REF ID:A66087 --~ - --_ _,, _____________ _ .. -,. - __._._._ - - ·-4 

10P sEe~ ::.r 

!'OP 6»9R ET '3 ~t:H f'f'Y fffti'6Rf.b\T !OH 

AF3A/17 Mar. 1952 

JIEETING JF SPECIAL COMMUNICATIONS ADVISORY GROUP (SCAG) 

Date: 12 March 1952 

Time: 0900 - 1130 

1230 - 1345 

Place: Room 3E-1020, the Pentagon. 

Present 

Dr. H. P. Robertson 

Dr. R. K. Potter 

Mr • John H. Howard 

Dr. Charles B. Tompkins 

Dr • ..Tohn von Neumann 

Dr. Claude E. Shannon 

Dr. Howard T. Engstrom Mr. Edwin A. Speakman Dr. Stewart s. Cairns 

Mr. John Cloud Mc?herson 

Mr. Doan .?oat 

OGA 

CIA 

Mr., Chadwell 

Mr. Eecker 

Declassified and approved for release by NSA on 09-22-2014 pursuantto E.O. 1352a 

TCP e:c~ET 

1 

3 
REF 

TOP __ .eRE:f 

AFSA/+7 •ar. 1952 

SUBJ: Meeting of SCAG - 12 Mar. 

------.-.-------- ~ -- ~ - - - - ~ - -- ~ 

1m. SPEADAJh Time la rather rigid. Wo have a luncheon date 

at 1130. Maybe we can start the prel1m1nar1 things until 

Dr. lngstrom gets here. He baa attempted to draw up a paper in anawer to the aeries of auost1ons which we had put together. 

I have asked Mr. Chadwell to come over and to g1ve us the 

benefit or what he knows concerning CIA with reference to 

the primary problem and the importance or it. 

Would ~ou like to start out. Kr. Chadwell, and give us the 

background on thia problem? I am sure 1t would be ot 

bener1t to tbo group here who will have to put their thoughts tosether later th1• morning. 

MP.. CHADWEILs I repreaont morely one group or conaumera who 

are interested in the take. The importance of eolv1nR the 

problem to me 1a •• great now and perhaps •••n greater than 

it waa when the group waa rtrat organ11ed. The organ!zat!on 

ot the group ••• followed ~or aome time by a period or concern among the consumer groupa. 

It 1a ooaa1ble that advances may be made by the auocess or 

clandestine operations. For mJ own personal appraisal we 

ought to consider auch advances and on the baa1a or 

oppartunitJ there 1S7 be an extra year-end d1Yidend. It 

it 1a declared, 110 much the better. ____ . • -= :.=- - • - ~.,....,,_ .. ~ • • -- - .. ... 

I aJD 1n beart7 agreen::ent with the effort that la going to 

be made h8re to appraise the program divorced trom the 

aucoesa of auch aot1vities. as to !ta reaa1b111t7 and 

poaa1b111ty or aucceaa. 

A• I aa7 I am a consumer. I need the tako. How much value 

1t •111 be to me aa d1atingu1sbed trom other consumers 1a a 

remote question. I am aura that ihe value 1a there rrom 

previous experience. I am merely thinking that it it was 

recogn1ze4 the problem could perbap, be broken down on the 

bna1• ot two kinda or diatinct ocmponenta, the mathematical 

•1de of the thing as d1at1nct trom the technical side or the 

thing. 

Recogn1a1ng tha~, I think that attar al.most a 1ear ot atudy b7 this group we are 1n a position where •• can cash in on 

your ac!vice. 

2 

JOP StCREf 
~FSA/17 aar. 1952 

SUBJ& Meeting ot SCAG - 12 Mar. 

- ~ ~ - - - - ~ ~ ~ ~ - - ~ - ~ - ~ -- - ~ - - - -- ~ - - Those are tbe points that I haYe in mind. Ir you would 11ke 

to have me elaborate on an,th1ng that I have aa1d. I abculd 

be glad to do 10. 

MR. SP.EAIXAN1 As you well kno•• the group waa formed on a 

somewhat informal baa1a. There 1• no formalized charter. 

The question baa arisen wa to whether we •hould address our 

attention pr1mar117 to the Albatroaa probl~ •bother the 

group ehould ooncern itself •1th whether AFSA la ~o1ng all 

that 1t can do or ahould do on the Albatrosa problem and 

other problems, or whether th!a group ahould address 1taelt 

primarily to the solution or Albatross per se. It 1• a 

question of the technical appronch aa opposed to a d1acusa1on o~ the organization and the organizational pattern £or 

attacking auoh a problem. whether we •hould go into theae 

broader quest1ona. 

1111\. CHADViBIL: •1 personal feeling again 1a that Albatross 

1• Problem Io. l to tbia group. A reorganization or AFSA 

or correction or component weaknesses 1n m7 opinion 1a 

Vo. 2 on the liet. There 1a another group, as 1ou know. 

etud7tng the overall organifation. Again I think that an7 

recommendationa on 7our second point would most cortahly be aer1oual1 ccnaidered. 'I'he two tie together to a certain 

extent. On the other hand, the high crn>to problem 1a Ho. 1 

tor m7 mone7. 

am. BEClQSR t 117 att1 tude toward this group 1• to re~ard 1 ta 

problem aa one or two or three of the moat Important thin~• 

that we are eneaged in now. 

Tho thing that worriea me the most 1• not ao much as to our 

current poa1t1on but as to our basic position w1th respect 

to research. I think we have made a lot ot improvement a1nce 

the last war in all respects. My reeling on the que•tlon 

ot Albatross •• d11t!nct from the organization ot AFSA 1a 

that the organization, ex~ept insofar aa 1t relates to 

rocuaing all possible reaources on the aolut1on ot Albatross. 

will be taken care of by other committees. I would be ~er~ 

unhappJ 1r you ln 7our determination or the questions on 

Albatrosa did not teel ent1rel1 tree to •U{lgest an1 reorganization or AFSA'• atructUl"e. 

llR. SPEA!JlAN1 From the customer's standpoint your 1ntereat 

lies 1n the technical eolutlon of the Albatross problem! 

llR. BECQ.'R; I don't quite understand J'Our question. Do 'JOU 

mean that we are 1ntereated in the techniques and that aort o~ tbing because I don't presume to be qualified to have 

an1 opinion on that? le are 1ntereated in the organ1zat1on 

l"UP ('ro· - - ·- . ·- ~ . . . 
REF ID:A66087 

~ .I 

APSA/17 War. l952 

SUBJ; Meeting 01 SCAG - 12 Mar. 

~ ~ ~ ~ -- ~ ~ - ~ - ~ --- - ~ - - - - - ~ --- ~ - - - or 1t. in the pos11b111t7 of solving that technical problem although we at the present time are ent1rel7 in the atatua 

or a consumer agenc1. We always reg~rd ourael•ea aa • 

potential producer. If the present rac111t1ea do not 

aat1sr1 the needs to tinallj aolve the Albatross problem, they will not •at!a.tJ t~oae needs. 

Dr. Engstrom entered the meeting. 

KR. SPBADAJI: We have asked throe representatives ot ClA 

to •1t down •1th ua tor the f1rat part or our meeting in 

cr7atall1s1ng acme ot our thinking aa to whether we should 

concern ourselves prlmartly with the technical aspects 1n 

the solution ot the Albatross problem or whether we ehould 

go into tho broader aapocta or crgan1zat1on. 

Kr. Chadwell has told WI that Albatross 1• •o. 1. In 

addition he wants to make an1 comments on the other aepecta that would be in order. 

im. CHADWELL: On the organ1zat1on part of the thing, plain 

text !a 1n my opinion a separate problem. 

11.R. llCPHERSOH: We want to determine whether we can earelJ 

make the aa1umption that Albatross ia a fixed problem wherein 1t we ao1ve th1e problem we are 1n for good. Th1• 

Committee baa looked a little at the broader than e.x1st1ng :machine systems used on th!• Alabtroaa problem becaiae we 

have aasumod that the macb1nea changed l••t 1ear and ma~ 

change tomorrow or next •onda7. 1'horerore, the Committee 

must probablJ go be1ond a single •olutton to this problem and consider prett7 care:t'ull7 what to do 1r it changes. 

E. BECDfi 1 I waa th1nk1ng or Albatross 1n the broadest; 

aenee tn which ,.au describe it rather than the mathematical 

interim solution to a~compli•h that and alao to set up something that will permit us to race whatever comes next. 

DR. CAJRBSa Any method developed 1n this connection should 

be powerful. 

~. E!GSTRO•: '!'he activities ot SCAO ahculd be correntrated 

on the Albatross problem not with the idea the7 will 

•olve the problem but with the idea or isolating • particular 

area. I thtnk that the membera ot SCAa •hould now look at 

the Albatross problem in all or its ram1t1cat1one. We h•~• 
REF ID:A66087 

..:..:vf' SECREI .APSA/17 Kt1r. Q52 

SUBJ: Meeting of SCAO - 12 KAr. ... ____ ... __ 

reaehe~ the point where we should make certain apec1t1c reoommendaticna with respect to thiS particular problem, not 

that these recoirerendstiona ought to be limited neceasar117 

to this particular problem. Perhapa there ought to be more 

general ones. The t1eld 1a so broad that unleaa ~ou concentrate somewhere 7ou spread all over tbe place. It 11 

yery 01ft1cult. 

Iff. POTT&:R: CIA !a not eapec1ally interested in juat how 

SCAG operates in getting a aolutlon to Albatross. whether 

1t bas to do with the reorgan!zat1on ot AFSA, whether there 

•re recommencSed changes that might g1•e a better eolut!on 

or give a solution, or whether 1t ia a techn1oal thing~ 

JIB. BECKBr\t I would aa7 that we are not interested spec1- t1callJ 1n the technical recommendat1ona. I think we might be more interested 1n an7 recommendations that 7ou ma7 or 

would make on tho roorgan1zat!on or the tunctional ~ct1v1t7 

over there, pr1mar117 because of a pos•ible impact on aome 

of our other relation• and act1?1tiea at AFSA. 

DR. POTTER: The point I was dr1•1ng at is that there ta a 

machine going now that is directed pr1mar117 at that problem. There are two ws1s ror ua to approach the solution they are 

aaking us to get there. We can take the problem ott 1n a 

oorner an4 talk about it quite 1ndependantl7 ot what 1• 

go1ng on in other places. The other 1s to consider not 

only what SCAG ~1ght do but what might be dona to reorganize, 1r 1ou w1ll, or rodos1gn the machine work on the problem. 

DR. ROBEF.TSON: You mean AFSA? Haven't ~ou the machine time 

at AFSA? Would 1t be possible to get it? 

MR. BECKER: Our parerence would be the latter. We would 

not want to confine ourselves to what might be done completely 

independently but to consider the whole thing. 

DR. EllGSTR0M: Adm. Wenger expraseed the problem. the 

primary question 1a, "Ia AFSA do1ng ever)'th1ng possible to 

aolve th1e high-level 1ntell1Renoe problem?" ~hat 1a the 

first question he would like SCAG to answer. Well, I think 

the answer to that is inevitably •10°. The poseib111ty depends upon the sources, ao you get back to how much money and manpower 1• reaaonabl7 allocated to those problems. This Committee aaya tb~t we don't reel everything posa1ble 1e being done. We mean that there •re reeourcos,techn!cal, 

6 
REF ID:A66087 

"[OP &ECfo .. I AFSA/17 •ar. 1952 

SUl!J: Meeting or SCAQ - 12 Mar. 

~ -- ~ - - ~ ~ ~ - - - ~ - - - ~ ~ - ~ - ~ - - ~ - ~ ~ - - - manpower, anO 1ndustr1al-w1ae which are not be1ng brought to 

bear on th1• problem. However, to judge that, I think one 

must get an expression from an Agency like 7oura who 1• the 

user which 111.ll g1Ye ua some measure or the value or th1• 

atom1o bomb or airplane or whatever it la to give a 

•tandart1. 

DB. VOH ilUMANl1 11th1n ourselves la it possible ror ua 

1n our independent efforts to use Roberts' method? It would 

be possible to make the calculations which he made and aaa1gn them to a larger phase or time? 

DR. BNGSTliOKc Ver7 det1n1te17. 

IE. VOH HBUllAMHz le would be justitled in putting 1t in. 

fli.e number ot hours th•1 devote to tbe problem 1a extremel7 

a'm&.ll. 

llR. SPEAJOIAlh In eaaence 1 t would bo a speed-up. 

all. BECKER : You can only predict the results ot' a aucce1st'ul 

eolut1on or the Albatross problem because that sort ot thing 1s 10 variable. Ott'hand you would say that it might condition 

all other pr1ar1t1ea 1t' 7ou solved it succesatully by virtue 

ot tho 1ntell1gence received. Aa to the resources. I think 

ot ourselves aa poa11bly capable of adding to tbe available 

resources in a aomewb.at more t'lex1ble manner than APSA ma7 

be able to do. We •ould at and read7 to consider most an,. 

suggestions you would have on that acore aa JOU probably know from what llr. Dougl•• has sa1d berore. 

JIR. MCPHERSON: The problem ia worth double the cost of 

AFSA? 

JIR. BECKER r I would think 1 t would be. 

DR. P.OBERTSOHs When you ea1 JOU are 1n ch•rge ot production 

over at CIA 70u mean production rrom all aourcea coming in? 

I would like to get some kind or !eel1:ag ot the prcm1nence ~ A~SA in 7our general take. I can't ask 7ou to give a 

number on that. 

IR. BECltER: Actually in the most recent t'igurect I have 

•een it varies terr1t1call7 depending on what particular 

use ycu put it to. I can say that it is one or our pr1mar7 aou~cea at present and at present ia a ver~ •orr~ take 

compared with what it ahould be and what 1t waa during the 

last war. 

6 
- ___ .,_ .. _...,......,__ .. 1'f,.. I., I 1 

REF 

"12 ~eC~i::l • AP'SA/17 11-ir. 1952 

8UBJ: Jlaet1ng of SCAG - 12 Mar. 'DR-; ffoBEJfTSOlf:- Noiie-tiie-iiii Yt-18 Im'Portint.- - - - - -

Ill. BECKERi The whole thing, as you can •ee, stems trom 

enormous d1:t't1cult1e11 ot intelligence collectlon. You are ~••ling •1th a whole complex l!at or countries who proceed 

on the theor~ that even normal economic reports are 

clasa1tied. 

DR. EIGSTl\OK: The answer to Adm. Wenger'• t1rat queatlon. 

to r·epeat, "Ia AFSA doing ever;rthing possible toward a 

aolut!on ot this problem.?" I think the answer 1e •10". 

DR. POT'J.'EI\i You brought up a point here which has been a 

bit contua1ng to several or ua on the SOAG group. That 1• 

the question ot whether our reapona1bil1t7 1• pr1mar1ly 

to answer Adm. Wengar's question. or is it a question or 

tr71ng to suggest what might be done to f1nd a solution 

to the Albatrosa problem1 

DR. BHGSTROM& I think, Dr. Potter, that our pr1mar7 one 

1• to answer the queat1on that Adm. Wenger aaked. It the 

answer to that is negative. then the next question 1a, 

u•bat should be done to take advantage or the other 

poaa1b111t1eaf" In answering the second question, l don't 

think tbe 11m1tat1on 18 eaeentiall7 on what APSA ahould do. 

It ia Juat what should be done. 

JIR. HOOAIU>: There 1a qu1 te a bit or d1fterence it CIA 

aaka me whether AFSA is doing everything possible or tr 

Adm. Wenger aaka me whether APSA 1s doing everltbing possible. I think 1t 1s an entirely d1fterent problem. would answer 

it quite diffei-entl7. I think you would have to answer that 

problem in d1f~efent ••7•· Your approach m1ght be eatiatactor1 trom CIA a atandpoint but not sat1afactor7 from 

APSA'•· Iou •1ght juat put it on the table and aa7, •AFSA 

Juat 11n't capable tat reorganizing itselr to get at the 

thing. Ir 7ou were working tor AFSA, I think JOU would 

h•v• a dtrrorent answer. 

DB. ROBER~SO•s On Adm. Wenger's question, nz• AFSA making the beat uae ot ita resources and 1ntell1gence?" Ia thia 

being looked at enough from the outside? F1r1t, 1a AFSA 

aa a whole doing enough in the general picture? Secoldlr117 

1t 1t 1•, would it still be enough? I ~h1nk SCAG has to 

consider both or theee questions. 

Ift. PO'ITJ::R 1 You brought in one quest ion. 

IR. TOllPkrtiSs that 1• a very nice little approach to an 

•nt1r•l1 ditferent problem rrom what we aa SCAO or what 

acme other group outside ot AFSA could do to tind a solution 

to thi• problem. I think we are not all shooting at the 

aame aim here, 

Tc.;..,,..,.,_.~! 

7 
REF ID:A66087 

3.3(h)(2) 

86-36/50 USC 3605 ·leP SECkc.I 

AFSA/17 Mar. 1952 

SUBJ: Meeting or SCAG - 12 Mar. 

~ - - -- - - ~ - ~ ~ ~ - -- ~ -- - ~ - ~ ~ - ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ - ltt. E!GSTROK: I think 1t 1& pertectl7 clear, t:r. Potter. 

SCAG baa devoted nine montba to tbe atud7 of th1e Albatross 

irobleza. Adm. Wenger ea7a, •Are we adequate?" The answer 1• 

Ro• on 1t. The next question 1a, 8 •hat do we do apec1t1- call7 to aolve the Albatross problem •1th no hold• barred?• 

Ia there any conce1vable wa1 ot 1mpleJB8nt1ng the solution, 

whether 1 ti 111 A.PS.& er CIA or Bell Laborator1ea or an}bodJ' else? I think the 1aaue la pertectly clear. 

