1

Note: The output shown below is from the Communication Access Realtime

Translation (CART) system used in the meeting and is unedited, with one

exception: the spelling of “ADAG” was corrected to “ADAAG”. The CART

system was used to provide an accommodation to persons with hearing loss

and persons who are deaf, and was streamed in real-time and available to

the public on the internet during the meeting.

1

2

3

4

5 x--------------------------------------------x

6 : RAIL VEHICLES ACCESS ADVISORY COMMITTEE :

7 : MEETING #1 :

8 : THURSDAY, NOVEMBER 14, 2013 :

9 X--------------------------------------------X

10

11

12 MEETING #1

13 DAY 2

14

15

16 U.S. Access Board

17 1331 F Street, NW,

18 8th Floor

19 Washington, DC 20004

20

21

22

23

24 Reporter: Sandra Gartrell

25
2

1 P-R-O-C-E-E-D-I-N-G-S

2 (9:04 a.m.)

3 CHAIR ALTOM: We are experiencing

4 technical difficulties with the Red Line.

5 Folks are hung up. There are only 12 of us

6 here at the moment. We have several folks who

7 are not here. We also have an interpreter we

8 are going to wait on so we make sure everyone

9 is included in the meeting properly. So just

10 be patient with us for a few minutes and we

11 will get rolling ASAP.

12 (Whereupon, a recess was taken

13 from 9:04 a.m. to 9:12 am

14 CHAIR ALTOM: Good morning one more time.

15 Since more of us have got here, we will go

16 ahead and get started. Time is of the essence

17 for today. I don't want us to go over. You

18 probably have travel arrangements to get out of

19 town.

20 I would like to say thank you all for

21 being here. Again, I appreciate the

22 opportunity to chair this wonderful group of

23 folks. We have a few alternates who are at the

24 table. I would like to quickly go around the

25 table and say who you are and say whether you
3

1 are the rep or the alternate and we can get a

2 feel of who you are.

3 I will start to my left and Andre, will

4 you start, please.

5 MR. GAGNE: Good morning. My name is

6 Andre Gagne. I work for Bombardier

7 Transportation and I am the representative.

8 MR. SLAUGHTER: I'm Blair Slaughter and

9 I'm the principle engineer in design and I have

10 been working for accessibilities with vehicles

11 since inception.

12 CHAIR ALTOM: Are you the rep?

13 MR. SLAUGHTER: Yes.

14 MR. XUE: Jackson Xue, Parsons

15 Brinckerhoff. I'm here on behalf of Frank

16 Banko, who is the representative.

17 MR. WEISMAN: Good morning. This is Jim

18 Weisman. I'm from United Spinal Association

19 and I am the rep.

20 MS. LINTZ: I'm Janice Schacter Lintz from

21 the Hearing Access Program and I am the rep.

22 MR. HUGHSON: Good morning. I'm David

23 Hughson with MTA and the alternate.

24 MR. CARLSON: Robert Carlson, Community

25 Transportation Association of America, and I am
4

1 the regular.

2 MR. SAUCIER: Good morning. My name is

3 Stanton Saucier and I am the regular.

4 MR. CORAN: I'm Josh Coran with Talgo and

5 I am the rep.

6 MR. HOLBROOK: Jon Holbrook with Alstom

7 Transportation.

8 MR. BRIERS: Ken Briers, the alternate for

9 National Association of Railroad Passengers and

10 sitting in.

11 MS. GOLDEN: Marilyn Golden with the

12 Disability Rights Education and Defense Fund

13 and I am the rep.

14 MR. VONASHEK: Justin Vonashek and I'm the

15 rep for METRA NE in Chicago.

16 MR. PEREZ: Clifton Perez and I am the rep

17 for the National Council on Independent Living.

18 MS. PACHECO: Terry Pacheco and I am

19 representing the American Council of the Blind.

20 MR. HUNTER: Stanton Hunter, CalTrans,

21 California Transportation Division of Rail, and

22 I am the primary representative.

23 MR. SHIOTANI: Ken Shiotani. I'm the

24 alternate. I believe Dennis is coming but he

25 is probably stuck on the Red Line but I will
5

1 sit in until he shows up.

2 MS. BUNALES: On the phone lines I do have

3 Calvin Gibson alternate, Federal Railroad, and

4 his line is muted. Uve Rutenberg of ICAT

5 Canada, line is open. Frank Maldari, line is

6 muted. Linda Martin, Federal Railroad,

7 primary, line is open. Jonathan Michael,

8 RailPlan international, primary, and his line

9 is open. I believe you are listen only,

10 though. And Ed Steinfeld, IDeA Center, line is

11 open.

12 Mr. Chairman.

13 CHAIR ALTOM: Thank you, Rose. I have

14 one more coming here. We will allow him to

15 introduce himself one more time. I think he

16 goes without introduction most of the time.

17 MR. HART: Chris Hart.

18 CHAIR ALTOM: Awesome.

19 We also want to let folks in the audience

20 say good morning, again.

21 MR. HOFF: Good morning. Ed Hoff, New

22 Jersey Transit.

23 MR. JOSEPH: Charles Joseph, APTA.

24 MR. SINGH: Gurmil Singh, Siemens.

25 MR. MASCARENHAS: Frances Mascarenhas,
6

1 Chicago.

2 MS. SHURLAND: Melissa Shurland, FRA.

3 MS. MILTON: Naomi Milton, Department of

4 Justice.

5 MR. FODOR: Thomas Fodor, Department of

6 Justice.

7 MR. GOLDSTEIN: Sid Goldstein, editor of

8 Transit Access Report.

9 MS. HAMLIN: Lise Hamlin, Hearing Loss

10 Association of America.

11 MR. MILLIS: Glenn Millis, Washington

12 Metropolitan Area Transit Authority.

13 MR. NELSON: David Nelson with Amtrak.

14 MS. FAIRHALL: Lisa Fairhall, staff.

15 MS. NOE: Aromke Noe, staff.

16 MS. ANDERSON: Melissa Anderson, staff.

17 MS. MAZZ: Marsha Mazz, staff.

18 CHAIR ALTOM: All right. I think that

19 got all of us. Thank you all, very much.

20 As we left yesterday, one of our major

21 points of business was to decide who we wanted

22 to join our committee. We had seven folks that

23 had applied. We took our ballots. Those were

24 tabulated and I'm proud to announce those

25 winners at this moment.
7

1 We have, drum roll please, three of the

2 applicants who were potentially accepted. They

3 will be sent -- it has been approved. The

4 Hearing Loss Association of America has been

5 approved and accepted to the committee. The

6 Metropolitan Transportation Authority of the

7 State of New York has been accepted. And also

8 the New Jersey Transit System are our three new

9 members. So thank you all, very much.

10 What I would like to say for those who did

11 not make it onto this committee, we still value

12 your input. So you are still welcomed to join

13 our meetings, have input, if you are on the

14 phone, wherever you are at. You don't have to

15 come in person if you are out of town. But we

16 certainly value what you have to say. So

17 having said that, we would like our three folks

18 to join us.

19 MS. BUNALES: Operator, will you please

20 unmute Long Island railroad. Frank Maldari.

21 CHAIR ALTOM: We have another full

22 schedule of stuff today. Yesterday we

23 accomplished quite a bit. So I want to remind

24 folks that we did have one particular piece

25 that we carried over to today and that was the
8

1 review of current rail guidelines and the

2 establishment of committee priorities. That

3 will come in and we will finish up with the

4 rest of our schedule, which is the committee

5 work, administration, new business, public

6 comment period and then we will be out of here.

7 And, again, the note that lunch will be on your

8 own at a time each day favorable to the work of

9 the committee.

10 As I look around and I see people they are

11 nodding off, dropping off, I know it will be

12 time to take a break and get something to eat

13 and do something.

14 Having said that, we want to start off

15 this morning. One of the things I will say in

16 running these meetings I'm kind of a laid back

17 kind of guy so I will just watch the room and

18 get a feel for what folks are doing. I hope

19 not to rule with an iron fist. I think we are

20 all adults in here. One thing we did really

21 well yesterday is raising your hand to speak.

22 I know that one of the things with a group

23 this size it can be tough because everyone

24 wants to jump in and has something to say. To

25 be inclusive of all the members we have to
9

1 speak one at a time to allow our CART to be on

2 time and interpreters interpret. We can't have

3 a lot of background noise going on and we don't

4 understand what is happening.

5 Having said that -- we still have folks

6 coming in. Awesome.

7 What I want to do is look at the ADA

8 general rail restrictions. And that would be

9 Lisa, if you are ready.

10 Justin.

11 MR. VONASHEK: Quick question. With the

12 new additions to the committees can we get a

13 balance now with all the different --

14 CHAIR ALTOM: Absolutely.

15 Right now we have the categories are

16 manufacturer, disability provider and other.

17 So in the manufacturing category we have four.

18 And that puts our percentage at 15.3 percent.

19 Disability we have 9, which is 34.6 percent.

20 Provider is 6, 23.1 and other is 7 at 26.9.

21 Thank you.

22 Any other questions or comments about

23 percentages?

24 Yes, I'm glad you said that because mine

25 is actually on too. Remember to silence your
10

1 phones. Very good idea, thank you, Andre.

2 Lisa, are you ready?

3 MS. FAIRCHILD: Yes. Hi, this is Lisa. I

4 wanted to spend just a very few minutes

5 acquainting you with two limitations in the

6 American with Disabilities Act that will effect

7 the work of this committee. So you need to

8 keep these in mind as you go about your

9 deliberations.

10 There are two rules in the ADA -- and I

11 think Paul had sent out a copy of the

12 legislative language within his last email to

13 advisory committee members. I am going to read

14 the language to you and then I can take any

15 questions.

16 The first provision in the ADA that will

17 limit this -- what we as an agency can propose

18 is in Section 242 A.3.C. And this is a

19 limitation on the number of spaces that can be

20 required on a coach car. The law says not more

21 than two spaces to park and secure wheelchairs.

22 "No more than two spaces to fold and store

23 wheelchairs shall be located in any one coach

24 or food service car." That is minimum. We

25 cannot require more than two.
11

1 That does not mean that a provider

2 couldn't provide more than two. But our -- the

3 regulations that we put out, the guidelines

4 that this committee will be developing cannot

5 require more than two seats, two spaces to park

6 and secure wheelchairs or two spaces to fold

7 and store wheelchairs. That limitation applies

8 to the coach cars.

9 The second limitation is a special rule

10 for bilevel dining cars. And this limitation

11 is in 242 A.2.D. And for those who have the

12 materials it is on the second page of the ADA

13 provisions that Paul sent around.

14 And this special rule instructs us by

15 limiting what we can require and what we can't

16 require. It says we can't require a bilevel

17 dining car to be able to be entered by an

18 individual who uses a wheelchair. We can't

19 require it to have space and secure a

20 wheelchair. We can't require it to have a seat

21 a passenger can transfer or space to secure and

22 fold a wheelchair and we can't require that it

23 has a restroom by an individual that uses a

24 wheelchair. This limitation goes to bilevel

25 dining cars specifically.
12

1 So these are the two spaces in the law

2 where they have laid out very specific

3 limitations on what the guidelines can require.

4 CHAIR ALTOM: Just as a point of

5 information, the dining cars -- none of the

6 dining cars have bathrooms for anybody.

7 MS. FAIRCHILD: As you all do your work,

8 we will -- as the recommendations come forward

9 and come to the agency, we will be considering

10 all of your recommendations and reviewing it in

11 light of the statutory language. But I felt it

12 was really important that you all be aware of

13 this from the outset.

14 CHAIR ALTOM: Awesome. Thank you.

15 MR. HUNTER: Can you just give me the two

16 sections citations again? You read them faster

17 than I could copy them.

18 MS. FAIRCHILD: Sure. The first is

19 Section 242 A.3.C, and that is the limitation.

20 The second was section 242 A.2.D and that is

21 the special rule for bilevel dining cars.

22 MR. HUNTER: Thank you, Lisa.

23 MR. MICHEL: I had a quick comment. Just

24 as a clarification, I believe intercity service

25 should be differentiated from commuter in the
13

1 clause, as far as requiring two seats per

2 coach. I believe intercity service as of right

3 now only requires one. I don't have the spec

4 in front of me right now but I think. Blair?

5 MR. SLAUGHTER: I believe it is the case.

6 It is equal to the coaches on the train with no

7 more than two.

8 MS. MARTIN: This is Linda.

9 CHAIR ALTOM: Go ahead, Linda.

10 MS. MARTIN: Well, I was just about to say

11 that is what is in the rule, one space to park

12 a wheelchair and one to fold and store a

13 wheelchair, but that is a minimum and the two

14 is more of a maximum. So it just says that

15 that is the minimum required in intercity rail.

16 Doesn't not say it can't be more than that.

17 MR. XUE: Following up on Linda's point,

18 just looking at the Title 49 section, part 38,

19 the rule says that all intercity rail cars

20 required to be accessible should provide at

21 least one, but not more than two mobile aid

22 seating locations and so forth.

23 MS. BUNALES: Mr. Chairman, I do have both

24 Dennis Cannon on the line and Michael Wetherell

25 of UMTA. And I also have the gentleman at the
14

1 far end of the table who just walked in who is

2 also Long Island MTA. So I will have Dennis

3 unmuted full time, Operator, and Michael

4 Wetherell as well.

5 Mr. Wetherall, are you the primary or the

6 alternate?

7 MR. WETHERELL: I'm the primary. I'm

8 going to be here for this morning and then

9 Frank Maldari is the alternate and he is on the

10 phone and we also have an attendee.

11 MS. BUNALES: I see him at the table.

12 Mr. Wetherell, we will have your line open full

13 time until you leave. Just let us know, okay?

14 MR. WETHERELL: Okay. Thank you.

15 MR. CAPON: Just for the record, Ross

16 Capon arrived from another Red Line adventure.

17 CHAIR ALTOM: Glad you're here, Ross.

18 Next we have on the schedule an overview

19 of the current guidelines. And Melissa is

20 going to provide us with this overview. One

21 moment, please.

22 Okay. We have alternates here this

23 morning. We have some alternates and reps on

24 the phone. I want to hear from everybody who

25 is here on the phone because I think all the
15

1 information is important to us.

2 If you are in the audience and you are a

3 rep or an alternate and you want to sit at the

4 table with us, if you want to elbow in, that is

5 perfectly fine. I want to make sure we hear

6 from everybody and I don't want to exclude

7 anybody. Does that make sense to everyone? Is

8 everyone cool with that?

9 MR. BEATTY: Remember in your operating

10 protocols, any committee member if they feel it

11 is becoming unmanageable, can request that the

12 chair recognize committee members or the chair

13 recognize --

14 CHAIR ALTOM: Okay. I think now

15 having -- hopefully we have that under control.

16 Melissa, are you ready for an overview of

17 our current guidelines?

18 MS. ANDERSON: I'm ready and I'm going to

19 stand because it is just easier for me. We are

20 going to talking about our current guidelines

21 and hopefully everybody had a chance to read

22 over them, ADA Accessibility Guidelines for

23 Transportation Vehicles. And we are going to

24 talk about the history very briefly because we

25 covered it yesterday, the current format, the
16

1 process that we are beginning here, general

2 requirements and then the current guidelines.

3 So a little bit of the history and you

4 heard it yesterday so this is going to be

5 really, really quick.

6 The original accessibility guidelines for

7 transportation vehicles were published in 1991

8 and they address all transportation vehicles.

9 Not all, but buses vans, rail cars and other

10 modes of transit. They are the basis for the

11 federally enforceable standards that are

12 maintained by the Department of Transportation.

13 And they are enforceable by the Department of

14 Justice also.

15 They apply to new and remanufactured

16 vehicles that are required to be accessible

17 under the ADA. And then in 1998, the Board and

18 DOT supplemented the guidelines to include

19 over-the-road buses. So that is kind of where

20 we were.

21 Now, we began the updates to the current

22 guidelines before 2007. And in 2007 they were

23 published for public comments and draft updates

24 for sections of the guidelines that covered

25 buses and vans and we have been working since
17

1 then to take public comment, revise the drafts

2 and in 2010 we proposed the updates, but we

3 still left it open for public comment (static).

4 MS. BUNALES: Operator, will you locate

5 the source of that and -- thank you.

6 MS. ANDERSON: 2010 they were put out for

7 comment again and that is about the time that

8 Dennis Cannon left the staff, maybe 2009. I'm

9 not sure. 2011 is when I came on board.

10 And I have a confession to make and I will

11 be perfectly honest. I don't live and breathe

12 rail vehicles. My background is with the state

13 DOT and couple of local agencies primarily in

14 public rights-of-ways, design, the standard,

15 research planning, utilities all the things

16 that engineers do in those kinds of areas.

17 We are really counting on you guys to

18 provide us the technical expertise and the

19 information we need to move forward with these

20 rules.

21 So I will be working on it as technical

22 lead, Scott Windley has been with the Access

23 Board for 17 years. He has got a lot of

24 experience and has been working on this rule in

25 the past. You know, we have Paul as DFO and
18

1 other great support staff that we will all work

2 together to get this done. So your input is

3 valuable to us.

4 In 2012 we became aware there were issues

5 to the bus rule that we had so we reopened it

6 to comment and we are working on identifying

7 that text for that.

8 But then in 2013, as you know, we

9 established the committee and here you are. We

10 are happy to have you and happy to move forward

11 with updating this portion of the vehicle

12 accessibility.

13 So where we are going from here, we are

14 going to work together as a committee and come

15 up with a report that is presented to the

16 Access Board. From the report, the Access

17 Board and staff will work together to come up

18 with a Notice of Proposed Rulemaking that will

19 be published in the Federal Register and it

20 will include the guidelines along with the cost

21 analysis so we can do the impact.

22 We will put that out for public comment.

23 The public comment period will be long enough

24 to get a good base of comments from users and

25 industry.
19

1 And then we will take those comments and

2 analyze them and tweak the rule as needed. We

3 will rewrite it and publish it for further

4 public comment, if necessary. But hopefully we

5 can go straight to a final rule. They will be

6 published in the final register.

7 Then when it is adopted by the U.S.

8 Department of Transportation and the U.S.

9 Department of Justice, it can be enforced as a

10 federal standard and everyone will have to

11 follow it.

12 We don't decide how it is implemented.

13 That is up to the DOT. So, you know, how it

14 applies and when it becomes effective is not

15 something that you guys have to be concerned

16 with and it is not something that we really

17 have a lot of control over either.

18 So the current format, you might have

19 noticed is -- at least I think, is a little

20 tedious --

21 CHAIR ALTOM: Your mic went out.

22 MS. ANDERSON: Okay. Sorry. To me it is

23 a little bit tedious to get through. It is

24 broken down by vehicle type and you read the

25 same thing for each vehicle type and there are
20

1 some exceptions, of course.

2 But this starts without with the general

3 requirements in subpart A. Subpart B covers

4 buses and vans, which we are working on. We

5 are not going to concern ourselves in this

6 committee.

7 Subpart C is rapid rail. You can see a

8 picture of a train, Metro, Chicago, those parts

9 are considered rapid rate.

10 Subpart D covers light rail, those are

11 street car rail systems and fixed rail system.

12 A lot of times they are located in a city

13 street right-of-way or separate private

14 right-of-way or private. And there are a lot

15 of urbans that have light rail; Atlanta,

16 Portland, Dallas, I think Denver does.

17 So it is becoming more and more popular

18 and I think it is being strongly encouraged at

19 a federal level. There is a lot of funding for

20 light rail system.

21 MS. LINTZ: I'm sorry. Being from New

22 York, what is light rail?

23 MS. ANDERSON: Light rail is an urban --

24 it is usually in urban areas and it is where

25 you find the rails in the street, like an old
21

1 trolley system, almost.

