Capital Reporting Company

Commerical and Industrial Pumps Working Group Meeting 03-04-2014

(866) 448 - DEPO

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1

 DEPARTMENT OF ENERGY

 OFFICE OF ENERGY EFFICIENCY AND RENEWABLE ENERGY

 APPLIANCE STANDARDS AND RULEMAKING

 FEDERAL ADVISORY COMMITTEE

 COMMERCIAL AND INDUSTRIAL PUMPS WORKING GROUP

 U.S. Department of Energy

 Forrestal Building

 1000 Independence Avenue, S.W.

 Washington, D.C. 20585

 Tuesday, March 4, 2014

 9:20 a.m.

Reported by: Chaz Bennett,

 Capital Reporting Company
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1 A P P E A R A N C E S

2 FACILITATOR

3 DOUG BROOKMAN, Public Solutions

4 PARTICIPANTS

5 LUCAS ADIN, DOE

6 ROBERT BARBOUR, TACO

7 ROB BOTELER, Nidec

8 CHARLES CAPPELLINO, ITT Corporation

9 GREG CASE, Hydraulic Institute

10 TOM ECKMAN, Northwest Power and Conservation

 Council (via telephone)

11

GARY FERNSTROM, California IOUs

12

JEREMIAH FREEMAN, New West Technologies

13

MARK HANDZEL, Xylem

14

ALBERT HUBER, Patterson Pump

15

BETSY KOHL, DOE General Counsel

16

PAUL LIN, Regal Beloit

17

JOANNA MAUER, Appliance Standards Awareness

18 Project

19 DOUGLAS POTTS, American Water

20 CHARLES POWERS, Flowserve Corporation

21 CALLIE REIS, Navigant

22 STEVE ROSENSTOCK, Edison Electric Institute (EEI)
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1 A P P E A R A N C E S

2 LOUIS STARR, Northwest Energy Efficiency Alliance

 (NEEA)

3

STEVE THOMPSON, TACO

4

GREG TOWSLEY, Grundfos USA

5

MEG WALTNER, Natural Resources Defense Council

6 (via telephone)

7 DAN WEINTRAUB, Navigant

8 SARAH WIDDER, Pacific Northwest National Lab

9 ALISON WILLIAMS, Lawrence Berkeley National Lab

10

11

12 * * * * *

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22
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1 P R O C E E D I N G S

2 MR. BROOKMAN: Good morning, everyone.

3 Welcome. Glad to see you here. Are you picking up

4 okay?

5 THE REPORTER: Yes.

6 MR. BROOKMAN: Ok. This is the Commercial

7 and Industrial Pumps negotiated rulemaking Working

8 Group. Today is March 4th, 2014 here in Washington,

9 D.C. This is the third meeting of this Working Group.

10 Let me welcome you this morning.

11 My name is Doug Brookman, Public Solutions

12 in Baltimore. Let's just start with introductions

13 around the room. And I'll start to my immediate

14 right. Please say your name and organizational

15 affiliation.

16 MR. BARBOUR: Bob Barbour, TACO.

17 MR. HUBER: Al Huber, Patterson Pump.

18 MR. HANDZEL: Mark Handzel with Xylem.

19 MR. CASE: Greg Case, Hydraulic Institute.

20 MR. CAPPELLINO: Charlie Cappellino, ITT

21 Corporation.

22 MR. STARR: Louis Starr, NEEA.
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1 MS. MAUER: Joanna Mauer at Appliance

2 Standards Awareness Project.

3 MR. LIN: Paul Lin with Regal Beloit.

4 MR. POWERS: Chuck Powers, Flowserve

5 Corporation.

6 MS. KOHL: Betsy Kohl, DOE general counsel.

7 MR. ADIN: Lucas Adin, DOE.

8 MR. BROOKMAN: Sarah?

9 MS. WIDDER: Sarah Widder, Pacific Northwest

10 National Lab.

11 MS. WILLIAMS: Alison Williams, Lawrence

12 Berkeley National Lab.

13 Mr. Thompson: Steve Thompson, TACO

14 MR. BROOKMAN: Thank you.

15 Jeremiah, introduce yourself.

16 MR. FREEMAN: Oh. Jeremiah Freeman, New

17 West Technologies.

18 MR. BROOKMAN: Thank you.

19 And we have a few individuals who are

20 joining us via the web, I believe.

21 MR. FREEMAN: Yes, two members. We have Meg

22 Waltner on the line and Tom Eckman. They're unmuted.
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1 And then we also have Al Iseppon, Brent McManis, and

2 Erica Johnson.

3 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Welcome. Thanks to

4 all of you for joining us. We have had some bad

5 weather here on the East Coast, as anybody who tried

6 to travel in here has found out. Yesterday the

7 Department of Energy was closed; correct?

8 MALE SPEAKER: Yes.

9 MR. BROOKMAN: And I think all the federal

10 agencies were closed yesterday, so some disruptions

11 due to weather. And some of the members have not been

12 able to travel. We are expecting one or two

13 additional members to be joining us perhaps as the day

14 goes on today. In any event, we are glad you are here

15 and apologies for the unaccommodative weather.

16 All of you received a packet of information

17 when we came in this morning. If you take a peek at

18 the first page of that packet, Lucas and I consulted

19 before the meeting. We don't have a specific agenda

20 for the meeting, but we have these agenda elements as

21 listed here on page -- it would be page 2 of this

22 meeting's summary -- and wanted to just have a general
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1 discussion here at the front end about the sequencing

2 on this.

3 You can see the first item, "Federal

4 Preemption." Betsy Kohl sent around a memo in which

5 she addressed the issue of federal preemption.

6 Perhaps we could start with that and have some

7 additional discussion on that issue.

8 The "Feasibility Timeline if DOE Does a

9 Follow-on Rulemaking," that was also addressed in

10 Betsy's memo. So maybe those two items would be a

11 place to start.

12 And then "Define Scope of the Negotiation,"

13 that would be a follow-on from the last meeting that

14 we had and "Clearly Define Scope for Negotiation

15 Coverage" and then "Define Covered Product." And

16 then, in addition, as you see, "Metrics."

17 I don't have any strong feelings about the

18 sequence here except that maybe we'll start with

19 Betsy. Any additional thoughts on the sequence? It

20 was productive last time to do exclusions and

21 parameters before we zeroed in on this colorful sheet,

22 "Scope of Negotiations."
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1 And, Chuck, you sent a detailed memo giving

2 your recommendations. So maybe that's another thing

3 that we should probably have near the top of the list.

4 Any additional thoughts before we kind of launch into

5 this chart?

6 MR. POWERS: Just one point is I think it's

7 important that we do understand which products or

8 which grouping before we get into other discussions.

9 That way we know what we're dealing with; right?

10 MR. BROOKMAN: Right.

11 MR. POWERS: There may be some impact to

12 that. It's up to the team.

13 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Lucas?

14 MR. ADIN: Yes. I think that's what we had

15 in mind, is we go back in the scope up front and see

16 if we can reach some resolution on what we are going

17 to do on that. I don't know if we are necessarily

18 going to be in a position to vote today since not

19 everyone is here. I mean, we have got a couple online,

20 but I don't know how comfortable folks would be doing

21 an actual vote. I mean, we put "Vote" up there, but we

22 can do that either today or tomorrow, whenever. So we
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1 can cover as much ground as we feel comfortable

2 covering today.

3 MR. POWERS: My only view of that would be

4 that if we do get a basic understanding of what that

5 is going to be, we don't have to rehash that again

6 tomorrow; right?

7 MR. BROOKMAN: Yes.

8 MR. POWERS: In other words, a vote is a

9 vote, not necessarily like tomorrow but not actually

10 regurgitate everything five more times.

11 MR. ADIN: Right, sure, sure. Okay.

12 MR. BROOKMAN: So, Chuck, thank you.

13 That was Chuck. And now to Louis?

14 MR. STARR: So I think Gary -- on the

15 circulator stuff, maybe we can put that off until

16 tomorrow or whenever. Gary did discuss some data from

17 his California thing. So maybe we can postpone that

18 conversation so we don't have to rehash it, but maybe

19 we can cover the other things that we have and talk

20 about that stuff.

21 MR. BROOKMAN: Good. Okay. Thank you,

22 Louis.
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1 Then, Betsy, do you want to start?

2 MS. KOHL: I don't have anything more --

3 MR. BROOKMAN: To add?

4 MS. KOHL: -- to say on the written piece.

5 This is the Department's legal position.

6 MR. BROOKMAN: Do we have questions related

7 to what Betsy has written here?

8 MR. BARBOUR: Is that in this -- I'm sorry.

9 This is Bob Barbour. Was that sent out to all of us?

10 MS. KOHL: It's on SharePoint.

11 MR. BARBOUR: I saw your email. I didn't

12 know if it was the same document.

13 MR. BROOKMAN: Yes. And, Betsy, the one

14 thing, I thought you covered preemption quite clearly.

15 And then on the issue of if DOE does a follow-on

16 feasibility timeline if DOE does a follow-on

17 rulemaking, I believe you said the Department would be

18 receptive to this, especially if ASRAC wanted to do it

19 but you didn't in that memo make any kind of a

20 commitment about a timeline.

21 MR. ADIN: Well, I mean, we can't foresee

22 what ASRAC might be willing to approve, obviously. So
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1 as far as timeline goes, I mean, I think the most

2 expeditious process would likely be if ASRAC were to

3 approve the continuation of this Working Group to

4 consider these other types as a follow-on to this

5 rule, which conceivably they could do.

6 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay.

7 MR. ADIN: And if that were to not happen,

8 then DOE would proceed by its regular process and

9 conduct a rulemaking that way, which is a little bit

10 more likely of the process.

11 MR. BROOKMAN: Yes. Okay.

12 MR. ADIN: Conceivably we could take it up

13 immediately following the conclusion of this

14 proceeding.

15 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Yes?

16 MR. HANDZEL: Mark Handzel from Xylem, just

17 to ask questions on that.

18 MR. ADIN: Yes.

19 MR. HANDZEL: So after this meeting, if we

20 decide to do circulators as a separate rulemaking, we

21 would have to take it to ASRAC and get them to vote

22 and approve a separate rulemaking?
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1 MR. ADIN: Yes, because ASRAC only

2 authorized this group to do a certain -- so once we

3 exclude all of these other things from the scope of

4 the rule, we do one rulemaking on pumps, to the extent

5 we want to do a separate follow-on standards

6 rulemaking, they have to give us authorization to do -

7 -

8 MR. HANDZEL: Right. Mark Handzel from

9 Xylem again. But they didn't really define what the

10 scope of this rulemaking was, but I guess because if

11 we want to have a second one, we have to -- okay.

12 MR. ADIN: That's my understanding.

13 MR. HANDZEL: Okay.

14 MR. ADIN: I mean, we can get some further

15 clarification if we need it, but, you know, based on

16 my discussions with folks --

17 MR. HANDZEL: So we can't start a separate

18 working group without their approval is the bottom

19 line.

20 MR. ADIN: Yes, that's my understanding.

21 MR. HANDZEL: Okay. Right.

22 MR. HUBER: Is it your --
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1 MR. BROOKMAN: Al Huber?

2 MR. HUBER: Huber, Patterson. Is it your

3 feeling that they will probably authorize or not

4 authorize or do you have a feeling one way or the

5 other?

6 MR. ADIN: No, no. I don't have a sense

7 right now. I mean, it just came up. So I don't.

8 MS. KOHL: We wouldn't know until they vote.

9 MR. ADIN: Right.

10 MR. HUBER: When would that be?

11 MR. HANDZEL: Yes. Do you know when the

12 next meeting is?

13 MR. ADIN: I think --

14 MS. KOHL: We can check. Maybe when we get

15 back, we can --

16 MR. ADIN: Yes. It's in a couple of months,

17 I believe.

18 MR. BROOKMAN: Bob Barbour?

19 MR. BARBOUR: Well, wouldn't they take a

20 recommendation from this group under advisement as to

21 how it has to happen?

22 MR. ADIN: I think so, yes. Yes. I have to
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Commerical and Industrial Pumps Working Group Meeting 03-04-2014

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1 admit I'm not 100 percent familiar with exactly how

2 the process works, but yes, that's my understanding is

3 that we make a recommendation.

4 MR. BROOKMAN: So that was Lucas speaking.

5 I'm going to keep trying to create a cogent record

6 here. Is someone online?

7 MR. ADIN: That's Tom.

8 MR. HUBER: Tom.

9 MR. BROOKMAN: Tom Eckman, please speak up.

10 MR. ECKMAN: Yes. Doug, can you hear me?

11 MR. BROOKMAN: We hear you fine. You're

12 coming in good.

13 MR. ECKMAN: Great. ASRAC has two days out

14 there for potential meetings: either March 19th or

15 April 14th. It hasn't been arrived at yet. So if we

16 were to I think take a proposal to them at that

17 meeting following this one, we could get pretty rapid

18 consideration of that option.

19 MR. BROOKMAN: Great.

20 MR. ECKMAN: So as the ASRAC member on the

21 Committee, I would be glad to take that forward if

22 there is a proposal we could come to agreement on.
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1 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Thank you, Tom. I'm

2 glad you could join us via the phone.

3 And, Meg, I understand you are on the phone

4 as well?

5 (No response.)

6 MR. BROOKMAN: Maybe she is muted. Okay.

7 But we're glad you could join us.

8 Louis Starr?

9 MR. STARR: So one of the things that the

10 idea of -- Louis Starr with NEEA -- the idea of making

11 this into a separate rulemaking, I'm trying to

12 understand the benefit or why we might do that or what

13 is the DOE's thinking in explaining these are the two

14 separate rulemakings as far as like the circulators

15 and this scope for the -- I hate to say of Lot 11 but

16 --

17 MR. ADIN: Right.

18 MR. BROOKMAN: Lucas?

19 MR. ADIN: Well, speaking for DOE's part, it

20 is, in large part, a matter of timing. I think we had

21 a vision for how we would like to see this proceed and

22 a certain timeline, which we had discussed, you know,
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1 as part of the initial discussions in this group. And

2 our sense was that, at least for the main group of

3 pumps that we're considering, the Lot 11, it was most

4 likely to be feasible to accomplish rulemaking within

5 that timeline with those, that with circulators, it

6 seemed like there might be additional data that we

7 need to gather or just there was a lot less that we

8 knew. And so it might unnecessarily delay progress on

9 achieving energy savings for those other pumps if we

10 did try to tackle circulators up front. So I think

11 that is generally --

12 MR. BROOKMAN: Al Huber?

13 MR. HUBER: From our perspective, Louis,

14 because the motor speeds are so different and because

15 it's a different animal, instead of having a separate

16 VFD and a separate motor, it's all combined into one

17 unit, trying to write I think a rulemaking around what

18 we're trying to write it around plus that, trying to

19 find a way to marry that in there, we think that the

20 language would be difficult, maybe confusing, and may

21 cause issues. So that was our feeling. It would be

22 better as a separate. And I think we probably should
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1 write that up if we would want to make that proposal,

2 as to our reasons for that, to present that to ASRAC.

3 MR. BROOKMAN: Louis, follow-on?

4 MR. STARR: So Louis Starr with NEEA, kind

5 of what Al is talking about there, in theory, though,

6 that could happen. In other words, you have a

7 requirement for a certain class of pumps that are

8 different. So, in other words, the requirements to

9 Lot 11 that you're talking about could be ones that

10 are standard just out to a certain way. And then the

11 circulators could be developed with a set of

12 regulations run another way.

13 MR. ADIN: Right.

14 MR. STARR: So, essentially, it's really

15 just -- I think it sounds like it's more a question of

16 timing, mainly gathering data and other things, more

17 to support information necessary to make a rulemaking.

18 MR. ADIN: Yes.

19 MR. STARR: It sounds like administratively

20 it's not necessarily a problem so much other than

21 getting information necessary to make the --

22 MR. ADIN: Right. So from a legal and
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1 administrative standpoint, I think that's something we

2 can deal with; right, the fact that these pumps are

3 different. And we can write a regulation that

4 addresses each type of pump appropriately.

5 So I don't know that for DOE's part, we're

6 as concerned about that part of it. It's more that

7 because these pumps are considerably different than a

8 lot of the other pumps we're looking at for this rule.

9 The market is different. The economic aspects of

10 making them more efficient might be different. And

11 there's a lot of data that we just don't have. You

12 know, the aspects of data collection if we need for

13 establishing that any standards that we're considering

14 are technologically feasible and economically

15 justified for DOE's analytical purposes could be

16 longer or just considerably different than it would be

17 for these other pumps. So I think that was the main

18 concern that we had up front --

19 MR. BROOKMAN: So that was Lucas and back to

20 --

21 MR. ADIN: -- with respect to --

22 MR. BROOKMAN: Lucas. Now back to Louis.
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1 MR. STARR: So Louis Starr with NEEA. One of

2 my thoughts, though, too, is the circulators -- I'm

3 thinking of the group that are at this table. Let's

4 say 4 of 20 people.

5 (inaudible)

6 But I was also wondering in terms of the time element

7 that you have. These meetings are going to be seven

8 to eight meetings inside of six months. And so that

9 if you continue on to the circulator rule, you could

10 mirror that exact same amount of time. Yet, the

11 amount of pumps that people are -- you know, the

12 manufacturer, like Flowserve -- or does Flowserve want

13 to really come here and talk about circulators? They

14 don't actually make any; right? So I kind of wonder

15 if you -- well, Charles, you can speak to that, but in

16 general, it sounds like the interest if you go on to

17 another ASRAC rulemaking, it's a very small subset of

18 all the pumps.

19 MR. ADIN: Yes.

20 MR. STARR: And I kind of wonder about the

21 practicality of how that Working Group might actually

22 work.
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1 MR. POWERS: We think, from a Flowserve

2 standpoint, the aspects to that may affect those

3 products down the road. Decisions on it may affect

4 it.

5 Secondly, what we're responding to here is -

6 - it doesn't say what we're going to do in some other

7 countries and some other places. So I think what

8 we're dealing with is strictly U.S. So if we are

9 engaged -- and I'm not authorized to say at this point

10 -- in something in another country, it wouldn't affect

11 it anyway but a good basis to manufacturing -- and we

12 talked about that before.

13 So, again, I think the people at the table

14 have more to say about it. And I'll sit and listen.

15 But it could impact other things. And I think we need

16 to stay engaged just to be aware of how we change it.

17 MR. BROOKMAN: So that was Chuck. Now to

18 Charlie?

19 MR. CAPPELLINO: Charlie Cappellino, ITT. I

20 guess there are two possibilities here. One, the

21 Committee could stay intact in terms of the

22 membership, which, actually, you could basically --
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1 MR. BROOKMAN: Configure.

2 MR. CAPPELLINO: -- reset the membership of

3 the Committee depending on the scope of --

4 MR. BROOKMAN: Yes.

5 MR. CAPPELLINO: -- the next rulemaking. So

6 I'm not saying one way or another what ITT would

7 choose to do, but certainly that would be a

8 possibility.

9 MR. BROOKMAN: Yes.

10 MR. ADIN: Yes. I mean, Tom will correct me

11 if I'm wrong, I'm sure, but I think my understanding

12 is that, even if the Working Group is reapproved to do

13 another rule, it doesn't mean that the membership is

14 fixed. I think the composition of the group can

15 change.

16 MR. BROOKMAN: Al Huber? That was Lucas.

17 Now to Al Huber?

18 MR. HUBER: I think several meetings ago, I

19 spoke for the industry and said the industry was

20 willing to do this and invest the time. And we are as

21 an industry. So there will be no problem in us

22 supporting whatever time is necessary to do a
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1 rulemaking on circulators.

2 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Good. So that was a

3 useful conversation. Final comments before we move on

4 from this? Louis, it was a good idea. Gary is

5 intimately involved in these issues of circulators.

6 So we won't try and do anything specific on that until

7 tomorrow or whenever he shows up.

8 Maybe we should go from here to talking

9 about exclusions. And maybe we should look at the

10 memo that Chuck provided. Are you passing the slides?

11 MS. WILLIAMS: I was going to.

12 MR. BROOKMAN: The logic that we employed

13 last time I think worked well. Let's talk about

14 exclusions. Let's talk about parameters as a way to

15 refine and narrow the potential scope. So let's do

16 that next. And, Chuck, I thought your memo was quite

17 clear, but I'm not sure everybody has seen it or that

18 they have a copy of it in front of them. Maybe we

19 should go through it.

20 MR. POWERS: Yes. I can read through it or

21 whatever you think or do you want to get right

22 --
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1 MS. WILLIAMS: We could load it on -- do you

2 want me to load it on the computer?

3 MR. BROOKMAN: I think that would be great

4 if you have it.

5 MR. POWERS: I tried to respond to I think

6 Lucas. I think everybody should have a copy of it.

7 MR. BROOKMAN: And let me note for the

8 record that Doug Potts has joined us. Welcome.

9 MR. POTTS: Good morning.

10 MR. BROOKMAN: I know the roads were bad.

11 Glad you made it.

12 MR. POTTS: Everything was delayed.

13 MR. BROOKMAN: Why don't you start while

14 they're figuring out how to load this?

15 MR. POWERS: Okay. At the last meeting, as

16 I understood, Al and the team stepped up and asked me

17 to respond to the four categories, which were the fire

18 pumps -- I call them the M&Ns that we've been involved

19 with for years -- the fire pumps, the Navy, the

20 nuclear, and the marine. So what I tried to do was to

21 -- instead of just rushing into it, which we seemed to

22 be doing at the last meeting, I wanted just to get a
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1 little bit better understanding from various people.

2 I reached out to some people that I used to work with

3 in the Navy, spec writers, actually some naval people;

4 right, in that category and others. So I just wanted

5 to get.

6 You had it up there a minute ago, which is

7 on page 4 of the handout, there was the comment on

8 fire pumps. And it says, "Exclude if it's certified

9 NFPA by UL or FM." So all I wanted to clarify was the

10 word "certified." I'd rather just change it to say,

11 "Compliance with NFPA 20 and UL/FM-certified." So

12 that's the minor change, as I said at the end of my

13 paragraph, but I'll read it, "NFPA 20 is a spec. It's

14 not a certifying authority. Similar to API, similar

15 to many others, it's a specification, not necessarily

16 authority." Now, people when they write specs will

17 then require additional things, testing and other

18 stuff, but it's a guideline and a specification.

19 "The definition here is about compliance,

20 not certification. The NFPA 20 spec has very specific

21 technical requirements. FM," which is Factory Mutual,

22 "or UL," which is Underwriters Laboratory, "are
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1 certifying authorities of various technical factors

2 and also, to a certain degree, insurance reasons.

3 There are companies out there that can't get a permit

4 to run a facility, however big or large or small it

5 is, unless they get insurance. And the only way to

6 get insurance is make sure, fire protection," this all

7 the way down the line, and that's one of them; right?

8 So, for an example, offshore platforms.

9 Certain companies out there -- and I could name one as

10 being Exxon; right? They are self-insured. They don't

11 necessarily meet, but they will imply NFPA 20. Okay?

12 So basically I tried to keep it in simple,

13 saying "fire pumps equals." And I said, "A fire pump

14 is" -- it would be incorrect to say, which is on here,

15 "A fire pump is certified to National Fire Protection

16 Association, NFPA, 20 standard. The word 'certifies'

17 is incorrect in my opinion, and 'compliant' might be

18 better."

19 Also, there are groups out there that go

20 both ways, where they will say, "We need NFPA spec" or

21 they will say, "We need NFPA and UL- listed." So it

22 can go either.
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1 So all I was saying at the very end, the

2 recommendation at the bottom there, for the Working

3 Group was "Fire pumps equals compliance with NFPA 20

4 specification."

5 MR. BROOKMAN: Questions, comments on that?

6 Joanna?

7 MS. MAUER: Joanna Mauer. Chuck, these

8 pumps that you are referring to are these cases where

9 pumps meet the specification, they aren't certified

10 because the companies have their own insurance. Are

11 these pumps that would fall in the scope of coverage

12 in what we're talking about, horsepower range and

13 everything?

14 MR. POWERS: They can. The types of fire

15 pumps that are out there if you take an offshore

16 platform will go two ways. They have to get to the

17 direct source of water. They cannot rely on a

18 secondary system to draw water from because if that

19 secondary system is on fire, then they can't put it

20 out. So they put them down the case line. And the

21 tubes are either floating, semi-submersible, or stay

22 on the ground. And that would be a submersible. So
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1 the six-inch could be in that category.

2 The other is a vertical turbine, where they

3 stick it down in the fluid. And it's usually at a --

4 it depends on the mezzanine protection because, you

5 know, because, again, fire and platform. And then on

6 on-land -- and, by the way, those are mostly diesel7 driven, not motor-driven because they don't want to

8 rely on the backup powers. Then on-site, meaning on9 land, there are whole variations: horizontal,

10 vertical, but, again, the source water. The basic

11 product is different the way NFPA requires; right, you

12 know, the conditions of service, certain categories,

13 and the technical aspects. But it can be some of Lot

14 11. And I hope, you know, some of the people here

15 would agree on submersible, the six-inch, but then

16 other products also.

17 MR. HUBER: The proper way to designate

18 this, you know, he's right. It's not certified.

19 It is compliant to NFPA 20. And UL-listed

20 is the correct way to say that and FM-approved. So

21 you should say: "compliant with NF 20 and UL-listed

22 and/or, and/or, FM-approved." That's the proper way
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1 to designate this.

2 MR. BROOKMAN: Lucas, go ahead.

3 MR. ADIN: Question on that point. Would it

4 have to be UL-listed or FM-approved? I mean, could

5 some other organization certify?

6 MR. HUBER: There are different. We hold

7 certifications in Poland.

8 MR. ADIN: Yes.

9 MR. HUBER: We hold some in France. But

10 we're talking about the U.S.

11 MR. ADIN: Yes.

12 MR. HUBER: So in the U.S., the only two

13 that I know of --

14 MR. ADIN: Yes.

15 MR. HUBER: -- and am aware of are UL --

16 MR. ADIN: Yes.

17 MR. HUBER: -- and FM.

18 MR. ADIN: Understood. I think --

19 MR. POWERS: Lloyd's of London, other

20 certifying groups, but most of those were offshore.

21 When I say "offshore," across the water or --

22 MR. ADIN: Yes.
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1 MR. BROOKMAN: That was Chuck. Now back to

2 Lucas?

3 MR. ADIN: We would want to be careful about

4 specifically identifying certifying bodies in the

5 definition because if you read the definition that

6 way, it means only those certifying bodies can make a

7 pump a "fire pump." You know what I mean? So if we

8 say it's only UL, if you just leave that part out --

9 MR. HUBER: Certified bodies can't make it,

10 but the manufacturers who have the certification can.

11 MR. ADIN: Right, but only UL or FM could

12 actually certify it as compliant with --

13 MR. HUBER: They do today.

14 MR. ADIN: They do today; right. But if

15 someone else came along and had the capability, they

16 couldn't use them or -- you know what I mean?

17 MR. HUBER: Well, you could add the

18 verbiage, --

19 MR. POWERS: Right.

20 MR. HUBER: -- "or any additional" --

21 MR. POWERS: "Or equal."

22 MR. HUBER: "Or equal."
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1 MR. ADIN: DOE actually does have a

2 definition of fire pump electric motor since fire pump

3 motors are covered right now in the standards. And,

4 for the benefit of everyone here, that definition

5 reads, "Fire pump electric motor means an electric

6 motor, including any IEC equivalent, that meets the

7 requirements of section 9.5 of NFPA 20."

8 MR. HUBER: Well, then --

9 MR. ADIN: And that's all that says.

10 MR. HUBER: Yes, but NFPA 20 specifically

11 says it has to be UL-listed. There's the rub.

12 MR. ADIN: So it's actually in --

13 MR. HUBER: It's in there already. So you

14 reference NFPA 20 and, therefore, you get a UL-listed

15 motor for fire pump service.

16 MR. POWERS: Yes. And so everybody is clear

17 -- this is Chuck again -- all I was trying to do is I

18 was worried about the first words up there --

19 MR. BROOKMAN: Yes.

20 MR. POWERS: -- that said, "certified by

21 NFPA 20."

22 MR. BROOKMAN: Yes.
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1 MR. POWERS: I'm okay with everybody saying

2 just "It's compliant." They don't certify. That's no

3 problem. So I was just trying to clarify the actual -

4 -

5 MR. BROOKMAN: So I didn't think we answered

6 Joanna's question fully. The thrust of her question -

7 - I don't want to put words in your mouth, Joanna --

8 was --

9 MS. MAUER: Actually --

10 MR. BROOKMAN: Go ahead, Joanna.

11 MS. MAUER: So getting the UL listing or the

12 FM approval is equivalent to what we have been saying

13 as getting the pumps certified.

14 MR. HUBER: That is correct; right.

15 MS. MAUER: There's a cost involved with

16 --

17 MR. POWERS: Right.

18 MS. MAUER: -- being UL-listed.

19 MR. POWERS: To help answer your question --

20 Chuck again -- if any one of us took a pump off the

21 shelf and said, "We want to apply it to FM, UL, or

22 NFPA 20," you can't do that because you basically have
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1 to take these products. You have to give it to them.

2 They have to do destructive testing. They have to do

3 other stuff. They check materials. If there are any

4 electrical devices on there, how is that box

5 protected? Is it some type of square cap and then

6 different things? There's a whole list of things that

7 you have to go through. So you just don't do it

8 unless you can comply.

9 MR. ECKMAN: Right.

10 MS. MAUER: This is Joanna. Thank you,

11 Chuck. So you're okay with the requirement that it be

12 UL-listed for --

13 MR. POWERS: Yes. I didn't have an issue

14 there. It was the word "certified."

15 MR. BROOKMAN: "Certified."

16 MR. HUBER: It's compliant with.

17 MR. POWERS: Compliant with.

18 MS. MAUER: Okay.

19 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay.

20 MR. HUBER: What they saying is -- so that I

21 can explain it.

22 MR. BROOKMAN: Yes. Al?
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1 MR. HUBER: What they're saying, what

2 they're saying, is by listing it or approving it in

3 the case of FM is that, actually, the product actually

4 meets NFPA 20. That's how the user knows that he's

5 getting an actual fire pump that has been tested for

6 that service.

7 MR. ADIN: So a manufacture can't just claim

8 it's --

9 MR. HUBER: No, you can't claim it. You

10 have to have it on your label.

11 MR. ADIN: Right.

12 MR. HUBER: The fire marshals around this

13 country go out and look at those labels to make sure

14 that --

15 MR. POWERS: Right, yes.

16 MR. HUBER: And the insurance companies do

17 the same, to make sure that the companies are using

18 only UL-listed or FM-approved --

19 MR. ADIN: Yes.

20 MR. HUBER: -- equipment, period.

21 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay.

22 MR. POWERS: And then the only thing I want
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1 to clarify -- Chuck again -- is that, Lucas, in your

2 definition is it can be diesel-driven. It can be

3 motor-driven. It can be --

4 MR. HUBER: It can be anything.

5 MR. POWERS: There's a whole litany, but

6 that's all covered. And it says if you're going to be

7 diesel-driven, X.

8 MR. ADIN: Yes.

9 MR. POWERS: And there's a whole set of

10 issues with diesels --

11 MR. ADIN: Right.

12 MR. POWERS: -- aspirators to startup

13 systems to some --

14 MR. HUBER: Gear boxes and so forth.

15 MR. ADIN: Right. Understood, yes. I just

16 read that definition so that when you hear the

17 verbiage and how they, you know, wrote the criteria --

18 MR. POWERS: So now --

19 MR. BROOKMAN: That was Lucas. Now back to

20 Chuck?

21 MR. POWERS: Yes. Sorry. One last

22 clarification. I talked to my friends overseas, both
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1 in Asia, which is very heavy. I went to Caterpillar,

2 who specializes in diesels just for fire pumps, and a

3 whole bunch of people. They didn't get into the

4 FM/UL. They were totally satisfied with leaving it,

5 you know, as fire pumps just because of, back to your

6 point, the certified bodies. And it just expands on

7 that. But, you know, I think if we leave it as

8 compliant, then we have written down -- I'm okay with

9 it.

10 MR. BROOKMAN: Louis?

11 MR. STARR: Louis Starr, NEEA. Does the

12 compliant data mean compliant? Do you get a label on

13 your pump saying it's compliant?

14 MR. HUBER: I'm sorry?

15 MR. STARR: Do you get a label on your pump

16 saying it's compliant?

17 MR. HUBER: No.

18 MR. STARR: You don't?

19 MR. BROOKMAN: Al Huber? No. Yes?

20 MR. HUBER: This is Al Huber. No. You have

21 a label. And, as a matter of fact, you have to send

22 in your nameplate to UL and FM. And they have to
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1 approve it, its size, what's on it, the fact that

2 their label is on it --

3 MR. POWERS: What year it is issued.

4 MR. HUBER: They come in periodically and

5 check it. They come in periodically and witness

6 tests. I mean, it is very stringent.

7 So I guess what -- I am trying to give

8 Joanna some comfort here. If we say it is UL/FM and

9 that is what you put here, then that is what it is

10 going to be. And it is not going to be off in some

11 other service.

12 MR. BROOKMAN: Lucas?

13 MR. ADIN: But, just as a point of

14 clarification, my understanding of the way that UL

15 listing works is they have categories of products or

16 equipment. And so if they list it, if they would have

17 a category for fire pumps maybe, you would be putting

18 the UL listing on the label. And that would be what

19 UL has. Is that right?

20 MR. HUBER: Yes. UL on their website --

21 MR. ADIN: Yes.

22 MR. HUBER: -- publishes everybody's
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1 listing.

2 MR. ADIN: Right. Right.

3 MR. HUBER: So you can go to that website

4 for that manufacturer and look and see if that

5 particular pump, model, and flow conditions have been

6 approved by FM or listed by UL.

7 MR. POWERS: And then -- Chuck again -- also

8 to have my experience after all of these years,

9 probably very few Lot 11, you know, would apply to

10 fire pumps, very few of any of those products. The

11 reason is offshore platforms, there are requirements.

12 They need in excess of 2,000 gallons. Okay? That's

13 what they have. Those are 10-inch, 12-inch, 30-inch

14 pumps. A building like this if we went downstairs and

15 found that they would be fairly large, they would be

16 much larger than two is my speculation. They might

17 find some small ones and keep them out of there, but,

18 you know, chances are they need a lot of work. So

19 it's not anything small. You know, I don't know. The

20 guys that do the circulators --

21 MR. HUBER: It isn't going to be a --

22 MR. POWERS: It ain't going to be a
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1 circulator. That's my guess.

2 MR. HUBER: No.

3 MR. POWERS: And the second parameter is

4 pressure. You know, they have to maintain a certain

5 pressure they give them because of all the nozzles and

6 so forth.

7 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Good. So I want to do

8 kind of a preliminary confirmation. We're good with

9 these edits, as reflected by Alison's edits up here on

10 the board. We're moving on. And this one is now

11 settled, it seems. Okay. Now we're moving on. Go to

12 Navy pumps.

13 MR. POWERS: Next is --

14 MR. BROOKMAN: Chuck?

15 MR. POWERS: -- on Navy pumps. Thanks. I

16 should speak in Gaelic. Then you'd all know what I

17 was talking about.

18 Communication with specialists within the

19 industry and engineering firms involved in the Navy.

20 My own experience -- I didn't expand on that -- the

21 Navy is mostly concerned about making sure that the

22 units are not overloading, they have some very
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1 stringent requirements, the motors and/or the drivers.

2 Our consumption is not an issue.

3 And, for what it's worth -- maybe Lucas can

4 help me -- I asked these guys specifically, is

5 efficiency an issue? And it's about not overloading.

6 It's not about the efficiency, from what he told me.

7 It's not even in the specifications. Okay? And I

8 opened up sort of my old ones. I mean, I have the

9 most recent ones. I opened up those.

10 Specifically, if it's a nuclear-powered

11 vessel, there's obviously ample power available. And

12 they're more concerned with design factors and

13 reliability that I can't really get into. So Navy

14 pumps should be defined as a MIL specification

15 requirement. There are actually several MIL specs

16 involved based on the type of product and service

17 intended. The following MIL specs apply to pumps in

18 question, are very stringent requirements. And I have

19 listed them. There are five of them here.

20 And so my recommendation to the Working

21 Group is Navy pumps equals MIL specification22 compliant.
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1 And if anybody wants to know, some of these

2 specs are there, four hundred pages. And, I mean, it

3 gets down to the bolting, number of threads per bolt,

4 to the materials, to noise, very, very stringent;

5 seriously, seriously doubt, in fact, without a

6 question, there is a pump we make we can take off the

7 shelf that would meet the spec.

8 MR. BROOKMAN: Right. Gotcha. Thank you,

9 Chuck.

10 Questions or comments on this

11 recommendation, "Navy pumps equals MIL specification12 compliant"? Louis?

13 MR. STARR: Louis Starr, NEEA. The military

14 specs change, though; right?

15 MR. POWERS: They get updated. It depends

16 on their venue. If they change a vessel, they may

17 make some requirements on pressures to -- I mean,

18 Lucas knows. There's a whole litany of things that

19 they change.

20 Their biggest issue is staying on top of

21 vibration and noise. They get very, very -- I don't

22 want to use the wrong word here -- very, very, you
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1 know, pragmatic on noise and vibration. That's the big

2 deal.

3 MR. BROOKMAN: Right. Right. Okay.

4 MR. POWERS: Not so much as a carrier

5 because they make so much noise and they're so big you

6 can't miss them, but some of the other --

7 MR. BROOKMAN: Yes. So thank you, Chuck.

8 Joanna?

9 MS. MAUER: Joanna Mauer. I think just the

10 thing that we want to make sure of we are following is

11 just that people won't start in the future using one

12 of these for a general application. And so if you can

13 just help us with each of these just understand why

14 this is the case?

15 MR. POWERS: This is Chuck. I'll give a

16 couple. And then I'll allow my cohorts here to share.

17 I would say that a MIL spec product, number one, is

18 probably 100 times more expensive. Okay? Number one.

19 That would be one of them.

20 Number two, knowing the Navy and knowing

21 some of the programs they have and of development,

22 they have a certified group of companies that they
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1 work with. And it is very stringent. You know, I

2 don't know what Lucas --

3 MS. MAUER: It's 100 times more expensive

4 than --

5 MR. POWERS: Oh, I guarantee it. I'm using

6 that term loosely, but I'll --

7 MR. BROOKMAN: Al Hubert?

8 MR. HUBER: It's usually an aluminum bronze

9 casing if it's a split case, which is four or five,

10 six times the cost of a cast iron case that you would

11 see in the --

12 MR. POWERS: Super duplex?

13 MR. HUBER: Or super duplex stainless.

14 MR. POTTS: Titanium.

15 MR. HUBER: Yes. It's just --

16 MR. POWERS: I'm not allowed to talk -- I've

17 got to be careful what I say. Go ahead.

18 MR. HUBER: Well, anyway, its exotic metals.

19 How about let's just say that: exotic metals? And

20 nobody in their right mind is going to use that for a

21 water pump.

22 MR. BROOKMAN: So I'm eager for us to keep
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1 making progress. So if everybody is okay with what is

2 being described here as being MIL spec-compliant;

3 right?

4 MR. STARR: Louis Starr, NEEA. Can you

5 specify what those military specs are? There are

6 probably lots of military specs.

7 MR. BROOKMAN: Right.

8 MR. STARR: That doesn't have anything to do

9 --

10 MR. POWERS: You could list these. You

11 could list these.

12 MR. STARR: Probably be the best thing to

13 do.

14 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay.

15 MR. STARR: They change the --

16 MR. POWERS: The spec number won't change,

17 but the rev might.

18 MR. BROOKMAN: So I think maybe it's useful

19 to list them. Okay.

20 MR. ADIN: Doug?

21 MR. BROOKMAN: Lucas?

22 MR. ADIN: I mean, it's a good question. And
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1 I think for all of these, this one included,

2 realistically DOE will have to look at the best way to

3 wordsmith the definitions and come up with something

4 that, you know, from a legal standpoint will --

5 MR. POWERS: Sure.

6 MR. ADIN: -- make sense as far as --

7 MR. POWERS: Yes. This is Chuck again. My

8 purpose, it's up to the body to decide.

9 MR. ADIN: Right.

10 MR. POWERS: I'm just trying to give you my

11 best --

12 MR. ADIN: Right.

13 MR. POWERS: -- views to people who could

14 share them with me. You know, how you guys decide,

15 that's a Working Group decision. I'm not trying to --

16 MR. BROOKMAN: That's good.

17 MR. ADIN: Right.

18 MR. BROOKMAN: You know, this is helpful.

19 And subject, then, based on what Lucas said about the

20 Department, scanning through this, putting its stamp

21 of approval on the different definitions, then I'm

22 about to move on. We're okay with this one as far as
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1 we know it right now; right? Okay.

2 Now, nuclear pumps.

3 MR. POWERS: Nuclear. This was a lot easier

4 to me. And I've been involved in these. We still are

5 very heavily. And there are other people at this

6 table who might be.

7 Nuclear products are defined as non-code or

8 code/safety-related. Non-code -- how can I say it? --

9 would be, let's say, not in the primary turbine floor

10 cycle of dealing with the fluids or radioactive

11 activity. You might have a pump sitting outside the

12 nuclear plant that's just drawing water from a well.

13 It's giving water to the plant, but it's not inside

14 what's called the safety level. Okay?

15 Specification as applied here, again, very

16 stringent, is ASME section III. And we also see both

17 and sometimes individually the 10 CFR 50, which stands

18 for Code of Federal Regulations. That's the government

19 again requiring code. Okay? And the non-safety

20 products required still have significant design

21 requirements, rigorous NDE, non-destructive

22 examination, testing. You know, even though it's
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1 going within that plant, you know, Charlie will tell

2 you, the others, you know, it still is very rigorous.

3 Now, pricewise, you know, again, -- I don't

4 know -- 10 times, 100 times, it varies. Right? And

5 the funny thing is some of the material may be pretty

6 basic, but it's all the testing that goes into it and

7 qualifications that go into it that makes the product

8 very expensive; right, in qualifying and stuff. So

9 ASME has to restrict the material code. They will go

10 all the way down to the S and the G's and, you know,

11 what type of boundaries and activity.

12 So, with that being said, my recommendation

13 to the group, again, is nuclear pumps equal code or

14 non-code/safety-related ASME section III or 10 CFR 50.

15 You know, I try to keep it as simple as possible

16 without getting into detail.

17 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. So comments or

18 questions on nuclear pumps with this description,

19 descriptor? Louis?

20 MR. STARR: Louis Starr, NEEA. Wouldn't it

21 be more accurate to say "complies with ASME section

22 III or 10 CFR," kind of the same things that are used
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1 for the fire pumps.

2 MR. POWERS: Yes, you can. My only thing is

3 I think there's a good definition out there. When I

4 see specs and some of my cohorts here, they'll say

5 non-code or safety-related or code. You know,

6 standards pumps are here. Non- code are here.

7 Safety-related are here. Yes, you could because what

8 they will say is non-code to ASME section III; right,

9 or coded ASME section III and then you go into and

10 there are different activities in there.

11 MR. STARR: ASME III, though, is for non12 coded pumps.

13 MR. POWERS: It's code or non-code, yes. So

14 I'm open to, you know --

15 MR. BROOKMAN: So, Louis, are you suggesting

16 some new language?

17 MR. STARR: Well, just to help out, I think

18 what she has there is fine.

19 MR. POWERS: That would be the cleanest.

20 MS. WILLIAMS: Just the top part?

21 MR. POWERS: Could you make that a little

22 larger?
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1 MS. WILLIAMS: Yes. Okay?

2 MR. POWERS: Yes.

3 MR. BROOKMAN: Maybe it's "Complies with

4 ASME section III or 10 CFR 50." And then,

5 additionally, it says, "code or non-code/safety6 related."

7 MR. POWERS: No. You would say "non- code

8 or code/safety-related."

9 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay.

10 MR. POWERS: "Non-code or code/." There you

11 go.

12 MS. WILLIAMS: Is this like in addition to

13 the top part or --

14 MR. POWERS: It's a combination.

15 MR. ADIN: Is that ASME referring to a

16 particular ASME standard in section III?

17 MR. CASE: Yes, there's got to be.

18 MR. POWERS: Yes.

19 MR. CASE: We would have to identify which

20 one.

21 MR. ADIN: Yes.

22 MR. POWERS: It's the whole -- yes, it is,
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1 but it's the whole section. I could go get that.

2 MR. ADIN: We would just have to specify

3 which one.

4 MR. POWERS: It's pressure vessel- coated,

5 yes.

6 MR. HUBER: Yes.

7 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. So that was Lucas

8 there and back to Chuck. Okay. So DOE says we need

9 to define what that ASME specification --

10 MR. POWERS: Yes. Alison, also put a space

11 after "section III" before the "or." Whoa.

12 MS. WILLIAMS: Sorry.

13 MR. POWERS: No problem.

14 MS. WALTNER: Chuck, this is Meg. Can you

15 hear me?

16 MR. BROOKMAN: Yes.

17 MR. HUBER: Yes.

18 MS. WALTNER: This is Meg. Could you

19 explain further exactly what you mean by "non-code or

20 code/safety-related"? I'm confused exactly what that

21 language means.

22 MR. POWERS: Okay.
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1 MR. BROOKMAN: Chuck?

2 MR. POWERS: Sorry. At a nuclear plant or a

3 nuclear facility, you have what you call the coded

4 zone, where you have radioactive fluid that is being

5 used. And that is a protected -- that is what they

6 call code/safety-related. Outside of that area, you

7 could have products that are not dealing directly with

8 the radioactive fluid, but it is within the nuclear

9 site. And what that means is the materials, the

10 conditions of service and all may not be the same, but

11 you still have seismic specification requirements.

12 You still have pressure issues. You still have

13 material issues. You still have NDE, et cetera. It's

14 not directly related to the product dealing with the

15 radioactive fluid.

16 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay.

17 MS. WALTNER: Okay. Thank you.

18 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Thank you, Meg. Glad

19 you could join us.

20 Louis?

21 MR. STARR: Louis Starr with NEEA. It

22 sounds like DOE or whoever may need to sort of define
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1 what those definitions of that non-code or code/safety

2 are so that it has context --

3 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay.

4 MR. STARR: -- because I'm sure that

5 probably people don't -work in (inaudible) means

6 something else to them.

7 MR. BROOKMAN: So, then, pending that DOE

8 review, are we okay with what is written up here on

9 the screen? I am about to move on.

10 Chuck?

11 MR. POWERS: The only question I have --

12 and, again, I'm not trying to sway either way -- is

13 that if we're going to move tomorrow, let's try to get

14 some of this wrapped up so that we're not still

15 dealing with this six months from now.

16 MR. BROOKMAN: Yes. That's what I'm trying

17 to do; right.

18 MR. POWERS: I mean, whatever you decide,

19 let's try to get what your comments are back on the

20 table so we can get this over with; right?

21 MR. ADIN: Well, I think the hope -- I mean,

22 I can speak for myself. I don't know about everybody
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1 else here. The hope is that we could vote by the end

2 of the meeting tomorrow on finalizing all of this

3 stuff -- it's exclusions -- so that we are clear on

4 what the scope will be for the remainder of --

5 MR. POWERS: Sure, sure.

6 MR. BROOKMAN: Chuck, what you guys are

7 going to do, let's get that --

8 MR. ADIN: Well, so what I'm talking about

9 is how we would word this. Like we can vote on

10 exclusion in principle. And we may still have to come

11 up with a definition that will go in the regulation,

12 but, I mean, we can vote on the types of pumps

13 categorically that we're going to leave out and deal

14 with the actual wording of the reg later, so unless

15 people are not comfortable voting unless they know

16 exactly what it will say, but, I mean, there might be

17 things that come up as we do regulatory review that I

18 can't perceive at the moment. Sorry.

19 MR. BROOKMAN: Charlie?

20 MR. CAPPELLINO: Charlie Cappellino, ITT. I

21 would just suggest that after the word "ASME," we put

22 in "boiler pressure vessel code" because that really
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1 is the specification we're talking about.

2 MR. ADIN: I've been looking at the Code of

3 Federal Regulations for NRC. And that's exactly the

4 language they use.

5 MR. POWERS: I'm sorry. I didn't go that

6 far. I was just trying to get --

7 MR. BROOKMAN: Yes.

8 MR. ADIN: Yes, I know. Just to confirm for

9 everyone. That's all. The ASME --

10 MR. POWERS: I'm so far in the woods that if

11 I don't step back and look at it like other people

12 look at it --

13 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. So, Charlie, thank

14 you. And then following on from there was Chuck

15 again.

16 Okay. So I think, based on what Lucas said,

17 we're good with this definition. And in some

18 regulatory review or whatever, we can still approve it

19 as written here when we get to that point. Now we're

20 moving on to marine pumps.

21 MR. POWERS: Okay. I'm going to be honest

22 and say that I struggled with this one. When I talked
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1 to a lot of different people, most marine pumps just

2 use HI standards. The difference is everyone you

3 speak to will have some type of a spec that they have

4 written themselves that make it, you know, stringent

5 for various reasons.

6 For example, if it's barge, if it's a vessel

7 that's small enough, the type of lubrication can be

8 effective. If the pump -- I'm using simple terms --

9 is tilting, if it's an all- bath lubrication, is it

10 still going to get to lubrication in the position it's

11 sitting in or grease-packed; right? There are also

12 other requirements for the foundations to be used.

13 The type of base plates -- in other words, if you have

14 a fixed member sitting on concrete in a building like

15 this, drainage, lube systems, piping, it's all, you

16 know, gravity-fed and will naturally go to least

17 resistance, et cetera. When you have a marine unit,

18 it is going to have different variables that will

19 impact it.

20 The problem was I couldn't really get down

21 to a specific compliant with X like somebody wrote a

22 marine spec that said this or that. Now, I will say
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1 some marine specs will say, "compliant with Navy MIL

2 spec" whatever. They will go that far. Some will

3 say, "NDE requirements," non- destructive examination.

4 You know, they add a lot of different things in.

5 So I really can't say to the group that

6 there is a definitive marine pump spec that we could

7 refer to. It's all over the place. So, you know, I'm

8 open up to Greg, who has dealt with it a lot; and

9 Charlie; and any of the others.

10 I tried to get into the marine side of it.

11 And, you know, I'm being honest, Lucas. I couldn't

12 get back to you and say, "Here is a definitive thing"

13 because it's all over. I see some that are very

14 stringent, and I see some that are much less.

15 MR. ADIN: Okay.

16 MR. POWERS: But still it's a marine. So

17 there are paintings, whatever.

18 MR. BROOKMAN: Let me note that Greg Towsley

19 has joined us. Welcome.

20 MR. TOWSLEY: Thank you.

21 MR. BROOKMAN: Glad you have made it. A lot

22 of folks kind of struggled with getting here today.
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1 Greg, can you follow on? Is there any

2 additional thing you can say about marine pumps?

3 MR. CASE: A follow-on to Chuck's comment,

4 in my merchant marine experience and also barges and

5 ferries and things like that, I haven't seen any great

6 definition or something that would separate them from

7 pumps that I would see in our Lot 11 group. Materials

8 may be slightly different, but a lot of these places

9 are going to your local supply houses to get

10 equipment. They're not going to -- it's not any

11 special spec where they have to get this stuff made.

12 So I don't believe that there's anything

13 that we can say, "Hey, this is" -- that we can

14 classify that as a marine pump versus a non-marine

15 pump.

16 MR. BROOKMAN: Go ahead, Al. Al Huber?

17 MR. HUBER: Well, I will just suggest that

18 we remove the marine from the list of exclusions since

19 we can't define it. If we could define it, then we

20 would.

21 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay.

22 MR. HUBER: But I think we'll probably have
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1 to drop it.

2 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Al says let's drop the

3 list of items that potentially might be excluded since

4 we haven't voted on them yet. Additional comments? I

5 saw some of the energy efficiency advocacy folks

6 nodding in approval of that. Okay.

7 So, then, those are the four items. Do we

8 need any additional discussion? Do you want to act on

9 this? We should wait until everybody shows up. We

10 should wait until we have a full complement before we

11 take any action. Okay. Okay. Good. Well, then,

12 Chuck, thanks for taking the initiative on that and

13 writing up the memo. That was a lot of good work went

14 into that.

15 MS. WILLIAMS: HI was going to do some more

16 work on some of these definitions.

17 MR. BROOKMAN: On definitions, as I recall.

18 MS. WILLIAMS: Hop in or no? No. Okay.

19 MR. CASE: I thought we had defined sanitary

20 pumps. Sorry. This is Greg Case with HI. I thought

21 we had defined sanitary pumps. I did get a couple of

22 numbers or our designators for other types of pumps,
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1 but --

2 MS. WILLIAMS: Okay. But --

3 MR. BROOKMAN: So this is Alison Williams

4 speaking.

5 MS. WILLIAMS: Sorry. So right now you

6 don't have anything to add to this?

7 MR. CASE: No, no.

8 MS. WILLIAMS: Okay. Do you want us to work

9 on those or do you plan to --

10 MR. CASE: I can take a note. And maybe I

11 can have those done by tomorrow.

12 MR. BROOKMAN: Greg, did I hear you

13 correctly? Did you say that you provided some

14 information on sanitary pumps?

15 MR. CASE: No. I thought we had covered

16 those in the food-grade specification. Maybe I can

17 try and --

18 MS. WILLIAMS: Right. I just wrote down

19 that HI will look into the differences on those.