In AFSA there 1• an operating aganc1. They must produoe 

trom all sources. The7 just can't put all the1r resources 

on the Albatross problem. The are worki •1th a chain 

APSA can't L..-....,......,'""""'_.........,._,---....-:;ic-r-r-,--:"K'lll:-:------=--=TT"T"'""":~um::=:p:::--:e=='verythlng on the 

Albatroaa problem.." 

Ill. ROBERTSOlh It JOU did, Jdr. Becker would object. 

Dii. VOB IEUIUHM: X. that more important than the other? 

Im. BEClifi s Not aolel7. 

DR. P. OBER'l'SOB: In the present take 1 t; 1a not. 

DR. BROSTROM; Oon. Canine ea1d to me the other da7, •1n 

running an industrial concern, J'OU have the problem or 

reaearoh in prov1d1:ng tor- the budget. The Board of Dlrectora 

w!.ll decide how much JOU can put on fundamental research." 

In an 1nduatr1al concern 7ou must make money. YoLl don't 

a1vert your complete errort from manu.taetur1ng private 

things to 1om.ething which 1a in the tuture and which ma7 

be uncertain. It 1• a question ot how much ettort 7ou can 

allocate to th1• sort of thing. 

J:li. ROBi'fiTSON: It depend• on the estimated chano•1 or 

auccesa, I waa ~er1 much interested to hear those who are 

coming into thia t1eld express opt1m1am. I don't know 

whether 1t would be well a~v1aed to put ~rester eftort 

on th1• ona aspect. I am ~ot aura 1n general that •e 

would agree with the opt1111fsm 1'lb.1ch ,-ou express here. 

DR. CAIRBSi I am not •o au.re. The opt.im1am ot the gr11.1p 

1• baaed on the tact that there are methods to do thir 

problem. The Roberta' method• that 1ntormat1on must ~ve 

been completel7 explored. 

Tuf ! : ... -r 

8 
. . • .. 

---::.:a; ....... - .. - _ ... _ ............ -..,., 

REF ID:A66087 

lOP SEGR~T 

APSA/17 Mar. 1962 

SUBJ: Meeting or SCAQ - 12 Mar. 

~ - ~ - - ~ ~ ~ - ~ -- ~ - - ~ - - - ~ -- - ~ - ~ -- ~ - m. VO.N NEUJIA.R!l: We have been waiting ror machine tJme tor 

n1ne months. What doea this mean? rr thia ie urgent, we 

have been waiting for machine time. The machine aita there. 

MR. SPEAJDlAlh CIA th1nka that 1 t would be the •o. l problem, Albatross 1 

&. BECKEl\1 Yea. Prom AFSA. Ia it certain that the 

question 1a resolved in the question or pr1or1t7~· In other 

words 1• there no pose1b111t7 o~ securing additional re-

•ources so aa to eliminate the priorit7 problem? 

DR. PGSTRO?l: I think that it la one or the things that 

the Committee should consider. 

llR. BECltERi I would be 1ncl1ned to ask you pecple to g1ve 70ur advice aa to what shruld be done without worrying about pr1or1t1ea. How can ihe problem be •olved? Then ~ollow up those recommendations by having a go-around. Aro theJ controlled b7 priority products or th1nea or 

that aort that requ1~e ua to impose pr1or1t1ea, or can 

we by the allocation or additional reaourcea carr7 on 

both act1v1t1ea at what we regard aa ma.xl~um efticienc7T 

JIR. MCPHERSON: You do have apsre lead-time. It 1• one 

to three J&ara't1me. Should there be a local prlor1t7, 

a abort-term pr1or1t7,applied to increase the probab111t7? 

DR. VO?f MEUMAlfHa AnJ'thing JOU would want 1n •ix months 

7ou would want done 1n twelve months? 

llR. BECKER i Yee. 

Iii. CADt:RS J Things like the .Eaat German problem ;we can 

hardly expect those to be set ••!de. 

Ill. BHG5TROMz A great deal or machine time 1• be1og de•oted 

to other problems which are equally important. There 1• 

tha additive job. Zomb7, and BootBtrap OperatJon. 

llR. HOWARD& The pr1or1t7 will alwa7a be b'J' you. You have 

to 1'1gure out the r1gbt thin.gs to do. You can't t1nd an 

1nt1n1te number. 

D~. VOB RET.DiAHN: We would have to rind out whether 1t ta 

more important or leas important. 
REF ID:A66087 

AFSA/17 Mar. 1952 

IUBJ: Meeting or SCAO - 12 Kar. 

- - - -- - ~ ~ -- -- ~ ~ ~ - --- - - - - - ~ - - - - - llF.. H0':4.ARD: To aay that all attention should be de-.oted to 

Boberts' method 1• a little bit raah on our part. 

DR. BNGS'l'BO»z '!'hat la right, John. You must approach certa1n avenuea in the solution ot tho problem. To aa7 that 

the problem exists and that 1t 1a yery important 1• not 

tm.OlJ&h. You must •&16 wwe11. •hat •111 •• dof• Here 1• 

the mathematical technique, the Tompk1na 1 and Roberta' 

•pproad;l3; •h1ch Dr. von Heumann ••J• have been 1naurr1c1entl7 

processed. He 1a not aat1at1ed with them to the fb..clua1on 

of' an.,.th!ng else. Be:re 1e a street wh.1oh appears to be 

open. Let'• go down the street. Ir an7bod7 baa an7 other 

avenues or approach, let's do 1t. 

DF.. TOMPKINS s '?he long and short of 1 t seems to be th1a. 

Bere 1a a acheme which baa aome promlae but baa not been 

adequately tried. Equipment le there which could be used 

tor that. li1ator1oall7 that equipment waa bought tar 

th1e kind ot bus1neaa and turned over to production ueage. I don't think that b7 aaying that we abould give this 

Roberta' method a fling on that maob1ne moan.a that AFSA 

should go out ot the production buaineaa completel7. The 

question is whether 1t ta not proper to reassign time on 

the thing. put aome t1me on continuing the capital investment, anti have more knowledge ao that we won't be in 

prec1ael7 the aame poa1t1on five )"ears from now. Th•J 

are doing the two-bit work out there and at111 do not 

know how to do the important work. There are a lot or 

people out there who are not competent to do th1a aort 

or th1ng. 1'bey have to have it processed ror them to 

handle 1t. 

llR. :BECDR1 Tho d1f'1'1cult7 1n answering a question like 

that 1e obv1oue. If we had 7our recoD1Dendat1ona •• to what 

t1me would be required and then were g1Yen a chance to see 

wba t those machines are being uatKI tor now and evaluate 

what the production 1a worth to ws aa compared •1th the 

acceleration of the Albatross problem, I don't tb1nk we 

would bavo much d1f.t'loult7 1n giving 7ou an answer. The 

baa1c .ractora on that could be determined without too 

much d1tt1oult7 with your adYice. 

00. 1'1fOS'!'ROlh !'be :more I think aboufi 1 t the more I .teel 

the ultimate aolut1on or th1• tl'Pe ot problan requires a 

••parat1on ot research actlvitiea trom the operational act1v1t1ea. I JUean a aeparation with a •tro:ng wall between 

tbem. In our experience during the war the same thing happened. We had lota ot machines. We could get no time 

on •n1 or them ror an1 explorator1 effort. The7 were 

•l•a7a in use on the da111 work. 

10 
-,........_--~~~~~~~~~---=----~-----,,..,,....,,.---._,..........._.,..._ -. .,...- -; ..... _ .. _;o---:-_ -=~""""'---..:::--................ - - .......... __ - ... - 

 ........ ._,... 

REF ID:A66087 

TOP SESRH / ....) APSA 17 •ar. igs2 

SUBJ: Sooting ot SCAG - 12 Mar. 

- - ~ ~ ~ ~ -- ~ --- - ~ - ~ - ---- ~ -- - - --- - llR. BECltFJ' i You want to phJ81callJ take out part of' the 

capac1t7f 

DP.. ENGSTROM; At leaat there must baa strong separation 

ao that thore will be no poaching or rundamental capac1t7 .from the operational people. 

DR. CAIRIS: Perhaps machine time could be dedicated to the 

ttltplorator1 work. 

DR. VON NBUJIANlf 1 Being practioal, there are only two 

propoaala which have been made. One 1• Albatross. There 

1a not the al1ghteat doubt that th1a calla ror two machines. 

Wh7 bother with Albatross 1r nothing 1• going to happen rar 

twelve months. Ro. 2. the people who are interested 1n 

th1a, our auperv1a1ng and planning personnel, exist in 

auch numbers. What they would need would probabl7 be 

a smaller amount or maoblne t1me. That 1a e••J' to get. What we need laat 1• pr1or1t7 tor us to have one machine 

tar a certain trac,1on of the time which would be apec1t1ed 

ano would be •&J' 25 per cent or :50 per cent. It came out 

on aometh1ng the order ot 25 per cent. 

JIR. BECKEi': Prom DlJ knowledge ot the present product:fon 

or AFSA '1lf1 entlro reaction to that ia that we would aupport product1onDR .. FOBER'l'SOl'i I am interested 1n knowing how much or the 

present problem that 7ou must have from AFSA does involve 

machine t1me. 

llii. BECKER 1 That 1 a an unknown tact or. 

DR. TOllPKINS: Much or that could be d'one •• well somewhere 

else. The thing ia to make any sort or reliable estimate. 

'fhia •art ot thing c ru.ld probablJ tie up one machine tar 

•S per cent of tho f;1me. 

DR. CAIRJrS: There are other machines in other placea which 

would be appropriate to uae •1th the Roberts' method. 

DR. TOMPXIIS: On a smaller baste you could probably get 

the 604: aaS the CTC • 

DR. EWGSTROJI: I think as tar as the diecuaaf on 1• concerned, 

Gentlemen, I think that as rar aa the representative• of CIA 

are concerned, what we would like toda7 is a statement or 

11 

ICF ~·!.!=!FT 
"' • I -..,, • • .a ~ .... 

1952 

SUBJ1 •eet1ng ot SCAO - 12 Mar. 

- - ~ ~ - ~ --- - ~ - - ~ - - - ----- ~ ~ - the broa~ 1asuea, the Oeta1la ot whtch we are not getting 1nto. The details a.re aometl!1ng which we ought to aettle 

in a closed aesa1on. We have certa1nl1 a ver1 atrong 

ltmse or the importance or thia thing which these gentlemen have given to ua. 

I would think that the time 18 appropriate to get down here 

to pro4ua1ng tb1a repol:'t. There 1• pressure to make some 

eort ot tarmal report ot the tindtnge or SCAG. Thia 

preaaure e omoe trom two aourcea. One la rrom Adm. Wenger 

at AFSA who would like to have euch a statement. Secondl7. 

aa 7ou probabl7 know the Brownell Comn1ttee 1• aleo anxious 

to have the r1nd1nga of SCAO in aome kirXI ot written rorm. 

I have prepared a working paper 1n connection •1th the 

f1tx!1nga of SCAG hero. A• aoon as appropriate we ought 

to get to •ork on 1t ao to speak. 

MR. MCPBE~SON: Going on to tbe queat!on I aaked, 1• the 

•olut1on or the Albatross Bigh Level Cipher Problem 

aometh1ng wb1ch ia warth twioe the coat to AFSA? Ia 

this thing reall7 worth doubling the ertort there? 

JIR. BECltElh There 1an' t the slight oat question in my mind 

but that it 1•. When 7ou cona1der the aav!nga in our own 

reaources that we sould acquire trom a solution or th1a, 

assuming that 1t 1a decent, that would be a rather modeat 

estimate ot 1ta Yalue to ua. 

DR. ~OBERTSOl1 In considering the kinds or questions that 

people aro asking you, there 1• one point that I would like 

to br1ng up 1n connection w1 tb what Dr. von Jreumann said' 

about the avenues far collection. That waa correctly 

•tated except rar one, the direct approach. The A.FSA 

peoplemve a sort or te~enc1 to turn or1t1c1am or them-

••lve• back into cr1t1c11ma ot the Cent1al Intelligence Agency tor not getting accurate and correct 1ntormat1on 

concerning this 4ev1ce. tr those tellowa reall7 want to 

get the answer to th!• problem. the~ will at1ll ha~e to 

use one or these machines. 

IR. BECXBRi We are devoting every ettort that we can to 

thia. It JOU haven't informed SCAG or that. we would 11ke 

to see it. 

DR. VOM IBWU.lilia It 1• completely different from the other 

one. It 7ou havo tt. then ~ou are able to anal7ze a lot 

or past 1llf ormat1on but you can never get anything into the 

.t'uture. 

12 

'1 I. p . ri ·Rt:,T 
REF ID:A66087 

=roP SECfiET AFSA/17 •~. .. 1952 

SUBJ: Meeting ot SCAG - 12 llar. 

~ - ----- ~ - - ~ ~ ~ - --- ~ - ~ ~ - - --. ~ - - - DR. ROBEJ\TSOB: That depends on how 1t 1a done. 

DR. BNGSTRJK: Perb.apa somebody might ~teal the whole machine, 

err an7 1nf'ormat1on or photograpba. Soraebod7 might tall 7ou 

how many wheel• there were 1n the thing. 

llf.. sgCXEl\z Aa 7ou know, we are aware of this problem. We 

will welcome auggest1ons from an1bod1 who has an7 aolut1on. ~here la one more word that would be helptul on pr1or1tJ. 

At preeent there 1• a great deal or waste on our pr1mar7 

aourcea. I think 1cu would be somewhat horrif'ied to a ee 

the large bulk rrom primary eources that 1• plain text 

pure and aimple. I! you were to evaluate the decr7pted product today, 1t would be much lower than 1our estimation. 

I ••'1 that w1 th some qual1tica-;1on becauae in certain casea 

one or two item.a m&J mean the d1fterence between a large 

mass o~ plain text and a complete or unqua11f'1ed statement. 

As f~ aa the value ot ex1at1ng production material,other 

than plain text it 1• not terr1t1oally large. 

llR. SP.iAXKASr You are getting a lot of plain text even 

not? 

III\. BECDii : 

DR • VO!f R.KUKAU: 

llf:. BECJtER: Messages. 

MB .. CHADWBLL1 All ot us have come to a personal opinion 

on that. That opinion !a that this material does not 

retlect the 1nterpretat1cn ot the people paaa1ng it along 

to JOU. It 1a in the record. You are not dependent upcn 

one person 1a71ng, "I heard this. I aaw this and I heard 

that." It 1a going 1n the record. I think the group ought 

OGA 

to plan to get together in executive aeas1on to hit these p~rt1cular problems. I would like to •~geat that the CIA 

representat1vea be exouaed 1r there aren t any other questions 

to put to them. 

IF.. SPEAIOIAlh Are there an7 questions that the members or 

SCAG would like to aak ot our CI.A friends here~ 

There were no questions. The CIA representatives left the 

meeting at; 1000. 

l:S luP hfCi1E:T 
REF ID:A66087 

:ror SECRET 

APSA/17 Jlar. 1952 

SUBJ: Keotlng ot SCAO - 12 Mar. 

OGA 

- - -- - --- --------- --- -- - -- - - --- DR. ROBEFTSOJ': Mr.~ ll'epresenta Mr. Iouglaa. He 1a 

with •r. Douglas an Mr. Chadwell. Tho'J' are both w1tl"_ 

Sr. Dou.glaa. Mr. Douglas baa the whole COMIBT shop there. 

DI\. POTTER: Do you have a not~on ot h1a relative interest? 

DR. R08ERTSO:I: I don't. The problem ie 110 great. CIA 111 

wcrk1ng on a problem fer ua at the Pentagon. 

llR. Batl.AE.D: He 1• an Executive Adviser or eometh1ng. llr. 

Chadwell represents Sc1ent1t1c Intelligence. 

DR. f.OBERTSOW: CIA 1• aet up in difrerent off1oes ot which 

one 1• 8c1ent1t1c Intelligence, •h1ch puts him 1n aa 

Aas1atant Director or CIA. 

DR. D'GSTROM: I have a set ntlDt.)er or copies or this thi:ng, Gentlemen. ! got this up aa a working paper. 

DP.. ROBERTSON: Dave JOU road the second volume or Churchill• 1 

Xemolra? During the bombing that whole tblng was broken b~· 

COllil'.r by a man named Jones. That will locate where Ill" .. 

Chadwell a1ts on tb1a picture. You remember that the 

Germana bad various beaming aecttons .. Th• tunct1on or 

those people, how the7 would work, and how the7 could 

weaken them waa broken by COM.IliT b7 this chap, J'ones. 'l'he 

story ot that 1a given in the second volume or Churchill'• 

•emo1ra. You can't tell from. Church11l 1 a account that this 

1a the source. 

DR. EVGSTROM: Letta &art oft with the paper. '!'he first 

two paragraph• or that atatement are eome•hat genera1.. I 

tb1nk that the queat1on. "I• the probitm aolvablet•. ma7 

require aome d1acusft1on. 

IlF. POTTm: Bow do 7ou want to handle thla dticusa1on, 

paragraph by paragraph or resd through 1t? We want to do 

whatever 1e best. 

DR. EIGSTllOU: Referring to tho Englishman. I don't know 

whether there was a written report. Dr. Campa1gne will 

explain 1t to 7ou. 

Manpower. that la aomething that perhaps we can discuss. 

DR. TOMPKIRS: I have hero a copy or the proposal from the 

ahop to Corona. Should we stick ths.t into the paper? 

lOP ~E(.~f.'T 

14 
• 

... ___ 

REF ID:A66087 

TOP SECR£:r I 

AFSA/17 -Mar. 1952 

SUBJ: 

____ Meeting or SCAQ - 12 Mar. ._._ .... ~ - ~ - ~ - ~ - ~ - - - ~ ~ -- - - - - . DR. EIGSTROMr We have to get out some kind of a report or 

a atatement. The Brownell Committee dea1rea 1t. Our 

!1ret problem 1s to get out aome k!nd or a report. 

Dr. ROBFETSOI: 'l'he plan 1a to meet with Qen. Canine tomorrow. 