2 And a lot of times it serves the major

3 arteries in a city and it is convenient, gets

4 people from major destinations. But they are

5 becoming more popular.

6 And there was a picture there of kind of a

7 street view of the rails in the street, along

8 with the station, and a vehicle pulled up to

9 the station.

10 <<<: Clarification. In the street or in

11 the subway? Think of the subway service line

12 in Philadelphia or green line in Boston where

13 they are in the street outside of business

14 district but in tunnels in hearts of cities.

15 MS. ANDERSON: There can be variations.

16 The systems grow in expanding areas and there

17 are constraints where they can locate.

18 MR. CAPON: Typically low platforms.

19 MR. HART: Or to.

20 CHAIR ALTOM: Or no platforms.

21 MS. ANDERSON: If you look at the current

22 rules, there are definitions of each of these

23 vehicle types.

24 MS. MAZZ: Unfortunately, Melissa, these

25 mics are not designed for you to move. That is
22

1 why it is cutting out on you.

2 MS. ANDERSON: Okay. I will try to stand

3 still.

4 Okay. Subpart E, commuter rail cars. And

5 those commuter rail cars --

6 MS. MAZZ: I think you are going to need

7 to sit down. For everybody, when you handle

8 the mic, it is more likely to cut out. So if

9 you leave the mic in place, it is less likely.

10 MS. ANDERSON: Okay. And we will probably

11 work on our portable mic situation in the

12 future.

13 Subpart E covers commuter rail cars and we

14 have a couple of systems in the D.C. area. The

15 MARC covers the Maryland side, VRE is Virginia,

16 New Jersey transit, Metra. There are several

17 systems. They tend to operate from suburban

18 areas to urban area. They have AM/PM peaks. A

19 lot of them will have bilevel accommodations on

20 them. So there is a picture of one of the MARC

21 trains up in the corner.

22 Subpart F is intercity rail cars, such as

23 Amtrak. And they go from city to city. So you

24 can go from here to Baltimore on Amtrak. You

25 can go all the way to Connecticut on Amtrak.
23

1 You can go clear across the country on Amtrak.

2 And there is a picture of an Amtrak train in

3 the station.

4 Subpart G is what was added in 1998 and it

5 covers over-the-road buses. Again, not

6 something we are going to concern ourselves

7 with in this committee.

8 And subpart H is other systems. So those

9 are more like people movers. You might find

10 them at an airport or, you know, a smaller

11 establishments, more commercial like. And they

12 are automated guideway, tram, but it also

13 includes high speed rail in that section. It

14 may be an area we need to expand as high speed

15 rail becomes a reality in our country.

16 MR. XUE: Just wanted to make a note that

17 the current regs as they stand out in, the high

18 speed rail requirements references the

19 intercity requirements.

20 MS. ANDERSON: Okay. Thank you.

21 So when you read through the rule as it is

22 written now, you will see that boarding is

23 covered in each of these is somewhat

24 repetitive. You get seating and circulation,

25 handrails and stanchions and they are somewhat
24

1 similar in each one of the sections. You go

2 through and read the same thing over and over.

3 It is hard to really pull out what is different

4 in each system.

5 So the current guidelines, as we talked

6 about them this morning, we are not going to

7 get down to the nitty-gritty. As we develop

8 our subcommittees, if we have them, and move

9 forward then we will get in the weeds and talk

10 about the nitty-gritty of each system and the

11 real details of each of these requirements.

12 I have grouped them together, kind of as

13 you approach the vehicle and enter the vehicle,

14 move around the vehicle, and then added some

15 overall requirements like communication,

16 lighting, restrooms, dining cars and sleeping

17 cars are specific to different rail types. We

18 are not going to find those on our Red Line.

19 So we are going to cover these. We won't

20 cover every detail.

21 You will find a -- if you read the

22 proposed bus rule, this is the way it is kind

23 of organized. And then each specific need for

24 an individual type of vehicle would be called

25 out separately.
25

1 And we may or may not follow this format

2 as we move forward, but it is a fairly simple

3 way to get through it now.

4 So there is a general requirement. And

5 the general requirement is that new, used and

6 remanufactured vehicles are considered

7 accessible when they comply with the guidelines

8 that are put forward. And we've got pictures

9 of some of the old time steam locomotives.

10 Just kind of visual interest to fill our slide.

11 And we are going to start with entering

12 the car. And even before you enter the car,

13 there are requirements for between car

14 barriers. And between car barriers are

15 important because they are systems that warn

16 people from stepping off of the platform. So

17 we don't want someone with a visual impairment

18 to approach a train, see that dark area between

19 cars, think it is a doorway and try to step

20 into it. So there a requirement for some type

21 of barrier. And some examples are pantograph

22 gates, chain, or motion detectors or something

23 similar.

24 There is an exception. If you have

25 screens or gates that protect the edge except
26

1 where the cars are, then you don't have to

2 provide a barrier between the car.

3 There is a level change mechanism

4 requirement for each station. You have to

5 provide it at the station. It is how you get

6 from the ground to the train; a ramp, a bridge

7 plate or even level boarding. We are going to

8 start talking about ramps and bridge plates.

9 They have a design load of 600-pound

10 minimum. Their surface is 30-inches wide, slip

11 resistant. It is important the surface be

12 level. There is 1/4-inch differential

13 requirement. If it is more 1/4-inches and less

14 than 1/2, it can be beveled. The ramp barrier

15 is 20-inch minimum. That allows people to

16 approach the ramp and get on it without going

17 over the edge on the slide.

18 Slope, the general requirement it be the

19 least slope practicable. So we want the slopes

20 to be as flat as possible. But the maximum

21 vary depending on the elevation rise you have

22 to take as you make the level change. If you

23 are less or equal to 3- inches the platform, it

24 can be steep because it is a short distance and

25 it can be 1 to 4 maximum and that is really
27

1 steep. It is greater than 3-inches or equal or

2 less than 6-inches then it can be 1 to 6

3 maximum. If it is between 6 and 9-inches the

4 platform, then it is 1 and 8 maximum.

5 Over 9-inches, that is a pretty good

6 elevation change. So you are going to be

7 making that elevation change over a longer

8 distance and the requirement is to have a 1 in

9 12 slope. And I guess when we say "1 in 12",

10 that means you can go -- you have to take 1

11 inch of rise for every 12-inches of distance.

12 So it is 1/12 and it is a ratio. A lot of us

13 work with it, but some people don't intuitively

14 understand what those ratios mean.

15 So it is the amount of rise -- rise

16 overrun. Way back from algebra class.

17 Ramps and bridge plates have to be firmly

18 attached to the vehicle but they can be

19 deployed from the stations in some vehicles.

20 Now, the gap from the onto the vehicle or

21 the platform, the maximum is 3/8-inch or

22 5/8-inch, sorry. And stowed ramps have to be

23 secured. You can't just toss it on the train

24 and say, "Let's go." If you provide a handrail

25 on the ramp and they are not required, but if
28

1 you provide them they have to be useable

2 through the entire boarding process. They have

3 to be between 30 and 38-inches in height and be

4 able to withstand 100-pounds of lateral force.

5 Those are basic things we see in building

6 standards. Just the way handrails are done.

7 Level boarding is another option. And

8 level boarding is becoming more popular,

9 especially with the light rail, some of the

10 intercity rail. There is a maximum horizontal

11 gap of 3-inches between the platform and the

12 rail car, and that is a horizontal gap. The

13 level change between the vehicle floor and the

14 platform is 5/8-inch. Now, there are some

15 exceptions for that. And new vehicles at key

16 stations have to be within 1.5-inches. There

17 are higher expectations for vehicles and

18 stations that are newer.

19 If it is a retrofit vehicle. The maximum

20 horizontal gap is 4-inches. Most people are

21 really going to struggle with that. Uh-huh?

22 MR. HUGHSON: What is meant by a "key

23 station"?

24 MR. HART: I will put on my technical hat.

25 Key stations is in ADA for legacy changes. It
29

1 was mainly to quickly identify obviously

2 important stations that needed access in, shall

3 we say, timely manner. So it is critical as if

4 it was a terminal station, if it was a transfer

5 point between lines or, say, it was directly

6 adjacent to a major hospital or education

7 facility.

8 And then it was allowance for the

9 community and transit agency to designate other

10 stations to be key stations.

11 The goal here was it was 1990; you are

12 trying to get access quickly and you are trying

13 to prioritize. It was a hope that people would

14 move quickly beyond key stations. Obviously

15 some systems have not.

16 In this case of Amtrak, there was no key

17 station designation. All of their stations

18 were covered.

19 MR. HUGHSON: Thank you.

20 MS. ANDERSON: Thank you, Chris. That it

21 is a good point. They provide connections and

22 very important. They are in priority areas.

23 They are kind of like a major artery. You want

24 to make sure those things are acceptable to

25 everyone and they should be done first and
30

1 foremost.

2 MR. HART: Also I would like to clarify.

3 Level boarding is essentially the standard for

4 all rail and a question of how quickly do you

5 achieve that level boarding. Obviously for any

6 rail operator, you know the second you put in a

7 step, you add to your load time. So you cannot

8 run high speed or very frequent headways using

9 nonlevel boarding vehicles.

10 CHAIR ALTOM: Ross.

11 MR. CAPON: Amtrak they are all key

12 stations. Wasn't there something about

13 stations that were flag stops or very low

14 ridership?

15 MS. ANDERSON: I think you are right about

16 that.

17 MR. HART: Yeah.

18 MS. MARTIN: This is Linda. Can you hear

19 me?

20 MS. ANDERSON: Go ahead, Linda.

21 MS. MARTIN: Okay. That is correct. Flag

22 stops are not covered. But if they are a

23 scheduled stop, it is not the number of

24 ridership that makes the difference; it is the

25 regularness of the stop.
31

1 MS. ANDERSON: Okay. Thank you for that.

2 MS. MARTIN: Sure.

3 MS. ANDERSON: So retrofit vehicles are

4 not held to as high a standard because there is

5 only so much can you do with an older vehicle.

6 It may not have the air suspension and

7 automation that is required to really make this

8 work.

9 But a 4-inch horizontal gap is really not

10 a good situation. So they can always go above

11 the minimum standard and provide bridge plates

12 and ramps. Two inch maximum vertical

13 differential, you know, under 50 percent

14 passenger load.

15 So a lot of times systems will provide

16 other assistance to get over these barriers.

17 Lifts. Lifts are still quite common on

18 many trains. They can be permanently located

19 in the train, on the vehicle or they can be

20 located at a station platform on some systems.

21 Design load is 600-pounds minimum.

22 Controls are interlocked and have momentary

23 contact. What that means is somebody has to be

24 activating that control the whole time the lift

25 is in motion.
32

1 So you can't just turn it on and walk

2 away. You have to hold the switch down while

3 that lift is operating.

4 Rotary lifts are only allowed if there is

5 a physical barrier or a safety constraint. And

6 a rotary lift will kind of stow the lift and

7 the person at the same time. So it has kind of

8 a twisting motion at the top as it comes out

9 and enters the train.

10 There are requirements for emergency

11 operation in case there is a power failure or

12 failure of some component of the system. And a

13 12-inch per second maximum drop is required as

14 a safety standard. Platform barriers are

15 required along the edges, 1.5-inches to keep

16 people from rolling too far forward or come

17 back off the lift. And it is required on the

18 sides.

19 The surface has to be slip resistant and

20 again we find the 3/4-inch maximum surface

21 discontinuity, half inch if beveled, clear of

22 2.5-inches the platform of the lift and

23 30-inches above that. So generally the wheel

24 area, the base of the wheelchair is smaller

25 than the actual wheelchair above it.
33

1 Gaps at the barriers, again, 5/8-inch

2 maximum. At the car floor you have half inch

3 horizontal and 5/8 inch vertical allowed.

4 For portable lifts there is a handhold

5 area that is allowed. You can have a hold in

6 the lift platform that is 4.5-inches x

7 1.5-inches so a person can get their hand in

8 and get a hold of the lift and move it

9 manually, if necessary.

10 The entrance ramp, as you move from the

11 station or the vehicle floor on to the lift,

12 the maximum slope is 1 and 8. And the

13 allowable elevation change is 3-inches maximum.

14 Again, we have the quarter inch maximum surface

15 discontinuity and half inch if it is beveled.

16 The deflection on the lift is only allowed

17 to be 3-inches when it is loaded to the maximum

18 600-pounds and movement is 6-inches per second

19 when it is loaded and 12-inches when it is

20 unloaded. With a maximum 0.3 G's acceleration

21 when it is loaded.

22 So the lift should be designed so that you

23 can board it either forward or backward. Some

24 people are more comfortable backing on to a

25 lift and then backing into the train. Others
34

1 are more comfortable going in forward. And it

2 needs to be designed so either one is

3 acceptable.

4 Again, handrails. Handrails are actually

5 required on lifts. They are only an option on

6 ramps, but they have to be on both sides. They

7 move with the lift. Again, the 30 to 38-inches

8 in height with 100-pound lateral load. Inch

9 and a quarter to half inch in diameter with

10 eased edges and an inch and a half of knuckle

11 clearance.

12 As you are holding on to it, you need to

13 have that much room on the outside of the

14 handrails so you don't pinch your hands in the

15 doorway as you come through and they can't

16 enter for a in-boarding and lighting.

17 And here we have a picture of a rail car

18 mounted lift. And I believe that might be you

19 sitting on that lift.

20 MR. HART: Yeah. That was shortly for

21 that stop.

22 MS. ANDERSON: We went and did a few tours

23 of rail cars and poked around. They actually

24 let us sit in the -- maybe I shouldn't tell

25 that. We got a pretty thorough view of some of
35

1 the trains.

2 MR. HART: For those who don't know, this

3 is what is called a gallery car. You go in the

4 center of your car and there are obviously

5 stairs going up them.

6 What happens with a gallery car is by

7 nature of its design, you cannot ever provide

8 level boarding. And gallery cars are, shall we

9 say, somewhat historical in nature.

10 Exceedingly few buyers of gallery cars. And

11 I'm sure that some of the manufacturers can

12 speak to why industry has moved away from

13 gallery cars.

14 But obviously one can understand actually

15 moving to full-height platform with this car is

16 impossible because you don't have head

17 clearance at the doorway.

18 MS. ANDERSON: Thank you, Chris. That is

19 a good point and that is why the life of the

20 rail car is 30 to 40 years. As we change the

21 guidelines it takes a long time for these

22 standards to be adopted.

23 The transition of moving from what we have

24 the rail cars currently operate in, we would

25 like to see level boarding everywhere. As
36

1 Chris said, it doesn't work with these rail

2 cars and these rail cars are not going to

3 disappear tomorrow. So we always have to take

4 into account -- we have to make these

5 transitions and we can't start yesterday but we

6 need to move forward. But we also need to

7 recognize the challenges that operators and,

8 you know, vehicle manufacturers face in making

9 these changes.

10 MR. HART: And for the operators who are

11 dealing with an aging ridership, as you know,

12 we have 10,000 baby boomers a day. It has

13 obvious impacts as you think about service and

14 scheduling. So it is an issue here as we get

15 into boarding. Because while a lift obviously

16 gets me on board, it is not going to really be

17 used by most people who have difficulty

18 climbing stairs and I'm never going to identify

19 as a person with a disability even though they

20 are.

21 MS. ANDERSON: Thank you.

22 MR. CAPON: Just to note that the other

23 issue, which doesn't go away, is where you are

24 sharing tracks with the freight railroad that

25 owns the track. They have strong issues about
37

1 the high-level platforms in the absence of

2 gauntlet tracks, et cetera.

3 MR. SLAUGHTER: On the age of vehicles,

4 too, just to make a point, right now Amtrak

5 next year will be operating cars that are 66

6 years old, which borderlines on ridiculous.

7 But that is, nonetheless, the fact.

8 And cars that we thought of even when I

9 started as still fairly new, are now

10 approaching 40 years old. And that is an

11 unfortunate reality in a city service here in

12 the country.

13 MR. HART: That is where the debate

14 yesterday discussing about life of the railcars

15 and manufacturing of cars is such a critical

16 issue for how we essentially achieve things

17 going forward.

18 MS. ANDERSON: And there is some benefit

19 to that because those are about dead. So as

20 they die off and are replaced, we have a great

21 opportunity to provide better accessibility.

22 MR. SLAUGHTER: And I have to say this.

23 And even as we are planning the demise of these

24 cars, there are other people planning on

25 resurrecting them yet again. As we can cut
38

1 them in half and sink them, they will keep

2 coming back, unfortunately.

3 We do look forward of the replacement of

4 some of the older cars and renewal of some of

5 the systems. And FTA is pumping billions of

6 dollars into transit systems and rail systems

7 right now. And it is good to see things kind

8 of the stock roll over and change Gary.

9 MR. TALBOT: Thank you, Mr. Chair, and

10 really just responding more of myself and my

11 experience. This has been such a frustrating

12 point for the disability community because cars

13 are certainly being life extended. And often

14 if you look at a system like Boston where they

15 have the old green line car, the Type 7 car, it

16 is a street car. So it stops in the street.

17 You don't even have a platform. You can't have

18 a platform. It is a high-level car.

19 Well, if I take that car in and I give it

20 another 20 years past its useful life, now that

21 is another 20 years the disability community

22 cannot get on and off that car and those stops.

23 There is no way to ever make those stops

24 accessible. Even a low floor car cannot board

25 there because you don't have a platform.
39

1 That is why it is so critical on all these

2 cars -- if you don't jump in on the new car

3 world and provide accessibility, you have to

4 put the accessibility elements into that

5 existing car. Thank you.

6 MS. ANDERSON: And that is something we

7 struggle with; are these long transition

8 periods and it is due to the vehicle types.

9 And some of that is out of our control because

10 the DOT will decide how things get implemented

11 and they will decide -- they will make a final

12 decision on where that dividing line is, what

13 has to absolutely comply at some point and at

14 what point.

15 We are going to move on to doorways. So

16 we have gotten people onto the train. We have

17 not let them fall off the platform in between

18 the cars and now we will get them through the

19 doorways.

20 The clear width requirement is 32-inches

21 and commuter and intercity rail has a 32-inch

22 minimum adjacent doorway requirement. So once

23 you get into the doorway of the car, you still

24 need to be able to make a turn and move into

25 the coach area and the seating areas.
40

1 Intercity rail has 32-inch minimum to the

2 single level dining cars. And rapid light and

3 commuter rail has a 30-inch minimum doorway

4 width requirement between cars but only if the

5 adjacent cars are connected by a 30-inch aisle.

6 MR. HART: Just from a technical

7 standpoint, I want to be clear, the photo here

8 actually does not show a compliant door. It is

9 very hard to find a intercity rail car at this

10 point with a compliant doorway.

11 MS. ANDERSON: And the picture in the

12 corner, is -- actually I didn't worn Gary. We

13 were using a picture we took when we were doing

14 one of the Amtrak tours. It shows someone

15 turning in from the vestibule area into the

16 coach area. One of the things that is not

17 addressed right now is protruding objects. We

18 found when we were doing tours there are things

19 that protrude into the clear width that really

20 prevents it being a clear width. That is one

21 of the basic standards we need to maybe address

22 and acknowledge that there are things out there

23 that are basic accessibility requirements that

24 have not been thoroughly covered.

25 MR. HART: Are you going to talk about the
41

1 vestibule?

2 MS. ANDERSON: Yep.

3 Okay. So we have a diagram up here that

4 comes straight out of the current rule. And it

5 shows a picture of the doorways, 32-inches

6 wide. The vestibule areas is required to be

7 42-inches minimum clearance and that gives you

8 room to make a little bit of a turn. It gives

9 you room to move between cars, if the movement

10 between the cars is allowed in that type of

11 train.

