REF ID:A72912 

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@'pp roved for Release by NSA on 05-16-2014 pursuantto E .0. 1352a 
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Inter~ie-:r Dr. Du~ T~z:~1'!,:f1~nal C:>rps Section, Officef of ~·: Military ~istory, ana~pte_n .re-er-ck Re1nst~in, Signal Corps Rese. ~ith Mr. William F. Fri~dmanJ and Captain Mark Rhoads, Signal 

C..>rps Reserve, 

ITednesday, 17 May 1950, 1300 hours. 

Mr. Friedman spoke first of the recent passage of the 

. ' Forrestal security bill, which imposes such stringent penalties , . . that we wondered whether we ought to leave then and there~ wibhout 

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going beyond the op~nlng pleasantries. However, I stated 

1rhat .I had said _lllafm.~= ~ .. other occaaio~a ~f talking:, 

with him and Captain Rhoads: that I bad no wish to waste either 

his time or mine on topics which would be likely to remain under, 

security classification, because the Historz is a document 0 

designed for publication. On that basis, we talked. At the 

ead of an hour and a half, I returned to the use I would make 

of the Signal Corps intelligence story, and explained that I 

, wanted to have Mr. Friedman see whatever I wrote o~ the subj9ct 

even before it goes to review here in the Office of Military History. 

I think he was relieved, and I know I shall be when I get it out of 

the way, for I am determined to forego the entire subje~t rather 

than risk the faintest contention of having revealed ~ny ;ecr~ta • 

. The reai problem lies not there, but in the use ot materials 

in the public domain, like the 39-volume series of Pearl Harbor . reports, which make Intelligence·unhappy.· Regarding them, Intelligen 

has persuaded itself th~t it nobody mentions them again, _nobody will 

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think of them again., I don't think tbal the opposite Intelligencd is """' . - . .. \ '\ . ~uite so thi~kh~aded as tp forget un19ss we remind. 

In any event, this was the substance of our talk: 

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REF ID:A72912 , ~ ' 

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Interview with W.F. Friedman, 17 May 1950 

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When P'r1ec1men andA 1d. fe went to work for Signal Corpe in 1921 it waa oft 

a contraa! besie·ror e!.1' month•. At end ot second wi-x montha &be droppecl'ou.t . and he became~· a oi71tl Sanlce imploJ8e. 11' 1922 tlie C,octe and Cipher Unit, OCSlgOa 

had one clerk besldee P'rtedl'ft8n. · , · ' - . . ~.eginniu 1n 1921 he -1av• a two-week courm ,at Monmouth tor ottic81'e. The 

next year 'it 'wae ·made a replar courae ot the of'tlcer curriculum and continue" to 

be ottered till about 1951. ... r • ~ 

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"'riedm!ln 1a other dutiea in '11e f'irst. yeara consisted of t7ortdni out field. 

codes, 1m staff' codee, J1I code end the WD Telenpph Code. 'le aleo started certsift 

cryptanalytic studie• and laid down methods end principles. Re even wrote technical 

papers. 

. Not until about 19'°' when the new duties devolved on the SO, did eignal 

Intellivence Section acquire additional civilian person'19l •. ~our ~en came in as 

crypto.vraphic assistents vie t'ivi_l ~ervica ~ Thay hsve bean ri th 51,!!'nel "'orpa 

ever since. 

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Until t.be w"'° shadows began i:o dar.ken in 19,8-9 the Sig Intell Sect re"l"ai. ned 

e SDB 11 or,sni?.ation. Treininp: a nucle1'1! ,o:t expert civilisn cryptanalysts and code 

and cipher compilers waa its main object. 9 ortunately. begimini: in the tall 

of' 1951 (") !:!ignal Corpe of'f'icera beJ!'!lft to receiiie traininv in the Section. 'l'hey' 

were expected to learn cryptographic technlauea and become prof'icJBnt in superv!eintr code and cip"'er VIDrk. By December, 19lt;l. f!bout a dozen of'ficara hsd been • 

,.tven this trainint ·but on Pearl Harbor day leBB than halt were en,raged tu ~a 

cryptographic work. 

