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USCIB: 29.17/27 

Subject: 

It:em 3 of the Agenda for the 2$th Meeting of USCIBEC, 

held on 22 April 1955. 

CCMINT Relations./With I .... __ .,.... 

The CHAIRMAN (Captain Taylor}, stating that this item had been 

placed on the agenda by his off'ice, said that the reply received from 

LSIB (enclosure with USCIB 29 .• 17 /23) contained certain comments which 

he believed deserving of discussion. He referred to paragraph 2 of this 

paper and the parenthetical expression it contains in which LSIB states 

for the first +imp th:tthe s•mnhr of the jequested e ui ents\ to th I • d~1. 

He then asked Lt. Colonel Harrold if he had any points to raise. 

LT. COLONEL HARROLD replied that he did, and said that he first 

wan~inf orm the manbers that the Air Force has been approacne·. d by 

thel___J. With reference to the LSIB request as stated by SUSLO, 

London, that future equipment negotiations be handled by GCHQ and\NSA 

he said that in view of the ELINT-COMINT confusion he would pref er to 

have matters handled between I.SIB and USCIB for the t:ime being. 

The CHAIRMAN invited attention to the word "initially" in para.-

graph 4 of the proposal and, suggesting it may be significant from the 

British point of view, asked for opinions on phraseology which would 

permit initial negotiations between GCHQ and NSA, provided they are 

ultimately approved by USCIB-LSIB. 

LT. COLONEL HARROLD said that he interpreted "initially" to mean 

that NSA and GCHQ would negotiate on technical matters and, when agreement is reached, present their recommendations to the two Boards. 

MR. GODEL agreed with this interpretation, and expressed his 

opinion that General Canine would be the logical person to distinguish 

between EI.INT and COMINT requests when they are first received. 

The CHAIRMAN agreed, stating that it will be impor ant for General 

Canine to determi 

He continued by saying that if ELINT 

equipments are considered an essential bargaining point for CCMINT, as 

the British have stated, the Director, NSA will have to indicate the 

degree of CCMINT need in order that this can be weighed as to relative 

importance against the ELINT need, as determined by ELINT authorities. 

He said that the Director NSA 1s recommendations in such a case would be 

considered by the Board. 

CAPTAIN HOLTWICK assured the members that NSA would consult with 

other interested members before negotiating with the U.K. on future 

requests for ELINT equipments. 

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There was further discussion on paragraph 4atterwhich it was agreed 

to leave the paragraph unchanged with the understanding that the minutes 

would reflect the members' views concerning it~ 

The CHAIRMAN asked if all members understood that by this decision, 

if approved by USCIB, the Director, NSA is authorized to initiate action 

to obtain, from previously indi[ated sour.ces., the./re.ques .• ted \i.·tems of 

EI.INT equipment for shipment to t through U.K. channels .• 

co ies of a tele ram 

in i. e /an e . ir . orce epresentative 

described an approach which had been/made to them by the British. The 

message read as follows: 

111. J. E. POULDEN WAS ADVISED MEETING REQUESTED IN 29 MARCH LETTER 

OF DIRECTOR GCHQ COULD NOT BE HELD AT THIS TIME :$UT HE REQUESTED A 

LIAISON VISIT TO PRESENT LATEST iBRITISH VIEWS. MR. A. BACON FR()l NID 

WHO IS THE BRITISH LIAISO.· N/ WITH.·.·/ THE J fON CLINT JD ELINT MA:·. TTERS 

AND J. E. POULDEN OUTLINED BRITISH IEW OF THE I• POSITION AS 

. FOLLOWS: 

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c1) r 1 coNsIDER ELINT AND cG1IN'1 As ONE AND THEREFORE 

STRONGLY DESI~ THAT ALL NEGOTIATIONS IN BOTH FIELDS BE HANDLED THROUGH 

ONE CHANNEL, NAMELY, THE /BRITISH NAVAL ~ WHICH HAS BEEN IN OPERATION 

SEVEN YEARS AND HAS BEEN/ PROVEN TO THE L__J SATISFACTION TO BE SECURE. 

