{"id":407409,"date":"2022-06-03T12:33:00","date_gmt":"2022-06-03T16:33:00","guid":{"rendered":"https:\/\/www.nasa.gov\/podcasts\/%series%\/spacesuits-and-rovers\/"},"modified":"2023-10-05T10:25:49","modified_gmt":"2023-10-05T14:25:49","slug":"spacesuits-and-rovers","status":"publish","type":"podcast","link":"https:\/\/www.nasa.gov\/podcasts\/houston-we-have-a-podcast\/spacesuits-and-rovers\/","title":{"rendered":"Spacesuits and Rovers"},"author":43,"featured_media":438623,"template":"","meta":{"nasa_hds_core_meta_l10n":"en-US","nasa_hds_core_meta_article_editor":"","nasa_hds_core_meta_article_contacts":[],"nasa_hds_core_meta_article_topic":"","nasa_hds_core_meta_linked_locations":[],"nasa_hds_core_meta_article_related_articles":[],"hds_migrate_meta_pr_release_id":"","hds_migrate_meta_pr_release_type":"","nasa_hds_core_meta_location_x":"","nasa_hds_core_meta_location_y":"","nasa_hds_core_meta_gallery_images":[]},"categories":[],"series":{"id":12716,"title":"Houston We Have a Podcast","link":"https:\/\/www.nasa.gov\/podcasts\/houston-we-have-a-podcast\/"},"internal-terms":[],"coauthors":[8384],"parsely":{"version":"1.1.0","meta":{"@context":"https:\/\/schema.org","@type":"NewsArticle","headline":"Spacesuits and Rovers","url":"https:\/\/www.nasa.gov\/podcasts\/houston-we-have-a-podcast\/spacesuits-and-rovers\/","mainEntityOfPage":{"@type":"WebPage","@id":"https:\/\/www.nasa.gov\/podcasts\/houston-we-have-a-podcast\/spacesuits-and-rovers\/"},"thumbnailUrl":"https:\/\/www.nasa.gov\/wp-content\/uploads\/2022\/06\/ep._247_spacesuits_and_rovers.jpg?w=150&h=150&crop=1","image":{"@type":"ImageObject","url":"https:\/\/www.nasa.gov\/wp-content\/uploads\/2022\/06\/ep._247_spacesuits_and_rovers.jpg"},"articleSection":"General","author":[{"@type":"Person","name":"Heidi Lavelle"}],"creator":["Heidi Lavelle"],"publisher":{"@type":"Organization","name":"NASA","logo":"https:\/\/www.nasa.gov\/wp-content\/themes\/nasa\/assets\/images\/nasa-logo.svg"},"keywords":[],"dateCreated":"2022-06-03T16:33:00Z","datePublished":"2022-06-03T16:33:00Z","dateModified":"2023-10-05T14:25:49Z"},"rendered":"<meta name=\"parsely-title\" content=\"Spacesuits and Rovers\" \/>\n<meta name=\"parsely-link\" content=\"https:\/\/www.nasa.gov\/podcasts\/houston-we-have-a-podcast\/spacesuits-and-rovers\/\" \/>\n<meta name=\"parsely-type\" content=\"post\" \/>\n<meta name=\"parsely-image-url\" content=\"https:\/\/www.nasa.gov\/wp-content\/uploads\/2022\/06\/ep._247_spacesuits_and_rovers.jpg?w=150&h=150&crop=1\" \/>\n<meta name=\"parsely-pub-date\" content=\"2022-06-03T16:33:00Z\" \/>\n<meta name=\"parsely-section\" content=\"General\" \/>\n<meta name=\"parsely-author\" content=\"Heidi Lavelle\" \/>","tracker_url":"https:\/\/cdn.parsely.com\/keys\/nasa.gov\/p.js"},"read_time":41,"featured_image":{"id":438623,"file":"https:\/\/www.nasa.gov\/wp-content\/uploads\/2022\/06\/ep._247_spacesuits_and_rovers.jpg","title":"Houston We Have a Podcast Ep. 247 Spacesuits and Rovers","alt":"Houston We Have a Podcast Ep. 247 Spacesuits and Rovers","caption":""},"season":1,"episode":247,"audio":{"id":439669,"file":"https:\/\/www.nasa.gov\/wp-content\/uploads\/2023\/07\/ep247_spacesuits_and_rovers_0.mp3","meta":{"dataformat":"mp3","channels":2,"sample_rate":44100,"bitrate":128079.6588063439,"channelmode":"joint stereo","bitrate_mode":"vbr","codec":"LAME","encoder":"LAME3.100","lossless":false,"encoder_options":"--preset fast standard -b32 --lowpass 18500","compression_ratio":0.09075939541265866,"fileformat":"mp3","filesize":42086322,"mime_type":"audio\/mpeg","length":2629,"length_formatted":"43:49","title":"Podcast Ep247_1","year":"2022","recording_time":"2022","track_number":"1"}},"content":{"rendered":"<p><img src=\"https:\/\/www.nasa.gov\/wp-content\/uploads\/2022\/06\/spacesuits_and_rovers_-_thumbnail.jpg\" alt=\"Houston We Have a Podcast Ep. 247 Spacesuits and Rovers\" width=\"320\" height=\"320\" \/><\/p>\n<p>From Earth orbit to the Moon and Mars, explore the world of human spaceflight with NASA each week on the official podcast of the Johnson Space Center in Houston, Texas. Listen to in-depth conversations with the astronauts, scientists and engineers who make it possible.<\/p>\n<p>On Episode 247, Lara Kearney explains the goals of a new program at NASA that is working with industry and international partners on future spacesuits and rovers. This episode was recorded on May 23, 2022.<\/p>\n<p>NASA recently selected Axiom Space and Collins Aerospace to advance spacewalking capabilities in low-Earth orbit and at the Moon. Learn more <a class=\"Hyperlink SCXW253516829 BCX9\" href=\"https:\/\/www.nasa.gov\/press-release\/nasa-partners-with-industry-for-new-spacewalking-moonwalking-services\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noreferrer noopener\">here<\/a>.<\/p>\n<p><img src=\"https:\/\/www.nasa.gov\/wp-content\/uploads\/2021\/09\/hwhap_logo_2021.jpg\" alt=\"HWHAP Logo 2021\" width=\"320\" height=\"320\" \/><\/p>\n<p><strong>Transcript<\/strong><\/p>\n<p><strong>Gary Jordan (Host):<\/strong> Houston, we have a podcast! Welcome to the official podcast of the NASA Johnson Space Center, Episode 247 \"Spacesuits and Rovers.\" I'm Gary Jordan, I'll be your host today. On this podcast, we're bringing the experts, scientists, engineers, and astronauts, all to let you know what's going on in the world of human spaceflight. On this episode we're going to be introducing a new program at NASA that's overseeing the development of the next boot prints and tire tracks that we'll soon be seeing on the lunar surface. The program is called Extravehicular Activity and Human Surface Mobility Program, or EHP, and its mission is to work with industry and international partners to help develop the next generation of spacesuits for low-Earth orbit and for the Moon, as well as the next generation of lunar rovers. The guest is the program's manager, Lara Kearney. We had her on the podcast before to talk about the Gateway program, of which she spent a few years as its deputy manager. But today we're diving into the design of this new program and some big milestones that are already underway. So let's get right into it. Enjoy.<\/p>\n<p>[Music]<\/p>\n<p><strong>Host:<\/strong> Lara Kearney, thank you so much for coming on Houston We Have a Podcast today.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Lara Kearney:<\/strong> Thanks for having me. I'm glad to be here.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Host:<\/strong> So last we talked, funny enough, you were here to talk about starting a new program, and that's what we're going to do today. You did the Gateway program and, and now, we're going to be talking about this new EHP program. Seems like you're a pro at this at this point.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Lara Kearney:<\/strong> Yeah. You know, I realize I really like the early startup phases: I love the strategy, I love team building, I've just, you know, I'm drawn to it and have kind of gotten a little good at it over the time. So yeah. So here we go. Another opportunity.