12 It also shows the wheelchair spaces are

13 located close to those entrances so that you

14 can provide that 32-inches passageway from the

15 doorways into those spaces.

16 And circulation paths. We got people

17 through the doorways, now we are going to move

18 them around the train a little bit.

19 So the passageway width is required to be

20 a minimum of 32-inches and that is just from

21 the accessible doorway to the accessible

22 seating. So beyond that can be narrower than

23 32-inches. Where the passage is required

24 through a vestibule, like it was shown 42-inch

25 minimum clear width. Floors and steps surfaces
42

1 are required to be slip resistant. Threshold

2 and step edges have to be demarcated with a

3 band of color.

4 The picture is not a perfect example. It

5 shows a picture of a doorway with a bridge

6 plate. And the bridge plate is outlined in

7 bright yellow against the black. It also has

8 markings on the floor to show where the surface

9 of the floor is -- where there is little bit of

10 a slope. That helps people with visual

11 impairments where there are changes in level

12 and what to expect.

13 The circulation paths have handrail and

14 stanchions. They should be graspable outside

15 the vehicle to help you get on board. And

16 additional one on the vehicle to help you move

17 around and to assist with seating and standing.

18 The picture shows the interior of a

19 Ameritran and it has stanchions next to the

20 seat. Not only provides help for someone who

21 is less stable on their feet to move around the

22 vehicle, it also provide as place for people

23 who are standing to be more stable as the

24 vehicle moves.

25 Seating. Wheelchair mobility aids
43

1 position. The two minimum is actually not in

2 all vehicles. Some of the two is a maximum.

3 Like Lisa said, we can't require more than two

4 in intercity rail.

5 Providers can always choose to provide

6 more, if they have a system that carries a lot

7 of people with needs.

8 Minimum size is 30-inches x 48-inches and

9 it can be a place that is normally used by

10 standees. A person in a wheelchair has

11 priority to use that space. You can't read the

12 little picture of wheelchair space on the

13 corner, but it does say "priority is to be

14 given to people with disabilities" on the side

15 there. Fold down seats is allowed in that

16 space.

17 MS. LINTZ: I always see garbage pales

18 there.

19 MS. ANDERSON: It has be accessible to

20 people with disabilities. If there is luggage

21 there, it should be cleared out.

22 MS. LINTZ: What if there is no one to use

23 it. Is there provisions for that?

24 MS. ANDERSON: Part of our rule and that

25 is the operating issue.
44

1 MS. LINTZ: Is that something that can be

2 provided in the ruling about not placing

3 garbage pale receptacles in the space?

4 MS. ANDERSON: That may be something we

5 talk about as we go through the rule.

6 MS. MAZZ: Policies and procedures and

7 maintenance belong to the standard setting

8 agencies, not to the Access Board. So, no.

9 MR. HART: To put it another way, you

10 can't turn -- if you turn the rail car upside

11 down, the garbage can or piece of luggage will

12 fall out.

13 MS. MAZZ: Nonetheless, it is a matter of

14 maintenance of acceptable features that it is

15 addressed in the DOJ regulations and I believe

16 also the DOT regulations.

17 MS. ANDERSON: And securement of

18 wheelchairs is not required in the vehicles.

19 And it is something we may or may not need to

20 discuss as we work through this.

21 Communications is very important. We kind

22 of divided it into -- we start with signage and

23 the international symbol of accessibility,

24 which is shown in the picture, is required to

25 be light on dark or dark on light so it can be
45

1 easily seen by people with visual impairments.

2 Has to be on the outside of accessible

3 doorways, unless all the doorways on the

4 vehicle are accessible.

5 You have to provide signs for accessible

6 restrooms and priority seats have to have a

7 sign that indicates that priority should be

8 given to persons with disabilities.

9 There are technical requirements for the

10 letter sizes, stroke height, minimum height of

11 the letters and the proportions.

12 Signals have to be provided that have an

13 audible and visual component to alert

14 passengers when the doors are closing. So

15 there should be a bell, a voice notice. And

16 there should also be some type of visual

17 warning, a light or something else that can be

18 seen.

19 Public information systems are required.

20 And they can be either message -- messages can

21 be given by individual personnel or they can be

22 recorded or digitized human speech. And they

23 have to announce stations and then other

24 information, like "the Red Line will be moving

25 in an hour and a half."
46

1 On rapid rail systems the vehicles

2 operating in stations that have more than one

3 line have to have an external system to

4 announce the train and the route and line

5 identification so that you know which train you

6 are getting onto, if there is an option.

7 Janice?

8 MS. LINTZ: I'm sorry. I'm not clear. So

9 the signals need to be auditory and visual, but

10 the public information, there is no requirement

11 for auditory/visual? Because it would seem to

12 me if it is important to hear and see a signal,

13 why would you not have the same consistency for

14 the announcements, which are basically the same

15 thing?

16 MS. ANDERSON: That is a good point we may

17 have to address as we move on.

18 Terry?

19 MS. PACHECO: That is my same question.

20 MS. ANDERSON: And that is why we are

21 here, to identify the issues that are problems

22 for people who use the systems and decide how

23 we need to address them.

24 MR. HART: Just to be clear, my colleagues

25 on the Board have raised a number of concerns
47

1 with certain omissions and have been very clear

2 that we will go over some of these rail

3 omissions and make clear when we provide audio,

4 we provide visual and when we provide visual,

5 we provide audio.

6 MS. LINTZ: Can you let the Smithsonian

7 know about that? I know it is outside the

8 scope here but they don't seem to understand

9 that concept.

10 MS. ANDERSON: I have just been reminded

11 to remind you guys we are talking about the

12 existing standards and not where we are going.

13 MS. LINTZ: I understand. As we go

14 through I want to make sure I fully understand

15 it.

16 MS. ANDERSON: I understand it. It is not

17 currently in the existing.

18 Okay. Lighting on rail vehicles. Applied

19 to light rail, commuter and intercity rail.

20 The step-well or the doorway with accessible

21 boarding is required to have foot candles,

22 minimal illumination on the foot if it is

23 adjacent to the driver and the door is open.

24 If it is not adjacent to the driver at all

25 times, it should have two candles of
48

1 illumination when it is deployed at the level.

2 If it is not deployed at the level system,

3 exterior has to be provided that provide one

4 foot candle minimum at 3 feet perpendicular on

5 all points on the lighting area and they have

6 to be located so that they don't shine directly

7 into the eyes of passengers.

8 Dining cars. Now we are getting into the

9 specialty areas. Dining cars has to have at

10 least one door that connects to an accessible

11 car. And at least one space has to be provided

12 to table service for a person who chooses to

13 remain on the wheelchair and they have to

14 provide space to store a wheelchair for persons

15 who chooses to transfer.

16 We have two pictures here. One is just a

17 shot of the dining car and the tables and some

18 of the seats and kind of outside the picture.

19 There are no seats provided and it leaves space

20 for a wheelchair to approach the table.

21 On the right-hand is a picture more of a

22 cafe car. It has stools at a counter and then

23 you can't see -- and I didn't tell Chris he was

24 going to be a star either. This is from a tour

25 we took. Chris was with us and there is a very
49

1 small table that extends from the side of the

2 car to provide a lower service area.

3 Restrooms. You know restrooms are only

4 provided on some types of vehicles, commuter

5 and intercity rail. They are required to have

6 a clear floor space of 35 x 60-inches. And

7 permanent fixtures can overlap if they meet

8 certain knee and toe type requirements. They

9 can overlap by 6-inches but they can't

10 interfere with access to the water closet or

11 the toilet.

12 You are allowed to have fold-down seats or

13 shelves in that area, and that some people will

14 use those to help transfer or to put things

15 down.

16 The water closet height is required to be

17 between 17 and 19-inches. And the seats are

18 not allowed to have springs so that they stay

19 in the upright or in the lifted position. They

20 have to be -- you have to be able the put them

21 in the down position and they stay there.

22 Grab bars are required, just like in a

23 public restroom in a building, 24-inches long

24 behind the water closet and 40-inches long on

25 at least one side and no more than 12-inches
50

1 from the back wall and located at a usable

2 height of 33 to 36-inches of faucet controls.

3 Cannot require tight, tight grasping and pinch

4 or twisting and 5-pound max to operate and

5 44-inches maximum in height.

6 Doorway width, if it is on the short end,

7 if it is a rectangular restroom and you are

8 approaching the short end of the rectangle, the

9 minimal width of the doorway is 32-inches. If

10 the doorway is located on the side of the

11 rectangle, then the requirement is for it to be

12 at least 39-inches because the limited space in

13 a rail car, they have to enter it in at an

14 angle and it takes a little more space.

15 Latches and hardware can't require tight

16 grasping, pinching or twisting and the location

17 is close proximity to at least one seating

18 location with a person with a disability and a

19 32-inch minimum clear width route so they can

20 get from the seating area to the restroom.

21 And we have a diagram of a rail car with

22 the restroom in it. And it shows our door

23 clearances and vestibule and the 32-inches

24 passage. And a regular inaccessible restroom

25 is toward the bottom and then at the top part
51

1 of the picture there is a rectangular restroom

2 provided, entered by the side so it shows a

3 39-inch clear width of the doorway. And you

4 can see that would be a lot harder to maneuver

5 into for a person in a wheelchair. And then it

6 provides direct access to wheelchair seating

7 spaces.

8 And the spaces here, you know, show

9 fold-down seats that can be folded down when it

10 is not in use by a wheelchair. And there are

11 wheelchair storage areas shown there for a

12 person who is transferred.

13 MR. HART: Just in case people are

14 wondering, the photo on the bottom is for an

15 Amtrak car. That is what you find in the

16 existing Superliner, double deck car.

17 MS. ANDERSON: Thank you, Chris.

18 I have all kind of pictures of railroad

19 bathrooms. And whether you need an accessible

20 restroom or whether you don't, restrooms on

21 rail cars, airplanes or et cetera, they are not

22 fun to use for anybody. We want them to be as

23 accessible for anyone.

24 MS. HAMLIN: I was wondering in the

25 restroom, you are only looking at right now
52

1 mobility issues. Are there any emergency,

2 permanently installed emergency lights also

3 required in those restrooms?

4 MS. ANDERSON: Uhm, I would have to look

5 at --

6 MR. HOFF: Is it required or if provided

7 must be accessible?

8 MR. HART: Provided.

9 MS. MAZZ: Lise, are you asking about

10 visual alarms like in buildings?

11 MS. HAMLIN: Yes, I am.

12 MS. ANDERSON: I would have to look it up.

13 Marsha is saying they are not required. I was

14 in a train recently and they did have an

15 emergency pull button and they also had a light

16 available. Even though they may not be

17 required, as a customer service issue and

18 safety issue, some rail systems may be

19 providing them anyway. Whether we want them

20 required is something we need to discuss in the

21 future.

22 MS. MAZZ: I think Lise is talking about

23 NFPA compliant alarms you find in buildings,

24 which are essentially fire alarms.

25 MS. ANDERSON: I have seen them installed.
53

1 They are not currently in the requirements.

2 Sleeping compartments, again, specific to

3 intercity rail. They are allowed to use a

4 person using rail to maneuver within and

5 approach and use each element of the

6 compartment. So if it is accessible you need

7 to be able to get in it and use the features in

8 it. They have to contain an accessible

9 restroom that is accessible directly from the

10 sleeping car, so it should have a direct

11 attachment.

12 Controls and mechanisms have to meet the

13 requirements of building standards 15 to

14 48-inches above the floor with a clear floor

15 space of 30 to 48 in the front and all elements

16 should be operable without tight grasp,

17 pinching or twisting of the wrist.

18 We have a diagram of a sleeping car or a

19 sleeping compartment. It shows the access into

20 the sleeping car. Can you go from the doorway

21 to the vestibule into the aisleway and directly

22 into the accessible room.

23 And then it shows the accessible restroom

24 that is -- its private to that accessible room.

25 Now, some of them are closed off as a
54

1 totally separate compartment. Some of them are

2 simply a current. So a person is basically

3 traveling with their bathroom right next to

4 them the whole trip.

5 MR. HART: And just to be clear, the seat

6 folds down into that. Folks may want to think

7 about what is -- how you get around in that

8 space, how you turn, can you turn. Folks may

9 want to weigh in on that.

10 MS. ANDERSON: Some of these specialty

11 areas, like the sleeping compartments, are

12 going to need some specific attention.

13 MR. MICHEL: We have been working with

14 Amtrak on the new LDSL sleeping compartments.

15 Linda can attest to, I guess, the difference in

16 spacial layouts compared to the current spec.

17 I think that this diagram, that is the way it

18 is laid out and Chris has visited as well and

19 many other members of the ADA community have

20 visited the space. I think it would be

21 important to be able to outline this layout in

22 generating this new spec in this new layout.

23 MS. ANDERSON: Thank you. We appreciate

24 that because we need that kind of input.

25 MR. PHILLIPS: I was wondering if there
55

1 are any requirements for visual alerts,

2 requirements for visual alerts or announcements

3 in the sleeping compartment cars, and if there

4 is any situation where the visual alerts are

5 already provided, perhaps.

6 For example, if a deaf person is sleeping

7 in the compartment and somebody needs to knock

8 on the door or somehow get their attention,

9 then what -- is there a doorbell that has a

10 light attached to it that would help the door

11 person to wake up or perhaps the deaf person

12 can leave the door unlocked so that someone who

13 needs to warn them about an emergency situation

14 can go in and they don't need to, you know --

15 they don't surprise the deaf person because

16 they think it is a robbery or someone is

17 breaking into their compartment or there is a

18 risk of robbery, perhaps, if they do leave the

19 door open?

20 MS. ANDERSON: Currently there are no

21 requirements that cover that. The public

22 information system, of course, would be tied to

23 that car but that doesn't help a person who is

24 deaf. So, you know, that is a component that

25 we need to consider.
56

1 MR. SLAUGHTER: I would like to speak to

2 fire alarms in sleeping car. There is audio as

3 well as visual for that, as far as normal

4 alerts and things.

5 And to speak to security issues on trains,

6 we don't have, as the only intercity provider

7 right now, other than a specialty group, that

8 is providing sleeper service.

9 No one wants to deal with an Amtrak

10 conductor if they are doing wrong so they

11 usually don't.

12 Also in emergency situations, any of the

13 door locks we have can be overcome by a

14 conductor. For fire alarm and smoke alarm

15 onboard on the sleepers, there is an audio and

16 visual alarm.

17 MR. TALBOT: Thank you, Mr. Chair and

18 Melissa. Just a question, is that in each one

19 of the rooms? Because I thought there was in

20 one of the cars but not in each one of the

21 rooms.

22 MR. SLAUGHTER: In the accessible room

23 there is the visual and I would have to look

24 back, Gary. I think in the hallways as well

25 there is a visual. But in each individual
57

1 room, there is not a visual.

2 MR. TALBOT: Just a thought for the

3 advisory committee to consider. I know in

4 working with Marilyn and many others in the

5 boat rules on our passenger vessel rules we

6 came up with a portable system for folks who

7 are deaf because many folks who are deaf don't

8 want to go in the accessible room because they

9 just have a need of that. They did a ton of

10 testing and basically able made it in the room.

11 MS. LINTZ: No. It was me who went on the

12 cruise with the portable system and was woken

13 up for three times three consecutive nights at

14 2:00 a.m. Because what happened the drunk

15 people down the hall woke us up at 3:00 in the

16 morning.

17 MR. TALBOT: I thought that it passed and

18 I thought it might be an option for this.

19 MS. LINTZ: No, it was my family that

20 suffered for three days but saved the rest of

21 the world.

22 MR. SLAUGHTER: In a technical standpoint,

23 the industry both (inaudible) and rail have

24 found common ground because the conditions of

25 compartmentalized sleeping is there. There are
58

1 a lot of really nice modular systems that if we

2 decided we needed to do that, is not that big

3 of a deal to do, quite honestly.

4 MS. GOLDEN: Yeah, in building rules, we

5 have gotten rid of visual alarms that are

6 portable units, have become very out of favor

7 because it requires people to think about their

8 life safety, you know, emergency systems and

9 you want them permanently installed. If

10 non-disability disabled people don't have to

11 worry about that, why should people with

12 disabilities.

13 And given that you don't want all

14 disability features in one room because as

15 appropriate hearing impaired or a deaf

16 individual who doesn't happen to also be

17 mobility impaired would not want to take the

18 mobility impaired room. So you need to have

19 other rooms that have permanently installed it,

20 visual and audio alarms.

21 That has gotten worked out in updates and,

22 you know, the building ADAAG was redone and da,

23 da, da, da. So there needs to be some overlap

24 but some not overlap.

25 MS. ANDERSON: This is a great
59

1 conversation but let's save it for when we work

2 on the rule and as we move forward.

3 MS. GOLDEN: The other thing I wanted to

4 say was in terms -- I mean, I don't think -- I

5 think it is possible that the original framers

6 of these requirements didn't, you know, didn't

7 occur to them that the designers would end up

8 making, you know, sort of be -- that your whole

9 room is the bathroom because everything is

10 there.

11 MS. ANDERSON: Right. And the sleeping

12 cars, you know, dining cars, they need some

13 special attention. And so we are going to be

14 looking at those with specific needs. And they

15 do operate kind of as a building. You are in a

16 small apartment type area when you are in a

17 sleeping compartment.

18 So we will look as those things as we try

19 to come up with a report and a new rule.

20 MS. GOLDEN: I mean, it is easy to think

21 of them as we go through.

22 MS. ANDERSON: Right.

23 MS. GOLDEN: The other thing was there was

24 never a requirement you have to go anywhere

25 else. So people using those rooms can't go
60

1 anywhere else on the train unless you are at

2 certain stops and you have double stopping

3 issues, and "you can't go until we are in X

4 station." There have been all kinds of

5 problems with that.

6 MS. ANDERSON: Thank you, Marilyn. We

7 talked about the current rules and the

8 requirements and we tried not to get down in

9 the weeds. There are specific to different

10 rail car types. But there are things that have

11 not been applied that we have standards for in

12 buildings and in other rules that we have,

13 other guidelines.

14 So these are some of the items on the

15 slide that come from the building standards.

16 And this is not all of them, but these are some

17 areas we might take into consideration as we

18 move forward.

19 I'm not saying they are all issues, but we

20 need to be aware there are current guidelines

21 for some situations and using the current

22 guidelines and keeping some consistency has a

23 lot of value.

24 So protruding objects is an area. That is

25 something that sticks out more than 4-inches in
61

1 an area undetectable between 28 and 27-inches

2 in height. Accessible rights have specific

3 requirements. We don't list all those in the

4 current vehicle rules.

5 Stairway. We have stairways for entry and

6 we have stairways in bilevel cars but there are

7 no requirements.

8 Signs. There are standards for raised

9 characters in braille in buildings. Assistive

10 listening that I think may be a topic.

11 We also have requirements for armrests,

12 dining and work surfaces, counters. We do have

13 that on rail vehicles and two-way communication

14 systems so a person with a disability needs to

15 be able to communicate also. So those are

16 areas we might want to look at. It is not an

17 all inclusive list and you may not want to

18 consider some of these. But I'm just throwing

19 them out there so you are aware they are there

20 and there are standards available.

21 Gary.

22 MR. TALBOT: Thank you, Melissa and

23 Mr. Chair. I don't know if Linda is -- Linda

24 Martin is still on the call or not, but DOT

25 came out with a guidance documents that
62

1 basically says that all of ADAAG applies. So

2 for your protruding objects, things like that,

3 they already said all of the things already

4 developed applies. For me it would be really

5 exciting for you guys to look at the ADAAG for a

6 built environment to see if it needs a tweak or

7 a standalone piece or whatever.

8 MS. MARTIN: There is that guidance and it

9 says it is applied where it is feasible with

10 the understanding that rail cars are not like

11 buildings and the space is limited and it is

12 more of a case-by-case situation with that and

13 it is still just guidance.