"' ' 1 Another 'source of otticer personnel f'or cryptographic wor~&was the Japanee 

language of'tlcera aeslgned to Sig Intell Sect after tour ot dut.yr.11 Japm. Thia 

began 1>7 the late Thirties but never involved many of'ticare. · · "- ' , 

As a result of the limited and unlimited ema~gell'\ciee , Sig Intel 1 Seo 

began to build up BO that bJ' 7 1'ec 41 there were about '5-4o civtUene end three 

officers ln the newly createa sig Int.ell se..rvice. (Arlington Hell site waa 

chosen because lt as ~~qut the rip:'ht Size tho~b it should have beai ,some 4o 

miles from Washington. ~Ruflding.e bEIL!'un about 1959.) T,,e Servloe waa ec ti vet al 

in 1958 tor. aaministratlve reasons: eas ler to l."9t funds (• ). 

Gen. Meu~orgne supportfd ... cr~toFrapbi ouite st.ron,17. Reason 11b7 he or~erecl 'Friedman to 00!\Centrste O~ c;oaee in 19'9 111 S t,h&t, u;s. bad alwap entioit8te4. 

that its en91111' lay to the, ,a.,d could depead on th!t Britilh to handle Germany 

and Italy. There-wee an understsn din~ ·bat~n us and O.B. about this di vi Ed. on .ot 

uork. Vauborf!'ne evidently was a bit ifOrried about Japan by 19'1- enough eo to 

order a concerted Btteck on the Jap codes and ciphers. · • I 

."- .· ., - - . Cryptanalyaia·. was not an orr.a'l ized, re,,ular activitJ' o'f Sig Int.ell Seo 

in 19201 a and early 19,0'a. ·T11e chiet olastacle !JBS ebortege ot f'o~eigu crypt_o-

,rrama. The firat monitoring stat ion :f"or, this purpose conetrueted tt ''onmouth 

-(when!) and t'b.en transferred in" tum to Ft. Hancock and Ft.(!) Hunt. ilior anotber 

. 'tb1n;;;:-·i~ei-1r~il _li'ttle encoura~nent wl~in the so .. or n-2 to proceed with crypt 

analysis; there was 8 wl. deSpJ't!Bd feel~n~ that. it vaen't rimt. f'or UB to e~a,e 

in this"eO'rt or~unoerhanded stuff. . - . . ' 

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REF ID:A72912 

( Interview continued} 

It was 'because Friedman, more ·or le• on his orn initiati•, dabbled in -

thi• fie la of cryptography that bis leter accom]JlbhmEl'l ta wt. t.h Jap codes na 

lh9re possible. Until Yardle71a otf'ice ••. cloeecl, SO did ~lmoat. no cryptanal79ie. 

But e:f"ter.Friedmen took over Yardl•'• records md the SO 1"llt Jut"orized the 

a.,lution. of enelllJ' ceyp~ogrema during 111rtime_, a al 1!!11 t impetus ms glwn. 

?riedman never dlaouaaecl Yeratey 1 a work with the latter {while II?. Y. office 

••open) but'tmew aomawhlt. what. ?erdle7-t19~ dot,n_t. Not much Cl'J'Pt.analy-ia was 

~ccompM. eht 4 in 1' • Y. becaua• the uni\ tbs re •liaaA l!ie~fot ot turnln~ out a ab!. op1a£ 

~e tor a private firmJ it didn't teep ver7 1ooa orfice. boursr end Yard1ey was 

Mxed up ia a number ot outaiae activitles. (hiedman thinks that Yardley ne_a _ 

bet.tar admlnietretot: than cryptam lyst and tltat breskini: ot Jap code in 1920~more 

the- =ork of Yardley's subordinate (L,.~." 1!,to la now wit1' State Dept.) than of Y • • -;!!~ 

In 1929 a study was made by "a jor O~n ~. Albri~ht (SC) of WD cryptogrephf. 

Because N.Y. of~ice not well organized he reoo!!!""'ended that ita Folution duties 

be turned over to SO.~ (Stuart 'Hein,,elma mi beaded '!I in 1929.) lfot cleer how 

instrumental Priedman was in the clos1 n!1' do-.n ot N. Y. office. , 

r;.e closin~ down may have been decided upon even before 131:.irneon became 

aware o~ ite work on 15 v~y 1929. Friedman even believes that ~oover ~BB reeponaiblfor 1;Pe withdrawal pf State Depl funds; rather Yardley tol~ Friedmsn thia9-Since 

!:tete was contributing anrrially 15.000. b7 1929, a':od WO ilo,ooo., latter decided 

it could JlOt foot the entil_'.e bill end ao ti.e N.Y~s closed. This does not mean. 

that officials in State Dept did not appreciate value of W.Y. office. Hoqever, , 

they had no authority to coniinue it once State brass decided otherwise. 