It !a desirable to have a report and dlscuee it with him. 

llli. KCPHEPSOKz I wonder whether we ahouldn't consider thi• 

report a report to Gen. Canine am let him have the option 

or releasing it to CIA or the Brownell Committee. The people here are ehak1ng their head• hard. 

DR • TOMPKINS 1 We work with RDB. 

D.R. ROBa=.TSOKr I would say that this aho~ld be to Gen. 

Canine only. 

JIF.. HOWARD: I think it abould be g1Yen to Gen. Canine. 

Whether it is a report to Gen. C•n1ne or to the Brownell 

Comn1ttee,1t ia a etatement or our opinion. 

DR. rC'-I'Tl§i.z Could 7ou gl'fe 1t to the Chairman or RDB? 

He ma7 pa.sa it to the Brownell Coxcm!ttee. It we leave 1t 

w1th Gen. Canine, it ma.1 not get tar. 

I!'. nOBEl\TSOJl: '!'hi• brings up eometbil18 which I was going 

to mention, On page 2 1t •&Ja, "Ia the Armed Forces Securit7 

Agenoy carrying out all possible etopa ta~ard a solution or 

the Albatross problem?" 

We baye beon tald.ng about two phases or this. There la 

the queat1on or whether AFSA w1th1n its own organ1zat1on 1a making optimum uaa or ita own reaouraea. That •hould 

be 1n the report. Tb.at part 1a or concern to Gen. Canine. 

There 1a a 

t1ons here 

ot course, 

Committee. 

question which is involved 1n further recommendaot augmenting the resources or AFSA. ~at 1•. 

ot interest to RDB, CIA, and the 132'osnell 

There are both elements involved. 

tit. DGSTlH>Ka Whether the r·eport 1• to Gen. Canine, 1t 1• 

understood that he wants to aee the group tomorrow afternoon. 

Whether 1t is a report to r.DB, 'f1r1" reaction 1• a!mply that 

it la a atatement or SCAG'• opinion and the distribution 

or it is something be7ond that. 

IF.- SPEAE4AK1 If thia 1a a report or the f1nd1npa ot SCAG, 

what 7ou visualize as a result of your work to date, what 

1ou want to do in the tuture, what 1a the real1at1o question 

to '9.llk oursel'feB? 

Toi"' ~E:C,r(ET 

]5 
• '11 ... 1.)r • 

REF ID:A66087 

TOP Slll!ifl7 Mar. 1952 

8UBJ: Meeting ot SCAG - 12 Mar • 

.. - - .... - - .. ---.. --.. - - - -... ---- - - -- Dl\. PO'l''l'filf r I don 1 t th1nk 1ou can toss that or er 7our 

shoulder ae glibly aa that. We bave to decide on an 

autf!•nce. 

lllR. SPEAKMAN: tetin1tel'1 we will speak to A.FSA. Wo are 

working ror them on Albatrosa pr1mar117. 

llR. SCPl:lil1SON1 It would give it much better direction. 

We have been given the reepcna1b1l1ty to try and help them. 

If we can help them b) aay1r.:.g what 1• wrong •1th their 

present resources, I think we should. 

JIB. ll~~ARD: Are we now deciding on11ho SCAO works rorf 

llR. SPEAIOIAB; In a aense we are making a report to AFSA. 

It that Intimates that we are working tor APSA. I think 

we •hould so adm1t. 

DR. TOMPKINS: If we make the report to Gen. Canine and 

we .reel tbat the report ahculd have a somewhat wider ~1str1but1on, we could properl7 1Dclude remar&a 'o •how 

what we think is the proper d1atr1but1on or the report. 

DR. EOBERTSOI': I am on the Cammi ttee tor CIA. Ed 1a here 

in the same sense tar RDB·. In this report to aen. Canine 

I would consider it leg1 t1ma.te ror me to inform CIA ot 

the results or that, to inform my office in case we are 

called up bJ the Brownell Committee. I reel that the 

report ahould be tCll! Gen. Canine. 

MR. SPEAJtMAlls We could at111 give tho or1g1nal to Gen. 

Canine. We can :say. "Thia 1• our report. We are g1 v1ng copies to the Director ot CIA and to the Chairman ot RDB. 11 

DR. POXT:Efi: I am not arguing about who the repo:rt ought 

to be directed at. I think 1t ought to bo direoted at a 

epeo1t1c group aa the generalized comment or what we think 

ot the situation. One or th& tbinga that TOU can cr1t1c1se 

a little bit about tho •ay this is written now la that 1t 

1a not entirely directed to AFSA. We can say that we think 

it we a1d so and ao the thing would be much better. You 

are trying to do two things here, to define AFSA'a position 

as against CIA'•· 

U\. ElfGS'l'ROK: All I bave tried to do in the working paper is to write down a combination or the express!ona ot 

opinion that have been g1Yen in various SCAG meetings. This 1• a1mpl1 a working paper. I tried to get something 

16 lL'P SECRET 
TOP SECftE i / A.FSA 17 Msr. 1952 

IUBJ1 Meeting or SCAG - 12 Kar. 

~ - ~ ~ -- - - - - - ~ ~ - - -- ~ ~ - ~ -- ~ - ~ ~ - - ~ 

down on paper which th1e Comm1 tt'eo could bash around and 

lto anything wl th which 1t liked. I am not tr1lng to present 

a caae here. I am tr11ng to preeent the various oonnents 

that have been made toca7. 

llR. lllCPBERSJN1 I think that 1e a good suggestion. Kake 1t 

direct. 

DR. F.OB&/ISOK: The d1at1nct1on I havo bean making concern• 

the answer to Question Ro. 2. The two parts that I have 

manticnod then tall into place. In the part where .,.ou aa7 

that we think AFSA could make better uaa or what it now has. 

wo can mke de:t'inite recommendaticna. on the other part 

•• can aa1 that in 'View or tho 1mportanoe or the problem. 

we do teel that AFSA ahculd have more support trom outside, 

1r •• reel that •• .,.. 

LR. POTTEE.i It would not be confined exclusively to Gen. 

Canine alone or exclusively to anybody else. 

JE. P.OBERTSOll: U it 111 sharp enough ·to atate to Gen. 

Canine, we ahould put 1t up to bim to do it. 

DR. EHGSTROK: In order to get the thing done by tomorrow 

atternoon I suggest that prQbably the best thing to do 1• 

to hava a group appointed aa a working committee on that 

this afternoon and ma7be tomorrow morning. In the meantime 

we will try to get the general statement somewhat clar1r1od. 

We have a stenographer. MaJbe this outline abould be tossed 

over board and we should atart anew. 

DR. l\OBERTSON: What you have to do ls to get a emall group 

together to prepare a draft. For guidance on this we will 

go over th1a paragraph b7 paraeraph and make comments. 

DE. BNGSTROK: I think that Dr. Robertson's comment under 

Question 2 1a a very good one. Your point 1• that it •hould 

bo put in two parts. One 1a, nxa ever1 possible thing being done within the present structure or AFSA!• The second 

question is. •should tho resources be augmented be7ond that?" 

II\. CAIPNSt The !1rst question includes the question ot 

whether AF~A should 1taelt be expanded. The second question la whether 1t should be eupplomented. 

vf DR. r ... OBERTSOI: Ifot expanded by reor~an1zed. It 1s • 

question or whether JOU should put a certa1n 11mount ot 

machine time on Albatroaa to some extent right within 

AFSA. You don't want a narrow margin. 

IOP SFCRF r 

17 
1VI ... ,,. ... ....,-.""--. 

APSA/17 Kar. 1952 

SUBJ; Jl&et1ng or SCAO - 12 Mar• 

~ ~ ~ ~ - - ~ - --- ~ -- - - I 

JIR. KC PREF.SOB: Go back to the first page. You ·provide adv1oe ~ ass1atance. I think 1t ehould express exactl7 

what this Com:mittoe should ooneider 1ta operation. I think 

that we might go rartber in that same connection anCJ state 

apeo1r1oall7 that t'bia Comn1ttee is oonat1tuted for AFSA 

to aolve the Albatroas probltDl1 the specific problem. I 

feel that we couldn't •olve the problam 1r they asked ua 

to do 1t. I don't think we ahould separate that reapons1- b!l1ty in any form. I don't know whether that 1s a good conclue1on or not. I reel that ao atrongl~-

Dn. EWGSTROM1 You don't think that there 1a an7 expectation that this group is going to aolve the Albatross problem? 

MR. MCPHERSON: We can offer aaaiatanoe, auggest1ons, ar 

adv1oe. 

llR. SPEAltMAN: ~h!a la pr1mar1ly an adv1sor7 group. 

DR. TOMPKINS: •ake the auggeat1on expl1c1t enough. When 

you read the result• 7ou £ind out where they are going to 

hit next week. That 1a a ver7 good au.ggeation. 

DR. ENGSTROM: I think that the atenographer should take 

Oown a tew key sentences to incorporate into the report beoauae if ahe transcribes the complete record this 1• not 

going to be dona b7 tomorrow afternoon. I.r we could get the sentence that JCU just stated into the record, it 

would be holprul. 

This Committee cannot accept the reapona1b111t7 or being 

a substitute tor APSA in the solution ot Albatross. 

Jiil. HOWARD; It lt is a correct solution or Albatross. 

DR. CAll\IS: I wonder whether that should be aa1d. It 1• 

true that no one has 1nt1mated it. 

D.f!. PO'l'Tmli It 7ou come out with a solution, those word• 

would be used time and time again. 

llR. SPBAkMARz The implication ha.a frequentl7 been given in conversations with AFSA and CIA that SCAG has primar7 reapona1b111ty tor Albatross. Wh' don•~ 7ou solve it or 

tell ua what to do? It would put ua somewhat on the spot 

to say that we expect it rrom 7ou. We were not formed on 

the baa1a that we would do that, that we would apell out 

the tacts, Thia 1a pr1mar117 an advisor~ group. 

18 

--- --- --..:!:'-.....,.....::: 
REF ID:A66087 

}UP bECRET 

AFSA/17 Mar. 1952 

8UBJ1 Meeting ot SCAG - l2 Mer. 

~ - ~ - - ~ ~ - ~ - -- - --- - ~ -- --- ~ - - ~ -- ~ 

DR. aNGSTROK: How •bout the rest or the first page? 

DR. PO'ITEP: •• ought to havo an additional statement or 

the requirements for solution of the problem contalneO 

aa the lsat paragraph of this report. 

IE. CAIRNS: Doean't this exaggerate our conv1ct1ona aomewb'l t? 

IJ11. ROBERTSON: To me this is what; it means. The problem 

is solvable. I have heard 1ou sa7 that 1n 1our judgment 

1 t ia. I bave oontidenoe •hen I make that a ta tement. I 

accept it. The fact that I am accepting it adds nothing 

to it. To sa7 wunan1mouan !a prett7 strong. 

Jilt. SFEAIM.Ali: It 1e the opinion of those qual1t1ed to 

say th1a. · 

DR. FOBEf.TSOlf: The opinion or BCAG 111 that the problem is 

aolvable. It 1s the op1n1on or tho experts on SCAG that 

the problem is aolvable. 

DR. TOKPKINS: There are et111 a number or things to do. 

Why don't we do them! 

DB. ROBEl\.TSOlh What the :erownell Comm1 ttee wanta to know 

1s. ~Did SCAG think the problem is solvable?" Poasibl7 

aome or· the people trom AFSA didn't thil'l.k so. They want 

to know. Thi• 1n part le ular we.a extremely i.mpor tant to them. 

DR. TOMPKINS, Mr. Friedman told me last week that ha didn't 

reel tbs.t the problem could be aolved on a continuing baaia 

without some ~1rect kind of help such aa Mr. Rowa1d was 

talk1?JB about earlier. You can recover keJ eY•r7 da7. 

Whst else has to be done2 

DR. POTT~: Be doean't think 1t 1a solvable? 

Dt\. TOMPKINS: How do you feel about the problem? I don't 

see wh1 th!a thing la any worse than an1 other problem. 

tor example. the Jap ftsval Attache thing. 

MB. BOuAf.Dr It 1a nos a •'•tic problem. I could take the 

probleri as described and get no more information on 1t. 
REF ID:A66087 

JOP SffiRliil" 

AFSA/17 Jlsr. 1952 

SUBJ: Meeting or SCAG - 12 Kar. ~ ~ - ~ - - ~ - ~ ~ - ~ - - - ~ - - - ~ ~ - - - ~ -- - - - If I go off ln the corner, I doubt that I could solve 1t or 

that anybody elao could solve it. I am locking ror dJDam1c 

growth,, tor new in.t'ormation to be made. 

DR. ROBERTSON: Do 7ou require in.t'ormat!on trom clandestine aourc~a or do JOU know or direct intormation? Do JOU think 

JOU can aolve it without tb.atf 

DR. EHOSTROK: Direct 1ntormat1on is most ~aluable~ 

DR. ~vMPXI.NS: The Brownell Committee would like to have 

an opinion on the aolvab111ty or it. I don't know that we 

are competent to have an opinion. •1 gueaa 1• "Yea". 

DR. FOBEltTSOB: It 7ou want to put a rider on tha\ ~ou 

might aay that there is extremely valuable information from 

olandost1ne sources. That is very real and is something 

th411 want to know too. 

Ill\. EBOS'l'I\OKs State here that members or SCAG are of the 

opinion that the Albatross problem ta solvable. 

DR. TOKPKIHS: It might be done b7 a alight rider to 1iih1a 

!t an7bod7 would like to put one on it. I think 1t 1• 

aolvable. At any rate there are several concluatone, 

•e•eral constructive auggeat1ona ae to th1nga to do which 

will incre&ae our knowledge. We ou~ht tc include the 

probability that some o~ these th1nga will work together 

1n auch a wa1 aa to 1T.8ke the most of them and golhaad and 

tr,. them. 

DR. EHOS'I'l\Oll: ~hat 1e 1n the latter part or the report. 

You want to make a atatement ln some torm or other 1n 

general terma about the •olvab111t1 or the problem. 

m. VON NEUMA.lllh 

atatement that we 

With it if we had 

rormulate it in a 

more direct. 

I am in general consonance with the 

tb!nk it is solvable. I would concur 

a formal atatament. I would perhapa a11ghtl7 ditrerent manner to make it 

DB. TOll~IHS& You would aa7 that there is a ver, clearcut program which should be pursued and which shows good promise. 

20 

lLif' E'. ~A Fl ..... ... • f , 1 ... t , 
REF ID:A66087 

TQP SECRET Al'SA/17 •ar. 1952 

!UBJz Keeting c~ SCAG - 12 •ar. 

- - ~ - - - - ~ - ~ ~ - - - - - - - ~ - ~ - - - ~ ~ ~ - -- - DR. DGSTROJh There 1a • very clear cut program which abowa 

prom1ae, good promise ot aolut1on in a reasonable time--

good promise o~ eucooastul solution. 

DR. TOKPXINS: Some or ua might be loeing"track of tho fact1. 

DR. ENGSTROM: Is his det1n1t1on or the solution aatlafactory? 

You mean recoveiy other than in wiring, day to day? It JOU 

get to it, 7ou can tLll'n it out. 

DR .. PC1l'TER: Qua11t7 there what ycu mean by talking about 

the interim aolut1on rather than the r1nal solution. I am 

aaking the question now. We might extrapolate our expecta- tions here cona1derabl7. 

DR. ENGSTROM& I think it the thing show• hope, it is worth 

pushing bard. 

DR. POTTER: Thero are two ways you can answer that. Can 

7ou get a r1nal aolutlon. a aolut1on that you can oarry on? 

!a there an entering •e~ge to th1s? Can you 1ee an entering 

wedge? 

JUL HOO'AFD t We don't aa1 that 1 t has to be ready currentl7 

on the da7 or two weeks later. 

DH. BNGSTROMs We might go on to the next thing here. 

DR. POT~ER: In the middle ot the second page, in the aeoond 

sentence it aays. "In answer to the above question therefore, 

SCAG 1• unanimous 1n taking a negative position." I don't 

think we ought to answer 1t that way. Ia AFSA carrying 

out all possible atepa? I don't think the7 are. I think 

theJ would be quite trank about admitting 1t. The7 don't 

know whether tho'J are or not. We m1gbt •how them some 

better way to do what the7 aze doing. 

DR. ENGSTROM: Adm. Wanger aa7a that AFSA i• •et up with 

a mission to aolTe thla problem. What should APSA do? 

Should they supplement the present effort? r. it SCAG'• 

op1n1on that what the1 are doing 1• all right? 01ve them 

a commendation and go home. 

DR. VOi HBUMANN: It depend• on what ycu mean by negative. 

DR. CAmllS: You a1·e answering t.he question. 

21 
~ --· . :- 'W'" .... ~ .. ., ,.. .. __ ..... - ........ ,. 

AFSA/17 Kar. 1952 

5UBJ: •eating ot SCAG - 12 Mar. 

----~ -----------~ .... -- ~ - ~ -- -- ~ -- DR. EWOSTROMa Put aomotbing 1n here about the present pr1orit7 ot Alb~trosa in machine and progr&Jn time. 

DR. PC1l'T:m: Dees this mean that I am aaJing 11 !foa? 

DR. EIOSTROI: Something is in order here about the 

priority. a •tatement that we are not giving auff1c1ent 

priority in machine and programming time to this. 

llR. HOWARt: f.e can't expand in dota11 how we wculd allocate 

the machine time. 

IE. BNOST~OM: Here is a promising avenue or approach wh1eh 

depends on nwichine time which we have not had. 

DR. VON VBUllAIH: I don't know. I am aak!ng. There certa1n17 

may be a reason tor giving It a low priority. 

m:t. HOWARL: I have attended all the meetiDB•· I don't 

think the question or the allocation of time has off1o1all7 

been broue;ht to our attention. 

DR. TOMPKIBS: It baa been brought up in the meet1nga. There waa a definite statement by me which Mr. Priedman 

combatted in the meeting with Dr. Gleason. 

