** 

### MR. BROOKMAN: Okay, thank you. John **9** 

### Malinowski. **10** 

### MR. MALINOWSKI: Yes, do we want to **11** 

### talk about these seven now or do you want to **12** 

### postpone those and talk later? **13** 

### MR. BROOKMAN: Do the expanded now **14** 

### or, is now the time or should -- **15** 

### MR. COFFEY: These criteria? Yes, we **16** 

### can certainly discuss them. **17** 

### MR. MALINOWSKI: I mean, it's Issue **18** 

### 30, kind of down the road. **19** 

### MR. COFFEY: Yes. **20** 

### MR. MALINOWSKI: Okay. John **21** 

### Malinowski. I guess I'm speaking on behalf of **22** 

### NEMA in this respect.

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. Page 43**  **1** 

### If our intent is to expand the scope **2** 

### of coverage up through 500 horsepower and **3** 

### include 6- and 8-pole motors, those motors are **4** 

### larger than NEMA three-digit frames. And in our **5** 

### tables within MG 1, there's a table that **6** 

### describes them as three- or four-digit NEMA **7** 

### frame sizes. They may be 5810s or 6809s or 5010s, **8** 

### so they're larger than the 440 frame cap that **9** 

### we've used in the past, so that part here needs **10** 

### to be amended. **11** 

### And as Steve said, in your test final **12** 

### rule, there was a clause that talked about IEC **13** 

### frames and Roger can probably hear in and add the **14** 

### exact verbiage. There was a correct statement **15** 

### within the test final rule that explained that **16** 

### about IEC frames, including frames in between **17** 

### normal frames. What we needed to do is have some **18** 

### verbiage that would include the IEC 100 frame **19** 

### which today is exempted, so our intent was to **20** 

### include that as well. **21** 

### The other last point there is NEMA **22** 

### Designs A, B and C and Designs N and H for IEC,

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. Page 44**  **1** 

### it's a common practice within the IEC that they **2** 

### don't necessarily stamp the motor design on the **3** 

### motor, particularly in the larger sizes. So we **4** 

### need to have some verbiage that would still **5** 

### include that motor up through 500 horsepower or **6** 

### equivalent kilowatt rating. **7** 

### MR. BROOKMAN: Doug. **8** 

### MR. RAWALD: And John, this is Doug **9** 

### Rawald from Department of Energy's Office of **10** 

### General Counsel. Can I just ask you to clarify **11** 

### the point regarding the four-digit frame series? **12** 

### Are you saying that we should amend that criteria **13** 

### that says has a three-digit NEMA frame size to **14** 

### also say a NEMA three- or four-digit frame size? **15** 

### MR. MALINOWSKI: Yes. **16** 

### MR. RAWALD: Okay. **17** 

### MR. BROOKMAN: As I read through **18** 

### these characteristics, I was thinking that they **19** 

### were kind of descriptive and illustrative but **20** 

### not necessarily fully specific. And so I was **21** 

### thinking that those good comments, to have those **22** 

### specific and extensive comments in writing would

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. Page 45**  **1** 

### be especially helpful to the Department. Alex. **2** 

### MR. BOESENBERG: Alex Boesenberg, **3** 

### NEMA. I'll give my usual statement. We will -- **4** 

### MR. BROOKMAN: Thank you. **5** 

### MR. BOESENBERG: -- give further **6** 

### detail in our written comments on that. **7** 

### MR. BROOKMAN: Thank you, and several **8** 

### individuals approached me this morning and said **9** 

### we're going to be submitting a lot of comments, **10** 

### detailed written comments, and so some of our **11** 

### comments during the meeting today will be kind **12** 

### of short, noting that full written comments are **13** 

### in the offing. Rob. **14** 

### MR. BOTELER: Rob Boteler, Nidec. If **15** 

### you go back to the charts in the Advanced NOPR, **16** 

### it's Chart Number IV, and you look at the higher **17** 

### horsepower, you'll see those ratings that aren't **18** 

### covered today and those are the ratings that are **19** 

### what John mentioned. They're above the current **20** 

### three-digit frame size, so those are the ones **21** 

### that would need to be added. **22** 

### MR. BROOKMAN: And, Alex, you had a

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. Page 46**  **1** 

### follow-on. **2** 

### MR. BOESENBERG: Yes. Alex **3** 

### Boesenberg, NEMA. I want to, I guess, reassure **4** 

### the Department that I think the vast majority of **5** 

### the comments that I have started gathering are **6** 

### ones sort of like John already mentioned. We'll **7** 

### make some more comments again later today on **8** 

### definitions. **9** 

### What we're hoping to do or what we **10** 

### need to accomplish with this, as John's example **11** 

### illustrated, was clarify and alleviate any **12** 

### potential for misunderstanding. You know, the **13** 

### fact that there's just a couple frame sizes in **14** 

### the four-digit, we want to make sure we can **15** 

### squeeze that in there so that it doesn't become **16** 

### a loophole later. And we'll have a similar **17** 

### discussion when we get back to the definitions **18** 

### due to the fact that a lot of the definitions as **19** 

### we submitted them were kind of truncated in the **20** 

### NOPR. **21** 

### And that's something I'll go into **22** 

### detail in, more in our written comments, but our

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. Page 47**  **1** 

### previous written comments were kind of **2** 

### excruciatingly long already. I'm not sure how **3** 

### much more information I can give. I want to **4** 

### reassure the Department, the reason why we **5** 

### suggested things like that is because while **6** 

### everyone at this table is very familiar with the **7** 

### subject we're especially concerned about people **8** 

### who haven't been following it day to day. **9** 

### It's the same vein as what Neal said **10** 

### about trying to make the final rule a one-stop **11** 

### shopping for all the stuff that's been put out **12** 

### in the different -- the test rule has definitions **13** 

### in it which usually is in the standards rule, **14** 

### things like that. We're trying to eliminate the **15** 

### confusion for the people who haven't been **16** 

### following it. **17** 

### And also we're concerned about, **18** 

### again, offshore suppliers and things like that **19** 

### who don't look at it until it's time to fill out **20** 

### the forms to shove the stuff on a boat and want **21** 

### to make sure it's as clear as can be. **22** 

### MR. BROOKMAN: Okay, thank you. Steve

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. Page 48**  **1** 

### Ruffing. **2** 

### MR. RUFFING: Steve Ruffing speaking **3** 

### on behalf of NEMA. Alex indicated that we will **4** 

### provide detailed written comments. There's one **5** 

### additional point of potential conflict or **6** 

### confusion that I think I can cover succinctly **7** 

### here, relatively quickly and that relates to the **8** 

### larger ratings that Rob and John mentioned. **9** 

### If you look in the proposed language **10** 

### for Part 431 in the NOPR, the Table 4, that shows **11** 

### the present standards for the Type 1. Obviously **12** 

### it doesn't include ratings up to 500 horsepower **13** 

### for some poles, eight and six in particular, **14** 

### whereas the new proposed Tables 5 through 7 do **15** 

### and that would be consistent with the **16** 

### second-to-last point on there up to 500 **17** 

### horsepower. **18** 

### So these ratings that I've talked **19** 

### about, potentially four-digit frame numbers, **20** 

### those ratings, the ones that are not presently **21** 

### in Table 4 but which are in the new proposed **22** 

### Tables 5 through 7, do not have a NEMA Design

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. Page 49**  **1** 

### letter defined for them, so they would not fall **2** 

### under that last criteria that's listed where **3** 

### they must be NEMA Design A, B or C. **4** 

### MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. **5** 

### MR. RUFFING: And that's because in **6** 

### NEMA MG 1, they're classified as large motors as **7** 

### opposed to medium motors and large motors do not **8** 

### have the NEMA Design letter definition. **9** 

### MR. BROOKMAN: Okay, thank you. Doug. **10** 

### MR. RAWALD: Steve, to follow up on **11** 

### that, this is Doug Rawald again, Department of **12** 

### Energy. So would you want us to amend the ninth **13** 

### criteria to somehow incorporate that term of **14** 

### large-scope motors? How would you want us to **15** 

### address that issue? **16** 

### MR. RUFFING: Well, there's two ways **17** 

### to do it. One would be to simply in the Tables **18** 

### 5 through 7, to continue to exclude those **19** 

### ratings. That would be one viable option, the **20** 

### other alternative, if the decision was made, to **21** 

### include those ratings. **22** 

### I think this is something we should

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. Page 50**  **1** 

### probably address in our written comments, how to **2** 

### particularly define that. I have an idea about **3** 

### that but I want to make sure we have consensus **4** 

### on that. **5** 

### MR. BROOKMAN: Okay, yes. Any final **6** 

### comments on this subject? Okay, Brian. **7** 

### MR. COFFEY: So here are the motors **8** 

### for which DOE is proposing standards that may not **9** 

### currently be subject to standards. These would **10** 

### be covered under DOE's proposal if they met up **11** 

### to nine criteria listed under the previous **12** 

### slide. **13** 

### So coverage is not being specified **14** 

### in these terms, but these are just examples of **15** 

### things that may not have been previously covered **16** 

### that may be in the future. **17** 

### I will also note, as has been noted **18** 

### already, that the recently issued test procedure **19** 

### final rule tweaked some of these definitions a **20** 

### bit, for example combining integral and **21** 

### non-integral brake motors into just brake **22** 

### electric motors, but the effect of coverage

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. Page 51**  **1** 

### doesn't change. **2** 

### MR. BROOKMAN: Steve Rosenstock. **3** 

### MR. ROSENSTOCK: Steve Rosenstock, **4** 

### Edison Electric Institute. Just a quick **5** 

### follow-on, does this mean that, well again, with **6** 

### the eight tables in the NOPR, do those eight **7** 

### tables cover all of these products that are **8** 

### listed here? **9** 

### MR. COFFEY: Yes, they do. So nowhere **10** 

### will you see in the CFR that electric motors with **11** 

### special shafts are subject to these standards. **12** 

### It's not outlined in those terms. These are just **13** 

### for clarification when someone says, okay, well, **14** 

### these weren't covered before. Are they covered **15** 

### now? Anything that you see here could **16** 

### potentially now be covered under the newly **17** 

### proposed standards. **18** 

### MR. ROSENSTOCK: And, again, you'll **19** 

### have to forgive me. I'm not a motors expert. What **20** 

### is meant by a partial electric motor? I'm not **21** 

### familiar with that term. Sorry. **22** 

### MR. COFFEY: There's a definition of

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. Page 52**  **1** 

### it. I don't have it in memory, but essentially **2** 

### it's a motor that arrives without an end shield **3** 

### and bearing. So you need to add some parts to it **4** 

### in order to create an operable electric motor. **5** 

### MR. BROOKMAN: Doug. **6** 

### MR. COFFEY: Yes, maybe someone has **7** 

### the definition. Doug. **8** 

### MR. RAWALD: And just to refer those **9** 

### who are going to make written comments on that, **10** 

### the partial electric motor definition will be **11** 

### included in the notice that'll be out this Friday **12** 

### on the final rule for the test procedure **13** 

### regarding electric motors. **14** 

### MR. DELASKI: I also would add it was **15** 

### defined -- **16** 

### MR. BROOKMAN: Andrew deLaski. **17** 

### MR. deLASKI: It also was defined in **18** 

### the NOPR for the test method published many, many **19** 

### months ago. **20** 

### MR. BROOKMAN: Okay, thank you. **21** 

### Additional comments on these listed motor types, **22** 

### electric motor types? We have comment boxes. Do

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. Page 53**  **1** 

### you wish to cue those? I think we're in the **2** 

### process of covering them. **3** 

### MR. COFFEY: So I did one slide as a **4** 

### counterpoint to what we just saw. **5** 

### MR. BROOKMAN: Oh, please. **6** 

### MR. COFFEY: Here are the motor types **7** 

### for which DOE is not proposing standards in **8** 

### today's NOPR. There are five of them. **9** 

### MR. BROOKMAN: That's useful. **10** 

### MS. IYAMA: Those are not in here **11** 

### then. **12** 

### MR. BROOKMAN: Yes. **13** 

### MR. COFFEY: Yes, those are not in the **14** 

### packet, so this is one I wanted to add because **15** 

### I thought it fit well after what we just saw. **16** 

### MR. BROOKMAN: Yes. So let's leave it **17** 

### up there. Everybody can take a peak. Motors that **18** 

### are not covered. Hang on. **19** 

### MR. COFFEY: And, yes. I do have in **20** 

### backup slides the full definitions of these **21** 

### terms. **22** 

### MR. BROOKMAN: Steve Ruffing.

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. Page 54**  **1** 

### MR. RUFFING: Steve Ruffing, Nidec **2** 

### Motor Corporation. There was one comment made in **3** 

### the NOPR related to air-over motors that I was **4** 

### hoping for a little clarification on. **5** 

### It notes that these motor types are **6** 

### excluded but then it makes an additional **7** 

### statement about air-over motors that I was **8** 

### curious about. **9** 

### It says, "In addition, DOE is **10** 

### proposing not to set standards at this time for **11** 

### air-over motors, but intends to address these **12** 

### types of motors in a separate rulemaking." I just **13** 

### wanted to inquire what was meant by that. **14** 

### MR. BROOKMAN: Doug. **15** 

### MR. RAWALD: And, Steve, once again **16** 

### if you refer to the final rule, preamble in that, **17** 

### also discuss that similar point, that the **18** 

### Department's going to continue to look at the **19** 

### possibility of testing those types of motors in **20** 

### the future. **21** 

### And if a test procedure becomes **22** 

### available, we would then possibly consider or

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. Page 55**  **1** 

### discuss going down the path of developing **2** 

### standards for those types of motors. **3** 

### MR. BROOKMAN: Okay, I guess we're **4** 

### ready to move on. **5** 

### MR. COFFEY: Great. So now we have **6** 

### those requests for comment, Doug, that you **7** 

### mentioned. **8** 

### MR. BROOKMAN: Pardon me. One of our **9** 

### webinar participants has a question. This is **10** 

### from Tuan Ngo or No. "Is pool pump motors subject **11** 

### to the proposed standard?" **12** 

### MALE PARTICIPANT: No. **13** 

### MR. COFFEY: So coverage isn't listed **14** 

### in those terms. They could be covered if they met **15** 

### all the criteria for coverage as listed. **16** 

### However, it's also DOE's **17** 

### understanding that many pool pump motors have **18** 

### additional features which would exclude them **19** 

### from coverage. **20** 

### MR. BROOKMAN: Gary Fernstrom. **21** 

### MR. FERNSTROM: So this is Gary **22** 

### Fernstrom on behalf of the California IOUs. This

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. Page 56**  **1** 

### has been an issue for us and the California **2** 

### Energy Commission as the CEC regulates **3** 

### residential filtration, pool pumps and motors as **4** 

### well as pool pump motors. **5** 

### These products are typically **6** 

### single-phase; therefore, they do not meet the **7** 

### three-phase requirement. The variable-speed **8** 

### versions are inverter fed; therefore, they do **9** 

### not meet the requirements. **10** 

### So in general, the type of pool pumps **11** 

### which California are regulating which are **12** 

### single-phase, one- to five-horsepower are not **13** 

### subject to this rulemaking. **14** 

### MR. BROOKMAN: Okay, thank you. Steve **15** 

### Rosenstock. **16** 

### MR. ROSENSTOCK: Steve Rosenstock, **17** 

### EEI. I know that there was a separate small **18** 

### electric motor rule that was finalized in April **19** 

### 2010. It goes in effect April 2015. Didn't that **20** 

### one cover, I know it covered some of the PSC **21** 

### motors in the, I think, didn't that cover some **22** 

### of the single-phase motors as well?

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. Page 57**  **1** 

### MALE PARTICIPANT: Not PSCs. **2** 

### MR. ROSENSTOCK: Not PSCs? I'm just **3** 

### wondering, did pool pumps fall into that **4** 

### category of -- **5** 

### MR. BROOKMAN: I see Rob. Please, **6** 

### Rob. **7** 

### MR. BOTELER: Yes, the small motor **8** 

### rule covers general purpose open drip-proof **9** 

### motors and it does cover cap start/cap run and **10** 

### cap start/induction run but it doesn't cover **11** 

### variable speed ECMs. So to Gary's point, they're **12** 

### not covered, no. **13** 

### MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Gary, you want **14** 

### to follow on? **15** 

### MR. FERNSTROM: Excuse me. Yes, I'd **16** 

### like to ask for a clarification from Rob now. The **17** 

### California Energy Commission regulations do **18** 

### affect cap start/induction run permanent split **19** 

### capacitor and cap start/cap run in that there is **20** 

### a design regulation covering those single-phase **21** 

### motors in a range up to five horsepower. So going **22** 

### back to Steve's point, does that prior rule

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. Page 58**  **1** 

### create a conflict or no? **2** 

### MR. BOTELER: This is Rob. I would **3** 

### have to defer that one to the lawyers from the **4** 

### Department that are sitting at the table. I can't **5** 

### answer that one. **6** 

### MR. FERNSTROM: Okay, well, we would **7** 

### collectively then, including Tuan from the CEC, **8** 

### ask for a clarification on this because it may, **9** 

### with regard to that prior rule, still represent **10** 

### a point of confusion. **11** 

### MR. BROOKMAN: Doug. **12** 

### MR. RAWALD: So the procedure for **13** 

### currently in place rulemaking that we follow is **14** 

### to request guidance from the public in writing **15** 

### so we could then research and give you a good **16** 

### answer. **17** 

### So if you want to submit that to us, **18** 

### you can and we could provide you the email **19** 

### address outside the meeting here to do that and **20** 

### we could consider that and then get back to you. **21** 

### MR. FERNSTROM: Okay, thanks so much. **22** 

### MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. So now we're

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. Page 59**  **1** 

