rUNITED STATES OF AMERICA 

DEPARTMENT OF TRANSPORTATION 

OFFICE OF HEARINGS 

WASHINGTON, D.C. 

IN THE MATTER OF 

PRECISION DISPLAYS AND TOOLS 

FAA DOCKET NO. CP09AL0008 

(Civil Penalty Action) 

DMS NO. FAA-2009-0733 

EIVED 

SEP 11201 0 

HtAWNQ DOCKET 

Tuesday, August 17, 2010 

9:00 a.m. 

Phillip Burton United States 

Courthouse and Federal Building 

450 Golden Gate Avenue 

Tax Courtroom 2-1350 

San Francisco, California 94102 

BEFORE 

THE HONORABLE RICHARD C. GOODWIN, 

U.S. ADMINISTRATIVE LAW JUDGE 

Office of Hearings, M-20 

U.S. Department of Transportation 

12 00 New Jersey Avenue, S.E. 

East Building Ground Floor, Room E12-320 

Washington, D.C. 20590 

202-366-2139, Attorney-Advisor 

202-366-5121, Legal Assistant 

202-366-7536, Fax 

(202) 234-4433 

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COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

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APPEARANCES: 

From Complainant Federal 

Aviation Administration: 

CRAIG BLACK, Attorney 

Federal Aviation Administration 

Regional Counsel, Office of the 

Regional Counsel, AAL-7 

Alaskan Region 

222 West Seventh Avenue, Box 14 

Anchorage, Alaska 99513-7587 

Telephone: 907-271-5269 

Fax: 907-271-2800 

For the Respondent: 

ROBERT PERSEKIAN, Owner, i n pr o pe r 

Precision Displays and Tools 

1555 Alum Rock Avenue, Suite 20 

San Jose, California 95116 

Telephone: 408-504-2515 

n 

(202) 234-4433 

NEAL R. GROSS 

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 
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P-R-0-C-E-E-D-I-N-G-S 

(9:03 a.m.) 

JUDGE GOODWIN: Let's go on the 

record, 

Counsel, do you want to identify 

yourself for the record, please? 

MR. BLACK: Yes. My name is Craig 

Black with the Agency. 

JUDGE GOODWIN: And, sir, just for 

the record, would you identify yourself. 

please? 

MR. PERSEKIAN: Robert Persekian, 

JUDGE GOODWIN: All right. I love 

working for the Government, the pens never 

work. And I've got one. That's why they put 

a bunch of them up here. 

MR. PERSEKIAN: I understand. 

JUDGE GOODWIN: Please be seated. 

MR. PERSEKIAN: Thank you. 

JUDGE GOODWIN: It's also why I 

bring my own pens. 

Robert, would you please spell 

NEAL R. GROSS 

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

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your last name for me? 

MR. PERSEKIAN: It's P-e-r-s-e-ki-a-n. 

JUDGE GOODWIN: Now refresh my 

recollection. I have a friend who does this 

all the time, -i-a-n --

MR. PERSEKIAN: Armenian. 

JUDGE GOODWIN: Armenian. And the 

- 1 -

Armenian, 

there's another one that's not 

MR. PERSEKIAN: Sometimes there's 

some Persian names 

JUDGE GOODWIN: Okay. 

MR. PERSEKIAN; that are --

that are similar. And that's one of the 

issues -- one of the problems we have to face 

when the Iranian revolution --

JUDGE GOODWIN: Right. 

MR. PERSEKIAN: — happened. And 

they have lots of -i-a-n-s. 

JUDGE GOODWIN: Right. 

MR. PERSEKIAN: And we were mixed 

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up. But anybody who is Armenian ends with -ia-n. 

JUDGE GOODWIN: Okay. 

MR. PERSEKIAN: And it means 

"the, " because Armenian names came from trades 

like the blacksmith, --

JUDGE GOODWIN; Right Okay, 

gotcha 

MR. PERSEKIAN: -- the goldsmith. 

the baker, you know, small villages. 

JUDGE GOODWIN: Right, um-hum. 

"the." 

MR. PERSEKIAN: And -i-a-n means 

JUDGE GOODWIN: Okay. T-h-e. 

MR. PERSEKIAN: T-h-e. 

JUDGE GOODWIN: Okay. This is not 

related to the case, but I live in Fresno. 

MR. PERSEKIAN: Oh, you do? 

JUDGE GOODWIN: Yeah. So --

of us? 

MR. PERSEKIAN: So you know a lot 

JUDGE GOODWIN: I know a lot of --

(202) 234-4433 

NEAL R. GROSS 

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

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and when I was in high school one of my good 

friends was Armenian. 

MR. PERSEKIAN: Uh-huh. 

JUDGE GOODWIN: And it was — his 

wife's name was Patek. 

MR. PERSEKIAN: Um-hum. 

JUDGE GOODWIN: But we were close 

friends for -- all through high school. 

MR. PERSEKIAN: All right. 

JUDGE GOODWIN: So I've been --

MR. PERSEKIAN: All right. 

JUDGE GOODWIN: -- quite familiar. 

MR. PERSEKIAN: Um-hum. 

JUDGE GOODWIN: Yes, in the --

MR. PERSEKIAN: Um-hum. That --

JUDGE GOODWIN: And, Mr. Black, 

this isn't related to the --

MR. PERSEKIAN: Um-hum. 

JUDGE GOODWIN: — case, but in --

MR. PERSEKIAN: Um-huh. 

JUDGE GOODWIN: in Fresno, 

they'l l pronouncing their last name, and 

(202) 234-4433 

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they'll say it's i-a-n, or it's --

MR. PERSEKIAN: Right. 

JUDGE GOODWIN: And — 

MR. PERSEKIAN: Or sometimes they 

put -- put the "y." 

JUDGE GOODWIN: Okay. 

MR. PERSEKIAN: And the reason why 

Fresno is -- after the massacre of 1915 --

JUDGE GOODWIN: Right. 

MR. PERSEKIAN; the only thing 

they could do is work in agriculture. 

JUDGE GOODWIN: Right. Well, no, 

MR. PERSEKIAN: And that's why 

they moved to Fresno. 

JUDGE GOODWIN: And the history of 

Fresno is that about the same time the 

Armenians moved to the Central Valley, there 

was a huge influx of Japanese, which surprised 

me, both of whom came there for the farming. 

MR. PERSEKIAN: Right. 

JUDGE GOODWIN; And some of the 

(202) 234-4433 

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major farms in the Central Valley are owned 

either by Armenians or by the Japanese. 

MR. PERSEKIAN: Um-hum, um-hiom. 

But we have the big celebration once a year, 

the Blessing of the Wine. 

JUDGE GOODWIN: Yes. 

MR. PERSEKIAN; That it's a 

tradition to go to every year. And a lot of 

us will not eat grapes until after the 

blessing. 

JUDGE GOODWIN: Right. See, Mr. 

Black, the trip was worth it. 

Okay. I had issued an order, the 

date of which I'll -- apparently in early 

August, finding that the -- well, which is 

self-explanatory. So we're here on sanctions. 

So, Mr. Black, do you want to 

proceed first? 

MR. BLACK: Sure, Your Honor. If 

I may remain seated, if that's all right 

JUDGE GOODWIN: Yes. 

MR. BLACK: — with you? 

NEAL R. GROSS 

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JUDGE GOODWIN: Sure. 

MR. BLACK: Yes, your order of 

August 4th established each of the 18 

violations that we've alleged in this case. 

So I would like to present to you the Agency's 

position on why we've gone out for a civil 

penalty in this case of $20,000. 

JUDGE GOODWIN: Okay. 

MR. BLACK: I did -- in our office 

we typically coordinate those decisions with 

our inspectors who have done the 

investigation. In this case that was Special 

Agent Jeffrey Deitz, is his name. 

And if at any point during this 

hearing you have questions that you think 

might be best directed to him, he is available 

by telephone in Anchorage. He did not travel 

for this hearing. But I wanted to make that 

offer if it becomes helpful. 

JUDGE GOODWIN: Okay. Well, we'll 

see what happens. 

And what we're going to do, Mr. 

(202) 234-4433 

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Persekian, I'll allow Mr. Black to present. 

And then I'll allow you to present any 

evidence that you want to. 

MR. PERSEKIAN: Thank you, sir. 

JUDGE GOODWIN: Okay. Go ahead, 

Mr. Black. 

MR. BLACK: I have provided Mr. 

Persekian today with a copy of our Primary 

Guidance for determining sanction amounts. 

That is Appendix C of FAA Order 2150.3B. That 

is our Sanction Guidance for hazardous 

materials cases like this. 

And so I'll be referring to 

elements of that appendix as we go -- as I go 

forward. 

In this case the Judge has found 

that there were 18 violations. For our 

purposes today they essentially fall into five 

violation categories. There were 12 

violations for failing to properly prepare 

shipping papers. That's in Subpart C of the 

Hazardous Materials Regulations. 

(202) 234-4433 

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There were two violations for 

marking, one for labeling, one for failure to 

provide an emergency response telephone 

n\mber, and two for failure to properly train 

employees in Hazardous Materials 

Transportation Regulations. But ultimately 

the 18 violations fall into those five 

categories 

In coming up with the $20,000 

figure, the Agency did an analysis of the 

nature of this particular violation. Precision 

Displays' degree of culpability, other factors 

that play in such as the nature of the 

shipment and the quantity of materials that 

were shipped in violation, the type of 

business that Precision Displays is, and an 

attempt by us to determine Precision Displays' 

ability to pay. 

As we go through the Appendix C, 

one thing we -- that is clear is that the 

Agency has an obligation to determine what we 

call the weight of the hazardous materials 

(202) 234-4433 

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shipment 

And in this case, we decided that 

it wasn't a minimal case; it wasn't a maximum 

case. This was a moderate case. And that is 

based on an analysis of the nature of the 

shipment and the other factors that I've just 

outlined. 

Here we have relatively small 

quantities, but significant quantities. We 

have thinner, paint thinner, and stain that 

were shipped. These items are easily ignited 

by heat, sparks, and flame and present obvious 

and clear dangers, when -- if they are a 

ignited aboard an aircraft. 

The adhesive and the spray paint 

are both aerosols. They are prone to 

exploding, exploding or rupturing from heat or 

sudden temperature change. In a -- in a 

plane, each of those three items can cause a 

catastrophic danger. 

And the failure of Precision 

Displays to alert Alaska Airlines to the 

(202) 234-4433 

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presence of those materials posed a 

significant harm to that flight that day in 

May of '08 

Furthermore, the failure of 

Precision Displays to identify these materials 

to Alaska Airlines increases the likelihood or 

probability of an incident. 