20 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. I lost track. Sanitary

21 pumps, that's the food-grade stuff?

22 MS. WILLIAMS: Yes.
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1 MR. BROOKMAN: I gotcha. Okay. I remember

2 that discussion now.

3 MS. WILLIAMS: Thank you.

4 MR. BROOKMAN: And then still to be refined:

5 pumps outside certain parameters of power flow had

6 temperature speed and ball diameter. Do we have a

7 short list of what those are? Alison?

8 MS. WILLIAMS: Yes. I mean, so that's the

9 parameters, which we had talked about last time. But

10 it was also my understanding that HI was reviewing

11 these. So I don't know if anything has been done on

12 this since the last meeting or not. No? Okay.

13 MR. HUBER: The only one -- Al Huber,

14 Patterson.

15 MR. BROOKMAN: Thank you.

16 MR. HUBER: The only thing that I saw there

17 we haven't already okayed or voted on, there are only

18 two. One of them is pumps designated to clean water.

19 And we never got the definition of clean water, then.

20 MS. WILLIAMS: So yes. I want to cover

21 clean water separately.

22 MR. HUBER: Okay.
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1 MS. WILLIAMS: So yes. Let's hold onto that

2 one.

3 MR. HUBER: So you've got two and four. You

4 changed. You left it at two and four; right?

5 MS. WILLIAMS: Yes.

6 MR. HUBER: No, we don't have a problem with

7 that, I don't think.

8 MS. WILLIAMS: Okay.

9 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Alison?

10 MR. HANDZEL: What were you expecting,

11 Alison?

12 MS. WILLIAMS: I don't know what I was

13 expecting. I just know that you guys had said that

14 you were going to go back and review all of these

15 because there was some discussion about like in the --

16 this is just a write-up of the EU, that there were

17 different parameters for the different pump types.

18 And some people were confused. And my recollection is

19 just that HI said, "We'll go back and take a look at

20 this and see what we think."

21 MR. BROOKMAN: I recall Joanna requesting

22 that maybe there were some more specific definitions
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1 needed for the items that had already been excluded.

2 MS. WILLIAMS: I mean, that's separate, yes.

3 MR. HUBER: We're satisfied with the

4 description that you had, Alison, these descriptions

5 of the one to two hundred horsepower, shaft power at

6 BEP, 25 gpm, 459 head, and then the temperature range.

7 We're satisfied with those. So we have nothing to add.

8 MS. WILLIAMS: Three people.

9 MR. LIN: Paul Lin with Regal. Just a

10 question. On shaft power at BEP, maybe as for when

11 it's time, do we want to keep that verbiage there? I

12 don't think the EU has that verbiage. They just have

13 shaft power.

14 MR. HUBER: They have shaft power one to two

15 hundred.

16 MS. WILLIAMS: Maximum shaft power.

17 MR. HUBER: They have it at kW.

18 MR. LIN: So I think that BEP may cause a

19 little bit of confusion relative to the water pump as

20 well as maybe coming from a manufacturer standpoint in

21 supporting the pump manufacturers. So when we get

22 asked, "one to two hundred," what does that mean?
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1 MS. WILLIAMS: This is all of a sudden. So,

2 I mean, we talked about this last week. And our just

3 sort of comment is that BEP is an identifiable point

4 on every pump; whereas, maximum shaft power is sort of

5 dependent on where you draw your curve. And so from a

6 regulatory standpoint, it may be easier to go with

7 BEP, but if that is going to be a problem, then yes,

8 we should discuss.

9 MR. BROOKMAN: Having just looked very

10 carefully at the transcript of the last meeting,

11 that's where we left it last time with BEP. It was a

12 considerable discussion.

13 Yes, Charlie?

14 MR. CAPPELLINO: Charlie Cappellino. I'm

15 still not clear on where it says, "applies to all

16 stages." That's to be a little bit ambiguous.

17 MS. WILLIAMS: Yes. So someone had asked

18 last time if the power limit applied to I think a

19 single-stage, a multistage pump or to whatever stage,

20 whatever number of stages you were dealing with in a

21 model.

22 MR. HUBER: Al Huber, Patterson. Our
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1 interpretation is that it is the pump, regardless of

2 how many stages it has.

3 MS. WILLIAMS: Okay.

4 MR. HUBER: The other way that you could put

5 one to two hundred horsepower, rather than the BEP,

6 you could just say they would have to be non7 overloading of 200 horsepower.

8 MR. HANDZEL: But that would change the way

9 you mean it, then.

10 MR. HUBER: Yes. That would change the way

11 --

12 MR. HANDZEL: I wouldn't do it at this

13 point.

14 MR. HUBER: Let's just leave it at BEP.

15 MS. WILLIAMS: Okay. So, instead of

16 "applies to all stages," it should just be more like

17 "applies to the pump, regardless of stages"?

18 MR. HUBER: Yes.

19 MR. CASE: Can I ask a question?

20 MR. HANDZEL: That's not good.

21 MR. HUBER: That's not?

22 MR. CASE: No. We should specify, you know,
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1 if it's a single-stage pump, a nine-stage pump or a

2 three-stage pump, based on the other -- I mean,

3 because we have single, nine, and three stages.

4 MR. HANDZEL: That we're collecting data on.

5 MR. CASE: That we're collecting data on.

6 MR. HUBER: Data on, yes.

7 MR. CASE: And that were specified in the EU

8 standard. So if it's a multistage submersible, it's

9 nine stages. If it's a vertical turbine, it's three

10 stages. If it's a single- stage pump, it's that

11 single stage.

12 MR. HUBER: So it's that horsepower at BEP

13 for that number of stages.

14 MR. CASE: For that number of stages.

15 MR. HUBER: Okay.

16 MS. WILLIAMS: The number of stages required

17 for testing --

18 MR. CASE: Yes.

19 MS. WILLIAMS: -- to meet this.

20 MR. HUBER: To meet the --

21 MR. BROOKMAN: I'm going to continue trying

22 to get everybody to say their names.
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1 MR. CASE: Sorry.

2 MR. BROOKMAN: That was Greg with Al a

3 little bit contributing. And that was Alison

4 finishing up.

5 Now, how are you doing? Did you get all of

6 that you were describing?

7 MS. WILLIAMS: Yes.

8 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. One or two hundred

9 horsepower, shaft power at BEP, applies to the number

10 of stages required for testing for the standard.

11 Okay. Yes? Several heads are nodding in

12 agreement. Okay. So then going back to the previous

13 colorful chart, slide 3 in the handout, that final

14 item, "Pump Type," that's all of these items in the

15 exclusion or the parameters list? "Pumps outside

16 certain" --

17 MS. WILLIAMS: Yes.

18 MR. BROOKMAN: -- "parameters of power,

19 flow, head," that's --

20 MS. WILLIAMS: That's what we just looked

21 at.

22 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Okay. So, then, does
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1 it stay there or should it be --

2 MS. WILLIAMS: Well, I think it -- I mean,

3 it's a no; right? It's a matter of voting or making

4 sure it's final and voting on it.

5 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Okay. I just wondered

6 about the placement.

7 MS. WILLIAMS: Oh. Yes, those are

8 exclusions.

9 MR. BROOKMAN: Yes. Okay. Additional

10 comments here? Chuck?

11 MR. POWERS: If you can go back to the color

12 chart for a second?

13 MS. WILLIAMS: Yes.

14 MR. POWERS: So, Alison, for example, will

15 you go in where it says, "Fire pumps certified NFPA

16 20" and just correct that under the definition that we

17 had or whatever and any of the other ones? The Navy

18 you could put in there now.

19 And a suggestion -- Chuck again.

20 MR. HUBER: Separate them.

21 MR. POWERS: You might want to separate

22 Navy, nuclear. Yes, you might want to keep those
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1 separate lines.

2 MS. WILLIAMS: Yes.

3 MR. POWERS: Because you have a definition

4 now for each of those; right?

5 MS. WILLIAMS: Right. So, I mean, what I'm

6 hoping is we can vote on them here because I'm running

7 out of -- I think we're going to break out of this

8 slide at some point --

9 MR. POWERS: Yes.

10 MS. WILLIAMS: -- or we can just run it off

11 the --

12 MR. HANDZEL: Do you want us to put the noes

13 on a separate page?

14 MS. WILLIAMS: Yes.

15 MR. POWERS: I'll just suggest something

16 here. Maybe for this color chart you have "Scope,"

17 which is good." You have pump type, which is good.

18 You have ANSI/HI nomenclature. Should we just add a

19 column on a spec or not? That way you don't have to

20 write it within that. You can refer to a -- or no, I

21 guess not. You know what I mean? Should we have a

22 column for the definitions?
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1 MS. WILLIAMS: Sure.

2 MR. POWERS: We don't have to. I'm just

3 saying maybe that's something later you'd want to do.

4 MS. WILLIAMS: Yes. So, I mean, I think

5 what our goal was was to work through all of these and

6 then eventually make sure everything is either a "Yes"

7 or "No" on this chart. And then we can have one "Yes"

8 chart and one "No" chart. So, you know, I can do it

9 later or --

10 MR. BROOKMAN: I like this level of

11 description. It's quite clear. And we can add to it

12 later. Okay.

13 So did we do all of the parameters? I guess

14 we just went through all of them.

15 MS. WILLIAMS: Yes. So we haven't gone

16 through -- I want to have a separate discussion about

17 clean water, but I guess there is no more discussion

18 on any of the other parameters.

19 MR. BROOKMAN: Lucas?

20 MR. ADIN: So maybe just a quick point to

21 try and clarify our thinking on how we're going to

22 approach this. I mean, I am open to ideas, obviously,
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1 from the rest of the group. But we keep going back

2 and forth between things we are excluding and what

3 we're including, which makes this a little bit

4 confusing, for obvious reasons. But for different

5 types of products, we approach it different ways. And

6 it depends on how easily you can define, you can

7 distinguish what is excluded from what is included.

8 And since we have things we clearly can

9 agree that we should exclude, I think the way that

10 we're approaching this and DOE, anyway, feels

11 comfortable with this is excluding specific things.

12 And then so, starting from there, everything else, by

13 default, is included. And then we can define a more

14 specific scope within those included things. Then you

15 just assume anything within those parameters is

16 included.

17 And so we'll deal with exclusions. Then

18 we'll narrow the scope of what is included. And then

19 does that make sense?

20 MR. HUBER: No.

21 MR. BROOKMAN: Chuck?

22 MR. POWERS: Sorry. There are three things;
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1 right?

2 MR. ADIN: Right.

3 MR. POWERS: I agree with what you're

4 saying.

5 MR. ADIN: Yes.

6 MR. POWERS: One is the technical parameters

7 let's call it --

8 MR. ADIN: Right.

9 MR. POWERS: -- not just parameters; right,

10 the flow, the head, the pressure, --

11 MR. ADIN: Right.

12 MR. POWERS: -- I mean, the horsepower. The

13 next one is the product parameters.

14 MR. ADIN: Yes.

15 MR. POWERS: The application parameters is

16 probably a better way to say it, like fire pumps

17 versus this, versus that. And those parameters are

18 included in our exclusion list. And then the last one

19 is the Lot 11 if you want to call it parameters.

20 MR. ADIN: Right.

21 MR. POWERS: Right? There are three; right?

22 MR. ADIN: Yes.
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1 MR. POWERS: And they're independent in each

2 own way; right?

3 MR. ADIN: Well, they can be. Like certain

4 Lot 11 pumps could be the same, you know, type as a

5 fire pump. So we're excluding those. And then we're

6 going to say, "All right. Well, in this whole other

7 universe of pumps that we haven't specifically

8 excluded, we are covering these specific types." And

9 then if it's one of those types and it's not otherwise

10 excluded, then it's in.

11 MR. POWERS: Almost like a decision tree.

12 MR. ADIN: Yes.

13 MR. BROOKMAN: And the parameters -- go

14 ahead, Al. Go ahead.

15 MR. HUBER: We have exclusions. And,

16 really, I don't know how these parameters got down

17 into the exclusion list. It's really not an

18 exclusion. It is what you are actually going to

19 regulate.

20 MR. BROOKMAN: Yes. That's why I was --

21 MR. HUBER: So I think that's the confusion.

22 Right, Lucas? I mean, I think that is confusing. It
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1 really doesn't belong in this list of exclusions. It

2 is what we're going to regulate; right? We're going

3 to regulate pumps, one to two hundred horsepower

4 pumps.

5 MR. ADIN: Right.

6 MR. HUBER: So that's what I'm saying. It

7 really doesn't belong on this list. It should be

8 belonging in the scope --

9 MR. ADIN: Right.

10 MR. HUBER: -- at the beginning of the

11 scope. And then you get down to the products. Is

12 that what you're saying?

13 MR. ADIN: Kind of, yes. Without having a

14 diagram, it's a little hard to conceptualize, but, I

15 mean, you could almost make like a Venn diagram of

16 this stuff; right? You have a big box. And you have a

17 little box of stuff you're taking out. But within the

18 big box, you're still being more specific.

19 MR. HUBER: Right.

20 MR. ADIN: And we're going to write those

21 parameters into the scope.

22 MR. HUBER: Right.
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1 MR. ADIN: Yes.

2 MR. HUBER: So these parameters are really

3 in the scope, not in this --

4 MS. WILLIAMS: Yes. I think that's --

5 MR. ADIN: Yes.

6 MS. WILLIAMS: -- outside parameters. It's

7 just a wording.

8 MR. ADIN: Yes.

9 MR. HUBER: Right. So if it's outside these

10 parameters, then excluded.

11 MS. WILLIAMS: Then it's excluded, yes.

12 MR. HUBER: That's fine.

13 MR. ADIN: Yes.

14 MR. HUBER: We have no problem with that.

15 MR. BROOKMAN: So Mark?

16 MR. HANDZEL: Mark Handzel. I just want to

17 say, I mean, Lucas, do we need to define these because

18 they could turn into areas of potential rulemaking

19 further down the road? I mean, if we're spending a

20 lot of time on it, like you all said, --

21 MR. ADIN: Yes.

22 MR. HANDZEL: -- they're not going to be
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1 listed as covered under the rules because they're

2 excluded.

3 MR. ADIN: So the way that we would do this

4 is we would write a definition for what constitutes

5 the covered type of pump that we are looking at. And

6 the different configurations in Lot 11, conceivably we

7 would have different product classes for each pump

8 that requires a separate standard. But there would

9 still be a pump definition for the covered types of

10 pumps.

11 MR. HANDZEL: Right.

12 MR. ADIN: So it would say, you know, "Pump

13 is" whatever "except these types." And then we have -

14 - you know, we would have to have a separate

15 definition for specific types, types listed "except

16 for nuclear pumps," "except for marine pumps," "except

17 for fire pumps." And so that's --

18 MR. HUBER: I think we're in agreement.

19 MR. ADIN: Okay.

20 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Okay? That was Lucas

21 speaking last. And I think what you have described is

22 essentially up here in this decision tree; correct?
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1 MR. ADIN: Yes, it is. That essentially

2 lays out what we have just talked about.

3 MR. BROOKMAN: Yes. Okay.

4 MR. ADIN: It would have been better to have

5 that up there when I started that line of dialogue.

6 MR. POWERS: So, Lucas, is that -- this is

7 Chuck. I was trying to get to so the second box you

8 would define maybe like Lot 11? And the third box

9 there would be the technical parameters like you

10 defined; right?

11 MS. WILLIAMS: Yes.

12 MR. POWERS: I'm trying to refer to these

13 page numbers here; right? I want to keep them

14 straight.

15 MR. BROOKMAN: So now will you return to

16 slide number 5, the parameter slide? I think we have

17 discussed these rather fully. The edits, the

18 clarifications in red came from the last meeting we

19 had. And we're not going to vote on this now, but I

20 am considering this to be pretty much done and closed,

21 discussed.

22 Lucas?
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1 MR. ADIN: Yes. Just one quick point. And

2 this is Betsy mentioned something actually pretty

3 important about this. I just want to make sure this

4 is clear for the group, but we still have to come up

5 with a definition for the term "pump" broadly, which

6 we had talked about last time.

7 MR. BROOKMAN: Right.

8 MR. ADIN: So yes, the scope part of it is

9 more specific within that broader definition of pump.

10 So the term "pump" would still apply to all pumps.

11 MR. HUBER: Right.

12 MR. ADIN: We would just be setting

13 standards for the ones that we identify in the scope.

14 MR. BROOKMAN: That's a useful

15 clarification.

16 MR. ADIN: Right.

17 MR. BROOKMAN: And also, as Alison noted a

18 little bit ago, we also need to define clean water.

19 MR. ADIN: Well, --

20 MS. WILLIAMS: I mean, I think what Lucas

21 was just getting at and what we are trying to do with

22 this tree -- actually, I think I have a slide on this
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1 -- is that we think that, actually, we don't need to

2 define clean water.

3 MR. BROOKMAN: Oh, good. Good.

4 MS. WILLIAMS: So we're going to define. So

5 like here, just like Lucas said, if it meets one of

6 the excluded products, solids handling, whatever, it's

7 not covered, then you check to see if it's end section

8 close coupled, or one of the other pumps that the

9 group decides to cover. Then you check the

10 parameters. And that's it.

11

12 And so if you go through that three-step

13 process, we're not sure that we actually need to ever

14 define what clean water is because it's just going to

15 be determined by, you know, exclusions, covered pump

16 types, and parameters.

17 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay.

18 MS. KOHL: And when we say, "covered" --

19 this is Betsy Kohl again.

20 MS. WILLIAMS: Oh, sorry.

21 MS. KOHL: -- we mean subject to standard;

22 right? Covered is pump. That's the statutory,
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1 covered, pump. Yes.

2 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. So that I guess we'll

3 see how that plays out in practice; right?

4 MS. WILLIAMS: Do you guys have questions

5 about --

6 MR. HUBER: Yes. Al Huber, Patterson. Clean

7 water is what defines the engineering of the pump. So

8 we have engineered the pump differently for clean

9 water than we would for solids handling or slurries or

10 --

11 MR. HANDZEL: Petroleum products.

12 MR. HUBER: -- petroleum products or

13 anything else. So we would feel more comfortable if

14 we had the definition of clean water. I know that you

15 have a definition. We think it is a reasonable

16 definition. I can't see it being a problem in the

17 regulation. It might be, but I can't see it.

18 MR. ADIN: I think the only issue that we

19 have with doing it that way is if you define clean

20 water, then you have these exclusions. Is there

21 something else out there that, by default, is excluded

22 because you used the clean water definition that you
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1 didn't necessarily mean to exclude?

2 MR. HUBER: I don't think so. I mean, I

3 don't think you would. But if you did, there would

4 probably be a legitimate reason that you would.

5 MS. WILLIAMS: So this goes back to the

6 --

7 MR. BROOKMAN: Pardon me. Pardon me. So

8 back to Al and then Lucas. Now back to Alison.

9 MS. WILLIAMS: Yes. I mean, this goes back

10 to the issue I think we discussed last week, that from

11 a compliance and verification perspective, DOE

12 wouldn't really be able to use the clean water

13 definition because non-pump manufacturers can't

14 necessarily look at a pump and know that it is

15 designed for clean water. So it is something that

16 maybe is helpful for the pump manufacturers, but from

17 DOE's perspective, likely what would happen is they

18 would have to say, "Well, we have defined solids

19 handling. We know it is not that. We have defined

20 API 610. And we know it is not that." You know? And

21 so from a compliance and verification perspective,

22 that definition wouldn't really be used. So, I mean,
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1 I don't know if that has --

2 MR. BROOKMAN: Mark?

3 MR. HANDZEL: This is Mark Handzel from

4 Xylem. So what you're saying, instead of defining

5 clean water, we're going to define non-clean water is

6 what it sounded like because we consider this a design

7 parameter.

8 MR. HUBER: Yes.

9 MR. HANDZEL: Okay?

10 MS. WILLIAMS: Understood. And because it's

11 a design parameter, it's hard for someone who is not a

12 pump manufacturer to see what it is because we can't

13 say it's this type of impeller, has this clearance

14 since it has whatever.

15 MR. HUBER: Al Huber, Patterson. I don't

16 know who's going to be looking at this to try to

17 decide whether or not they're buying a clean water

18 pump or a non-clean water pump, but you're not going

19 to be able to tell if we don't define it either. So

20 your logic is that they can't look at it and tell it's

21 clean water. Well, if you follow your same logic,

22 they can't tell it's a solids-handling pump either.
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1 MS. WILLIAMS: Right. Because the pump

2 manufacturers said it was difficult to define a pump

3 designed for clean water but, instead, we could define

4 the exclusion. My understanding was from the

5 manufacturers' perspective, it was easier to define

6 what is excluded than to define actually how a pump is

7 designed for clean water. And so that's the path that

8 has been gone down.

9 MR. BROOKMAN: Greg Case?

10 MR. CASE: Greg Case, HI. Could we have ten

11 minutes maybe to try to talk this out --

12 MR. BROOKMAN: Sure.

13 MR. CASE: -- in a group to see if we can

14 figure --

15 MR. BROOKMAN: You know what? Let's take a

16 break. Before we go, Louis? And then we'll take a

17 break. Just a moment, Al. Louis?

18 MR. STARR: Louis Starr, NEEA. One thought

19 is I know that they do a crosswalk at DOE. It's a

20 connection between a regulatory and the industry

21 standards. So perhaps a crosswalk could be created

22 that interfaces between HI's and that follows the
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1 definition of clean water over to what's a regulatory

2 requirement that DOE or how to define pumps. There

3 might be a way like that. So essentially putting in

4 an appendix that people understand on the industry

5 side would be the intent of what is trying to be

6 accomplished, but the actual regulatory requirements

7 would still be what DOE's got that's real accurate.

8 MR. BROOKMAN: Let's give the members a

9 chance to consult. It's now 10:30. We'll resume at

10 10:45 here in the room. Please make sure to wear this

11 badge. There are restrooms on both ends of the hall.

12 Okay? We've made progress already this morning.

13 We'll see you back here at 10:45.

14 (Off the record.)

15 (On the record.)

16 MR. BROOKMAN: Let's resume, please. Let me

17 welcome Gary Fernstrom.

18 MR. FERNSTROM: Thank you.

19 MR. BROOKMAN: Glad you made it.

20 MR. FERNSTROM: It's nice to be here.

21 MR. BROOKMAN: Nice to have you here. We

22 have a surprisingly full complement of members given
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1 the weather that we have had here in the Washington,

2 D.C. area. And, Gary, so you know, both Meg Waltner

3 and Tom Eckman are joining us via the phone.

4 MR. FERNSTROM: Great. Okay.

5 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. This morning so far we

6 have done a few things very productively. Chuck

7 Powers' memo describing fire pumps, Navy pumps,

8 nuclear pumps, and marine pumps, we have gone through

9 that memo. And I think the group has confirmed

10 slightly different definitions for fire pumps, Navy

11 pumps, and nuclear pumps. And this group has decided

12 not to include marine pumps on the exclusions list.

13 And then we have just been going through

14 both the exclusions list and the parameters list. And

15 I think we're pretty darned close to having that

16 resolved as well.

17 Where we left off before the break -- and

18 the manufacturers wanted to caucus -- was whether we

19 needed a definition of clean water or whether we could

20 do without it given that the DOE has suggested that a

21 decision tree, which may obviate the need for a clean

22 water definition. So perhaps would the manufacturer
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1 caucus like to report back? Greg Case?

2 MR. CASE: I would. Greg Case, HI. We

3 believe that the clean water definition is fundamental

4 to this. It was in your original request for

5 information on this. All of the data that has been

6 provided to you has been based on that, that clean

7 water definition. So I believe we do need to have it

8 in one of the basic parameters that says this is what

9 this is going to cover, what this rulemaking is going

10 to cover.

11 MR. BROOKMAN: Alison, can you say again

12 why? Can you explain? Lucas, go ahead.

13 MR. ADIN: I can explain it.

14 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay.

15 MR. ADIN: I mean, I think from the general

16 -- I mean, Alison kind of already covered it from the

17 standpoint of determining which products are actually

18 subject to the standard or not. Once you get into

19 evaluating compliance and figuring out whether, you

20 know, a product has to meet the standard, how do you

21 distinguish two products that are very, very similar

22 in all their characteristics and one is clean water
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1 and one is not? Maybe they're just both clean water

2 because of their design and they meet all of these

3 other parameters.

4 And maybe this is a very simple issue that

5 we're having a hard time articulating, but I think

6 that is really what we are trying to feel reassured

7 about is, is there any situation in which a pump could

8 claim to be not clean water to avoid regulation, even

9 though it's otherwise physically the same type of

10 product.

11 MR. BROOKMAN: Greg?

12 MR. CASE: Greg Case, HI. I believe that --

13 and we talked a little bit of this. If the

14 manufacturer is going to put on his literature that

15 this is a clean water pump, he'd better have whatever

16 our rulemaking label, whatever it is, on that pump.

17 Now, if he doesn't claim that it's a water pump in his

18 literature, then maybe he doesn't have to have that.

19 MR. ADIN: Right.

20 MR. CASE: Is there a physical difference

21 where I can say, "That's a water pump" and "That's not

22 a water pump"? We're going to get way into the weeds
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1 on that.

2 MR. ADIN: Yes. Some of this might be just

3 a matter of us understanding the market a little bit,

4 but, you know, at the same time, you write a

5 regulation a certain way and it's going to affect the

6 market. So we can't just look at the way it is now

7 but the way it might be shaped by what we're doing.

8 MR. CASE: Certainly.

9 MR. ADIN: So maybe a better way to

10 articulate the question is, are there products that

11 are kind of on a boundary line between strictly clean

12 water and something else, where they could say it can

13 be used for clean water or it can be used for

14 applications, including clean water, or is there

15 anything like that or is it just clean water and

16 there's other stuff?

17 MR. FERNSTROM: Well, this is Gary. I don't

18 think the problem is so much that someone would claim

19 it's not a clean water pump when it is. The problem

20 is they would claim that it's not a clean water pump

21 in order to avoid the regulation. And that's the

22 loophole that we want to try and avoid.
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1 MS. WIDDER: So this is Sarah from PNNL. I

2 just -- I don't know -- am going to maybe try and say

3 this a different way. And I don't know if it's going

4 to help or not, but the issue the way that I see it is

5 not what a manufacturer claims it is or there's no

6 issue on the manufacturing side determining whether a

7 pump is clean water or not. It really comes on the

8 enforcement side. So if we add to that decision tree,

9 maybe out in on the left, "Is the pump designed for

10 clean water?" and that's the first decision point, how

11 is that enforced, similar to the definitions we had

12 for excluded products, fire pumps, solids handling

13 pumps, et cetera? That standard, how does that bear

14 on what the scope of pumps are? How do things fall in

15 or out of it?

16 And manufacturers may be able to make that

17 choice, but there also has to be sort of a check on

18 the manufacturers, not that we don't trust you guys.

19 How does someone other than a manufacturer enforce

20 that definition? So that is really what we are trying

21 to get at is, is the clean water definition

22 enforceable? Is it in product literature and we can
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1 tie it to that? If it is in product literature, for

2 example --

3 MR. ADIN: Product literature can change.

4 MS. WIDDER: Product literature can change.

5 MR. ADIN: The definition has to be

6 enforceable.

7 MR. BROOKMAN: Al Huber?

8 MR. ADIN: I think that's really what we're

9 getting at.

10 MR. BROOKMAN: Thank you, Lucas. Now to Al?

11 MR. HUBER: Al Huber, Patterson. If you

12 require it to be labeled in the regulation, whatever

13 you want to call it, PER I think you guys are calling

14 it, whatever it is you are calling it, -- we call it

15 MEI -- in order to be acceptable in the marketplace or

16 to be altered in the marketplace, if it's required to

17 be labeled that with that designation, then you are

18 not going to have any problem raising labels. It's

19 going to be obvious to the user and to everybody else

20 what that is for.

21 MS. WIDDER: Right. So theoretically --

22 this is Sarah from PNNL again. So we'll just play
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1 devil's advocate for a second. So all pumps that --

2 manufacturers determine which pumps they believe are

3 covered by the regulation and publishes the PER or MEI

4 or whatever the metric is for those pumps. And it's

5 clear to a user from that perspective, but say I'm a

6 manufacturer that wants to circumvent the regulation

7 and I just don't publish the PER for my scope of

8 pumps.

9 Yes? Go ahead.

10 MR. HUBER: Well, there's no way to stop

11 someone who is intent on cheating or doing wrong. We

12 see that every day, every day, in all walks of life.

13 However, we do watch the market as manufacturers.

14 Believe me, if we find somebody doing that, then we're

15 going to report them because we have gone to the

16 expense and the trouble to comply with the law. But

17 there's always people who don't comply with the law.

18 And, regardless of how you write it, --

19 MS. WIDDER: Right.

20 MR. HUBER: -- there is always -- somebody

21 is going to find some way to try to circumvent.

22 MS. WIDDER: I think that is completely
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1 right, Al. We try our best, but we --

2 MR. HUBER: And that is why I think if you

3 require a label to be put on that that it is for clean

4 water and here is its designated -- I mean, what is

5 going to prevent somebody if we don't put clean water

6 putting pumps out there with labels on them with an

7 MEI or a PER or whatever you want to call it this

8 fall? Nothing except unless we catch them doing it,

9 we as an industry or you as a regulator.

10 MR. ADIN: Right.

11 MR. HUBER: So that's the difference.

12 MS. WIDDER: Right.

13 MR. BROOKMAN: Lucas?

14 MR. ADIN: So labeling prospectively is

15 something that could help. I mean, it's something

16 that we have looked at for other products. Right? But

17 at the end of the day, the definition that we write

18 could still be applied, regardless of whether the

19 product has a label on it. So when it comes to

20 enforcing, whether it's for pumps or any other

21 product, we look at the definition and look at, does

22 the pump meet that definition? If it does, it's
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1 covered. And that's really it. It doesn't matter

2 whether it has a label on it.

3 So I just want to make sure that we have

4 written that definition in a way that we're not

5 unintentionally excluding something we intended to

6 include and that someone couldn't get around the

7 definition itself in a way that we wouldn't want them

8 to. You know, in the most simple terms, that's the

9 best --

10 MR. BROOKMAN: Al, follow-on?

11 MR. HUBER: Well, one of the problems that

12 we're having with this is that your framework document

13 originally said it was for clean water. I mean, you

14 made it very clear. And all of the information that

15 we have sent out to our membership and to the entire

16 industry is "We want you to report data. And here is

17 the definition of clean water." And we gave it to

18 them. And so everybody has reported, then, in that

19 manner.

20 Now to come and say, "We don't need a

21 definition of clean water" --

22 MR. HANDZEL: It changes the scope.
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1 MR. HUBER: -- it changes the scope to us.

2 All we're saying is as an industry group, if you don't

3 want to put it down as a parameter, we at least want

4 you to put in the regulation it is your intent --

5 MR. ADIN: Right.

6 MR. HUBER: -- because it certainly was your

7 intent because that is what you said originally.

8 MR. ADIN: And our intent did not change.

9 MR. HUBER: Well, then so we would ask you

10 to say that in the --

11 MR. ADIN: Okay.

12 MR. BROOKMAN: Let me just clarify what we

13 have been thinking, how we got to this point. We went

14 through all of this, this logic. And our

15 understanding was that if you go through all of this,

16 the exclusions, and you define these particular types

17 of pumps, really, all you should have is clean water

18 pumps because if that's not true, that means maybe

19 there are other things we need to specifically exclude

20 or -- do you see what I mean?

21 MR. HUBER: Well, yes. I see what you mean,

22 but I think there is nothing to prevent someone from
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1 pumping with a pump that is not intended for clean

2 water, clean water. I mean, they could. If it will

3 pump raw sewage, it will pump clean water.

4 MR. ADIN: Right.

5 MR. HUBER: Now, nobody in their right mind

6 is going to do it because it's not going to be as

7 efficient. And there are a lot of parameters around

8 that. There's nothing to prevent them from doing that

9 except if you label it and say it's for clean water

10 and you put that, whatever that final regulation, is,

11 that MEI or whatever, that it has to meet on there and

12 enforce that, if you don't do that, then this

13 regulation won't work. You've got to have some way to

14 enforce it. We want you to enforce it, believe me.

15 MR. ADIN: Yes.

16 MR. HUBER: The manufacturers, the

17 legitimate manufacturers, in this country want it

18 enforced.

19 MR. BROOKMAN: Chuck, you are next.

20 MR. POWERS: Yes. And there are a few

21 things here just to help me to get through this

22 process. One, we used the term "Lot 11," which refers
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1 to what the EU did. Right? We're all trying to go

2 down some paths. So maybe wrong, maybe right, we have

3 a premonition, thinking we're trying to get some kind

4 of a guideline that another group has already defined;

5 right? So we're coming over here to the U.S. now.

6 We're kind of following a similar path.

7 MR. ADIN: Yes.

8 MR. POWERS: So in our minds, we're sticking

9 to that. They clearly talk about the clean water.

10 They actually wrote a product spec so you don't get

11 into these ambiguities and issues and who, what, and

12 where; right?

13 They also have what they call a section IV,

14 which is the verification procedure. You know, do the

15 manufacturers have to test the unit? They improve it.

16 And they get a stamp, like the CE or something, so

17 when they ship the product that's on there, if you

18 don't have that, then you don't have it because I

19 think one of the things we're also trying to say is if

20 Al's company and Mark's company and Charlie's and all

21 are going down a path and so are we and we're all

22 happy about it, what prevents that guy from the other
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1 side of the water from sneaking in here and taking

2 jobs away or impacting this thing negatively?

3 And you brought up this word "trust." It

4 always interested me why people always throw that

5 "trust" word in there. That shouldn't even be part of

6 the topic. We're trying to define guidelines and all

7 working together; right?

8 So I think the word "clean" water is pretty

9 simple in its own way by saying we're trying to comply

10 with a spec. And if somebody goes to the field, goes

11 down that category, you know, that they try to sneak

12 out of it, the first thing you say is, "What are you

13 pumping?" Forget about the pump for a minute. "What

14 are you pumping?" It's clean water.

15 Then you go down the other, you know,

16 because a nuclear pump pumps water. Right? But

17 because it's nuclear, it's off the list. You know

18 what I mean? So it's a process of elimination; right,

19 that we're working down here. We're not trying to get

20 into it, but we're trying to define what those items

21 are; right?

22 MR. BROOKMAN: Let me clarify. These pumps,
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1 your pumps, most of them have a nameplate or some sort

2 of a stamp or some sort of a --

3 MR. POWERS: They all have nameplates.

4 MR. HUBER: They all have nameplates of some

5 kind.

6 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Yes.

7 MR. POWERS: With a serial number, basic

8 hydraulic information, and stuff so if somebody wanted

9 a part or whatever, they can go and they can see what

10 it is and get basics.

11 MR. HUBER: This is Al Huber, Patterson. If

12 the DOE does not require a label, then we're going to

13 institute our own label as an industry, try to,

14 because we think that is the only way we are ever

15 going to be able to enforce this thing.

16 MR. BROOKMAN: Joanna?

17 MR. HUBER: That's all I'm suggesting to

18 you, Lucas. Do we seriously consider doing that? And

19 if you do that, then all these other parameters go

20 away. You don't have to worry about somebody sneaking

21 in. If they're using it for clean water and it

22 doesn't have that label on it, then you're in trouble.
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1 MR. BROOKMAN: So that was Al Huber.

2 MS. WIDDER: Do you want to go?

3 MR. BROOKMAN: Go ahead, Lucas or Sarah.

4 Which one?

5 NS. WIDDER: Okay.

6 MR. BROOKMAN: Sarah?

7 MS. WIDDER: So just on that line of

8 inquiry, Al, I think we're actually sort of close to

9 each other. I don't think we're disagreeing that

10 much, but one thing that I am concerned about is so

11 say there is some manufacturer that comes from across

12 the pond or whatever and introduces pumps that are in

13 the scope, should meet the DOE regulations, should be

14 certified, but they don't want to certify them and

15 they're not and they're selling them and competing

16 with certified pumps and they don't have a label. So

17 say that you report them or someone reports them. On

18 what basis? We need like a really defensible basis.

19 Okay. Go for it.

20 MR. ADIN: Yes. This is Lucas with DOE. So,

21 to clarify that --

22 MS. WIDDER: Yes.
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1 MR. ADIN: -- coverage is not determined by

2 what to put on the label.

3 MS. WIDDER: Right.

4 MR. ADIN: It's determined by the

5 definition.

6 MR. POWERS: Right.

7 MR. ADIN: So, regardless of what they put

8 on the label, if it meets the definition, they just

9 don't put on the label that it's a clean water pump,

10 well, then they're violating the label requirement if

11 you pull them in there.

12 MR. POWERS: But that doesn't --

13 MR. ADIN: It is really the definition that

14 is controlling all of this.

15 MR. POWERS: This is Chuck again. The guy

16 from overseas or somewhere can come in and say, "This

17 is nuclear power." Right?

18 MS. WIDDER: Right.

19 MR. POWERS: This is the power company. They

20 come with all of their stuff. But at the end of the

21 day --

22 MR. ADIN: They have to be in the exclusion.
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1 MR. POWERS: -- they have to meet, you know.

2 And somebody, either the authority writing the spec

3 for the job or the municipality that's buying it or

4 whomever, they're going to sit there and say, you

5 know, "Wait a minute," you know, or we could step up

6 and say, "Who are the qualified bidders? Wait a

7 minute. Where do they meet? Where do they meet the

8 government standard for this?"

9 MR. ADIN: Right.

10 MR. POWERS: And they would have to step up

11 and --

12 MR. HUBER: Yes. They would have to show

13 that. I mean, we do that every day.

14 MR. POWERS: Yes.

15 MR. HUBER: We do it for fire pumps.

16 MR. POWERS: Yes.

17 MR. HUBER: We have done it for all these

18 other things that we do that have regulations or have

19 things. We call attention to the regulatory

20 authorities immediately if we find it. And we do find

21 it on occasion. That's why I'm telling you you can't

22 stop these guys from cheating.
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1 MS. WIDDER: Right.

2 MR. HUBER: They're going to try. But

3 you've got to have a way to stop them. And I

4 appreciate what you're saying, that you're -- the

5 definition is what defines it.

6 MR. ADIN: Right. So --

7 MR. BROOKMAN: This is Al.

8 MR. HUBER: It should be taken in total

9 --

10 MR. ADIN: Right.

11 MR. HUBER: -- not separate. I mean, you

12 are taking all of these parameters in total. It's

13 clean water. It does this. It does this. And it

14 doesn't do this. And it doesn't do this. All those

15 things wrapped together, I think, keep it solid if you

16 have a labeling and regulatory scheme behind it.

17 MR. ADIN: I think we just want to have an

18 assurance that if we use clean water as a defining

19 characteristic of the pumps that we're trying to cover

20 that's not going to give people a way to get around

21 it. You know, if we can be pretty sure about that,

22 then --
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1 MR. HUBER: I think if you label it -- this

2 is Al Huber again. I'm sorry, Doug.

3 MR. BROOKMAN: You're doing well. Keep

4 going.

5 MR. HUBER: I think if you label it and

6 require something on the label with the EEI or MEI or

7 PER that's got to be there -- and, you know, I mean,

8 you might could -- I don't know. There's got to be

9 some kind of lab, some kind of certification, testing

10 done, you know. So I don't know how you do that, but

11 you might want a number on it that says you'll look at

12 this number and this number says, "This pump is

13 certified." I don't know, but --

14 MR. POWERS: This is Chuck speaking. If you

15 look at -- I mean, I'm just assuming simple examples -

16 - NSF. Okay? You know, the recent one is NSF. They

17 literally have a website. And they literally list

18 those companies comply. And when you ship an NSF

19 pump, you get a label they put on. Now, I can't

20 remember. It has to go on the nameplate or they allow

21 you to attach a separate one next to the nameplate. I

22 don't remember because, you know, nameplates are made
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1 by the millions. And we don't know where we can --

2 MR. BROOKMAN: Rob's behind you saying,

3 "Both."

4 MR. BOTELER: Motors compliance number

5 --

6 MR. POWERS: Right.

7 MR. BOTELER: -- issued to the manufacturer

8 --

9 MR. POWERS: Right.

10 MR. BOTELER: -- every nameplate. There is

11 my compliance number.

12 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. So thank you for that.

13 Now to Greg. And, Joanna, thanks for being patient.

14 Greg?

15 MR. CASE: Greg Case, HI. That's what I was

16 going to say, is I think where Al was going with this

17 is a certified list of pumps. And if your pump is not

18 certified on this list, much like a CE mark in Europe.

19 If you don't have a CE mark, you don't get to sell it.

20 MR. ADIN: So the only problem from our

21 standpoint is that DOE relies on self- certification

22 by manufacturers. So the manufacturers certify to DOE
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1 that their product meets the standard if it's subject

2 to the standard. So, really, the question is more we

3 found this pump that is being sold that hasn't been

4 certified to DOE and, you know, by all outward

5 appearances, has the characteristics and the

6 parameters and all these things that suggest that it

7 should be subject to a standard. But then we come to

8 the manufacturer and ask, "Well, you know, why isn't

9 your pump certified?"

10 And they say, "Well, it's not a clean water

11 pump."

12 So I guess that, really, that's in the most

13 general sense I can express it.

14 MS. WIDDER: And I just want to add one more

15 thing to --

16 MR. BROOKMAN: Sarah Widder?

17 MS. WIDDER: This is Sarah Widder. Yes. I

18 think that was a really good example. And then if the

19 manufacturer says it's not a clean water pump and DOE

20 says, "Yes, it is" --

21 MR. HANDZEL: How do we define that?

22 MS. WIDDER: How do we define it? Who is
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1 right and who is wrong? You know, we need some sort

2 of line in the sand. Otherwise, it's just their word

3 against ours or yours.

4 MR. BROOKMAN: Could you use both? Could you

5 use the decision tree and the definition or would that

6 just muddy things up?

7 MR. ADIN: Well, the definition really is --

8 it's all of that. It's designed to incorporate all of

9 those things so that you can look at a single pump and

10 go through that whole tree and figure out whether the

11 single pump would be subject to the standard or not.

12 MS. WIDDER: I think the design is parallel

13 paths, but it's best perhaps not to have -- well,

14 theoretically you don't want to have parallel paths if

15 one of them is more guidance.

16 MR. BROOKMAN: Yes, yes.

17 MS. WILLIAMS: So we actually --

18 MR. BROOKMAN: Alison?

19 MS. WILLIAMS: -- originally when we did

20 this decision tree thought about putting clean water

21 in the first one, like "Is this pump designed for

22 clean water?"
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1 From an enforcement end, the answer to that

2 question is always "Not sure." And then you have to

3 move on to the other ones.

4 MR. POWERS: Okay. So --

5 MS. WILLIAMS: So for you guys; right, you

6 can look at it and be like "Yep. Clean water."

7 MR. POWERS: But, to help you, somebody --

8 this is Chuck -- who comes to the table, like you

9 said, it's a perfect example. Okay? EU -- I'm not

10 saying they did it right, but, again, they have a

11 product spec. As Greg probably would do, you hire a

12 consultant. They argue, "Oh, that's not a clean water

13 pump." Okay. The first thing I am going to do, I'm

14 going to bring in my instruments. And I'm going to go

15 test the fluid. And if the free solid content that we

16 wrote in there is greater than .25 kilograms per cubic

17 meter and dissolved solid content is this and all

18 that, if we define, that's clean water.

19 MS. WIDDER: But that's an application.

20 MR. BROOKMAN: It's still sitting on the

21 shelf.

22 MS. WILLIAMS: Right.
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1 MR. POWERS: What I'm saying is you start

2 there.

3 MR. BROOKMAN: It's still sitting on the

4 shelf.

5 MS. WILLIAMS: On the shelf, you don't know

6 what it's pumping.

7 MR. HUBER: Well, that's the problem.

8 MS. WIDDER: Yes. I mean, because this is

9 as it's sold.

10 MR. BROOKMAN: Charlie, thank you. You're

11 next.

12 MR. CAPPELLINO: Well, I think Al mentioned

13 an alternative position here a few minutes ago. And,

14 actually, Louis mentioned it earlier. Maybe the best

15 approach here is to basically use it as to kind of

16 frame up what the intent is. And maybe we can just

17 leave it at that. So it helps from the point of view

18 of interpretation of what the intent here is. So it

19 can't be maybe not necessarily part of the regulation

20 because it is ambiguous, but it can frame up what the

21 design intent is that --

22 MALE SPEAKER: I think you need to use the
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1 words "design intent" --

2 MALE SPEAKER: Right.

3 MR. BROOKMAN: I'm confused because if the

4 Department of Energy establishes a standard that says

5 this group of pumps needs to meet that standard, to be

6 sold in the U.S.A., doesn't it require some sort of a

7 certification or label, period, a priori? Isn't that

8 just a requirement for sale in the U.S.?

9 MR. HUBER: No.

10 MR. BROOKMAN: No? There isn't some sort of

11 a --

12 MR. ADIN: Let me clarify that. If a given

13 product is subject to a DOE energy conservation

14 standard, it does have to be certified before being

15 distributed in commerce.

16 MR. BROOKMAN: By somebody.

17 MR. ADIN: Right.

18 MR. BROOKMAN: Yes.

19 MR. ADIN: But you still have to have a way

20 to distinguish in the event that a product has not

21 been certified whether, in fact, it is subject to

22 standards. So I think that is really what we're
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1 dealing with. If it's --

2 MS. WIDDER: Because somebody is the

3 manufacturer.

4 MR. BROOKMAN: Right, right.

5 MR. ADIN: Right. So if it's certified or

6 not certified doesn't by itself distinguish whether it

7 is covered because the manufacturer is

8 --

9 MR. BROOKMAN: I thought that most

10 manufacturers or all manufacturers if it was a

11 certified product would want to have some sort of a

12 label or some sort of a designation so they could say,

13 "Look, my product is certified. This differentiates

14 me from that cheap foreign competition or whatever it

15 would be.

16 MS. WILLIAMS: Right, but the cheap foreign

17 competition maybe does not care.

18 MS. WIDDER: Still exists.

19 MS. WILLIAMS: Right? So --

20 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay.

21 MR. ADIN: That possibility exists. So

22 logically it would help to --
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1 MR. HUBER: We go to do that.

2 MR. BROOKMAN: Charlie, you are next.

3 MR. CAPPELLINO: I just wanted to clarify.

4 My understanding is we can regulate and write rules

5 around a product, but you can't necessarily regulate

6 the application. Is that correct?

7 MR. HUBER: That is correct.

8 MR. CAPPELLINO: Right. So, for example, if

9 somebody were to sell a certified product and the

10 customer chose to put that into a water application or

11 a non-water application --

12 MR. ADIN: Right.

13 MR. CAPPELLINO: -- you really don't have

14 any control over that. All you have control over is

15 what leaves the manufacturer's facility. Is that

16 correct?

17 MR. ADIN: That is right. That is right.

18 So that actually gets -- I'm sorry. I didn't mean to

19 interrupt.

20 MR. CAPPELLINO: No. Go ahead.

21 MR. ADIN: Another element of this question

22 about how to use the term "clean water" is how you
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1 employ that in the definitions. So is it capable of

2 use for clean water? Is it --

3 MR. HANDZEL: No. Could it?

4 MR. ADIN: -- designed for use for clean

5 water?

6 MR. CAPPELLINO: Yes.

7 MR. ADIN: Is it designed for only clean

8 water, like those things? You know, you have to be

9 very clear about exactly --

10 MR. HUBER: Designed for --

11 MR. CAPPELLINO: Yes. I think this was a

12 design --

13 MR. BROOKMAN: So that was Lucas. I'm

14 wondering. Joanna, you have been very, very patient.

15 I don't know whether you've still got something you

16 wish to add here. I'm wondering if the energy

17 efficiency advocacy caucus has anything to contribute

18 about this, where we are with this issue.

19 MS. MAUER: This is Joanna. Maybe just a

20 question. Are there definitions for solids handling,

21 for example? And are those definitions -- does using

22 those definitions make it easier to identify what is
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1 clean water versus what is solids handling compared to

2 the new definition for clean water?

3 MR. BROOKMAN: I see Gary. Go ahead, Gary.

4 MR. FERNSTROM: I think Lucas made it very,

5 very clear. It looks like the fundamental problem is

6 that clean water is an application. And there really

7 isn't any clear way to determine whether pumps sold in

8 the market are exclusively capable of pumping clean

9 water or might pump some other fluid that would not be

10 clean water. So we have a little bit of a dilemma

11 that we need to work through in order to avoid lack of

12 clarity in what we do.

13 MR. BROOKMAN: Just a practicality. The

14 reason you chose Lot 11 was because EU spent a

15 significant amount of time doing this work. It set a

16 precedent that there is test procedure, there is all

17 of this specification, all of this stuff that went

18 with it, but also clean water pumps, one to two

19 hundred horsepower and the like, that's the

20 predominant. That's the great, great majority of

21 pumps out there, period; right? So, I mean,

22 presumably -- I'm just following that logic about the
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1 practicalities of it.

2 Joanna?

3 MS. MAUER: Joanna. I just wanted to

4 clarify. I think we all have the same intent in terms

5 of what pumps we want to cover. Just how do we craft

6 the definitions or exclusions to get there? Do you

7 define clean water? Do you define all of the pumps

8 that are non-clean water? So I don't think it's a

9 question of what we are trying to include or exclude

10 but just how we get there in terms of definitions.

11 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. So, then, any

12 additions to the discussion at this point? Maybe we

13 just should walk away from it for a while and see if

14 something emerges. Greg, do you want to add in here?

15 MR. CASE: Just to one of Joanna's remarks.

16 This is Greg Case from HI. I think trying to define

17 what isn't clean water gets very messy very fast. I

18 think that would be tough to do. Defining what clean

19 water we thought was pretty clean, but obviously we

20 have a --

21 MR. HUBER: No pun intended.

22 MR. CASE: Yes. No pun intended. But we
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1 obviously have an issue in defining what makes a clean

2 water pump different than a non-clean water pump or a

3 pump that could be used for other services.

4 MR. BROOKMAN: Lucas?

5 MR. ADIN: Lucas. Just I don't know if you

6 can answer this offhand, but does the scope of pumps

7 change significantly if you're talking about pumps

8 capable, like within the parameters we're considering

9 and the pump types and all of that, Lot 11, you know,

10 and all of that, pumps capable of pumping clean water

11 versus pumps designed specifically only for clean

12 water? Like are you

13 --

14 MR. HUBER: Every pump that you see on this

15 list --

16 MR. ADIN: Yes.

17 MR. HUBER: -- no matter what color it is --

18 MR. ADIN: Yes.

19 MR. HUBER: -- could potentially pump clean.

20 MR. ADIN: Right. You have to be really

21 careful about --

22 MR. HANDZEL: It's the easiest application.
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1 MR. ADIN: Right.

2 MR. HUBER: Now, would you do it? No, but -

3 -

4 MR. HANDZEL: There are costs. There are

5 cost barriers. There's --

6 MR. HUBER: There are other barriers to it.

7 MR. ADIN: And so I --

8 MR. HUBER: And every one of them could pump

9 clean water, yes.

10 MR. POWERS: There are a few pump types. If

11 you just took it -- there's no such thing as off-the12 shelf in some of the higher gradient pumps, but if you

13 take some of -- this is Chuck speaking -- those pump

14 types and try to pump water, they will fail.

15 MR. HUBER: Yes.

16 MR. POWERS: Yes. All right? So let's make

17 that clear. I mean, let's not take it carte blanche

18 that --

19 MR. HUBER: That's true.

20 MR. POWERS: -- pump made -- some of the API

21 chemicals, you get into others. You try taking pump

22 water. Pump water is the toughest fluid to move. I
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1 don't know if you --

2 MR. BROOKMAN: Yes.

3 MR. POWERS: It is. It literally is the

4 toughest because it's not very lubricity. It's not

5 very -- you know, it's --

6 MR. BROOKMAN: Yes. Al made the point

7 earlier these clean water pumps are designed to move

8 clean water. The impellers are distinctive,

9 everything about it; right?

10 MR. POWERS: Clearances.

11 MR. BROOKMAN: Louis? Louis?

12 MR. STARR: So, as far as defining non13 clean, perhaps a way to do it is non-clean pump can be

14 a pump that pumps a fluid, anything other than what is

15 -- and they define clean water. So you just define it

16 as anything that is not clean water is non-clean

17 water?

18 MR. BROOKMAN: Yes. And, Greg, I lost what

19 you said earlier. Joanna's logic is maybe we can

20 define non-clean water. Did you say that is a

21 sensible thing to do or that is not?

22 MR. HANDZEL: No. It's too broad, too
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1 broad.

2 MR. CASE: No. Sorry. Greg Case with HI.

3 We would spend the next six months trying to define

4 what is not clean water.

5 MR. BROOKMAN: I see.

6 MS. WILLIAMS: All right. This is Alison.

7 So my understanding; right -- I mean, this goes back

8 to the framework meeting a year ago. And the

9 understanding was that clean water is too hard to

10 define with physical characteristics. But my

11 understanding was that it was easier to define with

12 physical characteristics these things we have decided

13 to exclude, you know, solids handling, API 610, ASME

14 chemical pumps.

15 And at the last meeting, I think one of the

16 advocates asked if anything else needed to be added to

17 this list that was also not clean water. And that's

18 where, you know, the nuclear, Navy, and sanitary pumps

19 came from.

