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### Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Rulemaking Advisory Committee Webinar 12-01-2014

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 2 1 A P P E A R A N C E S 2 JOHN CYMBALSKY 3 DOUG RAWALD 4 KELLEY KLINE 5 JEREMIAH FREEEMAN 6 ANDREW DELASKI 7 JOHN CASKEY 8 THOMAS ECKMAN 9 ASHLEY ARMSTRONG 10 KENT PETERSON 11 ALEX KROWKA 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22

### Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Rulemaking Advisory Committee Webinar 12-01-2014

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 3 1 TABLE OF CONTENTS 2 AGENDA ITEM/SPEAKER: PAGE 3 Recognize Contributions of Members with Terms Ending, Update on ASRAC 4 Membership Package 5 5 Regional standards Enforcement Negotiated Rulemaking Discussion and Vote on 6 Working Group Term Sheet 6 7 Manufactured Housing Negotiated Rulemaking Discussion and Vote on Working Group 8 Term Sheet 46 9 Discussion of Next Steps and Possible New Working Groups, Vote on Forming New 10 Working Groups (if applicable) 57 11 Open Discussion to Public 76 (No questions posed) 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22

### Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Rulemaking Advisory Committee Webinar 12-01-2014

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 4 1 P R O C E E D I N G S 2 MR. CYMBALSKY: Okay, everyone, this is 3 John Cymbalsky at DOE. Looks like we have a 4 pretty good turnout on the phone so we're going to 5 get started here. So first of all, let me thank 6 everyone for dialing in. 7 We have established a quorum so anything 8 we do today will meet the needs of our charter of 9 ASRAC in terms of voting. 10 I also want to thank members of the 11 public who may have dialed into the webinar for 12 joining us. We welcome you and we'll give you a 13 chance towards the end of the meeting to have any 14 comments you might have. 15 If you could mute your phones while 16 you're not speaking that will be helpful on our 17 end, getting a little feedback. Thank you, seems 18 to have improved. 19 Okay. So in front of you here today, 20 you'll see the agenda we've sketched out for 21 today. Personally, I don't think we'll need all 22 the time but we'll see how it goes. We've

### Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Rulemaking Advisory Committee Webinar 12-01-2014

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 5 1 budgeted two hours for today's meeting. I'd like 2 to first start off by thanking a few of our 3 members who will be leaving ASRAC. Today is 4 actually their last day so for those who have 5 joined in and it is your last day, I want to thank 6 you personally for participating and those three 7 members are Tim Cassidy, Steve Cousins, and Kent 8 Peterson. All three of you, the Department 9 personally appreciates your help in being on 10 ASRAC. I hope you found this a worthwhile 11 endeavor and I know the Department thanks all 12 three of you for taking the time out of your busy 13 schedules to be a part of this group. I think 14 we've really moved forward on lots of different 15 subjects and again, thanks for your contributions. 16 I'd also want to say that we're still in 17 the midst of moving our membership package so, you 18 know, we'll have three people leaving. Of course, 19 we'll have to add some more people to the group 20 and so we have put out a Federal Register notice a 21 few months ago soliciting new nominations and 22 we've moved the package forward here in the

### Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Rulemaking Advisory Committee Webinar 12-01-2014

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 6 1 building to get signed by the Secretary. So he 2 reviews these packages and he's in the midst of 3 doing that. We're hoping within a month or so to 4 get those new members on board but we will 5 continue to update the group on the progress 6 there. 7 And unless anyone else has anything they 8 want to say at the outset, we're going to get 9 right into the content here. So if anyone else 10 from ASRAC has anything they want to raise here at 11 the beginning, feel free. 12 (No response.) 13 MR. CYMBALSKY: Okay, I think we'll move 14 along. So one of the working groups -- you can 15 see the second agenda item here was regarding 16 Regional Standards Enforcement and so we had a 17 working group that met many times over the summer 18 to hammer out a deal here. I'm going to turn it 19 over to Doug Rawald, who was the DOE lead on this, 20 and he will walk you through a little PowerPoint 21 here on what the group came up with and then we'll 22 take a vote and have questions/answers after that.

### Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Rulemaking Advisory Committee Webinar 12-01-2014

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 7 1 MR. RAWALD: Okay. This is Doug and the 2 theme that we heard very early on in discussing 3 the enforcement part of dealing with the regional 4 standards for central air conditioning was that 5 everyone agreed they want something simple, 6 understandable and yet able to have an actual 7 effect in ensuring that we get the energy savings 8 that we all agreed we wanted to get here by having 9 regional standards in the first place. So we 10 focused ourselves on a couple of different areas. 11 If we can get to the next slide because I can't 12 get this to 13 UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Oh, try it now. 14 MR. RAWALD: Okay. So we broke it up 15 into some just very different ideas. First, we 16 went through some basic concepts. We talked about 17 how to keep the public aware. We thought about 18 different training tools we want to implement, how 19 people report violations, what we would require 20 folks to do as far as retaining records, what the 21 Department would do if they found that something 22 had gone wrong, different labeling ideas and then

### Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Rulemaking Advisory Committee Webinar 12-01-2014

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 8 1 also how manufacturer would be held liable for 2 this. 3 Let's talk first about the basics. The 4 linchpin of our whole entire process was on the 5 idea of how we would interpret the 14 SEER or the 6 EER for the SW Region, what that really meant. 7 And so what the group agreed was the least 8 efficient rating combination for a specified model 9 of condensing unit must be 14 in the SE and SW 10 Regions. So what that means is that any 11 condensing unit that was being sold in the South 12 must not have a certified combination from its 13 manufacturer below 14. That really helps simplify 14 the process of trying to figure, okay, what would 15 be compliant and not simply by looking at the 16 unit. 17 Now we also carried that concept forward 18 to the EER, so least efficient rating combination 19 for a specified model of condensing unit must meet 20 the minimum EER requirement in the Southwest as 21 well, so same concept just to EER that you have 22 for the SEER.

### Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Rulemaking Advisory Committee Webinar 12-01-2014

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 9 1 So as I explain, any condensing unit 2 model that has a certified combination that's 3 below the regional standard cannot be installed in 4 the region, so that's the baseline. And a 5 condensing unit model certified below a regional 6 standard by the manufacturer of that condensing 7 unit cannot be installed in a region to regional 8 standards even with an indoor coil from an ICM or 9 an air handler combination that may have a 10 certified rating meeting the applicable regional 11 standards. In other words, just because, you 12 know, a manufacturer of a condensing unit has a 13 combination out there certified by an ICM with an 14 indoor coil that brings it above 14, that 15 condensing unit still can't be used in the South 16 or the South -- Southeast or Southwest. So that 17 was the basic linchpin of the while entire unit 18 was that we all agreed to the specs for one -- one 19 party abstaining to it. 20 From there, we also discussed different 21 definitions that were important to us on concepts 22 that were not previously defined by the

### Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Rulemaking Advisory Committee Webinar 12-01-2014

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 10 1 Department. So we looked at the different parties 2 that were undefined. First was the contractor and 3 so we defined it be a person other than an 4 manufacturer or distributor who sells to or 5 installs for an end user a central air conditioner 6 subject to regional standards. So we had the 7 chain then basically of the market being the 8 manufacturers, distributors, and then the 9 contractor as they defined here. 10 Now a particular type of contractor, we 11 defined the dealer and that was important because 12 the statute refers to dealers. But essentially, 13 we defined a dealer to be a type of contractor 14 generally with a relationship with one or more 15 specific manufacturers. So a dealer, for all 16 intents and purposes, would be a contractor. 17 It was also important for us to kind of 18 just agree to what would be actually installation 19 of a unit. This is important because the whole 20 idea of regional standards are premised around 21 installation. So installation we agreed would be 22 the connection of the refrigerant lines and/or

### Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Rulemaking Advisory Committee Webinar 12-01-2014

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 11 1 electrical systems to make the central air 2 conditioner operational. Once again, we sought 3 for definitions that would be broad enough to 4 cover everyone we wanted to cover and also be 5 simple and understandable to the folks that would 6 be covered by these different terms. 7 We also wanted to make sure that we 8 described in the preamble that internet sales 9 would be captured underneath different definitions 10 depending on what was going on. So an internet 11 seller selling to a contractor would meet the 12 definition of distributor and an internet seller 13 selling to an end user would meet the definition 14 of a contractor, and so we're going to have to 15 spell that out in any rule is what the government 16 -- is what the group asked that we do. 17 Now the group asked a lot about public 18 awareness and so DOE agreed to establish a webpage 19 with information on regional standards and to 20 allow folks to link that from their own websites 21 so consumers and other folks in the marketing 22 chain could get information about what's going on

### Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Rulemaking Advisory Committee Webinar 12-01-2014

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 12 1 in the regional standards. 2 We also developed a consumer information 3 tri-fold and are putting together a one-page item 4 for distributors to also put on their calendars 5 that could be given out. So the consumer 6 information tri-fold would be used by contractors 7 when they go into a house to explain to a customer 8 why they have to get a certain level performing 9 item and help them explain it's the law. And so 10 we thought that would be very helpful to them, so 11 we developed an idea here. We floated it with the 12 group. They approved it and that's currently 13 working its way through DOE approval process now. 14 We also are going to accepting 15 complaints through email so we're going to put a 16 link to the ability to send that email on our 17 regional standards webpage. 18 Talked a little bit about training and 19 everyone in the industry pretty much came to the 20 table and said, hey, we're willing to participate 21 in training, so manufacturers, distributors, 22 contractors will all conduct their own training

### Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Rulemaking Advisory Committee Webinar 12-01-2014

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 13 1 and DOE, once we have a rule in effect, will do a 2 webinar explaining what that rule is and how it 3 applies for folks to -- who are being regulated to 4 understand really what their obligations are. 5 Now a big issue was how does the 6 Department become aware of possible violations of 7 the regional standards, and we all agreed the most 8 important aspect would be to accept recorded 9 violations, most like from either a servicing 10 contractor going into a home or a home inspector 11 going into a home or a knowledgeable consumer 12 looking at a unit and how would they report that 13 thing. And so DOE will accept complaints through 14 their Enforcement inbox, where we currently accept 15 complaints for all enforcement issues. And we'll 16 all set up a voicemail box for complaints to be 17 called in from those that don't want to use email 18 or don't have the ability to do so. Just like we 19 do in every other enforcement case, we're going to 20 give the complainant confidentiality to the 21 maximum that we can and we will look into all 22 credible complaints. So anything that actually

### Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Rulemaking Advisory Committee Webinar 12-01-2014

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 14 1 has any ability for us to follow up on, we will 2 follow-up on to at least look into further. 3 We were asked to consider the 4 possibility of doing proactive investigations and 5 so what the workgroup agreed to was the following 6 language would be "If funding is available, DOE 7 will consider conducting a survey of homes in any 8 region to determine if a noncompliant unit has 9 been installed." So that's something that, you 10 know, obviously due to funding limitations, we 11 can't guarantee anymore than that, but this is 12 what the group agreed to at least put forward as 13 some language to include in the preamble of a 14 possible rule. 15 Now when DOE initially offered this 16 premise in 2011, the idea of regional standards 17 enforcement, we discussed a lot of reporting 18 requirements. That seemed to be the most 19 burdensome issue was what would folks be required 20 to report. So in an effort to reduce the burden 21 on people who are compliant but still allow them 22 to be records kept so we could possibly

### Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Rulemaking Advisory Committee Webinar 12-01-2014

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 15 1 investigate cases wholesomely, we agreed in the 2 group to have a pretty robust record retention 3 requirement depending on who you are. So 4 contractors/dealers being the last person in the 5 chain before a consumer would have to keep records 6 for any installation they do in the Southeast or 7 the Southwest only. So in installations in the 8 regions where they have a standard higher than the 9 national standard, they would have to keep the 10 records. And it would depend on what they install 11 for the records they keep. For any split system, 12 they'd have to keep the outdoor condensing unit 13 manufacturer model and serial number; and for the 14 indoor coil air handler, the manufacturer and 15 model number, so not the serial number. This 16 would not include replacement coils such as 17 uncased coils. For single-package air 18 conditioners, they'd have to keep the manufacturer 19 model and serial number. Now we heard from a lot 20 of contractors or from the contracting lobby 21 groups that these are things that some contractors 22 keep already through receipts or other things, so

### Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Rulemaking Advisory Committee Webinar 12-01-2014

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 16 1 there shouldn't a whole lot of extra added paper 2 burden to this. They also need to keep the 3 location of the installation, the date of the 4 installation, and a party from whom they bought 5 the parts they installed from so basically, if 6 they bought it from a distributor, who that was 7 they bought it. So they need to keep track of 8 their receipts. 9 Distributors have a different 10 requirement in that for split-systems, they need 11 to keep the outdoor condensing unit manufacturer 12 model and serial but nothing for the indoor units 13 at all. The single- package, they need to keep 14 the manufacturer model and serial number and then 15 for all units, they need to keep the date it was 16 bought from the manufacturer, who they bought it 17 was, the date it was sold and who they sold it to 18 and if they delivered it, who the delivery address 19 would be. Now when talking to distributors, it 20 seemed there was going to be some more difficulty 21 in implementing this in their current systems, so 22 we agreed to implementation date of November 30th

### Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Rulemaking Advisory Committee Webinar 12-01-2014

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 17 1 of 2015. 2 For manufacturers, they're going to have 3 to keep records, which they by and large already 4 do, of split-system outdoor condensing units, 5 model and serial number, indoor coil or air 6 handlers, model numbers and then single-package 7 air conditioners, model and serial number as well 8 as when it was manufactured, when it was sold, and 9 who they sold it to. 10 Now, depending on who you are in the 11 chain, you have different requirements for how 12 long you keep the records, so contractors should 13 keep them for 48 months or 4 years; the 14 distributors for 54 months or 4-1/2 years; and 15 manufacturers for 5 years. Now they don't have to 16 keep actives, so if you have electronic records, 17 they can be archived as long as they're readily 18 retrievable when asked for by the Department. So 19 they requirement is that if the Department asks 20 you for a record, you have 30 days to give them to 21 us. And if you can't do it within 30 days, you 22 give us what you've got and you explain in writing

### Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Rulemaking Advisory Committee Webinar 12-01-2014

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 18 1 why you can't get the rest and when you're going 2 to get to us and then we may approve a request for 3 an extension. 4 We're trying not to create a requirement 5 which create uniforms or to have a searchable 6 electronic database. I mean if you are keeping 7 all your records by paper and that's what you do, 8 you can keep doing that as long as you're able to 9 get through them and find what you need to find 10 when we ask for it. 11 So, a big issue became well, when can 12 the Department actually ask us for records because 13 records requests can be pretty disruptive to our 14 regular business. What we agreed was that for DOE 15 to ask for records, we have to first have a 16 reasonable believe that there's actually something 17 going on and we have an ongoing investigation 18 happening. So to look at that whether we have 19 reasonable belief, the Department will look at 20 things like whether we have an address for an 21 attempted install or an actual installation of a 22 noncompliant unit or that we have some identifying

### Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Rulemaking Advisory Committee Webinar 12-01-2014

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 19 1 information for equipment; you know, whether we 2 have a model and serial number showing it's in the 3 wrong place or we have a picture or a copy of an 4 Energy Guide label, things that actually show that 5 there's something going on here, whether there's 6 actually been repeat complaints with the same 7 party so we know they have a history of being a 8 bad actor, and whether the person who's reporting 9 a violation we have a good history of, they 10 reported things in the past that have been 11 substantiated. These are the kinds of things that 12 would inform the Department, a sign they have a 13 reasonable belief to ask for someone's records in 14 the first place. 15 So once we are investigating something, 16 what will we find? So the question came back to 17 what would make a violation, what would be a 18 violation for the regional standards. And so that 19 depends also on what the -- what your role is in 20 the chain. If you're a distributor and you 21 knowingly sell a product to a contractor or dealer 22 knowing that they're going to go ahead and install

### Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Rulemaking Advisory Committee Webinar 12-01-2014

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 20 1 that product in violation of the regional 2 standard, that's a violation. Also, if you're a 3 distributor and you know someone is actually 4 routinely violating the standard and you sell that 5 person the project, that's also a violation. 6 From a contractor point of view, it 7 would be a violation to knowingly install 8 something that you know doesn't meet the regional 9 standards in a region where the standard applies. 10 So, to boil this down, a complete system that's 11 installed that is not certified as a complete 12 system meeting applicable standard, that would be 13 in violation. So you must install systems that 14 are certified when you install a system. Now a 15 system that has been discontinued, you can install 16 it as long as it wasn't discontinued because it 17 was not compliant. If a system was found to be 18 noncompliant by AHRI or by the Department at some 19 point and so it was discontinued, that cannot be 20 installed in the region. That would be a 21 noncompliant installation. 22 Also, if you're simply replacing the

### Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Rulemaking Advisory Committee Webinar 12-01-2014

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 21 1 outdoor unit and it's not certified as meeting the 2 minimal 14 standard or the EER standard, that's 3 not compliant. You have to make sure that when 4 you're replacing the outdoor unit that it is with 5 a unit that meets that 14 or that EER standard. 6 And any outdoor unit that has a certified 7 combination less the standard, as we discussed 8 before, can't be used in a replacement context. 9 So what does DOE do when they 10 investigate according to what the group agreed to? 11 An investigation may include discussion with the 12 end user, requests for retained records by any of 13 the parties in the chain, and discussions with the 14 alleged violators. If no violation was found, the 15 Department will issue what we call a case closed 16 letter which is between us and the party simply 17 saying we investigated this matter and we've 18 closed it, there's nothing to go on. 19 If we noncompliant installation in once 20 residence and the party remediates that one 21 violation, say it was a mistake and they 22 mistakenly installed something not compliant and

### Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Rulemaking Advisory Committee Webinar 12-01-2014

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 22 1 they fix it before we finish the case, then we'll 2 issue a case closed letter, once again not make a 3 public issue of it. But if we find someone has 4 made a violation and they don't fix that one off 5 violation, we will issue a public notice so folks 6 know that that person has actually violated the 7 regional standards. 8 However, we, once again, want to stress 9 the fact that there's remediation throughout this 10 process. So what does remediation mean? The group 11 agreed there's only one think that could fix what 12 was done wrong, that's to replace a unit that 13 doesn't meet the standards. So if you install or 14 sell a unit that's below the standard, you've got 15 to go ahead and replace that and it has to be at 16 the expense of the party that's in violation. So 17 that was to curb folks from making a warranty 18 claim or in some way trying to pass the buck on 19 mistakes or improper installations. So the party 20 who has made the improper installation has to pay 21 for it and take care of it themselves. 22 Now in order for us to verify the

### Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Rulemaking Advisory Committee Webinar 12-01-2014

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 23 1 remediation has been done properly, the Department 2 has to be given the serial number by the installer 3 and then they have to go back and track with the 4 manufacturer and distributors to make sure no 5 warranty claim was made or any of those sort of 6 (inaudible) claims they have there with the 7 distributors. If it's clear, then the Department 8 will issue a notice of remediation and the parties 9 will act as if nothing ever happened as far as a 10 violation. 11 Now if we found someone to be a routine 12 violator, as we'll discuss later, they have to 13 contact my office, the Office of Enforcement, and 14 a person will be listed in the notice letting them 15 know who that person who will, and talk to us 16 about who they can contact to get the product. 17 We'll then contact that distributor and 18 manufacturer and authorize sale for the purpose of 19 the remediation within three business days of 20 talking to the contractor. Once the remediation 21 is complete, they have to give documentations to 22 us -- the Department so we know what they did and

### Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Rulemaking Advisory Committee Webinar 12-01-2014

