Page 1'

 U.S. DEPARTMENT OF ENERGY 

 + + + + + 

 TEST PROCEDURES FOR HIGH-INTENSITY 

 DISCHARGE (HID) LAMPS 

 + + + + + 

 PUBLIC MEETING 

 + + + + + 

 THURSDAY 

 JANUARY 19, 2012 

 + + + + + 

 The Meeting convened in Room 8E089, 1000 Independence Avenue SW, Washington, 

District of Columbia, at 9:00 a.m., Doug 

Brookman, Facilitator, presiding. 

PRESENT 

DOUG BROOKMAN, Facilitator, Pacific Solutions, 

 Inc. 

TINA KAARSBERG, Ph.D., Department of Energy 

ELIZABETH ‘BETSY’ KOHL, Department of Energy 

ALSO PRESENT 

CARL ABRAMSON, Ushio America, Inc. (via 

telephone) 

ERIC ANDERSEN, Pacific Northwest National 

Laboratory (via telephone) 

SUSAN ANDERSON, Osram Sylvania 

ALEX BOESENBERG, Nation Electrical 

Manufacturers Association 

SUSAN CALLAHAN, Osram Sylvania (via telephone) 

ALSO PRESENT(Cont'd) 

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KEITH COOK, Philips Electronics 

RONALD DAUBACH, Osram Sylvania (via telephone) 

BRENDA EDWARDS, Department of Energy 

DAVID ELLIS, Intertek (via telephone) 

BILL HITCHCOCK, Philips Lighting 

 (via telephone) 

MARGE HOLDSWORTH, QSSI (via telephone) 

JOE HOWLEY, General Electric 

BECKY KEUBLER, ALP Lighting Components 

 (via telephone) 

RUI LI, Lumentra, Inc. (via telephone) 

ROBERT LINGARD, Pacific Northwest National 

 Laboratory (via telephone) 

JOANNA MAUER, Appliance Standards Awareness 

 Project 

MICHAEL McGARAGHAN, California Investor-Owned 

 Utilities 

SCOTT MORRIS, Pacific Northwest National 

 Laboratory (via telephone) 

MICHAEL MYER, Pacific Northwest National 

 Laboratory 

REBECCA RAINER, Cooper Lighting 

 (via telephone) 

HEIDI STEWARD, Pacific Northwest National 

 Laboratory 

SIMONE SYDNOR, Energetics 

LINDSAY STEELE, Pacific Northwest National 

 Laboratory 

MATTHEW WALKER, Navigant 

MERRY WALKER, Navigant 

LINDA WILSON, New York State Office of the 

 Attorney General (via telephone) 

DAVID WOODWARD, Philips Lighting 

 (via telephone) 

MATTHEW SWINK, Department of Justice 

 (via telephone) 

JAMES WANG, Simkar (via telephone) 

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 C-O-N-T-E-N-T-S 

Welcome by Tina Kaarsberg 5 

Introductions by Doug Brookman 6 

Overview by Michael Myer 13 

STATUTE AND CONTEXT: 

Industry Standards for HID Lamps 

by Lindsay Steele 22 

Proposed Test Procedures - Definitions 

by Heidi Steward 24 

Issue 1a - Comments 31 

TEST METHODS 

Ambient temperature and air speed 

by Lindsay Steele 46 

Discussion Issues 2 and 3 47 

Electronic and Photometric Measurements 

of HID lamps 56 

by Lindsay Steele 

Comments 56 

Power Supply Characteristics 61 

Issue 4 comments 62 

Reference Ballast Requirements 

by Lindsay Steele page 63 

Issue 5 comments 62 

Instrumentation Requirements 

by Lindsay Steele 76 

Issue 6 comments 77 

Sampling Method for HID Test Procedures 

by Lindsay Steele 78 

Issue 7 comments 79 

Aging and Stabilization 

by Heidi Steward 83 

 C-O-N-T-E-N-T-S 

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Issue 8 comments 84 

Cool down and re-stabilization 

by Heidi Steward 85 

Issue 9 comments 85 

Lamp Orientation 

by Heidi Steward 86 

Issue 10 comments 87 

Directional Lamps 

by Heidi Steward 87 

Issue 11 comments 88 

LABORATORY ACCREDITATION PROGRAM 

by Heidi Steward 84 

Issue 12 Comments 95 

TEST MEASUREMENTS AND CALCULATIONS 

by Lindsay Steele 98 

Issue 13 Comments 100 

CLOSING COMMENTS 108 

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1 P-R-O-C-E-E-D-I-N-G-S 

2 9:02 a.m. 

3 DR. KAARSBERG: Good morning. 

4 Welcome to the first Lighting Standards 

5 Meeting of 2012. I hope you're having a good 

6 year so far. As I think a lot of you know, 

7 I'm Tina Kaarsberg. I'm the project manager 

8 for Lighting Standards and I'm also going to 

9 try to be a bit of an emcee today. And I'd 

10 like to give a special hello to the Web 

11 participants. 

12 (Telephonic interference.) 

13 DR. KAARSBERG: Welcome to the 

14 wonderful world of HID lamp Test Procedures. 

15 The thrills, the chills, the excitement, the 

16 drama. Okay, everyone, I guess, as per usual, 

17 I'm going to turn it over to Doug to go 

18 through the rules and regulations, I mean, 

19 just the process. And the agenda, so take it 

20 away, Doug. 

21 MR. BROOKMAN: Thank you. Good 

22 morning, everyone. This is the U.S. 

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1 Department of Energy's public meeting on Test 

2 Procedures for High Intensity Discharge Lamps. 

3 Today is Thursday, January 19th, 2012. It's 

4 our tradition to start with introductions 

5 around the room, so start over here. Say your 

6 name and organizational affiliation and you 

7 can get used to turning these mics on and off. 

8 Make sure the little green button is 

9 illuminated. 

10 MR. STEELE: Lindsey Steele, 

11 Pacific Northwest National Laboratory. 

12 MS. STEWARD: Heidi Stewart, 

13 Pacific Northwest National Lab. 

14 MR. BOESENBERG: Alex Boesenberg, 

15 NEMA. 

16 MR. HOWLEY: Joe Howley, GE 

17 Lighting. 

18 MS. MAUER: Joanna Mauer, 

19 Appliance Standards Awareness Project. 

20 MS. ANDERSON: Susan Anderson, 

21 Osram Sylvania. 

22 MR. COOK: Keith Cook, Philips 

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1 Electronics. 

2 (Off-microphone comments) 

3 MR. BROOKMAN: Thank you, Brenda. 

4 MR. MYER: Michael Myer, Pacific 

5 Northwest National Laboratory. 

6 MS. KOHL: Betsy Kohl, DOE General 

7 Counsel. 

8 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay, I guess 

9 that's all for this morning. Thanks again for 

10 those of you here, an early start on the day. 

11 All of you received a packet of information 

12 when you came in the door, as well as an 

13 agenda. I'm going to run through this very, 

14 very briefly. 

15 Immediately following this agenda 

16 review, there's an opportunity for brief 

17 opening statements. Anybody that wishes to 

18 raise any issues here at the outset, there's 

19 an opportunity here to do so. 

20 Following that we'll have a 

21 presentation followed by the opportunity for 

22 question, answer and comment on statute and 

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1 context. 

2 Immediately following that, we're 

3 going to talk about the proposed HID test 

4 procedures, the definitions and test methods. 

5 We'll take a break midmorning or so, around 

6 about 11:15. 

7 Following the break, yet more 

8 presentation materials on the proposed HID 

9 test procedures, laboratory accreditation 

10 program, test measurements and calculations. 

11 And around about noon or so, after that 

12 discussion on presentation segment is 

13 concluded, there's an opportunity yet again 

14 for closing remarks, any other issues that you 

15 would like to raise at this point in this 

16 public meeting. 

17 So that's the plan for today. 

18 Questions and comments about the schedule or 

19 about this? Anything that's not covered that 

20 should be covered? We're good? Okay. 

21 I'd ask for your consideration. 

22 I've jotted up what I think are common 

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1 courtesies. Please speak one at a time. 

2 Please say your name for the record each time 

3 you speak. I'm going to be queuing 

4 individuals by name as best I can to speak. I 

5 will also wish to encourage follow-on 

6 comments, I find that might be useful, the 

7 back and forth, for the Department. Please 

8 say your name when you speak. 

9 Please keep the focus here, turn 

10 your cell phones on silent mode and limit your 

11 sidebar conversations. We've already gotten 

12 used to hitting the little on/off button on 

13 the microphone, so please speak into the 

14 record, there'll be a complete transcript of 

15 this meeting. 

16 DR. KAARSBERG: One more process 

17 item. Some of you may have noticed that the 

18 Federal Register notice says we're going until 

19 2:00 p.m., but the agenda here has us stopping 

20 at 12:30. That was just our best judgment, 

21 once we actually went through everything we 

22 needed to talk about, that's when we do think 

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1 it will end. However, we have flexibility. 

2 If you want to say more, we can go until 2:00. 

3 If you want to say less, we can end earlier. 

4 But I just wanted to note that for the 

5 record. 

6 And the other item is that we 

7 will, in order to accommodate some of the West 

8 Coast folks who were not able to get logged in 

9 at 6:00 in the morning, for whatever reason, 

10 we will be posting audio files as well as the 

11 transcript on the website. And we'll also try 

12 to make them as user-friendly as we can. 

13 Okay, let's see what's next. 

14 MR. BROOKMAN: And we should 

15 probably also say we have folks joining us via 

16 the web. 

17 DR. KAARSBERG: Right, yes I was 

18 mentioning that. 

19 MR. BROOKMAN: And thanks for 

20 those on the web if you'd please keep your 

21 phones on mute, I think we've solved the echo 

22 problem for now. 

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1 DR. KAARSBERG: Yes, and we're 

2 going to -- So, Simone, how many web people do 

3 we have right now? Sixteen, okay. So what '

4' we're going to do is stop of at the end of '

5' every segment in the agenda, so for us, the '

6' first segment would be like 9:45, we're going '

7' to ask for web comments as well. '

8' What's going to happen there is, '

9' if there are just a handful of web comments, 

10 we will read them aloud and they will get into 

11 the transcript. If it turns that there are 

12 more than we can accommodate in the time, 

13 which has happened in the past, the procedure 

14 will be to have the ones that aren't read 

15 aloud, to have them be appended to the 

16 transcript as if they had been spoken, but 

17 they'll be at the end. That's the best we 

18 could do. 

 Oh, yes, is there any 

19 reason we couldn't show them who's on? 

20 (Off-microphone comments.) 

21 MR. MYER: I defer to Simone. 

22 DR. KAARSBERG: Okay, Simone's 

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1 going to read the Web participants names 

2 aloud. I think we have more on the web than 

3 in person, or it's very close anyway. Okay, 

4 so, Simone, do you have a microphone now? 

5 (Off microphone comments.) 

6 MR. BROOKMAN: Why don't you just 

7 read the names of those who are on there? 

8 MS. SYDNOR: So on the webinar we 

9 have Becky Keubler, Carl Abramson, David 

10 Ellis, David Woodward, Eric Andersen, James 

11 Wang, Linda Wilson, Marge Holdsworth, Matthew 

12 Swink, Rebecca Rainer, Robert Lingard, Ronald 

13 Daubach, Rui Li, Scott Morris, Susan Callahan, 

14 and William Hitchcock. 

15 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay, thank you. 

16 DR. KAARSBERG: Thank you. Now 

17 we're finally getting to the meat of the test 

18 procedures. We're going to review, present 

19 and seek comments. And without further ado, I 

20 would like to introduce the master of metal 

21 halide, the sultan of sodium and the maestro 

22 of mercury, our own hero of HID, Mr. Mike Myer 

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1 from Pacific Northwest National Lab. 

2 [applause] 

3 MR. MYER: Wow, tragically 

4 everything from this point on is going to be 

5 anticlimactic. Wow. Hopefully when we sync 

6 this up for a podcast it can be like the old 

7 60s Batman, pow. Thank you, Tina. So the 

8 purpose of test procedures and today's NOPR 

9 public meeting: One, we'll review the statute 

10 and DOE's actions related to high intensity 

11 discharge lamps. 

12 We're also going to present the 

13 proposed test procedure and ultimately it's 

14 for comment from both people in the room and 

15 the many others who are listening online and 

16 via the web. And at this time, we'll do 

17 opening remarks from around the room and then 

18 we'll wait and then do brief opening remarks 

19 from the web, as that works. 

20 MR. BROOKMAN: If that works. I 

21 saw Alex at the outset wanted to make a 

22 comment. 

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1 MR. BOESENBERG: This is Alex 

2 Boesenberg of NEMA and on behalf of the 

3 manufacturers, I wanted to list a couple of -- 

4 six very brief summary topics that we have 

5 gathered so far as we're crafting our public 

6 comments, just some thoughts to keep in mind. 

7 As always, we'll submit this in 

8 writing. And some of these topics will be 

9 commented on by some of the industry experts 

10 as we get to those subjects through the course 

11 of today's discussion. 

12 One thing we want to point out is 

13 there's an inconsistency in the NOPR right now 

14 regarding the use of the terms measured and 

15 rated, they're sometimes interchanged. A 

16 measured value is very different from the 

17 rated value and we will include some 

18 suggestions as to how that could be clarified. 

19 We note frequent mention of HID 

20 ballasts in the document right now and want to 

21 reaffirm that it's not a ballast standard, so 

22 in most cases ballasts are not the appropriate 

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1 topic. How a lamp performs will be measured 

2 based solely on the lamp. 

