UNITED STATES OF AMERICA 

DEPARTMENT OF TRANSPORTATION 

OFFICE OF HEARINGS 

IN THE MATTER OF: 

AIRLINE TRANSPORT 

PROFESSIONALS, INC. 

FDMS No. 

FAA-2011-0288 

FAA-2011-0289 

Respondent 

Friday, 

August 8, 2014 

The teleconference convened, 

pursuant to notice, at 1:00 p.m. 

BEFORE: 

THE HONORABLE RONNIE A. YODER, 

Administrative Law Judge 

RECEIVED 

AUG 1 5 2014 

HEARING DOCKET 

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APPEARANCES: 

On Behalf of the Complainant: 

GERALD A. ELLIS, ESQ. 

Office of the Regional Counsel, 

AS0-7 

Southern Region 

Federal Aviation Administration 

Post Office Box 20636 

Atlanta, Georgia 30230 

(404) 305-5200 

On Behalf of the Respondent: 

JEFFREY R. LUDWIG, ESQ. 

of: Ludwig & Associates, P.A. 

5150 Belfort Road South, 

Building 500 

Jacksonville, Florida 32256 

(904) 281-0145 

Also Present: 

JIM KOZIARSKI, Vice President, Airline 

Transport Professionals, Inc. 

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1 P-R-0-C-E-E-D-I-N-G-S 

2 (1:05 p.m.) 

3 JUDGE YODER: On the record. This 

4 is prehearing conference in Airline Transport 

5 Professionals, Inc., docket numbers FAA-2011-

6 0288 and FAA-2011-0289. 

7 On the phone we have for the 

8 Complainant, Gerald A. Ellis and for the 

9 Respondent, Jeffrey R. Ludwig. Is that 

10 correct? 

11 MR. ELLIS: Yes, Your Honor, 

12 that's correct. 

13 JUDGE YODER: In the absence of 

14 objection, I will determine a five-day 

15 transcript will be necessary and required for 

16 this proceeding. Copies will automatically go 

17 to FAA counsel, to the judge and to the 

18 dockets. 

19 Mr. Ludwig, if you want a copy, 

20 you will need to order that from the reporter 

21 or, at some point, it will show up in the 

22 docket and you can download it from the 

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1 docket. Whether the timing of that is 

2 consistent with what you will be needing to 

3 do, is another question. 

4 You understand what the situation 

5 is? 

6 MR. LUDWIG: Yes, Your Honor. I 

7 just want to make sure that I know the site to 

8 go to. Is it dot.gov? 

9 JUDGE YODER: Yes, dot.gov is --

10 well, dot.regulations -- no, DOT regulations 

11 www.regulations.gov. 

12 MR. LUDWIG: Oh, okay. 

13 JUDGE YODER: And then enter 

14 docket. 

15 MR. ELLIS: Judge Yoder, did you 

16 say the FAA gets a copy automatically? 

17 JUDGE YODER: They always have in 

18 the past. 

19 MR. ELLIS: Okay. 

20 JUDGE YODER: I assume that is the 

21 case. They are included in the order that we 

22 provide -- we make with the reporter. 

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1 MR. ELLIS: Okay. 

2 JUDGE YODER: That has always been 

3 the case, as far as I know. I don't make the 

4 orders myself but that is the way it is done. 

5 All right, the PHC was scheduled 

6 to consider issues relating to both cases. 

7 The first one has to do with consolidation of 

8 the cases. At this point, they have not been 

9 consolidated. We are just holding a joint 

10 prehearing conference, so that we can resolve 

11 them at the same time. 

12 It is my plan to consolidate the 

13 cases for hearing, if we go to hearing, in the 

14 absence of any objection. 

15 MR. LUDWIG: Respondent has no 

16 objection to that, Your Honor. 

17 MR. ELLIS: The FAA has no 

18 objection. 

19 JUDGE YODER: Future filings 

2 0 should be made with both docket numbers on 

21 them. And you send an original and one copy 

22 to the docket and they will then file those 

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1 appropriately. 

2 MR. LUDWIG: Your Honor, would the 

3 style of the case you put on the notice of 

4 prehearing telephonic conference, that would 

5 be appropriate from here on out, then? 

6 JUDGE YODER: Yes. 

7 MR. LUDWIG: Okay, sir. 

8 JUDGE YODER: Okay, thank you. 

9 Now, let 1 s see. I have got a 

10 number of pending motions. The first one has 

11 to do with timeliness of the NPCPs and the 

12 suggestion of Respondent is that they weren 1 t 

13 served within two years of the violations. It 

14 would also contend that they never owned or 

15 operated the aircraft. Are you still 

16 contending that, Mr. Ludwig? 

17 MR. LUDWIG: Well, as to the first 

18 issue, it looks like the original proposed 

19 Notice of Certificate action was issued with 

20 probably a year of when the FAA had knowledge 

21 or had cause to have knowledge. 

22 So, the previous counsel weighs 

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1 that issue. I'm not so sure that that issue 

2 exists. However, the timeliness issue will 

3 concede. However, we do not concede and we 

4 still maintain, Your Honor, that they served 

5 the wrong party because the named respondent, 

6 Airline Transport Professionals, Inc. did not 

7 own the aircraft. In fact, each aircraft --

8 JUDGE YODER: Did they operate the 

9 aircraft? 

10 MR. LUDWIG: No, sir. They just 

11 were dispatching and they were kind of the 

12 facilitator but the operator of the aircraft 

13 were the pilots and the flight instructors. 

14 JUDGE YODER: You understand what 

15 operating an aircraft means. It doesn't mean 

16 flying it around in the air. 

17 MR. LUDWIG: No, sir. I'm very 

18 well aware of operation, operational control, 

19 and those sorts of things. 

20 I think 

21 JUDGE YODER : Excuse me. Your 

22 contention is that Inc. didn't have 

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1 operational control of these aircraft? 

2 MR. LUDWIG: That is exactly what 

3 my client maintains. They facilitated the 

4 dispatching and they contracted for the 

5 maintenance that was done on it but they 

6 didn't own the planes. 

7 JUDGE YODER: I didn't ask whether 

8 they were owned. I said operated. 

9 Your previous counsel seemed to 

10 think that operating meant the pilot. 

11 MR. LUDWIG: Yes, that is exactly 

12 what he maintained. And 

13 JUDGE YODER: Is that what you 

14 maintain? 

15 MR. LUDWIG: Yes. 

16 JUDGE YODER: Oh, you think that 

17 the operator under FAA regulations is the 

18 person who flies the plane? 

19 MR. LUDWIG: I'm looking under the 

20 definitions of Part 1, I think it is 1.1 is 

21 where we were taking that from. An operator 

22 is defined --

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1 JUDGE YODER: You might want to 

2 look at some case law, if you think that the 

3 operator is the person who files the plane. 

4 MR. LUDWIG: We will do that, 

5 Judge. 

6 JUDGE YODER: It might save you 

7 and me and everybody a lot of time, running 

8 down issues that don't exist. 

9 MR. LUDWIG: Operational control 

10 with respect to a flight means the exercise of 

11 authority over initiating, conducting, or 

12 terminating a flight. That is what it says. 

13 JUDGE YODER: What do you suppose 

14 a dispatcher does? 

15 MR. LUDWIG: Well, we are not like 

16 an airline. We are a Part 61 and they just 

17 facilitate 

18 JUDGE YODER: Do they enable the 

19 initiation of the flight? 

20 MR. LUDWIG: No, the instructor 

21 and the person who is getting the training 

22 does. They call him to see what the 

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1 maintenance status is. And then they make the 

2 determination of whether to go or not to go. 

3 In this operation -- and again, 

4 this is a Part 61 school, judge. It is not a 

5 

6 JUDGE YODER: The maintenance 

7 office doesn't tell them whether the plane is 

8 

9 MR. LUDWIG: Getting an inspection 

10 or got a problem with it. Yes, they do. 

11 JUDGE YODER: So they clear it for 

12 flight. 

13 MR. LUDWIG: But the ultimate 

14 decision is still made by the pilot in 

15 command. They let him know whether it is --

16 JUDGE YODER: Let's deal with my 

17 questions first. 

18 MR. LUDWIG: Yes, sir. 

19 JUDGE YODER: They clear it for 

20 flight. Is that correct? 

21 MR. LUDWIG: They advise the pilot 

22 who is going to operate the plane what the 

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1 maintenance status is. 

2 JUDGE YODER: You don't like my 

3 question. 

4 MR. LUDWIG: Well, I don't think 

5 they -- I don't know what you mean clear it 

6 for flight. 

7 JUDGE YODER: They tell the people 

8 that they can take off with that plane --

9 MR. LUDWIG: From a maintenance 

10 standpoint? 

11 JUDGE YODER: -- because it is 

12 okay from a maintenance standpoint. Do they 

13 do that or not? 

14 MR. LUDWIG: Judge, I am going to 

15 have to talk with them some more about that. 

16 JUDGE YODER: You don't know 

17 whether they do that or not? 

18 MR. LUDWIG: My understanding is 

19 that they facilitate and they cause 

20 maintenance to occur but I think the ultimate 

21 decision, whether or not the dispatch is to 

22 the pilot in command of the airplane. 

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1 JUDGE YODER: That, of course, is 

2 not what I asked you, Mr. Ludwig. 

3 Can you tell me this? Can you 

4 tell me whether dispatch is an office is ATP, 

5 Inc.? 

6 MR. LUDWIG: Jim, let me ask you 

7 that. Your Honor, I have my client with me. 

