### FEDERAL AVIATION ADMINISTRATION

**SMALL AIRPLANE DIRECTORATE**

**PART 23 REORGANIZATION**

**NOTICE OF PROPOSED RULEMAKING**

**May 3, 2016 8:02 a.m.** 

**Public Hearing Georgia International Convention Center**  **Atlanta, Georgia**

**REGENCY-BRENTANO, INC. Certified Court Reporting**  **Suite 140 13 Corporate Square**  **Atlanta, Georgia 30329 (404) 321-3333** Page 2 May 3, 2016

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### 1 Attendees: **2 Bill Schinstock Lowell Foster**  **3 Pat Mullen Jeff Pretz**  **4 Jim Brady Mark James**  **5 Mike Reyer Paul Pellicano**  **6**

**7 8**  **9 10** 

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### 1 (Tuesday, May 3, 2016 8:02 a.m.) **2 MR. PAT MULLEN: My name is Pat 3 Mullen. I am the acting manager of the**  **4 Small Airplane Directorate in Kansas City, 5 Missouri, and I welcome you to this public**  **6 hearing to discuss the part 23 7 reorganization notice of proposed**  **8 rulemaking. 9 I just wanted to take just one**  **10 moment before handing it off to our 11 moderators. I just wanted to welcome you to**  **12 Atlanta and thank you for your participation 13 in this meeting. We were -- this effort was**  **14 highly dependent upon the energy and the 15 input of the industry, especially during the**  **16 Aviation Rulemaking Committee phase. And 17 during the Notice of Proposed Rulemaking,**  **18 our success is equally dependent upon your 19 energy in providing us meaningful comments**  **20 to the NPRM, so we are very glad to see all 21 of you here at this meeting.**  **22 At this time I would like to 23 introduce you to one of our key moderators**  **24 in this meeting, Mr. Bill Schinstock. He is 25 the acting manager of the Small Airplane** Page 4 May 3, 2016

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### 1 Directorate, Standards Office. He is going **2 to have some -- he would like to provide his 3 greetings and then he will go over some of**  **4 the rules of engagement for this public 5 meeting. As you know, public meetings are**  **6 actually structured. There are some rules 7 that we do have to abide by, and Bill will**  **8 provide all of that input and direction to 9 all of us, so thank you and good morning and**  **10 we look forward to the next two days of 11 meetings.**  **12 MR. BILL SCHINSTOCK: Thank you,**

**13 Pat. 14 Good morning, ladies and gentlemen.**  **15 The formal meeting is called to order at 16 this time. Today is Tuesday, May 3rd, 2016.**  **17 I would like to welcome you to the public 18 meeting on the part 23 Notice of Proposed**  **19 Rulemaking. As Pat said, my name is Bill 20 Schinstock. I am a manager in the Small**  **21 Airplane Directorate for policy and 22 regulations and standards. I am pleased to**  **23 welcome you to this meeting. The purpose of 24 the meeting is to solicit comments and**  **25 additional information from the public on**Page 5 May 3, 2016

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### 1 the FAA part 23 Notice of Proposed **2 Rulemaking. 3 Joining me on the panel today for**  **4 today's public meeting are several members 5 of the staff from the Small Airplane**  **6 Directorate. Mr. Lowell Foster, who is 7 primarily in flight, flight test and**  **8 handling qualities. He is also the primary 9 engineer on that project. His name is on** 

**10 the rule. Mr. Lowell Foster. 11 Next to him is Pat Mullen who has**  **12 introduced himself. 13 And then Jeff Pretz, who is a power**  **14 plants and propulsion engineer in the small 15 airplane standards staff.**  **16 Jim Brady, who is a systems 17 engineer.**  **18 And next to him is Mark James,**

**19 structures. 20 And next to him is Mike Reyer,** 

**21 loads and structures. 22 And next to him is Paul Pellicano,**  **23 who is our icing specialist. 24 These panel members are here to**  **25 facilitate discussions and to provide**Page 6 May 3, 2016

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### 1 clarifying information so that we may **2 develop as complete and useful of record of 3 the proceedings as possible. Any comments,**  **4 questions or statements made by the panel 5 members during the course of this meeting**  **6 should not be taken as expressing a final 7 FAA position.**  **8 A little bit of the format for the 9 proceedings: The FAA will consider comments**  **10 made at this meeting before making a final 11 decision on issuance of the final rule. We**  **12 will not make the formal decisions here. 13 In order to develop an orderly and**  **14 logical record, we have prepared an agenda. 15 As illustrated in the agenda, we will**  **16 discuss the proposed rule subpart by 17 subpart. The FAA panel will briefly**  **18 summarize each subpart of the proposed 19 section by section.**  **20 After each summary, the public will 21 be given an opportunity to ask questions**  **22 about the proposal or to introduce relevant 23 information on a proposal subpart being**  **24 discussed. 25 We plan to discuss Subparts A** Page 7 May 3, 2016

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### 1 through D today. We plan to discuss **2 Subparts E through G tomorrow. At the end 3 of each day we will provide time for general**  **4 comments on the proposal as some of you may 5 not be with us both days. We will also**  **6 provide time at the end of each day for the 7 public to present material.**  **8 We request that anyone who wishes 9 to make a presentation to please inform the**  **10 staff at the registration table in the back 11 of the room and we will accommodate your**  **12 request as time permits. The proceedings 13 are being transcribed by a Court Reporter.**  **14 A verbatim transcript of this meeting will 15 be available after May 15th, 2016. Ordering**  **16 information is available at the registration 17 table outside the room. A copy of the**  **18 transcript for this meeting will be placed 19 in the public docket.**  **20 Persons wishing to ask a question 21 or provide a comment must be recognized by**  **22 the chair. The chair will recognize each 23 person from the floor, will establish the**  **24 appropriateness of all discussions and 25 questions and will terminate the discussions** Page 8 May 3, 2016

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### 1 that are not fruitful. Issues that do not **2 deal with the part 23 NPRM and associated AC 3 are not under consideration during this**  **4 meeting and the chair will rule such 5 discussions out of order.**  **6 If you wish to ask a question or 7 provide a comment, we ask that you please**  **8 raise your hand for the chair to recognize 9 you. You will then be provided a microphone**  **10 or you can step up to the mic here. For the 11 benefit of the Court Reporter, each time you**  **12 take a microphone, please identify yourself 13 and your affiliation for the record. We ask**  **14 that you limit your comments to issues 15 directly pertaining to the NPRM and the**  **16 proposed advisory circular associated with 17 this rulemaking.**  **18 Please be aware that if you provide 19 a comment or presentation, members of the**  **20 FAA panel may ask you follow-up questions 21 intended to clarify or focus on particular**  **22 elements or concepts expressed in your 23 comment or presentation. This will offer**  **24 you an opportunity to elaborate on relevant 25 issues. Our objective here is to make sure** Page 9 May 3, 2016

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### 1 that we have a complete understanding of **2 your concerns. 3 While the proceedings are being**  **4 transcribed by a Court Reporter, the FAA 5 strongly encourages each person to submit**  **6 their comments in writing to the docket. 7 Prior to beginning our formal**  **8 discussions on the proposal, I would like to 9 give you a little background on how we got**  **10 here. The intent of this rulemaking is to 11 move from prescriptive standards to**  **12 performance-based standards. To that end, 13 the proposal captures the safety intent of**  **14 the current regulations while reducing the 15 volume of the text in part 23. In fact, the**  **16 proposed text constitutes only 10 percent of 17 the current rules. The FAA received**  **18 recommendations and proposed rule language 19 from an Aviation Rulemaking Committee, or an**  **20 ARC. The FAA conducted a comprehensive 21 review of the ARC's proposed rule language**  **22 which took approximately six months. The 23 ARC's recommendations were one of many**  **24 factors used to develop the NPRM. 25 Now we are at the public comment** Page 10 May 3, 2016

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### 1 stage. After the comment period is closed, **2 the FAA will consider the comments received 3 in developing the final rule.**  **4 Again, we would appreciate it if 5 you can submit any comments you have in**  **6 writing to the docket. 7 The ground rules for this public**  **8 meeting are straightforward. All exchanges 9 should be made on the record. The FAA will**  **10 not entertain questions or comments 11 regarding the proposal during breaks. Some**  **12 logistics for the meeting, we will break for 13 lunch at approximately 12:00. We will also**  **14 take morning and afternoon breaks as 15 indicated in the agenda. For those of you**  **16 that don't know, restrooms are just out the 17 door and to the left. The emergency exits**  **18 are out the door and past the lobby outside. 19 If you are not registered yet, please do so**  **20 at the front at the first break. An 21 attendee list will be prepared and placed in** 

**22 the docket. 23 One other note that I would like to**  **24 make is that we are on a telecom and a 25 weblink with authorities from foreign CAAs** Page 11 May 3, 2016

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### 1 and so they are on the telephone and they **2 will be listening the comments. They will 3 not have the ability to talk to us but they**  **4 can hear what we are talking about. The 5 audio is being recorded for our benefit**  **6 later on in addressing the comments. At 7 this time, we were going to have a**  **8 presentation by the leader of the ARC, but I 9 don't see Greg here yet.**  **10 He is a little bit late traveling 11 so when he gets here we will allow him to**  **12 make his introductory comments. But at this 13 time I think that I will hand the podium**  **14 over to Lowell Foster and he will begin the 15 proceedings. Thank you.**  **16 MR. LOWELL FOSTER: So when Greg 17 gets in we will just take a break and let**  **18 him do his introduction. And we are 19 scheduled for a break at 9:30. Okay. So we**  **20 are ahead of schedule already. You got to 21 like that.**  **22 I am going to talk about Subpart A 23 and B and fundamentally, within the**  **24 constraints of the meeting, I am going to 25 share the language with you, what we -- what** Page 12 May 3, 2016

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### 1 the new rules address and then open the **2 floor for questions or comments. And I 3 really don't want to read everything to you,**  **4 so maybe I will just share the language on 5 the slide. Part -- the 23.1 added a few**  **6 definitions, but fundamentally it's the 7 same. Any questions? Comments? Nope.**  **8 Everybody done? 9 Okay. 23.5, we did make a lot of**  **10 changes. This is where we went from weight 11 and propulsion to risk and performance, so**  **12 you will see a lot of changes in 23.5. We 13 also -- we identified levels and those are**  **14 risk levels which are based on passenger 15 numbers. We have high and low performance**  **16 which are speed based and then we introduced 17 the concept of "simple".**  **18 Yes. Question. And I would ask 19 you to step up to the mic for Susan over** 

**20 here. 21 MR. RIC PERI: Hi, Lowell. Ric**  **22 Peri with Aircraft Electronics Association. 23 MR. LOWELL FOSTER: Good morning,**  **24 Ric.**

**25 MR. RIC PERI: Just for**Page 13 May 3, 2016

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### 1 clarification purposes, I have received a **2 number of questions specifically with Level 3 1 with the zero to one. Can you explain the**  **4 zero, please? 5 MR. LOWELL FOSTER: So I think, as**  **6 mentioned in the preamble, the idea was it 7 could be a single-seat airplane with a pilot**  **8 and one passenger, so it was targeting the 9 two place category. It does not necessarily**  **10 leave out the opportunity for no pilot. 11 Anything else?**  **12 And this is the second part of the 13 23.5. We will pause right here.**  **14 Good timing, Greg. 15 MR. GREG BOWLES: Yeah, sorry,**  **16 guys. You are taking comments piece by 17 piece, is that what you are doing?**  **18 MR. LOWELL FOSTER: Do you want to 19 comment?** 

**20 MR. GREG BOWLES: Yes. 21 MR. LOWELL FOSTER: And then we can**  **22 take a break and then if you would like to**

**23 do a welcome. 24 MR. GREG BOWLES: Okay. Great.**  **25 Thank you. So in this area, the comment**Page 14 May 3, 2016

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### 1 that we would have, I think that is most **2 important -- and by the way, Greg Bowles 3 with the General Aviation Manufacturers**  **4 Association. 5 23.5(d) categorizing a category of**  **6 aircraft called simple, I think that we 7 understand the intent of the FAA doing that**  **8 to try to make sure that we do have a way to 9 treat simple aircraft appropriately. The**  **10 concern that we have is by creating a 11 category for that defined like this, it**  **12 actually breaks out another category like we 13 used to have with commuter categories, so**  **14 the comments that we would make is to remove 15 the simple category and treat aircraft with**  **16 that characteristic appropriately throughout 17 the code and also throughout the standards.**  **18 MR. LOWELL FOSTER: Okay. And I 19 would ask you, along with that comment,**  **20 hopefully you can make that comment to the 21 docket.** 

