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UNITED STATES OF AMERICA 

DEPARTMENT OF TRANSPORTATION 

OFFICE OF HEARINGS 

IN THE MATTER OF: 

PACIFIC INTERNATIONAL 

SKYDIVING CENTER 

Respondent 

Tuesday, 

May 17, 2016 

FDMS No. 

FAA-2014-1116 

1 

The teleconference convened, pursuant 

to notice, at 3:00 p.m. 

BEFORE: 

THE HONORABLE DOUGLAS RAWALD, 

U.S. Administrative Law Judge 

(202) 234-4433 

RECEIVED 

JUN 0 1 2016 

HEARING DOCKET 

NEAL R. GROSS 

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 
APPEARANCES: 

On Behalf of the Complainant: 

DON BOBERTZ, ESQ. 

of: Federal Aviation Administration 

Office of the Chief Counsel 

15000 Aviation Boulevard 

Lawndale, California 90261 

310-725-3454 

don.bobertz@faa.gov 

On Behalf of the Respondent: 

ROBERT FELDMAN, ESQ. 

of: Law Office of Robert L Feldman 

8900 S.W. 107th Avenue 

Suite 203 

Miami, Florida 33176 

305-598-4841 

feldmans48@hotmail.com 

Also Present: 

KEVIN SIKES, Legal Intern, 

Department of Transportation Office 

of Hearings 

NEAL R. GROSS 

2 

(202) 234-4433 

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1 P-R-0-C-E-E-D-I-N-G-S 

2 (3:02p.m.) 

J"lJDGE . R.A,WALD: 

4 involving Pacific International Skydiving Center, 

5 a pre-hearing conference here on May 17th, 2016 

6 at 3:00 p.m. Eastern Standard Time. 

7 We're joined by Mr. Don Bobertz from 

8 the Federal Aviation Administration, representing 

9 the Government. Mr. Robert Feldman is 

10 respondent's counsel. And also our court 

11 reporter is here as well. With me in the office 

12 is a legal intern, Mr. Kevin Sikes. 

13 Just so you folks know, if I, I will 

14. prompt you before asking you a question, so you 

15 know it's time to speak, just so we can make sure 

16 the phone keeps open. 

17 And if I want to interrupt you at some 

18 time, and I can't get your attention, I'll go 

19 ahead and push a button on the phone. So if you 

20 hear an annoying ring it's because I'm trying to 

21 say, hey, listen, let me go ahead and speak at 

22 the moment. 

(202) 234-4433 

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4 

1 So, to summarize where we are --

2 MR. BOBERTZ: Yes. 

:3 ............ __ _ __ ,JlfQG.E .. _RAWALJ:l: ...... Qkq,}'. Just. . to 

4 summarize where we are, the first pre-hearing 

5 conference in this matter. As I understand it 

6 both parties have told me to date that they do 

7 not have a problem with the venue. So the venue 

8 will, for this hearing, be Honolulu, Hawaii. 

9 Both parties have agreed that 

10 discovery is complete. And all parties agree 

11 that there are no motions pending for me to rule 

12 upon at this time. Mr. Bobertz, do you agree 

13 with that? 

14 MR. BOBERTZ: I do. 

15 JUDGE RAWALD: Okay. 

16 MR. FELDMAN: And I also agree with 

17 it, Your Honor. 

18 JUDGE RAWALD: Wonderful. Now if we 

19 could turn to scheduling issues, and just so I 

20 can get my head around that. You folks have 

21 proposed having motions due 60 days prior to the 

2 2 hearing, and then a telephonic hearing 3 0 days 

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1 before the hearing. 

2 I do want to build some time in there 

.. 3. 

4 motion filing would you want before you have to 

5 file a response, Mr. Bobertz? 

6 MR. BOBERTZ: Probably 15 days. 

7 JUDGE RAWALD: Okay. Mr. Feldman, is 

8 15 days sufficient for you as well if you receive 

9 a motion, to respond to that motion? 

10 MR. FELDMAN: Yes, I think so. 

11 JUDGE RAWALD: Okay. And if --

12 MR. FELDMAN: Providing that, you 

13 know, I'm not in court. I'm a sole practitioner. 

14 So, I don't have a huge support staff. So, you 

15 know, if I'm in court or traveling for some 

16 reason, I may need an extension on that. 

17 JUDGE RAWALD: Okay. So, and I would 

18 view favorably any request for that, as long as 

19 you talk to Mr. Bobertz first, and he agrees with 

20 that. But I would certainly have no problem with 

21 that. 

22 

(202) 234·4433 

MR. FELDMAN: Yes, of course. 

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1 JUDGE RAWALD: Mr. Bobertz, do you 

2 have a comment? 

3 MIL BOBEB.TZ: No. That Is, rwould.n It 

4 have an issue with making it longer too, ahead of 

5 time to account for that possibility as well, you 

6 know. Either way is fine. 

7 JUDGE RAWALD : Let's just look for, 

8 I'll, let's look for 30 days then, just to give 

9 you folks more time. Now, Mr. Bobertz, would you 

10 want to have the ability to reply to any 

11 response? Or do you think one brief per side 

12 would be sufficient on any motion? 

13 MR. BOBERTZ: I think one brief per 

14 side is sufficient. 

15 JUDGE RAWALD: Okay. And Mr. Feldman, 

16 how about yourself? 

17 MR. FELDMAN: Yes, I think so. 

18 JUDGE RAWALD: Wonderful. And then 

19 we'll have to have a telephonic hearing. Now, I 

20 would prefer to issue orders on motions before we 

21 actually show up at a hearing. Is that, would 

22 you guys agree that's probably more appropriate? 

(202) 234·4433 

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1 Mr. Bobertz? 

2 MR. BOBERTZ: Yes, I would agree. 

. 3. JUDGERAWALD: . Mr. Feldman . 

4 MR. FELDMAN: I agree also. 

5 JUDGE RAWALD: Okay. So I'm going to 

6 try to build in some time as well to make sure 

7 that my orders are issued before you have the 

8 hearing, so you folks can know where the lay of 

9 the land is there. 

10 MR. FELDMAN: Thank you. 

11 JUDGE RAWALD: I may push the date 

12 back a little bit further before the hearing, 

13 just to make, accommodate all these extra things 

14 I want to make sure we have. I'd like to issue 

15 my order probably 30 days before the hearing. 

16 MR. FELDMAN: Okay. Well, Mr. Bobertz 

17 and I have been working well on resolving dates, 

18 and finding mutually convenient dates. And of 

19 course, it depends on Your Honor's schedule too. 

20 But for say, the back and forth of this picking a 

21 date, if you indicate how far back you want to 

22 push it, then Mr. Bobertz and I can give you some 

(202) 234A433 

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1 possible dates. 

2 JUDGE RAWALD: Okay. That's helpful. 

Let me just t;ry out; t;heE:e though. Let's. Siiy, how 

4 about if I give the order 15 days before the 

5 hearing. So we'll have the telephonic hearing 30 

6 days before the hearing. Responses would be due 

7 45 days. So, I'm talking to myself here while 

8 I'm looking at these dates, fellows. I'm sorry. 

9 So, okay. So what I plan on doing is 

10 having motions due 75 days before the hearing. 

11 The response to the motion is due 45 days before 

12 the hearing. A telephonic hearing 30 days before 

13 the hearing. And then my order will be issued 15 

14 days after that telephonic hearing. So 15 days 

15 before the hearing. 

16 And I'm putting together a report that 

17 you folks will have, summarizing all this. But 

18 just the track on, and looking at this at the 

19 moment. Mr. Bobertz, does that work for you? 