8 JUDGE YODER: Who is that, please? 

9 MR. LUDWIG: Sir, his name is Jim 

10 Koziarski, K-0-Z-I-A-R-S-K-I. 

11 JUDGE YODER: And he is the Vice 

12 President? 

13 MR. LUDWIG: Yes, sir. 

14 JUDGE YODER: Who is the 

15 President? 

16 MR. LUDWIG: Jim, is Dennis? 

17 MR. KOZIARSKI: Derrick Dennis. 

18 MR. LUDWIG: Yes, Derrick Dennis. 

19 JUDGE YODER: Would you spell 

20 that, please? 

21 MR. KOZIARSKI: D-E-R-R-I-C-K, D22 E-N-N-I-S. 

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1 JUDGE YODER: D-E-N-N-I-S? 

2 MR. KOZIARSKI: That is correct. 

3 Yes, sir. 

4 JUDGE YODER: Okay, thank you very 

5 much. 

6 Okay, now, before you go on, Mr. 

7 Koziarski, I want you to understand if you are 

8 going to be making statements, they are going 

9 to be a part of this record. And you, of 

10 course, are not sworn, but any statement that 

11 you make can be used in subsequent proceeding, 

12 can be used for purposes of cross-examination. 

13 It can be used as an addition against 

14 interest. It can be used impeach the witness 

15 at the hearing and it could be the basis for 

16 allegations of false statement before a 

17 federal officer. 

18 I just want you to understand that 

19 when you get involved in the prehearing 

20 conference, you need to understand what the 

21 issues are. Okay? 

22 MR. KOZIARSKI: Yes, sir, I 

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1 understand that. 

2 JUDGE YODER: Okay. Now, if he is 

3 going to be talking to us, we need to be able 

4 to hear him. 

5 MR. LUDWIG: Jim, could you speak 

6 up? We are having a hard time hearing you. 

7 Are you on a speaker phone? 

8 MR. KOZIARSKI: No, it is a 

9 headset. Is that any better? 

10 JUDGE YODER: Well, it's better 

11 than it was. 

12 MR. KOZIARSKI: Hang on one 

13 second. How about that? Is that any better? 

14 JUDGE YODER: No, that's worse. 

15 MR. KOZIARSKI: That's worse. 

16 Okay, let me try and go back the other way. 

17 JUDGE YODER: Now, I don't hear 

18 anything at all. 

19 MR. KOZIARSKI: Okay, how about 

20 that? Is that any better? 

21 JUDGE YODER: Yes, that's better. 

22 Okay, so we had a question pending 

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1 as to whether the maintenance and dispatch 

2 offices are offices of ATP, Inc. 

3 MR. KOZIARSKI: Can you hear me? 

4 JUDGE YODER: Just barely. 

5 MR. KOZIARSKI: I'm sorry. I'm 

6 having a real hard time. 

7 JUDGE YODER: You go ahead. I can 

8 hear. 

9 MR. LUDWIG: Jim, do you 

10 understand the judge's query? 

11 MR. KOZIARSKI: Jeff, I can barely 

12 hear you and I don't know if it is where I am 

13 at. I have poor cell phone coverage. So, I 

14 am having a real hard time hearing anybody. 

15 So, we may have to we will just have to 

16 take it from here. 

17 MR. LUDWIG: Okay, Judge? 

18 JUDGE YODER: Yes. 

19 MR. LUDWIG: My understanding is 

20 they don't have a dispatch office, per se, 

21 like a Part 121. They do have a maintenance 

22 facilitator that when the pilot and student 

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l call in, they tell them whether the aircraft 

2 is up or down and ready for flight. That is 

3 what I know about the operation. 

4 JUDGE YODER: So you are saying 

5 that there is just one office, although they 

6 are referred to as different things in these 

7 documents? 

8 MR. LUDWIG: There are two -- they 

9 have 30 flight training sites and there are 

10 two --

11 JUDGE YODER: Are maintenance and 

12 dispatch separate operations that function for 

13 ATP? 

14 MR. LUDWIG: That is my 

15 understanding, Your Honor. 

16 JUDGE YODER: Are they part of 

17 ATP, Inc.? 

18 MR. LUDWIG: Jim, can you -- you 

19 know, Your Honor, I hate to make a 

20 representation that I can't answer. 

21 JUDGE YODER: Well you can't talk 

22 to your client, any way that you want to, if 

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1 you want to do that. If he talks, he is going 

2 to be on the record. But if you can ask him 

3 and tell us, that's fine. 

4 MR. LUDWIG: Jim, can you hear any 

5 of this? 

6 Judge, he is on vacation out in, I 

7 think, the Rocky Mountains. That is the 

8 problem, I'm afraid. 

9 JUDGE YODER: Aha. Well, it's 

10 nice to be able to take vacations. 

11 MR. LUDWIG: Yes, it is. 

12 JUDGE YODER: But the idea of this 

13 prehearing conference was that we were going 

14 to be able to address all issues in the 

15 proceeding. That is what the notice said. 

16 MR. LUDWIG: Yes, sir. I 

17 understand that and I have done my best with 

18 him. And this case is going on six or seven 

19 years old and all the people with corporate 

20 knowledge about it reside with Jim now, pretty 

21 much. 

22 JUDGE YODER: Yes. Have you 

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1 considered trying to get this case settled? 

2 MR. LUDWIG: Your Honor, I have 

3 tried with a yeoman's effort with Mr. Ellis. 

4 And we tried and then the case, after our last 

5 correspondence about three, three and a half 

6 years ago, it just went dormant and we heard 

7 nothing else from Mr. Ellis' office. 

8 JUDGE YODER: You haven't tried 

9 since you got the prehearing conference 

10 notice? 

11 MR. LUDWIG: I have not talked to 

12 him since I got that. 

13 JUDGE YODER: We'll see --

14 MR. LUDWIG: But that doesn't 

15 mean, Judge, we can' t get it resolved and 

16 believe me, we want to get it resolved. 

17 JUDGE YODER: Yes, well, we will 

18 see by the end of the day, maybe, you will 

19 both feel better about settling. 

20 So, what I am hearing you say is 

21 that there is a dispatch and maintenance 

22 operation and you don't know whether it is 

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1 part of ATP, Inc. or not and it is the same 

2 operation, not two separate operations. And 

3 it is located in each of the places where you 

4 have a facility or is it one central location? 

5 MR. LUDWIG: Your Honor, my 

6 understanding is there is a maintenance 

7 facility that is operated by ATP, Airline 

8 Transport Professionals, Inc. in Jacksonville, 

9 Florida, where we are. There is also one in 

10 Raleigh-Durham. And if the airplanes need 

11 maintenance or scheduled maintenance or 100-

12 hour inspection or any of those sorts of 

13 things, unless they are grounded at another 

14 airport away from these maintenance 

15 facilities, where a maintenance facility has 

16 to be contracted to do the type of maintenance 

17 where an A&P or AI has to do it, then it can't 

18 be done by the pilot in command under I guess, 

19 Part 41 or 43 of the Federal Aviation 

20 Regulations, then it is accomplishedat one of 

21 these two main maintenance sites. 

22 JUDGE YODER: Who decides when 

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1 those things are needed? 

2 MR. LUDWIG: ATP keeps a record of 

3 the flight log and when a 100-hour inspection 

4 needs to be done or routine maintenance. And 

5 then the airplane when, I guess, as it 

6 approaches that, Your Honor, it is then 

7 scheduled to come in for whatever it needs. 

8 JUDGE YODER: So, the ATP decides 

9 when the maintenance occurs. 

10 MR. LUDWIG: Yes, sir. 

11 JUDGE YODER: Whether it needs to 

12 occur. 

13 MR. LUDWIG: Unless there is some 

14 unusual maintenance issue. 

15 JUDGE YODER: Yes, sure. Well, 

16 okay. 

17 MR. LUDWIG: You know a tire goes 

18 flat or a battery goes dead. 

19 JUDGE YODER: Remember that answer 

20 as you think back over the previous questions 

21 we have been asking. 

22 MR. LUDWIG: Yes, sir. 

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1 JUDGE YODER: Let's go back to my 

2 first question and that was the motion to 

3 dismiss because they weren't served within two 

4 years. It is my understanding that you are 

5 abandoning that suggestion. 

6 MR. LUDWIG: My understanding of 

7 the facts are --

8 JUDGE YODER: No, that wasn't my 

9 question. My question was are you abandoning 

10 that assertion? 

11 MR. LUDWIG: Yes. 

12 JUDGE YODER: Okay. So, we don't 

13 have to worry about that one anymore. 

14 MR. LUDWIG: No. 

15 JUDGE YODER: So, the motion to 

16 dismiss is denied or withdrawn. The motion to 

17 strike the timeliness argument, then, is also 

18 moot because that motion is denied or 

19 withdrawn. 

20 Then we have got the next 

21 question, which is one for Mr. Ellis. We 

22 don't want to leave you out of this, Mr. 

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1 Ellis. 

2 MR. ELLIS: Thank you, Judge. 

3 MR. LUDWIG: Well, he's been 

4 having a good time listening to me, I'm sure. 

5 JUDGE YODER: I know. Well, now 

6 you can have fun. 

7 Mr. Ellis, was this complaint 

8 served within 2 0 days after a request for 

9 hearing? 

10 MR. ELLIS: Yes. 

11 JUDGE YODER: And how did you 

12 figure that out? 

13 MR. ELLIS: I believe it was, 

14 let's see, let me look at my documents. Let's 

15 see on --

16 JUDGE YODER: Do you have the 

17 request there in front of you? 

18 MR. ELLIS: the case that was 

19 formerly 0042, which is now --

20 JUDGE YODER: Excuse me. 

21 MR. ELLIS: I have 89. 

22 JUDGE YODER: Excuse me. I have a 

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1 request for a hearing on March 10. Is that 

2 correct? 