Now as we look at the risk 

categories in Figure C2 of Appendix C -- and 

I should add that we would hope that the --

that the Judge would take administrative 

notice of the entire order, 2150.3B. 

JUDGE GOODWIN; Yeah, I've had 

this discussion with Mr. Morris. My position 

is that upon request I will take judicial 

notice of things that are in the Regulations. 

The standard, Mr. Persekian, for 

taking judicial notice is, if it's information 

that's in the public realm, for instance, if 

Mr. Black asked me to take judicial notice of 

the fact that San Francisco was in California 

that's a matter that's within the general 

(202) 234-4433 

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knowledge, Within the area of the law. 

regulations, laws, statutes, are all publicly 

available. 

And the other reason I do it is a 

lot of the things that the FAA has are quite 

thick, several inches. So rather than filling 

my drawers up in my office full of 

regulations, which may be hundreds of pages 

long, I take judicial notice. And I would do 

the same in your case. It simplifies the 

proceedings. 

And Mr. Morris, inspite of the 

fact that we've had discussions over two 

years, likes to file the motion asking me to 

take judicial notice. And I told him if I 

were him I'd file the same motion, knowing the 

Judge is still going to grant it. 

But in your case I will take 

judicial notice of the statute. And what we 

do, sir, is I look at the statute applicable 

at the time of the incident. You know, the 

Government is always changing things. And we 

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look at the applicable statute. 

In that way, Mr. Black doesn't 

have to be concerned about going to the plane, 

grabbing the wrong version of the statute. We 

look it up on the internet. 

So, Mr. Black? 

MR. BLACK: Very good. Thank you. 

Your Honor 

Another in determining the 

civil penalty in this case, we also looked at 

what risk categories the items that were 

shipped fall into. Here, the thinner, the 

adhesive, and the spray paint are all risk 

Category A items entitled to a maximiom weight. 

These are items that can have a catastrophic 

effect on the aircraft's ability to continue 

safe flight. 

The fourth item, the stain, is not 

categorized as a maximum-risk category. It 

falls into the moderate-risk category. 

Category B, because it does not pose imminent 

threat of flight -- an imminent threat to 

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flight safety, but it can cause death or 

injury if it's released. And it can also 

damage aircraft over time causing risk further 

down the road to folks on the plane and people 

on the ground beneath the plane. 

So those were the risk categories 

for the four items. Three of them were in the 

Risk Category A, and then the fourth item, the 

stain, is in Risk Category B. 

Now we looked at other factors 

that have -- that impact the weight of these 

offenses. As I noted a moment ago, these were 

relatively small quantities of hazardous 

materials. We had a 32-ounce can of the 

thinner, 16-ounce can of the stain, three 

16-ounce cans of the spray adhesive, and two 

12-ounce cans of spray paint. 

I suppose, put together, there 

might be a half a gallon or, you know, close 

to a gallon there, somewhere in that 

neighborhood. Not tremendous quantities, but 

not negligible either. 

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The Agency considered that through 

the course of its investigation, Mr. 

Persekian, on behalf of the company has 

accepted responsibility for these violations. 

He's indicated, and we accept, that they were 

not deliberate violations, that they were 

contrary to the company policy of Precision 

Displays, which was not to ship Hazmat. And 

we also note that Precision Displays has no 

prior history of violations. 

So once we looked at all of those 

factors, we had an obligation under the order 

to determine the overall weight of this 

violation. And we determined that it was of 

moderate weight. 

Although the hazardous materials 

themselves are generally maximum weight items, 

the other factors that we've identified 

mitigated that down somewhat, and we went --

decided that this is a moderate violation. 

Having determined that, we then 

looked at Gate- -- at the Matrix CI of Order 

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21503b, 

And in the version I provided to 

you, Mr. Persekian, that we spoke about 

earlier, it's on page 12 of the order of 

Appendix C. 

The first thing we did in this --

in analyzing this matrix is figuring out what 

source of offense category this was. This is 

a Category 2 violation on that -- on that 

matrix. This was an undeclared shipment. The 

items themselves were within quantity limits, 

which indicates that these items could have 

been safely shipped had Precision Displays 

done its job properly. They did not do so. 

We then analyzed what sort of 

violator committed this violation. And for 

business there are three possible categories: 

Column B, Column C, and Column D. Column D is 

really for manufacturers or people that are --

or companies that are in the business of 

transporting hazardous materials, offering 

them, accepting them. That's not appropriate 

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for Precision Displays. 

We also determined that although 

Precision Displays likely comes into contact 

with these sorts of hazardous materials in the 

course of their routine business, we weren't 

able to establish that conclusively. 

And so we decided to treat 

Precision Displays and Tools as the -- at the 

lowest end of the business scale. That would 

be Column B, as simply a mere business entity. 

So if you combined the row and 

column that we identified for Figure CI in the 

order, that provides a range of penalties for 

each of the categories of violations between 

$1,500 and $8,200. 

Now in this case, since there were 

five of violation categories, we looked at 

that range. And the midpoint of that range is 

about $4400, I believe, somewhere in that 

neighborhood. 

We reduced it again down $4,000, 

simply because we did not feel we needed to go 

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all the way to the midpoint of the range in 

this case, given the small quantities and 

Precision Displays' attitude in accepting 

responsibility. 

We ultimately determined that each 

of the violation categories merited a sanction 

of $4,000 each. Four thousand dollars times 

five violation categories equals $20,000. So 

that is the final figure that we have 

requested in this matter. 

It reflects the nature of gravity 

and extent of the violations. It acknowledges 

Precision Displays' degree of culpability, 

their lack of any prior violation history, and 

our attempts to access their ability to pay. 

I must note that we were a bit 

frustrated in this case trying to assess the 

company's ability to pay. And I'm sure Mr. 

Persekian will want to speak on that point. 

We served discovery on Precision 

Displays in May. This is the same discovery 

that resulted in the Court's order of August 

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4th, 

In that discovery were requests 

about whether Precision Displays anticipated 

presenting ability to pay. Concerns, we 

requested documents related to ability to pay. 

We did not receive much. We did receive some 

materials on July 29th. But nothing was 

specific to Precision Displays. 

We received tax returns from Mr. 

Persekian and his wife for the past two years. 

We received a tax return for a company called 

Mayolo, Inc. And we do not know what the 

relationship to Mayolo, Inc. is to this case. 

We also received a number of 

demand letters from creditors of Precision 

Displays relatively recent, demand letters 

within the past year, demanding that Precision 

Displays pay various debts that they had 

accumulated. 

But on balance there wasn't 

anything that actually informed us about the 

company's actual ability to pay. And I'd 

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like to reserve the opportunity to address any 

of those issues that Mr. Persekian brings up. 

I'd like to note for the record 

that in at least two FAA orders, the Hampton 

Air Services order and in the order In the 

Matter of Guiffrida, and I believe that's 

spelled G-u-i-f-f-r-i-d-a, Matter of 

Guiffrida, which is FAA Order 1992-72. It's 

the obligation of the respondent to show that 

it does not have the ability to pay the 

proposed violation. It is not the Agency's 

burden. 

And so in the end, given the 

moderate weight of the shipment, finding of 

the nature of Precision Displays' business, 

that it's a mere -- that it is a business, but 

it's not necessarily in the business of 

handling, or shipping, or transporting 

hazardous materials, given the five violation 

categories found in the Court's order of 

August 4th, and our assessment that a penalty 

of between 1,500 and 8200 per violation 

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warrants a penalty of $4,000-per-violation 

category, the Agency submits that the Court 

should order a civil penalty in the amount of 

$20,000. 

JUDGE GOODWIN: Okay. What I'm 

going to do is I'm going to allow Mr. 

Persekian to present some evidence. 

Mr. Persekian, it's going to take 

me a while to generate a decision just because 

of my schedule. 

And if after this hearing, Mr. 

Black, you and Mr. Persekian want to continue 

to talk and you reach a settlement, don't feel 

that you need to wait for me to issue an 

opinion. 

You're not going to hurt my 

feelings if sometime between now and I get 

around to doing a decision that I get an email 

from one of you saying: We've settled the 

case. 

All right? 

So anything further, Mr. Black, 

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MR. BLACK: Nothing further. Your 

Honor, 

JUDGE GOODWIN: Okay. Mr. 

Persekian, it would be helpful to the Court if 

you'd just give me a -- and if you have -- you 

have trouble hearing, I can understand that. 

I've got a hearing disability. In the wrong 

courtroom I can't hear anything. I can't 

always hear well. 

Tell me something about the 

company and your relationship to the company? 

MR. PERSEKIAN: Yes, sir, 

Precision Displays is a company for building 

fixtures. We do rate them commercial 

fixtures. This is our family business that we 

inherited from our parents. And we learned --

I learned that trade back in Israel, where I 

come from, from my father. 

I started this business in 1990 

when I moved to the U.S We started the 

operation in 1991. As a business, we Started 

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small, and we started growing as we need. The 

nature of the business requires constant 

supervision. 

And my way of doing business was 

hands-on all the time. And I was controlling 

every decision and every movement in the 

company. Whatever it is, I was -- I had the 

final say in it. 

Beginning 2008 my daughter was 

diagnosed with brain cancer. That changed our 

life completely. And the same year I had a 

gas explosion and burnt my body. And I spent 

a lot of months in San Diego State University 

Burn Center where I underwent constructive 

surgeries on my body. 

JUDGE GOODWIN: You did? 

MR. PERSEKIAN: I did. 

JUDGE GOODWIN: Were you the one 

who was burned, then? 

MR. PERSEKIAN: Yes 

JUDGE GOODWIN: Oh, okay. I'm 

sorry. 

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MR. PERSEKIAN: And I was — 

JUDGE GOODWIN: So it was -- this 

is the same time that your daughter's brain 

cancer --

MR. PERSEKIAN: My daughter was 

diagnosed with brain surgery [sic] the 

beginning of the year. Later in the year I 

got burned. I was bedridden for months. And 

I have the reports to show on that. I had to 

go two major surgeries. And I had a very big 

chance of losing my legs. 

Now during that period, I couldn't 

do my job the way I do it controlling the 

company. So during that period we had a job 

coming on in Alaska. And one of my associates 

went to Alaska to bring back our tools. 

JUDGE GOODWIN: Right 

MR. PERSEKIAN: He hired 

somehow they put the tools together. And 

these cans that Mr. Black is talking about had 

very small amounts of material in them. Hence 

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JUDGE GOODWIN: Right. 

MR. PERSEKIAN: -- our policy and 

the instructions that were given to this 

person who went, anything that is hazardous, 

anything that could be a problem, keep it 

there, give it away, make sure it doesn't go 

on the plane. 