20 

21 

22 

(202) 234-4433 

MR. BOBERTZ: That sounds great. 

JUDGE RAWALD: Okay. And Mr. Feldman? 

MR. FELDMAN: Yes, it's fine. 

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1 JUDGE RAWALD: Now, as far as 

2 exchanging witnesses and evidence lists, how far 

:3 in advance would yo11 want to do that, Mr. 

4 Bobertz? 

5 MR. BOBERTZ: Maybe 30 days. 

6 JUDGE RAWALD: Okay. Understanding 

7 you've already completed all discovery. So there 

8 shouldn't be anything new on there. But just 

9 something so everyone knows who you're calling. 

10 And Mr. Feldman, would you be comfortable sharing 

11 your witness list and evidence 30 days before the 

12 hearing? 

13 MR. FELDMAN: Yes, absolutely. And we 

14 may need to get some hearing subpoenas out also. 

15 So I'll apply to them through your office, I 

16 guess, Your Honor. 

17 JUDGE RAWALD : Okay. And so, when 

18 would you want to issue those? Because I 

19 obviously want to give individuals sufficient 

20 time to get there. Are these folks that are 

21 local to Honolulu? Or folks that would 

22 

(202) 234-4433 

MR. FELDMAN: Yes. Most of them are 

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1 local to Honolulu. I do, anyhow, you know, we 

2 can't give them before we know the hearing dates. 

3 So, you know, I mean, I can get them ont ~o gay:;; 

4 before the hearing. Though I'll probably get 

5 them out sooner. 

6 JUDGE RAWALD: Okay. I need subpoena 

7 requests received by me 30 days before the 

8 hearing. 

9 MR. FELDMAN: Okay, yes. 

10 JUDGE RAWALD: Okay. And that --

11 MR. FELDMAN: At least 30 days. 

12 JUDGE RAWALD: -- immediately. Mr. 

13 Bobertz, I'm sorry. 

14 MR. FELDMAN: That was Robert Feldman. 

15 I said, at least 30 days before the hearing. 

16 JUDGE RAWALD: Okay. And, Mr. 

17 Bobertz, does that work for you? 

18 MR. BOBERTZ: Yes. 

19 JUDGE RAWALD: Okay. And what I 

20 prefer is to have my, the evidence supplied to me 

21 by CD, rather than you folks sending me a big 

22 stack of documents, if that's possible. 

(202) 234-4433 

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Does 

(202) 234-4433 
11 

1 that work for both parties? 

2 MR. FELDMAN: Works for me. 

3 JUDGE AAWALP: Mr. Bobe:rt<:? 

4 MR. BOBERTZ: Yes. That should work 

5 fine. That sounds great. 

6 JUDGE RAWALD: Okay. So how long 

7 before the hearing could you both provide me a 

8 complete copy of their intended exhibits. Mr. 

9 Bobertz? 

10 MR. BOBERTZ: I'm thinking 30 days. 

11 But if you want more time, that's probably not an 

12 issue either. 

13 JUDGE RAWALD: No, 30 days is 

14 sufficient. And, Mr. Feldman, as for you, 30 

15 days is fine? 

16 MR. FELDMAN: Yes, 30 days works for 

17 me. 

18 JUDGE RAWALD : Okay. And that way, 

19 that will give me a chance to look at the 

20 exhibits and be familiar with them before we 

21 actually have the hearing. Okay. Now 

22 

(202) 234-4433 

(Simultaneous speaking.) 

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1 MR. FELDMAN: Do you want the exhibits 

2 pre -marked with exhibit numbers or letters, to 

4 JUDGE RAWALD : Right. I'd prefer to 

5 do that. And then if there's any that I don't 

6 admit for some reason, then we will just keep 

7 that noted that that wasn't admitted. So that --

8 MR. FELDMAN: Yes. That's okay. So, 

9 we'll pre-mark them. Do you prefer numbers or 

10 letters? 

11 JUDGE RAWALD : Well, what makes it 

12 easier actually is if one party does letters and 

13 one party does numbers. So my preference I guess 

14 would be for the Government to use numbers, and 

15 the respondent to use letters, if that works for 

16 you folks. 

17 MR. FELDMAN: Okay. Or would it be 

18 easier if we just labeled them AA1 through 

19 whatever, and R1 through whatever? That way we'd 

20 know what the exhibits are. We don't have to 

21 remember an additional criterion. 

22 

(202) 234-4433 

JUDGE RAWALD: Yes, sir. 

NEAL R. GROSS 

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No, that 

(202) 234-4433 
13 

1 would be fine. If you wanted to do C1 for 

2 complainant and R1 for respondent, that works 

4 MR. FELDMAN: Okay. Don, are you okay 

5 with that? 

6 MR. BOBERTZ: Yes, that's fine. Yes. 

7 Sometimes we do A1 for administrator. Sometimes 

8 we do C1 for complainant. 

9 JUDGE RAWALD: Whichever one you 

10 decide, as long as you are consistent. It 

11 doesn't, I really don't have a preference either 

12 way. So I just want folks to be consistent, and 

13 us to know what we're talking about when we get 

14 to the point where we're on the record. 

15 MR. BOBERTZ: Sure. Okay. 

16 JUDGE RAWALD: Okay. And then, as far 

17 as the, after the hearing's over, do the parties 

18 have a preference as far as post hearing briefs? 

19 Mr. Bobertz? 

20 MR. BOBERTZ: Sir, is that what you 

21 plan to do, is do post hearing briefs, and then 

22 issue a decision later, versus a decision at the 

(202) 234-4433 

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1 hearing? 

2 JUDGE RAWALD: So to be clear, I don't 

3 ... __ have. _a pr_e.ference. 

4 parties the opportunity to submit post hearing 

5 briefs. You're not going to be obligated. 

6 If you change your mind later on and 

7 say, you know what, this trial turned out to be a 

8 lot more complicated. I really want to go ahead 

9 and submit a post hearing brief. I would 

10 certainly entertain that discussion later. 

11 I just thought it would be helpful now 

12 to kind of establish whether folks on either 

13 side, yourself and Mr. Feldman, want the 

14 opportunity to write a post hearing brief. 

15 Because that will help us understand what we want 

16 to do here. 

17 MR. FELDMAN: Yes. At this point I 

18 don't see a need for it. But as Your Honor said, 

19 it depends on how the trial develops. so, 

20 reserving the right to request them. And Mr. 

21 Bobertz the same thing. You know, at this point 

22 let's not include them. 

(202) 234-4433 

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1 JUDGE RAWALD: Okay. So we' 11 keep 

2 open the possibility. But at this point there's 

.... 3 ___ no need for it _in_ your .. mind, Mr. _Feldman. _Mr . 

4 Bobertz, do you agree that there's probably no 

5 need for a post hearing brief either, in your 

6 mind? 

7 MR. BOBERTZ: I would agree. But I 

8 think it's basically, I '11 reserve the right to 

9 do so if we change our mind at the hearing, or 

10 shortly after. 

11 JUDGE RAWALD: Yes. Just so you 

12 understand, my real belief on post hearing briefs 

13 is, they're most useful for two areas. If 

14 there's some complicated area of law that we 

15 really need to discuss. Or, if there's something 

16 like in the Administrator's context, where you 

17 feel you want to explain the totality better. 

18 And that might be a better chance to do that. 

19 Those are two areas where I think the 

20 post hearing brief can be most useful to me 

21 

22 

sitting as the Administrative Law Judge. But 

we'll discuss it at the hearing. 

(202) 234-4433 

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And at this 

(202) 234-4433 
16 

1 point we'll plan on not having any post hearing 

2 briefs. But if we think of a need, then we'll go 

3 __ _ __ ahead and do that. 

