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 U.S. DEPARTMENT OF ENERGY

 COMMERCIAL AND INDUSTRIAL PUMPS

 NEGOTIATED RULEMAKING WORKING GROUP

 Department of Energy

 1000 Independence Avenue, SW

 Forrestal Building

 Washington, D.C. 20585

 Wednesday, December 18, 2013

 10:13 a.m.

Reported By: Natalia Thomas

 Capital Reporting Company
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1 A P P E A R A N C E S

2 FACILITATOR:

3 Doug Brookman, Public Solutions, Inc.

4

PARTICIPANTS:

5

Lucas Adin, DOE

6

Bob Asdal, Hydraulic Institute

7

Bob Barbour, TACO, Incorporated

8

Alex Boesenberg, National Electrical

9 Manufacturers Association

10 Charlie Cappellino, ITT

11 Greg Case, Pump Design, Development, and

 Diagnostics

12

Dan Cohen, DOE

13

John Cymbalsky, DOE

14

Tom Eckman, Northwest Power and Conservation

15 Council

16 Randy Ferman, Ekwestral Consulting

17 Gary Fernstrom, Pacific Gas and Electric Company

18 Wayne Gordon, DOE

19 Mark Handzel, Xylem Corporation

20 Albert Huber, Patterson Pump Company

21 Sanaee Iyama, Lawrence Berkeley National Lab

22 Betsy Kohl, DOE
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1 A P P E A R A N C E S (cont'd)

2 PARTICIPANTS:

3 Paul Lin, Regal-Beloit

4 Jane Luxton, Hydraulic Institute

5 John Masters, Danfoss

6 Joanna Mauer, Appliance Standards Awareness

 Project

7

Mark Menzer, Intertek

8

Doug Potts, American Water

9

Chuck Powers, Flowserve Corporation

10

Callie Reis, Navigant Consulting

11

Steve Rosenstock, Edison Electric Institute

12

Louis Starr, Northwest Energy Efficiency Alliance

13

Steve Thompson, TACO, Incorporated

14

Greg Towsley, Grundfos

15

Meg Waltner, Natural Resources Defense Council

16

Dan Weintraub, Navigant Consulting

17

Ben White, TACO, Incorporated

18

John White, TACO, Incorporated

19

Sarah Widder, Pacific Northwest National Lab

20

Alison Williams, Lawrence Berkeley National Lab

21

22
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1 P R O C E E D I N G S

2 (10:13 a.m.)

3 MR. BROOKMAN: Please take your seats. Let's

4 start.

5 Good morning, everyone, and welcome. This

6 is the first meeting of the Commercial and Industrial

7 Pumps Working Group. Today is December 18, 2013, here

8 in the Forrestal Building in Washington, D.C.

9 Welcome, everyone. So glad you could make

10 it here this morning. And we are very eager to get

11 this underway.

12 Welcoming remarks -- we are going to start

13 with welcoming remarks from John Cymbalsky.

14 MR. CYMBALSKY: Thank you, Doug. Welcome,

15 everybody, to today's kickoff for the Pumps Working

16 Group to negotiate energy conservation standards for

17 our pumps.

18 So I'm the designated federal official that

19 is in charge of the ASRAC Committee that chartered

20 this group. And I just want to say at the outset that

21 the Department has actually been very happy with the

22 way these negotiated type of rulemakings have gone. We
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1 have done a few now, we've got a couple under our

2 belt, and we are hoping that this kind of continues

3 the momentum in that direction. I think most people

4 who have been through this before have found it to be

5 a better experience than the normal notice and comment

6 rulemaking process that we use.

7 Having said that, we do have an obligation

8 to do a rulemaking here, and so we are going to go

9 concurrently down the path of doing this and our

10 notice and comment rulemaking in case this does not

11 prove fruitful in the end. However, I don't expect

12 that to happen. I think I'm very optimistic about

13 what we can achieve with this working group, and I

14 hope everybody comes to the table here with an open

15 mind and negotiates in earnest a good result for what

16 we are looking for here from DOE.

17 I probably won't attend most, if any,

18 meetings after this. I've got a really good staff

19 member here, Lucas Adin, who will be carrying the

20 torch for DOE, but he has one vote, and the other

21 process he has all the votes. So I think for those of

22 you in the room should think -- (Laughter.) -- that
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1 this is something good for everybody. So I know we

2 have varied interests around the table, and I

3 encourage everybody to speak up. Don't be shy. You

4 know, everything here is on the public record. We

5 have a transcript that will be kept for everybody to

6 review.

7 And we don't call this a working group for

8 nothing. This is going to be work. This isn't

9 sitting around and playing with your pens, because I

10 think those of you who have been through this know

11 that it is hard work to get to a consensus, whatever a

12 consensus is defined to be, which is what we will do

13 today.

14 But with that, I will turn it back to Doug,

15 and I think we have our ethics person in the room now,

16 so --

17 MR. BROOKMAN: We do? Okay. Then, let's

18 proceed.

19 Well, before we go to our ethics person,

20 maybe we could just do introductions of the working

21 group members. Is that okay with you? Or should we

22 do Wayne first?
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1 (Simultaneous speaking.)

2 Okay? So if you would, please -- I anticipate that

3 each of you could do this in about 20 to 30 seconds --

4 name, organizational affiliation, and your kind of

5 association/key interest in pumps. Okay?

6 MR. POTTS: Yeah. Hi. My name is Doug

7 Potts. I'm a senior design engineer with American

8 Water, which is the largest privately owned water

9 utility in the U.S. We're a pump user. We pump clean

10 water. And so we care a lot about -- we spend

11 millions of dollars a year on energy to run our pumps,

12 so we care a lot about the efficiency of our pumps.

13 MR. BROOKMAN: Thank you.

14 MR. HANDZEL: Hi. I'm Mark Handzel with

15 Xylem Corporation. We're a pump manufacturer, a

16 global pump manufacturer, and a Hydraulic Institute

17 member. And we have been very active in working with

18 the Department of Energy over the last several years

19 and, you know, consider this a vital part of, you

20 know, what is going on in our industry. So --

21 MR. BROOKMAN: Thank you.

22 MR. HUBER: I'm Al Huber, President of
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1 Patterson Pump Company. We're a pump manufacturer

2 here in the United States. We are a global pump

3 company. We've been involved, or I have been

4 involved, for the last three years in this process,

5 met several times with DOE. So, you know, we are very

6 familiar with this effort.

7 MR. POWERS: Chuck Powers, Flowserve

8 Corporation Director, all product development activity

9 globally. We have 48 plants around the world, and we

10 make about every pump you have here on the list. Was

11 part of the European directive team. I'm also chair

12 of WWEMA next year, in 2014, which has a lot to do

13 with activity with manufacturing, and a Hydraulic

14 Institute member for several years. I'm very

15 interested and looking forward to seeing what I can do

16 to help and add value and make sense out of the

17 process.

18 MR. BROOKMAN: Thank you.

19 MS. WALTNER: Meg Waltner with the Natural

20 Resources Defense Council. We're a nonprofit

21 environmental advocacy organization. We have worked

22 on DOE appliance standards for a long time due to the
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1 energy efficiency savings and the environmental and

2 consumer benefits.

3 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Steve Rosenstock, Edison

4 Electric Institute. We're a trade association that

5 represents the investor-owned utilities in the United

6 States, international affiliates and associate

7 members. We serve about 70 percent of the end use

8 customers in the United States.

9 Our interests -- we have been very involved

10 with DOE appliance energy efficiency standards. Our

11 members are also consumers of pumps at our powerplant

12 facilities and commercial buildings, and we also work

13 with end use customers on their efficiency programs

14 through demand-side management and other programs to

15 assist customers with being more efficient.

16 Thank you.

17 MR. FERNSTROM: I'm Gary Fernstrom, retired

18 from and a consultant at the Pacific Gas and Electric

19 Company. I'm here representing the California

20 investor-owned utilities - PG&E, Southern California

21 Edison, San Diego Gas & Electric Company, and the

22 Southern California Gas Company - and the millions of
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1 customers that we collectively serve.

2 The California Public Utilities Commission

3 has directed the California utilities to include

4 energy efficiency as the first item in its loading

5 order. So we're interested in energy efficiency. The

6 savings from our code advocacy-related program amount

7 to about one-third of the total savings of all of our

8 energy efficiency programs.

9 MR. ECKMAN: I'm Tom Eckman. I manage the

10 conservation resources section at the Northwest Power

11 and Conservation Council. We are an interstate agency

12 that does regional power planning for the northwest

13 states of Oregon, Idaho, Washington, and Montana. We

14 were established by Congress back in 1980 by a federal

15 law to do integrated resource planning for Northwest

16 and energy efficiency was identified as the resource

17 of choice, much like in California, only 23 years

18 earlier. And so we have been relying on energy

19 efficiency, and co-gen standards are a major component

20 of the mechanisms for the development of our energy

21 efficiency resource options. So we look at those as

22 real potential.
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1 MS. MAUER: I'm Joanna Mauer with the

2 Appliance Standards Awareness Project. We're a

3 nonprofit organization. We have a steering committee

4 made up of energy efficiency and environmental groups,

5 consumer advocate groups, utilities, and state

6 government, and we work towards cost effective energy

7 efficiency standards at both the state and federal

8 levels for home appliances, commercial and industrial

9 equipment, and lighting.

10 MR. STARR: I'm Louis Starr. I'm with

11 Northwest Energy Efficiency Alliance and represent a

12 nonprofit organization voluntarily funded by utilities

13 in the northwest area, which is Washington, Oregon,

14 Idaho, and Montana.

15 MR. TOWSLEY: Greg Towsley, Director of

16 Regulatory and Technical Affairs for Grundfos, a

17 global pump manufacturer, and Grundfos has been

18 engaged in these similar activities over in Europe. So

19 we are here to support this as well.

20 MR. CAPPELLINO: Good morning, everybody.

21 I'm Charlie Cappellino with ITT Industrial Process

22 Group out of Seneca Falls, New York. We have been
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1 actively involved as well through Hydraulic Institute

2 and have been heavily involved in a lot of the

3 discussions over the last couple of years. We make

4 pumps of all shapes and sizes, a global company, and

5 my responsibility is R&D and engineering.

6 MR. CASE: Good morning. I'm Greg Case with

7 Pump Design, Development, and Diagnostics. As a point

8 here, I am actually -- I am representing the Hydraulic

9 Institute, not my company, in these negotiations. So

10 that's something that might need to be changed

11 somewhere along the way.

12 MR. BROOKMAN: Thanks for the clarification.

13 Yes, helpful.

14 MR. CASE: The Hydraulic Institute's

15 interest here is -- as the North American

16 representative of the pump manufacturers, this is

17 obviously a very key issue for us, and we would like

18 to make sure that there is a fair ruling made on all

19 of our members' behalf.

20 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Thank you.

21 MR. BARBOUR: I'm Bob Barbour. I'm with

22 TACO, Incorporated. TACO is a U.S.-based manufacturer
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1 of pumps and HVAC equipment distributing globally.

2 MR. BROOKMAN: Thank you.

3 MR. ADIN: I'm Lucas Adin. I'm with DOE's

4 Appliance and Equipment Standards Program, and I will

5 be representing DOE on this working group. I have

6 been with DOE for just about five years, working

7 mostly on residential refrigeration and air

8 conditioning equipment. But before DOE I was in the

9 Navy as an officer on a nuclear sub, so we did use a

10 lot of the types of pumps that we will be talking

11 about in this group. And since they kept my reactor

12 safe and kept me off the bottom of the ocean, I have

13 what might be described as an unusual affection for

14 them.

15 (Laughter.)

16 I also, as a representative of my employer, care about

17 them being efficient, so I look forward to fruitful

18 negotiation.

19 MR. BROOKMAN: Thank you.

20 MR. ADIN: Thanks.

21 MS. KOHL: Betsy Kohl, also with the Energy

22 Department. Glad Lucas is here. I'm a regulatory
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1 attorney with the General Counsel's office.

2 MR. BROOKMAN: John introduced himself.

3 Please just stand up, say your name and organizational

4 affiliation.

5 MS. REIS: My name is Callie Reis. I'm with

6 Navigant Consulting. We're responsible for the

7 engineering analysis.

8 MS. WIDDER: My name is Sarah Widder. I'm

9 with Pacific Northwest National Lab, and we are

10 supporting DOE on the pumps rulemaking.

11 MR. WEINTRAUB: My name is Dan Weintraub

12 with Navigant Consulting, supporting DOE.

13 MS. WILLIAMS: Alison Williams, Lawrence

14 Berkeley National Lab, supporting DOE.

15 MS. IYAMA: Sanaee Iyama, Lawrence Berkeley

16 National Lab.

17 MR. BROOKMAN: And, please, as a matter of

18 courtesy, let's have those of you in the back also

19 introduce yourselves.

20 MR. ASDAL: Good morning. Bob Asdal,

21 Executive Director at the Hydraulic Institute.

22 MS. LUXTON: Jane Luxton, Clark Hill for
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1 Hydraulic Institute.

2 MR. FERMAN: Randy Ferman, Ekwestral

3 Consulting, and I'm helping out the energy efficiency

4 advocates.

5 MR. JOHN WHITE: Good morning. John White.

6 I'm here with TACO, Incorporated.

7 MR. BEN WHITE: I'm Ben White, and I also

8 represent TACO, Incorporated.

9 MR. THOMPSON: Steve Thompson with TACO. I'm

10 Director of Residential Product Development and head

11 up the High Efficiency Division of TACO. I'm also the

12 Chair of the Hydraulic Institute's Circulator

13 Committee. Thank you for having us here today.

14 MR. MASTERS: Good morning. John Masters

15 with Danfoss.

16 MR. MENZER: Mark Menzer with Intertek.

17 We're a global testing and inspection laboratory.

18 MR. COHEN: Dan Cohen, DOE General Counsel's

19 office.

20 MR. GORDON: Hi. I'm Wayne Gordon. I'm

21 from the General Counsel's office as well. I'm doing

22 the briefing.
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1 MR. BROOKMAN: Yes. Please join us, Wayne.

2 MR. BOESENBERG: Alex Boesenberg, Manager of

3 Regulatory Affairs for the National Electrical

4 Manufacturers Association. I'm particularly

5 interested in the motor and drive side of today's

6 discussions.

7 MR. WYNN: Paul Wynn with Regal Beloit,

8 interested on the motor side, on the extended product

9 discussion.

10 MR. BROOKMAN: Thanks again to all of you.

11 We are very eager to get this underway and pleased to

12 see you all here this morning, especially we welcome

13 anyone joining us via the web. The Department of

14 Energy is trying very hard to make these meetings --

15 all these meetings -- very accessible to those via the

16 web, and we hope the sound quality and everything is

17 working out okay this morning. It has been mixed in

18 the recent past.

19 Wayne Gordon, welcome. Thank you for

20 joining us. It's yours.

21 MR. GORDON: Thanks very much. I work for

22 the General Law Division for the Department of Energy.
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1 I work for the Standards of Conduct Office, which

2 manages and provides legal advice to the various

3 federal advisory committees that our office supports.

4 We've got approximately 22 Federal Advisory Committees

5 in action. We use a variety of processes for getting

6 advice into the Department. This is one of the more

7 unusual processes that we use when we use a

8 subcommittee. And as members here in your

9 representative capacities, you are going to be acting

10 as a subcommittee to the parent committee, which is

11 the Appliance Standards Rulemaking Committee.

12 I'm the legal advisor for that group, and I

13 just wanted to go over a couple of issues with regards

14 to the advice that you are going to proceed and the

15 procedures that you are going to be using. I provide

16 advice to John on ethics issues. Dan Cohen's group,

17 including Betsy, provide me advice regarding what EERE

18 needs out of the Appliance Standards Rulemaking

19 Committee.

20 When you are here as representatives of

21 various corporations -- and I notice that one of you

22 is a representative of a group of corporations -- you
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1 are here in a capacity where the government has said

2 we are going to allow you to make those representative

3 comments, and we are going to allow you to have sort

4 of a freeform, full, open discussion about what your

5 personal company's interest, or what the group of

6 companies that you represent interests, are.

7 The Federal Advisory Committee Act has

8 almost entirely tried to keep out excess influence

9 from industry or interested parties. We have tried to

10 get pure advice back to the Department that is not --

11 that is not so closely associated with an individual

12 company's advice or basically their interest.

13 This Committee works a little bit

14 differently. And, in fact, the rulemaking devices

15 that we are using in the Advisory Committee process

16 also involves the Administrative Procedures Act. So

17 in the course of your giving advice, and your

18 negotiations with each other regarding what you think

19 is important for the Department to know about, I want

20 you to realize that your advice and the

21 recommendations that come out of this subcommittee are

22 going to be reviewed by the full committee.
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1 The full committee uses your input, but they

2 have an independent responsibility to judge whether or

3 not that's what they specifically want to tell the

4 Department as to how the rules should be structured.

5 But that should not keep you from exercising sort of a

6 full and engaged perspective in trying to get to the

7 best possible rules that you guys are going to come up

8 with regarding pumps.

9 From an ethics perspective, because we have

10 that division and we are going to have a review at the

11 parent committee level, we don't have to comply with

12 all of the regular Federal Advisory Committee Act

13 rules, which means we were able to have an easier time

14 appointing you to your positions. We did not have to

15 have such a -- even though we are conducting this in a

16 public forum, and we are conducting all of this in a

17 very open and transparent way, the subcommittee rules

18 did not require us to do so. We are doing this to

19 make sure that we get the best product out of you as

20 your representatives of your various organizations and

21 as representatives of a group of organizations.

22 So from my perspective, if there are ethics
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1 issues that come up during the course of the conduct

2 of any of the meetings, or if you have concerns about

3 any ethics issues, my advice to you is to bring those

4 to John's attention. And John will funnel those to me

5 and he will say, "Wayne, should we be engaged in this

6 type of discussion? Is there a problem with having a

7 particular person involved in a discussion?"

8 I will tell you that from my advice to the

9 other committees that I advise, we get financial

10 disclosures from them, so we know what their personal

11 financial interests are. We didn't require that for

12 anybody on the subcommittee because we realize we are

13 accepting some advice that may have a particular

14 perspective, and we want to get that advice because we

15 think that ultimately that will get us the best

16 product.

17 So from that perspective, that's all I

18 wanted to advise you on. If there are ethics issues

19 that come up, or questions about whether or not

20 particular people should be involved in particular

21 conversations that you guys will have, direct them to

22 John. John will be in touch with me. And myself and
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1 Dan's staff will come up with a correct answer on

2 those issues.

3 Any other areas you want to cover?

4 MR. BROOKMAN: Wayne, would you entertain

5 questions here at the outset?

6 MR. GORDON: Sure.

7 MR. BROOKMAN: Any questions here as we

8 begin? And noting that you all are delegates,

9 designated members of this working group, and we

10 should also acknowledge that Tom Eckman is the

11 delegate, the designated ASRAC rep serving on this

12 working group.

13 Questions here at the outset about ethics

14 sorts of issues, noting that Wayne will remain

15 accessible?

16 (No response.)

17 MR. GORDON: Okay. Well, thanks very much

18 for your time.

19 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Thank you very much.

20 Okay. I didn't introduce myself. I'm Doug

21 Brookman. I've worked with many of you in the past,

22 and I know many or most of you, and I'm glad to see
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1 you here. We are very eager -- excited to get this

2 going.

3 Do you want to start with your overview?

4 MR. ADIN: Sure. Maybe we should go with

5 the agenda.

6 MR. BROOKMAN: Oh, yes. Good idea. Good

7 idea. All of you received a packet of information

8 when you came in. You can see the agenda, which I am

9 going to review very briefly. We have already done

10 the first few elements -- ethics, welcome,

11 introductions. I have introduced myself.

12 Following this, we'll have a description of

13 negotiated rulemakings. We'll take a break mid14 morning right about -- yeah, about 11:30 or 11:00 or

15 so. From there we'll discuss ground rules. If you

16 haven't taken a peek at these ground rules yet, when

17 we go to coffee maybe you should take a quick peek at

18 them. There's quite a bit here. And like most

19 chartering documents or contract-like documents, there

20 is a lot of subtlety in some of the wording that is in

21 here. So take a peek, because we are going to discuss

22 this in sufficient detail.
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1 We'll talk about establishing the ground

2 rules for the negotiations. We'll take lunch midday,

3 around about 12:30 or so. And when we return from

4 lunch, if we haven't concluded that discussion on

5 ground rules, we will continue it. And then following

6 that, discussion on rulemaking objective and scope of

7 negotiations; we'll break mid-afternoon, and then

8 continue the discussion on rulemaking objective and

9 scope of negotiations.

10 We intend to finish today around about 6:00.

11 Okay? So we're going to have a long afternoon.

12 This, I presume, will be the general format

13 that we will observe as we schedule these meetings.

14 That is, we will probably start at 10:00 on day one,

15 run until say 6:00, so we can get in an almost full

16 workday, commence on day two early, 8:00, since

17 everyone is here, and then end early, say 2:30, 3:00,

18 so everybody can get on a plane and get out of here.

19 In previous -- my previous experiences of

20 this kind, this is a very efficient sort of

21 arrangement, and it minimizes travel time and downtime

22 and all that sort of thing.
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1 So we will probably be done around about

2 6:00 today. As I have noted, we will resume tomorrow

3 morning here in this same room at 8:00 a.m., and any

4 issues that we haven't covered sufficiently from day

5 one we will take up at that point. We will break mid6 morning around about 10:00, 10:30. And then a

7 discussion of issues surrounding commercial industrial

8 pumps. That's kind of issues related -- issues that

9 you anticipate that we need to flag at this point that

10 we are likely to get -- need an early start on.

11 And then you can see the way it's listed

12 here on the agenda. It's pretty open-ended, to see

13 where the discussion needs to go. Continuing

14 discussion, negotiated rulemaking efforts. And then,

15 finally, tomorrow as well we will be talking about the

16 meeting schedule.

17 My hope, my expectation is that we can

18 establish a meeting schedule for essentially the next

19 probably five to six months. So bring your calendars.

20 Maybe we will start with this today, but certainly

21 bring them tomorrow, because it would be nice to kind

22 of get clear when we are going to meet for the next
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1 however many months we decide to proceed.

2 And tomorrow, once again, we will end at

3 3:00 or so. Okay? So that's the plan.

4 Questions/comments about the general plan? Yes, Steve

5 Rosenstock.

6 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Steve Rosenstock, EEI. Just

7 a couple. I know this is -- this is going through

8 webinar as well, correct? This is being broadcast

9 over the web?

10 MR. BROOKMAN: Correct. Yes.

11 MR. ROSENSTOCK: My only thought is, in

12 terms of tomorrow, just to be fair for those parties

13 who couldn't make it, you know, for people from the

14 west coast, they are starting at 5:00 in the morning

15 tomorrow, so -- don't know if there are people from

16 the west coast on the webinar today versus tomorrow.

17 Again, I don't know if 8:00 is a little -- might be a

18 little rough for them.

19 Again, I don't want to hurt anybody's air

20 travel schedule, but 9:00 might not be too terrible

21 for the west, and hopefully it wouldn't hurt us

22 tomorrow.
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1 But, again -- and also, again, I just want

2 to -- in terms of DOE, I just want to make sure

3 someone is downstairs at 7:30 for everybody. Again,

4 that -- unfortunately, there have been instances in

5 the past where sometimes someone wasn't down there

6 that early.

7 So, again, I don't want to hurt anybody's

8 travel schedule, their airline schedule. I'm just --

9 just general process considerations for consideration.

10 MR. BROOKMAN: Thank you. Appreciate that.

11 Brenda has already been talking about someone down

12 there early tomorrow morning. And it is early for

13 those who will be joining us via the west coast.

14 However, the focus of the effort here is on you

15 negotiators, you members of this working group. And

16 we want you to be here at 8:00, so we can continue

17 with this effort.

18 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Understood.

19 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Louis.

20 MR. STARR: Suggesting you might on the --

21 as far as establishing the schedule for the future, we

22 get kind of an idea of the framework. It seems like
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1 there might be some discussion.

2 If we had that earlier in the day, like by

3 the end of the day we knew kind of it is going to be

4 every three weeks, every four weeks, and then I think

5 that would help facilitate the discussion tomorrow

6 because there is a lot of trade organizations and

7 things that are meeting at different times, and they

8 sort of know those things, so --

9 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay.

10 MR. ROSENSTOCK: -- if we could get the

11 general -- if it's every four weeks and --

12 MR. BROOKMAN: Yeah.

13 MR. ROSENSTOCK: -- I think that would help

14 everybody else out.

15 MR. BROOKMAN: Yeah. I think that's our

16 anticipation, that it's generally every four weeks or

17 so. Or maybe we'll push it to five. Conceivably, we

18 could go to three. But we will just cover all of

19 that. Okay?

20 Other comments/questions here at the outset

21 on the agenda?

22 (No response.)
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1 Okay. So do you want to proceed, then, with your

2 overview? Lucas Adin.

3 MR. ADIN: So I'm just going to give a very

4 brief overview of the rulemaking negotiation process,

5 and a lot of the folks here have never participated in

6 one of these before, and as well as a few items just

7 on DOE standards rulemaking process generally, since,

8 again, we have never done a pumps rulemaking before so

9 this may be new information to a lot of you.

10 So the agenda we have already discussed.

11 Just in very general background, for those of you who

12 are unaware -- we talked about this a little bit

13 already -- but the ASRAC is the committee that DOE

14 formed under the authority of the Federal Advisory

15 Committee Act to -- essentially to advise DOE on

16 rulemaking issues generally, but it has the authority

17 to form working groups to negotiate standards

18 rulemakings and other issues that DOE would normally

19 conduct through the regular notice and comment

20 process.

21 So it was formed in 2012 and has formed a

22 couple of working groups already. There have been two
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1 negotiated rules that have been negotiated so far, and

2 so this is the next one that DOE has commenced.

3 This just generally provides some background

4 details on the ASRAC itself, how it functions, what it

5 is authorized to do. One very important point to

6 mention there at the bottom is that for a rulemaking

7 in which the consensus process wasn't able to reach

8 consensus, the ASRAC would inform DOE that consensus

9 is not reached and withdraw the task. And in such a

10 circumstance, DOE would proceed or is authorized to

11 proceed with its normal rulemaking process.

12 So if for whatever reason a working group

13 doesn't come up with consensus, is not able to reach

14 consensus on the objective that it was trying to

15 reach, then DOE would proceed. And we'll talk about

16 that a little bit more probably when we get into the

17 ground rules, but that was a point I wanted to mention

18 at the outset.

19 This is just an overall view of the ASRAC

20 process, and a lot of this has actually already

21 happened. So we have worked our way all the way to

22 forming the working group, so we are actually at
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1 number four there, which is the working group

2 commencing its deliberations.

3 So what we'll be doing from here is

4 deliberating, then coming up hopefully with consensus

5 on a recommendation for the ASRAC, present it to the

6 ASRAC, and then the ASRAC will deliberate, and then,

7 depending on their deliberations, make a

8 recommendation to DOE hopefully, and then that would

9 proceed to a proposed rule.

10 So as far as the Pumps Working Group itself,

11 EPCA, which is the statutory language that authorizes

12 DOE to conduct rulemakings for energy efficiency

13 standards for a lot of different products, directs DOE

14 to adopt conservation standards for commercial and

15 industrial pumps for which standards would be

16 technologically feasible and economically justified,

17 and those are two very important subjects that we will

18 be discussing in great detail. But those essentially

19 form the justification for the rule.

20 Presently, as you all know, there are no

21 federal energy efficiency standards for pumps. So DOE

22 commenced the process of evaluating standards for
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1 pumps with an RFI in 2011. I think probably a lot of

2 you know that -- know about that. A lot of you may

3 have contributed information to it in response.

4 Using the information from that, DOE

5 published a framework document. In 2013, we had a

6 meeting. Some of you might have been here for that.

7 So that kind of laid out the rulemaking process

8 generally, as far as how a standards rulemaking would

9 go, the analysis we would conduct, all of that. That

10 information is all in the public docket, the same

11 docket that we will be contributing to with the

12 information that we produce through this negotiation.

13 So that's still available.

14 Subsequently, DOE determined that a

15 negotiated process would likely be more effective for

16 this particular rule. So the ASRAC formed -- excuse

17 me, approved the formation of a working group. The

18 notice of intent went out in July of this year that

19 announced the group's intent and solicited members,

20 and we got members and here we are.

21 So there were four basic items laid out in

22 the notice of intent. Again, these are things that
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1 probably most of you are familiar with, but it was

2 essentially the underlying issues and concerns that we

3 would be discussing and that, in DOE's view anyway, or

4 the ASRAC's view I should say, need to be addressed.

5 I won't go through all of those in detail,

6 but those are things that obviously we will be

7 discussing as we go through this.

8 So the other -- one of the other main points

9 is that participants will be expected to provide

10 analytical support, so we will be asking for data. A

11 lot of you have very useful data that is in fact

12 essential to performing a lot of the economic

13 background analysis, providing those justifications

14 for technological feasibility, economic justification,

15 all that.

16 So we will rely on your capabilities to

17 provide that data as we go through this process to do

18 the analysis.

19 And as has been noticed there, DOE will also

20 be performing analysis during this process to support

21 negotiations. Good faith negotiation, of course,

22 that's an item we'll talk about in the ground rules,
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1 but I think that's something we all understand

2 hopefully.

3 And then, you know, as it notes there -- as

4 I have noted there at the bottom, the specifics of the

5 end goals for this working group we are ultimately

6 working to produce, and the deadline for producing

7 that is something that we will put in the ground

8 rules, is something that we will be discussing today.

9 Okay. So as far as standards rulemakings

10 generally, again, I understand there might be a few of

11 you who have really never gone through the rulemaking

12 process before, may not be completely familiar with

13 all the steps that are involved, but the general

14 criteria for an energy efficiency standards rulemaking

15 that DOE would conduct are laid out in statute.

16 And the section of the U.S. Code that

17 describes it is in Section 6295(o), has all the

18 criteria that DOE will use through a standards

19 rulemaking process to determine whether a rule is

20 justified.

21 That next item there doesn't really

22 necessarily apply here because there are no standards
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1 yet for pumps, but generally speaking, for a product

2 for which there is a standard DOE may not prescribe an

3 amended standard that allows increased energy use by

4 that product. So essentially there is no allowed

5 backsliding on a standard that has already been

6 established.

7 Again, that point I already mentioned, any

8 new standards must be technologically feasible and

9 economically justified. And then, below that I have

10 listed what we call the seven factors. These are

11 seven analytical factors that are to be used in

12 determining whether a rule is economically justified.

13 And it's essentially performing an analysis to

14 determine that the benefits in fact exceed the burdens

15 of the rule.

16 So they are all fairly straightforward. I

17 won't read through them in detail, but that's what we

18 use and those are things that we will be discussing

19 and we will be asking for data and analysis from all

20 of you to help us perform that analysis and in fact

21 establish if those items have been met.

22 Just the rulemaking process generally, this
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1 is the way that we typically go through it. We start

2 with a framework document. That was done last -- this

3 past February, as I mentioned. So the next step

4 normally would be what we call a preliminary analysis,

5 and that is essentially laying out all the analytical

6 results that we have obtained, or that we are able to

7 perform using the data that we have obtained so far

8 from stakeholders and various sources of data, from

9 which we are able to collect it.

10 And it lays essentially the analytical

11 groundwork for proposed standards. It is basically

12 the sort of first opportunity to even suggest proposed

13 standard levels. So, in effect, what we'll be doing

14 is going through a lot of that during this process. It

15 is essentially a condensed version of what we would

16 normally do in a notice and comment process. So we'll

17 be asking for a lot of the data that we would normally

18 use for that, and ultimately get to a point where we

19 can actually propose standard levels to the ASRAC.

20 And then, this is just a depiction of some

21 of the analytical steps that we normally go through in

22 the preliminary analysis process. I won't describe
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1 them all in detail, but it's essentially working

2 towards an economic justification.

3 We start with engineering analysis of the

4 products that we are evaluating, look at the costs of

5 producing them, how much energy they consume, and

6 there is a process by which we can determine in fact

7 how cost effective it is to improve the efficiency of

8 a given product, and then do -- based on shipments do

9 an overall national impact analysis. This is how much

10 money the economy might save. This is how much energy

11 the economy -- or the country would save. So that's a

12 very quick snapshot of how that works. And, again,

13 we'll be talking through a lot of these things in much

14 greater detail in the coming months.

15 So are there any questions right now on

16 anything I have covered so far? I understand it's

17 familiar to a lot of you who have participated in

18 these things before, but I just want to --

19 MR. BROOKMAN: Steve Rosenstock.

20 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Thank you very much. Steve

21 Rosenstock, Edison Electric Institute. I was just

22 wondering how much progress DOE had made on the
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1 preliminary analysis before the announcement of this

2 working group? We filed comments in May. I know the

3 comments on the framework were filed in early May, so

4 I'm just kind of curious about, you know, outside of

5 this effort what -- had DOE made progress on its

6 preliminary analysis?

7 MR. ADIN: Do you mean as of July when it

8 was first announced? So not a tremendous amount. I

9 mean, we had only been a few months beyond the

10 framework document at that point. So I think -- and

11 the group -- the team would probably be able to

12 comment on this in more detail, but we did a lot more

13 additional data collection even beyond that point. I

14 mean, we've been conducting analysis and proceeding so

15 that we would be able to support this group. So I

16 don't know if I could say, you know, we were a certain

17 percentage of the way there specifically, but, I mean,

18 is there any particular -- I don't know if --

19 MR. CYMBALSKY: We've been working very hard

20 on the test procedure development.

21 MR. ADIN: Yeah. We've made a lot of

22 progress. I don't know -- again, I don't know if
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1 there is a specific number I can throw out there.

2 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Thank you.

3 MR. ADIN: Yeah. Sure.

4 MR. BROOKMAN: Yes, Mark.

5 MR. HANDZEL: So, Lucas, just to -- I'm

6 sorry. Mark Handzel from Xylem Corporation. Just to

7 clarify, so obviously many of the manufacturers in

8 this room have met with Navigant, and under protection

9 of non-disclosure agreements have shared a lot of

10 confidential data --

11 MR. ADIN: Right.

12 MR. HANDZEL: -- with them.

13 MR. ADIN: Yes.

14 MR. HANDZEL: So are you saying that we are

15 going to be asked to provide that data again to this

16 group? Is that -- kind of looking at some of the data

17 that you're showing here, it's the same type things

18 that we've already given to Navigant individually.

19 MR. ADIN: So I don't know that we

20 necessarily need to ask for the same data again. I

21 mean, if we've already collected it from you, I don't

22 see that being necessary. It would probably be
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1 whatever we would need, you know, that we haven't

2 gotten already, we need to proceed from the -- you

3 know, where we are right now.

4 MR. HANDZEL: Okay.

5 MR. ADIN: But, and I did get this question

6 earlier. Hopefully this was made clear, but to the

7 extent you provided anything that you believe is

8 confidential and is covered by a non-disclosure

9 agreement, I mean, that is all aggregated. I mean, it

10 won't be -- the analysis that we perform and the

11 results do go in the public docket, because they form

12 the basis of -- the analytical basis of the

13 rulemaking, but they are aggregated, and, you know,

14 nothing that is confidential is ever put in the public

15 docket in the form that you provided it exactly. So -

16 -

17 MR. CYMBALSKY: This is John Cymbalsky, DOE.

18 So I think there's two different things going on here.

19 So, yes, you provided a bunch of data that is forming

20 the preliminary analysis right now. And we don't see

21 it, the Feds don't see it, it's protected. But in the

22 course of this negotiation there is going to be
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1 conversations that come up that may require different

2 kinds of data that you didn't provide already. And

3 this might be something you can share publicly. Maybe

4 it's something you can't share publicly. We won't

5 know until we get into the --

6 MR. HANDZEL: Understood.

7 MR. CYMBALSKY: -- course of negotiations.

8 But I think what we found in the past is

9 that in real time people were actually with their

10 laptops providing data that they could provide to help

11 answer questions that -- and some back and forth that

12 were going on in the negotiations. So I think --

13 that's the distinction I think we're trying to draw

14 here.

15 MR. ADIN: Yeah. Thanks for clarifying

16 that, John. Another thing to point out is that, as I

17 think John sort of alluded to earlier, you know, a lot

18 of the work -- I mean, the negotiation happens while

19 we are here, but there is work that happens between

20 the meetings, too. I mean, you can provide data and

21 analysis during those periods in between. In fact,

22 we'll need as much time as we can get, so --
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1 MR. BROOKMAN: Any questions, additional

2 questions here? Yes, Albert.

3 MR. HUBER: Al Huber, Patterson. My

4 question is, will the working group have access to the

5 summary data that Navigant has done so far, or any

6 analysis work they have done?

7 MR. CYMBALSKY: So whatever you gave them

8 under the NDA, that raw data is protected. To the

9 extent that we roll up analyses that are helpful to

10 this group to move forward, we will put that on a

11 website and post it in the docket for everybody to

12 see.

13 MR. HUBER: Okay.

14 MR. BROOKMAN: Lucas, maybe you could

15 address a concern that several individuals I spoke to

16 raised earlier about the timing of the release of

17 certain key pieces of analysis and how that fits with

18 the work of the working group.

19 MR. ADIN: So this is as far as the sequence

20 of events and the schedule on which those things would

21 occur? Is that basically the question that --

22 MR. BROOKMAN: Yeah.
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1 MR. ADIN: So, generally speaking, as I

2 mentioned, we will be going through effectively the

3 process that is shown up there, but in -- it's a

4 little bit more of a fluid process than what we would

5 normally do in the notice and comment process. So it

6 is hard to say sitting here right now this is exactly

7 the date on which we would release this particular

8 piece of analysis because it depends in large part on,

9 you know, what we agree to do today and tomorrow as

10 far as the ground rules and the ultimate deadline that

11 we set for ourselves.

12 And that's something that I absolutely think

13 we should talk through. We should have an idea at

14 least of what -- you know, well, we should be able to

15 provide an expectation from DOE's standpoint of what

16 we want to do and get an idea from you all of what you

17 think you will be able to provide, and then hopefully

18 by the end of the day tomorrow we'll at least have a

19 sense of what the timeline will look like.

20 So I can't say right at the outset, but --

21 MR. CYMBALSKY: Yeah. I think a lot of the

22 answers to those questions are going to be wound up in
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1 what we decide the scope of this rulemaking to be. And

2 we'll get there; don't worry. And we discussed a

3 little bit about the test procedure, and we know HI,

4 and our consultants are kind of involved in that

5 development. So we are aware of the concerns on the

6 timing there. So we are going to fit all those pieces

7 together.

8 You know, the Department wants to issue a

9 NOPR by the end of 2014. I can tell you that much.

10 MR. BROOKMAN: Calendar 2014? Okay.

11 MR. HANDZEL: Doug, just one more followup

12 questions?

13 MR. BROOKMAN: Yes, please.

14 MR. HANDZEL: Mark Handzel from Xylem, just

15 a followup question. Has this issue been an issue in

16 past working groups, just the data, you know, the

17 confidential data? No? It has typically not been --

18 MR. CYMBALSKY: No. So the way it has

19 worked in the past is when an individual or an

20 individual representing a group of companies wanted to

21 provide data that could be public, they provided it.

22 They even went up and put their laptop up on the
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1 screen for everybody to see. Other times they said,

2 "Well, I already have an NDA with these guys. I'm

3 going to go talk to them after the meeting or during

4 the break or I'll email them something." So it has

5 worked both ways.

6 MR. ADIN: I think the point being, to the

7 extent you have data that you feel needs to be

8 considered and is essential to making sure that, you

9 know, we have considered whatever costs or burdens or,

10 you know, whatever dimension it is, but it's

11 confidential, we have a means for you to provide it

12 such it won't be, you know, compromised. So we want

13 to be able to receive it if it's important.

14 MR. BROOKMAN: Chuck.

15 MR. POWERS: Chuck Powers, Flowserve. A

16 couple of questions. As manufacturers, to put a rule

17 for the U.S. efficiency is excellent. But if we're

18 manufacturing a pump that is going to go to five or

19 six, let's say, geographic regions around the world

20 and each one of those come with their own rulings, we

21 are not about to necessarily come up with five

22 different types of versions for those regions, like
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1 the European standards got theirs, and the U.S. has

2 theirs.

3 So I'm interested, again, on how that is

4 going to fall in here. Have you taken into

5 consideration what is going on in Asia? There are

6 some things going on there you may not be aware of in

7 the Asia PAC groups?

8 You know, John, and these others have all

9 taken some serious considerations of similar things

10 you may not be aware of.

11 The other item is this markup for equipment

12 price determination. You know, the market level and

13 the situation there varies, and it may not be

14 consistent from Texas to California, even to Europe,

15 and those considerations that go into that, right?

16 And then, you know, the affiliation to all

17 that data, right? You know, again, being open about

18 it, we want to make sure we are doing the right thing.

19 But, you know, the world does not evolve around one

20 location in the world.

21 MR. ADIN: Right. Yeah. That's understood.

22 I mean, these are issues that we confront with almost
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1 every rulemaking we do because almost all of the

2 products that we cover have some kind of international

3 standard already applicable to them, or have one in

4 progress. So that's a concern that we hear all the

5 time. It's something that we are well aware of, and I

6 expect it will be one of the key elements of what we

7 are going to negotiate.

8 So, again, I can't tell you this is exactly

9 our position on it right at the outset. It will

10 probably come up to some extent once we start talking

11 about scope, and, you know, to a great extent in

12 things like testing methods and that kind of thing.

13 MR. BROOKMAN: And I would add that one of

14 the great benefits of this negotiation format is that

15 kind of information can be disclosed and fully

16 discussed, vetted, right here, real time, and we can

17 designate or delegate work to other sub-working groups

18 to carry forward something that sounds promising.

19 There is a lot of potential here for you all as a

20 working group to define what is necessary to be

21 successful. There's a lot of potential.

22 Louis.
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1 MR. STARR: Louis Starr with Northwest or

2 NEEA. A question I have is, you know, just most

3 immediately you're talking about scope. One of the

4 things that is going to help in understanding what

5 that scope might be is sales numbers of products and

6 energy usage associated with the sale products.

7 But outside of that, just in general, I

8 think there is going to be data that maybe you've

9 collected but would be aggregated in a different way

10 that would help inform decisions of the working group.

11 And I'm wondering how that is going to react, and are

12 the consultants going to be helping to shape that in a

13 certain way, or is it we just get the information a

14 certain way and we make decisions based upon that.

15 MR. BROOKMAN: I'm not quite sure I

16 understood the question.

17 MR. CYMBALSKY: I think I got it.

18 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. John.

19 MR. CYMBALSKY: Right. So I think this,

20 again, happens in real time. So if we present data

21 that is presented a certain way, and you think it

22 would be helpful for the analysts to sort of
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1 reconstruct data series to look at a different aspect

2 of the same kind of indicator, they are very smart and

3 capable. And to the extent that it's something we can

4 do, we will do that to help move things forward.

5 Absolutely.

6 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Other questions here

7 at the outset?

8 MR. POWERS: Just one more. Sorry.

9 MR. BROOKMAN: Chuck, please, yes.

10 MR. POWERS: Chuck Powers, Flowserve.

11 MR. BROOKMAN: Go ahead.

12 MR. POWERS: On the national impact

13 analysis, that's very important even to us, right? The

14 question would be, you're talking pumps, you have the

15 motors, so you can say the package, but then there is

16 the system. If it's an inert system, a closed system,

17 like a nuclear sub, probably not too many things leak.

18 But, you know -- but in a powerplant probably the same

19 thing to a certain degree except for the circulators

20 maybe and stuff.

21 But when you're talking water systems across

22 thousands of miles, and even D.C. WASA, you could
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1 improve the efficiency of a pump by X, right, which is

2 all good stuff. But what gets leaked out down before

3 it gets to the final usage is -- could be

4 tremendously. So I would think this national impact

5 analysis would say, then, we've got to consider other

6 things that go into the efficiency factors, right? The

7 loss of a system?

8 MR. BROOKMAN: John.

9 MR. CYMBALSKY: So, you know, what we are

10 going to have to define here is, you know, through the

11 test method. We are going to have to define what the

12 efficiency metric is and going forward we will, you

13 know, take that path. To the extent you think there

14 are other things that are important in the NIA, you

15 know, we are open to hearing everybody's concerns with

16 that. But we're a little far away from that at this

17 point.

