UNITED STATES OF AMERICA DEPARTMENT OF TRANSPORTATION OFFICE OF HEARINGS 2-1 

# RECEIV D

IN THE MATTER OF 

### JAN 132015 

### HEARING DOCKET AERO MICRONESIA, FDMS NO. FAA-2012-0468 FAA-2012-0469 Respondent. Volume 2 Tuesday, December 2, 2014 Courtroom 8 U.S. District Court House 300 Ala Moana Blvd. Honolulu, Hawaii The above-entitledmatter came on for hearing, pursuant to notice, at 8:16a.m. BEFORE: THE HONORABLE RICHARD C. GOODWIN, Administrative Law Judge

(202) 234-4433 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERSANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLANDAVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433APPEARANCES: On Behalf of the**Complainan~** DON BOBERTZ, ESQ. of: Federal Aviation Administration Western-Pacific Region Office of Regional Counsel AWP-7.7 P.O. Box 92007 Los Angeles, CA 90009-2007 (310) 725-3454 don.bobertz®faa.gov On Behalf of the**Responden~** MICHAEL QUINN, pro se of: Aero Micronesia 156 Diablo Road Suite 203 Danville, CA 94526 (925) 362-4430 mikeguinn1@earthlink.net

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(202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERSANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISlANDAVE.• N.W. WASHINGTON. D.C. 20005·3701 (202) 234·44332-3 TABLE OF CONTENTS WITNESS DIRECT CROSS REDIRECT RECROSS Clarence Kanae Michael R. Quinn 14 62 133 38 90 144 159 167 OPENING STATEMENTS Complainant Respondent EXHIBITS Administrator's A-1 FOTM 3/11/10 A-2 Quinn letter A-3 Manual Control Document A-4 Timeline Graph A-5 Inspector's Statement A-6 Tan Holdings Website A-7 Sanction Guidance A-8 A-9 A-10 A-ll Judicial Notice FAA Legal Interpretation Proficiency Report Summary (Holmes) Proficiency Report Respondent's R-l R-2 R-3 R-4 FAA Legal Interpretation Historical Records Enforcement Data Resling Letter

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MARK 20/67 20/67 25/67 25/73 35/83 25/84 32/86 34/87 151/176 151/176 151/176

47/106 54/119 126 190

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106 190

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1 P-R-0-C-E-E-D-I-N-G-S 2 8:16 a.m. 3 JUDGE GOODWIN: This is the case of 4 Aero Micronesia, FAA Case 2012-0469. 5 Counsel, will you identify yourself 6 for the record, please? 7 MR. BOBERTZ: Yes, Your Honor. 8 Don Bobertz, Counsel for the 9 Administrator. 10 JUDGE GOODWIN: Mr. Quinn? 11 MR. QUINN: I'm Mike Quinn from Asia 12 Pacific Airlines. 13 JUDGE GOODWIN: Mr. BOBERTZ, I got the 14 emails that you sent me that had the complaints. 15 I'll take a look at them later, but I did get 16 them at the office. 17 Just so you know, I have

-- you know, 18 I telecommute a lot, so I have trouble sometimes 19 reading the emails at the office. I, typically, 20 forward them to my personal email, which I did, 21 but I'll take a look at them. 22 Mr. Bobertz, did you want to make an

(202) 234·4433 NEALR. GROSS COURT REPORTERSANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLANDAVE., NW WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-44332-5 1 opening statement? 2 MR. BOBERTZ: Briefly, Your Honor. 3 Thank you. 4 The evidence in this case will show 5 that the Flight Operations Training Manual that 6 Aero Micronesia maintained at its training 7 facility in Sanford, Florida, was four revisions 8 behind, or 22 months out of date, and that the 9 general operating manual that Aero Micronesia 10 maintained at its training facility was one 11 revision behind, also 22 months out of date. 12 And, based on these facts, the 13 Respondent violated FAR 121.137 (a), which 14 requires that a certificateholder furnish manual 15 changes in addition to its personnel. 16 We will call FAA Aviation Safety 17 Inspector Clarence Kanae to testify. Inspector 18 Kanae discovered the outdated manuals during an 19 investigation at Aero Micronesia's training 20 facility in Florida. 21 22

(202) 234-4433 Thank you, Your Honor. JUDGE GOODWIN: Mr. Quinn, did you want

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1 to make an opening now, or do you want to reserve 2 until your case? It's up to you. 3 MR. QUINN: I'm sorry, sir. Could you 4 say that again? 5 JUDGE GOODWIN: You can make an opening 6 statement now, or you can procedurally, the 7 Respondent can make one right after the FAA 8 talks, or they can do it before your case. It 9 doesn't make any difference to the Court. 10 MR. QUINN: I would like to make an 11 opening statement. 12 JUDGE GOODWIN: Okay. 13 MR. QUINN: The period of time during 14 which this particular event occurred, late 15 December and the first half of 2011, which was a 16 very difficult one for Asia Pacific Airlines, I 17 had been having a lot of trouble dealing with the 18 Honolulu Office. I'm referring to the 19 Certificate Management Office, and our 20 inspectors, because they had taken some actions 21 against the airline that were found to be untrue, 22 falsely charged.

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.. N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-44332-7 1 MR. BOBERTZ: Objection. Argument. 2 Relevance. 3 MR. QUINN: And so, I had hired

-- 4 JUDGE GOODWIN: I'm going to give him 5 some latitude with this. 6 MR. QUINN: I had hired a former 7 FAA inspector named Bob Resling to become the 8 Vice President of Operations for my airline, to 9 help get some of this stuff straightened out. 10 And, we were well on the way to doing 11 that, particularly, with the TrainingDepartment, 12 because the Training Department had been going 13 through a transition ln Florida. We had hired 14 another company to do it. That company resigned, 15 and so we were in the process of changing over to 16 having an internal FAA-approved program. 17 The former FAA Airlines Inspectorthat 18 I had hired died suddenly in his sleep on 19 December 1, 2010, and I notified the FAA of this, 20 and I calledMr.

-- Inspector Kanae and said that 21 I would like for him to call off his trip to 22 Florida, in particular, because there was no

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.. N.W WASHINGTON. D.C. 20005·3701 (202) 234·44332-8 1 training going on. You know, there was no FAA, 2 or there was no Asia Pacific personnel in Florida 3 at the time. 4 I was completely tied up with the 5 death of my Vice President, Bob Resling. 6 Inspector Kanae decided that he was going to make 7 this trip anyway, and as a courtesy I had my 8 training person drive 40 miles to meet him. 9 And, I might add that, you know, this 10 was a courtesy meeting between our airline and 11 the FAA, to help them get through some ATOS 12 questions, which at the time they were pushing on 13 our airline, a failed program that subsequently 14 has been dropped by the FAA. 15 At any rate, when Inspector Kanae met 16 with Mr. Gazda, our trainingperson, he requested 17 to see the manuals. He didn't mention that he 18 wanted to see these manuals prior to Mr. Gazda 19 driving 40 miles to meet him at an off-site 20 facility. And so, Mr. Gazda was able to get a 21 hold of somebody that lived near his home and 22 asked him to retrieve the documents from his

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.. N.W WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-44332-9 1 garage, where they were stored. 2 That was done, and the manuals turned 3 out to be deficient. On queryingMr. Gazda later 4 on, it was determined that he had all of the 5 revisions in question. They were in the bottom of 6 a box in his garage. 7 And so, I discussed this with 8 Clarence, and everyone involved. We communicated 9 with him, I guess, by phone and email, and he 10 decided to press on with this case. 11 And so, from a moral point of view, we 12 just think that this was over the top. He didn't 13 give us any slack whatsoever. There was 14 absolutely no training going on. These manuals 15 were never used during the process of training. 16 We provided sufficientevidenceto the 17 FAA that we, in fact, met the requirement of the 18 FAR that they cited, by producing documents which 19 are part of this case saying that we had sent the 20 revisions to the manuals in this case to Mr. 21 Gazda. 22 And then, they decided that they were

(202) 234-4433 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERSANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLANDAVE.• N.W. WASHINGTON. D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234·44332-10 1 going to change the charge. 2 MR. BOBERTZ: Objection, Your Honor. 3 I guess this is fine if we are going 4 to what we are really doing is testifying 5 here. And, at some point are we going to do this 6 and then testify again? 7 JUDGE GOODWIN: The Court is going to 8 consider this as opening argument, not testimony, 9 because he's not sworn. 10 Because he's pro se, we give some 11 latitude, you know. 12 Mr. Quinn, the purpose of the opening 13 statement is just to outline your case. I'11 14 allow you to give testimony later. 15 MR. QUINN: I'll wrap it up then. 16 I mean, after we demonstrated to Mr. 17 Bobertz that we had, in fact, sent the required 18 revisions to Mr. Gazda, he changed the charge to 19 a violation of 137(b) 137(b) clearly is 20 targeted directly towards the individuals, not 21 the company. 22 And, while I won't dispute that the

(202) 234-4433 NEALR. GROSS COURT REPORTERSANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLANDAVE., NW. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-44331 companyhas some obligationto make sure that its 2 employees have the proper manual, it's' 3 nevertheless, a fact that 137(b) is targeting 4 only the employees, and not the airlines. 5 And so, they flip flopped on the 6 charges. We think it's bogus, and for them to 7 have tried to shove this down our throat at that 8 particular time was completely inappropriate, in 9 our view. 10 So, I'm finished with my opening. 11 JUDGE GOODWIN: Mr

. Bobertz, do you 12 want to call your first witness? 13 MR. BOBERTZ: Thank you, Your Honor. 14 The Administrator calls Aviation 15 Safety Inspector Clarence Kanae. 16 JUDGE GOODWIN: Wouldyou come forward, 17 stand, and raise your right hand? 18 Whereupon, 19 CLARENCE KANAE 20 was called as a witness by the Complainant, and 21 having been first duly sworn, testified as 22 follows:

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1 JUDGE GOODWIN: Please be seated, and 2 state your name for the record, and spell your 3 first and last name. 4 MR. KANAE: My name is Clarence K. 5 Kanae, C-L-A-R-E-N-C-E, middle initial K, last 6 name K-A-N-A-E. 7 JUDGE GOODWIN: Counsel. 8 MR. BOBERTZ: Yes, Your Honor. 9 Yesterday we spoke about shortcutting 10 the background questions with Inspector Kanae, 11 and cutting and pasting from yesterday's hearing 12 to today's, because the information would be the 13 same. 14 JUDGE GOODWIN: Do you have any 15 objection, Mr. Quinn? What we are saying is, 16 rather than having him re-testify as to where he 17 works, and how long he's worked there, and what 18 not

-- 19 MR. QUINN: I have no problem. 20 JUDGE GOODWIN: Okay. So, I'm going to 21 instruct the court reporter, the foundational 22 testimony with respect to this witness, what we

(202) 234-4433 NEALR. GROSS COURT REPORTERSANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLANDAVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-44332-13 1 did in the prior case is make a statement in the 2 transcript saying, with the consent of the 3 parties the testimony taken on December 1, 2014, 4 which is foundational to the witness, will be 5 replicated, in other words, reproducedin here ln 6 full. 7 And then what we'll do, Mr. Quinn, 8 when you testify normally you would go through 9 the same sort of thing, and with your permission 10 we'll do the same for your qualifications. So, 11 you don't have to reiterate, you know, what your 12 educational background is and so forth. 13 MR. QUINN: I understand. 14 JUDGE GOODWIN: Okay. Have I confused 15 you enough, Cameron? 16 COURT REPORTER: I got it. 17 JUDGE GOODWIN: Okay, good. 18 Counsel? 19 [THE TESTIMONY OF CLARENCE K. KANAE TAKEN ON 20 12/01/14 IS REPRODUCED HEREIN IN ITS ENTIRETY BY 21 CONSENT OF THE PARTIES FOR JUDICIAL ECONOMY.] 22 DIRECT EXAMINATION

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1 MR. BOBERTZ: Thank you, Your Honor. 2 Inspector Kanae, can you tell me where you're 3 employed? 4 THE WITNESS: I'm employed with the 5 Federal Aviation Administration. And that's 6 located at 135 Nakolo Place, Honolulu, Hawaii. 7 BY MR. BOBERTZ: 8 Q And how long have you been employed 9 there? 10 A I've been employed with the Federal 11 Aviation Administration for 20 years. 12 Q Can you briefly describe for me your 13 aviation experience, both within and outside of 14 the FAA? 15 A Certainly. My aviation experience 16 startedback in 1968 when I learned how to fly as 17 a private pilot. And it progressed into the 18 militarywhen I enlisted into the warrant officer 19 helicopter flight training program back ln 1977. 20 I've spent ten years on active duty 21 and 32 years of Hawaii Army National Guard, 22 mainly as a helicopter pilot, and retired just

(202) 234-4433 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERSANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLANDAVE, N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-44332-15 1 recently in 2012 at the rank of CW4. 2 And for my civilian experience, I've 3 flown civilian helicopters and civilian aircraft 4 here in Hawaii. I also have 121 experience 5 flying for an air carrier here in Hawaii as well. 6 Total flight time is over 16,000 hours, 11,000 of 7 helicopters and the remaining fixed wing. 8 Q Thank you. And what is your current 9 position with the FAA? 10 A I'm currentlyassignedto overseeAsia 11 Pacific Airlines doing business as Aero 12 Micronesia, Inc. I'm the principal operations 13 inspector for this air carrier. 14 Q And can you briefly describe your job 15 duties? 16 A As a safety inspector, our duties and 17 responsibilities is quite, quite wide in scope. 18 Some of the duties, and I'll just name a few, is 19 to investigate action investigations, do 20 surveillance of air carriers, certification of 21 air carriers, and also certification of airmen. 22 I also am tasked to do inspections on

(202) 234-4433 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERSANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLANDAVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-44332-16 1 the air carrier that I have oversight of, and 2 surveillance as well on the air carrler that I am 3 assigned to oversee. 4 Q So you mention part of your duties 5 include inspection of air carriers, specifically 6 Aero Micronesia. Do you recall conducting an 7 inspection of Aero Micronesia on March 25th, 8 2011? 9 A Yes, I do. 10 Q What can you tell me about that 11 inspection? What type of inspection, what made 12 you conduct the inspection? 13 A On that day, there were three of us. 14 There was a team of three inspectors that had 15 oversight of this particular carrier. I'm the 16 operations inspector. There was Vickie Stahlberg 17 who was the maintenance inspector, and then the 18 avionics inspector Kahale Hoe. 19 All three of us did an unannounced 20 ramp inspection at the Honolulu International 21 Airport as an Asia Pacific aircraft came in from 22 Montreux.

(202) 234-4433 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERSANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLANDAVE., N.W WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-44331 JUDGE GOODWIN: Was that Kahale Hoe, 2 was that you need spelled? 3 COURT REPORTER: Yes. 4 JUDGE GOODWIN: Do you know how to 5 spell Kahale Hoe? 6 THE WITNESS: Yes. It's K-A-H-A-L-E, 7 H-0-E. Kahale Hoe. 8 JUDGE GOODWIN: Great, thank you. Go 9 ahead, Counsel. 10 MR. BOBERTZ: So the three of you went 11 to inspect Aero Micronesia, do a ramp inspection 12 that day. So how does that happen? You go, the 13 plane comes in, you go up to the plane, do you 14 tell them you're coming? 15 THE WITNESS: Yes. 16 BY MR. BOBERTZ: 17 Q Go ahead. 18 A What basically occurs is that all 19 three of us arrived at the ramp area where the 20 aircraft had already been parked, and started 21 being offloaded at the ramp area. So all three 22 of us have different specialties. So we actually

(202) 234-4433 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERSANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLANDAVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-44332-18 1 went in our own progression to do specific 2 inspections. 3 I went up to the cockpit to interview 4 the flight crew captain, first officer, and 5 flight engineer. There, I checked for their 6 currency of pilot certificates, medical 7 certificates. 8 I also looked at the flight logs and 9 weight manifest, and basically safety equipment 10 to make sure that the safety equipment 11 inspections were current. 12 Q Okay. And then what happened? 13 A As I was in the cockpit, I noticed 14 that the loading procedures had stopped. So I 15 inquired about why was the offloadirg of the 16 cargo ceased. 17 And so I approached the, I guess he 18 would be the cargo manager, the loader that was 19 in charge of all of the ground personnel. I 20 asked why are we all stopping to offload the 21 aircraft. 22 Q

(202) 234-4433 And his comment I'm sorry. And then so what did he

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1 say? 2 A His comment was well, we have a cargo 3 that's quite heavy, so we need to change the 4 loader equipment to handle this heavier cargo 5 that's going to be offloaded. 6 Q Okay. So were you back where he was 7 doing the offloadingat that time, or did you see 8 the cargo at that time? 9 A I did. I went back and I saw the 10 engine inside of the cabin. All the cargo 11 forward of the engine was offloaded already. So 12 all I could see was the engine on a stand on a 13 pallet ready to be offloaded. 14 Q Okay. And then what, did you notice 15 anything with the engine that concerned you? 16 A Yes. Took a photo of this particular 17 cargo, the engine itself. I noticed that the 18 engine in its entirety, to include the engine 19 stand was strapped to a LD7 pallet, which is what 20 we call, laymen's term, a cookie sheet pallet. 21 And it was only strapped and 22 configured to be loaded on that one particular

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1 cookie sheet pallet. And that pallet can only 2 fit on one actually, one actual position in the 3 aircraft. 4 Q And what's the problem with that? 5 A In comparisonto the loadmanifest, it 6 indicated that all the weights was transfer 7 across three zones. But in fact, the way it was 8 rigged was only secured and for shipment was for 9 one zone. 10 Q Your Honor, I have what's been marked 11 as Administrator's Exhibits A-1 and A-2. May I 12 approach? 13 (Whereupon, the above-referred to 14 documents were marked as Administrator'sExhibits 15 A-1 and A-2 for identification.) 16 JUDGE GOODWIN: Yes. Make sure Mr. 17 Quinn has a chance. 18 MR. BOBERTZ: And we discussed these 19 ahead of time, Your Honor, and we briefly talked 20 about foundation. But I think that we don't 21 believe Mr. Quinn has any objection to these 22 exhibits.

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1 JUDGE GOODWIN: Okay. 2 MR. BOBERTZ: I gave you two, correct? 3 JUDGE GOODWIN: Two different ones, 4 yes. 5 MR. BOBERTZ: InspectorKanae, I think 6 you mentioned earlier in your testimony about 7 seeing a manifest. Can you please tell me, do 8 you recognize Exhibit A-1? 9 THE WITNESS: Yes. Exhibit A-1 is an 10 Asia Pacific Airlines load planner weight 11 manifest. 12 MR. BOBERTZ: Okay. And is this one 13 of the documents you got from Aero Micronesia at 14 the time when you were doing the inspection? 15 THE WITNESS: Yes, that is correct. 16 MR. BOBERTZ: Your Honor, I offer 17 Administrator's Exhibit A-1 into evidence. 18 JUDGE GOODWIN: Any objection, Mr. 19 Quinn? 20 MR. QUINN: No. 21 JUDGE GOODWIN: Exhibit A-1 for 22 identification is received into evidence as A-1.

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1 (Whereupon, the above-referred to 2 document was received into evidence as 3 Administrator's Exhibit A-1.) 4 MR. BOBERTZ: And Inspector Kanae, do 5 you recognize Exhibit A-2? 6 THE WITNESS: Yes, I do. 7 MR. BOBERTZ: And what is that? 8 THE WITNESS: This is the actual 9 aircraft engine that was shipped that morning on 10 March 25th, 2011 on board the actual aircraft. 11 MR. BOBERTZ: Your Honor, I offer 12 Administrator's Exhibit A-2 into evidence. 13 JUDGE GOODWIN: Mr. Quinn, any 14 objection? Any objection, Mr. Quinn? 15 MR. QUINN: I'm sorry. I didn't hear. 16 JUDGE GOODWIN: Okay. 17 MR. QUINN: I have a little bit of a 18 hearing problem, too. 19 JUDGE GOODWIN: Okay. He offered 20 Exhibit 2 into evidence. Do you have any 21 objection? 22

(202) 234-4433 MR. QUINN: Oh, I do not.

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1 JUDGE GOODWIN: Okay. Exhibit 2 for 2 identification is received into evidence as 3 Agency Exhibit 2. 4 (Whereupon, the above-referred to 5 document was received into evidence as 6 Administrator's Exhibit A-2.) 7 MR. BOBERTZ: So Inspector Kanae, 8 looking at Administrator's Exhibit A-1, the load 9 planner weight manifest, can you summarize what 10 the significance of that document and what you 11 found? 12 THE WITNESS: Yes. 13 JUDGE GOODWIN: Just to clarify, are 14 we on 468 or 469, the case? 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 show that. 22

(202) 234·4433 MR. BOBERTZ: We are on 68. JUDGE GOODWIN: Okay, thank you. MR. BOBERTZ: So, Inspector Kanae JUDGE GOODWIN: Make sure MR. BOBERTZ: I'm sorry? JUDGE GOODWIN: Make sure your notes Go ahead. MR. BOBERTZ: So Administrator's

NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERSANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLANDAVE, N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005·3701 (202) 234·44332-24 1 Exhibit A-1, can you describe the significanceof 2 that document in summary? 3 THE WITNESS: Yes. What this 4 indicates is that one of the crew members 5 computed this weight and balance weight manifest. 6 And in Zone 8 it indicates that the engine in 7 question is at Zone 8, but distributed forward of 8 Zone 8 into Zone 7, and distributedweight aft of 9 Zone 8 into Zone 9. 10 And in fact, it's in conflict with 11 what I actually saw in the aircraft whereby the 12 engine was on one particularpallet that can only 13 be secured in one zone. 14 BY MR. BOBERTZ: 15 Q So that's in conflict with this 16 Exhibit A-1 that shows the load was spread across 17 three zones? 18 A Yes, sir. 19 Q So then what happened? 20 A So after I took a photo, myself and 21 the two other inspectors went to Continental 22 Shipping Warehouse and I approached the manager

(202) 234-4433 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERSANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLANDAVE, NW. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-44332-25 1 for the Continental ShippingOffice and askedher 2 if I could get documents for this particular 3 flight, documents that include the weight and 4 balance, and weigh bill. Any of the documents 5 regarding this shipment. 6 Q And did she give you those? 7 A Yes, she did. 8 MR. BOBERTZ: Your Honor, I have 9 what's been marked for identificationpurposes as 10 Administrator's Exhibits A-3, A-4, A-5, and A-6. 11 May I approach? 12 (Whereupon, the above-referred to 13 documents were marked as Administrator'sExhibits 14 A-3, A-4, A-5, and A-6 for identification.) 15 JUDGE GOODWIN: Yes. 16 MR. BOBERTZ: All right, bear with me 17 for one minute. 18 THE WITNESS: Is it okay if I get a 19 drink of water? 20 JUDGE GOODWIN: Sure. 21 MR. BOBERTZ: Did I give you duplicate 22 copies, Mr. Quinn?