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 24 1 then we'll follow-up with the routine violator 2 within 30 days to make sure they actually followed 3 through with installing the remediation unit. 4 So what is a routine violator? This is 5 an important concept because the statute has said 6 to us that it's a prohibited act for manufacturers 7 to sell to folks who are routine violators. So we 8 talked a lot about in the working group about who 9 is a routine violator. So to determine whether a 10 violator, someone who made a violation is actually 11 a routine violator, DOE will consider a number of 12 factors including the number of violations, the 13 length of time over which they committed the 14 violations, the ratio of compliant and 15 noncompliant installations or sales, the 16 percentage of employees who are committing a 17 violation, the evidence of their effort and intent 18 to commit the violation, evidence of any training 19 or education they have on the regional standards, 20 and any subsequent remedial acts they took to cure 21 violations. 22 If DOE finds that someone is a routine

### Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Rulemaking Advisory Committee Webinar 12-01-2014

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 25 1 violator, we'll issue a public notice of finding 2 of routine violation and we'll post it on our 3 website and we'll also blast it to anyone who has 4 signed up for receiving those kind of emails. 5 The group also agreed that in 6 determining a routine violation, DOE shall 7 consider with the routine violation was limited to 8 a specific location. This is important for 9 companies that have multiple locations and it may 10 only be one location that's actually violating 11 where the other ones are compliant. If DOE, in 12 its discretion, finds a routine violation was 13 limited, DOE will in the public notice of routine 14 violation state that the prohibition on sales is 15 limited to that location. 16 Now there's also a right to appeal 17 administratively for the party that's found to be 18 a routine violator. The person who has been found 19 to be a routine violator will have 30 days to file 20 their appeal and then the DOE's Office of Hearing 21 Appeals will receive those appeals 22 administratively and have 45 days to decide

### Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Rulemaking Advisory Committee Webinar 12-01-2014

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 26 1 whether or not they accept the finding -- whether 2 they decide to grant or deny the appeal. 3 If someone remediates after being found 4 to be a routine violator, we can then remove them 5 from a routine violator list within 30 days of 6 them completing all remediations. We'll issue 7 such a notice saying, hey, the person's fixed 8 their problem, they're no longer a routine 9 violator. 10 Now labeling was a very important issue 11 and this is important because it provides the 12 public an easy way of deciding if something's not 13 compliant when it's installed. We currently have 14 the Energy Guide label for FTC. That label, the 15 group agreed, is not going to meet our needs given 16 our current enforcement structure. So the group 17 was has gone -- was going to go back and ask or 18 recommend that we ask FTC to initiate a rulemaking 19 to have a simplified label that will meet our 20 needs and be more understandable for the public. 21 Manufacturers also voluntarily agreed to 22 add a label to their outdoor units that will be

### Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Rulemaking Advisory Committee Webinar 12-01-2014

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 27 1 ruggedized and near the current nameplate so that 2 it would actually tell you if a unit cannot be 3 installed in an area. And they agreed to the 4 language of install prohibited in Southwest or 5 Southeast or Southeast and Southwest or to the 6 Southwest depending what the unit's standards are. 7 And so that will be very helpful, we think, from 8 all sides in helping to detect noncompliant 9 installations very easily and effectively. 10 DOE is going to talk with us in the 11 preamble for a rule and AHRI is going to make a 12 precondition of their certification program that 13 you actually install this label on your units in 14 the Southeast and the Southwest if they're 15 noncompliant in those regions. And this is all 16 going to be implemented by manufacturers by March 17 1st of 2015. 18 Finally, we discussed well, what could 19 we -- what could the manufacturer be held 20 financially liable for? So if DOE issues a notice 21 of finding of routine violation, manufacturers can 22 be fined for selling product to a routine

### Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Rulemaking Advisory Committee Webinar 12-01-2014

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 28 1 violator. Given the fact that it would be very 2 difficult to turn off things immediately, DOE is 3 going to give the manufacturer a grace period of 4 three business days, date of a notice to turn off 5 sales to the routine violator. Any sales after 6 that can be subject to a $200.00 fine. Understand 7 that if the manufacturer takes longer because of 8 certain reasons, DOE will consider that in looking 9 at our possible enforcement of a fine if the 10 manufacturer has made a good faith effort to kind 11 of turn off those sales. 12 Now the part of this found to be a 13 routine violator ahs three business days to file 14 what's called a notice of intent to appeal. The 15 person that notice is to be filed, they say, "hey, 16 still sell for me company, I'm appealing my 17 violation," if they file that notice, then the 18 manufacturer can keep selling to that person 19 during the time that appeal is being filed and 20 being heard. 21 If we still find that person to have 22 been guilty, if the appeal is denied, then the

### Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Rulemaking Advisory Committee Webinar 12-01-2014

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 29 1 manufacturer is liable for any sales to the 2 routine violator of product that was below the 3 regional standard. So thins above the regional 4 standard would be okay, but things that are below 5 the regional standard would be -- the manufacturer 6 would be held liable for selling. 7 There was a lot of dispute in the group 8 about what the term "product" really means here. 9 And the group agreed to some preamble language 10 because we couldn't actually come to a consensus 11 on what we meant here. The Department has a 12 particular idea that a product in a statute means 13 the product as defined which is everything within 14 430.32(c) and dealing with central air 15 conditioning and heat pumps. The group agreed to 16 the following language because the rest of the 17 group was not able to come to come to an 18 agreement. The working group had significant 19 discussions on the scope of the term "product" as 20 it relates to statutorily defined prohibited act. 21 The Department explained that it interpreted the 22 term "product" to include all classes of central

### Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Rulemaking Advisory Committee Webinar 12-01-2014

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 30 1 air conditioners and heat pumps found within 10 2 CFR 430.32(c). Ultimately, the working group 3 could not come to a consensus on whether the scope 4 of any prohibition on sales could be limited to 5 split system central air conditioners and single 6 package systems instead of this broad 7 interpretation. See the public meeting transcript 8 for October 24th, 2014. 9 Now if a product is determined 10 noncompliant -- so this is a separate idea -- as 11 folks may be familiar, the Department routinely 12 tests products and follows up with them with 13 asking the manufacturer to provide additional 14 product if we think something may be noncompliant. 15 So in the case where we tested a product rated at 16 14, thought it may be below 13 -- or be a 13.5 for 17 example, further testing determined that it was 18 actually a 13.5, what will we do? Well, if the 19 outdoor unit is the reason why it fails, then the 20 outdoor unit is responsible for it and the outdoor 21 unit manufacturer is responsible for all sales of 22 the unit unless they can show some of them were

### Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Rulemaking Advisory Committee Webinar 12-01-2014

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 31 1 actually in the region that was in the North. And 2 so the manufacturer bears the brunt of showing us 3 that some of those units were not sold in the 4 south. 5 If the reason why the unit fails is 6 because the indoor unit, when it's an ICM 7 involved, then the indoor coil manufacturer is 8 responsible for all the ICM indoor coils that are 9 sold out there in the South and they'll have to 10 show us which ones were not sold in the South. 11 There was some discussion adding 12 additional prohibitive acts allowing the 13 Department to charge monies to distributors or 14 contractors in addition to manufacturers. 15 Ultimately, we couldn't come to a consensus as a 16 group to adding a prohibitive act and so the group 17 agreed to add the following language to the 18 preamble of any rule. "The workgroup had 19 significant discussion on whether to include 20 additional prohibitive acts and ultimately could 21 not come to a consensus on whether to include 22 additional prohibitive acts. See the transcript

### Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Rulemaking Advisory Committee Webinar 12-01-2014

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 32 1 where we discussed that." There was one objection 2 to that -- The only objection to any part of this 3 -- from PACC and they have filed that objection 4 with us explaining why they object and we'll 5 include that within any rule. 6 So finally, everyone agreed to the 7 report as put together from ASRAC but all 8 nongovernmental participants initially approve 9 this report contingent upon the issuance of file 10 guidance on two documents the Department issued 11 early on in the process. These dealt with how to 12 rate and test (inaudible) air conditioning in 13 order to determine actually what the rated value 14 would be. So at the end of the day, everyone 15 agreed to unanimously vote on approval of this 16 report and put to you, to ASRAC for approval to 17 then put together a final rule from the 18 Department. 19 MR. CYMBALSKY: Okay. So, thanks, Doug. 20 So that's the presentation for the working group 21 on regional enforcement. At this time, if anyone 22 from ASRAC has any questions for Doug, now is a

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Appliance Standards Rulemaking Advisory Committee Webinar 12-01-2014

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 33 1 pretty good time to ask. 2 (No questions voiced.) 3 Okay. So otherwise, we'll put this up for a vote. 4 What I'm going to do is ask members of ASRAC who 5 would like to vote against accepting the term 6 sheet. I heard some feedback on the microphone. 7 I didn't know if anyone was trying to speak there. 8 MS. KLINE: This is actually Kelley 9 Kline. I did have a few questions I'd like to ask. 10 MR. CYMBALSKY: Okay. Getting a little 11 feedback but why don't you go for it. 12 MR. RAWALD: Can we bring the slides 13 back up, Jeremiah. 14 MR. FREEMAN: Sure. 15 MR. RAWALD: It would be easier if you 16 tell us what slide you want to refer to and then 17 that'll help us guide our discussion. Kelley? 18 MR. CYMBALSKY: All right, Kelley, go 19 for it. 20 MS. KLINE: I'm sorry, I'm having 21 trouble with the feedback here. I was not clear 22 on I guess it was slide 33 or 34. I think there

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Appliance Standards Rulemaking Advisory Committee Webinar 12-01-2014

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 34 1 was a lack of consensus about the scope of the 2 product (inaudible). 3 MR. RAWALD: Right. 4 MS. KLINE: What does that mean 5 (inaudible)? What's the (inaudible) of the working 6 group recommendation in -- 7 MR. RAWALD: Right. So this is 8 significant because the statute gives us a 9 prohibitive act and the prohibitive act says that 10 manufacturers can be fined for selling product to 11 those folks who are routine violators. So the 12 question became what does that work product mean. 13 And the Department, consistent with our regulatory 14 structure, has interpreted that term to mean the 15 product being central air conditioner or the heat 16 pumps; that's the product that we think it means. 17 The -- some of the working group members 18 wanted to have a more narrow interpretation of 19 that term so they asked to do that. Now the 20 Department had their own legal interpretation of 21 this term so we're sticking with that. But the 22 working group wanted to put in the preamble the

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Appliance Standards Rulemaking Advisory Committee Webinar 12-01-2014