4 I do want to issue a decision in 

5 writing. But if there are no post hearing briefs 

6 I will issue it sooner. And maybe even at the 

7 time of the hearing if I can possibly pull that 

8 off. 

9 Because I think it's, you know, your 

10 clients on both sides have been waiting a very 

11 long time for resolution of these issues. And I 

12 certainly don't want to delay things. 

13 MR. BOBERTZ: Sure. 

14 MR. FELDMAN: My client doesn't mind 

15 the delay one bit, Your Honor. 

16 JUDGE RAWALD: I understand. If we 

17 could turn now to talking about some substantive 

18 matters. Mr. Bobertz, I want to put you on the 

19 spot here, and understand a little more about 

20 what's being alleged. 

21 Now, can you tell me how many 

22 violations of the parachuting regulation are you 

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1 looking at here? I'm referring to 14 CFR 105.17. 

2 MR. BOBERTZ: Right. So, there was 

3 -- __ December. .8th,_ January _S.th, _ Ma:cch _ .22nd, March 

4 25th. There were four different dates. And I 

5 don't recall offhand how many violations per day. 

6 But I think we counted it as essentially four 

7 violations, is how we calculated the civil 

8 penalty. 

9 JUDGE RAWALD: Okay. Because that's 

10 what I was confused. Because I saw four 

11 different dates. But the first two dates, 

12 December 18th and January 5th, there are one 

13 flight alleged. But on the next two dates, March 

14 22nd and March 24th there were three flights 

15 alleged. 

16 And I wasn't certain if you were 

17 alleging that each independent flight on those 

18 last two days were a violation, or just those 

19 dates themselves constituted a violation. 

20 

21 

22 

MR. BOBERTZ: I think there were 

violations on those, each flight. But I think 

for the 

(202) 234-4433 

I apologize. I' 11 have to double 

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1 check my civil penalty calculations. 

2 But I think for the purposes of 

... .3 ... calculating the. penalties, .. it was . fig_uring on,. 

4 even though there are multiple flights on those 

5 days, that those were figured on the, one date. 

6 But I apologize. I'll have to double check. 

7 JUDGE RAWALD: Okay. So I won't hold 

8 you to this. But you think it was four total on 

9 that, is what you're looking at, as far as the 

10 violations go. 

11 MR. BOBERTZ: Right. 

12 JUDGE RAWALD: And then, as far as the 

13 regulations goes, it looks like you were wholly 

14 alleging the, actually going into or through a 

15 cloud, the subparagraph A there, and not the 

16 stuff in subparagraph B, which requires the 

17 distance from the cloud cover. Is that right? 

18 MR. BOBERTZ: That's correct. 

19 JUDGE RAWALD: Okay. So your intent 

20 then at the hearing is to actually prove that 

21 there are folks that left this plane, and dropped 

22 through clouds at that, on those days? 

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7 

8 

9 

10 

11 

12 

13 

14 

15 

16 

17 

18 

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20 

21 

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MR. BOBERTZ: That's correct. 

JUDGE RAWALD: Okay. And when you're 

witnesses and expert witnesses? Or only fact 

witnesses? Or only experts? 

MR. BOBERTZ: Both. 

JUDGE RAWALD: Okay. Are you able to 

kind of give me a thumbnail sketch of what you're 

going to prove? Other than people who actually 

witnessed the events, or people that were 

actually parachuting? What's going to happen 

here? 

MR. BOBERTZ: Mostly somebody that 

actually witnessed and videotaped the events. 

JUDGE RAWALD: Okay. And was that 

someone actually parachuting with them, or 

somebody from the ground? 

MR. BOBERTZ: Somebody from the 

ground. But, and then there's also helmet cam 

footage from some of the jumpers. 

JUDGE RAWALD: Understood. And for 

violation number two here, with the dangerous 

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1 operation of an aircraft. Is that based on the 

2 same facts and circumstances? If, you know, if I 

- - --- _3 __ __ find a_tfirst that they_committe_d the_ yi_olat_ion __ 

4 of the parachuting through the clouds, then they 

5 in fact violated number two as well? 

6 MR. BOBERTZ: Correct. It's a 

7 residual 91-13. 

8 JUDGE RAWALD: Okay. And so, when you 

9 look at residual, are you assessing additional 

10 penalties based upon that? 

11 MR. BOBERTZ: Well 

12 JUDGE RAWALD: Or is that not --

13 MR. BOBERTZ: No. 

14 JUDGE RAWALD : Okay. So to get to 

15 this $55,000 dollar number then, you must have 

16 viewed there being more than simply the four 

17 violations. Is that right? 

18 MR. BOBERTZ: Before the end of this 

19 call I should be able to give you that 

20 information. I'll look that up for you. 

21 JUDGE RAWALD: Okay. Because it was, 

22 what I'm looking at here is the maximum violation 

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1 seems to be $11,000 for each, maximum penalty 

2 $11,000 for each violation. So I want to kind of 

4 So, I'll come back to you, Mr. Bobertz, on that. 

5 MR. BOBERTZ: Okay. 

6 JUDGE RAWALD: Let me turn to Mr. 

7 Feldman. So, anything you heard from Mr. Bobertz 

8 new to you, or something you were not aware of, 

9 sir? 

10 MR. FELDMAN: No, nothing I was 

11 unaware of. Of course, we disagree with it. We 

12 disagree with the, first that the jumps through 

13 clouds occurred. Second that the company that is 

14 hiring the personnel as independent contractors 

15 to perform the parachute jump services, and 

16 piloting services, had any control over it. 

17 And legally we're going to contend 

18 that if there's an independent contractor, except 

19 for common carriers, and skydiving isn't common 

20 carrier, there's no responsibility on the part of 

21 the operator for what the independent contractors 

22 do. That's the crux of my case. 

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1 And the investigation is another 

2 aspect. The reliability of the Administrator's 

4 against my client. And the integrity of the 

5 evidence itself are also going to be subject to 

6 question. 

7 JUDGE RAWALD: Okay. So if I hear you 

8 correctly, Mr. Feldman, you're first of all going 

9 to at least put on evidence, or challenge the 

10 Government's evidence of the actual falling 

11 through the cloud. 

12 You're going to question the 

13 reliability investigation by challenging the 

14 credibility of their key witness on that issue. 

15 And then also, you're going to raise the 

16 affirmative defense that if they actually did 

17 fall through a cloud, the folks doing it were 

18 independent contractors, and were not actually 

19 your client. Is that correct? 

20 

21 Honor. 

22 

(202) 234-4433 

MR. FELDMAN: That's correct, Your 

JUDGE RAWALD: Okay. And so, if you 

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1 show the independent contractor, if you can give 

2 me a little more information about how are you 

. _3_ .. ____ going __ to addr.ess thaL_issue? 

4 MR. FELDMAN: Well, we've already 

5 provided to Mr. Bobertz copies of the 1099. 

6 There will also be testimony of the company as to 

7 how they pay the persons performing services for 

8 them. 

9 There will be other testimony showing 

10 that it's industry standard to employ independent 

11 contractors, or contract with independent 

12 contractors for these services in the parachuting 

13 industry. 

14 And that there's no way that anyone on 

15 the ground can control what somebody does in the 

16 aircraft. And we're not, I mean, we're not using 

17 drones here for skydiving, where the door would 

18 open and close. And it would automatically land 

19 if the company didn't like it. So, you know, 

20 there really is no control over it. 