(202) 234-4433 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERSANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLANDAVE., NW WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-44332-26 1 MR. QUINN: I think I have copies of 2 these, though. 3 MR. BOBERTZ: Okay. Well keep those, 4 you don't mind if I share yours? 5 MR. QUINN: No. 6 MR. BOBERTZ: I don't have a full copy 7 apparently. I'll hold a copy for Inspector Kanae 8 and the Judge. 9 (Pause.) 10 MR. BOBERTZ: May I see, I'm sorry. 11 All right, my apologies for the delay. We're all 12 straight now. I just couldn't see my numbers 13 right. 14 I believeprior to the hearingwe went 15 over these documents, and I don't believe Mr. 16 Quinn has any objectionto admissionof documents 17 3, 4, 5, and 6. Perhaps we could cut short the 18 foundational testimony? 19 20 21 Quinn. 22

(202) 234-4433 MR. QUINN: No. MR. BOBERTZ: Okay, thank you, Mr.

JUDGE GOODWIN: No objection, Mr.

NEALR. GROSS COURT REPORTERSANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323RHODE ISLANDAVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-44332-27 1 Quinn? 2 MR. QUINN: No objection to any of 3 them. 4 MR. BOBERTZ: Okay. 5 JUDGE GOODWIN: FAA Exhibits 4, 5, and 6 6 for identification are received into evidence 7 respectfully as Agency 4, 5, and 6. 8 MR. BOBERTZ: And 3, Your Honor, as 9 well? 10 JUDGE GOODWIN: I'm sorry, 3, 4, and 11 5. 12 MR. BOBERTZ: Thank you, and 6. 13 JUDGE GOODWIN: Yes. Exhibits 3, 4, 14 5, and 6 Agency are all admitted as 3, 4, 5, and 15 6 respectfully. 16 (Whereupon, the above-referred to 17 documents were received into evidence as 18 Administrator's Exhibits A-3, A-4, A-5 and A-6.) 19 MR. QUINN: I assume that insofar as 20 I don't have any objections to the exhibits, 21 that's not the same as agreeing to the facts at 22 question?

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1 JUDGE GOODWIN: Well, you can still 2 make inquiry with respect to exhibits, that's 3 fine. 4 MR. BOBERTZ: So InspectorKanae, just 5 briefly, can you summarize your findings 6 regarding these exhibits? Backing up for just a 7 moment, you were just talking about going to the 8 Continental Cargo folks. 9 THE WITNESS: Yes, that's correct. 10 BY MR. BOBERTZ: 11 Q And are these the documents that you 12 received from them? 13 A Yes, but I have one more item if I 14 could. 15 Q Sure, go ahead. 16 A Prior to leaving the aircraft for the 17 cargo warehouse, I talked to the load supervisor 18 and asked if there was any cargo placed in Zone 7 19 or in Zone 9. He replied no, there wasn't any. 20 And then we proceeded to the Continental Cargo 21 warehouse. 22 Q

(202) 234-4433 Okay. And then these are the

NEALR. GROSS COURT REPORTERSANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODEISLANDAVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-44332-29 1 documents you gathered from them? 2 A Yes, that's correct. 3 Q Okay. And can you briefly summarize 4 what the documents meant for you? 5 A Sure. So upon requesting the 6 documents, I reviewedthe weighbill, Continental 7 Airlines weigh bill. 8 Q And which exhibit is that? 9 A That is 10 Q Down at the bottom right hand corner, 11 roughly? I think of Exhibit A-3? 12 A Oh, Exhibit A-3. 13 Q Thank you. 14 A Exhibit A-3. And upon examining it, 15 it does indicate that an aircraft engine was 16 being shipped from Guam to Honolulu, it's gross 17 weight was 10,400 pounds. 18 Q What about the Exhibits A-4, 5, and 6? 19 Did those 20 A Sure. 21 Q -- tell you anything different? 22 A I would like to just kind of like go

(202) 234-4433 NEALR. GROSS COURT REPORTERSANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLANDAVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234·44332-30 1 out of sequence, if that's okay. 2 Q That's fine. 3 A Exhibit A-5 indicates that on pallet 4 72217, there was 316 pounds on that particular 5 shipment. If we were to take the 316 pounds and 6 add it to Exhibit A-6 of 1,084 pounds, that would 7 come out to 10,400 pounds listed on Exhibit A-3. 8 Q And what does that mean? 9 A What that means is the Continental 10 Airlines weigh bill matches the actual weigh bill 11 of Asia Pacific Airlines Cargo manifest on 12 Exhibit A-4. 13 Q And what does that tell you about the 14 weight of the engine? 15 A That it's over 10,000 pounds. 16 Q So then what happened? You got these 17 exhibits from the cargo folks. Did you leave the 18 airport? Did you go back and talk to Aero 19 Micronesia? What happened next? 20 A Well, I felt that perhaps I should 21 take another step ln investigating this 22 particularincident by having the engine weighed.

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1 And so I had a conference with my 2 fellow inspectors and they basicallytold me, you 3 know, we have enough documentation here which is 4 certified by the airlines, and that that should 5 suffice versus having an engine placed on the 6 scale. And so this is enough. 7 And so I agreed, and we decidednot to 8 weigh the englne. 9 Q Wouldn't weighing the engine be a 10 fairly simple thing to do? 11 A Yes. However, in the process it 12 could, the engine could itself get damaged, or 13 maybe the scale could get damaged. So instead of 14 taking that risk, I decided to just go ahead and 15 take these documents as evidence. 16 Q Thank you, Inspector Kanae. Your 17 Honor, I have what's been marked for 18 identification purposes as Administrator's 19 Exhibit A-7. May I approach? 20 (Whereupon, the above-referred to 21 document was marked as Administrator'sExhibit A22 7 for identification.)

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1 JUDGE GOODWIN: Yes. 2 MR. BOBERTZ: And Inspector Kanae, do 3 you recognize this document? 4 THE WITNESS: Yes, I do. 5 MR. BOBERTZ: And what is it? 6 THE WITNESS: This is a copy of the 7 actual Tan Holdings website. 8 MR. BOBERTZ: And did you view that 9 information on the website? 10 THE WITNESS: Yes. Yes, I have 11 reviewed the Tan Holdings website. 12 MR. BOBERTZ: Your Honor, I offer 13 Administrator's Exhibit A-7 into evidence. 14 JUDGE GOODWIN: Mr. Quinn, do you have 15 any objection? Do you have any objection? 16 MR. QUINN: I do not. 17 JUDGE GOODWIN: Okay. Exhibit 7 for 18 identification is received into evidence as 19 Exhibit 7. 20 (Whereupon, the above-referred to 21 document was received into evidence as 22 Administrator's Exhibit A-7.)

(202) 234·4433 NEALR. GROSS COURT REPORTERSANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLANDAVE., N.W WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005·3701 (202) 234·44332-33 1 MR. BOBERTZ: And Inspector Kanae, 2 what's the concern with having the inaccurate 3 manifest, as you testified earlier? 4 THE WITNESS: There's some safety 5 concerns and safety ramifications, and also non6 compliance to the regulations. I'd like to tap 7 on the safety aspect of it first whereby if there 8 is an overloaded cargo placed on a particular 9 portion of the airplane that's not configured or 10 certified for, it could cause problems through 11 the airframe or integrityof the aircraft itself, 12 which could be a safety hazard. 13 BY MR. BOBERTZ: 14 Q What about the manifest error itself, 15 is that a problem? 16 A Yes, because it's inaccurate. And 17 therefore, anyone looking at the manifest could 18 say okay, it's fine, everything's fine. The load 19 has been distributed accordingly to meet all the 20 zone limits. However, in this case, it did not. 21 And so 22 Q Would there be times that you or

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.. NW. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-44332-34 1 someone else may just rely on the cargo manifest 2 for accuracy and not actually look at the load to 3 see that it didn't match? 4 A Yes, that could happen. 5 MR. BOBERTZ: Your Honor, I have 6 what's been marked as Administrator'sExhibitA-8 7 for identification purposes. May I approach? 8 (Whereupon, the above-referred to 9 document was marked as Administrator'sExhibit A10 8 for identification.) 11 JUDGE GOODWIN: Sure. 12 MR. BOBERTZ: And this is actually 13 just the FAA Compliance and Enforcement Program 14 2153 (b) AppendixB that I actuallyasked that the 15 Court take judicial notice of. 16 JUDGE GOODWIN: Yes. Generally, Mr. 17 Quinn, the FAA in all of these cases, 2150(a) 18 talks about the enforcement that has the matrix 19 and everythingelse on it. What I normally do is 20 take judicial notice and that saves me several 21 filing cabinets full of duplicate copies of this. 22

(202) 234·4433 MR. QUINN: Okay.

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1 JUDGE GOODWIN: So Counsel knows that, 2 but are you offering it at this point? 3 MR. BOBERTZ: Yes. For convenience, 4 I took the liberty of making a copy of the 5 Appendix B. And I know I discussed it with

-- 6 JUDGE GOODWIN: Morris and I used to 7 have this conversation all the time. He would 8 always bring a copy, move a copy, and I would 9 always take judicial notice. But to be 10 consistent, the Court takes judicial notice of 11 Federal Aviation Order 5150.3(b) effective date 12 October 1st, '07. 13 It is the type of document of which 14 the Court can take judicial notice, which is 15 regulations and laws and other things which are 16 generallyavailable in the public domain. So the 17 Court will take judicial notice of Exhibit A-8. 18 MR. BOBERTZ: I have no further 19 questions for Inspector Kanae, Your Honor. 20 JUDGE GOODWIN: Mr. Quinn, before you 21 make inquiry, let me just, the Court wants to 22 make sure I understand. Mr. Kanae, if you look

(202) 234-4433 NEALR. GROSS COURT REPORTERSANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLANDAVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-44332-36 1 at Exhibit 1, and there's Zone 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 2 12. What is PAG? Does that just mean package? 3 THE WITNESS: PAG is the pallet 4 number. 5 JUDGE GOODWIN: Okay. So if I'm 6 looking at the first line, to the left it says 7 COMAT. And PAG 72083, is that Charlie Oscar? 8 THE WITNESS: Yes, that's Charlie 9 Oscar standing for Continental. 10 JUDGE GOODWIN: Okay. Oh, I see. 11 Okay. So according to the manifest, that 12 particular pallet would be distributed over Zone 13 7, 8, and 9, is that correct? 14 THE WITNESS: According to this 15 manifest, yes, Your Honor. 16 JUDGE GOODWIN: Okay. Yes, I'm just 17 trying to understand that. Now if you jump to 18 Exhibit 3, is there information on there that 19 ties it to the pallet? 20 THE WITNESS: No, Your Honor, because 21 it was weighed on a scale. So they take the raw 22 weight or the actual weight.

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1 JUDGE GOODWIN: Okay. Now Exhibit 4, 2 again that's pallet 72217 Continental, is that 3 right? 4 THE WITNESS: That is correct. 5 JUDGE GOODWIN: And then there's some 6 numbers above that, Lima, is that the weight? 7 THE WITNESS: No, that's pounds, sir. 8 JUDGE GOODWIN: Pounds, okay. Okay, 9 I'm just trying to get the nomenclature down. 10 You're finished with the witness, Mr. Bobertz? 11 MR. BOBERTZ: Yes, I am. 12 JUDGE GOODWIN: Okay then, Mr. Quinn, 13 would you like to ask this gentleman some 14 questions? 15 MR. QUINN: I would. Thank you. 16 JUDGE GOODWIN: And Mr. Quinn, you can 17 also ask him questions based on my questions. 18 I'm just trying to wrap my head around the 19 nomenclature here. 20 MR. QUINN: I think some of mine will 21 try to clarify some of this. 22 JUDGE GOODWIN: Okay. Thank you.

(202) 234-4433 NEALR. GROSS COURT REPORTERSANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLANDAVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-44332-38 1 CROSS EXAMINATION 2 MR. QUINN: Inspector Kanae, I 3 appreciate that you're taking time today on your 4 vacation. I believe that you testified that you 5 have some Part 121 experience. Could you 6 elaborate on that, exactly who that was and what 7 type of airplanes they had? 8 THE WITNESS: Sure. I was a first 9 officer on a 121 Hawaii inter-islandair carrier. 10 The name of the air carrier is Mid-Pacific 11 Airlines that flew 60 passenger aircraft, turbo 12 propeller, turbo prop. 13 MR. QUINN: Props. And how heavy an 14 airplane was that max takeoff weight, roughly? 15 THE WITNESS: About 154 to, depending 16 on the actual model. They had three different 17 models. It ranged from 154,000 to 180,000, I 18 think, if I remember correctly. 19 20 think so. 21 22

(202) 234-4433 MR. QUINN: 80,000 pounds? I don't For 60 people? THE WITNESS: Yes, I believe so. MR. QUINN: I mean, our 727 holds

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1 JUDGE GOODWIN: Mr. Quinn? Do me a 2 favor and move that microphone closer to you. 3 MR. QUINN: Yes, I'm sorry. 4 THE WITNESS: Excuse me. 5 MR. QUINN: Isn't it true that Asia 6 Pacific's certificate was moved to the Honolulu 7 office, I think, in '09? 8 MR. BOBERTZ: Objection, relevance. 9 JUDGE GOODWIN: Overruled. 10 MR. QUINN: It has to do with the

-- 11 JUDGE GOODWIN: I overruled the 12 objection. You can -- 13 MR. QUINN: Is that correct? 14 THE WITNESS: No, it's not correct. 15 BY MR. QUINN: 16 Q When? 17 A October of 2008. 18 Q Okay, 2008. And you were assigned as 19 the POI for Asia Pacific Airlines at that time? 20 A That's correct. 21 Q Okay. Was Asia Pacific Airlines your 22 first Principal Operating Inspectorpositionat a

(202) 234-4433 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERSANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLANDAVE.• N.W. WASHINGTON. D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-44332-40 1 large aircraft Part 121 carrier? 2 A No. I was -- 3 Q Could you expand on what you -- 4 A Sure. 5 Q -- that experience? 6 A The process of being assigned to a 7 specific carrier means that the inspector has to 8 be qualified. And in this particular situation, 9 I was qualified as a 121 carrier principal. I 10 also had oversight previously with a 121 carrier ll which was located in Guam. And also down in 12 Samoa. 13 Q And that carrier was, in Guam? 14 A That was Freedom Air, and also Samoa 15 Air in Pago Pago, American Samoa. 16 Q Operating a twin engine 17 A Turbo props. 18 Q -- props, fairly small airplanes? 19 A Excuse me. They were transport 20 category aircraft. 21 Q Sure. How would you describe, in 22 general, the difficulty or not of operating out

(202) 234-4433 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERSANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLANDAVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-44332-41 1 in the Pacific to the small island destinations 2 that Asia Pacific flies to? 3 MR. BOBERTZ: Objection, relevance. 4 JUDGE GOODWIN: Overruled. 5 THE WITNESS: Could you repeat the 6 question again? 7 MR. QUINN: In general, how would you 8 describe the difficultyof operations of our kind 9 out in the Pacific to the little airports that we 10 operate out of? 11 THE WITNESS: I would say because of 12 the international overseas oceanic kind of 13 operation, I would say the risk would be from 14 medium to high because of the length of the 15 flights across the oceanic and into international 16 airspace. I would say medium to high as far as 17 risk. 18 MR. QUINN: And difficult because of 19 the different countries and the short runways 20 would have a factor in that? 21 22

(202) 234-4433 THE WITNESS: Yes. MR. QUINN: I assume. Okay.

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(202) 234-44332-42 1 1, what would be your estimate of how long it 2 takes to prepare (telephonic interference) this. 3 JUDGE GOODWIN: Prepare what? 4 MR. QUINN: How long it would take a 5 crew member to prepare this document. 6 MR. BOBERTZ: Objection, asks for 7 speculation. 8 JUDGE GOODWIN: If you can answer. 9 Overruled. 10 THE WITNESS: I'm sorry? 11 JUDGE GOODWIN: You can answer. 12 THE WITNESS: I would only have to 13 estimate it would probably take no more than 15 14 minutes, on the average. 15 MR. QUINN: Having filled out hundreds 16 of these, it takes 20 to 25 minutes. 17 JUDGE GOODWIN: Mr. Quinn, that would 18 be testimony. You can testify to that later. 19 MR. QUINN: Okay. All right, 20 referring to Exhibit 4, at the top of the page, 21 can you elaborate on the numbers and the pallets? 22 In other words, it appears that one pallet shows

(202) 234-4433 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERSANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLANDAVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-44331 an aircraft engine at 10,084 pounds, do you agree 2 with that? 3 THE WITNESS: Yes. 4 BY MR. QUINN: 5 Q And then it shows a second pallet and 6 it says second aircraft engine, 316 pounds. 7 A Correct. 8 Q And so the 10,400 for this particular 9 document would indicate that that weight was 10 spread across, was on two different pallets? 11 A Two separate pallets, these are two 12 separate pallets, correct. 13 Q Right, right. And relating back to 14 Exhibit 1, we can see that the first pallet 15 PAG72083 was loaded, is shown in position eight, 16 and the other pallet is shown in position 12. Do 17 you agree with that? 18 A I agree. 19 Q Okay. And Exhibit 2, I believe you 20 took this picture, is that correct? 21 A It's either myself or one of my co22 inspectors. I think it was Vickie. Vickie had

(202) 234-4433 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERSANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLANDAVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-44332-44 1 the digital camera that day, so I believe she 2 took the photo. 3 Q But it's the only picture of the 4 actual engine in question? 5 A No. I think we took maybe 40 6 pictures, inside and outside the aircraft. 7 Q It's the only picturebeingused as an B exhibit here. 9 A True. 10 Q Okay. And I've lost a piece of paper. 11 And Inspector Kanae, your original Letter of 12 Investigation was dated April the 7th, 2011, is 13 that correct? 14 A I don't have it in front of me, butI 15 believe that would concur because the Letter of 16 Investigation would have occurred after the 17 inspection. So I would assume that's probably 18 correct. 19 Q Okay. And my records indicate thatI 20 replied to that letter with a letter dated April 21 the 20th, approximatelytwo weeks later. I wrote 22 back to you with comments on your Letter of

(202) 234-4433 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERSANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLANDAVE., NW WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-44332-45 1 Investigation. 2 A I don't recall seeing that LOI reply. 3 Q Okay. I'm pretty sure that the letter 4 is within our documents. Do I have to introduce 5 that as an exhibit, his letter and mine? 6 MR. BOBERTZ: That's up to you. 7 (Pause.) 8 MR. QUINN: Here's my letter to 9 Clarence. It's Exhibit H. 10 MR. BOBERTZ: That was Exhibit H I 11 think to our declaration. I do have extra copies 12 of that particular exhibit if you want to use 13 mine and put them in. 14 MR. QUINN: Can we give this one to 15 Clarence for reference? 16 MR. BOBERTZ: I've got copies, 17 actually, with all the attachments. So if you 18 want to put it in with all the attachments. 19 MR. QUINN: All right. 20 MR. BOBERTZ: I don't know if you care 21 about that or not, but here you go. So if Mr. 22 Quinn is going to enter this as an exhibit, let's

(202) 234-4433 NEALR. GROSS COURT REPORTERSANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLANDAVE, N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234A4332-46 1 call it perhaps R-1? 2 JUDGE GOODWIN: Is this the complaint 3 with attachments? 4 MR. BOBERTZ: No, this is a copy of, 5 Mr. Quinn was just referencing 6 JUDGE GOODWIN: Reference the Notice 7 of Civil Penalty and he also commented on his 8 reply. You can make it Respondent's Exhibit, or 9 you can make it Court Exhibit. 10 MR. BOBERTZ: Well, I think he was 11 actually asking about, not the Notice of Civil 12 Penalty but the Letter of Investigation, the LOI 13 from Inspector Kanae. 14 MR. QUINN: Right. Well, you know, he 15 started with an LOI. 16 JUDGE GOODWIN: Right. 17 MR. QUINN: I responded with some 18 basic information on the weights that were 19 exhibits. 20 MR. BOBERTZ: And I don't think Mr. 21 Quinn has extra copies. But I do. I don't have 22 extra copies of Inspector Kanae's LOI to Mr.

(202) 234-4433 NEALR. GROSS COURT REPORTERSANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLANDAVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-44332-47 1 Quinn, but I do have copies of Mr. Quinn's April 2 20th, 2011 reply if he would like to offer those 3 into evidence, that's fine. 4 MR. QUINN: I have copies of the 5 attachments if that's necessary. 6 MR. BOBERTZ: So I don 1t know what you 7 want to do about the LOI, Mr. Quinn, because I 8 don't have the copies of that. 9 MR. QUINN: We don't need that. 10 MR. BOBERTZ: Okay. But you want 11 this? And we'll mark it Exhibit R-1? 12 (Whereupon, the above-referred to 13 document was marked as Respondent's Exhibit R-1 14 for identification.) 15 MR. QUINN: That's fine. 16 MR. BOBERTZ: So there's three copies, 17 one for you, one for Inspector Kanae and one for 18 Judge Goodwin. 19 JUDGE GOODWIN: Thank you. Okay, the 20 Court has a copy of a letter with, top of the 21 letter has Asia Pacific Airlines. It's dated 22 April 20th,

(202) 234·4433 2011. It's been marked as

NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERSANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLANDAVE.• N.W. WASHINGTON. D.C. 20005·3701 (202) 234-44332-48 1 Respondent's 1 for identification. So Mr. Quinn, 2 did you want to ask Mr. Kanae questions on that? 3 MR. QUINN: I do. 4 MR. BOBERTZ: Just one moment for, 5 Your Honor, so the record doesn't get confused. 6 I had originally marked this as a potential 7 Exhibit A, so the Page 1 of 9 on the top, I 8 crossed it out and marked, since it's Mr. Quinn's 9 exhibit, Respondent's Exhibit, I marked it R-1. 10 JUDGE GOODWIN: Right. 11 MR. BOBERTZ: But just for the record, 12 the subsequent pages, Exhibit A- where I was 13 going to write in the number. 14 JUDGE GOODWIN: The Court will change 15 that to R-1. 16 MR. BOBERTZ: Okay. Thank you, Your 17 Honor. 18 MR. QUINN: And Inspector Kanae, if 19 you would refer to

-- 20 JUDGE GOODWIN: Mr. Quinn, keep your 21 voice up because

-- 22

(202) 234-4433 MR. QUINN: I'm sorry.