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 35 1 fact that we had this discussion and that folks 2 had different opinions on it and allow the 3 different parties to then comment in the course of 4 any rulemaking about how they felt the word 5 "product" should be defined more narrowly or at 6 least the Department should use their 7 prosecutorial discretion, which they could do, to 8 narrowly construe the term "product" in enforcing 9 these regulations for sales of product by 10 manufacturers to those parties found to actually 11 be routine violators. So in any rule that comes 12 out based upon -- that currently will be decided, 13 the group understands that the Department's going 14 to take this broad scope of the term "product" or 15 the one we feel is consistent with our current 16 regulatory structure but they're going to allow 17 folks to provide comments that ask us to do this 18 more narrowing of the term. 19 MS. KLINE: Okay. Thank you. 20 MR. RAWALD: Sure. 21 MS. KLINE: I (inaudible) what 22 discussion (inaudible) manufacturers (inaudible) -

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Appliance Standards Rulemaking Advisory Committee Webinar 12-01-2014

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 36 1

- 2 COURT REPORTER: I don't understand her. 3 MS. KLINE: That seems exceptionally 4 short given that they may not have any line of 5 sight (inaudible) routine violator. 6 MR. RAWALD: Okay. So we only heard 7 part of that. 8 MR. FREEMAN: Kelley, can we try to 9 maybe ask you to try to turn down your speakers? 10 Maybe that could be the cause of feedback or if 11 you're -- are you dialed in by the phone and 12 connected through the speakers as well? 13 MS. KLINE: Yes, I am. 14 MR. RAWALD: That's better. Well, no. 15 MR. FREEMAN: If you're dialed in on the 16 phone, can you go to your webinar tool and switch 17 it to telephone? 18 UNIDENTIFIED MALE Okay. Maybe we can 19 try now? 20 MR. KROWKA: Now she's muted herself. 21 She has to enter her pin again. 22 MR. RAWALD: Kelley, you need to enter

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Appliance Standards Rulemaking Advisory Committee Webinar 12-01-2014

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 37 1 your pin again apparently. 2 MR. CYMBALSKY: So while we're waiting 3 for Kelley, does anyone else have a question? 4 Alternatively, you can email them quickly to me or 5 Ashley or Jeremiah. Any luck, Kelley? Prefer to 6 answer your questions before we vote on it, so 7 MR. FREEMAN: Kelley, how's that? 8 MS. KLINE: Can you hear me now? 9 MR. RAWALD: Much better. 10 MR. CYMBALSKY: Perfect. All right. 11 MS. KLINE: Okay. Thank you. Sorry 12 about that. 13 MR. CYMBALSKY: That's okay, go ahead. 14 MS. KLINE: My question was just whether 15 there had been any discussion about the three-day 16 time period for a position of no fees on 17 manufacturers -- 18 MR. RAWALD: Oh, yes. 19 MS. KLINE: -- given that it's -- yeah, 20 that seems exceptionally short to me given that 21 the repeat violator status would be for a third 22 party that manufacturers may not have line of

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Appliance Standards Rulemaking Advisory Committee Webinar 12-01-2014

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 38 1 sight to. 2 MR. RAWALD: Right. So let's be clear 3 though. So manufacturers can only be held liable 4 for sales to the next person in the chain. So if 5 a manufacturer sells exclusively to a distributor 6 and the distributor sells to a contractor, 7 manufacturers aren't going to be held liable for 8 sales of the distributor to that contractor. So 9 manufacturers have to turn off sales to the next 10 person in the chain that they're dealing with or 11 that are found to be a routine violator. So if a 12 distributor was found to be a routine violator and 13 the manufacturer sold them, they have to turn it 14 off. 15 Now three days is quick but that was 16 negotiated. So the Department's position was zero 17 and the manufacturers asked for more. And the 18 reason why we got that three days is because that 19 seemed like the minimal number of days by which a 20 manufacturer could reasonable turn everything off 21 and yet hopefully avoid a surge in sales. What we 22 didn't want to have happen was someone who was

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Appliance Standards Rulemaking Advisory Committee Webinar 12-01-2014

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 39 1 found to be a routine violator saying well, I'm 2 going to bulk up for the whole season before I get 3 turned off and so they buy within that 7- day 4 window or 8 -- or 10-day window everything they 5 need for the next 6 months. And so the Department 6 doesn't want that. 7 Now we understand that some folks may 8 not be able to technologically turn off all the 9 sales and so if we're bringing an action against 10 the company and they respond and say "Well, hey 11 Doug" -- for example, they're talking to me -- 12 "Doug, we tried our best and we managed to sell -- 13 we sold, unfortunately, 10 items on the fourth 14 day," we may cut them a break. We have discretion 15 to give them -- I mean according to our penalty 16 guidance to consider the efforts they were taking 17 to turn off sales. But we wanted to have the hard 18 and fast rule only that three day grace period 19 understanding that we may, in our discretion 20 depending on the facts and circumstances, go ahead 21 and consider and mitigate those -- the fine we 22 actually assess.

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Appliance Standards Rulemaking Advisory Committee Webinar 12-01-2014

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 40 1 MS. KLINE: What would the notice 2 mechanism be there -- 3 MR. RAWALD: So notice -- 4 MS. KLINE: -- for manufacturers? 5 MR. RAWALD: Right. So manufacturers 6 are going to have to sign up for this email blast, 7 right, so -- and that's just like they get the 8 current information we have now on rulemaking 9 activity, they'll receive an email saying "this 10 person was posted as a routine violator." The 11 Department will also post it on our public webpage 12 the day that someone -- the notice goes out so 13 that we have it out there so people can have (sic) 14 about it. So that's -- we're trying the maximum 15 possible to keep people informed of what's going 16 on out there. Anything else, Kelley? 17 MS. KLINE: Were there manufacturers on 18 the working group that had input into the three 19 days and had agreed to that piece of it? 20 MR. RAWALD: Yes. There were seven 21 manufacturers in the group. They were -- they 22 talked about the law. They conferenced about this

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Appliance Standards Rulemaking Advisory Committee Webinar 12-01-2014

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 41 1 a lot plus they also had the AHRI as an industry 2 group there as well. So they were very involved 3 in the discussion, so I would say that the 4 manufacturers understood the consequences. When I 5 explained the -- I mean, you know, listen, this is 6 a negotiated outcome so it's not what everyone 7 wants but it's not what the Department would like 8 in an ideal world either, so I think this is the 9 best compromise we can come up at the time given 10 all the inputs we had. 11 MS. KLINE: Okay, thank you. 12 MR. RAWALD: Uh-huh. 13 MR. CYMBALSKY: Okay, anymore questions 14 from the ASRAC committee? 15 MR. CASKEY: John, this is John Caskey 16 and I just -- since you're taking a quasi vote, I 17 just wanted to make sure you knew that Andrew 18 deLaski was also, you know, working through my 19 computer. 20 MR. CYMBALSKY: Yep, we got -- we double 21 counted for the first time in DOE history. 22 MR. CASKEY: (Inaudible.)

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Appliance Standards Rulemaking Advisory Committee Webinar 12-01-2014

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 42 1 (Laughter.) 2 UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Oh, come on. 3 MR. ANDREW: John, this is Andrew. Just 4 to chime in here, I want to thank Doug for his 5 work. I know this is a challenging discussion at 6 times for those who are part of the working group. 7 And I don't know who else on the phone here was 8 participating in this working group but I know it 9 was a diverse working group from who was selected, 10 who we selected for it and I just want to thank 11 everybody who put in a lot of long hours over some 12 very quickly-scheduled meetings in August13 September to get to this consensus, so thanks to 14 everybody who worked hard on this. 15 MR. RAWALD: Thanks. 16 MR. CYMBALSKY: Yeah. I would echo that 17 as well. This is John. I think definitely a lot 18 of people put in some long hours for this one. 19 Anybody else with questions or comments? 20 (Whereupon, no further questions 21 posed.) 22 MR. CYMBALSKY: So at this time, if

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Appliance Standards Rulemaking Advisory Committee Webinar 12-01-2014

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 43 1 there are any ASRAC members who wish to vote 2 against accepting the term sheet, please speak 3 now. 4 (Whereupon, no opposition voiced.) 5 MR. CYMBALSKY: Okay, hearing none, 6 we'll say that this motion has passed and that 7 ASRAC has accepted the term sheet developed by the 8 Regional Standards and Enforcement Working Group. 9 And DOE likes to thank everyone who participated 10 on that working group for the positive outcome. 11 We all appreciate it here. 12 MR. CYMBALSKY: Okay. We're going to 13 move -- switch gears and release Doug back to his 14 normal day job here. All right. So I'm going to 15 turn it over to John Caskey to sort of introduce a 16 little bit of the Manufactured Housing Working 17 Group and what they were up to over the summer. 18 Joe Hagerman, who is the DOE rep, actually has 19 fallen ill today so I'm going to try to pinch hit 20 for him best I can on presenting this but why 21 don't I turn it over to John for a few 22 introductory remarks as he was the ASRAC rep on

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Appliance Standards Rulemaking Advisory Committee Webinar 12-01-2014

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 44 1 this group. 2 MR. CASKEY: Thanks, John. This working 3 group was, I guess, authorized in July and then 4 between July and, I guess, October had six 5 meetings. And again, it was also, from my 6 perspective, a fairly diverse group of people 7 representing what I thought to be all the major 8 interests in the manufactured housing area. They 9 went through an awful lot of details. In this 10 particular case, we started with the foundation 11 related to the 2015 International Energy 12 Conservation Code, so basically we were looking at 13 that and looking where that was applicable to the 14 manufactured housing section. Then we also had a 15 lot of talk about the HUD standards relative to 16 housing and how they played into this. 17 So the group went through an awful lot 18 of information. They got a lot of analysis we've 19 done to support all this information. There was a 20 lot of discussion about the climate zone maps and 21 how you properly account for that. I think there 22 was a lot of good healthy discussion. It was a

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Appliance Standards Rulemaking Advisory Committee Webinar 12-01-2014

