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### <{ 

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**~** 

# ii: 

# 0 UNITED STATES OF AMERICA DEPARTMENT OF TRANSPORTATION OFFICE OF HEARINGS

IN THE MATTER OF: PACIFIC INTERNATIONAL SKYDIVING CENTER Respondent Tuesday, May 17, 2016 FDMS No. FAA-2014-1116 1

The teleconference convened, pursuant to notice, at 3:00 p.m. BEFORE: THE HONORABLE DOUGLAS RAWALD, U.S. Administrative Law Judge

(202) 234-4433 

# RECEIVED JUN 01

### 2016 

### HEARING DOCKET

NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERSANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433APPEARANCES: On Behalf of the Complainant: DON BOBERTZ, ESQ. of: Federal Aviation Administration Office of the Chief Counsel 15000 Aviation Boulevard Lawndale, California 90261

310-725-3454 don.bobertz@faa.gov

On Behalf of the Respondent: ROBERT FELDMAN, ESQ. of: Law Office of Robert L Feldman 8900 S.W. 107th Avenue Suite 203 Miami, Florida 33176 305-598-4841 feldmans48@hotmail.com Also Present: KEVIN SIKES, Legal Intern, Department of Transportation Office of Hearings

NEAL R. GROSS 2

(202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERSAND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-44333
1 

### P-R-0-C-E-E-D-I-N-G-S 2 

### (3:02p.m.) J"lJDGE .

### R.A,WALD: 4 involving Pacific International Skydiving Center, 5 a pre-hearing conference here on May 17th, 2016 6 at 3:00 p.m. Eastern Standard Time. 7 We're joined by Mr. Don Bobertz from 8 the Federal Aviation Administration, representing 9 

### the Government. Mr. Robert Feldman is 10 respondent's counsel. And also our court 11 reporter is here as well. With me in the office 12 is a legal intern, Mr. Kevin Sikes. 13 Just so you folks know, if I, I will 14. prompt you before asking you a question, so you 15 know it's time to speak, just so we can make sure 16 the phone keeps open. 17 And if I want to interrupt you at some 18 time, and I can't get your attention, I'll go 19 

### ahead and push a button on the phone. So if you 20 hear an annoying ring it's because I'm trying to 21 say, hey, listen, let me go ahead and speak at 22 the moment.

(202) 234-4433 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS ANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLANDAVE., NW. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-44334 1 

### So, to summarize where we are -- 2 

### MR. BOBERTZ: Yes. :3

............ __ _ __,JlfQG.E
.. _RAWALJ:l:
...... Qkq,}'. 

### Just. . to 4 summarize where we are, the first pre-hearing 5 

### conference in this matter. As I understand it 6 both parties have told me to date that they do 7 

### not have a problem with the venue. So the venue 8 will, for this hearing, be Honolulu, Hawaii. 9 

### Both parties have agreed that 10 

### discovery is complete. And all parties agree 11 

### that there are no motions pending for me to rule 12 upon at this time. Mr. Bobertz, do you agree 13 

### with that? 14 

### MR. BOBERTZ: I 

### do. 15 

### JUDGE RAWALD: Okay. 16 

### MR. FELDMAN: And I also agree with 17 it, Your Honor. 18 

### JUDGE RAWALD: Wonderful. Now if we 19 could turn to scheduling issues, and just so I 20 

### can get my head around that. You folks have 21 proposed having motions due 60 days prior to the 2 2 hearing, and then a telephonic hearing 30 days

(202) 234.4433 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS ANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLANDAVE., NW. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234·44335 

### 1 before the hearing. 2 I do want to build some time in there

.. 3. 

### 4 motion filing would you want before you have to 5 file a response, Mr. Bobertz? 6 

### MR. BOBERTZ: Probably 15 days. 7 

### JUDGE RAWALD: Okay. Mr. Feldman, is 8 15 days sufficient for you as well if you receive 9 a motion, to respond to that motion? 10 

### MR. FELDMAN: Yes, I think so. 11 

### JUDGE RAWALD: Okay. And if

-- 12 MR. FELDMAN: Providing that, you 13 know, I'm not in court. I'm a sole practitioner. 14 

### So, I don't have a huge support staff. So, you 15 know, if I'm in court or traveling for some 16 reason, I may need an extension on that. 17 

### JUDGE RAWALD: Okay. So, and I would 18 view favorably any request for that, as long as 19 you talk to Mr. Bobertz first, and he agrees with 20 that. But I would certainly have no problem with 21 that. 22

(202) 234·4433 

### MR. FELDMAN: Yes, of course.

NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERSANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLANDAVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005·3701 (202) 234·44336
1 

### JUDGE RAWALD: Mr. Bobertz, do you 2 have a comment? 3 

### MIL BOBEB.TZ: No. That Is, 

### rwould.n It 

### 4 have an issue with making it longer too, ahead of 5 time to account for that possibility as well, you 6 know. Either way is fine. 7 

### JUDGE RAWALD : Let's just look for, 8 I'll, let's look for 30 days then, just to give 9 you folks more time. Now, Mr. Bobertz, would you 10 want to have the ability to reply to any 11 

### response? Or do you think one brief per side 12 would be sufficient on any motion? 13 

### MR. BOBERTZ: I think one brief per 14 side is sufficient. 15 

### JUDGE RAWALD: Okay. And Mr. Feldman, 16 how about yourself? 17 

### MR. FELDMAN: Yes, I think so. 18 

### JUDGE RAWALD: Wonderful. And then 19 we'll have to have a telephonic hearing. Now, I 20 would prefer to issue orders on motions before we 21 actually show up at a hearing. Is that, would 22 you guys agree that's probably more appropriate?

(202) 234·4433 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERSANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLANDAVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-44337 

### 1 Mr. Bobertz? 2 MR. BOBERTZ: Yes, I would agree.

.3. 