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Host:<\/strong> I think so. So yeah, we, when we talked, it was, the program that we were talking about, was the program was at its infancy, it was the Gateway program. And a lot of time has passed since we last talked; you were, you were really just getting, getting the program itself off its feet, growing the team, you know, make it, and you've passed a lot of milestones since then. What has happened in your tenure as the deputy manager of, of Gateway? Where did you, where did you leave the program off?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Lara Kearney:<\/strong> Yeah, I started, you know, kind of shifting my time over to this new program last fall, but the, the Gateway program they are just really, really moving at this point. They have all of their major elements on contract now...<\/p>\n<p><strong>Host:<\/strong> Wow.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Lara Kearney<\/strong>:...which is huge, right? So that means people are really moving and heading into the design work and starting to cut metal, right? So having all of the contracts in place is a big deal. They are actually holding, just this week, what they're calling their PDR (preliminary design review) synch review, so all these elements are kind of coming together into a preliminary design review level of, of detail. So major milestone for them.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Host:<\/strong> Yeah.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Lara Kearney:<\/strong> And last I checked they're still on target to launch PPE-HALO (Power and Propulsion Element, Habitation and Logistics Outpost) in the November 2024 timeframe. So...<\/p>\n<p><strong>Host:<\/strong> Fantastic.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Lara Kearney:<\/strong>...so they're cooking over there. Yep.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Host:<\/strong> Can you -- it's, it's, it's really wild to think about that. We were talking about starting a program and now you're talking about launching hardware, you're talking about launching actual things. So that's, you're right, it's a fast, fast-moving kind of program. And it seems to be, that seems to be the model that we see nowadays is all these very fast-moving things happening.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Lara Kearney:<\/strong> Yep. I think so. Yeah. I, when I was asked to take on this new program, I'm kind of modeling it after Gateway, right? A lot of kind of the lean management structures that kind of helps with efficient and quick decision making. So yeah, a lot of the lessons learned from the first three years of standing up Gateway, we're bringing into this new program.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Host:<\/strong> So you said you've been in the new program since fall. So when they approached you, when you, when you said, you know what I think I'm ready to take on this challenge, what were some of the, your thoughts thinking about OK, you know, I, I've been working on Gateway for a while, it's, it's I think I can apply a lot of what we've done with the, with an, and make it even better for, for this next go around. What were some of the things going through your head?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Lara Kearney:<\/strong> Yeah, I was kind of excited. I, I actually come from an EVA background, one of my, my first job, 30 years ago when I stepped on-site Johnson Space Center was related to spacesuits and the human element and physiological testing and spacesuits. So, and then even in the 2000s I was in the EVA project office under the Constellation program, so I kind of have an EVA heritage, so it was a little bit of excitement to get back into the EVA world again. And then just to, yeah, be able to take all of the lessons learned from Gateway and, and how we had established that program, the processes, and the procedures, knowing that I could take all of that and, and shift it over and help this program be successful, too, it, so it just seemed kind of like a really good fit and, and I'm always up for something new and a challenge. So, yeah, I just decided to take it on.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Host:<\/strong> Awesome. So since fall, now we're, we're recording this in the late spring, coming up on early summer, here, here very shortly, how are, how have things been going? That's, it's a short amount of time, but I'm sure you've gotten a lot done.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Lara Kearney:<\/strong> Going well. So, a program like this actually has to be Congressionally approved.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Host:<\/strong> Interesting.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Lara Kearney:<\/strong> So last fall I was working with the Center management here, with Vanessa Wyche and, and with the ACD (Artemis Campaign Division) management, Mark Kirasich, and at the time HEO (Human Exploration and Operations Mission Directorate) Kathy Lueders, and we were kind of formulating what we wanted this program to look like through the fall. So I, I kind of had my ideas, I was starting to get it written down on paper what I wanted it to look like, and kind of got to a point around Christmas time where I'm like, OK, ready to go, ready to go. And we, we were waiting for Congressional approval, and, that finally came to us in January. And the timing was really good. I kind of like blitzed hiring a leadership team in a matter of weeks. I, the HR people are wonderful, they had to put up with me doing nothing but interviewing and for about two or three weeks because I really wanted to catch this spring's budgetary cycle. We call it PPBE (programming planning budgeting and execution) because I wanted this new leadership team to come in and really own this program and own their scope and, and one of the best ways to do that is to have to write it down and put dollars against it, so...<\/p>\n<p><strong>Host:<\/strong> And hire fast, so they can write it.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Lara Kearney:<\/strong> Exactly. That's exactly right. Hire that leadership team and get them on board. We, we threw out an org[anization] chart in mid-February, we turned around had a leadership retreat, we said PPBE is your top priority, and go. And so they had about six to eight weeks to formulate their scope in terms of, of budget, and just last week, actually, we presented our program's first budgetary submit to Jim Free and Kathy Lueders just last week. So, off to a really, really great start.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Host:<\/strong> Those are the associated administrators of the human exploration program.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Lara Kearney:<\/strong> Exactly.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Host:<\/strong> The Space Operations (Mission Directorate), and then, I forget what the other one's called...<\/p>\n<p><strong>Lara Kearney<\/strong>: ESDMD (Exploration Systems Development Mission Directorate).<\/p>\n<p><strong>Host:<\/strong> ESDMD, yeah.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Lara Kearney:<\/strong> Yeah.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Host:<\/strong> Fantastic, and yeah, so you've been rolling.