18 MR. BROOKMAN: Gary Fernstrom.

19 MR. FERNSTROM: Gary Fernstrom, California

20 IOUs. I can't help but observe a little tone of

21 anxiety here as we get started in this process, and I

22 notice John is being pretty optimistic. Having been
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1 involved in one of these processes previously, I share

2 John's optimism. I am looking forward to a very open

3 sharing of information and a better outcome than we

4 would otherwise get if we didn't have this

5 opportunity.

6 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Thank you. Joanna.

7 MS. MAUER: Joanna Mauer. I just wanted to

8 add to what Louis said. I think especially for the

9 efficiency advocates it is going to be hard for us to

10 negotiate without data, and so, you know, market data

11 and preliminary duty analysis I think is going to be

12 really helpful, both for figuring out what scope makes

13 sense, as Louis said, and also when we get into

14 talking about standard levels. So we look forward to

15 hearing more about what data DOE has collected and

16 when we might be able to see some of that.

17 MR. BROOKMAN: Lucas.

18 MR. ADIN: All right. Understood. I mean,

19 we particularly appreciate that, since you don't have

20 access to all the data that some of the other folks

21 around the table might have, since they are the ones

22 providing it. It's important for us to synthesize
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1 this data, aggregate it, provide analysis, you know,

2 as quickly as we are reasonably able to, such that

3 we're confident that it's accurate. And that's

4 something we do intend to do, so yeah.

5 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Are we ready to

6 proceed now? I think we are going to move on. We are

7 going to hear from Dan Cohen, who is going to provide

8 kind of an overview, a brief overview of negotiated

9 rulemaking basics. Dan Cohen.

10 MR. COHEN: Dan Cohen, DOE General Counsel's

11 office. So I have to say, I had a whole talk set up,

12 but you all just stole my thunder actually, the

13 conversation you just had actually.

14 (Laughter.)

15 So I have to come at this from a completely different

16 attack now. So I think what I would do is I would

17 describe what we normally do in a rulemaking and how

18 this is different. And maybe that will get to a lot

19 of the questions you were just asking. And even

20 though you've already gotten some answers, maybe help

21 to sort of alleviate some of the issues or concerns

22 you might have.
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1 So the normal process that we follow -- and

2 Lucas alluded to this -- we publish something called a

3 framework document first, which is sort of essentially

4 a research agenda. We lay out the type of analyses we

5 are going to do, the type of data we want to collect,

6 the kind of issues that we see presented by the

7 product that we are going to be considering

8 regulating, and then we put that out for comment. We

9 have a public meeting. People come and they give us

10 ideas, and then, you know, we get back written

11 comments.

12 Our consultants at Navigant and the labs

13 will go out and they'll meet with you and they'll

14 gather information and they'll conduct their

15 interviews, and then they will go back to their

16 offices and they will work on that data and they will

17 run it through the models that we have developed over

18 time, and then we'll come up with another document

19 called a preliminary analysis document that lays out

20 our initial take on where we see the issues we laid

21 out in the framework document leading us, based on the

22 analysis and the information that has been gathered in
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1 the analysis that has been conducted.

2 And we put that out for comment again, and

3 we have another public meeting and we get back written

4 comments, and we take that all back again to our

5 offices and we work that through and reanalyze and

6 come up with a proposed rule where we think the

7 standard should be for a particular product.

8 And then we present all of the various

9 analyses again, and we put that out for comment and

10 have another public meeting, and then get back the

11 written comments and then issue a final rule.

12 But what you've noted from that process is

13 it's a lot of we develop -- we do analysis, we develop

14 a piece of paper, we publish that piece of paper, we

15 get back pieces of paper. We react to it -- those

16 pieces of paper -- we put out more paper, we get more

17 paper back.

18 (Laughter.)

19 It's a lot of -- you know, we work at our offices, you

20 work in your offices, and we have, you know, moments

21 of interaction, but we don't actually have discussion

22 around the -- it's not working through the analysis in
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1 a room. And what we have discovered is that there are

2 some products where that doesn't really matter, things

3 that we have been regulating for an extended period of

4 time or where the -- you know, I'm not going to, you

5 know, rag on a particular product, but, you know,

6 maybe some things that are -- there is not a lot of

7 changes that are going to happen in a dishwasher, for

8 instance, right? A dishwasher kind of is what a

9 dishwasher is, and so we sort of know what's happening

10 in that process. And so the normal process can work

11 there. It doesn't require the same potential level of

12 give and take as it might for some other products.

13 So for products where we think that give and

14 take would be better happening in a room where we just

15 get everybody together with all of us and all of you,

16 and we sit down and try to work through the analysis,

17 we try this process, the negotiated rulemaking

18 process. So the idea is that we take the things that

19 we would normally do in our offices, after we put out

20 this framework document and start gathering up the

21 data and starting to do initial analysis, and we

22 present that to you and say, "This is what we see.
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1 What do you think?" Tell us what -- you know, come to

2 us with -- look at the data that we have, look at the

3 analysis that we've done, tell us where it's wrong.

4 Right? Tell us where it's right. Tell us what we

5 need to do better. Tell us where we have -- where we

6 have made assumptions that are, you know, not based in

7 reality for whatever reason. Tell us where we have

8 missed some piece of information. Things that don't

9 happen when -- or quickly or easily don't happen when

10 we are in our offices doing our analysis, putting it

11 on paper, and you write us back paper.

12 So the idea here is that we work in a group

13 where it's not just us proposing something to you and

14 you reacting to it, but we are just one member of that

15 group. And as John pointed out, Lucas has only one

16 vote at this table. And, you know, we all sort of sit

17 down and hash through the data. I mean, Steve can

18 give you chapter and verse on one of the negotiated

19 rulemakings we did where we spent weeks, meeting upon

20 meeting, going through scatter plots and cost curves

21 and all sorts of data, trying to figure out an issue

22 about the costs and the uses of steel in a particular
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1 product. And it went on for meeting upon meeting upon

2 meeting. It was a great process.

3 Now, in the end, we didn't reach a

4 consensus. But even with that, we learned an enormous

5 amount of information. We gathered up an enormous

6 amount of additional data. And that rulemaking that

7 came from that process, we believe -- whether anybody

8 outside thinks so, I'm not sure, but at least the

9 press releases would suggest that they believed as

10 well that the product that emanated from that process

11 was a better product, because we were able to just sit

12 around in a room, like in fact this room, and hash

13 through all of that data together.

14 And so that is the idea of negotiated

15 rulemaking is that rather than having that iterative

16 paper process, we sit down, go through the data, get

17 from you more data that is necessary as we -- as the

18 issues are identified, and try to work through the

19 analysis and try to come up with a proposal.

20 Now, the key to that is it's a proposal.

21 Just as a pure legal matter, we can't in this room

22 determine the final. We can only determine the
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1 proposal, because the legal niceties -- that we have

2 to go out with something for comment even after this

3 group finishes.

4 Now, if we do our work well, there shouldn't

5 be a whole lot of comment. And one of the issues that

6 gets presented in the ground rules is what role the

7 people in this room play in that process, in the

8 commenting process, after the proposal is developed.

9 Do you have an obligation to be supportive, or at

10 least not negative? Whatever. And that is all to be

11 discussed.

12 But we get back those comments on the

13 proposal that we will develop hopefully in consensus

14 in this room, and then we can talk about, again, as

15 part of the ground rules, do we reconstitute the group

16 to help go through the comments, help us look at what

17 we do with response to whatever comments we may

18 receive, and then ultimately we have to adopt a final

19 rule.

20 But the idea is that this is a group

21 process, an iterative process, where we are working

22 together to do the analysis we normally would do in
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1 our offices.

2 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Thank you. Are there

3 questions for Dan? No questions at this point?

4 (No response.)

5 And of course the work of this group, as we mentioned

6 earlier, it will go back to ASRAC, and they will

7 review the work.

8 MR. COHEN: Right. As Wayne mentioned, this

9 is just -- again, it's the legal niceties to the

10 Federal Advisory Committee Act. This is a working

11 group of ASRAC, which Wayne alluded to the fact that

12 that kind of avoids a whole bunch of rules and

13 processes that normally would apply, and in fact do

14 apply to ASRAC. So the fact that those rules apply to

15 ASRAC means that they don't have to apply here in the

16 same way.

17 So, but the quid pro quo for that is that

18 the recommendation that this group comes up with goes

19 back to ASRAC. ASRAC ultimately has then the

20 responsibility of deciding to pass that recommendation

21 on to the Department.

22 Now, as a practical matter, in the prior
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1 negotiated rulemakings, that hasn't been an issue.

2 They have been happy to, when there has been a

3 consensus on issues, present that forward because

4 they, to be perfectly honest, had no reason not to.

5 There was in fact a consensus.

6 MR. CYMBALSKY: That's where Tom --

7 MR. BROOKMAN: Exactly. We have Tom Eckman,

8 our ASRAC representative, sitting as a voting member

9 on this working group who can be a representative for

10 the agreements, the consensus that you create, we hope

11 you will create, take that straight to ASRAC and speak

12 on behalf of that. Okay?

13 So Steve Rosenstock.

14 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Steve Rosenstock, EEI. You

15 were talking about timing and process. I don't know

16 if there are -- how often is ASRAC meeting these days?

17 Once every three months still or --

18 MR. BROOKMAN: Do you want to get a

19 microphone? There's one right there.

20 MR. CYMBALSKY: So ASRAC generally meets --

21 I think we have met three or four times now. We have

22 two meetings per year that are, you know, definitely
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1 going to happen, and then additional meetings as

2 required. So the plan is to have one in the new year,

3 pretty soon after the new year, to talk about both new

4 business and discuss how things, you know, kind of

5 kicked off here.

6 I think January or February we will have our

7 next ASRAC meeting.

8 MR. BROOKMAN: Dan.

9 MR. COHEN: Yeah. They will also -- ASRAC

10 has typically wanted reports back on the workings of

11 working groups. So they will ask, and we will have to

12 go back to them at those regular meetings and tell

13 them what is happening here. And Tom of course keeps

14 them informed, keeps the other members informed.

15 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Additional questions

16 or comments?

17 (No response.)

18 Okay. This is a good start, and I'm happy to report

19 that we are a little bit ahead of schedule. We should

20 take a coffee break and -- oh, pardon me. That's --

21 Alison. Alison, are you comfortable just giving a

22 brief overview/update on data, where you are?
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1 MS. WILLIAMS: Yeah. So Alison Williams,

2 LBNL. I just wanted to comment on the request for

3 market data, preliminary duty analysis, and energy

4 usage. So we have been collecting shipments data by

5 pump type and duty point. We have been collecting

6 energy usage data in terms of duty points and load

7 profiles.

8 So for the former, for the shipments, we are

9 -- we don't have final numbers yet. There are still a

10 lot of questions about how to roll the data up to the

11 market, but it is certainly something that I think we

12 can share and discuss as a group, how it should -- you

13 know, what the total market looks like.

14 The duty point sort of energy usage analysis

15 information we have only recently just gotten, and so

16 haven't done that much analysis on it yet. But it is

17 also data that we can certainly -- at least some of

18 the data we can share. So we have a lot of this

19 information.

20 So those are just sort of, you know, the

21 broad categories that might help determine scope and

22 things like that. But I think, you know, in terms of
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1 moving forward and discussing scope, if there's data

2 that you need from us that will help, you know, we can

3 do analyses in a certain way that will help you

4 determine the decisions that you need to make, we will

5 certainly share that data and run those analyses for

6 you.

7 MR. BROOKMAN: Yes, Steve.

8 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Steve Rosenstock, EEI. So

9 I can assume that there has been updated numbers since

10 the framework document, the numbers that were

11 presented in the framework document?

12 MS. WILLIAMS: I don't remember exactly what

13 is on the -- in the framework document offhand, but we

14 have been collecting data from manufacturers, as was

15 mentioned, under NDA that we can aggregate and share

16 in terms of market data. And we also have significant

17 additional energy usage information that we did not

18 have at the time of the framework.

19 So there's a table in the framework that has

20 an estimate of shipment distribution by product type,

21 so we can probably update those with the data we have

22 and work on that. Yeah.
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1 MR. BROOKMAN: That's great. So questions

2 for Alison at this point?

3 (No response.)

4 Also, Doug Potts from American Water, do you want to

5 talk about data a little bit?

6 MR. POTTS: Yeah. John just asked -- you

7 know, some data that we can bring to the discussion

8 would be -- and, interestingly, we are in the midst of

9 a pump efficiency program in our utility. So I'm kind

10 of immersed in some of that data right now. So things

11 like typical efficiencies that we would see from the

12 pumps that we have in our facilities, both brand-new

13 pumps as well as pumps that are very old, and we have

14 been doing a lot of wire-to-water efficiency testing

15 on our pumps. So that's some data that I can provide

16 to the discussion.

17 Also, typical kilowatt hours per year that

18 we spend at our -- that we consume at our facilities,

19 costs that we spend at our facilities, I think, you

20 know, just one tidbit would be as a water utility, we

21 estimate that over 90 percent of our electrical spend

22 is for pumping of water. The rest of it is for, you
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1 know, treatment costs, our office buildings, things

2 like that. But so I think there is a range of data

3 there that we could provide to the -- as an end user

4 to the process.

5 I think we estimate that we probably have

6 about 7,000 pumps across our utility, and we are in

7 about 15 states, so there is some useful data there

8 that I think that we can help provide.

9 MR. BROOKMAN: And that's a cross-section,

10 that's a complete cross-section of pumps.

11 MR. POTTS: Yes. It's mainly -- it's clean

12 water pumps, but it would be vertical turbine pumps,

13 horizontal split case pumps. The typical horsepower

14 range that we would have in our facilities would be --

15 I mean, we might have some small booster stations with

16 10 horsepower, but probably a typical range might be

17 100 to 500 horsepower, and in some very large plants

18 maybe up to 1,000 to 1,500 horsepower.

19 But I would say the sweet spot of the pumps

20 that we own and operate would be in the 100 to 300

21 horsepower range.

22 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. So now let's take a
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1 break. It's 20 minutes after 11:00. We've made a

2 really good start. If you haven't taken a peek at

3 these ground rules, do so over the break. We'll break

4 for 15 minutes, which means we will resume at 11:35

5 here in this room.

6 For those of you that aren't familiar, you

7 must wear a badge at the Department of Energy whenever

8 you are afoot here in the building. There are

9 restrooms on both ends of the hall. Many of you know

10 there is a coffee shop on the ground floor. Go

11 quickly, because we will resume at 11:35 right here.

12 Thanks for a good start.

13 (Brief recess.)

14 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Let's resume.

15 One other sort of procedural note -- one

16 thing about a negotiating committee like this that I

17 have observed in the past is they frequently come up

18 with things, information, that you wouldn't -- that

19 you've forgotten or you otherwise wouldn't note. And

20 I would note that this morning I didn't say anything

21 about safety in this building.

22 We already talked about these name tags, but
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1 in the event there is an alarm that goes off, or

2 anything like that, we're on the eighth floor and

3 there are stairwells at both ends of the hall. And we

4 would go that way, to that stairwell, and we'd go down

5 eight floors. And there will be a person at that

6 point who will direct you out of the building. There

7 are people who take safety very seriously here. And

8 so in the event anything like that happens, that's how

9 we will proceed.

10 Okay? So I appreciate the individual who

11 raised this with me, reminded me that I should cover

12 that. That's what a negotiating committee is all

13 about.

14 Okay. So then let's proceed and look at

15 these ground rules. How many of you -- several of you

16 participated in the previous negotiated rulemaking,

17 correct? Four, five, six of you I think. Okay.

18 So you're familiar with these ground rules

19 or similar sorts of ground rules. I thought -- I

20 didn't have any better way to do this, but to start at

21 the top and kind of work our way through. I thought

22 that was a sensible approach, unless someone would
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1 suggest some other method. No? Okay. Let's do it

2 that way.

3 Starting with the goal of the Negotiated

4 Rulemaking Working Group, this seems to me pretty

5 straightforward and pretty -- oh, you're going to

6 broadcast it. Yes. And let me introduce Jeremiah

7 Freeman, who you see sitting over there. He has the

8 capacity to do real-time edits, so we'll be doing that

9 as needed as we go through these ground rules.

10 So as you look at the goal, this struck me

11 as being pretty straightforward, pretty plain vanilla,

12 though I welcome any additional thoughts on this.

13 Lucas.

14 MR. ADIN: Lucas Adin, DOE. I was actually

15 going to make just more of a general point. This

16 might look familiar to a couple of folks who have

17 already participated in these rulemakings, and it is

18 because we have used essentially this set of ground

19 rules for two of the other rules that we have done,

20 essentially in this form with almost exactly the same

21 words.

22 So this is a set of ground rules that we
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1 have used effectively previously for distribution

2 transformers and for our HVAC Certification Working

3 Group. So just to point out that this has a basis

4 already. We didn't just come up with this from

5 scratch.

6 MR. BROOKMAN: Thank you. That's helpful.

7 And I would also note that we are fortunate to have

8 both Betsy and Dan here, our legal counsel

9 representatives, who can advise us if we should need

10 that advice.

11 So any thoughts -- I'm just going to go in

12 sequence here until we find a better pathway. Any

13 additional thoughts about the statement in one about

14 the goal of the working group? Are we missing

15 anything? Is this sufficient? What do you think?

16 MR. COHEN: This is Dan Cohen from General

17 Counsel. Just so you know, if you have specific line18 in/line-out edits, please tell us what they are.

19 Jeremiah has these -- this document on his computer

20 right now, so we can in real time edit this document.

21 And then once we get an agreed document, then we'll

22 have a vote, adopt it.
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1 MR. BROOKMAN: Right. Yeah. Probably

2 should be stated. In the working group, all

3 agreements are preliminary agreements, and they remain

4 preliminary agreements until we reach a point where we

5 decide, as a group, that we are going to be -- we are

6 going to reach a final agreement. Okay? So anything

7 we do now it's preliminary in that respect.

8 Another rule is, hearing no dissent, we

9 presume we are moving forward.

10 (Laughter.)

11 Right? So, and we can double back. You know, we're

12 not resolving everything as we go lock- step here

13 moving forward. So I'm about to move on to number

14 two.

15 MR. POWERS: Can I ask one question?

16 MR. BROOKMAN: Yes, please. Chuck.

17 MR. POWERS: I think I heard one question

18 earlier about John -- do you want to put the goal,

19 also the objective, as by the end of the year? Should

20 you put a timeframe? He mentioned -- I thought he --

21 MR. BROOKMAN: Yeah. There is a timeframe

22 section on page 3, I believe. So this is kind of a
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1 generic statement. Yes. That's a good point.

2 Okay. So then, moving on to number two,

3 participants' interests represented. Any interests

4 that would be significantly affected by the rule may

5 be represented in the negotiations. I think that's

6 pretty straightforward, understood.

7 Parties to the negotiations -- the working

8 group consists of those individuals whom the U.S.

9 Department of Energy has appointed, as nominated by

10 the affected interests. Each organization or interest

11 caucus that is directly represented on the working

12 group shall be deemed to be a party to the

13 negotiations.

14 So all of you, as designated, nominated

15 members, are a party to the negotiation. That's

16 pretty straightforward.

17 Working group members -- each working group

18 member agrees to serve until the dissolution of the

19 working group, unless that member becomes unable to

20 serve, resigns, or ceases to maintain the

21 representational requirements. If, for example, you

22 are here representing a company, and you cease to work
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1 for that company, then that company may deem that you

2 no longer should serve on that company's behalf.

3 That's pretty straightforward.

4 Any thoughts on that?

5 MR. COHEN: Can I make one point on that?

6 Because this has come up in the past. If a working

7 group member either resigns or leaves their company or

8 switches to a different company, leaves the industry,

9 the membership on this working group is within the

10 purview of ASRAC and DOE.

11 So the decision would then be whether that

12 person continued in a role for which they had a

13 representative capacity and, therefore, could continue

14 on the working group, whether that person -- you know,

15 whether the working group could continue without that

16 person being there, as long as there was still a

17 balance amongst interests. We would have to make that

18 decision if the situation came to pass, what we would

19 do to either replace or continue or just leave that

20 seat unfilled.

21 MR. BROOKMAN: And just to be clear, that

22 would be both ASRAC and DOE.
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1 MR. COHEN: Correct.

2 MR. BROOKMAN: Yes. Okay.

3 MR. COHEN: That's correct. It is not an

4 issue for the membership of --

5 MR. BROOKMAN: For the membership. Okay.

6 So then, moving to D, alternates for working

7 group members. Everybody in this room is busy. This

8 make sense -- that each party to the negotiations may

9 designate an alternate, and alternates may substitute

10 for working group members in the event a member cannot

11 attend a session of the working group.

12 We do anticipate and hope -- and it will be

13 covered more later on -- that working group members

14 are here to participate. You have been

15 delegated/designated/nominated, and we want very much

16 to see you here. Let me just finish this out.

17 Only working group members may vote on a

18 consensus recommendation, and any alternate -- that

19 is, an alternate to the working group members --

20 casting a vote shall do so on behalf of the working

21 group member and not as a representative of any other

22 interest or organization, either as an alternate for
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1 the member him or herself.

2 MR. COHEN: So an issue to consider here --

3 and this may be your question, if you'd just give me

4 one second. If not, we'll get back to it. An issue

5 to consider here is whether you want to have

6 alternates actually vote.

7 This has come up in the past where there

8 have been discussions both ways, that the people who

9 are members of this working group were picked for a

10 reason, and do you want to have people who are

11 substituting for them actually casting a vote, whether

12 it be in their name or at all. Or do you want it to

13 be that the people who are now sitting around this

14 table are the people that will actually cast the

15 votes. It's a topic you want to think through.

16 MR. BROOKMAN: I saw several people. Bob

17 first, and then I'll go to Gary and Steve and Meg.

18 MR. BARBOUR: Bob Barbour with TACO. On the

19 alternate, does the alternate need to be a U.S.

20 citizen?

21 MR. COHEN: As a practical matter, just to

22 get access to this building, yes.
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1 MR. BARBOUR: But if they already have

2 access to the -- for example, one of our guys here is

3 actually Canadian.

4 MR. COHEN: Oh. Did we know that?

5 MR. BARBOUR: Yeah. We knew it.

6 (Laughter.)

7 He had to bring his visa, because he does work in --

8 MR. COHEN: There is a whole security

9 protocol it has to go through to actually get access

10 to the building, so I assume that all occurred. I'm

11 not going to ask any more questions.

12 MR. BARBOUR: Oh, it did. Yes. Yeah. But

13 they could be a Canadian?

14 MR. COHEN: I don't know, actually. I'd

15 have to check that out. I'm not sure of the answer to

16 that question.

17 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. So we'll make a

18 notation about that. Gary.

19 MR. FERNSTROM: Gary Fernstrom, California

20 IOUs. On the subject of alternate representatives,

21 each of us who has been nominated to the task force

22 represents an interest group, and it seems to me
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1 reasonable that if we were to have an alternate

2 representative in the case we individually can't make

3 it, that individual would similarly represent the

4 interests of the sponsoring group. So I would

5 advocate for allowing alternates to vote.

6 MR. BROOKMAN: I would add, to supplement

7 that, that my general understanding, which I have

8 already said, would be that any vote is a preliminary

9 vote, until this group decides to take a final vote,

10 which would be a binding vote.

11 So preliminary votes will really matter.

12 They're important. They set the course of the

13 negotiation. But there are some -- that's the way

14 we'll conduct it.

15 Steve.

16 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Steve Rosenstock, Edison

17 Electric Institute. I'd like to agree with Gary that,

18 you know, because of our schedules, and because of all

19 of the other activities going on, I think allowing

20 alternates would allow for flexibility and allow

21 different interests to be fully represented at the

22 meetings, you know, especially if they are critical.
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1 Just also as a point, I'm involved with the

2 ASHRAE 90.1, which is commercial building energy

3 efficiency codes, and they allow organizational

4 members to have alternates. If the primary

5 representative cannot make the meeting, or is in a

6 subcommittee meeting, then the alternate can vote on

7 behalf of that organization. So it is allowed in

8 other standards development organizations.

9 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Thank you. Meg. All

10 set? Okay.

11 So, yes, Chuck.

12 MR. POWERS: Just minor, because I'm okay

13 with what you're saying so far. Chuck Powers,

14 Flowserve. When you go further, it talks about

15 attendance, so the two questions I have is, one, it

16 says if a working member cannot attend, they can do by

17 electronic means by phone. So the question to me

18 would be, how do you know who is on the phone?

19 Protocol, right? And they're listening and they

20 understand the question?

21 And, number two, it goes further and talks

22 down the decision making, 80 percent concurrence,
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1 which to me I think it indicates who is present 80

2 percent. Or is the question --

3 MR. BROOKMAN: Well, we haven't gotten to

4 the point --

5 MR. POWERS: No, no. But the reason you

6 brought up the point about having the member --

7 MR. BROOKMAN: Yeah.

8 MR. POWERS: -- have an alternate, the

9 question would be, it applies to all of these factors.

10 MR. BROOKMAN: Right, right. It does.

11 MR. POWERS: We are just -- we're looking

12 ahead saying, before you make that final, is it going

13 to apply to all of this? And how will it apply?

14 That's all.

15 MR. BROOKMAN: Yeah. So you started off by

16 saying what has been said so far you are okay with.

17 MR. POWERS: I'm understanding --

18 MR. BROOKMAN: About alternates.

19 MR. POWERS: Right. But it depends on how

20 we define these other --

21 MR. BROOKMAN: Right. So let's leave this

22 an open question. We've heard from several
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1 individuals that they would like to have their

2 alternates have the capacity to actually vote. And

3 let's move on. I'll put a big question mark next to

4 it and we're going to return to it. Okay?

5 Additional interests -- additional

6 organizational interests may join working group after

7 negotiations have begun. Meg?

8 MS. WALTNER: Oh, okay. So did you just

9 make the notation on B that we are going to change the

10 language there? Is that what you said? Because as

11 it's written now, it says alternates aren't -- only

12 working group members may vote on the consensus

13 framework.

14 MR. BROOKMAN: I just -- with D, I was -- we

15 are going to return to it, Meg.

16 MS. WALTNER: Oh, okay. Great.

17 MR. BROOKMAN: I put a question mark in my -

18 -

19 MS. WALTNER: Okay.

20 MR. BROOKMAN: And once again, this is all

21 preliminary until we decide whether or not --

22 additional interests, additional organizational
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1 interests may join the working group after

2 negotiations have begun only with the concurrence of

3 the working group.

4 That's the standard that has been used

5 elsewhere. Are you comfortable with that? Is that

6 the way you'd like to have it? Steve Rosenstock.

7 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Steve Rosenstock. Yeah.

8 You know, you read things like -- doesn't -- would

9 ASRAC have to approve it as well?

10 MR. BROOKMAN: Dan Cohen says yes.

11 MR. COHEN: Yes.

12 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Okay. It doesn't say it in

13 here. It says that we are allowed to do it ourselves,

14 the way I read it.

15 MR. BROOKMAN: That's a good point. But Dan

16 did say earlier that the membership side of this, it

17 has been kind of balanced, carefully balanced. So

18 that would be an ASRAC and DOE thing to initiate, or

19 maybe approve if this -- if the working group wanted

20 to initiate.

21 So, Dan and Betsy --

22 MR. COHEN: We'll come up with an edit for
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1 that.

2 MR. BROOKMAN: Yeah. He suggests -- then

3 maybe strike "only." After "begun" strike "only." In

4 the middle of the sentence, second sentence,

5 "Negotiations have begun only," strike "only." Yeah.

6 Additional thoughts on this?

7 (No response.)

8 Yes? Okay.

9 Attendance and participation in meetings. Of

10 course, if you're not attending these meetings, then

11 it's --

12 MR. HANDZEL: I want to come back to that.

13 Mark Handzel from Xylem.

14 MR. BROOKMAN: Yes.

15 MR. HANDZEL: Doug, at the break, I asked

16 you a question just regarding some of the attendees,

17 the representatives that were originally listed in the

18 Federal Register list, weren't here. And I think -- I

19 don't know, I asked about Gary Witt, if he had

20 formally resigned, which is one of the pump

21 manufacturers.

22 You know, so if there was a balance before,
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1 it is out of balance now. So, and I don't know if you

2 want to address this separately or --

3 MR. BROOKMAN: Jeremiah, do you know the

4 status of these individuals?

5 MR. FREEMAN: I haven't heard an update one

6 way or another, but we can find out.

7 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay.

8 MR. FREEMAN: Gary Witt and Howard

9 Richardson are the two that didn't show up and they're

10 not on the webinar, so --

11 MR. BROOKMAN: So the short answer is, we

12 don't know right now, but we will find out.

13 MR. HANDZEL: Okay.

14 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay?

15 MR. HANDZEL: Just to a balance point,

16 though, just --

17 MR. BROOKMAN: Yeah. It's a good point.

18 Okay. Jeremiah said, for the record, that

19 he is -- he didn't know the status of those two

20 individuals that aren't here.

21 MR. HANDZEL: Gary Witt and Howard

22 Richardson were the two names that he was holding up
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1 in the background.

2 MR. BROOKMAN: Yes. Please say your name.

3 MR. LIN: Paul Lin with Regal Beloit. Howard

4 Richardson's mother is actually in surgery right now,

5 so he couldn't make it. So as an alternate, I'm

6 listening in for Howard.

7 MR. BROOKMAN: Thank you. So you would be

8 Howard's alternate, we would presume.

9 MR. LIN: Yes.

10 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Thank you.

11 Okay. That's a start.

12 MR. HANDZEL: Thank you.

13 MR. BROOKMAN: That's the way this is

14 supposed to work.

15 MR. HANDZEL: Yes. Yep.

16 MR. BROOKMAN: This is good.

17 Okay. And then, attendance and

18 participation. Each working group member agrees to

19 make a good faith effort to attend every session, and

20 of course we are going to try and establish a

21 schedule, so that three months out, four months out,

22 five months out, you've got pretty clear dates on your
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1 calendar.

2 Greg.

3 MR. CASE: Again, with the electronic side

4 of this, what does "attend" mean?

5 MR. BROOKMAN: It says, the second sentence

6 says, "Attendance and voting may be by telephone or

7 other electronic means."

8 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Doug?

9 MR. BROOKMAN: Yes.

10 MR. ROSENSTOCK: This is Steve. I'm

11 thinking that sentence was meant for webinars, that if

12 we decided to do a webinar that that would be allowed,

13 to vote electronically rather than in person. I think

14 that is -- I think that was the intent.

15 MR. BROOKMAN: Jeremiah, get a microphone.

16 MR. POWERS: Well, before you answer that

17 question, let me ask, how is it done --

18 MR. BROOKMAN: Chuck, please.

19 MR. POWERS: -- since this was from the

20 previous grouping, right, how was it done before? What

21 did you do? Because this is a work -- this is a

22 document that basically took --
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1 MR. COHEN: As a practical matter, this

2 wasn't really a problem. People just scheduled it in

3 advance, and they just, you know, were able to --

4 MR. POWERS: Okay.

5 MR. COHEN: It wasn't much of an issue. In

6 terms of the webinar, what happens is, in order to get

7 onto the webinar -- and to be perfectly honest, to

8 participate you need to be on the webinar, because you

9 need to be able to see the slides and the documents

10 and whatever.

11 To get onto the webinar, you have to

12 register. So once you register and then log on,

13 Jeremiah knows you're on because he can -- he is

14 monitoring the webinar. So it would be clear that you

15 were present. Now, who dials into the phone is a

16 little harder to know.

17 MR. POWERS: But if you're going to vote --

18 MR. COHEN: If you're going to vote --

19 MR. POWERS: -- how do you hear the vote?

20 MR. COHEN: Is there a way to do that in the

21 webinar?

22 MR. FREEMAN: Yeah. So John said that
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1 ideally we'd want members to attend in person.

2 Obviously, there would be some circumstances where you

3 wouldn't be able to do that, so we do offer the

4 ability to attend by webinar. And when you -- when a

5 member does attend by webinar, we unmute them

6 directly, so they can actively jump in and out without

7 having to be called on. And then that's how you would

8 hear their vote.

9 MR. BROOKMAN: And you can hear them in the

10 room, the software. Sometimes it's not great, but

11 usually it works.

12 Meg.

13 MS. WALTNER: I wonder if we should add some

14 language to this section clarifying that the intent is

15 for people to attend in person if they can, but there

16 is the alternate option of the webinar if they're not

17 available to attend in person.

18 PARTICIPANT: It already says that.

19 MS. WALTNER: But not to attend in person.

20 MR. BROOKMAN: Oh, yeah. Okay. So if we

21 just said "in person" --

22 PARTICIPANT: "In person" after "attend."
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1 MS. WALTNER: Yeah.

2 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Thank you, Meg.

3 Louis.

4 MR. STARR: I was just going to -- we did

5 the commercial refrigeration over the summer, and so

6 that was pretty intensive. It was two weeks -- every

7 two weeks for three or four months, so it was pretty

8 impossible -- well, not totally, but a lot of people

9 did not always make those, but we did do the thing

10 over the webinar, and it had mixed results.

11 But usually the voting part worked very

12 well, but it was hard to be involved in the

13 conversation a lot of times, because the lag was

14 enough that -- but it worked well if you had someone

15 inside the room, you know, that would know that you

16 wanted to say something, and so you could get around

17 that way. But in general, the voting part I think

18 works okay. I think unless there's a very big point

19 to be made, a lot of times --

20 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay.

21 MR. STARR: -- the interaction is not as

22 good.
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1 MR. COHEN: Yeah. If I can on that point,

2 too. So, as I said, Jeremiah is actually monitoring

3 the webinar. So if somebody wants to say something,

4 they can -- on the webinar software they can click

5 something to raise their hand, and he knows and he can

6 kind of interrupt us to let us know that someone on

7 the webinar wants to be heard.

8 MR. BROOKMAN: Lucas.

9 MR. ADIN: I can speak from personal

10 experience that that has worked well in the past. So

11 I would imagine for a group like this, where everyone

12 is particularly interested in participating, we will

13 find a way to make that happen. But, so the only

14 other point I had was to -- as far as the language, we

15 are going to put "in person" in -- oh, we've got it

16 there.

17 And then maybe in the next sentence say, you

18 know, "If attendance in person is not feasible,

19 attendance and voting may" -- just to make it clear

20 that that's kind of a secondary alternative option.

21 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. And then, Louis, did

22 you have a comment?
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1 MR. STARR: Oh, no.

2 MR. BROOKMAN: Are you all set?

3 MR. POTTS: I have a question.

4 MR. BROOKMAN: Oh, yes. Please, Doug.

5 MR. POTTS: Doug Pots, American Water. As

6 far as the alternates, if for some reason one of us is

7 not able to attend and we have an alternate come and

8 replace us, is there a protocol in terms of notifying

9 you that so and so is going to be coming in my place?

10 MR. COHEN: Sure, we'd like -- please tell

11 us in advance.

12 MR. POTTS: Send an email.

13 MR. COHEN: But we're not going to question

14 who you designate as the alternate.

15 MR. BROOKMAN: The practicality here of

16 course is that if you have an alternate, one would be

17 that it's in your interest to make sure your

18 alternates -- you are communicating with your

19 alternate, so the alternate is up to speed, and that

20 you -- you know, shifting among alternates makes it

21 harder to have consistent communication. So that's

22 something for you to be worked out.
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1 MR. COHEN: And just what we were saying,

2 the way they would do that is to email the ASRAC in

3 box, because that's monitored all the time, and let

4 that box know -- send an email there saying, "Joe

5 Smith is going to be representing me at the meeting

6 on" whenever.

7 MR. BROOKMAN: Gary Fernstrom.

8 MR. FERNSTROM: Gary, California IOUs. Just

9 to make sure I am understanding this, the way this is

10 lining up now, it's preferred that we attend in

11 person. If we can't, we can attend and vote via the

12 web. We can identify an alternate, and that person

13 can attend in person or via the web and vote in our

14 behalf.

15 MR. BROOKMAN: That's a good summary.

16 MR. FERNSTROM: Okay. Thank you.

17 MR. BROOKMAN: That was clear. I think

18 that's what we have just stated.

19 MR. COHEN: That's correct. But, again, in

20 both instances, the preference is for either you or

21 the alternate to be physically here.

22 MR. BROOKMAN: And I would just reinforce
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1 that all of you have participated in negotiations. So

2 much of the effectiveness of that negotiation format

3 is face-to-face. Seventy percent of the information

4 and content is visual. Seventy percent. It's

5 established. So you want to be there if you can be

6 there, right?

7 Okay. Greg.

8 MR. CASE: Greg Case, Hydraulic Institute. I

9 was wondering if we want to set up some number for a

10 quorum, that we have original member or the members

11 listed in the Federal Register, have to be -- a

12 certain percentage of those have to be in attendance

13 for a vote, so it's not a bunch of alternates voting

14 on this that may not have all the history involved.

15 MR. BROOKMAN: That's a good question. So

16 frequently working groups, working bodies, have a

17 quorum requirement. And in this case you are wanting

18 original members quorum stated. Okay. What do you

19 think about that?

20 Mark, you look like you have something to

21 say.

22 MR. HANDZEL: Mark Handzel from Xylem. I
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1 would support it. I think, you know, the working

2 group members are going to be so key to this, I think,

3 you know, missing and not being able to participate in

4 some of this stuff would make it difficult to, you

5 know, feel like it's the right thing. So I would

6 suggest that I would support that.

7 MR. BROOKMAN: Do either of you have a

8 number in mind for this quorum?

9 MR. CASE: We said 80 percent of the

10 original membership would -- if there's 15 members

11 right now, that would put 12 original members in.

12 MR. BROOKMAN: Meg.

13 MS. WALTNER: Well, I was just going to ask,

14 would that just be to vote on the final agreement or

15 also at preliminary -- any preliminary votes we take?

16 MR. CASE: It appears that this would be

17 non-binding throughout -- until we get to the end, is

18 that correct?

19 MR. BROOKMAN: That's how I would see it.

20 You all have -- you have the ability to create the

21 kind of rules you want. My practice has been that all

22 agreements are preliminary until we get to the end,
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1 because how you -- the breadth of the agreements --

2 that is, many different agreements over the span of

3 many months can change the way you view the final

4 agreement.

5 So it would matter -- this rule would apply

6 I guess in both instances -- preliminary agreements

7 and final agreements -- unless you specify otherwise.

8 MR. COHEN: Excuse me. I thought I heard

9 something different, actually. I thought you were

10 suggesting a quorum really to conduct business, right?

11 That you want to have -- for a meeting to say that

12 there is a minimum number of original working group

13 members actually be physically present in the room.

14

15 MR. BROOKMAN: I thought he was saying to

16 take votes.

17 MR. COHEN: Well, because the other --

18 taking votes is really getting to what is consensus.

19 MR. BROOKMAN: I agree. Yeah, they're

20 related.

21 MR. COHEN: Which is a different issue we

22 haven't gotten to yet. And I would think it would be
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1 important for both.

2 MR. POWERS: I have a question. Chuck

3 Powers, Flowserve. You said 15, Greg. I see 15 here,

4 but two are missing, so it's really 17, right?

5 MR. CASE: Seventeen, right.

6 MR. POWERS: I'm assuming everyone with a

7 name tag, other than -- because Lucas --

8 MR. COHEN: Lucas is one.

9 MR. POWERS: -- votes for --

10 MR. COHEN: Yeah.

11 MR. POWERS: Right? So there are 17 when

12 you get to the numbers. Again, I'm just --

13 MR. BROOKMAN: Yes. Right.

14 Steve.

15 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Steve Rosenstock, EEI. From

16 the DOE Federal Register notice, I'm counting 16. Am I

17 missing -- is there one missing?

18 MR. POWERS: Well, there's 15 here, and

19 there's two that aren't in attendance.

20 MR. CASE: Yeah. And, Steve, Doug is the

21 other member who was not in the notice.

22 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Oh, okay. So there are 17.
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1 MR. CASE: So there are 17.

2 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Okay. I'm sorry.

3 MR. BROOKMAN: So clarify for us, Greg, are

4 you talking about having a quorum to conduct business

5 or a quorum available for decisions?

6 MR. CASE: I guess my original thought, it

7 was to be -- to make decisions. I guess we could

8 probably conduct business with whoever the group --

9 however it shows up, but to make -- to vote on things,

10 I would think that we would want to make sure that the

11 original membership was present.

12 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. What is the feeling of

13 the group? Do you want us to establish a quorum sort

14 of requirement? Louis.

15 MR. STARR: This is just from a practical

16 standpoint. I mean, you could do that. Or, in other

17 words, when you establish a certain number, then you

18 revote on it at the next meeting as the first thing of

19 business. But you might find a hard time getting 80

20 percent of the original members, so you might lower

21 that number down a little bit.

22 MR. BROOKMAN: What would you suggest?
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1 MR. STARR: I don't know. Maybe -- what is

2 the next -- is it 75? Or whatever -- 70 or something

3 lower. I don't know, two-thirds, or some factor in

4 there.

5 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay.

6 MR. STARR: But, you know, my general sense

7 is that most -- if the meetings are being productive,

8 the people are going to show up. So if you start to

9 have a dropoff in attendance, it means things aren't

10 going well.

11 So generally I don't foresee it as a

12 problem, but even today we've got -- I didn't do the

13 math real quick, but two out of 17, on that basis we

14 might have a problem approving these ground rules. Or,

15 you know, if we just had one more, or if the weather

16 is bad or something else, it could present some

17 problems. So --

18 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. That tracks my

19 experience, that if these negotiations are being

20 productive, then people are going to really try hard

21 to be here. Maybe, practically speaking, we should

22 try for a number like two-thirds or 70 percent or
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1 something like that. What do you think? That's the

2 current proposal on the table. Steve?

3 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Steve Rosenstock, EEI.

4 Again, I'll just -- going back to my ASHRAE

5 experience, to conduct meetings, it's 50 percent of

6 the members to conduct official business. Then, when

7 they do the votes, they have a letter ballot for all

8 of the members, you know, just to get the full

9 committee vote before it goes out for any publication.

10 I think two-thirds is a reasonable number.

11 Again, other things it just -- just to conduct

12 business, it's 50 percent, but I think two-thirds is a

13 reasonable number. And, again, I'm just talking about

14 conducting -- I'll say conducting business, not the

15 voting. Or both.

16 MR. BROOKMAN: So let's see if I interpret

17 this correctly. Two-thirds of the members present to

18 cast votes.

19 MR. ROSENSTOCK: That would be 11. If

20 there's 17 members, it's 11.33 at two-thirds.

21 MR. CAPPELLINO: Including via electronic

22 means?
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1 MR. BROOKMAN: Yeah. I guess it would --

2 yeah, because we have -- in our current formulation,

3 if you're present via the web and registered, either a

4 member or an alternate, then you are present. Okay?

5 So two-thirds. Steve suggests two-thirds.

6 Yes? So everybody comfortable with that?

7 MR. COHEN: Just so I'm clear on what you're

8 talking about, this is just to be able to conduct

9 business and vote, not what the vote would be in terms

10 of what a consensus is.

11 MR. BROOKMAN: Correct.

12 MR. COHEN: You have to have at least 11 of

13 the actual working group members present, not the

14 alternates, present either physically or on the web,

15 in order to conduct business -- that means holds

16 votes. You could then -- I guess if you had less than

17 11, you could still do analysis work or whatever, but

18 you couldn't hold a vote on any particular topic.

19 MR. BROOKMAN: Or those present might do a

20 lot of productive work. And then when all of the

21 snowstorm delayed flights show up in the afternoon,

22 you would catch up those individuals, and, you know,
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1 would see how to proceed to vote as -- right? Okay.

2 MR. COHEN: So it's not -- I don't think

3 it's only the alternates, right? I think it -- isn't

4 the whole idea of this is that they have actual

5 members?

6 MR. BROOKMAN: Well, I thought we had said

7 that an alternate is like a working group member if

8 you're registered. But what was your original

9 thought? Oh, that was your original thought. Not

10 alternates. Original members, not alternates. Good

11 point. Good catch.

12 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Doug, this is Steve. So

13 under this, alternates wouldn't count for this quorum.

14 Am I correct?

15 MR. COHEN: That was the proposal.

16 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Okay.

17 MR. BROOKMAN: Steve.

18 MR. ROSENSTOCK: This is Steve. I'm not --

19 I'm a little uncomfortable with that, because the idea

20 of the alternate was, for whatever reason, the primary

21 member just cannot physically make the meeting or

22 can't be there electronically, so -- I understand the
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1 intent. I'm just a little uncomfortable with it

2 because that just -- you know, if the alternates are

3 there, they don't count for the quorum. I might be a

4 little uncomfortable with this one.