14 So, you know, wherever we get a rule that

15 flushes out these things, that would be great

16 and one of the purposes of our work in this

17 committee.

18 MS. ANDERSON: Thank you, Linda.

19 MS. MAZZ: I would add that modifying ADAAG

20 is out of the scope of this committee. So you

21 want to focus on the rail rules and what is

22 appropriate for rail rules.

23 And if you cover the things that need to

24 be covered in the rail rule, the guidance from

25 the Department of Transportation might evolve.
63

1 So just bear that in mind.

2 MS. ANDERSON: And there may be instances

3 where the guideline is perfect for a building

4 but doesn't really fit for rail and we need to

5 adjust it to fit specifically for rail.

6 So that is all I have and -- okay,

7 Marilyn.

8 MS. GOLDEN: Marsha, I just want to

9 understand what you're saying. Are you saying

10 if the committee ends up viewing one of the

11 standards for buildings as something that

12 should be enforced on a train, either directly

13 the same as it is in a building or an adaptive

14 manner, but certain things like protruding

15 objects, I'm just going to throw that out, I

16 would hope that you would keep it the same, in

17 other words, if it applies on the train we need

18 to put that in.

19 MS. MAZZ: I put that in my comments

20 yesterday. What I suggested is you look at the

21 building guidelines. If you choose to depart

22 from them for a particular element on a train,

23 please justify that departure based on the

24 nature of a train. Because knees are knees are

25 knees and your knee and toe needs don't change
64

1 because you are on a train. But the unique

2 features on a train may make it more or less

3 possible to accommodate the anthropometry of

4 your knees and toes.

5 But outside the scope of this committee.

6 You cannot -- we don't want you to spend your

7 time on recommendations to amend the 2010 or

8 2006 ADA standards for buildings. We want you

9 to spend your time --

10 MS. GOLDEN: That part I get. The part

11 I'm going for is the other part.

12 You're saying whether a standard is

13 adapted from the 2010 ADAAG for trains or

14 whether it the same, if we believe it should

15 apply in a train car, we have to affirmatively

16 put it in?

17 MS. MAZZ: Correct.

18 MS. GOLDEN: Rather than either assuming

19 it will be read in or saying it should be read

20 in --

21 MS. MAZZ: You can say -- format is not

22 your problem.

23 MS. GOLDEN: Uh-huh.

24 MS. MAZZ: What you need to do is express

25 your intents. If your intent, for example, is
65

1 if a drinking fountain is provided on a train,

2 the requirements for drinking fountains found

3 in section 60, whatever it is, in the ADA

4 standards should apply. That is one possible

5 outcome.

6 Another is if a drinking fountain is

7 provided on a train, the requirement of the ADA

8 standards should apply with the following

9 modifications.

10 MS. GOLDEN: I see.

11 MS. MAZZ: For the following reasons.

12 MS. GOLDEN: I see. That is helpful.

13 Thank you. But regardless we have to say

14 something?

15 MS. MAZZ: Yes, please.

16 CHAIR ALTOM: We have Jonathan who has a

17 question on the phone.

18 MR. MICHEL: I just had a comment

19 regarding signage. I think all of the parties

20 involved in the deaf and blind community can

21 agree that signage is key to everybody's

22 well-being on the train in navigating it. And

23 if a separate subcommittee could be organized

24 to address, I guess, the key items in each rail

25 type, I think that would be a valuable exercise
66

1 and help guide the process. I don't know if

2 anyone else agrees, but the variety of vehicles

3 we are dealing with I think this is an

4 important issue.

5 MS. ANDERSON: Thank you, very much.

6 MR. TALBOT: Thank you. Just to clarify.

7 I must have misspoke. I was not suggesting

8 that you guys go in and change ADAAG. What I

9 meant using ADAAG in the current built

10 requirements and what FRA said for us and DOT

11 said for us is all of ADAAG applies where it is

12 practicable and you guys get to figure out

13 where it is. And, like Marsha said, maybe it

14 does or not. And tweak things.

15 Some things look like it transfers

16 directly, which I think is great because it can

17 put meat on the bones quickly on using the

18 built-in environment.

19 MS. MARTIN: One comment about that. Can

20 I go?

21 CHAIR ALTOM: Yes, please, Linda.

22 MS. MARTIN: We at FRA, the next

23 generation equipment committee, which Melissa

24 Shurland will hopefully get a chance to talk

25 about at some point, developed basically a
67

1 chart which compares what is in the regulation

2 in terms of dimensions and what is in the ADAAG

3 in terms of the same elements and whether or

4 not, you know, whether or not they might be

5 useful to each.

6 And we identified what is missing in the

7 regulation in terms of dimensional requirements

8 and in the chart and include what is required

9 in ADAAG. So we would be happy to provide that

10 document when appropriate.

11 MS. ANDERSON: Great. Thank you, Linda.

12 That would be a good resource. I know the FRA

13 group has done a lot of work and hopefully we

14 will have good resources to look at.

15 MR. SLAUGHTER: On the vehicle side, we

16 always looked at the vehicles as rolling

17 architecture with the reality of the vehicle

18 can't get any bigger than it is.

19 And from that standpoint, looking at the

20 requirements that effect buildings directly and

21 buildings have a lot more flexibility for

22 changing space requirements, I think as we move

23 forward I would rather us -- and I think it is

24 going to be on the long term more beneficial to

25 everyone to impose more definition where we
68

1 can.

2 And there are going to be areas -- I think

3 it is critical we separate between the building

4 side and the rail side, because if there are

5 changes on the building side that could

6 directly effect by reference the rail side, you

7 may be absolutely up against the wall and out

8 of the clearance envelope of the rail vehicle.

9 So I would go for more thorough definition

10 and I think that is to the benefit of the

11 providers and the car builders and ultimately

12 to the community, rather than leaving too many

13 things open-ended.

14 MS. ANDERSON: Thank you.

15 Marsha?

16 MS. MAZZ: In response to that, changes

17 in -- subsequent changes after the rule is

18 published, if you were to reference the ADA

19 standards, subsequent changes made in the ADA

20 standards after the rule is published would not

21 be necessarily automatic. I don't think you

22 need to be concerned about that.

23 But if it your intend that they not be

24 automatic, if you choose to reference over to

25 the ADA standard, if you express that in your
69

1 report, that will make your intent clear.

2 Again, we don't expect you to have to do

3 all of the legwork on reference standards and

4 all that. Just make your intent clear.

5 MR. HART: Always remember DOT ultimately

6 is a regulatory authority. So they can decide

7 what they actually want it to end up saying.

8 MS. ANDERSON: Thank you, everyone,

9 because it has been a great conversation. We

10 are going to turn it back over to Billy and I'm

11 going to get out of your hair.

12 CHAIR ALTOM: Thank you, Melissa.

13 Awesome. Great update.

14 What I'm going to do now since yesterday I

15 never allowed you to take a break. I think

16 today -- let's take 15. I will say 10 and we

17 will be back in 15 because I know this group.

18 (Whereupon, a Recess was taken from

19 10:50 a.m. to 11:10 a.m.)

20 CHAIR ALTOM: If we can start coming back

21 to the table.

22 What I want to do real quick is kind of

23 get a feel from the crowd here. It is 11:15.

24 We are -- or almost 11:15.

25 We have folks who are leaving early this
70

1 afternoon.

2 What time frame are folks looking at

3 leaving? Stan, you have to take off early.

4 MR. HUNTER: At 1:30.

5 CHAIR ALTOM: What I'm trying to figure

6 out is how we take a break. What I have before

7 us now I would like to get accomplished is our

8 committee work. If you look on the side, we

9 have a few topics that are listed. How deep

10 into this do we want to go? Do we want to say

11 let's go to 12:15 as we are looking through

12 these issues and take a pulse again? If it

13 looks like we go for a little longer, we can,

14 for folks who may be leaving, or we can take a

15 break?

16 What is the will of the group? I don't

17 want folks to have to leave and feel like they

18 didn't get their point across.

19 MS. LINTZ: Can we do a working lunch?

20 Maybe we take 15 minutes to go get lunch.

21 CHAIR ALTOM: No working lunches.

22 MR. BEATTY: Interpreters and CART people.

23 CHAIR ALTOM: Let's say go to 12:30 and

24 take a break.

25 I want to turn it over to Paul to say how
71

1 we want to address these issue topics.

2 MR. BEATTY: This is a point where we want

3 you to put your issues on the board. The

4 purpose is not to go into detailed explanation.

5 Everyone here has come to the table and some

6 people have come with concerns. Let's get them

7 on the list here.

8 How you evaluate those concerns, that will

9 be part of the community process.

10 We recommend on the first list you only

11 focus on new vehicle requirements, say, a new

12 vehicle at a new platform. So we are not

13 talking about new vehicles and existing

14 stations. Some of you familiar with what the

15 rule talks about, not new vehicle at key

16 station. New vehicle.

17 Typically other advisory committees, once

18 committees have come to conclusion about

19 construction requirements, it is easier to go

20 back and talk about how it applies and

21 alteration of existing vehicles.

22 So that is how we recommend we proceed.

23 Your concern right now, our recommendation is

24 don't focus on alteration, don't focus on

25 remanufacturer. I'm ordering a new vehicle,
72

1 what do I want; okay? What are my concerns

2 about the current guidelines as it relates to

3 things that need to be tweaked, changed,

4 revised, updated and we will throw it up there.

5 Like I said, we are not going to debate

6 the issues. That will come later, discuss the

7 issues and evaluate them.

8 What are your concerns? Janice?

9 MS. LINTZ: Of course I have like a

10 Christmas list. Every time there is sound --

11 MR. BEATTY: Woe, woe, woe. I'm only

12 saying this is how we proceed.

13 MS. LINTZ: I'm ready to delve in, come

14 on. You got me excited, Paul. I have been

15 waiting.

16 MR. WEISMAN: I have a question. Your

17 list of six, are we doing 1.a, b, c here?

18 MS. BUNALES: If you can speak slowly, we

19 won't have long sentences. Headlines.

20 MR. BEATTY: Headlines. We would like to

21 start with communication so Rose doesn't have

22 to jump all around. Someone said something

23 about sleeping compartments and someone said

24 something about communications. It is okay if

25 you later think of something some other day, it
73

1 can be added. We want an initial list so far.

2 We don't have to quibble, "That one should be

3 under sleeping and that one under

4 communications." We can do revisions, move

5 things around once we get our list refined.

6 So that is what I recommend and I'm going

7 to turn it back --

8 MR. RUTENBERG: I can give you a list of

9 things that should be discussed. First of all,

10 the dimensions and payloads.

11 MR. BEATTY: At this point, I will be

12 turning it over to Billy. It is very important

13 for those in the meeting, you raise your hand

14 so Billy can call on you. This is where it can

15 get really out of control. Rose needs to write

16 things down.

17 For those on the phone, I will let Rose

18 let us know.

19 MS. BUNALES: Did you want to go around

20 the table, maybe?

21 MR. BEATTY: That is a good idea. Go

22 around the table and then go around the room,

23 for those who are not at the table, and go

24 around the phone calls. You may have already

25 heard your issue raised. If you don't, that is
74

1 fine. We will tell you if it is up there or

2 the one up there needs to be subdivided, et

3 cetera.

4 The purpose is to identify your concern in

5 a bullet point. And later we will have a point

6 of going back and discussing them in more

7 detail.

8 MS. MAZZ: Paul, I may have missed it.

9 Did you make it clear that committee could add

10 additional categories?

11 MR. BEATTY: Correct. This is not the

12 only time.

13 MS. MAZZ: I mean today.

14 MR. BEATTY: Yes.

15 MR. SHIOTANI: What we do is turn your

16 name tag up and sit there until you are called

17 on.

18 MR. BEATTY: At this point I think the

19 Chair liked going around the table and starting

20 from left to right and going around the room.

21 That may be something the Chair may entertain

22 as we later discuss the issues.

23 Paul?

24 MR. GRETHER: Clarifying question. Is

25 this list for all the subparts or just for
75

1 intercity rail?

2 MR. BEATTY: Everything. That is a good

3 question in the sense that sometimes the rule

4 only is addressing a particular mode and a

5 particular issue may not apply to all modes.

6 If you can be more precise, that's fine. We

7 can later refine it. You can just say, "I'm

8 not going to worry about what mode this plugs

9 into; I'm just putting the issue up there."

10 Later we will refine and discuss it. But we

11 want to get it up there for purposes of further

12 refinement and evaluation.

13 So no more questions, I will give it back

14 to Billy.

15 MS. BUNALES: Actually, read what we have

16 on the screen now so the people on the phone

17 know what is up on the screen.

18 CHAIR ALTOM: I will do that. Up on the

19 screen right now: Number 11, communications.

20 Number 2 is boarding/alighting. Number 3 is on

21 board circulation. Four is restrooms. Five is

22 sleeping compartments and Number 6 is other

23 amenities. And as been said, we can add to

24 this. The list can grow.

25 But what I would like to do and I like the
76

1 idea of just going around the room. Let's try

2 this and see how it works.

3 But normally I always start with Andre on

4 my left, I'm going to break it up and do

5 something different. I will start with

6 Kenneth. Do you have anything to throw up on

7 the list?

8 MR. SHIOTANI: I have one thing and I

9 guess the primary will have another. My issue

10 is handrails and bridge plates or other

11 boarding issues, when handrails should be

12 required.

13 CHAIR ALTOM: Thank you.

14 And, Stan, you are next.

15 MR. HUNTER: I think you covered most of

16 the topics that I would be looking for

17 clarification and direction on here.

18 We have been working through the next

19 generation equipment committee. We have

20 incorporated some enhanced accessibility

21 features in the next generation equipment

22 committee bilevel cars that are currently under

23 design at Nippon Sharyo. They involve lift

24 characteristic, platform size, payload, some

25 enhanced toilet room features, wheelchair
77

1 parking spots, things like that.

2 And we are also involved heavily with the

3 development of effective dual mode

4 communication systems, including assistive

5 listening devices. So I'm particularly

6 interested in those features. I'm particularly

7 interested in those features, both in terms of

8 hearing what the community is looking for as

9 well as providing feedback of how we are

10 approaching it from a transit provider, an

11 equipment owner and transit owner perspective.

12 CHAIR ALTOM: Can you put it in a bullet

13 point?

14 MR. HUNTER: The headline would be for

15 dual mode communication for boarding and

16 alighting lift characteristics.

17 MR. BEATTY: Hang on so Rose can make sure

18 she is checking it.

19 MS. LINTZ: Can I just ask a question just

20 so I have clarification?

21 Stan, when you say you are putting in

22 assistive listening systems in rail cars, can

23 you clarify what that means?

24 MR. HUNTER: The induction loop assistive

25 listening device and we are doing it through a
78

1 task order with Amtrak as part of the onboard

2 information system and so I don't have the

3 specific details about it, but we are at the

4 point where we will be able to prescribe the

5 specific details. I will be looking for more

6 specific details from this group as to how to

7 go ahead and incorporate that into the new rail

8 cars as well as retrofit on existing at

9 CalTrans.

10 MS. LINTZ: So I understand, you are doing

11 induction loop in the rail car itself?

12 MR. HUNTER: That is correct. Dual mode

13 communication including assistive listening.

14 MS. HAMLIN: Can I just ask, could you

15 clarify what a dual mode communication -- I

16 mean, I think I know, but can you just make

17 that clear.

18 MR. HUNTER: A passenger communication

19 system involving both audible information as

20 well as visual information. So right now it is

21 a mostly a performance-based system and one of

22 the things that I hope to get from this group

23 is some specific details as to how to implement

24 such a system in an effective and compliant

25 manner.
79

1 MR. BEATTY: Give Rose direction of

2 details on installation of loop system.

3 MR. HUNTER: I think for this high-level

4 discussion this is good. And boarding and

5 alighting would be wheelchair lift

6 characteristics.

7 MS. BUNALES: I'm sorry. Dual mode

8 communications including assistive listening

9 and -- was there another item?

10 MR. HUNTER: Under boarding and lighting I

11 would just put wheelchair lift characteristics.

12 Thank you.

13 CHAIR ALTOM: Thank you, Stan.

14 Terry.

15 MS. PACHECO: Under communications I would

16 like us to put in all announcements and alerts

17 are both audio and visual. Tactile warning

18 strips and bright colors for exits and other

19 locations where appropriate. Particularly on

20 intercity trains, we need to deal with several

21 issues in the cafe and dining cars, especially

22 making the wall menus accessible in some way

23 for people with vision loss.

24 My last two -- let me ask a question. I'm

25 not certain that we have the purview on it.
80

1 And that is the kiosk issue, the issues of

2 people purchasing -- being able to purchase

3 tickets through a kiosk or electronic system.

4 CHAIR ALTOM: This is strictly for the

5 car.

6 MS. PACHECO: I was not sure there were

7 types of cars where you did it on the car. I'm

8 not familiar with it. If there are, I would

9 like to make that accessible.

10 MR. HART: So are you asking about proof

11 of payment validation equipment, either some

12 light rail cars like in Portland have onboard

13 fare validators?

14 MS. PACHECO: I had not thought of that,

15 but that is an interesting issue. I was

16 thinking more along the lines of actually

17 purchasing -- being able to actually make the

18 purchase. Choose that you want to put $10 on

19 your card or you are paying to go from Fort

20 Lauderdale to West Palm Beach, that type of

21 thing.

22 MR. HART: I'm not aware of anyone who has

23 kiosk on their cars but certainly fare

24 validation. An lot of agencies do have mobile

25 apps you can put on the phone.
81

1 MS. PACHECO: My last issue is easy

2 exiting situation, especially again on

3 intercity, for guide dog relief areas.

4 CHAIR ALTOM: Linda, did I hear you on

5 the phone trying to make a comment?

6 MS. MARTIN: I had a couple of points

7 about the guide dog relief areas, obviously

8 that would be a station-based issue, not a rail

9 car-based issue.

10 But the previous one regarding the kiosk,

11 we have run across commuter railroads that have

12 vending machines. I don't know if we should

13 foreclose about visual access to machines on

14 rail cars.

15 CHAIR ALTOM: Next up we will have Cliff.

16 What I would like to do just as a reminder

17 so we can get the issues out and hopefully make

18 lunchtime, just get ideas up. Let's get them

19 all out and on the table and then we will just

20 debate the crap out of them at a later time.

21 Now let's get ideas out there and we will

22 see if they stick or don't stick.

23 MR. PEREZ: I'm interested in ensuring

24 that we have clear signage that has got good

25 contrast, personally, with a dark background as
82

1 opposed to a light background. But clear block

2 letter, no fancy letter, no script, nothing

3 other than clear block letters like Ariel does.

4 And also clear announcements as to where

5 you are and where you're going and what is the

6 station and it would be helpful to have a

7 readout again with clear block letters that

8 also tells you what station the train is

9 stopping at and what would be the next station.

10 Those are my issues.

11 MR. VONASHEK: Nothing to add at this

12 time.

13 CHAIR ALTOM: Cool.

14 MS. GOLDEN: I mean, I think I could list

15 issues on all of these.

16 I mean, increased lift capacity, for

17 example. There have -- for buses and

18 paratransit, there is now lifts with 800-pound

19 capacity. So why not.

20 And I think this may be a new area, like

21 Marsha was saying, as opposed to a detail in an

22 area. But sort of -- we have boarding down but

23 then circulation space. Just the dimensions as

24 you go to where you're going, spend most of the

25 time on the ride. So I'm not sure we thought
83

1 that through or maybe we have and the built

2 environment of vehicles have not caught up with

3 our thinking.

4 I need to go back and look at the list

5 again because we don't have it in front of us.