3 We noted some interchangeability, 

4 or some confusion, we think, in the use of 

5 lumen maintenance and life rating. The terms 

6 L40 and L70 appear in the NOPR. The L 

7 categories, if you will, are related to solid 

8 state lighting, L70 being one of the more 

9 common terms, and that is regarded when an LED 

10 has lost 70 percent of its original, 30 

11 percent of its original flux, thank you. 

12 Anyway, the point we wanted to 

13 clarify is that for HID we talk about 40 

14 percent of life for metal halide and 50 

15 percent of life for high pressure sodium and 

16 mercury vapor lamps. 

17 In most of the testing that has 

18 been done to date, the bulk of the data that 

19 manufacturers have on hand is about that 40 

20 percent rated life. We want to stick to that 

21 figure as often as able, because that means we 

22 can use all our historic data and don't have 

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1 to retest everything. 

2 MALE PARTICIPANT: With concern to 

3 lumen maintenance. 

4 MR. BOESENBERG: Yes, as relates 

5 to lumen maintenance. Another point we wanted 

6 to bring up, or wanted to raise for your 

7 awareness, is that a lot of HID lamp testing, 

8 since it's not been heavily regulated in the 

9 past, that testing has been done at factories 

10 post-production. 

11 And a lot of these factories, or 

12 at least enough of them to concern us, are 

13 NVLAP certified. NVLAP being the typical 

14 certification that DOE allows something to be 

15 tested, if we do testing in-house. So that is 

16 a consideration regarding testing and the 

17 capabilities and timing and cost. 

18 We're concerned about delaying of 

19 product to market if a full 40 percent life 

20 test becomes required, because this is a very 

21 long-lived light source. And so if we test 40 

22 percent that's quite a long time, could be up 

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1 to two years sometimes. 

2 So we'll hope that there will be 

3 options for beginning testing, doing some 

4 initial values and then completing later. And 

5 if, you know, settling out. We do that in 

6 many other programs, whether it's DOE or 

7 EnergyStar. 

8 And, lastly, we do believe that 

9 tests for correlated color, temperature and 

10 CRI are appropriate but we want to point out 

11 that variation of color within HID lamps can 

12 be quite significant due to manufacturing 

13 variation, and also in the lamp types and 

14 their orientation during operation. 

15 We don't think that lamp color, 

16 whether CRI or CCT, should be a factor in 

17 determining product classes for energy 

18 efficiency testing. We do agree with the 

19 possibility of its use as far as delineating 

20 classes, particularly if those will be used to 

21 set exempted categories. 

22 But, I spoke briefly with Tina 

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1 before we started and one of the points we'll 

2 make and reiterate throughout the discussion 

3 as it comes up is that the variation of the 

4 products and production, production variation 

5 more accurately, in HID lamp is quite large. 

6 And when you're talking about something that 

7 goes way up high on a pole or up in a highly 

8 elevated ceiling, variation from one product 

9 to another is not nearly as noticeable. 

10 We have a much tighter band of 

11 tolerance or production variation on consumer 

12 products because they're usually right next to 

13 each other in the fixtures there and when 

14 there's a lot of difference, you'd notice it. 

15 HID is not really in that 

16 category, so we talk more about ranges of 

17 performance than a single-point curve. And 

18 some of my experts will talk about that later 

19 on. And that's all I have, thank you. 

20 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Other 

21 comments, opening remarks, here at the outset? 

22 No one else in the room? Did I understand 

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1 you, are you thinking that if they want to 

2 comment online, they can do so vocally? 

3 MS. SYDNOR: They can, but we need 

4 them, if they are not speaking, to mute their 

5 phones because we are still getting a lot of 

6 feedback. 

7 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay, so once 

8 again, I'd request from here at Forrestal, if 

9 you're not -- please mute your phones because 

10 we're still getting feedback on the line here 

11 in the broadcast over the room. 

12 But let me ask at this point, 

13 anybody who's joined us via the web, would you 

14 like to make opening remarks at this point? I 

15 heard somebody, please speak up. Okay, good. 

16 So thanks to all of you for muting 

17 your phones, that's working better now. Then 

18 let's proceed with the slides. Michael. 

19 MR. MYER: Yes, regarding the 

20 comments I think it is important to just point 

21 out it is a lamp test procedure and at 

22 periods/times, ballasts do need to come up for 

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1 just different reasons. But I think those 

2 will be apparent in the test procedure. 

3 From time to time we'll see yellow 

4 boxes at the bottom of slides. They are issue 

5 boxes, they are a request for comment. They 

6 do correlate to the NOPR itself in terms of 

7 numbering and text. So at times we'll stop 

8 and pause and ask for comment about the 

9 material that was just presented. 

10 In early December, the Federal 

11 Register published this notice of proposed 

12 test procedure. That started a 75-day comment 

13 period and that 75-day comment period ends 

14 11:59 Eastern on Tuesday, February 28th. 

15 From here I will just briefly 

16 touch on statute and context. And then I will 

17 turn over the proposed HID lamp test 

18 procedures to my colleagues, Lindsay Steele 

19 and Heidi Steward. 

20 Briefly the regulatory history 

21 started out in 1975 with EPCA itself, Energy 

22 Policy Conservation Act. That actually just 

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1 started the whole program itself, creating the 

2 authority for test procedures and energy 

3 conservation standards. 

4 A little bit after that, the 

5 Department of Energy was directed to a 

6 determination for HID lamps. The final 

7 determination was published July 1 of 2010, 

8 that did determine that test procedures and 

9 energy conservation standards were technically 

10 feasible, economically justified and would 

11 result in significant energy savings. 

12 That final determination then 

13 started the next process of the test 

14 procedure, which is where we are today with 

15 the proposed test procedure, bringing us to 

16 our process and our schedule. 

17 We are currently in the NOPR 

18 phase, shown by the green arrow to the left, 

19 and we are moving into the final rule stage. 

20 As I mentioned, the key dates here, the notice 

21 was published December 15th, as I said before. 

22 That starts a 75-day comment period which 

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1 ends on February 28th. And a projected final 

2 rule to establish test procedure will be 

3 January 1, 2013. 

4 At this time I'm going to turn 

5 over the presentation to Lindsay Steele, who 

6 will discuss standards and other related 

7 aspects of the test procedures. 

8 MR. STEELE: Good morning. Here 

9 we're going to discuss the industry standards 

10 for HID lamps that were used to develop these 

11 test procedures. 

12 DOE reviewed current industry 

13 standards, best practices and technological 

14 developments and concluded that the existing 

15 industry test procedures provide all elements 

16 required to measure the required parameters 

17 and calculate the efficacy of HID lamps. The 

18 next several slides will list the relevant 

19 industry standards. 

20 Part of the photometric lamp 

21 characteristic measurements requires 

22 determination of color rendering index and 

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1 correlated color temperature, CRI and CCT 

2 respectively, of an HID lamp's output. 

3 I should mention DOE is 

4 considering color metrics to delineate to the 

5 equipment classes in the HID lamp energy 

6 conservation standard. 

7 The International Commission on 

8 Illumination, or CIE standards referenced in 

9 these test procedures, are shown here, CIE 

10 13.3 and CIE 15. These standards will be 

11 incorporated by reference into the Code of 

12 Federal Regulations. 

13 The HID lamp electrical 

14 characteristics are contained in the combined 

15 American National Standards Institute, or ANSI 

16 Standard, C78.389. And the ANSI Standards 

17 here contain details on the equipment 

18 requirements, on lamp aging, warm-up, 

19 stabilization and the electrical 

20 characterization measurements themselves. 

21 In the case of an HID directional 

22 lamp, which will be defined in a few moments 

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1 and discussed shortly, is basically a lamp 

2 that produces a beam. And that standard 

3 referencing directional lamps is ANSI C78.379. 

4 And again, we're proposing to incorporate 

5 these by reference in the Code of Federal 

6 Regulations. 

7 The last two standards needed for 

8 these test procedures are from the 

9 Illuminating Engineering Society of North 

10 America, or the IES. The HID test procedures 

11 require measurement of HID lamp lumen 

12 maintenance. LM-47 contains the methods and 

13 measurement details to determine lumen 

14 maintenance. 

15 As far as HID lamp output and 

16 color measurements, those are described in the 

17 IES Standard LM-51, and the references 

18 therein. And again, we will be incorporating 

19 these by reference in the Code of Federal 

20 Regulations. 

21 Finally, for this portion of the 

22 presentation, a quick mention about standby 

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1 mode and off mode energy usage. DOE regulates 

2 HID lamps as commercial and industrial 

3 equipment and they do not require measurement 

4 of either standby or off mode energy usage, 

5 unlike counterparts or products that are 

6 considered consumer or residential which do 

7 consider standby and off mode energy usage if 

8 it's feasible to do the measurements. 

9 HID lamps do not operate in either 

10 standby or off mode. Their primary function 

11 being to produce light. Therefore, DOE is 

12 proposing not to measure either standby or off 

13 mode energy usage in these test procedures. 

14 At this point, I'll hand over the 

15 podium to Heidi Steward. 

16 MR. BROOKMAN: Questions or 

17 comments so far? I see none. Okay. 

18 MS. STEWARD: Okay, let's go on to 

19 the actual proposed test procedures. We'll 

20 start with definitions. 

21 We looked at the definitions 

22 within EPCA and determined six of them were 

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1 relevant to HID lamp test procedures as 

2 written. This is just housekeeping. We're 

3 moving them from a subsection to a parent 

4 section. We propose to adopt these with no 

5 changes. 

6 Within 10 CFR 430, we found four 

7 definitions that are useful to this test 

8 procedure. We propose to copy them from the 

9 Consumer Code to Commercial Code. 

10 The only change we propose is to 

11 lamp wattage. We are trying to make it more 

12 generic. The current version reference is in 

13 IES standards to define the aging period. We 

14 propose to broaden this to allow other 

15 relevant industry standards to be used as 

16 necessary. 

17 We did determine that six 

18 additional definitions were needed to create a 

19 full test procedure so we will talk about 

20 these more in the next few slides. 

21 For more appropriate 

22 characterization of HID lamps, DOE proposes to 

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1 distinguish directional lamps by distribution 

2 rather than [lamp] shape, which also allows 

3 the possibility of future lamps having 

4 different shapes or forms. 

5 We reviewed definitions for 

6 directional lamps with optical characteristics 

7 similar to those of HID directional lamps, for 

8 example incandescent reflector lamps, and 

9 found that definitions for reflector lamps 

10 typically focus on the construction of the 

11 lamp and not the direction in which the light 

12 leaves the lamp. 

13 Existing HID lamps that would be 

14 considered directional are offered in various 

15 bulb shapes. For example, R40, R111, Part 20, 

16 Part 38. Future lamps may take different non17 conforming shapes and forms while providing 

18 similar light output delivery. Therefore, the 

19 proposed DOE definition is based on the 

20 directional delivery of light output and not 

21 the construction of the lamp. 

22 The proposed definition is based 

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1 on the EU definition, which was adopted as the 

2 standard by EnergyStar. So the proposed 

3 definition for directional lamp is, 

4 directional lamp means a lamp emitting at 

5 least 80 percent light output within a solid 

6 angle of pi steradians corresponding to a cone 

7 with and angle of 120 percent. 

8 In other rulemakings, NEMA 

9 commented that efficacy doesn't work as a 

10 realistic measure of directional lamps. So we 

11 distinguish directional lamps with a lamp's 

12 light distribution or beam angle. 

13 So the proposed definition for 

14 beam angle is, beam angle means the beam 

15 angle, or angles, as measured according to the 

16 requirements of ANSI C78.379, including 

17 complex beam angles as described in ANSI 

18 C78.379, Appendix A. 

19 There are three types of lamps 

20 covered under this HID lamp test procedure, 

21 metal halide and mercury vapor lamps have 

22 already been defined. We needed to add a 

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1 definition for high-pressure sodium lamp, so 

2 here it is. 

3 NEMA recommended we propose this 

4 based on ANSI C82.9, which is thus, high 

5 pressure sodium lamp means a high intensity 

6 discharge lamp in which the major portion of 

7 the light is produced by radiation from sodium 

8 vapor operating at a partial pressure of about 

9 6,670 pascals, approximately 0.066 atmospheres 

10 or 50 torr or greater. 

11 DOE notes that EPCA defines lamp 

12 efficacy to mean the lumen output of a lamp 

13 divided by its wattage, expressed in lumens 

14 per watt. This proposed definition interprets 

15 the EPCA definition for the rulemaking. We 

16 are using rated luminous flux because this 

17 calculation is being used for a statistical 

18 sample rather than an individual lamp. 

19 Yes, there's a question. 

20 MR. BROOKMAN: Yes, Susan, please. 

21 MS. ANDERSON: There may be a 

22 point but I'll wait until you finish all the 

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1 definitions. 

2 MS. STEWARD: Thank you. One 

3 subset of HID lamps are the self-ballasted 

4 lamps. They can be used as replacements for 

5 other lamps in existing fixtures with no 

6 external ballasts. 

7 For example, a metal halide PAR 

8 lamp might be used as a direct replacement for 

9 a halogen lamp used in a retail space. 

10 The proposed definition for self11 ballasted lamp for HID lamps is, self12 ballasted lamp means a lamp unit that 

13 incorporates all elements that are necessary 

14 for the starting and stable operation of the 

15 lamp in a permanent enclosure and does not 

16 include any replaceable or interchangeable 

17 parts. 

