Declassified and approved for release by NSA on 04-29 2014 pursuant to E .o. 1352a 
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Name: 

• REF ID: A6538-

FIRST DET.i\lL"CD .;nt.t:ERROGAnON OF 

St.:Mt'\RUGHI , Giuseppe 

SAWJWGHI, Giuseppo 

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• 

Function: 

Interrogated: 

General Mana"9r of' UATSON-ITliLIANA Soc,.1\n. 

Did statistical work for SD4 Crypto Seo. 

CSDIC, CMF, 27 Nov ~ and 18 Jan 4-5 

1 .. PREAMBLE 

Souroe is the General Ma.na.~er of 1 W .. \TSON-ITALI~\Nll Soc.An. (late HOLLERITH 

IT1.LI.i • .NA.), an Italian f'irm, which was the subsidl.al"Y' comp~ of the U&\. \l/ATBONKOLLERITH combine, manufacturers of electrically operated pun.chin~ card: cal.cul.a.tin~ 

an'l s-:;atist1cal machines, He 1s a "Doctor of Ec'Jnomic Sciences" from the University 

cf VENICE and has worked hard to develope t-be fl.I'm' s business in IT.t.LY, He served 

1~ the Ital~an 1.rtiller,y and, at the be~innin13. of this war, was oalled up to his 

r~;;11!:.ent, In Sep or Oct 42 be was called awey f'rOM his unit anti reported to SIM 

Crypto Se-, where he was 1nstructed to return to bis ROME office {1, Via Vittorio 

V:CI:lE'?O) to prepare for work of a technical nature which was goi.ru! to be carried out 

by SIM Crypti:> Sec, Work did not start at once (see CSDIC/CMF/Y 4); ~phanics from 

th~ f1rm' s factory did not arr'J.ve from m..t.IN' till Feb 43, expert technical advice 

~r:Jm GERML\."'1Y took.. tlJDe to mater1a1.1ee, etc. 1 and only little work had cecn done by 

9i:ne time of the Italian 1il'IDJ.Stice, Dur'l.llJS the winter of 1943-44 the Germans in ROME 

t"t"1ed to. -Jbta1n machines f'rom Source's fl.rlD (see below) wh1cb the latter tried to 

pr0vent, without euccass. He was arrested ab')ut 20 Nov 43 and SQOn after released. 

Source stayed 1n ROME till the occupation of the .city by the 1\llies, 

Source could supply f'ew details beyond those given by BIGI and SCUDERI 

(cf' .CSDIC/C:MF/_Y 4, App "A" paras o.d. and e., and Y 8, pa_.ra 2.A .. )_on the work carried 

ot..L :for SIM Cr,ypto Sec. He conf'i.nned information g1ven by the 8./m sc>U.rces, especially 

relTB.:'d"Jng the restr10ted amount of work carried out in new of the fact that ~t was c ' started rather late in the war. 

, 

3. INFORMATION ON WATSUN-HOLLERITH MACHINES 

.). ' 

Aooord1ng_ to Source thelf" ma.chines were first patented by HOLLt:RITH in 

USA. The conoerh, however, rg:-ew under the able leadership of WATSON, who became 

President of the Board of Directors and changed the name of the f'irm. Firms ~~e.nufaoturing and either selling or hir'lng out these machine~ for statistical and 

•ac~ou."lte.ncy work were formed in most industrial cowitr1es in the world. In ITALY, 

the Head Office 1s in ROME (1, Via V1ttor10 VENETO) and the factory at MILAN. Source 

chd not know what happened to the factory after the .Armistice, In GERMANY, the 

Oompe.ey" was called IEtn'OOHE HOLLERITH MAOOHINBN GESELLSCHAFT, and had a f'actor,y or 

f'aotor1es at BERLIN, and later at SIND.ELFilTGEN, near STUTTG.AH.r. The German-made 

l

tabulat1ng maohine of' the type D-11 (numerical.,!!!! alphabetical tabulating machilie) 

imported to ITALY for use by SIM Crypto Sec was me.de at BERLIN or SINIELFINGEN. The 

Ital1ans also imported a couple of' h'J.gh-speed "reprodu.c1ng..ipuno.h" m99hines from 

Gi!:RIWiY i'or the same purpose, ACcording to Source all German maohl.lles were copies 

of' tl-iose made in USA. 

