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Commerical and Industrial Pumps Working Group Meeting 03-04-2014

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 1

DEPARTMENT OF ENERGY OFFICE OF ENERGY EFFICIENCY AND RENEWABLE ENERGY

APPLIANCE STANDARDS AND RULEMAKING FEDERAL ADVISORY COMMITTEE COMMERCIAL AND INDUSTRIAL PUMPS WORKING GROUP

U.S. Department of Energy Forrestal Building 1000 Independence Avenue, S.W. Washington, D.C. 20585

Tuesday, March 4, 2014 9:20 a.m.

Reported by: Chaz Bennett, Capital Reporting Company

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Commerical and Industrial Pumps Working Group Meeting 03-04-2014

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 2 1 A P P E A R A N C E S 2 FACILITATOR 3 DOUG BROOKMAN, Public Solutions 4 PARTICIPANTS 5 LUCAS ADIN, DOE 6 ROBERT BARBOUR, TACO 7 ROB BOTELER, Nidec 8 CHARLES CAPPELLINO, ITT Corporation 9 GREG CASE, Hydraulic Institute 10 TOM ECKMAN, Northwest Power and Conservation Council (via telephone) 11 GARY FERNSTROM, California IOUs 12 JEREMIAH FREEMAN, New West Technologies 13 MARK HANDZEL, Xylem 14 ALBERT HUBER, Patterson Pump 15 BETSY KOHL, DOE General Counsel 16 PAUL LIN, Regal Beloit 17 JOANNA MAUER, Appliance Standards Awareness 18 Project 19 DOUGLAS POTTS, American Water 20 CHARLES POWERS, Flowserve Corporation 21 CALLIE REIS, Navigant 22 STEVE ROSENSTOCK, Edison Electric Institute (EEI)

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Commerical and Industrial Pumps Working Group Meeting 03-04-2014

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 3 1 A P P E A R A N C E S 2 LOUIS STARR, Northwest Energy Efficiency Alliance (NEEA) 3 STEVE THOMPSON, TACO 4 GREG TOWSLEY, Grundfos USA 5 MEG WALTNER, Natural Resources Defense Council 6 (via telephone) 7 DAN WEINTRAUB, Navigant 8 SARAH WIDDER, Pacific Northwest National Lab 9 ALISON WILLIAMS, Lawrence Berkeley National Lab 10 11 12 * * * * * 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22

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Commerical and Industrial Pumps Working Group Meeting 03-04-2014

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 4 1 P R O C E E D I N G S 2 MR. BROOKMAN: Good morning, everyone. 3 Welcome. Glad to see you here. Are you picking up 4 okay? 5 THE REPORTER: Yes. 6 MR. BROOKMAN: Ok. This is the Commercial 7 and Industrial Pumps negotiated rulemaking Working 8 Group. Today is March 4th, 2014 here in Washington, 9 D.C. This is the third meeting of this Working Group. 10 Let me welcome you this morning. 11 My name is Doug Brookman, Public Solutions 12 in Baltimore. Let's just start with introductions 13 around the room. And I'll start to my immediate 14 right. Please say your name and organizational 15 affiliation. 16 MR. BARBOUR: Bob Barbour, TACO. 17 MR. HUBER: Al Huber, Patterson Pump. 18 MR. HANDZEL: Mark Handzel with Xylem. 19 MR. CASE: Greg Case, Hydraulic Institute. 20 MR. CAPPELLINO: Charlie Cappellino, ITT 21 Corporation. 22 MR. STARR: Louis Starr, NEEA.

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Commerical and Industrial Pumps Working Group Meeting 03-04-2014

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 5 1 MS. MAUER: Joanna Mauer at Appliance 2 Standards Awareness Project. 3 MR. LIN: Paul Lin with Regal Beloit. 4 MR. POWERS: Chuck Powers, Flowserve 5 Corporation. 6 MS. KOHL: Betsy Kohl, DOE general counsel. 7 MR. ADIN: Lucas Adin, DOE. 8 MR. BROOKMAN: Sarah? 9 MS. WIDDER: Sarah Widder, Pacific Northwest 10 National Lab. 11 MS. WILLIAMS: Alison Williams, Lawrence 12 Berkeley National Lab. 13 Mr. Thompson: Steve Thompson, TACO 14 MR. BROOKMAN: Thank you. 15 Jeremiah, introduce yourself. 16 MR. FREEMAN: Oh. Jeremiah Freeman, New 17 West Technologies. 18 MR. BROOKMAN: Thank you. 19 And we have a few individuals who are 20 joining us via the web, I believe. 21 MR. FREEMAN: Yes, two members. We have Meg 22 Waltner on the line and Tom Eckman. They're unmuted.

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Commerical and Industrial Pumps Working Group Meeting 03-04-2014

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 6 1 And then we also have Al Iseppon, Brent McManis, and 2 Erica Johnson. 3 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Welcome. Thanks to 4 all of you for joining us. We have had some bad 5 weather here on the East Coast, as anybody who tried 6 to travel in here has found out. Yesterday the 7 Department of Energy was closed; correct? 8 MALE SPEAKER: Yes. 9 MR. BROOKMAN: And I think all the federal 10 agencies were closed yesterday, so some disruptions 11 due to weather. And some of the members have not been 12 able to travel. We are expecting one or two 13 additional members to be joining us perhaps as the day 14 goes on today. In any event, we are glad you are here 15 and apologies for the unaccommodative weather. 16 All of you received a packet of information 17 when we came in this morning. If you take a peek at 18 the first page of that packet, Lucas and I consulted 19 before the meeting. We don't have a specific agenda 20 for the meeting, but we have these agenda elements as 21 listed here on page -- it would be page 2 of this 22 meeting's summary -- and wanted to just have a general

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Commerical and Industrial Pumps Working Group Meeting 03-04-2014

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 7 1 discussion here at the front end about the sequencing 2 on this. 3 You can see the first item, "Federal 4 Preemption." Betsy Kohl sent around a memo in which 5 she addressed the issue of federal preemption. 6 Perhaps we could start with that and have some 7 additional discussion on that issue. 8 The "Feasibility Timeline if DOE Does a 9 Follow-on Rulemaking," that was also addressed in 10 Betsy's memo. So maybe those two items would be a 11 place to start. 12 And then "Define Scope of the Negotiation," 13 that would be a follow-on from the last meeting that 14 we had and "Clearly Define Scope for Negotiation 15 Coverage" and then "Define Covered Product." And 16 then, in addition, as you see, "Metrics." 17 I don't have any strong feelings about the 18 sequence here except that maybe we'll start with 19 Betsy. Any additional thoughts on the sequence? It 20 was productive last time to do exclusions and 21 parameters before we zeroed in on this colorful sheet, 22 "Scope of Negotiations."

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Commerical and Industrial Pumps Working Group Meeting 03-04-2014

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 8 1 And, Chuck, you sent a detailed memo giving 2 your recommendations. So maybe that's another thing 3 that we should probably have near the top of the list. 4 Any additional thoughts before we kind of launch into 5 this chart? 6 MR. POWERS: Just one point is I think it's 7 important that we do understand which products or 8 which grouping before we get into other discussions. 9 That way we know what we're dealing with; right? 10 MR. BROOKMAN: Right. 11 MR. POWERS: There may be some impact to 12 that. It's up to the team. 13 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Lucas? 14 MR. ADIN: Yes. I think that's what we had 15 in mind, is we go back in the scope up front and see 16 if we can reach some resolution on what we are going 17 to do on that. I don't know if we are necessarily 18 going to be in a position to vote today since not 19 everyone is here. I mean, we have got a couple online, 20 but I don't know how comfortable folks would be doing 21 an actual vote. I mean, we put "Vote" up there, but we 22 can do that either today or tomorrow, whenever. So we

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Commerical and Industrial Pumps Working Group Meeting 03-04-2014

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 9 1 can cover as much ground as we feel comfortable 2 covering today. 3 MR. POWERS: My only view of that would be 4 that if we do get a basic understanding of what that 5 is going to be, we don't have to rehash that again 6 tomorrow; right? 7 MR. BROOKMAN: Yes. 8 MR. POWERS: In other words, a vote is a 9 vote, not necessarily like tomorrow but not actually 10 regurgitate everything five more times. 11 MR. ADIN: Right, sure, sure. Okay. 12 MR. BROOKMAN: So, Chuck, thank you. 13 That was Chuck. And now to Louis? 14 MR. STARR: So I think Gary -- on the 15 circulator stuff, maybe we can put that off until 16 tomorrow or whenever. Gary did discuss some data from 17 his California thing. So maybe we can postpone that 18 conversation so we don't have to rehash it, but maybe 19 we can cover the other things that we have and talk 20 about that stuff. 21 MR. BROOKMAN: Good. Okay. Thank you, 22 Louis.

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Commerical and Industrial Pumps Working Group Meeting 03-04-2014

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 10 1 Then, Betsy, do you want to start? 2 MS. KOHL: I don't have anything more -- 3 MR. BROOKMAN: To add? 4 MS. KOHL: -- to say on the written piece. 5 This is the Department's legal position. 6 MR. BROOKMAN: Do we have questions related 7 to what Betsy has written here? 8 MR. BARBOUR: Is that in this -- I'm sorry. 9 This is Bob Barbour. Was that sent out to all of us? 10 MS. KOHL: It's on SharePoint. 11 MR. BARBOUR: I saw your email. I didn't 12 know if it was the same document. 13 MR. BROOKMAN: Yes. And, Betsy, the one 14 thing, I thought you covered preemption quite clearly. 15 And then on the issue of if DOE does a follow-on 16 feasibility timeline if DOE does a follow-on 17 rulemaking, I believe you said the Department would be 18 receptive to this, especially if ASRAC wanted to do it 19 but you didn't in that memo make any kind of a 20 commitment about a timeline. 21 MR. ADIN: Well, I mean, we can't foresee 22 what ASRAC might be willing to approve, obviously. So

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Commerical and Industrial Pumps Working Group Meeting 03-04-2014

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 11 1 as far as timeline goes, I mean, I think the most 2 expeditious process would likely be if ASRAC were to 3 approve the continuation of this Working Group to 4 consider these other types as a follow-on to this 5 rule, which conceivably they could do. 6 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. 7 MR. ADIN: And if that were to not happen, 8 then DOE would proceed by its regular process and 9 conduct a rulemaking that way, which is a little bit 10 more likely of the process. 11 MR. BROOKMAN: Yes. Okay. 12 MR. ADIN: Conceivably we could take it up 13 immediately following the conclusion of this 14 proceeding. 15 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Yes? 16 MR. HANDZEL: Mark Handzel from Xylem, just 17 to ask questions on that. 18 MR. ADIN: Yes. 19 MR. HANDZEL: So after this meeting, if we 20 decide to do circulators as a separate rulemaking, we 21 would have to take it to ASRAC and get them to vote 22 and approve a separate rulemaking?

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Commerical and Industrial Pumps Working Group Meeting 03-04-2014

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 12 1 MR. ADIN: Yes, because ASRAC only 2 authorized this group to do a certain -- so once we 3 exclude all of these other things from the scope of 4 the rule, we do one rulemaking on pumps, to the extent 5 we want to do a separate follow-on standards 6 rulemaking, they have to give us authorization to do - 7

- 8 MR. HANDZEL: Right. Mark Handzel from 9 Xylem again. But they didn't really define what the 10 scope of this rulemaking was, but I guess because if 11 we want to have a second one, we have to -- okay. 12 MR. ADIN: That's my understanding. 13 MR. HANDZEL: Okay. 14 MR. ADIN: I mean, we can get some further 15 clarification if we need it, but, you know, based on 16 my discussions with folks -- 17 MR. HANDZEL: So we can't start a separate 18 working group without their approval is the bottom 19 line. 20 MR. ADIN: Yes, that's my understanding. 21 MR. HANDZEL: Okay. Right. 22 MR. HUBER: Is it your --

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Commerical and Industrial Pumps Working Group Meeting 03-04-2014

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 13 1 MR. BROOKMAN: Al Huber? 2 MR. HUBER: Huber, Patterson. Is it your 3 feeling that they will probably authorize or not 4 authorize or do you have a feeling one way or the 5 other? 6 MR. ADIN: No, no. I don't have a sense 7 right now. I mean, it just came up. So I don't. 8 MS. KOHL: We wouldn't know until they vote. 9 MR. ADIN: Right. 10 MR. HUBER: When would that be? 11 MR. HANDZEL: Yes. Do you know when the 12 next meeting is? 13 MR. ADIN: I think -- 14 MS. KOHL: We can check. Maybe when we get 15 back, we can -- 16 MR. ADIN: Yes. It's in a couple of months, 17 I believe. 18 MR. BROOKMAN: Bob Barbour? 19 MR. BARBOUR: Well, wouldn't they take a 20 recommendation from this group under advisement as to 21 how it has to happen? 22 MR. ADIN: I think so, yes. Yes. I have to

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Commerical and Industrial Pumps Working Group Meeting 03-04-2014

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 14 1 admit I'm not 100 percent familiar with exactly how 2 the process works, but yes, that's my understanding is 3 that we make a recommendation. 4 MR. BROOKMAN: So that was Lucas speaking. 5 I'm going to keep trying to create a cogent record 6 here. Is someone online? 7 MR. ADIN: That's Tom. 8 MR. HUBER: Tom. 9 MR. BROOKMAN: Tom Eckman, please speak up. 10 MR. ECKMAN: Yes. Doug, can you hear me? 11 MR. BROOKMAN: We hear you fine. You're 12 coming in good. 13 MR. ECKMAN: Great. ASRAC has two days out 14 there for potential meetings: either March 19th or 15 April 14th. It hasn't been arrived at yet. So if we 16 were to I think take a proposal to them at that 17 meeting following this one, we could get pretty rapid 18 consideration of that option. 19 MR. BROOKMAN: Great. 20 MR. ECKMAN: So as the ASRAC member on the 21 Committee, I would be glad to take that forward if 22 there is a proposal we could come to agreement on.

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Commerical and Industrial Pumps Working Group Meeting 03-04-2014

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 15 1 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Thank you, Tom. I'm 2 glad you could join us via the phone. 3 And, Meg, I understand you are on the phone 4 as well? 5 (No response.) 6 MR. BROOKMAN: Maybe she is muted. Okay. 7 But we're glad you could join us. 8 Louis Starr? 9 MR. STARR: So one of the things that the 10 idea of -- Louis Starr with NEEA -- the idea of making 11 this into a separate rulemaking, I'm trying to 12 understand the benefit or why we might do that or what 13 is the DOE's thinking in explaining these are the two 14 separate rulemakings as far as like the circulators 15 and this scope for the -- I hate to say of Lot 11 but 16

-- 17 MR. ADIN: Right. 18 MR. BROOKMAN: Lucas? 19 MR. ADIN: Well, speaking for DOE's part, it 20 is, in large part, a matter of timing. I think we had 21 a vision for how we would like to see this proceed and 22 a certain timeline, which we had discussed, you know,

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Commerical and Industrial Pumps Working Group Meeting 03-04-2014

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 16 1 as part of the initial discussions in this group. And 2 our sense was that, at least for the main group of 3 pumps that we're considering, the Lot 11, it was most 4 likely to be feasible to accomplish rulemaking within 5 that timeline with those, that with circulators, it 6 seemed like there might be additional data that we 7 need to gather or just there was a lot less that we 8 knew. And so it might unnecessarily delay progress on 9 achieving energy savings for those other pumps if we 10 did try to tackle circulators up front. So I think 11 that is generally -- 12 MR. BROOKMAN: Al Huber? 13 MR. HUBER: From our perspective, Louis, 14 because the motor speeds are so different and because 15 it's a different animal, instead of having a separate 16 VFD and a separate motor, it's all combined into one 17 unit, trying to write I think a rulemaking around what 18 we're trying to write it around plus that, trying to 19 find a way to marry that in there, we think that the 20 language would be difficult, maybe confusing, and may 21 cause issues. So that was our feeling. It would be 22 better as a separate. And I think we probably should

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Commerical and Industrial Pumps Working Group Meeting 03-04-2014

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 17 1 write that up if we would want to make that proposal, 2 as to our reasons for that, to present that to ASRAC. 3 MR. BROOKMAN: Louis, follow-on? 4 MR. STARR: So Louis Starr with NEEA, kind 5 of what Al is talking about there, in theory, though, 6 that could happen. In other words, you have a 7 requirement for a certain class of pumps that are 8 different. So, in other words, the requirements to 9 Lot 11 that you're talking about could be ones that 10 are standard just out to a certain way. And then the 11 circulators could be developed with a set of 12 regulations run another way. 13 MR. ADIN: Right. 14 MR. STARR: So, essentially, it's really 15 just -- I think it sounds like it's more a question of 16 timing, mainly gathering data and other things, more 17 to support information necessary to make a rulemaking. 18 MR. ADIN: Yes. 19 MR. STARR: It sounds like administratively 20 it's not necessarily a problem so much other than 21 getting information necessary to make the -- 22 MR. ADIN: Right. So from a legal and

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Commerical and Industrial Pumps Working Group Meeting 03-04-2014

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 18 1 administrative standpoint, I think that's something we 2 can deal with; right, the fact that these pumps are 3 different. And we can write a regulation that 4 addresses each type of pump appropriately. 5 So I don't know that for DOE's part, we're 6 as concerned about that part of it. It's more that 7 because these pumps are considerably different than a 8 lot of the other pumps we're looking at for this rule. 9 The market is different. The economic aspects of 10 making them more efficient might be different. And 11 there's a lot of data that we just don't have. You 12 know, the aspects of data collection if we need for 13 establishing that any standards that we're considering 14 are technologically feasible and economically 15 justified for DOE's analytical purposes could be 16 longer or just considerably different than it would be 17 for these other pumps. So I think that was the main 18 concern that we had up front -- 19 MR. BROOKMAN: So that was Lucas and back to 20

-- 21 MR. ADIN: -- with respect to -- 22 MR. BROOKMAN: Lucas. Now back to Louis.

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Commerical and Industrial Pumps Working Group Meeting 03-04-2014

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 19 1 MR. STARR: So Louis Starr with NEEA. One of 2 my thoughts, though, too, is the circulators -- I'm 3 thinking of the group that are at this table. Let's 4 say 4 of 20 people. 5 (inaudible) 6 But I was also wondering in terms of the time element 7 that you have. These meetings are going to be seven 8 to eight meetings inside of six months. And so that 9 if you continue on to the circulator rule, you could 10 mirror that exact same amount of time. Yet, the 11 amount of pumps that people are -- you know, the 12 manufacturer, like Flowserve -- or does Flowserve want 13 to really come here and talk about circulators? They 14 don't actually make any; right? So I kind of wonder 15 if you -- well, Charles, you can speak to that, but in 16 general, it sounds like the interest if you go on to 17 another ASRAC rulemaking, it's a very small subset of 18 all the pumps. 19 MR. ADIN: Yes. 20 MR. STARR: And I kind of wonder about the 21 practicality of how that Working Group might actually 22 work.

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Commerical and Industrial Pumps Working Group Meeting 03-04-2014

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 20 1 MR. POWERS: We think, from a Flowserve 2 standpoint, the aspects to that may affect those 3 products down the road. Decisions on it may affect 4 it. 5 Secondly, what we're responding to here is - 6 - it doesn't say what we're going to do in some other 7 countries and some other places. So I think what 8 we're dealing with is strictly U.S. So if we are 9 engaged -- and I'm not authorized to say at this point 10 -- in something in another country, it wouldn't affect 11 it anyway but a good basis to manufacturing -- and we 12 talked about that before. 13 So, again, I think the people at the table 14 have more to say about it. And I'll sit and listen. 15 But it could impact other things. And I think we need 16 to stay engaged just to be aware of how we change it. 17 MR. BROOKMAN: So that was Chuck. Now to 18 Charlie? 19 MR. CAPPELLINO: Charlie Cappellino, ITT. I 20 guess there are two possibilities here. One, the 21 Committee could stay intact in terms of the 22 membership, which, actually, you could basically --

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Commerical and Industrial Pumps Working Group Meeting 03-04-2014

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 21 1 MR. BROOKMAN: Configure. 2 MR. CAPPELLINO: -- reset the membership of 3 the Committee depending on the scope of -- 4 MR. BROOKMAN: Yes. 5 MR. CAPPELLINO: -- the next rulemaking. So 6 I'm not saying one way or another what ITT would 7 choose to do, but certainly that would be a 8 possibility. 9 MR. BROOKMAN: Yes. 10 MR. ADIN: Yes. I mean, Tom will correct me 11 if I'm wrong, I'm sure, but I think my understanding 12 is that, even if the Working Group is reapproved to do 13 another rule, it doesn't mean that the membership is 14 fixed. I think the composition of the group can 15 change. 16 MR. BROOKMAN: Al Huber? That was Lucas. 17 Now to Al Huber? 18 MR. HUBER: I think several meetings ago, I 19 spoke for the industry and said the industry was 20 willing to do this and invest the time. And we are as 21 an industry. So there will be no problem in us 22 supporting whatever time is necessary to do a

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Commerical and Industrial Pumps Working Group Meeting 03-04-2014

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 22 1 rulemaking on circulators. 2 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Good. So that was a 3 useful conversation. Final comments before we move on 4 from this? Louis, it was a good idea. Gary is 5 intimately involved in these issues of circulators. 6 So we won't try and do anything specific on that until 7 tomorrow or whenever he shows up. 8 Maybe we should go from here to talking 9 about exclusions. And maybe we should look at the 10 memo that Chuck provided. Are you passing the slides? 11 MS. WILLIAMS: I was going to. 12 MR. BROOKMAN: The logic that we employed 13 last time I think worked well. Let's talk about 14 exclusions. Let's talk about parameters as a way to 15 refine and narrow the potential scope. So let's do 16 that next. And, Chuck, I thought your memo was quite 17 clear, but I'm not sure everybody has seen it or that 18 they have a copy of it in front of them. Maybe we 19 should go through it. 20 MR. POWERS: Yes. I can read through it or 21 whatever you think or do you want to get right 22

--

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Commerical and Industrial Pumps Working Group Meeting 03-04-2014

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 23 1 MS. WILLIAMS: We could load it on -- do you 2 want me to load it on the computer? 3 MR. BROOKMAN: I think that would be great 4 if you have it. 5 MR. POWERS: I tried to respond to I think 6 Lucas. I think everybody should have a copy of it. 7 MR. BROOKMAN: And let me note for the 8 record that Doug Potts has joined us. Welcome. 9 MR. POTTS: Good morning. 10 MR. BROOKMAN: I know the roads were bad. 11 Glad you made it. 12 MR. POTTS: Everything was delayed. 13 MR. BROOKMAN: Why don't you start while 14 they're figuring out how to load this? 15 MR. POWERS: Okay. At the last meeting, as 16 I understood, Al and the team stepped up and asked me 17 to respond to the four categories, which were the fire 18 pumps -- I call them the M&Ns that we've been involved 19 with for years -- the fire pumps, the Navy, the 20 nuclear, and the marine. So what I tried to do was to 21 -- instead of just rushing into it, which we seemed to 22 be doing at the last meeting, I wanted just to get a

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Commerical and Industrial Pumps Working Group Meeting 03-04-2014

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 24 1 little bit better understanding from various people. 2 I reached out to some people that I used to work with 3 in the Navy, spec writers, actually some naval people; 4 right, in that category and others. So I just wanted 5 to get. 6 You had it up there a minute ago, which is 7 on page 4 of the handout, there was the comment on 8 fire pumps. And it says, "Exclude if it's certified 9 NFPA by UL or FM." So all I wanted to clarify was the 10 word "certified." I'd rather just change it to say, 11 "Compliance with NFPA 20 and UL/FM-certified." So 12 that's the minor change, as I said at the end of my 13 paragraph, but I'll read it, "NFPA 20 is a spec. It's 14 not a certifying authority. Similar to API, similar 15 to many others, it's a specification, not necessarily 16 authority." Now, people when they write specs will 17 then require additional things, testing and other 18 stuff, but it's a guideline and a specification. 19 "The definition here is about compliance, 20 not certification. The NFPA 20 spec has very specific 21 technical requirements. FM," which is Factory Mutual, 22 "or UL," which is Underwriters Laboratory, "are

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Commerical and Industrial Pumps Working Group Meeting 03-04-2014

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 25 1 certifying authorities of various technical factors 2 and also, to a certain degree, insurance reasons. 3 There are companies out there that can't get a permit 4 to run a facility, however big or large or small it 5 is, unless they get insurance. And the only way to 6 get insurance is make sure, fire protection," this all 7 the way down the line, and that's one of them; right? 8 So, for an example, offshore platforms. 9 Certain companies out there -- and I could name one as 10 being Exxon; right? They are self-insured. They don't 11 necessarily meet, but they will imply NFPA 20. Okay? 12 So basically I tried to keep it in simple, 13 saying "fire pumps equals." And I said, "A fire pump 14 is" -- it would be incorrect to say, which is on here, 15 "A fire pump is certified to National Fire Protection 16 Association, NFPA, 20 standard. The word 'certifies' 17 is incorrect in my opinion, and 'compliant' might be 18 better." 19 Also, there are groups out there that go 20 both ways, where they will say, "We need NFPA spec" or 21 they will say, "We need NFPA and UL- listed." So it 22 can go either.

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Commerical and Industrial Pumps Working Group Meeting 03-04-2014

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 26 1 So all I was saying at the very end, the 2 recommendation at the bottom there, for the Working 3 Group was "Fire pumps equals compliance with NFPA 20 4 specification." 5 MR. BROOKMAN: Questions, comments on that? 6 Joanna? 7 MS. MAUER: Joanna Mauer. Chuck, these 8 pumps that you are referring to are these cases where 9 pumps meet the specification, they aren't certified 10 because the companies have their own insurance. Are 11 these pumps that would fall in the scope of coverage 12 in what we're talking about, horsepower range and 13 everything? 14 MR. POWERS: They can. The types of fire 15 pumps that are out there if you take an offshore 16 platform will go two ways. They have to get to the 17 direct source of water. They cannot rely on a 18 secondary system to draw water from because if that 19 secondary system is on fire, then they can't put it 20 out. So they put them down the case line. And the 21 tubes are either floating, semi-submersible, or stay 22 on the ground. And that would be a submersible. So

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Commerical and Industrial Pumps Working Group Meeting 03-04-2014

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 27 1 the six-inch could be in that category. 2 The other is a vertical turbine, where they 3 stick it down in the fluid. And it's usually at a -- 4 it depends on the mezzanine protection because, you 5 know, because, again, fire and platform. And then on 6 on-land -- and, by the way, those are mostly diesel7 driven, not motor-driven because they don't want to 8 rely on the backup powers. Then on-site, meaning on9 land, there are whole variations: horizontal, 10 vertical, but, again, the source water. The basic 11 product is different the way NFPA requires; right, you 12 know, the conditions of service, certain categories, 13 and the technical aspects. But it can be some of Lot 14 11. And I hope, you know, some of the people here 15 would agree on submersible, the six-inch, but then 16 other products also. 17 MR. HUBER: The proper way to designate 18 this, you know, he's right. It's not certified. 19 It is compliant to NFPA 20. And UL-listed 20 is the correct way to say that and FM-approved. So 21 you should say: "compliant with NF 20 and UL-listed 22 and/or, and/or, FM-approved." That's the proper way

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Commerical and Industrial Pumps Working Group Meeting 03-04-2014

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 28 1 to designate this. 2 MR. BROOKMAN: Lucas, go ahead. 3 MR. ADIN: Question on that point. Would it 4 have to be UL-listed or FM-approved? I mean, could 5 some other organization certify? 6 MR. HUBER: There are different. We hold 7 certifications in Poland. 8 MR. ADIN: Yes. 9 MR. HUBER: We hold some in France. But 10 we're talking about the U.S. 11 MR. ADIN: Yes. 12 MR. HUBER: So in the U.S., the only two 13 that I know of -- 14 MR. ADIN: Yes. 15 MR. HUBER: -- and am aware of are UL -- 16 MR. ADIN: Yes. 17 MR. HUBER: -- and FM. 18 MR. ADIN: Understood. I think -- 19 MR. POWERS: Lloyd's of London, other 20 certifying groups, but most of those were offshore. 21 When I say "offshore," across the water or -- 22 MR. ADIN: Yes.

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Commerical and Industrial Pumps Working Group Meeting 03-04-2014

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 29 1 MR. BROOKMAN: That was Chuck. Now back to 2 Lucas? 3 MR. ADIN: We would want to be careful about 4 specifically identifying certifying bodies in the 5 definition because if you read the definition that 6 way, it means only those certifying bodies can make a 7 pump a "fire pump." You know what I mean? So if we 8 say it's only UL, if you just leave that part out -- 9 MR. HUBER: Certified bodies can't make it, 10 but the manufacturers who have the certification can. 11 MR. ADIN: Right, but only UL or FM could 12 actually certify it as compliant with -- 13 MR. HUBER: They do today. 14 MR. ADIN: They do today; right. But if 15 someone else came along and had the capability, they 16 couldn't use them or -- you know what I mean? 17 MR. HUBER: Well, you could add the 18 verbiage, -- 19 MR. POWERS: Right. 20 MR. HUBER: -- "or any additional" -- 21 MR. POWERS: "Or equal." 22 MR. HUBER: "Or equal."

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Commerical and Industrial Pumps Working Group Meeting 03-04-2014

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 30 1 MR. ADIN: DOE actually does have a 2 definition of fire pump electric motor since fire pump 3 motors are covered right now in the standards. And, 4 for the benefit of everyone here, that definition 5 reads, "Fire pump electric motor means an electric 6 motor, including any IEC equivalent, that meets the 7 requirements of section 9.5 of NFPA 20." 8 MR. HUBER: Well, then -- 9 MR. ADIN: And that's all that says. 10 MR. HUBER: Yes, but NFPA 20 specifically 11 says it has to be UL-listed. There's the rub. 12 MR. ADIN: So it's actually in -- 13 MR. HUBER: It's in there already. So you 14 reference NFPA 20 and, therefore, you get a UL-listed 15 motor for fire pump service. 16 MR. POWERS: Yes. And so everybody is clear 17 -- this is Chuck again -- all I was trying to do is I 18 was worried about the first words up there -- 19 MR. BROOKMAN: Yes. 20 MR. POWERS: -- that said, "certified by 21 NFPA 20." 22 MR. BROOKMAN: Yes.

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Commerical and Industrial Pumps Working Group Meeting 03-04-2014

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 31 1 MR. POWERS: I'm okay with everybody saying 2 just "It's compliant." They don't certify. That's no 3 problem. So I was just trying to clarify the actual - 4

- 5 MR. BROOKMAN: So I didn't think we answered 6 Joanna's question fully. The thrust of her question - 7 - I don't want to put words in your mouth, Joanna -- 8 was -- 9 MS. MAUER: Actually -- 10 MR. BROOKMAN: Go ahead, Joanna. 11 MS. MAUER: So getting the UL listing or the 12 FM approval is equivalent to what we have been saying 13 as getting the pumps certified. 14 MR. HUBER: That is correct; right. 15 MS. MAUER: There's a cost involved with 16

-- 17 MR. POWERS: Right. 18 MS. MAUER: -- being UL-listed. 19 MR. POWERS: To help answer your question -- 20 Chuck again -- if any one of us took a pump off the 21 shelf and said, "We want to apply it to FM, UL, or 22 NFPA 20," you can't do that because you basically have

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Commerical and Industrial Pumps Working Group Meeting 03-04-2014

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 32 1 to take these products. You have to give it to them. 2 They have to do destructive testing. They have to do 3 other stuff. They check materials. If there are any 4 electrical devices on there, how is that box 5 protected? Is it some type of square cap and then 6 different things? There's a whole list of things that 7 you have to go through. So you just don't do it 8 unless you can comply. 9 MR. ECKMAN: Right. 10 MS. MAUER: This is Joanna. Thank you, 11 Chuck. So you're okay with the requirement that it be 12 UL-listed for -- 13 MR. POWERS: Yes. I didn't have an issue 14 there. It was the word "certified." 15 MR. BROOKMAN: "Certified." 16 MR. HUBER: It's compliant with. 17 MR. POWERS: Compliant with. 18 MS. MAUER: Okay. 19 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. 20 MR. HUBER: What they saying is -- so that I 21 can explain it. 22 MR. BROOKMAN: Yes. Al?

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Commerical and Industrial Pumps Working Group Meeting 03-04-2014

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 33 1 MR. HUBER: What they're saying, what 2 they're saying, is by listing it or approving it in 3 the case of FM is that, actually, the product actually 4 meets NFPA 20. That's how the user knows that he's 5 getting an actual fire pump that has been tested for 6 that service. 7 MR. ADIN: So a manufacture can't just claim 8 it's -- 9 MR. HUBER: No, you can't claim it. You 10 have to have it on your label. 11 MR. ADIN: Right. 12 MR. HUBER: The fire marshals around this 13 country go out and look at those labels to make sure 14 that -- 15 MR. POWERS: Right, yes. 16 MR. HUBER: And the insurance companies do 17 the same, to make sure that the companies are using 18 only UL-listed or FM-approved -- 19 MR. ADIN: Yes. 20 MR. HUBER: -- equipment, period. 21 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. 22 MR. POWERS: And then the only thing I want

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Commerical and Industrial Pumps Working Group Meeting 03-04-2014

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 34 1 to clarify -- Chuck again -- is that, Lucas, in your 2 definition is it can be diesel-driven. It can be 3 motor-driven. It can be -- 4 MR. HUBER: It can be anything. 5 MR. POWERS: There's a whole litany, but 6 that's all covered. And it says if you're going to be 7 diesel-driven, X. 8 MR. ADIN: Yes. 9 MR. POWERS: And there's a whole set of 10 issues with diesels -- 11 MR. ADIN: Right. 12 MR. POWERS: -- aspirators to startup 13 systems to some -- 14 MR. HUBER: Gear boxes and so forth. 15 MR. ADIN: Right. Understood, yes. I just 16 read that definition so that when you hear the 17 verbiage and how they, you know, wrote the criteria -- 18 MR. POWERS: So now -- 19 MR. BROOKMAN: That was Lucas. Now back to 20 Chuck? 21 MR. POWERS: Yes. Sorry. One last 22 clarification. I talked to my friends overseas, both

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Commerical and Industrial Pumps Working Group Meeting 03-04-2014

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 35 1 in Asia, which is very heavy. I went to Caterpillar, 2 who specializes in diesels just for fire pumps, and a 3 whole bunch of people. They didn't get into the 4 FM/UL. They were totally satisfied with leaving it, 5 you know, as fire pumps just because of, back to your 6 point, the certified bodies. And it just expands on 7 that. But, you know, I think if we leave it as 8 compliant, then we have written down -- I'm okay with 9 it. 10 MR. BROOKMAN: Louis? 11 MR. STARR: Louis Starr, NEEA. Does the 12 compliant data mean compliant? Do you get a label on 13 your pump saying it's compliant? 14 MR. HUBER: I'm sorry? 15 MR. STARR: Do you get a label on your pump 16 saying it's compliant? 17 MR. HUBER: No. 18 MR. STARR: You don't? 19 MR. BROOKMAN: Al Huber? No. Yes? 20 MR. HUBER: This is Al Huber. No. You have 21 a label. And, as a matter of fact, you have to send 22 in your nameplate to UL and FM. And they have to

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Commerical and Industrial Pumps Working Group Meeting 03-04-2014

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 36 1 approve it, its size, what's on it, the fact that 2 their label is on it -- 3 MR. POWERS: What year it is issued. 4 MR. HUBER: They come in periodically and 5 check it. They come in periodically and witness 6 tests. I mean, it is very stringent. 7 So I guess what -- I am trying to give 8 Joanna some comfort here. If we say it is UL/FM and 9 that is what you put here, then that is what it is 10 going to be. And it is not going to be off in some 11 other service. 12 MR. BROOKMAN: Lucas? 13 MR. ADIN: But, just as a point of 14 clarification, my understanding of the way that UL 15 listing works is they have categories of products or 16 equipment. And so if they list it, if they would have 17 a category for fire pumps maybe, you would be putting 18 the UL listing on the label. And that would be what 19 UL has. Is that right? 20 MR. HUBER: Yes. UL on their website -- 21 MR. ADIN: Yes. 22 MR. HUBER: -- publishes everybody's

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Commerical and Industrial Pumps Working Group Meeting 03-04-2014

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 37 1 listing. 2 MR. ADIN: Right. Right. 3 MR. HUBER: So you can go to that website 4 for that manufacturer and look and see if that 5 particular pump, model, and flow conditions have been 6 approved by FM or listed by UL. 7 MR. POWERS: And then -- Chuck again -- also 8 to have my experience after all of these years, 9 probably very few Lot 11, you know, would apply to 10 fire pumps, very few of any of those products. The 11 reason is offshore platforms, there are requirements. 12 They need in excess of 2,000 gallons. Okay? That's 13 what they have. Those are 10-inch, 12-inch, 30-inch 14 pumps. A building like this if we went downstairs and 15 found that they would be fairly large, they would be 16 much larger than two is my speculation. They might 17 find some small ones and keep them out of there, but, 18 you know, chances are they need a lot of work. So 19 it's not anything small. You know, I don't know. The 20 guys that do the circulators -- 21 MR. HUBER: It isn't going to be a -- 22 MR. POWERS: It ain't going to be a

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Commerical and Industrial Pumps Working Group Meeting 03-04-2014

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 38 1 circulator. That's my guess. 2 MR. HUBER: No. 3 MR. POWERS: And the second parameter is 4 pressure. You know, they have to maintain a certain 5 pressure they give them because of all the nozzles and 6 so forth. 7 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Good. So I want to do 8 kind of a preliminary confirmation. We're good with 9 these edits, as reflected by Alison's edits up here on 10 the board. We're moving on. And this one is now 11 settled, it seems. Okay. Now we're moving on. Go to 12 Navy pumps. 13 MR. POWERS: Next is -- 14 MR. BROOKMAN: Chuck? 15 MR. POWERS: -- on Navy pumps. Thanks. I 16 should speak in Gaelic. Then you'd all know what I 17 was talking about. 18 Communication with specialists within the 19 industry and engineering firms involved in the Navy. 20 My own experience -- I didn't expand on that -- the 21 Navy is mostly concerned about making sure that the 22 units are not overloading, they have some very

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Commerical and Industrial Pumps Working Group Meeting 03-04-2014

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 39 1 stringent requirements, the motors and/or the drivers. 2 Our consumption is not an issue. 3 And, for what it's worth -- maybe Lucas can 4 help me -- I asked these guys specifically, is 5 efficiency an issue? And it's about not overloading. 6 It's not about the efficiency, from what he told me. 7 It's not even in the specifications. Okay? And I 8 opened up sort of my old ones. I mean, I have the 9 most recent ones. I opened up those. 10 Specifically, if it's a nuclear-powered 11 vessel, there's obviously ample power available. And 12 they're more concerned with design factors and 13 reliability that I can't really get into. So Navy 14 pumps should be defined as a MIL specification 15 requirement. There are actually several MIL specs 16 involved based on the type of product and service 17 intended. The following MIL specs apply to pumps in 18 question, are very stringent requirements. And I have 19 listed them. There are five of them here. 20 And so my recommendation to the Working 21 Group is Navy pumps equals MIL specification22 compliant.

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Commerical and Industrial Pumps Working Group Meeting 03-04-2014

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 40 1 And if anybody wants to know, some of these 2 specs are there, four hundred pages. And, I mean, it 3 gets down to the bolting, number of threads per bolt, 4 to the materials, to noise, very, very stringent; 5 seriously, seriously doubt, in fact, without a 6 question, there is a pump we make we can take off the 7 shelf that would meet the spec. 8 MR. BROOKMAN: Right. Gotcha. Thank you, 9 Chuck. 10 Questions or comments on this 11 recommendation, "Navy pumps equals MIL specification12 compliant"? Louis? 13 MR. STARR: Louis Starr, NEEA. The military 14 specs change, though; right? 15 MR. POWERS: They get updated. It depends 16 on their venue. If they change a vessel, they may 17 make some requirements on pressures to -- I mean, 18 Lucas knows. There's a whole litany of things that 19 they change. 20 Their biggest issue is staying on top of 21 vibration and noise. They get very, very -- I don't 22 want to use the wrong word here -- very, very, you

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Commerical and Industrial Pumps Working Group Meeting 03-04-2014

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 41 1 know, pragmatic on noise and vibration. That's the big 2 deal. 3 MR. BROOKMAN: Right. Right. Okay. 4 MR. POWERS: Not so much as a carrier 5 because they make so much noise and they're so big you 6 can't miss them, but some of the other -- 7 MR. BROOKMAN: Yes. So thank you, Chuck. 8 Joanna? 9 MS. MAUER: Joanna Mauer. I think just the 10 thing that we want to make sure of we are following is 11 just that people won't start in the future using one 12 of these for a general application. And so if you can 13 just help us with each of these just understand why 14 this is the case? 15 MR. POWERS: This is Chuck. I'll give a 16 couple. And then I'll allow my cohorts here to share. 17 I would say that a MIL spec product, number one, is 18 probably 100 times more expensive. Okay? Number one. 19 That would be one of them. 20 Number two, knowing the Navy and knowing 21 some of the programs they have and of development, 22 they have a certified group of companies that they

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Commerical and Industrial Pumps Working Group Meeting 03-04-2014

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 42 1 work with. And it is very stringent. You know, I 2 don't know what Lucas -- 3 MS. MAUER: It's 100 times more expensive 4 than -- 5 MR. POWERS: Oh, I guarantee it. I'm using 6 that term loosely, but I'll -- 7 MR. BROOKMAN: Al Hubert? 8 MR. HUBER: It's usually an aluminum bronze 9 casing if it's a split case, which is four or five, 10 six times the cost of a cast iron case that you would 11 see in the -- 12 MR. POWERS: Super duplex? 13 MR. HUBER: Or super duplex stainless. 14 MR. POTTS: Titanium. 15 MR. HUBER: Yes. It's just -- 16 MR. POWERS: I'm not allowed to talk -- I've 17 got to be careful what I say. Go ahead. 18 MR. HUBER: Well, anyway, its exotic metals. 19 How about let's just say that: exotic metals? And 20 nobody in their right mind is going to use that for a 21 water pump. 22 MR. BROOKMAN: So I'm eager for us to keep

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Commerical and Industrial Pumps Working Group Meeting 03-04-2014

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 43 1 making progress. So if everybody is okay with what is 2 being described here as being MIL spec-compliant; 3 right? 4 MR. STARR: Louis Starr, NEEA. Can you 5 specify what those military specs are? There are 6 probably lots of military specs. 7 MR. BROOKMAN: Right. 8 MR. STARR: That doesn't have anything to do 9

-- 10 MR. POWERS: You could list these. You 11 could list these. 12 MR. STARR: Probably be the best thing to 13 do. 14 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. 15 MR. STARR: They change the -- 16 MR. POWERS: The spec number won't change, 17 but the rev might. 18 MR. BROOKMAN: So I think maybe it's useful 19 to list them. Okay. 20 MR. ADIN: Doug? 21 MR. BROOKMAN: Lucas? 22 MR. ADIN: I mean, it's a good question. And

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Commerical and Industrial Pumps Working Group Meeting 03-04-2014

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 44 1 I think for all of these, this one included, 2 realistically DOE will have to look at the best way to 3 wordsmith the definitions and come up with something 4 that, you know, from a legal standpoint will -- 5 MR. POWERS: Sure. 6 MR. ADIN: -- make sense as far as -- 7 MR. POWERS: Yes. This is Chuck again. My 8 purpose, it's up to the body to decide. 9 MR. ADIN: Right. 10 MR. POWERS: I'm just trying to give you my 11 best -- 12 MR. ADIN: Right. 13 MR. POWERS: -- views to people who could 14 share them with me. You know, how you guys decide, 15 that's a Working Group decision. I'm not trying to -- 16 MR. BROOKMAN: That's good. 17 MR. ADIN: Right. 18 MR. BROOKMAN: You know, this is helpful. 19 And subject, then, based on what Lucas said about the 20 Department, scanning through this, putting its stamp 21 of approval on the different definitions, then I'm 22 about to move on. We're okay with this one as far as

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Commerical and Industrial Pumps Working Group Meeting 03-04-2014

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 45 1 we know it right now; right? Okay. 2 Now, nuclear pumps. 3 MR. POWERS: Nuclear. This was a lot easier 4 to me. And I've been involved in these. We still are 5 very heavily. And there are other people at this 6 table who might be. 7 Nuclear products are defined as non-code or 8 code/safety-related. Non-code -- how can I say it? -- 9 would be, let's say, not in the primary turbine floor 10 cycle of dealing with the fluids or radioactive 11 activity. You might have a pump sitting outside the 12 nuclear plant that's just drawing water from a well. 13 It's giving water to the plant, but it's not inside 14 what's called the safety level. Okay? 15 Specification as applied here, again, very 16 stringent, is ASME section III. And we also see both 17 and sometimes individually the 10 CFR 50, which stands 18 for Code of Federal Regulations. That's the government 19 again requiring code. Okay? And the non-safety 20 products required still have significant design 21 requirements, rigorous NDE, non-destructive 22 examination, testing. You know, even though it's

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Commerical and Industrial Pumps Working Group Meeting 03-04-2014

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 46 1 going within that plant, you know, Charlie will tell 2 you, the others, you know, it still is very rigorous. 3 Now, pricewise, you know, again, -- I don't 4 know -- 10 times, 100 times, it varies. Right? And 5 the funny thing is some of the material may be pretty 6 basic, but it's all the testing that goes into it and 7 qualifications that go into it that makes the product 8 very expensive; right, in qualifying and stuff. So 9 ASME has to restrict the material code. They will go 10 all the way down to the S and the G's and, you know, 11 what type of boundaries and activity. 12 So, with that being said, my recommendation 13 to the group, again, is nuclear pumps equal code or 14 non-code/safety-related ASME section III or 10 CFR 50. 15 You know, I try to keep it as simple as possible 16 without getting into detail. 17 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. So comments or 18 questions on nuclear pumps with this description, 19 descriptor? Louis? 20 MR. STARR: Louis Starr, NEEA. Wouldn't it 21 be more accurate to say "complies with ASME section 22 III or 10 CFR," kind of the same things that are used

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Commerical and Industrial Pumps Working Group Meeting 03-04-2014

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 47 1 for the fire pumps. 2 MR. POWERS: Yes, you can. My only thing is 3 I think there's a good definition out there. When I 4 see specs and some of my cohorts here, they'll say 5 non-code or safety-related or code. You know, 6 standards pumps are here. Non- code are here. 7 Safety-related are here. Yes, you could because what 8 they will say is non-code to ASME section III; right, 9 or coded ASME section III and then you go into and 10 there are different activities in there. 11 MR. STARR: ASME III, though, is for non12 coded pumps. 13 MR. POWERS: It's code or non-code, yes. So 14 I'm open to, you know -- 15 MR. BROOKMAN: So, Louis, are you suggesting 16 some new language? 17 MR. STARR: Well, just to help out, I think 18 what she has there is fine. 19 MR. POWERS: That would be the cleanest. 20 MS. WILLIAMS: Just the top part? 21 MR. POWERS: Could you make that a little 22 larger?

