### Page 1

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. 

### U.S. DEPARTMENT OF ENERGY

**+ + + + + NOTICE OF PROPOSED RULEMAKING FOR**  **REFRIGERATED BEVERAGE VENDING MACHINES TEST PROCEDURE** 

**+ + + + + PUBLIC MEETING** 

**+ + + + + TUESDAY**  **SEPTEMBER 16, 2014**

**+ + + + + The Public Meeting met in Room GH**  **019, 1000 Independence Avenue, S.W., Washington, D.C., at 9:20 a.m., Doug Brookman,**  **Meeting Facilitator, presiding.**

**PRESENT DOUG BROOKMAN, Public Solutions, Inc.,**  **Moderator ASHLEY ARMSTRONG, Department of Energy**  **SARAH BUTLER, Department of Energy DAVE CASE, Department of Energy**  **JIM COLLINS, Automated Merchandising Systems, Inc.**  **DOUGLAS DRENTEN, Crane Merchandising Systems** * **DAVID EDWARDS, Navigant Consulting JEREMY GREEN, The Glover Park Group**  **LARRY HIEB, SandenVendo America, Inc. CHRISTOPHER LAU, Navigant Consulting**  **RONALD MAJETTE, Department of Energy SUBARNA MALAKAR, Crane Merchandising**  **Systems*** **MICHAEL MAU*, Royal Vendors, Inc.**

### Page 2

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. 

### JOANNA MAUER*, Appliance Standards Awareness **Project (ASAP) SCOTT MITCHELL, Southern California Edison**  **MICHELLE NIEMEYER, Pacific Northwest National Laboratory**  **ELIZABETH NOLL, Natural Resources Defense Council**  **ELAINA PRESENT, Navigant Consulting CATHARINE CYR RANSOM, The Glover Park Group**  **GREGORY ROSENQUIST, Lawrence Berkeley National Laboratory**  **LOUIS STARR, Northwest Energy Efficiency Alliance**  **MVUALA SUAMI, Natural Resources Canada COLLIN WEBER, Navigant Consulting**  **SARAH WIDDER, Pacific Northwest National Laboratory**  **ROLANDO WILLIAMS, SandenVendo America, Inc. SCOTT YOUNG, Lawrence Berkeley National**  **Laboratory**

*** = Participating telephonically**

### Page 3

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. 

### TABLE OF CONTENTS **Page**

**Welcome, Introductions and Opening Statements**  **Doug Brookman & Ashley Armstrong . . . . . . . 4**

**Regulatory History & Scope Elaina Present . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .11** 

**Test Procedure Amendments: Appendix A Sarah Widder . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .15** 

**Test Procedure Amendments: Appendix B Sarah Widder . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 121** 

### Page 4

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. 

### 1 

### P-R-O-C-E-E-D-I-N-G-S **2** 

### (9:19 a.m.) **3** 

### MR. BROOKMAN: Okay, let's begin. **4** 

### Good morning, everyone, and **5** 

### welcome. Are we connected to the internet? **6** 

### Yes? **7** 

### COURT REPORTER: Yes. **8** 

### FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Okay. Good **9** 

### morning, everyone. Welcome. This is the **10** 

### public meeting on the test procedure Notice of **11** 

### Proposed Rulemaking for Refrigerated Beverage **12** 

### Vending Machines. Today is September the **13** 

### 16th, 2014 here at the Forrestal Building in **14** 

### Washington, D.C.. **15** 

### My name is Doug Brookman from **16** 

### Public Solutions. It is so nice to see you **17** 

### this morning. **18** 

### Ashley will have welcoming **19** 

### remarks, Ashley Armstrong. **20** 

### MS. ARMSTRONG: Hi, everybody. My **21** 

### name is Ashley and I work for the Department **22** 

### of Energy. I oversee the test procedure

### Page 5

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. 

### 1 

### development. **2** 

### I would like to welcome you. We **3** 

### are running a little bit behind. So, we are **4** 

### going to skip some of the intro type stuff but **5** 

### you have in your packets. But I encourage you **6** 

### to participate. This is what this meeting is **7** 

### all about. Ask questions. Give us feedback. **8** 

### We are here to explain to you what **9** 

### we did, our proposals and why. And we are **10** 

### really looking forward to your data and **11** 

### feedback and your analysis. **12** 

### So, welcome and Doug will begin **13** 

### the meeting. **14** 

### MR. BROOKMAN: Than you. We **15** 

### always start with introductions. And I will **16** 

### start to my immediate left and just say your **17** 

### name and organizational affiliation. **18** 

### We do have microphones working in **19** 

### the room. I'm told they work fairly well but **20** 

### I would ask everyone to speak up. **21** 

### MR. STARR: I'm Louis Starr, **22** 

### Northwest Energy Efficiency Alliance.

### Page 6

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. 

### 1 

### MS. NOLL: Elizabeth Noll, **2** 

### National Resources Defense Council. **3** 

### MR. SUAMI: Mvuala Suami, Natural **4** 

### Resources Canada. **5** 

### MR. MITCHELL: Scott Mitchell, **6** 

### Southern California Edison, representing the **7** 

### California IOUs and also the Chair of ASHRAE **8** 

### Committee SPC 32.1 **9** 

### MR. HIEB: Larry Hieb, SandenVendo **10** 

### America. **11** 

### MR. WILLIAMS: Rolando Williams, **12** 

### SandenVendo America. **13** 

### MR. COLLINS: Jim Collins, **14** 

### Automated Merchandising Systems. **15** 

### MR. CASE: Dave Case, DOE. **16** 

### MS. BUTLER: Sarah Butler, DOE. **17** 

### MR. MAJETTE: Ron Majette, Project **18** 

### Lead, DOE. **19** 

### MS. ARMSTRONG: Ashley Armstrong, **20** 

### DOE. **21** 

### MR. WEBER: Collin Weber, Navigant **22** 

### Consulting.

### Page 7

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. 

### 1 

### MR. EDWARDS: David Edwards, **2** 

### Navigant Consulting. **3** 

### MR. LAU: Chris Lau, Navigant **4** 

### Consulting. **5** 

### MS. PRESENT: Elaina Present, **6** 

### Navigant Consulting. **7** 

### MS. WIDDER: Sara Widder, Pacific **8** 

### Northwest National Lab. **9** 

### MR. YOUNG: Michelle Niemeyer, **10** 

### Pacific Northwest National Laboratory. **11** 

### DR. COLLER: Scott Young, Lawrence **12** 

### Berkeley National Laboratory. **13** 

### FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: And over **14** 

### here? **15** 

### MS. SIACA: Siobhan Siaca, Senator **16** 

### Whitehouse. **17** 

### MS. ARMSTRONG: Thank you. **18** 

### MR. ROSENQUIST: Gregory **19** 

### Rosenquist, Lawrence Berkeley National **20** 

### Laboratory. **21** 

### FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: All of you **22** 

### received a packet of information, I hope.

### Page 8

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. 

### 1 

### There are more copies here if you need them. **2** 

### The agenda is on page two, if you will take a **3** 

### peek at that, actually page three. **4** 

### Immediately following **5** 

### this agenda review, there is an opportunity **6** 

### for brief opening statements by anyone who **7** 

### wishes to do so. Issues of concerns, thins **8** 

### you wish to raise here at the outset. **9** 

### Following that, a Regulatory **10** 

### History and Scope. Immediately following **11** 

### that, Test Procedure Amendments, Appendix A. **12** 

### We will take a break mid-morning, around about **13** 

### 10:45, 10:30, something like that. **14** 

### Following the return from the **15** 

### break, Test Procedure Amendments, Appendix B. **16** 

### And then discussion or presentation plus **17** 

### discussion on Small Business Impacts. An **18** 

### opportunity for closing remarks. Any issues **19** 

### that you wish to raise at that point, around **20** 

### about 11:55 A.M. **21** 

### Today's meeting on test **22** 

### procedures, is really the first half of a two-

### Page 9

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. 

### 1 meeting day that is proposed. **2 And then after lunch, the 3 Department is also going to host the Energy**  **4 Conservation Standards Preliminary Analysis 5 for Beverage Vending Machines, the standard**  **6 setting portion of that. So, that will 7 happen. We have two meetings running**  **8 concurrently and we have a lot of material 9 that we hope to get through this morning**  **10 before that commences. 11 So, that is the general plan.**  **12 Questions or comments on the general plan? I 13 see none.**  **14 I would ask for your 15 considerations. Please speak one at a time.**  **16 Please say your name for the record each time 17 you speak. There will be a complete**  **18 transcript of this meeting. If you could be 19 concise and share the air time, there is lots**  **20 to be said I am certain. 21 Please keep the focus here. If**  **22 you haven't turned your cell phone on silent**

### Page 10

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. 

### 1 

### mode, please do that at this point. Limit the **2** 

### sidebar conversations. **3** 

### Webinar participants, we welcome **4** 

### you. The Department of Energy is trying hard **5** 

### to make these meetings totally accessible to **6** 

### all. **7** 

### Webinar participants, please turn **8** 

### your phone on mute. Please raise your hand to **9** 

### be recognized to speak and we will see if we **10** 

### can hear you in the room. And if not, we will **11** 

### find some way to get your comments written and **12** 

### included in the conversation here. **13** 

### That is the preliminary stuff. If **14** 

### you will take a peek in your packet, just take **15** 

### a peek at slide five. Those listening via the **16** 

### webcast, I have covered that material. **17** 

### The purpose of the public meeting, **18** 

### I think is well-understood. **19** 

### MS. ARMSTRONG: Yes, we are just **20** 

### going to actually skip right ahead to slide **21** 

### 13, only because the ones we had before, just **22** 

### talk about generally our time line and that

### Page 11

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. 

### 1 

### kind of stuff. **2** 

### Elaina, are you going to start? **3** 

### MS. PRESENT: Okay, so regulatory **4** 

### history and authority. The regulatory history **5** 

### for this rulemaking starts with the Energy **6** 

### Policy and Conversation Act of 1975, which set **7** 

### forth a variety of provisions to improve the **8** 

### energy efficiency of various products and **9** 

### equipment. **10** 

### Part B of Title III provides for **11** 

### the "Energy Conservation Program for Consumer **12** 

### Products Other than Automobiles." And the **13** 

### part of that program directed DOE to establish **14** 

### energy conservation standards for beverage **15** 

### vending machines. **16** 

### Manufacturers of covered equipment **17** 

### must use the prescribed DOE test procedure as **18** 

### the basis for certifying to DOE that their **19** 

### equipment complies with the applicable energy **20** 

### conservation standards adopted under EPCA, and **21** 

### when making representations about the **22** 

### efficiency of the equipment.

### Page 12

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. 

### 1 

### DOE also must use this test **2** 

### procedure to determine whether the equipment **3** 

### complies with any relevant standards **4** 

### promulgated under EPCA. **5** 

### EPCA additionally requires that **6** 

### any test procedures prescribed or amended **7** 

### shall be reasonably designed to produce test **8** 

### results which measure energy efficiency, **9** 

### energy use, or estimated annual operating cost **10** 

### of a covered unit of equipment during a **11** 

### representative average use cycle or period of **12** 

### use and shall not be unduly burdensome to **13** 

### conduct. **14** 

### Additionally, EPCA requires that **15** 

### at least once every seven years, DOE review **16** 

### its test procedures for all covered products **17** 

### and either amend the test procedures or **18** 

### publish a determination in the Federal **19** 

### Register not to amend them. This requirement **20** 

### is the reason DOE is undertaking the current **21** 

### rulemaking. **22** 

### EPCA further provides a definition

### Page 13

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. 

### 1 

### for refrigerated bottled or canned beverage **2** 

### vending machine. The provided definition is: **3** 

### "The term 'refrigerated bottled or canned **4** 

### beverage vending machine means a commercial **5** 

### refrigerator that cools bottled or canned **6** 

### beverages and dispenses the bottled or canned **7** 

### beverages on payment." **8** 

### The BVM 2009 Final Rule further **9** 

### defines equipment classes within beverage **10** 

### vending machines. The defined classes are **11** 

### Class A, is a refrigerated bottled or canned **12** 

### beverage vending machine that is fully cooled **13** 

### and is not a combination vending machine. **14** 

### Class B is any beverage vending **15** 

### machine not considered to be Class A and also **16** 

### not a combination vending machine. **17** 

### And combination vending machines **18** 

### are beverage vending machines that also have **19** 

### separate non-refrigerated volumes for vending **20** 

### other non-"sealed beverage" merchandise. **21** 

### The current DOE test procedure was **22** 

### established by a final rule on December 8,

### Page 14

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. 

### 1 

### 2006, which we will refer to as the 2006 BVM **2** 

### test procedure final rule. It incorporated by **3** 

### reference two standards, the ANSI -- it should **4** 

### be ANSI/ASHRAE Standard 32.1-2004, "Methods of **5** 

### Testing for Rating Vending Machines for **6** 

### Bottled, Canned, or Other Sealed Beverages," **7** 

### as the primary method of test, with a few **8** 

### minor modifications. **9** 

### It also adopted ANSI/AHAM HRF-1- **10** 

### 2004 to calculate the refrigerated volume of **11** 

### beverage vending machines. **12** 

### In this Notice of Proposed **13** 

### Rulemaking, DOE is proposing to reorganize the **14** 

### BVM test procedure into a new Appendix A and **15** 

### Appendix B. **16** 

### Appendix A would be effective 30 **17** 

### days after publication of any test procedure **18** 

### Final Rule in the Federal Register and would **19** 

### contain several clarifications and amendments **20** 

### to the DOE test procedure. **21** 

### Appendix B would be effective with **22** 

### the compliance of any amended standards

### Page 15

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. 

### 1 

### promulgated as a result of the current Energy **2** 

### Conservation Standards rulemaking. And it **3** 

### would contain all of the clarifications and **4** 

### amendments incorporated in Appendix A, as well **5** 

### as provisions to account for the impact of low **6** 

### power modes. **7** 

### And now, Sarah. **8** 

### MS. WIDDER: Thanks, Elaina. **9** 

### FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: And just to **10** 

### be clear, we will take questions and comments **11** 

### as we are going along here. There are **12** 

### specific comment boxes but if you are moved to **13** 

### ask a question during the course of **14** 

### presentations, feel free to do so. **15** 

### Sarah. **16** 

### MS. WIDDER: Thank you, Doug and **17** 

### thank you, Elaina. So, Elaina gave a good **18** 

### overview of the type of equipment that we are **19** 

### going to be talking about today. And a **20** 

### general overview of the appendices, how DOE **21** 

### has split the appendices into Appendix A, **22** 

### which is intended to be used immediately with

### Page 16

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. 

### 1 

### existing energy conservation standards and **2** 

### then Appendix B that contains a few additional **3** 

### provisions that won't be required until any **4** 

### energy conservation standards are promulgated **5** 

### as a result of the rulemaking we would like to **6** 

### get to this afternoon. **7** 

### So, in light of that, I am going **8** 

### to move fairly quickly but feel free to **9** 

### provide comments, obviously, on anything that **10** 

### we are presenting. There will be issue boxes **11** 

### throughout the presentation and then you are **12** 

### also -- and those correspond to the issue **13** 

### boxes in the NOPR. **14** 

### So, to get started, Appendix A **15** 

### includes several clarifications. DOE believes **16** 

### that all of these clarifications do not affect **17** 

### the measured energy consumption of covered **18** 

### beverage vending machines, which is a Class A, **19** 

### Class B and combination machines that Elaina **20** 

### presented earlier. I have this list of 11 **21** 

### clarifications we will go through in detail in **22** 

### the subsequent slides but this is just a

### Page 17

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. 

### 1 

### summary of the general type of clarifications **2** 

### and amendment. **3** 

### Because DOE believes that these **4** 

### clarifications do not affect the measured **5** 

### energy use of covered beverage vending **6** 

### machines, manufacturers would use this **7** 

### Appendix A, as Elaina noted, effective 30 days **8** 

### after publication in the Federal Register to **9** 

### certify compliance with existing energy **10** 

### conservation standards and they would also be **11** 

### included in Appendix B. **12** 

### So, the first amendment in this **13** 

### case that DOE is proposing as part of the NOPR **14** 

### is to update the referenced method of test. **15** 

### Since the 2006 test procedure Final Rule **16** 

### adopted ASHRAE 32.1 2004 and the AHRAM HRF-1 **17** 

### for refrigerated volume, both those standards **18** 

### have been updated by their relevant industry **19** 

### groups and are actually currently under **20** 

### revision at this time. But there is a 32.1 **21** 

### 2010 version available from ASHRAE and an AHAM **22** 

### 2008 version available from AHAM.

### Page 18

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. 

### 1 

### DOE reviewed both these methods. **2** 

### The ASHRAE method was only minorly updated to **3** 

### incorporate some of the changes that made the **4** 

### test procedure, the ASHRAE test method more **5** 

### consistent with DOE's adopted test procedure **6** 

### Final Rule. And the equipment classification **7** 

### that DOE adopted was part of the Energy **8** 

### Conservation Standard Final Rule in 2009. So, **9** 

### it essentially aligned that ASHRAE test **10** 

### procedure with what DOE had done. **11** 

### It also incorporated in specific a **12** 

### section of the AHAM HRF-1-2004 standard as an **13** 

### Appendix C for the measurement of volume, **14** 

### which is what DOE had done in their 2006 en **15** 

### masse test procedure Final Rule. DOE found **16** 

### that method to be more appropriate than the **17** 

### method contained within the ASHRAE standard. **18** 

### And so referencing the AHAM method, ASHRAE has **19** 

### done the same now. So, that is consistent **20** 

### with DOE's existing test procedure for **21** 

### beverage vending machines. **22** 

### The AHAM method simplifies the

### Page 19

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. 

### 1 

### previous AHAM 2004 version. It combines **2** 

### Sections 4, 5, and 6 for measuring **3** 

### refrigerated volume of refrigerators, **4** 

### freezers, and refrigerator/freezers into one **5** 

### section. AHAM used to be very complicated and **6** 

### have a lot of specific requirements about what **7** 

### was included, what was excluded. And it is a **8** 

### lot more simple and straightforward of a **9** 

### method now. **10** 

### However, because those changes and **11** 

### specific inclusions or exclusions might change **12** 

### the refrigerated volume of specific beverage **13** 

### vending machines, DOE is electing or is **14** 

### proposing in this NOPR to update the reference **15** 

### method of test to ASHRAE 32.1-2010, including **16** 

### the reference of Appendix C for measurement of **17** 

### refrigerated volume, which would then remove **18** 

### the incorporation by reference of AHAM HRF-1- **19** 

### 2004 for the measurement of refrigerated **20** 

### volume. **21** 

### So, this is the first request for **22** 

### comment from interested parties. DOE is

### Page 20

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. 

### 1 

### requesting comment on updating the referenced **2** 

### method of test, specifically on updating the **3** 

### reference method of test for measurement of **4** 

### refrigerated volume to Appendix C contained in **5** 

### ASHRAE, rather than the HRF-1 test procedure **6** 

### and also any differences or comparison between **7** 

### the HRF-1-2008 method and Appendix C. DOE, in **8** 

### review, believes that the Appendix C contained **9** 

### in 32.1-2010 is more appropriate and more **10** 

### consistent with the method that is currently **11** 

### used to establish measurement of refrigerated **12** 

### volume for BVMs and requests comments on these **13** 

### items. **14** 

### FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Comments **15** 

### here, particularly on measurement of **16** 

### refrigerated volume. **17** 

### MS. WIDDER: Now, we're in written **18** 

### comments. DOE also appreciate just **19** 

### affirmative comments in agreeing with DOE's **20** 

### proposed method. But in light of time, we can **21** 

### sort of move forward. **22** 

### The second amendment that DOE is

### Page 21

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. 

### 1 

### considering as part of Appendix A is **2** 

### eliminating the requirement to test beverage **3** 

### vending machines at 90 degrees Fahrenheit and **4** 

### 65 percent plus or minus 5 relative humidity. **5** 

### And both of these ambient test conditions are **6** 

### contained within ASHRAE 32.1 standard. **7** 

### And there is no specific exclusion **8** 

### in DOE's test procedure of either of these **9** 

### ambient conditions. So, both of them are **10** 

### inherently required in the DOE test procedure. **11** 

### However, in the 2009 DOE energy conservation **12** 

### standards final rule, only the 75 degree **13** 

### Fahrenheit and 45 percent relative humidity **14** 

### ambient condition, and I am going to refer to **15** 

### that as just the 75 degree Fahrenheit ambient **16** 

### condition; the relative humidity requirements **17** 

### sort of goes with it, only that ambient **18** 

### condition was referenced in the rule and only **19** 

### testing at the 75 degree ambient condition is **20** 

### used for compliance with DOE's existing Energy **21** 

### Conservation Standard. The 90 degree **22** 

### Fahrenheit condition is not used. And,

### Page 22

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. 

### 1 

### therefore, DOE is considering removing the **2** 

### requirement to test beverage vending machines **3** 

### at 90 degree Fahrenheit from the DOE test **4** 

### procedure and requests comment on that **5** 

### proposal. **6** 

### FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Louis **7** 

### Starr. **8** 

### MR. STARR: Louis Starr from NEEA. **9** 

### I have a question. Are most manufacturers **10** 

### just going to test to 32.1 anyway, and that **11** 

### information they would gather? Would that **12** 

### information also be available to when they do **13** 

### the DOE test procedure or would they be doing **14** 

### those tests at separate times, specifically? **15** 

### MS. WIDDER: So, I will let **16** 

### manufacturers add to this. My understanding **17** 

### is that it would be half, just logically how **18** 

### you would test a beverage vending machine, it **19** 

### would be incremental, another incrementally **20** 

### like 50 percent additional burden or 100 **21** 

### percent additional burden, because you would **22** 

### have to condition the chamber and stabilize

### Page 23

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. 

### 1 

### the equipment the same way that you would for **2** 

### the 75 degree ambient conditions. So, it is **3** 

### not -- it is a significant incremental burden. **4** 

### Manufacturers may do that for voluntary **5** 

### programs like utility incentives, if that **6** 

### information was of interest or of interest to **7** 

### their customer. But it would no longer be **8** 

### required from a DOE perspective and I don't **9** 

### believe that that information is currently **10** 

### reported. It may be in their manufacturing **11** 

### literature but certainly not to DOE. **12** 

### FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Yes, **13** 

### please. **14** 

### MR. SUAMI: Mvuala Suami from **15** 

### Natural Resources Canada. I have a question. **16** 

### The reason not considering 90 degree, I don't **17** 

### want to jump to a combination machine but for **18** 

### Class A, some of them can be converted to a **19** 

### combination machine and divide the room to **20** 

### unrefrigerated and refrigerated. But DOE **21** 

### methodology is to test the worst case. **22** 

### My question is for Class B and

### Page 24

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. 

### 1 

### some of them are used outside. And the **2** 

### temperature of 90 was designed for those. And **3** 

### the worst case would be to test them at high **4** 

### temperature. **5** 

### So, why for Class A that can **6** 

### become converted into combination we test **7** 

### according to the worst case but for these **8** 

### Class B that are used outside, we don't test **9** 

### according to the worst case? **10** 

### MS. WIDDER: So, EPCA's **11** 

### requirement of DOE in creating test procedures **12** 

### is that they not necessarily be worst case but **13** 

### they are representative of the performance of **14** 

### the equipment under an average cycle of use. **15** 

### And so 75 degrees ambient was **16** 

### selected by DOE because although some Class B **17** 

### equipment can be installed outside, the **18** 

### majority, based on DOE's research, the **19** 

### majority of equipment, 85 percent, I think of **20** 

### Class B machines based on the information we **21** 

### have are installed outside and that 75 degree **22** 

### ambient condition --

### Page 25

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. 

### 1 

### MS. ARMSTRONG: Inside. **2** 

### MS. WIDDER: Inside, sorry. Thank **3** 

### you for that. Are installed inside. So, only **4** 

### a small percentage are outside. **5** 

### And that 75 degree ambient **6** 

### condition is representative of that inside **7** 

### environment that a lot of equipment are **8** 

### exposed to and is also, I mean it allows for **9** 

### a comparison between all equipment, a **10** 

### consistent test result that can be compared **11** 

### across equipment, which is the intent of the **12** 

### metric to determine which equipment are more **13** 

### or less efficient. **14** 

### I don't know if that answers your **15** 

### question. **16** 

### FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: We do have **17** 

### additional comments. The proposal to **18** 

### eliminate the requirement to conduct testing **19** 

### at 90 degrees Fahrenheit. **20** 

### Let me know, I would hope to hear **21** 

### from industry here, but if you think this is **22** 

### a sensible proposal.

### Page 26

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. 

### 1 

### Yes. **2** 

### MR. MITCHELL: Scott Mitchell from **3** 

### Southern California Edison. So, I am chairing **4** 

### the ASHRAE Committee that is in the process of **5** 

### revising the test method as well. And that **6** 

### group has kind of decided the same thing, that **7** 

### we would get rid of this test condition as **8** 

### well. **9** 

### So, as a consensus, and there **10** 

### hasn't been any push back on that at all, **11** 

### frankly, we are just waiting for the process. **12** 

### FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Thank you, **13** 

### Scott. That is helpful. Do you wish to **14** 

### comment? No? **15** 

### Louis. **16** 

### MR. STARR: I have a question **17** 

### about it. I was kind of curious. So, if **18** 

### ASHRAE eliminates that, basically, they **19** 

### maintain it at 32.1 but it is not a DOE test **20** 

### procedure. It would seem that, I mean people **21** 

### would skip testing it for the ASHRAE 32.1, you **22** 

### would just do the DOE test procedure.

### Page 27

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. 

### 1 So, it seems like by not aligning **2 those two, it potentially would create more 3 people going towards the DOE test procedure**  **4 and skipping the 32.1. So, I am kind of 5 curious why ASHRAE was -- kind of what their**  **6 thought process was there. 7 MR. MITCHELL: I think it is very**  **8 close to what Sarah was just sharing in that 9 it was a test that was required by the test**  **10 method but the information was not actually 11 being used for anything. And there is also**  **12 concerns that that condition doesn't 13 necessarily represent the average energy use**  **14 that is required. That is kind of an outlier 15 condition and yes, it is good to know that**  **16 information but, as far as using that for an 17 annual energy consumption or something like**  **18 that, that information really isn't used. 19 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Thank you,**  **20 Scott. 21 Additional comments here before I**  **22 move on? Moving on.**

### Page 28

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. 

### 1 

### MS. WIDDER: Okay, the third **2** 

### clarification in this case that DOE wanted to **3** 

### make more explicit or proposes to make more **4** 

### explicit in the DOE test procedure is the **5** 

### application of the DOE test procedure to **6** 

### combination beverage vending machines and **7** 

### specifically how to configure combination **8** 

### beverage vending machines for testing. **9** 

### DOE believes that the current test **10** 

### procedures and the amended test procedure as **11** 

### proposed in this NOPR are both appropriate for **12** 

### the evaluation of refrigerated volume, **13** 

### vendible capacity, and energy use of **14** 

### combination beverage vending machines, with a **15** 

### few clarifications about how to configure the **16** 

### machine. **17** 

### Specifically, the refrigerated **18** 

### compartment of the combination beverage **19** 

### vending machine would be the compartment that **20** 

### we are most concerned with, since that is the **21** 

### compartment that is performing both of the BVM **22** 

### functions, vending and refrigerating. So,

### Page 29

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. 

### 1 

### only that compartment would be considered in **2** 

### the determination of refrigerated volume, **3** 

### while the vendible capacity would still be **4** 

### representative of the entire vendible volume **5** 

### of the combination beverage vending machine, **6** 

### both the cooled compartment and the non**7** 

### refrigerated compartment. **8** 

### Only the refrigerated compartment **9** 

### of the combination vending machine would be **10** 

### fully loaded with standard test packages and **11** 

### standard products during the energy **12** 

### consumption test. And thus, only those **13** 

### temperatures from within the refrigerated **14** 

### compartment would be considered but any **15** 

### lighting or other energy-consuming features in **16** 

### the non-refrigerated compartment would still **17** 

### be fully energized to best represent the **18** 

### energy use of the equipment as installed in **19** 

### the field, in a representative manner. **20** 

### One thing I will note that the **21** 

### gentleman from Natural Resources Canada **22** 

### commented on earlier is a combination beverage

### Page 30

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. 

### 1 

### vending machine is explicitly a beverage **2** 

### vending machine that cannot be configured as **3** 

### a Class A or a Class B. And so to the extent **4** 

### that a specific beverage vending machine model **5** 

### can be configured as a Class A and fully **6** 

### cooled, that will be a Class A equipment. And **7** 

### a combination beverage vending machine would **8** 

### only be a beverage vending machine that has in **9** 

### its configuration both refrigerated and non**10** 

### refrigerated volumes. **11** 

### So, DOE requests comment on the **12** 

### application of the DOE, the existing and **13** 

### proposed DOE test procedure to combination **14** 

### beverage vending machine. **15** 

### FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: So, we will **16** 

### take comments. Okay. **17** 

### MS. WIDDER: Great. So, the next **18** 

### clarification that DOE is proposing to make **19** 

### more explicit in the DOE test procedure is **20** 

### specific requirements around the loading of **21** 

### test packages. The current BVM test procedure **22** 

### requires equipment to be loaded with the

### Page 31

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. 

### 1 

### maximum quantity of standard product, with **2** 

### standard test packages in each next-to-be**3** 

### vended position. And these figures at the **4** 

### bottom show specifically where that would be **5** 

### for typical Class A and typical Class B **6** 

### machines. **7** 

### A typical Class A machine will **8** 

### have a glass front and will be fully cooled **9** 

### such that all of the products along this **10** 

### vertical axis can be purchased by the customer **11** 

### or the consumer, in this case. And thus, all **12** 

### of these front, the products in the front **13** 

### would be standard test packages with **14** 

### thermocouples and these would be standard **15** 

### products. **16** 

### A Class B machine is typically a **17** 

### vertical style stack machine and the standard **18** 

### test packages would go at the bottom of the **19** 

### stack. **20** 

### Refrigerated beverage vending **21** 

### machines may be available in a variety of **22** 

### configurations and may be configured to vend

### Page 32

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. 

### 1 

### other refrigerated merchandise. DOE is **2** 

### proposing that the members clarify the DOE **3** 

### test procedure that is for equipment that is **4** 

### available for a variety of product storage **5** 

### configurations should be configured like we **6** 

### were talking about earlier with the difference **7** 

### between combination Class A equipment with the **8** 

### max -- to hold the maximum of sealed beverages **9** 

### that it is capable of accommodating. **10** 

### So, to the extent that beverage **11** 

### vending machines can be configured with a **12** 

### number of different types of spirals or **13** 

### horizontal rows, depending on what your **14** 

### customer wishes to vend, that you would **15** 

### configure the beverage vending machine to vend **16** 

### the maximum number of sealed beverages that it **17** 

### is capable of accommodating per manufacturer **18** 

### specifications and that the performance of **19** 

### beverage vending machines that differ only in **20** 

### placement and type of shelving may be **21** 

### represented as a single basic model for the **22** 

### purposes of compliance with DOE's energy

### Page 33

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. 

### 1 

### conservation standards. **2** 

### And just to add on to that, if **3** 

### manufacturers wish to make representations **4** 

### about the differences in energy consumption **5** 

### that might be associated with differences in **6** 

### shelving, the manufacturers could elect to **7** 

### certify those different shelving **8** 

### configurations as different basic models but **9** 

### that is not required. **10** 

### Further, DOE is proposing to **11** 

### clarify the standard product that would be **12** 

### loaded into these machines to make it more **13** 

### consistent across industry and test labs. **14** 

### Based on some testing that DOE has had done, **15** 

### it is DOE's experience that there is a little **16** 

### bit of variability among test labs in what **17** 

### they fill machines with to determine the **18** 

### energy consumption of covered beverage vending **19** 

### machines. **20** 

### Section 5 of ASHRAE, as **21** 

### incorporated by reference currently requires **22** 

### that the standard product shall be a 12-ounce

### Page 34

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. 

### 1 

### can for machines that are capable of **2** 

### dispensing 12-ounce cans and a standard **3** 

### product for machines that can't. You know **4** 

### whatever is specified by the manufacturer for **5** 

### equipment that can't vend cans. And it has no **6** 

### requirements around what that can should be **7** 

### filled with. **8** 

### DOE is proposing to clarify in two **9** 

### ways the construction of standard products. **10** 

### First, machines that are capable of vending **11** 

### 20-ounce bottles are becoming more and more **12** 

### common. So, DOE is proposing to adopt a **13** 

### requirement that machines capable of vending **14** 

### 20-ounce bottles be configured with 20-ounce **15** 

### bottles. That is retaining the ASHRAE **16** 

### requirement that beverage vending machines **17** 

### capable of vending 12-ounce cans vend 12-ounce **18** 

### cans and then also retaining the flexibility **19** 

### that DOE or that ASHRAE had previously had for **20** 

### machines that are not capable of holding 12- **21** 

### ounce cans or 20-ounce bottles to be the **22** 

### product specified by the manufacturer because

### Page 35

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. 

### 1 

### there is a lot of milk cartons or other things **2** 

### that beverage vending machines could be **3** 

### configured to vend. And it is important that **4** 

### we provide direct -- that we cover all of **5** 

### those options. **6** 

### The other requirement or **7** 

### specification that DOE is proposing here is **8** 

### the density of the liquid that is used to fill **9** 

### the cans. This can affect the thermal mass **10** 

### within the space and so DOE, as opposed to **11** 

### selecting a specific liquid which would be **12** 

### more restrictive on manufacturers, DOE is just **13** 

### electing to specify a density and a tolerance **14** 

### around that density that can be established **15** 

### really easily with a scale and a beaker or a **16** 

### volume measurement of some sort. **17** 

### DOE selected this density range **18** 

### because based on looking out at literature **19** 

### about density of liquids, it covers most test **20** 

### fluids currently in use. This includes DO **21** 

### water 50-50, glycol/water mixture, most **22** 

### liquids that would already be vended so, Coke,

### Page 36

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. 