21 And the independent contractor status, 

22 the 1099s are showing that the personnel used by 

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1 the company are given independent contractor 

2 status. It's never been challenged by the IRS, 

3 .. _________ hecaus_e it_rs _industr_y_standard. ___ I _ think _it __ has 

4 in other job zones. 

5 But they're individually licensed. 

6 They're individually qualified by a third party 

7 entity. So they're required to live up to the 

8 requirements of their certificates, be it airman 

9 certificates or a parachute instructor 

10 certificates. 

11 JUDGE RAWALD: Okay. Just to give you 

12 each a heads up on the matter. It seems to me 

13 that the independent contractor issue is a 

14 legally complex issue. It's developed certainly 

15 a lot of case law from the FAA Administrator on 

16 the different independent contractors. 

17 So, if there was an area that would 

18 lend itself to post hearing briefs, as we're 

19 looking ahead at things, that would probably be 

20 an area that would be helpful, if we were to 

21 decide to do that down the road. 

22 there is some complex law there. 

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So, because 

(202) 234-4433 
1 

2 

--- --- ---------- . _3_ -

4 

5 

6 

7 

8 

9 

10 

11 

12 

13 

14 

15 

16 

17 

18 

19 

20 

21 

22 

25 

Okay. And as I'm listening to both of 

you folks talk, it's definitely clear to me that 

___ there'_s ___ go_ing __ t_o __ .be_ a _number _o£. witnes_s_es_ here ... 

It's going to be at least a somewhat lengthy 

trial. Now, Mr. Bobertz, how many days do you 

think this will actually take? 

MR. BOBERTZ: I'm just pausing because 

I 'm thinking. I wouldn' t think it would take 

more than two days. But I might allow three, 

schedule for three. 

JUDGE RAWALD: Okay. And Mr. Feldman? 

MR. FELDMAN: I think three days is 

the minimum. I certainly can do our best to get 

it done. It depends on how cooperative the 

Administrator's witnesses are answering my 

questions. But I think three days. I don't 

think two is realistic. 

JUDGE RAWALD : Okay. Because of the 

number of witnesses, and the complexity of the 

evidence you're going to put on? 

MR. FELDMAN: Yes. 

JUDGE RAWALD: Okay. Understood. So 

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1 I will always try to plan to err on the side of 

2 longer, because I don't want the case to be 

.. :3 ... --·---· .a:r:ti.f ic.ially..aff e.c.ted_by __ a_timeline_ thaLT_think ___ _ 

4 is unnecessary. 

5 So I will try to, and as we're looking 

6 at the, certainly the schedule in this case, make 

7 it so we have enough time to be more than 

8 sufficient to take up the issue. 

9 So now, as far as, have you folks 

10 discussed having any stipulations about testimony 

11 or facts at all? Or is there anything that we 

12 can resolve by doing that, as opposed to having 

13 witnesses on the issue? 

14 MR. FELDMAN: We haven't discussed 

15 that, Your Honor. I don't know if there's any 

16 area that that can be accomplished. But, you 

17 know, we're contesting the videos that the 

18 Administrator provided to us. So, you know, I 

19 think it's critical to examine those videos, and 

20 get testimony as to how they were produced. 

21 And also, there will be expert 

22 testimony as to the inaccuracies of photographing 

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1 from the ground, actions taking place in the sky, 

2 which is why, which was why passes at air shows 

~ ------~--- --3 --~ ~~~ ~--wo:r:ked-so-wel.L.-But-so, ~~ 'fOU-.kno:w_, __ there_ __ wi_ll_he, _ 

4 I don't think there's anything that we can agree 

5 on at this time to stipulate to. 

6 JUDGE RAWALD: Okay. And I'm not 

7 asking you folks to submit today. But, Mr. 

8 Bobertz, you were going to say something? 

9 MR. BOBERTZ: Yes. The only thing I'd 

10 think that would be a potential to stipulate to 

11 at the moment, would be the flights that -- But I 

12 don't think there's any question that the flights 

13 were operated, however you want to say it, out of 

14 Pacific International Skydiving. 

15 You know, the pilot was, I understand 

16 the allegations regarding independent contractor. 

17 And that, you know, the hesitation to stipulate 

18 that it was actually Pacific International 

19 operating the flights. 

20 But, you know, I don't think there's 

21 any question that those flights were operated. 

22 And they were operated at least 

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by the 

(202) 234-4433 
28 

1 independent contractor to Pacific International 

2 Skydiving. 

---- -- -- -------- -----3-- - -- - - --- - -- - __ xou know_,_ _if _we ____ could __ _g_eL_t_o ____ that_ 

4 point, then we don't have to put it in, we would 

5 save time in the evidence of putting on the 

0 

6 evidence of the flights, that they were Pacific 

7 International Skydiving. 

8 JUDGE RAWALD: Okay. 

9 MR. FELDMAN: Your Honor, the problem 

10 we have with that is the accuracy of the video, 

11 and the ability of creative editing to accomplish 

12 a purpose. 

13 I don't want to go into the evidence 

14 at this point. But Mr. Bobertz is aware of it. 

15 And some of it included death threats to 

16 employees of my client, the contractors of my 

17 client. 

18 And there's a concern as to whether 

19 the videos themselves are accurate. And so, 

20 that's why we can't stipulate that these flights, 

21 or using these flights in quotation marks, 

22 actually occurred. 

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1 Because these flights may be a 

2 combination of flights. And again, we don't know 

--- ---------- -- -- ____ 3 __ - -- ______ a_t__thi_s ___ p_o_int_ ________ B_u_t_, ____ y_ou _ kno_w_, _____ we ___ e__e_r_:_t_a_i_n_lJ[ ____ dQn_ ~ _ t _______ _ 

4 know that these videos are accurate. 

5 JUDGE RAWALD: Okay. Well, let's do 

6 this then. Mr. Bobertz, if you think there's an 

7 area that you could possibly have a stipulation 

8 to, if you could write that up and send that to 

9 Mr. Feldman, see if he'd be agreeable to 

10 stipulating to that. And possibly, you could 

11 pass a draft back and forth over the coming days. 

12 You know, we have several months for 

13 the hearing to take place at least. That would 

14 help eliminate some possible witnesses on each 

15 end. But if you can't come to an area, that's 

16 fine. 

17 I just want you folks, if you can, to 

18 think of ways where you could help us narrow what 

19 we're looking at. So, the really important 

20 issues come up, and the things that aren't 

21 important we can dispense with, and really focus 

22 on what's important here. 

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1 So, is there anything either side 

2 wants me to take judicial notice of? Mr. 

_ _ __________________ 3 _____ B.ober.tz.?._____________ _ _ ___ _ 

4 MR. BOBERTZ: Nothing I can think of 

5 at the moment, Your Honor. 

6 JUDGE RAWALD: Okay. Mr. Feldman. 

7 MR. FELDMAN: Nothing at this time, 

8 Your Honor. 

9 JUDGE RAWALD: Okay. And obviously 

10 you can raise any later. I just wanted to see 

11 about that now. Okay. And does either side have 

12 any idea about any motions that they want to 

13 raise at this point? 

14 MR. BOBERTZ: Not from the FAA side, 

15 Your Honor. 

16 MR. FELDMAN: No. We're considering 

17 a motion for summary judgment based on the 

18 independent contractor status. But, you know, 

19 with the evidence that we have, you know, it may 

20 or may not be advisable to do it. 

21 I requested discovery from the 

22 Administrator. And, Don, if you have anything 

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1 that shows they're not independent contractors 

2 you haven't sent it to me. At this point it 

--- -:>-- -----S@€lffi.S--- to- be- unopposed-.-- .BuL if there ls __ an_y_mo.tion 

4 filed I think that's what it would be. 