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It may '-e ae.id that in Y,em.~ a 1930 to 1935 cryptat1l lysia in WD le gfi d, prtmar• 

ly because there mas no impetus f'rom top WD officials and becau ae Sig Intel 1 Sect 

found it eo hard to get cryptogra11& •. A~ther factor wee Ehortege ot SO perso~l 

and f'unde .• At one time ebout onl7 source of f'orei,n cryptograns tas t7hat Mauborgn~ 

could pick up with hie small 1nt.er'cept station. at the Presidio in· Oal it. , A - \ 

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_ I~M t~bulatinJ!: nB cbinFa beg~ to be purcheaed { 4 machines) in 19,6 thoul!'h 

some were used a abort time before,• encl pal d f'or bf (l>"G. "'heee ma chines did the 

work of' many c lerka encl vs re most valuable in code end cl pher "O rk • ..,,,. I. "' • "" 

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, Aa for encoding anci encipherin,: machines, these •re developed· and in uae 

: ,_ before, tbe wm'. STGABA was conceived by Fried m111 and dee loped jointlr .with Navy. 

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Sif?CtJ!A was conceived and developed.solely by so. They prBlved thel.r TOrth in the 

war al!d it is tariedman '• opinion tbat our codes end ciphen surp ... ssed the German· 

and Japanese: Whether the~..li.1!e2:8 bat .. tbm the Britilh, r·would_ not BBJ'. H!t hold 

pa~ent.a on S!GABA end{l(!OU- but haen 't res Um cl a d11118 f8t. , _ - . 

A~ for the EM trained at ArUngton'Hell d\iring the ilU', many of them went 

out with Si,r Intell Detechments. 'l'l'ew went inio crYJ>tara lysis becaue ia'e alread7 

'"'ad tr.al ned civilian experts (,check this). / t _ 

· . It would appear that. SO waa abort 1~,ot'f'ice~a J~ryptograpbio) when •r c~m but w were 'set up to e~cl ttnllx ret. her ,eaaily •. Equel ly" important, the mos) 

important code machines '18re eiready in use end.\!& hm· quite a body ot'codee anc1. 

ciph~ra. Latter fBI' superior t~ w~t ma avai.Jlble in .WI r. 11\'e"aeem to ha~ made 

greater stride' in code_ 1\'0rk 'between the ni:a thah __ ti»i_;. ~nneny.-. ~r.gland ia. a ·. 

q~'8st1on mark Friedman w?u~d no~ ctiecusa. - . • _ - - - · · ' - ---..... -_ ..... ·--;-~_:::.::-~- ... -; 

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REF ID:A72912 

QUESTIONfl 

1. What \.'a.a the main actlvlt7 ot tbs 

1929-30! 

Oo~e end ~lpher Unit prior to 

w.~~-;. vi 

the 

'· In th& 193()1 s W"ha.t percentage of/activities ot t'h9 Signal IntBl lb:ene 

Section ~ devoted to cryptanalysis of .f9orei gn ~eeeai.zes? 

. _. _ /93 ~-.:SS"' ~-, _.e;,rU(o ~~ ~ C;t-,.-;;.:t'~.e,_.J-". 

4. Row successful l1BB the Signal InteliJ"en ce Section in produeintr . 

e·-pert civilian cryptenelyete? 

~& ~<~~~ ' .. tit. ' 5~ When a Si~al . Corps of'f"ver -completed tbs tt;To yaer coursa in tra et~ral Intel liven ce _S~tion, Fhat was he qualified to do well• 

In the ~vent of waz:y/q)uld he la e•J>!cted t" be s compiler of 

codea and ciphera9 / A cryptanalyst! </t-v ' 

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6. V1ere mo bl U.zat ion plan a .re Bi~al i-nts 11 ip:ai ce fo 1 lor.ed men 

World War II boke out?. 

~ e-.-.~ ( ?) 

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.• ·1. '!•s .Arlin~n H"all vi~ tma j.w;t 88 it came "to anelop? 