### JUDGERAWALD: . Mr. Feldman.

4 

### MR. FELDMAN: I agree also. 5 

### JUDGE RAWALD: Okay. So I'm going to 6 try to build in some time as well to make sure 7 that my orders are issued before you have the 8 hearing, so you folks can know where the lay of 9 the land is there. 10 

### MR. FELDMAN: Thank you. 11 

### JUDGE RAWALD: I may push the date 12 back a little bit further before the hearing, 13 just to make, accommodate all these extra things 14 

### I want to make sure we have. I'd like to issue 15 my order probably 30 days before the hearing. 16 

### MR. FELDMAN: Okay. Well, Mr. Bobertz 17 and I have been working well on resolving dates, 18 

### and finding mutually convenient dates. And of 19 course, it depends on Your Honor's schedule too. 20 But for say, the back and forth of this picking a 21 date, if you indicate how far back you want to 22 push it, then Mr. Bobertz and I can give you some

(202) 234A433 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS ANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLANDAVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-44338 

### 1 possible dates. 2 

### JUDGE RAWALD: Okay. That's helpful. Let me just t;ry out; t;heE:e though. Let's. Siiy, how 4 about if I give the order 15 days before the 5 hearing. So we'll have the telephonic hearing 30 6 days before the hearing. Responses would be due 7 

### 45 days. So, I'm talking to myself here while 8 I'm looking at these dates, fellows. I'm sorry. 9 

### So, okay. So what I plan on doing is 10 having motions due 75 days before the hearing. 11 The response to the motion is due 45 days before 12 the hearing. A telephonic hearing 30 days before 13 the hearing. And then my order will be issued 15 14 

### days after that telephonic hearing. So 15 days 15 before the hearing. 16 And I'm putting together a report that 17 

### you folks will have, summarizing all this. But 18 just the track on, and looking at this at the 19 moment. Mr. Bobertz, does that work for you? 20 

### 21 22

(202) 234-4433 

### MR. BOBERTZ: That sounds great. JUDGE RAWALD: Okay. And Mr. Feldman? MR. FELDMAN: Yes, it's fine.

NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERSANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLANDAVE., NW. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-44339 

### 1 JUDGE RAWALD: Now, as far as 2 exchanging witnesses and evidence lists, how far :3 

### in advance would yo11 want to do that, Mr. 4 Bobertz? 5 

### MR. BOBERTZ: Maybe 30 days. 6 

### JUDGE RAWALD: Okay. Understanding 7 you've already completed all discovery. So there 8 shouldn't be anything new on there. But just 9 something so everyone knows who you're calling. 10 And Mr. Feldman, would you be comfortable sharing 11 your witness list and evidence 30 days before the 12 hearing? 13 

### MR. FELDMAN: Yes, absolutely. And we 14 may need to get some hearing subpoenas out also. 15 So I'll apply to them through your office, I 16 guess, Your Honor. 17 

### JUDGE RAWALD : Okay. And so, when 18 

### would you want to issue those? Because I 19 obviously want to give individuals sufficient 20 

### time to get there. Are these folks that are 21 local to Honolulu? Or folks that would 22

(202) 234-4433 

### MR. FELDMAN: Yes. Most of them are

NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLANDAVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-443310
1 

### local to Honolulu. I do, anyhow, you know, we 2 can't give them before we know the hearing dates. 3 So, you know, I mean, I can get them ont

**~o** 

### gay:;; 4 

### before the hearing. Though I'll probably get 5 

### them out sooner. 6 

### JUDGE RAWALD: Okay. I need subpoena 7 

### requests received by me 30 days before the 8 

### hearing. 9 

### MR. FELDMAN: Okay, yes. 10 

### JUDGE RAWALD: Okay. And that

-- 11 

### MR. FELDMAN: At least 30 days. 12 JUDGE RAWALD:

-- immediately. Mr. 13 Bobertz, I'm sorry. 14 

### MR. FELDMAN: That was Robert Feldman. 15 I said, at least 30 days before the hearing. 16 

### JUDGE RAWALD: Okay. And, Mr. 17 Bobertz, does that work for you? 18 

### MR. BOBERTZ: Yes. 19 

### JUDGE RAWALD: Okay. And what I 20 prefer is to have my, the evidence supplied to me 21 by CD, rather than you folks sending me a big 22 stack of documents, if that's possible.

(202) 234-4433 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 

### Does

(202) 234-443311
1 

### that work for both parties? 2 

### MR. FELDMAN: Works for me. 3 

### JUDGE AAWALP: Mr. Bobe:rt<:? 4 

### MR. BOBERTZ: Yes. That should work 5 

### fine. That sounds great. 6 

### JUDGE RAWALD: Okay. So how long 7 

### before the hearing could you both provide me a 8 

### complete copy of their intended exhibits. Mr. 9 

### Bobertz? 10 

### MR. BOBERTZ: I'm thinking 30 

### days. 11 

### But if you want more time, that's probably not an 12 

### issue either. 13 

### JUDGE RAWALD: No, 30 

### days is 14 

### sufficient. And, Mr. Feldman, as for you, 30 15 

### days is fine? 16 

### MR. FELDMAN: Yes, 30 

### days works for 17 

### me. 18 

### JUDGE RAWALD : Okay. And that way, 19 that will give me a chance to look at the 20 exhibits and be familiar with them before we 21 

### actually have the hearing. Okay. Now 22

(202) 234-4433 

### (Simultaneous speaking.)

NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERSANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433

### 12

1 

### MR. FELDMAN: Do you want the exhibits 2 pre-marked with exhibit numbers or letters, to

4 

### JUDGE RAWALD : Right. I'd prefer to 5 

### do that. And then if there's any that I don't 6 admit for some reason, then we will just keep 7 that noted that that wasn't admitted. So that

-- 8 

### MR. FELDMAN: Yes. That's okay. So, 9 

### we'll pre-mark them. Do you prefer numbers or 10 letters? 11 JUDGE RAWALD : Well, what makes it 12 easier actually is if one party does letters and 13 one party does numbers. So my preference I guess 14 would be for the Government to use numbers, and 15 the respondent to use letters, if that works for 16 you folks. 17 

### MR. FELDMAN: Okay. Or would it be 18 easier if we just labeled them AA1 through 19 whatever, and R1 through whatever? That way we'd 20 know what the exhibits are. We don't have to 21 remember an additional criterion. 22

(202) 234-4433 

### JUDGE RAWALD: Yes, sir.

NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERSANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 