(2) THE QUESTION OF 5Emmm rs PABAHOlJNT ANpl I 

IWHo Is PRESENTLY IN LONDON, HAS REITERATED .... T ..... 0.--M--R-. -BA--C ..... ON-I""""N_T_H'""'"E....--.ST-R""""O.-N .... G-EST TERMS THAT THIS IS A VERY CLOSELY GUARDED 

SECREr AND THERE WAS GREAT POLITICAL DANGER OF A SOCIALIST OR COMMUNIST 

MEMBER OF PARLIAMENT GETTING WORD OF THIS EXCHANGE OF INFORMATION 

THROUGH A BREACH OF SECURITY WITH THE RESULT THAT HE AND OTHERS INVOLVED 

WOULD BE CASHIERED AND IMPRISONED. PL 86-36/50 usc 3605 

(3) /f ~FURTHER AnVISED THAT ANY FUTURE APPROACHES 

TO c:lHY OF DEFENSE SUCH AS THE RECENT ONE BY A U. s. AIR ATTACHE 

IN ··INCREASES THE CHANCES OF A SECURITY BREACH AND MAY PUT HIM 

IN ON OF HAVING TO STOP THE FLOW OF BOTH C<J.IINT AND EI.INT TO 

BOTH U.S • .AND U.K. 

(4) HE FAILS TO UNDERSTAND WHY APPROACHES ARE BEING MADE 

BY U.S. AUTHORITI:ES WHEN THEY ARE ALREADY RECEIVING BOTH TYPES OF 

INFORMATION AND HE REFUSES TO DISCUSS THE MATTER WITH EITHER U.S. 

AUTHORITIES OR HIS OWN MINISTRY OF DEFENSE. 

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( 5) HE FEELS INSULTED THAT HE SHOULD BE ASKED TO FURNISH 

COPIF.s OF HIS RAW DATA SUCH AS OPERATORS' LOGS. AS BACKGROUND 

INFO~~TION J E, POULDEN STATED THE FOLLOWING: THE BRITI .. SH RECOGN·. IZE 

THAT THE HAVE A HIGH DEnREE OF COOPETmCE IN THE ELINT FIELD AND 

KNOW T U E HIGH GRADE ENGINEER OPERATORS. THEY c· NIZE\FftCM THEIR PREVIOUS CONTACTS THE HIGH DEnREE OF PRIDE THE . HAVE IN 

THEIR OWN Coo>E'l'ENCE AND THEREFORE NEVER PRF.SS THEM DATA AND 

ACCEPT THEIR EVALUATED RESULTS. THE BRITISH RECEIVE ELINT RESULTS IN 

THE FORM OF PERSONAL LETTERS EXCHANGED THREE TIMES A AT TECHNIC 

I 

ELECTRONIC MEANS OF COMMUNICATION ARE N '=F.s=T=-=A=BL=-=I=s=HED=-AND~ WILL BE OPERATING IN THE NEAR FUTURE ALLOWING DAY-TODAY EXCHANGE IF REQUIRED. 

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"2. THE BRITISH ARE VERY CONCERNED ABQIITTH}i; fRESENT SITUATION 

SINCE U.S. APPROACHES ARE STRAINING BRITISH[ ii )RELATIONS AND THEY 

FEEL THAT ANY FURTHER TENSION CAUSED BY CONTINUED DIRECT CONTACTS BY 

ANY U.S. AGENCY MAY VERY LIKELY DISRUPT THE FLOW OF BO'l'H COMINT AND 

ELINT. BOTH J.E. POULDEN AND MR. BACON EMPHASIZED THA':tl IIS 

THE CONTROLLER OF ALL ELINT MATTERS WITH AUTHORITY TO D!SCONTINUE PASSAGE 

OF INFORMATION TO BRITISH AND U.S. THEY CONSIDER A SOLUTION OF THIS 

PROBI.n{ A MOST URGENT MATTER AND J. E. POULDEN HAS OFFERED TO VISIT 

WASHINGTON IMMEDIATELY TO CLARIFY ANY POINTS IN QUESTION IF DESIRED. 