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Commerical and Industrial Pumps Working Group Meeting 03-04-2014

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 48 1 MS. WILLIAMS: Yes. Okay? 2 MR. POWERS: Yes. 3 MR. BROOKMAN: Maybe it's "Complies with 4 ASME section III or 10 CFR 50." And then, 5 additionally, it says, "code or non-code/safety6 related." 7 MR. POWERS: No. You would say "non- code 8 or code/safety-related." 9 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. 10 MR. POWERS: "Non-code or code/." There you 11 go. 12 MS. WILLIAMS: Is this like in addition to 13 the top part or -- 14 MR. POWERS: It's a combination. 15 MR. ADIN: Is that ASME referring to a 16 particular ASME standard in section III? 17 MR. CASE: Yes, there's got to be. 18 MR. POWERS: Yes. 19 MR. CASE: We would have to identify which 20 one. 21 MR. ADIN: Yes. 22 MR. POWERS: It's the whole -- yes, it is,

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Commerical and Industrial Pumps Working Group Meeting 03-04-2014

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 49 1 but it's the whole section. I could go get that. 2 MR. ADIN: We would just have to specify 3 which one. 4 MR. POWERS: It's pressure vessel- coated, 5 yes. 6 MR. HUBER: Yes. 7 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. So that was Lucas 8 there and back to Chuck. Okay. So DOE says we need 9 to define what that ASME specification -- 10 MR. POWERS: Yes. Alison, also put a space 11 after "section III" before the "or." Whoa. 12 MS. WILLIAMS: Sorry. 13 MR. POWERS: No problem. 14 MS. WALTNER: Chuck, this is Meg. Can you 15 hear me? 16 MR. BROOKMAN: Yes. 17 MR. HUBER: Yes. 18 MS. WALTNER: This is Meg. Could you 19 explain further exactly what you mean by "non-code or 20 code/safety-related"? I'm confused exactly what that 21 language means. 22 MR. POWERS: Okay.

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Commerical and Industrial Pumps Working Group Meeting 03-04-2014

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 50 1 MR. BROOKMAN: Chuck? 2 MR. POWERS: Sorry. At a nuclear plant or a 3 nuclear facility, you have what you call the coded 4 zone, where you have radioactive fluid that is being 5 used. And that is a protected -- that is what they 6 call code/safety-related. Outside of that area, you 7 could have products that are not dealing directly with 8 the radioactive fluid, but it is within the nuclear 9 site. And what that means is the materials, the 10 conditions of service and all may not be the same, but 11 you still have seismic specification requirements. 12 You still have pressure issues. You still have 13 material issues. You still have NDE, et cetera. It's 14 not directly related to the product dealing with the 15 radioactive fluid. 16 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. 17 MS. WALTNER: Okay. Thank you. 18 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Thank you, Meg. Glad 19 you could join us. 20 Louis? 21 MR. STARR: Louis Starr with NEEA. It 22 sounds like DOE or whoever may need to sort of define

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Commerical and Industrial Pumps Working Group Meeting 03-04-2014

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 51 1 what those definitions of that non-code or code/safety 2 are so that it has context -- 3 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. 4 MR. STARR: -- because I'm sure that 5 probably people don't -work in (inaudible) means 6 something else to them. 7 MR. BROOKMAN: So, then, pending that DOE 8 review, are we okay with what is written up here on 9 the screen? I am about to move on. 10 Chuck? 11 MR. POWERS: The only question I have -- 12 and, again, I'm not trying to sway either way -- is 13 that if we're going to move tomorrow, let's try to get 14 some of this wrapped up so that we're not still 15 dealing with this six months from now. 16 MR. BROOKMAN: Yes. That's what I'm trying 17 to do; right. 18 MR. POWERS: I mean, whatever you decide, 19 let's try to get what your comments are back on the 20 table so we can get this over with; right? 21 MR. ADIN: Well, I think the hope -- I mean, 22 I can speak for myself. I don't know about everybody

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Commerical and Industrial Pumps Working Group Meeting 03-04-2014

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 52 1 else here. The hope is that we could vote by the end 2 of the meeting tomorrow on finalizing all of this 3 stuff -- it's exclusions -- so that we are clear on 4 what the scope will be for the remainder of -- 5 MR. POWERS: Sure, sure. 6 MR. BROOKMAN: Chuck, what you guys are 7 going to do, let's get that -- 8 MR. ADIN: Well, so what I'm talking about 9 is how we would word this. Like we can vote on 10 exclusion in principle. And we may still have to come 11 up with a definition that will go in the regulation, 12 but, I mean, we can vote on the types of pumps 13 categorically that we're going to leave out and deal 14 with the actual wording of the reg later, so unless 15 people are not comfortable voting unless they know 16 exactly what it will say, but, I mean, there might be 17 things that come up as we do regulatory review that I 18 can't perceive at the moment. Sorry. 19 MR. BROOKMAN: Charlie? 20 MR. CAPPELLINO: Charlie Cappellino, ITT. I 21 would just suggest that after the word "ASME," we put 22 in "boiler pressure vessel code" because that really

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Commerical and Industrial Pumps Working Group Meeting 03-04-2014

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 53 1 is the specification we're talking about. 2 MR. ADIN: I've been looking at the Code of 3 Federal Regulations for NRC. And that's exactly the 4 language they use. 5 MR. POWERS: I'm sorry. I didn't go that 6 far. I was just trying to get -- 7 MR. BROOKMAN: Yes. 8 MR. ADIN: Yes, I know. Just to confirm for 9 everyone. That's all. The ASME -- 10 MR. POWERS: I'm so far in the woods that if 11 I don't step back and look at it like other people 12 look at it -- 13 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. So, Charlie, thank 14 you. And then following on from there was Chuck 15 again. 16 Okay. So I think, based on what Lucas said, 17 we're good with this definition. And in some 18 regulatory review or whatever, we can still approve it 19 as written here when we get to that point. Now we're 20 moving on to marine pumps. 21 MR. POWERS: Okay. I'm going to be honest 22 and say that I struggled with this one. When I talked

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Commerical and Industrial Pumps Working Group Meeting 03-04-2014

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 54 1 to a lot of different people, most marine pumps just 2 use HI standards. The difference is everyone you 3 speak to will have some type of a spec that they have 4 written themselves that make it, you know, stringent 5 for various reasons. 6 For example, if it's barge, if it's a vessel 7 that's small enough, the type of lubrication can be 8 effective. If the pump -- I'm using simple terms -- 9 is tilting, if it's an all- bath lubrication, is it 10 still going to get to lubrication in the position it's 11 sitting in or grease-packed; right? There are also 12 other requirements for the foundations to be used. 13 The type of base plates -- in other words, if you have 14 a fixed member sitting on concrete in a building like 15 this, drainage, lube systems, piping, it's all, you 16 know, gravity-fed and will naturally go to least 17 resistance, et cetera. When you have a marine unit, 18 it is going to have different variables that will 19 impact it. 20 The problem was I couldn't really get down 21 to a specific compliant with X like somebody wrote a 22 marine spec that said this or that. Now, I will say

### Capital Reporting Company

Commerical and Industrial Pumps Working Group Meeting 03-04-2014

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 55 1 some marine specs will say, "compliant with Navy MIL 2 spec" whatever. They will go that far. Some will 3 say, "NDE requirements," non- destructive examination. 4 You know, they add a lot of different things in. 5 So I really can't say to the group that 6 there is a definitive marine pump spec that we could 7 refer to. It's all over the place. So, you know, I'm 8 open up to Greg, who has dealt with it a lot; and 9 Charlie; and any of the others. 10 I tried to get into the marine side of it. 11 And, you know, I'm being honest, Lucas. I couldn't 12 get back to you and say, "Here is a definitive thing" 13 because it's all over. I see some that are very 14 stringent, and I see some that are much less. 15 MR. ADIN: Okay. 16 MR. POWERS: But still it's a marine. So 17 there are paintings, whatever. 18 MR. BROOKMAN: Let me note that Greg Towsley 19 has joined us. Welcome. 20 MR. TOWSLEY: Thank you. 21 MR. BROOKMAN: Glad you have made it. A lot 22 of folks kind of struggled with getting here today.

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Commerical and Industrial Pumps Working Group Meeting 03-04-2014

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 56 1 Greg, can you follow on? Is there any 2 additional thing you can say about marine pumps? 3 MR. CASE: A follow-on to Chuck's comment, 4 in my merchant marine experience and also barges and 5 ferries and things like that, I haven't seen any great 6 definition or something that would separate them from 7 pumps that I would see in our Lot 11 group. Materials 8 may be slightly different, but a lot of these places 9 are going to your local supply houses to get 10 equipment. They're not going to -- it's not any 11 special spec where they have to get this stuff made. 12 So I don't believe that there's anything 13 that we can say, "Hey, this is" -- that we can 14 classify that as a marine pump versus a non-marine 15 pump. 16 MR. BROOKMAN: Go ahead, Al. Al Huber? 17 MR. HUBER: Well, I will just suggest that 18 we remove the marine from the list of exclusions since 19 we can't define it. If we could define it, then we 20 would. 21 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. 22 MR. HUBER: But I think we'll probably have

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 57 1 to drop it. 2 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Al says let's drop the 3 list of items that potentially might be excluded since 4 we haven't voted on them yet. Additional comments? I 5 saw some of the energy efficiency advocacy folks 6 nodding in approval of that. Okay. 7 So, then, those are the four items. Do we 8 need any additional discussion? Do you want to act on 9 this? We should wait until everybody shows up. We 10 should wait until we have a full complement before we 11 take any action. Okay. Okay. Good. Well, then, 12 Chuck, thanks for taking the initiative on that and 13 writing up the memo. That was a lot of good work went 14 into that. 15 MS. WILLIAMS: HI was going to do some more 16 work on some of these definitions. 17 MR. BROOKMAN: On definitions, as I recall. 18 MS. WILLIAMS: Hop in or no? No. Okay. 19 MR. CASE: I thought we had defined sanitary 20 pumps. Sorry. This is Greg Case with HI. I thought 21 we had defined sanitary pumps. I did get a couple of 22 numbers or our designators for other types of pumps,

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 58 1 but -- 2 MS. WILLIAMS: Okay. But -- 3 MR. BROOKMAN: So this is Alison Williams 4 speaking. 5 MS. WILLIAMS: Sorry. So right now you 6 don't have anything to add to this? 7 MR. CASE: No, no. 8 MS. WILLIAMS: Okay. Do you want us to work 9 on those or do you plan to -- 10 MR. CASE: I can take a note. And maybe I 11 can have those done by tomorrow. 12 MR. BROOKMAN: Greg, did I hear you 13 correctly? Did you say that you provided some 14 information on sanitary pumps? 15 MR. CASE: No. I thought we had covered 16 those in the food-grade specification. Maybe I can 17 try and -- 18 MS. WILLIAMS: Right. I just wrote down 19 that HI will look into the differences on those. 20 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. I lost track. Sanitary 21 pumps, that's the food-grade stuff? 22 MS. WILLIAMS: Yes.

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Commerical and Industrial Pumps Working Group Meeting 03-04-2014

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 59 1 MR. BROOKMAN: I gotcha. Okay. I remember 2 that discussion now. 3 MS. WILLIAMS: Thank you. 4 MR. BROOKMAN: And then still to be refined: 5 pumps outside certain parameters of power flow had 6 temperature speed and ball diameter. Do we have a 7 short list of what those are? Alison? 8 MS. WILLIAMS: Yes. I mean, so that's the 9 parameters, which we had talked about last time. But 10 it was also my understanding that HI was reviewing 11 these. So I don't know if anything has been done on 12 this since the last meeting or not. No? Okay. 13 MR. HUBER: The only one -- Al Huber, 14 Patterson. 15 MR. BROOKMAN: Thank you. 16 MR. HUBER: The only thing that I saw there 17 we haven't already okayed or voted on, there are only 18 two. One of them is pumps designated to clean water. 19 And we never got the definition of clean water, then. 20 MS. WILLIAMS: So yes. I want to cover 21 clean water separately. 22 MR. HUBER: Okay.

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 60 1 MS. WILLIAMS: So yes. Let's hold onto that 2 one. 3 MR. HUBER: So you've got two and four. You 4 changed. You left it at two and four; right? 5 MS. WILLIAMS: Yes. 6 MR. HUBER: No, we don't have a problem with 7 that, I don't think. 8 MS. WILLIAMS: Okay. 9 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Alison? 10 MR. HANDZEL: What were you expecting, 11 Alison? 12 MS. WILLIAMS: I don't know what I was 13 expecting. I just know that you guys had said that 14 you were going to go back and review all of these 15 because there was some discussion about like in the -- 16 this is just a write-up of the EU, that there were 17 different parameters for the different pump types. 18 And some people were confused. And my recollection is 19 just that HI said, "We'll go back and take a look at 20 this and see what we think." 21 MR. BROOKMAN: I recall Joanna requesting 22 that maybe there were some more specific definitions

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 61 1 needed for the items that had already been excluded. 2 MS. WILLIAMS: I mean, that's separate, yes. 3 MR. HUBER: We're satisfied with the 4 description that you had, Alison, these descriptions 5 of the one to two hundred horsepower, shaft power at 6 BEP, 25 gpm, 459 head, and then the temperature range. 7 We're satisfied with those. So we have nothing to add. 8 MS. WILLIAMS: Three people. 9 MR. LIN: Paul Lin with Regal. Just a 10 question. On shaft power at BEP, maybe as for when 11 it's time, do we want to keep that verbiage there? I 12 don't think the EU has that verbiage. They just have 13 shaft power. 14 MR. HUBER: They have shaft power one to two 15 hundred. 16 MS. WILLIAMS: Maximum shaft power. 17 MR. HUBER: They have it at kW. 18 MR. LIN: So I think that BEP may cause a 19 little bit of confusion relative to the water pump as 20 well as maybe coming from a manufacturer standpoint in 21 supporting the pump manufacturers. So when we get 22 asked, "one to two hundred," what does that mean?

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Commerical and Industrial Pumps Working Group Meeting 03-04-2014

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 62 1 MS. WILLIAMS: This is all of a sudden. So, 2 I mean, we talked about this last week. And our just 3 sort of comment is that BEP is an identifiable point 4 on every pump; whereas, maximum shaft power is sort of 5 dependent on where you draw your curve. And so from a 6 regulatory standpoint, it may be easier to go with 7 BEP, but if that is going to be a problem, then yes, 8 we should discuss. 9 MR. BROOKMAN: Having just looked very 10 carefully at the transcript of the last meeting, 11 that's where we left it last time with BEP. It was a 12 considerable discussion. 13 Yes, Charlie? 14 MR. CAPPELLINO: Charlie Cappellino. I'm 15 still not clear on where it says, "applies to all 16 stages." That's to be a little bit ambiguous. 17 MS. WILLIAMS: Yes. So someone had asked 18 last time if the power limit applied to I think a 19 single-stage, a multistage pump or to whatever stage, 20 whatever number of stages you were dealing with in a 21 model. 22 MR. HUBER: Al Huber, Patterson. Our

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Commerical and Industrial Pumps Working Group Meeting 03-04-2014

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 63 1 interpretation is that it is the pump, regardless of 2 how many stages it has. 3 MS. WILLIAMS: Okay. 4 MR. HUBER: The other way that you could put 5 one to two hundred horsepower, rather than the BEP, 6 you could just say they would have to be non7 overloading of 200 horsepower. 8 MR. HANDZEL: But that would change the way 9 you mean it, then. 10 MR. HUBER: Yes. That would change the way 11

-- 12 MR. HANDZEL: I wouldn't do it at this 13 point. 14 MR. HUBER: Let's just leave it at BEP. 15 MS. WILLIAMS: Okay. So, instead of 16 "applies to all stages," it should just be more like 17 "applies to the pump, regardless of stages"? 18 MR. HUBER: Yes. 19 MR. CASE: Can I ask a question? 20 MR. HANDZEL: That's not good. 21 MR. HUBER: That's not? 22 MR. CASE: No. We should specify, you know,

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Commerical and Industrial Pumps Working Group Meeting 03-04-2014

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 64 1 if it's a single-stage pump, a nine-stage pump or a 2 three-stage pump, based on the other -- I mean, 3 because we have single, nine, and three stages. 4 MR. HANDZEL: That we're collecting data on. 5 MR. CASE: That we're collecting data on. 6 MR. HUBER: Data on, yes. 7 MR. CASE: And that were specified in the EU 8 standard. So if it's a multistage submersible, it's 9 nine stages. If it's a vertical turbine, it's three 10 stages. If it's a single- stage pump, it's that 11 single stage. 12 MR. HUBER: So it's that horsepower at BEP 13 for that number of stages. 14 MR. CASE: For that number of stages. 15 MR. HUBER: Okay. 16 MS. WILLIAMS: The number of stages required 17 for testing -- 18 MR. CASE: Yes. 19 MS. WILLIAMS: -- to meet this. 20 MR. HUBER: To meet the -- 21 MR. BROOKMAN: I'm going to continue trying 22 to get everybody to say their names.

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 65 1 MR. CASE: Sorry. 2 MR. BROOKMAN: That was Greg with Al a 3 little bit contributing. And that was Alison 4 finishing up. 5 Now, how are you doing? Did you get all of 6 that you were describing? 7 MS. WILLIAMS: Yes. 8 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. One or two hundred 9 horsepower, shaft power at BEP, applies to the number 10 of stages required for testing for the standard. 11 Okay. Yes? Several heads are nodding in 12 agreement. Okay. So then going back to the previous 13 colorful chart, slide 3 in the handout, that final 14 item, "Pump Type," that's all of these items in the 15 exclusion or the parameters list? "Pumps outside 16 certain" -- 17 MS. WILLIAMS: Yes. 18 MR. BROOKMAN: -- "parameters of power, 19 flow, head," that's -- 20 MS. WILLIAMS: That's what we just looked 21 at. 22 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Okay. So, then, does

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 66 1 it stay there or should it be -- 2 MS. WILLIAMS: Well, I think it -- I mean, 3 it's a no; right? It's a matter of voting or making 4 sure it's final and voting on it. 5 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Okay. I just wondered 6 about the placement. 7 MS. WILLIAMS: Oh. Yes, those are 8 exclusions. 9 MR. BROOKMAN: Yes. Okay. Additional 10 comments here? Chuck? 11 MR. POWERS: If you can go back to the color 12 chart for a second? 13 MS. WILLIAMS: Yes. 14 MR. POWERS: So, Alison, for example, will 15 you go in where it says, "Fire pumps certified NFPA 16 20" and just correct that under the definition that we 17 had or whatever and any of the other ones? The Navy 18 you could put in there now. 19 And a suggestion -- Chuck again. 20 MR. HUBER: Separate them. 21 MR. POWERS: You might want to separate 22 Navy, nuclear. Yes, you might want to keep those

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Commerical and Industrial Pumps Working Group Meeting 03-04-2014

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 67 1 separate lines. 2 MS. WILLIAMS: Yes. 3 MR. POWERS: Because you have a definition 4 now for each of those; right? 5 MS. WILLIAMS: Right. So, I mean, what I'm 6 hoping is we can vote on them here because I'm running 7 out of -- I think we're going to break out of this 8 slide at some point -- 9 MR. POWERS: Yes. 10 MS. WILLIAMS: -- or we can just run it off 11 the -- 12 MR. HANDZEL: Do you want us to put the noes 13 on a separate page? 14 MS. WILLIAMS: Yes. 15 MR. POWERS: I'll just suggest something 16 here. Maybe for this color chart you have "Scope," 17 which is good." You have pump type, which is good. 18 You have ANSI/HI nomenclature. Should we just add a 19 column on a spec or not? That way you don't have to 20 write it within that. You can refer to a -- or no, I 21 guess not. You know what I mean? Should we have a 22 column for the definitions?

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 68 1 MS. WILLIAMS: Sure. 2 MR. POWERS: We don't have to. I'm just 3 saying maybe that's something later you'd want to do. 4 MS. WILLIAMS: Yes. So, I mean, I think 5 what our goal was was to work through all of these and 6 then eventually make sure everything is either a "Yes" 7 or "No" on this chart. And then we can have one "Yes" 8 chart and one "No" chart. So, you know, I can do it 9 later or -- 10 MR. BROOKMAN: I like this level of 11 description. It's quite clear. And we can add to it 12 later. Okay. 13 So did we do all of the parameters? I guess 14 we just went through all of them. 15 MS. WILLIAMS: Yes. So we haven't gone 16 through -- I want to have a separate discussion about 17 clean water, but I guess there is no more discussion 18 on any of the other parameters. 19 MR. BROOKMAN: Lucas? 20 MR. ADIN: So maybe just a quick point to 21 try and clarify our thinking on how we're going to 22 approach this. I mean, I am open to ideas, obviously,

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Commerical and Industrial Pumps Working Group Meeting 03-04-2014

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 69 1 from the rest of the group. But we keep going back 2 and forth between things we are excluding and what 3 we're including, which makes this a little bit 4 confusing, for obvious reasons. But for different 5 types of products, we approach it different ways. And 6 it depends on how easily you can define, you can 7 distinguish what is excluded from what is included. 8 And since we have things we clearly can 9 agree that we should exclude, I think the way that 10 we're approaching this and DOE, anyway, feels 11 comfortable with this is excluding specific things. 12 And then so, starting from there, everything else, by 13 default, is included. And then we can define a more 14 specific scope within those included things. Then you 15 just assume anything within those parameters is 16 included. 17 And so we'll deal with exclusions. Then 18 we'll narrow the scope of what is included. And then 19 does that make sense? 20 MR. HUBER: No. 21 MR. BROOKMAN: Chuck? 22 MR. POWERS: Sorry. There are three things;

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 70 1 right? 2 MR. ADIN: Right. 3 MR. POWERS: I agree with what you're 4 saying. 5 MR. ADIN: Yes. 6 MR. POWERS: One is the technical parameters 7 let's call it -- 8 MR. ADIN: Right. 9 MR. POWERS: -- not just parameters; right, 10 the flow, the head, the pressure, -- 11 MR. ADIN: Right. 12 MR. POWERS: -- I mean, the horsepower. The 13 next one is the product parameters. 14 MR. ADIN: Yes. 15 MR. POWERS: The application parameters is 16 probably a better way to say it, like fire pumps 17 versus this, versus that. And those parameters are 18 included in our exclusion list. And then the last one 19 is the Lot 11 if you want to call it parameters. 20 MR. ADIN: Right. 21 MR. POWERS: Right? There are three; right? 22 MR. ADIN: Yes.

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Commerical and Industrial Pumps Working Group Meeting 03-04-2014

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 71 1 MR. POWERS: And they're independent in each 2 own way; right? 3 MR. ADIN: Well, they can be. Like certain 4 Lot 11 pumps could be the same, you know, type as a 5 fire pump. So we're excluding those. And then we're 6 going to say, "All right. Well, in this whole other 7 universe of pumps that we haven't specifically 8 excluded, we are covering these specific types." And 9 then if it's one of those types and it's not otherwise 10 excluded, then it's in. 11 MR. POWERS: Almost like a decision tree. 12 MR. ADIN: Yes. 13 MR. BROOKMAN: And the parameters -- go 14 ahead, Al. Go ahead. 15 MR. HUBER: We have exclusions. And, 16 really, I don't know how these parameters got down 17 into the exclusion list. It's really not an 18 exclusion. It is what you are actually going to 19 regulate. 20 MR. BROOKMAN: Yes. That's why I was -- 21 MR. HUBER: So I think that's the confusion. 22 Right, Lucas? I mean, I think that is confusing. It

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 72 1 really doesn't belong in this list of exclusions. It 2 is what we're going to regulate; right? We're going 3 to regulate pumps, one to two hundred horsepower 4 pumps. 5 MR. ADIN: Right. 6 MR. HUBER: So that's what I'm saying. It 7 really doesn't belong on this list. It should be 8 belonging in the scope -- 9 MR. ADIN: Right. 10 MR. HUBER: -- at the beginning of the 11 scope. And then you get down to the products. Is 12 that what you're saying? 13 MR. ADIN: Kind of, yes. Without having a 14 diagram, it's a little hard to conceptualize, but, I 15 mean, you could almost make like a Venn diagram of 16 this stuff; right? You have a big box. And you have a 17 little box of stuff you're taking out. But within the 18 big box, you're still being more specific. 19 MR. HUBER: Right. 20 MR. ADIN: And we're going to write those 21 parameters into the scope. 22 MR. HUBER: Right.

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Commerical and Industrial Pumps Working Group Meeting 03-04-2014

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 73 1 MR. ADIN: Yes. 2 MR. HUBER: So these parameters are really 3 in the scope, not in this -- 4 MS. WILLIAMS: Yes. I think that's -- 5 MR. ADIN: Yes. 6 MS. WILLIAMS: -- outside parameters. It's 7 just a wording. 8 MR. ADIN: Yes. 9 MR. HUBER: Right. So if it's outside these 10 parameters, then excluded. 11 MS. WILLIAMS: Then it's excluded, yes. 12 MR. HUBER: That's fine. 13 MR. ADIN: Yes. 14 MR. HUBER: We have no problem with that. 15 MR. BROOKMAN: So Mark? 16 MR. HANDZEL: Mark Handzel. I just want to 17 say, I mean, Lucas, do we need to define these because 18 they could turn into areas of potential rulemaking 19 further down the road? I mean, if we're spending a 20 lot of time on it, like you all said, -- 21 MR. ADIN: Yes. 22 MR. HANDZEL: -- they're not going to be

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Commerical and Industrial Pumps Working Group Meeting 03-04-2014

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 74 1 listed as covered under the rules because they're 2 excluded. 3 MR. ADIN: So the way that we would do this 4 is we would write a definition for what constitutes 5 the covered type of pump that we are looking at. And 6 the different configurations in Lot 11, conceivably we 7 would have different product classes for each pump 8 that requires a separate standard. But there would 9 still be a pump definition for the covered types of 10 pumps. 11 MR. HANDZEL: Right. 12 MR. ADIN: So it would say, you know, "Pump 13 is" whatever "except these types." And then we have - 14 - you know, we would have to have a separate 15 definition for specific types, types listed "except 16 for nuclear pumps," "except for marine pumps," "except 17 for fire pumps." And so that's -- 18 MR. HUBER: I think we're in agreement. 19 MR. ADIN: Okay. 20 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Okay? That was Lucas 21 speaking last. And I think what you have described is 22 essentially up here in this decision tree; correct?

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Commerical and Industrial Pumps Working Group Meeting 03-04-2014

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 75 1 MR. ADIN: Yes, it is. That essentially 2 lays out what we have just talked about. 3 MR. BROOKMAN: Yes. Okay. 4 MR. ADIN: It would have been better to have 5 that up there when I started that line of dialogue. 6 MR. POWERS: So, Lucas, is that -- this is 7 Chuck. I was trying to get to so the second box you 8 would define maybe like Lot 11? And the third box 9 there would be the technical parameters like you 10 defined; right? 11 MS. WILLIAMS: Yes. 12 MR. POWERS: I'm trying to refer to these 13 page numbers here; right? I want to keep them 14 straight. 15 MR. BROOKMAN: So now will you return to 16 slide number 5, the parameter slide? I think we have 17 discussed these rather fully. The edits, the 18 clarifications in red came from the last meeting we 19 had. And we're not going to vote on this now, but I 20 am considering this to be pretty much done and closed, 21 discussed. 22 Lucas?

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Commerical and Industrial Pumps Working Group Meeting 03-04-2014

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 76 1 MR. ADIN: Yes. Just one quick point. And 2 this is Betsy mentioned something actually pretty 3 important about this. I just want to make sure this 4 is clear for the group, but we still have to come up 5 with a definition for the term "pump" broadly, which 6 we had talked about last time. 7 MR. BROOKMAN: Right. 8 MR. ADIN: So yes, the scope part of it is 9 more specific within that broader definition of pump. 10 So the term "pump" would still apply to all pumps. 11 MR. HUBER: Right. 12 MR. ADIN: We would just be setting 13 standards for the ones that we identify in the scope. 14 MR. BROOKMAN: That's a useful 15 clarification. 16 MR. ADIN: Right. 17 MR. BROOKMAN: And also, as Alison noted a 18 little bit ago, we also need to define clean water. 19 MR. ADIN: Well, -- 20 MS. WILLIAMS: I mean, I think what Lucas 21 was just getting at and what we are trying to do with 22 this tree -- actually, I think I have a slide on this

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Commerical and Industrial Pumps Working Group Meeting 03-04-2014

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 77 1 -- is that we think that, actually, we don't need to 2 define clean water. 3 MR. BROOKMAN: Oh, good. Good. 4 MS. WILLIAMS: So we're going to define. So 5 like here, just like Lucas said, if it meets one of 6 the excluded products, solids handling, whatever, it's 7 not covered, then you check to see if it's end section 8 close coupled, or one of the other pumps that the 9 group decides to cover. Then you check the 10 parameters. And that's it. 11 12 And so if you go through that three-step 13 process, we're not sure that we actually need to ever 14 define what clean water is because it's just going to 15 be determined by, you know, exclusions, covered pump 16 types, and parameters. 17 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. 18 MS. KOHL: And when we say, "covered" -- 19 this is Betsy Kohl again. 20 MS. WILLIAMS: Oh, sorry. 21 MS. KOHL: -- we mean subject to standard; 22 right? Covered is pump. That's the statutory,

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Commerical and Industrial Pumps Working Group Meeting 03-04-2014

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 78 1 covered, pump. Yes. 2 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. So that I guess we'll 3 see how that plays out in practice; right? 4 MS. WILLIAMS: Do you guys have questions 5 about -- 6 MR. HUBER: Yes. Al Huber, Patterson. Clean 7 water is what defines the engineering of the pump. So 8 we have engineered the pump differently for clean 9 water than we would for solids handling or slurries or 10

-- 11 MR. HANDZEL: Petroleum products. 12 MR. HUBER: -- petroleum products or 13 anything else. So we would feel more comfortable if 14 we had the definition of clean water. I know that you 15 have a definition. We think it is a reasonable 16 definition. I can't see it being a problem in the 17 regulation. It might be, but I can't see it. 18 MR. ADIN: I think the only issue that we 19 have with doing it that way is if you define clean 20 water, then you have these exclusions. Is there 21 something else out there that, by default, is excluded 22 because you used the clean water definition that you

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Commerical and Industrial Pumps Working Group Meeting 03-04-2014

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 79 1 didn't necessarily mean to exclude? 2 MR. HUBER: I don't think so. I mean, I 3 don't think you would. But if you did, there would 4 probably be a legitimate reason that you would. 5 MS. WILLIAMS: So this goes back to the 6

-- 7 MR. BROOKMAN: Pardon me. Pardon me. So 8 back to Al and then Lucas. Now back to Alison. 9 MS. WILLIAMS: Yes. I mean, this goes back 10 to the issue I think we discussed last week, that from 11 a compliance and verification perspective, DOE 12 wouldn't really be able to use the clean water 13 definition because non-pump manufacturers can't 14 necessarily look at a pump and know that it is 15 designed for clean water. So it is something that 16 maybe is helpful for the pump manufacturers, but from 17 DOE's perspective, likely what would happen is they 18 would have to say, "Well, we have defined solids 19 handling. We know it is not that. We have defined 20 API 610. And we know it is not that." You know? And 21 so from a compliance and verification perspective, 22 that definition wouldn't really be used. So, I mean,

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Commerical and Industrial Pumps Working Group Meeting 03-04-2014

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 80 1 I don't know if that has -- 2 MR. BROOKMAN: Mark? 3 MR. HANDZEL: This is Mark Handzel from 4 Xylem. So what you're saying, instead of defining 5 clean water, we're going to define non-clean water is 6 what it sounded like because we consider this a design 7 parameter. 8 MR. HUBER: Yes. 9 MR. HANDZEL: Okay? 10 MS. WILLIAMS: Understood. And because it's 11 a design parameter, it's hard for someone who is not a 12 pump manufacturer to see what it is because we can't 13 say it's this type of impeller, has this clearance 14 since it has whatever. 15 MR. HUBER: Al Huber, Patterson. I don't 16 know who's going to be looking at this to try to 17 decide whether or not they're buying a clean water 18 pump or a non-clean water pump, but you're not going 19 to be able to tell if we don't define it either. So 20 your logic is that they can't look at it and tell it's 21 clean water. Well, if you follow your same logic, 22 they can't tell it's a solids-handling pump either.

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Commerical and Industrial Pumps Working Group Meeting 03-04-2014

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 81 1 MS. WILLIAMS: Right. Because the pump 2 manufacturers said it was difficult to define a pump 3 designed for clean water but, instead, we could define 4 the exclusion. My understanding was from the 5 manufacturers' perspective, it was easier to define 6 what is excluded than to define actually how a pump is 7 designed for clean water. And so that's the path that 8 has been gone down. 9 MR. BROOKMAN: Greg Case? 10 MR. CASE: Greg Case, HI. Could we have ten 11 minutes maybe to try to talk this out -- 12 MR. BROOKMAN: Sure. 13 MR. CASE: -- in a group to see if we can 14 figure -- 15 MR. BROOKMAN: You know what? Let's take a 16 break. Before we go, Louis? And then we'll take a 17 break. Just a moment, Al. Louis? 18 MR. STARR: Louis Starr, NEEA. One thought 19 is I know that they do a crosswalk at DOE. It's a 20 connection between a regulatory and the industry 21 standards. So perhaps a crosswalk could be created 22 that interfaces between HI's and that follows the

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Commerical and Industrial Pumps Working Group Meeting 03-04-2014

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 82 1 definition of clean water over to what's a regulatory 2 requirement that DOE or how to define pumps. There 3 might be a way like that. So essentially putting in 4 an appendix that people understand on the industry 5 side would be the intent of what is trying to be 6 accomplished, but the actual regulatory requirements 7 would still be what DOE's got that's real accurate. 8 MR. BROOKMAN: Let's give the members a 9 chance to consult. It's now 10:30. We'll resume at 10 10:45 here in the room. Please make sure to wear this 11 badge. There are restrooms on both ends of the hall. 12 Okay? We've made progress already this morning. 13 We'll see you back here at 10:45. 14 (Off the record.) 15 (On the record.) 16 MR. BROOKMAN: Let's resume, please. Let me 17 welcome Gary Fernstrom. 18 MR. FERNSTROM: Thank you. 19 MR. BROOKMAN: Glad you made it. 20 MR. FERNSTROM: It's nice to be here. 21 MR. BROOKMAN: Nice to have you here. We 22 have a surprisingly full complement of members given

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Commerical and Industrial Pumps Working Group Meeting 03-04-2014

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 83 1 the weather that we have had here in the Washington, 2 D.C. area. And, Gary, so you know, both Meg Waltner 3 and Tom Eckman are joining us via the phone. 4 MR. FERNSTROM: Great. Okay. 5 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. This morning so far we 6 have done a few things very productively. Chuck 7 Powers' memo describing fire pumps, Navy pumps, 8 nuclear pumps, and marine pumps, we have gone through 9 that memo. And I think the group has confirmed 10 slightly different definitions for fire pumps, Navy 11 pumps, and nuclear pumps. And this group has decided 12 not to include marine pumps on the exclusions list. 13 And then we have just been going through 14 both the exclusions list and the parameters list. And 15 I think we're pretty darned close to having that 16 resolved as well. 17 Where we left off before the break -- and 18 the manufacturers wanted to caucus -- was whether we 19 needed a definition of clean water or whether we could 20 do without it given that the DOE has suggested that a 21 decision tree, which may obviate the need for a clean 22 water definition. So perhaps would the manufacturer

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Commerical and Industrial Pumps Working Group Meeting 03-04-2014

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 84 1 caucus like to report back? Greg Case? 2 MR. CASE: I would. Greg Case, HI. We 3 believe that the clean water definition is fundamental 4 to this. It was in your original request for 5 information on this. All of the data that has been 6 provided to you has been based on that, that clean 7 water definition. So I believe we do need to have it 8 in one of the basic parameters that says this is what 9 this is going to cover, what this rulemaking is going 10 to cover. 11 MR. BROOKMAN: Alison, can you say again 12 why? Can you explain? Lucas, go ahead. 13 MR. ADIN: I can explain it. 14 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. 15 MR. ADIN: I mean, I think from the general 16 -- I mean, Alison kind of already covered it from the 17 standpoint of determining which products are actually 18 subject to the standard or not. Once you get into 19 evaluating compliance and figuring out whether, you 20 know, a product has to meet the standard, how do you 21 distinguish two products that are very, very similar 22 in all their characteristics and one is clean water

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 85 1 and one is not? Maybe they're just both clean water 2 because of their design and they meet all of these 3 other parameters. 4 And maybe this is a very simple issue that 5 we're having a hard time articulating, but I think 6 that is really what we are trying to feel reassured 7 about is, is there any situation in which a pump could 8 claim to be not clean water to avoid regulation, even 9 though it's otherwise physically the same type of 10 product. 11 MR. BROOKMAN: Greg? 12 MR. CASE: Greg Case, HI. I believe that -- 13 and we talked a little bit of this. If the 14 manufacturer is going to put on his literature that 15 this is a clean water pump, he'd better have whatever 16 our rulemaking label, whatever it is, on that pump. 17 Now, if he doesn't claim that it's a water pump in his 18 literature, then maybe he doesn't have to have that. 19 MR. ADIN: Right. 20 MR. CASE: Is there a physical difference 21 where I can say, "That's a water pump" and "That's not 22 a water pump"? We're going to get way into the weeds

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 86 1 on that. 2 MR. ADIN: Yes. Some of this might be just 3 a matter of us understanding the market a little bit, 4 but, you know, at the same time, you write a 5 regulation a certain way and it's going to affect the 6 market. So we can't just look at the way it is now 7 but the way it might be shaped by what we're doing. 8 MR. CASE: Certainly. 9 MR. ADIN: So maybe a better way to 10 articulate the question is, are there products that 11 are kind of on a boundary line between strictly clean 12 water and something else, where they could say it can 13 be used for clean water or it can be used for 14 applications, including clean water, or is there 15 anything like that or is it just clean water and 16 there's other stuff? 17 MR. FERNSTROM: Well, this is Gary. I don't 18 think the problem is so much that someone would claim 19 it's not a clean water pump when it is. The problem 20 is they would claim that it's not a clean water pump 21 in order to avoid the regulation. And that's the 22 loophole that we want to try and avoid.

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 87 1 MS. WIDDER: So this is Sarah from PNNL. I 2 just -- I don't know -- am going to maybe try and say 3 this a different way. And I don't know if it's going 4 to help or not, but the issue the way that I see it is 5 not what a manufacturer claims it is or there's no 6 issue on the manufacturing side determining whether a 7 pump is clean water or not. It really comes on the 8 enforcement side. So if we add to that decision tree, 9 maybe out in on the left, "Is the pump designed for 10 clean water?" and that's the first decision point, how 11 is that enforced, similar to the definitions we had 12 for excluded products, fire pumps, solids handling 13 pumps, et cetera? That standard, how does that bear 14 on what the scope of pumps are? How do things fall in 15 or out of it? 16 And manufacturers may be able to make that 17 choice, but there also has to be sort of a check on 18 the manufacturers, not that we don't trust you guys. 19 How does someone other than a manufacturer enforce 20 that definition? So that is really what we are trying 21 to get at is, is the clean water definition 22 enforceable? Is it in product literature and we can

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Commerical and Industrial Pumps Working Group Meeting 03-04-2014

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 88 1 tie it to that? If it is in product literature, for 2 example -- 3 MR. ADIN: Product literature can change. 4 MS. WIDDER: Product literature can change. 5 MR. ADIN: The definition has to be 6 enforceable. 7 MR. BROOKMAN: Al Huber? 8 MR. ADIN: I think that's really what we're 9 getting at. 10 MR. BROOKMAN: Thank you, Lucas. Now to Al? 11 MR. HUBER: Al Huber, Patterson. If you 12 require it to be labeled in the regulation, whatever 13 you want to call it, PER I think you guys are calling 14 it, whatever it is you are calling it, -- we call it 15 MEI -- in order to be acceptable in the marketplace or 16 to be altered in the marketplace, if it's required to 17 be labeled that with that designation, then you are 18 not going to have any problem raising labels. It's 19 going to be obvious to the user and to everybody else 20 what that is for. 21 MS. WIDDER: Right. So theoretically -- 22 this is Sarah from PNNL again. So we'll just play

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 89 1 devil's advocate for a second. So all pumps that -- 2 manufacturers determine which pumps they believe are 3 covered by the regulation and publishes the PER or MEI 4 or whatever the metric is for those pumps. And it's 5 clear to a user from that perspective, but say I'm a 6 manufacturer that wants to circumvent the regulation 7 and I just don't publish the PER for my scope of 8 pumps. 9 Yes? Go ahead. 10 MR. HUBER: Well, there's no way to stop 11 someone who is intent on cheating or doing wrong. We 12 see that every day, every day, in all walks of life. 13 However, we do watch the market as manufacturers. 14 Believe me, if we find somebody doing that, then we're 15 going to report them because we have gone to the 16 expense and the trouble to comply with the law. But 17 there's always people who don't comply with the law. 18 And, regardless of how you write it, -- 19 MS. WIDDER: Right. 20 MR. HUBER: -- there is always -- somebody 21 is going to find some way to try to circumvent. 22 MS. WIDDER: I think that is completely

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 90 1 right, Al. We try our best, but we -- 2 MR. HUBER: And that is why I think if you 3 require a label to be put on that that it is for clean 4 water and here is its designated -- I mean, what is 5 going to prevent somebody if we don't put clean water 6 putting pumps out there with labels on them with an 7 MEI or a PER or whatever you want to call it this 8 fall? Nothing except unless we catch them doing it, 9 we as an industry or you as a regulator. 10 MR. ADIN: Right. 11 MR. HUBER: So that's the difference. 12 MS. WIDDER: Right. 13 MR. BROOKMAN: Lucas? 14 MR. ADIN: So labeling prospectively is 15 something that could help. I mean, it's something 16 that we have looked at for other products. Right? But 17 at the end of the day, the definition that we write 18 could still be applied, regardless of whether the 19 product has a label on it. So when it comes to 20 enforcing, whether it's for pumps or any other 21 product, we look at the definition and look at, does 22 the pump meet that definition? If it does, it's

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 91 1 covered. And that's really it. It doesn't matter 2 whether it has a label on it. 3 So I just want to make sure that we have 4 written that definition in a way that we're not 5 unintentionally excluding something we intended to 6 include and that someone couldn't get around the 7 definition itself in a way that we wouldn't want them 8 to. You know, in the most simple terms, that's the 9 best -- 10 MR. BROOKMAN: Al, follow-on? 11 MR. HUBER: Well, one of the problems that 12 we're having with this is that your framework document 13 originally said it was for clean water. I mean, you 14 made it very clear. And all of the information that 15 we have sent out to our membership and to the entire 16 industry is "We want you to report data. And here is 17 the definition of clean water." And we gave it to 18 them. And so everybody has reported, then, in that 19 manner. 20 Now to come and say, "We don't need a 21 definition of clean water" -- 22 MR. HANDZEL: It changes the scope.