### No, that

(202) 234-443313
1 

### would be fine. If you wanted to do C1 for 2 complainant and R1 for respondent, that works

4 

### MR. FELDMAN: Okay. Don, are you okay 5 with that? 6 

### MR. BOBERTZ: Yes, that's fine. Yes. 7 

### Sometimes we do A1 for administrator. Sometimes 8 we do C1 for complainant. 9 

### JUDGE RAWALD: Whichever one you 10 

### decide, as long as you are consistent. It 

### 11 doesn't, I really don't have a preference either 12 way. So I just want folks to be consistent, and 13 us to know what we're talking about when we get 14 to the point where we're on the record. 15 

### MR. BOBERTZ: Sure. Okay. 16 

### JUDGE RAWALD: Okay. And then, as far 17 as the, after the hearing's over, do the parties 18 have a preference as far as post hearing briefs? 19 Mr. Bobertz? 20 

### MR. BOBERTZ: Sir, is that what you 21 plan to do, is do post hearing briefs, and then 22 issue a decision later, versus a decision at the

(202) 234-4433 NEALR. GROSS COURT REPORTERS ANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLANDAVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-443314 1 hearing? 2 JUDGE RAWALD: So to be clear, I don't 3... __ have. 

### _a pr_e.ference. 4 parties the opportunity to submit post hearing 5 briefs. You're not going to be obligated. 6 If you change your mind later on and 7 say, you know what, this trial turned out to be a 8 lot more complicated. I really want to go ahead 9 and submit a post hearing brief. I would 10 certainly entertain that discussion later. 11 I just thought it would be helpful now 12 to kind of establish whether folks on either 13 side, yourself and Mr. Feldman, want the 14 opportunity to write a post hearing brief. 15 Because that will help us understand what we want 16 to do here. 17 MR. FELDMAN: Yes. At this point I 18 don't see a need for it. But as Your Honor said, 19 it depends on how the trial develops. so, 20 reserving the right to request them. And Mr. 21 Bobertz the same thing. You know, at this point 22 let's not include them.

(202) 234-4433 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLANDAVE., NW. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-443315
1 JUDGE RAWALD: Okay. So we' 11 keep 2 open the possibility. But at this point there's

.... 3 ___no need for it _in_ your..mind, Mr. _Feldman. _Mr. 4 Bobertz, do you agree that there's probably no 5 need for a post hearing brief either, in your 6 mind? 7 MR. BOBERTZ: I would agree. But I 8 think it's basically, I '11 reserve the right to 9 do so if we change our mind at the hearing, or 10 shortly after. 11 JUDGE RAWALD: Yes. Just so you 12 understand, my real belief on post hearing briefs 13 is, they're most useful for two areas. If 14 there's some complicated area of law that we 15 really need to discuss. Or, if there's something 16 like in the Administrator's context, where you 17 feel you want to explain the totality better. 18 And that might be a better chance to do that. 19 Those are two areas where I think the 20 post hearing brief can be most useful to me 21 22 sitting as the Administrative Law Judge. But we'll discuss it at the hearing.

(202) 234-4433 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERSANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLANDAVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 And at this

(202) 234-443316 

### 1 point we'll plan on not having any post hearing 2 briefs. But if we think of a need, then we'll go 3
__ ___ 

### ahead and do that. 4 I 

### do want to issue a decision in 5 

### writing. But if there are no post hearing briefs 6 I 

### will issue it sooner. And maybe even at the 7 

### time of the hearing if I 

### can possibly pull that 8 

### off. 9 

### Because I 

### think it's, you know, your 10 

### clients on both sides have been waiting a very 11 

### long time for resolution of these issues. And I 12 

### certainly don't want to delay things. 13 

### MR. BOBERTZ: Sure. 14 

### MR. FELDMAN: My client doesn't mind 15 

### the delay one bit, Your Honor. 16 

### JUDGE RAWALD: I 

### understand. If 

### we 17 could turn now to talking about some substantive 18 

### matters. Mr. Bobertz, I want to put you on the 19 spot here, and understand a little more about 20 what's being alleged. 21 

### Now, can you tell me how many 22 violations of the parachuting regulation are you

(202) 234-4433 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., NW. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433

### 17 1 looking at here? I'm referring to 14 CFR 105.17. 2 

### MR. BOBERTZ: Right. So, there was 3

-- __ 

### December. .8th,_ January _S.th,
_Ma:cch
_.22nd, 

### March

4 

### 25th. There were four different dates. And I 

### 5 don't recall offhand how many violations per day. 6 But I think we counted it as essentially four 7 

### violations, is how we calculated the civil 8 penalty. 9 

### JUDGE RAWALD: Okay. Because that's 10 what I was confused. Because I saw four 11 

### different dates. But the first two dates, 12 December 18th and January 5th, there are one 13 flight alleged. But on the next two dates, March 14 22nd and March 24th there were three flights 15 alleged. 16 

### And I wasn't certain if you were 17 alleging that each independent flight on those 18 last two days were a violation, or just those 19 dates themselves constituted a violation. 20 21 22 

### MR. BOBERTZ: I think there were violations on those, each flight. But I think for the

(202) 234-4433 

### I apologize. I'11 have to double

NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS ANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLANDAVE., NW. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202)234-443318 

### 1 check my civil penalty calculations. 2 But I think for the purposes of

....3 ...

### calculating the.penalties,
.. it was .fig_uring on,. 4 even though there are multiple flights on those 5 days, that those were figured on the, one date. 6 But I apologize. I'll have to double check. 7 

### JUDGE RAWALD: Okay. So I won't hold 8 you to this. But you think it was four total on 9 that, is what you're looking at, as far as the 10 violations go. 11 

### MR. BOBERTZ: Right. 12 JUDGE RAWALD: And then, as far as the 13 regulations goes, it looks like you were wholly 14 alleging the, actually going into or through a 15 cloud, the subparagraph A there, and not the 16 stuff in subparagraph B, which requires the 17 distance from the cloud cover. Is that right? 18 

### MR. BOBERTZ: That's correct. 19 

### JUDGE RAWALD: Okay. So your intent 20 then at the hearing is to actually prove that 21 there are folks that left this plane, and dropped 22 through clouds at that, on those days?