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 45 1 little slow getting started and then we started 2 making some pretty good progress. And I say "we" 3 but it's really the other members on the working 4 group. I was somewhat of an innocent bystander I 5 would say but was able to attend at least part of 6 most of the meetings and I think the group did a 7 good job. 8 They -- our original deadline was 9 October 1 and felt that we were sort of running a 10 little bit behind schedule making good progress so 11 I came to the ASHRAE group to ask for an extension 12 to November 1 and then we had an additional face13 to-face meeting in Denver that worked out very 14 fruitfully over the course of a couple days. So 15 again, I commend the group for sticking with it 16 and going through all this exercise to try and 17 come up with the best recommendations possible, 18 and I think there was pretty much -- very good 19 consensus around everything that was proposed or 20 discussed. I think there was some hold back -- 21 and I don't know if the HUD person might be on the 22 phone -- but a little bit of hold back on why you

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Appliance Standards Rulemaking Advisory Committee Webinar 12-01-2014

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 46 1 would need to do this water heaters en they felt 2 that, you know, HUD regulations already had some 3 of this information covered but the, I guess, rest 4 of the working group felt that it was important to 5 move forward with these proposals. 6 So I think that's pretty much it. I 7 complement the group. It worked hard to put this 8 together and I think all the recommendations are 9 well thought and deserve ASRAC's, hopefully, 10 approval. 11 MR. CYMBALSKY: Okay. Thanks, John. So 12 this is John at DOE again and yeah, I -- so I 13 attended a few of these meetings myself and, you 14 know, I think John highlighted a lot of the big 15 issues that faced the group. I think one in 16 particular that I remember hearing over and over 17 at some of the meetings was the issue of 18 affordability just because this product tends to 19 play out in a lower income space than maybe we're 20 used to in the appliance standards world, you 21 know, universally. But -- so I thought that was 22 something that was tackled rather well in the

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Appliance Standards Rulemaking Advisory Committee Webinar 12-01-2014

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 47 1 discussions as we went through it. 2 So anyway, this slide here just talks 3 about the charter. John already mentioned that we 4 extended by a month to get to a good solution. 5 The term sheet here, basically the cumulative 6 national energy savings we think is about three7 quarters of a quad for a 30- year period of 8 shipments. So that's kind of how we do things in 9 the appliance standards world in terms of 10 measuring the impact. The assumption was that 11 about 60,000 are shipped annually and operated for 12 30 years and again, we will refine all these 13 numbers as we develop a NOPR going forward. The 14 term sheet essentially realizes about a 20-30 15 percent reduction from today's annual energy 16 consumption for manufactured housing. 17 So again, as John mentioned, to echo it, 18 we hope that ASRAC accepts the term sheet that 19 will through here. So the first big thing and, 20 you know, what John already mentioned in there was 21 working off of the 2015 IECC for residential 22 buildings as it relates to manufactured housing.

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Appliance Standards Rulemaking Advisory Committee Webinar 12-01-2014

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 48 1 So the group went through section-by-section and 2 pulled out the areas that they thought were 3 appropriate to change but here you can see the 4 vote outcome. Out of all the members, we had one 5 no vote and two abstentions so Appendix A the Term 6 Sheet, it contains a line-by-line review of the 7 2015 IECC and makes modifications. 8 Another big issue was the climate zones 9 and I know we spent probably a couple -- a few 10 meetings discussing this but the recommendation, 11 the working group recommends that the energy 12 efficiency standards be based on the four climate 13 zones depicted below. DOE will determine a few of 14 the states when it develops the NOPR so that being 15 Alaska, Hawaii and the territories. And then the 16 working group further recommended the naming 17 conventions, 1A, 1B, 2 and 3. So you can see the 18 map below, we had -- on the first vote, we had one 19 yes and one -- I mean one "no" and one abstention 20 on October 23rd. And then the next day, we came 21 back to rename them and we had two abstentions. 22 So, the thermal envelope pathways to

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Appliance Standards Rulemaking Advisory Committee Webinar 12-01-2014

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 49 1 compliance, this was an important part. We -- the 2 working group recommends allowing both the 3 prescriptive and a performance path option to 4 ensure the energy efficiency going forward. Both 5 thermal envelope compliance pathways would also 6 include additional mandatory requirements. So 7 here we had no "no" votes and two abstentions and 8 that vote was taken early October. 9 And so here is the prescriptive path 10 option. I am not going to, obviously, read through 11 all the numbers in the table, but you can see what 12 the prescriptive would path would be by the 13 climate zone and you can see to the far right, 14 we're still working out some of the details of the 15 glazing fenestration, so the solar heat gain co16 efficient. For this one, we had one "no" vote and 17 one abstention. 18 Next, it's the prescriptive path option 19 following the footnotes for the prescriptive path, 20 we saw below -- again, I'm not going to read 21 through these but here the vote was one "no" and 22 two abstentions. Again, these are all relative to

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Appliance Standards Rulemaking Advisory Committee Webinar 12-01-2014

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 50 1 the table up here. 2 Again, for the prescriptive path option, 3 some U-value alternatives for ceiling, walls and 4 floors seen below. Like the others, we had one 5 "no" and one abstention. 6 Performance path option, the working 7 group recommends that the U-values in Table 6.1, 8 the solar heat gain co-efficient requirement shall 9 be met in addition to the U-value and area 10 weighted average solar heat gain co-efficient 11 South satisfy the glaze fenestration, solar heat 12 gain co-efficient requirements of 5.1. 13 So shorthand, we recommended the 14 Battelle method on the bottom. Again, you can see 15 the U-values for the performance path. Again, 16 here, as with many of the others, on the top, you 17 see one "no" vote, two abstentions, and then on 18 the bottom, one "no," one abstention. 19 So for envelope sealing, so here -- so 20 provide the tightness of five air changes per hour 21 when depressurized to 50 Pascals. The working 22 group recommends that all manufactured homes would

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Appliance Standards Rulemaking Advisory Committee Webinar 12-01-2014

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 51 1 be required to ensure that those four items are 2 met. And we also add the consideration that DOE 3 should conduct testing after the compliance date 4 to assess this -- the effectiveness of the visual 5 requirements. The working group did not recommend 6 direct testing of envelope sealing and here, the 7 vote was a little bit different, 15 "yes," 2 "no," 8 and then 5 abstentions. 9 And then here's items 5, 6, and 7 for 10 the sealing, again, just adding to what you saw up 11 here. I'm not going to read through every detail 12 here. Same vote. 13 Okay, duct sealing and hot water pipe 14 insulation, the working group recommended duct 15 leakage not be greater than 4 cubic feet per 16 minute per 100 square feet of floor area at a 25 17 Pascal test pressure. And then here we had a vote 18 of 19 "yes," no "nos," 3 abstentions. And that 19 all hot water pipes outside condition space be 20 required to be insulated at least R-3. And the 21 vote there, no "no" votes and five abstentions. 22 So, there are some nonbinding working

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Appliance Standards Rulemaking Advisory Committee Webinar 12-01-2014

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 52 1 group recommendations and I only bring this up -- 2 it's not part of, obviously, what's being put 3 forth to ASRAC here today but there were some 4 other recommendations that were made outside the 5 scope of the working group and just thought it was 6 important that we bring these to the attention for 7 future work potentially. So the working group 8 recommended that in the future, DOE charter -- or 9 not DOE but ASRAC charter a new working group to 10 develop recommendations regarding certification 11 testing and enforcement. DOE would support this 12 activity should we bring it forward to ASRAC in 13 the future but at this time, I think we're going 14 to focus on developing the NOPR and maybe bring 15 this back up at a later date. 16 The second item was that the working 17 group recommended that DOE modify the REScheck 18 software application to specifically address 19 manufactured housing. The working group reserved 20 that both inputs and calculation assumptions would 21 require modification to account for the factory 22 construction of manufactured homes. The modified

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Appliance Standards Rulemaking Advisory Committee Webinar 12-01-2014

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 53 1 application would also provide recommendations for 2 equipment sizing. So for this, DOE supports it -- 3 the premise based on funding levels so this is 4 something we'll keep our eye on here. 5 And then the working group also 6 recommended DOE consider development of a duct 7 sizing tool potentially based on the Air 8 Conditioning Contractors of America, ACCA manual 9 D. And DOE does not take a position here. 10 We also -- the working group had three 11 recommendations involving building thermal 12 envelope ceiling. This basically asked us to 13 conduct some testing on the air changes, also 14 conduct analysis to assess potential moisture 15 concerns and consider approaches to address the 16 scenario in which exterior surface wall cannot be 17 sealed. So those are the three other things that 18 DOE did not take a position on. 19 And then there were some issues 20 regarding labeling and education. You can see 21 below. And we think we could work with the 22 appropriate folks on the labeling. The group also

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Appliance Standards Rulemaking Advisory Committee Webinar 12-01-2014

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 54 1 recommended DOE work outside of its normal area of 2 regulation to support grants and subsidies, 3 etcetera to increase the efficiency for 4 manufactured housing. Again, more education 5 programs and the working group recommends DOE 6 consider certain revisions to the HUD regulations 7 at subpart F of the CFR. DOE should discuss these 8 recommendations with HUD to address duplications 9 and inconsistencies between the current HUD and 10 DOE's eventual code. And so again, going forward, 11 we will take into consideration all of these 12 recommendations. 13 And then here I'll just throw up the 14 members of the working group but essentially, 15 that's it in a nutshell of what we did. I think 16 the group worked very hard. I think they tackled 17 some pretty big issues that have existed and 18 persisted in this industry, and I commend everyone 19 who participated for really coming together here 20 and coming up with the term sheet. 21 So at this point, I will open it up to 22 ASRAC committee members for questions.