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Lara Kearney:<\/strong> We've been rolling.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Host:<\/strong> That's awesome. Now, in terms of the, the, the team, because obviously I think being, being a manager, one of the things it sounds like that you were very passionate about from the strategy was hiring the right people to come in and, and do this job. And because ultimately you said they're going to define their scope, so you had to find the right people, people you can trust in order to be able to do, to do that. Who did you head-hunt?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Lara Kearney:<\/strong> Yeah, so it's a kind of a combination of everything. And in Gateway there was a formulation team that was in place, so we had some people that had Gateway knowledge but for the most part the program team, we, we hired the whole team. In this case, the projects that we gathered underneath this program, so it's, maybe I should probably even tell you what's in our program. Maybe we start there. So we have the EVA operations on space station, so the, the existing EMUs (extravehicular mobility unit) and the EVA tools and everything needed to make space station EVA successful.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Host:<\/strong> Spacesuits and tools.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Lara Kearney:<\/strong> Spacesuits and tools. And under the spacesuit world, we have both think of it, kind of, heritage and new. So we have the heritage EMU that's on space station, but we also have this new suit development. And the new suit will be developed both for space station as an EMU replacement and for Artemis. So we have the new suit development, that was already existing as part of the EVA office here at JSC.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Host:<\/strong> Yeah.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Lara Kearney:<\/strong> And then we had already a project in place for the lunar terrain vehicle; it was being managed out of the Engineering Directorate, but the leadership team was already in place. And then we're taking on the pressurized rover, which is really, really early in the formulation phase. So there were existing team members already. And so, in this case, it was more of an art about how do you take the existing teams and kind of mesh them with new people coming in, so I could balance a little bit of, you know, old skill, new skill, as we're trying to get the team in place. So it was a little bit of effort and attention in the leadership team to try to kind of pair...<\/p>\n<p><strong>Host:<\/strong> Yeah.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Lara Kearney<\/strong>:...somebody coming in from the outside with somebody that was already existing and had knowledge. And I think that's a lot of why we've been able to move so quickly because, you know, we had some folks on board that were already doing a lot of this work.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Host:<\/strong> OK. So it sounds like, and that's where I wanted to go next was, was the program, defining the scope of the program. You did, you, you explained it very well. We got spacesuits. We got tools. We got rovers. We're talking about the, the current stuff, we're talking about new stuff, right? You, and it sounds like it's an interesting combination of, of these goals to, to advance these technologies. And, and, and we, we, I want to dive into that for a little bit, but it's also, it sounds like it's, it's, it's, you, you're gathering the expertise, the knowledge base, of some of the, some of the current stuff. So our current, you call them EMUs, these are spacesuits that are on the, the space station right now. So it's a little bit of maintenance and, and you have all of these legacy things, all of these, you have a lot of history, a lot of experience with that. So it sounds like your, the program itself is not just focused on the new, it's this beautiful mesh of the new and the experienced.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Lara Kearney:<\/strong> Yeah, it really is. You know, we've been doing successful EVA for decades now, right? So we really want to tap into all of that experience and make sure those lessons learned are carried forward onto the lunar surface and into Artemis. So, bringing it all under one program, I think, will really be helpful. So we, we really kind of have two objectives, trying to make sure from a program perspective we bring these projects together, and we provide like an infrastructure so these projects can be developed with consistent processes, the projects don't have to go reinvent the wheel. We can provide a layer of efficiency within the program. So I would just say programmatic infrastructure and efficiency is part of the objective. And then it's just, especially for the Artemis work, it's about technical integration. So the EVA suits and these rovers really have to work together on the surface to execute a mission. So we, by bringing them all under one program, we're right here together and we can talk about operational concepts and requirement allocation and which element needs to do what, so that we can really hone in on the, making sure we have good solid operations when we get back onto the Moon.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Host:<\/strong> OK. If I, if I had to summarize, and please steer me in the right direction here, you're, you're operating you're, you're, you're operating in the space of low-Earth orbit and then also on the Moon for, for the Artemis program, and your job is to work with respective programs and be that integrator. So you're the, you have the expertise in low-Earth orbit of the EMUs, of even the next generation spacesuits, which I'm sure will go to the International Space Station, but you're also thinking about space and, spacesuits and rovers on the Moon. And it's your job to not only be the source of that expertise and, and get these, get the hardware, get the pieces, make it work, but then integrate that with the respective missions.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Lara Kearney:<\/strong> Yeah. I call us, this program is an uber-integrating program, right?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Host:<\/strong> Yeah, awesome.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Lara Kearney:<\/strong> So unlike Gateway, which is an integrated spacecraft...<\/p>\n<p><strong>Host:<\/strong> Yeah.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Lara Kearney:<\/strong>...we are, per the official terminology, what's called a loosely-coupled program. Like each of these projects are actually, can, you know, can be designed, and can fly and operate on their own, but they have to operate together. So we're not as tightly coupled as, say, a space station or an Orion or, or a Gateway, but operations, safety, things like that, we have to think of them as the overall system. So yeah, integration is top of our priority for this program.