UNITED STATES OF AMERICA DEPARTMENT OF TRANSPORTATION OFFICE OF HEARINGS

IN THE MATTER OF: AIRLINE TRANSPORT PROFESSIONALS, INC. FDMS No. FAA-2011-0288 FAA-2011-0289 Respondent

Friday, August 8, 2014



### The teleconference convened, pursuant to notice, at 1:00 p.m. BEFORE: THE HONORABLE RONNIE A. YODER, Administrative Law Judge 

# RECEIVED AUG 1 52014 

### HEARING DOCKET

NEAL R. GROSS 1

(202) 234·4433 COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433APPEARANCES:

On Behalf of the Complainant: GERALD A. ELLIS, ESQ. Office of the Regional Counsel, AS0-7 Southern Region Federal Aviation Administration Post Office Box 20636 Atlanta, Georgia 30230

(404) 305-5200 On Behalf of the Respondent: JEFFREY R. LUDWIG, ESQ. of: Ludwig 

### & Associates, P.A. 5150 Belfort Road South, Building 500 Jacksonville, Florida 32256 (904) 281-0145 Also Present: JIM KOZIARSKI, Vice President, Airline Transport Professionals, Inc.

NEAL R. GROSS 2

(202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERS ANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLANDAVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-44333 1 P-R-0-C-E-E-D-I-N-G-S 2 (1:05 p.m.) 3 JUDGE YODER: On the record. This 4 is prehearing conference in Airline Transport 5 Professionals, Inc., docket numbers FAA-2011- 6 0288 and FAA-2011-0289. 7 On the phone we have for the 8 Complainant, Gerald A. Ellis and for the 9 Respondent, Jeffrey R. Ludwig. Is that 10 correct? 11 MR. ELLIS: Yes, Your Honor, 12 that's correct. 13 JUDGE YODER: In the absence of 14 objection, I will determine a five-day 15 transcript will be necessary and required for 16 this proceeding. Copies will automaticallygo 17 to FAA counsel, to the judge and to the 18 dockets. 19 Mr. Ludwig, if you want a copy, 20 you will need to order that from the reporter 21 or, at some point, it will show up in the 22 docket and you can download it from the

NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLANDAVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-44334 

### 1 docket. Whether the timing of that is 2 consistent with what you will be needing to 3 do, is another question. 4 You understand what the situation 5 is? 6 

### MR. LUDWIG: Yes, Your Honor. I 

### 7 just want to make sure that I know the site to 8 

### go to. Is it dot.gov? 9 

### JUDGE YODER: Yes, dot.gov is

-- 10 well, dot.regulations

-- no, DOT regulations 11 www.regulations.gov. 12 MR. LUDWIG: Oh, okay. 13 

### JUDGE YODER: And then enter 14 docket. 15 

### MR. ELLIS: Judge Yoder, did you 16 say the FAA gets a copy automatically? 17 

### JUDGE YODER: They always have in 18 the past. 19 

### MR. ELLIS: Okay. 20 

### JUDGE YODER: I assume that is the 21 case. They are included in the order that we 22 provide

-- we make with the reporter.

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### 1 MR. ELLIS: Okay. 2 JUDGE YODER: That has always been 3 the case, as far as I know. I don't make the 4 orders myself but that is the way it is done. 5 All right, the PHC was scheduled 6 to consider issues relating to both cases. 7 The first one has to do with consolidationof 8 the cases. At this point, they have not been 9 

### consolidated. We are just holding a joint 10 prehearing conference, so that we can resolve 11 them at the same time. 12 It is my plan to consolidate the 13 cases for hearing, if we go to hearing, in the 14 absence of any objection. 15 

### MR. LUDWIG: Respondent has no 16 objection to that, Your Honor. 17 

### MR. ELLIS: The FAA has no 18 objection. 19 

### JUDGE YODER: Future filings 20 should be made with both docket numbers on 21 them. And you send an original and one copy 22 to the docket and they will then file those

NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERS ANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLANDAVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-44336 

### 1 appropriately. 2 

### MR. LUDWIG: Your Honor, would the 3 style of the case you put on the notice of 4 prehearing telephonic conference, that would 5 be appropriate from here on out, then? 6 

### JUDGE YODER: Yes. 7 

### MR. LUDWIG: Okay, sir. 8 

### JUDGE YODER: Okay, thank you. 9 

### Now, let 1

### s see. I have got a 10 number of pending motions. The first one has 11 to do with timeliness of the NPCPs and the 12 suggestion of Respondent is that they weren 1

### t 13 served within two years of the violations. It 14 would also contend that they never owned or 15 

### operated the aircraft. Are you still 16 contending that, Mr. Ludwig? 17 

### MR. LUDWIG: Well, as to the first 18 issue, it looks like the original proposed 19 Notice of Certificate action was issued with 20 probably a year of when the FAA had knowledge 21 or had cause to have knowledge. 22 

### So, the previous counsel weighs

NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERSANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLANDAVE., NW WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-44337

1 that issue. I'm not so sure that that issue 2 exists. However, the timeliness issue will 3 concede. However, we do not concede and we 4 still maintain, Your Honor, that they served 5 the wrong party because the named respondent, 6 Airline Transport Professionals, Inc. did not 7 own the aircraft. In fact, each aircraft

-- 8 JUDGE YODER: Did they operate the 9 aircraft? 10 MR. LUDWIG: No, sir. They just 11 were dispatching and they were kind of the 12 facilitator but the operator of the aircraft 13 were the pilots and the flight instructors. 14 JUDGE YODER: You understand what 15 operating an aircraft means. It doesn't mean 16 flying it around in the air. 17 MR. LUDWIG: No, sir. I'm very 18 well aware of operation, operational control, 19 and those sorts of things. 20 I think 21 JUDGE YODER : Excuse me. Your 22 contention is that Inc. didn't have

NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLANDAVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005·3701 (202) 234-44338 

### 1 operational control of these aircraft? 2 MR. LUDWIG: That is exactly what 3 my client maintains. They facilitated the 4 dispatching and they contracted for the 5 maintenance that was done on it but they 6 didn't own the planes. 7 

### JUDGE YODER: I didn't ask whether 8 

### they were owned. I said operated. 9 

### Your previous counsel seemed to 10 think that operating meant the pilot. 11 

### MR. LUDWIG: Yes, that is exactly 12 what he maintained. And 13 

### JUDGE YODER: Is that what you 14 maintain? 15 

### MR. LUDWIG: Yes. 16 

### JUDGE YODER: Oh, you think that 17 the operator under FAA regulations is the 18 person who flies the plane? 19 MR. LUDWIG: I'm looking under the 20 definitions of Part 1, I think it is 1.1 is 21 where we were taking that from. An operator 22 is defined

--

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### 1 JUDGE YODER: You might want to 2 look at some case law, if you think that the 3 operator is the person who files the plane. 4 

### MR. LUDWIG: We will do that, 5 Judge. 6 

### JUDGE YODER: It might save you 7 and me and everybody a lot of time, running 8 down issues that don't exist. 9 

### MR. LUDWIG: Operational control 10 with respect to a flight means the exercise of 11 authority over initiating, conducting, or 12 terminating a flight. That is what it says. 13 JUDGE YODER: What do you suppose 14 a dispatcher does? 15 

### MR. LUDWIG: Well, we are not like 16 an airline. We are a Part 61 and they just 17 facilitate 18 

### JUDGE YODER: Do they enable the 19 initiation of the flight? 20 

### MR. LUDWIG: No, the instructor 21 and the person who is getting the training 22 does. They call him to see what the

NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERSANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLANDAVE., NW. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-443310 1 maintenance status is. And then they make the 2 determination of whether to go or not to go. 3 In this operation

-- and again, 4 this is a Part 61 school, judge. It is not a 5 6 JUDGE YODER: The maintenance 7 office doesn't tell them whether the plane is 8 9 MR. LUDWIG: Getting an inspection 10 or got a problem with it. Yes, they do. 11 JUDGE YODER: So they clear it for 12 flight. 13 MR. LUDWIG: But the ultimate 14 decision is still made by the pilot in 15 command. They let him know whether it is

-- 16 JUDGE YODER: Let's deal with my 17 questions first. 18 MR. LUDWIG: Yes, sir. 19 JUDGE YODER: They clear it for 20 flight. Is that correct? 21 MR. LUDWIG: They advise the pilot 22 who is going to operate the plane what the

NEALR. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLANDAVE., NW. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-443311 

### 1 maintenance status is. 2 JUDGE YODER: You don't like my 3 question. 4 

### MR. LUDWIG: Well, I don't think 5 they

-- I don't know what you mean clear it 6 for flight. 7 

### JUDGE YODER: They tell the people 8 that they can take off with that plane

-- 9 

### MR. LUDWIG: From a maintenance 10 standpoint? 11 

### JUDGE YODER:

-- because it is 12 okay from a maintenance standpoint. Do they 13 do that or not? 14 

### MR. LUDWIG: Judge, I am going to 15 have to talk with them some more about that. 16 

### JUDGE YODER: You don't know 17 whether they do that or not? 18 

### MR. LUDWIG: My understanding is 19 

### that they facilitate and they cause 20 maintenance to occur but I think the ultimate 21 decision, whether or not the dispatch is to 22 the pilot in command of the airplane.