### 1 

### juice. I'm not sure about dairy products but **2** 

### a lot of liquids that could currently be used **3** 

### to test beverage vending machines would fit in **4** 

### this density requirement. **5** 

### DOE is requesting comments on **6** 

### these clarifications around the **7** 

### characteristics of the standard product and **8** 

### the loading of beverage vending machines to **9** 

### hold the maximum number of sealed beverages, **10** 

### and specifically those standard products that **11** 

### DOE is proposing. **12** 

### FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Comments **13** 

### here? No comments here. **14** 

### MS. WIDDER: Okay. This third **15** 

### clarification goes with the two previous **16** 

### clarifications. With analyzing and proposing **17** 

### clarifications to the specification of the **18** 

### standard product, DOE also looked at the **19** 

### specifications of standard test packages that **20** 

### are standard products that have been modified **21** 

### to contain a thermocouple in the center of **22** 

### mass.

### Page 37

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. 

### 1 

### Currently, Section 3 of the ASHRAE **2** 

### 32.1 test method that is incorporated by **3** 

### reference, and this language is retained in **4** 

### the 2010 version, defines the standard test **5** 

### package, as I mentioned, a standard product **6** 

### that has been altered to include a **7** 

### temperature-measuring instrument at its center **8** 

### of mass. There is also tolerance requirements **9** 

### around that temperature measuring instrument. **10** 

### After clarifying the **11** 

### specifications for the standard product, DOE **12** 

### finds that there is no additional **13** 

### clarification necessary to the standard test **14** 

### package but requests comment on that finding. **15** 

### FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Are **16** 

### clarifications necessary or are these **17** 

### sufficient? I see some heads nodding but that **18** 

### doesn't show up on the record. **19** 

### It would be useful to get a **20** 

### comment or two, I think. Okay, proceed. **21** 

### MS. WIDDER: Written comments are **22** 

### also appreciated.

### Page 38

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. 

### 1 

### The next clarification in this **2** 

### case, and I have tried to be clear throughout **3** 

### which of these are clarifications to the **4** 

### existing test procedure or accommodating more **5** 

### explicit language into the DOE test procedure **6** 

### and which of those are actually amendments **7** 

### that just don't change the energy consumption **8** 

### of covered equipment. **9** 

### In this case, it is another **10** 

### clarification. The test procedure currently **11** 

### does not provide specific instructions about **12** 

### how to determine the next-to-vend beverage **13** 

### temperature. In ASRAE 32.1, the specific **14** 

### language as listed here on the screen, there **15** 

### is a table in the standard that basically says **16** 

### that throughout tests, that 36 plus or minus **17** 

### 1 should maintained throughout the test. And **18** 

### there has been some ambiguity in the field **19** 

### about what that throughout test really refers **20** 

### to, about whether it is a condition in which **21** 

### the average next-to-vend temperature in each **22** 

### standard test package is etween 37 and 35

### Page 39

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. 

### 1 

### degrees Fahrenheit temporally throughout the **2** 

### test and in each package or averaged across **3** 

### the packages throughout the test or is an **4** 

### average across space and time. Throughout the **5** 

### test means taking temperatures maintained in **6** 

### those standard test packages, each standard **7** 

### test package throughout the test and averaging **8** 

### all of the data that is collected during the **9** 

### test. And then that value has to lie between **10** 

### 36 plus or minus 1, between 35 and 37 but **11** 

### variations during the test procedure can **12** 

### exceed those tolerances in that second option. **13** 

### DOE discussed these options in the **14** 

### Framework document and received several **15** 

### comments from interested parties about how **16** 

### testing is currently done in industry and how **17** 

### it is interpreted in the field today. A lot **18** 

### of -- many interested parties noted that it **19** 

### was impractical and unnecessarily rigorous and **20** 

### really burdensome to think that a plus or **21** 

### minus 1 degree Fahrenheit tolerance could be **22** 

### maintained in each test package throughout the

### Page 40

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. 

### 1 

### test temporally, just due to current equipment **2** 

### designs, how the products are refrigerated. **3** 

### There is just variations that would occur **4** 

### within the machine naturally, as the equipment **5** 

### was designed to operate that would make the **6** 

### standard test package exceed those balances. **7** 

### DOE agrees with commenters that **8** 

### the average next-to-vend temperature should be **9** 

### both a spatial and a temporal average. This **10** 

### is consistent with the way other commercial **11** 

### refrigeration equipment is treated in the **12** 

### Department's test procedures and regulations **13** 

### to clarify that DOE is proposing to adopt this **14** 

### additional definition, which is also **15** 

### consistent with the term and definition that **16** 

### is used for other commercial refrigeration **17** 

### equipment. **18** 

### Integrated average temperature **19** 

### means the average temperature of all standard **20** 

### test package measurements in the next-to-vend **21** 

### beverage position take during the test, **22** 

### expressed in degrees Fahrenheit.

### Page 41

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. 

### 1 DOE requests comment on the **2 proposed definition and on whether the 3 proposed definition aligns with the standard**  **4 practice in industry or if any manufacturers 5 have been maintaining their standard test**  **6 package, temperature requirements to other 7 specifications.**  **8 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Jim? 9 MR. COLLINS: Jim Collins,**  **10 Automated Merchandising Systems. 11 Has DOE made any consideration of**  **12 the rate of sampling of those temperatures 13 throughout the test?**  **14 MS. WIDDER: The rate of -- like 15 how frequently temperature --**  **16 MR. COLLINS: How frequently do 17 you sample?**  **18 MS. WIDDER: -- measurements are 19 taken? I believe that there are**  **20 specifications in 32.1 that are 21 MS. ARMSTRONG: Once every three**  **22 minutes.**

### Page 42

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. 

### 1 

### MS. WIDDER: Yes, I believe. **2** 

### FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: I didn't **3** 

### hear what was said. **4** 

### MS. ARMSTRONG: If memory serves, **5** 

### it is once every three minutes. **6** 

### MS. WIDDER: I should have a copy **7** 

### of it with me. **8** 

### MS. ARMSTRONG: It's okay, we can **9** 

### look it up. **10** 

### MS. WIDDER: But anyway should we. **11** 

### I guess that is my question to you. Our **12** 

### assumption right now is that the current **13** 

### standard requires once every three minutes, **14** 

### roughly. That is off the top of our head. We **15** 

### can check it for you. But should we? Should **16** 

### we require something more often or less or **17** 

### more frequent? **18** 

### MR. MITCHELL: Scott Mitchell, **19** 

### California Edison. I don't think the current **20** 

### one has it specified. **21** 

### MS. WIDDER: Okay. **22** 

### MR. MITCHELL: We are talking

### Page 43

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. 

### 1 

### about that and I think we have agreed on one **2** 

### minute as being easily achievable. **3** 

### MS. WIDDER: Okay. **4** 

### MR. MITCHELL: But one of the **5** 

### other issues, the definition says it would **6** 

### have to be measured in each next-to-be-vended **7** 

### positions. For the glass-front machines that **8** 

### have many, many products, that can get quite **9** 

### burdensome. So, we were investigating the use **10** 

### of the sampling mechanism to maybe get half or **11** 

### 40 percent or something of the visible **12** 

### products and substitute that for measuring all **13** 

### of the individual products. **14** 

### And that may also help with one of **15** 

### the other issues we are going to talk about **16** 

### next, which is feeding the cables, the **17** 

### rotation cable to the refrigerated space. **18** 

### MS. WIDDER: Well, so DOE would **19** 

### appreciate written comments on those specific **20** 

### amendments that ASHRAE is considering for **21** 

### their testing criteria. **22** 

### MS. ARMSTRONG: So this is Ashley

### Page 44

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. 

### 1 

### from DOE. What is your timetable? I have a **2** 

### feeling you have finished your -- **3** 

### MR. MITCHELL: Man, that would **4** 

### have been nice if DOE finished. **5** 

### (Laughter.) **6** 

### MR. MITCHELL: We were initially **7** 

### trying to finish by January. I don't think **8** 

### that is likely anymore and it looks like it **9** 

### would be at least June maybe through October **10** 

### of next year before we are able to even have **11** 

### something done. **12** 

### MS. ARMSTRONG: So, that is **13** 

### comparable to our time line. I think my **14** 

### request at this point would be if there are **15** 

### specific provisions that you guys have done a **16** 

### lot of work and make a lot of progress that **17** 

### you would like DOE to consider as part of this **18** 

### rulemaking, if actually you would consider **19** 

### just submitting comments. They had done that **20** 

### previously where they hadn't been able to **21** 

### finish their process. **22** 

### MR. MITCHELL: Okay.

### Page 45

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. 

### 1 

### FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Okay, **2** 

### additional comments? No additional comments. **3** 

### MS. WIDDER: Okay. The next **4** 

### clarification that DOE is considering in this **5** 

### NOPR is a definition for "fully cooled." As **6** 

### Elaina presented earlier, the main **7** 

### distinguishing criterion between Class A and **8** 

### Class B equipment is whether the equipment is **9** 

### fully cooled. However, fully cooled is not **10** 

### currently defined. **11** 

### Based on previous discussion **12** 

### around the equipment class definitions, the **13** 

### intent is that fully cooled equipment would be **14** 

### actively maintaining 36 plus or minus 1 **15** 

### throughout the refrigerated space; whereas, a **16** 

### not fully cooled equipment or zone-cooled **17** 

### equipment would be directing that refrigerated **18** 

### air at a portion of refrigerated space. This **19** 

### is typical in the Class B stack machines, **20** 

### where only those selections at the bottom of **21** 

### the stack are going to be purchased by **22** 

### customers and are actively cooled and the rest

### Page 46

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. 

### 1 

### of the stack is not actively cooled. However, **2** 

### some heat transfer will obviously occur within **3** 

### the refrigerated space. **4** 

### In the BVM Framework document, DOE **5** 

### considered a definition of fully cooled that **6** 

### required each item in the machine or each **7** 

### standard test package to be maintained at an **8** 

### average temperature within two degrees of the **9** 

### average next-to-vend beverage temperature. **10** 

### So, that is a very strict **11** 

### requirement and interested parties commented **12** 

### as such. That there is Class A equipment that **13** 

### cannot, similar to the discussion we just had, **14** 

### cannot maintain that tight of a temperature **15** 

### tolerance throughout the machine, either **16** 

### vertically or horizontally within the spiral. **17** 

### Based on the comments received, **18** 

### DOE is proposing the following definition for **19** 

### fully cooled. I will just read it aloud. **20** 

### Fully cooled means a condition in **21** 

### which the refrigerated system of a beverage **22** 

### vending machine cools products throughout the

### Page 47

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. 

### 1 

### entire refrigerated volume of a machine, **2** 

### instead of being directed at a fraction or a **3** 

### zone of the refrigerated volume, as measured **4** 

### by the average temperature of the standard **5** 

### test packages and the furthest from the next**6** 

### to-vend positions being no more than 10 **7** 

### degrees Fahrenheit above the integrated **8** 

### average temperature of the standard test **9** 

### packages. **10** 

### So, breaking that into pieces, **11** 

### this first part of fully cooled refers to the **12** 

### intent of fully cooled, which is whether or **13** 

### not the equipment is intended to cool the **14** 

### entire refrigerated volume or a fraction or a **15** 

### zone. However, that is not quantifiable **16** 

### language. And so from an enforcement **17** 

### perspective and so that there can be **18** 

### consistency and like a line in the sand so DOE **19** 

### can determine Class A or Class B equipment **20** 

### where there might be some confusion, there **21** 

### needs to be a test in a clear, unambiguous **22** 

### determination criteria to figure out if you

### Page 48

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. 

### 1 

### are a Class A or a Class B. **2** 

### So, that is where the second part **3** 

### comes from. The idea is, and I think I have **4** 

### some diagrams here -- oh, this is just -- yes, **5** 

### we need a clear unambiguous criteria to **6** 

### determine the appropriate equipment class. **7** 

### So, here are some pictures that **8** 

### gave us a sense of what that bottom part is **9** 

### getting at. DOE is proposing that standard **10** 

### test packages would also be placed at the **11** 

### furthest from next-to-vend beverage positions, **12** 

### which in this shelf-style machine would be at **13** 

### the back four corners of the equipment and **14** 

### that the average of the spatial and temporal **15** 

### average of these yellow furthest from next-to**16** 

### vend standard test packages would be compared **17** 

### to the integrated average temperature, which **18** 

### we just defined, of the traditional standard **19** 

### test packages in the machine. And if those **20** 

### temperatures were more than 10 degrees apart, **21** 

### then this would be a zone-cooled machine and **22** 

### if they are less than 10 degrees apart, this

### Page 49

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. 

### 1 

### is a fully cooled machine. **2** 

### Similar for a stack-style machine, **3** 

### the furthest from next-to-vend standard test **4** 

### package positions would go at the top of the **5** 

### stack, furthest away from the standard test **6** 

### packages at the bottom of the stack. And if **7** 

### the difference between those two averages is **8** 

### less than or equal to 10 degrees, then that **9** 

### equipment is fully cooled. **10** 

### DOE requests comment on the **11** 

### definition of "fully cooled." Oh, the one **12** 

### other thing that is worth noting, on this **13** 

### side, I don't know about the other side, but **14** 

### this is an option verification test. So, DOE **15** 

### is not proposing to require these yellow **16** 

### furthest from next-to-vend standard test **17** 

### package positions be done in every DOE test. **18** 

### That data does not need to be submitted to **19** 

### DOE. This is a test that manufacturers and **20** 

### DOE can do to verify equipment classification. **21** 

### But it will not be required for a full and **22** 

### complete test, conduct of the DOE test

### Page 50

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. 

### 1 

### procedure. **2** 

### So, this is an option test. It is **3** 

### not required but it is what DOE will use to **4** 

### establish equipment classifications from an **5** 

### enforcement testing perspective. That is one **6** 

### other thing that is worth noting. **7** 

### So, with that, DOE requests **8** 

### comment on the definition of "fully cooled" **9** 

### and the optional verification test procedure, **10** 

### both the requirements in it and the fact that **11** 

### it is optional. **12** 

### FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Comments? **13** 

### MR. HIEB: Yes, Larry Hieb, **14** 

### SandenVendo America. **15** 

### FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Larry, **16** 

### please say your name for the record. **17** 

### MR. HIEB: Larry Hieb. **18** 

### FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Thank you. **19** 

### MR. HIEB: My concern with this **20** 

### proposal would be that it does allow for the **21** 

### manufacturers, I guess, to reconfigure what **22** 

### would normally be a glass-front vending

### Page 51

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. 

### 1 

### machine with fully cooled definition to be a **2** 

### zone cooled unit, if we were able to more **3** 

### target the cooled air at the next-to-vend **4** 

### packages and, therefore, allow a higher than **5** 

### 10 degree differential between the last-to**6** 

### vend products and, therefore, take advantage **7** 

### of a higher energy allotment or allowance for **8** 

### the Class B machines in what would normally be **9** 

### a Class A machine. **10** 

### MS. WIDDER: That is correct. The **11** 

### standards are currently under verbiage. So, **12** 

### that is just something to keep in mind. **13** 

### MS. ARMSTRONG: This is Ashley **14** 

### from DOE. That comment is great. **15** 

### Our intention with this is that we **16** 

### want to come up with a way. We have had **17** 

### manufacturers come to us and say you have **18** 

### distinctions for Class A and Class B machines **19** 

### but we have noticed some products kind of **20** 

### doing just what you discussed, perhaps being **21** 

### implemented in the field as Class A machines **22** 

### when they are tested and certified as Class

### Page 52

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. 

### 1 

### B machines. **2** 

### So, we are asking, I guess this **3** 

### was our proposal for a definitive way to test. **4** 

### And I agree, it has its own faults and merits. **5** 

### So, maybe to turn the question around to you, **6** 

### how would you do it better? **7** 

### MR. HIEB: Well, I would think the **8** 

### physical, that stacking method of product **9** 

### would be more appropriate or more in line with **10** 

### the differentiation between the product class **11** 

### in the industry. Horizontal shelf-style **12** 

### vending machines versus a vertical stacked **13** 

### products. **14** 

### MS. WIDDER: Okay. **15** 

### MS. ARMSTRONG: Anybody else have **16** 

### any thoughts on that one? **17** 

### MR. HIEB: And I guess the only **18** 

### other thought I would have is there really a **19** 

### need to classify A and B distinctively **20** 

### different, since we now have a 75 degree **21** 

### common test specification. **22** 

### MS. ARMSTRONG: So, I think that

### Page 53

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. 

### 1 

### is a great topic of conversation for this **2** 

### afternoon. Obviously, since we have standards **3** 

### for A and B now, there is a need in the near**4** 

### term. And so we have amended standards later **5** 

### but we will probably discuss whether there is **6** 

### a continuing need for a distinction between A **7** 

### and B machines in the standards, especially **8** 

### this afternoon in our product classes. **9** 

### FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Thank you. **10** 

### Louis. **11** 

### MR. STARR: Louis Starr, NEEA. **12** 

### So, the 10 degrees that you ended **13** 

### up coming up with, what was the basis for **14** 

### that? **15** 

### MS. WIDDER: The basis for that **16** 

### was comments submitted by interested parties, **17** 

### specifically, AMS suggested 10 degrees **18** 

### Fahrenheit. **19** 

### MR. STARR: A follow-on question. **20** 

### MS. WIDDER: Okay. **21** 

### MR. STARR: Maybe I am asking you **22** 

### to provide some background on how we maybe we

### Page 54

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. 

### 1 

### could get ideas. It seems the conflict may be **2** 

### with some concerns the other manufacturer had. **3** 

### MR. COLLINS: Okay, Jim Collins, **4** 

### AMS. And I will just say during the last **5** 

### meeting in June of 2013, that was a number **6** 

### that I just threw out out of my head. I have **7** 

### no empirical data. It was just a number that **8** 

### I guessed. **9** 

### FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: And Jim, **10** 

### since then, has there been any additional **11** 

### thing that causes you to think that is a good **12** 

### number? **13** 

### MR. COLLINS: I have not **14** 

### researched that number by test or other means **15** 

### to decide whether that is a good number or **16** 

### not. **17** 

### FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Okay, thank **18** 

### you. **19** 

### MS. WIDDER: I will add on to that **20** 

### DOE would appreciate that kind of data, such **21** 

### that it is available, if DOE were to continue **22** 

### to use a temperature-based criteria to

### Page 55

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. 

### 1 

### establish equipment classifications. That **2** 

### kind of data would be very valuable. **3** 

### FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: We have a **4** 

### question. Arshak Zakarian, he asks, how would **5** 

### they like to see them classified instead? **6** 

### MS. WIDDER: Them, meaning the **7** 

### manufacturers? **8** 

### FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: I think so, **9** 

### yes. **10** 

### MR. HIEB: Beverage vending **11** 

### machine. **12** 

### FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Just a **13** 

### single -- **14** 

### MR. HIEB: Yes. **15** 

### FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: -- **16** 

### designation, no two classes. **17** 

### MR. HIEB: Yes. **18** 

### FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Okay. **19** 

### Okay. And as Ashley said, we will get into **20** 

### this in-depth this afternoon. **21** 

### Any additional questions you have **22** 

### at this point, Sarah?

### Page 56

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. 

### 1 

### MS. WIDDER: No. **2** 

### FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Okay, we **3** 

### are moving on. **4** 

### MS. WIDDER: Okay. The next **5** 

### clarification that DOE is proposing as part of **6** 

### this test procedure NOPR is specifically how **7** 

### the thermocouples that are contained within **8** 

### the standard test packages, how that **9** 

### thermocouple wire should be run through the **10** 

### beverage vending machine. DOE has encountered **11** 

### some instances where the thermocouple wire is **12** 

### run through the door, the dispensing door of **13** 

### the beverage vending machine, which comprises **14** 

### the thermal integrity of the unit and is not **15** 

### representative of how the equipment is **16** 

### designed to operate in a field. As such, DOE **17** 

### is considering specific language that would **18** 

### propose that the thermocouple wire be run **19** 

### through the door gasket and not through the **20** 

### dispensing door, in an attempt to limit the **21** 

### air exchange between the interior refrigerated **22** 

### air and the exterior ambient.

### Page 57

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. 

### 1 MS. ARMSTRONG: So, just to **2 clarify, the current DOE specification is 3 silent on this.**  **4 MS. WIDDER: Yes. 5 MS. ARMSTRONG: So, currently, we**  **6 understand that different methods are used, 7 one being feeding through the door, one being**  **8 feeding through the front, one 9 being actually drilling a hole through the**  **10 side of the vending machine. 11 So, you know all those methods,**  **12 under the current procedure because it is 13 silent, are seemingly allowable ways.**  **14 DOE has gotten some feedback that 15 there may be a one method is better than the**  **16 other. If we go down the pathway, which we 17 have, and we are proposing a specific method,**  **18 or at least limiting a specific method, that 19 would just cut any other methods that are**  **20 currently being used. Just so you are aware. 21 But currently there are a variety**  **22 of different methods all allowable under the**

### Page 58

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. 

### 1 

### current standard. **2** 

### FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: So, if you **3** 

### have comments here, that would be helpful if **4** 

### you think that forecloses options for you or **5** 

### whether it doesn't matter much, that would be **6** 

### helpful to know. **7** 

### Scott. **8** 

### MR. MITCHELL: Scott Mitchell, **9** 

### Southern California Edison. **10** 

### The current revision we have had a **11** 

### language that it is not specific as to how it **12** 

### should be accomplished but it says that it **13** 

### should be accomplished in a way that doesn't **14** 

### hurt the thermal performance of the machine. **15** 

### MS. ARMSTRONG: So, I will **16** 

### challenge you on that and say for DOE's **17** 

### purposes, how would you write that? **18** 

### MR. MITCHELL: Yes. I don't have **19** 

### an answer to that one. **20** 

### MS. ARMSTRONG: So, I mean that's **21** 

### what we are going for, though, is something **22** 

### that is some type of mutually understandable

### Page 59

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. 

### 1 

### method that we all can agree this is either **2** 

### the way or the ways collectively that should **3** 

### be that wouldn't, I guess, intrude upon the **4** 

### thermal or compromise the thermal envelope. **5** 

### MS. WIDDER: It is the same **6** 

### intent. It is just DOE needs a method that **7** 

### you can identify a test that is not done, **8** 

### mostly that is not done in accordance with **9** 

### that requirement. **10** 

### FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: So, **11** 

### additional written comments here would be **12** 

### helpful, perhaps. **13** 

### Okay, yes, Jim. **14** 

### MR. COLLINS: Jim Collins, AMS. **15** 

### My suggestion might be that with the **16** 

### information provided to DOE, this particular **17** 

### setup be provided as well. I think it is in **18** 

### the manufacturer's best interest when he is **19** 

### doing his own internal testing or having a **20** 

### third-party do it, that he arrange the **21** 

### thermocouples to be the least disruptive **22** 

### possible and make the equipment perform to the

### Page 60

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. 

### 1 

### best. **2** 

### Because there is such a wide **3** 

### variety of different machines, I think it is **4** 

### going to be very difficult to create a **5** 

### standard that will effectively address all the **6** 

### different means that might be used to get **7** 

### those thermocouples out. **8** 

### FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: And so the **9** 

### manufacturer or the testing facility will **10** 

### simply cite how they did it. **11** 

### MS. WIDDER: But so to that point, **12** 

### how would DOE go about determining whether or **13** 

### not what the manufacturer submitted was **14** 

### acceptable or not? **15** 

### MS. ARMSTRONG: I think what you **16** 

### are asking though is basically that DOE allow **17** 

### whatever the manufacturer would like to use **18** 

### such that it meets the intent of the language **19** 

### so that the manufacturer is willing to tell **20** 

### DOE what that is. **21** 

### I see one issue, a couple of **22** 

### issues. One is if DOE were to pull your

### Page 61

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. 

### 1 

### machine and test it, would DOE then have to **2** 

### use the same or would anything work for DOE? **3** 

### MR. COLLINS: Again, I would **4** 

### suggest that they would use the test method as **5** 

### used by the manufacturer. **6** 

### MS. ARMSTRONG: And so in certain **7** 

### cases, DOE has found that manufacturers are **8** 

### using destructive is not the right word, but **9** 

### they will drill holes. They will use those **10** 

### methods. And that is something that DOE **11** 

### typically does not do. We try not to **12** 

### compromise the machine, the equipment itself, **13** 

### just to instrument. **14** 

### So, I would ask, in those cases, **15** 

### what would you like DOE to do? **16** 

### MR. COLLINS: I guess to do a fair **17** 

### test, destroy it if you need to. In other **18** 

### words, as a manufacturer, we wouldn't take a **19** 

### machine and run the bundle of thermocouples **20** 

### through the vend door and leave that exposed **21** 

### to ambient air because it would increase our **22** 

### ambient appreciably. So, we are going to do

### Page 62

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. 

### 1 

### it in the most energy efficient manner to do **2** 

### so. Since everything we add to do this **3** 

### degrades from the actual performance in the **4** 

### field, this is additional measurement **5** 

### equipment that isn't normally there. Why not **6** 

### allow us to do it in a means we determine is **7** 

### best for the particular design involved? **8** 

### FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Okay, thank **9** 

### you. **10** 

### Sir, do you have a comment? **11** 

### MR. WILLIAMS: Rolando Williams, **12** 

### SandenVendo. **13** 

### I think with the way Jim put it, **14** 

### just like with our glass front, we have 50 **15** 

### shelves, 50 trays on it. You run 50 **16** 

### thermocouples. During my tests, the best **17** 

### performance if I route thermocouples certain **18** 

### locations under these to not interfere with **19** 

### the air flow. And then I had to do a hole **20** 

### through the kick panel to route it out. But **21** 

### it has to be done that way to get the intent **22** 

### of the machine for the energy consumption

### Page 63

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. 

### 1 

### without influences from the thermocouples. **2** 

### FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Thank you. **3** 

### We have a couple of individuals joining us **4** 

### online that wish to comment. Let's see if **5** 

### this works. Mike Mau is the first person who **6** 

### has requested to speak. **7** 

### Mike, if you will unmute your **8** 

### phone and speak clearly, we will, hopefully, **9** 

### hear you in the room. **10** 

### MR. MAU: Hello, Mike Mau from **11** 

### Royal Vendors. **12** 

### FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: You sound **13** 

### good. Keep going. **14** 

### MR. MAU: I believe having this is **15** 

### probably one of the worst ways possible. Most **16** 

### machines are going to have vandal panels, **17** 

### which will cover up any access to the back of **18** 

### the machine and we won't be able to cover up **19** 

### major air leaks there. It won't be possible. **20** 

### So, we need to, we haven't **21** 

### reviewed this. This is a giant air leak and **22** 

### that will be a negative to the operation of

### Page 64

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. 

### 1 

### the machine. **2** 

### MS. WIDDER: How do you test your **3** 

### equipment, Mike? How do you run the **4** 

### thermocouples? **5** 

### MR. MAU: On our stack machine, **6** 

### there are refrigeration lines run up through **7** 

### the base bottom. And so there is actually a **8** 

### cutout there with thermocouples, where we run **9** 

### up through there and let it cool. Then there **10** 

### is a panel on the bottom, which can be removed **11** 

### and run through there and that is normally **12** 

### placed back and placed over that gasket. **13** 

### I think the most important thing **14** 

### for testing these is that all the tests need **15** 

### to seal off any exchange of air between the **16** 

### interior of the machine and the exterior of **17** 

### the machine. And that can be done. That is **18** 

### the way that we -- that is how we do it here. **19** 

### FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Okay, thank **20** 

### you, Mike. **21** 

### We also have a question or a **22** 

### comment from Subarna Malakar. Please un-mute

### Page 65

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. 

### 1 

### your phone and let's hope to hear you in the **2** 

### room. **3** 

### MR. MALAKAR: Okay. We are here **4** 

### at Crane Merchandising Systems. The thing is **5** 

### that we should be able to decide which method **6** 

### is best for us. And on page 44 of your **7** 

### presentation, I think that bullet one and two **8** 

### are sufficient. I don't think we need the **9** 

### third bullet. **10** 

### FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Okay, thank **11** 

### you Subarna. **12** 

### FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Thank you **13** 

### for that. **14** 

### MS. WIDDER: I have two follow-up **15** 

### questions that don't need to be responded to **16** 

### now. I think in response to the suggestion, **17** 

### again, DOE needs a method to confirm whether **18** 

### or not those first two bullets have been met. **19** 

### So, that is just something to consider. **20** 

### Perhaps photo documentation or instructions **21** 

### that accompany any certification would be **22** 

### sufficient in this case. And there would be

### Page 66

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. 

### 1 

### some amount of interpretation left but then, **2** 

### in any enforcement testing, DOE would be able **3** 

### to use the same method as the manufacturer to **4** 

### ensure the thermal integrity of their machine. **5** 

### The second question that I would **6** 

### really appreciate comments from on **7** 

### manufacturers is whether or not submitting **8** 

### that additional documentation would be **9** 

### burdensome. That is something we will get to **10** 

### it later on that we also have to account for **11** 

### in the test procedure is the burden associated **12** 

### with additional test procedure amendments or **13** 

### reporting requirements. And so that would be **14** 

### something we would want to consider and **15** 

### specific numbers, actually, would be really **16** 

### comfortable, how long it would take you to **17** 

### prepare such documentation. **18** 

### FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Do we have **19** 

### final comments here on placement of **20** 

### thermocouples? These comments have been very **21** 

### helpful. Additional written comments would be **22** 

### even more helpful. Additional comments before

### Page 67

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. 

### 1 

### we move on? **2** 

### MS. WIDDER: Okay. The next **3** 

### amendment in this case that DOE is considering **4** 

### or is proposing in this NOPR is a definition **5** 

### and test requirements for equipment that **6** 

### cannot currently meet the specified 36 plus or **7** 

### minus 1 degree Fahrenheit interior temperature **8** 

### requirement so that integrated average **9** 

### temperature of 36 plus or minus 1, there may **10** 

### be some equipment that cannot operate that **11** 

### low. And for those models, those beverage **12** 

### vending machine are currently still covered by **13** 

### the beverage vending machine test procedure **14** 

### and standards, such that they meet the **15** 

### definition of refrigerated bottled or canned **16** 

### beverage machine but they cannot be tested by **17** 

### the DOE test procedure. And as such, must **18** 

### currently request a waiver. **19** 

### DOE is proposing to accommodate **20** 

### such equipment that cannot be tested by **21** 

### testing the equipment at the lowest **22** 

### application product temperature and that is

### Page 68

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. 

### 1 

### the lowest temperature setting the equipment **2** 

### is capable of maintaining consistently **3** 

### throughout the test. This is often the lowest **4** 

### temperature setting on the thermostat. I mean **5** 

### when DOE is testing this for enforcement, it **6** 

### will just turn down the thermostat all the **7** 

### way. So, if that is not the best way to **8** 

### determine the lowest application product **9** 

### temperature, DOE would also appreciate **10** 

### comments on that. **11** 

### DOE is proposing this lowest **12** 

### application product temperature definition: **13** 

### the lowest integrated average temperature **14** 

### means -- or the lowest application product **15** 

### temperature means the lowest integrated **16** 

### average temperature a basic model is capable **17** 

### of maintaining so as to comply with the **18** 

### temperature stabilization requirements **19** 

### specified in ASHRAE Section 7.2.2.2, which is **20** 

### currently how temperatures have to be **21** 

### maintained and how stabilization is determined **22** 

### in ASHRAE 32.1.

### Page 69

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. 

### 1 

### This is, in general, an intent **2** 

### consistent with the lowest application product **3** 

### temperature definition that is adopted for **4** 

### commercial refrigeration equipment except for **5** 

### in that case the stabilization requirements of **6** 

### ASHRAE 72 are referenced. **7** 

### These are just a few **8** 

### clarifications on this provision. All other **9** 

### temperature -- all other requirements of the **10** 

### DOE test procedure would still have to be met **11** 

### and maintained, except for maintenance of the **12** 

### interior -- the integrated average temperature **13** 

### of 36 plus or minus 1. In this case, it would **14** 

### be the lowest application product temperature **15** 

### plus or minus one. **16** 

### Equipment tested and certified **17** 

### would be required to meet the applicable **18** 

### standard for that equipment. And I already **19** 

### mentioned this is similar to CRE. **20** 

### DOE is requesting comment from **21** 

### interested parties on the proposed definition, **22** 

### on the proposed test procedure for such

### Page 70

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. 

### 1 

### equipment that cannot be tested at 36 plus or **2** 

### minus 1, not intended to operate there. **3** 

### Also, I will note this middle one, **4** 

### specifically how that lowest application **5** 

### product temperature might be best determined. **6** 

### I mentioned that, based on the equipment **7** 

### designs we have seen, the most consistent way, **8** 

### especially for DOE who is not a manufacturer, **9** 

### would be to just turn the thermostat down all **10** 

### the way. DOE is interested if there is any **11** 

### machines that aren't equipped with thermostats **12** 

### or for which that might not be the most **13** 

### appropriate method. **14** 

### I think that is it. **15** 

### FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Yes, Jim? **16** 

### MR. COLLINS: Jim Collins, AMS. **17** 

### What considerations, then, would be made for **18** 

### the MDEC machines that run like my machines **19** 

### would run warmer than 36 degrees? **20** 

### MS. WIDDER: None. As referenced **21** 

### on this slide, that equipment would still be **22** 

### required to meet the applicable conservation

### Page 71

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. 