(202) 234-4433 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS ANOTRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-44331 2

--- -- - - -- -- ... _3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 19 

### MR. BOBERTZ: That's correct. JUDGE RAWALD: Okay. And when you're

witnesses and expert witnesses? Or only fact witnesses? Or only experts? MR. BOBERTZ: Both. JUDGE RAWALD: Okay. Are you able to kind of give me a thumbnail sketch of what you're going to prove? Other than people who actually witnessed the events, or people that were actually parachuting? What's going to happen here? MR. BOBERTZ: Mostly somebody that actually witnessed and videotaped the events. JUDGE RAWALD: Okay. And was that someone actually parachuting with them, or somebody from the ground? MR. BOBERTZ: Somebody from the ground. But, and then there's also helmet cam footage from some of the jumpers. JUDGE RAWALD: Understood. And for violation number two here, with the dangerous

(202) 234-4433 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERSAND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., NW. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005·3701 (202) 234·443320 

### 1 operation of an aircraft. Is that based on the 2 same facts and circumstances? If, you know, if I

- - --- _3
__ 

### __find a_tfirst that they_committe_d the_ yi_olat_ion
__ 4 

### of the parachuting through the clouds, then they 5 

### in fact violated number two as well? 6 

### MR. BOBERTZ: Correct. It's a 7 residual 91-13. 8 

### JUDGE RAWALD: Okay. And so, when you 9 look at residual, are you assessing additional 10 penalties based upon that? 11 

### MR. BOBERTZ: Well 12 

### JUDGE RAWALD: Or is that not -- 13 MR. BOBERTZ: No. 14 

### JUDGE RAWALD : Okay. So to get to 15 this $55,000 dollar number then, you must have 16 viewed there being more than simply the four 17 

### violations. Is that right? 18 

### MR. BOBERTZ: Before the end of this 19 call I 

### should be able to give you that 20 

### information. I'll look that up for you. 21 

### JUDGE RAWALD: Okay. Because it was, 22 what I'm looking at here is the maximum violation

(202) 234-4433 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS ANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., NW. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433

### 21 1 seems to be $11,000 for each, maximum penalty 2 $11,000 for each violation. So I want to kind of

4 

### So, I'll come back to you, Mr. Bobertz, on that. 5 

### MR. BOBERTZ: Okay. 6 

### JUDGE RAWALD: Let me turn to Mr. 7 

### Feldman. So, anything you heard from Mr. Bobertz 8 

### new to you, or something you were not aware of, 9 

### sir? 10 MR. FELDMAN: No, nothing I was 11 unaware of. Of course, we disagree with it. We 12 disagree with the, first that the jumps through 13 clouds occurred. Second that the company that is 14 hiring the personnel as independent contractors 15 to perform the parachute jump services, and 16 piloting services, had any control over it. 17 

### And legally we're going to contend 18 that if there's an independent contractor, except 19 for common carriers, and skydiving isn't common 20 carrier, there's no responsibility on the part of 21 the operator for what the independent contractors 22 do. That's the crux of my case.

(202) 234-4433 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERSANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLANDAVE., NW. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-443322
1 

### And the investigation is another 2 

### aspect. The reliability of the Administrator's

4 

### against my client. And the integrity of the 5 evidence itself are also going to be subject to 6 

### question. 7 

### JUDGE RAWALD: Okay. So if I hear you 8 

### correctly, Mr. Feldman, you're first of all going 9 

### to at least put on evidence, or challenge the 10 

### Government's evidence of the actual falling 11 

### through the cloud. 12 You're going to question the 13 reliability investigation by challenging the 14 credibility of their key witness on that issue. 15 

### And then also, you're going to raise the 16 affirmative defense that if they actually did 17 fall through a cloud, the folks doing it were 18 independent contractors, and were not actually 19 

### your client. Is that correct? 20 

### 21 Honor. 22

(202) 234-4433 

### MR. FELDMAN: That's correct, Your

JUDGE RAWALD: Okay. And so, if you

NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS ANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLANDAVE., NW. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-443323 

### 1 show the independent contractor, if you can give 2 me a little more information about how are you

._3_ .. ____going
__ to addr.ess thaL_issue? 4 MR. FELDMAN: 

### Well, we've already 5 provided to Mr. Bobertz copies of the 1099. 6 There will also be testimony of the company as to 7 how they pay the persons performing services for 8 them. 9 There will be other testimony showing 10 that it's industry standard to employ independent 11 contractors, or contract with independent 12 contractors for these services in the parachuting 13 industry. 14 And that there's no way that anyone on 15 the ground can control what somebody does in the 16 aircraft. And we're not, I mean, we're not using 17 drones here for skydiving, where the door would 18 open and close. And it would automatically land 19 if the company didn't like it. So, you know, 20 there really is no control over it. 21 And the independent contractor status, 22 the 1099s are showing that the personnel used by

(202) 234-4433 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERSANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433

### 24 1 the company are given independent contractor 2 

### status. It's never been challenged by the IRS, 3 .. _________

### hecaus_e it_rs _industr_y_standard.___I _think _it
__has 4 

### in other job zones. 5 

### But they're individually licensed. 6 

### They're individually qualified by a third party 7 

### entity. So they're required to live up to the 8 

### requirements of their certificates, be it airman 9 

### certificates or a 

### parachute instructor 10 certificates. 11 

### JUDGE RAWALD: Okay. Just to give you 12 

### each a heads up on the matter. It seems to me 13 that the independent contractor issue is a 14 

### legally complex issue. It's developed certainly 15 a lot of case law from the FAA Administrator on 16 the different independent contractors. 17 

### So, if there was an area that would 18 lend itself to post hearing briefs, as we're 19 looking ahead at things, that would probably be 20 an area that would be helpful, if we were to 21 

### decide to do that down the road. 22 there is some complex law there.

(202) 234-4433 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS ANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLANDAVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 

### So, because

(202) 234-44331 2

--- --- ---------- . _3_

- 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 25 Okay. And as I'm listening to both of you folks talk, it's definitely clear to me that

___ there'_s
___go_ing
__ t_o__.be_ a _number _o£. witnes_s_es_ here
... It's going to be at least a somewhat lengthy trial. Now, Mr. Bobertz, how many days do you think this will actually take? MR. BOBERTZ: I'm just pausing because I 'm thinking. I wouldn't think it would take more than two days. But I might allow three, schedule for three. JUDGE RAWALD: Okay. And Mr. Feldman? MR. FELDMAN: I think three days is the minimum. I certainly can do our best to get it done. It depends on how cooperative the Administrator's witnesses are answering my questions. But I think three days. I don't think two is realistic. JUDGE RAWALD : Okay. Because of the number of witnesses, and the complexity of the evidence you're going to put on? MR. FELDMAN: Yes. JUDGE RAWALD: Okay. Understood. So