IR. EKOSTROll: I think that we must not deter to members 

or the Committee in this report. It we expect to get unanimous agreement on ever1 point which 1a brought up bore, we •111 never get anything done. 

DR. CAIRNS: You made a specific auggeaticn a moment ago and recommended that 25 per cent or the machine time be 

devoted to thia. 

MR. SPEAKMAMi we might point out the priority 1• not 

apparentl7 commensurate with the priorit7, with the 

importance ot Albatross. I don't think it 1a the machine 

we are talking about. 

DR. TOMPKINS: To pourA out a statement like the one JOU 

just made 1a somewhat dangeroua. You are going to have to 

make correct1ona year bJ year. 

DR. CAIRNS: You would have a apec1t'ic category to which 

the time should be devoted. B1 contact with certain 

current trattio that ia essentially solved~ When they use 

the machine, the~ know how to do 1t. 

22 
REF ID:A66087 

T9P S[Cf,.., 1 JFSA/17 llaX:. 1952 

IUBJ& Meeting ot SCJ.G - 12 Jlar • ... .. - ......... --

DR. ~OBE:RTSOI: Sty that it 1a teaa1bl& or 1s reasonable. 

,JJF.. ENGSTROM; Do you havo an7thing 7ou want to question? 

llR. llCPHIRSOH1 Is the Armed Forcea Security Agenc7 carr11ng 

out all poas1ble steps tasard a solution or the Albatross 

problem? The answer is •10". 

DR. EKGST.ROU: Sa7 all practicable atepa. 'l'h.st 1e a good word. Get !t broken down 1nto two questions. 

DJ\. ROBEETSOM: It can't be answered w1th1n .A.FSA 1taelf. 

IE. EIGS'l'l\OM: .Reword the question .. Say "pracU.cablen. 

DR. PO'r'TBR: On page 3, paragraph 2, I am asking the 

quest1on. I am not or1t1c1s1ng an7th1ng here. In tbe laat 

aentenoe it ••1•, 8 It 1a relt that AFSA 1a carrJing cut an e~rective program 1n this d1r•ct1on.• Doee that mean 

within their capab111t1ea or are there an7 lim.itat1on• 

mach1ne-•1se or otherwise? 

DR. DGSTitOM z 

I think the~ 

are o ng a goo • 

DR. POTrlm.i You want to d1st1ngu1ah between doing a good. 

job with what they have or doing a good job w1 th what ~h•J' 

might have. I am not at all sure that the7 have enougb e~u!pment to do a good job. They may be ~ork1ng ver1 

0111gentl1 on intercept 1taelr. Perhap• they don't ha.Ye 

enough •chinos to acrut1y110 tho ·.material or enou·g·····h personnel to get at these_ L Ie tha~ wrong? 

DE. ENGSTR01h The7 are ver1 act1v$ 1n thla t1eld. My 

teeli:ng in putting th1a down waa that l didn't peraonall7 have an7 better augge21t1on on bow to do the thing better 

than the1 are doing 1t. 

DR. POTT'.tm i .lro we going to recommend hero any place that 

ther 1ncreaae the personnel to do th1e\k1nd or job or 

1noroase the number or machines they have o:n this klnd or 

job? EO 3.3(h)(2) 

PL 86-36/50 USC 3605 
, ~ 

I 

REF ID:A66087 

ifOP SeGRliTAFS.l/17 •ar~l952 

8UBJz Meeting or SCAO - 12 Mar. __ ..., _____ ... _ .................. ~-- .. ·------ .... --- lilR. BOWARD: .It one or the earlier meeting• llr. Friedman 

aaid that that waa one ot their weakeat points. that 1t 

would be helpful 1r they could gat people out at the 

1ntarcept stations and keep them there. !bat ia outside 

at AFSA. the augmentation of the tac111t1ea. 

Ill\. KCPHERSOH: It bas to do wt tl:. the problem ot getting •11 the 1nt~rcept trom the atat1ona. 

...... .,.:.. . -. 

llR. BOWAfU>: I have a question. Are they 1n direct control 

or the intercept? 

JIR. llCP!IERSO.I: 'fhey have the ab111 ty to put the a tationa 

where they want to, to do the best job. 

DR. POT~EI<: One thing that I criticize here on the intercept 

•1de 11 the tact that •• don't ••• an7bod7 pa~ng •DJ" 

attention to the a1atemat1c aapecta ot the intercept problem 

because 1 t baa grown up l1k• Topa7. I see that nobodJ baa 

taken that aa a •tud7. 

DR. DOSTROM: llJ' reeling on tho th1ng, Dr. Potter, 1• that 

the report ahoulit somehow concentrate on the Albatross 

problem. The intercept quality or the problem la an all· 

embracing problem. I agree wltb 7ou that there are a lot 

ot thing• that could bo done there to improve upon the 

Albatross problem. Aa ~ar aa our present knowledge 1• 

concerned, I don't think we know. 

IR. MCPRERSOWr Strike out the sentence. "It ia felt that 

APSA ls carrJi-ng out an errectlve program 1D th1a ~1rect1on." 

We are ea71.ng tha~ the, need to 1ncreaee the quantit7 and 

qualit7. 

DR. TJll.PKINS: Ia th.1.a an organizational as well aa a 

technical «aperimont? 

DR. PO'ITJ.:I.: We can and do look at the d!.fterent aspects. You are conoentrat1ng on one. It just happens that I 

picked the intercept field because I know a little bit 

about that rield. That baa nothing to add to the main 

thing. From that atandpo1nt there ma1 be •omatblng that 

they can do about intercept. 

DR. TOMPXIISt I agree with 7ou on that. that it baa nothing 

to do •1th the adm!nietrat1on of the one big bottleneck · 1n intercept operations. thQt 1t would be well to expand them regardless or whether the Arm.7. the Wav1, or the Air 

Force does tha expanding. 

- '-!"':.-
"" ; ,.. ~ I• ...... ' . ' ~ . .. .. ... 

REF ID:A66087 

J<W ~L'..bkt1 

SUBJ: lleeting cf SCAB - 12 llar. 

APSA/17 •er. 1952 

-- ... ----- ..... -... -.............. ._,. _________ ..... - DF.. B?IGSTROM: You think that we ahonld atate that the 

aroaa of the problem concerned here ahould be aubJeot to 

further stwt7. 

DR. POTT'.iRr Thia problem deaervea more dota1led atud7. 

DR. T·1MPKINS 1 Bo apec1t1c and aa1 the "intercept prcblema. 

You can't keep the people on the track. 

DR. E!l'GSTROM: At the bottom on page 2 1t aa7s, "Acqu1s1t1on b7 surrept1t1oua means•. la that atrong enough? 

JIR. MCPBEUSOlh I think we should have aomathlng. 

~! l BlfOSTRf!~ ~~r,.::a: •• are looking tor increased ettort 

DR. !OXPXINS: I would like to point out that •ybe th111 

isn't the right place tor it. I c1on•t think it has come 

up batore SCAO. SCAG haa considered in detail inc~eaaed 

etrort along the mathematical line. It be.a considered it 

1.n detail but •1th lesa coverage or the actual t1el". 

'l'he7 want to g17e increased attention to b1gh speed computing dev!cea, such a• Mr. Shepard'•· They have equipment •nough to till a room. Other people, including me, tend 

to .teol that we ought to go to high speed computlna 

aevices. 

~here 1a a third aapect which we haven't touched on at 

all but which 1s obviously necessary. It 1a a queet1on again at making baatc atud1es on propagat1on1 then opening that up a!XI going to the aourcea or 1n.t'orma,1on and intercept 1on or b; ~Hr·· There 1• VHP and UHF. That ghea the lead toand other 1nrormat1on rrom trarr10 

anal1a1s. / o t em depend on learning a great. deal or 

information, more than •nttody 'knowa about the 1t>nosphore. If 70u take a certain part or the ionosphere. 1ou can do 

•everel things. 

There are implied in this business two tb.tnga. One !a 

11:1Creased attention to analytical methoda, increased 

attention to high-apeed data-handling components. I think 

that both are aore reliable than the third thing. The~ 

need to increase the attention they are paying to such 

things aa the ionosphere. 

EO 3.3(h)(2) 

PL 86-36/50 USC 3605 

26 

.....  __....._ -- - - ....  -- .... 
~· • - • - "'I. .. 

tOP SE:eRifs.1./17 Kar. l Q52 

SUBJ: Meeting or SCAO - 12 Mar. 

• ~ - - - - - - ~ - - ~ - ~ - ~ ~ - ~ - M - ~ - ~ - - ~ - -

They need to give attention to interception. to monitoring the material or enem1ea and potential enem1ea, and to 

1ntcrcept fixed positions more accuratel7 than th•J haTe. 

The1 need to have good trarr1c analJ111•. 

Mfi. BOWARD: That 1• covered under paragraph 2 up here. 

!'he "bu.at" 1a not the main point there. 

DR. EIOS1'f\OM1 fhat might come under the baa!c reaearch kind 

or thing. 

Im. POST: There 1• a time element involved 1n the •uggeet1on here on the 1onoaphere buainesa. It 1• not something that 

we are golng to do toda1 or tomorrow.~ 

ta. BRQSTJ\OK: I think 1t would be under basic research. 

You could make the immediate auggeation, implement 1t, an[J 

get results trom it, plus the baa1c resea~ah program. 

DB. POTTEfi: I'• cculd get result• rather aoon 1t aam.ebodJ' 

gives attention to this whole matter. !here are !onospherie ~ata. 

l.R. POSTs Would 1t be worthwhile to ••1 an,.thing about the 

time element? 

:ot. ENGSTROM: Probabl1. 

Jlf.. POST; Ir it takes five 7eara to do it, where are we? 

DR. TOllPXINS: If •• atart t1ve 7eara trom now, it will 

at111 take five 7eara to do man7 or thes• things. 

llR. POST: It would be nice to give hope ot how long the 

projeot ouaht to tako. 

DR. EKGSTROlh f,.et•a go on to the anal1t1cal method• here. 

m. F.OBE.l\TSO!h You bave the aecur1ty cona1derat1on in all 

ot tbia. There are a lot ot people who don't like to work 

rar the Oovermnen~. 

JIR. llCPB.ERSON: There 1• one general or1t1o1am which I would 

like to la1 on the table. Perhaps llr. Speakman knows the 

background. I have a .te'911ne: that in preaenting our 

recommendations we want to de'Yelop the raot that we teel 

that additional machine development 1• • eubJect ot 
REF ID:A66087 

JQP ~l::CRET APSA/17 Ila~: 1952 

SUBJz aeatina ot SCAO - 12 Mar. - ~ ~ ~ - - - ~ - ~ - - -- - - ~ ~ ~ -- ~ -- ............ - importance in 1ta own aelt •• tar aa 1t applies to cr7pto problems and not loavo it ee a part of the anal7t!aal 

method. I reel that the whole picture aa 1t exists toda7 

i• rapidl7 changing and will change ai111 more. There 

•hould be baa1c research on the machines. 

DR. 'TOllnINS1 Separate it into three paragraphll. One 

paragraph 1a anAl1t1cal methodolog7 and machinery wh1cb 

1s necessary tor carrylne tt out. Another has to do •1th 

the other research aapecta which contribute to the problem.. 

DR. EXOS'l'ROll: Under anal'1t1cal mothod11, I think we ought 

to put Dr. von Beumann'• comments in here. We ought to 

haTe some •t•tement that t9eae auggeat1ons or Tompkins, Hoberts. •on Heumann, P•nt.1!'ed.and othera ahould be tallowed 

more ~1goroualy. Another was that the pr1or1t7 and machine 

time 1• not coneietant with the atatement or the importance 

o.r the Albatross problem or something 11lce that. 

m. TOJIPl.IliS; I would like to mod1.t"J that. It conta~9a 

Penq.red '• name. It would be nice 1.t' we knew what Pen~et! 

•uagestea. I would like to have a atrong 1nd1cat1on ot 

what he aaid 1t we leave 1t in there. 

DR. E•GSTROJh sa1 Roberts and othera. 

Ill. RCJWAJ;Ds We had great hopea here ot aolv1ng II 

The auggeat!on might be mod1r1ed to ••1 "b1 oth.e~". There are operational pecple who aren't matbomat1c1ane 

1n a eenao. 

DR. BNGSTROK: Tho organization here ma.,. be wrong. 

Ir.. Hor:tARD: There are et111 a great many an.al,.tical methods 

applied. You don't have to have a completely divorced 

problem .. 

DR. ENGSTROM: What do you want to sa,., JohnT There are 

1n connection •1th recover7 or 1nformat1on tram 

•l>.ich ab· .. °" prom11e and whioh have .... / not been atud1ed 

additional ottort could be put. 

Boritching 111 one operat1onJn tho reaearcb process. It 

ie the t7po ot approach which »z, .. Shepard feels 1• most 

prom1111ng. EO 3.3(h)(2) 

PL 86-36/50 USC 3605 

27 
~QP SE:efU!T 

APSA/17 •ar. 1952 

SUBJ: Beeting ot SCAG - 12 Mar • ........... _ _. ..... __ ,..._,. ___ ... ___ ...,_ .... .., .... _ ... __ 

MR. MCPH.Ef.SONz I went out a couple or weeks ago and saw 

one man and a bO'J on the job. On the :main problem two or 

tbreo techn1a1ana could be applied to th1• bigh-apeed electronic rotor problem and posaible develov.nent of the 

actual maohine. If we had the job, we waJ.ld expend 

roughl7 a million dollars a year on it. It 1• that 

promising in my opinion. 

llR,. HO'liAF.D: That u•uall7 moans that you know where ,-ou 

stand. It that 1a not our position. then we need to do 

a lot ot analytical work, to g1Te attention to machine 

development. It 1a atill a epl1 t thing here. fhe method 

ot prooeduro here w111 give a lot ot attention to 

a?JalJ't1cal method•, to the importance or mathematical 

methods 1n machine development. I think we can certainly 

recommend a muoh expanded program. 

DB. ERGSTROK: Tb.ere 11 no doubt about it that llr. Shepard'• 

material is very prom1a1ng. We are not doing very much 

about it. 

Jm. HU8ARD: I would get a number ot machines aa deacr!bed 

under Explo1tat1on in the hope that I was going to have to 

h&Te them prett1 quickl7. 

DR. UGS'l'ROAI: I aee that we •111 have to rearrange the 

thlng eomeb.ow hero. 

Ifft. SPBADAJJ: I don• t th1nk that all the cont'!lents will be 

lost. 

11.R. Ha.JAfiD: The thing that I am a little worried about 

here 1• that we don't make anal1tical methods appear to be 

the onlJ method or to be the highest priority method. 

DR. BROSTROM: ~e have just said "Roberta• method~. Tbe7 

oan't get enough time ~n the 1101. 

1111. HOU ARD: That doesn't m.aan th.at they don't run them 

insofar as the aevelopmant program 1s concerned? 

DB. iXGSTROM: The ordor 11 ot no a1gn1t1cance. 

MR. BOWARDz I waa tr~1nr. to be helptul here. 
REF ID:A66087 

~oe sfi.C~'-' - =-: AFSA/17 •ar. 1952 

SUBJ: Meeting or SCA.CJ - 12 Kar. 

--- - - ~ -~ -- ~ ~ ~ --- - ~ -- - - -- ... -- ....... DR. EJ'fOS'l'ROlh Under Exploitation I tried to state that we 

•re interested 1D ew1tch1ng techniques, 1n rotora, an~ 1n 

all the reat or it. 

DR. ROBERTSON: I auggeat that the Chairman be the Chairman 

ot tho group which 1• appointed to do this rev!e!on. 

DR. !NOS'l'ROM: I would rathe~ leave th!a to someone else. 

IR .. lIOWARD: I think you h!lve done a awell job. 

Jill. BPKAKM.A.!h '!ou. be one or the people to work on 1 t. 

llR. MCPBESSOif: I w1ll do whatever J'OU would like. 

IE. ENGSTROM: Row about the material on Adm1n1atrat1on? 

Do you want to put the technical matters tirst 1n this 

repartY 

JIB. XCPB.Er.SOH: I euggoat that betore we get into Adm1n1-

atrat1on we draw up the basic research. Do JOU have any •uggoat!ons on baa!c reaearch or the type that might 

speed up the •JBtem? We m1ght d1Y1de it Off trom the 

operational problem. We want to keep looking tar a new 

aolution to the problem. We want to keep aOm1n1atrat1on 

•eparate .trom baaio research. We ma1 have a ra~!cal t'JP& 

or research or a production t~pe or approach to the problem wb.icb we may take ott on tomorrow. We ma7 take long gambles hoping for unexpected results. 

I think 1t ahould be clear to ua that it ia the Wo. l 

problem. 

DR .. PC1rTEf, c We can ac.1d an indication that 1 t ia the 

reaponsibilit7 ot higher auparv1a1on to be aure that 

reaoarch !a kept awa1 trom development. 

E

I>R. ENGSTROlh How about personnel? It aa7a that a oare.ful., 

revision or peraonnel policy 1• needeO. J 

DR. POTTER; Do•• know what the d1ft!oult1ea are? .J 

DI\. TOMPKI!lSr I would still like to bring up a quest!on. We ma, not be experts in organization. It we limit our 

suggestions on tho organlsational •etup to guarantee aoma 

contlnuit7 or eome cont1nu1ng program on baa1c research, 

we have done about all the t •e a.a a group are probabl'J 

oompetent to do. 

}OP ScGfiEJ 
- ~- _, I ..... .... .... ": I - I 

REF ID:A66087 

tGP SEGREl 

• AFSA/17 Mar. 1952 

SUBJ: Keotlng ot SCAG - 12 Mar. - - ~ - - - - - ~ ~ - - ~ 

DR. POTTERt You oan indicate the d1ffioult1ea they have to 

hurdle in order to pull the group together. 