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Host:<\/strong> I think, I wanted to start with spacesuits when, when I'm, when diving even deeper into, into this program, because I think spacesuits is, that, that seems to be one of the more vast components, if I'm, if I'm reading this correctly, of, of the organization because spacesuits have...<\/p>\n<p><strong>Lara Kearney:<\/strong> They touch everything.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Host:<\/strong> They do, right?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Lara Kearney:<\/strong>They touch Gateway, they touch the lander, they touch space station, they touch these rovers. It, it just touches everything.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Host:<\/strong> So high level, if you had a disc, like, how, how spacesuits, maybe let's start with maybe a history, how it was? How it was organized? And then what, what is the vision of this new program and the scope of what you are trying to accomplish for spacesuits in the new program?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Lara Kearney:<\/strong> Yeah. So EVA has an interesting history, you know. Of course the EMUs go back to the shuttle era, right, and then they were upgraded to make sure we could build and assemble space station. And, and now, it's all about just maintaining them and keeping them in, in a safe operating condition for space station. All while that was happening, you know, we were, we were on a path for a new suit development under Constellation, and when Constellation went away the, the team here at JSC, within the Engineering Directorate, has really done a super job since then just continuing to advance the technologies and, and move forward, you know, a new spacesuit. So we knew it was going to come back eventually, right? So they've done a super job. They're actually at a point where they have, basically, basically a high-fidelity engineering unit. They call it a DVT, or design verification test unit, of both the life support system and the pressure garment. And so, the, the NASA, here at JSC, the GFE (government furnished equipment) team, made up of the civil servants and the, and the contractor, the support contractor, they have that DVT unit now completely built, it's flight-like, and it is being pushed through test processes. Now, in fact, we just put the life support system in the chamber last week to start running it through its paces.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Host:<\/strong> Wow.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Lara Kearney:<\/strong> So a lot, a lot of advancement. So it's, it's now really up to us to take that knowledge and make sure we are making sure the next company or companies that come on board for this new generation spacesuit can utilize that knowledge going forward.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Host:<\/strong> OK. So that's, so this is the interesting part of this, right? You have over, over the years, you've explained you, you mentioned the Constellation program, this was in the 2000s, right? So, and that was where we had, where we had this, the, the spacesuits had a goal, they had a mission to, to build, but over time, they've been, they've been still working on it, even though the program itself went away. But it sounds like there is, there is this piece of hardware that's matured quite a bit.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Lara Kearney:<\/strong> Quite a bit.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Host:<\/strong> Now, now the interesting thing here that you just mentioned is what happens next? And you, and you, and you talked about companies, passing this on to companies. So what's, what's going on there? What's that step?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Lara Kearney:<\/strong> So we released an RFP about a year ago and said, OK, we want to build a new suit for the agency.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Host:<\/strong> So, request for proposals.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Lara Kearney:<\/strong> Request for proposal, to support both space station and for Artemis, and it's wrapped in one request for proposal. We got those proposals in around Christmas time, been evaluating them; we've gone through the process and, and we have an award eminently here, any day. So, what we did do, though, back to the, the GFE work, is we were going into this RFP release, we actually worked with our IT folks, the cybersecurity folks, the knowledge capture folks, and we created what we call a technical library and we made over 700 pieces of information, from drawings to schematics to requirements documents to spec[ification] documents, we made all of that available to people that might be interested in bidding on this contract, so they could take all of that knowledge that this government team has been working on and they would have a starting point. So, we did not mandate that they had to use it, but we made it all available to them, and then they could choose in their proposals, you know, what if any of that information they wanted to use in their own design concepts.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Host:<\/strong> I got it. OK. All right. So the spacesuit is at a certain level, really the, the vision and the, the purpose, the goal of your program is, we've gotten to that point, you've built this massive library of knowledge that people can pull from, you are looking for the right people to take it to the next level. And that's, and that's where we, where we are.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Lara Kearney:<\/strong> Yeah, well, we knew, so the suits are going to, it's, it's not like a rover where you build one of them, right? The suits, you build a fleet, right? So it's, it's, it's a production line, you know. On space station we would take them up, we'll bring them back down, we'll refurbish them; for the Moon, at least for the first few missions, we'll send them out and we'll leave them there. Hopefully, we'll get to the point where we can actually bring the lunar suits back as well, but there's going to be a production line. And, and we, the government, never wanted to be in, the \"production house,\" right, so we knew there was going to come a day where we needed to get this work into the hands of industry. And we had a lot of discussion about when the right time was to do that. And we felt like with the government team, again with our support contractor, they had come so far and they had so much available, that we thought we, we felt very good and ready to go, go out and do that so that we could, you know, shift this and get into the hands of our industry partners.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Host:<\/strong> OK. So the, OK, I'm trying to, I'm trying to summarize the approach. The approach is, we know what we want, we've done a lot of testing and, and we we've gotten up to a certain point; now, you're looking to go out and say, build this for me. And...<\/p>\n<p><strong>Lara Kearney:<\/strong> Yeah, I would be, it's kind of a -- little careful: what, we did <em>not<\/em> say \"build to print.