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(202) 234-44332-49 1 Kanae, if you would please refer to Page 4 of 2 this exhibit. It's actually Page 5 of this 3 exhibit. There's a weight circled and it says 4 dry weight 5,216 pounds. 5 And in the letter, I state that that 6 in fact is the weight of this type of engine that 7 was shipped. Do you agree with that or not? 8 THE WITNESS: I do not agree with 9 that. 10 BY MR. QUINN: 11 Q Not. 12 A No. 13 Q Could you explain why? 14 A Yes. What you have here is a generic 15 weight of a generic engine without fluids within 16 the system itself, fluids such as oil, fuel, and 17 also components, fuel control units, et cetera 18 may not be computed per this generic weight as 19 listed here. 20 Q All right. Even though I believe they 21 state in here that that's the typical shipping 22 weight of an engine. But you've mentioned

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1 components on this engine? 2 A That's correct. 3 Q And you've mentioned oil and fluids. 4 A Yes. 5 Q Isn't it normal procedure that fluids 6 have to be more or less evacuated from an engine 7 prior to shipping? 8 A Yes, but not all of it can be because 9 it gets trapped within the engine itself. 10 Q Okay. And you have any idea how much 11 might be trapped? 12 A It may vary depending on the 13 compartment it is trapped in. So it may vary. 14 Q And with respect to the components, 15 any idea of how many componentsmight be attached 16 to an engine? 17 18 Your Honor. 19 20 21 22 answer.

(202) 234-4433 MR. BOBERTZ: Objection, relevance,

JUDGE GOODWIN: Overruled. MR. QUINN: I'm sorry? JUDGE GOODWIN: Overruled.

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(202) 234-44332-51

1 MR. QUINN: Any idea of, you know, can 2 you give us a couple of examples? 3 THE WITNESS: Sure. The fuel control 4 unit would be attached to the engine, the 5 accessorycase where most of these components are 6 mounted could be such as the fuel control unit, 7 the bleed valves 8 BY MR. QUINN: 9 Q Starters? 10 A Starters, et cetera, yes. 11 Q Generators, ducting? 12 A Correct. 13 Q QEC items, maybe? 14 A Yes. 15 Q A question, you know, the engine is 16 covered in this picture. Any attempt to uncover 17 it to determine what may or may not have been 18 attached to it? 19 A No. To answer your question, no. We 20 didn't uncover it. 21 Q Okay. The following page, Page 65 22 relates to the engine stand itself.

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1 A Yes. 2 Q And it's circled. And I believe the 3 number is 4,620 pounds. 4 A Yes, I see that. 5 Q Do you agree with that number? The 6 problem with this exhibit is that it's obscured. 7 JUDGE GOODWIN: You know we couldjust 8 9 MR. QUINN: And whether that was 10 delivered or not, I don't know. But there 11 appears to be some sort of a stamp on this 12 exhibit that obscures a crucial piece of 13 information. 14 MR. BOBERTZ: I have clear copies, if 15 you would like them, Mr. Quinn. 16 MR. QUINN: Can we -- 17 MR. BOBERTZ: Certainly. 18 MR. QUINN: If you have a clean copy. 19 JUDGE GOODWIN: The Court's the only 20 person who really needs the clear copy. So what 21 you may want to do later is substitute

-- I can 22 barelymake out the 4260, the 4020. It just looks

(202) 234·4433 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERSAND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLANDAVE., N.W WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005·3701 (202) 234·44332-53 1 like it's a poor copy. But if you have a better 2 copy, I'll allow you to substitute that later. 3 MR. QUINN: It's actually a very 4 important 5 JUDGE GOODWIN: Well, I understand 6 that. But I'm the only one that really needs the 7 clear copy. You can, if you've got a clear copy, 8 then show it to the witness and then give it to 9 the Court. 10 MR. BOBERTZ: Do you want just the 11 engine stand copy? There it lS. 12 MR. QUINN: I'm sorry? 13 MR. BOBERTZ: Here it is. Do you want 14 to glve, to drop one to Clarence, too? You know, 15 this isn't actually a -- 16 (Off microphone comment.) 17 MR. BOBERTZ: It's not because it was 18 copied more recently. 19 JUDGE GOODWIN: It's sufficient, I 20 think. 21 MR. BOBERTZ: And this, the unclear 22 copy is just a copy of a copy that we got from

(202) 234-4433 NEALR. GROSS COURTREPORTERSANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLANDAVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-44332-54 1 you in your response. Just recently, I went on 2 the website from the unclear copy and made a 3 clear copy. But you're right, it's not exactly 4 the same. It's a more recent 5 MR. QUINN: Should we enter it as a 6 different exhibit, or can I just 7 MR. BOBERTZ: It's up to you. 8 MR. QUINN: Let me let the Judge 9 decide on this. 10 JUDGE GOODWIN: You know what I'm 11 going to recommend is that we keep R-1 as R-1, 12 and what Mr. Quinn has just handedme, we'll just 13 mark that R-2. 14 (Whereupon, the above-referred to 15 document was marked as Respondent's Exhibit R-2 16 for identification.) 17 JUDGE GOODWIN: And I will note that 18 it's a clearer copy of what is in Pages 6 of 9 19 and 7 of 9 of R-1. I assume that's what you're 20 really

-- 21 22

(202) 234-4433 MR. QUINN: That's fine. JUDGE GOODWIN: Is that satisfactory,

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.. N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-44332-55 1 Mr. Quinn? 2 MR. QUINN: Yes. That's fine, thank 3 you. 4 JUDGE GOODWIN: Okay. What the 5 Court's saying is everyone's having trouble 6 reading parts of Respondent's 1 for 7 identification. 8 What Mr. Quinn has just handed the 9 Court is going to be marked as Respondent's 2 for 10 identification, which in fact is a replicationof 11 Page 6 of 9 and 7 of 9 of Respondent's 1, but 12 it's more readable, and it has to do with the 13 fact that we've got copies of copies. 14 So R-2 for identification for the 15 record is actually Pages 6 of 9 and 7 of 9 of R16 1, it's just that it's a clearer copy. 17 MR. QUINN: Okay. Inspector Kanae, on 18 Page 2 of what I just gave you, it's highlighted 19 total weight, the same 4,620 pounds. 20 21 22 Q

(202) 234-4433 THE WITNESS: I see that. BY MR. QUINN: Would you please read the two numbers,

NEAL R. GROSS COURTREPORTERSANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLANDAVE.• NW. WASHINGTON. D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-44331 the information to the left under dimensions, 2 what it says there? 3 A Under dimensions it says inches. And 4 under that column, you mean? Under the 5 dimensions column? 6 Q Yes. 7 A It says casters up with the actual 8 dimensions, casters down with dimensions. 9 Q And what are the casters? 10 A These are metal wheels that are 11 attached to the frame of the engine stand. 12 Q And there are four of them attachedto 13 the stand, typically? 14 A Typically. 15 Q One on each corner? But only two 16 visible ln the picture? 17 A Yes, that's correct. 18 Q Okay. Would you agree 19 MR. BOBERTZ: Objection, again. I'm 20 sorry, Your Honor. Objection, relevance. We 21 haven't actually admitted this document, yet 22 we're having testimony about it. I'm not sure, I

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1 don't believe this document is relevant to this 2 case. 3 JUDGE GOODWIN: Overruled. 4 MR. QUINN: My next question is the 5 total weight, as I read this document, of 4,620 6 pounds clearly includes the casters on the stand, 7 do you agree or disagree with that? 8 THE WITNESS: Again too, this is a 9 generic weight. And we don't know for sure if 10 the casters are the actual casters that were 11 mounted on this particular stand. So what I'm 12 saying is this, again too, is a generic weight 13 that was produced. 14 BY MR. QUINN: 15 Q So to your knowledge, are there 16 different casters that can be put on a stand of 17 this kind? 18 A It's possible, it's possible. 19 Q Possible, but you don't know? 20 A Yes. 21 Q And to your knowledge, this engine or 22 this stand, separately or together, was never

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.. N.W WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-44332-58 1 weighed in Guam, nor was it weighed in Honolulu, 2 is that correct? 3 A No, it's not correct. It was weighed 4 in Guam. 5 Q It was? 6 A Yes. 7 Q By who? 8 A Continental Airlines. 9 Q And has that been introducedanywhere? 10 A Yes. Exhibit A-3. 11 Q Three. Exhibit A-3 is an airwaybill, 12 correct? 13 A Correct. 14 Q Is it, you know, pretty standard 15 practice for those numbers on airway bills to be 16 incorrect? 17 A Not necessarily becauseyou can see a 18 stamp certified. 19 Q All right. 20 A And delivery authorized. 21 Q I'll probably save this question for 22 Ms. Flores, but at the time this engine was

(202) 234-4433 NEALR. GROSS COURT REPORTERSANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLANDAVE., N.W WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-44332-59 1 shipped, there was no scale in Guam capable of 2 weighing anything over 10,000 pounds. And so 3 this engine was not weighed. 4 MR. BOBERTZ: Objection 5 JUDGE GOODWIN: That's testimony, Mr. 6 Quinn. 7 MR. QUINN: Fine. I'llmaketestimony 8 later. Let's see. The next question that I 9 have, Inspector, is that after April the 20th, 10 after my letter to you, I did not hear anything 11 from the FAA until receiving a letter from Mr. 12 Bobertz nearly six months later. 13 Do you recall when or why you 14 submittedthis to the legal authorityand whether 15 this was reviewed by anyone else at your office? 16 MR. BOBERTZ: Objection, relevance. 17 JUDGE GOODWIN: That's not really 18 relevant, Mr. Quinn. 19 MR. QUINN: Well, it goes to the FAA's 20 own procedures for filing, you know, doing things 21 on a timely basis because of the delay and 22 getting a response. We weren't able to verify

(202) 234-4433 NEALR. GROSS COURT REPORTERSANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLANDAVE, N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-44332-60 1 some of the facts in this case. 2 JUDGE GOODWIN: I think you can 3 present that as part of your testimony and 4 argument at the end in mitigation. I'm not sure 5 at this point how relevant it is. 6 MR. QUINN: Okay. Then the question 7 is was anybody ln your office involved ln 8 reviewing this before it went from you to Mr. 9 Bobertz, I assume. 10 MR. BOBERTZ: Objection, relevance. 11 JUDGE GOODWIN: Overruled, I'll allow 12 that limited inquiry. 13 THE WITNESS: Sure. 14 MR. QUINN: It was. 15 THE WITNESS: The process for 16 enforcement per our FAA order requires that we 17 gather investigative data. We then put together 18 an enforcement package. It is then reviewed not 19 only by myself, but also reviewed by my 20 managementpersonnelbefore it's forwarded to the 21 region for legal counsel to review. 22

(202) 234·4433 In my LOI, if I may mention, I stated

NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERSAND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLANDAVE, N.W. WASHINGTON. D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234·44332-61 1 that I request ten days for a reply. If there is 2 no reply, then the enforcement will be forwarded 3 all the way up to our region legal office, 4 basically. 5 BY MR. QUINN: 6 Q So are you telling me that it was 7 forwardedto legal before you got my letter dated 8 April 20? 9 A I did not receive your letter, Mr. 10 Quinn. 11 Q Really? 12 A I didn't see your letter. I don't 13 remember revealing your letter. 14 Q Okay. So just maybe this is 15 repetitive, but you decided not to weigh the 16 engine here in Honolulu after it arrived? 17 A That's correct. 18 Q Okay. I don't have any further 19 questions. 20 [END OF EXCERPT. HEARING CONTINUES.] 21 MR. BOBERTZ: Thank you, Your Honor. 22 DIRECT EXAMINATION

(202) 234-4433 NEALR. GROSS COURT REPORTERSANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLANDAVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-44332-62

1 BY MR. BOBERTZ: 2 Q So, we learned yesterday, Inspector 3 Kanae, that your work with the FAA and your 4 duties include inspection of the principal 5 operations inspector for Aero Micronesia. 6 Do you recall conductingan inspection 7 of Aero Micronesia on December 8' 2010? 8 A Yes, I do. 9 Q And, can you tell me what type of 10 inspection that was? 11 A That was a scheduled ATOS inspection. 12 ATOS stands for Air Transportation Oversight 13 System. 14 Q And, where did that inspection take 15 place? 16 A That took place in Sanford, Florida. 17 Q So, you mentioned ATOS. So, what's 18 the purpose of this inspection? 19 A It's an actual audit tool that the FAA 20 uses to inspect or do surveillance on an air 21 carrier, to measure the operator's compliance of 22 the regulations, to measure the performance of

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1 the operator, the certificateholder's operations 2 as well. 3 Q So, let's talk a little more details 4 about your inspection. So, was anyone else from 5 the FAA with you? 6 A No, I was there by myself. 7 Q And so, who did you meet? 8 A I met with Mr. Dick Gazda, and I also 9 believe that Bill Davidson, and also BarryWatts, 10 these are gentlemen that approve -- check airman 11 and approved instructors as well. 12 Q For? 13 A For Asia PacificAirlines. And, they 14 were approved by the FAA through the process of 15 approval. 16 Q And, Gazda, you mentioned? Who is he? 17 A He is also a check airman and 18 instructor, and, basically, he's, basically, the 19 manager, the point of contact for that facility 20 that I normally talk with for any kind of 21 scheduling, or check in. 22 Q

(202) 234-4433 And, when you say for that facility,

NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERSANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLANDAVE., NW WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005·3701 (202) 234·44332-64 1 what do you mean? Can you give me more details? 2 What is this facility? 3 A This is a training facility, owned by 4 an actual company. However, Mr. Gazda, Bill 5 Davidson, and Barry Watts at that time were 6 employedby this particularoperation, or company 7 that owns a flight simulator. 8 However, they also were providing 9 services directly to Asia Pacific Airlines. 10 Q So, this is the facility where Asia 11 Pacific conducts its training for its pilots and 12 other crew? 13 A That is correct. 14 Q So, tell me about the inspection that 15 day. What happened? 16 A Certainly. So, I arrived, and what 17 normallyhappens is, we have an in-briefing. So, 18 all four of us sat down, and I began my in19 briefingby explainingwhat I was there for, what 20 I was looking to check or inspect. And, we also 21 talked about previous training that had occurred 22 at the facility, any problems that, perhaps, I

(202) 234·4433 NEALR. GROSS COURT REPORTERSANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLANDAVE

.. NW WASHINGTON. D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-44332-65 1 should know about, and that I could assist in 2 correcting. And, we also talked about future 3 training that APA may be having. 4 Q And then, what? So, you had the sit5 down meeting, and what happened after that? 6 A Okay. So then, I said, okay, let's 7 begin the inspection. And, I asked that I wanted 8 to see their manuals, their GOM. GOM stands for 9 General OperationsManual. And, the FOTM, Flight 10 Operations Training Manual. 11 Mr. Gazda mentioned, I'm sorry, but I 12 don't have them here on the premise. They are 13 located at my home. And, I said, okay. That's 14 not a problem. 15 Our inspection also included checking 16 their records, check airmen and instructor 17 records. So, I asked to let's go ahead and look 18 at the training records for the check airmen and 19 instructors. And, if we could obtain those 20 the manuals, that would be greatly appreciated, 21 and so he did. He was able to furnish the 22 manuals after lunch.

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1 Q So, I'm sorry, maybe I missedpart of 2 it. But, he was able to, but not right away? 3 A Yes, not right away. 4 Q And, what did he say? 5 A He said, well, they are at my home. 6 Q Okay. 7 A I'll need to go and retrieve them, 8 which he did. 9 Q And, he did, did he go get them or did 10 he have someone bring them? 11 A I believe he had someone go to the 12 house and pick them up. 13 Q Okay. So, after lunch he delivered 14 the manuals to you. 15 A Yes. 16 Q And, what did you see? What did you 17 find? 18 A Well then, I reviewedthe manuals, and 19 I noticed that the revision for the GOM was at 20 five, when it really should have been I'm 21 sorry, the GOM was 20 excuse me, the Flight 22 Training Manual was at five, when really it

(202) 234-4433 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERSANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLANDAVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-44332-67 1 should have been at nine. 2 Q Okay. 3 MR. BOBERTZ: Your Honor, I have what's 4 been marked as Complainant's Exhibit A-1. I'd 5 say in the interest of time, A-1, A-2 and A-3. 6 May I approach? 7 JUDGE GOODWIN: Yes. 8 (Whereupon, the documents were 9 marked for identification as 10 Administrator's Exhibit A-1 through 11 A-3 for identification.) 12 (Whereupon, the witness was proffered 13 the documents.) 14 BY MR. BOBERTZ: 15 Q Inspector Kanae, I handed you what's 16 been marked for identification purposes as 17 Administratcr's Exhibits A-1, A-2, and A-3. 18 Starting with Exhibit A-1, do you recognize that 19 document? 20 A Yes, I do. 21 Q And, what is it? 22 A This is the Asia Pacific Airlines

(202) 234-4433 NEALR. GROSS COURT REPORTERSANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLANDAVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005·3701 (202) 234·44332-68 1 Record of Revisions for the FOTM. This is my 2 copy, my office copy, with Revision 9, datedMarch 3 11, 2010. 4 Q And, revisions sixand seven, what date 5 does your record indicate that they were inserted 6 into your manual? 7 A Six and seven was February 13, 2009. 8 Q And so, when did that indicate to you 9 that they were issued? 10 A Either at that time or before, 11 February, 2009. 12 Q Okay. And, revisions eight and nine, 13 you inserted them when? 14 A I inserted them on March 11, 2010. 15 Q And, when did that indicateto you that 16 they were issued? 17 A If you turn the page, you'll see my FAA 18 the FAA stamp, Approved, March 11, 2010, which 19 coincides with revisions eight and nine, with my 20 signature on it looks like all three of the list 21 of effective pages. 22 Q

(202) 234-4433 Okay.

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1 A Four pages, excuse me. 2 MR. BOBERTZ: Your Honor, I offer 3 Administrator's Exhibit A-1 into evidence. 4 JUDGE GOODWIN: Mr. Quinn, any 5 objection? 6 MR. QUINN: No. 7 JUDGE GOODWIN: FAA Exhibit 1 for 8 identification is received into evidence as 9 Exhibit 1. 10 (Whereupon, the document that was 11 previously marked for 12 identification as Administrator's 13 Exhibit A-1, was received in 14 evidence.) 15 BY MR. BOBERTZ: 16 Q And, Inspector Kanae, turning to 17 Exhibit A-2, do you recognize this document? 18 A Yes, I do. 19 Q And, what is it? 20 A IT's a reply to you from Mr. Quinn. 21 First of all it says it's a letter replyingto you 22 regarding this case.

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1 Q Maybe it does talk to them, but it 2 lists the-- there's some attachments, Notice of 3 Annual Distribution. 4 MR. BOBERTZ: So, we'll discuss those, 5 and I guess for the moment, Your Honor, I'll offer 6 Exhibit A-2 into evidence. 7 JUDGE GOODWIN: Mr. Quinn? 8 MR. QUINN: No. 9 JUDGE GOODWIN: A-2 for identification 10 is received into evidence as FAA Exhibit No. 2. 11 (Whereupon, the document that was 12 previously marked for 13 identification as Administrator's 14 Exhibit A-2, was received ln 15 evidence.) 16 BY MR. BOBERTZ: 17 Q InspectorKanae, canyoupleaseturnon 18 Exhibit A-2 to what's called, if you look at the 19 bottom of the page, 4 of 6? 20 A Yes. 21 Q And, what is this Notice of Manual 22 Distribution telling you?

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1 A This is anAsia PacificAirlinesNotice 2 of Manual Distributionfor the FOTM. It's Revision 3 No.

-- there's eight and nine assignedto Mr. Dick 4 Gazda, with an issue date of March 15, 2010, 5 distributed March 12, 2010. 6 And then, the transmittal report, 7 shortlybelowthis information, indicatesthat Mr. 8 Gazda, actually, inserted this revision in, it 9 looks 2 I can't make that out. 10 Q It's hard to tell, yes. Okay. That's 11 all right. 12 Then, can you please turn the page to 13 the next Notice of Manual Distribution, and what 14 does this indicate to you? 15 A Right. This is also an Asia Pacific 16 Airlines manual distribution form, for the GOM 17 this time. It's a manual number assigned to Mr. 18 Gazda, it's 9, Revision22, issuedFebruary, 2009, 19 distributed back in October of 2010. 20 He inserted Revision 22 for the GOM 21 January 21, 2011. 22 Q

(202) 234-4433 Okay, thank you, Mr. Kanae.

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1 Now, turning to Exhibit A-3. 2 A Yes. 3 Q Can you brieflydescribe this document 4 to me? 5 A Yes. This is a manual control document 6 belonging to

-- that Asia Pacific Airlines uses. 7 This particularmanual control document names the 8 GOM, the GOM Revision No. 22, issue date of 9 February, 2009, and then listing all the holders 10 of the company by manual number, and then date of 11 installed of this particular revision. 12 Q And, what is this

-- what information 13 do you garner from this document regarding Manual 14 No. 9, the Director of Trainings Manual? 15 A It is blank. The holder's name is Mark 16 Eden, who no longer worked or the company at that 17 particular time. And so, it's blank, meaning it 18 wasn't installed. 19 Q And, you may have said this and I 20 missed it, but where does this

-- where did you 21 get this document? 22 A

(202) 234-4433 Oh, I requested it from

-- I requested

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1 this from theirHeadquartersat Danville, the main 2 office. And, it was sent to me. 3 Q Okay, thank you, Inspector. 4 So, Inspector, could I

-- we talked a 5 lot about these couple manuals. We've talked 6 about the GOM, the FOTM, a number revisions, and 7 a number of dates. With all that information, did 8 you compile a summary for us? 9 A Yes, I did. 10 MR. BOBERTZ: Your Honor, I have what's 11 been marked for identification purposes as 12 Administrator's Exhibit A-4. May I approach? 13 JUDGE GOODWIN: Yes. 14 (Whereupon, the document was marked 15 for identification as 16 Administrator's Exhibit No. A-4.) 17 (Whereupon, the witness was proffered 18 the document.) 19 BY MR. BOBERTZ: 20 Q Inspector Kanae, I'd like to start

-- 21 well, first of all, do you recognize I've 22 handed you what's been marked for identification

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.. N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-44332-74 1 purposes as Administrator's Exhibit A-4, do you 2 recognize this document? 3 A Yes, I do. 4 Q And, what is it? 5 A This is a basic timeline of the GOM 6 manual, of the revisions, as well as for the 7 flight training manual. It's just a graph 8 indicating the length of time and when the 9 revisionswere inserted, or in effect, and also it 10 indicates when my inspection occurred. 11 Q Okay. So, we'll get into the dates and 12 what not in a minute, but I'd like to go over 13 first the notes. There's some notes on there, and 14 what do those notes indicate? 15 A Sure. It shows on the top, it's a 16 timeline for the GOM. The Revision 22 was issued 17 February, 2009. And, if we look at Exhibit A-2, 18 we can see that that 2009, that corresponds to 19 this graph. 20 And, Note 1, if I could read that to 21 you, says, "Asia PacificAirlines, August 3, 2011, 22 letter responding to FAA Notice of Proposed Civil

(202) 234-4433 NEALR. GROSS COURT REPORTERSANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLANDAVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-44331 Penalty to the attachedAirlines Notice Of Manual 2 Distribution. Notice regarding the GOM shows 3 Revision 22 issued February, 2009

...," this is 4 Exhibit A-2, "

... distributed to Mr. Gazda

...," 5 again look at ExhibitA-2, "

... postedJanuary21, 6 2011," again it's on Exhibit A-2. "Notice 7 regarding the Flight OperationsTrainingManual." 8 This is Exhibit A-2, but page six of

-- page four 9 of six, still with Note 2, Note 1, excuse me. 10 "Notice regarding the Flight Ops FOTM, shows 11 Revision 8 and 9 issued in March, 2010." And, 12 that's in A-2, March of 2010. 13 So, basically, that one is showing on 14 the draft itself for the GOM, for the timeline. 15 Q So, the notes are indicatingwhere that 16 information came from on your timeline? 17 A That's correct. 18 MR. BOBERTZ: Your Honor, I offer 19 ExhibitAdministrator•sExhibitA-4 intoevidence. 20 21 Quinn? 22

(202) 234-4433 JUDGE GOODWIN: Any objection, Mr.