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 92 1 MR. HUBER: -- it changes the scope to us. 2 All we're saying is as an industry group, if you don't 3 want to put it down as a parameter, we at least want 4 you to put in the regulation it is your intent -- 5 MR. ADIN: Right. 6 MR. HUBER: -- because it certainly was your 7 intent because that is what you said originally. 8 MR. ADIN: And our intent did not change. 9 MR. HUBER: Well, then so we would ask you 10 to say that in the -- 11 MR. ADIN: Okay. 12 MR. BROOKMAN: Let me just clarify what we 13 have been thinking, how we got to this point. We went 14 through all of this, this logic. And our 15 understanding was that if you go through all of this, 16 the exclusions, and you define these particular types 17 of pumps, really, all you should have is clean water 18 pumps because if that's not true, that means maybe 19 there are other things we need to specifically exclude 20 or -- do you see what I mean? 21 MR. HUBER: Well, yes. I see what you mean, 22 but I think there is nothing to prevent someone from

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 93 1 pumping with a pump that is not intended for clean 2 water, clean water. I mean, they could. If it will 3 pump raw sewage, it will pump clean water. 4 MR. ADIN: Right. 5 MR. HUBER: Now, nobody in their right mind 6 is going to do it because it's not going to be as 7 efficient. And there are a lot of parameters around 8 that. There's nothing to prevent them from doing that 9 except if you label it and say it's for clean water 10 and you put that, whatever that final regulation, is, 11 that MEI or whatever, that it has to meet on there and 12 enforce that, if you don't do that, then this 13 regulation won't work. You've got to have some way to 14 enforce it. We want you to enforce it, believe me. 15 MR. ADIN: Yes. 16 MR. HUBER: The manufacturers, the 17 legitimate manufacturers, in this country want it 18 enforced. 19 MR. BROOKMAN: Chuck, you are next. 20 MR. POWERS: Yes. And there are a few 21 things here just to help me to get through this 22 process. One, we used the term "Lot 11," which refers

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Commerical and Industrial Pumps Working Group Meeting 03-04-2014

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 94 1 to what the EU did. Right? We're all trying to go 2 down some paths. So maybe wrong, maybe right, we have 3 a premonition, thinking we're trying to get some kind 4 of a guideline that another group has already defined; 5 right? So we're coming over here to the U.S. now. 6 We're kind of following a similar path. 7 MR. ADIN: Yes. 8 MR. POWERS: So in our minds, we're sticking 9 to that. They clearly talk about the clean water. 10 They actually wrote a product spec so you don't get 11 into these ambiguities and issues and who, what, and 12 where; right? 13 They also have what they call a section IV, 14 which is the verification procedure. You know, do the 15 manufacturers have to test the unit? They improve it. 16 And they get a stamp, like the CE or something, so 17 when they ship the product that's on there, if you 18 don't have that, then you don't have it because I 19 think one of the things we're also trying to say is if 20 Al's company and Mark's company and Charlie's and all 21 are going down a path and so are we and we're all 22 happy about it, what prevents that guy from the other

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 95 1 side of the water from sneaking in here and taking 2 jobs away or impacting this thing negatively? 3 And you brought up this word "trust." It 4 always interested me why people always throw that 5 "trust" word in there. That shouldn't even be part of 6 the topic. We're trying to define guidelines and all 7 working together; right? 8 So I think the word "clean" water is pretty 9 simple in its own way by saying we're trying to comply 10 with a spec. And if somebody goes to the field, goes 11 down that category, you know, that they try to sneak 12 out of it, the first thing you say is, "What are you 13 pumping?" Forget about the pump for a minute. "What 14 are you pumping?" It's clean water. 15 Then you go down the other, you know, 16 because a nuclear pump pumps water. Right? But 17 because it's nuclear, it's off the list. You know 18 what I mean? So it's a process of elimination; right, 19 that we're working down here. We're not trying to get 20 into it, but we're trying to define what those items 21 are; right? 22 MR. BROOKMAN: Let me clarify. These pumps,

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 96 1 your pumps, most of them have a nameplate or some sort 2 of a stamp or some sort of a -- 3 MR. POWERS: They all have nameplates. 4 MR. HUBER: They all have nameplates of some 5 kind. 6 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Yes. 7 MR. POWERS: With a serial number, basic 8 hydraulic information, and stuff so if somebody wanted 9 a part or whatever, they can go and they can see what 10 it is and get basics. 11 MR. HUBER: This is Al Huber, Patterson. If 12 the DOE does not require a label, then we're going to 13 institute our own label as an industry, try to, 14 because we think that is the only way we are ever 15 going to be able to enforce this thing. 16 MR. BROOKMAN: Joanna? 17 MR. HUBER: That's all I'm suggesting to 18 you, Lucas. Do we seriously consider doing that? And 19 if you do that, then all these other parameters go 20 away. You don't have to worry about somebody sneaking 21 in. If they're using it for clean water and it 22 doesn't have that label on it, then you're in trouble.

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 97 1 MR. BROOKMAN: So that was Al Huber. 2 MS. WIDDER: Do you want to go? 3 MR. BROOKMAN: Go ahead, Lucas or Sarah. 4 Which one? 5 NS. WIDDER: Okay. 6 MR. BROOKMAN: Sarah? 7 MS. WIDDER: So just on that line of 8 inquiry, Al, I think we're actually sort of close to 9 each other. I don't think we're disagreeing that 10 much, but one thing that I am concerned about is so 11 say there is some manufacturer that comes from across 12 the pond or whatever and introduces pumps that are in 13 the scope, should meet the DOE regulations, should be 14 certified, but they don't want to certify them and 15 they're not and they're selling them and competing 16 with certified pumps and they don't have a label. So 17 say that you report them or someone reports them. On 18 what basis? We need like a really defensible basis. 19 Okay. Go for it. 20 MR. ADIN: Yes. This is Lucas with DOE. So, 21 to clarify that -- 22 MS. WIDDER: Yes.

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 98 1 MR. ADIN: -- coverage is not determined by 2 what to put on the label. 3 MS. WIDDER: Right. 4 MR. ADIN: It's determined by the 5 definition. 6 MR. POWERS: Right. 7 MR. ADIN: So, regardless of what they put 8 on the label, if it meets the definition, they just 9 don't put on the label that it's a clean water pump, 10 well, then they're violating the label requirement if 11 you pull them in there. 12 MR. POWERS: But that doesn't -- 13 MR. ADIN: It is really the definition that 14 is controlling all of this. 15 MR. POWERS: This is Chuck again. The guy 16 from overseas or somewhere can come in and say, "This 17 is nuclear power." Right? 18 MS. WIDDER: Right. 19 MR. POWERS: This is the power company. They 20 come with all of their stuff. But at the end of the 21 day -- 22 MR. ADIN: They have to be in the exclusion.

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 99 1 MR. POWERS: -- they have to meet, you know. 2 And somebody, either the authority writing the spec 3 for the job or the municipality that's buying it or 4 whomever, they're going to sit there and say, you 5 know, "Wait a minute," you know, or we could step up 6 and say, "Who are the qualified bidders? Wait a 7 minute. Where do they meet? Where do they meet the 8 government standard for this?" 9 MR. ADIN: Right. 10 MR. POWERS: And they would have to step up 11 and -- 12 MR. HUBER: Yes. They would have to show 13 that. I mean, we do that every day. 14 MR. POWERS: Yes. 15 MR. HUBER: We do it for fire pumps. 16 MR. POWERS: Yes. 17 MR. HUBER: We have done it for all these 18 other things that we do that have regulations or have 19 things. We call attention to the regulatory 20 authorities immediately if we find it. And we do find 21 it on occasion. That's why I'm telling you you can't 22 stop these guys from cheating.

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 100 1 MS. WIDDER: Right. 2 MR. HUBER: They're going to try. But 3 you've got to have a way to stop them. And I 4 appreciate what you're saying, that you're -- the 5 definition is what defines it. 6 MR. ADIN: Right. So -- 7 MR. BROOKMAN: This is Al. 8 MR. HUBER: It should be taken in total 9

-- 10 MR. ADIN: Right. 11 MR. HUBER: -- not separate. I mean, you 12 are taking all of these parameters in total. It's 13 clean water. It does this. It does this. And it 14 doesn't do this. And it doesn't do this. All those 15 things wrapped together, I think, keep it solid if you 16 have a labeling and regulatory scheme behind it. 17 MR. ADIN: I think we just want to have an 18 assurance that if we use clean water as a defining 19 characteristic of the pumps that we're trying to cover 20 that's not going to give people a way to get around 21 it. You know, if we can be pretty sure about that, 22 then --

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 101 1 MR. HUBER: I think if you label it -- this 2 is Al Huber again. I'm sorry, Doug. 3 MR. BROOKMAN: You're doing well. Keep 4 going. 5 MR. HUBER: I think if you label it and 6 require something on the label with the EEI or MEI or 7 PER that's got to be there -- and, you know, I mean, 8 you might could -- I don't know. There's got to be 9 some kind of lab, some kind of certification, testing 10 done, you know. So I don't know how you do that, but 11 you might want a number on it that says you'll look at 12 this number and this number says, "This pump is 13 certified." I don't know, but -- 14 MR. POWERS: This is Chuck speaking. If you 15 look at -- I mean, I'm just assuming simple examples - 16 - NSF. Okay? You know, the recent one is NSF. They 17 literally have a website. And they literally list 18 those companies comply. And when you ship an NSF 19 pump, you get a label they put on. Now, I can't 20 remember. It has to go on the nameplate or they allow 21 you to attach a separate one next to the nameplate. I 22 don't remember because, you know, nameplates are made

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 102 1 by the millions. And we don't know where we can -- 2 MR. BROOKMAN: Rob's behind you saying, 3 "Both." 4 MR. BOTELER: Motors compliance number 5

-- 6 MR. POWERS: Right. 7 MR. BOTELER: -- issued to the manufacturer 8

-- 9 MR. POWERS: Right. 10 MR. BOTELER: -- every nameplate. There is 11 my compliance number. 12 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. So thank you for that. 13 Now to Greg. And, Joanna, thanks for being patient. 14 Greg? 15 MR. CASE: Greg Case, HI. That's what I was 16 going to say, is I think where Al was going with this 17 is a certified list of pumps. And if your pump is not 18 certified on this list, much like a CE mark in Europe. 19 If you don't have a CE mark, you don't get to sell it. 20 MR. ADIN: So the only problem from our 21 standpoint is that DOE relies on self- certification 22 by manufacturers. So the manufacturers certify to DOE

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 103 1 that their product meets the standard if it's subject 2 to the standard. So, really, the question is more we 3 found this pump that is being sold that hasn't been 4 certified to DOE and, you know, by all outward 5 appearances, has the characteristics and the 6 parameters and all these things that suggest that it 7 should be subject to a standard. But then we come to 8 the manufacturer and ask, "Well, you know, why isn't 9 your pump certified?" 10 And they say, "Well, it's not a clean water 11 pump." 12 So I guess that, really, that's in the most 13 general sense I can express it. 14 MS. WIDDER: And I just want to add one more 15 thing to -- 16 MR. BROOKMAN: Sarah Widder? 17 MS. WIDDER: This is Sarah Widder. Yes. I 18 think that was a really good example. And then if the 19 manufacturer says it's not a clean water pump and DOE 20 says, "Yes, it is" -- 21 MR. HANDZEL: How do we define that? 22 MS. WIDDER: How do we define it? Who is

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 104 1 right and who is wrong? You know, we need some sort 2 of line in the sand. Otherwise, it's just their word 3 against ours or yours. 4 MR. BROOKMAN: Could you use both? Could you 5 use the decision tree and the definition or would that 6 just muddy things up? 7 MR. ADIN: Well, the definition really is -- 8 it's all of that. It's designed to incorporate all of 9 those things so that you can look at a single pump and 10 go through that whole tree and figure out whether the 11 single pump would be subject to the standard or not. 12 MS. WIDDER: I think the design is parallel 13 paths, but it's best perhaps not to have -- well, 14 theoretically you don't want to have parallel paths if 15 one of them is more guidance. 16 MR. BROOKMAN: Yes, yes. 17 MS. WILLIAMS: So we actually -- 18 MR. BROOKMAN: Alison? 19 MS. WILLIAMS: -- originally when we did 20 this decision tree thought about putting clean water 21 in the first one, like "Is this pump designed for 22 clean water?"

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 105 1 From an enforcement end, the answer to that 2 question is always "Not sure." And then you have to 3 move on to the other ones. 4 MR. POWERS: Okay. So -- 5 MS. WILLIAMS: So for you guys; right, you 6 can look at it and be like "Yep. Clean water." 7 MR. POWERS: But, to help you, somebody -- 8 this is Chuck -- who comes to the table, like you 9 said, it's a perfect example. Okay? EU -- I'm not 10 saying they did it right, but, again, they have a 11 product spec. As Greg probably would do, you hire a 12 consultant. They argue, "Oh, that's not a clean water 13 pump." Okay. The first thing I am going to do, I'm 14 going to bring in my instruments. And I'm going to go 15 test the fluid. And if the free solid content that we 16 wrote in there is greater than .25 kilograms per cubic 17 meter and dissolved solid content is this and all 18 that, if we define, that's clean water. 19 MS. WIDDER: But that's an application. 20 MR. BROOKMAN: It's still sitting on the 21 shelf. 22 MS. WILLIAMS: Right.

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 106 1 MR. POWERS: What I'm saying is you start 2 there. 3 MR. BROOKMAN: It's still sitting on the 4 shelf. 5 MS. WILLIAMS: On the shelf, you don't know 6 what it's pumping. 7 MR. HUBER: Well, that's the problem. 8 MS. WIDDER: Yes. I mean, because this is 9 as it's sold. 10 MR. BROOKMAN: Charlie, thank you. You're 11 next. 12 MR. CAPPELLINO: Well, I think Al mentioned 13 an alternative position here a few minutes ago. And, 14 actually, Louis mentioned it earlier. Maybe the best 15 approach here is to basically use it as to kind of 16 frame up what the intent is. And maybe we can just 17 leave it at that. So it helps from the point of view 18 of interpretation of what the intent here is. So it 19 can't be maybe not necessarily part of the regulation 20 because it is ambiguous, but it can frame up what the 21 design intent is that -- 22 MALE SPEAKER: I think you need to use the

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 107 1 words "design intent" -- 2 MALE SPEAKER: Right. 3 MR. BROOKMAN: I'm confused because if the 4 Department of Energy establishes a standard that says 5 this group of pumps needs to meet that standard, to be 6 sold in the U.S.A., doesn't it require some sort of a 7 certification or label, period, a priori? Isn't that 8 just a requirement for sale in the U.S.? 9 MR. HUBER: No. 10 MR. BROOKMAN: No? There isn't some sort of 11 a -- 12 MR. ADIN: Let me clarify that. If a given 13 product is subject to a DOE energy conservation 14 standard, it does have to be certified before being 15 distributed in commerce. 16 MR. BROOKMAN: By somebody. 17 MR. ADIN: Right. 18 MR. BROOKMAN: Yes. 19 MR. ADIN: But you still have to have a way 20 to distinguish in the event that a product has not 21 been certified whether, in fact, it is subject to 22 standards. So I think that is really what we're

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 108 1 dealing with. If it's -- 2 MS. WIDDER: Because somebody is the 3 manufacturer. 4 MR. BROOKMAN: Right, right. 5 MR. ADIN: Right. So if it's certified or 6 not certified doesn't by itself distinguish whether it 7 is covered because the manufacturer is 8

-- 9 MR. BROOKMAN: I thought that most 10 manufacturers or all manufacturers if it was a 11 certified product would want to have some sort of a 12 label or some sort of a designation so they could say, 13 "Look, my product is certified. This differentiates 14 me from that cheap foreign competition or whatever it 15 would be. 16 MS. WILLIAMS: Right, but the cheap foreign 17 competition maybe does not care. 18 MS. WIDDER: Still exists. 19 MS. WILLIAMS: Right? So -- 20 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. 21 MR. ADIN: That possibility exists. So 22 logically it would help to --

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 109 1 MR. HUBER: We go to do that. 2 MR. BROOKMAN: Charlie, you are next. 3 MR. CAPPELLINO: I just wanted to clarify. 4 My understanding is we can regulate and write rules 5 around a product, but you can't necessarily regulate 6 the application. Is that correct? 7 MR. HUBER: That is correct. 8 MR. CAPPELLINO: Right. So, for example, if 9 somebody were to sell a certified product and the 10 customer chose to put that into a water application or 11 a non-water application -- 12 MR. ADIN: Right. 13 MR. CAPPELLINO: -- you really don't have 14 any control over that. All you have control over is 15 what leaves the manufacturer's facility. Is that 16 correct? 17 MR. ADIN: That is right. That is right. 18 So that actually gets -- I'm sorry. I didn't mean to 19 interrupt. 20 MR. CAPPELLINO: No. Go ahead. 21 MR. ADIN: Another element of this question 22 about how to use the term "clean water" is how you

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 110 1 employ that in the definitions. So is it capable of 2 use for clean water? Is it -- 3 MR. HANDZEL: No. Could it? 4 MR. ADIN: -- designed for use for clean 5 water? 6 MR. CAPPELLINO: Yes. 7 MR. ADIN: Is it designed for only clean 8 water, like those things? You know, you have to be 9 very clear about exactly -- 10 MR. HUBER: Designed for -- 11 MR. CAPPELLINO: Yes. I think this was a 12 design -- 13 MR. BROOKMAN: So that was Lucas. I'm 14 wondering. Joanna, you have been very, very patient. 15 I don't know whether you've still got something you 16 wish to add here. I'm wondering if the energy 17 efficiency advocacy caucus has anything to contribute 18 about this, where we are with this issue. 19 MS. MAUER: This is Joanna. Maybe just a 20 question. Are there definitions for solids handling, 21 for example? And are those definitions -- does using 22 those definitions make it easier to identify what is

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 111 1 clean water versus what is solids handling compared to 2 the new definition for clean water? 3 MR. BROOKMAN: I see Gary. Go ahead, Gary. 4 MR. FERNSTROM: I think Lucas made it very, 5 very clear. It looks like the fundamental problem is 6 that clean water is an application. And there really 7 isn't any clear way to determine whether pumps sold in 8 the market are exclusively capable of pumping clean 9 water or might pump some other fluid that would not be 10 clean water. So we have a little bit of a dilemma 11 that we need to work through in order to avoid lack of 12 clarity in what we do. 13 MR. BROOKMAN: Just a practicality. The 14 reason you chose Lot 11 was because EU spent a 15 significant amount of time doing this work. It set a 16 precedent that there is test procedure, there is all 17 of this specification, all of this stuff that went 18 with it, but also clean water pumps, one to two 19 hundred horsepower and the like, that's the 20 predominant. That's the great, great majority of 21 pumps out there, period; right? So, I mean, 22 presumably -- I'm just following that logic about the

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 112 1 practicalities of it. 2 Joanna? 3 MS. MAUER: Joanna. I just wanted to 4 clarify. I think we all have the same intent in terms 5 of what pumps we want to cover. Just how do we craft 6 the definitions or exclusions to get there? Do you 7 define clean water? Do you define all of the pumps 8 that are non-clean water? So I don't think it's a 9 question of what we are trying to include or exclude 10 but just how we get there in terms of definitions. 11 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. So, then, any 12 additions to the discussion at this point? Maybe we 13 just should walk away from it for a while and see if 14 something emerges. Greg, do you want to add in here? 15 MR. CASE: Just to one of Joanna's remarks. 16 This is Greg Case from HI. I think trying to define 17 what isn't clean water gets very messy very fast. I 18 think that would be tough to do. Defining what clean 19 water we thought was pretty clean, but obviously we 20 have a -- 21 MR. HUBER: No pun intended. 22 MR. CASE: Yes. No pun intended. But we

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 113 1 obviously have an issue in defining what makes a clean 2 water pump different than a non-clean water pump or a 3 pump that could be used for other services. 4 MR. BROOKMAN: Lucas? 5 MR. ADIN: Lucas. Just I don't know if you 6 can answer this offhand, but does the scope of pumps 7 change significantly if you're talking about pumps 8 capable, like within the parameters we're considering 9 and the pump types and all of that, Lot 11, you know, 10 and all of that, pumps capable of pumping clean water 11 versus pumps designed specifically only for clean 12 water? Like are you 13

-- 14 MR. HUBER: Every pump that you see on this 15 list -- 16 MR. ADIN: Yes. 17 MR. HUBER: -- no matter what color it is -- 18 MR. ADIN: Yes. 19 MR. HUBER: -- could potentially pump clean. 20 MR. ADIN: Right. You have to be really 21 careful about -- 22 MR. HANDZEL: It's the easiest application.

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 114 1 MR. ADIN: Right. 2 MR. HUBER: Now, would you do it? No, but - 3

- 4 MR. HANDZEL: There are costs. There are 5 cost barriers. There's -- 6 MR. HUBER: There are other barriers to it. 7 MR. ADIN: And so I -- 8 MR. HUBER: And every one of them could pump 9 clean water, yes. 10 MR. POWERS: There are a few pump types. If 11 you just took it -- there's no such thing as off-the12 shelf in some of the higher gradient pumps, but if you 13 take some of -- this is Chuck speaking -- those pump 14 types and try to pump water, they will fail. 15 MR. HUBER: Yes. 16 MR. POWERS: Yes. All right? So let's make 17 that clear. I mean, let's not take it carte blanche 18 that -- 19 MR. HUBER: That's true. 20 MR. POWERS: -- pump made -- some of the API 21 chemicals, you get into others. You try taking pump 22 water. Pump water is the toughest fluid to move. I

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 115 1 don't know if you -- 2 MR. BROOKMAN: Yes. 3 MR. POWERS: It is. It literally is the 4 toughest because it's not very lubricity. It's not 5 very -- you know, it's -- 6 MR. BROOKMAN: Yes. Al made the point 7 earlier these clean water pumps are designed to move 8 clean water. The impellers are distinctive, 9 everything about it; right? 10 MR. POWERS: Clearances. 11 MR. BROOKMAN: Louis? Louis? 12 MR. STARR: So, as far as defining non13 clean, perhaps a way to do it is non-clean pump can be 14 a pump that pumps a fluid, anything other than what is 15 -- and they define clean water. So you just define it 16 as anything that is not clean water is non-clean 17 water? 18 MR. BROOKMAN: Yes. And, Greg, I lost what 19 you said earlier. Joanna's logic is maybe we can 20 define non-clean water. Did you say that is a 21 sensible thing to do or that is not? 22 MR. HANDZEL: No. It's too broad, too

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 116 1 broad. 2 MR. CASE: No. Sorry. Greg Case with HI. 3 We would spend the next six months trying to define 4 what is not clean water. 5 MR. BROOKMAN: I see. 6 MS. WILLIAMS: All right. This is Alison. 7 So my understanding; right -- I mean, this goes back 8 to the framework meeting a year ago. And the 9 understanding was that clean water is too hard to 10 define with physical characteristics. But my 11 understanding was that it was easier to define with 12 physical characteristics these things we have decided 13 to exclude, you know, solids handling, API 610, ASME 14 chemical pumps. 15 And at the last meeting, I think one of the 16 advocates asked if anything else needed to be added to 17 this list that was also not clean water. And that's 18 where, you know, the nuclear, Navy, and sanitary pumps 19 came from. 20 I mean, to me, this is the same process we 21 have been following all along. So I guess -- 22 MR. BROOKMAN: You see the logic in it. Go

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 117 1 ahead. Stand up and speak. 2 MR. THOMPSON: Steve Thompson, TACO. Do I 3 really have to stand up? 4 MR. BROOKMAN: Come up by the microphone. 5 MR. THOMPSON: So, as an observer, I have 6 been listening to this conversation with great 7 interest, the interest being if you guys do clean 8 water or not clean water and stuff like that, are 9 there any missed energy savings opportunities that are 10 going to be not part of this group if you actually 11 nailed down the clean water and gray water and sewage, 12 all that kind of stuff? 13 Now, the energy savings opportunity, you're 14 either going to be looking at relatively high 15 horsepower, low number of unit sales volumes of 16 devices that are using electricity or, conversely, 17 you're going to be using low-wattage, high-volume 18 things, like circulators, which think of them as a 19 light bulb. So I can think of one thing that if you 20 left it at clean water, that you would be missing an 21 energy-saving opportunity. 22 There are millions. Just as one example,

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 118 1 there are millions of submersible sump pumps sold in 2 the United States every year. So if you just left 3 this at clean water -- now, granted, those are mostly 4 and just about all in residential applications. 5 And I get it that they don't run all of the 6 time or very often and stuff like that. But in the 7 same respect as talking to regulating circulators, if 8 you -- anything this Committee does that takes this 9 stuff out of the scope by saying, "Well, okay. A sump 10 pump, it is not clean water. So it's not part of this 11 stuff," you guys are going to have to walk away after 12 this is all done and say, "Well, you know what? We 13 missed those." 14 Can I get off my soap box now? 15 MR. BROOKMAN: Thank you. Please take the 16 paper off the microphone. Thank you. 17 So I think we'll take final comments here, 18 but I think we should just let this lie for a little 19 bit and see if we can come up with anything over this 20 panel the next day and a half. 21 Paul Lin, go ahead. 22 MR. LIN: Just maybe a comment is why not

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 119 1 just leave in the language "intended to be installed" 2 or say "installed in a clean water application" 3 because at the end of the day; right, if it's on the 4 shelf, you can't tell what the application is, but 5 before you guys are going to say, "The act of 6 noncompliance is that when you see it installed or 7 sold to your end user," that's where you're going to 8 get flagged, where you're going to set the flag. So 9 why can't you just say, "installed in a clean water 10 application" and then, therefore, you have the 11 mechanism to go from an enforcement standpoint? 12 MR. ADIN: It's just not really the way our 13 regs work. You're regulated to a manufactured product 14 level. So you define what is covered based on the 15 characteristics and the parameters, not based on how 16 its intent is or how it will be used. You know, we 17 want to control that -- 18 MR. LIN: As it is shipped perhaps; right? 19 MR. ADIN: As manufacturers. 20 MR. LIN: As manufacturers, yes. 21 MR. BROOKMAN: Gary Fernstrom? 22 MR. FERNSTROM: I'd like to conclude and

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 120 1 follow your advice to table this with one comment. And 2 that would be I like Alison's idea that every pump is 3 a clean water pump unless it's excluded. 4 MR. BROOKMAN: Yes. 5 MR. FERNSTROM: And we should just develop 6 for ourselves a list of pumps that we don't want to 7 consider. 8 MR. BROOKMAN: Yes. You probably can't read 9 it, but that's the logic that's in that decision tree 10 that was up there and also in your packet. 11 MR. FERNSTROM: And, frankly, I don't see 12 any alternative to that. 13 MR. BROOKMAN: Except that the 14 manufacturers, their whole framework concept from the 15 beginning has been built on this definition of clean 16 water. 17 MR. FERNSTROM: I understand that, but that 18 we have discovered is an application. And these rules 19 are not usually application-sensitive. 20 MR. BROOKMAN: Lucas? 21 MR. ADIN: Well, maybe I can try and see if 22 I can bring a little more clarity to what we're trying

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 121 1 to get to the bottom of here. I mean, we have already 2 talked about it, but at least in the way that I'm 3 thinking about it, clean water in itself as far as how 4 the pump could be used is certainly an application. 5 But there are, from everything I have heard, 6 differences between pumps that are designed for that 7 purpose and pumps that are designed for other 8 purposes. I think we're just trying to get to the 9 bottom of what's the barrier between those pumps and 10 these. And it sounds like there isn't a clear way you 11 can write a single definition, what's that barrier 12 between clean water and what isn't; right? 13 MR. BROOKMAN: Al Huber? 14 MR. HUBER: Al Huber, Patterson Pumps. 15 MR. BROOKMAN: Yes. Thank you, Al. 16 MR. HUBER: The problem really is not -- one 17 thing that we're concerned about or from our side is 18 that, you know, we haven't gone and searched every 19 possible pump to make sure that we have got them all 20 covered in the exclusions. These are the ones that 21 came to our mind right away because they are fairly 22 obvious. But we don't know what we -- I mean, we

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 122 1 might do undue harm to some company and not know it. 2 And that's what we're a little bit concerned about. 3 We haven't, you know, looked at all of the 4 possibilities of what might ought to be excluded under 5 those. That is why the broader definition of clean 6 water was kind of important, so to speak. 7 MR. BROOKMAN: Gary Fernstrom? 8 MR. HUBER: We can go back and take a look. 9 MR. BROOKMAN: Yes? 10 MR. FERNSTROM: This is Gary. And, Lucas, 11 conversely, we, the energy efficiency advocates, 12 haven't looked at all of the potential lost 13 opportunities either. So, you know, that is kind of a 14 dilemma from each group's perspective. 15 MR. BROOKMAN: Chuck? 16 MR. POWERS: With all that said, I'll go 17 back to the basics. There were a bunch of very smart 18 people in a room, several rooms, several meetings, in 19 the EU that went through this. You know, I circled 20 them. This is the official list. But they defined and 21 looked at all of those aspects and the kinds of pumps; 22 right? And HI does a nice job. I'm thinking of just

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 123 1 referring to it as nice truck -- look at one thing. 2 API has theirs. Chemical guys have theirs. They 3 defined all of these pages of the products. 4 And the EU group went through and tried to 5 define what they felt was from a whole list of 6 parameters, install base, the most units, you know, 7 what makes the most sense, et cetera. And I think 8 they came down to it said, of all those ones that 9 we're interested in just happened to be clean water 10 pumps, the majority of them, I think; right? 11 And that's where they went further, wanted 12 to meet those. I had said, "Okay. Clean water pumps 13 means this, and now we have the Lot 11," which is 14 probably the second box up there the way I see it. 15 And, you know, they have the -- then they went down 16 the exclusion list. Let's not waste time on those. 17 Get them out of the way. 18 So we keep going back, but there is a lot of 19 work done on this. There is a purpose here; right? 20 MR. BROOKMAN: Yes, you described their 21 logic. And you are also saying the Europeans didn't 22 come up with, after all of this work, a better schema.

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 124 1 MR. POWERS: Right. Now, someone might 2 argue -- and it's a very fair statement that Gary 3 brought up -- we call it OH-7. They call it this. And 4 DOE has their version, which is very similar to the 5 EU. 6 MR. BROOKMAN: Right. 7 MR. POWERS: So okay. Maybe there is 8 something there that Al was bringing up that we may 9 have missed. I don't know, you know, because I don't 10 make every pump out there. And I don't think anybody 11 here does, you know. 12 MR. BROOKMAN: So I think we've covered this 13 adequately for the moment. Let's table further 14 discussion on this. We'll resurface this in this 15 panel the next day and a half. Maybe some additional 16 thoughts will come around. We'll see what happens. 17 Do you want a final comment, Gary, before we 18 move on? 19 MR. FERNSTROM: I'd like to pose a question 20 for Chuck to think about when we bring this up later. 21 And that would be this doesn't seem to be a problem in 22 the EU. How have they avoided the sort of problems

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 125 1 that we fear here? 2 MR. POWERS: Well, -- 3 MR. FERNSTROM: You don't have to answer 4 that question right now unless you want to, but -- 5 MR. POWERS: I can talk about it later. I've 6 been at both meetings. I think some of the other 7 people here have. In my perspective, if it's a Navy 8 pump, it has a product spec that somebody sits down 9 and says, "What are we going to qualify this?" 10 The EU did a nice job. And I'm sure this is 11 where Lucas is going to go. And the consultant is 12 going to help him. They're going to come up with some 13 kind of a regulation of, you know, something, just 14 like they did on motors. They're doing it on 15 everything else. 16 And when you look at the EU, they did a nice 17 job of defining it, even clarified not just the chart 18 like that. You know, what is a clean water? What 19 does that really mean? And what is a fire pump? And 20 what is a positive displacement pump, even the ones 21 that are excluded; right? They go, and it's defined a 22 little bit; right? But they also go into the

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 126 1 regulation, the testing. And they have here what's 2 called section IV, "Verification Procedure." 3 What if doing a test, you fall outside of 4 that? Well, you have a form you fill. You go back to 5 those. They call it the stakes; right, the EU union 6 and all of that. And they have to get approval, you 7 know, clarification. Here is the test we did. And 8 here's what went wrong. You know, everybody is 9 saying. And then they have it very simple, which is 10 indicative benchmarks, you know. 11 So, in other words, there is a bona fide 12 piece of paper that says, "Mr. Pump Manufacturer, if 13 you're going to do this to meet these MEI, read this 14 first because if you're not going to comply with this, 15 then " -- 16 MR. FERNSTROM: So your perspective is there 17 is enough backup word to avoid this uncertainty that 18 we sort of fear? 19 MR. POWERS: I believe so. But there is 20 another thing that Al brought up. And we all see it 21 every day. We go see a spec. And there's three pump 22 guys listed. And we see one that we know "Wait a

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 127 1 minute. I don't think they've qualified to this." We 2 raise our hand. This is before it gets to the field, 3 you know, when they're specifying a pump and whatever. 4 We deal with that every day; right? 5 And, you know, somebody is funding it. Where 6 is the money trail? And how is that being done; 7 right? 8 MR. BROOKMAN: So let's table the 9 discussion. This has been productive and not resolved 10 yet. 11 Let me welcome Steve Rosenstock, who has 12 just joined us. Glad you made it. We have had 13 several individuals who have joined us late, had 14 difficulty getting here, and all that sort of thing. 15 But we're almost fully staffed up at this point. So 16 that's the good news. Tom Eckman and Meg Waltner, 17 they're both joining us via the phone. 18 What should we do next? One thing is Alison 19 has been working on some new data -- you're not done 20 yet -- for circulators. And Gary had some data also 21 for circulators. 22 MR. FERNSTROM: I do, but I'd like to share

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 128 1 it tomorrow, if I may. I have like three or four 2 slides I'd just like to throw up showing what we found 3 with our first look at 12 circulators. 4 MR. BROOKMAN: And you would like to show it 5 tomorrow because it's not quite ready to be shown yet? 6 MR. FERNSTROM: It's because I haven't got 7 my head together, frankly. 8 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. We want you to have 9 your head together. That's useful. 10 And, Steve, this morning we went again and 11 took a look at exclusions and parameters. And in 12 discussion, I think we have largely zeroed in and 13 clarified virtually all of these items. And just 14 before you walked in the door, we had a lengthy 15 discussion on whether we needed a clean water 16 definition -- 17 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Right. 18 MR. BROOKMAN: -- or whether there was some 19 way using a combination of exclusions and parameters 20 to provide a substitute for enforcement purposes for - 21

- 22 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Page 8 of the slide set,

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 129 1 basically. Is that what you are discussing? 2 MR. BROOKMAN: If they sent over the slides, 3 the flowchart. 4 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Seven and 8? Gotcha. 5 MR. BROOKMAN: And the clean water 6 definition on 8; right. 7 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Okay. 8 MR. BROOKMAN: And so that's where we left 9 it. And that's where we're going to now table that. 10 What should we do next? Lucas? 11 MR. ADIN: Well, I'll make a suggestion. At 12 least from my standpoint, it -- I mean, we can table 13 clean water for now. Obviously we're going to have to 14 come back to it. 15 MR. BROOKMAN: Obviously. 16 MR. ADIN: If not today, then definitely 17 tomorrow because we have got to get this nailed down, 18 you know, in the next two days to get all of the scope 19 settled, you know, again, from my standpoint anyway. 20 But we still have a few other things that we're still 21 -- you know, we still have open, I think. On the 22 parameters list, it seems like there are a couple of

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 130 1 things that we're still talking about. And then there 2 were a couple of types of pumps beyond the Lot 11 that 3 we were still talking about. So that's another area 4 that we still -- 5 MR. BROOKMAN: Well, let's look at the 6 parameters on slide 5. I thought we had basically 7 resolved and dealt with every one of these now except 8 for whether pumps designed for clean water, the first 9 one, should be included, you know, whether the 10 definition would be a substitute, whether that's -- 11 anyway, I didn't know how to -- every one of these 12 other ones I thought we have basically gone through. 13 MS. WILLIAMS: So at the last meeting, we 14 put "Okays" next to the ones that everyone had pretty 15 much agreed to. And the speeds and the bowl diameters 16 did not get okayed. But earlier no one had anything 17 to say about it. 18 19 MR. BROOKMAN: When I was writing the 20 meeting summary, I read more than once all of the 21 discussion surrounding six-inch or smaller bowl 22 diameter. It seemed like by the end of that, we were

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 131 1 pretty much resolved that six-inch or smaller would 2 satisfy, that would be adequately descriptive. All 3 the discussion on three-inch, four-inch, all that 4 stuff, that's my -- I hope everyone -- maybe everyone 5 can confirm whether that is their recollection or 6 maybe they think differently today. 7 Additional thoughts on six-inch or smaller 8 bowl diameter? No additional comments on six-inch or 9 smaller bowl diameter? So that in my own mind, I'm 10 going to -- go ahead, Chuck. 11 MR. POWERS: Yes. There will be an impact 12 to us, but I have already gone back. The last time I 13 brought it up, I said -- 14 MR. BROOKMAN: Yes. 15 MR. POWERS: -- because we keep jumping back 16 between these forms and we vote, we don't vote. The 17 vote was given. I've got to stick with it. But that 18 means we may have to make a change to our 19 manufacturing site and go offshore or something like 20 that. And that's our decision. It actually helped me 21 a little bit. 22 MS. WILLIAMS: We haven't voted on this yet.

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 132 1 MR. POWERS: No, no. Actually, on the six2 inch or smaller, I brought it up last time. I think 3 we did. 4 MS. WILLIAMS: No. There have only been two 5 votes so far. And that wasn't one of them. 6 MR. BROOKMAN: I don't think we have voted 7 on it, Chuck. 8 MR. HUBER: Have we voted on -- 9 MS. WILLIAMS: No. 10 MR. HUBER: As we recall -- 11 MS. WILLIAMS: So I did so -- 12 MR. POWERS: What did we vote on? I thought 13 we -- oh, I didn't mean -- 14 MR. BROOKMAN: Well, you go ahead. 15 MS. WILLIAMS: Yes. So, I mean -- 16 MR. BROOKMAN: Alison? 17 MS. WILLIAMS: The ones that there was 18 general agreement for, but -- 19 MR. HUBER: But no votes then -- 20 MS. WILLIAMS: -- we didn't complete -- 21 MR. BROOKMAN: Correct. 22 MS. WILLIAMS: -- general agreement on the -

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 133 1

- 2 MR. BROOKMAN: Correct. 3 MS. WILLIAMS: -- speeds and the bowl 4 diameter. And, therefore, we didn't vote. 5 MR. BROOKMAN: No. Just to be clear -- and 6 you correct me if I am wrong -- having written the 7 meeting summary, read through the transcript twice, 8 like 1,400 pages worth, we had a big discussion on 9 exclusion, big discussion on parameters, but we did 10 not take an overall vote. 11 MS. WILLIAMS: We voted on some of the 12 exclusions and then documented the vote, but we did 13 not vote on any of the parameters. 14 MR. ADIN: Yes. For everyone's benefit, the 15 last two slides contain the items that were voted on 16 already. So that is the extent of the items to which 17 we actually have a -- 18 MR. BROOKMAN: Yes, Al? 19 MR. HUBER: Al Huber, Patterson. You know, 20 we need to make some progress. Can we go ahead and 21 vote? Is there any reason we can't. We've got a full 22 house now.

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 134 1 MR. BROOKMAN: We were waiting for a full 2 house. 3 MR. HUBER: Can we not vote on these things 4 now and get them out of the way, the ones that we can 5 do and get them out of the way, once and for all? 6 MR. BROOKMAN: I would be receptive to that 7 provided that everybody is comfortable moving to that 8 point. I think we are pretty much there. We discussed 9 these at considerable length. 10 MR. ADIN: Can we make sure that Tom and Meg 11 are on the line before? 12 MR. BROOKMAN: Yes. Tom, Meg, are you still 13 with us? 14 MS. WALTNER: This is Meg. I'm still here. 15 I'm sorry. 16 MR. BROOKMAN: Thanks, Meg. 17 We're not hearing from Tom, but that would 18 only be one member absent if Meg is joining us. We do 19 have a quorum, just to be clear. 20 MR. POWERS: I just have a minor question, 21 Alison, on what your intent was. We are not 22 challenging you. On page 5 you have up there, we have

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 135 1 certain things, no problem. But you flip over to page 2 6, are we contradicting any of this? Like if I look 3 at VSO on page 5, "6-inch or smaller bowl diameter," I 4 go to page 6. On the right side, it says, "Nominal 5 diameter is 4 or 6- inch." 6 MS. WILLIAMS: This is Alison. We put the 7 EU slide here just for reference because it does have 8 some differences compared to what HI has proposed. 9 MR. POWERS: Okay. 10 MS. WILLIAMS: Obviously as the Working 11 Group if you were okay with those differences, then 12 you can ignore them. 13 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. So that is helpful. 14 Lucas? 15 MR. ADIN: I would say there was a question 16 -- and it's a good question -- about the order in 17 which we should vote on these things. And I'll propose 18 that we start as broad as possible and work our way 19 down to the more specific items. 20 So if you go to slide 22 and 23, we still 21 have the broader definitions that we are considering. 22 So we might want to start there first and then proceed

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 136 1 with more specific things. 2 MR. BROOKMAN: Well, there were reservations 3 about going in that sequence previously because some 4 of the individuals in this room have a problem with a 5 very broad definition of pump -- 6 MR. ADIN: Right. 7 MR. BROOKMAN: -- and thinking that maybe if 8 we do exclusions and parameters, that that would then 9 help us to get toward the scope. You don't think it 10 will help? 11 MR. HUBER: Not the one that -- he's 12 concerned about the definition of a pump -- 13 MR. BROOKMAN: Right. 14 MR. HUBER: -- and all the exclusions. Just 15 whatever you defined as the scope and product types 16 will be affected by this definition. In other words, 17 it's either going to be a pump only or it's going to 18 be a pump and all of these other things. So I think 19 Lucas is correct. We need to decide, what are we 20 going to cover? Are we going to call the pump the 21 pump only or are we going to call it these other 22 things? And I think that we need to do.