I was in my bed, unable to move. 

And I made the call. I told him: Please, 

make sure nothing happens. We don't have any 

problems. We've been doing this thing for so 

many years And once I was supervising 

everything, nothing ever happened. And the --

JUDGE GOODWIN: Right. 

MR. PERSEKIAN: -- record shows 

that 

He went there and said: Okay, 

okay, okay. Everything will be fine. He came 

back: Everything okay? Everything okay. 

Now on the forms that we fill up 

for the airlines, we always put the phone 

number as a contact number. That's a 

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JUDGE GOODWIN: Right. 

MR. PERSEKIAN: We do it all the 

time. When he came back, everything is okay, 

everything is fine, nothing. My daughter was 

doing a CAT scan for her head. 

And I get a call from the FAA 

saying: You shipped hazardous material. And 

all that was the first time I ever knew 

about it. 

I said; I have no idea what 

you're talking about. So this thing developed 

later on. The FAA have been very gracious to 

understand my position and to work with me to 

postpone this thing. 

JUDGE GOODWIN: Um-hum. 

MR, PERSEKIAN; Because my 

daughter's situation was deteriorating. And 

the tumor on her brain was getting bigger. 

And my situation in the hospital was getting 

worse. I was out of the hospital the 

beginning of the year. 

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would be in '09? 

MR. PERSEKIAN: '09. 

JUDGE GOODWIN: '09, okay. 

MR. PERSEKIAN: But the tumor that 

my daughter had was getting bigger and growing 

until finally they decided they want to do 

surgery on her, All '09 I couldn't 

concentrate on doing anything. 

First of all, my situation, the 

therapies I'm going through, my daughter's 

situation. And I had an experience in my 

family as I lost my father to a surgery. So 

that gave me -- bottom line, I was scared for 

my daughter. 

JUDGE GOODWIN: Right. 

MR. PERSEKIAN: So to me working 

was not important. What was important for me 

is my daughter, my family, to make sure she's 

safe. She passed surgery October of '09. 

They were able to take out the tumor. And 

she's still going through revisions and 

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of '09? 

JUDGE GOODWIN: So it was October 

MR. PERSEKIAN: October of '09 she 

passed -- she made surgery --

JUDGE GOODWIN: Okay. Fine 

MR. PERSEKIAN: — in San 

Francisco 

JUDGE GOODWIN: Right. 

MR. PERSEKIAN: But all this time 

we were -- every couple of weeks we had 

another doctor, --

JUDGE GOODWIN: Right. 

MR. PERSEKIAN: -- another visit, 

another exam, another thing, another. So all 

the year I could not work. 

JUDGE GOODWIN: Right. 

MR. PERSEKIAN: Not that I could 

not work. Physically, my body would not allow 

me to work. And now she's still going through 

in therapies. Myself, because of the accident 

I had, and my burned leg -- and I can show you 

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my legs, if you like? 

JUDGE GOODWIN: I take your word 

for it 

MR. PERSEKIAN: --m y ability to 

work went down. 

JUDGE GOODWIN: Right. 

MR. PERSEKIAN: So we were hit by 

the economy. I was hit by my accident. I was 

hit by my daughter. And so everything came at 

the same time. Income definitely went down to 

a trickle. Expenses are the same. Everything 

went down, which means I got behind on 

payments. 

Now I'm trying to get back on my 

feet, slowly, slowly. My ability to work is 

getting better every day. And I'm hoping in 

no time I get back to what I used to be like. 

Since I started the company till 

'08 I had excellent credit. Every year I was 

increasing sales. I was able to afford a lot 

of things. '08 was a bad year. We got hit. 

We went down. I mean, all I'm looking for is 

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JUDGE GOODWIN: Let me go back to 

the -- now you say you started the company in 

Armenia? 

MR. PERSEKIAN: In Israel. 

JUDGE GOODWIN: In --

MR. PERSEKIAN: No. The company 

was started by my parents. 

JUDGE GOODWIN: Okay. 

MR. PERSEKIAN: Not the company — 

JUDGE GOODWIN: That -- okay. 

MR. PERSEKIAN: -- that trades. 

JUDGE GOODWIN: Right, okay. 

MR. PERSEKIAN: I started my 

company here in the U.S. when I moved to the 

U.S 

that? 

JUDGE GOODWIN: Okay. When was 

MR. PERSEKIAN: 1990. 

JUDGE GOODWIN: Okay, And you say 

you do fixtures. And it's a -- what do you 

mean by fixtures? I --

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MR. PERSEKIAN: Showcases 

JUDGE GOODWIN: Okay. 

MR. PERSEKIAN: Like we build 

stores. Jewelry stores, clothing stores, --

JUDGE GOODWIN: Okay. 

MR. PERSEKIAN: — gift stores, 

stuff like that. It so happened -- we had a 

good market in Alaska. 

JUDGE GOODWIN: Right. 

MR. PERSEKIAN: And every year we 

go to Alaska. And we do the work. We take 

our tools. By the end of the season, we put 

them on the plane. We send them back. We do 

it every year. 

JUDGE GOODWIN: Right. 

MR. PERSEKIAN: And every year we 

have zero problems, because I personally go 

there. And I supervise, and I check every 

single item before it goes on the plane, 

because I trust nobody. 

JUDGE GOODWIN: Right 

MR. PERSEKIAN: When this 

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happened, I was in the hospital --

understand. 

JUDGE GOODWIN; 

MR. PERSEKIAN; 

Right, 

-- in bed. 

could not do anything. 

JUDGE GOODWIN: Right. Now do you 

have tax returns that show what your -- has 

happened to your income since -- for like '07, 

'08, '09? 

MR. PERSEKIAN: Yes. And I sent a 

copy to Mr. Black. 

JUDGE GOODWIN: Okay. Did you get 

this, Mr. Black? 

MR. BLACK: What I have -- yes. 

Your Honor, I have -- I have tax returns for 

basically three -- well, I have an individual 

return for Mr. Persekian and Maria Valencia --

Is this your wife? 

MR. PERSEKIAN: Yes. 

MR. BLACK: Thank you. 

-- for 2009 and for 2008, I 

believe. 

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JUDGE GOODWIN: While he's doing 

that, Mr. Persekian, the company that you 

operate, is it a corporation, a sole 

proprietorship, a partnership? 

MR. PERSEKIAN; Now it's 

corporation. At that time it was -- it was a 

corporation, I think, to the best of my --

JUDGE GOODWIN: Okay. 

MR. PERSEKIAN; 

really don't handle this. 

-- memory. 

JUDGE GOODWIN: Right, I 

understand. Do the tax returns indicate 

whether it's a corporation, or a sole 

proprietorship, or some variation thereof? 

MR. BLACK: Not that I was able to 

determine, Your Honor. 

JUDGE GOODWIN: Okay. 

MR. BLACK: The other item that we 

have is we have an S Corporation return for 

2009 for an entity known as Mayolo, Inc. 

JUDGE GOODWIN; What's Mayolo, 

Inc.? 

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MR. PERSEKIAN: Mayolo, Inc. is 

the corporation. And Precision was working 

under Mayolo, Inc. --

JUDGE GOODWIN: Okay. 

MR. PERSEKIAN; as the 

corporation. 

THE REPORTER: Can you spell that? 

MR. PERSEKIAN: I'm sorry? 

THE REPORTER: Can you spell that. 

please? 

MR. PERSEKIAN: Which one? 

JUDGE GOODWIN: Mayolo. 

MR. PERSEKIAN: Mayolo? 

THE REPORTER: Yes. 

MR. PERSEKIAN: M-a-y-o-l-O-S. 

MS. SPEAKER: Thank you. 

MR. PERSEKIAN: Sure. 

MR. BLACK: I'm sorry. Is it --

on the docioments I'm seeing, it's M-a-y-o-l-o, 

without an s. 

THE REPORTER: Okay. 

MR. PERSEKIAN: Mayolo. 

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MR. BLACK: Okay. 

JUDGE GOODWIN: Thank you. 

So that's the corporation under 

which Precision Displays operates? 

MR. PERSEKIAN: Yes, sir. 

JUDGE GOODWIN: Okay. 

And to the best of your knowledge, 

are they both Subchapter S corporations? 

MR. PERSEKIAN: I have no idea. 

JUDGE GOODWIN: Okay. 

MR. BLACK: Your Honor, --

MR. PERSEKIAN: I'm just -- I'm --

MR. BLACK: Your Honor, — 

JUDGE GOODWIN: That's why you 

have a lav^yer, right? 

MR. PERSEKIAN: I mean I'm just a 

simple guy who --

JUDGE GOODWIN: I understand. 

MR. PERSEKIAN: -- goes to work 

every day and goes home every day. That's --

JUDGE GOODWIN: I under — 

MR. PERSEKIAN: That's — 

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JUDGE GOODWIN: I understand, 

MR. PERSEKIAN: -- that's all I 

know. 

JUDGE GOODWIN: Yeah. 

MR. BLACK: I do show that in the 

tax return for Mayolo, it indicates it's an S 

corporation. And for 2009, I believe this is, 

it had gross receipts of -- aggregate gross 

receipts of $910,000 and 59 -- 9- — 910,059. 

JUDGE GOODWIN: But that's gross? 

MR. BLACK: Right. 

JUDGE GOODWIN: Right. 

MR. BLACK: I mean we are just 

trying to assess the --

JUDGE GOODWIN; Right, I 

understand. 

business 

MR. BLACK: -- the scope of the 

JUDGE GOODWIN: Yeah, 

understand. What does it show for -- what do 

you -- do you have '09, '08, '07? 

MR. BLACK: I only have '09. 

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MR. PERSEKIAN: I think you have 

'08, too, to the best of my knowledge. 

(Pause in the proceedings.) 

MR. PERSEKIAN: It's '09. 

MR. BLACK: But that' s an 

individual return 

MR. PERSEKIAN: Oh, okay. You 

should have the book here. 

MR. BLACK: It's further down. 

MR. PERSEKIAN: See, I don't even 

know during these things. 

MR. BLACK: And just for the 

Court's benefit, what Mr. Persekian is doing 

is going through the documents that he sent us 

on -- in late July. We received them on July 

29th. It's tax returns for both himself, his 

wife, --

MR. PERSEKIAN: Yes. 

MR. BLACK: -- and the company. 

MR. PERSEKIAN: Isn't this '08? 

MR. BLACK: No, it's -- that's the 

'09. 

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MR. PERSEKIAN: Again? 