6 I mean, there is -- definitely want to

7 look over sleeper cars again. Definitely want

8 to look over the restrooms. And want to look

9 at ADAAG and see what is applicable, and maybe

10 that is other amenities.

11 MS. BUNALES: Do you want me to repeat --

12 MS. GOLDEN: Actually I think other

13 amenities are things like you have, like

14 vending machines.

15 I'm saying, you know, other kinds of

16 requirements or other levels of requirements

17 like there may be a global circulation --

18 excuse me, protruding objects requirement we

19 want to add on the rail side. Or a global --

20 I'm not sure what else from the list that

21 Melissa went over that Linda promised us. So

22 there will be many sort of things to think

23 about, how do they apply to the train, what can

24 we do that we just shouldn't assume someone is

25 going to think about unless we tell them to
84

1 think about it.

2 The error of our ways have been not making

3 clear that that needs to be thought about.

4 CHAIR ALTOM: Thank you, Marilyn.

5 MS. HAMLIN: I agree with what the other

6 two have said. Audible announcements should be

7 accessible to people with hearing loss or who

8 are deaf. So anything audible should also be

9 visual or another method to get to someone who

10 has a hearing loss.

11 That should be anywhere on the train. I

12 don't want to separate out sleeping areas and

13 restrooms for that information. It should be

14 everywhere where anyone can get to on the

15 train.

16 I don't know if we can get to this, but it

17 occurred to me also employees should be able.

18 I thought first just passenger areas, but if

19 you have an employee with a hearing loss a

20 passenger would normally go to, that a person

21 would go to, that person should have visual

22 access as well.

23 Emergency alerting is specific and I don't

24 know if this is in the rules already but there

25 should be a backup. So if power is a problem,
85

1 there should be backup power for any kind of an

2 emergency, visual or audible alerting.

3 And then there should be written signage.

4 Eventually everything will be accessible

5 to everyone all the time and we won't need

6 signage, but I think there should be signage to

7 let people with hearing loss know what is

8 available to them.

9 The other issue for me is lighting is an

10 issue. If you can't see well, you can't hear

11 well. I know that sounds odd. With someone

12 with a hearing loss, they need to have clear

13 visual sight and lighting that is even and

14 clear so they can read what is available.

15 And those are really my main issues and,

16 again, as -- I won't go specifically into the

17 sleeping areas, although we could talk some of

18 the things that Andrew -- he had to leave

19 early. So let me also bring up issues in the

20 sleeping area, may not be an issue in other

21 areas like door knocker, how do you know

22 someone is going to be coming into your room.

23 Again, whatever is provided audibly in a

24 sleeping area -- and I'm not real familiar.

25 Let me toss it out now and we can get in the
86

1 weeds later about what those might be.

2 CHAIR ALTOM: Thank you.

3 MR. CAPON: I don't have anything to add

4 at this time.

5 CHAIR ALTOM: Thank you.

6 <<<: My name is John Stallsome (ph) with

7 MTA in New York. Under boarding and lighting,

8 we have some concerns with the definition of

9 level boarding at plugs or minus 5/8. Our

10 concern is we are building platforms to

11 accommodate 12-car trains. So you are looking

12 to control the relationship between a 1,000

13 train and 1,000 platform to within 5/8-inch

14 with varying passenger loading wheelchair and

15 construction tolerances.

16 I know there is an allowance for what is

17 operationally feasible, but we would rather

18 meet the rule. So we were hoping to discuss

19 what that parameter should be realistically.

20 MR. HOLBROOK: Big concern is the, I

21 guess, predeveloped 32 x 59 patch and for those

22 us who didn't participate in that, we have a

23 review and understanding of, you know, where

24 that came from. I understand the weight

25 increase, but understanding the effect of that
87

1 parking patch size on other modes, other than

2 intercity.

3 MR. CORAN: I have no other additional

4 items at this time.

5 MR. SAUCIER: Couple of things. First, it

6 came up in the NGEC PRIIA review specifically

7 with operational lift under super elevated

8 conditions creates some very nasty slopes. I

9 am sure you can make a piece of equipment that

10 can operate under those conditions, but the

11 real question is do you want to.

12 And then similarly with regard to ramps

13 and bridge plates and the requirements,

14 interpretations for side barriers on those

15 systems. Because, again, in a crowded

16 environment where you want to be able to, you

17 know, turn corners and be able to get onto the

18 equipment, is the side barrier equipment really

19 in everybody's best interest. That is what I

20 have. Thank you.

21 MR. CARLSON: I know this borders on

22 policies and procedures, but I think hardware

23 solution might be the answer to it.

24 And it has to do with both onboard

25 circulation, access to restrooms and boarding
88

1 and lighting for that matter, where you have

2 crowds of people standing in the accessible

3 areas and getting them to move, to vacate seats

4 that are fold down.

5 It might be an issue of trying to limit

6 the number of fold-up/fold-down seats that are

7 used in these areas as a mix use, such that you

8 are not going to have the issue of trying to

9 make that space available.

10 Again, as I call it mixed use seating

11 area, because it is people and luggage and baby

12 carriage and everything else that does not

13 qualify under ADA and accessibility standards.

14 They use this area and it almost becomes a

15 secondary issue that is an inaccessible feature

16 of the vehicle.

17 So we might want to address the hardware

18 that is installed in the area, i.e., folding

19 seats and other things that are counter

20 accessible.

21 CHAIR ALTOM: Thank you.

22 MR. HUGHSON: Nothing to add at this time.

23 CHAIR ALTOM: Thank you.

24 MS. LINTZ: Most of the comments were made

25 by Lise on audible and visual alerts. The key
89

1 thing is making sure it is in every location.

2 So whether it is in the restroom, the sleeping

3 compartment, the main sitting area, the food

4 sitting car induction loop where you are

5 purchasing the food, it has to be in every

6 single location. Wherever there is sound,

7 whether audible or voice, it should be both

8 visual and a loop type system.

9 As Lise said, the signage needs to be

10 posted because if the signage is not posted

11 both within the rail system -- I know we can't

12 do the place where -- the waiting room, the

13 station. But if people don't know about it

14 before getting on the train, they won't even

15 get on the train if they can't hear.

16 I don't know if this falls within the

17 purview, the website, having the information in

18 the website. So it can be on the train but we

19 can't tell them on the train? Really? That is

20 a loophole that should be closed.

21 MR. BEATTY: Remember your tasking is to

22 deal with the real vehicle.

23 MS. LINTZ: But how do you tell the people

24 about --

25 MR. BEATTY: You can't expand it outside
90

1 the parameters.

2 MS. LINTZ: So much for that.

3 MR. BEATTY: Not saying the issues people

4 raise is not valid issues, but the Board

5 tasking --

6 MS. LINTZ: I would say if you are putting

7 it on the car, it makes sense to let people

8 know you have it there. A recommendation.

9 MR. HART: And so renew the point that

10 Marsha made early. Identifying areas beyond

11 the car where you feel the Board should look

12 at, but the purview of the committee is only

13 inside.

14 MS. LINTZ: Okay. If we are going to

15 identify areas of the purview, then just the

16 rail station, the website.

17 CHAIR ALTOM: Thank you.

18 MR. HUNTER: Yeah, I just want to make one

19 quick comment to what Janice brought up.

20 Though I know we have a pretty strict

21 scope of what we are supposed to be doing in

22 terms of developing standards, I just want

23 everyone to know that when I hear comments such

24 as websites, station platform, signage, the off

25 equipment, those are all comments I am taking
91

1 note of to other people in our program to see

2 the feasibility of.

3 Because it is not in the strict scope of

4 the work product, doesn't mean it is not a

5 valid comment and doesn't mean -- transit

6 properties are here, the service providers and

7 equipment providers. We are all listening to

8 what is being said by the community. So any

9 constructive comments I'm happy to hear.

10 MS. LINTZ: That is what I was hoping.

11 MR. HOFF: Speaking to what Lise mentioned

12 about public address and onboard systems even

13 when we get to that, if we could better define

14 what the equivalent and visual equivalent means

15 so we can get closer to what the message is

16 actually saying and take out any ambiguity with

17 regard to what messages should or must be

18 provided for in the visual format as well as

19 the audible.

20 If it is going to be broadcast audibly, it

21 should be accurately and equivalently broadcast

22 visually. So if we can better define that

23 equivalency.

24 And also building on memory before me,

25 which is really good for me. A comment that
92

1 Cliff had made with regard to clarity of

2 character. In the years since the original

3 writing of the ADAAG and even since the recent

4 rewriting of ADAAG, technology has grown

5 tremendously between LCD, LED, plasma, so we

6 have much better systems today than before. We

7 can better define what we mean by "clarity of

8 character."

9 There are LED signs being purchased

10 because they are nice and cheap and off the

11 shelf. But compaction of LEDs, I don't think

12 we addressed that and how visible they are from

13 distances. Unlike a facility like you can see

14 something from a distance and you can approach

15 most signs from a distance, obviously most

16 people can't get closer to a sign inside of a

17 vehicle. They are fixed. They may be in their

18 seat and they can see it from a distance and it

19 is intended they see it from a distance. That

20 is what we should work to define, what the

21 distances are and the clarity of character. I

22 appreciate's Cliff's comment about clear block.

23 Let's clearly define what that means.

24 MR. WEISMAN: Couple of items. We should

25 talk about lift equipment and I know we have it
93

1 on the list. Operability of lift equipment, is

2 it operable by the user or should it be trained

3 personnel, for example.

4 The whole rail car alignment with the

5 platform, we are talking about dreams. Is it

6 possible to have rail cars do what elevators do

7 and find the platform? I and I know everybody

8 manufacturing rail cars is thinking "that guy,

9 what is he doing?" But that would solve a lot

10 of problems.

11 Priority seats on rail systems how does it

12 work and where do we require it and when do we

13 require it.

14 Lighting in accessible spaces and --

15 MR. HART: Hold on.

16 MR. WEISMAN: The lighting in accessible

17 space, and outlets and portables should also be

18 in accessible spaces. I guess the size of the

19 whole accessible space, maybe we should revisit

20 too.

21 CHAIR ALTOM: Awesome. Hold on one

22 second. We are waiting just one second for

23 Rose to catch up with our list and we will be

24 ready to roll. Not that Jim talks fast or

25 anything.
94

1 MR. WEISMAN: I apologize.

2 CHAIR ALTOM: Yes, Terry, while we're

3 holding.

4 MS. PACHECO: Could you repeat --

5 MS. BUNALES: Could you repeat the thing

6 you said about lighting?

7 MR. WEISMAN: Lighting requirements for

8 accessible spaces.

9 MR. HART: And the --

10 MR. WEISMAN: Yeah, the outlets, charging

11 stations, electricity for computers, anything

12 with the accessible space.

13 MR. HART: I swear you gave me a 10 number

14 list a few days ago.

15 MS. PACHECO: Just very briefly. One of

16 my many hats is as an alternate format person

17 specialist. What you, for examples, are

18 talking about about the signage, I want to give

19 you an excellent example while you are here in

20 D.C. A very, very good signage is at Union

21 Station. The departures and arrivals signage

22 there now, the new ones within the last couple

23 of years are excellent. They are a great

24 example, if someone happens to be around Union

25 Station.
95

1 CHAIR ALTOM: Jackson, we are ready now.

2 Thank you.

3 MR. XUE: At this moment I don't have

4 anything else to add to the list but I do want

5 to make a comment. I appreciate all the topics

6 that have been raised and I think they are

7 vital to this committee and vital for

8 discussion.

9 One of the things that I think we should

10 be cognizant of several agencies where we are

11 looking to adopt service proven equipment and

12 best practices overseas, I would be interested

13 in learning through our discussions what we are

14 raising -- what we are recommending to edit or

15 change, how these would effect the service

16 proven equipment that we will be looking to get

17 you.

18 MR. WEISMAN: I apologize. I left one out

19 I wrote down. Access to the special cars on

20 trains, like observation cars, and glass top

21 and dining. I'm not sure where it belongs

22 because it fits in a lot of them.

23 CHAIR ALTOM: Good point. It is up to

24 you now.

25 MR. SLAUGHTER: I could take all day, but
96

1 I won't.

2 First off someone mentioned earlier

3 maintaining the accessible spaces. And

4 obviously that effects us at Amtrak because it

5 is probably worse in some cases with commuter

6 authorities.

7 One of the things I'm stumped about for

8 years, all solutions do not involve changes to

9 equipment, particularly at Amtrak on intercity

10 service where we have more personnel available

11 to look after everyone's need. Universally, it

12 should be a lot less excuses for these things

13 happening.

14 It is not always a mechanical or

15 electrical solution to add complexity to a

16 vehicle that is the best solution going

17 forward. I would like us to keep that in

18 place.

19 I realize we can't effect individual

20 authorities, policies on their own railroads

21 and transit agencies, but I think some of the

22 take-aways here need to be able to push that

23 way. We can't do it here, obviously, but it is

24 a critical thing that has gone undealt with for

25 too long in the industry and we can't just hope
97

1 it will get better.

2 Okay. So on to things that effect cars.

3 One of the realities in our industry,

4 particularly on the intercity side, is the

5 volume of devices, the volumes of whether it is

6 cars or things that go in the cars are very

7 small. And I think there are some

8 opportunities within our industry collectively

9 to have some standardization that would make

10 certain amenities and devices more available

11 and practical.

12 And to that point, when we look at

13 accessible spaces, whether they are in coaches

14 or particularly in sleeping cars, I think there

15 is opportunity to develop devices that provide

16 control of amenities in the room or controls

17 that are immediately available to passengers to

18 someone with varying disabilities may not have

19 the same access. It is not dealt with in

20 specific terms but in general terms. I think

21 at the end of the day a lot of things go

22 unaddressed and unresolved.

23 So when we start looking at devices for

24 the hearing impaired in rooms and even on cars,

25 I wonder along with loops and improved visual
98

1 aids and my magical control device, I'll call

2 it, that a multi-function device, is there a

3 need for vibrating alerts that don't involve

4 bright lights and things like that that might

5 not be appropriate for the other passengers.

6 So I would like somehow to, you know, wrap

7 those things together.

8 I think that it is something that could

9 reach across a lot of modes and therefore make

10 it more practical and possible as we move

11 forward.

12 The technology, it's easy for us in the

13 industry, the providers or the manufacturers or

14 even people in community to say, "Well, you

15 can't do something." Well, technology is

16 taking the excuses away and giving us a way

17 forward. But if we don't talk about the

18 things, then there is no perceived need and

19 there is no solution.

20 So I would like for us to keep the concept

21 of multi-function devices overlaid and

22 integrated with vehicles to achieve higher

23 levels of accessibility and safety in this

24 conversation.

25 Let's see. I do have a question. I know
99

1 there have been activity with PRIIA as far as

2 recommendations for vehicle accessibility that

3 has been mentioned here. I'm not sure. Is

4 there an intention to bring all those topics

5 somehow in this discussion, because it effects

6 rail vehicle access? I think we would be

7 missing some opportunities to have some good

8 discussions if we don't bring that up because

9 they do effect space on board the trains,

10 particularly. For Amtrak and intercity, it is

11 very different quite often than it might be for

12 a high density commuter agencies, which starts

13 looking at spacial considerations.

14 Also I think it is important wherever we

15 can add definition, especially when we talk

16 about service animals, what kind of space do we

17 need to define for service animals to occupy

18 unencumbered. And also the relation of that

19 space to the person they are with. They are

20 not luggage; they have a job to do and they

21 need to be considered.

22 If they are not positioned correctly,

23 those animals are now confused or maybe even

24 panicked that they are not being allowed to be

25 where they are supposed to be.
100

1 The issues of light, traditionally

2 lighting has been driven by the technologies.

3 I think that there is a lot of new technologies

4 available for lighting. So as we discuss

5 improving lighting levels or improving task

6 lighting, so that maybe we have brighter

7 lighting conditions on demand for people who

8 need it, is a very possible thing these days.

9 Let's see. I did have something else.

10 Oh, I'm not sure where this would go, but

11 when we discuss amenities on the train, things

12 like windows and placement of accessible space,

13 for me, as we design things, I have always

14 tried to emphasize that whatever window space

15 is available to people generally needs to be

16 specifically available in the accessible areas.

17 And if the issue is that if there are 70

18 people in the car and 68 of them have a choice

19 about where they sit so they can have a window,

20 the two that don't have a choice about where

21 they are should have a window.

22 MR. HART: Just on a technical point, I

23 raise it partly because Amtrak has had issues

24 on the West Coast with some rail cars where

25 accessible seats did not have a window. And
101

1 last year a senior advisor at DOT had to endure

2 a very long --

3 MR. SLAUGHTER: Precisely. I will look

4 through my list and I will see other things I

5 want to comment on.

6 CHAIR ALTOM: Thank you. I know the list

7 will grow as we continue.

8 Andre.

9 MR. GAGNE: I had two topics on my list

10 that I would like to add. One of them is the

11 wheelchair securement device. And the second

12 one is the emergency evacuation devices as

13 well.

14 CHAIR ALTOM: Thank you.

15 Any recommendations from the folks on the

16 phone?

17 MS. BUNALES: Calvin Gibson, your line is

18 open if you wish to say anything.

19 MR. GIBSON: No thank you.

20 MS. BUNALES: Uwe Rutenberg?

21 MR. RUTENBERG: I some comments. I don't

22 have it right in front of me and I can't go

23 point by point but I will try to address some

24 of the issues.

25 The first is lifting and lighting. It was
102

1 mentioned before we need new lift

2 characteristics. I want to speak about

3 something that is the most forgotten and these

4 are three important factors.

5 One is the change of demographics that we

6 have. About 25 percent of our population will

7 be over 65 and it is estimated that 40 percent

8 of our population will be obese in the next

9 decade. We will also have and do have new and

10 bigger and heavier mobility devices, such as

11 scooters and power wheelchairs. And these two

12 certainly have an impact on characteristics

13 such as platform sizes and payloads, as was

14 mentioned before.

15 The next one is the circulation. It was

16 mentioned that space in the car of 30 x 48 is

17 required for a wheelchair. The 30 x 48 is a

18 footprint. This is not a parking space.

19 Research has shown in order to get into a

20 place with a wheelchair you need at least 30 x

21 60-inches. And this has been proven in

22 practice in areas, in buses and other places.

23 The other one is the restrooms. One of

24 the aspects that we forget very often is that

25 we need space for dependent and independent
103

1 transfer.

2 Some people in a wheelchair mobility

3 device can transfer from their chair to the

4 toilet independently, but there are also many

5 who need another person who will help them. So

6 there is an extra space that is required to

7 address this problem. And many of the present

8 washrooms on the train don't have the space

9 available.

10 On the sleeper compartment, we have to

11 address specifically bed heights that are

12 required for easy transfers from the wheelchair

13 to the bed.

14 Also the information of shower units, the

15 maneuvering space in front of the bed to get in

16 and out and tables required and also emergency

17 information for persons who are blind or Deaf.

18 In this communication issue I would add

19 one item that has been discussed before and

20 relate to real-time requirements for emergency

21 and evacuation information. In these cases

22 canned messages are not sufficient and

23 something has to be done in real-time.

24 On other issues, I just want to mention

25 floor space for service animals and their
104

1 companion. They have to be developed and

2 provided. And also the last one is seating for

3 obese persons who might require a wider and

4 stronger seat.

5 I just want to mention here also a study

6 we did for the FRA, Melissa Shurland can

7 explain this and I don't know if it is publicly

8 available but we have addressed all need issues

9 and items and functional requirements for the

10 next generation of high speed trains.

11 So if you would like that please contact

12 Melissa for that. Thank you.

13 MS. BUNALES: Frank Maldari, MTA Long

14 Island?

15 MR. MALDARI: I don't have anything to add

16 at this time.