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 137 1 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. 2 MR. ADIN: And to clarify again, Doug, this 3 definition does not control specifically what a 4 subject of standards -- 5 MR. BROOKMAN: Right. 6 MR. ADIN: This controls a whole universe of 7 pumps. 8 MR. BROOKMAN: Right. 9 MR. ADIN: They're a covered product. And 10 then the exclusions on specific things are what we're 11 going to actually write a standard -- 12 MR. BROOKMAN: That's exactly the way I 13 understand it. Yes. Yes. 14 So do you want to do that? Let's look at 15 the pump definition, page 22 in your packets. I'm 16 going to read this because in the transcript, it's not 17 clear how these issues fit with slides as they get 18 edited. "Pump is a device that moves liquids by 19 physical or mechanical action and includes a bare pump 20 and, as manufactured, mechanical equipment, driver, 21 and controls," the words in red, "liquids" and "as 22 manufactured." Those are the edits that came from --

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 138 1 MS. WILLIAMS: It's probably not 2 comprehensive but yes, they're edits. 3 MR. BROOKMAN: And I recall us describing 4 physical and mechanical action in our last meeting. 5 And you can see the graphic, which shows the pump by - 6 - that this definition is inclusive of four 7 distinctive elements: controls, driver, mechanical 8 equipment, and bare pump. 9 Steve Rosenstock? 10 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Steve Rosenstock, EEI. 11 Again, as written, again, and the way the diagram is - 12 - and I think that is very helpful. Again, one way to 13 possibly interpret is to say if a pump does not have 14 all four components, the bare pump, mechanical 15 equipment, driver, and controls, it would not be 16 covered. That is one way to interpret it, especially 17 with that diagram. If a pump is manufactured with 18 just a bare pump, mechanical equipment, and driver 19 since it does not have the controls, is it going to be 20 covered? So, again, it's all about the wordsmithing, 21 but, again, the way, again, sometimes you read it and 22 reread it, with this definition makes it appear that

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 139 1 it has to have all four components or it's not a pump. 2 MR. BROOKMAN: Lucas? 3 MR. ADIN: Well, it's based upon how the 4 pump is ultimately manufactured by the pump 5 manufacturer. 6 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Right. 7 MR. ADIN: So it's manufactured just as the 8 bare pump portion without a motor. It's still covered 9 because that is as manufactured, it's the bare pump. 10 So it can include any of those, starting with the bare 11 pump up to controls, -- 12 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Right. 13 MR. ADIN: -- as manufactured, and still be 14 comfortable. 15 MR. POWERS: I think page 23 defines it. 16 17 MS. WILLIAMS: This is Alison. I mean, we 18 had made edits last time. This is the as19 manufactured part so that it always includes a bare 20 pump. And as-manufactured could include these other 21 items, too. 22 And this diagram is not regulatory. It's

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Commerical and Industrial Pumps Working Group Meeting 03-04-2014

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 140 1 just here for, you know -- 2 MR. BROOKMAN: It's illustrative. 3 MS. WILLIAMS: Yes. 4 MR. POWERS: This is Chuck. But, Alison, if 5 you go to the next page, I think what we tried to do 6 is say their pump is blah blah blah action excluding 7 the mechanical equipment. Then it goes on to say 8 mechanical equipment is -- I mean, it is kind of 9 saying it can be a bare pump, it can be all of the 10 above. 11 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Right. You know, sometimes 12 the way you make the definition, especially when DOE 13 makes a definition for regulatory purposes, it makes a 14 big difference in terms of what you are covering. 15 And, again, I will say, for example, you know, if you 16 -- there are other things where, you know, there might 17 be cause for controls but they're not acquired in the 18 standard. Like, you know, there might be -- like for 19 boilers, they have to have automatic temperature 20 resets, but there is no specific requirement for those 21 resets in the efficiency standard for residential 22 boilers. I'm just saying that that does -- oh, yes.

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 141 1 You can also include, yes -- yes, exactly. 2 You can do that, too. If you go as manufactured, you 3 add the words "as manufactured and may also include 4 mechanical equipment, driver, and controls." I think 5 you are covered. 6 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. 7 MR. HUBER: "Or if included"? 8 MR. ROSENSTOCK: "Or if included," exactly. 9 Yes. "Mechanical equipment, driver, or controls." 10 MR. ADIN: But included by whom? 11 MR. HUBER: The manufacturer. 12 MR. ROSENSTOCK: By the manufacturer. 13 MR. ADIN: So I think we will just have to 14 be clear. 15 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Okay. That's fine. 16 MR. HUBER: I think the intent -- Al Huber, 17 Patterson. The intent is that we know what the intent 18 is. The intent is it's a bare pump. We sell it. It's 19 covered. If it's a bare pump and a driver, it's 20 covered. 21 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Right. 22 MR. HUBER: If it's a bare pump, driver, and

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Commerical and Industrial Pumps Working Group Meeting 03-04-2014

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 142 1 controls, it's covered. 2 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Right. 3 MR. HUBER: Now, that's the intent. 4 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Right. 5 MR. HUBER: So if we can all agree to that, 6 then how you wordsmith it, DOE needs to go wordsmith 7 it and come back, I guess, but I don't know that we 8 need to argue about it. 9 MR. ADIN: Yes. 10 MR. BROOKMAN: Lucas? 11 MR. ADIN: That's a good point, Al. And I 12 was going to mention this, actually, before you 13 brought that up. I think we can just vote on intent - 14

- 15 MR. HUBER: Yes. That's -- 16 MR. ADIN: -- as long as we all agree on 17 what it's supposed to say, you know, and we have a 18 general idea of what a good definition would be and to 19 the extent DOE has to tweak it a little bit to make it 20 work. We are tweaking in the interest of getting what 21 this group has agreed to do. 22 MR. HUBER: Exactly. There you go.

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 143 1 MR. BROOKMAN: And I would add that the 2 additional definitions on page 23 are also useful as 3 showing the inclusive nature of this definition. 4 MR. ADIN: Yes. 5 MR. HUBER: Yes. 6 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Are we ready to take a 7 vote on this? Joanna? 8 MS. MAUER: I would like to request that we 9 just have a little -- we would like to caucus with 10 some of our folks that are on the phones. 11 MR. BROOKMAN: Yes. 12 MS. MAUER: So if we can just put it off for 13 a little bit? 14 MR. BROOKMAN: We just sent Tom Eckman an 15 email. Tom, have you been able to join us for this 16 conversation? Sarah just sent Tom an email. 17 MR. ECKMAN: Yes. I'm on. 18 MR. HUBER: He's on. 19 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Then yes. Let's take 20 a ten-minute break, shall we? 21 MS. MAUER: Okay. 22 MR. BROOKMAN: Yes. That will give you a

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 144 1 chance to think about this. When we return -- that 2 would be -- let's just say we'll return at noon. Do 3 we need to leave the room so you can talk with Tom or 4 can you do that via the phone or what? 5 MR. HUBER: Doug, can I make a suggestion? 6 Since it's so close to noon, you can break for lunch. 7 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. That's a good idea. 8 MR. HUBER: Then we'll beat the crowd. 9 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. So a good suggestion 10 from a member, let's break for lunch now. It's 11:47. 11 MR. BARBOUR: We're going to lunch now? 12 MR. BROOKMAN: Let's go to lunch, a good 13 idea, which means we'll return at 1:00 o'clock. 14 MR. HUBER: 1:00 o'clock. 15 (Off the record.) 16 (On the record.) 17 MR. BROOKMAN: Where we left off was in a 18 discussion about a possible definition for a pump. 19 And at that point, members of the energy efficiency 20 caucus requested time to think this over and talk 21 about it. Do you wish to comment now? Do you wish 22 for us to proceed to a vote? What would be your

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 145 1 preference? Gary? 2 MR. FERNSTROM: So this is Gary. I'm not 3 sure I'm in alignment with the other energy efficiency 4 advocates. But I continue to be worried about this 5 preemption issue with California. And the rationale 6 at the moment I believe is the California regulation 7 really regulates the motors, not the pumps. So if DOE 8 adopts a broad definition of pumps, it's not a problem 9 because the California regulation for pool pumps 10 really hinges on the motor for the pool pump. 11 The problem is that the two-speed, multi12 speed, variable-speed regulation applies to 13 residential in-ground filtration applications. So are 14 we going to be able to identify a motor that is not 15 preempted by DOE such that we can align it with 16 residential in-ground filtration applications and 17 require that two-speed, multi-speed, variable- speed 18 feature? I don't know that that can necessarily be 19 done. So it's not at all clear to me that DOE 20 adopting a broad definition of pumps would not preempt 21 California on account of the fact that the California 22 regulation really addresses the motors.

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Commerical and Industrial Pumps Working Group Meeting 03-04-2014

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 146 1 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. 2 MR. FERNSTROM: I don't know that addressing 3 the motors alone would do what California is currently 4 doing and wants to do. 5 MR. BROOKMAN: So, then, I was wondering. 6 Tom Eckman and Meg Waltner, are you on the phone? 7 MS. MAUER: Meg is, not Tom. 8 MS. WALTNER: I'm here. 9 MR. BROOKMAN: Thank you, Meg. Not Tom? 10 MS. WALTNER: Can you hear me? 11 MR. BROOKMAN: Yes, I can hear you, Meg. 12 MS. WALTNER: Okay. Tom is not on the 13 phone. I believe he is on the plane to D.C. now, but 14 he gave me his proxy on this issue. 15 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. And when he gave you 16 his proxy, how did he describe it to you? He 17 authorized you to vote on his behalf about this broad 18 definition of pump? 19 MS. WALTNER: Yes. 20 MR. BROOKMAN: He did? Okay. Should we do 21 this, then? Should we have a vote? 22 MR. ROSENSTOCK: What are we voting on now?

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Commerical and Industrial Pumps Working Group Meeting 03-04-2014

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 147 1 MR. BROOKMAN: I'm about to restate and 2 noting that there are no visible objections at this 3 point. So what we're about to vote on -- visible 4 objections? 5 MR. FERNSTROM: If I could point out one 6 more thing? This is Gary. I just had the opportunity 7 to view DOE's opinion about preemption this morning 8 because, for some reason, it never showed up in my 9 email box. So I don't think that gives us adequate 10 time to really consider it. 11 MR. BROOKMAN: Yes. And I would note and, 12 unfortunately, we started off this morning with a 13 discussion on Betsy Kohl's memo where she addressed 14 the issue of preemption and there wasn't much 15 discussion. And it was rather simply that that is 16 what DOE has come to understand. So I'm not sure if 17 you were here. There wasn't any further illumination, 18 to be frank. 19 Steve Rosenstock. 20 MR. ROSENSTOCK: I'll just say this to 21 follow up on Gary. Maybe again just keep the 22 discussion open in terms of slide 4. Maybe add that

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Commerical and Industrial Pumps Working Group Meeting 03-04-2014

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 148 1 to the exclusion list as a possibility for people's 2 consideration, add another line, add another row as a 3 possible exclusion. And, you know, if we're going to 4 define pumps by what they are not, we might also need 5 a way to -- 6 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Well, let's just make 7 a note about that. 8 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Yes. 9 MR. BROOKMAN: But, then, let's proceed. 10 MR. ROSENSTOCK: That's enough. 11 MR. BROOKMAN: We'll think about how that 12 might get applied, Steve. 13 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Yes. 14 MR. BROOKMAN: But for right now, here is 15 what I am proposing. I am proposing that the 16 Working Group have a vote on this possible 17 definition: "device that moves liquids by physical or 18 mechanical action and includes a bare pump and, as 19 manufactured or, if included, mechanical equipment, 20 driver, and controls," noting that we're clear in our 21 discussion about that that is the intent, that the 22 actual words may be smithed slightly.

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Commerical and Industrial Pumps Working Group Meeting 03-04-2014

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 149 1 Lucas first? 2 MR. ADIN: I just have a question. And this 3 is probably more for manufacturers. We put in there a 4 device that moves liquids. Does that include or 5 exclude solids-handling pumps? 6 MR. HUBER: Yes, it would. It would. 7 MS. MAUER: Sorry. I didn't hear that 8 answer. 9 MR. ADIN: The question was whether it would 10 include solids-handling pumps. 11 MS. MAUER: And the answer was? 12 MR. ADIN: It would. 13 MS. MAUER: It would? 14 MR. ADIN: Yes. 15 MR. BROOKMAN: Al said, "Yes, it would." 16 MR. HUBER: Yes. 17 MS. MAUER: Okay. 18 MR. BROOKMAN: Joanna? 19 MS. MAUER: This is Joanna. It just seems 20 like that is relevant to our conversation this morning 21 about -- 22 MR. ADIN: Yes.

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 150 1 MR. HUBER: Yes. Well, we already excluded 2 them. 3 MR. ADIN: Right. 4 MR. HUBER: So what's the problem? 5 MR. ADIN: Well, this is the broader -- 6 MR. HUBER: This is a broader scope. 7 MR. ADIN: This includes everything, not 8 just what we're saying here in this. So it's not 9 necessarily -- 10 MR. HUBER: Well, if it has a solid in it, 11 it's not liquid. I mean, it is more than Liquid. In 12 other words, it -- 13 MR. ADIN: Right. 14 MR. HUBER: -- is suspended in liquid, but 15 there are solids in it. 16 MS. WILLIAMS: This is Alison. So this used 17 to say, "fluids," and we were trying to change it to 18 exclude air, essentially. So if there is a better -- 19 MR. HUBER: Well, you could say, "liquids," 20 "to move liquids not containing solids" if you wanted 21 to, I suppose. 22 MS. KOHL: This is Betsy Kohl.

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 151 1 MR. ADIN: But I don't think we want -- 2 MS. KOHL: Yes. 3 MR. ADIN: -- to make it the opposite. We 4 don't necessarily -- 5 MR. HUBER: You don't want to do that? 6 MR. ADIN: No. 7 MS. KOHL: We want a definition that's 8 covered the universe of -- 9 MR. ADIN: The broad universe of pumps. 10 MR. HUBER: Okay. 11 MR. POWERS: You don't want to use the EU. 12 You just claim broader. You don't want to do that 13 because you want it broader. 14 MR. ADIN: That's right. 15 MR. FERNSTROM: So this is Gary again. So, 16 just to be clear, we can exclude pumps that might be 17 pumping solids, but we can't exclude swimming pool 18 pumps. 19 MS. KOHL: That's why we're thinking that 20 this might be an issue. Betsy Kohl, DOE GC. 21 MR. FERNSTROM: Oh, okay. 22 MR. CASE: So what if we had -- sorry. This

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Commerical and Industrial Pumps Working Group Meeting 03-04-2014

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 152 1 is Greg Case with HI. 2 MR. BROOKMAN: Yes? 3 MR. CASE: What if we had "moves liquids"? 4 I just had it. "Liquids and/or with entrained gases 5 and/or solids." 6 MR. BROOKMAN: "Liquids and/or entrained" -- 7 MR. CASE: No. We want this to include 8 everything. 9 MR. BROOKMAN: Yes. 10 MR. CASE: So we want it to have entrained 11 solids and entrained gases 12 MR. HUBER: Why don't you just say 13 "entrained matter" or something? That covers it all, 14 doesn't it? 15 MR. CASE: You have got solids, liquids, and 16 gases; right? So that would cover all. 17 MS. WILLIAMS: Entrained matter? 18 MALE SPEAKER: All matter. 19 MR. HUBER: Or for all matter. It doesn't 20 matter to me. 21 MR. BROOKMAN: That's what I was thinking. 22 We're talking matter here; right? I guess it's more

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Commerical and Industrial Pumps Working Group Meeting 03-04-2014

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 153 1 specific to say "entrained solids, gases, and 2 liquids." 3 MR. ADIN: Well, we still need to -- so that 4 the point that Alison raised about distinguishing 5 between fluids generally and liquids is just to make 6 sure there is no unintentional overlap between this 7 definition and that of compressors. 8 MR. HUBER: No, no overlap with compressors. 9 MR. CASE: Well, if there was -- you had 10 liquids, you don't ever want to put a liquid into a 11 compressor -- 12 MR. HUBER: No, you don't. 13 MR. CASE: -- at the appreciable volume. 14 MR. ADIN: Right. So as long as it's not 15 just gas, it's gas entrained in a liquid -- 16 MR. CASE: Yes, right. 17 MR. ADIN: -- I don't see a problem. 18 MR. CASE: I mean, we could say up to a 19 percent of entrained and stuff like that, but that 20 gets into the weeds again. 21 MR. ADIN: It doesn't seem like we need to 22 be that specific.

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 154 1 MR. POWERS: This is Chuck. Question. In 2 the world of fluids that we pump, there is totally 3 dissolved solids. There is free solids and rocks. 4 Totally dissolved, if you want to call it that, you 5 could take a salt. That's a totally dissolved solid. 6 And the last one is gas, entrained gas, -- 7 MR. ADIN: Right. 8 MR. POWERS: -- entrained gas. So you have 9 entrained gases. And you have and/or entrained 10 solids. I think, you know, you may want to say, "free 11 solids" and then you want to say "totally dissolved 12 solids." That way you cover all three types of 13 properties that you could have in fluid if you're 14 trying to cover it. 15 MR. HUBER: I mean, if that's what you're 16 trying to do. 17 MR. POWERS: If that's what you're trying to 18 do, you've got to technically cover so you don't get 19 yourself -- so you're basically saying "liquids," 20 "that moves liquids," and then you may want to say, 21 "which would include entrained gases" -- 22 MR. HUBER: "May include."

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Commerical and Industrial Pumps Working Group Meeting 03-04-2014

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 155 1 MR. POWERS: -- "which may include" -- 2 sorry, Alison -- "which may include entrained gases, 3 free solids," -- instead of saying, "entrained 4 solids," say, "free solids" -- "and totally dissolved 5 solids." 6 MR. HUBER: Yes. That will do it. 7 MR. POWERS: Then those are the three 8 properties you have in fluids. Right, Charlie? 9 MR. CAPPELLINO: Yes. 10 MR. POWERS: I'm looking from a technical -- 11 I'm just trying to say. Now, if you look at the EU, 12 they give properties of those and limits, but now 13 we're somewhat -- 14 MR. BROOKMAN: So it's consistent with the 15 EU definition? 16 MR. POWERS: But EU actually gives the 17 amounts of those in their definition of clean water. 18 MR. HUBER: Clean water. 19 MR. POWERS: Now they take that and they go 20 to clean water as you can't have much more than this, 21 this, and this. 22 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Charlie, did you want

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Commerical and Industrial Pumps Working Group Meeting 03-04-2014

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 156 1 in here? 2 MR. CAPPELLINO: It got covered it when we 3 made that change here. 4 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. 5 MS. WILLIAMS: Yes. So, again, this is the 6 broader pump. It doesn't have anything to do with 7 what we're going to cover in this rulemaking. 8 MR. POWERS: Yes. 9 MS. WILLIAMS: So the difference with the EU 10 is kind of apples and oranges. 11 MR. POWERS: To a certain degree, that's 12 right. 13 MR. BROOKMAN: Steve Rosenstock? 14 MR. ROSENSTOCK: My editorial. After 15 "manufactured," "and, if included." 16 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. That's just an edit, a 17 small edit. Okay. 18 So are we ready to -- everybody has had a 19 chance to review the edited version that Alison has 20 provided. Doug Potts? 21 MR. POTTS: Doug Potts. Just another 22 editorial. I think we have some extra words there.

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Commerical and Industrial Pumps Working Group Meeting 03-04-2014

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 157 1 After "bare pump," just say, "bare pump as 2 manufactured and, if included." 3 MS. WILLIAMS: So this is Alison. I think 4 the point of "as manufactured" previously was to say 5 that if whoever is defined as a manufacturer had the 6 pump including these things, it would be as 7 manufactured with those things. So it used to say "as 8 included" or something like that, I think. And so the 9 switch to "and manufactured" was designed to 10 accommodate how the pump is sold -- 11 MR. POTTS: Right. 12 MS. WILLIAMS: -- by whoever is defined to 13 be the manufacturer. 14 MR. BROOKMAN: Go ahead, Doug. 15 MR. POTTS: Doug Potts. What if "as 16 manufactured" were moved to the end of the sentence? 17 MS. WILLIAMS: So I think the reason it was 18 moved to the middle was because people wanted it to 19 always include a bare pump. And then if it includes 20 the other things when it's manufactured, they would be 21 included, too, because if you move it to the end, then 22 it's unclear if and when a bare pump alone --

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Commerical and Industrial Pumps Working Group Meeting 03-04-2014

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 158 1 MR. BROOKMAN: That was the logic. 2 MS. WILLIAMS: -- would be covered. 3 MR. BROOKMAN: That's where we were. 4 Al? 5 MR. HUBER: This is the question for DOE. 6 In the regulation, will it define who a manufacturer 7 is? 8 MR. ADIN: So, there's actually a definition 9 for manufacturer. 10 MR. HANDZEL: That's the last -- 11 MR. ADIN: It's in the statute. 12 MR. HANDZEL: Yes. 13 MR. ADIN: So it's already -- 14 MR. HUBER: It's already in the statute? 15 MR. ADIN: Yes. 16 MR. HUBER: Okay. 17 MR. ADIN: Congress has already defined it. 18 MR. HUBER: All right. Good. Fine. I'm 19 fine with that. 20 MR. BROOKMAN: Yes. Okay. And that was 21 also in your -- that was in the transcript, I think. 22 It's up there on the screen, "Pump is a

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Commerical and Industrial Pumps Working Group Meeting 03-04-2014

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 159 1 device that moves liquids (which may include entrained 2 gases, free solids, and totally dissolved solids) by 3 physical or mechanical action and includes a bare 4 pump, as manufactured, and, if included, mechanical 5 equipment, driver, and controls." 6 MS. KOHL: Betsy Kohl, DOE GC. That's too 7 much of a mouthful, I think. 8 MR. ADIN: Right. You either have to take 9 out "as manufactured" or "and if included." 10 MS. WILLIAMS: If included as manufactured? 11 MR. BROOKMAN: Gary? 12 MR. FERNSTROM: This is Gary. If included 13 by the manufacturer. 14 MS. WILLIAMS: You think it should just be - 15

- 16 MS. KOHL: Well, I mean, if included by the 17 manufacturer means as manufactured. 18 MS. WILLIAMS: Right. 19 MS. KOHL: Right? 20 MR. HUBER: Why don't you just say, "if 21 included by the manufacturer," "bare pumps" and this, 22 this, and this, "if included by the manufacturer"?

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Commerical and Industrial Pumps Working Group Meeting 03-04-2014

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 160 1 Does that make it any clearer? 2 MR. ADIN: I think it's equally clear both 3 ways personally. 4 MR. HUBER: I don't have any problem either 5 way either, but I'm just trying to help out here. 6 MR. BROOKMAN: Let's go with what's up here 7 because I thought the distinction was relevant 8 previously that "bare pump" can stand alone. That was 9 the logic behind "as manufactured." Right? So 10 "includes a bare pump as manufactured" and -- 11 MS. WIDDER: What about "includes a bare 12 pump and may also include mechanical equipment, 13 driver, and controls if provided by the manufacturer" 14 or -- I don't know. It's a lot of words. But the 15 "may also include," I feel like that's what we're 16 getting strung up about, "includes a bare pump and" -- 17 MR. BROOKMAN: "May also include." 18 MR. ROSENSTOCK: "May also include." 19 MS. WIDDER: "May also include"? 20 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Yes. That works. 21 MR. ADIN: Or that "if included by the 22 manufacturer."

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Commerical and Industrial Pumps Working Group Meeting 03-04-2014

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 161 1 MR. ROSENSTOCK: "As manufactured." 2 MR. STARR: Let's leave the verb part of the 3 "manufactured" in there as a verb. Otherwise 4 "manufacturer," they don't -- no one really thinks of 5 a distributor as a manufacturer. If they understand 6 that you manufacture something, you maybe are not a 7 manufacturer. I think it will help out your 8 enforcement side. 9 MS. WILLIAMS: I mean, that was the reason 10 we put "as manufactured" in there was because of the 11 statutory flexibility with that. 12 MR. BROOKMAN: And the definition of 13 manufacturer -- 14 MR. HUBER: Which is included -- 15 MR. BROOKMAN: -- Betsy described. 16 MR. HUBER: Yes. 17 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. But let's add "bare 18 pump, as manufactured." And then we need something 19 after "as manufactured." 20 MS. WILLIAMS: "Included bare pump and, as 21 manufactured, mechanical equipment, driver." 22 MR. BROOKMAN: Because there's a comma and

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Commerical and Industrial Pumps Working Group Meeting 03-04-2014

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 162 1 the "and" there. Okay. Okay? Are we ready to do -- 2 MR. ROSENSTOCK: That's where we were 3 originally. 4 MS. WILLIAMS: Yes. 5 MR. ROSENSTOCK: And the issue still is as 6 it reads right now, with that diagram, again, it says, 7 you know, the way I interpret it is it has to have 8 everything or it's not covered. You can erase the 9 diagram all you want. That's not -- 10 MS. WILLIAMS: The diagram is just -- I 11 mean, you shouldn't -- the diagram is just there for 12 illustration. 13 MS. WIDDER: But, actually, I think I agree 14 with Steve's point. This is Sarah. It says, 15 "includes a bare pump." We lost the "if" part or the 16 "may" about the mechanical equipment, driver, and 17 controls. 18 MR. ADIN: So you could change that to say 19 "if included by the manufacturer." 20 MS. KOHL: I like that. That's great. 21 MR. HUBER: Yes. That's what I -- 22 MR. ADIN: Does that address your concern?

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Commerical and Industrial Pumps Working Group Meeting 03-04-2014

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 163 1 MR. HUBER: "If included by the 2 manufacturer." 3 MR. ROSENSTOCK: That works. That's saying 4 the same thing, yes. 5 MR. POWERS: "If included by the 6 manufacturer, the mechanical equipment, driver." 7 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Yes. 8 MR. POWERS: Put the word "the" in. 9 MR. HUBER: Yes. 10 MR. POWERS: Now, I have a question. This is 11 Chuck. So personally I do like the picture. Okay? 12 And the reason is because you used the word "pump" in 13 the beginning. And then in the paragraph, you put 14 "bare pump." So the picture, then when you pull up 15 the picture, you see "Okay. There is a bare pump. 16 And there are the other pieces." Right? 17 Then when you flip over to the next page, we 18 give a more detailed definition of this. And it may be 19 more cognizant. 20 MR. HUBER: I agree with what he's saying. 21 If you have this -- I don't know if you can put 22 diagrams in the regulation.

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Commerical and Industrial Pumps Working Group Meeting 03-04-2014

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 164 1 MALE SPEAKER: For a definition. 2 MR. HUBER: Well, it's more like an example 3 than a definition. You've got the definition. This 4 shows you what the definition is talking about. 5 MR. POWERS: Instead of going to two pages - 6

- 7 MR. HUBER: Like you would illuminate it for 8 something. 9 MR. POWERS: Instead of going to two pages, 10 this chart doesn't -- we're not going to vote on 11 notes. Either clean up above or get rid of the notes. 12 Right? Couldn't we take the next page stuff and 13 squeeze it in at the bottom here and you're done? 14 MR. ADIN: So what we can -- well, really 15 what we -- 16 MR. BROOKMAN: Lucas Adin? 17 MR. ADIN: Sorry. Thanks, Doug. What we 18 will do is, at a minimum, when we write the proposed 19 rule, there is this long preamble section. It 20 explains all this stuff. You have to explain 21 everything eventually. So it will be very clearly 22 explained there. We can use this diagram. That's

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Commerical and Industrial Pumps Working Group Meeting 03-04-2014

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 165 1 fine. I just don't know if we can actually put it in 2 the CFR itself, but, at a minimum, it will be 3 explained there for the -- 4 MR. HUBER: It would be good. 5 MR. BROOKMAN: So I move the question here. 6 Are we ready to do this? I'm going to ask that 7 everybody who agrees with this pump definition and 8 wishes to vote for it raise your hands now. All those 9 in favor raise your hands. 10 (Show of hands.) 11 MR. BROOKMAN: And I see 13 pluses. And 12 then, Meg, how about you and Tom? 13 MS. WALTNER: Yes. 14 MR. BROOKMAN: Yes? Both you and Tom vote 15 yes? 16 MS. WALTNER: Yes. 17 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. So we have 15. And do 18 we have objections? 19 (Show of hand.) 20 MR. BROOKMAN: One objection. And do we 21 have any abstentions? 22 (No response.)

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Commerical and Industrial Pumps Working Group Meeting 03-04-2014

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 166 1 MR. BROOKMAN: I think that's everyone. 2 Okay. So we have achieved a consensus by our rules. 3 And let me note also that we definitely have a quorum 4 here. So this definition of pumps as edited is 5 acceptable to the Working Group. Congratulations. 6 (Applause.) 7 MS. WILLIAMS: We had previously said we 8 were voting on the intent. Should I remove the intent 9 because you just said, "as edited"? 10 MR. BROOKMAN: I think we should make clear 11 that it's -- 12 MR. ADIN: Subject to potential -- 13 MR. BROOKMAN: Interpretation by the -- 14 MR. ADIN: -- edits as necessary to 15 accomplish the same intent. 16 MR. BROOKMAN: I guess, Betsy, I'm asking 17 you this one. Should we do these definitions as well? 18 MS. KOHL: Yes. But, actually, I think if 19 we wanted to make sure -- 20 MR. ADIN: Right. So there's just a 21 procedural point. And I'm sorry for neglecting to 22 bring this up at the beginning of the meeting, but we

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 167 1 learned that the member, the original member, of the 2 Working Group, who left is not going to be replaced. 3 MR. CASE: Gary Witt? 4 MR. HUBER: Gary Witt. 5 MR. ADIN: Gary Witt; right. So, as of now, 6 we're officially 16 and not 17. And I wanted to make 7 sure that there were no concerns about the ground 8 rules or how those numbers were affected. I mean, for 9 DOE's purposes, we're not concerned about it, but I 10 just wanted to make sure everyone is still okay with 11 the ground rules as adopted based on the Working Group 12 officially being one fewer member than initially. 13 MR. BROOKMAN: Yes? 14 MR. HUBER: Yes. The industry is fine with 15 that. 16 MR. ADIN: Okay. 17 MR. BROOKMAN: Al says the industry is fine 18 with it. Chuck, question? 19 MR. POWERS: Will there be a record because 20 a month from now I will forget, three months from now, 21 and who knows what is going to happen next year, what 22 we voted on is a picture right there? In other words,

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 168 1 here is what I'm worried about. Somebody words it -- 2 MR. BROOKMAN: Right. 3 MR. POWERS: Somebody says, "Oh, they agreed 4 on this two-page tabulation of somebody's words." No. 5 We voted on that. So afterwards we can look at what 6 gets written up, which I think we all mean, we voted 7 on that picture right there, nothing more. 8 MS. WILLIAMS: Yes. So this is Alison. 9 Currently I am keeping the slides that we voted on at 10 the end of the presentation -- 11 MR. POWERS: Perfect. 12 MS. WILLIAMS: -- so we can carry those 13 through and -- 14 MR. POWERS: If I have to report out to 15 somebody to say, "What did you vote on?" this is the 16 slide I voted on. And there is no -- 17 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. We can do that. And 18 the meeting summary will reflect that. Okay? 19 MR. POWERS: Okay. You know what I'm 20 saying? Later on -- 21 MR. BROOKMAN: I do. No. I -- 22 MR. POWERS: -- these changes, the intent,

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 169 1 the wordsmithing, I just want to make sure. 2 MR. BROOKMAN: That will be a detailed entry 3 in both the slides and my meeting summary. 4 MR. POWERS: Yes. 5 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. So, then, now scanning 6 the room here, to me losing a member is unfortunate 7 but doesn't seem to have a lot of bearing on the 8 ground rules, which we discussed laboriously for over 9 a day. So is everybody comfortable with keeping the 10 ground rules as they are, the decision-making rules 11 remaining the same, the quorum-setting rules being the 12 same, the delegation rules all being the same? It's 13 just one person different. Yes? We're all okay with 14 that? 15 (Show of hands.) 16 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. So it's unanimous? 17 Yes? You probably don't have Tom's proxy on this. 18 Maybe you do. 19 MS. WALTNER: No, I don't have his proxy on 20 this. It's that one issue. But I am -- 21 MR. BROOKMAN: That's okay with you? So 22 we'll list Tom as being an abstention. And we'll have

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 170 1 one abstention and 15 yeses on maintaining the ground 2 rules as they are, noting that one member is no longer 3 a part of the Working Group. Okay? Okay. 4 Now, these definitions, we should probably - 5 - because I was reading these. I think we've worked. 6 Most of these maybe we need to work on a little more 7 based on the foregoing discussion. So I think it's 8 useful to adopt these definitions as well. 9 What about bare pump as listed? Bare pump 10 is a device that moves liquids by physical or 11 mechanical action excluding mechanical equipment, 12 driver, and controls. Chuck? 13 MR. POWERS: I think you should take the 14 words you have on the previous, use them up to the 15 point -- sorry. Alison, would you go to the previous 16 slide? 17 MS. WILLIAMS: Yes. 18 MR. POWERS: I would say we use that 19 definition. Go back. Sorry. 20 MS. WILLIAMS: I thought you wanted this. 21 No? 22 MR. POWERS: If you just copy and paste?

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 171 1 Take where it says, "Bare shaft pump." Say, "Bare 2 pump." 3 MS. WILLIAMS: Yes. 4 MR. POWERS: "A device that moves liquids, 5 which may include" blah blah blah, "action excluding." 6 Yes. 7 MR. ADIN: This is Lucas. If the language 8 is otherwise identical there, I mean, you could just 9 say a bare pump is a pump that excludes or a pump 10 excluding. Do you know what I mean? 11 MR. POWERS: Yes, yes, yes. 12 MR. BROOKMAN: Yes. 13 MR. HUBER: That's the language. You have 14 already defined bare pump or pump. 15 MR. POWERS: Yes, yes. 16 MR. HUBER: Right. 17 MR. POWERS: That's true. That's true. 18 MR. ADIN: Effectively -- 19 MR. CASE: It depends what order they're 20 listed in, though. 21 MR. POWERS: No. 22 MR. CASE: Right?

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 172 1 MR. HUBER: It will list that. 2 MR. ADIN: It will be the same. 3 MR. CASE: Okay. Okay. 4 MR. POWERS: Yes. 5 MR. BROOKMAN: So that makes sense to me. A 6 bare pump is "a pump excluding mechanical equipment, 7 driver, and controls." 8 MR. HUBER: That is good enough. 9 MR. BROOKMAN: Yes? Okay. 10 MR. HUBER: That is good enough. 11 MR. BROOKMAN: So is everybody comfortable 12 with that one? Does anyone object to that as the 13 definition for bare pump? No one objects? 14 MR. FERNSTROM: And you're putting pump in 15 parentheses? What's the indication of that? 16 MS. WILLIAMS: No. That refers to this. 17 MR. FERNSTROM: Okay. Perfect. Gotcha. 18 Thank you. 19 MS. WILLIAMS: Great. 20 MR. BROOKMAN: So no one objects. And, Meg, 21 where is your vote on that one? 22 MS. WILLIAMS: Are we voting on all of these

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 173 1 individually? 2 MR. BROOKMAN: We could do them as a 3 package, but I think we are better off doing them 4 individually. 5 MR. POWERS: I think it'll be better 6 combined. You're done. 7 MR. HUBER: Yes. You might as well do them 8 combined. 9 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. We'll do it combined. 10 We'll wait on the vote. 11 What about mechanical equipment? 12 MR. HUBER: Fine. 13 MR. BROOKMAN: We discussed this at length 14 previously. Mechanical equipment is "any component 15 that transfers energy from the driver to the bare 16 pump." I see a few heads nodding up and down. We're 17 comfortable with that? Yes. Okay. We're moving on. 18 Driver. Driver is "the machine providing 19 mechanical input to drive the bare pump through the 20 mechanical equipment and may include an electric 21 motor, natural gas or diesel engine, or steam-driven 22 turbine," or observing fuel neutrality here. Charlie?

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 174 1 MR. CAPPELLINO: Charlie Cappellino, ITT. 2 The point here that I quite didn't understand, it 3 says, "natural gas, or diesel engine," which would 4 seem to exclude gasoline- driven engines. So I didn't 5 know if maybe internal combustion engine, which would 6 include natural gas, diesel, or gasoline-powered, 7 might be an improvement. 8 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. I see. Yes. Internal 9 combustion will do it. 10 MR. ROSENSTOCK: And turbine, I guess it 11 could be a gas turbine as well as a steam turbine. 12 MS. WILLIAMS: Just say turbine? 13 MR. POWERS: Well, to be fair to, like, what 14 Charlie said, you might want to say, "gas/diesel." 15 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Yes, "gas/steam" or 16 "gas/diesel." 17 MR. POWERS: "Gas/diesel." 18 MR. BROOKMAN: And then your gas would be 19 inclusive. 20 MR. POWERS: And you probably don't need to 21 use the word "driven." Just say, "gas/steam turbine." 22 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Yes. For controls or are

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 175 1 we still on driver? I'm sorry. 2 MR. BROOKMAN: Hang on just a second. Let 3 everybody get a chance to read this. 4 MR. POWERS: Doug, if I could ask a question 5 on drivers? 6 MR. BROOKMAN: Please, Chuck? 7 MR. POWERS: There are drivers that are 8 directly connected to the pump. So when we have the 9 word "drivers, machine input to drive a bare pump 10 through mechanical equipment," it may or may not go 11 through mechanical equipment. 12 MR. HUBER: Yes. It may not. 13 MR. POWERS: It could be -- 14 MS. WILLIAMS: Any or -- 15 MR. POWERS: I'm okay with it as it is, but 16 there could -- you know, somebody could say, "Well, I 17 don't have to apply because mine is directly 18 connected." 19 MR. HANDZEL: Yes. A close-coupled pump 20 would. 21 MR. HUBER: Yes. 22 MR. POWERS: I mean, it's a minor item, but

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 176 1 there may not be mechanical equipment is my point. 2 MR. ADIN: So you could eliminate the 3 "through mechanical equipment," and it would mean the 4 same thing; right? 5 MR. POWERS: Yes. 6 MS. WILLIAMS: Someone specifically wanted 7 that before. 8 MR. BROOKMAN: You don't think we need to do 9 the "mechanical equipment"? 10 MR. HUBER: I don't think you do. 11 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Or as another alternative - 12

- 13 MR. HUBER: It's not part of the driver. 14 What do you care? It's just talking about its action. 15 MR. ROSENSTOCK: I was going to provide you 16 another alternative. 17 MR. BROOKMAN: Yes? 18 MR. ROSENSTOCK: "Directly or through the 19 mechanical equipment." 20 MR. BROOKMAN: Directly or through? That's 21 the thrust of Chuck's point; right, directly? 22 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Yes.

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 177 1 MR. POWERS: Or "With or without mechanical 2 equipment." 3 MR. HANDZEL: No. I like -- 4 MR. HUBER: "Directly or through" is fine. 5 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Driver is "the machine 6 providing mechanical input to drive the bare pump 7 directly or through the mechanical equipment and may 8 include an electric motor, internal combustion engine, 9 or gas/steam turbine." That's pretty inclusive; right, 10 on the uses? Yes? I see a lot of heads nodding up and 11 down. Okay. 12 Then we're moving on to controls. Doug? 13 MR. POTTS: Yes? 14 MR. BROOKMAN: Go ahead. Doug Potts? 15 MR. ROSENSTOCK: My only thought is in terms 16 of generic definition, do you need the second 17 sentence? The first sentence covers everything. 18 MS. WILLIAMS: This? 19 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Yes. I mean, it's just an 20 example, but it's any device that can control a 21 driver. So it can be anything. 22 MS. WILLIAMS: You wanted the second half of

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Commerical and Industrial Pumps Working Group Meeting 03-04-2014

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 178 1 the definition in the driver. 2 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Whoa, whoa, whoa. What? 3 MS. WILLIAMS: I said, "You wanted the 4 second half of the definition in the driver." 5 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Well, okay. 6 MS. WILLIAMS: I'm just -- 7 MR. ROSENSTOCK: I know. I know. I'm 8 sorry. 9 (Simultaneous conversation.) 10 MR. POWERS: So one month took away that 11 sentence. Maybe we all -- 12 MR. ROSENSTOCK: I like to throw people off. 13 MR. BROOKMAN: Well, let's just see if we 14 need the second half. Do we need it? Do we want it? 15 That's fine. 16 MR. ROSENSTOCK: If we need it, that's fine. 17 MR. BROOKMAN: Controls? This means "any 18 device that could be used to control the driver." 19 MR. POTTS: This is Doug Potts. I have a 20 question or a comment. 21 MR. BROOKMAN: Doug Potts, yes? 22 MR. POTTS: I am wondering -- and maybe the

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Commerical and Industrial Pumps Working Group Meeting 03-04-2014

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 179 1 pump manufacturers can weigh in on this -- if as a 2 definition of controls, it's too broad. And I'm 3 wondering because you say anything controls the 4 driver. You could interpret that as an on/off switch 5

-- 6 MR. HUBER: Exactly. 7 MR. POTTS: -- pressure transmitters. 8 MR. CASE: Exactly the intent. 9 MR. POTTS: And that's your intent? 10 MR. HUBER: Yes. 11 MR. POTTS: So you don't feel that would 12 become unwieldy at all from a 13 manufacturing/manufacturers' perspective? 14 MR. HUBER: No. 15 MR. POTTS: And for me as a buyer of pumps 16 and systems, I'm typically not buying on and off 17 switches with the pump. That's sort of an electrical 18 contractor thing. So I don't think it would hurt me 19 either, but I just wanted to understand that. 20 MR. BROOKMAN: Lucas? 21 MR. ADIN: Just a point of clarification as 22 far as how this would actually apply in the scope of

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 180 1 regulation. I mean, the controls being part of the 2 pump is only if it's actually manufactured by the 3 manufacturer that way. If it's included by the 4 manufacturer, then yes. It's a part of the -- and, 5 you know, going even further as far as the standard is 6 concerned, we would have to consider as part of the 7 standard analysis how we considered the controls as 8 part of the overall measurement of the pump's energy 9 use. So that's even a step farther. 10 So just saying that controls are defined and 11 they are a part of the pump doesn't necessarily mean 12 that you are changing how those pumps are going to be 13 configured because we haven't gone that far yet. 14 MR. BROOKMAN: Louis, you're next. 15 MR. STARR: Just kind of the first part of 16 this is "any device that can be used to control the 17 driver." It seems like there inherently needs to be 18 something -- even if it is on/off, it needs to be 19 something as a feedback loop to otherwise just have 20 any. A switch would do that. And you just leave it 21 on all the time. So I don't know. It seems like there 22 needs -- I mean, the second part covers that. It says

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Commerical and Industrial Pumps Working Group Meeting 03-04-2014

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 181 1 but it's for those ones that have the controls or -- 2 MR. HUBER: Well, an example is a sump pump. 3 MR. BROOKMAN: Al Huber? 4 MR. HUBER: Excuse me. I'm sorry. 5 MR. BROOKMAN: That's okay. 6 MR. HUBER: A sump pump has a float switch, 7 which is basically on and off. And that's what we had 8 in mind. I mean, you could call that a feedback loop, 9 I suppose, if you wanted to, but you are correct. An 10 on and off switch may be appropriate for some 11 applications. 12 MR. BROOKMAN: Chuck? 13 MR. STARR: It's closed loop, as opposed to 14 open loop. So what you just described is closed loop. 15 In other words, it feeds back on itself. 16 MR. HUBER: Yes. So, I mean, you know, we 17 just didn't want to exclude any type of control 18 method. That's what we were trying not to do -- 19 MR. BROOKMAN: So that was Louis -- 20 MR. HUBER: -- so we didn't limit the user. 21 That's what we were after. 22 MR. BROOKMAN: -- followed by Al and now to

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 182 1 Chuck. 2 MR. POWERS: So a question for everybody. 3 Lucas touched on it. We're defining pump. We're 4 defining a lot of things today and others. At the end 5 of the day, any of these questions we ask is a direct 6 relationship. How does that impact efficiency? How 7 does that impact MEI number; right? We can define 8 this however you want, but if it has an on/off switch 9 and it doesn't help or make worse the efficiency, it 10 doesn't matter. So you know what I'm saying? 11 So at the end of the day, the ruling we're 12 trying to come up with is how can we improve 13 efficiency or not? So, you know, in my mind, I'm 14 looking at that saying, you know, if we've got a float 15 switch, it's on or off and, you know, whatever. Does 16 that help or not help; right, the efficiency, where a 17 VFD would. And maybe the right type of soft starters 18 are. You know what I mean? So I'm trying to relate 19 it to how does it help or not help efficiency? 20 MR. BROOKMAN: Alison? 21 MS. WILLIAMS: Let me just clarify or follow 22 on to what Lucas said. So sort of it matters what is

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Commerical and Industrial Pumps Working Group Meeting 03-04-2014

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 183 1 defined here in the broad definition of pump when we 2 define our scope and determine what the metric is, 3 within the metric and the test procedure, we will 4 probably have to be more specific with the individual 5 control types. And so if there is a control type that 6 doesn't save any energy, we may ignore it in the 7 metric and test procedure essentially. 8 MR. BROOKMAN: Steve Rosenstock? 9 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Steve Rosenstock, EEI. For 10 the purposes of this, I'll just throw this out there. 11 Maybe in the first sentence because there can be 12 surge, compression, or other controls on the pump that 13 are safety-related or, you know, that don't 14 necessarily have any impact on the energy usage, do 15 you want to say, "Any device that can be used to 16 control the energy usage of the driver" because there 17 are going to be other controls just for safety 18 purposes or other purposes that they're controlling 19 the driver, but DOE is not going to regulate them? 20 MR. BROOKMAN: If you just use the first 21 sentence, what is not included there? Lucas, go 22 ahead.