5 MR. BROOKMAN: Greg.

6 MR. CASE: Greg Case, HI. I guess my

7 thought is is, I mean, we only need 11 out of 17. So

8 there would have to be a lot of alternates in the room

9 already, and they're not going to have all the

10 history. And so you would have a number of members

11 that may not have the history at that point, and they

12 could be swayed pretty easily, possibly by arguments

13 that have already gone on in the past and/or

14 discussions that have gone on in the past. And that

15 might lead to a decision being made that the original

16 member would not have supported.

17 MR. BROOKMAN: Lucas.

18 MR. ADIN: If I could make just a quick

19 comment. I mean, I don't know that we have a strong

20 position on this one way or the other, but one thing

21 to consider is that we will think about a schedule of

22 meetings, and in each meeting we will think very
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1 carefully about the date, make sure that, you know, we

2 can accommodate this quorum to the maximum extent

3 possible.

4 So we will have an opportunity, in other

5 words, to try and work around these.

6 MR. BROOKMAN: As Dan already suggested,

7 this also has bearing on your definition of consensus.

8 So maybe we should just talk about that a little bit

9 right now and see how the two might match up.

10 Gary.

11 MR. FERNSTROM: Before we go on to

12 consensus, my observation is each of our interest

13 groups has a lot of ways to be represented, either by

14 our original nominee or through an alternate or over

15 the web. And presumably we are coordinating with our

16 interest group internally enough so that whoever is

17 representing the interest is going to be well versed

18 in the position that wants to be taken. So I'm not

19 too concerned about this.

20 MR. BROOKMAN: Are you concerned about a

21 quorum for, for example, the final vote?

22 MR. FERNSTROM: Not really. You know, the
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1 quorum is kind of low. But if we're worried about our

2 interests not being represented in the vote, we will

3 make sure to be represented, and there are a lot of

4 ways to do it.

5 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Okay. So where are we

6 on a quorum that amounts to two-thirds? Steve, you

7 didn't like that.

8 MR. ROSENSTOCK: I can live with it I think.

9 Because of the scheduling, they are going to make

10 efforts to get all of us there I think. Again, I can

11 live with it. It all depends on scheduling.

12 MR. BROOKMAN: The working group must

13 establish a quorum of at least two-thirds of the

14 active working group members -- 11 --

15 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Including remote

16 attendance.

17 MR. FERNSTROM: Gary, California IOUs. I

18 have a question about that. The term we're using is

19 "active working group members." And if I understood

20 Greg right, he was talking about original, or did you

21 mean active?

22 MR. CASE: The ones published in the Federal
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1 Register.

2 MR. FERNSTROM: So maybe we would be better

3 to substitute -- oh, thank you.

4 MR. COHEN: So I guess the only thing to

5 think about on that is, what if -- this gets back to,

6 what if somebody leaves their company or, you know,

7 someone leaves the industry or whatever, who is on

8 this working group, and so we change -- either we

9 don't appoint someone to replace that person, or we

10 replace them with someone else.

11 MR. ROSENSTOCK: "Original" or "appointed"?

12 MR. COHEN: So I don't know if it's

13 "original" or maybe it's "actual" working group

14 members, as opposed to --

15 MR. ROSENSTOCK: "Original" or "appointed"?

16 Or "approved"?

17 MR. ECKMAN: Yeah. They are designated by

18 DOE and ASRAC, so --

19 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Approved, then.

20 MR. ECKMAN: -- somehow they are --

21 MR. COHEN: Well, I think you want both. I

22 think the idea is we could both original or --
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1 MR. FERNSTROM: So, Gary, California IOUs. I

2 think it's good as modified. What we mean is, as Greg

3 said, the ones in the Federal Register or their

4 substitute. So "approved" is fine.

5 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Charlie?

6 MR. CAPPELLINO: Charlie Cappellino with

7 ITT. The question I have is, how frequently would a

8 vote take place? Is this a one-time instance? Is

9 this 10? Is it -- just to get a general sense.

10 MR. BROOKMAN: The working group will figure

11 this out as it's going along. That's the first thing.

12 The second thing is that my experience with a limited

13 number of negotiated rulemaking efforts is that there

14 are certain spots along this negotiation pathway where

15 you want to confirm some results or establish some

16 sort of a benchmark.

17 And so you take votes, and it's a good thing

18 for the committee, and you -- you know, and as members

19 of the committee, you -- by the end of taking a bunch

20 of votes and you consider a final agreement, you may

21 not have gotten everything you wanted in the span of

22 it, but you're looking at all you have achieved
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1 through these interim or preliminary votes. And so it

2 makes it easier in the final analysis to say, "Okay.

3 I'm good with that."

4 So I presume, unless you decide, that we

5 will be taking preliminary votes, and you all may

6 decide to do it differently, and that's your choice.

7 And I'm here to serve in whatever way you want to do

8 it, but that's my general experience. Do you wish to

9 --

10 Okay. So I'm about to move on from A,

11 quorum. The working group must establish a quorum of

12 at least two-thirds of the original approved working

13 group members, 11, including remote attendance.

14 Louis.

15 MR. STARR: I would suggest just removing

16 the 11 out of that number. If two people left the

17 group, now it's no longer two-thirds. It's 11. So --

18 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. It's descriptive

19 without the 11.

20 MR. STARR: Right.

21 MR. BROOKMAN: So let's, then, talk about

22 participation. We'll defer on --
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1 MS. WALTNER: Sorry.

2 MR. BROOKMAN: Yes, Meg.

3 MS. WALTNER: Just to be clear, that we're

4 rounding down from 11.3.

5 (Laughter.)

6 MR. COHEN: Only two-thirds of you need to

7 show up, .666.

8 MR. BROOKMAN: Participation. Only working

9 group members or alternates have the privilege of

10 sitting at the table and speaking on the floor during

11 negotiations, except -- and these are important

12 provisions -- members may call upon other individuals

13 to elaborate, and my intention is to keep this quite

14 informal as -- without diminishing the effectiveness

15 of the group. Right?

16 So if there is a resource person that a

17 member wishes to call, that's great. Knowing about it

18 in advance, so it can be scheduled comfortably, that

19 would be even better. Working group counsel may raise

20 and address appropriate points. That makes total

21 sense to me.

22 Anything that is especially complicated or
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1 difficult, probably the working group would need to

2 receive something like a draft in advance or something

3 like that, so you're not dropping a whole bunch of

4 really complicated stuff on the members as soon as

5 they arrive here at 8:00 on day two. Right?

6 Any person attending the working group

7 meetings may address working group, if time permits,

8 or file statements with the working group. So if we

9 keep it really informal, then this can be very fluid,

10 and particularly if everybody stays on point and is

11 very focused and efficient. And if it isn't that way,

12 then we can do something like have a designated

13 comment period or something like that, if it doesn't -

14 - if it isn't simply sensibly fluid and courteous and

15 working well.

16 So what do you think about what is written

17 here -- participation? Al?

18 MR. HUBER: No problem.

19 MR. BROOKMAN: No problem? My experience

20 is, people of good faith wanting to get things done,

21 they are going to work real hard to try and make this

22 happen. We are going to be very cooperative,
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1 collaborative in the enterprise.

2 And if someone has got something important

3 to say, we are going to find some way to get it in

4 there. If it's really complicated and difficult, they

5 we may need to figure out some way to -- some other

6 mechanism so it can be fully and adequately

7 considered. But the working group can determine the

8 means by which that gets done.

9 Louis.

10 MR. STARR: In my experience on the

11 commercial refrigeration and air handling equipment,

12 there was a lot of specialty items, and a lot of times

13 it was very hard to represent everybody that makes

14 every piece of equipment out there. So it was very

15 helpful to actually have audience members that

16 participated in the process that had particular

17 knowledge and information.

18 So to some extent, if you just left it to

19 the moderator to kind of make that call on how it's

20 going, if it's being productive, then I think the more

21 informal that information be provided, the better the

22 process would be.
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1 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Thank you. And I'll

2 be very happy to serve in that role.

3 So are we okay with participation as written

4 here, I think? Yes, okay.

5 Constituents' interests? Members are

6 expected to represent the concerns of their interest

7 group and to ensure that any agreement developed by

8 the working group is acceptable to the organization or

9 caucus the working group member represents.

10 And this is important because later on in

11 this set of ground rules when it comes to the

12 obligations that go along with you voting to obtain a

13 consensus, one of the obligations is that you will --

14 unless you decide to make it otherwise, that you will

15 not act negatively on the terms of what you've agreed

16 to. That is, you will stand behind what you -- at

17 least you will not comment negatively on what you have

18 voted as an agreement.

19 That is coming later, yeah.

20 MR. HANDZEL: What the group did.

21 MR. BROOKMAN: What the group did. Yeah,

22 what the group agreed to and then you and your
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1 interest, the interest that you are representing, you

2 and your interests, the entire interest, will not act

3 negatively.

4 Yes, Bob.

5 MR. BARBOUR: Bob Barbour with TACO. I

6 thought that in some of the other forms similar to

7 this that it stated if you had voted negatively

8 against a particular issue you still retain your right

9 to be able to use your public comment.

10 MR. COHEN: Yes. This is a point to be

11 discussed and negotiated. There have been different

12 views in different ground rules for rulemakings that

13 we have done on this process.

14 MR. BARBOUR: This is Bob Barbour again. My

15 concern was if there were, for example, two parties

16 that felt negative on a particular issue but the

17 overall group voted for a consensus, I know I myself

18 wouldn't want to lose my right to be able to comment

19 later. I don't know how the others in the group feel,

20 but I'd pose that question.

21 MR. BROOKMAN: And it's something to be

22 discussed, and also hinges on how you define
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1 "consensus." Okay? So if we're okay with

2 constituents' interest, which I believe we are, as I'm

3 scanning the room, right, for -- if there is any

4 twitch, I'm going to see it up here -- move to

5 decision-making, and the key feature there being a

6 consensus. And you will note that the second

7 sentence, "There are a variety of options there for

8 you to consider." The working group will operate by

9 consensus, which for these purposes means unanimous

10 concurrence, all members saying yes, or all members

11 saying good enough; concurrence of 80 percent;

12 concurrence of the majority -- so that's a pretty good

13 spectrum right there -- of all parties to the

14 negotiation present and voting.

15 MR. COHEN: And I have to do it -- before

16 you engage in this conversation, I have to make one

17 point overall, which is this process works under a

18 statute called the Negotiated Rulemaking Act, and that

19 Act actually defines consensus as unanimity unless the

20 group agrees to something else.

21 So in the absence of you reaching an

22 agreement on something else, it is unanimity. And in
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1 order to reach an agreement on something else, you

2 need unanimity.

3 (Laughter.)

4 MR. POWERS: Chuck Powers, Flowserve. I

5 have a question. In the earlier explanation given by

6 Lucas, it said that, you know, in simple terms, this

7 working group would be banned if we couldn't come to a

8 conclusion of some sort or an agreement.

9 MR. COHEN: I think he said if this -- well

10 --

11 MR. POWERS: What I'm trying to get to is if

12 you say unanimous, and you have -- you know, there is

13 17 members, and 16 say okay, and one says no, for all

14 the right reasons, out of respect, then you are going

15 to be stuck. If you go the next step and say 80

16 percent or something of a -- you're allowed to have,

17 you know, on the different voting, one person may say,

18 "Look, that's going to be a problem for this" or "I

19 may have to close a plant because of this."

20 MR. COHEN: Right.

21 MR. POWERS: That's okay. But then that, if

22 you don't -- if you have unanimous, then you're stuck.
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1 MR. COHEN: That's absolutely correct, and

2 different working groups have handled that in

3 different ways.

4 MR. POWERS: Right.

5 MR. COHEN: So, for instance, one group that

6 we had where they agreed that unanimity was consensus,

7 they said that was -- that it was unanimity absent an

8 affirmative expression of opposition evidenced by a

9 negative vote. So it allowed for abstention to not

10 upset unanimity. You actually had to vote no against

11 it.

12 So you could have less than everybody voting

13 for it, as long as no one actively voted against it.

14 And that left people some room and comfort that they

15 might not want to blow up an agreement that is

16 otherwise generally okay with 17 of the 18 members, or

17 16 of the 17, whatever it may be, but they couldn't

18 bring themselves to vote for it either. Right? And

19 it left room. That was how they dealt with it. Others

20 have dealt with it by having a percentage.

21 MR. POWERS: But the fourth line down says,

22 "Abstention shall be construed as a negative vote."
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1 MR. BROOKMAN: Shall not be.

2 MR. POWERS: Shall not be.

3 MR. COHEN: Yeah.

4 MR. BROOKMAN: Lucas.

5 MR. ADIN: So that language is effectively

6 included in this proposed version, but, you know,

7 again, your point is a very good one, and that is

8 something, you know, that is really kind of critical

9 to deciding what we are going to do here. And I would

10 certainly be interested to hear from the other members

11 who have participated in these before.

12 MR. POWERS: Well, I have one more question

13 -- Chuck Powers, Flowserve -- then. And that is, if

14 before we said -- and Lucas brought it up -- we had 11

15 out of 17, which I think is important, but then we

16 said two-thirds, which is 66 percent, which is what --

17 and two-thirds doesn't agree with 80 percent, so all

18 of a sudden we're going to have -- you know, I would

19 like to see -- my own opinion -- is consistency

20 between, you know, the two paragraphs.

21 MR. BROOKMAN: Ah. So that's an interesting

22 point and one to be discussed I believe.
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1 Gary.

2 MR. FERNSTROM: Okay. So -- Gary,

3 California IOUs. I agree that abstention not being

4 counted as a negative vote worked very well previously

5 and would like to stick with that. I have a process

6 suggestion, and that is as we discuss what consensus

7 is, rather than talk about percentages we talk about

8 absolute numbers, three out of 17, four out of 17,

9 because that's what really matters to our group.

10 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. And just to confirm,

11 we do have -- we will have 17 or do have 17 members at

12 this point?

13 MR. FERNSTROM: Uh-huh.

14 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Okay. So that's a

15 good point.

16 Al.

17 MR. HUBER: First of all, Gary Witt will not

18 be participating because he is leaving the industry as

19 of January 1st. Just so you know. So you've lost one

20 -- Gary Witt. So he will not be.

21 MR. COHEN: I'm not sure he has communicated

22 that to us yet, so we --
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1 MR. HUBER: He may not have, but he -- I

2 just want to make sure you understand he will not be

3 here.

4 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay.

5 MR. HUBER: Okay? And we have asked his

6 company to come forward with someone else, and they

7 have not responded.

8 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. So, but going to

9 Gary's last point, if you wanted to use that process,

10 that protocol, then it would simply be the number of

11 members with some number dissenting, that that would

12 still constitute consensus. Did you follow me? Yes?

13 MR. HUBER: I think. I think what you had

14 in previous -- and we have read through some of these

15 -- is so many negative votes. One negative vote or

16 two negative -- or no more than two negative votes,

17 and I think if we go with that route, then you don't

18 have to worry about exactly how many members you've

19 got --

20 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay.

21 MR. HUBER: -- how many members are here.

22 MR. BROOKMAN: Go ahead, Gary.
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1 MR. HUBER: You can have so many negative

2 votes. And this was in -- I think it was in the --

3 yeah, it was in the refrigeration. I thought that was

4 -- you know, we have discussed it amongst ourselves

5 and think it's pretty reasonable.

6 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Gary.

7 MR. FERNSTROM: Let me be even more

8 conspicuously open about this. I think what we want

9 is an outcome where no individual participant can

10 block consensus. On the other hand, we want to have

11 assurance that an interest group, such as the energy

12 advocates, collectively, if we all agree, can block

13 consensus.

14 MR. BROOKMAN: Right.

15 MR. FERNSTROM: So, and I believe industry

16 probably feels the same way.

17 MR. BROOKMAN: And that's the balancing that

18 you see in the representation around the table here.

19 Steve.

20 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Steve Rosenstock, Edison

21 Electric Institute. Again, just my experience with

22 other standards development organizations -- I was
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1 involved with the transformer one, too, I'll get to

2 that one -- they have been two-thirds or three3 quarters for votes for putting out publications or,

4 you know, revisions to standards.

5 So, again, to put out the numbers, at two6 thirds it would be 11.33; at 75 percent, it would be

7 12.75; and at 80 percent, it would be 13.6, assuming

8 17 members. That's, again, depending on what happens

9 to the actual membership. At this point, that --

10 obviously rounded up or down.

11 And I believe -- with transformers, I

12 believe the number was 90 percent, as I recall, or no

13 more than two negative votes. I would have to double14 check. It was a pretty high bar for transformers, as

15 I recall.

16 MR. COHEN: As I recall transformers, it was

17 zero negative votes.

18 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Zero negative votes. Even

19 higher bar. Okay. Even higher bar. Thank you for

20 that clarification. I knew it was an extremely high

21 bar. So thank you. Again, just for numbers for

22 everybody.
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1 MR. BROOKMAN: Louis.

2 MR. STARR: You know, in reality, I guess

3 the CRE group really did two things. They indicated

4 when there is unanimous decisions, when everybody

5 voted on something, and then they sort of did the

6 other one where it wasn't unanimous but it was -- they

7 had another term for it. So they recorded both, and

8 so that helped -- that was helpful in the ASRAC when

9 they saw the decisions going forward.

10 MR. BROOKMAN: And that was a part of the

11 final report.

12 MR. STARR: Right. So you'd sort of be

13 aware of where the disagreements were.

14 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay.

15 MR. STARR: And then, in terms of the

16 number, you know, I didn't really do the math on it,

17 but I think it should end up somewhere at three or

18 four, that being the number which something can't be

19 considered a unanimous concurrence. And it should

20 really be based upon the number of people that are

21 actually there voting at the time, or even if it's

22 electronically.
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1 So, in other words, you establish your

2 quorum, and then after that it's who is in the room

3 votes, and that is sort of set up. So maybe the

4 number can be based -- so, in other words, if 12

5 people are there, and I guess, you know, it's -- you

6 start to become -- whether it's a percentage of who is

7 voting or the number of negative votes, if someone is

8 really interested, they should be either

9 electronically or, you know, there in person, so --

10 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. So let me just lay out

11 one pathway here. I could imagine during the course

12 of this negotiation those present and working in the

13 working group would cast a series of votes, and, you

14 know, establish sort of a body of agreements, all of

15 which are preliminary.

16 And then, you get near the end of this

17 negotiation and you're getting to the point where a

18 final agreement is sought. And then, at that point, I

19 presume that virtually every member is going to really

20 try really hard to be there to participate and vote on

21 final agreements, and also at that point have the

22 potential to reconsider preliminary agreements. Right?
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1 All of which, you know, gets me to the point

2 of thinking that establishing consensus, however you

3 decide to do it, that whether it's two or three

4 negatively voting, or whether it's total unanimity, if

5 you've got some -- if you've got some quorum for work,

6 then that voting requirement is going to be pretty

7 easy. People are going to want to be there for that

8 vote. That's my point.

9 Gary.

10 MR. FERNSTROM: Let me try and move this

11 forward by throwing out a number. I would propose

12 that consensus is 13 out of 17. Why don't we discuss

13 that?

14 MR. BROOKMAN: Is that -- you would say no

15 more than four voting negatively.

16 MR. FERNSTROM: That's correct.

17 MR. ADIN: Can I ask just a clarifying

18 question?

19 MR. BROOKMAN: Lucas.

20 MR. ADIN: Now that we know that one of the

21 original members is not actually a member anymore, are

22 we certain that it is going to be 17?
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1 MR. BROOKMAN: We're not.

2 MR. FERNSTROM: Well, I -- this is Gary

3 again. I had assumed that the 17th member would be

4 replaced. But, you know, we should be clear about

5 that.

6 MR. BROOKMAN: Yes, sure. And if we are

7 talking about a number of individuals who have the

8 ability to vote no and not derail a consensus, then

9 whether it's 16 or 17 doesn't matter.

10 MR. FERNSTROM: Right. The reason 17 is

11 important in my mind is because when this group was

12 convened somebody attempted to achieve a balance of

13 interest, and industry is missing one vote if that

14 17th member isn't replaced.

15 MR. ADIN: So to respond to that point, I

16 think maybe for the purposes of this discussion, we

17 should work under the assumption that that member will

18 be replaced and that we are working from a base of 17.

19 MR. FERNSTROM: So that's what I would like

20 to do -- assume a base of 17 and, again, put on the

21 table my recommendation that consensus is 13 of the 17

22 or four stated negative votes, not abstentions.
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1 MR. POWERS: Chuck Powers from Flowserve. I

2 know the Pentair people, like some of us in this room,

3 very well. I think we'll be able to -- they are a

4 pretty large company, a lot of interest in this whole

5 thing, and I think we can find a way to get that taken

6 care of.

7 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. So should we -- having

8 a proposal on the table, that's very helpful, moves

9 things forward.

10 Louis.

11 MR. STARR: You know, I think that four is

12 fine. One thing I would kind of maybe -- as far as

13 preliminary, and then the final vote on it, you know,

14 the final vote really became more just a technicality.

15 Really, the preliminary votes -- or actually

16 decisions, if every time you are going -- I mean, in

17 that meeting that we had over there, we probably had

18 70 preliminary votes.

19 So to go back and visit those a second time

20 three months later is probably not a good plan. I

21 mean, I would kind of encourage people to think those

22 preliminary votes as the -- the final vote.
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1 And the other thing is, I don't know if we

2 addressed this, but as far as negatively commenting on

3 things -- in other words, if I voted negatively on

4 some things which in that committee I did a couple of

5 times, we still weren't allowed to have negative

6 commentary on Department of Energy. And there's a

7 reason for that, and that's because --

8 MR. BROOKMAN: On the entire package.

9 MR. STARR: Well, on the entire package, and

10 on the individual pieces.

11 MR. BROOKMAN: Yeah.

12 MR. STARR: Basically, there was no

13 negative, and what it does is encourage you to work on

14 getting consensus there, because if I just know I can

15 negatively comment on stuff at the end, it doesn't

16 make the process work as well. So I would consider

17 that.

18 MR. BROOKMAN: So thank you for that

19 elaboration, and that is a better description than my

20 little bitty shorthand description. That was helpful.

21 Do you have a comment, Bob?

22 MR. BARBOUR: Yes. Bob Barbour. One of my
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1 comments is I just think that four is too high a

2 number. I really think that it should be more like

3 two or more.

4 MR. BROOKMAN: Two or more.

5 MR. BARBOUR: In my opinion. I don't think

6 you work hard enough to get consensus when you have

7 that large a group of people that could be voting

8 against --

9 MR. BROOKMAN: Would you be okay with there?

10 MR. BARBOUR: I'd be okay with three.

11 MR. BROOKMAN: Year? How many of you would

12 be comfortable with three? Does anyone seriously

13 object with three having the potential to vote no and

14 still obtain a consensus?

15 MR. COHEN: Can I just ask one

16 clarification? So that's three negative votes? Or 16

17 positive votes? Or no --

18 MR. HUBER: I think you want to put it --

19 the number of negative votes, because you're not sure

20 how many you are going to have -- I mean, you may not

21 have 16 people here.

22 MR. FERNSTROM: Okay. So this is Gary.
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1 Since this is a suggested modification to my original

2 proposal, I am okay with three negative votes. So

3 that would mean some number of positive votes or

4 abstentions --

5 MR. BROOKMAN: Right.

6 MR. FERNSTROM: -- but no more than three --

7 MR. BROOKMAN: No more than three negative

8 votes.

9 MR. FERNSTROM: -- negative votes.

10 MR. BROOKMAN: Lucas, go ahead.

11 MR. ADIN: Just another point of

12 clarification. That is three negative votes

13 regardless of the number of members actually present

14 and voting as long as a quorum is established. Is

15 that --

16 MR. BROOKMAN: Yeah.

17 MR. FERNSTROM: Yeah. Presuming that our

18 group totals 17.

19 MR. ADIN: Right.

20 MR. COHEN: So what we're getting at there

21 is the abstentions, right? What about abstentions?

22 You could have -- you know, if there are 17 people,
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1 two negatives, three abstentions, right, and 12 -- and

2 you're okay with that? That's -- okay.

3 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay? So I'm casting my eyes

4 around the room. Steve, do you want to comment here?

5 MR. ROSENSTOCK: So in the case of -- if

6 there is, again, 11 members in the room at a meeting,

7 and/or calling, or whatever, there is just 11 people

8 attending meeting X, the vote could be eight to three.

9 It could be -- well, I guess the other -- it could be

10 four, three, and then the rest -- and four

11 abstentions, and it would still pass, right? Because

12 abstentions are not considered a negative vote.

13 PARTICIPANT: Three negative votes fails.

14 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Oh, I'm sorry. Excuse me.

15 Three, two, and the rest abstentions, and it would

16 still pass.

17 MR. BROOKMAN: But an unlikely event. We

18 are not going to be conducting a lot of business on a

19 consistent basis with a lot of members --

20 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Oh, I know. I know.

21 MR. BROOKMAN: -- 11 members here present --

22 MR. ROSENSTOCK: I'm sure that won't happen.
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1 I'm just saying that --

2 MR. BROOKMAN: -- we're not --

3 MR. ROSENSTOCK: -- in a weird situation,

4 just --

5 MR. BROOKMAN: I mean, I am going to go out

6 on the street and start looking for folks.

7 (Laughter.)

8 PARTICIPANT: They have to be appointed by

9 the ASRAC, I'm sorry, and DOE. You can't do that,

10 Doug.

11 MR. ECKMAN: Since the agreement has to come

12 before ASRAC, you know, we are going to take a look at

13 what that -- what the polling was.

14 MR. BROOKMAN: Yeah.

15 MR. ECKMAN: I mean, we did when we looked

16 at the C&I stuff. We said, you know, there is virtual

17 consensus on all of these items. There was a few

18 where it was 24 to two or something like that. And,

19 you know, if we see that there is a paucity of votes

20 or a split vote, that is going to influence what the

21 ASRAC -- what the committee thinks about the

22 recommendation.
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1 MR. BROOKMAN: That's good. Thanks, Tom.

2 MR. ECKMAN: You know, I think it's

3 important to think through how that will play forward

4 in addition to just in the group.

5 MR. BROOKMAN: That's helpful. Lucas.

6 MR. ADIN: It also seems worthwhile to

7 consider that potentially this is a method of creating

8 a system where there is an incentive for positive

9 action as opposed to abstaining. So people will

10 actually have an incentive to really think hard about

11 the issues and make a vote.

12 MR. BROOKMAN: Louis.

13 MR. STARR: The other thing is, with Steve's

14 example, there are still people -- as long as you

15 establish the quorum, then the votes can be

16 electronic. And that actually happened quite a bit

17 where some of the major refrigeration manufacturers

18 were on the telephone and participating quite well and

19 also -- obviously voted on it, too, and it worked out

20 pretty well, I thought.

21 MR. BROOKMAN: Gary?

22 MR. FERNSTROM: So --
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1 MR. BROOKMAN: Pardon me, Gary. I lost Meg.

2 Meg, you're next.

3 MS. WALTNER: Well, I just wanted to

4 clarify, so in the refrigeration equipment, we worded

5 -- or they worded it as consensus means no more than

6 two negative votes. But then the way I heard it

7 restated was that three negative votes --

8 MR. COHEN: Yeah. We're just fixing that

9 right now.

10 MS. WALTNER: Oh, you did.

11 MR. COHEN: Absolutely.

12 MS. WALTNER: Okay. Okay.

13 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay?

14 MS. WALTNER: So I think we thought we were

15 agreeing to that number being three. I don't know if

16 that's what --

17 MR. BARBOUR: Well, I think I would agree

18 that no more than two. If there were three, then it

19 would fail.

20 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Yeah. So, Bob, for

21 the record? Bob? Hit the microphone. Please say it

22 again.
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1 MR. BARBOUR: For the record, I guess I'm

2 not completely clear what you are saying.

3 MS. WALTNER: Yes. So I thought when Louis

4 suggested four he was saying -- and the way it's

5 constructed there, that consensus would mean there

6 were no more than four negatives, and then I heard you

7 say back no more than two negatives. And I thought we

8 agreed on no more than three negatives. But maybe we

9 were not saying --

10 MR. BARBOUR: This is Bob Barbour again. No.

11 My statement would be more along the lines of two, no

12 more than two negative -- three negatives would be in

13 effect voting down a consensus.

14 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. So where -- it seems

15 like we're at a point where we are between these two -

16 - no more than two voting negative or no more than

17 three voting negative. And you know what? We're due

18 for lunch. So let's pause for lunch. It is now

19 12:45.

20 And one thing that is great about a

21 negotiation like this, at a break you get to consult

22 with your colleagues, among other things. Right?
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1 Gary.

2 MR. FERNSTROM: Gary, California IOUs. We

3 are so close. Can we maybe take a vote on this before

4 we go? Because I'm agreeing with Bob where three

5 negative votes would prevent --

6 MR. BROOKMAN: Derail a consensus.

7 MR. FERNSTROM: Yes. And I'd like to call

8 the question and vote on that because --

9 MR. BROOKMAN: Well, I'm willing to give it

10 a shot. Does everybody feel like they're comfortable

11 doing this?

12 Okay. So the proposal on the table -- and

13 if we don't -- let me just say, we need to achieve

14 unanimity on this to change the rules, right? We need

15 -- everybody has got to get behind this.

16 Louis, go ahead.

17 MR. STARR: I would say why don't we go

18 after lunch. Because then we can talk a little more.

19 MR. BROOKMAN: Gary, he wants to -- okay. So

20 I take that advice. We are going to pause for lunch.

21 It's 12:45.

22 Before we do anything else, we have had a
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1 very productive start on the meeting of this working

2 group. I'm very, very pleased, and I'm -- the

3 prospects seem very bright for this group.

4 It is now 12:45. It takes an hour to each

5 lunch here. Almost all of you know the way around, I

6 think. Maybe you don't. Follow the group.

7 (Laughter.)

8 There is a big cafeteria. You go down to the ground

9 floor, about 100 yards in that direction, and there is

10 also a Subway shop just where the coffee shop is down

11 below. It takes just about an hour to get this done,

12 which means we will resume at 1:45 in this room.

13 Dan?

14 MR. COHEN: May I make one quick suggestion

15 on that? I would suggest the Subway, because to go to

16 the cafeteria you are technically leaving the

17 building, and you have to go through security to come

18 back in. So it's sort of more of a pain in the neck

19 if you go to the cafeteria.

20 MR. BROOKMAN: And to get back through the

21 security portal, you might need an ID. Okay. But

22 this room will be secured. You can leave your stuff
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1 here and enjoy your lunch.

2 Steve.

3 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Well, I've gone to the

4 cafeteria many times. As long as you go through the

5 portal, you go down the stairs, there's -- that's the

6 only step. You go through the security portal at the

7 exit of the cafeteria.

8 MR. COHEN: But there's security. You have

9 to go back through the --

10 MR. ROSENSTOCK: No. You just go down the

11 steps and you come back over.

12 MR. COHEN: You don't have to go through

13 security again?

14 MR. FERNSTROM: What they require is you

15 show your badge, you go through the metal detector,

16 you know, and you are back.

17 MR. BROOKMAN: Sometimes you need an ID.

18 MR. FERNSTROM: Yeah. You need your ID.

19 MR. COHEN: Technically, they are not

20 supposed to do that, but --

21 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Can you erase that from the

22 record, please? I don't want to get --
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1 MR. BROOKMAN: We'll resume at 1:45.

2 (Lunch recess.)

3 MR. BROOKMAN: Please take your seats. So

4 we had a very productive morning, and thanks to all of

5 you for that -- and we have made really good progress

6 on the ground rules so far.

7 And where we left off with the ground rules

8 was in Item Number 3-A, on the definition of

9 "consensus," and I thought we were very close to

10 obtaining unanimity on the definition, but we didn't

11 quite get there before we went to lunch.

12 And so, as I recall, we had two options that

13 were on the table, and they are -- correct me if I'm

14 wrong here -- either two votes by members to block or

15 derail a consensus, or three votes by members to block

16 or derail a consensus.

17 I think -- wasn't that it? Go ahead.

18 MR. HUBER: It's Al Huber. I think what

19 we're saying with the way the verbiage is up there is

20 --

21 MR. BROOKMAN: Yeah -- I can't see behind

22 you, but go ahead.
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1 MR. HUBER: More than two negative votes, so

2 it would take three negative votes and you wouldn't

3 have a consensus.

4 MR. BROOKMAN: Right. Three negative votes

5 to block or derail a consensus.

6 MR. FERNSTROM: So -- this is Gary at

7 California IOU's.

8 Let me summarize and restate that. I had

9 proposed it would take four negative votes to block,

10 and Bob proposed alternatively that it would take at

11 least three, and I think we ought to vote on his

12 proposal.

13 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Louis?

14 MR. STARR: Yeah. Part of it, I think, was

15 just the language there, so after I understood more

16 what I think Al just said there, and then Gary, now

17 I'm on board with that it takes three, because the way

18 I was reading that it seemed like it would take two.

19 Three seems like a reasonable number, so I think --

20 MR. BROOKMAN: So just to restate. If three

21 members vote negatively, then there's no consensus. If

22 two members vote negatively, than the group has still
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1 achieved consensus. Okay?

2 That's what we're about to vote on, and to

3 make sure everybody is comfortable they understand

4 what we're voting on. This is an important rule.

5 Of course, the deal with consensus, as you

6 all know, I presume, is that if this group delivers a

7 consensus on the term sheet -- on the details

8 surrounding the standards, and the test procedure

9 stuff, and whatever else you decide in the scope, then

10 the Secretary of Energy is bound, to the extent

11 possible, to use that in his or her notice of proposed

12 rulemaking.

13 So it's a nice quid pro quo -- you work hard

14 to create an agreement, and the Secretary is bound to

15 use that stuff in the actual notice that goes out.

16 Gary?

17 MR. FERNSTROM: Okay. So, just to be clear,

18 we need a real consensus to agree on the phony

19 consensus?

20 (Laughter.)

21 MR. BROOKMAN: We need -- to depart from

22 this statute definition, we need everybody that is a
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1 member here to agree, yes, and then you will have

2 established a new voting standard, and that will be

3 the standard for going forward from that point

4 forward. Okay? Yes, Bob?

5 MR. BARBOUR: Bob Barbour. So, at the end

6 of the determination of all these rules we'll have a

7 final vote on this again. So this is still somewhat

8 of a unary vote?

9 MR. BROOKMAN: I guess so, yeah.

10 MR. BARBOUR: Okay.

11 MR. BROOKMAN: But I think that we've given

12 this enough thought that I would hope that we're not

13 going to have to reconsider this much. Steve?

14 MR. ROSENSTOCK: So, again, just being a

15 numbers geek, if there's a minimum quorum, let's say

16 of 11 people in the room at that time, and we're

17 taking a vote, if it's 9 to 2 it passes, if it's 8 to

18 3 it fails?

19 MR. BROOKMAN: That's correct.

20 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Not assuming any

21 abstentions or anything, but that's the way -- in that

22 case, that's the way it would fall out.
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1 And obviously if it's more people it would

2 still be up to -- 15 to 2 passes, 14 to 3 fails.

3 MR. BROOKMAN: Right.

4 MR. ROSENSTOCK: If we have a full

5 attendance.

6 MR. BROOKMAN: However many members we have

7 present --

8 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Yep. I just wanted to

9 throw out the numbers just so everybody understood

10 what was --

11 MR. BROOKMAN: If three members say, "nay,"

12 there's no consensus.

13 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Okay. Thank you.

14 MR. BROOKMAN: So I'm going to call this to

15 question. Is everybody comfortable?

16 (No response.)

17 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. All those in favor of

18 the proposal as stated, where it takes three members

19 present and voting negatively to derail or stop a

20 consensus, say "aye."

21 MEMBERS: "Aye."

22 MR. BROOKMAN: I'm casting my eyes around
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1 the room, for the record, and I noticed that every

2 single person sitting here says, "aye."

3 Okay. So we now -- congratulations, that's

4 your first agreement.

5 (Applause.)

6 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Excellent. Thank you

7 for that. Moving on from here, a lot of the stuff

8 following this element is useful and necessary, but

9 not as difficult, in my opinion.

10 So we're going to be in sub groups -- and I

11 didn't check to see how you did the language -- okay.

12 Yeah, okay, thank you, Jeremiah.

13 Moving to sub groups -- so this is just kind

14 of sensible, I think. "Sub groups may be formed to

15 address specific issues and to develop information,

16 advise, and make recommendations."

17 This gets to the flexibility and

18 functionality of this negotiating committee/working

19 group -- that you can designate or delegate work to

20 other smaller groups.

21 And then as kind of a sensible limit, they

22 are suggesting for your consideration no more than 15
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1 people in a subgroup, other individuals who the

2 working group believe would enhance the functioning of

3 the sub group or representatives of interest may also

4 serve -- let me just finish the paragraph -- "not all

5 organizations or interest caucuses need to be

6 represented or need to participate."

7 Steve?

8 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Steve Rosenstock. Yeah,

9 since the full committee is 17 people, a subgroup of

10 15 sounds a little on the large side in this case.

11 MR. BROOKMAN: Uh-huh.

12 MR. ROSENSTOCK: So maybe we might want to

13 consider lowering that number. Again, I don't know,

14 15 -- other groups have been 30 and that was like half

15 the group. Maybe you might want to consider a number

16 like seven or six, just to kind of --

17 MR. BROOKMAN: Right.

18 MR. ROSENSTOCK: You know, again, because of

19 -- you might -- streamlining I'll say.

20 I know that other interested parties can

21 assist with that effort, but again, just to -- you

22 know, with coordination, it might make it easier if
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1 that number was a little smaller.

2 MR. BROOKMAN: This is no more than 15, to

3 be clear.

4 MR. ADIN: Right. And I think that number

5 is obtained from the Distribution Transformers group,

6 which is substantially larger, I believe, correct?

7 So, you know, we can select a number that's

8 a more appropriate proportion of this group, whether

9 it's six or seven or eight.

10 MR. BROOKMAN: Gary?

11 MR. FERNSTROM: Well, I'd question what

12 difference it makes. You know, I agree with Steve

13 that 15 would be a pretty unwieldy subgroup.

14 On the other hand, you know, if the subgroup

15 is so important that a large number of us want to

16 participate in it, why should we limit it?

17 You know, I would not want to be told that I

18 can't participate in a particular subgroup simply

19 because we've exceeded the number that we agreed to.

20 MR. BROOKMAN: I was thinking, as a

21 practical matter, my experience -- not here at DOE,

22 but at other venues -- is that work groups tend to be
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1 less than 15 -- subgroups, that is.

2 MR. FERNSTROM: I think it's going to be

3 self limiting, and if we set a higher than what seems

4 necessary number, it's not going to do any harm.

5 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. So what do you think?

6 Should we leave it as it is, or should we try and

7 change it?

8 I'm seeing some -- I said leave it, and

9 several people went like this and they nodded their

10 heads up and down. Okay. So I think we're going to

11 leave it.

12 Okay. And the other elements here are -- go

13 ahead.

14 MR. BARBOUR: Bob Barbour. Just one

15 question. If one of us wanted to bring in an outside

16 expert to work on one of these subgroups, does that

17 count toward the 15, or is the 15 just committee

18 members?

19 MR. BROOKMAN: I think -- we should read

20 this carefully. Betsy, maybe you should read this.

21 MR. FERNSTROM: This is Gary at California

22 IOU's. To go to Bob's point, if we're going to set a
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1 number as high as 15, I think it ought to be a total

2 number.

3 MR. BROOKMAN: Yeah.

4 MR. FERNSTROM: I don't know how we

5 currently interpret what it says, but I don't think we

6 ought to have any more than 15 total, including

7 outsiders.

8 MR. BROOKMAN: It sounded like, though, this

9 person who would be an outside expert would not

10 necessarily -- right, wouldn't need to be a member of

11 the group, he or she would be a resource -- a

12 resource. Yeah.

13 MR. POWERS: Question.

14 MR. BROOKMAN: Sure.

15 MR. POWERS: Reading into this thing, does

16 the subgroup vote or is it just gathering data and --

17 MR. ADIN: I think -- I mean, if a subgroup

18 wants to -- I think a subgroup can decide on its own

19 how it wants to agree on a recommendation.

20 The subgroup almost functions like a mini

21 version of our working group, which makes

22 recommendations to ASRAC. So we have our own terms
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1 for -- this is my understanding of how this works --

2 but the subgroup doesn't have to vote. They can if

3 they think that it's appropriate to -- an appropriate

4 way for them to make an agreement on what to

5 recommend. But --

6 MR. FERNSTROM: Gary again. I would think

7 the subgroup would make recommendations to this group

8 --

9 MR. BROOKMAN: Correct.

10 MR. FERNSTROM: -- because this group is the

11 one making recommendations.

12 MR. ADIN: Yeah, that's what I meant. I

13 think that paragraph three says that, right? It's

14 just a recommendation of voting.

15 MR. BROOKMAN: Yeah. And to the point that

16 Bob was raising, as would be the case here with this

17 group, to the extent feasible, practical, this group

18 would be open to comment by participation by non

19 members as contributors, as useful contributors.

20 And then if it ceases to be useful, if it's

21 not practical, we're going to have to find some other

22 way to deal with that. Do you want to put that in?
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1 MR. ADIN: Well, I think -- the only real

2 point I wanted to make with that comment was I don't

3 think we need to specify in here how the subgroups

4 decide on what to recommend.

5 MR. BROOKMAN: Steve?

6 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Steve Rosenstock. Yeah,

7 part three does say that if the subgroup decides to

8 forward something it has to be with the concurrence of

9 all subgroup members.

10 Again, the way I'm reading it is basically

11 it has to be a unanimous -- it would have to be a

12 unanimous recommendation of the subgroup members to

13 bring it to this working group.

14 MR. BROOKMAN: Do you wish to have subgroups

15 live with the consensus definition that we just

16 created for the larger working group?

17 MR. ROSENSTOCK: I'm just saying it's a

18 higher bar for the subgroup than for the working

19 group, so it's really up to -- I'll just say it seems

20 like a higher bar that it should be, and it's raising

21 the question -- I'm fine either way, but it does -- it

22 is a higher bar for the subgroups.
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1 MR. BROOKMAN: It's a high bar, yeah.

2 MR. HUBER: I would recommend that the

3 subgroup operate under the same rules as this group,

4 and is consistent, and I think we've all decided it

5 was fair. It's fine.

6 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay.

7 MR. HUBER: I can't see a problem with it.

8 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Everybody comfortable

9 with that? I'm scanning around the room. Gary?

10 MR. FENSTROM: I agree. I'm comfortable

11 with that, however, we'll have to do some kind of

12 ratio because if we want our rules that were oriented

13 around a group of 17 to apply to the subgroup, which

14 may only have six, you know, we'll have to --

15 MR. BROOKMAN: Let me note that it's

16 relevant that number two, that DOE will provide

17 appropriate staff so that -- you know, and support --

18 so they're going to know what's going on as

19 recommendations in a working group either flounder or

20 come forward, or whatever the status is, but keep

21 going --

22 MR. FERNSTROM: Well, I was going to say
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1 that it's been my experience that the subgroup doesn't

2 so much present recommendations as it brings

3 information.

4 MR. BROOKMAN: Uh-huh.

5 MR. FERNSTROM: And the information is then

6 discussed in the larger group, and the subgroup is not

7 very often making any kind of decisions.

8 MR. BROOKMAN: I'm looking for where -- so

9 in number -- I'm going to number three now -- I

10 presume it's non controversial, number two -- just

11 backing up a step -- that DOE will provide appropriate

12 support for both working groups and sub groups. That's

13 okay, right?

14 MR. ADIN: They're not part of the fifteen.

15 MR. BROOKMAN: No. They'd be staff. Steve?

16 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Steve Rosenstock, EEI. I

17 think it's one thing to -- you know, the support for

18 the senior economist and technical support, clerical,

19 for the working group -- I don't know if it's

20 necessarily for the subgroup if the subgroup is using

21 their own independent expertise to bring information

22 or recommendations.
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1 I don't know if indeed we should have that

2 same level of requirement, that same level of support,

3 for the subgroup as for the working group.

4 MR. BROOKMAN: Yeah, I think including and

5 listing those titles, and so forth, means as needed

6 and as beneficial.

7 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Well, when you say,

8 "include," it means -- that's almost like, "shall," --

9 that's almost like saying, "shall provide."