4. WATSON-HOLLERITH MA.CHINES TAKEN FROM ITALY TO GERMANY 

' ' 

(a) ~ r 

Source was 1ntormed on or a.bout 20 Nov 43 that by order ot the RUIC 

(Reiclisministerium fuer Ruestung und Y'.riegsproduktion) representative in RO.ME, Major 

QUIK,, all WATSON'"-HOLLERITH machines in ROME were to be requis:3-tioned and dispatched 

to GERMANY by 1 Dec 43, App "A" gives a list of macb1nery wh£0h the RUK oompelled 

the WATSO?f-ITALIANA to hand over to forwarding agents for dispatch tq :MIL.AN. Souro& 

o:.>airt.:ains that his a..."'Test on 20 Nov 43 (see para 1) was oaITied out in order to compel 

r::i.'!l to d1sclose the information regarding machinery and personnel oapa.ble of working it. 

/Source maintained ' 
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. ... • REF ID:A?5383. 

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Sou.roe m.a1nta1ne4 that he and the forwarding 'agents managed to delay 

the dispatch of the m&0hlnery by pleading shortage of packing materials,, first telling 

the Germans they had na wood for the oases and then reporting they bad no nails, eta. 

The matter dra~ed on auccesstully till liar 44-, when a Capt RCY.IBE (German Ar!q) from 

RUK oailed to see ,them about it, and they decided that, the machinery "had" to be sent 

awa:y. Between 1 .a.na 3 Mar 4lf. SS ORs called at the place in ROME where the machinery 

was stored and loaded it onto trucks and then took it to the ry stn at OSTIA. The 

r:f trucks - five in all - stayea. at OSTIA stn till about 9 liar 44- when an air raid 

took place., Either during this raid, or durina the raids which followed, om. of the 

five trucks was hit and the 1J1&Chins17 loaded on it destroyed. The remaining trucks 

T1e~e eventually sent to GERMANY about Apr 44 (NOT to MILAN as inte-nded at f'irst) via - ' \ CAMOOIA, near .AREZZO. 

Source was given a X'eoeipt for the requisitioned ma.ohines. At App "A" 

is an extract of the receipt. (See also para 7). , 

{b) FLORENCE 

Source bas heard ainoc the Allied ooQ.upation of FLORENCE that Ma;ior 

QUimi ..requisitioned, on the 29 Jun 44, maohinery belonging to WATSON-IT.ALI.W. and 

,.hired out to the State Railways., Electricity Works, etc,, in that town, 

(c) MILAN 

e I ' Souroe knows / that since the Armistice the WATSON-ITALIANA factory at 

MILAN has been requisitioned by the Germans. However, he-oarmot say whether the 

Germans continued to work _this f'actor,y and. manufacture machines on the spot, or 

whether they aismantled installations and shipped them to GERMANY. 

Accora.£ng to Source the factor,y oan turn out the following types of' 

machines: Perforati~, figure-type ("perforatrioe, tipo n\IJlerico") 

Duplicating figure-type ("dupl'l.catrioe, tipo numerieo") 

Tabulators (50% Df Italian .reguirementss the rest had to be imported 

• from GEmtA.l« or USA) , 

Items whioh the factori at MILAN cannot turn out are: the apparatus 

tor feeding the cards into the selector ~"selezionatrice") machines, and pr111ting 

machinery for (?) tabill.ators. 

5, NOTE ON FORJ.4&ION OF SID (cf csmo/OMF/Y 4, para 4,A.) 

Source had. little in:f'm' on the subject except the following points, 

About end Sep or beg Oct 43 he was apNOached by Col COS!4AOINI 9J1d aske~ to work for 

SID, which he refused. When he was arrested - about 20 Nov 43 ,. and kept at REGINA 

~OELI Erison (RO.ME) for three dqs, he was asked by an SS sJt if he knew BIGI, 

Source thou~t that perhaps the SS sJt ar.resting him had been 1Dld to find out where 

111.BIGI was, beca'llse the Genians wanted him • ... (, 

6. IESTRUCTION OF CRYP!'OGRAIHIO !QRKING PAPERS I CARDS, ETC I I I ~ ,,. -'.-/Source stated that by order of Snl Crypto Seo ALL eards, papers, eto., 

used in c,flilnect10n with work on codes and oiphers were destroyed a dq or so after 

the Ital!an Armistice (8 Sep 43). - I 

7. ITALIAN NAVY - SIS DEPr - MAQH[NES FQR CRXP.rOGlbrnllC WORK 

.Appendix ''B", a translation of a copy letter .requisitioning ma.chines hired 

out by WATSON-ITfJ:.IANA to the Italian Navy, gives an indl.Dation of theWI>es of' maohi:ne-s 

used by the SIS Dept. 