8~ In 194<> and 194~ whet ~rc~.ntage of E!f t1ho trai s~rred from the~ 

code cl.era• school at. ea- J.•onmouth'• RTO made goal at .Arliudon ~1 • - • • ' Q_ I ' ..... , ~"~ • ~ 

elf tJ • ~ 

.. £!, .... ~ """'~~ _,.J;.~;::1· r-- ,;~-;;,;;-- 7· .,,.-j;_' . St '. ~~.12. • -. • V..~"'4· ~ ... "1' ,,...-( ' ~ , 

c-..p~ ~. ' . - . 

_ y'9 . . Bow did' the Arm.y~~ coae and ciphers UB9 cl 1n Vforld War II_ stack' 

up e_ietn.st tbose used b7.-England. ~rmai Y'• Japan! 

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!"'' 10. Was the AraJ'I Field Code e success .in T:ffl IIT . - . - I 

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REF ID:A72912 

~~~; l. When did SC receive responsibility for~codes and ciphers! 

2. \las the Code Compilation Section of G-2 (in WW I) staffed lart:el7 

with SC :personnel? How long did Colonel Gibbs retain control of 

tiDY" V.I unit in 19171 

S_cr ~, .. Jj ~ L G - 2. ~-{ 

/w- c.. (./,,. 

3. What were the units of Code and Cipher Section of G-2 (MI-8)? 

Uas there a code and cipher solution unit, as Yardley B81's? 

4. Did CSO have !:!!Z. control over MI-8 during WWI? 

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REF ID:A72912 

5. Whan did SC begin to use signal intell. units in the overseas 

departments for training! 

6. Did the SC Ol' Wer ;9e~. know \1ell in adve.nce thRt Ya.rclley 1 s N. Y. 

off ice woulc told in fall of 1~2~1 

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7. \.'hat were the ressons for Signal Intell. Service being created in 

Ap1•1l, 1938'1 

B. Wl'll' did Ma.uborgne ask Friedman and his people to concentrate on 

Japanese codes? Had SC ever before broken B.JJ1' Jpp codes? Other 

foreign codes! 

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REF ID:A72912 

9. Exactly what was meant by "ma~ic" when it was used in 1940-411 

10. What was the strength of SIS in 1~38, 1939, 19401 Were any really 

new functions aseigned to SIS between 1938 and 1941? 

11. What was Gen. MP.uborgne' s infiuence on crytography ""hile CSOT 

Gen. 01'11steadT 

12. When did the SIS really gear for wer, get on a wer footing! 

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REF ID:A72912 

13. In the ee.rl.7 l930 1 a it was expectPd that mobilization requirements 

for crTPt• personnel would be about 170 officers. How faz off was 

thia plarminc! 

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REF ID:A72912 

1. ~&a~lf~en did SC receive responsibility tor codes and ciphers? 

2. las the Code Compilation Section ot G-2 (in WW lJ staffed largel7 

with SI personnel! Bow long did Colonel Gibbs retain control ot 

tiiv III unit in 1917'1 

3. What were the a.EX units of Code alJd Cipher Section or G-2 (MI-8)? 

Was there a code and cipher solution unit, as Ya..C:ley says? 

4. Did CSO have ~ control over MI-81 during WWI? 

5. When did SC begin to use signal intell. unite in the oversees 

departments for trEiining? 

. ,., Lt,.,., J/4; (. 

6. Did the SCA know well in adv~nce that Inrdley 1& N.J. office would 

fold in fall of 1929? 

7. What were the reasons for Signal lntell. Service being created in 

April, 1938' 

8. o5;;:a:a4J:;j~ did Me.uborgne ask Friedman :bx am his people to concentrate 

on Japanese codes? '1ad SC ever before tr~ken any Jap codes? Other 

toreip codes'I 

9. Ex&.ctly what was meant b7 "magic" when it w1as used in 1940-417 c 

10. What •as the strength of SIS in 1938, 1939, 1940? iJDIZ Were eny 

really new functions essigned to SIS betr.een 1938 and 1941? 

11. What •as Gen. Il4auborgne 1e influence on crytograplcy while CSO? .J>Jc.... ~.C..J.#tl' 

12. lben did the SIS reall7 gear for war, get on a war footing? 

13. In the earl7 19301& it was expected that mobilizatio.lequirements 

tor Cl")'pt. personnel w"Uld be about l~w tar ott6\~~ t~is planning? 

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