### moving on. **2** 

### MR. COFFEY: So yes, now we have our **3** 

### request for comment. DOE seeks data on any other **4** 

### subsets of 56-frame motors so these have overlap **5** 

### with possibly the small motors rule, **6** 

### particularly those motors that are, one, **7** 

### enclosed general purpose electric motors that **8** 

### have a rating of under one horsepower and, two, **9** 

### open or special, definite purpose inclusive **10** 

### electric motors. **11** 

### The types of data that DOE seeks **12** 

### includes, but is not limited to the following **13** 

### categories, efficiency distribution, shipment **14** 

### breakdown between horsepower ratings, open and **15** 

### enclosed motors and between general, special and **16** 

### definite purpose motors as well as typical **17** 

### applications that use these motors. **18** 

### MR. BROOKMAN: Rob. **19** 

### MR. BOTELER: Yes, Rob Boteler **20** 

### speaking on behalf of NEMA. I think NEMA is not **21** 

### in a particularly good position to give you **22** 

### information on this in the future. Today we don't

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. Page 60**  **1** 

### collect a lot of this data. **2** 

### But one of the issues that we have **3** 

### is going back to the small motor regulations is **4** 

### some of the definitions are not clear to us and **5** 

### we've asked for some of those definitions to be **6** 

### clarified on the small motor that are currently **7** 

### covered. **8** 

### And I think before we would be able **9** 

### to address anything going forward on, you know, **10** 

### 56-frame and enclosed or open, definite/special **11** 

### purpose, we would need to have clear definitions **12** 

### from the Department of what really we're looking **13** 

### at in terms of the definition of an electric **14** 

### motor. **15** 

### Our standards are not as concise, **16** 

### perhaps, as you might think they would be **17** 

### compared to what we talk about on the medium **18** 

### motors and we need to address that with DOE **19** 

### before we could help out. **20** 

### MR. BROOKMAN: Okay, thank you. Dan **21** 

### Delaney. **22** 

### MR. DELANEY: Yes, Dan Delaney on

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. Page 61**  **1** 

### behalf of NEMA as well. Just to clarify again, **2** 

### the 56-frame product as we get into a two-digit **3** 

### frame does take us into a little bit more of a **4** 

### realm of an OEM-specific type product. **5** 

### So there are kind of two realms of **6** 

### that product, a distribution type style product **7** 

### which we feel is covered within this rule and **8** 

### then as you get into special and definite **9** 

### purpose, which this rule does get into with **10** 

### enclosed one horsepower and greater, that **11** 

### product on the OEM side does not follow the same **12** 

### type of, you know, we'll say designs today. **13** 

### The OEM specific is built, you know, **14** 

### for that customer's application for the torque, **15** 

### for the speeds, and is not built around typically **16** 

### efficiency as one of the criteria. **17** 

### So that's something else to note in **18** 

### the respect we do not have data as an **19** 

### organization but another reason where confusion **20** 

### begins obviously at the one horsepower and **21** 

### greater as well as the below one horsepower which **22** 

### we've been seeking clarification on, both with

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. Page 62**  **1** 

### this current rule, so. **2** 

### MR. BROOKMAN: Yes, Dale Basso. **3** 

### MR. BASSO: Dale Basso, WEG Electric. **4** 

### I guess one question we sort of also have is this **5** 

### question is asking about motors below one **6** 

### horsepower but our understanding is that this **7** 

### regulation specifically listed that as one **8** 

### horsepower and above. So is that something we **9** 

### should ignore at this point or are you trying to **10** 

### expand this regulation? **11** 

### MR. COFFEY: Well, it sounds as **12** 

### though people are commenting on some terms that **13** 

### have been defined in maybe the small motors rule **14** 

### and some other rulemakings. I think Doug **15** 

### mentioned that there's always the opportunity to **16** 

### request some guidance which DOE may then **17** 

### consider and respond to. **18** 

### MR. BASSO: I'm not sure I understood **19** 

### that. **20** 

### MR. RAWALD: Dale, this is Doug **21** 

### Rawald from DOE. So once again, one of the nine **22** 

### criteria would be the rule applies to motors that

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. Page 63**  **1** 

### are more or at least one horsepower, so that's **2** 

### not the intent of this question. **3** 

### But the 56-frame are a different **4** 

### animal than the other types of motors so we want **5** 

### to have data from you folks so we could better **6** 

### make sure the rule meets those particular **7** 

### situations. Does that make sense? We're not **8** 

### seeking to expand the scope beyond the nine **9** 

### criteria about this question. **10** 

### MR. BASSO: You want data below one **11** 

### horsepower? **12** 

### MR. BROOKMAN: Microphone. **13** 

### MR. BASSO: This is Dale Basso. **14** 

### You're requesting data below one horsepower? **15** 

### MR. RAWALD: Unique to the 56-frame **16** 

### because the 56-frame, as I said, a different type **17** 

### of motor than the average motors that we're **18** 

### dealing with and has been subject of a lot of **19** 

### discussions in the past rulemakings. **20** 

### MR. BROOKMAN: You all set? Okay. Are **21** 

### there still comments here, this issue? Did you **22** 

### set them both up, Brian, for us?

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. Page 64**  **1** 

### MR. COFFEY: So I haven't read the **2** 

### second, although we've certainly heard some **3** 

### comments on it already. **4** 

### MR. BROOKMAN: Right. **5** 

### MR. COFFEY: DOE's requesting **6** 

### comment on the nine characteristics of electric **7** 

### motors and their appropriateness for outlining **8** 

### scope of standards. **9** 

### MR. BROOKMAN: Any additional **10** 

### comments here? Because we're about to move on. **11** 

### Roger Daugherty, please make your **12** 

### comment. **13** 

### MR. DAUGHERTY: Roger Daugherty. I **14** 

### had a follow-up question on something that I **15** 

### heard from the presenter in response to the **16** 

### question about pool pump motors. I believe what **17** 

### I heard was that there may be some other **18** 

### characteristics of those motors which would **19** 

### exempt them. **20** 

### In trying to look at the proposed **21** 

### language that goes into Part 431 at the end of **22** 

### the NOPR, I can't find anything that would

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. Page 65**  **1** 

### indicate that some other characteristic other **2** 

### than the nine that are listed would be used for **3** 

### making a determination as to whether or not **4** 

### something's a covered product. Could you please **5** 

### expand on that comment? **6** 

### MR. COFFEY: Yes, I can clarify. Gary **7** 

### mentioned, for example, that many of these pool **8** 

### pump motors would be single phase, and so by **9** 

### virtue of that, they would not be considered **10** 

### covered under this particular rulemaking. **11** 

### But I only mention that to clarify **12** 

### that a motor meeting these nine criteria would **13** 

### not be excluded solely by virtue of being used **14** 

### in a pool pump. **15** 

### MR. BROOKMAN: Doug. **16** 

### MR. RAWALD: And this is Doug Rawald. **17** 

### So, Roger, I think what you're referring to, as **18** 

### Brian said, there are additional features to the **19** 

### pool pump motors that put them outside of this. **20** 

### And what he meant by that simply were **21** 

### there are additional features that would make **22** 

### them not meet the nine criteria. He was not

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. Page 66**  **1** 

### articulating that there are actually exceptions **2** 

### beyond the nine criteria that we established. **3** 

### MR. BROOKMAN: Okay, thank you. So **4** 

### then this test procedure modification slide, we **5** 

### already saw that. Are there any comments on -- **6** 

### go to Slide 26. **7** 

### MR. ROSENSTOCK: Doug. **8** 

### MR. BROOKMAN: Oh, yes, Steve. **9** 

### MR. ROSENSTOCK: Steve Rosenstock. I **10** 

### hate to do this but because of the feedback, I **11** 

### might want to ask people in the room to turn off **12** 

### their electronic devices because I know when I'm **13** 

### in public speaking they always tell me to turn **14** 

### off my device before I move near a microphone. **15** 

### MR. BROOKMAN: Well, we could try it. **16** 

### See if that helps. We've got a guy here working **17** 

### on it so hopefully we'll gain some ground. **18** 

### And I'm going to suggest in a little **19** 

### bit we're about to take a break and maybe he can **20** 

### make some headway during our break. But maybe we **21** 

### could try that. Just actually turn off the **22** 

### devices. Maybe that'll make a difference.

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. Page 67**  **1** 

### We'll try it. Maybe it'll work. **2** 

### Okay, so and apologies for everyone in the room **3** 

### and also online for all this feedback here. We're **4** 

### working on it and hopefully our A/V guys can do **5** 

### some good here. **6** 

### This test procedure modification **7** 

### slide was, I guess, the first -- **8** 

### MR. COFFEY: Yes, so we already saw **9** 

### the test procedure slide. It was transplanted to **10** 

### earlier. **11** 

### MR. BROOKMAN: And no one had any **12** 

### comments on the test procedure modifications **13** 

### slide at that point. Okay, so we are moving on **14** 

### then. **15** 

### MR. COFFEY: Okay, so that bring us **16** 

### to equipment classes and groups. Once scope is **17** 

### established, DOE divides covered equipment into **18** 

### classes by type of energy used, the capacity of **19** 

### the equipment or other performance-related **20** 

### features that justify different standard levels **21** 

### such as features affecting consumer utility. **22** 

### For this rulemaking, equipment

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. Page 68**  **1** 

### classes are based on the combination of NEMA **2** 

### design type, brakes and fire pump rating, **3** 

### horsepower rating, pole configuration and **4** 

### enclosure type. **5** 

### So an equipment class group is a **6** 

### collection of, yes, motors with the same design **7** 

### type. So even though there may be a large number **8** 

### of standards within an equipment class group **9** 

### based on horsepower, number of poles and whether **10** 

### the motor is open or enclosed, each equipment **11** 

### class group is held to the same, you know, NEMA **12** 

### band, the same table within MG 1. **13** 

### So DOE created equipment class **14** 

### groups, as I think most people know, as follows. **15** 

### It's NEMA Design A or B in Equipment Class Group **16** 

### 1, NEMA Design C in Equipment Class Group 2 and **17** 

### their IEC equivalents, fire pump motors in **18** 

### Equipment Class Group 3 and electric motors with **19** 

### brakes in Equipment Class Group 4, so those **20** 

### haven't changed. **21** 

### Here, again, is a summary of DOE's **22** 

### equipment class structure. There are four

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. Page 69**  **1** 

### groups, as I just mentioned, and within a group **2** 

### standards vary by horsepower, pole count and **3** 

### enclosure type, so just a little bit more detail **4** 

### on what we just saw. **5** 

### Request for comments on all that. **6** 

### DOE seeks comments on its decision to analyze **7** 

### brake motors in a separate equipment class **8** 

### group. **9** 

### And then Issue 15, DOE seeks comment **10** 

### on its decision to limit standards for brake **11** 

### motors to one to 30 horsepower and to 4-, 6- and **12** 

### 8-pole configurations. **13** 

### DOE selected these ratings after **14** 

### reviewing manufacturer catalogs and finding **15** 

### brake motors in only these configurations. **16** 

### MR. BROOKMAN: John Malinowski. **17** 

### MR. MALINOWSKI: Yes, John **18** 

### Malinowski. I'm going to put my NEMA hat on for **19** 

### this one. **20** 

### I think I've got really two **21** 

### questions here. We skipped over earlier the idea **22** 

### that the DOE NOPR included U-frame motors along

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. Page 70**  **1** 

### with T-frame motors and raised the efficiency **2** 

### requirements from Table 12-11 to Table 12-12. I **3** 

### didn't see that included in anything here. **4** 

### The petition put forth by the **5** 

### coalition proposed that U-frames remain as Table **6** 

### 12-11. So, in essence, they would be in Equipment **7** 

### Class Group 3 and be the same horsepower ratings **8** 

### as, well, I'm sorry. They would be one to 200 **9** 

### horsepower at Table 12-11. Certainly they could **10** 

### go higher in horsepower. **11** 

### If the DOE would have looked at the **12** 

### U-frames separately from T-frames and looked at **13** 

### the financial impact of redesigning those **14** 

### motors, very small sales in those. **15** 

### The cost to redesign those and the **16** 

### effort to redesign a product line that's on its **17** 

### way out is probably unjustified in NEMA's eyes. **18** 

### We still would strongly recommend that the DOE **19** 

### reconsider moving those to Table 12-11. **20** 

### Also with regard to brake motors, I **21** 

### think you've captured most standard stock **22** 

### available brake motors, certainly are in the one

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. Page 71**  **1** 

### to 30 horsepower range. **2** 

### Most manufacturers offer larger **3** 

### motors but generally in those cases many **4** 

### applications are such that they are Design D or **5** 

### intermittent-duty motors for cranes and hoists **6** 

### and they would be out of the scope of coverage. **7** 

### MR. COFFEY: So in your opinion this **8** 

### is sufficient as written? **9** 

### MR. MALINOWSKI: Yes. **10** 

### MR. COFFEY: Thank you. **11** 

### MR. BROOKMAN: Thank you, John. Yes, **12** 

### Bill. **13** 

### MR. FINLEY: Bill Finley. I believe **14** 

### I'm speaking for NEMA here too. As far as **15** 

### Equipment Class 1, NEMA will comment back on how **16** 

### to maybe word that that includes other products **17** 

### that don't have an A and a B as we talked about **18** 

### earlier, that are not defined for the product. **19** 

### The larger ratings, assuming we **20** 

### intend on going up to 500 horsepower and the **21** 

### slower speeds, we'll come back with a proposed **22** 

### comment from NEMA.

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. Page 72**  **1** 

### MR. BROOKMAN: Okay, thank you. Yes, **2** 

### Dale Basso. **3** 

### MR. BASSO: Dale Basso, WEG. Just a **4** 

### little more on the brake motor issue. I guess I'm **5** 

### not sure the reason for breaking them into a **6** 

### different class unless you're going to put a **7** 

### different energy value or efficiency value on **8** 

### those. **9** 

### So in the test standard, you were **10** 

### talking about the test you did said that there **11** 

### was no significant difference and you were **12** 

### keeping the same test procedure. **13** 

### You know, potentially there's a **14** 

### slight friction and windage adder that you'd **15** 

### like to say you got to take into account when **16** 

### you've got a brake on a motor. **17** 

### But if you're not going to set a **18** 

### different level of efficiency, then breaking **19** 

### them out actually adds a category you don't need. **20** 

### The other part of that is the larger **21** 

### brake motors do exist, but they're really just **22** 

### a motor with a brake. And so I really would be

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. Page 73**  **1** 

### careful that people don't take exception, you **2** 

### know, see that as, oh, they're only covered up **3** 

### to 30 horsepower and then say that they don't **4** 

### have to have the efficiency on the bigger ones. **5** 

### It's a really small market. I mean, **6** 

### there's not really an energy picture. As John **7** 

### said, most of them are special and most of them **8** 

### probably won't fall under the regulations for **9** 

### other reasons. **10** 

### But if they did, you're just **11** 

### creating a loophole that's not really necessary, **12** 

### so I guess I'd just ask why you created the **13** 

### additional category. **14** 

### MR. BROOKMAN: Doug first. **15** 

### MR. RAWALD: Dale, I'm not going to **16** 

### answer your question. I think it's a good **17** 

### question for us to consider. **18** 

### But what I want to ask you to do in **19** 

### your written comments if you could, to help us, **20** 

### is come up with ways that would be better for us **21** 

### to enforce motors that are with a brake added so **22** 

### that they would not be able to fit in that

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. Page 74**  **1 loophole because that is going to be helpful to**  **2 us as we're trying to do this over time. Thank**  **3 you.**  **4 MR. BROOKMAN: Andrew.**  **5 MR. DELASKI: I'll just follow on and**  **6 concur with Dale. It just seems to me that if it's**  **7 the same standard, you don't need a separate**  **8 class and that you wouldn't -- there probably are**  **9 other motors that are covered that have most of**  **10 their market share in some horsepower range,**  **11 right, but we aren't limiting those motors based**  **12 on horsepower range, right, it's put in the 500**  **13 horsepower range.**  **14 And I just think that that's a layer**  **15 of complexity that set the ceiling for a**  **16 particular class that could result in**  **17 misunderstandings like Dale just described,**  **18 someone thinks they're out of scope when they're**  **19 in scope. It would just seem to me it's the same**  **20 level. You don't need a separate class when it's**  **21 one to 500 horsepower.**  **22 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Yes, Dale.** 