18 A basic model defines a class of 

19 lamps that are similar in design and 

20 specification to the extent that their 

21 performance can be determined by a 

22 representative sample. This definition is 

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1 global and used for most basic models, not 

2 just for lamps. 

3 The proposed definition for basic 

4 model is, basic model, with respect to HID 

5 lamps, means all units of a given type of 

6 covered equipment or class thereof, 

7 manufactured by one manufacturer, having the 

8 same primary energy source and which have 

9 essentially identical electrical, physical and 

10 functional or hydraulic characteristics that 

11 affect energy consumption, energy efficiency, 

12 water consumption or water efficiency and are 

13 rated to operate at given lamp type and 

14 wattage. 

15 Again, this is a more global 

16 definition, thus the hydraulics and water 

17 portions. So our opening Issue 1a, DOE 

18 invites comment. 

19 MR. BROOKMAN: Susan, you're 

20 first, but please use the microphone. 

21 MS. ANDERSON: What we want to 

22 start with is looking at lamp efficacy. And 

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1 what we're concerned about is when it talking 

2 about rounding the value to the nearest tenth, 

3 because of the wide variation in measurement 

4 you can get in HID lamps, you're lucky to 

5 round to the nearest 100. You know, so it's 

6 just not practical to round HID lamps to such 

7 a small unit of measure. 

8 MR. COOK: There's an implied 

9 accuracy that's not achievable. 

10 MS. ANDERSON: That just doesn't 

11 exist. 

12 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay, thanks, 

13 Keith. 

14 MS. ANDERSON: And the other thing 

15 is that the appropriate definition for lamp 

16 efficacy as far as the industry is concerned 

17 is in IES RP-16, and we would refer you to 

18 that. And them LM-51 being the standard that 

19 describes how you measure it. 

20 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Keith. 

21 MR. COOK: Keith Cook, Philips 

22 Electronics. Concerning your basic model, 

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1 NEMA doesn't understand why that's being put 

2 into a test standard. That should be part of 

3 a lamp specification, not a test standard. So 

4 it needs to be dealt with, I think, separately 

5 from this particular activity. 

6 MS. STEWARD: Thank you. 

7 MR. BROOKMAN: And, Susan. 

8 MS. ANDERSON: We would also, 

9 industry would like to work with the DOE in 

10 determining those basic models, too, to have 

11 some input on that. 

12 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Joe, please 

13 go ahead. 

14 MR. HOWLEY: Just one other 

15 comment that we have talked about in industry 

16 is that we really don't see the need to have 

17 hydraulic or water consumption in the 

18 definition of HID basic model. We think that 

19 probably could be removed or it could be 

20 confusing. 

21 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay, thank you. 

22 MR. COOK: It's dangerous. 

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1 MR. BROOKMAN: Has the Department 

2 not determined what the basic models are yet? 

3 MR. MYER: I'm going to step out 

4 here, Michael Myer, Pacific Northwest 

5 Laboratory. The definition with the 

6 hydraulic, this is a standard definition used 

7 for a lot of the terms for -- in the 

8 certification, in 429. It works for a lot of 

9 the technologies regardless of what it is. 

10 It's kind of generic. 

11 Also there's some, I don't want to 

12 use the word ambiguity, but there's some 

13 leeway in the manufacturers to determine their 

14 own basic model rather than saying it's a 100 

15 to 200 lumens type of metric. It allows the 

16 flexibility of determination of the basic 

17 model. That's why it's a broad definition. 

18 MR. COOK: Regardless, I guess 

19 we're still confused as to why we even bring 

20 that up in a test standard though. 

21 MR. MYER: You need to know what, 

22 you're testing a basic model to -- 

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1 MR. COOK: No, you're testing a 

2 lamp regardless of the model. 

3 MR. MYER: I'm suggesting here 

4 that you could use a 100 watt metal halide and 

5 a 150 watt metal halide and they could be 

6 characterized the same or you could separate 

7 them out. 

8 MR. COOK: But the testing itself 

9 would be the same. 

10 MS. ANDERSON: See, we just think 

11 basic model should be part of the lamp 

12 standard rulemaking, not the test and 

13 measurement rulemaking. 

14 MR. MYER: All right, we'll take 

15 that under advisement and review. 

16 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Good, thank 

17 you. Joe. 

18 MR. HOWLEY: Just another comment 

19 on lumen maintenance. Alex mentioned this in 

20 his opening comments. That just a continued 

21 concern about lumen maintenance being 

22 suggested at 70 percent of lamp life versus 40 

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1 percent of lamp life for metal halide and 50 

2 percent of lamp life for mercury vapor and 

3 high-pressure sodium lamps. 

4 That is the industry-standard way 

5 that we've measured lumen maintenance for 50 

6 years and that's what all our modeling and our 

7 values are based on today. Also some concerns 

8 about the use of rated values and measured 

9 values in the definition as well were raised 

10 within the group. So we'll provide some 

11 further written comments on that. 

12 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay, thank you. 

13 Susan, please go ahead. 

14 MS. ANDERSON: Yes, one other 

15 thing about lumen maintenance and what I would 

16 refer you to. Say for example, my company's 

17 literature if you look at how we publish lumen 

18 maintenance information for metal halide 

19 lamps, in particular, it varies over a range. 

20 I mean it's not like fluorescent or 

21 incandescent or halogen where we can come up 

22 with a specific defined -- 

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1 MR. BROOKMAN: Susan, I'm sorry, 

2 you need to get closer to the microphone. 

3 Thank you. 

4 MS. ANDERSON: Okay. There's so 

5 much variation in the lamps when we publish 

6 our lumen maintenance curves we actually show 

7 its region that the maintenance is going to be 

8 within this region. It's not a single line of 

9 data. 

10 MR. BROOKMAN: So as Alex said at 

11 the outset that's a standard characteristic of 

12 these products? 

13 MS. ANDERSON: These are discharge 

14 lamps, yes. It's something that has to be 

15 taken into consideration when setting 

16 standards for these lamps. 

17 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay, thank you. 

18 Michael. 

19 MR. MYER: Michael Myer, Pacific 

20 Northwest National Laboratory. I just want to 

21 followup on the comment about the industry 

22 standard. That's not published anywhere, we 

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1 did do some research, am I incorrect on that, 

2 that there's no actual ANSI or document that 

3 says 40 percent for HPS, 50 percent. And the 

4 reason I'm following up for this is that 

5 there's a statement about changing it now 

6 would invalidate some manufacturers' data. 

7 Characterizing the term, I think, accurately. 

8 My concern is, do all 

9 manufacturers use this value as of now, or is 

10 it just kind of an industry, we all do it but, 

11 you know, as I said, is there a document out 

12 there that says that's what everyone does and 

13 therefore all people do that? 

14 MR. BROOKMAN: Susan. 

15 MS. ANDERSON: You might want to 

16 direct that question to Dr. Ron Daubach who is 

17 on the line, or Susan Callahan that's on the 

18 line. Ron Daubach is head of our test and 

19 measurement group. And Susan is one of our 

20 engineers for HID. 

21 MR. BROOKMAN: So, Dr. Ron 

22 Daubach, are you on the line? Can you talk to 

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1 us? 

2 MALE PARTICIPANT: Or Susan. 

3 MR. BROOKMAN: Or Susan. 

4 MS. ANDERSON: Or Susan Callahan. 

5 The question -- Ron, are you on there? 

6 DR. DAUBACH: Hello, can you hear 

7 me? 

8 MR. BROOKMAN: Now we can hear 

9 you, yes. 

10 DR. DAUBACH: Yes, I heard the 

11 question but there's no consensus standard 

12 that states that these lights test definitions 

13 of 40 percent or lumen maintenance 

14 definitions. 

15 MS. ANDERSON: We did all agree 

16 with the NEMA companies coming together to 

17 prepare for this that all of us use that same, 

18 that's what we use so that's what all of our 

19 historic data is based on. Measured at 40 

20 percent of rated life for metal halide, 50 

21 percent of rated life for mercury and high22 pressure sodium. 

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1 MR. BROOKMAN: So is that an 

2 established policy at NEMA? 

3 MR. HOWLEY: Well, it is, what the 

4 industry does, if you look in our catalogues 

5 and you look at where ever we list lumen 

6 maintenance data, we all list it based on the 

7 same techniques. Forty percent for metal 

8 halide and 50 percent for high-pressure sodium 

9 and mercury vapor lamps. 

10 MR. BROOKMAN: So irrespective of 

11 whether it's an established procedure or 

12 policy in NEMA, all of you use it and it can 

13 be traced in your product literature? 

14 MR. HOWLEY: Right, it's how we 

15 have developed those numbers over the past 50 

16 years and everybody uses the same life points 

17 when they publish that data. 

18 MR. BROOKMAN: Michael. 

19 MR. MYER: Well, I had a question 

20 related to a possible future energy 

21 conservation standard. If they're, I don't 

22 want to say competitive, or equal technology, 

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1 is there an issue in rating one at 50 percent 

2 and one at 40 percent of rated life rather 

3 than not rating them point at the same point 

4 in life? Also then you have apples to [ten5 apples comparison when you're starting to do 

6 your lumen values over time. 

7 MS. ANDERSON: If you look at the 

8 applications of the consensus today, it's not 

9 an issue, because mercury and high-pressure 

10 sodium are typically used outdoors. And in 

11 most cases high-pressure sodium has replaced 

12 mercury. 

13 By the time you get indoors where 

14 metal halide is typically used, it's used in, 

15 say, applications where at one time 

16 fluorescent was used or fluorescent has now 

17 replaced metal halide. Those are both 

18 traditionally measured at 40 percent of rated 

19 life. 

20 So if you look at the applications 

21 and where they're actually used and the other 

22 sources that are used in those same 

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1 applications, then they're measured at 

2 comparable periods in the life timeline of the 

3 lamp. 

4 MR. HOWLEY: Right, I would agree 

5 with that, Susan. High-pressure sodium -- 

6 MR. BROOKMAN: Joe Howley. 

7 MR. HOWLEY: Yes. High pressure 

8 sodium replaced mercury vapor over the past 50 

9 years and that's why the data points were 

10 similar, the lumen maintenance values were 

11 similar, because generally customers were 

12 looking at those two products and the lumen 

13 maintenance of those two products. 

14 When metal halide was developed it 

15 often was competing against fluorescent for 

16 high color rendering index type of 

17 applications, which is why that became rated 

18 at 40 percent to be equivalent to the 40 

19 percent life ratings on fluorescent at the 

20 time. 

21 So that's why these values have 

22 been developed over the past four or five 

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1 decades the way they have. That's the kind of 

2 historical basis. But more importantly that's 

3 what all our data is tested on and all of our 

4 ratings are based on, are those values. 

5 So industry certainly would not 

6 want to change this approach after all these 

7 decades. We'd want to maintain the same 

8 approach. 

9 MR. BROOKMAN: Michael, do you 

10 have any additional questions? Or DOE any 

11 additional questions? No? Not at this time. 

12 MR. MYER: Actually, I hope with 

13 written comments, Michael Myer, Pacific 

14 Northwest National Laboratory, that cannot be 

15 expressed mathematically the spend of lumen 

16 maintenance tolerance is what you're 

17 describing, Susan? 

18 MS. ANDERSON: We can certainly 

19 show you data that we have that shows that 

20 range. 

21 MR. MYER: Thank you. 

22 MS. ANDERSON: And, as I said, 

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1 it's public information in our literature. 

2 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay, thank you, 

3 Susan. Alex. 

4 MR. BOESENBERG: One other point 

5 not related to this. I think we're finished 

6 with that discussion. A point we wanted to 

7 raise in at least two of the definitions, and 

8 anywhere else in the rule it might appear. 

9 I'll speak right now to the 

10 definition of lamp electrical power input. It 

11 defines total electrical power input to the 

12 lamp including both arc and cathode power 

13 where appropriate at the reference condition 

14 in units of watts. 

15 We want to point out that HID 

16 lamps have electrodes, they do not have 

17 cathodes. So there is no separation between 

18 arc power and total lamp power for these 

19 products. I think cathode is a carryover from 

20 some other technology. Fluorescent 

21 technology. So sort of a partial recognition 

22 of that and when you say "as appropriate" we 

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1 want to point out it's never appropriate. 

2 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay, thank you. 

3 That was a useful discussion. Any additional 

4 comments on definitions before we move on? 

5 And thanks again, for those of you that are 

6 joining us via the web, for keeping your 

7 telephones on mute. That's now working pretty 

8 well here in the room. I'm going to go back 

9 to Heidi. 

10 MS. STEWARD: Thank you. This is 

11 just a housekeeping definition. Alex, I know 

12 you're going to love it. This is a ballast 

13 efficiency definition. We are proposing to 

14 standardize this definition across the 

15 technologies, we are not proposing to measure 

16 ballast efficiency for this. We are just 

17 amending this definition to harmonize it. 

18 Our proposed modified definition 

19 is, "Ballast efficiency' means, in the case of 

20 a high-intensity discharge fixture, the 

21 efficiency of a lamp and ballast combination, 

22 expressed as a percentage, and calculated in 

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1 accordance with the following formula, 

2 Efficiency = Lamp electrical power input 

3 divided by ballast power input." 

4 We have another issue box, so we 

5 invite comment on the proposed amendment. 