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·~xtt· ' ~)>' ,J ..,., ... I 

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REF ID:A65383 

L.t • • 

8. P.EROON~\LITIES 

Capt SCHENKE 

:Major QUIEL Bruno 

" .. ' 

- 3 -

OSDIC/CMF/r 29. 

~loyea by DEU.NDIE HOIJ.iERITH MASCHINEN GESELLOOHAF'.r and given Arar! rank while working for OKW. 

Came to ROME in 4-3 and instracted Source on 

employmnt of machim s for oryptogt"aphic work 

(cf CSDIO/m1IF /I 4., App 11/1.11 ' para a.. ) .. 

"Hauptgruppenleiter" in Reporting and Re aearcll on 

Jla.ohirier,y in RUK (IN MASCHINELIEN BERICHTWESSN JES 

REICHSMINISTERS FtER RUESTUNG UND KRIEGSPRODUKTION). 

Had HQ at ltfiLiiN till Jun 44 at lea.st. , 

Kriegs-Verwaltungsra.t I/o or U> ot RUK for procurement of tpt in 

KIK:HBERG connection with maohimry reguisitioned by Hermans 

Lt (NaV',Y')(Kaptlt) 

von IEWINSKI 

C. S.D.I.C., 

c.1r.F .. , 8 Feb 1945. . 

-, ' 

.... 

in IT.1U.Y. 

I/o HQ (DIENSTSTELtENI.iEITER) , German L1aison Staff 

at Italian Naval Mini stey • BOME. 

' 

--

, f....G.B._ 

ftJ l ~ r:l,fa~' tf,~..,. 

~' (R.P.F. EDWARDS) 

Lt-COl •• 

comdt, csmc, me . , 

... 

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• REF ID:A653ii 

...,. 

A'l?P.lmDIX 11 A" 

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' , Th:Ls schedule is a S'LJIDD8.:r,/ of WATBm•HOiiLERITH equipment requiai t1oned by the RUK repre sen ta ti ve in ROME from the WATSON-ITALIANA offices in 

1 Via v. Veneto, i.he Ist1tuto Naz1onale delle Ass1cura.z1oni, and the ItaU..,ble office. 

In addition RUK also requisitioned various machines from the Statistics Office ~t 

ROME University, the Aesicu1"14zioni d1Italia, the Contedeiaz1on.e Lavoiatori dell' 

Industria, the Govemo:r;.ate Tax Office and the Istituto Nazionale ]ascista dell.a 

Previdenza Sociale. (about 13-14 in all, mainly tabulators, duplicators and selectont•) 

scription of :Machine 

'l'&bul.ators,numerical type IV 

Selecto~(horizontal) 

electors(horizontal) ~ contact-governed 

Selectorsfhorizontal) 

a with sorting device 

,_,Reprodlio1ng-punch(German mD.de) 

Nos 510-0267 & 510-0268 

erforators,alpha.betioal, 

non-printing 

erfore.tors/duplicators 

(motor-driven} 

ll1pl1cators (motor-driven) 

Per.forntors (motor--driven) 

eproducing/verif'yers, 

with 45 control settings 

TabulAtor,alphabet1cal1ATFS 

64(or 80) oontacts,apeed S0/150 

Ver1:f'yers(checkl.llg),alp:ba.bet1cal 

Pertore.tors/duplicators1 

alphabetical, non-printing 

rf'ore.tors,coll.a.tlllg (sunml\rising 

ltiplyl.n8 ll1plicators, semi-automitic 

Pertorators,electrical 

Verifyers(checlo.ng)mecho.nical 

Pertora.tore, mechanical 

for 45 cols cards 

for 80 " " Duplicntors,co~lAting 

(sunmr.ris1ng)nlphAbet1cal 

pl1catoraanlphabet1cal 

non-pr1nt:i:og 

eri:f'y~rs(checkl.ng)hand-driven 

rtore. tors 1 hand-drl. ven 

rtorators,alphabetical,printing 

"Interpreting', ,alph!lbeticnl 

Tabul.ators1 type 3-B 

Tabul.ators,num~rical,type D-11 

ll1plicators,collE'ting(sumnnrJ.sing) 