\" We did not say, we have this design, go build it to print. We said, we understand what our requirements are, we have worked through all these technologies, we feel like we understand the maturity where the risk areas are, and we made that information available, but we, we left it completely, we, we handed out high-level functional requirements.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Host<\/strong>: I see.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Lara Kearney:<\/strong> And said, OK, you meet these functional requirements. And then we handed them this library and said, you decide how you want to marry that up. They, in theory, could come in with a completely new idea, new design, if they wanted to. So we definitely did not mandate a build, build to print.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Host:<\/strong> OK. OK. So let's, let's explore that a little bit more and, and, and taking it, taking even further, the vision that you've laid out, and you've mentioned, you've mentioned in terms of spacesuits, there's going to be this component in low-Earth orbit, and then there's going to be this component on the Moon. So how, the way you have it laid out right now, in terms of, of what's next and what you, this program is going to try to build, what's the vision for, for the spacesuits that you're trying to work towards?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Lara Kearney:<\/strong> Well, for, for us, the low-Earth orbit requirements set, and the lunar requirements set are not all that different, especially in the life support system. They're very, very common. The difference, really, is between being in zero gravity on space station, and then being on the surface where you have to walk, and it's in the pressure garment and the mobility element. So, so our, what I would call reference design, the NASA reference design, really, there's a single kind of, I'll just call it core capability that can support either space station or Artemis.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Host<\/strong>: Oh.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Lara Kearney:<\/strong> And then you can kind of spin off, you know, some specif, you know, I'll just call it location-specific kind of derivatives, right? But again, in the RFP we did not mandate that. In theory, companies could come up with two completely different suits if they wanted to. But to us it just makes sense to kind of have a core capability that then you can use in either location. So, so as soon as the announcement is made and we can make design concepts, you know, public to folks, you know, we'll, we'll be able to see what it is that this next generation spacesuit will look like.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Host:<\/strong> Very cool. Very cool. What's the, what's, if, if you don't mind, we, we can explore this to, to whatever depth is, is appropriate, but what is that scope of what this first contract is going to enable us to do? Is it, is it design, is it, is it production? How far are we going?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Lara Kearney:<\/strong> It is all the way through operations.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Host:<\/strong> Nice.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Lara Kearney<\/strong>: So, yeah, it's the finishing out the DDT&E (design development test and evaluation) work, the production, and operations on both space station and Artemis.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Host:<\/strong> You guys are moving fast.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Lara Kearney:<\/strong> So it's all the way out. Yep, yep.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Host:<\/strong> Very cool. Very cool. OK. So the next component of this is the rovers. Now you mentioned there was this component in an engineering directorate that you're pulling from; what's the, what's the history there and then, it's same question as before, what's the history there and then where are we going?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Lara Kearney:<\/strong> Yes, we have two components. The first one, it's, part of the challenge in this program is we have scope at such different places in the life cycle, right? We've got EMUs currently operating, the new suits are coming soon, this lunar terrain vehicle is about a year behind it, and then the pressurized rover is a couple years behind it. So that's part of our challenge as we have this suite and that, is in very different maturity levels. So the next one out the gate will be the lunar terrain vehicle. And we have had an engineering team kind of working again on, a NASA reference concept. We like to do that because that makes us, you know, you've heard the term smart buyer?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Host:<\/strong> Yeah.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Lara Kearney:<\/strong> It helps us understand when it, when industry comes in with an idea, we can kind of gauge, you know, what we think will and will not work. So there is a reference design for the lunar terrain vehicle but, unlike the spacesuits, it's not at that level of design detail or test or anything like that. It's much less mature than the, the suits were. But you've probably seen in the news there are a lot of companies out there working on their own concepts for a lunar terrain vehicle, right? So a lot of, a lot of companies already have an idea of what they think they want it to look like, how it might operate, and so they're, they're kind of waiting for us at this point to get that high level set of requirements out in the, in the form of a request for proposal again. So, well, I, you know, we're probably, we need to get through our procurement strategy process there, but, you know, we're aiming at getting an RFP on the streets sometime in the summer-ish for the lunar terrain vehicle.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Host:<\/strong> What's the, what's the high-level vision without, without, you know, you, we haven't defined the exact requirements yet, but what's the high-level vision? The, the pressurized components, unpressurized, what's the high-level vision here for rovers.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Lara Kearney:<\/strong> So the, starting with the LTV, we kind of describe it, it's, it's not going to be your Apollo rover by any means. You know, the Apollo rover, call it a Moon buggy, was really there just to get the, kind of the crew around. This one, we want to put it on the surface and we want to leave it on the surface, so it will be there and available when the crews are there, about once every year whenever SLS (Space Launch System)\/Orion flies. And then it's going to be on the surface the other, let's just call it 10 or 11 months out of the year. And we said, well, what if we use it to do science or some, you know, maybe we need to move pre-positioned cargo from one place to another, something like that? So it will actually be able to be tele-operated in that other 10, 11 months out of the year so it can actually perform science, do some logistics transfer, or things like that when the crew is not there. So it's much more complex. We show pictures of kind of, it's the Apollo Moon buggy plus like a Mars rover, all shoved together, in one thing called this LTV.