(202) 234-4433 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERSANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLANDAVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-443326 1 I will always try to plan to err on the side of 2 longer, because I don't want the case to be

..:3 ...--·---· .a:r:ti.fic.ially..affe.c.ted_by __a_timeline_thaLT_think ____ 4 is unnecessary. 5 So I will try to, and as we're looking 6 at the, certainly the schedule in this case, make 7 it so we have enough time to be more than 8 sufficient to take up the issue. 9 So now, as far as, have you folks 10 discussed having any stipulations about testimony 11 or facts at all? Or is there anything that we 12 can resolve by doing that, as opposed to having 13 witnesses on the issue? 14 MR. FELDMAN: We haven't discussed 15 that, Your Honor. I don't know if there's any 16 area that that can be accomplished. But, you 17 know, we're contesting the videos that the 18 Administrator provided to us. So, you know, I 19 think it's critical to examine those videos, and 20 get testimony as to how they were produced. 21 And also, there will be expert 22 testimony as to the inaccuracies of photographing

(202) 234-4433 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS ANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-443327

1 from the ground, actions taking place in the sky, 2 which is why, which was why passes at air shows

**~ ------~---**  --3

**--~ ~~~** **~--wo:r:ked-so-wel.L.-But-so, ~~** 'fOU-.kno:w_,
__there_
__ wi_ll_he,
_ 4 I don't think there's anything that we can agree 5 on at this time to stipulate to. 6 JUDGE RAWALD: Okay. And I'm not 7 asking you folks to submit today. But, Mr. 8 Bobertz, you were going to say something? 9 MR. BOBERTZ: Yes. The only thing I'd 10 think that would be a potential to stipulate to 11 at the moment, would be the flights that

-- But I 12 don't think there's any question that the flights 13 were operated, however you want to say it, out of 14 Pacific International Skydiving. 15 You know, the pilot was, I understand 16 the allegations regarding independent contractor. 17 And that, you know, the hesitation to stipulate 18 that it was actually Pacific International 19 operating the flights. 20 But, you know, I don't think there's 21 any question that those flights were operated. 22 And they were operated at least

(202) 234-4433 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERSAND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 by the

(202) 234-4433

### 28 1 independent contractor to Pacific International 2 Skydiving.

---- ---- -------- -----3--

- -- - - --- --- - __xou know_,_ _if _we____could ___g_eL_t_o____ that_ 4 point, then we don't have to put it in, we would 5 save time in the evidence of putting on the 0 

### 6 evidence of the flights, that they were Pacific 7 International Skydiving. 8 

### JUDGE RAWALD: Okay. 9 

### MR. FELDMAN: Your Honor, the problem 10 we have with that is the accuracy of the video, 11 and the ability of creative editing to accomplish 12 a purpose. 13 I don't want to go into the evidence 14 

### at this point. But Mr. Bobertz is aware of it. 15 And some of it included death threats to 16 employees of my client, the contractors of my 17 client. 18 

### And there's a concern as to whether 19 

### the videos themselves are accurate. And so, 20 that's why we can't stipulate that these flights, 21 or using these flights in quotation marks, 22 actually occurred.

(202) 234-4433 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERSAND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-443329 

### 1 Because these flights may be a 

### 2 combination of flights. And again, we don't know

--- ---------- ----____3
__ - --______a_t__thi_s___p_o_int_________B_u_t_,____y_ou _ kno_w_,_____ we ___e__e_r_:_t_a_i_n_lJ[ ____

dQn_

**~**_ t________ 4 

### know that these videos are accurate. 5 JUDGE 

### RAWALD: Okay. Well, let's do 6 

### this then. Mr. Bobertz, if you think there's an 7 

### area that you could possibly have a stipulation 8 

### to, if you could write that up and send that to 9 

### Mr. Feldman, see if he'd be agreeable to 10 

### stipulating to that. And possibly, you could 11 pass a draft back and forth over the coming days. 12 You know, we have several months for 13 

### the hearing to take place at least. That would 14 help eliminate some possible witnesses on each 15 

### end. But if you can't come to an area, that's 16 fine. 17 I just want you folks, if you can, to 18 think of ways where you could help us narrow what 19 

### we're looking at. So, the really important 20 issues come up, and the things that aren't 21 important we can dispense with, and really focus 22 on what's important here.

(202) 234-4433 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS ANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLANDAVE., NW. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-443330
1 So, is there anything either side 2 wants me to take judicial notice of? Mr.

_ ___________________ 3

_____B.ober.tz.?._____________
_ ____ _ 4 MR. BOBERTZ: Nothing I can think of 5 at the moment, Your Honor. 6 JUDGE RAWALD: Okay. Mr. Feldman. 7 MR. FELDMAN: Nothing at this time, 8 Your Honor. 9 JUDGE RAWALD: Okay. And obviously 10 you can raise any later. I just wanted to see 11 about that now. Okay. And does either side have 12 any idea about any motions that they want to 13 raise at this point? 14 MR. BOBERTZ: Not from the FAA side, 15 Your Honor. 16 MR. FELDMAN: No. We're considering 17 a motion for summary judgment based on the 18 independent contractor status. But, you know, 19 with the evidence that we have, you know, it may 20 or may not be advisable to do it. 21 I requested discovery from the 22 Administrator. And, Don, if you have anything

(202) 234-4433 NEALR. GROSS COURT REPORTERS ANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-443331 