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 184 1 MR. ADIN: Well, just as a general point in 2 -- I don't know if this clarifies what I said earlier, 3 but being this broad just gives us the ability to 4 consider various types of controls; right? It 5 certainly doesn't require us to consider them. So we 6 just say it controls broadly any of these types of 7 things. We'll get to that, to deciding exactly which 8 types and how we'll consider them. We don't 9 necessarily have to at all. And I just think, you 10 know, we don't want to be restrictive. If it means 11 that a certain class of pumps is excluded because of 12 the controls that it has or something. Does that at 13 all clarify what I said earlier? 14 MR. POWERS: Yes. That helps a lot. And in 15 my mind now, you know, if I look at a diesel-driven 16 unit with the aspiration, you've got the diesel. And 17 a control could be the aspirator. If you took a gas 18 turbine, you could look at your blade frame. You know 19 what I mean? So there are different controls that 20 control each of these items; right? So I think the 21 broader sense we have it is control means any device 22 that is used to control drivers. You look at all of

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 185 1 these drivers. These have numerous types of governors 2 to whatever; right, not just what we think practical, 3 a VFD or some other things; right? There are all sorts 4 of numerous -- 5 MR. BROOKMAN: So I'm hearing that the first 6 complete sentence, "Controls means any driver that can 7 be used to control the driver," that that's inclusive 8 and it's acceptable? Yes? Okay. 9 So then we have now gone through the 10 definition for bare pump, the definition for 11 mechanical equipment, the definition of driver, and 12 the definition of controls. 13 MS. WILLIAMS: Doug, on controls, did we 14 resolve whether the second clause needs to be in there 15 or not? 16 MR. BROOKMAN: I thought we had just -- I 17 implied that the second clause didn't. 18 MS. WILLIAMS: Oh, okay. 19 MR. BROOKMAN: It's out. 20 MS. WILLIAMS: Thank you. 21 MR. BROOKMAN: I'm sorry. I should have 22 been more specific. The second clause is gone.

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Commerical and Industrial Pumps Working Group Meeting 03-04-2014

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 186 1 We have now considered these four 2 definitions: 3 bare pump, mechanical equipment, driver, and 4 controls. I'm going to pose the question, see if we 5 can obtain consensus on these, what is characterized 6 in the slide as the general description of pump 7 components. All those in favor of accepting these 8 four definitions, as edited by Alison on the screen, 9 do so by raising your hand. 10 (Show of hands.) 11 MR. BROOKMAN: So we have everyone in the 12 room. And then, Meg, what is your thought about 13 accepting these definitions? 14 MS. WALTNER: Yes. 15 MR. BROOKMAN: Yes. Okay. 16 MS. WALTNER: Yes. 17 MR. POWERS: Fifteen, on the phone, and one 18 out. 19 MR. BROOKMAN: Fifteen. And then I'm going 20 to count Tom Eckman as being an abstention since he 21 didn't have the capacity to vote. 22 MR. FERNSTROM: This is Gary. Meg said that

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 187 1 Tom had authorized her to have his proxy? 2 MR. BROOKMAN: Yes. 3 MR. FERNSTROM: Does that fit into our rules 4 or -- 5 MS. WALTNER: Yes. Tom only authorized me 6 on the one issue -- 7 MR. FERNSTROM: Thanks. 8 MS. WALTNER: -- not generally. 9 MR. BROOKMAN: Thank you, Meg. Appreciate 10 that clarification. 11 MS. WALTNER: Yes. I don't feel 12 comfortable. I mean, I would assume he would approve 13 as well, but I don't know. 14 MR. BROOKMAN: Yes. Thank you. Just as a 15 matter of caution, I guess, just a presumption on my 16 part. 17 Okay. So we have then obtained consensus 18 based on our rules. And we do once again have a 19 quorum present on those four definitions. That's 20 great. We're making big progress here. Now, what 21 should we do next? 22 MR. HUBER: Parameters?

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Commerical and Industrial Pumps Working Group Meeting 03-04-2014

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 188 1 MR. BROOKMAN: Parameters? It sounds like a 2 winner. Let's do parameters. Okay. Once again I'm 3 looking at slide 5 now. 4 I thought at the end of our last meeting we 5 had basically considered all of these quite fully. 6 And in the transcript, I said, "Gee, I think these are 7 mostly done." Those are my words. 8 But we didn't vote on it at that point. And 9 I wanted to reserve the vote to give people a chance 10 to mull this over and think it through. And I think 11 that the primary edits, as Alison has shown here, were 12 listed in red: shaft power at BEP and two and four 13 pole being indicative of the range of speeds and six14 inch or smaller bowl diameter. There was about 50-70 15 pages of transcript to cover those items, by the way. 16 Chuck? 17 MR. POWERS: So a question. If we have 18 another discussion or a vote on the kinds of products, 19 the six or, bowl diameter, smaller VTS or HI VSO 20 should be removed because that's under a different 21 classification. 22 MS. WILLIAMS: So right now the proposal has

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Commerical and Industrial Pumps Working Group Meeting 03-04-2014

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 189 1 been that these apply to the pumps recommended by HI. 2 So I don't know if you want to -- 3 MR. POWERS: Well, all I'm saying, these are 4 the technical parameters; right? 5 MS. WILLIAMS: Right. 6 MR. POWERS: I'm just thinking if it's six7 inch or smaller, we have another whatever page it is, 8 which was the lot cycle pumps or whatever, we'll get 9 into that category. 10 MS. WILLIAMS: Right. So my understanding 11 is that the more pumps are added to the scope beyond 12 what HI recommended, we would have to have another -- 13 MR. POWERS: Right. 14 MS. WILLIAMS: -- discussion about 15 parameters. 16 MR. POWERS: Right. So do you want -- 17 MS. WILLIAMS: I mean, I can take it out. I 18 don't care. I am just -- 19 MR. POWERS: Or put it under notes maybe. 20 MR. BROOKMAN: And the note would be if -- 21 what would the note be? 22 MR. HUBER: It's specific to one model. Al

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 190 1 Huber. 2 MR. BROOKMAN: Thank you, Al. 3 MR. HUBER: It's specific to one model, 4 Chuck, but it's still a parameter -- or not one model. 5 You've got two different models here. 6 MR. POWERS: VSO. They're the same. 7 MS. WILLIAMS: It's the same thing. 8 MR. POWERS: Yes. 9 MR. HUBER: VTS -- 10 MR. POWERS: Yes, VTS. 11 MR. HUBER: -- and HI VSO -- 12 MR. BROOKMAN: What I heard Alison say a 13 moment ago, VTS/HI VSO, that corresponds to the HI 14 proposal. 15 MR. HUBER: That's correct. 16 MR. BROOKMAN: If this group decides to go 17 broader than the HI proposal, then we may need to 18 modify this parameter. 19 MR. HUBER: Yes. That's correct. 20 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Should we just make a 21 notation along those lines? 22 MR. HUBER: That's fine.

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Commerical and Industrial Pumps Working Group Meeting 03-04-2014

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 191 1 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. And that gives us 2 space; right? 3 MR. POWERS: Okay. Next question is so we 4 agreed on the nominal -- Chuck Powers -- on the two 5 and four pole. I'm still kind of confused, Lucas. 6 What was the DOE to confirm this would exclude, 7 permanent? Can we clean that up now? 8 MR. BROOKMAN: Lucas? 9 MR. ADIN: Well, I still actually have some 10 questions on the speed myself. 11 MR. POWERS: Okay. 12 MR. ADIN: I don't personally feel 13 comfortable voting on that as written, and I think 14 it's mainly about understanding exactly what we're 15 saying with the part where it says, "Designed for 16 nominal two and four-pole speeds." I mean, I 17 understand in terms of an induction motor what that 18 means, but are we considering variable-speed 19 applications, too? I mean, is it a range of speeds or 20 is it -- 21 MR. POWERS: Well, I'll try to help. I 22 brought some books here that I gave to your

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Commerical and Industrial Pumps Working Group Meeting 03-04-2014

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 192 1 consultants, -- 2 MR. ADIN: Right. 3 MR. POWERS: -- several different motor 4 guides. These are conventional public information 5 books on all kinds of things; right? If you go to 6 induction motors and you go to 1 horsepower, you go to 7 50 horsepower, you go to 200 horsepower, they're not 8 all the exact same speed. They're 3,540 to 3,510 to 9 whatever; right? 10 MR. BROOKMAN: Right. 11 MR. POWERS: So that's where we come to the 12 word "nominal." You go to submersible motors. A lot 13 of them, almost all of them, are fluid- filled. You 14 know, Greg knows this and the other players in this. 15 And fluid-filled, they're going to even run a little 16 slower than that, you know, 3,420, whatever; right? 17 So I think, you know, in my mind, two and four pole 18 was okay, but I think somebody was trying to basically 19 say nominal two and four; right? 20 Because some of them might confuse to think 21 3,600 and 1,200 and they'll get around it. Like I 22 think Sarah was saying before, somebody will say, "Oh,

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 193 1 well, I'm two and four pole. The definition in IEEE 2 is 3,600 rpm. Well, I don't have to comply with 3 this." I'm speculating that's where we were trying to 4 go. 5 MR. HUBER: Right. We said, "nominal." Al 6 Huber, Patterson. Nominal two and four pole. That's 7 the reason we said it that way. That's what it means. 8 MR. ADIN: The theoretical no-load speed for 9

-- 10 MR. HUBER: It can be. We just say it's 11 nominal because it can be any. Just like he 12 described, it could be 3,540. It could be 3,590. It 13 could be 3,600. 14 MR. POWERS: Right. 15 (Simultaneous conversation.) 16 MR. POWERS: This is Chuck again speaking. 17 I worked in the field too much starting pumps up, but 18 when you use the word "induction," you throw a whole 19 other parameter. That to me is how quick is that unit 20 going to come up to speed? You know, if you have VFD 21 drives, you know, startup systems and all, you know, 22 induction, you know, may not help you because you have

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Commerical and Industrial Pumps Working Group Meeting 03-04-2014

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 194 1 asynchronous induction, permanent magnet, and the list 2 goes on. 3 MR. ADIN: To clarify, I'm not saying that I 4 think we should include the word "induction" motors in 5 here. I'm wondering whether this limit covers just 6 the pumps that are powered by an induction break. 7 MS. WILLIAMS: So the question -- 8 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Can I follow up? I was 9 going to say, you know -- 10 MR. BROOKMAN: This is Steve Rosenstock. 11 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Steve Rosenstock, EEI. Is 12 there an issue of concern about six and eight- pole 13 motors out there? Is there something being missed to 14 get over six and eight-pole motors, for whatever 15 reason? 16 MS. WILLIAMS: This is Alison. So I think 17 the question we are trying to answer is if you have an 18 ECM motor, would you still consider it designed for 19 nominal two-pole speed or not? 20 MR. HUBER: Al Huber, Patterson. The pump 21 will be designed to operate at a certain speed. We 22 really don't care what the driver is.

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 195 1 MS. WILLIAMS: Okay. 2 MR. HUBER: So if you want to use a PM 3 motor, it would probably be operating close to the 4 nominal speed of two or four-pole for those in the 5 scope. 6 MS. WILLIAMS: Okay. 7 MR. POWERS: Chuck Powers again. When you 8 go back to what we just voted on -- again, I'm just 9 trying to get in context -- almost to what Al was 10 saying, steam turbines, you know, gas engines, it's 11 where is the pump designed for? Steam turbines we all 12 know can go, what, ten percent more before the blades 13 start to go or other things? So I think the two and 14 four-pole nominal kind of set the stage. 15 MR. LIN: This is Paul Lin with Regal. Why 16 not just say 3,600 nominal or 1,800 nominal, instead 17 of having it 2 or 4-pole speed? Why don't you just -- 18 MR. HUBER: Yes. That's fine. I don't 19 care. 20 MR. LIN: That makes it more clear. 21 MR. HUBER: Well, we made 3,600. 22 MR. HANDZEL: But to a --

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 196 1 MR. HUBER: I mean, 2-pole is 36. Eighteen 2 hundred is three-pole. 3 MR. LIN: That makes it agnostic to the 4 driver; right? 5 MR. HUBER: Yes. That's fine. I'm happy 6 with that. 7 MR. BROOKMAN: So the word "nominal," I just 8 want to be -- I understand conceptually what you are 9 trying to say here. I have asked Callie to look it 10 up. What does nominal mean? 11 MS. REIS: Excuse me one second. 12 (Laughter.) 13 MR. BROOKMAN: Just so we're clear. 14 MR. POWERS: She's got the third edition of 15 Google. 16 MS. REIS: Yes. More like 3G. 17 MS. WIDDER: There's really bad service in 18 this room. 19 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Okay. Well, we 20 understand what the concept is supposed to mean. I 21 guess I'm stuck on the word for the moment. 22 So in this last conversation, I heard, I

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Commerical and Industrial Pumps Working Group Meeting 03-04-2014

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 197 1 believe, only from manufacturers. And all the 2 manufacturers said, "Yes. Nominal two and four- pole 3 means, practically speaking, a range of speeds." And 4 we understand what that is. And I haven't heard 5 anything from the energy efficiency folks. That seems 6 okay to you? Okay. 7 MS. WILLIAMS: So -- sorry. 8 MR. HUBER: No. 9 MS. WILLIAMS: This is Alison. Can I -- 10 MR. HUBER: That's fine. 11 MS. WILLIAMS: So as potentially more VFDs 12 are used, is there a chance that manufacturers are 13 going to start designing for other nominal speeds that 14 aren't here? 15 MR. HUBER: Probably not because -- 16 MR. BROOKMAN: Yes, Al? Go ahead. 17 MR. HUBER: We probably will not. We will 18 design for 3,600 or 1,800. And then you just ramp the 19 speed. That's how you get the various load profiles 20 that you need. We will not be designing anything. 21 And the reason we wouldn't, if you can design a pump 22 to operate properly at 3,600, it is usually smaller

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 198 1 and lighter and less expensive in general, generally 2 speaking. So that's the reason we would not. 3 MS. WILLIAMS: Thank you. 4 MR. HUBER: Is that clear? 5 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Thanks, Al. 6 MR. HUBER: And while we're talking about 7 speed, you know we wrote the letter about why we 8 didn't give you the 1,200 -- 9 MS. WILLIAMS: Yes. 10 MR. HUBER: -- is because we all designed at 11 1,800 and then run it at 12 and see what we get. 12 MS. WILLIAMS: Okay. 13 MR. HUBER: Because the market is so small, 14 we don't bother -- 15 MS. WILLIAMS: Designing. 16 MR. HUBER: -- design for 1,200. 17 MR. BROOKMAN: Lucas? 18 MR. ADIN: This is just a point of 19 clarification. We have gotten a couple of questions 20 about whether any of the parameters here would exclude 21 things like circulators because a lot of them are 22 under one horsepower. Just reiterating, these

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 199 1 parameters are to narrow the scope within the HI 2 proposal, that group of pumps. So circulators can 3 still be considered, but they would have separate 4 parameters appropriate to them. These would be for 5 the pumps in the HI proposal scope. So the Lot 11 -- 6 MR. BROOKMAN: That's a good point. And 7 that raises kind of a process issue for me because if 8 we vote to accept these parameters, then three votes I 9 think could derail, including circulators, if I'm not 10 mistaken. 11 MR. ADIN: Well, the point, Doug, was that 12 if we vote on these, voting in the affirmative on 13 these does not by itself exclude circulators. 14 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. 15 MR. POWERS: This is Chuck. If I may? 16 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. I agree with that. 17 Chuck, yes? 18 MR. POWERS: I think where -- Lucas is gone, 19 but if I go back to the original agenda that I read 20 the other day when you sent it out and stuff, it is 21 talking about -- where was it? Somewhere about the 22 next opportunities, you know, feasibility timeline,

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 200 1 DOE does a follow-on rulemaking. So the second bullet 2 would be what is the next set. 3 MR. BROOKMAN: Yes. Let me take back what I 4 said a moment ago because the header here reads, "HI 5 standard parameters proposal for HI- recommended 6 pumps." And our overall decision- making rule is 7 everything is included until it is excluded. So 8 circulator pumps are still considered a part of all of 9 this until we decide as a group to exclude them. So 10 that is the clarity that I -- I just had to 11 reinterpret it in my own brain. 12 Steve Rosenstock? 13 MR. ROSENSTOCK: I was just going to say I 14 want to say this is a -- I'm thinking of a universe of 15 HI pump. This is a subset of the HI pump that we're 16 just voting on after discussion. 17 MR. BROOKMAN: Correct. 18 MR. ROSENSTOCK: And then there are other 19 universes of other pumps to be voted on separately. 20 MR. BROOKMAN: Correct. That is a useful 21 clarification. 22 Gary?

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 201 1 MR. FERNSTROM: This is Gary. You answered 2 my question. Thank you. 3 MR. BROOKMAN: Thank you. 4 Paul Lin? 5 MR. LIN: Just on that clarification, 3,600 6 or 1,800 rpm, should that be driver speed versus motor 7 speed? 8 (Simultaneous conversation.) 9 MS. WILLIAMS: This is Alison. I just want 10 to clarify for the transcript that I have written 11 under proposal for both, but it's only for pumps 12 recommended by HI and that modifications or additional 13 parameters may be determined for additional pump types 14 not recommended by HI, just so we're clear. 15 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. That's good. That's 16 inclusive. 17 Yes, Joanna? 18 MS. MAUER: Joanna Mauer. I just wanted to 19 confirm my understanding of these parameters, that 20 they're not exactly the same as the EU parameters, but 21 it's actually a slightly broader scope than EU. Is 22 that fair?

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 202 1 MS. WILLIAMS: So this is Alison. So this 2 slide up here is the EU parameters that we just wanted 3 to display so that everyone sees them and that key 4 differences that we see are that in the EU, the 5 vertical multistage pumps do not have a head or a 6 power limit and the submersible multistage pumps do 7 not have flow head or power limits. So in that way, 8 those are probably more broad in the EU than what is 9 being considered here. 10 MR. BROOKMAN: Greg? 11 MR. TOWSLEY: Greg Towsley, Grundfos. To 12 address that, for us, under the VS8 and the HI, 13 they're probably the broader the manufacturers of that 14 type of pump. Then we only go to 125 horsepower. And 15 for 4 and 6-inch, we only go to 75 horsepower. 16 MR. BROOKMAN: So that's useful -- 17 MR. HUBER: In practice -- 18 MS. WILLIAMS: In practice if -- 19 (Simultaneous speaking.) 20 MR. TOWSLEY: Not speaking for everybody 21 else, I would assume everybody -- 22 MS. WILLIAMS: The same thing for a head.

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 203 1 MR. BROOKMAN: Wait a second, though. 2 Someone restate for me the implication of that. Is 3 that you or is it Al or who -- 4 MR. TOWSLEY: Greg. 5 MR. BROOKMAN: Greg, say it. So restate. 6 Based on your company's practice versus the EU, what 7 is the implication here? 8 MR. TOWSLEY: Since the pumps are similar in 9 design of what we're talking about in the vertical 10 multistage or the submersible multistage four and six11 inch, the design, physical design, characteristics are 12 not going to allow going much above those horsepower 13 sizes for those types of pumps anyway. 14 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. 15 MR. TOWSLEY: So, therefore, with not having 16 an upper limit, it's not possible to happen anyway, if 17 that makes sense. 18 MR. BROOKMAN: Yes. Yes. Okay. Joanna? 19 MS. MAUER: Joanna. Can you say anything 20 about the 450 feet of maximum -- 21 MR. BROOKMAN: Are you referring to 6, slide 22 6?

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 204 1 MS. MAUER: So I'm referring to slide 5. And 2 I think what Alison was saying is that the 459 feet of 3 maximum head is not a limitation on the EU standards 4 for vertical multistage and submersible multistage. 5 MS. WILLIAMS: Right. So this is Alison. 6 The maximum head only applies to the end suction pumps 7 in the EU. There is no maximum head for the 8 multistage pumps in the EU. So I guess the question 9 is in the same way that they wouldn't go up to 200 10 horsepower, would they also not go up past 459 feet of 11 head? 12 MR. TOWSLEY: The answer to that is yes. 13 MR. BROOKMAN: We really didn't answer your 14 question, did we, Joanna? 15 MR. TOWSLEY: I don't have an answer right 16 off. I will kind of look it up and give you our 17 perspective. 18 MS. MAUER: This is Joanna. Yes. I think 19 what's been a little bit confusing to me is we talk 20 about the HI scope is identical to EU standard, but 21 it's not really. So I think I just want to understand 22 what the differences are and whether those differences

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 205 1 make sense. And so I think it would be helpful to 2 understand, are we excluding pumps that are included 3 in the EU standards? And if so, why are we deciding 4 to do that I guess is my question? 5 MR. HUBER: I have not studied that. This is 6 Al Huber. I have not studied this enough to be sure. 7 And that's what our folks are doing now. But the 8 higher you go on head, the higher the horsepower. So 9 it could be that it's self- limiting, just as he was 10 describing on the other unit. So, you know, we would 11 just have to look at it to be sure they're looking at 12 it now. 13 MR. BROOKMAN: Chuck? 14 MR. POWERS: A couple of questions. I can't 15 see right now, but, Alison, you said you all came up 16 with some of these parameters on the EU? 17 MS. WILLIAMS: No, no, no. We're just 18 reporting what's in the EU legislation. 19 MR. POWERS: Okay. The only question I 20 have, -- help me out -- specific speed between 6 and 21 80 rpm? Charlie, that doesn't -- 22 MS. WILLIAMS: It's different units; right,

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 206 1 in the EU. 2 MR. POWERS: Okay. 3 MR. CAPPELLINO: Multiplied by 54 roughly. 4 MS. WILLIAMS: Yes, it's not really rpm. 5 MR. POWERS: I don't think it -- 6 MS. WILLIAMS: They call it rpm, but it's 7 not. 8 MR. CAPPELLINO: Right. 9 MS. WIDDER: Right. Those are the verbatim 10 words. Whether or not we agree with them, those are 11 the words. 12 MR. POWERS: You know, I think they give a 13 clarification of that on another page as well. 14 MS. WILLIAMS: I think I do have a 15 definition of what the specifics mean. 16 MR. POWERS: This by itself will not help 17 you, yes. 18 MS. WILLIAMS: No. And we just put this up 19 here so people could see the differences between the 20 EU and the U.S. or your recommendation because it came 21 up so much last time. 22 MR. BROOKMAN: Steve?

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 207 1 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Steve. So, again, the 2 1,450 and the 2,900, that's not analogous either, 3 right? 4 MS. WILLIAMS: Those are the nominal two5 pole and four-pole speeds at 50 hertz; right. 6 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Oh, 50 hertz? 7 MS. WILLIAMS: Yes. 8 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Okay. Got it. 9 MR. POWERS: And then the only other thing, 10 to your question earlier, is where they said, "nominal 11 4 and 6," we're now saying, "6 and smaller." So we 12 broadened it, went the other way. 13 MR. BROOKMAN: Additional questions, 14 comments on these proposed parameters? Greg? 15 MR. TOWSLEY: Greg Towsley, Grundfos. With 16 reference to MS-V, our products depending upon the 17 size can actually get up to -- on one side pushing 18 1,000 feet, most all sizes above 600 feet. And for 19 our MS-S 4 and 6-inch products, all of them have the 20 capability of going above 500 feet and actually going 21 over 1,000, 600 feet anyway. 22 MS. MAUER: This is Joanna. Thank you,

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 208 1 Greg. So it sounds like you're saying that with the 2 459 maximum head across the board, we would be 3 excluding virtually all of at least the vertical 4 multistage and submersible multistage pumps that your 5 company manufactures. 6 MR. TOWSLEY: I'm saying what products we 7 have that the head goes up to. 8 MR. HANDZEL: Yes, but there's a lot -- 9 (Simultaneous speaking.) 10 MR. HUBER: You are limited to 200 11 horsepower? 12 MR. TOWSLEY: No. 13 MS. WILLIAMS: What about at nine stages? 14 MR. HUBER: What are you limiting to 200 15 horsepower? What is that for? 16 MR. TOWSLEY: Greg Towsley, Grundfos. The 17 bumps in the head you were talking to, it doesn't even 18 reach 200 horsepower. 19 MR. HUBER: That's what I am asking. 20 MR. BROOKMAN: Alison has a question. 21 MS. WILLIAMS: If you looked at the three22 stage or the nine-stage that we're contemplating

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 209 1 requiring for testing, would those be -- I mean, are 2 these on like really high-stage pumps? 3 MR. TOWSLEY: Yes. Three-stage would for 4 sure be all within those parameters, nine- stage 5 probably. 6 MS. WILLIAMS: Okay. So the reason I ask 7 that is just like if that is the testing parameter, 8 even though technically the higher- stage pumps might 9 fall out of scope, they would essentially be covered; 10 right, because the same model with fewer stages would 11 be covered? 12 MR. HUBER: That is correct. That is 13 correct. 14 MS. WILLIAMS: Right? 15 MR. BROOKMAN: Did everybody follow that? I 16 just barely followed that. Alison, restate that. 17 What is your -- 18 MS. WILLIAMS: So my -- 19 MR. BROOKMAN: Your insight is? 20 MS. WILLIAMS: My theory is that the EU 21 requires for MS-V I think to test for three stages and 22 for MSS to test with nine stages. Technically the

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 210 1 regulation covers whatever is in scope, but if you are 2 testing and certifying only 3 stages and 9 stages and 3 those fall within scope, you are probably going to use 4 the exact same bowls in your 12-stage pumps. And, 5 therefore, even though they may or may not be 6 technically within the scope, they will still be 7 accruing energy savings. 8 MR. BROOKMAN: Al Huber? 9 MR. HUBER: Basically what you're trying to 10 point out here is that the hydraulic design is exactly 11 the same. 12 MS. WILLIAMS: Right. 13 MR. HUBER: You are just adding more stages 14 to it. 15 MR. POWERS: Exactly right. 16 MR. HUBER: So if you regulated the three 17 and a nine, you have a regulated pump. 18 MS. WILLIAMS: Yes. 19 MR. BROOKMAN: Chuck, add on? 20 MR. POWERS: Yes. I don't have appropriate 21 calculator in front of me, but I'd prefer -- I left it 22 in the car -- to go through all the measurements. But

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 211 1 Charlie can help me out here. In article II of the 2 EU, on the end suction, they go 140 meters. And when 3 you take that times 3.281, you get 459 feet exactly. 4 So what they're doing -- but that was at the 2,900 5 rpm. So what they were doing is taking the maximum 6 speed and the maximum head. 7 And they give another value at 1,450 at 90 8 meters. Again, they use nominal speed and all of 9 that. So where the 459 -- somebody was asking where 10 it came from. That's probably the closest definition 11 I can give. 12 MR. BROOKMAN: Lucas? 13 MR. ADIN: Well, I guess the question -- if 14 that is at 50 hertz speed, we have to consider whether 15 the head should be different or the pump with a 16 nominal speed of 60 hertz. How would that impact 17 that? 18 MR. BROOKMAN: Lucas, would you repeat the 19 question? 20 MR. ADIN: The question is whether it -- so, 21 as I understand what Chuck just said, the basis for 22 that 459 feet of head is like --

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 212 1 MR. POWERS: Well, it's a good question. I 2 called them for a second. And I realized what they 3 did is they say 150 kW, maximum head of 140. So we 4 capped that 200 horse. So, you know, it correlates by 5 definition, like we've talked about. 6 MR. ADIN: So it's related to the shaft 7 power and speed. 8 MR. HUBER: Yes. That is at BEP. And 9 they're not at BEP. 10 MR. POWERS: Right. 11 MR. HUBER: They're not regulated at BEP, 12 are they? 13 MR. POWERS: Right. No, they aren't. They 14 are across the curve. 15 MR. HUBER: Across the curve. 16 MR. POWERS: So the advantage you have is if 17 you have a pump that is BEP but you ask for data at -- 18 MR. HANDZEL: A hundred and ten to -- 19 MR. POWERS: -- 110, you know, you're going 20 to get the full range of that curve, which may go over 21 the 200. 22 MR. HUBER: But it still would be within

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 213 1 regulations. 2 MR. POWERS: Right. 3 MR. HUBER: It may run out to 225-250. But 4 it still falls within the regulations because its BEP 5 is at 200. So we broadened it in one sense. And you 6 may have narrowed it a little bit in some others, but 7 it is very close. 8 MR. ADIN: Okay. 9 MR. HUBER: And we did not put a limit on 10 1,800 rpm here. I mean, it's the same head. They did. 11 They cut it off. 12 MR. POWERS: They dropped it down; whereas, 13 it's -- 14 MR. HUBER: They dropped it down. We 15 didn't. We just left it at 459. So we broadened the 16 1,800. And it may be a little less on the 3,600 17 because the way we specified it at BEP, we're probably 18 not missing anything. 19 MR. BROOKMAN: Greg Case? 20 MR. CASE: Greg Case with HI. Yes. Since we 21 didn't drop it at 1,800, that actually brings in a 22 whole bunch of pumps that would have been excluded had

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Commerical and Industrial Pumps Working Group Meeting 03-04-2014

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 214 1 we dropped it because running at that smaller speed, 2 that brings in several pumps that would have been 3 larger, would have put out larger amounts of head for 4 that. At the four-pole speed, they're going to put 5 out one-quarter of that head. So you actually have -- 6 you have covered pumps much larger than the Europeans 7 have in this case. 8 MR. HUBER: Yes. 9 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Thank you. 10 Greg? 11 MR. TOWSLEY: Greg Towsley, Grundfos. Just a 12 clarification. We do have some nine-stage MS-S that 13 go over the 460 feet. 14 MR. CASE: But, again, they're covered under 15 the 1,800; right? Under 1,800, they'd still be 16 covered? 17 MR. BROOKMAN: Greg is nodding his head yes. 18 He says true, true. Okay. 19 Have we discussed this fully now? I see a 20 few heads. I'll ask it again. Have we discussed this 21 fully now? Joanna? 22 MS. MAUER: Joanna. Greg, can you just

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 215 1 expand on what you just said just so I understand? 2 MR. BROOKMAN: Louder, Joanna. 3 MS. MAUER: I'm asking Greg if he can 4 explain to me his comment about running at 1,800, that 5 it would be covered. 6 MR. CASE: Greg Case with HI. You're 7 actually getting pumps that would be of a larger size 8 than would be covered because since we're running them 9 at this lower speed, they are going to be below these 10 head and power limits. So you're getting several 11 pumps that would have been excluded from this had we 12 put in that 90-meter barrier that the EU put in. 13 You're getting several more pumps because running at 14 that lower speed, they're going to have the lower head 15 level. They're going to be one-quarter of the head 16 level. They're going to be one-eighth of the power 17 level. So you're going to have a fairly large number 18 of pumps that were included in this at this 459 head 19 level. 20 MR. HUBER: Basically the 90 is about 280 21 feet because if we had followed the EU exactly, we 22 would have put the same caveat in our 1,800, which

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Commerical and Industrial Pumps Working Group Meeting 03-04-2014

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 216 1 would have been 280, instead of 469. 2 MR. HANDZEL: All right. Joanna, it's 3 really crude. This is Mark Handzel from Xylem. So 4 what they're saying is if this was a 1,750 curve, you 5 know, if we were to follow the EU cutting it off, it 6 would have cut it off there. But we didn't use their 7 1,750 cut. We left it at the high-speed cut. So it 8 included the entire range of this curve. Okay? So 9 it's not exact to scale or anything but just a rough 10 way it would look. 11 MS. MAUER: This is Joanna. Thank you. 12 That's helpful. And now I'm just trying to 13 understand. 14 MR. HANDZEL: Okay. 15 MS. MAUER: So, Greg, you're saying you do 16 have some nine-pole? What are these? 17 MR. TOWSLEY: Nine-stage? 18 MS. MAUER: Nine-stage? 19 MR. TOWSLEY: Yes. 20 MS. MAUER: That are above the 459? 21 MR. TOWSLEY: Yes. For instance, we have a 22 six -- this is Greg Towsley with Grundfos. We have a

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 217 1 6-inch that with 9-stage at BEP is 520 feet. If we 2 were running it at 1,800 rpm, quickly 3

-- 4 MS. MAUER: This is Joanna. So you're 5 saying that the same pump you will offer at both 6 speeds? 7 MR. TOWSLEY: Yes. 8 MR. POWERS: The horsepower goes back. 9 MS. MAUER: Okay. But it's the same pump 10 model. 11 MR. TOWSLEY: Oh, yes, yes. 12 MR. HUBER: Yes, it's the same pump model. 13 So you have got to regulate it under the 1,800. So 14 it's still going to get in there. 15 MR. TOWSLEY: The horsepower goes by the 16 cube speed. 17 MR. BROOKMAN: Lucas? 18 MR. ADIN: Just as a point of clarification, 19 maybe for my own benefit, but these pumps that we're 20 considering, can they only run at both speeds or are 21 some just one and not the other or -- 22 MR. HUBER: Some do, and some don't. It

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 218 1 depends on how the designer designed it mechanically. 2 MR. ADIN: Yes. 3 MR. HUBER: And I assume from what Greg has 4 said, that they design theirs mechanically so they run 5 at both speeds. 6 MR. ADIN: Right. 7 MR. HUBER: And we do that on some types of 8 pumps, and some types of pumps we do not do that. 9 MR. POWERS: It becomes -- this is Chuck -- 10 more of a factor on the peripheral velocity and the 11 impellers, which is more of a factor. And they get 12 bigger. They get up to larger diameters. There is 13 what we call tip speed. And most manufacturers, 14 designers will say their tip speed on a material like 15 bronze will be 70 feet per second. Stainlesses will 16 be 80. And then if you get into some really fancy 17 stuff, like you do with the Navy, it will go even 18 higher. But that's all regulated. 19 MR. BROOKMAN: So that was just Chuck. And 20 prior to that was Al. Now Charlie? 21 MR. CAPPELLINO: Charlie Cappellino, ITT. 22 So I think the situation is pumps that are designed to

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 219 1 operate at 3,600 rpm can always operate at 1,780 rpm - 2

- 3 MR. HUBER: That is correct. 4 MR. CAPPELLINO: -- designed for 2-pole and 5 one at 4-pole. The converse is not always the case. 6 MR. HUBER: That's correct. 7 MR. CAPPELLINO: The pump is designed to 8 operate at 4-pole speeds for 1,780 rpm. They cannot 9 always be run at the 2-pole or 3 -- 10 MR. BROOKMAN: Thank you, Charlie. 11 Now to Greg? 12 MR. TOWSLEY: Greg Towsley, Grundfos. I 13 think in some cases, we have some pumps at actually 14 3,600 rpm, 1,800 rpm, and all the way down to 1,200 15 rpm possibly. But they have that high design point. 16 And, as Chuck said, you start running that same pump 17 at 1,200 rpm. You have a really big pump running 18 really slow, which you can actually buy a smaller pump 19 that's less expensive, maybe more efficient. 20 MR. HUBER: That's true. 21 MR. POWERS: Yes, right. There are two 22 factors.

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 220 1 MR. BROOKMAN: Chuck? 2 MR. POWERS: There are hydraulic factors, 3 and there are mechanical. So, even if you take 4 something and want to run it faster, maybe 5 hydraulically it's okay, but if you have roller 6 bearings, the end suction or sleeve bearing or 7 whatever, their limitations are going to change. And 8 then you run into issues. 9 MR. HUBER: Yes. 10 MR. POWERS: L over d. Yes. 11 MR. HUBER: It just depends on the type of 12 pump, but the ones that are in scope today, I mean, if 13 we were just looking at the HI scope, actually, with 14 the parameters we have given, we have included more 15 pumps than the EU did. 16 MR. BROOKMAN: Louis? 17 MR. HUBER: By the way, we did it. 18 MR. STARR: So the best efficiency point is 19 taken at each one of the speeds. So if it's 1,200, 20 it's the best efficiency point at that point. And 21 then if you do it at 18, it's rated at the speeds. 22 MR. POWERS: And the reason is because when

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 221 1 you do slow them down, the best efficiency point 2 doesn't actually track to the -- it is tracked to the 3 linear, straight linear, curve on the speed; right? 4 MR. STARR: Is that the static head question 5 or is that something else? In other words, there was 6 static head. It doesn't come back down. 7 MR. POWERS: Right. So, in other words, 8 what we're saying, if you go by BEP, you're going to 9 get the best, rather than do it by the straight speed 10 factors. 11 MR. STARR: Okay. 12 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay? Joanna? 13 MS. MAUER: Charlie, so you said a pump that 14 is designed to operate at 3,600 can always operate at 15 a lower speed. 16 MR. CASE: At 17, yes, the next speed down. 17 MS. MAUER: I guess what I am trying to 18 understand, so a pumps that's designed to operate at 19 3,600, would it have to be certified at the lower 20 speed, too, or -- 21 MR. ADIN: So this is Lucas. I think that's 22 something we'll have to figure out maybe a little bit

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Commerical and Industrial Pumps Working Group Meeting 03-04-2014

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 222 1 farther down the line because we're going to have to 2 determine at which speed that particular pump is going 3 to be subject to the standard. That's where we're at 4 a standard, but is that standard applicable at 3,600 5 or at 1,800 or -- 6 MS. MAUER: Right. 7 MR. ADIN: I don't know that we're figuring 8 that out today. 9 MS. MAUER: So this is Joanna. Yes. I 10 guess I'm just wondering, is it important for this 11 question of does it make sense to have the maximum 12 head apply to all types of pumps, including the 13 multistage pumps? 14 MR. BROOKMAN: Al? 15 MR. HUBER: Al Huber, Patterson. You know, 16 I think that as an industry, if you want to go back to 17 the EU definitions, we would be more than happy to. 18 If you do that, then you're going to have less pumps 19 than what you are covering in your scope. If you'd 20 like to do that, we would be more than happy to do it. 21 MS. MAUER: So this is Joanna. I'm not 22 trying to suggest that. I just want to understand,

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 223 1 are we excluding pumps that are included in the EU 2 standard? If we are, I just want to understand. 3 MR. HUBER: No. For the HI models we're 4 discussing, for the, for lack of a better term, Lot 5 11. We're including more pumps than they are. 6 MS. MAUER: This is Joanna. And that also 7 applies to the vertical multistage and submersible 8 multistage categories? 9 MR. HUBER: That applies to whatever is up 10 here. 11 MS. WILLIAMS: So this is Alison. Isn't 12 what's actually happening is you're covering more end 13 suction pumps, but potentially we're covering fewer 14 multistage pumps? 15 MR. HUBER: No, no. 16 MS. WILLIAMS: No? 17 MR. HUBER: That's not what I said. 18 MS. WILLIAMS: I know that's not what you 19 said. 20 MR. HUBER: If you -- 21 MS. WILLIAMS: I am just double checking. 22 MR. BROOKMAN: Al Huber?