### 1 

### standard without modification. So, the same **2** 

### standard would apply to that equipment. **3** 

### Thermodynamically, you would expect that **4** 

### equipment to use slightly less energy, have a **5** 

### lower MDEC than a similar piece of equipment **6** 

### that can be maintained at 36. And DOE is not **7** 

### familiar with these machines being incredibly **8** 

### common. So, there is some equipment that **9** 

### can't meet 36 but it is a small niche market. **10** 

### And as such, DOE is proposing in this test **11** 

### procedure that they would just meet the same **12** 

### standard. **13** 

### FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: And DOE has **14** 

### specified that they intend to just crank it **15** 

### down all the way. And I hope that is still **16** 

### working here. **17** 

### MR. COLLINS: Jim Collins, AMS. **18** 

### Yes, there are machines where the lowest **19** 

### temperature setting is 40 degrees. So, to **20** 

### make the test today, we have to fit special **21** 

### software to allow you to set it that cold. **22** 

### FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Uh-huh.

### Page 72

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. 

### 1 

### Okay. **2** 

### MS. WIDDER: I have a follow-up **3** 

### question on that, actually. Is that specific **4** 

### to AMS or is that common for other **5** 

### manufacturers that they are as intended in a **6** 

### field not able to meet 36? **7** 

### MR. HIEB: Larry Hieb from **8** 

### SandenVendo. And no, all of our equipment is **9** 

### designed for 36 average product temperature. **10** 

### MS. WIDDER: Okay, thank you. **11** 

### FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Louis. **12** 

### MR. STARR: Louis Starr, NEEA. **13** 

### So, it does kind of sort of what you are **14** 

### alluding to as the thermodynamic, since you **15** 

### are not having to go as far as delta t in **16** 

### parenthesis 36 to 40, that is roughly about **17** 

### ten percent less just in thermodynamic energy. **18** 

### I'm not sure how it translates into actual **19** 

### refrigeration energy but there could be a **20** 

### point at which it actually does start to use **21** 

### -- in other words, you could have an energy **22** 

### hog but it appears to use the same energy as

### Page 73

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. 

### 1 

### the compliant. **2** 

### Is there a thought of maybe **3** 

### adjusting that or have you considered that **4** 

### approach? **5** 

### MS. WIDDER: So, that is certainly **6** 

### something that DOE has considered. I think **7** 

### the justification for establishing, in that **8** 

### case, either a standard that is a function of **9** 

### integrated average temperature or a separate **10** 

### equipment class for different temperature **11** 

### classifications of equipment. **12** 

### The justification for that would **13** 

### be the extent to which equipment are **14** 

### certifying with this lowest application **15** 

### product temperature provision. **16** 

### So, to the extent that there is a **17** 

### large number of models that are -- it is not **18** 

### DOE's understanding that a large number of **19** 

### models would submit with the lowest **20** 

### application product temperature. As part of **21** 

### this provision, manufacturers, when they are **22** 

### submitting their MDEC, would be required to --

### Page 74

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. 

### 1 

### or their certification reports to DOE would **2** 

### also be required to submit the integrated **3** 

### average product temperature or, if they use **4** 

### the lowest application product temperature, **5** 

### what that lowest application product **6** 

### temperature would be. **7** 

### And so then, we will be able to -- **8** 

### and this is effective 30 days after **9** 

### publication in the Federal Register. So, we **10** 

### will be able to right away after certification **11** 

### is required for BVMs, figure out how common it **12** 

### is that equipment need to use this provision **13** 

### and maybe consider something like that if it **14** 

### is, in fact, more prevalent than DOE currently **15** 

### understands. **16** 

### MR. STARR: So it sounds like, **17** 

### essentially, you are not sure there is a lot **18** 

### of equipment that is really going to be using, **19** 

### I don't want to say waivers, but this **20** 

### procedure to do it so you are not concerned **21** 

### about it. **22** 

### If you get an update of that and

### Page 75

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. 

### 1 

### you see that there is a problem or you see **2** 

### that kind of the balance we just talked about **3** 

### in terms of energy, you start seeing **4** 

### inconsistency, then there may be a thought of **5** 

### reviewing that to see if one -- but you don't **6** 

### know that until you collect the data. Right? **7** 

### MS. WIDDER: Right, exactly. **8** 

### FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Subarna **9** 

### Malakar has a question or comment. Subarna, **10** 

### please go ahead. **11** 

### MR. MALAKAR: Okay, we just want **12** 

### to make a comment, we here at Crane **13** 

### Merchandising Systems again. **14** 

### FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Yes. **15** 

### MR. MALAKAR: We just want to make **16** 

### comment that our machines are capable of going **17** 

### well below 36. And the question that we have **18** 

### here is if you are allowed to just dispense **19** 

### temperature other than 36 and allowed to use **20** 

### the same formula, what good does it do? **21** 

### What is the benefit of doing **22** 

### testing if you have a 35 in same category?

### Page 76

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. 

### 1 

### MS. WIDDER: So first I will **2** 

### clarify that this lowest application product **3** 

### temperature provision is only applicable to **4** 

### machines that cannot meet 36. So, for **5** 

### example, if DOE were to test one of your **6** 

### equipment that can be turned to 36 or well **7** 

### below it and you submitted a certification **8** 

### energy measurement at other than 36, that **9** 

### equipment would not be in compliance. So, if **10** 

### you can test at 36, you have to test at 36. **11** 

### This is only for equipment that **12** 

### cannot meet the 36 plus or minus 1 temperature **13** 

### requirement. And as previously mentioned, DOE **14** 

### is not aware that that is a significant number **15** 

### of models but will continue to collect data **16** 

### and monitor that. This is based on just **17** 

### looking at manufacturer literature and what is **18** 

### advertised as an operating range for equipment **19** 

### that is available on the market today. **20** 

### And actually, DOE would accept **21** 

### comment from manufacturers, if you are aware **22** 

### of a significant number of models or

### Page 77

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. 

### 1 

### manufacturers or machines that are available **2** 

### but can't meet 36, it might be something that **3** 

### is worth considering in the associated energy **4** 

### conservation standard rulemaking. **5** 

### So, the reason we are not **6** 

### considering an amended standard or a different **7** 

### standard is not being considered for lowest **8** 

### application product temperature certified **9** 

### equipment is just because DOE is really not **10** 

### anticipating very many equipment using such **11** 

### provision. It is really just a mechanism to **12** 

### get away from having to do a waiver for these **13** 

### small number of equipment. **14** 

### MR. MALAKAR: So, the thing is **15** 

### like if that is the case, I think there should **16** 

### be another classification maybe like Class C **17** 

### or so and you can clearly state that that **18** 

### formulas used for Class A equipment that **19** 

### cannot meet 36 degrees requirement. That will **20** 

### distinguish that product from the remaining **21** 

### other products. **22** 

### MS. WIDDER: Okay. So, thank you

### Page 78

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. 

### 1 

### for that comment. If you have any information **2** 

### about what the energy consumption of, you **3** 

### know, what a representative energy consumption **4** 

### of such lowest application product temperature **5** 

### applicable equipment would be and what their **6** 

### lowest application product temperature is, DOE **7** 

### needs that kind of data in order to support **8** 

### setting the standard for that equipment **9** 

### specifically, if that makes sense. **10** 

### So, we would need information. **11** 

### You know if all that equipment can get down to **12** 

### 45, maybe establishing a separate integrated **13** 

### average product temperature, as opposed to **14** 

### this more variable provision. And then we **15** 

### would need energy data from some **16** 

### representative set of those equipment. **17** 

### And so setting a standard is a **18** 

### fairly rigorous process and establishing **19** 

### separate equipment class is a fairly rigorous **20** 

### process, which is why DOE has elected not to **21** 

### pursue it in this NOPR anyways. **22** 

### But if it is warranted, then DOE

### Page 79

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. 

### 1 

### certainly would accept and will probably **2** 

### actively solicit relevant data. **3** 

### MR. DRENTEN: So, this is Doug **4** 

### Drenten at Crane Merchandising. I am in the **5** 

### room here with Subarna. **6** 

### MS. WIDDER: Great. **7** 

### MR. DRENTEN: Here is my question. **8** 

### If we have classifications that are already **9** 

### established and we have certain protocol **10** 

### around the testing, the methods, the **11** 

### temperature ranges for that testing at 36 **12** 

### degrees, how does DOE expect the consumer or **13** 

### somebody looking at the data to distinguish **14** 

### between a better performing product and one **15** 

### that is just not operating at 36 degrees, **16** 

### using the same formulas? **17** 

### If I have my machine so that it **18** 

### will only go down to 50 degrees, intuitively, **19** 

### I am going to use less energy. **20** 

### MS. WIDDER: Right, intuitively **21** 

### you will. That is a valid comment. I think **22** 

### DOE was not anticipating that that comparison

### Page 80

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. 

### 1 

### -- that consumers would be making that **2** 

### comparison very often due to the lower number **3** 

### of equipment that DOE anticipates will be **4** 

### using this lowest application product **5** 

### temperature provision. **6** 

### MR. DRENTEN: But it is really not **7** 

### how often a consumer makes it. It is if a **8** 

### consumer has to make that determination or **9** 

### that comparison, how do that do that, whether **10** 

### it is one or whether it is one million **11** 

### consumers? **12** 

### MS. WIDDER: So they would -- so, **13** 

### there is two things that that would be **14** 

### relevant. **15** 

### So, one is from DOE's **16** 

### understanding, manufacturers typically publish **17** 

### a temp operating temperature range in their **18** 

### manufacturer literatures. And that is, **19** 

### potentially, a criterion that that consumer is **20** 

### using to select a piece of equipment. And so **21** 

### the consumer would notice when they were **22** 

### reviewing the operating range that it did not

### Page 81

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. 

### 1 

### include 36 and did not go down that low. And **2** 

### they would notice it had a higher operating **3** 

### range. If that is acceptable for their **4** 

### application, that is fine. But that would be **5** 

### one hint or idea that the energy information **6** 

### that they were seeing was not representative **7** 

### of 36 because that equipment operates higher, **8** 

### at a higher temperature. **9** 

### The second would be that DOE, as I **10** 

### mentioned, DOE is requiring that if equipment **11** 

### is certified using the lowest application **12** 

### product temperature provision, then they must **13** 

### certify as such in their certification report. **14** 

### And those data will be available, publicly **15** 

### available in the certification database, once **16** 

### certification is required for BVM. So, **17** 

### customers, anyone can go and look at that **18** 

### certification information online. **19** 

### And Elaina from Navigant also had **20** 

### something to add. **21** 

### MS. PRESENT: I just wanted to add **22** 

### --

### Page 82

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. 

### 1 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Stand up, **2 Elaina. 3 MS. PRESENT: Sorry -- that**  **4 customers may also be using the energy use 5 information to gauge the energies to expect**  **6 from the machine. If the machine cannot go 7 down to 36, it is not going to use the same**  **8 energy consumption as it would as it was 9 tested at 36. So, it is actually more**  **10 representative, as is required by DOE to use 11 the field -- what would be a reasonable field**  **12 energy use for the equipment. 13 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Louis**  **14 Starr. 15 MR. STARR: So, just a thought.**  **16 MS. WIDDER: Yes. 17 MR. STARR: It seems like maybe**  **18 just scale, thermodynamically scale the 19 relative -- in other words, if you are at 40**  **20 instead of 36, just scale up that energy 21 proportional as your MDEC, what is the word,**  **22 your allowable amount.**

### Page 83

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. 

### 1 

### MS. WIDDER: Based on the delta t. **2** 

### MR. STARR: Right. Maybe the **3** 

### ASHRAE chair has a thought about whether that **4** 

### would be a pretty good way to do it. **5** 

### But I mean straight up, if you are **6** 

### doing 90 percent of the delta, it seems like **7** 

### you would get only 90 percent of the energy **8** 

### budget, too. **9** 

### MS. WIDDER: Yes, there is also **10** 

### fixed energy consuming components, like lights **11** 

### and things. And that proportion will vary **12** 

### from equipment to equipment, depending on how **13** 

### big the box is. **14** 

### So, while thermodynamically for **15** 

### the same piece of equipment operating at one **16** 

### level or another, it is a fixed proportion, **17** 

### applying that to all equipment and using the **18** 

### methods DOE uses to set standards may not be **19** 

### one to one but that is something, it is a **20** 

### proposal on the table that manufacturers or **21** 

### others can respond to. **22** 

### MR. MITCHELL: So, not being a

### Page 84

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. 

### 1 

### manufacturer myself, I don't have a lot of **2** 

### information, a lot of test data to show how **3** 

### the performance varies as that temperature **4** 

### changes. But I don't know if the **5** 

### manufacturers even have that. **6** 

### FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Stand up, **7** 

### Rolando. **8** 

### MR. WILLIAMS: Rolando **9** 

### SandenVendo. **10** 

### If a unit cannot be pulled down to **11** 

### 36, the machine is designed differently. **12** 

### Insulation is designed, it is not as much as **13** 

### one that can go down to 36. So, the energy **14** 

### would be much different. **15** 

### MS. WIDDER: Yes, I think it would **16** 

### be a little more complex of a process. When **17** 

### I was thinking about it, part of the reason we **18** 

### didn't go down that road is it really would be **19** 

### setting us, establishing a separate equipment **20** 

### class and doing all of the rigorous analysis **21** 

### we are going to talk about hopefully this **22** 

### afternoon on a whole different set of

### Page 85

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. 

### 1 

### equipment. And there is requirements that **2** 

### EPCA establishes for DOE when considering **3** 

### setting the standards and we would have to **4** 

### jump through all those hoops for this **5** 

### particular type of equipment. **6** 

### And so I think we could consider **7** 

### scaling it by temperature but we would want to **8** 

### make sure that that was representative and **9** 

### fair for all of those equipment. **10** 

### So, it would be a complex thing. **11** 

### And if the interest parties around this room **12** 

### or on the webinar feel that that is something **13** 

### DOE should pursue, they can certainly comment **14** 

### as such. Or, if they have data about how **15** 

### prevalent the lowest application product **16** 

### temperature equipment are, that would **17** 

### certainly be an important piece of **18** 

### information. **19** 

### FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Louis, **20** 

### follow on. **21** 

### MR. STARR: In general, how much **22** 

### equipment are we talking about on a percentage

### Page 86

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. 

### 1 

### basis? **2** 

### MS. WIDDER: I don't know. **3** 

### Elaina, do you have a guess? **4** 

### MS. PRESENT: I could guess the **5** 

### number of models but I'm not sure. **6** 

### MS. WIDDER: Yes, a very single **7** 

### digit percentage. **8** 

### The other thing I will note that **9** 

### DOE also considers when they are setting **10** 

### standards is the potential for energy savings. **11** 

### And since the lowest application product **12** 

### temperature equipment will already be **13** 

### inherently using less energy than the rest of **14** 

### the models, and it is a small number of models **15** 

### based on our research, there is not a lot of **16** 

### theoretical potential for energy savings via **17** 

### available, via setting a separate standard for **18** 

### those equipment. **19** 

### So, I am going to move on, unless **20** 

### there is any other burning comments. But I **21** 

### encourage interested parties to consider **22** 

### thinking about this.

### Page 87

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. 

### 1 

### FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Subarna has **2** 

### an additional comment. **3** 

### MS. WIDDER: Okay. **4** 

### FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Subarna? **5** 

### MR. MALAKAR: Yes, the one comment **6** 

### I have is you know, again, just to separate **7** 

### those machines. I think we should have a **8** 

### different classification and list those **9** 

### machines with a temperature they are tested **10** 

### at. **11** 

### MS. WIDDER: So, I have a -- **12** 

### MR. MALAKAR: -- come up with **13** 

### another formula or anything like that. Just **14** 

### create another classification, say Class C or **15** 

### so and list those machines with the **16** 

### temperature they are tested at. **17** 

### MS. WIDDER: So, you are **18** 

### suggesting establishing a labeling requirement **19** 

### for beverage vending machines. **20** 

### MR. MALAKAR: Something like that, **21** 

### exactly. **22** 

### MS. WIDDER: Okay, thank you for

### Page 88

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. 

### 1 

### that comment. I would encourage other **2** 

### interested parties to respond to that **3** 

### proposal, whether they believe a labeling **4** 

### requirement for equipment testing at the **5** 

### lowest application product temperature would **6** 

### be a good thing, is justified. **7** 

### FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Okay, let's **8** 

### move on. **9** 

### MS. WIDDER: Okay, moving on. **10** 

### So, this is a slide that we are **11** 

### going to spend a lot of time on. This is a **12** 

### large part of the NOPR, if you happened to **13** 

### read it. If not, I encourage you to do so **14** 

### because I am going to stay pretty high level **15** 

### here but I am going to discuss in general **16** 

### DOE's proposal for these accessories and one **17** 

### other that is on the following slide. **18** 

### DOE, in testing and discussions **19** 

### with manufacturers has determined that there **20** 

### is a lot of variability in the accessories **21** 

### that might be -- a BVM might come equipped **22** 

### with. It might be money-processing, lighting

### Page 89

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. 

### 1 

### on the inside, the outside, heaters for winter **2** 

### cooling, anti-sweat heaters, security covers, **3** 

### they are all listed here. And none of these **4** 

### equipment has explicit specifications within **5** 

### the existing test procedure as to how they are **6** 

### to be configured for the purposes of **7** 

### conducting the DOE test procedure, which could **8** 

### lead to variability in the measure of energy **9** 

### consumption, if one lab were to do it one way **10** 

### and another lab a different way. **11** 

### So, DOE is considering clarifying **12** 

### the test procedure and specifically, the **13** 

### configuration for each of these accessories to **14** 

### ensure consistency of results among equipment **15** 

### and among labs. **16** 

### I'm just going to read through **17** 

### these. Money-processing devices, and that **18** 

### would be what is used to swipe the credit card **19** 

### or accept money, would be in place and **20** 

### functional in the most energy consuming **21** 

### combination that is available with that model **22** 

### because there can be a variety of money-

### Page 90

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. 

### 1 

### processing equipment configured on the **2** 

### machine. **3** 

### Internal lighting. This is the **4** 

### one that is probably the most clear in the **5** 

### current ASHRAE standard. The internal **6** 

### lighting should be at the maximum energy**7** 

### consuming state. **8** 

### Anti-sweat and other electric **9** 

### resistance heaters should be set to automatic, **10** 

### if available. So, if there is a humidistat **11** 

### associated with the anti-sweat heater, that **12** 

### can be used. Otherwise, set to the maximum **13** 

### energy-consuming state. **14** 

### Condensate pan heaters and pumps **15** 

### in place and operational. So, that would -- **16** 

### and not messed with during the DOE test **17** 

### procedure. You know you can't manually remove **18** 

### condensate during the test. **19** 

### Illuminated temperature displays, **20** 

### that is already specified in ASHRAE by the **21** 

### way. Illuminated temperature displays would **22** 

### be energized and operated normally, as

### Page 91

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. 

### 1 

### intended. **2** 

### Condenser filters should be **3** 

### removed for the test, such that it would **4** 

### affect air flow. **5** 

### Security covers that might be in **6** 

### place on the front of the machine to protect **7** 

### the machine from vandalism aren't expected to **8** 

### affect the energy performance of equipment but **9** 

### would be removed for the test, just to ensure **10** 

### consistency, if it would hold in some of the **11** 

### air or something. **12** 

### General purpose outlets that may **13** 

### be on the outside of the equipment for cell **14** 

### phone charging or that people are starting to **15** 

### do all manner of things with beverage vending **16** 

### machines. It will be energized. It is **17** 

### difficult to de-energize those but nothing **18** 

### should be plugged into them. **19** 

### Crankcase heaters and other **20** 

### electric resistance heaters for cold weather **21** 

### should be operational and operated with any **22** 

### control systems activated. So, hopefully,

### Page 92

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. 

### 1 

### such a machine would have like a thermostat **2** 

### associated with it that measured the outdoor **3** 

### ambient. If it didn't, I guess it should be **4** 

### on all the time. But hopefully, the **5** 

### thermostat would be operated and should be **6** 

### operated, if it exists. **7** 

### And then I wrote out this one **8** 

### accessory which DOE is calling -- is it on **9** 

### here -- yes, external customer display signs, **10** 

### lighting and digital screens. I wrote this **11** 

### out separately because this is sort of like **12** 

### the "everything else" accessory pile. **13** 

### So, DOE has become aware that **14** 

### there are BVMs that are being developed that **15** 

### have interactive screens and gaming consoles **16** 

### and all sorts of things associated with them. **17** 

### So, the variety of this equipment is **18** 

### increasing rapidly. **19** 

### DOE looked out at the availability **20** 

### of this equipment and believes that a lot of **21** 

### this equipment or noticed that a lot of this **22** 

### equipment is already covered by another DOE

### Page 93

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. 

### 1 

### energy conservation standard, like TVs are **2** 

### already covered to the extent that someone **3** 

### were to put like a -- what are those called -- **4** 

### like a TV -- yes, a lot of this is already **5** 

### covered by existing DOE energy conservation **6** 

### standards. But DOE will note that just by **7** 

### quick back of the envelope calculations, it is **8** 

### going to vary based on what the BVM is and **9** 

### what the equipment is. But it is about **10** 

### equivalent to the energy use of the BVM, **11** 

### itself. So, it can be significant in some **12** 

### cases. **13** 

### However, due to the variability of **14** 

### that equipment and the difficulty of trying to **15** 

### accommodate all those different configurations **16** 

### and still meet a consistent standard, DOE **17** 

### believes that the energy use of such external **18** 

### customer display signs, lighting, and digital **19** 

### screens are virtually not associated with the **20** 

### primary function of the refrigerated beverage **21** 

### vending machine, which is to refrigerate **22** 

### products and vend them to a customer. And so

### Page 94

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. 

### 1 

### any of these external features that are **2** 

### associated with other functions that are not **3** 

### refrigerating or vending are not necessarily **4** 

### representative of the energy consumption of **5** 

### just the refrigeration, the refrigerated **6** 

### beverage vending machine in its fundamental **7** 

### use. **8** 

### Therefore, DOE is proposing in **9** 

### this NOPR in general that such equipment **10** 

### should be de-energized. There is a little bit **11** 

### of nuance that is characterized in this table. **12** 

### So, if the operation of the customer display **13** 

### side lighting or digital screen is not used **14** 

### for refrigerating or vending, such that de**15** 

### energizing will not affect the performance of **16** 

### the refrigerated beverage vending machine in **17** 

### meeting the intent of a refrigerated beverage **18** 

### vending machine, it should be in Appendix A, **19** 

### de-energized or in its lowest energy-consuming **20** 

### state and in Appendix B, which is to be used **21** 

### with future energy conservation standards, de**22** 

### energized or in standby mode.

### Page 95

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. 

### 1 

### So, DOE is proposing a definition **2** 

### for standby mode, that is on the next slide **3** 

### that is, in general, is consistent with the **4** 

### terminology in Appendix A but to the extent **5** 

### that it is different, DOE is accommodating **6** 

### this definition in Appendix B, proposing that **7** 

### definition in Appendix B, and placing it in **8** 

### Appendix B because it may affect the energy **9** 

### consumption of covered equipment. **10** 

### And then if that display sign, **11** 

### lighting, and digital screen is necessary for **12** 

### vending, so like you have to touch the screen **13** 

### to make your selection or something like that, **14** 

### it must be placed in its lowest energy **15** 

### consuming state that does not interfere with **16** 

### the vending function. So, you have to be able **17** 

### to still select the product but maybe there is **18** 

### another part of the screen that can be de**19** 

### energized or something like that. **20** 

### FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: We have a **21** 

### couple of comments here. **22** 

### MS. WIDDER: Yes, okay.

### Page 96

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. 

### 1 

### FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Louis **2** 

### first. **3** 

### MR. STARR: So, a question. In **4** 

### the machines you are looking at that have the **5** 

### external outlet, was signage being plugged **6** 

### into that or could it be a range of things **7** 

### that are being plugged in? **8** 

### MS. WIDDER: So, it is a variety. **9** 

### And actually, typically, Elaina can correct me **10** 

### if I am wrong, but my understanding is that **11** 

### equipment that is being manufactured to have **12** 

### this kind of auxiliary stuff on it, it is **13** 

### actually directly wired. And so that is why **14** 

### we have all these different energy-consuming **15** 

### states because it is not something you could **16** 

### just like unplug in many or all -- in most **17** 

### cases. If it is, then that is what you should **18** 

### do. If you can directly plug it in, unplug **19** 

### it. That would meet this de-energized thing. **20** 

### It would also meet the general purpose outlet **21** 

### provision. **22** 

### But otherwise, there is a lot that

### Page 97

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. 

### 1 

### is directly wired. **2** 

### MR. STARR: Well, I didn't say I **3** 

### was suggesting the opposite. If it is like an **4** 

### electrical outlet in your house, it is **5** 

### designed for a certain amount of wattage and **6** 

### it is kind of then National Electrical Code **7** 

### that determines how much equipment. **8** 

### So, one option instead of de**9** 

### energizing is energizing to the full amount **10** 

### that that circuit is able to handle in the **11** 

### test procedure. So, if you have something set **12** 

### up for 10 amps or 15 amps, we power that much. **13** 

### The fact that the size of the -- **14** 

### you were mentioning the percentage of use of **15** 

### these auxiliary devices are meeting the amount **16** 

### of the machines, starts to make me think it is **17** 

### really just essentially part of the machine. **18** 

### MS. WIDDER: Right. **19** 

### MR. STARR: So, that is kind of a **20** 

### little bit of my thought process. But it is **21** 

### just another option to think about. Instead **22** 

### of not having things plugged in, plug it in to

### Page 98

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. 

### 1 

### the amount that there is a circuit breaker for **2** 

### that switch. Someone plugs in a 20 amp **3** 

### circuit into a 10, it will cook the circuit. **4** 

### So, you, therefore, couldn't load it up to its **5** 

### maximum available and do the test procedure **6** 

### that way. **7** 

### MS. WIDDER: Right. Thank you for **8** 

### that comment. Just to follow up, something **9** 

### that goes through my mind is whether or not **10** 

### that maximum energy consumption would be **11** 

### representative of what is that BVM is in the **12** 

### field. **13** 

### There are sometimes general **14** 

### purpose outlets and whatever I have seen them **15** 

### on a BVM, nothing is plugged in, for what it **16** 

### is worth. It is not that -- that is an **17** 

### anecdotal piece of information. But if **18** 

### manufacturers have or others have information **19** 

### about the extent to which they are used, we **20** 

### would want to at least account for that to be **21** 

### as representative as possible but that is **22** 

### certainly one approach. Thank you for that

### Page 99

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. 

### 1 

### comment. **2** 

### FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Subarna, **3** 

### you are next. **4** 

### MS. WIDDER: Subarna? **5** 

### FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: We cannot **6** 

### hear you Subarna. Unmute the phone. **7** 

### MR. MALAKAR: Yes, just a **8** 

### question. What is the reason behind the **9** 

### reason where you remove the condenser filter **10** 

### and the security covers? **11** 

### MS. WIDDER: What is the reasoning **12** 

### behind it? **13** 

### MR. MALAKAR: Yes. **14** 

### MS. WIDDER: Just to consistently **15** 

### configure. Those two provisions, actually, in **16** 

### specific, DOE doesn't anticipate being very **17** 

### common or prevalent or affecting the energy **18** 

### consumption very dramatically but -- **19** 

### MR. MALAKAR: It will affect the **20** 

### energy consumption. Like if you have a filter **21** 

### that increases pressure drop across and the **22** 

### coil, it can increase the condensing

### Page 100

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. 

### 1 

### temperature and it can increase the energy **2** 

### consumption. **3** 

### MS. WIDDER: Right. And so if you **4** 

### were in an outdoor application, you might want **5** 

### to incorporate a condenser filter. However, **6** 

### DOE wants all of the equipment to be tested **7** 

### consistently. So, if you think it would be **8** 

### more representative to test it with condenser **9** 

### filters in place, we certainly welcome those **10** 

### types of comments. **11** 

### MR. MALAKAR: Yes. **12** 

### MS. WIDDER: DOE selected these **13** 

### specifications because they thought they were **14** 

### most representative of how equipment would be **15** 

### installed in the field. That was the intent **16** 

### -- and being consistent. **17** 

### MR. MALAKAR: But the thing is **18** 

### like you have to test and it will be years, **19** 

### right? That is the thing. If it is going to **20** 

### be used with the condenser filter, then it **21** 

### will have to be tested with condenser filter. **22** 

### MS. WIDDER: So, just to follow-up

### Page 101

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. 

### 1 on that, for a specific BVM model, would you **2 ship all those models with the same filter or 3 is there some models that go with the filter,**  **4 some without, and is there any variability in 5 the type of filter that could be applied?**  **6 MR. MALAKAR: Then you will have 7 to have that as two different models.**  **8 MS. WIDDER: That is one option. 9 I would request feedback or comments from**  **10 other manufacturers about whether they think 11 that those equipment should be listed as**  **12 separate models and we should revise this 13 specification.**  **14 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Additional 15 comments? Sarah, I think we are due for a**  **16 break. 17 MS. WIDDER: Okay. Can we -- we**  **18 are really close to the end of Appendix A. 19 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Okay.**  **20 MS. WIDDER: Yes, I think we are 21 really close to the end of Appendix A, if I**  **22 remember properly. So, let's get there.**

### Page 102

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. 

### 1 

### This is the last thing, but there **2** 

### is a lot of questions -- we are sort of **3** 

### getting the comments out now but there is a **4** 

### lot of pages of comments. **5** 

### We could also maybe let people **6** 

### think about it on the break and take some **7** 

### comments but let me get through my slides at **8** 

### least. **9** 

### FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Okay. **10** 

### MS. WIDDER: I think this actually **11** 

### might be the last content slide. **12** 

### This is the definition of standby **13** 

### mode that DOE is proposing for inclusion in **14** 

### Appendix B. Standby mode means the mode of **15** 

### operation in which any external integral **16** 

### consumer display sign, lighting or digital **17** 

### screen are connected to main power, do not **18** 

### produce the intended illumination display or **19** 

### interaction functionality, and can be switched **20** 

### into another mode automatically with only a **21** 

### remote user-generated or internal signal. **22** 

### So, this definition was developed

### Page 103

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. 

### 1 

### based on the definition of standby mode that **2** 

### is included for TVs because DOE thought that **3** 

### is the type of equipment it might be most **4** 

### applicable for. **5** 

### The idea is here that if it is in **6** 

### a mode that like you could power it on but it **7** 

### is not completely de-energized if there is any **8** 

### background sort of -- like maintaining a **9** 

### timestamp or something like that, a Wi-Fi **10** 

### signal, that would be included in the standby **11** 

### mode but the primary energy consumption would **12** 

### be off. **13** 

### So, that is what this definition **14** 

### was intended to encompass. And then to the **15** 

### extent that a standby mode energy consumption **16** 

### state exists for any of this auxiliary **17** 

### equipment or user accessories that is **18** 

### different from de-energizing the equipment, **19** 

### that state would be used for Appendix B but **20** 

### the equipment would be de-energized in **21** 

### Appendix A, to be to not modify the energy **22** 

### consumption of that equipment, as it needs to

### Page 104

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. 

### 1 

### meet the existing standard. **2** 

### So, here is all the -- I will just **3** 

### run through the comments and we can talk about **4** 

### them. This is our request for comment on **5** 

### internal lighting, that it would reach its **6** 

### maximum energy-consuming state and whether **7** 

### that is consistent with normal operation or if **8** 

### there is a wide variety of lighting levels, if **9** 

### there is something that might be more **10** 

### representative. **11** 

### These are comments on the **12** 

### specifications for these auxiliary **13** 

### accessories, the external customer display **14** 

### signs, lighting and digital screens. This DOE **15** 

### would appreciate the most comment on. The **16** 

### range of equipment that should be addressed in **17** 

### this category; if the language is sufficient **18** 

### to capture all of that equipment; if the **19** 

### provision itself is representative of the BVM **20** 

### energy consumption. **21** 

### If there might be any issue de**22** 

### energizing such equipment in Appendix A, DOE

### Page 105

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. 

### 1 

### would like comment on that or setting the **2** 

### equipment in standby mode. So, the **3** 

### implementation of such a provision. I think **4** 

### that is -- you guys can read these comments. **5** 

### There is more. **6** 

### And then especially this last one **7** 

### I will bring up and the rest of you can read. **8** 

### For digital screens that also perform the **9** 

### vending or money-processing function, DOE **10** 

### would appreciate comment to the extent that **11** 

### exists, if that means that equipment has to be **12** 

### fully energized and if so, if it would be **13** 

### difficult for that equipment to meet a **14** 

### standard or it needs a separate standard, or **15** 

### if there is a lower energy-consuming state **16** 

### that would still allow the money processing **17** 

### feature to function. **18** 

### And then we are on to Appendix B. **19** 

### So, maybe, Doug, unless there is **20** 

### burning comments now, we could take a break **21** 

### and then will accept any additional comments **22** 

### that might occur to people on these items and

### Page 106

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. 

### 1 

### then move on to Appendix B. **2** 

### FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Yes, I **3** 

### think there is quite a bit of a list here. **4** 

### Let's take a short break. **5** 

### Arshak, when we return, you are **6** 

### the first one in the queue. Let's try and do **7** 

### this in ten minutes. We really close to the **8** 

### coffee shop. Please wear your badge so it is **9** 

### visible to walk around the Forrestal building. **10** 

### And the coffee shop is right around the corner **11** 

### here. The restrooms are on both ends of the **12** 

### hall also. **13** 

### MR. STARR: And vending machines. **14** 

### FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: And vending **15** 

### machines. But it is now 11:00, which means we **16** 

### will resume at ten minutes after 11:00. There **17** 

### is a fair amount of substantive material **18** 

### before we break for lunch. So, let's get back **19** 

### here and get right at it. **20** 

### (Whereupon, the above-entitled **21** 

### matter went off the record at 11:00 a.m. and **22** 

### resumed at 11:12 a.m.)

### Page 107

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. 