**22 MR. GREG BOWLES: Yes. 23 MR. LOWELL FOSTER: Great. Thanks.**  **24 Tell you what, why don't we finish Subpart A 25 and we will take a break and invite you up.** Page 15 May 3, 2016

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### 1 Is that it for 23.5? One comment. **2 Okay. Steve? 3 MR. STEVEN ROSENFELD: Good morning**  **4 Lowell. Steve Rosenfeld, National Traffic 5 Control Association. I just want one thing**  **6 clarified as I go through this rule and I 7 see how aerobatics is treated. Am I correct**  **8 in saying that if you have a normal airplane 9 and the only additional maneuver it's**  **10 approved for is to do spins that can be 11 recovered and nothing else, no loops, rolls**  **12 or anything like that, just spins, that 13 still will end up categorizing that airplane**  **14 as aerobatic; is that correct? 15 MR. LOWELL FOSTER: That is**  **16 correct. And there is actually two places 17 in the preamble that we discussed that.**  **18 MR. STEVE ROSENFELD: Okay. Thank 19 you.**  **20 MR. LOWELL FOSTER: You bet. If 21 that is it for 23.5 we will move on to** 

**22 23.10. 23 23.10 was new. And when you move**  **24 to a performance-based rule, the rules are 25 very top level and so we felt the need to** Page 16 May 3, 2016

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### 1 make it a requirement that we agree upon the **2 means of the compliance up front and that is 3 what 23.10 is intended to do.**  **4 I will mention there is an AC 5 associated with this -- a proposed -- a**  **6 proposed AC associated with this. 7 MR. GREG BOWLES: Clarification**  **8 question for 23.10(b). Is this intended to 9 ask that people creating means of compliance**  **10 for broad use and acceptance by the FAA for 11 all future projects need to request**  **12 compliance or that methods of compliance 13 which may be put forth through an AC or**  **14 other acceptable means that the FAA has 15 pointed to need to get approval on a**  **16 project-by-project basis? 17 MR. LOWELL FOSTER: So I am going**  **18 to let that go as a comment that we will 19 look into, okay, and actually ask you, maybe**  **20 to expand on that and submit it to the 21 docket. It's a good question. I appreciate**  **22 that. We are still having some internal 23 discussions, so I would prefer not to** 

**24 elaborate. 25 Anything else? All right. That** Page 17 May 3, 2016

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### 1 takes us to Subpart B, and it might be a **2 good break point that, Greg, you were on the 3 agenda -- Greg was our ARC coach here for**  **4 industry and he had wanted to do a little 5 welcoming statement.** 

**6 MR. GREG BOWLES: I do not have 7 slides but I do have some other things. So**  **8 thank you for giving me a minute here to say 9 some things. And I'm sorry for showing up**  **10 and speaking so quickly, everybody. 11 So I am Greg Bowles. I am with the**  **12 General Aviation Manufacturers Association 13 and I was the cochair of the ARC along with**  **14 Pat Mullen and I am currently chairing the 15 ASTM activity that has been mentioned in**  **16 this area. 17 So what I would like to say on**  **18 behalf of a whole bunch of associations, so 19 AEA, AOPA, EAA, HAI, ICAS, ASAO, NATA and**  **20 NBA. So that basically represents the 21 aircraft maintainers, the modifiers and the**  **22 operators of pretty much all the aircraft 23 here in the US.**  **24 This group got together and 25 submitted some high level comments to the** Page 18 May 3, 2016

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### 1 docket, and I want to make sure everyone is **2 aware that that is on there now for review. 3 Some of the things that were**  **4 thought to be critical going forward, this 5 change is seen as something to revitalize**  **6 general aviation. Today we are losing 7 10,000 private pilots a year in the US. The**  **8 average age of the private pilots actually 9 is maybe a more concerning number. We just**  **10 looked at some data that shows the average 11 age obviously gets a year older every year**  **12 because we are not bringing lifeblood into 13 aviation today.**  **14 Typically when a pilot hits about 15 70 it's a pretty sharp drop off; they do not**  **16 continue past that curve. There are 17 exceptions, but the vast majority drop off.**  **18 Of that bulk, the median number of pilots is 19 about 65 to 68, so what is going to happen**  **20 over the next four to five years, there is a 21 tremendous number of pilots that will be**  **22 dropping off the register and dropping off 23 activity.**  **24 So based on estimates, we think 25 that we will probably see the numbers of** Page 19 May 3, 2016

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### 1 private pilots in the US drop to an all-time **2 low since the time that they were on the 3 rise back in the 1960s. So we will probably**  **4 settle around instead of what the high was 5 when there were 300,000 or 400,000 private**  **6 pilots in the US, we will probably settle 7 around 140,000 pilots in the next four**  **8 years. That is a pretty devastating number. 9 We are currently at 168,000 this year, so**  **10 the trends have been continuing in that 11 direction.**  **12 If nothing is done, aviation is 13 only attractive to those of us who have**  **14 something wrong with us. I guess that we 15 all have an aviation gene. We love it. But**  **16 the general population is not interested in 17 enduring the difficulties that are in their**  **18 way. A lot of those difficulties are 19 brought because of a whole number of**  **20 sources. They are brought because of cost. 21 They are brought because of difficulty in**  **22 construction. But a lot of them are brought 23 because of the outdated regulations.**  **24 So it's seen that these changes 25 that are being proposed can address one of** Page 20 May 3, 2016

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### 1 the major problems, being able to put **2 innovation into the existing fleet of 3 aircraft is really important. That is the**  **4 lifeline to keep things going to attract 5 young people into aviation with the products**  **6 that are out there. But even as important, 7 and maybe more so, is being able to design**  **8 new products that are more attractive for 9 folks to pull new young people into**  **10 aviation. 11 When we look at the alternatives**  **12 that young people have today, they can go do 13 a lot of things. They can fly aircraft**  **14 simulators on their iPads and computers at 15 home with a very low burden. So not only is**  **16 this change necessary, but we also think 17 that a change in the operations and**  **18 maintenance environment going forward will 19 be critical too. So I think that the**  **20 association had talked about flight 21 standards improvements as well. As these**  **22 new products come along, it will be 23 important to be able to utilize those as**  **24 safely and as efficiently as possible, so we 25 anticipate that that would be something that** Page 21 May 3, 2016

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### 1 we are all interested in looking towards. **2 The proposal, we will submit 3 detailed comments from the GAMA perspective**  **4 along with the association, so I wouldn't go 5 through those today in detail. I think a**  **6 couple of the highlighted areas that I would 7 raise for awareness when we look at the**  **8 global environment, one of the things that 9 is happening very quickly is a change in**  **10 propulsion. So we are starting to see 11 hybrid and electric propulsion being**  **12 theorized and being real in the widest end. 13 There is a lot of promise there, but there**  **14 is a lot of challenges in bringing that kind 15 of thing on board. The rules probably need**  **16 to be tailored a bit better to address 17 electric and hybrid propulsion in a more**  **18 straightforward manner, so we anticipate 19 putting detailed comments in that direction.**  **20 In the area of propulsion source, 21 we also anticipate looking at how other**  **22 authorities around the world have handled 23 the certification of propulsion sources so**  **24 we anticipate turning comments in to 25 potentially ask the FAA for certification** Page 22 May 3, 2016

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### 1 for propulsion sources as part of the **2 airframe and that determination will be 3 based on the complexity of the propulsion**  **4 source, not based on the complexity of the 5 airframe.**  **6 So for example, a very complex 7 airplane may use a very simple electric** 

**8 motor and that would be a case where that 9 simple electric motor should be certified**  **10 through the airframe certification, not as a 11 standalone component would be appropriate;**  **12 however, if a very simple airplane wanted to 13 use a very complex turbine engine, it would**  **14 probably make sense to certify that turbine 15 engine as a standalone.**  **16 One of the last really critical 17 things that needs to happen in this effort**  **18 is a timing issue. So we believe that the 19 FAA has worked really hard to get us here.**  **20 I know that a lot of you in the room have 21 worked in that effort as well. In Europe,**  **22 the European Aviation Safety Agency has 23 committed to having their rules on the books**  **24 by the end of this year. That is really 25 good news. That is really important. And** Page 23 May 3, 2016

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### 1 they have a pretty flexible rulemaking **2 system in Europe. The system here in the US 3 is more difficult. The FAA has to work**  **4 through the office of management and budget 5 and the DOT to get priority and get through**  **6 the system to even put out the NPRM and also 7 the final rule.**  **8 With that said, this issue is so 9 critical that we don't believe it can wait**  **10 for a future administration. So the worry 11 would be that if the FAA does not reach the**  **12 end of the year 2016 with their rule, it 13 would get pushed out some amount of time and**  **14 all of that amount of time would be putting 15 the US industry at a bit of a disadvantage.**  **16 So it's very important that the FAA does 17 everything possible to prioritize and that**  **18 the other branches of the executive 19 government do the same and put this rule**  **20 through. I hope that we will find that it's 21 noncontroversial. So far everybody that we**  **22 have talked to from the GAMA perspective has 23 found that it's a very positive rule,**  **24 certainly needs some technical tweaks and 25 some harmonization but we really want to** Page 24 May 3, 2016

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### 1 prioritize that rule. **2 So the last thing I will say is the 3 prioritization is an absolute key here --**  **4 I'm sorry, harmonization is an absolute key 5 here. We need to make sure that this rule**  **6 is the set of regulations that is used 7 around the world for the certifications of**  **8 these kind of vehicles so that manufacturers 9 can plan on designing a vehicle that works**  **10 optimally and then that vehicle can be sold 11 and exported or imported as it may be**  **12 because this industry is just too small to 13 have design differences in other markets.**  **14 And as I get off the stage, I will 15 say that I want to thank the folks at the**  **16 FAA small aircraft directorate and the folks 17 at the FAA certification and all the**  **18 supporting branches. I know that there are 19 a lot of folks from the econ office and a** 

**20 lot of other areas that have done a lot of 21 work to get us here. I think that the work**  **22 is probably not over, but we do appreciate 23 everything that has been done to get us** 

**24 here. 25 The FAA has a lot of challenges and** Page 25 May 3, 2016

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### 1 technical -- challenges and rules and **2 policies that get in its way when it needs 3 to do things and these folks have been**  **4 really dogged in working to figure out how 5 to work around those issues or work with**  **6 those issues -- to work with those issues to 7 come towards the best resolution for all of**  **8 that, so I thank you for that and thank you 9 for letting me say some things.**  **10 MR. BILL SCHINSTOCK: Thanks, Greg. 11 Thank you, Greg, I appreciate the comments.**  **12 The one request that I would have for you, 13 if you could please coordinate with our**  **14 Court Reporter for the list of companies at 15 the beginning of your presentation, I would**  **16 imagine that that was hard to capture. 17 We will continue with Lowell, but I**  **18 would like to open the floor now for anybody**

**19 that has a comment about what we have 20 covered so far, questions about what we have**  **21 covered so far and then we will jump into 22 Subpart B if there are no questions.**  **23 Ric? 24 MR. RIC PERI: Just a quick comment**  **25 on the simple aircraft. In light sport**Page 26 May 3, 2016