5 JUDGE RAWALD: Okay. Mr. Bobertz, you 

6 know, therefore, notice that I guess Feldman's 

7 looking for that information if you have it. 

8 But, I mean, I certainly don't think that the 

9 underlying allegation lends itself to a motion 

10 for summary judgment. 

11 Because it's certainly a factual 

12 dispute about whether they were in the clouds or 

13 not. But I can understand the motion for summary 

14 judgment on the affirmative defense. Okay. 

15 And if we could turn to settlement. 

16 Is there any sort of hope for settlement here? 

17 Or do you folks think you're just so far apart 

18 there's no possibility that you could get across 

19 this here. It sounds like you're totally in 

20 disagreement about what happened. 

21 MR. FELDMAN: Yes. We are in 

22 disagreement. And I think we're too far apart to 

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1 settle it. The problem is that potential future 

2 cases will be based on the result from this one, 

-------------------- ------:3-- --- --------i-f-----t-he-re----are ---an¥--·----------And------ it-~ _ _s ____ i_mpor_t.ant ___ that ____ Jf.le ______ _ 

4 argue this one to the fullest. 

5 Unless there's some settlement that is 

6 nominal. But at this point that hasn't been 

7 proposed by the Administrator. 

8 JUDGE RAWALD: Understood. 

9 MR. BOBERTZ: We've had some 

10 offerings, we've exchanged some offerings back 

11 and forth some time ago. Gosh, probably over a 

12 year ago at this point. 

13 But I would agree that I don't think 

14 we were, we're close, you know. I would never 

15 say never. But it looks like we're pretty far 

16 apart. 

17 JUDGE RAWALD: Okay. And once again, 

18 Mr. Bobertz, of course, remind your client this 

19 will be an expensive proposition that will last 

20 most of the days, and will include flying all of 

21 

22 

us to Hawaii at this point. But I understand 

that the, you know, where folks are. 

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And so, I 

(202) 234-4433 
1 

2 

-- -- -- ----------- . --3-

4 

5 

6 

7 

8 

9 

10 

11 

12 

13 

14 

15 

16 

17 

18 

19 

20 

21 

22 

33 

get that. 

Okay. Let's turn then to one other 

··--is-sue--I--wa-nt--tO--go-ov.er-r---tha-t--was--r:a.i.s.ed-at--least 

partially by what was discussed here. And that's 

the fact there were some death threats to at 

least Mr. Feldman's client, in his opinion. 

Is there a safety issue then that we 

have to be concerned about for this hearing. Is 

there any concern with that, Mr. Feldman? 

MR. FELDMAN: Say that again? 

JUDGE RAWALD: Do you believe there to 

be a safety issue for the hearing? I mean, is 

there any concern here that the witnesses and 

your client will have any sort of safety 

concerns? 

MR. FELDMAN: I don ' t know. I don't 

know the guy that shot the video. I know his 

father. But I don't know him. But I know he's 

made slashing marks across his throat. And 

they've been reported to the FAA and the FBI. I 

don't know what was done with them. But he's 

posted stuff on Facebook with threats in it. 

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1 And if any, if I were concerned about 

2 anybody, I'd be concerned about him, and the 

----------- ------:0-- -- ---sa-f-e-t-Y---O-f--e¥e-:t::yboGl-Y:--in-t-he-Gou-r-t-:t::oom,-i-f--somebody------ --

4 decides something against him, or if he perceives 

5 that somebody did. That's my biggest concern. 

6 And, Don, what do you think? 

7 JUDGE RAWALD : Let me just weigh in 

8 before Mr. Bobertz's response. I guess my 

9 concern is, do you feel like your cross10 examination will be inhibited at all because of 

11 these safety concerns? Or do you feel like 

12 you'll be able to do a full and fair cross13 examination of this gentleman? 

14 MR. FELDMAN: I'm going to do my best. 

15 I can't predict the future. But, you know, I'm 

16 not going to pull any punches because I'm worried 

17 about him. And it wouldn't be the first time a 

18 witness scared me. But I intend to try to fully 

19 develop the issues that surround his credibility. 

20 JUDGE RAWALD: Okay. And Mr. Bobertz? 

21 MR. BOBERTZ: Yes. I 've spoken to 

22 this, it would be our witness, main witness 

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1 actually who took the video. He happens to be a 

2 competitor of the company that Mr. Feldman's 

----- -- __ ] - -representi-ng-.----So Ir-appar:ently _thiS---competi-tion------

4 has been going on for years. 

5 And so, he felt like his company was 

6 grounding their planes when the other company was 

7 operating their planes. And it wasn't fair, 

8 because they were losing business to the other 

9 company. So he took videos. 

10 And there was a lot of hostility 

11 apparently between the companies. And, you know, 

12 granted he made some inappropriate remarks, and 

13 Facebook posts that would appear threatening, you 

14 know. There's no doubt about that. He was 

15 inappropriate. 

16 So I hate to give a layman's opinion 

17 on safety of people from this, especially when 

18 I've talked to him he seems like a reasonable 

19 individual. But yet, he's posted things that 

20 aren't reasonable. So, I'd hesitate to say 

21 whether it's a safety concern or not. I just 

22 don't know. 

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1 MR. FELDMAN: And there's really no 

2 way to keep his company from doing the same thing 

------- ----- ---- -3------- --- tohatc--re-porsedly-,---And--the--v-iaeo---is -ac-S-ua-11-y--taken 

4 from the top. So it's easy to see they went 

5 through clouds. Mr. Bobertz, I sent you that. 

6 And you're not settled. 

7 I think his motivation is not safety, 

8 it's knocking out the competition. And, you 

9 know, I've never met him. Mr. Bobertz has met 

10 him, as it were. The inspector has met him. And 

11 maybe they would have a better idea of whether or 

12 not we have a security issue here. 

13 JUDGE RAWALD: Okay. Well, my 

14 intention is to get space from a federal 

15 courthouse there, which should hopefully help 

16 minimize any sort of issue with safety. But I 

17 will keep this on our minds as we move closer to 

18 trial. 

19 I do want to make sure that all 

20 parties feel comfortable putting on their case as 

21 appropriate, without a fear that somebody may act 

22 out in an inappropriate manner. But I will keep 

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1 that in mind. I'll think about this further as 

2 we get closer to hearing. 

-------------------:3--------------0ka'f-.---Now-~-the-hea-r-i-ng--date- -i-tse1 f 

4 will depend in part upon things outside my 

5 control, namely the ability to get the 

6 courthouse. And so, you folks have proposed some 

7 dates. 

8 I can say that the first date, the 

9 October date will not work for me. I do want to 

10 explore with you the options that you have in 

11 December further. If you folks are able to pull 

12 up your calendar at this point? Is that, are you 

13 able to do that, Mr. Feldman and Mr. Bobertz? 

14 MR. BOBERTZ: I can. Yes. 

15 MR. FELDMAN: Yes. Let's see. Okay. 

16 Yes, I have December. 

17 JUDGE RAWALD: Okay. So the week of 

18 December 12th through 16th, and the 19th through 

19 23rd. Are you folks available then as well at 

20 all, or no? 

21 MR. FELDMAN: Yes. Those work, those 

22 would work for me. 

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1 MR. BOBERTZ: The week of the --

2 MR. FELDMAN: The 12th through the 

3 16th is good .. 

4 JUDGE RAWALD: The 12th through 16th 

5 will work for Mr. Feldman. Mr. Bobertz, how 

6 about you? 

7 MR. BOBERTZ: That would work for me 

8 as well. The 19th, the week of the 19th would be 

9 difficult. 