3 MR. ELLIS: Request for hearing 

4 was March 

5 MR. LUDWIG: That was by Mr. 

6 Armstrong. 

7 JUDGE YODER: Excuse me? 

8 MR. LUDWIG: Are you referring to 

9 Alan Armstrong's request for a hearing on 

10 March lOth, Judge? 

11 JUDGE YODER: Yes, sir. 

12 MR. LUDWIG: Okay. 

13 MR. ELLIS: March lOth, received 

14 March 17th. 

15 JUDGE YODER: Is there one other 

16 than the March 10 one? 

17 MR. ELLIS: I think they were both 

18 filed March lOth. 

19 JUDGE YODER: That is what the 

20 documents I have would suggest. 

21 MR. ELLIS: And received March 

22 17th. That is correct. 

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1 JUDGE YODER: And if it was filed 

2 on March 10, when was the complaint due? 

3 MR. ELLIS: Twenty days plus five 

4 for mailing. 

5 JUDGE YODER: Is it both sides 

6 were mailed? 

7 MR. ELLIS: Yes. 

8 JUDGE YODER: Okay. All right. 

9 MR. LUDWIG: How did that get 

10 served? That is the mystery. We have no --

11 JUDGE YODER: Service is effected 

12 when mailed under the rules. Where is the 

13 five for mailing on that, Mr. Ellis? 

14 MR. ELLIS: I believe that is in 

15 the rules. Anytime something is served to 

16 your by mail, you get an additional five days. 

17 JUDGE YODER: I thought that was 

18 --okay. 

19 All right, let's move on to the 

20 motion for extension and motion to vacate. 

21 Mr. Ludwig, you understand that under the 

22 rules, if you move for extension and it is not 

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1 granted, it is automatically extended? 

2 MR. LUDWIG: That is my 

3 recollection someplace way back in my brain, 

4 Judge. 

5 JUDGE YODER: Well, that occurred 

6 here. They weren't granted. So, they were 

7 automatically extended until May 21. Jump in 

8 if you have any question about that, Mr. 

9 Ellis, but I think you will find that it was 

10 automatically extended until May 21. 

11 MR. ELLIS: Yes, sir. 

12 JUDGE YODER: And the answers were 

13 filed on May 12. So, the motions to extend, 

14 unless someone has something further to say on 

15 that, are also moot. 

16 And the motion for stay of 

17 proceedings and the motion to strike, the 

18 timeliness argument are moot. So, that takes 

19 care of all of those motions. 

20 MR. LUDWIG: Judge, we filed an 

21 answer-- I filed an answer when Mr. Armstrong 

22 withdrew because it was very confusing 

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1 procedurally at the time. So, out of an 

2 abundance of caution, that is why I filed an 

3 answer. 

4 JUDGE YODER: Yes, it was filed 

5 May 12. And it was prior to May 21. So, as 

6 far as I can see, you are okay. So, we don't 

7 have that issue in the case. 

8 MR. LUDWIG: Okay, I just wanted 

9 to be sure. 

10 JUDGE YODER: So we then get to 

11 the question of who is the real party at 

12 interest in this case. And let me ask Mr. 

13 Ellis. Do the FAA records show that these 

14 planes are owned by ATP Aircraft 3, LLC and 

15 Airline Transport Professionals Corp., USA? 

16 MR. ELLIS: I have records that 

17 show ownership by ATP, LLC. I remember that. 

18 I also have records showing that ATP, which is 

19 the party the FAA filed a complaint against 

20 generally, is an affiliate of all the other 

21 corporations. 

22 JUDGE YODER: And where did that 

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1 record come from? 

2 MR. ELLIS: I show corporate 

3 records to the extent that I could piece 

4 together how these entities are connected. 

5 And it appears there are several different 

6 versions of the corporation, some of which own 

7 airplanes, some of which are located in 

8 different states that they operate together 

9 and introduce themselves as ATP. 

10 JUDGE YODER: When you say they 

11 are affiliates, what do you mean by that? 

12 MR. ELLIS: Well, I looked on one 

13 of their contracts for one place, among 

14 others. And that is what they say. They 

15 operate collectively as ATP but they are 

16 separate corporations under the umbrella. 

17 JUDGE YODER: Can you give us a 

18 specific reference for that? 

19 MR. ELLIS: One reference is the 

20 independent contractor agreement that they 

21 signed with their pilots. I think I probably 

22 attached some other information in 

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1 complainant's motion to strike and motion for 

2 stay. 

3 JUDGE YODER: So, is that a 

4 document that you filed in one of the motions? 

5 MR. ELLIS: The contractor 

6 agreement probably isn't. The other things 

7 that I attached were things I retrieved from 

8 different sources. I can look through those. 

9 JUDGE YODER: Okay, I gather the 

10 reason you didn't send that to me was it 

11 wasn't something that was exchanged between 

12 the parties. 

13 MR. ELLIS: Well, that was a 

14 contract between ATP and one of the witnesses 

15 in our case. 

16 JUDGE YODER: Well, I understand 

17 that. But the order directed that any 

18 documents that have been exchanged and haven't 

19 been provided to the judge should be provided. 

20 MR. ELLIS: Well, these weren't 

21 exchanged between the FAA and ATP. They were 

22 just -- it was a contract between one of our 

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1 witnesses and ATP. 

2 JUDGE YODER: What I just heard 

3 you say is that you intentionally served ATP, 

4 Inc. because --

5 MR. ELLIS: We didn't serve ATP, 

6 Inc. We served ATP. 

7 JUDGE YODER: Oh, okay, ATP 

8 because it is the head name in an affiliation 

9 of entities. 

10 MR. ELLIS: Yes. 

11 JUDGE YODER: Okay. And you did 

12 not serve either of the corporations shown as 

13 owners. Is that correct? 

14 MR. ELLIS: That is correct. 

15 JUDGE YODER: Okay, and the reason 

16 for that was that you understood that what? 

17 MR. ELLIS: The information we 

18 have is that ATP is the primary entity. 

19 JUDGE YODER: I see. Mr. Ludwig 

20 

21 MR. LUDWIG: Your Honor, may I 

22 just --

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1 JUDGE YODER: Do you dispute that, 

2 Mr. Ludwig? 

3 MR. LUDWIG: Well, it is very 

4 curious, Your Honor, because the final notice 

5 of proposed civil penalty was issued to an 

6 entity called Airline Transport Professionals. 

7 JUDGE YODER: Yes. 

8 MR. LUDWIG: And then it got 

9 somehow changed and added Airline Transport 

10 Professionals, Inc. We maintain that there is 

11 no Airline Transport Professionals. There is 

12 an Airline Transport Professionals, Inc., 

13 which is a Georgia corporation. 

14 JUDGE YODER: Do you use the term 

15 ATP in your business? 

16 MR. LUDWIG: The website uses just 

17 a logo, Airline Pilot -- or ATP. It is just 

18 called Airline Transport Professionals. But 

19 the corporate entity is Airline Transport 

20 Professionals, Inc. 

21 JUDGE YODER: Do your business 

22 cards use ATP? 

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1 MR. LUDWIG: Just the three 

2 letters? 

3 JUDGE YODER: No, Airline 

4 Transport Professionals. 

5 MR. LUDWIG: I think it uses 

6 Airline Transport Professionals, Inc., if I 

7 recall correctly. I don't have one of their 

8 business cards in front of me. 

9 MR. ELLIS: Well, I have -- if I 

10 may, Your Honor? 

11 JUDGE YODER: Yes. 

12 MR. ELLIS: The attachment to the 

13 Complainant's motion to Strike and the motion 

14 for stay, Exhibit 5, lists of the cards that 

15 they use, at least for the individuals who 

16 came to our informal. 

17 JUDGE YODER: What page is that? 

18 MR. ELLIS: Government Exhibit 5. 

19 JUDGE YODER: Do you have a page 

20 number? 

21 MR. ELLIS: Sorry, I don't have a 

22 page number. 

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1 JUDGE YODER: Let me find it then. 

2 MR. LUDWIG: Gerald, this is on 

3 Complainant's motion to strike respondent's 

4 timeliness argument or which one? 

5 MR. ELLIS: Yes. 

6 MR. LUDWIG: Let me see what I 

7 have got there. 

8 MR. ELLIS: And there are several 

9 other documents attached to prove that point, 

10 Your Honor. 

11 MR. LUDWIG: Hold on just a 

12 second. Let me get down to your exhibit here. 

13 JUDGE YODER: Well, he's not 

14 saying exhibit. I am looking at maintenance 

15 logs. Do you know the maintenance logs, Mr. 

16 Ludwig? 

17 MR. LUDWIG: Yes, I am aware of 

18 the maintenance logs. 

19 JUDGE YODER: Do you know the ones 

20 in that exhibit? 

21 MR. LUDWIG: I am looking at the 

22 Government's exhibit. Well, I am down to 

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1 four. 

2 JUDGE YODER: I don't know what 

3 exhibit this is. I have it as page 15, page 

4 16 or --

5 MR. LUDWIG: Yes, I am seeing. It 

6 is Exhibit 5. 

7 JUDGE YODER: Okay. 

8 MR. LUDWIG: The five cards. 

9 JUDGE YODER: It says ATP 

10 maintenance log, Airline Transport 

11 Professionals, no Inc. Do you see those 

12 documents? 

13 It also has I don't know what this 

14 document is, it is the most respected in pilot 

15 certification, ATP, Airline Transport 

16 Professionals. No Inc. 

17 Airline career pilot program, 338 

18 ATP graduates hired by airlines in the last 12 

19 months. 