17 MS. BUNALES: Ed Steinfeld, IDeA center?

18 MR. STEINFELD: Can you hear me okay?

19 MS. BUNALES: Yes.

20 MR. STEINFELD: I can't hear you. Can you

21 hear me?

22 CHAIR ALTOM: Yes.

23 MR. STEINFELD: I sent mine by email.

24 MS. BUNALES: He does say adjusting

25 current space requirements to accommodate
105

1 contemporary wheeled mobility device sizes.

2 This applies to lift sizes and capacities.

3 Cliff lower areas, circulation et cetera.

4 Rethinking the slope requirements for

5 ramps. Developing incentives in the rules to

6 promote innovative universal design practices.

7 Alternative standards for existing stations and

8 rolling stops. Standards for accessible

9 websites and Smart Phone apps. Is there more?

10 Okay.

11 MR. STEINFELD: Thank you.

12 MS. BUNALES: David Knight, Department of

13 Justice, your line is open.

14 MR. KNIGHT: I'm here, but I have no

15 comment.

16 MS. BUNALES: Okay. Thank you. Jonathan

17 Michael, RailPlan?

18 MR. MICHEL: I have a few comments. I

19 think for everyone's purposes, I think it is

20 very, very important that all the parties

21 representing either car builders as well as the

22 agencies are able to provide their intent for

23 future rail orders and their current rolling

24 stock so that the feasibility of these ADA

25 implementations can be fully assessed and
106

1 accurately kind of cost analysis associated

2 with them.

3 I think until we are able to get all this

4 information compiled, it's very, very difficult

5 for all of us to establish what is feasible and

6 what is doable.

7 I would also like to add that this would

8 greatly help us in our area of signage and what

9 can be done better as far as signage location

10 based on our current (inaudible) that other

11 agencies will be purchasing in the future.

12 One of my comments as well since we are

13 dealing with light rail Metro commuter

14 intercity, the footprint of accessible space

15 may vary per car type and per equipment type.

16 This should be taken into account as well when

17 we are developing this.

18 I know we were trying to stay away from

19 having subparts to each rail vehicle, but I

20 think that the first exercise of being able to

21 dissect what is currently in the marketplace

22 and what each agency has is vital to our

23 success. That is all I have.

24 MS. BUNALES: And the last one on is Linda

25 Martin, FRA.
107

1 MS. MARTIN: Yeah, I have a few things.

2 First of all -- I'm sorry. What is your first

3 name? Michael. That is your last name?

4 MR. MICHEL: Jonathan.

5 MS. MARTIN: You just spoke. One thing,

6 the FRA has made a fairly concerted effort to

7 have Amtrak and the statements that belong to

8 the 305 Committee to develop specifications for

9 rail cars, which, you know, would standardize

10 certain elements of rail cars.

11 And I'm not sure if anybody has completely

12 explained that yet to the people in the room

13 who don't know what that is and maybe I could

14 leave that to Stanton to do at some point

15 because I think it is important we keep

16 throwing around the 305 Committee and PRIIA and

17 specifications and folks need to understand

18 what those are.

19 The bilevel specifications included

20 certain items that go above and beyond what the

21 minimums are in part 38 that we are looking at.

22 That keeps being brought up and I'm not sure

23 everybody understands all this.

24 As far as a list -- and this was sort of

25 developed over the years at FRA, various issues
108

1 with various parts of the rule. It may not be

2 completely exhaustive, but things like interior

3 circulation has been a big one. And whether or

4 not aisleways in rail cars can accommodate a

5 wheelchair to roll through a car as opposed to

6 being relegated to one space at the end of a

7 car.

8 Again, I'm just throwing these things out

9 there for consideration.

10 The other that everybody else has

11 mentioned or many people have mentioned the

12 wheelchair parking dimensions. Wheelchairs are

13 longer and heavier than they used to be.

14 I personally sat in a wheelchair that fits

15 the wheelchair of the wheelchair including the

16 length, but in many spaces -- I mean, I have to

17 parallel park and I end up sitting sideways in

18 some rail cars because the space is not long

19 enough and I know I'm not the only one.

20 Another one having to do with the lighting

21 and the amenities that are provided in the

22 wheelchair space. There is a requirement that

23 for some cars that are hard surface for people

24 to eat should be provided for people using

25 wheelchairs. In several intercity cars that is
109

1 not available currently.

2 My point of saying that part of the issue

3 with that is I think there is nothing

4 specifically in the regs regarding what those

5 tables should look like, the dimensions and all

6 of that. To the extent we can look at that,

7 that might be helpful.

8 Another amenities like someone mentioned

9 like a plug-in, if there is Internet, if there

10 is a movie being shown on the second level.

11 I personally rode on Auto Train to Florida

12 one time, it is a 21-hour ride or more, and sat

13 in one space the entire time. They were

14 showing movies and having a lot of fun on the

15 second level, just a thought on that one.

16 Sleepers. The sleeper regulation right

17 now says the bathroom facilities in them should

18 meet the same sort of requirements that are if

19 the regs for the bathrooms in coach cars.

20 As Blair and others at Amtrak know, this

21 is nearly impossible given the space there is

22 to work with. So those need to be made --

23 those regs need to be made much more realistic.

24 In lounge and bistro cars when the

25 regulations in the ADA was written, Amtrak had
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1 dining cars. No one had lounge and bistro

2 cars. It has become a bigger thing including

3 in commuter rail. There is no requirement for

4 things like ice dispensers or condiment

5 dispensers, if they are provided for persons

6 with disabilities.

7 Countertops with those items came up with

8 those issues. There ought to be a countertop

9 or service window that is accessible to people.

10 And I'm losing my voice because I'm getting

11 sick.

12 I want to reiterate how important the dual

13 mode communication piece is. Our current

14 regulations where they don't require it, they

15 also don't preclude them. But having the more

16 explicit we can be in the guidelines and

17 eventually the reg, I think the more helpful

18 that would be to the industry.

19 Just a point about window design and this

20 is a completely sort of pie in the sky

21 suggestion. Will you require station signs to

22 be visible from the inside of rail cars? It is

23 in part to deal with the issue of Deaf people

24 not hearing announcements. That is still a

25 requirement, but there is an issue where the
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1 windows are placed. If you are standing or

2 sitting in some places, different part of the

3 rail car, you can't look out the window to see

4 the signage. We have come up with various ways

5 to have different level signs, three or four

6 signs at different heights at the station so

7 everybody can see them.

8 But perhaps windows could be designed to

9 accommodate being able to see out from them,

10 whether you are sitting or standing.

11 The last one I wanted to mention has to do

12 with boarding devices.

13 Our experience is that station-based

14 equipment is not always the best. And I know

15 we are not talking about lifts here. Even the

16 bridge plates that are kept under lock and key

17 on station platforms, I personally have

18 experienced -- even when I was going to

19 attend -- sorry Amtrak. Where the bridge plate

20 was unavailable and it took 10 or 15 minutes

21 for someone to find someone with a key to go

22 and get it and get me on the train.

23 To the extent we consider on board

24 boarding devices, whether they be on board sort

25 of transitional bridge plates or ramps or
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1 lifts, I think it may be a better solution than

2 relying on anything station-based.

3 And that is all I have. Thank you.

4 CHAIR ALTOM: You're welcome. Thank you,

5 Linda.

6 MS. BUNALES: Actually I have Dennis

7 Cannon on the line. Operator will you unmute

8 Dennis Cannon.

9 Dennis, did you have anything to add?

10 MR. CANNON: As I said, I have a short

11 list and I will be giving it to Paul. Many of

12 the things that are mentioned are, in fact,

13 things that I think need to be fixed, like the

14 bathroom that is really not accessible. That

15 is based on an old Amtrak design and we sort of

16 force fed it into the regulations.

17 On the other hand, the Acela bathroom is

18 quite accessible and I think we should move to

19 that.

20 And we also have problems with

21 maneuverability in the sleepers. And Uwe

22 Rutenberg has done designs of both accessible

23 restrooms and sleepers for Canada. So I think

24 we are going to want to look at what he can

25 give us diagrams of.
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1 I know talking to folks at Amtrak a long

2 time about the Acela drawings, I was told that

3 the drawing were proprietary. Would Bombardier

4 know on the panel? Maybe we can get around

5 that. We need good drawings as well as

6 technical provisions.

7 MR. RUTENBERG: I can answer this.

8 Information I can make available to you, the

9 drawings for the accessible coach and also for

10 the sleeper.

11 CHAIR ALTOM: Thank you. Andre,

12 question.

13 MR. GAGNE: There is also very good

14 designs for accessible toilets in Europe and I

15 can retrieve those and show them to the panel.

16 CHAIR ALTOM: Please do.

17 MR. TALBOT: Thank you, Mr. Chair. I sent

18 this to Rose so she has got this. I'm not

19 going try to put it in all the buckets there,

20 but I will kind of read this off.

21 Exterior door widths. Today in intercity

22 it is 32. I would ask the committee to revisit

23 that and see if that is the right number. And

24 then on heavy rail vehicles or light rail

25 vehicles, what is the minimum door leaf. So
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1 what do you want the minimum door leaf to be,

2 so if one leaf sticks in a closed position that

3 people can still get on and off the train.

4 Automated rail car mounted bridge plate or

5 gap filler device for level boarding platform.

6 So you would have something that would

7 automatically articulate.

8 Also -- I don't know if you are going to

9 be able to look at this or not but just one

10 from the platform side where you had a platform

11 version of that where you would have a gap

12 filler device that was automated where the

13 train pulls up and the platform fills the gap.

14 I agree with Linda's comment about the

15 bridge plate. I have bridge plate use for

16 level boarding platforms, what is the minimum

17 requirements to push that out. And also stowed

18 and carried on the rail car so we find a way to

19 keep that with the rail car where people are

20 who need to get on and off the train.

21 And kind of as you get through the door,

22 the threshold size and really define what the

23 threshold should be.

24 Often in some rail cars the threshold can

25 be an inch or inch and a half high, which
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1 creates a tough path to travel for a lot of

2 people.

3 The aisle width of seating areas. Today

4 it is 32-inches. And should that be 32-inches?

5 Back to Linda's point. Is there a way to make

6 a car or some cars where we have an actual

7 passageway between seats, where we can have a

8 wide enough aisle for that.

9 The vestibule size and clear space with no

10 protrusion. Defining what the vestibule needs

11 to be and the right size. The whole protrusion

12 is along an accessible route and you flush that

13 out.

14 Power outlets at all accessible seating

15 locations. Trade surfaces or hard surface to

16 work or eat at all your accessible seating

17 areas and that would include the transfer seat

18 as well as the occupied wheel mobility device

19 space.

20 And transfer seat orientation where we

21 have the ability to sit in the direction of

22 travel. Where today that is not always the

23 case. And just having the availability where

24 if the train is going this way, you are not

25 sitting the opposite way, unless you choose, if
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1 you have that ability to sit in direction of

2 travel.

3 Seat removal process. This is tricky. If

4 you could require that seats were easily

5 removal so in any event people with

6 disabilities needed additional space, it

7 wouldn't be a large hit for the agency, whoever

8 it is, and really it would only apply to

9 commuter and intercity. But then they could

10 easily go in and remove the seats and

11 additional people along the route could travel

12 and they wouldn't have to fund a really large

13 effort to make it happen.

14 Accessible seating area signage in

15 accessibility formats so everyone knows it is

16 assessable seating area.

17 Windows.

18 Calling device to alert the train crew

19 that a person wants to get off the train. I

20 think this is really critical. The call device

21 has to be accessible, number one, for visual or

22 audio. Having that there so if someone forgets

23 you want to get off, you have the ability to

24 communicate with someone because they can be

25 three or four cars away from you and that is
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1 true in commuter rail as well.

2 Review existing accessible restroom

3 footprint. I think Dennis already covered

4 that. I couldn't agree more. If you guys can

5 really dive into that and come away with Acela

6 hybrid for other cars, I think we would be in

7 great shape.

8 Accessible requirements for self-serve

9 food in dining cars, et cetera. It gets to the

10 ice machine, the cup, the lids, the stirrers,

11 the coffee pots, sandwiches, things like that.

12 Defining what the accessibility requirements

13 are, far beyond the counter height. So the

14 reach range on passenger amenities or food

15 service or bistro cars, whatever we are calling

16 them.

17 An accessible route from a cafe car or

18 lounge car from adjacent accessible seating

19 area. So asking the committee to revisit what

20 is in the reg today and beefing that up so we

21 get the path of travel onto the food service

22 car so we are able to do that independently.

23 I think Linda brought up the movie on the

24 second level. I basically said making the same

25 amenities from the second level to the first
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1 level. That would include a movie. I would

2 really ask you to visit onboard lift systems

3 and access to the dome cars and the site seeing

4 cars and things like that.

5 Emergency evacuation from rail cars. This

6 is another thing that the committee could look

7 at in making sure people with disabilities are

8 not left behind in the event that the rail car

9 just breaks down and you can't get us off.

10 A couple of things with the sleeper.

11 Light controls that are inaccessible from the

12 bed or the clear space. So if you are sitting

13 in the bed and someone left a light on the

14 second unit, like if you are by yourself and

15 you are in a moving train trying to get back in

16 the chair and moving over and get back. So

17 really thinking ergonomically how all of that

18 is accessible.

19 Dennis had mentioned interior circulation

20 with the bed deployed. The bed is still a

21 couch. It is not good and not horrible but

22 when you make it into a bed it is really tough.

23 That is it. And I emailed this to Rose.

24 Thank you, very much, Mr. Chair.

25 MR. CANNON: When I was asked by FRA to go
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1 up to Maine to look at the Bombardier prototype

2 and there were a couple of things in there that

3 was nice. One was a power door on the restroom

4 and the other was a very nice folding table at

5 the accessible spot, which is very useful. And

6 unfortunately when the cars got delivered, I

7 don't know who made the decision, there is no

8 power door on the restroom anymore. In some of

9 the cars you can see a square metal plate on

10 the wall where the button used to be.

11 The other, underneath the table somebody

12 has added a vertical post which is bolted to

13 the bottom of the table and to the floor. So

14 there may be 30 x 48 clear space at that table

15 but it is impossible to get to because that

16 post stops you. I have to kind of back into

17 the space and turn as far as I can until my

18 footrest hits the post, leaving my footrest

19 sticking out into the aisle.

20 I was told that the reason the post is

21 there because some stability issues or

22 something with the table. But that is a

23 technical fix. And I think we need to add from

24 the ADAAG, for example, or maybe a modified

25 version, knee and toe clearance. We don't have
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1 that anywhere.

2 The folding table that currently exists in

3 the sleeper is low. You can't get under it.

4 You are trying to eat, which is difficult

5 enough on a moving train, with this table out

6 in front of you, you can't get up to it. And

7 controls are another issue that are really

8 important.

9 The controls for -- lights of course. The

10 person up there wants to be able to turn the

11 light on and off but there needs to be a

12 redundant control down below. So you can turn

13 it on an off. That is not the case with the

14 current sleeper. I usually have to have the

15 conductor turn it off, if I don't remember

16 that, to go to sleep. The lights are on and

17 there is no way to do that.

18 The accessible compartment in the double

19 decker, which has the curtains right in the

20 room, which is not very desirable, has two

21 seats facing each other on one side of the

22 table and those convert to a bed. But the

23 controls for everything are up behind you when

24 you are sitting in one of those seats out of

25 reach, not only is it too high but it is in the
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1 corner. Even when sitting in that seat, and I

2 did transfer once, it is impossible to reach

3 the controls. Make sure we apply the

4 principles to the various kinds of things like

5 controls.

6 The issue about the table -- by the way,

7 the ADA says a solid surface in which to

8 reach -- I'm working on the provision and the

9 idea was a table but what it evolved to is some

10 people think if they give you a plastic tray

11 with plates on it and you can balance it on

12 your knees that is a solid surface on which to

13 eat.

14 We need to clarify the intent was clearly

15 a table that is either attached to the wall or

16 possibly attached to the chair, like some of

17 the airlines have in the armrests.

18 And finally, the last thing, the issue

19 about the number of seats. It says at least

20 one, no more than two. That is a provision

21 that is actually in the statute, not just the

22 regulation. And the reason that showed up is

23 because during the discussions, the commuter

24 rail folks especially wanted to be able to make

25 a single accessible car into which they would
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1 put all disabled people. So there would be

2 only one accessible car on a train. That was

3 referred to as the cattle car solution.

4 That is why there is a limit on the

5 maximum number of wheelchair spaces. But if

6 you have two people in power chairs, you can

7 not both ride together in the same compartment.

8 You have to ride in two separate cars.

9 I'm in favor of just eliminating at least

10 one and saying two. Because two for everybody

11 else. That's all.

12 CHAIR ALTOM: Thank you, Dennis.

13 MR. CAPON: Two quick comments and I guess

14 it is something perhaps to add to the list.

15 One, I sent around a picture of the new

16 Amtrak dining car at Elmira as it appeared when

17 I was there on October 24. But Stan tells me

18 the configuration has been changed since I took

19 the picture. Be advised what you see in the

20 picture is not what you get. The change is an

21 improvement from accessibility point of view,

22 but I won't comment on it since I have not seen

23 it.

24 I think the movies are all gone because

25 everyone is using their own personal devices.
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1 If they are not gone yet, they are not going to

2 last. Certainly mostly gone from Amtrak.

3 And, finally, based on a previous comment,

4 is it possible to procure a Superliner anymore

5 because of the impracticality of getting

6 wheelchairs on the second level? Does that

7 mean that is the end of Superliner? Just a

8 question and maybe something for the list.

9 CHAIR ALTOM: Right now we are still just

10 presenting issues and I would like to hold on

11 to that piece. I have three folks in the

12 queue.

13 One thing I want to point out it is almost

14 12:35. I promised everybody lunch at 12:30.

15 Let's get the people in the queue and do that

16 and be as quick as we can. Start at the end.

17 Lise.

18 MS. HAMLIN: Just quickly. It is actually

19 a question can be covered. Some of these

20 features we are talking about, accessibility

21 features need to be maintained. So the

22 question is, can we put in requirements for

23 maintaining and using accessibility features to

24 the extent --

25 MR. CANNON: It is already part of the
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1 regs. DOT.

2 MS. MARTIN: It is part 37 and not 38. It

3 is already in our regulation.

4 MS. MAZZ: You cannot put it in the design

5 and construction requirements for the vehicles.

6 Whether it was in the reg or was not in the

7 reg, it is not part of design and construction.

8 MR. VONASHEK: For the boarding with

9 lighting, I would just like us to keep in mind

10 some of the operations do share rack cage (ph)

11 with Class 1 freight railroads and it is

12 extremely important in the design and we need

13 to keep it in mind.

14 The second thing is when we develop the

15 regulations or the advisory, we need to keep in

16 mind certain operations like commuter railroads

17 were already regulated by the FRA. We need to

18 make sure there is not that overlap.

19 For example, the conductor call button I

20 think is a requirement coming out in the FRA

21 regulations. We need to keep that in mind as

22 we move forward.

23 MR. HUNTER: Something that has been

24 mentioned several times yesterday and today and

25 Linda Martin did a great job of bringing it up
125

1 a short while ago, that is, accessibility has

2 been a big topic with the next generation

3 equipment committee both with the development

4 of specifications under contract as well as

5 developing and managing an accessibility policy

6 group that has looked at standards and looked

7 at how those standards can be enhanced.

8 And I think maybe I would like to suggest

9 at the next meeting -- I don't want to put the

10 FRA necessarily on the spot. But Melissa

11 Shurland has done an outstanding job of

12 providing liaison from the disability community

13 and the FRA and into the GMAC in terms of the

14 accessibility policy group.