10 JUDGE RAWALD: Okay. So difficult 

11 means it won' t happen. That's fine with me. 

12 Okay. 

13 MR. BOBERTZ: Yes. It's, the kids are 

14 off of school, so 

15 JUDGE RAWALD: I understand 

16 completely. I have one myself. So, okay. So 

17 the 12th through the 16th might be a player here. 

18 And if I were forced to because of scheduling 

19 reasons, push it to January, what does the 

20 January calendar look for folks? 

21 MR. FELDMAN: I don't have my January 

22 calendar, so I can't tell you that at this point. 

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1 But we can look into it and give you some dates. 

2 And, Don, if you want to coordinate with me. 

.. -3 -MR. BOBERTZ: Sure. 

4 JUDGE RAWALD: I mean, we get it. I 

5 don't want you guys to look at me if you don't 

6 have to. I will do my best to try to see if we 

7 can secure space those first two weeks of 

8 December. 

9 I think it's more likely to work that 

10 second week of December that we just discussed, 

11 will be the best week for me. But I will try to 

12 do both. 

13 And then, if I have a need for 

14 additional calendars, then I will issue an order 

15 asking for folks to submit additional calendar 

16 dates for me. But I don't want you to worry 

17 about it now if you don't have to. Okay? 

18 MR. FELDMAN: Okay. 

19 MR. BOBERTZ: Okay. 

20 JUDGE RAWALD: So I will do my best to 

21 work here logistically to make sure we secure a 

22 hearing date of some sort. And once we have that 

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1 hearing site obtained, and a date set, that will 

2 drive the remaining dates, as far as the motions 

3 -filed.- and when they're due, when the exhibits 

4 will be due to me. 

5 So okay. That's all the issues that 

6 I had, that I wanted to go through. Mr. Bobertz, 

7 do you have anything else you want to discuss 

8 while we're on the call together? 

9 MR. BOBERTZ: No. I just, I was, 

10 except I was looking again at the civil penalty. 

11 And it looks like if I'm counting right I've got 

12 six flights. One on, the first one on December 

13 8th, then January 5th, then three on March 22nd, 

14 and one on March 25th. 

15 So it looks like a total of six at 

16 $11,000 a flight would have been $66,000. So I'm 

17 not sure why. I must have miscounted when I did 

18 it, or something, where I came up with I think 

19 $55,000. 

20 But what we did is, we originally had 

21 one. We combined, two cases combined. So I'd 

22 have to go back and look in more detail at my 

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1 notes. But it looks like I might have 

2 miscounted. I didn't have my calculator when I 

3 wasadding the flightsapparently, fromfiveto4 

5 JUDGE RAWALD: Might I refer you to 

6 Page 2 of the complaint, Paragraph 4. So, March 

7 25th you allege there are three flights carrying 

8 skydivers? 

9 MR. BOBERTZ: Right. 

10 JUDGE RAWALD: And so, on March 22nd 

11 you have three flights carrying skydivers? On 

12 Paragraph 3. I count eight. 

13 MR. BOBERTZ: This is why I left 

14 engineering and went to law, because I can't 

15 count apparently. 

16 MR . FELDMAN: Gee, I did the same 

17 thing. 

18 JUDGE RAWALD: What I see is Paragraph 

19 1, one flight on December 18th. Paragraph 2, one 

20 flight on January 5th. Paragraph 3, three 

21 flights on March 22nd. And Paragraph 4, three 

22 flights on March 25th. 

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1 MR. BOBERTZ: Right. 

2 JUDGE RAWALD: I was hoping --

3 MR. BOBERTZ: I see that now. So I 

4 will have to It looks like, as usual, we were 

5 conservative in the penalty, based on the number 

6 of flights. 

7 JUDGE RAWALD : I don ' t know if Mr. 

8 Feldman would agree with you with that. 

9 MR. BOBERTZ: I'm sure he won't. 

10 MR. FELDMAN: No comment, Your Honor. 

11 JUDGE RAWALD: Okay, sir. Okay. 

12 MR. BOBERTZ: But I'll, of course, I 

13 could get back to you shortly with the details on 

14 that. Or if you need them before the hearing, on 

15 the details of how we came up with that. 

16 JUDGE RAWALD: I don't think so. At 

17 the hearing I certainly will be asking you 

18 questions about the number, and why that number 

19 is the appropriate number. 

20 So, just so you folks know, I will be 

21 asking you both questions. I do want to make 

22 sure I understand the pleadings, I understand 

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1 what's going on. 

2 So I will be asking you both questions 

3 at points through the hearing to understand what 

4 we ' re doing, and how things are going. And 

5 that's important for me to do that. 

6 Okay. So, Mr. Feldman, do you have 

7 any questions for me? Anything else you want to 

8 bring up? This is your chance to --

9 MR. FELDMAN : No, Your Honor. No. 

10 Not at this time. 

11 JUDGE RAWALD: Okay. So what I will 

12 do then is I will issue a report based on this 

13 pre-hearing conference we held today, summarizing 

14 all the issues. 

15 Then I will work to try to secure a 

16 site for us to have a hearing on the dates that 

17 you told me that you're available in November or 

18 December. And those October dates will not work 

19 for me. And --

20 MR. FELDMAN: Your Honor, Your Honor, 

21 one more thing that I thought of. We will be, 

22 since this case is based on videos, there will be 

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1 videos that need to be shown. 

2 So there needs to be some provision 

3 for a system to play, I assume DVDs or tape, or 

4 whatever the original format of the evidence is. 

5 And a way to project that so that Your Honor can 

6 see it, and the attorneys can see it, and the 

7 witness. 

8 JUDGE RAWALD: Right. Because you're 

9 going to want the witness to actually talk about 

10 the video, you're saying? 

11 MR. FELDMAN: Yes. 

12 JUDGE RAWALD: So, okay. So we '11 

13 make sure we do that. Okay. 

14 MR. FELDMAN: And also, since it's a 

15 federal courthouse, are there any restrictions on 

16 bringing our laptops in? 

17 JUDGE RAWALD: Well, so I will find 

18 out, and I will let you know. So --

19 MR. FELDMAN: Okay. Because that's 

2 o going to be essential that we be able to bring 

21 them in. And we're officers of the court. So, 

22 you know, yes. 

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1 JUDGE RAWALD: I haven't been to the 

2 federal courthouse in Honolulu. But what I can 

3 tell you is my experience in the past has been 

4 that attorneys and the judge --

5 Because I also use a laptop. I type 

6 while we talk, because I think it's better than 

7 handwriting. Will be necessary. So I'll make 

8 sure that's allowable before we agree to the 

9 space. But these are all matters we need to work 

10 out to make sure we can have the hearing take 

11 place in an orderly fashion. 

12 MR. FELDMAN: Okay. 

13 JUDGE RAWALD : Anything else? Mr. 

14 Bobertz, have you had any experience in Honolulu 

15 at all? Have you gone there for any hearings 

16 before? 

17 MR. BOBERTZ: I have. It was maybe 

18 about a year ago. And that was no issue to bring 

19 in our laptops. 

20 JUDGE RAWALD: Okay. And did you have 

21 it at the federal courthouse? 

22 

(202) 234-4433 

MR. BOBERTZ: I did, yes, I did. 

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1 JUDGE RAWALD: Okay. And were there 

2 any audio visual 

3 MR. FELDMAN: All right. You did. 

4 JUDGE RAWALD : And were there audio 

5 visual facilities to show videos and those kinds 

6 of things there as well? 

7 MR. BOBERTZ: I don't know. We didn't 

8 need it in that case. So it wasn't an issue. 

9 JUDGE RAWALD: Okay. And that was 

10 with Judge Goodwin you were with at that hearing? 