MR. QUINN: A-4. I'm just seeing this

NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERSANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLANDAVE.• N.W WASHINGTON. D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-44332-76 1 for the first time, if I may have a minute. 2 JUDGE GOODWIN: Sure. 3 MR. BOBERTZ: We just talked about Note 4 1. We're happy to go through all the details, you 5 know, where point by point where that information 6 is. 7 JUDGE GOODWIN: Give him a chance to 8 review it. 9 Cameron, did I admit Exhibit 3? 10 COURT REPORTER: No. 11 JUDGE GOODWIN: Okay. 12 MR. BOBERTZ: Now, while Mr. Quinn is 13 reading that, the Administrator offers what was 14 marked for identification as Exhibit A-3 into 15 evidence. 16 JUDGE GOODWIN: Okay. Let's give Mr. 17 Quinn a chance, though. 18 MR. QUINN: I think I do object to this, 19 because of the way it's worded. I would say that, 20 you know, I have no problem agreeing that the 21 particularmanuals that Inspector Kanae looked at 22 in Florida were these revisions.

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1 But, this case is not about that. The 2 case is about whether or not Mr. Gazda had the 3 revisions. They were at his garage, and this 4 reallydoesn't reflect that. I did not admit that 5 Mr. Gazda didn't have these things, and there are 6 records indicatinghere, even includingExhibit 2, 7 that indicate that we had sent them to him. 8 JUDGE GOODWIN: Well, I'm going to 9 overrule the objection and allow admission of the 10 document. Your argument, Mr. Quinn, is going to 11 go to the weight that I'm going to give to it. 12 Again, this is the FAA's case. In your 13 case, you, certainly, have the right to present 14 any testimony that you want to, to elaborate on 15 your objections. 16 MR. QUINN: Okay. 17 JUDGE GOODWIN: And now, Mr. Bobertzhas 18 alsoofferedAdministrator's3 for identification. 19 I wanted to give you a chance to
-- that's the 20 document Manual Control. 21 MR. QUINN: ExhibitA-3 you are speaking 22 of?

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.. NW. WASHINGTON. D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-44332-78

1 JUDGE GOODWIN: Yes. Do you have any 2 objection? 3 MR. QUINN: No. 4 JUDGE GOODWIN: Okay. Administratcr's 5 Exhibit A-3 for identification is received in 6 evidence, and Administrator's A-4, which the 7 testimony is that it was a document prepared to 8 explain the facts, is admitted into evidence. 9 (Whereupon, the documents that were 10 previously marked for 11 identification as Administrator's 12 Exhibit Nos. A-3 and A-4 were 13 received in evidence.) 14 MR. BOBERTZ: Thank you, Your Honor. 15 BY MR. BOBERTZ: 16 Q So, just briefly, Inspector Kanae, can 17 you go through, run us quickly throughthe Exhibit 18 A-4 for the GOM, and the Flight Training Manual? 19 A Sure, certainly. 20 So, we'll look at Exhibit A-4. We' 11 21 start to the far left, Revision 6 was issued in 22 February, 2009. So, look at Note No. 3.

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1 Q I'm sorry, are you on the

-- you are 2 starting with which one? 3 A You saidyou wantedthe FlightTraining 4 Manual? 5 Q Oh, it doesn't matter, I just was 6 thinking you were starting with the first one. 7 So, I got confused. My bad. Either one is fine. 8 A Oh, okay, but do you want me to explain 9 Exhibit A-4 again? 10 Q Just briefly go through it, yes. 11 A Okay. So, if we look at this timeline 12 graph for both manuals, GOM on the top, FOTM on 13 the bottom, we can see when the revision was 14 issued to the far left. We'11 start with the GOM 15 first. 16 We discuss Note 1. As we travel across 17 to the right side, we can see when Revision 22 was 18 distributed by APA. I announced that by the 19 appropriate exhibit. 20 We looked at my inspection, the date 21 was December of 2010. At that time, Mr. Gazda had 22 Revision 21.

(202) 234-4433 NEALR. GROSS COURT REPORTERSANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISlANDAVE

.. NW WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-44332-80 1 Keep in mind that this timeline graph 2 only depicts Mr. Gazda's assignedmanuals, no one 3 else's in the company, just the assigned manuals 4 to that particular training site. 5 So, I'll continue. Continuingon to the 6 right, I also explain that Revision 22 was not 7 inserted until January 21, 2011. 8 Q Okay. 9 A That covers the timeline for the GOM. 10 Q And, the Flight Training Manual? 11 A Oh, for the Flight TrainingManual, we 12 are looking at, again, it was also issued in 13 February of 2009. With Note 3, if I could go over 14 that real quickly, records of revision for Asia 15 Pacific Ops FOTM, it shows Revision 6, which is 16 Exhibit 4-1? 17 Q A-1. 18 A A-1, sorry. 19 Asia Pacific FOTM, it shows Revision 6 20 inserted on 2013, 2009, indicating the revision 21 must have been issued in February, 2009, or 22 earlier.

(202) 234-4433 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERSANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLANDAVE., NW. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-44332-81 1 As we continue along the graph to the 2 right, I mentioned earlier as well under Note 1 3 that Revision 8 and 9 for the Flight Training 4 Manual was issued March of 2010. 5 During my inspection in December '10, 6 you can see that Mr. Gazda had in his manual 7 Revision 5, and that is from Note 2 to explain 8 this particular graph I was helped in making. 9 Q So, were there also-- Note 2 indicates 10 that was an admission in Asia Pacific's reply to 11 the complaint, but was it also not the information 12 that you obtained during your inspection? 13 A Well 14 Q That you found the status of the 15 manuals as you found them. 16 A Yes, I found them, and I was surprised, 17 because that is a trainingfacility. And, I asked 18 Mr. Gazda, is this the latest revision you have 19 for both manuals? 20 His replywas yes. Is this the latest, 21 I didn't receive anything else from the company. 22

(202) 234-4433 And, I said, well, what do you mean?

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1 I didn't receive anything from 2 Danville. So, this is it, this is what I have, 3 and that's all. 4 And, I said, well then, we have a 5 problem and, therefore, I will need to notify the 6 Vice President of Operations that we have a 7 problem, that we have outdated manuals. So, I 8 left it at that. 9 Q DidMr. Gazda say anythingto you about 10 having updates somewhere else in a box? 11 A No, he did not. 12 Q Didhe say anythingto you about having 13 updates anywhere else? 14 A No, he said that was it, that's all I 15 have. This is what you see, and this is what I 16 have. They never sent me any revisions. 17 Q Inspector Kanae, did you have an 18 opportunity to prepare a statement about your 19 inspection, upon your return to the office? 20 A Yes, I did. Prior to

-- and that's 21 sad, because

-- 22 Q

(202)234-4433 Hang on one minute.

NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERSANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLANDAVE., N.W WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-44332-83 1 MR. BOBERTZ: Your Honor, I have what's 2 been marked as Administrator'sExhibit A-4 --I'm 3 sorry, A-5 for identification. May I approach? 4 JUDGE GOODWIN: Yes. 5 (Whereupon, the document was marked 6 for identification as 7 Administrator's Exhibit No. A-5.) 8 (Whereupon, the witness was proffered 9 the document.) 10 BY MR. BOBERTZ: 11 Q Inspector Kanae, I have handed you 12 what's been marked for identificationpurposes as 13 Administrator's Exhibit A-5. Do you recognize 14 that document? 15 A Yes, I do. 16 Q And, what is it? 17 A This ismy Inspector'sStatement, after 18 the inspection that I conducted. 19 MR. BOBERTZ: Your Honor, I offer 20 Administrator's Exhibit A-5 into evidence. 21 JUDGE GOODWIN: Mr. Quinn, anyobjection 22 to this?

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.. NW WASHINGTON. D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-44332-84 1 MR. QUINN: No. 2 JUDGE GOODWIN: A-5 for identification 3 is received into evidence as A-5. 4 (Whereupon, the document that was 5 previously marked for 6 identification as Administrator's 7 Exhibit No. A-5 was received in 8 evidence.) 9 MR. BOBERTZ: Your Honor, I have what's 10 been marked as Administrator's Exhibit A-6 for 11 identification purposes. May I approach? 12 JUDGE GOODWIN: Yes, thank you. 13 (Whereupon, the document was marked 14 for identification as 15 Administrator's Exhibit No. A-6.) 16 (Whereupon, the witness was proffered 17 the document.) 18 BY MR. BOBERTZ: 19 Q Inspector Kanae, I have handed you 20 what's been marked for identificationpurposes as 21 Administrator's Exhibit A-6. Do you recognize 22 this document?

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1 A Yes, I do. 2 Q And, what is it? 3 A This is TanHoldingswebsite. This was 4 an extract from the Tan Holdings website. 5 Q And, how many people does it indicate 6 work for Tan Holdings? 7 A It indicates that Tan Holdings employs 8 more than 4,000 people. 9 Q And, does it indicatethatAsia Pacific 10 Airlines is an affiliate or business unit of Tan 11 Holdings? 12 Yes, it does. 13 Q And, where is that? 14 A It's on page three or page four, 15 Strategic Business Units. 16 Q Thank you. 17 MR. BOBERTZ: Your Honor, I offer 18 Administrator's Exhibit A-6 into evidence. 19 JUDGE GOODWIN: Any objection? 20 MR. QUINN: No. 21 JUDGE GOODWIN: A-6 for identification 22 is received into evidence as A-6.

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1 (Whereupon, the document that was 2 previously marked for 3 identification as Administrator's 4 Exhibit No. A-6 was received in 5 evidence.) 6 MR. BOBERTZ: Your Honor, I'd also ask 7 that the Court take judicial notice of the FAA 8 Order 2150.3 (b), FAA's Compliance and Enforcement 9 Program, which I have, for convenience, copied a 10 portion of the sanction guidance contained in 11 AppendixB, and marked as Administrator'sExhibit 12 A-7. 13 (Whereupon, the document was marked 14 for identification as 15 Administrator's Exhibit No. A-7.) 16 MR. BOBERTZ: And, I also ask that the 17 Court take judicial notice of a November 7, 2011 18 interpretation to a Robert Sweet, FAA legal 19 interpretation, which I've marked for 20 identification purposes as Exhibit A-8. 21 (Whereupon, the document was marked 22

(202) 234-4433 for identification

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(202) 234-44332-87 1 Administrator's Exhibit No. A-8.) 2 JUDGE GOODWIN: As to the first exhibit 3 for identification, it's the Court's practice to 4 take judicial notice of regulations, law, case 5 law, and things that are normally in the public 6 sector. This comes within the purview of those 7 matters for which we can take judicial notice. 8 So, the Court will take judicial notice of FAA 9 Exhibit A-7. 10 As to the letter, November 7, 2011, do 11 you have any objection, Mr. Quinn? 12 MR. QUINN: No. 13 JUDGE GOODWIN: It's a legal opinion 14 from Ms. MacPherson to Robert Sweet. 15 MR. QUINN: No. 16 JUDGE GOODWIN: All right. Exhibit A-8 17 for identificationis receivedinto evidenceas A18 8. 19 (Whereupon, the document that was 20 previously marked for 21 identification as Administrator's 22 Exhibit No. A-8 was received ln

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1 evidence.) 2 MR. BOBERTZ: Thank you, Your Honor. 3 BY MR. BOBERTZ: 4 Q Inspector Kanae, what is the problem 5 with having manuals that are outdated? 6 A Well, with having outdated manuals, 7 that causes some safety issues, first of all, in 8 that manuals for live policyprocedures, which is 9 normally, or is, an approved document approvedby 10 the FAA. 11 So, if these manuals are outdated, it 12 could cause a safety issue, in that air crew 13 members, in this case, may not be following the 14 correct procedures, or the most current 15 procedures, which may involve an accident or 16 incident. 17 Now secondly, alsooutdatedmanualsmay 18 also lead towards not being in compliancewith the 19 regulations. 20 Q But, there was no training going on at 21 the time of your inspection, isn't that true? 22 A

(202) 234·4433 That is correct, no training was being

NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERSANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLANDAVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005·3701 (202) 234·44332-89 1 accomplished at the time. 2 Q Was there traininggoing on during the 3 period where, lookingback at your summary chart, 4 A-4, it looks like both Revision 6 to the Flight 5 TrainingManual, and Revision 22 to the GOM, were 6 issued in February, 2009. And, at the date of 7 your inspectim, in December, 2010, those 8 revisions were not contained in the manual. 9 Was there training going on between 10 February, 2009 and December, 2010? 11 A Yes, there was. 12 Q Do you recall, generally, what type of 13 training they might have been doing? 14 A Yes. Every six months the check airmen 15 and the instructors, I'm talking simulator and 16 also-- I'm sorry, not simulators, but line check 17 airmen are required to come in every six months 18 and get their checks, their training, and their 19 evaluations, basically, every six months. 20 And so, therewas trainingconductedto 21 my inspection. 22 Q Thank you, Inspector Kanae.

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1 MR. BOBERTZ: No further questions. 2 JUDGE GOODWIN: Mr. Quinn, would you 3 like to inquire of Mr. Kanae? 4 MR. QUINN: Yes. 5 CROSS EXAMINATION 6 BY MR. QUINN: 7 Q InspectorKanae, can you give us a kind 8 of a general descriptionof the issue back in the 9 fourth quarter of 2010, where Asia Pacific 10 Airlines, working with the FAA, was moving from 11 having our training done by an FAA-approved, Part 12 142, flight school, over to an in-house-approved 13 training program? 14 A I sure can. I remember during that 15 time frame that Mr. Bob Resling reviewedwhat was 16 approved at that time, from the previous 17 principal, and decided that he did not want a 142 18 curriculum, did not want to use that program. 19 And, therefore, I didn't see a problem as a POI, 20 that Asia Pacific reverts to an in-house kind of 21 training. 22

(202) 234-4433 I did not have a problem with that. Along with the 142 training, comes

NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERSANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLANDAVE., NW WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-44332-91 1 operation specifications. So, Mr. Resling was 2 notified that operation specifications would be 3 rendered for inactive, be void. Therefore, Asia 4 Pacific was allowed to do in-house training. 5 Q Were you aware that the Sanford 6 training facility in question here was owned and 7 operated, the Part 142 school was a part of 8 Capital CargoAirlines, based in Orlando, Florida? 9 A Yes, I was. I was briefed by Mr. 10 Gazda, Mr. Bill Davidson, and also by BarryWatts. 11 They briefed me on that, yes. 12 Q And, are you aware that when Capital 13 Cargo decidedto no longer operate the 142 school, 14 they evicted-- I say evicted, that's maybe too 15 harsh, but made Dick Gazda move out of that 16 facility? 17 A Yes. 18 Q He had an office there and he had to 19 vacate it? 20 A Yes. Mr. Gazda did indicate that, but 21 he also indicated that he was allowed to use an 22 office, as appropriate, and as needed.

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1 Q Correct, but he was not able to keep 2 anymanuals, or documents, or records, or anything 3 else. He was just able to use it. 4 A That's what he indicated. 5 Q Okay. Would it be your opinion that 6 that would be the reason why the manuals weren't 7 at this facility during the time of your visit? 8 A Well, yes, but it was available, and 9 that's what the regulation states, would be 10 available. So, it was available, and Mr. Gazda 11 made it available. 12 Q Okay. Referring back to Exhibit A-1, 13 actually, I'11 come back to that. It's Exhibit A14 2 that I want to refer to. 15 Exhibit A-2, page four, do you know, 16 specifically, who, you know, fills out the top 17 part of this form, the Notice of Manual 18 Distribution, how that works? 19 A Normally, this comes from your office. 20 Q Correct. 21 A And then, it's forwarded to the holder 22 of the particular manual.

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1 Q Okay. And, would you read for us what 2 it says where, under distribution date? 3 A Sure. "Manual holder maintains 4 responsibilityfor currency and condition on his 5 assigned manuals at all times.• 6 Q So, in other words, this is the manual 7 this is referring to Revisions 8 and 9 of the 8 Flight Operations Training Manual. 9 A Yes. 10 Q Assigned to Dick Gazda, with a 11 distribution date of March 12, 2010, sent out by 12 my office. And below, Mr. Gazda, who signed this 13 particulardocumentApril2, 2010, and returnedit 14 to our office. 15 I would also note .that there's some 16 facsimilemarks on this document down in the lower 17 left corner. Can you see that date? 18 A I do. 19 Q Can you read it? 20 A It's March 24, 2010. 21 Q Okay. There also happens to be one 22 that is cut off in the upper left-hand corner of

(202) 234·4433 NEAL R. GROSS COURTREPORTERSAND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLANDAVE., NW WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005·3701 (202) 234·44332-94 1 that document, and it also says March, it says 2 March 24th also. 3 When you look at FAR 121.137, how many 4 parts to that particular FAR are there? 5 A I would-- I don't memorize all of the 6 regulations, so I can't tell you. 7 Q If I said that there were 2a and b, 8 would that sound correct to you? 9 A I would assume so, yes, sir. 10 Q Okay. The original charge in this case 11 was violation of FAR 121.137(a). 12 MR. BOBERTZ: Objection, relevance. 13 JUDGE GOODWIN: Overruled. 14 MR. QUINN: Well, that particular FAR 15 requires the company to
-- 16 JUDGE GOODWIN: It'sbeenoverruled. You 17 can inquire. Overruled means you can ask the 18 question and he can answer. 19 MR. QUINN: Okay. 20 BY MR. QUINN: 21 Q The question is, FAR 121.137(a) 22 requires the company to distribute the manual's

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1 revisions. Do you agree with that? 2 A Yes, I do, and I do recall now. 3 Q What? 4 A I do now recall the regulations a 5 little better. 6 Q Oh, okay. 7 And so, I guess I'm confused, because 8 we've suppliedthe FAA with documentationthat we 9 sent out the appropriate revisions. We have a 10 signed piece of paper from the recipient that he 11 received the revisions, dated in March of 2010. 12 How would you explain that? Do you have an 13 explanation? 14 A Sure. Sure. It still doesn't 15 alleviate or still doesn't relinquish the 16 responsibility of the air carrier to audit the 17 manuals. You have a manual control system, and 18 the manual control system for this particular 19 manual is blank. 20 And, therefore, it appears that since 21 the manual control document was at your office and 22 it's blank, it appears that it still falls into

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.. N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005·3701 (202) 234·44332-96 1 the air carrier'sresponsibilityto make sure that 2 this regulation is applied. 3 Q And, you are referring to? 4 A I'm sorry, to Exhibit A-3. 5 Q Right. Do you see Mr. Gazda's name 6 anywhere on that list? 7 A That's correct, I don't. 8 Q Okay. And, do you have any clue why 9 that is? 10 A Yes, because the former Director of 11 Training, Mark Eden, had resigned. I inquired 12 about that with Mr. Gazda, and with the rest of 13 the staff at Florida, and they stated that all of 14 Mark Eden's manuals were transferred for them. 15 Q All right. Well, okay. 16 How many document revisions do you 17 think a Part 121 pilot gets in the course of a 18 year? 19 A It would depend. It would depend on 20 the operation. 21 Q Would you be able to agree with the 22 statement that Asia Pacific Airlines has close to

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1 5,000 pages of manuals and documents involved in 2 our airline? 3 A Certainly, yes, I do. 4 Q Okay. And, clearly, from Exhibit A-1 5 you can see that these manuals are routinely 6 changed, sometimes significantly, sometimes not. 7 Would you agree that a pilot who gets 8 revisions of airport charts from Jeppesen twice a 9 month, gets changes to the GOM, you know, once or 10 twice a year, given Exhibit A-3. They get a lot of 11 paperwork, they get a lot of revisions to things. 12 A I'd agree. 13 Q And, would you agree that human nature 14 and practices, when you get these revisions you 15 often just put them in a box, or throw with a 16 manual for some period of time before you, 17 actually, insert them? 18 A Yes, that's very possible, depending 19 again

-- 20 Q That includesyourself, because there's 21 often gaps of a month or two between when we send 22 you the revision and when you install it?

(202) 234-4433 NEALR. GROSS COURT REPORTERSANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLANDAVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-44332-98 1 A Sure, yes. 2 Q Okay. And so, would you agree that 3 it's certainly possible that Mr. Gazda had the 4 revisions and had them in the box in his garage at 5 home 40 miles away? 6 A At that time of the inspection, he did 7 not indicate that. 8 Q I can understand that. You know, it 9 had been close to a year since we sent them to 10 him. It doesn't surprise me that he didn't 11 remember. 12 But, clearly, if you read-- that's not 13 a question. 14 And, I believeyou testifiedthat there 15 was no training going on? 16 A That's correct, no training being 17 accomplished at the time. 18 Q The other thing that I assume you are 19 aware of is, is that APA has a procedure for our 20 pilots taking their manuals to Sanford, so that 21 they canbe checkedwhile they are routinelythere 22 every six months to a year by Mr. Gazda for the

(202) 234·4433 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERSANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLANDAVE., NW WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005·3701 (202) 234-44332-99 1 proper revisions. 2 A Okay. 3 Q One of the steps that we take. 4 A Right. 5 Q And, the reason I say that is because 6 it's the individual pilot's manuals, such as the 7 GOM, that are, actually, used duringthe training? 8 A Yes. 9 Q Okay. Do you recall me callingyou in, 10 you know, a few days before you left for Sanford, 11 regarding Mr. Resling's death? 12 A I rememberyou -- yes, I rememberthat

. 13 Q And, do you recall me asking you to 14 postpone that trip based on his death? 15 A I think you either emailed me, or I'm 16 not sure if it was a phone call, but I did receive 17 a message from you indicating that, yes. 18 Q All right. And, after Sanford, can you 19 tell me where you traveled next? 20 A 21 22

(202) 234-4433 All right. MR. BOBERTZ: Objection, relevance. JUDGE GOODWIN: Overruled.