### 1 that shows they're not independent contractors 2 you haven't sent it to me. At this point it

--- -:>-- -----S@€lffi.S---to- be- unopposed-.-- 

### .BuLif therels __an_y_mo.tion 4 

### filed I think that's what it would be. 5 

### JUDGE RAWALD: Okay. Mr. Bobertz, you 6 

### know, therefore, notice that I guess Feldman's 7 

### looking for that information if you have it. 8 

### But, I mean, I certainly don't think that the 9 

### underlying allegation lends itself to a motion 10 

### for summary judgment. 11 

### Because it's certainly a factual 12 

### dispute about whether they were in the clouds or 13 

### not. But I can understand the motion for summary 14 

### judgment on the affirmative defense. Okay. 15 

### And if we could turn to settlement. 16 

### Is there any sort of hope for settlement here? 17 

### Or do you folks think you're just so far apart 18 

### there's no possibility that you could get across 19 

### this here. It sounds like you're totally in 20 

### disagreement about what happened. 21 MR. 

### FELDMAN: Yes. We are in 22 disagreement. And I think we're too far apart to

(202) 234-4433 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE.• N.W. WASHINGTON. D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-443332
1 

### settle it. The problem is that potential future 2 cases will be based on the result from this one,

-------------------- ------:3--

-----------i-f-----t-he-re----are ---an¥--·----------And------

**it-~**_ _s ____i_mpor_t.ant
___ that
____Jf.le
_______ 4 

### argue this one to the fullest. 5 

### Unless there's some settlement that is 6 

### nominal. But at this point that hasn't been 7 

### proposed by the Administrator. 8 

### JUDGE RAWALD: Understood. 9 

### MR. BOBERTZ: We've had some 10 offerings, we've exchanged some offerings back 11 

### and forth some time ago. Gosh, probably over a 12 year ago at this point. 13 But I would agree that I don't think 14 

### we were, we're close, you know. I would never 15 

### say never. But it looks like we're pretty far 16 apart. 17 

### JUDGE RAWALD: Okay. And once again, 18 Mr. Bobertz, of course, remind your client this 19 will be an expensive proposition that will last 20 most of the days, and will include flying all of 21 22 us to Hawaii at this point. But I understand that the, you know, where folks are.

(202) 234-4433 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERSAND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., NW. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 

### And so, I

(202)234-44331 2

-- -- -- ----------- . --3- 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 33 get that. Okay. Let's turn then to one other ··--is-sue--I--wa-nt--tO--go-ov.er-r---tha-t--was--r:a.i.s.ed-at--least partially by what was discussed here. And that's the fact there were some death threats to at least Mr. Feldman's client, in his opinion. Is there a safety issue then that we have to be concerned about for this hearing. Is there any concern with that, Mr. Feldman? MR. FELDMAN: Say that again? JUDGE RAWALD: Do you believe there to be a safety issue for the hearing? I mean, is there any concern here that the witnesses and your client will have any sort of safety concerns? MR. FELDMAN: I don' t know. I don't know the guy that shot the video. I know his father. But I don't know him. But I know he's made slashing marks across his throat. And they've been reported to the FAA and the FBI. I don't know what was done with them. But he's posted stuff on Facebook with threats in it.

(202) 234-4433 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS ANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-443334
1 And if any, if I were concerned about 2 anybody, I'd be concerned about him, and the

----------- ------:0--

-- ---sa-f-e-t-Y---O-f--e¥e-:t::yboGl-Y:--in-t-he-Gou-r-t-:t::oom,-i-f--somebody------

-- 4 decides something against him, or if he perceives 5 that somebody did. That's my biggest concern. 6 And, Don, what do you think? 7 JUDGE RAWALD : Let me just weigh in 8 before Mr. Bobertz's response. I guess my 9 concern is, do you feel like your cross10 examination will be inhibited at all because of 11 these safety concerns? Or do you feel like 12 you'll be able to do a full and fair cross13 examination of this gentleman? 14 MR. FELDMAN: I'm going to do my best. 15 I can't predict the future. But, you know, I'm 16 not going to pull any punches because I'm worried 17 about him. And it wouldn't be the first time a 18 witness scared me. But I intend to try to fully 19 develop the issues that surround his credibility. 20 JUDGE RAWALD: Okay. And Mr. Bobertz? 21 MR. BOBERTZ: Yes. I 've spoken to 22 this, it would be our witness, main witness

(202) 234-4433 NEALR. GROSS COURT REPORTERSANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., NW. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-443335 

### 1 actually who took the video. He happens to be a 2 competitor of the company that Mr. Feldman's

----- -- __]


### - -representi-ng-.----So Ir-appar:ently_thiS---competi-tion------ 4 has been going on for years. 5 And so, he felt like his company was 6 grounding their planes when the other company was 7 

### operating their planes. And it wasn't fair, 8 because they were losing business to the other 9 

### company. So he took videos. 10 

### And there was a lot of hostility 11 apparently between the companies. And, you know, 12 granted he made some inappropriate remarks, and 13 Facebook posts that would appear threatening, you 14 

### know. There's no doubt about that. He was 15 inappropriate. 16 So I hate to give a layman's opinion 17 on safety of people from this, especially when 18 I've talked to him he seems like a reasonable 19 

### individual. But yet, he's posted things that 20 

### aren't reasonable. So, I'd hesitate to say 21 whether it's a safety concern or not. I just 22 don't know.

(202) 234-4433 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., NW. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-443336
1 MR. FELDMAN: And there's really no 2 way to keep his company from doing the same thing

------- ----------3-------

---tohatc--re-porsedly-,---And--the--v-iaeo---is

-ac-S-ua-11-y--taken 4 from the top. So it's easy to see they went 5 through clouds. Mr. Bobertz, I sent you that. 6 And you're not settled. 7 I think his motivation is not safety, 8 it's knocking out the competition. And, you 9 know, I've never met him. Mr. Bobertz has met 10 him, as it were. The inspector has met him. And 11 maybe they would have a better idea of whether or 12 not we have a security issue here. 13 JUDGE RAWALD: Okay. Well, my 14 intention is to get space from a federal 15 courthouse there, which should hopefully help 16 minimize any sort of issue with safety. But I 17 will keep this on our minds as we move closer to 18 trial. 19 I do want to make sure that all 20 parties feel comfortable putting on their case as 21 appropriate, without a fear that somebody may act 22 out in an inappropriate manner. But I will keep

(202) 234-4433 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS ANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., NW. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-443337
1 that in mind. I'll think about this further as 2 we get closer to hearing.