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### 1 airplanes, the F-37 ASTM standards for that **2 and the rules that have followed, one of the 3 challenges that the light sport airplane**  **4 community has struggled with is the VFR-only 5 limitation on that. It seems like we are**  **6 perpetuating that with that definition of 7 simple. Understand the stall speeds and all**  **8 of that stuff that goes with it, but adding 9 the VFR seems like we are going to repeat**  **10 history and create something that is going 11 to become a challenge and the entire**  **12 industry is going to be petitioning for 13 exemptions and extensions for that, so I**  **14 would ask that you reconsider that. 15 MR. BILL SCHINSTOCK: Okay. Thank**  **16 you. 17 All right. Lowell?**  **18 MR. LOWELL FOSTER: All right. We 19 are back to Subpart B.**  **20 In Subpart B, you probably saw the 21 most changes because we went from -- it's**  **22 very heavily based on weight and propulsion 23 and so going to performance-based standards**  **24 where we move to the risk/performance-based 25 was a challenge so you may see probably a** Page 27 May 3, 2016

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### 1 substantial number of changes here. I am **2 going to again continue where I let you read 3 this. What I want to share is what each of**  **4 these new or proposed rules address. So for 5 100, this is the weight and center of**  **6 gravity topic. And current Rule 23.21, 7 23.23, 23.29 and 31 have been basically**  **8 covered by this rule captured in the new 100 9 rule. Okay. No questions, comments?**  **10 So proposed Section 105 just 11 covered the performance section in the**  **12 current Rule 23.45. And as we stated in the 13 preamble, the intent was to maintain the**  **14 level of safety as much as possible. And in 15 this rule I think that we are at parity.**  **16 Yes, Greg, comments? 17 MR. GREG BOWLES: So it appears**  **18 that the temperature charts that were 19 created were more in line with aircraft that**  **20 suffered performance losses when temperature 21 increases. We think that electric aircraft**  **22 may suffer performance hits when temperature 23 decreases versus increase or there is**  **24 potential for that depending on the design. 25 So today going from standard request 30** Page 28 May 3, 2016

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### 1 would maybe not cover that. Is that an area **2 of discussion within the FAA right now? 3 MR. LOWELL FOSTER: I think that**  **4 that is a very good comment and I appreciate 5 you sharing that and would welcome that on**  **6 the docket. The history of that is true in 7 terms of based on engine and the attitude.**  **8 Any other comments, questions? 9 Okay. Moving on, 110 is stall**  **10 speed. It captures 23.49 in the current 11 rule, and if there are no comments or**  **12 questions I will move on. 13 MR. GREG BOWLES: So in the stall**  **14 speed questions which we ask for power set 15 to idle or zero thrust, would the FAA**  **16 envision power when you say set to idle or 17 zero thrust, would that mean that if power**  **18 was used for lifting or power was used for 19 some kind of augmentation so if there were**  **20 some kind of augmentation or lift fans on an 21 aircraft, would zero thrust mean forward**  **22 direction thrust or would that include all 23 power lift in those other devices?** 

**24 MR. LOWELL FOSTER: So those 25 discussions -- that goes beyond discussions** Page 29 May 3, 2016

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### 1 and we would have to just take that as a **2 comment and under advisement. The intent 3 here was to capture the current rule as we**  **4 talked about in the preamble. All right, 5 moving on to 23.115.**  **6 23.115's takeoff performance, this 7 incorporates current 23.51, 53, 55, 57 and**  **8 61. And I believe that there are two pages 9 to this. No, actually, I fit it all on one.**  **10 Any comments or questions? 11 All right. Moving on to 120. 120**  **12 is climb performance. It captures current 13 23.63, 23.65, 67 and 77.**  **14 MR. GREG BOWLES: It appears from 15 the way that the climb angles are lined out**  **16 that the FAA is asking for steeper climbs 17 out of smaller and simpler aircraft with**  **18 fewer people on board. I guess actually 19 it's just based on fewer people. So**  **20 aircraft with fewer people and low speed are 21 steeper climbs than high speed with more**  **22 people, is there any background to the 23 philosophy there?**  **24 MR. LOWELL FOSTER: So the intent 25 here was to maintain the current rule as** Page 30 May 3, 2016

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### 1 best we could. And as I said at the start, **2 this particular rule or this set of climb 3 requirements are heavily weighed to**  **4 propulsion and weight so we tried to match 5 as best we could with what we have today**  **6 using performance and the airworthiness 7 levels. It isn't a perfect match so that**  **8 may be what you see. And if there is 9 something that is a concern or very far off,**  **10 we would really welcome that comment and 11 have that identified.**  **12 But the intent was, as much as we 13 could, to maintain parity today with the new**  **14 system. So this is the second part of it. 15 Greg, for clarity, were you**  **16 targeting this specific -- any specific 17 paragraph with your comment?** 

**18 MR. GREG BOWLES: Yes. I was 19 curious about the climb requirements for all**  **20 Level 4 as compared to Level 1, 2 and 3. 21 MR. LOWELL FOSTER: Okay. Thank**  **22 you. 23 Any other questions or comments?**  **24 Okay. Climb information captures 25 current 23.66, 69 and 71. And these were** Page 31 May 3, 2016

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### 1 the paragraphs where we were only **2 determining, there was not a minimum climb 3 gradient required as in 120. And again the**  **4 intent was parity as much as possible. 5 MR. PAT MULLEN: I'm sorry to**  **6 interrupt. Just real quick, so we are 7 having a little bit of trouble with the**  **8 sound so if I could ask you to speak up a 9 little bit more and also on that microphone**  **10 because we are having a -- so there are 11 folks from the foreign CAAs listening and**  **12 they are having trouble hearing. 13 MR. LOWELL FOSTER: Any other**  **14 questions on 125 climb information?**

**15 Comments? 16 Okay. So 130 landing, again,**  **17 captures existing 23.73 and 23.75. 18 Comments? Questions? Greg?**  **19 MR. GREG BOWLES: Sorry, I have a 20 question about 3 knots for water operations.**  **21 Is there a genesis for where that 3 knots 22 came from and would that be 3 knots compared**  **23 to ground movement, water movement, air 24 movement, rotation of the earth? What would**  **25 that be compared to?**Page 32 May 3, 2016

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### 1 MR. LOWELL FOSTER: So I don't **2 remember discussions on three, if that comes 3 from existing or not, but it's a valid**  **4 comment. We appreciate it and I would ask 5 to you submit it so we can review it.**  **6 If I understand your comment, 7 you're actually wondering why 3 knots versus**  **8 relative ground or it could be 3 knots maybe 9 GPS; the two could be different; is that --**  **10 am I understanding your comment? 11 MR. GREG BOWLES: Yes. If you are**  **12 calling relative ground current so through 13 the tracking, through the water at 3 knots.**  **14 MR. LOWELL FOSTER: Relative to the**

**15 comment? 16 MR. GREG BOWLES: Right. Or are**  **17 you saying -- so there are a number of 18 factors that come into play. Wind drift, it**  **19 could blow you sideways a bit or you could 20 have -- you could be landing upstream or**  **21 downstream or in a tide, so those questions, 22 yeah.**  **23 MR. LOWELL FOSTER: Thank you. Any 24 other questions, comments?**  **25 Okay. Move on to flight**Page 33 May 3, 2016

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### 1 characteristics, proposed 23.200. This **2 actually captures a lot of current sections. 3 Section 141, 143, 145, 147, 149, 151, 153,**  **4 155, and 23.157. Again, a substantial 5 number of current rules encapsulated,**  **6 however, a lot of those rules really were 7 how-to's and we feel that they are better --**  **8 you are better located in a means of 9 compliance document.**  **10 There is -- this is one of the 11 areas where we do have an increase in**  **12 requirements, which is (c) where we require 13 stall before we hit VMC for the Level 1 and**  **14 2 multiengine. That is a change from today.**

**15 MR. GREG BOWLES: So I have a 16 clarification question and then also a**  **17 question about (c). So a clarification 18 about (a)(3). Would you see section (a)(3)**  **19 as citing a specific system failure criteria 20 so that the more general system criteria for**  **21 23.1315 does not apply? 22 MR. LOWELL FOSTER: So the intent**  **23 of this when we drafted it was to maintain 24 parity with the flight rules. I don't**  **25 recall discussions on systems aspects, so I**Page 34 May 3, 2016

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### 1 would say that that is a good comment and **2 ask you maybe to share that with us in the 3 docket if there are concerns.**  **4 MR. GREG BOWLES: Yes. Thank you. 5 And then my second question**  **6 23.200(c), the requirement to have minimum 7 control speed below a stall speed or at**  **8 stall speed is a prescriptive solution 9 towards making sure aircraft don't lose**  **10 control. You have a rule coming up shortly 11 that discusses the prevention of unintended**  **12 loss of control in the normal configuration. 13 I think our comment will be to the FAA in**  **14 written form and now verbally that we think 15 that the same should be true -- this should**  **16 be a more broad requirement so that aircraft 17 don't suffer unintended loss of control,**  **18 unintended inadvertent loss of control with 19 a critical engine failure, but forcing**  **20 minimum control speed to be at stall speed 21 is but one solution. We can use envelope**  **22 protection and high awareness through angle 23 of attack, we can bump the stall speed**  **24 artificially; there is a lot of other 25 solutions so I just wanted to mention that.** Page 35 May 3, 2016

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### 1 MR. LOWELL FOSTER: So I appreciate **2 that. As we stated in the preamble, this 3 was one of the ARC recommendations that we**  **4 adopted and those comments will be 5 appreciated. Thank you.**  **6 Okay. I thought that I might have 7 a second page of this. Any more questions**  **8 on the controllability? 9 Okay. 205 trim, and it captures**  **10 only current 23.161 trim, same title. And, 11 again, the intent was parity. Comments?**  **12 Questions? 13 All right. Moving on. Stability,**  **14 proposed 23.210. We captured sections 171, 15 173, 175, 177, 179, and 181 under stability.**  **16 And, again, the intent here was to maintain 17 the current level of safety today.**  **18 No comments or questions, we will**

**19 move on. 20 MR. PAT MULLEN: I do just for the**  **21 public benefit. This is Pat Mullen. 22 MR. LOWELL FOSTER: Hang on.**  **23 MR. PAT MULLEN: So we specifically 24 identified airplanes not certified for**  **25 aerobatics and did we describe in the**Page 36 May 3, 2016

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### 1 preamble why we excluded those based on **2 recent airplane certifications we have gone 3 through?**  **4 MR. LOWELL FOSTER: We did. There 5 was a discussion in the preamble on**  **6 splitting normal and acrobatic; however, the 7 way this is proposed, it basically maintains**  **8 what we do today in the stability 9 requirements for acrobatic. They are**  **10 essentially exempted because that is not a 11 desirable characteristic.**  **12 All right. 210, any comments or 13 questions? All right.**  **14 So let's go to proposed 215, stall 15 characteristics, stall warnings, and spins.**  **16 This rule captures the low speed 17 characteristics standards of 201, 203, 207**  **18 and 221. And this is an area where we hope 19 we did raise the level of safety. We hope**  **20 to see significant safety gains and that is 21 in (b) where the smaller airplanes cannot**  **22 have a tendency to inadvertently depart. 23 MR. GREG BOWLES: So 23.215(b)**  **24 applies to Level 1, 2 and 3 single-engine 25 airplanes so it does not apply to** Page 37 May 3, 2016

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### 1 multiengine. So per my previous comment, **2 potentially, we might have to talk about 3 during loss of thrust or something if that**  **4 is how we are going to deal with the VMC 5 issue. But more to this question, it does**  **6 not include Level 4. 7 MR. LOWELL FOSTER: Okay, for**  **8 clarification you did not mean Level 1 and 2 9 multiengine, right? It's all Level 1 and 2.**  **10 MR. GREG BOWLES: Sorry, yeah, 11 sorry, Level 3.**  **12 MR. LOWELL FOSTER: I just wanted**

**13 to be clear. 14 MR. GREG BOWLES: And it does not**  **15 include any Level 4. 16 MR. LOWELL FOSTER: Right.**  **17 MR. GREG BOWLES: So my question 18 actually comes to Level 3 single-engines.**  **19 Does the data show -- and so first question 20 would be did you base that decision not to**  **21 include Level 4 on the incidence of loss of 22 control in Level 4 airplanes?**  **23 MR. LOWELL FOSTER: We did. 24 MR. GREG BOWLES: And if you did,**  **25 was there a large difference between Level 4**Page 38 May 3, 2016

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### 1 and Level 3 single engine?