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1 

### JUDGE YODER: That, of course, is 2 not what I asked you, Mr. Ludwig. 3 

### Can you tell me this? Can you 4 tell me whether dispatch is an office is ATP, 5 

### Inc.? 6 

### MR. LUDWIG: Jim, let me ask you 7 

### that. Your Honor, I have my client with me. 8 

### JUDGE YODER: Who is that, please? 9 

### MR. LUDWIG: Sir, his name is Jim 10 

### Koziarski, K-0-Z-I-A-R-S-K-I. 11 

### JUDGE YODER: And he is the Vice 12 

### President? 13 

### MR. LUDWIG: Yes, sir. 14 

### JUDGE YODER: Who is the 15 President? 16 

### MR. LUDWIG: Jim, is Dennis? 17 

### MR. KOZIARSKI: Derrick Dennis. 18 

### MR. LUDWIG: Yes, Derrick Dennis. 19 

### JUDGE YODER: Would you spell 20 

### that, please? 21 

### MR. KOZIARSKI: D-E-R-R-I-C-K, D22 E-N-N-I-S.

NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERS ANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLANDAVE., N.W WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-443313 1 JUDGE YODER: D-E-N-N-I-S? 2 MR. KOZIARSKI: That is correct. 3 Yes, sir. 4 JUDGE YODER: Okay, thank you very 5 much. 6 Okay, now, before you go on, Mr. 7 Koziarski, I want you to understand if you are 8 going to be making statements, they are going 9 to be a part of this record. And you, of 10 course, are not sworn, but any statement that 11 you make can be used in subsequentproceeding, 12 can be used for purposes of cross-examination. 13 It can be used as an addition against 14 interest. It can be used impeach the witness 15 at the hearing and it could be the basis for 16 allegations of false statement before a 17 federal officer. 18 I just want you to understand that 19 when you get involved in the prehearing 20 conference, you need to understand what the 21 issues are. Okay? 22 MR. KOZIARSKI: Yes, sir, I

NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERSANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLANDAVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-443314

1 

### understand that. 2 

### JUDGE YODER: Okay. Now, if he is 3 going to be talking to us, we need to be able 4 

### to hear him. 5 

### MR. LUDWIG: Jim, could you speak 6 

### up? We are having a hard time hearing you. 7 

### Are you on a speaker phone? 8 

### MR. KOZIARSKI: No, it is a 9 

### headset. Is that any better? 10 

### JUDGE YODER: Well, it's better 11 

### than it was. 12 

### MR. KOZIARSKI: Hang on one 13 second. How about that? Is that any better? 14 

### JUDGE YODER: No, that's worse. 15 

### MR. KOZIARSKI: That's worse. 16 Okay, let me try and go back the other way. 17 

### JUDGE YODER: Now, I don't hear 18 anything at all. 19 

### MR. KOZIARSKI: Okay, how about 20 that? Is that any better? 21 

### JUDGE YODER: Yes, that's better. 22 

### Okay, so we had a question pending

NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERSANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLANDAVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-443315 

### 1 as to whether the maintenance and dispatch 2 offices are offices of ATP, Inc. 3 

### MR. KOZIARSKI: Can you hear me? 4 

### JUDGE YODER: Just barely. 5 

### MR. KOZIARSKI: I'm sorry. I'm 6 having a real hard time. 7 

### JUDGE YODER: You go ahead. I can 8 

### hear. 9 

### MR. LUDWIG: Jim, do you 10 understand the judge's query? 11 MR. KOZIARSKI: Jeff, I can barely 12 hear you and I don't know if it is where I am 13 at. I have poor cell phone coverage. So, I 14 am having a real hard time hearing anybody. 15 

### So, we may have to we will just have to 16 take it from here. 17 

### MR. LUDWIG: Okay, Judge? 18 

### JUDGE YODER: Yes. 19 

### MR. LUDWIG: My understanding is 20 they don't have a dispatch office, per se, 21 like a Part 121. They do have a maintenance 22 facilitator that when the pilot and student

NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234·4433 COURT REPORTERSAND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISlANDAVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-443316 

### l call in, they tell them whether the aircraft 2 is up or down and ready for flight. That is 3 what I know about the operation. 4 

### JUDGE YODER: So you are saying 5 

### that there is just one office, although they 6 

### are referred to as different things in these 7 

### documents? 8 

### MR. LUDWIG: There are two

-- they 9 

### have 30 

### flight training sites and there are 10 

### two

-- 11 

### JUDGE YODER: Are maintenance and 12 

### dispatchseparateoperationsthat function for 13 

### ATP? 14 

### MR. LUDWIG: That is my 15 understanding, Your Honor. 16 

### JUDGE YODER: Are they part of 17 ATP, Inc.? 18 

### MR. LUDWIG: Jim, can you -- you 19 

### know, Your Honor, I 

### hate to make 

### a 20 representation that I can't answer. 21 

### JUDGE YODER: Well you can't talk 22 to your client, any way that you want to, if

NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERS ANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLANDAVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-443317 1 you want to do that. If he talks, he is going 2 to be on the record. But if you can ask him 3 and tell us, that's fine. 4 MR. LUDWIG: Jim, can you hear any 5 of this? 6 Judge, he is on vacation out in, I 7 think, the Rocky Mountains. That is the 8 problem, I'm afraid. 9 JUDGE YODER: Aha. Well, it's 10 nice to be able to take vacations. 11 MR. LUDWIG: Yes, it is. 12 JUDGE YODER: But the idea of this 13 prehearing conference was that we were going 14 to be able to address all issues in the 15 proceeding. That is what the notice said. 16 MR. LUDWIG: Yes, sir. I 17 understand that and I have done my best with 18 him. And this case is going on six or seven 19 years old and all the people with corporate 20 knowledge about it reside with Jim now, pretty 21 much. 22 JUDGE YODER: Yes. Have you

NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234·4433 COURT REPORTERSANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLANDAVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005·3701 (202) 234-443318 

### 1 considered trying to get this case settled? 2 MR. LUDWIG: Your Honor, I have 3 tried with a yeoman's effort with Mr. Ellis. 4 And we tried and then the case, after our last 5 correspondence about three, three and a half 6 years ago, it just went dormant and we heard 7 nothing else from Mr. Ellis' office. 8 

### JUDGE YODER: You haven't tried 9 since you got the prehearing conference 10 notice? 11 

### MR. LUDWIG: I have not talked to 12 him since I got that. 13 

### JUDGE YODER: We'll see -- 14 

### MR. LUDWIG: But that doesn't 15 mean, Judge, we can't get it resolved and 16 believe me, we want to get it resolved. 17 

### JUDGE YODER: Yes, well, we will 18 see by the end of the day, maybe, you will 19 both feel better about settling. 20 

### So, what I am hearing you say is 21 that there is a dispatch and maintenance 22 operation and you don't know whether it is

NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERSANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLANDAVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-443319 1 part of ATP, Inc. or not and it is the same 2 operation, not two separate operations. And 3 it is located in each of the places where you 4 have a facility or is it one central location? 5 MR. LUDWIG: Your Honor, my 6 understanding is there is a maintenance 7 facility that is operated by ATP, Airline 8 Transport Professionals, Inc. inJacksonville, 9 Florida, where we are. There is also one in 10 Raleigh-Durham. And if the airplanes need 11 maintenance or scheduled maintenance or 100- 12 hour inspection or any of those sorts of 13 things, unless they are grounded at another 14 airport away from these maintenance 15 facilities, where a maintenance facility has 16 to be contractedto do the type of maintenance 17 where an A&P or AI has to do it, then it can't 18 be done by the pilot in commandunder I guess, 19 Part 41 or 43 of the Federal Aviation 20 Regulations, then it is accomplishedat one of 21 these two main maintenance sites. 22 JUDGE YODER: Who decides when

NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERS ANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLANDAVE., NW. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-443320 

### 1 those things are needed? 2 

### MR. LUDWIG: ATP keeps a record of 3 the flight log and when a 100-hour inspection 4 needs to be done or routine maintenance. And 5 

### then the airplane when, I guess, as it 6 approaches that, Your Honor, it is then 7 

### scheduled to come in for whatever it needs. 8 

### JUDGE YODER: So, the ATP decides 9 

### when the maintenance occurs. 10 MR. LUDWIG: Yes, sir. 11 

### JUDGE YODER: Whether it needs to 12 occur. 13 

### MR. LUDWIG: Unless there is some 14 unusual maintenance issue. 15 

### JUDGE YODER: Yes, sure. Well, 16 okay. 17 

### MR. LUDWIG: You know a tire goes 18 flat or a battery goes dead. 19 

### JUDGE YODER: Remember that answer 20 as you think back over the previous questions 21 we have been asking. 22 

### MR. LUDWIG: Yes, sir.

NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERS ANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLANDAVE., NW. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234·443321

1 

### JUDGE YODER: Let's go back to my 2 first question and that was the motion to 3 dismiss because they weren't servedwithintwo 4 

### years. It is my understanding that you are 5 

### abandoning that suggestion. 6 

### MR. LUDWIG: My understanding of 7 

### the facts are -- 8 

### JUDGE YODER: No, that wasn't my 9 

### question. My question was are you abandoning 10 

### that assertion? 11 

### MR. LUDWIG: Yes. 12 

### JUDGE YODER: Okay. So, we don't 13 

### have to worry about that one anymore. 14 

### MR. LUDWIG: No. 15 

### JUDGE YODER: So, the motion to 16 

### dismiss is denied or withdrawn. The motion to 17 

### strike the timeliness argument, then, is also 18 

### moot because that motion is denied or 19 

### withdrawn. 20 

### Then we have got the next 21 

### question, which is one for Mr. Ellis. We 22 don't want to leave you out of this, Mr.

NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234·4433 COURT REPORTERS ANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLANDAVE., NW WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005·3701 (202) 234-443322 

### 1 Ellis. 2 

### MR. ELLIS: Thank you, Judge. 3 

### MR. LUDWIG: Well, he's been 4 having a good time listening to me, I'm sure. 5 

### JUDGE YODER: I know. Well, now 6 you can have fun. 7 

### Mr. Ellis, was this complaint 8 served within 20 days after a request for 9 hearing? 10 

### MR. ELLIS: Yes. 11 

### JUDGE YODER: And how did you 12 figure that out? 13 

### MR. ELLIS: I believe it was, 14 let's see, let me look at my documents. Let's 15 see on -- 16 

### JUDGE YODER: Do you have the 17 request there in front of you? 18 

### MR. ELLIS: the case that was 19 formerly 0042, which is now -- 20 JUDGE YODER: Excuse me. 21 MR. ELLIS: I have 89. 22 

### JUDGE YODER: Excuse me. I have a

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1 

### request for a hearing on March 10. Is that 2 correct? 3 

### MR. ELLIS: Request for hearing 4 was March 5 

### MR. LUDWIG: That was by Mr. 6 Armstrong. 7 

### JUDGE YODER: Excuse me? 8 

### MR. LUDWIG: Are you referring to 9 Alan Armstrong's request for a hearing on 10 March lOth, Judge? 11 

### JUDGE YODER: Yes, sir. 12 MR. LUDWIG: Okay. 13 

### MR. ELLIS: March lOth, received 14 March 17th. 15 

### JUDGE YODER: Is there one other 16 than the March 10 one? 17 MR. ELLIS: I think they were both 18 filed March lOth. 19 

### JUDGE YODER: That is what the 20 documents I have would suggest. 21 MR. ELLIS: And received March 22 17th. That is correct.