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. Page 75**  **1** 

### MR. BASSO: Dale Basso. From our **2** 

### perspective as manufacturers, you know, **3** 

### electrical design-wise, you know, if it's just **4** 

### a standard motor with a brake, you know, we want **5** 

### to use the same standard electrical design. **6** 

### We don't want to have to create a **7** 

### special one to maybe take into account a few **8** 

### extra watt losses or something, so we need to be **9** 

### able to consider the exclusion of the brake **10** 

### losses in the criteria. **11** 

### But other than that, you know, **12** 

### unless it's a special electrical design which **13** 

### falls outside this anyhow, you would struggle **14** 

### with the reason to add it. **15** 

### MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. **16** 

### MR. COFFEY: So here's the technology **17** 

### assessment and the list of the technology **18** 

### options that DOE identified for improving motor **19** 

### efficiency. **20** 

### It's worth mentioning, of course, as **21** 

### has been pointed out before, that many of these **22** 

### are not completely independent of each other

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. Page 76**  **1** 

### but, rather, part of a larger optimization **2** 

### process of which efficiency is only one input, **3** 

### so we've seen these before. I won't read them but **4** 

### here they are. **5** 

### And that brings us to the **6** 

### engineering analysis. **7** 

### MR. BROOKMAN: At this point I think **8** 

### we should take a break. Let me say before we go **9** 

### to break a couple of individuals approached me **10** 

### this morning and said we're going to submit a lot **11** 

### of written comments and maybe we can move rather **12** 

### rapidly through this meeting today, we're now on **13** 

### Slide 32 and there are 117 slides, the thought **14** 

### being that maybe we could push through lunch and **15** 

### get it done. That doesn't seem likely to me at **16** 

### this point. **17** 

### However, we're due for a break. So **18** 

### it's now 11 o'clock. We'll come back at 11:15. **19** 

### Well, let's just see how it turns out, how long **20** 

### our endurance stays with us. **21** 

### Yes, apologies again for the delay **22** 

### at the outset. But we'll resume here at 11:15.

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. Page 77**  **1** 

### You must wear a badge inside the Forrestal **2** 

### building. There are restrooms on both ends of the **3** 

### hall. There's a water fountain at that end. If **4** 

### you're going to go to the coffee shop, please go **5** 

### quickly and we'll see you back here to resume at **6** 

### 11:15. **7** 

### (Whereupon, the above-entitled **8** 

### matter went off the record at 11:01 a.m., and **9** 

### resumed at 11:19 a.m.) **10** 

### MR. BROOKMAN: Okay, as a way of **11** 

### starting off, and we've got an A/V person working **12** 

### on the feedback again so maybe we'll make **13** 

### progress on that. **14** 

### I've had a request that we revisit **15** 

### the pool pump issue briefly and so let me go **16** 

### straight to Gary Fernstrom. **17** 

### MR. FERNSTROM: So this is Gary **18** 

### representing the California IOUs. I think we **19** 

### pretty well determined that there's not a **20** 

### conflict with this regulation covering pool pump **21** 

### motors for a number of reasons, one key one being **22** 

### polyphase versus single phase. Reference was

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. Page 78**  **1** 

### made to a prior regulation which is 431.441 and **2** 

### -- **3** 

### MR. BROOKMAN: Small motors. **4** 

### MR. FERNSTROM: Yes, small electric **5** 

### motors. This regulation applies to small general **6** 

### purpose motors, not small definite purpose **7** 

### motors as defined by NEMA, and pool pump motors **8** 

### are defined special purpose motors. **9** 

### So I would submit for DOE's **10** 

### consideration that this regulation does not **11** 

### apply to pool pump motors either because it **12** 

### applies to general purpose motors, not defined **13** 

### purpose motors. **14** 

### MR. BROOKMAN: Okay, thank you. **15** 

### Always nice to gain clarity where we can, okay. **16** 

### So then we're going to proceed with the **17** 

### engineering analysis and, Brian, are you going **18** 

### to introduce our, what's his name? Howard **19** 

### Jordan. **20** 

### MR. COFFEY: I will, but not at this **21** 

### slide. **22** 

### MR. BROOKMAN: Okay, so then we're

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. Page 79**  **1** 

### proceeding, engineering analysis and Brian **2** 

### Coffey. **3** 

### MR. COFFEY: Yes, so here we are at **4** 

### the engineering analysis. Here's the diagram you **5** 

### saw before showing the engineering analysis is **6** 

### an important input for several downstream **7** 

### analyses. **8** 

### And the purpose of the engineering **9** 

### analysis is really to evaluate design options **10** 

### that improve efficiency and to characterize **11** 

### manufacturer selling price versus efficiency **12** 

### for all equipment classes in the rulemaking. **13** 

### So that cost/efficiency **14** 

### relationship is an important input into the **15** 

### life-cycle cost, the payback period analysis, **16** 

### national impact analysis as well as the **17** 

### manufacturer impact analysis. **18** 

### Because it's not possible to **19** 

### directly analyze all covered designs, DOE **20** 

### chooses certain units to be representative of **21** 

### the rest. **22** 

### In this rulemaking, DOE selected

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. Page 80**  **1** 

### three representative units for Equipment Class **2** 

### Group 1 and two for Equipment Class Group 2, so **3** 

### here's a table showing how those are structured. **4** 

### And then here's a graphical overview **5** 

### of where the representative units fall relative **6** 

### to the scope of horsepower coverage, similar **7** 

### information just presented in a slightly **8** 

### different way. **9** 

### MR. BROOKMAN: Steve Rosenstock. **10** 

### MR. ROSENSTOCK: Hi. Question. Steve **11** 

### Rosenstock, EEI. The slide says average **12** 

### efficiency available, and then I'll just say for **13** 

### Equipment Class 1, is that for covered as well **14** 

### as non-covered, currently covered products as **15** 

### well as not currently covered products? **16** 

### MR. COFFEY: Well, this is just sort **17** 

### of heuristic to show graphically where the use **18** 

### would fall and what would be kind of a typical **19** 

### efficiency for that horsepower range. **20** 

### So I don't know, to be honest, the **21** 

### data set that was filtered to limit it but many **22** 

### of these motors would have minimum standards so

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. Page 81**  **1** 

### effectively they would be covered. **2** 

### MR. ROSENSTOCK: Thank you. **3** 

### MR. COFFEY: Okay, so in each **4** 

### equipment class, DOE identifies efficiency **5** 

### levels that range from baseline to the maximum **6** 

### technologically feasible level. **7** 

### Factors considered in setting ELs **8** 

### include commercially available and software **9** 

### modeled efficiencies, NEMA standard nominal **10** 

### efficiencies, for example Table 12-10, as well **11** 

### as benchmark industry efficiency levels such as **12** 

### NEMA Premium. **13** 

### Here are the actual efficiency **14** 

### levels analyzed for Equipment Class Groups 1, 3 **15** 

### and 4 and then 2 is on the next slide. **16** 

### MR. BROOKMAN: Steve Rosenstock. **17** 

### MR. ROSENSTOCK: Steve Rosenstock, **18** 

### EEI. I kind of alluded to this in my opening **19** 

### statement, but especially for EL 0 when I look **20** 

### in the technical support document it says the **21** 

### lowest observed efficiency under expanded **22** 

### scope.

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. Page 82**  **1** 

### And using this value, especially **2** 

### for, like, a five horsepower value, it looks **3** 

### like, and again this spills over into all the **4** 

### other economic and national impact analysis, it **5** 

### looks like for a baseline that the motor with the **6** 

### absolute worst deficiency was chosen as a, **7** 

### quote, "baseline," not the average efficiency or **8** 

### shipment weighted average or median but the **9** 

### worst possible efficiency. **10** 

### The reason I mention that, obviously **11** 

### it spills over. You start out with the worst **12** 

### deficiency motor. Then your energy efficiency **13** 

### and your economic numbers look a lot better when **14** 

### you're comparing against the worst absolute **15** 

### motor out there. **16** 

### I'm very surprised that this unit **17** 

### was chosen for the baseline because it's not **18** 

### reflective of the market, especially for covered **19** 

### products. Covered products are EL 1 or EL 1-1/2, **20** 

### whatever the EISA 2010 value is. **21** 

### So, again, maybe for non-covered **22** 

### products, there are some motors that are 82.5 for

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. Page 83**  **1** 

### example, but that could be just the outlier, the **2** 

### extreme, when most motors are going to be much **3** 

### more efficient, especially for applications in **4** 

### the industrial sector where they do try to **5** 

### typically use higher efficiency motors. **6** 

### MR. COFFEY: So I might defer that to **7** 

### Sanaee to explain the methodology of how the **8** 

### energy savings are calculated. **9** 

### MS. IYAMA: This is Sanaee from the **10** 

### Lawrence Berkeley National Lab. So when we **11** 

### calculate the life-cycle cost savings, for **12** 

### example, we look at the difference between a base **13** 

### case situation and a standards case situation. **14** 

### And in the base case, we account for **15** 

### those motors that are already at NEMA Premium, **16** 

### for example, by using efficiency distributions. **17** 

### So if you look at the efficiency **18** 

### distributions that were used, and here I only **19** 

### have the table for the year 2012 for example, **20** 

### about ten percent of the motors are at EL 0 in **21** 

### Equipment Class Group 1, and we already have over **22** 

### 35 percent of motors that are at Premium, for

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. Page 84**  **1** 

### example. **2** 

### MR. BROOKMAN: Andrew. Oh, Steve, did **3** 

### you finish? Go ahead, Andrew. **4** 

### MR. DELASKI: I just wanted to follow **5** 

### on Steve. So, Steve, you and I have sat in these **6** 

### hearings for 15 years or longer and this is the **7** 

### way it's always been done until, I mean, the **8** 

### Department should weigh in here, help me out for **9** 

### that. **10** 

### This is not a divergence from any **11** 

### practice, any rulemaking. It's the way it's **12** 

### always been done, what Sanaee just described, **13** 

### for every rulemaking that I've been involved in **14** 

### for nearly 20 years. **15** 

### MS. IYAMA: This is Sanaee. The only **16** 

### difference I think in this rule is that we have **17** 

### an equipment class where we have covered and **18** 

### non-covered products, so products -- **19** 

### MR. DELASKI: But that's not that **20** 

### unusual a circumstance. There are many dockets **21** 

### in which we're covering a product newly covered. **22** 

### GSFL, we cover new categories of lamps. There are

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. Page 85**  **1** 

### dockets right now for wine chillers. There are **2** 

### lots of dockets. **3** 

### MS. IYAMA: I agree. **4** 

### MR. DELASKI: So this is a standard **5** 

### practice the Department has been doing and to **6** 

### handle it by weighted average by looking at a **7** 

### distribution of efficiencies -- **8** 

### MR. BROOKMAN: Let's hear from the **9** 

### Department. Doug. **10** 

### MR. RAWALD: I was at a past meeting **11** 

### where our colleague from Northeast Energy **12** 

### Alliance did a very good job of explaining this **13** 

### point. I thought that was helpful for folks that **14** 

### were not familiar with this so if you wouldn't **15** 

### mind explaining that here, that would be, I **16** 

### think, helpful. **17** 

### MR. BROOKMAN: Charlie Stevens. **18** 

### MR. STEVENS: Doug, you may have to **19** 

### remind me what I said. **20** 

### (Laughter) **21** 

### MR. STEVENS: Which one of the last **22** 

### seven meetings that I attend did I say it in? The

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. Page 86**  **1 way I understood this is we are newly covering**  **2 products here that have never been covered**  **3 before. So many of them are going to be at exactly**  **4 as it was described, the lowest efficiency**  **5 available or seen or you can buy in the**  **6 marketplace.**  **7 But as we always do, as Andrew just**  **8 pointed out, not all of the market is there and**  **9 so when you actually look at cost and efficiency**  **10 distributions later in the analyses, you account**  **11 for how many are already at that efficiency that**  **12 you're proposing at any given TSL and those**  **13 people will be unaffected by the standard.**  **14 But there's also some at the bottom**  **15 that will be impacted by the standard and the**  **16 savings are larger there, the costs are larger**  **17 there. But this is all, you know, as Andrew says,**  **18 this is how the analysis works.**  **19 But when you've got products in this**  **20 class that are unregulated right now, then you**  **21 just look at the marketplace to see what the**  **22 least efficient product is and that's EL 0 here.** 

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. Page 87**  **1 MR. DELASKI: If I could just follow**  **2 on, Doug, for a moment. That goes back to Neal's**  **3 opening statement. This was the idea behind the**  **4 petition made by the joint stakeholders, was**  **5 that there's a lot more efficiency to be gained**  **6 at the delta there, help me out there, it was**  **7 seven points of efficiency on that**  **8 five-horsepower motor.**  **9 That's why this is such a big**  **10 rulemaking. The potential there was to bring**  **11 motors that have been basically not covered by**  **12 any standards and capture that large efficiency**  **13 delta.**  **14 Even for a small portion of the**  **15 market would drive some significant savings in**  **16 this docket in comparison to one of the paths**  **17 that was considered early in this rulemaking**  **18 which was to go from EL 2 to EL 3 for also a good**  **19 portion of the market.**  **20 But that EL 2 to EL 3 data there shows**  **21 it's 0.7 points so it's ten times the savings**  **22 just for that one sample, that one number or that** 

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. Page 88**  **1** 

### one motor. **2** 

### So I think that slide kind of **3** 

### encapsulates some of the principles behind the **4** 

### joint recommendation made by the Motor **5** 

### Coalition. **6** 

### MR. BROOKMAN: Okay, thank you. **7** 

### Steve, you want to follow on? **8** 

### MR. ROSENSTOCK: Steve Rosenstock, **9** 

### EEI. I understand all that. It's just especially **10** 

### the way the language is written in the technical **11** 

### support document. Maybe it's semantics. **12** 

### Especially for Equipment Class **13** 

### Group 1 it makes it appear that, again, the way **14** 

### it's looking is that all motors, covered and **15** 

### non-covered, are at Efficiency Level 0. That's **16** 

### the problem I have with it. **17** 

### MR. COFFEY: Yes. It's -- **18** 

### MR. ROSENSTOCK: And therefore, it's **19** 

### overstating the potential energy savings that **20** 

### actual consumers would actually find in the **21** 

### marketplace unless you're at that actual worst **22** 

### motor. That's the issue I have.

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. Page 89**  **1 The savings for an uncovered motor**  **2 at that efficiency is no problem. The problem I**  **3 have is the way it looks. And, again, in terms**  **4 of possible spillover, it's showing as if**  **5 Efficiency Level 0 was for both the covered and**  **6 non-covered products. That's the worry I have.**  **7 It's --**  **8 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay, so we hear you**  **9 and --**  **10 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Thank you.**  **11 MR. BROOKMAN: -- that was what you**  **12 said in your opening comments as well. Okay.**  **13 Additional comments here? Okay.**  **14 MR. COFFEY: Great. So then I**  **15 mentioned here are the efficiency levels for**  **16 Equipment Class Group 2. Same table we saw, just**  **17 different numbers.**  **18 Okay, to characterize cost and**  **19 efficiency, DOE did a few things. First, they**  **20 purchased, tested and tore down five electric**  **21 motors spanning ELs 0 to 3 for Equipment Class**  **22 Group 1 and EL 0 for Equipment Class Group 2, then** 

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. Page 90**  **1** 

### supplemented those findings with data made **2** 

### publicly available by manufacturers as well as **3** 

### through interviewing manufacturers directly. **4** 

### For the max-tech ELs for which there **5** 

### were no offerings on the market, again this is **6** 

### maximum technologically feasible is what DOE's **7** 

### attempting to characterize, DOE used software **8** 

### modeling with a proprietary program called VICA. **9** 

### They purchased and tore down 5- and **10** 

### 30-horsepower copper rotor motors in order to **11** 

### calibrate the software results which appear in **12** 

### the table shown here. **13** 

### And at this point I would also invite **14** 

### a participant on the webinar, Howard Jordan, who **15** 

### served as a subject matter expert for us to talk **16** 

### a little bit about the modeling process and how **17** 

### it pertains to these high efficiency designs. **18** 

### Howard, are you there? Can you introduce **19** 

### yourself? **20** 

### MR. JORDAN: Can you hear me? **21** 

### MR. BROOKMAN: Yes, we can hear you, **22** 

### Howard. There's feedback in the room but we can

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. Page 91**  **1** 

### hear you quite clearly if you speak loudly. **2** 

### MR. JORDAN: Okay. Do you have the **3** 

### view graphs that I sent or -- **4** 

### MR. BROOKMAN: We have them loaded. **5** 

### Can you advance those slides, Brian? **6** 

### MR. COFFEY: Well, is it a separate **7** 

### presentation? Everyone in the room has got a **8** 

### copy. **9** 

### MR. BROOKMAN: We all have a copy. **10** 

### MR. JORDAN: Okay, so I will be happy **11** 

### to refer to slide numbers or some way or another **12** 

### coordinate with what you have. **13** 

### I'm very pleased with the **14** 

### opportunity to talk with you today about **15** 

### software modeling that we have performed as part **16** 

### of this rulemaking program. **17** 

### About this program we got a number **18** 

### of comments and questions relative to the **19** 

### robustness of the software used for modeling so **20** 

### I thank you for the chance to submit some of this **21** 

### background on software. **22** 

### I have been asked to try to

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. Page 92**  **1** 

### abbreviate this discussion in order to help with **2** 

### the time situation so I will certainly try to do **3** 

### that. As King Henry VIII said to each of his six **4** 

### wives, I won't keep you long. **5** 

### (Laughter) **6** 

### MR. JORDAN: Okay, just a minute, **7** 

### please. **8** 

### MR. COFFEY: All right, this is **9** 

### Brian. Just let me know if you want me to advance **10** 

### the slide. **11** 

### MR. JORDAN: All right. I'm sorry for **12** 

### the interruption. Can you skip one slide and go **13** 

### to Number 3? Okay, that's where I wanted to start **14** 

### here. **15** 

### I'm going to start out with a brief **16** 

### history of the modeling. As I indicated, the **17** 

### program I'm using is VICA. It was originally **18** 

### developed by Dr. Cyril Veinott, a well-known **19** 

### pioneer in induction motor design. **20** 

### And I've been using it for quite a **21** 

### number of years, I think back end of the 1990s **22** 

### when I helped him with a course on that program.

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. Page 93**  **1 I've made several changes in it as I've gone**  **2 forward.**  **3 We go now to Slide 5. I'm going to**  **4 skip some slides here and probably skip around**  **5 in the slides just as a matter of shortening our**  **6 talk. Yes, that's the one that I want.**  **7 We are aware of at least two motor**  **8 manufacturers that have used VICA as their**  **9 principle design tool, Lincoln Electric in**  **10 Cleveland and Eberle in Brazil. I have really**  **11 only talked with Eberle once and that was many**  **12 years ago so I can't comment on their use.**  **13 I have some better information on**  **14 Lincoln and they used the software in the design**  **15 of their energy efficient line of motors which**  **16 is a very competitive line of motors so it must**  **17 have worked pretty well for them.**  **18 And now if we can go to I believe it's**  **19 the following slide. Okay. The reason that I'm**  **20 putting this one and one other application slide**  **21 in here is to indicate specifically how some of**  **22 the designs that we made with VICA have been** 

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. Page 94**  **1** 

### built and tested and done quite well. **2** 

### The first one that I'm going to talk **3** 

### about is the EMALS. That's the Navy's **4** 

### Electromagnetic Aircraft Launching System. I **5** 

### was working at that time with the University of **6** 

### Texas Research Center and they had the contract **7** 

### to build the energy storage systems for EMALS. **8** 

### I'm not going to go into much of the **9** 

### detail regarding the EMALS program but it **10** 

### basically was comprised of a linear motor **11** 

### located underneath the deck to provide traction **12** 

### force to give the aircraft liftoff speed. EMALS **13** 

### was intended and will replace the catapult **14** 

### systems. And then the following slide. **15** 

### The second component after the **16** 

### linear motor is the energy storage system and **17** 

### that's what we were responsible for at UT. **18** 

### The launching of the aircraft **19** 

### requires so much power that it exceeds the power **20** 

### capability of the ship's generators, and power **21** 

### was provided by the energy storage system. Next **22** 

### slide, please.

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. Page 95**  **1 The energy storage system is a high**  **2 inertia generator driven by induction motor and**  **3 the purpose of the motor is to drive the**  **4 generator up to top speed.**  **5 During a launch, it loses speed as**  **6 it delivers energy to the bus, and then at the**  **7 end of the launch you have to drive it back up.**  **8 This all takes place in less than a minute so it's**  **9 a very rapid situation. And the next slide,**  **10 please.**  **11 The purpose of my relating all this**  **12 is that it was a place where we had to design a**  **13 motor to a very stringent set of specifications**  **14 that were established by the Navy and General**  **15 Atomics, the prime contractor.**  **16 These specifications very clearly**  **17 were quite different from the NEMA Design B motor**  **18 spec, but they still required the accurate**  **19 prediction of torques, currents and**  **20 efficiencies and so forth. Next slide, please.**  **21 We also were subjected to a very**  **22 stringent test to prove that we met all of our** 