DR. ll OBERTSOl'h We have aeen the aame problem come up 1n 

another Government organization. In order to get research 

1n line •1th ever7da7 routine, 1an 1 t it true that in order 

to get the money and resources 1t has to be done right at 

the top? The Assistant D1reotor in charge ot research 

should be respona1ble onl7 to ~he Director. He would be 

the fellow who would determine 1t. 

D~. TOMPKINS; Granted that wh•t you sa1 on the thing ia 

true, I am net willing to make tbe same statement. There 

has been so much experience in Government research. I 

would even tend to challenge a little of this, namel~ the 

•utf1c1ency or 7our solution. 

DF.. ROBERTSON: Within the organizationf 

DR. TOKPKINS1 lven at that. You ~t1ll aee what the report 

aaya,who haa the moat power really. ~here 1a no power in 

the Army, Kav7, or Air Force who is responaiblo tor all 

interception. 

DF. FODEFTSOH: You have jumped over the Joint Chiera of Starr here. There !a no sense o~ us trying to do •nJth1ng with that. It it i• something within the organization> it 

is re••onablo to suggest it. 

MR. POSTz Could we •uggest tbllt a c1v111an be set up under 

Gen. Canine to have complete •ay over the research group 

to devote its ont1re ertort to a particular problem without 

anyone telling the group what to do exoept Gen. Canine? 

DR. TOMPKINS: !hat ia on page 5. 

DR. no.BERTSON: It doesn't dor1ne what he is to be concerned 

with. 

llR. KCPHEfiSOB: You ea1 that the present atatua or the 

Director ot APSA leaves much to be dea1red. 

DR. ENGSTROMs The1 came up with tho Brownell Committee. 

The super-structure is rather uncertain. 

Mn. ICPHJ::l\SON: Ia the super-structure uncertainJ 

lOP SECRCT 

---- - - - -- ·- ---==-=========;;;;;;;;;o---liiiiiiiiiililiiiiiiiiiiliiiliiim 
. ' ! ., ,• 

~~-t:A.66087 

AFSA/17 Mar~ 1952 

SUBJ: ' llset.1ng os SCAG - 12 Mar. I 

- ~ - ~ ~ ~ --- --- .. -- --.... - ... .... --------- KR. POST: He haa two separate organizations to answer to, 

AF'SAC and TJSC IB. 

DR. nOBEFTSOB: And the Joint Ch1a1hot Statt. 

DR. TO•PXINS: Be baa no direct authority tor the Ar11r1~ 

Bav7, and Air Farce unlesa the Joint Chiera agree. 

MR. POSl: Some action Must be taken on ~he super-structure 

before an7thing 1• goi~g to come out of it. 

llR. MCPHEFSOH: That 1a not cur problem. 

DR. ENGSTROMz I put in the sentence to indicate that we 

were aware or the problem. Probably it wo11ld be batter 

left out. It 1• clear that SCAG has considered the problem 

ot having a c1v111an in control. It 1• agreed that the need 

tor military leadership 1a thare. 

Dlt. F'OBERTSO!h Say responsibility instead ot leadership. 

llR. POST: Spell out in more ~etail what the civilian ahould 

t'J 0. 

DR. RCl3ERTSONi The need ror m111tar1 rcspona1b111ty 1• 

apparent. 

Dfi. ENGSTROMz Detail the duties or the c1v111an under Gen. 

Canine. Say, nxt is ackno•ledged.• 

MR. P~ST: We should comment right about the details or the 

Civilian Director. 

DR .. !MGSThOJI: Have 1ou an,. 1deaa on wr1 ting the job deacription for this fellow? 

llR. MCPHERSOBa I don't think they ought to be confined to 

research. It you are talking about organization, if that 

1• what 7ou have in mind. we need a m111tar1 man to take 

care or the respons1b111t1ea of the m!litar7. We need a 

technical man to head the whole aotup. You need two d1at1net 

d1v1a1ons. You need one 1nd1vidUal, an Aasiat•n! Director, whoss respona1b1lit1es are pr1r.ar117 research. He doesn't 

try to ride two horses He doea the reaearch end of the 

problem and tries to look ahead. The deYalopment fellow 

31 ]OP CECf\Et 
• 

REF ID:A66087 

1952 

SUBJ: Meeting ot SCAQ • 12 Mar. . ~ ~ ~ - - ~ ~ - - --- ~ ~ -- ~ ~ -- ~ - ~ - -- ~ ~ - looks after the more immediate problems. It 1e still the 

roapons1b111tf 0£ tho top man hero to be •ure that they don't pull al the goo~ men out or research and rush them ove~ into the development area ever7 time a lot or problems 

come along. There le no reason wh7 thoy should have to put research out on the West Coast and development right here. 

DR. TOMPKINS: That isn't a very good solution, it aeema 

to me. Actually I am inclined to think that the same person ought to do acme ot the research and some or the development and some or the operations. That works out tine 1n un1vera1-

ties where the men are te~chers tor awhile and researchers 

tar awhile. Their reasons are organizational reaeona however. 

MR. llOWAl·D: I think it ia barn in a l:llln to do one or the 

other well. 

DR. TOMPXIIS: This may be the only feasible approach. 

DR. ROBEfi'ISOl~: We have tbe Technical Director and the 

Operations Director. The· Oparationa Director could be 

mllitar1, the Technical Director a civilian. You have the 

Bxecutivo orr1cer to han~le aOm1n1•trat1on. He eomoa under 

Oen. Canine. 

DR. TOJIPKIHSt The real 1mportan\ point 1e to have the 

technical rellow in order to keep the rsaearch effort 

rrom being throttled. I would not run it the wa1 Dr. Pot~er 

would run 1 t • 

MF.. POST; Should he have complete author1t7 over everything that goes on under him. What happens to the personnel problem when the military man says he wants thea• thingaf 

bft. ROBEl\TSOlh Vie w1ll have to pin that down. 

llR. POST1 We alao bave a law that says he can't ~o this. 

The problem ia coming up all tbe time with the m111tar~. 

You get a couple ~ good men and the7 are gone. If' this 

is goine to work here. that baa to be stopped • 

ME. MCP!lfu"'RSON: Try to aell him the plan so that 1t will 

be stopped. 

DB. ROB~~SON: Sell it ~o the Director so that it can be 

•toppe"· 

:S2 JOP S[Ckl: ,· 
REF ID:A66087 

TOP SECRl:lAFSA/17 trar. 1952 

• 

SUBJ& Meeting o~ SCAG - 12 Kar. 

-- ~ - - ~ - - -- ~ ~ - ~ - - - - ~ ~ - ~ -- - - - KR. POST: The man should have complete author1t7 over all 

things in bis particular program. 

DR. TOMPKINS: Be haa the power to project the research 

effort. 

DF. POTTEF. i You have two cUv1aiotl3 here which ahould t.ake 

care or those things, whether 7ou have the peraonnel kind 

or problem or whether it is an organ1zat1onal thing. 

t~. ENGSTROM: To expand the rac111t1ea aeems to be the 

general opinion. 

DR. PO'l'TEl\z 'l'hia 1an 1 t as if we were rocomnenOing aome 

aolution ot the Albatross problem. We ought to bavo a1r ccr~1t1on1ng, etc. Shouldn't we •ay that in addition to 

a great need ror m3Ch1ne tac111t1es aome of these other thing~ ought to be done? 

DR. ROBEJ\~SON: I suggest that we draw up some pretty definite reaomment1at1ona in two categories to the Director 

of .AFSA. The others are recommondat1cna that AF~A makes 

concerning things which should be done which are not 

within the power of the Director, some augmentation or 

t'unda and tacil1t1ee. You ought to put the things in 

prett7 definite rec~endat!ona. Take • look a~ 1t. 

There are recommendations where action is required. Put 

them into two categories. 

DR. El'GS'fROKs We aa1 that the amount or mol'ey required by AFSA seems extremel~ modest. That statement 1• relovant. 

~. TOKPKINS1 Are the funds mentioned the total operating 

funds, research and development? 

DF. BWGSTROJI: They are research and develoP~ent tunda. 

MR. SPEAJOIA!i& Tho budget has hung around twelve to thirteen 

m1111on dollars 1n the past three or rour 7ears •e compared with 100 per cant increase in research and development tunde 

for the overall Arnrt and Air Force. 'l'h1s Agenc7 aeema to 

be unique in that research and development runds ha~e not 

expanded. In spite or the tact that the1 have a ver7 

important problem, no additional reaearch is neede~. 

luf !.Pt ..., I= I 
r REF ID:A66087 

" TOP s ECR'WsA/17 ll!lr. 19~2 

SUBJ: Meeting of SCAG - 12 Mar. 

- - -- --- ~ - ~ ~ - :DR. TJKPKINS: That might not be true. 

llR. SPEAJOIA1'r ~!thin the present mone7 that the7 allocatedt 

the general statement is that 1t hasn't been expanded to 

t'bilt extent 1n spite or the tact that they do baYe a very important problem. 

Dfl. TOMPKINS: The overall budget has expanded to the extent 

that 1t 11 frighteningly large. •uch or this has to go into 

effort to returniah their intercept stations. Wise or 

unwise though it may be the net result is that the budget 

tar the year might be on the order of a rew hundred ot 

millions or dollars wh1ch 1• not amall. 

DR. POTTEF..i Wou.ld it atre113then the statement to considel' 

the importance which CIA attaches to th1a problem? 

DR. ROBEF..TSO:Ns That is too weak. 

DR. POTTER: All others. 

XR. POST: Some particular pe1·aon hero. 

DI· .• TOK.PKINSi We trJ to get the beat advice that we can. 

llR. SPEAKMAlh V.ith respect to the paragraph on research and 

development moneJ, it 1a not obvious that ther& haa been an1 

expansion or reasareh and development in the area or Albatross. 

DR. TOMPKINSi That 1a a little dangerous. You want to ••7. 

nw1tb1n the areas wh!oh contribute to the Albatroaa problem." 

IR. SPEAKMAN: There has been expansion 1n the programs which 

are related to Albatross. 

DR. EOB.Ef,TSOH: On the top you talk about procurement. That 

1• not adequately taken caro o~. We ahould aay something with reapect to contracts. 

'MR. SPEAKMAN: We will put something down on that point. 

IR. tNGSTROMt Put nouts1da contracts" here instead or 

"procument".. Emphasize the poss1b111 ty ot engineering 

research contracts. 

-
REF ID:A66087 

TOP ~l::b~~A/17 •sr. l~52 

SUBJ: Meet1ng Of SCAG - 12 MAr. 

DR. POT~: Dack up on th1a. I think that ls an awfully important p1rt o~ our report. I am still not aure that the 

emphaaia waa put on this properl7. One wa7 to sa7 1t 1a 

that we aa a group have attempted to find out how 1mportant this problem ie in relation to other kinds or thtnge. We 

are convinced that the effort which 1a being put on it 1• 

entirely inadequate. Our general conclu•1on 1• that the 

ertort ta ent1rel~ 1na~equate. I would think that could 

be one or the major 1toms in our report. Considering the 

importance or the problem, it ia kind of weak. 

DR. TOMPKINS: Stlll eomebod7 haa to tace the question that wo ne~d to take the mone7 and reallocate it. 

DR. ENGSTROM: There 11 another major problem whiob requires 

an answer. Mr. Speakman asked about it. What about SCAG 

itself? 

llP. SPEAKMAN: There 1• a question in 'flf1 :mind ae to whether 

we want to eontlnue ha~ing these meetings as we have had 

them in the past with toura and lectures b7 the yarioua members ot AFSA. Ir J'OU do, apee1r1cally what aubjeota woulO you like to cover? Ir you don't, do you propose that 

we hold rewer meetings or that we poetpone all meetings unt1l we get a reaction from this report? Perhaps I haven't 

covered all the alternatlvea. 

DR. POT~El': I would ljke to throw in one point. I don't 

think th1a kind of group ought to be a continu,ng gl"oup. I think we ought to come out with aome k1nd ot a report and 

terminate tbe group. '!'hen if there is a real purpose, we 

can atart another kind or group, aay mathematical. 

DR. ROBEr:TSOlh I think we ehould include 1n this thins a 

permanent continuing group. meeting perhapa twice a year with both elements of the people concerned. I think it 1a 

not 4'oa1rable to disband and start over a~ain. 1Ihere 7ou 

have a long process involved again. 

KR. SPEAXXAN: You are thinking cont1nu1ty-w1ae? 

DF.. TOMPKINS: Are you propoa1ng now that we have tln1ahed 

our work? 

1lt. PO'ITER: We were set up to do a certain job here. 

DF. TOMPKINS: We weren't aet up to do the job. 

35 

I lJI' '-\tl.HEI 
,l 

.. :, '\I.~_.,~ .. ~~- ..... 

REF ID:A66087 

TOP SE:CHCT . ) AFSA/17 Mar. 1952 

!UBJr Meeting of SCAO - 12 Kar. - ~ - - - ~ - - ~ - ~ 

_._,.. __ _ ~ ~ - ~ - ~ - -- - - ~ ~ - DR. P01''1'iR: We had a def1n1 te thing to shoot at here. 

DR. TOKPKIHS; We opened the meeting b7 •a'Y'ing that we wanted 

to get some idea of the m1aa1on or SCAG. About the tourth 

meeting we got it. When we got through with Albatroe•, •• 

oGUld do something with Leghorn. The1 can invent bird 

names as taat as the7 can solve them. 

IR .. SPEAlCMAB: Do 1ou want to take up those or not? 

DR. TOMPKINS: You run 1nto ~h• same problem. Somobod7 has 

to take them up. 

11.R. ROWND& We m11de the reco1i;mendat1on•. Why can't tbe7 

take care or the problems in the other setup? The7 can 

•till have m1l1tar7 or outside act1v1t1ea or groups that 

might help. 

DR. ENGSTROM.: Oo the baa1o thing bare I agl'ee with Pr. 

f:obertaon. AFSA felt that there was a group or people in 

the country. We were singled out aa having certain knowledge and background which could contribute to their problems. Th•y set up the mecban11m whereby they could get the people 

to come down and talk about them. Bow you want to set up 

a mechanism az:\O assign Albatross aa the major problem. That was Just the r1rat assignment to this group or people. It would seem that we could all go home and start over 

again. 

tR. CA~NS: I think the group ought to be continued. Por 

one thing we menti~n travel aa a minor aspect. The time and 

effort that baa gobe Into clearing and br1er1ng us on all 

of these things i• quite an investment. 

llR. SP.6AKMAlf: It la a permanent investment. I have talked 

•1th Capt. Holtw!ck out thero. He intimated that the7 were 

more impatient about getting aometh1~ out ot SCAG than the 

SCAG DEmbers were themselves. We don t share 1n 1t. We thin~ thflt it 1e a long-r•nge program. that it takes a long time to &duoate these people,and that we should be very 

pat1•nt with this aort of thing. I am not ao aura that I 

ahara w1th him in that. I would like to ask Dr. Shannon 

to speak with raferenoe to the mathematical aspects of 

thi•• to tell us what he thinks of hie owq exper1once aa 

a member ot SCAG. Where can we make a ma3or oontr1but1on? 

Can you visualize a potential contribution ror ua 1n the 

future? 

36 
REF ID:A66087 --......e--<~ffF~~~..-::i.,.t-= -fUta S :ii(CI 

A.PSA/17 M~r. 1952 

SUBJ: Xeet1ng ot SCAG - 12 Mar. 

~ - ~ ---- ~ - ~ . -- -- ~ --- -- - ~ -- - ~ . - ~ 

DR. SBABHOH; I don't reall7 get the problem at all. I aon't 

think the other members do either. We get a reeling about 

the problem when we are here and target 1t when we go back. 

We aren 1 t here long enough to make a contribution. If 

SCAQ does continue m7 reeling 1• that the meetings should be 

or a 41.fterent aort. We •houldn't come down here to hear a 

couple ot lectures arA then go back. We •hould perhaps ha~e 

rewer but longer meetings. Perhaps we could come down 

1nd1Yiduall7 tor an extended period or time, tr that 1a at 

all possible. I think that it would be tough for aome of 

us to do that. It would be dtrr1cult for me to take a month ~t. I don't think we can do an,-thing ver7 conatruct1•e in 

leas time. 

llF.. SPEAKMANi Meetinza are not too appropriate. 

DR. SHANNON: You bave to get ln and work with the people 

d1reotlJ'. 

Mn. SPEAltKANi It 1a a full-time job tor ma7be a week or two 

weeks. 

m. FOBEil'l'SOH: It is a framework in wh1ch to fit the thing. Sometimes 1ou have a apeo1r1c Job and work rar a longer period 

of time. We ma~e one n:ajor contribution aa an adv1aor1 boqrd. 

DR. Par'TEh: As the SCAG group was gotten together bore, it 

was to look at AFSA. We tr1e~ to state it in the words or 

CIA and others that we are looking at AFSA and tryinc to 

f1r.d out whether A.FSA 11 doing a decent job. To that extent 

I think we can make a major contribution aa a group. There 

would be a lot or thing• overcome by that conclua1on. low 

tirat I aa1 that 1t 1• a very important job. I wouldn't 

think or wasting an1 time or errort here getting tbo people 

together anO getting all tho cloarancea. There 1an't an7 

necoss1ty ror wasting son:e or these clearances. Some or 

the people here can carry on tho work and implement some 

at the acore ot things we have 1nd1cated ahould be done. 

D1'. EOBEI~TSON: SCA0 1 a framework ,gives something to hang the aot1'¥1ty on. 

DR. POT'l'ERs I don't know •bather we should call 1t SCAG or 

aomethlng else. 