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1 

### JUDGE YODER: And if it was filed 2 on March 10, when was the complaint due? 3 

### MR. ELLIS: Twenty days plus five 4 for mailing. 5 

### JUDGE YODER: Is it both sides 6 were mailed? 7 

### MR. ELLIS: Yes. 8 

### JUDGE YODER: Okay. All right. 9 

### MR. LUDWIG: How did that get 10 served? That is the mystery. We have no -- 11 

### JUDGE YODER: Service is effected 12 when mailed under the rules. Where is the 13 five for mailing on that, Mr. Ellis? 14 

### MR. ELLIS: I believe that is in 15 

### the rules. Anytime something is served to 16 your by mail, you get an additional five days. 17 

### JUDGE YODER: I thought that was 18 --okay. 19 

### All right, let's move on to the 20 motion for extension and motion to vacate. 21 Mr. Ludwig, you understand that under the 22 rules, if you move for extensionand it is not

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### 1 granted, it is automatically extended? 2 MR. LUDWIG: That is my 3 recollection someplace way back in my brain, 4 Judge. 5 

### JUDGE YODER: Well, that occurred 6 

### here. They weren't granted. So, they were 7 automaticallyextended until May 21. Jump in 8 if you have any question about that, Mr. 9 Ellis, but I think you will find that it was 10 automatically extended until May 21. 11 

### MR. ELLIS: Yes, sir. 12 JUDGE YODER: And the answers were 13 filed on May 12. So, the motions to extend, 14 unless someone has somethingfurther to say on 15 that, are also moot. 16 

### And the motion for stay of 17 proceedings and the motion to strike, the 18 timeliness argument are moot. So, that takes 19 care of all of those motions. 20 

### MR. LUDWIG: Judge, we filed an 21 answer-- I filed an answer when Mr. Armstrong 22 withdrew because it was very confusing

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### 1 procedurally at the time. So, out of an 2 abundance of caution, that is why I filed an 3 answer. 4 

### JUDGE YODER: Yes, it was filed 5 May 12. And it was prior to May 21. So, as 6 far as I can see, you are okay. So, we don't 7 have that issue in the case. 8 

### MR. LUDWIG: Okay, I just wanted 9 to be sure. 10 

### JUDGE YODER: So we then get to 11 the question of who is the real party at 12 interest in this case. And let me ask Mr. 13 

### Ellis. Do the FAA records show that these 14 planes are owned by ATP Aircraft 3, LLC and 15 Airline Transport Professionals Corp., USA? 16 

### MR. ELLIS: I have records that 17 show ownership by ATP, LLC. I remember that. 18 I also have records showing that ATP, which is 19 the party the FAA filed a complaint against 20 generally, is an affiliate of all the other 21 corporations. 22 JUDGE YODER: And where did that

NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLANDAVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-443327 1 

### record come from? 2 

### MR. ELLIS: I show corporate 3 

### records to the extent that I 

### could piece 4 

### together how these entities are connected. 5 

### And it appears there are several different 6 

### versions of the corporation, some of which own 7 

### airplanes, some of which are located in 8 

### different states that they operate together 9 

### and introduce themselves as ATP. 10 JUDGE YODER: 

### When you say they 11 

### are affiliates, what do you mean by that? 12 MR. ELLIS: Well, I looked on one 13 

### of their contracts for one place, among 14 

### others. And that is what they say. They 15 

### operate collectively as ATP but they are 16 

### separate corporations under the umbrella. 17 JUDGE YODER: 

### Can you give us a 18 

### specific reference for that? 19 

### MR. ELLIS: One reference is the 20 

### independent contractor agreement that they 21 signed with their pilots. I 

### think I 

### probably 22 attached some other information in

NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERSANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLANDAVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-443328 1 complainant's motion to strike and motion for 2 stay. 3 JUDGE YODER: So, is that a 4 document that you filed in one of the motions? 5 MR. ELLIS: The contractor 6 agreement probably isn't. The other things 7 that I attached were things I retrieved from 8 different sources. I can look through those. 9 JUDGE YODER: Okay, I gather the 10 reason you didn't send that to me was it 11 wasn't something that was exchanged between 12 the parties. 13 MR. ELLIS: Well, that was a 14 contract between ATP and one of the witnesses 15 in our case. 16 JUDGE YODER: Well, I understand 17 that. But the order directed that any 18 documents that have been exchangedand haven't 19 been provided to the judge shouldbe provided. 20 MR. ELLIS: Well, these weren't 21 exchanged between the FAA and ATP. They were 22 just

-- it was a contract between one of our

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### 1 witnesses and ATP. 2 JUDGE YODER: What I just heard 3 you say is that you intentionally served ATP, 4 

### Inc. because

-- 5 

### MR. ELLIS: We didn't serve ATP, 6 

### Inc. We served ATP. 7 

### JUDGE YODER: Oh, okay, ATP 8 because it is the head name in an affiliation 9 of entities. 10 

### MR. ELLIS: Yes. 11 JUDGE YODER: Okay. And you did 12 not serve either of the corporations shown as 13 

### owners. Is that correct? 14 

### MR. ELLIS: That is correct. 15 

### JUDGE YODER: Okay, and the reason 16 for that was that you understood that what? 17 

### MR. ELLIS: The information we 18 have is that ATP is the primary entity. 19 

### JUDGE YODER: I see. Mr. Ludwig 20 

### 21 MR. LUDWIG: Your Honor, may I 22 just

--

NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERSAND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLANDAVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-443330 1 JUDGE YODER: Do you dispute that, 2 Mr. Ludwig? 3 MR. LUDWIG: Well, it is very 4 curious, Your Honor, because the final notice 5 of proposed civil penalty was issued to an 6 entitycalledAirlineTransport Professionals. 7 JUDGE YODER: Yes. 8 MR. LUDWIG: And then it got 9 somehow changed and added Airline Transport 10 Professionals, Inc. We maintain that there is 11 no Airline Transport Professionals. There is 12 an Airline Transport Professionals, Inc., 13 which is a Georgia corporation. 14 JUDGE YODER: Do you use the term 15 ATP in your business? 16 MR. LUDWIG: The website uses just 17 a logo, Airline Pilot

-- or ATP. It is just 18 called Airline Transport Professionals. But 19 the corporate entity is Airline Transport 20 Professionals, Inc. 21 JUDGE YODER: Do your business 22 cards use ATP?

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1 MR. LUDWIG: Just the three 2 letters? 3 JUDGE YODER: No, Airline 4 Transport Professionals. 5 MR. LUDWIG: I think it uses 6 Airline Transport Professionals, Inc., if I 7 recall correctly. I don't have one of their 8 business cards in front of me. 9 MR. ELLIS: Well, I have

-- if I 10 may, Your Honor? 11 JUDGE YODER: Yes. 12 MR. ELLIS: The attachment to the 13 Complainant'smotion to Strike and the motion 14 for stay, Exhibit 5, lists of the cards that 15 they use, at least for the individuals who 16 came to our informal. 17 JUDGE YODER: What page is that? 18 MR. ELLIS: Government Exhibit 5. 19 JUDGE YODER: Do you have a page 20 number? 21 MR. ELLIS: Sorry, I don't have a 22 page number.