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1 I don't want to go too far afield, 2 though. 3 THE WITNESS: Let's see. AfterSanford, 4 where did I leave. I'm not exactly sure. I'm not 5 sure if I stopped at your office. 6 Q You did. 7 A Okay. 8 Q You visited with me a few days later, 9 even though I'd asked you not to do that, too, 10 because I was tied up with Mr. Resling's death. 11 A I don't remember. I'm sorry, I don't 12 remember that. 13 Q Okay. Referring back to Exhibit A-1, 14 page two

-- actually, two, three, four and five, 15 can you tell me how many pages in this document 16 were changed by Revisions 8 and 9? 17 A Sure. As we look at page I, this is 18 how is identifiedbyAsia Pacific'smanual system, 19 on the top right is page I. You can see over in 20 the right-hand column Revision 8. Turn the page, 21 continuingdown, just lookingdown the column, and 22 you can see no Revision 8 there.

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1 And, as you look on the next page 2 there's no Revision 8, which is on page iii. On 3 page iv, there's no Revision 8. 4 Q You are referring to Revision 8, I'm 5 sorry? 6 A Your revision you referred to 7 Revision 8. 8 Q Right. You are just outlining those 9 pages. So, basically, page 2i, under Chapter 3, 10 and six or sevenpages at the end of that chapter. 11 A Doesn't have Revision 8. 12 Q Revision 8. 13 A Yes, iiidoesnothaveRevision8. lV, 14 which is the last page, does not have Revision 8. 15 Revision 8 can be found on, let's see, on page I, 16 right side column. 17 Q Page 2 of 5? I'm sorry, I can't

-- I 18 didn't hear you, page 205? 19 A 20 Q 21 A 22 Q

(202) 234-4433 205, yes. Okay. The right-hand column. Yes, top right column. Okay. And, two pages for Revision9 in

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1 Chapter 4? 2 A Chapter 4, yes. 3 Q Okay. Do you see any Revision 7 pages 4 ln here? 5 A No, I don't. 6 Q Can you explain that? 7 A I'm sorry, yes, I do. On page I, 8 you'll see Revision 7, of Chapter 2, Boeing 727 9 ground. 10 Q And, Chapter 6, or rather, Revision 6, 11 lS right at the

-- on page four of five. 12 A Yes, that's correct. 13 Q Okay. What do you think the

-- can you 14 explain, I don't know if you remember, but 15 Appendix K was added in to this manual, which this 16 defines the simulators ln use, is that your 17 recollection? 18 A I believe so, but if I have the 19 document I can better accurately say yes or no. 20 But, if I remember correctly, I believe that's the 21 document that Bob Resling and I were working on 22 together.

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1 Q Right. 2 A To identify the training devices and 3 training simulators approved. 4 Q But, it wouldn't have changed anything 5 with respect to the training itself, since the 6 simulators didn't change from one facility to the 7 other. 8 A That's correct, yes. 9 Q Okay. Referring to Exhibit A-8, can 10 you tell us what the date of this letter to Mr. 11 Sweet was? 12 A Just a moment. A-8, let me make sure 13 I have it. 14 Q Oh, you know, that was one that was 15 asked to take judicial notice of, so I didn't' 16 bring it to you. I'll bring it. 17 (Whereupon, the witness was proffered 18 the document.) 19 BY MR. QUINN: 20 Q Okay. So, the date of the letter? 21 A Oh, yes, okay. I seeExhibitA-8, the 22 date of the letter is November 7, 2011.

(202) 234-4433 NEALR. GROSS COURT REPORTERSANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLANDAVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-44332-104 1 Q Okay. And, clearly, that dates almost 2 a full year after this case began. 3 A True, yes. 4 Q Okay. Can you read just the first 5 sentence of that? 6 A Just under "Dear Mr. Sweetn? 7 Q Yes. 8 A "This is in response to your July 23, 9 2008 request for a legal interpretation.n 10 Q Okay. Do you-- I'm a little confused, 11 but, I mean, is it typical, do you think, for the 12 FAA to take three and a half years to reply to a 13 request? 14 MR. BOBERTZ: Objection, calls for 15 speculation, outside of the witness' scope of 16 knowledge. 17 JUDGE GOODWIN: I'll sustain that 18 objection. It's also not helpful to the 19 deliberations. 20 MR. QUINN: Given that this letter was 21 a year after the incident in question, I don't 22 believe it has any merit in this case.

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1 JUDGE GOODWIN: Well, that would be 2 argumentwhich the Court will weigh in considering 3 the value to be given to the exhibit. 4 MR. QUINN: Am I able to submit an 5 exhibit? 6 JUDGE GOODWIN: You can offer it, show 7 it to Mr.

-- FAA counsel. 8 MR. BOBERTZ: This is another FAA legal 9 interpretation that the Court would, presumably, 10 take judicial notice of. So 11 JUDGE GOODWIN: No, but the Court 12 doesn't have it. Let me take a look at it. 13 MR. QUINN: I'm sorry, I didn't hear. 14 MR. BOBERTZ: The Judge wants to see it. 15 JUDGE GOODWIN: Yes, I just-- I'll do 16 this, do the same thing I did with the 2150 order, 17 I'll receive this but take judicial note of that. 18 The reason I'11 take this makes it 19 easier to look at the hard copier, but I'11 review 20 the original online before I make a decision on 21 it. 22 (Whereupon, the document was marked

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1 for identification as 2 Respondent's Exhibit No. R-1.) 3 JUDGE GOODWIN: Do you have any 4 objection to me receiving it? 5 MR. BOBERTZ: I do not. 6 JUDGE GOODWIN: Okay. Respondent's 1 7 for identificationwill be received into evidence 8 as Respondent's 1. 9 (Whereupon, the document that was 10 previously marked for 11 identification as Respondent's 12 Exhibit No. R-1, was received in 13 evidence.) 14 JUDGE GOODWIN: If that's the only copy 15 you have, and you want to use it with the witness, 16 and show it to him, and then when you are done 17 bring it to me. 18 MR. QUINN: It is the only copy, but I 19 can -- 20 JUDGE GOODWIN: Okay. 21 MR. QUINN: make copies. 22 MR. BOBERTZ: If he's goingto cross the

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.. NW WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-44332-107 1 witness with it, I'd like to have it in front of 2 me as well. 3 JUDGE GOODWIN: Okay. When he's 4 finished-- he's only got the one copy, so, you 5 know, he can ask questions based on that, you can 6 review it. When the examinationis done the Court 7 will take the document. 8 MR. BOBERTZ: May I have a few moments 9 to review it before, so I can see it before he 10 does cross examination with it? 11 (Whereupon, Counsel was proffered the 12 document.) 13 MR. BOBERTZ: Thank you, Your Honor. 14 I would, actually, and I wouldalso ask 15 that the same courtesy be given to Inspector 16 Kanae, to review the document before he's cross 17 examined with it. 18 JUDGE GOODWIN: Sure. 19 (Whereupon, the witness was proffered 20 the document.) 21 THE WITNESS: Okay, I've read it 22 through. It will probablytake a littleminute or

(202) 234-4433 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERSANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLANDAVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-44332-108 1 two to comprehend everything. 2 JUDGE GOODWIN: Why don't you go to one 3 of the mics anyplace. Why don't you go to the mic 4 at the podium and you can probably pick it up 5 there

.. It's an acoustical problem. 6 BY MR. QUINN: 7 Q Inspector Kanae, would you agree that 8 this is a Federal Aviation interpretationof the 9 FAR in question? 10 A Yes, I agree. 11 Q I'll bring this over, but I've 12 highlighted some areas here. And, I'd like for 13 you to just read the part where it says, "To keep 14 it current, and to have it accessible.n 15 MR. BOBERTZ: Objection, Your Honor. 16 The document speaks for itself, and I don't know 17 that we need to have it read into the record. 18 MR. QUINN: I'll read it then. 19 JUDGE GOODWIN: Drawhis attention, show 20 him the document, ask him to review it, and then 21 you ask your question. 22

(202) 234-4433 MR. QUINN: Okay. I'm reading it now,

NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERSANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLANDAVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-44332-109 1 and it says, "137(b) requires each person who is 2 furnished a manual, or a part of a manual, to keep 3 it current and to have it accessible when 4 performing assigned duties." 5 BY MR. QUINN: 6 Q I think you testified earlier 7 MR. BOBERTZ: Objection, Your Honor. 8 It's very difficult, I think, for the witness to 9 not have the document in front of him when I know 10 he's being read portions of it. But

-- 11 JUDGE GOODWIN: Well, he hasn't asked a 12 question yet. Once the question is asked, we"ll 13 deal with it. 14 MR. QUINN: I'll let him read that 15 particular section while we are talking about it. 16 17 BY MR. QUINN: 18 Q But, I think, Inspector Kanae, you 19 alreadytestifiedthat therewas no traininggoing 20 on during this visit. 21 A 22 Q

(202) 234-4433 That's correct. Right.

NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERSANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLANDAVE., NW WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-44332-110 1 Are you suggestirg that his meeting 2 with you was to assign duties? 3 A Well, let me put it this way. I'll 4 reverse that, it was my duty and responsibilities 5 to conduct an inspecticn, and, therefore, I was 6 there to do the inspection. 7 Q Can you elaborate on what requiredyou 8 to fly from Hawaii to Florida, during a period 9 when there was no training going on? 10 A Again, I

-- 11 Q And then, to fly from Florida to 12 California, to meet with us? 13 A -- sure, that's part of my duties and 14 responsibilities, to conduct inspections over the 15 air carrier that I have oversight of, regardless 16 of where each of the training site is, by 17 following site, operation base site is, it does 18 not matter. If I'm assigned to that carrier, 19 wherever the carrier operates, I do need to 20 conduct surveillance as part of my duties and 21 responsibilities. 22 Q Wouldn't it have been more appropriate

(202) 234-4433 NEALR. GROSS COURT REPORTERSANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLANDAVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-44332-111 1 to have done that during the period of training, 2 which goes on a couple of times a year? 3 A Not**necessaril~** because I could have 4 other duties as an Aviation Safety Inspector, 5 wherebyyour training, oryour company'straining, 6 may not align with my schedule as well. So, your 7 schedule and my schedule may not align with one 8 another. 9 Q All right. Then, let me ask this 10 question, because the FAA has toldme that you are 11

-- that 100 percent of your duties is towardsAPA, 12 that we have three full-time FAA inspectors, one 13 of whom you are, to our company. That was the 14 change when we moved to your office. 15 A Yes, that is correct. We are totally 16 assigned to Asia Pacific Airlines. 17 Q Okay. So, in light of that, can you 18 elaborate why you would fly all the way from 19 Honoluluto Florida, and then to Danville, just to 20 ask a handful of ATOS questions? 21 And, by the way, ask ATOS questions of 22 somebody not directly employed by Asia Pacific

(202) 234-4433 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERSANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323RHODE ISLANDAVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-44332-112 1 Airlines. 2 A Well, let me put it this way. Again, 3 it's my duties and responsibilities. I notified 4 Mr. Bob Resling weeks before that I would be 5 conducting the inspection. Before his passing, I 6 did notify him that I was going to be conducting 7 the inspection. 8 And so, it was set. Keep in mind that 9 we are funded accordingly to conduct these 10 inspections. I need prior approval prior to 11 leaving the office. Everything was prior 12 approved. 13 And that's, again, part of my duties 14 and responsibilities, to conduct surveillance. 15 Q Okay. 16 MR. QUINN: Can I ask Inspector

-- 17 JUDGE GOODWIN: You can ask anythingyou 18 want to. That doesn't mean I'll allow the 19 question. 20 MR. QUINN: Kanae to read more sentence 21 from this document? 22 JUDGE GOODWIN: Sure.

(202) 234-4433 NEAL R. GROSS COURTREPORTERSANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLANDAVE., NW. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-44332-113 1 Now, just so we've got a record, you've 2 pointed to an area, would you describe the Court 3 which area of the document you were -- one of the 4 reasons I do this, Mr. Quinn, is we are all here 5 ln a three-dimensional setting, and we know what 6 we are doing. But, somebody who on appeal is 7 reviewing the record, and I'll give you an 8 example, looked something up and said I want you 9 to look at this here, that, and you ask a 10 question. A person reading a transcript doesn't 11 have a clue what any of us are doing. 12 So, youpointedto the first page. Did 13 you point to a specific paragraph on the first 14 page? 15 MR. QUINN: I just asked him to read a 16 sentence, one sentence. 17 JUDGE GOODWIN: Okay. 18 MR. QUINN: Which is from the document. 19 JUDGE GOODWIN: All right. 20 MR. QUINN: Which you shouldbe able to 21 match it up with the exhibit. 22 JUDGE GOODWIN: Right.

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.. N.W. WASHINGTON. D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-44332-114

1 Mr. Kanae? 2 THE WITNESS: I believe Mr. Quinn has 3 asked me to read the last paragraph of this 4 interpretation on page 1-166. 5 Okay. I'll begin. "Does Part 6 121.137(b) require that the manual, or appropriate 7 parts of it, 'which the crew member must keep 8 current and have accessible,' be a personal copy 9 issued to the individual crew member." 10 Next sentence, "Apparently, some 11 certificateholder is to issue personal copies of 12 the manual to crew members, which they are then 13 required to keep current and carry with them when 14 flying." 15 Q That's enough. 16 So, it refers to crew members several 17 times in that sentence, I believe. 18 A Yes. 19 Q And, Part 137(b) is, specifically, 20 applicable to crew members. 21 A 22 Q

(202) 234-4433 Yes. And so, you have an FAA interpretation

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1 here that says that the crewmember is requiredto 2 keep their documents in order and have them 3 present when they are performing their duties. 4 MR. BOBERTZ: Objection. Counsel is 5 arguing that the interpretation-- it says what it 6 says. 7 JUDGE GOODWIN: The document speaks

-- 8 if this is a legal interpretationby the Agency, 9 the document speaks for itself. 10 MR. QUINN: It does. 11 JUDGE GOODWIN: So, to ask the witness 12 for his interpretation, actually, goes beyond his 13 expertise. That's, actually, the Court's 14 responsibility, is to take the regulation and 15 interpret it rightly or wrongly. 16 MR. QUINN: Okay. 17 Your Honor, would it be okay if I 18 scanned this particular document and email it to 19 everyone, such as 20 JUDGE GOODWIN: Do you 21 objection, Mr. Bobertz? 22 MR. BOBERTZ: I do not.

(202) 234·4433 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERSANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323RHODE ISLANDAVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 have any

(202) 234-44332-116

1 JUDGE GOODWIN: Okay. The Court doesn't 2 care-- if the Court doesn't receive it, it won't 3 consider it, but I'll give you the opportunityto 4 scan it and send it back. Just send it to, you 5 have my email address, Mr. Quinn, you have Mr. 6 Bobertz's, so scan it and send it by attachment, 7 email attachment, that will be fine. 8 MR. QUINN: ShouldI call it an exhibit? 9 JUDGE GOODWIN: Yes, it's marked as an 10 exhibit. Before you leave I'll mark it as Exhibit 11 R-1 for identification, and indicate that. 12 MR. QUINN: Okay, thank you. 13 If I may have just a moment to look 14 through some of this here. 15 I'm done. 16 BY MR. QUINN: 17 Q InspectorKanae, ln connectionwith, I 18 believe this case, but it could have been the 19 engine case, you submitted a form to the legal 20 folks, and it's entitled, "EISQB Violator Query 21 Results." Do you recall? 22 A

(202) 234-4433 Can I see the document?

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(202) 234-44332-117 1 probablyrecall if I see it, just by nomenclature 2 alone it would be difficult for me to

-- 3 mR. BOBERTZ: YourHonor, if this is the 4 only copy, I'd ask for an opportunity to again 5 review it. 6 JUDGE GOODWIN: Sure. Show it to Mr. 7 Bobertz first. 8 MR. QUINN: The document is containedin 9 one of the letters from Mr. Bobertz, the back and 10 forth letters that we've been sending. It was 11 attached as an exhibit to one of his letters. 12 MR. BOBERTZ: It would be helpful if I 13 knew which letter. 14 MR. QUINN: Give me a moment. 15 JUDGE GOODWIN: Why don't we do this, 16 let's take a quick five-minute break, while you 17 take a look at this. We'll pick up at this point. 18 19 I'm going to instruct the witness, you 20 are not to discuss your testimony during the 21 tenancy of your testimony. 22 THE WITNESS: I understand.

(202) 234·4433 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERSANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLANDAVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-44332-118 1 JUDGE GOODWIN: So, if you want to step 2 down, run to the men's room. 3 It's about 17 of, we are going to come 4 back on the record at ten minutes of 10:00. 5 That will give you, Mr. Bobertz, a 6 chance to 7 MR. BOBERTZ: I'll look for that. 8 (Whereupon, at 9:43 a.m., a recess 9 until 9:43 a.m.) 10 JUDGE GOODWIN: Back on the record. 11 I remind the witness that you are still 12 under oath. 13 Mr. Quinn? 14 MR. QUINN: Your Honor, the exhibit that 15 I would like to enter at this point lS in 16 connectionwith the engine case directly, but it, 17 basically, applies to both cases, when I get to my 18 further argument over the legal process involved. 19 JUDGE GOODWIN: You can offer it. It's 20 up to the

-- if the FAA will object. 21 MR. QUINN: Okay. And, it was submitted 22 to me by Mr. Bobertz ln one of his initial

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1 complaints. So, I'd like to

-- and, I'd like to 2 copy this and send it to everyone afterwards, but 3 I'll give this one to Clarence. 4 May I approach? 5 JUDGE GOODWIN: Yes. 6 Mr. Bobertz, on the bottomI'vewritten 7 R-2 for identification, and I'vemarkedthe second 8 page as one of two, and the first page is one of 9 two. 10 (Whereupon, the document was marked 11 for identification as 12 Respondents's Exhibit No. R-2.) 13 BY MR. QUINN: 14 Q Inspector Kanae, do you recognize this 15 document? 16 A Yes, I do now. 17 Q Is this document something that you 18 produced from your office in Honolulu? 19 A Yes. 20 Q And, is this something that you 21 supplied to Mr. Bobertz? 22 A

(202) 234·4433 Yes.

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1 Q It is. 2 A Well, let me put it this way. I 3 supplied it in the package of enforcement. 4 Q Okay. 5 A Whether it went to Mr. Bobertz, that's 6 7 Q This was part of the package. 8 A -- it was part of my package for the 9 investigation, correct. 10 Q Okay. Could you describe what exactly 11 this is? 12 A What this is is, it is a historical 13 record of Aero Micronesia's enforcement cases, or 14 enforcement actions. 15 Q Does it --doesn't it state at the top 16 that it's a violator results, violation results? 17 A It does say that, yes. 18 Q Do you believe that this is a complete 19 record of these cases, or just a summary? 20 A It's just a summary. It may be 21 updated. It may not be. It all depends on when 22 they updated this particular website.

(202) 234-4433 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERSANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLANDAVE., NW. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-44332-121 1 MR. BOBERTZ: Objection, Your Honor, to 2 the Administrator has no objection to the 3 foundation, you know, of this exhibit. It's an 4 FAA document, summarizing in some fashion 5 incidents that, perhaps, Mr. Kanae opened and 6 closed and got to Legal. The FAA has no objection 7 regarding the foundation of this document. 8 But, the FAA does object to its 9 relevance to this case. It's simply showing some 10 kind of summary of actions opened, closed, taken, 11 not taken, nothing to do with this particular 12 case, or even the engine case for that matter. 13 JUDGE GOODWIN: Well, Mr. Quinn, unless 14 it's being offered by the Administration to 15 justify the fine. 16 MR. QUINN: It is. 17 MR. BOBERTZ: It is not. Of course, my 18 question 19 JUDGE GOODWIN: Well, if the FAA is 20 representing that it was not used to support the 21 calculation of their fine, then it would not be 22 relevant.

(202) 234-4433 NEALR. GROSS COURT REPORTERSANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLANDAVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-44332-122 1 The fact that a case has been opened 2 and administratively closed would be prejudicial 3 to the Respondent, and the Court would not 4 consider it, unless in a particular case it was 5 part of the calculationused to show a history of 6 violations. 7 If a case is open and closed without 8 the result, the Court is not going to consider 9 that in this case, which works to your advantage. 10 MR. QUINN: It took some time for Asia 11 Pacific to get a delineationof the actual results 12 of these cases, to find out that it included a 13 warning that was inappropriately issued by the 14 Honolulu office, and was later retracted by that 15 office. 16 MR. BOBERTZ: Objection. 17 MR. QUINN: It includedabout a dozen-- 18 JUDGE GOODWIN: Mr. Quinn, if a warning 19 was issue and retracted, it is not relevant to 20 this case. 21 22

(202) 234·4433 The Court won't consider it. MR. QUINN: All right. JUDGE GOODWIN: If Mr. Bobertz were

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1 making that proffer, that he wanted to introduce 2 into evidence a warning, which was later 3 withdrawn, I would not allow the introduction in 4 the evidence. 5 MR. QUINN: I guess it gets to the 6 motivationof why the FAA office in Honoluluwould 7 send this type of document to the attorneys in the 8 first place. 9 JUDGE GOODWIN: The problem is that, in 10 the that comes under the purvlew of 11 prosecutorial discretion, which is the subject of 12 a great deal of wrangling in the newspapers. 13 Prosecutors have wide discretion bringing cases 14 and not bringing cases, and sometimes it's not 15 easy to understandwhy, whether it's this case or 16 any number of cases. 17 So, and the case law is that 18 prosecutors are given wide latitude, and inquiry 19 is not needed, into discretion as to why two, 20 apparently, identicalcases, one is prosecutedand 21 the other is not. 22 MR. QUINN: Well, I would agree with Mr.

(202) 234-4433 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERSANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLANDAVE., NW. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-44332-124 1 Bobertz, you know, I'll believe him when he says 2 he did not use this document in the calculationof 3 the penalties in these cases. But, I, certainly, 4 think that it was used as a reason to continue the 5 cases, when they should have been settled a long 6 time ago. 7 JUDGE GOODWIN: But, we are at the point 8 that that's my decision. 9 MR. QUINN: Okay. 10 JUDGE GOODWIN: And, I don't care about 11

-- the Court doesn't care about motivation. I 12 look at the facts. I look at the law, and that's 13 how I make a decision. And, whether it's ill14 advised to bring a case or not, ill-advised, then 15 I don't consider any of my cases. 16 MR. QUINN: Then may I ask, because I 17 was going to submit a similar document, which is 18 the same enforcement actions from the Oklahoma 19 Cityrepositorythat keeps these documents, that's 20 somewhatdifferent than the one that was submitted 21 by the Honolulu CMO. I don't know if it matters at 22 this point.