MR. BLACK: No, that's all there 

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MR. PERSEKIAN: No, I really don't 

understand these things. I just know how to 

make cabinets 

JUDGE GOODWIN: Right, --

MR. PERSEKIAN: That's — 

JUDGE GOODWIN: — I understand. 

MR. PERSEKIAN; that's --

that's all I know. 

JUDGE GOODWIN: What -- do you 

have an accountant or a lawyer, who -- who --

MR, PERSEKITUST; have an 

accountant. A lawyer, I can't afford one. 

JUDGE GOODWIN: Okay. But you 

have an accountant? 

MR. PERSEKIAN: I do. 

JUDGE GOODWIN: Would h e hav e 

copie s of you r ta x return s fo r th e las t - -

MR. PERSEKIAN: Of course , yes . 

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JUDGE GOODWIN: Okay. What I'd 

like you to do is give Mr. Black his name and 

address Here's the problem I have, Mr. 

Persekian. It appears obviously that you've 

been very honest and forthright with Mr. 

Black, 

The problem that the Agency and I 

both have is that Congress has a very narrow 

view of these cases. And the last time they 

had the opportunity to look at the sanctions 

involved in these cases they increased the 

fines. 

A lot of this goes back -- do you 

remember the Air Florida incident? The plane 

crashed after taking off. 

MR. PERSEKIAN: Right. 

JUDGE GOODWIN: And Congress takes 

these things very seriously. The problem I 

have is, unless you can show that you don't 

have the ability to pay, I may have to make a 

decision that from an equity standpoint, is it 

beneficial to you? But I can't do -- I can't 

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do equity. I do regulatory law. Equity is 

where you would go to a court and you'd argue, 

and the judge would, you know -- could make a 

decision based on a lot of the facts that 

you've talked to me about. 

What I'd like to do is have Mr. 

Black review the tax returns for ' 07, '08, 

and '09. I'm going to ask -- in a few minutes 

I'm going to ask you what kind of income 

you're making now. 

And I'm also going to ask, once 

you get the returns, to forward them to me. 

And I'm going to proceed in due course. If 

the two of you can resolve it, fine. If you 

can't, I'll make a decision based on the facts 

and the evidence. 

MR. PERSEKIAN: 

t 

Yeah. I mean. 

Your Honor, I understand what happened. 

JUDGE GOODWIN: Right. 

MR. PERSEKIAN: And I understand 

the gravity of what happened. And I feel very 

bad about what happened, because it shouldn't 

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have happened. This person should have been 

more careful. 

Well, I think you've been very --

it sounds to me like you've been very honest 

with Mr. Black. And you've certainly been 

very honest and forthright with me. And I 

appreciate that and I respect that. 

But what you've got to understand, 

as a regulatory judge, I've got a very narrow 

avenue of remedy, so to speak, what I can do. 

And it's incumbent upon you to 

demonstrate to the Court that you cannot 

afford to pay whatever it is Mr. Black is 

asking for. 

Now let me ask you this: You were 

-- you were in the hospital from sometime in 

'08. And if I remember what you said, you 

were finally released from the hospital in 

about '09? 

MR. PERSEKIAN: End of '08. 

JUDGE GOODWIN: Well, end of '08 

When were you released to go back to work? 

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whenever you can. 

JUDGE GOODWIN: So once you got 

out of the hospital, were you in therapy? 

MR. PERSEKIAN: Yes. 

JUDGE GOODWIN: How long were you 

in therapy, or are you still in therapy? 

MR. PERSEKIAN: To a certain point 

I'm in therapy. But my kind of therapy I 

don't need to go to a therapist. 

JUDGE GOODWIN: Okay. 

MR. PERSEKIAN: It's things I can 

do at home by myself. 

JUDGE GOODWIN: Okay, 

MR, PERSEKIAN; But have 

restrictions, like I'm not supposed to stand 

for too long. 

JUDGE GOODWIN: Okay. 

MR. PERSEKIAN: I'm not supposed 

to sit. I'm not supposed to drive. 

JUDGE GOODWIN: Right. 

MR. PERSEKIAN: And all kinds of 

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things. I need to keep massaging my feet 

every couple hours. 

JUDGE GOODWIN: Were the burns 

below your knees? 

MR. PERSEKIAN: The burns were 

from the ankle down. 

JUDGE GOODWIN: You mean from the 

knee down? 

down. 

MR. PERSEKIAN; From the knee 

JUDGE GOODWIN: Okay. And were 

they first, second, or third degree? 

MR. PERSEKIAN: Third. That's the 

worst, right? 

JUDGE GOODWIN: Right, yeah. 

MR. PERSEKIAN: Well, they did --

they did something called grafting --

JUDGE GOODWIN: Okay. 

MR. PERSEKIAN; - from the knees 

JUDGE GOODWIN: So as a result of 

your injuries, you've got restrictions --

well, to make a long story short, you have to 

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keep moving to keep your circulation going, 

which means you can't sit too long, you can't 

stand too long, you can't drive too long; is 

that correct? 

MR. PERSEKIAN: Yes, sir. 

JUDGE GOODWIN: Okay. Now --

MR. PERSEKIAN: Like if I'm -- if 

I'm on a long trip, every hour, an hour and 

half, I have to stop and go out and walk for 

ten minutes, and lift my legs for some time. 

JUDGE GOODWIN: And depending upon 

traffic, it could be a long trip from here to 

San Jose, right? 

MR. PERSEKIAN: Exactly. 

JUDGE GOODWIN: Now they don't 

have those traffic jams, up in Alaska, Mr. --

MR, PERSEKIAN; No, know. 

Alaska is beautiful, though. I wish I could 

go and live there. 

JUDGE GOODWIN: Yeah. Now how 

have your injuries affected your ability to 

earn a living? 

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MR. PERSEKIAN: Our business is we 

have to go to the clients, --

JUDGE GOODWIN: Right 

MR. PERSEKIAN: -- to meet the 

client and fill out the job with the clients. 

JUDGE GOODWIN: Right. 

MR. PERSEKIAN: Now when I cannot 

travel, I cannot reach a lot of clients. 

That's one. 

The other thing is when I'm 

sitting, talking to a client, I'll get tired -

JUDGE GOODWIN: Right. 

MR. PERSEKIAN: -- after a couple 

hours. So --

JUDGE GOODWIN: Now in '07 how 

many employees worked for Precision Displays? 

MR. PERSEKIAN: In '07 we had a 

total of like 35. 

JUDGE GOODWIN: Okay. How many do 

you have today? 

MR. PERSEKIAN: Zero. 

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JUDGE GOODWIN: Just you? 

MR. PERSEKIAN: Yeah. 

JUDGE GOODWIN: Did you have to 

lay off those people? 

MR. PERSEKIAN: Um-hum. 

JUDGE GOODWIN: Okay. Indicating, 

for the record, yes. 

MR. PERSEKIAN: Yes. 

JUDGE GOODWIN: Yeah. The reason 

I have to do that --

MR. PERSEKIAN: I understand. I -

JUDGE GOODWIN: 

microphone can't see you nodding --

is the 

MR. PERSEKIAN: Right --

JUDGE GOODWIN: — your head. 

MR. PERSEKIAN: — right, yes. 

Yeah, Precision Displays has no 

employees now. What I do is I -- if I get 

jobs, I can subcontract them to some of my 

previous employees. In fact, I make a 

commission on that. 

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JUDGE GOODWIN: Now in 09 

apparently Precision had gross revenue of 

about 910,000. 

MR. PERSEKIAN: Um-hum. 

JUDGE GOODWIN: Was that based on 

work that was -- that you got in '09, or was 

that work that had -- you had gotten prior 

years? 

MR. PERSEKIAN: I would say it's a 

combination. We did get some work in '09 --

in '09. But the amount of work that we got in 

'09 was very minimal Because being in 

business for so much time --

JUDGE GOODWIN: Right 

business. 

MR. PERSEKIAN: -- you get repeat 

JUDGE GOODWIN: Right 

MR. PERSEKIAN: And repeat 

business, it's -- it's a no-brainer. You just 

do it. Now our sales in '09 dropped vastly, 

dropped from before. 

JUDGE GOODWIN: Do you remember 

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MR. PERSEKIAN: I — gross 

revenue, like gross sales, you mean? 

JUDGE GOODWIN; 

But you don't remember? 

I mean -- yeah. 

MR. PERSEKIAN: Not exactly. 

JUDGE GOODWIN: And what does your 

revenue look like this year? 

MR. PERSEKIAN: This year? 

JUDGE GOODWIN: Yes, sir. 

MR. PERSEKIAN: Hopefully better 

than '09. But --

JUDGE GOODWIN: But you don't have 

any sense right now as to --

MR. PERSEKIAN: We have a little 

bit. I mean we have some -- how much sales we 

have so far, maybe half a million. 

JUDGE GOODWIN: Okay. 

MR. PERSEKIAN: So far. The good 

thing is -- the thing that works in my favor 

is that every day I'm going to get a little 

bit better, --

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JUDGE GOODWIN: Right. 

MR. PERSEKIAN: — which gives me 

more ability to move and increase my income. 

JUDGE GOODWIN: Right. 

MR. PERSEKIAN: The problem I have 

is for the past two years I accumulated a big 

debt burden, because of what happened. And 

it's going to take me a while to be able to 

get rid of it and pay for more than anything 

else. 

JUDGE GOODWIN: What kind of debts 

do you have? 

MR. PERSEKIAN: Credit card debts, 

suppliers' debts. I just made an arrangement 

with income tax to give them installment 

payments 

owe IRS? 

JUDGE GOODWIN: Yeah, how much --

MR. PERSEKIAN: -- because -• 

JUDGE GOODWIN: -- how much do you 

MR. PERSEKIAN: About 8,000. I 

made an arrangement with them to give them 

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JUDGE GOODWIN: How about your 

credit cards -- but now are these business or 

personal credit cards? 

MR. PERSEKIAN: Well, see, just 

because it's hard to get business finance, --

JUDGE GOODWIN: Right. 

MR. PERSEKIAN: -- I was using my 

personal credit cards to finance the business. 

JUDGE GOODWIN: Okay. So how much 

are your credit cards, round numbers? 

MR. PERSEKIAN: Nearly a hundred 

thousand. And just to give you an idea, like 

before this thing happened to me, my ability 

to raise credit, I could raise three, $400,000 

in credit. 

JUDGE GOODWIN: Right. 

MR. PERSEKIAN: Now I have a zero 

credit. So I have to depend on the money 

coming in to pay. And --

JUDGE GOODWIN: Now did you -- how 

old is your daughter? 

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MR. PERSEKIAN: She's 25. 