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1 

### JUDGE YODER: Let me find it then. 2 

### MR. LUDWIG: Gerald, this is on 3 Complainant's motion to strike respondent's 4 timeliness argument or which one? 5 

### MR. ELLIS: Yes. 6 

### MR. LUDWIG: Let me see what I 7 have got there. 8 

### MR. ELLIS: And there are several 9 other documents attached to prove that point, 10 Your Honor. 11 

### MR. LUDWIG: Hold on just a 12 second. Let me get down to your exhibit here. 13 

### JUDGE YODER: Well, he's not 14 saying exhibit. I am looking at maintenance 15 logs. Do you know the maintenance logs, Mr. 16 Ludwig? 17 

### MR. LUDWIG: Yes, I am aware of 18 the maintenance logs. 19 

### JUDGE YODER: Do you know the ones 20 in that exhibit? 21 MR. LUDWIG: I am looking at the 22 

### Government's exhibit. Well, I am down to

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### 1 four. 2 

### JUDGE YODER: I don't know what 3 exhibit this is. I have it as page 15, 

### page 4 16 

### or -- 5 

### MR. LUDWIG: Yes, I am seeing. It 6 

### is Exhibit 5. 7 

### JUDGE YODER: Okay. 8 

### MR. LUDWIG: The five cards. 9 

### JUDGE YODER: It says ATP 10 

### maintenance log, Airline Transport 11 

### Professionals, no Inc. Do you see those 12 documents? 13 It also has I don't know what this 14 document is, it is the most respected in pilot 15 

### certification, ATP, Airline Transport 16 

### Professionals. No Inc. 17 Airline career pilot program, 338 18 ATP graduates hired by airlines in the last 12 19 months. 20 

### MR. LUDWIG: I think that is 21 probably off the website. 22 

### JUDGE YODER: Okay. Yes, and on

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### 1 page 24 of 31, exhibit 5 shows five business 2 

### cards,

-- 3 

### MR. LUDWIG: Yes, sir, I have got 4 

### that one. 5 

### JUDGE YODER:

-- all of which show 6 

### ATP, Airline Transport Professionals. 7 

### MR. LUDWIG: Yes, sir. I agree. 8 

### No, sir, I absolutely agree. 9 

### JUDGE YODER: Okay, would you be 10 surprisedthat someonemight suggest that Inc. 11 was doing business as ATP? 12 MR. LUDWIG: Well, in their final 13 Notice of Proposed Civil Penalty, Mr. Ellis 14 

### addresses this to Airline Transport 15 Professionals, Inc., the one dated February 16 25, 2001. 17 

### JUDGE YODER: Yes, well, that 18 shouldn't surprise you. That was the name. 19 MR. LUDWIG: No, sir, that doesn't 20 surprise me at all. And then the

-- 21 JUDGE YODER: If you look at page 22 32 of 64 in that document, a letter to Mr.

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### 1 Slaughterfrom Mr. Koziarski dated October 24, 2 2008. Do you see that letter? 3 

### MR. LUDWIG: No, sir. I can't put 4 my finger on it. There are so many documents 5 in here. 6 

### JUDGE YODER: It is numbered 32 of 7 

### 64. 8 

### MR. LUDWIG: Is it under an 9 exhibit, a Government exhibit number? 10 

### JUDGE YODER: Well, it is in the 11 motion, in fact in your response to the motion 12 to strike. It is your document. And it is, 13 I have got a penciled page number 20 and I 14 have got a typed in page 32 of 64. 15 

### MR. LUDWIG: I'm sure I can find 16 it eventually. I'm sorry, what is the 17 question, Your Honor? 18 

### JUDGE YODER: Well, that document 19 is on stationary which says ATP, Airline 20 Transport Professionals. 21 MR. LUDWIG: Yes and it does not 22 have Inc. on it.

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### JUDGE YODER: It does not have 2 Inc. 3 

### MR. LUDWIG: Yes, sir. 4 

### JUDGE YODER: And it says we are 5 

### confident

-- quote: We are confident our 6 maintenanceprocedures provide for a safe and 7 airworthy fleet, and that they are fully 8 compliant with the FAA requirements for a Part 9 61 flight school. Period, closed quote. 10 

### MR. LUDWIG: Yes, sir. 11 

### JUDGE YODER: Signed Jim 12 Koziarski. 13 

### MR. LUDWIG: Okay. 14 

### JUDGE YODER: No Inc. And that 15 is, I think, not the only document in here 16 supplied by Respondent, which uses the name 17 that way. 18 Let me -- Mr. Ellis, do you have 19 the leases that are referred to with respect 20 to these claims? 21 MR. ELLIS: I have a blue ribbon 22 file and I do have at least one of those

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### 1 leases. 2 JUDGE YODER: They were provided 3 to you by Respondent. 4 

### MR. ELLIS: No, I either got them 5 

### through Oak City or through some other means. 6 

### JUDGE YODER: Oh, all right. 7 

### MR. LUDWIG: I am not sure that I 8 

### have seen those, Gerald. 9 

### JUDGE YODER: Okay. 10 

### MR. ELLIS: Yes, we haven't 11 exchanged discovery. 12 JUDGE YODER: I hope you will keep 13 records of these documents that we mentioned. 14 That is the second group that we have 15 mentioned. The first one was the document you 16 had that showed ATP as the operator. 17 

### MR. LUDWIG: Your Honor, may I 18 just kind of suggest that maybe Mr. Ellis, who 19 seems to have more documents than we do, maybe 20 provide us with a Bates stamped copy so that 21 if we get to trial on this, we can all be 22 playing off of a numbered

--

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### 1 JUDGE YODER: Yes. Well, I want 2 somebody to provide these to me. It doesn't 3 make too much difference. I will let you 4 folks figure out who does it. I just want it 5 done. 6 

### MR. LUDWIG: Yes, sir. 7 

### JUDGE YODER: And I want it done 8 within a certain period of time after we 9 finish today. 10 

### MR. ELLIS: Normally, we exchange 11 documents when the parties agree to discovery. 12 

### JUDGE YODER: Normallywe exchange 13 documents when I tell people to. 14 

### MR. ELLIS: Of course. 15 

### JUDGE YODER: Okay? 16 

### MR. ELLIS: I'm just saying that 17 is the reason we didn't exchange with 18 Respondent. 19 

### JUDGE YODER: Yes, I understand 20 that. 21 

### Okay, so anyway, those are two 22 different documents that will need to be

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### 1 included in that group. And if Mr. Ellis has 2 them, that is fine, he can provide them. But 3 I'm not sure that he has the leases. It would 4 seem to me that the leases should be provided 5 by ATP, if you don't mind my calling the 6 Respondent ATP. 7 

### MR. LUDWIG: No, sir. I think 8 

### that is a lot easier. And just so we are 9 clear on the record, which leases are your -- 10 is Your Honor specifically

-- 11 

### JUDGE YODER: The ones that are 12 referred to with respect to the two planes at 13 issue here. 14 

### MR. LUDWIG: Okay. 15 

### JUDGE YODER: Okay? 16 

### MR. LUDWIG: And those would be 17 leases between let's call it ATP and the 18 owner? 19 

### JUDGE YODER: Well,

-- 20 

### MR. LUDWIG: I don't know if they 21 exist but if they do, we can find out. 22 JUDGE YODER: Well, it would be

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### 1 good for you if they did exist, since you have 2 said they were leased. 3 

### MR. LUDWIG: Well, they were 4 leased, by virtue of my understanding of an 5 oral agreement between the parties. 6 

### JUDGE YODER: Oh, so these are 7 oral leases? 8 

### MR. LUDWIG: That is what I have 9 been told by my client, Your Honor. 10 

### JUDGE YODER: Do you have records 11 of payment under those leases? 12 MR. LUDWIG: I can't answer that. 13 I will have to find out but I will. 14 

### JUDGE YODER: You understand if 15 this goes to trial, you are going to wind up 16 with a full-scale examinationof the financial 17 interrelationships of all these corporations 18 and this is just going to be one part of that. 19 Because the issue here is going to be who is 20 operating these planes and who is actually 21 running the operation? You might as well get 22 ready for that.

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### 1 The information I had was that 2 N575AT was owned by ATP Aircraft

-- 3 MR. LUDWIG: ATP Aircraft 3 LLC, a 4 Delaware Corporation. Yes, sir. 5 

### JUDGE YODER: Have you got a 6 certificateof ownershipwith respect to that? 7 

### MR. LUDWIG: Yes. In fact, on the 8 inspector's iterns of proof, when they sent it 9 to counsel, they printed out their internal 10 document they hold showing that N575AT was 11 registered to ATP Aircraft 3, LLC. 12 

### JUDGE YODER: Right and it was 13 leased to ATP USA, Inc. 14 

### MR. LUDWIG: Yes. 15 

### JUDGE YODER: And the other one 16 was also leased to ATP. 17 

### MR. LUDWIG: Yes, and that was on 18 owned by Airline Transport Professionals Corp 19 USA, a Delaware Corporation. 20 

### JUDGE YODER: Oh, corp? 21 

### MR. LUDWIG: Corp USA. Corp USA. 22 JUDGE YODER: Corp USA?

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1 

### MR. LUDWIG: Yes, and that is a 2 completely separate corporation, Airline 3 Transport Professionals Corp USA, a Delaware 4 Corp. 5 

### JUDGE YODER: Do you know who owns 6 these corporations? 7 

### MR. LUDWIG: I think various 8 

### people do. You know they get people to buy 9 

### them and they lease them. There is a now 10 11 

### JUDGE YODER: They get people to 12 buy them. Who is they? 13 

### MR. LUDWIG: I guess the operators 14 of what is called ATP. 15 

### JUDGE YODER: Who are the 16 operators of ATP? 17 

### MR. LUDWIG: I guess it would be 18 the shareholders and I don't know who those 19 are. 20 

### JUDGE YODER: Okay, you will. You 21 didn't consider that to be a fact at issue. 22 MR. LUDWIG: Who the owners are?

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### 1 JUDGE YODER: Yes, sir. 2 MR. LUDWIG: It certainly could 3 be. 4 

### JUDGE YODER: Yes, that is why we 5 

### have the prehearing conference, to find out 6 

### what that informationwas. Do you understand 7 

### what I am saying? 8 

### MR. LUDWIG: Yes. 9 

### JUDGE YODER: Okay. 10 MR. LUDWIG: Now 304BK, Your 11 Honor, I mean that airplane has been retired 12 from service. 13 

### JUDGE YODER: That needn 1

### t trouble 14 us. What we are concerned about was what was 15 the situation when it was flying. 16 

### MR. LUDWIG: Right. 17 

### JUDGE YODER: Okay. Mr. Koziarski 18 submitted an affidavit in support one of your 19 motions. Are you familiar with that? 20 

### MR. LUDWIG: I recall seeing that. 21 That is one Mr. Armstrong filed, certainly. 22 It was attachedto was it complainant 1

### s motion

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### 1 to strike? No, that was -- I'm sorry. No, 2 no, no. 3 

### JUDGE YODER: Here it is. It is 4 

### page 11 

### of 64 

### in your response to 5 Complainant's motion to strike. 6 Do you have that? 7 

### MR. LUDWIG: I'm digging for it, 8 Your Honor. 9 

### JUDGE YODER: Well, it is dated 10 March 24, 2001. 11 

### MR. LUDWIG: Okay. 12 JUDGE YODER: Can you or he tell 13 me what he meant when he said as it relates to 14 Government Exhibit 1 

### Airline Transport 15 Professionals is not an entity? 16 

### MR. LUDWIG: That's right. I 

### 17 think what he meant to say was Airline 18 Transport Professionals, Inc. is the legal 19 entity. 20 JUDGE YODER: And is it your 21 understanding that that means that Airline 22 Transport Professionals is not an entity?

NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERSANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLANDAVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-443345 1 MR. LUDWIG: I am not aware of any 2 fictitious name being filed on its behalf but 3 they certainlydo business under that moniker. 4 There is no doubt about that, Judge. 5 JUDGE YODER: Well, that is what I 6 would have thought. That is why I wondered 7 how someone could swear that it is not an 8 entity. If it is doing business in ten states 9 under that name. 10 Well, anyway, that is something 11 that is going to need to be explained if this 12 case goes on. 13 MR. LUDWIG: Okay. 14 JUDGE YODER: All right. Let's 15 see what else we have got here. That name 16 winds up getting used in virtually all the 17 communicationsback and forth between FAA and 18 Mr. Koziarski. 19 MR. LUDWIG: ATP. 20 JUDGE YODER: Yes, that is what I 21 meant. 22 October 24, 2008, Mr. Koziarski

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### 1 wrote back to Mr. Slaughter and said please 2 indicate the party or parties whom ATP 3 reportedly offered an unworthy aircraft. 4 Then there is a note of an October 5 27, 2008 conversation between Mr. Slaughter 6 and Mr. Koziarski in which reference to ATP 7 was made numerous times, which is not 8 surprisingbecause that is how this operation 9 

### did business. Isn't it? 10 

### MR. LUDWIG: That is the way they 11 did their business and that is their trade 12 name, certainly. That is the way they are 13 known. Nobody is going to dispute that, Your 14 Honor. 15 

### JUDGE YODER: Well, the affidavit 16 says there is no such entity. 17 

### MR. LUDWIG: Well you know I think 18 from a legal standpoint an entity is either a 19 corporation, an LLC, or something that has 20 been filed as a fictitious name. And perhaps 21 that is what he was looking at from a purely 22 technical standpoint. I didn't prepare the

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### 1 affidavit. 2 JUDGE YODER: Yes, I know you 3 

### didn't. 4 

### Okay, let me just move on. Of 5 

### course the Notice of Proposed Civil Penalty 6 

### referred to ATP, Airline Transport 7 Professionals. Right? 8 

### MR. LUDWIG: That is correct. And 9 then through the course of it looks like the 10 documents, it went over to Airline Transport 11 

### Professionals, Inc., which is, I think, 12 technically legally the correct entity. 13 

### JUDGE YODER: Yes, well that may 14 be true but in the response to the NCP, Mr. 15 Armstrong stated that he represents Airline 16 Transport Professionals, Inc. , parenATP. And 17 then he asks for a hearing in the name of 18 Airline Transport Professionals. Didyou know 19 that? 20 

### MR. LUDWIG: No but I do see that 21 it changes back and forth and there is some 22 confusion about whether

--

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1 

### JUDGE YODER: I don't know about 2 confusion. I think the documents I have seen 3 would suggest that the names were used 4 interchangeably. 5 

### MR. LUDWIG: I agree. 6 

### JUDGE YODER: That makes it kind 7 of hard to make a technical argument that 8 somebody used one instead of the other. Do 9 you understand what I am saying? 10 

### MR. LUDWIG: I understand. 11 

### JUDGE YODER: All right. You 12 might

-- let's see. 13 

### MR. LUDWIG: The only thing I 14 don't quite understand is, although for the 15 purposes of this hearing today whether it is 16 Airline Transport Professionals, Inc. or 17 Airline Transport Professionals, we are 18 talking about the same entity but the final 19 Notice of ProposedCivil Penaltywas issued to 20 Airline Transport Professionals, Inc. 21 JUDGE YODER: Okay. 22 MR. LUDWIG: The original Notice

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### 1 of Proposed Civil Penalty was issued to the 2 President of you know. But the legal 3 document that is before this Court

-- 4 

### JUDGE YODER: The question is 5 whether you propose to try this case on the 6 basis of defendingthe positionof your client 7 that based on the difference between Airline 8 Transport Professionals and Airline Transport 9 Professionals, Inc. when the names are used 10 interchangeably. 11 

### MR. LUDWIG: No, Your Honor, I do 12 not intend to keep marshaling that defense. 13 However, of course, we do adamantly maintain 14 the defense about whether or not the aircraft 15 was in airworthycondition, which is what this 16 is all about. 17 

### JUDGE YODER: Well, that is one of 18 the aircraft. 19 

### MR. LUDWIG: Well, both. 20 

### MR. ELLIS: No, it is not. 21 JUDGE YODER: Actually, it was 22 both but as of the final notice, it became

--

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1 

### as of the complaint, it became one. The 2 unairworthiness assertion dropped out for 3 whatever reason. 4 

### MR. LUDWIG: And it went over to a 5 paperwork log book entry issue. 6 

### JUDGE YODER: I can tell you. 7 

### MR. LUDWIG: The one -- hello? 8 

### JUDGE YODER: Yes, I'm here. Did 9 we lose anybody? 10 

### MR. ELLIS: No, I'm still here. 11 

### JUDGE YODER: Is the reporter 12 there? 13 

### COURT REPORTER: Yes, the reporter 14 is here. 15 

### MR. LUDWIG: Okay, I'm here. 16 

### JUDGE YODER: That's scary. All 17 right. 18 Let's just look here at 304BK

-- 19 

### MR. LUDWIG: That's the one about 20 the radio. 21 JUDGE YODER: Right. And that is 22 the one that the airworthinessdropped out of.

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1 

### MR. LUDWIG: That's correct. 2 JUDGE YODER: And the other one, 3 

### there are three complaints left three 4 counts left with respect to that claim. And 5 

### with respect to the other claim, there are two 6 

### counts and one of those is the airworthiness 7 

### one, relating to the fuel pump. Is that on 8 

### the MEL, Mr. Ellis? 9 

### MR. ELLIS: I can't say. I 10 

### haven't looked at that particular issue. 11 

### JUDGE YODER: Well, presumably it 12 

### is alleged to be unairworthybecause the fuel 13 

### pump wasn't operative. Is that right? 14 

### MR. ELLIS: Correct. 15 

### MR. LUDWIG: Yes, that is 16 paragraph number two, he says the right fuel 17 pump was inoperative. 18 

### JUDGE YODER: Right, yes. 19 

### MR. LUDWIG: And we say no, it 20 

### wasn't. It was operative. 21 

### JUDGE YODER: You say it wasn't 22 inoperative?

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### MR. LUDWIG: Yes, sir. We 2 maintain that fuel pump was operative. It was 3 a new type fuel pump and the pilot who 4 complainedabout it didn't know that Piper had 5 issued a service bulletin saying that these 6 pumps don't make noise anymore, click, click, 7 click. So that when you turned it on like in 8 an old Piper, they put a new style fuel pump 9 ln that doesn't make noise. 10 

### JUDGE YODER: Okay. 11 

### MR. LUDWIG: So, that is 12 JUDGE YODER: Have you heard that 13 before, Mr. Ellis? 14 

### MR. ELLIS: No. 15 

### JUDGE YODER: Okay. Well, that is 16 something you guys might want to talk about. 17 It strikes me as pretty silly to have a 18 hearing if, in fact, you fellows aren't 19 communicating about how the pump works. 20 

### MR. ELLIS: Now, I'm pretty sure 21

-- and I guess I shouldn't say anymore. But 22 I will reserve that statement.

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1 JUDGE YODER: That complaint was 2 based on an inspector's report, was it not, 3 Mr. Ellis? 4 MR. ELLIS: Yes, I believe there 5 would have been some maintenancerecords along 6 with it. 7 JUDGE YODER: So, Mr. Ludwig, are 8 you contending that the inspectors weren't up 9 to speed on what these things were supposed to 10 sound like? 11 MR. LUDWIG: That is what we 12 maintain because when we had a couple of 13 complaints, they checked to make sure that the 14 pump was operational. In fact, they replaced 15 a good pump with another good pump and the new 16 pumps don't make any noise. I mean, it gets 17 fuel pressure. 18 JUDGE YODER: Oh, you did replace 19 the pump? 20 MR. LUDWIG: Twice. I mean the 21 first time they replaced it and then they were 22 complaining it wasn't pumping. Well, they

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### 1 couldn't hear it 1ike they were used to. And 2 then they put a second one in there and it 3 

### doesn't make any noise either. That's because 4 

### there wasn't anything the matter with it. 5 

### JUDGE YODER: Okay, but the first 6 

### one that you mentioned is the one that they 7 

### are referring to September 23? 8 

### MR. LUDWIG: I believe so, Your 9 

### Honor. In fact, it strikes me that at some 10 point in time Mr. Ellis or his office was 11 supplied with a copy of the Piper service 12 bulletin on that. 13 

### JUDGE YODER: Okay, well, I will 14 

### let you gentlemen get together. 15 

### MR. LUDWIG: Yes. I mean, that is 16 

### something between us. 17 JUDGE YODER: Let me see here. 18 There is an October 27, 2008 telephone call 19 

### with Mr. Koziarski and Mr. Slaughter 20 reportedly asked him how a pilot documents a 21 discrepancy on an ATP aircraft and wrote: He 22 informedme that they are to call maintenance.