**2 MR. LOWELL FOSTER: There was a 3 small difference. The Level 4 airplanes,**  **4 which would be commuter category basically, 5 we don't have the data to support requiring**  **6 this. Level 3, I would have to go back and 7 look. But good comment, thank you.**  **8 Any other questions, comments? 9 Okay.**  **10 Proposed 220, ground and water 11 characteristics. These captured current**  **12 23.231, 233, 235, 237, 239. And again here 13 the intent was parity with the current** 

**14 rules. 15 MR. GREG BOWLES: 23.220(a) seems**  **16 to encompass the old language that had to do 17 with crosswind landings on regular surfaces** 

**18 on land surfaces. 19 MR. LOWELL FOSTER: Right.** 

**20 MR. GREG BOWLES: And B seems to 21 encompass all water-based operation in more**  **22 detail than what is now captured for 23 land-based airplanes. So it would seem**  **24 appropriate that if we are not going to 25 specify how to include the information in** Page 39 May 3, 2016

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### 1 more context for land planes, which is the **2 majority of aircraft, that it would be 3 necessary to do that for seaplane operation**  **4 or amphibious. It could meet the same level 5 of criteria and be captured in standard.**  **6 MR. LOWELL FOSTER: Okay. We 7 appreciate that comment. Thank you.**  **8 Any other comments? 9 Okay. 23.225 vibration, buffeting,**  **10 and high speed characteristics. This 11 incorporates or it captures current 251, 253**  **12 and 255. And, again, with this, the intent 13 was the parity with current rules.**  **14 Comments? Questions? Okay.**

**15 Great. 16 The next one is icing, so I am**  **17 actually going to hand this off to our icing 18 expert, Paul Pellicano.**  **19 MR. PAUL PELLICANO: Can you guys 20 hear me? All right. I will take that as a**  **21 yes. 22 What we did is we adopted the part**  **23 23 reorganization ARC and the part 23 icing 24 ARC aviation technical committees to take**  **25 the performance of flight characteristics**Page 40 May 3, 2016

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### 1 requirements in icing that are currently in **2 23.1419 and we put them in Subpart B. So 3 this is the new 23.230. It only is**  **4 applicable to airplanes that seek 5 certification for flight in icing. And what**  **6 we do is we took the current requirement 7 that we have for part 23 airplanes and that**  **8 is to show in these Subpart B requirements 9 in Part 25, appendix C conditions. We have**  **10 currently requires that today in 1419 and we 11 carry that over to 230.**  **12 This is one area where we did 13 increase safety because we are allowing**  **14 applicants now to either show that they can 15 safely fly in additional icing requirements**  **16 in Appendix C. Appendix C is really 17 wintertime clouds with small drops.**  **18 The intent of this rule is to 19 account for freezing drizzle or freezing**  **20 rain which no airplane today is currently 21 certified for but unfortunately which**  **22 airplanes encounter. So we are giving 23 applicants the option to certify in those**  **24 conditions or to not certify. And if they 25 choose not to certify, they have to show** Page 41 May 3, 2016

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### 1 that they can detect and safely exit. And **2 the intent is to show that would be the 3 current move to compliance we have in**  **4 advisory circular 23.1419. 5 The other thing that we borrowed**  **6 from the current advisory circular 23.1419 7 is the fact that we do not look at high**  **8 speed -- it's not necessary to do that -- or 9 to look at spins. And also the most**  **10 critical thing that we are taking from the 11 advisory circular is that the stall warning**  **12 and ice conditions be the same in icing as 13 in non-icing. For example, we do not allow**  **14 buffet today if you have a stall warning 15 system. Our accidents tell us that is the**  **16 most critical thing to do for flight and 17 icing.**  **18 Going back to SLD, one of the 19 things that we are doing, too, is besides**  **20 detecting, we are allowing the option to 21 avoid. That technology currently does not**  **22 exist but there is work in various areas 23 both ground based and airborne based to do**  **24 that, so this rule would allow the option. 25 And if an airplane does not seek to fly in** Page 42 May 3, 2016

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### 1 additional icing conditions outside of **2 Appendix C, we require an addendum 3 documentation and that is currently in our**  **4 guide material which most applicants have 5 been following.**  **6 Questions? Comments? 7 MR. GREG BOWLES: I applaud the**  **8 section. It's a good way to summarize a 9 pretty complex subject into one part so that**  **10 it is really concise and nice. 11 I have a question about (a)(2). So**  **12 you discussed a second ago that the stall 13 warning for flight in icing conditions and**  **14 non-icing needs to be the same. You 15 expressed that it needs to be the same in**  **16 the way that the pilot is notified. But 17 would you clarify that we don't intend for**  **18 that to be the same actual stall speed? 19 MR. PAUL PELLICANO: Oh, we expect**  **20 the stall speed to go up in icing. 21 Absolutely. As a matter of fact, if you**  **22 look at airplanes today, current airplanes 23 certified today, they have a different --**  **24 stall warning because different stall speed 25 schedules go up, absolutely.** Page 43 May 3, 2016

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### 1 Any more questions or comments? **2 Okay. Thank you very much.**

**3 MR. LOWELL FOSTER: So we were 4 thinking that we would take a break, but**  **5 before that I would like to go back to 23.5 6 real quick.**  **7 So I would like to just reinforce 8 that this is really the heart of the change**  **9 of 23, the levels, and what we are doing 10 with the safety continuum in proposing Level**  **11 1 through 4 and just make sure that that 12 magnitude is clear with everyone. Give you**  **13 a chance, again, to comment or question. 14 MR. BILL BRODEGARD: Bill**  **15 Brodegard, Aspen Avionics. 16 Related to this is the -- I am**  **17 interested in the philosophy on the VFR 18 limitation. In other words, what was the --**  **19 what is the -- what is the driver that 20 creates that VFR limitation?**  **21 MR. LOWELL FOSTER: For the simple?**

**22 MR. BILL BRODEGARD: Yes. 23 MR. LOWELL FOSTER: It's simply**  **24 VLA. CS-VLA and our charter to harmonize 25 with that. The bottom end of 23 was** Page 44 May 3, 2016

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### 1 expanded to include VLA as we discussed in **2 the preamble but that may not have been 3 clear.**  **4 MR. RIC PERI: Ric Peri, AEA. I 5 appreciate the harmonization concept, but I**  **6 believe it's to harmonize wherever 7 practical. Our airspace rules, our IFR**  **8 rules are slightly different than Europe and 9 we want to make sure that we incorporate**  **10 those aircraft but I would suggest that we 11 do not want to adopt the restrictions that**  **12 Europe has placed on those aircraft unless 13 there is a purpose for it.**  **14 In other words, we absolutely want 15 the rules to be able to adopt it, but let's**  **16 make the rules applicable to our airspace in 17 the US to the maximum extent possible as** 

**18 well. 19 MR. LOWELL FOSTER: Thank you. I**  **20 appreciate that, Ric. 21 MR. GREG BOWLES: I guess while we**  **22 are on the subject I will make a quick 23 comment about this topic. From my**  **24 perspective if you look at the European 25 proposal it does not actually -- it no** Page 45 May 3, 2016

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### 1 longer defines a VLA aircraft and they no **2 longer differentiate an aircraft such as a 3 simple aircraft in this manner. The**  **4 European approach has now been to use the 5 class as you identified Level 1 through 4,**  **6 high speed, low speed and then technical 7 considerations within the standards beyond**  **8 that. VFR/IFR is used in certain cases but 9 not as a lump of a simple aircraft. It's**  **10 used for different approaches to lightning 11 and herth. So from our perspective we would**  **12 actually prefer the European approach over 13 defining the simple aircraft as defined** 

**14 here. 15 MR. LOWELL FOSTER: And so if I**  **16 could clarify, basically, instead of using 17 VFR/IFR as a category differentiator, you**  **18 are making it a technical differentiator 19 along with other technical differences?** 

**20 MR. GREG BOWLES: Yes. 21 MR. LOWELL FOSTER: Okay. Any --**  **22 MR. GREG BOWLES: Lowell, before 23 you end, I wanted to ask -- I know that I**  **24 was late and I apologize -- did you cover 25 Part 21 or do you intend to cover Part 21** Page 46 May 3, 2016

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### 1 comments today? **2 MR. LOWELL FOSTER: We don't. We 3 intend to only cover part 23, however, we**  **4 have representatives from Part 21 if you 5 have a question or comment.**  **6 MR. GREG BOWLES: Will there be a 7 period of time to do that on the agenda?** 

**8 MR. LOWELL FOSTER: We are ahead of 9 schedule.**  **10 MR. GREG BOWLES: Right now?**

**11 MR. LOWELL FOSTER: Yes. Go for 12 it.** 

**13 MR. GREG BOWLES: So I wanted to 14 comment on 21.9, the FAA has added a**  **15 provision that would allow other methods of 16 manufacture as acceptable to the**  **17 administrator so that would be something new 18 alongside of TSO, PMA and production --**  **19 production certificate and commercial parts. 20 So this new category we would highly**  **21 endorse. I think the FAA has shown a need 22 for flexibility with safety enhancing**  **23 equipment specifically, so the recent angle 24 of attack policy is going down a path of**  **25 standard part production which is a good**Page 47 May 3, 2016

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### 1 path for that part, but there are other **2 classes and parts that could be quite safety 3 enhancing that don't meet standards today**  **4 such as carbon monoxide detectors. So GAMA 5 would very much be in the favor of allowing**  **6 as acceptable to the administrative path for 7 production or use intended in aircraft and**  **8 the development of guidance and policy to**

**9 control that use. 10 MR. LOWELL FOSTER: Thanks. I**  **11 appreciate that comment, Greg. And I would 12 ask that you could include that in a written**  **13 form to the docket. Thank you. 14 So it's a little after 9:00. Let's**  **15 go ahead and take our first break with the 16 intent to be back at 9:20, 15 minutes, and**  **17 we will start with Subpart C. 18 (Recess.)**  **19 MR. PAT MULLEN: All right. Thank 20 you for coming back. I hope you all had an**  **21 enjoyable break. I had a few questions 22 during the break and for -- Susan, for your**  **23 benefit, this is Pat Mullen. There has been 24 some questions on the Court Reporter's**  **25 transcript and its availability and when it**Page 48 May 3, 2016

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### 1 would be available and if it's free of **2 charge and I think that if you -- if I could 3 bring Bill Schinstock up to the microphone**  **4 to explain. I think that we said that it 5 was going to be placed on the docket, but I**  **6 think that we also said that it would be 7 available for purchase and I think that we**  **8 need to clarify that. 9 MR. BILL SCHINSTOCK: Yes, what I**  **10 said was that it would be put on the docket 11 and there will be instructions for getting a**  **12 copy of it and it should be available May 13 15th. There may be a little bit of a delay.**  **14 Once we get it we have to submit it to the 15 government office that puts things on the**  **16 docket and sometimes there is a short delay 17 while this gets on, but it should be shortly**  **18 after May 15th. I honestly don't know if 19 there is a charge for the transcript but we**  **20 can find that out. I will let you know at 21 the next break. Thank you.**  **22 MR. LOWELL FOSTER: Any other 23 questions or comments?**  **24 Well, then, I think we will get 25 started with Subpart C with Mike Reyer.** Page 49 May 3, 2016

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### 1 MR. MICHAEL REYER: Good morning. **2 My name is Mike Reyer. I work in the Small 3 Airplane Directorate with everyone else on**  **4 the panel, but I actually work in the small 5 and continued operational safety branch.**  **6 And for this project, though, I am working 7 in the loads portions and structural**  **8 durability. 9 Okay. 23.300 is called the**  **10 structural design envelope. And this rule 11 captures the intent of several of the rules,**  **12 321, subparagraphs (b) and (c); 333(a); 337, 13 subparagraphs (a) and (b); and 343,**  **14 subparagraphs (a) and (b). 15 But what this rule requires is the**  **16 applicant must determine the structural 17 design envelope, which describes the range**  **18 and limits of airplane design and 19 operational parameters for which the**  **20 applicant will show compliance with 21 requirements of this subpart. The applicant**  **22 must account for all airplane design and 23 operation parameters that affect structural**  **24 loads, strength, durability, 25 aeroelasticity -- and aeroelasticity,** Page 50 May 3, 2016