JUDGE GOODWIN: Okay. Do you have 

-- talking about you and your wife -- do you 

have insurance through the company? 

MR. PERSEKIAN: No. 

JUDGE GOODWIN: Health insurance? 

(No audible reply.) 

JUDGE GOODWIN: Do you have health 

insurance of your own? 

MR, PERSEKIAN: We have 

catastrophic health insurance. 

JUDGE GOODWIN: Okay. 

MR. PERSEKIAN: And that was the 

one good thing that helped me in my accident. 

JUDGE GOODWIN: So — but you must 

owe somebody, --

MR. PERSEKIAN: I'm sorry? 

JUDGE GOODWIN: 

catastrophic kicks in at some level. 

because 

MR. PERSEKIAN: Once you go to the 

hospital, they pay. 

JUDGE GOODWIN: Okay. 

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MR. PERSEKIAN: And you only have 

to pay the deductible. 

JUDGE GOODWIN; 

MR. PERSEKIAN; 

All right. 

-- which is like 

5,000 

JUDGE GOODWIN: Well, what I would 

like you to do is -- do you have credit card 

receipts at the house? 

MR. PERSEKIAN: Credit card 

receipts 

JUDGE GOODWIN: Well, in other 

words, you get a statement from your credit 

card company? 

MR. PERSEKIAN: Yes 

JUDGE GOODWIN; Yeah. What I' d 

like you to do is provide those to Mr, Black. 

MR. PERSEKIAN: I sent them. 

JUDGE GOODWIN: Oh, okay. Did --

MR. BLACK: I --w e have some --

we have some -- some demand letters from 

creditors. But I'm not sure if those are the 

credit card receipts you're just suggesting. 

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Your Honor. 

MR. PERSEKIAN: One of them is, 

like I had the problem with American Express. 

JUDGE GOODWIN: Okay. 

MR. PERSEKIAN: And they went 

ahead, and they sued me and... 

judgment? 

JUDGE GOODWIN: Did they get a 

MR. PERSEKIAN: Yes. 

JUDGE GOODWIN: Did they get a 

judgment against you or against Precision? 

MR. PERSEKIAN: Against me. 

JUDGE GOODWIN: You, personally. 

How much is that judgment? 

MR. PERSEKIAN: Like 50-some. 

JUDGE GOODWIN: Fifty thousand? 

MR. PERSEKIAN: Um-hum. See, I 

used to do with American Express an average of 

50,- to 75,000 a month — 

JUDGE GOODWIN: Right. 

MR. PERSEKIAN: -- when I was able 

to work. But when I got burned, that's it. 

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I mean -- so it's -- it's like -- I had things 

going right. I got hit. 

JUDGE GOODWIN: Right. 

MR. PERSEKIAN: Now I'm starting 

again. And I just need --

JUDGE GOODWIN; Well, but --

MR. PERSEKIAN: — a break. 

JUDGE GOODWIN: All right. Let --

what would happen if the FAA gets a judgment 

against the company for $20,000? 

MR. PERSEKIAN; Well, I don't 

know. I mean -- I mean, the company as a 

company doesn't have much. 

JUDGE GOODWIN: Right. Who owns 

the tools? 

tools. 

MR. PERSEKIAN; There's no work 

JUDGE GOODWIN: Or — but you --

well, you mentioned when you used to build 

these fixtures, that --

MR. PERSEKIAN: Uh-huh. 

JUDGE GOODWIN: you - - you 

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know, you had tools And there's an 

indication there were ladders and stuff. Did 

those belong to the individual craftsmen, or 

do those belong to you personally? 

MR. PERSEKIAN: Some of them --

most of them were stolen. 

JUDGE GOODWIN: Okay. 

MR. PERSEKIAN: After I got in the 

hospital, we had a -- a disaster. And a lot 

of stuff were stolen then. 

JUDGE GOODWIN: Well, did you have 

a trailer that you -- or a workshed that you 

kept everything in? 

MR. PERSEKIAN: Yes. 

JUDGE GOODWIN: I can relate to 

that, because I work done on my house. And 

the gentleman showed up one day with no 

trailer. 

MR. PERSEKIAN: Right. 

JUDGE GOODWIN: Somebody stole his 

trailer out of his --

MR. PERSEKIAN: Um-hum. 

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JUDGE GOODWIN: -- front yard, 

MR. PERSEKIAN: Um-hum. 

JUDGE GOODWIN: Everything he 

owned. 

MR. PERSEKIAN: And like every 

time we would go somewhere else, we would have 

tools missing. We would have saws missing. 

We'd have to go out and buy it again --

JUDGE GOODWIN: All right. 

MR. PERSEKIAN: -- for every job. 

But this time, it's like there's nothing. So 

like what I'm doing now is if I get a job from 

Your Honor --

JUDGE GOODWIN: Right. 

MR. PERSEKIAN; I know my 

people in the industry, I might go tell them 

build me this. I got it from him for 100 and 

sell it to Your Honor for 120, --

JUDGE GOODWIN: Okay. 

MR. PERSEKIAN: — and I make 20 

bucks. 

JUDGE GOODWIN: Okay. Mr. Black, 

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of Mr. Persekian? 

MR. BLACK: Well, there are some 

questions for Mr. Persekian. And I'd like to 

just sort of clarify, perhaps, --

JUDGE GOODWIN: Right. 

MR. BLACK: 

documents that we have, 

some of the 

We do have a copy of the judgment 

that was issued against Mr. Persekian in favor 

of American Express. It's for -- almost --

just shy $54,000. It was issued by the -- by 

the court -- the Superior Court in Walnut 

Creek, I believe it is, on May 11th of 2010. 

JUDGE GOODWIN: And it's against 

him personally? 

MR. BLACK: It's against him 

personally. 

But I do not have any other credit 

card statements. 

JUDGE GOODWIN: Right. 

MR. BLACK: --or anything of that 

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nature. 

As far as the documentation about 

Precision Displays' ability to pay, I must 

note for the record that we were quite active 

in attempting to get that material from 

Precision Displays. 

In fact, that was a matter that 

was -- resulted in the order to show cause 

that Your Honor issued, you know, early July. 

And we received very limited information 

directly about Precision Displays in response 

to that order to show cause. 

I -- certainly the Agency is 

willing to look at additional documentation, 

if the Court feels that that would be helpful 

to its decision in this case. 

However, this is the time for the 

-- those subjects to be explored. And I have 

not seen -- Mr. Persekian certainly has been 

on adequate notice to be able to explain to 

the Court about his company's financial 

condition. 

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And he has provided nothing other 

than his oral testimony about the health 

concerns that he and his family have gone 

through, business difficulties that he has 

experienced. 

But it would seem quite apparent 

that those -- that the financial matters are 

very susceptible to reporting. He has an 

accountant that he works with routinely. And 

he has not provided anything specific from 

that accountant on Precision Displays' ability 

to pay. 

JUDGE GOODWIN: Well, I understand 

that. And it's certainly Respondent's burden 

at this point. But I also believe that, as a 

matter of due process in an administrative 

proceeding -- -- what I'm toying with doing is 

issuing an order with a fairly short 

turnaround, 

And if there's no response to 

that, the Court will proceed accordingly. If 

there's a response, I'll give the opportunity 

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to review it. I'm not telling you to do or 

not do anything at all. And then we'll, you 

know, see where it is. 

Yes, sir? 

MR. PERSEKIAN: May I approach? 

JUDGE GOODWIN: Show it to Mr. 

Black. 

MR. PERSEKIAN; Mr. Black has a 

copy of all these. 

MR. BLACK: Well, I have never 

seen this. I don't know that I've -- I don't 

believe I've seen this. 

MR. PERSEKIAN: It was part of the 

package I sent. 

MR. BLACK: Well, I don't -- I 

believe I've seen this docioment. 

There's a mix. Your Honor. 

JUDGE GOODWIN: Okay. You don't 

have an office in this building, do you? 

MR. BLACK: We do not. 

JUDGE GOODWIN: I forget where 

your office is, or is it -- or, you don't have 

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here. 

MR. BLACK: We don't have one 

JUDGE GOODWIN: That's why you're 

MR. BLACK: Los Angeles 

JUDGE GOODWIN: Yeah, okay. And 

Seattle still. 

MR. BLACK; Your Honor, in the 

package of documents that Mr. Persekian has 

just handed to me, I have -- I have reviewed 

some and perhaps even most of these documents 

previously, but not all of them. 

JUDGE GOODWIN: At this point is 

there anything else further from the Agency? 

MR. BLACK: No, Your Honor. 

JUDGE GOODWIN; Okay, Mr. 

Persekian, at this stage I have issued a show 

cause, okay, to present evidence. 

MR. PERSEKIAN: Sorry? 

JUDGE GOODWIN: It's a due-process 

issue where -- this is an administrative 

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proceeding. You've presented an argument that 

I think the Court should consider. I'm not 

sure that I actually have the ability to do 

so. 

What I think I'm going to do in 

this case is I'm going to generate an order, 

Mr. Persekian, instructing you to provide to 

Mr. Black within two weeks -- I'll take a look 

at my calendar. 

And very honestly, Mr. Black, one 

of the reasons I'm doing this is the old 

adage: You can't squeeze blood out of a 

turnip. 

What I want you to do by 3 

September, Mr. Persekian, -- and I will put 

this in an order -- is to provide to Mr. Black 

tax returns for Precision Displays -- and I 

better write this down -- for 2007, 2008, and 

2009, realizing that some of this may be 

repetitious, copies of most recent -- and the 

tax returns are for both Precision Display and 

you individually. 

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JUDGE GOODWIN; - copies of most 

recent credit card statements for the same 

years 

MR. PERSEKIAN: The last — 

JUDGE GOODWIN: 

three years. Okay? 

MR. PERSEKIAN; 

credit cards? 

Just the last 

What are the 

JUDGE GOODWIN: Credit cards I'd 

like -- I'd love you provide the most recent 

credit card statements. 

MR. PERSEKIAN: The last one? 

JUDGE GOODWIN: Yes 

MR. PERSEKIAN: Okay. 

JUDGE GOODWIN: Unless you think 

you need prior ones, Mr. Black? 

MR. BLACK: No. The most recent 

three years would be sufficient. Your Honor, 

MR. PERSEKIAN: Three years? 

JUDGE GOODWIN: Well, do you want 

the most recent or the most recent three 

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MR. BLACK: The most recent three 

JUDGE GOODWIN: Okay. 

MR. PERSEKIAN; You want me to 

make copies of all three years? 

MR. BLACK: I believe that's what 

the Judge is suggesting. 

JUDGE GOODWIN: Yeah. Most credit 

card companies will give you an annual 

statement 

MR. PERSEKIAN: Um-hum. 