### 1 

### FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Okay, let's **2** 

### start back. So, let's finish our brief **3** 

### overview of slides up to slide 54. So, that **4** 

### included definition of standby mode, treatment **5** 

### of accessories -- treatment of accessories, **6** 

### several slides there. **7** 

### So, Arshak, you were next in the **8** 

### queue. Please comment. **9** 

### MR. ZAKARIAN: Hi, can you hear **10** 

### me? **11** 

### FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Yes, speak **12** 

### up. **13** 

### MR. ZAKARIAN: I am just wondering **14** 

### when you say DOE doesn't do standby or **15** 

### vending-only, what does this mean exactly? **16** 

### MS. WIDDER: Okay. So, that means **17** 

### exactly -- how come I can't go backwards? Oh, **18** 

### okay. **19** 

### FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: We've got **20** 

### some feedback in the room, which typically **21** 

### means that someone has their phone un-muted **22** 

### and is not speaking. So, if everyone who

### Page 108

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. 

### 1 

### joined us on line can mute their phone, maybe **2** 

### that will stop the feedback. **3** 

### PARTICIPANT: It is Arshak's **4** 

### phone. **5** 

### FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Sarah, keep **6** 

### going. **7** 

### MS. WIDDER: So, standby -- to **8** 

### answer the question, exactly that means that **9** 

### if there is a mode that meets this definition, **10** 

### and so the best thing to think about is a **11** 

### television - which is where this definition **12** 

### was developed - that can be turned on with a **13** 

### remote control or pressing the power button on **14** 

### the screen, but to the extent that this other **15** 

### standby power use isn't the case, another **16** 

### example that has nothing to do with BVMs is **17** 

### like a coffee maker or a microwave that has **18** 

### internal clock or might have other functions **19** 

### that are always energized and then a primary **20** 

### function that is disabled in the standby mode. **21** 

### So, that is what this definition **22** 

### is intended to represent. Exactly -- the

### Page 109

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. 

### 1 

### reason this is included in Appendix B or what **2** 

### it means to be included in Appendix B is that **3** 

### if there is TVs or lighting or other signs **4** 

### that would meet this definition, that would **5** 

### have a mode that they can be turned off but **6** 

### there is other peripheral functions that are **7** 

### always energized like clocks, temperature **8** 

### displays, something that is part of it, then **9** 

### those -- then the standby mode would have to **10** 

### be met. **11** 

### In Appendix B, that equipment **12** 

### would be de-energized completely -- or in **13** 

### Appendix A. I'm sorry. In Appendix A, that **14** 

### equipment would be de-energized completely or **15** 

### in its lowest energy-consuming state, whatever **16** 

### that is. In Appendix B, it would be de**17** 

### energized or in standby mode. **18** 

### So, if its lowest energy-consuming **19** 

### state is standby mode, then that means **20** 

### nothing. If it can be de-energized, it is **21** 

### always de-energized in Appendix A or Appendix **22** 

### B. So, if you can turn it off completely, if

### Page 110

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. 

### 1 

### you can disconnect it, if you can unplug it, **2** 

### that is what you should do. If you cannot **3** 

### unplug it or de-energize it without de**4** 

### energizing the entire machine, you would put **5** 

### it in its lowest energy-consuming state in **6** 

### Appendix A, which is however you can configure **7** 

### the machine or in standby mode. And the **8** 

### reason that that is adopted here is the lowest **9** 

### energy-consuming state is a little bit **10** 

### ambiguous. I think that we can all appreciate **11** 

### that that is not a specific -- that doesn't **12** 

### have specific requirements around how the **13** 

### equipment, what functionality is available **14** 

### versus not, what lowest energy-consuming state **15** 

### means. So, this describes what type of **16** 

### functions should be available and is **17** 

### representative in DOE's view of the percentage **18** 

### of the energy consumption associated with **19** 

### these peripheral devices that is appropriate **20** 

### to accommodate in the measurement of daily **21** 

### energy consumption for the beverage vending **22** 

### machine. Because that would be present, just

### Page 111

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. 

### 1 

### like lighting, 24/7 in the beverage vending **2** 

### machine when it was plugged in. Whereas, a **3** 

### television may be turned off, may be turned **4** 

### on, may be operating differently in the field. **5** 

### There is just such a wide variety of **6** 

### mechanisms or ways that this equipment could **7** 

### be operated. There are so many different **8** 

### energy consumption profiles. That is what **9** 

### this means. **10** 

### Does that help at all? **11** 

### MR. ZAKARIAN: I keep on wondering **12** 

### what it means to be in Appendix A, to be in **13** 

### Appendix B and what is required. **14** 

### MS. WIDDER: Okay, so I will try **15** 

### to answer that specifically. And then if that **16** 

### is still not clear, I think any suggestions or **17** 

### further questions DOE would appreciate written **18** 

### comments on that and we can continue to **19** 

### consider them to be more explicit, to make **20** 

### sure it is clear when we do the final rule. **21** 

### So, to reiterate, in Appendix A, **22** 

### which would be effective 30 days after

### Page 112

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. 

### 1 

### publication of this test procedure -- any test **2** 

### procedure final rule in the Federal Register **3** 

### and would be able to be used with existing **4** 

### standards if you can de-energize an external **5** 

### customer display sign, external lighting, or **6** 

### digital screen, it should be de-energized. **7** 

### If you can't de-energize it **8** 

### without affecting the vending function or **9** 

### affecting the refrigeration, or affecting the **10** 

### energy consumption of the beverage vending **11** 

### machine as performing the refrigeration and **12** 

### vending functions that make it a BVM, then it **13** 

### should be in its lowest energy-consuming **14** 

### state. So, turned down to the extent it can **15** 

### turn down. **16** 

### It is difficult to specify more **17** 

### than that. So, things that come to mind are **18** 

### if it is a TV monitor and the TV can be on **19** 

### like a sleep mode or something and that is **20** 

### available without de-energizing it, then it **21** 

### should be in the sleep mode. If it always has **22** 

### to be illuminated but there is like a dimmer

### Page 113

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. 

### 1 setting on the lights, it should be in the **2 dimmer setting on the lights. 3 Those are some examples but as I**  **4 mentioned previously, there is a lot of 5 variability in this equipment.**  **6 In Appendix B, which would be 7 required with compliance with any amended**  **8 energy conservation standards, that same BVM 9 would -- what's that?**  **10 Yes, that would be after the 11 publication of any amended standards and also**  **12 after compliance with those standards as 13 required. There are some provisions for DOE**  **14 allowing for early use of amended test 15 procedures but I am not going to go there**  **16 right now. 17 So, the point is, Appendix B is**  **18 intended to be used with those amended 19 standards. What you would do in that case is**  **20 still, if you can de-energize the equipment, 21 if you can unplug it without affecting the**  **22 refrigeration or vending functions, that is**

### Page 114

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. 

### 1 

### what should happen. It should be de**2** 

### energized. And if you can't de-energize it, **3** 

### then it should be in a mode that meets this **4** 

### definition of standby mode. **5** 

### And in general, based on DOE's **6** 

### review, the lowest energy-consuming state will **7** 

### probably meet this standby mode definition. **8** 

### But the standby mode definition was proposed **9** 

### to provide more explicit instructions about **10** 

### what features should be energized or de**11** 

### energized -- well since it can't be de**12** 

### energized, it should be available to represent **13** 

### the energy consumption of that equipment in a **14** 

### minimally energized state. **15** 

### So, some questions that might -- **16** 

### that we thought about, that DOE thought about, **17** 

### you know to respond to your question about **18** 

### what is the difference between Appendix A and **19** 

### Appendix B, one question would be, is the **20** 

### lowest energy consuming state different than **21** 

### standby mode for any equipment that **22** 

### manufacturers or other interested parties are

### Page 115

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. 

### 1 

### aware of? **2** 

### If standby mode were included in **3** 

### Appendix A, would that be problematic for any **4** 

### equipment? **5** 

### Would it be more representative in **6** 

### Appendix B to have standby mode specified for **7** 

### all of these external customer display signs **8** 

### and de-energization -- that is not a word -- **9** 

### de-energizing those accessories not available? **10** 

### So, you just have to put it in standby for **11** 

### Appendix B and then it can be de-energized as **12** 

### low as you can go in Appendix A. **13** 

### I mean these are questions that we **14** 

### thought about, what is representative for this **15** 

### equipment. And in Appendix B, we can **16** 

### consider, we have more flexibility to consider **17** 

### what is representative for this equipment **18** 

### because amended standards are also being **19** 

### considered that can accommodate any changes in **20** 

### energy consumption that would change -- that **21** 

### would result from changing the specification **22** 

### of the accessories.

### Page 116

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 In Appendix A, we would have to 2 stick with what is the DOE test procedure and**  **3 what was considered in the existing standards. 4 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: And we are**  **5 going to move on to Appendix B shortly but 6 let's take additional comments here.**  **7 MR. SUAMI: Mvuala from Natural 8 Resources Canada.**  **9 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Yes. 10 MR. SUAMI: Why not call the**  **11 standby mode external accessory standby mode? 12 Because in Appendix B it is more, if I**  **13 understand, is internal accessory standby than 14 refrigeration standby mode.**  **15 MS. WIDDER: Right. 16 MR. SUAMI: Because for the**  **17 Appendix B, when you say standby mode, 18 somebody will think about internal standby**  **19 mode because there is no qualification of what 20 is standby mode. That term may bring some**  **21 confusion. 22 So, if you qualify this standby** 

### Page 117

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. 

### 1 

### mode as external accessory standby mode, **2** 

### people will understand it is something that **3** 

### was not perhaps for vending machine for the **4** 

### cold beverage vending machine. **5** 

### MS. WIDDER: Right. That is a **6** 

### good comment and actually a perfect transition **7** 

### to Appendix B, if we don't have any other **8** 

### comments. **9** 

### FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Final **10** 

### comments here before we move on. **11** 

### Okay. Yes, please, Jim. **12** 

### MR. COLLINS: Jim Collins, AMS. **13** 

### The topic on the previous slide regarding **14** 

### money devices, that seems to me to be opening **15** 

### up a huge can of worms. We discussed it a **16** 

### little bit in the ASHRAE committee. We are **17** 

### unsure what you are planning to do there. **18** 

### There is a wide variety of different equipment **19** 

### available, numerous permutations of equipment **20** 

### that can be fitted on any of these machines **21** 

### and, certainly, at this stage, they will work **22** 

### to the detriment of our allowed MDEC. Any

### Page 118

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. 

### 1 

### consideration for adjustments then to the **2** 

### MDEC, due to the additional requirement for **3** 

### money processing devices. **4** 

### MS. WIDDER: So, thank you for **5** 

### that comment. DOE's intent -- so, that -- how **6** 

### do I address this? DOE's intention with the **7** 

### specification for money processing devices for **8** 

### them to be in place and functional and the **9** 

### most energy-consuming combination is to **10** 

### respond to the first part of your statement or **11** 

### comment, which is there is a wide variety of **12** 

### money processing configurations that are **13** 

### available for a given model. DOE doesn't **14** 

### necessarily see the need for all of those **15** 

### configurations to be differentiated as **16** 

### different basic models. And so a way to **17** 

### represent the energy consumption of that model **18** 

### in a consistent fashion is with a **19** 

### conservative, or the maximum, most consumptive **20** 

### rating. That is where this thinking came **21** 

### from. That is consistent with DOE's basic **22** 

### model grouping provisions, which allow basic

### Page 119

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. 

### 1 

### models to be in the same equipment class to be **2** 

### grouped, provided they all use the same most **3** 

### consumptive energy rating. **4** 

### So, DOE wanted first to be more **5** 

### specific about what energy, what money **6** 

### processing equipment should be in place. And **7** 

### I think we all agree on that. That should **8** 

### probably occur. What that combination is that **9** 

### is representative for that model and how that **10** 

### can be consistently applied to the equipment **11** 

### or a different basic model for each **12** 

### combination of money processing equipment are **13** 

### necessary or what is currently done in the **14** 

### field, what are industry today, all of that **15** 

### would be useful information. **16** 

### DOE in Appendix A would, as you **17** 

### know, like to account for what was considered **18** 

### in existing standards. So, DOE is actually **19** 

### accounting for that in its specifications that **20** 

### are effective 30 days after publication of **21** 

### final rules. So, these Appendix A **22** 

### clarifications, DOE is accounting for how

### Page 120

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. 

### 1 

### those equipment were treated in the **2** 

### promulgation of the 2009 energy conservation **3** 

### standards. So, we are thinking about that. **4** 

### We wanted to have the test procedure that **5** 

### comes out of this rulemaking be consistent **6** 

### with what DOE was assuming when they set those **7** 

### 2009 standards. **8** 

### And if those, whatever **9** 

### specifications we are considering here, are **10** 

### inconsistent with what was considered during **11** 

### the 2009 rulemaking for energy conservation **12** 

### standards, then those are the type of changes **13** 

### that would go in Appendix B. **14** 

### So, comments about what is **15** 

### currently done for money processing equipment **16** 

### or what should be done, potentially, in the **17** 

### future, to be representative and consistent **18** 

### are appreciated. **19** 

### Does that help? **20** 

### MR. COLLINS: Well, I guess the **21** 

### main point is that right now there is no **22** 

### specificity in the ASHRAE test standard.

### Page 121

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. 

### 1 

### MS. WIDDER: I agree with that. **2** 

### MR. COLLINS: And, therefore, and **3** 

### I will be the first to raise my hand, all my **4** 

### equipment is tested with no money devices. **5** 

### Right or wrong, it is not mentioned, so it **6** 

### wasn't included. And I would be willing to **7** 

### guess that many of my colleagues would say **8** 

### that is how theirs were tested. **9** 

### So, this would be a "changing **10** 

### horse in the middle of the stream" type of an **11** 

### issue. **12** 

### MS. WIDDER: Okay. Well, thank **13** 

### you. That is exactly the kind of information **14** 

### that we need. I mean, while we want to be **15** 

### consistent with the DOE test procedure, we **16** 

### need to know what manufacturers are doing now **17** 

### to comply. **18** 

### MR. HIEB: Yes, Larry Hieb with **19** 

### SandenVendo America. I concur with Jim. It **20** 

### has never been in our process to include money **21** 

### handling devices in our energy consumption **22** 

### testing. We consider that a separate

### Page 122

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. 

### 1 

### accessory that is, again, variable to our **2** 

### customer. Many of our and most of our **3** 

### equipment goes out without money handling **4** 

### systems. And it is at the discretion of the **5** 

### consumer/customer to install those in many **6** 

### cases and to try to determine which systems to **7** 

### install because there are a wide variety of **8** 

### systems and combinations. **9** 

### We would consider that to be **10** 

### burdensome and should anything be put off to **11** 

### the Appendix B later because if it is not **12** 

### accounted for in the current figures. **13** 

### MS. WIDDER: Okay, thank you for **14** 

### that comment. **15** 

### FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Louis. **16** 

### MR. STARR: Louis Starr. So, it **17** 

### sounds like the crux of the thing is whether **18** 

### it goes in Appendix A or Appendix B. It seems **19** 

### everybody agrees that eventually it should go **20** 

### on Appendix B. But is it just a -- not **21** 

### necessarily. **22** 

### So, Sarah, in your experience, are

### Page 123

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. 

### 1 

### these money-processing devices, and I assume **2** 

### that is with all of these things that you **3** 

### chose to leave in or out are kind of **4** 

### representative of the typical machine. Is **5** 

### that the purpose for including them or not **6** 

### including them? **7** 

### In other words, like the condenser **8** 

### filters you are leaving off because they are **9** 

### only put in harsh conditions but money **10** 

### machines you are putting on because that is **11** 

### what you have seen in the field a lot as far **12** 

### as the equipment? **13** 

### MS. WIDDER: Two things, I think. **14** 

### Yes, this list is meant to be representative **15** 

### of what is typically available on the widely **16** 

### available models. So, when we look out there, **17** 

### I mean I think you can't vend if you can't **18** 

### process money. So, it is difficult for a BVM **19** 

### to meet the definition of a beverage vending **20** 

### machine without some type of coin acceptor in **21** 

### place to accept money from the customer. **22** 

### And then the other criteria that I

### Page 124

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. 

### 1 mentioned that DOE used is whether or not **2 these accessories were accounted for in the 3 setting of the 2009 energy conservation**  **4 standard. 5 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Are we**  **6 ready to move on? Let's move on. 7 MS. WIDDER: Okay. Okay, so**  **8 Appendix B, and just a reminder, although I 9 think we are all clear on that by now, oh,**  **10 it's not on this slide, but Appendix B is 11 intended to be used with any amended energy**  **12 conservation standards that come on the 13 rulemaking we will be discussing this**  **14 afternoon. 15 In general, Appendix B contains**  **16 all of the clarifications that we just 17 discussed that are proposed to be included in**  **18 Appendix A. And in addition, provisions for 19 accounting for a low power mode or a machine**  **20 standby mode, a low power mode test method 21 that would account for the reduced energy**  **22 consumption associated with that type of**

### Page 125

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. 

### 1 

### energy management control. **2** 

### DOE, in reviewing equipment, has **3** 

### found that equipment with a low power mode is **4** 

### widely available. It is an ENERGY STAR **5** 

### requirement and a large percentage of the BVM **6** 

### market is ENERGY STAR qualified certified. **7** 

### However, there is no current test or energy **8** 

### consumption representations around what that **9** 

### low power mode achieves. DOE believes that it **10** 

### would be more representative to have a test **11** 

### that accounts for the availability of that low **12** 

### power mode and gives customers information **13** 

### about some type of estimated energy savings **14** 

### they might achieve. That is pretty much what **15** 

### this -- **16** 

### Oh, and then DOE is also aware **17** 

### that there are specifications around when **18** 

### equipment turns on and off. There is a **19** 

### variety of low power modes available, both **20** 

### modes that address lighting and accessories, **21** 

### I will call them, than refrigeration systems **22** 

### that can also be modulated during this low

### Page 126

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. 

### 1 

### power mode. And so there is a variety of **2** 

### different low power modes that might be **3** 

### available for equipment. **4** 

### DOE is proposing in the subsequent **5** 

### slides a specific test method that can be **6** 

### consistently applied across equipment equipped **7** 

### with any lower power modes, but it wouldn't **8** 

### capture the variability in all of those **9** 

### different -- if there is different like **10** 

### lighting levels that could be selected. **11** 

### All right, so the current DOE BVM **12** 

### test procedure specifies that equipment should **13** 

### be operated with normal lighting and control **14** 

### settings, using only those energy management **15** 

### controls that are permanently operational and **16** 

### not capable of being adjusted by the machine **17** 

### operator. And since most low power modes are **18** 

### capable of being adjusted by the machine **19** 

### operator, they cannot be currently employed **20** 

### during the DOE test procedure. **21** 

### So, we are going to get into some **22** 

### definitions and then the specific test

### Page 127

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. 

### 1 provisions. There is quite a few slides and **2 all the requests for comment are saved until 3 the end. But I would encourage people to**  **4 interrupt me if there is things you want to 5 discuss on a specific slide.**  **6 So, the first definition DOE is 7 proposing to define in Appendix B, "low power**  **8 mode," which is a state in which a beverage 9 vending machine's lighting, refrigeration,**  **10 and/or other energy-using systems are 11 automatically adjusted without user**  **12 intervention, such that they consume less 13 energy than they consume in an active vending**  **14 environment. 15 And DOE intended "without user**  **16 intervention" to be treated differently than 17 the previous "not capable of being adjusted".**  **18 It just means that you don't have to go and 19 manually move -- engage the low power mode,**  **20 that it is automatically, based on a schedule 21 that the operator may have set, or some sort**  **22 of occupancy sensor, that you could set the**

### Page 128

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. 

### 1 

### time interval when occupancy sensor employs. **2** 

### So, that is without user **3** 

### intervention, a little bit different than **4** 

### without manual intervention at all. **5** 

### Two more proposed definitions. I **6** 

### mentioned that there is two types of low power **7** 

### modes and DOE is proposing to define those **8** 

### explicitly and treat them differently in the **9** 

### test procedure. And accessory low power mode, **10** 

### which is a state in which a beverage vending **11** 

### machine's lighting and/or other energy-using **12** 

### systems, except the refrigeration system are **13** 

### in low power mode. So, this could include **14** 

### dimming lights, turning off the illuminated **15** 

### temperature displays. **16** 

### Some of the specifications that we **17** 

### saw before in Appendix A, those equipment, **18** 

### those accessories that were listed out on the **19** 

### previous slide, to the extent that they can be **20** 

### controlled by a low power mode, they would be **21** 

### able to be controlled by this low power mode. **22** 

### So, that is accessory low power mode.

### Page 129

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. 

### 1 

### Refrigeration low power mode is a **2** 

### state in which a beverage vending machine's **3** 

### refrigeration system is in low power mode. **4** 

### And then we have in the definition contained **5** 

### there, don't worry about the words right now, **6** 

### it is a verification test procedure similar to **7** 

### the optional test procedure about fully cooled **8** 

### and not fully cooled. DOE wanted an explicit **9** 

### quantifiable method to determine whether or **10** 

### not manufacturers had this refrigeration low **11** 

### power mode. So, that is contained within the **12** 

### definition here. We will get into it in a few **13** 

### more details in more detail. **14** 

### But the point of this slide is we **15** 

### are just going to define these two little **16** 

### types of low power mode differently because **17** 

### they are proposed to be treated differently in **18** 

### the DOE test procedure. **19** 

### FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Let's just **20** 

### see if we have any comments here. Comments on **21** 

### these three definitions, low power mode, **22** 

### accessory low power mode, and refrigeration

### Page 130

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. 

### 1 

### low power mode? **2** 

### MS. WIDDER: You know I think it **3** 

### will become more clear once say why we **4** 

### separated them. So, let's keep going and then **5** 

### we will come back. Okay. **6** 

### So, test methods. DOE considered **7** 

### several different options for how to account **8** 

### for low power mode in the DOE test procedure. **9** 

### This blue one on the bottom is DOE's proposal. **10** 

### DOE considered separate physical tests, where **11** 

### you would test the beverage vending machine in **12** 

### full active mode, in accordance with the **13** 

### current DOE test procedure, and then a **14** 

### separate test, that may or may not be the same **15** 

### length of time, with all systems that are **16** 

### controlled by a low power mode, de-energized **17** 

### or being controlled by that energy management **18** 

### system in a consistent fashion and somehow **19** 

### adding those together with the algorithm. **20** 

### The nice thing about it, it is **21** 

### clean, it is quantitative and unambiguous. **22** 

### The main problem with that is it is

### Page 131

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. 

### 1 

### additionally burdensome because you have two **2** 

### tests and it does not capture pull-down energy **3** 

### use. So, if the refrigeration system is **4** 

### allowed to increase the temperature setting or **5** 

### float during the low power mode, with two **6** 

### separate tests you are not capturing the **7** 

### energy consumption of pulling that machine **8** 

### back down to 36 degrees to the vending **9** 

### temperature again. **10** 

### So, another method DOE considered **11** 

### is a single test where you would start with 18 **12** 

### hours in vending state, which would be that **13** 

### active mode; 6 hours in low power mode, as was **14** 

### previously defined. And that is your 24 hour **15** 

### test period. And then you would have a pull**16** 

### down that would occur after that and get you **17** 

### to capture the energy consumption associated **18** 

### with getting back to vending temperature. **19** 

### And then an algorithm could be **20** 

### developed whereby that energy consumption, **21** 

### which is now more than 24 hours, could be **22** 

### scaled back to 24 hours, since that is the

### Page 132

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. 

### 1 

### metric: energy consumption in a 24-hour **2** 

### period. **3** 

### But one could consider how **4** 

### temporally you can scale that back. And DOE, **5** 

### I think, discussed in a little more detail or **6** 

### method in the NOPR, which I can discuss but I **7** 

### am not going to now, but if folks are **8** 

### interested. **9** 

### So, the difficulty with this **10** 

### method -- it is nice because it is **11** 

### quantitative, unambiguous and it captures the **12** 

### variation among low power modes. So, if one **13** 

### manufacturer is different than another **14** 

### manufacturer, you are getting all that. The **15** 

### problem is manufacturers have a lot of **16** 

### different lengths of pull-down, ways of **17** 

### pulling down, temperatures they get to. And **18** 

### that variability around how low power mode is **19** 

### implemented through refrigeration low power **20** 

### mode makes it very difficult to specify when **21** 

### a machine should start pulling down and when **22** 

### you are done and how to get that back into the

### Page 133

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. 

### 1 

### test procedure in a consistent way without **2** 

### really like input from the manufacturer. **3** 

### So just for example, DOE tried to **4** 

### implement these different low power mode test **5** 

### methods on some equipment and there is some **6** 

### equipment that pulled down very quickly, some **7** 

### that take in excess of six hours to pull down. **8** 

### So, there is a lot of variability **9** 

### there. And because of that variability and **10** 

### potential input from manufacturers that would **11** 

### be necessary to conduct consistent tests and **12** 

### lack of data really in how this would go, DOE **13** 

### is proposing this third method, which is a **14** 

### single 18-hour vending state test, a 6-hour **15** 

### accessory-only low power mode test. So the **16** 

### accessory-only low power mode test won't have, **17** 

### you don't have that pull-down issue. You just **18** 

### turn things off and turn things on. It is a **19** 

### lot easier to do for manufacturers and DOE in **20** 

### a consistent way. **21** 

### And then we still want to give **22** 

### manufacturers credit for accommodating

### Page 134

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. 

### 1 

### refrigeration low power mode. So, based on **2** 

### DOE's testing, a representative number was **3** 

### developed, a credit that could be given to **4** 

### manufacturers if they have refrigeration low **5** 

### power mode. **6** 

### So, the measured daily energy **7** 

### consumption would be the 24-hour energy **8** 

### consumption measured during the test, during **9** 

### the 18-hour vending state and the 6-hour **10** 

### accessory-only low power mode times this **11** 

### refrigeration low power mode credit. **12** 

### So the benefit is quantitative, **13** 

### easy to implement. The main thing about this **14** 

### test procedure is it does not capture the **15** 

### variation among refrigeration low power modes. **16** 

### So, one manufacturer may do it better than the **17** 

### other one. This one gives everybody the same **18** 

### amount of credit. **19** 

### So, this is just a rundown of how **20** 

### the physical test would be conducted. So, **21** 

### there is still a 12-hour stabilization period **22** 

### that is required for ASHRAE. Zero to 18 hours

### Page 135

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. 

### 1 

### a vending state test period occurs, where all **2** 

### equipment and accessories are energized as **3** 

### specified in Appendix A. We went through that **4** 

### list. Adjustable energy management controls, **5** 

### however, would be set to the highest or **6** 

### maximum energy consuming space. And this is **7** 

### now changing from the way beverage vending **8** 

### machines are currently tested. Right now, you **9** 

### are not allowed to interact with the beverage **10** 

### vending machine during testing. It is **11** 

### specified specifically in the test procedure **12** 

### that no stimulation, no interaction should **13** 

### occur. **14** 

### In this vending state test period, **15** 

### it is meant to represent an active vending **16** 

### environment. And so manufacturers or testing **17** 

### lab personnel would provide whatever **18** 

### stimulation is necessary, pushing buttons or **19** 

### just walking by the machine that would prevent **20** 

### the engagement of low power modes during this **21** 

### 18 hours. **22** 

### And then from 18 to 24 hours, the

### Page 136

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. 

### 1 

### operation of accessary low power modes would **2** 

### be allowed. So, if for example, lighting was **3** 

### on an occupancy sensor, then that stimulation **4** 

### would no longer be required. The low power **5** 

### mode could be initiated for the remainder of **6** 

### the 24-hour test for those six hours. **7** 

### FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Subarna has **8** 

### a question or a comment. **9** 

### MS. WIDDER: Okay, sure. Great. **10** 

### FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Subarna, **11** 

### you are on. **12** 

### MR. MALAKAR: Yes, the question we **13** 

### had was for the procedure for the vending **14** 

### test. We were just wondering like when you -- **15** 

### vending meaning like we have to do the vending **16** 

### itself? **17** 

### MS. WIDDER: No. **18** 

### MR. MALAKAR: I just want to make **19** 

### sure like -- just running that -- **20** 

### MR. DRENTEN: Where is that **21** 

### described in any detailed procedure anywhere? **22** 

### MS. WIDDER: So, the vending state

### Page 137

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. 

### 1 

### test is you do not have to vend anything. You **2** 

### have to operate the beverage vending machine **3** 

### so that it meets, in general, this **4** 

### requirement. It is specified more exclusively **5** 

### in the regulatory text that is at the back of **6** 

### the notice and also in the preamble. **7** 

### But, in general, it would be **8** 

### similar to the existing DOE test procedure, **9** 

### except that even energy management systems **10** 

### that cannot be adjusted by the manufacturer, **11** 

### which are allowed to be initiated right now, **12** 

### so for example, if you had a default occupancy **13** 

### sensor that no one could operate, that would **14** 

### be allowed in the current DOE test procedure. **15** 

### And in this proposed test procedure or during **16** 

### the vending state, all energy management **17** 

### systems would be disabled. The intent is, you **18** 

### don't have to vend but you do want to capture **19** 

### the energy consumption of the beverage vending **20** 

### machine in an active state for those 18 hours. **21** 

### MR. MALAKAR: So, this is **22** 

### significantly different than how we have been

### Page 138

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. 

### 1 

### doing. Right? **2** 

### MS. WIDDER: Yes. **3** 

### MR. MALAKAR: So, will it be **4** 

### permanently updated? **5** 

### MS. WIDDER: No. I mean -- you **6** 

### mean the standard? The standard is -- **7** 

### So, these proposals that we are **8** 

### discussing right now are all to be included in **9** 

### Appendix B, which is only required for use **10** 

### with amended energy conservation standards. **11** 

### So, you don't have to do this to meet existing **12** 

### standards. **13** 

### So, this afternoon, we are going **14** 

### to talk about amended standards that are **15** 

### accounting for all of these new proposed test **16** 

### methods. **17** 

### MR. MALAKAR: So what incentive do **18** 

### we have to go to this test, this amended -- **19** 

### what is the reason? I mean it looks like you **20** 

### are creating two test procedure methods for **21** 

### standards. **22** 

### MS. ARMSTRONG: So, this is Ashley

### Page 139

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. 

### 1 

### from DOE. So, two things. One is you **2** 

### wouldn't be allowed to use Appendix B to show **3** 

### compliance with the current standards. The **4** 

### current standards were not built upon Appendix **5** 

### B. You would have to use the current test **6** 

### procedure or to the extent that the proposal **7** 

### for clarifications get adopted here in **8** 

### Appendix A. Use that to show compliance with **9** 

### Appendix A. **10** 

### Now, as you know, DOE, which is **11** 

### the topic of this afternoon's meeting, DOE has **12** 

### been triggered to review the energy **13** 

### conservation standards for beverage vending **14** 

### machines to see whether more stringent **15** 

### standards may meet our statutory criteria. **16** 

### Part of that would also trigger to **17** 

### review the test procedure. One of the points **18** 

### of feedback that we have gotten from a variety **19** 

### of interested parties was there are these **20** 

### presence of low power modes. There is a low **21** 

### power mode and then there is like the **22** 

### refrigeration accessory low power mode, which

### Page 140

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. 

### 1 

### we call a refrigeration low power mode. **2** 

### So, some people argue that they **3** 

### would like some type of -- incentivize that **4** 

### type of behavior that control strategy that is **5** 

### being implemented in the field. Our current **6** 

### test procedure does not adopt for it at all. **7** 

### The current standards do not reflect it. **8** 

### In the future, if DOE were to **9** 

### accomplish amended standards and require the **10** 

### use of an Appendix B, it would be required to **11** 

### then use also Appendix A. We would transition **12** 

### wholesale to Appendix B with these amended **13** 

### standards. That may reflect low power mode. **14** 

### So, really the question becomes **15** 

### does industry and other stakeholders, **16** 

### utilities, advocates as well, believe that **17** 

### inclusion of low power mode in the test method **18** 

### is the right way to go. And then, if the **19** 

### answer is yes, this is our proposal on how we **20** 

### propose to do it and we welcome your views on **21** 

### that, obviously. **22** 

### MR. DRENTEN: So Ashley, this is

### Page 141

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. 

### 1 

### Doug Drenten. So, if I am understanding what **2** 

### you have said, if we, as participants, agree, **3** 

### and other interested parties with the idea of **4** 

### having a low power state, what you are **5** 

### specifying at the moment is the test method **6** 

### that you are proposing to be used. Correct? **7** 

### MS. ARMSTRONG: Correct. **8** 

### MR. DRENTEN: So, how do we -- and **9** 

### Ashley, maybe we are going to discuss this in **10** 

### a lot more detail this afternoon, but how did **11** 

### you come up with the 18 hours? **12** 

### MS. WIDDER: We are not going to **13** 

### discuss that this afternoon but there is in a **14** 

### few minutes and right now because I am going **15** 

### to say it, we request comment on if 18 hours **16** 

### is the right amount and if 6 hours is the **17** 

### right amount for low power mode. **18** 

### MS. ARMSTRONG: So, the honest **19** 

### answer, Sarah is going to toe the line here **20** 

### but the honest answer is we struggled quite a **21** 

### bit with this procedure, this proposal. And **22** 

### we went back and forth.

### Page 142

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. 