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### 1 including: Structural design airspeeds and **2 if the airplane is limited by Mach number 3 you have to consider Mach numbers, design**  **4 maneuvering speed, VA, which may not be less 5 than the airspeed at which the airplane will**  **6 stall at the max design load factor -- 7 maneuvering load factor, design cruising**  **8 speed, which may be no less than the maximum 9 speed expected in normal ops, and the design**  **10 dive airspeed which is the airspeed that 11 will not be exceeded by inadvertent airspeed**  **12 increases when operating at VC. 13 And then you need to consider any**  **14 other design airspeed limitations required 15 for the operation of high lift devices,**  **16 landing gears, any other equipment or 17 devices.**  **18 For Level 4 airplanes you have to 19 develop a rough air penetration speed. I**  **20 think that that is all I have on that. 21 No, 23.300 goes on. Subparagraph**  **22 (b), you have to determine the design 23 maneuvering load factors not less than**  **24 those, which service history has shown, may 25 occur within the structural design envelope.** Page 51 May 3, 2016

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### 1 In the preamble we discuss, you **2 know, the load factors you choose. We 3 expect them to be what they are today, but,**  **4 you know, the load factors you chose has to 5 maintain the current level of safety we see**  **6 with the current regulations. 7 Subparagraph (c), inertial**  **8 properties including weight, center of 9 gravity and mass moments of inertia,**  **10 accounting for all weights from the airplane 11 empty weight to the maximum weight; and the**  **12 weight and distribution of occupants, 13 payload and fuel.**  **14 You have to document the range of 15 motion for all control surfaces, high lift**  **16 devices and other movable surfaces, 17 including tolerances and the maximum**  **18 altitude. 19 Any questions? No. Okay.**  **20 Moving on to the next. 305, 21 interaction of systems and structures. For**  **22 airplanes equipped with systems that affect 23 structural performance, either directly or**  **24 as a result of failure or malfunction, the 25 applicant must account for the influence and** Page 52 May 3, 2016

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### 1 failure conditions of these systems when **2 showing compliance with the requirements of 3 this subpart.**  **4 This is a new -- not really a new 5 requirement. We have issued special**  **6 conditions for these types of systems like 7 load alleviation systems, for example. We**  **8 have done one in part 23. And in part 25 9 they are commonplace. And like we say in**  **10 the preamble, we wanted to include this as a 11 rule so that people integrating -- who want**  **12 to integrate systems like load alleviation, 13 they have something to comply to.**  **14 Greg? 15 MR. GREG BOWLES: Thank you. Just**  **16 a clarification question. 17 Mike, a clarification issue on**  **18 23.305. It would appear that you are 19 discussing systems that might affect the**  **20 primary structure. You were thinking of 21 primary structural members, you were not**  **22 thinking of things that could affect**

**23 brackets and other smaller structures. 24 MR. MICHAEL REYER: It would apply**  **25 to a system like a flap load alleviation**Page 53 May 3, 2016

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### 1 device. But beyond that, you know, I would **2 have to consider that. If you could, you 3 know, make that a comment.**  **4 MR. GREG BOWLES: Yeah, I guess the 5 question would be about the envelope of**  **6 applicability. I think that I would 7 understand your intent here as being large**  **8 aerodynamic influences on structure as a 9 result of systems, but it would not**  **10 necessarily include, for example, failure of 11 a rotor, things like that, failure of an**  **12 engine rotor coming through the structure. 13 That would be a different rule?**  **14 MR. MICHAEL REYER: That is a 15 different rule. Yeah, thanks for the**  **16 comment. Any others? 17 MR. DAVID ARMSTRONG: David**  **18 Armstrong from Garmin. 19 The question I have is this seems**  **20 very similar to the way that Part 25 deals 21 with 629 -- or 529 rule. The -- do you**  **22 include or exclude failure conditions of the 23 systems that are shown to be extremely**  **24 probable? The rule does not say that. 25 MR. MICHAEL REYER: If you read the** Page 54 May 3, 2016

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### 1 special conditions that have been published **2 for like load alleviation systems, it has 3 language in there that discusses that.**  **4 MR. DAVID ARMSTRONG: Okay. Thank 5 you.**  **6 MR. MICHAEL REYER: Any more? 7 Okay. I am going to the next.**  **8 Now we go on to the structural 9 loads portion. Just to kind of -- the**  **10 introductory regulations of this section, 11 23.310 covers -- let's see here -- 301, 302**  **12 and 321. 13 The applicant must determine**  **14 structural design loads resulting from any 15 externally or internally applied pressure,**  **16 force or moment which may occur in flight, 17 ground and water operations, ground and**  **18 water handling, and while the airplane is 19 parked or moored.**  **20 Subparagraph (b), determine the 21 loads required by Paragraph (a) of this**  **22 section at all critical combinations of 23 parameters, on or within the boundaries of**  **24 the structural design envelope. 25 So proposed paragraph (c), the** Page 55 May 3, 2016

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### 1 magnitude and distribution of these loads **2 must be based on physical principles and may 3 be no less than service history shows will**  **4 occur within the structural design envelope. 5 Any questions?**  **6 315, flight loads, flight load 7 conditions, proposed flight load conditions.**  **8 It covers a lot of stuff. 333, subparagraph 9 (c); 347; 47; 49; 51; 67; 423; 425; 27; 41**  **10 and 43. 11 And this paragraph says: The**  **12 applicant must determine the structural 13 design loads resulting from the following**  **14 flight conditions: Vertical and horizontal 15 atmospheric gusts where the magnitude and**  **16 gradient of these gusts are based on 17 measured gust statistics, symmetric and**  **18 asymmetric maneuvers, for canted lifting 19 surface, vertical and horizontal loads**  **20 acting simultaneously resulting from gust 21 and maneuver conditions, and for multiengine**  **22 airplanes, failure of the powerplant unit 23 which results in the most severe structural** 

**24 loads. 25 Any questions? Thank you.** Page 56 May 3, 2016

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### 1 MR. GREG BOWLES: My understanding **2 of the current rule for powerplant failures, 3 structural loads, in multiengine airplanes**  **4 today we don't necessarily account for a 5 sudden stop of the propeller. Is that true**  **6 under 23.315? Would that be included in (d) 7 in the future?** 

**8 MR. MICHAEL REYER: I don't want to 9 make a comment on that right now. I would**  **10 have to get back to you. 11 MR. GREG BOWLES: Okay.**  **12 MR. MICHAEL REYER: Okay. Any 13 other questions?**  **14 Going on to 320. 320, ground 15 loads. This covers an entire section of the**  **16 current rules 470 through 537. The 17 applicant must determine the structural**  **18 design loads resulting from the following 19 ground and water operations: For airplanes**  **20 intended for operation on land-taxi, 21 takeoff, landing, and ground handling**  **22 conditions occurring in normal and adverse 23 attitudes and configurations.**  **24 Subparagraph (b), for airplanes 25 intended for operation on water-taxi,** Page 57 May 3, 2016

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### 1 takeoff and landing and water handling **2 conditions occurring in normal and adverse 3 attitudes and configurations in the most**  **4 severe, sea conditions expected in 5 operation. And then finally jacking and**  **6 towing loads. 7 Nobody? Okay.**  **8 325. This covers a fair amount of 9 the current rules too. Proposed 325,**  **10 component loading conditions, covers 345, 11 61, 63, 65 and then 371 through 425, 455 and** 

**12 459. 13 The applicant must determine the**  **14 structural design loads acting on: Each 15 engine mount and its supporting structure**  **16 resulting from engine operations combined 17 with gusts and maneuvers.**  **18 Subparagraph (b), each flight 19 control and high lift surface, their**  **20 associated system and supporting structure 21 resulting from the inertia of each surface**  **22 and mass balance attachment; gust and 23 maneuvers; pilot or automated system inputs;**  **24 system induced conditions, including jamming 25 and friction; and (5) ground operations,** Page 58 May 3, 2016

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### 1 including downwind taxi and ground gusts. **2 Subparagraph (c), for pressurized 3 cabins -- pressurized cabin resulting from**  **4 the pressurization differential from zero up 5 to the maximum relief valve setting combined**  **6 with gust and maneuver loads; from zero up 7 to the maximum relief valve setting combined**  **8 with ground and water loads if the airplane 9 may land with the cabin pressurized; and**  **10 then finally, at the maximum relief valve 11 setting multiplied by 1.33, acting as a --**  **12 without other load considerations. 13 Anyone?**  **14 And 330, just the definitions 15 basically of what limit and ultimate loads**  **16 are. This covers 301(a) and 303. 17 Unless special or other factors of**  **18 safety are necessary to meet the 19 requirements of this subpart, the applicant**  **20 must determine: (a), the limit loads, which 21 are equal to the structural design loads;**  **22 and, (b), the ultimate loads, which are 23 equal to the limit loads multiplied by one**  **24 and a half factor of safety. 25 Pretty much a direct translation of** Page 59 May 3, 2016

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### 1 what is in the current rule. **2 Okay. We will go on now to what we 3 call structural performance. These sections**  **4 are kind of in the end of, you know, what 5 the structure has to be capable of doing,**  **6 you know, to the loads that we have 7 calculated.**  **8 Structural strength, this 9 incorporates 305. The applicant must**  **10 demonstrate that the structure will support 11 limit loads without interference with the**  **12 operation of the airplane; and (2), 13 detrimental permanent deformation; and**  **14 ultimate loads. 15 Again, this is largely out of the**  **16 current wording of the regulations. I don't 17 really have anything too much to say about**  **18 that. Does anybody have a question? Okay. 19 Well, that is strength in a nutshell.**  **20 And now 405, which is structural 21 durability, or you might call it fatigue and**  **22 damage tolerance. The current rules have, 23 you know, the prescriptive methods, safe**  **24 life, damages or fail safe and we, of 25 course, wanted to leave those options** Page 60 May 3, 2016

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### 1 available to people but, of course, take the **2 prescriptive content out of the current rule 3 as much as possible. So paragraph (a) is**  **4 really the statement of the intent of the 5 previous fatigue and damage rules which are**  **6 571 through 575 and 627. 7 Paragraph (a): The applicant must**  **8 develop and implement procedures to prevent 9 structural failures due to foreseeable**  **10 causes of strength degradation, which could 11 result in serious or fatal injuries, loss of**  **12 the airplane, or extended periods of 13 operation with reduced safety margins. The**  **14 Instructions For Continued Airworthiness 15 must include procedures developed under this**  **16 section. 17 We did retain a few of the more**  **18 prescriptive requirements especially in 19 Subpart (c); that came from the jet rule.**  **20 And that is one place where, you know, an 21 altitude limitation was kept.**  **22 Subparagraph (b), if a pressurized 23 cabin and two or more compartments separated**  **24 by bulkheads or a floor, the applicant must 25 design the structure for a sudden release of** Page 61 May 3, 2016

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### 1 pressure in any compartment that has a door **2 or a window, considering failure of the 3 largest door or window opening in the**  **4 compartment. 5 This is again from the jet rule.**  **6 For airplanes with maximum operating 7 altitude greater than 41,000 feet, the**  **8 procedures developed for the compliance to 9 paragraph (a) of this section must be**  **10 capable of detecting damage to the 11 pressurized cabin structure before the**  **12 damage could result in rapid decompression 13 that would result in serious or fatal**  **14 injuries. 15 And finally, the roto-burst: The**  **16 airplane must be capable of continued safe 17 flight and landing with structural damage**  **18 caused by high-energy fragments from an 19 uncontained engine or rotating machinery**  **20 failure. 21 And that last bit is kind of meant**  **22 to include an electric propulsion system 23 where you might have a rapidly rotating**  **24 aperture arm or something like that. It 25 could have the same kind of effect that a** Page 62 May 3, 2016

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### 1 rotor blade or something like that could