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1 JUDGE GOODWIN: But, the point is, if 2 Mr. Bobertz

-- if the Administrator did not use 3 those records in this case to calculate the 4 penalty, then I don't think it's relevant. 5 MR. QUINN: Okay. 6 JUDGE GOODWIN: You can offer it if you 7 want to. It's marked for identification, but I 8 wouldput no weight in the evidence, based on what 9 I've heard. 10 MR. QUINN: Well, in that case then, I'd 11 like to offer it, at least make it a matter of 12 record. 13 JUDGE GOODWIN: Well, it's been marked 14 for identification. It's part of the 15 administrative record. 16 MR. QUINN: This is a separate

-- 17 JUDGE GOODWIN: Well then, I'll mark 18 that as Respondent's], and are you offeringthat? 19 20 21 22

(202) 234-4433 (Whereupon, the document was marked for identification Respondent's Exhibit No. R-3.)

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(202) 234-44332-126 1 JUDGE GOODWIN: Has Mr. Bobertz seen 2 it? 3 MR. QUINN: I don't know. 4 MR. BOBERTZ: Was this part of the stack 5 you gave me a minute ago? 6 MR. QUINN: No. 7 MR. BOBERTZ: So no, I have not seen 8 this. 9 JUDGE GOODWIN: Just describe very 10 briefly what it is, what it purports to be. 11 MR. BOBERTZ: Well, I'll let me Quinndo 12 that. 13 JUDGE GOODWIN: Mr. Quinn, what is the 14 exhibit? 15 MR. QUINN: This is a document that we 16 receivedfrom the FederalAviationAdministration, 17 entitled, "EnforcementData for Aero Micronesia," 18 which is our -- 19 JUDGE GOODWIN: Corporate name? 20 MR. QUINN:

-- corporate name, for the 21 same period of time of the document that is 2 2 JUDGE GOODWIN: Whichis Respondent's 2 .

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.. N.W. WASHINGTON. D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-44331 MR. QUINN: --Respondent's 2. It just 2 has additional information. For example, it says 3 that no action was carried out on six, seven or 4 eight of these. Almost a dozen of these items 5 were no actions, they were simply cases that have 6 been started by the FAA and then took no action, 7 because there was no action to be taken. 8 JUDGE GOODWIN: Mr. Bobertz, have you 9 used any of that information in your calculations 10 for this case? 11 MR. BOBERTZ: I did not, and I would 12 objectbasedon this document, based on foundation 13 and relevance. 14 JUDGE GOODWIN: Mr. Quinn, are you 15 offering those two documents into evidence? 16 MR. QUINN: I would like to, yes. 17 JUDGE GOODWIN: Okay. Objection 18 sustained. They are marked for identification. 19 And, the reason is, Mr. Quinn, there's no evidence 20 that theywere used in any calculationsassociated 21 with this case. 22 MR. QUINN: Okay. So, it doesn'tmatter

(202) 234·4433 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERSANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLANDAVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005·3701 (202) 234·44332-128 1 then

-- 2 JUDGE GOODWIN: So, if the FAA tried to 3 offer them, I wouldn't allow them either. But, 4 they are part of the administrative record, so I 5 still need you to scan those and circulatethem to 6 Mr. Bobertz and myself. 7 MR. QUINN: Okay. 8 JUDGE GOODWIN: They are not in 9 evidence, they will not be considered for or 10 against either party, but they are a part of the 11 administrativerecord, becausethey'vebeenmarked 12 for identification. 13 MR. QUINN: Should I mark this second 14 one, or should you mark it? 15 JUDGE GOODWIN: Mark it as R-3. 16 MR. QUINN: Do you want me to do that, 17 or -- 18 JUDGE GOODWIN: It doesn't make any 19 difference. 20 MR. QUINN: Okay. 21 JUDGE GOODWIN: But, before you take 22 them, before we leave today I'd like to look at

(202) 234-4433 NEALR. GROSS COURT REPORTERSANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLANDAVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-44331 them just long enough to put a descriptor in 2 there. 3 MR. QUINN: Okay. I believe that I'm 4 finished questioning Inspector Kanae. 5 JUDGE GOODWIN: Redirect? 6 MR. BOBERTZ: Thank you, Your Honor. 7 Just briefly. 8 REDIRECT EXAMINATION 9 BY MR. BOBERTZ: 10 Q Inspector Kanae, did you mandate who 11 from Aero Micronesia would meet with you during 12 your inspectionin Florida, or didAero Micronesia 13 decide who would meet with you? 14 A Did I mandate? I just made the 15 arrangements with the staff both at Danville and 16 Florida that I'm arriving, when I'm arriving, and 17 to expect me at that particular time. 18 Q So, did you require that they provide 19 a particular person, or they decided who they 20 provided to meet you? 21 A Normally, becauseMr. Gazdanormallyis 22 the point of contact, he makes arrangements to

(202) 234·4433 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERSANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLANDAVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-44332-130 1 make sure that he meets me at the particulartime 2 that I show for the inspection or surveillance. 3 Along with that, so does the other 4 instructors and check airmen. 5 Q Okay. So, it made sense, because Mr. 6 Gazda was your point of contact for training at 7 that facility? 8 A Yes, he was. 9 Q Okay. What if someone-- what if Asia 10 Pacific had assigned someone else to meet you at 11 that facility? Would you have anything to say 12 over that? 13 A No, I would not, as long as I could 14 conductmy inspectionaccordingly, and that person 15 was able to accomplish an inspection that I was 16 conducting. 17 Q Okay. Thank you, Inspector. 18 MR. BOBERTZ: No further questions. 19 JUDGE GOODWIN: That's all of this 20 witness? Mr. Bobertz, do you anticipate any 21 rebuttal with this witness? 22 MR. BOBERTZ: Potentially, yes.

(202) 234-4433 NEALR. GROSS COURT REPORTERSANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLANDAVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-44332-131 1 JUDGE GOODWIN: All right. Well then, 2 slr, I'm just going to instructyou not to discuss 3 your testimony during the tenancy of the hearing. 4 You can step down. It's up to Mr. Bobertz whether 5 you can leave or not. 6 Mr. Bobertz, do you have any further 7 witnesses? 8 MR. BOBERTZ: No, Your Honor. 9 JUDGE GOODWIN: Okay. Mr. Quinn, do you 10 want to present your case? 11 MR. QUINN: Yes, I do. 12 JUDGE GOODWIN: Okay. Again, what I'll 13 do, Mr. Quinn, is ask you to stand and raise your 14 right hand and swear you in. 15 Please, be seated, and with permission 16 of the Administrator, Mr. Bobertz, I'm going to 17 take the foundationaltestimonyfrom yesterdayand 18 place it in the record at this point, meaning, Mr. 19 Quinn, you don't have to go throughwhere you went 20 to high school, and college, and so forth. 21 [THE TESTIMONY OF MICHAEL R. QUINN TAKEN ON 22 12/01/14 IS REPRODUCED HEREIN IN ITS ENTIRETY BY

(202) 234-4433 NEALR. GROSS COURTREPORTERSANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLANDAVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-44332-132 1 CONSENT OF THE PARTIES FOR JUDICIAL ECONOMY.] 2 WHEREUPON, 3 MICHAEL QUINN 4 was called as a witness by Counsel for the 5 Respondent and, having been first duly sworn, 6 assumed the witness stand, was examined and 7 testified as follows: 8 JUDGE GOODWIN: Pleasebe seated. State 9 your name for the record and spell your first and 10 last name, please. 11 THE WITNESS: Michael R. Quinn, M-I-C12 H-A-E-L, the initial R, Quinn, Q-U-I-N-N. 13 JUDGE GOODWIN: You're pro se, Mr. 14 Quinn. I'll give you some latitude. But 15 typically, I've actuallynever seen this done, but 16 typically there's a question and an answer, and a 17 question and the answer. But I'll allow you to 18 testify in a narrative form. 19 Correspondingly, I'll give the FAA 20 attorney a little more latitude on cross. 21 22

(202) 234-4433 THE WITNESS: That's fine. JUDGE GOODWIN: So tell your story in

NEALR. GROSS COURT REPORTERSANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLANDAVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-44332-133 1 the manner that you want to tell it. 2 DIRECT EXAMINATION 3 THE WITNESS: A little bit about my 4 history. I startedflying when I was 12 years old 5 on my grandfather's farm. I went to an aviation 6 college, the oldest one in the country, Parks 7 College. 8 After college, I went into the Navy and 9 became a Naval officer flying off of aircraft 10 carriers. I did that for seven or eight years. 11 Subsequent to that, I began flying for Braniff 12 International out of Dallas, Texas flying 727s, 13 DC-8s, eventually moving into management at 14 Braniff. 15 They went bankrupt in 198 2 and I 've 16 been pretty much on my own ever since. Heavily 17 involved in large commercial aircraft, 727s, DC18 8s, 747 freighters; I've been involved in 19 converting a number of airplanes. 20 Currently involved in converting a 21 large airplane. I founded Asia Pacific Airlines 22 approximately 16 years ago, and we've been

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.. N.W WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-44332-134 1 successfullyflying 727 freighters in the Pacific 2 arena for the last 15 years or so. 3 I was heavily involved in writing our 4 manuals. Exhibit 1, the load planning and weight 5 manifest, is a document that I designed and 6 created myself. 7 I do all the weight and balance 8 calculationson the airplane, or for the aircraft. 9 I'm a commercial pilot, type rated in 727, and 10 flew our aircraft up until I turned 65 two years 11 ago. 12 And so I've flown the aircraft in 13 question, and I've flown the aircraft in question 14 with Continental's engines on it on more than one 15 occasion. 16 I received a letter from Clarence via 17 our attorney in Washington from Inspector 18 Kanae, excuse me regarding this particular 19 engine. And I would like to give a little bit of 20 background about how this process works between 21 Continental and United airlines. 22 Ms. Flores testified to some of it.

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1 Continentalhas a unit of people based on the east 2 side of the field, of the airport in Guam who 3 packages and prepares documents for items that 4 Continental wants to ship. 5 And they notify Asia Pacific Airlines 6 that they have an engine. We say, "Fine, we've 7 done that before." The engine is brought to us on 8 the west side of the field along with the 9 documents. 10 In this particularcase, the enginewas 11 delivereda bit late. The crew was already in the 12 process of settingup the flight. And when we saw 13 the documents, the airway bill and the documents 14 on the engine we said, "Hey, wait a minute. This 15 eng1ne is too heavy for us to carry.'' 16 We're well aware of the limitations of 17 our airplanes. We're well aware of the 10,000 18 pound limit for the pallet position number 8 in 19 which the engine was loaded. We don't contest 20 that. 21 We went back to Continental and said, 22 "You've got to take some stuff off this engine and

(202) 234-4433 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERSANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLANDAVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-44332-136 1 get the weight down, which they did." That's the 2 316 pounds that wound up on a separate pallet in 3 the back of the airplane. 4 Over the years, to the knowledge of the 5 people that worked for me in Guam, Continentalhas 6 never weighed one of these engines because their 7 scales don't go that high in Guam, or did not at 8 that time. 9 They've subsequently got a new scale, 10 in part as a result of this investigation. So I 11 guess there's some benefit to it. 12 There was other things involved here. 13 This particular flight was scheduled to fly from 14 Guam to Ponape and then to Majuro, and then to 15 Honolulu since our aircraft doesn't have the 16 capability of flying to Honolulu non-stop. 17 Andwe were constrainedthat dayby the 18 fact that they were doing work on the runway on 19 Ponape and they were going to close the airport. 20 And everybody was in a panic to try to get this 21 paperwork done correctly. 22 We were confident that after they took

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.. N.W. WASHINGTON. D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-44332-137 1 the weight off the engine, even though the casters 2 were still on, that we were under 10,000 pounds. 3 We have already agreed with the FAA that the 4 paperwork was incorrect. 5 That said, I would say that it's a 6 common practice to spread weights that weigh more 7 than an individual pallet position over multiple 8 positions. In this case, the three positions 9 involved were positions seven, eight and nine. 10 And as already has been testified, the 11 engine was in position eight, and I believe that 12 InspectorKanae saidthat positions seven and nine 13 were empty. 14 And so themaximumweights across those 15 three positions are something like a little bit 16 more than 28,000 pounds that you would have been 17 able to put in those three positions. 18 That said, in order to do this 19 properly, if the engine had actuallyweighedmore 20 than 10,000 pounds, you would have had to put it 21 on a pallet and braced it to where some of the 22 weight was actuallyin the otherpalletpositions.

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1 I'm not sure if I'm making that 2 entirely clear. Do you know what I'm saying? 3 JUDGE GOODWIN: Yes. So from my 4 standpoint, some of the weight would have to be in 5 zone seven or nine? 6 THE WITNESS: Right. And it couldhave 7 just been a few inches in. 8 JUDGE GOODWIN: Right, I understand. 9 THE WITNESS: But it would have had to 10 have been some kind of a bearing on the floor. 11 JUDGE GOODWIN: Right, okay. 12 THE WITNESS: We were confident that 13 the engine weighed less than 10,000 pounds. The 14 paperwork didn't reflect that necessarily; the 15 paperwork was filled out incorrectly. 16 And we had to get the flight off. We 17 didn't have enough time to get all this paperwork 18 done. Inspector Kanae testified that it takes 19 about 15 minutes to do the weight and balance 20 sheet. And yes, sometimes you can get it done in 21 15 minutes. 22

(202) 234-4433 Sometimes it takes 20 or 25, it's a

NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERSANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLANDAVE., NW. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-44332-139 1 complicateddocument. And so for at least a year 2 or two, we've agreed to be fine for having a 3 paperwork error. But only if they drop the 4 overweight engine charge, because in our view, 5 they have absolutely no evidence that it weighed 6 more than 10,000 pounds. 7 And I can assert that the engine was 8 not weighed in Guam because at the time, they 9 didn't have a scale to weigh somethingthis heavy, 10 or as heavy as they claim it to be. 11 Anotheraspect of this is that whilewe 12 believe it's important to toe the line and run 13 these guidelines, we have an aircraft that takes 14 off at 100 tons, 200,000 pounds. It carries 15 55,000 pounds of cargo; 400 pounds is nothing in 16 the scheme of things. 17 It's a very, very minor amount of 18 weight in context of what we do. I've described 19 it as the government coming after us for doing 31 20 miles an hour in a 30 zone. That's about the 21 equivalent of it. 22 And so after Inspector wrote me the

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.. N.W. WASHINGTON. D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-44332-140 1 letter saying he was starting the investigation, 2 I replied to him two weeks later. And he says 3 that he never got that letter, however the FAA 4 gave it as part of their evidence later that year 5 when they made their case. 6 And my problem with this is that I 7 wrote my letter to Inspector Kanae, I showed him 8 evidence of what the engine weighed. I showed him 9 evidence of what the stand weighed with the 10 casters on it. It came out to less than what they 11 were asserting. 12 And even after we added back in the 13 pallet weight, the weight of the wood supports and 14 the nets, it still was less than 10,000 pounds, 15 and he never replied to that. 16 And typically, in my 35 years in this 17 business, the FAA wouldn 1t just ship somethingoff 18 to the legal team. They would call you and say, 19 you know, are you going to respond to my letter or 20 did you respond or what. They would send an email 21 before sending it off. 22 And so when I didn 1t hear back from

(202) 234-4433 NEALR. GROSS COURT REPORTERSANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLANDAVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-44332-141 1 InspectorKanae, I assumedthe case had gone away, 2 which is typically how a lot of these things 3 occur. So when I got the letter from Mr. Bobetz 4 six months later, I was shocked. 5 And not only was I shocked that 6 Inspector Kanae would ignore the evidence that I 7 had submitted, but that the attorneys would also 8 ignore it. And

-- 9 MR. BOBERTZ: Objecticn, calls for 10 speculation. 11 JUDGE GOODWIN: I understandthat, take 12 it into consideration. Overruled. 13 THE WITNESS: I have a lot of 14 experience with commercial engines. I'm not so 15 sure howmuch experiencethat InspectorKanae has, 16 but engines on an airplane, a commercial airplane, 17 you know, there's a bare engine. 18 Then there's certain equipment that is 19 normally shipped with an engine like fuel control 20 and a gear box. And then there's additional 21 equipment like generators and starters that 22 sometimes is shipped with an engine, sometimes

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.. N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005·3701 (202) 234·44332-142 1 it's not. 2 There's multiple pieces of equipment 3 generally called a quick engine change consisting 4 of plumbing, wires, ducting, all sorts of things 5 that all have weight. Sometimes they're shipped 6 with the engine, and sometimes they're not. 7 Continental did not keep a record of 8 what was on this engine or what was not on this 9 engine. We searched for it in hopes of proving 10 our case, and they said they don't keep that 11 record. 12 What they do when they have an engine 13 is theypull somethingout of the drawer that says 14 the engine weighs this, the stand weighs this, 15 they add it all up and they put the number on a 16 piece of paper. 17 This engine was never weighed in Guam; 18 it was never weighed in Honolulu. And as Ms. 19 Flores testified, there's no way to weigh an 20 individual, no way to weigh an engine. 21 I know that's a hard concept, but it's 22 not an approved procedure to take an engine and

(202)234·4433 NEALR. GROSS COURT REPORTERSANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLANDAVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005·3701 (202) 234·44332-143 1 set it down on the ground without it being on some 2 sort of a stand. And so the only way that you can 3 know what the engine weighs is you have to do an 4 audit of what's on it, the individual pieces, and 5 that was never done. 6 And this engine was covered, it clearly 7 is shown in the picture, Exhibit 2, that it was 8 covered. And so it's impossible to tell from 9 looking at this picture whether any of these items 10 were or were not on the airplane. 11 And so the FAA's case about this engine 12 being overweight is entirely speculative. And as 13 I said, we got in a hurry, we didn't do the 14 paperwork correct. And we've agreed for years to 15 pay a fine, but we don't agree to the level of the 16 fine and that's another separate argument. 17 And I have no objection to Ms. Flores 18 testifying in this case, but she was not involved 19 directly with this engine in question. And you 20 know, nothing that she said, in my Vlew, has a 21 bearing on this particular case. 22 She's observed other engines, she's

(202) 234-4433 NEALR. GROSS COURT REPORTERSAND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLANDAVE., NW WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-44332-144 1 observedvarious bits and pieces of it, but never 2 collectivelythis engine. And as I've said, we've 3 carried engines, they've spread across a lot of 4 different weights. And it's our firm view that 5 this engine did not weighmore than 10,000 pounds. 6 And I think that'sprobablyall I have. 7 JUDGE GOODWIN: Mr. Bobertz, any 8 inquiry? 9 MR. BOBERTZ: Yes, thank you, Your 10 Honor. 11 CROSS EXAMINATION 12 MR. BOBERTZ: So Mr. Quinn, you 13 testifiedthat you contacted, you got the engine, 14 the documents, and you saidyou knew it was wrong; 15 the engine wasn't over 10,000 pounds. So you 16 asked Continental to remove some weight and they 17 did, 316 pounds, isn't that correct? 18 THE WITNESS: Yes. 19 BY MR. BOBERTZ: 20 Q So I'm looking at Administrator's 21 Exhibit A-5 and I see that. I see that 316 pounds 22 was actually removed on ContinentalAirlines Unit

(202) 234-4433 NEALR. GROSS COURT REPORTERSANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323RHODE ISLANDAVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-44332-145 1 Load Device, two pieces were removed. 2 And then looking at Exhibit A-6 as 3 we've talked before, the remaining weight from 4 that 10,400 pounds was 10,084. And when you add 5 the pallet and the straps and whatnot of 458 6 pounds, you get to 10,542 pounds. 7 So I guess I'm a little confused 8 because you're saying you didn't have time to 9 correct the documents, but yet apparently United 10 or Continental went back and corrected this 11 document for you because now it shows 316 pounds 12 off here, and reducedthe engine weight according. 13 And there you have it. So it looks 1ike the 14 corrections you asked for were made by 15 Continental. 16 A Well, the document that I think you're 17 referring to is A-4, initially? 18 Q No, I'm looking at A-5 and A-6 where 19 they show that 316 pounds. It's also on your 20 document as well, A-4, you're correct, 316 pounds 21 removed from the total engine weight. 22 A

(202) 234-4433 You know, I don't question that. What

NEALR. GROSS COURT REPORTERSANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323RHODE ISLANDAVE., NW WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-44332-146 1 I questioned was that the weights that came over 2 originally, the 10,400 pounds on the airway bill, 3 which is what we got, was incorrect. From 4 previous experience and from the facts, I mean, I 5 guess it's hard for me to describe. 6 You know, the engine comes over, it's 7 sitting there. You got the flight crews rapidly 8 trying to figure out the paperwork. We're trying 9 to get the flight out because they're going to 10 close the airport and it's going to be delayed a 11 couple of days if that happens. 12 And we asked them to fix these things 13 and they scratched out some new numbers. But it 14 started from not from weighing anything but from 15 a file in a drawer. 16 Q So how do theyhave time to scratchout 17 the new numbers but not correct the original 18 startingweight? They have time to glve you a -- 19 A Because that would have requiredgoing 20 back across the field and having a new airwaybill 21 because people on our side of the field don't do 22 airway bills.

(202) 234-4433 And it takes 15 or 20 minutes

NEALR. GROSS COURT REPORTERSAND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLANDAVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-44332-147 1 probably to get from one side of the field to the 2 other. 3 Q So you said you requested corrected 4 bills, or corrected documents. So you're saying 5 that the Exhibits 5 and 6 were corrected, but that 6 Exhibit A wasn't. But you did ask Continental for 7 corrected documents. 8 So where is the corrected version, 9 albeit maybe you didn't wait for

-- you took off 10 before you got it. Where is the corrected 11 document from Continental then? 12 A Well, you know, Exhibit 4 is an Asia 13 Pacific document. And we believe that that 14 document is based on information that we were 15 provided by, and I'm going to assume this is 16 Continental Cargo as opposed to the shipping 17 group, after we asked them to remove some things 18 from this engine. 19 And Exhibits 5 and 6, I honestly don't 20 know how exactly they're connected other than the 21 fact that it shows the 316 pounds migrating on to 22 this separate pallet.