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Host:<\/strong> Yeah.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Lara Kearney:<\/strong> And then we're asking to operate it, or we are asking it to operate on the lunar South Pole, which we're finding is really, really hard given the lighting conditions that are down there. So, the requirements we put on this thing are going to be pretty tough.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Host:<\/strong> OK. Yeah. Tele-operated, so that means you can stage it wherever you want. You say, hey, we're going to land here for Artemis blank, you can say OK, let's move the, let's move the rover. You have some other mission objectives. And I'm sure you're coming up with more tightly defining this. Let's zoom in on the, on the lighting because I think this is a, this is a big one. And I think it translates very nicely for, for spacesuits as well, right? Spacesuits and rovers. When you talk about the South Pole, South Pole is, is very interesting; it's a very interesting place. There's, you got volatiles there, the water ices, lots of really cool science. So it's very interesting place to explore. But as you mentioned, from an engineering perspective, it's much harder. Why is that, from a, from an engineering perspective?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Lara Kearney:<\/strong> Yeah, we've really learned over the last year what it means. And so we have some really smart people that can take all of the data from these satellites, you know, and they've put videos together and, and it really shows you how the shadows move around on, on the lunar South Pole. And so for vehicles that are operating down there, they, they like power, right, and they get power from the Sun, and when they, when they're in shadow they're not so happy, right? So, it, it, it's going to be kind of a balance between following the shadows and, and getting to the Sun, or having enough battery power to be able to survive when they're in the shadows. So it's, it's going to be a technology challenge for these guys to be able to, we call it \"survive the night\" for these rovers to be able to kind of get to a point, you know, hunker down for a certain number of hours and then be able to kind of wake back up when the Sun comes back up and they can start collecting solar energy again.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Host:<\/strong> OK. Yeah. So you have, you have some reference with some, some of the designs we've had in the past. I, I do remember the MEV (mission extension vehicle), I believe? I remember that vehicle. It was, it kind looks like a, a lunar rover, but now as you're, as we're better understanding Artemis and where we want to go and what we want to do, one of the jobs that you have is to come up with designs and, and, and you have to define the requirements for, for where you want to go, what you want to do, send that out to industry so they can design solutions for exactly that, \"survive the night\" and all these very more complex things, now, as we have a better understanding of what we want for a sustainable Artemis program.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Lara Kearney:<\/strong> Yeah. You know the idea now, you, you hear folks say we want to go to stay longer, right?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Host:<\/strong> Yeah.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Lara Kearney:<\/strong> And so, staying longer is the challenge. And we want to be able to build up, you know, infrastructure, eventually get to habitats, you know, bring the pressurized rover on. And so, you see multiple missions where a cargo lander may, will come down, it has logistics and you have to get that logistics from that cargo lander either to a pressurized rover or to a habitat. And this LTV is going to help do some of that logistics transfer. So it's going to be, is, it'll be a workhorse...<\/p>\n<p><strong>Host:<\/strong> Yeah.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Lara Kearney<\/strong>:...not only for the crew, but then again, you know, have some ride alongs, say science payloads on it at the same time that can collect a lot of really great scientific data at the same time.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Host:<\/strong> I'm guessing the spacesuits have to think about those same things, right? Lighting conditions and how to operate and all of that.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Lara Kearney:<\/strong> Yeah.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Host:<\/strong> So that's what you'll be looking for.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Lara Kearney:<\/strong> And that's one of the beauties of bringing us all together under a one program, right? Because we can ask ourselves, you know, maybe we don't have to carry all this functionality on the suits, maybe it's on the rovers, right? And so the suits don't have to light their whole way, the rovers can have the lights, right, and light them. So it really is understanding, from an architectural level, how we allocate some of these functions across these elements within our programs. So we are not really, especially with the spacesuits that somebody has to wear, right, it's easy, they can get really heavy, really fast, if we try to put too many of those functions on the suit themselves. So, so I think that's one of the jobs of our SE&I, our systems engineering integration organization, is to make sure we, we have those functions allocated across our elements.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Host:<\/strong> So when it comes to the spacesuits and thinking about, you know, there's, you mentioned some of the similarities with when you design a spacesuit in Low-Earth orbit and when you design, design a spacesuit for the lunar surface; there's a lot of similarities, but that mobility on the lunar surface seems to have a lot of crossover. So there's a lot of similarities in those designs, but the thermal, the thermal idea is, is something in and of itself. What are, what are some of the things you're thinking about for spacesuits when it comes to space station and what are the needs for that program, right? This is where we talked about in the very beginning of, of being the integrator of separate programs with perhaps separate needs and ideas; how do you balance that in, in a singular, multiple design, like how do you balance those needs?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Lara Kearney:<\/strong> Yeah. One of the tricks for space station is just don't screw it up, right? Because we've got a space station up there and they need, they need this suit, right? And so, and that part of the world, we have a station interface and we know what tasks need to be done, and this suit needs to be able to do those tasks. So in one way, we're kind of anchored on the space station side, where on the Artemis side we kind of have some free design space because the suits and the rovers are all kind of being designed at the same time. But on space station, yeah, we've committed to Joel [Montalbano] and the space station program, we're not going to come in and have to redesign your airlock or have to redesign your translation paths or something like that. So that, those interfaces are really kind of set. So kind of taking those, those anchors in, but leaving us enough, say, wiggle room where we have some flexibility on the Artemis side is, is part of the challenge in this new suit.