**2 have. 3 And that is it for my section.**  **4 Does anybody have questions or final 5 questions or comments? No. Okay. Well**  **6 thank you. 7 Mark James is up next for the rest**  **8 of the Subpart (c) and D. 9 MR. MARK JAMES: Good morning. I**  **10 am Mark James. I work in the Small Airplane 11 Directorate for Bill Schinstock on standard**  **12 staff and I will be covering the rest of the 13 structure section.**  **14 So the first rule we are proposing, 15 23.410, aeroelasticity. This captures the**  **16 safety intent of the original 23.629 flutter 17 section along with 677, Paragraph (c), trim**  **18 systems; 687, spring devices in part. 19 Paragraph (a) says the airplane**  **20 must be free from flutter, control reversal, 21 and divergence at all speeds within and**  **22 sufficiently beyond the structural design 23 envelope; for any configuration and**  **24 condition of operation; accounting for 25 critical degrees of freedom; and accounting** Page 63 May 3, 2016

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### 1 for any critical failures or malfunctions. **2 And in paragraph (b), the applicant 3 must establish and account for tolerances**  **4 for all quantities that affect flutter. Any 5 questions on that?**  **6 And now we will move on to design, 7 which was previously Subpart D, design and**  **8 construction. So we are proposing 23.500, 9 which captures the safety intent of 601,**  **10 design and construction; 603, materials and 11 workmanship, paragraph (b); 671, control**  **12 systems-general, and paragraph (a); 683, 13 operational tests; 687, spring devices, in**  **14 part; and 689, cable systems. 15 We propose, paragraph (a), the**  **16 applicant must design each part, article, 17 and assembly for the expected operating**  **18 conditions of the airplane; (b), design data 19 must adequately define the part, article, or**  **20 assembly configuration, its design features, 21 and any materials and processes used; (c),**  **22 the applicant must determine the suitability 23 of each design detail and part having an**  **24 important bearing on safety and operations; 25 (d), the control system must be free from** Page 64 May 3, 2016

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### 1 jamming, excessive friction, and excessive **2 deflection when the control system and its 3 supporting structure are subjected to loads**  **4 corresponding to the limit airloads; the 5 primary controls are subjected to the lesser**  **6 of the limit airloads or limit pilot forces; 7 and the secondary controls are subjected to**  **8 loads not less than those corresponding to 9 maximum pilot effort.**  **10 Any questions or feedback on that? 11 Moving on. 23.505 is supposed to**  **12 capture the safety intent of 607, fasteners; 13 609, protection of structure; and 611,**  **14 accessibility. 15 We propose paragraph (a): The**  **16 applicant must protect each part of the 17 airplane, including small parts such as**  **18 fasteners, against deterioration or loss of 19 strength due to any cause likely to occur in**  **20 the expected operational environment. 21 (b), each part of the airplane must**  **22 have adequate provisions for ventilation and 23 drainage.**  **24 And, (c), for each part that 25 requires maintenance, preventative** Page 65 May 3, 2016

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### 1 maintenance, or servicing, the applicant **2 must incorporate a means into the aircraft 3 design to allow such actions to be**  **4 accomplished. 5 MR. GREG BOWLES: Question:**  **6 23.505(a), do you anticipate that section 7 would also address corrosion?** 

**8 MR. MARK JAMES: I don't want to 9 comment on that, but I will take that as a**  **10 comment and we will give you -- address it 11 in the final preamble.**  **12 Okay. 23.510. We propose to 13 capture the safety intent of the original**  **14 605, fabrication methods; and 613, material 15 strength properties and design values.**  **16 This is -- that was the original 17 section that captured what we typically**  **18 refer to as A- and B-basis allowables. 19 We propose, paragraph (a), the**  **20 applicant must determine the suitability and 21 durability of materials used for parts,**  **22 articles, and assemblies, the failure of 23 which could prevent continued safe flight**  **24 and landing. The applicant must account for 25 the effects of likely environmental** Page 66 May 3, 2016

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### 1 conditions expected in service. **2 The methods and processes of 3 fabrication and assembly used must produce**  **4 consistently sound structures. If a 5 fabrication process requires close control**  **6 to reach this objective, the applicant must 7 perform the process under an approved**  **8 process specification. 9 Except as provided in paragraphs**  **10 (f) and (g) of this section, the applicant 11 must select design values that ensure**  **12 material strength with probabilities that 13 account for the criticality of the**  **14 structural element. Design values must 15 account for the probability of structural**  **16 failure due to material variability. 17 This was the section that was**  **18 previously the A- and B-basis Allowables and 19 what was very prescriptive in nature is now**  **20 a method of compliance. 21 Paragraph (d), if material strength**  **22 properties are required, a determination of 23 those properties must be based on sufficient**  **24 tests of material meeting specifications to 25 establish design values on a statistical** Page 67 May 3, 2016

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### 1 basis. **2 If thermal effects are significant 3 on an essential component or structure under**  **4 normal operating conditions, the applicant 5 must determine those effects on allowable**  **6 stresses used for design. 7 Design values, greater than the**  **8 minimum specified by this section, may be 9 used, where only guaranteed minimum values**  **10 are normally allowed, if a specimen of each 11 individual item is tested before use to**  **12 determine that the actual strength 13 properties of that particular item will**  **14 equal or exceed those used in the design. 15 And, paragraph (g) is an additional**  **16 paragraph that Part 25 has had for years 17 that we have added in: An applicant may use**  **18 other material design values if approved by 19 the Administrator.**  **20 So if there is no questions on 21 that, we will move on to 515, special**  **22 factors of safety, which is meant to capture 23 the safety intent of 619, special factors;**  **24 621, casting factors; 623, bearing factors; 25 625, fitting factors; 657, hinges; 681,** Page 68 May 3, 2016

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### 1 paragraph (b), limit load and static test, **2 in part; and 693, joints. 3 We propose paragraph (a): The**  **4 applicant must determine a special factor of 5 safety for any critical design value that is**  **6 uncertain; used for a part, article, or 7 assembly that is likely to deteriorate in**  **8 service before normal replacement; or 9 subject to appreciable variability because**  **10 of uncertainties in manufacturing processes 11 or inspection methods.**  **12 Paragraph (b), the applicant must 13 determine a special factor of safety using**  **14 quality controls and specifications that 15 account for each structural application;**  **16 inspection method; structural test 17 requirement; sampling percentage; and**  **18 process and material control. 19 Paragraph (c), the applicant must**  **20 apply any special factor of safety in the 21 design for each part of the structure by**  **22 multiplying each limit load and ultimate 23 load by the special factor of safety.**  **24 Yes, Greg? 25 MR. GREG BOWLES: Another** Page 69 May 3, 2016

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### 1 clarification, 23.515(c) under today's **2 amendment do we apply factors of safety to 3 limit load as well as ultimate load?** 

**4 MR. MARK JAMES: Yes. 5 MR. GREG BOWLES: Okay. Thank you.**  **6 And then we will move on to 23.600, 7 emergency conditions. And this is one where**  **8 we had hoped to see the industry take the 9 lead in coming with some holistic**  **10 approaches. This is meant to capture the 11 safety intent of 23.561, emergency landing**  **12 conditions, general; 23.562, emergency 13 landing dynamic conditions; 23.785, seats,**  **14 berths, litters, safety belts, and shoulder 15 harnesses; and 23.787, baggage and cargo**  **16 compartment. 17 We propose paragraph (a), the**  **18 airplane, even when damaged in an emergency 19 landing, must protect each occupant against**  **20 injury that would preclude egress when 21 properly using safety equipment and features**  **22 provided for in the design; the occupant 23 experiences ultimate static inertia loads**  **24 likely to occur in an emergency landing; and 25 items of mass, including engines or** Page 70 May 3, 2016

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### 1 auxiliary power units, within or aft of the **2 cabin, that could injure an occupant, 3 experience ultimate static inertia loads**  **4 likely to occur in an emergency landing. 5 Paragraph (b), the emergency**  **6 landing conditions specified in paragraph 7 (a) of this section, must include dynamic**  **8 conditions that are likely to occur with an 9 impact at stall speed, accounting for**  **10 variations in aircraft mass, flight path 11 angle, flight pitch angle, and yaw and**  **12 airplane configuration, including likely 13 failure conditions at impact; and not exceed**  **14 established human injury criteria for human 15 tolerance due to restraint or contact with**  **16 objects in the airplane. 17 The airplane must have seating and**  **18 restraints for all occupants. The airplane 19 seating, restraints, and cabin interior must**  **20 account for likely flight and emergency 21 landing conditions.**  **22 And it continues on to paragraph 23 (d), each occupant restraint system must**  **24 consist of a seat, a method to restrain the 25 occupant's pelvis and torso, and a single** Page 71 May 3, 2016

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### 1 action restraint release. For all flight **2 and ground loads during normal operation and 3 any emergency landing conditions, the**  **4 restraint system must perform its intended 5 function and not create a hazard that could**  **6 cause a secondary injury to an occupant. 7 The restraint system must not prevent**  **8 occupant egress or interfere with the 9 operation of the airplane when not in use.**  **10 Paragraph (e), each baggage and 11 cargo compartment must be designed for its**  **12 maximum weight of contents and for the 13 critical load distributions at the maximum**  **14 load factors corresponding to the flight and 15 ground load conditions determined under this**  **16 part: Have a means to prevent the contents 17 of the compartment from becoming a hazard by**  **18 impacting occupants or shifting; and protect 19 any controls, wiring, lines, equipment, or**  **20 accessories whose damage or failure would 21 affect operations.**  **22 That covers what was originally 23 referred to as the dynamic seat rule. Any**  **24 comments or questions on this? Okay. 25 That finishes up the section on** Page 72 May 3, 2016

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### 1 structures. So I don't know -- what do we **2 have up next? Do you want to do it?**

**3 MR. BILL SCHINSTOCK: So we are 4 well ahead of schedule, as you can tell. We**  **5 are scrambling a little bit trying to decide 6 how to handle it, but since we are so far**  **7 ahead of schedule, I will give you one more 8 chance if anybody has anything that we have**  **9 not covered if they would like to comment on 10 or ask questions about that, otherwise, we**  **11 will take a short break and chart our course 12 for the remainder of the day.**  **13 MR. BILL BRODEGARD: This is Bill 14 Brodegard from Aspen Avionics. I have just**  **15 one other structures question. I apologize, 16 it had to sit in my head for a moment. But**  **17 there was that one section where it said 18 that the structure has to be established by**  **19 tests. And from an article manufacturer 20 like myself, the -- does that mean every**  **21 applicant has to demonstrate by test all the 22 structural aspects or are there going to be**  **23 some kind of standards that we can show 24 that, okay, our equipment meets this**  **25 particular standard? And there was another**Page 73 May 3, 2016

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### 1 question I had about it must be approved and **2 I did not know who approved it. 3 MR. MARK JAMES: I think that I**  **4 know what section you are referring to. I 5 will try to get back to it here. Thank you.**  **6 MR. BILL BRODEGARD: Thank you, 7 just -- I think that it was just before that** 

**8 one. 9 MR. MARK JAMES: Just before this** 

**10 one? 11 MR. BILL BRODEGARD: No, it was a**  **12 longer one. Continued safe flight and 13 landing, I think, had it.**  **14 MR. MARK JAMES: You are talking 15 about paragraph (a)?**  **16 MR. BILL BRODEGARD: Let's see, 17 the -- yeah, let's see. It says: (d), if**  **18 the material strength properties are 19 required, a determination of those**  **20 properties must be based on sufficient tests 21 of material meeting the specifications -- I**  **22 am not sure what that -- you know, I think 23 about them, you know, mounting my equipment**  **24 on a shelf that has been prepared for 25 accepting my equipment. Does the applicant,** Page 74 May 3, 2016

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### 1 me, have to go through testing in order to **2 verify that that is okay or do we use the -- 3 you know, the statements from the**  **4 manufacturer, you know, that it's adequate 5 or, you know, those kind of things? I am**  **6 just -- I don't want get into dynamic 7 testing.** 

**8 MR. MARK JAMES: I understand. I 9 appreciate the comment and so what I am**  **10 hearing you say, if I can try to phrase it 11 differently, is that we need to clarify when**  **12 and who has to do what testing for the 13 materials and whether it's primary structure**  **14 or secondary structure or tertiary**