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1 

### Again, that is ATP maintenance. Is that 2 right? 3 

### MR. LUDWIG: Yes, sir. There is 4 an 800 number they call, I think. 5 

### JUDGE YODER: Then asked how a 6 different pilot would know that the aircraft 7 had a discrepancy and he stated that all 8 pilots must call dispatch, and again, that is 9 

### ATP dispatch. Is that right? 10 MR. LUDWIG: Yes, sir. 11 

### JUDGE YODER: It would tell them 12 if the aircraft is airworthy or not. 13 Do you disagree with that? 14 

### MR. LUDWIG: That is what the 15 inspector was writing down. I don't know

-- 16 I wasn't there when the conversation took 17 place but it says what it says. 18 JUDGE YODER: That is the way the 19 maintenance operation works. 20 

### MR. LUDWIG: Right, they call in 21 on a number, like I said. 22 JUDGE YODER: And they tell the

NEALR. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERSANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLANDAVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-443356 1 caller whether the plane is airworthy or not. 2 Right? 3 MR. LUDWIG: I guess if it is 4 available for dispatch and it is not in 5 maintenance of some sort, that is what they 6 tell. But again, I would have to discuss

-- 7 JUDGE YODER: I am asking you 8 about what he purportedly said. So, you might 9 want to figure out how that is actually done. 10 I asked how did the information 11 get relayed to dispatch from maintenance and 12 he stated electronically. 13 MR. LUDWIG: I guess in an email. 14 JUDGE YODER: That would suggest 15 that maintenanceand dispatch are not the same 16 offices. 17 MR. LUDWIG: I don't think they 18 are physically in the same place, Your Honor. 19 JUDGE YODER: Okay. Well, that 20 would suggest they aren't in the same offices, 21 wou1dn't it? 22 MR. LUDWIG: Sure.

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1 JUDGE YODER: That was one of the 2 questions we had earlier. 3 Then we have got Mr. Armstrong's 4 letter. And it says that in summary, as best 5 as I can tell from the informationprovidedto 6 me, the FAA is pursuing the wrong person. It 7 should be going after the pilot in command of 8 the flight, assuming without conceding that 9 the aircraft was in any way unairworthy. And 10 that hearkens back to your earlier suggestion 11 that it is the pilot who is in command who 12 makes the determination as to whether the 13 aircraft is airworthy. 14 MR. LUDWIG: Ultimately, he is the 15 one to make that determinationbefore he goes. 16 Yes, sir, that is pretty fundamental. 17 JUDGE YODER: The question is 18 whether he is the only one that makes that 19 determination, not whether ultimately he is 20 the final one who makes it. 21 MR. LUDWIG: I think his 22 discussions, if he has one with dispatch, is

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### 1 part of his decision. Whether the aircraft is 2 airworthyor not, he may dispatch and they say 3 it is airworthy and he goes up and does a run 4 up and the mag is bad all of a sudden, then it 5 is up to the pilot in command not to continue 6 with the flight until the problem is 7 rectified. 8 

### JUDGE YODER: Okay, then we have 9 got a bunch of communication recordings in 10 here suggestingthat Mr. Koziarski was telling 11 people not to ground the aircraft. 12 September 18, 2008, Mr. Slaughter 13 noted that Todd, I gather that is Kallenbach, 14 stated that he is always pressured from 15 dispatch and the VP, that is Mr. Koziarski, 16 did not ground the aircraft. 17 

### MR. LUDWIG: Though we absolutely 18 that Mr. Koziarski was telling people to 19 dispatch an unsafe aircraft. 20 JUDGE YODER: Let me ask the other 21 question, though. Who is Todd? Who was 22 Kallenbach? He was the site manager,

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### 1 according to September 12, 2008. 2 MR. LUDWIG: He is no longer with 3 ATP, as I understand it. 4 

### JUDGE YODER: I understand but he 5 was, at that point, a site manager. 6 

### MR. LUDWIG: He was a pilot. 7 Whatever they mean by the flight manager, I am 8 not quite sure. 9 

### JUDGE YODER: Right. In that 10 September 12, 2008 memo, it refers to an 11 anonymous complaint but it identifies Todd as 12 the site manager. 13 And then it says Todd stated that 14 he is always pressured from dispatch to not 15 ground the aircraft. That would suggest that, 16 whether you accept this as true or not, it 17 would suggest that Todd, the site manager, is 18 the one who grounds aircraft. 19 

### MR. LUDWIG: That is what it would 20 suggest. And like I said, these operations 21 are independent and, ultimately, through 22 whether you call it dispatch or you call it

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### 1 the chief pilot who is in that particular 2 location, it is a collective decision that I 3 believe is used by the person who checks out 4 the airplane, whether or not the airplane is 5 airworthy or not. 6 

### JUDGE YODER: Do you know what a 7 site manager does? 8 

### MR. LUDWIG: Well, I don't know 9 where that term came up. They had what they 10 call chief pilots but I am not aware of 11 anybody by the name of a site manager. That 12 is something that that inspector used, Your 13 Honor. 14 

### JUDGE YODER: I see. Okay, well, 15 we will want to know if there is such a thing. 16 

### MR. LUDWIG: Are you looking at 17 the IOPs on the

-- 18 

### JUDGE YODER: No, I am just 19 looking at my prep for this. 20 

### MR. LUDWIG: Okay. 21 JUDGE YODER: And it has a series 22 of questions and you are probablynot going to

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### 1 be able to answer them at this point but I 2 want them answered before we go to hearing. 3 I want the legal relationship between these 4 four companies. I want to know whether they 5 are separately owned and operated with 6 

### separate corporate formalities observed. I 

### 7 want to know whether they share executives or 8 personnel at that time, whether they share 9 investors. Are they held out to the public as 10 a single entity with ATP? 11 

### MR. LUDWIG: And just to be 12 absolutely clear, I think I am clear what you 13 want. 14 

### JUDGE YODER: Yes. 15 

### MR. LUDWIG: Airline Transport 16 Professionals, Inc. and then the two separate 17 entities that own the, the two separate corps 18 that own 19 

### JUDGE YODER: Aircraft 3 and ATP 20 Corp and ATP USA. Those are the four. 21 MR. LUDWIG: Okay. 22 JUDGE YODER: Yes. Do we know who

NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERSAND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLANDAVE., N.W WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-443362 1 employed Daniel Stern, a flight instructor of 2 575AT on September 23, 2008? 3 MR. LUDWIG: I don't know but I am 4 sure we can find out, Your Honor. 5 JUDGE YODER: And who employed the 6 instructor on the other plane on the date in 7 question? 8 MR. LUDWIG: So basically, who 9 employed the flight instructors? 10 JUDGE YODER: Excuse me? 11 MR. LUDWIG: Basically, you want 12 to know who employed the flight instructors. 13 JUDGE YODER: Yes. Right, 14 exactly. 15 MR. LUDWIG: Yes, sir. 16 JUDGE YODER: And as you look up 17 that information, you might have a look at a 18 couple of cases. One of them, I decided in 19 2004. It was CVS Corp. 2004-WL-419873. That 20 was an FAA case. 21 MR. LUDWIG: 204-WL-419783? 22 JUDGE YODER: No, 873.

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1 MR. LUDWIG: Okay, let me read 2 that back to you 419873. 3 JUDGE YODER: That's right. And 4 that was an FAA case but not a case where the 5 issue of who was an operator was involved. 6 But it was a case where Respondents were held 7 responsible, in spite of separate corporations 8 being suggested as involved. 9 Then there was Fincher v. 10 Williamson Transport Co. That is 2006-WL11 728813. That is Judge Goodwin. Again, not an 12 aviation case but one having to do with 13 distinctive

-- 14 MR. LUDWIG: Entities. 15 JUDGE YODER: Yes, right. You can 16 compare that one to Air Solutions, LLC and Air 17 Solutions Group, Inc. , which was a Judge 18 Benkin case in 2006, WL-3851155. That was an 19 FAA case. But he concluded there were 20 separate officers, stockholders, business, 21 quoters, everything was really separate. 22 Okay and you will be briefing this

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1 before we go to hearing. So, what we are 2 going to want to know is what your position is 3 on this question of separate entities. 4 It would be nice if we could 5 resolve this on the basis of pumps not making 6 noise. But if it isn't resolved, it is going 7 to get complicated. 8 All right. All right, so then we 9 wind up with two violations for 575AT and that 10 is the right fuel pump and failing to repair 11 it. Anditwasn'tairworthy. So, ifthefuel 12 pump was okay, then you have solved both of 13 those questions. If it wasn't okay, you have 14 probably lost on both of them. 15 So, you see where the issue is 16 there. And they proposed civil penalty there 17 as $37,500. The other one, there had been 18 five violations but you wound up with three. 19 And those are a radio or two that didn't 20 operate, allegedly. 21 MR. LUDWIG: One radio. 22 JUDGE YODER: Was it just one?