### 1 

### We did quite a bit of testing on **2** 

### our own and it was hard. And each person, **3** 

### each manufacturer in different models employ **4** 

### low power mode in different manners. So, it **5** 

### is hard to write a uniform applicable test **6** 

### that can be done both by the manufacturer and **7** 

### can be done by a third party that will react **8** 

### and put a BVM or at least verify that a BVM **9** 

### goes into low power mode either through its **10** 

### accessories or through its refrigeration **11** 

### system or both for some significant duration **12** 

### to show that it actually when put in the **13** 

### field, will operate in a low power state. It **14** 

### will save energy. And the reason why that is **15** 

### important here for verification purposes is **16** 

### because on the next couple slides you will see **17** 

### is we are propose to give credit for that. **18** 

### And so with that credit, comes in **19** 

### the incentive to do it but we want to make **20** 

### sure that that is actually being realized in **21** 

### the field. **22** 

### That is where we are coming from.

### Page 143

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. 

### 1 

### If you have a better way to do it, we are all **2** 

### ears. Because like I said, we struggled with **3** 

### this for a while. **4** 

### MR. DRENTEN: I was just more **5** 

### curious as to how you got the particular 18 **6** 

### hours, 6 hours, and 12 hours. **7** 

### MS. ARMSTRONG: I think some of it **8** 

### was testing. Some of it was based on the **9** 

### testing that we had seen and what we feel **10** 

### comfortable was long enough to say something **11** 

### has actually been put in low power mode versus **12** 

### something was just put there for a test **13** 

### condition versus a variety of different **14** 

### methods. **15** 

### MS. WIDDER: And so, I mean, **16** 

### essentially what the 18 hours and the 6 hours **17** 

### is doing is establishing a usage profile for **18** 

### the BVM. That is what it is. And the usage **19** 

### profile for BVM can be anything from zero **20** 

### hours for the BVMs that are on every floor of **21** 

### a hotel to 24 hours. You know you could **22** 

### imagine scenarios where there is a BVM in a

### Page 144

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. 

### 1 

### place that sees a lot of traffic, in an **2** 

### airport, all day long, and is interacted with **3** 

### or people are walking in front of it all the **4** 

### time. **5** 

### And so, there is a lot of **6** 

### variability in usage profiles out there for **7** 

### BVMs. And so this was what we selected as **8** 

### potentially representative and consistent **9** 

### across equipment. It won't be representative **10** 

### of everything, obviously, but you have got to **11** 

### pick something and then implement it for all **12** 

### models. **13** 

### So, if there is a reason that it **14** 

### should be different than six hours and a **15** 

### better number, a better number of hours to **16** 

### employ a low power mode that DOE would welcome **17** 

### feedback on that but this is our proposal **18** 

### based on the information and data that is **19** 

### available. **20** 

### So this was, in specific, **21** 

### developed on a typical operating hours of like **22** 

### stores. If a store is going to close or have

### Page 145

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. 

### 1 

### periods of low use, it is typically at night, **2** 

### you know a gas station might be closed or like **3** 

### have people not going into the store and **4** 

### purchasing beverages for some amount of time. **5** 

### FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Larry, do **6** 

### you have a comment? **7** 

### MR. HIEB: Yes, Larry Hieb, **8** 

### SandenVendo. **9** 

### Just for clarification, if a **10** 

### vending machine has an automatic feature that **11** 

### shuts the lights off, for example, after two **12** 

### hours of inactivity, would there be stimuli **13** 

### put into the test during that 18 hours to turn **14** 

### those lights back on through that period? **15** 

### MS. WIDDER: Correct. That is **16** 

### what is proposed here, so that you have a **17** 

### period that -- so, DOE currently if that **18** 

### energy management system can't be operated or **19** 

### controlled by the machine operator, and can't **20** 

### be adjusted by the machine operator, that **21** 

### occupancy sensor could turn off the lights, **22** 

### essentially, for the duration of the test,

### Page 146

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. 

### 1 

### which may or may not be representative of a **2** 

### field use. In this proposal we are proposing **3** 

### that it may not represent the field use of **4** 

### typical equipment and so that that equipment **5** 

### should be on for 18 hours and off for -- **6** 

### lighting would be off for 6 hours. **7** 

### MR. HIEB: So, is it understood **8** 

### then that the DEC data or the DEC allowance **9** 

### would need to be increased because current **10** 

### test methods allow for the lights to be turned **11** 

### off for the duration of the tests? **12** 

### MS. WIDDER: Well, there are two **13** 

### factors here. One is the energy use may **14** 

### increase during the ending stage test period **15** 

### but would also decrease because of the **16** 

### refrigeration low power mode credit, which I **17** 

### have not gotten to yet. **18** 

### But the answer is yes. The answer **19** 

### is we are going to talk about that this **20** 

### afternoon. And the energy conservation **21** 

### standard numbers and analysis was all done **22** 

### using these proposals as the basis. So,

### Page 147

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. 

### 1 

### assuming this. **2** 

### MS. ARMSTRONG: The real answer is **3** 

### whatever the impacts are from the proposals **4** 

### that we are going to make and that we did make **5** 

### and meet will be carried through to the **6** 

### numbers you see this afternoon. **7** 

### MR. HIEB: So, it may be at an **8** 

### increase not just a decrease. **9** 

### MS. ARMSTRONG: Not necessarily. **10** 

### I mean it just depends. We will do our **11** 

### analysis and you will see this afternoon where **12** 

### our analysis shows. It may not necessarily be **13** 

### an increase. For your unit, it may be. But **14** 

### our analysis may not show an increase. **15** 

### FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Louis. **16** 

### MR. STARR: So, this is Louis **17** 

### Starr, Northwest Energy Efficiency Alliance. **18** 

### We are definitely supporting the **19** 

### Department of Energy including these in their **20** 

### test procedure, because we feel that it will **21** 

### encourage the use of the refrigeration low **22** 

### power mode and accessory low power mode.

### Page 148

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. 

### 1 

### The one thing I would say, it **2** 

### sounds like we will talk about this low power **3** 

### refrigeration mode, I sort of looked in the **4** 

### PTSD about that. And it looks very **5** 

### conservative now but there may actually be **6** 

### more energy savings that are shown there and **7** 

### a manufacturer can comment on that. **8** 

### The other thing I would say is **9** 

### that in your definition of refrigeration low **10** 

### power mode, you would probably want to include **11** 

### something about how that is activated because **12** 

### I might -- let's say I am a manufacturer that **13** 

### doesn't really have a low power mode in there, **14** 

### I could claim that credit by maybe putting a **15** 

### button on the side of the machine that you **16** 

### would press. It would go into that but it **17** 

### would not really be activated otherwise. **18** 

### So, I would be concerned about **19** 

### people talking credit, the three percent **20** 

### credit doesn't allow an energy savings by **21** 

### having that but that it be a real one that is **22** 

### actually activated by some external source.

### Page 149

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. 

### 1 

### MS. WIDDER: So, that is a great **2** 

### segue into the refrigeration lower power mode **3** 

### credit and then the verification procedures. **4** 

### So, for that very reason, and then also **5** 

### because it is -- so for that very reason, yes. **6** 

### To verify the existence of low power mode, DOE **7** 

### is also considering a verification test, which **8** 

### is also optional but it is how DOE will **9** 

### confirm that that low power mode credit was **10** 

### taken accurately. **11** 

### So, first the number. The low **12** 

### power mode credit based on DOE's limited **13** 

### testing, I will admit, is three percent of an **14** 

### estimated amount of savings on the measured **15** 

### daily energy consumption that would come from **16** 

### a 6-hour refrigeration low power mode, also, **17** 

### accounting for pull down. **18** 

### So, DOE requests comment on that **19** 

### number. It is somewhat conservative and there **20** 

### is certainly variability within that but that **21** 

### is DOE's, based on our testing, a reasonable **22** 

### number to incentivize use of refrigeration low

### Page 150

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. 

### 1 

### power modes. **2** 

### I will also note that DOE would -- **3** 

### as DOE becomes more comfortable or as **4** 

### refrigeration low power modes are more widely **5** 

### used, there is potential to develop a test **6** 

### method that could quantifiably determine what **7** 

### the refrigeration low power mode was for **8** 

### specific models. But because of the issues we **9** 

### talked about before, that is not being **10** 

### considered here or proposed here. **11** 

### So, the verification test that you **12** 

### were getting to. So, since taking the credit **13** 

### won't verify the existence of this **14** 

### refrigeration low power mode, you want it to **15** 

### accommodate some sort of check that could be **16** 

### done to verify existence of a low power mode. **17** 

### And essentially what it is, is at the end of **18** 

### the BVM test procedure, you would allow the **19** 

### equipment to continue to operate and initiate **20** 

### the refrigeration low power mode. **21** 

### The requirements are that over the **22** 

### course of this 2-hour period, the

### Page 151

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. 

### 1 

### instantaneous average next-to-vend beverage **2** 

### temperature must increase above 40 degrees **3** 

### Fahrenheit and remain above 40 degrees **4** 

### Fahrenheit for at least one hour. So, in an **5** 

### hour, you have to get from 36 to 40 and then **6** 

### be maintained above 40. **7** 

### And Louis, it is not written on **8** 

### this slide, but in the reg text and in the **9** 

### NOPR, that refrigeration low power mode has to **10** 

### be activated without user -- has to be **11** 

### activated automatically I think is the word **12** 

### that is used. **13** 

### I mean it could be something that **14** 

### refrigeration low power modes could be timer **15** 

### based. So, you know if a facility is closed, **16** 

### you are going to turn the refrigeration system **17** 

### off at 10:00 p.m. or something like that. And **18** 

### that is allowed but you would have to pre**19** 

### program that and it would automatically **20** 

### initiate. **21** 

### And then at the conclusion, to be **22** 

### sure that the equipment can in fact bring it

### Page 152

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. 

### 1 

### down, we don't care about the energy **2** 

### consumption at this point, but at the **3** 

### conclusion of the 2-hour period, the BVM must **4** 

### automatically return to 36 plus or minus 2 **5** 

### without operator intervention. **6** 

### The validation test, as I **7** 

### mentioned, would not be required to certify **8** 

### performance and DOE will use it for **9** 

### enforcement purposes only. **10** 

### So, here is the request for **11** 

### comment. I think that is all that is left. **12** 

### Yes, okay. **13** 

### So, on the definitions, as Doug **14** 

### mentioned previously, we can go backwards, the **15** 

### vending state. DOE requests comment on its **16** 

### proposal to run units in the vending state for **17** 

### 18 hours and to specify whatever stimuli is **18** 

### necessary to prevent automatic activation of **19** 

### low power modes, now that they have been **20** 

### defined in Appendix B. **21** 

### The refrigeration low power mode, **22** 

### DOE requests comment on the credit, the amount

### Page 153

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. 

### 1 

### of the credit, and the verification test **2** 

### method that we just discussed. Particularly, **3** 

### if a one-hour time period in which the **4** 

### instantaneous average of all test packages was **5** 

### maintained above 40 degrees, that is the **6** 

### appropriate amount of time, if that is **7** 

### possible, to get from 36 to 40 based on our **8** 

### thermodynamic calculations seems reasonable **9** 

### but is a lot of different insulation levels, **10** 

### infiltration, things that will affect how **11** 

### quickly the temperature changes in the box. **12** 

### So, input from manufacturers on **13** 

### what that time frame should be. Forty degrees **14** 

### seemed reasonable because we need to be far **15** 

### enough away from the specified temperature **16** 

### that we know we are really getting something. **17** 

### But that also requests comment on the 40 **18** 

### degrees. **19** 

### And then these are some general **20** 

### comments, general requests for comments on low **21** 

### power mode, whether it is representative of **22** 

### equipment, that user profile that we were

### Page 154

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. 

### 1 

### discussing, whether six hours is the right **2** 

### amount. **3** 

### There is also a specific request **4** 

### for a comment in here on the prevalence of **5** 

### non-cycling compressors in the BVM industry. **6** 

### And also a request for comment on we discussed **7** 

### different test methods. We proposed -- this **8** 

### test method is the most appropriate, at least **9** 

### brings a good compromise for what we can do **10** 

### today, most manufacturers and DOE. But if a **11** 

### physical test method would be more **12** 

### representative and if so, how to implement **13** 

### that consistently. **14** 

### FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Several **15** 

### requests for comment. Louis Starr. **16** 

### MR. STARR: So, mine is on the low **17** 

### power mode. So, just thermodynamically if you **18** 

### looked at a test period, you have six hours **19** 

### where you increase the temperature four **20** 

### degrees, from 75 to 36 is 39 degrees; 75 to 40 **21** 

### is 35 degrees. So, essentially, you are **22** 

### adjusting it by ten percent. So during that

### Page 155

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. 

### 1 

### six hours, you get ten percent savings. And **2** 

### then it is only one-fourth of the period. So, **3** 

### 10 percent times one-fourth is 2.4 percent, **4** 

### which is kind of looks like where the 3 **5** 

### percent comes from. **6** 

### Have the manufacturers, would they **7** 

### publish for that particular mode? Would they **8** 

### sell that as a product to customers? Is it in **9** 

### that range? Is it a higher number or what did **10** 

### you typically see as the savings from having **11** 

### the refrigeration power mode increase? **12** 

### MS. WIDDER: I have not, myself, **13** 

### seen estimates of savings from low power **14** 

### modes, only words that say it is available. **15** 

### So, only representations that such a mode is **16** 

### available, not estimates of the energy savings **17** 

### from it. And I think part of that is because **18** 

### there is really no representative way to **19** 

### estimate the savings yet. That is part of **20** 

### what this proposal is about. **21** 

### FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Jim. **22** 

### MR. COLLINS: Jim Collins, AMS.

### Page 156

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. 

### 1 

### Just a comment on that. Our customer base **2** 

### typically never would compare this data and **3** 

### the reason is that the people that buy our **4** 

### equipment and operate it don't pay for **5** 

### electricity. So, it is not a market factor. **6** 

### The second question is, on slide **7** 

### 64 you specified the test period. And as I **8** 

### understood it, this is how you would confirm **9** 

### at DOE that we are following this rule to get **10** 

### our credits. **11** 

### MS. WIDDER: Correct. **12** 

### MR. COLLINS: How will this **13** 

### procedure be implemented? Are you intending **14** 

### to impose upon us some automatic mode that **15** 

### will operate the machine in this manner or do **16** 

### you intend to actually go into the test **17** 

### chamber, reset the equipment temperatures -- **18** 

### MS. WIDDER: No, no. So, what **19** 

### would happen is so if you certified your **20** 

### equipment with a refrigeration low power mode, **21** 

### which you would tell us as part of the **22** 

### proposal is you have to say that I am taking

### Page 157

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. 

### 1 

### the refrigeration low power mode credit. So, **2** 

### if DOE were then testing that equipment, we **3** 

### would test it with the vending state and **4** 

### accessory low power mode test procedure that **5** 

### goes 24 hours. And then if there was like a **6** 

### schedule, it depends, I mean all **7** 

### manufacturers, how they initiate low power **8** 

### mode is different. For it to take this **9** 

### credit, it has to be automatically actuated. **10** 

### So, that could be a schedule-based **11** 

### control or that could be an occupancy sensor**12** 

### based control for some other like interaction**13** 

### based control. So, like if it hadn't seen you **14** 

### touching the screen for a while, it would **15** 

### start to float. **16** 

### So, what would happen is at the **17** 

### end of the test procedure, the equipment would **18** 

### be allowed to operate and for a scheduled base **19** 

### control, that temperature would change -- the **20** 

### thermostat within the equipment would change **21** 

### at the end of the test procedure. **22** 

### For things that had a significant

### Page 158

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. 

### 1 

### occupancy lapse period, we would have to wait **2** 

### for the thermostat for whatever that period **3** 

### is. And then that would initiate the **4** 

### refrigeration low power mode state. Does that **5** 

### make sense? **6** 

### MR. COLLINS: Well again, the way **7** 

### this is stated, it looks like a multiple step **8** 

### process, where you do in and raise the **9** 

### temperature to 40 and then two hours' later go **10** 

### in and reset the temperature back to 36. **11** 

### MS. WIDDER: No, if that is **12** 

### necessary, you don't get a refrigeration low **13** 

### power mode credit. If in order to change the **14** 

### temperature of the equipment, you have go to **15** 

### set the thermostat, that is not a **16** 

### refrigeration low power mode. **17** 

### FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Louis. **18** 

### MR. STARR: I think maybe I can **19** 

### clarify. You essentially just get three **20** 

### percent credit but you have to have a mode **21** 

### that really works. **22** 

### FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: It is

### Page 159

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. 

### 1 

### automatic. **2** 

### MS. WIDDER: Right. **3** 

### MR. STARR: Right. So, they are **4** 

### just giving you a three percent credit to **5** 

### encourage you to put these in your machines. **6** 

### And if it is there and it really works like it **7** 

### is supposed to work -- **8** 

### MR. COLLINS: Well you keep **9** 

### specifying that this is how it is supposed to **10** 

### work. I would maintain I have a better **11** 

### program in place right now and it doesn't work **12** 

### this way at all. **13** 

### MS. WIDDER: Well, then that kind **14** 

### of information -- so all we are trying to **15** 

### achieve with the refrigeration verification **16** 

### test procedure is that it exists and **17** 

### automatically will work. And so, if this **18** 

### isn't the right way to verify that, then we **19** 

### would like suggestions on what the way to **20** 

### verify it is. **21** 

### We just don't want people taking **22** 

### three percent credits and having to do what

### Page 160

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. 

### 1 

### you said, which is go in and change. That is **2** 

### not the credit. **3** 

### MS. ARMSTRONG: Just to be clear **4** 

### here, we are not trying to tell you how your **5** 

### refrigeration should work. That is obviously **6** 

### up to you and you guys should know that way **7** 

### better than we would ever. **8** 

### But like Sarah said, you would **9** 

### need a way to, on the back end, verify that **10** 

### you actually had employed one without -- an **11** 

### automatic, a confirmed one that you have set **12** 

### up. **13** 

### And so that is what we are looking **14** 

### to do. And if this test isn't the right one, **15** 

### we need to know one that is. **16** 

### FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Scott, do **17** 

### you have a comment? **18** 

### MR. MITCHELL: Yes, Scott **19** 

### Mitchell, Southern California Edison. **20** 

### I think these comments might have **21** 

### taken care of it but the way that this is **22** 

### written right now looks to me like it would

### Page 161

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. 

### 1 

### require some sort of software modifications **2** 

### from what was originally included in the **3** 

### machine, in order to do this test method as it **4** 

### is written. **5** 

### So, I would just encourage the **6** 

### manufacturers, who have much better knowledge **7** 

### of it, to make comments on it. **8** 

### MR. WILLIAMS: Rolando Williams, **9** 

### SandenVendo. **10** 

### Our machine is programmable by the **11** 

### consumer. So, they can put it in whatever **12** 

### time they need to do with when they go and **13** 

### shut off something and it raises the **14** 

### temperature. Everything is programmable. **15** 

### FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: So, does **16** 

### that mean that this is workable from your **17** 

### perspective? **18** 

### MR. HIEB: It's workable. **19** 

### MS. WIDDER: So that was the kind **20** 

### of control that DOE had in mind when they **21** 

### developed this verification test. And there **22** 

### are dynamic options and schedule options. But

### Page 162

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. 

### 1 

### if you can automatically schedule, the **2** 

### temperature will rise at the end of the test **3** 

### -- at the end of the vending and accessory **4** 

### mode low power mode testing, you wouldn't have **5** 

### to verify the existence of a dynamic mode in **6** 

### addition. That scheduling-based function is **7** 

### fine. That meets the intent of the low power **8** 

### mode. **9** 

### This is just a verification test. **10** 

### Manufacturers don't have to do it. This is **11** 

### just a QA method to ensure that we are **12** 

### actually going to see these savings in the **13** 

### field. That is really what it is for. **14** 

### FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: And Linda **15** 

### Wilson and Mike Mau, I guess. Mike, I guess **16** 

### I pronounced your name incorrectly previously. **17** 

### You are next. Please go ahead. **18** 

### Un-mute your phone. We can't hear **19** 

### you. **20** 

### MR. MAU: Hi, Mike Mau. Was there **21** 

### testing done in order to verify periods to **22** 

### raise the ambient temperature to 40 degrees

### Page 163

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. 

### 1 

### from 36 and then also for the 2-hour period **2** 

### that automatically occurred for 36 degrees. **3** 

### I'm just curious about that. I **4** 

### haven't ever done this kind of test to verify **5** 

### how fast the products warm up. I kind of take **6** 

### DOE at your word. **7** 

### MS. WIDDER: So, I'll be honest. **8** 

### No. Those numbers weren't developed based on **9** 

### testing. They were developed based on just **10** 

### some thermodynamic calculations that I -- **11** 

### MS. ARMSTRONG: That's not true. **12** 

### We did do some testing. **13** 

### MS. WIDDER: Okay. **14** 

### MS. ARMSTRONG: We did do some -- **15** 

### MS. WIDDER: But did we do this **16** 

### teat? **17** 

### MS. ARMSTRONG: Uh-huh. The two**18** 

### hour rise definitely was seen in testing from **19** 

### products commercially available today. **20** 

### MS. WIDDER: That being said -- **21** 

### MR. MAU: This is Mike. I **22** 

### couldn't hear you.

### Page 164

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. 

### 1 

### MS. ARMSTRONG: Sorry. The answer **2** 

### is yes. We did do testing from products that **3** 

### are commercial available today for the two**4** 

### hour rise. **5** 

### FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Louis. **6** 

### MR. STARR: This is Louis Starr. **7** 

### The concern I have with the schedule of the **8** 

### low power refrigeration mode is that it is **9** 

### pretty easy to change or put in something to **10** 

### a schedule and have it changed. It is also **11** 

### likely that it might not actually be **12** 

### implemented. **13** 

### So, one that actually goes ahead **14** 

### and is either through occupancy sensors or **15** 

### some other way, if nothing else, seems like it **16** 

### should be credited at a different rate than **17** 

### one that potentially could be but most likely **18** 

### wouldn't be. **19** 

### And I would say the other thing is **20** 

### if you do do it that way, it seems like we **21** 

### should later on look to see if people are **22** 

### actually using the schedules or not. Because

### Page 165

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. 

### 1 

### as you know, these machines can maybe do a lot **2** 

### of things but if the consumers don't configure **3** 

### them that way, then you don't really get the **4** 

### savings. But if it is something programmed in **5** 

### the hardware, then it goes into this mode, **6** 

### then it is more likely for it to actually be **7** 

### implemented in the field and actually see **8** 

### those savings. That is one of the concerns **9** 

### that we might have. **10** 

### MS. WIDDER: Okay, thank you. **11** 

### FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Linda **12** 

### Wilson has a question. Linda asks, will the **13** 

### EPA proposed SNAP rule have any impact on the **14** 

### testing methods (i.e., eliminating of HFC **15** 

### refrigerants)? **16** 

### MS. WIDDER: I do not believe that **17** 

### it will have any impact on the test procedure. **18** 

### MS. ARMSTRONG: Right. So, I **19** 

### think the answer is -- so, I think that is **20** 

### true, that the test is going to be **21** 

### refrigerant. The test is the test. **22** 

### Now, that being said, I think the

### Page 166

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. 

### 1 

### answer is that we don't know exactly how it **2** 

### will impact the number coming out of the test. **3** 

### And really we are going to ask you guys a **4** 

### question and I think we are going to hit on **5** 

### this maybe a little bit this afternoon. But **6** 

### whether it will impact the number coming out **7** 

### of the test and whether the value levels that **8** 

### you see currently on the market today will **9** 

### change, if the upper limits are used and **10** 

### certain ones are phased out. **11** 

### And so, I think the answer from **12** 

### the Department is we are not sure. From the **13** 

### test procedure point of view, we believe the **14** 

### test is a valid method of test and is **15** 

### refrigerant useful. **16** 

### But for the standards, it is a **17** 

### different issue. **18** 

### FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: I would **19** 

### like to see if we have additional comments on **20** 

### these other comment boxes here. I don't **21** 

### believe we have hit all of you yet. **22** 

### I do believe that the final two

### Page 167

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. 

### 1 

### slides, 67 and 68. So, state additional and **2** 

### perhaps final comments because it is just **3** 

### about time to go to lunch. **4** 

### MS. WIDDER: So hearing none, the **5** 

### last section of this slide deck is a request **6** 

### for any closing remarks that any interested **7** 

### parties would like to make about the test **8** 

### procedure and how to submit comments. You can **9** 

### refer to those details in your packet. **10** 

### And then as Doug noted, we will be **11** 

### starting up the energy conservation standard **12** 

### after lunch. **13** 

### FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Let me know **14** 

### and reiterate what someone said early on. **15** 

### Some of this, it seems that it is new enough **16** 

### and complicated enough that your detailed **17** 

### written comments would be very helpful to the **18** 

### Department. Very, very helpful. So, please, **19** 

### if you walk away from this morning's session **20** 

### and think about how to put that together in a **21** 

### way that you can really amplify your concerns **22** 

### better.

### Page 168

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. 

### 1 

### So, let's break for lunch. It is **2** 

### now 12:15. It takes pretty much an hour to **3** 

### have lunch here in the Forrestal Building and **4** 

### that is if you stay on campus. Please don't **5** 

### leave. There is big cafeteria about 100 yards **6** 

### down the hallway that a way. **7** 

### For those of you, does anybody not **8** 

### know where they are going? Most everyone **9** 

### does. There will be a bunch of folks trooping **10** 

### in that direction. Please make sure you have **11** 

### your badge visible. **12** 

### If you go to the big cafeteria, **13** 

### which is where most of us will be going, you **14** 

### might need, you will probably need an ID to **15** 

### get back through the security portal. **16** 

### This room will be secured. You **17** 

### can leave your stuff here. **18** 

### And you know where the restrooms **19** 

### are. **20** 

### We covered a lot of ground this **21** 

### morning. We are going to cover even more this **22** 

### afternoon. We will see you back here at 1:15.

### Page 169

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. 

### 1 

### And thanks those of you joining us **2** 

### online. Hang with us. We are going to start **3** 

### again at 1:15. **4** 

### (Whereupon, the above-entitled **5** 

### matter went off the record at 12:17 p.m.) **6 7**  **8 9**  **10 11**  **12 13**  **14 15**  **16 17**  **18 19**  **20 21**  **22**202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. 

### Page 170 A a.m 1:11 4:2 8:20 106:21,22 able44:10,20 51:2

63:18 65:5 66:2 72:6 74:7,10 95:16 97:10 112:3 128:21 above-entitled 106:20 169:4 accept76:20 79:1

89:19 105:21 123:21 acceptable 60:14

81:3 acceptor 123:20 access 63:17 accessary 136:1 accessible 10:5 accessories 88:16

88:20 89:13 103:17 104:13 107:5,5 115:9,22 124:2 125:20 128:18 135:2 142:10 accessory 92:8,12 116:11,13 117:1 122:1 128:9,22 129:22 139:22 147:22 157:4 162:3 accessory-only 133:15,16 134:10 accommodate

67:19 93:15 110:20 115:19 150:15 accommodating

32:9,17 38:4 95:5 133:22 accompany 65:21 accomplish 140:9 accomplished

58:12,13 account 15:5 66:10

98:20 119:17 124:21 130:7 accounted 122:12 124:2 accounting 119:19 119:22 124:19 138:15 149:17 accounts 125:11 accurately 149:10 achievable43:2 achieve 125:14 159:15 achieves 125:9 Act 11:6 activated 91:22 148:11,17,22 151:10,11 activation 152:18 active 127:13 130:12 131:13 135:15 137:20 actively45:14,22

46:1 79:2 actual 62:3 72:18 actuated 157:9 add22:16 33:2

54:19 62:2 81:20 81:21 adding 130:19 addition 124:18 162:6 additional 16:2

22:20,21 25:17 27:21 37:12 40:14 45:2,2 54:10 55:21 59:11 62:4 66:8,12,21,22 87:2 101:14 105:21 116:6 118:2 166:19 167:1 additionally 12:5 12:14 131:1 address 60:5 118:6 125:20 addressed 104:16 Adjustable 135:4 adjusted 126:16,18 127:11,17 137:10 145:20 adjusting73:3 154:22 adjustments 118:1 admit 149:13 adopt34:12 40:13 140:6 adopted 11:20 14:9 17:16 18:5,7 69:3 110:8 139:7 advantage51:6 advertised76:18 advocates 140:16 affect 16:16 17:4

35:9 91:4,8 94:15 95:8 99:19 153:10 affiliation 5:17 affirmative 20:19 afternoon 16:6

53:2,8 55:20 84:22 124:14 138:13 141:10,13 146:20 147:6,11 166:5 168:22 afternoon's 139:11 agenda 8:2,5 agree52:4 59:1 119:7 121:1 141:2 agreed43:1 agreeing20:19 agrees40:7 122:19 AHAM 17:21,22 18:12,18,22 19:1 19:5,18 ahead 10:20 75:10 162:17 164:13 AHRAM 17:16 air9:19 45:18 51:3

56:21,22 61:21 62:19 63:19,21 64:15 91:4,11 airport 144:2 algorithm 130:19 131:19 aligned 18:9 aligning27:1 aligns41:3 Alliance2:12 5:22 147:17 allotment51:7 allow50:20 51:4

60:16 62:6 71:21 105:16 118:22 146:10 148:20 150:18 allowable57:13,22

82:22 allowance51:7 146:8 allowed75:18,19 117:22 131:4 135:9 136:2 137:11,14 139:2 151:18 157:18 allowing 113:14 allows 25:8 alluding72:14 aloud46:19 altered 37:6 ambient21:5,9,14

21:15,17,19 23:2 24:15,22 25:5 56:22 61:21,22 92:3 162:22 ambiguity 38:18 ambiguous 110:10 amend 12:17,19 amended 12:6 14:22 28:10 53:4 77:6 113:7,11,14 113:18 115:18 124:11 138:10,14 138:18 140:9,12 amendment 17:2 17:12 20:22 67:3 amendments 3:16

3:19 8:11,15 14:19 15:4 38:6 43:20 66:12 America 1:20 2:17

6:10,12 50:14 121:19 amount66:1 82:22 97:5,9,15 98:1 106:17 134:18 141:16,17 145:4 149:14 152:22 153:6 154:2 amp 98:2 amplify 167:21 amps 97:12,12 AMS 53:17 54:4

59:14 70:16 71:17 72:4 117:12 155:22 analysis 5:11 9:4

84:20 146:21 147:11,12,14 analyzing36:16 and/or 127:10 128:11 anecdotal 98:17 annual 12:9 27:17 ANSI 14:3 ANSI/AHAM 14:9 ANSI/ASHRAE 14:4 answer58:19 108:8 111:15 140:19 141:19,20 146:18 146:18 147:2 164:1 165:19 166:1,11 answers25:14 anti-sweat 89:2

90:8,11 anticipate 99:16 anticipates 80:3 anticipating77:10

79:22 anybody52:15 168:7 anymore44:8 anyway22:10

42:10 anyways78:21 apart48:20,22 appears72:22 appendices 15:20 15:21202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. 

### Page 171 Appendix 3:16,19

8:11,15 14:14,15 14:16,21 15:4,21 16:2,14 17:7,11 18:13 19:16 20:4 20:7,8 21:1 94:18 94:20 95:4,6,7,8 101:18,21 102:14 103:19,21 104:22 105:18 106:1 109:1,2,11,13,13 109:16,21,21 110:6 111:12,13 111:21 113:6,17 114:18,19 115:3,6 115:11,12,15 116:1,5,12,17 117:7 119:16,21 120:13 122:11,18 122:18,20 124:8 124:10,15,18 127:7 128:17 135:3 138:9 139:2 139:4,8,9 140:10 140:11,12 152:20 Appliance2:1 applicable 11:19

69:17 70:22 76:3 78:5 103:4 142:5 application28:5

30:12 67:22 68:8 68:12,14 69:2,14 70:4 73:14,20 74:4,5 76:2 77:8 78:4,6 80:4 81:4 81:11 85:15 86:11 88:5 100:4 applied 101:5 119:10 126:6 apply71:2 applying 83:17 appreciably 61:22 appreciate 20:18

43:19 54:20 66:6 68:9 104:15 105:10 110:10 111:17 appreciated 37:22 120:18 approach73:4

98:22 appropriate 18:16

20:9 28:11 48:6 52:9 70:13 110:19 153:6 154:8 argue 140:2 Armstrong 1:15

3:11 4:19,20 6:19 6:19 7:17 10:19 25:1 41:21 42:4,8 43:22 44:12 51:13 52:15,22 57:1,5 58:15,20 60:15 61:6 138:22 141:7 141:18 143:7 147:2,9 160:3 163:11,14,17 164:1 165:18 arrange59:20 Arshak55:4 106:5 107:7 Arshak's 108:3 ASAP2:1 Ashley 1:15 3:11

4:18,19,21 6:19 43:22 51:13 55:19 138:22 140:22 141:9 ASHRAE 6:7 17:16,21 18:2,4,9 18:17,18 19:15 20:5 21:6 26:4,18 26:21 27:5 33:20 34:15,19 37:1 43:20 68:19,22 69:6 83:3 90:5,20 117:16 120:22 134:22 asking 52:2 53:21

60:16 asks 55:4 165:12 ASRAE 38:13 associated 33:5

66:11 77:3 90:11 92:2,16 93:19 94:2 110:18 124:22 131:17 assume 123:1 assuming 120:6 147:1 assumption42:12 attempt56:20 authority 11:4 Automated 1:17

6:14 41:10 automatic90:9 145:10 152:18 156:14 159:1 160:11 automatically 102:20 127:11,20 151:11,19 152:4 157:9 159:17 162:1 163:2 Automobiles 11:12 auxiliary 96:12

97:15 103:16 104:12 availability 92:19 125:11 available 17:21,22

22:12 31:21 32:4 54:21 76:19 77:1 81:14,15 86:17 89:21 90:10 98:5 110:13,16 112:20 114:12 115:9 117:19 118:13 123:15,16 125:4 125:19 126:3 144:19 155:14,16 163:19 164:3 Avenue 1:11 average 12:11

24:14 27:13 38:21 39:4 40:8,9,18,19 46:8,9 47:4,8 48:14,15,17 67:8 68:13,16 69:12 72:9 73:9 74:3 78:13 151:1 153:4 averaged 39:2 averages49:7 averaging 39:7 aware57:20 76:14

76:21 92:13 115:1 125:16 Awareness2:1 axis 31:10 B B 3:19 8:15 11:10 13:14 14:15,21 16:2,19 17:11 23:22 24:8,16,20 30:3 31:5,16 45:8 45:19 47:19 48:1 51:8,18 52:1,19 53:3,7 94:20 95:6 95:7,8 102:14 103:19 105:18 106:1 109:1,2,11 109:16,22 111:13 113:6,17 114:19 115:6,11,15 116:5 116:12,17 117:7 120:13 122:11,18 122:20 124:8,10 124:15 127:7 138:9 139:2,5 140:10,12 152:20 back26:10 48:13

63:17 64:12 93:7 106:18 107:2 130:5 131:8,18,22 132:4,22 137:5 141:22 145:14 158:10 160:9 168:15,22 background 53:22 103:8 backwards 107:17 152:14 badge 106:8 168:11 balance75:2 balances40:6 base 64:7 156:1 157:18 based24:18,20 33:14 35:18 45:11 46:17 70:6 76:16 83:1 86:15 93:8 103:1 114:5 127:20 134:1 143:8 144:18 149:12,21 151:15 153:7 157:12,13 163:8,9 basic 32:21 33:8

68:16 118:16,21 118:22 119:11 basically 26:18

38:15 60:16 basis 11:18 53:13

53:15 86:1 146:22 beaker 35:15 becoming 34:11 behavior 140:4 believe23:9 41:19

42:1 63:14 88:3 140:16 165:16 166:13,21,22 believes 16:15 17:3

20:8 28:9 92:20 93:17 125:9 benefit75:21 134:12 Berkeley 2:9,18

7:12,19 best29:17 59:18

60:1 62:7,16 65:6 68:7 70:5 108:10 better52:6 57:15

79:14 134:16 143:1 144:15,15 159:10 160:7 161:6 167:22 beverage 1:3 4:11

9:5 11:14 13:1,4,9 13:12,14,18,20 14:11 16:18 17:5 18:21 19:12 21:2 22:2,18 28:6,8,14 28:18 29:5,22 30:1,4,7,8,14 31:20 32:10,15,19202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. 