20 I mean, to me, this is the same process we

21 have been following all along. So I guess --

22 MR. BROOKMAN: You see the logic in it. Go
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1 ahead. Stand up and speak.

2 MR. THOMPSON: Steve Thompson, TACO. Do I

3 really have to stand up?

4 MR. BROOKMAN: Come up by the microphone.

5 MR. THOMPSON: So, as an observer, I have

6 been listening to this conversation with great

7 interest, the interest being if you guys do clean

8 water or not clean water and stuff like that, are

9 there any missed energy savings opportunities that are

10 going to be not part of this group if you actually

11 nailed down the clean water and gray water and sewage,

12 all that kind of stuff?

13 Now, the energy savings opportunity, you're

14 either going to be looking at relatively high

15 horsepower, low number of unit sales volumes of

16 devices that are using electricity or, conversely,

17 you're going to be using low-wattage, high-volume

18 things, like circulators, which think of them as a

19 light bulb. So I can think of one thing that if you

20 left it at clean water, that you would be missing an

21 energy-saving opportunity.

22 There are millions. Just as one example,
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1 there are millions of submersible sump pumps sold in

2 the United States every year. So if you just left

3 this at clean water -- now, granted, those are mostly

4 and just about all in residential applications.

5 And I get it that they don't run all of the

6 time or very often and stuff like that. But in the

7 same respect as talking to regulating circulators, if

8 you -- anything this Committee does that takes this

9 stuff out of the scope by saying, "Well, okay. A sump

10 pump, it is not clean water. So it's not part of this

11 stuff," you guys are going to have to walk away after

12 this is all done and say, "Well, you know what? We

13 missed those."

14 Can I get off my soap box now?

15 MR. BROOKMAN: Thank you. Please take the

16 paper off the microphone. Thank you.

17 So I think we'll take final comments here,

18 but I think we should just let this lie for a little

19 bit and see if we can come up with anything over this

20 panel the next day and a half.

21 Paul Lin, go ahead.

22 MR. LIN: Just maybe a comment is why not
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1 just leave in the language "intended to be installed"

2 or say "installed in a clean water application"

3 because at the end of the day; right, if it's on the

4 shelf, you can't tell what the application is, but

5 before you guys are going to say, "The act of

6 noncompliance is that when you see it installed or

7 sold to your end user," that's where you're going to

8 get flagged, where you're going to set the flag. So

9 why can't you just say, "installed in a clean water

10 application" and then, therefore, you have the

11 mechanism to go from an enforcement standpoint?

12 MR. ADIN: It's just not really the way our

13 regs work. You're regulated to a manufactured product

14 level. So you define what is covered based on the

15 characteristics and the parameters, not based on how

16 its intent is or how it will be used. You know, we

17 want to control that --

18 MR. LIN: As it is shipped perhaps; right?

19 MR. ADIN: As manufacturers.

20 MR. LIN: As manufacturers, yes.

21 MR. BROOKMAN: Gary Fernstrom?

22 MR. FERNSTROM: I'd like to conclude and
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1 follow your advice to table this with one comment. And

2 that would be I like Alison's idea that every pump is

3 a clean water pump unless it's excluded.

4 MR. BROOKMAN: Yes.

5 MR. FERNSTROM: And we should just develop

6 for ourselves a list of pumps that we don't want to

7 consider.

8 MR. BROOKMAN: Yes. You probably can't read

9 it, but that's the logic that's in that decision tree

10 that was up there and also in your packet.

11 MR. FERNSTROM: And, frankly, I don't see

12 any alternative to that.

13 MR. BROOKMAN: Except that the

14 manufacturers, their whole framework concept from the

15 beginning has been built on this definition of clean

16 water.

17 MR. FERNSTROM: I understand that, but that

18 we have discovered is an application. And these rules

19 are not usually application-sensitive.

20 MR. BROOKMAN: Lucas?

21 MR. ADIN: Well, maybe I can try and see if

22 I can bring a little more clarity to what we're trying
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1 to get to the bottom of here. I mean, we have already

2 talked about it, but at least in the way that I'm

3 thinking about it, clean water in itself as far as how

4 the pump could be used is certainly an application.

5 But there are, from everything I have heard,

6 differences between pumps that are designed for that

7 purpose and pumps that are designed for other

8 purposes. I think we're just trying to get to the

9 bottom of what's the barrier between those pumps and

10 these. And it sounds like there isn't a clear way you

11 can write a single definition, what's that barrier

12 between clean water and what isn't; right?

13 MR. BROOKMAN: Al Huber?

14 MR. HUBER: Al Huber, Patterson Pumps.

15 MR. BROOKMAN: Yes. Thank you, Al.

16 MR. HUBER: The problem really is not -- one

17 thing that we're concerned about or from our side is

18 that, you know, we haven't gone and searched every

19 possible pump to make sure that we have got them all

20 covered in the exclusions. These are the ones that

21 came to our mind right away because they are fairly

22 obvious. But we don't know what we -- I mean, we
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1 might do undue harm to some company and not know it.

2 And that's what we're a little bit concerned about.

3 We haven't, you know, looked at all of the

4 possibilities of what might ought to be excluded under

5 those. That is why the broader definition of clean

6 water was kind of important, so to speak.

7 MR. BROOKMAN: Gary Fernstrom?

8 MR. HUBER: We can go back and take a look.

9 MR. BROOKMAN: Yes?

10 MR. FERNSTROM: This is Gary. And, Lucas,

11 conversely, we, the energy efficiency advocates,

12 haven't looked at all of the potential lost

13 opportunities either. So, you know, that is kind of a

14 dilemma from each group's perspective.

15 MR. BROOKMAN: Chuck?

16 MR. POWERS: With all that said, I'll go

17 back to the basics. There were a bunch of very smart

18 people in a room, several rooms, several meetings, in

19 the EU that went through this. You know, I circled

20 them. This is the official list. But they defined and

21 looked at all of those aspects and the kinds of pumps;

22 right? And HI does a nice job. I'm thinking of just
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1 referring to it as nice truck -- look at one thing.

2 API has theirs. Chemical guys have theirs. They

3 defined all of these pages of the products.

4 And the EU group went through and tried to

5 define what they felt was from a whole list of

6 parameters, install base, the most units, you know,

7 what makes the most sense, et cetera. And I think

8 they came down to it said, of all those ones that

9 we're interested in just happened to be clean water

10 pumps, the majority of them, I think; right?

11 And that's where they went further, wanted

12 to meet those. I had said, "Okay. Clean water pumps

13 means this, and now we have the Lot 11," which is

14 probably the second box up there the way I see it.

15 And, you know, they have the -- then they went down

16 the exclusion list. Let's not waste time on those.

17 Get them out of the way.

18 So we keep going back, but there is a lot of

19 work done on this. There is a purpose here; right?

20 MR. BROOKMAN: Yes, you described their

21 logic. And you are also saying the Europeans didn't

22 come up with, after all of this work, a better schema.
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1 MR. POWERS: Right. Now, someone might

2 argue -- and it's a very fair statement that Gary

3 brought up -- we call it OH-7. They call it this. And

4 DOE has their version, which is very similar to the

5 EU.

6 MR. BROOKMAN: Right.

7 MR. POWERS: So okay. Maybe there is

8 something there that Al was bringing up that we may

9 have missed. I don't know, you know, because I don't

10 make every pump out there. And I don't think anybody

11 here does, you know.

12 MR. BROOKMAN: So I think we've covered this

13 adequately for the moment. Let's table further

14 discussion on this. We'll resurface this in this

15 panel the next day and a half. Maybe some additional

16 thoughts will come around. We'll see what happens.

17 Do you want a final comment, Gary, before we

18 move on?

19 MR. FERNSTROM: I'd like to pose a question

20 for Chuck to think about when we bring this up later.

21 And that would be this doesn't seem to be a problem in

22 the EU. How have they avoided the sort of problems
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1 that we fear here?

2 MR. POWERS: Well, --

3 MR. FERNSTROM: You don't have to answer

4 that question right now unless you want to, but --

5 MR. POWERS: I can talk about it later. I've

6 been at both meetings. I think some of the other

7 people here have. In my perspective, if it's a Navy

8 pump, it has a product spec that somebody sits down

9 and says, "What are we going to qualify this?"

10 The EU did a nice job. And I'm sure this is

11 where Lucas is going to go. And the consultant is

12 going to help him. They're going to come up with some

13 kind of a regulation of, you know, something, just

14 like they did on motors. They're doing it on

15 everything else.

16 And when you look at the EU, they did a nice

17 job of defining it, even clarified not just the chart

18 like that. You know, what is a clean water? What

19 does that really mean? And what is a fire pump? And

20 what is a positive displacement pump, even the ones

21 that are excluded; right? They go, and it's defined a

22 little bit; right? But they also go into the
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1 regulation, the testing. And they have here what's

2 called section IV, "Verification Procedure."

3 What if doing a test, you fall outside of

4 that? Well, you have a form you fill. You go back to

5 those. They call it the stakes; right, the EU union

6 and all of that. And they have to get approval, you

7 know, clarification. Here is the test we did. And

8 here's what went wrong. You know, everybody is

9 saying. And then they have it very simple, which is

10 indicative benchmarks, you know.

11 So, in other words, there is a bona fide

12 piece of paper that says, "Mr. Pump Manufacturer, if

13 you're going to do this to meet these MEI, read this

14 first because if you're not going to comply with this,

15 then " --

16 MR. FERNSTROM: So your perspective is there

17 is enough backup word to avoid this uncertainty that

18 we sort of fear?

19 MR. POWERS: I believe so. But there is

20 another thing that Al brought up. And we all see it

21 every day. We go see a spec. And there's three pump

22 guys listed. And we see one that we know "Wait a
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1 minute. I don't think they've qualified to this." We

2 raise our hand. This is before it gets to the field,

3 you know, when they're specifying a pump and whatever.

4 We deal with that every day; right?

5 And, you know, somebody is funding it. Where

6 is the money trail? And how is that being done;

7 right?

8 MR. BROOKMAN: So let's table the

9 discussion. This has been productive and not resolved

10 yet.

11 Let me welcome Steve Rosenstock, who has

12 just joined us. Glad you made it. We have had

13 several individuals who have joined us late, had

14 difficulty getting here, and all that sort of thing.

15 But we're almost fully staffed up at this point. So

16 that's the good news. Tom Eckman and Meg Waltner,

17 they're both joining us via the phone.

18 What should we do next? One thing is Alison

19 has been working on some new data -- you're not done

20 yet -- for circulators. And Gary had some data also

21 for circulators.

22 MR. FERNSTROM: I do, but I'd like to share
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1 it tomorrow, if I may. I have like three or four

2 slides I'd just like to throw up showing what we found

3 with our first look at 12 circulators.

4 MR. BROOKMAN: And you would like to show it

5 tomorrow because it's not quite ready to be shown yet?

6 MR. FERNSTROM: It's because I haven't got

7 my head together, frankly.

8 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. We want you to have

9 your head together. That's useful.

10 And, Steve, this morning we went again and

11 took a look at exclusions and parameters. And in

12 discussion, I think we have largely zeroed in and

13 clarified virtually all of these items. And just

14 before you walked in the door, we had a lengthy

15 discussion on whether we needed a clean water

16 definition --

17 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Right.

18 MR. BROOKMAN: -- or whether there was some

19 way using a combination of exclusions and parameters

20 to provide a substitute for enforcement purposes for -

21 -

22 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Page 8 of the slide set,
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1 basically. Is that what you are discussing?

2 MR. BROOKMAN: If they sent over the slides,

3 the flowchart.

4 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Seven and 8? Gotcha.

5 MR. BROOKMAN: And the clean water

6 definition on 8; right.

7 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Okay.

8 MR. BROOKMAN: And so that's where we left

9 it. And that's where we're going to now table that.

10 What should we do next? Lucas?

11 MR. ADIN: Well, I'll make a suggestion. At

12 least from my standpoint, it -- I mean, we can table

13 clean water for now. Obviously we're going to have to

14 come back to it.

15 MR. BROOKMAN: Obviously.

16 MR. ADIN: If not today, then definitely

17 tomorrow because we have got to get this nailed down,

18 you know, in the next two days to get all of the scope

19 settled, you know, again, from my standpoint anyway.

20 But we still have a few other things that we're still

21 -- you know, we still have open, I think. On the

22 parameters list, it seems like there are a couple of
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1 things that we're still talking about. And then there

2 were a couple of types of pumps beyond the Lot 11 that

3 we were still talking about. So that's another area

4 that we still --

5 MR. BROOKMAN: Well, let's look at the

6 parameters on slide 5. I thought we had basically

7 resolved and dealt with every one of these now except

8 for whether pumps designed for clean water, the first

9 one, should be included, you know, whether the

10 definition would be a substitute, whether that's --

11 anyway, I didn't know how to -- every one of these

12 other ones I thought we have basically gone through.

13 MS. WILLIAMS: So at the last meeting, we

14 put "Okays" next to the ones that everyone had pretty

15 much agreed to. And the speeds and the bowl diameters

16 did not get okayed. But earlier no one had anything

17 to say about it.

18

19 MR. BROOKMAN: When I was writing the

20 meeting summary, I read more than once all of the

21 discussion surrounding six-inch or smaller bowl

22 diameter. It seemed like by the end of that, we were
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1 pretty much resolved that six-inch or smaller would

2 satisfy, that would be adequately descriptive. All

3 the discussion on three-inch, four-inch, all that

4 stuff, that's my -- I hope everyone -- maybe everyone

5 can confirm whether that is their recollection or

6 maybe they think differently today.

7 Additional thoughts on six-inch or smaller

8 bowl diameter? No additional comments on six-inch or

9 smaller bowl diameter? So that in my own mind, I'm

10 going to -- go ahead, Chuck.

11 MR. POWERS: Yes. There will be an impact

12 to us, but I have already gone back. The last time I

13 brought it up, I said --

14 MR. BROOKMAN: Yes.

15 MR. POWERS: -- because we keep jumping back

16 between these forms and we vote, we don't vote. The

17 vote was given. I've got to stick with it. But that

18 means we may have to make a change to our

19 manufacturing site and go offshore or something like

20 that. And that's our decision. It actually helped me

21 a little bit.

22 MS. WILLIAMS: We haven't voted on this yet.
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1 MR. POWERS: No, no. Actually, on the six2 inch or smaller, I brought it up last time. I think

3 we did.

4 MS. WILLIAMS: No. There have only been two

5 votes so far. And that wasn't one of them.

6 MR. BROOKMAN: I don't think we have voted

7 on it, Chuck.

8 MR. HUBER: Have we voted on --

9 MS. WILLIAMS: No.

10 MR. HUBER: As we recall --

11 MS. WILLIAMS: So I did so --

12 MR. POWERS: What did we vote on? I thought

13 we -- oh, I didn't mean --

14 MR. BROOKMAN: Well, you go ahead.

15 MS. WILLIAMS: Yes. So, I mean --

16 MR. BROOKMAN: Alison?

17 MS. WILLIAMS: The ones that there was

18 general agreement for, but --

19 MR. HUBER: But no votes then --

20 MS. WILLIAMS: -- we didn't complete --

21 MR. BROOKMAN: Correct.

22 MS. WILLIAMS: -- general agreement on the -
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1 -

2 MR. BROOKMAN: Correct.

3 MS. WILLIAMS: -- speeds and the bowl

4 diameter. And, therefore, we didn't vote.

5 MR. BROOKMAN: No. Just to be clear -- and

6 you correct me if I am wrong -- having written the

7 meeting summary, read through the transcript twice,

8 like 1,400 pages worth, we had a big discussion on

9 exclusion, big discussion on parameters, but we did

10 not take an overall vote.

11 MS. WILLIAMS: We voted on some of the

12 exclusions and then documented the vote, but we did

13 not vote on any of the parameters.

14 MR. ADIN: Yes. For everyone's benefit, the

15 last two slides contain the items that were voted on

16 already. So that is the extent of the items to which

17 we actually have a --

18 MR. BROOKMAN: Yes, Al?

19 MR. HUBER: Al Huber, Patterson. You know,

20 we need to make some progress. Can we go ahead and

21 vote? Is there any reason we can't. We've got a full

22 house now.
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1 MR. BROOKMAN: We were waiting for a full

2 house.

3 MR. HUBER: Can we not vote on these things

4 now and get them out of the way, the ones that we can

5 do and get them out of the way, once and for all?

6 MR. BROOKMAN: I would be receptive to that

7 provided that everybody is comfortable moving to that

8 point. I think we are pretty much there. We discussed

9 these at considerable length.

10 MR. ADIN: Can we make sure that Tom and Meg

11 are on the line before?

12 MR. BROOKMAN: Yes. Tom, Meg, are you still

13 with us?

14 MS. WALTNER: This is Meg. I'm still here.

15 I'm sorry.

16 MR. BROOKMAN: Thanks, Meg.

17 We're not hearing from Tom, but that would

18 only be one member absent if Meg is joining us. We do

19 have a quorum, just to be clear.

20 MR. POWERS: I just have a minor question,

21 Alison, on what your intent was. We are not

22 challenging you. On page 5 you have up there, we have
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1 certain things, no problem. But you flip over to page

2 6, are we contradicting any of this? Like if I look

3 at VSO on page 5, "6-inch or smaller bowl diameter," I

4 go to page 6. On the right side, it says, "Nominal

5 diameter is 4 or 6- inch."

6 MS. WILLIAMS: This is Alison. We put the

7 EU slide here just for reference because it does have

8 some differences compared to what HI has proposed.

9 MR. POWERS: Okay.

10 MS. WILLIAMS: Obviously as the Working

11 Group if you were okay with those differences, then

12 you can ignore them.

13 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. So that is helpful.

14 Lucas?

15 MR. ADIN: I would say there was a question

16 -- and it's a good question -- about the order in

17 which we should vote on these things. And I'll propose

18 that we start as broad as possible and work our way

19 down to the more specific items.

20 So if you go to slide 22 and 23, we still

21 have the broader definitions that we are considering.

22 So we might want to start there first and then proceed
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1 with more specific things.

2 MR. BROOKMAN: Well, there were reservations

3 about going in that sequence previously because some

4 of the individuals in this room have a problem with a

5 very broad definition of pump --

6 MR. ADIN: Right.

7 MR. BROOKMAN: -- and thinking that maybe if

8 we do exclusions and parameters, that that would then

9 help us to get toward the scope. You don't think it

10 will help?

11 MR. HUBER: Not the one that -- he's

12 concerned about the definition of a pump --

13 MR. BROOKMAN: Right.

14 MR. HUBER: -- and all the exclusions. Just

15 whatever you defined as the scope and product types

16 will be affected by this definition. In other words,

17 it's either going to be a pump only or it's going to

18 be a pump and all of these other things. So I think

19 Lucas is correct. We need to decide, what are we

20 going to cover? Are we going to call the pump the

21 pump only or are we going to call it these other

22 things? And I think that we need to do.
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1 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay.

2 MR. ADIN: And to clarify again, Doug, this

3 definition does not control specifically what a

4 subject of standards --

5 MR. BROOKMAN: Right.

6 MR. ADIN: This controls a whole universe of

7 pumps.

8 MR. BROOKMAN: Right.

9 MR. ADIN: They're a covered product. And

10 then the exclusions on specific things are what we're

11 going to actually write a standard --

12 MR. BROOKMAN: That's exactly the way I

13 understand it. Yes. Yes.

14 So do you want to do that? Let's look at

15 the pump definition, page 22 in your packets. I'm

16 going to read this because in the transcript, it's not

17 clear how these issues fit with slides as they get

18 edited. "Pump is a device that moves liquids by

19 physical or mechanical action and includes a bare pump

20 and, as manufactured, mechanical equipment, driver,

21 and controls," the words in red, "liquids" and "as

22 manufactured." Those are the edits that came from --
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1 MS. WILLIAMS: It's probably not

2 comprehensive but yes, they're edits.

3 MR. BROOKMAN: And I recall us describing

4 physical and mechanical action in our last meeting.

5 And you can see the graphic, which shows the pump by -

6 - that this definition is inclusive of four

7 distinctive elements: controls, driver, mechanical

8 equipment, and bare pump.

9 Steve Rosenstock?

10 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Steve Rosenstock, EEI.

11 Again, as written, again, and the way the diagram is -

12 - and I think that is very helpful. Again, one way to

13 possibly interpret is to say if a pump does not have

14 all four components, the bare pump, mechanical

15 equipment, driver, and controls, it would not be

16 covered. That is one way to interpret it, especially

17 with that diagram. If a pump is manufactured with

18 just a bare pump, mechanical equipment, and driver

19 since it does not have the controls, is it going to be

20 covered? So, again, it's all about the wordsmithing,

21 but, again, the way, again, sometimes you read it and

22 reread it, with this definition makes it appear that
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1 it has to have all four components or it's not a pump.

2 MR. BROOKMAN: Lucas?

3 MR. ADIN: Well, it's based upon how the

4 pump is ultimately manufactured by the pump

5 manufacturer.

6 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Right.

7 MR. ADIN: So it's manufactured just as the

8 bare pump portion without a motor. It's still covered

9 because that is as manufactured, it's the bare pump.

10 So it can include any of those, starting with the bare

11 pump up to controls, --

12 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Right.

13 MR. ADIN: -- as manufactured, and still be

14 comfortable.

15 MR. POWERS: I think page 23 defines it.

16

17 MS. WILLIAMS: This is Alison. I mean, we

18 had made edits last time. This is the as19 manufactured part so that it always includes a bare

20 pump. And as-manufactured could include these other

21 items, too.

22 And this diagram is not regulatory. It's
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1 just here for, you know --

2 MR. BROOKMAN: It's illustrative.

3 MS. WILLIAMS: Yes.

4 MR. POWERS: This is Chuck. But, Alison, if

5 you go to the next page, I think what we tried to do

6 is say their pump is blah blah blah action excluding

7 the mechanical equipment. Then it goes on to say

8 mechanical equipment is -- I mean, it is kind of

9 saying it can be a bare pump, it can be all of the

10 above.

11 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Right. You know, sometimes

12 the way you make the definition, especially when DOE

13 makes a definition for regulatory purposes, it makes a

14 big difference in terms of what you are covering.

15 And, again, I will say, for example, you know, if you

16 -- there are other things where, you know, there might

17 be cause for controls but they're not acquired in the

18 standard. Like, you know, there might be -- like for

19 boilers, they have to have automatic temperature

20 resets, but there is no specific requirement for those

21 resets in the efficiency standard for residential

22 boilers. I'm just saying that that does -- oh, yes.
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1 You can also include, yes -- yes, exactly.

2 You can do that, too. If you go as manufactured, you

3 add the words "as manufactured and may also include

4 mechanical equipment, driver, and controls." I think

5 you are covered.

6 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay.

7 MR. HUBER: "Or if included"?

8 MR. ROSENSTOCK: "Or if included," exactly.

9 Yes. "Mechanical equipment, driver, or controls."

10 MR. ADIN: But included by whom?

11 MR. HUBER: The manufacturer.

12 MR. ROSENSTOCK: By the manufacturer.

13 MR. ADIN: So I think we will just have to

14 be clear.

15 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Okay. That's fine.

16 MR. HUBER: I think the intent -- Al Huber,

17 Patterson. The intent is that we know what the intent

18 is. The intent is it's a bare pump. We sell it. It's

19 covered. If it's a bare pump and a driver, it's

20 covered.

21 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Right.

22 MR. HUBER: If it's a bare pump, driver, and
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1 controls, it's covered.

2 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Right.

3 MR. HUBER: Now, that's the intent.

4 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Right.

5 MR. HUBER: So if we can all agree to that,

6 then how you wordsmith it, DOE needs to go wordsmith

7 it and come back, I guess, but I don't know that we

8 need to argue about it.

9 MR. ADIN: Yes.

10 MR. BROOKMAN: Lucas?

11 MR. ADIN: That's a good point, Al. And I

12 was going to mention this, actually, before you

13 brought that up. I think we can just vote on intent -

14 -

15 MR. HUBER: Yes. That's --

16 MR. ADIN: -- as long as we all agree on

17 what it's supposed to say, you know, and we have a

18 general idea of what a good definition would be and to

19 the extent DOE has to tweak it a little bit to make it

20 work. We are tweaking in the interest of getting what

21 this group has agreed to do.

22 MR. HUBER: Exactly. There you go.
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1 MR. BROOKMAN: And I would add that the

2 additional definitions on page 23 are also useful as

3 showing the inclusive nature of this definition.

4 MR. ADIN: Yes.

5 MR. HUBER: Yes.

6 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Are we ready to take a

7 vote on this? Joanna?

8 MS. MAUER: I would like to request that we

9 just have a little -- we would like to caucus with

10 some of our folks that are on the phones.

11 MR. BROOKMAN: Yes.

12 MS. MAUER: So if we can just put it off for

13 a little bit?

14 MR. BROOKMAN: We just sent Tom Eckman an

15 email. Tom, have you been able to join us for this

16 conversation? Sarah just sent Tom an email.

17 MR. ECKMAN: Yes. I'm on.

18 MR. HUBER: He's on.

19 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Then yes. Let's take

20 a ten-minute break, shall we?

21 MS. MAUER: Okay.

22 MR. BROOKMAN: Yes. That will give you a
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1 chance to think about this. When we return -- that

2 would be -- let's just say we'll return at noon. Do

3 we need to leave the room so you can talk with Tom or

4 can you do that via the phone or what?

5 MR. HUBER: Doug, can I make a suggestion?

6 Since it's so close to noon, you can break for lunch.

7 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. That's a good idea.

8 MR. HUBER: Then we'll beat the crowd.

9 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. So a good suggestion

10 from a member, let's break for lunch now. It's 11:47.

11 MR. BARBOUR: We're going to lunch now?

12 MR. BROOKMAN: Let's go to lunch, a good

13 idea, which means we'll return at 1:00 o'clock.

14 MR. HUBER: 1:00 o'clock.

15 (Off the record.)

16 (On the record.)

17 MR. BROOKMAN: Where we left off was in a

18 discussion about a possible definition for a pump.

19 And at that point, members of the energy efficiency

20 caucus requested time to think this over and talk

21 about it. Do you wish to comment now? Do you wish

22 for us to proceed to a vote? What would be your
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1 preference? Gary?

2 MR. FERNSTROM: So this is Gary. I'm not

3 sure I'm in alignment with the other energy efficiency

4 advocates. But I continue to be worried about this

5 preemption issue with California. And the rationale

6 at the moment I believe is the California regulation

7 really regulates the motors, not the pumps. So if DOE

8 adopts a broad definition of pumps, it's not a problem

9 because the California regulation for pool pumps

10 really hinges on the motor for the pool pump.

11 The problem is that the two-speed, multi12 speed, variable-speed regulation applies to

13 residential in-ground filtration applications. So are

14 we going to be able to identify a motor that is not

15 preempted by DOE such that we can align it with

16 residential in-ground filtration applications and

17 require that two-speed, multi-speed, variable- speed

18 feature? I don't know that that can necessarily be

19 done. So it's not at all clear to me that DOE

20 adopting a broad definition of pumps would not preempt

21 California on account of the fact that the California

22 regulation really addresses the motors.
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1 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay.

2 MR. FERNSTROM: I don't know that addressing

3 the motors alone would do what California is currently

4 doing and wants to do.

5 MR. BROOKMAN: So, then, I was wondering.

6 Tom Eckman and Meg Waltner, are you on the phone?

7 MS. MAUER: Meg is, not Tom.

8 MS. WALTNER: I'm here.

9 MR. BROOKMAN: Thank you, Meg. Not Tom?

10 MS. WALTNER: Can you hear me?

11 MR. BROOKMAN: Yes, I can hear you, Meg.

12 MS. WALTNER: Okay. Tom is not on the

13 phone. I believe he is on the plane to D.C. now, but

14 he gave me his proxy on this issue.

15 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. And when he gave you

16 his proxy, how did he describe it to you? He

17 authorized you to vote on his behalf about this broad

18 definition of pump?

19 MS. WALTNER: Yes.

20 MR. BROOKMAN: He did? Okay. Should we do

21 this, then? Should we have a vote?

22 MR. ROSENSTOCK: What are we voting on now?
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1 MR. BROOKMAN: I'm about to restate and

2 noting that there are no visible objections at this

3 point. So what we're about to vote on -- visible

4 objections?

5 MR. FERNSTROM: If I could point out one

6 more thing? This is Gary. I just had the opportunity

7 to view DOE's opinion about preemption this morning

8 because, for some reason, it never showed up in my

9 email box. So I don't think that gives us adequate

10 time to really consider it.

11 MR. BROOKMAN: Yes. And I would note and,

12 unfortunately, we started off this morning with a

13 discussion on Betsy Kohl's memo where she addressed

14 the issue of preemption and there wasn't much

15 discussion. And it was rather simply that that is

16 what DOE has come to understand. So I'm not sure if

17 you were here. There wasn't any further illumination,

18 to be frank.

19 Steve Rosenstock.

20 MR. ROSENSTOCK: I'll just say this to

21 follow up on Gary. Maybe again just keep the

22 discussion open in terms of slide 4. Maybe add that
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1 to the exclusion list as a possibility for people's

2 consideration, add another line, add another row as a

3 possible exclusion. And, you know, if we're going to

4 define pumps by what they are not, we might also need

5 a way to --

6 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Well, let's just make

7 a note about that.

8 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Yes.

9 MR. BROOKMAN: But, then, let's proceed.

10 MR. ROSENSTOCK: That's enough.

11 MR. BROOKMAN: We'll think about how that

12 might get applied, Steve.

13 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Yes.

14 MR. BROOKMAN: But for right now, here is

15 what I am proposing. I am proposing that the

16 Working Group have a vote on this possible

17 definition: "device that moves liquids by physical or

18 mechanical action and includes a bare pump and, as

19 manufactured or, if included, mechanical equipment,

20 driver, and controls," noting that we're clear in our

21 discussion about that that is the intent, that the

22 actual words may be smithed slightly.
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1 Lucas first?

2 MR. ADIN: I just have a question. And this

3 is probably more for manufacturers. We put in there a

4 device that moves liquids. Does that include or

5 exclude solids-handling pumps?

6 MR. HUBER: Yes, it would. It would.

7 MS. MAUER: Sorry. I didn't hear that

8 answer.

9 MR. ADIN: The question was whether it would

10 include solids-handling pumps.

11 MS. MAUER: And the answer was?

12 MR. ADIN: It would.

13 MS. MAUER: It would?

14 MR. ADIN: Yes.

15 MR. BROOKMAN: Al said, "Yes, it would."

16 MR. HUBER: Yes.

17 MS. MAUER: Okay.

18 MR. BROOKMAN: Joanna?

19 MS. MAUER: This is Joanna. It just seems

20 like that is relevant to our conversation this morning

21 about --

22 MR. ADIN: Yes.
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1 MR. HUBER: Yes. Well, we already excluded

2 them.

3 MR. ADIN: Right.

4 MR. HUBER: So what's the problem?

5 MR. ADIN: Well, this is the broader --

6 MR. HUBER: This is a broader scope.

7 MR. ADIN: This includes everything, not

8 just what we're saying here in this. So it's not

9 necessarily --

10 MR. HUBER: Well, if it has a solid in it,

11 it's not liquid. I mean, it is more than Liquid. In

12 other words, it --

13 MR. ADIN: Right.

14 MR. HUBER: -- is suspended in liquid, but

15 there are solids in it.

16 MS. WILLIAMS: This is Alison. So this used

17 to say, "fluids," and we were trying to change it to

18 exclude air, essentially. So if there is a better --

19 MR. HUBER: Well, you could say, "liquids,"

20 "to move liquids not containing solids" if you wanted

21 to, I suppose.

22 MS. KOHL: This is Betsy Kohl.
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1 MR. ADIN: But I don't think we want --

2 MS. KOHL: Yes.

3 MR. ADIN: -- to make it the opposite. We

4 don't necessarily --

5 MR. HUBER: You don't want to do that?

6 MR. ADIN: No.

7 MS. KOHL: We want a definition that's

8 covered the universe of --

9 MR. ADIN: The broad universe of pumps.

10 MR. HUBER: Okay.

11 MR. POWERS: You don't want to use the EU.

12 You just claim broader. You don't want to do that

13 because you want it broader.

14 MR. ADIN: That's right.

15 MR. FERNSTROM: So this is Gary again. So,

16 just to be clear, we can exclude pumps that might be

17 pumping solids, but we can't exclude swimming pool

18 pumps.

19 MS. KOHL: That's why we're thinking that

20 this might be an issue. Betsy Kohl, DOE GC.

21 MR. FERNSTROM: Oh, okay.

22 MR. CASE: So what if we had -- sorry. This
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1 is Greg Case with HI.

2 MR. BROOKMAN: Yes?

3 MR. CASE: What if we had "moves liquids"?

4 I just had it. "Liquids and/or with entrained gases

5 and/or solids."

6 MR. BROOKMAN: "Liquids and/or entrained" --

7 MR. CASE: No. We want this to include

8 everything.

9 MR. BROOKMAN: Yes.

10 MR. CASE: So we want it to have entrained

11 solids and entrained gases

12 MR. HUBER: Why don't you just say

13 "entrained matter" or something? That covers it all,

14 doesn't it?

15 MR. CASE: You have got solids, liquids, and

16 gases; right? So that would cover all.

17 MS. WILLIAMS: Entrained matter?

18 MALE SPEAKER: All matter.

19 MR. HUBER: Or for all matter. It doesn't

20 matter to me.

21 MR. BROOKMAN: That's what I was thinking.

22 We're talking matter here; right? I guess it's more
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1 specific to say "entrained solids, gases, and

2 liquids."

3 MR. ADIN: Well, we still need to -- so that

4 the point that Alison raised about distinguishing

5 between fluids generally and liquids is just to make

6 sure there is no unintentional overlap between this

7 definition and that of compressors.

8 MR. HUBER: No, no overlap with compressors.

9 MR. CASE: Well, if there was -- you had

10 liquids, you don't ever want to put a liquid into a

11 compressor --

12 MR. HUBER: No, you don't.

13 MR. CASE: -- at the appreciable volume.

14 MR. ADIN: Right. So as long as it's not

15 just gas, it's gas entrained in a liquid --

16 MR. CASE: Yes, right.

17 MR. ADIN: -- I don't see a problem.

18 MR. CASE: I mean, we could say up to a

19 percent of entrained and stuff like that, but that

20 gets into the weeds again.

21 MR. ADIN: It doesn't seem like we need to

22 be that specific.
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1 MR. POWERS: This is Chuck. Question. In

2 the world of fluids that we pump, there is totally

3 dissolved solids. There is free solids and rocks.

4 Totally dissolved, if you want to call it that, you

5 could take a salt. That's a totally dissolved solid.

6 And the last one is gas, entrained gas, --

7 MR. ADIN: Right.

8 MR. POWERS: -- entrained gas. So you have

9 entrained gases. And you have and/or entrained

10 solids. I think, you know, you may want to say, "free

11 solids" and then you want to say "totally dissolved

12 solids." That way you cover all three types of

13 properties that you could have in fluid if you're

14 trying to cover it.

15 MR. HUBER: I mean, if that's what you're

16 trying to do.

17 MR. POWERS: If that's what you're trying to

18 do, you've got to technically cover so you don't get

19 yourself -- so you're basically saying "liquids,"

20 "that moves liquids," and then you may want to say,

21 "which would include entrained gases" --

22 MR. HUBER: "May include."
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1 MR. POWERS: -- "which may include" --

2 sorry, Alison -- "which may include entrained gases,

3 free solids," -- instead of saying, "entrained

4 solids," say, "free solids" -- "and totally dissolved

5 solids."

6 MR. HUBER: Yes. That will do it.

7 MR. POWERS: Then those are the three

8 properties you have in fluids. Right, Charlie?

9 MR. CAPPELLINO: Yes.

10 MR. POWERS: I'm looking from a technical --

11 I'm just trying to say. Now, if you look at the EU,

12 they give properties of those and limits, but now

13 we're somewhat --

14 MR. BROOKMAN: So it's consistent with the

15 EU definition?

16 MR. POWERS: But EU actually gives the

17 amounts of those in their definition of clean water.

18 MR. HUBER: Clean water.

19 MR. POWERS: Now they take that and they go

20 to clean water as you can't have much more than this,

21 this, and this.

22 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Charlie, did you want
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1 in here?

2 MR. CAPPELLINO: It got covered it when we

3 made that change here.

4 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay.

5 MS. WILLIAMS: Yes. So, again, this is the

6 broader pump. It doesn't have anything to do with

7 what we're going to cover in this rulemaking.

8 MR. POWERS: Yes.

9 MS. WILLIAMS: So the difference with the EU

10 is kind of apples and oranges.

11 MR. POWERS: To a certain degree, that's

12 right.

13 MR. BROOKMAN: Steve Rosenstock?

14 MR. ROSENSTOCK: My editorial. After

15 "manufactured," "and, if included."

16 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. That's just an edit, a

17 small edit. Okay.

18 So are we ready to -- everybody has had a

19 chance to review the edited version that Alison has

20 provided. Doug Potts?

21 MR. POTTS: Doug Potts. Just another

22 editorial. I think we have some extra words there.
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1 After "bare pump," just say, "bare pump as

2 manufactured and, if included."

3 MS. WILLIAMS: So this is Alison. I think

4 the point of "as manufactured" previously was to say

5 that if whoever is defined as a manufacturer had the

6 pump including these things, it would be as

7 manufactured with those things. So it used to say "as

8 included" or something like that, I think. And so the

9 switch to "and manufactured" was designed to

10 accommodate how the pump is sold --

11 MR. POTTS: Right.

12 MS. WILLIAMS: -- by whoever is defined to

13 be the manufacturer.

14 MR. BROOKMAN: Go ahead, Doug.

15 MR. POTTS: Doug Potts. What if "as

16 manufactured" were moved to the end of the sentence?

17 MS. WILLIAMS: So I think the reason it was

18 moved to the middle was because people wanted it to

19 always include a bare pump. And then if it includes

20 the other things when it's manufactured, they would be

21 included, too, because if you move it to the end, then

22 it's unclear if and when a bare pump alone --
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1 MR. BROOKMAN: That was the logic.

2 MS. WILLIAMS: -- would be covered.

3 MR. BROOKMAN: That's where we were.

4 Al?

5 MR. HUBER: This is the question for DOE.

6 In the regulation, will it define who a manufacturer

7 is?

8 MR. ADIN: So, there's actually a definition

9 for manufacturer.

10 MR. HANDZEL: That's the last --

11 MR. ADIN: It's in the statute.

12 MR. HANDZEL: Yes.

13 MR. ADIN: So it's already --

14 MR. HUBER: It's already in the statute?

15 MR. ADIN: Yes.

16 MR. HUBER: Okay.

17 MR. ADIN: Congress has already defined it.

18 MR. HUBER: All right. Good. Fine. I'm

19 fine with that.

20 MR. BROOKMAN: Yes. Okay. And that was

21 also in your -- that was in the transcript, I think.

22 It's up there on the screen, "Pump is a
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1 device that moves liquids (which may include entrained

2 gases, free solids, and totally dissolved solids) by

3 physical or mechanical action and includes a bare

4 pump, as manufactured, and, if included, mechanical

5 equipment, driver, and controls."

6 MS. KOHL: Betsy Kohl, DOE GC. That's too

7 much of a mouthful, I think.

8 MR. ADIN: Right. You either have to take

9 out "as manufactured" or "and if included."

10 MS. WILLIAMS: If included as manufactured?

11 MR. BROOKMAN: Gary?

12 MR. FERNSTROM: This is Gary. If included

13 by the manufacturer.

14 MS. WILLIAMS: You think it should just be -

15 -

16 MS. KOHL: Well, I mean, if included by the

17 manufacturer means as manufactured.

18 MS. WILLIAMS: Right.

19 MS. KOHL: Right?

20 MR. HUBER: Why don't you just say, "if

21 included by the manufacturer," "bare pumps" and this,

22 this, and this, "if included by the manufacturer"?
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1 Does that make it any clearer?

2 MR. ADIN: I think it's equally clear both

3 ways personally.

4 MR. HUBER: I don't have any problem either

5 way either, but I'm just trying to help out here.

6 MR. BROOKMAN: Let's go with what's up here

7 because I thought the distinction was relevant

8 previously that "bare pump" can stand alone. That was

9 the logic behind "as manufactured." Right? So

10 "includes a bare pump as manufactured" and --

11 MS. WIDDER: What about "includes a bare

12 pump and may also include mechanical equipment,

13 driver, and controls if provided by the manufacturer"

14 or -- I don't know. It's a lot of words. But the

15 "may also include," I feel like that's what we're

16 getting strung up about, "includes a bare pump and" --

17 MR. BROOKMAN: "May also include."

18 MR. ROSENSTOCK: "May also include."

19 MS. WIDDER: "May also include"?

20 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Yes. That works.

21 MR. ADIN: Or that "if included by the

22 manufacturer."
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1 MR. ROSENSTOCK: "As manufactured."

2 MR. STARR: Let's leave the verb part of the

3 "manufactured" in there as a verb. Otherwise

4 "manufacturer," they don't -- no one really thinks of

5 a distributor as a manufacturer. If they understand

6 that you manufacture something, you maybe are not a

7 manufacturer. I think it will help out your

8 enforcement side.

9 MS. WILLIAMS: I mean, that was the reason

10 we put "as manufactured" in there was because of the

11 statutory flexibility with that.

12 MR. BROOKMAN: And the definition of

13 manufacturer --

14 MR. HUBER: Which is included --

15 MR. BROOKMAN: -- Betsy described.

16 MR. HUBER: Yes.

17 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. But let's add "bare

18 pump, as manufactured." And then we need something

19 after "as manufactured."

20 MS. WILLIAMS: "Included bare pump and, as

21 manufactured, mechanical equipment, driver."

22 MR. BROOKMAN: Because there's a comma and
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1 the "and" there. Okay. Okay? Are we ready to do --

2 MR. ROSENSTOCK: That's where we were

3 originally.

4 MS. WILLIAMS: Yes.

5 MR. ROSENSTOCK: And the issue still is as

6 it reads right now, with that diagram, again, it says,

7 you know, the way I interpret it is it has to have

8 everything or it's not covered. You can erase the

9 diagram all you want. That's not --

10 MS. WILLIAMS: The diagram is just -- I

11 mean, you shouldn't -- the diagram is just there for

12 illustration.

13 MS. WIDDER: But, actually, I think I agree

14 with Steve's point. This is Sarah. It says,

15 "includes a bare pump." We lost the "if" part or the

16 "may" about the mechanical equipment, driver, and

17 controls.

18 MR. ADIN: So you could change that to say

19 "if included by the manufacturer."

20 MS. KOHL: I like that. That's great.

21 MR. HUBER: Yes. That's what I --

22 MR. ADIN: Does that address your concern?
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1 MR. HUBER: "If included by the

2 manufacturer."

3 MR. ROSENSTOCK: That works. That's saying

4 the same thing, yes.

5 MR. POWERS: "If included by the

6 manufacturer, the mechanical equipment, driver."

7 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Yes.

8 MR. POWERS: Put the word "the" in.

9 MR. HUBER: Yes.

10 MR. POWERS: Now, I have a question. This is

11 Chuck. So personally I do like the picture. Okay?

12 And the reason is because you used the word "pump" in

13 the beginning. And then in the paragraph, you put

14 "bare pump." So the picture, then when you pull up

15 the picture, you see "Okay. There is a bare pump.

16 And there are the other pieces." Right?

17 Then when you flip over to the next page, we

18 give a more detailed definition of this. And it may be

19 more cognizant.

20 MR. HUBER: I agree with what he's saying.

21 If you have this -- I don't know if you can put

22 diagrams in the regulation.
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1 MALE SPEAKER: For a definition.

2 MR. HUBER: Well, it's more like an example

3 than a definition. You've got the definition. This

4 shows you what the definition is talking about.

5 MR. POWERS: Instead of going to two pages -

6 -

7 MR. HUBER: Like you would illuminate it for

8 something.

9 MR. POWERS: Instead of going to two pages,

10 this chart doesn't -- we're not going to vote on

11 notes. Either clean up above or get rid of the notes.

12 Right? Couldn't we take the next page stuff and

13 squeeze it in at the bottom here and you're done?

14 MR. ADIN: So what we can -- well, really

15 what we --

16 MR. BROOKMAN: Lucas Adin?

17 MR. ADIN: Sorry. Thanks, Doug. What we

18 will do is, at a minimum, when we write the proposed

19 rule, there is this long preamble section. It

20 explains all this stuff. You have to explain

21 everything eventually. So it will be very clearly

22 explained there. We can use this diagram. That's
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1 fine. I just don't know if we can actually put it in

2 the CFR itself, but, at a minimum, it will be

3 explained there for the --

4 MR. HUBER: It would be good.

5 MR. BROOKMAN: So I move the question here.

6 Are we ready to do this? I'm going to ask that

7 everybody who agrees with this pump definition and

8 wishes to vote for it raise your hands now. All those

9 in favor raise your hands.

10 (Show of hands.)

11 MR. BROOKMAN: And I see 13 pluses. And

12 then, Meg, how about you and Tom?

13 MS. WALTNER: Yes.

14 MR. BROOKMAN: Yes? Both you and Tom vote

15 yes?

16 MS. WALTNER: Yes.

17 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. So we have 15. And do

18 we have objections?

19 (Show of hand.)

20 MR. BROOKMAN: One objection. And do we

21 have any abstentions?

22 (No response.)
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1 MR. BROOKMAN: I think that's everyone.

2 Okay. So we have achieved a consensus by our rules.

3 And let me note also that we definitely have a quorum

4 here. So this definition of pumps as edited is

5 acceptable to the Working Group. Congratulations.

6 (Applause.)

7 MS. WILLIAMS: We had previously said we

8 were voting on the intent. Should I remove the intent

9 because you just said, "as edited"?

10 MR. BROOKMAN: I think we should make clear

11 that it's --

12 MR. ADIN: Subject to potential --

13 MR. BROOKMAN: Interpretation by the --

14 MR. ADIN: -- edits as necessary to

15 accomplish the same intent.

16 MR. BROOKMAN: I guess, Betsy, I'm asking

17 you this one. Should we do these definitions as well?

18 MS. KOHL: Yes. But, actually, I think if

19 we wanted to make sure --

20 MR. ADIN: Right. So there's just a

21 procedural point. And I'm sorry for neglecting to

22 bring this up at the beginning of the meeting, but we
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1 learned that the member, the original member, of the

2 Working Group, who left is not going to be replaced.

3 MR. CASE: Gary Witt?

4 MR. HUBER: Gary Witt.

5 MR. ADIN: Gary Witt; right. So, as of now,

6 we're officially 16 and not 17. And I wanted to make

7 sure that there were no concerns about the ground

8 rules or how those numbers were affected. I mean, for

9 DOE's purposes, we're not concerned about it, but I

10 just wanted to make sure everyone is still okay with

11 the ground rules as adopted based on the Working Group

12 officially being one fewer member than initially.

13 MR. BROOKMAN: Yes?

14 MR. HUBER: Yes. The industry is fine with

15 that.

16 MR. ADIN: Okay.

17 MR. BROOKMAN: Al says the industry is fine

18 with it. Chuck, question?

19 MR. POWERS: Will there be a record because

20 a month from now I will forget, three months from now,

21 and who knows what is going to happen next year, what

22 we voted on is a picture right there? In other words,
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1 here is what I'm worried about. Somebody words it --

2 MR. BROOKMAN: Right.

3 MR. POWERS: Somebody says, "Oh, they agreed

4 on this two-page tabulation of somebody's words." No.

5 We voted on that. So afterwards we can look at what

6 gets written up, which I think we all mean, we voted

7 on that picture right there, nothing more.

8 MS. WILLIAMS: Yes. So this is Alison.

9 Currently I am keeping the slides that we voted on at

10 the end of the presentation --

11 MR. POWERS: Perfect.

12 MS. WILLIAMS: -- so we can carry those

13 through and --

14 MR. POWERS: If I have to report out to

15 somebody to say, "What did you vote on?" this is the

16 slide I voted on. And there is no --

17 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. We can do that. And

18 the meeting summary will reflect that. Okay?

19 MR. POWERS: Okay. You know what I'm

20 saying? Later on --

21 MR. BROOKMAN: I do. No. I --

22 MR. POWERS: -- these changes, the intent,
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1 the wordsmithing, I just want to make sure.

2 MR. BROOKMAN: That will be a detailed entry

3 in both the slides and my meeting summary.

4 MR. POWERS: Yes.

5 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. So, then, now scanning

6 the room here, to me losing a member is unfortunate

7 but doesn't seem to have a lot of bearing on the

8 ground rules, which we discussed laboriously for over

9 a day. So is everybody comfortable with keeping the

10 ground rules as they are, the decision-making rules

11 remaining the same, the quorum-setting rules being the

12 same, the delegation rules all being the same? It's

13 just one person different. Yes? We're all okay with

14 that?

15 (Show of hands.)

16 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. So it's unanimous?

17 Yes? You probably don't have Tom's proxy on this.

18 Maybe you do.

19 MS. WALTNER: No, I don't have his proxy on

20 this. It's that one issue. But I am --

21 MR. BROOKMAN: That's okay with you? So

22 we'll list Tom as being an abstention. And we'll have
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1 one abstention and 15 yeses on maintaining the ground

2 rules as they are, noting that one member is no longer

3 a part of the Working Group. Okay? Okay.

4 Now, these definitions, we should probably -

5 - because I was reading these. I think we've worked.

6 Most of these maybe we need to work on a little more

7 based on the foregoing discussion. So I think it's

8 useful to adopt these definitions as well.

9 What about bare pump as listed? Bare pump

10 is a device that moves liquids by physical or

11 mechanical action excluding mechanical equipment,

12 driver, and controls. Chuck?

13 MR. POWERS: I think you should take the

14 words you have on the previous, use them up to the

15 point -- sorry. Alison, would you go to the previous

16 slide?

17 MS. WILLIAMS: Yes.

18 MR. POWERS: I would say we use that

19 definition. Go back. Sorry.

20 MS. WILLIAMS: I thought you wanted this.

21 No?

22 MR. POWERS: If you just copy and paste?
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1 Take where it says, "Bare shaft pump." Say, "Bare

2 pump."

3 MS. WILLIAMS: Yes.

4 MR. POWERS: "A device that moves liquids,

5 which may include" blah blah blah, "action excluding."

6 Yes.

7 MR. ADIN: This is Lucas. If the language

8 is otherwise identical there, I mean, you could just

9 say a bare pump is a pump that excludes or a pump

10 excluding. Do you know what I mean?

11 MR. POWERS: Yes, yes, yes.

12 MR. BROOKMAN: Yes.

13 MR. HUBER: That's the language. You have

14 already defined bare pump or pump.

15 MR. POWERS: Yes, yes.

16 MR. HUBER: Right.

17 MR. POWERS: That's true. That's true.

18 MR. ADIN: Effectively --

19 MR. CASE: It depends what order they're

20 listed in, though.

21 MR. POWERS: No.

22 MR. CASE: Right?
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1 MR. HUBER: It will list that.

2 MR. ADIN: It will be the same.

3 MR. CASE: Okay. Okay.

4 MR. POWERS: Yes.

5 MR. BROOKMAN: So that makes sense to me. A

6 bare pump is "a pump excluding mechanical equipment,

7 driver, and controls."

8 MR. HUBER: That is good enough.

9 MR. BROOKMAN: Yes? Okay.

10 MR. HUBER: That is good enough.

11 MR. BROOKMAN: So is everybody comfortable

12 with that one? Does anyone object to that as the

13 definition for bare pump? No one objects?

14 MR. FERNSTROM: And you're putting pump in

15 parentheses? What's the indication of that?

16 MS. WILLIAMS: No. That refers to this.

17 MR. FERNSTROM: Okay. Perfect. Gotcha.

18 Thank you.

19 MS. WILLIAMS: Great.

20 MR. BROOKMAN: So no one objects. And, Meg,

21 where is your vote on that one?

22 MS. WILLIAMS: Are we voting on all of these
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1 individually?

2 MR. BROOKMAN: We could do them as a

3 package, but I think we are better off doing them

4 individually.

5 MR. POWERS: I think it'll be better

6 combined. You're done.

7 MR. HUBER: Yes. You might as well do them

8 combined.

9 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. We'll do it combined.

10 We'll wait on the vote.

11 What about mechanical equipment?

12 MR. HUBER: Fine.

13 MR. BROOKMAN: We discussed this at length

14 previously. Mechanical equipment is "any component

15 that transfers energy from the driver to the bare

16 pump." I see a few heads nodding up and down. We're

17 comfortable with that? Yes. Okay. We're moving on.

18 Driver. Driver is "the machine providing

19 mechanical input to drive the bare pump through the

20 mechanical equipment and may include an electric

21 motor, natural gas or diesel engine, or steam-driven

22 turbine," or observing fuel neutrality here. Charlie?
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1 MR. CAPPELLINO: Charlie Cappellino, ITT.

2 The point here that I quite didn't understand, it

3 says, "natural gas, or diesel engine," which would

4 seem to exclude gasoline- driven engines. So I didn't

5 know if maybe internal combustion engine, which would

6 include natural gas, diesel, or gasoline-powered,

7 might be an improvement.

8 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. I see. Yes. Internal

9 combustion will do it.

10 MR. ROSENSTOCK: And turbine, I guess it

11 could be a gas turbine as well as a steam turbine.