6 That ends the interpretive dance portion. And 

7 I will be handing off to Mr. Lindsay Steele 

8 for the test methods. 

9 MR. STEELE: Okay, the next 

10 several slides we're going to talk about test 

11 methods for measuring energy efficiency of HID 

12 lamps. Here we're going to talk about the 

13 test conditions, equipment specifications and 

14 measurement requirements for HID lamps in 

15 these test procedures. 

16 This will establish a standard 

17 measurement practice, minimize potential 

18 errors and obtain consistent and reproducible 

19 test measurement results. 

20 As mentioned previously in 

21 comments a ballast is required to operate an 

22 HID lamp, especially for stable operation. 

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1 And this was borne out in the metal halide 

2 lamp ballast test procedure of 2010. And in 

3 that test procedure an ambient temperature of 

4 25C was required as well as an air speed of 

5 less than a half a meter per second. 

6 These are typical laboratory 

7 conditions. They are quantified and 

8 reproducible. And this brings us to Issues 2 

9 and 3 where we're requesting comment on the 

10 ambient temperature and the air speed 

11 requirements as pulled from the metal halide 

12 lamp ballast test procedure. 

13 MR. BROOKMAN: Susan. 

14 MS. ANDERSON: While this is 

15 appropriate for ballast it is not appropriate 

16 for HID lamps. The majority of the HID lamps 

17 are actually a lamp within an envelope. So 

18 they're totally enclosed. It's the arc tube 

19 that's the lamp and then the envelope seals it 

20 in. So air speed is not an issue whatsoever. 

21 Where we do have double ended 

22 lamps where it is the bare arc tube, those are 

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1 tested inside enclosed fixtures, because that 

2 is the only way they can be used, because 

3 there are safety issues with those lamps. And 

4 right now we have standards for up to the 400 

5 watt double-ended lamps for those enclosures. 

6 And the industry is in the process 

7 now, already in the process, of defining 

8 standards for those enclosures for the higher 

9 wattage double-ended lamps. So in no case 

10 whatsoever is air speed an issued when you're 

11 testing HID lamps. 

12 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Tina. 

13 DR. KAARSBERG: Does the 

14 established procedure in the enclosures have 

15 any temperature requirements? Or any 

16 requirements that are related to temperature? 

17 MS. ANDERSON: I'm not enough of a 

18 technical expert to answer that but Susan 

19 Callahan from our company is on the line. 

20 MR. BROOKMAN: Susan. 

21 MS. CALLAHAN: Yes. 

22 MS. ANDERSON: Susan is involved 

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1 in writing the new standards for the higher 

2 wattage lamps. 

3 MR. BROOKMAN: Susan, did you hear 

4 the question? 

5 MS. CALLAHAN: Yes, I did. There 

6 is no temperature requirement index. 

7 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. 

8 MR. HOWLEY: HID lamps are not 

9 affected by temperature to any great extent, 

10 unlike fluorescent lamps, which there's a huge 

11 temperature impact in operating a fluorescent 

12 lamp. There really is no meaningful impact in 

13 operating HID due to temperature range, the 

14 normal temperature range. 

15 MR. BROOKMAN: The normal 

16 temperature range. Yes, Michael, go ahead. 

17 MR. MYER: I believe the 

18 temperature stated in LM-51, the temperature 

19 range is -- 

20 MS. ANDERSON: I would ask you 

21 address that to Susan Callahan. 

22 MR. MYER: Susan Callahan, can you 

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1 confirm that there is a temperature range 

2 specified in LM-51? 

3 MS. CALLAHAN: Excuse me? 

4 MR. MYER: Susan Anderson asked if 

5 you could confirm the temperature range, if 

6 there is one listed, in LM-51. 

7 MS. CALLAHAN: I don't believe 

8 there is. 

9 MR. MYER: If we could double10 check. 

11 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay, so if you 

12 could address that in your written comments 

13 that would be helpful. Thank you, Susan. Let 

14 me ask those who are joining us online to re15 mute your telephones, if you would please. I 

16 have comments on this section. Lindsay, are 

17 there issues that you want to raise at this 

18 point? 

19 MS. ANDERSON: The air speed is 

20 also an issue with us. 

21 MR. BROOKMAN: Right. Yes, okay. 

22 Got that. Anything else you want to raise in 

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1 this section, Lindsay? 

2 MR. STEELE: No, nothing. 

3 MR. BROOKMAN: Yes, please, your 

4 name. 

5 MR. MCGARAGHAN: Hi, Doug. My 

6 apologies, I missed the introductions earlier. 

7 This is Mike McGaraghan here on behalf of 

8 California Investor-Owned Utilities, PG&E, 

9 SCE, and separate utilities. 

10 And I just had a quick question on 

11 this. My understanding is that you're 

12 incorporating ANSI C78.389 by reference and 

13 then these two bullets here, ambient 

14 temperature 25 plus or minus five. And then 

15 airspeeds are listed. My read of 389 just 

16 said "draft-free." 

17 So I guess the question is are you 

18 amending 389? And this will apply to, I'm 

19 sure, a lot of slides today. Are you 

20 incorporating by reference and making 

21 amendments to 389? And if so can you identify 

22 as you go through the slides where it's a 

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1 change? 

2 MR. BROOKMAN: Michael. 

3 MR. MYER: This is Michael Myer. 

4 I can address the draft-free comment. 

5 Actually Keith Cook, many years ago, for those 

6 in the room that may not know the story here, 

7 the term draft-free was something we did in 

8 the metal halide lamp ballast test procedure 

9 because the air speed, my understanding, was 

10 related to the stability. And it is 

11 ambiguous, it says draft-free. 

12 And in the final rule for Metal 

13 Halide Lamp Ballast Test Procedure we did a 

14 thorough review of multiple different 

15 documents. IES LM documents, ANSI documents. 

16 Not just lamps, but also fixtures and there's 

17 a variety of different answers. Some gave 

18 speeds, some of them had different speeds. 

19 The term still is draft-free. 

20 Keith, about two or three years ago at that 

21 public meeting, Keith said in the old days 

22 they did a tissue test. Meaning a piece of 

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1 Kleenex, if it didn't move, that was their 

2 definition of draft-free. That opened up a 

3 whole new can of worms. 

4 So we actually finalized on the 

5 IEC definition of 0.5 meters per second 

6 squared in that test procedure. Again, this 

7 is, best way I would describe, is a 

8 harmonization issue, because they used draft9 free and the question was raised at that 

10 public meeting, what is draft-free. We then 

11 published a final rule that set it at that 

12 speed. So we were just continuing, again, 

13 that draft-free issue into this rule. 

14 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay, thanks for 

15 the explanation. Yes, Mike? 

16 MR. MCGARAGHAN: Great, thank you. 

17 So the only follow-on there is just as you go 

18 if you could try to point out if there are 

19 places where you're adopting verbatim these 

20 ANSI standards versus places where there might 

21 be amendments to what's actually in the 

22 standards. You may not always catch it but if 

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1 you are aware of those that would be helpful. 

2 Thanks. 

3 MR. BROOKMAN: Additional comments 

4 in this section, because we're about to move 

5 on. 

6 DR. DAUBACH: Can you hear me? 

7 MR. BROOKMAN: Yes, please say 

8 your name. 

9 DR. DAUBACH: Hello? 

10 MR. BROOKMAN: Say your name. 

11 DR. DAUBACH: Hi, this is Ron 

12 Daubach, Osram Sylvania. I think I missed a 

13 little part of this and I heard some mention 

14 of LM-51 having a ambient temperature 

15 requirement. But that's qualified by saying 

16 that it's primarily because of measurement 

17 instrumentation and not due to lamp operation. 

18 So I didn't know whether that was pointed 

19 out. 

20 MR. MYER: Although HID lamps may 

21 not be affected by temperature is there a 

22 value in setting the temperature for a 

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1 correlation relative photometry or lamp 

2 ballast factor. 

3 Some of the other light loss 

4 factors you need to correlate later on. You 

5 know, this 25 degrees is a pretty de facto 

6 standard for most light sources. Is there a 

7 problem with setting it? This gentleman just 

8 said that it's a testing equipment issue. 

9 MR. BROOKMAN: Do you have an 

10 answer for that, Ron? 

11 DR. DAUBACH: Yes, there's a mic 

12 here and I hear myself so I'm sorry. No, I 

13 don't have a problem with the 25 plus/minus 

14 five. I just didn't hear all of the question 

15 that led up to that. 

16 MR. BROOKMAN: So I thought that 

17 previously Susan said that temperature range 

18 was not a part of the LM, is that correct, 

19 Keith? 

20 MS. ANDERSON: No, my comments 

21 were about airspeed. Let me clarify that, 

22 about airspeed. 

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1 MR. BROOKMAN: Airspeed, okay. So 

2 Michael, repeat your question so that Ron can 

3 hear it again. Ron, here we go. 

4 MR. COOK: He answered it I think 

5 and I understand what's going on. Ron makes a 

6 good point and the fact that really, again, 

7 the lamp is not affected by it but the test 

8 setup is affected by it. And as Joe pointed 

9 out ballasts are very affected by the 

10 temperature. 

11 And so we may want to go back and 

12 review the temperature requirements again, 

13 because from a test setup standpoint if you 

14 will be effecting the results of the lamp due 

15 to the ballast itself changing then we may 

16 want to hold that temperature a little bit 

17 more precisely. So we will include something 

18 in our written comments on that. 

19 MR. MYER: Thank you. 

20 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay, that made 

21 sense. 

22 MR. STEELE: Moving on. Now we're 

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1 going to discuss the electric and photometric 

2 measurements of the HID lamps. As mentioned 

3 previously the electric characteristics are 

4 based on the ANSI standards and the 

5 photometric measurements are from the IES 

6 standards with also reference to CIE standards 

7 for the color parameters. 

8 Again, we'll remind you DOE is 

9 considering colorimetric to delineate the 

10 equipment classes in the HID lamp energy 

11 conservation standard and also point out here 

12 that we have luminous intensity as a 

13 photometric measurement and that is for 

14 directional lamps to determine beam angle from 

15 the light output distribution. 

16 Okay, we'll move on. 

17 MR. MYER: Actually, this is 

18 Michael Myer. Going back to an earlier 

19 comment about color temperature and ranges. 

20 There is no chromaticity standard for HID 

21 lamps, like there are for fluorescents and SL. 

22 Can NEMA, when they provide 

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1 written comments, provide what some of those 

2 tolerances or ranges should be for color 

3 temperature for the different, you know, plus 

4 or minus what for a 4,000K lamp, because based 

5 on some of the earlier comments. 

6 MR. HOWLEY: We can discuss that, 

7 Michael. We haven't yet but we can discuss 

8 it. 

9 MR. BROOKMAN: Keith, please. 

10 MR. COOK: Keith Cook from 

11 Philips. Wouldn't that be part of the lamp 

12 standard though and not part of the test 

13 standard? 

14 MR. MYER: I would think that 

15 would go both ways. You need to know whatever 

16 tolerance you were testing to, I mean yes at 

17 some value would be the standard, but when you 

18 have to test to a tolerance. That's all I was 

19 asking. 

20 MR. COOK: You may have to specify 

21 the accuracy of the test setup, like is 

22 typically done for NVLAP approvals. But you 

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1 wouldn't necessarily be looking at it for a 

2 particular lamp. 

3 MR. BROOKMAN: Yes, Joanna Mauer. 

4 MS. MAUER: Could DOE describe a 

5 little bit about the rationale for potentially 

6 using color characteristics for establishing 

7 equipment classes? 

8 MR. BROOKMAN: Michael. 

9 MR. MYER: Well, the rationale is... 

10 it's still being explored. The Energy 

11 Conservation Standard is still in development. 

12 If you look at the European Union's they're 

13 definitely different, they have an HID 

14 standard and at certain color temperatures 

15 there are different efficacy requirements. 

16 For example, somewhere in the mid-5,000 range. 

17 I don't remember if it's 5,000 or 5,500 

18 kelvin. There's definitely a trade-off at 

19 some point that you might have to change 

20 something. 

21 We also in HID determination heard 

22 comments from NEMA, and others about, 

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1 essentially high pressure sodium if efficient 

2 but it has poor color rendering, low color 

3 rendering, aspects in the 20s depending on a 

4 standard HPS lamp. And it may not be a viable 

5 trade-off for certain other technologies. 

6 And so an equipment class might 

7 effected that way. We have heard opening 

8 comments from NEMA where they didn't 

9 discourage equipment classes but said maybe 

10 exclusions. So it's those type of aspects 

11 we're still looking at. 

12 MR. BROOKMAN: Tina. 

13 DR. KAARSBERG: Yes, this Tina 

14 Kaarsberg. I think it has to do with consumer 

15 utility and the trade-offs because.This is 

16 probably more important in some types of lamps 

17 than in the HID. But we're still 

18 exploring to what extent in those markets it 

19 might it be important for customer utility, 

20 what are the trade-offs, because if the 

21 customer utility requires a certain type of 

22 color temperature then what are efficiency 

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1 trade-offs. Even though the 

2 markets and applications are perhaps less 

3 sensitive in this one, weare still exploring 

4 that. 

5 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. 

6 MR. STEELE: Moving along now with 

7 the measurements of HID lamps. We're looking 

8 at power supply characteristics. The test 

9 procedures require specific power supply 

10 specifications to obtain consistent 

11 reproducible measurements. An HID lamp output 

12 can vary with a little bit of variation in the 

13 supply voltage. Obviously depending on the 

14 technology under test. 