### Page 172 33:18 34:16 35:2 36:3,8 38:12 40:21 46:9,21 48:11 55:10 56:10 56:13 67:11,13,16 87:19 91:15 93:20 94:6,16,17 110:21 111:1 112:10 117:4 123:19 127:8 128:10 129:2 130:11 135:7,9 137:2,19 139:13 151:1 beverages 13:6,7 14:6 32:8,16 36:9 145:4 big 83:13 168:5,12 bit5:3 33:16 94:10

97:20 106:3 110:9 117:16 128:3 141:21 142:1 166:5 blue 130:9 bottled 13:1,3,5,6 13:11 14:6 67:15 bottles 34:11,14,15

34:21 bottom 31:4,18

45:20 48:8 49:6 64:7,10 130:9 box 83:13 153:11 boxes 15:12 16:10 16:13 166:20 break 8:12,15 101:16 102:6 105:20 106:4,18 168:1 breaker98:1 breaking47:10 brief8:6 107:2 bring 105:7 116:20 151:22 brings 154:9 Brookman 1:11,14

3:11 4:3,8,15 5:14 7:13,21 15:9 20:14 22:6 23:12 25:16 26:12 27:19 30:15 36:12 37:15 41:8 42:2 45:1 50:12,15,18 53:9 54:9,17 55:3,8,12 55:15,18 56:2 58:2 59:10 60:8 62:8 63:2,12 64:19 65:10,12 66:18 70:15 71:13 71:22 72:11 75:8 75:14 82:1,13 84:6 85:19 87:1,4 88:7 95:20 96:1 99:2,5 101:14,19 102:9 106:2,14 107:1,11,19 108:5 116:4,9 117:9 122:15 124:5 129:19 136:7,10 145:5 147:15 154:14 155:21 158:17,22 160:16 161:15 162:14 164:5 165:11 166:18 167:13 budget 83:8 building4:13 106:9 168:3 built 139:4 bullet65:7,9 bullets 65:18 bunch 168:9 bundle 61:19 burden22:20,21

23:3 66:11 burdensome 12:12

39:20 43:9 66:9 122:10 131:1 burning 86:20 105:20 Business 8:17 Butler 1:16 6:16,16 button 108:13 148:15 buttons 135:18 buy 156:3 BVM 13:8 14:1,14 28:21 30:21 46:4 81:16 88:21 93:8 93:10 98:11,15 101:1 104:19 112:12 113:8 123:18 125:5 126:11 142:8,8 143:18,19,22 150:18 152:3 154:5 BVMs 20:12 74:11

92:14 108:16 143:20 144:7 C C 18:13 19:16 20:4

20:7,8 77:16 87:14 cable43:17 cables43:16 cafeteria 168:5,12 calculate 14:10 calculations 93:7 153:8 163:10 California2:2 6:6

6:7 26:3 42:19 58:9 160:19 call 116:10 125:21 140:1 called 93:3 calling92:8 campus 168:4 Canada2:13 6:4

23:15 29:21 116:8 canned 13:1,3,5,6 13:11 14:6 67:15 cans 34:2,5,17,18

34:21 35:9 capable 32:9,17

34:1,10,13,17,20 68:2,16 75:16 126:16,18 127:17 capacity 28:13 29:3 capture 104:18 126:8 131:2,17 134:14 137:18 captures 132:11 capturing 131:6 card 89:18 care 152:1 160:21 carried 147:5 cartons 35:1 case 1:16 6:15,15 17:13 23:21 24:3 24:7,9,12 28:2 31:11 38:2,9 65:22 67:3 69:5 69:13 73:8 77:15 108:15 113:19 cases 61:7,14 93:12

96:17 122:6 category75:22 104:17 CATHARINE2:8 causes 54:11 cell 9:22 91:13 center 36:21 37:7 certain9:20 61:6

62:17 79:9 97:5 166:10 certainly 23:11

73:5 79:1 85:13 85:17 98:22 100:9 117:21 149:20 certification 65:21

74:1,10 76:7 81:13,15,16,18 certified 51:22

69:16 77:8 81:11 125:6 156:19 certify 17:9 33:7

81:13 152:7 certifying 11:18

73:14 chair 6:7 83:3 chairing26:3 challenge 58:16 chamber22:22 156:17 change 19:11 38:7 115:20 157:19,20 158:13 160:1 164:9 166:9 changed 164:10 changes 18:3 19:10 84:4 115:19 120:12 153:11 changing 115:21 121:9 135:7 characteristics

36:7 characterized

94:11 charging91:14 check42:15 150:15 chose 123:3 Chris7:3 CHRISTOPHER

1:20 circuit97:10 98:1,3

98:3 cite 60:10 claim 148:14 clarification 28:2

30:18 36:15 37:13 38:1,10 45:4 56:5 145:9 clarifications 14:19 15:3 16:15,16,21 17:1,4 28:15 36:6 36:16,17 37:16 38:3 69:8 119:22 124:16 139:7 clarify 32:2 33:11

34:8 40:13 57:2 76:2 158:19 clarifying 37:10

89:11 class 13:11,14,15 16:18,19 23:18,22 24:5,8,16,20 30:3 30:3,5,6 31:5,5,7 31:16 32:7 45:7,8 45:12,19 46:12 47:19,19 48:1,1,6 51:8,9,18,18,21 51:22 52:10 73:10 77:16,18 78:19 84:20 87:14 119:1 classes 13:9,10 53:8

55:16202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. 

### Page 173 classification 18:6

49:20 77:16 87:8 87:14 classifications 50:4

55:1 73:11 79:8 classified 55:5 classify 52:19 clean 130:21 clear 15:10 38:2

47:21 48:5 90:4 111:16,20 124:9 130:3 160:3 clearly 63:8 77:17 clock 108:18 clocks 109:7 close27:8 101:18 101:21 106:7 144:22 closed 145:2 151:15 closing 8:18 167:6 Code97:6 coffee 106:8,10 108:17 coil 99:22 coin 123:20 Coke 35:22 cold71:21 91:20 117:4 colleagues 121:7 collect75:6 76:15 collected 39:8 collectively 59:2 COLLER7:11 Collin2:14 6:21 Collins 1:17 6:13

6:13 41:9,9,16 54:3,3,13 59:14 59:14 61:3,16 70:16,16 71:17,17 117:12,12 120:20 121:2 155:22,22 156:12 158:6 159:8 combination 13:13 13:16,17 16:19 23:17,19 24:6 28:6,7,14,18 29:5 29:9,22 30:7,13 32:7 89:21 118:9 119:8,12 combinations 122:8 combines 19:1 come 51:16,17

87:12 88:21 107:17 112:17 124:12 130:5 141:11 149:15 comes48:3 120:5 142:18 155:5 comfortable 66:16 143:10 150:3 coming53:13 142:22 166:2,6 commences 9:10 comment 15:12 19:22 20:1 22:4 26:14 30:11 37:14 37:20 41:1 49:10 50:8 51:14 62:10 63:4 64:22 69:20 75:9,12,16 76:21 78:1 79:21 85:13 87:2,5 88:1 98:8 99:1 104:4,15 105:1,10 107:8 117:6 118:5,11 122:14 127:2 136:8 141:15 145:6 148:7 149:18 152:11,15 152:22 153:17 154:4,6,15 156:1 160:17 166:20 commented 29:22

46:11 commenters40:7 comments 9:12 10:11 15:10 16:9 20:12,14,18,19 25:17 27:21 30:16 36:5,12,13 37:21 39:15 43:19 44:19 45:2,2 46:17 50:12 53:16 58:3 59:11 66:6,19,20 66:21,22 68:10 86:20 95:21 100:10 101:9,15 102:3,4,7 104:3 104:11 105:4,20 105:21 111:18 116:6 117:8,10 120:14 129:20,20 153:20,20 160:20 161:7 166:19 167:2,8,17 commercial 13:4

40:10,16 69:4 164:3 commercially 163:19 committee 6:8 26:4 117:16 common 34:12

52:21 71:8 72:4 74:11 99:17 comparable44:13 compare 156:2 compared 25:10

48:16 comparison20:6

25:9 79:22 80:2,9 compartment

28:18,19,21 29:1 29:6,7,8,14,16 complete 9:17

49:22 completely 103:7 109:12,14,22 complex 84:16

85:10 compliance 14:22 17:9 21:20 32:22 76:9 113:7,12 139:3,8 compliant73:1 complicated 19:5 167:16 complies 11:19 12:3 comply 68:17 121:17 components 83:10 compressors 154:5 comprises 56:13 compromise 59:4

61:12 154:9 concern50:19 164:7 concerned 28:20

74:20 148:18 concerns 8:7 27:12

54:2 165:8 167:21 concise9:19 conclusion 151:21 152:3 concur 121:19 concurrently 9:8 condensate90:14

90:18 condenser91:2

99:9 100:5,8,20 100:21 123:7 condensing99:22 condition21:14,16

21:18,19,22 22:22 24:22 25:6 26:7 27:12,15 38:20 46:20 143:13 conditions 21:5,9

23:2 123:9 conduct 12:13

25:18 49:22 133:11 conducted 134:20 conducting 89:7 configuration 30:9

89:13 configurations

31:22 32:5 33:8 93:15 118:12,15 configure28:7,15

32:15 99:15 110:6 165:2 configured 30:2,5

31:22 32:5,11 34:14 35:3 89:6 90:1 confirm 65:17 149:9 156:8 confirmed 160:11 conflict54:1 confusion47:20 116:21 connected4:5 102:17 consensus 26:9 conservation9:4 11:11,14,20 15:2 16:1,4 17:10 18:8 21:11,21 33:1 70:22 77:4 93:1,5 94:21 113:8 120:2 120:11 124:3,12 138:10 139:13 146:20 167:11 conservative 118:19 148:5 149:19 consider44:17,18

65:19 66:14 74:13 85:6 86:21 111:19 115:16,16 121:22 122:9 132:3 consideration

41:11 118:1 considerations

9:15 70:17 considered 13:15

29:1,14 46:5 73:3 73:6 77:7 115:19 116:3 119:17 120:10 130:6,10 131:10 150:10 considering21:1

22:1 23:16 43:20 45:4 56:17 67:3 77:3,6 85:2 89:11 120:9 149:7 considers 86:9 consistency47:18

89:14 91:10 consistent 18:5,19202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. 

### Page 174 20:10 25:10 33:13 40:10,15 69:2 70:7 93:16 95:3 100:16 104:7 118:18,21 120:5 120:17 121:15 130:18 133:1,11 133:20 144:8 consistently 68:2

99:14 100:7 119:10 126:6 154:13 consoles 92:15 construction 34:9 Consulting 1:19,20

2:7,14 6:22 7:2,4 7:6 consume 127:12,13 consumer 11:11

31:11 79:12 80:7 80:8,19,21 102:16 161:11 consumer/custo... 122:5 consumers 80:1,11 165:2 consuming 83:10

89:20 90:7 95:15 114:20 135:6 consumption 16:17

27:17 29:12 33:4 33:18 38:7 62:22 78:2,3 82:8 89:9 94:4 95:9 98:10 99:18,20 100:2 103:11,15,22 104:20 110:18,21 111:8 112:10 114:13 115:20 118:17 121:21 124:22 125:8 131:7,17,20 132:1 134:7,8 137:19 149:15 152:2 consumptive 118:19 119:3 contain 14:19 15:3 36:21 contained 18:17

20:4,8 21:6 56:7 129:4,11 contains 16:2 124:15 content 102:11 CONTENTS 3:6 continue54:21

76:15 111:18 150:19 continuing53:6 control 91:22 108:13 125:1 126:13 140:4 157:11,12,13,19 161:20 controlled 128:20 128:21 130:16,17 145:19 controls 126:15 135:4 conversation 10:12 11:6 53:1 conversations 10:2 converted 23:18

24:6 cook98:3 cool47:13 64:9 cooled 13:12 29:6

30:6 31:8 45:5,9,9 45:13,16,22 46:1 46:5,19,20 47:11 47:12 49:1,9,11 50:8 51:1,2,3 129:7,8 cooling 89:2 cools 13:5 46:22 copies 8:1 copy42:6 corner 106:10 corners48:13 correct51:10 96:9 141:6,7 145:15 156:11 correspond 16:12 cost 12:9 Council2:6 6:2 couple 60:21 63:3

95:21 142:16 course 15:13 150:22 COURT4:7 cover 35:4 63:17,18 168:21 covered 10:16 11:16 12:10,16 16:17 17:5 33:18 38:8 67:12 92:22 93:2,5 95:9 168:20 covers 35:19 89:2

91:5 99:10 Crane 1:18,21 65:4

75:12 79:4 crank71:14 Crankcase91:19 CRE 69:19 create27:2 60:4

87:14 creating24:11 138:20 credit 89:18 133:22 134:3,11,18 142:17,18 146:16 148:14,19,20 149:3,9,12 150:12 152:22 153:1 157:1,9 158:13,20 159:4 160:2 credited 164:16 credits 156:10 159:22 criteria43:21

47:22 48:5 54:22 123:22 139:15 criterion45:7

80:19 crux 122:17 curious 26:17 27:5 143:5 163:3 current 12:20 13:21 15:1 28:9 30:21 40:1 42:12 42:19 57:2,12 58:1,10 90:5 122:12 125:7 126:11 130:13 137:14 139:3,4,5 140:5,7 146:9 currently 17:19

20:10 23:9 33:21 35:20 36:2 37:1 38:10 39:16 45:10 51:11 57:5,20,21 67:6,12,18 68:20 74:14 119:13 120:15 126:19 135:8 145:17 166:8 customer23:7

31:10 32:14 92:9 93:18,22 94:12 104:13 112:5 115:7 122:2 123:21 156:1 customers45:22

81:17 82:4 125:12 155:8 cut57:19 cutout64:8 cycle 12:11 24:14 CYR2:8D D.C 1:11 4:14 daily 110:20 134:6 149:15 dairy 36:1 data5:10 39:8

49:18 54:7,20 55:2 75:6 76:15 78:7,15 79:2,13 81:14 84:2 85:14 133:12 144:18 146:8 156:2 database 81:15 Dave 1:16 6:15 David 1:19 7:1 day9:1 144:2 days 14:17 17:7

74:8 111:22 119:20 de94:14,21 95:18

97:8 104:21 109:16 110:3 114:1,10,11 de-energization 115:8 de-energize91:17 110:3 112:4,7 113:20 114:2 de-energized94:10

94:19 96:19 103:7 103:20 109:12,14 109:20,21 112:6 115:11 130:16 de-energizing 103:18 112:20 115:9 DEC 146:8,8 December 13:22 decide54:15 65:5 decided26:6 deck 167:5 decrease 146:15 147:8 default 137:12 Defense2:5 6:2 define 127:7 128:7 129:15 defined 13:10

45:10 48:18 131:14 152:20 defines 13:9 37:4 definitely 147:18 163:18 definition 12:22 13:2 40:14,15 41:2,3 43:5 45:5 46:5,18 49:11 50:8 51:1 67:4,15 68:12 69:3,21 95:1,6,7 102:12 102:22 103:1,13 107:4 108:9,11,21 109:4 114:4,7,8 123:19 127:6 129:4,12 148:9202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. 

### Page 175 definitions45:12 126:22 128:5 129:21 152:13 definitive 52:3 degrades 62:3 degree21:12,15,19

21:21 22:3 23:2 23:16 24:21 25:5 39:21 51:5 52:20 67:7 degrees 21:3 24:15

25:19 39:1 40:22 46:8 47:7 48:20 48:22 49:8 53:12 53:17 70:19 71:19 77:19 79:12,15,18 131:8 151:2,3 153:5,13,18 154:20,20,21 162:22 163:2 delta72:15 83:1,6 density 35:8,13,14

35:17,19 36:4 Department 1:1,15 1:16,16,21 4:21 9:3 10:4 147:19 166:12 167:18 Department's

40:12 depending 32:13

83:12 depends 147:10 157:6 described 136:21 describes 110:15 design 62:7 designation 55:16 designed 12:7 24:2

40:5 56:16 72:9 84:11,12 97:5 designs40:2 70:7 destroy 61:17 destructive 61:8 detail 16:21 129:13 132:5 141:10 detailed 136:21 167:16 details 129:13 167:9 determination 12:18 29:2 47:22 80:8 determine 12:2

25:12 33:17 38:12 47:19 48:6 62:6 68:8 122:6 129:9 150:6 determined 68:21

70:5 88:19 determines 97:7 determining 60:12 detriment 117:22 develop 150:5 developed 92:14 102:22 108:12 131:20 134:3 144:21 161:21 163:8,9 development5:1 devices 89:17 97:15 110:19 117:14 118:3,7 121:4,21 123:1 diagrams48:4 differ 32:19 difference 32:6

49:7 114:18 differences 20:6

33:4,5 different32:12

33:7,8 52:20 57:6 57:22 60:3,6 73:10 77:6 84:14 84:22 87:8 89:10 93:15 95:5 96:14 101:7 103:18 111:7 114:20 117:18 118:16 119:11 126:2,9,9 128:3 130:7 132:13,16 133:4 137:22 142:3,4 143:13 144:14 153:9 154:7 157:8 164:16 166:17 differential 51:5 differentiated 118:15 differentiation

52:10 differently 84:11 111:4 127:16 128:8 129:16,17 difficult 60:4 91:17 105:13 112:16 123:18 132:20 difficulty 93:14 132:9 digit 86:7 digital 92:10 93:18

94:13 95:11 102:16 104:14 105:8 112:6 dimmer 112:22 113:2 dimming 128:14 direct35:4 directed 11:13 47:2 directing45:17 direction 168:10 directly 96:13,18

97:1 disabled 108:20 137:17 disconnect 110:1 discretion 122:4 discuss 53:5 88:15 127:5 132:6 141:9 141:13 discussed 39:13

51:20 117:15 124:17 132:5 153:2 154:6 discussing 124:13 138:8 154:1 discussion 8:16,17

45:11 46:13 discussions 88:18 dispense75:18 dispenses 13:6 dispensing 34:2 56:12,20 display92:9 93:18

94:12 95:10 102:16,18 104:13 112:5 115:7 displays 90:19,21 109:8 128:15 disruptive 59:21 distinction 53:6 distinctions 51:18 distinctively 52:19 distinguish77:20

79:13 distinguishing45:7 divide23:19 document39:14

46:4 documentation

65:20 66:8,17 DOE 6:15,16,18,20 11:13,17,18 12:1 12:15,20 13:21 14:13,20 15:20 16:15 17:3,13 18:1,7,10,14,15 19:13,22 20:7,18 20:22 21:10,11 22:1,3,13 23:8,11 23:20 24:11,16 26:19,22 27:3 28:2,4,5,9 30:11 30:12,13,18,19 32:1,2 33:10,14 34:8,12,19 35:7 35:10,12,17 36:5 36:11,18 37:11 38:5 39:13 40:7 40:13 41:1,11 43:18 44:1,4,17 45:4 46:4,18 47:18 48:9 49:10 49:14,17,19,20,22 50:3,7 51:14 54:20,21 56:5,10 56:16 57:2,14 59:6,16 60:12,16 60:20,22 61:1,2,7 61:10,15 65:17 66:2 67:3,17,19 68:5,9,11 69:10 69:20 70:8,10 71:6,10,13 73:6 74:1,14 76:5,13 76:20 77:9 78:6 78:20,22 79:12,22 80:3 81:9,10 82:10 83:18 85:2 85:13 86:9 88:18 89:7,11 90:16 92:8,13,19,22 93:5,6,16 94:8 95:1,5 99:16 100:6,12 102:13 103:2 104:14,22 105:9 107:14 111:17 113:13 114:16 116:2 118:13 119:4,16 119:18,22 120:6 121:15 124:1 125:2,9,16 126:4 126:11,20 127:6 127:15 128:7 129:8,18 130:6,8 130:10,13 131:10 132:4 133:3,12,19 137:8,14 139:1,10 139:11 140:8 144:16 145:17 149:6,8,18 150:2 150:3 152:8,15,22 154:10 156:9 157:2 161:20 163:6 DOE's 18:5,20

20:19 21:8,20 24:18 32:22 33:15 58:16 73:18 80:15 88:16 110:17 114:5 118:5,6,21 130:9 134:2 149:12,21 doing22:13 51:20

59:19 75:21 83:6202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. 

### Page 176 84:20 121:16 138:1 143:17 door56:12,12,19

56:20 57:7 61:20 Doug 1:11,14 3:11

4:15 5:12 15:16 79:3 105:19 141:1 152:13 167:10 DOUGLAS 1:18 DR7:11 dramatically 99:18 Drenten 1:18 79:3

79:4,7 80:6 136:20 140:22 141:1,8 143:4 drill 61:9 drilling 57:9 drop 99:21 due40:1 80:2 93:13 101:15 118:2 duration 142:11 145:22 146:11 dynamic 161:22 162:5 E earlier 16:20 29:22

32:6 45:6 early 113:14 167:14 ears 143:2 easier 133:19 easily 35:15 43:2 easy 134:13 164:9 Edison2:2 6:6 26:3

42:19 58:9 160:19 Edwards 1:19 7:1,1 effective 14:16,21 17:7 74:8 111:22 119:20 effectively 60:5 efficiency 2:11 5:22 11:8,22 12:8 147:17 efficient25:13 62:1 either 12:17 21:8

46:15 59:1 73:8 142:9 164:14 Elaina2:7 3:14 7:5 11:2 15:8,17,17 16:19 17:7 45:6 81:19 82:2 86:3 96:9 elect33:6 elected78:20 electing 19:13

35:13 electric 90:8 91:20 electrical 97:4,6 electricity 156:5 eliminate 25:18 eliminates 26:18 eliminating 21:2 165:14 Elizabeth2:5 6:1 empirical 54:7 employ 142:3 144:16 employed 126:19 160:10 employs 128:1 en 18:14 encompass 103:14 encountered 56:10 encourage5:5

86:21 88:1,13 127:3 147:21 159:5 161:5 ended53:12 ends 106:11 energies 82:5 energized29:17

90:22 91:16 94:22 95:19 105:12 108:19 109:7,17 114:2,10,11,12,14 135:2 energizing94:15

97:9,9 104:22 110:4 energy 1:1,15,16 1:16,21 2:11 4:22 5:22 9:3 10:4 11:5,8,11,14,19 12:8,9 15:1 16:1,4 16:17 17:5,9 18:7 21:11,20 27:13,17 28:13 29:11,18 32:22 33:4,18 38:7 51:7 62:1,22 71:4 72:17,19,21 72:22 75:3 76:8 77:3 78:2,3,15 79:19 81:5 82:4,8 82:12,20 83:7,10 84:13 86:10,13,16 89:8,20 90:6 91:8 93:1,5,10,17 94:4 94:21 95:8,14 98:10 99:17,20 100:1 103:11,15 103:21 104:20 110:18,21 111:8 112:10 113:8 114:13,20 115:20 118:17 119:3,5 120:2,11 121:21 124:3,11,21 125:1 125:4,6,7,13 126:14 127:13 130:17 131:2,7,17 131:20 132:1 134:6,7 135:4,6 137:9,16,19 138:10 139:12 142:14 145:18 146:13,20 147:17 147:19 148:6,20 149:15 152:1 155:16 167:11 energy-consuming

29:15 90:13 94:19 96:14 104:6 105:15 109:15,18 110:5,9,14 112:13 114:6 118:9 energy-using 127:10 128:11 enforcement47:16

50:5 66:2 68:5 152:9 engage 127:19 engagement 135:20 ensure 66:4 89:14

91:9 162:11 entire29:4 47:1,14 110:4 envelope59:4 93:7 environment25:7 127:14 135:16 EPA 165:13 EPCA 11:20 12:4,5 12:14,22 85:2 EPCA's24:10 equal49:8 equipment 11:9,16 11:19,22 12:2,10 13:9 15:18 18:6 23:1 24:14,17,19 25:7,9,11,12 29:18 30:6,22 32:3,7 34:5 38:8 40:1,4,11,17 45:8 45:8,12,13,16,17 46:12 47:13,19 48:6,13 49:9,20 50:4 55:1 56:15 59:22 61:12 62:5 64:3 67:5,10,20 67:21 68:1 69:4 69:16,18 70:1,6 70:21 71:2,4,5,8 72:8 73:10,11,13 74:12,18 76:6,9 76:11,18 77:9,10 77:13,18 78:5,8 78:11,16,19 80:3 80:20 81:7,10 82:12 83:12,12,15 83:17 84:19 85:1 85:5,9,16,22 86:12,18 88:4 89:4,14 90:1 91:8 91:13 92:17,20,21 92:22 93:9,14 94:9 95:9 96:11 97:7 100:6,14 101:11 103:3,17 103:18,20,22 104:16,18,22 105:2,11,13 109:11,14 110:13 111:6 113:5,20 114:13,21 115:4 115:15,17 117:18 117:19 119:1,6,10 119:12 120:1,15 121:4 122:3 123:12 125:2,3,18 126:3,6,12 128:17 133:5,6 135:2 144:9 146:4,4 150:19 151:22 153:22 156:4,17 156:20 157:2,17 157:20 158:14 equipped70:11

88:21 126:6 equivalent93:10 especially 53:7

70:8 105:6 essentially 18:9

74:17 97:17 143:16 145:22 150:17 154:21 158:19 establish 11:13

20:11 50:4 55:1 established 13:22

35:14 79:9 establishes 85:2 establishing73:7

78:12,18 84:19 87:18 143:17 estimate 155:19 estimated 12:9 125:13 149:14 estimates 155:13 155:16 etween 38:22 evaluation28:12 eventually 122:19 everybody4:20 122:19 134:17 exactly75:7 87:21 107:15,17 108:8202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. 

### Page 177 108:22 121:13 166:1 example76:5 108:16 133:3 136:2 137:12 145:11 examples 113:3 exceed 39:12 40:6 excess 133:7 exchange56:21

64:15 excluded 19:7 exclusion21:7 exclusions 19:11 exclusively 137:4 existence 149:6 150:13,16 162:5 existing 16:1 17:9 18:20 21:20 30:12 38:4 89:5 93:5 104:1 112:3 116:3 119:18 137:8 138:11 exists 92:6 103:16 105:11 159:16 expect71:3 79:12

82:5 expected 91:7 experience 33:15 122:22 explain5:8 explicit28:3,4

30:19 38:5 89:4 111:19 114:9 129:8 explicitly 30:1 128:8 exposed25:8 61:20 expressed40:22 extent30:3 32:10

73:13,16 93:2 95:4 98:19 103:15 105:10 108:14 112:14 128:19 139:6 exterior56:22

64:16 external 92:9 93:17 94:1 96:5 102:15 104:13 112:4,5 115:7 116:11 117:1 148:22 F Facilitator 1:12 4:8

7:13,21 15:9 20:14 22:6 23:12 25:16 26:12 27:19 30:15 36:12 37:15 41:8 42:2 45:1 50:12,15,18 53:9 54:9,17 55:3,8,12 55:15,18 56:2 58:2 59:10 60:8 62:8 63:2,12 64:19 65:10,12 66:18 70:15 71:13 71:22 72:11 75:8 75:14 82:1,13 84:6 85:19 87:1,4 88:7 95:20 96:1 99:2,5 101:14,19 102:9 106:2,14 107:1,11,19 108:5 116:4,9 117:9 122:15 124:5 129:19 136:7,10 145:5 147:15 154:14 155:21 158:17,22 160:16 161:15 162:14 164:5 165:11 166:18 167:13 facility 60:9 151:15 fact50:10 74:14

97:13 151:22 factor 156:5 factors 146:13 Fahrenheit21:3,13

21:15,22 22:3 25:19 39:1,21 40:22 47:7 53:18 67:7 151:3,4 fair 61:16 85:9 106:17 fairly 5:19 16:8 78:18,19 familiar71:7 far27:16 72:15 123:11 153:14 fashion 118:18 130:18 fast 163:5 faults 52:4 feature 105:17 145:10 features 29:15 94:1 114:10 Federal 12:18 14:18 17:8 74:9 112:2 feedback5:7,11

57:14 101:9 107:20 108:2 139:18 144:17 feeding43:16 57:7

57:8 feel 15:14 16:8

85:12 143:9 147:20 feeling44:2 field 29:19 38:18

39:17 51:21 56:16 62:4 72:6 82:11 82:11 98:12 100:15 111:4 119:14 123:11 140:5 142:13,21 146:2,3 162:13 165:7 figure47:22 74:11 figures 31:3 122:12 fill 33:17 35:8 filled 34:7 filter99:9,20 100:5 100:20,21 101:2,3 101:5 filters 91:2 100:9 123:8 final 13:8,22 14:2 14:18 17:15 18:6 18:8,15 21:12 66:19 111:20 112:2 117:9 119:21 166:22 167:2 find 10:11 finding 37:14 finds 37:12 fine 81:4 162:7 finish44:7,21 107:2 finished44:2,4 first 8:22 17:12 19:21 34:10 47:11 63:5 65:18 76:1 96:2 106:6 118:10 119:4 121:3 127:6 149:11 fit36:3 71:20 fitted 117:20 five 10:15 fixed 83:10,16 flexibility 34:18 115:16 float 131:5 157:15 floor 143:20 flow 62:19 91:4 fluids 35:20 focus 9:21 folks 132:7 168:9 follow 85:20 98:8 follow-on53:19 follow-up 65:14

72:2 100:22 following 8:4,9,10

8:14 46:18 88:17 156:9 forecloses 58:4 formula75:20

87:13 formulas 77:18

79:16 Forrestal4:13 106:9 168:3 forth 11:7 141:22 Forty 153:13 forward5:10 20:21 found 18:15 61:7 125:3 four48:13 154:19 fraction47:2,14 frame 153:13 Framework 39:14

46:4 frankly 26:11 free 15:14 16:8 freezers 19:4 frequent42:17 frequently41:15

41:16 front31:8,12,12

57:8 62:14 91:6 144:3 full49:21 97:9 130:12 fully 13:12 29:10

29:17 30:5 31:8 45:5,9,9,13,16 46:5,19,20 47:11 47:12 49:1,9,11 50:8 51:1 105:12 129:7,8 function73:8 93:20

95:16 105:9,17 108:20 112:8 162:6 functional 89:20 118:8 functionality 102:19 110:13 functions 28:22

94:2 108:18 109:6 110:16 112:12 113:22 fundamental 94:6 further 12:22 13:8

33:10 111:17 furthest47:5 48:11

48:15 49:3,5,16 future94:21 120:17 140:8 G gaming92:15 gas 145:2 gasket56:19 64:12202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. 