**-------------------:3--------------0ka'f-.---Now-~-the-hea-r-i-ng--date-** -i-tse1f 4 will depend in part upon things outside my 5 control, namely the ability to get the 6 courthouse. And so, you folks have proposed some 7 dates. 8 I can say that the first date, the 9 October date will not work for me. I do want to 10 explore with you the options that you have in 11 December further. If you folks are able to pull 12 up your calendar at this point? Is that, are you 13 able to do that, Mr. Feldman and Mr. Bobertz? 14 MR. BOBERTZ: I can. Yes. 15 MR. FELDMAN: Yes. Let's see. Okay. 16 Yes, I have December. 17 JUDGE RAWALD: Okay. So the week of 18 December 12th through 16th, and the 19th through 19 23rd. Are you folks available then as well at 20 all, or no? 21 MR. FELDMAN: Yes. Those work, those 22 would work for me.

(202) 234-4433 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS ANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLANDAVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-443338
1 

### MR. BOBERTZ: The week of the

-- 2 

### MR. FELDMAN: The 12th through the 3 16th is 

### good.. 4 

### JUDGE RAWALD: The 12th through 16th 5 

### will work for Mr. Feldman. Mr. Bobertz, how 6 about you? 7 

### MR. BOBERTZ: That would work for me 8 as well. The 19th, the week of the 19th would be 9 difficult. 10 JUDGE RAWALD: Okay. So difficult 11 

### means it won't happen. That's fine with me. 12 Okay. 13 

### MR. BOBERTZ: Yes. It's, the kids are 14 off of school, so 15 

### JUDGE RAWALD: I 

### understand 16 completely. I have one myself. So, okay. So 17 the 12th through the 16th might be a player here. 18 And if I were forced to because of scheduling 19 reasons, push it to January, what does the 20 January calendar look for folks? 21 MR. FELDMAN: I don't have my January 22 calendar, so I can't tell you that at this point.

(202) 234-4433 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERSANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLANDAVE., NW. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-443339 

### 1 But we can look into it and give you some dates. 2 And, Don, if you want to coordinate with me.

..-3 

### -MR. BOBERTZ: Sure. 4 

### JUDGE RAWALD: I mean, we get it. I 

### 5 don't want you guys to look at me if you don't 6 

### have to. I will do my best to try to see if we 7 can secure space those first two weeks of 8 December. 9 I think it's more likely to work that 10 second week of December that we just discussed, 11 will be the best week for me. But I will try to 12 do both. 13 

### And then, if I have a need for 14 additional calendars, then I will issue an order 15 asking for folks to submit additional calendar 16 

### dates for me. But I don't want you to worry 17 about it now if you don't have to. Okay? 18 

### MR. FELDMAN: Okay. 19 

### MR. BOBERTZ: Okay. 20 

### JUDGE RAWALD: So I will do my best to 21 work here logistically to make sure we secure a 22 hearing date of some sort. And once we have that

(202) 234-4433 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS ANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLANDAVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202)234-443340 

### 1 hearing site obtained, and a date set, that will 2 drive the remaining dates, as far as the motions 3 -filed.- and when they're due, when the exhibits 4 will be due to me. 5 

### So okay. That's all the issues that 6 I had, that I wanted to go through. Mr. Bobertz, 7 

### do you have anything else you want to discuss 8 while we're on the call together? 9 

### MR. BOBERTZ: No. 

### I just, I was, 10 except I was looking again at the civil penalty. 11 And it looks like if I'm counting right I've got 12 six flights. One on, the first one on December 13 8th, then January 5th, then three on March 22nd, 14 and one on March 25th. 15 So it looks like a total of six at 16 $11,000 a flight would have been $66,000. So I'm 17 

### not sure why. I must have miscounted when I did 18 it, or something, where I came up with I think 19 $55,000. 20 But what we did is, we originally had 21 one. We combined, two cases combined. So I'd 22 have to go back and look in more detail at my

(202) 234-4433 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERSAND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLANDAVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433

### 41

1 

### notes. But it looks like I might have 2 

### miscounted. I 

### didn't have my calculator when I 3 

### wasadding the flightsapparently, fromfiveto4 5 

### JUDGE RAWALD: Might I 

### refer you to 6 

### Page 2 of the complaint, Paragraph 4. So, March 7 25th you allege there are three flights carrying 8 skydivers? 9 

### MR. BOBERTZ: Right. 10 

### JUDGE RAWALD: And so, on March 22nd 11 

### you have three flights carrying skydivers? On 12 Paragraph 3. I 

### count eight. 13 

### MR. BOBERTZ: This is why I 

### left 14 engineering and went to law, because I 

### can't 15 count apparently. 16 

### MR. FELDMAN: Gee, I 

### did the same 17 thing. 18 JUDGE RAWALD: What I 

### see is Paragraph 19 1, one flight on December 18th. Paragraph 2, one 20 

### flight on January 5th. Paragraph 3, 

### three 21 flights on March 22nd. And Paragraph 4, three 22 flights on March 25th.

(202) 234-4433 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS ANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLANDAVE, N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-443342
1 

### MR. BOBERTZ: Right. 2 JUDGE RAWALD: I was hoping

-- 3 

### MR. BOBERTZ: I see that now. So I 4 

### will have to It looks like, as usual, we were 5 

### conservative in the penalty, based on the number 6 

### of flights. 7 

### JUDGE RAWALD : I don' t know if Mr. 8 

### Feldman would agree with you with that. 9 

### MR. BOBERTZ: I'm sure he won't. 10 

### MR. FELDMAN: No comment, Your Honor. 11 

### JUDGE RAWALD: Okay, sir. Okay. 12 

### MR. BOBERTZ: But I'll, of course, I 13 

### could get back to you shortly with the details on 14 

### that. Or if you need them before the hearing, on 15 

### the details of how we came up with that. 16 

### JUDGE RAWALD: I don't think so. At 17 the hearing I certainly will be asking you 18 questions about the number, and why that number 19 is the appropriate number. 20 So, just so you folks know, I will be 21 

### asking you both questions. I do want to make 22 sure I understand the pleadings, I understand

(202) 234-4433 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLANDAVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-443343 