"3. IT WAS STATED BY J. E. POULDEN THAT AT ONE TIME Gnt.ERAL CANINE 

HAD OFFERED THE GOOD SERVIC:ES OF HIS o/FICE IN AN ATTEM······PT TO STOP FURTHER 

DIRECT U.S. APPROACHFS TO THE I ..... _ ____.J 

114. THE IMPRESSION GAINED BY STEVENSON AND MARTIN AT THIS INFORMAL 

MEETING IS THAT THE BRITISH ARE VERY SINCERE AND ANXIOUS TO COO:PERATE 

WITH THE U.S. AND THEY HAVE NO ULTERIOR MOTIVE IN THIS MATTER, BUT RATHER 

THAT THEY GENUINELY FEEL THERE IS A REAL DANGER OF THE LOSS OF A VALUABI.E 

SOURCE OF INFOR!'lATION TO BOTH U.S. AND U.K. 

11 5. THIS REPORT HAS BEEN PREPARED JOINTLY BY STEVENSON AND MARTIN. 

PLEASE SEE THAT Gl!NERAL LEWIS GETS COPI:ES WITHOUT DELAY. (A COPY OF 

THIS HAS, IN FACT, BEEN PASSED TO GENERAL LEWIS.) 11 

The CHAIRMAN informed the members that a reply has been sent to the 

CIA representative • 

.__ ______________ in effect, aQ1cnowledged receipt 

or the U.K. views and said that they w.ould be carefully considered; 

stated that his Washington headquarters could only reiterate the position 

stated earlier; and requested that Mr. Poulden be so informed and advised 

that a visit by him to the U.S. at this time would not assist in the 

resolution or the problem. 

The CHAI~. expressed his /opinion that the info .• · mation presented .__ _____ ___,lehould be injected into Board channels as quickly as 

possible, and, since LSIB has /made no comment in paragraph 3 or their 

memo, he asked whether it would be advisable for him to ask SUSLO, 

London to find out whether the U .K. views I 1 represent the views or LSIB. He said that he considered it curious that LSIB, 

in their paragraph 3, make no mention or the ef'fect of lmilateral ELINT 

dealings on the CCMINT negotiati~ms, yet they have stated specifically 

that the ELINT equipment requ~sted is essential to their success. In 

addition, he said,\ LSIB has. not insisted. up~ion of separate 

dealings on ELINT but/O]lly noted that theirL___J contacts have indicated this. 

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l.._ ............................... ------___.ponsidered it wise to get confirmation of 

the LSIB views. 

MR. PACKARD, recalling the London Conf.erence of J'11.y 154, said that 

the existing situation was predicted by Ba.con, who was\ overruled when an 

agreement on COM.INT alone was rea.ched. 

MR. GODEL proposed. that the LSIB l.etter be taken at its face value. 

The CHAIRMAN asked if/it were being suggested that the information 

lbe ignored in replying to LSIB with the under- .._s_t~an-di ....... n_g.......,th~a~t~w-e-w:-oUl--..-d..--c_,ontinue with our unilateral negotiations. 

MR. PACKARD said that if thel ~ant the U.S. to Ciesist from 

unilateral arrangements, I.SIB should be put in the position of having to 

raise the issue by requesting that we change the terms of reference o.f 

the Conference. 

The CHAIRMAN pointed out that we have a serious question of whether 

the C(l.UNT approach to 1----i .. · ./ \ i· ... • s going to be jeopardized by a· .. unilateral 

ELINT approach by the ~ecalling ·• stat ents by the Director 

NSA on the sub ect he cautioned. that the potential as \a 

mus ep 

'-----;:::::========:=::::;~--' .__ _______ __.b.f anyone\ could fore.see harm in asking LSIB for 

confirmation of their views. 

MR. POLYZOIDES suggested that.\ this not·· •.. be d.one and that we continue 

to play the game our way. Pointing out that our own house is not yet. in 

order on the COMINT-ELINT problem, be objected to forcing the issue 

before we are prepared to see it through. He recommended that th~ 

Committee's action be limited to app?'oval or. the U.K. letter received 

from SUSLO. 