12 MS. WILLIAMS: Just say turbine?

13 MR. POWERS: Well, to be fair to, like, what

14 Charlie said, you might want to say, "gas/diesel."

15 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Yes, "gas/steam" or

16 "gas/diesel."

17 MR. POWERS: "Gas/diesel."

18 MR. BROOKMAN: And then your gas would be

19 inclusive.

20 MR. POWERS: And you probably don't need to

21 use the word "driven." Just say, "gas/steam turbine."

22 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Yes. For controls or are
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1 we still on driver? I'm sorry.

2 MR. BROOKMAN: Hang on just a second. Let

3 everybody get a chance to read this.

4 MR. POWERS: Doug, if I could ask a question

5 on drivers?

6 MR. BROOKMAN: Please, Chuck?

7 MR. POWERS: There are drivers that are

8 directly connected to the pump. So when we have the

9 word "drivers, machine input to drive a bare pump

10 through mechanical equipment," it may or may not go

11 through mechanical equipment.

12 MR. HUBER: Yes. It may not.

13 MR. POWERS: It could be --

14 MS. WILLIAMS: Any or --

15 MR. POWERS: I'm okay with it as it is, but

16 there could -- you know, somebody could say, "Well, I

17 don't have to apply because mine is directly

18 connected."

19 MR. HANDZEL: Yes. A close-coupled pump

20 would.

21 MR. HUBER: Yes.

22 MR. POWERS: I mean, it's a minor item, but
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1 there may not be mechanical equipment is my point.

2 MR. ADIN: So you could eliminate the

3 "through mechanical equipment," and it would mean the

4 same thing; right?

5 MR. POWERS: Yes.

6 MS. WILLIAMS: Someone specifically wanted

7 that before.

8 MR. BROOKMAN: You don't think we need to do

9 the "mechanical equipment"?

10 MR. HUBER: I don't think you do.

11 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Or as another alternative -

12 -

13 MR. HUBER: It's not part of the driver.

14 What do you care? It's just talking about its action.

15 MR. ROSENSTOCK: I was going to provide you

16 another alternative.

17 MR. BROOKMAN: Yes?

18 MR. ROSENSTOCK: "Directly or through the

19 mechanical equipment."

20 MR. BROOKMAN: Directly or through? That's

21 the thrust of Chuck's point; right, directly?

22 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Yes.
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1 MR. POWERS: Or "With or without mechanical

2 equipment."

3 MR. HANDZEL: No. I like --

4 MR. HUBER: "Directly or through" is fine.

5 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Driver is "the machine

6 providing mechanical input to drive the bare pump

7 directly or through the mechanical equipment and may

8 include an electric motor, internal combustion engine,

9 or gas/steam turbine." That's pretty inclusive; right,

10 on the uses? Yes? I see a lot of heads nodding up and

11 down. Okay.

12 Then we're moving on to controls. Doug?

13 MR. POTTS: Yes?

14 MR. BROOKMAN: Go ahead. Doug Potts?

15 MR. ROSENSTOCK: My only thought is in terms

16 of generic definition, do you need the second

17 sentence? The first sentence covers everything.

18 MS. WILLIAMS: This?

19 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Yes. I mean, it's just an

20 example, but it's any device that can control a

21 driver. So it can be anything.

22 MS. WILLIAMS: You wanted the second half of
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1 the definition in the driver.

2 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Whoa, whoa, whoa. What?

3 MS. WILLIAMS: I said, "You wanted the

4 second half of the definition in the driver."

5 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Well, okay.

6 MS. WILLIAMS: I'm just --

7 MR. ROSENSTOCK: I know. I know. I'm

8 sorry.

9 (Simultaneous conversation.)

10 MR. POWERS: So one month took away that

11 sentence. Maybe we all --

12 MR. ROSENSTOCK: I like to throw people off.

13 MR. BROOKMAN: Well, let's just see if we

14 need the second half. Do we need it? Do we want it?

15 That's fine.

16 MR. ROSENSTOCK: If we need it, that's fine.

17 MR. BROOKMAN: Controls? This means "any

18 device that could be used to control the driver."

19 MR. POTTS: This is Doug Potts. I have a

20 question or a comment.

21 MR. BROOKMAN: Doug Potts, yes?

22 MR. POTTS: I am wondering -- and maybe the
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1 pump manufacturers can weigh in on this -- if as a

2 definition of controls, it's too broad. And I'm

3 wondering because you say anything controls the

4 driver. You could interpret that as an on/off switch

5 --

6 MR. HUBER: Exactly.

7 MR. POTTS: -- pressure transmitters.

8 MR. CASE: Exactly the intent.

9 MR. POTTS: And that's your intent?

10 MR. HUBER: Yes.

11 MR. POTTS: So you don't feel that would

12 become unwieldy at all from a

13 manufacturing/manufacturers' perspective?

14 MR. HUBER: No.

15 MR. POTTS: And for me as a buyer of pumps

16 and systems, I'm typically not buying on and off

17 switches with the pump. That's sort of an electrical

18 contractor thing. So I don't think it would hurt me

19 either, but I just wanted to understand that.

20 MR. BROOKMAN: Lucas?

21 MR. ADIN: Just a point of clarification as

22 far as how this would actually apply in the scope of
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1 regulation. I mean, the controls being part of the

2 pump is only if it's actually manufactured by the

3 manufacturer that way. If it's included by the

4 manufacturer, then yes. It's a part of the -- and,

5 you know, going even further as far as the standard is

6 concerned, we would have to consider as part of the

7 standard analysis how we considered the controls as

8 part of the overall measurement of the pump's energy

9 use. So that's even a step farther.

10 So just saying that controls are defined and

11 they are a part of the pump doesn't necessarily mean

12 that you are changing how those pumps are going to be

13 configured because we haven't gone that far yet.

14 MR. BROOKMAN: Louis, you're next.

15 MR. STARR: Just kind of the first part of

16 this is "any device that can be used to control the

17 driver." It seems like there inherently needs to be

18 something -- even if it is on/off, it needs to be

19 something as a feedback loop to otherwise just have

20 any. A switch would do that. And you just leave it

21 on all the time. So I don't know. It seems like there

22 needs -- I mean, the second part covers that. It says
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1 but it's for those ones that have the controls or --

2 MR. HUBER: Well, an example is a sump pump.

3 MR. BROOKMAN: Al Huber?

4 MR. HUBER: Excuse me. I'm sorry.

5 MR. BROOKMAN: That's okay.

6 MR. HUBER: A sump pump has a float switch,

7 which is basically on and off. And that's what we had

8 in mind. I mean, you could call that a feedback loop,

9 I suppose, if you wanted to, but you are correct. An

10 on and off switch may be appropriate for some

11 applications.

12 MR. BROOKMAN: Chuck?

13 MR. STARR: It's closed loop, as opposed to

14 open loop. So what you just described is closed loop.

15 In other words, it feeds back on itself.

16 MR. HUBER: Yes. So, I mean, you know, we

17 just didn't want to exclude any type of control

18 method. That's what we were trying not to do --

19 MR. BROOKMAN: So that was Louis --

20 MR. HUBER: -- so we didn't limit the user.

21 That's what we were after.

22 MR. BROOKMAN: -- followed by Al and now to
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1 Chuck.

2 MR. POWERS: So a question for everybody.

3 Lucas touched on it. We're defining pump. We're

4 defining a lot of things today and others. At the end

5 of the day, any of these questions we ask is a direct

6 relationship. How does that impact efficiency? How

7 does that impact MEI number; right? We can define

8 this however you want, but if it has an on/off switch

9 and it doesn't help or make worse the efficiency, it

10 doesn't matter. So you know what I'm saying?

11 So at the end of the day, the ruling we're

12 trying to come up with is how can we improve

13 efficiency or not? So, you know, in my mind, I'm

14 looking at that saying, you know, if we've got a float

15 switch, it's on or off and, you know, whatever. Does

16 that help or not help; right, the efficiency, where a

17 VFD would. And maybe the right type of soft starters

18 are. You know what I mean? So I'm trying to relate

19 it to how does it help or not help efficiency?

20 MR. BROOKMAN: Alison?

21 MS. WILLIAMS: Let me just clarify or follow

22 on to what Lucas said. So sort of it matters what is
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1 defined here in the broad definition of pump when we

2 define our scope and determine what the metric is,

3 within the metric and the test procedure, we will

4 probably have to be more specific with the individual

5 control types. And so if there is a control type that

6 doesn't save any energy, we may ignore it in the

7 metric and test procedure essentially.

8 MR. BROOKMAN: Steve Rosenstock?

9 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Steve Rosenstock, EEI. For

10 the purposes of this, I'll just throw this out there.

11 Maybe in the first sentence because there can be

12 surge, compression, or other controls on the pump that

13 are safety-related or, you know, that don't

14 necessarily have any impact on the energy usage, do

15 you want to say, "Any device that can be used to

16 control the energy usage of the driver" because there

17 are going to be other controls just for safety

18 purposes or other purposes that they're controlling

19 the driver, but DOE is not going to regulate them?

20 MR. BROOKMAN: If you just use the first

21 sentence, what is not included there? Lucas, go

22 ahead.
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1 MR. ADIN: Well, just as a general point in

2 -- I don't know if this clarifies what I said earlier,

3 but being this broad just gives us the ability to

4 consider various types of controls; right? It

5 certainly doesn't require us to consider them. So we

6 just say it controls broadly any of these types of

7 things. We'll get to that, to deciding exactly which

8 types and how we'll consider them. We don't

9 necessarily have to at all. And I just think, you

10 know, we don't want to be restrictive. If it means

11 that a certain class of pumps is excluded because of

12 the controls that it has or something. Does that at

13 all clarify what I said earlier?

14 MR. POWERS: Yes. That helps a lot. And in

15 my mind now, you know, if I look at a diesel-driven

16 unit with the aspiration, you've got the diesel. And

17 a control could be the aspirator. If you took a gas

18 turbine, you could look at your blade frame. You know

19 what I mean? So there are different controls that

20 control each of these items; right? So I think the

21 broader sense we have it is control means any device

22 that is used to control drivers. You look at all of
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1 these drivers. These have numerous types of governors

2 to whatever; right, not just what we think practical,

3 a VFD or some other things; right? There are all sorts

4 of numerous --

5 MR. BROOKMAN: So I'm hearing that the first

6 complete sentence, "Controls means any driver that can

7 be used to control the driver," that that's inclusive

8 and it's acceptable? Yes? Okay.

9 So then we have now gone through the

10 definition for bare pump, the definition for

11 mechanical equipment, the definition of driver, and

12 the definition of controls.

13 MS. WILLIAMS: Doug, on controls, did we

14 resolve whether the second clause needs to be in there

15 or not?

16 MR. BROOKMAN: I thought we had just -- I

17 implied that the second clause didn't.

18 MS. WILLIAMS: Oh, okay.

19 MR. BROOKMAN: It's out.

20 MS. WILLIAMS: Thank you.

21 MR. BROOKMAN: I'm sorry. I should have

22 been more specific. The second clause is gone.
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1 We have now considered these four

2 definitions:

3 bare pump, mechanical equipment, driver, and

4 controls. I'm going to pose the question, see if we

5 can obtain consensus on these, what is characterized

6 in the slide as the general description of pump

7 components. All those in favor of accepting these

8 four definitions, as edited by Alison on the screen,

9 do so by raising your hand.

10 (Show of hands.)

11 MR. BROOKMAN: So we have everyone in the

12 room. And then, Meg, what is your thought about

13 accepting these definitions?

14 MS. WALTNER: Yes.

15 MR. BROOKMAN: Yes. Okay.

16 MS. WALTNER: Yes.

17 MR. POWERS: Fifteen, on the phone, and one

18 out.

19 MR. BROOKMAN: Fifteen. And then I'm going

20 to count Tom Eckman as being an abstention since he

21 didn't have the capacity to vote.

22 MR. FERNSTROM: This is Gary. Meg said that
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1 Tom had authorized her to have his proxy?

2 MR. BROOKMAN: Yes.

3 MR. FERNSTROM: Does that fit into our rules

4 or --

5 MS. WALTNER: Yes. Tom only authorized me

6 on the one issue --

7 MR. FERNSTROM: Thanks.

8 MS. WALTNER: -- not generally.

9 MR. BROOKMAN: Thank you, Meg. Appreciate

10 that clarification.

11 MS. WALTNER: Yes. I don't feel

12 comfortable. I mean, I would assume he would approve

13 as well, but I don't know.

14 MR. BROOKMAN: Yes. Thank you. Just as a

15 matter of caution, I guess, just a presumption on my

16 part.

17 Okay. So we have then obtained consensus

18 based on our rules. And we do once again have a

19 quorum present on those four definitions. That's

20 great. We're making big progress here. Now, what

21 should we do next?

22 MR. HUBER: Parameters?
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1 MR. BROOKMAN: Parameters? It sounds like a

2 winner. Let's do parameters. Okay. Once again I'm

3 looking at slide 5 now.

4 I thought at the end of our last meeting we

5 had basically considered all of these quite fully.

6 And in the transcript, I said, "Gee, I think these are

7 mostly done." Those are my words.

8 But we didn't vote on it at that point. And

9 I wanted to reserve the vote to give people a chance

10 to mull this over and think it through. And I think

11 that the primary edits, as Alison has shown here, were

12 listed in red: shaft power at BEP and two and four

13 pole being indicative of the range of speeds and six14 inch or smaller bowl diameter. There was about 50-70

15 pages of transcript to cover those items, by the way.

16 Chuck?

17 MR. POWERS: So a question. If we have

18 another discussion or a vote on the kinds of products,

19 the six or, bowl diameter, smaller VTS or HI VSO

20 should be removed because that's under a different

21 classification.

22 MS. WILLIAMS: So right now the proposal has
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1 been that these apply to the pumps recommended by HI.

2 So I don't know if you want to --

3 MR. POWERS: Well, all I'm saying, these are

4 the technical parameters; right?

5 MS. WILLIAMS: Right.

6 MR. POWERS: I'm just thinking if it's six7 inch or smaller, we have another whatever page it is,

8 which was the lot cycle pumps or whatever, we'll get

9 into that category.

10 MS. WILLIAMS: Right. So my understanding

11 is that the more pumps are added to the scope beyond

12 what HI recommended, we would have to have another --

13 MR. POWERS: Right.

14 MS. WILLIAMS: -- discussion about

15 parameters.

16 MR. POWERS: Right. So do you want --

17 MS. WILLIAMS: I mean, I can take it out. I

18 don't care. I am just --

19 MR. POWERS: Or put it under notes maybe.

20 MR. BROOKMAN: And the note would be if --

21 what would the note be?

22 MR. HUBER: It's specific to one model. Al
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1 Huber.

2 MR. BROOKMAN: Thank you, Al.

3 MR. HUBER: It's specific to one model,

4 Chuck, but it's still a parameter -- or not one model.

5 You've got two different models here.

6 MR. POWERS: VSO. They're the same.

7 MS. WILLIAMS: It's the same thing.

8 MR. POWERS: Yes.

9 MR. HUBER: VTS --

10 MR. POWERS: Yes, VTS.

11 MR. HUBER: -- and HI VSO --

12 MR. BROOKMAN: What I heard Alison say a

13 moment ago, VTS/HI VSO, that corresponds to the HI

14 proposal.

15 MR. HUBER: That's correct.

16 MR. BROOKMAN: If this group decides to go

17 broader than the HI proposal, then we may need to

18 modify this parameter.

19 MR. HUBER: Yes. That's correct.

20 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Should we just make a

21 notation along those lines?

22 MR. HUBER: That's fine.
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1 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. And that gives us

2 space; right?

3 MR. POWERS: Okay. Next question is so we

4 agreed on the nominal -- Chuck Powers -- on the two

5 and four pole. I'm still kind of confused, Lucas.

6 What was the DOE to confirm this would exclude,

7 permanent? Can we clean that up now?

8 MR. BROOKMAN: Lucas?

9 MR. ADIN: Well, I still actually have some

10 questions on the speed myself.

11 MR. POWERS: Okay.

12 MR. ADIN: I don't personally feel

13 comfortable voting on that as written, and I think

14 it's mainly about understanding exactly what we're

15 saying with the part where it says, "Designed for

16 nominal two and four-pole speeds." I mean, I

17 understand in terms of an induction motor what that

18 means, but are we considering variable-speed

19 applications, too? I mean, is it a range of speeds or

20 is it --

21 MR. POWERS: Well, I'll try to help. I

22 brought some books here that I gave to your
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1 consultants, --

2 MR. ADIN: Right.

3 MR. POWERS: -- several different motor

4 guides. These are conventional public information

5 books on all kinds of things; right? If you go to

6 induction motors and you go to 1 horsepower, you go to

7 50 horsepower, you go to 200 horsepower, they're not

8 all the exact same speed. They're 3,540 to 3,510 to

9 whatever; right?

10 MR. BROOKMAN: Right.

11 MR. POWERS: So that's where we come to the

12 word "nominal." You go to submersible motors. A lot

13 of them, almost all of them, are fluid- filled. You

14 know, Greg knows this and the other players in this.

15 And fluid-filled, they're going to even run a little

16 slower than that, you know, 3,420, whatever; right?

17 So I think, you know, in my mind, two and four pole

18 was okay, but I think somebody was trying to basically

19 say nominal two and four; right?

20 Because some of them might confuse to think

21 3,600 and 1,200 and they'll get around it. Like I

22 think Sarah was saying before, somebody will say, "Oh,
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1 well, I'm two and four pole. The definition in IEEE

2 is 3,600 rpm. Well, I don't have to comply with

3 this." I'm speculating that's where we were trying to

4 go.

5 MR. HUBER: Right. We said, "nominal." Al

6 Huber, Patterson. Nominal two and four pole. That's

7 the reason we said it that way. That's what it means.

8 MR. ADIN: The theoretical no-load speed for

9 --

10 MR. HUBER: It can be. We just say it's

11 nominal because it can be any. Just like he

12 described, it could be 3,540. It could be 3,590. It

13 could be 3,600.

14 MR. POWERS: Right.

15 (Simultaneous conversation.)

16 MR. POWERS: This is Chuck again speaking.

17 I worked in the field too much starting pumps up, but

18 when you use the word "induction," you throw a whole

19 other parameter. That to me is how quick is that unit

20 going to come up to speed? You know, if you have VFD

21 drives, you know, startup systems and all, you know,

22 induction, you know, may not help you because you have
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1 asynchronous induction, permanent magnet, and the list

2 goes on.

3 MR. ADIN: To clarify, I'm not saying that I

4 think we should include the word "induction" motors in

5 here. I'm wondering whether this limit covers just

6 the pumps that are powered by an induction break.

7 MS. WILLIAMS: So the question --

8 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Can I follow up? I was

9 going to say, you know --

10 MR. BROOKMAN: This is Steve Rosenstock.

11 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Steve Rosenstock, EEI. Is

12 there an issue of concern about six and eight- pole

13 motors out there? Is there something being missed to

14 get over six and eight-pole motors, for whatever

15 reason?

16 MS. WILLIAMS: This is Alison. So I think

17 the question we are trying to answer is if you have an

18 ECM motor, would you still consider it designed for

19 nominal two-pole speed or not?

20 MR. HUBER: Al Huber, Patterson. The pump

21 will be designed to operate at a certain speed. We

22 really don't care what the driver is.
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1 MS. WILLIAMS: Okay.

2 MR. HUBER: So if you want to use a PM

3 motor, it would probably be operating close to the

4 nominal speed of two or four-pole for those in the

5 scope.

6 MS. WILLIAMS: Okay.

7 MR. POWERS: Chuck Powers again. When you

8 go back to what we just voted on -- again, I'm just

9 trying to get in context -- almost to what Al was

10 saying, steam turbines, you know, gas engines, it's

11 where is the pump designed for? Steam turbines we all

12 know can go, what, ten percent more before the blades

13 start to go or other things? So I think the two and

14 four-pole nominal kind of set the stage.

15 MR. LIN: This is Paul Lin with Regal. Why

16 not just say 3,600 nominal or 1,800 nominal, instead

17 of having it 2 or 4-pole speed? Why don't you just --

18 MR. HUBER: Yes. That's fine. I don't

19 care.

20 MR. LIN: That makes it more clear.

21 MR. HUBER: Well, we made 3,600.

22 MR. HANDZEL: But to a --
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1 MR. HUBER: I mean, 2-pole is 36. Eighteen

2 hundred is three-pole.

3 MR. LIN: That makes it agnostic to the

4 driver; right?

5 MR. HUBER: Yes. That's fine. I'm happy

6 with that.

7 MR. BROOKMAN: So the word "nominal," I just

8 want to be -- I understand conceptually what you are

9 trying to say here. I have asked Callie to look it

10 up. What does nominal mean?

11 MS. REIS: Excuse me one second.

12 (Laughter.)

13 MR. BROOKMAN: Just so we're clear.

14 MR. POWERS: She's got the third edition of

15 Google.

16 MS. REIS: Yes. More like 3G.

17 MS. WIDDER: There's really bad service in

18 this room.

19 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Okay. Well, we

20 understand what the concept is supposed to mean. I

21 guess I'm stuck on the word for the moment.

22 So in this last conversation, I heard, I
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1 believe, only from manufacturers. And all the

2 manufacturers said, "Yes. Nominal two and four- pole

3 means, practically speaking, a range of speeds." And

4 we understand what that is. And I haven't heard

5 anything from the energy efficiency folks. That seems

6 okay to you? Okay.

7 MS. WILLIAMS: So -- sorry.

8 MR. HUBER: No.

9 MS. WILLIAMS: This is Alison. Can I --

10 MR. HUBER: That's fine.

11 MS. WILLIAMS: So as potentially more VFDs

12 are used, is there a chance that manufacturers are

13 going to start designing for other nominal speeds that

14 aren't here?

15 MR. HUBER: Probably not because --

16 MR. BROOKMAN: Yes, Al? Go ahead.

17 MR. HUBER: We probably will not. We will

18 design for 3,600 or 1,800. And then you just ramp the

19 speed. That's how you get the various load profiles

20 that you need. We will not be designing anything.

21 And the reason we wouldn't, if you can design a pump

22 to operate properly at 3,600, it is usually smaller
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1 and lighter and less expensive in general, generally

2 speaking. So that's the reason we would not.

3 MS. WILLIAMS: Thank you.

4 MR. HUBER: Is that clear?

5 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Thanks, Al.

6 MR. HUBER: And while we're talking about

7 speed, you know we wrote the letter about why we

8 didn't give you the 1,200 --

9 MS. WILLIAMS: Yes.

10 MR. HUBER: -- is because we all designed at

11 1,800 and then run it at 12 and see what we get.

12 MS. WILLIAMS: Okay.

13 MR. HUBER: Because the market is so small,

14 we don't bother --

15 MS. WILLIAMS: Designing.

16 MR. HUBER: -- design for 1,200.

17 MR. BROOKMAN: Lucas?

18 MR. ADIN: This is just a point of

19 clarification. We have gotten a couple of questions

20 about whether any of the parameters here would exclude

21 things like circulators because a lot of them are

22 under one horsepower. Just reiterating, these
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1 parameters are to narrow the scope within the HI

2 proposal, that group of pumps. So circulators can

3 still be considered, but they would have separate

4 parameters appropriate to them. These would be for

5 the pumps in the HI proposal scope. So the Lot 11 --

6 MR. BROOKMAN: That's a good point. And

7 that raises kind of a process issue for me because if

8 we vote to accept these parameters, then three votes I

9 think could derail, including circulators, if I'm not

10 mistaken.

11 MR. ADIN: Well, the point, Doug, was that

12 if we vote on these, voting in the affirmative on

13 these does not by itself exclude circulators.

14 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay.

15 MR. POWERS: This is Chuck. If I may?

16 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. I agree with that.

17 Chuck, yes?

18 MR. POWERS: I think where -- Lucas is gone,

19 but if I go back to the original agenda that I read

20 the other day when you sent it out and stuff, it is

21 talking about -- where was it? Somewhere about the

22 next opportunities, you know, feasibility timeline,
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1 DOE does a follow-on rulemaking. So the second bullet

2 would be what is the next set.

3 MR. BROOKMAN: Yes. Let me take back what I

4 said a moment ago because the header here reads, "HI

5 standard parameters proposal for HI- recommended

6 pumps." And our overall decision- making rule is

7 everything is included until it is excluded. So

8 circulator pumps are still considered a part of all of

9 this until we decide as a group to exclude them. So

10 that is the clarity that I -- I just had to

11 reinterpret it in my own brain.

12 Steve Rosenstock?

13 MR. ROSENSTOCK: I was just going to say I

14 want to say this is a -- I'm thinking of a universe of

15 HI pump. This is a subset of the HI pump that we're

16 just voting on after discussion.

17 MR. BROOKMAN: Correct.

18 MR. ROSENSTOCK: And then there are other

19 universes of other pumps to be voted on separately.

20 MR. BROOKMAN: Correct. That is a useful

21 clarification.

22 Gary?
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1 MR. FERNSTROM: This is Gary. You answered

2 my question. Thank you.

3 MR. BROOKMAN: Thank you.

4 Paul Lin?

5 MR. LIN: Just on that clarification, 3,600

6 or 1,800 rpm, should that be driver speed versus motor

7 speed?

8 (Simultaneous conversation.)

9 MS. WILLIAMS: This is Alison. I just want

10 to clarify for the transcript that I have written

11 under proposal for both, but it's only for pumps

12 recommended by HI and that modifications or additional

13 parameters may be determined for additional pump types

14 not recommended by HI, just so we're clear.

15 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. That's good. That's

16 inclusive.

17 Yes, Joanna?

18 MS. MAUER: Joanna Mauer. I just wanted to

19 confirm my understanding of these parameters, that

20 they're not exactly the same as the EU parameters, but

21 it's actually a slightly broader scope than EU. Is

22 that fair?
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1 MS. WILLIAMS: So this is Alison. So this

2 slide up here is the EU parameters that we just wanted

3 to display so that everyone sees them and that key

4 differences that we see are that in the EU, the

5 vertical multistage pumps do not have a head or a

6 power limit and the submersible multistage pumps do

7 not have flow head or power limits. So in that way,

8 those are probably more broad in the EU than what is

9 being considered here.

10 MR. BROOKMAN: Greg?

11 MR. TOWSLEY: Greg Towsley, Grundfos. To

12 address that, for us, under the VS8 and the HI,

13 they're probably the broader the manufacturers of that

14 type of pump. Then we only go to 125 horsepower. And

15 for 4 and 6-inch, we only go to 75 horsepower.

16 MR. BROOKMAN: So that's useful --

17 MR. HUBER: In practice --

18 MS. WILLIAMS: In practice if --

19 (Simultaneous speaking.)

20 MR. TOWSLEY: Not speaking for everybody

21 else, I would assume everybody --

22 MS. WILLIAMS: The same thing for a head.
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1 MR. BROOKMAN: Wait a second, though.

2 Someone restate for me the implication of that. Is

3 that you or is it Al or who --

4 MR. TOWSLEY: Greg.

5 MR. BROOKMAN: Greg, say it. So restate.

6 Based on your company's practice versus the EU, what

7 is the implication here?

8 MR. TOWSLEY: Since the pumps are similar in

9 design of what we're talking about in the vertical

10 multistage or the submersible multistage four and six11 inch, the design, physical design, characteristics are

12 not going to allow going much above those horsepower

13 sizes for those types of pumps anyway.

14 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay.

15 MR. TOWSLEY: So, therefore, with not having

16 an upper limit, it's not possible to happen anyway, if

17 that makes sense.

18 MR. BROOKMAN: Yes. Yes. Okay. Joanna?

19 MS. MAUER: Joanna. Can you say anything

20 about the 450 feet of maximum --

21 MR. BROOKMAN: Are you referring to 6, slide

22 6?
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1 MS. MAUER: So I'm referring to slide 5. And

2 I think what Alison was saying is that the 459 feet of

3 maximum head is not a limitation on the EU standards

4 for vertical multistage and submersible multistage.

5 MS. WILLIAMS: Right. So this is Alison.

6 The maximum head only applies to the end suction pumps

7 in the EU. There is no maximum head for the

8 multistage pumps in the EU. So I guess the question

9 is in the same way that they wouldn't go up to 200

10 horsepower, would they also not go up past 459 feet of

11 head?

12 MR. TOWSLEY: The answer to that is yes.

13 MR. BROOKMAN: We really didn't answer your

14 question, did we, Joanna?

15 MR. TOWSLEY: I don't have an answer right

16 off. I will kind of look it up and give you our

17 perspective.

18 MS. MAUER: This is Joanna. Yes. I think

19 what's been a little bit confusing to me is we talk

20 about the HI scope is identical to EU standard, but

21 it's not really. So I think I just want to understand

22 what the differences are and whether those differences
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1 make sense. And so I think it would be helpful to

2 understand, are we excluding pumps that are included

3 in the EU standards? And if so, why are we deciding

4 to do that I guess is my question?

5 MR. HUBER: I have not studied that. This is

6 Al Huber. I have not studied this enough to be sure.

7 And that's what our folks are doing now. But the

8 higher you go on head, the higher the horsepower. So

9 it could be that it's self- limiting, just as he was

10 describing on the other unit. So, you know, we would

11 just have to look at it to be sure they're looking at

12 it now.

13 MR. BROOKMAN: Chuck?

14 MR. POWERS: A couple of questions. I can't

15 see right now, but, Alison, you said you all came up

16 with some of these parameters on the EU?

17 MS. WILLIAMS: No, no, no. We're just

18 reporting what's in the EU legislation.

19 MR. POWERS: Okay. The only question I

20 have, -- help me out -- specific speed between 6 and

21 80 rpm? Charlie, that doesn't --

22 MS. WILLIAMS: It's different units; right,
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1 in the EU.

2 MR. POWERS: Okay.

3 MR. CAPPELLINO: Multiplied by 54 roughly.

4 MS. WILLIAMS: Yes, it's not really rpm.

5 MR. POWERS: I don't think it --

6 MS. WILLIAMS: They call it rpm, but it's

7 not.

8 MR. CAPPELLINO: Right.

9 MS. WIDDER: Right. Those are the verbatim

10 words. Whether or not we agree with them, those are

11 the words.

12 MR. POWERS: You know, I think they give a

13 clarification of that on another page as well.

14 MS. WILLIAMS: I think I do have a

15 definition of what the specifics mean.

16 MR. POWERS: This by itself will not help

17 you, yes.

18 MS. WILLIAMS: No. And we just put this up

19 here so people could see the differences between the

20 EU and the U.S. or your recommendation because it came

21 up so much last time.

22 MR. BROOKMAN: Steve?
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1 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Steve. So, again, the

2 1,450 and the 2,900, that's not analogous either,

3 right?

4 MS. WILLIAMS: Those are the nominal two5 pole and four-pole speeds at 50 hertz; right.

6 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Oh, 50 hertz?

7 MS. WILLIAMS: Yes.

8 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Okay. Got it.

9 MR. POWERS: And then the only other thing,

10 to your question earlier, is where they said, "nominal

11 4 and 6," we're now saying, "6 and smaller." So we

12 broadened it, went the other way.

13 MR. BROOKMAN: Additional questions,

14 comments on these proposed parameters? Greg?

15 MR. TOWSLEY: Greg Towsley, Grundfos. With

16 reference to MS-V, our products depending upon the

17 size can actually get up to -- on one side pushing

18 1,000 feet, most all sizes above 600 feet. And for

19 our MS-S 4 and 6-inch products, all of them have the

20 capability of going above 500 feet and actually going

21 over 1,000, 600 feet anyway.

22 MS. MAUER: This is Joanna. Thank you,
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1 Greg. So it sounds like you're saying that with the

2 459 maximum head across the board, we would be

3 excluding virtually all of at least the vertical

4 multistage and submersible multistage pumps that your

5 company manufactures.

6 MR. TOWSLEY: I'm saying what products we

7 have that the head goes up to.

8 MR. HANDZEL: Yes, but there's a lot --

9 (Simultaneous speaking.)

10 MR. HUBER: You are limited to 200

11 horsepower?

12 MR. TOWSLEY: No.

13 MS. WILLIAMS: What about at nine stages?

14 MR. HUBER: What are you limiting to 200

15 horsepower? What is that for?

16 MR. TOWSLEY: Greg Towsley, Grundfos. The

17 bumps in the head you were talking to, it doesn't even

18 reach 200 horsepower.

19 MR. HUBER: That's what I am asking.

20 MR. BROOKMAN: Alison has a question.

21 MS. WILLIAMS: If you looked at the three22 stage or the nine-stage that we're contemplating
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1 requiring for testing, would those be -- I mean, are

2 these on like really high-stage pumps?

3 MR. TOWSLEY: Yes. Three-stage would for

4 sure be all within those parameters, nine- stage

5 probably.

6 MS. WILLIAMS: Okay. So the reason I ask

7 that is just like if that is the testing parameter,

8 even though technically the higher- stage pumps might

9 fall out of scope, they would essentially be covered;

10 right, because the same model with fewer stages would

11 be covered?

12 MR. HUBER: That is correct. That is

13 correct.

14 MS. WILLIAMS: Right?

15 MR. BROOKMAN: Did everybody follow that? I

16 just barely followed that. Alison, restate that.

17 What is your --

18 MS. WILLIAMS: So my --

19 MR. BROOKMAN: Your insight is?

20 MS. WILLIAMS: My theory is that the EU

21 requires for MS-V I think to test for three stages and

22 for MSS to test with nine stages. Technically the
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1 regulation covers whatever is in scope, but if you are

2 testing and certifying only 3 stages and 9 stages and

3 those fall within scope, you are probably going to use

4 the exact same bowls in your 12-stage pumps. And,

5 therefore, even though they may or may not be

6 technically within the scope, they will still be

7 accruing energy savings.

8 MR. BROOKMAN: Al Huber?

9 MR. HUBER: Basically what you're trying to

10 point out here is that the hydraulic design is exactly

11 the same.

12 MS. WILLIAMS: Right.

13 MR. HUBER: You are just adding more stages

14 to it.

15 MR. POWERS: Exactly right.

16 MR. HUBER: So if you regulated the three

17 and a nine, you have a regulated pump.

18 MS. WILLIAMS: Yes.

19 MR. BROOKMAN: Chuck, add on?

20 MR. POWERS: Yes. I don't have appropriate

21 calculator in front of me, but I'd prefer -- I left it

22 in the car -- to go through all the measurements. But
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1 Charlie can help me out here. In article II of the

2 EU, on the end suction, they go 140 meters. And when

3 you take that times 3.281, you get 459 feet exactly.

4 So what they're doing -- but that was at the 2,900

5 rpm. So what they were doing is taking the maximum

6 speed and the maximum head.

7 And they give another value at 1,450 at 90

8 meters. Again, they use nominal speed and all of

9 that. So where the 459 -- somebody was asking where

10 it came from. That's probably the closest definition

11 I can give.

12 MR. BROOKMAN: Lucas?

13 MR. ADIN: Well, I guess the question -- if

14 that is at 50 hertz speed, we have to consider whether

15 the head should be different or the pump with a

16 nominal speed of 60 hertz. How would that impact

17 that?

18 MR. BROOKMAN: Lucas, would you repeat the

19 question?

20 MR. ADIN: The question is whether it -- so,

21 as I understand what Chuck just said, the basis for

22 that 459 feet of head is like --
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1 MR. POWERS: Well, it's a good question. I

2 called them for a second. And I realized what they

3 did is they say 150 kW, maximum head of 140. So we

4 capped that 200 horse. So, you know, it correlates by

5 definition, like we've talked about.

6 MR. ADIN: So it's related to the shaft

7 power and speed.

8 MR. HUBER: Yes. That is at BEP. And

9 they're not at BEP.

10 MR. POWERS: Right.

11 MR. HUBER: They're not regulated at BEP,

12 are they?

13 MR. POWERS: Right. No, they aren't. They

14 are across the curve.

15 MR. HUBER: Across the curve.

16 MR. POWERS: So the advantage you have is if

17 you have a pump that is BEP but you ask for data at --

18 MR. HANDZEL: A hundred and ten to --

19 MR. POWERS: -- 110, you know, you're going

20 to get the full range of that curve, which may go over

21 the 200.

22 MR. HUBER: But it still would be within
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1 regulations.

2 MR. POWERS: Right.

3 MR. HUBER: It may run out to 225-250. But

4 it still falls within the regulations because its BEP

5 is at 200. So we broadened it in one sense. And you

6 may have narrowed it a little bit in some others, but

7 it is very close.

8 MR. ADIN: Okay.

9 MR. HUBER: And we did not put a limit on

10 1,800 rpm here. I mean, it's the same head. They did.

11 They cut it off.

12 MR. POWERS: They dropped it down; whereas,

13 it's --

14 MR. HUBER: They dropped it down. We

15 didn't. We just left it at 459. So we broadened the

16 1,800. And it may be a little less on the 3,600

17 because the way we specified it at BEP, we're probably

18 not missing anything.

19 MR. BROOKMAN: Greg Case?

20 MR. CASE: Greg Case with HI. Yes. Since we

21 didn't drop it at 1,800, that actually brings in a

22 whole bunch of pumps that would have been excluded had
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1 we dropped it because running at that smaller speed,

2 that brings in several pumps that would have been

3 larger, would have put out larger amounts of head for

4 that. At the four-pole speed, they're going to put

5 out one-quarter of that head. So you actually have --

6 you have covered pumps much larger than the Europeans

7 have in this case.

8 MR. HUBER: Yes.

9 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Thank you.

10 Greg?

11 MR. TOWSLEY: Greg Towsley, Grundfos. Just a

12 clarification. We do have some nine-stage MS-S that

13 go over the 460 feet.

14 MR. CASE: But, again, they're covered under

15 the 1,800; right? Under 1,800, they'd still be

16 covered?

17 MR. BROOKMAN: Greg is nodding his head yes.

18 He says true, true. Okay.

19 Have we discussed this fully now? I see a

20 few heads. I'll ask it again. Have we discussed this

21 fully now? Joanna?

22 MS. MAUER: Joanna. Greg, can you just
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1 expand on what you just said just so I understand?

2 MR. BROOKMAN: Louder, Joanna.

3 MS. MAUER: I'm asking Greg if he can

4 explain to me his comment about running at 1,800, that

5 it would be covered.

6 MR. CASE: Greg Case with HI. You're

7 actually getting pumps that would be of a larger size

8 than would be covered because since we're running them

9 at this lower speed, they are going to be below these

10 head and power limits. So you're getting several

11 pumps that would have been excluded from this had we

12 put in that 90-meter barrier that the EU put in.

13 You're getting several more pumps because running at

14 that lower speed, they're going to have the lower head

15 level. They're going to be one-quarter of the head

16 level. They're going to be one-eighth of the power

17 level. So you're going to have a fairly large number

18 of pumps that were included in this at this 459 head

19 level.

20 MR. HUBER: Basically the 90 is about 280

21 feet because if we had followed the EU exactly, we

22 would have put the same caveat in our 1,800, which
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1 would have been 280, instead of 469.

2 MR. HANDZEL: All right. Joanna, it's

3 really crude. This is Mark Handzel from Xylem. So

4 what they're saying is if this was a 1,750 curve, you

5 know, if we were to follow the EU cutting it off, it

6 would have cut it off there. But we didn't use their

7 1,750 cut. We left it at the high-speed cut. So it

8 included the entire range of this curve. Okay? So

9 it's not exact to scale or anything but just a rough

10 way it would look.

11 MS. MAUER: This is Joanna. Thank you.

12 That's helpful. And now I'm just trying to

13 understand.

14 MR. HANDZEL: Okay.

15 MS. MAUER: So, Greg, you're saying you do

16 have some nine-pole? What are these?

17 MR. TOWSLEY: Nine-stage?

18 MS. MAUER: Nine-stage?

19 MR. TOWSLEY: Yes.

20 MS. MAUER: That are above the 459?

21 MR. TOWSLEY: Yes. For instance, we have a

22 six -- this is Greg Towsley with Grundfos. We have a
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1 6-inch that with 9-stage at BEP is 520 feet. If we

2 were running it at 1,800 rpm, quickly

3 --

4 MS. MAUER: This is Joanna. So you're

5 saying that the same pump you will offer at both

6 speeds?

7 MR. TOWSLEY: Yes.

8 MR. POWERS: The horsepower goes back.

9 MS. MAUER: Okay. But it's the same pump

10 model.

11 MR. TOWSLEY: Oh, yes, yes.

12 MR. HUBER: Yes, it's the same pump model.

13 So you have got to regulate it under the 1,800. So

14 it's still going to get in there.

15 MR. TOWSLEY: The horsepower goes by the

16 cube speed.

17 MR. BROOKMAN: Lucas?

18 MR. ADIN: Just as a point of clarification,

19 maybe for my own benefit, but these pumps that we're

20 considering, can they only run at both speeds or are

21 some just one and not the other or --

22 MR. HUBER: Some do, and some don't. It
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1 depends on how the designer designed it mechanically.

2 MR. ADIN: Yes.

3 MR. HUBER: And I assume from what Greg has

4 said, that they design theirs mechanically so they run

5 at both speeds.

6 MR. ADIN: Right.

7 MR. HUBER: And we do that on some types of

8 pumps, and some types of pumps we do not do that.

9 MR. POWERS: It becomes -- this is Chuck --

10 more of a factor on the peripheral velocity and the

11 impellers, which is more of a factor. And they get

12 bigger. They get up to larger diameters. There is

13 what we call tip speed. And most manufacturers,

14 designers will say their tip speed on a material like

15 bronze will be 70 feet per second. Stainlesses will

16 be 80. And then if you get into some really fancy

17 stuff, like you do with the Navy, it will go even

18 higher. But that's all regulated.

19 MR. BROOKMAN: So that was just Chuck. And

20 prior to that was Al. Now Charlie?

21 MR. CAPPELLINO: Charlie Cappellino, ITT.

22 So I think the situation is pumps that are designed to
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1 operate at 3,600 rpm can always operate at 1,780 rpm -

2 -

3 MR. HUBER: That is correct.

4 MR. CAPPELLINO: -- designed for 2-pole and

5 one at 4-pole. The converse is not always the case.

6 MR. HUBER: That's correct.

7 MR. CAPPELLINO: The pump is designed to

8 operate at 4-pole speeds for 1,780 rpm. They cannot

9 always be run at the 2-pole or 3 --

10 MR. BROOKMAN: Thank you, Charlie.

11 Now to Greg?

12 MR. TOWSLEY: Greg Towsley, Grundfos. I

13 think in some cases, we have some pumps at actually

14 3,600 rpm, 1,800 rpm, and all the way down to 1,200

15 rpm possibly. But they have that high design point.

16 And, as Chuck said, you start running that same pump

17 at 1,200 rpm. You have a really big pump running

18 really slow, which you can actually buy a smaller pump

19 that's less expensive, maybe more efficient.

20 MR. HUBER: That's true.

21 MR. POWERS: Yes, right. There are two

22 factors.
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1 MR. BROOKMAN: Chuck?

2 MR. POWERS: There are hydraulic factors,

3 and there are mechanical. So, even if you take

4 something and want to run it faster, maybe

5 hydraulically it's okay, but if you have roller

6 bearings, the end suction or sleeve bearing or

7 whatever, their limitations are going to change. And

8 then you run into issues.

9 MR. HUBER: Yes.

10 MR. POWERS: L over d. Yes.

11 MR. HUBER: It just depends on the type of

12 pump, but the ones that are in scope today, I mean, if

13 we were just looking at the HI scope, actually, with

14 the parameters we have given, we have included more

15 pumps than the EU did.

16 MR. BROOKMAN: Louis?

17 MR. HUBER: By the way, we did it.

18 MR. STARR: So the best efficiency point is

19 taken at each one of the speeds. So if it's 1,200,

20 it's the best efficiency point at that point. And

21 then if you do it at 18, it's rated at the speeds.

22 MR. POWERS: And the reason is because when
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1 you do slow them down, the best efficiency point

2 doesn't actually track to the -- it is tracked to the

3 linear, straight linear, curve on the speed; right?

4 MR. STARR: Is that the static head question

5 or is that something else? In other words, there was

6 static head. It doesn't come back down.

7 MR. POWERS: Right. So, in other words,

8 what we're saying, if you go by BEP, you're going to

9 get the best, rather than do it by the straight speed

10 factors.

11 MR. STARR: Okay.

12 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay? Joanna?

13 MS. MAUER: Charlie, so you said a pump that

14 is designed to operate at 3,600 can always operate at

15 a lower speed.

16 MR. CASE: At 17, yes, the next speed down.

17 MS. MAUER: I guess what I am trying to

18 understand, so a pumps that's designed to operate at

19 3,600, would it have to be certified at the lower

20 speed, too, or --

21 MR. ADIN: So this is Lucas. I think that's

22 something we'll have to figure out maybe a little bit
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1 farther down the line because we're going to have to

2 determine at which speed that particular pump is going

3 to be subject to the standard. That's where we're at

4 a standard, but is that standard applicable at 3,600

5 or at 1,800 or --

6 MS. MAUER: Right.

7 MR. ADIN: I don't know that we're figuring

8 that out today.

9 MS. MAUER: So this is Joanna. Yes. I

10 guess I'm just wondering, is it important for this

11 question of does it make sense to have the maximum

12 head apply to all types of pumps, including the

13 multistage pumps?

14 MR. BROOKMAN: Al?

15 MR. HUBER: Al Huber, Patterson. You know,

16 I think that as an industry, if you want to go back to

17 the EU definitions, we would be more than happy to.

18 If you do that, then you're going to have less pumps

19 than what you are covering in your scope. If you'd

20 like to do that, we would be more than happy to do it.

21 MS. MAUER: So this is Joanna. I'm not

22 trying to suggest that. I just want to understand,
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1 are we excluding pumps that are included in the EU

2 standard? If we are, I just want to understand.

3 MR. HUBER: No. For the HI models we're

4 discussing, for the, for lack of a better term, Lot

5 11. We're including more pumps than they are.

6 MS. MAUER: This is Joanna. And that also

7 applies to the vertical multistage and submersible

8 multistage categories?

9 MR. HUBER: That applies to whatever is up

10 here.

11 MS. WILLIAMS: So this is Alison. Isn't

12 what's actually happening is you're covering more end

13 suction pumps, but potentially we're covering fewer

14 multistage pumps?

15 MR. HUBER: No, no.

16 MS. WILLIAMS: No?

17 MR. HUBER: That's not what I said.

18 MS. WILLIAMS: I know that's not what you

19 said.

20 MR. HUBER: If you --

21 MS. WILLIAMS: I am just double checking.

22 MR. BROOKMAN: Al Huber?
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1 MR. HUBER: I am going back to what Greg

2 said. He makes those pumps for both 1,800 and 36.

3 It's the same hydraulic model. So if he certifies it

4 at 1,800, it's still the same certified pump that he's

5 going to operate at 3,600. And we did not, and we did

6 not, put a limitation on the head the way that the EU

7 did and lowered it. We kept it the same. So,

8 therefore, you are actually gaining more in every

9 category that's up there than you would have if we

10 went by the EU model. That's why I just said if you

11 guys want to go to the EU model, we're happy to do it.

12 MS. WILLIAMS: So this is Alison. Thank

13 you. I am just trying to clarify, I think, what she

14 is getting at; right, and what Lucas is talking about,

15 is this other issue of do you -- and the EU people are

16 certifying pumps at both 1,800 and 3,600 speeds. And

17 I don't know if it's been determined here it is

18 actually how that will work. And so what you're

19 saying is true if that is how it happens here, but

20 since that hasn't been flushed out, there's a little

21 bit of sort of ambiguity, I think.

22 So I agree with what you're saying for that
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1 structure.

2 MR. BROOKMAN: Greg Case?

3 MR. CASE: Greg Case, HI. The other part of

4 this is we're supposedly concentrating on off-the5 shelf equipment here and not engineered product, where

6 it's engineered for a specific application. If you

7 get beyond these definitions, and you start getting

8 into creeping into the engineered product realm, which

9 is going to be designed to a spec by the end user or

10 whatever his firm is -- so we have really covered

11 most, the broad spectrum, of catalog pumps out there

12 is what we're trying to say, I guess.

13 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay.

14 MS. MAUER: This is Joanna. Greg, are you

15 saying that the EU standards cover pumps that are not

16 catalog pumps or --

17 MR. CASE: No. They were looking for

18 catalog pumps, too. But, as we said, they have

19 reduced the number of multistage pumps because they

20 did reduce that head level.

21 MS. MAUER: This is Joanna. On the

22 multistage pumps in the EU, there is no head limit;
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1 right?

2 MS. WILLIAMS: They've only reduced the

3 singles, the end suction pumps.

4 MR. POWERS: Well, yes. Chuck Powers. There

5 are arguments over that in different groups. This

6 table of definitions starts with number 1 and is

7 consecutive as you go down through it. Right? So the

8 first thing they say is they get into the horsepower

9 because they don't say "horsepower" down below on the

10 submersibles.

11 MR. BROOKMAN: You are referring to EU

12 definitions?

13 MR. POWERS: Yes, the EUs where she was

14 clarifying that. She is right in all the statements

15 except for the red because, you know, the way they

16 were trying to define is that you start here and they

17 work their way through all the end suctions. Then

18 they get down to vertical. They say, "Well, the

19 verticals have a 25 bar because all the other ones are

20 16 bar." That's the working pressure; right? And

21 then they get into the other factors; right?

22 MS. WILLIAMS: Yes. So right. I am
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1 actually trying to pull up the EU regulation, but I am

2 pretty confident that these are related to -- that it

3 is not additive; right? There are some, like the

4 clean water between -10 and 120 clearly applies to

5 everything in the EU legislation. But these ones

6 clearly apply to --

7 MR. POWERS: I'm going by article II. You're

8 talking about article I. Article II starts out with

9 the product and worked it way down. They are

10 consecutively --

11 MS. MAUER: Chuck, this is Joanna. But the

12 150-kilowatt that's in the definition for end suction

13 water pump, not the definition for water pump.

14 MR. POWERS: Yes. I realize that, but they

15 start out with each one of those defining it. And then

16 they say if something changes, like 16 bar, down

17 below, it goes to 25 bar. And then they don't mention

18 the 25 bar of number 9, which is submersible because

19 it's already stated above it. Do you see what I'm

20 saying? So as you go, you either go up in range or

21 change. That's the way

22 --
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1 MR. HUBER: That's the way they wrote it.

2 MR. POWERS: That's the way they wrote it.

3 And if you go to the meetings, you go to the

4 clarifications --

5 MS. MAUER: It's not clear to me, but maybe

6 it's not --

7 MR. POWERS: No. At first, I was puzzled,

8 too. And then there's other excerpts that read how

9 that works and how they try to define it. And that's

10 why when you put in red there "No head or power."

11 There is no flow in power. Power is the definition.

12 MS. WILLIAMS: So you're looking at article

13 I?

14 MR. POWERS: Article I is what you mentioned

15 about the water pumps, --

16 MS. WILLIAMS: Okay.

17 MR. POWERS: -- the temperatures, and that.

18 But then you go to article II. They start out the

19 definitions independent. So article I applies to

20 everything; right? Then they start at definitions,

21 and they work it down.

22 MS. WILLIAMS: Okay. So article I only
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1 talks about the -10 to 100-degree temperatures. Water

2 pumps designed only for firefighting applications,

3 displacement pumps, and self-priming pumps.

4 And then article II does have the

5 definitions. And all of these things right here are

6 in the definition for end suction water pump.

7 MR. POWERS: Right. No argument. And as

8 you work down, you will notice they don't restate some

9 of the factors above. Like they say 25 bar. And then

10 you go down to the submersibles, there's no bar rating

11 because they stated it in the previous one.

12 MS. WILLIAMS: Yes. I mean, the way I read

13 this is that those are completely separate.

14 MR. POWERS: When you go to the meetings and

15 you read all of the subscripts and the other

16 definitions to it that -- I mean, you can go back five

17 years with the EU.

18 MR. BROOKMAN: They are inclusive.

19 MR. POWERS: And they are inclusive.

20 MS. MAUER: It feels like if they wanted to

21 be inclusive, they would have said --

22 MR. POWERS: They're trying to say you
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1 --

2 MS. WILLIAMS: They want to put them in

3 article 1 if they applied to everything, I think. So

4 okay. Regardless, perhaps what is going on in the EU

5 is that they are interpreting the regulation more

6 broadly than one would if you just read the

7 regulation. So that's one thing; right?

8 MR. POWERS: When you say, "more broadly,"

9 we have stuff that we're broader than they are.

10 MS. WILLIAMS: Yes. And so, I mean, maybe

11 this is -- it seems like the understanding of what the

12 EU is doing is a little bit broader than what their

13 scope actually is in the legislation.

14 I don't know that -- I mean, obviously I

15 don't have a vote here. And I don't particularly care

16 that much what happens. I think that to me, it seems

17 like the only remaining issue is just some people

18 trying to understand what is going on with the

19 multistage pumps. And it is a little difficult to

20 answer without knowing how you are going to certify

21 your pump, at what speed. And, as far as I

22 understand, that is the only thing that is sort of
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1 still at question here.

2 MR. BROOKMAN: Where are we with this

3 question? It seems like -- I am not sure where we are

4 at this moment. Gary Fernstrom?

5 MR. FERNSTROM: This is Gary. Let's take a

6 vote.

7 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay.

8 MR. FERNSTROM: We have got to wait for

9 Louis to come back, I guess, but --

10 MR. BROOKMAN: Joanna?

11 MS. MAUER: This is Joanna. I would prefer

12 not to take a vote until we understand or I understand

13 what we're voting on. And I don't.