15 So given the importance of the 

16 supply voltage we're going to take some 

17 precautions to minimize other contributions 

18 that can affect the lamp voltage and current. 

19 And this is quite a busy slide, but we list a 

20 few things here that are from the standards 

21 that address this. 

22 In particular we've got the 

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1 voltage supply wave shape being sinusoidal. 

2 The harmonic content of the supply voltage. 

3 And also the actual voltage regulation itself. 

4 The last two bullets here on power source 

5 impedance and the kVA rating is the ensure 

6 that the power supply used is capable of 

7 providing the appropriate power to the 

8 ballast. 

9 This brings us to Issue 4. We're 

10 inviting comments on the proposal to 

11 waveshape, voltage regulation, and power 

12 source impedance requirements from ANSI 

13 C78.389 in part and LM-51. 

14 MR. BROOKMAN: No comments on 

15 power supply characteristics. 

16 MR. STEELE: Another precaution to 

17 ensure consistent reproducible measurement or 

18 reduce errors in the test results -- 

19 MR. BROOKMAN: Hey, Lindsay, hang 

20 on. Comments? 

21 MS. ANDERSON: My comments will be 

22 about the next one. 

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1 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay, keep going. 

2 MR. STEELE: Okay, sorry. 

3 Reference ballast is required to operate the 

4 lamp per manufacturer's specifications. We 

5 don't want you to overdrive and damage the 

6 lamps or underdrive them and skew the test 

7 results. 

8 You can also use a power supply 

9 versus a specification ballast. Again, the 

10 goal here is to obtain valid, reproducible 

11 test measurement results. And that brings us 

12 to Issue Number 5. DOE invites comments on 

13 the proposal for reference ballast 

14 requirements and the appropriateness of 

15 adopting requirements as recommended in ANSI 

16 C78.389. 

17 MR. BROOKMAN: Joe Howley. 

18 MR. HOWLEY: Yes, NEMA did discuss 

19 this issue. Our comments are just to point 

20 out that there, reference ballasts are not, of 

21 course, required for self-ballasted lamps. 

22 They are self-contained. 

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1 And also that at this time lamps 

2 designed for operation only on electronic 

3 ballasts do not have a reference ballast. The 

4 industry has not created a reference ballast 

5 for electronic operation only lamps. This 

6 could create some issues going forward in that 

7 area. 

8 MR. MYER: This is Michael Myer. 

9 Just if it's designated, it says it clearly in 

10 the catalogue, electronic ballasts only and it 

11 would have a different ballast catalogue code 

12 so it's easily distinguishable? 

13 MS. ANDERSON: I mean, in our 

14 catalogue what we do is to list the ANSI 

15 reference for the ballast that operates that 

16 lamp, if one exists. 

17 MR. MYER: So you would do like M18 47, you know, I'm must throwing -- 

19 MS. ANDERSON: Yes. 

20 MR. BROOKMAN: So that exchange 

21 there between Susan and Michael, back and 

22 forth. So thank you, both of you. Other 

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1 comments related to reference ballast 

2 requirements? 

3 MR. STEELE: Thank you. 

4 MR. BROOKMAN: Mike, yes. 

5 MR. MCGARAGHAN: So is NEMA 

6 planning to propose reference ballast 

7 characteristics that operate only on electric 

8 ballasts, electronic ballasts? 

9 MR. BROOKMAN: Susan. 

10 MS. ANDERSON: That would actually 

11 be something that would be done through ANSI. 

12 And NEMA would work through ANSI to set up 

13 standards. And that's still an evolving 

14 portion of our industry, if you would have it. 

15 So that's all very new. 

16 MR. MCGARAGHAN: Okay. 

17 MR. BROOKMAN: Susan, does that 

18 indicate that that is something that is 

19 underway or you're considering getting 

20 underway? Or what is the status? 

21 MS. ANDERSON: Susan Callahan? 

22 MS. CALLAHAN: There's another 

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1 company working on the test methods for 

2 electronic ballasts. And it is my 

3 understanding that the lamp manufacturers are 

4 also working on what could be considered 

5 electric ballasts for the market place. 

6 MS. ANDERSON: Did everyone hear 

7 that? 

8 MR. BROOKMAN: I think that came 

9 through clear enough. Okay, thank you, Susan. 

10 MR. MCGARAGHAN: So when she says 

11 we, she's referring to the committee? 

12 MS. ANDERSON: Usually the way 

13 ANSI standards for lighting evolve is that the 

14 NEMA companies come together and come up with 

15 standards and present them to ANSI. And then 

16 ANSI typically adopts them. They become 

17 formal through ANSI. 

18 MR. MCGARAGHAN: And so, Mike 

19 McGaraghan again. I guess a question for DOE. 

20 Are you prepared to wait for an ANSI standard 

21 to finalize this test procedure, or what's 

22 your strategy to address lamps that can only 

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1 be operated on electronic ballasts in the 

2 meantime? 

3 MR. BROOKMAN: Michael Myer. 

4 MR. MYER: Michael Myer. I think 

5 we'd research it more. Offhand I would guess 

6 that electronic only would be a very small 

7 percentage of the current market because they 

8 would not be backward compatible since the 

9 vast majority of the market is magnetic right 

10 now. And then it also could be something 

11 that, depending on other characteristics, they 

12 would have other factors that would probably 

13 be before it. But we'll do more research and 

14 address it in the final. 

15 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. 

16 DR. KAARSBERG: This is one of 

17 those things, like many of these things, where 

18 the test procedure and the standard need to be 

19 in sync with each other. And we'll see how it 

20 goes in terms of the way we look at market 

21 shares and volume of shipments and those sorts 

22 of things> That's part of the standard 

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1 practice. 

2 MR. BROOKMAN: Thank you, Tina. 

3 Now, Joe. 

4 MR. HOWLEY: Just a comment that 

5 you may also look at this as an exempted 

6 category since there are a very limited number 

7 and they tend to be very high efficiency, if 

8 there's no standards for them. Just a 

9 possibility. 

10 MR. BROOKMAN: So written comments 

11 on that front I think would be useful. 

12 MR. MCGARAGHAN: Another question. 

13 Mike McGaraghan, on the issue NEMA raised 

14 about self-ballasted lamps. Again, it goes 

15 back to the question I asked earlier, what's 

16 the DOE strategy for incorporating changes to 

17 ANSI 389 in the federal test procedure? 

18 Because that C78.389 doesn't mention a 

19 procedure for self-ballasted lamps, that I'm 

20 aware of. 

21 So I think if you're going to move 

22 forward with a test procedure that would cover 

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1 them you would have to make a change to it. 

2 Is that correct? 

3 MR. MYER: Michael Myer, Pacific 

4 Northwest National Lab. I think we would, 

5 well first we would review it compared to 

6 self-ballasted CFLs to see how they're 

7 treating it. Obviously you couldn't have a 

8 reference ballast because you can't remove the 

9 ballast out of the bits. 

10 Again, self-ballasted HID lamps 

11 are also a very small market segment and we 

12 might have to address it differently. But 

13 research will be the starting point of, at 

14 least, with other technologies that are self15 ballasted and then how it's applicable or not 

16 applicable to this technology. And we'll 

17 address it and I will. 

18 MR. MCGARAGHAN: Another question 

19 on ballasts. Lamps that are designed to 

20 operate on probe-start and pulse-start 

21 ballasts. I guess this is perhaps a question 

22 for manufacturers. Does the current test 

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1 procedure give you enough guidance on how to 

2 measure that lamp? 

3 MR. BROOKMAN: Susan, please. 

4 MS. ANDERSON: We haven't 

5 discussed this, but if the reference ballast 

6 is pulse-start ballast, you know, if that's 

7 what the technology is. If that's the defined 

8 reference ballast I would think the 

9 measurements would be taken on the referenced 

10 ballast. 

11 MR. MYER: Michael Myer, are you 

12 asking about the lamps that have a dual start 

13 mechanism that can be either probe or pulse, 

14 essentially like Philips AllStart Lamp, what 

15 is the reference ballast there? 

16 MR. MCGARAGHAN: Yes. 

17 MR. MYER: And is that answer 

18 you're saying, Susan? 

19 MS. ANDERSON: Yes, I would think 

20 that would be the logical thing. If the 

21 reference ballast goes back to being in the 

22 probe start technology, rather, that's where 

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1 you would go. Whatever the technology is of 

2 the reference ballast, because most of those 

3 lamps are made, there are lamps that are made 

4 to retrofit into probe start applications. 

5 That's the primary one. 

6 MR. MCGARAGHAN: Okay, so I don't 

7 have an opinion at this point one way or 

8 another how it should be. I just wanted to 

9 make sure that the standard, as it's written, 

10 does have enough clarity and it sounds like at 

11 least Osram's got an opinion on how they would 

12 interpret it. If that's not how DOE intended 

13 it to be interpreted then my comment would be 

14 to address that in further detail. 

15 MR. BROOKMAN: So would NEMA 

16 intend to address this point in its written 

17 comments? Keith. 

18 MR. COOK: Yes, Keith Cook. Yes, 

19 we can address that. I think what we're 

20 finding is this is a very complex subject. 

21 We've got the self-ballasted, we have the 

22 AllStart type lamps. We have the HID, we have 

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1 probe start. It almost ends up being a 

2 specific test for each different type of lamp, 

3 which I don't think we're wanting to get into. 

4 But I'm not sure how we're going to address 

5 but we will add some comments to this. 

6 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay, thank you. 

7 Mike McGaraghan. 

8 MR. MCGARAGHAN: Mike McGaraghan. 

9 One final question on ballasts. In the 

10 reference in the ANSI standard, I think it's 

11 C85, I don't have it in front of me. But the 

12 one that has all the reference ballast 

13 characteristics in it. 

14 I notice there are different 

15 reference ballast characteristics based on 

16 lamp orientation, whether it's vertical, base17 up or horizontal. It seemed odd to me but I 

18 wanted to bring it up and if that is industry 

19 standard and that makes sense to the 

20 manufacturers then I won't push it. 

21 MS. ANDERSON: Now there are lamps 

22 that are only designed for base-up operation. 

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1 Some that are only base-down or some that can 

2 be in either of those orientations. And then 

3 there are lamps that are exclusively designed 

4 for horizontal operation, plus or minus 15 

5 degrees of the horizontal. 

6 MR. MYER: And each of those is 

7 deserving of different reference ballast 

8 operating characteristics? 

9 MS. ANDERSON: No. 

10 MR. COOK: No. 

11 MS. ANDERSON: Susan Callahan, can 

12 you comment on that? 

13 MS. CALLAHAN: I'm looking at the 

14 ANSI standard for metal halide lamps and I'm 

15 not seeing different reference ballast 

16 characteristics depending on orientation in 

17 this document. 

18 MR. BROOKMAN: I see Heidi shaking 

19 her head. Do you want to comment for the 

20 record, Heidi? No. Okay. Susan, go ahead. 

21 MS. ANDERSON: No, I mean when 

22 you're actually doing the testing of the lamp 

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1 it would be tested in its designed position. 

2 MR. COOK: The lamp is designed 

3 for a wattage, it doesn't know what the 

4 orientation is. 

5 MS. ANDERSON: -- to the lamp not 

6 the ballast. 

7 MS. CALLAHAN: Okay, there are 

8 different ranges for lamp voltage and current 

9 depending on the orientation of the lamp. But 

10 they would be tested using the same reference 

11 ballast characteristics. So once installed 

12 characteristics don't change. 

13 MR. MCGARAGHAN: Great, I'll 

14 follow up perhaps with you, Susan, offline and 

15 if I can just send you this table and you can 

16 help me understand. 

17 MS. CALLAHAN: Okay, thank you. 

18 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay, final 

19 comments on this? 

20 MR. HITCHCOCK: This is Bill 

21 Hitchcock from Philips with a question. 

22 MR. BROOKMAN: We hear you, keep 

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1 going. Yes. 

2 MR. HITCHCOCK: I think there may 

3 be some confusion here. I do not believe that 

4 C78.389 carries the characteristic for the 

5 reference ballast. It's C78.43, the lamp 

6 standard, that defines the characteristics. 

7 And therefore, you've only got characteristics 

8 for reference ballast on lamps that are 

9 standardized. 

10 MR. MCGARAGHAN: Can you say the 

11 number there again, C78.43? 

12 MR. HITCHCOCK: C78.43. 

13 MR. MCGARAGHAN: I was actually 

14 referencing C82.5, so maybe I was in the wrong 

15 place to start with. 

16 MR. HITCHCOCK: I believe C82.5 

17 has the characteristic, the rules for how to 

18 determine a reference ballast. But I do not 

19 believe it lists the actual values for the 

20 specific lamps. 

21 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay, thank you. 

22 Any other questions or comments related to 

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1 reference balance ballast issues? 

2 MR. STEELE: Continuing on with 

3 our quest to minimize test measurement result 

4 error, one potential source of error is not 

5 using correct measurement equipment. So here 

6 we're showing some of the instrumentation 

7 requirements pulled from ANSI C78.389 for the 

8 electrical measurements. And LM-51 for the 

9 photometry. 

10 We're dealing with AC here, hence 

11 there's a possible frequency range and 

12 harmonics therein, so therefore there is a 

13 frequency range accuracy requirement in any of 

14 the measurement equipment there. 

15 Any measurement equipment that is 

16 put in circuit during the test measurement 

17 should not affect the lamp operation. That 

18 being it should not disturb the lamp's 

19 characteristic voltage and current. 

