REF ID:A729l6 

,; I •I 

,v 

Interviel:JS SigC Hist Div uith Col. W!v~· Friedman, Washington, Do C. 

16 February 1961 

Colonel Friedman did not think Myer so big a genius in code/ciphers • • • 

his cipher disc,, or rather the outcome or it that was long used ln the Army 

w.s very simple tvo~isc Job with reversed alphabets. • • 

Mauborgne did not deserve much credit for M-94. This was really a 

strip system, using ml!!.ximum m.anber or alphabets,, bent round into disc form, 

see Friedman's article in Signal CorJ>! Bulletin Nos. 98 and 99, late 1937. 

Was an adaptation of Jei'ferson•s system. Friedman instituted a search tor 

a model of the Jefferson device,, both at Monticello and elset=rhere, but 

never succeeded in finding one. 

Fabyan spent his money freely, ms never recognized in any ~iay, a 

cl"llllby deals The government never gives anybody an;ythlng.Hith reference to 

his own worlt1no"consolation prize," but outright purchase bf.his renouned 

pa.tent rights. 

Fayban paid for hotel in nearby town where students studied0 They ~ere 

getting pay for quarters, yet Fabyan pa.id it all himself. Classes vere larger 

than 50. Last class was 75; photo ls a crypto, faces straight ahead is dash, faces turned left is do~ spells out (?) Knowledge is Pm:rer. o • • • 

After WW I AG refused Friedman commission for bad heart, so SigC hired 

him as civiJian. Friedmn •s pre-wr teaching at Monmouth "sunk in." Ha.d 

officers years later say this to him. Won hostility of other instructors 

because students concentrated on code cipher stuff to exclusion of other 

courses. 

Hagelin box not secure, if on request !or repeat,, a second sending at 

same setting were sent. Germans read 90 percent of messages in Hagelin. 

Friedman recommended "no" on its use, but Akin overruled him so that troops might have a device. Americans want gadgets such as this. Actually hand 

systems better, and both Germans and British got along well thru the 1i1ar 

with hand systems (in the field) where ve used the Hagelin. Friedman has 

on door 11Quiet11 placard of Kreuger, SVedish crypto eJq>ert, and Hagelin 

related. Hlgelin wasn•t standardized so early as I indicated, possibly not 

till 1940. 

Army used AT&T type tty cipher machines. Printing telegrap~ to be 

distinguished from Sigaba which used rotors and produced a literal tape, that 

ls a tape with letters on it, which radio lll!Utr men had to convert to Morse code. 

"Has extremely secure, • • • danger of Colmar incident,,(Friedman calls it a 

compromise, though enemy did not know vhat it ms), ws not that Gernans 

might read our stuff, which they still couldn't even with the machine, but 

that they might copy it and then ve could not read their stuff ••• 

@'pp roved for Release by NSA on 05-16-2014 pursuantto E .0. 1352a " 

I , 
REF ID:A72916 

t1as the ra.vy EC1'~. 

frinting telegraF~ or rather I guess the job which punched holes for TfY 

was SigCum and Sigtot, both on line. SlgCum printing of on and off lines not 

as secure, maybe one hundredth as secure as Sigaba but was used in theaters. 

But long overseas hops the more securet Slgtot was best. It used one-time 

tape. Had to have same tape at both IC!atr and rcvr. Tape moved along in 

symcrho with tty. If gaps occurred because of f'ading, machines at both ends 

staid sycrho ard proceeded o. k. Meant an enormous amount of tape production and distribution, billions of tapes. One whole factory'1iurning them 

out. 

Stresses &&ivy cooperation greatly ••• a case ~Ith cipher machine 

where failure to cooperate would have den/led both ser~ices the unspea:kable 

value of a secure ~.achine system • • • • 

Felt CSigOs after r:auborgne weak men, Sig Intell lost because of weakness, 

and fear. SigC officers afraid after PH - though this was not fault of SigC, 

it might get blame. Carter Clark an ambitious man. Navy keeps its sig intell 

lr1here it belongs, inseparatable from sig opns, not in navy intelligence. 

No intercept material in pre--...ra.r days. Nauborgne "f:fhen on lriest coast 

himself set up a rcvr and sat up late at nite getting material for SIS. 2d 

Sig Co, detachments, as 5th station in Hawaii, got very little. Local CG 

autonmous, would knock out such idiocies "never hec:.:-d of It, pfft out." 

Ridiculous secrecy ahich makes Amer military look like fools, when much 

is already in the public domain. Sam Morison trying to shake loose Yarnemoto 

story w.s denied by CG ASA, or Navy, even by Sec Navy •••• yet tis in _ public domain. Ir-~, ,._,J_ I ~I.II.!/ - J 

'-"",,, I.I -- -, v- 1-.u~;oj 'k We..1.f tv.fr Jff1 

• 

DR. GEORGE RAYNOR THOMPSON 

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