TOP SECRET 
I 

I 

"' ...C. ':,. - .,_,._...__. - .C.. -111. ,. • • --...., r -

REF ID:A66087 

TOP SECRET 

'FSA/17 llar. 1952 

STJBJ: Meeting of ::CAG - 12 •ar. 

llR. KCPBEfSOH: Eaaent!ally we can present the report and 

ea, to Gen. Canine, Hwe feel that the pr!mary purpose for 

which thia group ;may bave been gotten together baa been 

aerved. If Jou rind 1t necesaar1 to call upon us ror an~ 

future •ork which you would want done. you could call on 

one part or portion ot the group or on the group as a 

whole. We would be willing to plan to meet on a ver7 1nrrequent basis. n 

Df·. ENGSTROM: You would be d1eband1ng the thing if 7ou did 

that. I don't think the 1nit1at1ve there comee from AFSA 

to call in special groupa. 

llR. PCST: Is there anJ'bod1 here •ho wants to apend a private aeaalon, let's sa7 from a week to a month? 

MR. ICPH.ERSOI: The scr1 tcbing business 1s neglected. 

DR. ENGSTROM: I think the impetus must come trom SCAG 

1 t.aelt. 

MR. POOT: You might be able to squeeze out a week or two 

aom.o time .. 

DR. SHAWNOH; I don't think a week would be auf!1c1ent. 

MR. PJSTz Bow about a month? I 

DB. SHA!UION: It oan ba looked into certalnl7. I don't !eel 

that an individual can do very much. It would take ever7 

one ot ua an:,wa7 to reallJ get into anything goo4'. I f"eel 

that the problem 1a important enough that we should all tr7 

to do it. 

JIR. POST1 You would not be unwilling to consider such a 

thing? 

MR. BOW~Dz You all .t'eel that way. I think any one 1nd1v1dual 

would bate to put bimselr up aa being ao important that he 

should up and voluntarily take a month or two monthe out ot 

hia lite. The other thing le th~t I think when it comes to 

AFSA'• 1nLoreet in this. you can't come 1n from the outa!de 

and tell h1m that he ought to be glad he baa us working rar 

b1m. Yi& .are ready to work ror him. You won't get the 

cooperetion. You won'~ ~et the drive. It we are eaaent1all7 

outsiders going to APSA, perhaps the cr1t1cal paat ot the 

report becomes CIA'a, to tell them they are not going a 

vary gooa Job. I can't see how we can do •er} much. 

--!8 luP !SECRET 
... a-..;. - .a; ... 

AFSA/17 Kar. 1952 

SUBJ: •eoting or SCAQ - 12 Har. 

- - ~ - - ~ - ~ - ~ ~ - -- - ~ - ~ - - . ~ - - ~ - . ~ - - llR. 8PEAlCMAN1 I am supplying what fir. Friedman and Gen. 

Canine have •aid. The7 are greatly disappointed that aome 

membora of SCAG on an 1nd1v1dual and voluntary bas1a haven't 

apent .full time ror a week ar two reall7 digging into tb!a 

thing. I am not quite clear aa to what SCAG'a reapons1b111t1ea 

are in connection with such action• on the part or tho 

1nd1v1duala here. 

In rrry opinion we can advise AFSA that such things be done 

by 1nd1v1duals in ~ particular area and the problem 1• 

subject to aolut1on if we bad dome outside people come in. 

Then I think it 1a up to SCAG to take the initiative and 

aay, "Will 'JOU, Mr. Jones, came down to 11t 1n on tb1a 

problem?" SCAB would be enabled to solve it with certain 

people. We think 7ou are the people •ho can do lt. I don't 

think we ehould point a ringer at someone and ••7 that he 

haen 1 t done the job because the people haven't apent full 

time on it. 

DR. TOMPKIN3: We can point a ringer at AFSA 1naotar as the7 

haven't welcomed the people who have volunteered to come 

down. I bave spelled out to them 1nformqt1on which went 

into oona1derable detail giving them a reasonable p~ogram 

b'J which the7 could get this Cfoua. The1 have called me 

.from Cal1torn1a. You oan't commute between Wasbinp.ton and 

California. 

llr. Friedman makes that etatemeut out 0£ one side of his 

mouth. Out 0£ the other aide he has no constructive 

examples or tha problems which he can otter aa au1table 

information. He cannot tell ua where such problems ~xist. 

He jwst hasn't round them. 

MR. SPEAKMAN& It 1• in order for SCAG to point out such p~oblems. 

DR. POl'TER: When 1t comes to criticizing an authoritJ', I 

think it 1• dangerous. 1 

llR. SPEAKKAKi I want to avoid an1 restrictive comments trom 

SCAO saying tbat this is where JOU need a~d1t1onal help. 

JU\. Brn1ARD: We are sitting ae a board of experts. If 

aomobody has a private axe to grind and goes sround and 

beats them on tho head and makes them do it, that ia a 

ver1 or1t1cal th1ng. 

;or sh.I\-. 

i59 
REF ID:A66087 

=r=er &f:fof<i r · ' 

: APSA/17 Mar. 1952 

8UBJz Meeting or SCAG - 12 Mar. 

~ ~ - - ~ -- -- - ~ - - - - - ~ - - -- ~ ~ ~ - - MR. SPEAXMABa I wonder 1r we should come back hore and . postpone our visit to f..rlington Hall. 

Dr .• FOBEJ\TSONz Wo could clar1.f"'y what our future role is. 

T.he moating adjourned for lunch rrom 1130 to 12~0. 

DR. VOB WSUMANN: I would 11ke to ask a question. I am 

sorry that I couldn't come to the last conference. I saw 

Jackson. Be told me about one group or problems. I wanted 

to ask bow controvoraial those problems are. One had to 

ao With clear text traffic, intercept clear text. With 

the production problem you have quite a bit or divers1t~. 

Where you have a problem or two million measagoa thrown 

at 7ou. you can't be expected to list any or those three. 

It is conr.e1vablo that dev1cea 11ke the literal devicea 

might have aome real advantage there. I want to ask 1r 

this 1• in AFSA'• province. 

t~. fOBEl\TSON: APSA'• or CIA'e. 

DR. VON HEUMANN: Rot AF3A'a. 

tE. F..OI3Ef.TSOJf1 Both. 

DR. EIQSTROJh We suggested to CIA that when we t!niahed 

the machine th&J' should take a look at it. 

DR. VON liEUVANN: It 1a reasonable. 

' llR. HOWAFDr I think that 

I don•t know where 1t 1•. 

for s machine ~hieh could 

activity .. 

CIA has tbe •et1v1ty ~oing on. 

I know that IBM has been searching be tied in with that type o~ 

IR. JCPli~"'RSOlt There are such devices under development. There 1a something or that sort out. 

DE. VON NEUhlANN: We may bo ovorstat1ng the problem five 

timos or understating 1t five times. 

m. ftOD:!il\TSOll: 'When I sa.id CIA, I was thinking of the material 

we rish out ot it. There 1e a mechanism tor fishing 1t out. 

:00. VON NEUMANN: Fishing it out 1a what I mean. 

DR. ~ODEI"TSON: It is AFSA and not CIA. 

40 
REF ID:A66087 

JOP 8eCRET AFSA/l' Jar. 1952 

SUBJ: 

__ Keating ot SCAG - 12 Mar. ._.., ...... ______ _ ~ - - - - - ~ - - - - - DR. VON NEUKANN: I think the problem is or general importance~ 

DR. fOBERTSON: That is an AFSA problem. 

DR. VON NEUKANN: Should we mention 1tt 

MR. HOWARD: It is one spec1t1c problem to which the Committee 

might give its attention. They stirred 1t up and gave attention to it and then dropped it. People like you and I 

should be optimistic about attacking the basic problem, 

not the mechanization ot it. 

DR. F OBEE.TSO.N: We will find out this afternoon or tomorrow 

.from those people what has to be Clone. 

MR. SPEAKMAN: We ean as~ Gen. Canine this afternoon. 

MR. BONAFD: I am not so sure that it isn't a CIA problem. 

DR. ROBERTSON: It depends on where you put down the requirements. That 1a what you have to look for. 

MR. HO'liAFD: The problem is divided. You have the basic 

private intelligence. Suppose you have a great mass or 

data coming in? If' you know what you are looking tor• then 

it is easier. Suppose you have good eY1dence that the 

Russians are building up strength on such and such? Then 

you start looking for that. You can find a lot of evidence, 

perhaps. Suppose you don't know that they are bu1ld1ng up 

strength there? You want a BJStem that will suggest that 

to you in the first place. There may be a great maas of' 

information to analyze rrom 1n~1rect sources. From shipments 

or medical supplies in that area, you arrive at that conclusion. It is quite simple in looking for intelligence information. When it comes to the business or looking for 

"busts", that is different. 

1ffi. JC PHERSON: I think that perhaps the two are the same. 

We might apply it in two different areas. We might f1eh it 

out to develop the trend within the so-called collection 

informa t1on. 

DR. ENGSTROM: The problem was studied quite a bit in the 

chemical field, per ae. 

DR. TOMPKINS: It is a question of wh.llt per cent 1a going to 

do what and what will be read by the experts and classified. 

It is quite a problem that AFSA is racea with. 

41 
REF ID:A66087 

.• ~ Tur SECfl'"lf..~A/17 llar. -l 052 

BUBJ: Meeting or SCAG - 12 llar. ~ - ~ ~ - ~ - ~ - - - ~ ~ -- - ~ - ~ ~ - ~ - - - . - ~ ~ 

MR. KCPBEFSOlh That presupposes 1n1 t1al an&l"Jsia which 1• 

somewhat hard to do in thia. 

MR. HOWAFDi It presupposes that 7ou have an awtull: tough 

problem on 7our hand•. 

:tR • .BN'GSTROK: What do you think about that? You ate the 

exports on thia general aubject ot information~ 

DR. SHA!fHOH: I reel that it would be quite a project to 

even start tb1nk1ne about how to sort out the 1ntormat1on 

mechanicall7 with a machine wh1ch will go over all the 

messages to determine it there la a trend in there. It 

aounda like a possible thing, but a thing which 1• not go1ng 

to be done witb.1n ten years. 

lfi. HOWAr.D: It waa kicked around in the past. People got 

interested in what th97 called the clinical approach. The7 

take ever7 message and write the completed additives to that 

:mssaage. 

DB. ENGSTEOM: This 1s essentially directed at cipher text. 

With every cipher text message they have a aet ot atat1at1ca 

that could be computed rrom Teletype d1rectl7 • .Prom the 

atat1st1ca they might be able to go to the Bagelln SJ11tem 

or the Enigma system. 

llR. H071ARD: You could conce1Ye a machine instead of' a 

&)atem. The machine could examine every message that comes 

into AFSA in plain text to see it there was an7th1ng wb1ch 

should be looked into further. 

IF. !PEAltllABs I would auggeat that we complete thie paper. 

We can add on what Dr. von leumann baa brought up here. 

DF.. ENGSTROM: It reall~ 1nd1catea an extenalon ot SCAG a1 

a bod7. CertainlJ we can 1 t make any der1n1t1ve statement 

about a program or a broad nature b7 tomorrow afternoon. 

DR .. ROBERTSON: Tomorrow arternoon we may hear aometh1ng from them out there. It oantt wait until tomorrow afternoon 

to see Oen. Canine. 

llR. SPEADAH z l can talk w1 th him this atternoon., 

l UP .~F( .RE I 
REF ID:A66087 

TOP St:CREJ 

AFSA/17 Mar. 1952 

SUBJ; Meeting ot 3CAQ - 12 Jla.r. 

- - ~ - ~ ~ -- ~ -- - - - ~ - - --- - ~ - - ~ - - - ~ - DR. POTTER: It would make a beaut1tul project to pull awa7 

completely the unclaaa1r1ed material and ~urn 1t over to a 

reae11roh group. 

DR. BNGSTROJI: It might be valuable to go through the 

methods intelligence section at AFSA. They do have certain 

procedures now tor sOl"tlng out tnt'ormation on ao and ao. 

IR. HOWARD& I don't know whether they have done an7th1ng 

more. The7 used to put 1n!'ormation on ditto and send it 

to th1rt1, rort7, or r1rt7 places b7 name and location. 

14:.. ENGSTROM: There were key aubjecta. On the subject 

or the SCAG thins here ••••• 

DR. ROBKRTSOH1 It ehould be tairly concrete, something to 

shoot at. We think SCAO can be extremely uae.rul to AFSA 

aa an advisory group to the Director. That presupposes 

.r1rst that the Direotor wants advice. Aaaum1ng that he 

doesn't methods and •tepa would have to be taken to find 

out what he really does want. I think SCAG could very well 

cont1nuo aa a permanent adv1sor1 bod7 with fixed meetings. 

I would aa7 have two or three at the most a year. Ir the 

D1rector1il.o1ehearted1ly ravora having auch a group, that it 

ahould have a problem to look into. You could re.fer an1th1ng 

to the group for advice. The group to be most uaetul most 

ot necessity be able to 1n1t1ate subjects that 1t tb1nka 

it ahould look 1nto.. In order to oarr7 out any dof1n1 te 

and conatruetlve suggeat1one on apec1t1o 11nea, individual 

panel• could be set up just as Ad Hoc groups or the permanent panel. They could take the material and put their time on 

1t aa they were able to. You could have a mathematical 

panel. It would be a continuing panel and would look at 

the mathematical aapeota of the problem. They aould actuall7 

come down here and work ror a period with the people at 

AFSA. With that kind ot a group 1 t would be extremely useful. •e could look into these problems and not Just 

••Y, nI will volunteer as an individual to come ~awn here." 

Jre would come ts own under the auspi cea or thia advisory group 

to the D1reotar. 

DR. ENGSTROU: Pine. 

MR. SPEAK.MAI: At the present time we havo 1dent1t1ed ever7one 

here without exception aa a member ot SCAO. Do JOU wish to 

on.large that to include membership tram AFSA? We have a 

representative o.r CIA. 
REF ID:A66087 

lOP ~EGRET I . . AFSA 17 Mer. 1Q52 

8UBJ; Moe ting of SCAQ - 12 Jlar. 

-- ~ - - - --- - ~ - ~ - ~ - - ~ . - ~ - ~ - - - - ~ ~ - llR. SPEAKMAN: SCAG in many 1i&'JB •bould be advfr11or7 t;o the 

General, the DirectOl' or AFSA. For that reaaon 1t should be 

atr1ctly a c1•111an group without membership rrom any other 

agency. 

DR. EOBU\'l'SOH': It should be individual :member•hlp an~ not 

group membership. 'rhere ia no reason why there ahouldn' t 

be ott!cara on SCAG. 

llR. SPEADAll: Would )'OU: expect to have two members from 

AFSA1 

DR. EOBEJiTSOI: I would not expect to have member• or APSA 

on it at all. 

llR. SPEAKMAN: I am uncertain at the present time aa to 

whether there is need ror Capt. Harper to be a member or 

not. 

JlR. ROBERTSON: I tb1nk they should not be. 

DR. Pot"l'Ef.1 Here 1• a group that 1• going to tell the 

Director mat ought to be done. Be certa1n17 doean' t wnt 

to take the people who are unaer him and put them on the 

g?Joup. 

DR. P.OBKRTSOS: ~or does he want representatives from CIA 

or the RDB telling b1m what to do. 

llR. Ha.tAfiD: This is a workable m1ae1on. You know where J'OU 

atand and what you are trying to do. Whether there ta •till nee~ to continue reporting to EDB or CIA, I don't know. 

JIF.. SPBADAI: We will suggest to him tomorrow atterncon 

that we think SCAG 1a or should be a group adviaor7 to him 

am' ahould not include membership from AFSA or CIA aa •uch. 

JIR. HOWAFD: Can we racommena that; he aet up a thing like 

that? 

DR. POTtER: I th1nk there are thJnga which SCAG could be 

doing to advise the Directar, that we ought to be kept on 

as a continuous organ1£at1on here. There 11 no rea•on wh7 

that shouldn't be brought to his attention. 

44 
::-· ... 1 .4_. ii':,. "rJ.·"'~·- , ' •' .......... ~I ... ,,,~~ .. .- :;, •>I ~.r °' ~ •-;--.. I 0 .. /' v-~~-, '• ...... .. ... r ... - ,,,_•I:!.?-- ?..c • r .v, .. ::t~-t.-F.~(~ .. l'jilJI!:.? .. ( • ll;i.. • -t"":-• .. - I ...... r- - " ..... I .-.... ,.. '.. ..) .. .. 

.1.,· .... ... ~ ... :::ii:· I """.c:. .. ~"' .. 3 .""f ~-~"' t . I:;~ -~1.." I ' •• "fl}iL -,-.... : :.; ~'.Ji:.- _· _ _:.,....___:: -u.·~ ..... ...:.·.I'-:.. :-; ...... Y.. ·- ·--· _ .. _ ·--- -· ----...:...REF' n-:-K6'6U .... -..-.. .......... _ -· .. -~··-··--~ ~ ·--r·.- -·- ;OP SECftEf 

AFSA/17 •~r. 1952 

SUBJ: Meeting or SCAO - 12 Mar • .............. _. .... ___ --- ........ _ .............. _________ _ 

DR. ROBF.RTSOH: I didn't mean to put it ln the ~ormal paper. 

I meant to eouna out the Director about it. We w111 not 

put tt 1n here. ProbablJ 7ou will have a chance to talk with 

Oen. Canine beforehand. We will have to talk about the other 

members for SCAO, about their clearance. Most or those people 1hould add to the SCAG group. I think it desirable tor SCAG 

to take other pao~le on an Ad Hoc basia, not ae members or 

SCAG but ae members or the Panela,to got a particular job 

aone. We have never been able to tap other resources. 

Dft. DGSTROM: I am wondering whether tho oomment on SCAG 

shouldn't be crossed out or this report. 

DR. PO!'l'ZP.: I don't think that 1s a smart thing to do until 

•• hava a better notion ot •here we want to go from here. 

Im. SPEAKMAN: What kin~ or question can we pose to GenCan1neT 

DR. I\OB!mTSOU: Aak h1m what he thinks the original purpose 

and present runotlon ot SCAG is anO eee whether he th1nke the 

things we have outlined are some.thing wbich he wants. The 

obarter ia too flexible. 

llh. SPEAKMAN: It 1e not too clear about the Panel structure. 