### 1 what's going on. 2 So I 

### will be asking you both questions 3 

### at points through the hearing to understand what 4 

### we 're doing, and how things are going. And 5 

### that's important for me to do that. 6 

### Okay. So, Mr. Feldman, do you have 7 

### any questions for me? Anything else you want to 8 

### bring up? This is your chance to -- 9 

### MR. FELDMAN: No, Your Honor. No. 10 Not at this time. 11 

### JUDGE RAWALD: Okay. So what I will 12 do then is I will issue a report based on this 13 pre-hearing conference we held today, summarizing 14 all the issues. 15 Then I will work to try to secure a 16 site for us to have a hearing on the dates that 17 you told me that you're available in November or 18 December. And those October dates will not work 19 for me. And
-- 20 

### MR. FELDMAN: Your Honor, Your Honor, 21 one more thing that I thought of. We will be, 22 since this case is based on videos, there will be

(202) 234-4433 NEALR. GROSS COURT REPORTERSAND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-443344 1 videos that need to be shown. 2 So there needs to be some provision 3 for a system to play, I assume DVDs or tape, or 4 whatever the original format of the evidence is. 5 And a way to project that so that Your Honor can 6 see it, and the attorneys can see it, and the 7 witness. 8 JUDGE RAWALD: Right. Because you're 9 going to want the witness to actually talk about 10 the video, you're saying? 11 MR. FELDMAN: Yes. 12 JUDGE RAWALD: So, okay. So we '11 13 make sure we do that. Okay. 14 MR. FELDMAN: And also, since it's a 15 federal courthouse, are there any restrictions on 16 bringing our laptops in? 17 JUDGE RAWALD: Well, so I will find 18 out, and I will let you know. So

-- 19 MR. FELDMAN: Okay. Because that's 2

### o going to be essential that we be able to bring 21 them in. And we're officers of the court. So, 22 you know, yes.

(202) 234-4433 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS ANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLANDAVE., NW. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-443345
1 

### JUDGE RAWALD: I haven't been to the 2 

### federal courthouse in Honolulu. But what I can 3 tell you is my experience in the past has been 4 

### that attorneys and the judge

-- 5 

### Because I also use a laptop. I 

### type 6 

### while we talk, because I think it's better than 7 

### handwriting. Will be necessary. So I'll make 8 

### sure that's allowable before we agree to the 9 

### space. But these are all matters we need to work 10 

### out to make sure we can have the hearing take 11 

### place in an orderly fashion. 12 

### MR. FELDMAN: Okay. 13 

### JUDGE RAWALD : Anything else? Mr. 14 Bobertz, have you had any experience in Honolulu 15 

### at all? Have you gone there for any hearings 16 before? 17 

### MR. BOBERTZ: I have. It was maybe 18 about a year ago. And that was no issue to bring 19 in our laptops. 20 

### JUDGE RAWALD: Okay. And did you have 21 

### it at the federal courthouse? 22

(202) 234-4433 

### MR. BOBERTZ: I did, yes, I did.

NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS ANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLANDAVE,, NW. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-443346
1 

### JUDGE RAWALD: Okay. And were there 2 any audio visual 3 

### MR. FELDMAN: All right. You did. 4 

### JUDGE RAWALD : And were there audio 5 visual facilities to show videos and those kinds 6 of things there as well? 7 

### MR. BOBERTZ: I don't know. We didn't 8 

### need it in that case. So it wasn't an issue. 9 

### JUDGE RAWALD: Okay. And that was 10 with Judge Goodwin you were with at that hearing? 11 

### MR. BOBERTZ: I'm sorry? 12 JUDGE RAWALD: Was that with Judge 13 Goodwin, that hearing that you did out there? 14 

### MR. BOBERTZ: Yes. Yes. It was I 15 

### think three in one week we did. And we didn 't 16 have any audio visual stuff for any of them. But 17 always I've had my laptop on there. And that was 18 not an issue. 19 

### JUDGE RAWALD: And right now I don't 20 

### plan on backing this case with anything else. I 

### 21 think it's busy enough that we can do this case 22 by itself, without having to, the need to forcing

(202) 234-4433 NEALR. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-443347

1 

### other cases in the timeframe. So, just so you 2 know, Mr. Bobertz, it's not my intention to try 3 to make you have, be overworked in oneweek. 4 

### MR. BOBERTZ: Appreciate that. 5 

### MR. FELDMAN: It's the only I have, 6 

### Your Honor. So I won't be overworked. 7 

### JUDGE RAWALD : Okay. Anything else 8 for us to discuss? One last chance, Mr. Bobertz? 9 

### MR. BOBERTZ: No, Your Honor. 10 

### JUDGE RAWALD: Okay. Mr. Feldman? 11 

### MR. FELDMAN: Nothing, Your Honor. 12 JUDGE RAWALD: Okay. Well then, thank 13 

### you both for your time today. I really 14 

### appreciate it. And I also appreciate your 15 

### candor. And frankly, I really appreciate the 16 fact that you're able to be so cooperative with 17 one another leading up to this matter. 18 

### So, not all the cases I have are 19 

### people being so cooperative. But I certainly 20 agree with the fact, appreciate the fact that you 21 are working together where possible to resolve 22 these issues. Okay.

(202) 234-4433 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERSANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLANDAVE., NW. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-443348
1 

### MR. FELDMAN: Well, Your Honor, we're 2 

### colleagues. We're not enemies. People forget 3 that in this profession, unfortunately. 4 

### JUDGE RAWALD: I agree. And I've been 5 on all sides of things, defense, prosecution, and 6 

### the Government. So I feel like everyone, and 7 

### judging. So I feel like it's good for all our 8 

### members to be civil. So, thank you both. 9 

### MR. FELDMAN: Thank you, Your Honor. 10 

### MR. BOBERTZ: All right. Thank you. 11 

### JUDGE RAWALD : Now we'll go off the 12 

### call. Thank you very much. We're off the 13 record. 14 (Whereupon, the above-entitled matter 15 went off the record at 3:42 p.m.) 16 17 18 19 20 21 22

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Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. (202) 234-4433 Washington DC 54

www.nealrgross.comC E R T I F I C A T E

This is to certify that the foregoing transcript

In the matter of: Pacific International Skydiving Center Before: DOT/OH

Date: 05-17-16

Place: teleconference

was duly recorded and accurately transcribed under my direction; further, that said transcript is a true and accurate record of the proceedings.

Court Reporter 55

(202) 2344433 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERSANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLANDAVE, NW. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com