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. Page 96**  **1** 

### requirements. It was a week-long witness test **2** 

### witnessed by both the Navy and General Atomics **3** 

### and the motor passed it completely. We didn't **4** 

### have to make any modifications to it whatsoever, **5** 

### so VICA did a pretty good job for us. **6** 

### The equipment was then sent on to the **7** 

### Naval Air Test Station in Lakehurst, New Jersey, **8** 

### and it served for about two years while the **9** 

### initial system tests on EMALS had taken place. **10** 

### Okay, can I have the next slide, please? **11** 

### The second program where we have had **12** 

### a similar experience is the Advanced Locomotive **13** 

### Propulsion System. The acronym for that is ALPS. **14** 

### And this was a program that was sponsored by the **15** 

### Federal Railroad Administration. **16** 

### The portion of ALPS system that was **17** 

### developed was a flywheel energy storage unit **18** 

### which was part of the locomotive power **19** 

### generator. **20** 

### The main generating plant was a gas **21** 

### turbine and a plain generator and then this **22** 

### storage system was used to provide boost power

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. Page 97**  **1** 

### during acceleration and then extra power to **2** 

### maintain it on grades and this allowed the main **3** 

### generating plant that was powered to run to full **4** 

### speed which is very good for gas turbine power **5** 

### plant. **6** 

### The induction motor that we used, **7** 

### which will be on the next slide, the induction **8** 

### motor that we designed was both the motor and **9** 

### induction generator in this, which delivered **10** 

### power during the acceleration period and then **11** 

### accepted the return power during braking. It was **12** 

### two megawatt running at a top speed of 12,000 **13** 

### rpm. We built this, we tested it and all of the **14** 

### measured electrical parameters were confirmed **15** 

### in our calculations. **16** 

### The other point I did want to bring **17** 

### up, in both of these situations they were copper **18** 

### rotors. Some of the questions in the **19** 

### correspondence related to suitability of VICA **20** 

### for copper motors. Can I have the next slide, **21** 

### please? **22** 

### Okay, we'll leave outside examples

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. Page 98**  **1** 

### now and go to [the motor teardowns] done **2** 

### internally in the program here for this **3** 

### rulemaking project. **4** 

### As has already been mentioned in the **5** 

### previous slide, Navigant purchased a number of **6** 

### motors built by different manufacturers and they **7** 

### were torn down and the measurements made used **8** 

### primarily for cost estimating purposes. **9** 

### But a subset of these motors was **10** 

### tested prior to tear down and we acquired enough **11** 

### data so that we could duplicate the **12** 

### electromagnetic design. **13** 

### And using this data, we made VICA **14** 

### calculations to take the performance of the **15** 

### motor. Next slide, please. **16** 

### This is a summary of the results that **17** 

### we got. I summarized here three important **18** 

### parameters, efficiency, locked-rotor current **19** 

### and locked-rotor torque. **20** 

### The results are very encouraging, **21** 

### but I call your attention particularly to the **22** 

### efficiency which is a minus number and this is

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. Page 99**  **1** 

### calculated minus test which means that the test **2** 

### results for efficiency were not only pretty **3** 

### close but they were higher, so our efficiency **4** 

### predictions based on this are on the **5** 

### conservative side. Okay, let's go to the **6** 

### following slide. **7** 

### We only had three motors and I'm well **8** 

### aware that that's not enough for a very good **9** 

### statistical distribution and the variation in **10** 

### locked-rotor torque in one case was up to 14 **11** 

### percent. **12** 

### So it looked like we probably should **13** 

### do a little bit more with regard to default and **14** 

### correlation factors than simply use the average. **15** 

### I did that on the locked-rotor torque. **16** 

### We took the step of adding one sigma **17** 

### bandwidth to the average difference for **18** 

### locked-rotor torque which gave us a design goal **19** 

### of 12 percent higher locked-rotor torque. **20** 

### That would mean for a motor that had **21** 

### 150 percent NEMA requirement, we would design to **22** 

### meet 1.12 times 150 or 168 percent. The next

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. Page 100**  **1** 

### slide, please. **2** 

### We applied this to all of the motors **3** 

### after this correlation study was done. However, **4** 

### in terms of a timeline, that was well along in **5** 

### the program so it certainly raises the question, **6** 

### well, if we have motors we've designed which **7** 

### didn't meet this revised locked-rotor torque **8** 

### spec, what would changing that design do with **9** 

### regard to the motor efficiency? **10** 

### To sort of answer that question I **11** 

### took two specific ratings that were in one of the **12** 

### previous tables, one was the max tech 30 **13** 

### horsepower Design B and the other, the max tech **14** 

### 5 horsepower Design C and we went back through. **15** 

### We really optimized those two designs to meet our **16** 

### new locked-rotor torque requirements and so the **17** 

### results are on the following slide. **18** 

### For the 30 horsepower motor, the **19** 

### optimized design with increased locked-rotor **20** 

### torque reduced the efficiency by one tenth **21** 

### percentage point, a very significant reduction. **22** 

### We used the same core length and used the same

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. Page 101**  **1** 

### original optimized design. **2** 

### For the five horsepower, I did **3** 

### increase the core length 5.7 percent but the **4** 

### copper weight was decreased 3.3 percent, so it **5** 

### has a rather minimal effect on the motor cost and **6** 

### the efficiency actually increased by one tenth **7** 

### of a percent. **8** 

### So the conclusion that I would reach **9** 

### out of that is at least for the cases that we **10** 

### studied and looked at, we can change the **11** 

### locked-rotor torque if we have to get a little **12** 

### bit higher value. It has a relatively small **13** 

### effect on the motor efficiency. Can I have the **14** 

### next slide, please? **15** 

### We did have one cast Design B cast **16** 

### copper rotor that was tested and we got all the **17** 

### results from that. In terms of time, you may **18** 

### wonder why I didn't incorporate that in the **19** 

### previous presentation. Well, this five **20** 

### horsepower came in quite a bit later, after we'd **21** 

### done the original correlation study. And these **22** 

### are the results. I'll call your attention again

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. Page 102**  **1** 

### to the fact that the efficiency calculated lower **2** 

### than test, which is good. **3** 

### The big miss that we had here was in **4** 

### power factor, and I'm quite sure that that **5** 

### discrepancy is due to the fact that we don't have **6** 

### the correct magnetization curve for the steel **7** 

### used in this particular motor, and I'd like to **8** 

### elaborate: This is a foreign motor that was **9** 

### tested and my suspicion is that they probably **10** 

### used some pretty low-loss steels, high silica **11** 

### and that tends to provide much more **12** 

### magnetization being required for those **13** 

### particular grades of steel. So this is the **14** 

### results that we got on that copper bar rotor. **15** 

### It's at a place where we are able to match our **16** 

### correlation of the VICA program with copper for **17** 

### our rotor. And the next slide, please. **18** 

### Okay, we've summarized here several **19** 

### techniques that we used to validate the software **20** 

### for this rulemaking program and we've given you **21** 

### some real-world examples where VICA has produced **22** 

### motor designs which have been built and tested

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. Page 103**  **1** 

### and they've satisfied the needs of the **2** 

### application. We've also described test **3** 

### correlation for a limited number of commercial **4** 

### motors where VICA has been able to duplicate the **5** 

### motor's performance using teardown data. VICA **6** 

### software has demonstrated credibility in these **7** 

### situations. And the final slide, please. Well, **8** 

### thank you for your attention. **9** 

### MR. BROOKMAN: Howard, thank you. **10** 

### Well done. Hang on in case we have questions. **11** 

### Steve Ruffing. **12** 

### MR. RUFFING: Steve Ruffing, Nidec **13** 

### Motor Corporation. Thank you for that **14** 

### explanation, Howard. I have a few questions for **15** 

### you about the methodology that the program uses. **16** 

### In order to obtain a calculated efficiency, you **17** 

### need to first calculate all the components of **18** 

### loss, sum them together and then from there you **19** 

### can derive what the efficiency is. **20** 

### My question relates to how some of **21** 

### these components were calculated. My first **22** 

### question relates to the friction and windage

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. Page 104**  **1** 

### component, which is a mechanical loss as opposed **2** 

### to an electrical loss. **3** 

### Did it actually make a prediction **4** 

### for what these losses would be, based on the **5** 

### information of what bearing size was used, what **6** 

### the diameter of the rotor was, what the diameter **7** 

### of the fan was or was that just a value that was **8** 

### input later after you got the measured value? **9** 

### That's my first question. **10** 

### MR. JORDAN: It's not sophisticated **11** 

### enough to take into account bearing sizes and **12** 

### fans, no. It is an input item into the program. **13** 

### If you have information which I was able to on **14** 

### some designs look at the test data that we had **15** 

### taken and use the friction and windage that was **16** 

### available. Otherwise, I had to use some average **17** 

### values of friction and windage that I took from **18** 

### my own data for various frame sizes. **19** 

### MR. RUFFING: Thank you. My second **20** 

### question relates to the I-squared-R losses. **21** 

### Those vary as a function of the conductor **22** 

### temperature, so many programs will make an

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. Page 105**  **1** 

### initial prediction for that, then calculate the **2** 

### temperature rise of the conductor that would **3** 

### result based on those losses, then readjust the **4** 

### I-squared-R loss prediction based on your new **5** 

### temperature, then readjust the temperature rise **6** 

### based on the new loss prediction and continue to **7** 

### do that in an iterative fashion until you **8** 

### basically got a convergence. **9** 

### A less sophisticated program would **10** 

### not attempt to make a temperature prediction. **11** 

### You would input a temperature that you either **12** 

### estimated or got from a test, and then use that **13** 

### number to just make a single calculation for the **14** 

### I-squared-R losses. Which method did this **15** 

### program use? **16** 

### MR. JORDAN: The latter method is the **17** 

### one we used. This program is not, again, the most **18** 

### sophisticated to the point that it has thermal **19** 

### analysis attached with it. I've used thermal **20** 

### analysis as a separate program. **21** 

### But it's an input item. I took the Design B **22** 

### temperature rise and added something to that.

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. Page 106**  **1** 

### These being energy-efficient motors, you expect **2** 

### that the temperature's going to be lower than the **3** 

### absolute temperature. So I estimated it, **4** 

### hopefully on the conservative side. But the **5** 

### direct answer to your question is it is an input **6** 

### item. **7** 

### MR. RUFFING: And my third question **8** 

### related to loss breakdown is: does the program **9** 

### attempt to make a prediction for the stray losses **10** 

### or is that also an input value? **11** 

### MR. JORDAN: That is an input item and **12** 

### that's, of course, a tough one always to get to. **13** 

### I estimated as a percentage of the full load **14** 

### value, and I did get some correlation with that **15** 

### estimate. I did that back when I started the **16** 

### program and I looked at the test data that was **17** 

### available from the various tests that had been **18** 

### run over time in this program and my estimate was **19** 

### very close to an average of those. But again, the **20** 

### answer is it is an input item. **21** 

### MR. RUFFING: Thank you, and then I **22** 

### had one additional question not related to

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. Page 107**  **1 losses. In the NOPR there's a list of technology**  **2 options that are considered in order to increase**  **3 efficiency and some of these were screened out**  **4 by DOE and some were not. And one that was not**  **5 screened out was the option of increasing the**  **6 copper cross sectional area and the stator**  **7 losses.**  **8 And in the supporting document, it**  **9 describes the method that was used to calculate**  **10 the slot fill and it talks about how the slot area**  **11 was determined and then a certain number was**  **12 subtracted for that to account for insulation**  **13 and then the area of the conductors was**  **14 calculated and divided into that and that's what**  **15 the slot fill is resulting.**  **16 My question is: when you determined**  **17 the area of the conductors, did you assume that**  **18 the conductors are round as they actually are or**  **19 did you instead calculate it by assuming the**  **20 conductors were square in shape, with the length**  **21 of the sides of the square being equal to the**  **22 diameter of the conductors? Manufacturers do it** 

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. Page 108**  **1** 

### in either of those two methods and when you use **2** 

### one, the square method as opposed to the round **3** 

### method, you'll get an answer that is larger than **4** 

### the round method by a ratio of four divided by **5** 

### the number pi. **6** 

### MR. JORDAN: The answer to your **7** 

### question is we used the square method. **8** 

### MR. RUFFING: Okay. **9** 

### MR. JORDAN: We calculated the square **10** 

### and we simply take the number of conductors in **11** 

### the slot times the diameter squared, so we do not **12** 

### put the pi over four into the slot fill **13** 

### calculation. **14** 

### MR. RUFFING: Thank you. I'm **15** 

### reassured by that answer because the maximum **16** 

### space factors that were allowed in the study, **17** 

### which I believe was 85 percent, that would be a **18** 

### reasonable number if you're using the square **19** 

### method but it would not be a reasonable method **20** 

### if you're using the round -- **21** 

### MR. JORDAN: Yes, that issue has come **22** 

### up before and I've attempted to define it and

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. Page 109**  **1** 

### make it clear in an equation, some of the **2** 

### responses, but that's the one that I've used and **3** 

### I think it is, let's call it the more pessimistic **4** 

### of the two, and that's the way all the slot fills **5** 

### were calculated. **6** 

### MR. RUFFING: Thank you. **7** 

### MR. BROOKMAN: We have a question on **8** 

### line from Tuan Ngo, pardon me for not knowing how **9** 

### to pronounce your name. "Why is the baseline EL **10** 

### 0 chosen, not meeting existing standards, i.e., **11** 

### for the five horsepower the existing standards **12** 

### require 89.5 percent." **13** 

### MR. COFFEY: That gets to a little bit **14** 

### what we were talking about before. The reason for **15** 

### that is for Equipment Class Group 1 you have a **16** 

### mix of products that is currently subject to **17** 

### standards and some that is not currently subject **18** 

### to standards. **19** 

### MR. BROOKMAN: Okay, thank you. Dan **20** 

### Delaney. **21** 

### MR. DELANEY: Just one more comment **22** 

### regarding the study here from Howard Johnson

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. Page 110**  **1 [Jordan]. Certainly what I heard from Howard,**  **2 which was positive, obviously most of AEDM**  **3 programs, the most important part obviously is**  **4 both the calculation, ensuring you're using the**  **5 right method, but also that correlation between**  **6 test and the calculation method, which it was**  **7 good to see the method in the data that was**  **8 presented so I thank Howard for doing that.**  **9 I just wanted to note, the VICA**  **10 program, Lincoln Electric being a part of the**  **11 Regal Company over ten years ago incorporated**  **12 through acquisition. I didn't find anyone in**  **13 current use. Just wanted to make sure that was**  **14 clear today, so I'm not sure what was done in the**  **15 past obviously there but --**  **16 MR. JORDAN: If you'll excuse me,**  **17 Lincoln exited the motor business, oh, I don't**  **18 know, more than five years ago and I think it went**  **19 to Marathon, so Lincoln Electric is somewhat**  **20 older data, but I'm quite sure that they were**  **21 using the program at the time they did their**  **22 energy-efficient motor design. And, again,** 