20 MR. LUDWIG: I think that is 

21 probably off the website. 

22 JUDGE YODER: Okay. Yes, and on 

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1 page 24 of 31, exhibit 5 shows five business 

2 cards, --

3 MR. LUDWIG: Yes, sir, I have got 

4 that one. 

5 JUDGE YODER: -- all of which show 

6 ATP, Airline Transport Professionals. 

7 MR. LUDWIG: Yes, sir. I agree. 

8 No, sir, I absolutely agree. 

9 JUDGE YODER: Okay, would you be 

10 surprised that someone might suggest that Inc. 

11 was doing business as ATP? 

12 MR. LUDWIG: Well, in their final 

13 Notice of Proposed Civil Penalty, Mr. Ellis 

14 addresses this to Airline Transport 

15 Professionals, Inc., the one dated February 

16 25, 2001. 

17 JUDGE YODER: Yes, well, that 

18 shouldn't surprise you. That was the name. 

19 MR. LUDWIG: No, sir, that doesn't 

20 surprise me at all. And then the --

21 JUDGE YODER: If you look at page 

22 32 of 64 in that document, a letter to Mr. 

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1 Slaughter from Mr. Koziarski dated October 24, 

2 2008. Do you see that letter? 

3 MR. LUDWIG: No, sir. I can't put 

4 my finger on it. There are so many documents 

5 in here. 

6 JUDGE YODER: It is numbered 32 of 

7 64. 

8 MR. LUDWIG: Is it under an 

9 exhibit, a Government exhibit number? 

10 JUDGE YODER: Well, it is in the 

11 motion, in fact in your response to the motion 

12 to strike. It is your document. And it is, 

13 I have got a penciled page number 20 and I 

14 have got a typed in page 32 of 64. 

15 MR. LUDWIG: I'm sure I can find 

16 it eventually. I'm sorry, what is the 

17 question, Your Honor? 

18 JUDGE YODER: Well, that document 

19 is on stationary which says ATP, Airline 

20 Transport Professionals. 

21 MR. LUDWIG: Yes and it does not 

22 have Inc. on it. 

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1 JUDGE YODER: It does not have 

2 Inc. 

3 MR. LUDWIG: Yes, sir. 

4 JUDGE YODER: And it says we are 

5 confident -- quote: We are confident our 

6 maintenance procedures provide for a safe and 

7 airworthy fleet, and that they are fully 

8 compliant with the FAA requirements for a Part 

9 61 flight school. Period, closed quote. 

10 MR. LUDWIG: Yes, sir. 

11 JUDGE YODER: Signed Jim 

12 Koziarski. 

13 MR. LUDWIG: Okay. 

14 JUDGE YODER: No Inc. And that 

15 is, I think, not the only document in here 

16 supplied by Respondent, which uses the name 

17 that way. 

18 Let me -- Mr. Ellis, do you have 

19 the leases that are referred to with respect 

20 to these claims? 

21 MR. ELLIS: I have a blue ribbon 

22 file and I do have at least one of those 

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1 leases. 

2 JUDGE YODER: They were provided 

3 to you by Respondent. 

4 MR. ELLIS: No, I either got them 

5 through Oak City or through some other means. 

6 JUDGE YODER: Oh, all right. 

7 MR. LUDWIG: I am not sure that I 

8 have seen those, Gerald. 

9 JUDGE YODER: Okay. 

10 MR. ELLIS: Yes, we haven't 

11 exchanged discovery. 

12 JUDGE YODER: I hope you will keep 

13 records of these documents that we mentioned. 

14 That is the second group that we have 

15 mentioned. The first one was the document you 

16 had that showed ATP as the operator. 

17 MR. LUDWIG: Your Honor, may I 

18 just kind of suggest that maybe Mr. Ellis, who 

19 seems to have more documents than we do, maybe 

20 provide us with a Bates stamped copy so that 

21 if we get to trial on this, we can all be 

22 playing off of a numbered --

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1 JUDGE YODER: Yes. Well, I want 

2 somebody to provide these to me. It doesn't 

3 make too much difference. I will let you 

4 folks figure out who does it. I just want it 

5 done. 

6 MR. LUDWIG: Yes, sir. 

7 JUDGE YODER: And I want it done 

8 within a certain period of time after we 

9 finish today. 

10 MR. ELLIS: Normally, we exchange 

11 documents when the parties agree to discovery. 

12 JUDGE YODER: Normally we exchange 

13 documents when I tell people to. 

14 MR. ELLIS: Of course. 

15 JUDGE YODER: Okay? 

16 MR. ELLIS: I'm just saying that 

17 is the reason we didn't exchange with 

18 Respondent. 

19 JUDGE YODER: Yes, I understand 

20 that. 

21 Okay, so anyway, those are two 

22 different documents that will need to be 

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1 included in that group. And if Mr. Ellis has 

2 them, that is fine, he can provide them. But 

3 I'm not sure that he has the leases. It would 

4 seem to me that the leases should be provided 

5 by ATP, if you don't mind my calling the 

6 Respondent ATP. 

7 MR. LUDWIG: No, sir. I think 

8 that is a lot easier. And just so we are 

9 clear on the record, which leases are your --

10 is Your Honor specifically --

11 JUDGE YODER: The ones that are 

12 referred to with respect to the two planes at 

13 issue here. 

14 MR. LUDWIG: Okay. 

15 JUDGE YODER: Okay? 

16 MR. LUDWIG: And those would be 

17 leases between let's call it ATP and the 

18 owner? 

19 JUDGE YODER: Well, --

20 MR. LUDWIG: I don't know if they 

21 exist but if they do, we can find out. 

22 JUDGE YODER: Well, it would be 

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1 good for you if they did exist, since you have 

2 said they were leased. 

3 MR. LUDWIG: Well, they were 

4 leased, by virtue of my understanding of an 

5 oral agreement between the parties. 

6 JUDGE YODER: Oh, so these are 

7 oral leases? 

8 MR. LUDWIG: That is what I have 

9 been told by my client, Your Honor. 

10 JUDGE YODER: Do you have records 

11 of payment under those leases? 

12 MR. LUDWIG: I can't answer that. 

13 I will have to find out but I will. 

14 JUDGE YODER: You understand if 

15 this goes to trial, you are going to wind up 

16 with a full-scale examination of the financial 

17 interrelationships of all these corporations 

18 and this is just going to be one part of that. 

19 Because the issue here is going to be who is 

20 operating these planes and who is actually 

21 running the operation? You might as well get 

22 ready for that. 

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1 The information I had was that 

2 N575AT was owned by ATP Aircraft --

3 MR. LUDWIG: ATP Aircraft 3 LLC, a 

4 Delaware Corporation. Yes, sir. 

5 JUDGE YODER: Have you got a 

6 certificate of ownership with respect to that? 

7 MR. LUDWIG: Yes. In fact, on the 

8 inspector's i terns of proof, when they sent it 

9 to counsel, they printed out their internal 

10 document they hold showing that N575AT was 

11 registered to ATP Aircraft 3, LLC. 

12 JUDGE YODER : Right and it was 

13 leased to ATP USA, Inc. 

14 MR. LUDWIG: Yes. 

15 JUDGE YODER: And the other one 

16 was also leased to ATP. 

17 MR. LUDWIG: Yes, and that was on 

18 owned by Airline Transport Professionals Corp 

19 USA, a Delaware Corporation. 

20 JUDGE YODER: Oh, corp? 

21 MR. LUDWIG: Corp USA. Corp USA. 

22 JUDGE YODER: Corp USA? 

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1 MR. LUDWIG: Yes, and that is a 

2 completely separate corporation, Airline 

3 Transport Professionals Corp USA, a Delaware 

4 Corp. 

5 JUDGE YODER: Do you know who owns 

6 these corporations? 

7 MR. LUDWIG: I think various 

8 people do. You know they get people to buy 

9 them and they lease them. There is a now 

10 

11 JUDGE YODER: They get people to 

12 buy them. Who is they? 

13 MR. LUDWIG: I guess the operators 

14 of what is called ATP. 

15 JUDGE YODER: Who are the 

16 operators of ATP? 

17 MR. LUDWIG: I guess it would be 

18 the shareholders and I don't know who those 

19 are. 

20 JUDGE YODER: Okay, you will. You 

21 didn't consider that to be a fact at issue. 

22 MR. LUDWIG: Who the owners are? 

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1 JUDGE YODER: Yes, sir. 

2 MR. LUDWIG: It certainly could 

3 be. 

4 JUDGE YODER: Yes, that is why we 

5 have the prehearing conference, to find out 

6 what that information was. Do you understand 

7 what I am saying? 

8 MR. LUDWIG: Yes. 

9 JUDGE YODER: Okay. 

10 MR. LUDWIG: Now 304BK, Your 

11 Honor, I mean that airplane has been retired 

12 from service. 

13 JUDGE YODER: That needn 1 t trouble 

14 us. What we are concerned about was what was 

15 the situation when it was flying. 

16 MR. LUDWIG: Right. 

17 JUDGE YODER: Okay. Mr. Koziarski 

18 submitted an affidavit in support one of your 

19 motions. Are you familiar with that? 

20 MR. LUDWIG: I recall seeing that. 

21 That is one Mr. Armstrong filed, certainly. 

22 It was attached to was it complainant 1 s motion 

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1 to strike? No, that was -- I'm sorry. No, 

2 no, no. 