15 Maybe for the purpose of going forward

16 next session in January, maybe we can ask the

17 FRA to provide a presentation on how the NGNC

18 is addressing the issues, changes to lift

19 design and changes to designated parking areas,

20 things like that, and at least provide this

21 group with an update of how some of the

22 standards are already shifting through the next

23 generation equipment committee. And that might

24 answer a lot of the committees that -- a lot of

25 the issues that have been raised this morning.
126

1 CHAIR ALTOM: Thank you, Stan.

2 Now, then our next thing is to figure out

3 how we want to proceed from this.

4 How many folks are leaving and will not be

5 back? One, two, three, four.

6 MR. CAPON: I'm leaving at 1:45 so if it

7 is an hour lunch, I guess I'm gone.

8 CHAIR ALTOM: Five.

9 What we are going to try to do is after we

10 finish this -- after lunch is figure out a way

11 to prioritize this and there will be time for

12 folks in the audience to present their issues

13 as well.

14 MR. SINGH: I can send comments via email.

15 CHAIR ALTOM: So having said that, let's

16 take a break for lunch. Anybody have final

17 comments before we take a break for lunch?

18 Awesome. We will be back at 1:45. That

19 gives us an hour and five minutes. So we will

20 break for lunch until 1:45.

21 Whereupon, from 12:39 p.m. to 1:48 p.m.

22 the luncheon recess was taken.)

23 CHAIR ALTOM: Thank you all, very much,

24 for coming back. I hope everyone enjoyed their

25 lunch break. Had a great discussion earlier.
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1 We were taking comments for our committee,

2 looking at different issues. We identified

3 six: Onboard circulation, restrooms, sleeping

4 compartments, other/amenities. Those kinds of

5 things.

6 As you all had a chance to have lunch, was

7 there anything we omitted from the group here

8 at the table they would like to add to the list

9 that we didn't get?

10 Blair?

11 MR. SLAUGHTER: There were a couple of

12 things that -- or maybe the cause of some of

13 the comments that I heard Dennis and some of

14 the other folks make.

15 One was in the Acela program we had a nice

16 fold-down table for the accessible seat. The

17 problem we ran into there were structural

18 concerns driven by the FRA.

19 That points out a very real issue as we

20 move through discussing accessibility issues

21 that very often they run in conflict with other

22 regulations.

23 This group can deal with it but if we have

24 things that are legitimate accessibility

25 concerns, then we need to find a way through
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1 the DOT to push those things for consideration,

2 whatever they can do to accommodate those

3 concerns.

4 CHAIR ALTOM: Anybody else have anything

5 from lunchtime? Marilyn?

6 MS. GOLDEN: I sent a list to Paul. I

7 could say it, if you want.

8 MR. HART: And, Marilyn, I know you

9 mentioned a bunch of things to me yesterday --

10 MS. GOLDEN: Yeah. Some of them are

11 redundant. I know people said table for your

12 laptop for your lunch or dinner. Electric

13 outlet. Redundant controls that are

14 accessible, there is inaccessible controls,

15 trimode announcement, audio visual and things

16 like WiFi. Light rail 32-inches doors was a

17 radical notion at the time, but maybe today I

18 don't see why not.

19 Europe they have the announcement screens

20 over the door. It is a nice feature. I want

21 to throw that out. I don't know if it is a

22 good solution. The power doors were said. I

23 think, the turning radius in the sleeping rooms

24 I think was said. Two people using power

25 chairs should be able to ride together.
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1 MR. WEISMAN: I didn't think power doors

2 were mentioned.

3 MS. GOLDEN: Oh, okay. All right. Well,

4 the sliding doors -- there is a lot of issues

5 around some of the sliding doors and I don't

6 know if power will help or not. You need to be

7 able to lock them but also the conductor needs

8 to get in. And there are times you don't lock

9 them and the train goes around curves and they

10 slide open and closed. There are a lot of

11 issues around the sliding doors. I think we

12 can brainstorm all the problems and I don't

13 know if we can find one thing to fix it.

14 Turning radius in sleepers and the toilet

15 rooms and the bathrooms in the sleepers. And I

16 think some of the California cars that has been

17 said as one model. Some of my own state trains

18 are good on that.

19 CHAIR ALTOM: Thank you. That is one of

20 the things I thought of too when you mentioned

21 the fact a lot of the operational controls on

22 the doors, especially in the sleeper car, I had

23 to look at it for several minutes until I

24 figured out how it actually worked and then it

25 takes both hands to make it latch. So it is
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1 kind of interesting.

2 What I would like to do next is all of us

3 go around the table. We had an opportunity to

4 speak. On the agenda I had a place for public

5 comment period.

6 What I would like to do, so I don't lose

7 track of what we're doing in this particular

8 activity, is ask if there is anyone from the

9 public who would like to add anything to the

10 list we had or if there are any comments that

11 they wanted to make so we could get those in.

12 And I saw a hand go up immediately.

13 David, down here at the end.

14 MR. NELSON: Okay. My name is David

15 Nelson. I'm with Amtrak. I have been involved

16 with transportation issues for Deaf people. I

17 went to Florida for the weekend and I would

18 like to tell you about my experience with the

19 airport.

20 I think what I experienced could apply

21 here to cars. Let's say you have a radio

22 transmitter frequency and an emergency message

23 could be sent to a Smart Phone or any alert

24 like a train would be late or the train has

25 been cancelled, you know, important messages
131

1 could be sent. I have no skills with radio

2 frequency. I don't know anything much about

3 them. But if it works in an airport, it could

4 probably work in a train and I think we should

5 look at that issue.

6 CHAIR ALTOM: Very good. Thank you.

7 MR. REUTER: I'm pretty loud so if anybody

8 can't hear me.

9 CHAIR ALTOM: We will let the people with

10 the loops listen.

11 MR. REUTER: My name is Bob Reuter and I

12 am here merely as somebody who has ridden

13 Amtrak from coast to coast, north to south and

14 Europe and Asia and a whole bunch of other

15 places. I haven't been on a plane since 2002.

16 I think you are on the high level fly, it

17 should be sleepers and dinners, rather than

18 just sleepers.

19 Some of these may be redundant. Food

20 vending machines are not used in American

21 trains and Amtrak now, but they have been used

22 in the past and they may be in the future. So

23 I think there needs to be complete regs on food

24 vending machines.

25 Beds, well, when I ride on the
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1 Superliners, I take the mattress from the upper

2 level to put it on the lower level to get it

3 high enough so I can transfer. So we really

4 need to get coordination between the seats and

5 the sleepers.

6 Power supplies in the sleeper car.

7 Especially if you have a charge power chair or

8 something like that, it gets interesting. I'm

9 going to pick on the View Liner because the

10 only outlet on the View Liner is between the

11 two doors, on the wall between the two doors.

12 It is next impossible to use it if you don't

13 bring your own extension cord.

14 I was picking on Amtrak today. You don't

15 have to go to California. The train I came

16 over on this morning they put a luggage

17 container in front of the windows and you sit

18 in front of the blank wall. And MARC is

19 especially good at making sure you sit in front

20 of a blank wall.

21 The site seer lounge. Somebody said, "You

22 have a special room." I said, "No, special is

23 being able to ride on the rear platform of an

24 observation car.

25 On some of the trains you have docent and
133

1 guides and cheese and wine tasting on the

2 Starlight but you never get to do it. And even

3 if there was some way to get a receiver so you

4 could listen to the docent up on the sleeper --

5 some of these people have some interesting

6 information to pass out while you are traveling

7 on the train. I know through the southwest

8 there was a Native American got onboard and was

9 talking all about the area and I missed the

10 thing.

11 Emergency equipment, not just being

12 alerted to the emergency. I ride MARC all the

13 time and I remember the MARC accident where the

14 kids got killed. I know how to open the

15 emergency exits and I could have got it open.

16 I couldn't get it open because to get to the

17 emergency release requires tight twisting and

18 grasping and one is up there.

19 While I know how to open the emergency

20 exit, I could not reach it. These are the kind

21 of things -- you only need them once, like

22 Blair was saying about the emergency escapes on

23 the window and the accident down there.

24 The PRIIA cars. The ones I have seen the

25 early plans on have the wheelchairs riding with
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1 the bikes, accessible restroom, the bikes and

2 the wheelchairs. That is it. That is -- I

3 don't think ADA even came close to putting that

4 up.

5 Something else that has not been addressed

6 and probably should be is the automated rail

7 systems.

8 New York City is starting to do this,

9 playing with subway train. I know France has

10 done it and maybe other ones. I sat on the

11 original DOT committee that wrote the regs. I

12 was the only one that saw the low floor

13 vehicle. Now they are everywhere. Anyone have

14 complaints about the low floor regulations, I

15 wrote them because I was the only one that knew

16 what they were. The same thing with the

17 automated rail systems. They are very new. It

18 is just beginning to happen. I only know of

19 two here in the United States but I expect to

20 see -- New York City is talking about doing

21 more and more of them on the automated rail. I

22 guess Jim would probably know more about that

23 than I do.

24 We are going to see more and more of the

25 automated rail system and I think we need to
135

1 have regs for that.

2 We joked about it earlier, large group. I

3 think there needs to be a way to take a large

4 group. I rode with ADI at sometime. The

5 people at Amtrak must have died. There were 50

6 some odd people with wheelchairs. They knew we

7 were coming. We road to BWI in a baggage car.

8 It was a rolling party for all intents and

9 purposes. I wouldn't want to ride too far like

10 that.

11 That is all on my list. I would certainly

12 like to present myself available for one of the

13 subcommittees or something.

14 CHAIR ALTOM: Thank you.

15 MR. REUTER: I think I sent Paul my resume

16 but I will give you one next.

17 MR. NELSON: Excuse me, this is David.

18 May I speak?

19 MR. GRETHER: My name is Paul Grether. I

20 apologize if you can't see me. I'm in the

21 audience area.

22 My comments are on behalf of the American

23 Public Transportation Association and are

24 specific to areas covered in subpart D, the

25 light rail and street car portion of the
136

1 guidelines.

2 Some of the issues in some of these I

3 mentioned yesterday that our subcommittee and a

4 lot of the systems that are currently building

5 or operating light rail or street cars that

6 include low floor vehicles, this was referenced

7 earlier, we run into several issues that are

8 actually -- portions of the guidelines that are

9 hindering our ability to provide maximum

10 accessibility and that is what we would like to

11 have addressed.

12 Specifically issues involving near level

13 boarding that involve the use of bridge plates.

14 The original bridge plate language in subpart D

15 were written when bridge plates were used three

16 feet in the air to go from a mini high block

17 to -- so there are attributes in the

18 regulations for the bridge plates that are

19 very, very difficult to achieve with low floor

20 vehicles, particularly the side barriers, the

21 use of the truncated half domes that are on the

22 tactile strip. That is a very poor landing

23 surface for a bridge plate.

24 The other new technology with low floor

25 vehicles is fully level boarding where the
137

1 bridge plate is not even required.

2 So we would like to discuss, including

3 references to that in the regulations, defining

4 when things should be fully level and how near

5 level boarding could or should be provided.

6 Because right now a lot of systems have to have

7 findings of equivalent facilitation and it

8 becomes nonsensical. It is a regulatory

9 exercise with no purpose because it is hurting

10 the ability to provide accessibility. That is

11 one issue.

12 The other issue is integration of street

13 car, in particular street car stops with buses,

14 with fully level boarding you are required to

15 use a 14-inch platform. Some systems want to

16 have shared stops.

17 I know we are looking just at rail because

18 this impacts buses, because we are building

19 infrastructure at bus stops. A bus cannot use

20 a 14-inch curve, it is too high, particularly a

21 low floor bus. So how to look at the

22 accessibility of the overall transit system.

23 Differentiating legacy and new

24 construction systems, potentially having

25 different regulations either to maximize
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1 accessibility -- and I think there was

2 reference made earlier to the door width and

3 several modern low floor vehicles have end

4 doors or smaller leaf doors and looking at

5 accessibility issues related to that.

6 We are very, very anxious -- and I believe

7 Charles is here with APTA staff. We would like

8 to provide our subcommittee members a technical

9 resource to discuss those items if and when the

10 committee deems it may be appropriate.

11 CHAIR ALTOM: David, you're on.

12 MR. NELSON: I would like to clarify what

13 was just said. Related to the baggage car. We

14 don't allow anyone to ride in a baggage car.

15 That is against our policy. And if it happened

16 before my time, I certainly apologize for that.

17 But we will not permit that now and will not be

18 permitted in the future. I just wanted to make

19 the clarification.

20 MR. REUTER: That was 20 some years ago.

21 MR. NELSON: I have been working there for

22 23 years, but that was more or less before my

23 time, but it is not allowed any longer.

24 CHAIR ALTOM: Thank you for that

25 clarification, David.
139

1 MR. HART: I was just going to thank our

2 friends here who are going to continue to

3 provide technical data to help us going

4 forward.

5 So if there are issues like bus, street

6 car, we will need that data.

7 CHAIR ALTOM: I agree with Chris.

8 I think we have Gary.

9 MR. TALBOT: Thank you, Mr. Chair. Just

10 wanted to add one more thing on the list, if we

11 could.

12 I was talking to Marsha briefly and just

13 as an option in case the onboard lift for

14 access to the second level and dining and the

15 dome car and stuff like that, if by chance that

16 wouldn't work, maybe a fall-back would be some

17 type of platform-based access to the second

18 level.

19 With bilevel cars we have no path of

20 travel between cars anyway. So we are stuck in

21 that car. You have to wait until you get to a

22 platform to get out like from your sleeper and

23 go into a lounge car or something like that.

24 And it would be that kind of deal where maybe

25 you have it set up where you can get access to
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1 the second level from a platform, stay there as

2 long as you wanted and another station and come

3 back down.

4 CHAIR ALTOM: Anybody else in the

5 audience that I can't see?

6 We are good. Thank you all, very much,

7 for your input.

8 Blair?

9 MR. SLAUGHTER: I'm the troublemaker from

10 Amtrak. To quickly address what Gary said, I

11 think when you are starting with new cars there

12 are a lot of things you can do. I have had

13 some ideas for a while about what we can do

14 about moving folks from lower to upper level.

15 So it is a matter of taking away the excuses.

16 Also, though, in the current regulations,

17 there is conversations about single-level cars

18 and a lot of detail and not a lot of

19 conversation about bilevel cars. And I think

20 that is driven largely because when the regs

21 were first built and there was the Amtrak

22 Superliners and gallery cars running in the

23 Midwest and that was really about it. But we

24 have seen an explosion of bilevel type cars and

25 variances.
141

1 So I think it would be worthwhile to spend

2 a time developing clarification and guidance

3 for -- more thorough guidance for bi level as

4 we move through the process.

5 MR. HART: On a technical note, Amtrak and

6 I believe Alaska Railroad has done some

7 engineering related to onboard vehicles where

8 you get to a second row -- of course for anyone

9 who has the joy of traveling cross country by

10 rail, the real experience is sitting upstairs

11 eating breakfast, watching the sunrise, all

12 that. And that is why Alaska Railroad has four

13 cars with onboard, so.

14 <<<: As a footnote to that, the original

15 California cars -- I worked on the dining car

16 specifically and you could call it an elevator,

17 you could call it a lift. In the end it was

18 just used for carts to the upper level galley,

19 but it was designed -- it was designed to

20 accommodate wheelchairs and it went nowhere

21 because illegal.

22 CHAIR ALTOM: Thank you. Any other

23 comments we want to get on the list?

24 Now, you are wondering what we are going

25 to do with the list so here is our game plan
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1 for you guys.

2 What we are going to do is ask your

3 indulgence, to give us a couple of weeks to

4 digest all of this, put it into maybe --

5 massage it and put it in the right category

6 where it should go.

7 Once we get it put into a legible format,

8 we will send it back out to all this group and

9 give you a chance to read it again. It will be

10 like me, once I get home and I read something

11 and I say "Ah, man, I meant to say this."

12 We will give you 10 business days to

13 respond back to us with additional ideas you

14 may have had and clarifications.

15 So our point of contact will be Paul.

16 Everyone has Paul's email address, I hope.

17 That is how we want to run it back and forth.

18 Paul will send it out and we will send it back

19 to Paul.

20 Once we do that, and we accommodated it,

21 we will be meeting in person incredibly quick;

22 Thanksgiving and Christmas and we are meeting

23 in January. So it will go by relatively

24 quickly so give us patience in working on

25 getting these things back and forth together.
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1 January 9 and 10. So it is going to be

2 really quickly.

3 So that is what we want to do with this

4 information. So does that sound like a

5 workable plan to you? Look at it, send it back

6 and put it into a workable document for us.

7 And then when we get back in person that

8 is when we will perhaps determine committee

9 structures, how we go from there. And that's

10 January. And then we have April when we meet

11 again next time. And we have quite a bit of a

12 break over the summer months until we meet in

13 August. Hopefully we won't lose a lot of

14 momentum. That is why I like coming in

15 January, we won't lose any momentum. The way

16 time is going by, I'm the only one aging in a

17 light speed fashion. It is September 11, not

18 August. I remember it now.

19 If that is a workable plan, that is how we

20 will proceed with this particular piece of

21 information here.

22 Next meeting we will hear about

23 presentation, we heard a lot about PRIIA stuff

24 and we will hear from those guys.

25 Paul, I would like you to talk about how
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1 we want to structure that morning time. There

2 may be some other presentations we want and how

3 we want to get those involved.

4 MR. BEATTY: Well, I guess the issue is

5 how to use the presentation to educate you as

6 it relates to the issues and then you can

7 discuss issues with some more knowledge.

8 So the degree in which individuals here

9 have information to bring to the table about an

10 issue, we would like to retain that. Right now

11 the only presentation that we heard you want to

12 talk about is the PRIIA recommendation because

13 we had an issue up there about consideration of

14 PRIIA recommendation, I think was it. And I

15 think John made a comment about one of the

16 PRIIA recommendations. I know you want to hear

17 it and discuss it.

18 There might be other things. Right now

19 what we will probably do -- unless I get other

20 direction -- once we go through the recommended

21 list and bring it up, I will be sending you an

22 email out probably giving you a rough idea of

23 the breakdown, so you know these are the

24 categories. You got the issues in front of you

25 and I will sort of solicit, "Is there anybody
145

1 who wants to seek any of these?"

2 And depending on who responds, our hope is

3 industry folks as well as providers as well as

4 persons with disabilities and the others, then

5 we have 20 people who want to speak and have

6 presentations or is it five? Do we need to

7 beat the bushes on certain issues like I wasn't

8 planning to talk, but could you talk a little

9 bit more? We may have to pull in some federal

10 partners. We are not really sure but it sort

11 of starts once we send it out to you. We are

12 going see what you can provide in way of

13 education.

14 And during that education, like I said,

15 there could be some degree of discussion about

16 a particular issue which is the education

17 focused in on.

18 That is more like seeing how you feel

19 about that, whether you guys may have a better

20 idea. And the Access Board is not going to

21 impose on you on how we take your issues,

22 evaluate them and from them develop

23 recommendations with the three areas that

24 Marsha talked about; the recommendation, the

25 rationale and I guess it was sort of the impact
146

1 information.

2 I will turn it back to Billy. Any

3 comment? Discussion?

4 MR. SLAUGHTER: As far as the PRIIA

5 information goes, I would like to see that

6 information come out with this information. My

7 worry is there is alignment, conflict, lots of

8 things there with that information. Otherwise

9 we will get to January and we will be sort of

10 starting over with that information. I think

11 that it should be however you want to include

12 it in this list so people can have their heads

13 around it for that January meeting.

14 MR. BEATTY: I have to check with FRA but

15 they sent me a PowerPoint that if that card

16 needed to be played during the two-day meeting,

17 we could play it. They also sent me the

18 document that looks at certain ADAAG provisions

19 that I was plaining to send out to the

20 committee anyway.