20 Moving on to light output and 

21 color measurement, we're requiring a V-lambda 

22 spectral response and photometer that is with 

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1 any photometric measurement we scale to a 

2 human visual response. 

3 And for a chromaticity, CCT and 

4 CRI we also mention spectral radiometry, which 

5 is considered by industry a more precise 

6 method for determining those values. 

7 So that brings us to Issue Number 

8 6 on the proposed instrumentation 

9 specifications. 

10 MR. BROOKMAN: Joe. 

11 MR. HOWLEY: NEMA discussed this 

12 and had one comment. And that was that we 

13 believe more specificity can be provided on 

14 the integrating sphere diameter in terms of 

15 that last requirement, or comment. There are 

16 some recommendations in CIE and we'll provide 

17 more of that in our written comments. 

18 MR. STEELE: Thank you for that. 

19 MR. BROOKMAN: Other comments 

20 related to Issue Box 6, on proposed 

21 instrumentation specifications and 

22 appropriateness of ANSI C78.389 and LM-51? 

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1 Okay. 

2 MR. STEELE: Now we're going to 

3 discuss the sampling method for these HID lamp 

4 test procedures. For each HID lamp basic 

5 model we're requiring that the lamp 

6 characteristics be representative of a 

7 manufacturer's production output. 

8 So therefore we need a sampling 

9 plan to determine product process variability 

10 and DOE is proposing to adopt the sampling 

11 plan from another lighting equipment rule 

12 that's already in the Code of Federal 

13 Regulations in Section 429.27. 

14 This is actually from the GSFL 

15 Rule and it is, sample test units are obtained 

16 via a random selection. Sample plan is over a 

17 12-month period and we're requiring a minimum 

18 of 21 samples hopefully spread evenly over the 

19 12-month period. I believe there is a minimum 

20 seven-month period available also if 

21 production does not run the full 12 months. 

22 Then, with those sample test 

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1 group, you then go ahead and do the test 

2 procedures and determine the lamp 

3 characteristic measurements and take the mean 

4 of those measurements. This brings us to 

5 Issue Box Number 7, regarding the proposed 

6 sampling method. 

7 MR. BROOKMAN: Alex. 

8 MR. BOESENBERG: Alex Boesenberg 

9 of NEMA. You mentioned the GSFL Standard. We 

10 disagreed with the statistical measurement and 

11 the approach at that time, we will disagree 

12 with it again. And I will attempt to bring 

13 more information to bear at this time. 

14 We disagree, we talk about 

15 inherent uncertainty but then misapply the 

16 statistical T test. So we will submit some 

17 more information to that, but the uncertainty 

18 brings with it a certain requirement that you 

19 allow a great degree of tolerance, or range of 

20 tolerance. And we'll comment to that. 

21 But there's one other portion, 

22 besides just the statistical discussion 

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1 itself, is that in Europe they have a ten 

2 percent plus or minus in their reporting and 

3 testing requirement. And as such any 

4 manufacturer that sells to both markets would 

5 be disadvantaged if they were testing to a 

6 much tighter tolerance here in the U.S., 

7 because they'd have to potentially run two 

8 tests. 

9 We'll provide greater explanation 

10 on that. It's very difficult for me to speak 

11 about statistics. But, again, we disagree 

12 with some of that approach. 

13 MR. BROOKMAN: Alex, in addition 

14 to commenting on what is proposed, will NEMA 

15 propose an alternative? 

16 MR. BOESENBERG: Yes, we will. 

17 MR. BROOKMAN: Thank you. Tina. 

18 DR. KAARSBERG: Alex, my 

19 understanding is that NEMA disagreed with the 

20 initial GSFL proposal, which had, I think, 20 

21 samples. In the final version our intent 

22 anyway was to agree with NEMA on that. 

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1 So I'm just stating that if we 

2 don't agree with you in the final version it 

3 would be helpful if you could explain why as 

4 well I think that was October 4th when we had 

5 that meeting when you talked about it. 

6 MR. BOESENBERG: Yes, I remember 

7 from that we talked about how 20 didn't make 

8 any difference statistically from 21 due to 

9 the requirement to get to 50 percent failure. 

10 But we'll bear that in mind and I'll get a 

11 greater explanation on that. 

12 Also we will comment later on the 

13 21 sample size and the 12-month sampling, 

14 because these are very long-lived lamps once 

15 you get to December and pull a lamp and begin 

16 testing it it's a long time before you have 

17 the results. 

18 MR. BROOKMAN: Joe. 

19 MR. HOWLEY: Yes, I'd just like to 

20 add, our statistical expert is not here. But 

21 the source of the concern really came out of 

22 the CCE rule versus the GSFL rule. And it had 

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1 to do with how the statistical test was being 

2 applied to lamp samples. Our statistical 

3 person believes that the T test is being very 

4 inappropriately applied. And he's going to 

5 provide some written comments on exactly how 

6 he feels that this is being misapplied. 

7 But it has an effect when you have 

8 products that have fairly tight tolerances, 

9 like incandescent and fluorescent, but it has 

10 a much more severe effect of misinterpreting 

11 this if you're applying it to HID lamps, which 

12 need and have a much wider tolerance on things 

13 like lumens and lumen maintenance and issues 

14 like that. 

15 So although we had a concern and 

16 it wasn't addressed with the CCE we don't feel 

17 in this particular case that we could afford 

18 to ignore it. We simply cannot have the 

19 statistical test and supply for these 

20 particular lamps because of the tolerances 

21 needed. 

22 So we'll provide more written 

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1 comments. We'll have him provide them because 

2 he understands the statistical issues much 

3 better than we do. 

4 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Whoever is 

5 coughing, if they could mute their phone that 

6 would greatly be appreciated for those of us 

7 in the room. Those of you that are joining us 

8 online please mute your phones. We're going 

9 to return to the slides and keep going. 

10 MR. STEELE: Thank you for all the 

11 comments and pending input, we look forward to 

12 reviewing it. Now I would like to hand the 

13 podium over to Heidi Steward who's going to 

14 discuss the next issue. 

15 MS. STEWARD: This is the musical 

16 portion. All right, aging is just turning a 

17 lamp on and letting it run for a specific 

18 period of time to prepare it for testing and 

19 use. Each lamp is aged only once. DOE 

20 proposes all HID lamps be aged 100 hours in 

21 the position it will be tested, base-up, base22 down or horizontal. 

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1 After aging a lamp must be warmed 

2 up and measured to verify stabilization. Each 

3 of the three types of lamps is physically 

4 different and thus has different warm-up and 

5 stabilization criteria. 

6 As you can see they range in warm7 up time from 15 to 20 minutes for mercury 

8 vapor all the way to six hours for metal 

9 halide lamps. And stabilization criteria are 

10 generally three successive measurements of 

11 voltage and current across variable 

12 measurement intervals and changes of values 

13 depending on lamp type. 

14 This is Issue 8. We invite 

15 comments and data on the applicability of the 

16 proposed 100 hour aging requirements and 

17 stabilization methods. 

18 MR. BROOKMAN: No comments? Joe, 

19 what? 

20 MR. HOWLEY: The only comment here 

21 was that NEMA agrees with using the ANSI 

22 C78.389. 

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1 MR. BROOKMAN: Thank you, that's 

2 useful. Okay, Heidi. 

3 MS. STEWARD: Depending on where a 

4 lamp is aged or warmed up often it needs to be 

5 moved. So transfer and re-stabilization 

6 requirements are necessary. Again, lamps 

7 differ physically so they have different 

8 requirements. 

9 The detailed lamp stabilization, 

10 re-stabilization and lamp transfer 

11 requirements for the various HID lamp types, 

12 metal halide, high pressure sodium and mercury 

13 vapor, are provided in C78.389. So our issue, 

14 DOE has proposed lamp cool down and re15 stabilization methods for HID lamps and 

16 invites comments. 

17 MR. BROOKMAN: Susan. 

18 MS. ANDERSON: In practice, I mean 

19 once again, the NEMA companies have discussed 

20 this and we all do the same thing. We 

21 stabilize the lamps and then, without changing 

22 their orientation or removing power from them, 

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1 move them into the sphere and then make sure 

2 they're stabilized within the sphere. And it 

3 usually takes about 15 minutes within the 

4 sphere. 

5 We check the measurements, if not 

6 stable we give them additional time. But we 

7 have a very specific procedure that we all 

8 agree that we use and we will give that to you 

9 in detail in our written comments. 

10 There is no cool down time because 

11 we don't turn the lamps off before we put them 

12 in the sphere. We keep power, keep the lamps 

13 energized and move them into the sphere. 

14 MS. STEWARD: Lamp orientation is 

15 the recommended burn position. Susan spoke 

16 briefly about it earlier. Generally you have 

17 base-up, base-down or horizontal. The 

18 orientation for aging and stabilization must 

19 be the same as that as for testing. 

20 The physical changes can occur 

21 during aging and stabilization. If the lamp 

22 is turned before testing it can give you 

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1 completely different testing results than if 

2 the orientation were maintained. 

3 So for consistency of measurement 

4 DOE has proposed the requirements of ANSI 

5 C78.389. Issue 10, we invite comments on this 

6 lamp orientation requirements. 

7 MR. BROOKMAN: I see a few heads 

8 nodding from manufacturer representatives, so 

9 would you state that, Susan, for the record, 

10 please? 

11 MS. ANDERSON: Yes, we agree. 

12 MR. BROOKMAN: You agree with 

13 that, okay. Thank you. 

14 MS. STEWARD: As we discussed 

15 briefly before, directional lamps require 

16 different measurements to calculate beam 

17 angle. Setup and measurement of directional 

18 lamps are proposed to be done following ANSI 

19 C78.379, which provides classification of beam 

20 patterns and technical guidance pertaining to 

21 directional lamp measurement and evaluation. 

22 Issue 11, we invite comments on 

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1 proposed setup and measurements standard 

2 selection for directional lamps. 

3 MR. BROOKMAN: Joe. 

4 MR. HOWLEY: Again, in our 

5 industry discussions we were concerned how 

6 this may be applied and just note that 

7 measuring the beam performance of directional 

8 lamps increases the measurement variation if 

9 you're using zonal lumens to set efficiency 

10 limits. 

11 So again, this would require a 

12 higher statistical variation tolerance on 

13 measurements if we head down that path. So 

14 far we haven't had any standard yet that deals 

15 with directional lamps in terms of taking into 

16 account the zonal lumens. 

17 So we're approaching a new area 

18 here. I think it all has to be carefully 

19 thought out as we look at standards. Thank 

20 you. 

21 MR. BROOKMAN: So is NEMA going to 

22 do some additional work on this, Alex? 

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1 MR. HOWLEY: I'll ask the members 

2 to discuss it. We're not sure yet how much we 

3 can provide other than just to say make it 

4 wide. 

5 MR. BROOKMAN: Michael Myer. 

6 MR. HOWLEY: Plus or minus 100 

7 percent. 

8 MR. MYER: Just to clarify. The 

9 comment is not in disagreement of the setup, 

10 it is only in the possible calculation or 

11 metrics derived from the setup, or from the -- 

12 MR. HOWLEY: That's right, we do 

13 agree with ANSI C78.379 being applied here, 

14 just how you apply it. 

15 MR. MYER: Right, how it's applied 

16 and how tight the tolerance is held when 

17 you're talking about zonal lumens, which 

18 provides a lot of tolerance issues. 

19 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay, so that was 

20 Alex followed by Joe. Thank you. 

21 MR. MCGARAGHAN: Mike McGaraghan, 

22 California IOUs. I think I missed a chance to 

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1 comment two slides back on orientation. I 

2 just wanted to ask about lamps marked as 

3 universal. It looks like the proposal is to 

4 test base-up, which is I understand how it's 

5 always been done. 

6 The question, I guess, for the 

7 group is if there's ever been discussion about 

8 the performance of universal lamps in other 

9 positions besides base-up and whether it 

10 should be measured or reported to the consumer 

11 if there's a big variation. 

12 I understand that often base-up is 

13 the best performing position. So if some 

14 lamps that maybe their performance drops off a 

15 lot when you move to horizontal versus another 

16 lamp where the performance doesn't drop off 

17 much, is that an important thing to measure? 

18 Is there some strategy to capture that either 

19 in the test procedure or in the literature for 

20 these products? 

21 MR. BROOKMAN: Susan. 

22 MS. ANDERSON: If you go to our 

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1 literature, if it's a universal burning lamp, 

2 or operating lamp. Shouldn't say burning. We 

3 provide both the vertical and the horizontal 

4 lumens. But, I mean, the main application for 

5 these lamps are where they're used in things 

6 like floodlights where they're always tilted 

7 at an angle. So we do have to have some sort 

8 of a lamp that's tolerant of the multitude of 

9 many positions the lamps could be operated in. 

10 You know, it's not like it's 

11 going, you know, the most common application 

12 is say a high bay fixture and it's base-up and 

13 traditionally people do try to design the 

14 luminaires based on base-up or base-down 

15 because for those lamps they're most efficient 

16 in vertical positions. 

17 But, once again, there are some 

18 fixtures, like flood lights, where you have to 

19 aim them. So we have to have a lamp designed 

20 that's tolerant of that. But the most common 

21 application would be in the vertical position. 

22 And as far as we, as a manufacturer, go we do 

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1 publish both the vertical lumens and the 

2 horizontal lumens. 