3 JUDGE YODER: Here it is. It is 

4 page 11 of 64 in your response to 

5 Complainant's motion to strike. 

6 Do you have that? 

7 MR. LUDWIG: I'm digging for it, 

8 Your Honor. 

9 JUDGE YODER: Well, it is dated 

10 March 24, 2001. 

11 MR. LUDWIG: Okay. 

12 JUDGE YODER: Can you or he tell 

13 me what he meant when he said as it relates to 

14 Government Exhibit 1 Airline Transport 

15 Professionals is not an entity? 

16 MR. LUDWIG: That's right. I 

17 think what he meant to say was Airline 

18 Transport Professionals, Inc. is the legal 

19 entity. 

20 JUDGE YODER: And is it your 

21 understanding that that means that Airline 

22 Transport Professionals is not an entity? 

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1 MR. LUDWIG: I am not aware of any 

2 fictitious name being filed on its behalf but 

3 they certainly do business under that moniker. 

4 There is no doubt about that, Judge. 

5 JUDGE YODER: Well, that is what I 

6 would have thought. That is why I wondered 

7 how someone could swear that it is not an 

8 entity. If it is doing business in ten states 

9 under that name. 

10 Well, anyway, that is something 

11 that is going to need to be explained if this 

12 case goes on. 

13 MR. LUDWIG: Okay. 

14 JUDGE YODER: All right. Let's 

15 see what else we have got here. That name 

16 winds up getting used in virtually all the 

17 communications back and forth between FAA and 

18 Mr. Koziarski. 

19 MR. LUDWIG: ATP. 

20 JUDGE YODER: Yes, that is what I 

21 meant. 

22 October 24, 2008, Mr. Koziarski 

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1 wrote back to Mr. Slaughter and said please 

2 indicate the party or parties whom ATP 

3 reportedly offered an unworthy aircraft. 

4 Then there is a note of an October 

5 27, 2008 conversation between Mr. Slaughter 

6 and Mr. Koziarski in which reference to ATP 

7 was made numerous times, which is not 

8 surprising because that is how this operation 

9 did business. Isn't it? 

10 MR. LUDWIG: That is the way they 

11 did their business and that is their trade 

12 name, certainly. That is the way they are 

13 known. Nobody is going to dispute that, Your 

14 Honor. 

15 JUDGE YODER: Well, the affidavit 

16 says there is no such entity. 

17 MR. LUDWIG: Well you know I think 

18 from a legal standpoint an entity is either a 

19 corporation, an LLC, or something that has 

2 0 been filed as a fictitious name. And perhaps 

21 that is what he was looking at from a purely 

22 technical standpoint. I didn't prepare the 

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1 affidavit. 

2 JUDGE YODER: Yes, I know you 

3 didn't. 

4 Okay, let me just move on. Of 

5 course the Notice of Proposed Civil Penalty 

6 referred to ATP, Airline Transport 

7 Professionals. Right? 

8 MR. LUDWIG: That is correct. And 

9 then through the course of it looks like the 

10 documents, it went over to Airline Transport 

11 Professionals, Inc., which is, I think, 

12 technically legally the correct entity. 

13 JUDGE YODER: Yes, well that may 

14 be true but in the response to the NCP, Mr. 

15 Armstrong stated that he represents Airline 

16 Transport Professionals, Inc. , paren ATP. And 

17 then he asks for a hearing in the name of 

18 Airline Transport Professionals. Did you know 

19 that? 

20 MR. LUDWIG: No but I do see that 

21 it changes back and forth and there is some 

22 confusion about whether --

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1 JUDGE YODER: I don't know about 

2 confusion. I think the documents I have seen 

3 would suggest that the names were used 

4 interchangeably. 

5 MR. LUDWIG: I agree. 

6 JUDGE YODER: That makes it kind 

7 of hard to make a technical argument that 

8 somebody used one instead of the other. Do 

9 you understand what I am saying? 

10 MR. LUDWIG: I understand. 

11 JUDGE YODER: All right. You 

12 might -- let's see. 

13 MR. LUDWIG: The only thing I 

14 don't quite understand is, although for the 

15 purposes of this hearing today whether it is 

16 Airline Transport Professionals, Inc. or 

17 Airline Transport Professionals, we are 

18 talking about the same entity but the final 

19 Notice of Proposed Civil Penalty was issued to 

20 Airline Transport Professionals, Inc. 

21 JUDGE YODER: Okay. 

22 MR. LUDWIG: The original Notice 

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1 of Proposed Civil Penalty was issued to the 

2 President of you know. But the legal 

3 document that is before this Court --

4 JUDGE YODER: The question is 

5 whether you propose to try this case on the 

6 basis of defending the position of your client 

7 that based on the difference between Airline 

8 Transport Professionals and Airline Transport 

9 Professionals, Inc. when the names are used 

10 interchangeably. 

11 MR. LUDWIG: No, Your Honor, I do 

12 not intend to keep marshaling that defense. 

13 However, of course, we do adamantly maintain 

14 the defense about whether or not the aircraft 

15 was in airworthy condition, which is what this 

16 is all about. 

17 JUDGE YODER: Well, that is one of 

18 the aircraft. 

19 MR. LUDWIG: Well, both. 

20 MR. ELLIS: No, it is not. 

21 JUDGE YODER: Actually, it was 

22 both but as of the final notice, it became --

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1 as of the complaint, it became one. The 

2 unairworthiness assertion dropped out for 

3 whatever reason. 

4 MR. LUDWIG: And it went over to a 

5 paperwork log book entry issue. 

6 JUDGE YODER: I can tell you. 

7 MR. LUDWIG: The one -- hello? 

8 JUDGE YODER: Yes, I'm here. Did 

9 we lose anybody? 

10 MR. ELLIS: No, I'm still here. 

11 JUDGE YODER: Is the reporter 

12 there? 

13 COURT REPORTER: Yes, the reporter 

14 is here. 

15 MR. LUDWIG: Okay, I'm here. 

16 JUDGE YODER: That's scary. All 

17 right. 

18 Let's just look here at 304BK --

19 MR. LUDWIG: That's the one about 

20 the radio. 

21 JUDGE YODER: Right. And that is 

22 the one that the airworthiness dropped out of. 

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1 MR. LUDWIG: That's correct. 

2 JUDGE YODER: And the other one, 

3 there are three complaints left three 

4 counts left with respect to that claim. And 

5 with respect to the other claim, there are two 

6 counts and one of those is the airworthiness 

7 one, relating to the fuel pump. Is that on 

8 the MEL, Mr. Ellis? 

9 MR. ELLIS: I can't say. I 

10 haven't looked at that particular issue. 

11 JUDGE YODER: Well, presumably it 

12 is alleged to be unairworthy because the fuel 

13 pump wasn't operative. Is that right? 

14 MR. ELLIS: Correct. 

15 MR. LUDWIG: Yes, that is 

16 paragraph number two, he says the right fuel 

17 pump was inoperative. 

18 JUDGE YODER: Right, yes. 

19 MR. LUDWIG: And we say no, it 

20 wasn't. It was operative. 

21 JUDGE YODER: You say it wasn't 

22 inoperative? 

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1 MR. LUDWIG: Yes, sir. We 

2 maintain that fuel pump was operative. It was 

3 a new type fuel pump and the pilot who 

4 complained about it didn't know that Piper had 

5 issued a service bulletin saying that these 

6 pumps don't make noise anymore, click, click, 

7 click. So that when you turned it on like in 

8 an old Piper, they put a new style fuel pump 

9 ln that doesn't make noise. 

10 JUDGE YODER: Okay. 

11 MR. LUDWIG: So, that is 

12 JUDGE YODER: Have you heard that 

13 before, Mr. Ellis? 

14 MR. ELLIS: No. 

15 JUDGE YODER: Okay. Well, that is 

16 something you guys might want to talk about. 

17 It strikes me as pretty silly to have a 

18 hearing if, in fact, you fellows aren't 

19 communicating about how the pump works. 

20 MR. ELLIS: Now, I'm pretty sure 

21 -- and I guess I shouldn't say anymore. But 

22 I will reserve that statement. 

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1 JUDGE YODER: That complaint was 

2 based on an inspector's report, was it not, 

3 Mr. Ellis? 

4 MR. ELLIS: Yes, I believe there 

5 would have been some maintenance records along 

6 with it. 

7 JUDGE YODER: So, Mr. Ludwig, are 

8 you contending that the inspectors weren't up 

9 to speed on what these things were supposed to 

10 sound like? 

11 MR. LUDWIG: That is what we 

12 maintain because when we had a couple of 

13 complaints, they checked to make sure that the 

14 pump was operational. In fact, they replaced 

15 a good pump with another good pump and the new 

16 pumps don't make any noise. I mean, it gets 

17 fuel pressure. 

18 JUDGE YODER: Oh, you did replace 

19 the pump? 

20 MR. LUDWIG: Twice. I mean the 

21 first time they replaced it and then they were 

22 complaining it wasn't pumping. Well, they 

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1 couldn't hear it 1 ike they were used to. And 

2 then they put a second one in there and it 

3 doesn't make any noise either. That's because 

4 there wasn't anything the matter with it. 

5 JUDGE YODER: Okay, but the first 

6 one that you mentioned is the one that they 

7 are referring to September 23? 

8 MR. LUDWIG: I believe so, Your 

9 Honor. In fact, it strikes me that at some 

10 point in time Mr. Ellis or his office was 

11 supplied with a copy of the Piper service 

12 bulletin on that. 

13 JUDGE YODER: Okay, well, I will 

14 let you gentlemen get together. 

15 MR. LUDWIG: Yes. I mean, that is 

16 something between us. 

17 JUDGE YODER: Let me see here. 

18 There is an October 27, 2008 telephone call 

19 with Mr. Koziarski and Mr. Slaughter 

20 reportedly asked him how a pilot documents a 

21 discrepancy on an ATP aircraft and wrote: He 

22 informed me that they are to call maintenance. 