DR. ENQSTROU1 Bow about travel order•• money• and things like that? Mr. Speakman bas mechaniama tor that. l don't 

know whether AF~A haa or not. 

!IP. .. SPEAKMAH; We would have to identi.fy the particular joba 

'tlb.1ch have to be done before we could aa1 that we need tb1a 

panel or that panel. 

DR. ROBERTSON: I don't want to go into all the details here. 

Thero are seYeral things outlined here. 

llR. SPBAJSllAI: There are certain jobs to be done. We should 

establish panels to do them. 

DE. EOBEE.'l"SO:N: We ought to make a recommendation wbereb7 

SCAG would work up to !a capac1t7 • 

.un. SPBAl'Of.A?I: There ia dif.t'icult7 in getting people to 

sperd more than half a da7 or a day hers in Washington. 

45 
REF I~Q'87 ~~·_.., ... _ 

AFSA/17 Mar. 1952 

SUBJ: Keot1ng or SCAO - 12 Kar• 

DR. ROBERTSON: I1' thia had been organized along these 11nea, 

the individuals would have been down here b,- now Instead ot 

individuals being called for help and havi~ them more or 

less wait rar u.s to volunteer. The7 say that any or us 

can came down anti apen<I as much time as we can.. It SC.AG 

thinks there 1a eomething which ahould be looked into in 

connection with the use or a machine, an Ad Hoo Panel should 

be appointed. They could spend two or throe da,-a or a week 

looking at the thing. 

MR. HOWARD:. It 1a a prett7 clear-cut problem aa to what the 

Ad Hoc Panela are supposed to do. fiiere la the organizational 

11 terature. 

llR. KCPHEfiSOlh You ba'9e to have a job for them. 

MR. SPEAKMAN: You would have a commitment from t.he panel 

members that they •111 apend time on it. 

DR. POTTER; SCAG, for example. 1a going to come out •1th 

reconmendatlons which I •••ume will bo rather apecit1c before the~ are through. At that time 1t seems to me RDB oould go 

to Gen. Canine and say, •1t has been conc1uded that thia and 

this ought to be done. How do ~ou reel about keeping SCAG 

on the job here to put its etrort on this or that?" It will 

not Dllke it too definite, a cont1nu1ng thing, but it will at 

least carry out the kind or rocornmendat!on• that have been 

mado. 

MR. SPBAKMAM: We can put the queat1on to Gen. canine and get 

bis support. Wo don't want to jump !nto this field until he 

aays that the th1fl8& should be done. We can point out to 

h1m the need for Panela to do the job. 

DP. KHGSTROMi Thora are two problems to consider 1f •• 

start out on an Ad Hoo street. One 1s the acr1tch1ng business of Mr. Shepard's which seems to be somewhat lagging 

ror support. The other !a the mathematical material. Doaa 

SCAG reel that it wants to recommen~ panels in those two 

areas? 

DR. ROBERTSOH1 Bo, I don't. 

MR. SPBAK'MANz Are there an7 more conclus1obi to put down? 

We have tried to word those ao that anyone who read& thi• 

will end up w1 th the dat1n1 te impression that SC.A.CJ hal!I come 

·out w1 th one, two, or three conclus1on•. 

46 
REF ID:A66087 

--19P bLGi\\-r .. 

AFSA/17 Mar. 1952 

SUBJ: Meeting of SCAG - 12 •ar. 

DR. EN'GSTROK1 Tbe second point le that 1n view or the 

importance or the problem 1t dooa aeem to ua that APSA abould 

•Pend the ettort required. 

MR. SPEAltMAB: AFSA 1a not expending tbetrtort that 1t should 

or that it ia inautrielent etrort. 

Im. ENGSTROM: Add1t1onal ettort would produce ••••• 

DR. POTTER: Much more errort could be juat1f1ed. 

DR. ENGSTROK: The next point 1a that we teol CIA ought to 

make mora artort to steal some of the material. Ia that a 

major po1ntf 

DR. TOMPKINS: It would be nice it the7 stole some. 

tll. ROBERTSON: Ott the record. 

DR. ERGSTfiOK: The CIA people 1nd1eate that they are doing 

everything posa1ble. 

llE. POST: Tba~ 1e the only answer you w1ll ever get out or 

them. 

DR. TOKPKIR'S: We don't have any means to ••7 that that 1a 

a correct staiatent or an 1noorreat statement on their part. 

MR. POST1 I have been arter them time without number 1n 

t1ve and a halr-1eara with G-2. I have aaked CIA what the7 

were Oo1ng. 

DR. ROBERTSON: lfaJ'be the7 want to keep G-2 from rinding out. 

llR. POST1 I asked Kr. Chadwell last week and be said thit 

they were do1ng evor~tb1ng the7 could. 

DR. ROBERTSON: '!'hey ought to give that 1ntormat1on in detail. 

DR. POTTER: It would be reasonable to ••Y th1e 1~ we can, 

nwe are uncertain whether enough ertort 1• being expended on 

this direct approach.n We are not ur71ng to get the answer. 

We are bringing 1t out 1nto tho open. 

DR. EHGSTROll1 We should ••1 acme thing to the etrect that 

the greatest promise tor a quick solution or Albatross lies 

1n the d1reot approach. 

Jor '"iLGI\;._, 
- , • • I' , .- ... 

REF ID:A66087 

l~s\P')':i'f ·11ar. 1952 

SUBJz Meeting or SCAO - 12 Mar • .. _ ...... _ ....... ___ ,....., __ ....,.., _____ ..,. ____ _,,. ...... 

tfi. 1'0MPXINSa Row about using the pbraee "boat hope"Y 

MR. •CPHERSOW: It gives the biggest lift qutckl7. 

DR. TOKPKIHSz Is there an~ reaa1b111ty in cona1der1ng thia? 

Ir there is not. I am not in position to make that atatement. 

m. VON ltEUKANlh 1fe need a 11 ttle more knowledge. 

DR. POTTER s tie don' 1i know anything. 

DP.. TOMPKINS: Can't we atate that? 

II\ • CA~ Jf8 : I might go .f'urther and tr1 to steal 1 t mys elt. 

lllR. !PEADAR: We are confused aa to whether you would 

actually require tb& steps 'JOU would have to go through to 

acquire tho machine. ~a ~on't want to jump to conclue1ons. 

If wo had a machine, then our solution would be Much faster 

than it we bad to go through this process. 

DR. POTTJil\: We are looking for 1ntormat1on in other 

directions. 

· DR • T OllPXINS: 

aay much more. 

IE. ENGSTROM: 

d1l' eot method. 

1 don't think we have enough information to 

I don't know what we b.avo to do to get one. 

Tho beat hope for a quick solution 1• 1n the 

Wh. H·1WAfDr There waa one t.h1ng brougH; up 1n the committee 

when you weren't there. They wondered just how much attention 

•nd errort was being given to penetration ot people coming ac!"'osa·the border. We are not tr71ng to steal the machine 

but to get evidence or what 1t oons1ata or. Russia must 

have one way or the other and one may get acroaa. 

JIR. POST: The object 1s to find that man if he comes across. 

It would be better to find the man inside and get him to 

come across. The Intelligence machine is waiting ror people 

to come In. We are not. 

llP.. MCPHEiiSOlh Are we? 

MR. POST: I don't think anJbodJ' 1• kidding himaelt on that 

point becauao or security. 
.... ---- -- - REF ID:A66087 

lOP SE:,. . AFSA/17 Mgr. 1952 

SUB.Ta Meeting ot SCAG - 12 •ar. 

- - ~ --- ~ - ~ - ~ - -- -- - - ~ - - ~ - ~ - - ~ - - - DR. ENGSTROM: I know ot several cases 1n which the~ have 

actually ••••• 

llR. Pt'JSTi We are not doing an-7th1ng to encourage that t7pe 

or person. 

DR. ROBER TS Olli We are. 

JrR. aCPH.ra\SOR: 'l'here !a a question there aa to whether your 

statement ahould go into the major awmnar~. 

DR. EBGSTRCY~: Th.a best hope tor quick solution lie• 1n 

the direct approach. 

DR. TOMPKINS: I am incompetent to make any such statement. 

£h. VON HEUMAlill: Anyone who la abaolutel~ opposed ought to go along 1n the interest of the rtvo who do agree. 

IE. SPEAKMAN: I would suggest that an1 members who reel 

that they cannot aubacribe to suah a atatement aa it ia 

worded submit another statement and sign 1t. 

DR. EOBm:iTSOHz I think if it is perr9ctl1 worded, the 

othor people sbould agree to 1t. 

DR. ENGSTROMs Don't 7ou think it 18 of importance to Gen. 

Canine aa well as to CIA? 

DR. CAlRHS: I am 1n ravor or leaving it out. 

MR. POST: It provides a needle. 

Im. IE'PRERSO.tf: Roally it there is any question. I am in 

ravor or leaving 1 t out. 

DR. VON 1'EUJIA1fH1 It does give the implication that we have 

considered the problem and channels tor aolv!ng it. We 

think the tac111t1es at AFSA are so poor th~t we m1ght ae 

well try to steal a machine and take the risk or compromising 

the whole project. 

DR. RO~TSON: It doesn't require that. 

llR. KCPBEJiSON: A lot or work could be saved 1r they did not 

have to duplicate the tedhn!cal work, 1r they could start 

w1th tbe atructure and go trom that to a more advanced 

pos1t1on to the solution. It cuts out a lot or the background 

1t0rk that bas to be dona on the m3themat1cal method aa it 

etands now. 

lt''' I f 

49 
... £ .. ~ ... , ,....,", .. ,. .. ~ .... .. :... ~4o .., '" I'"'; I I ~ 9J. .. ~ ... ,,. .(-·..... ..,., .... "' 

REF ID: AA§,q§ J'.i<d ~""'· ---

APSA/17 •ar. 1952 

.SUBJi Meeting or SCAO - 12 Mar. 

DR. TOIPltIHSa M7 poa1t1on is the same. You make an obvious 

d1et1not1on but we are absolutelJ unable to estimate the 

cost or bu11ng thi•. I am. 

DF.. EHOSTROM: '!'here 1• one other point that I think 1• worth~ ot br1~ up and that 1s that one must take a rather 

long-range point ot view with these probl91!.1•· The quickest aolut1on ot that might mean stopping the mathematical 

approach and all the rest, which would be a catastrophe •• 

DR. TOJIPKIWSz I don't think there 1• an1 great ~anger. 

W1th that word or advice. Gen. Canine baa h1a officer in 

charge who selects the material an,.how. 

Dtt~ ROBERTSON: He ia reapon11ble tor putting out the requ1roments. 

Mn. HOWAliDt All we are doing is advia1ng Gen. Canine that 

we think he is right in keeping pressure on CIA .. 

DF. TOMPltIRS1 Let'• make that statement and convinoe CIA 

to.tell us something. Thi• is 1t. 

llR. HOWAP.D1 I .t'eel that inasmuch aa we work for AFS.A we 

ought to support h1m 1n that contention. 

DR. EIGSTROJ.I: 'Ihe best hope ror a quick aolut1on appears 

to be in the direct approach. However. thia ahould in no 

wa7 C1m1n1ah ettart on the theoretical solution and other 

approaches. 

mt. SPEAXM.AN1 I would rather not sa7 "beat". Sa7 "•notherw. 

8a7 "one bop& tor earlier solution•. 

llP. Jr;PJf.ERS05z The solution might be advanced quite a 

distance by the direct approach. 

DR. TOJIPKI1FJS1 Leave out the word •hope" and the word "beet". 

'llR. SPEAJOIAl1 The solution would ba exped1tea, would be 

appreciably a~vanaed b7 the direct approach. 

IJi. lt!TGSTRO¥: I have two or three more things here. One 

1• the Roberta' buainesa. 

DR. VON lCBU.llAUlr I don't quite understand about the computing 

or these. I think it 1• in order to make recommendations 

about it. We teel that the Roberts' approach and hi• 

lOP ~.f50 
8UBJ: Jleeting ot SCAQ - 12 Mar. 

AFSA/17 Jlar. 1952 

EO 3.3(h)(2) 

PL 86-36/50 USC 3605 

- -. - - -- - - -- --- -- --- - ---- ~ - -- --- Oevelopments are also one ot tho most hope.tu! mathematical 

approaches to the problem. We reel that the 1101 program justifies considerably more computing time. 

DE. ARGSTROM: le that specific? 

DR. 'lO.MPKIJlS: The time that Dr. Cairns has assigned' to these 

things 1a not consistent with the evaluation ot 1mportanoe 

we have given to the problem. 

DB.. ENOSTROll: How about acr1 tch1ng and lfOllAD? 

E. HCfiARD: There is an extrapolation 1n paragraph 2,I l D~. EXOSTROM: By methods auggeated by Ir. Shepard. 

DR. voa NEUllAKBi Electronic rotors. 

Jlt. •CPHERSONz There are two recommen0at1ona. The next to 

come should be greater eft'ort in machine deYelopment, high- .t'requenc~ :machine development, directed at a apeclt!c tJPe 

ot problem. !he other major point 1• the recogn1t1on ot' 

the need tor baa1c research to be constituted aeparatel7. It is to be a separate part of the tunctiona ot APSA. The7 

do the rosearch job. That is a part or their total bu~get • . DR. ENOSTROJI: Having a civilian director, that 1a a major 

point. 

DR. POTTER: TbeJ have that now. The)' havo Dr. !'.ullback who 

111 the man in charge ~ research. 

DR. EBGSTROKc Ro haa taken Capt. Harper'• job aa Director. 

DR. ROBEl\TSOR: I£ that has been accomplished, I don't think 

we ought to put 1t in here. We can comment on 1t. To whom 

does he report then? 

DR. ENGSTROM: Re reports to Adm. Wenger. Adm. Wenger reparta 

to Gen. Canine. 

BR. BOWARD: What 1a the attitude on the part of top management of the thing? Ia there a specitic reapons1b111t1 to aee that 

this thing gets done? 

DR. POTTm: The important thing 1a that we need somebod7 

over research who ha• the prime respons1b111t7 to report d1rectl7 to the head or both development and research. 

That ie being taken care ot b7 Dr. Kullbaok now. ,I don't 

think that w111 help Yer7 much, 

) t! ._, ......... . 

61 
.... , ...... , .... 

l;O~ SE• p;,,;,1 _.1 

: • APSA/17 llar. 1952 

8UBJz •eting ot ~-CAG - 12 liar. 

~ - ~ ~ - ~ - ~ -- - ~ ~ - - ~ - - --- - -- -- ~ - - ~ 

Jlt. S PEADAlh We are talking about titles, are we not? 

We are aaJing that there ahould be • c1"t'111an director 1n 

charge or •11 research. I don't think that end• there. 

DR. POTTER: A civilian director who has aole reaponaib111t7 

tor research. There 1• a c1v111an director there who ha• 

charge ot research. He alao baa charge or development. The whole point !a that we don't think an1 one dirsotor 

can pertorm both ot those runct!ona e1multaneou11l7. 

JIR. SPEADANr Does Lr. ltullbaok have power OV6l" h1• auborCl1na tea? 

DR. POT~ER: I don't know. 

J1R. SPEADl.Alh Do the m111 tary people report to Dr. Kullbaok? 

DR. POTTER r lie is the Technical Director. Be waa not in 

charge. I d1dn 1t know that part or it had been changed. 

DR. TOllPKINS: Has he relieved Capt. Harper? 

DR. XMGSTROM: Capt. Harper relieve~ Capt. Bolt•1ck recently. 

Dr. Kullbaok haa the apace which waa tilled by Capt. Harper. 

rR. POTTEI\: There in more than one technical directorship. 

DR. DGSTROll: Instead or them aa71ng that we recommend 

tbat AP$A should have a civilian d1rect0l' ot researoh. we 

•hould state that the o1v111•n director ot research abould 

have authorit7 ••••• 

JIR. HOWARD: For development and ope~at1ona to a aerta1n 

ex.tent. Development 1• tied in ao much more closelJ •1th 

operatlena. 

IP.. ENGSTRON1 In the euggeet1ona we have made, we have 

been talking about the top man. We would have two men under 

him. one the director o~ research and the other the director 

ot development. 

DR. TOJIPKDiS: They would make recommendation• to Dr. 

Xullback and not to the Director? 

DR. Par~: fibat 111 happening there, it I judge their 

organization oorrectl~, 1• that the1 are trying to carr1 

on two tunct1ona. research and development~ They are 

52 
REF ID:A66087 

(OP SLt..1<c J 

AFSA/17 Mar. 1952 

SUBJ: Meeting or SCAG - 12 Mar. 

-- - ~ - ~ - - - - - - - ~ ~ -- --. - - -- ~ - - - ~ - oarry1ng those on in a one-headed organization. 

You can go down the line here as tar as you please and 7ou 

will rind groups doing work on both reee3rch and development. 

What 7ou need to do 1s to split those respons1b111tes pretty close to the top. 

In other words, have a direotor ot research with a reasonably a1sed group under him and have a director or da~elopment. 

Have th8I!l aurr1c1ent1, separate BO that the director ot 

research 1•n't constantly raced with the problem or tr71ng 

to decide whether to do a development job or whether a 

rasearoh job ought to be done f1rst. You need a two-headea 

organ1zat1on with a director or research and a director ot 

development. They report directly to Gen. Canine. 

IR. SPEAKMAN: How much of the allocated research would 

7ou want left in the hands or a civilian? 

DR. POTTER: It ought to be in the hands of a technical 

director. 

IR. llCPHEFSO?h Dr. Itullback is the Director ot Research and 

t9velopment. He should be best f"1tted ~or one or the 

other. 