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 224 1 MR. HUBER: I am going back to what Greg 2 said. He makes those pumps for both 1,800 and 36. 3 It's the same hydraulic model. So if he certifies it 4 at 1,800, it's still the same certified pump that he's 5 going to operate at 3,600. And we did not, and we did 6 not, put a limitation on the head the way that the EU 7 did and lowered it. We kept it the same. So, 8 therefore, you are actually gaining more in every 9 category that's up there than you would have if we 10 went by the EU model. That's why I just said if you 11 guys want to go to the EU model, we're happy to do it. 12 MS. WILLIAMS: So this is Alison. Thank 13 you. I am just trying to clarify, I think, what she 14 is getting at; right, and what Lucas is talking about, 15 is this other issue of do you -- and the EU people are 16 certifying pumps at both 1,800 and 3,600 speeds. And 17 I don't know if it's been determined here it is 18 actually how that will work. And so what you're 19 saying is true if that is how it happens here, but 20 since that hasn't been flushed out, there's a little 21 bit of sort of ambiguity, I think. 22 So I agree with what you're saying for that

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 225 1 structure. 2 MR. BROOKMAN: Greg Case? 3 MR. CASE: Greg Case, HI. The other part of 4 this is we're supposedly concentrating on off-the5 shelf equipment here and not engineered product, where 6 it's engineered for a specific application. If you 7 get beyond these definitions, and you start getting 8 into creeping into the engineered product realm, which 9 is going to be designed to a spec by the end user or 10 whatever his firm is -- so we have really covered 11 most, the broad spectrum, of catalog pumps out there 12 is what we're trying to say, I guess. 13 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. 14 MS. MAUER: This is Joanna. Greg, are you 15 saying that the EU standards cover pumps that are not 16 catalog pumps or -- 17 MR. CASE: No. They were looking for 18 catalog pumps, too. But, as we said, they have 19 reduced the number of multistage pumps because they 20 did reduce that head level. 21 MS. MAUER: This is Joanna. On the 22 multistage pumps in the EU, there is no head limit;

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 226 1 right? 2 MS. WILLIAMS: They've only reduced the 3 singles, the end suction pumps. 4 MR. POWERS: Well, yes. Chuck Powers. There 5 are arguments over that in different groups. This 6 table of definitions starts with number 1 and is 7 consecutive as you go down through it. Right? So the 8 first thing they say is they get into the horsepower 9 because they don't say "horsepower" down below on the 10 submersibles. 11 MR. BROOKMAN: You are referring to EU 12 definitions? 13 MR. POWERS: Yes, the EUs where she was 14 clarifying that. She is right in all the statements 15 except for the red because, you know, the way they 16 were trying to define is that you start here and they 17 work their way through all the end suctions. Then 18 they get down to vertical. They say, "Well, the 19 verticals have a 25 bar because all the other ones are 20 16 bar." That's the working pressure; right? And 21 then they get into the other factors; right? 22 MS. WILLIAMS: Yes. So right. I am

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 227 1 actually trying to pull up the EU regulation, but I am 2 pretty confident that these are related to -- that it 3 is not additive; right? There are some, like the 4 clean water between -10 and 120 clearly applies to 5 everything in the EU legislation. But these ones 6 clearly apply to -- 7 MR. POWERS: I'm going by article II. You're 8 talking about article I. Article II starts out with 9 the product and worked it way down. They are 10 consecutively -- 11 MS. MAUER: Chuck, this is Joanna. But the 12 150-kilowatt that's in the definition for end suction 13 water pump, not the definition for water pump. 14 MR. POWERS: Yes. I realize that, but they 15 start out with each one of those defining it. And then 16 they say if something changes, like 16 bar, down 17 below, it goes to 25 bar. And then they don't mention 18 the 25 bar of number 9, which is submersible because 19 it's already stated above it. Do you see what I'm 20 saying? So as you go, you either go up in range or 21 change. That's the way 22

--

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 228 1 MR. HUBER: That's the way they wrote it. 2 MR. POWERS: That's the way they wrote it. 3 And if you go to the meetings, you go to the 4 clarifications -- 5 MS. MAUER: It's not clear to me, but maybe 6 it's not -- 7 MR. POWERS: No. At first, I was puzzled, 8 too. And then there's other excerpts that read how 9 that works and how they try to define it. And that's 10 why when you put in red there "No head or power." 11 There is no flow in power. Power is the definition. 12 MS. WILLIAMS: So you're looking at article 13 I? 14 MR. POWERS: Article I is what you mentioned 15 about the water pumps, -- 16 MS. WILLIAMS: Okay. 17 MR. POWERS: -- the temperatures, and that. 18 But then you go to article II. They start out the 19 definitions independent. So article I applies to 20 everything; right? Then they start at definitions, 21 and they work it down. 22 MS. WILLIAMS: Okay. So article I only

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 229 1 talks about the -10 to 100-degree temperatures. Water 2 pumps designed only for firefighting applications, 3 displacement pumps, and self-priming pumps. 4 And then article II does have the 5 definitions. And all of these things right here are 6 in the definition for end suction water pump. 7 MR. POWERS: Right. No argument. And as 8 you work down, you will notice they don't restate some 9 of the factors above. Like they say 25 bar. And then 10 you go down to the submersibles, there's no bar rating 11 because they stated it in the previous one. 12 MS. WILLIAMS: Yes. I mean, the way I read 13 this is that those are completely separate. 14 MR. POWERS: When you go to the meetings and 15 you read all of the subscripts and the other 16 definitions to it that -- I mean, you can go back five 17 years with the EU. 18 MR. BROOKMAN: They are inclusive. 19 MR. POWERS: And they are inclusive. 20 MS. MAUER: It feels like if they wanted to 21 be inclusive, they would have said -- 22 MR. POWERS: They're trying to say you

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 230 1

-- 2 MS. WILLIAMS: They want to put them in 3 article 1 if they applied to everything, I think. So 4 okay. Regardless, perhaps what is going on in the EU 5 is that they are interpreting the regulation more 6 broadly than one would if you just read the 7 regulation. So that's one thing; right? 8 MR. POWERS: When you say, "more broadly," 9 we have stuff that we're broader than they are. 10 MS. WILLIAMS: Yes. And so, I mean, maybe 11 this is -- it seems like the understanding of what the 12 EU is doing is a little bit broader than what their 13 scope actually is in the legislation. 14 I don't know that -- I mean, obviously I 15 don't have a vote here. And I don't particularly care 16 that much what happens. I think that to me, it seems 17 like the only remaining issue is just some people 18 trying to understand what is going on with the 19 multistage pumps. And it is a little difficult to 20 answer without knowing how you are going to certify 21 your pump, at what speed. And, as far as I 22 understand, that is the only thing that is sort of

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 231 1 still at question here. 2 MR. BROOKMAN: Where are we with this 3 question? It seems like -- I am not sure where we are 4 at this moment. Gary Fernstrom? 5 MR. FERNSTROM: This is Gary. Let's take a 6 vote. 7 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. 8 MR. FERNSTROM: We have got to wait for 9 Louis to come back, I guess, but -- 10 MR. BROOKMAN: Joanna? 11 MS. MAUER: This is Joanna. I would prefer 12 not to take a vote until we understand or I understand 13 what we're voting on. And I don't. 14 MR. BROOKMAN: Well, go ahead, Lucas. 15 MR. ADIN: It seems like Joanna might have 16 had some more. When you asked that question, what 17 we're voting on, do you mean as far as these 18 parameters or what they apply to or -- 19 MS. MAUER: This is Joanna. Maybe I should 20 rephrase this, say, understand what these parameters, 21 which pumps they would cover and not cover. And it 22 seems like on the multistage pumps, that we don't

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 232 1 necessarily have a clear answer right now. 2 MR. HUBER: Well, I think it -- 3 MR. BROOKMAN: Al Huber? 4 MR. HUBER: At least from what Greg said -- 5 I don't want to put words in his mouth, but he says 6 his pumps -- it's the same thing for all of us who 7 make those pumps, the two which are in question now -- 8 that he's making them at 1,800 and 3,600. It's the 9 same hydraulic design. 10 If you're concerned about hydraulic 11 efficiency -- and I assume that you are -- if you test 12 it at the 1,800, it's going to be the same thing at 13 3,600. I mean, hydraulic design is not changing. 14 MS. MAUER: So this is Joanna. And that's 15 helpful. I think what Lucas was saying is that hasn't 16 been determined how pumps will be tested and will they 17 have to be tested at 3,600 or I should say will they 18 have -- I think I am mixing this up -- will they have 19 to be tested at 1,800 if they are designed for 3,600? 20 And that would seem to affect whether they do fall in 21 the scope of coverage or not. 22 MR. POWERS: I think the data collection, we

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Commerical and Industrial Pumps Working Group Meeting 03-04-2014

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 233 1 had to get data at the -- 2 MR. HUBER: Both speeds. 3 MR. POWERS: -- in both speeds, yes. 4 MR. ADIN: So yes. The way that I interpret 5 this is a pump, if it's designed to be operated at 6 either or both speeds, then it's covered. So you 7 would still need to determine which speed you use for 8 the rating condition for that pump for establishing a 9 rating and for comparing its efficiency to a standard. 10 But it wouldn't preclude it from being covered within 11 the scope of the standards. Does that clarify at all 12 what you're asking? 13 MR. BROOKMAN: Greg? 14 MR. TOWSLEY: Greg Towsley. Maybe as an 15 interpretation, Joanna, if the rulemaking came out 16 with the parameters that HI has proposed and we had a 17 pump that was, say, at 3,600 and was outside the 18 parameters, if we wanted to sell it or propose to sell 19 it or published a curve at 1,800 rpm, we would 20 interpret that we would have to test it, even though 21 at 3,600, it fell outside of it. So I would interpret 22 that we would have to go ahead and test it and be

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 234 1 proposed, even though outside at 3,600, it wouldn't. 2 So it would still get the test and whatever to meet 3 the DOE standards, even though at 3,600 rpm, we would 4

-- 5 MS. MAUER: Maybe I can try to restate what 6 you said, Lucas, that if it were -- so if it fell 7 outside the scope at 3,600 and that's in the test 8 procedure specified that it be tested at 3,600 but -- 9 MR. ADIN: No. 10 MR. BROOKMAN: Lucas? 11 MR. ADIN: The way I'm thinking about this - 12 - and if others at the table have different ideas 13 about it, I am sure you will speak up -- if a pump can 14 be operated at 3,600 and 1,800 and it falls outside of 15 the scope at one of the speeds, it is still in scope 16 because at the other speed, it is within scope; right? 17 MR. HUBER: Yes. 18 MR. ADIN: And so we would have to create a 19 rating condition at that speed for that pump. 20 Now, if it's within scope at both speeds, we 21 still have to choose whether it will be rated at one 22 or both or whatever, but the point is that it's still

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 235 1 within scope. 2 MS. MAUER: Okay. 3 MR. ADIN: Does that help? 4 MS. MAUER: That is helpful. So I think the 5 key point capable of being operated at a given speed - 6

- 7 MR. ADIN: That's essentially the intent. 8 MR. BROOKMAN: Al Huber? 9 MR. HUBER: Al Huber, Patterson. It's the 10 same thing with a 1,200 rpm. It's why we didn't 11 report that back to Navigant is that we are going to 12 be marking those pumps at 1,800 and they're going to 13 be certified at 1,800. It's the same design, the same 14 principle. It's the same design, hydraulic design, 15 we're using for 1,200. So if we do anything to improve 16 the efficiency at 1,800, you automatically get that 17 improvement for the 1,200. And, you know, you don't 18 have to regulate it or you don't have to -- because 19 it's already regulated. The same thing applies here 20 except we're going in the opposite direction, 21 basically. 22 MR. BROOKMAN: Let's take a vote. Shall we

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Commerical and Industrial Pumps Working Group Meeting 03-04-2014

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 236 1 vote? Let's do it. 2 MR. POWERS: Question? 3 MR. BROOKMAN: Chuck? 4 MR. HUBER: Let's take a vote. 5 MR. POWERS: We're voting on a TBD? 6 MS. WILLIAMS: No. We're voting on the 7 items listed "OK - March 4th." 8 MALE SPEAKER: Everything but clean water. 9 MR. HUBER: Everything but clean water? 10 MR. POWERS: So we're voting on the left 11 column of "ok"? 12 MS. WILLIAMS: Yes. 13 MR. POWERS: Instead of three-fourths? 14 Anyway, I think that's three-quarters. So you put the 15 actual -- 16 MR. ADIN: And, just to clarify again -- 17 this is Lucas -- we're voting on these parameters. 18 Voting on these parameters means they would apply to - 19

- 20 MR. POWERS: HI's proposal. 21 MR. HUBER: She's got it down there. 22 MR. ADIN: Right. We would still need to

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 237 1 just make sure it's clear for everyone here. We would 2 still need to make potentially decisions about any 3 other pumps that are excluded. 4 MR. BROOKMAN: Yes. As the header says, "HI 5 standards parameter proposal for HI- recommended pumps 6 only," so just to reinforce what Lucas just said. 7 Steve? 8 MR. ROSENSTOCK: This is the first subset of 9 covered pumps? Is that another way to say it? 10 MS. WILLIAMS: Well, there has not been a 11 vote yet. 12 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Right. 13 MR. BROOKMAN: These would be the parameters 14 are characterized as a first subset. Yes. I guess it 15 would be that. Yes. 16 So I'm going to just read them so they are 17 in the record, "Impeller diameter, 1 to 200 hp - shaft 18 power at BEP, 25 gpm and greater at BEP, 459 of head 19 maximum at BEP, design temperature range from -10 to 20 120 degrees C, pumps designed for nominal 3,600 or 21 1,800 rpm drivers, at 6 inches or smaller bowl 22 diameter." That's what we're considering here. I'm

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Commerical and Industrial Pumps Working Group Meeting 03-04-2014

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 238 1 about to do this. Are you ready? All those in favor 2 of those seven parameters being accepted by the 3 Working Group as the first subset, as Steve says, 4 raise your hand. 5 (Show of hands.) 6 MR. BROOKMAN: So all persons in the room 7 have accepted this proposal. Meg, are you still with 8 us? 9 MS. WALTNER: Yes. And I accept, too. 10 MR. BROOKMAN: And you are a yes also. So we 11 have once again 15 yeses. And Tom Eckman is in 12 absentia. So we'll list him as being an abstention. 13 And then he can change his vote. He can vote with us 14 or I guess whatever he wishes to do later. 15 So that was a lot of work. We covered a lot 16 of ground there. Let's applaud. 17 (Applause.) 18 MR. BROOKMAN: I think maybe we should take 19 a break. And I think that the little coffee shop, 20 which is on the sixth floor on the other side of this 21 corridor, is open until 3:00 or maybe even 4:00. So 22 if anybody wants to follow me up there, all you do is

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Commerical and Industrial Pumps Working Group Meeting 03-04-2014

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 239 1 climb the stairs. We're on 4. Climb the stairs until 2 6. This is a big vertical -- 3 MS. KOHL: There's a bigger snack bar on the 4 4th floor. 5 MR. BROOKMAN: On the 4th floor? 6 MS. KOHL: Yes. Yes. It's on the other 7 side. 8 MR. BROOKMAN: There is? 9 MS. KOHL: Yes. 10 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. 11 MR. HUBER: Where? Which direction? 12 MR. BROOKMAN: You mean across the -- 13 MR. HUBER: Which way or -- 14 MS. KOHL: If you go -- 15 MR. BROOKMAN: Across the bridge. 16 MS. KOHL: We've got A and B corridor over 17 here. If you go across that glass bridge and then 18 kind of go around, it's on the far side. 19 MR. BROOKMAN: That's why I was saying stick 20 with me. We'll stay close. Okay? 21 It's now almost 2:40. We'll resume at 2:55. 22 Okay? Sixth floor, just one corridor over.

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Commerical and Industrial Pumps Working Group Meeting 03-04-2014

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 240 1 (Off the record.) 2 (On the record.) 3 MR. BROOKMAN: I was just talking with 4 Alison about what we should do next. And she said 5 that we didn't do a final vote on the definitions, the 6 clarifications that Chuck provided earlier. We did 7 sort of a nominal -- may I use that word "vote"? -- on 8 fire pumps, Navy pumps, and nuclear pumps. And we 9 were clear. It was offered that marine pumps should 10 not be on the exclusions list. But apparently I 11 neglected to do kind of a final consensus vote on 12 those three items, which I think are fully -- 13 MS. WILLIAMS: Fire pumps we already voted 14 on. 15 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. So we just -- 16 MS. WILLIAMS: We just slightly modified the 17 definition, which I think is great. 18 MR. BROOKMAN: So, then, both Navy pumps and 19 nuclear pumps I'd like to at this point have a vote on 20 those to make sure these items would be on the 21 exclusions list and that the recommended language, 22 which Alison has been editing up here, that everybody

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 241 1 is okay with that. 2 And, Meg, I don't know whether you were here 3 for that discussion this morning or not. 4 MS. MAUER: This is Joanna. Meg let me know 5 she was going to be a little bit late coming back from 6

-- 7 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. You all are doing a 8 good job of keeping up with each other. I appreciate 9 that. Gary? 10 MR. FERNSTROM: So this is Gary. We're 11 going to be excluding any pump that glows in the dark? 12 MALE SPEAKER: It hasn't been added yet, but 13 we can. 14 MR. HUBER: We can if you would like, Gary. 15 MR. BROOKMAN: Day-Glo pumps. So let me 16 call the question. We discussed, as I said, 17 completely fire pumps, Navy pumps, and nuclear pumps. 18 Alison says that we have already voted to exclude fire 19 pumps. We just did clarification on how it should be 20 specified or how it should be described here. 21 So let me ask you now. All of those in 22 favor of excluding Navy pumps and nuclear pumps,

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 242 1 please do so by raising your hands. 2 (Show of hands.) 3 MR. BROOKMAN: And I am catching my eyes 4 around the room. All members present wish to exclude 5 -- and I guess we'll have to get with Meg when she 6 gets back in the room. Okay? So that's 14? 7 Fourteen. We've got that? 8 So what should we do next? We have really 9 made tremendous progress in three-quarters of a day. 10 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Doug? 11 MR. BROOKMAN: Yes, Steve? 12 MR. ROSENSTOCK: To follow along with Gary, 13 if there is a way to add another "to be determined" -- 14 what was the phrase of your pump that might be 15 excluded from this? Residential pool pump or how 16 would you -- 17 MR. FERNSTROM: Well, Lucas, I don't know 18 that that would do it. If we were to add residential 19 pool pumps to the exclusion, that would simply mean 20 that that is not going to be regulated. But it's 21 still a covered product. 22 MR. ADIN: Yes.

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 243 1 MR. FERNSTROM: And the states are still 2 preempted. So that wouldn't necessarily help us; 3 right? 4 MR. ADIN: It wouldn't help with the 5 situation that you were concerned about specifically 6 regarding residential. That's right. So it would 7 exclude it form the scope of the standards but not -- 8 MR. FERNSTROM: So maybe what we ought to do 9 is we don't have to take an action on that, but an 10 alternative might be to as we proceed specifically 11 include pool pumps. 12 MR. BROOKMAN: Well, right now it's included 13 since we haven't excluded it yet. 14 MR. FERNSTROM: Well, that's right, but, I 15 mean, you know, analyze, you know, set some rule for 16 pool pumps. 17 MR. BROOKMAN: Right. So I'll make a 18 notation about that. We won't forget about it. 19 Al? 20 MR. HUBER: I want to ask Gary a question 21 about pool pumps because, you know, I see larger city 22 folks and that kind of stuff just end suction pumps,

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Commerical and Industrial Pumps Working Group Meeting 03-04-2014

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 244 1 which are already regulated. Wouldn't it be regulated 2 under end suction pumps? 3 MR. FERNSTROM: No. The California 4 regulation addresses single-phase pool pumps under 5 five horsepower, which are typically applied for 6 residential and small commercial pools. 7 MR. HUBER: Yes, but the -- 8 MR. FERNSTROM: And the two-speed, multi9 speed requirement specifically applies to residential 10 pools. It's application-sensitive. So that is 11 problematic, but that is what it does. 12 MR. BROOKMAN: Lucas? 13 MR. ADIN: These are not specific to the 14 applications. 15 MR. FERNSTROM: I know. Right. 16 MR. HUBER: But I don't think, Gary, that 17 these exclude it either now that I'm thinking about it 18 because you've got a control. You can consider your 19 piece a part of the control, couldn't you? 20 MR. FERNSTROM: Well, -- 21 MR. BROOKMAN: That's Al Huber. And now 22 back to Gary. Go ahead.

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 245 1 MR. HUBER: I'm sorry. I'm sorry. 2 MR. FERNSTROM: This is Gary. The problem 3 is that whatever state regulations there are that 4 regulate residential pool pumps will be preempted by 5 the scope of this regulation. So they'll have to be 6 rewritten around the motors that are associated with 7 these pumps, rather than the pumps. And the figure of 8 merit of performance has to do with the pump, not the 9 motor. So it's going to be really, really challenging 10 to avoid just wiping out all of those state 11 regulations, which is what we have just done. 12 MR. BROOKMAN: Let me see. So Joanna first? 13 MS. MAUER: This is Joanna. My 14 understanding is that most, if not all, pool pumps are 15 self-priming. Is that correct? 16 MR. FERNSTROM: Yes. 17 MR. HUBER: They would be eliminated. 18 MS. MAUER: They would be excluded. So if 19 we do want to include them -- 20 MR. HUBER: Not all. 21 MR. LIN: Not all. 22 MS. MAUER: -- we would I think want to

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Commerical and Industrial Pumps Working Group Meeting 03-04-2014

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 246 1 revisit excluding self-priming pumps. 2 MR. BROOKMAN: It's something we could 3 consider. 4 Paul Lin? 5 MR. LIN: Maybe it's the question to DOE 6 here that most of the applications that Gary is 7 concerned about specifically on the residential side, 8 this particular rulemaking, is on the commercial and 9 industrial. Does that matter? 10 MR. ADIN: It doesn't matter. No. From the 11 DOE's standpoint, a pump is a pump, regardless of 12 whether it's used in a commercial or a residential 13 setting. And to the extent we exclude any pumps based 14 on their characteristics and operating parameters -- 15 MR. BROOKMAN: Steve Rosenstock is giving us 16 a quizzical look. Go ahead. 17 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Steve Rosenstock, EEI. Just 18 again to kind of follow up the conversation, 19 especially for what Albert was saying, a commercial 20 pool pump for a hotel would be covered under this 21 scope right now, would it not? 22 MR. FERNSTROM: If it were a three-phase

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Commerical and Industrial Pumps Working Group Meeting 03-04-2014

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 247 1 pump -- 2 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Three-phase. That's one. 3 Especially for a three-phase -- 4 MR. HUBER: We don't know about those. 5 MALE SPEAKER: We don't know anything about 6 three-phase. 7 MR. HUBER: Excuse me. 8 MR. BROOKMAN: Al Huber? 9 MR. HUBER: We don't know describe whether 10 or not it is single or three-phase in this. 11 MR. FERNSTROM: A big pump in a big hotel 12 would be covered because it's a pump. It's probably 13 sold separate from the motor. 14 MR. HUBER: Well, it may or may not be. It 15 may or may not be, but the phase doesn't matter. 16 MR. FERNSTROM: Right. So the big pumps are 17 covered. 18 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Can I rephrase? I'm sorry. 19 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Steve wasn't finished. 20 Steve? 21 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Let me rephrase. A 22 commercial -- I'll say a hotel. A commercial pool

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 248 1 pump right now is not excluded from the scope. You 2 know, is that correct? 3 MR. FERNSTROM: Right. 4 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Okay. 5 MS. WILLIAMS: So unless it is excluded by 6 other parameters, such as self-priming -- 7 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Right. 8 MS. WILLIAMS: So we're saying that the pool 9 pumps would fall into one of the end suction category. 10 MR. HUBER: The commercial ones were -- 11 MS. WILLIAMS: Would, yes. But if they were 12 self-priming, then as of now they were -- 13 MR. ROSENSTOCK: And I just want to follow 14 up. That's okay with California. There are no issues 15 there. 16 MR. FERNSTROM: Yes. California doesn't 17 regulate commercial pools -- 18 MR. ROSENSTOCK: I just wanted to get that 19 clarification. 20 MR. FERNSTROM: -- or motors. 21 MR. BROOKMAN: Chuck? 22 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Thank you.

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 249 1 MR. POWERS: So if I can understand? I have 2 heard several things. You mentioned phase, single3 phase, three-phase. Okay? Under this parameter, like 4 Al was saying, it would be covered, whether it was 5 single-phased. Okay? 6 Number two, on efficiency, one of the areas 7 that the pool pumps have gone a long way to do it, the 8 small one ones, including the larger ones, end 9 suctions, they have gone to positive materials. Okay? 10 They didn't do it because of efficiency at first, but 11 they did it because of chlorine. You know, now we've 12 got saltwater pools. And it behooves itself. So 13 that, in itself, they have gone a long way. 14 Third, today two or three of the top players 15 do a VFD drive with the motor integral to the pump all 16 combined. Some of them are self- priming. Some of 17 them aren't on the gradient level where they are 18 sitting from the pool house. But they aren't only end 19 suctions. There's other products to get out their 20 basis because when you call pool pumps, I have heard 21 some people go over to aquariums and Sea World and you 22 name it. And there's a whole level of other products

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 250 1 and all of that. 2 MR. FERNSTROM: Well, these are swimming 3 pools for people. So they're mostly end suction 4

-- 5 MR. POWERS: The same companies build both; 6 right? 7 MR. FERNSTROM: Yes. So I'm agreeing with 8 everything you're saying, too. 9 MR. POWERS: Okay. So the point is the way 10 the definition that we have been voting on so far will 11 except for less than one horse, which there is some on 12 that. It's some really small ones. But even some 13 individual pool pumps, they're one-horsepower, one and 14 a half maybe, things like that, kind of that big; 15 right? So I think we're covered -- okay? -- unless 16 you want to have something specific; right? Nothing 17 leaves it out. 18 MR. FERNSTROM: So far as the pump head is 19 concerned, yes, but the California regulations require 20 two, multi, or variable-speed for pumps greater than 21 one total horsepower. And I think this may be able to 22 be addressed through a motors regulation for motors

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 251 1 going on pumps because, really, that's the thing we 2 would want to affect is to get the variable-speed 3 capability or two- speed capability. 4 MR. POWERS: Okay. This is Chuck again. But 5 that is covered here with the pump that we call bare 6 pump plus driver plus -- it said any -- I can't 7 remember. 8 MR. FERNSTROM: It is, but we're not sure 9 how we're going to be setting regulations for pumps 10 with motors yet. Are we, Lucas? 11 MS. MAUER: This is Joanna. If they are 12 self-priming, then they are actually not included in 13 what we have talked about so far. 14 MR. HUBER: That is -- 15 MR. POWERS: But not all are self- priming. 16 They have a basket strainer. They don't necessarily 17 have self-priming. 18 MALE SPEAKER: That's right. It's a whole 19 different -- 20 MR. HUBER: A whole different deal. 21 MS. MAUER: Okay. Maybe they're -- 22 MR. HUBER: The lot is many --

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 252 1 (Simultaneous conversation.) 2 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay, folks. Sorry. Please 3 let's be a little more disciplined. We're getting 4 kind of sloppy here. 5 MR. POWERS: Yes. Okay. 6 MR. BROOKMAN: For the record, we want to 7 have a good, complete record. Chuck? 8 MR. POWERS: Okay. My understanding, Gary - 9 - and I've had it for a long time, and we got into, 10 company, with pool pumps and stuff like that. Well, 11 I'll back up. One is that there are single and 12 triple-phased. Secondly, a lot of them are composite. 13 Thirdly, in my opinion, the ones I've seen and the 14 ones we have been involved in, very few of them are 15 actually self-primers. 16 MR. FERNSTROM: Well, the ones that we 17 regulate are virtually all self-priming. 18 MR. POWERS: Really? 19 MR. FERNSTROM: I mean, I don't know how you 20 define self-priming, but it will lift the water. 21 MR. POWERS: Does it have what's called a 22 bucket in front of it, like a regular pump but now

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 253 1 almost like a trashcan, what they call trashcan? 2 MR. FERNSTROM: Yes. They all have a leaf 3 strainer in front of them. 4 MR. POWERS: Yes. That's different than 5

-- 6 MALE SPEAKER: That's different than self7 priming. 8 MR. POWERS: That's different than self9 priming. 10 MR. HUBER: That's not self -- 11 MR. POWERS: That's not self-priming. 12 MR. FERNSTROM: This is Gary. You mean your 13 definition of self-priming does not cover the 14 situation where the pump, in effect, lifts the water 15 from a lower point up to the suction in order to get 16 the water flowing through the loop. All these pumps 17 have the capability of creating a vacuum and using the 18 pressure of the atmosphere to push the water up into 19 their suction. 20 MR. BROOKMAN: Al Huber and then to Greg. 21 MR. HUBER: Many, many of the pumps that we 22 manufacture today are not self-priming, but they will

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 254 1 lift water. 2 MR. FERNSTROM: Okay. I learned something. 3 Thank you. 4 MR. HUBER: Well, if you take a fire pump, 5 it has to lift 15 feet at 150 percent of its rated 6 flow. 7 MR. FERNSTROM: So what -- 8 MR. HUBER: So let me finish this so you'll 9 understand what a self-primer is. We consider a self10 primer -- and most of them have a flat built into it 11 at an angle, Gary, that blocks the body of the pump 12 off so it holds the water inside it. Okay? That's 13 what we consider a self- primer. And so when you do 14 that, you can start the pump back up again. It has 15 water in it, and it creates that vacuum. And then it 16 lifts the water. That is self-priming. 17 You know, I am owned by a self-priming 18 company. Okay? And I tease them all the time that 19 there is no such thing as self-priming because you 20 have to prime it the first time. It's just a fact. 21 Okay? 22 But that's what a self-primer is. And

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 255 1 that's the way it operates. And that's what we're 2 talking about when we talk about self-primer. 3 Now, I own a pool, too. I had one just like 4 you're talking about. It was an end suction pump with 5 a basket strainer on the front of it. That's not a 6 self-primer. 7 MR. FERNSTROM: Okay. This is Gary. Thank 8 you so much, Al. I now agree with Chuck. None of 9 these pumps are self-priming. 10 (Laughter.) 11 MR. POWERS: I have an anomaly here today. 12 MR. BROOKMAN: That's good for you. Right, 13 Gary? That's good for you. 14 Greg? You're next in the queue. Greg? 15 MR. CASE: No. It was covered. 16 MR. POWERS: We have an anomaly here. 17 MR. BROOKMAN: Yes? 18 MR. POWERS: Both Steve and Gary have 19 rescinded back on something they said earlier today. 20 We are starting a new trend. And I'll throw another 21 anomaly out there. 22 MR. BROOKMAN: We should acknowledge that

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 256 1 it's good for the negotiation process for people to 2 remain flexible. 3 MR. POWERS: Submersible pumps, by 4 definition, they're self-primers because they're 5 immersed in the fluid. 6 MR. FERNSTROM: Well, this is Gary again. 7 The full pumps are typically not submersible. 8 MR. POWERS: That's right. 9 MR. FERNSTROM: They may be below the water 10 level. 11 MR. POWERS: That's right. 12 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. 13 MR. FERNSTROM: Thank you for that 14 clarification. 15 MR. BROOKMAN: Louis? 16 MR. STARR: This is Louis Starr with NEEA. 17 I guess there's kind of a bigger picture here. 18 Essentially California has regulations on pool pumps. 19 And it sounds like this rulemaking on pumps in general 20 is going to change all of those regulations. 21 Is it DOE's -- you know, I think I heard -- 22 I forgot what her name is, but early on she said she

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 257 1 didn't think this would preempt California's pool pump 2 rules. But that may have been premature. It sounds 3 like we're hearing something different now. And so I 4 would like to hear if that is still the case or if 5 that is changing? 6 MS. KOHL: So this is Betsy Kohl, DOE GC. I 7 don't think anything has changed. I mean, the basic - 8 - just as a point of clarification on the preemption, 9 it already exists, even before the federal standard 10 becomes effective. 11 But the way we read the California pool pump 12 regulations is that they impacted the motor. So right 13 now there's no preemption of their regulations from -- 14 MR. BROOKMAN: Steve? 15 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Steve Rosenstock, EEI. But 16 since DOE is covering small electric motors, were any 17 of those motors ever used for pool pumps under the 18 small electric motor category? 19 MR. LIN: No. 20 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Because that goes from a 21 quarter to three horsepower. Just checking. Just 22 checking.

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 258 1 MR. LIN: Different purpose. 2 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Thank you. General 3 purpose. Thank you. 4 MR. BROOKMAN: I didn't hear the answer to 5 the question. 6 MR. LIN: No. 7 MR. BROOKMAN: Thank you. Okay. 8 Well, there's one thing that we didn't do. 9 I don't believe we did it. We didn't have a 10 definition for sanitary pumps. And we didn't close on 11 that item. It may be that we're not able to do that 12 today. But I just thought I'd raise it again and see 13 if that is something that could be addressed. Greg? 14 MR. TOWSLEY: Greg Towsley, Grundfos. I 15 talked with Greg Case. And there is in EU 547 a 16 comment in their guideline that talked about hygienic 17 or sanitary pumps. I've taken that. And I'm looking 18 on Americanizing it. And then if I can get it before, 19 I will send it to Greg to take a look at at least. 20 And if not, we'll have it tomorrow. 21 MR. BROOKMAN: We could do it tomorrow. 22 MR. TOWSLEY: Yes.

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 259 1 MR. BROOKMAN: It would be great. That 2 would be great. Okay. Good. I'll make a placeholder 3 for day two. 4 Paul? 5 MR. LIN: Sorry to bring this back to the 6 pool. So if we're saying that the pool stuff is all 7 non-self-priming end suction pumps, then what we're 8 talking here will eventually affect that product 9 category because that's in scope? 10 MR. HUBER: Yes, yes. 11 MR. LIN: Okay. 12 MR. FERNSTROM: This is Gary. For products 13 greater than one horsepower? 14 MR. HUBER: Yes, right. 15 MR. BROOKMAN: So far that's in scope, I 16 think; right, greater than one horsepower, non- self17 priming, and end suction? 18 MR. FERNSTROM: Like Chuck said, a lot of 19 these products are composite. And the manufacturers 20 are making the surfaces smoother. So the inherent 21 efficiency of these pumps is pretty good. 22 MR. BROOKMAN: Louis?

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 260 1 MR. STARR: Louis Starr with NEEA. But I 2 thought basically if those rules are in place, if the 3 rules are currently in place in California, it doesn't 4 matter what they are, they are still the ones that 5 would be the prevailing ones that would go, regardless 6 of whether it's over one horse or not. 7 I mean, in other words, let's say California 8 has more stringent requirements than whatever we come 9 up with for this rulemaking. I'm assuming those would 10 be the ones that would regulate, but pool pumps get 11 put in, not what is the basis of the DOE rule, this 12 DOE rulemaking. 13 MALE SPEAKER: Not under preemption. 14 MS. KOHL: Repeat that question. I'm sorry. 15 Betsy Kohl. 16 MR. STARR: So right now California has 17 regulations for pool pumps over one horsepower that 18 regulate, you know, pool pumps. So if I'm a 19 contractor and I'm installing a pool pump in 20 California, whose regulations -- I'm installing a one 21 and a half-horsepower pool pump in California, whom do 22 I have to look for for direction in what the

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 261 1 requirements are for installing that? 2 MS. KOHL: Well, for installing it? 3 MR. STARR: Well, the requirements that meet 4 Title 24. 5 MR. FERNSTROM: This is Gary. Betsy has 6 suggested that the California regulation really 7 affects the motor, not the pump. And, even though 8 it's not real, real clear, that's correct. You know, 9 their regulation specifies a certain kind of motor as 10 being on this pump. 11 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. 12 MR. FERNSTROM: So that's how the resolution 13 might work out here. 14 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Yes, Chuck? 15 MR. POWERS: I also think when we're done 16 here, there's going to be an MEI forming a chart and 17 all the good stuff. And chances are those units 18 already exceed that. So, even though it may cover it, 19 it won't matter. 20 MR. FERNSTROM: I hope so. Well, this is 21 Gary. Just an observation. I have certainly learned 22 a lot here. One of the things I have learned is the

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 262 1 pump standard probably will affect most of these pool 2 pumps that are over one horsepower. And if the states 3 want to keep their pool pump regulations, they're 4 going to have to restructure them a little bit so they 5 more clearly focus on the motor associated with the 6 pool pump, rather than the pump head. 7 MS. WILLIAMS: This is Alison. Can I just 8 ask a question? Do any of you manufacture pool pumps 9 that would have been reported in your end suction data 10 or like is that a whole other industry? 11 MR. HUBER: Well, no. Al Huber, Patterson. 12 We do not, but I gave you a list of 25 pump companies. 13 And they may very well. 14 MS. WILLIAMS: Okay. 15 MR. HUBER: So it is very clear. The 16 instructions are very clear. It was these parameters 17

-- 18 MS. WILLIAMS: Yes. 19 MR. HUBER: -- that we voted yes on today. 20 So, to answer your question, if they manufacture them, 21 they will be there. 22 MS. WILLIAMS: They will be there. Great.

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 263 1 MR. BROOKMAN: Will they be notated 2 separately? 3 MR. HUBER: No. 4 MR. BROOKMAN: No. Let me note that you may 5 not have seen at least three individuals, three 6 manufacturers, in the room raised their hands saying 7 they manufactured these pumps. 8 Gary? 9 MR. FERNSTROM: This is Gary. So, Alison, 10 there are one and a half million private residential 11 pools in California alone, which have filtration 12 pumps. And many of them also have other pool-related 13 pumps, like booster pumps for spas, sweeps, and that 14 sort of thing. 15 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. 16 MS. WILLIAMS: Okay. 17 MR. BROOKMAN: I'm wondering what we should 18 do next. Yes? Yes? Okay. Lucas says we should go 19 for it. 20 MR. ADIN: Well, let me clarify. I didn't 21 actually say anything. I just held this up. 22 MR. BROOKMAN: That is what I took your

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 264 1 meaning to be, precisely that. 2 MR. ADIN: More specifically, we should 3 return to that list and see if we can start looking at 4 some of those items that are still in yellow and 5 figure out what we are going to do about those. 6 MR. BROOKMAN: Yes. Then, once again, the 7 kind of logic here, presentation logic, is that the 8 items in yellow are predominantly, if not more than 9 predominantly, the HI proposed scope pumps -- 10 MR. HUBER: No. 11 MR. BROOKMAN: No? 12 MR. HUBER: Green. 13 MR. BROOKMAN: Green. What did I say? 14 MR. HUBER: Yellow. 15 MR. BROOKMAN: I apologize. I meant to say 16 green. I meant to say green. 17 -- largely Lot 11. And the yellow items are 18 those pumps that have emerged subsequent to HI's 19 proposal, some of which came from the framework 20 meeting or comments thereafter and came from various 21 different sources. 22 And now what we'd like to consider is those

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Commerical and Industrial Pumps Working Group Meeting 03-04-2014

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 265 1 items in yellow, any of which might be excluded at 2 this point. Discussion on that? Joanna? 3 MS. MAUER: Is there any update on whether 4 there is more data or will be more data? 5 MS. WILLIAMS: Alison. I'll jump in 6 whenever the -- we did not receive data from all of 7 the companies that had promised it to us, but HI has 8 volunteered to collect data from 25 pump companies 9 that they expect to receive March 15th. So there will 10 not be -- aside from circulators, there won't be 11 updated data until the next meeting for those pump 12 types. 13 MR. BROOKMAN: Does that mean you do have 14 some data for circulators? 15 MS. WILLIAMS: We have some circulators data 16 we can show. 17 MR. BROOKMAN: So you have it, and it is 18 ready to be shared? 19 MS. WILLIAMS: Yes. 20 MR. BROOKMAN: So that's another thing for 21 us to consider. Let me look at these other items in 22 yellow here. So I recall several individuals from the

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 266 1 energy efficiency caucus last meeting saying that, 2 "Gee, the scale of many of these listed, even in the 3 preliminary numbers, suggest that they're big enough 4 that we need more data before we would undertake 5 excluding them." That is what I remember. But you can 6 change your mind. No? Okay. So, then, Steve 7 Rosenstock? 8 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Just a quick one. Just 9 looking down at the slides 14, 15, and 16, the double 10 suction numbers, you are still waiting on the revised 11 numbers for them, updated numbers? 12 MR. BROOKMAN: Yes. Wait until we get 13 there. 14 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Well, again, just -- 15 MR. BROOKMAN: Fourteen, 15, 16? 16 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Yes. Just again, some of 17 these are falling under the Lot 11 plot that are in 18 the maybe. So I just said, you know, just trying to 19 look at some of the numbers associated with them. 20 MS. WILLIAMS: Yes. So this is Alison. We 21 plan to revise all of these numbers, hopefully prior 22 to the next meeting, based on the data HI is

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Commerical and Industrial Pumps Working Group Meeting 03-04-2014

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 267 1 collecting for us. 2 MR. BROOKMAN: Which is in late March, by 3 the way. It is going to be here shortly. 4 Al Huber? 5 MR. HUBER: At our last annual meeting, we 6 prevailed upon the CEO for the pump companies to give 7 us this data. And right now we have 25 pump 8 companies. This is going to go to NEMA BIS because 9 it's a third party. And we're sending it to NEMA BIS 10 because some of the people were reluctant to send it 11 to the government and they don't have any 12 nondisclosure agreements with this group because they 13 weren't considered by this group originally. So we're 14 going to have that. And our hope is before the next 15 meeting, we will have all of that information because 16 we don't believe this information that we have seen. 17 So we should have that. It should be 18 analyzed by NEMA BIS. They will tell us how they 19 analyzed it, you know, how they did it. And it should 20 represent at least 80 percent of the market in the 21 United States. So it may have some load factoring 22 involved, but it will be somewhat limited because it

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Commerical and Industrial Pumps Working Group Meeting 03-04-2014

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 268 1 is already going to consider a great deal of the 2 marketplace. 3 All of the major manufacturers were 4 participating. And so, you know, we hoped to have it 5 done, but we just didn't have enough time. Some of us 6 have already submitted and we sent a duplicate copy. 7 The ones had an NDA, we sent our duplicate copy to 8 them. So they have it. It's going to be in both 9 places. So it should correlate fairly well, I would 10 think. 11 MR. BROOKMAN: And, Al, just to clarify, 12 Alison said that the data is due back to you on the 13 15th? 14 MR. HUBER: It's due in to NEMA BIS on the 15 12th. They'll have to analyze it. It shouldn't take 16 them too long, we hope. But there's a lot to analyze. 17 I mean, this is huge because we had to do a lot of 18 data for the efficiencies. I mean, we had to go 19 through every pump and all efficiencies and all these 20 things. And we included everything that was in green 21 and everything that was in yellow. 22 And we also asked everybody to list five of

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Commerical and Industrial Pumps Working Group Meeting 03-04-2014

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 269 1 their competitors in case we missed anybody. We also 2 sent a letter out to all of the pump manufacturers in 3 this country, asking them to participate. So we may 4 end up with more, but right now we've got 25. Alison 5 has a list of the companies that so far said they were 6 going to do this. She can share it with you if you 7 like. 8 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. 9 MR. HUBER: So this data is not good. And I 10 think we all recognize that. And so we took it upon 11 ourselves to try to do something about it. 12 MR. FERNSTROM: So this is Gary. Thank you 13 very much. 14 MR. HUBER: Well, I twisted a lot of arms at 15 that meeting. 16 MR. BROOKMAN: No. Truthfully, Al, that was 17 a big effort and much appreciated. That really 18 advanced our efforts here. That's very good. 19 Now, returning to chart number 3, is there 20 anything to be said or done with respect to these 21 items in yellow at this point? 22 MR. POWERS: The radial split vertical,

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 270 1 everyone that makes that product that I'm aware of 2 called them VS1 because there is no really clear, 3 clean definition. And the closest it comes to is VS1. 4 I just looked at ours to qualify it. I looked at a 5 couple of competitors' earlier, yesterday or the day 6 before, looking at that. And everybody tends to lean 7 towards the VS1. 8 MR. BROOKMAN: VS1? 9 MR. POWERS: VS1. 10 MR. BROOKMAN: And is that HI nomenclature? 11 MR. CASE: Yes. 12 MR. POWERS: That's also HI's. 13 MS. WILLIAMS: Okay. Yes. So on this chart 14 on page 12, but HI said they were going to check on 15 that. So you guys concur that this is really VS1. 16 MR. HANDZEL: VS1, yes. 17 MR. POWERS: You all right with that? 18 MR. HANDZEL: Yes. 19 MR. HUBER: It will be reported VS1. 20 MS. WILLIAMS: As VS1? Okay. Great. Thank 21 you. 22 MR. POWERS: Then we combine with the

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 271 1 others. 2 MR. BROOKMAN: That's helpful. 3 MR. HANDZEL: Did you go up to the other one 4 that was green? 5 MS. WILLIAMS: Yes. 6 MR. HANDZEL: That's OH4? 7 MS. WILLIAMS: Okay. So this is -- okay. 8 MR. BROOKMAN: Someone told me that radial 9 split horizontal was very close to radial split 10 vertical because the green item and the yellow item 11 were quite closely aligned. I don't know what that 12 implies for their placement in yellow and green, but - 13

- 14 MR. POWERS: No. Our view from a VS8 is an 15 in-line casing diffuser. Radially split in multistage 16 with VS1 would not be that at all. It is not an in17 line. Remember, an in-line is where you're suspending 18 it within the piping frame. 19 MR. BROOKMAN: Yes. 20 MR. POWERS: It could be both, but I think 21 you're fine. But okay. Our experience has been one - 22

-

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Commerical and Industrial Pumps Working Group Meeting 03-04-2014

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 272 1 MR. BROOKMAN: Charlie? 2 MR. CAPPELLINO: Charlie Cappellino, ITT. I 3 think one of the things that we clarified in our 4 survey that we did through HI is we added the word 5 "multistage" in front of "axial split" -- 6 MR. POWERS: Right. 7 MR. CAPPELLINO: -- and "multistage" in 8 front of "radial split." That might not seem like 9 much, but it really clarifies for somebody who is 10 familiar with the product lines. And if you would go 11 over to the right, it's two-stage and then BB3s and 12 BB4s are multistage anyway. So it was just a 13

-- 14 MR. BROOKMAN: With multistage, was it just 15 for radial split horizontal or all or also vertical? 16 MR. HUBER: For axial split and radial 17 split. 18 MR. CAPPELLINO: She's got it. 19 MR. POWERS: It's the way she's got it. 20 MR. HUBER: She's got it. 21 MS. WILLIAMS: Yes. I deleted the row and 22 combined it with the vertical row per their --

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 273 1 MR. HUBER: Just so you know, we really 2 don't expect to see very much out of either one of 3 those. 4 MS. WILLIAMS: Okay. 5 MR. HUBER: We really don't. 6 MS. WILLIAMS: Are you getting the companies 7 that are big in the -- 8 MR. HUBER: We're getting 25 pumps on the -- 9 MS. WILLIAMS: I know, but it seems that was 10 a little bit special to -- 11 MR. CAPPELLINO: We are getting -- 12 MS. WILLIAMS: Yes. Okay. 13 MR. HUBER: We are getting some of them, I 14 think. 15 MS. WILLIAMS: Thank you. 16 MR. BROOKMAN: The logic is that the 17 companies, those companies, will not be responsive or 18 it's a small number or -- 19 MR. HUBER: No. It's just that it's not a 20 pump that's used very often. It's just there's not 21 much usage of it, especially when you get into lower 22 horsepowers because the more stages you put on these

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Commerical and Industrial Pumps Working Group Meeting 03-04-2014

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 274 1 things, you know, the horsepower goes up. And so the 2 horsepower would be a limited factor here. So I 3 suspect -- I mean, we just don't think that there are 4 going to be that many. 5 MS. WILLIAMS: Okay. 6 MR. HUBER: But we can wait and see. 7 MR. BROOKMAN: Right. So this is good. 8 MR. POWERS: Alison, you made a change 9 there. We use a vertical turbine, including RS-V 10 immersible. You won't have a VS2 in that category. 11 So you combined two of them there. You probably want 12 to leave them separate. 13 MS. WILLIAMS: Vertical turbine are both VS1 14 and VS2? Okay. And the immersibles are included in 15 VS1? 16 MR. POWERS: Are only VS1. 17 MR. HUBER: Only VS1. 18 MR. POWERS: Only VS1. 19 MS. WILLIAMS: Yes. 20 MR. POWERS: So you need to separate them 21 back up again. 22 MS. WILLIAMS: Are you sure?