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### 1 Because their reference is to two. 2 

### MR. LUDWIG: There reference is to 3 

### two but it really only involves one radio and 4 

### the airplane

-- 5 

### JUDGE YODER: Do you agree with 6 

### that, Mr. Ellis? 7 

### MR. LUDWIG: has two radios. 8 

### MR. ELLIS: I know the issue 9 

### involved two radios and I think one was 10 

### inoperative. I think that was the case. 11 

### JUDGE YODER: So, is the 12 allegation that one was inoperative? 13 

### MR. ELLIS: I think the allegation 14 was involving the documentation of the issue 15 and operating without documenting the issue 16 properly. 17 

### JUDGE YODER: I got that. The 18 question was are we talking about one or two 19 radios? 20 

### MR. ELLIS: Well, generally, there 21 are two radios at issue. 22 

### JUDGE YODER: In this case?

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1 

### MR. ELLIS: In the case. 2 JUDGE YODER: Okay because I just 3 4 

### MR. LUDWIG: That is not what it 5 says. 6 

### MR. ELLIS: Yes, I mean I think we 7 

### agree on what the issue is. I am just saying 8 

### generally I can't say there aren't two radios 9 

### involved in the case. We are not saying two 10 

### radios were inoperative. 11 

### JUDGE YODER: You guys can sort 12 

### that out. Are we talking about two allegedly 13 

### bad radios or one? 14 

### And then with respect to the 15 

### maintenance record, help me with the 16 differencebetweenthese two allegations. One 17 has to do with operating an aircraft without 18 the maintenance record having been made

-- 19 

### entry. The other one has to do with making 20 sure that there is an appropriateentrybefore 21 

### it is returned to service. Are you asserting 22 that as two different violations?

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### 1 MR. ELLIS: 91.405 (a) , the failure 2 to performmaintenance without correcting the 3 discrepancy. 91.405 (b) is the failure to make 4 a proper entry into the maintenance log. 5 

### JUDGE YODER: Yes, but then you 6 also have 407 (a) (2). 7 

### MR. ELLIS: That is for operation 8 of an aircraft without required maintenance 9 entry, an operational violation. 10 JUDGE YODER: Okay. So, those are 11 three violations? 12 MR. ELLIS: Yes, sir. 13 

### JUDGE YODER: Okay. And so that 14 15 MR. LUDWIG: But Your Honor, the 16 problem here is is paragraph two. Is it one 17 and/or two? Is it for each one? So, when he 18 says one and/or number two communication 19 radios were inoperative. There was only one. 20 JUDGE YODER: Well, that is why I 21 am suggesting you both get together and talk 22 about whether we are talking about one radio

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### 1 or two radios. 2 

### And that will come up in 3 

### connection with my next question, too. The 4 civil penalty sought here is $68,749. And we 5 don't have any indication of how those were 6 computed. Mr. Ellis, you are going to have to 7 provide that for us. 8 

### MR. ELLIS: Hold on a second, 9 Judge. 10 MR. LUDWIG: Wait a minute. It's 11 $32,000, Your Honor. 12 MR. ELLIS: Yes, I don't think 13 that was 14 JUDGE YODER: Oh, I'm sorry, 15 $32,000. Excuse me. It started out as 16 $68,749. Pardon me. 17 MR. ELLIS: Right. 18 JUDGE YODER: All right it is 19 $32,000 for three violations and let's see, 20 the other one was 21 MR. LUDWIG: $37,500. 22 JUDGE YODER:

-- $37,000 for two

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### 1 violations. 2 

### MR. LUDWIG: $37,500. 3 

### JUDGE YODER: Right. Can you help 4 me understand why, Mr. Ellis? 5 

### MR. ELLIS: Yes, Your Honor. We 6 are prepared to do that. 7 

### JUDGE YODER: Well, can you help 8 me understand it now? 9 

### MR. ELLIS: Okay. For 91.405(a), 10 let 1

### s see, let 1

### s go to the beginning. Of 11 course the only issues that we have some 12 conflict with is whether this company is a 13 large business or not. So, we considered it 14 to be a large business. And using that, 15 JUDGE YODER: What is the dollar 16 figure there, Mr. Ellis? 17 MR. ELLIS: Well, there is a range 18 from $2,200 at the minimum to $25,000 per 19 regulation at the maximum. 20 JUDGE YODER: Yes. 21 MR. ELLIS: Okay, 91.405, our 22 sanction guides go from moderate to maximum.

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### 1 And 91.405 (a) goes from moderate to maximumon 2 that particular reg; 91.405 (b) goes from 3 minimum to moderate. 4 

### JUDGE YODER: Excuse me. 5 

### MR. ELLIS: And 91.407(a)(2) 6 

### JUDGE YODER: Hold on. Reporter, 7 are you still there? 8 

### COURT REPORTER: Yes, I'm still 9 here. 10 JUDGE YODER: Okay. When we hear 11 dial tones, we get nervous. Okay, thank you. 12 All right, well you can submit 13 something to explain that. But it has to do 14 with the size of the Respondent and so that 15 has to do with who the appropriate Respondent 16 is, I guess. 17 MR. ELLIS: That is correct. 18 

### JUDGE YODER: And you calculated 19 this based on what, the whole affiliation, the 20 wholeness of the companies? 21 MR. ELLIS: Yes. 22 MR. LUDWIG: So you added all of

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### 1 them together to come to the conclusion that 2 Airline Transport Professionals, Inc. was a 3 

### large company? I just want to make sure I 4 understand that, Gerald. 5 

### MR. ELLIS: Yes, we allege that 6 ATP is a large company, a large business 7 concern. 8 

### JUDGE YODER: Okay. 9 

### MR. LUDWIG: And just for the 10 record, we deny that. 11 

### JUDGE YODER: Okay. I have got 12 one more. Is Respondent asserting inability 13 to pay as a factor in the level of penalties? 14 

### MR. LUDWIG: Yes, sir. This 15 

### company, obviously, does training. It has 16 suffered immensely during this recession. As 17 Your Honor knows, the aviation, especially 18 training, just about dropped off the face of 19 

### the earth. It's starting to come back a 20 little bit but we are still 21 JUDGE YODER: Okay, when you say 22 this company, you are talking about Inc.

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1 

### MR. LUDWIG: I was talking about 2 Inc. That is who Mr. Ellis is pointed his

-- 3 

### JUDGE YODER: I understand. So, 4 if you are talking about Inc. and you are 5 

### talking about inability to pay, then you are 6 

### going to have to submit financials. Mr. Ellis 7 

### has a form that you normally fill that out 8 

### because if you want that considered as a 9 

### factor, you have to prove your financials in 10 

### order to demonstrate that ability to pay 11 

### should be considered. 12 

### MR. LUDWIG: I think those were 13 

### given to them at the informal conference, Your 14 

### Honor. 15 

### JUDGE YODER: Well, I don't have 16 

### it. 17 

### MR. LUDWIG: Yes, okay. 18 

### JUDGE YODER: So, that needs to be 19 

### provided. And if this is going to go to 20 hearing we are going to get embroiled in 21 

### whether this is a single company, a single 22 enterprise operating under a one name with a

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1 bunch of different corporations, then you are 2 probably looking at financials on all the 3 companies. Do you understand what I am 4 saying? 5 MR. LUDWIG: Well, you know we are 6 kind of disregarding the separation of 7 corporations. I mean that is why people 8 operate in separate corporations. And I don't 9 think, Your Honor, that they file a 10 consolidated tax return. I think they file 11 individual tax returns. 12 So, lumping them all together is, 13 in a way, problematic. But I will have to 14 look into that. 15 JUDGE YODER: Because at the end 16 of the day, the issue here is going to be who 17 is operating these aircraft. And that means 18 within this combination of companies, were 19 they working together to operate the aircraft? 20 And you can look at the case law. The 21 question is who winds up operating the 22 aircraft. And that can be more than one. And

NEALR. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERSAND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLANDAVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-443374 1 it certainly normally is not the person who 2 flies the airplane. I think that would be 3 very rare to come up with a conclusion that 4 the operator under the FARs is the person who 5 flies the plane. They may be an operator but 6 the question is who is the operator for this 7 purpose. And that is what we are going to be 8 looking at. 9 So, what I had in mind is that 10 hopefully you guys will get together and talk 11 about resolving this in some way and then you 12 will get back to me and let me know whether it 13 is getting settled or it is not getting 14 settled. 15 MR. LUDWIG: Your Honor, I don't 16 want the Court to get the impression that Mr. 17 Ellis and I have had a problem communicating 18 because anytime I have reached out or he has 19 reached out, he has always or we have always 20 been able to talk with each other. 21 JUDGE YODER: Oh, I understand. I 2 2 am just trying to think in terms of a schedule

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### 1 for where we go from here. And I was hoping 2 that two weeks might be enough time for you 3 fellows to talk about that. 4 

### MR. LUDWIG: If Gerald's schedule 5 allows chatting within the next two weeks, it 6 certainlywon't be this afternoonbut sometime 7 next week I represent that I will call Mr. 8 

### Ellis. I understand he has moved and I don't 9 have

-- I think Your Honor gave me -- Gerald 10 a new phone number 404-305-5200? 11 

### MR. ELLIS: 5200 is the general 12 office number. You can always reach me on 13 that. My office is in the same place I just 14 have a new position. 15 MR. LUDWIG: Okay. Do you have a 16 direct line, sir? 17 

### MR. ELLIS: 5204. 18 

### JUDGE YODER: Now, we also have 19 identified some documents that we wanted 20 submitted. You can have the same date for the 21 submission of those. You can have an earlier 22 date or you can have a date after you decide

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### 1 whether you can settle it. Which way do you 2 want to do it? 3 

### MR. ELLIS: I think it makes more 4 sense to talk settlement and then go on the 5 

### record. We can agree on it now, if you want 6 

### to. It's all right with me. 7 

### JUDGE YODER: That's fine. We 8 will do two weeks and then you will get back 9 to me and let me know whether it is settling. 10 Two weeks from that date for the submissionof 11 the various documents we talked about wouldbe 12 September 5. Two weeks from today is August 13 22. That is the date you will get back to me 14 and you will let me know whether we are going 15 forward or we are settling. 16 And then