11 MR. BOBERTZ: I'm sorry? 

12 JUDGE RAWALD: Was that with Judge 

13 Goodwin, that hearing that you did out there? 

14 MR. BOBERTZ: Yes. Yes. It was I 

15 think three in one week we did. And we didn 't 

16 have any audio visual stuff for any of them. But 

17 always I've had my laptop on there. And that was 

18 not an issue. 

19 JUDGE RAWALD: And right now I don't 

20 plan on backing this case with anything else. I 

21 think it's busy enough that we can do this case 

22 by itself, without having to, the need to forcing 

(202) 234-4433 

NEAL R. GROSS 

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 
47 

1 other cases in the timeframe. So, just so you 

2 know, Mr. Bobertz, it's not my intention to try 

3 to make you have, be overworked in oneweek. 

4 MR. BOBERTZ: Appreciate that. 

5 MR. FELDMAN: It's the only I have, 

6 Your Honor. So I won't be overworked. 

7 JUDGE RAWALD : Okay. Anything else 

8 for us to discuss? One last chance, Mr. Bobertz? 

9 MR. BOBERTZ: No, Your Honor. 

10 JUDGE RAWALD: Okay. Mr. Feldman? 

11 MR. FELDMAN: Nothing, Your Honor. 

12 JUDGE RAWALD: Okay. Well then, thank 

13 you both for your time today. I really 

14 appreciate it. And I also appreciate your 

15 candor. And frankly, I really appreciate the 

16 fact that you're able to be so cooperative with 

17 one another leading up to this matter. 

18 So, not all the cases I have are 

19 people being so cooperative. But I certainly 

20 agree with the fact, appreciate the fact that you 

21 are working together where possible to resolve 

22 these issues. Okay. 

(202) 234-4433 

NEAL R. GROSS 

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., NW. 

WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 
48 

1 MR. FELDMAN: Well, Your Honor, we're 

2 colleagues. We're not enemies. People forget 

3 that in this profession, unfortunately. 

4 JUDGE RAWALD: I agree. And I've been 

5 on all sides of things, defense, prosecution, and 

6 the Government. So I feel like everyone, and 

7 judging. So I feel like it's good for all our 

8 members to be civil. So, thank you both. 

9 MR. FELDMAN: Thank you, Your Honor. 

10 MR. BOBERTZ: All right. Thank you. 

11 JUDGE RAWALD : Now we'll go off the 

12 call. Thank you very much. We're off the 

13 record. 

14 (Whereupon, the above-entitled matter 

15 went off the record at 3:42 p.m.) 

16 

17 

18 

19 

20 

21 

22 

(202) 234-4433 

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COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE .• NW. 

WASHINGTON. D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 
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preference 12:13 13:11 

13:18 14:3 

Present2:17 

pretty 32:15 

prior 4:21 

probably 5:6 6:22 7:15 

10:411:1115:4 24:19 

32:11 

problem 4:7 5:20 28:9 

32:1 

produced 26:20 

profession 48:3 

project 44:5 

prompt3:14 

proposed 4:21 32:7 

37:6 

proposition 32:19 

prosecution 48:5 

prove 18:20 19:9 

provide 11:7 

provided 23:5 26:18 

Providing 5:12 

provision 44:2 

pull16:7 34:16 37:11 

punches 34:16 

purpose 28:12 

purposes 18:2 

pursuant 1:12 

push3:197:11,22 

38:19 

put 16:18 22:9 25:20 

28:4 

putting 8:16 28:5 36:20 

Q,.___ 

qualified 24:6 

question 3:14 22:6,12 

27:12,21 

questions 25:16 42:18 

42:21 43:2,7 

quotation 28:21 

R 

R112:19 13:2 

raise 22:15 30:10,13 

raised 33:3 

RAWALD 1:18 3:3 4:3 

4:15,18 5:7,11,17 6:1 

6:7,15,18 7:3,5,11 8:2 

8:219:1,6,1710:6,10 

10:12,16,1911:3,6,13 

11:1812:4,11,2213:9 

13:16 14:2 15:1,11 

16:1617:918:7,12,19 

www.nealrgross.com 
19:2,7,15,21 20:8,12 

20:14,21 21:6 22:7,22 

24:1125:11,18,22 

27:6 28:8 29:5 30:6,9 

31:5 32:8,17 33:11 

34:7,20 36:13 37:17 

38:4,10,15 39:4,20 

41:5,10,18 42:2,7,11 

42:16 43:11 44:8,12 

44:17 45:1,13,20 46:1 

46:4,9,12,19 47:7,10 

47:12 48:4,11 

real15:12 

realistic 25:17 

really 13:1114:8 15:15 

23:20 29:19,21 36:1 

47:13,15 

reason 5:16 12:6 

reasonable 35:18,20 

reasons 38:19 

recall17:5 

receive 5:8 

received 10:7 

record 13:14 48:13,15 

refer 41:5 

referring 17:1 

regarding 27:16 

regulation 16:22 

regulations 18:13 

reliability 22:2,13 

remaining 40:2 

remarks 35:12 

remember 12:21 

remind 32:18 

reply 6:10 

report8:16 43:12 

reported 33:20 

reportedly 36:3 

reporter 3:11 

representing 3:8 35:3 

request 5:18 14:20 

requested 30:21 

requests 10:7 

required 24:7 

requirements 24:8 

requires 18:16 

reserve 15:8 

reserving 14:20 

residual20:7,9 

resolution 16:11 

resolve 26:12 47:21 

resolving 7:17 

respond 5:9 

respondent 1 :6 2:8 

12:15 13:2 

respondent's 3:10 

response 5:5 6:11 8:11 

34:8 

(202) 234-4433 

responses 5:3 8:6 

responsibility 21 :20 

restrictions 44:15 

result 32:2 

right 12:4 14:20 15:8 

17:218:11,17 20:17 

40:1141:9 42:144:8 

46:3,19 48:10 

ring 3:20 

road 24:21 

Robert2:9,10 3:9 10:14 

rule4:11 

s 

S.W 2:11 

safety33:7,12,14 34:3 

34:11 35:17,21 36:7 

36:16 

save 28:5 

saw 17:10 

saying 44:10 

scared 34:18 

schedule 7:19 25:10 

26:6 

scheduling 4:19 38:18 

school 38:14 

second21:13 39:10 

secure 39:7,21 43:15 

security 36:12 

see 14:18 29:9 30:10 

36:4 37:15 39:6 41:18 

42:3 44:6,6 

send 29:8 

sending 10:21 

sent 31:2 36:5 

services21:15,16 23:7 

23:12 

set 40:1 

settle 32:1 

settled 36:6 

settlement 31:15,16 

32:5 

sharing 9:10 

shortly 15:10 42:13 

shot 33:17 

show6:21 23:1 46:5 

showing 23:9,22 

shown 44:1 

shows 27:2 31:1 

side6:11,1414:13 26:1 

30:1,11,14 

sides 16:10 48:5 

Sikes2:19 3:12 

simply 20:16 

Simultaneous 11:22 

sir 12:22 13:20 21:9 

42:11 

site 40:1 43:16 

sitting 15:21 

six40:12,15 

sketch 19:8 

sky 27:1 

skydivers 41 :8,11 

skydiving 1:5 3:4 21:19 

23:17 27:14 28:2,7 

slashing 33:19 

sole5:13 

somebody 19:13,17,18 

23:15 34:3,5 36:21 

somewhat 25:4 

sooner 10:5 16:6 

sorry8:810:1346:11 

sort31:16 33:14 36:16 

39:22 

sounds8:20 11:5 31:19 

space 36:14 39:7 45:9 

speak3:15,21 

speaking 11:22 

spoken 34:21 

spot 16:19 

stack 10:22 

staff 5:14 

standard 3:6 23:10 24:3 

STATES 1:1 

status 23:21 24:2 30:18 

stipulate 27:5,10,17 

2820 

stipulating 29:10 

stipulation 29:7 

stipulations 26:10 

stuff 18:16 33:22 46:16 

subject 22:5 

submit 14:4,9 27:7 

39:15 

subparagraph 18:15,16 

subpoena 10:6 

subpoenas 9:14 

substantive 16:17 

sufficient5:8 6:12,14 

9:1911:14 26:8 

Suite 2:12 

summarize 4:1,4 

summarizing 8:17 

43:13 

summary30:17 31:10 

31:13 

supplied 10:20 

support 5:14 

sure3:15 7:6,1413:15 

16:13 36:19 39:3,21 

40:17 42:9,22 44:13 

45:8,10 

surround 34:19 

system44:3 

T 

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. 