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 275 1 MR. HUBER: Yes. 2 MR. POWERS: Yes. I've never seen a double 3 suction. 4 MS. WILLIAMS: Right. But it doesn't have 5 to be both; right? I mean, the in-lines are not all, 6 I mean -- 7 MR. POWERS: Well, it all comes down to what 8 we end up moving up the green or moving in the red if 9 they're separate and might find somebody -- 10 MS. WILLIAMS: So you wouldn't want VS1 and 11 VS2 separate, not necessarily the immersible separate? 12 MR. POWERS: No, no. I'm going to restate 13 myself. The way you had it originally was good. You 14 made a change and did not say anything. 15 MS. WILLIAMS: So I guess my question is if 16 you decide to cover VS1s, that would include 17 automatically the immersibles or you are suggesting 18 you would maybe cover VS1 but exempt the -- 19 MR. HUBER: It's going to be folded in 20 there. You're not going to be able to tell. 21 MR. POWERS: Well, the way I will say it is 22 see up above where you have multistage axial and

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 276 1 double suction? 2 MS. WILLIAMS: Yes. 3 MR. HUBER: They're both BB1s? Same kind of 4 situation. It's the classification of the pump type. 5 Because of the HI and others, there's limited -- I am 6 going by the original sheet versus what is up there. 7 MR. HUBER: I understand that. In the 8 survey, we did not split it out. 9 MR. HANDZEL: The way they asked for it, we 10 didn't want to do it the way they asked for it. 11 MS. WILLIAMS: Okay. So, I mean, I -- 12 MR. POWERS: Okay. So, anyway, we're 13 talking -- 14 MS. WILLIAMS: -- think the way we asked for 15 it -- 16 MR. POWERS: -- survey versus -- 17 MS. WILLIAMS: -- is we did have a separate 18 category for it. We asked them to list the -- 19 MR. HUBER: Let's double check. 20 MR. BROOKMAN: Hang on a second. Would you 21 like to do a brief caucus, Al? 22 MR. HUBER: We're just going to double check

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 277 1 right now. 2 MS. WILLIAMS: Okay. 3 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. 4 MR. HUBER: It won't take but a minute. 5 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. 6 MR. HUBER: Well, -- 7 MR. HANDZEL: Maybe. 8 MR. HUBER: -- maybe. 9 MS. WILLIAMS: Maybe a few. 10 MR. HUBER: We've got to look at the survey 11 and see how we asked the question. 12 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. 13 MS. WILLIAMS: Yes. I'm pretty sure for our 14 end, we said list VS1 and VS2 or machine tool- type 15 products. 16 MR. HUBER: We try not to say what you asked 17 for. 18 MS. WILLIAMS: So yes because at the time, 19 we didn't know if it was a VS1 or not. So we wanted 20 to make sure we were getting the right thing. 21 MR. HUBER: We'll let you know -- 22 MS. WILLIAMS: Okay.

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 278 1 MR. HUBER: -- maybe. 2 (Pause.) 3 MR. HUBER: They are combined in our survey. 4 They are combined in our survey. 5 MR. POWERS: In their survey, but your 6 survey was separate. 7 MS. WILLIAMS: Okay. If they're combined in 8 your survey, then it's going to be hard to regulate 9 one but not the other analytically. 10 MR. HUBER: Right. 11 MR. HANDZEL: We could aggregate the data 12 and separate it because we asked for a column when we 13 asked them to indicate whether it was VS1 or VS2. So 14 we may be able to separate it out. 15 MS. WILLIAMS: You can separate VS1 and VS2, 16 but you can't separate the immersible section of VS1. 17 MR. HANDZEL: No. 18 MR. HUBER: No. 19 MS. WILLIAMS: Okay. So, I mean, Chuck has 20 expressed his interest that immersible be left 21 separate. But so are the rest of you proposing that 22 it just be rolled into the VS1 or how do you want to

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 279 1 handle that? 2 MR. POWERS: Well, we may have another 3 complication. 4 MS. WILLIAMS: Okay. 5 MR. POWERS: Your survey, the latest one, 6 said RSV. And next to it, you put VS8 from what I'm 7 reading here. 8 MS. WILLIAMS: Is that wrong? 9 MR. POWERS: Well, yes. It would not be 10 VS8. So you might have confused, you know, people 11 sending you data, too. 12 MALE SPEAKER: Are you sure of that? 13 MR. POWERS: Yes. I'm looking at the sheet, 14 the instructions, right here. 15 MS. WILLIAMS: Nice. Nice to get. 16 MR. POWERS: These are your instructions 17 right here. You have VS8 next to RSV. 18 MS. WILLIAMS: Well, that's this RSV; right, 19 the in-line casing diffuser one? So we requested 20 separate lines for each of those because we requested 21 these all individually, not these, so that we could 22 aggregate.

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 280 1 MR. HUBER: Yes. We did it separately on 2 the sheet here. 3 MR. BROOKMAN: So have you made the edits? 4 Did you think you -- 5 MS. WILLIAMS: Oh, I'm not clear. I don't 6 think I got a response to that request. 7 MR. POWERS: It should be VS1. 8 MR. HUBER: Alison? 9 MR. BROOKMAN: Here we go. Al, please? 10 You're next. Al? 11 MR. HUBER: We believe we can sort on that 12 and give you that data. 13 MS. WILLIAMS: Okay. So separating out 14 immersibles? 15 MR. HUBER: Yes, yes. 16 MS. WILLIAMS: Okay. 17 MR. HUBER: We will instruct NEMA BIS to do 18 it if that's what you need. 19 MS. WILLIAMS: Okay. I split it out. So are 20 you guys having further discussion or are we done on 21 this stuff? 22 MR. HUBER: No. We're done.

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 281 1 MS. WILLIAMS: Okay. 2 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Did she split it the 3 way you like it? Chuck? 4 MR. POWERS: Sorry? 5 MR. BROOKMAN: Did she get it the way you 6 want it to be? 7 MR. POWERS: Yes, yes, yes. 8 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. So this review, this 9 has been -- we have done a lot of clarifying here 10 already. Any additional thoughts on the items listed 11 here in yellow? 12 (No response.) 13 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. So you have something 14 else you would like to -- 15 MR. ADIN: Well, unless we wanted to talk 16 about circulators. 17 MR. BROOKMAN: I think that we have time. 18 And I think Alison has some new data. So maybe we 19 should talk about circulators. And then we'll see 20 where it goes from there. Okay? 21 MS. WILLIAMS: Okay. So should I just jump 22 into the new data or just -- okay.

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 282 1 MR. BROOKMAN: Do you think it needs some 2 setup, in addition to -- 3 MS. WILLIAMS: So the setup is just that we 4 received circulator data, some in aggregate, some 5 performance data, from the major circulator 6 manufacturers. So we just updated our circulator 7 numbers, then did a preliminary energy savings 8 estimate for them. 9 MR. BROOKMAN: It's not in this packet. 10 MS. WILLIAMS: No, it's not in this packet. 11 I just did it on the plane last night. 12 MR. BROOKMAN: Yes. 13 MS. WILLIAMS: Okay. So based on how HI did 14 their original circulator survey, we broke it up into 15 1/25th to a quarter horsepower and then greater than a 16 quarter to 3 horsepower. So the majority of the 17 shipments are in the small ones. And there are about 18 90,000 above a quarter, for a total of 1.6 million, 19 which is about what we had last time also. 20 We ran constant full-load energy use at a 21 couple of different operating hours just to show the 22 range. 2,160 is what HI has suggested may be

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 283 1 appropriate. So this is the annual constant full 2 load, energy in terawatt hours for a year of 3 shipments. So the total is approximately .46 terawatt 4 hours per year. So you can just see how it varies if 5 we decide later that maybe the operating hours is a 6 little low perhaps. 7 We have wanted to try to separate it into 8 hydronic heating and water applications, but we didn't 9 get enough people reporting and material type to 10 enable us to do that. So we can't refine operating 11 hours as well as we'd hoped. 12 Yes? 13 MR. STARR: Louis with NEEA. I just had a 14 question. I noticed the 2,160 and the 6,000 -- 15 MS. WILLIAMS: Yes. 16 MR. STARR: -- for the total. It looks like 17 you've got the energy use at .46 and 1.28. I was just 18 thinking it would be roughly three times as much or is 19 that how it ranges out? 20 MR. POWERS: Well, you got the three. The 6 21 is 64 to 128. So that's why. 22 MS. WILLIAMS: It is three.

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 284 1 MR. HUBER: It's close to three. 2 MR. POWERS: It's close to three I think in 3 the math; right? 4 MS. WILLIAMS: Or no. Okay. I did this on 5 a plane last night. It's possible it's off. 6 MR. POWERS: I think a better way to look at 7 it is -- 8 MR. ROSENSTOCK: You're okay. 9 MS. WILLIAMS: It's okay? 10 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Yes. That's right, yes. 11 MS. WILLIAMS: Okay. 12 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Question? 13 MS. WILLIAMS: Yes? 14 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Another follow-up. I know 15 since the magic number right here is about one 16 horsepower, any idea how that 90,000, how many might 17 be greater, you know, 1.0 to 3.0, horsepower, again, 18 just for discussion? 19 MS. WILLIAMS: I do not have enough 20 disaggregated data to report that. 21 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Okay. 22 MR. HUBER: So you know that we don't track

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 285 1 it that way. 2 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Okay. 3 MR. HUBER: So it's difficult for us to 4

-- 5 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Right. 6 MR. HUBER: -- try to come up with it. 7 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Yes. I was only asking 8 just because the one horsepower is -- 9 MR. HUBER: Yes. It's not that we're trying 10 to hide it. We just -- 11 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Oh, no. Of course. 12 MR. HUBER: We just don't know. 13 MS. WILLIAMS: We can tell you what the 14 average, of course, wattage is, which won't tell you 15 the answer but may provide some clue. 16 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Average wattage at full 17 load or part load? 18 MS. WILLIAMS: At full load. 19 MR. ROSENSTOCK: At full load? 20 MS. WILLIAMS: Yes. So Dan is looking that 21 up. 22 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Okay. Average within that

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 286 1 range or average in the whole range? 2 MS. WILLIAMS: We're going to tell you the 3 average in the whole, in the 1/25th to 3 horsepower. 4 I mean, I just can't tell you specifically what is 5 above one because we don't have enough manufacturers 6 that reported that information. 7 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Again, Steve Rosenstock, 8 EEI. That is fine, but, just again just in terms of 9 because we have that one horsepower minimum right now 10 as a parameter, that is the only reason I was asking. 11 That is the only reason. And then that way it kind 12 of, you know -- 13 MS. WILLIAMS: Okay. So the average wattage 14 for the one-quarter to three horsepower is 630 watts? 15 MR. ROSENSTOCK: 630. Probably the average 16 is still one horsepower less than I would -- again, I 17 don't know what the efficiency level is going to be 18 but -- 19 MS. WILLIAMS: Yes. 20 MR. ROSENSTOCK: -- right around one 21 horsepower is the average, I would guess, for that 22 wattage looking at this, maybe a little less. Again, I

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 287 1 don't know what the efficiency is, but for the 2 efficiency -- 3 MS. WILLIAMS: That's wire power. Steve, 4 that's wire power. 630 watts is -- 5 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Gotcha. 6 MS. WILLIAMS: -- the draw. Yes. 7 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Gotcha. So 844 is the -- 8 okay. 9 MR. BROOKMAN: Louis. Steve, do you want to 10 comment? Come up here and get close so we're on the 11 record. 12 MR. THOMPSON: Just a point of 13 clarification. These numbers represent CP1, 2, and 3? 14 MS. WILLIAMS: Yes. 15 MR. THOMPSON: So they're wet rotor 16 circulators. They're two-piece mechanical sealed 17 pumps. They're three-piece mechanical sealed 18 circulators. The wet rotor side is ECM and non- ECM. 19 And the wattage power consumption were all based on -- 20 at least what we did, were all based on the pumps 21 running at -- that's the maximum -- 22 MS. WILLIAMS: Yes.

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 288 1 MR. THOMPSON: -- wattage these things are 2 capable of pulling on a power grid. So it doesn't 3 take into account running at the right hand or left 4 hand -- 5 MR. ROSENSTOCK: It's a full load. It's a 6 full load. 7 MR. THOMPSON: -- for the BEP. You know, 8 three-speed circulators are running at speed three, 9 ECM circulators running at a backup speed. So in my 10 mind, this is the worst or the most they're ever going 11 to draw. 12 MS. WILLIAMS: Right. 13 MR. THOMPSON: The key here is they are all 14 three categories? 15 MS. WILLIAMS: Yes, that's right. 16 MR. HANDZEL: And, Steve, if you could just 17 explain the 2,160 hours that HI used when we did our 18 survey was an aggregate number for plumbing and 19 recirculation applications as well as hydronic heating 20 based on intermittent service throughout a heating 21 season period. You might remember -- Al has got me 22 looking for it, but you might remember more

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 289 1 specifically than that. 2 MR. BROOKMAN: So that was Mark. Now Steve? 3 Did you want to follow on? 4 MR. THOMPSON: Steve with TACO, Thompson 5 with TACO. I'll try to follow protocol here, too. The 6 2,160 for an HVAC application, if memory serves me 7 correctly, it was HVAC system, either heating or 8 cooling, running 6 months a year and operating for 6 9 hours a day every day. 10 MR. ROSENSTOCK: That was 2,160 divided by 11 365. We're talking like 6 hours a day all year. 12 MR. THOMPSON: So that would be the domestic 13 hot water recirc maybe. Okay. 14 MR. HANDZEL: Yes. It was an aggregate of 15 it, I remember, but I'm trying to think -- 16 MR. THOMPSON: That's how I calculated it 17 out, though. 18 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Yes. 19 MR. THOMPSON: So it was based on so many 20 hours a day. In a recirc application, we're taking a 21 part seasonal piece. So it's not operating for the 22 full year. Domestic hot water, obviously you're

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 290 1 running for 12 months. 2 MR. BROOKMAN: Louis? 3 MR. STARR: Yes. On that 2,160, I think 4 those numbers are -- we think that studies the 5 residential, I think. And that seems right for an 6 HVAC system in heating mode. So they seem the same in 7 that. Those numbers seem fine. 8 See, the question I -- I forgot the question 9 I was going to ask. I don't remember now. So -- 10 MS. WILLIAMS: Do you want me to keep -- 11 MR. STARR: Actually, now I remember what it 12 is. We were thinking about -- I was talking about the 13 terawatts down there. And so converting that into -- 14 DOE likes to think in terms of quads. And I know that 15 since you all do that, is that coming up? 16 MS. WILLIAMS: Yes, I have it. 17 MR. STARR: Okay. Well, we'll just wait, 18 then. 19 MS. WILLIAMS: So -- 20 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Well, before you go to 21 another slide -- 22 MS. WILLIAMS: No. I was just going to

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 291 1 finish this slide. 2 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Oh. Go ahead. Okay. Go 3 ahead. Go ahead. 4 MS. WILLIAMS: Okay. So the percent 5 variable-speed shipments, this is the aggregate. This 6 may be changing over time. This is a snapshot of one 7 year. And this does not include multi-speed 8 circulators. 9 So, then, to do potential savings, we 10 currently have only done it full load. We looked at 11 the rated wattage of an ECM that replaces equivalent 12 horsepower AC induction motor and came up with about 13 40 percent on average savings for the less than a 14 quarter and 25 percent for the greater than a quarter. 15 So, using the .46 terawatt hours, we can save 16 potentially .13 terawatt hours for the small ones, .03 17 for the larger ones, for a total of .16. So just 18 doing a quick DOE-type estimate, I took 30 years of 19 shipments with an assumed 5-year life, 2.5 site- to20 source conversion factor, which gives you 21 approximately .2 quads. 22 MR. BROOKMAN: Louis?

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 292 1 MR. STARR: So the life of a pump is five 2 years? 3 MS. WILLIAMS: So we can adjust this. For 4 circulator pumps, we understand it's probably more 5 like seven, but for ECMs, it may be more like three. 6 And so we just took a sort of an average in the middle 7 to do this general estimate. 8 MR. STARR: Circulators only last seven 9 years, not very -- 10 MR. HUBER: Well, you know, you have to make 11 money. 12 (Laughter.) 13 MR. STARR: Wow. I was thinking they -- 14 okay. Well, I guess it depends on which brand and all 15 kind of stuff. Okay. 16 MS. WILLIAMS: Yes. So, I mean, there's a 17 number of assumptions in here; right, the site- to18 source factor, the lifetime. So this is just a rough 19 like ballpark estimate to get put in context with 20 other rulemakings. 21 MR. BROOKMAN: Steve Rosenstock? 22 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Steve Rosenstock, EEI. And,

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 293 1 again, I'm just going to throw some round numbers out. 2 Again, using that one to 200 horsepower that's in the 3 parameter -- I know with the shaft horsepower, it's 4 going to be different from this. But suppose that -- 5 I'm going to just throw out a number. If it's above 6 one horsepower, let's say it's a third of that, a 7 third of the middle column. You know, under possibly 8 the current parameters, that is the number you are 9 talking about in this category. Divide those numbers 10 by three in the middle. That's what you're talking 11 about possibly under the current -- 12 MS. WILLIAMS: Under the current -- 13 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Under the current 14 parameters. 15 MS. WILLIAMS: Which do not apply to 16 circulators. 17 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Right, but I'm just saying, 18 though, you know, they're out there right now for all 19 of the other pumps. But, again, you know, if that 20 same parameter were used for this, that is what we 21 would be talking about. 22 MS. MAUER: So this is Joanna. I think if

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 294 1 we are going to include circulators, we would want to 2 talk about different parameters for circulators. And 3 I think that is why we specified that the parameters 4 we were voting on earlier were only applied to the 5 proposed HI, not to circulators. So I don't know that 6 we want to talk about a one-horsepower limit right 7 now. 8 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Right. Okay. And the 9 other thing is obviously, you know, I think, as Gary 10 was saying, this is primarily a residential product. 11 So that there is that issue of -- 12 MS. MAUER: So this is Joanna. I think that 13 Lucas clarified that that is not an issue in this 14 rulemaking. It doesn't matter whether it's primarily 15 used in residential or commercial settings. A pump is 16 a pump. 17 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Okay. I'm just -- well, 18 all I can say, though, but the thing is, like, for 19 example, there is -- we know the products have been 20 split out: commercial refrigeration versus 21 residential refrigerators. Sometimes there can't be a 22 split.

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 295 1 MS. MAUER: So this is Joanna. Yes, that's 2 true in that case, but this is I think a very 3 different situation. 4 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Okay. 5 MR. ADIN: The more analogous situation is 6 that for these products, it's more like plumbing 7 products, which are defined in the statute as being 8 consumer products. A lot of toilets are obviously 9 used in commercial applications. Pumps were -- the 10 style in the statute is commercial product, but this 11 does not preclude pumps used in residential 12 applications. Right? Yes. 13 MS. KOHL: Betsy Kohl from DOE. It's the 14 definition in 6311.2 is the definition of industrial. 15 It's to any significant extent distributed in commerce 16 for industrial or commercial use. And it's of a type. 17 The pump is the type. And the pump is distributed to 18 a significant extent in commercial use. So if there 19 is some subset that is used in residential, the 20 statute doesn't care. And we have had that position 21 in battery chargers since -- 22 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Steve Rosenstock, EEI

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 296 1 again. Just to follow up, even if 99 percent of the 2 circulators were sent to residential -- 3 MS. KOHL: That's correct. 4 MR. ROSENSTOCK: -- it wouldn't matter? 5 MS. KOHL: No. Not under the statute, no. 6 Betsy. 7 MR. BROOKMAN: Louis? 8 MR. STARR: Louis Starr with NEEA. Well, one 9 thing about the pumps is that they do have a three10 year warranty on them. And usually pumps last longer 11 than a warranty. So I kind of take issue with that 12 five years, but even just saying five years, do these 13 things pay back in their lifetime the cost 14 differential between the incremental costs and going 15 from a regular motor to an ECM motor and you get a 16 certain amount of savings at 2,160 hours? What was 17 the rough payback on just a simple payback? 18 MS. WILLIAMS: So we have not received data. 19 Well, maybe. Okay. So we requested data on the cost 20 of AC and cost of ECM. And I'm not sure we have it 21 from enough manufacturers yet. 22 MR. BROOKMAN: Al Huber?

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 297 1 MR. HUBER: I will try to convene the 2 circulator manufacturers tonight and see if we can 3 come up with that delta for you. 4 MR. HANDZEL: A lot of payback questions. 5 MR. HUBER: I mean, to answer your payback 6 question. 7 MR. HANDZEL: I mean, it's got to pay back 8 in the lifetime with equipment or then it doesn't make 9 any sense; right? 10 MR. HUBER: It doesn't make any sense; 11 right. So do you want to split between one-half and a 12 quarter like that and quarter and three or -- okay. 13 MR. STARR: I would say 1/25th. 14 MR. HUBER: The 1/25th and the 3? 15 MR. STARR: Yes. 16 MR. HUBER: Okay. 17 MR. BROOKMAN: Joanna? 18 MR. HUBER: I'll try to do that tonight for 19 you and have it tomorrow. 20 MS. MAUER: So we certainly appreciate that 21 and any information on cost or manufacturers, but I 22 was also wondering whether DOE is conducting its own

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 298 1 cost estimate, as it would typically do in a 2 rulemaking. 3 MS. WILLIAMS: Yes. I mean, since these 4 haven't been proposed for coverage yet, currently all 5 we have done is request data from manufacturers, as 6 opposed to spending a lot of effort yet on them. So 7 if it's something that after the manufacturers provide 8 you data tomorrow, that there are still outstanding 9 items that we need to look into, we can certainly do 10 that. 11 MS. MAUER: This is Joanna. And I would 12 just want to make sure that we're looking at the real 13 cost and not today's price. So just -- 14 MS. WILLIAMS: I think that you guys are 15 going to report costs; right, not price, the cost 16 difference? 17 MR. HUBER: We can do it both ways. No, I 18 don't think so. 19 MS. WILLIAMS: Right. 20 MR. HUBER: I don't think I can do that. I 21 can do price on that. We're not going to share with 22 each other costs. I promise you that.

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 299 1 MS. WILLIAMS: Good point. 2 MR. HUBER: Actually, we're not going to 3 share -- 4 MR. HANDZEL: Yes. 5 MR. HUBER: -- probably the price, but we'll 6 try to come up with -- 7 MR. HANDZEL: An average. 8 MR. HUBER: What we're going to do is say, 9 "What is your delta?" -- 10 MS. WILLIAMS: Okay. 11 MR. HUBER: -- and get that. Okay? Between 12

-- 13 MS. WILLIAMS: Delta on cost or delta on 14 price? 15 MR. HUBER: It's all price. 16 MR. WEINTRAUB: Just to clarify -- 17 MR. BROOKMAN: Yes? 18 MR. WEINTRAUB: Dan Weintraub, Navigant. So 19 we did request that data that would allow us to do 20 cost. And I think that is something that would be 21 worth hopefully the manufacturers putting effort into 22 picking that with something other than including it in

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 300 1 the scope to get all of that deep data from them and 2 us to do it ourselves. We did not receive enough 3 aggregate to do that analysis based on cost 4 aggregating and keeping confidential the data. 5 MR. BROOKMAN: Mark? 6 MR. HANDZEL: And, just to reiterate -- Mark 7 Handzel from Xylem -- you know, there are some issues 8 with this because, really, if you look at the 9 circulator manufacturers, you know, there are only a 10 couple that really are actively selling ECM circulator 11 products on the market that could give you those 12 costs. 13 As I think you guys know who visited me in a 14 recent trade show, our line is just coming into place 15 on larger sizes. So we are just getting into the cost 16 data. 17 You know, I think our friends at TACO buy a 18 product from another supplier. So they probably can't 19 break the motor out because they buy a pump and a 20 motor. 21 So the data you are asking for may not be 22 obtainable. So I just wanted to bring that down.

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 301 1 MR. HUBER: Al Huber, Patterson. So 2 everybody understands, this is -- I don't want to say 3 it's brand new technology, but it's brand new to the 4 pump industry. And that's probably why we don't know 5 as much about it or have so much to -- 6 MR. HANDZEL: Especially in North America. 7 MR. HUBER: We are going to try with what we 8 have. And so I'll convene the two that are selling it 9 and let them give me as an arbitrator -- 10 MR. BROOKMAN: If you want me to meet with 11 you, I'll do that. 12 MR. HUBER: You'll do it? 13 MR. BROOKMAN: Yes. 14 MR. HUBER: Well, we'll try to get you 15 something. 16 MR. BROOKMAN: Steve, go ahead. 17 MR. THOMPSON: The formula is relatively 18 simple. It's hours operations times cost, average 19 cost, of electricity in the United States. I think 20 the industry is pretty much sealed in on 11 cents a 21 kilowatt and then the balance of the calculations 22 determining how much energy would be used over the

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 302 1 2,150 hours with a standard AC circulator versus an 2 ECM circulator with various control strategies. And 3 that's the cost side of how much power, how many 4 dollars of electrical energy you are saving using a 5 high-efficiency circulator. 6 From a cost standpoint, it is the end user 7 that is paying for the electricity. So, at least us, 8 what we do is we take the consumers' estimated cost of 9 a standard AC circulator versus an ECM circulator. 10 And there are some relatively good ballpark consistent 11 numbers that are pretty close to that. 12 MS. WILLIAMS: Okay. 13 MR. THOMPSON: So, you know, it will take a 14 couple of markups and all that kind of stuff, but the 15 consumer is paying for the electricity if the consumer 16 is buying the circulator. 17 Going back to how many years these things 18 run, because it's all over the map because they go 19 into such various different applications at different 20 wire conditions and all that kind of stuff, the 21 submersible well, the residential submersible well, 22 pump guys, for example, use an average life of -- it's

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 303 1 seven to ten years, I think, in that range. So I 2 would be fairly comfortable by saying a circulator 3 would probably fall into that same range as well, but 4 it ain't three years. And it's going to be longer 5 than our warranty, at least ours anyway, Mark. 6 (Laughter.) 7 MR. THOMPSON: That might give you a little 8 insight on -- 9 MR. BROOKMAN: So let me restate for the 10 record what just happened there. 11 (Laughter.) 12 MR. BROOKMAN: Thanks for that, Steve. That 13 is helpful. 14 Do you have other -- 15 MS. WILLIAMS: That's all the data I have. 16 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. And I appreciate Al's 17 data-gathering request or for tonight. 18 MR. HANDZEL: Al, just to clarify, that 11 19 cents a kilowatt, I'll send you the table. There's a 20 Department of Commerce number that we use from a table 21 for the average residential cost of electricity. So 22 that's where that number came from. And it was

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 304 1 actually in the original HI -- 2 MS. WILLIAMS: Yes. 3 MR. HANDZEL: -- circulator survey from a 4 year and a half ago. 5 MS. WILLIAMS: I mean, this whole thing is 6 ballpark. 7 MR. HANDZEL: I know it is. 8 MS. WILLIAMS: So I'm not terribly worried - 9

- 10 MR. HANDZEL: Yes. We tried to be as 11 scientific as possible. 12 MS. WILLIAMS: -- about getting that number. 13 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Good. So, then, based 14 on this presentation, clearly there's a lot more 15 information to be gathered if we're lucky, if we're 16 very lucky. Comments on how this influences you're 17 thinking on circulators? Steve Rosenstock? 18 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Alison, are there other 19 slides or is this the -- 20 MS. WILLIAMS: No. 21 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Okay. I'll just say I went 22 back to slide 16 because I'm a numbers geek. And I

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 305 1 looked at your annuals. Again, just to give everybody 2 a perspective, just looking at the Lot 11 pumps I 3 believe are in the Yes category already, based on this 4 preliminary estimate, the total just for Lot 11, not 5 Lot 11 plus, ranges from 6.3 to 9.46 terawatt hours as 6 a reference point. And obviously there is no 7 potential energy savings in this one, but, again, that 8 is the number that is kind of there right now. And 9 then you can look at the circulators in terms of what 10 the -- that range is .46 to 1.28, just to show those 11 national ranges to people. 12 MR. BROOKMAN: Chuck? 13 MR. POWERS: Yes. Just a note. There was a 14 study done on the EU group on circulators. And, 15 reading from it, they put together several people to 16 analyze the situation before they made their final 17 decision. I'll read a paragraph. 18 MR. BROOKMAN: Before you do -- and we heard 19 previously in the last couple of meetings that use on 20 circulators, the usage patterns, are different in the 21

-- 22 MR. POWERS: That's right. That's right. I

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 306 1 agree. But, just to help the context here, so to go 2 back, Alison, to your chart -- 3 MS. WILLIAMS: The red one. 4 MR. HANDZEL: The circulator numbers. 5 MR. POWERS: The circulator. 6 MS. WILLIAMS: Oh. 7 MR. POWERS: Just the context. So we're 8 showing here a savings of .13 right if I'm seeing that 9 right, 1.5 million pump. So here they say, "The total 10 annual sales of circulators in Europe in scope is 14 11 million." So just bear with me. So you're going from 12 1.6 to the European arena of 14 million. That's 13 within scope. And the power consumption is 64 14 terawatt. 15 Now, if everybody's constant, what I also 16 have the guys do for weighing terms is for 17 generalities to give this some meaning, 10 terawatts 18 is the annual output of a large power station, 10. If 19 you ran a 1,000-megawatt station for a year, that's 20 about 10 terawatts; right, so just perspective; right? 21 So their study, those 14 million annual 22 consumption, was 64 terawatt. Okay?

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 307 1 MR. HANDZEL: Terawatt hours? 2 MR. POWERS: Terawatt hours. About half of 3 that is water pumps, so 32. The energy savings by 4 cutting off, they go into classes, A, B, C, and D. 5 And below is about five terawatts. So they said that 6 bunch down there, class D, you know -- 7 MR. BROOKMAN: That's the small ones? 8 MR. POWERS: -- don't worry about it. Yes. 9 MR. HANDZEL: That's the official ones. 10 MR. POWERS: Yes, right. 11 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. 12 MR. POWERS: And they go, the market they 13 restrict it to is class A. Energy savings will be 14 about 40. Okay? This is a very high percentage 15 because there is a technology step using permanent 16 magnet motors and variable-speed control and greatly 17 exceeds the savings potential for water pumps. It 18 should be noted that in Lot 11 studies, circulators 19 are considered as complete pump sets, which allows the 20 technology to be considered -- and I think we talked 21 about that before for water pumps -- versus water 22 pumps only where the hydraulics were included. And,

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 308 1 therefore, small efficiency improvements would be 2 required. So just a relative step here. In Europe, 3 it's like way up here. And if this is really .13 4 terawatt hours, it's quite small. 5 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. 6 MR. POWERS: Again, if the numbers -- I'm 7 just reading from what they were showing in the study. 8 And this was an independent group that they put 9 together. I'm just, you know -- 10 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Okay. 11 MR. POWERS: And the only thing that we can 12 go on the basis of, the 14 million versus the 1.6, I'm 13 not going to qualify the rest of it. It's a huge 14 difference. 15 MS. WILLIAMS: Is that energy use for a year 16 of shipments or for the stock? 17 MR. POWERS: No. They're saying the total 18 consumption of 14 million was 64 terawatts per annum, 19 about half of that for water pumps in scope. So the 20 water pumps they're focused on was about 32 terawatt 21 hours. 22 MR. BROOKMAN: Lucas?

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 309 1 MR. ADIN: I think the questions she's 2 asking, Chuck, does that number represent -- 3 MR. HANDZEL: An installed base for -- 4 MR. ADIN: Right. Is that the installed 5 base of all pumps in use -- 6 MR. HANDZEL: Yes. 7 MR. ADIN: -- or your shipments? 8 MR. POWERS: Yes. I don't know by what this 9 is reading. I don't know. The total annual sales. 10 So that's shipments. 11 MR. BROOKMAN: Sixty-four million? 12 MR. POWERS: No, no. Fourteen million 13 pumps. 14 MR. BROOKMAN: Thank you. 15 MR. HANDZEL: Versus the 1.6. 16 MR. POWERS: Sixty-four million -- 17 MR. HANDZEL: 1.6. 18 MR. POWERS: -- versus the 1.6. 19 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Lucas, go ahead. 20 MR. ADIN: No. I -- 21 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Gary, please? 22 MR. FERNSTROM: This is Gary. I just would

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 310 1 like to make the observation that in a lot of these 2 energy efficiency opportunities, at least for us, the 3 way we look at it is not so much the magnitude of the 4 opportunity. For sure, the magnitude is much greater 5 in Europe than it may be here, but the cost6 effectiveness of it. So the question is, you know, 7 what do you get for what it costs? And I think we're 8 prepared to make an argument that, even though we 9 don't have the sales and energy use that Europe does, 10 this may be a pretty darned cost-effective 11 opportunity. And in the next couple of meetings here, 12 we will play that out and find out whether it is or 13 not. 14 MR. BROOKMAN: Louis? 15 MR. STARR: Louis Starr with NEEA. And 16 already I know since they only last five years, they 17 must be cost-effective or they wouldn't sell them in 18 the market; right? Nobody would buy something, spend 19 more money on it than not have it last the lives of 20 the item that you bought. So I would think we were at 21 least 20 percent in the cost-effectiveness. 22 MR. BROOKMAN: Bob?

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 311 1 MR. BARBOUR: Bob Barbour with TACO. Let's 2 keep in mind they haven't been available that long in 3 this market, at least from the majority of us. Some 4 people have had it, but it hasn't been that widely 5 spread throughout the marketplace yet to even justify 6 that statement that it might have been -- 7 MR. STARR: Well, I mean, if you design it; 8 right, you assume that you intend for them to last. 9 In other words, if you're bringing a product to 10 market, you would expect that it be cost-effective in 11 its lifetime, I would think. In other words, if you 12 put something out there and it's an up sale from your 13 base model, you would expect that there is a cost14 effective reason for the customer to buy that thing. 15 In other words, he is going to save more energy over, 16 you know, the lifetime of the product. In other 17 words, the actual extra dollar cost makes up in the 18 energy he saves. 19 MR. BARBOUR: All I'm saying is that -- this 20 is Bob Barbour again. All I'm saying is that I am not 21 sure we know the exact life cycle of that product at 22 this point.

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 312 1 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Useful. That's 2 helpful. 3 So additional thoughts, comments based on 4 the circulator data and your experience? 5 (No response.) 6 MR. BROOKMAN: Nothing additional? Okay. 7 Gary? 8 MR. FERNSTROM: This is Gary. I think the 9 energy-saving estimate is a little lower than what it 10 might actually be, but I'll be sharing some 11 information that goes to that. 12 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Great. Let me note 13 that we have made great progress and we have really 14 covered a lot already today. I am wondering what is 15 still in the hopper for us to take up. For example, I 16 am wonderful if we should think about test methods 17 briefly. 18 MR. FERNSTROM: So, Doug, this is Gary 19 again. I can share the data that I've got from our 20 testing if you want to do that. 21 MR. BROOKMAN: That would be great if you 22 are willing to do that if you are comfortable with

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 313 1 doing that now. 2 MR. FERNSTROM: I'd make two or three 3 caveats. Ordinarily I would be very prepared to 4 present this data. And I am not so prepared. So you 5 will have to work with me on it a little bit. And I am 6 going on 36 hours since I last slept. But I think it 7 is interesting, nonetheless. 8 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. 9 MR. FERNSTROM: So let me plug this in and 10 show you what we found out. 11 MR. BROOKMAN: That's great. We may need to 12 do the data stick because we unplugged this. 13 MR. FERNSTROM: You unplugged the monitor? 14 MR. BROOKMAN: It's all secured and all of 15 that. Here's one right here. 16 MR. FERNSTROM: All right. It's going to 17 take me a minute. 18 MR. BROOKMAN: Everybody should just stand 19 up and stretch a little bit, especially those who have 20 only slept not in 36 hours. 21 (Pause.) 22 MR. FERNSTROM: Okay. So this is Gary. I

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 314 1 showed you last time the test facility that we set up 2 at our engineering research lab in San Ramon. So far 3 we have tested seven of these pumps. These are very 4 preliminary results. And we haven't really vetted 5 them yet. So I'm not going to leave this with you, 6 but we will be preparing this information for about 20 7 or so circulator pumps. And we will be leaving it 8 with you. 9 This may be an unfamiliar presentation for 10 you. What we wanted to do was look at the permanent 11 magnet products with the solid lines and the induction 12 motor products with the dashed lines in terms of how 13 many gallons these pumps circulate per watt hour of 14 energy consumed. 15 And I think what we are really paying for 16 here in hydronic heating systems and hot water 17 recirculation systems is getting a certain number of 18 gallons pumped per watt hour of energy used. And the 19 more gallons we get per watt hour, the more efficient 20 our pumping system and the more heat we circulate or 21 transfer. 22 So we have plotted these graphs for three

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 315 1 different speeds. The red shows the maximum speed. 2 The blue shows the intermediate speed. And the 3 orangeish color or yellowish color on the projector 4 shows the low speed. 5 And what you can see is categorically the PM 6 motor pumps more water per watt hour consumed than the 7 induction motor. And you get significant more watt 8 hours or water pumped at low speed than you do at the 9 maximum speed. So if we really want to get the best 10 we can out of these products, we are going to be using 11 ones that have PM motors and endeavoring to get them 12 to operate at the lowest speed consistent with the 13 heat transfer that we need to get. 14 So are there questions about this slide and 15 this presentation? Go ahead, Al. 16 MR. HUBER: Al Huber, Patterson. I was just 17 a little curious about the blue curve. The solid line 18 is the one that is the PM motor. Is that correct? 19 MR. FERNSTROM: The solid line is the PM 20 motor, yes. 21 MR. HUBER: Okay. So it's pumping more 22 gallons per minute per -- well, you've got flow at the

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 316 1 bottom; right? 2 MR. FERNSTROM: Yes. We have flow rate at 3 the bottom just to give an indication of how hard 4 these pumps are working. And we have a measure of 5 efficiency on the vertical axis, which is how many 6 gallons we pump per hour, per watt hour. 7 MR. HUBER: I have to think about that. When 8 you compare the two pumps, what I would call the cost 9 of speed and the variable speed -- which would be the 10 PM motor; right? 11 MR. FERNSTROM: Yes. 12 MR. HUBER: Is the pump itself the same 13 pump? 14 MR. FERNSTROM: Well -- 15 MR. HUBER: I mean, is the wet end exactly 16 the same wet end? 17 MR. HANDZEL: Are you just switching the 18 motors? 19 MR. HUBER: Are you just switching the 20 motors or -- 21 MR. FERNSTROM: Well, these are products 22 that we bought in the market. So we haven't switched

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 317 1 the motors. And I don't know and can't tell you 2 products they were other than they were 1/25th 3 horsepower circulators, one of which was an induction 4 product that offered us 3-speed capability and one of 5 which was a PM product that offered us 3-speed 6 capability. And we compared the two of them on here 7 in this manner. 8 MR. HUBER: I can't imagine a situation 9 where the same wet end would be more efficient run by 10 -- would pump more gallons per minute than one in a 11 PM. I mean, that doesn't -- I just can't envision 12 that. 13 MR. BROOKMAN: Chuck? 14 MR. POWERS: Yes. This is Chuck. What 15 they've done is -- you can think of it two ways -- 16 one, that diagram. And then you go by the speed. 17 There's no head on here; right? 18 MR. HUBER: Right. 19 MR. POWERS: So the head is by the square; 20 right? So just going just one by one, they take the 21 red. The part that is interesting is they are all 22 consistent in a sense. The solid line is the PM.

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 318 1 They're going to be more effective for kW ratings; 2 right, because it's more efficient; right, but in a 3 dotted line the less. 4 MR. HUBER: That's true. 5 MR. POWERS: What is interesting here is the 6 only one when you get out on the curve that the PM 7 actually drops off. And I think what that is is PM is 8 unique. When you get out to overload them, they 9 actually become less efficient when you overload them. 10 MR. HUBER: Yes. 11 MR. POWERS: So that value makes sense at 12 the fastest speed; right, because they had the speed 13 sensitivity. 14 Then what Gary is they took that same unit 15 my assumption is because if you look at the run-out 16 here and you take that peak line, it makes sense. So 17 then you go to the blue. And, again, the PM's the 18 more efficient unit. And the dashed line would be 19 less. So it's consistent. What's unique, though, 20 again, is if you were to run the yellow all the way 21 up, if you had a system that could do it, the dotted 22 yellow and the solid match

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 319 1

-- 2 MR. HUBER: They cross, yes. They would. 3 MR. POWERS: -- the same as you did here. 4 Now, you crossed. All right? And so if you drew a 5 line when you do it mathematically -- right, Al? 6 MR. HUBER: Yes. 7 MR. POWERS: Really, what you would do -- 8 and, Charlie, you know -- you would draw a line right 9 here. 10 MR. CAPPELLINO: Yes. 11 MR. POWERS: And then somewhere up here, 12

-- 13 MR. HUBER: That's where those two would 14 come. 15 MR. POWERS: -- these two would hit if you 16 run it off the system. Right? 17 MR. HUBER: Right. 18 MR. POWERS: So this makes sense. This 19 makes sense. And basically when he is going down 20 twice the square on speed; right, you are actually 21 more efficient, even though you're pumping less, 22

--

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 320 1 MR. HUBER: Right. 2 MR. POWERS: -- you're only 6 versus the big 3 boy or high speed at 12 -- and, remember, what is cool 4 here is flow is one to one; right, relationship to the 5 speed. 6 MR. HUBER: Right. 7 MR. POWERS: Is if you did the calculation 8 here, you're going from six; right? And then you did 9 it out here to 12. You're running out. So, you know, 10 that makes sense now when you draw these; right? So 11 what he's saying is you're getting less flow, but the 12 characteristics of the unit on the permanent magnet, 13 same as verticals. You put a vertical in a well. And 14 you put a verti-magnet on it. You can take the same 15 diameter bowl, but you can get more horsepower of the 16 same diameter motor. 17 MR. HUBER: Right. 18 MR. POWERS: And it's with respect to the 19 design. 20 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. 21 MR. FERNSTROM: So I'm going to move on to 22 the next slide. I realize this is a little different

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 321 1 way of looking at it than probably most of us have 2 looked at it. In this slide, we are looking at the 3 water efficiency in percent. And we priced out these 4 products. So the solid line is the PM motor, which we 5 purchased for $167. And the dashed line is the 6 induction motor, which we purchased for $86. And you 7 can see the improvement in best efficiency point at 8 the max speed, the intermediate speed, and the low 9 speed relative to the base case. 10 MR. POWERS: This is Chuck. Question. When 11 you compared the PM to the induction, the induction 12 does not require a VFD. You just had a different 13 control or you used the same VFD for both and you kept 14 the pump separate? 15 MR. FERNSTROM: We had an induction pump 16 that had multiple speeds by virtue of multiple poles. 17 MR. POWERS: But you kept it separate or 18 that included the -- 19 MR. FERNSTROM: Well, in this test, we kept 20 it separate, yes. 21 MR. POWERS: Okay. But the price included 22 the VFD and the three-speed?