10 MR. BROOKMAN: Maybe we should say, "which

11 may include."

12 MR. ROSENSTOCK: That would be much better.

13 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. You got that,

14 Jeremiah?

15 So, going then to three -- going to then to

16 number three, yes, subgroup are not authorized to make

17 decisions for the working group as a whole. Decisions

18 to forward a report of the subgroup to the negotiating

19 working group shall be made with the concurrence of

20 all subgroups.

21 Al's last comment was that they should abide

22 by the same rules. Gary follows on to say that it
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1 should be proportionate. You know, if there are only

2 half as many members on a subgroup, then you would

3 make a proportionate fewer negative votes, right? Go

4 ahead.

5 MR. COHEN: One suggestion, which is -- so

6 as Gary points out, just the practice has been -- the

7 issues presented to the subgroup have been technical

8 issues that they are sort of tasked to go back and

9 look at something that is really minutia, that the

10 whole group just needs information about, and so it

11 hasn't really been something to decide, per se.

12 But if the first sentence is that the

13 subgroup is not authorized to make decisions for the

14 whole group, do you even need the second sentence,

15 since the subgroup can't decide anything anyway,

16 really. All they can really do is report back.

17 Even if there's a lack of consensus,

18 whatever that means, within the subgroup, shouldn't

19 they report that back?

20 MR. BROOKMAN: They'd report that back.

21 They'd be effectively -- here's what we found -- the

22 whole of it.
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1 MR. POWERS: Chuck Powers. I agree with

2 everything you said until I look at the last part of

3 the sentence, because what it is saying is if the

4 subgroup is going to go after some technical matter,

5 they all have to agree.

6 So what we don't want, in my opinion, is

7 something coming forward -- of 15 people or whatever -

8 - and eight of them say "yes," and seven of them say,

9 "well," -- you know, I think if we get some data

10 that's going to come forward to the working group,

11 we'd want to know if it was eight people, 15, or four.

12 Whoever signed -- "Yeah, we feel really strongly about

13 this. We studied and we put the data together."

14 My perception of the second sentence -- it

15 was not the first part you read -- was more to go on

16 and say it has to be a unanimous act -- in my opinion.

17 That's what I like about it.

18 MR. BROOKMAN: Yeah. So I think THAT -- my

19 take on it would be that however the subgroup works,

20 it's going to report out the content, it's going to

21 report out how it got to that content, whether every

22 single person agreed, or whether there was division
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1 and effectively a minority report, or whatever -- that

2 that's going to come out -- and there will be staff

3 supporting this, maybe even contributing to the

4 analysis, because that's going to be a back-and-forth

5 -- it's going to happen all the time, so it'll be well

6 vetted and well understood. Steve?

7 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Steve Rosenstock. Yeah, I

8 agree with a lot of what people were saying. It

9 sounds like, you know, a subgroup could just be asked

10 purely to provide the working group with information

11 about "x."

12 We just want information about this issue,

13 or "x" technical information and market information,

14 bring that back to the working group. It's purely

15 information education.

16 Another subgroup might be tasked, say --

17 okay, recommend if we should cover pump "y." So we're

18 asking the subgroup -- we don't know as a working

19 group, but we'd like a subgroup to really dig into it

20 and give us a recommendation.

21 I don't know if there's a way to do it

22 cleanly, if to say the subgroup is going to provide
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1 information and there's no vote needed, if it's just

2 purely -- if it's just information -- but if it's a

3 recommendation, then we need a certain vote,

4 threshold, for any recommendations brought to the

5 working group.

6 MR. BROOKMAN: Well, maybe we could just

7 tell them, as an alternative, in your recommendation

8 you might just specify how the vote turned out.

9 MR. ROSENSTOCK: That's fine. That's fine.

10 Again, I'm just saying there could be separate -- two

11 separate tasks that could be given to a subgroup, or

12 just separate subgroups with separate tasks, so there

13 might be a difference in terms of how we treat it.

14 MR. BROOKMAN: I keep going back to Dan's

15 point, that the subgroups can be very useful, can

16 increase the functionality of the larger working

17 group, but they're going to be passing information --

18 and the working group retains the ability to make

19 decisions, create agreements, all of that.

20 So how do you want to handle this? We need

21 to provide a report of complete findings?

22 MALE: (Inaudible.)
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1 MR. BROOKMAN: Yeah. Yes?

2 MR. BARBOUR: Bob Barbour. The way I look

3 at it is if you have a subgroup that goes out and they

4 do all their data collection, and they bring it

5 together, and if there's ten people and eight of them

6 come back and say, "yeah, we agree with all of this

7 data," but the other two really don't agree, well,

8 when they come back to this committee they're going to

9 express their opinion.

10 MR. BROOKMAN: Yeah.

11 MR. BARBOUR: It's not like they're going to

12 be precluded from being able to contribute.

13 MR. BROOKMAN: Right.

14 MR. FERNSTROM: Okay. So this is Gary,

15 California IOU's. Why don't we add, after working

16 group, "including the position of the parties," or

17 something to that effect?

18 So, what that means is that the subgroup is

19 not only going to report its findings, but tell us how

20 the members felt about it.

21 MR. BROOKMAN: We expect that whatever the

22 report is, it's going to be a rather complete report,
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1 right? Joanna?

2 MS. MAUER: Joanna Mauer. I think I like

3 Dan's suggestion of, you know, just having a first

4 sentence. Is there a reason why we need anything more

5 than just stating that subgroups are not authorized to

6 make decisions for the working group?

7 Do we need to specify anything more than

8 that?

9 MR. POWERS: Chuck Powers, FlowServe --

10 again, if you're going to put some people together to

11 come back with some technical basic stuff, the first

12 sentence we scratched out -- to me, it's the

13 concurrence of everybody or don't come back with

14 anything.

15 I mean, if the concurrence comes back and

16 says the data is not conclusive enough to tell you

17 what we thought, or whatever, but --

18 MR. BROOKMAN: Wouldn't you want them to

19 explain that?

20 MR. POWERS: I'm sorry?

21 MR. BROOKMAN: Wouldn't you want them to say

22 --
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1 MR. POWERS: Well, it does say that in here.

2 It says, you know, that they come back with

3 information and they say that the decision is to

4 forward a report to the subgroup, so they can forward

5 the report, right?

6 But the second part of that goes on to say

7 that "all subgroup members who are present at the

8 meeting," right? There's concurrence.

9 It doesn't say that, you know -- so now all

10 of a sudden we're going to get a report coming back

11 and a new sentence -- and said that, you know, we're

12 also going to get the position of all the parties.

13 We could have abstain, positive, negative

14 votes, no votes -- I mean, that's just going to come

15 back to the working group and we're going to have to

16 decide again and deliberate over it.

17 MR. BROOKMAN: So now I've lost track of

18 what you're proposing we do here.

19 MR. POWERS: The sentence was added, to me -

20 - I think personally speaking, just leave paragraph

21 alone as it was.

22 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay.
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1 MR. POWERS: I think we got too wordy on it.

2 MR. BROOKMAN: Where we left it, as I

3 recall, and as I cast my eyes around the room, it

4 seemed as though Gary's suggestion that the consensus

5 threshold be proportionate -- proportional. Yes,

6 Louis?

7 MR. STARR: I guess I've seen this work in a

8 practical standpoint. A lot of times it's split up

9 for a particular kind of equipment, so what it really

10 came down to was providing that information and

11 understanding what the concerns of the individual

12 parties were, and then that came back to -- they

13 usually have someone report on it and kind of

14 summarize what the people found in those groups.

15 And so, it sort of worked itself out, I

16 think, most of the times, just in -- you didn't really

17 need to have a lot of detailed work into what was

18 happening in the group. It was just, for the most

19 part, an information finding thing, or support on a

20 particular kind of equipment.

21 So I don't think you really need to worry

22 about -- I think the group should work, find some
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1 information, figure out what they agree on and what

2 they don't agree on, and bring it back to the group.

3 MR. BROOKMAN: Are the two sentences that

4 are up there, "not authorized to make decisions," and

5 "subgroups are required to report complete findings,"

6 -- that gets to your point, right?

7 MR. STARR: Yes.

8 MR. FERNSTROM: This is Gary. I think the

9 issue in front of us is how specific do we want to be

10 about the operation of the subgroup.

11 So one recommendation was, we don't have to

12 be very specific at all, but if we're going to be more

13 specific, I think it's important that we say that the

14 subgroup needs to give a report, including how

15 everybody in the group felt about it.

16 MR. BROOKMAN: Yeah.

17 MR. ADIN: Just on the point with respect to

18 how specific this should be on the matter of

19 subgroups, I mean, subgroups are formed by the working

20 group, right? So couldn't the working group specify

21 for any given subgroup what that subgroup is tasked

22 with providing, and say, "well, these are the terms
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1 under which you'll have to operate," and --

2 MR. FERNSTROM: Well, sure, that sort of

3 puts the level of specificity off from now until the

4 point when maybe the subgroup is commissioned.

5 MR. ADIN: Well, and it's not so much

6 putting it off, it's just to recognize that different

7 subgroups may just have different -- fundamentally

8 different objectives and tasks.

9 MR. FERNSTROM: Sure. Sure.

10 MR. ADIN: So, yeah.

11 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. So --

12 MR. FERNSTROM: I don't care. I mean, I

13 think we're making more out of this than needs to be.

14 MR. BROOKMAN: Chuck, are you comfortable

15 with --

16 MR. POWERS: No.

17 MR. BROOKMAN: You're not. Would you like

18 to see --

19 MR. POWERS: But that doesn't matter. We're

20 going to vote and whatever direction it goes in -- I

21 think we're making a mountain out of something here

22 that looks fine.
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1 MR. BROOKMAN: Yeah.

2 MR. POWERS: Because it was done before by

3 the previous group and they didn't have a problem with

4 it. It sounds like that group really worked well, and

5 now we're -- we're, you know --

6 MR. FERNSTROM: So this is Gary again.

7 Chuck, what would you have us do to satisfy your

8 interests, one more time here?

9 MR. POWERS: I was suggesting that if it

10 worked before, just leave it alone.

11 MR. FERNSTROM: But I mean in terms of the

12 text.

13 MR. POWERS: --

14 MR. HUBER: It's reasonably proposed.

15 MR. POWERS: It's reasonably proposed. Just

16 leave it as it was.

17 MR. COHEN: I guess -- we have Lucas'

18 proposal, which we could delete the second sentence

19 and not have --

20 MR. HUBER: And delete the second sentence

21 and not have --

22 MR. COHEN: And have a new sentence that
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1 says, "and the working group will define what it

2 expects back from --

3 MR. POWERS: Chuck Powers. Let me suggest

4 this then maybe, and Lucas, you tell me if it's all

5 right.

6 Maybe say, "Decisions to forward a report to

7 the subgroup shall be made in concurrence with all

8 members," but maybe put a word in there, "decisions

9 forward and any," you know, "any variations or views

10 added," or something. You know? If that's what

11 you're looking for.

12 MR. STARR: Yeah. I think in general, most

13 -- the amount of time that those working groups are

14 formed aren't that long, and they provide the

15 information. There isn't that much to report back,

16 typically.

17 They would usually appoint one person and he

18 would just kind of say, "This is what we talked about,

19 here are what the problems were, and here's what the

20 answer is to some of the technical issues that we

21 had."

22 So I think probably -- I think they'll work
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1 no matter what you write up there.

2 MR. BROOKMAN: Chuck, I'm still trying to

3 understand -- you don't like the third -- the new

4 sentence, the third sentence -- because it doesn't

5 reach the threshold of concurrence?

6 MR. POWERS: I've been involved in -- excuse

7 me, Chuck Powers -- I've been involved in these quite

8 a bit also and I find, you know, sometimes it's just,

9 please validate, you know, that this address or this

10 information is right. You just come back and say,

11 "Yes, we checked it. We made a phone call."

12 Sometimes it's more detailed. Sometimes you

13 have consultants who go out and gather some data. It's

14 not a -- in my opinion, this is not where they're

15 going to go and caucus and make a decision for us --

16 MR. BROOKMAN: Right.

17 MR. POWERS: -- because that defeats the

18 purpose of having this committee in the first place,

19 right? And we're not going to waste our time, right?

20 So, I just wanted to leave it alone as it

21 was, but if this -- if the group feels comfortable

22 with this -- I think we're opening up Pandora's box.
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1 MR. BROOKMAN: Uh-huh. Would you be

2 comfortable just with the first sentence alone,

3 following Lucas' logic that if it's a more detailed

4 task, then the working group will define it, scope it,

5 for the subgroup?

6 MR. POWERS: Sure.

7 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Then let's delete the

8 second sentence, "Subgroups are not authorized to make

9 decisions for the working group as a whole." And do

10 you want to say something about this -- you know, I

11 guess that's sufficient. Okay?

12 MR. POWERS: Okay.

13 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay, good. We're moving on.

14 Then to number four, "subgroup meetings will

15 be held between the full sessions and will be

16 scheduled in the same location and time whenever

17 possible." This is just kind of sensible.

18 That is -- so, for example, on day two, if

19 we end at 3:00, or 2:00, or something like that, it

20 could be that we'll try and schedule a subgroup

21 meeting to follow on for two hours, or, you know,

22 something like that.
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1 Or maybe they'll meet the day before in

2 Washington prior to the two days that this group is

3 scheduled to meet. It's just kind of a normal

4 business kind of sensible arrangement. Steve?

5 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Steve Rosenstock. Yeah, I

6 agree if it's on to it, I mean, that makes sense, but

7 I think that they should -- you know, they're probably

8 meeting too much. If they're going to do Webinars,

9 I'm okay with that, too.

10 MR. BROOKMAN: Great.

11 MR. ROSENSTOCK: That this one has to be in

12 the same -- it implies that it has to be only in,

13 let's say Washington, D.C., in this room.

14 It's the implication. It's like, no, this

15 should be a lot more flexible. Let them meet whenever

16 they want, wherever they want.

17 MR. BROOKMAN: This language does seem a tad

18 --

19 MR. ROSENSTOCK: It seems like it's

20 restrictive.

21 MR. BROOKMAN: -- prescriptive here, right?

22 Or something like that, because a lot of times working
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1 groups can operate via teleconference, for example.

2 Right, Louis?

3 MR. STARR: I think DOE can't relocate

4 anywhere besides Washington, D.C. is why they do that.

5 MR. COHEN: Can I make just one point of

6 clarification? It's interesting that you're reading

7 the language that way. That was not the original

8 intent.

9 The original intent was that so people could

10 plan -- to know that Tuesdays at 2:00, that's when the

11 working group would meet, just so they could --

12 MR. BROOKMAN: The subgroup?

13 MR. COHEN: I'm sorry, the subgroup -- so

14 they would just have just a regularized time, instead

15 of having sort of ad hoc way of trying to figure out

16 when people could get together.

17 MR. BROOKMAN: So we should interpret this

18 word, "meetings," broadly. That doesn't necessarily

19 mean face-to-face here in Washington.

20 MR. COHEN: Right. That was what was

21 originally intended. Now maybe it doesn't read that

22 way, but --
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1 MR. FERNSTROM: This is Gary. That kind of

2 goes to the second sentence, "All working group

3 members will be notified," so that's the intent, is

4 that we all know when these subgroup meetings are

5 going on.

6 MR. BROOKMAN: Well, yeah. In the same

7 location and time, whenever possible, as well. So,

8 maybe we need to give it a little thought to how that

9 could be restructured, but I think -- so what I'm

10 hearing here is that these subgroup meetings are

11 supposed to be predictable, they're supposed to be

12 announced, all members are supposed to know about it;

13 the subgroups should have the capacity to effect its

14 business in whatever way it wants to, whether it's a

15 webinar or whether it's a teleconference -- however

16 they do it.

17 And if it's not intuitive, or it's easily

18 defined, then when the working group creates the

19 subgroup, then there will be more instructions. I

20 think that's the bulk of it, right? Louis?

21 MR. STARR: You know, if you're providing

22 resources to that subgroup, too -- in other words,
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1 whatever those items were -- just if those resources

2 can be in different locations, that's the other item.

3 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Louis, in your

4 experience -- subgroups that are working in other

5 places, was it done via teleconference and other

6 methods?

7 MR. STARR: Yeah, they usually had webinars,

8 and I guess they did have a few that were at

9 headquarters and things, but generally they were

10 usually done at -- the subgroups usually happen

11 sometimes at the same time as the meeting of the

12 general group and occasionally did have some groups

13 that met outside of that.

14 But most of the subgroups happen at the same

15 time as the main group is meeting, and then we'd split

16 up on certain topics.

17 MR. BROOKMAN: So I'm just going to put a

18 note next to four that we need -- I don't know whether

19 Jeremiah's got it locked over there -- we need some

20 new language here, but I think we understand the

21 intent. Is that fair? Because we're moving on at

22 this point.
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1 Discontinue if unproductive -- this makes

2 total sense -- the working group may discontinue

3 negotiations at any time if they do not appear

4 productive. How would that be done? Would that be

5 our threshold of consensus to arrive at a decision --

6 so any lack of productivity? Go ahead, Chuck.

7 MR. POWERS: Question. Chuck Powers. Lucas

8 or DOE, in your experience, the intent is to come an

9 agreement, right? As everybody wants to be successful

10 as a group and do things better for everybody,

11 etcetera, right?

12 So, my question here is, can we -- is the

13 intention here in this paragraph to say that they do

14 not appear productive so we stop it and we start the

15 next day? Or we stop it altogether? Or we take lunch

16 break like we did earlier because we couldn't come to

17 agreement, and we came back and we solved it? Or is

18 it over?

19 MR. BROOKMAN: In this case, they're talking

20 about ending the enterprise.

21 MR. POWERS: Okay.

22 MR. BROOKMAN: If you're unproductive before
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1 lunch, by the time you get back here for lunch we'll

2 have a new plan to make you productive after lunch.

3 I'm not fooling.

4 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Steve Rosenstock. You

5 guys, do you want to put in the word "permanently"

6 somewhere? "Discontinue negotiations permanently at

7 any time if they don't appear productive." The intent

8 --

9 MR. BROOKMAN: Don't you think it's

10 descriptive enough?

11 MALE: Yeah.

12 MR. BROOKMAN: I think it's descriptive

13 enough and it -- and just -- I want to be clear -- we

14 have now established -- we haven't made a final

15 agreement on it, but we've established a threshold for

16 consensus of this group, and that would apply here for

17 a motion to discontinue based on lack of productivity.

18 Okay? Okay. So we're moving on. Deadline

19 for negotiations -- now -- so we've started today --

20 as a general matter, my experience is, and chime in,

21 that negotiations like this -- five, six months --

22 five or six negotiation sessions -- maybe you'll
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1 schedule another meeting after that in the event that

2 that's necessary.

3 You don't want these things to go on for two

4 years at a time. You know, it's -- so -- but I'm open

5 to other's thoughts on it. That's just sort of the

6 convention. Lucas?

7 MR. ADIN: I might -- just to put out some

8 information for consideration, and the matter of

9 timeline generally -- I mean, we heard John say our

10 objective -- do we decide anyway to try and publish a

11 proposed rule by the end of 2014?

12 And so, if you're working backwards from

13 that, you say, well, publication of a NOPR -- that

14 also includes review time by OMB, which we have to

15 assume will be somewhere in the range of 90 days, so

16 you work backwards from there. I'm sorry?

17 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Ninety-eight days to how

18 high?

19 MR. ADIN: Ninety, 9-0. That's right. So

20 let's go with that as a baseline assumption,

21 understanding that we have limited control over that

22 part. But working backwards, that's basically the end
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1 of September, right? So that's a place to start,

2 anyway.

3 MR. COHEN: One more point on that is, of

4 course, we have to actually draft something, too.

5 MR. BROOKMAN: Exactly. And that -- it's a

6 significant -

7 UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: A weak -

8 MR. BROOKMAN: -- a drafting enterprise,

9 right? So it's got to be --

10 MR. ADIN: A point on that -- 'Dan's

11 absolutely right that it does take time, but consider

12 also that the people who are going to write the notice

13 are in this room.

14 So they''ll be following along, we know

15 what''s going on, we know what the terms produced by

16 this group will say, so we''ll have a jumpstart on it,

17 but we''ll need time to get it through our own

18 internal review process and that kind of thing, to

19 make a notice that's ready to send to -

20 MR. BROOKMAN: Yeah. And just to land on

21 this point one more time, I think Lucas said earlier,

22 and perhaps John Cymbalsky, when he was here also said
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1 it, this group we anticipate will produce what''s

2 called the ""term sheet."" It will be not the actual

3 language, which is rather a complicated bit of

4 rendering.

5 But it would be, you know, what this group

6 agrees to, provided you get to it surrounding the

7 standards and the other elements that contribute to

8 that standard. Okay, Steve? Or Meg, please. Please.

9 MS. WALTNER: Am I right that we''re

10 negotiating two dates here? One is sort of the final

11 termination date, unless we extend, and one is sort of

12 our goal for getting things done?

13 MR. COHEN: Yeah. So in addition to - this

14 gets back to -- Dan Cohen, DOE -- in addition to the

15 review time and drafting time, there's also the ASRAC

16 time that we have to build in here as well.

17 MR. BROOKMAN: Good point.

18 MR. COHEN: Because the term sheet has to go

19 through them before it comes to the department so it's

20 got to -- you know, we can schedule an ASRAC meeting

21 if we know far enough in advance when that will be.

22 But that means that there has to be some
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1 number of months, basically, for actual -- you know,

2 the work of putting pen to paper and getting it all --

3 MR. BROOKMAN: So let me just clarify that.

4 So then this would be the first meeting in December.

5 If we were to observe the form, then we would finish,

6 say, in May -- just speculating -- and if we had the

7 necessity to schedule an emergency meeting after that,

8 say June, then we'd be kind of in the ballpark, right?

9 That would kind of observe the backing out date from

10 the end of 2014.

11 So, I'm just floating that as a potential --

12 you know, one meeting per month -- one two day meeting

13 per month beginning in January, the last meeting date

14 perhaps in May, and hopefully get it done by then.

15 If it's just not possible, then we breech

16 into vacation schedule, you all -- just kidding --

17 MALE: (Inaudible.)

18 MR. BROOKMAN: That doesn't matter here. No

19 -- and so I just float that as an idea. Meg, did you

20 wish to comment here? I thought Steve, you did.

21 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Yeah, and again, this might

22 be kind of looking ahead just because of the
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1 uniqueness of this negotiation.

2 Are we -- and again, John Cymbalsky talked

3 about it earlier -- about the test procedure -- are we

4 -- well, you know, we're going to talk about the

5 efficiency standards, but do we need to talk about the

6 test procedure, because you have to have both for a

7 new standard?

8 So, I'm not -- in way we're doing both

9 because you have to have both for a new efficiency

10 standard, right?

11 MR. BROOKMAN: Good question. Lucas?

12 MR. ADIN: So the short answer to that is

13 yes. That is, by necessity, part of this. So we're

14 not putting a specific date on that part of it. I

15 mean, the end goal is the standards of which the test

16 procedure is a requisite part of, you know, getting to

17 that point. So that's really getting more -- probably

18 into the scope section of our discussion today.

19 MR. BROOKMAN: And we're going to take that

20 up in much greater detail when we finish with the

21 ground rules.

22 MR. ADIN: Yeah. But I think at some point,
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1 probably in the scope discussion, we should have at

2 least in mind a timeline of what's going to happen

3 between today and whatever termination date we settle

4 on here, and the test procedure is a milestone there.

5 MR. ROSENSTOCK: I appreciate that. So I'm

6 seeing that there's already been language put in there

7 about May -- in terms of termination -- and then you

8 have other date for the ASRAC.

9 I think it would be better if we decide

10 about the ASRAC and then determine then the

11 termination, because if the ASRAC says, "well, we

12 don't agree with one part of this, can you change it

13 real quick?" So it might be that the second date

14 should be at least -- I'll say a month before the

15 first date.

16 MR. BROOKMAN: I see. Hey, Tom Eckman, let

17 me ask you, has ASRAC -- have they kind of been -- had

18 the capacity to meet kind of on demand to --

19 MALE: (Inaudible.)

20 MR. BROOKMAN: Find a microphone, Jeremiah.

21 Here, come up here with me.

22 MR. FREEMAN: I think for the commercial
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1 certification one, we gave them a couple months

2 notice, maybe even less than that, and they met it

3 just fine.

4 MR. BROOKMAN: So they would have the

5 capacity, given notice as record of the capacity, to

6 consider any proposal that came forward from this

7 working group.

8 In other words, they wouldn't bind up this

9 working group's success?

10 MR. ECKMAN: No, they'd need time to

11 deliberate and review it.

12 MR. BROOKMAN: Yeah.

13 MR. ECKMAN: So depending on what comes out

14 on the term sheet.

15 MR. BROOKMAN: So maybe we should say -- if

16 I were following this format here, "negotiations

17 should terminate by June, and term sheets to ASRAC by

18 May." That's your logic. Yes, Joanna?

19 MS. MAUER: I guess my first question is,

20 does DOE plan to publish preliminary analysis before

21 publishing an NOPR, and if so, do you have a sense of

22 a timeline for that?
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1 MR. BROOKMAN: Would you say it again? I'm

2 sorry.

3 MS. MAUER: Sure. So I'm wondering whether

4 DOE is planning to publish a preliminary technical

5 support document as they normally would in a

6 rulemaking -- okay, I'm seeing that the answer is no.

7 MR. COHEN: The whole point of the

8 negotiating rulemaking process is to do all of that in

9 this room. So all of the data, the discussion, that

10 would normally take place around the preliminary

11 analysis we're going to have right here.

12 MR. ADIN: And to add to that, we're

13 effectively rolling the test procedure.

14 MR. BROOKMAN: So the discussion would be

15 ongoing with new data and representative data coming

16 from parties presented here.

17 MS. MAUER: So I think -- as I said before,

18 I think, especially for the efficiency advocates, it

19 would be really helpful to us to have, for example,

20 LCC and NIA results. You know, whether that's

21 analysis or something posted on the website -- you

22 know, I'm not sure if it makes much difference, but I
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1 mean is that something that you're looking at early

2 next year to have?

3 Because if not, I guess I'd be a little

4 concerned about trying to --

5 MR. ADIN: That's something we can certainly

6 discuss in more detail. I think after we -- well,

7 you're saying that it would be helpful for you to know

8 that to decide on whether this is appropriate?

9 MR. BROOKMAN: Yes.

10 MR. ECKMAN: Well, the prior negotiations,

11 both on transformers -- and then we had a less formal

12 one with AHAM on appliances. We had the technical

13 staff available to us to present and do runs, frankly,

14 based on -- for life cycle cost analysis -- so we'd

15 look at the economics in where things landed, and look

16 at the national impacts, while we were trying to write

17 an end game.

18 MR. BROOKMAN: Uh-huh.

19 MR. ECKMAN: So without those pretty much

20 we're at a disadvantage in terms of talking about

21 what's on the table. So knowing whether that's a

22 feasible timeframe for that analysis is pretty
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1 important.

2 MR. BROOKMAN: So I'd just like to go back

3 and make a proposal that maybe we should try and --

4 however we work the language here -- and the transfer

5 of the information to ASRAC -- that this group be done

6 by May, the working group. Yes? Joanna?

7 MS. MAUER: It just seems that -- I think

8 that, yeah, it would be great if we could be done by

9 May, but I think to be done by May we need to have

10 some preliminary analysis well in advance of May --

11 MR. BROOKMAN: Maybe we could put a question

12 mark next to this -- "Provisionally done by May," and

13 then we wait until we talk more about scope and

14 scheduling.

15 MR. COHEN: Also, if I can just point out,

16 Joanna, the way this has worked on the other

17 negotiations -- and it was less an issue in the AHRI -

18 - the certification process than it was in the

19 transformer process -- but the way it worked there was

20 -- the folks you see here, although they are patriots

21 from elsewhere and LBL and NAVIGANT, made

22 presentations at each of the meetings. They showed
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1 the data that they had been working on, and then

2 everybody kind of talked around that data.

3 And then went back, sometimes overnight, and

4 reran that data and came back and represented the next

5 day, so that the conversation progressed.

6 MS. MAUER: Yeah, and that -- I think that

7 would be very constructive. I guess I just still

8 don't have a great sense for -- you know, are we at a

9 point where we can start doing that?

10 MR. BROOKMAN: And, Dan, that was helpful,

11 that description, because I wasn't aware of that, the

12 way you described it. Lucas, keep going. Okay,

13 Steve.

14 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Well, Meg was first.

15 MR. BROOKMAN: Meg.

16 MS. WALTNER: Well, I was just going to

17 suggest maybe pushing back the first date of when

18 negotiations will terminate to give us more

19 flexibility on this analysis. So maybe the goal is

20 still May, and it sounds like maybe the analysis will

21 be ready for us to have negotiations on that

22 timeframe.
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1 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay.

2 MS. WALTNER: But give ourselves a little

3 more leeway on when things officially end.

4 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Okay, Steve?

5 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Steve Rosenstock. Yeah, I

6 would just, you know -- the advantage we have with the

7 transformer rulemaking is that we already had a

8 baseline standard that had been established. We

9 already had the test procedure that was locked in, so

10 we could suggest numbers, whatever we wanted, in terms

11 of efficiency, in terms of what we thought might be

12 the cost effectiveness or any --

13 MR. BROOKMAN: Right.

14 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Here we're in a different

15 spot where we're not sure what the test procedure is.

16 We haven't established a baseline, we haven't

17 established scopes, we don't know which baseline we're

18 talking about for which types of pumps.

19 So there's a -- unfortunately, right now

20 they're just taking an "x" scenario of, we know what

21 we'd like, but we haven't established a starting point

22 yet.
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1 MR. BROOKMAN: Yes.

2 MR. ROSENSTOCK: That points us -- with the

3 other negotiations, we had the baseline, the starting

4 point, so we could suggest ideas in terms of what we

5 wanted out of the analysis.

6 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Mark?

7 MR. HANDZEL: Mark Handzel. I guess I'd

8 just ask -- if you told us what dates you would like

9 to issue the NOPR -- I suppose, as we start at the

10 meetings it's just not feasible.

11 You know, I mean, does this lock us into

12 something or can we come back and say, "Hey, we're

13 going to have to take more time," and push back DOE's

14 expectations?

15 MR. COHEN: Unless DOE has reconciled --

16 then it's part of the network. I'm sorry, I'll put

17 the mike back on.

18 So the flip side of that is, you know, John

19 has certain benchmarks and what not that he has to

20 meet, that he's measured by, so it's in his work plan

21 for certain times and dates.

22 MR. HANDZEL: So does that mean that he
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1 could just say, "terminate," and we'll go our own way?

2 MR. COHEN: That would be less likely. He

3 would have to go higher to explain why it was going to

4 take more time.

5 MR. HANDZEL: Okay.

6 MR. COHEN: And get approval for that.

7 MR. BROOKMAN: Charlie?

8 MR. CAPPELLINO: Charlie Cappelino with ITT.

9 I haven't heard anything relative to experience in

10 terms of timing of other efforts like this.

11 So transformers, for example -- I mean, were

12 they able to accomplish what they needed to

13 accomplish, even though it's a lot less in the end --

14 what we're talking about here, in a period of five

15 months, which from my view seems very aggressive.

16 I mean, I always get nervous when -- I'm in

17 the business of developing things and managing

18 projects and programs on deadlines, and I always get

19 nervous when somebody sets the deadline and says,

20 "Okay, back up from there and say when you're going to

21 have things done."

22 I understand the logic behind it and
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1 appreciate the goal, but I always like to say, okay,

2 what else -- the way to look at is the way you

3 accomplish -- you fill out the schedule and say, "This

4 is what I need to accomplish."

5 I think that was one of the points that

6 Joanna was making. I mean, it's really hard for us at

7 this point to make that judgment, so I kind of go back

8 to, is there a benchmark that we can reference to see

9 if we're even in the ballpark? Because I frankly

10 don't have a sense of if five months is reasonable or

11 if that's superhuman effort.

12 MR. BROOKMAN: Well, I'll just offer one

13 benchmark, and it's not DOE based, but there have been

14 dozens and dozens of negotiated rulemakings done, some

15 large, some small, and they're very typically in this

16 five to six month window.

17 And there's something about a negotiation

18 that develops both a momentum and a necessity to bring

19 it to closure that's beneficial.

20 MR. CAPPELLINO: Uh-huh. I understand.

21 MR. BROOKMAN: So, you know --

22 MR. CAPPELLINO: For quality factor, too.
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1 You know, we want to have quality --

2 MR. BROOKMAN: Yeah. And it's kind of like,

3 you know, a project that just goes on and on and on,

4 it starts to lose its -- you know about that.

5 MR. CAPPELLINO: I'm not suggesting that.

6 I'm suggesting two ways to set a schedule. One is,

7 I've got to be done by such and such a date --

8 MR. BROOKMAN: Yep.

9 MR. CAPPELLINO: The other alternative is,

10 here's what I need to do and collective wisdom says

11 this is how long we think it's going to take to get it

12 done.

13 And I'm just asking, is the collective

14 wisdom in the group here, based on what we know of

15 what the scope is, to say whether this is reasonable

16 or not?

17 MR. BROOKMAN: Yeah. Gary?

18 MR. FERNSTROM: Gary Fernstrom from

19 California IOU. So, having worked on the transformer

20 thing, and listening to what Steve Rosenstock just

21 said, I am really nervous about May.

22 We've been talking to the Hydraulics
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1 Institute for two years now. I'm all for getting a

2 quick resolution of this, but gee whiz, you know, if

3 we have to flesh out the test procedure -- and we'll

4 work with DOE's consultants during the process to sort

5 of continuously see the results of their analysis as

6 it takes place, May is pretty darn ambitious.

7 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. So what would you

8 suggest, Gary?

9 MR. FERNSTROM: July. But that doesn't

10 obviously give DOE the time it needs. But I think

11 we're -- I think we've got to recognize from the start

12 that we're probably not going to be able to do a very

13 good job, a quality piece of work, if we have to rush

14 through it.

15 MR. BROOKMAN: There are other alternatives

16 here, right? I mean, that is, we could have more

17 subgroups, we could on occasion meet -- I hate to say

18 it -- three consecutive days -- two and a half days --

19 you know, I mean, just -- but the working group can

20 figure out how they want to handle it.

21 Gary, it looks like you've got something

22 else to say?
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1 MR. FERNSTROM: We could work harder and

2 faster, but given the fact that many of us have other

3 things to do, I don't think we can afford to commit

4 that much attention to this one effort in our working

5 lives.

6 MR. BROOKMAN: Do you all want to establish

7 -- try to establish some dates here right now? Or do

8 you want to let this float and take it up -- maybe

9 take it up later in the day or take it up tomorrow

10 after the scoping discussion proceeds a little bit?

11 Louis?

12 MR. STARR: Louis Starr. You know, one of

13 the things I was kind of thinking about -- sort of

14 what the critical path here is -- I'm not wondering --

15 I'm kind of wondering if it's maybe some of the DOE's

16 consultants' inability to provide information.

17 And then another item is, is that since a

18 lot of these people are representing multiple people

19 in industries, that they're actually having to go back

20 and talk to some of their members that they're

21 representing in terms of it.

22 So there's -- and that takes a little bit of
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1 time to do. At least with previous ones, it took them

2 time to talk to their members of the organizations

3 that they're representing.

4 So it almost might make sense to try to

5 build forward from the pieces that we know and kind of

6 the timeframe - I'd almost suggest a working group --

7 but maybe --

8 MR. BROOKMAN: If not, a subgroup.

9 MR. STARR: If not a subgroup -- a least

10 three or four items that we could say that these are

11 definite things that have to happen. And even if it's

12 not 45 items, we could probably break it down to at

13 least more than one intermediate step, at least three

14 or four.

15 MR. BROOKMAN: So that's a candidate for our

16 first subgroup, perhaps. Yes?

17 MR. ADIN: This is actually returning to

18 something Steve mentioned earlier, and I think Gary

19 alluded to also, but the -- in almost every rulemaking

20 we do, at least as far as all of the analysis is

21 concerned, the test procedure in many ways ends up

22 being the critical element because we need to know how
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1 the energy efficiency of this thing is going to be

2 measured to do all of the downstream analysis.

3 So, we might have an idea -- a good enough

4 idea to do something preliminary that at least we

5 could use for discussion purposes, but we can't make

6 decisions on something that has, you know, economic

7 justification purposes.

8 So, maybe that's really the element that we

9 need to talk about first, as far as the timing piece,

10 that gets us to all of the rest of this, and I don't

11 know in what --

12 MR. STARR: Possibly we can talk about that

13 today, but --

14 MR. BROOKMAN: I think that all the

15 foregoing discussion leads me to think we can't decide

16 this yet, but I'm interpreting that May seems

17 ambitious given the fact that the test procedure is so

18 -- at this point, large and undeveloped --

19 underdeveloped -- and that maybe we should just defer

20 on this discussion and move on, and then return to it

21 later. Steve?

22 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Steve Rosenstock. Yeah. I
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1 think that we can agree that the second sentence --

2 the date of the second sentence, should at least be

3 one or two months before the termination date.

4 I think we all agree to that, you know, that

5 -- you know, at least one or two months, according to

6 the group.

7 MR. BROOKMAN: And whether it was you,

8 Steve, or someone -- I think Meg was talking about the

9 goal to finish, and that being prior to the

10 termination date, that a new concept will be inserted

11 --

12 MR. WALTNER: No, I was just saying the

13 second date -- I read it more like a goal -- every

14 reasonable effort should be made to conclude by that

15 date.

16 MR. BROOKMAN: I gotcha.

17 MS. WALTNER: But you can go until the

18 second date. I mean, I would suggest the second date

19 be something like September, but perhaps we --

20 MR. BROOKMAN: Go ahead.

21 MR. ADIN: This is actually more of a

22 question, and I suppose it's more for Tom or anyone
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1 who's served on the ASRAC and been through this

2 process, but once the working group has submitted a

3 term sheet, if there are elements that the ASRAC still

4 has issues, where there are things that they need the

5 working group to look at more closely, is that where

6 they can send it back to the working group and have

7 further deliberation? Is that how the process would

8 work?

9 MR. ECKMAN: I think that what we have

10 agreed to is that it's sort of an up or down, and we

11 send it back to the work group -- if it's not

12 acceptable, we send it back to the work group and say,

13 "work on it," without trying to have that group

14 renegotiate it, because this is the expertise in here

15 to negotiate the deal, not the ASRAC.

16 But we look at it for balance and things

17 like that, but not for the details. And so the

18 general inclination is to let the work group do its

19 work and bring forward a proposal that the full

20 committee can vote up or down on, or send back for

21 rework, and pretty much leave it at that and not try

22 to renegotiate stuff.
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1 MR. COHEN: This is Dan Cohen. I think for

2 that very purpose, which is why Steve and Meg are

3 right -- but the first date is usually further out

4 than the date of the second.

5 MR. BROOKMAN: Yeah. Okay. So let's just

6 put a hold on this for the moment and see as we

7 discuss -- continue to discuss this in the afternoon

8 and tomorrow -- if we gain any additional insight.

9 Number four is agreement. This speaks to

10 what we've just globally referred to as the term sheet

11 and supporting analysis. It defines what the working

12 group is hoping to produce.

13 For purposes of this agreement, the term

14 "standard" or "rule" should be deemed to include any

15 determination that a revision of this standard is

16 unnecessary for some or all covered products.

17 MR. COHEN: Can I just stop you right there?

18 MR. BROOKMAN: Please.

19 MR. COHEN: That sentence is very specific

20 to the transformer -- negotiated rulemaking -- and not

21 relevant.

22 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay.
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1 MR. COHEN: Not relevant. In that

2 particular case there was a court order that was

3 involved, and that was required under the court order,

4 so that's just not a factor.

5 MR. BROOKMAN: Well, do you want to

6 interpret the rest of this paragraph for us? Yes,

7 Steve?

8 MR. ROSENSTOCK: That's also for a part that

9 already has existing standards, that, you know,

10 transformers were basically -- it was basically --

11 well, with all the dry type as well, there's like a

12 hundred different efficiency levels.

13 If you increase the efficiency level for 97,

14 you kept three the same because of the analysis. That

15 could happen under rulemaking, so that's why that

16 sentence was in there.

17 There might be certain products where it

18 just did not make sense to increase the efficiency

19 standard so you didn't have to necessarily.

20 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. So after this

21 sentence, which we will delete -- the second sentence

22 which begins, "For the purposes of this agreement," --
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1 the following sentence I think is what's especially

2 relevant for this group.

3 Right in the middle of that paragraph, where

4 it begins, "It is anticipated that the agreement will

5 include a written statement that includes (a) a term

6 sheet outlining the significant terms of the proposed

7 rule, and (b) supporting analysis as needed to explain

8 and justify the agreed terms from a legal, economic,

9 and engineering perspective."

10 And then, as we described, "DOE staff" --

11 the following sentence -- "will be responsible for

12 translating the term sheet and analysis and fulfilling

13 its obligations," in those listed items there.

14 Okay? So comments on this? I think this is

15 consistent with what we've outlined so far. No

16 comments on this? We're moving on.

17 Statement as basis for NOPR -- as described

18 also, "DOE agrees to use the written statement and any

19 recommended standards as the basis for the NOPR to the

20 maximum extent possible, consistent with legal

21 obligations." No surprise there.

22 Moving on. No negative comments, we also
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1 reference this -- "Each party agrees not to file

2 negative comments or speak negatively on the proposed

3 standard or its preamble to the extent they have the

4 same substance in effect as the term sheet. You are

5 here to represent," -- "You are a nominee representing

6 an interest or a set of interests. Your obligation is

7 to represent those interests. If you, as a

8 negotiator, are part of the consensus surrounding a

9 negotiated rule standard, then you are representing

10 those interests and your interests will not speak

11 negatively surrounding the content of that consensus

12 agreement."

13 Steve Rosenstock? Meg?

14 MS. WALTNER: I was just going to say, I'm

15 not sure that what you just said is necessarily clear

16 in that language, that each party there means you and

17 your organization versus just each individual party

18 here. I'm not the lawyer, so --

19 MR. BROOKMAN: That's a good point.

20 MR. COHEN: It was meant to be -- because

21 you are here as a representative of an interest, it

22 was meant to be the representative.
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1 MS. WALTNER: I would agree that that's what

2 it should be, but I don't think that's what it says.

3 MR. BROOKMAN: Steve?

4 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Steve Rosenstock. Again,

5 in terms of my organization, yes, we would not file

6 any negative comments, but we have members of our

7 organization -- they're free -- again, for all the

8 trade associations around the table -- we hope it

9 won't happen, but if a member wants to file a comment,

10 they are allowed to do that. I can't control what the

11 members are going to file.

12 MR. BROOKMAN: So we would hope that your

13 organization, and your representative, would try and

14 influence your members to the extent you can.

15 MR. ROSENSTOCK: I'll say yes, but I just

16 want there to be sure that we cannot be held liable if

17 they decide to file a negative comment. That we

18 should not be -- I don't know if there should be

19 language in there -- and again, it really has to do

20 with -- I'll say organizational type members -- is

21 that we can -- we're responsible for what our

22 organization files, but not for what our members file.
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1 MR. COHEN: Right. And again, recall the

2 idea that you are representing your organization,

3 which is representing your industry.

4 So theoretically -- and obviously you can't

5 control everybody -- but you've vetted whatever

6 positions you are taking in here with your membership,

7 so --

8 MR. ROSENSTOCK: But -- again, Steve

9 Rosenstock -- yeah, we do that wherever we can, but

10 there have been other federal rulemakings where we

11 have achieved -- what we try to get is consensus, but

12 members are free. If they disagree with it, they file

13 their own comments and they've said that they -- you

14 know, they don't agree with EEI because of this -- and

15 they have every right to file that.

16 MR. BROOKMAN: Great. Let me see Charlie

17 first, then to Bob.

18 MR. CAPPILLINO: Charlie Cappelino, ITT. I

19 thought maybe, Doug, the words that you used would be

20 more appropriate, that we work towards promoting the

21 acceptance and just approach it that way.

22 I mean, this basically says, you know, not
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1 to, but turn it around the other way, that we promote

2 the proposed standard and --

3 MR. BROOKMAN: I should note that those are

4 just my words. We should probably check with legal

5 counsel.

6 MR. CAPPELINO: Well, this is a negotiated

7 point, right?