JUDGE GOODWIN: So rather -- if 

you have an annual statement from '08, I'll 

ask you to provide that. Otherwise, you know, 

for the months. What we're trying to do is 

see what the business looked like. Your 

argument is: I agree that we did something we 

shouldn't have done, you know, and it was an 

anomaly, but I can't pay. 

The problem is you've got the 

burden of --

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MR. PERSEKIAN: Proof 

JUDGE GOODWIN; 

you can't pay. So --

MR. PERSEKIAN; 

interrupt, but --

showing that 

Sorry to 

JUDGE GOODWIN: Go ahead. 

MR. PERSEKIAN: -- how about if I 

call the credit card companies and they need 

more time than that to send me copies? 

JUDGE GOODWIN: Well, let me get 

to that. Your -- but your accountant should 

have this stuff. Okay? 

So what I'm going to ask you to do 

is either to provide annual credit card 

statements for '07, '08, and '09. And if you 

don't have that, then the monthly statement, -

MR. PERSEKIAN: Okay. 

JUDGE GOODWIN: -- okay? 

MR. PERSEKIAN: I'll try to get as 

much as I can. 

JUDGE GOODWIN: Okay. Now do you 

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provide your accountant with information on an 

ongoing basis, or just when you get to the end 

of the year? 

MR. PERSEKIAN: No, ongoing basis. 

JUDGE GOODWIN: What sort of 

records have you given your accountant for 

this year? 

MR. PERSEKIAN: Sales, purchases. 

JUDGE GOODWIN: Okay. I'd like 

the accountant to provide -- I don't want him 

to send you -- I mean, if I ask him to send 

everything, Mr. Black, you may get boxes of 

stuff. 

-- at least a summary of your 2010 

loss? 

MR. PERSEKIAN: Like profit and 

JUDGE GOODWIN: Yes. If it comes 

from the accountant, Mr. Black, I'm less 

concerned about anomalies 

MR. PERSEKIAN: Like profit and 

loss, right? 

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JUDGE GOODWIN: Yes, sir. 

MR. PERSEKIAN: Okay, 

JUDGE GOODWIN: For 2010 to date 

MR. PERSEKIAN: Yes. 

JUDGE GOODWIN: Well, let's say 

through 1 July. 

MR. PERSEKIAN: Okay. 

JUDGE GOODWIN: Yeah, because --

MR. PERSEKIAN: The end of July. 

JUDGE GOODWIN: — that's going to 

be a moving target. 

MR. BLACK: So for the first six 

months of 2010? 

JUDGE GOODWIN: Yeah. Now can you 

think of a -- if you get the tax returns, if 

you get the credit card receipts, if you get 

the P and L for the six -- for six months... 

MR. BLACK: We'll certainly 

consider anything that he can provide. 

JUDGE GOODWIN: Yes, that's --

MR. BLACK: That would be superior 

to what we have to this point. 

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JUDGE GOODWIN; That's all I'm 

asking you to do. And I'm not telling you 

either way. You know, what I'm going to ask 

you -- once you get the info- -- once -- what 

I'd like you to do the week after the 3rd --

Mr. Persekian, I'm going to -- I'm 

going to get out an order. But I'm putting 

you on notice now as to what I want you to do. 

MR. PERSEKIAN: Yes, sir 

JUDGE GOODWIN; -- which is the 

tax returns for the Precision Display and you 

individually --

MR. PERSEKIAN: Um-hum. 

JUDGE GOODWIN; for '07, '08, 

and '09. I want credit card statements, the 

annual statements for '07, '08, and '09. If 

you don't have those, then the monthly 

statements. I want the profit and loss 

statement for the first six months of 2010. 

MR. PERSEKIAN: Yes, sir. 

JUDGE GOODWIN: I stil l can' t ge t 

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used to whether it's twenty and ten or two 

thousand and ten. 

And I want those to Mr. Black by 

September 3rd. 

MR. PERSEKIAN: Yes, sir. 

JUDGE GOODWIN: Now if you can't 

get information, then I want you to 

communicate with Mr. Black, all right, 

understanding that he's in Anchorage and 

you're here. 

MR. PERSEKIAN: We -- we talk. 

JUDGE GOODWIN: Okay. 

MR. PERSEKIAN: I talked to him by 

phone a few times. 

JUDGE GOODWIN: Then what I'd like 

you to do, Mr. Black, is let me know on or 

about the 10th whether you got -- what 

information you've gotten. And the reason I'm 

doing that is, is there's a 

generic-communication issue that has nothing 

to do with this case. 

MR. PERSEKIAN: Um-h\im. 

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JUDGE GOODWIN: And I can speak 

only for my office. 

Because of the time differential I 

know for a fact that we will put something in 

the mail in Washington, D.C. that Mr. Black 

may not see for an extended period of time. 

MR. PERSEKIAN: Exactly. 

JUDGE GOODWIN: I would encourage 

you --do you have a company Federal Express? 

MR. PERSEKIAN: Yes, sir. 

JUDGE GOODWIN: I would encourage 

you to Federal Express whatever you have to 

Mr. Black. 

MR. PERSEKIAN: Absolutely. 

JUDGE GOODWIN: Now if you — if 

he needs a reasonable extension of time, I'll 

ask you to consider it. I'm not instructing 

you to do anything. 

MR. BLACK; We're amenable to 

that, as long as we see progress. Your Honor. 

JUDGE GOODWIN: Right. And now --

and because the credit card may have -- and. 

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of course, we don't know what state the 

accountant's in right now. 

Then what we're going to do, Mr. 

Persekian, is I'm going to assume that 

everything is going to go well. Mr. Black 

will have everything by the 3rd. He'll let me 

know by the 10th. 

I will then put into the process 

my decision, whatever I'm going to do. Now 

I'll be honest with you. I'm going to be in 

Japan the first week from the 14th through the 

23rd of September. I've got an obligation in 

Chicago that weekend. I'm not going to get to 

this case until on or about the 1st of 

October. 

And having said that, I've got to 

come up with the first week in October -- the 

second week in October. So I'll tell you 

both, you're not going to get a decision on 

September 11th, just because of what's going 

on, 

But the cutoff date, absent 

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agreement by Mr. Black, is that you're going 

to get all this stuff to him by the 3rd of 

September. He'll let me know by the 10th. 

Then I'll put this in the process. 

And I'm not going to give you a 

deadline, Mr. Black. If you decide you don't 

want to do something, that's fine. If you 

decide you do want to do something, that's 

fine, up until the point that I put my 

signature on a decision. And 3rd plus 30 

days, I'm willing to do anything that you and 

the Respondent are willing to do. 

MR. BLACK: All right. 

JUDGE GOODWIN: I have -- once I 

have issue a decision, Mr. Persekian -- I keep 

looking to make sure I pronounce it correctly, 

okay -- I only have jurisdiction over the case 

up to 3 0 days after I issue an opinion. I can 

do anything I want to. After 30 days, I lose 

jurisdiction. 

So once my decision is issued, I 

have 30 days to reconsider if I want to do 

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something or if I don't want to do anything. 

After that it's in the hands of the appellate 

body at the FAA, if someone appeals. 

Go ahead. 

MR. PERSEKIAN: Okay. A couple 

things. I know for a fact, if I request any 

documentation from the credit card companies, 

I will not get it by September 3rd. 

JUDGE GOODWIN: Well, I understand 

that. But what I'm asking you to do -- and I 

don't know your accountant, and I don't know 

what your books are like, but there's -- I 

suspect there's a possibility that your 

accountant may have some of this information. 

MR. PERSEKIAN: I'm sure he does. 

JUDGE GOODWIN: And a call today -

- and I would encourage you to have your 

accountant call Mr. Black. You know. 

obviously your accountant works for you. He's 

not going to disclose. 

But if he doesn't have item A that 

you need, Mr. Black, he may have item B, which 

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gives you the same information, 

MR. BLACK: Correct, Your Honor. 

We can be -- we can work with the accountant. 

if need be, 

JUDGE GOODWIN: Yeah. And if 

s o what I'm sayin g i s let's assume that you 

cannot get the annual statements. If your 

accountant talks to Mr. Black, and your 

accountant says: Well, I don't have the 

annual statements either, but I've got some 

other document, it may be a document that your 

accountants generate. 

MR. PERSEKIAN: All right. 

JUDGE GOODWIN; If Mr. Black is 

happy with that, I think I don't care what --

what the two of you rely on. But, you know, 

the problem with is, we get back to the point 

that you have to demonstrate to the Court the 

inability to pay. 

And right now we've got fragmented 

records and -- okay. And, frankly, if I had 

to make a decision today on the records that 

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I've got, you know, you haven't presented a 

compelling -- you presented an emotional 

argument, but you haven't presented 

necessarily a legal argument upon which I can 

make a decision that you might look upon 

favorably. 

MR. PERSEKIAN: I -- I understand. 

Your Honor. And I mean one of the reasons is 

my inexperience 

JUDGE GOODWIN; You're not a 

lawyer. And -- nor would you want me with a 

hammer and saw doing what you're doing. Okay? 

MR. PERSEKIAN: Exactly. 

JUDGE GOODWIN: So I used to tell 

my clients: I'm a lawyer. I go into court --

when I used to try cases like Mr. Black. I'm 

in the courtroom every day. That doesn't mean 

that you can't come in and present the case 

But it's like I do it all the 

time. You work with a hammer and saw in 

designs every day. I could probably build a 

cabinet -- you'd probably laugh for days, but 

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I can build one. And it would probably take 

me months to do something you could do in a 

day. 

MR. PERSEKIAN: Exactly. And, I 

mean, I considered having a lawyer represent 

me, but I just -• 

JUDGE GOODWIN: Lawyers are 

expensive. 

MR. PERSEKIAN: Exactly. 

JUDGE GOODWIN; Mr. Black and I 

can tell you that. 

MR. PERSEKIAN: That's that's -

that's the primary -- that's why I'm 

representing myself. And I appreciate all the 

help that I'm getting from Mr. Black and from 

Your Honor 

JUDGE GOODWIN: Well, it -- I 

mean, let me just say to both of you, 

obviously you're communicating. You're 

getting along. And Mr. Black's got a job to 

do; you have a job to do. 

MR. PERSEKIAN: I -- I understand. 

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One more point I'd like to raise. 

JUDGE GOODWIN: Yes. 

MR. PERSEKIAN: In the five items 

that Mr. Black mentioned, one of them was 

there was no emergency phone number on the 

form we presented to Alaska Airlines. And as 

a standard we always put phone numbers on this 

one. 