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 322 1 MR. FERNSTROM: Yes. These were integral 2 products. So they were sold with three- speed 3 capability. I don't know whether these prices are 4 representative or not. We'll look to our consultant 5 friends to get some sort of market average. But this 6 is what we found. 7 So you can see that there is a significant 8 improvement opportunity, 60 percent at maximum speed 9 and as much as 200 percent at low speed, by utilizing 10 the PM motor. 11 MR. POWERS: Going back there, and, see, 12 Lucas, what is interesting on that equation, 75 13 percent load, 100 percent BEP, and then the 105/110. 14 In Europe, you just take a look at the blue one. The 15 peak efficiency I am going to guess here is right 16 around on the solid line, I will say eight. Okay. 17 This is real quick. Because you noticed a drop-off of 18 five or ten percent. That's EU. Really times that at 19 around ten; right? You get enough of your five or ten 20 percent off on efficiency. So, really, then the scale 21 when you get out to 125 -- and it also gets back to 22 what Greg suggested. Get rid of the 25 percent load

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 323 1 because now what you're doing, you're like one- tenth 2 of the power back on the curve. And it doesn't add 3 any value to it; right? 4 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Gary? Steve. You're 5 saying wire to water. How far back on the wire are 6 you going? 7 MR. BROOKMAN: That's Steve. 8 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Steve Rosenstock. 9 MR. FERNSTROM: Thank you, Steve. This is 10 Gary again. Just the input to the pump. 11 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Just the input for the 12 pump. 13 MR. BROOKMAN: Steve? 14 MR. THOMPSON: Steve, TACO. You're saying, 15 then, Gary, everything you have shown us so far is 16 perfectly logical, 100 percent, like as far as the ECM 17 savings on lower speeds versus an AC circulator. 18 They're got better turndown ratios. The wide range of 19 an ECM circuit is between like 40 and 10 watts. So it 20 makes sense. My question is you're showing a 60 21 percent difference in efficiency at maximum speed, 22 but, to be blunt, I don't know if that is a fair

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 324 1 representation because a standard AC circulator, 2 you're looking at 22 percent line to water efficiency, 3 and an ECM circulator is like 33 percent. I'm not 4 getting how that calculates to a 60 percent 5 difference. 6 MR. POTTS: I think he is talking absolutely 7 value of water efficiency. 8 MALE SPEAKER: It's a 60 percent increase in 9 efficiency, not -- 10 MR. THOMPSON: Okay. I look at that that an 11 ECM circulator is like double the efficiency of an AC 12 circulator, not 60. You know, so it's like apples and 13 oranges. 14 MR. POWERS: You've got a point. This is 15 Chuck. And you would have to -- I think Gary is being 16 nice: This is my data. I haven't had a chance to 17 analyze it yet. 18 MR. THOMPSON: Okay. 19 MR. POWERS: But, to be fair to him, you 20 know, you could argue, in other words, the bottom. 21 But, to be fair, just take the BEP for the red dashed 22 line. It said about it may be nine; right, nine

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 325 1 gallons a minute. The BEP for the permanent magnet is 2 over at about 11. I'm just quickly looking at this; 3 right? So forget the efficiency. 4 The point is it's shifting; right, also. So 5 how do you take that into account because, by 6 definition, should you take efficiency -- and this is 7 the trick on VFDs because in permanent magnets that we 8 study in all of our development, you know, 9 theoretically you can say, "Okay. For same given 10 flow," you know, to Gary's circulator in a plant, 11 they're going to regulate that circulator at nine 12 gallons a minute or eight gallons a minute. So let's 13 say this is a nine. Well, if you come up and measure 14 it, you are probably not going to be 60 percent. You 15 have to calculate it at something less. 16 Now, if you go to here, well, now you're 17 going to have to shift by speed, throttle it, do 18 whatever, but you're also going to get 11. And will 19 the boiler accept 11? So you have to analyze it; 20 right? 21 MR. FERNSTROM: So this is Gary. Chuck, 22 that's a good observation. We did not do the

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 326 1 calculation with respect to -- 2 MR. POWERS: Sure. 3 MR. FERNSTROM: -- the same flow. 4 MR. POWERS: Sure, sure. 5 MR. BROOKMAN: Louis? 6 MR. STARR: So this is Louis Starr with 7 NEEA. There's something else. So you would say, 8 "Well, I get ten percent savings." So that means I 9 can use ten percent less power. Well, in actuality, 10 it's not. It's the flow times the head with 11 efficiency on the bottom. 12 This is a good analogy. In your house you 13 have no insulation in your wall. And you put the 14 first inch in. You get a lot of savings. You've got 15 three inches in. And you put another inch. You don't 16 get as much savings. And that is because the amount 17 of energy that you would use is on the denominator and 18 the insulative value, 1/r, is on the bottom. It's the 19 same way with efficiency. 20 When you go from a pump that's 40 percent 21 efficient to 60 percent, you get a huge uptake in 22 power than if you go from 60 to 80 as the amount of

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 327 1 actual power used is more because the percent you are 2 going up is a greater portion of where you started. 3 When you get up to a higher end, that same 10 percent 4 of 80 is not as much as a 10 percent when it's 40. 5 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Baselines changed. 6 MR. STARR: Yes. 7 MR. ROSENSTOCK: It's gone down. Yes. 8 MR. STARR: So, I mean, what you'll really 9 see -- and I think he is going to get to some slides 10 later -- is that the actual power is substantially 11 more, even though the efficiency increased ten 12 percent. You're thinking, "Oh. Well, ten percent 13 more." Well, no. It's more than ten percent more. 14 MR. THOMPSON: Who is saying ten percent? 15 MR. STARR: Well, my point is that these 16 charts, while it's nice to know, what we really care 17 about is power because we are regulating the energy 18 efficiency here and its energy used. 19 MR. FERNSTROM: Well, this is Gary again. I 20 would argue that what we're really looking at here is 21 how many gallons we get circulated per watt hour of 22 energy we use. Okay. So here we look at the hydraulic

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 328 1 output power. The solid line is the PM motor. The 2 dashed line is the induction motor. We get it at 3 different speeds. And you sort of see what you would 4 expect at the higher speed that hydraulic power for 5 all of these products is greater. You know, this is 6 no surprise for us. 7 So we put together this little table. And I 8 anticipate that what you are all going to react to is 9 our use of 7,300 hours. That's my estimate of the 10 circulating pump, where it just doesn't shut off. And 11 I would agree with you that's not a good value to use 12 for hydronic heating systems. It may not even be a 13 good value to use in all hot water circulation systems 14 either. But that's what we used. 15 Conversely, we used an electric cost of ten 16 cents a kilowatt hour. And I was over at my 17 neighbor's yesterday and found that -- not yesterday; 18 I was on an airplane -- but last week and found that 19 their tail block electric cost was 33 cents a kilowatt 20 hour. So things are different in California. I want 21 to get myself to the place where I can be on the low 22 side of the national average if it's 11 cents and

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 329 1 we're at 33. The low side ought to be like five or 2 six cents. And I want to get myself a long extension 3 cord. 4 Anyway, I think that for the incremental 5 least cost we saw between these two products, with a 6 reasonable estimate of operating hours, we can find 7 ourselves to some semblance of cost- effectiveness 8 here. 9 MR. POWERS: Gary, so would it be fair to 10 say if you were at one-third of that value, 7,300, you 11 could take the payback 3 times? Instead of 4 years, it 12 would be 12 years? 13 MR. FERNSTROM: At that electric price, yes. 14 MR. BARBOUR: Yes. 15 MR. FERNSTROM: Yes. That would be -- yes. 16 MR. POWERS: Unless the price went up, it 17 would be -- 18 MR. FERNSTROM: It would be shorter, yes. 19 So, anyway, this was a back-of-the-envelope 20 calculation, certainly not DOE-caliber, but it's what 21 we did. 22 So I wanted to share with you what we have

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 330 1 done so far, what we have seen preliminarily subject 2 to further vetting before I bring the whole data set. 3 MR. BROOKMAN: Right. This is very helpful. 4 Louis, do you have a comment here? 5 MR. STARR: Yes. I was just wondering. So 6 what's the size of the -- it's 1/25th. So that is the 7 smallest of the group; right, or is there anything 8 smaller than 1/25th? 9 MR. FERNSTROM: I don't believe so. 10 MR. STARR: Okay. So that means the payback 11 as well. I guess I don't know if the payback would be 12 better as you went up in size because the price gets 13 different or more. The energy savings is more. 14 MR. FERNSTROM: I think the application 15 changes. Somebody raised the issue earlier whether we 16 were talking about residential or commercial products. 17 You know, when you start to get up into the one18 horsepower range, you're probably talking about more 19 of a commercial product, perhaps more hours of 20 operation in that application, but we're not sure 21 about that. 22 MR. BROOKMAN: Bob Barbour?

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 331 1 MR. BARBOUR: I was just saying we just 2 crunched a few numbers here. And if you would put the 3 2,160 in there, it would have been 13 and a half 4 years. 5 MR. FERNSTROM: We have looked at in this 6 slide how these things sort of fall out, the ones we 7 tested of different sizes so far, showing the motor 8 type and the speed control available, with the EEI, 9 the BEP, and the price, and how they sort of fall out 10 relative to the European scale of merit. 11 MR. HUBER: This is Al Huber. Can you go 12 back to, yes, that slide? When you are calculating 13 the operating, you have operating hours. And then you 14 have got kW consumed. How did you arrive at where you 15 were operating? In other words, you operated at three 16 different speeds; right, when you did the test? 17 Right? 18 MR. FERNSTROM: This particular graph is for 19 full speed operation. 20 MR. HUBER: It's for full speed only? 21 MR. FERNSTROM: Yes, full speed only. It 22 does not take into account operating at reduced

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 332 1

-- 2 MR. HUBER: At which you're running in. 3 MR. FERNSTROM: Right. And if you did, of 4 course, compare at reduced speed, you would get a more 5 favorable economic outcome. 6 MR. POWERS: Can you go back one chart, 7 Gary? Chuck. So you're saying the wire -- I'm sorry. 8 Go back one more. Sorry. Where's the wire to water 9 one? Yes. So you're saying the wire to water on a 10 solid line max speed is about 11 33. 12 MR. FERNSTROM: Yes. 13 MR. POWERS: When I did my quick calculation 14 and special, I put in what I consider efficiency of 15 the VFD, what I considered a functional motor that I 16 had some notes on in these motor books and stuff, and 17 then the efficiency of the pump, I ended up at about 18 36. So it sounds sensible. 19 But what's unique that comes out of that is 20 if you take the pump out of it; right, you're not 21 going to see much change. The savings comes into the 22 permanent magnet --

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 333 1 MR. FERNSTROM: Yes. It's -- 2 MR. POWERS: -- and the VFD combination, 3 which is something we have to consider for pumps in 4 general, but -- 5 MR. FERNSTROM: Exactly, that the savings 6 opportunity here is all associated with the motor, 7 though there's not much difference in the pumps. 8 Okay. Well -- 9 MR. BROOKMAN: Can you go back to the last 10 final slide? That one. I want to look at that one 11 more time. This is your summary slide. I didn't 12 understand the bottom. Is that what -- 13 MR. FERNSTROM: That's the European rating 14 system. So the EEI following in to the ranges 15 determines the class that you get. So you can look up 16 at the EEI and see which class these pumps would fall 17 into. 18 MR. BROOKMAN: Questions on any of this? 19 Louis? 20 MR. STARR: Just on the pricing of where -- 21 your permanent magnet is actually pretty cheap 22 compared to the same price at your induction, which is

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 334 1 pretty -- 2 MR. FERNSTROM: Well -- 3 MR. STARR: -- kind of counterintuitive. 4 MR. FERNSTROM: You know, these prices are 5 what we have paid on the market. So the market 6 effects mask probably to some extent the costs and the 7 position of different manufacturers in the market and 8 so on. And these aren't representative prices. These 9 just happen to be prices associated with the products 10 that we bought and used. 11 MR. STARR: But something doesn't add up 12 because he first chart showed I think 166 versus 86 13 for the induction. This one shows 166 versus 222. Go 14 back to your very first slide if you go back several 15 slides. 16 MR. POWERS: I think, Gary, it's the first 17 one, right there. See, at the top, you say 86 to 167. 18 So the 167 matches your 166. Now, if you go back -- 19 MR. FERNSTROM: Yes. You're right. 20 MR. POWERS: Maybe there's a math error 21 there. So 166.95 and 167 makes sense, but the 222 22

--

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 335 1 MR. HANDZEL: Ninety-five doesn't make 2 sense. 3 MR. HUBER: Yes. That doesn't -- 4 MR. POWERS: I would think a 1/15th 5 horsepower would be more expensive than a 1/25th, but 6 I don't know. I'm not a -- these guys here would give 7 you a -- 8 MR. FERNSTROM: Anyway, I'll promise to 9 double check the numbers. Like I said, this was 10 preliminary. 11 MR. POWERS: Yes, yes. 12 MR. BROOKMAN: Additional comments here? 13 Charlie? 14 MR. CAPPELLINO: Gary, could you just go 15 back to the first slide, very first slide? You kind 16 of hinted at it, and I am just curious if you have put 17 any thought into the fact that, in addition to 18 considering gallons -- what is your vertical scale? 19 MR. FERNSTROM: Gallons pumped per watt 20 hour. 21 MR. CAPPELLINO: Yes. Gallons pumped per 22 watt hour is actually Btu convected or Btu moved per

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 336 1 watt hour because I was just thinking as you go lower 2 in speed, the velocity gets lower. And, to take it to 3 an extreme, if you get to too low a speed, you are 4 actually not moving the water around fast enough in 5 the loop. So I haven't gone through the math, but you 6 want to be I think cautious a little bit in terms of 7 maybe drawing a conclusion that the lowest speed is 8 the most economical selection because you may actually 9 have to run longer to actually -- depending on this 10 system. I don't know enough about it, but I just 11

-- 12 MR. FERNSTROM: So I totally agree. 13 Electrically the lowest speed is the most economical, 14 but it certainly might not be thermally. 15 MR. CAPPELLINO: Thermally, too. 16 MR. FERNSTROM: So this suggests that we 17 might want to have some temperature control on the 18 return that assures us that we're pumping fast enough 19 to maintain the temperature differential we want 20 through the heating system. 21 MR. CAPPELLINO: Right because the overall 22 efficiency in terms of moving heat, which is your

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 337 1 primary function, it might be a different picture. 2 There is probably some optimal speed in there that you 3 would want to conserve, but -- 4 MR. FERNSTROM: Absolutely right. 5 MR. CAPPELLINO: These guys know more than I 6 do. 7 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Steve Rosenstock, EEI. So, 8 in other words, there might be a penalty on the 9 heating system if it's going too slow. 10 MR. FERNSTROM: Yes. 11 MR. ROSENSTOCK: The heating system, 12 regardless of what it is, whether it's oil, gas, 13 propane, or electric, will have to work more at too 14 low of a speed. 15 MR. FERNSTROM: So that is the next step, I 16 think, for us to think about in the context of 17 voluntary programs, labeling, you know, how we can 18 utilize control with these products to save even more 19 than we can by the single small step to a PM motor. 20 But I definitely think there are savings to be had, 21 regardless of the control system used by stepping to a 22 PM motor.

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 338 1 MR. POWERS: Chuck. Charlie sees it. I'm 2 sure Al does. On our axial flows or our single 3 stages, when you slow them down too much, what you end 4 up doing, you get recirculation. And then you end up 5 going through the power. You know, the power goes off 6 the grid because, in fact, like you say, you're not 7 thermally moving the fluid. You're just recirculating 8 it. So it makes the unit look more, but you're 9 actually moving it through the -- 10 MR. FERNSTROM: Well, there's not only the 11 question of considering the thermal effects, but, as 12 you point out, recognizing there is a lower limit 13 beyond which you wouldn't want to go. 14 MR. POWERS: Right. What's cool, though, is 15 you can x-plot this any way you want; right? You can 16 take data. And you can say, "How does it look here? 17 How does it look there?" Good stuff. 18 MR. BROOKMAN: Steve, the other Steve? 19 MR. THOMPSON: So there are a couple things. 20 We start talking about Btu delivering efficiency. 21 Just let's use that really cool word. If we use a 22 delta-p or a delta-t control strategy, that is one

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 339 1 thing, but as soon as you get into the domestic water 2 world, it depends on whether you have a return line or 3 whether you have mixed water underneath the sink 4 because it will search the design to push fluid past 5 that valve. You need to do it really quickly. So 6 that's a whole different control strategy. So just 7 you folks be aware of that. 8 Number two is remember this. We haven't 9 talked about CP2 and CP3 in this. These complexities 10 that we're referring to right now, I've got to say it. 11 And I'd hate myself if I didn't say it right now. 12 This is one of the reasons why this topic is special. 13 It's separate from Lot 11. 14 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. 15 MR. THOMPSON: This is all -- it's 16 different. It's the same, but it's really different. 17 MR. BROOKMAN: Steve Rosenstock. 18 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Steve Rosenstock, EEI. 19 Again, thinking out of the box, you know, now all 20 residential boilers have to have automatic temperature 21 resets. And that's every new boiler, regardless of 22 the --

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 340 1 MR. HANDZEL: It's outdoor resets. 2 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Yes, outdoor. 3 MR. HANDZEL: Outdoor resets. 4 MR. ROSENSTOCK: In the law, it says, 5 "automatic temperature reset." 6 MR. HANDZEL: Okay. 7 MR. ROSENSTOCK: You know, it's outdoor 8 temperature resets. So, again, just thinking about 9 this is that wouldn't that also possibly have an 10 impact on the flow speed of these systems because it 11 might say because of that reset, the flow speed can't 12 be below X or something like that in any case? Again, 13 will it ever get to that low speed? I don't know. 14 MR. HANDZEL: Right. So Mark Handzel, 15 Xylem. So I think, you know, those of us who make 16 three-speed circulators will tell you most of the time 17 the contractor sets it on the fastest speed and walks 18 away and nobody touches it. So is that a sure sign of 19 the least amount of callbacks? You know, he doesn't 20 have to worry. He's not going to hear back from the 21 guy that "Hey, the system is not getting enough heat 22 to me."

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Commerical and Industrial Pumps Working Group Meeting 03-04-2014

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 341 1 So, you know, these are not complex 2 controlled systems. You know, it's a very 3 unsophisticated control method right now. So anything 4 more complex is more cost and more contractor at the 5 time and labor and things like that. 6 MR. FERNSTROM: So in estimating energy 7 savings and doing these things, we have to take into 8 account the human factors. And what the contractors 9 do and don't do and what we might train them to do 10 better is important. 11 Okay. Well, thank you. I will be providing 12 this information to Alison here. And, you know, you 13 are all welcome to talk to us individually and, you 14 know, give us your thoughts on where we are headed 15 with this. 16 MR. BROOKMAN: That was good. 17 MR. FERNSTROM: Thanks. 18 MR. BROOKMAN: Thank you for doing it, 19 especially with no sleep. That was impressive. 20 We have 15 minutes left. Let's talk about 21 tomorrow just for a little bit here, what we are going 22 to try to take up tomorrow. I have on my list -- and

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 342 1 I don't know whether, Greg, you have come up with a 2 sanitary/hygienic, whether you have come up with that 3 kind of a definition or information. 4 MR. CASE: Greg has provided something to 5 me. And I looked at it. I guess what I would 6 probably propose to do is to go to a couple of 7 sanitary pump manufacturers and say, "Does this define 8 your product?" because I don't think any of us make 9 that product. 10 MR. BROOKMAN: I see. 11 MR. TOWSLEY: Yes, we kind of do. We don't 12 sell it here in the U.S. 13 MR. CASE: Okay. 14 MR. TOWSLEY: Some of the wording is from -- 15 MR. CASE: That's exactly -- you would be 16 happy with that? You guys don't make any; right? 17 MALE SPEAKER: No. 18 MR. CASE: I don't know that HI has members, 19 too many members, that make that, but I do know a 20 couple of the manufacturers. And I can try to -- 21 MR. BROOKMAN: So I was generally thinking 22 that many of the largest pump manufacturers are

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Commerical and Industrial Pumps Working Group Meeting 03-04-2014

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 343 1 sitting here at this table. And many of you, most of 2 you, have a pretty diverse portfolio. And if nobody 3 sitting here makes this for the domestic marketplace, 4 does that mean it's so small, that the numbers are so 5 small, that it's not worth this Working Group -- 6 MR. CASE: Yes. 7 MR. BROOKMAN: -- toying with? 8 MR. CASE: It's a very niche market. 9 MR. BROOKMAN: I am just floating some 10 ideas. We will talk about this again tomorrow, of 11 course. But, Greg, I take it by your comment that you 12 won't be able to get this information by tomorrow. 13 MR. CASE: Probably not. 14 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Okay. Just floating 15 on that. 16 MR. CASE: Honestly, Doug, the only thing I 17 can tell you, I don't have contacts at those 18 companies. 19 MR. BROOKMAN: Yes. 20 MR. CASE: So I am going to have to find 21 somebody at those companies to be able to get that 22 information.

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 344 1 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. And then another issue 2 for tomorrow is whether we can make progress on the 3 issue that we talked about for a good period of time 4 today, which is whether we need a clean water 5 definition or whether the decision tree kind of 6 approach is going to be sufficient for compliance and 7 enforcement purposes or whether there is some other 8 thing we haven't uncovered yet. And so put your 9 thinking caps on and see if by tomorrow something 10 springs loose. 11 Joanna? 12 MS. MAUER: Joanna. I was just wondering if 13 DOE has enough information to be able to kind of make 14 a proposal of the decision tree approach. I am 15 thinking that might be helpful. But then, you know, 16 how we would define -- I think the decision tree 17 approach, the idea is that you define all of the 18 things that are excluded. And then you're left with 19 what's included in the -- 20 MR. ADIN: To see if I understand your 21 question, when you say, "proposal," do you mean a 22 definition of accomplish that?

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 345 1 MS. MAUER: Yes. 2 MR. ADIN: Yes. So that's not yet. 3 MS. MAUER: Okay. 4 MR. ADIN: We can certainly think about it 5 and try and make some suggestions tomorrow. The other 6 possibility is that we could -- perhaps if we all 7 agree in principle as to what we are trying to look at 8 for the purposes of this rulemaking, we could agree on 9 that tomorrow with the understanding that we'll 10 revisit the specific wording of the definition or 11 further down the road so that we can start the ball 12 rolling on analysis. And obviously that item alone 13 shouldn't hold up what we do, everything else, that we 14 wouldn't necessarily let it anyway, but, you know, 15 perhaps we can have preliminary agreement about what 16 we agree the scope is in principle and then with the 17 understanding that we'll try and make a decision about 18 some wording for the definition, another route we 19 could take, but we'll try and come up with something 20 tomorrow. 21 MR. BROOKMAN: I would note that our next 22 meeting is March 30-31st, which is 26 days or

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Commerical and Industrial Pumps Working Group Meeting 03-04-2014

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 346 1 something. So before long -- 2 (Simultaneous conversation.) 3 MR. BROOKMAN: Twenty-six-27? 4 MALE SPEAKER: No. It's the 25th and 26th. 5 MR. BROOKMAN: Pardon me. I looked at the 6 wrong place. March 26th-27th. So that's 21 days or 7 something. It's not many days. So if HI is 8 successful following Al's effort at gathering data and 9 that information can get to the consultant team or to 10 members or however we can do that before that meeting, 11 we will have a lot more information at that point for 12 the next meeting. 13 (Simultaneous conversation.) 14 MR. BROOKMAN: And, then, finally, tomorrow 15 -- we're looking ahead to tomorrow, and I'm looking 16 over to Sarah. Test metrics tomorrow; right? 17 MS. WIDDER: Yes. 18 MR. BROOKMAN: Yes? We've got some new 19 information. 20 MS. WIDDER: I wouldn't say new information. 21 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. 22 MS. WIDDER: But we can discuss sort of

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 347 1 start where we started off last time and -- 2 MR. BROOKMAN: We advanced the ball 3 significantly last time. 4 MS. WIDDER: I think we did. And so I am 5 hoping that we can remember all of that and then get 6 to some sort of consensus maybe. 7 MS. WILLIAMS: Was HI asking a list of 8 questions about the metric? No? 9 MR. CASE: No. 10 MS. WILLIAMS: No? Okay. I'm making up 11 things. 12 MR. CASE: We have a couple of questions we 13 can ask when we're discussing the metric. 14 MS. WILLIAMS: Okay. But not like major 15 things we need to research in advance? 16 MR. CASE: No. 17 MS. WILLIAMS: Okay. 18 MR. HUBER: No. I think we're okay. 19 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. And I think that's 20 most of the items on my list. Let me look here. 21 MR. POWERS: Doug 22 MR. BROOKMAN: Yes, Chuck?

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 348 1 MR. POWERS: Could you go down the agenda 2 and tell us which ones we accomplished today? 3 MR. BROOKMAN: Yes. And maybe Alison can 4 help me. Betsy addressed the issue of federal 5 preemption first thing. And I don't think that there 6 was any new information aside from what was in her 7 very clear memo about federal preemption. So we 8 addressed that. 9 Feasibility of timeline if DOE does a 10 follow-on rulemaking. That was also in her memo. And 11 basically she said -- well, I'll let you say it. 12 MS. KOHL: Just from the Department's 13 perspective -- and this is, you know, a program. But 14 there are two routes for that. One, when we finish 15 this one, the Department could then do a new 16 rulemaking or we could discuss with ASRAC or recommend 17 to ASRAC that this group or an appropriately composed 18 working group would do that as a follow-up. 19 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Okay. And then 20 clearly defined scope for this negotiation pump types. 21 We made progress, but we didn't clearly define the 22 scope for this negotiation today.

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 349 1 Aggregated results for their surveys, not 2 available. They include revised shipments estimate, 3 also not available. 4 MS. WILLIAMS: So this will not be work done 5 tomorrow. 6 MR. BROOKMAN: Right. And then the fourth 7 bullet, "Clearly Define Scope for Negotiation 8 Coverage," we still have the issue of clean water 9 outstanding. We have covered most of the exclusions. 10 I think one possibility is this issue of sanitary and 11 hygienic pumps. We still need to deal with that. But 12 I think that most of the exclusions that we have 13 identified, most of the pump types that were on the 14 exclusions list we have now addressed. 15 We have also addressed pretty completely, I 16 think, although maybe not fully, the parameters. 17 We're still not sure what to do with clean water. 18 And then we have not yet defined the covered 19 product. 20 MR. ADIN: Yes, we did. 21 MR. BROOKMAN: We did? Where? 22 MR. ADIN: I think that is referring to the

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 350 1 definition. 2 MR. BROOKMAN: Oh, okay. Okay. That's 3 right. The definition of the pump and all the 4 subdefinitions: bare pump and all of those. 5 MR. ADIN: Right. 6 MR. BROOKMAN: Right. 7 MR. ADIN: So that's done. 8 MR. BROOKMAN: I thought we were talking 9 about further downstream. Okay. 10 And then tomorrow we'll take up the metric 11 and see how far we get with that. And so that's the 12 list of where we are so far. Any other suggestions, 13 ideas, thoughts on what else we should be covering at 14 this point I would welcome. 15 MR. POWERS: Were there any other critical 16 slides here that we needed to talk about that they 17 gave us? 18 MR. BROOKMAN: I scanned through there 19 briefly. And I didn't see anything else. I thought 20 we pretty much covered it. 21 MR. POWERS: And then timing for myself, I 22 have to --

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 351 1 MR. BROOKMAN: Yes. A couple of individuals 2 have approached me already. They need to catch 3 planes, leave here tomorrow, say, 1:00 or 1:30 or so. 4 So we may lose a few members. So any votes we need to 5 take we need to take by, say, 1:00 o'clock in the 6 afternoon. And, irrespective, we plan to begin 7 tomorrow morning at 8:00 a.m. And we'll adjourn at 8 3:00 p.m. 9 And we'll be tomorrow in the big room that 10 we were in previously, 8E. So I presume Emily or 11 someone will be down there bright and early with 12 coffee and croissants at 7:00 a.m.; right? 13 Joanna? 14 MS. MAUER: The next meeting, in March 25th 15 or whatever, is it definitely going to be in 16 D.C.? 17 MR. BROOKMAN: Well, we were going to -- I 18 was going to talk about that tomorrow. 19 MS. MAUER: Okay. 20 MR. BROOKMAN: We haven't decided that yet. 21 We could talk about it now. We have a few minutes. 22 Several individuals, as you will recall, had offered

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 352 1 to have a meeting at their location. Gary had offered 2 San Francisco. And Mark had offered Chicago. And 3 then we had a site visit offer from Chuck as well. 4 And so I floated this past DOE to see 5 whether it was possible. And I think Lucas has gone 6 back and forth with some of his management. And what 7 do you think, Lucas? 8 MR. ADIN: It doesn't look good. 9 MR. BROOKMAN: It doesn't look good. 10 MR. ADIN: Sorry, everybody. 11 MR. STARR: How about Vegas? 12 MR. FERNSTROM: This is Gary. Lucas, 13 frankly, we would rather have you spend the money on 14 good analysis than -- 15 MR. ADIN: I don't know if taking from one 16 is taking from the other. 17 MR. BROOKMAN: For the record, it's a really 18 generous and thoughtful thing for you to offer to host 19 a meeting. And you never know. In the future, maybe 20 it will be possible, maybe not in the course of this 21 Working Group meeting, but you never know about 22 others. So thanks for that.

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 353 1 And that I believe is all that I wanted to 2 cover. It is almost 5:00 o'clock. I will take now 3 closing remarks. Any remarks from any member of the 4 Working Group? 5 MR. FERNSTROM: Well, this is Gary. I think 6 we made a lot of progress today. Congratulations to 7 everybody. 8 MR. BROOKMAN: Thank you, Gary. Other 9 comments? I am also pleased. We gained a lot of 10 ground today. I look forward to seeing you all at 11 8:00 a.m. tomorrow in 8E, where we met before. Thanks 12 a lot. Be careful. It's still slippery out there. 13 (Whereupon, at 4:52 p.m., the 14 Commercial and Industrial Pumps 15 Working Group was recessed.) 16 17 18 19 20 21 22

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1 CERTIFICATE OF TRANSCRIPTION 2 3 I, SARAH VEACH, hereby certify that I am not the Court 4 Reporter who reported the following proceeding and 5 that I have typed the transcript of this proceeding 6 using the Court Reporter's notes and recordings. The 7 foregoing/attached transcript is a true, correct and 8 complete transcription of said proceeding. 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22

# ~JM D

ate Transcriptionist

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1 CERTIFICATE OF COURT REPORTER 2 3 I, CHAZ BENNETT, the Court Reporter before 4 whom the foregoing proceeding was taken, do hereby 5 certify that the proceeding was recorded by me; that 6 the proceeding was thereafter reduced to typewriting 7 under my direction; that said transcript is a true and 8 accurate record of the proceeding; that I am neither 9 related to nor employed by any of the parties to this 10 proceeding; and, further, that I have no financial 11 interest in this proceeding. 1 2 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 CHAZ BENNETT Digital Court Reporter



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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 $ $167 321:5 $86 321:6 0 03 291:16 1 1 192:6 226:6 230:3 237:17 1,000 207:18,21 1,000-megawatt 306:19 1,200 192:21 198:8,16 219:14,17 220:19 235:10,15,17 1,400 133:8 1,450 207:2 211:7 1,750 216:4,7 1,780 219:1,8 1,800 195:16 197:18 198:11 201:6 213:10,16,21 214:15 215:4,22 217:2,13 219:14 222:5 224:2,4,16 232:8,12,19 233:19 234:14 235:12,13,16 237:21 1.0 284:17 1.28 283:17 305:10 1.5 306:9 1.6 282:18 306:12 308:12 309:15,17,18 1/15th 335:4

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 107:12,17,19 108:5,21 109:12,17,21 110:4,7 113:5,16,18,20 114:1,7 119:12,19 120:21 129:11,16 133:14 134:10 135:15 136:6 137:2,6,9 139:3,7,13 141:10,13 142:9,11,16 143:4 149:2,9,12,14,22 150:3,5,7,13 151:1,3,6,9,14 153:3,14,17,21 154:7 158:8,11,13,15,1 7 159:8 160:2,21 162:18,22 164:14,16,17 166:12,14,20 167:5,16 171:7,18 172:2 176:2 179:21 184:1 191:9,12 192:2 193:8 194:3 198:18 199:11 211:13,20 212:6 213:8 217:18 218:2,6 221:21 222:7 231:15 233:4 234:9,11,18 235:3,7 236:16,22 242:22 243:4 244:13 246:10 263:20 264:2 281:15 295:5 309:1,4,7,20 344:20 345:2,4 349:20,22 350:5,7 352:8,10,15 adjourn 351:7 adjust292:3 administrative 18:1 administratively 17:19 admit 14:1 adopt170:8 adopted 167:11 adopting 145:20 adopts 145:8 advance347:15 advanced 269:18 347:2 advantage212:16 advice 120:1 advisement

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BIS 267:8,9,18 268:14 280:17 bit11:9 24:1 61:19 62:16 65:3 69:3 76:18 85:13 86:3 111:10 118:19 122:2 125:22 131:21 142:19 143:13 204:19 213:6 221:22 224:21 230:12 241:5 262:4 273:10 313:5,19 336:6 341:21 blade 184:18 blades 195:12 blah 140:6 171:5 blanche 114:17 block 328:19 blocks 254:11 blue 315:2,17 318:17 322:14 blunt323:22 board 38:10 208:2 Bob 4:16 10:9 13:18 310:22 311:1,20 330:22 bodies 29:4,6,9 35:6 body44:8 254:11 boiler52:22 325:19 339:21 boilers 140:19,22 339:20 bolt40:3 bolting 40:3 bona 126:11 books 191:22 192:5 332:16 booster263:13 BOTELER2:7 102:4,7,10 bother198:14 bottom12:18 26:2 121:1,9 164:13 316:1,3 324:20 326:11,18 333:12 bought310:20 316:22 334:10 boundaries 46:11 boundary86:11 bowl 130:15,21 131:8,9 133:3 135:3 188:14,19 237:21 320:15 bowls 210:4 box32:4 72:16,17,18 75:7,8 118:14 123:14 147:9 339:19 boxes 34:14 boy320:3 brain 200:11 brand 292:14 301:3 break 67:7 81:16,17 83:17 143:20 144:6,10 194:6 238:19 300:19 Brent6:1 bridge 239:15,17 brief 276:21 briefly312:17

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### Capital Reporting Company

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 2 81:19 82:9,20 85:9,17 86:5,19,20 87:3 88:16,18 89:4 90:15,20,22 93:6,9 95:14,17,18 98:4,9 100:12 103:1,10,19 104:2,8,13 105:9,20 106:3,6,9 108:1,5 112:8 113:22 115:4,5,22 118:10 119:3,12 120:3 124:2 125:7,21 128:5,6 135:16 136:17 137:16 138:1,20 139:1,3,7,8,9,22 140:2 141:18,19,22 142:1,17 144:6,10 145:8,19 150:8,11 152:22 153:14,15 155:14 157:20,22 158:11,13,14,22 160:2,14 162:8 164:2 166:11 169:12,16,20 170:7 175:22 176:13,14 177:19,20 179:2 180:2,3,4 181:1,13 182:15 185:8,19 189:6,22 190:3,4,7 191:14 193:10 195:10 201:11,21 203:16 204:21 205:9,22 206:4,6 212:1,6 213:10,13 216:2,9 217:9,12,14 220:5,19,20,21 224:3,4,17 225:6 227:19 228:5,6 232:6,8,12 233:5,6 234:20,22 235:9,10,13,14,1 9 237:1 239:6,18,21 242:20 243:12 244:10 245:9 246:2,5,12 247:12 250:12 251:18 254:20 256:1 260:6 261:8 267:9 268:8,14 272:11,19 273:18,19,20 275:19 276:4 278:8 282:9,10 284:1,2,5,9 285:3,9 288:5 289:21 292:4 293:3,5,6 294:14 295:6,13,15,16 297:7 298:7 299:15 301:3,18 302:18,22 303:4 308:3,4,13 311:12 313:14,16 315:21 318:2,19 320:18 324:8,12 325:4 326:10,18 327:4,7,13,16 328:22 329:20 330:6 331:20 333:1 334:16 337:9,12 339:13,15,16

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### Capital Reporting Company

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### Capital Reporting Company

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 Poland28:7 pole 188:13 191:5 192:17 193:1,6 194:12 197:2 207:5 poles 321:16 pond 97:12 pool145:9,10 151:17 242:15,19 243:11,16,21 244:4 245:4,14 246:20 247:22 248:8 249:7,18,20 250:13 252:10 255:3 256:18 257:1,11,17 259:6 260:10,17,18,19, 21 262:1,3,6,8 pool-related 263:12 pools 244:6,10 248:17 249:12 250:3 263:11 portfolio 343:2 portion 139:8 327:2 pose 124:19 186:4 position 8:18 10:5 54:10 106:13 295:20 334:7 positive 125:20 249:9 possibilities 20:20 122:4 possibility 21:8 108:21 148:1 345:6 349:10 possible 46:15 121:19 135:18 144:18 148:3,16 203:16 284:5 304:11 352:5,20 possibly 138:13 219:15 293:7,11 340:9 postpone 9:17 potential14:14 22:15 73:18 122:12 166:12 291:9 305:7 307:17 potentially57:3 113:19 197:11 223:13 237:2 291:16 Potts 2:19 23:8,9,12 42:14 156:20,21 157:11,15 177:13,14 178:19,21,22 179:7,9,11,15 324:6 power2:10 39:11 59:5 61:5,10,13,14,16 62:4,18 65:9,18 98:17,19 188:12 202:6,7 212:7 215:10,16 228:10,11 237:18 287:3,4,19 288:2 302:3 306:13,18 323:2 326:9,22 327:1,10,17 328:1,4 338:5 powered 194:6 powers 2:20 5:4 8:6,11 9:3,8 20:1 22:20 23:5,15 26:14 27:8 28:19 29:19,21 30:16,20 31:1,17,19 32:13,17 33:15,22 34:5,9,12,18,21 36:3 37:7,22 38:3,13,15 40:15 41:4,15 42:5,12,16 43:10,16 44:5,7,10,13 45:3 47:2,13,19,21 48:2,7,10,14,18, 22 49:4,10,13,22 50:2 51:11,18 52:5 53:5,10,21 55:16 66:11,14,21 67:3,9,15 68:2 69:22 70:3,6,9,12,15,2 1 71:1,11 75:6,12 83:7 93:20 94:8 96:3,7 98:6,12,15,19 99:1,10,14,16 101:14 102:6,9 105:4,7 106:1 114:10,16,20 115:3,10 122:16 124:1,7 125:2,5 126:19 131:11,15 132:1,12 134:20 135:9 139:15 140:4 151:11 154:1,8,17 155:1,7,10,16,19 156:8,11 163:5,8,10

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### Capital Reporting Company

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 275:2,7,12,21 276:12,16 278:5 279:2,5,9,13,16 280:7 281:4,7 283:20 284:2,6 305:13,22 306:5,7 307:2,8,10,12 308:6,11,17 309:8,12,16,18 317:14,19 318:5,11 319:3,7,11,15,18 320:2,7,18 321:10,17,21 322:11 324:14,19 326:2,4 329:9,16 332:6,13 333:2 334:16,20 335:4,11 338:1,14 347:21 348:1 350:15,21 practical 185:2 practicalities 112:1 practicality

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 126:12,21 127:3 136:5,12,17,18,2 0,21 137:15,18,19 138:5,8,13,14,17 ,18 139:1,4,8,9,11,2 0 140:6,9 141:18,19,22 144:18 145:10 146:18 148:18 154:2 156:6 157:1,6,10,19,22 158:22 159:4 160:8,10,12,16 161:18,20 162:15 163:12,14,15 165:7 170:9 171:1,2,9,14 172:6,13,14 173:16,19 175:8,9,19 177:6 179:1,17 180:2,11 181:2,6 182:3 183:1,12 185:10 186:3,6 194:20 195:11 197:21 200:15 201:13 202:14 210:17 211:15 212:17 217:5,9,12 219:7,16,17,18 220:12 221:13 222:2 224:4 227:13 229:6 230:21 233:5,8,17 234:13,19 241:11 242:14,15 245:8 246:11,20 247:1,11,12 248:1 249:15 250:18 251:5,6 252:22 253:14 254:4,11,14 255:4 257:1,11 260:19,21 261:7,10 262:1,3,6,12 265:8,11 267:6,7 268:19 269:2 273:20 276:4 292:1 294:15,16 295:17 300:19 301:4 302:22 306:9 307:19 316:6,12,13 317:10 321:14,15 323:10,12 326:20 328:10 332:17,20 342:7,22 348:20 349:13 350:3,4 pumped314:18 315:8 335:19,21 pumping93:1 95:13,14 106:6 111:8 113:10 151:17 314:20 315:21 319:21 336:18 pumps 12:4 16:3,9 17:7 18:2,7,8,17 19:11,18 23:18,19 24:8 25:13 26:3,8,9,11,15 31:13 35:2,5 36:17 37:10,14 38:12,15 39:14,17,21 40:11 45:2 46:13,18 47:1,6,12 52:12 53:20 54:1 56:2,7

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### Capital Reporting Company

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301:18 simply147:15 242:19 Simultaneous 178:9 193:15 201:8 202:19 208:9 252:1 346:2,13 single 64:3,10,11 104:9,11 121:11 247:10 249:2 252:11 337:19 338:2 single-phase 244:4 single-phased 249:5 singles 226:3 single-stage62:19 64:1 sink 339:3 sit20:14 99:4 site 50:9 131:19 291:19 292:17 352:3 sits 125:8 sitting45:11 54:11,14 105:20 106:3 249:18 343:1,3 situation 85:7 218:22 243:5 253:14 276:4 295:3,5 305:16 317:8 six19:8 42:10 51:15 116:3 132:1 188:13,19 189:6 194:12,14 203:10 216:22

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315:17,19 317:22 318:22 321:4 322:16 328:1 332:10 solids 77:6 78:9 79:18 87:12 110:20 111:1 116:13 150:15,20 151:17 152:5,11,15 153:1 154:3,10,11,12 155:3,4,5 159:2 solids-handling 80:22 149:5,10 Solutions 2:3 4:11 somebody54:21 89:14,20 90:5 95:10 96:8,20 99:2 105:7 107:16 108:2 109:9 125:8 127:5 168:1,3,15 175:16 192:18,22 211:9 272:9 275:9 330:15 343:21 somebody's 168:4 someone 14:6 29:15 62:17 80:11 86:18 87:19 89:11 91:6 92:22 97:17 124:1 176:6 203:2 271:8 351:11 somewhat155:13 267:22 somewhere 98:16 199:21 319:11 sorry 10:8 34:21 35:14 49:12 50:2 52:18 53:5 57:20 58:5 65:1 69:22 77:20 101:2 109:18 116:2 134:15 149:7 151:22 155:2 164:17 166:21 170:15,19 175:1 178:8 181:4 185:21 197:7 245:1 247:18 252:2 259:5 260:14 281:4 332:7,8 352:10 sort39:8 50:22 62:3,4 87:17 96:1,2 97:8 104:1 107:6,10 108:11,12 124:22 126:18 127:14 179:17 182:22 224:21 230:22 240:7 263:14 280:11 292:6 322:5 328:3 331:6,9 346:22 347:6 sorts 185:3 sounded 80:6 sounds 17:15,19 19:16 50:22 121:10 188:1 208:1 256:19 257:2 332:18 source26:17 27:10 291:20 292:18 sources 264:21 space49:10 191:2 spas 263:13 speak 14:9 19:15

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215:9,14 217:16 218:13,14 221:3,9,15,16,20 222:2 230:21 233:7 234:16,19 235:5 244:9 251:3 288:8,9 315:1,2,4,8,9,12 316:9 317:16 318:12 319:20 320:3,5 321:8,9 322:2,8,9 323:21 325:17 328:4 331:8,19,20,21 332:4,10 336:2,3,7,13 337:2,14 340:10,11,13,17 speeds 16:14 130:15 133:3 188:13 191:16,19 197:3,13 207:5 217:6,20 218:5 219:8 220:19,21 224:16 233:2,3,6 234:15,20 315:1 321:16 323:17 328:3 331:16 spend 116:3 310:18 352:13 spending 73:19 298:6 spent111:14 split42:9 269:22 271:9,15 272:5,8,15,16,17 276:8 280:19 281:2 294:20,22 297:11 spoke 21:19 spread 311:5

springs 344:10 square 32:5 317:19 319:20 squeeze164:13 staffed 127:15 stage62:19 64:10,11 195:14 208:22 209:4,8 stages 62:16,20 63:2,16,17 64:3,9,10,13,14, 16 65:10 208:13 209:10,21,22 210:2,13 273:22 338:3 stainless 42:13 Stainlesses 218:15 stairs 239:1 stakes 126:5 stamp 44:20 94:16 96:2 stand 117:1,3 160:8 313:18 standard 17:10 25:16 48:16 64:8 65:10 74:8 77:21 84:18,20 87:13 99:8 103:1,2,7 104:11 107:4,5,14 137:11 140:18,21 180:5,7 200:5 204:20 222:3,4 223:2 233:9 257:9 262:1 302:1,9 324:1 standards 1:7 2:17 5:2 12:5 18:13

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### Capital Reporting Company

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### Capital Reporting Company

Commerical and Industrial Pumps Working Group Meeting 03-04-2014 Page 65

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