-- 17 

### MR. ELLIS: What was that date 18 again, Your Honor? I'm sorry. 19 

### JUDGE YODER: August 22 is two 20 weeks from today. 21 MR. ELLIS: Okay. 22 JUDGE YODER: And then so,

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### 1 somebody will call me and let me know where we 2 are going. 3 And then two weeks from that date 4 would

-- 5 

### MR. LUDWIG: September 5th. 6 

### JUDGE YODER: be September 5 7 for submission of documents. 8 Then I want pretrial briefs on the 9 subject of the responsibilityof the entities. 10 And I want the information on the ability to 11 pay in the submission of documents. So, you 12 will want to brief the question of penalty 13 level and justifying it, based on size or 14 whatever. 15 

### So, we will need

-- 16 

### MR. LUDWIG: When would you like 17 that, Your Honor? 18 

### JUDGE YODER: Well, the 19 information on how it is being done should 20 come in on the document submission date. 21 MR. LUDWIG: The September 5th? 22 JUDGE YODER: Yes, and then you

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### 1 can argue about it on the brief date. And I 2 was putting two weeks after the document date 3 but it is really up to you. 4 

### Two weeks after that would be 5 

### September 19, if that works. If it doesn't 6 work, we can move it out. 7 

### MR. LUDWIG: Maybe we could push 8 

### it out to the end. I have got some things 9 coming up, Your Honor. How about, could we 10 possibly push that to September 30th? 11 

### JUDGE YODER: Sure. 12 MR. LUDWIG: Is that all right 13 with you, Gerald? 14 

### MR. ELLIS: Yes, I need to 15 let's see. Okay, August 22nd we will talk 16 

### some. September 5th submission of docs and 17 regarding pretrial briefs and the ability to 18 pay and penalty level, those are all due the 19 19th or are those separate dates? 20 JUDGE YODER: That was the 19th 21 and he was going to make it the 30th. 22 MR. ELLIS: Okay.

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### JUDGE YODER: The 3Oth would be

-- 2 

### MR. LUDWIG: Was the brief date. 3 

### JUDGE YODER: That is the brief 4 date. 5 

### MR. ELLIS: The 30th is the brief 6 date and 7 

### JUDGE YODER: And I don' t know 8 what day of the week that is. 9 

### MR. LUDWIG: Your Honor, that is 10 on September the 30th is a Tuesday. 11 

### JUDGE YODER: Okay. Does that 12 work for you fellows? 13 MR. ELLIS: Okay, so the ability 14 to pay and the penalty level issues would be 15 the same day, the 30th? 16 

### JUDGE YODER: Everythingyou brief 17 would be the same day but we want the 18 information on how the penalty is calculated 19 

### 20 MR. ELLIS: Before the 30th? 21 JUDGE YODER: Yes. And the 22 documents on ability to pay, which means

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### 1 financial submissions. 2 

### MR. LUDWIG: By the 5th? 3 

### JUDGE YODER: By the 5th. 4 

### MR. ELLIS: Okay. 5 

### JUDGE YODER: Does the 30th work? 6 

### MR. ELLIS: We can make it work. 7 

### JUDGE YODER: Okay. I mean if you 8 run into problems on these dates, there is no 9 

### magic to them. I just want to make sure we 10 have got dates and that all the dates

-- 11 

### MR. LUDWIG: The case gets moving 12 forward. 13 JUDGE YODER: are in hand 14 dates. They are not mail dates. They are not 15 placed in the hands of somebody else dates. 16 They are placed in my hands dates. 17 

### MR. LUDWIG: Your Honor, let me 18 ask you just regarding that issue. 19 

### JUDGE YODER: Yes. 20 MR. LUDWIG: These would go to 21 Your Honor at the

-- 22 

### JUDGE YODER: They actually have

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### 1 to go to the main headquarters building. 2 

### MR. LUDWIG: The USDOT Office of 3 Hearings? 4 

### JUDGE YODER: No, they go to the 5 main headquarters and they go to the mail 6 center and then they trot them

-- we are not 7 in the main building anymore. We are at 55 M 8 Street. But we get all of our mail delivered 9 down there because we have to make sure nobody 10 is sending us bombs. 11 MR. LUDWIG: That's crazy, I know. 12 The service

-- well, when you set out your DTC 13 and you signed it and then you had the copy, 14 the original and one copy to myself and then 15 

### Gerald, and then to you. Do we use that 16 address that you put on that? 17 

### JUDGE YODER: I would think so. 18 Let me see what they put. 19 

### MR. LUDWIG: There is a notation 20 21 JUDGE YODER: Yes, I have got a 22 service address. It is Room 12-320, 1200 New

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### 1 Jersey Avenue, Southeast. 2 

### MR. LUDWIG: Yes, sir. 3 

### JUDGE YODER: That is the mail 4 

### center. 5 

### MR. LUDWIG: Okay. I just don't 6 

### want to get caught up on a 

### little 7 technicality. 8 

### JUDGE YODER: Oh, I understand. 9 

### MR. LUDWIG: Because it gets 10 confusing sometimes. 11 

### MR. ELLIS: But you will get that 12 fax, right, Your Honor, if it were faxed to 13 you? 14 

### JUDGE YODER: Yes. Yes, you can 15 email it or fax it but that is not service. 16 I mean that will get it to me and that will 17 satisfy the due date. 18 

### MR. ELLIS: Okay. 19 

### MR. LUDWIG: But the hard copy 20 papergoestothisaddress. Yes, sir, that is 21 no problem. 22 

### JUDGE YODER: But it would be good

NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERSANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLANDAVE., N.W WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-443383 

### 1 to send it 2 

### MR. LUDWIG: Fax and U.S mail. 3 

### JUDGE YODER: by fax or email. 4 

### MR. LUDWIG: Okay, I do not have 5 Your Honor's email. 6 

### JUDGE YODER: It 

### is 7 ronnie.yoder®dot.gov; R-0-N-N-I-Edot Y-0-D-E8 

### R at D-0-T dot G-0-V. 9 

### MR. LUDWIG: Ronnie.yoder®dot.gov, 10 okay. 11 

### JUDGE YODER: It turns out that 12 the address in the service list should be E13 11-310. Sorry about that. 14 

### MR. LUDWIG: Okay, Room E-11-310. 15 

### JUDGE YODER: Yes. 16 

### MR. LUDWIG: Okay, I have changed 17 that. 18 

### JUDGE YODER: All 

### right. And 19 then, let's see, so did we settle on September 20 30? 

### 21 MR. ELLIS: So far, Your Honor. 22 

### JUDGE YODER: Okay and then I was

NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERSANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLANDAVE., NW. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-443384 

### 1 going to give you-- let's see that gives you 2

-- I was thinking of a week or two weeks ' 3 after that for a reply. 4 

### MR. LUDWIG: Two weeks for a reply 5 

### brief? 6 

### JUDGE YODER: Yes. 7 

### MR. LUDWIG: Let me get my 8 calendar here. 9 

### JUDGE YODER: That would be the 10 14th. 11 MR. LUDWIG: That would be a 12 Tuesday, too, of October. 13 

### JUDGE YODER: Yes, 10/14. Okay? 14 MR. LUDWIG: All right. 15 

### JUDGE YODER: All right, anything 16 further? Oh, we will see what those things 17 look like and if need be, we will make 18 rulings. If not, we will set a hearing. And 19 my current inclination is to have the hearing 20 here at a time and place to be fixed. 21 MR. ELLIS: By here you mean D.C.? 22 

### JUDGE YODER: Yes, sir.

NEAL R. GROSS (202) 234·4433 COURT REPORTERS ANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISlANDAVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-443385

1 

### MR. LUDWIG: D.C., 

### not in 2 Jacksonville, Your Honor? 3 

### JUDGE YODER: I don't think so. 4 

### MR. ELLIS: I think we asked for 5 6 

### JUDGE YODER: You asked for 7 Richmond. 8 

### MR. ELLIS:

-- Richmond, right. 9 

### JUDGE YODER: Right. 10 

### MR. LUDWIG: Richmond, Virginia? 11 

### JUDGE YODER: Right. 12 MR. LUDWIG: Okay. 13 

### JUDGE YODER: But in any event, 14 you can assume it will be here, unless 15 something different happens. You can make a 16 submission on that subject, if you want to. 17 

### MR. LUDWIG: Okay. 18 

### JUDGE YODER: Okay. 19 

### MR. ELLIS: Very good, Your Honor. 20 

### JUDGE YODER: Anything further 21 from anybody? 22 MR. ELLIS: Not from the FAA, Your

NEALR. GROSS (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERS ANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISlANDAVE., N.W WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-443386 

### 1 Honor. 2 

### JUDGE YODER: Okay. Well, thank 3 you both very much for participating and we 4 

### will look forward to hearing from you in a 5 

### couple of weeks to see whether this goes 6 

### forward or not. 7 

### MR. LUDWIG: Okay, Judge, thank 8 

### you. 9 

### MR. ELLIS: Just call me next 10 week. I'll be around. 11 

### JUDGE YODER: All right. 12 (Whereupon, the above-entitled 13 matter went off the record at 2:32p.m.) 14 15 16 17 18 19 

### 20 21 22

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Neal R. Grossand Co., Inc. Washington DC Page 96

www.nealrgross.com97 C E R T I F I C A T E

This is to certify that the foregoing transcript

In the matter of: Airline Transport Professionals

Before: DOT/FAA

Date: 08-08-14

Place: teleconference

was duly recorded and accurately transcribed under my direction; further, that said transcript is a true and accurate record of the proceedings.

Court Reporter

NEAL R. GROSS

(202)234-4433 COURT REPORTERSANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323RHODE ISLANDAVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com