14 MR. BROOKMAN: Well, go ahead, Lucas.

15 MR. ADIN: It seems like Joanna might have

16 had some more. When you asked that question, what

17 we're voting on, do you mean as far as these

18 parameters or what they apply to or --

19 MS. MAUER: This is Joanna. Maybe I should

20 rephrase this, say, understand what these parameters,

21 which pumps they would cover and not cover. And it

22 seems like on the multistage pumps, that we don't
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1 necessarily have a clear answer right now.

2 MR. HUBER: Well, I think it --

3 MR. BROOKMAN: Al Huber?

4 MR. HUBER: At least from what Greg said --

5 I don't want to put words in his mouth, but he says

6 his pumps -- it's the same thing for all of us who

7 make those pumps, the two which are in question now --

8 that he's making them at 1,800 and 3,600. It's the

9 same hydraulic design.

10 If you're concerned about hydraulic

11 efficiency -- and I assume that you are -- if you test

12 it at the 1,800, it's going to be the same thing at

13 3,600. I mean, hydraulic design is not changing.

14 MS. MAUER: So this is Joanna. And that's

15 helpful. I think what Lucas was saying is that hasn't

16 been determined how pumps will be tested and will they

17 have to be tested at 3,600 or I should say will they

18 have -- I think I am mixing this up -- will they have

19 to be tested at 1,800 if they are designed for 3,600?

20 And that would seem to affect whether they do fall in

21 the scope of coverage or not.

22 MR. POWERS: I think the data collection, we
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1 had to get data at the --

2 MR. HUBER: Both speeds.

3 MR. POWERS: -- in both speeds, yes.

4 MR. ADIN: So yes. The way that I interpret

5 this is a pump, if it's designed to be operated at

6 either or both speeds, then it's covered. So you

7 would still need to determine which speed you use for

8 the rating condition for that pump for establishing a

9 rating and for comparing its efficiency to a standard.

10 But it wouldn't preclude it from being covered within

11 the scope of the standards. Does that clarify at all

12 what you're asking?

13 MR. BROOKMAN: Greg?

14 MR. TOWSLEY: Greg Towsley. Maybe as an

15 interpretation, Joanna, if the rulemaking came out

16 with the parameters that HI has proposed and we had a

17 pump that was, say, at 3,600 and was outside the

18 parameters, if we wanted to sell it or propose to sell

19 it or published a curve at 1,800 rpm, we would

20 interpret that we would have to test it, even though

21 at 3,600, it fell outside of it. So I would interpret

22 that we would have to go ahead and test it and be
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1 proposed, even though outside at 3,600, it wouldn't.

2 So it would still get the test and whatever to meet

3 the DOE standards, even though at 3,600 rpm, we would

4 --

5 MS. MAUER: Maybe I can try to restate what

6 you said, Lucas, that if it were -- so if it fell

7 outside the scope at 3,600 and that's in the test

8 procedure specified that it be tested at 3,600 but --

9 MR. ADIN: No.

10 MR. BROOKMAN: Lucas?

11 MR. ADIN: The way I'm thinking about this -

12 - and if others at the table have different ideas

13 about it, I am sure you will speak up -- if a pump can

14 be operated at 3,600 and 1,800 and it falls outside of

15 the scope at one of the speeds, it is still in scope

16 because at the other speed, it is within scope; right?

17 MR. HUBER: Yes.

18 MR. ADIN: And so we would have to create a

19 rating condition at that speed for that pump.

20 Now, if it's within scope at both speeds, we

21 still have to choose whether it will be rated at one

22 or both or whatever, but the point is that it's still
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1 within scope.

2 MS. MAUER: Okay.

3 MR. ADIN: Does that help?

4 MS. MAUER: That is helpful. So I think the

5 key point capable of being operated at a given speed -

6 -

7 MR. ADIN: That's essentially the intent.

8 MR. BROOKMAN: Al Huber?

9 MR. HUBER: Al Huber, Patterson. It's the

10 same thing with a 1,200 rpm. It's why we didn't

11 report that back to Navigant is that we are going to

12 be marking those pumps at 1,800 and they're going to

13 be certified at 1,800. It's the same design, the same

14 principle. It's the same design, hydraulic design,

15 we're using for 1,200. So if we do anything to improve

16 the efficiency at 1,800, you automatically get that

17 improvement for the 1,200. And, you know, you don't

18 have to regulate it or you don't have to -- because

19 it's already regulated. The same thing applies here

20 except we're going in the opposite direction,

21 basically.

22 MR. BROOKMAN: Let's take a vote. Shall we
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1 vote? Let's do it.

2 MR. POWERS: Question?

3 MR. BROOKMAN: Chuck?

4 MR. HUBER: Let's take a vote.

5 MR. POWERS: We're voting on a TBD?

6 MS. WILLIAMS: No. We're voting on the

7 items listed "OK - March 4th."

8 MALE SPEAKER: Everything but clean water.

9 MR. HUBER: Everything but clean water?

10 MR. POWERS: So we're voting on the left

11 column of "ok"?

12 MS. WILLIAMS: Yes.

13 MR. POWERS: Instead of three-fourths?

14 Anyway, I think that's three-quarters. So you put the

15 actual --

16 MR. ADIN: And, just to clarify again --

17 this is Lucas -- we're voting on these parameters.

18 Voting on these parameters means they would apply to -

19 -

20 MR. POWERS: HI's proposal.

21 MR. HUBER: She's got it down there.

22 MR. ADIN: Right. We would still need to
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1 just make sure it's clear for everyone here. We would

2 still need to make potentially decisions about any

3 other pumps that are excluded.

4 MR. BROOKMAN: Yes. As the header says, "HI

5 standards parameter proposal for HI- recommended pumps

6 only," so just to reinforce what Lucas just said.

7 Steve?

8 MR. ROSENSTOCK: This is the first subset of

9 covered pumps? Is that another way to say it?

10 MS. WILLIAMS: Well, there has not been a

11 vote yet.

12 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Right.

13 MR. BROOKMAN: These would be the parameters

14 are characterized as a first subset. Yes. I guess it

15 would be that. Yes.

16 So I'm going to just read them so they are

17 in the record, "Impeller diameter, 1 to 200 hp - shaft

18 power at BEP, 25 gpm and greater at BEP, 459 of head

19 maximum at BEP, design temperature range from -10 to

20 120 degrees C, pumps designed for nominal 3,600 or

21 1,800 rpm drivers, at 6 inches or smaller bowl

22 diameter." That's what we're considering here. I'm
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1 about to do this. Are you ready? All those in favor

2 of those seven parameters being accepted by the

3 Working Group as the first subset, as Steve says,

4 raise your hand.

5 (Show of hands.)

6 MR. BROOKMAN: So all persons in the room

7 have accepted this proposal. Meg, are you still with

8 us?

9 MS. WALTNER: Yes. And I accept, too.

10 MR. BROOKMAN: And you are a yes also. So we

11 have once again 15 yeses. And Tom Eckman is in

12 absentia. So we'll list him as being an abstention.

13 And then he can change his vote. He can vote with us

14 or I guess whatever he wishes to do later.

15 So that was a lot of work. We covered a lot

16 of ground there. Let's applaud.

17 (Applause.)

18 MR. BROOKMAN: I think maybe we should take

19 a break. And I think that the little coffee shop,

20 which is on the sixth floor on the other side of this

21 corridor, is open until 3:00 or maybe even 4:00. So

22 if anybody wants to follow me up there, all you do is
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1 climb the stairs. We're on 4. Climb the stairs until

2 6. This is a big vertical --

3 MS. KOHL: There's a bigger snack bar on the

4 4th floor.

5 MR. BROOKMAN: On the 4th floor?

6 MS. KOHL: Yes. Yes. It's on the other

7 side.

8 MR. BROOKMAN: There is?

9 MS. KOHL: Yes.

10 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay.

11 MR. HUBER: Where? Which direction?

12 MR. BROOKMAN: You mean across the --

13 MR. HUBER: Which way or --

14 MS. KOHL: If you go --

15 MR. BROOKMAN: Across the bridge.

16 MS. KOHL: We've got A and B corridor over

17 here. If you go across that glass bridge and then

18 kind of go around, it's on the far side.

19 MR. BROOKMAN: That's why I was saying stick

20 with me. We'll stay close. Okay?

21 It's now almost 2:40. We'll resume at 2:55.

22 Okay? Sixth floor, just one corridor over.
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1 (Off the record.)

2 (On the record.)

3 MR. BROOKMAN: I was just talking with

4 Alison about what we should do next. And she said

5 that we didn't do a final vote on the definitions, the

6 clarifications that Chuck provided earlier. We did

7 sort of a nominal -- may I use that word "vote"? -- on

8 fire pumps, Navy pumps, and nuclear pumps. And we

9 were clear. It was offered that marine pumps should

10 not be on the exclusions list. But apparently I

11 neglected to do kind of a final consensus vote on

12 those three items, which I think are fully --

13 MS. WILLIAMS: Fire pumps we already voted

14 on.

15 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. So we just --

16 MS. WILLIAMS: We just slightly modified the

17 definition, which I think is great.

18 MR. BROOKMAN: So, then, both Navy pumps and

19 nuclear pumps I'd like to at this point have a vote on

20 those to make sure these items would be on the

21 exclusions list and that the recommended language,

22 which Alison has been editing up here, that everybody
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1 is okay with that.

2 And, Meg, I don't know whether you were here

3 for that discussion this morning or not.

4 MS. MAUER: This is Joanna. Meg let me know

5 she was going to be a little bit late coming back from

6 --

7 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. You all are doing a

8 good job of keeping up with each other. I appreciate

9 that. Gary?

10 MR. FERNSTROM: So this is Gary. We're

11 going to be excluding any pump that glows in the dark?

12 MALE SPEAKER: It hasn't been added yet, but

13 we can.

14 MR. HUBER: We can if you would like, Gary.

15 MR. BROOKMAN: Day-Glo pumps. So let me

16 call the question. We discussed, as I said,

17 completely fire pumps, Navy pumps, and nuclear pumps.

18 Alison says that we have already voted to exclude fire

19 pumps. We just did clarification on how it should be

20 specified or how it should be described here.

21 So let me ask you now. All of those in

22 favor of excluding Navy pumps and nuclear pumps,
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1 please do so by raising your hands.

2 (Show of hands.)

3 MR. BROOKMAN: And I am catching my eyes

4 around the room. All members present wish to exclude

5 -- and I guess we'll have to get with Meg when she

6 gets back in the room. Okay? So that's 14?

7 Fourteen. We've got that?

8 So what should we do next? We have really

9 made tremendous progress in three-quarters of a day.

10 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Doug?

11 MR. BROOKMAN: Yes, Steve?

12 MR. ROSENSTOCK: To follow along with Gary,

13 if there is a way to add another "to be determined" --

14 what was the phrase of your pump that might be

15 excluded from this? Residential pool pump or how

16 would you --

17 MR. FERNSTROM: Well, Lucas, I don't know

18 that that would do it. If we were to add residential

19 pool pumps to the exclusion, that would simply mean

20 that that is not going to be regulated. But it's

21 still a covered product.

22 MR. ADIN: Yes.
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1 MR. FERNSTROM: And the states are still

2 preempted. So that wouldn't necessarily help us;

3 right?

4 MR. ADIN: It wouldn't help with the

5 situation that you were concerned about specifically

6 regarding residential. That's right. So it would

7 exclude it form the scope of the standards but not --

8 MR. FERNSTROM: So maybe what we ought to do

9 is we don't have to take an action on that, but an

10 alternative might be to as we proceed specifically

11 include pool pumps.

12 MR. BROOKMAN: Well, right now it's included

13 since we haven't excluded it yet.

14 MR. FERNSTROM: Well, that's right, but, I

15 mean, you know, analyze, you know, set some rule for

16 pool pumps.

17 MR. BROOKMAN: Right. So I'll make a

18 notation about that. We won't forget about it.

19 Al?

20 MR. HUBER: I want to ask Gary a question

21 about pool pumps because, you know, I see larger city

22 folks and that kind of stuff just end suction pumps,
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1 which are already regulated. Wouldn't it be regulated

2 under end suction pumps?

3 MR. FERNSTROM: No. The California

4 regulation addresses single-phase pool pumps under

5 five horsepower, which are typically applied for

6 residential and small commercial pools.

7 MR. HUBER: Yes, but the --

8 MR. FERNSTROM: And the two-speed, multi9 speed requirement specifically applies to residential

10 pools. It's application-sensitive. So that is

11 problematic, but that is what it does.

12 MR. BROOKMAN: Lucas?

13 MR. ADIN: These are not specific to the

14 applications.

15 MR. FERNSTROM: I know. Right.

16 MR. HUBER: But I don't think, Gary, that

17 these exclude it either now that I'm thinking about it

18 because you've got a control. You can consider your

19 piece a part of the control, couldn't you?

20 MR. FERNSTROM: Well, --

21 MR. BROOKMAN: That's Al Huber. And now

22 back to Gary. Go ahead.
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1 MR. HUBER: I'm sorry. I'm sorry.

2 MR. FERNSTROM: This is Gary. The problem

3 is that whatever state regulations there are that

4 regulate residential pool pumps will be preempted by

5 the scope of this regulation. So they'll have to be

6 rewritten around the motors that are associated with

7 these pumps, rather than the pumps. And the figure of

8 merit of performance has to do with the pump, not the

9 motor. So it's going to be really, really challenging

10 to avoid just wiping out all of those state

11 regulations, which is what we have just done.

12 MR. BROOKMAN: Let me see. So Joanna first?

13 MS. MAUER: This is Joanna. My

14 understanding is that most, if not all, pool pumps are

15 self-priming. Is that correct?

16 MR. FERNSTROM: Yes.

17 MR. HUBER: They would be eliminated.

18 MS. MAUER: They would be excluded. So if

19 we do want to include them --

20 MR. HUBER: Not all.

21 MR. LIN: Not all.

22 MS. MAUER: -- we would I think want to
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1 revisit excluding self-priming pumps.

2 MR. BROOKMAN: It's something we could

3 consider.

4 Paul Lin?

5 MR. LIN: Maybe it's the question to DOE

6 here that most of the applications that Gary is

7 concerned about specifically on the residential side,

8 this particular rulemaking, is on the commercial and

9 industrial. Does that matter?

10 MR. ADIN: It doesn't matter. No. From the

11 DOE's standpoint, a pump is a pump, regardless of

12 whether it's used in a commercial or a residential

13 setting. And to the extent we exclude any pumps based

14 on their characteristics and operating parameters --

15 MR. BROOKMAN: Steve Rosenstock is giving us

16 a quizzical look. Go ahead.

17 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Steve Rosenstock, EEI. Just

18 again to kind of follow up the conversation,

19 especially for what Albert was saying, a commercial

20 pool pump for a hotel would be covered under this

21 scope right now, would it not?

22 MR. FERNSTROM: If it were a three-phase
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1 pump --

2 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Three-phase. That's one.

3 Especially for a three-phase --

4 MR. HUBER: We don't know about those.

5 MALE SPEAKER: We don't know anything about

6 three-phase.

7 MR. HUBER: Excuse me.

8 MR. BROOKMAN: Al Huber?

9 MR. HUBER: We don't know describe whether

10 or not it is single or three-phase in this.

11 MR. FERNSTROM: A big pump in a big hotel

12 would be covered because it's a pump. It's probably

13 sold separate from the motor.

14 MR. HUBER: Well, it may or may not be. It

15 may or may not be, but the phase doesn't matter.

16 MR. FERNSTROM: Right. So the big pumps are

17 covered.

18 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Can I rephrase? I'm sorry.

19 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Steve wasn't finished.

20 Steve?

21 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Let me rephrase. A

22 commercial -- I'll say a hotel. A commercial pool
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1 pump right now is not excluded from the scope. You

2 know, is that correct?

3 MR. FERNSTROM: Right.

4 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Okay.

5 MS. WILLIAMS: So unless it is excluded by

6 other parameters, such as self-priming --

7 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Right.

8 MS. WILLIAMS: So we're saying that the pool

9 pumps would fall into one of the end suction category.

10 MR. HUBER: The commercial ones were --

11 MS. WILLIAMS: Would, yes. But if they were

12 self-priming, then as of now they were --

13 MR. ROSENSTOCK: And I just want to follow

14 up. That's okay with California. There are no issues

15 there.

16 MR. FERNSTROM: Yes. California doesn't

17 regulate commercial pools --

18 MR. ROSENSTOCK: I just wanted to get that

19 clarification.

20 MR. FERNSTROM: -- or motors.

21 MR. BROOKMAN: Chuck?

22 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Thank you.
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1 MR. POWERS: So if I can understand? I have

2 heard several things. You mentioned phase, single3 phase, three-phase. Okay? Under this parameter, like

4 Al was saying, it would be covered, whether it was

5 single-phased. Okay?

6 Number two, on efficiency, one of the areas

7 that the pool pumps have gone a long way to do it, the

8 small one ones, including the larger ones, end

9 suctions, they have gone to positive materials. Okay?

10 They didn't do it because of efficiency at first, but

11 they did it because of chlorine. You know, now we've

12 got saltwater pools. And it behooves itself. So

13 that, in itself, they have gone a long way.

14 Third, today two or three of the top players

15 do a VFD drive with the motor integral to the pump all

16 combined. Some of them are self- priming. Some of

17 them aren't on the gradient level where they are

18 sitting from the pool house. But they aren't only end

19 suctions. There's other products to get out their

20 basis because when you call pool pumps, I have heard

21 some people go over to aquariums and Sea World and you

22 name it. And there's a whole level of other products
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1 and all of that.

2 MR. FERNSTROM: Well, these are swimming

3 pools for people. So they're mostly end suction

4 --

5 MR. POWERS: The same companies build both;

6 right?

7 MR. FERNSTROM: Yes. So I'm agreeing with

8 everything you're saying, too.

9 MR. POWERS: Okay. So the point is the way

10 the definition that we have been voting on so far will

11 except for less than one horse, which there is some on

12 that. It's some really small ones. But even some

13 individual pool pumps, they're one-horsepower, one and

14 a half maybe, things like that, kind of that big;

15 right? So I think we're covered -- okay? -- unless

16 you want to have something specific; right? Nothing

17 leaves it out.

18 MR. FERNSTROM: So far as the pump head is

19 concerned, yes, but the California regulations require

20 two, multi, or variable-speed for pumps greater than

21 one total horsepower. And I think this may be able to

22 be addressed through a motors regulation for motors
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1 going on pumps because, really, that's the thing we

2 would want to affect is to get the variable-speed

3 capability or two- speed capability.

4 MR. POWERS: Okay. This is Chuck again. But

5 that is covered here with the pump that we call bare

6 pump plus driver plus -- it said any -- I can't

7 remember.

8 MR. FERNSTROM: It is, but we're not sure

9 how we're going to be setting regulations for pumps

10 with motors yet. Are we, Lucas?

11 MS. MAUER: This is Joanna. If they are

12 self-priming, then they are actually not included in

13 what we have talked about so far.

14 MR. HUBER: That is --

15 MR. POWERS: But not all are self- priming.

16 They have a basket strainer. They don't necessarily

17 have self-priming.

18 MALE SPEAKER: That's right. It's a whole

19 different --

20 MR. HUBER: A whole different deal.

21 MS. MAUER: Okay. Maybe they're --

22 MR. HUBER: The lot is many --
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1 (Simultaneous conversation.)

2 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay, folks. Sorry. Please

3 let's be a little more disciplined. We're getting

4 kind of sloppy here.

5 MR. POWERS: Yes. Okay.

6 MR. BROOKMAN: For the record, we want to

7 have a good, complete record. Chuck?

8 MR. POWERS: Okay. My understanding, Gary -

9 - and I've had it for a long time, and we got into,

10 company, with pool pumps and stuff like that. Well,

11 I'll back up. One is that there are single and

12 triple-phased. Secondly, a lot of them are composite.

13 Thirdly, in my opinion, the ones I've seen and the

14 ones we have been involved in, very few of them are

15 actually self-primers.

16 MR. FERNSTROM: Well, the ones that we

17 regulate are virtually all self-priming.

18 MR. POWERS: Really?

19 MR. FERNSTROM: I mean, I don't know how you

20 define self-priming, but it will lift the water.

21 MR. POWERS: Does it have what's called a

22 bucket in front of it, like a regular pump but now
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1 almost like a trashcan, what they call trashcan?

2 MR. FERNSTROM: Yes. They all have a leaf

3 strainer in front of them.

4 MR. POWERS: Yes. That's different than

5 --

6 MALE SPEAKER: That's different than self7 priming.

8 MR. POWERS: That's different than self9 priming.

10 MR. HUBER: That's not self --

11 MR. POWERS: That's not self-priming.

12 MR. FERNSTROM: This is Gary. You mean your

13 definition of self-priming does not cover the

14 situation where the pump, in effect, lifts the water

15 from a lower point up to the suction in order to get

16 the water flowing through the loop. All these pumps

17 have the capability of creating a vacuum and using the

18 pressure of the atmosphere to push the water up into

19 their suction.

20 MR. BROOKMAN: Al Huber and then to Greg.

21 MR. HUBER: Many, many of the pumps that we

22 manufacture today are not self-priming, but they will
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1 lift water.

2 MR. FERNSTROM: Okay. I learned something.

3 Thank you.

4 MR. HUBER: Well, if you take a fire pump,

5 it has to lift 15 feet at 150 percent of its rated

6 flow.

7 MR. FERNSTROM: So what --

8 MR. HUBER: So let me finish this so you'll

9 understand what a self-primer is. We consider a self10 primer -- and most of them have a flat built into it

11 at an angle, Gary, that blocks the body of the pump

12 off so it holds the water inside it. Okay? That's

13 what we consider a self- primer. And so when you do

14 that, you can start the pump back up again. It has

15 water in it, and it creates that vacuum. And then it

16 lifts the water. That is self-priming.

17 You know, I am owned by a self-priming

18 company. Okay? And I tease them all the time that

19 there is no such thing as self-priming because you

20 have to prime it the first time. It's just a fact.

21 Okay?

22 But that's what a self-primer is. And
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1 that's the way it operates. And that's what we're

2 talking about when we talk about self-primer.

3 Now, I own a pool, too. I had one just like

4 you're talking about. It was an end suction pump with

5 a basket strainer on the front of it. That's not a

6 self-primer.

7 MR. FERNSTROM: Okay. This is Gary. Thank

8 you so much, Al. I now agree with Chuck. None of

9 these pumps are self-priming.

10 (Laughter.)

11 MR. POWERS: I have an anomaly here today.

12 MR. BROOKMAN: That's good for you. Right,

13 Gary? That's good for you.

14 Greg? You're next in the queue. Greg?

15 MR. CASE: No. It was covered.

16 MR. POWERS: We have an anomaly here.

17 MR. BROOKMAN: Yes?

18 MR. POWERS: Both Steve and Gary have

19 rescinded back on something they said earlier today.

20 We are starting a new trend. And I'll throw another

21 anomaly out there.

22 MR. BROOKMAN: We should acknowledge that
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1 it's good for the negotiation process for people to

2 remain flexible.

3 MR. POWERS: Submersible pumps, by

4 definition, they're self-primers because they're

5 immersed in the fluid.

6 MR. FERNSTROM: Well, this is Gary again.

7 The full pumps are typically not submersible.

8 MR. POWERS: That's right.

9 MR. FERNSTROM: They may be below the water

10 level.

11 MR. POWERS: That's right.

12 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay.

13 MR. FERNSTROM: Thank you for that

14 clarification.

15 MR. BROOKMAN: Louis?

16 MR. STARR: This is Louis Starr with NEEA.

17 I guess there's kind of a bigger picture here.

18 Essentially California has regulations on pool pumps.

19 And it sounds like this rulemaking on pumps in general

20 is going to change all of those regulations.

21 Is it DOE's -- you know, I think I heard --

22 I forgot what her name is, but early on she said she
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1 didn't think this would preempt California's pool pump

2 rules. But that may have been premature. It sounds

3 like we're hearing something different now. And so I

4 would like to hear if that is still the case or if

5 that is changing?

6 MS. KOHL: So this is Betsy Kohl, DOE GC. I

7 don't think anything has changed. I mean, the basic -

8 - just as a point of clarification on the preemption,

9 it already exists, even before the federal standard

10 becomes effective.

11 But the way we read the California pool pump

12 regulations is that they impacted the motor. So right

13 now there's no preemption of their regulations from --

14 MR. BROOKMAN: Steve?

15 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Steve Rosenstock, EEI. But

16 since DOE is covering small electric motors, were any

17 of those motors ever used for pool pumps under the

18 small electric motor category?

19 MR. LIN: No.

20 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Because that goes from a

21 quarter to three horsepower. Just checking. Just

22 checking.
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1 MR. LIN: Different purpose.

2 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Thank you. General

3 purpose. Thank you.

4 MR. BROOKMAN: I didn't hear the answer to

5 the question.

6 MR. LIN: No.

7 MR. BROOKMAN: Thank you. Okay.

8 Well, there's one thing that we didn't do.

9 I don't believe we did it. We didn't have a

10 definition for sanitary pumps. And we didn't close on

11 that item. It may be that we're not able to do that

12 today. But I just thought I'd raise it again and see

13 if that is something that could be addressed. Greg?

14 MR. TOWSLEY: Greg Towsley, Grundfos. I

15 talked with Greg Case. And there is in EU 547 a

16 comment in their guideline that talked about hygienic

17 or sanitary pumps. I've taken that. And I'm looking

18 on Americanizing it. And then if I can get it before,

19 I will send it to Greg to take a look at at least.

20 And if not, we'll have it tomorrow.

21 MR. BROOKMAN: We could do it tomorrow.

22 MR. TOWSLEY: Yes.
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1 MR. BROOKMAN: It would be great. That

2 would be great. Okay. Good. I'll make a placeholder

3 for day two.

4 Paul?

5 MR. LIN: Sorry to bring this back to the

6 pool. So if we're saying that the pool stuff is all

7 non-self-priming end suction pumps, then what we're

8 talking here will eventually affect that product

9 category because that's in scope?

10 MR. HUBER: Yes, yes.

11 MR. LIN: Okay.

12 MR. FERNSTROM: This is Gary. For products

13 greater than one horsepower?

14 MR. HUBER: Yes, right.

15 MR. BROOKMAN: So far that's in scope, I

16 think; right, greater than one horsepower, non- self17 priming, and end suction?

18 MR. FERNSTROM: Like Chuck said, a lot of

19 these products are composite. And the manufacturers

20 are making the surfaces smoother. So the inherent

21 efficiency of these pumps is pretty good.

22 MR. BROOKMAN: Louis?
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1 MR. STARR: Louis Starr with NEEA. But I

2 thought basically if those rules are in place, if the

3 rules are currently in place in California, it doesn't

4 matter what they are, they are still the ones that

5 would be the prevailing ones that would go, regardless

6 of whether it's over one horse or not.

7 I mean, in other words, let's say California

8 has more stringent requirements than whatever we come

9 up with for this rulemaking. I'm assuming those would

10 be the ones that would regulate, but pool pumps get

11 put in, not what is the basis of the DOE rule, this

12 DOE rulemaking.

13 MALE SPEAKER: Not under preemption.

14 MS. KOHL: Repeat that question. I'm sorry.

15 Betsy Kohl.

16 MR. STARR: So right now California has

17 regulations for pool pumps over one horsepower that

18 regulate, you know, pool pumps. So if I'm a

19 contractor and I'm installing a pool pump in

20 California, whose regulations -- I'm installing a one

21 and a half-horsepower pool pump in California, whom do

22 I have to look for for direction in what the
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1 requirements are for installing that?

2 MS. KOHL: Well, for installing it?

3 MR. STARR: Well, the requirements that meet

4 Title 24.

5 MR. FERNSTROM: This is Gary. Betsy has

6 suggested that the California regulation really

7 affects the motor, not the pump. And, even though

8 it's not real, real clear, that's correct. You know,

9 their regulation specifies a certain kind of motor as

10 being on this pump.

11 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay.

12 MR. FERNSTROM: So that's how the resolution

13 might work out here.

14 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Yes, Chuck?

15 MR. POWERS: I also think when we're done

16 here, there's going to be an MEI forming a chart and

17 all the good stuff. And chances are those units

18 already exceed that. So, even though it may cover it,

19 it won't matter.

20 MR. FERNSTROM: I hope so. Well, this is

21 Gary. Just an observation. I have certainly learned

22 a lot here. One of the things I have learned is the
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1 pump standard probably will affect most of these pool

2 pumps that are over one horsepower. And if the states

3 want to keep their pool pump regulations, they're

4 going to have to restructure them a little bit so they

5 more clearly focus on the motor associated with the

6 pool pump, rather than the pump head.

7 MS. WILLIAMS: This is Alison. Can I just

8 ask a question? Do any of you manufacture pool pumps

9 that would have been reported in your end suction data

10 or like is that a whole other industry?

11 MR. HUBER: Well, no. Al Huber, Patterson.

12 We do not, but I gave you a list of 25 pump companies.

13 And they may very well.

14 MS. WILLIAMS: Okay.

15 MR. HUBER: So it is very clear. The

16 instructions are very clear. It was these parameters

17 --

18 MS. WILLIAMS: Yes.

19 MR. HUBER: -- that we voted yes on today.

20 So, to answer your question, if they manufacture them,

21 they will be there.

22 MS. WILLIAMS: They will be there. Great.
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1 MR. BROOKMAN: Will they be notated

2 separately?

3 MR. HUBER: No.

4 MR. BROOKMAN: No. Let me note that you may

5 not have seen at least three individuals, three

6 manufacturers, in the room raised their hands saying

7 they manufactured these pumps.

8 Gary?

9 MR. FERNSTROM: This is Gary. So, Alison,

10 there are one and a half million private residential

11 pools in California alone, which have filtration

12 pumps. And many of them also have other pool-related

13 pumps, like booster pumps for spas, sweeps, and that

14 sort of thing.

15 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay.

16 MS. WILLIAMS: Okay.

17 MR. BROOKMAN: I'm wondering what we should

18 do next. Yes? Yes? Okay. Lucas says we should go

19 for it.

20 MR. ADIN: Well, let me clarify. I didn't

21 actually say anything. I just held this up.

22 MR. BROOKMAN: That is what I took your
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1 meaning to be, precisely that.

2 MR. ADIN: More specifically, we should

3 return to that list and see if we can start looking at

4 some of those items that are still in yellow and

5 figure out what we are going to do about those.

6 MR. BROOKMAN: Yes. Then, once again, the

7 kind of logic here, presentation logic, is that the

8 items in yellow are predominantly, if not more than

9 predominantly, the HI proposed scope pumps --

10 MR. HUBER: No.

11 MR. BROOKMAN: No?

12 MR. HUBER: Green.

13 MR. BROOKMAN: Green. What did I say?

14 MR. HUBER: Yellow.

15 MR. BROOKMAN: I apologize. I meant to say

16 green. I meant to say green.

17 -- largely Lot 11. And the yellow items are

18 those pumps that have emerged subsequent to HI's

19 proposal, some of which came from the framework

20 meeting or comments thereafter and came from various

21 different sources.

22 And now what we'd like to consider is those
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1 items in yellow, any of which might be excluded at

2 this point. Discussion on that? Joanna?

3 MS. MAUER: Is there any update on whether

4 there is more data or will be more data?

5 MS. WILLIAMS: Alison. I'll jump in

6 whenever the -- we did not receive data from all of

7 the companies that had promised it to us, but HI has

8 volunteered to collect data from 25 pump companies

9 that they expect to receive March 15th. So there will

10 not be -- aside from circulators, there won't be

11 updated data until the next meeting for those pump

12 types.

13 MR. BROOKMAN: Does that mean you do have

14 some data for circulators?

15 MS. WILLIAMS: We have some circulators data

16 we can show.

17 MR. BROOKMAN: So you have it, and it is

18 ready to be shared?

19 MS. WILLIAMS: Yes.

20 MR. BROOKMAN: So that's another thing for

21 us to consider. Let me look at these other items in

22 yellow here. So I recall several individuals from the
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1 energy efficiency caucus last meeting saying that,

2 "Gee, the scale of many of these listed, even in the

3 preliminary numbers, suggest that they're big enough

4 that we need more data before we would undertake

5 excluding them." That is what I remember. But you can

6 change your mind. No? Okay. So, then, Steve

7 Rosenstock?

8 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Just a quick one. Just

9 looking down at the slides 14, 15, and 16, the double

10 suction numbers, you are still waiting on the revised

11 numbers for them, updated numbers?

12 MR. BROOKMAN: Yes. Wait until we get

13 there.

14 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Well, again, just --

15 MR. BROOKMAN: Fourteen, 15, 16?

16 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Yes. Just again, some of

17 these are falling under the Lot 11 plot that are in

18 the maybe. So I just said, you know, just trying to

19 look at some of the numbers associated with them.

20 MS. WILLIAMS: Yes. So this is Alison. We

21 plan to revise all of these numbers, hopefully prior

22 to the next meeting, based on the data HI is
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1 collecting for us.

2 MR. BROOKMAN: Which is in late March, by

3 the way. It is going to be here shortly.

4 Al Huber?

5 MR. HUBER: At our last annual meeting, we

6 prevailed upon the CEO for the pump companies to give

7 us this data. And right now we have 25 pump

8 companies. This is going to go to NEMA BIS because

9 it's a third party. And we're sending it to NEMA BIS

10 because some of the people were reluctant to send it

11 to the government and they don't have any

12 nondisclosure agreements with this group because they

13 weren't considered by this group originally. So we're

14 going to have that. And our hope is before the next

15 meeting, we will have all of that information because

16 we don't believe this information that we have seen.

17 So we should have that. It should be

18 analyzed by NEMA BIS. They will tell us how they

19 analyzed it, you know, how they did it. And it should

20 represent at least 80 percent of the market in the

21 United States. So it may have some load factoring

22 involved, but it will be somewhat limited because it
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1 is already going to consider a great deal of the

2 marketplace.

3 All of the major manufacturers were

4 participating. And so, you know, we hoped to have it

5 done, but we just didn't have enough time. Some of us

6 have already submitted and we sent a duplicate copy.

7 The ones had an NDA, we sent our duplicate copy to

8 them. So they have it. It's going to be in both

9 places. So it should correlate fairly well, I would

10 think.

11 MR. BROOKMAN: And, Al, just to clarify,

12 Alison said that the data is due back to you on the

13 15th?

14 MR. HUBER: It's due in to NEMA BIS on the

15 12th. They'll have to analyze it. It shouldn't take

16 them too long, we hope. But there's a lot to analyze.

17 I mean, this is huge because we had to do a lot of

18 data for the efficiencies. I mean, we had to go

19 through every pump and all efficiencies and all these

20 things. And we included everything that was in green

21 and everything that was in yellow.

22 And we also asked everybody to list five of
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1 their competitors in case we missed anybody. We also

2 sent a letter out to all of the pump manufacturers in

3 this country, asking them to participate. So we may

4 end up with more, but right now we've got 25. Alison

5 has a list of the companies that so far said they were

6 going to do this. She can share it with you if you

7 like.

8 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay.

9 MR. HUBER: So this data is not good. And I

10 think we all recognize that. And so we took it upon

11 ourselves to try to do something about it.

12 MR. FERNSTROM: So this is Gary. Thank you

13 very much.

14 MR. HUBER: Well, I twisted a lot of arms at

15 that meeting.

16 MR. BROOKMAN: No. Truthfully, Al, that was

17 a big effort and much appreciated. That really

18 advanced our efforts here. That's very good.

19 Now, returning to chart number 3, is there

20 anything to be said or done with respect to these

21 items in yellow at this point?

22 MR. POWERS: The radial split vertical,
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1 everyone that makes that product that I'm aware of

2 called them VS1 because there is no really clear,

3 clean definition. And the closest it comes to is VS1.

4 I just looked at ours to qualify it. I looked at a

5 couple of competitors' earlier, yesterday or the day

6 before, looking at that. And everybody tends to lean

7 towards the VS1.

8 MR. BROOKMAN: VS1?

9 MR. POWERS: VS1.

10 MR. BROOKMAN: And is that HI nomenclature?

11 MR. CASE: Yes.

12 MR. POWERS: That's also HI's.

13 MS. WILLIAMS: Okay. Yes. So on this chart

14 on page 12, but HI said they were going to check on

15 that. So you guys concur that this is really VS1.

16 MR. HANDZEL: VS1, yes.

17 MR. POWERS: You all right with that?

18 MR. HANDZEL: Yes.

19 MR. HUBER: It will be reported VS1.

20 MS. WILLIAMS: As VS1? Okay. Great. Thank

21 you.

22 MR. POWERS: Then we combine with the
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1 others.

2 MR. BROOKMAN: That's helpful.

3 MR. HANDZEL: Did you go up to the other one

4 that was green?

5 MS. WILLIAMS: Yes.

6 MR. HANDZEL: That's OH4?

7 MS. WILLIAMS: Okay. So this is -- okay.

8 MR. BROOKMAN: Someone told me that radial

9 split horizontal was very close to radial split

10 vertical because the green item and the yellow item

11 were quite closely aligned. I don't know what that

12 implies for their placement in yellow and green, but -

13 -

14 MR. POWERS: No. Our view from a VS8 is an

15 in-line casing diffuser. Radially split in multistage

16 with VS1 would not be that at all. It is not an in17 line. Remember, an in-line is where you're suspending

18 it within the piping frame.

19 MR. BROOKMAN: Yes.

20 MR. POWERS: It could be both, but I think

21 you're fine. But okay. Our experience has been one -

22 -
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1 MR. BROOKMAN: Charlie?

2 MR. CAPPELLINO: Charlie Cappellino, ITT. I

3 think one of the things that we clarified in our

4 survey that we did through HI is we added the word

5 "multistage" in front of "axial split" --

6 MR. POWERS: Right.

7 MR. CAPPELLINO: -- and "multistage" in

8 front of "radial split." That might not seem like

9 much, but it really clarifies for somebody who is

10 familiar with the product lines. And if you would go

11 over to the right, it's two-stage and then BB3s and

12 BB4s are multistage anyway. So it was just a

13 --

14 MR. BROOKMAN: With multistage, was it just

15 for radial split horizontal or all or also vertical?

16 MR. HUBER: For axial split and radial

17 split.

18 MR. CAPPELLINO: She's got it.

19 MR. POWERS: It's the way she's got it.

20 MR. HUBER: She's got it.

21 MS. WILLIAMS: Yes. I deleted the row and

22 combined it with the vertical row per their --
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1 MR. HUBER: Just so you know, we really

2 don't expect to see very much out of either one of

3 those.

4 MS. WILLIAMS: Okay.

5 MR. HUBER: We really don't.

6 MS. WILLIAMS: Are you getting the companies

7 that are big in the --

8 MR. HUBER: We're getting 25 pumps on the --

9 MS. WILLIAMS: I know, but it seems that was

10 a little bit special to --

11 MR. CAPPELLINO: We are getting --

12 MS. WILLIAMS: Yes. Okay.

13 MR. HUBER: We are getting some of them, I

14 think.

15 MS. WILLIAMS: Thank you.

16 MR. BROOKMAN: The logic is that the

17 companies, those companies, will not be responsive or

18 it's a small number or --

19 MR. HUBER: No. It's just that it's not a

20 pump that's used very often. It's just there's not

21 much usage of it, especially when you get into lower

22 horsepowers because the more stages you put on these
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1 things, you know, the horsepower goes up. And so the

2 horsepower would be a limited factor here. So I

3 suspect -- I mean, we just don't think that there are

4 going to be that many.

5 MS. WILLIAMS: Okay.

6 MR. HUBER: But we can wait and see.

7 MR. BROOKMAN: Right. So this is good.

8 MR. POWERS: Alison, you made a change

9 there. We use a vertical turbine, including RS-V

10 immersible. You won't have a VS2 in that category.

11 So you combined two of them there. You probably want

12 to leave them separate.

13 MS. WILLIAMS: Vertical turbine are both VS1

14 and VS2? Okay. And the immersibles are included in

15 VS1?

16 MR. POWERS: Are only VS1.

17 MR. HUBER: Only VS1.

18 MR. POWERS: Only VS1.

19 MS. WILLIAMS: Yes.

20 MR. POWERS: So you need to separate them

21 back up again.

22 MS. WILLIAMS: Are you sure?
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1 MR. HUBER: Yes.

2 MR. POWERS: Yes. I've never seen a double

3 suction.

4 MS. WILLIAMS: Right. But it doesn't have

5 to be both; right? I mean, the in-lines are not all,

6 I mean --

7 MR. POWERS: Well, it all comes down to what

8 we end up moving up the green or moving in the red if

9 they're separate and might find somebody --

10 MS. WILLIAMS: So you wouldn't want VS1 and

11 VS2 separate, not necessarily the immersible separate?

12 MR. POWERS: No, no. I'm going to restate

13 myself. The way you had it originally was good. You

14 made a change and did not say anything.

15 MS. WILLIAMS: So I guess my question is if

16 you decide to cover VS1s, that would include

17 automatically the immersibles or you are suggesting

18 you would maybe cover VS1 but exempt the --

19 MR. HUBER: It's going to be folded in

20 there. You're not going to be able to tell.

21 MR. POWERS: Well, the way I will say it is

22 see up above where you have multistage axial and
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1 double suction?

2 MS. WILLIAMS: Yes.

3 MR. HUBER: They're both BB1s? Same kind of

4 situation. It's the classification of the pump type.

5 Because of the HI and others, there's limited -- I am

6 going by the original sheet versus what is up there.

7 MR. HUBER: I understand that. In the

8 survey, we did not split it out.

9 MR. HANDZEL: The way they asked for it, we

10 didn't want to do it the way they asked for it.

11 MS. WILLIAMS: Okay. So, I mean, I --

12 MR. POWERS: Okay. So, anyway, we're

13 talking --

14 MS. WILLIAMS: -- think the way we asked for

15 it --

16 MR. POWERS: -- survey versus --

17 MS. WILLIAMS: -- is we did have a separate

18 category for it. We asked them to list the --

19 MR. HUBER: Let's double check.

20 MR. BROOKMAN: Hang on a second. Would you

21 like to do a brief caucus, Al?

22 MR. HUBER: We're just going to double check
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1 right now.

2 MS. WILLIAMS: Okay.

3 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay.

4 MR. HUBER: It won't take but a minute.

5 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay.

6 MR. HUBER: Well, --

7 MR. HANDZEL: Maybe.

8 MR. HUBER: -- maybe.

9 MS. WILLIAMS: Maybe a few.

10 MR. HUBER: We've got to look at the survey

11 and see how we asked the question.

12 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay.

13 MS. WILLIAMS: Yes. I'm pretty sure for our

14 end, we said list VS1 and VS2 or machine tool- type

15 products.

16 MR. HUBER: We try not to say what you asked

17 for.

18 MS. WILLIAMS: So yes because at the time,

19 we didn't know if it was a VS1 or not. So we wanted

20 to make sure we were getting the right thing.

21 MR. HUBER: We'll let you know --

22 MS. WILLIAMS: Okay.
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1 MR. HUBER: -- maybe.

2 (Pause.)

3 MR. HUBER: They are combined in our survey.

4 They are combined in our survey.

5 MR. POWERS: In their survey, but your

6 survey was separate.

7 MS. WILLIAMS: Okay. If they're combined in

8 your survey, then it's going to be hard to regulate

9 one but not the other analytically.

10 MR. HUBER: Right.

11 MR. HANDZEL: We could aggregate the data

12 and separate it because we asked for a column when we

13 asked them to indicate whether it was VS1 or VS2. So

14 we may be able to separate it out.

15 MS. WILLIAMS: You can separate VS1 and VS2,

16 but you can't separate the immersible section of VS1.

17 MR. HANDZEL: No.

18 MR. HUBER: No.

19 MS. WILLIAMS: Okay. So, I mean, Chuck has

20 expressed his interest that immersible be left

21 separate. But so are the rest of you proposing that

22 it just be rolled into the VS1 or how do you want to
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1 handle that?

2 MR. POWERS: Well, we may have another

3 complication.

4 MS. WILLIAMS: Okay.

5 MR. POWERS: Your survey, the latest one,

6 said RSV. And next to it, you put VS8 from what I'm

7 reading here.

8 MS. WILLIAMS: Is that wrong?

9 MR. POWERS: Well, yes. It would not be

10 VS8. So you might have confused, you know, people

11 sending you data, too.

12 MALE SPEAKER: Are you sure of that?

13 MR. POWERS: Yes. I'm looking at the sheet,

14 the instructions, right here.

15 MS. WILLIAMS: Nice. Nice to get.

16 MR. POWERS: These are your instructions

17 right here. You have VS8 next to RSV.

18 MS. WILLIAMS: Well, that's this RSV; right,

19 the in-line casing diffuser one? So we requested

20 separate lines for each of those because we requested

21 these all individually, not these, so that we could

22 aggregate.
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1 MR. HUBER: Yes. We did it separately on

2 the sheet here.

3 MR. BROOKMAN: So have you made the edits?

4 Did you think you --

5 MS. WILLIAMS: Oh, I'm not clear. I don't

6 think I got a response to that request.

7 MR. POWERS: It should be VS1.

8 MR. HUBER: Alison?

9 MR. BROOKMAN: Here we go. Al, please?

10 You're next. Al?

11 MR. HUBER: We believe we can sort on that

12 and give you that data.

13 MS. WILLIAMS: Okay. So separating out

14 immersibles?

15 MR. HUBER: Yes, yes.

16 MS. WILLIAMS: Okay.

17 MR. HUBER: We will instruct NEMA BIS to do

18 it if that's what you need.

19 MS. WILLIAMS: Okay. I split it out. So are

20 you guys having further discussion or are we done on

21 this stuff?

22 MR. HUBER: No. We're done.
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1 MS. WILLIAMS: Okay.

2 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Did she split it the

3 way you like it? Chuck?

4 MR. POWERS: Sorry?

5 MR. BROOKMAN: Did she get it the way you

6 want it to be?

7 MR. POWERS: Yes, yes, yes.

8 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. So this review, this

9 has been -- we have done a lot of clarifying here

10 already. Any additional thoughts on the items listed

11 here in yellow?

12 (No response.)

13 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. So you have something

14 else you would like to --

15 MR. ADIN: Well, unless we wanted to talk

16 about circulators.

17 MR. BROOKMAN: I think that we have time.

18 And I think Alison has some new data. So maybe we

19 should talk about circulators. And then we'll see

20 where it goes from there. Okay?

21 MS. WILLIAMS: Okay. So should I just jump

22 into the new data or just -- okay.
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1 MR. BROOKMAN: Do you think it needs some

2 setup, in addition to --

3 MS. WILLIAMS: So the setup is just that we

4 received circulator data, some in aggregate, some

5 performance data, from the major circulator

6 manufacturers. So we just updated our circulator

7 numbers, then did a preliminary energy savings

8 estimate for them.

9 MR. BROOKMAN: It's not in this packet.

10 MS. WILLIAMS: No, it's not in this packet.

11 I just did it on the plane last night.

12 MR. BROOKMAN: Yes.

13 MS. WILLIAMS: Okay. So based on how HI did

14 their original circulator survey, we broke it up into

15 1/25th to a quarter horsepower and then greater than a

16 quarter to 3 horsepower. So the majority of the

17 shipments are in the small ones. And there are about

18 90,000 above a quarter, for a total of 1.6 million,

19 which is about what we had last time also.

20 We ran constant full-load energy use at a

21 couple of different operating hours just to show the

22 range. 2,160 is what HI has suggested may be
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1 appropriate. So this is the annual constant full

2 load, energy in terawatt hours for a year of

3 shipments. So the total is approximately .46 terawatt

4 hours per year. So you can just see how it varies if

5 we decide later that maybe the operating hours is a

6 little low perhaps.

7 We have wanted to try to separate it into

8 hydronic heating and water applications, but we didn't

9 get enough people reporting and material type to

10 enable us to do that. So we can't refine operating

11 hours as well as we'd hoped.

12 Yes?

13 MR. STARR: Louis with NEEA. I just had a

14 question. I noticed the 2,160 and the 6,000 --

15 MS. WILLIAMS: Yes.

16 MR. STARR: -- for the total. It looks like

17 you've got the energy use at .46 and 1.28. I was just

18 thinking it would be roughly three times as much or is

19 that how it ranges out?

20 MR. POWERS: Well, you got the three. The 6

21 is 64 to 128. So that's why.

22 MS. WILLIAMS: It is three.
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1 MR. HUBER: It's close to three.

2 MR. POWERS: It's close to three I think in

3 the math; right?

4 MS. WILLIAMS: Or no. Okay. I did this on

5 a plane last night. It's possible it's off.

6 MR. POWERS: I think a better way to look at

7 it is --

8 MR. ROSENSTOCK: You're okay.

9 MS. WILLIAMS: It's okay?

10 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Yes. That's right, yes.

11 MS. WILLIAMS: Okay.

12 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Question?

13 MS. WILLIAMS: Yes?

14 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Another follow-up. I know

15 since the magic number right here is about one

16 horsepower, any idea how that 90,000, how many might

17 be greater, you know, 1.0 to 3.0, horsepower, again,

18 just for discussion?

19 MS. WILLIAMS: I do not have enough

20 disaggregated data to report that.

21 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Okay.

22 MR. HUBER: So you know that we don't track
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1 it that way.

2 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Okay.

3 MR. HUBER: So it's difficult for us to

4 --

5 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Right.

6 MR. HUBER: -- try to come up with it.

7 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Yes. I was only asking

8 just because the one horsepower is --

9 MR. HUBER: Yes. It's not that we're trying

10 to hide it. We just --

11 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Oh, no. Of course.

12 MR. HUBER: We just don't know.

13 MS. WILLIAMS: We can tell you what the

14 average, of course, wattage is, which won't tell you

15 the answer but may provide some clue.

16 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Average wattage at full

17 load or part load?

18 MS. WILLIAMS: At full load.

19 MR. ROSENSTOCK: At full load?

20 MS. WILLIAMS: Yes. So Dan is looking that

21 up.

22 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Okay. Average within that
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1 range or average in the whole range?

2 MS. WILLIAMS: We're going to tell you the

3 average in the whole, in the 1/25th to 3 horsepower.

4 I mean, I just can't tell you specifically what is

5 above one because we don't have enough manufacturers

6 that reported that information.

7 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Again, Steve Rosenstock,

8 EEI. That is fine, but, just again just in terms of

9 because we have that one horsepower minimum right now

10 as a parameter, that is the only reason I was asking.

11 That is the only reason. And then that way it kind

12 of, you know --

13 MS. WILLIAMS: Okay. So the average wattage

14 for the one-quarter to three horsepower is 630 watts?

15 MR. ROSENSTOCK: 630. Probably the average

16 is still one horsepower less than I would -- again, I

17 don't know what the efficiency level is going to be

18 but --

19 MS. WILLIAMS: Yes.

20 MR. ROSENSTOCK: -- right around one

21 horsepower is the average, I would guess, for that

22 wattage looking at this, maybe a little less. Again, I
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1 don't know what the efficiency is, but for the

2 efficiency --

3 MS. WILLIAMS: That's wire power. Steve,

4 that's wire power. 630 watts is --

5 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Gotcha.

6 MS. WILLIAMS: -- the draw. Yes.

7 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Gotcha. So 844 is the --

8 okay.

9 MR. BROOKMAN: Louis. Steve, do you want to

10 comment? Come up here and get close so we're on the

11 record.

12 MR. THOMPSON: Just a point of

13 clarification. These numbers represent CP1, 2, and 3?

14 MS. WILLIAMS: Yes.

15 MR. THOMPSON: So they're wet rotor

16 circulators. They're two-piece mechanical sealed

17 pumps. They're three-piece mechanical sealed

18 circulators. The wet rotor side is ECM and non- ECM.

19 And the wattage power consumption were all based on --

20 at least what we did, were all based on the pumps

21 running at -- that's the maximum --

22 MS. WILLIAMS: Yes.
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1 MR. THOMPSON: -- wattage these things are

2 capable of pulling on a power grid. So it doesn't

3 take into account running at the right hand or left

4 hand --

5 MR. ROSENSTOCK: It's a full load. It's a

6 full load.

7 MR. THOMPSON: -- for the BEP. You know,

8 three-speed circulators are running at speed three,

9 ECM circulators running at a backup speed. So in my

10 mind, this is the worst or the most they're ever going

11 to draw.

12 MS. WILLIAMS: Right.

13 MR. THOMPSON: The key here is they are all

14 three categories?

15 MS. WILLIAMS: Yes, that's right.

16 MR. HANDZEL: And, Steve, if you could just

17 explain the 2,160 hours that HI used when we did our

18 survey was an aggregate number for plumbing and

19 recirculation applications as well as hydronic heating

20 based on intermittent service throughout a heating

21 season period. You might remember -- Al has got me

22 looking for it, but you might remember more
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1 specifically than that.

2 MR. BROOKMAN: So that was Mark. Now Steve?

3 Did you want to follow on?

4 MR. THOMPSON: Steve with TACO, Thompson

5 with TACO. I'll try to follow protocol here, too. The

6 2,160 for an HVAC application, if memory serves me

7 correctly, it was HVAC system, either heating or

8 cooling, running 6 months a year and operating for 6

9 hours a day every day.

10 MR. ROSENSTOCK: That was 2,160 divided by

11 365. We're talking like 6 hours a day all year.