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Appliance Standards Rulemaking Advisory Committee Webinar 12-01-2014

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 55 1 (Whereupon, no questions posed.) 2 MR. CYMBALSKY: Okay. 3 MR. DELASKI: John, its Andrew. I don't 4 have any questions. I just would again thank the 5 working group, thanks to John for being the ASRAC 6 rep and to Joe for leading the effort for the DOE 7 and to the other 20-odd members of the committee 8 for what is a very detailed recommendation as when 9 compared to some of others that have come before 10 us, and it's -- clearly, a lot of work went into 11 resolving a lot of difficult or detailed issues. 12 And I guess we're all aware the Department's -- 13 how far behind its legal deadline on this one, so 14 it's great that this group was able to come 15 together to help DOE come up with a proposal to 16 fulfill its statutory obligation. 17 MR. CYMBALSKY: Thanks. I would echo 18 that I think. This is very detailed and, you 19 know, DOE saw this is an opportunity for this 20 vehicle to be negotiated, you know, ASRAC being 21 the vehicle to move this rule forward. 22 Okay. So if no one else has any

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Appliance Standards Rulemaking Advisory Committee Webinar 12-01-2014

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 56 1 questions from ASRAC, again, I'll pose the 2 question the same way. Are there any members of 3 ASRAC who would like to vote against accepting the 4 term sheet? 5 (Whereupon, no opposition voiced.) 6 MR. CYMBALSKY: Okay. Hearing and 7 seeing none, ASRAC has voted "yes" to accepting 8 the Term Sheet of the Manufactured Housing Working 9 Group. Thanks to everyone for participating on 10 this working group. Again, I think this was 11 another example of a lot of hard work over the 12 course of the summer. I know it's hard to get 13 everyone together but I do -- the Department in 14 particular -- me in particular and the Department 15 appreciate all the hard work here in getting this 16 done. 17 Look for a NOPR on the bookshelf soon, I 18 hope, so thanks. So at this point, we'll switch 19 gears from what we've done to what we -- take a 20 more forward looking look at potential working 21 group formation. So before I do this little Deck 22 I have up here, I think, you know, Joe's not here.

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Appliance Standards Rulemaking Advisory Committee Webinar 12-01-2014

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 57 1 I'm going to try to slog through this best I can 2 but I'd first give the opportunity to any other 3 ASRAC members, if they have any ideas for 4 formations of working groups, it will give my 5 voice a little bit of a break. If anyone else has 6 any ideas for working groups, we'll open it up to 7 you all. 8 MR. DELASKI: John, its Andrew deLaski. 9 I don't have any specific recommendations at this 10 time or proposals for new working groups but it 11 strikes me that it's been quite a while since the 12 ASRAC committee had an in-person meeting and that 13 I think we had an initial when the ASRAC was 14 formed and now with some changes in membership, it 15 strikes me that it would be useful perhaps early 16 in the new year to -- for the ASRAC committee to 17 have an in-person meeting and to use that as an 18 opportunity to flesh out some of the ideas that we 19 floated at some of our earlier meetings but 20 perhaps haven't had the opportunity to fully 21 develop yet. 22 You know, for example, I think John, at

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Appliance Standards Rulemaking Advisory Committee Webinar 12-01-2014

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 58 1 one point, we had raised the notion of working on 2 approaches that would facilitate systems 3 approaches and there were some other ideas that I 4 think were floated Bureau never fully -- never got 5 to the point where -- haven't gotten to the point 6 yet where they sent a charter for a working group 7 and I think that in terms of our charter, as the 8 parent committee, that we should take on this task 9 a little bit more in earnest of developing ideas 10 that would help to guide the department in the 11 program and that we could do that probably more 12 effectively by actually meeting and having an in13 person meeting sometime early in the new year. 14 MR. CYMBALSKY: Yeah. Actually, I think 15 that's a great idea. I think once we get the new 16 members on board is probably a great time to do 17 that. Unfortunately, I can't predict exactly when 18 that package will be signed off on but assuming it 19 gets down this month, I think towards the middle 20 or end of January is probably a reasonable time to 21 have that. Might leak into February but I think 22 that's a good idea.

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Appliance Standards Rulemaking Advisory Committee Webinar 12-01-2014

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 59 1 Did anyone else on the -- does anyone 2 else on the committee think that's a good idea, to 3 try to flesh out some of those ideas? 4 MR. CASKEY: This is John Caskey. I 5 think it's a great idea. I think would be helpful 6 that -- it seemed like at one point, we did a 7 little bit more brainstorming and hopefully 8 somebody kept those notes, so it would be good to 9 distribute that again prior to a face-to-face 10 meeting. 11 MR. CYMBALSKY: Yeah. 12 MR. ECKMAN: This is Tom Eckman. I 13 agree. I think it's a really good idea to friend 14 with the new group, reform and take a look back at 15 potential avenues for moving the standards process 16 forward, so 17 MR. CYMBALSKY: Okay. So I mean I'll 18 put that on DOE to make sure that that happens. 19 We really wanted to have this as an in-person 20 meeting and it was evident it was going to be very 21 difficult in a room so once the holidays are clear 22 and we move to the new year, hopefully that won't

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Appliance Standards Rulemaking Advisory Committee Webinar 12-01-2014

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 60 1 be such an issue. So we will make the next 2 meeting an in-person meeting and we will have the 3 new membership on board by then. 4 Any other ideas of working groups anyone 5 wants to float out there? I mean I've been -- you 6 know, I've been having my pulse on a few of the 7 different rulemakings we have going on and I think 8 there are a couple out there that may be looming, 9 a couple, a few but I don't think we're just quite 10 ready there so I won't bring it up. But I think 11 with a little nudging in the new year and some 12 work by DOE of putting out some analysis, maybe 13 we'll get -- you know, get a couple more products 14 into the fold here. That's at least my hope. 15 Okay. So if there's nothing else, I 16 will give the DOE pitch for the creation of a 17 working group. And so this is a little bit -- a 18 little different than what -- you know, it's not 19 an appliance standards per se but a lot of what's 20 attracting attention these days is, you know, 21 connected equipment and, you know, how it relates 22 to standards, how it relates to potential energy

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Appliance Standards Rulemaking Advisory Committee Webinar 12-01-2014

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 61 1 savings and other benefits that typically aren't 2 captured by appliance standards but something 3 that, you know, if done the right way and thought 4 about correctly could provide a good platform for 5 energy savings going forward. 6 So Joe put together this Deck and he 7 sort of champions this effort and so I'm going to 8 do my best to speak for him but I'm obviously an 9 expert in this area whatsoever. But anyway, as we 10 see on the slide here, you know, "What is 11 characterization?" It's the measurement or 12 evaluation of the physical or informational 13 responses that connected equipment can provide. 14 And we can go through some examples here. You 15 know, you can do the physical characterizations 16 and you could do informational and there are lots 17 of different ways, you know, to measure the impact 18 here. But, you know, characterization is a 19 voluntary process. It is not annual efficiency 20 testing or a labeling or a rating program such as 21 Energy Star or test procedure development. 22 Why is it important? So correctly

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Appliance Standards Rulemaking Advisory Committee Webinar 12-01-2014

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 62 1 characterizing connected equipment, doing it 2 objectively, engagement of connecting equipment 3 will enable the integration of intermittent 4 renewable resources at scale, enhance grid 5 reliability while unlocking potential new value 6 streams for homebuilders, homeowners, and 7 operators. 8 Examples of the benefits of proper 9 characterization include helping to establish a 10 scalable market for connected equipment, deliver 11 grid services, informed population analyses of 12 scales effects for utilities to rely on this 13 equipment to deliver services, to protect consumer 14 value, to protect manufacturers -- an example of 15 that is the violation of warranties -- and promote 16 innovation by developing a level playing field for 17 evaluating what services can be delivered through 18 this equipment. 19 So to date we've had a bunch of public 20 meetings on this subject and we've also issued a 21 framework for characterizing connected equipment 22 that you see in the Federal Register. You know,

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Appliance Standards Rulemaking Advisory Committee Webinar 12-01-2014

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 63 1 what we found through these public meetings is 2 that there's a general support for DOE to act as a 3 convener or industry and stakeholders to develop 4 characterization protocols through an open 5 transparent voluntary consensus process. So these 6 are really the main reasons why we think this is 7 something we could form a working group around. 8 So what's the ask? DOE's ask of ASRAC 9 is to form a working group as a vehicle for 10 engaging industry in an open voluntary consensus 11 process to develop characterization protocols. 12 The real idea here is to try to, you know, sort of 13 herd the cats and get everyone moving in a unified 14 direction. We think there is overwhelming support 15 by both industry and industry encouraged DOE to 16 employ a consensus and discussing and develop this 17 area of concentration since it is an emerging 18 area. What we think a charter could look like and 19 achieve consensus on is first, create a 20 prioritized list of equipment for which DOE should 21 consider developing characterization protocols, 22 then complete characterization protocols for two

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Appliance Standards Rulemaking Advisory Committee Webinar 12-01-2014

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 64 1 highest priority equipment types on the 2 prioritized list, create a position paper on the 3 industry's and utility's need for connected 4 equipment which includes a discussion of important 5 sensitivities as identified by industry during the 6 DOE public meeting and comment process. We're 7 hoping to convene over the first 10 or so months 8 of 2015 and propose that DOE seek nominations by 9 the -- for working group members shall be provided 10 to ASRAC no later than December 31st. That should 11 say 2014 I do believe since we want to get started 12 sooner than later. And being ambitious, as we 13 always are, we were hoping that the first meeting 14 can be co-located at the ASHRAE winter meeting in 15 Chicago in late January. 16 So, unless -- I don't think we need to 17 go into the backup slides but that's what we're 18 throwing out there. And I think this slide in 19 particular is the most important so at this point, 20 I'll open up to any questions that the committee 21 may have. Anybody think this is a good idea, bad 22 idea, comfort level?