21 So if their document is something I can

22 merely send to you or if that is something they

23 would have to refine. We have been involved, I

24 guess, to a lesser degree with PRIIAs but we

25 are hardly experts on the recommendations. And
147

1 I would like to follow up with FRA on that

2 since they were the driving federal force on

3 that, with my limited knowledge.

4 Our goal in mind is to provide it with

5 updated issues. Is that acceptable to the

6 committee? I see the heads nodding.

7 MR. HART: The Access Board staff has had

8 some PRIIA involvement not everyone in this

9 room knows about. I have been involved in a

10 few calls, meetings, as has Gary, before you

11 left the Access Board and after in his Amtrak

12 role. We do need to check and have got to get

13 those up to date before we send those out.

14 MR. TALBOT: Thank you, Mr. Chair. I was

15 just going to add that I sit on the A DA

16 Working Group and I'm also on the policy group,

17 the accessibility policy group for PRIIA and we

18 sent the document to the Executive Committee

19 for PRIIA and that committee has that document.

20 And, like Chris said, the Access Board

21 participated in all of the work that was done

22 to develop what we developed.

23 Melissa is certainly the right person to

24 ask. That is a final document we sent it to

25 them. I know she can just send it to you. I
148

1 know she was planning on presenting that.

2 MR. NELSON: I also wanted to say I'm also

3 involved with PRIIA and I did send an email

4 from FRA almost a month ago and I asked their

5 status. Their final approval was for the 305

6 Executive Committee. But I have not yet

7 received a response from them. But I can

8 follow up with them and let you guys know as

9 soon as I know.

10 CHAIR ALTOM: Cool. We appreciate that.

11 Thanks, David.

12 <<<: Can you give an explanation of the

13 acronym PRIIA?

14 MS. MARTIN: I'm going to add something --

15 Passenger Rail Investor Infrastructure Act,

16 2008/2009.

17 I was going to briefly explain in PRIIA,

18 Section 305 of PRIIA had Amtrak convene a

19 committee to develop specifications of

20 standardization of rail cars. And there are

21 several committees and subcommittees that have

22 broken off from that and one of them -- several

23 people have mentioned the Accessibility Working

24 Group and also the Accessibility Policy Group

25 and they have developed various additional over
149

1 the regulation requirements, at least for

2 bilevel cars.

3 And I say "requirements." They are not

4 statutory or regulatory requirements. They are

5 requirements for an entity who is using the

6 specifications to build a rail car. And there

7 are different reasons why they would need to do

8 that that you all probably don't care about.

9 CHAIR ALTOM: Thank you, Linda.

10 MS. MARTIN: Sure.

11 CHAIR ALTOM: It would stand to reason

12 whatever was discovered in the accessibility

13 group for the PRIIA standards, you know, the

14 hope would be, I'm sure, on their part that it

15 would all become incorporated here. They don't

16 want to have different accessibility standards,

17 gets confusing.

18 And I have -- I can give it to you, Paul

19 or get it from Melissa.

20 But I have the final on the comments

21 crossing ADAAG to accessibility and I also have

22 the PRIIA next gen summary. I will send it to

23 you and if she says that is the one.

24 MR. BEATTY: I will send something and

25 since I'm going to go through FRA -- this is
150

1 the master document to send out to the

2 committee. I believe what they sent me is what

3 I will be sending out. The only question to

4 them is do I send out the PowerPoint for

5 purposes of answering Blair's questions or

6 whether they want to refine it for purposes of

7 sending it out along with the updated or

8 refined issues list and that is something I

9 will go through FRA with.

10 But that still means at this point for the

11 January meeting we are planning some sort of

12 presentation on the part of FRA on the PRIIA,

13 because that is something the committee has

14 indicated they want to hear about anyway.

15 MR. HART: I would just note, some of you

16 have indicated desire to present on what you

17 have available in the US or hopefully what is

18 available overseas. And that will be quite --

19 presuming that those of you who spoke to me all

20 indicated that willingness that those

21 presentations will be quite informative as to

22 what is available.

23 MS. HAMLIN: I'm wondering, though, some

24 of the presentations will be overarching and

25 important for everybody to hear. Some may be
151

1 very specific if we break out into committees

2 and looking at particular issues.

3 So I'm wondering if we should, you know,

4 for the January if we are forming committees in

5 January, maybe we should do that before we have

6 multiple presentations set up. Again, these

7 are things you know are overarching, everyone

8 is going to want to deal with. Those we should

9 have presentations with absolutely for everyone

10 to hear.

11 I'm concerned -- Paul I think you said 20

12 different presentations. I'm thinking, "Oh, my

13 God," you know.

14 MR. BEATTY: At this point, I guess, I was

15 sort of envisioning once you see the issues and

16 then "do I want to do something?" and then if I

17 got you saying, "Yes, I want to do that," how

18 many people I have and talk about the Chair, we

19 have to set up an agenda. But keeping that in

20 mind, again depending on the number and who is

21 doing it and whether this is an overarching

22 issue and not just educational.

23 Remember, everyone at the committee here

24 is going to be supporting all the final reports

25 whether it pertains to issues directly related
152

1 to your stakeholder group, but you need to be

2 aware of the big picture. But we will try and

3 keep that in mind and make some sort of

4 proposal to the full committee on how to

5 proceed. You guys can disagree with us. That

6 is your prerogative, although the Chair runs

7 the meeting.

8 CHAIR ALTOM: Thank you. Any other

9 comments?

10 MR. XUE: I just wanted to throw an idea

11 out, something that has been fairly successful

12 during the ARSAK (ph) Engineering Task Force

13 proceedings. What they have done in the past

14 is take current regulatory language, for our

15 purposes it can be both regulatory and statute

16 languages, and put them in a matrix and

17 identify where there are areas for improvement,

18 where there are areas for concern and

19 potentially populate those areas with new

20 language or new ideas to be discussed

21 throughout the group.

22 The way the regulations currently stand

23 they are decided into different modes of

24 transportation drawing on what APTA has said

25 earlier. There may be some topics applicable
153

1 to mass transit that may not be applicable to

2 high rapid or intercity rail and visa versa.

3 It is a good idea to pull out the statute

4 language and basically identifying are there

5 areas of improvement we can build upon, are

6 there areas of concern the group may have, and

7 how we populate the topics into those specific

8 areas.

9 MR. BEATTY: Would you accept -- is that

10 something that we heard, what you suggest, and

11 then staff members can discuss it to see

12 whether we can create something -- we can give

13 you a massive matrix, everything is in there

14 but it is overly complex.

15 As Marsha pointed out, we would like to

16 steer you away from their code language.

17 Sometimes the regulatory language is confused.

18 Let's see if we can develop something along the

19 lines you recommend or even give you a call and

20 discuss it further. But I don't want to make

21 any promises.

22 I'm thinking about something we created

23 and we were not going to hand out here because

24 I created it and I was getting lost. It was a

25 training tool that became so cumbersome and had
154

1 too many errors in it that it was not useful

2 for this group but it helped me get a starting

3 point of understanding the reg. And I am

4 thinking about it now and saying that doesn't

5 work for this committee.

6 Let us talk as a group, as a staff and if

7 we can develop a tool that helps you, we want

8 to do that.

9 MR. XUE: Okay.

10 CHAIR ALTOM: Other comments? Seeing

11 none. We have our homework cut out for us.

12 On the agenda we have one other point of

13 order. New business. Anyone have any new

14 business they want to discuss, they want to

15 bring up?

16 MS. HAMLIN: This is not so much new

17 business but it is a hanging question in my

18 mine. We have CART, which is way too much

19 detail but sometimes can be used as a

20 reference. The question is, are we keeping the

21 CART? Is that going to be available to

22 everybody?

23 MR. BEATTY: We usually put the CART, what

24 is called transcript on the web, available to

25 everybody. And we will be creating the summary
155

1 minutes.

2 MS. HAMLIN: Thank you.

3 MR. BEATTY: You're welcome.

4 MR. HOFF: I think yesterday, Paul, you

5 mentioned for the participants that were not

6 here, were they able to -- do we have the

7 ability to put everything up on the screen

8 available to them as they participate remotely?

9 MR. BEATTY: I don't think we have the

10 capability right now.

11 MR. HOFF: So all PowerPoints or anything

12 on the screen, if you can't get it here in

13 person you can't see what is up here? We have

14 to find a mechanism to get the information to

15 the individuals so they are aware what we are

16 discussing.

17 MR. BEATTY: What we are envisioning for

18 the upcoming meeting, in any PowerPoints used

19 we ask you provide it five days before. And

20 one of the my responsibilities, aside from 508

21 compatible, is to also send it to other

22 committee members. And as you are in the

23 process of doing your presentation, page 1,

24 page 2, so we probably have page numbers,

25 things like that. So if you are making a
156

1 presentation, those following by phone know

2 where you are.

3 MR. HOFF: Thank you.

4 MS. HAMLIN: Can I just follow up with

5 that and make sure I understood.

6 For example, if an alternate can't be

7 here -- I thought a lot of these pages, that we

8 will be posting the information would be

9 public. Is that not true? Did I get that

10 wrong?

11 MR. BEATTY: All the PowerPoints done here

12 will be placed on the web. The problem is I

13 didn't get them in sufficient time to place

14 them on the web before this meeting. So future

15 ones, when I get them, we will have them

16 available for the meeting.

17 Probably what will happen -- let me back

18 up. Clearly we will send copies out to the

19 committee members. Generally we don't send

20 anything on the web until it actually takes

21 place. I may have a PowerPoint lined up but

22 the agenda may change.

23 So once it has taken place, the final

24 version was published, then we place it on the

25 web. But for committee members, I can send you
157

1 drafts that may not be played. At that point,

2 I think Billy and I would know what the agenda

3 would be pretty nailed down. And you probably

4 told me at this point, "Yes, I'm planning to do

5 something and I will have it to you by this

6 date." And hopefully that occurs way before

7 that five-day line.

8 MS. MAZZ: One of the reasons we need

9 materials for the five-day line, we need to

10 render them accessible. We will not be

11 emailing copies of PowerPoints to everybody.

12 We will put them up on a web either on a secure

13 part of the web or on our site we will send

14 people's links, otherwise we will be crashing

15 everybody's email.

16 We don't expect everybody on the committee

17 to be an expert on maybe, for example, a

18 PowerPoint accessible. And we will discuss in

19 more detail what gets put on the web and what

20 is not put on the web. There may be decisions

21 that need to be made off line.

22 CHAIR ALTOM: Thank you.

23 Everyone is aware that there is a web page

24 devoted specifically to this group?

25 MS. MAZZ: There will be. We haven't even
158

1 got the charter up on there yet. So there are

2 a number of things we need to do.

3 CHAIR ALTOM: Anyone else have anything?

4 Looking at my agenda, we have asked for

5 any final public comments. Any last words of

6 wisdom you wanted to say? David?

7 MR. NELSON: I would like to make a public

8 comment. I would like to mention --

9 yesterday -- several people mentioned

10 information display system, PIDS. And we just

11 call it PIDS.

12 Most of you don't realize that here in

13 Washington the Union Station has been upgraded

14 big time with the software. There is more

15 information for public announcements that will

16 be rendered into language on signage and it

17 will explain to the people on the train where

18 stops will be exactly, where the stops will be

19 and everything including emergency

20 announcements.

21 We have been watching it for a while and

22 we will be upgrading five other stations to use

23 the same system. And this will be our first

24 start with PIDS. And it will be rolled out

25 across the country and it is something we are
159

1 really proud of there. It has not been easy to

2 accomplish. And there is a lot of work

3 involved with the system.

4 Where do I start with the second one?

5 We started sending out text messages to

6 our Amtrak police and we text to 911 and it

7 goes straight to our Amtrak Police Department

8 for emergencies. And we just started that. We

9 just rolled that out. So I thought it would be

10 worthwhile to share with you, to let you know

11 what we're doing and let you know there is

12 other work going on that will be announced

13 later.

14 CHAIR ALTOM: Awesome. Thanks, David.

15 Terry, I was thinking you would probably have a

16 follow up for that.

17 MS. PACHECO: Can I ask -- I think the

18 PIDS at Union Station is wonderful for most of

19 us.

20 Is it going to become accessible to people

21 who are blind or people who can't see it?

22 MR. NELSON: It is.

23 MS. PACHECO: It is audible?

24 MR. NELSON: From my understanding it is

25 audible and visual.
160

1 MS. PACHECO: I would like to know how you

2 access the audible side of it. The signs

3 itself --

4 MR. NELSON: It is an automatic

5 announcement.

6 MS. PACHECO: I'm talking about the

7 signage itself. If I walked up to a thing that

8 is telling me what time the next 12 trains are

9 going out, has great display, but if I can't

10 see that -- I'm asking is that going to be

11 accessible to someone who can't actually read

12 it?

13 MR. NELSON: Honestly I can't answer that.

14 I was not part -- that was not part of my scope

15 of work. So I will bring it to Amtrak's

16 attention.

17 MS. BUNALES: I do have people on the

18 teleconference if you still want public comment

19 and I put their names -- Frank Maldari, MTA; Ed

20 Steinfeld, Dennis Cannon --

21 MS. MAZZ: Rose, can you use a mic.

22 MS. BUNALES: I have Frank Maldari, MTA,

23 Long Island; Ed Steinfeld, IDeA Center; Dennis

24 Cannon, NDRN; Melissa Shurland, FRA; and also

25 from FRA Linda Martin and Calvin Gibson. If
161

1 any of you would like to comment.

2 Operator, would -- how should they

3 indicate they would like to speak?

4 OPERATOR: If you want them opened one at

5 a time, it would be star 1.

6 MS. BUNALES: Thank you. Star 1.

7 CHAIR ALTOM: Any of our friends on the

8 phone want to make an comment?

9 OPERATOR: At this time no one has cued

10 up.

11 CHAIR ALTOM: Thank you.

12 MR. SLAUGHTER: Just when you thought it

13 was safe. As we move through the process, and

14 this may be down the path a bit, and we are

15 starting to see things that effect the physical

16 dimensions within cars, one of the early things

17 I would like to do is you sort of take the wish

18 list and you start plugging that in to see what

19 that does to the vehicle because it helps you

20 get your head around it, graphically and think

21 about what the impacts are to the overall

22 railroad operation.

23 So what are the plans on how we do that?

24 Obviously from Amtrak's perspective, I will go

25 back and do those things on our side so I can
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1 come back and comment intelligently, hopefully,

2 and go from there.

3 CHAIR ALTOM: I think our hope is as we

4 compile this information and get it back that

5 you can use it at your discretion of how you

6 plug it into your thing.

7 You have a follow-up, Paul?

8 MR. BEATTY: Like other advisory

9 committees, when an issue has been raised and

10 it has been discussed someone puts it to, say,

11 to educate other people in the group and be

12 allowed to bring additional information.

13 Part of sharing information and including

14 it in the final report are all things to make

15 your case as well as educate and try to

16 convince other committee members to develop

17 that consensus we seek.

18 Everyone wants a swimming pool on the rail

19 car. Well, if you have a concern about that,

20 basically, you can probably explain the reason

21 why and we completely understand. But if I'm a

22 little slow you might have to provide more

23 information.

24 MR. SLAUGHTER: Thanks. That is what I

25 had envisioned. As I said before, it is
163

1 critical to give things the proper

2 consideration.

3 I assume the other authorities and the car

4 builders that might be concerned would take

5 information back and plug that in some sort of

6 drawing or something dimensionally to

7 understand what the impact is and bring that

8 back. I will certainly do it from the Amtrak

9 side.

10 MS. BUNALES: Mr. Chairman, Melissa

11 Shurland has raised her hand.

12 CHAIR ALTOM: Melissa, go ahead, please.

13 MS. SHURLAND: Good afternoon everyone and

14 thank you for the opportunity to speak. I was

15 listening to the discussion about having the

16 committee Chair, Paul Beatty peer presentation.

17 And I would want Paul to get that out to

18 committee before the January meeting.

19 I can send it out now but I wanted to

20 include some visuals to address a comment that

21 was made regarding the accessible seats in the

22 PRIIA bilevel car.

23 Stan Hunter is the lead project manager

24 for that procurement. So I will work with him

25 to get visual rendering of the layout. So
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1 hopefully I can definitely get it out before

2 the end of December. Thank you.

3 CHAIR ALTOM: Thank you.

4 MS. SHURLAND: You're welcome.

5 CHAIR ALTOM: I think Frank Maldari had

6 difficulty chiming in. He said he emailed a

7 comment. Was that received? I think he

8 emailed it to you. I did not receive it.

9 MS. BUNALES: I do not see it.

10 CHAIR ALTOM: Can you try to open the

11 line to him again.

12 MS. BUNALES: Operator, if Maldari is

13 still on the line can you open his line.

14 MR. MALDARI: Yeah. The one comment I was

15 trying to make, and it was along the lines of

16 what Mr. Slaughter was saying, was that

17 commuter rail and light rail, especially

18 commuter rail, is about moving large quantities

19 of people safely and efficiently. And you may

20 not realize that was subject to weight size and

21 operating constraints that limit the size of

22 vehicles and the number of vehicles that can be

23 operated during rush hour. Therefore we need

24 to keep in mind these limitations when we

25 consider changes in the guidelines and interior
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1 space associated with accessibility. That is

2 basically along the lines of what has been said

3 by other people but just to reinforce it. I

4 just want to make sure that was clear. Thank

5 you.

6 CHAIR ALTOM: You're welcome and thank

7 you. Other comments? We have one in the back.

8 Marsha, will you give me a hand.

9 MR. MILLIS: Thank you. My name is Glenn

10 Millis and I am from Metro. I guess I should

11 say sorry for the Red Line, yesterday and

12 today. We are working hard with the

13 rehabilitation program. Believe it or not, the

14 Red Line is getting better. Didn't feel like

15 that this morning.

16 Metro has been working for years in our

17 new 7000 car series. And we have been working

18 all the time with our disability community.

19 They like riding Metro. A million with

20 paratransit, used our bus and rail system last

21 year and we listened to them. We listened to

22 them and built 18 recommendations they made

23 into what they thought was an already

24 accessible rail car. I think what we have, and

25 you will see shortly when they start arriving,
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1 is probably one of the most accessible cars, at

2 least from our perspective from what we have

3 seen, subway cars in the country.

4 There are a couple of things in the cars I

5 did not hear about today that was mentioned to

6 us by the disability community and if it

7 benefits this group we would be willing to

8 share a presentation on the car and what is in

9 it and what people told us and why when the

10 cars come out, we would be glad to demonstrate

11 one to you.

12 As your host, I'm saying two things. We

13 would like to help the committee as we go

14 through this and we will try to be better on

15 the Red Line.

16 CHAIR ALTOM: January 9 and 10 is when we

17 are coming back.

18 MR. HART: And we look forward to all of

19 the elevators working as well.

20 <<<: And the escalators.

21 CHAIR ALTOM: Thank you, very much,

22 though, I appreciate that.

23 Any other comments?

24 MS. BUNALES: New members you should turn

25 in your documentation, your lobbyist
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1 certification statements, et cetera, those type

2 of things. Anything else?

3 MR. HART: We can't hear you.

4 CHAIR ALTOM: Okay. Any other good for

5 the cause? I think we have -- I can't believe

6 it, I got us under our time. We were to

7 adjourn at 3:00 so I think for the sake of it

8 let's just all sit here until 3:00.

9 Okay. I certainly appreciate the fact

10 that I was chosen to be the Chair of this

11 group. I appreciate it. A tremendous honor to

12 work with each and everyone of you. I learned

13 a great deal so thank you all very much and I

14 will officially adjourn this meeting and see

15 you all in January. So thank you, very much.

16 Have safe travels home.

17 MR. PEREZ: Great job.

18 (Chorus of Applause)

19 (Whereupon, at 2:52 p.m. the meeting was

20 adjourned.)

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