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1 Again, that is ATP maintenance. Is that 

2 right? 

3 MR. LUDWIG: Yes, sir. There is 

4 an 800 number they call, I think. 

5 JUDGE YODER: Then asked how a 

6 different pilot would know that the aircraft 

7 had a discrepancy and he stated that all 

8 pilots must call dispatch, and again, that is 

9 ATP dispatch. Is that right? 

10 MR. LUDWIG: Yes, sir. 

11 JUDGE YODER: It would tell them 

12 if the aircraft is airworthy or not. 

13 Do you disagree with that? 

14 MR. LUDWIG: That is what the 

15 inspector was writing down. I don't know --

16 I wasn't there when the conversation took 

17 place but it says what it says. 

18 JUDGE YODER: That is the way the 

19 maintenance operation works. 

20 MR. LUDWIG: Right, they call in 

21 on a number, like I said. 

22 JUDGE YODER : And they tell the 

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1 caller whether the plane is airworthy or not. 

2 Right? 

3 MR. LUDWIG: I guess if it is 

4 available for dispatch and it is not in 

5 maintenance of some sort, that is what they 

6 tell. But again, I would have to discuss --

7 JUDGE YODER: I am asking you 

8 about what he purportedly said. So, you might 

9 want to figure out how that is actually done. 

10 I asked how did the information 

11 get relayed to dispatch from maintenance and 

12 he stated electronically. 

13 MR. LUDWIG: I guess in an email. 

14 JUDGE YODER: That would suggest 

15 that maintenance and dispatch are not the same 

16 offices. 

17 MR. LUDWIG: I don't think they 

18 are physically in the same place, Your Honor. 

19 JUDGE YODER: Okay. Well, that 

20 would suggest they aren't in the same offices, 

21 wou1dn' t it? 

22 MR. LUDWIG: Sure. 

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1 JUDGE YODER: That was one of the 

2 questions we had earlier. 

3 Then we have got Mr. Armstrong's 

4 letter. And it says that in summary, as best 

5 as I can tell from the information provided to 

6 me, the FAA is pursuing the wrong person. It 

7 should be going after the pilot in command of 

8 the flight, assuming without conceding that 

9 the aircraft was in any way unairworthy. And 

10 that hearkens back to your earlier suggestion 

11 that it is the pilot who is in command who 

12 makes the determination as to whether the 

13 aircraft is airworthy. 

14 MR. LUDWIG: Ultimately, he is the 

15 one to make that determination before he goes. 

16 Yes, sir, that is pretty fundamental. 

17 JUDGE YODER: The question is 

18 whether he is the only one that makes that 

19 determination, not whether ultimately he is 

20 the final one who makes it. 

21 MR. LUDWIG: I think his 

22 discussions, if he has one with dispatch, is 

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1 part of his decision. Whether the aircraft is 

2 airworthy or not, he may dispatch and they say 

3 it is airworthy and he goes up and does a run 

4 up and the mag is bad all of a sudden, then it 

5 is up to the pilot in command not to continue 

6 with the flight until the problem is 

7 rectified. 

8 JUDGE YODER: Okay, then we have 

9 got a bunch of communication recordings in 

10 here suggesting that Mr. Koziarski was telling 

11 people not to ground the aircraft. 

12 September 18, 2008, Mr. Slaughter 

13 noted that Todd, I gather that is Kallenbach, 

14 stated that he is always pressured from 

15 dispatch and the VP, that is Mr. Koziarski, 

16 did not ground the aircraft. 

17 MR. LUDWIG: Though we absolutely 

18 that Mr. Koziarski was telling people to 

19 dispatch an unsafe aircraft. 

20 JUDGE YODER: Let me ask the other 

21 question, though. Who is Todd? Who was 

22 Kallenbach? He was the site manager, 

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1 according to September 12, 2008. 

2 MR. LUDWIG: He is no longer with 

3 ATP, as I understand it. 

4 JUDGE YODER: I understand but he 

5 was, at that point, a site manager. 

6 MR. LUDWIG: He was a pilot. 

7 Whatever they mean by the flight manager, I am 

8 not quite sure. 

9 JUDGE YODER: Right. In that 

10 September 12, 2008 memo, it refers to an 

11 anonymous complaint but it identifies Todd as 

12 the site manager. 

13 And then it says Todd stated that 

14 he is always pressured from dispatch to not 

15 ground the aircraft. That would suggest that, 

16 whether you accept this as true or not, it 

17 would suggest that Todd, the site manager, is 

18 the one who grounds aircraft. 

19 MR. LUDWIG: That is what it would 

20 suggest. And like I said, these operations 

21 are independent and, ultimately, through 

22 whether you call it dispatch or you call it 

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1 the chief pilot who is in that particular 

2 location, it is a collective decision that I 

3 believe is used by the person who checks out 

4 the airplane, whether or not the airplane is 

5 airworthy or not. 

6 JUDGE YODER: Do you know what a 

7 site manager does? 

8 MR. LUDWIG: Well, I don't know 

9 where that term came up. They had what they 

10 call chief pilots but I am not aware of 

11 anybody by the name of a site manager. That 

12 is something that that inspector used, Your 

13 Honor. 

14 JUDGE YODER: I see. Okay, well, 

15 we will want to know if there is such a thing. 

16 MR. LUDWIG: Are you looking at 

17 the IOPs on the --

18 JUDGE YODER: No, I am just 

19 looking at my prep for this. 

20 MR. LUDWIG: Okay. 

21 JUDGE YODER: And it has a series 

22 of questions and you are probably not going to 

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1 be able to answer them at this point but I 

2 want them answered before we go to hearing. 

3 I want the legal relationship between these 

4 four companies. I want to know whether they 

5 are separately owned and operated with 

6 separate corporate formalities observed. I 

7 want to know whether they share executives or 

8 personnel at that time, whether they share 

9 investors. Are they held out to the public as 

10 a single entity with ATP? 

11 MR. LUDWIG: And just to be 

12 absolutely clear, I think I am clear what you 

13 want. 

14 JUDGE YODER: Yes. 

15 MR. LUDWIG: Airline Transport 

16 Professionals, Inc. and then the two separate 

17 entities that own the, the two separate corps 

18 that own 

19 JUDGE YODER: Aircraft 3 and ATP 

20 Corp and ATP USA. Those are the four. 

21 MR. LUDWIG: Okay. 

22 JUDGE YODER: Yes. Do we know who 

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1 employed Daniel Stern, a flight instructor of 

2 575AT on September 23, 2008? 

3 MR. LUDWIG: I don't know but I am 

4 sure we can find out, Your Honor. 

5 JUDGE YODER: And who employed the 

6 instructor on the other plane on the date in 

7 question? 

8 MR. LUDWIG: So basically, who 

9 employed the flight instructors? 

10 JUDGE YODER: Excuse me? 

11 MR. LUDWIG: Basically, you want 

12 to know who employed the flight instructors. 

13 JUDGE YODER: Yes. Right, 

14 exactly. 

15 MR. LUDWIG: Yes, sir. 

16 JUDGE YODER: And as you look up 

17 that information, you might have a look at a 

18 couple of cases. One of them, I decided in 

19 2004. It was CVS Corp. 2004-WL-419873. That 

20 was an FAA case. 

21 MR. LUDWIG: 204-WL-419783? 

22 JUDGE YODER: No, 873. 

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1 MR. LUDWIG: Okay, let me read 

2 that back to you 419873. 

3 JUDGE YODER: That's right. And 

4 that was an FAA case but not a case where the 

5 issue of who was an operator was involved. 

6 But it was a case where Respondents were held 

7 responsible, in spite of separate corporations 

8 being suggested as involved. 

9 Then there was Fincher v. 

10 Williamson Transport Co. That is 2006-WL11 728813. That is Judge Goodwin. Again, not an 

12 aviation case but one having to do with 

13 distinctive --

14 MR. LUDWIG: Entities. 

15 JUDGE YODER: Yes, right. You can 

16 compare that one to Air Solutions, LLC and Air 

17 Solutions Group, Inc. , which was a Judge 

18 Benkin case in 2006, WL-3851155. That was an 

19 FAA case. But he concluded there were 

20 separate officers, stockholders, business, 

21 quoters, everything was really separate. 

22 Okay and you will be briefing this 

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1 before we go to hearing. So, what we are 

2 going to want to know is what your position is 

3 on this question of separate entities. 

4 It would be nice if we could 

5 resolve this on the basis of pumps not making 

6 noise. But if it isn't resolved, it is going 

7 to get complicated. 

8 All right. All right, so then we 

9 wind up with two violations for 575AT and that 

10 is the right fuel pump and failing to repair 

11 it. Anditwasn'tairworthy. So, ifthefuel 

12 pump was okay, then you have solved both of 

13 those questions. If it wasn't okay, you have 

14 probably lost on both of them. 

15 So, you see where the issue is 

16 there. And they proposed civil penalty there 

17 as $37,500. The other one, there had been 

18 five violations but you wound up with three. 

19 And those are a radio or two that didn't 

20 operate, allegedly. 

21 MR. LUDWIG: One radio. 

22 JUDGE YODER: Was it just one? 

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1 Because their reference is to two. 

2 MR. LUDWIG: There reference is to 

3 two but it really only involves one radio and 

4 the airplane --

5 JUDGE YODER: Do you agree with 

6 that, Mr. Ellis? 

7 MR. LUDWIG: has two radios. 

8 MR. ELLIS: I know the issue 

9 involved two radios and I think one was 

10 inoperative. I think that was the case. 