### Page 178 gather22:11 gauge 82:5 general 9:11,12

15:20 17:1 69:1 85:21 88:15 91:12 94:9 95:3 96:20 98:13 114:5 124:15 137:3,7 153:19,20 generally 10:22 gentleman29:21 getting48:9 102:3

131:18 132:14 150:12 153:16 GH 1:10 giant63:21 give5:7 133:21

142:17 given 118:13 134:3 gives 125:12

134:17 giving 159:4 glass 31:8 62:14 glass-front43:7

50:22 Glover 1:19 2:8 glycol/water 35:21 go 16:21 31:18 49:4

57:16 60:12 72:15 75:10 79:18 81:1 81:17 82:6 84:13 84:18 101:3 107:17 113:15 115:12 120:13 122:19 127:18 133:12 138:18 140:18 148:16 152:14 156:16 158:9,14 160:1 161:12 162:17 167:3 168:12 goes 21:17 36:15

98:9 122:3,18 142:9 157:5 164:13 165:5 going5:4 9:3 10:20

11:2 15:11,19 16:7 21:14 22:10 27:3 43:15 45:21 58:21 60:4 61:22 63:13,16 74:18 75:16 79:19 82:7 84:21 86:19 88:11 88:14,15 89:16 93:8 100:19 108:6 113:15 116:5 126:21 129:15 130:4 132:7 138:13 141:9,12 141:14,19 144:22 145:3 146:19 147:4 151:16 162:12 165:20 166:3,4 168:8,13 168:21 169:2 good4:4,8 15:17

27:15 54:11,15 63:13 75:20 83:4 88:6 117:6 154:9 gotten57:14

139:18 146:17 great30:17 51:14

53:1 79:6 136:9 149:1 GREEN 1:19 Gregory 2:9 7:18 ground 168:20 group 1:19 2:8 26:6 grouped 119:2 grouping 118:22 groups 17:19 guess42:11 50:21

52:2,17 59:3 61:16 86:3,4 92:3 120:20 121:7 162:15,15 guessed 54:8 guys44:15 105:4

160:6 166:3 H half8:22 22:17

43:10 hall 106:12 hallway 168:6 hand 10:8 121:3 handle97:10 handling 121:21 122:3 Hang 169:2 happen9:7 114:1 156:19 157:16 happened 88:12 hard 10:4 142:2,5 hardware 165:5 harsh 123:9 head42:14 54:6 heads 37:17 hear 10:10 25:20

42:3 63:9 65:1 99:6 107:9 162:18 163:22 hearing 167:4 heat46:2 heater90:11 heaters 89:1,2 90:9

90:14 91:19,20 Hello 63:10 help43:14 111:10 120:19 helpful 26:13 58:3

58:6 59:12 66:21 66:22 167:17,18 HFC 165:14 Hi4:20 107:9 162:20 Hieb 1:20 6:9,9

50:13,13,17,17,19 52:7,17 55:10,14 55:17 72:7,7 121:18,18 145:7,7 146:7 147:7 161:18 high24:3 88:14 higher51:4,7 81:2

81:7,8 155:9 highest 135:5 hint 81:5 history 3:13 8:10 11:4,4 hit 166:4,21 hog72:22 hold 32:8 36:9 91:10 holding 34:20 hole57:9 62:19 holes 61:9 honest 141:18,20 163:7 hoops 85:4 hope7:22 9:9 25:20

65:1 71:15 hopefully 63:8

84:21 91:22 92:4 horizontal 32:13

52:11 horizontally46:16 horse 121:10 host9:3 hotel 143:21 hour 131:14 151:4 151:5 163:18 164:4 168:2 hours 131:12,13,21 131:22 133:7 134:22 135:21,22 136:6 137:20 141:11,15,16 143:6,6,6,16,16 143:20,21 144:14 144:15,21 145:12 145:13 146:5,6 152:17 154:1,18 155:1 157:5 158:9 house97:4 HRF-1 14:9 17:16 19:18 20:5 HRF-1-2004 18:12 HRF-1-2008 20:7 huge 117:15 humidistat90:10 humidity 21:4,13

21:16 hurt58:14 I i.e 165:14 ID 168:14 idea48:3 81:5 103:5 141:3 ideas 54:1 identify 59:7 III 11:10 illuminated 90:19

90:21 112:22 128:14 illumination 102:18 imagine 143:22 immediate 5:16 immediately 8:4,10 15:22 impact 15:5 165:13 165:17 166:2,6 impacts 8:17 147:3 implement 133:4 134:13 144:11 154:12 implementation 105:3 implemented 51:21 132:19 140:5 156:13 164:12 165:7 important35:3

64:13 85:17 142:15 impose 156:14 impractical 39:19 improve 11:7 in-depth 55:20 inactivity 145:12 incentive 138:17 142:19 incentives 23:5 incentivize 140:3 149:22 include 37:6 81:1 121:20 128:13 148:10 included 10:12 17:11 19:7 103:2 103:10 107:4 109:1,2 115:2 121:6 124:17 138:8 161:2 includes 16:15202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. 

### Page 179 35:20 including 19:15 123:5,6 147:19 inclusion 102:13 140:17 inclusions 19:11 inconsistency75:4 inconsistent 120:10 incorporate 18:3 100:5 incorporated 14:2 15:4 18:11 33:21 37:2 incorporation 19:18 incorrectly 162:16 increase 61:21

99:22 100:1 131:4 146:14 147:8,13 147:14 151:2 154:19 155:11 increased 146:9 increases 99:21 increasing92:18 incredibly71:7 incremental 22:19

23:3 incrementally

22:19 Independence 1:11 individual43:13 individuals 63:3 industry 17:18

25:21 33:13 39:16 41:4 52:11 119:14 140:15 154:5 infiltration 153:10 influences 63:1 information7:22

22:11,12 23:6,9 24:20 27:10,16,18 59:16 78:1,10 81:5,18 82:5 84:2 85:18 98:17,18 119:15 121:13 125:12 144:18 159:14 inherently 21:10 86:13 initially44:6 initiate 150:19 151:20 157:7 158:3 initiated 136:5 137:11 input 133:2,10 153:12 inside25:1,2,3,6

89:1 install 122:5,7 installed 24:17,21

25:3 29:18 100:15 instances 56:11 instantaneous 151:1 153:4 instructions 38:11

65:20 114:9 instrument37:7,9

61:13 insulation 84:12 153:9 integral 102:15 integrated40:18

47:7 48:17 67:8 68:13,15 69:12 73:9 74:2 78:12 integrity 56:14

66:4 intend71:14 156:16 intended 15:22

47:13 70:2 72:5 91:1 102:18 103:14 108:22 113:18 124:11 127:15 intending 156:13 intent25:11 45:13

47:12 59:6 60:18 62:21 69:1 94:17 100:15 118:5 137:17 162:7 intention 51:15 118:6 interact 135:9 interacted 144:2 interaction 102:19 135:12 157:12 interactive 92:15 interest23:6,6

59:18 85:11 interested 19:22

39:15,18 46:11 53:16 69:21 70:10 86:21 88:2 114:22 132:8 139:19 141:3 167:6 interfere 62:18

95:15 interior56:21

64:16 67:7 69:12 internal 59:19 90:3

90:5 102:21 104:5 108:18 116:13,18 internet4:5 interpretation 66:1 interpreted 39:17 interrupt 127:4 interval 128:1 intervention 127:12,16 128:3,4 152:5 intro 5:4 introductions 3:9

5:15 intrude59:3 intuitively79:18,20 investigating43:9 involved 62:7 IOUs 6:7 issue 16:10,12

60:21 104:21 121:11 133:17 166:17 issues 8:7,18 43:5

43:15 60:22 150:8 item46:6 items 20:13 105:22 J January44:7 JEREMY 1:19 Jim 1:17 6:13 41:8 41:9 54:3,9 59:13 59:14 62:13 70:15 70:16 71:17 117:11,12 121:19 155:21,22 JOANNA 2:1 joined 108:1 joining 63:3 169:1 juice 36:1 jump 23:17 85:4 June44:9 54:5 justification73:7

73:12 justified 88:6 K keep 9:21 51:12

63:13 108:5 111:11 130:4 159:8 kick 62:20 kind 11:1 26:6,17

27:4,5,14 51:19 54:20 55:2 72:13 75:2 78:7 96:12 97:6,19 121:13 123:3 155:4 159:13 161:19 163:4,5 know25:14,20

27:15 34:3 49:13 57:11 58:6 75:6 78:3,11 84:4 86:2 87:6 90:17 114:17 119:17 121:16 130:2 139:10 143:21 145:2 151:15 153:16 160:6,15 165:1 166:1 167:13 168:8,18 knowledge 161:6 L lab 7:8 89:9,10 135:17 labeling 87:18 88:3 Laboratory2:4,10 2:16,19 7:10,12 7:20 labs 33:13,16 89:15 lack 133:12 language 37:3 38:5

38:14 47:16 56:17 58:11 60:18 104:17 lapse 158:1 large73:17,18

88:12 125:5 Larry 1:20 6:9

50:13,15,17 72:7 121:18 145:5,7 last-to 51:5 Lau 1:20 7:3,3 Laughter44:5 Lawrence2:9,18

7:11,19 lead 6:18 89:8 leak 63:21 leaks 63:19 leave 61:20 123:3 168:5,17 leaving 123:8 left5:16 66:1 152:11 length 130:15 lengths 132:16 let's4:3 63:4 65:1

88:7 101:22 106:4 106:6,18 107:1,2 116:6 124:6 129:19 130:4 148:12 168:1 level 83:16 88:14 levels 104:8 126:10 153:9 166:7 lie 39:9 light 16:7 20:20 lighting29:15

88:22 90:3,6 92:10 93:18 94:13 95:11 102:16 104:5,8,14 109:3 111:1 112:5202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. 

### Page 180 125:20 126:10,13 127:9 128:11 136:2 146:6 lights 83:10 113:1,2 128:14 145:11,14 145:21 146:10 limit 10:1 56:20 limited 149:12 limiting 57:18 limits 166:9 Linda 162:14 165:11,12 line 10:22 44:13

47:18 52:9 108:1 141:19 lines 64:6 liquid 35:8,11 liquids 35:19,22

36:2 list 16:20 87:8,15 106:3 123:14 135:4 listed 38:14 89:3 101:11 128:18 listening 10:15 literature 23:11

35:18 76:17 literatures 80:18 little 5:3 33:15

84:16 94:10 97:20 110:9 117:16 128:3 129:15 132:5 166:5 load98:4 loaded29:10 30:22

33:12 loading 30:20 36:8 locations 62:18 logically 22:17 long 66:16 143:10 144:2 longer23:7 136:4 look42:9 81:17 123:16 164:21 looked 36:18 92:19 148:3 154:18 looking 5:10 35:18 76:17 79:13 96:4 160:13 looks44:8 138:19 148:4 155:4 158:7 160:22 lot9:8 19:6,8 25:7

35:1 36:2 39:17 44:16,16 74:17 84:1,2 86:15 88:11,20 92:20,21 93:4 96:22 102:2 102:4 113:4 123:11 132:15 133:8,19 141:10 144:1,5 153:9 165:1 168:20 lots 9:19 Louis 2:11 5:21

22:6,8 26:15 53:10,11 72:11,12 82:13 85:19 96:1 122:15,16 147:15 147:16 151:7 154:15 158:17 164:5,6 low 15:5 67:11 81:1 115:12 124:19,20 125:3,9,11,19,22 126:2,17 127:7,19 128:6,9,13,20,21 128:22 129:1,3,10 129:16,21,22 130:1,8,16 131:5 131:13 132:12,18 132:19 133:4,15 133:16 134:1,4,10 134:11,15 135:20 136:1,4 139:20,20 139:22 140:1,13 140:17 141:4,17 142:4,9,13 143:11 144:16 145:1 146:16 147:21,22 148:2,9,13 149:6 149:9,11,16,22 150:4,7,14,16,20 151:9,14 152:19 152:21 153:20 154:16 155:13 156:20 157:1,4,7 158:4,12,16 162:4 162:7 164:8 lower71:5 80:2 105:15 126:7 149:2 lowest67:21 68:1,3

68:8,11,13,14,15 69:2,14 70:4 71:18 73:14,19 74:4,5 76:2 77:7 78:4,6 80:4 81:11 85:15 86:11 88:5 94:19 95:14 109:15,18 110:5,8 110:14 112:13 114:6,20 lunch9:2 106:18 167:3,12 168:1,3 M machine 13:2,4,12 13:13,15,16 22:18 23:17,19 28:16,19 29:5,9 30:1,2,4,7 30:8,14 31:7,16 31:17 32:15 40:4 46:6,15,22 47:1 48:12,19,21 49:1 49:2 51:1,9 55:11 56:10,13 57:10 58:14 61:1,12,19 62:22 63:18 64:1 64:5,16,17 66:4 67:12,13,16 79:17 82:6,6 84:11 90:2 91:6,7 92:1 93:21 94:6,16,18 97:17 110:4,7,22 111:2 112:11 117:3,4 123:4,20 124:19 126:16,18 130:11 131:7 132:21 135:10,19 137:2 137:20 145:10,19 145:20 148:15 156:15 161:3,10 machine's 127:9 128:11 129:2 machines 1:3 4:12

9:5 11:15 13:10 13:17,18 14:5,11 16:18,19 17:6 18:21 19:13 21:3 22:2 24:20 28:6,8 28:14 31:6,21 32:11,19 33:12,17 33:19 34:1,3,10 34:13,16,20 35:2 36:3,8 43:7 45:19 51:8,18,21 52:1 52:12 53:7 60:3 63:16 70:11,18,18 71:7,18 75:16 76:4 77:1 87:7,9 87:15,19 91:16 96:4 97:16 106:13 106:15 117:20 123:10 135:8 139:14 159:5 165:1 main45:6 102:17 120:21 130:22 134:13 maintain26:19

46:14 159:10 maintained 38:17

39:5,22 46:7 68:21 69:11 71:6 151:6 153:5 maintaining41:5

45:14 68:2,17 103:8 maintenance 69:11 Majette 1:21 6:17

6:17 major 63:19 majority 24:18,19 maker 108:17 making 11:21 80:1 Malakar 1:21

64:22 65:3 75:9 75:11,15 77:14 87:5,12,20 99:7 99:13,19 100:11 100:17 101:6 136:12,18 137:21 138:3,17 Man44:3 management 125:1 126:14 130:17 135:4 137:9,16 145:18 manner29:19 62:1

91:15 156:15 manners 142:4 manual 128:4 manually 90:17 127:19 manufactured

96:11 manufacturer

32:17 34:4,22 54:2 60:9,13,17 60:19 61:5,18 66:3 70:8 76:17 80:18 84:1 132:13 132:14 133:2 134:16 137:10 142:3,6 148:7,12 manufacturer's

59:18 manufacturers 11:16 17:6 22:9 22:16 23:4 33:3,6 35:12 41:4 49:19 50:21 51:17 55:7 61:7 66:7 72:5 73:21 76:21 77:1 80:16 83:20 84:5 88:19 98:18 101:10 114:22 121:16 129:10 132:15 133:10,19 133:22 134:4 135:16 153:12 154:10 155:6 157:7 161:6 162:10 manufacturing202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. 

### Page 181 23:10 market71:9 76:19 125:6 156:5 166:8 mass 35:9 36:22

37:8 masse 18:15 material 9:8 10:16 106:17 matter58:5 106:21 169:5 Mau 1:22 63:5,10

63:10,14 64:5 162:15,20,20 163:21 MAUER2:1 max 32:8 maximum 31:1

32:8,16 36:9 90:6 90:12 98:5,10 104:6 118:19 135:6 MDEC70:18 71:5

73:22 82:21 117:22 118:2 mean25:8 26:20

58:20 68:4 83:5 107:15 115:13 121:14 123:17 138:5,6,19 143:15 147:10 151:13 157:6 161:16 meaning55:6 136:15 means 13:4 39:5

40:19 46:20 54:14 60:6 62:6 68:14 68:15 102:14 105:11 106:15 107:16,21 108:8 109:2,19 110:15 111:9,12 127:18 meant 123:14 135:15 measure 12:8 89:8 measured 16:17 17:4 43:6 47:3 92:2 134:6,8 149:14 measurement 18:13 19:16,19 20:3,11,15 35:16 62:4 76:8 110:20 measurements

40:20 41:18 measuring 19:2

37:9 43:12 mechanism43:10

77:11 mechanisms 111:6 meet67:6,14 69:17

70:22 71:9,11 72:6 76:4,12 77:2 77:19 93:16 96:19 96:20 104:1 105:13 109:4 114:7 123:19 138:11 139:15 147:5 meeting 1:6,10,12

4:10 5:6,13 8:21 9:1,18 10:17 54:5 94:17 97:15 139:11 meetings 9:7 10:5 meets 60:18 108:9 114:3 137:3 162:7 members 32:2 memory42:4 mentioned 37:5

69:19 70:6 76:13 81:10 113:4 121:5 124:1 128:6 152:7 152:14 mentioning97:14 merchandise 13:20

32:1 Merchandising 1:17,18,21 6:14 41:10 65:4 75:13 79:4 merits 52:4 messed 90:16 met 1:10 65:18

69:10 109:10 method 14:7 17:14 18:2,4,16,17,18 18:22 19:9,15 20:2,3,7,10,20 26:5 27:10 37:2 52:8 57:15,17,18 59:1,6 61:4 65:5 65:17 66:3 70:13 124:20 126:5 129:9 131:10 132:6,10 133:13 140:17 141:5 150:6 153:2 154:8 154:11 161:3 162:11 166:14 methodology 23:21 methods 14:4 18:1

57:6,11,19,22 61:10 79:10 83:18 130:6 133:5 138:16,20 143:14 146:10 154:7 165:14 metric25:12 132:1 MICHAEL 1:22 Michelle 2:3 7:9 microphones 5:18 microwave 108:17 mid-morning 8:12 middle70:3 121:10 Mike 63:5,7,10

64:3,20 162:15,15 162:20 163:21 milk 35:1 million 80:10 mind 51:12 98:9 112:17 161:20 mine 154:16 minimally 114:14 minor 14:8 minorly 18:2 minus 21:4 38:16

39:10,21 45:14 67:7,9 69:13,15 70:2 76:12 152:4 minute43:2 minutes41:22 42:5 42:13 106:7,16 141:14 Mitchell 2:2 6:5,5

26:2,2 27:7 42:18 42:18,22 43:4 44:3,6,22 58:8,8 58:18 83:22 160:18,19 mixture 35:21 mode 10:1 94:22

95:2 102:13,14,14 102:20 103:1,6,11 103:15 105:2 107:4 108:9,20 109:5,9,17,19 110:7 112:19,21 114:3,4,7,8,21 115:2,6 116:11,11 116:14,17,19,20 117:1,1 124:19,20 124:20 125:3,9,12 126:1 127:8,19 128:9,13,20,21,22 129:1,3,11,16,21 129:22 130:1,8,12 130:16 131:5,13 131:13 132:18,20 133:4,15,16 134:1 134:5,10,11 136:5 139:21,22 140:1 140:13,17 141:17 142:4,9 143:11 144:16 146:16 147:22,22 148:3 148:10,13 149:2,6 149:9,12,16 150:7 150:14,16,20 151:9 152:21 153:21 154:17 155:7,11,15 156:14,20 157:1,4 157:8 158:4,13,16 158:20 162:4,4,5 162:8 164:8 165:5 model 30:4 32:21

68:16 89:21 101:1 118:13,17,22 119:9,11 models 33:8 67:11

73:17,19 76:15,22 86:5,14,14 101:2 101:3,7,12 118:16 119:1 123:16 142:3 144:12 150:8 Moderator 1:15 modes 15:6 125:19 125:20 126:2,7,17 128:7 132:12 134:15 135:20 136:1 139:20 150:1,4 151:14 152:19 155:14 modification71:1 modifications 14:8 161:1 modified 36:20 modify 103:21 modulated 125:22 moment 141:5 money 89:19,22 105:16 117:14 118:3,7,12 119:5 119:12 120:15 121:4,20 122:3 123:9,18,21 money-processing

88:22 89:17 105:9 123:1 monitor76:16 112:18 morning4:4,9,17

9:9 168:21 morning's 167:19 move 16:8 20:21

27:22 67:1 86:19 88:8 106:1 116:5 117:10 124:6,6 127:19 moved 15:12 moving27:22 56:3

88:9 multiple 158:7 mute 10:8 108:1202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. 

### Page 182 mutually 58:22 Mvuala2:13 6:3

23:14 116:7 N name4:15,21 5:17

9:16 50:16 162:16 National 2:4,10,15

2:18 6:2 7:8,10,12 7:19 97:6 Natural 2:5,13 6:3

23:15 29:21 116:7 naturally40:4 Navigant 1:19,20

2:7,14 6:21 7:2,3 7:6 81:19 near53:3 necessarily 24:12

27:13 94:3 118:14 122:21 147:9,12 necessary 37:13,16

95:11 119:13 133:11 135:18 152:18 158:12 NEEA 22:8 53:11

72:12 need 8:1 48:5 49:18

52:19 53:3,6 61:17 63:20 64:14 65:8,15 74:12 78:10,15 118:14 121:14,16 146:9 153:14 160:9,15 161:12 168:14,14 needs47:21 59:6

65:17 78:7 103:22 105:14 negative 63:22 never 121:20 156:2 new 14:14 138:15 167:15 next-to48:15 next-to-be 31:2 next-to-be-vended

43:6 next-to-vend 38:12

38:21 40:8,20 46:9 48:11 49:3 49:16 51:3 151:1 nice4:16 44:4 130:20 132:10 niche71:9 Niemeyer2:3 7:9 night 145:1 nodding 37:17 Noll 2:5 6:1,1 non 13:20 29:6

30:9 non-cycling 154:5 non-refrigerated 13:19 29:16 NOPR 16:13 17:13 19:14 28:11 45:5 56:6 67:4 78:21 88:12 94:9 132:6 151:9 normal 104:7 126:13 normally 50:22

51:8 62:5 64:11 90:22 Northwest2:3,11

2:15 5:22 7:8,10 147:17 note29:20 70:3

86:8 93:6 150:2 noted 17:7 39:18 167:10 notice 1:3 4:10 14:12 80:21 81:2 137:6 noticed 51:19

92:21 noting49:12 50:6 nuance94:11 number 32:12,16

36:9 54:5,7,12,14 54:15 73:17,18 76:14,22 77:13 80:2 86:5,14 134:2 144:15,15 149:11,19,22 155:9 166:2,6 numbers 66:15 146:21 147:6 163:8 numerous 117:19 O obviously 16:9 46:2

53:2 140:21 144:10 160:5 occupancy 127:22 128:1 136:3 137:12 145:21 157:11 158:1 164:14 occur40:3 46:2 105:22 119:8 131:16 135:13 occurred 163:2 occurs 135:1 October44:9 oh48:4 49:11 107:17 124:9 125:16 okay4:3,8 11:3

28:1 30:16 36:14 37:20 42:8,21 43:3 44:22 45:1,3 52:14 53:20 54:3 54:17 55:18,19 56:2,4 59:13 62:8 64:19 65:3,10 67:2 72:1,10 75:11 77:22 87:3 87:22 88:7,9 95:22 101:17,19 102:9 107:1,16,18 111:14 117:11 121:12 122:13 124:7,7 130:5 136:9 152:12 163:13 165:10 once 12:15 41:21

42:5,13 81:15 130:3 one-fourth 155:2,3 one-hour 153:3 ones 10:21 166:10 online 63:4 81:18 169:2 opening 3:10 8:6 117:14 operate40:5 56:16

67:10 70:2 137:2 137:13 142:13 150:19 156:4,15 157:18 operated 90:22

91:21 92:5,6 111:7 126:13 145:18 operates 81:7 operating 12:9

76:18 79:15 80:17 80:22 81:2 83:15 111:4 144:21 operation 63:22

94:12 102:15 104:7 136:1 operational 90:15

91:21 126:15 operator 126:17,19 127:21 145:19,20 152:5 opportunity 8:5,18 opposed 35:10

78:13 opposite97:3 option 39:12 49:14

50:2 97:8,21 101:8 optional 50:9,11 129:7 149:8 options 35:5 39:13

58:4 130:7 161:22 161:22 order78:7 158:13 161:3 162:21 organizational

5:17 originally 161:2 ounce 34:21 outdoor92:2 100:4 outlet96:5,20 97:4 outlets 91:12 98:14 outlier27:14 outset 8:8 outside24:1,8,17 24:21 25:4 89:1 91:13 oversee4:22 overview 15:18,20 107:3 P P-R-O-C-E-E-D-...

4:1 p.m 151:17 169:5 Pacific2:3,15 7:7

7:10 package 37:5,14

38:22 39:2,7,22 40:6,20 41:6 46:7 49:4,17 packages 29:10

30:21 31:2,13,18 36:19 39:3,6 47:5 47:9 48:10,16,19 49:6 51:4 56:8 153:4 packet7:22 10:14 167:9 packets 5:5 page 3:7 8:2,3 65:6 pages 102:4 pan90:14 panel 62:20 64:10 panels 63:16 parenthesis72:16 Park 1:19 2:8 part 11:10,13 17:13 18:7 21:1 44:17 47:11 48:2,8 56:5 73:20 84:17 88:12 95:18 97:17 109:8 118:10 139:16 155:17,19 156:21 PARTICIPANT 108:3 participants 10:3,7 141:2 participate 5:6 Participating 2:21 particular59:16

62:7 85:5 143:5 155:7202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. 

### Page 183 particularly 20:15 153:2 parties 19:22 39:15

39:18 46:11 53:16 69:21 85:11 86:21 88:2 114:22 139:19 141:3 167:7 party 142:7 pathway57:16 pay 156:4 payment 13:7 peek 8:3 10:14,15 people26:20 27:3

91:14 102:5 105:22 117:2 127:3 140:2 144:3 145:3 148:19 156:3 159:21 164:21 percent21:4,13

22:20,21 24:19 43:11 72:17 83:6 83:7 148:19 149:13 154:22 155:1,3,3,5 158:20 159:4,22 percentage25:4

85:22 86:7 97:14 110:17 125:5 perfect 117:6 perform 59:22 105:8 performance 24:13

32:18 58:14 62:3 62:17 84:3 91:8 94:15 152:8 performing 28:21

79:14 112:11 period 12:11 131:15 132:2 134:21 135:1,14 145:14,17 146:14 150:22 152:3 153:3 154:18 155:2 156:7 158:1 158:2 163:1 periods 145:1 162:21 peripheral 109:6 110:19 permanently 126:15 138:4 permutations 117:19 person 63:5 142:2 personnel 135:17 perspective 23:8

47:17 50:5 161:17 phased 166:10 phone9:22 10:8

63:8 65:1 91:14 99:6 107:21 108:1 108:4 162:18 photo 65:20 physical 52:8 130:10 134:20 154:11 pick 144:11 pictures48:7 piece71:5 80:20

83:15 85:17 98:17 pieces47:10 pile92:12 place 89:19 90:15

91:6 100:9 118:8 119:6 123:21 144:1 159:11 placed48:10 64:12

64:12 95:14 placement32:20

66:19 placing95:7 plan9:11,12 planning 117:17 please9:15,16,21 10:1,7,8 23:13 50:16 64:22 75:10 106:8 107:8 117:11 162:17 167:18 168:4,10 plug96:18 97:22 plugged91:18 96:5

96:7 97:22 98:15 111:2 plugs 98:2 plus 8:16 21:4

38:16 39:10,20 45:14 67:6,9 69:13,15 70:1 76:12 152:4 point 8:19 10:1

44:14 55:22 60:11 72:20 113:17 120:21 129:14 152:2 166:13 points 139:17 Policy 11:6 portal 168:15 portion9:6 45:18 position 31:3 40:21 positions43:7 47:6

48:11 49:4,17 possible 59:22

63:15,19 98:21 153:7 potential 86:10,16 133:10 150:5 potentially 27:2

80:19 120:16 144:8 164:17 power 15:6 97:12 102:17 103:6 108:13,15 124:19 124:20 125:3,9,12 125:19 126:1,2,7 126:17 127:7,19 128:6,9,13,20,21 128:22 129:1,3,11 129:16,21,22 130:1,8,16 131:5 131:13 132:12,18 132:19 133:4,15 133:16 134:1,5,10 134:11,15 135:20 136:1,4 139:20,21 139:22 140:1,13 140:17 141:4,17 142:4,9,13 143:11 144:16 146:16 147:22,22 148:2 148:10,13 149:2,6 149:9,12,16 150:1 150:4,7,14,16,20 151:9,14 152:19 152:21 153:21 154:17 155:11,13 156:20 157:1,4,7 158:4,13,16 162:4 162:7 164:8 practice41:4 pre 151:18 preamble 137:6 preliminary 9:4 10:13 prepare 66:17 prescribed 11:17 12:6 presence 139:20 present 1:13 2:7

3:14 7:5,5 11:3 81:21 82:3 86:4 110:22 presentation 8:16 16:11 65:7 presentations 15:14 presented 16:20

45:6 presenting 16:10 presiding 1:12 press 148:16 pressing 108:13 pressure99:21 pretty 83:4 88:14 125:14 164:9 168:2 prevalence 154:4 prevalent74:14

85:15 99:17 prevent 135:19 152:18 previous 19:1

36:15 45:11 117:13 127:17 128:19 previously 34:19

44:20 76:13 113:4 131:14 152:14 162:16 primary 14:7 93:20 103:11 108:19 probably53:5

63:15 79:1 90:4 114:7 119:8 148:10 168:14 problem75:1 130:22 132:15 problematic 115:3 procedure 1:4 3:16

3:19 4:10,22 8:11 8:15 11:17 12:2 13:21 14:2,14,17 14:20 17:15 18:4 18:5,10,15,20 20:5 21:8,10 22:4 22:13 26:20,22 27:3 28:4,5,10 30:13,19,21 32:3 38:4,5,10 39:11 50:1,9 56:6 57:12 66:11,12 67:13,17 69:10,22 71:11 74:20 89:5,7,12 90:17 97:11 98:5 112:1,2 116:2 120:4 121:15 126:12,20 128:9 129:6,7,18 130:8 130:13 133:1 134:14 135:11 136:13,21 137:8 137:14,15 138:20 139:6,17 140:6 141:21 147:20 150:18 156:13 157:4,17,21 159:16 165:17 166:13 167:8 procedures 8:22 12:6,16,17 24:11 28:10 40:12 113:15 149:3 proceed 37:20 process 26:4,11202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. 

### Page 184 27:6 44:21 78:18 78:20 84:16 97:20 121:20 123:18 158:8 processing90:1 105:16 118:3,7,12 119:6,12 120:15 produce 12:7 102:18 product31:1 32:4

33:11,22 34:3,22 36:7,18 37:5,11 52:8,10 53:8 67:22 68:8,12,14 69:2,14 70:5 72:9 73:15,20 74:3,4,5 76:2 77:8,20 78:4 78:6,13 79:14 80:4 81:12 85:15 86:11 88:5 95:17 155:8 products 11:8,12 12:16 29:11 31:9 31:12,15 34:9 36:1,10,20 40:2 43:8,12,13 46:22 51:6,19 52:13 77:21 93:22 163:5 163:19 164:2 profile 143:17,19 153:22 profiles 111:8 144:6 program 11:11,13 151:19 159:11 programmable 161:10,14 programmed 165:4 programs 23:5 progress44:16 Project2:1 6:17 promulgated 12:4 15:1 16:4 promulgation 120:2 pronounced 162:16 properly 101:22 proportion 83:11 83:16 proportional 82:21 proposal 22:5

25:17,22 50:20 52:3 83:20 88:3 88:16 130:9 139:6 140:19 141:21 144:17 146:2 152:16 155:20 156:22 proposals 5:9 138:7 146:22 147:3 propose56:18 140:20 142:17 proposed 1:3 4:11

9:1 14:12 20:20 28:11 30:13 41:2 41:3 69:21,22 114:8 124:17 128:5 129:17 137:15 138:15 145:16 150:10 154:7 165:13 proposes 28:3 proposing 14:13 17:13 19:14 30:18 32:2 33:10 34:8 34:12 35:7 36:11 36:16 40:13 46:18 48:9 49:15 56:5 57:17 67:4,19 68:11 71:10 94:8 95:1,6 102:13 126:4 127:7 128:7 133:13 141:6 146:2 protect91:6 protocol79:9 provide 16:9 35:4

38:11 53:22 114:9 135:17 provided 13:2

59:16,17 119:2 provides 11:10 12:22 provision 69:8 73:15,21 74:12 76:3 77:11 78:14 80:5 81:12 96:21 104:19 105:3 provisions 11:7 15:5 16:3 44:15 99:15 113:13 118:22 124:18 127:1 PTSD 148:4 public 1:6,10,14

4:10,16 10:17 publication 14:17 17:8 74:9 112:1 113:11 119:20 publicly 81:14 publish 12:18

80:16 155:7 pull 60:22 131:15 133:7 149:17 pull-down 131:2 132:16 133:17 pulled 84:10 133:6 pulling 131:7 132:17,21 pumps 90:14 purchased 31:10

45:21 purchasing 145:4 purpose 10:17

91:12 96:20 98:14 123:5 purposes 32:22

58:17 89:6 142:15 152:9 pursue78:21 85:13 push26:10 pushing 135:18 put62:13 93:3 110:4 115:10 122:10 123:9 142:8,12 143:11 143:12 145:13 159:5 161:11 164:9 167:20 putting 123:10 148:14Q QA 162:11 qualification

116:19 qualified 125:6 qualify 116:22 quantifiable47:15

129:9 quantifiably 150:6 quantitative

130:21 132:11 134:12 quantity 31:1 question 15:13

22:9 23:15,22 25:15 26:16 42:11 52:5 53:19 55:4 64:21 66:5 72:3 75:9,17 79:7 96:3 99:8 108:8 114:17 114:19 136:8,12 140:14 156:6 165:12 166:4 questions 5:7 9:12

15:10 55:21 65:15 102:2 111:17 114:15 115:13 queue 106:6 107:8 quick93:7 quickly 16:8 133:6

153:11 quite43:8 106:3

127:1 141:20 142:1 R raise 8:8,19 10:8

121:3 158:8 162:22 raises 161:13 range 35:17 76:18

80:17,22 81:3 96:6 104:16 155:9 ranges79:11 RANSOM2:8 rapidly92:18 rate41:12,14 164:16 rating 14:5 118:20

119:3 reach 104:5 react 142:7 read46:19 88:13

89:16 105:4,7 ready 124:6 real 147:2 148:21 realized 142:20 really 5:10 8:22

27:18 35:15 38:19 39:20 52:18 66:6 66:15 74:18 77:9 77:11 80:6 84:18 97:17 101:18,21 106:7 133:2,12 140:14 148:13,17 153:16 155:18 158:21 159:6 162:13 165:3 166:3 167:21 reason 12:20 23:16

77:5 84:17 99:8,9 109:1 110:8 138:19 142:14 144:13 149:4,5 156:3 reasonable 82:11

149:21 153:8,14 reasonably 12:7 reasoning99:11 received7:22 39:14

46:17 recognized 10:9 reconfigure 50:21 record 9:16 37:18

50:16 106:21 169:5 reduced 124:21 refer 14:1 21:14

167:9 reference 14:3

19:14,16,18 20:3 33:21 37:3 referenced 17:14202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. 