CAPTAIN HOLTWICK said that it would be interesting to know whether 

the equipment we are agreeing to furnishj I through the U.K. is 

being wasted. 

MR. POLYZOIDES, noting the I.SIB assurance 'Ir.hat the equipment is 

necessary for successful COMINT negotiations, • .• said that i:f our 

"attorney" turns out not to be trustworthy\ and we do not get CCMINT 

results, our complaint can be made to LSIB. 

L....r,,_.,,.,......, ...... ...,....,--.J~M=r:..:•:...;·~=el expressed the consensus o t e group saying 

,___.,....-__. are a,~ concerned about unilateral approaches as the 

British say, the British 'Will undoubtedly infol'lll us through official 

rather than inf orma.l channels. 

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LT. COLONEL HARROLD announced thal he wi 11 ~oon go. to Germany where 

he will talk with the Air Attach.r; from : du.• ri~ which dtscussions 

he hopes to obtain a clearer picture of the situation • 

MR. GODEL suggestedt IAir f()J'.':e determine what their 

particular interests inhe pPODI'"'1 are. He then ~"'9•ed his understanding that the Committee will be grateful for an expressiono:t" views 

by the EI.INT authorities as to the impact on their business. 

MR pm;yzornF..s then nronnsed ±.hat the ]]lelll.bers note the message .__ ________________ ___.lusAF Members investigate the 

ramifications of the message and forward their views on it at the earliest 

practicable date. 

It was so agreed. 

....._ ____________________ ___, ___ _..,.... on Colonel 

Harrold's trip would be presented at a meeting of the Committee. In 

addition, he said that he would welcome adip-ce fr, th··· e members, - particularly from NSA on the importance of L _ CCMINT. 

The CHAIRMAN referred again to the LSIB letter, noting that all 

points had been discussed and that the only remaining action concerned 

notification to LSIB. 

CAPTAIN HOLTWICK recommended that an affirmative reply be sent to 

LSIB. 

All members agreed. 

CAPTAIN HOLTWICK, pointing out that the Board has a liaison representative in London ( SUSLO) asked if it mi ht not be ro er for him to 

attend future mee • 

MR. GODEL s~ested that SUSLO's attendance be~ on an invitational basis,I IAir Force representatives there expected that 

Co.MINT of interes to him might be discussed. 

MR. BUFFHAM stated that Colonel Pulling is accredited to LSIB and 

that it is customary for him to authorize all U.S.-U.K. COMINT and 

EI.INT contacts. 

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V.iR. POLYZOIDES suggested the decision/ be left to those on the scene. 

Af'ter brief discussion the CHAIRMAN/said that it was his understanding that the original arrangement permitted \the members to have a 

unilateral contact on ELINT and that SUSLO would have no substantive 

cognizance over our dealings with ELINT. This, he said, in no way 

affected SUSLO•s control over U.S. nationals visiting GCHQ whether ro+ 

EI.INT or CCJUNT purposes. 

The CHAIRMAN informed the mern'bers that he would forward the Committee 

recommendation to USCIB on a "no/objection" basis\and, upon approval, 

inform I.SIB of USCIB1 s views. 

CAPTAIN HOLTWICK agreed to keep the Board informed on the pat\lre and 

status of any approaches which/ come to NSA's attention. 

DFCISIQN. I?? 6 na; 1 io;c) USCIBEC agreed that the LSIB statement on 

I l, as contained in the enclosure with USCIB 

29.17/23, should be accepted in light of the foregoinf discussion and on 

the assumption that future equipment requirements for_ lror COMINT 

purposes will be subject to ultimate USCIB approval in any case. USCIBEC 

agreed to recommend, therefore, that USCIB: 

a. Approve the proposals contained in the enclosure with USCIB 

29.17/23, and 

b. Direct the Executive Secretary to see that ISIB is info?med 

of such approval. 

c. · ~:;:~i: lthe ramifications. SuCli report to !!i~~=:ed as soon as practicable for consideration at a future meeting 

of the Committee. 

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