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. Page 111**  **1** 

### that's five years ago. **2** 

### MR. DELANEY: It would be greater **3** 

### than five years ago, but just wanted to make sure **4** 

### that was clear within the business, that, you **5** 

### know, again, not sure as to what basis of time, **6** 

### but it would be greater than five years ago that **7** 

### would have been used as an active program. **8** 

### Lincoln is still an active line, however, you **9** 

### won't see it, probably as a standalone line as **10** 

### much as you did maybe when that was done but **11** 

### probably over ten years ago. **12** 

### MR. BROOKMAN: Okay, thank you. Are **13** 

### we finished with this subject now? Howard, thank **14** 

### you for the presentation. **15** 

### MR. JORDAN: Thank you for the **16** 

### opportunity. **17** 

### MR. BROOKMAN: Okay, now we're moving **18** 

### on. An update on the schedule. It turns out that, **19** 

### I guess the feedback's doing a little better here **20** 

### at the moment, the Secretary is having his annual **21** 

### Department holiday luncheon today so they're **22** 

### closing the cafeteria early. They're closing the

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. Page 112**  **1** 

### cafeteria, in fact, at 1 o'clock. So I'm going **2** 

### to suggest we break for lunch at 12:15, okay, so **3** 

### that everybody can get lunch and get back here **4** 

### to finish out the meeting. So that's the plan for **5** 

### now. **6** 

### MR. BOTELER: We're not invited to **7** 

### the Secretary's luncheon? **8** 

### (Laughter) **9** 

### MR. BROOKMAN: No, when we conclude **10** 

### this meeting, as expeditiously as possible, you **11** 

### can wander on down there and take your chances. **12** 

### (Laughter) **13** 

### MR. ROSENSTOCK: They have security **14** 

### guards down there. **15** 

### MR. BROOKMAN: Okay, so let's **16** 

### proceed, Brian. **17** 

### MR. COFFEY: So, great. We just **18** 

### talked about high-efficiency modeling. Now that **19** 

### brings us to how the Department develops **20** 

### material cost inputs. To estimate electric motor **21** 

### costs, DOE uses information gathered via **22** 

### teardowns and from interviewing manufacturers.

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. Page 113**  **1** 

### Bills of material tend to catalog all the **2** 

### component and labor costs involved in **3** 

### manufacturing a particular motor, and to **4** 

### characterize markups and labor rates, DOE uses **5** 

### information gathered from public data as well as **6** 

### also from manufacturer interviews. **7** 

### Once these markups are developed, **8** 

### DOE uses them to create manufacturer selling **9** 

### prices, or MSPs, for manufacturing production **10** 

### costs, or MPCs, and here on the table are DOE's **11** 

### estimates for those figures. Here's an example **12** 

### of what results look like for three of the **13** 

### representative units. These are cost efficiency **14** 

### curves. I can certainly show larger versions if **15** 

### we need them, and they're also available in the **16** 

### technical support document on DOE's website. So **17** 

### here are the other two for the Design C **18** 

### representative units. **19** 

### Couple of requests for comment. DOE **20** 

### seeks comment on its estimation for labor hours **21** 

### for each representative unit, DOE seeks comment **22** 

### on the cost to manufacturers to change their

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. Page 114**  **1** 

### product lines to meet EL 3, and DOE seeks comment **2** 

### on the cost to manufacturers in order to change **3** 

### their product lines to meet EL 4. **4** 

### MR. COFFEY: Don't see any comments **5** 

### so maybe we'll keep going. **6** 

### MR. BROOKMAN: No comments at this **7** 

### point? Rob. **8** 

### MR. BOTELER: Yes, this is Rob **9** 

### Boteler. I'm from Nidec. I have a question **10** 

### actually. On the, I guess it would be the EL 4 **11** 

### level with copper bar. In the presentation that **12** 

### Howard just made, he notes that your test **13** 

### example, that the power factor dropped from 84.9 **14** 

### down to 77 percent, 77.2. When the Department **15** 

### would do a cross comparison, would you redesign **16** 

### the product to maintain the level of power **17** 

### factor, or would you just let that drop and not **18** 

### worry about that or how would that be addressed? **19** 

### MR. COFFEY: So I think this is just **20** 

### for one unit. Certainly, and Howard can back me **21** 

### up here, but the Department attempts to make sure **22** 

### that the motor would meet all required

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. Page 115**  **1** 

### specifications. So he also mentioned an example **2** 

### with locked-rotor torque where his initial **3** 

### estimate came in a little bit high and so then **4** 

### he made an adjustment in the program and said, **5** 

### well, how much does this really affect **6** 

### efficiency? So there is a calibration process, **7** 

### but the end results are intended to represent **8** 

### something that would meet market specification. **9** 

### MR. BROOKMAN: Gary Fernstrom. **10** 

### MR. FERNSTROM: So this is Gary. We **11** 

### wouldn't want the energy saved in the motor to **12** 

### show up as energy lost in the building and **13** 

### utility distribution systems. **14** 

### MR. BROOKMAN: Got you. Bill Finley. **15** 

### MR. JORDAN: Brian, could I comment **16** 

### on that? **17** 

### MR. BROOKMAN: Please comment, **18** 

### Howard. **19** 

### MR. JORDAN: That miss on power **20** 

### factor was the one case that I've seen throughout **21** 

### all of the correlation and it doesn't represent **22** 

### the way we design motors at all. When I did the

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. Page 116**  **1** 

### design, I had the magnetization curve in VICA for **2** 

### the steel that I was intending to use and we hit **3** 

### the power factor almost as close as we did the **4** 

### efficiency. **5** 

### That particular unit is one that **6** 

### came from another country. I'm sure that they **7** 

### were using a high silicon steel, which I used a **8** 

### moderately high silicon steel in my design, and **9** 

### my program just didn't have the right **10** 

### magnetization curve for that one unit. So it's **11** 

### an isolated case. **12** 

### MR. BROOKMAN: Bill Finley. **13** 

### MR. FINLEY: Yes, Bill Finley, **14** 

### Siemens, and I have a comment here and the way **15** 

### Howard described the calibration design, the **16** 

### testing, the calibration is pretty much normal **17** 

### and the way it's done today, which in many cases **18** 

### it comes to the conclusion that you truly don't **19** 

### know what your performance is, particularly **20** 

### efficiencies, because windage and friction is **21** 

### many times an input and stator loss is many times **22** 

### an input and they will change dependent upon your

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. Page 117**  **1** 

### configuration in that. So in the end, you need **2** 

### to test it and then recalibrate it and then you'd **3** 

### know your efficiency from there on. **4** 

### MR. BROOKMAN: Okay, thank you. **5** 

### Steve, did you have a follow-on comment? Steve **6** 

### Ruffing. **7** 

### MR. RUFFING: Steve Ruffing, Nidec **8** 

### Motors. It relates to what Bill was just **9** 

### touching. You know, so we mentioned there was **10** 

### some uncertainty with the steel model, which in **11** 

### this case affected the power factor calculation. **12** 

### The steel data also affects the core **13** 

### loss component of the motor losses. And when we **14** 

### think about it, there's only five components of **15** 

### loss that go into determining your efficiency, **16** 

### the core loss. So there's one of them and, of **17** 

### course, now there's been some question raised **18** 

### about that. The remaining four are the stray **19** 

### losses which, again, we determined was input to **20** 

### the program as opposed to calculated. The **21** 

### friction losses would be the third one which **22** 

### we've determined was input as opposed to

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. Page 118**  **1** 

### calculated. **2** 

### And the remaining two are **3** 

### I-squared-R losses, one being the stator, the **4** 

### other being the rotor, and it was determined that **5** 

### those were kind of pseudo-input because the **6** 

### temperature was not calculated. It was told to **7** 

### the program by the user and then those two **8** 

### I-squared-R losses were calculated result. So **9** 

### all five components of losses that are **10** 

### calculated in order to determine the efficiency, **11** 

### either required some user input to determine or **12** 

### they had some sort of an uncertainty due to the **13** 

### steel characteristics. **14** 

### MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Yes, John **15** 

### Malinowski. **16** 

### MR. MALINOWSKI: John Malinowski, **17** 

### Baldor Electric Company. When we start **18** 

### redesigning motors for higher efficiency, we **19** 

### start playing around with quite a number of **20** 

### different characteristics of the motor. Power **21** 

### factor, efficiency goes up. Power factor usually **22** 

### goes down. We also have to be careful with our

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. Page 119**  **1** 

### design so we don't lose starting torque. **2** 

### The other problem with redesigning **3** 

### for higher efficiency is sometimes the inrush **4** 

### current gets raised up and it changes from a **5** 

### Design B to a Design A motor. So, you know, a **6** 

### designer must be careful with all these limits. **7** 

### You can't get everything. You can't get the **8** 

### higher efficiency along with good power factor **9** 

### and along with low inrush current. It just kind **10** 

### of defies laws of physics to do many of these **11** 

### things. **12** 

### With regard to EL 4 and reaching **13** 

### these levels, I think the coalition and **14** 

### individual motor manufacturers have previously **15** 

### made comments to the feasibility and use of **16** 

### copper rotors. We don't have the capacity to do **17** 

### copper rotors in 5 million units a year **18** 

### production today. **19** 

### And then there's question on **20** 

### previous tests that our company has done in **21** 

### conjunction with the DOE and with the Army, that **22** 

### the results of those tests haven't been what have

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. Page 120**  **1** 

### been calculated. **2** 

### Everything looks great on paper, but **3** 

### in production the process of casting the copper, **4** 

### we believe might damage the insulation on the **5** 

### lamination, therefore creating more losses **6** 

### there that aren't captured in the design **7** 

### program. So if someone were to use the design **8** 

### program and model it, you always think you're **9** 

### going to get better than what you actually do in **10** 

### production. **11** 

### And when you start getting the **12** 

### rotors back from these companies that are **13** 

### casting them in prototype quantities, the **14** 

### ability to get good rotors to be used for **15** 

### production is very small. **16** 

### MR. BROOKMAN: Okay, thank you. Steve **17** 

### Rosenstock. **18** 

### MR. ROSENSTOCK: Steve Rosenstock, **19** 

### Edison Electric Institute. Just to kind of **20** 

### follow up with Gary's comments. In terms of the **21** 

### power factor, this spills over into the economic **22** 

### analysis, especially for the larger motors and

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. Page 121**  **1** 

### industrial applications. **2** 

### Larger customers tend to be metered **3** 

### for the kVA, so there can be power factor **4** 

### penalties if their facility, not motor but the **5** 

### facility power factor goes below a certain level **6** 

### at the facility level. Typically the range is 85 **7** 

### percent power factor to 90 percent, depending on **8** 

### the utility. That's based on a survey that we did **9** 

### several years ago. **10** 

### So I think that for the individual **11** 

### motor it doesn't make a difference but for, I'll **12** 

### say a heavily motor population, especially **13** 

### industrial facilities, if the higher efficiency **14** 

### requirement, you know, obviously there's no **15** 

### power factor requirement, if it leads to lower **16** 

### power factors, there will be a possible economic **17** 

### ding on that industrial customer in terms of **18** 

### their cost will be higher because of lower power **19** 

### factor. Thank you. **20** 

### MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Can you do the **21** 

### next four slides in ten minutes or should we -- **22** 

### MR. COFFEY: I can certainly try.

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. Page 122**  **1** 

### MR. BROOKMAN: Should we break for **2** 

### lunch? Let's break for lunch. It's now 12:10. The **3** 

### main cafeteria which is about, to the ground **4** 

### floor about 100 yards that a way, will close at **5** 

### 1:00 so go quickly to there. The other **6** 

### alternative would be the Subway shop which is **7** 

### where the coffee shop is. They will also be **8** 

### serving lunch and maybe there'll be a big crowd **9** 

### going through here so you should go quickly and **10** 

### expeditiously get lunch. **11** 

### And we'll see you back here at ten **12** 

### minutes after 1:00 to resume. Make sure you have **13** 

### your badge. This room will be locked. It'll be **14** 

### secured so you can leave your stuff. You might **15** 

### need an ID to get back through the security **16** 

### portal. Okay? See you back here at ten after **17** 

### 1:00. **18** 

### (Whereupon, the foregoing matter **19** 

### went off the record at 12:10 p.m. and went back **20** 

### on the record at 1:20 p.m.) **21 22** 

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. Page 123**  

### 1

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### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. Page 124**  **1 A-F-T-E-R-N-O-O-N S-E-S-S-I-O-N**  **2 (1:20 p.m.)**  **3 MR. BROOKMAN: Please take your**  **4 seats. We're going to resume and I'm happy to**  **5 report for everyone present and those joining us**  **6 online, we had the A/V folks in here over lunch**  **7 and we think, knock on wood, that they've**  **8 resolved the bulk of the problem and I, myself,**  **9 took copious notes on how they did it.**  **10 MR. RABA: Did you miss lunch?**  **11 MR. BROOKMAN: No, no. I just caught**  **12 them on the way to the elevator. It was a fairly**  **13 brief description, which I'm about to commit to**  **14 the record here. Are you ready? No, just kidding.**  **15 So hopefully we won't encounter this problem in**  **16 the future, but I'm eager to resume.**  **17 MR. RABA: What was the problem?**  **18 Explain how it was solved, please, sir.**  **19 MR. BROOKMAN: I'll tell you offline.**  **20 (Simultaneous speaking.)**  **21 MR. RABA: For future.**  **22 MR. BROOKMAN: Yes. No, no, for sure.** 

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. Page 125**  **1 I'm not fooling. I mean, we really --**  **2 MR. RABA: I understand. Thank you**  **3 very much.**  **4 MR. BROOKMAN: I dragged it out of**  **5 them. Okay, so we're going to proceed with Brian**  **6 and we left off I believe on 47.**  **7 MR. COFFEY: So I think we read these**  **8 requests for comment.**  **9 MR. BROOKMAN: We did and we did not**  **10 receive any comment from industry on EL 3 and EL**  **11 4. I thought that was purposeful and that they're**  **12 going to supply written comments. Maybe there**  **13 are some others at this point, John.**  **14 MR. MALINOWSKI: I made comments on**  **15 it.**  **16 MR. BROOKMAN: Yes, thank you, John.**  **17 You did. I apologize, yes. Any additional**  **18 comments on these comment boxes before we move**  **19 on? Okay, we're moving on.**  **20 MR. COFFEY: Okay. So after, we had**  **21 just finished talking about representative**  **22 units and then in order to get results for all** 

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. Page 126**  **1 the covered units, DOE does scaling. So, yes, it**  **2 scales the results from the representative**  **3 units, the equipment classes which were not**  **4 analyzed directly. And so here you can just see**  **5 a summary of how that scaling took place for each**  **6 equipment class group.**  **7 DOE considered using mathematical**  **8 regressions to establish efficiency standard**  **9 equations, you know, across horsepower, but**  **10 ultimately decided to use NEMA's MG 1 tables as**  **11 a basis for the efficiency levels and then NEMA**  **12 bands to go incrementally higher as the expanded**  **13 range of efficiencies and are already familiar**  **14 to the industry. So next slide.**  **15 Here's a summary of efficiency**  **16 levels by equipment class. As mentioned earlier,**  **17 they're based on tables from MG 1 or on**  **18 incremental NEMA bands above those levels.**  **19 And then finally this is the end of the**  **20 engineering analysis. Here's just a graphical**  **21 representation of scaling as it pertains to each**  **22 equipment class by horsepower and by pole count,** 

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. Page 127**  **1 so you can kind of just see, yes, graphically how**  **2 those representative units might cover the**  **3 space.**  **4 And that's the end of the engineering analysis,**  **5 so I'll invite up Sanaee Iyama to talk about the**  **6 markups and energy use analysis.**  **7 MR. BROOKMAN: I would invite any**  **8 additional comments or questions about the**  **9 market and technology assessment and**  **10 engineering analysis before we move on. Bill,**  **11 did you have something? No, nothing at this**  **12 point? Okay, then we are moving on. Sanaee.**  **13 MS. IYAMA: Good afternoon. I'm**  **14 Sanaee Iyama with the Lawrence Berkeley Lab, and**  **15 I'll start by presenting the markups analysis.**  **16 So the purpose of this analysis is to determine**  **17 consumer motor prices based on the manufacturer**  **18 selling prices, both for baseline and higher**  **19 efficiency motors.**  **20 We used the same method as used in**  **21 the preliminary analysis. We first identified**  **22 distribution channels from the manufacturer to** 

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. Page 128**  **1 the end user and then for each party involved in**  **2 those distribution channels we establish the**  **3 markup, and then we used those to convert the MSP**  **4 into consumer prices.**  **5 Same as in the preliminary analysis,**  **6 DOE identified six primary distribution**  **7 channels which are listed in this table,**  **8 together with the share of annual shipments**  **9 which are sold through either of these channels**  **10 and these numbers are the same as the ones used**  **11 in the preliminary.**  **12 So as a next step, for each of the**  **13 parties in those distribution channels DOE**  **14 established both a baseline markup and an**  **15 incremental markup. The baseline markup relates**  **16 the consumer price to the cost of goods sold**  **17 prior to a change in efficiency. It covers all**  **18 the business's expenses and profit.**  **19 The incremental markup relates the**  **20 change in consumer price to the incremental**  **21 increase in the cost of goods sold due to**  **22 efficiency. And the basis for using such** 

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. Page 129**  **1 approach is that the selling price of a piece of**  **2 equipment is not strictly proportional to its**  **3 purchase price.**  **4 So when the cost of goods sold**  **5 increases due to efficiency, only a fraction of**  **6 the business's expenses increases, and so the**  **7 incremental markup relates the change in**  **8 consumer price to the incremental change of the**  **9 cost of goods sold only, and only covers those**  **10 expenses that scale with the increase in**  **11 efficiency. And, again, that's the same method**  **12 that was used in the preliminary analysis and**  **13 that led to a weighted average baseline markup**  **14 across all distribution channels of 1.63 and an**  **15 overall incremental markup of 1.5.**  **16 MR. FERNSTROM: Sanaee, can we ask a**  **17 question?**  **18 MR. BROOKMAN: Gary Fernstrom.**  **19 MR. FERNSTROM: Gary Fernstrom,**  **20 California IOUs. Could you go back to the prior**  **21 slide, please? In looking at share of shipments,**  **22 is this in terms of horsepower or in terms of** 

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. Page 130**  **1 individual motor units? 2 MS. IYAMA: Units.**  **3 MR. FERNSTROM: It surprises me that 4 OEM to end user would be so high relative to**  **5 products provided through distribution. I would 6 think OEM to end user would be the larger motors.**  **7 Do you have a thought on that or this is just what 8 you found? Okay.**  **9 MR. BOTELER: This is Rob Boteler 10 with Nidec. I think these are percentages that**  **11 we've kind of discussed as a trade association 12 and individual members from our interviews that**  **13 we provided to Navigant. And, you know, our sales 14 to OEMs are roughly 50 percent. Some**  **15 manufacturers it might be more. Some it might be 16 a little bit less.**  **17 And then our sales to distributors, about 50 18 percent of those end up going to small OEMs and**  **19 then the remainder ends up going, you know, 20 either to a contractor or direct to the end user.**  **21 MR. FERNSTROM: Okay thank you, Rob. 22 I misread this. This says from manufacturer to** 

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. Page 131**  **1 OEM to end user.**  **2 MR. BOTELER: Right.**  **3 MR. FERNSTROM: I was reading it from**  **4 OEM, meaning the manufacturer, to end user.**  **5 Thank you for that.**  **6 MS. IYAMA: Okay, sorry.**  **7 MR. BASSO: Dale Basso, WEG Electric.**  **8 I'm assuming that the OEM to end user includes**  **9 OEM to their distributor to end user, and that**  **10 your markup is calculated based on potentially**  **11 either a direct or a distribution of that**  **12 equipment. So there's a combination, because if**  **13 it goes through their distributor it's going to**  **14 get marked up additionally. And I guess the**  **15 question is: have you considered that in the**  **16 numbers that you put out as far as impact?**  **17 MS. IYAMA: So you're saying there**  **18 might be an extra step between the OEM and the**  **19 end user?**  **20 MR. BASSO: Oh yes, definitely.**  **21 MS. IYAMA: Okay.**  **22 MR. BASSO: And maybe you've taken** 

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. Page 132**  **1 that into account in the overall.**  **2 MR. BROOKMAN: And, Sanaee, I'm not**  **3 sure, I may have missed it. Did you say what the**  **4 source for this markup analysis was, or the**  **5 multiple sources?**  **6 MS. IYAMA: For just characterizing**  **7 the distribution channels, it was a combination**  **8 of research performed at LBNL with the help of**  **9 a motor expert, Austin Bonnett, and then a**  **10 combination also of the responses we got from the**  **11 manufacture interviews.**  **12 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay, excellent.**  **13 Charlie Stevens.**  **14 MR. STEVENS: Yes, I was going to say**  **15 the same thing. I think the 50 percent number**  **16 might actually end up being split into two where**  **17 there's a distributor of an OEM product between**  **18 the end user and the OEM. But it still would fall**  **19 within the 50 percent of to OEM to end user.**  **20 MS. IYAMA: Okay.**  **21 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Thanks,**  **22 Charlie. Yes, please, Brian.** 