3 MR. MCGARAGHAN: And apart from 

4 publishing that in your literature would it be 

5 appropriate to actually measure both in the 

6 test procedure and consider standards in both 

7 positions? 

8 MS. ANDERSON: That would add 

9 significant testing burden to us. 

10 MR. MCGARAGHAN: But I thought you 

11 already reported that? 

12 MS. ANDERSON: We do measure it. 

13 MR. HOWLEY: In terms of 

14 standards, this is Joe again, we all think 

15 that would be appropriate as the most common 

16 position is the vertical position. 

17 And in terms of testing and 

18 meeting these standards, which already can be 

19 quite onerous, it would add a very high level 

20 of testing concerns to try to measure out all 

21 these different angles that a few fixtures 

22 might operate in. So no we wouldn't agree to 

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1 having standards at all of these different 

2 operating positions. The primary operating 

3 position. 

4 MR. BROOKMAN: Keith. 

5 MR. COOK: Keith Cook with 

6 Philips. Even though we may do the testing 

7 today we don't do it necessarily through a 

8 NVLAP approved facility. And the implication 

9 here is that we are going to go to a NVLAP10 approved facility which significantly will add 

11 cost. 

12 And by having to do this on a 

13 third party, with a lot of the smaller 

14 manufacturers, you're significantly doubling 

15 the costs by asking them to do it in multiple 

16 orientations now. And there's a huge burden 

17 associated with that which we're concerned 

18 with. 

19 MS. ANDERSON: And once again, the 

20 primary application is the vertical 

21 application. It's just these few applications 

22 where you see flood lights, where the angle 

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1 could be anything and you there's no way in 

2 the world you could begin to test for all 

3 those potential aiming angles. 

4 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay, thank you, 

5 Susan. Heidi. 

6 MS. STEWARD: Thank you. On to 

7 the aforementioned NVLAP. NVLAP is a National 

8 Voluntary Laboratory Accreditation Program. 

9 They accredit laboratories for many types of 

10 testing, not just luminaire testing or lamp 

11 testing. 

12 The DOE proposes testing for HID 

13 lamps test procedure be done at independent 

14 test labs or manufacturer/importer testing 

15 labs that have been accredited by NVLAP or 

16 another organization recognized by NVLAP. 

17 So on Issue 12 we request comment 

18 on the proposal to require NVLAP accredited or 

19 equivalent labs for testing, similar as DOE 

20 required in the GSFL test procedure. 

21 MR. BROOKMAN: Keith. 

22 MR. COOK: Keith Cook with 

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1 Philips. I've already alluded to this a 

2 little bit, but we're a little confused, first 

3 off, by the wording of this thing. First off, 

4 "by an accrediting organization recognized by 

5 NVLAP." NVLAP does not recognize any other 

6 accrediting bodies, they just don't do that. 

7 MS. STEWARD: They do for other 

8 types of lighting. They do for solid-state 

9 lighting. 

10 MS. ANDERSON: Don't. 

11 MR. COOK: No, they don't. It's 

12 through NIST that you get the accreditation. 

13 MS. STEWARD: Okay. 

14 MR. MYER: We'll research that 

15 aspect, thank you for pointing that out. 

16 MR. COOK: But even then, the 

17 other potential implication of this wording is 

18 going to certification bodies. And we had 

19 really cautioned DOE that that may be a 

20 mistake. 

21 EPA has done that through the 

22 EnergyStar and that has not worked out 

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1 extremely well. It's led to a lot of chaos 

2 because of different interpretations of 

3 testing standards and testing setups and 

4 specifications. 

5 And as a result it's caused a lot 

6 of delay of new product introductions and 

7 listings of new products on their websites. 

8 It has become a major fiasco. We'll include a 

9 lot of comments on this, but we do caution the 

10 DOE about going down this path. 

11 MR. BROOKMAN: The principal 

12 comment relates to different or multiple 

13 certification bodies, correct? 

14 MR. COOK: Correct. 

15 MR. BROOKMAN: And so say what 

16 you'd like to see have happen with NVLAP in 

17 your comments, right? 

18 MR. COOK: Will do. 

19 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Other 

20 comments on Issue Box 12? 

21 DR. DAUBACH: This is Ron Daubach 

22 Osram Sylvania. I believe that the DOE also 

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1 proposes that manufacturers’ accredited 

2 laboratories can also supply the test results. 

3 That is still DOE's position? 

4 MR. BROOKMAN: Michael Myer. 

5 MR. MYER: At this time that is 

6 what is proposed, it would be an accredited 

7 laboratory. 

8 DR. DAUBACH: Okay. 

9 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay, Ron, thank 

10 you. All of you that are joining us online 

11 you're doing a great job of keeping those 

12 phones muted, thanks for doing that. Alex. 

13 MR. BOESENBERG: This is Alex 

14 Boesenberg from NEMA. Specific to your 

15 question of whether or not additional or 

16 alternative requirements for testing labs 

17 should be considered, we suggest that we 

18 refrain from adding any additional 

19 requirements due to the cost. 

20 MR. BROOKMAN: Other comments on 

21 Issue 12 before we move on? Okay. 

22 MS. STEWARD: So we can move on to 

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1 test measurements and calculations with 

2 Lindsay Steele. 

3 MR. STEELE: Almost there. This 

4 slide shows the logical progression of the 

5 proposed HID lamp test procedures. I have a 

6 nice start/finish arrow to kind of show you 

7 the direction that we're heading in here. 

8 First off we start with an initial 

9 operation of 100 hours on the lamps burn, call 

10 that the lamp aging or sometimes referred to 

11 as seasoning. There is no exception to this 

12 rule, per the standard. 

13 Then the next thing that would 

14 happen is the lamps would be stabilized before 

15 any kinds of measurements are done. And then 

16 when we move into the measurement phase of the 

17 procedures, taking the electrical and 

18 photometric characteristics. 

19 Once you have established those 

20 measurements you would then repeat for each 

21 lamp in the sample test group, and then one 

22 would go ahead and calculate the lamp efficacy 

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1 and lumens per watts and take the mean values 

2 and generate a report with the group test 

3 results and statistics. 

4 The characteristics that we would 

5 like to see in the report would be efficacy, 

6 CRI, CCT, lumen maintenance, obviously, and 

7 beam angle. Again we'll remind you that DOE 

8 is considering using the color values to 

9 delineate the equipment classes of the HID 

10 lamp in the energy conservation standards that 

11 are coming up. 

12 Apologies for having to kind of 

13 switch slides here. But that brings us to 

14 Issue Box Number 13 where we're inviting 

15 comment on the suitability of the measurement 

16 and calculation procedures of HID lamps. 

17 MR. BROOKMAN: Let's flip back to 

18 the previous slide. 

19 MR. STEELE: I will do. 

20 MR. BROOKMAN: Comments we know 

21 are on this slide, Slide 38. Joe. 

22 MR. HOWLEY: This comment is 

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1 basically kind of summing up what we've been 

2 talking about today and this slide takes us 

3 through all the different testing and 

4 different outputs that we'd be looking at. 

5 And, as we've mentioned this 

6 morning, concerns about tolerances, kind of, 

7 all the way through this process. Needing the 

8 proper tolerances on the lumen output. If 

9 we're adding a zonal lumen distribution, 

10 calculation tolerances within that area. 

11 If we're measuring CCT or CRI, 

12 again we talked about tolerances there and 

13 appreciate that DOE is looking for what we 

14 might suggest in these areas in terms of 

15 tolerances. 

16 And then finally, the labs 

17 themselves we've noticed even in doing round 

18 robin testing in labs there could be a 

19 tolerance of four percent or more just across 

20 the individual labs that may be trying to do 

21 compliance or certification testing. This 

22 would have to be taken into account as well. 

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1 Yes, NVLAB labs. 

2 MR. BOESENBERG: That's not our 

3 number, NVLAP has tested effectiveness or 

4 repeatability among different labs and they 

5 give a four percent margin from one lab to the 

6 next. 

7 MR. BROOKMAN: For the NVLAP8 certified labs, within that identified group, 

9 four percent? 

10 MR. BOESENBERG: Right, test the 

11 same gear from one lab to the next. And they 

12 -- 

13 (Off microphone comments.) 

14 MS. ANDERSON: It's four percent 

15 or more. Four percent or more depending on 

16 the lamp technology. And HID lamps being the 

17 most variable. 

18 MR. BROOKMAN: Interesting. 

19 MR. BOESENBERG: It's my 

20 understanding that's for lamps, yes. And, if 

21 I may, this is Alex Boesenberg again. It's 

22 not specific to the test procedure standard, 

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1 but for the record we would like to raise the 

2 concern that in terms of certification, 

3 compliance and enforcement, since one day this 

4 will all end up in that arena, because of the 

5 lifetime of HID lamps, and I alluded to this 

6 earlier, testing to the 40 or 50 percent rated 

7 life-point, annual testing is not feasible, 

8 due to the, first, the annual sampling itself. 

9 And then the fact that these last so stinking 

10 long. You can't do it every year. 

11 MR. MYER: Michael Myer. I just 

12 want to follow-up on the tolerance comment Joe 

13 had. I had two values there that I didn't 

14 hear and I just wanted to ask about those 

15 tolerances. Power, I assume, is there a lot 

16 of tolerance there? And you don't have to 

17 answer now, it can be in the comment. I just 

18 wanted to put that one out there. 

19 And you've also used the term 

20 zonal lumens a couple of times and I just 

21 wanted to also interject it with intensity, 

22 candelas, again, is there a lot of assumed 

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1 tolerance in intensity at a given angle? 

2 MR. HOWLEY: Yes, there can be 

3 because of the, just shape of the reflector or 

4 tolerances within the reflector. How well 

5 that's aimed within an HID arc source. 

6 There's tolerances within the center beam 

7 candlepower as well. 

8 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay, Michael, yes. 

9 MR. MYER: That addressed the 

10 question I was asking, thank you. 

11 MR. BROOKMAN: Thank you. Okay. So, 

12 Joanna Mauer. 

13 MS. MAUER: Just a quick question. 

14 Would lumens per watt be the metric for 

15 directional lamps as well as omnidirectional 

16 lamps? 

17 MR. BROOKMAN: Joe Howley. 

18 MR. HOWLEY: I'm just answering in 

19 that it has been so far, in the incandescent 

20 reflector lamps, we've had simply a lumen per 

21 watt metric on those. We have discussed 

22 whether or not it makes sense to look at the 

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1 directional nature of the center beam 

2 candlepower in these other rulemakings, but to 

3 date we haven't gone down that path. This is 

4 the first rule where we've actually proposed 

5 looking at this path. 

6 So it's something that on one hand 

7 makes sense. On the other hand introduces a 

8 lot of tolerance concerns. 

9 MR. MYER: Following up on Joe. 

10 This is Michael Myer. Again, no metrics have 

11 been proposed, just at some point after lumens 

12 you would need some aspect of intensity and 

13 that's all we're proposing to measure. 

14 And these are actually following 

15 comments from NEMA from the high intensity 

16 discharge determination where they said look 

17 at something else. But it was not stated, as 

18 Joe has identified, there's some issues that 

19 have to be addressed before you could set a 

20 metric. But we are not proposing any metrics, 

21 just test the next logical thing. 

22 MR. BROOKMAN: Tina Kaarsberg. 

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1 DR. KAARSBERG: I don't know if we 

2 have this data, but it would be interesting to 

3 just see the data on how many of the lamps are 

4 directional versus the fixtures. My 

5 understanding is that there are not that many 

6 directional lamps, so for a lamp standard it 

7 may not be an issue. But that most HID 

8 fixtures are directional fixtures. So any 

9 data you all could provide, or insights on how 

10 they're used would be very helpful to us. 

11 MR. HOWLEY: That is a good 

12 comment. When you look at the whole world of 

13 HID lamps the fast majority of them are 

14 omnidirectional. There is just a very small 

15 subset of HID lamps that are actually in a 

16 reflector shape. So it also would be worth 

17 considering how much energy and time might be 

18 directed at directional HID lamps. 

19 We know there's another rulemaking 

20 being proposed for reflector lamps, which is 

21 all directional, so that might make more sense 

22 to venture down this path versus an HID 

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1 rulemaking where such a small percentage of 

2 the lamps are indeed directional lamps. Thank 

3 you. 

4 MR. BROOKMAN: Mike McGaraghan. 

5 MR. MCGARAGHAN: Mike McGaraghan, 

6 California IOUs. We would definitely support 

7 any effort that goes into looking for a 

8 directional metric and agree with what Joe 

9 just said that the incandescent reflector lamp 

10 rulemaking might be the more appropriate 

11 place. But I also think that they probably 

12 could be the same metric used for both HID and 

13 incandescent reflector lamps. So maybe it's a 

14 kill two birds with one stone situation. 

15 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. So any 

16 additional comments on this sequence of test 

17 measurement and calculations that's shown on 

18 Slide 38? Mike. 

19 MR. MCGARAGHAN: Mike again. I 

20 wanted to follow up on Alex's comment about 

21 color. Alex commented that NEMA doesn't 

22 support using color to establish product 

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1 classes. 

2 I want to clarify, I guess, that 

3 the test procedure rulemaking isn't going to 

4 answer that question. That that decision 

5 would be made later in the rulemaking itself. 

6 And that, in the meantime, NEMA is okay with 

7 the proposed test methods for measuring color. 

8 Are both of those, I guess first a question 

9 to DOE and then a follow-up to NEMA. 