for tabulator type D-11 

From WATSONITALIANA 

1 Via V • Veneto 

ROME 

1 

6 

2 

1 

2 

4 

1 

·3 • 

1 

1 

4 

2 

1 

'\ 

3 

2 

4 

4 

1 

FrCID Istituto 

Nazionale delle 

AaeiCU1'B:•1oni, 

ROME 

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2 

1 

2 

1 

2 

3 

1 

2 

l+ 

l+ 

2 

9 

1 

1 

From ITA.LCA'BDJ. 

ROME 

J 

l+ 

1 

9 

1 

1 

1 

1 

2 

1 

1 

1 

section S:nd 1 section 1 relays etc.and a access9ries. 

NOTE& Only a small }lBrt of the nach1nea listed in Col 'l above were used tor work 

---- for SIM crypto Sec according to requirements. 

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n!Pm·W 

CSDIO/OlYrG 29 

"' Translation from ItaliD.n of copy-letter received by WATSON•ITALIANA S.J~. 

:from German NAVY LIAISON HQ, ROME 

Deutscher Verbindungastab beim 

Ital.l.larine :Milll.sterium. 

( GEI&A.N LIAISQI; STAFF o. t 

ITALIAN NA.VAL MINISTRI) 

Messrs. 

WATSON•IT.ltLIANA S.A. 

1 via V.Veneto,ROME. 

ROME 21 Oct 43. 

We certify that we have tE'.ken over today 1'ran the Italian Naval 

Ministry, S...I.S.Dept, f'oll0W1Z1g the agreement roached w:ith Acbm.:ral v~\BOLI and 

• 00.'.i>t DE :t.iroNTE, the undermenb.oned uaclunes, Hollenth system, whioh are your e Ji?ropert~. The machines will be consigned by us directly to the Gel111\n Admiialty 

( CJB.ERICGll{u\NDO ~ KRIEGSlviARINE) B'EBLIN. 

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1. One speeial selector nnchl.ne, No ~308o-1201, specio.11.y constiucted 

by your factory tor the particular requir&Ments of the S,I.S. : 

double feeding of Hollenth c.."l.rds 1 device tor slfting Cllt given 

cards by mans of simlta.neous reo.ding of (over) 160 columns 

(i.e. 2 cards of' 80 cols each), complete with f'ollornng aocessor.i.es: (sec also des~atch bill 1311712): 

1 tarpaulin cOV"er _ 

2 selec:tors (•tselettori d;i. cJAsse") 

1 rel.dy ("rel.ais a collo d' oca") 

!,. contact rollers ( 11Nlli di contatto41 ) , 

2 bake 11 te ca.rd'-holders ("pm aaa e~de") 

2. Two contact frames ( 0 pE1.nnelli di connessione~)nos.43903-0220 

and 43903-0224 mth 90 long. 440 medium and 25 very short 

? lc:nds ("spine"), and 65 ? (''oavallotti 11 ). 

3. Two perf'o:rators/duplicators, motor-driven, nos.43016-0175 and 

43016-01731 complete with table, wooden cn.b1nets and cardholders. 

4. One electrical circuits blueprint a.nd ono hAndbook describing 

running of selector :ma.chine~ 

,5-.. Three special pa.eking cases for o./m Jn!l.Ch111es. 

Concerning the rent ot mchines listed above, plooso oonta.ct 

lUltil 31 Oct 43 the Itnli.:in llavo.1 Ministry as llrl'llnged lVith capt DE MONTE, whl.le 

f'ror.i 1 Nov !t-3 you a.re requested to get into touch direct]3 \lith tho f OberkommD.ndo der Kriegsmarine • 

+ 

• 

Kllptlt and Dienststellenleitor 

( von Lmdnald.) 

Ita.linn text is a t~nsle.tion frClll the Gem.an original. 

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