8 MR. BROOKMAN: Yeah. Okay. But that's the

9 intent. It has been the intent of negotiated

10 rulemaking that, you know, that's part of the quid pro

11 quo. Bob?

12 MR. BARBOUR: Bob Barbour. I thought I had

13 seen some of the other standards that had been

14 established, that if you had voted negative on the

15 proposal, you would still retain your right to come

16 back with comment if you desired to.

17 I think that's something that we should be

18 allowed to do.

19 MR. BROOKMAN: Do you want to -- Dan?

20 MR. COHEN: Yeah. Dan Cohen, DOE. So that

21 was -- I believe that was the way it was written in

22 the certification -- HVAC certification ground rules.
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1 I forget the exact words of that. We probably can

2 pull that out. We'll see if we can pull that out.

3 MR. BROOKMAN: And while he's doing that,

4 Gary?

5 MR. FERNSTROM: If that's the one I was

6 involved -- no, that was the intent, is that you

7 signed on -- there was things in that that thing that

8 we worked on that I was not particularly grand on, but

9 we did not file comments.

10 And the idea is that it encourages people to

11 work on those problems in the meeting, rather than --

12 I don't know -- if you've even been on a construction

13 project, it's what they don't tell you that's the

14 problem, it's not what they do tell you.

15 MR. BROOKMAN: Yeah. But Louis, you as a

16 negotiator, you sign on to the consensus, so you did

17 not comment negatively, even on -- you got enough out

18 of the deal that was positive, that you didn't comment

19 negatively on anything. The negative stuff you let

20 slide.

21 MR. STARR: Right.

22 MR. BROOKMAN: Right. That's the intention
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1 of all of this. That's the way this is supposed to

2 work, Gary.

3 MR. FERNSTROM: So what this says seems

4 absolutely reasonable to me. If we reach some

5 consensus here and I sign onto it, I don't expect that

6 I or the organizations I represent would comment

7 differently than in support of the consensus that we

8 agreed to.

9 With the exception that Steve mentioned and

10 that is, industry organizations can't do that because

11 they have to decide based on you know a survey or a

12 census of their members, what the industry

13 organization is going to do, and it may not reflect

14 the position of every member of that organization.

15 MR. BROOKMAN: Um-hmm.

16 MR. FERNSTROM: So it has to be recognized

17 that this doesn't carry onto the members of

18 organizations.

19 MR. BROOKMAN: Doug?

20 MR. POTTS: I guess I could use some

21 clarification on what does it mean by, "filing

22 negative comments or speaking negatively"? Formally?
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1 Informally? A scenario that I could picture might be

2 -- suppose one of us is presenting at a

3 conference on some topic relevant to your industry,

4 and somebody raises a question about the rulemaking:

5 "I understand you're on the Rulemaking

6 Working Group. Were you happy with how things ended

7 up, or did you agree with it?"

8 Do you have the freedom to say, "Well I

9 didn't agree with everything that was the final

10 product"? You know is there a gag order on things

11 like that or what's the intent?

12 MR. COHEN: Dan Cohen, DOE. So the idea was

13 that this is thinking more of formalized statements:

14 Press statements, comments coming back into the

15 proposed rule, things of that nature; not you know

16 remarks you may make individually at some place.

17 And again, because it's an organizational

18 thing because you're representing a group of entities

19 it's not you, in particular, right? It's not a gag

20 order on --

21 MR. BROOKMAN: And just as a reference

22 point, going from (c) "No Negative Comments" to (d)
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1 "Response to Public Comments" that speaks to sort of

2 the formality of your obligation to not be a formal

3 objector to something you signed on to a consensus

4 about.

5 Who did I see? I guess I saw Tom.

6 MR. ECKMAN: Yeah. And this is really for

7 Dan, but this has sort of a statutory construction

8 right? A negative comment on a reg neg has -- sets

9 off a certain chain reaction inside the Legal

10 Department here.

11 MR. BROOKMAN: Uh-huh.

12 MR. ECKMAN: Right?

13 MR. BROOKMAN: Steve?

14 MR. COHEN: Yeah. It could create some

15 problems.

16 MR. ECKMAN: So it has real implications if

17 it's deemed a negative comment on the Consensus

18 Agreement.

19 MR. BROOKMAN: Steve?

20 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Steve Rosenstock. Yeah.

21 And again, I think for clarification you know, we

22 could be doing, I'll just say, hundreds of values,
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1 efficiency values, depending on our scope. You know

2 depending on how we do it.

3 And for some reason, you know people do a

4 zillion numbers. A number slips and the wrong number

5 is published. If someone says wait a minute this

6 number should be 85 instead of 99, or something like

7 that is that considered a negative comment? Because

8 it would be changing what's in the NOPR.

9 MR. BROOKMAN: Yeah, or a technical

10 correction, whatever.

11 MR. ROSENSTOCK: It is a technical

12 correction.

13 MR. BROOKMAN: Yeah.

14 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Again, this says you know,

15 "Any action to 'inhibit the adoption of the'" -- well

16 okay -- "of the proposed." As long as it was proposed

17 it's okay.

18 MR. BROOKMAN: No. We get that point.

19 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Got it. Okay.

20 MR. BROOKMAN: Steven, we got your earlier

21 point, too.

22 MR. COHEN: And also, if I can, can I go
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1 back to Tom? I just want to clarify just one thing in

2 response to what you were just asking about that you

3 were actually mixing two different topics there. One

4 is, to the extent that there is a negotiated

5 rulemaking, just generically, and we get negative

6 comments on that rulemaking, it does lead to questions

7 you know from our perspective about, whether the

8 consensus is actually representative, and whether

9 there's some issue with what actually occurred in the

10 process.

11 That would be what would happen. What you

12 actually, I think at the end of your statement were

13 referring to, is a somewhat different issue, which

14 goes to a particular statutory authority that DOE has

15 for adopting through something called a "direct final

16 rule," a consensus agreement submitted to us, which we

17 weren't actually part of the negotiation.

18 MR. ECKMAN: So those are two different

19 processes?

20 MR. COHEN: Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah, and in

21 that case if there's a negative comment, we -- there

22 are certain obligations that the Secretary might have
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1 that deal with that consensus agreement differently.

2 That begs the question of whether we would do it if

3 there were a consensus agreement with any negotiated

4 rulemaking, would we use that authority.

5 MR. ECKMAN: Right.

6 MR. COHEN: A question we haven't actually

7 crossed yet, but not that I'm encouraging you to

8 suggest it to us.

9 MR. ECKMAN: Far be it.

10 MR. COHEN: But --

11 MR. BROOKMAN: Are there any additional --

12 MR. COHEN: -- one other point. Could I

13 make?

14 MR. BROOKMAN: Yes.

15 MR. COHEN: So Mr. Barbour was just

16 referring to the -- or previously referred to the

17 language that was in the HVAC Certification Ground

18 Rules. And it was both broader and narrower actually,

19 than the language that's up on the screen at the

20 moment.

21 So the language in that particular case in

22 the ground rules was "Each party, except individuals
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1 that have previously expressed dissenting views on the

2 issue challenged, agrees not to take a position

3 materially inconsistent with the recommendation in

4 court or in any other forum, to the extent" --

5 MR. HANDZEL: Dan?

6 MR. COHEN: -- "the final recommendation" --

7 MR. HANDZEL: Excuse me for a second. We're

8 coming to that. That's actually the no challenge --

9 MR. COHEN: That's later, yeah, yeah, yeah.

10 MR. HANDZEL: -- provision in (f) so we

11 haven't covered that yet. There actually is a "No --

12 MR. COHEN: Oh. So this --

13 MR. HANDZEL: -- Negative Comments --

14 MR. COHEN: So they --

15 MR. HANDZEL: -- in refrigeration.

16 MR. COHEN: So they --

17 MR. HANDZEL: They yanked it completely.

18 MR. COHEN: They yanked it.

19 MR. HANDZEL: Yeah.

20 MR. COHEN: They've merged them together.

21 MR. HANDZEL: Right.

22 MR. COHEN: Yeah. Yeah. That's why I say
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1 both narrow and broad.

2 MR. HANDZEL: But that exact wording is in

3 (f) --

4 MR. COHEN: Yes.

5 MR. HANDZEL: -- that we're coming to.

6 MR. COHEN: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

7 MR. HANDZEL: Okay.

8 MR. COHEN: Yeah, yeah.

9 MR. HANDZEL: Okay. Sorry to interrupt. I

10 just wanted to clarify.

11 MR. BROOKMAN: Thank you for that because I

12 hadn't gotten that far yet. So I think this foregoing

13 discussion on negative comments was instructive,

14 useful; any additional thoughts on it?

15 I think the intent is, in this discussion is

16 fairly clear and the limits on your ability to deliver

17 or not deliver, it may be somewhat clear. Steve, go

18 ahead.

19 MR. ROSENSTOCK: I'm sorry. They put the

20 language in. He deleted it. That's going to be part

21 of (f) now, because there was a difference?

22 MALE VOICE: No, no.
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1 MR. ROSENSTOCK: No. There was a

2 difference. There was a difference. There was an

3 exception in there for individuals that disagreed.

4 MR. COHEN: Right. That's why I say -- that

5 was the certificate -- that was the language that was

6 agreed in the certification --

7 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Okay.

8 MR. COHEN: -- the HVAC Certification Ground

9 Rules.

10 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Gotcha.

11 MR. COHEN: And I was suggesting that it was

12 different because it was both narrower than this, but

13 broader because it also went to the --

14 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Right.

15 MR. COHEN: -- no challenging in court --

16 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Okay.

17 MR. COHEN: -- language.

18 MR. BROOKMAN: Let's switch --

19 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Thank you.

20 MR. BROOKMAN: -- (inaudible) --

21 (Crosstalk)

22 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Okay.
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1 MR. BROOKMAN: -- I mean I've made a note.

2 I'm not going to lose it. He's got it in there? Okay.

3 So then shall we just move on from (c)? I

4 think we understand (c).

5 (No response.)

6 MR. BROOKMAN: Yes? We're moving on.

7 MR. BROOKMAN: (d) "Response to Public

8 Comments: DOE will consider all relevant

9 comments, its statutory obligation, submitted

10 concerning the Notice of Proposed Rulemaking and will

11 make such modifications in the proposed standard and

12 its preamble as are necessary when issuing a final

13 standard."

14 I think this is kind of -- right --

15 understandable? They're bound by their obligations

16 and they've got to do it. Moving on to (e): "No

17 Adverse Action and Support."

18 MR. BROOKMAN: "Parties will not take any

19 action to inhibit the adoption of the recommended

20 proposed standard as a final standard."

21 Steve?

22 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Steve Rosenstock. Yeah,
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1 you know I think the first sentence says -- addresses

2 what Bob was saying about if we vote -- if someone

3 votes against, I'll say one particular issue out of,

4 let's say, the 70 that are voted on, then that says

5 that they can take that -- they could -- they would be

6 allowed to take a -- allowed to provide a challenge.

7 Is that how I'm -- am I reading that second paragraph

8 correctly, or not?

9 MR. COHEN: Okay. So they're different

10 issues at play here. One is about filing comments,

11 which is --

12 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Right.

13 MR. COHEN: -- coming back at the Agency and

14 saying, "Gee, remember we didn't -- we didn't like

15 this;" the other is taking actions to inhibit the

16 adoption like going out and trying other methods

17 through Congress or other forum, to try to stop the --

18 any consensus that is reached, which is a different

19 thing than just filing a comment that said, "Gee, I

20 still don't like this."

21 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Well the other question I

22 would have is, again, this is all the way down the
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1 road. There's a NOPR and no one around the table

2 makes a comment. Another party, party x, makes a

3 comment, DOE accepts the comment and changes the NOPR.

4 Can anyone around the table allow -- if people around

5 the table don't like it for some reason, are people

6 around the table allowed to challenge that change?

7 MR. COHEN: Yeah, so again, these are all

8 framed around it being consistent with the Term Sheet,

9 as adopted by -- in the consensus.

10 MR. ROSENSTOCK: So if it's -- Steve

11 Rosenstock, EEI. So if it's not consistent let's just

12 say for one issue --

13 MR. COHEN: Right.

14 MR. ROSENSTOCK: -- out of 70 --

15 MR. COHEN: Uh-huh.

16 MR. ROSENSTOCK: -- then for that one issue

17 --

18 MR. COHEN: Arguably --

19 MR. ROSENSTOCK: -- then we would be --

20 MR. COHEN: -- right.

21 MR. ROSENSTOCK: -- parties would be allowed

22 to challenge it.
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1 MR. BROOKMAN: It's important to note that

2 the construction, the composition of this Working

3 Group is meant to adequately reflect all the key

4 parties that should be at this table. And so

5 sometimes a convener, the Department could not get

6 that 100 percent right, but their intention is to have

7 all the big -- you know, all the major voices here so

8 that when Agreements get reached, the great, great

9 majority of those viewpoints are considered.

10 So no adverse action and support, the key

11 word there is "inhibit the adoption," right, of the

12 recommended proposed standard -- "action to inhibit."

13 Comments or questions on that? Steve?

14 MR. ROSENSTOCK: I'm sorry. Steve

15 Rosenstock, EEI. "For a period of one year from the

16 effective date of the rule," if there's a NOPR in 2014

17 and the effective date is 2017, does that mean that

18 they would not -- that means that goes through 2018?

19 Because isn't the effective date you know the date the

20 standard actually is in effect?

21 MR. ADIN: I think for the purposes of this

22 the effective date is talking about the date 30 days
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1 after publication, which is 60? Okay. Well, in this

2 case it might be 60 --

3 (Crosstalk)

4 MR. ROSENSTOCK: I'm just used to the term

5 "effective date" meaning --

6 MR. ADIN: Right.

7 MR. ROSENSTOCK: -- the effective -- actual

8 effective date of the standard --

9 MR. ADIN: So --

10 MR. ROSENSTOCK: -- when it's actually --

11 MR. ADIN: -- that --

12 MR. ROSENSTOCK: -- federal law.

13 MR. ADIN: -- that date we usually refer to

14 as the compliance date. So the effective date is just

15 the date in which that rule has effect --

16 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Yeah.

17 MR. ADIN: -- as law.

18 MR. ROSENSTOCK: In the Federal Register

19 it's like this. This rule shall be in effect as of,

20 or is effective as of you know three years after the

21 publication of --

22 (Crosstalk)
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1 MR. COHEN: So actually we --

2 MR. ROSENSTOCK: -- the --

3 MR. COHEN: -- state it a little different.

4 We say the rule is effective 60 days after the date of

5 publication. Compliance is required three years later

6 --

7 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Okay.

8 MR. COHEN: -- or whatever --

9 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Thank you.

10 MR. COHEN: -- it may be. Yeah.

11 MR. BROOKMAN: So but Steve, you're taking

12 us to (f), "No Challenge." And it'll take comments

13 here.

14 MR. BROOKMAN: "Each party agrees not to

15 take a position materially inconsistent with the

16 standard or a determination in court or any other

17 forum to the extent the final standard or

18 determination and its preamble have the same substance

19 and effect as the Term Sheet, for a period of one year

20 And this is where we go to the point you

21 raised earlier, Bob. What's your thinking Bob?

22 MR. BARBOUR: Just add (inaudible) --
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1 (Crosstalk)

2 MR. BROOKMAN: E-edit?

3 MR. BARBOUR: -- to the other text.

4 MR. BROOKMAN: Bob that's your intent,

5 right?

6 MR. BARBOUR: (No response.)

7 MR. BROOKMAN: That's pretty clear as

8 written I think.

9 (No response.)

10 MR. BROOKMAN: Dan Cohen?

11 MR. COHEN: Dan Cohen. So there's actually

12 a legal issue there, which you may now, know. You're

13 kind of stepping into -- which is, that if you've

14 agreed not to file a comment and then there is no

15 comment on a particular issue, but you then, sue the

16 Agency on the issue, you may not be able to maintain

17 your challenge because you didn't present the view to

18 the Agency first --

19 MR. HANDZEL: Ah.

20 MR. COHEN: -- for the Agency to resolve.

21 Without getting into all the niceties of that --

22 MR. HANDZEL: (Off mic.) (Inaudible) public
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1 comment period (inaudible) --

2 (Crosstalk)

3 MR. COHEN: Yeah.

4 MR. HANDZEL: -- NOPR?

5 MR. COHEN: Yeah.

6 MS. KOHL: So would we put that same

7 language in the (inaudible)?

8 MR. COHEN: Yep.

9 MS. KOHL: So that the two naysayers

10 (inaudible) --

11 MR. COHEN: Right.

12 MR. HANDZEL: They have the same rights in

13 both places.

14 MR. COHEN: Right.

15 MR. HANDZEL: I think that makes sense.

16 MS. WALTNER: I have a comment on that

17 language. I read that language as saying, if you've

18 expressed dissenting views over any issue, not a

19 dissenting view over the Consensus Agreement, and I

20 wonder whether we want this -- I wouldn't want to be

21 able to have a court challenge based on any dissenting

22 view you've ever expressed throughout the
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1 negotiations.

2 Perhaps if you've voted negatively on the

3 final agreement then it makes sense to be able to

4 express that view, but you know --

5 MR. BROOKMAN: Right.

6 FEMALE VOICE: -- you support the package as

7 the package you don't parse out what you like and what

8 you don't like publicly afterwards.

9 MR. BROOKMAN: Lucas?

10 MR. ADIN: And that's another point of

11 distinction. Is it actually casting a no-vote or just

12 expressing a negative view on the record about a

13 point? I mean it seems like we're talking about no14 votes, but

15 MR. HUBER: I think you know it's the no16 vote.

17 MR. ADIN: Yeah.

18 MR. HUBER: And it's on the final agreement.

19 MR. ADIN: Yeah.

20 MR. HUBER: If you cast a negative vote then

21 you should have a right to make comment and do

22 whatever you want to do, but you know she's right. We
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1 don't need to parse this out for each individual thing

2 we don't agree with because I'm sure everybody's going

3 to disagree about something.

4 MS. KOHL: Voting negatively on the

5 Agreement (inaudible) (off mic.).

6 MR. BROOKMAN: On the final agreement?

7 MALE VOICE: Yeah. It's on the final

8 agreement.

9 MR. HUBER: That needs to be in both places.

10 MS. WALTNER: Should it also be -- well I

11 was wondering if it should also be under Part (d) if

12 we need to -- or Part (e). Excuse me.

13 MALE VOICE: (e).

14 MS. KOHL: Yeah.

15 MALE VOICE: (e) is no different.

16 MR. BROOKMAN: So maybe rather than do a

17 vigorous legal review right now, maybe we'll accept

18 these in draft form and noting with a clear sense of

19 what the intent is, and give our attorneys a chance to

20 think about where they might best fit and where it

21 fits here best or whatever, and accept these

22 provisionally now, and then we're going to keep moving
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1 on as a consequence.

2 So that's the No Challenge provision in (f).

3 We're almost through these, folks. (f). "MR.

4 BROOKMAN" that's me. I will work with the parties to

5 ensure the process runs smoothly. I serve at the will

6 of the Working Group. If at some point you don't like

7 what I'm doing you can dismiss me. I'm serious, you

8 may.

9 MR. COHEN: Actually though, I think

10 technically, just to be clear, Doug is our contractor

11 so you really can't technically fire him.

12 (Laughter.)

13 MR. COHEN: Only we can.

14 MR. ROSENSTOCK: That's not what it says.

15 That's not what it says.

16 MR. COHEN: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah.

17 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Well, if you all didn't

18 want Doug to be the MR. BROOKMAN anymore, it would be

19 pretty clear we'd have to find a different MR.

20 BROOKMAN.

21 MR. BROOKMAN: Yeah. If you don't like me

22 we'll find you someone good.
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1 (Laughter.)

2 MR. FERNSTROM: Well this is Gary,

3 California IOUs. I think Steve makes a good point and

4 we shouldn't just because it's a technical minutia

5 overlook it. We ought to say that the group can

6 recommend DOE dismiss him.

7 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Okay. That's good.

8 And then on to meetings.

9 MR. BROOKMAN: These policy statements,

10 which are -- can be quite arcane. "Negotiations will

11 be conducted under the FACA Work Group Act, the

12 Negotiated Rulemaking Act and Department of Energy's

13 Negotiated Rulemaking Policy Act." And this is why we

14 need our attorneys present and why we need the

15 umbrella of the shield from ASRAC.

16 MR. COHEN: We're going to make -- we have

17 to make one sort of legal change there, actually,

18 which is strike "The Department of Energy Negotiated

19 Rulemaking Policy," because actually nothing of such

20 title exists.

21 (Laughter.)

22 MR. COHEN: And insert "The Energy Policy
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1 and Conservation Act," which is, in fact, the statute

2 under which we are functioning.

3 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Which one?

4 MR. COHEN: Energy Policy and Conservation

5 Act.

6 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Which one?

7 MR. COHEN: Of 1975 as amended.

8 MR. BROOKMAN: So the acronym would be EPCA.

9 MR. BROOKMAN: Yeah. So then with no

10 objection, we're moving on.

11 MR. BROOKMAN: Open Meetings. As we have

12 demonstrated in this meeting today, these meetings

13 will be announced in the Federal Register and they'll

14 be open to the public. The Department has been doing

15 a great job of keeping all parties informed about its

16 activities and I presume they'll do that in the

17 future. They're obligated as such here.

18 MR. BROOKMAN: Meeting Summaries. None of

19 the Negotiated Rulemakings that I've ever done had a

20 complete meeting transcript. We always relied on a

21 note taker and someone like me (inaudible) a Meeting

22 Summary. So that's really a significant additional
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1 bit of transparency and disclosure and all of that

2 which I think is very positive.

3 But with your permission, I will write a

4 brief Meeting Summary. I'll read the meeting

5 transcript. I will write a brief Meeting Summary that

6 captures the major outcomes from the previous meeting

7 and I'm thinking it's somewhere between two, three,

8 five, six pages, in that general range, after each

9 meeting.

10 Okay? That will be part of my job. And

11 that will not thought to be an official position of

12 the Working Group or any Members -- yep that will just

13 be my report.

14 What's the next to last sentence mean, Dan,

15 "In the absence of consensus"?

16 MR. COHEN: That because -- just because you

17 say something in this room that you'll be willing to

18 accept a provision; if there is no consensus on

19 accepting that provision you're not bound to that.

20 It's sort of belt and suspenders on the whole concept

21 here that absent consensus

22 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. So now, just I want to
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1 be clear with everybody the spots where we are here.

2 This is the second-to-last sentence in (c) "In the

3 absence of consensus, parties shall not be bound by

4 positions taken or accepted." I didn't read it fully.

5 Steve?

6 MR. ROSENSTOCK: I guess I don't know if I

7 see the need for that sentence in this Meeting

8 Summary. It's just a summary of what happened, it's

9 not like an official -- well I guess you might be

10 describing the votes that were taken.

11 MR. COHEN: So Steve that was meant to

12 address the transcript.

13 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Okay.

14 MR. COHEN: That's elsewhere in the -- maybe

15 order-wise the paragraph can be re-ordered, but the

16 fact is that the transcript will be verbatim.

17 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Okay. Steve Rosenstock,

18 EEI. The transcript, will that be like -- will that

19 be published? Will that be a public document as well?

20 And the Meeting Summary is meant for public or for the

21 Working Group?

22 MR. COHEN: It will be a public document as
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1 well.

2 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Be a public document as

3 well?

4 MR. COHEN: Yeah.

5 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Okay. I think you might

6 want to say that in here somewhere that it's

7 distributed to the Working Group and to the public so

8 everybody knows. It might be help -- to help clarify

9 because I wasn't sure if it's just for the Working

10 Group, only; I couldn't tell.

11 MR. COHEN: Yeah, we can add a sentence, I

12 guess that both the summary and the transcript will be

13 made available to the public and included in the

14 rulemaking docket.

15 MR. BROOKMAN: It's good that's clear.

16 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Add "included in the

17 rulemaking docket."

18 MR. COHEN: Right.

19 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay.

20 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Thank you.

21 MR. BROOKMAN: Thank you. Are we all okay

22 with that?
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1 (No response.)

2 MR. BROOKMAN: That's pretty clear and

3 getting more transparent all the time and then

4 finally, Future Amendments.

5 MR. BROOKMAN: "Working Group Members may

6 propose modifications to this document with due

7 consideration given such proposals." Oh, yes. So as

8 this Working Group proceeds, once we establish by

9 vote, finally, that this document's operational, then

10 Working Group Members, we might find that there's a

11 need to amend certain things as we go along. We will

12 consider those in due course. Okay? Louis?

13 MR. STARR: Just kind of -- are we going to

14 work off slides? For instance, maybe one of the first

15 things we'll define what a pump is. I assume that

16 we'll end up kind of like what we're doing here on the

17 rules we'll be working off a piece of paper so that

18 everybody can see like things with definitions and

19 things.

20 So that usually takes the form of you all

21 have slides and then they have topics and then they

22 sort of adjust that thing as they go on important
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1 items such as definitions and things that people agree

2 on, consensus agreement, and that I'm not sure if

3 that's -- exactly how that's going to work because the

4 summary could be the conflict potentially, with that.

5 MR. BROOKMAN: Re-state your concern.

6 MR. STARR: Are we going to work off of

7 slides to get specific definitions?

8 MR. BROOKMAN: Lucas?

9 MR. ADIN: I think the question that you're

10 asking, and correct me if I'm wrong, but is "Are we

11 essentially going to have some sort of working

12 document that's a representation of what we're

13 deciding on as we go."

14 MR. STARR: Yes.

15 MR. ADIN: So that we're not just talking in

16 abstract and hoping to record everything. Yeah. So

17 the answer to that generally speaking, is yes. We

18 prepared slides for things like scope and coverage and

19 definitions and all those kinds of things, and as we

20 get to them we'll have them available.

21 There's [sic] a couple of upfront things I

22 don't think we actually have slides for so we may just
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1 need to take notes and make sure that we've recorded

2 them accurately, but yes, we should be doing that.

3 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. So that concludes our

4 initial review of the ground rules. We've gotten

5 through about 90 percent of it. There are a few

6 elements we haven't been able to conclude, such as the

7 (d) that's 3(d) "Deadline for Negotiations" on Page 3.

8 We've also made amendments as we've been

9 going along, so that's been helpful. I think that's

10 about the only thing that we didn't conclude.

11 MR. BARBOUR: I did have a question.

12 MR. BROOKMAN: What was -- yes? Bob?

13 MR. BARBOUR: Bob Barbour. We did have a

14 question on the alternatives for Working Group

15 Members.

16 MR. BROOKMAN: Yep.

17 MR. COHEN: And we have an answer to that

18 question actually, which is why I was late coming back

19 from lunch. The answer to that is yes. There is no

20 problem with a foreign national being an alternate,

21 but please if you know it's a foreign national, we

22 need to -- there's a clearance procedure that have to
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1 go through the building.

2 Depending on the country of which they

3 are a foreign national, those procedures are more or

4 less vigorous. Canada tends not to be a problem, but

5 you can imagine other countries that might be so

6 MR. BROOKMAN: Steve Rosenstock?

7 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Steve Rosenstock. Just a

8 quick follow up on for our -- for the alternate Member

9 -- for our alternates that we'd like to appoint. If

10 you could email us what information you need about the

11 alternate. What kind of contact information or other

12 information you need so that we can get that to you in

13 a quick manner that would -- you know, that would be

14 helpful.

15 We'll try to -- I'll try to do a quick

16 turnaround within a few business days to get that

17 information to you. I'm sure other people would as

18 well.

19 MR. BROOKMAN: Yeah. So following the

20 earlier discussion if you, as a Member, are not going

21 to make it to a meeting then the Department would

22 request that you provide the name of your alternate in
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1 advance of the meeting. And then, Steve, your

2 suggesting that maybe the Department should do some

3 sort of an email blast so you can name an alternate

4 now?

5 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Yeah. Just to add to the

6 roster so that people know that you know John Smith is

7 my alternate and --

8 MR. COHEN: You can just send us you know --

9 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Okay.

10 MR. COHEN: -- subsequent to this meeting

11 send us an email to the ASRAC box --

12 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Right.

13 MR. COHEN: -- as to, who your alternate

14 might be. And then, if any meeting comes along where

15 you need to actually have the alternate represent you

16 --

17 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Yeah.

18 MR. COHEN: -- also, email the ASRAC --

19 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Right.

20 MR. COHEN: -- an email address --

21 (Crosstalk)

22 MR. ROSENSTOCK: And I just wanted to --
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1 just -- I just wanted to clarify what information did

2 you need about the alternate just for your whatever

3 legal or whatever like -- you know is he or she a U.S.

4 citizen --

5 MR. COHEN: Yeah.

6 MR. ROSENSTOCK: -- is there anything else

7 you need?

8 MR. COHEN: Yeah. Name, organization, and

9 contact information.

10 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Okay. Thank you.

11 MR. BROOKMAN: Yeah. Okay. Yes? Chuck?

12 MR. POWERS: Yeah, a question -- Chuck

13 Powers from FLOWSERVE. We talked about it -- under,

14 right at Paragraph 3, on "Decision Making," this is

15 not a challenge, but if you could pull it up on the

16 board and move the screen over.

17 We talked -- just a question. Because of

18 the consensus, and we talked about the (inaudible), do

19 we need to change the quorum of two thirds? I know we

20 kicked that around and then we were moving on, but is

21 that -- does that need to be changed or was it okay?

22 MR. BROOKMAN: It's up to you. Do you have
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1 any thoughts at this point?

2 MR. POWERS: Well I heard, I think, Gary

3 mention 13 was it? And then I've heard other people

4 so what I'm saying is two thirds seemed a little lower

5 than what I heard so I'm just asking.

6 MR. FERNSTROM: This is Gary Fernstrom. The

7 two thirds or the thirteen I mentioned was with

8 respect to consensus --

9 MR. POWERS: Oh.

10 MR. FERNSTROM: -- not quorum. I don't care

11 about the quorum.

12 MR. POWERS: All right then. Then fine.

13 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay?

14 (No response.)

15 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Noting that we haven't

16 resolved the issues related to date, do you wish to

17 now see if we have achieved a consensus on the ground

18 rules? Are we ready to do this?

19 And then noting we'll revisit the issue of -

20 -

21 (Off mic. discussion.)

22 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Okay. Then -- Dan
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1 makes a good suggestion. We'll clean it up.

2 MR. COHEN: We will get you back clean and

3 redlined versions --

4 MR. BROOKMAN: For tomorrow.

5 MR. COHEN: -- for tomorrow --

6 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay.

7 MR. COHEN: -- so we can see --

8 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Good.

9 MR. COHEN: -- comment.

10 MR. BROOKMAN: Yes?

11 MS. WALTNER: Could we get those in an

12 electronic copy too, by any chance?

13 MR. COHEN: Assuming we have everybody's

14 email I don't see --

15 MS. WALTNER: Okay.

16 MR. COHEN: -- why not, and we should have

17 everybody's email.

18 MALE VOICE: We also, make it available --

19 MR. COHEN: Oh, okay. The other thing that

20 we've set up for this, as well as for our previous

21 Negotiated Rulemakings, is we set up a share point

22 site for all of you so conversation -- what happened
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1 in the original transformer negotiations when we did

2 that was we did everything by email and people were

3 just getting inundated with email.

4 So we set up the share point site so you can

5 log on when you want and join whatever conversations

6 you want to join into, but then all relevant documents

7 are there as well.

8 MR. BROOKMAN: Great.

9 MR. COHEN: So we could put in the share

10 point --

11 MR. HUBER: So we -- several of us have had

12 great difficulty getting on.

13 (Off mic. comment.)

14 MR. HUBER: Yeah we -- you sent out two

15 different passwords, but it wouldn't accept either

16 one.

17 (Laughter.)

18 MR. HUBER: So I don't know.

19 MR. COHEN: That's DOE Security.

20 MALE VOICE: Unless it wasn't active yet.

21 MR. HUBER: Unless it wasn't active --

22 MALE VOICE: Yeah.
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1 MR. HUBER: -- at the time you sent it out.

2 I don't know.

3 (Off mic discussion.)

4 MR. FREEMAN: I helped set you guys up with

5 it. I don't really control that so that's an email

6 that would have to go to the ee.sharepoint@doe.gov --

7 (Crosstalk)

8 (Off mic. discussion.)

9 MR. BROOKMAN: But regardless, Jeremiah, we

10 will --

11 MR. FREEMAN: -- me and I'll help you get it

12 --

13 (Crosstalk)

14 MR. BROOKMAN: We'll provide -- you'll

15 provide the access point for share point right?

16 MR. FREEMAN: Yes.

17 MR. BROOKMAN: And will you do that in an

18 email?

19 MR. FREEMAN: I'll do it in an email.

20 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Okay?

21 (No response.)

22 MR. BROOKMAN: Gary?
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1 MR. FERNSTROM: Gary Fernstrom, California

2 IOU's. So there's one thing that still concerns me

3 about moving toward consensus on this and that's the

4 dates that we had in there. Are you going to propose

5 a placeholder for that?

6 MR. BROOKMAN: (Non-verbal response.)

7 MR. FERNSTROM: Okay. Thank you.

8 MR. BROOKMAN: Gary, I think we will leave

9 it as it was: A date in the two places where a date

10 still needs to be discussed. Right?

11 MR. FERNSTROM: So we'd reach consensus on

12 this without the dates in it?

13 MR. BROOKMAN: No, no, no, no. Just for

14 purposes of further discussion on that point. I think

15 that was the open point left for discussion. Right?

16 MALE VOICE: We said we were going to come

17 back to that before we adjourn tomorrow I think --

18 MR. BROOKMAN: Yeah.

19 MR. COHEN: Yeah.

20 MALE VOICE: -- you said, Doug?

21 MR. BROOKMAN: Yeah.

22 MR. COHEN: Yeah, yeah so we wouldn't adopt
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1 this --

2 MR. FERNSTROM: Oh. Oh.

3 MR. COHEN: -- before...

4 MR. FERNSTROM: I understand. Thank you.

5 MR. BROOKMAN: Yeah. And so I'm hoping that

6 now, in fact, maybe we should take a break right now.

7 We've made -- really covered a lot of ground and been

8 very efficient. It's now 3:35 p.m. let's take a --

9 we're going to probably go until you know close to

10 6:00 p.m.

11 So is the coffee shop still open? Yeah?

12 Downstairs, the coffee shop is still open and there's

13 a soda machine --

14 MR. COHEN: No. They closed at 3:00 p.m.

15 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Oh.

16 (Laughter.)

17 (Off mic. discussion.)

18 MR. BROOKMAN: Over on 6th.

19 MALE VOICE: The 4th floor is on this side.

20 MR. BROOKMAN: The 4th floor on this side.

21 Is anybody going to go and then we can take a

22 delegation right?
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1 (Laughter.)

2 MR. HANDZEL: We need a subgroup for that.

3 (Laughter.)

4 MR. COHEN: We need bread crumbs.

5 MALE VOICE: A tour guide.

6 MR. BROOKMAN: So if anybody wants coffee

7 they can follow -- is one of you going to go?

8 (Off mic. discussion.)

9 MS. KOHL: I can take people over there.

10 MR. BROOKMAN: Will you take people over

11 there?

12 MS. KOHL: Yep.

13 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay.

14 MS. KOHL: You're on your own on the way

15 back.

16 MR. BROOKMAN: Yeah.

17 (Laughter.)

18 (Off mic. discussion.)

19 MR. BROOKMAN: Yeah. Betsy, it's not that

20 hard to get back. And then when we return, we're

21 going to talk a little bit about things related to --

22 that relate to the duration of the negotiation, the
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1 objective and scope of a negotiation's key features

2 issues there.

3 So it's now 3:35 p.m. We'll resume in 15

4 minutes, which is 3:50 p.m. Okay?

5 (No response.)

6 MR. BROOKMAN: So great progress. We're

7 doing well here and I'll see you back here to resume

8 at 3:50 p.m. Wear your badge. Restrooms at both ends

9 of the hall.

10 (Recess at 3:35 p.m.)

11 MR. BROOKMAN: We were spending a few

12 minutes here in the front of the room trying to decide

13 how to proceed next because if you look at your agenda

14 it says discussion of rulemaking objective and scope

15 of negotiations both of which are big topics. And a

16 lot of which have not been fully defined. And it gets

17 us back to kind of the chicken and egg thing that

18 Joanna and others have been referring to.

19 As we launch into this negotiation there is

20 a lot of information we don't have. There is some

21 information we do have and so just thinking about how

22 we might begin this discussion about objective and
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1 scope I thought I would ask Lucas to kind of cue this

2 up a little bit.

3 One key element is completing the ground

4 rules and particularly the scope does relate to

5 duration of the negotiation. But take it from here.

6 MR. ADIN: So what we are talking about is

7 most specifically in reference to how to figure out

8 this issue of dates and when we are actually going to

9 be feasibly able to complete a product, provide it to

10 ASRAC, and then have time to turn it into a NOPR. And

11 so getting back to that chicken and egg issue there

12 are certain issues that are critical to hammer out

13 first so that we know how complex the analysis will be

14 and get an idea of what a reasonable amount of time is

15 needed to get there.

16 And so what we are thinking is maybe at the

17 very least we can try and agree that the goal by the

18 end of tomorrow will be to have agreed upon these

19 ground rules including the dates. And in the interim

20 period talk about the critical issues that are

21 essential to determining the most reasonable amount of

22 time to get there.
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1 And for us anyway I will just state up front

2 of course you know there are other people's opinions

3 about what these critical issues are certainly speak

4 up but one of them is the test procedure obviously. Is

5 figuring out when we will have a test method to

6 discuss and what it will be and how a product will be

7 tested.

8 And then the other issues are related to

9 scope. Which products are we to cover and the metric,

10 what kind of efficiency metric ultimately will be used

11 to rate the products and determine their efficiency

12 because that determines how we are going to come up

13 with standards. How we are going to analyze their

14 economic feasibility and all those aspects.

15 So those things all contribute to the

16 potential complexity and duration of the analysis. And

17 so those are things we feel it will be useful to talk

18 about in the near term. Hopefully we can be

19 comfortable through the rest of today and tomorrow

20 with our discussion to get to some dates that we are

21 reasonably comfortable with.

22 Okay. So I -- Tom, sorry.
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1 MR. BROOKMAN: Tom, please.

2 MR. ECKMAN: Yes, once we get past test

3 procedure and efficiency metric in terms of getting

4 scope of coverage our side of the table needs market

5 profile information about where the products -- what

6 products are large and what products are small in

7 terms of scale and impacts. And that will help

8 determine our interest in what we would think ought to

9 be covered and we think may not be necessary to cover

10 because it is a diminutive part of the product

11 offerings.

12 MR. BROOKMAN: So just pause right there.

13 Let me ask do we have market profile information at

14 this point Alison?

15 That microphone is notoriously

16 uncooperative.

17 MS. WILLIAMS: Alison Williams, LBNL. We

18 have market profile information for a certain segment

19 of products that may be within scope. But we may not

20 have market information for the entire scope that

21 perhaps is going to be considered. So we will just

22 have to work with you as these decisions are made I
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1 think. But we will certainly provide and work with

2 you on whatever is available.

3 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay.

4 MS. MAUER: This is Joanna. Is that

5 something you can provide now or --

6 MS. WILLIAMS: So it is not really like

7 ready in a final pretty format because we haven't

8 known exactly what we need to be analyzing. So we

9 would need a little bit of time basically to make sure

10 everything is aggregate -- all the confidential data

11 is fully aggregated and make sure it is rolled up into

12 the things that you want to analyze. But certainly by

13 the next meeting we could provide something that you

14 guys want to look at.

15 MR. BROOKMAN: So we don't know at this

16 point and DOE hasn't described and the efficiency

17 advocates haven't described and the industry has not

18 yet described whether this enterprise is pony sized or

19 elephant sized; right.

20 MR. HUBER: Doug --

21 MR. ADIN: It is somewhere in --

22 MR. HUBER: Can I make a comment?
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1 MR. BROOKMAN: Yes.

2 MR. HUBER: There has been quite -- we

3 proposed the scope --

4 MR. BROOKMAN: Yes.

5 MR. HUBER: Or Hydraulic Institute proposed

6 the scope.

7 MR. BROOKMAN: Uh-huh.

8 MR. HUBER: And we gave a lot of data

9 surrounding that scope. If you go far beyond that

10 scope we have no data. So we would have to go back

11 and try to come up with data to support it. So I

12 think we need to bear that in mind if you are trying

13 for a short time span to expand the scope beyond what

14 we had is going to be very difficult. I mean I would

15 like to ask --

16 MR. BROOKMAN: What did you propose as the

17 scope for those of us that don't know this or don't

18 remember?

19 MR. HUBER: I want to make sure I get this

20 correct. Do you want to answer that or do you want me

21 to answer that?

22 MR. HANDZEL: Mark Handzel from Xylem. I
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1 believe it is part of the public record from the

2 public hearing.

3 MR. BROOKMAN: Yes and I think I remember

4 about half of it.

5 MR. HANDZEL: So all of that information is

6 there so if the group, everyone here at the table

7 doesn't have that we should get it to them.

8 MR. BROOKMAN: Yes.

9 MR. HANDZEL: Because we were pretty clear

10 and concise from the Hydraulics Institute's

11 prospective which all of us at the table were -- you

12 have that --

13 MR. BROOKMAN: He's got it. I think it is

14 useful to hear it again.

15 MR. HUBER: Flexible couple horizontal frame

16 mounted and centrifugal, flexible couple horizontal

17 foot mounted centrifugal, otherwise known as end

18 suction. End suction close coupled, single stage end

19 suction. And those are two different types. And then

20 we have three types or three descriptions for vertical

21 inline which are flexible couple vertical inline,

22 rigid couple vertical inline, and close couple
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1 vertical inline. Then we have inline casing diffuser

2 pumps which is another one. And we have close couple

3 submersible diffuser centrifugal four or six inch bowl

4 diameter only. And that is five different groups.

5 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay.

6 MR. HUBER: And that is what we originally -

7 - that is what Hydraulic Institute originally

8 proposed.

9 MR. BROOKMAN: And when you did that was

10 Hydraulic Institute able to provide market profile

11 information as Tom Eckman has suggested.

12 MR. HUBER: I believe that we have provided

13 at least efficiency information, cost of redesign

14 information and they also have market information I

15 think from their meetings with all of us.

16 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Lucas?

17 MR. ADIN: So just to make a clarifying

18 point with respect to scope generally what you are

19 referring to are specific classes of pumps.

20 MR. HUBER: Yes.

21 MR. ADIN: Irrespective of whether it has a

22 motor or a drive, it is just the pumping arrangement
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1 in other words, right? So scope for our purposes

2 includes -- it actually starts a little broader than

3 that because we are talking about is this going to be

4 limited just to the hydraulic portion? Is it going to

5 be the hydraulic portion and the motor? Or all the

6 way out to the, what they refer to as --

7 MR. HUBER: Right as the system or --

8 MR. ADIN: Right.

9 MR. HUBER: -- extended product; is that

10 what you are referring to?

11 MR. ADIN: Right.

12

13 MR. HUBER: Okay. Now that consisted --

14 yes, that is another part of the scope.

15 MR. HANDZEL: Also in the same letter.

16 MR. HUBER: Also in the same proposal we

17 made. We made a proposal for extended product. And we

18 defined it.

19 MR. BROOKMAN: And that extended product

20 would be also described as the whole system?

21 MR. HANDZEL: It is the pump, the driver and

22 the sensor. So it was what we call --
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1 MR. HUBER: And the control.

2 MR. HANDZEL: And the control.

3 MR. HUBER: Control feedback basically.

4 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay.

5 MR. HUBER: And we described that also.

6 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay.

7 MR. HUBER: We also described I think in a

8 broader sense if you are talking about pumps, we

9 described only standard pumps, non-engineered, non10 specialized design. We described only clean water

11 including gray water. 26 gpm or greater up to 459

12 feet of total head. Horsepower range from one

13 horsepower to 200. Pumps designed to operate at a

14 temperature of -10 degrees Celsius to +120 degrees

15 Celsius. So that was our scope.

16 MR. ADIN: And my recollection is that those

17 things were all laid out pretty clearly in the

18 framework document.

19 MR. HUBER: And they are pretty much similar

20 in the framework document.

21 MR. FERNSTROM: Doug?

22 MR. BROOKMAN: Oh go ahead, sorry.
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1 MR. FERNSTROM: This is Gary, California

2 IOU's. Is anyone going to ask what the advocates

3 proposed in the scope as --?