11 JUDGE YODER: So, is the 

12 allegation that one was inoperative? 

13 MR. ELLIS: I think the allegation 

14 was involving the documentation of the issue 

15 and operating without documenting the issue 

16 properly. 

17 JUDGE YODER: I got that. The 

18 question was are we talking about one or two 

19 radios? 

20 MR. ELLIS: Well, generally, there 

21 are two radios at issue. 

22 JUDGE YODER: In this case? 

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1 MR. ELLIS: In the case. 

2 JUDGE YODER: Okay because I just 

3 

4 MR. LUDWIG: That is not what it 

5 says. 

6 MR. ELLIS: Yes, I mean I think we 

7 agree on what the issue is. I am just saying 

8 generally I can't say there aren't two radios 

9 involved in the case. We are not saying two 

10 radios were inoperative. 

11 JUDGE YODER: You guys can sort 

12 that out. Are we talking about two allegedly 

13 bad radios or one? 

14 And then with respect to the 

15 maintenance record, help me with the 

16 difference between these two allegations. One 

17 has to do with operating an aircraft without 

18 the maintenance record having been made --

19 entry. The other one has to do with making 

20 sure that there is an appropriate entry before 

21 it is returned to service. Are you asserting 

22 that as two different violations? 

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1 MR. ELLIS: 91.4 05 (a) , the failure 

2 to perform maintenance without correcting the 

3 discrepancy. 91.405 (b) is the failure to make 

4 a proper entry into the maintenance log. 

5 JUDGE YODER: Yes, but then you 

6 also have 407 (a) (2). 

7 MR. ELLIS: That is for operation 

8 of an aircraft without required maintenance 

9 entry, an operational violation. 

10 JUDGE YODER: Okay. So, those are 

11 three violations? 

12 MR. ELLIS: Yes, sir. 

13 JUDGE YODER: Okay. And so that 

14 

15 MR. LUDWIG: But Your Honor, the 

16 problem here is is paragraph two. Is it one 

17 and/or two? Is it for each one? So, when he 

18 says one and/or number two communication 

19 radios were inoperative. There was only one. 

20 JUDGE YODER: Well, that is why I 

21 am suggesting you both get together and talk 

22 about whether we are talking about one radio 

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1 or two radios. 

2 And that will come up in 

3 connection with my next question, too. The 

4 civil penalty sought here is $68,749. And we 

5 don't have any indication of how those were 

6 computed. Mr. Ellis, you are going to have to 

7 provide that for us. 

8 MR. ELLIS: Hold on a second, 

9 Judge. 

10 MR. LUDWIG: Wait a minute. It's 

11 $32,000, Your Honor. 

12 MR. ELLIS: Yes, I don't think 

13 that was 

14 JUDGE YODER: Oh, I'm sorry, 

15 $32,000. Excuse me. It started out as 

16 $68,749. Pardon me. 

17 MR. ELLIS: Right. 

18 JUDGE YODER: All right it is 

19 $32,000 for three violations and let's see, 

20 the other one was 

21 MR. LUDWIG: $37,500. 

22 JUDGE YODER: -- $37,000 for two 

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1 violations. 

2 MR. LUDWIG: $37,500. 

3 JUDGE YODER: Right. Can you help 

4 me understand why, Mr. Ellis? 

5 MR. ELLIS: Yes, Your Honor. We 

6 are prepared to do that. 

7 JUDGE YODER: Well, can you help 

8 me understand it now? 

9 MR. ELLIS: Okay. For 91.405(a), 

10 let 1 s see, let 1 s go to the beginning. Of 

11 course the only issues that we have some 

12 conflict with is whether this company is a 

13 large business or not. So, we considered it 

14 to be a large business. And using that, 

15 JUDGE YODER: What is the dollar 

16 figure there, Mr. Ellis? 

17 MR. ELLIS : Well, there is a range 

18 from $2,200 at the minimum to $25,000 per 

19 regulation at the maximum. 

20 JUDGE YODER: Yes. 

21 MR. ELLIS: Okay, 91.405, our 

22 sanction guides go from moderate to maximum. 

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1 And 91.405 (a) goes from moderate to maximum on 

2 that particular reg; 91.405 (b) goes from 

3 minimum to moderate. 

4 JUDGE YODER: Excuse me. 

5 MR. ELLIS: And 91.407(a)(2) 

6 JUDGE YODER: Hold on. Reporter, 

7 are you still there? 

8 COURT REPORTER: Yes, I'm still 

9 here. 

10 JUDGE YODER: Okay. When we hear 

11 dial tones, we get nervous. Okay, thank you. 

12 All right, well you can submit 

13 something to explain that. But it has to do 

14 with the size of the Respondent and so that 

15 has to do with who the appropriate Respondent 

16 is, I guess. 

17 MR. ELLIS: That is correct. 

18 JUDGE YODER: And you calculated 

19 this based on what, the whole affiliation, the 

20 wholeness of the companies? 

21 MR. ELLIS: Yes. 

22 MR. LUDWIG: So you added all of 

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1 them together to come to the conclusion that 

2 Airline Transport Professionals, Inc. was a 

3 large company? I just want to make sure I 

4 understand that, Gerald. 

5 MR. ELLIS: Yes, we allege that 

6 ATP is a large company, a large business 

7 concern. 

8 JUDGE YODER: Okay. 

9 MR. LUDWIG: And just for the 

10 record, we deny that. 

11 JUDGE YODER: Okay. I have got 

12 one more. Is Respondent asserting inability 

13 to pay as a factor in the level of penalties? 

14 MR. LUDWIG: Yes, sir. This 

15 company, obviously, does training. It has 

16 suffered immensely during this recession. As 

17 Your Honor knows, the aviation, especially 

18 training, just about dropped off the face of 

19 the earth. It's starting to come back a 

20 little bit but we are still 

21 JUDGE YODER: Okay, when you say 

22 this company, you are talking about Inc. 

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1 MR. LUDWIG: I was talking about 

2 Inc. That is who Mr. Ellis is pointed his --

3 JUDGE YODER: I understand. So, 

4 if you are talking about Inc. and you are 

5 talking about inability to pay, then you are 

6 going to have to submit financials. Mr. Ellis 

7 has a form that you normally fill that out 

8 because if you want that considered as a 

9 factor, you have to prove your financials in 

10 order to demonstrate that ability to pay 

11 should be considered. 

12 MR. LUDWIG: I think those were 

13 given to them at the informal conference, Your 

14 Honor. 

15 JUDGE YODER: Well, I don't have 

16 it. 

17 MR. LUDWIG: Yes, okay. 

18 JUDGE YODER: So, that needs to be 

19 provided. And if this is going to go to 

20 hearing we are going to get embroiled in 

21 whether this is a single company, a single 

22 enterprise operating under a one name with a 

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1 bunch of different corporations, then you are 

2 probably looking at financials on all the 

3 companies. Do you understand what I am 

4 saying? 

5 MR. LUDWIG: Well, you know we are 

6 kind of disregarding the separation of 

7 corporations. I mean that is why people 

8 operate in separate corporations. And I don't 

9 think, Your Honor, that they file a 

10 consolidated tax return. I think they file 

11 individual tax returns. 

12 So, lumping them all together is, 

13 in a way, problematic. But I will have to 

14 look into that. 

15 JUDGE YODER: Because at the end 

16 of the day, the issue here is going to be who 

17 is operating these aircraft. And that means 

18 within this combination of companies, were 

19 they working together to operate the aircraft? 

20 And you can look at the case law. The 

21 question is who winds up operating the 

22 aircraft. And that can be more than one. And 

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1 it certainly normally is not the person who 

2 flies the airplane. I think that would be 

3 very rare to come up with a conclusion that 

4 the operator under the FARs is the person who 

5 flies the plane. They may be an operator but 

6 the question is who is the operator for this 

7 purpose. And that is what we are going to be 

8 looking at. 

9 So, what I had in mind is that 

10 hopefully you guys will get together and talk 

11 about resolving this in some way and then you 

12 will get back to me and let me know whether it 

13 is getting settled or it is not getting 

14 settled. 

15 MR. LUDWIG: Your Honor, I don't 

16 want the Court to get the impression that Mr. 

17 Ellis and I have had a problem communicating 

18 because anytime I have reached out or he has 

19 reached out, he has always or we have always 

20 been able to talk with each other. 

21 JUDGE YODER: Oh, I understand. I 

2 2 am just trying to think in terms of a schedule 

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1 for where we go from here. And I was hoping 

2 that two weeks might be enough time for you 

3 fellows to talk about that. 

4 MR. LUDWIG: If Gerald's schedule 

5 allows chatting within the next two weeks, it 

6 certainly won't be this afternoon but sometime 

7 next week I represent that I will call Mr. 

8 Ellis. I understand he has moved and I don't 

9 have -- I think Your Honor gave me -- Gerald 

10 a new phone number 404-305-5200? 

11 MR. ELLIS: 5200 is the general 

12 office number. You can always reach me on 

13 that. My office is in the same place I just 

14 have a new position. 

15 MR. LUDWIG: Okay. Do you have a 

16 direct line, sir? 

17 MR. ELLIS: 5204. 

18 JUDGE YODER: Now, we also have 

19 identified some documents that we wanted 

20 submitted. You can have the same date for the 

21 submission of those. You can have an earlier 

22 date or you can have a date after you decide 

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1 whether you can settle it. Which way do you 

2 want to do it? 

3 MR. ELLIS: I think it makes more 

4 sense to talk settlement and then go on the 

5 record. We can agree on it now, if you want 

6 to. It's all right with me. 

7 JUDGE YODER: That's fine. We 

8 will do two weeks and then you will get back 

9 to me and let me know whether it is settling. 