12 MR. THOMPSON: So that would be the domestic

13 hot water recirc maybe. Okay.

14 MR. HANDZEL: Yes. It was an aggregate of

15 it, I remember, but I'm trying to think --

16 MR. THOMPSON: That's how I calculated it

17 out, though.

18 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Yes.

19 MR. THOMPSON: So it was based on so many

20 hours a day. In a recirc application, we're taking a

21 part seasonal piece. So it's not operating for the

22 full year. Domestic hot water, obviously you're
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1 running for 12 months.

2 MR. BROOKMAN: Louis?

3 MR. STARR: Yes. On that 2,160, I think

4 those numbers are -- we think that studies the

5 residential, I think. And that seems right for an

6 HVAC system in heating mode. So they seem the same in

7 that. Those numbers seem fine.

8 See, the question I -- I forgot the question

9 I was going to ask. I don't remember now. So --

10 MS. WILLIAMS: Do you want me to keep --

11 MR. STARR: Actually, now I remember what it

12 is. We were thinking about -- I was talking about the

13 terawatts down there. And so converting that into --

14 DOE likes to think in terms of quads. And I know that

15 since you all do that, is that coming up?

16 MS. WILLIAMS: Yes, I have it.

17 MR. STARR: Okay. Well, we'll just wait,

18 then.

19 MS. WILLIAMS: So --

20 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Well, before you go to

21 another slide --

22 MS. WILLIAMS: No. I was just going to
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1 finish this slide.

2 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Oh. Go ahead. Okay. Go

3 ahead. Go ahead.

4 MS. WILLIAMS: Okay. So the percent

5 variable-speed shipments, this is the aggregate. This

6 may be changing over time. This is a snapshot of one

7 year. And this does not include multi-speed

8 circulators.

9 So, then, to do potential savings, we

10 currently have only done it full load. We looked at

11 the rated wattage of an ECM that replaces equivalent

12 horsepower AC induction motor and came up with about

13 40 percent on average savings for the less than a

14 quarter and 25 percent for the greater than a quarter.

15 So, using the .46 terawatt hours, we can save

16 potentially .13 terawatt hours for the small ones, .03

17 for the larger ones, for a total of .16. So just

18 doing a quick DOE-type estimate, I took 30 years of

19 shipments with an assumed 5-year life, 2.5 site- to20 source conversion factor, which gives you

21 approximately .2 quads.

22 MR. BROOKMAN: Louis?
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1 MR. STARR: So the life of a pump is five

2 years?

3 MS. WILLIAMS: So we can adjust this. For

4 circulator pumps, we understand it's probably more

5 like seven, but for ECMs, it may be more like three.

6 And so we just took a sort of an average in the middle

7 to do this general estimate.

8 MR. STARR: Circulators only last seven

9 years, not very --

10 MR. HUBER: Well, you know, you have to make

11 money.

12 (Laughter.)

13 MR. STARR: Wow. I was thinking they --

14 okay. Well, I guess it depends on which brand and all

15 kind of stuff. Okay.

16 MS. WILLIAMS: Yes. So, I mean, there's a

17 number of assumptions in here; right, the site- to18 source factor, the lifetime. So this is just a rough

19 like ballpark estimate to get put in context with

20 other rulemakings.

21 MR. BROOKMAN: Steve Rosenstock?

22 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Steve Rosenstock, EEI. And,
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1 again, I'm just going to throw some round numbers out.

2 Again, using that one to 200 horsepower that's in the

3 parameter -- I know with the shaft horsepower, it's

4 going to be different from this. But suppose that --

5 I'm going to just throw out a number. If it's above

6 one horsepower, let's say it's a third of that, a

7 third of the middle column. You know, under possibly

8 the current parameters, that is the number you are

9 talking about in this category. Divide those numbers

10 by three in the middle. That's what you're talking

11 about possibly under the current --

12 MS. WILLIAMS: Under the current --

13 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Under the current

14 parameters.

15 MS. WILLIAMS: Which do not apply to

16 circulators.

17 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Right, but I'm just saying,

18 though, you know, they're out there right now for all

19 of the other pumps. But, again, you know, if that

20 same parameter were used for this, that is what we

21 would be talking about.

22 MS. MAUER: So this is Joanna. I think if
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1 we are going to include circulators, we would want to

2 talk about different parameters for circulators. And

3 I think that is why we specified that the parameters

4 we were voting on earlier were only applied to the

5 proposed HI, not to circulators. So I don't know that

6 we want to talk about a one-horsepower limit right

7 now.

8 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Right. Okay. And the

9 other thing is obviously, you know, I think, as Gary

10 was saying, this is primarily a residential product.

11 So that there is that issue of --

12 MS. MAUER: So this is Joanna. I think that

13 Lucas clarified that that is not an issue in this

14 rulemaking. It doesn't matter whether it's primarily

15 used in residential or commercial settings. A pump is

16 a pump.

17 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Okay. I'm just -- well,

18 all I can say, though, but the thing is, like, for

19 example, there is -- we know the products have been

20 split out: commercial refrigeration versus

21 residential refrigerators. Sometimes there can't be a

22 split.
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1 MS. MAUER: So this is Joanna. Yes, that's

2 true in that case, but this is I think a very

3 different situation.

4 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Okay.

5 MR. ADIN: The more analogous situation is

6 that for these products, it's more like plumbing

7 products, which are defined in the statute as being

8 consumer products. A lot of toilets are obviously

9 used in commercial applications. Pumps were -- the

10 style in the statute is commercial product, but this

11 does not preclude pumps used in residential

12 applications. Right? Yes.

13 MS. KOHL: Betsy Kohl from DOE. It's the

14 definition in 6311.2 is the definition of industrial.

15 It's to any significant extent distributed in commerce

16 for industrial or commercial use. And it's of a type.

17 The pump is the type. And the pump is distributed to

18 a significant extent in commercial use. So if there

19 is some subset that is used in residential, the

20 statute doesn't care. And we have had that position

21 in battery chargers since --

22 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Steve Rosenstock, EEI
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1 again. Just to follow up, even if 99 percent of the

2 circulators were sent to residential --

3 MS. KOHL: That's correct.

4 MR. ROSENSTOCK: -- it wouldn't matter?

5 MS. KOHL: No. Not under the statute, no.

6 Betsy.

7 MR. BROOKMAN: Louis?

8 MR. STARR: Louis Starr with NEEA. Well, one

9 thing about the pumps is that they do have a three10 year warranty on them. And usually pumps last longer

11 than a warranty. So I kind of take issue with that

12 five years, but even just saying five years, do these

13 things pay back in their lifetime the cost

14 differential between the incremental costs and going

15 from a regular motor to an ECM motor and you get a

16 certain amount of savings at 2,160 hours? What was

17 the rough payback on just a simple payback?

18 MS. WILLIAMS: So we have not received data.

19 Well, maybe. Okay. So we requested data on the cost

20 of AC and cost of ECM. And I'm not sure we have it

21 from enough manufacturers yet.

22 MR. BROOKMAN: Al Huber?
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1 MR. HUBER: I will try to convene the

2 circulator manufacturers tonight and see if we can

3 come up with that delta for you.

4 MR. HANDZEL: A lot of payback questions.

5 MR. HUBER: I mean, to answer your payback

6 question.

7 MR. HANDZEL: I mean, it's got to pay back

8 in the lifetime with equipment or then it doesn't make

9 any sense; right?

10 MR. HUBER: It doesn't make any sense;

11 right. So do you want to split between one-half and a

12 quarter like that and quarter and three or -- okay.

13 MR. STARR: I would say 1/25th.

14 MR. HUBER: The 1/25th and the 3?

15 MR. STARR: Yes.

16 MR. HUBER: Okay.

17 MR. BROOKMAN: Joanna?

18 MR. HUBER: I'll try to do that tonight for

19 you and have it tomorrow.

20 MS. MAUER: So we certainly appreciate that

21 and any information on cost or manufacturers, but I

22 was also wondering whether DOE is conducting its own
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1 cost estimate, as it would typically do in a

2 rulemaking.

3 MS. WILLIAMS: Yes. I mean, since these

4 haven't been proposed for coverage yet, currently all

5 we have done is request data from manufacturers, as

6 opposed to spending a lot of effort yet on them. So

7 if it's something that after the manufacturers provide

8 you data tomorrow, that there are still outstanding

9 items that we need to look into, we can certainly do

10 that.

11 MS. MAUER: This is Joanna. And I would

12 just want to make sure that we're looking at the real

13 cost and not today's price. So just --

14 MS. WILLIAMS: I think that you guys are

15 going to report costs; right, not price, the cost

16 difference?

17 MR. HUBER: We can do it both ways. No, I

18 don't think so.

19 MS. WILLIAMS: Right.

20 MR. HUBER: I don't think I can do that. I

21 can do price on that. We're not going to share with

22 each other costs. I promise you that.
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1 MS. WILLIAMS: Good point.

2 MR. HUBER: Actually, we're not going to

3 share --

4 MR. HANDZEL: Yes.

5 MR. HUBER: -- probably the price, but we'll

6 try to come up with --

7 MR. HANDZEL: An average.

8 MR. HUBER: What we're going to do is say,

9 "What is your delta?" --

10 MS. WILLIAMS: Okay.

11 MR. HUBER: -- and get that. Okay? Between

12 --

13 MS. WILLIAMS: Delta on cost or delta on

14 price?

15 MR. HUBER: It's all price.

16 MR. WEINTRAUB: Just to clarify --

17 MR. BROOKMAN: Yes?

18 MR. WEINTRAUB: Dan Weintraub, Navigant. So

19 we did request that data that would allow us to do

20 cost. And I think that is something that would be

21 worth hopefully the manufacturers putting effort into

22 picking that with something other than including it in
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1 the scope to get all of that deep data from them and

2 us to do it ourselves. We did not receive enough

3 aggregate to do that analysis based on cost

4 aggregating and keeping confidential the data.

5 MR. BROOKMAN: Mark?

6 MR. HANDZEL: And, just to reiterate -- Mark

7 Handzel from Xylem -- you know, there are some issues

8 with this because, really, if you look at the

9 circulator manufacturers, you know, there are only a

10 couple that really are actively selling ECM circulator

11 products on the market that could give you those

12 costs.

13 As I think you guys know who visited me in a

14 recent trade show, our line is just coming into place

15 on larger sizes. So we are just getting into the cost

16 data.

17 You know, I think our friends at TACO buy a

18 product from another supplier. So they probably can't

19 break the motor out because they buy a pump and a

20 motor.

21 So the data you are asking for may not be

22 obtainable. So I just wanted to bring that down.
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1 MR. HUBER: Al Huber, Patterson. So

2 everybody understands, this is -- I don't want to say

3 it's brand new technology, but it's brand new to the

4 pump industry. And that's probably why we don't know

5 as much about it or have so much to --

6 MR. HANDZEL: Especially in North America.

7 MR. HUBER: We are going to try with what we

8 have. And so I'll convene the two that are selling it

9 and let them give me as an arbitrator --

10 MR. BROOKMAN: If you want me to meet with

11 you, I'll do that.

12 MR. HUBER: You'll do it?

13 MR. BROOKMAN: Yes.

14 MR. HUBER: Well, we'll try to get you

15 something.

16 MR. BROOKMAN: Steve, go ahead.

17 MR. THOMPSON: The formula is relatively

18 simple. It's hours operations times cost, average

19 cost, of electricity in the United States. I think

20 the industry is pretty much sealed in on 11 cents a

21 kilowatt and then the balance of the calculations

22 determining how much energy would be used over the
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1 2,150 hours with a standard AC circulator versus an

2 ECM circulator with various control strategies. And

3 that's the cost side of how much power, how many

4 dollars of electrical energy you are saving using a

5 high-efficiency circulator.

6 From a cost standpoint, it is the end user

7 that is paying for the electricity. So, at least us,

8 what we do is we take the consumers' estimated cost of

9 a standard AC circulator versus an ECM circulator.

10 And there are some relatively good ballpark consistent

11 numbers that are pretty close to that.

12 MS. WILLIAMS: Okay.

13 MR. THOMPSON: So, you know, it will take a

14 couple of markups and all that kind of stuff, but the

15 consumer is paying for the electricity if the consumer

16 is buying the circulator.

17 Going back to how many years these things

18 run, because it's all over the map because they go

19 into such various different applications at different

20 wire conditions and all that kind of stuff, the

21 submersible well, the residential submersible well,

22 pump guys, for example, use an average life of -- it's
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1 seven to ten years, I think, in that range. So I

2 would be fairly comfortable by saying a circulator

3 would probably fall into that same range as well, but

4 it ain't three years. And it's going to be longer

5 than our warranty, at least ours anyway, Mark.

6 (Laughter.)

7 MR. THOMPSON: That might give you a little

8 insight on --

9 MR. BROOKMAN: So let me restate for the

10 record what just happened there.

11 (Laughter.)

12 MR. BROOKMAN: Thanks for that, Steve. That

13 is helpful.

14 Do you have other --

15 MS. WILLIAMS: That's all the data I have.

16 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. And I appreciate Al's

17 data-gathering request or for tonight.

18 MR. HANDZEL: Al, just to clarify, that 11

19 cents a kilowatt, I'll send you the table. There's a

20 Department of Commerce number that we use from a table

21 for the average residential cost of electricity. So

22 that's where that number came from. And it was
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1 actually in the original HI --

2 MS. WILLIAMS: Yes.

3 MR. HANDZEL: -- circulator survey from a

4 year and a half ago.

5 MS. WILLIAMS: I mean, this whole thing is

6 ballpark.

7 MR. HANDZEL: I know it is.

8 MS. WILLIAMS: So I'm not terribly worried -

9 -

10 MR. HANDZEL: Yes. We tried to be as

11 scientific as possible.

12 MS. WILLIAMS: -- about getting that number.

13 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Good. So, then, based

14 on this presentation, clearly there's a lot more

15 information to be gathered if we're lucky, if we're

16 very lucky. Comments on how this influences you're

17 thinking on circulators? Steve Rosenstock?

18 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Alison, are there other

19 slides or is this the --

20 MS. WILLIAMS: No.

21 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Okay. I'll just say I went

22 back to slide 16 because I'm a numbers geek. And I
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1 looked at your annuals. Again, just to give everybody

2 a perspective, just looking at the Lot 11 pumps I

3 believe are in the Yes category already, based on this

4 preliminary estimate, the total just for Lot 11, not

5 Lot 11 plus, ranges from 6.3 to 9.46 terawatt hours as

6 a reference point. And obviously there is no

7 potential energy savings in this one, but, again, that

8 is the number that is kind of there right now. And

9 then you can look at the circulators in terms of what

10 the -- that range is .46 to 1.28, just to show those

11 national ranges to people.

12 MR. BROOKMAN: Chuck?

13 MR. POWERS: Yes. Just a note. There was a

14 study done on the EU group on circulators. And,

15 reading from it, they put together several people to

16 analyze the situation before they made their final

17 decision. I'll read a paragraph.

18 MR. BROOKMAN: Before you do -- and we heard

19 previously in the last couple of meetings that use on

20 circulators, the usage patterns, are different in the

21 --

22 MR. POWERS: That's right. That's right. I
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1 agree. But, just to help the context here, so to go

2 back, Alison, to your chart --

3 MS. WILLIAMS: The red one.

4 MR. HANDZEL: The circulator numbers.

5 MR. POWERS: The circulator.

6 MS. WILLIAMS: Oh.

7 MR. POWERS: Just the context. So we're

8 showing here a savings of .13 right if I'm seeing that

9 right, 1.5 million pump. So here they say, "The total

10 annual sales of circulators in Europe in scope is 14

11 million." So just bear with me. So you're going from

12 1.6 to the European arena of 14 million. That's

13 within scope. And the power consumption is 64

14 terawatt.

15 Now, if everybody's constant, what I also

16 have the guys do for weighing terms is for

17 generalities to give this some meaning, 10 terawatts

18 is the annual output of a large power station, 10. If

19 you ran a 1,000-megawatt station for a year, that's

20 about 10 terawatts; right, so just perspective; right?

21 So their study, those 14 million annual

22 consumption, was 64 terawatt. Okay?
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1 MR. HANDZEL: Terawatt hours?

2 MR. POWERS: Terawatt hours. About half of

3 that is water pumps, so 32. The energy savings by

4 cutting off, they go into classes, A, B, C, and D.

5 And below is about five terawatts. So they said that

6 bunch down there, class D, you know --

7 MR. BROOKMAN: That's the small ones?

8 MR. POWERS: -- don't worry about it. Yes.

9 MR. HANDZEL: That's the official ones.

10 MR. POWERS: Yes, right.

11 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay.

12 MR. POWERS: And they go, the market they

13 restrict it to is class A. Energy savings will be

14 about 40. Okay? This is a very high percentage

15 because there is a technology step using permanent

16 magnet motors and variable-speed control and greatly

17 exceeds the savings potential for water pumps. It

18 should be noted that in Lot 11 studies, circulators

19 are considered as complete pump sets, which allows the

20 technology to be considered -- and I think we talked

21 about that before for water pumps -- versus water

22 pumps only where the hydraulics were included. And,
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1 therefore, small efficiency improvements would be

2 required. So just a relative step here. In Europe,

3 it's like way up here. And if this is really .13

4 terawatt hours, it's quite small.

5 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay.

6 MR. POWERS: Again, if the numbers -- I'm

7 just reading from what they were showing in the study.

8 And this was an independent group that they put

9 together. I'm just, you know --

10 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Okay.

11 MR. POWERS: And the only thing that we can

12 go on the basis of, the 14 million versus the 1.6, I'm

13 not going to qualify the rest of it. It's a huge

14 difference.

15 MS. WILLIAMS: Is that energy use for a year

16 of shipments or for the stock?

17 MR. POWERS: No. They're saying the total

18 consumption of 14 million was 64 terawatts per annum,

19 about half of that for water pumps in scope. So the

20 water pumps they're focused on was about 32 terawatt

21 hours.

22 MR. BROOKMAN: Lucas?
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1 MR. ADIN: I think the questions she's

2 asking, Chuck, does that number represent --

3 MR. HANDZEL: An installed base for --

4 MR. ADIN: Right. Is that the installed

5 base of all pumps in use --

6 MR. HANDZEL: Yes.

7 MR. ADIN: -- or your shipments?

8 MR. POWERS: Yes. I don't know by what this

9 is reading. I don't know. The total annual sales.

10 So that's shipments.

11 MR. BROOKMAN: Sixty-four million?

12 MR. POWERS: No, no. Fourteen million

13 pumps.

14 MR. BROOKMAN: Thank you.

15 MR. HANDZEL: Versus the 1.6.

16 MR. POWERS: Sixty-four million --

17 MR. HANDZEL: 1.6.

18 MR. POWERS: -- versus the 1.6.

19 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Lucas, go ahead.

20 MR. ADIN: No. I --

21 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Gary, please?

22 MR. FERNSTROM: This is Gary. I just would
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1 like to make the observation that in a lot of these

2 energy efficiency opportunities, at least for us, the

3 way we look at it is not so much the magnitude of the

4 opportunity. For sure, the magnitude is much greater

5 in Europe than it may be here, but the cost6 effectiveness of it. So the question is, you know,

7 what do you get for what it costs? And I think we're

8 prepared to make an argument that, even though we

9 don't have the sales and energy use that Europe does,

10 this may be a pretty darned cost-effective

11 opportunity. And in the next couple of meetings here,

12 we will play that out and find out whether it is or

13 not.

14 MR. BROOKMAN: Louis?

15 MR. STARR: Louis Starr with NEEA. And

16 already I know since they only last five years, they

17 must be cost-effective or they wouldn't sell them in

18 the market; right? Nobody would buy something, spend

19 more money on it than not have it last the lives of

20 the item that you bought. So I would think we were at

21 least 20 percent in the cost-effectiveness.

22 MR. BROOKMAN: Bob?
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1 MR. BARBOUR: Bob Barbour with TACO. Let's

2 keep in mind they haven't been available that long in

3 this market, at least from the majority of us. Some

4 people have had it, but it hasn't been that widely

5 spread throughout the marketplace yet to even justify

6 that statement that it might have been --

7 MR. STARR: Well, I mean, if you design it;

8 right, you assume that you intend for them to last.

9 In other words, if you're bringing a product to

10 market, you would expect that it be cost-effective in

11 its lifetime, I would think. In other words, if you

12 put something out there and it's an up sale from your

13 base model, you would expect that there is a cost14 effective reason for the customer to buy that thing.

15 In other words, he is going to save more energy over,

16 you know, the lifetime of the product. In other

17 words, the actual extra dollar cost makes up in the

18 energy he saves.

19 MR. BARBOUR: All I'm saying is that -- this

20 is Bob Barbour again. All I'm saying is that I am not

21 sure we know the exact life cycle of that product at

22 this point.
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1 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Useful. That's

2 helpful.

3 So additional thoughts, comments based on

4 the circulator data and your experience?

5 (No response.)

6 MR. BROOKMAN: Nothing additional? Okay.

7 Gary?

8 MR. FERNSTROM: This is Gary. I think the

9 energy-saving estimate is a little lower than what it

10 might actually be, but I'll be sharing some

11 information that goes to that.

12 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Great. Let me note

13 that we have made great progress and we have really

14 covered a lot already today. I am wondering what is

15 still in the hopper for us to take up. For example, I

16 am wonderful if we should think about test methods

17 briefly.

18 MR. FERNSTROM: So, Doug, this is Gary

19 again. I can share the data that I've got from our

20 testing if you want to do that.

21 MR. BROOKMAN: That would be great if you

22 are willing to do that if you are comfortable with
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1 doing that now.

2 MR. FERNSTROM: I'd make two or three

3 caveats. Ordinarily I would be very prepared to

4 present this data. And I am not so prepared. So you

5 will have to work with me on it a little bit. And I am

6 going on 36 hours since I last slept. But I think it

7 is interesting, nonetheless.

8 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay.

9 MR. FERNSTROM: So let me plug this in and

10 show you what we found out.

11 MR. BROOKMAN: That's great. We may need to

12 do the data stick because we unplugged this.

13 MR. FERNSTROM: You unplugged the monitor?

14 MR. BROOKMAN: It's all secured and all of

15 that. Here's one right here.

16 MR. FERNSTROM: All right. It's going to

17 take me a minute.

18 MR. BROOKMAN: Everybody should just stand

19 up and stretch a little bit, especially those who have

20 only slept not in 36 hours.

21 (Pause.)

22 MR. FERNSTROM: Okay. So this is Gary. I
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1 showed you last time the test facility that we set up

2 at our engineering research lab in San Ramon. So far

3 we have tested seven of these pumps. These are very

4 preliminary results. And we haven't really vetted

5 them yet. So I'm not going to leave this with you,

6 but we will be preparing this information for about 20

7 or so circulator pumps. And we will be leaving it

8 with you.

9 This may be an unfamiliar presentation for

10 you. What we wanted to do was look at the permanent

11 magnet products with the solid lines and the induction

12 motor products with the dashed lines in terms of how

13 many gallons these pumps circulate per watt hour of

14 energy consumed.

15 And I think what we are really paying for

16 here in hydronic heating systems and hot water

17 recirculation systems is getting a certain number of

18 gallons pumped per watt hour of energy used. And the

19 more gallons we get per watt hour, the more efficient

20 our pumping system and the more heat we circulate or

21 transfer.

22 So we have plotted these graphs for three
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1 different speeds. The red shows the maximum speed.

2 The blue shows the intermediate speed. And the

3 orangeish color or yellowish color on the projector

4 shows the low speed.

5 And what you can see is categorically the PM

6 motor pumps more water per watt hour consumed than the

7 induction motor. And you get significant more watt

8 hours or water pumped at low speed than you do at the

9 maximum speed. So if we really want to get the best

10 we can out of these products, we are going to be using

11 ones that have PM motors and endeavoring to get them

12 to operate at the lowest speed consistent with the

13 heat transfer that we need to get.

14 So are there questions about this slide and

15 this presentation? Go ahead, Al.

16 MR. HUBER: Al Huber, Patterson. I was just

17 a little curious about the blue curve. The solid line

18 is the one that is the PM motor. Is that correct?

19 MR. FERNSTROM: The solid line is the PM

20 motor, yes.

21 MR. HUBER: Okay. So it's pumping more

22 gallons per minute per -- well, you've got flow at the
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1 bottom; right?

2 MR. FERNSTROM: Yes. We have flow rate at

3 the bottom just to give an indication of how hard

4 these pumps are working. And we have a measure of

5 efficiency on the vertical axis, which is how many

6 gallons we pump per hour, per watt hour.

7 MR. HUBER: I have to think about that. When

8 you compare the two pumps, what I would call the cost

9 of speed and the variable speed -- which would be the

10 PM motor; right?

11 MR. FERNSTROM: Yes.

12 MR. HUBER: Is the pump itself the same

13 pump?

14 MR. FERNSTROM: Well --

15 MR. HUBER: I mean, is the wet end exactly

16 the same wet end?

17 MR. HANDZEL: Are you just switching the

18 motors?

19 MR. HUBER: Are you just switching the

20 motors or --

21 MR. FERNSTROM: Well, these are products

22 that we bought in the market. So we haven't switched
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1 the motors. And I don't know and can't tell you

2 products they were other than they were 1/25th

3 horsepower circulators, one of which was an induction

4 product that offered us 3-speed capability and one of

5 which was a PM product that offered us 3-speed

6 capability. And we compared the two of them on here

7 in this manner.

8 MR. HUBER: I can't imagine a situation

9 where the same wet end would be more efficient run by

10 -- would pump more gallons per minute than one in a

11 PM. I mean, that doesn't -- I just can't envision

12 that.

13 MR. BROOKMAN: Chuck?

14 MR. POWERS: Yes. This is Chuck. What

15 they've done is -- you can think of it two ways --

16 one, that diagram. And then you go by the speed.

17 There's no head on here; right?

18 MR. HUBER: Right.

19 MR. POWERS: So the head is by the square;

20 right? So just going just one by one, they take the

21 red. The part that is interesting is they are all

22 consistent in a sense. The solid line is the PM.
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1 They're going to be more effective for kW ratings;

2 right, because it's more efficient; right, but in a

3 dotted line the less.

4 MR. HUBER: That's true.

5 MR. POWERS: What is interesting here is the

6 only one when you get out on the curve that the PM

7 actually drops off. And I think what that is is PM is

8 unique. When you get out to overload them, they

9 actually become less efficient when you overload them.

10 MR. HUBER: Yes.

11 MR. POWERS: So that value makes sense at

12 the fastest speed; right, because they had the speed

13 sensitivity.

14 Then what Gary is they took that same unit

15 my assumption is because if you look at the run-out

16 here and you take that peak line, it makes sense. So

17 then you go to the blue. And, again, the PM's the

18 more efficient unit. And the dashed line would be

19 less. So it's consistent. What's unique, though,

20 again, is if you were to run the yellow all the way

21 up, if you had a system that could do it, the dotted

22 yellow and the solid match
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1 --

2 MR. HUBER: They cross, yes. They would.

3 MR. POWERS: -- the same as you did here.

4 Now, you crossed. All right? And so if you drew a

5 line when you do it mathematically -- right, Al?

6 MR. HUBER: Yes.

7 MR. POWERS: Really, what you would do --

8 and, Charlie, you know -- you would draw a line right

9 here.

10 MR. CAPPELLINO: Yes.

11 MR. POWERS: And then somewhere up here,

12 --

13 MR. HUBER: That's where those two would

14 come.

15 MR. POWERS: -- these two would hit if you

16 run it off the system. Right?

17 MR. HUBER: Right.

18 MR. POWERS: So this makes sense. This

19 makes sense. And basically when he is going down

20 twice the square on speed; right, you are actually

21 more efficient, even though you're pumping less,

22 --
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1 MR. HUBER: Right.

2 MR. POWERS: -- you're only 6 versus the big

3 boy or high speed at 12 -- and, remember, what is cool

4 here is flow is one to one; right, relationship to the

5 speed.

6 MR. HUBER: Right.

7 MR. POWERS: Is if you did the calculation

8 here, you're going from six; right? And then you did

9 it out here to 12. You're running out. So, you know,

10 that makes sense now when you draw these; right? So

11 what he's saying is you're getting less flow, but the

12 characteristics of the unit on the permanent magnet,

13 same as verticals. You put a vertical in a well. And

14 you put a verti-magnet on it. You can take the same

15 diameter bowl, but you can get more horsepower of the

16 same diameter motor.

17 MR. HUBER: Right.

18 MR. POWERS: And it's with respect to the

19 design.

20 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay.

21 MR. FERNSTROM: So I'm going to move on to

22 the next slide. I realize this is a little different
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1 way of looking at it than probably most of us have

2 looked at it. In this slide, we are looking at the

3 water efficiency in percent. And we priced out these

4 products. So the solid line is the PM motor, which we

5 purchased for $167. And the dashed line is the

6 induction motor, which we purchased for $86. And you

7 can see the improvement in best efficiency point at

8 the max speed, the intermediate speed, and the low

9 speed relative to the base case.

10 MR. POWERS: This is Chuck. Question. When

11 you compared the PM to the induction, the induction

12 does not require a VFD. You just had a different

13 control or you used the same VFD for both and you kept

14 the pump separate?

15 MR. FERNSTROM: We had an induction pump

16 that had multiple speeds by virtue of multiple poles.

17 MR. POWERS: But you kept it separate or

18 that included the --

19 MR. FERNSTROM: Well, in this test, we kept

20 it separate, yes.

21 MR. POWERS: Okay. But the price included

22 the VFD and the three-speed?
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1 MR. FERNSTROM: Yes. These were integral

2 products. So they were sold with three- speed

3 capability. I don't know whether these prices are

4 representative or not. We'll look to our consultant

5 friends to get some sort of market average. But this

6 is what we found.

7 So you can see that there is a significant

8 improvement opportunity, 60 percent at maximum speed

9 and as much as 200 percent at low speed, by utilizing

10 the PM motor.

11 MR. POWERS: Going back there, and, see,

12 Lucas, what is interesting on that equation, 75

13 percent load, 100 percent BEP, and then the 105/110.

14 In Europe, you just take a look at the blue one. The

15 peak efficiency I am going to guess here is right

16 around on the solid line, I will say eight. Okay.

17 This is real quick. Because you noticed a drop-off of

18 five or ten percent. That's EU. Really times that at

19 around ten; right? You get enough of your five or ten

20 percent off on efficiency. So, really, then the scale

21 when you get out to 125 -- and it also gets back to

22 what Greg suggested. Get rid of the 25 percent load
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1 because now what you're doing, you're like one- tenth

2 of the power back on the curve. And it doesn't add

3 any value to it; right?

4 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Gary? Steve. You're

5 saying wire to water. How far back on the wire are

6 you going?

7 MR. BROOKMAN: That's Steve.

8 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Steve Rosenstock.

9 MR. FERNSTROM: Thank you, Steve. This is

10 Gary again. Just the input to the pump.

11 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Just the input for the

12 pump.

13 MR. BROOKMAN: Steve?

14 MR. THOMPSON: Steve, TACO. You're saying,

15 then, Gary, everything you have shown us so far is

16 perfectly logical, 100 percent, like as far as the ECM

17 savings on lower speeds versus an AC circulator.

18 They're got better turndown ratios. The wide range of

19 an ECM circuit is between like 40 and 10 watts. So it

20 makes sense. My question is you're showing a 60

21 percent difference in efficiency at maximum speed,

22 but, to be blunt, I don't know if that is a fair
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1 representation because a standard AC circulator,

2 you're looking at 22 percent line to water efficiency,

3 and an ECM circulator is like 33 percent. I'm not

4 getting how that calculates to a 60 percent

5 difference.

6 MR. POTTS: I think he is talking absolutely

7 value of water efficiency.

8 MALE SPEAKER: It's a 60 percent increase in

9 efficiency, not --

10 MR. THOMPSON: Okay. I look at that that an

11 ECM circulator is like double the efficiency of an AC

12 circulator, not 60. You know, so it's like apples and

13 oranges.

14 MR. POWERS: You've got a point. This is

15 Chuck. And you would have to -- I think Gary is being

16 nice: This is my data. I haven't had a chance to

17 analyze it yet.

18 MR. THOMPSON: Okay.

19 MR. POWERS: But, to be fair to him, you

20 know, you could argue, in other words, the bottom.

21 But, to be fair, just take the BEP for the red dashed

22 line. It said about it may be nine; right, nine
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1 gallons a minute. The BEP for the permanent magnet is

2 over at about 11. I'm just quickly looking at this;

3 right? So forget the efficiency.

4 The point is it's shifting; right, also. So

5 how do you take that into account because, by

6 definition, should you take efficiency -- and this is

7 the trick on VFDs because in permanent magnets that we

8 study in all of our development, you know,

9 theoretically you can say, "Okay. For same given

10 flow," you know, to Gary's circulator in a plant,

11 they're going to regulate that circulator at nine

12 gallons a minute or eight gallons a minute. So let's

13 say this is a nine. Well, if you come up and measure

14 it, you are probably not going to be 60 percent. You

15 have to calculate it at something less.

16 Now, if you go to here, well, now you're

17 going to have to shift by speed, throttle it, do

18 whatever, but you're also going to get 11. And will

19 the boiler accept 11? So you have to analyze it;

20 right?

21 MR. FERNSTROM: So this is Gary. Chuck,

22 that's a good observation. We did not do the
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1 calculation with respect to --

2 MR. POWERS: Sure.

3 MR. FERNSTROM: -- the same flow.

4 MR. POWERS: Sure, sure.

5 MR. BROOKMAN: Louis?

6 MR. STARR: So this is Louis Starr with

7 NEEA. There's something else. So you would say,

8 "Well, I get ten percent savings." So that means I

9 can use ten percent less power. Well, in actuality,

10 it's not. It's the flow times the head with

11 efficiency on the bottom.

12 This is a good analogy. In your house you

13 have no insulation in your wall. And you put the

14 first inch in. You get a lot of savings. You've got

15 three inches in. And you put another inch. You don't

16 get as much savings. And that is because the amount

17 of energy that you would use is on the denominator and

18 the insulative value, 1/r, is on the bottom. It's the

19 same way with efficiency.

20 When you go from a pump that's 40 percent

21 efficient to 60 percent, you get a huge uptake in

22 power than if you go from 60 to 80 as the amount of
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1 actual power used is more because the percent you are

2 going up is a greater portion of where you started.

3 When you get up to a higher end, that same 10 percent

4 of 80 is not as much as a 10 percent when it's 40.

5 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Baselines changed.

6 MR. STARR: Yes.

7 MR. ROSENSTOCK: It's gone down. Yes.

8 MR. STARR: So, I mean, what you'll really

9 see -- and I think he is going to get to some slides

10 later -- is that the actual power is substantially

11 more, even though the efficiency increased ten

12 percent. You're thinking, "Oh. Well, ten percent

13 more." Well, no. It's more than ten percent more.

14 MR. THOMPSON: Who is saying ten percent?

15 MR. STARR: Well, my point is that these

16 charts, while it's nice to know, what we really care

17 about is power because we are regulating the energy

18 efficiency here and its energy used.

19 MR. FERNSTROM: Well, this is Gary again. I

20 would argue that what we're really looking at here is

21 how many gallons we get circulated per watt hour of

22 energy we use. Okay. So here we look at the hydraulic
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1 output power. The solid line is the PM motor. The

2 dashed line is the induction motor. We get it at

3 different speeds. And you sort of see what you would

4 expect at the higher speed that hydraulic power for

5 all of these products is greater. You know, this is

6 no surprise for us.

7 So we put together this little table. And I

8 anticipate that what you are all going to react to is

9 our use of 7,300 hours. That's my estimate of the

10 circulating pump, where it just doesn't shut off. And

11 I would agree with you that's not a good value to use

12 for hydronic heating systems. It may not even be a

13 good value to use in all hot water circulation systems

14 either. But that's what we used.

15 Conversely, we used an electric cost of ten

16 cents a kilowatt hour. And I was over at my

17 neighbor's yesterday and found that -- not yesterday;

18 I was on an airplane -- but last week and found that

19 their tail block electric cost was 33 cents a kilowatt

20 hour. So things are different in California. I want

21 to get myself to the place where I can be on the low

22 side of the national average if it's 11 cents and
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1 we're at 33. The low side ought to be like five or

2 six cents. And I want to get myself a long extension

3 cord.

4 Anyway, I think that for the incremental

5 least cost we saw between these two products, with a

6 reasonable estimate of operating hours, we can find

7 ourselves to some semblance of cost- effectiveness

8 here.

9 MR. POWERS: Gary, so would it be fair to

10 say if you were at one-third of that value, 7,300, you

11 could take the payback 3 times? Instead of 4 years, it

12 would be 12 years?

13 MR. FERNSTROM: At that electric price, yes.

14 MR. BARBOUR: Yes.

15 MR. FERNSTROM: Yes. That would be -- yes.

16 MR. POWERS: Unless the price went up, it

17 would be --

18 MR. FERNSTROM: It would be shorter, yes.

19 So, anyway, this was a back-of-the-envelope

20 calculation, certainly not DOE-caliber, but it's what

21 we did.

22 So I wanted to share with you what we have
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1 done so far, what we have seen preliminarily subject

2 to further vetting before I bring the whole data set.

3 MR. BROOKMAN: Right. This is very helpful.

4 Louis, do you have a comment here?

5 MR. STARR: Yes. I was just wondering. So

6 what's the size of the -- it's 1/25th. So that is the

7 smallest of the group; right, or is there anything

8 smaller than 1/25th?

9 MR. FERNSTROM: I don't believe so.

10 MR. STARR: Okay. So that means the payback

11 as well. I guess I don't know if the payback would be

12 better as you went up in size because the price gets

13 different or more. The energy savings is more.

14 MR. FERNSTROM: I think the application

15 changes. Somebody raised the issue earlier whether we

16 were talking about residential or commercial products.

17 You know, when you start to get up into the one18 horsepower range, you're probably talking about more

19 of a commercial product, perhaps more hours of

20 operation in that application, but we're not sure

21 about that.

22 MR. BROOKMAN: Bob Barbour?
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1 MR. BARBOUR: I was just saying we just

2 crunched a few numbers here. And if you would put the

3 2,160 in there, it would have been 13 and a half

4 years.

5 MR. FERNSTROM: We have looked at in this

6 slide how these things sort of fall out, the ones we

7 tested of different sizes so far, showing the motor

8 type and the speed control available, with the EEI,

9 the BEP, and the price, and how they sort of fall out

10 relative to the European scale of merit.

11 MR. HUBER: This is Al Huber. Can you go

12 back to, yes, that slide? When you are calculating

13 the operating, you have operating hours. And then you

14 have got kW consumed. How did you arrive at where you

15 were operating? In other words, you operated at three

16 different speeds; right, when you did the test?

17 Right?

18 MR. FERNSTROM: This particular graph is for

19 full speed operation.

20 MR. HUBER: It's for full speed only?

21 MR. FERNSTROM: Yes, full speed only. It

22 does not take into account operating at reduced
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1 --

2 MR. HUBER: At which you're running in.

3 MR. FERNSTROM: Right. And if you did, of

4 course, compare at reduced speed, you would get a more

5 favorable economic outcome.

6 MR. POWERS: Can you go back one chart,

7 Gary? Chuck. So you're saying the wire -- I'm sorry.

8 Go back one more. Sorry. Where's the wire to water

9 one? Yes. So you're saying the wire to water on a

10 solid line max speed is about

11 33.

12 MR. FERNSTROM: Yes.

13 MR. POWERS: When I did my quick calculation

14 and special, I put in what I consider efficiency of

15 the VFD, what I considered a functional motor that I

16 had some notes on in these motor books and stuff, and

17 then the efficiency of the pump, I ended up at about

18 36. So it sounds sensible.

19 But what's unique that comes out of that is

20 if you take the pump out of it; right, you're not

21 going to see much change. The savings comes into the

22 permanent magnet --
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1 MR. FERNSTROM: Yes. It's --

2 MR. POWERS: -- and the VFD combination,

3 which is something we have to consider for pumps in

4 general, but --

5 MR. FERNSTROM: Exactly, that the savings

6 opportunity here is all associated with the motor,

7 though there's not much difference in the pumps.

8 Okay. Well --

9 MR. BROOKMAN: Can you go back to the last

10 final slide? That one. I want to look at that one

11 more time. This is your summary slide. I didn't

12 understand the bottom. Is that what --

13 MR. FERNSTROM: That's the European rating

14 system. So the EEI following in to the ranges

15 determines the class that you get. So you can look up

16 at the EEI and see which class these pumps would fall

17 into.

18 MR. BROOKMAN: Questions on any of this?

19 Louis?

20 MR. STARR: Just on the pricing of where --

21 your permanent magnet is actually pretty cheap

22 compared to the same price at your induction, which is
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1 pretty --

2 MR. FERNSTROM: Well --

3 MR. STARR: -- kind of counterintuitive.

4 MR. FERNSTROM: You know, these prices are

5 what we have paid on the market. So the market

6 effects mask probably to some extent the costs and the

7 position of different manufacturers in the market and

8 so on. And these aren't representative prices. These

9 just happen to be prices associated with the products

10 that we bought and used.

11 MR. STARR: But something doesn't add up

12 because he first chart showed I think 166 versus 86

13 for the induction. This one shows 166 versus 222. Go

14 back to your very first slide if you go back several

15 slides.

16 MR. POWERS: I think, Gary, it's the first

17 one, right there. See, at the top, you say 86 to 167.

18 So the 167 matches your 166. Now, if you go back --

19 MR. FERNSTROM: Yes. You're right.

20 MR. POWERS: Maybe there's a math error

21 there. So 166.95 and 167 makes sense, but the 222

22 --
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1 MR. HANDZEL: Ninety-five doesn't make

2 sense.

3 MR. HUBER: Yes. That doesn't --

4 MR. POWERS: I would think a 1/15th

5 horsepower would be more expensive than a 1/25th, but

6 I don't know. I'm not a -- these guys here would give

7 you a --

8 MR. FERNSTROM: Anyway, I'll promise to

9 double check the numbers. Like I said, this was

10 preliminary.

11 MR. POWERS: Yes, yes.

12 MR. BROOKMAN: Additional comments here?

13 Charlie?

14 MR. CAPPELLINO: Gary, could you just go

15 back to the first slide, very first slide? You kind

16 of hinted at it, and I am just curious if you have put

17 any thought into the fact that, in addition to

18 considering gallons -- what is your vertical scale?

19 MR. FERNSTROM: Gallons pumped per watt

20 hour.

21 MR. CAPPELLINO: Yes. Gallons pumped per

22 watt hour is actually Btu convected or Btu moved per
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1 watt hour because I was just thinking as you go lower

2 in speed, the velocity gets lower. And, to take it to

3 an extreme, if you get to too low a speed, you are

4 actually not moving the water around fast enough in

5 the loop. So I haven't gone through the math, but you

6 want to be I think cautious a little bit in terms of

7 maybe drawing a conclusion that the lowest speed is

8 the most economical selection because you may actually

9 have to run longer to actually -- depending on this

10 system. I don't know enough about it, but I just

11 --

12 MR. FERNSTROM: So I totally agree.

13 Electrically the lowest speed is the most economical,

14 but it certainly might not be thermally.

15 MR. CAPPELLINO: Thermally, too.

16 MR. FERNSTROM: So this suggests that we

17 might want to have some temperature control on the

18 return that assures us that we're pumping fast enough

19 to maintain the temperature differential we want

20 through the heating system.

21 MR. CAPPELLINO: Right because the overall

22 efficiency in terms of moving heat, which is your
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1 primary function, it might be a different picture.

2 There is probably some optimal speed in there that you

3 would want to conserve, but --

4 MR. FERNSTROM: Absolutely right.

5 MR. CAPPELLINO: These guys know more than I

6 do.

7 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Steve Rosenstock, EEI. So,

8 in other words, there might be a penalty on the

9 heating system if it's going too slow.

10 MR. FERNSTROM: Yes.

11 MR. ROSENSTOCK: The heating system,

12 regardless of what it is, whether it's oil, gas,

13 propane, or electric, will have to work more at too

14 low of a speed.

15 MR. FERNSTROM: So that is the next step, I

16 think, for us to think about in the context of

17 voluntary programs, labeling, you know, how we can

18 utilize control with these products to save even more

19 than we can by the single small step to a PM motor.

20 But I definitely think there are savings to be had,

21 regardless of the control system used by stepping to a

22 PM motor.
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1 MR. POWERS: Chuck. Charlie sees it. I'm

2 sure Al does. On our axial flows or our single

3 stages, when you slow them down too much, what you end

4 up doing, you get recirculation. And then you end up

5 going through the power. You know, the power goes off

6 the grid because, in fact, like you say, you're not

7 thermally moving the fluid. You're just recirculating

8 it. So it makes the unit look more, but you're

9 actually moving it through the --

10 MR. FERNSTROM: Well, there's not only the

11 question of considering the thermal effects, but, as

12 you point out, recognizing there is a lower limit

13 beyond which you wouldn't want to go.

14 MR. POWERS: Right. What's cool, though, is

15 you can x-plot this any way you want; right? You can

16 take data. And you can say, "How does it look here?

17 How does it look there?" Good stuff.

18 MR. BROOKMAN: Steve, the other Steve?

19 MR. THOMPSON: So there are a couple things.

20 We start talking about Btu delivering efficiency.

21 Just let's use that really cool word. If we use a

22 delta-p or a delta-t control strategy, that is one
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1 thing, but as soon as you get into the domestic water

2 world, it depends on whether you have a return line or

3 whether you have mixed water underneath the sink

4 because it will search the design to push fluid past

5 that valve. You need to do it really quickly. So

6 that's a whole different control strategy. So just

7 you folks be aware of that.

8 Number two is remember this. We haven't

9 talked about CP2 and CP3 in this. These complexities

10 that we're referring to right now, I've got to say it.

11 And I'd hate myself if I didn't say it right now.

12 This is one of the reasons why this topic is special.

13 It's separate from Lot 11.

14 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay.

15 MR. THOMPSON: This is all -- it's

16 different. It's the same, but it's really different.

17 MR. BROOKMAN: Steve Rosenstock.

18 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Steve Rosenstock, EEI.

19 Again, thinking out of the box, you know, now all

20 residential boilers have to have automatic temperature

21 resets. And that's every new boiler, regardless of

22 the --
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1 MR. HANDZEL: It's outdoor resets.

2 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Yes, outdoor.

3 MR. HANDZEL: Outdoor resets.

4 MR. ROSENSTOCK: In the law, it says,

5 "automatic temperature reset."

6 MR. HANDZEL: Okay.

7 MR. ROSENSTOCK: You know, it's outdoor

8 temperature resets. So, again, just thinking about

9 this is that wouldn't that also possibly have an

10 impact on the flow speed of these systems because it

11 might say because of that reset, the flow speed can't

12 be below X or something like that in any case? Again,

13 will it ever get to that low speed? I don't know.

14 MR. HANDZEL: Right. So Mark Handzel,

15 Xylem. So I think, you know, those of us who make

16 three-speed circulators will tell you most of the time

17 the contractor sets it on the fastest speed and walks

18 away and nobody touches it. So is that a sure sign of

19 the least amount of callbacks? You know, he doesn't

20 have to worry. He's not going to hear back from the

21 guy that "Hey, the system is not getting enough heat

22 to me."
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1 So, you know, these are not complex

2 controlled systems. You know, it's a very

3 unsophisticated control method right now. So anything

4 more complex is more cost and more contractor at the

5 time and labor and things like that.

6 MR. FERNSTROM: So in estimating energy

7 savings and doing these things, we have to take into

8 account the human factors. And what the contractors

9 do and don't do and what we might train them to do

10 better is important.

11 Okay. Well, thank you. I will be providing

12 this information to Alison here. And, you know, you

13 are all welcome to talk to us individually and, you

14 know, give us your thoughts on where we are headed

15 with this.

16 MR. BROOKMAN: That was good.

17 MR. FERNSTROM: Thanks.

18 MR. BROOKMAN: Thank you for doing it,

19 especially with no sleep. That was impressive.

20 We have 15 minutes left. Let's talk about

21 tomorrow just for a little bit here, what we are going

22 to try to take up tomorrow. I have on my list -- and
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1 I don't know whether, Greg, you have come up with a

2 sanitary/hygienic, whether you have come up with that

3 kind of a definition or information.

4 MR. CASE: Greg has provided something to

5 me. And I looked at it. I guess what I would

6 probably propose to do is to go to a couple of

7 sanitary pump manufacturers and say, "Does this define

8 your product?" because I don't think any of us make

9 that product.

10 MR. BROOKMAN: I see.

11 MR. TOWSLEY: Yes, we kind of do. We don't

12 sell it here in the U.S.

13 MR. CASE: Okay.

14 MR. TOWSLEY: Some of the wording is from --

15 MR. CASE: That's exactly -- you would be

16 happy with that? You guys don't make any; right?

17 MALE SPEAKER: No.

18 MR. CASE: I don't know that HI has members,

19 too many members, that make that, but I do know a

20 couple of the manufacturers. And I can try to --

21 MR. BROOKMAN: So I was generally thinking

22 that many of the largest pump manufacturers are
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1 sitting here at this table. And many of you, most of

2 you, have a pretty diverse portfolio. And if nobody

3 sitting here makes this for the domestic marketplace,

4 does that mean it's so small, that the numbers are so

5 small, that it's not worth this Working Group --

6 MR. CASE: Yes.

7 MR. BROOKMAN: -- toying with?

8 MR. CASE: It's a very niche market.

9 MR. BROOKMAN: I am just floating some

10 ideas. We will talk about this again tomorrow, of

11 course. But, Greg, I take it by your comment that you

12 won't be able to get this information by tomorrow.

13 MR. CASE: Probably not.

14 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Okay. Just floating

15 on that.

16 MR. CASE: Honestly, Doug, the only thing I

17 can tell you, I don't have contacts at those

18 companies.

19 MR. BROOKMAN: Yes.

20 MR. CASE: So I am going to have to find

21 somebody at those companies to be able to get that

22 information.
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1 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. And then another issue

2 for tomorrow is whether we can make progress on the

3 issue that we talked about for a good period of time

4 today, which is whether we need a clean water

5 definition or whether the decision tree kind of

6 approach is going to be sufficient for compliance and

7 enforcement purposes or whether there is some other

8 thing we haven't uncovered yet. And so put your

9 thinking caps on and see if by tomorrow something

10 springs loose.

11 Joanna?

12 MS. MAUER: Joanna. I was just wondering if

13 DOE has enough information to be able to kind of make

14 a proposal of the decision tree approach. I am

15 thinking that might be helpful. But then, you know,

16 how we would define -- I think the decision tree

17 approach, the idea is that you define all of the

18 things that are excluded. And then you're left with

19 what's included in the --

20 MR. ADIN: To see if I understand your

21 question, when you say, "proposal," do you mean a

22 definition of accomplish that?
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1 MS. MAUER: Yes.

2 MR. ADIN: Yes. So that's not yet.

3 MS. MAUER: Okay.

4 MR. ADIN: We can certainly think about it

5 and try and make some suggestions tomorrow. The other

6 possibility is that we could -- perhaps if we all

7 agree in principle as to what we are trying to look at

8 for the purposes of this rulemaking, we could agree on

9 that tomorrow with the understanding that we'll

10 revisit the specific wording of the definition or

11 further down the road so that we can start the ball

12 rolling on analysis. And obviously that item alone

13 shouldn't hold up what we do, everything else, that we

14 wouldn't necessarily let it anyway, but, you know,

15 perhaps we can have preliminary agreement about what

16 we agree the scope is in principle and then with the

17 understanding that we'll try and make a decision about

18 some wording for the definition, another route we

19 could take, but we'll try and come up with something

20 tomorrow.

21 MR. BROOKMAN: I would note that our next

22 meeting is March 30-31st, which is 26 days or
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1 something. So before long --

2 (Simultaneous conversation.)

3 MR. BROOKMAN: Twenty-six-27?

4 MALE SPEAKER: No. It's the 25th and 26th.

5 MR. BROOKMAN: Pardon me. I looked at the

6 wrong place. March 26th-27th. So that's 21 days or

7 something. It's not many days. So if HI is

8 successful following Al's effort at gathering data and

9 that information can get to the consultant team or to

10 members or however we can do that before that meeting,

11 we will have a lot more information at that point for

12 the next meeting.

13 (Simultaneous conversation.)

14 MR. BROOKMAN: And, then, finally, tomorrow

15 -- we're looking ahead to tomorrow, and I'm looking

16 over to Sarah. Test metrics tomorrow; right?

17 MS. WIDDER: Yes.

18 MR. BROOKMAN: Yes? We've got some new

19 information.

20 MS. WIDDER: I wouldn't say new information.

21 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay.

22 MS. WIDDER: But we can discuss sort of
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1 start where we started off last time and --

2 MR. BROOKMAN: We advanced the ball

3 significantly last time.

4 MS. WIDDER: I think we did. And so I am

5 hoping that we can remember all of that and then get

6 to some sort of consensus maybe.

7 MS. WILLIAMS: Was HI asking a list of

8 questions about the metric? No?

9 MR. CASE: No.

10 MS. WILLIAMS: No? Okay. I'm making up

11 things.

12 MR. CASE: We have a couple of questions we

13 can ask when we're discussing the metric.

14 MS. WILLIAMS: Okay. But not like major

15 things we need to research in advance?

16 MR. CASE: No.

17 MS. WILLIAMS: Okay.

18 MR. HUBER: No. I think we're okay.

19 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. And I think that's

20 most of the items on my list. Let me look here.