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1 Q So you're saying you're so sure the 2 weight was wrong, yet you didn't even correct your 3 own document, your own cargo manifest to show the 4 correct weight. 5 A Now, we've admitted to the fact that 6 the paperwork is incorrect. We were in a 7 difficultposition. Continentalwas sayingplease B take our engine, we need to get it out, we're in 9 a hurry. We're trying to get the flight out. 10 We operate in a very difficult 11 environment, okay? And we were satisfied that we 12 had questionedthem on the engine, that we had got 13 them to reduce it below 10,000 pounds. 14 Then we got bogged down in trying to 15 get the paperwork correct because at APA there's 16 several people involved, but there's also several 17 people on both sides of the airport at Continental 18 that are involved, that you know, that are 19 responsible for getting the paperwork right. 20 We eventuallydecided, and you know, we 21 will allow that it's a mistake although a minor 2 2 one, we left with incorrect paperwork. We didn't

(202) 234-4433 NEALR. GROSS COURT REPORTERSANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLANDAVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-44332-149 1 have the 20 minutes to re-do the Exhibit 1 or to 2 get a new airway bill typed up and across the 3 field back and forth. 4 I mean, that's a process; gettinga new 5 airway bill probably would have taken an hour at 6 best. 7 Q So you never got corrected documents, 8 is that what you're saying? 9 A Yes. 10 Q Isn't that because the documents that 11 we have in front of us are correct, that 12 Continentalprobably refused to correct documents 13 that were already correct? 14 A No, we don't believe they are correct. 15 Q Who did you contact at Continental to 16 get corrected documents? 17 A I'm going to guess that that was a 18 conversationbetweenMr. Walker and Rose Onedera. 19 That would have been the beginning of the process 20 now. 21 Rose probablymight have contactedMs. 22 Flores, I don't know, or somebody in her office.

(202) 234-4433 NEAL R. GROSS COURTREPORTERSANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLANDAVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-44332-150 1 And they would have gone back and forth on this. 2 But as I said, we've carried other engines 3 successfully and properly for Continental for 4 years. 5 (Off microphone comments) 6 MR. BOBERTZ: One moment please, Your 7 Honor. 8 JUDGE GOODWIN: Sure. 9 THE WITNESS: I guess the substance of 10 my argument is that this engine 11 MR. BOBERTZ: Your Honor 12 THE WITNESS: could have weighed 13 plus or minus 1,000 pounds depending on what was 14 attached to it and what was not attached to it. 15 There is no record of what was attached to it or 16 what wasn't attached to it. The engine was never 17 weighed, period. 18 And so there's no evidence whatsoever 19 that would prove that this engine weighed 20 anything. It came off a piece of paper in 21 somebody's file over in Continental saying the 22 engine weighed X. And where that number came

(202) 234-4433 NEAL R. GROSS COURTREPORTERSANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLANDAVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005·3701 (202) 234·44332-151 1 from, I have no idea. 2 MR. BOBERTZ: Your Honor, may I 3 approach? 4 JUDGE GOODWIN: Sure. 5 MR. BOBERTZ: I have what's beenmarked 6 for identification purposes as Administrator's 7 Exhibit A-10, 11, and 12. B (Whereupon, the above-referred to 9 documents were marked as Administrator'sExhibits 10 A-10, A-11, and A-12 for identification.) 11 MR. BOBERTZ: Mr. Quinn, can you tell 12 me -- 13 THE WITNESS: I'm objecting to-- 14 (Simultaneous speaking) 15 MR. BOBERTZ: what ExhibitA-10 is? 16 JUDGE GOODWIN: Well, let's get 17 MR. BOBERTZ: Mr. Quinn, can you tell 18 me what Exhibit A-10 is? 19 20 21 22

(202) 234-4433 THE WITNESS: Do I have it? MR. BOBERTZ: I just gave it to you. THE WITNESS: Okay, but I object to it. JUDGE GOODWIN: Well, it hasn't been

NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERSANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLANDAVE.• N.W. WASHINGTON. D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-44332-152 1 offered, so the objection is premature. 2 THE WITNESS: It has no bearing 3 whatsoever on the case in hand. 4 MR. BOBERTZ: Mr. Quinn, can youplease 5 tell me what Exhibit A-10 is? 6 THE WITNESS: I have A-ll, 12 and oh 7 10. Iguessthat'slO. Okay. Yourquestionwas? 8 BY MR. BOBERTZ: 9 Q Can you please tell me what this 10 document is? 11 A It's anAsia Pacific'sloadplannerand 12 weight manifest. 13 Q And when is it dated? 14 A April 3rd, 2011. 15 Q It's hard to tell whether it was April 16 3rd, 2011 or March 4th, 2011. One was writtenand 17 one was scratched. So eitherway, it was April or 18 May 2011. 19 Mr. Quinn, to me this looks awfully 20 similar, close in time and awfully similar. You 21 just testified that you've been doing this for 22 years, you've never carried overweight engines.

(202) 234-4433 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERSANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLANDAVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-44332-153 1 Yet, within a month plus or minus of 2 the case at hand, we have another engine 9,500 3 pounds and then shown spreadacross two zones with 4 equal weight shown on either side. Yet you just 5 said you carried engines all the time and you 6 don't carry overweight engines. 7 A I don't believethis has anybearingon 8 the case at hand. That said, this was never 9 presented to us. We never had a chance to look 10 into it. I have no idea what the crew was 11 thinking, what they were doing, what was said or 12 what was said or what was not said. 13 Q Mr. Quinn

-- 14 A We get into a bind with these things. 15 But this engine wouldn't have been weighed either 16 because they didn't have a scale or the abilityto 17 weigh the engine. They have multiple people 18 putting these documents together. 19 They frequentlycome to us wrong andwe 20 do our best to try to get them corrected in time. 21 And sometimes we fail to get them corrected in 22 time.

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.. NW. WASHINGTON. D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-44332-154

1 Q So Mr. Quinn, can you please look at 2 Exhibit A-ll? And isn't that another engine 3 shipment, this one in two pieces, a gross weight 4 of 10,750 pounds? 5 A Same response. 6 MR. BOBERTZ: Okay. YourHonor, I move 7 that Administrator's Exhibits A-10 and A-ll be 8 moved into evidence. 9 JUDGE GOODWIN: There's an objection. 10 I'm going to admit it, the objection is going to 11 go to the weight the Court's going to consider in 12 weighing the relevancy of the exhibits. 13 (Whereupon, the above-referred to 14 documents were received into evidence as 15 Administrator's Exhibits A-10 and A-11.) 16 JUDGE GOODWIN: This is an 17 administrative proceeding, there's a little more 18 latitude given in the admissionof the documents. 19 It'll go to the weight that the Court. I don't 20 show that I admitted Exhibit 9, or that it was 21 offered. 22

(202) 234·4433 MR. BOBERTZ: Thank you, Your Honor.

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1 If we didn't at the time, that was the photo of 2 the engine that Ms. Flores testified about. And 3 the Administrator would offer Exhibit A-9 into 4 evidence. 5 JUDGE GOODWIN: Do you have any 6 objection to that, Mr. Quinn? It's the one of 7 just happens to be an engine. 8 THE WITNESS: Fine. I mean, I don' t 9 have any objection to it, but it doesn't tell us 10 anything. It's another engine wrappedwith a tarp 11 and where you can't tell what is on it or what is 12 not on it. 13 JUDGE GOODWIN: Right, understandthat. 14 The Court takes note. 15 (Whereupon, the above-referred to 16 document was received into evidence as 17 Administrator's Exhibit No. A-9.) 18 JUDGE GOODWIN: Anything else? 19 THE WITNESS: I have nothing. 20 MR. BOBERTZ: No, I'm sorry, Your 21 Honor. Still a few more. So Mr. Quinn, Exhibit 22 A-1, the Load Planner Weight Manifest, you

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1 testified that you took of with it knowingly 2 incorrect because you didn rt have the time to 3 correct it. Did you correct it after the fact, 4 then? 5 THE WITNESS: Well, I didn't take off 6 with it; the flight crew took off with it. And 7 typically, they would not correct it once the 8 flight took off. It becomes a matter of record, 9 we're required to keep these for 90 days on file. 10 And all I can say is that since the 11 paperwork from Continental never got corrected, 12 they wouldn't have had anything else to base a 13 correctionon. And again, you know, the amount of 14 pounds that are over here are tiny and 15 insignificantgiven the size of this airplane and 16 the fact that we could have carried nearly 30,000 17 pounds in position, in these three positions. 18 Q Mr. Quinn, are you familiar with how 19 the engineers calculate the maximum load for a 20 particular cargo area? 21 A 22 Q

(202) 234-4433 Yes, I am. And how did they do that?

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.. N.W. WASHINGTON. D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-44332-157 1 A It's complicated. They're engineers. 2 They have metal studies, but they always calculate 3 in 10 or 15 percent gravy over what they really 4 think the numbers are. 5 Q And why is that? 6 A And then they round the numbers to make 7 them easy to work with rather than having, you 8 know, individual four digit numbers. It's not 9 unlike a passenger carrier. 10 You have a 777 that holds 350 people. 11 They don't weigh every person and every bag that 12 goes onto the airplane. They have a round number 13 that they use. And on any given day, on an 14 airplane of that size it could be off by several 15 thousand pounds, plus or minus. 16 And we all live with that. And 17 typically in the cargo business, we all live with 18 a little laxity with respect to the numbers from 19 time to time. That's just the way it is. There's 20 absolutely no way that you could adhere to 21 everything that's out there. 22 I could give you another example. You

(202) 234-4433 NEALR. GROSS COURT REPORTERSANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLANDAVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-44332-158 1 know, the rules say that we're supposed to weigh, 2 calculate the center of gravity of every single 3 one of these pallets, that the center of gravity 4 of every single pallet has to be within a certain 5 distance of the center. 6 Nobody does that. That would be 7 impossible. You would never get anything shipped 8 if you had to do that. You put, you know, the 9 boxes and the engines and the cargo that you're 10 carrylng and you put it on there based on 11 eyeballing it so that it's not all on one end. 12 You know, you don't put all the books 13 on one end and all the feathers on the other end. 14 MR. BOBERTZ: I have no further 15 questions. 16 JUDGE GOODWIN: Okay. Any additional 17 testimony, Mr. Quinn? 18 MR. QUINN: No. No, thank you. 19 [END OF EXCERPT. HEARING CONTINUES.] 20 MR. QUINN: Do you want me to do my 21 name? 22 JUDGE GOODWIN: Yes, do yourname, spell

(202) 234-4433 NEALR. GROSS COURT REPORTERSAND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLANDAVE., NW WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-44332-159 1 your name for the record, and then

-- 2 MR. QUINN: MichaelR. Quinn, M-I-C-H-A3 E-L, middle initial is R, Quinn, Q-U-I-N-N, and 4 I'm the President of Aero Micronesia, doing 5 business as Asia Pacific Airlines. 6 Whereupon, 7 MICHAEL QUINN 8 was called as a witness by the Respondent, and 9 having been first duly sworn, testified as 10 follows: 11 DIRECT EXAMINATION 12 MR. QUINN: Clearly, from the testimony 13 and statements, Asia Pacific Airlines was going 14 through a very difficult period, during the time 15 frame that this event occurred. 16 We are one of the smallest, if not the 17 smallest, Part 121 airlines in the United States, 18 having just three airplanes and 45

-- a total of 19 45 direct employees. 20 We perform an extremely valuable 21 service, not only to the United States and the 22 U.S. Postal Service, but also to several of the

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1 nations out in the Pacific that otherwisewouldn't 2 have cargo service or mail service in any timely 3 fashion. The Republic of the Marshall Islands, 4 the Federated States of Micronesia, the Republic 5 of Belau, the Commonwealth of the Marianas, and 6 also the territory of American Samoa. 7 JUDGE GOODWIN: Would you spell Belau, 8 please? 9 MR. QUINN: B-E-L-A-U, also known as 10 Palau, P-A-L-A-U. 11 As I think I've already pointed out, 12 the companywas in a process of switchingover its 13 training program in the fourth quarter of 2010, 14 and our Vice Presidentof Operations, a former FAA 15 inspector, passed away suddenly in the middle of 16 that. 17 And, ratherthan givingus a littlebit 18 of latitude because of his death, Inspector Kanae 19 persistedwith his trip across the country to ask 20 a few questions, over the space of an hour or two, 21 and then fly to Danville 22 MR.

(202) 234-4433 BOBERTZ: Objectioo.,

NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERSANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLANDAVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 misstates

(202) 234-44332-161

1 testimony. 2 JUDGE GOODWIN: This is his testimony. 3 4 Objection overruled. 5 Go ahead. 6 MR. QUINN:

-- and then fly back and 7 take up some of my time when I was visiting and 8 had Mr. Resling's relatives in the office, trying 9 to settle his estate. 10 And, I think it would be safe to say 11 that I didn't appreciate it, we didn't appreciate 12 this. And, on the face of it, for this particular 13 case, Inspector Kanae did not say to APA or Mr. 14 Gazda that he wanted to inspect these particular 15 manuals, otherwise Mr. Gazda would have brought 16 them with him from his house 40 miles away to the 17 office, to the place of the meeting. 18 And, the place of the meeting was at 19 the Training Center. However, Mr. Gazda and the 20 other training instructors, and Asia Pacific, had 21 no office, had no space within that office. We 22 were allowedto meet there, but we had no place to

(202) 234·4433 NEAL R. GROSS .COURT REPORTERSANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLANDAVE., NW WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-44332-162 1 keep manuals, to keep any of our training 2 materials, to keep anything. That had all gone 3 back to Mr. Gazda's residence, which is 40 miles 4 away from the Training Center. 5 And, this case, this particular case, 6 has two parts. One is, did Asia Pacific Airlines 7 submit the manuals in a timely fashion to Mr. 8 Gazda, and the answer is, yes, we did, and we've 9 shown records indicating that. 10 The secondpart of it is, did Mr. Gazda 11 keep the manuals in order, and/or did he use these 12 manuals during training when they were not up to 13 date. And, the answer is, he may have been a 14 little lax in installing the revisions to these 15 manuals, but he had them, he acknowledgedhaving 16 them, and he conducted no training with the 17 manuals that are out of date. 18 And, the second part of the FAR 137(b) 19 clearlypoints the finger and is targeted towards 20 individual flight crew members, and instructors, 21 and training instructors such as Mr. Gazda. And, 22 once Mr. Gazda tells us that he has the manual,

(202) 234-4433 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERSANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLANDAVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-44332-163 1 then we have no other reason to believe that he 2 did not have them, no other reason to check that 3 he had them at that point, other than maybe during 4 a regular training class, which was not being 5 conducted. 6 Had Inspector Kanae gone to Florida 7 during a training session, and had these manuals 8 been sittingon the desk involved in the training, 9 then he would have a case, but that didn't happen. 10 And, it's mystifying to me, as the 11 President of a small airline, why the FAA would be 12 so persistenttrying to fine us, flipping back and 13 forth betweenone charge, then another charge, and 14 then a combinationof charges, over somethinglike 15 this, to the point of still having it carrying on 16 four years later, with people flying all over the 17 planet, hotel rooms, subpoenas, et cetera, et 18 cetera. It's just almost beyondbelief to me that 19 they would persist doing this. 20 And, ln fact, I think to some extent 21 the FAA has, actually, changed its procedures. 22 TheATOS, AirlineTransportationOversightSystem,

(202)234-4433 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERSAND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLANDAVE, N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-44332-164 1 was a mess, it was broken. It was never part of 2 the legal law of the FAA, and it was finally 3 MR. BOBERTZ: Objection, relevance. 4 JUDGE GOODWIN: Overruled. 5 MR. QUINN: and it was finally 6 abandoned by the FAA. 7 And so, other than my belief that the 8 regional counsel's office, headed up by Ms. Naomi 9 Tsuda, with whom Asia Pacific had had some 10 significant differences in the past, including a 11 case before yourself, Judge Goodwin, which the FAA 12 had to drop. 13 MR. BOBERTZ: Objection, relevance. 14 JUDGE GOODWIN: Sustained. I don't 15 if a case, again, as I said, there is a great 16 latitude in terms of prosecutorial discretion. 17 And, the Court puts no weight in whether a case 18 was brought, whether it was nolo prosequi'd, 19 whether it was -- I only look at the case before 20 me, and cases that are related, and was part of 21 the calculation for the fine. 22 The fact that they brought case and

(202) 234·4433 NEALR. GROSS COURT REPORTERSAND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLANDAVE., NW. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005·3701 (202) 234·44332-165 1 didn't pursue it is not relevant to anything 2 before me. 3 MR. QUINN: Except for after you 4 dismissed it with prejudice, Ms. Tsuda sent 5 mR. BOBERTZ: Objection, relevance. 6 MR. QUINN: sent a threatening 7 letter to me saying that we broke the law, and 8 that if we continue to do that she would come 9 after us on the same charge. 10 JUDGE GOODWIN: Well, that's-- there's 11 no evidence of that before me, so -- what else do 12 you have to offer? 13 MR. QUINN: I'm sorry? 14 JUDGE GOODWIN: Continue with whatever 15 you want to present. 16 MR. QUINN: The other other than 17 prejudice by the counsel's office in Los Angeles, 18 they've exaggerated the fines that they are 19 capable of assessing against our airline. They 20 are trying to tell us that we are part of a 4,000 21 person organization. I think that's absurd and 22 it's outrageous that they would come after us for

(202) 234-4433 NEALR. GROSS COURT REPORTERSAND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLANDAVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-44332-166 1 the same level of fines that they would put to 2 American Airlines or United Airlines, that have 3 100,000 people, and 600 airplanes, and fly 4 passengers, not boxes, or dead fish. 5 I have here a piece of paper sayingthe 6 FAA proposes a $547,000 civil penalty against 7 Hawaiian Airlines. I presume this is a fine 8 originated by the Honolulu CMO. 9 MR. BOBERTZ: Objection, relevance. 10 MR. QUINN: And, the relevance is, is 11 that here's a passenger airline. The FAA alleges 12 Hawaiian operated the aircraft more than 5,000 13 times with people on it for an airworthiness 14 directive that had not been completed. And, they 15 are fining, or proposing a $547,000 fine, which 16 comes out to $109.50 per incident, where Hawaiian, 17 ostensibly, put passengers at risk. 18 And, I have the FAA, and Ms. Tsuda, and 19 her outfit down inLos Angeles, claimingthat they 20 can charge us $27,000 per incident over a minor 21 paperwork error in training that really has no 22 merit, and I just think that's outrageous.

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1 We have 45 people in our company. The 2 FAA itself defines a small airline as 1,500 3 people, and so I can't

-- I can't get past their 4 argument that there's 4,000 people involved in 5 this airline. 6 I'm finished. 7 JUDGE GOODWIN: Any cross? 8 MR. BOBERTZ: Yes, thank you, Your 9 Honor. 10 CROSS EXAMINATION 11 BY MR. BOBERTZ: 12 Q Mr. Quinn, you testified that there 13 were two parts to this manual case. And, part of 14 it was that regardingAPA submittingrevisions to 15 its Chief on a timely manner. And, you asserted 16 that they did. 17 Can you please look at, I'll refer to 18 Administrator'sExhibitA-2, I'm sorry, ExhibitA19 4. And, referring to the GOM Manual, which was 20 issued, Revision 22 issued February, 2009, and 21 distributed to Mr. Gazda on October, 2010. I 22 think that's about 20 months later.

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1 So, are you saying that that is --Asia 2 Pacific distributed that manual in a timely 3 manner? 4 A The answer is that at some point when 5 we were doing all of this, we recognized that he 6 didn't have it, or we thought that he didn't have 7 it, so we resent it to him. 8 I believe I have a document here that 9 indicates that it was sent to him much earlier, 10 back in February or March of '09. I'm going to 11 have to look for it. 12 Q So, you are saying he sent it, 13 apparently, he had to send it to Mr. Gazda twice? 14 A Yes. 15 Q And yet, after sendingit to him twice, 16 it still was not in his manual when Inspector 17 conducted his inspection in December, 2010. And 18 yet, even after the inspection, it took until 19 January 21, 2011, for Mr. Gazda to, actually, 20 insert that revision in his manual. 21 A Well, it's like I said. You know, the 22 General Operations Manual is close to a 600-page

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.. N.W. WASHINGTON. D.C. 20005·3701 (202) 234·44332-169 1 manual. We've had revisions sent out. We send 2 the revisions out, the person receives the 3 revision. And, sometimes they sign this document 4 and send it back right away saying that they 5 received it, but they don't, actually, install it 6 in their manual, because that takes time. And, 7 you know, maybe they are going out to dinner, they 8 just got the mail, they sign this, they send it 9 back, and they throw the change in the manual in 10 a box, or on the shelf, or whatever. This is the 11 normal way that pilots and instructors do 12 business. 13 The question is, you know, what did he 14 do after that? Did he read it? Did he install it 15 in the manual? He's required by the law, by FAR, 16 to install it in the manual the next time he uses 17 the manual, which would have been in a training 18 session. 19 And, I have to assume that he did that. 20 There's no evidence that he didn't do it. There's 21 no evidence that he didn't take whatever this 22 particular change was into consideration.

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1 You know, sometimes, and I don't have 2 it in front of me, I don't know what this 3 revision, actually, entailed, but it could have 4 been a single page, it could have been just a 5 couple of pages in a 600-page manual. And, it 6 might have had, absolutely, no I'm searching 7 for the word

-- it might have been a change that 8 had no connection whatsoever to the actual 9 training of the pilot. 10 Q Mr. Quinn, isn't an air carrier, such 11 as yourself, requiredto operate it at the highest 12 standard of care? 13 A Yes, it is. 14 Q And, would you call your what appeared 15 to be a lackadaisical attitude about the manual 16 updates, operating at the highest standard of 17 care, throwing them in a box, perhaps, updating 18 them when you get around to it, 22 months later? 19 A You know, look, I can't speak for Mr. 20 Gazda. As I said, he's not a direct employee. I 21 would say that the airline has an obligation to 22 make sure that he has all the documents that are

(202) 234-4433 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERSANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLANDAVE., N.W WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-44332-171 1 required for our particulartraining, but he does 2 training for other people also. 3 Q Isn't Mr. Gazda in charge of your 4 training? 5 A I would say that he is not. 6 Q Who is in charge of your training? 7 A That would have been Mr. Resling, Vice B President of Operations at the time. 9 Q Didyou assignMr. Gazda to conduct the 10 inspection with Inspector Kanae in Florida? 11 A I personallydidn't, but I believe Mr. 12 Kanae said that he had discussed it with Mr. 13 Resling at some point. I don't know exactlywhen, 14 presumably, some time in November of 2010. 15 And, I would have, in turn, expected 16 Mr. Resling to make sure that Mr. Gazda had 17 everything that was required. 18 I don't knowexactlywhat happened, but 19 I would say that the subject was that Clarence, 20 that Mr. Kanae was going to visit Mr. Gazda to do 21 some ATOS questions, not examine actual training, 22 not to look at manuals, what have you.