JUDGE GOODWIN; You said that 

But you've got to understand in hazardous 

material there's a special form. See, the 

problem with hazardous material information --

and this all goes back to the Air Florida 

case. 

There was a -- Mr. Black, what was 

airliner that -- well, there was a UPS flight 

that burned up on the ground. There was --

there was a landing in Sacramento where -- it 

was either Airborne or one of those landed on 

fire. It was a cargo plane. That's the 

reason that you might look at the 

requirements. It's like why would I have to 

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do that? 

Well, it's because the guy or lady 

at the FedEx facility in Indianapolis, Indiana 

who sees your box doesn't know anything about 

you, doesn't know anything about Mr. Black. 

I mean they're looking at a box. 

And if the box says anything on this long list 

you had certain regulatory things that you had 

to put down there on the form in a format that 

they can read so that they can make judgmental 

decisions. 

And you have said that there was a 

phone number on a form with the shipment. I'm 

assuming that that's correct, but that doesn't 

mean that it meets the regulatory 

requirements, --

MR. BLACK: Right, I --

JUDGE GOODWIN: — you know. And 

that's -- that's mitigation. 

MR. PERSEKIAN: Yeah. 

JUDGE GOODWIN: Okay. 

MR. PERSEKIAN: I wasn't there, so 

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JUDGE GOODWIN: Well, I understand 

that. And I -- I had a case in Hawaii where 

a gentleman is Filipino and liked to work with 

wood. And he, in his carry-on bag, had wood 

hardener and something else. And he was on 

the way to his home in the Philippines to do 

some work. He didn't know hazmat from 

anything, 

And when the TSA people picked it 

out, he apologized, called his son. His son 

came and picked it up. But the regulations 

required that I impose a fine, which I did. 

Now as it turns out, the amount got reduced. 

You know, again, I can't do 

equity. I have to deal with facts. I have to 

deal with the law. That was a case where the 

man was, at best, marginally literate. You 

know, all he knew was he worked with wood 

hardener in his wood shop in his house in 

Hawaii. And he wanted to fly to his home in 

the Philippines to continue working. 

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The problem is that 3 0 -- as the 

flight crews will tell you at 36,000 feet the 

gas from a butane lighter, if caused to 

ignite, causes a catastrophe. And it isn't 

what you're shipping necessarily. It's what 

you ship in conjunction with what Mr. Black --

And if you need to stand up, you 

know, stand up and walk around. I can see --

MR. PERSEKIAN: Thank you. 

JUDGE GOODWIN; you're 

beginning to flinch, 

And so I've had a number of agents 

testify, it isn't that what you said is 

necessarily in and of itself that it caused a 

catastrophe. It's that you ship something, 

Mr. Black ships something, and I ship 

something. And the three of them leak at 

3 6,000 feet, you know, and that's --

MR. PERSEKIAN: I — I understand 

everything, and I perceive everything. And I 

really feel very bad for what happened. And 

I thank God that this never got on a plane and 

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caused a catastrophe, you know. 

JUDGE GOODWIN: Yeah, 

MR. PERSEKIAN: But, you know, 

it's like one of these things, I wasn't there. 

I can't control -- I can't do anything about 

it. 

And there's -- there's one other 

point I'd like to discuss with you, if 

possible, 

JUDGE GOODWIN: Yeah, but let me 

ask you: Is -- do you want me to take a break 

for a couple of minutes so you can walk --

MR. PERSEKIAN: No, I'm fine. 

JUDGE GOODWIN: You're sure? 

MR. PERSEKIAN: 

to waste your time. I'm fine 

I don't want 

JUDGE GOODWIN: Well, I get paid, 

and Mr. Black enjoys San Francisco. It's not 

Alaska, but he enjoys San Francisco. 

MR. BLACK: No, I'm from here, so 

MR. PERSEKIAN: I just want --

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JUDGE GOODWIN: Oh, that's right 

I had forgotten that 

MR. BLACK: Yeah, 

JUDGE GOODWIN: That's right 

MR. PERSEKIAN; He's from Santa 

Clara, right? 

MR. BLACK: I was born in Santa 

Clara and grew up in Mountain View and 

Danville. 

MR. PERSEKIAN: The -- the other 

thing is Mr. Black was showing me the schedule 

that they are looking at. And for these 

fines, if you are considered as an individual. 

or a company --

JUDGE GOODWIN: Right. 

MR. PERSEKIAN; 

rates are much different 

-- the the 

And I was 

mentioning it to Mr. Black, the only reason 

that we ship as a company, is that if you are 

not a recognized shipper as a company by the 

airline they will not take your freight. So 

I was asking --

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JUDGE GOODWIN; Well, that's -• 

that's something for Mr. Black to consider. 

MR. PERSEKIAN: Exactly. 

JUDGE GOODWIN: But, again, that's 

one on the context, you know, of everything. 

But the problem is you've got to get back to 

the regs. This is where I'm stuck. 

Congress gives me a set of 

regulations, as modified by the Department and 

by the Federal Aviation Administration. I 

can't -- you know, if there -- if there's an 

ambiguity, I've got some flexibility. But if 

there isn't any ambiguity, I'm stuck with what 

the reg says versus what the facts are. 

And if the documents show that a 

company shipped it, I mean, I appreciate the 

fact that you have used the company name to 

get it on the aircraft, because they wouldn't 

take a shipment from Robert Persekian. 

MR. PERSEKIAN: Exactly. 

JUDGE GOODWIN: But that's — the 

law says if you're a company and you do this. 

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MR. PERSEKIAN: Well, --

JUDGE GOODWIN: But I think if --

the fair thing for you to -- if you'll get 

those documents to Mr. Black as quickly as you 

can, --

MR. PERSEKIAN: I will do my best. 

JUDGE GOODWIN: -- you know, I'll 

-- I know Mr. Black will take -- he will look 

at them. He will make a decision he feels is 

appropriate. And if the two -- if you can't 

reach an accommodation, then I'll do what they 

pay me to do. 

MR. BLACK: Your Honor, on -- with 

regard to the information that Mr. Persekian 

has been directed to provide to us, I do -- he 

has provided us a profit and loss statement 

for Mayolo, Inc., which was actually for the 

six -- first six months of this year. 

JUDGE GOODWIN: Okay. 

MR. BLACK: And so my question is, 

is if you have, now being directed by the 

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is it likely to be any different than this 

profit and loss statement, or is it going to 

be the same? 

MR. PERSEKIAN: Something very 

close to it, yeah. 

JUDGE GOODWIN: What other 

entities are under -• 

now. 

MR. BLACK: Mayolo? 

JUDGE GOODWIN: -- Mayolo? 

MR. PERSEKIAN: That's it, for 

JUDGE GOODWIN: So Mayolo -- the 

only companies that are under that is 

Precision Display? 

MR. PERSEKIAN: When this thing 

happened, yes. 

JUDGE GOODWIN: How about in 2 010? 

MR. PERSEKIAN: In 2010, yes. 

JUDGE GOODWIN: Okay. So you 

don't have another entity that's making 

millions of dollars --

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MR. PERSEKIAN: No, 

JUDGE GOODWIN: that works 

under Mayolo? 

we're -• 

MR. PERSEKIAN: I wish. 

JUDGE GOODWIN: I'm sure you do. 

MR. PERSEKIAN: And I — I wish 

JUDGE GOODWIN: I'll leave that --

MR. PERSEKIAN: — we — we're --

JUDGE GOODWIN: -- to you, Mr. 

Black. If you're willing to accept that, 

that's fine. 

MR. BLACK: Well, I -- I do accept 

it. It's --

JUDGE GOODWIN: What's it show? 

MR. BLACK: In speaking to Mr. 

Persekian earlier, maybe two weeks ago, it did 

sound that he has attempted to shift business 

from Precision Displays to other businesses in 

his -- under his control. I still don't quite 

understand what this Mayolo, Inc. is. 

And so if I receive a -- a profit 

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COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

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and loss statement that's similar to it, I'm 

going to question whether that's really the 

entity that the FAA is bringing its case 

against here. 

JUDGE GOODWIN: Right. Well, 

that's an issue you need to look at. But I'm 

not going to --

MR. BLACK: And, secondly, if you 

do a -- if you do some simple internet 

research for Precision Displays and Tools, you 

will see that company has a website. 

But I believe that Mr. Persekian 

told me that he has at least one other company 

with a similar name. Perhaps it was Precision 

Display -- Precision Tools, or Precision 

Cabinets, or -- I think he uses that name 

Precision in other capacities. It would be 

helpful for my perspective to be able to track 

all of this. 

JUDGE GOODWIN: Do you own any 

other companies, Mr. Persekian? 

MR. PERSEKIAN; I'll explain to 

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COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

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JUDGE GOODWIN: Okay. 

MR. PERSEKIAN: -- Your Honor, 

The company used to be called to Precision 

Jewelry Tools and Supply. 

JUDGE GOODWIN; That's what it 

used to be called? 

MR. PERSEKIAN: Then the that 

company got closed, and we started a different 

company under Precision Displays and Tools. 

JUDGE GOODWIN: Okay. 

MR. PERSEKIAN; Then the word 

"Tools," started confusing people and started 

being bad for business within that and -- with 

Precision Displays and Cabinet. 

JUDGE GOODWIN: So --

MR. PERSEKIAN: And now we call it 

Precision Displays. 

JUDGE GOODWIN: Now — 

MR. PERSEKIAN: That's all. 

JUDGE GOODWIN: -- let's go back 

to '08 

(202) 234-4433 

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MR. PERSEKIAN: Um-hum. 

JUDGE GOODWIN: When you were in 

Alaska doing work -- were you there --or your 

people? I understand that -- was it Precision 

Displays that was doing work in Alaska? 

MR. PERSEKIAN: Yes. 

JUDGE GOODWIN; Was it the 

Precision Displays that was trying to ship 

things back to the states at the end of the 

work --

MR. PERSEKIAN: Yes 

JUDGE GOODWIN: — while you were 

in the hospital? 

MR. PERSEKIAN: Yes 

JUDGE GOODWIN; Wasn't Precision 

Jewelry your --

MR. PERSEKIAN: Well, Precision 

Jewelry Tools and Supplies --

JUDGE GOODWIN: Right. 

MR. PERSEKIAN: -- is the form we 

have to put -- was the name we have to put on 

the forms with the FAA, because this is how 

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they know us as a recognized shipper. 

JUDGE GOODWIN: Okay. 

MR. PERSEKIAN: If we put it in 

any different --

JUDGE GOODWIN: They don't know 

who you are. 

MR. PERSEKIAN; then they say; 

We don't know you. We don't take your load. 