21 MR. POWERS: Doug

22 MR. BROOKMAN: Yes, Chuck?
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1 MR. POWERS: Could you go down the agenda

2 and tell us which ones we accomplished today?

3 MR. BROOKMAN: Yes. And maybe Alison can

4 help me. Betsy addressed the issue of federal

5 preemption first thing. And I don't think that there

6 was any new information aside from what was in her

7 very clear memo about federal preemption. So we

8 addressed that.

9 Feasibility of timeline if DOE does a

10 follow-on rulemaking. That was also in her memo. And

11 basically she said -- well, I'll let you say it.

12 MS. KOHL: Just from the Department's

13 perspective -- and this is, you know, a program. But

14 there are two routes for that. One, when we finish

15 this one, the Department could then do a new

16 rulemaking or we could discuss with ASRAC or recommend

17 to ASRAC that this group or an appropriately composed

18 working group would do that as a follow-up.

19 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Okay. And then

20 clearly defined scope for this negotiation pump types.

21 We made progress, but we didn't clearly define the

22 scope for this negotiation today.
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1 Aggregated results for their surveys, not

2 available. They include revised shipments estimate,

3 also not available.

4 MS. WILLIAMS: So this will not be work done

5 tomorrow.

6 MR. BROOKMAN: Right. And then the fourth

7 bullet, "Clearly Define Scope for Negotiation

8 Coverage," we still have the issue of clean water

9 outstanding. We have covered most of the exclusions.

10 I think one possibility is this issue of sanitary and

11 hygienic pumps. We still need to deal with that. But

12 I think that most of the exclusions that we have

13 identified, most of the pump types that were on the

14 exclusions list we have now addressed.

15 We have also addressed pretty completely, I

16 think, although maybe not fully, the parameters.

17 We're still not sure what to do with clean water.

18 And then we have not yet defined the covered

19 product.

20 MR. ADIN: Yes, we did.

21 MR. BROOKMAN: We did? Where?

22 MR. ADIN: I think that is referring to the
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1 definition.

2 MR. BROOKMAN: Oh, okay. Okay. That's

3 right. The definition of the pump and all the

4 subdefinitions: bare pump and all of those.

5 MR. ADIN: Right.

6 MR. BROOKMAN: Right.

7 MR. ADIN: So that's done.

8 MR. BROOKMAN: I thought we were talking

9 about further downstream. Okay.

10 And then tomorrow we'll take up the metric

11 and see how far we get with that. And so that's the

12 list of where we are so far. Any other suggestions,

13 ideas, thoughts on what else we should be covering at

14 this point I would welcome.

15 MR. POWERS: Were there any other critical

16 slides here that we needed to talk about that they

17 gave us?

18 MR. BROOKMAN: I scanned through there

19 briefly. And I didn't see anything else. I thought

20 we pretty much covered it.

21 MR. POWERS: And then timing for myself, I

22 have to --
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1 MR. BROOKMAN: Yes. A couple of individuals

2 have approached me already. They need to catch

3 planes, leave here tomorrow, say, 1:00 or 1:30 or so.

4 So we may lose a few members. So any votes we need to

5 take we need to take by, say, 1:00 o'clock in the

6 afternoon. And, irrespective, we plan to begin

7 tomorrow morning at 8:00 a.m. And we'll adjourn at

8 3:00 p.m.

9 And we'll be tomorrow in the big room that

10 we were in previously, 8E. So I presume Emily or

11 someone will be down there bright and early with

12 coffee and croissants at 7:00 a.m.; right?

13 Joanna?

14 MS. MAUER: The next meeting, in March 25th

15 or whatever, is it definitely going to be in

16 D.C.?

17 MR. BROOKMAN: Well, we were going to -- I

18 was going to talk about that tomorrow.

19 MS. MAUER: Okay.

20 MR. BROOKMAN: We haven't decided that yet.

21 We could talk about it now. We have a few minutes.

22 Several individuals, as you will recall, had offered
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1 to have a meeting at their location. Gary had offered

2 San Francisco. And Mark had offered Chicago. And

3 then we had a site visit offer from Chuck as well.

4 And so I floated this past DOE to see

5 whether it was possible. And I think Lucas has gone

6 back and forth with some of his management. And what

7 do you think, Lucas?

8 MR. ADIN: It doesn't look good.

9 MR. BROOKMAN: It doesn't look good.

10 MR. ADIN: Sorry, everybody.

11 MR. STARR: How about Vegas?

12 MR. FERNSTROM: This is Gary. Lucas,

13 frankly, we would rather have you spend the money on

14 good analysis than --

15 MR. ADIN: I don't know if taking from one

16 is taking from the other.

17 MR. BROOKMAN: For the record, it's a really

18 generous and thoughtful thing for you to offer to host

19 a meeting. And you never know. In the future, maybe

20 it will be possible, maybe not in the course of this

21 Working Group meeting, but you never know about

22 others. So thanks for that.
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1 And that I believe is all that I wanted to

2 cover. It is almost 5:00 o'clock. I will take now

3 closing remarks. Any remarks from any member of the

4 Working Group?

5 MR. FERNSTROM: Well, this is Gary. I think

6 we made a lot of progress today. Congratulations to

7 everybody.

8 MR. BROOKMAN: Thank you, Gary. Other

9 comments? I am also pleased. We gained a lot of

10 ground today. I look forward to seeing you all at

11 8:00 a.m. tomorrow in 8E, where we met before. Thanks

12 a lot. Be careful. It's still slippery out there.

13 (Whereupon, at 4:52 p.m., the

14 Commercial and Industrial Pumps

15 Working Group was recessed.)

16

17

18

19

20

21

22
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3 I, SARAH VEACH, hereby certify that I am not the Court 

4 Reporter who reported the following proceeding and 

5 that I have typed the transcript of this proceeding 

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8 complete transcription of said proceeding. 

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2 

3 I, CHAZ BENNETT, the Court Reporter before 

4 whom the foregoing proceeding was taken, do hereby 

5 certify that the proceeding was recorded by me; that 

6 the proceeding was thereafter reduced to typewriting 

7 under my direction; that said transcript is a true and 

8 accurate record of the proceeding; that I am neither 

9 related to nor employed by any of the parties to this 

10 proceeding; and, further, that I have no financial 

11 interest in this proceeding. 

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$

$167 321:5

$86 321:6

0

03 291:16

1

1 192:6 226:6

230:3 237:17

1,000 207:18,21

1,000-megawatt

306:19

1,200 192:21

198:8,16

219:14,17

220:19

235:10,15,17

1,400 133:8

1,450 207:2 211:7

1,750 216:4,7

1,780 219:1,8

1,800 195:16

197:18 198:11

201:6

213:10,16,21

214:15 215:4,22

217:2,13 219:14

222:5 224:2,4,16

232:8,12,19

233:19 234:14

235:12,13,16

237:21

1.0 284:17

1.28 283:17 305:10

1.5 306:9

1.6 282:18 306:12

308:12

309:15,17,18

1/15th 335:4

1/25th 282:15

286:3 297:13,14

317:2 330:6,8

335:5

1/r 326:18

1:00 144:13,14

351:3,5

1:30 351:3

10 45:17

46:4,14,22 48:4

227:4 229:1

237:19

306:17,18,20

323:19 327:3,4

10:30 82:9

10:45 82:10,13

100 14:1 41:18

42:3 46:4 322:13

323:16

1000 1:14

100-degree 229:1

105/110 322:13

10-inch 37:13

11 15:15 16:3 17:9

27:14 37:9 56:7

70:19 71:4 74:6

75:8 93:22

111:14 113:9

123:13 130:2

199:5 223:5

264:17 266:17

301:20 303:18

305:2,4,5 307:18

325:2,18,19

328:22 339:13

11:47 144:10

110 212:19

12 128:3 198:11

270:14 290:1

320:3,9 329:12

120 227:4 237:20

125 202:14 322:21

128 283:21

12-inch 37:13

12-stage 210:4

12th 268:15

13 165:11 291:16

306:8 308:3

331:3

14 242:6 266:9

306:10,12,21

308:12,18

140 211:2 212:3

14th 14:15

15 165:17 170:1

238:11 254:5

266:9,15 341:20

150 212:3 254:5

150-kilowatt

227:12

15th 265:9 268:13

16 167:6 226:20

227:16 266:9,15

291:17 304:22

166 334:12,13,18

166.95 334:21

167 334:17,18,21

17 167:6 221:16

18 220:21

19th 14:14

2

2 6:21 195:17

287:13 291:21

2,000 37:12

2,150 302:1

2,160 282:22

283:14 288:17

289:6,10 290:3

296:16 331:3

2,900 207:2 211:4

2.5 291:19

2:40 239:21

2:55 239:21

20 19:4

24:11,13,20

25:11,16 26:3

27:19,21

30:7,10,14,21

31:22 33:4 66:16

310:21 314:6

200 63:7 192:7

204:9

208:10,14,18

212:4,21 213:5

237:17 293:2

322:9

2014 1:16 4:8

20585 1:14

21 346:6

22 135:20 137:15

324:2

222 334:13,21

225-250 213:3

23 135:20 139:15

143:2

24 261:4

25 61:6 105:16

226:19

227:17,18 229:9

237:18 262:12

265:8 267:7

269:4 273:8
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291:14 322:22

25th 346:4 351:14

26 345:22

26th 346:4

26th-27th 346:6

280 215:20 216:1

2-pole 196:1

219:4,9

3

3 65:13 210:2

219:9 269:19

282:16 286:3

287:13 297:14

329:11

3,420 192:16

3,510 192:8

3,540 192:8 193:12

3,590 193:12

3,600 192:21

193:2,13

195:16,21

197:18,22 201:5

213:16 219:1,14

221:14,19 222:4

224:5,16

232:8,13,17,19

233:17,21

234:1,3,7,8,14

237:20

3.0 284:17

3.281 211:3

3:00 238:21 351:8

30 291:18

30-31st 345:22

30-inch 37:13

32 307:3 308:20

33 324:3 328:19

329:1 332:11

36 196:1 224:2

313:6,20 332:18

365 289:11

3G 196:16

3-speed 317:4,5

4

4 1:16 19:4 24:7

135:5 147:22

202:15

207:11,19 239:1

329:11

4:00 238:21

4:52 353:13

40 291:13 307:14

323:19 326:20

327:4

450 203:20

459 61:6 204:2,10

208:2 211:3,9,22

213:15 215:18

216:20 237:18

46 283:3,17 291:15

305:10

460 214:13

469 216:1

4-pole 195:17

219:5,8

4th 4:8 236:7

239:4,5

5

5 75:16 130:6

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50 45:17 46:14

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500 207:20

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5-year 291:19

6

6 135:2,4,5

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205:20 207:11

237:21 239:2

283:20 289:8,11

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325:14

326:21,22

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7,300 328:9 329:10

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8 128:22 129:4,6

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9 210:2 227:18

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a.m 1:17 351:7,12

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80:19 87:16

96:15 143:15

145:14 250:21

258:11 275:20

278:14

343:12,21

344:13
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absent 134:18

absentia 238:12

absolutely 324:6

337:4

abstention 169:22

170:1 186:20

238:12

abstentions

165:21

AC 291:12 296:20

302:1,9 323:17

324:1,11

accept 199:8 238:9

325:19

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157:10

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accruing 210:7

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82:7 355:8

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255:22

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46:11

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19:14,21 20:22

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106:14 109:18

117:10 131:20

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180:2 191:9

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213:21 214:5

215:7 219:13,18

220:13 221:2

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93:4,15 94:7

97:20

98:1,4,7,13,22

99:9 100:6,10,17

102:20 104:7
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107:12,17,19

108:5,21

109:12,17,21

110:4,7

113:5,16,18,20

114:1,7

119:12,19

120:21

129:11,16

133:14 134:10

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139:3,7,13

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192:2 193:8

194:3 198:18

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222:7 231:15

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344:20 345:2,4

349:20,22

350:5,7

352:8,10,15

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administrative

18:1

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17:19

admit 14:1

adopt 170:8

adopted 167:11

adopting 145:20

adopts 145:8

advance 347:15

advanced 269:18

347:2

advantage 212:16

advice 120:1

advisement 13:20

ADVISORY 1:8

advocacy 57:5

110:17

advocate 89:1

advocates 116:16

122:11 145:4

affect 20:2,3,10

86:5 232:20

251:2 259:8

262:1

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167:8

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affiliation 4:15

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agenda 6:19,20

199:19 348:1

aggregate 278:11

279:22 282:4

288:18 289:14

291:5 300:3

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aggregating 300:4

agnostic 196:3

ago 21:18 24:6

76:18 106:13

116:8 190:13

200:4 304:4

agreed 130:15

142:21 168:3

191:4

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agreement 14:22

65:12 74:18

132:18,22

345:15

agreements

267:12

ahead 28:2 31:10

42:17 56:16

71:14 84:12 89:9

97:3 109:20

111:3 117:1

118:21 131:10

132:14 133:20

157:14 177:14

183:22 197:16

231:14 233:22

244:22 246:16

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21:16,17 23:16

32:22 35:19,20

42:7 56:16 57:2

59:13 62:22 65:2

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80:15 81:17

88:7,10,11 90:1

91:10 96:11

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101:2 102:16

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121:13,14,15

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193:5 194:20

195:9 197:16

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218:20

222:14,15

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235:8,9 243:19

244:21 247:8

249:4 253:20

255:8 262:11

267:4 268:11

269:16 276:21

280:9,10 288:21

296:22 301:1

303:18

315:15,16 319:5
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331:11 338:2

Albert 2:14 246:19

align 145:15

aligned 271:11

alignment 145:3

Alison 3:9 5:11

49:10 58:3 59:7

60:9,11 61:4

65:3 66:14 76:17

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104:18 116:6

127:18 132:16

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280:8 281:18

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160:8 263:11

345:12

already 30:13

59:17 61:1 82:12

84:16 94:4 121:1

131:12 133:16

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158:13,14,17

171:14 227:19

235:19 240:13

241:18 244:1

257:9 261:18

268:1,6 281:10

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312:14 351:2

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87:2 97:10

105:13 133:6

148:15 168:9

169:20 178:22

189:18 208:19

221:17 223:21

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232:18 234:13

242:3 254:17

276:5 311:20

312:14,16

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335:16 343:9,20

344:14 347:4

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106:20

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258:18

amount 19:10,11

111:15 296:16

326:16,22

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amounts 155:17

214:3

ample 39:11

analogous 207:2

295:5

analogy 326:12

analysis 180:7

300:3 345:12

352:14

analytical 18:15

analytically 278:9

analyze 243:15

268:15,16

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325:19

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267:18,19

and/or 27:22 39:1

152:4,5,6 154:9

angle 254:11

animal 16:15

annual 267:5

283:1

306:10,18,21

309:9

annuals 305:1

annum 308:18

anomaly

255:11,16,21

ANSI/HI 67:18

answer 31:19

105:1 113:6

125:3 149:8,11

194:17

204:12,13,15

230:20 232:1

258:4 262:20

285:15 297:5

answered 31:5

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anybody 6:5 40:1

124:10 238:22

269:1

anyone 172:12

anything 10:2 22:6

34:4 37:19 43:8

56:12 58:6 59:11

69:15 78:13

86:15 110:17

115:14,16

116:16 118:8,19

130:16 156:6

177:21 179:3

197:5,20 203:19

213:18 216:9

235:15 247:5

257:7 263:21

269:20 275:14

330:7 341:3

350:19

anyway 20:11

42:18 69:10

129:19 130:11

203:13,16

207:21 236:14

272:12 276:12

303:5 329:4,19
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335:8 345:14

API 24:14 79:20

114:20 116:13

123:2

apologies 6:15

apologize 264:15

apparently 240:10

appear 138:22

appearances 103:5

appendix 82:4

applaud 238:16

Applause 166:6

238:17

apples 156:10

324:12

Appliance 1:7

2:17 5:1

applicable 222:4

application 41:12

70:15 105:19

109:6,10,11

111:6 113:22

119:2,4,10

120:18 121:4

225:6 289:6,20

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applications 86:14

118:4 145:13,16

181:11 191:19

229:2 244:14

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288:19 295:9,12

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applicationsensitive 120:19

244:10

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63:16,17 65:9

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228:19 235:19

244:9

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39:17 76:10

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appreciable

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187:9 241:8

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appreciated

269:17

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69:10

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283:3 291:21

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arbitrator 301:9

area 50:6 83:2

130:3

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arena 306:12

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212:13

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124:2 142:8

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310:8

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139:20

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48:4,15,16 49:9

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116:13

aspects 18:9,12

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122:21

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aspirator 184:17

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associated 245:6

262:5 266:19

333:6 334:9

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187:12 202:21

218:3 232:11

311:8

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318:15

assumptions

292:17

assurance 100:18

assures 336:18

asynchronous

194:1

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253:18

attach 101:21

attention 99:19

authorities 25:1

99:20

authority 24:14,16

99:2
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authorization 12:6

authorize 13:3,4

authorized 12:2

20:9 146:17

187:1,5

automatic 140:19

339:20 340:5

automatically

235:16 275:17

available 39:11

311:2 331:8

349:2,3

Avenue 1:14

average

285:14,16,22

286:1,3,13,15,21

291:13 292:6

299:7 301:18

302:22 303:21

322:5 328:22

avoid 85:8

86:21,22 111:11

126:17 245:10

avoided 124:22

aware 20:16 28:15

270:1 339:7

Awareness 2:17

5:2

away 95:2 96:20

112:13 118:11

121:21 178:10

340:18

axial 272:5,16

275:22 338:2

axis 316:5

B

back-of-theenvelope 329:19

backup 27:8

126:17 288:9

bad 6:4 23:10

196:17

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balance 301:21

ball 59:6 345:11

347:2

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302:10 304:6

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227:16,17,18

229:9,10 239:3

Barbour 2:6 4:16

10:8,9,11

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329:14 330:22

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160:8,10,11,16

161:17,20

162:15

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172:6,13

173:15,19 175:9

177:6 185:10

186:3 251:5

350:4

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barge 54:6

barges 56:4

barrier 121:9,11

215:12

barriers 114:5,6

base 54:13 123:6

309:3,5 311:13

321:9

based 12:15 39:16

44:19 53:16 64:2

84:6 119:14,15

139:3 167:11

170:7 187:18

203:6 246:13

266:22 282:13

287:19,20

288:20 289:19

300:3 304:13

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Baselines 327:5

basic 9:4 27:10

46:6 84:8 96:7

257:7

basically 20:22

25:12 31:22

106:15 129:1

130:6,12 154:19

181:7 188:5

192:18 210:9

215:20 235:21

260:2 319:19

348:11

basics 96:10

122:17

basis 20:11 97:18

211:21 249:20

260:11 308:12

basket 251:16

255:5

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BB1s 276:3

BB3s 272:11

BB4s 272:12

bear 87:13 306:11

bearing 169:7

220:6

bearings 220:6

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318:9

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257:10

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beginning 72:10

120:15 163:13

166:22

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102:2 160:9

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13:17 56:12

84:3,7 85:12

89:2,14 93:14

126:19 145:6

146:13 197:1

258:9 267:16

280:11 305:3

330:9 353:1

Beloit 2:16 5:3

belong 72:1,7

belonging 72:8

benchmarks

126:10

benefit 15:12 30:4

133:14 217:19

Bennett 1:21
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355:3,18

BEP 61:6,10,18

62:3,7,11

63:5,14 64:12

65:9 188:12

212:8,9,11,17

213:4,17 217:1

221:8 237:18,19

288:7 322:13

324:21 325:1

331:9

Berkeley 3:9 5:12

best 43:12 44:2,11

90:1 91:9 104:13

106:14

220:18,20

221:1,9 315:9

321:7

Betsy 2:15 5:6

7:4,19 10:1,7,13

76:2 77:19

147:13 150:22

151:20 159:6

161:15 166:16

257:6 260:15

261:5 295:13

296:6 348:4

Betsy's 7:10

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25:18 70:16 75:4

85:15 86:9

123:22 150:18

173:3,5 223:4

284:6 323:18

330:12 341:10

beyond 130:2

189:11 225:7

338:13

bidders 99:6

bigger 218:12

239:3 256:17

biggest 40:20

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268:14 280:17

bit 11:9 24:1 61:19

62:16 65:3 69:3

76:18 85:13 86:3

111:10 118:19

122:2 125:22

131:21 142:19

143:13 204:19

213:6 221:22

224:21 230:12

241:5 262:4

273:10 313:5,19

336:6 341:21

blade 184:18

blades 195:12

blah 140:6 171:5

blanche 114:17

block 328:19

blocks 254:11

blue 315:2,17

318:17 322:14

blunt 323:22

board 38:10 208:2

Bob 4:16 10:9

13:18 310:22

311:1,20 330:22

bodies 29:4,6,9

35:6

body 44:8 254:11

boiler 52:22

325:19 339:21

boilers 140:19,22

339:20

bolt 40:3

bolting 40:3

bona 126:11

books 191:22

192:5 332:16

booster 263:13

BOTELER 2:7

102:4,7,10

bother 198:14

bottom 12:18 26:2

121:1,9 164:13

316:1,3 324:20

326:11,18

333:12

bought 310:20

316:22 334:10

boundaries 46:11

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bowl 130:15,21

131:8,9 133:3

135:3 188:14,19

237:21 320:15

bowls 210:4

box 32:4

72:16,17,18

75:7,8 118:14

123:14 147:9

339:19

boxes 34:14

boy 320:3

brain 200:11

brand 292:14

301:3

break 67:7

81:16,17 83:17

143:20 144:6,10

194:6 238:19

300:19

Brent 6:1

bridge 239:15,17

brief 276:21

briefly 312:17

350:19

bright 351:11

bring 105:14

120:22 124:20

166:22 259:5

300:22 330:2

bringing 124:8

311:9

brings 213:21

214:2

broad 115:22

116:1 135:18

136:5 145:8,20

146:17 151:9

179:2 183:1

184:3 202:8

225:11

broadened 207:12

213:5,15

broader 76:9

122:5 135:21

150:5,6

151:12,13 156:6

184:21 190:17

201:21 202:13

230:9,12

broadly 76:5

184:6 230:6,8

broke 282:14

bronze 42:8

218:15

Brookman 2:3

4:2,6,11

5:8,14,18 6:3,9

8:10,13

9:7,12,21

10:3,6,13

11:6,11,15

13:1,18

14:4,9,11,19
Capital Reporting Company

Commerical and Industrial Pumps Working Group Meeting 03-04-2014

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www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014

15:1,6,18 16:12

17:3 18:19,22

20:17

21:1,4,9,16

22:2,12

23:3,7,10,13

26:5 28:2 29:1

30:19,22 31:5,10

32:15,19,22

33:21 34:19

35:10,19 36:12

38:7,14 40:8

41:3,7 42:7,22

43:7,14,18,21

44:16,18 46:17

47:15 48:3,9

49:7,16

50:1,16,18

51:3,7,16

52:6,19 53:7,13

55:18,21

56:16,21 57:2,17

58:3,12,20

59:1,4,15

60:9,21 62:9

64:21

65:2,8,18,22

66:5,9 68:10,19

69:21 71:13,20

73:15 74:20

75:3,15

76:7,14,17

77:3,17 78:2

79:7 80:2

81:9,12,15

82:8,16,19,21

83:5 84:11,14

85:11 88:7,10

90:13 91:10

92:12 93:19

95:22 96:6,16

97:1,3,6 100:7

101:3 102:2,12

103:16

104:4,16,18

105:20 106:3,10

107:3,10,16,18

108:4,9,20 109:2

110:13 111:3,13

112:11 113:4

115:2,6,11,18

116:5,22 117:4

118:15 119:21

120:4,8,13,20

121:13,15

122:7,9,15

123:20 124:6,12

127:8 128:4,8,18

129:2,5,8,15

130:5,19 131:14

132:6,14,16,21

133:2,5,18

134:1,6,12,16

135:13

136:2,7,13

137:1,5,8,12

138:3 139:2

140:2 141:6

142:10

143:1,6,11,14,19

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144:7,9,12,17

146:1,5,9,11,15,

20 147:1,11

148:6,9,11,14

149:15,18

152:2,6,9,21

155:14,22

156:4,13,16

157:14

158:1,3,20

159:11 160:6,17

161:12,15,17,22

164:16

165:5,11,14,17,2

0 166:1,10,13,16

167:13,17

168:2,17,21

169:2,5,16,21

171:12

172:5,9,11,20

173:2,9,13

174:8,18 175:2,6

176:8,17,20

177:5,14

178:13,17,21

179:20 180:14

181:3,5,12,19,22

182:20 183:8,20

185:5,16,19,21

186:11,15,19

187:2,9,14 188:1

189:20

190:2,12,16,20

191:1,8 192:10

194:10

196:7,13,19

197:16 198:5,17

199:6,14,16

200:3,17,20

201:3,15

202:10,16

203:1,5,14,18,21

204:13 205:13

206:22 207:13

208:20

209:15,19

210:8,19

211:12,18

213:19 214:9,17

215:2 217:17

218:19 219:10

220:1,16 221:12

222:14 223:22

225:2,13 226:11

229:18

231:2,7,10,14

232:3 233:13

234:10 235:8,22

236:3 237:4,13

238:6,10,18

239:5,8,10,12,15

,19 240:3,15,18

241:7,15

242:3,11

243:12,17

244:12,21

245:12 246:2,15

247:8,19 248:21

252:2,6 253:20

255:12,17,22

256:12,15

257:14

258:4,7,21

259:1,15,22

261:11,14

263:1,4,15,17,22

264:6,11,13,15

265:13,17,20

266:12,15 267:2

268:11 269:8,16

270:8,10

271:2,8,19

272:1,14 273:16

274:7 276:20

277:3,5,12

280:3,9

281:2,5,8,13,17

282:1,9,12 287:9

289:2 290:2

291:22 292:21

296:7,22 297:17

299:17 300:5

301:10,13,16

303:9,12,16

304:13

305:12,18

307:7,11

308:5,10,22

309:11,14,19,21

310:14,22

312:1,6,12,21

313:8,11,14,18

317:13 320:20

323:7,13 326:5

330:3,22

333:9,18 335:12

338:18

339:14,17

341:16,18
Capital Reporting Company

Commerical and Industrial Pumps Working Group Meeting 03-04-2014

Page 10

(866) 448 - DEPO

www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014

342:10,21

343:7,9,14,19

344:1 345:21

346:3,5,14,18,21

347:2,19,22

348:3,19

349:6,21

350:2,6,8,18

351:1,17,20

352:9,17 353:8

brought 95:3

124:3 126:20

131:13 132:2

142:13 191:22

Btu 335:22 338:20

bucket 252:22

build 250:5

building 1:13

37:14 54:14

built 120:15

254:10

bulb 117:19

bullet 200:1 349:7

bumps 208:17

bunch 35:3 122:17

213:22 307:6

buy 219:18

300:17,19

310:18 311:14

buyer 179:15

buying 80:17 99:3

179:16 302:16

C

calculate 325:15

calculated 289:16

calculates 324:4

calculating 331:12

calculation 320:7

326:1 329:20

332:13

calculations

301:21

calculator 210:21

California 2:11

9:17

145:5,6,9,21

146:3 244:3

248:14,16

250:19 256:18

257:11

260:3,7,16,20,21

261:6 263:11

328:20

California's 257:1

callbacks 340:19

Callie 2:21 196:9

cap 32:5

capability 29:15

207:20 251:3

253:17 317:4,6

322:3

capable 110:1

111:8 113:8,10

235:5 288:2

capacity 186:21

Capital 1:21

capped 212:4

Cappellino 2:8

4:20 20:19

21:2,5 52:20

62:14 106:12

109:3,8,13,20

110:6,11 155:9

156:2 174:1

206:3,8 218:21

219:4,7

272:2,7,18

273:11 319:10

335:14,21

336:15,21 337:5

caps 344:9

car 210:22

care 108:17

176:14 189:18

194:22 195:19

230:15 295:20

327:16

careful 29:3 42:17

113:21 353:12

carefully 62:10

carrier 41:4

carry 168:12

carte 114:17

case 2:9 4:19 26:20

33:3 41:14

42:9,10 48:17,19

56:3 57:19,20

58:7,10,15

63:19,22

64:5,7,14,18

65:1 81:9,10,13

84:1,2 85:12,20

86:8 102:15

112:15,16,22

116:2 151:22

152:1,3,7,10,15

153:9,13,16,18

167:3 171:19,22

172:3 179:8

213:19,20

214:7,14 215:6

219:5 221:16

225:2,3,17

255:15 257:4

258:15 269:1

270:11 295:2

321:9 340:12

342:4,13,15,18

343:6,8,13,16,20

347:9,12,16

cases 26:8 219:13

casing 42:9 271:15

279:19

cast 42:10

catalog

225:11,16,18

catch 90:8 351:2

catching 242:3

categorically

52:13 315:5

categories 23:17

27:12 36:15

223:8 288:14

category 24:4 27:1

36:17 95:11

189:9 224:9

248:9 257:18

259:9 274:10

276:18 293:9

305:3

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caucus 83:18 84:1

110:17 143:9

144:20 266:1

276:21

cause 16:21 61:18

140:17

caution 187:15

cautious 336:6

caveat 215:22

caveats 313:3

CE 94:16

102:18,19

cents 301:20

303:19

328:16,19,22

329:2
Capital Reporting Company

Commerical and Industrial Pumps Working Group Meeting 03-04-2014

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www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014

CEO 267:6

certain 12:2 15:22

17:7,10 25:2,9

27:12 38:4 59:5

65:16 71:3 86:5

135:1 156:11

184:11 194:21

261:9 296:16

314:17

certainly 21:7 86:8

92:6 121:4 184:5

261:21 297:20

298:9 329:20

336:14 345:4

CERTIFICATE

354:1 355:1

certification 24:20

29:10 101:9

102:21 107:7

certifications 28:7

certified 24:8,10

25:15 26:9 27:18

29:9 30:20 31:13

32:14,15 35:6

41:22 66:15

97:14,16 101:13

102:17,18

103:4,9

107:14,21

108:5,6,11,13

109:9 221:19

224:4 235:13

certifies 25:16

224:3

certify 28:5 29:12

31:2 97:14

102:22 230:20

354:3 355:5

certifying 24:14

25:1 28:20

29:4,6 210:2

224:16

cetera 50:13 54:17

87:13 123:7

CFR 45:17

46:14,22 48:4

165:2

challenging

134:22 245:9

chance 82:9 144:1

156:19 175:3

188:9 197:12

324:16

chances 37:18

261:17

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21:15 24:10,12

40:14,16,19

43:15,16 63:8,10

88:3,4 92:8

113:7 131:18

150:17 156:3

162:18 220:7

227:21 238:13

256:20 266:6

274:8 275:14

332:21

changed 60:4

257:7 327:5

changes 91:22

92:1 168:22

227:16 330:15

changing 180:12

232:13 257:5

291:6

characteristic

100:19

characteristics

84:22 103:5

116:10,12

119:15 203:11

246:14 320:12

characterized

186:5 237:14

chargers 295:21

Charles 2:8,20

19:15

Charlie 4:20

20:18,19 46:1

52:19,20 53:13

55:9 62:13,14

106:10 109:2

155:8,22 173:22

174:1,14 205:21

211:1 218:20,21

219:10 221:13

272:1,2 319:8

335:13 338:1

Charlie's 94:20

chart 8:5 65:13

66:12 67:16

68:7,8 125:17

164:10 261:16

269:19 270:13

306:2 332:6

334:12

charts 327:16

Chaz 1:21

355:3,18

cheap 108:14,16

333:21

cheating 89:11

99:22

check 13:14 32:3

36:5 77:7,9

87:17 270:14

276:19,22 335:9

checking 223:21

257:21,22

chemical 116:14

123:2

chemicals 114:21

Chicago 352:2

chlorine 249:11

choice 87:17

choose 21:7

234:21

chose 109:10

111:14

Chuck 5:4 8:1

9:12,13 20:17

22:10,16 26:7

29:1 30:17 31:20

32:11 34:1,20

37:7 38:14 40:9

41:7,15 44:7

49:8,14 50:1

51:10 52:6 53:14

57:12 66:10,19

69:21 75:7 83:6

93:19 98:15

101:14 105:8

114:13 122:15

124:20 131:10

132:7 140:4

154:1 163:11

167:18 170:12

175:6 181:12

182:1 188:16

190:4 191:4

193:16 195:7

199:15,17

205:13 210:19

211:21 218:9,19

219:16 220:1

226:4 227:11

236:3 240:6

248:21 251:4

252:7 255:8

259:18 261:14

278:19 281:3

305:12 309:2

317:13,14

321:10 324:15
Capital Reporting Company

Commerical and Industrial Pumps Working Group Meeting 03-04-2014

Page 12

(866) 448 - DEPO

www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014

325:21 332:7

338:1 347:22

352:3

Chuck's 56:3

176:21

circled 122:19

circuit 323:19

circulate

314:13,20

circulated 327:21

circulating 328:10

circulation 328:13

circulator 9:15

19:9 38:1 200:8

282:4,5,6,14

292:4 297:2

300:9,10

302:1,2,5,9,16

303:2 304:3

306:4,5 312:4

314:7 323:17

324:1,3,11,12

325:10,11

circulators 11:20

15:14 16:5,10

17:11 19:2,13

22:1,5 37:20

117:18 118:7

127:20,21 128:3

198:21

199:2,9,13

265:10,14,15

281:16,19

287:16,18

288:8,9 291:8

292:8 293:16

294:1,2,5 296:2

304:17

305:9,14,20

306:10 307:18

317:3 340:16

circumvent

89:6,21

city 243:21

claim 33:7,9

85:8,17 86:18,20

151:12

claims 87:5

clarification 12:15

34:22 36:14

76:15 126:7

179:21 187:10

198:19 200:21

201:5 206:13

214:12 217:18

241:19 248:19

256:14 257:8

287:13

clarifications

75:18 228:4

240:6

clarified 125:17

128:13 272:3

294:13

clarifies 184:2

272:9

clarify 24:9 31:3

34:1 68:21 92:12

95:22 97:21

107:12 109:3

112:4 137:2

182:21 184:13

194:3 201:10

224:13 233:11

236:16 263:20

268:11 299:16

303:18

clarifying 226:14

281:9

clarity 111:12

120:22 200:10

class 17:7 184:11

307:6,13

333:15,16

classes 74:7 307:4

classification

188:21 276:4

classify 56:14

clause

185:14,17,22

clean 59:18,19,21

68:17 76:18

77:2,14

78:6,8,14,19,22

79:12,15

80:5,17,21

81:3,7 82:1

83:19,21

84:3,6,22

85:1,8,15

86:11,13,14,15,1

9,20 87:7,10,21

90:3,5

91:13,17,21

92:17 93:1,2,3,9

94:9 95:8,14

96:21 98:9

100:13,18

103:10,19

104:20,22

105:6,12,18

109:22 110:2,4,7

111:1,2,6,8,10,1

8 112:7,17,18,19

113:1,10,11,19

114:9

115:7,8,13,15,16

116:4,9,17

117:7,8,11,20

118:3,10 119:2,9

120:3,15

121:3,12 122:5

123:9,12 125:18

128:15 129:5,13

130:8

155:17,18,20

164:11 191:7

227:4 236:8,9

270:3 344:4

349:8,17

cleanest 47:19

clear 22:17 30:16

52:3 62:15 68:11

76:4 89:5 91:14

110:9 111:5,7

114:17 121:10

133:5 134:19

137:17 141:14

145:19 148:20

151:16 160:2

166:10 195:20

196:13 198:4

201:14 228:5

232:1 237:1

240:9 261:8

262:15,16 270:2

280:5 348:7

clearance 80:13

Clearances 115:10

clearer 160:1

clearly 7:14 10:14

69:8 94:9 164:21

227:4,6 262:5

304:14

348:20,21 349:7

climb 239:1

close 77:8 83:15

97:8 144:6 195:3

213:7 239:20

258:10 271:9

284:1,2 287:10

302:11

close-coupled

175:19

closed 6:7,10

75:20 181:13,14
Capital Reporting Company

Commerical and Industrial Pumps Working Group Meeting 03-04-2014

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www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014

closely 271:11

closest 211:10

270:3

closing 353:3

clue 285:15

Coast 6:5

coated 49:4

code 45:18,19

46:9,13

47:5,6,13

48:5,7,10 52:22

53:2

code/safety 51:1

code/safetyrelated 45:8

48:8 49:20 50:6

coded 47:9,12 50:3

coffee 238:19

351:12

cogent 14:5

cognizant 163:19

cohorts 41:16 47:4

collect 265:8

collecting 64:4,5

267:1

collection 18:12

232:22

color 66:11 67:16

113:17 315:3

colorful 7:21

65:13

column 67:19,22

236:11 278:12

293:7

combination 48:14

128:19 333:2

combine 270:22

combined 16:16

173:6,8,9 249:16

272:22 274:11

278:3,4,7

combustion

174:5,9 177:8

comes 87:7 90:19

97:11 105:8

270:3 275:7

332:19,21

comfort 36:8

comfortable 8:20

9:1 52:15 69:11

78:13 134:7

139:14 169:9

172:11 173:17

187:12 191:13

303:2 312:22

coming 14:12

61:20 94:5 241:5

290:15 300:14

comma 161:22

comment 24:7

56:3 62:3 118:22

120:1 124:17

144:21 178:20

215:4 258:16

287:10 330:4

343:11

comments 22:3

26:5 40:10 46:17

51:19 57:4 66:10

118:17 131:8

207:14 264:20

304:16 312:3

335:12 353:9

commerce 107:15

295:15 303:20

commercial 1:9

4:6 244:6

246:8,12,19

247:22

248:10,17

294:15,20

295:9,10,16,18

330:16,19

353:14

commitment

10:20

Committee 1:8

14:21 20:21 21:3

118:8

Communication

38:18

companies 25:3,9

26:10 33:16,17

41:22 101:18

250:5 262:12

265:7,8 267:6,8

269:5 273:6,17

343:18,21

company 1:21

94:20 98:19

122:1 208:5

252:10 254:18

company's 203:6

compare 316:8

332:4

compared 111:1

135:8 317:6

321:11 333:22

comparing 233:9

competing 97:15

competition

108:14,17

competitors 269:1

270:5

complement 57:10

82:22

complete 132:20

185:6 252:7

307:19 354:8

completely 89:22

229:13 241:17

349:15

complex 341:1,4

complexities 339:9

compliance

24:11,19 26:3

79:11,21 84:19

102:4,11 344:6

compliant 25:17

27:19,21 29:12

31:2 32:16,17

35:8,12,13,16

39:22 40:12

54:21 55:1

complication

279:3

complies 46:21

48:3

comply 32:8

89:16,17 95:9

101:18 126:14

193:2

component 173:14

components

138:14 139:1

186:7

composed 348:17

composite 252:12

259:19

composition 21:14

comprehensive

138:2

compression

183:12

compressor

153:11

compressors
Capital Reporting Company

Commerical and Industrial Pumps Working Group Meeting 03-04-2014

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www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014

153:7,8

computer 23:2

conceivably

11:5,12 74:6

concentrating

225:4

concept 120:14

196:20

conceptualize

72:14

conceptually

196:8

concern 18:18

162:22 194:12

concerned 18:6

38:21 39:12

97:10 121:17

122:2 136:12

167:9 180:6

232:10 243:5

246:7 250:19

concerns 167:7

conclude 119:22

conclusion 11:13

336:7

concrete 54:14

concur 270:15

condition 233:8

234:19

conditions 27:12

37:5 50:10

302:20

conduct 11:9

conducting 297:22

confident 227:2

confidential 300:4

configurations

74:6

Configure 21:1

configured 180:13

confirm 53:8

131:5 191:6

201:19

confirmation 38:8

confirmed 83:9

confuse 192:20

confused 49:20

60:18 107:3

191:5 279:10

confusing 16:20

69:4 71:22

204:19

confusion 61:19

71:21

Congratulations

166:5 353:6

Congress 158:17

connected

175:8,18

connection 81:20

consecutive 226:7

consecutively

227:10

consensus 166:2

186:5 187:17

240:11 347:6

conservation 2:10

107:13

conserve 337:3

consider 11:4 80:6

96:18 120:7

147:10 180:6

184:4,5,8 194:18

211:14 244:18

246:3 254:9,13

264:22 265:21

268:1 332:14

333:3

considerable

62:12 134:9

considerably

18:7,16

consideration

14:18 148:2

considered 180:7

186:1 188:5

199:3 200:8

202:9 267:13

307:19,20

332:15

considering 16:3

18:13 75:20

113:8 135:21

191:18 217:20

237:22 335:18

338:11

consistent 155:14

302:10 315:12

317:22 318:19

constant 282:20

283:1 306:15

constitutes 74:4

consult 82:9

consultant 105:12

125:11 322:4

346:9

consultants 192:1

consulted 6:18

consumed 314:14

315:6 331:14

consumer 295:8

302:15

consumers 302:8

consumption 39:2

287:19

306:13,22

308:18

contacts 343:17

contain 133:15

containing 150:20

contemplating

208:22

content 105:15,17

context 51:2 195:9

292:19 306:1,7

337:16

continuation 11:3

continue 19:9

64:21 145:4

contractor 179:18

260:19 340:17

341:4

contractors 341:8

contradicting

135:2

contribute 110:17

contributing 65:3

control 109:14

119:17 137:3

177:20 178:18

180:16 181:17

183:5,16

184:17,20,21,22

185:7 244:18,19

302:2 307:16

321:13 331:8

336:17

337:18,21

338:22 339:6

341:3

controlled 341:2

controlling 98:14

183:18
Capital Reporting Company

Commerical and Industrial Pumps Working Group Meeting 03-04-2014

Page 15

(866) 448 - DEPO

www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014

controls 137:6,21

138:7,15,19

139:11 140:17

141:4,9 142:1

148:20 159:5

160:13 162:17

170:12 172:7

174:22 177:12

178:17 179:2,3

180:1,7,10 181:1

183:12,17

184:4,6,12,19

185:6,12,13

186:4

convected 335:22

convene 297:1

301:8

conventional

192:4

conversation 9:18

22:3 117:6

143:16 149:20

178:9 193:15

196:22 201:8

246:18 252:1

346:2,13

converse 219:5

conversely 117:16

122:11 328:15

conversion 291:20

converting 290:13

cool 320:3

338:14,21

cooling 289:8

copy 22:18 23:6

170:22 268:6,7

cord 329:3

Corporation

2:8,20 4:21 5:5

correct 6:7 21:10

27:20 31:14

66:16 74:22

109:6,7,16

132:21 133:2,6

136:19 181:9

190:15,19

200:17,20

209:12,13

219:3,6 245:15

248:2 261:8

296:3 315:18

354:7

correctly 58:13

289:7

correlate 268:9

correlates 212:4

corresponds

190:13

corridor 238:21

239:16,22

cost 31:15 42:10

114:5

296:13,19,20

297:21

298:1,13,15

299:13,20

300:3,15

301:18,19

302:3,6,8 303:21

310:5 311:13,17

316:8 328:15,19

329:5,7 341:4

cost-effective

310:10,17

311:10

cost-effectiveness

310:21

costs 114:4 296:14

298:15,22

300:12 310:7

334:6

Council 2:10 3:5

counsel 2:15 5:6

count 186:20

counterintuitive

334:3

countries 20:7

country 20:10

33:13 93:17

269:3

couple 8:19 13:16

41:16 57:21

129:22 130:2

198:19 205:14

270:5 282:21

300:10 302:14

305:19 310:11

338:19 342:6,20

347:12 351:1

coupled 77:8

course 285:11,14

332:4 343:11

352:20

Court 354:3,6

355:1,3,18

cover 9:1,19 59:20

77:9 84:9,10

100:19 112:5

136:20 152:16

154:12,14,18

156:7 188:15

225:15 231:21

253:13 261:18

275:16,18 353:2

coverage 7:15

26:11 98:1

232:21 298:4

349:8

covered 7:15

10:14 30:3 34:6

58:15 74:1,5,9

77:7,15,18,22

78:1 84:16 89:3

91:1 108:7

119:14 121:20

124:12 137:9

138:16,20 139:8

141:5,19,20

142:1 151:8

156:2 158:2

162:8 209:9,11

214:6,14,16

215:5,8 225:10

233:6,10 237:9

238:15 242:21

246:20

247:12,17 249:4

250:15 251:5

255:15 312:14

349:9,18 350:20

covering 9:2 71:8

140:14 222:19

223:12,13

257:16 350:13

covers 152:13

177:17 180:22

194:5 210:1

CP1 287:13

CP2 339:9

CP3 339:9

craft 112:5

create 14:5 234:18

created 81:21

creates 254:15

creating 253:17

creeping 225:8

criteria 34:17

critical 350:15

croissants 351:12

cross 319:2
Capital Reporting Company

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www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014

crossed 319:4

crosswalk

81:19,21

crowd 144:8

crude 216:3

crunched 331:2

cube 217:16

cubic 105:16

curious 315:17

335:16

current

293:8,11,12,13

currently 146:3

168:9 260:3

291:10 298:4

curve 62:5

212:14,15,20

216:4,8 221:3

233:19 315:17

318:6 323:2

customer 109:10

311:14

cut 213:11 216:6,7

cutting 216:5

307:4

cycle 45:10 189:8

311:21

D

D.C 1:14 4:9 83:2

146:13 351:16

Dan 3:7 285:20

299:18

dark 241:11

darned 83:15

310:10

dashed 314:12

318:18 321:5

324:21 328:2

data 9:16 16:6

17:16 18:11,12

35:12 64:4,5,6

84:5 91:16

127:19,20

212:17 232:22

233:1 262:9

265:4,6,8,11,14,

15 266:4,22

267:7 268:12,18

269:9 278:11

279:11 280:12

281:18,22

282:4,5 284:20

296:18,19

298:5,8 299:19

300:1,4,16,21

303:15 312:4,19

313:4,12 324:16

330:2 338:16

346:8

data-gathering

303:17

Date 354:12

day 6:13 89:12

90:17 98:21

99:13 118:20

119:3 124:15

126:21 127:4

169:9 182:5,11

199:20 242:9

259:3 270:5

289:9,11,20

Day-Glo 241:15

days 14:13 129:18

345:22 346:6,7

deal 18:2 41:2

52:13 69:17

127:4 251:20

268:1 349:11

dealing 8:9 20:8

45:10 50:7,14

51:15 62:20

108:1

dealt 55:8 130:7

decide 11:20

44:8,14 51:18

80:17 136:19

200:9 275:16

283:5

decided 83:11

116:12 351:20

decides 77:9

190:16

deciding 184:7

205:3

decision 44:15

71:11 74:22

83:21 87:8,10

104:5,20 120:9

131:20 200:6

305:17

344:5,14,16

345:17

decision-making

169:10

decisions 20:3

237:2

deep 300:1

default 69:13

78:21

Defense 3:5

defensible 97:18

define 7:12,14,15

12:9 49:9 50:22

56:19 69:6,13

73:17 75:8 76:18

77:2,4,14 78:19

80:5,19

81:2,3,5,6 82:2

92:16 95:6,20

103:21,22

105:18 112:7,16

115:15,20

116:3,10,11

119:14 123:5

148:4 158:6

182:7 183:2

226:16 228:9

252:20 342:7

344:16,17

348:21 349:7

defined 39:14 45:7

57:19,21 75:10

79:18,19 94:4

122:20 123:3

125:21 136:15

157:5,12 158:17

171:14 180:10

183:1 295:7

348:20 349:18

defines 78:7 100:5

139:15

defining 80:4

100:18 112:18

113:1 115:12

125:17 182:3,4

227:15

definitely 129:16

166:3 337:20

351:15

definition 24:19

29:5 30:2,4

34:2,16 47:3

52:11 53:17 56:6

59:19 66:16 67:3

74:4,9,15 76:5,9

78:14,15,16,22

79:13,22 82:1

83:19,22 84:3,7

87:20,21 88:5

90:17,21,22

91:4,7,17,21

98:5,8,13 100:5
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104:5,7 111:2

120:15 121:11

122:5 128:16

129:6 130:10

136:5,12,16

137:3,15

138:6,22

140:12,13

142:18 143:3

144:18 145:8,20

146:18 148:17

151:7 153:7

155:15,17 158:8

161:12 163:18

164:1,3,4 165:7

166:4 170:19

172:13 177:16

178:1,4 179:2

183:1

185:10,11,12

193:1 206:15

211:10 212:5

227:12,13

228:11 229:6

240:17 250:10

253:13 256:4

258:10 270:3

295:14 325:6

342:3 344:5,22

345:10,18

350:1,3

definitions 44:3,21

51:1 57:16,17

60:22 67:22

83:10 87:11

110:1,20,21,22

112:6,10 135:21

143:2 166:17

170:4,8

186:2,8,13

187:19 222:17

225:7 226:6,12

228:19,20

229:5,16 240:5

definitive 55:6,12

degree 25:2

156:11

degrees 237:20

delay 16:8

delayed 23:12

delegation 169:12

deleted 272:21

delivering 338:20

delta 297:3

299:9,13

delta-p 338:22

delta-t 338:22

denominator

326:17

Department

1:3,13 6:7 10:17

44:20 107:4

303:20 348:15

Department's 10:5

348:12

dependent 62:5

depending 21:3

207:16 336:9

depends 27:4

40:15 69:6

171:19 218:1

220:11 292:14

339:2

derail 199:9

describe 146:16

247:9

described 43:2

74:21 123:20

161:15 181:14

193:12 241:20

describing 65:6

83:7 138:3

205:10

description 46:18

61:4 68:11 186:6

descriptions 61:4

descriptive 131:2

descriptor 46:19

design 39:12 45:20

80:6,11 85:2

104:12 106:21

107:1 110:12

197:18,21

198:16 203:9,11

210:10 218:4

219:15 232:9,13

235:13,14

237:19 311:7

320:19 339:4

designate 27:17

28:1

designated 59:18

90:4

designation 88:17

108:12

designators 57:22

designed 79:15

81:3,7 87:9

104:8,21

110:4,7,10

113:11 115:7

121:6,7 130:8

157:9 191:15

194:18,21

195:11 198:10

218:1,22 219:4,7

221:14,18 225:9

229:2 232:19

233:5 237:20

designer 218:1

designers 218:14

designing

197:13,20

198:15

destructive 32:2

55:3

detail 46:16

detailed 8:1

163:18 169:2

determine 89:2

111:7 183:2

222:2 233:7

determined 77:15

98:1,4 201:13

224:17 232:16

242:13

determines 333:15

determining 84:17

87:6 301:22

develop 120:5

developed 17:11

development

41:21 325:8

device 137:18

148:17 149:4

159:1 170:10

171:4 177:20

178:18 180:16

183:15 184:21

devices 32:4

117:16

devil's 89:1

diagram 72:14,15

138:11,17

139:22

162:6,9,10,11

164:22 317:16

diagrams 163:22

dialogue 75:5

diameter 59:6

130:22 131:8,9
Capital Reporting Company

Commerical and Industrial Pumps Working Group Meeting 03-04-2014

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133:4 135:3,5

188:14,19

237:17,22

320:15,16

diameters 130:15

218:12

diesel 27:6 173:21

174:3,6 184:16

diesel-driven

34:2,7 184:15

diesels 34:10 35:2

difference 54:2

85:20 90:11

140:14 156:9

298:16 308:14

323:21 324:5

333:7

differences 58:19

121:6 135:8,11

202:4 204:22

206:19

different 16:14,15

17:8

18:3,7,9,10,16

27:11 28:6 32:6

44:21 47:10

54:1,18 55:4

56:8 60:17

69:4,5 74:6,7

83:10 87:3 113:2

169:13 184:19

188:20 190:5

192:3 205:22

211:15 226:5

234:12

251:19,20

253:4,6,8 257:3

258:1 264:21

282:21 293:4

294:2 295:3

302:19 305:20

315:1 320:22

321:12 328:3,20

330:13 331:7,16

334:7 337:1

339:6,16

differential 296:14

336:19

differentiates

108:13

differently 78:8

131:6

difficult 16:20

81:2 230:19

285:3

difficulty 127:14

diffuser 271:15

279:19

Digital 355:18

dilemma 111:10

122:14

direct 26:17 182:5

direction 235:20

239:11 260:22

355:7

directly 50:7,14

175:8,17

176:18,20,21

177:4,7

disaggregated

284:20

disagreeing 97:9

disciplined 252:3

discovered 120:18

discuss 9:16 62:8

346:22 348:16

discussed 15:22

75:17,21 79:10

134:8 169:8

173:13

214:19,20

241:16

discussing 129:1

223:4 347:13

discussion 7:1,7

57:8 59:2 60:15

62:12 68:16,17

112:12 124:14

127:9 128:12,15

130:21 131:3

133:8,9 144:18

147:13,15,22

148:21 170:7

188:18 189:14

200:16 241:3

265:2 280:20

284:18

discussions 8:8

12:16 16:1

displacement

125:20 229:3

display 202:3

disruptions 6:10

dissolved 105:17

154:3,4,5,11

155:4 159:2

distinction 160:7

distinctive 115:8

138:7

distinguish 69:7

84:21 107:20

108:6

distinguishing

153:4

distributed 107:15

295:15,17

distributor 161:5

diverse 343:2

Divide 293:9

divided 289:10

document 10:12

91:12

documented

133:12

DOE 2:5,15 5:6,7

7:8 10:15,16

11:8 30:1 44:2

49:8 50:22 51:7

69:10 79:11

81:19 82:2 83:20

96:12 97:13,20

102:21,22

103:4,19 107:13

124:4 140:12

142:6,19

145:7,15,19

147:16 151:20

158:5 159:6

183:19 191:6

200:1 234:3

246:5 257:6,16

260:11,12

290:14 295:13

297:22 344:13

348:9 352:4

DOE-caliber

329:20

DOE's 15:13,19

18:5,15 79:17

82:7 147:7 167:9

246:11 256:21

DOE-type 291:18

dollar 311:17

dollars 302:4

domestic

289:12,22 339:1

343:3

done 58:11 59:11

75:20 83:6 99:17

101:10 118:12

123:19 127:6,19

145:19 164:13
Capital Reporting Company

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www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014