4 MR. BROOKMAN: I am happy to do that. I

5 just wanted to kind of get completeness in this little

6 chunk here and then I am coming right back to you.

7 Did you have a follow on question Lucas?

8 MR. ADIN: No.

9 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Yes then --

10 MR. HANDZEL: Can I just add one last thing.

11 MR. BROOKMAN: Yes please.

12 MR. HANDZEL: Mark Handzel from Xylem. So

13 in our initial scoping letter that we provided we did

14 not have market information. We used some public

15 information that we didn't consider reliable. It was

16 an estimate. But as Al commented all of us who have

17 been interviewed by the consultant team have provided

18 pretty extensive data that could be used to put a

19 profile together to match what Al gave as descriptions

20 for those pump categories.

21 MR. BROOKMAN: As aggregated.

22 MR. HANDZEL: Right.
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1 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay.

2 MR. HANDZEL: And that did include motor

3 data. That did include drive data because they asked

4 us all those questions.

5 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. So yes, Gary the way

6 you said that caused me to think that the energy

7 efficiency advocacy caucus is organized.

8 MR. FERNSTROM: Well -- [Laughter.]

9 MR. FERNSTROM: We are not organized to the

10 extent that we haven't decided yet where we want to be

11 pending the presentation and discussion of all this

12 market information. But we did collectively present a

13 position. And without surprising her I hope Joanna

14 can talk a little bit about that.

15 MR. BROOKMAN: Joanna, you can say no.

16 [Laughter.]

17 MR. BROOKMAN: Or we could wait until

18 tomorrow even though I prefer to do this now.

19 MS. MAUER: That is all right. I guess I

20 will just prefacethis by saying that I think we now

21 will have the benefit of much more data than we did

22 previously so I think we've made a lot of good
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1 progress in discussions with HI on scope. But I think

2 we also see this somewhat as a fresh start because of

3 new stakeholders and a new process here.

4 I can try to summarize what we said in our

5 framework comments.

6 MR. BROOKMAN: Do you wish to say, don't let

7 me put words in your mouth, that you had initial

8 impressions or assumptions and operating premises that

9 with new data may cause you to do a course correction?

10 MS. MAUER: I think that is right.

11 MR. BROOKMAN: I thought that is what you

12 were saying.

13 MS. MAUER: Yes that we'd in this process

14 like to make decisions based on --

15 MR. BROOKMAN: And that is a good thing to

16 say because we haven't begun this back and forth yet;

17 right. That is really one of the huge benefits here.

18 Okay. So whatever you wish to say.

19 MS. MAUER: Well I can summarize I think

20 what we said in our framework comments. We generally

21 supported the scope proposed by HI including

22 supporting limiting this rulemaking to clean water
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1 pumps; generally supporting some of the kind of values

2 that described the scope that Al mentioned such as

3 horsepower range, minimum flow et cetera.

4 We outlined two categories of pumps that we

5 thought are important to consider in this rulemaking

6 that were not part of the HI proposal. One was double

7 suction pumps. And the second was circulators. And I

8 think those are two areas where we would like to see

9 some market data to help us get a better sense for

10 kind of sales and energy consumption to get a better

11 idea of what the potential savings are for those two

12 categories of pumps.

13 And then also we've had a lot of discussions

14 with HI about this extended product approach. And in

15 our framework comments I don't want to say we made a

16 proposal. I think we made a suggestion about a

17 potential idea to explore related to extended products

18 which was to focus on smaller horsepower pumps and to

19 see whether it could make sense for smaller horsepower

20 pumps to have two categories of pumps, one would be

21 bare shaft pumps and one would be pumps that are sold

22 by the pump manufacturer with a motor with the idea of
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1 trying to encourage more sales of these pump motor VSD

2 combinations. So if anyone wants to add to that.

3 MR. FERNSTROM: Gary Fernstrom from

4 California IOU's. I would add just this perspective.

5 We have been talking to Hydraulics Institute for a

6 while. I think we understand each other's positions.

7 I thought I just heard HI say this is what we think

8 ought to be on the scope and we provided the

9 information we have available on that. They didn't

10 say that they provided any information on things we

11 think ought to be in this scope that they don't. So

12 we may be behind on gathering the kind of information

13 we would like to see to determine whether or not we

14 want to continue with the course we've set out or

15 whether we want to be convinced that HI is right and

16 these things should not be included in the scope.

17 MR. BROOKMAN: I see. So let me ask kind of

18 a basic question and would I offend the industry

19 members here if I call you the industry caucus; is

20 that okay. Would those of you that are members of the

21 industry, the categories of pumps, the information

22 that Joanna just referred to that apparently fall
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1 outside your initial scope, do you have information on

2 that, market information? Mark?

3 MR. HANDZEL: Certainly we have information

4 but I think the Navigant, Lawrence Livermore group,

5 their survey was like a 60-page document that took us

6 --

7 MR. BROOKMAN: So they have the bulk --

8 MR. HANDZEL: -- weeks and weeks to prepare.

9 MR. BROOKMAN: They have the bulk of what --

10 MR. HANDZEL: But they didn't completely

11 request all the data that would comply with what Gary

12 is referring to.

13 MR. BROOKMAN: Uh-huh.

14 MR. HANDZEL: They asked a lot of it but

15 they didn't ask for everything.

16 MR. BROOKMAN: Uh-huh.

17 MR. HANDZEL: So I don't think they have

18 everything but again I am going off the top of my head

19 what was in the survey. It is a lot of information.

20 MR. BROOKMAN: Uh-huh.

21 MR. POWERS: You look at the work that was

22 done by EU right and they pretty much limited to what
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1 Mr. Huber explained a minute ago. They went into

2 detail for four or five years on a lot of the other

3 services. They actually looked at making sure that if

4 you get into some of the larger double suctions and

5 stuff and there are a handful of them. It isn't the

6 lion share that may absorb or get involved in the

7 power issues and efficiency. The systems as you call

8 it I have concern over because we get told which

9 motors to use whatever and I think binding us to the

10 motor combined could lead to complications; right. And

11 are we get into pump and motor because this talks

12 about pumps. It doesn't talk about motors on a

13 combined system and I understand and I agree with.

14 Don't get me wrong. It is a wire to water situation.

15 But in the marketplace also when you are shipping

16 stuff over the water -- shipping a motor that is made

17 in Brazil from the US when the destination Brazil or

18 you can come to the States whatever it doesn't make

19 any sense. So you do a lot of pair pumps that are

20 built and shipped globally right and packaged in other

21 places; right. And then you look at the amount of

22 time if there is a timeline of June or whatever it is
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1 we talked about, the amount of data you are talking

2 about here can it be collected they aren't sure I

3 think is what Mark was trying to share but you could

4 be talking three, four, five months to get the amount

5 of data you need just to collect data.

6 MR. BROOKMAN: Gary.

7 MR. FERNSTROM: Okay. So this is Gary

8 Fernstrom from California IOUs again. I totally agree

9 with you. And my interest is limited to the smaller

10 horsepower products that are sold by the industry as

11 integrated units not ones that you might ship

12 separately. So the difficulty of gathering all this

13 information I think is significantly reduced by

14 recognizing that we are talking about small horsepower

15 equipment that is now sold by the industry as an

16 integrated product. And I don't think we ought to be

17 talking about regulating pumps if we exclude this

18 product that may be small horsepower but it is sold in

19 very large numbers from the scope of this regulation.

20 MR. BROOKMAN: Al?

21 MR. HUBER: Are you referring to circulators

22 when you say that or are you referring to the split
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1 case when you say that?

2 MR. FERNSTROM: I am referring primarily to

3 circulators with the understanding that we mean

4 fractional horsepower 1/25th up to maybe two or three

5 horsepower that you might term a circulator in a

6 larger commercial building.

7 MR. BROOKMAN: Steve.

8 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Steve Rosenstock, EEI. And

9 again as we go through I think it might be helpful for

10 all parties if we either show it on the slide or write

11 it down somewhere so again we are seeing what we are

12 trying to look -- what we are trying to decide here.

13 MR. BROOKMAN: It is a good point. I can

14 start doing that. Yes.

15 MR. ROSENSTOCK: And then in the framework

16 document that was really nice in terms of some of this

17 DOE did a nice diagram where it said pumps sold alone

18 and then they have categories of pumps sold alone,

19 pumps sold -- it says with motor, it should say motor

20 or engine or turbine and then pumps sold with VSDs. So

21 it kind of shows -- it is a very nice diagram kind of

22 showing after you decide which types of motors, which
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1 kind of system are you going to be looking at. But

2 again unfortunately that spills over back into the

3 test procedure. I mean that is also again part of the

4 chicken and egg. But if there is a way to write some

5 of this down to see where there is agreement I'll say

6 among different parties versus where there is

7 difference that might also help in terms of the

8 process.

9 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay.

10 MR. ADIN: We are going to pull up a copy

11 of the framework document so that we can refer to some

12 of the things we are discussing right now. And

13 hopefully that way I will have some visuals and

14 specific items and tables we are talking about will be

15 --

16 MR. BROOKMAN: Alison can you pull them,

17 have you got them?

18 UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Jeremiah has got it on

19 his stick.

20 MR. BROOKMAN: Let me just interject that

21 this kind of direct exchange is very very fruitful and

22 positive. And keeping on with this will make this
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1 much easier.

2 MS. KOHL: This is Betsy Kohl from General

3 Counsel's office. I want go back to the threaded

4 discussion that we were having about the pump and the

5 motor so the department's legal position is that we

6 consider the pump similar to refrigerators and

7 dishwashers and other things that we regulate that

8 have motors in them. Yes it is inside a box but in

9 this case the pump and the motor are the pump. So

10 that is kind of where we are coming at and we wouldn't

11 necessarily when we develop a rule mandate motor

12 efficiency because we already do that. How you get to

13 an efficiency standard for the pump system is up to

14 you. But we consider the pump as defined, it is not

15 defined in the statute what a pump is, to include the

16 motor like a dishwasher or a refrigerator.

17 MR. BROOKMAN: So and that is for any pump

18 that they ship that might be included in the scope

19 whatever motor gets attached to it the pump

20 manufacturer is going to have to meet that efficiency

21 metric as described in the standard?

22 MS. KOHL: I think I hear what you are
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1 saying. We are not requiring that a pump be shipped

2 with a motor.

3 MR. BROOKMAN: Yes.

4 MS. KOHL: But if you are going to pair them

5 together it is the efficiency of the system that is

6 going to be the minimum standard.

7 MR. BROOKMAN: That is the Department's

8 current thinking.

9 MR. KOHL: Yes.

10 MR. BROOKMAN: Mark?

11 MR. HANDZEL: So we use motors that are

12 available in the industry that meet current DOE and

13 NEMA standards.

14 MS. KOHL: Right. Right.

15 MR. HANDZEL: So we are using compliant

16 motors.

17 MS. KOHL: Uh-huh.

18 MR. HANDZEL: So I mean it is tough for us to

19 be held accountable to -- we are doing what we can by

20 using those compliant motors so I mean I guess our end

21 of it is the pump efficiency that is what we are

22 responsible. That is what we manufacture. That is
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1 what we can control.

2 MS. KOHL: Uh-huh. Yes I mean if you are

3 just manufacturing the pump but as far as whatever

4 motor it is paired with there are all sorts of issues

5 that we are going to have --

6 MR. HANDZEL: Right. And it goes further

7 into our -- the extended product approach is obviously

8 not just the pump and the motor even. It is the

9 feedback what the system saying it needs and adjusting

10 the speed of the motor pump combination to match what

11 energy the system needs instead of over energizing

12 this whole system.

13 MR. FERNSTROM: So this is Gary Fernstrom.

14 Let's be clear about this. Where you sell an

15 integrated product --

16 MR. BROOKMAN: Which includes?

17 MR. FERNSTROM: A pump and a motor is what I

18 mean.

19 MR. BROOKMAN: Uh-huh.

20 MR. FERNSTROM: And it comes out of the

21 factory and goes to the distributor and comes out of

22 the warehouse as an integrated product I understand
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1 that you use a DOE compliant motor on that product.

2 However the energy efficiency of that product may be

3 expected to be higher than it currently is if a

4 sufficiently inexpensive better motor can be attached

5 to it. So the product you are making is a pump and

6 motor combination, and one of the ways to achieve a

7 better efficiency of that product is to utilize a

8 better motor. And that is not in my view outside the

9 scope of this rulemaking.

10 MR. BROOKMAN: And that would be more than

11 what Mark termed we purchase compliant motors.

12 MR. HANDZEL: That is correct.

13 MR. BROOKMAN: Steve Rosenstock?

14 MR. ROSENSTOCK: I am Steve Rosenstock, EEI.

15 A couple of follow up points. Again one of the key

16 decisions is what is a boundary of the pump. Now I

17 heard what DOE said. And to follow up with that if

18 the pump is sold with a steam turbine or gasoline

19 engine that is still considered regulated as well;

20 right. So that if depending on what we decide is a

21 boundary condition if a pump is integrated with a

22 driver regardless of what is powering the driver then
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1 that would be considered I'll say a pumping system.

2 MS. KOHL: How we would define the pump.

3 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Okay.

4 MR. ADIN: So in the broadest sense yes a

5 pump would be defined as potentially a product that

6 included something other than an electric motor, that

7 would be most likely outside the scope of what we'd be

8 setting standards for, but in the broadest sense, yes,

9 conceivably a pump would also be drive by an engine or

10 --

11 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Yes.

12 MR. ADIN: Right.

13 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Well and again it depends

14 on the type of pump and the application. There are a

15 lot of agricultural pumps that are driven by whatever

16 works best for them.

17 MR. POWERS: Well it isn't all motors

18 either. Right.

19 MR. ROSENSTOCK: There are engines and

20 turbines.

21 MR. POWERS: There is permanent magnet

22 technology today. There is all kinds of stuff that is
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1 going on out there. And what I am suggesting here is

2 you are tying the pump guys into a lot of other things

3 and those people aren't in the room. And I guess I

4 will go back to an analogy if you take a refrigerator,

5 I will take a pump plant, the refrigerator is the

6 condenser, it is the box, it is the thickness of the

7 insulation, it is the pump in there, it is the little

8 motor in there and the compressor, all this stuff as a

9 package. So now what you have asked us we are that

10 little compressor down there that little pump and

11 motor. We are not the refrigerator. You are saying

12 now let's talk to the pump plant in that box in that

13 refrigerator. So now what I am trying to get at is

14 you are now saying okay now we want to go back to the

15 refrigerator guys and say we want to fine tune that

16 motor and that pump in there and I am a little worried

17 about the process here.

18 MR. BROOKMAN: So it is appropriate that

19 Gary wishes to speak. So maybe you could be more

20 clear about -- I thought you were pretty clear about

21 your definition of integrated.

22 MR. FERNSTROM: Well this is Gary
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1 representing the California IOUs. I thought I was. If

2 the refrigerator manufacturer is selling a

3 refrigerator you are right it has those components in

4 it. When you sell a pump meeting the definition of an

5 integrated product which is a pump that has a motor on

6 it and comes from the factory that way the pump is the

7 pump and the motor. And the efficiency of that

8 product is not just the pump head efficiency it is the

9 efficiency of the pump head and the motor. And when

10 it comes to setting an efficiency regulation for that

11 product it seems to me unreasonable that you would say

12 well we are not responsible for the motor. That would

13 be like the refrigerator manufacturer saying I am not

14 responsible for the compressor. You sell the product

15 that is an integrated product and it is the efficiency

16 of that pump that we are concerned about. So you can

17 either make the pump head better. You can make the

18 motor better. And either one improves the efficiency

19 of that pump.

20 MR. BROOKMAN: Charlie?

21 MR. CAPPELLINO: Charlie Cappellino, ITT. I

22 think it would be worth exploring a bit more the
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1 concept of an integrated design because there are

2 products that are more integrated than others. So

3 some of the smaller products for example when you look

4 at them you kind of hold them in your hand and the

5 pump and the motor are essentially designed together

6 as a unit. But as you get larger in product like the

7 one that is on the screen there in blue they tend to

8 be designed more modular so you can basically put in a

9 piece and take out a piece. And the comment I wanted

10 to make because it is going to get down to how do you

11 measure things and measure things well. In the

12 configuration that is shown on the screen there what

13 we typically do is measure the pump separately because

14 technically it is very challenging to measure the

15 motor and the pump and everything together. You get

16 all kinds of crazy stuff around power factors and

17 measuring it is very challenging. So as an industry

18 we've typically separate that if you get into the

19 larger pieces of equipment. So I think your point is

20 a good one. But I think you might want to consider

21 where the integrated approach really applies and where

22 it doesn't. Because I think it will benefit all of us
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1 if we can sort that out a little bit.

2 MR. FERNSTROM: Okay.

3 MR. BROOKMAN: Create a list of what is in

4 and what is out.

5 MR. FERNSTROM: Well let me just respond. So

6 Gary, California IOUs. I totally agree with you. And

7 I would simply maintain that if the product is sold

8 with a pump and a motor we ought to be looking at both

9 of those things. And the horsepower range is

10 definitely a factor that influences whether you

11 consider it a single product or two separate products.

12 The larger horsepower the more likely you are going to

13 have two separate products.

14 MR. BROOKMAN: If I heard you correctly a

15 pump with a motor that is connected and shipped that

16 is an integrated product? Shipped as connected.

17 MR. ADIN: So maybe this is a point of

18 clarification. I mean prospectively we could write

19 standards that address each product case. I mean a

20 manufacturer that only makes and ships the hydraulic

21 portion of the pump could have a standard applicable

22 to that portion and completed products that are the
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1 pump and the motor -- I mean it doesn't necessarily

2 have to be limited just to configurations the

3 manufacturer has absolutely no control over.

4 MR. FERNSTROM: Well we couldn't address the

5 circumstances where the manufacturer has no control.

6 We can only address through the appliances regulations

7 products that are shipped -- that are built --

8 designed, built, manufactured, shipped as integrated

9 products. And the legal opinion I just heard was that

10 is a pump and that is a product that ought to be

11 within the scope.

12 MR. ADIN: Yes. I think that is right. I

13 didn't mean to cause confusion with that statement. I

14 think it is important to recognize that you could --

15 we could do this any one of those ways, that it is

16 possible and in fact appropriate to consider and not

17 just stopping at the motor necessarily but all the way

18 to the drive as well so if it has a variable speed

19 drive and the pump is intended to be used in that

20 manner that prospectively is within the scope.

21 MR. FERNSTROM: However I agree with HI that

22 with the current state of the test procedure and our
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1 understanding of applications it may be a stretch to

2 include the drive and the way the motor is actually

3 used based on its application and the system to which

4 it is applied. However that is the direction I think

5 we collectively think we want to go with that

6 opportunity.

7 MR. BROOKMAN: Steve, thanks for being

8 patient. Steve.

9 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Sure. Steve Rosenstock,

10 EEI. And again you look at that either that great

11 diagram right there and it really says -- kind of

12 shows the possible dilemma. There are certain pumps

13 that are going to be shipped just by themselves as a

14 hydraulic unit to be driven by engine, motor, or

15 turbine, the large ones especially. The pump

16 manufacturers are just shipping out the hydraulic

17 system you could do a metric just for that hydraulic

18 system, so many feet of head per whatever -- however

19 you are defining water out over water in or some sort

20 of I'll say process metric just purely based on the

21 pumping.

22 MR. BROOKMAN: Basic efficiency.
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1 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Basic pump efficiency as a

2 process efficiency that is under that scope. Then you

3 go to the pump sold with the motor or engine or

4 turbine as a combined unit like a circulator pump that

5 is like well you could do a separate standard for I

6 will say an integrated unit as part again depending on

7 how you decide the scope. Then there is option three

8 you say well we are going to do all controls, I don't

9 want to say VSD because there could be control X or

10 control Y, DOE in my mind shouldn't pick technologies

11 because there could be a whole bunch of different

12 types of controls that could be added to the motor

13 that there could be a two-speed not variable speed. In

14 some applications all you are required to do under

15 ASHRAE building codes is just a two speed motor. That

16 is not variable speed. It is high or low speed. So

17 it is not variable speed. So again it depends on how

18 you define it. And what you are saying is you want to

19 add a controller onto it that is option three for both

20 the customer and the manufacturer. But again that

21 gets into a whole bunch of different issues because

22 that gets into well what is a loading pattern and do
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1 you need a different test procedure because a variable

2 speed drive in those applications where the load on

3 the motor is not 100 percent. So you are saving the

4 energy. So again that spills over into the test

5 procedure as well.

6 MR. BROOKMAN: So there is something

7 fundamental here it seems, maybe I missed this, I was

8 fiddling with the microphones up here. It seemed like

9 Gary's formulation of integrated is based on the

10 manufacturer's control over.

11 MR. FERNSTROM: My formulation of integrated

12 is based on the way the manufacturer supplies the

13 product. So if they supply a pump and a motor that is

14 that. If they supply a pump and a motor with an

15 integrated drive or control that regulates how the

16 drive operates whether it is actually attached to the

17 motor or separate but intended to be sold with it then

18 that would be the product. And to give Steve some

19 peace of mind since he's concerned that the electric

20 industry not be discriminated against with some rule

21 that may come out here, these sorts of products

22 typically only exist up to maybe 25 horsepower at the
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1 most now. And the bulk of them are much smaller than

2 that. And we are not finding these products sold with

3 engines or steam turbines in the one, two, three

4 horsepower range. So there isn't really an issue with

5 whether the drive is a motor or some other device

6 producing mechanical energy to turn the pump.

7 MR. BROOKMAN: One thing that is different

8 about these negotiations is DOE has the potential to

9 participate in ways they don't always do in the

10 standard rule making process. So is what Gary

11 described, is that your thinking? Is that consistent

12 with your current thinking about how --

13 MR. ADIN: As far as how you define what

14 constitutes a covered product?

15 MR. BROOKMAN: Or integrated is what we are

16 dealing with here first, integrated?

17 MR. FERNSTROM: Well how we define a pump

18 and I just heard the legal opinion which was pump is

19 pump head if that is the way it is sold and if it is

20 sold with motor attached that is the pump.

21 MR. ADIN: Well I don't know that I

22 necessarily meant to construe it that way. I think it
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1 is more that is an option is to define it that way.

2 But we could define a pump as including everything all

3 the way up to the drive, like the motor and the drive.

4 And so it is not -- I wasn't even getting into this

5 issue really. I made this confusing by talking about

6 how it is sold. But our view anyway is that we could

7 go that far. And I don't think we have quite gotten

8 to the point where we've agreed on what that is going

9 to be yet. But yes the covered product would be

10 whatever we decide the standard is applicable to and

11 that may very well be the pump plus the motor.

12 MR. FERNSTROM: Let me restate this just to

13 make sure I understand your position. By definition

14 the pump is the way I described it. It is either the

15 pump head or the pump and the motor. What DOE chooses

16 to regulate and include in the scope is still an open

17 issue. It isn't necessarily every pump. We may not

18 cover all commercial/industrial pumps specifically

19 those that consist of a pump and motor.

20 MR. BROOKMAN: Let's go Bob.

21 MR. BARBOUR: Bob Barbour with TACO. I

22 would like to comment a little bit about the inclusion
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1 of circulators because today TACO for example probably

2 has, I can ask around this room, but in the domestic

3 market we are probably 50 to 60 percent of the

4 domestically supplied circulators that are provided in

5 North America. And as of today there is no what I

6 would consider a fair and equitable test standard for

7 comparing circulators between manufacturers. For

8 example the TACO circulator utilizes or is really

9 designed to operate under a -- we were the first who

10 had a delta T control mechanism whereas some others

11 are designed to operate under a delta P mechanism.

12 Some of the circulators that are on the market today

13 utilize a variable speed drive control. It does not

14 necessarily focus in directly on the temperature

15 requirements of the particular occupancy in which

16 those are being used. And the vast majority of the

17 circulators which for example we contribute to the

18 marketplace do not end up in commercial or industrial

19 applications. They actually end up in homes.

20 And I think part of what this group needs to

21 understand is the applications of circulators is

22 different between the delta T and a delta P approach.
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1 The efficiency of the overall system is impacted by

2 which method you choose to go forward with and

3 unfortunately there is really I don't believe and

4 maybe Alison can comment on this but I don't believe

5 that the Navigant survey necessarily gathered a lot of

6 information on circulators from the manufacturers.

7 MS. WILLIAMS: Alison Williams. We

8 requested circulator data in the manufacturer

9 interview guide. And we receive it from some

10 manufacturers. So there is some but not comprehensive

11 market data.

12 MR. BROOKMAN: So it seems then this last

13 discussion we went to a specific pump type and I was

14 trying to keep it kind of a conceptual level because I

15 thought that would be useful. But maybe we are ready

16 to dive deeper.

17 MR. FERNSTROM: Well, can I respond to Bob?

18 MR. BROOKMAN: Gary please.

19 MR. FERNSTROM: Thank you for speaking with

20 us privately and helping us to understand these issues

21 you point out and I don't disagree with a lot of what

22 you said.
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1 However there are three levels of refinement

2 of product here. There is the pump head; the pump and

3 the motor; the pump, the motor and the drive, maybe

4 there are four, the pump, the motor, the drive and

5 some system related control that determines how the

6 pump motor runs, what speed it runs at, when it turns

7 on and off and so on. And Bob is alluding to the

8 control algorithm which is very important in

9 determining energy use and application whether it is

10 temperature sensing, pressure sensing, whatever. And

11 my discussion here I am just going as far as the pump

12 and the motor. So regardless of how you control it

13 there is a certain amount of water power that comes

14 out of the pump and a certain amount of electrical

15 power that goes into it. And that's the essence of

16 what I am interested in when it comes to these smaller

17 horsepower pumps.

18 MR. BROOKMAN: Go ahead Lucas.

19 MR. ADIN: Yes I just wanted to step

20 backwards a little bit and talk generally about we

21 have been using the term scope for and maybe this is

22 more my fault in some of the comments I made but it
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1 kind of in a sense has two different meanings. There

2 is scope generally as far as what EPCA authorizes DOE

3 to write standards for, right, and that comes down to

4 what DOE views as the definition of the term "pump" as

5 written in the statute. So that is really what we

6 were commenting on. We are saying we view that term

7 to mean potentially inclusive of all these

8 combinations. So it could go all the way out to that

9 drive.

10 The scope that we are talking about in this

11 working group is: what are we actually going to set

12 standards for? So we have already decided DOE's view

13 is that potentially we could write standards for any

14 of these things really at any point. It could be in

15 the future, whatever. But for now for the purposes of

16 these discussions we are talking scope in terms of

17 what are we going to do here. And I am not sure that

18 is clear.

19 MR. FERNSTROM: And I understood that based

20 on your last comment. So kind of regardless of the

21 definition the issue here is what is and is not going

22 to be considered.
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1 MR. ADIN: For the purposes of writing

2 proposed standards.

3 MR. FERNSTROM: Yes. Yes.

4 MR. ADIN: Correct. Yes.

5 MR. BROOKMAN: Steve. Thank you.

6 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Steve Rosenstock, EEI. I

7 think that this group can use the information and

8 decide about the diagram is nice. Which one or ones

9 we want to cover as part of our negotiation and our

10 dialogue. If our group decides, it might not, to say

11 only pumps sold alone, we might recommend that, it

12 could be rejected. But our group could say we think

13 to get consensus we do pumps sold alone, we get

14 consensus and that standard can be forwarded to the

15 ASRAC. Or we say we can do pump, motor, engine and

16 turbine to the larger ones and do that and the stand

17 alone. Or just the pump integrated package. So we

18 have the option of what we are going to -- this has

19 just been in a framework but our group has the option

20 to decide which one or ones of these I will just say

21 these pumping system we are going to recommend to the

22 ASRAC and then that they are going to recommend to
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1 DOE.

2 MR. FERNSTROM: So this is Gary from PGE, or

3 from California IOU's. We're not making a

4 recommendation yet. We just want to make sure that we

5 see the data to make a reasonable judgment about

6 whether this important or not.

7 MR. BROOKMAN: And Gary, expand on that, or

8 someone expand on that. When you see the data, what

9 will you be looking for? Or what will be the -- guide

10 your thought process going forward?

11 MR. FERNSTROM: I think there are several

12 things. One would be the number of products sold of

13 this circulator type, and various horsepower ranges.

14 One would be the estimated hours of usage,

15 which would allow you to calculate the energy

16 consumption associated with it, and one would be the

17 market that they go into, whether it's the residential

18 market, the commercial market, some combination of the

19 two.

20 So if we don't have sales data, some rough

21 information on where they go in the load profile, we

22 won't be able to calculate the energy use to determine
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1 whether it's significant, and we would relate that to

2 the cost of, perhaps, improving these products in some

3 way to determine whether or not it's cost effective.

4 MR. BROOKMAN: Charlie? Chuck?

5 MR. POWERS: Yeah, I think it's interesting

6 what is being brought up, but under the EU directive,

7 right, and they did a lot of studies, I've got some

8 papers here that we were a part of in helping.

9 They also, which I think would be important,

10 is look a look at the terawatt, which is the power

11 plan for over a ten year period, or an annual period,

12 or whatever, and you don't want to do it just for one

13 year, you want to say what is the life cycle of the

14 known (phonetic) average, right? Because replacement

15 -- the small circulators you'd replace it, you

16 wouldn't put a part in it, so to speak, right?

17 They evaluated all that and I think a lot of

18 factors came out, one of which was how you're going to

19 measure the efficiency on some of these small

20 fractional circulators. Because in the bigger pump

21 world, so to speak, it's maximum diameter, there's a

22 defined range plus or minus, so that became a very
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1 difficult thing to be able to evaluate, if you had to

2 combine pump and motor.

3 They also found that the variations between

4 motors was quite extensive. And it's -- they got to a

5 point it became a little bit more impractical in a lot

6 of areas, right? So you know, there's variations to

7 it, and I think it's a good discussion. But I think

8 we have to understand what goes into this, and

9 everything, from those life-cycle, to whatever, and

10 again, the extended package.

11 MR. FERNSTROM: So this is --

12 MR. BROOKMAN: Let's go to Bob next.

13 MR. FERNSTROM: Okay.

14 MR. BARBOUR: I'm just trying to get a

15 little clarification. It's Bob Barbour again. When

16 you're talking about the European standards you're

17 talking about their application, where they estimated,

18 I believe it was an average of around 5,000 hours per

19 year of operation, and their standards were basically

20 testing with the Delta P pump, with the variable speed

21 that basically went from 100 percent flow at maybe ten

22 foot a head down to zero flow at half the head, and
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1 they operated along sloped curve when necessary in the

2 variable speed mode. But those are -- that's actually

3 being used in an entirely different heating system

4 than you have in the United States.

5 MR. POWERS: Right. And they got it --

6 MR. BARBOUR: You can't really be using that

7 particular standard in the United States when you

8 apply the pumps so much differently, and I just think

9 that's very important for everyone in this room to

10 understand.

11 MR. BROOKMAN: They got into the various

12 applications, to your point too, they broke down the

13 different categories. Gary?

14 MR. FERNSTROM: So Gary Fernstrom, again,

15 California IOU's. I wasn't expressing an opinion on

16 the applicability of the European test standard to the

17 American market, one way or the other. I was simply

18 saying we ought to be looking at the performance of

19 these products, and in order to do that we need to

20 have some market information. DOE has a minimum

21 threshold for the annual energy use of products which

22 they consider worthy of being regulated.
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1 It isn't an issue of let's look at the big

2 things and forget the small ones. If any product

3 meets that minimum threshold and the energy saving is

4 cost effective, and those products are sold in large

5 numbers, then it may be a product worth looking at the

6 in regulations. I'm just saying as a negotiating

7 position we think those products ought to be looked

8 at.

9 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Okay. Yes, Mark?

10 MR. HANDZEL: I just want to comment, Mark

11 Handzel again from Xylem, that the Hydraulic Institute

12 letters that was -- that's part of the public record

13 we were able to collect some market data on

14 circulators because it's a very small number of

15 manufacturers, it's not public information and not a

16 lot of information that we wanted to share, but we did

17 provide in that letter an estimated energy usage for a

18 year's worth of circulators.

19 We use that as a comparison to the lot that

20 Al described and said, you know, our preference is to

21 focus on these pumps because they use so much more

22 power. So it's not everything Gary's looking for, but
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1 it's -- there is some information that's in the public

2 record already that was provided by the Hydraulic

3 Institute.

4 MR. BROOKMAN: Bob?

5 MR. BARBOUR: This is Bob Barbour again. One

6 of our positions at TACO, as a company, is developing

7 higher efficiency pumps. We recognize the need for an

8 ECM product down the road, and -- but one of our

9 things is we feel that the circulator product, as I'm

10 talking the small, really fractional horsepower, not

11 even half horsepower but beneath, that those products

12 should really be considered under a separate

13 rulemaking.

14 But we think they should be considered,

15 mainly because there is no test standard today to be

16 able to do the comparative between the various

17 manufacturers. A fair test standard.

18 MR. FERNSTROM: Okay. Bob, I'll make you an

19 offer, and the offer is if a decision is made not to

20 include those products in the DOE review, we'll work

21 with the California Energy Commission to develop a

22 regulation for those products. It will probably be
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1 tougher than what DOE would do, and it would certainly

2 be sooner.

3 MR. BARBOUR: What's the deal for him?

4 MR. BROOKMAN: Was that an offer? I don't

5 think that was an offer.

6 MR. BARBOUR: This is Bob Barbour, that

7 doesn't quite come across as an offer (simultaneous

8 speaking).

9 MR. HANDZEL: He said information. That was

10 a California offer.

11 MR. HUBER: Yeah, it's California law. This

12 is Al Huber. One of the things that we tried to do

13 when we provided our scope originally was try to align

14 ourselves with the EU's Lot Eleven. Because we're all

15 -- most of us are manufacturing in both -- for both

16 areas. And if we could keep them as similar, or as

17 close as possible, which is also -- the current

18 administration has a desire to try to rationalize

19 these -- the different things, and that's the reason

20 that we offered that. That's one reason. The other

21 reason is there's a lot of data available for it,

22 which we have provided.
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1 The other thing I might mention is that the

2 EU has regulated circulators, but circulators are a

3 huge market in Europe where they use a lot of hydronic

4 heating, and we don't use that much here in the United

5 States, and that's the reason we left it out.

6 The other reason is they did it under a

7 separate rulemaking, and we -- I agree with Bob that

8 if you want to do circulators, you ought to do them

9 under a separate regulation.

10 MR. BROOKMAN: What is the advantage of

11 doing them under a separate regulation?

12 MR. HUBER: First of all, one of the issues

13 is that they need to be -- because they're going to go

14 to residential customers, and you're going to need to

15 label it differently, much like you do an appliance

16 today. So that a customer can look at that and say,

17 oh you know, that's what I need to buy.

18 Whereas we're selling more to commercial

19 people, commercial and industrial people who are

20 somewhat educated in the market, and they know what

21 they want to buy, or they have a -- or we can explain

22 efficiency to them, or we can explain head, flow, and
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1 the characteristics that they need for their

2 application.

3 In the case of a consumer he's just trying

4 to operate his heating system. He doesn't know -- and

5 he can go buy a, you know, a green, a red, or a color

6 coded, or something else, and that's one reason.

7 The other reason is there is no -- currently

8 there is no standard published anywhere on testing of

9 circulators, except for, I guess, the EU must have

10 some test standard. But in the United States we have

11 none, and we're -- the HI is starting to embark on

12 writing a test standard, but we're probably several

13 years away from having that. However, we're not that

14 far from having what we need for the scope that we

15 have. Which we already have a test standard but we're

16 revising it along with our cooperation with Navigant.

17 So it could be used for this proceeding.

18 MR. FERNSTROM: So, Al, this is Gary again.

19 We don't have a lot of hydronic heating in California.

20 Over half the circulator pumps sold in California go

21 to commercial applications. So, at least in our view,

22 this isn't a product that's, in our area anyway,
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1 that's principally skewed to the residential market.

2 Secondly, we're beginning to have a

3 discussion about issues that we have no data to

4 support. So, you know, I just made a statement; I

5 haven't provided the numbers, but is -- as we go

6 through this process I will be providing numbers, and

7 energy efficiency performance test results of these

8 products.

9 But the point I want to make now is I think

10 DOE is -- would be well served by considering these

11 products in the discussion, not summarily discussing

12 them before we have the requisite information to make

13 good decisions.

14 MR. BROOKMAN: Greg was next and then to

15 Lucas.

16 MR. CASE: My only comment was we also do

17 not have a definition of a circulator yet. It's in

18 process through the Hydraulic Institute, but there is

19 not right now a document you can point to that says

20 that's a circulator.

21 MR. FERNSTROM: That just amazes me. Here's

22 this product that's sold in very large numbers, and
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1 one of the difficulties in addressing energy

2 efficiency for performance standard for it, is even

3 though it's been around forever, and there are lots of

4 them, we don't even a definition.

5 MR. BROOKMAN: Lucas?

6 MR. ADIN: So just a -- maybe a question

7 generally, I guess on everything I've heard here. I

8 mean, it sounds like what the group is saying, at

9 least -- maybe I'm looking more at Gary, since it

10 seems to be -- you're interested in looking closely at

11 these -- but it seems like we're at a state where it's

12 premature to really make any kind of decisions

13 respecting coverage of circulators at this stage. You

14 need to see more -- and I think, frankly, DOE would

15 need to see more too.

16 I mean, our view -- certainly at the

17 framework stage was that -- well, in the most general

18 terms these are a subset, and a relatively small

19 subset of the broad scope of things that we're

20 considering covering through this rule making anyway.

21 I mean, we're focusing on Lot 11, starting with that,

22 so at a minimum that and then expending potentially,
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1 if warranted, to other things, and circulators are

2 just a small piece of that. So --

3 MR. FERNSTROM: Well, I absolutely agree,

4 we're lacking the information at this point to make an

5 educated decision. I want to get it, the information

6 that is. I don't know that I'd say that circulator

7 pumps are just a small piece.

8 I think their energy use may be significant,

9 and I think that the opportunity they present, in

10 terms of their cost effectiveness, that is the energy

11 savings we can get for the investment, may be

12 significant. It may be more significant than what we

13 can get with some of the majors that produce more

14 savings. So I think we ought to look at it.

15 MR. BROOKMAN: So I have a question. Alison,

16 you said that you had some data on circulator pumps.

17 Do you -- does DOE know -- do the contractors know how

18 they're going to get more data, if more data could be

19 made available?

20 MS. WILLIAMS: The answer is no, and we

21 currently also -- I think we don't have data from

22 enough manufacturers to actually release it an
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1 aggregated form either. So yeah, we are still trying

2 to work on that circulator data issue.

3 MR. BROOKMAN: I see. Okay. Tom Eckman?

4 MR. ECKMAN: Yeah, I think there's another

5 reason we're interested is because circulator pumps

6 tend to be pretty commoditized, and they're very

7 difficult to get at from an energy efficiency program

8 perspective, because they get built into the building

9 and they're speced pretty much on the basis of cost,

10 first cost.

11 So from a -- they're an admirable target

12 from the standpoint of standards and codes for that

13 reason, because commodities are the -- are -- they're

14 standardized products, they're offered catalog level,

15 and it's -- that's what standards really do a good job

16 of.

17 They don't do a very good job of custom

18 products at the higher end, big things that are one19 offers, or limited production. You know, that's in

20 our mind a better way to attack the energy efficiency

21 of this product than trying to get it in through some

22 other mechanism.
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1 There may be other mechanisms, but in the

2 end the game is probably some sort of code or standard

3 regulation that sets a minimum level of efficiency

4 that's required that everybody's got to meet so that

5 we get a bump up in the efficiency of this commodity.

6 Otherwise it's pretty much going to be left to the

7 suppliers and the specs, spec writers, and they will

8 write something that gets valued engineered at the

9 lowest cost.

10 MR. BROOKMAN: Gary?

11 MR. FERNSTROM: And Gary Fernstrom. So just

12 one more quick point; this is sort of an editorial

13 point, but in California we're looking at all new

14 homes being zero net energy by 2020, and I realize

15 this is a commercial industrial rule making, but I'd

16 like allude to the residential application for just a

17 moment.

18 The question is what are we going to do with

19 space heating systems in order to reduce their energy

20 use, such that we can get to zero net energy by 2020?

21 Some suggestions are geothermal heat pumps, and

22 geothermal heat pumps every one of them uses a
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1 circulator pump to circulate fluids.

2 Another suggestion is combined space heating

3 and water heating. Because of better insulation the

4 heating loads are getting to be smaller and smaller,

5 and it may be more efficient, it's likely to be more

6 efficient, to use the hot water heater as a dual

7 purpose device for space heating and water heating. In

8 that case you would have a circulator pump driving the

9 hot water coil in the air handler of the home.

10 So this is a product where we see the

11 application, the opportunity improving, and sales

12 increasing, and efficiency of these products is

13 important. But as I said, over half the market is

14 commercial.

15 MR. BROOKMAN: Steve?

16 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Steve Rosenstock, EEI. I

17 think this has been a really good discussion, but may

18 be it might help -- again, we've got a -- gotten into

19 the weeds.

20 We started at the high level, now we've

21 gotten into the weeds and maybe, possibly, it's

22 getting back to that starting point, is to kind of do
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1 that funnel approach of a high level, you know, first

2 -- you know, the first issue is clean water versus

3 other fluids. Is there -- maybe that -- maybe a way

4 to start with, I'll say the high level agreements, and

5 then work our way back down to some of these very

6 critical issues. But, you know, again, it might be --

7 there might be a way to get, I'll say, a consensus

8 among certain key issues as a starting point.

9 You know, we could talk about circulator

10 pumps for the next 27 hours probably, but maybe we go

11 back up to the 50,000 foot level, there might be some

12 agreements that might be able to start the process

13 again.

14 MR. BROOKMAN: Go ahead.

15 MR. ADIN: Just real quick, maybe just to

16 even say a little bit more about that. I'm glad you

17 brought that up, Steve, because it -- ultimately what

18 we're trying to get to, I think, you know, where I

19 started at the beginning, is what do we need to know

20 to figure out whether our timeline is appropriate, you

21 know, at least as far as the discussion we're going to

22 have before the end of the day tomorrow.
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1 You know, what -- so you know, we could talk

2 about all these things about circulators and all the

3 additional data we want to gather, and those things we

4 want to look at, but that's really going beyond

5 tomorrow.

6 So you know, it seems like the broader scope

7 issue is that -- I don't know if the clean water

8 aspect, and things like that, are vital but maybe the

9 question at the moment is what do we all need to know

10 at a minimum regarding the potential scope of this

11 rule, even if we don't hash out all the exact details

12 of the classes that we'll cover, and those things,

13 with standards. What do we need to know, at least to

14 know how much analysis we need to do to determine what

15 we can produce by early next summer?

16 MR. BROOKMAN: The potential scope so that

17 we know what timeframe this --

18 MR. ADIN: Yeah -- right.

19 MR. BROOKMAN: Right.

20 MR. ADIN: Exactly.

21 MR. BROOKMAN: Mark?

22 MR. HANDZEL: Mark Handzel from Xylem. And
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1 I think that's a great point, and I think, you know,

2 one of the things I think the Hydraulic Institute was

3 trying to make clear was that by going in parallel

4 with a Lot 11 approach that we felt, you know, that

5 this was more doable for us.

6 I think we can all comment further on that,

7 whether we agree with that, but I think -- you know,

8 Tom, I just want to address one thing you said, you

9 know, and you kind of implied that we're directing the

10 group toward pumps that could possibly be one-off and

11 --

12 MR. ECKMAN: No, I just --

13 MR. HANDZEL: Okay. Because I just want to

14 say --

15 MR. ECKMAN: Compared to the other end of

16 the spectrum, but you know, I'm pretty certain that

17 these are high volume --

18 MR. HANDZEL: Yeah. Right.

19 MR. ECKMAN: -- across the board.

20 MR. HANDZEL: And these are commercial

21 targeted products that are high volume products that

22 we put into commercial buildings all over North
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1 America, you know, and project a huge potential energy

2 savings, you know, with regulation.

3 You know, so -- you know, I think -- you

4 know, the timeline that DOE wanting to do something

5 with the timeline that we've been shown today, I think

6 the best opportunity is what we would define as -- you

7 know, what Al read was really our description of Lot

8 11.

9 MR. ADIN: Right. So that gets the issue of

10 pump configurations, but the other part of this I

11 don't think we've completely addressed yet, is the

12 aspect, you know, of the -- whether it includes the

13 motor and the drive.