So all along, even we had the problem, because 

we moved location from June. And one time we 

got stuck, because they say we have your old 

address here. If you have a -- the new 

address we will not take it from you. 

I mean, they are so particular, 

and they are so strict that any way we write 

it, we have to write Precision Jewelry Tools 

and Supplies. We can't tell them the name has 

changed to Precision Displays. They said, no. 

it is --

JUDGE GOODWIN: Have you eve r 

changed th e article s of incorporation ; do you 

know? 

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MR. PERSEKIAN: Yeah, 

JUDGE GOODWIN: Okay. What do the 

articles of incorporation say now? 

MR. PERSEKIAN: Precision Displays 

and Cabinets 

JUDGE GOODWIN; Okay. But the 

problem is that they don't -- the FAA doesn't 

know who they are, or --

MR. PERSEKIAN: They — they --

whoever? 

JUDGE GOODWIN: 

MR. PERSEKIAN; 

TSA, or 

but the FAA 

says No, if it doesn't read Precision 

Jewelry Tools and Supplies, we will not do 

business with you. We cannot take it from 

you. 

JUDGE GOODWIN: Well, there is a 

legal mess. I'll allow you to sort through 

this. 

MR. BLACK: Well, in this 

particular case, however, did not -- did not 

the company -- let's see 

(202) 234-4433 

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The waybill on -- the Alaska 

Airlines waybill that the Court will have in 

its record reads: Precision Jewelry/T. 

MR. PERSEKIAN: Tools. 

MR. BLACK: Okay. And then on the 

the shipping address is Precision 

Displays/T. That was in San Diego. 

MR. PERSEKIAN: This means "and 

Tools." 

MR. BLACK: Okay. Do you think 

that was just how they typed it? 

MR. PERSEKIAN: Yes. 

MR. BLACK: And then — but for 

the accounting information for Alaska Air 

cargo, it's Precision Jewelry Tool and Supply? 

MR. PERSEKIAN: This is how they 

have it as a known shipper with the TSA. 

JUDGE GOODWIN: Okay. And if you 

MR. BLACK: But if you were to 

continue business today, what would you call 

your company? 

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Displays? 

MR. PERSEKIAN; 

MR. BLACK: 

Precision 

Just Precision 

MR. PERSEKIAN: Right. That's how 

we call it, and that's what we've been calling 

it. 

And, by the way, we tried to 

change that name with the TSA, but it looks 

like it's a whole process by itself that we 

said, you know, we don't want to touch it, 

because it's okay. We'll just -- you want me 

to call this red, I'll call it red. 

The idea is to get what I want. 

Because to me, if you call it Precision 

Displays or Precision Jewelry Tools and 

Supplies, all I need is to get this package 

from point A to point B. 

understand. 

JUDGE GOODWIN: All right 

MR. BLACK: And, if I — and if I 

- I realized the Court has asked whether I 

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have any further question of Mr. Persekian, 

JUDGE GOODWIN: Sure 

MR. BLACK; 

I do have one other -• 

•- and I said no. But 

JUDGE GOODWIN: Sure, go ahead. 

MR. BLACK: Does -- in looking at 

some of the financial information that you 

have supplied to us for Mayolo, it indicates 

that there is a grocery store of some sort? 

MR. PERSEKIAN: There used to be. 

MR. BLACK: There used to be. 

Could you explain that to me? 

MR. PERSEKIAN: Well, Mayolo was 

the name of my wife. And basically she used 

to own a grocery store that she sold five 

years ago. 

MR. BLACK: All right. So if I — 

if I see information for grocery stores, that 

would be at least five years out of date? 

MR. PERSEKIAN: That's when she 

sold the store. 

MR. BLACK: Is that a family name 

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for her, Mayolo? 

MR. PERSEKIAN: That's her 

father's name. 

MR. BLACK: Okay. So was that in 

English her maiden name? 

MR. PERSEKIAN: It's her father's 

first name. 

MR. BLACK: Her father's first 

name. I see. 

MR. PERSEKIAN: And she -- out of 

respect for her father, she's using it. And 

she wanted to do business under it, --

MR. BLACK: Great. 

MR. PERSEKIAN: — and I said I 

don't care. 

MR. BLACK: Very good. Thank you. 

MR. PERSEKIAN: See, we go back to 

the same issue. I know her to make cabinets. 

That's all I know. 

MR. BLACK: Your Honor, — that's 

the extent of my questions. Your Honor. 

JUDGE GOODWIN: Okay. That's 

(202) 234-4433 

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COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

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fine. 

Is there anything else you have, 

Mr. Persekian? 

MR. PERSEKIAN: I guess --

JUDGE GOODWIN: Okay. 

MR. PERSEKIAN: No. I mean I'm 

just looking forward to put this behind me and 

just --

that's --

JUDGE GOODWIN; Okay, Well, 

MR. PERSEKIAN: -- proceed with my 

life. 

JUDGE GOODWIN: Right. Okay. , It 

might be, after we go off the record, you may 

want to show him the picture that you gave me 

from Mr. Deitz. 

MR. BLACK: You have the only 

copy. So if we --

JUDGE GOODWIN: Well, no, --

MR. BLACK: --we can be sure --

JUDGE GOODWIN: — you take it 

back, and then we can --

(202) 234-4433 

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COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

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MR. BLACK: Yeah. 

JUDGE GOODWIN: -- just -- it has 

nothing to do with this case. I had a case in 

Anchorage a couple of weeks ago. And the 

investigator was a Mr. Deitz -- I guess the 

same as -- and we were talking about what can 

happen. And what he's done is there's a 

picture -- I guess this happened in Anchorage? 

MR. BLACK: No, I think it was in 

Michigan. 

JUDGE GOODWIN: Of -- of a --

MR. BLACK: The word gets around. 

JUDGE GOODWIN: Yeah, but it's --

is this one of those lithiiim battery cases? 

MR. BLACK: This was an inducer. 

Someone was trying to change the voltage on a 

-- I think they were trying to charge their 

cellphone off of a 12-volt airplane engine --

JUDGE GOODWIN: Oh, for heaven's 

sake 

MR. BLACK: -- that got warm, 

started a fire. The guy takes the air -- the 

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guy doesn't have a fire extinguisher in the 

plane because, according to him, he couldn't 

imagine the plane ever catching fire. 

JUDGE GOODWIN: Right. 

MR. BLACK: And SO without that 

fire extinguisher, he probably -- the 

insurance was probably void. And he has a 

brand-new plane with a glass cockpit that's 

worth nothing. It has nothing to do with this 

case, so --

JUDGE GOODWIN: As I judged, it's 

more of matter of info. There's an article in 

USAToday talking about lithium batteries and 

their propensity to self-combust. 

MR. PERSEKIAN: Lithium batteries? 

JUDGE GOODWIN: And the •- I 

didn't know anything about it. And they said 

there was a flight, an American Airlines 

flight on the way to Brazil that they -- the 

flight attendants confiscated all the lithium 

batteries. And some guy had 50 of them that -

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MR. PERSEKIAN: On the plane? 

JUDGE GOODWIN: On the plane 

They felt that was a little much. But 

apparently they're using cell phones, and 

computers, and a number of other things. And 

for reasons no one can explain, they will, on 

occasion, --

MR. PERSEKIAN: Explode. 

JUDGE GOODWIN: -- self-combust. 

MR. PERSEKIAN; Maybe the 

altitudes, pressure. 

MR. BLACK: And SO if you have --

like the Court was explaining earlier, if you 

have one person who has the lithium battery in 

their bag, and then the next person has, you 

know, the -- you know, the camp stove fuel, --

JUDGE GOODWIN: Butane fuel. 

MR. BLACK: -- and then the next 

person has, you know, their collection of --

their prize collection of greasy rags, I mean, 

you've just got terrible situation that -- any 

one of those might not have been awful, but 

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MR. PERSEKIAN: I mean -- Mr 

Black, just for the record, I understand --

that 

MR. BLACK: 

MR. PERSEKIAN; 

And we appreciate 

-- that they 

the validity of what you're coming through and 

what you're trying to do, I understand and I 

respect that. And basically if -- and I know 

something like that should carry a penalty. 

I'm not arguing with that. 

The only thing I'm trying to say 

is if we can do it in a way where I can be 

able to pay, that's all I'm asking for. I'm -

JUDGE GOODWIN: Well, and I think 

you've been very clear. Had you been here, 

this wouldn't have happened. Just -- and I 

think Mr. Black and I see more cases where you 

get the camper who is off on vacation, who's 

got a butane bottle in their carry-on, --

MR. PERSEKIAN: Yeah. 

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JUDGE GOODWIN: -- so it's -- and 

you and I know that -- I mean you, obviously 

you're sensitive, but it's --

MR. PERSEKIAN: And -- and the 

fact that we've been in business since 1991 

and nothing happened from 1991 --

JUDGE GOODWIN: Right. 

MR. PERSEKIAN: -- to 2008 should 

say something. 

JUDGE GOODWIN: No, it does. It 

does say something. 

Okay. We'll go off the record. 

(Proceedings were concluded at 

10:25 o'clock a.m.) 

(202) 234-4433 

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Neal R. Gross & Co., 

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Inc 
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202-234-4433 

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202-234-4433 

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Neal R. Gross & Co., 

202-234-4433 

Inc 
Page 113 

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202-234-4433 

Inc, 
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wife's 6:5 

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$ 

$1,50019:15 

$20,000 9:7 11:9 

20:8 23:4 56:10 

$4,000 19:21 20:7 

$4,000-per-violat. 

23:1 

$400,000 52:15 

$440019:19 

$500 52:1 

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$8,20019:15 

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12-volt 99:18 

120 58:18 

12001:21 

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14th 73:11 

15552:20 

16-ounce 16:15,16 

171:11 

189:3 10:17 11:7 

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202-234-443 3 

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3547:19 

36,000 82:2,18 

4 

4th 9:3 21:1 22:21 

408-504-2515 2:22 

4501:14 

5 

5,000 54:5 

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50-some 55:15 

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75,000 55:19 

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8,000 51:21 

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Pag e 11 5 

Nea l R. Gross & Co . 

202-234-443 3 

Inc . 
116 

CERTIFICATE 

This is to certify that the foregoing transcript 

in the matter of: Precision Displays and Tools 

Before; Hon. Richard C. Goodwin, ALJ 

Date August 17, 2010 

Place: San Francisco, California 

represents the full and complete proceedings of the 

aforementioned matter, as reported and reduced to 

typewriting. 

vJ)tU<t«C ftilMJA^ 

Susan Palmer 

(202) 234-4433 

NEAL R. GROSS 

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com