Washington DC 

53 

take 25:6,8 26:8 29:13 

30:2 45:10 

taken 22:3 36:3 

talk 5:19 25:2 44:9 45:6 

talked 35:18 

talking8:713:1316:17 

tape 44:3 

teleconference 1:12 

telephonic 4:22 6:19 

8:5,12,14 

tell16:21 38:22 45:3 

testimony 23:6,9 26:10 

26:20,22 

thank 7:10 47:12 48:8,9 

48:10,12 

thing 14:21 27:9 36:2 

41:17 43:21 

things 7:13 16:12 24:19 

29:20 35:19 37:4 43:4 

46:6 48:5 

think5:10 6:11,13,17 

15:8,19 16:2,9 17:6 

17:20,21 18:2,8 24:3 

25:6,8, 12, 16,17 26:3 

26:19 27:4,10,12,20 

29:6,18 30:4 31:4,8 

31:17,22 32:13 34:6 

36:7 37:1 39:9 40:18 

42:16 45:6 46:15,21 

thinking 11:10 25:8 

third 24:6 

thought 14:11 43:21 

threatening 35:13 

threats 28:15 33:5,22 

three 17:14 25:9,10,12 

25:1640:1341:7,11 

41:20,21 46:15 

throat 33:19 

thumbnail19:8 

time 3:6,15,18 4:12 5:2 

6:5,9 7:6 9:2011:11 

16:7,11 26:7 27:5 

28:5 30:7 32:11 34:17 

43:10 47:13 

timeframe 4 7:1 

timeline 26:3 

today27:7 43:13 47:13 

told 4:6 43:17 

top 36:4 

total18:8 40:15 

totality 15:17 

totally 31:19 

track 8:18 

Transportation 1:1 

2:20 

traveling 5:15 

trial14:7,19 25:5 36:18 

try 7:6 8:3 26:1 ,5 34:18 

www. nealrgross.com 
39:6,1143:15 47:2 

trying 3:20 

Tuesday 1:8 

turn4:1916:17 21:6 

311533:2 

turned 14:7 

two 15:13,1917:11,13 

17:18 19:22 20:5 25:9 

25:17 39:7 40:21 

type 45:5 

u 

u.s 1:19 

unaware 21:11 

underlying 31:9 

understand 4:5 14:15 

15:12 16:16,19 21:3 

27:15 31:13 32:21 

38:15 42:22,22 43:3 

Understanding 9:6 

Understood 19:21 

25:22 32:8 

unfortunately 48:3 

UNITED 1:1 

unnecessary 26:4 

unopposed 31:3 

use 12:14,15 45:5 

useful15: 13,20 

usual42:4 

v ___ _ venue4:7,7 

versus 13:22 

video 28:10 33:17 35:1 

36:3 44:10 

videos26:17,19 28:19 

29:4 35:9 43:22 44:1 

46:5 

videotaped 19:14 

view5:18 22:3 

viewed 20: 16 

violated 20:5 

violation 17:18,19 

19:22 20:3,22 21:2 

violations 16:22 17:5,7 

17:21 18:10 20:17 

visual46:2,5, 16 

w 

waiting 16:10 

43:7 44:9 

wanted 13:1 30:10 40:6 

wants 30:2 

wasn't 12:7 17:16 35:7 

46:8 

way6:611:1812:19 

13:12 23:14 36:2 44:5 

ways 29:18 

we'll6:19 8:512:915:1 

15:22 16:1,2 44:12 

48:11 

we're 3:7 13:13,14 

21:17 23:16,16 24:18 

26:5,17 29:19 30:16 

31:22 32:14,15 40:8 

43:444:2148:1,2,12 

we've23:4 32:9,10 

week 37:17 38:1,8 

39:10,1146:1547:3 

weeks 39:7 

weigh 34:7 

went 36:4 41:14 48:15 

Whichever 13:9 

wholly 18:13 

witness 9:11 22:3,14 

34:18,22,22 44:7,9 

witnessed 19:10,14 

witnesses 9:2 19:4,4,5 

25:3,15,19 26:13 

29:14 33:13 

Wonderful4: 18 6:18 

work8:19 10:1711:1,4 

37:9,21,22 38:5,7 

39:9,21 43:15,18 45:9 

worked 27:3 

working 7:17 47:21 

works 11:2,1612:15 

13:2 

worried 34:16 

worry 39:16 

wouldn't 6:3 25:8 34:17 

write 14:14 29:8 

writing 16:5 

X 

Y __ _ 

year 32:12 45:18 

years 35:4 

want 3:17 5:2,4 6:10 Z 

7:14,21 9:3,18,19 zones 24:4 

11:1112:113:1214:3 

107th2:11 

1099 23:5 

1099s 23:22 

11,000 21:1,2 40:16 

12th 37:18 38:2,4,17 

1417:1 

155:6,8 8:4,13,14 

15000 2:5 

16th 37:18 38:3,4,17 

17 1:9 

17th 3:5 

18th 17:12 41:19 

19th 37:18 38:8,8 

···-'"2~--- 241:6,19 

2016 1:9 3:5 

203 2:12 

22nd 17:3,14 40:13 

41:10,21 

23rd 3719 

24th 17:14 

25th 17:4 40:14 41:7,22 

___ 3 

341:12,20 

3:001:13 3:6 

3:02 3:2 

3:42 48:15 

304:22 6:8 7:15 8:5,12 

9:5,1110:3,7,11,15 

11:10,13,14,16 

305-598-48412:14 

310-725-3454 2:6 

33176 2:13 

441:6,21 

458:7,11 

4 __ _ 

5 

55,000 20:15 21:3 40:19 

5th 17:3,12 40:13 41:20 

6 

60 4:21 

66,000 40:16 

7 ___ _ 

75 8:10 

8 

8900 2:11 

14:8,13,1515:1716:4 0 -- 8th 17:3 40:13 

16:12,18 21:2 26:2 

27:13 28:13 29:17 1 

30:12 33:3 36:19 37:9 141:19 

39:2,5,16 40:7 42:21 105.1717:1 

90261 2:5 

91-13 20:7 

9 

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. 

(202) 234-4433 Washington DC 

54 

www.nealrgross.com 
C E R T I F I C A T E 

This is to certify that the foregoing transcript 

In the matter of: Pacific International 

Skydiving Center 

Before: DOT/OH 

Date: 05-17-16 

Place: teleconference 

was duly recorded and accurately transcribed under 

my direction; further, that said transcript is a 

true and accurate record of the proceedings. 

Court Reporter 

55 

(202) 2344433 

NEAL R. GROSS 

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE, NW. 

WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com