14 So that -- I think in our view anyway,

15 that's a much more fundamental aspect, that

16 potentially expands the scope of analysis that we need

17 to perform and the amount of data, additional data we

18 need to gather --

19 MR. HANDZEL: Lucas, I assume you know that

20 in Europe, you know, I think Lot 29 is the variable

21 speed -- you know, it's more the system side of it

22 where you look at what we call the extended product
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1 approach.

2 MR. ADIN: Okay.

3 MR. HANDZEL: So it's a -- and I don't --

4 I'm going off the top of my head but I think that's

5 like a 2015 implementation in Europe.

6 MR. ADIN: Okay. Right.

7 MR. HANDZEL: So obviously they chose to

8 break that up, you know, so that it was in manageable

9 chunks, and I think that's vital for the

10 manufacturers.

11 MR. ADIN: That's a helpful distinction,

12 thanks. I -- the lot numbers I just --

13 MR. HANDZEL: I'll give you an article.

14 MR. ADIN: Right. That would helpful.

15 MR. HANDZEL: That explains it.

16 MR. BROOKMAN: Send it to everyone. So what

17 else might we articulate now that helps us to think

18 about this scope, predict the scope, so that we can

19 predict a timeline? Steve?

20 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Steve Rosenstock, EEI.

21 Yeah, I alluded to it earlier, and Gary had commented

22 on it, but especially for the larger size pumping
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1 systems. If we're going to be talking about

2 integrated packages, pumps sold with a driver, in my

3 view, and EEI's been very consistent, we prefer that

4 new standard to be fuel and market neutral.

5 There are applications where electric motor

6 is competing with steam turbines and gas engines,

7 whether they're gasoline or propane engines.

8 We would prefer that, if you're going with

9 pumps sold with driver -- I want to say energy driver,

10 to be fuel neutral, that also such drivers be covered

11 under any such standard if that's the consensus of the

12 group.

13 Again, we would -- we'd like the standard to

14 be fuel neutral because you do one product and you

15 ignore the other products, you're -- you could be

16 shifting markets just by the standard.

17 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Thank you. Doug?

18 MR. POTTS: This is probably a question or a

19 comment maybe for the manufacturers in the room, to --

20 I think it might be a little too simplistic to say

21 pump and driver, or pump and motor, that definition

22 kind of varies.
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1 So for example, there are -- I'm thinking

2 more the commodity-type pump systems where your only

3 option is to buy to the pump and motor combination

4 together. And I'm thinking that's probably the

5 smaller pumps. Whereas if I'm buying a 200 horsepower

6 split case horizontal pump, I'm getting that from --

7 you know, one of these guys, they're going out to a GE

8 or a U.S. Motors, they're getting a motor that is, you

9 know, most -- I guess the -- you know, premium

10 efficiency, it's already a regulated efficiency motor,

11 they're buying that motor and then they're -- they're

12 simply putting it on it a common baseplate, tying it

13 together.

14 I think that's a situation where they have

15 less control over, sort of that package, as opposed to

16 the commodity-type things. Do you guys agree with

17 that distinction?

18 MR. HANDZEL: Mark Handzel from Xylem.

19 Absolutely. That's the distinction I was trying to

20 make earlier, that you know, we don't make those

21 motors.

22 MR. POTTS: Right.
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1 MR. HANDZEL: We buy them from other

2 manufacturers to -- so they're already a regulated

3 product and -- you know, certainly there are going to

4 be instances, and we've talked about this before,

5 where we don't even provide the motor. You could --

6 MR. POTTS: Right.

7 MR. HANDZEL: -- reuse your old motor, you

8 know, a distributor or a contractor could buy a motor.

9 So I mean, that's where we don't necessarily have 100

10 percent control of that situation.

11 MR. BROOKMAN: Greg, go ahead.

12 MR. CASE: Greg Case, Hydraulic Institute.

13 The other part of that, and Chuck spoke to it earlier,

14 is a lot of times on those projects you're told what

15 motor you're going to use. You're told you're going

16 to use this vendor. So you have absolutely no control

17 over what motor you've going to put on that baseplate.

18 So the customer in his specifications specifies a

19 certain motor vendor.

20 MR. BROOKMAN: Charlie?

21 MR. CAPPELLINO: Charlie Cappellino, ITT.

22 Just to maybe clarify a point. So if you look at the
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1 diagram on the screen there, row number one basically

2 shows the three different configurations that we're

3 talking about, but in each case the pump is circled.

4 Right?

5 So I think what the pump manufacturers would

6 say is, look, we're willing to guarantee efficiency in

7 each of those three cases, but it would be just for

8 the pump itself. So I don't know if you're getting

9 that -- in other words, we guarantee efficiency in any

10 one of those configurations, but for the pump itself,

11 not the system. Not as opposed to down in row three,

12 that's -- row three's more challenging. Is that a

13 clear point. I don't if that's --

14 MR. FERNSTROM: So Gary Fernstrom,

15 California IOU's. Yes, you were very clear. I would

16 say, what happens if I go down to Grainger and buy a

17 two horsepower pump manufactured by one of you and it

18 has a SKU number on it, and that's my choice.

19 I -- neither you -- well, you have a choice,

20 but I have no choice in the motor. I'm just buying a

21 product and there it is, and that's what I get, and

22 for you to tell me that you're only concerned about
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1 the pump head for that product seems incomplete.

2 MR. BROOKMAN: Yes. Al?

3 MR. HUBER: Gary, motors are already

4 regulated in this country, and you know, we have to

5 provide -- they're not even manufactured up to a

6 certain level of efficiency. They can't even ship

7 them to us. So that's generally not an issue. The

8 only option you got for better efficiency is a premium

9 efficiency.

10 So what you could do, I guess if that's what

11 you wanted to do, was write a regulation that said

12 with a pump you got to have a premium efficient motor,

13 and then therefore you would get one.

14 MR. ECKMAN: Well, whether we write that

15 regulation or not, in my perspective, is we determine

16 whether that's a cost effective drivetrain and --

17 combination with motor, and whatever other controls we

18 have there, and if it is that's maximum efficiency

19 that's economically feasible for consumers. It

20 satisfies the DOE regulation.

21 That's what we're -- you know, when we go

22 through standard rulemaking, that's what we ask the
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1 question. Did it do that?

2 MR. HUMBER: Right.

3 MR. ECKMAN: Without putting that in front

4 of us, we don't get to discuss that. So what Gary and

5 I have been talking about is putting that in front of

6 us so we can discuss that to see whether or not that's

7 a legitimate endpoint. If it's not, it's not. I'm

8 good with that too, either way.

9 It may not be justified, but if it is, I

10 want to be able to look at it, then we can have a

11 discussion on whether that's -- the manufacturing

12 impact of that is significant on your end of the

13 scale. Because that's another feature in the seven

14 points we've got to talk about.

15 MR. HUBER: That's true and I think one of

16 the things -- our biggest problem right now is that

17 Navigant just does not have the data to us, and if

18 you're going to try to hit May, how long can you wait

19 for this data?

20 MR. FERNSTROM: Gary, California IOU's.

21 You're right Navigant told us they didn't have all the

22 data. Where does it come from? How come they don't
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1 have it? It comes from you. Did you supply it?

2 MR. BROOKMAN: Alison --

3 MR. HUBER: And the answer to that question

4 is Patterson Pump supplied it.

5 MR. BROOKMAN: Alison, you want to elaborate

6 on data or is there nothing more to say at this point?

7 You could say there's nothing more to say at this

8 point.

9 MS. WILLIAMS: So on the circulators, I

10 guess, I don't really --

11 MR. BROOKMAN: We're talking about more than

12 circulators.

13 MS. WILLIAMS: Right. So that's what I was

14 going to elaborate on. So this -- on circulators I've

15 already said what we have, and we're still working on

16 it. There's -- you know, no census data, or anything,

17 for circulators. So it's a little limited.

18 But I think in terms of data for other

19 decisions about pumps with motors, and controls we may

20 have some -- you know, we requested shipments data for

21 percentage of pumps sold with motors and controls

22 also, and we do have some of that data but it's
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1 limited.

2 So there is, you know, sort of a broader

3 scope of data that we haven't really talked about that

4 we can also review for this.

5 MR. BROOKMAN: Well, what about Lot 11 as a

6 big grouping, how --

7 MS. WILLIAMS: Yeah, I mean, so in the

8 manufacturer interviews we requested data for, I

9 think, ten or eleven pump types, and you know, within

10 all of those we requested data by how they're shipped,

11 and different kinds of things. Some manufacturers

12 only provided us data for HI's proposed scope, but

13 others provided us data for more products.

14 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay.

15 MS. WILLIAMS: So we do have an array of

16 data available and circulators is probably the most

17 limited that we have.

18 MR. BROOKMAN: Louis, I think I saw you

19 next.

20 MR. STARR: This is probably more a question

21 for the Department of Energy. You know, if you're

22 trying to save energy the more things you regulate in
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1 the picture, the more energy you save and obviously

2 it's harder to get at that.

3 I think maybe what Gary and some of the

4 other advocates are suggesting is is maybe limiting a

5 pump motor combination in one particular class that

6 can be done easily. If you're able to do that in this

7 first regulation, maybe later down on the road as we

8 get more data there would be opportunities to broaden

9 that scope.

10 So the idea would be to mainly focus on

11 motors, or on pumps now, but maybe have one or two

12 products that you could limit by horsepower, and maybe

13 some duty points to be a pump and motor, and just

14 focus on that very small subclass, and then later down

15 the road open up that subclass.

16 Would that be something that Department of

17 Energy is interested in, or do they want to do --

18 what's the next lot down? They're trying to do 11 and

19 15, or both lots, or would that approach work?

20 MR. ADIN: So I'll preface my answer with

21 saying that I think in some respects it's a little too

22 early to say, because there are a lot of things that
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1 it seems like we still need to know about the market

2 and --

3 MR. STARR: They have it on circulators

4 except for --

5 MR. ADIN: Right.

6 MR. STARR: -- (simultaneous speaking)

7 polish it up a little. The rest of the stuff they

8 don't have --

9 MR. BROOKMAN: No, she doesn't have --

10 MR. ADIN: I think it's the other way around

11 -- yeah.

12 MR. HANDZEL: If I could just clarify, Doug?

13 MR. BROOKMAN: Yes, Mark.

14 MR. HANDZEL: They asked us for primarily

15 focusing on the descriptions that Al read for those

16 categories and some others, and all -- so most of us

17 who were interviewed provided that data. Okay. They

18 asked very limited information about circulators, and

19 that's why they don't have a full perspective on the

20 market.

21 MR. STARR: But for instance don't they know

22 how many of these products are literally sold? There's
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1 a million pumps sold in the U.S. market, let's say, do

2 they know that there's 10,000 circulators?

3 MR. HANDZEL: When they aggregate up all of

4 our data they'll be able to tell you for all the

5 larger pump categories, but the circulators they said

6 they didn't have enough data. Not enough people

7 reported.

8 MR. BROOKMAN: Alison set us straight.

9 MR. HANDZEL: Yeah.

10 MS. WILLIAMS: Yeah, so I think Mark's

11 right. We only have circulator data from a couple

12 manufacturers and therefor, at this point, we will go

13 back and review it, but I don't think we can aggregate

14 and release it at the moment because we don't have

15 enough major manufacturers with -- providing us

16 circulator data.

17 MR. STARR: How about just a percentage of

18 market? Or can you -- I mean, because that would be

19 an un-aggregated data, right? Or it would be

20 aggregate --

21 MS. WILLIAMS: So my understanding is that

22 circulators have not been traditionally reported to HI
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1 or the census, in terms of shipments. Like, they're

2 just not reported at all. And so it's hard to

3 estimate percentage of market when there's apparently

4 no reporting of data. And not that we're not, you

5 know, trying to look for other sources of market

6 research, or whatever.

7 MR. BROOKMAN: Lucas?

8 MR. ADIN: So perhaps before getting to a

9 specific response regarding exactly which types we're

10 willing to consider covering, maybe I thought it might

11 be better to explain in a little more detail how we

12 envision the practical implementation of something

13 like this, which ultimately wraps in all the other big

14 pieces that we haven't really spoken about yet, like

15 the test procedure and the rating metric.

16 So, you know, our view is -- I think the

17 rest of the group here would agree with, is that you

18 know, we need to have a test procedure and there would

19 be a single rating metric that would be applicable to

20 these things so we can evaluate them on a standardized

21 basis.

22 At least if you're talking about something
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1 like a motor and pump combination as being a covered

2 product that has a standard applicable to it, well,

3 we're not going to do something like write a

4 prescriptive standard that specifies that it must use

5 a premium motor.

6 I think it's our view generally that that's

7 not appropriate and not -- you know, I'm not sure

8 even, you know, legally what we're allowed to do. We

9 have to use a rating metric that's been tested using a

10 test procedure, and there's a number that's the

11 standard, and that's how they're evaluated.

12 The covered product for which the

13 manufacturer's making a representation for the purpose

14 of sales and distribution, the product will be rated

15 on that basis and that would include the motor,

16 whether they want to make improvements to the pump or

17 the motor to get to that number that is the standard,

18 that's how they would do it.

19 MR. STARR: It could be calculated though,

20 potentially, right? In other words, figure the motor

21 and you know the pump, and you multiply those two and

22 you set a metric.
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1 MR. ADIN: Right.

2 MR. STARR: So essentially it just became a

3 prescriptive one but it has a number metric with it.

4 MR. ADIN: Well, that's effectively true,

5 but the number's the important part and what you just

6 mentioned as far as calculations, and things like

7 that, that's a test procedure issue and we -- really

8 that's something we will have to talk about, is what's

9 the appropriate way to determine efficiency. I mean,

10 does the whole thing actually have to be tested, or

11 can you use a calculation to get there.

12 MR. BROOKMAN: Gary?

13 MR. FERNSTROM: Gary Fernstrom, California

14 IOU's. So I want to go back to my original request

15 here, my appeal, and it seems to me the inequity in

16 this is we're here beginning a negotiation, and I

17 heard the consultants, the analysts say we went out

18 and got information associated with HI's proposed

19 scope.

20 Now, we're part of the -- the advocates is a

21 part of this negotiation too. We think that maybe

22 something else ought to be in the scope, but there
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1 isn't any information. So you know, that's

2 fundamentally inequitable.

3 If we're going to have a negotiation here,

4 we need to have information that serves the needs of

5 all parties to the negotiation.

6 MR. BROOKMAN: Charlie, did --

7 MR. CAPPELLINO: I just had a question

8 relative to circulators.

9 MR. BROOKMAN: You need a microphone. There,

10 thank you.

11 MR. CAPPELLINO: Do we know how many

12 companies we've collected information from circulators

13 on?

14 MS. KOHL: (Off mic.)

15 MR. CAPPELLINO: Two?

16 MS. KOHL: We would have to review our

17 information and --

18 MR. CAPPELLINO: The point I was going to

19 make is there's not a lot of manufacturers of

20 circulators, right? So there may be more information

21 collected than meets the eye on a percentage basis. It

22 gets back to your question of what's the percentage.
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1 So --

2 MR. BROOKMAN: But then you've got the

3 potential difficulty of disclosure that -- to

4 confront, and the Department's going to take that very

5 seriously. Steve Rosenstock?

6 MR. ROSENSTOCK: I guess -- and again, since

7 we're so focused on circulator I guess -- and I don't

8 know if this information's going to be collectable,

9 but if -- you know, I'm hearing some divergent thing -

10 - you know, are more circulators put in the

11 residential market or commercial industrial market.

12 And again, it's because of the DOE scope, it's -- this

13 is a commercial and industrial product rulemaking.

14 So I guess the problem comes in is if the

15 product is 80 percent residential, 20 percent

16 commercial, or versus 80/20, versus 50/50, well, it

17 spills over into test procedure as well. It's a

18 matter of if the information is -- comes out -- again,

19 I'm trying to think big picture here -- if the

20 information comes out that 75 percent are residential,

21 and 25 percent are commercial, or some sort of

22 distorted ratio like that -- again, I don't know, I
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1 don't make them or distribute them -- would that still

2 fall under the scope of a "commercial" rule making.

3 For example, florescent lamps, 90 percent

4 are commercial, 10 percent are probably residential,

5 we consider that a commercial product. Even though we

6 know that florescent lamps are used in residential

7 homes.

8 So again, it's that -- again, if we find

9 that information, what happens if that's the case?

10 Does that still fall under the scope of coverage?

11 MS. KOHL: Betsy Kohl from the General

12 Counsel's Office. The way we look at the scope of our

13 authority to regulate pumps is if the pump, as an

14 equipment type, is to any significant extent --

15 whatever the statutory criteria is -- sold in a

16 commercial setting. Pumps in general meet that

17 description. So circulators would be included in

18 that.

19 So as far as scope of our authority we would

20 have authority to include them in the rulemaking, but

21 you know, we can decide here if they are mostly

22 residential that might counsel against setting
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1 standards for them, potentially. But as far as scope

2 of authority, they would be included.

3 MR. BROOKMAN: Bob? Thank you.

4 MR. BARBOUR: This is Bob Barbour again. I

5 would say that the 75 percent number that you've

6 using, or referenced as a benchmark, just as a rough

7 number to comment on, is incredibly low compared --

8 from a -- the residential number is much, much higher.

9 MR. ROSENSTOCK: I don't think there's

10 anyone in this room what would disagree with that from

11 the manufacturing side?

12 MR. HANDZEL: It's actually part of the

13 public record from the public hearing that the

14 Hydraulic Institute members who make circulators

15 estimated that 70 percent of them go into residential

16 applications. But we all acknowledge that we don't

17 have data -- Gary, I'm sure you know that we sell our

18 products through multiple levels of distribution, so

19 once those products go out we don't know exactly where

20 they end up, but the general gut feeling from most of

21 the knowledgeable people in the industry was 70

22 percent go into residential applications.
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1 MR. BROOKMAN: So that was Mark. Thank you.

2 And then back to Gary.

3 MR. FERNSTROM: So Gary Fernstrom. We did a

4 survey in California, and we found that the majority

5 of circulator pumps go into commercial applications.

6 Admittedly we don't have as much residential as the

7 rest of the country. But the point I wanted to --

8 MR. BROOKMAN: You don't have a big

9 residential hydronic heat market.

10 MR. FERNSTROM: Right, right. But the point

11 I want to make, someone else alluded to it earlier, I

12 think it was Greg, we don't have a definition of what

13 a circulator pump is.

14 And what I'm thinking about with regard to

15 our interest, are those 1/25th horsepower products

16 that you guys know and love as circulator pumps, up to

17 maybe the two, three, four, five horsepower products

18 that we find circulators heating and cooling water,

19 and perhaps domestic hot water in commercial

20 buildings, hotels, and so on.

21 So I'm not thinking about it just in terms

22 of the smallest product. I'm thinking of a range of
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1 products that are sold pump and motor combined, and

2 when you buy it you don't really have much of a choice

3 of the motor, other than what the pump manufacturer

4 supplies it with.

5 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. So as I listen to this

6 conversation it occurs to me we kind of -- you know,

7 keep diving deep and then surfacing, and then diving

8 deep and surfacing. I'm not sure that's -- how

9 productive it is to stay in that pathway.

10 So I'm wondering as it's 5:30 in the

11 afternoon, and there's one more thing I'd like to do

12 before we depart, which is look -- take at least a

13 peek at the calendar.

14 If there are other issues that you might

15 state now related to the rulemaking objective and

16 scope that you anticipate that it should be stated

17 right here at the outset that are important enough

18 that you'd raise them up for consideration now. I'll

19 start with Chuck.

20 MR. POWERS: Yeah, Chuck Powers, Flowserve.

21 I think eventually with the consultants, and ourselves

22 as a group, I think that Charlie brought up the point
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1 about the line on pumps circled and VFD's.

2 I think it's also important to note that the

3 VFD's add a different variable when it comes to

4 efficiency, when it comes to operating, because

5 initially the VFD's were put in place because somebody

6 had an existing system and because as we say in the

7 pump world they were blowing past the valve too much

8 and the VFD got them in there. But VFD's do not

9 necessarily, in all cases in a old system, make it

10 more efficient. All's it's doing is putting that unit

11 -- you know, at a location where it would run. So we

12 need to look at that. Okay. Not saying definition.

13 Secondly, I think it's also important that

14 EU directive did it, and I think we all do it

15 ourselves, is the balance act on how much efficiency -

16 - I think what Gary was bringing up, how much

17 efficiency can be gained by the impact of the cost.

18 Right?

19 So in other words, if you gain this much

20 efficiency in the market level is it going to change

21 and how much cost to get there. Maybe there's

22 something. Then as you go a little bit further in
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1 that evaluation, the more efficiency you gain, the

2 curve changes where it's into the multi-million dollar

3 development cost impact.

4 So there -- you know, what we should do as a

5 group is make sure we understand where these

6 crosshairs are to make it reasonable, because

7 companies look at payback. They look at --

8 MR. BROOKMAN: Right.

9 MR. POWERS: -- how much investment's going

10 to be needed and then even though we're trying to get

11 the opinions done by 2014, I believe is what we're

12 talking about, when will it go into effect, how much

13 time is it going to be for these companies to do this

14 work? Because that timeframe may not be perceivable

15 for them, and it may start to make some changes.

16 Right?

17 You know, I'm not giving opinions, I'm just

18 saying let's make sure we truly look at this in a

19 grand scale.

20 MR. FERNSTROM: So this is Gary, California

21 IOU's. We've been working together for a long time

22 and I totally understand the industry impacts and your
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1 concern about that. Again, I just want to look at

2 this and we need to be sensitive to those concerns.

3 MR. ADIN: Right. And to state a little bit

4 more specifically in response to -- well, actually

5 both items that you mentioned, the latter one first.

6 Payback period and life cycle costs are one

7 of the critical pieces of analysis that we go through.

8 It's one of the -- it's in fact one of the seven

9 factors that I mentioned, as far as how we determine

10 the economic justifiability of a rule.

11 So we certainly will be going through that

12 in detail, and a lot of the data that we're going to

13 gather is exactly in support of constructing those

14 numbers. So on a per pump basis and then eventually a

15 national impact analysis once you take into account

16 shipments. You know, what's the net cost to the

17 economy, industry, consumers, all that. So we're

18 going to get there. Those will form the foundation

19 for what we decide.

20 But the previous item, with respect to the

21 VSD systems versus just a regular pump motor system is

22 actually a question that I realize I should have asked
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1 earlier, but -- so obviously the overall goal of the

2 Department through any of these is energy savings, and

3 efficiency of individual systems is one way to get

4 there, but you know, we also may want to think about

5 what are the comparative total savings achievable from

6 one type of system over another.

7 So if we come up with a common rating metric

8 that reflects that the use of a VSD type system is

9 potentially more -- provides more opportunity for

10 savings because of use of part load, as opposed to

11 just a constant speed system that's throttled, you

12 know, what's the potential for benefit there?

13 I mean, is it likely that users of single

14 speed throttled systems would switch if they knew that

15 potential energy savings are very significant? And

16 that's where it seems like the use of that pump, plus

17 motor, plus VSD rating metric could potentially be

18 really useful.

19 MR. POWERS: Yeah, I think -- Chuck Powers

20 again, Flowserve. I agree with what you're stating,

21 right. I think it's important that we expand along

22 what your directive did, or what we also believe, and
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1 try to make sense out of it. I don't want to say

2 either way what -- you know, again it's a crosshairs;

3 where does it make sense?

4 Because the first cost impact to a buyer of

5 a VFD system is a big change, you know, compared to

6 buying an off the shelf commodity device, right? And

7 we all know that, and there's a lot of neat systems

8 out there, you know, but we got to look at that.

9 I think it gets back to what I think Charles

10 was bringing up before, is you know, where are we

11 going to start and what makes the most sense, and how

12 can we do this effectively?

13 MR. BROOKMAN: Good. Steve?

14 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Steve Rosenstock. Yeah, I

15 just -- two things, just since there was discussion of

16 motors, for those who don't follow the motors rule

17 making, DOE came out with a NOPR in late November for

18 large integral horsepower, one to five hundred

19 horsepower motors that are being used in larger pumps.

20 Where basically starting in 2016 the premium motor now

21 will be the standard motor starting in 2016 for

22 covered motors.
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1 Not for the new ones that are being covered,

2 but the covered design A, design B, basically that's

3 the next phase of the motors efficiency increase goes

4 into effect in 2016 according to the NOPR, just as an

5 FYI.

6 The second thing is, it is kind of

7 interesting that under legislation there have been

8 design specifications for products. Walk-in coolers

9 and freezers, until recently, it was a design spec in

10 EISA 2007, it said the insulation should be this, and

11 the motor shall be that. It was pure design spec, no

12 efficiency metric, but DOE was required to do an

13 efficiency metric now that one's come out.

14 For residential boilers there's a

15 requirement, as of September 22, of all residential

16 boilers have to have an automatic temperature reset.

17 It's not part of the AFUE requirement, which is

18 separate, a separate test procedure, but all boilers

19 have that requirement. I think the legislators found

20 that basically all boilers could benefit from that

21 control. Every boiler in the U.S. having that will

22 save energy, above and beyond the increase in the
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1 AFEU.

2 So, you know, those examples are out there;

3 I'm not recommending it, I'm just saying they're out

4 there. But there is -- the key was, especially for

5 the boilers, that all boilers would have energy

6 savings from that control. I don't know if all pumps

7 will have energy savings from the drives, depending on

8 the application. Thanks.

9 MR. ADIN: My statement was with

10 understanding that these things are application based.

11 We wouldn't -- I don't think we would want to write

12 any kind of standard that would push people to use a

13 system that's not appropriate for their application.

14 In fact, what we'd be trying to do is create

15 a metric that induces people to use the most

16 appropriate type of system for their application that

17 would achieve maximum energy savings.

18 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay.

19 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Steve Rosenstock, EEI.ut

20 again, that might require more test procedures if

21 you're being -- the more application specific you get.

22 MR. ADIN: Understood.
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1 MR. BROOKMAN: And it's a concern, trying to

2 fit all this stuff together in a reasonable timeline

3 here.

4 Other, perhaps, final issues that you want

5 to float at this point? Noting that tomorrow we're

6 going to return to this subject. Scope and

7 objectives? I'm seeing none at this point.

8 Let me hand this out, just everybody take

9 one of these. I just want you to scan this for you

10 bemusement, and you can think about it this evening.

11 MR. FERNSTROM: So Doug, are you -- Gary,

12 California IOU's -- are you suggesting something by

13 giving us a calendar that only goes through June?

14 MR. BROOKMAN: That's all we can scrounge

15 together, but I'll bring more tomorrow. I thought it

16 would be a decent place to start.

17 And let me note, by the way, we're just

18 beginning this conversation. I expect -- I hope that

19 tomorrow we can get more concrete in our thinking. But

20 I wanted to begin this. So what are you thinking --

21 this two day arrangement where we start at say 10:00

22 a.m. so many people can fly in in the morning, not
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1 everybody -- the West Coasters are stuck coming in the

2 day before, and the -- leave here at 3:00 in the

3 afternoon so even the West Coasters can head out of

4 here. Is that generally -- you think that's kind of a

5 sensible arrangement? It works for other folks.

6 My presumption going in is that that's

7 probably, you know, as good as we're going to do and

8 still get in two full days of work. Yes? No one

9 challenges that assumption. Meg, you want to

10 challenge the assumption?

11 MS. WALTNER: I want -- are there people who

12 are flying in the morning for the 10:00 a.m. start?

13 Like, I could have started earlier this morning, but I

14 don't know if there are people --

15 MR. BROOKMAN: I think there are folks that

16 are flying in -- yeah.

17 MS. WALTNER: Okay.

18 MR. HANDZEL: I agree with Meg, I think we

19 could have started earlier.

20 MR. BROOKMAN: So let's explore that, but

21 not right now.

22 MS. WALTNER: And then my second point was
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1 that an 8:00 a.m. start for someone on West Coast time

2 is rough, even if we're here.

3 MR. BROOKMAN: I agree. It is a good point.

4 So, okay well, let's talk about that. Does -- did

5 anybody fly in this morning just straight on in, or

6 did everybody come in the night before? You took the

7 red-eye, Tom?

8 MR. POTTS: This is Doug Potts. I took the

9 train down from Philadelphia, so I appreciated the

10 10:00 a.m. start because it allowed me to take the

11 train this morning and get here in time.

12 MR. BROOKMAN: Not just for today's meeting,

13 but looking ahead, do other individuals envision

14 they'd be flying in in the morning for an ongoing --

15 regular basis, or what -- it seems like -- I'm looking

16 around the table. Most of you will get here the night

17 before? The great majority of you? Could you do that

18 if you needed to?

19 MR. POTTS: I could. It's not preferable,

20 but I could.

21 MR. BROOKMAN: How about you, Chuck?

22 MR. POWERS: I drove down, but I -- if you
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1 started earlier that would be fine, because when you

2 mentally think 10:00, I don't leave until 8:30, then

3 you run into deep traffic, so (inaudible).

4 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. So Chuck says --

5 UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: Apparently you'll

6 still run into D.C. traffic.

7 MR. BROOKMAN: Chuck says it would be okay

8 for him to start earlier even though he's driving

9 down. Gary?

10 MR. FERNSTROM: So -- this is Gary. Let me

11 go to Meg's point; it's tough for the West Coasters to

12 start at 5:00 in the morning. A lot of -- although I

13 fly in the night before, a lot of times the flights

14 are delayed.

15 MR. BROOKMAN: Yeah.

16 MR. FERNSTROM: So I have no idea what time

17 I'm going to get in. I might wind up like Tom,

18 effectively taking a red-eye. So I like the current

19 arrangement, you know, even though we might lose a

20 couple hours between 8:00 and 10:00 the first day.

21 MR. BROOKMAN: Yeah, okay. So we're

22 undecided on this point. And then going to the second
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1 point about starting at 8:00 a.m. on day two, you

2 know, of course we're trying to squeeze in as many

3 hours as we can here productively, and if that will

4 pinch anybody on the web, those who are joining us via

5 the West Coast, but a lot of workplaces now

6 accommodate work from home, you know, all that sort of

7 thing. So maybe they can sign online or whatever --

8 go ahead, Steve.

9 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Steve Rosenstock --

10 MR. BROOKMAN: Disabuse me of my notion

11 here.

12 MR. ROSENSTOCK: For the second day, again,

13 not for this meeting, you might want to start -- think

14 about 9:00 a.m. start, just --

15 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay.

16 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Just to be a little more

17 fair for -- if there is interest for people on the

18 webinar. I mean, it would be a little -- at 6:00

19 rather than 5:00.

20 MR. BROOKMAN: And what about getting out of

21 here in the afternoon? If we leave here at 3:00, is

22 that enough time? Can we extend to 3:30, 4:00? It
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1 seems like it would be pinching. All of you that go

2 back and forth to the West Coast consistently, do we

3 need to leave at 3:00? Is 3:30 okay? What -- Louis,

4 I'm looking at you.

5 MR. STARR: You know, I was going to say

6 that 8:00 in the morning is a much preferable than

7 running to an airplane at 4:30, because stuff happens

8 there. So the 3:00 -- and I used to do this thing all

9 summer when the West Coast -- because I didn't always

10 attend, and the 5:00 -- I mean, a lot of times you

11 don't actually have to drive into work. So you know,

12 you're cutting some time off there.

13 MR. BROOKMAN: Yeah. Sure. Charlie, did

14 you want to add in here?

15 MR. CAPPELLINO: No, just --

16 MR. BROOKMAN: Microphone.

17 MR. CAPPELLINO: Yeah. I was just -- same

18 concern about traffic and getting to the airport, if

19 we start -- if we end the meeting too late and -- I'd

20 prefer to start earlier than to wrestle that issue.

21 MR. BROOKMAN: Yeah. So it -- Steve, go

22 ahead.
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1 MR. ROSENSTOCK: As a D.C. native any time

2 after 3:00, you're going to run into traffic.

3 MR. BROOKMAN: But that's why getting out of

4 here at 3:00 you've got a chance, right?

5 MR. ROSENSTOCK: No.

6 MR. BROOKMAN: No? Okay. Okay.

7 MR. POWERS: I think it depends on the

8 airport. I think it depends -- if it's Dulles, it's a

9 blow and go, if it's National it's blow and go, if

10 it's Baltimore, it's a problem.

11 MR. BROOKMAN: Yeah.

12 MR. POWERS: 5:00 is a problem for all of

13 them, but --

14 MR. BROOKMAN: Yeah, yeah. Okay. So it

15 looks like generally -- this will all be in the

16 record, that we're -- I guess we're undecided between

17 9:00 and 10:00 in the morning on the first day, maybe

18 stick with 10:00 for now.

19 We'll reevaluate this as we're going along.

20 Certainly it would make sense to work until 5:30-6:00

21 on the first day. We'll probably start at 8:00 on the

22 second day. I mean, we'll see how that works out.
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1 If we turn out to be incredibly productive,

2 which I think we will be, then maybe we can compress

3 our timeframes a little bit. And then certainly leave

4 at 3:00 p.m. on day two.

5 Now, let me ask you this, so we schedule

6 these two days mid-week. It's always been my pre7 disposition that you don't want to schedule on Monday,

8 because then the travelers need to fly over the

9 weekend; pinching a weekend is kind of problematic.

10 Can be. And working until Friday also, you know, kind

11 of pinches you again on the weekend.

12 So I guess, my bias, my expectation, is that

13 we would generally conduct these meetings Tuesday,

14 Wednesday, Thursday. Some two-day configuration in

15 the middle there. Yes? Everybody's okay with that

16 assumption? And is there a distinct preference?

17 Tuesday-Wednesday? Wednesday-Thursday? Should we

18 shift it? Rotate it around? What do -- any thoughts

19 on that? Steve?

20 MR. ROSENSTOCK: I don't have a preference

21 for days, but since I'm involved with so many national

22 organizations, I think it at least one of the
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1 meetings, just to be fair to the West Coast should be

2 either in the mid-west or the west to give them a

3 little bit of a break. You know, I mean --

4 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Does (simultaneous

5 speaking) --

6 MR. ROSENSTOCK: If it's possible and if

7 someone agrees to host. You know, I -- that's always

8 --

9 MR. BROOKMAN: Yeah, right. It's a

10 significant logistical event to do the website, the

11 web access, and you know, all that kind of stuff, and

12 provide the court reporter, and you know, that is --

13 I'm just --

14 MR. ROSENSTOCK: I understand that, but I'm

15 just, again, trying to be fair to other people's

16 schedules in there --

17 MR. BROOKMAN: I'm with you. I'm wondering

18 has DOE ever done that in the past?

19 MR. COHEN: We've never had a meeting

20 outside of the D.C. metropolitan area and Virginia --

21 like at Steve's office. Yeah, no, we've never had a

22 meeting outside of the D.C. metro.
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1 MR. BROOKMAN: Does this -- are you

2 precluded?

3 MR. COHEN: No. The issue for us is budget.

4 MR. BROOKMAN: Yeah.

5 MR. HANDZEL: You guys have to travel

6 instead of us. So Doug, I would just volunteer that

7 our main facility is 20 minutes, 30 minutes from

8 O'Hare, and we have a large training facility that

9 could accommodate this size group.

10 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay.

11 MR. HANDZEL: So we would be willing to host

12 the meeting. I don't know if we can me your

13 technological requirements; we'd have to check that

14 out.

15 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Well, that's kind of

16 you to offer that, and I think it's worth considering.

17 I frequently do meetings that are mid-country-ish so

18 people can, you know, get in and out pretty

19 expeditiously. Okay. So that's good; it's all good

20 information.

21 MR. FERNSTROM: While we're making offers,

22 this is Gary again, our Pacific Energy Center on
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1 Howard Street in San Francisco could easily

2 accommodate this group and has the facilities for the

3 webinar. The court reporter would be another issue.

4 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Okay. So this is

5 grist for the mill, something for us to consider. Now,

6 looking at this calendar --

7 MR. POWERS: Doug, can I have a question?

8 MR. BROOKMAN: Oh, yes. Please, Chuck?

9 MR. POWERS: Just thinking this through.

10 Monday for -- Monday for our friends on the West

11 Coast, is almost shot. They're on the way to the

12 airport, the day's shot. Friday is okay because I'm

13 assuming they're going back on Thursday, so it's not

14 so bad.

15 But my question would be, if we get into

16 some good stuff and the momentum's carrying -- dumb

17 question -- we start on Tuesday, what's the hang up

18 with continuing on Thursday? The week's already --

19 I'm not trying to say -- the week's basically already

20 shot. Right? I mean --

21 MR. BROOKMAN: Well, let's just say there's

22 so much productive work going on here, that you
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1 wouldn't want to divert your attention.

2 MR. POWERS: Yeah, but my point would be if

3 we got good momentum, is maybe over the next six

4 months, if there's one a month, we decide every other

5 one we do a three-day gig, or something.

6 Because there's enough -- I'm not

7 suggesting, but if the week's already there, you know,

8 and they -- you know, again, the West Coast guys could

9 leave on a Thursday and still get home on Thursday

10 night. Then we get -- you know, I'm -- again,

11 everybody's busy. It's not like we -- but we're

12 already two days into it, three days by some of us,

13 and so --

14 MR. BROOKMAN: Yeah. Right. And so I'd add

15 onto that. If we are rather consistently, say,

16 Tuesday and Wednesday, then it would be easily be the

17 case -- could easily be the case that the sub-group

18 could meet on Thursday morning and people could still

19 book out mid-day on Thursday. And so -- and get back

20 home. So it's a possible configuration. Okay? I'll

21 note that.

22 MR. COHEN: I'm just going to point out the
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1 only -- again for us, the only issue there is

2 logistics, to the extent we're meeting in this room

3 sometimes this room is booked by other people, right,

4 so if we are meeting on Tuesday and Wednesday and want

5 to continue we may not have a physical space to sit

6 in, so we'd just have to figure that out. And --

7 MR. POWERS: And I know this is going to be

8 taking well, but we're talking 14 billion government

9 buildings, and there's not one we can use?

10 MR. COHEN: I didn't say there's not one we

11 can use, I just said we have to find --

12 MR. ROSENSTOCK: I think it's only half a

13 million, not 14 billion. Half a million, 500,000.

14 MR. POWERS: Well, most of those owned by

15 the Defense Department so we don't really have --

16 MR. BROOKMAN: This is also the Secretary's

17 conference room, and guess who gets priority? So --

18 but I have a listing of the available dates in January

19 and February here, so we need to land on this right

20 now, but for example, we're not, what, in the third

21 week of December, approximately.

22 If we were to go, say, an -- exactly a month
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1 out then that would be, as you see on your calendar

2 there, that would be the month of -- or the week of

3 January 20 through 24, and the following week --

4 UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: That's ASHRAE.

5 MR. BROOKMAN: That's ASHRAE? Then how

6 about the -- potentially the following week, January

7 27 through 31? Any major, major conflicts that --

8 we're not making a date right now, we're just, you

9 know, floating a few ideas. Okay.

10 And so maybe, conceivably -- this room is

11 available January 28 and 29 -- 27, 28, and 29, so

12 maybe as a possibility you could check with your

13 calendar, January 28 and 29. Okay? And see what

14 other conflicts -- whose birthday you're going to

15 miss.

16 UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: Mine.

17 MR. BROOKMAN: We could get a cake in here,

18 or cupcakes, or something. And then looking ahead, if

19 we're going to follow the same pattern -- this room is

20 not available two consecutive days midweek in

21 February, but as you think about that, you want to

22 stick with --
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1 MR. POWERS: The last week.

2 MR. BROOKMAN: You want to stick also with

3 four, five weeks, as -- in between? So if we did

4 that, that would mean that either the week of -- it

5 would be the week of February 24-28, I think. That

6 would be fully four -- one, two, three, four weeks.

7 Okay?

8 So it may be in -- it's conceivable, it's

9 possible that we could miss a week, hit -- you know,

10 do five weeks. But maybe we just target that as a

11 thought process. Something for you to consider. Then

12 I don't think it profits us to go much further than

13 that at this point, but just -- my purpose here was to

14 start attuning you to looking at a calendar and

15 thinking about yours. Not to make commitments --

16 UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: Doug, did you want to

17 ask about March?

18 (An off the record conversation was

19 held)

20 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. So let's do that. If

21 we stick with four weeks that would be, I believe,

22 March 24 though 28. Is that a big conflict date or is
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1 that an okay date? Yeah? Okay.

2 So -- okay, so let's just do a bracket

3 around those dates as being possible. And since --

4 and April's a busy month for conferences also, right?

5 Let's look at April. So if we continue with April

6 then that would be one, two, three, four -- we could

7 either the April 21 through 25, or 28 --

8 UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: You might have an

9 issue there for (inaudible 1:51:44) --

10 MR. BROOKMAN: Easter Sunday is the 20th?

11 Okay. Yeah, but if we -- would it be acceptable to

12 travel on Monday and be here on Tuesday the 22nd?

13 MR. COHEN: Can I just suggest that that

14 week -- if that's around Easter, it's probably also

15 around Passover, which means it's also -- it's

16 probably spring break, so people might have other

17 things going on trip wise -- I don't know when spring

18 breaks are for schools, and whatever, but --

19 MR. BROOKMAN: You know, though, we maybe we

20 should just defer on April for the moment. Is it --

21 UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: How about the

22 following week --
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1 MR. BROOKMAN: Yeah, I'm thrilled that we

2 got three potential, kind of, still open for

3 discussion, but potential meeting dates in January,

4 February, and March.

5 UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: But for April you're

6 thinking --

7 MR. BROOKMAN: I'll restate -- yeah, and I -

8 - thinking January 27th through 31, and potentially,

9 maybe specifically, since that's coming up pretty

10 quick, January 28 and 29. And then in February we're

11 talking probably February 24 through 28, and we'll

12 need to find at least one day an additional room here

13 in this place, or we need to find another meeting

14 location, perhaps. We can find another room here --

15 MR. WALTNER: Doug, I might be the only one,

16 but I have a conflict on the 25th and 26th of

17 February.

18 MR. BROOKMAN: You do? Okay.

19 MS. WALTNER: 27th and 28th -- yeah --

20 MR. BROOKMAN: So we're going -- everybody's

21 going to get a chance to say what their conflicts are

22 tomorrow.
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1 MS. WALTNER: Oh, sorry.

2 MR. BROOKMAN: And there will be plenty of

3 them, I'm certain. And then potentially the last week

4 of March on this calendar, 24 through 28, we'll be

5 looking for mid-week in there somewhere, I think.

6 Okay?

7 So that's really -- that's thrilling that we

8 got that far already. So tomorrow, looking ahead, the

9 agenda as written is discussion of carry-over from day

10 one, discussion of issues surrounding commercial and

11 industrial pumps, and continue discussion on

12 negotiated rule making efforts.

13 That is to say, it's pretty wide open about

14 the issues that matter to you, and Lucas articulated

15 what he though was the bottom line for our

16 accomplishment by the end of the day tomorrow. So

17 I'll turn it back to you to describe that.

18 MR. ADIN: Well, I just wanted to, perhaps,

19 be a little bit more specific about what I -- well,

20 what I personally had in mind as far as what we might

21 need to preliminarily agree upon in order to have a

22 good idea about a reasonable schedule for the rule,
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1 and it's really more just what we want to analyze.

2 When we talk about scope for these purposes

3 we're not setting in stone, this is exactly what we're

4 going to write standards for. We're just saying we

5 want to analysis on these things, and it may very well

6 be that farther down the line we determine they're not

7 justified, or what have you. Or it might even be that

8 we want to expand to something else.

9 MR. BROOKMAN: And that's consistent with

10 what you do in your normal rulemaking process, you

11 start with a big bucket --

12 MR. ADIN: Right.

13 MR. BROOKMAN: -- and you do analysis on it

14 all, and you look at all those factors, those seven

15 factors, and you scan through it and then you narrow

16 it down somewhat.

17 MR. ADIN: Right. Yeah, I think we just

18 want to be clear on what it is that -- we're willing

19 to analyze what we'd like to collect data on, and that

20 kind of thing. It's not -- definitely we're going to

21 write standards exactly for these things, and we're

22 going to march on from there. So just to make sure
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1 that that's clear.

2 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. But then you also said

3 our objective, as best as we can tomorrow is to have

4 enough discussion so that we begin to think about

5 whether this is a six month endeavor, or whether it's

6 a nine month endeavor; that sort of a thing. Right?

7 MR. ADIN: Yeah. And I think -- well, I

8 think we have a rough idea of what we're shooting for,

9 as far as timeline. You know, we just want to make

10 sure that it's -- that we can do it.