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. Page 133**  **1 MR. COFFEY: Sanaee, I was just going**  **2 to say I don't know if your --**  **3 MR. BROOKMAN: You're on.**  **4 MR. COFFEY: I don't know if your**  **5 footnote at all addresses any of what people have**  **6 been suggesting, that just there are some other**  **7 channels, but she found that they were small. I'm**  **8 not sure if that's what folks were commenting**  **9 about.**  **10 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay, thank you.**  **11 MS. IYAMA: So next, after the**  **12 markups, I'm going to talk about the energy use**  **13 analysis. The purpose is to develop annual**  **14 electricity consumption data for electric**  **15 motors based on field operating condition at the**  **16 baseline and higher efficiency levels. We used**  **17 the same method as in the preliminary analysis.**  **18 We developed average energy use values by using**  **19 typical motor operating profiles associated**  **20 with different applications within different**  **21 sectors.**  **22 And we accounted for variability in** 

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. Page 134**  **1 the field by using statistical distributions to**  **2 characterize inputs such as operating hours and**  **3 motor loading. On this slide, we’re just showing**  **4 the equation used to calculate the energy use.**  **5 For electric motors, the actual energy used by**  **6 the motor itself refers to the energy losses. The**  **7 remaining energy is converted to useful**  **8 mechanical shaft power.**  **9 The annual energy use which combines**  **10 the motor losses and mechanical horsepower is**  **11 given in this first equation, and the bottom**  **12 equation provides the calculation for the motor**  **13 losses. On this slide, we show the main changes**  **14 that have happened since the preliminary**  **15 analysis for some of the inputs to the energy use**  **16 calculation.**  **17 And in the next slides, I'll go**  **18 through them in further details, but basically**  **19 we have adjusted the distribution across sectors**  **20 to account for the fact that we now include**  **21 56-frame size motors in the scope and those are**  **22 mainly used in commercial applications.** 

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. Page 135**  **1 And then we also revised the**  **2 distributions across applications by sector,**  **3 the operating loads and operating hours to**  **4 account for additional motor information from**  **5 The Northwest Industrial Motors Database as well**  **6 as to account for information coming from the**  **7 U.S. Agriculture Census. On this slide I present**  **8 the data used for the distribution of shipments**  **9 across sectors, so that varies by horsepower**  **10 range and each row here equals to 100. You know,**  **11 we're talking about shipments in units.**  **12 On the next slides, I show an example**  **13 of the distributions across applications that**  **14 were used as an input to the energy use analysis.**  **15 So we established for each sector and equipment**  **16 class, a distribution of shipments across**  **17 applications.**  **18 Here we show an example for the**  **19 industrial sector and for Equipment Class Group**  **20 1 and that distribution varies by horsepower**  **21 range and, again, here each row equals to 100**  **22 percent. On the next slide, I show the annual** 

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. Page 136**  **1 operating hours by application. So these were**  **2 revised again to account for additional motor**  **3 information collected during the NOPR and we**  **4 have different operating hour assumptions**  **5 depending on the sector, the application and the**  **6 horsepower range.**  **7 DOE also determined average values**  **8 for load and here we show the average load for**  **9 each of the considered application and that load**  **10 data was used to calculate the part-load**  **11 efficiency based on test data from the**  **12 engineering analysis. So we actually used**  **13 part-load efficiency values in that calculation**  **14 and not the nominal full-load efficiencies. And**  **15 on this slide, we have the resulting annual**  **16 energy consumption for each of the**  **17 representative units at each of the efficiency**  **18 levels.**  **19 MR. BROOKMAN: So that was a lot of**  **20 content, a lot of analysis. Any of the foregoing**  **21 slides of this section, any questions or**  **22 comments here? Okay, nothing additional at this** 

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. Page 137**  **1 time. Go ahead.**  **2 MS. IYAMA: Okay. So next I'll**  **3 continue with the life-cycle cost and payback**  **4 period analysis. The purpose of this analysis is**  **5 to assess the life-cycle cost impacts and**  **6 payback period for the consumers of electric**  **7 motors under each considered efficiency level.**  **8 And results are expressed in terms of life-cycle**  **9 cost difference between a base case and a**  **10 standards case situation.**  **11 The life-cycle cost equals the total**  **12 installed cost plus the sum of annual operating**  **13 cost discounted to a particular base year. And**  **14 here we modeled the uncertainty and variability**  **15 of the inputs using a Monte Carlo approach which**  **16 characterizes each input by using a probability**  **17 distribution and that was implemented in Excel**  **18 using a little software called Crystal Ball.**  **19 This chart presents the calculation**  **20 for the life-cycle cost and payback period, so**  **21 the top part of the chart represents the**  **22 different step that allows us to calculate the** 

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. Page 138**  **1 total installed cost and the bottom part of the**  **2 chart represents the calculations for the**  **3 lifetime operating expenses.**  **4 Both combined are used to calculate**  **5 the life-cycle cost and the payback period is the**  **6 total installed cost divided by the first year**  **7 of operating expenses. So in gray we have all the**  **8 different inputs used, in green the intermediate**  **9 results, in yellow the final results.**  **10 And in the next slides I'll go**  **11 through the inputs that we haven't yet covered**  **12 in the engineering, markup, or energy use, and**  **13 I'll focus on those inputs that have changed**  **14 since the preliminary analysis, and I'll start**  **15 with the mechanical lifetimes.**  **16 So in the preliminary analysis we**  **17 used a single set of mechanical lifetimes across**  **18 all sectors, and in the NOPR we used**  **19 sector-specific mechanical lifetime and these**  **20 are presented here on this slide. And we used the**  **21 same method after to calculate the motor**  **22 lifetime in years using the operating hours. And** 

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. Page 139**  **1 on the next slide we have the estimated weighted**  **2 average lifetime in years, and here I'm just**  **3 showing as an example the Equipment Class Group**  **4 1 lifetimes.**  **5 The other input that has changed is**  **6 the repair frequency. Actually the frequency**  **7 itself hasn't changed. We're still assuming**  **8 either the motors are not repaired, repaired at**  **9 half lifetime or at a third of the lifetime, but**  **10 since lifetime has changed, those frequency**  **11 expressed in hours have changed and that's**  **12 pretty much all the main changes that have**  **13 happened in the NOPR.**  **14 And here I'm showing the results for**  **15 the life-cycle cost and payback period for**  **16 Representative Unit 1. We see that the**  **17 life-cycle cost savings are positive**  **18 throughout, up to Efficiency Level 3. However,**  **19 for another representative unit here, the**  **20 Representative Unit 3, we have positive results**  **21 of up to Efficiency Level 2.**  **22 MR. BROOKMAN: Yes please, Bill.** 

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. Page 140**  **1 MR. HOYT: Bill Hoyt with NEMA.**  **2 Question for you, Sanaee. When you refer to**  **3 average repair frequency, what type of repairs**  **4 are you referring to?**  **5 MS. IYAMA: So here we're just**  **6 considering a rewind as a repair.**  **7 MR. BROOKMAN: Do you want to cue**  **8 these comment boxes?**  **9 MS. IYAMA: Sure, so we have three**  **10 requests for comments on the life-cycle cost and**  **11 payback period. First, DOE seeks comments on any**  **12 additional sources for determining the**  **13 frequency of motor repair depending on the**  **14 equipment class group and sector. DOE seeks**  **15 comment on any additional sources of information**  **16 for motor lifetime and any information to help**  **17 estimate the base case efficiency**  **18 distributions.**  **19 MR. BROOKMAN: Comments on these**  **20 three request boxes? Okay, I see none at this**  **21 time. Okay.**  **22 MS. IYAMA: So, next I'll talk about** 

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. Page 141**  **1 the shipments, national impact analysis, and**  **2 regulatory impact analysis, and I'll start with**  **3 the shipments section. So the purpose of this**  **4 analysis is to estimate electric motor shipments**  **5 in the base case and standard cases.**  **6 Here we relied on the same method as**  **7 in the preliminary. We used current and**  **8 historical shipments data and then projected**  **9 those shipments over the analysis period,**  **10 assuming that shipments are driven by economy**  **11 growth and fixed investment in equipment**  **12 including motors. We used the exact same**  **13 shipments model and I haven't provided more**  **14 details on this since this hasn't changed.**  **15 And what has changed are the annual**  **16 shipments because the scope has been expanded to**  **17 include, for example, the 56-frame size motors.**  **18 Here we have a breakdown of the 2011 shipments**  **19 in thousand units by horsepower range, so we have**  **20 a total of about 5.4 million units.**  **21 And on the next slide I'm showing the**  **22 shipment projections, and here just to note that** 

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. Page 142**  **1 for the purpose of the analysis we modeled the**  **2 compliance date of December 19th, 2015, by using**  **3 January 1st, 2016, so that's why you see here**  **4 2016.**  **5 And here I have two requests for**  **6 comments. DOE seeks comments on any additional**  **7 source of information that could be used to**  **8 establish the distribution of electric motors**  **9 across each equipment class group as well as the**  **10 distribution of motors across each horsepower**  **11 range within each equipment class group.**  **12 MR. BROOKMAN: Rob.**  **13 MR. BOTELER: Hi. Rob Boteler with**  **14 Nidec. I would just comment that I think if you**  **15 go back, one more chart I think, right here, I**  **16 think the numbers that LBNL has come up with in**  **17 your analysis are very consistent with what NEMA**  **18 would believe are market numbers based on the**  **19 scope of the product that we're talking about**  **20 today.**  **21 MR. BROOKMAN: Thank you, that's**  **22 helpful, useful. Okay, additional comments** 

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. Page 143**  **1 here.**  **2 MS. IYAMA: Thank you. So next I'll**  **3 present the national impact analysis. So the**  **4 purpose is to estimate the national energy**  **5 savings and the national economic impacts for**  **6 electric motor users, and we do this at each of**  **7 the considered standard levels. DOE calculates**  **8 the national energy savings by multiplying unit**  **9 lifetime energy savings by projected shipments**  **10 and accumulating this projected value over 30**  **11 years.**  **12 And DOE calculates the net present**  **13 value by accumulating the difference each year**  **14 between energy bill savings and increased**  **15 equipment cost for all motors shipped over the**  **16 30-year period. And in the next slides, I'll**  **17 highlight the main changes that have happened**  **18 since the preliminary analysis and these relate**  **19 to the base case efficiency distribution and the**  **20 standard case efficiency distribution projected**  **21 over the 30 year.**  **22 So first the base case efficiency** 

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. Page 144**  **1 projection. This depicts the current and**  **2 projected mix of electric motor efficiencies**  **3 sold in the absence of a new regulation. For the**  **4 year 2012, DOE used the number of models meeting**  **5 the requirements of each efficiency level from**  **6 six major manufacturer catalog data and one**  **7 distributor to develop the base case efficiency**  **8 distribution and we did this by equipment class**  **9 group and for each of the horsepower range.**  **10 Beyond 2012, DOE assumed the**  **11 efficiency distributions for Equipment Class**  **12 Groups 1 and 4 varied over time based on**  **13 historical data for the market penetration of**  **14 NEMA Premium motors within the market for**  **15 integral AC induction motors.**  **16 For Equipment Class Group 2 and 3,**  **17 we kept the base case efficiency distribution in**  **18 the compliance year equal to the 2012 level and**  **19 did not assume any trend beyond 2012. And here**  **20 we have just an illustration of what those trends**  **21 look like for Equipment Class Group 1 and here**  **22 we're looking at the one to five horsepower** 

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. Page 145**  **1 range.**  **2 So we have the NEMA Premium level in**  **3 green, the Efficiency Level 2, and you see that**  **4 the market share slightly increases over time,**  **5 taking over EL 0 and EL 1 motors. So that's for**  **6 the base case which is in the absence of any new**  **7 regulation.**  **8 Next, and this slide differs**  **9 slightly from what you have in the handouts, but**  **10 for the standard case efficiency projection,**  **11 which depicts the projected mix of electric**  **12 motor efficiencies sold for the different**  **13 efficiency standards case, we used the following**  **14 steps to estimate that distribution. So in the**  **15 compliance year, we just did a roll up, a roll**  **16 up of the base case efficiencies, which means**  **17 that all equipment with efficiencies below the**  **18 standard level roll up to the standard level.**  **19 Beyond the compliance year for**  **20 Equipment Class Groups 1 and 4, DOE assumed that**  **21 the level immediately above the standard would**  **22 show similar increase in market penetration as** 

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. Page 146**  **1 the NEMA Premium motors in the base case. And for**  **2 Equipment Class Group 2 and 3, we kept the**  **3 standards case efficiency distribution constant**  **4 and equal to that of the compliance year.**  **5 Next, here I'll present the trial**  **6 standard levels, so in the preliminary analysis**  **7 we presented results in terms of efficiency**  **8 levels. Here in the NOPR we present results in**  **9 terms of trial standard level, which are a**  **10 combination of efficiency levels.**  **11 DOE established four TSLs, from**  **12 max-tech all the way down to TSL 1. TSL 1**  **13 represents a level where all equipment classes**  **14 move up one efficiency level above the baseline**  **15 except fire pumps, which remain at the baseline**  **16 level.**  **17 TSL 2 represents a level equal to**  **18 NEMA Premium for all equipment class groups**  **19 except for fire pumps, which remain at the**  **20 baseline.**  **21 TSL 3 is one NEMA band above NEMA**  **22 Premium for all equipment class groups except** 

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. Page 147**  **1 fire pumps, which now move up to NEMA Premium,**  **2 and TSL 4 is the maximum level, max-tech level,**  **3 for all of the equipment class groups.**  **4 And here we see the national energy**  **5 savings for each of the TSL considered. You see**  **6 that for all classes, they range between about**  **7 one quad up to almost 14 quads with about seven**  **8 quads at TSL 2.**  **9 And on the next two slides, I have**  **10 the net present value results, first at three**  **11 percent discount rate. We see that we have 23.3**  **12 billion at TSL 2, minus 42.4 at TSL 4 and here**  **13 we have the results with a discount rate of seven**  **14 percent.**  **15 Next I have a few requests for**  **16 comments. DOE seeks comments on the decision to**  **17 use efficiency trends for Equipment Class Groups**  **18 1 and 4 and constant efficiencies for Equipment**  **19 Class Groups 2 and 3. Specifically DOE would like**  **20 comments on additional sources of data on trends**  **21 in efficiency improvements.**  **22 Issue Number 9, DOE seeks comments** 

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. Page 148**  **1 on any source of data that could be used to**  **2 establish the elasticity of electric motor**  **3 shipments with respect to changes in purchase**  **4 price.**  **5 And then we have four additional**  **6 request for comments. The first one is on the way**  **7 the MSP values were scaled across all horsepower**  **8 range and poles and enclosures. The second is**  **9 similar comment but this time related to weight.**  **10 Then we get to Issue Number 12, DOE**  **11 seeks comments on the TSL developed for the NOPR.**  **12 And Issue Number 25, currently DOE's reference**  **13 case project that prices for future shipments of**  **14 motors will remain constant. DOE's seeking input**  **15 on the appropriateness of this assumption.**  **16 MR. BROOKMAN: Several different**  **17 comment boxes. Let's start with 8 and 10. Any**  **18 comments here? Nothing here. Okay.**  **19 MR. DELASKI: I have a comment.**  **20 MR. BROOKMAN: Yes, please. Andrew**  **21 deLaski.**  **22 MR. DELASKI: So I wanted to comment** 

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. Page 149**  **1 on the impact analysis and I know there's a**  **2 certain art in projecting something over 30**  **3 years and beyond. I think what you've done here**  **4 is --**  **5 MR. BROOKMAN: Andrew, would you get**  **6 that closer to your face, please?**  **7 MR. DELASKI: Yes, the roll up**  **8 scenario is a typical scenario for the**  **9 Department to model and a rulemaking often also**  **10 is a model to shift scenario.**  **11 I think in this situation where**  **12 we're getting up against the top of the**  **13 physically possible efficiency levels that a**  **14 roll up is probably an appropriate approach.**  **15 But I also think we should**  **16 acknowledge that it's inherently conservative**  **17 and that it seems to me quite likely that you**  **18 would see market share at EL 3 and EL 4 grow when**  **19 the standards are at EL 2. Manufacturers will**  **20 seek to sell value-added products, not just at**  **21 EL 3/EL 4 but in other advanced motor types.**  **22 So as this becomes the standard, we** 

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. Page 150**  **1 will see market share for even more efficient**  **2 motors grow and that's not captured in this**  **3 analysis. And I think that's okay, but I think**  **4 it's an inherent conservatism in the savings**  **5 that are being projected.**  **6 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Yes, Bill.**  **7 MR. HOYT: Yes, I want to make a note**  **8 about the use of NEMA Premium. When the EISA went**  **9 into effect in 2010, in the 2011 version of MG**  **10 1, Table 12-12, we used to be titled NEMA**  **11 Premium. It was changed to just indicate Premium**  **12 motors and take the word NEMA out of it. NEMA**  **13 Premium is still a registered trademark with**  **14 NEMA.**  **15 However, there are additional**  **16 verification requirements to be able to use that**  **17 label, so I would request that the Department use**  **18 Premium level motors as opposed to NEMA Premium**  **19 in future references. Thank you.**  **20 MR. BROOKMAN: Thank you, Bill.**  **21 MS. IYAMA: Thank you.**  **22 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay, additional** 

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. Page 151**  **1 comments related to these comment boxes? Steve**  **2 Ruffing.**  **3 MR. RUFFING: Steve Ruffing, Nidec**  **4 Motors. Regarding Issue 12, maybe I'm misreading**  **5 something but I thought I see just a very small**  **6 error, conflict in the trial standard levels.**  **7 If you go back several slides, that**  **8 one right there. So the Trial Standard Levels 2**  **9 and 3 both makes the statement with the exception**  **10 of fire pump motors. If I'm reading the NOPR**  **11 correctly, it would really be with the exception**  **12 of fire pump motors and Design C motors.**  **13 If you look at Table IV.11 in the**  **14 NOPR for Equipment Class Group 2, which is Design**  **15 C motors, it defines EL 1 to be the EPACT '92**  **16 level and EL 2 to be the NEMA Premium level. So**  **17 if that's true, then TSL 2 would be EPACT level**  **18 for Design C and EL 2 would be NEMA Premium.**  **19 So in that case, I think that the**  **20 small conflict is that the Design C motors are**  **21 at the same levels as the fire pump motors for**  **22 TSL 2 and 3 even though it doesn't indicate it** 