Dn. TOMPKINS: There were two points made here on wht ch I 

so aloflG wholeheartedil~. One ia that there should be a 

civilian, a competent, continuing, and tecbnicall7 able 

civilian. I don't care whether he is • civilian or not 

who reports at tho highest level and who has authorlt7 

over research and development and whose position is to 

protect research among other things. 

A second thing is that research and development abould be 

•plit 1nuned1atel1 below tbts person. There should be two 

people reporting to him. 

Ky personal reeling on the second is that it 7ou get a 

competent person in the top job, he should be given the 

authorit7 to decide where and when the split should be 

made. 

DR. POTTER1 The tallow at the top here le qulte •1111pathetic taward research. He cannot go down into all the little 

irojects that are going on in that organization and sa~, 

Look here, boys. You must shift your 1ntereet ovor on 

research here. You can only do so much on development.• 

j"OP btc1u .... 

... 

---- ---------
REF ID:A66087 

=tOP tsLct<c1 _ 

. AFSA/17 Mar. 1952 

SUBJ: Meeting ot SCAG - 12 Mar. - ...... - - - ~ --- ~ - ~ ---- - MP.. HOWARD; It Bee.ma to :me that one ot the generaL.tunct1ons 

that we have experienced in adm1n1ster1ng reae~roh ~nd 

development was being in a position to advise fn th1• 

regard. I think we can recommend that. Ka7be we don't 

have one per cent agro8!llent on this. 

LR. EllOSTR0M: Those are the tacts that we are tr)'ing to 

get at. 

DR. 'l'OllP!tINS: We have one hundred per cant agreement on 

that. 

JIR. JICPHF.HS0N: 'fhe top man bas a much bigger job. He has 

to get top morale 1n the organ1zst1on. 

DF.. BHGS'l'ROU: Sa)' something like thi•, "r esoarch baa been 

aaOl7 neglected b7 AFSA. Fesearch 1• one or the basic 

problem.a. n 

MR. HOW.Af:D: You agree wholehearted1ly with what we have 

been aa71ng ao far? 

DR. TOllPKillS; I certainly agree that ever7th1ng possible ahould be done to support expanded research at AFSA. I 

agree and I think ever7bod7 1n this room agrees that one 

way or doing itt at least it would be the best ~troke that 

Wd can recammeno would be to pick out aa Dr. Robertaon 

•uggeated. a c1v111an w1th authority io promote and protect 

research. 

The onl7 disagreement I have 1a with how tar we should go down into tho techn1cal1t1ea or the organization. 

Mn. JllCPllm\SON: We can make the auggeat1on. He doean't haye 

to accept it. 

DR. TOJIPKINS: You can make the euggest!on. 

DR. VON N.EUMAN!fr You are proposing that we should have a 

lllB.n in charge or research and research only who would 

report to the Director? 

DR. ElfGSTROMi I think that 1a right. The Director ot 

Research should have hia attanticn downward rather than upwar~. The civilian who has aome understanding or the 

problem abould be the one to battle •1th the upward echelons. I agree with this thing as 1ou have it now. 

64 
REF~~ .. 

AFSA/17 Mar. 1952 

SUB.T: Kee ting ot SCAO - 12 Mar. 

~ ~ --- ~ ~ --- - ~ ~ ~ ~ - - - ~ - - - - - ~ - ~ - ~ 

DR. FoOBEl\TSON: I am not quite eatiaried with this. It 

aeems to me that research should be completely •eparated from.development and oporat1ona with personnel orr1c1all7 

aea!gned who could not be 1nrr1nged upon by development 

a°' opera ti ona. 

DR. ENGSTROll: The first thing we need to achieve this end 

ia a c1v111an technical director with surticlent authority 

to aee that this policy 1s not infringed upon. 

JIR. MOPHERSOli: I still think we ought to aa7 that one or 

the most applicable things 1• to set up a separate director 

or research who 1• not infringed upon in h1a day to da7 

probleme b7 development ror a apec1f1c purpose or b7 

operations. 

DR. POI'TER: I don't know or any industrial solution that 

baa worked. 

DE. ROBEf.'l'SON: Dr. Engstrom will thrash it out and get together a reasonable wording of the thing. 

DI\. ENGS'l'iiOM: Mr. KcPherson wea tho one who brought it up. 

We aald basic research. Shotll3 we be apec1t1c here and 

denote wh7 implementation through Project ~AK haa not 

taken placef 

DR. ~ONPXINS: I don't think 1t has been summarily d1am1aaed. 

DR. ilGSTROM: Emphasize bas1c reaeerch. Set up the 

projeot with a corporation which has the time. personnel, 

and rac1lit1es to carr7 it out. That baa to be implemented. 

JIR. SPEAK'MAlh We can go on recorcS. 

ltii. BOWARD: It 1• ent1rel~ different tr1ing to find a 

contractor to supplement the basic research. 

MR. SPEAKMAN: iihether he 1nplements it or not. he puts 

it outsi<Se or inside. 

Dl\. T~MPKIRS: Right now this has been brought up. There 

have been explicit auggeat!ons which seem to me to be 

realistic as to how the7 could get same work done ~airly eoon by contract with Remington Rand or aome other 

aimilar outfit. The spec!tic question 1a. "Should that; 

be included?" M7 v1ewa on this are well known. 

°(OP Sb::iHl::i 

55 
.. 

.. • 

• 1, 

.. .... .. - .. --Ao'-....-................ 

REF ID:A66087 

JOF '5t.~Kt.i 

AFSA/17 Mar. 1952 

SUBJ; Keo ting or SCAQ - 12 Mar. 

- -- - ~ - - --- - - ~ ~ - -- - ~ -- ~ - ~ - - - - - -- DR. CAIRNS: We might include 1t in general terms. I don't 

think we should mention the R~ Corporation by name. liA•"» 

DR. EWGS'l'RJM: Further effort ought to be made to enlist 

outside contractora. 

llR. HOWARD: That applies to other th1nga. 

KR. SPEAXYAN: Ident1fJ it w1th baa1c research. 

DR. ROBF.R'l'SO.lh Probabl7 we ahould mention them aeparately. 

DR. ENOSTROM: Outside contractors ahould be used aa muoh 

as pos e!ble. 

DR. TOMPKINS: ! would 11ko to bring up one other point. 

You can throw it out in th1rt7 aeconda. There 1a a 

tremendous amount of compartmentat!on in AFSA tor security 

reasons which makes tt 1mposa1ble tor a genius to tlnd a 

probleo which he think• he can aolve. To work on 1t 1• 

next to impossible. We have observed that from time to 

time. I ha~e from time to t1me recommended against 1ome 

tJPea or compartmentat1on. I think the best wa7 to get 

research done 1a to get a problem. get the people who are 

to work on 1t, and let them begin whittling away on each 

other in a fairly relaxed atmosphere. 

Im. :ENGSTROM: 'l'ha t brings up a larger 1eaue.. There 1e 

no doubt that the security pol1c1ea and security procedures 

in AFSA are strangulating the efforts in man, respects. 

KR • .iiCPHERSOR: We ought to pasa that on. It la outside 

er our province at the moment. If we can go along thi• 

line. research can certainly be improved. There can be 

tree interchange between research groups or 1nformat1on. 

or problems. It we can aek that 1nrormat1on 1n that area 

be essentially free, we will have a start. 

DR. TOMPKINS: Other phases of research and development 

gat throttled by not being able to transrer information. 

DR. BNGST!i.OY: That covers 1t aa far aa I am concerned. 

Leave out any comments on SCAG. 

am. POST: Funds are ment!oned as a recommendation. 

Mr.. SPEABllAN: I would like to get an idea from the membes 

ae to what we should dieouaa w1th Oen. Canine before the 

meeting at 14~0. What should we put to him tn the way ot 

56 
=iCfOP SU:hi#sA/l 7 Kar: 1952 

SUBJ: Meatina or SCAG - 12 Jlar. 

~ . -- -- - ~ - ~ - ~ - - - ~ - - - - - ~ -- ~ --- - queat!ons? What new jobs does he want SCAG to undertake? 

That is what we want to aak him. 

DR. POTTER: As a result or the session that we have had 

toda1,1t looks to us aa if SCAG !a to come out with aomo 

epec1r1c recommendation along this and that line. Can 

you ask him how he would reel about cont1nu1ng the function ~ SCAO in an advisory capac1t7? 

Mi. S~EAKMAN1 I would like to make it more apec1t1c. to 

apec1ry what we expect from SC4Q. Possibl1 1~ we come up with conclusions tomorrow afternoon. we will have our next 

meeting in a month tr om now or two months tror:J now. i'hen 

there will be another agenda to come out. When are we 

to come down am go through? 

MR. MOPHEffSOlf: I would like to suggest, that unlesa he 

requests otherwise, wo don't meet again tor e1x montha. 

Im. SPEAKM.Alf: The members feel they have discharged the 

primary re11pona1b111t1 tar which the7 •&re appoint~. Thie 

report ties it up. 

DR. ROBERTSO!l: Than 7ou ma7 w1ah to have a group take the 

reoo:mnendationa here. You ma7 w1ah to set up an adviaor7 

group to meet. Than 7ou can waab 7our hands or it. 

DF. ENGST~OM: We aan eay, "The SCAG group 1a available 

to Gen. Canine and •111 meet upon h1a request tor eona1derat1on ot apoclt!c problems which he might bave in the 

future. n 

DR. FOBm:l'l'S'JI: The function or the group ahould go beyond 

tba t. He ahould have a g:roup with b1m. a c ont1nu1ng group, that reels free to initiate top1ca tar advice to him. 

MR. JICPHERSOlh The areas ,-ou are thinking ot are the areaa 

outside or real intelligence. It you knew about them ahead 

ct time, you could be use.tu.l to him. The one question 1• 

to find out rrom Oen. Canine whether ho would like that 

•ti¥t or advice. It ie apparent from the informal d1scuss1on 

bore that they would be used aa a contlnuir.Jg advisory group and would have one, two, or three nestines • 7emr. 

DR. TOMPKilf31 Why not state that in the report? 

67 
REF ID:A66087 

Tel"' ~tcKc.1 

• . J.'PSA/17 ~r. 1952 

SUBJ: •eet1ng of SCAG - 12 Mar. 

- - - ~ ~ - - - - ~ - - . ~ - . - - - ~ - - ~ - -- -- ~ - DR. ROBERTSON: There m1ght be an a~vantage 1n stating it 

1n the report. There might be an advantage 1n recommending th!lt he have an advisory grotlp. I am not aay1?18 SCAG. 

DF... Poo:'TER: It gets back to the thing ot aay1ng that we 

recol':'L'ttend that 7ou have an advisory group. Well. here we 

are. 

MR. SPEAltMAlh I can eay that to him. 

Jm. MCPHERSON: Cortainly the ons t~ing that we are trying 

to do 1• to give the ball back to him. 

MR. SPEAKllAN1 We can sa7 to him, •scAG believes theJ can 

be useful to the Director or AFSA along these lines. 

Put it right to him. Ask him whether he wants them to 

continue. 

JIP... POST: You won•t be able to get action out of him. 

DR. TOYPKI~"S: It seems to be a proper statement tor SCAG 

to make. SCAG teel that 1t w111 bave not future usetulnoaa 

except posa1bl1 as auch a ~oup. 

DR. VON :NEUNA?U': It waa proposed earlier b7 someone that 

we have discharged our functions. that we have advised 

Gen. Canino to have an adv1s~ group. 

KR. SP!!AKM~N: It would give htm the 1mpress1on that SCAG 

cone1del"s that it haa discharged one or !ta primary :functions b7 this repol't. 

DR. ROBF.I.TSON: It ought to be 1n here as a part ot the 

report. 

DR. POTTERz I think the adviaor1 group ought to have 

runct1ona essentiall~ d1~rerant than the ru.nctlons ot 

8CAG. They ought to be broader. The emphaa1a 1• going to 

change on this. Juet offhand it aeems to me that it 1• 

a a!tfe~t kind ~ preacrTpt1on all the wa7 through • 

.MR. SPEAKMAN: ~hen we could expect him to outline it. 

We cculd put the question bluntl7. The SCAO members feel 

that their job la beyond what they have put in this report. 

What reason do we have to meet again~ 

58 )Y~) ~L- .•. I 
REF ID:A66087 

~· AFSA/17 Kar. 1952 

SUBJ: 8eet1ng ot SCAG - 12 Mar. 

~ . ~ - - ---- - ~ ~ . - - - - ~ --- ---- - ~ - - ~ 

DR. TOKPKI.JfS 1 We have given them much lesa than the7 

expected to get or than I hoped to give them b7 th1a 

report. 

MR. MCPJiERSl)N: I have a •1m1lar reeling • . DR. TOMPKINSz It we have discharged the functions to the 

best of our ab111t7, then 'I think we have been a failure. 

If that 1e what we have done, tbe Committee probably had 

the wrong constitution. That wasn't what I intended to do. 

DR. CAJJ\715 z I have the tee11ng m:yaelt that I for one have 

merely ac~u1ret! a fairly auperricial unaeratam11ng of aome 

of" these mathematical things that are involved and by 

further work might be able to help out still more in the 

event that anything should be said in the report about 

ICAG 1tselt. Let's confeaa. Wo ehould make some statement 

in here about SCAQ. 

DR. VOi WEUMAllf: I originally understood that thla was 

meant aa a continuing £l'Oup. The purpose in the lite or 

th!a group was to make technical recommendations about 

llbatroes. Haa something cbangftd in 1t? 

DR. EllOSTROMz I think not. 'I'he Albatross problem was 

the first assignment given to this group. AFSA ha• other 

aes1gnnients 1n mind. 

JIR. MCPI{[t~SON: We agree on the fact 't,hat it la intended 

to be a continuing affair. I reel that our part at this 

time 1a e1.mpl1 to got a reaffirmation of interest 1D the 

cont1nuat·on or this group. a better charter, and a clearer 

picture from him ot what areas he reels we can help him 1n • 

.Dl1. ENGS'l:ROK: We can talk about 1 t with Gen. Canine. Leave 

it out of this report. 

DR. CAIRRS: You can sa1 that the Committee has done it• 

work and asks thst it be discharged. 

Dn. ENGS'!ROU: Thia report has to be 1n tomorrow afternoon. 

!t is certainly not a Yer7 elegant language job. Does the 

SCAG group r~el that perhaps th1s should be a tentative 

repOl."t and that a sub-committee should dress 1t up? Do 

you think it 1a good enough the wa7 it isf 

llR. MCPHABSOU: You have to have the report promptl7. 
REF ID:A66087 . 

---~--

.. 

SUBJ: aeet1ng ot SCAG ... 12 Kar. 

--- ~ . - ~ - ~ - - - - ~ - - - - - - ~ - ~ ~ - - ~ - ~ ~ 

E.. SPEADAli 1 We have had a request from Gen. Canine that 

we give him our conments on this. 

l:lfi. F.OBERTSOI: Do you think we should discuss the report 

•1th hlmf 

KR .. SPBADAH: Do 7ou want me to express 1l!J reeling with 

reference to the next meeting? 

DR •. ROBERTSON: I think that should be tapped out intormall~ 

with bim. 

MR. SP.E.AKMAN: The consensus 1a that you don't think you •hould meet tor 111.x montba? Suppose you have the same 

t7pe ot agenda aa you have here? Are we going to speak tar 

all the member a? 

D.R. ROBERTSOB: Could aometh1ng be done tp get an Ad Hoc 

Panel to come here 1 n the summer tor a week or two o:r 

• ometbing like that? 

JIR. F.<JfAP.D1 That again 1• where he baa the ball. We could 

suggest items to him ror that. 

llR. SPEADA!lr You don't need a ate~r1ng group or a planning 

aroup to plan a program or meetings? 

DB.. RO~TSON: We could decide what we consider the more 

important aapecta. 

llR. H~~ARD: It has to be done •1th their entbua1aat1c aupport. 

DR. hOBERTSOI: It ought to be on aome other aapecta. SCAG 

•hould have an Ad Hoo Paziel come in for awhile. 

Ill. T·')JIPl:INS: There ia a whole creation or problellll!I. You 

can replace the permutation matricea. Ycu can have nonnegative elem'1nta and with thia ,.ar1•ble instead or the 

discreet sot 7ou bad beroro, 1ou can et1ll aolve your 

problem •• 

DR. ROBERTSOH: Discuss that with the Research Bureau. 

DR. TOllPKI?lS: It 1s _problema of th! a class that I bad in 

mind. 

DR. ROBERTSOH: Take 1t up with the Re1earoh Director. 

60 ifOP SECRET 

... 
•

d l"WiP"'"'"!i!:-•~.;-__ ~ --- __,. ~ ~ - ---·· ...... ~...... - - • - =ar -~- - - -~ -=-- ... """--' __ -J. • Hr . 

__ ~"'"J:'" - -- - REF ID: A660=8~--:-:---=- -~-=-=-----· · 

::--_ -~ .. ..- -- - 1i"iP SF• -- · _ ·t-=- - ·-- ___ __:__ . - -J~-~--- - -- • ;; ll'SA/l' -~_!1· -~92 

SU:SJ1 •eating ot SCAG - 12 Mar • 

.... -- - ... - -- .... -..... - ..... --.... - -- --.. -. - .... - DR. TOMPKIBSz With the reaearch computing racil1t1es it 

could be done &l'l'J'Where. It could be done down 1n South 

Africa. 

MR. SPEAKMAN: I Oo not see an7 need to ••• Gen. Canine be~ore 14ZO tomorrow. 

llR. IlOIARDi You are golng to do it b? outside help or 

by the Panela? When you start a project with a commercial 

organization, there 1a a lot or spade work to tb~nk out 

before you get approval. 

llft. XCPHERSOlf: The question to be aaked t'rom our aide 

1a whether ar not they want a group or people down here 

this spring or aummor. 

IR. HCWAF.D: If th•t 1• done, ma7be we would have aome 

thought• to propose on how that group •hould be formed. 

The meeting a~journed at approximatel7 1~45. 

TOP 5Ei_.:: .. 

61