173:6 188:7

245:11 261:15

268:5 269:20

280:20,22 281:9

291:10 298:5

305:14 317:15

330:1 349:4

350:7

door 128:14

dotted 318:3,21

double 223:21

266:9 275:2

276:1,19,22

324:11 335:9

doubt 40:5

Doug 2:3 4:11

14:10 23:8 43:20

101:2 137:2

144:5 156:20,21

157:14,15

164:17 175:4

177:12,14

178:19,21

185:13 199:11

242:10 312:18

343:16 347:21

DOUGLAS 2:19

downstairs 37:14

downstream 350:9

drainage 54:15

draw 26:18 62:5

287:6 288:11

319:8 320:10

drawing 45:12

336:7

drew 319:4

drive 173:19 175:9

177:6 249:15

driven 27:7

174:4,21

driver 137:20

138:7,15,18

141:4,9,19,22

148:20 159:5

160:13 161:21

162:16 163:6

170:12 172:7

173:15,18 175:1

176:13 177:5,21

178:1,4,18 179:4

180:17

183:16,19

185:6,7,11 186:3

194:22 196:4

201:6 251:6

drivers 39:1

175:5,7,9 184:22

185:1 237:21

drives 193:21

drop 57:1,2

213:21

drop-off 322:17

dropped

213:12,14 214:1

drops 318:7

due 6:11

268:12,14

duplex 42:12,13

duplicate 268:6,7

E

eager 42:22

earlier 106:14

115:7,19 130:16

184:2,13 207:10

240:6 255:19

270:5 294:4

330:15

early 256:22

351:11

easier 45:3 62:6

81:5 110:22

116:11

easiest 113:22

easily 69:6

East 6:5

Eckman 2:10 5:22

14:9,10,13,20

32:9 83:3 127:16

143:14,17 146:6

186:20 238:11

ECM 194:18

287:18 288:9

291:11

296:15,20

300:10 302:2,9

323:16,19

324:3,11

ECMs 292:5

economic 18:9

332:5

economical

336:8,13

economically

18:14

Edison 2:22

edit 156:16,17

edited 137:18

156:19 166:4,9

186:8

editing 240:22

edition 196:14

editorial

156:14,22

edits 38:9 75:17

137:22 138:2

139:18 166:14

188:11 280:3

EEI 2:22 101:6

138:10 183:9

194:11 246:17

257:15 286:8

292:22 295:22

331:8 333:14,16

337:7 339:18

effect 253:14

effective 54:8

257:10 311:14

318:1

Effectively 171:18

effectiveness 310:6

329:7

effects 334:6

338:11

efficiencies

268:18,19

efficiency 1:4 3:2

39:5,6 57:5

110:17 122:11

140:21 144:19

145:3

182:6,9,13,16,19

197:5 220:18,20

221:1 232:11

233:9 235:16

249:6,10 259:21

266:1 286:17

287:1,2 308:1

310:2 316:5

321:3,7

322:15,20

323:21

324:2,7,9,11

325:3,6

326:11,19

327:11,18

332:14,17

336:22 338:20

efficient 18:10
Capital Reporting Company

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www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014

93:7 219:19

314:19 317:9

318:2,9,18

319:21 326:21

effort 269:17

298:6 299:21

346:8

efforts 269:18

eight 19:8 194:12

322:16 325:12

Eighteen 196:1

eight-pole 194:14

either 8:22 14:14

25:22 26:21

51:12 68:6

80:19,22 99:2

117:14 122:13

136:17 159:8

160:4,5 164:11

179:19 207:2

227:20 233:6

244:17 273:2

289:7 328:14

electric 2:22

30:2,5 173:20

177:8 257:16,18

328:15,19

329:13 337:13

electrical 32:4

179:17 302:4

Electrically

336:13

electricity 117:16

301:19 302:7,15

303:21

element 19:6

109:21

elements 6:20

138:7

eliminate 176:2

eliminated 245:17

elimination 95:18

else 29:15 51:6

52:1 69:12

78:13,21 86:12

88:19 116:16

125:15 202:21

221:5 281:14

326:7 345:13

350:13,19

email 10:11

143:15,16 147:9

emerged 264:18

emerges 112:14

Emily 351:10

employ 110:1

employed 22:12

355:9

enable 283:10

endeavoring

315:11

energy 1:3,4,13

3:2 6:7 16:9 57:5

107:4,13 110:16

117:9,13 122:11

144:19 145:3

173:15 180:8

183:6,14,16

197:5 210:7

266:1 282:7,20

283:2,17 301:22

302:4 305:7

307:3,13 308:15

310:2,9

311:15,18

314:14,18

326:17

327:17,18,22

330:13 341:6

energy-saving

117:21 312:9

enforce 87:19

93:12,14 96:15

enforceable 87:22

88:6

enforced 87:11

93:18

enforcement 87:8

105:1 119:11

128:20 161:8

344:7

enforcing 90:20

engaged 20:9,16

engine 173:21

174:3,5 177:8

engineered 78:8

225:5,6,8

engineering 38:19

78:7 314:2

engines 174:4

195:10

entire 91:15 216:8

entrained

152:4,6,10,11,13

,17 153:1,15,19

154:6,8,9,21

155:2,3 159:1

entry 169:2

envision 317:11

equal 29:21,22

46:13

equally 160:2

equals 25:13 26:3

39:21 40:11

equation 322:12

equipment 33:20

36:16 56:10

137:20

138:8,15,18

140:7,8 141:4,9

148:19 159:5

160:12 161:21

162:16 163:6

170:11 172:6

173:11,14,20

175:10,11

176:1,3,9,19

177:2,7 185:11

186:3 225:5

297:8

equivalent 30:6

31:12 291:11

erase 162:8

Erica 6:2

error 334:20

especially 10:18

138:16 140:12

246:19 247:3

273:21 301:6

313:19 341:19

essentially 17:14

74:22 75:1 82:3

150:18 183:7

209:9 235:7

256:18

establishes 107:4

establishing 18:13

233:8

estimate 282:8

291:18 292:7,19

298:1 305:4

312:9 328:9

329:6 349:2

estimated 302:8

estimating 341:6

et 50:13 54:17

87:13 123:7

EU 60:16 61:12
Capital Reporting Company

Commerical and Industrial Pumps Working Group Meeting 03-04-2014

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64:7 94:1 105:9

111:14 122:19

123:4 124:5,22

125:10,16 126:5

135:7 151:11

155:11,15,16

156:9 201:20,21

202:2,4,8 203:6

204:3,7,8,20

205:3,16,18

206:1,20 209:20

211:2 215:12,21

216:5 220:15

222:17 223:1

224:6,10,11,15

225:15,22

226:11 227:1,5

229:17 230:4,12

258:15 305:14

322:18

Europe 102:18

306:10 308:2

310:5,9 322:14

European 306:12

331:10 333:13

Europeans 123:21

214:6

EUs 226:13

evaluating 84:19

event 6:14 107:20

eventually 68:6

164:21 259:8

everybody 22:17

23:6 30:16 31:1

43:1 51:22 57:9

64:22 88:19

91:18 126:8

134:7 156:18

165:7 169:9

172:11 175:3

182:2 202:20,21

209:15 240:22

268:22 270:6

301:2 305:1

313:18 352:10

353:7

everybody's 36:22

306:15

everyone 4:2 8:19

30:4 53:9 54:2

130:14 131:4

166:1 167:10

186:11 202:3

237:1 270:1

everyone's 133:14

everything 9:10

23:12 26:13 68:6

69:12 115:9

121:5 125:15

150:7 152:8

162:8 164:21

177:17 200:7

227:5 228:20

230:3 236:8,9

250:8 268:20,21

323:15 345:13

exact 19:10 192:8

210:4 216:9

311:21

exactly 14:1

49:19,20 52:16

53:3 110:9

137:12 141:1,8

142:22 179:6,8

184:7 191:14

201:20

210:10,15 211:3

215:21 316:15

333:5 342:15

examination 45:22

55:3

example 25:8 54:6

66:14 88:2

103:18 105:9

109:8 110:21

117:22 140:15

164:2 177:20

181:2 294:19

302:22 312:15

examples 101:15

exceed 261:18

exceeds 307:17

except 7:18

74:13,15,16 90:8

93:9 120:13

130:7 226:15

235:20 250:11

excerpts 228:8

excess 37:12

exclude 12:3 24:8

69:9 79:1 92:19

112:9 116:13

149:5 150:18

151:16,17 174:4

181:17 191:6

198:20 199:13

200:9 241:18

242:4 243:7

244:17 246:13

excluded 57:3 61:1

69:7 71:8,10

73:10,11 74:2

77:6 78:21 81:6

87:12 120:3

122:4 125:21

150:1 184:11

200:7 213:22

215:11 237:3

242:15 243:13

245:18 248:1,5

265:1 344:18

excludes 171:9

excluding 69:2,11

71:5 91:5 140:6

170:11 171:5,10

172:6 205:2

208:3 223:1

241:11,22 246:1

266:5

exclusion 52:10

65:15 70:18

71:17,18 81:4

98:22 123:16

133:9 148:1,3

242:19

exclusions 7:20

22:9,14 52:3

56:18 66:8 69:17

71:15 72:1 77:15

78:20 83:12,14

92:16 112:6

121:20

128:11,19

133:12 136:8,14

137:10

240:10,21

349:9,12,14

exclusively 111:8

Excuse 181:4

196:11 247:7

exempt 275:18

exists 108:18,21

257:9

exotic 42:18,19

expand 38:20

215:1

expands 35:6

expect 265:9 273:2

311:10,13 328:4

expecting 6:12

60:10,13

expeditious 11:2

expense 89:16

expensive 41:18

42:3 46:8 198:1
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experience 37:8

38:20 56:4

271:21 312:4

explain 32:21

49:19 84:12,13

164:20 215:4

288:17

explained 164:22

165:3

explaining 15:13

explains 164:20

express 103:13

expressed 278:20

extension 329:2

extent 12:4 133:16

142:19 246:13

295:15,18 334:6

extra 156:22

311:17

extreme 336:3

Exxon 25:10

eyes 242:3

F

FACILITATOR

2:2

facility 25:4 50:3

109:15 314:1

fact 18:2 35:21

36:1 40:5 107:21

145:21 254:20

335:17 338:6

factor 218:10,11

274:2 291:20

292:18

factoring 267:21

factors 25:1 39:12

219:22 220:2

221:10 226:21

229:9 341:8

Factory 24:21

fail 114:14

fair 124:2 174:13

201:22 323:22

324:19,21 329:9

fairly 37:15

121:21 215:17

268:9 303:2

fall 26:11 87:14

90:8 126:3 209:9

210:3 232:20

248:9 303:3

331:6,9 333:16

falling 266:17

falls 213:4 234:14

familiar 14:1

272:10

fancy 218:16

farther 180:9

222:1

fast 112:17

336:4,18

faster 220:4

fastest 318:12

340:17

favor 165:9 186:7

238:1 241:22

favorable 332:5

fear 125:1 126:18

feasibility 7:8

10:16 199:22

348:9

feasible 16:4 18:14

feature 145:18

federal 1:8 6:9

7:3,5 45:18 53:3

257:9 348:4,7

feedback 180:19

181:8

feeds 181:15

feel 9:1 78:13 85:6

160:15 179:11

187:11 191:12

feeling 13:3,4

16:21

feelings 7:17

feels 69:10 229:20

feet 203:20

204:2,10

207:18,20,21

211:3,22 214:13

215:21 217:1

218:15 254:5

fell 233:21 234:6

felt 123:5

Fernstrom 2:11

82:17,18,20 83:4

86:17 111:4

119:21,22

120:5,11,17

122:7,10 124:19

125:3 126:16

127:22 128:6

145:2 146:2

147:5 151:15,21

159:12

172:14,17

186:22 187:3,7

201:1 231:4,5,8

241:10 242:17

243:1,8,14

244:3,8,15,20

245:2,16 246:22

247:11,16

248:3,16,20

250:2,7,18 251:8

252:16,19

253:2,12 254:2,7

255:7 256:6,9,13

259:12,18

261:5,12,20

263:9 269:12

309:22 312:8,18

313:2,9,13,16,22

315:19

316:2,11,14,21

320:21

321:15,19 322:1

323:9 325:21

326:3 327:19

329:13,15,18

330:9,14

331:5,18,21

332:3,12

333:1,5,13

334:2,4,19

335:8,19

336:12,16

337:4,10,15

338:10 341:6,17

352:12 353:5

ferries 56:5

fewer 167:12

209:10 223:13

fide 126:11

field 95:10 127:2

193:17

Fifteen 186:17,19

figure 81:14

104:10 221:22

245:7 264:5

figuring 23:14

84:19 222:7

fill 126:4

filled 192:13

filtration

145:13,16
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final 22:3 65:13

66:4 93:10

118:17 124:17

240:5,11 305:16

333:10

finalizing 52:2

finally 346:14

financial 355:10

fine 14:11 47:18

73:12 141:15

158:18,19 165:1

167:14,17

173:12 177:4

178:15,16

190:22 195:18

196:5 197:10

271:21 286:8

290:7

finish 254:8 291:1

348:14

finished 247:19

finishing 65:4

fire 23:17,19 24:8

25:6,13,15

26:3,14,19 27:5

29:7 30:2,5,15

33:5,12 35:2,5

36:17 37:10 47:1

66:15 70:16 71:5

74:17 83:7,10

87:12 99:15

125:19 240:8,13

241:17,18 254:4

firefighting 229:2

firm 225:10

firms 38:19

first 6:18 7:3

30:18 87:10

95:12 104:21

105:13 126:14

128:3 130:8

135:22 149:1

177:17 180:15

183:11,20 185:5

226:8 228:7

237:8,14 238:3

245:12 249:10

254:20 326:14

334:12,14,16

335:15 348:5

fit 137:17 187:3

five 9:10 39:19

42:9 229:16

244:5 268:22

292:1 296:12

307:5 310:16

322:18,19 329:1

fixed 21:14 54:14

flag 119:8

flagged 119:8

flat 254:10

flexibility 161:11

flexible 256:2

flip 135:1 163:17

float 181:6 182:14

floated 352:4

floating 26:21

343:9,14

floor 45:9 238:20

239:4,5,22

flow 37:5 59:5

65:19 70:10

202:7 228:11

254:6 315:22

316:2 320:4,11

325:10 326:3,10

340:10,11

flowchart 129:3

flowing 253:16

flows 338:2

Flowserve 2:20

5:4 19:12 20:1

fluid 27:3

50:4,8,15 105:15

111:9 114:22

115:14 154:13

192:13 256:5

338:7 339:4

fluid-filled 192:15

fluids 45:10

150:17 153:5

154:2 155:8

flushed 224:20

FM 24:9,21 28:17

29:11 31:12,21

33:3 35:22 37:6

FM/UL 35:4

FM-approved

27:20,22 28:4

33:18

focus 262:5

focused 308:20

folded 275:19

folks 8:20 12:16

55:22 57:5

143:10 197:5

205:7 243:22

252:2 339:7

follow-on 7:9,13

10:15,16 11:4

12:5 17:3 56:3

91:10 200:1

348:10

follow-up 284:14

348:18

food-grade

58:16,21

foregoing 170:7

355:4

foregoing/

attached 354:7

foreign 108:14,16

foresee 10:21

forget 95:13

167:20 243:18

325:3

forgot 256:22

290:8

form 126:4 243:7

forming 261:16

forms 131:16

formula 301:17

Forrestal 1:13

forth 34:14 38:6

69:2 352:6

forward 14:21

353:10

foundations 54:12

four-inch 131:3

four-pole 191:16

195:4,14 207:5

214:4

Fourteen 242:7

266:15 309:12

fourth 349:6

frame 106:16,20

184:18 271:18

framework 91:12

116:8 120:14

264:19

France 28:9

Francisco 352:2

frank 147:18

frankly 120:11
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free 105:15

154:3,10 155:3,4

159:2

Freeman 2:12

5:16,21

friends 34:22

300:17 322:5

front 7:1 8:15

16:10 18:18

22:18 210:21

252:22 253:3

255:5 272:5,8

fuel 173:22

full 57:10 82:22

133:21 134:1

212:20 256:7

283:1

285:16,18,19

288:5,6 289:22

291:10

331:19,20,21

full-load 282:20

fully 31:6 75:17

127:15 188:5

214:19,21

240:12 349:16

function 337:1

functional 332:15

fundamental 84:3

111:5

funding 127:5

funny 46:5

future 41:11

352:19

G

Gaelic 38:16

gained 353:9

gaining 224:8

gallons 37:12

314:13,18,19

315:22 316:6

317:10 325:1,12

327:21

335:18,19,21

Gary 2:11 9:14,16

22:4 82:17 83:2

86:17 111:3

119:21 122:7,10

124:2,17 127:20

145:1,2 147:6,21

151:15

159:11,12

167:3,4,5 186:22

200:22 201:1

231:4,5

241:9,10,14

242:12 243:20

244:16,22 245:2

246:6 252:8

253:12 254:11

255:7,13,18

256:6 259:12

261:5,21 263:8,9

269:12 294:9

309:21,22

312:7,8,18

313:22 318:14

323:4,10,15

324:15 325:21

327:19 329:9

332:7 334:16

335:14 352:1,12

353:5,8

Gary's 325:10

gas 153:15 154:6,8

173:21

174:3,6,11,18

184:17 195:10

337:12

gas/diesel

174:14,16,17

gas/steam

174:15,21 177:9

gases 152:4,11,16

153:1 154:9,21

155:2 159:2

gasoline 174:4

gasoline-powered

174:6

gather 16:7

gathered 304:15

gathering 17:16

346:8

GC 151:20 159:6

257:6

Gear 34:14

Gee 188:6 266:2

geek 304:22

general 2:15 5:6

6:22 19:16 41:12

84:15 103:13

132:18,22

142:18 184:1

186:6 198:1

256:19 258:2

292:7 333:4

generalities

306:17

generally 16:11

153:5 187:8

198:1 342:21

generic 177:16

generous 352:18

gets 40:3 109:18

112:17 127:2

153:20 168:6

242:6 322:21

330:12 336:2

getting 17:21

31:11,13 33:5

46:16 55:22

76:21 88:9

127:14 142:20

160:16

215:7,10,13

224:14 225:7

252:3

273:6,8,11,13

277:20 300:15

304:12 314:17

320:11 324:4

340:21

given 82:22 83:20

107:12 131:17

220:14 235:5

325:9

gives 147:9 155:16

184:3 191:1

291:20

giving 8:1 45:13

246:15

glad 4:3 6:14

14:21 15:2,7

23:11 50:18

55:21 82:19

127:12

glass 239:17

glows 241:11

goal 68:5

gone 68:15 81:8

83:8 89:15

121:18 130:12

131:12 180:13

185:9,22 199:18

249:7,9,13 327:7

336:5 352:5

Google 196:15

gotcha 40:8 59:1

129:4 172:17
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287:5,7

gotten 198:19

government 45:18

99:8 267:11

governors 185:1

gpm 61:6 237:18

gradient 114:12

249:17

granted 118:3

graph 331:18

graphic 138:5

graphs 314:22

gravity-fed 54:16

gray 117:11

grease-packed

54:11

great 14:13,19

23:3 56:5 83:4

111:20 117:6

162:20 172:19

187:20 240:17

259:1,2 262:22

268:1 270:20

312:12,13,21

313:11

greater 105:16

237:18 250:20

259:13,16

282:15 284:17

291:14 310:4

327:2 328:5

greatly 307:16

green

264:12,13,16

268:20

271:4,10,12

275:8

Greg 2:9 3:4 4:19

55:8,18 56:1

57:20 58:12 65:2

81:9,10 84:1,2

85:11,12

102:13,14,15

105:11

112:14,16

115:18 116:2

152:1 192:14

202:10,11

203:4,5

207:14,15

208:1,16

213:19,20

214:10,11,17,22

215:3,6

216:15,22 218:3

219:11,12 224:1

225:2,3,14 232:4

233:13,14

253:20 255:14

258:13,14,15,19

322:22 342:1,4

343:11

grid 288:2 338:6

ground 9:1 26:22

167:7,11

169:8,10 170:1

238:16 353:10

group 1:9 4:8,9

11:3 12:2,18

13:20 16:1,2

19:3,21 21:12,14

26:3 39:21 41:22

44:15 46:13 55:5

56:7 69:1 76:4

77:9 81:13

83:9,11 92:2

94:4 107:5

117:10 123:4

135:11 142:21

148:16 166:5

167:2,11 170:3

190:16 199:2

200:9 238:3

267:12,13

305:14 308:8

330:7 343:5

348:17,18

352:21 353:4,15

grouping 8:8

groups 25:19

28:20 226:5

group's 122:14

Grundfos 3:4

202:11 207:15

208:16 214:11

216:22 219:12

258:14

G's 46:10

guarantee 42:5

guess 12:10 20:20

36:7 38:1 67:21

68:13,17 78:2

103:12 116:21

142:7 152:22

166:16 174:10

187:15 196:21

204:8 205:4

211:13 221:17

222:10 225:12

231:9 237:14

238:14 242:5

256:17 275:15

286:21 292:14

322:15 330:11

342:5

guidance 104:15

guideline 24:18

94:4 258:16

guidelines 95:6

guides 192:4

guy 94:22 98:15

340:21

guys 37:20 39:4

44:14 52:6 60:13

78:4 87:18 88:13

99:22 105:5

117:7 118:11

119:5 123:2

126:22 224:11

270:15 280:20

298:14 300:13

302:22 306:16

335:6 337:5

342:16

H

half 118:20 124:15

177:22 178:4,14

250:14 263:10

304:4 307:2

308:19 331:3

half-horsepower

260:21

hall 82:11

hand 127:2 165:19

186:9 238:4

288:3,4

handle 279:1

handling 77:6 78:9

79:19 87:12

110:20 111:1

116:13

handout 24:7

65:13

hands 165:8,9,10

169:15 186:10

238:5 242:1,2

263:6

Handzel 2:13 4:18

11:16,19

12:8,13,17,21

13:11 60:10

63:8,12,20 64:4

67:12 73:16,22

74:11 78:11
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80:3,9 91:22

103:21 110:3

113:22 114:4

115:22

158:10,12

175:19 177:3

195:22 208:8

212:18

216:2,3,14

270:16,18

271:3,6 276:9

277:7 278:11,17

288:16 289:14

297:4,7 299:4,7

300:6,7 301:6

303:18

304:3,7,10 306:4

307:1,9

309:3,6,15,17

316:17 335:1

340:1,3,6,14

Hang 175:2

276:20

happen 11:7 13:21

17:6 79:17

167:21 203:16

334:9

happened 123:9

303:10

happens 124:16

224:19 230:16

happy 94:22 196:5

222:17,20

224:11 342:16

hard 72:14 80:11

85:5 116:9 278:8

316:3

harm 122:1

hate 15:15 339:11

haven't 56:5 57:4

59:17 68:15 71:7

121:18 122:3,12

128:6 131:22

180:13 197:4

243:13 298:4

311:2 314:4

316:22 324:16

336:5 339:8

344:8 351:20

having 16:15 62:9

72:13 83:15 85:5

91:12 133:6

195:17 203:15

280:20

head 61:6 65:19

70:10 128:7,9

202:5,7,22

204:3,6,7,11

205:8 208:2,7,17

211:6,15,22

212:3 213:10

214:3,5,17

215:10,14,15,18

221:4,6 222:12

224:6 225:20,22

228:10 237:18

250:18 262:6

317:17,19

326:10

headed 341:14

header 200:4

237:4

heads 65:11

173:16 177:10

214:20

hear 14:10,11

34:16 49:15

58:12 146:10,11

149:7 257:4

258:4 340:20

heard 121:5

190:12 196:22

197:4 249:2,20

256:21 305:18

hearing 134:17

185:5 257:3

heat 314:20

315:13 336:22

340:21

heating 283:8

288:19,20 289:7

290:6 314:16

328:12 336:20

337:9,11

heavily 45:5

heavy 35:1

he'd 85:15

held 263:21

help 31:19 39:4

41:13 47:17 87:4

90:15 93:21

105:7 108:22

125:12 136:9,10

160:5 161:7

182:9,16,19

191:21 193:22

205:20 206:16

211:1 235:3

243:2,4 306:1

348:4

helped 131:20

helpful 44:18

79:16 135:13

138:12 205:1

216:12 232:15

235:4 271:2

303:13 312:2

330:3 344:15

helps 106:17

184:14

hereby 354:3

355:4

here's 126:8

313:15

hertz 207:5,6

211:14,16

he's 27:18 33:4

136:11 143:18

163:20 224:4

232:8 320:11

340:20

Hey 56:13 340:21

HI 54:2 57:15,20

58:19 59:10

60:19 81:10 84:2

85:12 102:15

112:16 116:2

122:22 135:8

152:1 188:19

189:1,12

190:11,13,17

199:1,5

200:4,5,15

201:12,14

202:12 204:20

213:20 215:6

220:13 223:3

225:3 233:16

237:4,5 264:9

265:7 266:22

270:10,14 272:4

276:5 282:13,22

288:17 294:5

304:1 342:18

346:7 347:7

hide 285:10

high 117:14

219:15 307:14

320:3

high-efficiency

302:5

higher 114:12

205:8 209:8

218:18 327:3

328:4

high-speed 216:7
Capital Reporting Company

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high-stage 209:2

high-volume

117:17

hinges 145:10

hinted 335:16

hire 105:11

HI's 81:22 236:20

264:18 270:12

hit 319:15

hold 28:6,9 60:1

345:13

holds 254:12

honest 53:21 55:11

Honestly 343:16

Hop 57:18

hope 27:14 51:21

52:1 131:4

261:20 267:14

268:16

hoped 268:4

283:11

hopefully 266:21

299:21

hoping 67:6 347:5

hopper 312:15

horizontal 27:9

271:9 272:15

horse 212:4

250:11 260:6

horsepower 26:12

61:5 63:5,7

64:12 65:9 70:12

72:3 111:19

117:15 192:6,7

198:22

202:14,15

203:12 204:10

205:8

208:11,15,18

217:8,15 226:8,9

244:5 250:21

257:21

259:13,16

260:17 262:2

274:1,2

282:15,16

284:16,17 285:8

286:3,9,14,16,21

291:12 293:2,3,6

317:3 320:15

330:18 335:5

horsepowers

273:22

host 352:18

hot 289:13,22

314:16 328:13

hotel 246:20

247:11,22

hour 314:13,18,19

315:6 316:6

327:21

328:16,20

335:20,22 336:1

hours 282:21

283:2,4,5,11

288:17

289:9,11,20

291:15,16

296:16 301:18

302:1 305:5

307:1,2 308:4,21

313:6,20 315:8

328:9 329:6

330:19 331:13

house 133:22

134:2 249:18

326:12

houses 56:9

hp 237:17

Huber 2:14 4:17

12:22 13:1,2,10

14:8 16:12,13

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113:15 116:17

120:6 122:20

123:5,16 129:22

148:1 169:22

172:1 194:1

238:12

240:10,21

262:12 264:3

268:22 269:5

276:18 277:14

341:22 347:7,20

349:14 350:12

listed 6:21 25:21

37:6 39:19

74:1,15 126:22

170:9 171:20

188:12 236:7

266:2 281:10

listen 20:14

listening 117:6

listing 31:11 33:2

36:15,18 37:1

litany 34:5 40:18

literally 101:17

115:3

literature 85:14,18

87:22 88:1,3,4

little 11:9 24:1

47:21 61:19

62:16 65:3 69:3

72:14,17 76:18

85:13 86:3

111:10 118:18

120:22 122:2

125:22 131:21

142:19 143:9,13

170:6 192:15

204:19 213:6,16

221:22 224:20

230:12,19

238:19 241:5

252:3 262:4

273:10 283:6

286:22 303:7

312:9 313:5,19

315:17 320:22

328:7 336:6

341:21

lives 310:19

Lloyd's 28:19

load 23:1,2,14

197:19 267:21

283:2

285:17,18,19

288:5,6 291:10

322:13,22

local 56:9

location 352:1

logic 22:12

80:20,21 92:14

111:22 115:19

116:22 120:9

123:21 158:1

160:9 264:7

273:16

logical 323:16

logically 108:22

London 28:19

long 142:16

153:14 164:19

249:7,13 252:9

268:16 311:2

329:2 346:1

longer 18:16 170:2

296:10 303:4

336:9

loop 180:19

181:8,13,14

253:16 336:5

loophole 86:22

loose 344:10

loosely 42:6

lose 351:4

losing 169:6

lost 58:20 115:18

122:12 162:15

lot 15:15 16:3,7

17:9 18:8,11

27:13 37:9,18

45:3 54:1

55:4,8,21 56:7,8

57:13 70:19 71:4

73:20 74:6 75:8

93:7,22 111:14

113:9 123:13,18

130:2 160:14

169:7 177:10

182:4 184:14

189:8 192:12

198:21 199:5

208:8 223:4

238:15 251:22

252:12 259:18

261:22 264:17

266:17

268:16,17

269:14 281:9

295:8 297:4

298:6 304:14

305:2,4,5 307:18
Capital Reporting Company

Commerical and Industrial Pumps Working Group Meeting 03-04-2014

Page 34

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310:1 312:14

326:14 339:13

346:11

353:6,9,12

lots 43:6

Louder 215:2

Louis 3:2 4:22

9:13,22 15:8,10

16:13 17:3,4

18:22 19:1 22:4

35:10,11

40:12,13 43:4

46:19,20 47:15

50:20,21

81:16,17,18

106:14 115:11

180:14 181:19

220:16 231:9

256:15,16

259:22 260:1

283:13 287:9

290:2 291:22

296:7,8

310:14,15

326:5,6 330:4

333:19

low 117:15 283:6

315:4,8 321:8

322:9 328:21

329:1 336:3

337:14 340:13

lower 215:9,14

221:15,19

253:15 273:21

312:9 323:17

336:1,2 338:12

lowered 224:7

lowest 315:12

336:7,13

low-wattage

117:17

lube 54:15

lubrication

54:7,9,10

lubricity 115:4

Lucas 2:5 5:7 6:18

8:13 14:4 15:18

18:19,22 21:16

23:6 28:2 29:2

34:1,19 36:12

39:3 40:18 42:2

43:21 44:19 49:7

53:16 55:11

68:19 71:22

73:17 74:20

75:6,22 76:20

77:5 79:8 84:12

88:10 90:13

96:18 97:3,20

110:13 111:4

113:4,5 120:20

122:10 125:11

129:10 135:14

136:19 139:2

142:10 149:1

164:16 171:7

179:20 182:3,22

183:21 191:5,8

198:17 199:18

211:12,18

217:17 221:21

224:14 231:14

232:15 234:6,10

236:17 237:6

242:17 244:12

251:10 263:18

294:13 308:22

309:19 322:12

352:5,7,12

lucky 304:15,16

lunch

144:6,10,11,12

M

M&Ns 23:18

machine 173:18

175:9 177:5

277:14

magic 284:15

magnet 194:1

307:16 314:11

320:12 325:1

332:22 333:21

magnets 325:7

magnitude 310:3,4

main 16:2 18:17

mainly 17:16

191:14

maintain 38:4

336:19

maintaining 170:1

major 268:3 282:5

347:14

majority 111:20

123:10 282:16

311:3

MALE 6:8 106:22

107:2 152:18

164:1 236:8

241:12 247:5

251:18 253:6

260:13 279:12

324:8 342:17

346:4

management

352:6

manner 91:19

317:7

manufacture 33:7

161:6 253:22

262:8,20

manufactured

119:13

137:20,22

138:17

139:4,7,9,13,19

141:2,3 148:19

156:15

157:2,4,7,9,16,2

0 159:4,9,10,17

160:9,10

161:1,3,10,18,19

,21 180:2 263:7

manufacturer

19:12 37:4 61:20

80:12 83:22

85:14 87:5,19

89:6 97:11 102:7

103:8,19 108:3,7

126:12 139:5

141:11,12

157:5,13 158:6,9

159:13,17,21,22

160:13,22

161:4,5,7,13

162:19 163:2,6

180:3,4

manufacturers

29:10 61:21

79:13,16 81:2,5

83:18 87:16,18

89:2,13 93:16,17

94:15 102:22

108:10

119:19,20

120:14 149:3

179:1 197:1,2,12

202:13 218:13

259:19 263:6

268:3 269:2

282:6 286:5

296:21 297:2,21

298:5,7 299:21

300:9 334:7

342:7,20,22

manufacturer's
Capital Reporting Company

Commerical and Industrial Pumps Working Group Meeting 03-04-2014

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109:15

manufactures

208:5

manufacturing

20:11 87:6

131:19

manufacturing/

manufacturers

179:13

map 302:18

March 1:16 4:8

14:14 236:7

265:9 267:2

345:22 346:6

351:14

marine 23:20

53:20 54:1,17,22

55:1,6,10,16

56:2,4,14,18

74:16 83:8,12

240:9

mark 2:13 4:18

11:16 12:8

73:15,16 80:2,3

102:18,19 216:3

289:2 300:5,6

303:5 340:14

352:2

market 18:9

86:3,6 89:13

111:8 198:13

267:20 300:11

307:12 310:18

311:3,10 316:22

322:5 334:5,7

343:8

marketplace

88:15,16 268:2

311:5 343:3

marking 235:12

Mark's 94:20

markups 302:14

marry 16:19

marshals 33:12

mask 334:6

match 318:22

matches 334:18

material 46:5,9

50:13 218:14

283:9

materials 32:3

40:4 50:9 56:7

249:9

math 284:3 334:20

336:5

mathematically

319:5

matter 15:20

35:21 66:3 86:3

91:1 113:17

152:13,17,18,19,

20,22 182:10

187:15 246:9,10

247:15 260:4

261:19 294:14

296:4

matters 182:22

Mauer 2:17 5:1

26:7

31:9,11,15,18

32:10,18 41:9

42:3 110:19

112:3

143:8,12,21

146:7

149:7,11,13,17,1

9 201:18 203:19

204:1,18 207:22

214:22 215:3

216:11,15,18,20

217:4,9

221:13,17

222:6,9,21 223:6

225:14,21

227:11 228:5

229:20

231:11,19

232:14 234:5

235:2,4 241:4

245:13,18,22

251:11,21 265:3

293:22 294:12

295:1 297:20

298:11 344:12

345:1,3

351:14,19

max 321:8 332:10

maximum 61:16

62:4 203:20

204:3,6,7 208:2

211:5,6 212:3

222:11 237:19

287:21 315:1,9

322:8 323:21

may 8:11 16:20

20:2,3 40:16

46:5 50:10,22

52:10 56:8 61:18

62:6 83:21 87:16

124:8 128:1

131:18 141:3

148:22

154:10,20,22

155:1,2 159:1

160:12,15,17,18,

19 162:16

163:18 171:5

173:20

175:10,12 176:1

177:7 181:10

183:6 190:17

193:22 199:15

201:13 210:5

212:20

213:3,6,16 240:7

247:14,15

250:21 256:9

257:2 258:11

261:18 262:13

263:4 267:21

269:3 278:14

279:2 282:22

285:15 291:6

292:5 300:21

310:5,10 313:11

314:9 324:22

328:12 336:8

351:4

maybe 7:10,18 8:2

9:15,17,18 13:14

15:6 16:20

22:8,9,18 36:17

39:3 43:18 48:3

58:10,16 60:22

61:10,20 67:16

68:3,20 75:8

79:16 81:11

85:1,4,18 86:9

87:2,9 92:18

94:2

106:14,16,19

108:17 110:19

112:12 115:19

118:22 120:21

124:7,15 131:4,6

136:7 147:21,22

161:6 169:18

170:6 174:5

178:11,22

182:17 183:11

189:19 217:19

219:19 220:4

221:22 228:5

230:10 231:19

233:14 234:5

238:18,21 243:8

246:5 250:14

251:21 266:18
Capital Reporting Company

Commerical and Industrial Pumps Working Group Meeting 03-04-2014

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275:18 277:7,8,9

278:1 281:18

283:5 286:22

289:13 296:19

334:20 336:7

347:6 348:3

349:16

352:19,20

McManis 6:1

mean 8:19,21

10:21 11:1 12:14

13:7 21:10,13

28:4 29:7,16

35:12 36:6 39:8

40:2,17 43:22

49:19 51:18,21

52:12,16 59:8

61:2,22 62:2

63:9 64:2 66:2

67:5,21 68:4,22

70:12 71:22

72:15 73:17,19

76:20 77:21

79:1,2,9,22

84:15,16 90:4,15

91:13 92:20,21

93:2 95:18 99:13

100:11 101:7,15

106:8 109:18

111:21 114:17

116:7,20

121:1,22 125:19

129:12

132:13,15

139:17 140:8

150:11 153:18

154:15 159:16

161:9 162:11

167:8 168:6

171:8,10 175:22

176:3 177:19

180:1,11,22

181:8,16 182:18

184:19 187:12

189:17

191:16,19

196:1,10,20

206:15 209:1

213:10 220:12

229:12,16

230:10,14

231:17 232:13

239:12 242:19

243:15 252:19

253:12 257:7

260:7 265:13

268:17,18 274:3

275:5,6 276:11

278:19 286:4

292:16 297:5,7

298:3 304:5

311:7 316:15

317:11 327:8

343:4 344:21

meaning 27:8

264:1 306:17

means 29:6 30:5

49:21 50:9 51:5

92:18 123:13

131:18 144:13

159:17 178:17

184:10,21 185:6

191:18 193:7

197:3 236:18

326:8 330:10

meant 264:15,16

measure 316:4

325:13

measurement

180:8

measurements

210:22

mechanical

137:19,20

138:4,7,14,18

140:7,8 141:4,9

148:18,19

159:3,4 160:12

161:21 162:16

163:6 170:11

172:6

173:11,14,19,20

175:10,11

176:1,3,9,19

177:1,6,7 185:11

186:3 220:3

287:16,17

mechanically

218:1,4

mechanism 119:11

meet 25:11 26:9

40:7 64:19,20

84:20 85:2 90:22

93:11 97:13

99:1,7 107:5

123:12 126:13

234:2 261:3

301:10

meeting 4:9

6:19,20 7:13

11:19 13:12

14:17 23:15,22

52:2 59:12 62:10

75:18 116:8,15

130:13,20 133:7

138:4 166:22

168:18 169:3

188:4 264:20

265:11 266:1,22

267:5,15 269:15

345:22

346:10,12

351:14

352:1,19,21

meetings 14:14

19:7,8 21:18

122:18 125:6

228:3 229:14

305:19 310:11

meeting's 6:22

meets 30:6 33:4

77:5 98:8 103:1

Meg 3:5 5:21 15:3

49:14,18 50:18

83:2 127:16

134:10,12,14,16,

18 146:6,7,9,11

165:12 172:20

186:12,22 187:9

238:7 241:2,4

242:5

MEI 88:15 89:3

90:7 93:11 101:6

126:13 182:7

261:16

member 14:20

54:14 134:18

144:10 167:1,12

169:6 170:2

353:3

members 5:21

6:11,13 82:8,22

144:19 242:4

342:18,19

346:10 351:4

membership 20:22

21:2,13 91:15

memo 7:4,10 8:1

10:19 22:10,16

57:13 83:7,9

147:13 348:7,10

memory 289:6

mention 142:12

227:17

mentioned 76:2

106:12,14

228:14 249:2

merchant 56:4

merit 245:8
Capital Reporting Company

Commerical and Industrial Pumps Working Group Meeting 03-04-2014

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331:10

messy 112:17

met 353:11

metals 42:18,19

meter 105:17

meters 211:2,8

method 181:18

341:3

methods 312:16

metric 89:4

183:2,3,7

347:8,13 350:10

metrics 7:16

346:16

mezzanine 27:4

microphone 117:4

118:16

middle 157:18

292:6 293:7,10

MIL

39:14,15,17,21

40:11 41:17 43:2

55:1

military 40:13

43:5,6

million 263:10

282:18

306:9,11,12,21

308:12,18

309:11,12,16

millions 102:1

117:22 118:1

mind 8:15 42:20

93:5 121:21

131:9 181:8

182:13 184:15

192:17 266:6

288:10 311:2

minds 94:8

mine 175:17

minimum 164:18

165:2 286:9

minor 24:12

134:20 175:22

minute 24:6 95:13

99:5,7 127:1

277:4 313:17

315:22 317:10

325:1,12

minutes 81:11

106:13 341:20

351:21

mirror 19:10

miss 41:6

missed 117:9

118:13 124:9

194:13 269:1

missing 117:20

213:18

mistaken 199:10

mixed 339:3

mixing 232:18

mode 290:6

model 37:5 62:21

189:22 190:3,4

209:10

217:10,12

224:3,10,11

311:13

models 190:5

223:3

modifications

201:12

modified 240:16

modify 190:18

moment 52:18

81:17 124:13

145:6 190:13

196:21 200:4

231:4

money 127:6

292:11 310:19

352:13

monitor 313:13

month 167:20

178:10

months 13:16 19:8

51:15 116:3

167:20 289:8

290:1

morning 4:2,10

6:17 23:9 82:12

83:5 128:10

147:7,12 149:20

241:3 351:7

mostly 27:6 38:21

118:3 188:7

250:3

motor 16:14,16

30:2,5,6,15

139:8 145:10,14

173:21 177:8

191:17 192:3

194:18 195:3

201:6 245:9

247:13 249:15

257:12,18

261:7,9 262:5

291:12 296:15

300:19,20

314:12

315:6,7,18,20

316:10 320:16

321:4,6 322:10

328:1,2 331:7

332:15,16 333:6

337:19,22

motor-driven 27:7

34:3

motors 30:3 39:1

102:4 125:14

145:7,22 146:3

192:6,12

194:4,13,14

245:6 248:20

250:22 251:10

257:16,17

307:16 315:11

316:18,20 317:1

mouth 31:7 232:5

mouthful 159:7

move 22:3 44:22

51:9,13 105:3

114:22 115:7

124:18 150:20

157:21 165:5

320:21

moved 157:16,18

335:22

moves 137:18

148:17 149:4

152:3 154:20

159:1 170:10

171:4

moving 38:10,11

53:20 134:7

173:17 177:12

275:8 336:4,22

338:7,9

MSS 209:22

MS-S 207:19

214:12

MS-V 207:16

209:21

muddy 104:6

mull 188:10

multi 145:11 244:8

250:20
Capital Reporting Company

Commerical and Industrial Pumps Working Group Meeting 03-04-2014

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multiple 321:16

Multiplied 206:3

multi-speed

145:17 291:7

multistage 62:19

64:8 202:5,6

203:10 204:4,8

208:4 222:13

223:7,8,14

225:19,22

230:19 231:22

271:15

272:5,7,12,14

275:22

municipality 99:3

muted 15:6

Mutual 24:21

myself 51:22

191:10 275:13

328:21 329:2

339:11 350:21

N

nailed 117:11

129:17

nameplate 35:22

96:1 101:20,21

102:10

nameplates 96:3,4

101:22

narrow 22:15

69:18 199:1

narrowed 213:6

national 3:8,9

5:10,12 25:15

305:11 328:22

natural 3:5 173:21

174:3,6

naturally 54:16

nature 143:3

naval 24:3

Navigant 2:21 3:7

235:11 299:18

Navy 23:19 24:3

38:12,15,19,21

39:13,21 40:11

41:20 55:1

66:17,22 83:7,10

116:18 125:7

218:17 240:8,18

241:17,22

NDA 268:7

NDE 45:21 50:13

55:3

necessarily 8:17

9:9 17:20 24:15

25:11 79:1,14

106:19 109:5

145:18 150:9

151:4 180:11

183:14 184:9

232:1 243:2

251:16 275:11

345:14

necessary

17:17,21 21:22

166:14

NEEA 3:2 4:22

15:10 17:4 19:1

35:11 40:13 43:4

46:20 50:21

81:18 256:16

260:1 283:13

296:8 310:15

326:7

negatively 95:2

neglected 240:11

neglecting 166:21

negotiated 4:7

negotiation

7:12,14 256:1

348:20,22 349:7

Negotiations 7:22

neighbor's 328:17

neither 355:8

NEMA 267:8,9,18

268:14 280:17

neutrality 173:22

news 127:16

NF 27:21

NFPA

24:9,11,13,20

25:11,16,20,21

26:3 27:11,19

30:7,10,14,21

31:22 33:4 66:15

nice 82:20,21

122:22 123:1

125:10,16

279:15 324:16

327:16

niche 343:8

Nidec 2:7

night 282:11 284:5

nine 64:3,9 208:13

209:4,22 210:17

324:22

325:11,13

nine-pole 216:16

nine-stage 64:1

208:22 214:12

216:17,18

Ninety-five 335:1

nobody 42:20 93:5

310:18 340:18

343:2

nodding 57:6

65:11 173:16

177:10 214:17

noes 67:12

noise 40:4,21

41:1,5

no-load 193:8

nomenclature

67:18 270:10

nominal 135:4

191:4,16

192:12,19

193:5,6,11

194:19

195:4,14,16

196:7,10

197:2,13

207:4,10

211:8,16 237:20

240:7

non 47:6,11 48:7

55:3 63:6 115:12

259:16 287:18

non-clean 80:5,18

112:8 113:2

115:13,16,20

non-code 45:7,8

47:5,8,13 48:10

49:19 51:1

non-code/safety

48:5

non-code/safetyrelated 46:14

noncompliance

119:6

non-destructive

45:21

nondisclosure

267:12

None 255:8
Capital Reporting Company

Commerical and Industrial Pumps Working Group Meeting 03-04-2014

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nonetheless 313:7

non-marine 56:14

non-pump 79:13

non-safety 45:19

non-self-priming

259:7

non-water 109:11

noon 144:2,6

nor 355:9

North 301:6

Northwest 2:10

3:2,8 5:9

notated 263:1

notation 190:21

243:18

note 23:7 55:18

58:10 147:11

148:7 166:3

189:20,21 263:4

305:13 312:12

345:21

noted 76:17

307:18

notes 164:11

189:19 332:16

354:6

nothing 61:7 90:8

92:22 93:8 168:7

250:16 312:6

notice 229:8

noticed 283:14

322:17

noting 147:2

148:20 170:2

nozzles 38:5

NRC 53:3

NS 97:5

NSF 101:16,18

nuclear 23:20

45:2,3,7,12

46:13,18

50:2,3,8 66:22

74:16 83:8,11

95:16,17 98:17

116:18 240:8,19

241:17,22

nuclear-powered

39:10

numerous 185:1,4

O

object 172:12

objection 165:20

objections 147:2,4

165:18

objects 172:13,20

observation

261:21 310:1

325:22

observer 117:5

obtain 186:5

obtainable 300:22

obtained 187:17

obviate 83:21

obvious 69:4 88:19

121:22

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ought 122:4 243:8

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pole 188:13 191:5

192:17 193:1,6

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regurgitate 9:10

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resurface 124:14

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192:15 198:11

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sanitary/hygienic

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sent 7:4 8:1 10:9
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six-inch 27:1,15

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sixth 238:20

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sources 264:21

space 49:10 191:2

spas 263:13

speak 14:9 19:15
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standards 1:7 2:17

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77:21 84:18

103:1,7 104:11

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table 19:3 20:13

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351:18,21

talked 20:12 34:22

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talks 229:1

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team 8:12 23:16

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technical 24:21

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telephone 2:10 3:6

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testing 24:17 32:2

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tests 36:6

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that's 8:2,14

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27:22 30:9 31:2

33:4 34:6 37:12

38:1 41:1

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whom 141:10

260:21 355:4

whomever 99:4

who's 80:16

whose 260:20

Widder 3:8 5:9

87:1 88:4,21

89:19,22 90:12

97:2,5,7,22

98:3,18 100:1

103:14,16,17,22

104:12 105:19

106:8 108:2,18

160:11,19

162:13 196:17

206:9

346:17,20,22

347:4

wide 323:18

widely 311:4

Williams 3:9 5:11

22:11 23:1 47:20

48:1,12 49:12

57:15,18

58:2,3,5,8,18,22

59:3,8,20

60:1,5,8,12

61:2,8,16

62:1,17 63:3,15

64:16,19

65:7,17,20

66:2,7,13

67:2,5,10,14

68:1,4,15

73:4,6,11 75:11

76:20 77:4,20

78:4 79:5,9

80:10 81:1

104:17,19

105:5,22 106:5

108:16,19 116:6

130:13 131:22

132:4,9,11,15,17
Capital Reporting Company

Commerical and Industrial Pumps Working Group Meeting 03-04-2014

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www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014

,20,22 133:3,11

135:6,10 138:1

139:17 140:3

150:16 152:17

156:5,9

157:3,12,17

158:2

159:10,14,18

161:9,20

162:4,10 166:7

168:8,12

170:17,20 171:3

172:16,19,22

174:12 175:14

176:6 177:18,22

178:3,6 182:21

185:13,18,20

188:22

189:5,10,14,17

190:7 194:7,16

195:1,6

197:7,9,11

198:3,9,12,15

201:9

202:1,18,22

204:5 205:17,22

206:4,6,14,18

207:4,7

208:13,21

209:6,14,18,20

210:12,18

223:11,16,18,21

224:12 226:2,22

228:12,16,22

229:12 230:2,10

236:6,12 237:10

240:13,16

248:5,8,11

262:7,14,18,22

263:16

265:5,15,19

266:20

270:13,20

271:5,7 272:21

273:4,6,9,12,15

274:5,13,19,22

275:4,10,15

276:2,11,14,17

277:2,9,13,18,22

278:7,15,19

279:4,8,15,18

280:5,13,16,19

281:1,21

282:3,10,13

283:15,22

284:4,9,11,13,19

285:13,18,20

286:2,13,19

287:3,6,14,22

288:12,15

290:10,16,19,22

291:4 292:3,16

293:12,15

296:18

298:3,14,19

299:1,10,13

302:12 303:15

304:2,5,8,12,20

306:3,6 308:15

347:7,10,14,17

349:4

willing 10:22

21:20 312:22

winner 188:2

wiping 245:10

wire 287:3,4

302:20 323:5

332:7,8,9

wish 110:16

144:21 242:4

wishes 165:8

238:14

witness 36:5

Witt 167:3,4,5

wonder 19:14,20

wondered 66:5

wonderful 312:16

wondering 19:6

110:14,16 146:5

178:22 179:3

194:5 222:10

263:17 297:22

312:14 330:5

344:12

woods 53:10

wording 52:14

73:7 342:14

345:10,18

wordsmith 44:3

142:6

wordsmithing

138:20 169:1

work 19:22 24:2

37:18 42:1 51:5

57:13,16 58:8

68:5 93:13

111:11,15

119:13

123:19,22

135:18 142:20

170:6 224:18

226:17 228:21

229:8 238:15

261:13 313:5

337:13 349:4

worked 22:13

170:5 193:17

227:9

working 1:9 4:7,9

11:3 12:18 19:21

21:12 26:2 39:20

44:15 95:7,19

127:19 135:10

148:16 166:5

167:2,11 170:3

226:20 238:3

316:4 343:5

348:18 352:21

353:4,15

works 14:2 36:15

160:20 163:3

228:9

world 154:2

249:21 339:2

worried 30:18

145:4 168:1

304:8

worry 96:20 307:8

340:20

worse 182:9

worst 288:10

worth 39:3 133:8

299:21 343:5

Wow 292:13

wrapped 51:14

100:15

write 16:17,18

17:1 18:3 24:16

67:20 72:20 74:4

86:4 89:18 90:17

109:4 121:11

137:11 164:18

writers 24:3

write-up 60:16

writing 57:13 99:2

130:19

written 10:4,7

35:8 51:8 53:19

54:4 91:4 133:6

138:11 168:6

191:13 201:10

wrong 21:11 40:22

89:11 94:2 104:1

126:8 133:6

279:8 346:6

wrote 34:17 54:21

58:18 94:10
Capital Reporting Company

Commerical and Industrial Pumps Working Group Meeting 03-04-2014

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228:1,2

X

x-plot 338:15

Xylem 2:13 4:18

11:16 12:9 80:4

216:3 300:7

340:15

Y

yellow

264:4,8,14,17

265:1,22 268:21

269:21

271:10,12

281:11

318:20,22

yellowish 315:3

Yep 105:6

yeses 170:1 238:11

yesterday 6:6,10

270:5 328:17

yet 14:15 19:10

57:4 127:10,20

128:5 131:22

180:13 237:11

241:12 243:13

251:10 296:21

298:4,6 311:5

314:5 324:17

344:8 345:2

349:18 351:20

you'll 101:11

254:8 301:12

327:8

yours 104:3

yourself 5:15

154:19

you've 60:3 93:13

100:3 110:15

154:18 164:3

184:16 190:5

244:18 283:17

315:22 324:14

326:14

Z

zeroed 7:21

128:12

zone 50:4