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. Page 152**  **1 there on that slide, nor does it indicate it on**  **2 the comparable table in the NOPR.**  **3 MS. IYAMA: I have a copy of the NOPR**  **4 over there.**  **5 MR. BROOKMAN: She's got it.**  **6 MR. RUFFING: It says everything in**  **7 TSL 2 is at NEMA Premium level.**  **8 MS. IYAMA: Sorry, you were**  **9 referencing a table in the NOPR?**  **10 MR. RUFFING: Yes, it's on Page**  **11 73627. It's Table IV.11.**  **12 MR. BROOKMAN: 73627.**  **13 MS. IYAMA: No. I think on this table**  **14 the EPACT '92 should read EL 0. Premium should**  **15 read EL 1, yes.**  **16 MR. RUFFING: Okay, that would**  **17 resolve the conflict. Okay, thank you.**  **18 MS. IYAMA: It starts at 1. It should**  **19 start at 0.**  **20 MR. RUFFING: Okay. Thank you.**  **21 MR. BROOKMAN: Andrew deLaski.**  **22 MR. DELASKI: I also just want to make** 

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. Page 153**  **1 another clarifying question. From reading the 2 NOPR, I believe, make sure I understood it**  **3 correctly, that the savings from 56-frame motors 4 are not included in the estimates that are put**  **5 on the screen. Is that correct? 6 MS. IYAMA: We included the enclosed**  **7 56-frames only above one horsepower so those 8 values are in the results.**  **9 MR. DELASKI: Maybe I'll take it 10 offline, but there was a part of the NOPR that**  **11 had there's 0.58 quads of savings over 30 years 12 from some motors that I thought the NOPR said had**  **13 not been yet wrapped into total analysis, and we 14 don't have to answer this right now.**  **15 MS. IYAMA: Yes, I believe those were 16 the 56 open, definite and special purpose.**  **17 MR. DELASKI: Okay. 18 MS. IYAMA: But the enclosed 56 are**  **19 in. 20 MR. BROOKMAN: Yes, Dan Delaney.**  **21 MR. DELANEY: Dan Delaney on behalf 22 of NEMA. Back to the Issue Question 12 just a note** 

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. Page 154**  **1 that, I'm sorry, Question 11, Issue 11, question**  **2 about scaling of the weights or different**  **3 considerations for enclosures, cast iron versus**  **4 aluminum versus, let's say, rolled steel**  **5 construction, considered in the weight scale.**  **6 I know it was an aspect that we**  **7 talked about that didn't appear that would be an**  **8 easy scaling factor that we could come up with,**  **9 NEMA could do. Just curious to see how you**  **10 address that.**  **11 MS. IYAMA: So in the engineering we**  **12 didn't take that into account, like the change**  **13 in material for those components that don't**  **14 affect efficiency.**  **15 And here it's sort of the same idea,**  **16 where things that don't impact the efficiency**  **17 we're not taking into account in the scaling, so**  **18 we assume that it would be the same construction**  **19 types that whatever was assumed for the**  **20 engineering. And so we try to scale**  **21 independently of those variations and just**  **22 accounting for horsepower and enclosures.** 

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. Page 155**  **1 MR. DELANEY: So just to clarify**  **2 again, the base case would be the constructions**  **3 that were looked at from the teardowns, so most**  **4 likely cast iron? Or I'm not sure what all the**  **5 constructions were, but from the teardown**  **6 construction that construction was used as the**  **7 scaling.**  **8 MS. IYAMA: Right, we actually looked**  **9 at a pretty large set of weight data for couple**  **10 of thousand motors that we collected through**  **11 those six manufacturer catalog data and one**  **12 distributor and then we filtered that to arrive**  **13 at those scaling indices.**  **14 So first, we looked at the four poles**  **15 and scaled that across horsepower by using only**  **16 the data for enclosed four-pole motors and the**  **17 representative units weights for where we had**  **18 data.**  **19 So for the five horsepower unit, the**  **20 30 horsepower unit and the 75 horsepower unit,**  **21 we looked at the population of motors and the**  **22 weight data we had.** 

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. Page 156**  **1 We made a regression. I think it was**  **2 a power law regression, which is more detailed**  **3 in the Chapter 10 of the TSD. We actually have**  **4 the different equations that we used for scaling**  **5 across horsepower for four-pole enclosed**  **6 motors.**  **7 And then for each horsepower, we**  **8 derived through a statistical analysis**  **9 different indices to scale that weight to the**  **10 different enclosures and poles.**  **11 MR. BROOKMAN: John Malinowski.**  **12 MR. MALINOWSKI: John Malinowski,**  **13 Baldor Electric. First of all, I just want to**  **14 amend what Bill said. The Table 12-12 is called**  **15 Premium Efficiency Motors, not NEMA Premium any**  **16 longer.**  **17 And with respect to these issues**  **18 here on Slide 91, I think you have to be very**  **19 careful with regard to weights in catalogs. Some**  **20 manufacturers use the weight of the motor with**  **21 its packaging materials, so it would be a**  **22 shipping weight, and other manufacturers have** 

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. Page 157**  **1 the weight of the motor alone, so you're**  **2 comparing apples and oranges in that respect.**  **3 Then if you go to another realm, you**  **4 almost have to compare one manufacturer to his**  **5 own motors rather than Manufacturer A to**  **6 Manufacturer B, because one manufacturer might**  **7 have a practice of over-designing, maybe using**  **8 thicker castings as a practice than another who**  **9 might use finite element analysis and, you know,**  **10 design it down to the nth degree and just use**  **11 enough material in the frames to do what needs**  **12 to be done.**  **13 So in that case, you know, comparing**  **14 Manufacturer A at one rating to Manufacturer B**  **15 at another rating, the scaling factor there**  **16 becomes inaccurate because of the inconsistency**  **17 of design practices. We don't like scaling. You**  **18 know, it kind of gets it to a motor by pound, you**  **19 know, horsepower by pound or rating by pound.**  **20 And we are not allowed to talk about**  **21 price here but when you look at the manufacturing**  **22 of motors by poles, the labor changes by pole** 

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. Page 158**  **1 count and the labor changes by the size of the**  **2 motor as to how much automation can be used in**  **3 the manufacture of that motor and how much hand**  **4 labor has to be done. So scaling doesn't work in**  **5 that respect as far as sell price or anything**  **6 there.**  **7 Again, we can't comment on prices of**  **8 future shipments but, of course, one could**  **9 assume that our motors are manufactured with**  **10 copper, steel and aluminum and one could look at**  **11 the futures for those commodities and what those**  **12 are expected to do in the future and, frankly,**  **13 I doubt that you could assume that they're going**  **14 to be level for the next umpteen years.**  **15 MR. BROOKMAN: Thank you. Several**  **16 comment boxes here. These last comments very,**  **17 very useful. Additional comments here before we**  **18 move on? Okay, we're moving on.**  **19 MS. IYAMA: Next I have a short slide**  **20 on the regulatory impact analysis. The purpose**  **21 is to evaluate non-regulatory alternatives to**  **22 proposed standards.** 

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. Page 159**  **1 And in order to do so, DOE uses a 2 modified NIA spreadsheet to evaluate whether**  **3 those non-regulatory options would lead to equal 4 or greater benefits. There is more detail in**  **5 Chapter 17. 6 MR. BROOKMAN: Sanaee, pardon me for**  **7 interrupting. I received a comment from someone 8 who's online, just before you move on.**  **9 This is from Tuan Ngo, again, 10 saying, "Since EL 0 includes motors that are not**  **11 meeting existing standards, the TSL developed 12 for the NOPR may be low?" I see some heads nodding**  **13 but no response yet. Dale. 14 MR. BASSO: This is Dale Basso, WEG.**  **15 I think that's kind of along the same lines of 16 what was addressed earlier, that there are**  **17 motors that exist that are not covered today, and 18 when they weighted the ones that were in the 0,**  **19 it was to cover ones that were in that category 20 of unregulated product that exist today.**  **21 The new regulation as proposed will 22 cover products that have never had any standard** 

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. Page 160**  **1 listed before and so they would fall into that**  **2 0 category.**  **3 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Okay, thank you.**  **4 I'm sorry to interrupt.**  **5 MR. LANSER: I have one comment.**  **6 MR. BROOKMAN: Yes, please --**  **7 MR. LANSER: Don Lanser from Nidec.**  **8 MR. BROOKMAN: Don.**  **9 MR. LANSER: On that Item 25, the**  **10 Department of Labor does measure producer price**  **11 index for integral horsepower motors, so if you**  **12 project that out you might get a different**  **13 answer.**  **14 MS. IYAMA: Right. So we actually**  **15 looked into different sources of data to try to**  **16 get to price trends. We looked at commodity**  **17 prices. It was a little bit all over the place**  **18 to be honest. We couldn't really conclude.**  **19 We looked at price indices, both in**  **20 AEO and from the Bureau of Labor Statistics. One**  **21 trend was going up, one trend was going down, so.**  **22 And this is in one of the appendices to Chapter** 

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. Page 161**  **1 10.**  **2 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay.**  **3 MS. IYAMA: So on the regulatory**  **4 impact analysis, we used the NIA spreadsheet to**  **5 evaluate the impact of several different options**  **6 that are listed here, consumer rebate, tax**  **7 credit, manufacturer tax credits, voluntary**  **8 targets, early replacement program and bulk**  **9 government purchase and, again, those results**  **10 are in Chapter 17.**  **11 And with that, I'll let Hayden**  **12 continue with the manufacturer impact analysis.**  **13 MR. BROOKMAN: Let me remind those of**  **14 you that are joining us via the web that if you**  **15 have questions or comments, we welcome your**  **16 participation in this meeting. Raise your hand**  **17 and we'll fit you in. Hayden, you're up.**  **18 MR. COOK: Hi. My name's Hayden Cook**  **19 from Navigant Consulting and I'll be discussing**  **20 the manufacturer impact analysis, or the MIA**  **21 that was conducted for this NOPR.**  **22 The MIA slides present three things.** 

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. Page 162**  **1 First, they'll present an overview of how the MIA**  **2 was conducted, second, they'll briefly discuss**  **3 the manufacturer impacts at the proposed**  **4 standard levels and, third, they'll introduce**  **5 the MIA topics DOE is seeking comment on.**  **6 The main purpose of the MIA is to**  **7 assess the impacts of standards on manufacturers**  **8 of electric motors.**  **9 A second purpose is to identify and**  **10 estimate the impacts on manufacturer subgroups.**  **11 In the upcoming slides, I'll discuss the impacts**  **12 of standards on the small business manufacturer**  **13 subgroup.**  **14 And the final portion of the MIA**  **15 involves a discussion of direct employment,**  **16 manufacturing capacity and other federal**  **17 regulations that impact the same manufacturers**  **18 around the compliance date for this standard.**  **19 The main tool DOE uses to evaluate**  **20 the impacts of standards on manufacturers is a**  **21 discounted cash flow model called the Government**  **22 Regulatory Impact Model, or GRIM.** 

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. Page 163**  **1 The major output from the cash flow**  **2 model is industry net present value, or INPV, a**  **3 metric used to represent the quantitative**  **4 impacts of new and amended standards on**  **5 manufacturers of the covered equipment.**  **6 For the MIA, DOE also conducted**  **7 interviews with manufacturers to refine the**  **8 inputs of the cash flow model and to understand**  **9 the qualitative impacts of standards.**  **10 So this slide shows the basic MIA**  **11 process which takes place in three phases. In the**  **12 first phase, which occurred during the**  **13 preliminary analysis, DOE used publicly**  **14 available information such as manufacturers'**  **15 annual reports to develop a profile of the**  **16 industry.**  **17 Phases 2 and 3 were conducted as part**  **18 of the NOPR analyses. In Phase 2, DOE developed**  **19 the cash flow spreadsheets that are used to**  **20 estimate the impacts on the industry and the**  **21 interview guide that was used to gather**  **22 information from manufacturers during these** 

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. Page 164**  **1 interviews.**  **2 In Phase 3, DOE conducted interviews**  **3 with manufacturers and used this information to**  **4 further develop the analysis and to finalize the**  **5 inputs that ultimately went into the GRIM.**  **6 Switching from the MIA methodology**  **7 to the specifics about this rulemaking, this**  **8 slide presents the key issues that we learned**  **9 from manufacturers during interviews that they**  **10 are concerned with for these electric motor**  **11 standards.**  **12 First, manufacturers are very**  **13 concerned if any motor standards require motor**  **14 efficiency levels beyond Premium efficient**  **15 motors, especially if these efficiency levels**  **16 require the use of copper rotors.**  **17 Manufacturers stated that**  **18 efficiency levels beyond Premium efficient**  **19 motors would require a significant level of**  **20 capital investment in R&D resources and this**  **21 would cause U.S. motor manufacturers to**  **22 manufacture motors that would be out of sync with** 

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. Page 165**  **1 the rest of the world standards.**  **2 If standards were to require the use**  **3 of copper motors, manufacturers would**  **4 experience further difficulties due to the**  **5 potential increase in copper price, the**  **6 volatility of the copper market and any**  **7 potential safety concerns regarding the higher**  **8 melting temperatures of copper compared to**  **9 aluminum.**  **10 The second issue is if standards for**  **11 motors increase, consumers are more likely to**  **12 rewind older, less efficient motors as opposed**  **13 to purchase newer, more efficient motors that**  **14 comply with standards.**  **15 Therefore, if motor standards**  **16 significantly increase the price of motors,**  **17 manufacturers believe that rewinding older,**  **18 less efficient motors might become a more**  **19 attractive option for some customers and thereby**  **20 prolong the use of these motors that consume more**  **21 energy.**  **22 Lastly, manufacturers are concerned** 

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. Page 166**  **1 about the enforcement of current in any**  **2 potential new motor standards. In general,**  **3 domestic motor manufacturers have stated that**  **4 they will comply with any electric motor**  **5 standards.**  **6 However, these manufacturers**  **7 believe that there are several foreign**  **8 manufacturers that may not comply with any**  **9 future standards if they were significantly**  **10 increased.**  **11 This could cause compliant**  **12 manufacturers to be placed at a competitive**  **13 disadvantage since complying with any increase**  **14 in standards could be costly.**  **15 While I don't have a comment box**  **16 here, I'd like to pause at this time to request**  **17 any statements about the key issues that are**  **18 presented here or any issues that are not**  **19 presented here.**  **20 MR. BROOKMAN: Rob.**  **21 MR. BOTELER: Rob Boteler with Nidec.**  **22 I would just comment on your second bullet that** 

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. Page 167**  **1 one of the things that we discussed, we came in**  **2 and had an ex parte meeting, I don't know, a year**  **3 ago.**  **4 In the category of motors that were**  **5 talked about, there is a huge population of used**  **6 motors and all one has to do is go on eBay,**  **7 Craigslist or any one of dozens of websites to**  **8 find out that there's thousands, if not**  **9 millions, of used motors available that as the**  **10 initial up-front cost of motors goes up they**  **11 become more attractive to the end user.**  **12 MR. BROOKMAN: Before they're on the**  **13 market, are they refurbished?**  **14 MR. BOTELER: They may or may not be.**  **15 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Additional**  **16 comments on these or perhaps elaborations on**  **17 these concerns, issues that are raised here in**  **18 97? Nothing additional, okay.**  **19 MR. COOK: Okay. This slide presents**  **20 an overview of the shipment and markup scenarios**  **21 that DOE ran for the MIA. DOE analyzed three**  **22 different markup scenarios for electric motors,** 

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. Page 168**  **1 a flat or preservation of gross margin markup**  **2 scenario, a preservation of operating profit**  **3 markup scenario and a two-tiered markup**  **4 scenario.**  **5 Each markup scenario produces a**  **6 unique set of cash flows. For the flat markup**  **7 scenario, manufacturers earn the same gross**  **8 margin markup as a percentage as they do in the**  **9 base case as they would in any increase in the**  **10 motor production cost due to standards.**  **11 For the preservation of operating**  **12 profit markup scenario, manufacturers earn the**  **13 same operating profit in absolute dollars in the**  **14 base case as they do in the standards case in the**  **15 year after standards go into effect.**  **16 And for the two-tiered markup**  **17 scenario, DOE modeled the situation in which**  **18 portfolio reduction caused by standards**  **19 squeezes the higher margins of the most**  **20 efficient motors as they become the minimally**  **21 compliant motors due to increases in standards.**  **22 The least severe markup scenario for** 

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. Page 169**  **1 manufacturers is the flat markup scenario since**  **2 manufacturers are able to pass on their costs to**  **3 customers due to standards.**  **4 The most severe markup scenario is**  **5 either the preservation of operating profit or**  **6 the two-tiered markup scenario, depending on**  **7 which TSL is analyzed.**  **8 For both these markup scenarios,**  **9 manufacturers are not able to fully pass through**  **10 the additional cost due to standards, thereby**  **11 potentially reducing manufacturers' profit**  **12 compared to the flat markup scenario.**  **13 Here are the INPV results for the**  **14 flat markup scenario, which represents the least**  **15 severe impacts to manufacturers. And, again, TSL**  **16 2 was the TSL that is proposed in the NOPR and**  **17 these represent the results for all equipment**  **18 class groupings.**  **19 This next slide shows the results**  **20 for the preservation of operating profit and the**  **21 two-tiered markup scenarios, which represent**  **22 the most severe impacts to manufacturers. And,** 

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. Page 170**  **1 again, TSL 2 is the TSL that's being proposed in**  **2 the NOPR. So if there are any comments on the**  **3 results of the MIA, I'd be open to that.**  **4 MR. BROOKMAN: No comments here.**  **5 MR. COOK: Okay.**  **6 MR. BROOKMAN: Andrew deLaski.**  **7 MR. DELASKI: This may be time for**  **8 kind of an offline conversation with the**  **9 Department, but do you know if the Department's**  **10 ever tried to -- we had an earlier discussion**  **11 about calibrating motor modeling. The**  **12 Department ever tried to calibrate the GRIM?**  **13 MR. COOK: What do you mean by**  **14 calibrate?**  **15 MR. DELASKI: What I mean is has the**  **16 Department ever tried to do an after-the-fact**  **17 analysis to see what actually happened?**  **18 (Simultaneous speaking.)**  **19 MR. DELASKI: Today, where the motor**  **20 manufacturers support this proposal, right, so**  **21 I'm guessing that it's more likely to have a**  **22 positive impact on their business, conducting** 