10 MR. BROOKMAN: Michael Myer. 

11 MR. MYER: Yes, all the test 

12 procedure does is just says test color quality 

13 and it doesn't set any requirements, doesn't 

14 delineate, it just says test and then you do 

15 something with it. 

16 MR. BROOKMAN: Yes, Alex. 

17 MR. BOESENBERG: And this is Alex 

18 Boesenberg. We have no argument with those 

19 ANSI standards, no. 

20 MR. MCGARAGHAN: Thank you. 

21 MR. BROOKMAN: So as I think 

22 that's the last issue box and this is the 

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1 final slide, substantive slide. So I'm 

2 turning it back then to Tina. Yes? 

3 DR. KAARSBERG: Well, I have a 

4 request and if you want to comment as well 

5 that would be great. 

6 MR. BROOKMAN: You should offer an 

7 opportunity for closing remarks. 

8 DR. KAARSBERG: Right, right. But 

9 specifically on Mike McGaraghan's comment that 

10 it would be good if there were some kind of 

11 directional metric that it would be the same 

12 for incandescent reflector lamps and HID 

13 reflector lamps. 

14 I'd just be curious if you all do 

15 have any comments on that, on his comment, I'd 

16 be interested in hearing your comments as 

17 well. 

18 And in general, closing remarks. 

19 This is, I guess, where we ask everyone to 

20 kind of sum up, surmise what they're doing. I 

21 think on DOE's part we have some homework to 

22 do. A lot of your excellent questions we 

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1 couldn't answer because we haven't really 

2 gotten there yet in terms of other work we're 

3 doing on the standard and such. 

4 But I really appreciate everyone's 

5 comments. And they will all be reflected in 

6 the next round of the test procedure. And I 

7 really strongly encourage you to submit 

8 comments by the 28th. And, at this point, I 

9 guess we're going to go around the room and 

10 see what people want to say to the proposed 

11 test procedures. 

12 MR. BROOKMAN: Any final comments 

13 or additional comments here at the end? 

14 Keith. 

15 MR. COOK: Keith Cook with 

16 Philips. One additional comment is we'd like 

17 maybe a closer look at the cost estimates that 

18 were put into this. The -- 

19 MR. BROOKMAN: Keith, you need to 

20 get closer to that microphone, thank you. 

21 MR. COOK: The energy consumption 

22 for the life testing to determine 40 percent 

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1 and even the 70 percent maintenance, [we 

2 estimate] that actually will exceed $200 per 

3 individual lamp. And if you have 21 samples 

4 per year then that's going to be over $4,200 

5 right there. We actually sent it out to find 

6 out what a third party would cost and they 

7 came back considerably higher than even that. 

8 Also the references made regarding 

9 similarity between incandescent life testing 

10 and HID lamp life are way overstated. 

11 And last, but not least, assuming 

12 the entire catalogue is incorporated as 

13 different basic models, we're seeing as many 

14 as 200 basic models then, per manufacturer. 

15 And that would require 23 million kilowatt 

16 hours of electricity annually to do the 

17 testing, which ends up being over $2.3 

18 million. So we believe that these cost 

19 estimates need to be reviewed more closely. 

20 MR. BROOKMAN: Thank you. Alex. 

21 MR. BOESENBERG: Alex Boesenberg, 

22 NEMA. To amplify that, so that is very 

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1 pertinent both to the discussions of sample 

2 size and especially to the definition of a 

3 basic model, obviously. 

4 And then one other comment I 

5 wanted to make to sort of sum up on the 

6 discussions we've had through the course of 

7 today's meeting about where a specific 

8 standard may not yet exist in terms of a 

9 procedure. And we've said more than once the 

10 general accepted industry practice is X, Y, Z. 

11 I would like to point out, it's 

12 sort of moot, or it's common sense, but the 

13 more that we stick to the established 

14 procedures and tests, whether by a specific 

15 reference or by what we in the industry agree 

16 is the general accepted industry practice, the 

17 more we stick to that then easier it is to 

18 implement the future standard because we don't 

19 have to change what we've been doing. 

20 In particular, as to my previous 

21 comment about testing to 40 and 50 percent of 

22 rated life, if one of the variables is 

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1 something that involves statistical sampling 

2 if we measure to points that we have already 

3 done in the past therefore we have that data 

4 already resident, the sooner and easier we can 

5 supply the answer to whatever that piece might 

6 be. 

7 So sticking to the way we've done 

8 it and the procedures we already have and 

9 already, in a sense, paid for and set up the 

10 facilities for at the different companies or 

11 third party test labs means that we minimize 

12 the burden to the industry and you maximize 

13 the continued availability of product and you 

14 minimize time to market for new products. 

15 MR. BROOKMAN: Thank you. Joe. 

16 MR. HOWLEY: Just as chairman of 

17 the NEMA lamp section we appreciate the 

18 opportunity to provide our comments today and 

19 we'll follow up with written comments as well. 

20 Thank you. 

21 MR. BROOKMAN: Thank you. 

22 Additional comments? Mike. Oh, I'm sorry, 

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1 Susan, please. 

2 MS. ANDERSON: I actually have a 

3 question. Since there are so many open 

4 issues, when you look at the schedule there's 

5 not going to be an opportunity for another 

6 comment period beyond the one that is due 

7 February 28th. 

8 Is it possible that there should 

9 be another publication of proposals based on 

10 the feedback that you get and the research 

11 that you do, and then have another opportunity 

12 for the interested parties to comment? 

13 MR. BROOKMAN: Betsy. 

14 MS. KOHL: We can take a look at 

15 that. 

16 DR. KAARSBERG: And a lot of your 

17 comments overlap with the standard and there 

18 will startto be opportunities for comment on 

19 the standard as well. 

20 MR. BROOKMAN: Mike. 

21 MR. MCGARAGHAN: Mike McGaraghan, 

22 California IOUs. A few questions. First, 

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1 dimming lamps didn't come up at all today and 

2 that may be because it's more a factor of the 

3 ballast and not the lamp itself, maybe 

4 industry can confirm. 

5 But the question here is are there 

6 any characteristics of lamps that are designed 

7 to operate on dimming systems that would 

8 impact the way they're tested or the way they 

9 perform? 

10 MS. ANDERSON: We don't have lamps 

11 dedicated for dimming. 

12 MR. MCGARAGHAN: Okay. 

13 MR. BROOKMAN: That was Susan. 

14 Thank you. 

15 MR. MCGARAGHAN: So you can put 

16 any lamp as long as it's designed to operate 

17 with a dimming ballast? 

18 MS. ANDERSON: So long as the lamp 

19 and ballast are compatible. 

20 MR. MCGARAGHAN: Okay. The other 

21 question I wanted to ask is, there had been a 

22 lot of discussion about measurement at 40 

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1 percent or 50 percent of rated life. If the 

2 implication now that DOE is considering a 

3 standard level at 40 percent or 50 percent of 

4 life? 

5 MR. MYER: At this time there is 

6 no standard. Just what we, what the 

7 Department, would consider testing. There's 

8 already precedent for CFLs and testing lumen 

9 maintenance and I think most manufacturers and 

10 everyone agree that while a certain HID lamp 

11 might start off at economical value of 100 

12 lumens per watt, over the course of the long 

13 life that Alex is referring of 24,000 hours it 

14 has not remained at that value. And we all 

15 know this and it's a fact of the technology 

16 and so that the efficacy is changed at some 

17 point and it would be helpful to get a sense 

18 of what that is. Maybe to set a standard, but 

19 at this point it's just testing. 

20 MR. BROOKMAN: That was Michael 

21 Myer. Mike McGaraghan. 

22 MR. MCGARAGHAN: Okay. I guess I 

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1 didn't follow, what else might you do with 

2 that information? If it doesn't end up as 

3 part of the standard. 

4 MR. MYER: Continue to do 

5 research. 

6 MR. MCGARAGHAN: Last question for 

7 me is if DOE can provide any insight as to 

8 this upcoming schedule for this rulemaking and 

9 specifically rulemaking stages is the plan is 

10 to start with a framework as is the usual 

11 practice, or because of all the research that 

12 went into the determination stage, any 

13 elements of the HID rulemaking might get 

14 skipped. And at what timeframe that will 

15 happen. 

16 DR. KAARSBERG: We can't really 

17 comment on that. We are working, we're not 

18 not working on it. But we can't really 

19 comment on that right now. 

20 MR. BROOKMAN: Thank you, Tina. 

21 Mike, okay? Okay. Additional comments here 

22 as we move towards closing? Michael Myer. 

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1 MR. MYER: I just had a follow-up 

2 note on from what Keith said. When you said 

3 the catalog 200 basic models, was SKU, product 

4 number, just so we could start looking at the 

5 cost implications. 

6 MR. COOK: I was trying to look at 

7 logical groupings. 

8 MR. MYER: Okay, I was just trying 

9 to get a sense of how you -- Thank you. 

10 MS. ANDERSON: It was based on ten 

11 cents a kilowatt hour. 

12 MR. BROOKMAN: Thanks, Susan. So 

13 any additional comments here? I think we've 

14 covered it at this point then. I'm going to 

15 hand out, the Department makes a photocopy of 

16 the business cards of attendees, I'll hand 

17 that out to pass around. And also the 

18 evaluation form. 

19 And from my part I think we had a 

20 very constructive meeting. Thanks to all of 

21 you for being so knowledgeable and 

22 forthcoming. Back to Tina. 

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1 DR. KAARSBERG: And thank you for 

2 being you. Just one other thing, this is 

3 pretty much everything but don't forget to 

4 write. And up here on the screen is all the 

5 various numbers and websites and names. And 

6 don't forget Tuesday, February 28th, 2012, be 

7 there, aloha, or before. Before is nice as 

8 well. 

9 And just one final note, some of 

10 you cc me when you send in your comments and I 

11 really appreciate that and it's great, but 

12 there's no need to because I do eventually get 

13 it. I mean get it pretty quickly. But you're 

14 welcome to do that if you wish. 

15 MR. BROOKMAN: Simone reminds me 

16 that we wanted to provide the opportunity for 

17 those that are joining us on the web to make 

18 additional comments or summary comments, 

19 perhaps. 

20 DR. KAARSBERG: How could we 

21 forget the web people? 

22 MR. BROOKMAN: We didn't forget 

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1 them, they just weren't here in the room. 

2 DR. KAARSBERG: Okay so I would 

3 like to invite the web participants to make 

4 any closing remarks that they would like to 

5 make. And, thank you. 

6 (Off microphone comments.) 

7 MR. BROOKMAN: So then final 

8 comments from those that are joining us via 

9 the web. Okay, so I'll just echo Tina's 

10 comments to say thank you for joining us -- 

11 DR. DAUBACH: Hello, this is Ron 

12 Daubach. 

13 MR. BROOKMAN: Yes. Ron, go. 

14 DR. DAUBACH: Yes, just a quick 

15 question. Will DOE be providing specifics on 

16 what data and how it will be reported? 

17 MR. BROOKMAN: What data and how 

18 it will be reported? 

19 DR. DAUBACH: Yes, the last slide 

20 indicated that group data was to be 

21 calculated. Is only the group data to be 

22 reported, for example, and which specific 

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1 parameters will be reported? Or is that part 

2 of the rulemaking? 

3 DR. KAARSBERG: Oh, yes, the group 

4 data. It will be for entire test sample 

5 groups. 

6 MR. BROOKMAN: Tina. 

7 DR. KAARSBERG: Yes, this was an 

8 just an illustration of how this would work. 

9 This wasn't the exact requirement.It was to 

10 just give you an idea of the sequence. And 

11 this was just our best guess of how it might 

12 happen just to illustrate, you know, how the 

13 pieces all fit together. I mean, we can't 

14 tell you what exactly the group is and what 

15 you're testing and how you do the statistics 

16 until you have a standard. 

17 And then also we have to develop 

18 the appropriate compliance guidance for that. 

19 So I apologize for any confusion on that. 

20 But that was just supposed to be an 

21 illustration of how it might happen. I hope 

22 that helps. 

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1 DR. DAUBACH: Thank you. 

2 MR. BROOKMAN: Any additional 

3 comments? 

4 MR. ELLIS: This is Dave Ellis at 

5 Intertek. I was concerned about the versions 

6 of LM-51 and LM-47. They are both more than 

7 ten years old. IES policy is to discontinue 

8 them, take them off the market. A new version 

9 of LM-47 is out and a new version of LM-51 

10 will be out probably third quarter of this 

11 year. Will these be replaced in the final 

12 rule? 

13 MR. BROOKMAN: Michael. 

14 MR. MYER: We'll compare the two 

15 documents. And obviously if the IES rescinds 

16 a document because of its age we would like to 

17 be with the most current unless there's some 

18 major change that requires additional review. 

19 MR. BROOKMAN: Thanks for the 

20 comment. Okay so then I think we've now 

21 completed the meeting. Thanks to all of you, 

22 safe travels. And we'll see you next time. 

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 (Whereupon, the above-entitled 

matter was concluded at 11:04 a.m.) 

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Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc.'

202-234-4433'
 

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C E R T I F I C A T E
 

This is to certify that the foregoing transcript 


In the matter of: Test Procedures for High-Intensity

Discharge (HID)Lamps

Before: US DOE

Date: 01-19-12

Place: Washington, DC

was duly recorded and accurately transcribed under 


my direction; further, that said transcript is a 


true and accurate record of the proceedings. 


 

Court Reporter 

----------------------- 

NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com