**15 structure -- 16 MR. BILL BRODEGARD: Right.**  **17 MR. MARK JAMES: Is that kind of 18 exactly what you are getting it at?** 

**19 MR. BILL BRODEGARD: Yes. And then 20 on (b) there, it says perform the process**  **21 under an approval process specification. Is 22 that an FAA approved process specification?**  **23 Is that an accepted industry standard or how 24 is that approved?**  **25 MR. MARK JAMES: So your comment is**Page 75 May 3, 2016

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### 1 that we would like -- you would like to **2 clarify what we mean by who approves the 3 specification?** 

**4 MR. BILL BRODEGARD: Yes. 5 MR. MARK JAMES: If you would**  **6 please put those in a comment on the docket 7 we appreciate it and we will address that.**  **8 MR. BILL BRODEGARD: Okay. 9 MR. MARK JAMES: Thank you.**  **10 MR. RIC PERI: I appreciate the 11 fact that we started this evolution ten**  **12 years ago by highlighting the fact that, you 13 know, my car is, you know, more advanced**  **14 than my airplane. In paragraph (d), in 15 particular, you're perpetuating a criteria**  **16 that, in fact, was revised in the automotive 17 standards in 1972 in that they revised the**  **18 1968 standard by allowing for a complete 19 passive protection system, and yet we are**  **20 still locked into the, you know, seat belts 21 and pelvis and torso. I would suggest that**  **22 you take a look at the Department of 23 Transportation automotive standards with**  **24 regards to restraint systems for passengers 25 and see if we can't modernize this beyond** Page 76 May 3, 2016

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### 1 1960. **2 MR. BILL SCHINSTOCK: Thank you, 3 Ric. We will take that under advisement and**  **4 address it in the final preamble. 5 MR. PAT MULLEN: So, Ric, could you**  **6 describe a little bit what DOT's passive 7 restraining system is and what it comprises** 

**8 of? 9 MR. RIC PERI: They don't define**  **10 it. Okay. What they say is that under the 11 standard 208 of NHTSA, which is the National**  **12 Highway Transportation Safety, occupy crash 13 protection -- this standard originally**  **14 specified the type of occupant restraint; 15 i.e., seat belts required. It was amended**  **16 to specify performance requirements for 17 anthropomorphic test dummies seated in the**  **18 front outboard seats of passenger cars and 19 of certain multi-purpose vehicles including**  **20 the active and passive restraint systems 21 identified below. The purpose of the**  **22 standard is to reduce the number of 23 fatalities and the number and severity of**  **24 injuries of occupants involved in frontal**

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### 1 There has been a number of reports **2 of the damage of legacy seat belts in 3 accidents, which is why they basically said,**  **4 hey, if you can create, you know, the 5 ultimate bean bag chair and protect**  **6 somebody, you are free to do that. And so 7 while the technology and the availability**  **8 may not be readily there, we are locking 9 ourselves into a standard that reality is**  **10 that we may have automotive standards that 11 we can't put into aircraft because of that.**  **12 And so what I would suggest is that we marry**

**13 them to make sure that we have those same 14 opportunities.**  **15 MR. MARK JAMES: Thank you. That 16 is a very good comment. I appreciate that.**  **17 MR. BILL SCHINSTOCK: Anybody else? 18 All right. Let's take a 15-minute break and**  **19 we will get together up here and chart our 20 course for the rest of the day. Thank you.**  **21 (Recess.) 22 MR. PAT MULLEN: Okay. Thank you**  **23 everybody and good morning again. 24 Obviously, as you know, we are pretty far**  **25 ahead on the agenda and that is a good thing**Page 78 May 3, 2016

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### 1 but it also presents some challenges and we **2 think that we have a game plan that we want 3 to go over with you, and Bill is going to go**  **4 over that with you. 5 The one thing that I wanted to**  **6 mention is this is a public meeting and I 7 don't know if -- I appreciate -- there has**  **8 been some good dialogue that we have heard 9 from GAMA and AEA and we appreciate that**  **10 input, but don't be afraid to tell us 11 exactly what is on your mind. I mean, we**  **12 are not sitting here pretending that we have 13 done the perfect job and that our rule is**  **14 perfect. If you think that we are missing 15 something, if you think that we missed the**  **16 point or are not as clear or are too -- or 17 we are too ambiguous on a proposed rule, let**  **18 us know. It's okay. I really -- please 19 don't be shy. I know that we have a Court**  **20 Reporter and everything is going to be 21 recorded and placed in the docket, but I**  **22 just encourage your input and your feedback, 23 so I just wanted to mention that so, thank**  **24 you, and if I can present -- hand it back 25 over to Bill.** Page 79 May 3, 2016

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### 1 MR. BILL SCHINSTOCK: Okay. A **2 little bit of old business, first, I was 3 asked about the copy of the transcript. The**  **4 plan is to put the transcript in the docket 5 and it would be available there for anybody**  **6 who wants to make a copy of or print it out 7 or whatever, but it would be in the docket.**  **8 It does say that you can order it directly 9 but that information will be in the docket** 

**10 on how to do that. I don't know the answer 11 to that, but it will be available in the**  **12 docket to the public. 13 So for the rest of the day, as Pat**  **14 said, we are well ahead of schedule. Our 15 plan is to present Subpart (d) next. And**  **16 when we get through that we will take a look 17 at it. If we have time before lunch we will**  **18 go through Subpart (g) and finish that and 19 then we will open the floor to anybody that** 

**20 has comments that wants to make a 21 presentation or anything along those lines.**  **22 And then if -- when we run out of topics to 23 discuss today, we will break for the day --**  **24 the remainder of the day and then start up 25 tomorrow as planned.** Page 80 May 3, 2016

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### 1 Tomorrow we will cover Subparts E **2 and (f) and then again, once again, open the 3 door for any public comment or presentation**  **4 and leave the floor open as long as 5 necessary to let everybody speak their**  **6 peace. But as Pat said, please, feel free 7 to provide us with the comments here today**  **8 and tomorrow. We would appreciate it. 9 Thank you.**  **10 Mark? 11 MR. MARK JAMES: Thank you, Bill.**  **12 You will have to excuse me. We had a 13 retirement in our ranks and our mechanical**  **14 systems engineer is gone and we have someone 15 replacing him but he was not on the team so**  **16 I am going to try to go through the 17 mechanical systems rules in Subpart (d) and**  **18 I will try not to bore you further with me 19 reading the rule to you. I will just let**  **20 you read the new proposed rule language for 21 this 23.700, flight control systems. But**  **22 what I will read to you is from the preamble 23 and what the rule is meant to capture in the**  **24 way of the safety intent from the original 25 language. This was meant to capture the** Page 81 May 3, 2016

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### 1 current Rule 23.677, trim systems, **2 paragraphs, (a), (b) and (d); 689, cable 3 systems, (a) and (f); 697, artificial stall**  **4 barrier systems; Paragraphs (a), (b), (d), 5 (e) and (f); 23.691, wing flap controls,**  **6 paragraphs (a); and 703, takeoff warning 7 systems, paragraphs (a) and (b).**  **8 And I will give you just a minute 9 to read that, and if everybody has -- oh,**  **10 there is somebody waiting right there. 11 MR. GREG BOWLES: Greg with GAMA.**  **12 23,700(a)(1)(iii), flutter, it appears to me 13 that flutter was already addressed in an**  **14 aeroelasticity section so it might make more 15 sense to not call it a specific hazard like**  **16 this, but to deal with it in its own way. 17 Also we had a question about, okay,**  **18 the stall barrier issue. Where was that? 19 That is on the next page; is that right?**  **20 MR. MARK JAMES: Do you want me to 21 go forward one?**  **22 MR. GREG BOWLES: No, that is okay. 23 That is -- I will ask that question in a**  **24 second. On this one, it's only a flutter 25 issue and I think that that should be only** Page 82 May 3, 2016

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### 1 addressed under aeroelasticity. **2 MR. MARK JAMES: So if there is no 3 more questions or comments, we will go on.**  **4 Oh, it looks like 700 continues. I will 5 give you a chance to read that.**  **6 MR. GREG BOWLES: So Greg, again, 7 from GAMA. 23.700(c)and (c)(1), (c)(2), so**  **8 a stall barrier system is eventually a 9 fly-by-wire and an unlimited point of use.**  **10 It's basically a very simple type of fly 11 wire or a pitch -- a pitch command**  **12 typically. We would see that only applying 13 those two conditions to stall barriers, may**  **14 not be the best path and the stall barriers 15 are a pretty prescriptive approach, so**  **16 potentially the rule as written also 17 addresses this limited stall barrier issue**  **18 and fly-by wire and this may be better**

**19 fodder for the standards. 20 MR. MARK JAMES: For the**  **21 standards -- oh, okay. 22 MR. GREG BOWLES: For the method of**  **23 compliance.**

**24 MR. MARK JAMES: You mean more of 25 compliance?** Page 83 May 3, 2016

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### 1 MR. GREG BOWLES: Yes. **2 MR. MARK JAMES: For ease of 3 compliance, yes.**  **4 MR. GREG BOWLES: Right.**

**5 MR. MARK JAMES: I see. 6 MR. GREG BOWLES: (C)(1) and (2)**  **7 dealing with stall barriers is a detailed 8 kind of solution for one condition and it's**  **9 a good one, and those are certainly checks. 10 There are potentially more things that you**  **11 want to check with the stall barrier system. 12 Just because it does those two things does**  **13 not necessarily mean that that is the one 14 that you want on your airplane, so I would**  **15 suggest that that would be better in a means 16 of compliance.**  **17 MR. MARK JAMES: Okay. Thank you. 18 If there is no other comments we will move**  **19 on to 23.705, landing gear systems. This is 20 meant to capture the safety intent of the**  **21 current 23.729, landing gear extension and 22 retraction systems, paragraphs (a), (b), (c)**  **23 and (d); 23.731, wheels; 733, tires, 24 paragraph (a); 735, brakes, paragraphs (a),**  **25 (b) and (e); 737, skis. And that is it on**Page 84 May 3, 2016

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### 1 that one. **2 Yes, Greg? 3 MR. GREG BOWLES: Greg with GAMA.**  **4 23.705(c), it talks about a reliable means 5 of stopping the airplane must provide**  **6 kinetic energy absorption with the 7 airplane's design specifications for**  **8 landing. 9 Would you envision this would be**  **10 addressed by friction when you look at 11 things like skis and flow planes?**  **12 MR. MARK JAMES: Okay. Thank you. 13 We will take that and address it in the**  **14 preamble. 15 No other questions. We will move**  **16 on to 710, buoyancy for seaplanes and 17 amphibians. This was meant to capture the**  **18 original safety intent of 751(a), main float 19 buoyancy; 755, hulls; and 757, auxiliary**  **20 floats. Pretty straightforward. 21 MR. GREG BOWLES: On 23.710(b),**  **22 specifying that if any two compartments of a 23 main hull are flooded the aircraft needs to**  **24 remain afloat is relatively restrictive. 25 There could be solutions like using** Page 85 May 3, 2016

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### 1 expandable foam and closed cell foam that do **2 not have compartments. You might have open 3 two compartments. You might have many,**  **4 many, many compartments, so it would be 5 better to just discuss that under any likely**  **6 failure condition or puncture that could 7 occur in the environment or landing service,**  **8 it would be better to meet this condition. 9 MR. MARK JAMES: Are you saying,**  **10 though, that if it did have the compartments 11 that you could address it by saying if you**  **12 have this design, you could do this or 13 something else? Is that what you are --** 

**14 MR. GREG BOWLES: So -- 15 MR. MARK JAMES: -- proposing?**  **16 MR. GREG BOWLES: Yes. So I think 17 that this could be a great solution, so**  **18 23.710(b) could be a great solution in means 19 of compliance.**  **20 MR. MARK JAMES: Thank you. 21 MR. GREG BOWLES: But the**  **22 performance-based rule might be better 23 worded if it were to address the condition**  **24 of likely puncture or likely failure or leak 25 and making sure that it does not capsize in** Page 86 May 3, 2016