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Host:<\/strong> Yeah. You have, that's, that's, it's, it'll be interesting to navigate for sure. I'm very excited to see some of the designs and, and all of these things that are coming out. What, what, when you think about the approach, though, this seems to be, it's a very interesting approach. I would like to equate it to Commercial Crew and what we've seen for commercial low-Earth orbit, but it, this one seems a little bit different. If you have to think about the way that, that your program is approaching working with industry to, to work on these spacesuits and, and rovers, like we've been talking about, like we've been describing, how would you compare your approach to say the Commercial Crew model?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Lara Kearney:<\/strong> Well, for every individual element, we, we go through an acquisition strategy process where we think about what, what, how would we want to acquire it, do we want to commercial service, is it better if it's more of a NASA buy kind of thing? So we, we think about that for each one of our elements. For the suits in the request for proposal that's out, it is a commercial service, and so we, we thought about \u2013 hard \u2013 whether that was the appropriate thing to do. And in that case, because again that design was so mature, we really thought it was appropriate to do that, and because you see the low-Earth orbit market really starting to come alive. And so, we, we went out and said, we're going to take it on with the, with the EVA procurement, we're going to go commercial service. So we'll see, we'll see what, you know, we decide to do ultimately on the rovers as we kind of walk through that process of pros and cons and, and needs of the government. We'll see what happens with those acquisitions.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Host:<\/strong> I, I think one, one of the things that was described to me as I begin to have a better understanding of this program in its infancy is, for Commercial Crew there was this idea of the plan, train, fly from the commercial side, and we see that a lot with, with NASA astronauts for Commercial Crew missions. They go to, for example, for SpaceX, they, they go over to Hawthorne, and they train to understand the Dragon and its systems, and that's by SpaceX trainers and, and, and they, they own that system, that's theirs. But then they come to Houston and they train for their mission, which is the long duration space station mission for all the space station stuff. There's this plan, train, fly, where we're working with SpaceX flight controllers and everything. That, from what I understand about the spacesuits, it's a little bit, it's a little bit different, and maybe it's in the approach of the operations that it needs to be different, but it sounds like the plan, train, fly is here in Houston. How does that, how does that compare?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Lara Kearney:<\/strong> Yeah, I think you're probably reading that right. We, we talk about it in terms of like the rental car model, right, where we're not buying the car, like, you know, kind of a standard NASA acquisition. It's also not like an Uber, right, where we're pushing it all over to this, this goes; this is more of like a rental car that the vendor or vendors \u2013 we'll see, again, how the announcement goes here coming up soon \u2013 but they, they own the hardware. That hardware is never transferred over to the government. So it will be the contractor or contractors' responsibility to make sure all that hardware and equipment is there and ready and supporting training events, and, and they will actually, you know, do the training, say, on the suit itself, but when it comes to flying a mission and executing an EVA, that still resides solely with NASA JSC, you know, fly, operate, risk acceptance, risk management. So, so these, say the, a suit, a suit vendor would almost act like, it would almost be like a backroom participant making sure the suit is operating correctly, but the actual EVA that's being executed, either on station or on the Moon, is still being executed by FOD (Flight Operations Directorate) here at JSC.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Host:<\/strong> OK. So the commercial is more the hardware specific, and then NASA retains the mission specific.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Lara Kearney:<\/strong> The, I, yeah, I would call it mission execution.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Host:<\/strong> Mission execution. OK. OK. Very good.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Lara Kearney:<\/strong> Yep.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Host:<\/strong> Now the spacesuits, EVA, extravehicular activities, the tools and the spacesuits, I don't, I don't know exactly their historic relationship with rovers. There may have been some crossover, but is this, is there a reason why you're taking on both? They, they seem like they do kind of marry in certain ways; what's the value of the program taking on both the spacesuits and the rovers?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Lara Kearney:<\/strong> Yeah, I think it's, again, kind of back to the whole, we have to execute a, especially on the surface, a surface mission, right? And, and the ability to be able to, say, find common tools, if we could use the same types of tools, say on Gateway that we do on HLS (Human Landing System) that we do on a pressurized rover that we do on an LTV, then we get kind of commonality for crew training, just cost efficiency. So I think again, we can be the glue across all of these platforms that we execute EVA from. And tools is one of those areas that, you know, you would like to think we can be common there, if we can get out ahead of it, right? You have to get out ahead of it, which is part of this challenge of everything being at different maturity levels, right, is, is trying to kind of either set some requirements, say in interoperability spec space or something like that, and just trying to stay ahead of where that commonality might help us.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Host:<\/strong> Will, will NASA maintain, will, will we have this commercial model, we've been talking about this commercial model for spacesuits and rovers, but we haven't really explored tools too much. Is that going to be relatively the same or is that going to be more...<\/p>\n<p><strong>Lara Kearney:<\/strong> So EVA tools will be under this xEVAS (Exploration Extravehicular Activity Services) contract. So when it is awarded that tool suite will be part of that scope along with the suits.