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Appliance Standards Rulemaking Advisory Committee Webinar 12-01-2014

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 65 1 MR. ECKMAN: John, this Tom Eckman. 2 Speaking from a utility planning perspective, it 3 would be great to have standardized protocols for 4 characterization that industry endorsed, so I 5 think moving forward in this area, whether it's 6 ASRAC or not, is a necessary ingredient of 7 improving grid reliability, reducing costs, and a 8 variety of other things besides taking advantage 9 of what we might be able to do with appliance 10 efficiency as part of that. 11 MR. CYMBALSKY: Thanks, Tom. Anybody 12 else, any reactions? I could see all the people 13 who participated out in Denver in April. I think 14 we've got a good list of people interested in 15 this. I think it's a good way -- you know, could 16 be a good way of moving this process forward, 17 particularly in a setting that there could be a 18 lot of good open back and forth discussion. 19 MR. DELASKI: This is Andrew, John. I 20 also -- I think it's a good idea. I did 21 participate in one on the meetings that DOE held, 22 the one at NREL back in the spring and it struck

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Appliance Standards Rulemaking Advisory Committee Webinar 12-01-2014

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 66 1 me as being a constructive conversation but one 2 that, you know, could benefit from a bit more 3 focus on. I -- one question in terms of how you 4 would scope the working group, I think we've 5 typically -- I think the charter is no more than 6 25 people; is that right? 7 MR. CYMBALSKY: That's right. 8 MR. DELASKI: You know, and this is a 9 topic they could touch on, the interest of a lot 10 of various stakeholders. And I think in your 11 slides you suggested that maybe there would be -- 12 the intent would be to focus on one or two 13 products, and it strikes me that that might -- 14 which products? What would come first, the 15 working group or the products to focus on? 16 MS. ARMSTRONG: Well, I think our -- 17 this is Ashley. I think originally, the idea was 18 that the working group would come first and 19 develop a list and rank the products for which the 20 concentration would be. Now I think we could do 21 that differently. ASRAC could also have a 22 discussion and rank the products and then limit

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Appliance Standards Rulemaking Advisory Committee Webinar 12-01-2014

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 67 1 the working group's actions to the first couple of 2 products that ASRAC feels important just to 3 minimize, I guess, the scope a little bit. 4 MR. DELASKI: Yeah. My thought is that 5 clearly, you need products experts -- 6 MS. ARMSTRONG: Yeah. 7 MR. DELASKI: -- on the products on 8 which you're going to focus, so 9 MS. ARMSTRONG: Yeah, I mean I think 10 what you're hearing from DOE is that we need input 11 into the list because we're hearing from a variety 12 of different stakeholders that this is important 13 and obviously, we want to, you know, move down the 14 path of investigating it but we can't investigate 15 all products at once. So I think the ask is which 16 products are the most important or most right for 17 looking into this issue. And maybe ASRAC can 18 answer that question. I don't know. 19 MR. CASKEY: Yeah. So this is John 20 Caskey. So I think pursuing this makes some sense 21 to me. I'm still having a little bit of a hard 22 time figuring out exactly what the scope is. If

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Appliance Standards Rulemaking Advisory Committee Webinar 12-01-2014

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 68 1 the scope is really to try and characterize the 2 connected equipment, then, you know, if there's 3 some sort of protocol or something like that, that 4 makes some sense not to manage the the scope. You 5 start talking about services, I don't know if 6 we're talking about, you know, frequency and 7 voltage stability and things like that. And 8 certainly, that gets into a pretty complicated 9 area pretty quickly and the scope could be pretty 10 comprehensive and we might never make any 11 progress. 12 So, you know, I'm a big believer that 13 the narrower the scope, the greater the likelihood 14 is of coming to some consensus or some conclusion. 15 So for me, I would just need to understand the 16 theory a little bit more and understand exactly 17 what is a reasonable scope that's manageable to 18 bite off and still, you know, create some 19 progress. 20 MR. CYMBALSKY: Yeah, so John, so the 21 first three bullets here that you see on your 22 screen, in the middle section, I mean do you find

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Appliance Standards Rulemaking Advisory Committee Webinar 12-01-2014

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 69 1 these three sub bullets under the working group 2 charter too broad a scope? I feel like the first 3 two seem pretty straightforward and then the third 4 is, you know, just committing to a position paper, 5 not necessarily anything more than that. 6 MR. CASKEY: So that sounds possible or 7 meaningful as long as it doesn't get into the 8 services very much and it just gets into the 9 equipment itself. 10 MR. CYMBALSKY: Right. Yeah, I think 11 we -- they'd have to -- yeah, I mean I think if we 12 sort of have a charter that reads something like 13 this, that -- I see where you're going with your 14 comment and I'm thinking that the working group 15 could probably know quickly whether or not they're 16 going to far afield of where they can get 17 consensus on but 18 MR. CASKEY: Yeah. Then depending on 19 the distribution of participants and the diversity 20 of participants, I mean you can't always have, you 21 know, I make product A so I'm going to lobby to 22 get my product A on the list and some other

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Appliance Standards Rulemaking Advisory Committee Webinar 12-01-2014

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 70 1 manufacturer is going to lobby for their product 2 and somebody else is going to lobby for their 3 product. So if you have a lot of, you know, just 4 manufacturers, it seems like it might be hard to 5 get away from that self-serving -- I hate to say 6 that the manufacturer is sort of representative -- 7 but to get away from the self- serving thing 8 about, you know, me wanting to get my product on 9 the list, it may be an uphill battle trying to get 10 those top two highest priority pieces of 11 equipment. 12 MR. DELASKI: But that -- this is Andrew 13 again -- that suggests that as its proposed, that 14 that process may be one that's best dealt with 15 through a working group as opposed to someone 16 dictating it. You know, the working group would 17 have to sort through what are the criteria that 18 you use the products to prioritize. That be one 19 of the tasks that would have to be completed under 20 item two, criteria for prioritization and out of 21 that would fall what equipment type. 22 MR. PETERSON: Andrew, that's a good

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Appliance Standards Rulemaking Advisory Committee Webinar 12-01-2014

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 71 1 suggestion. This is Kent. One consideration 2 might be that you want to have the first working 3 group either work on residential type appliances 4 and products versus commercial or nonresidential 5 if you want to narrow the scope a little bit and 6 focus in on certain products. They are very 7 different. 8 MR. CASKEY: This is John Caskey. So I 9 could certainly support the proposal that we see 10 in front of us here and I think that would be 11 beneficial. Another way to do it, I think that 12 Andrew had sort of touched on it is if we have our 13 face-to-face ASRAC meeting in, you know, say late 14 January or early February, if we could have 15 brainstorming session to go through what the 16 possibilities are and then identify, you know, a 17 couple of the high priority areas and then sort of 18 pass that on as the charter for the working group, 19 that's another way to do it. And I personally 20 don't see that, you know, one way is clearer in my 21 mind than the other, so I could really support 22 either direction. I sound like a politician.

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Appliance Standards Rulemaking Advisory Committee Webinar 12-01-2014

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 72 1 MR. CYMBALSKY: Well, you're in the 2 right town for that. 3 (Laughter.) 4 MS. KLINE: Yes. This is Kelley Kline. 5 Just to build on that and what Andrew said 6 earlier, I think that may be a good approach 7 because I struggle a little bit with the second 8 step in terms of just the working group makeup and 9 having the right people on the committee depending 10 on the product focus at the top -- of the top two. 11 And if we don't know that at the stage where the 12 committee is being formed, I just wonder if we're 13 going to have some trouble finding the right mix. 14 MR. DELASKI: So this is Andrew again. 15 I guess I put that back. I guess maybe this is a 16 question that we would need Joe for but the slide 17 deck said that there was industry support for 18 creating this working group and, you know, I don't 19 know which industry or where is that overwhelming 20 support, right. So I saw the company logo had 21 popped up earlier and there's a suggestion that 22 the meeting be held in concert with the ASHRAE

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Appliance Standards Rulemaking Advisory Committee Webinar 12-01-2014

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 73 1 meeting, so that tells us that, you know, DOE's 2 already done a lot of work through these meetings 3 thus far and you seem to have a sense of who -- 4 maybe you already have -- maybe you already know, 5 right, and if you do, then, you know, maybe that 6 would -- you should tell us and if that's the 7 case, then that would -- that might help you to 8 narrow down the scope without the benefit, without 9 needing ASRAC to spend more time on it. 10 MR. CYMBALSKY: Yeah, that's a good 11 point. Unfortunately, I can't speak for Joe and I 12 -- I'm easily ready to say I don't know when I 13 don't know something and I don't know. 14 You know, I do know we've met with a 15 bunch of industries and specific companies on this 16 issue and, you know, looking at these logos, 17 they're the ones that I've -- that I'm familiar 18 with so, you know, I'm happy to take home a little 19 homework and not rush this along if we don't have 20 to. You know, I've heard -- 21 MR. DELASKI: That seems wise to me. I 22 think we want to get the right people in working

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Appliance Standards Rulemaking Advisory Committee Webinar 12-01-2014

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 74 1 group. 2 MR. CYMBALSKY: Yeah -- no, I agree. 3 You know, I think if our group, if the ASRAC group 4 in January comes up with the two products, I think 5 that definitely gets rid of some, you know, what 6 John Caskey described early on in a process of a 7 working group. And then from a self-serving point 8 of view, it gives us some fresh blood to put on 9 the working group come January. 10 MR. DELASKI: So this is Andrew again. 11 I also would ask, you know, perhaps for DOE to 12 prepare it with some guidance or your thoughts on 13 what are -- you know, maybe some work done through 14 over the past 12 months, you know, what are the 15 kind of criteria that you'd be recommending that 16 we use to, you know, help select products would 17 get focus. That would help us. 18 MR. CYMBALSKY: Okay. 19 MR. DELASKI: You know, I mean certain 20 products just fall out. You know, when I was at 21 the meeting that I attended back in Denver, there 22 was a preponderance of HVAC manufacturers and

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Appliance Standards Rulemaking Advisory Committee Webinar 12-01-2014

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 75 1 suppliers in the HVAC industry in attendance and, 2 you know, maybe that's the focus but I guess I 3 need to hear a little bit more about that. 4 MR. CYMBALSKY: Yep, that's a fair ask. 5 MR. DELASKI: Then John Caskey made 6 another good point here -- a lot of water heater 7 manufacturers as well and I know at least the 8 public material to date, the Department has said 9 it would not want to consider water heaters as 10 part of this process. And the question is that 11 does that still hold or is there a possibility to 12 address water heaters? 13 MR. CYMBALSKY: So what this slide just 14 shows is people who attended the meeting. It 15 doesn't -- don't read into anything more than 16 that. 17 MR. DELASKI: Okay. 18 MR. CYMBALSKY: We certainly don't want 19 to talk about water heaters at the present moment 20 given the open rulemaking there. 21 Okay. So I think we have some homework 22 and I appreciate those comments. I think they are