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. Page 171**  **1 their business, because they support it, right,**  **2 but that's a guess, right? I'm just drawing a**  **3 conclusion based on their position and their**  **4 sense of their business.**  **5 It would be, I think, useful for the**  **6 Department to do after-the-fact, at some point**  **7 in the future to go back and look at the GRIM and**  **8 say how well is it doing as a predictive tool?**  **9 Is there a way to go back after the fact and say,**  **10 you know, which of these models was correct?**  **11 So it's not really a question for**  **12 you. I know it's probably one that should be**  **13 taken up by the Department. I guess more for the**  **14 Department than it is for the consultant to**  **15 consider.**  **16 MR. BROOKMAN: Doug.**  **17 MR. RAWALD: And that's my thoughts**  **18 too. We'll pass it on to the right people.**  **19 MR. BROOKMAN: Thank you. Charlie**  **20 Stevens.**  **21 MR. STEVENS: Yes, along those same**  **22 lines I'm not necessarily suggesting that you do** 

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. Page 172**  **1 this right away, but it seems to me motors,**  **2 especially when you had as many distribution**  **3 channels as you saw up there and the enormous**  **4 range of horsepower that you're dealing with**  **5 here, all the way from some fairly regular**  **6 off-the-line into distributor stock-type**  **7 motors, all the way up to custom, you know, we'll**  **8 build it when you order it and pay for it kinds**  **9 of motors, it seems like different ones of these**  **10 markup scenarios might apply to different motor**  **11 sizes and different markets and distributor**  **12 channels.**  **13 But that would complicate your**  **14 analysis quite a bit and I'm not necessarily**  **15 recommending that you do that right now. But in**  **16 some case in the future when you see this kind**  **17 of thing it might actually be useful to**  **18 investigate whether that would be a factor.**  **19 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay, thanks.**  **20 MR. COOK: I think that's a fair point**  **21 and I think it's important to keep in mind that**  **22 these markup scenarios kind of represent the** 

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. Page 173**  **1 bounds of what we believe will happen. 2 And we're not necessarily saying**  **3 it's either going to be A, B or C as much as here 4 are the upper and lower bounds that we think are**  **5 reasonable and each manufacturer could be, you 6 know, on different places, each motor could be**  **7 on different places. 8 But these are more kind of an**  **9 uncertainty range to provide estimates as 10 opposed to we think it's going to be X or we think**  **11 it's going to be Y. 12 MR. BROOKMAN: It's a true reflection**  **13 of the meaning of scenarios. 14 MR. COOK: Correct.**  **15 MR. BROOKMAN: Yes. Okay, additional 16 comments here? Okay.**  **17 MR. COOK: So next I want to talk 18 about the small business impact. One of the**  **19 criteria DOE looks at is the impacts of standards 20 on small businesses.**  **21 To be considered an electric motor 22 small business manufacturer, the Small Business** 

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. Page 174**  **1 Administration, or SBA, sets a limit of 1,000**  **2 total employees or less for those manufacturers.**  **3 DOE used publicly available**  **4 information to identify potential small**  **5 business manufacturers, such as SBA's database,**  **6 DOE's Compliance Certification Management**  **7 System, trade association lists and Hoover's**  **8 website.**  **9 Also during interviews, DOE asked**  **10 manufacturers if they were aware of any**  **11 potential small businesses in their market.**  **12 After refining the list of potential**  **13 small businesses based on DOE's initial**  **14 research, DOE directly contacted the remaining**  **15 potential small businesses to determine if they**  **16 met SBA's definition of a small business**  **17 manufacturer.**  **18 DOE found 13 small business motor**  **19 manufacturers. Based on interviews and the**  **20 review of the products offered by these 13 small**  **21 businesses, DOE determined that five of the 13**  **22 small businesses manufacture specialty motors** 

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. Page 175**  **1 not currently subject to motor standards but**  **2 would be under the proposed expanded scope.**  **3 DOE believes that this group could**  **4 potentially be significantly impacted by the**  **5 proposed standards.**  **6 A different five small businesses**  **7 only manufacture a small amount of covered**  **8 motors and primarily focus on other types of**  **9 motors that are not covered by this rulemaking.**  **10 Therefore, DOE believes that the**  **11 proposed standards would not significantly**  **12 impact these businesses since less than ten**  **13 percent of their revenue comes from motors**  **14 covered by this rulemaking.**  **15 The remaining three small**  **16 businesses primarily manufacture motors that**  **17 already meet the proposed efficiency levels and,**  **18 therefore, DOE does not believe the proposed**  **19 standards would significantly impact these**  **20 businesses.**  **21 At this time I would like to request**  **22 comment on both the number of small businesses** 

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. Page 176**  **1 that DOE identified as well as the potential**  **2 impact of new and amended standards on these**  **3 small business manufacturers.**  **4 MR. BROOKMAN: John Malinowski.**  **5 MR. MALINOWSKI: John Malinowski**  **6 from Baldor. I think you've done a good job at**  **7 your analysis here. However, you've looked at**  **8 only businesses within the United States and**  **9 we're affecting a standard on motors that are**  **10 manufactured globally for use in the United**  **11 States.**  **12 So one of the comments that the**  **13 coalition has made and that our company has made**  **14 is, you know, not to set the efficiency limits**  **15 up so high that it might be viewed as a trade**  **16 barrier.**  **17 With respect to the efficiency**  **18 levels going to NEMA 12-12 level, that is a**  **19 global harmonization. Europe, the EU, will be**  **20 there in 2015 on motors 10 horsepower and larger.**  **21 They'll be there in 2017 on 1 through 10**  **22 horsepower. So with that idea, you know, we've** 

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. Page 177**  **1 harmonized globally and not gone astray.**  **2 There's a lot of small motor**  **3 manufacturers globally, a lot of little niche,**  **4 you know, $2 to $5 million companies, many of**  **5 them in southern Europe but, nonetheless,**  **6 there's many worldwide.**  **7 So you really need to look at this**  **8 more than just affecting U.S. manufacturers.**  **9 It's really a global standard, global**  **10 manufacturers and it has effect beyond our**  **11 borders.**  **12 MR. BROOKMAN: Thanks, John.**  **13 MR. COOK: Just one final**  **14 clarification. I do want to say that in terms of**  **15 the manufacturer impacts or in terms of the INPV**  **16 results, those would include global motor**  **17 manufacturers.**  **18 But specifically in terms of small**  **19 businesses, you are correct. It's only looking**  **20 at U.S. small businesses, but I just want to make**  **21 that clarification.**  **22 MR. BROOKMAN: Gary.** 

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. Page 178**  **1 MR. FERNSTROM: Gary Fernstrom. So, 2 John, I thought the whole objective of the**  **3 industry impact/small business impact analysis 4 was to look at the effect that a proposed**  **5 regulation might have on our economy. 6 And I kind of fail to see why it's**  **7 important that we consider the effect on small 8 businesses outside of this country. Can you help**  **9 me understand your reasoning better? 10 MR. BROOKMAN: John.**  **11 MR. MALINOWSKI: John Malinowski, 12 Baldor. I think the whole idea is global**  **13 harmonization. When we were looking at 14 efficiency levels above Table 12-12, nobody else**  **15 in the world was going to that level and we didn't 16 want to go there. We wanted to harmonize.**  **17 There are some other efforts going 18 along with the IECEE to come up with a global**  **19 marking of motors so that we don't have to do 20 separate compliance testing and approvals for**  **21 each country, so we all want to get to one level 22 and one test method and such.** 

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. Page 179**  **1 So with respect to companies**  **2 overseas, if we were to set a higher limit on**  **3 efficiency, let's say one or two bands above**  **4 Premium, might other countries perceive that we**  **5 are setting up some sort of a trade barrier so**  **6 that their companies can't freely trade into**  **7 this country?**  **8 You know, they've not gone there**  **9 with their efficiency standards. They offer them**  **10 as optional, you know, IE3 is equivalent to where**  **11 we're proposing this goes and that's where the**  **12 EU is going in 2015 and 2017 and we're going to**  **13 be in harmony.**  **14 At the same time, they've identified**  **15 another level, IE4, which is that NEMA Premium**  **16 plus level that is an optional level that some**  **17 companies, you know, offer in their product**  **18 line.**  **19 So we think a voluntary level on a**  **20 global level is a good thing, but then have the**  **21 advanced technology available just as we've**  **22 talked all day about having other technologies** 

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. Page 180**  **1 available above that level.**  **2 MR. FERNSTROM: Okay, thank you. I**  **3 understand that point of view and the benefit of**  **4 global harmonization, but I think perhaps with**  **5 some other products Europe and maybe in some**  **6 cases Asia are ahead of us with respect to**  **7 efficiency.**  **8 MR. MALINOWSKI: Not on motors.**  **9 MR. FERNSTROM: No, not on motors.**  **10 And, you know, I just wonder how we might**  **11 extrapolate your thinking to other products**  **12 where we might be behind and not ahead. Thank**  **13 you.**  **14 MR. BROOKMAN: Right, thank you.**  **15 Okay.**  **16 MR. COOK: Okay, if there's no more**  **17 comments on my section, I'll return it to Sanaee.**  **18 MS. IYAMA: Okay, so I'll continue**  **19 with the environmental, utility, and employment**  **20 impacts, and I'll start with the environmental**  **21 impact analysis which combines the emissions**  **22 analysis and the monetized values of emissions.** 

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. Page 181**  **1 The purpose of the emissions impact**  **2 analysis is to estimate the emission reductions**  **3 resulting from the national energy savings,**  **4 including changes in power plant emissions and**  **5 full fuel cycle emissions.**  **6 DOE used the National Energy**  **7 Modeling System, the NEMS model, to derive**  **8 emission factors for carbon dioxide and other**  **9 gasses like nitrogen oxide and sulfur dioxide.**  **10 And here on this slide I'm just**  **11 showing the results at the proposed standard TSL**  **12 2 of about almost 400 million metric tons of CO**  **2 13**  **savings. 14**  **That's cumulative over the 30 years. 15**  **As a next step, we look at those emission savings 16**  **and convert those into monetized values. 17**  **And in order to do so, we used the 18**  **most current Social Cost of Carbon values at 19**  **different rates that you see on this slide and 20**  **we also did this for NO emission reductions. And**

**x 21**  **here on this next slide we have the results in 22**  **million dollars and that's over the 30-year**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. Page 182**  **1 analysis period.**  **2 Next I'll go through the utility**  **3 impact analysis. The purpose is to assess the**  **4 impacts of the different standard level**  **5 considered on domestic electricity suppliers.**  **6 We used a modified version of the**  **7 NEMS model to generate forecasts that deviate**  **8 from the reference case. And here again we have**  **9 results at TSL 2 and there's more detailed**  **10 results in the TSD.**  **11 Next I'll talk about the employment**  **12 impact analysis. The purpose is to assess the**  **13 overall impact on indirect national employment**  **14 from standard that results from shifting**  **15 consumer expenditures amongst goods and**  **16 services and changing equipment and energy**  **17 costs.**  **18 So Hayden just talked about the**  **19 direct employment impacts and in this section**  **20 we're only looking at the indirect national**  **21 employment.**  **22 And the impacts were determined** 

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. Page 183**  **1 using the ImSET model and results showed that the**  **2 impacts were actually pretty negligible over**  **3 time, and we actually have quantified results in**  **4 the TSD chapter.**  **5 Now we get to the last section of**  **6 this presentation. Just a quick summary of all**  **7 the results we saw today.**  **8 I'll start with an overview of the**  **9 NIA and MIA results, so here we have all the TSL**  **10 represented. In bold we have the results at TSL**  **11 2. We see that we have national energy savings**  **12 of seven quads, NPV of $23 or $9 million dollars**  **13 depending on the discount rate and here you have**  **14 the range of the manufacturer impacts as well.**  **15 On the next slide we have the summary**  **16 of the emission impacts. So again, about almost**  **17 400 million metric tons of CO and this is over**  **2 18**  **the 30-year period. Below we have the value of 19**  **emission reduction in dollar values. 20**  **On the next slide we have a summary 21**  **of the life-cycle cost and payback period 22**  **results, and here we calculated within each**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. Page 184**  **1 equipment class group a shipment weighted**  **2 average of the LCC results using the**  **3 representative units to provide a number for the**  **4 entire class. So we have a TSL 2 weighted average**  **5 LCC savings of about $139 and a payback period**  **6 of about three years.**  **7 And here we have the consumer**  **8 impact. And to go back to what we were talking**  **9 earlier, a TSL 2, if you look at the last three**  **10 rows, you see that about 58 percent of the**  **11 population would not be impacted by the**  **12 regulation and that's because a lot of motors are**  **13 already at NEMA Premium or Premium efficiency**  **14 levels, and you see that almost 34 percent of the**  **15 population would benefit from the standard.**  **16 And here we have the same table as**  **17 presented in the notice, which are the**  **18 annualized results, and here we only show the**  **19 results for TSL 2 and that's --**  **20 MR. BROOKMAN: Comments on the**  **21 foregoing summaries, summary tables? Nothing**  **22 additional at this time. Okay, thank you.** 

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. Page 185**  **1 So as we promised at the outset, now**  **2 is another opportunity for anyone that wishes to**  **3 make closing remarks, raise other issues that**  **4 you wish to raise that haven't been fully covered**  **5 during the course of the day to make sure this**  **6 record is complete. John Malinowski.**  **7 MR. MALINOWSKI: John Malinowski.**  **8 I'm going to, I guess, put my NEMA hat on and**  **9 probably my Motor Coalition hat as well and just**  **10 basically say that we appreciate working with**  **11 you through this and coming to a common**  **12 conclusion.**  **13 I want to restate our offer to work**  **14 in ex parte mode with the DOE and Navigant**  **15 between now and the final rule to perhaps vet the**  **16 words of the final rule into understandable**  **17 motor language so it's most clear for all to**  **18 interpret.**  **19 The success of previous rules such**  **20 as EISA and EPACT, we've not had any problems**  **21 with those as the verbiage in those was authored**  **22 by the motor people, NEMA and people from the** 

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. Page 186**  **1 coalition. So we'd like to take that good**  **2 practice and move that forward into this so that**  **3 we have fewer problems with enforcement on the**  **4 new rule as it comes out. Thank you.**  **5 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay, thank you. Gary**  **6 Fernstrom.**  **7 MR. FERNSTROM: This is Gary**  **8 Fernstrom. I'd just like to say on behalf of the**  **9 California Investor Owned Utilities, we're very**  **10 supportive of this rule with the minor technical**  **11 adjustments that NEMA's in the process of making**  **12 and very appreciative of the cooperative work**  **13 which took place in the coalition and with the**  **14 Department of Energy.**  **15 MR. BROOKMAN: Thank you. Other**  **16 concluding remarks as we round out the day here?**  **17 MR. RAWALD: Doug, I do have a --**  **18 MR. BROOKMAN: Yes, Doug, please.**  **19 MR. RAWALD: This is Doug Rawald. So,**  **20 John, the beginning of the day you mentioned that**  **21 you felt that the U-frame motor specifically**  **22 should be kept either to the standard they** 

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. Page 187**  **1 currently have if they were covered because**  **2 they're general purpose or those that are not**  **3 covered because they are special/definite**  **4 purpose would be at that level that's there now**  **5 for Subtype II motors that are U-frame.**  **6 So in your comments if you could**  **7 explain to us that, because that would be**  **8 creating a different class that we don't have**  **9 right now and assessing the cost and benefit of**  **10 that in real data terms so we can look at that**  **11 issue.**  **12 I think just you describing to us is**  **13 important but helping us understand the scope of**  **14 how many U-frame motors there are out there, how**  **15 many we're talking about, how expensive it would**  **16 be to make those go to the higher level versus**  **17 keeping them at the level that is currently set**  **18 for the U-frame folks, that would be very helpful**  **19 for our analysis I think.**  **20 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay, thanks. Any**  **21 additional comments here? Then for my part I**  **22 thank you all. A very constructive meeting,** 

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. Page 188**  **1 wonderful comment, very balanced and on point**  **2 and productive. I'll turn it back to Jim Raba for**  **3 our closing remarks.**  **4 MR. RABA: We conclude today's public**  **5 meeting in great appreciation for your**  **6 participation. This has been a very productive**  **7 meeting. Thank you.**  **8 Thank you to our motors team, Brian**  **9 Coffey, Sanaee Iyama, Vijeta Jangra, Hayden Cook**  **10 who virtually worked 24/7 for several weeks to**  **11 prepare the proposed rule, the analyses, slide**  **12 presentation and much more in time for today's**  **13 public meeting.**  **14 Thank you to our guest speaker,**  **15 long-time leading motor expert Dr. Howard Jordan**  **16 and his work on motor software to correlate test**  **17 results with calculated results.**  **18 And plus many thanks to our**  **19 technical crew, Emily Marchetti and Brenda**  **20 Edwards, who made this event logistically**  **21 possible, and to Facilitator Doug Brookman.**  **22 We look forward to receiving your** 

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. Page 189**  **1** 

### comments. Safe travels. **2** 

### (Whereupon, the meeting in the **3** 

### above-entitled matter was concluded at 2:36 **4** 

### p.m.) **5 6**  **7 8**  **9 10**  **11 12**  **13 14**  **15 16**  **17 18**  **19 20**  **21 22** 

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### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. Page 191**  106:5,20 108:3,6 108:15 153:14 160:13 Anybody 14:10 apologies 6:12 67:2

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121:6 89.5 109:12 8E-089 1:11 9 9 147:22 9:00 1:12 9:45 6:2 90 121:7 91 156:18 92 151:15 152:14 97 167:18NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com C E R T I F I C A T E This is to certify that the foregoing transcript

In the matter of:

Before:

Date:

Place: was duly recorded and accurately transcribed under my direction; further, that said transcript is a true and accurate record of the proceedings.

----------------------- Court Reporter 218

Electric Motors Energy Conservation Standards

US DOE

12-11-13

Washington, DC