11 MR. BROOKMAN: Yeah.

12 MR. ADIN: How likely is it that, you know,

13 we would exceed that. I mean, hopefully we can do

14 what it is that we want to analyze within that time

15 period, but we're just trying to get an idea of what

16 would work.

17 MR. BROOKMAN: So at this point I will

18 entertain anybody that wants to make very, very brief

19 closing comments before we move towards adjournment.

20 So then I'll take the initiative and then iturn it

21 back to Dan and Lucas.

22 I just thank you all -- oh, Gary, you want
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1 to take the initiative first?

2 MR. FERNSTROM: I appreciate everybody's

3 good spirited nature.

4 MR. BROOKMAN: Thank you. As do I. And

5 that's what -- I was going to follow in that vein. I'm

6 really thrilled to get this underway. The

7 Department's been trying to get this going for a

8 while. A lot of thought process has gone into this,

9 and I really appreciate meeting you all, seeing you

10 all, and the sprit that's here in this room. I really

11 have -- hold out great hopes. I think we're making

12 tremendous progress here. And so then back to Dan and

13 Lucas, and I would wish you all safe travels.

14 MR. ADIN: I don't think I have anything

15 else in particular to add. Just thanks a lot for

16 being here, and I think we're off to a good start,

17 personally. So I'll see you tomorrow morning.

18 MR. BROOKMAN: We're going to be in this

19 room tomorrow at 8:00 a.m., and you can leave the

20 table tents and don't much else. Try to clean up your

21 space, if you would, please. There's recycling bins

22 next to the elevator, and paper and everything can go
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1 there. There will be someone to admit you, and give

2 you a badge, beginning at 7:00 a.m. downstairs in the

3 lobby.

4 (Whereupon, at 5:59 p.m., the

5 Commercial and Industrial Pumps

6 Negotiated Rulemaking Working Group

7 meeting was concluded.)

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Capital Reporting Compan 

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1 CERTIFICATE OF COURT REPORTER 

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5 I, NATALIA THOMAS, the Court Reporter before 

6 whom the foregoing proceeding was taken, do hereby 

7 certify that the proceeding was recorded by me; that 

8 the proceeding was thereafter reduced to typewriting 

9 under my direction; that said transcript is a true and 

10 accurate record of the proceeding; that I am neither 

11 related to nor employed by any of the parties to this 

12 proceeding; and, further, that I have no financial 

13 interest in this proceeding. 

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3 I, ANNMARIE WASKO, hereby certify that I am not the 

4 Court Reporter who reported the following proceeding 

5 and that I have typed the transcript of this 

6 proceeding using the Court Reporter's notes and 

7 recordings. The foregoing/attached transcript is a 

8 true, correct and complete transcription of said 

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Capital Reporting Company 

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3 I, CHERYL LASELLE, hereby certify that I am not the 

4 Court Reporter who reported the following proceeding 

5 and that I have typed the transcript of this 

6 proceeding using the Court Reporter's notes and 

7 recordings. The foregoing/attached transcript is a 

8 true, correct and complete transcription of said 

9 proceeding. 

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Capital Reporting Company 

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3 I, CORRINE YANOSY, hereby certify that I am not the 

4 Court Reporter who reported the following proceeding 

5 and that I have typed the transcript of this 

6 proceeding using the Court Reporter's notes and 

7 recordings. The foregoing/attached transcript is a 

8 true, correct and complete transcription of said 

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Capital Reporting Compan 

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3 I, EVE JEMISON, hereby certify that I am not the Court 

4 Reporter who reported the following proceeding and 

5 that I have typed the transcript of this proceeding 

6 using the Court Reporter's notes and recordings. The 

7 foregoing/attached transcript is a true, correct and 

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Capital Reporting Company 

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3 I, LISA SIKES, hereby certify that I am not the Court 

4 Reporter who reported the following proceeding and 

5 that I have typed the transcript of this proceeding 

6 using the Court Reporter's notes and recordings. The 

7 foregoing/attached transcript is a true, correct and 

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209:13

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24:12 27:21

28:10 52:4

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39:9,13 47:9

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108:15,22 112:6

130:8 141:19

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193:4 194:12

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216:3,18

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261:15

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246:22 274:18

292:14 299:11

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330:8 334:12

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159:10 161:20

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90:13 103:19
Capital Reporting Company

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www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014

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Capital Reporting Company

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175:1 178:18

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coast 25:14,16
Capital Reporting Company

Commercial and Industrial Pumps Negotiated Rulemaking Working Group 12-18-2013

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26:13 326:1

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332:1 334:11

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Commercial and Industrial Pumps Negotiated Rulemaking Working Group 12-18-2013

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199:22

200:14,22 201:1

203:6 205:13

206:13 208:8,9

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industrial

271:18

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338:15

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289:13

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289:6

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298:2,16

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281:19

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212:14 213:5

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105:22 106:4

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253:10

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concurrently 5:9
Capital Reporting Company

Commercial and Industrial Pumps Negotiated Rulemaking Working Group 12-18-2013

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(866) 448 - DEPO

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condensed 35:15

condenser 262:6

condition 260:21

conditioning 13:8

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28:19 30:12 31:9

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264:12 331:14

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266:2 295:10

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confront 45:22

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139:3

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265:15,16

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218:1

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198:12 201:7

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consumption

250:10 277:16

contact 227:11

229:9
Capital Reporting Company

Commercial and Industrial Pumps Negotiated Rulemaking Working Group 12-18-2013

Page 15

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www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014

cont'd 3:1

content 90:4

150:20,21

194:11

continue 23:5,8

26:16

71:13,15,19

191:7 251:14

336:5 339:5

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continued 71:12

continues 5:2

continuing 24:13

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continuously

185:5

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22:19

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288:17

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contributed 31:3

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144:19

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298:15

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controversial

147:10

convened 121:12

convener 211:5

convention 169:6

conversation

51:13 86:13

110:16 179:5

231:22 316:6

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conversations

20:21 40:1 232:5

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cooperation

285:16

cooperative

106:22

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100:15

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140:22

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256:10

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17:21,22

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91:18 97:11

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correction

202:10,12 249:9

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CORRINE

349:3,13

cost 11:6 36:7

55:20 177:14

180:12 244:13

278:2,3 281:4

288:10 289:9,10

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317:17,21 318:3

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235:7 240:9

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321:22 322:1,2

covering 287:20

308:10
Capital Reporting Company

Commercial and Industrial Pumps Negotiated Rulemaking Working Group 12-18-2013

Page 16

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crazy 264:16

CRE 118:3

create 59:10,11

91:20 136:14

152:19 201:14

265:3 323:14

created 145:16

creates 165:18

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313:15

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113:8 186:14

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current 96:2 97:2

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curves 55:20

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57:1 58:9 68:8

193:8,20 197:4

201:9 214:12

217:17 219:17

229:3 257:5

266:9 270:18

legally 309:8

legislation 322:7

legislators 322:19

legitimate 302:7

less 97:16 112:12

142:1 175:2

177:11 178:17

182:2,13 227:4

298:15

let's 4:3 6:17 14:18

44:19 64:22

65:14 66:14 67:1

77:21 78:3 96:16

104:21 130:18

137:15 162:7

163:13 169:20

191:5 207:18

209:4 210:11

235:8 259:14

262:12 271:20

279:12 281:1

307:1 318:18

325:20 326:4

334:21 338:20

339:2,5

letter 96:7 245:15

247:13 281:17

letters 281:12

level 19:11 45:12

54:11 148:2

158:3 192:13

273:14 289:14

290:3 291:20

292:1,4,11 301:6

317:20

levels 11:8

35:13,19 50:14

192:12 274:1

314:18

liable 195:16

life 177:14 278:13

319:6

life-cycle 279:9

lighting 11:9

likely 24:10 31:15

182:2 261:7

265:12 291:5

320:13 343:12

limit 139:21

141:16 305:12

limited 103:12

169:21 245:4

252:22 254:9

266:2 289:19

303:17 304:1,17

306:18

limiting 142:3

249:22 305:4

limits 206:16

Lin 3:3 82:3,9

line 68:17 112:21

317:1 341:15

342:6

lines 130:11

lining 89:10

lion 253:6

LISA 351:3,12

list 8:10 80:18

265:3

listed 24:11 34:10

80:17 90:11

193:13

listen 316:5

listening 76:19

82:6 184:20

listing 148:5

336:18

literally 306:22

little 18:13

25:17,18 28:12

29:16 42:4 43:3

49:16,20 60:19

63:5 84:16 94:21

98:19 99:1,4

100:8 123:20

131:18 140:10

141:1 165:8

177:3 180:2

186:10,22 213:3

230:4 236:21

238:2 241:9

245:2 247:5

248:14

262:7,10,16

265:1 271:22

274:20 279:5,15

292:16 297:20

303:17 305:21

306:7 308:11

317:22 319:3

328:16,18 331:3

332:3 341:19

live 101:8,11

145:15

Livermore 252:4

lives 186:5

load 61:6 269:2

277:21 320:10

loading 10:4

268:22

loads 291:4

lobby 345:3

location 45:20

162:16 165:7

317:11 340:14

locations 166:2

lock 69:12 181:11

locked 166:19

180:9

log 84:12 232:5

logic 162:3 175:18

182:22

logistical 332:10

logistics 336:2

long 8:22 23:11

71:16 112:13

125:14 128:14

133:4 160:14

184:11 202:16

302:18 318:21

longer 71:2 104:17

lose 109:18 184:4

208:2 327:19

loss 49:7

lost 114:19 129:1

155:17

lot 7:10,12 8:12

12:2 13:10 22:20

27:6 28:5,9
Capital Reporting Company

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29:20 30:13

31:1,2 32:11,12

35:14,17

36:13,17

37:12,21 38:9

40:17 42:21

46:19,21 51:18

53:13,19 54:6

57:5 61:10,18

63:14 86:8,13,19

97:20 99:8

100:13 101:3

107:12 122:4

126:18,19 139:7

151:8 156:8,17

163:15,22

182:13 186:18

235:7 237:16,20

242:8 248:22

250:13

252:14,19

253:2,19 261:15

262:2 273:5,21

278:7,17 279:5

281:16,19

283:14,21 284:3

285:19 287:21

294:4 295:7,20

296:12 299:14

304:5 305:18,22

311:19 319:12

321:7 327:12,13

328:5 329:10

344:8,15

lots 287:3 305:19

Louis 3:12 11:10

26:19 46:22 47:1

50:8,13 86:3

87:21 94:14

104:14 107:9

118:1 122:10

128:12 130:3

131:16 135:13

156:6 164:2

165:20 166:3

186:11,12

198:15 224:12

304:18 329:3

love 315:16

low 101:1 268:16

314:7

lower 94:20 95:3

230:4

lowering 140:13

lowest 290:9

Lucas 2:5 5:19

13:3,22 28:2

38:5 41:14 50:17

52:2 55:15

67:13,14 87:8

93:7,8 99:17

111:6 113:4,14

120:19 125:10

128:5 159:17

160:4 162:3

167:7 169:6

170:21 173:11

179:12 216:9

225:8 238:1

244:16 247:7

274:18 286:15

287:5 295:19

308:7 341:14

343:21 344:13

lunch 23:2,4

130:18

131:18,20 132:5

133:1 134:2,11

167:15 168:1,2

226:19

Luxton 3:4 14:22

M

machine 235:13

magnet 261:21

main 32:8 166:15

333:7

mainly 64:11

282:15 305:10

maintain 70:20

214:16 265:7

major 10:19

128:17 211:7

221:6 307:15

337:7

majority 110:12

211:9 272:16

315:4 326:17

majors 288:13

MALE 152:22

168:11 170:7

172:17 174:19

206:22

217:7,13,15

231:18

232:20,22

234:16,20

235:19 236:5

256:18

manage 10:9

manageable 296:8

management 9:14

Manager 16:2

manages 17:2

managing 182:17

mandate 257:11

manner 227:13

266:20

manufacture

258:22

manufactured

266:8 300:17

301:5

manufacturer

7:15,16 8:1

11:17 12:22

250:22 257:20

263:2,13 265:20

266:3,5 268:20

269:12 273:8

304:8 316:3

manufacturers

12:16 38:7 44:16

62:14 80:21

128:17 267:16

272:7 273:6,10

281:15 282:17

288:22 296:10

297:19 299:2

300:5 304:11

307:12,15

311:19

manufacturer's

269:10 309:13

Manufacturers

2:9 16:4

manufacturing

8:13 44:18 259:3

283:15 302:11

314:11

march 338:17,22

340:4 341:4

342:22

mark 2:19 3:7

7:14 15:16

38:4,6 43:14

78:3,17 80:13

90:20,22 178:12

181:6,7 242:22

247:12 252:2

254:3 258:10

260:11 281:9,10

293:21,22

298:18 306:13

315:1

market 45:12

50:10 61:3,11,13

62:16 151:13

240:4,13,18,20

244:10,14

247:14 248:12

250:9 252:2

272:3,12 273:11
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277:17,18

280:17,20

281:13 284:3,20

286:1 291:13

297:4 306:1,20

307:1,18 308:3,5

312:11 315:9

317:20

marketplace

253:15 272:18

markets 297:16

Mark's 307:10

markup 45:11

Masters 3:5 15:14

match 100:9

247:19 259:10

materially 205:3

213:15

math 95:13 118:16

matter 14:17 54:2

56:21 58:22

73:21 75:11 84:1

92:5 121:9

141:21 150:4

157:18 158:19

161:1 168:20

169:8 172:18

312:18 341:14

matters 114:9

Mauer 3:6 11:1

50:7 154:2

175:19 176:3,17

178:7 179:6

241:4 248:19

249:10,13,19

maximum 100:2

193:20 278:21

301:18 323:17

may 20:13 28:9

31:2 33:12 34:2

37:2,3 40:1

45:6,10,13 57:17

70:4 71:1

72:8,9,17 73:3

78:6,12 79:1

83:6 87:19 90:14

99:11 103:20

104:5 105:12,19

106:7 107:5

111:17,19

112:17 115:1

124:20 132:14

139:14 140:3

146:14 148:11

158:7 167:2

172:6,14 174:7

175:18

178:6,9,10,12

179:20 184:21

185:6 188:16

199:13 200:16

206:17 213:10

214:12,16 218:8

224:5 225:22

240:9,19 249:9

251:12 253:6

254:18 260:2

267:1 269:21

271:11,17 281:5

288:8,11,12

290:1 291:5,17

302:9,18 303:19

311:20

318:14,15 320:4

336:5 338:8

342:5

maybe 6:20

22:4,17 24:20

27:17 40:3 41:14

47:8 48:20

51:18,20 54:6

64:18 79:19 80:3

87:17 95:1,21

100:8 102:2,13

119:3 121:16

122:12 130:8

131:3 132:6

140:12,15

142:20 148:10

151:3 152:6

158:4 160:4,6,8

163:1 164:21

165:8 168:22

175:2,15

178:3,11

179:17,19,20

186:8,15 187:7

188:8,19 196:19

217:16,17

222:14 224:14

228:2 235:6

238:16 255:4

262:19 265:17

269:7,22

273:4,15

274:3,21 279:21

287:6,9 291:21

292:3,10,15

293:8 297:19

299:22

305:3,4,7,11,12

308:10 310:21

315:17 317:21

328:7 330:17

331:2 335:3

337:10,12

338:10 339:19

340:9

mean 37:7,9,14,17

38:21 39:9

40:18,20 45:22

50:18 55:17

64:15 83:4 94:16

99:7,19 101:21

103:2 122:16,21

124:20 125:3

127:5,15 130:5

143:17 154:15

155:14 157:19

158:12 159:11

163:6 164:19

169:9 173:15

177:1 181:11,22

182:11,16 183:6

185:16,19

189:18 196:22

199:21 208:1

211:17 216:13

221:14 242:14

255:3 256:3

258:18,20

259:2,18

265:18,19

266:1,13 275:7

287:8,16,21

299:9 304:7

307:18 310:9

320:13 328:18

329:10 330:22

332:3 334:20

338:4 343:13

meaning 212:5

meanings 275:1

means 19:13 44:11

58:15 65:4 76:17

83:7 95:9 96:22

97:15 107:8

110:9 129:5

132:12 148:5,8

149:18 153:18

171:22 194:16

211:18 339:15

meant 83:11

144:12

194:20,22 211:3

222:11,20

270:22

measure

264:11,13,14

278:19

measured 181:20

188:2

measuring 264:17

mechanical 270:6

mechanism 107:6

272:10,11

289:22
Capital Reporting Company

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mechanisms 10:20

290:1

meet 24:22 52:13

163:1,3,15

164:11 174:18

181:20 185:17

257:20 258:12

290:4 313:16

335:18

meeting 4:6

24:16,18 27:7

31:6 44:3 52:9

53:3,10 55:19,20

56:1,2 59:16

60:7 76:5,6 89:5

92:11 94:18

98:21 99:22

122:17 126:6,8

132:1 155:8

162:21 163:8

166:11,15 169:1

171:20

172:4,7,12,13

198:11

220:12,18,20,21

221:4,5,6,9

222:7,20 227:21

228:1,10,14

241:13 263:4

326:12 328:13

329:19

332:19,22

333:12 336:2,4

340:3,13 344:9

345:7

meetings 5:18

16:14,15 20:2

23:13 40:20

59:22 60:1,12

75:22 80:9,10

95:7 96:5 99:22

106:7 162:14

164:18 165:4,10

178:22 181:10

219:8 220:11,12

244:15 331:13

332:1 333:17

meets 59:20 281:3

311:21

Meg 3:15 8:19

73:17 76:9

78:7,15 85:12

86:2 91:12 105:2

129:1,2 171:8

172:19

179:14,15 189:8

191:2 194:13

325:9,18

Meg's 327:11

member 5:19 7:17

8:14 55:14 59:8

70:18,19 71:7

72:10,21 73:1

76:16 77:6 82:18

85:5 90:10 93:21

97:4 98:7,21

99:16 105:17

108:9 119:19

120:21

121:3,14,17

137:1 143:10

195:9 199:14

227:8,20

members 6:21

9:7,11 12:19

17:8 21:9 26:15

31:19,20 60:14

70:15,17

72:7,10,13,17,19

73:9 76:4 78:12

85:1 90:10,18

91:2,10,11 92:13

94:20

96:6,8,17,20

97:13 98:5,10

99:10 101:14,19

102:14 103:18

104:13 105:9,12

106:4 107:15

108:5 110:10

111:13 112:16

113:10 114:11

115:11,18,21

117:8 120:21

125:13

126:6,19,21

134:14,15

135:21,22

138:6,11,18,21

142:18 144:19

145:9,12 149:2

153:20 155:7

160:8 165:3,12

186:20 187:2

195:6,11,14,20,2

2 196:12

199:12,17

221:12 224:5,10

226:15

251:19,20

314:14

membership 71:9

72:4,5 79:16

91:10 94:11

117:9 196:6

mentally 327:2

mention 29:6,17

230:3 284:1

mentioned 34:7

35:3 42:2 58:5,8

62:15 69:20

187:18 199:9

230:7 250:2

310:6 319:5,9

Menzer 3:7 15:16

merged 205:20

met 8:5 34:21 38:8

59:21 166:13

175:2

metal 133:15

method 49:11 67:1

128:7 239:5

273:2

methods 46:12

166:6 209:16

metric 49:12

239:9,10 240:3

257:21

267:17,20

308:15,19

309:9,22 310:3

320:7,17

322:12,13

323:15

metro 332:22

metropolitan

332:20

mic 214:22 217:5

230:21 232:13

233:3,8 235:17

236:8,18 311:14

microphone 59:19

83:15 129:21

174:20 240:15

311:9 329:16

microphones

269:8

mid 22:13 24:5

mid-afternoon

23:7

mid-country-ish

333:17

midday 23:2

mid-day 335:19

middle 80:4 193:3

331:15

midst 63:8

midweek 337:20

mid-week 331:6

341:5

mid-west 332:2

mike 181:17
Capital Reporting Company

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miles 48:22

milestone 174:4

mill 334:5

million 307:1

336:13

millions 7:11 9:22

mind 5:15 91:8

121:11 174:2

242:12 268:10

269:19 289:20

341:20

Mine 337:16

mini 143:20

minimizes 23:21

minimum 92:12

137:15 250:3

258:6 280:20

281:3 287:22

290:3 293:10

minor 76:12

minority 151:1

minus 278:22

minute 202:5

253:1

minutes 65:1,4

237:4,12 333:7

minutia 149:9

219:4

miss 337:15 338:9

missed 55:8 269:7

missing 68:14 91:3

93:4,17 121:13

mixed 16:17 86:10

mixing 203:3

mode 280:2

models 52:17

moderator 107:19

modification

125:1

modifications

208:11 224:6

modified 103:2

modular 264:8

moment 191:6

204:20 290:17

293:9 307:14

339:20

moments 53:20

momentum 5:3

183:18 335:3

momentum's

334:16

Monday 331:7

334:10 339:12

money 36:10

monitored 89:3

monitoring 84:14

87:2

Montana 10:13

11:14

month 172:12,13

174:14 183:16

335:4 336:22

337:2 339:4

343:5,6

months 24:19 25:1

36:14 37:9 59:17

82:21,22 86:7

92:3 122:20

168:21 172:1

175:1 182:15

183:10 189:3,5

254:4 335:4

morning 4:5,10

11:20 12:6 14:20

15:5,14 16:12,17

22:14 24:3,6

25:14 26:12

65:20 134:4

324:22

325:12,13

326:5,11,14

327:12 329:6

330:17 335:18

344:17

mostly 13:7

313:21

mother 82:4

motion 168:17

motor 16:5,8

244:22 245:5

248:2 250:22

251:1

253:10,11,16

255:19

257:5,9,11,16,19

258:2

259:4,8,10,17

260:1,4,6,8

261:6

262:8,11,16

263:5,7,9,12,18

264:5,15

265:8,15

266:1,17

267:2,14

268:3,12,15

269:3,13,14,17

270:5,20

271:3,11,15,19

274:3,4,6,12

276:15 279:2

295:13 297:5,21

298:3,8,10,11

299:5,7,8,15,17,

19 300:20

301:12,17

305:5,13

309:1,5,15,17,20

316:1,3 319:21

320:17

321:20,21

322:11

motors 48:15

253:9,12 255:22

257:8

258:11,16,20

260:11 261:17

279:4 298:8,21

301:3 303:19,21

305:11

321:16,19,22

322:3

mountain 158:21

mounted

243:16,17

mouth 249:7

move 41:10 48:4

51:6 69:13 78:3

104:10 110:4

120:10 188:20

208:3 229:16

343:19

moves 122:8

moving 62:1

69:9,13 70:2

72:6 139:7,13

162:13 166:21

168:18

193:16,22

208:6,16 217:22

220:10 229:20

234:3

multi-million

318:2

multiple 186:18

314:18

multiply 309:21

myself 20:22 21:20

22:11 109:17

N

narrow 206:1

342:15

narrower 204:18
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207:12

Natalia 1:20

346:5,20

national 2:8,21

3:19,20

14:9,14,16 16:3

36:9 48:12 49:4

177:16

226:20,21 227:3

319:15 330:9

331:21

native 330:1

Natural 3:15 8:19

nature 200:15

344:3

Navigant 3:10,16

14:6,12 38:8,18

41:5 52:12

178:21 252:4

273:5 285:16

302:17,21

Navy 13:9

nay 138:11

naysayers 215:9

NDA 41:8 44:2

62:15

neat 321:7

necessarily 33:22

38:20 44:21

143:10 147:20

164:18 192:19

194:15 257:11

266:1,17 270:22

271:17 272:14

273:5 299:9

317:9

necessary 38:22

46:20 56:17

139:8 142:4

169:2 208:12

240:9 280:1

necessity 172:7

173:13 183:18

neck 132:18

NEEA 47:2

neg 201:8

negative 57:10

109:16 112:9,22

114:4 115:15,16

116:1

117:13,17,18

119:7 121:22

123:5,13

124:16,19

125:2,7,9,12

126:12,13

129:6,7

130:12,16,17

131:5

135:1,2,4,9

149:3 155:13

193:22 194:2

195:6,17 197:14

198:19 199:22

200:22 201:8,17

202:7 203:5,21

205:13 206:13

216:12,20

negatively

108:15,17

109:3,7 120:4,15

123:2,3,15

135:21,22

138:19 194:2,11

198:17,19

199:22 216:2

217:4

negatives 126:1

130:6,7,8,12

negotiate 4:16

28:17 46:7 50:10

190:15

negotiated 1:6

4:22 22:13 24:14

29:1 31:15 51:8

54:17 55:18

56:14 59:1 66:16

67:3 103:13

109:11 110:18

183:14 191:20

194:9 197:6,9

203:4 204:3

219:12,13,18

220:19 231:21

341:12 345:6

negotiates 5:15

negotiating 65:16

66:12 139:18

148:18 171:10

176:8 281:6

negotiation 13:18

28:4 31:12 32:21

39:22 40:18

46:14 70:15

75:13 90:2

103:14 110:14

119:12,17

130:21 168:22

173:1 183:17

203:17 236:22

237:19 238:5

276:9 310:16,21

311:3,5

negotiations 12:9

18:18 23:2,7,9

32:21 40:7,12

70:5,7,13 72:8

78:7 79:2 90:1

95:19 105:11

167:3

168:6,19,21

175:16 177:10

178:17

179:18,21 181:3

216:1 232:1

237:15 270:8

negotiation's

237:1

Negotiations 80:5

219:10 226:7

negotiator 194:8

198:16

negotiators 26:15

neither 300:19

346:10

NEMA 258:13

nervous 182:16,19

184:21

net 290:14,20

319:16

network 181:16

neutral

297:4,10,14

NIA 49:14 176:20

nice 24:21 136:13

255:16,17,21

276:8

niceties 57:1 58:9

214:21

night 326:6,16

327:13 335:10

nine 343:6

Ninety 169:19

Ninety-eight

169:17

nodded 142:9

nominated 70:9,14

74:21

nominee 100:14

194:5

non 144:18 147:10

246:9

non-binding 91:17

non-disclosure

38:9 39:8

none 220:18
Capital Reporting Company

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220:3,6

222:6,13,17

223:2,5,16,20

227:6,7

228:5,9,12,17,19

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255:8,15

260:13,14

261:3,11,13,19

267:9 268:1

276:6 291:16

296:20 312:5,6

314:9 321:14

323:19

328:9,12,16

330:1,5 331:20

332:6,14 336:12

roster 228:6

Rotate 331:18

rough 25:18

277:20 314:6

326:2 343:8

rounded 117:10

rounding 105:4

route 115:17

row 300:1,11,12

rule 30:9,19 31:16

33:19 34:12,15

44:16 53:6,11

57:19 69:8 70:4

92:5 136:4

169:11 191:14

193:7 194:9

200:15 203:16

211:16

212:15,19 213:4

257:11 269:20

270:10 287:20

290:15 293:11

313:2 319:10

321:16

341:12,22

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5:6,8,10 14:10

17:11,18 18:14

23:6,8 24:14

28:4,7,8,16

29:6,11 31:7,8

33:11,14,19

34:22 39:13 43:1

46:1 51:9,17

54:17 56:6,15

66:16 67:4

103:13 110:18

136:12 176:6,8

180:7 187:19

191:20 192:15

197:10 200:4,5

203:5,6 204:4

208:10

219:12,13,19

223:14,17

237:14 249:22

250:5 260:9

282:13 284:7

301:22 312:13

313:20 316:15

342:10 345:6

rulemakings 4:22

22:13 28:18

30:12 33:9 55:19

59:1 67:17

109:12 183:14

196:10 220:19

231:21

rules 19:4,7,13,17

22:15,16 23:2,5

29:1,17 32:22

33:8 42:10

57:6,15 58:12,14

65:3 66:15,18,19

67:9,19,22 91:21

95:14 108:11

109:12 131:14

134:6,7 137:6

146:3,12 148:22

173:21 197:22

204:18,22 207:9

224:17 226:4

230:18 238:4,19

ruling 12:18

rulings 44:20

run 7:11 23:15

52:17 62:5

317:11 327:3,6

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running 329:7

runs 177:13 218:5

274:6

rush 185:13

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safe 13:12 344:13

safety 65:21 66:7

sale 47:6

sales 47:5 250:10

251:1 277:20

291:11 309:14

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Sanaee 2:21 14:15

Sarah 3:19 14:8

satisfies 301:20

satisfy 159:7

save 36:10,11

304:22 305:1

322:22

saving 269:3 281:3

savings 9:1 10:6,7

250:11

288:11,14 295:2

320:2,5,10,15

323:6,7,17

saw 73:16 118:9

201:5 304:18

scale 240:7 302:13

318:19

scan 324:9 342:15

scanning 110:3

146:9

scatter 55:20

scenario 180:20

200:1

schedule 23:13

24:16,18 25:20

26:8,21 41:20

60:19 82:21

99:21 162:20

169:1 171:20

172:7,16 183:3

184:6 331:5,7

341:22

scheduled 84:2

105:18 162:16

163:3

schedules 75:18

332:16

scheduling

101:9,11 178:14

schools 339:18

scope 23:6,9 43:1

46:11 47:3,5

50:12 61:21 62:1

136:9 162:4

173:18 174:1

178:13 184:15

202:1 225:18

237:1,14 238:1,4

239:9

240:4,19,20

242:3,6,9,10,13,

17 244:18

245:1,14 246:15

247:3 249:1,21

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251:8,11,16
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283:13 285:14

287:19

293:6,10,16

295:16 296:18

304:3,12 305:9

310:19,22

312:12

313:2,10,12,19

314:1 316:16

324:6 342:2

scopes 180:17

scoping 186:10

247:13

scratch 68:5

scratched 154:12

screen 44:1 204:19

229:16 264:7,12

300:1

scrounge 324:14

se 149:11

seat 71:20

seats 4:3 134:3

second 73:4 80:4

83:5 103:12

110:6 122:19

149:14 150:14

155:6 159:18,20

162:8 165:2

174:13

189:1,2,13,18

191:4 192:21

205:7 209:7

250:7 322:6

325:22 327:22

328:12 330:22

secondary 87:20

Secondly 286:2

317:13

seconds 7:3

second-to-last

222:2

Secretary

136:10,14

203:22

Secretary's 336:16

section 10:10

33:16,17 69:22

85:14 173:18

secured 132:22

security 74:8

132:17,21

133:6,8,13

232:19

seeing 8:15 142:8

174:6 176:6

255:11 324:7

344:9

seem 132:3 163:17

seemed 135:18

156:4 230:4

269:8

seems 26:22 67:4

74:22 128:6

130:14 135:19

142:3 145:19

163:19 178:7

182:15 188:16

199:3 216:13

263:11 269:7

273:12

287:10,11 293:6

301:1 306:1

310:15 320:16

326:15 329:1

seen 156:7 197:13

segment 240:18

select 141:7

self 142:3

sell 259:14

263:4,14 314:17

selling 263:2

284:18

send 88:12 89:4

170:19

190:6,11,12,20

228:8,11 296:16

Seneca 11:22

senior 7:7 147:18

sense 8:16 42:19

50:13 72:8 95:6

103:9 105:21

163:6 167:2

175:21 179:8

183:10 187:4

192:18 215:15

216:3 217:18

246:8 250:9,19

253:19 261:4,8

275:1 321:1,3,11

330:20

sensible 66:22

139:14,21

162:17 163:4

325:5

sensibly 106:14

sensing 274:10

sensitive 319:2

sensor 245:22

sent 232:14 233:1

sentence 80:4

83:5,11 87:17

110:7 149:12,14

150:3,14

154:4,12

155:11,19

159:18,20,22

161:4 162:2,8

165:2 189:1,2

191:19

192:16,21

193:1,11 209:1

221:14 222:2,7

223:11

sentences 157:3

separate

152:10,11,12

264:18

265:11,13 268:5

269:17 282:12

284:7,9,11

322:18

separately 81:2

254:12 264:13

September 170:1

189:19 322:15

sequence 41:19

68:12

series 48:1 119:13

serious 45:9 218:7

seriously 66:7

124:12 312:5

serve 9:7 10:1

70:18,20 71:2

104:7 108:2

140:4 218:5

served 190:1

286:10

serves 311:4

services 253:3

serving 21:11

session 72:11

82:19

sessions 162:15

168:22

sets 182:19 201:8

290:3

setting 261:8

263:10

313:16,22 342:3
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seven 34:10,11

140:16 141:9

150:8 302:13

319:8 342:14

Seventeen 93:5

Seventy 90:3,4

several 7:18 8:5,14

41:15 66:15

73:16 77:22

142:9 232:11

277:11 285:12

shaft 250:21

shape 47:12

shapes 12:4

share 40:3,4 50:1

61:12,18 62:5,15

231:21 232:4,9

233:15 253:6

254:3 281:16

shared 38:9

sharing 50:3

sheet 136:7

171:2,18 175:14

190:3 191:10

193:6,12 194:4

210:8 213:19

sheets 175:17

shelf 321:6

she's 216:22

shield 219:15

shift 331:18

shifting 88:20

297:16

ship 254:11 257:18

301:6

shipment 62:20

shipments 36:8

61:4,8 303:20

308:1 319:16

shipped 253:20

258:1 265:15,16

266:7,8 267:13

304:10

shipping

253:15,16

267:16

ships 265:20

shooting 343:8

shop 65:10 132:10

235:11,12

short 81:11 173:12

242:13

shorthand 123:20

shot 131:10

334:11,12,20

showed 178:22

showing 38:17

255:22

shown 42:3 264:12

295:5

shows 94:9 255:21

267:12 300:2

shy 6:3

sic 225:21

sign 198:16 199:5

328:7

signed 150:12

198:7 201:3

significant 62:16

170:6 193:6

220:22 278:1

288:8,12 302:12

313:14 320:15

332:10

significantly 70:4

254:13

SIKES 351:3,12

similar 11:18 45:9

66:19 109:6

246:19 257:6

283:16

similarly 75:3

simple 111:6

simplistic 297:20

simply 106:14

115:10 141:18

265:7 280:17

298:12

simultaneous 7:1

283:7 306:6

332:4

single 139:2

150:22 243:18

265:11 308:19

320:13

sit 54:16 55:16

56:11,16 336:5

site 231:22 232:4

sitting 6:9 42:6

59:8 67:7 73:13

105:10 139:2

situation 45:13

71:18 127:3

253:14 298:14

299:10

six 24:19 44:19

66:17 140:16

141:9 146:14

168:21,22

183:16 221:8

244:3 335:3

343:5

size 296:22 333:9

sized 241:18,19

sizes 12:4

skewed 286:1

SKU 300:18

slide 198:20

255:10

slides 84:9

224:14,21

225:7,18,22

slips 202:4

sloped 280:1

small 64:15 183:15

240:6 254:14,18

278:15,19

281:2,14 282:10

287:18 288:2,7

305:14

smaller 139:20

141:1 250:18,19

254:9 264:3

270:1 274:16

291:4 298:5

smallest 315:22

smart 48:2

Smith 89:5 228:6

smoothly 218:5

snapshot 36:12

snowstorm 97:21

soda 235:13

software 85:10

87:4

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254:10,15,18

255:17,18,19,20

260:18 265:7

268:3 269:17

270:2,19,20

271:6 276:11,13

277:12 281:4

285:20 286:22

297:2,9 303:21

306:22 307:1

313:15 316:1

solicited 31:19
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Solutions 2:3

solved 167:17

somebody 87:3

102:6 121:12

182:19 200:4

317:5

somehow 102:20

someone 26:3,5,11

66:22 86:14 87:6

102:7,9,10 107:2

115:6 119:7

156:13 189:8

202:5 209:2

218:22 220:21

277:8 315:11

326:1 332:7

345:1

somewhat 137:7

203:13 206:17

249:2 284:20

342:16

somewhere 12:11

118:17 168:6

169:15 221:7

223:6 241:21

255:11 341:5

sooner 283:2

sorry 38:6 48:8

94:2 105:1

126:14 127:9

154:20 164:13

169:16 176:2

181:16 206:9,19

211:14 239:22

246:22 341:1

sort 18:3 19:5

23:20,22 27:8

35:12 40:17

47:22 51:21 52:3

54:9 55:16

61:14,20 65:15

94:13 103:16

111:8 118:5,12

119:3,14 132:18

149:8 156:15

158:2 164:15

169:5 171:10,11

185:4 186:13

190:10 201:1,7

219:17 221:20

224:22 225:11

228:3 265:1

267:19 290:2,12

298:15 304:2

312:21 328:6

343:6

sorts 21:14 55:21

66:19 259:4

269:21

sought 119:18

sound 16:16

sounded 143:8

sounds 46:18

140:10 151:9

159:4 179:20

287:8

sources 35:8 308:5

Southern 9:20,22

space 290:19

291:2,7 336:5

344:21

span 92:2 103:21

242:13

speak 6:3 59:11

87:9 194:2,10

239:3 262:19

278:16,21

SPEAKER 170:7

327:5 337:4,16

338:16 339:8,21

340:5

speaking 7:1 34:1

42:1 95:21

105:10 155:20

199:22 225:17

273:19 283:8

306:6 332:5

speaks 191:9

201:1

spec 290:7

322:9,11

speced 289:9

specialized 246:10

specialty 107:12

specific 38:1 68:17

139:15

157:9,12,13,18

173:14 191:19

225:7 244:19

256:14 273:13

308:9 323:21

341:19

specifically 19:3

37:17 238:7

271:18 319:4

340:9

specifications

299:18 322:8

specificity 158:3

specifics 33:4

specifies 299:18

309:4

specify 92:7 145:3

152:8 154:7

157:20

specs 290:7

spectrum 110:13

294:16

speculating 172:6

speed 88:19

259:10 266:18

268:13,15,16,17

269:2 272:13

274:6 279:20

280:2 295:21

320:11,14

spend 7:10

63:18,19,21

spending 237:11

spent 55:19

spills 256:2 269:4

312:17

spirited 344:3

split 64:13 127:20

156:8 166:15

254:22 298:6

spoke 41:15

299:13

spoken 308:14

sponsoring 75:4

spot 64:19 180:15

spots 103:14 222:1

spring 339:16,17

sprit 344:10

squeeze 328:2

staff 5:18 21:1

146:17 147:15

151:2 177:13

193:10

stage 243:18

287:13,17

stairs 133:5

stairwell 66:4

stairwells 66:3

stakeholders 35:8

249:3

stand 14:3 108:16

276:16

standard 34:2,3,5

35:13,19 46:3

50:14 53:7 79:4

137:2,3 171:8

173:7,10 180:8
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192:19 194:3,9

197:2

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211:12,20 212:8

213:16,17 246:9

257:13,21 258:6

265:21 268:5

270:10 271:10

272:6 276:14

280:7,16

282:15,17

285:8,10,12,15

287:2 290:2

297:4,11,13,16

301:22

309:2,4,11,17

321:21 323:12

standardized

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11:2,7 13:4

17:1,11,18

28:7,17

30:13,14,15,21,2

2 31:8

33:9,14,18,22

34:8 35:11 45:1

76:8 116:22

117:4 136:8

171:7 173:5,15

192:9 193:19

197:13 239:13

258:13 261:8

265:19

275:3,12,13

276:2 279:16,19

289:12,15

293:13 314:1

342:4,21

standpoint 42:15

94:16 156:8

289:12

Starr 3:12 11:10

26:20 47:1

86:4,21 88:1

94:15 95:1,6

104:15,20

107:10

118:2,12,15

122:11 123:9,12

128:13 131:17

135:14 156:7

157:7 160:12

164:3 165:21

166:7 186:12

187:9 188:12

198:21 224:13

225:6,14 304:20

306:3,6,21

307:17 309:19

310:2 329:5

start 4:4,12 22:3

23:14 24:10,20

35:1 36:3 46:10

54:20 60:18

65:2,12 66:20

82:11 95:8 119:6

127:6 132:1

167:14 170:1

179:9 181:9

185:11 249:2

255:14 292:4,12

316:19 318:15

321:11

324:16,21

325:12 326:1,10

327:8,12

328:13,14

329:19,20

330:21 334:17

338:14 342:11

344:16

started 49:21

77:15 168:19

291:20 292:19

325:13,19 327:1

starting 25:14

54:21 67:3

180:21 181:3

285:11 287:21

291:22 292:8

321:20,21 328:1

starts 184:4 245:2

state 11:5,7 213:3

239:1 266:22

287:11 316:15

319:3

stated 69:2 89:18

90:18 109:7

121:22 138:18

316:16

statement 68:13

70:1 130:11

193:5,17,18

203:12 266:13

286:4 323:9

statements 106:8

200:13,14 219:9

states 8:2 9:6,8

10:13 64:7

253:18 280:4,7

284:5 285:10

stating 154:5

320:20

stations 64:15

status 81:4,19

146:20

statute 33:15

110:18 136:22

220:1 257:15

275:5

statutory 30:11

201:7 203:14

208:9 313:15

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steam 260:18

270:3 297:6

steel 55:22

steering 11:3

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111:15 133:6

147:11 187:13

274:19

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steps 33:13 35:21

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Steve 3:11,13 9:3

15:9 25:4,6

36:19,20 55:17

59:13,14 62:7,8

73:17 75:15,16

79:6,7 83:10

93:14,15,20

96:2,3 97:5

98:12,17,18

101:6 116:19,20

126:4 133:2

137:13 140:7,8

141:12 145:5,6

147:15,16

151:6,7 163:4,5

168:4 171:8

172:20 179:13

180:4,5 184:20

187:18

188:21,22 189:8

191:2 192:7

194:13 195:3,4

196:8 199:9

201:13,19,20

206:17

208:21,22

210:10

211:13,14

213:11 219:3

222:5,11,17

227:6,7 228:1

255:7,8

260:13,14

267:7,8,9 269:18

276:5,6

291:15,16

292:17
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330:18 337:22

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70:6,16 71:3

streamlining

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strike 80:3,5

219:18

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strongly 150:12

struck 67:10

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stuff 48:20 49:2

91:4 106:4

123:15 127:16

132:22 136:9,15

139:7 154:11

190:22 198:19

253:5,16 261:22

262:8 264:16

306:7 324:2

329:7 332:11

334:16

sub 13:9 48:17

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140:3 147:12

subclass 305:14,15

subcommittee

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subgroup 140:1,9

141:13,14,18

143:16,17,18,20

144:2,7

145:7,9,12,18

146:3,13

147:1,6,20

148:3,16,18

149:2,7,13,15,18

150:4,19

151:9,16,18,19,2

2 152:11

153:3,18 155:4,7

157:10,14,21

158:4 160:7

162:5,14,20

164:12,13

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187:8,9,16 236:2

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subgroups

142:1,16

145:3,14,22

148:20

152:12,15 154:5

157:5,19 158:7

162:8 165:13

166:4,10,14

185:17

subject 74:20

324:6

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submitted 190:2

203:16 208:9

subsequent 228:10

Subsequently

31:14

subset 287:18,19

substance 194:4

213:18

substantially

141:6

substitute 72:9

102:3 103:4

substituting 73:11

subtlety 22:20

Subway 132:10,15

sub-working

46:17

success 175:9

successful 46:21

167:9

suction 243:18,19

250:7

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sudden 113:18

155:10

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sufficient 22:22

68:15 162:11

sufficiently 24:4

260:4

suggest 35:12 56:9

67:1 91:6 94:22

104:15 132:15

160:3 179:17

180:10 181:4

185:8 187:6

189:18 204:8

339:13

suggested 100:6

125:1 130:4

244:11

suggesting 26:20

92:10 139:22

159:9 184:5,6

207:11 228:2

262:1 305:4

324:12 335:7

suggestion 114:6

132:14 149:5

154:3 156:4

231:1 250:16

291:2

suggestions

290:21

suggests 80:2 97:5

Summaries

220:18

summarily 286:11

summarize 135:8

156:14 249:4,19

summary 41:5

89:15 220:22

221:4,5 222:8,20

223:12 225:4

summer 86:5

293:15 329:9

Sunday 339:10

superhuman

183:11

supplement 75:6

supplied 272:4

303:4

suppliers 290:7

supplies 269:12

316:4
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supply 269:13,14

303:1

support 11:19

32:10,20 37:15

91:1,6 146:17

147:12,17,18

148:2 156:19

176:5 199:7

208:17 211:10

216:6 242:11

286:4 319:13

supported 99:16

249:21

supporting

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Commercial and Industrial Pumps Negotiated Rulemaking Working Group 12-18-2013

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