(202) 234-4433 NEALR. GROSS COURTREPORTERSANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLANDAVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-44332-172 1 And so, I think that probably came as 2 a surprise. Otherwise, Mr. Gazda would have made 3 sure that his manuals were up to date. Mr. 4 Resling would have made sure that they were up to 5 date before they ever surfaced ln front of 6 Inspector Kanae. 7 And, you know, I don't know what else 8

-- what other type of action that the company 9 could have taken here. 10 Q Mr. Quinn, you also mentioned that 11 there was no -- I think you stated that there was 12 no trainingwith the manuals out of date. So, are ' 13 you saying that there was no trainingbetween the 14 time the manual was issued in February, 2009, both 15 manuals, for the GOM, Revision 22 issuedFebruary, 16 2009, the training manual Revision 6 issued 17 February 9, 2009, and 22 months later when 18 Inspector Kanae conducted his visit, his 19 inspection, and again, those revisionswere not in 20 the manual? So, there was no training conducted 21 for those 22 months? 22 A I didn't say that. What I said was, I

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.. NW WASHINGTON. D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-44332-173 1 believe, that when the normal training goes on, 2 our flight crew members are required to take the 3 General OperatingManual and one othermanual with 4 them to train, and that they are checked by the 5 training instructors for relevant revisions, and 6 that those are the General OperationsManuals that 7 are, actually, used during training. 8 I would also add that the GOM, while 9 there are parts of it that apply to training, it 10 wouldbe a minorpart of it. And, the instructors 11 themselves don't usually carry their own manuals 12 every time they go to training. They have them, 13 they study them, they read them, but they don't, 14 necessarily, take themto training. They don't use 15 them during training. They use the manuals that 16 the pilots have. 17 I have a letter here from Mr. Resling 18 to InspectorKanae, datedJune 12, 2009, referring 19 to, he says, "Enclosed you will find Revision 22 20 to our General OperationsManual." This wouldhave 21 been the point at which Mr. Resling would have 22 sent out Revision 22 to all parties.

(202) 234-4433 NEALR. GROSS COURT REPORTERSANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLANDAVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-44332-174 1 And, unfortunately, because after he 2 died I couldn't get access to everything on his 3 computer, because it was password restricted, I 4 couldn't, actually, access the documents that Mr. 5 Resling sent out. But, it's my belief that in 6 June of 2009, he sent out Revision 22 to all the 7 parties that were required to have them. 8 Q Let's go back to the training. So, let 9 me understand, the pilots themselves have their 10 own trainingmanuals, so you are sayingthat they, 11 or you are speculating that they likely had 12 manuals that were update, and they use those, not 13 the outdated manuals that they maintained at the 14 training facility? 15 A My crew members themselves would not 16 have the Flight Operations Training Manual. 17 Q Okay. 18 A You know, that's held by the company 19 and the instructors, Mr. Gazda. 20 21 22 Q Okay. A But, thatmanualwouldn't, necessarily, play any role in the day-to-day training. It

(202) 234-4433 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERSANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISlANDAVE., NW WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-44332-175 1 would depend on what the training was. 2 Q Do you know that it would not play a 3 role in the training? 4 A Do I know that? I don't think I can 5 assert 100 percent that it did not. It's a 6 complicated business and manual. 7 Q Isn't that part of the reason you 8 maintaintheirmanuals and you update them, so you 9 don't have to worry about whether there's 10 something they are going to miss or not. 11 A Well, you know, I think I pointed out, 12 with respect to the Flight Operations Training 13 Manual, that one of the changes involved simply 14 identifying the simulators in one of the 15 appendices, okay? And, this was something that 16 was done, I believe, as part of the transition 17 from the Part 142 school, who would have had to 18 maintain that record, over to the Asia Pacific 19 training program that we were trying to get done 20 during that period. 21 And, InspectorKanae, appropriately, I 22 think, said, you know, you need to have an

(202) 234-4433 NEALR. GROSS COURT REPORTERSANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLANDAVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-44332-176 1 appendix in your manual identifying the two 2 simulators. 3 Well, these are the same simulators 4 that we've been using for eight years, seven 5 years, I'm not sure exactly, but some length of 6 time, exactly the same simulators that they just 7 now had to be identified in our manual. That has 8 no bearing on the training, none. 9 And so, Mr. Gazda would have gotten 10 that revision, he would have looked at it and 11 said, okay, I see why they are doing this, this 12 goes in, but it wouldn't have changed anything 13 with respect to how the training was conducted. 14 MR. BOBERTZ: Your Honor, I have what's 15 been marked as Administrator'sExhibits A-9, A-10 16 and A-11. 17 18 19 20 21 22

(202) 234-4433 May I approach? JUDGE GOODWIN: Yes.

(Whereupon, the documents were marked for identification as Administrator's Exhibit Nos. A-9 A-ll.)

(Whereupon, the witness was proffered

NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERSANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLANDAVE., NW. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-44332-177 1 the documents.) 2 BY MR. BOBERTZ: 3 Q Mr. Quinn, I'vehandedyouwhat'sbeen 4 marked for identification purposes as 5 Administrator's Exhibit A-9; A-10, A-11. 6 StartingwithA-9, can you tell me what 7 that document is? 8 A Yes. It is a pilot proficiencyreport 9 for Mr. Gazda, dated June of 2010. 10 Q And, there's a part to the left circled 11 that says, "Check." What does that mean? 12 A I think that indicates that it was a 13 proficiencycheck, as opposed to a LOFT, which is 14 a separate function. 15 Q And, what is a proficiency check? 16 A That's a simulator period where the 17 instructorgets checkedby a different instructor 18 as to his proficiency in the airplane. 19 Q So, is this a recordof RichardGazda's 20 training for 6/15/2010? 21 A I think that's probably correct. 22 MR. BOBERTZ: Your Honor, I offer

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1 Exhibit Administrator's Exhibit A-9 into 2 evidence. 3 MR. QUINN: I'm not sure what the 4 relevancy of this is. 5 MR. BOBERTZ: The relevancy is that 6 there has been some discussion, and I believe 7 assertions on your part, that there wasn't 8 training going on with the outdated manuals, and 9 this shows Richard Gazda, in fact himself, the 10 person in charge of training for Aero Micronesia, 11 gettinghimself trainingin June of 2010, when, in 12 fact, he had the manuals in his possession that 13 were outdated. 14 MR. QUINN: Well, unless you can connect 15 some specific section of the FOTM that might have 16 been violated during this check ride, that 17 wouldn't

-- you know, that makes no sense. 18 MR. BOBERTZ: That's your argument. 19 JUDGE GOODWIN: Agency A-9 for 20 identification is received into evidence as 21 Exhibit 9. 22 (Whereupon, the document that was

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.. NW. WASHINGTON. D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-44332-179

1 previously marked for 2 identification as Administrator's 3 Exhibit No. A-9 was received in 4 evidence.) 5 JUDGE GOODWIN: We don't

-- Mr. Bobertz, 6 there's no Social Securitynumber or anythingelse 7 on this, is there? 8 Just let me, after the hearing just 9 take a quick look. Make sure we do not have home 10 address, home phone number, Social Security 11 number, anything else. I don't see anything. 12 MR. BOBERTZ: No, I don't either. 13 MR. QUINN: No. 14 JUDGE GOODWIN: And, if either you or 15 Mr. --and, I'll state to both of you, as you go 16 through the exhibits after the hearing, make sure 17 that we have not inadvertently put something in 18 there. 19 I had Ms. Matthews check everything, 20 and, you know, we are only human, and sometimes 21 phone numbers inadvertentlyget put in the record. 22 And, if you find something, send me an

(202) 234-4433 NEALR. GROSS COURT REPORTERSAND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLANDAVE., NW. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-44332-180 1 email. 2 MR. BOBERTZ: Okay. Thank you, Your 3 Honor. 4 BY MR. BOBERTZ: 5 Q Mr. Quinn, can you look at what's been 6 marked for identification as Exhibit A-10, and 7 tell me what that is? 8 A A-10? Okay. Is that one page, or 9 everything from there to the end? 10 Q You can start with the first page. 11 A Okay. 12 Q So, I see it says at the top, B-727 13 recurrent training. It looks like a name, Craig 14 Holmes, that's, perhaps, a summary of Mr. Holmes' 15 727 recurrent training. 16 A That's what it appears to be, yes. 17 Q Do you have any reason to doubt that 18 this is accurate? 19 A No, and I note at the bottom of the 20 page that it was reviewedby Mr. Resling, our Vice 21 President of Operations. 22 Q

(202) 234-4433 Okay. So, it looks like the various

NEALR. GROSS COURT REPORTERSANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISlANDAVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-44332-181 1 training dates have been all, actually, at least 2 on the first page, of May, 2010? 3 A Yes. 4 Q Andthen, the follow-update appears to 5 be more details regarding those specific 6 trainings. 7 A Yes. 8 MR. BOBERTZ: Your Honor, I move that 9 Administrator's Exhibit A-10 be entered into 10 evidence. 11 JUDGE GOODWIN: Mr. Quinn, any 12 objection? 13 MR. QUINN: No. 14 JUDGE GOODWIN: Exhibit Agency 15 Exhibit A-10 for identification is received into 16 evidence as A-10. 17 18 19 20 21 22

(202) 234-4433 (Whereupm, the document that was previously marked for identification as Administrator's Exhibit No. A-10 was received in evidence.) MR. BOBERTZ: Thank you, Your Honor.

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.. NW. WASHINGTON. D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-44332-182

1 BY MR. BOBERTZ: 2 Q And now, I would ask you to look at, 3 Mr. Quinn, what's been marked for identification 4 purposes as Agency Exhibit A-11. 5 A Okay. 6 Q On the top it says, "Pilot 7 Proficiency/Recurrent Training Qualification 8 Report,n name of airman? 9 A I see it, same document as ExhibitA-9, 10 except for a different

-- a different flight crew 11 member. 12 Q Okay. So, is that also, it looks like 13 a check airmen recurrent training, dated May, 14 2010? 15 A Yes. 16 MR. BOBERTZ: Your Honor, the 17 Administrator moves that Exhibit A-ll marked for 18 identificationpurposesasAdministrator'sExhibit 19 A-ll be moved into evidence. 20 21 Quinn? 22

(202) 234·4433 JUDGE GOODWIN: Any objection, Mr.

MR. QUINN: I have no objection to

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1 entering these, but they have absolutely no 2 relevance to the case. 3 JUDGE GOODWIN: Is the name on Exhibit 4 9 Gazda, G-A-Z-D-A? 5 MR. BOBERTZ: Yes. 6 JUDGE GOODWIN: Okay, thank you. 7 Agency 11 for identification is 8 received into evidence as Agency 11. 9 (Whereupon, the document that was 10 previously marked for 11 identification as Administrator's 12 Exhibit No. A-ll was received ln 13 evidence.) 14 MR. BOBERTZ: One moment, Your Honor. 15 No further questions, Your Honor. 16 JUDGE GOODWIN: Based on the questions 17 you were just asked, Mr. Quinn, is there apy 18 additional testimony that you want to present? 19 Again, it's just based on the questions that you 20 were asked. 21 22

(202) 234-4433 MR. QUINN: Is. that for me, sir? JUDGE GOODWIN: Yes.

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1 MR. QUINN: The only thing that occurs 2 to me is that this June 12, 2009 letter that I 3 referred to has not been entered into evidence, 4 and I would like to enter it. 5 JUDGE GOODWIN: What letter was that? 6 MR. QUINN: A letter from Mr. Resling, 7 our Vice President of Operations, to Mr. Kanae, 8 regarding the Revision 22 to the General 9 Operations Manual. 10 JUDGE GOODWIN: Okay, any objection to 11 it? 12 MR. BOBERTZ: I haven't seen it. 13 JUDGE GOODWIN: Okay. Mr. Quinn, after 14 you show him that, would you bring me all the 15 exhibits that we talked about in your case? 16 MR. QUINN: Yes. 17 JUDGE GOODWIN: Give Mr. Bobertz a 18 chance to look at that. 19 (Whereupon, Counsel was proffered the 20 document.) 21 MR. BOBERTZ: Yes, now that I've seen 22 this, we can talk about it. I am not ready to

(202) 234-4433 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERSANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLANDAVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-44332-185 1 admit it or not yet. 2 MR. QUINN: All I can say is this. If 3 Mr. Resling were alive he could testify at this 4 hearing. He isn't. We weren't able to access 5 everything that was on his computer, because it 6 was password protected. 7 MR. BOBERTZ: I'm sorry, letme correct, 8 I don't have any problem admitting this document. 9 I think the testimony, along with the document, 10 was that this was given to everybody, but it's, 11 actually, addressed, specifically, to Inspector 12 Kanae. So, there's no evidence that the Revision 13 22 was also sent to everyone else that I believe 14 the testimony indicated. 15 JUDGE GOODWIN: Well, to avoid the dead 16 man rule, I'm going to allow the exhibit to be 17 entered into evidence. But, the document is going 18 to speak for itself. 19 Mr. Quinn, the deadman rule relates to 2

### o someone who is not present to testifyby reason of 21 their demise, and it's a complex area. If this 22 was authored

-- well, the FAA is not objecting to

(202) 234-4433 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERSANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLANDAVE., N.W WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-44332-186 1 its admission, so it will be admitted. It will be 2 considered, and whatever it says, it says, and I'm 3 not going to allow any inquiry from either one of 4 you into what's beyond the four corners of the 5 letter. 6 MR. QUINN: I appreciate that, sir, but 7 also

-- 8 JUDGE GOODWIN: I mean, your testimony 9

-- you tried to get into the computer and couldn't 10 because it was passworded, and, certainly, that's 11 admitted. But, beyondthe contents of the letter, 12 the letter is going to speak for itself. 13 MR. QUINN: Well, other than you 14 know, other than our standardprocedure, whenever 15 a revision is finalized, we prepare packages, and 16 eitherMr. Reslingormyself, usuallyMr. Resling, 17 would prepare a package of distribution for our 18 office managers and send it out. 19 All this does is show that this is the 20 time

-- 21 JUDGE GOODWIN: Okay. Well, that's all 22 right.

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1 MR. QUINN: it acknowledges this 2 particular revision, and acknowledges that it was 3 sent to Mr. Kanae in June of 2009. 4 And, not being able to confer with Mr. 5 Resling, I assume that he sent it out to everyone 6 else at that point. I just don't have access to 7 records for it. 8 JUDGE GOODWIN: I understand. As I 9 said, the letter will speak for itself. 10 Anything else? 11 MR. QUINN: No, I have nothing further. 12 JUDGE GOODWIN: Okay. 13 MR. BOBERTZ: Is that R-3? 14 JUDGE GOODWIN: It's either R-3 or R-4. 15 I'm going to look at the documents. What I try to 16 do is make descriptors. 17 Mr. Bobertz, the first document is 18 interpretation 1988-7. I'm showing that as R-1 19 for identification, and I took judicial notice of 20 that. 21 MR. BOBERTZ: Yes. 22 JUDGE GOODWIN: The second document was

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1 2 MR. QUINN: Was the seconddocumentthat 3 list of

-- 4 JUDGE GOODWIN:

-- I'm checking, I'll 5 tell you what it is in a second. 6 MR. QUINN: Oh, okay. 7 JUDGE GOODWIN: I haven't mastered 8 typing and talking at the same time yet. 9 The second document is, in the upper 10 left-hand corner it says, "MYFAA Employee Site," 11 it's and EISQB Violator Query Results. The page 12 was printed on 5/10/2011, that was marked for 13 identification as R-2, and not received. 14 The next document the problem with 15 separating Exhibits 1 and 2 is, they have, 16 virtually, the same they are both EISQB 17 violator other results related to AWP213CK. The 18 only difference is the time stamp in the upper 19 right-hand corner. 20 Exhibit 2 has a time stamp of 5/10/2011 21 at 10:50:24 a.m., and the other 22 Respondent's

-- are these the same?

(202) 234-4433 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERSANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLANDAVE., N.W WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 one is

(202) 234-44332-189

1 MR. QUINN: No, that's the second page. 2 JUDGE GOODWIN: Oh, okay, all right, 3 then I need to-- okay, my error-- Respondent's 4 2 for identification is MYFAA Employee EISQB 5 Violator Other Query Results, by AWP213CK. It's 6 a two-page document. 7 And again, it was not received, and 8 I'll try to find a stapler somewhere here. 9 Respondent's 3 is a Aviation Data 10 Systems Branch/AFS 620 run, done on 11 April, 11 2012. It's a three-pagedocument, again, that was 12 not received. 13 And then the last one is a letter 14 I just realized that I forgot to explain in both 15 cases. The Court's methodologyis that I write ID 16 in pencil on the document when it's marked. When 17 I introduce it, I draw a line through ID and I put 18 the date. 19 So, Respondent's 4 for identification 20 is a letter dated June 12, 2009, over the 21 signature of Mr. Resling, addressed to Mr. Kanae, 22 and it's received into evidenceas Respondent's4.

(202) 234·4433 NEALR. GROSS COURT REPORTERSANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLANDAVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005·3701 (202) 234·44332-190 1 (Whereupon, the document was marked 2 for identification as 3 Respondent's Exhibit No. R-4, 4 and was received in evidence.) 5 JUDGE GOODWIN: And then, Mr. Quinn, you 6 are going to make copies of these and circulate 7 them to the Court and to Mr. Bobertz. 8 MR. QUINN: Okay, fine, I can do that 9 this afternoon. 10 JUDGE GOODWIN: Okay, that's fine. 11 Thank you. 12 Anything else, Mr. Quinn? 13 MR. QUINN: Just a moment. 14 No, sir. 15 JUDGE GOODWIN: Anything else from you, 16 Mr. Bobertz? 17 MR. BOBERTZ: No, Your Honor. 18 JUDGE GOODWIN: Anything else, Mr. 19 Quinn? 20 MR. QUINN: Your Honor, could I get you 21 to
-- I would like to introduce some things that 22 I believe demonstrates, certainly, misguided, if

(202) 234-4433 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERSANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLANDAVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234·44332-191 1 not ill-content towards our airline by the 2 Regional Counsel. 3 JUDGE GOODWIN: Well, I don't consider 4 any of that relevant. You can introduce it, but 5 the Court doesn't take into account motive. 6 As I said, it gets back to an issue of 7 prosecutorial discretion, which is a very broad 8 concept, and a prosecutor, in any situation, has 9 wide latitude in bringing certain actions or not 10 bringing certain actions. 11 And, the fact that they may bring an 12 action against the biggest airline in the world or 13 not, or vice versa, isn't relevant to my 14 deliberations. I have no authority over that. 15 That's an equity issue. I look at the 16 regulatia1S. I look at the facts presented, and 17 I make my decision based on the facts and the 18 regulations. 19 And, the same would be true whether-- 20 there's no evidence in this case that you did any 21

-- that APA did anythingmaliciously, and in many 22 cases that's not relevant.

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1 So, I would not find it particularly 2 helpful or relevant to the facts of this case. 3 MR. QUINN: Where would prosecutorial 4 misconduct come into play here? 5 JUDGE GOODWIN: That's not an issue 6 before me. 7 MR. QUINN: I see. Okay. 8 JUDGE GOODWIN: Now, as I indicated in 9 my originalprocedural order, I think the facts of 10 both of these cases are fairly straightforward. 11 However, I'll give an opportunity to 12 both of you, if you want to, to brief the case 13 after the transcript is prepared. 14 So, Mr. Bobertz, what's your position? 15 MR. BOBERTZ: Yes, I thought that was 16 standard course. 17 JUDGE GOODWIN: Okay. 18 MR. BOBERTZ: We were doing closing 19 arguments by written. 20 JUDGE GOODWIN: That's one of so, 21 what I, typically, do, Mr. Quinn, is, it takes 22 about two weeks, give or take, for the transcript

(202) 234-4433 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERSANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLANDAVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-44332-193 1 to be prepared and transmitted to my office. 2 At that point, it,

### s, typically, 3 transmittedto the FAA HeadquartersinWashington, 4 D.C., and then some time thereafterit will arrive 5 on Mr. Bobertz's desk. 6 What I'mgoing to invite the two of you 7 to do, Mr. Bobertz, when you get the transcript, 8 if you'll communicate with Mr. Quinn, if the two 9 of you could work out a briefing schedule. Now, 10 my normal schedule is, the FAA wouldbrief shortly 11 after the transcript, they get the transcript. 12 Two weeks thereafter, Mr. Quinnwould file a reply 13 brief, and then the FAA has an opportunity for 14 surrebuttal about a week. 15 I'm not married to that schedule. I 16 know, Mr. Quinn, you have a busy schedule. I know 17 Mr. Bobertz does. So, if the two of you can agree 18 on a schedule, send an email, tell me what the 19 schedule is, and I'll sign an order to that 20 effect. 21 If you need to slip it for some reason, 22 and you can agree on it again, send me the dates

(202) 234-4433 NEALR. GROSS COURTREPORTERSANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLANDAVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-44332-194 1 and I'll amend the order. 2 I'mnot surewhat your scheduleis, Mr. 3 Bobertz, but I would inviteyou to not do anything 4 before 2015. Most Government employees run into 5 the situation of, we have use or lose, and, you 6 know, we all have holidays. So, whatever your 7 schedule, don't make it start until mid to late 8 January. 9 MR. BOBERTZ: I would appreciate that 10 and agree. Thank you. 11 JUDGE GOODWIN: Okay. 12 MR. QUINN: I'm okay with that also. 13 JUDGE GOODWIN: Okay, great. Well, 14 thank you, gentlemen. We' 11 go off the record and 15 that concludes the case. 16 MR. BOBERTZ: Thank you, Your Honor. 17 MR. QUINN: Thank you. 18 (Whereupon, the above-entitledmatter 19 was concluded at 11:01 a.m.) 20 21 22

(202) 234-4433 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERSANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLANDAVE., NW. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433Volume2 195 A 66:2 92:1,3 96:21 administratively 122:2 23:21 28:15 31:14 $109.50166:16 105:4113:20130:15 Administrator4:9 65:17 161:5 $27,000166:20 137:17185:4187:4 11:1476:13 121:2 air15:5,13,20,21 16:1,2 $547,000166:6,15 above-entitled 1:15 125:2131:16155:3 16:5 38:9,10 40:14,15 A-1 3:9 20:11,1521:8,9 194:18 182:17 62:12,20 88:1295:16

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Neal R. Grossand Co., Inc. Washington DC Volume2 215

www.nealrgross.com216 C E R T I F I C A T E

This is to certify that the foregoing transcript

In the matter of: Aero Micronesia

Before: US DOT/OH

Date: 12-02-14

Place: Honolulu, Hi

was duly recorded and accurately transcribed under my direction; further, that said transcript is a true and accurate record of the proceedings.

(202}234-4433 Court Reporter

NEALR. GROSS COURTREPORTERSANDTRANSCRIBERS 1323RHODEISLANDAVE, N.W. WASHINGTON,D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com