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Host:<\/strong> Oh, very cool.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Lara Kearney:<\/strong> So, Yeah.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Host:<\/strong> OK. So they're doing it, they got to do. Yeah. They got a good job.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Lara Kearney:<\/strong> Yeah, yeah. Yep.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Host:<\/strong> That's a lot, that's a lot. When you talk about, when you think about the vision of what you are trying to build, and of course your team, this is, you know, I think this is a very exciting time, right? I think when, when we first started talking, we talked about this gap from Constellation to really maturing the designs as best as they could, but now, we got missions, you know, we, we're going to, we're going to have spacesuits on the International Space Station, spacesuits and rovers on the Moon. Like that's, that's what you guys are doing. That's pretty cool. When it comes to thinking about a Moon mission, the spacesuit is probably one of the single most visually spectacular things that a person, like when, when you talk about boots on the Moon, you're designing the boots, you're working on that boot. That's pretty cool. When you pull back and think about what you and your team and, and the, the mission, the goals that you have to be a part of, what are some of the emotions that, that you think of when you're just like, wow, I get to, I get to be a part of this?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Lara Kearney:<\/strong> Yeah. It's, it's exciting because it's pretty iconic.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Host:<\/strong> Yeah.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Lara Kearney:<\/strong> You know, people look back to the spacesuits, I think people just relate to it because it, it looks human, it feels human, you know? And so it's exciting to be a part of, and you know, in, in our industry you just, you kind of have to have some patience, right?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Host:<\/strong> Sure.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Lara Kearney:<\/strong> Nothing happens overnight. And so, these missions are going to take, you know, a series of years to be able to execute. But you know, I, I have confidence that by the end of this decade we'll be doing EVAS on the Moon, right? Hopefully, we'll have the LTV there, you know, at the same time; we'll see how quickly we can get the pressurized rover on the Moon. But it'll be fun to see, you know, multiple elements coming together and working together as kind of an integrated mission. And then I think there's just no end to it, right? I mean, then we start laying infra, power infrastructure, we start laying comm[unications] infrastructure. You know, I think it's just a really different approach than Apollo, which was very much optimized for specific missions. This is more about laying infrastructure over time so that more and more people can play, more international partners, more companies, you know, we can get more people involved. And so, I, I feel like that's part of our role, along with the Artemis Campaign Division above us, is making sure we're kind of setting that higher level vision and strategy and infrastructure, so that we can allow more players to come in, you know, over time.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Host:<\/strong> That's fascinating, Lara. I'm like, I, I am just so excited for that. When you talk about all of these, when you talk about the growth, laying that foundation for that, and then when you talk about the timeline, like it's all very achievable. And that's, and that's a very exciting thing. Can't wait to see what this announcement is, is going to hold, because I feel like it's the first, it's going to lay the groundwork for this growth that you're talking about, because I'm sure you're just going to expand from there on. So I, I wanted to wrap up by just saying, Lara, thank you so much for coming on and explaining this. It's a new program, very exciting program. Got a lot of work ahead of you. So I appreciate you coming on and describing all that you do.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Lara Kearney:<\/strong> Thanks so much. Thanks for having me. I appreciate it.<\/p>\n<p>[Music]<\/p>\n<p><strong>Host:<\/strong> Hey, thanks for sticking around. Really enjoyed this conversation with Lara Kearney today. I definitely learned a lot about this brand-new program, and I hope you did, too. Check out <a href=\"https:\/\/www.nasa.gov\/\">NASA.gov<\/a> for any announcements and any information you can find on this brand-new program, EHP. This is not the first time we've talked with Lara Kearney on this podcast. The last time we talked to her she was the deputy manager of the Gateway program, and talked with manager Dan Hartman who is still the manager today. You can check out that episode when the program was at its infancy, <a href=\"https:\/\/www.nasa.gov\/johnson\/HWHAP\/gateway\">episode 157<\/a>. She was also on a couple of other episodes. She was on <a href=\"https:\/\/www.nasa.gov\/johnson\/HWHAP\/the-next-first-steps\">episode 102<\/a> as one of many NASA leaders talking about the next first steps for the agency, and she also stood in on a, a panel to talk about the Apollo 10 mission; if you want to check that out, that's <a href=\"https:\/\/www.nasa.gov\/johnson\/HWHAP\/apollo-10\">episode 92<\/a>. You can check out any of our episodes in no particular order at <a href=\"https:\/\/www.nasa.gov\/podcasts\">NASA.gov\/podcasts<\/a>. Our full collection is there. We're at <a href=\"https:\/\/www.nasa.gov\/johnson\/HWHAP\">Houston We Have a Podcast<\/a>, but there's other shows that you can find there, too, and make sure you check them out as well. If you want to talk to us, we're at the NASA Johnson Space Center pages of <a href=\"http:\/\/www.facebook.com\/NASAJSC\">Facebook<\/a>, <a href=\"http:\/\/twitter.com\/NASA_Johnson\">Twitter<\/a>, and <a href=\"http:\/\/www.instagram.com\/nasajohnson\/?hl=en\">Instagram<\/a>. And you can use the hashtag #AskNASA on your favorite platform to submit an idea for the show or maybe ask a question and just make sure to mention is for us at Houston We Have a Podcast. This episode was recorded on May 23, 2022. Thanks to Alex Perryman, Pat Ryan, Heidi Lavelle, Belinda Pulido, Rebecca Wickes, and Stephanie Sipila. And of course, thanks again to Lara Kearney for taking the time to come on the show. Give us a rating and feedback on whatever platform you're listening to us on and tell us what you think of our podcast. We'll be back next week.<\/p>\n","protected":false},"excerpt":{"raw":"Lara Kearney explains the goals of a new program at NASA that is working with industry and international partners on future spacesuits and rovers. HWHAP Episode 247.","rendered":"<p>Lara Kearney explains the goals of a new program at NASA that is working with industry and international partners on future spacesuits and rovers. 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