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Appliance Standards Rulemaking Advisory Committee Webinar 12-01-2014

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 76 1 actually very helpful. So what we'll take back is 2 to develop this set of criteria to help the ASRAC 3 committee to decide in its next meeting if we want 4 to go forward, here, part of the charter would be 5 to list the products that the working group should 6 consider. Did I characterize that correctly? 7 MR. DELASKI: That seems right to me. 8 MR. CYMBALSKY: Okay, so running a 9 little bit ahead of schedule. Unless anyone has 10 anything further, it's going to be time to open it 11 up to the public. Anyone else from ASRAC? 12 (No response.) 13 MR. CYMBALSKY: Okay. So, you know, I 14 just want to say this could be a record for DOE. 15 We had over 1,000 people on the webinar. Did I 16 read the number right? 17 MR. KROWKA: Fifty-eight. 18 MR. CYMBALSKY: Okay. Or I was over by 19 940. I guess we more than double counted that 20 time, John. All right. So we're going to open it 21 up. I don't know how this is going to work with 22 the -- are we going to raise hands? How are we --

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Appliance Standards Rulemaking Advisory Committee Webinar 12-01-2014

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 77 1 MS. ARMSTRONG: Just raise hands. 2 MR. CYMBALSKY: We're going to raise 3 hands? 4 MS. ARMSTRONG: Yeah. 5 MR. CYMBALSKY: Okay. So we'll -- you 6 raise your hand and we will unmute you, so anyone 7 from the public, now is your chance. Please raise 8 your hand and we will unmute you. 9 (Whereupon, no questions from the 10 public posed.) 11 Okay. I do not see anyone raising their hands so 12 we're going to conclude the meeting at this point. 13 Thank you, everyone for participating. Thanks for 14 voting on the term sheets. Like I said, in the 15 next few weeks, we hope to get the new membership 16 firmed up. And again, thanks to the three members 17 who have served over the past couple of years -- 18 couple-few years. We really do appreciate it. We 19 will let everyone know when the next meeting will 20 be sometime in the new year. 21 UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Thanks, John. 22 MR. CYMBALSKY: Okay, thank you.

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Appliance Standards Rulemaking Advisory Committee Webinar 12-01-2014

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 78 1 UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Thanks. 2 UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Thanks, John, and 3 good work to the working -- good job working 4 groups. 5 Whereupon, at 4:30 p.m., the meeting was 6 adjourned.) 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22

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Appliance Standards Rulemaking Advisory Committee Webinar 12-01-2014

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 79 1 CERTIFICATE OF NOTARY PUBLIC 2 I, NATASHA THOMAS, the officer before whom the 3 foregoing hearing was taken, do hereby certify 4 that the testimony appearing in the foregoing 5 hearing was taken by me in audio recording and 6 thereafter reduced to typewriting under my 7 supervision; that said transcription is a true 8 record of the proceedings; that I am neither 9 counsel for, related to, nor employed by any of 10 the parties to the action in which this deposition 11 was taken; and, further, that I am not a relative 12 or employee of any counsel or attorney employed by 13 the parties hereto, nor financially or otherwise 14 interested in the outcome of this action. 15 16 17 18

_________________________________ 19 NATASHA THOMAS Notary Public in and for the 20 STATE OF MARYLAND 21 22

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Appliance Standards Rulemaking Advisory Committee Webinar 12-01-2014

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 80 1 CERTIFICATE OF TRANSCRIPTION 2 3 4 I, LUCY T. TURNBULL, hereby certify that 5 I am not the Court Reporter who reported the 6 following proceeding and that I have typed the 7 transcript of this proceeding using the Court 8 Reporter's notes and recordings. 9 The foregoing/attached transcript is a 10 true, correct, and complete transcription of said 11 proceeding. 12 13 14 15 December 4, 2014 _________________________ Date LUCY T. TURNBULL, CET-743 16 Transcriptionist 17 18 19 20 21 22Capital Reporting Company Appliance Standards Rulemaking Advisory Committee Webinar 12-01-2014 Page 1

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 $ $200.00 28:6 1 1 1:8 45:9,12 1,000 76:15 10 30:1 39:13 64:7 100 51:16 10-day39:4 12 74:14 13 30:16 13.5 30:16,18 14 8:5,9,13 9:14 21:2,5 30:16 15 51:7 19 51:18 1A48:17 1B 48:17 1st27:17 2 2 48:17 51:7 2011 14:16 2014 1:8 30:8 64:11 80:15 2015 17:1 27:17 44:11 47:21 48:7 64:8 20-30 47:14 20585 1:11 20-odd 55:7 23rd 48:20 24th 30:8 25 51:16 66:6 3 3 48:17 51:18

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8 39:4 9 940 76:19 950 1:11 A ability 12:16 13:18 14:1 able 7:6 18:8 29:17 39:8 45:5 55:14 65:9 abstaining 9:19 abstention 48:19 49:17 50:5,18 abstentions 48:5,21 49:7,22 50:17 51:8,18,21 ACCA 53:8 accept 13:8,13,14 26:1 accepted43:7 accepting12:14 33:5 43:2 56:3,7 accepts 47:18 according 21:10 39:15 account44:21 52:21 achieve 63:19 act23:9 24:6 29:20 31:16 34:9 63:2 action 39:9 79:10,14 actions 67:1 actives 17:16 activity 40:9 52:12 actor19:8 acts 24:20 31:12,20,22 actual7:6 18:21 actually5:4 10:18 13:22 18:12,16 19:4,6 20:3 22:6 24:2,10 25:10 27:2,13 29:10 30:18 31:1 32:13 33:8 35:10 39:22 43:18 58:12,14 76:1 add 5:19 26:22 31:17 51:2 added 16:1 adding 31:11,16 51:10 addition 31:14 50:9 additional 30:13 31:12,20,22 45:12 49:6 address 16:18 18:20 52:18 53:15 54:8 75:12 adjourned 78:6 administratively 25:17,22 advantage 65:8 ADVISORY

1:6 affordability 46:18 afield 69:16 against33:5 39:9 43:2 56:3 agenda 3:2 4:20 6:15Capital Reporting Company Appliance Standards Rulemaking Advisory Committee Webinar 12-01-2014 Page 2

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 ago 5:21 agreed 7:5,8 8:7 9:18 10:21 11:18 13:7 14:5,12 15:1 16:22 18:14 21:10 22:11 25:5 26:15,21 27:3 29:9,15 31:17 32:6,15 40:19 agreement29:18 ahead 19:22 22:15 37:13 39:20 76:9 AHRI 20:18 27:11 41:1 ahs 28:13 air 7:4 9:9 10:5 11:1 15:14,17 17:5,7 29:14 30:1,5 32:12 34:15 50:20 53:7,13 Alaska 48:15 ALEX2:11 alleged 21:14 allow 11:20 14:21 35:2,16 allowing 31:12 49:2 already15:22 17:3 46:2 47:3,20 73:2,4 Alternatively

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63:8 64:10 65:6 66:21 67:2,17 71:13 73:9 74:3 76:2,11 ASRAC's 46:9 assess 39:22 51:4 53:14 assuming58:18 assumption 47:10 assumptions 52:20 attempted 18:21 attend 45:5 attendance 75:1 attended 46:13 74:21 75:14 attention 52:6 60:20 attorney 79:12 attracting 60:20 audio 79:5 August42:12 authorize 23:18 authorized 44:3 available 14:6 avenues 59:15 average50:10 avoid 38:21 aware 7:17 13:6 55:12 awareness 11:18 away 70:5,7 awful 44:9,17 B backup 64:17Capital Reporting Company Appliance Standards Rulemaking Advisory Committee Webinar 12-01-2014 Page 3

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 bad 19:8 64:21 based 35:12 48:12 53:3,7 baseline 9:4 basic 7:16 9:17 basically 10:7 16:5 44:12 47:5 53:12 basics 8:3 Battelle 50:14 battle 70:9 bears 31:2 became 18:11 34:12 become 13:6 beginning 6:11 behind 45:10 55:13 belief 18:19 19:13 believe 18:16 64:11 believer68:12 beneficial 71:11 benefit 66:2 73:8 benefits 61:1 62:8 besides 65:8 best39:12 41:9 43:20 45:17 57:1 61:8 70:14 better 36:14 37:9 bit 12:18 43:16 45:10,22 51:7 57:5 58:9 59:7 60:17 66:2 67:3,21 68:16 71:5 72:7 75:3 76:9 bite 68:18 blast 25:3 40:6 blood 74:8 board 6:4 58:16 60:3 boil 20:10 bookshelf

56:17 bottom50:14,18 bought 16:4,6,7,16 box 13:16 brainstorming 59:7 71:15 break 39:14 57:5 bring 33:12 52:1,6,12,14 60:10 bringing 39:9 brings 9:14 broad 11:3 30:6 35:14 69:2 broke 7:14 brunt 31:2 buck 22:18 budgeted 5:1 build 72:5 building 6:1 53:11 buildings 47:22 bulk39:2 bullets 68:21 69:1 bunch 62:19 73:15 burden 14:20 16:2 burdensome14:19 Bureau 58:4 business 18:14 23:19 28:4,13 busy 5:12 buy 39:3

bystander45:4 C calculation 52:20 calendars 12:4 Capital1:14 captured 11:9 61:2 care22:21 carried 8:17 case 13:19 21:15 22:1,2 30:15 44:10 73:7 cases 15:1 Caskey2:7 41:15,22 43:15 44:2 59:4 67:19,20 69:6,18 71:8 74:6 75:5 Cassidy5:7 cats 63:13 cause 36:10 ceiling 50:3 53:12 central 7:4 10:5 11:1 29:14,22 30:5 34:15 certain 12:8 28:8 54:6 71:6 74:19 certainly 68:8 71:9 75:18 CERTIFICATE 79:1 80:1 certification 27:12 52:10 certified 8:12 9:2,5,10,13 20:11,14 21:1,6 certify79:3 80:4

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