### Page 185 20:1 21:18 69:6 70:20 referencing 18:18 refers 38:19 47:11 reflect 140:7,13 refrigerant 165:21

166:15 refrigerants 165:15 refrigerate 93:21 refrigerated 1:3

4:11 13:1,3,11 14:10 17:17 19:3 19:12,17,19 20:4 20:11,16 23:20 28:12,17 29:2,7,8 29:13 30:9,10 31:20 32:1 40:2 43:17 45:15,17,18 46:3,21 47:1,3,14 56:21 67:15 93:20 94:5,16,17 refrigerating 28:22

94:3,14 refrigeration40:11

40:16 64:6 69:4 72:19 94:5 112:9 112:11 113:22 116:14 125:21 127:9 128:12 129:1,3,10,22 131:3 132:19 134:1,4,11,15 139:22 140:1 142:10 146:16 147:21 148:3,9 149:2,16,22 150:4 150:7,14,20 151:9 151:14,16 152:21 155:11 156:20 157:1 158:4,12,16 159:15 160:5 164:8 refrigerator 13:5 refrigerator/free...

19:4 refrigerators 19:3 reg 151:8 regarding 117:13 Register 12:19 14:18 17:8 74:9 112:2 regulations40:12 regulatory 3:13 8:9

11:3,4 137:5 reiterate 111:21

167:14 relative 21:4,13,16

82:19 relevant 12:3 17:18

79:2 80:14 remain 151:3 remainder 136:5 remaining77:20 remarks4:19 8:18

167:6 remember 101:22 reminder 124:8 remote 102:21

108:13 remove 19:17

90:17 99:9 removed 64:10

91:3,9 removing22:1 reorganize 14:13 report 81:13 reported 23:10 REPORTER4:7 reporting 66:13 reports74:1 represent27:13

29:17 108:22 114:12 118:17 135:15 146:3 representations

11:21 33:3 125:8 155:15 representative

12:11 24:13 25:6 29:4,19 56:15 78:3,16 81:6 82:10 85:8 94:4 98:11,21 100:8,14 104:10,19 110:17 115:5,14,17 119:9 120:17 123:4,14 125:10 134:2 144:8,9 146:1 153:21 154:12 155:18 represented 32:21 representing 6:6 request 19:21

44:14 67:18 101:9 104:4 141:15 152:10 154:3,6 167:5 requested 63:6 requesting20:1

36:5 69:20 requests 20:12 22:4

30:11 37:14 41:1 49:10 50:7 127:2 149:18 152:15,22 153:17,20 154:15 require42:16

49:15 140:9 161:1 required 16:3

21:10 23:8 27:9 27:14 33:9 46:6 49:21 50:3 69:17 70:22 73:22 74:2 74:11 81:16 82:10 111:13 113:7,13 134:22 136:4 138:9 140:10 152:7 requirement 12:19

21:2 22:2 24:11 25:18 34:13,16 35:6 36:4 46:11 59:9 67:8 76:13 77:19 87:18 88:4 118:2 125:5 137:4 requirements 19:6

21:16 30:20 34:6 37:8 41:6 50:10 66:13 67:5 68:18 69:5,9 85:1 110:12 150:21 requires 12:5,14 30:22 33:21 42:13 requiring 81:10 research 24:18

86:15 researched 54:14 reset 156:17 158:10 resistance 90:9

91:20 Resources 2:5,13

6:2,4 23:15 29:21 116:8 respond 83:21 88:2

114:17 118:10 responded 65:15 response 65:16 rest45:22 86:13

105:7 restrictive 35:12 restrooms 106:11

168:18 result 15:1 16:5

25:10 115:21 results 12:8 89:14 resume 106:16 resumed 106:22 retained 37:3 retaining 34:15,18 return 8:14 106:5

152:4 review 8:5 12:15

20:8 114:6 139:12 139:17 reviewed 18:1

63:21 reviewing75:5

80:22 125:2 revise 101:12 revising26:5 revision 17:20

58:10 rid26:7 right 10:20 42:12

61:8 74:10 75:6,7 79:20 83:2 97:18 98:7 100:3,19 106:10,19 113:16 116:15 117:5 120:21 121:5 126:11 129:5 135:8 137:11 138:1,8 140:18 141:14,16,17 154:1 159:2,3,11 159:18 160:14,22 165:18 rigorous 39:19

78:18,19 84:20 rise 162:2 163:18

164:4 road 84:18 Rolando2:17 6:11

62:11 84:7,8 161:8 Ron 6:17 RONALD 1:21 room 1:10 5:19

10:10 23:19 63:9 65:2 79:5 85:11 107:20 168:16 Rosenquist2:9

7:18,19 rotation43:17 roughly42:14

72:16 route 62:17,20 rows 32:13 Royal 1:22 63:11 rule 13:8,22 14:2

14:18 17:15 18:6 18:8,15 21:12,18 111:20 112:2 156:9 165:13 rulemaking 1:3

4:11 11:5 12:21 14:13 15:2 16:5 44:18 77:4 120:5 120:11 124:13 rules 119:21 run56:9,12,18

61:19 62:15 64:3 64:6,8,11 70:18 70:19 104:3 152:16 rundown 134:19202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. 

### Page 186 running5:3 9:7

136:19 S S.W 1:11 sample41:17 sampling41:12

43:10 sand47:18 SandenVendo 1:20

2:17 6:9,12 50:14 62:12 72:8 84:9 121:19 145:8 161:9 Sara7:7 Sarah 1:16 2:15

3:17,20 6:16 15:7 15:15 27:8 55:22 101:15 108:5 122:22 141:19 160:8 save 142:14 saved 127:2 savings 86:10,16 125:13 148:6,20 149:14 155:1,10 155:13,16,19 162:12 165:4,8 saw 128:17 says 38:15 43:5

58:12 scale 35:15 82:18

82:18,20 132:4 scaled 131:22 scaling 85:7 scenarios 143:22 schedule 127:20 157:6 161:22 162:1 164:7,10 schedule-based 157:10 scheduled 157:18 schedules 164:22 scheduling-based 162:6 Scope 3:13 8:10 Scott2:2,18 6:5

7:11 26:2,13 27:20 42:18 58:7 58:8 160:16,18 screen 38:14 94:13

95:11,12,18 102:17 108:14 112:6 157:14 screens 92:10,15

93:19 104:14 105:8 seal 64:15 sealed 13:20 14:6

32:8,16 36:9 second20:22 39:12

48:2 66:5 81:9 156:6 section 18:12 19:5

33:20 37:1 68:19 167:5 Sections 19:2 secured 168:16 security 89:2 91:5

99:10 168:15 see4:16 9:13 10:9

37:17 55:5 60:21 63:4 75:1,1,5 118:14 129:20 139:14 142:16 147:6,11 155:10 162:12 164:21 165:7 166:8,19 168:22 seeing75:3 81:6 seemingly 57:13 seen70:7 98:14 123:11 143:9 155:13 157:13 163:18 sees 144:1 segue 149:2 select 80:20 95:17 selected 24:16

35:17 100:12 126:10 144:7 selecting 35:11 selection 95:13 selections45:20 sell 155:8 Senator7:15 sense48:8 78:9 158:5 sensible25:22 sensor 127:22 128:1 136:3 137:13 145:21 157:11 sensors 164:14 separate 13:19

22:14 73:9 78:12 78:19 84:19 86:17 87:6 101:12 105:14 121:22 130:10,14 131:6 separated 130:4 separately 92:11 September 1:8

4:12 serves42:4 session 167:19 set 11:6 71:21

78:16 83:18 84:22 90:9,12 97:11 120:6 127:21,22 135:5 158:15 160:11 setting9:6 68:1,4

71:19 78:8,17 84:19 85:3 86:9 86:17 105:1 113:1 113:2 124:3 131:4 settings 126:14 setup 59:17 seven 12:15 share9:19 sharing27:8 shelf-style48:12

52:11 shelves 62:15 shelving 32:20 33:6

33:7 ship 101:2 shop 106:8,10 short 106:4 shortly 116:5 show31:4 37:18 84:2 139:2,8 142:12 147:14 shown 148:6 shows 147:12 shut 161:13 shuts 145:11 Siaca7:15,15 side49:13,13 57:10

94:13 148:15 sidebar 10:2 sign95:10 102:16 112:5 signage96:5 signal 102:21 103:10 significant23:3

76:14,22 93:11 142:11 157:22 significantly 137:22 signs 92:9 93:18 104:14 109:3 115:7 silent9:22 57:3,13 similar46:13 49:2

69:19 71:5 129:6 137:8 simple 19:8 simplifies 18:22 simply 60:10 single 32:21 55:13

86:6 131:11 133:14 Siobhan7:15 Sir 62:10 six 133:7 136:6 144:14 154:1,18 155:1 size97:13 skip 5:4 10:20

26:21 skipping27:4 sleep 112:19,21 slide 10:15,20

70:21 88:10,17 95:2 102:11 107:3 117:13 124:10 127:5 128:19 129:14 151:8 156:6 167:5 slides 16:22 102:7 107:3,6 126:5 127:1 142:16 167:1 slightly71:4 small 8:17 25:4

71:9 77:13 86:14 SNAP 165:13 software71:21 161:1 solicit79:2 Solutions 1:14 4:16 somebody79:13 116:18 somewhat 149:19 sorry25:2 82:3 109:13 164:1 sort20:21 21:17

35:16 72:13 92:11 102:2 103:8 127:21 148:3 150:15 161:1 sorts 92:16 sound 63:12 sounds74:16 122:17 148:2 source 148:22 Southern2:2 6:6

26:3 58:9 160:19 space 35:10 39:4

43:17 45:15,18 46:3 135:6 spatial40:9 48:14 SPC 6:8 speak5:20 9:15,17 10:9 63:6,8 107:11 speaking 107:22 special71:20 specific 15:12 18:11 19:6,11,12 21:7 30:4,20 35:11 38:11,13 43:19 44:15 56:17202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. 

### Page 187 57:17,18 58:11 66:15 72:3 99:16 101:1 110:11,12 119:5 126:5,22 127:5 144:20 150:8 154:3 specifically 20:2

22:14 28:7,17 31:4 36:10 53:17 56:6 70:4 78:9 89:12 111:15 135:11 specification 35:7

36:17 52:21 57:2 101:13 115:21 118:7 specifications

32:18 36:19 37:11 41:7,20 89:4 100:13 104:12 119:19 120:9 125:17 128:16 specificity 120:22 specified 34:4,22

42:20 67:6 68:19 71:14 90:20 115:6 135:3,11 137:4 153:15 156:7 specifies 126:12 specify 35:13 112:16 132:20 152:17 specifying 141:5 159:9 spend 88:11 spiral46:16 spirals 32:12 split 15:21 stabilization 68:18

68:21 69:5 134:21 stabilize22:22 stack 31:17,19

45:19,21 46:1 49:5,6 64:5 stack-style49:2 stacked 52:12 stacking 52:8 stage 117:21 146:14 stakeholders 140:15 Stand 82:1 84:6 standard9:5 14:4 18:8,12,17 21:6 21:21 29:10,11 31:1,2,13,14,17 33:11,22 34:2,9 36:7,10,18,19,20 37:4,5,11,13 38:15,22 39:6,6 40:6,19 41:3,5 42:13 46:7 47:4,8 48:9,16,18 49:3,5 49:16 56:8 58:1 60:5 69:18 71:1,2 71:12 73:8 77:4,6 77:7 78:8,17 86:17 90:5 93:1 93:16 104:1 105:14,14 120:22 124:4 138:6,6 146:21 167:11 standards 2:1 9:4 11:14,20 12:3 14:3,22 15:2 16:1 16:4 17:10,17 21:12 33:1 51:11 53:2,4,7 67:14 83:18 85:3 86:10 93:6 94:21 112:4 113:8,11,12,19 115:18 116:3 119:18 120:3,7,12 124:12 138:10,12 138:14,21 139:3,4 139:13,15 140:7,9 140:13 166:16 standby94:22 95:2 102:12,14 103:1 103:10,15 105:2 107:4,14 108:7,15 108:20 109:9,17 109:19 110:7 114:4,7,8,21 115:2,6,10 116:11 116:11,13,14,17 116:18,20,22 117:1 124:20 STAR 125:4,6 Starr2:11 5:21,21

22:7,8,8 26:16 53:11,11,19,21 72:12,12 74:16 82:14,15,17 83:2 85:21 96:3 97:2 97:19 106:13 122:16,16 147:16 147:17 154:15,16 158:18 159:3 164:6,6 start5:15,16 11:2

72:20 75:3 107:2 131:11 132:21 157:15 169:2 started 16:14 starting91:14 167:11 starts 11:5 97:16 state77:17 90:7,13

94:20 95:15 103:16,19 104:6 105:15 109:15,19 110:5,9,14 112:14 114:6,14,20 127:8 128:10 129:2 131:12 133:14 134:9 135:1,14 136:22 137:16,20 141:4 142:13 152:15,16 157:3 158:4 167:1 stated 158:7 statement 118:10 statements 3:10 8:6 states 96:15 station 145:2 statutory 139:15 stay 88:14 168:4 step 158:7 stick 116:2 stimulation 135:12 135:18 136:3 stimuli 145:12 152:17 stop 108:2 storage 32:4 store 144:22 145:3 stores 144:22 straight 83:5 straightforward 19:8 strategy 140:4 stream 121:10 strict46:10 stringent 139:14 struggled 141:20 143:2 stuff5:4 10:13 11:1

96:12 168:17 style 31:17 Suami 2:13 6:3,3

23:14,14 116:7,10 116:16 Subarna 1:21

64:22 65:11 75:8 75:9 79:5 87:1,4 99:2,4,6 136:7,10 submit73:19 74:2 167:8 submitted49:18

53:16 60:13 76:7 submitting44:19

66:7 73:22 subsequent 16:22 126:4 substantive 106:17 substitute43:12 sufficient 37:17

65:8,22 104:17 suggest61:4 suggested 53:17 suggesting 87:18

97:3 suggestion 59:15

65:16 suggestions 111:16 159:19 summary 17:1 support78:7 supporting 147:18 supposed 159:7,9 sure 36:1 72:18

74:17 85:8 86:5 111:20 136:9,19 142:20 151:22 166:12 168:10 swipe 89:18 switch98:2 switched 102:19 system46:21 128:12 129:3 130:18 131:3 142:11 145:18 151:16 systems 1:17,18,22

6:14 41:10 65:4 75:13 91:22 122:4 122:6,8 125:21 127:10 128:12 130:15 137:9,17 T t72:15 83:1 table 3:6 38:15

83:20 94:11 take 8:2,12 10:14 10:14 15:10 30:16 40:21 51:6 61:18 66:16 102:6 105:20 106:4 116:6 133:7 157:8 163:5 taken41:19 149:10 160:21 takes 168:2 talk 10:22 43:15

84:21 104:3 138:14 146:19 148:2 talked75:2 150:9 talking 15:19 32:6

42:22 85:22 148:19 target51:3 teat 163:16 telephonically 2:21202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. 

### Page 188 television 108:11 111:3 tell 60:19 156:21 160:4 temp 80:17 temperature 24:2,4

37:9 38:13,21 40:8,18,19 41:6 41:15 46:8,9,14 47:4,8 48:17 67:7 67:9,22 68:1,4,9 68:12,13,15,16,18 69:3,9,12,14 70:5 71:19 72:9 73:9 73:10,15,20 74:3 74:4,6 75:19 76:3 76:12 77:8 78:4,6 78:13 79:11 80:5 80:17 81:8,12 84:3 85:7,16 86:12 87:9,16 88:5 90:19,21 100:1 109:7 128:15 131:4,9,18 151:2 153:11,15 154:19 157:19 158:9,10,14 161:14 162:2,22 temperature-bas...

54:22 temperature-me...

37:7 temperatures

29:13 39:5 41:12 48:20 68:20 132:17 156:17 temporal40:9

48:14 temporally 39:1

40:1 132:4 ten72:17 106:7,16 154:22 155:1 term 13:3 40:15

53:4 116:20 terminology 95:4 terms 75:3 test 1:4 3:16,19 4:10,22 8:11,15 8:21 11:17 12:1,6 12:7,16,17 13:21 14:2,7,14,17,20 17:14,15 18:4,4,5 18:9,15,20 19:15 20:2,3,5 21:2,5,8 21:10 22:2,3,10 22:13,18 23:21 24:3,6,8,11 25:10 26:5,7,19,22 27:3 27:9,9 28:4,5,9,10 29:10,12 30:13,19 30:21,21 31:2,13 31:18 32:3 33:13 33:16 35:19 36:3 36:19 37:2,4,13 38:4,5,10,17,19 38:22 39:2,3,5,6,7 39:7,9,11,22 40:1 40:6,12,20,21 41:5,13 46:7 47:5 47:8,21 48:10,16 48:19 49:3,5,14 49:16,17,19,22,22 50:2,9 52:3,21 54:14 56:6,8 59:7 61:1,4,17 64:2 66:11,12 67:5,13 67:17 68:3 69:10 69:22 71:10,20 76:5,10,10 84:2 89:5,7,12 90:16 90:18 91:3,9 97:11 98:5 100:8 100:18 112:1,1 113:14 116:2 120:4,22 121:15 124:20 125:7,10 126:5,12,20,22 128:9 129:6,7,18 130:6,8,11,13,14 131:11,15 133:1,4 133:14,15,16 134:8,14,20 135:1 135:11,14 136:6 136:14 137:1,8,14 137:15 138:15,18 138:20 139:5,17 140:6,17 141:5 142:5 143:12 145:13,22 146:10 146:14 147:20 149:7 150:5,11,18 152:6 153:1,4 154:7,8,11,18 156:7,16 157:3,4 157:17,21 159:16 160:14 161:3,21 162:2,9 163:4 165:17,20,21,21 166:2,7,13,14,14 167:7 tested 51:22 67:16

67:20 69:16 70:1 82:9 87:9,16 100:6,21 121:4,8 135:8 testing 14:5 21:19

25:18 26:21 28:8 33:14 39:16 43:21 50:5 59:19 60:9 64:14 66:2 67:21 68:5 75:22 79:10 79:11 88:4,18 121:22 134:2 135:10,16 142:1 143:8,9 149:13,21 157:2 162:4,21 163:9,12,18 164:2 165:14 tests 22:14 38:16

62:16 64:14 130:10 131:2,6 133:11 146:11 text 137:5 151:8 thank7:17 15:16 15:17 25:2 26:12 27:19 50:18 53:9 54:17 62:8 63:2 64:19 65:10,12 72:10 77:22 87:22 98:7,22 118:4 121:12 122:13 165:10 thanks 15:8 169:1 theirs 121:8 theoretical 86:16 thermal 35:9 56:14

58:14 59:4,4 66:4 thermocouple

36:21 56:9,11,18 thermocouples

31:14 56:7 59:21 60:7 61:19 62:16 62:17 63:1 64:4,8 66:20 thermodynamic

72:14,17 153:8 163:10 thermodynamica...

71:3 82:18 83:14 154:17 thermostat 68:4,6

70:9 92:1,5 157:20 158:2,15 thermostats 70:11 thing26:6 29:20

49:12 50:6 54:11 64:13 65:4 77:14 85:10 86:8 88:6 96:19 100:17,19 102:1 108:10 122:17 130:20 134:13 148:1,8 164:19 things 35:1 80:13

83:11 91:15 92:16 96:6 97:22 112:17 123:2,13 127:4 133:18,18 139:1 153:10 157:22 165:2 think 10:18 24:19

25:21 27:7 37:20 39:20 42:19 43:1 44:7,13 48:3 52:7 52:22 54:11 55:8 58:4 59:17 60:3 60:15 62:13 64:13 65:7,8,16 70:14 73:6 77:15 79:21 84:15 85:6 87:7 97:16,21 100:7 101:10,15,20 102:6,10 105:3 106:3 108:10 110:10 111:16 116:18 119:7 123:13,17 124:9 130:2 132:5 143:7 151:11 152:11 155:17 158:18 160:20 165:19,19 165:22 166:4,11 167:20 thinking 84:17

86:22 118:20 120:3 thins 8:7 third 28:1 36:14

65:9 133:13 142:7 third-party 59:20 thought27:6 52:18

73:2 75:4 82:15 83:3 97:20 100:13 103:2 114:16,16 115:14 thoughts 52:16 three 8:3 41:21

42:5,13 129:21 148:19 149:13 158:19 159:4,22 threw54:6 tight46:14 time 9:15,16,19 10:22 17:20 20:20 39:4 44:13 88:11 92:4 128:1 130:15 144:4 145:4 153:3 153:6,13 161:12 167:3 timer 151:14 times 22:14 134:10 155:3 timestamp 103:9 timetable44:1 Title 11:10202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. 

### Page 189 to-vend47:6 today4:12 15:19

39:17 71:20 76:19 119:14 154:10 163:19 164:3 166:8 Today's 8:21 toe 141:19 told 5:19 tolerance 35:13

37:8 39:21 46:15 tolerances 39:12 top42:14 49:4 topic53:1 117:13 139:11 totally 10:5 touch95:12 touching 157:14 traditional48:18 traffic 144:1 transcript9:18 transfer46:2 transition 117:6 140:11 translates 72:18 trays 62:15 treat 128:8 treated40:11 120:1 127:16 129:17 treatment 107:4,5 tried 38:2 133:3 trigger 139:16 triggered 139:12 trooping 168:9 true 163:11 165:20 try 61:11 106:6 111:14 122:6 trying 10:4 44:7

93:14 159:14 160:4 TUESDAY 1:8 turn 10:7 52:5 68:6

70:9 109:22 112:15 133:18,18 145:13,21 151:16 turned9:22 76:6 108:12 109:5 111:3,3 112:14 146:10 turning 128:14 turns 125:18 TV93:4 112:18,18 TVs 93:1 103:2

109:3 two 8:2,22 9:7 14:3

27:2 34:8 36:15 37:20 46:8 49:7 55:16 65:7,14,18 80:13 99:15 101:7 123:13 128:5,6 129:15 131:1,5 138:20 139:1 145:11 146:12 158:9 163:17 164:3 166:22 type5:4 15:18 17:1

32:20 58:22 85:5 101:5 103:3 110:15 120:12 121:10 123:20 124:22 125:13 140:3,4 types 32:12 100:10 128:6 129:16 typical 31:5,5,7

45:19 123:4 144:21 146:4 typically 31:16

61:11 80:16 96:9 107:20 123:15 145:1 155:10 156:2 U U.S 1:1 Uh-huh71:22 163:17 un-mute 64:22 162:18 un-muted 107:21 unambiguous

47:21 48:5 130:21 132:11 understand 57:6 116:13 117:2 understandable 58:22 understanding

22:16 73:18 80:16 96:10 141:1 understands74:15 understood 146:7 156:8 undertaking 12:20 unduly 12:12 uniform 142:5 unit 12:10 51:2

56:14 84:10 147:13 units 152:16 unmute 63:7 99:6 unnecessarily

39:19 unplug96:16,18 110:1,3 113:21 unrefrigerated

23:20 unsure 117:17 update 17:14 19:14

74:22 updated 17:18 18:2 138:4 updating20:1,2 upper 166:9 usage 143:17,18 144:6 use 11:17 12:1,9,11 12:12 17:5,6 24:14 27:13 28:13 29:18 35:20 43:9 50:3 54:22 60:17 61:2,4,9 66:3 71:4 72:20,22 74:3,12 75:19 79:19 82:4 82:7,10,12 93:10 93:17 94:7 97:14 108:15 113:14 119:2 131:3 138:9 139:2,5,8 140:10 140:11 145:1 146:2,3,13 147:21 149:22 152:8 useful 37:19 119:15 166:15 user 103:17 127:11 127:15 128:2 151:10 153:22 user-generated 102:21 uses 83:18 utilities 140:16 utility 23:5 V valid79:21 166:14 validation 152:6 valuable55:2 value 39:9 166:7 vandal 63:16 vandalism91:7 variability 33:16

88:20 89:8 93:13 101:4 113:5 126:8 132:18 133:8,9 144:6 149:20 variable78:14 122:1 variation 132:12 134:15 variations 39:11

40:3 varies 84:3 variety 11:7 31:21

32:4 57:21 60:3 89:22 92:17 96:8 104:8 111:5 117:18 118:11 122:7 125:19 126:1 139:18 143:13 various 11:8 vary 83:11 93:8 vend 31:22 32:14

32:15 34:5,17 35:3 48:16 51:6 61:20 93:22 123:17 137:1,18 vended 31:3 35:22 vendible28:13

29:3,4 vending 1:3 4:12 9:5 11:15 13:2,4 13:10,12,13,14,16 13:17,18,19 14:5 14:11 16:18 17:5 18:21 19:13 21:3 22:2,18 28:6,8,14 28:19,22 29:5,9 30:1,2,4,7,8,14 31:20 32:11,15,19 33:18 34:10,13,16 34:17 35:2 36:3,8 46:22 50:22 52:12 55:10 56:10,13 57:10 67:12,13 87:19 91:15 93:21 94:3,6,14,16,18 95:12,16 105:9 106:13,14 110:21 111:1 112:8,10,12 113:22 117:3,4 123:19 127:9,13 128:10 129:2 130:11 131:8,12 131:18 133:14 134:9 135:1,7,10 135:14,15 136:13 136:15,15,22 137:2,16,19 139:13 145:10 152:15,16 157:3 162:3 vending-only 107:15 Vendors 1:22

63:11 verbiage51:11 verification49:14

50:9 129:6 142:15 149:3,7 150:11 153:1 159:15 161:21 162:9 verify49:20 142:8 149:6 150:13,16 159:18,20 160:9 162:5,21 163:4 version 17:21,22202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. 

### Page 190 19:1 37:4 versus 52:12 110:14 143:11,13 vertical 31:10,17

52:12 vertically46:16 view 110:17 166:13 views 140:20 virtually 93:19 visible43:11 106:9 168:11 volume 14:10 17:17 18:13 19:3 19:12,17,20 20:4 20:12,16 28:12 29:2,4 35:16 47:1 47:3,14 volumes 13:19

30:10 voluntary23:4 W wait 158:1 waiting26:11 waiver67:18 77:12 waivers74:19 walk 106:9 167:19 walking 135:19 144:3 want23:17 51:16

66:14 74:19 75:11 75:15 85:7 98:20 100:4 121:14 127:4 133:21 136:18 137:18 142:19 148:10 150:14 159:21 wanted28:2 81:21 119:4 120:4 129:8 wants 100:6 warm 163:5 warmer70:19 warranted78:22 Washington 1:11

4:14 wasn't 121:6 water35:21 wattage97:5 way 10:11 23:1 40:10 51:16 52:3 58:13 59:2 62:13 62:21 64:18 68:7 68:7 70:7,10 71:15 83:4 89:9 89:10 90:21 98:6 118:16 133:1,20 135:7 140:18 143:1 155:18 158:6 159:12,18 159:19 160:6,9,21 164:15,20 165:3 167:21 168:6 ways 34:9 57:13

59:2 63:15 111:6 132:16 we're20:17 We've 107:19 wear 106:8 weather91:20 webcast 10:16 Weber2:14 6:21

6:21 webinar 10:3,7

85:12 welcome 3:9 4:5,9

5:2,12 10:3 100:9 140:20 144:16 welcoming4:18 well-understood 10:18 went 106:21 135:3 141:22 169:5 weren't 163:8 Whitehouse7:16 wholesale 140:12 Wi-Fi 103:9 Widder2:15 3:17

3:20 7:7,7 15:8,16 20:17 22:15 24:10 25:2 28:1 30:17 36:14 37:21 41:14 41:18 42:1,6,10 42:21 43:3,18 45:3 51:10 52:14 53:15,20 54:19 55:6 56:1,4 57:4 59:5 60:11 64:2 65:14 67:2 70:20 72:2,10 73:5 75:7 76:1 77:22 79:6 79:20 80:12 82:16 83:1,9 84:15 86:2 86:6 87:3,11,17 87:22 88:9 95:22 96:8 97:18 98:7 99:4,11,14 100:3 100:12,22 101:8 101:17,20 102:10 107:16 108:7 111:14 116:15 117:5 118:4 121:1 121:12 122:13 123:13 124:7 130:2 136:9,17,22 138:2,5 141:12 143:15 145:15 146:12 149:1 155:12 156:11,18 158:11 159:2,13 161:19 163:7,13 163:15,20 165:10 165:16 167:4 wide 60:2 104:8 111:5 117:18 118:11 122:7 widely 123:15 125:4 150:4 Williams 2:17 6:11

6:11 62:11,11 84:8 161:8,8 willing 60:19 121:6 Wilson 162:15 165:12 winter 89:1 wire56:9,11,18 wired96:13 97:1 wish 8:8,19 26:13

33:3 63:4 wishes 8:7 32:14 wondering 107:13 111:11 136:14 word 61:8 82:21 115:8 151:11 163:6 words 61:18 72:21

82:19 123:7 129:5 155:14 work4:21 5:19

44:16 61:2 117:21 159:7,10,11,17 160:5 workable 161:16 161:18 working5:18 71:16 works 63:5 158:21 159:6 worms 117:15 worry 129:5 worst23:21 24:3,7

24:9,12 63:15 worth49:12 50:6

77:3 98:16 wouldn't59:3

61:18 126:7 139:2 162:4 164:18 write58:17 142:5 written 10:11

20:17 37:21 43:19 59:11 66:21 111:17 151:7 160:22 161:4 167:17 wrong96:10 121:5 wrote92:7,10 X Y yards 168:5 year44:10 years 12:15 100:18 yellow48:15 49:15 Young2:18 7:9,11 Z Zakarian55:4

107:9,13 111:11 zero 134:22 143:19 zone47:3,15 51:2 zone-cooled45:16 48:21 0 019 1:11 1 1 38:17 39:10,21

45:14 67:7,9 69:13 70:2 76:12 1:15 168:22 169:3 1047:6 48:20,22

49:8 51:5 53:12 53:17 97:12 98:3 155:3 10:00 151:17 10:30 8:13 10:45 8:13 10022:20 168:5 1000 1:11 11 3:14 16:20 11:00 106:15,16,21 11:12 106:22 11:55 8:20 12 34:20 143:6 12-hour 134:21 12-ounce 33:22

34:2,17,17 12:15 168:2 12:17 169:5 121 3:20 13 10:21 15 3:17 97:12 16 1:8 16th4:13 18 131:11 134:22

135:21,22 137:20 141:11,15 143:5 143:16 145:13 146:5 152:17 18-hour 133:14

134:9 1975 11:6 2 2 152:4 2-hour 150:22 152:3 163:1 2.4 155:3202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. 

### Page 191 20 98:2 20-ounce 34:11,14

34:14,21 2004 14:10 17:16 19:1,19 2006 14:1,1 17:15 18:14 2008 17:22 2009 13:8 18:8

21:11 120:2,7,11 124:3 2010 17:21 37:4 2013 54:5 2014 1:8 4:13 24 131:14,21,22 135:22 143:21 157:5 24-hour 132:1 134:7 136:6 24/7 111:1 3 3 37:1 155:4 30 14:16 17:7 74:8 111:22 119:20 32.1 6:8 17:16,20

21:6 22:10 26:19 26:21 27:4 37:2 38:13 41:20 68:22 32.1-2004 14:4 32.1-2010 19:15

20:9 35 38:22 39:10

75:22 154:21 36 38:16 39:10

45:14 67:6,9 69:13 70:1,19 71:6,9 72:6,9,16 75:17,19 76:4,6,8 76:10,10,12 77:2 77:19 79:11,15 81:1,7 82:7,9,20 84:11,13 131:8 151:5 152:4 153:7 154:20 158:10 163:1,2 37 38:22 39:10 39 154:20 4 4 3:11 19:2 4043:11 71:19

72:16 82:19 151:2 151:3,5,6 153:5,7 153:17 154:20 158:9 162:22 44 65:6 45 21:13 78:12 5 5 19:2 21:4 33:20 50 22:20 62:14,15

62:15 79:18 50-50 35:21 54 107:3 6 6 19:2 131:13

141:16 143:6,16 146:6 6-hour 133:14

134:9 149:16 64 156:7 65 21:4 67 167:1 68 167:1 7 7.2.2.2 68:19 72 69:6 75 21:12,15,19 23:2

24:15,21 25:5 52:20 154:20,20 8 8 13:22 85 24:19 9NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com C E R T I F I C A T E

This is to certify that the foregoing transcript

In the matter of:

Before:

Date:

Place:

was duly recorded and accurately transcribed under my direction; further, that said transcript is a true and accurate record of the proceedings.

----------------------- Court Reporter 192

Refrigerated Beverage Vending Notice of Proposed Rulemaking

US DOE

09-16-14

Washington, DC