10 Two weeks from that date for the submission of 

11 the various documents we talked about would be 

12 September 5. Two weeks from today is August 

13 22. That is the date you will get back to me 

14 and you will let me know whether we are going 

15 forward or we are settling. 

16 And then --

17 MR. ELLIS: What was that date 

18 again, Your Honor? I'm sorry. 

19 JUDGE YODER : August 22 is two 

20 weeks from today. 

21 MR. ELLIS: Okay. 

22 JUDGE YODER: And then so, 

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1 somebody will call me and let me know where we 

2 are going. 

3 And then two weeks from that date 

4 would --

5 MR. LUDWIG: September 5th. 

6 JUDGE YODER: be September 5 

7 for submission of documents. 

8 Then I want pretrial briefs on the 

9 subject of the responsibilityof the entities. 

10 And I want the information on the ability to 

11 pay in the submission of documents. So, you 

12 will want to brief the question of penalty 

13 level and justifying it, based on size or 

14 whatever. 

15 So, we will need --

16 MR. LUDWIG: When would you like 

17 that, Your Honor? 

18 JUDGE YODER: Well, the 

19 information on how it is being done should 

20 come in on the document submission date. 

21 MR. LUDWIG: The September 5th? 

22 JUDGE YODER: Yes, and then you 

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1 can argue about it on the brief date. And I 

2 was putting two weeks after the document date 

3 but it is really up to you. 

4 Two weeks after that would be 

5 September 19, if that works. If it doesn't 

6 work, we can move it out. 

7 MR. LUDWIG: Maybe we could push 

8 it out to the end. I have got some things 

9 coming up, Your Honor. How about, could we 

10 possibly push that to September 30th? 

11 JUDGE YODER: Sure. 

12 MR. LUDWIG: Is that all right 

13 with you, Gerald? 

14 MR. ELLIS: Yes, I need to 

15 let's see. Okay, August 22nd we will talk 

16 some. September 5th submission of docs and 

17 regarding pretrial briefs and the ability to 

18 pay and penalty level, those are all due the 

19 19th or are those separate dates? 

20 JUDGE YODER: That was the 19th 

21 and he was going to make it the 30th. 

22 MR. ELLIS: Okay. 

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1 JUDGE YODER: The 3Oth would be --

2 MR. LUDWIG: Was the brief date. 

3 JUDGE YODER: That is the brief 

4 date. 

5 MR. ELLIS: The 30th is the brief 

6 date and 

7 JUDGE YODER : And I don ' t know 

8 what day of the week that is. 

9 MR. LUDWIG: Your Honor, that is 

10 on September the 30th is a Tuesday. 

11 JUDGE YODER: Okay. Does that 

12 work for you fellows? 

13 MR. ELLIS: Okay, so the ability 

14 to pay and the penalty level issues would be 

15 the same day, the 30th? 

16 JUDGE YODER: Everything you brief 

17 would be the same day but we want the 

18 information on how the penalty is calculated 

19 

20 MR. ELLIS: Before the 30th? 

21 JUDGE YODER: Yes. And the 

22 documents on ability to pay, which means 

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1 financial submissions. 

2 MR. LUDWIG: By the 5th? 

3 JUDGE YODER: By the 5th. 

4 MR. ELLIS: Okay. 

5 JUDGE YODER: Does the 30th work? 

6 MR. ELLIS: We can make it work. 

7 JUDGE YODER: Okay. I mean if you 

8 run into problems on these dates, there is no 

9 magic to them. I just want to make sure we 

10 have got dates and that all the dates --

11 MR. LUDWIG: The case gets moving 

12 forward. 

13 JUDGE YODER: are in hand 

14 dates. They are not mail dates. They are not 

15 placed in the hands of somebody else dates. 

16 They are placed in my hands dates. 

17 MR. LUDWIG: Your Honor, let me 

18 ask you just regarding that issue. 

19 JUDGE YODER: Yes. 

20 MR. LUDWIG: These would go to 

21 Your Honor at the --

22 JUDGE YODER: They actually have 

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1 to go to the main headquarters building. 

2 MR. LUDWIG: The USDOT Office of 

3 Hearings? 

4 JUDGE YODER: No, they go to the 

5 main headquarters and they go to the mail 

6 center and then they trot them -- we are not 

7 in the main building anymore. We are at 55 M 

8 Street. But we get all of our mail delivered 

9 down there because we have to make sure nobody 

10 is sending us bombs. 

11 MR. LUDWIG: That's crazy, I know. 

12 The service -- well, when you set out your DTC 

13 and you signed it and then you had the copy, 

14 the original and one copy to myself and then 

15 Gerald, and then to you. Do we use that 

16 address that you put on that? 

17 JUDGE YODER: I would think so. 

18 Let me see what they put. 

19 MR. LUDWIG: There is a notation 

20 

21 JUDGE YODER: Yes, I have got a 

22 service address. It is Room 12-320, 1200 New 

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1 Jersey Avenue, Southeast. 

2 MR. LUDWIG: Yes, sir. 

3 JUDGE YODER: That is the mail 

4 center. 

5 MR. LUDWIG: Okay. I just don't 

6 want to get caught up on a little 

7 technicality. 

8 JUDGE YODER: Oh, I understand. 

9 MR. LUDWIG: Because it gets 

10 confusing sometimes. 

11 MR. ELLIS: But you will get that 

12 fax, right, Your Honor, if it were faxed to 

13 you? 

14 JUDGE YODER: Yes. Yes, you can 

15 email it or fax it but that is not service. 

16 I mean that will get it to me and that will 

17 satisfy the due date. 

18 MR. ELLIS: Okay. 

19 MR. LUDWIG: But the hard copy 

20 papergoestothisaddress. Yes, sir, that is 

21 no problem. 

22 JUDGE YODER: But it would be good 

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1 to send it 

2 MR. LUDWIG: Fax and U.S mail. 

3 JUDGE YODER: by fax or email. 

4 MR. LUDWIG: Okay, I do not have 

5 Your Honor's email. 

6 JUDGE YODER: It is 

7 ronnie.yoder®dot.gov; R-0-N-N-I-Edot Y-0-D-E8 R at D-0-T dot G-0-V. 

9 MR. LUDWIG: Ronnie.yoder®dot.gov, 

10 okay. 

11 JUDGE YODER: It turns out that 

12 the address in the service list should be E13 11-310. Sorry about that. 

14 MR. LUDWIG: Okay, Room E-11-310. 

15 JUDGE YODER: Yes. 

16 MR. LUDWIG: Okay, I have changed 

17 that. 

18 JUDGE YODER: All right. And 

19 then, let's see, so did we settle on September 

2 0 3 0? 

21 MR. ELLIS: So far, Your Honor. 

22 JUDGE YODER: Okay and then I was 

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1 going to give you-- let's see that gives you 

2 -- I was thinking of a week or two weeks ' 

3 after that for a reply. 

4 MR. LUDWIG: Two weeks for a reply 

5 brief? 

6 JUDGE YODER: Yes. 

7 MR. LUDWIG: Let me get my 

8 calendar here. 

9 JUDGE YODER: That would be the 

10 14th. 

11 MR. LUDWIG: That would be a 

12 Tuesday, too, of October. 

13 JUDGE YODER: Yes, 10/14. Okay? 

14 MR. LUDWIG: All right. 

15 JUDGE YODER: All right, anything 

16 further? Oh, we will see what those things 

17 look like and if need be, we will make 

18 rulings. If not, we will set a hearing. And 

19 my current inclination is to have the hearing 

20 here at a time and place to be fixed. 

21 MR. ELLIS: By here you mean D.C.? 

22 JUDGE YODER: Yes, sir. 

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1 MR. LUDWIG: D. C., not in 

2 Jacksonville, Your Honor? 

3 JUDGE YODER: I don't think so. 

4 MR. ELLIS: I think we asked for 

5 

6 JUDGE YODER: You asked for 

7 Richmond. 

8 MR. ELLIS: -- Richmond, right. 

9 JUDGE YODER: Right. 

10 MR. LUDWIG: Richmond, Virginia? 

11 JUDGE YODER: Right. 

12 MR. LUDWIG: Okay. 

13 JUDGE YODER: But in any event, 

14 you can assume it will be here, unless 

15 something different happens. You can make a 

16 submission on that subject, if you want to. 

17 MR. LUDWIG: Okay. 

18 JUDGE YODER: Okay. 

19 MR. ELLIS: Very good, Your Honor. 

20 JUDGE YODER: Anything further 

21 from anybody? 

22 MR. ELLIS: Not from the FAA, Your 

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1 Honor. 

2 JUDGE YODER: Okay. Well, thank 

3 you both very much for participating and we 

4 will look forward to hearing from you in a 

5 couple of weeks to see whether this goes 

6 forward or not. 

7 MR. LUDWIG: Okay, Judge, thank 

8 you. 

9 MR. ELLIS: Just call me next 

10 week. I'll be around. 

11 JUDGE YODER: All right. 

12 (Whereupon, the above-entitled 

13 matter went off the record at 2:32p.m.) 

14 

15 

16 

17 

18 

19 

20 

21 

22 

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Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. 

Washington DC 

Page 96 

www.nealrgross.com 
97 

C E R T I F I C A T E 

This is to certify that the foregoing transcript 

In the matter of: Airline Transport Professionals 

Before: DOT/FAA 

Date: 08-08-14 

Place: teleconference 

was duly recorded and accurately transcribed under 

my direction; further, that said transcript is a 

true and accurate record of the proceedings. 

Court Reporter 

NEAL R. GROSS 

(202) 234-4433 

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com