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### 1 calm water. **2 MR. MARK JAMES: Okay. Thank you. 3 So moving on to proposed Rule 750,**  **4 means of egress and emergency exits. This 5 captures a rather lengthy list of items:**  **6 783, doors, paragraphs (a), (b), (c) and 7 (d); 791; 803, emergency evacuation,**  **8 paragraph (a); 805, flight crew emergency 9 exits; 807, emergency exits, except for**  **10 Paragraphs (a)(3), (b)(1), (c), (d)(1) and 11 (d)(4); paragraph -- or Rule 811, emergency**  **12 exit marking; 812, emergency lighting; 813, 13 emergency exit access, paragraph (a); and**  **14 815, width of aisles; and CS-VLA-783(a), 15 exits.** 

**16 MR. GREG BOWLES: I have another 17 question, 23.750(a), this is a question --**  **18 actually, a clarification question. 19 MR. MARK JAMES: Okay.**  **20 MR. GREG BOWLES: It specifies that 21 the evacuation of the aircraft needs to**  **22 occur within 90 seconds. In the past the 23 rule has -- the preamble -- the current rule**  **24 indicated that smaller part 23 aircraft 25 don't have capacities that would require --** Page 87 May 3, 2016

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### 1 that would necessitate the testing to show **2 that they could get out in 90 seconds and, 3 therefore, 90 seconds has not been held as a**  **4 standard. 5 I don't have a concern that we use**  **6 this as a threshold, but does the FAA 7 envision having to do a 90-second evacuation**  **8 test on all designs or would means of 9 compliance accept a reasonable number of**  **10 exits per passenger density or solutions 11 like this?**  **12 MR. MARK JAMES: Okay. Thank you. 13 Moving on to 755, occupant physical**  **14 environment. There is the proposed rule 15 language and this is intended to capture the**  **16 safety intent of portions of some of the 17 following rules: 771, 775, 831, 841, 843,**  **18 1441, 1443, 1445, 1447, 1449 and 1461. So 19 it's a rather lengthy -- it covers two**  **20 slides here. The titles for those rules I 21 just mentioned are in the preamble for the**  **22 NPRM. Any comments or questions on that? 23 Okay. Moving on. Fire and high**  **24 energy protection. Proposed Rule 23.800 25 fire protection outside designated fire** Page 88 May 3, 2016

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### 1 zones. Again, rather lengthy list of rules, **2 this captures the safety intent for 851, 3 853, 855, 856, 859, 863, 1359, 1365, 1383,**  **4 1385, and CS-VLA-853. Again, if you want to 5 know the titles of those sections, it's**  **6 published in the preamble. Also this one 7 continues on to the next slide. Any**  **8 questions or comments on this one? 9 Let's move on to 805, fire**  **10 protection in designated fire zones. This 11 is intended to capture the safety intent of**  **12 the original rule language in 865, 1359, and 13 that is it. Seeing no -- oh, yes, Ric.**  **14 MR. RIC PERI: Can you elaborate a 15 little bit more on the electrical cables**  **16 used during emergency procedures only in 17 that the -- pretty much the entire cockpit**  **18 has emergency procedures to it and I could 19 interpret that to be the entire avionics**  **20 suite at given applications, so could you 21 elaborate on what you are talking about** 

**22 here? 23 MR. MARK JAMES: I will have to**  **24 elaborate in the preamble when we respond to 25 the comment. Thank you. Or someone will.** Page 89 May 3, 2016

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### 1 MR. LOWELL FOSTER: If the original **2 author was here I think that we could 3 elaborate on it but Les Taylor retired but**  **4 as a rulemaking team we are still getting up 5 to speed on that section.** 

**6 MR. RIC PERI: And I would offer 7 it -- I would interpret that to be emergency**  **8 procedures, that is, in egress; but the fact 9 is that we have a whole lot of emergency**  **10 procedures in there, you know, such as, you 11 know, limited electronics and stuff like**  **12 that, which all could kind of touch that and 13 so it's just the clarification.** 

**14 MR. JIM BRADY: Just one 15 clarification. This is Jim Brady. This is**  **16 inside designated fire zones, so it's not 17 necessarily the entire avionics suite and**  **18 such. It would be more things like your 19 fuel control cables inside in a cell, those**  **20 type of things. 21 MR. MARK JAMES: Okay. Moving on**  **22 to 810, lightening protection of structure. 23 This is meant to capture the safety**  **24 intent of 867(a) and (c). And seeing no 25 questions or -- okay, here is one.** Page 90 May 3, 2016

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### 1 MR. GREG BOWLES: Some of the **2 policies that have been out recently related 3 to non-required safety enhancing equipment**  **4 and some other things have discussed that 5 part 23 airplanes are less likely for**  **6 lightning strike whether or not they are VFR 7 or IFR capable based on the size of the**  **8 aircraft and also based on the things that 9 they avoid, the type of weather that they**  **10 avoid. So my question would be, is 11 instrument versus visual the right**  **12 discriminator for this? 13 MR. MARK JAMES: Would you have a**  **14 proposal for other -- 15 MR. GREG BOWLES: The other**  **16 proposal that I will put on the floor, and 17 we will submit this in written comments as**  **18 well, would be it would have to be a 19 measured -- a more risk-based proposal based**  **20 on history and scale of the aircraft. I 21 guess scale and type of operation because**  **22 this is what seems to be avoiding of 23 lightning.**  **24 MR. MARK JAMES: Do you think that 25 the existing levels that we prescribed, the** Page 91 May 3, 2016

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### 1 Level 1 2, 3 and 4, would work for those? **2 MR. GREG BOWLES: Conceivably we 3 could pick a level, yeah, where we are**  **4 finding that it does and does not occur 5 based on data, past data, yeah.**  **6 MR. MARK JAMES: Okay. Thank you. 7 So if there is no other questions or**  **8 comments on that, that concludes this 9 section and so I think that we wanted to**  **10 have a break, is that right? No. Okay. 11 MR. LOWELL FOSTER: So we will**  **12 continue on with (g). 13 Yes, Ric?** 

**14 MR. RIC PERI: And I don't know 15 that this is not outside the scope of this**  **16 rulemaking, so I will start by saying that. 17 But, you know, as we look at**  **18 performance-based rules -- and, again, going 19 back to some of the challenges that the**  **20 light sport aircraft community has had in 21 this process, you know, we focus on IFR and**  **22 VFR, but there is an FAA legal 23 interpretation that says I can fly IFR in a**  **24 VFR aircraft. I cannot fly IMC. Okay. 25 Is it possible to make that** Page 92 May 3, 2016

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### 1 distinction here to where, you know -- and **2 this is a classic example. I believe what 3 you are trying to say is that where I am IMC**  **4 and have the possibly of unanticipated 5 lightning strike that I protect for it. But**  **6 the reality is if I am flying IFR in VMC, I**

**7 have no hazard. And so from a 8 performance-based perspective, it might be**  **9 good to make this transition from the 10 IFR/VFR concept into the IMC/VMC concept,**  **11 which is really what we are talking about. 12 MR. LOWELL FOSTER: Thank you. I**  **13 would agree I think that that is within the 14 scope and I definitely encourage you to**  **15 follow up with a written comment. 16 So we will jump ahead to Subpart**  **17 (g) and we will try to finish that up so 18 that we have time if anybody wants to make**  **19 comments before we adjourn for lunch, so 20 give me just a second and I will reset the**  **21 presentation. 22 So proposed 1500 actually is a**  **23 little bit new but incorporates a lot of -- 24 it incorporates anything that the pilot**  **25 would have monitored or controlled. That**Page 93 May 3, 2016

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### 1 was the intent of 1500. That means it's **2 capturing sections 23.699, 23.745, 1303, 3 1321, 1311, 771, 773, 777, 779 and 23.781.**  **4 So it's a substantial number of sections 5 from the current rule, however, all of those**  **6 relate to some aspect of the pilot or the 7 flightcrew and what they need to do to**  **8 control the airplane, hence, flightcrew 9 interface.**  **10 This rule, by the way, isn't 11 intended to add any burden so it's a parity**  **12 rule but the language should allow us to 13 really open the door to a lot of new**  **14 technologies so this is one of those rules 15 that I think will have a lot of merit on**  **16 safety. 17 MR. BILL BRODEGARD: It says, so**  **18 qualified flightcrew can monitor and perform 19 all tasks. The "all" is kind of scary, but**  **20 does that preclude systems from monitoring 21 things that the flightcrew would not**  **22 necessarily have to monitor all the time? 23 MR. LOWELL FOSTER: The intent was**  **24 that it did not limit anything so I would -- 25 I appreciate that comment.** Page 94 May 3, 2016

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### 1 MR. BILL BRODEGARD: Yes, because **2 it says flightcrew can monitor but there is 3 other things that they might --**  **4 MR. LOWELL FOSTER: So if the 5 language is limiting in a respect that we**  **6 may not be aware of, we would, please, 7 welcome your comment.**  **8 MR. BILL BRODEGARD: Right. 9 MR. LOWELL FOSTER: Anyone else?**  **10 Comments? Questions? 11 MR. BERNIE NEWMAN: Bernie Newman,**  **12 Astronautics. That last sentence which 13 talks about the possibility for a flightcrew**  **14 error resulting in a catastrophic event to 15 be highly unlikely. When I see catastrophic**  **16 and I see highly unlikely, traditionally I 17 view catastrophic to be associated with a**  **18 likelihood of extremely improbable. What is 19 this new phrasing here? What does it mean?**  **20 MR. LOWELL FOSTER: So that is a 21 very important comment and I appreciate you**  **22 pointing that out. Hopefully, you will 23 follow-up with a written comment, too, on** 

**24 that. 25 Anyone else?** Page 95 May 3, 2016

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### 1 All right. 1505, instrument **2 markings, control markings, and placards. 3 This captured a very large range of the**  **4 existing sections; however, most of the 5 sections in the current rule were basically**  **6 addressing one item, and it was a laundry 7 list. And in those cases they really were**  **8 details that were better or more appropriate 9 for means of compliance and so this has been**  **10 summed up. 11 So 1505 captures current 1505**  **12 through 1527 and 1541 through 1567. 13 All right. Any questions?**  **14 MR. NICK BOGNER: Actually, I am a 15 little slow. I would like to make a comment**  **16 on the 1500 from the prior slide. 17 MR. LOWELL FOSTER: No problem. Go**  **18 ahead. Can you speak up? 19 MR. NICK BOGNER: Nick Bogner. So**  **20 the question that that last sentence also 21 made me think of something and so it**  **22 addresses catastrophic and other language 23 and other sections of the new issue. We**  **24 talk about catastrophic hazardous and major. 25 So in the sake of being consistent, are we** Page 96 May 3, 2016

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### 1 only concerned with catastrophic here **2 without the other levels or not? So maybe 3 address it either more generally or more**  **4 specifically by covering all of the, you 5 know, important classifications that might**  **6 be a good consistency to have. 7 MR. LOWELL FOSTER: Okay. I**  **8 appreciate that. The -- if I -- so we have 9 had two comments on this. If I might, just**  **10 for clarification, try to understand that 11 perhaps the language used here could be**  **12 confusing because of how it's used in 13 traditional systems areas. Does that**  **14 capture some of the concerns that I have 15 heard?**  **16 MR. NICK BOGNER: A follow-up 17 question that I would say is depending on**  **18 what the intent here is. Do we want -- do 19 we meaningfully not include the other levels**  **20 of classification for a specific reason? If 21 there is a good reason, maybe the preamble**  **22 could address that. But if it really is 23 more general, which I assume it is, but**  **24 maybe that is the wrong assumption then, you 25 know, let's call that out --** Page 97 May 3, 2016

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### 1 MR. LOWELL FOSTER: Okay. **2 MR. NICK BOGNER: -- would be the 3 thought.**  **4 MR. LOWELL FOSTER: Yes, I 5 appreciate that. So we will be able to**  **6 expand on that on the preamble final rule 7 preamble.**  **8 Anyone else? All right. 1510, 9 airplane flight manual. And this captures**  **10 the existing 1581 through 1589, which was 11 very presumptive language dealing with the**  **12 flight manual. 13 Yes, Ric?**  **14 MR. RIC PERI: So in the current 15 regulations, 1581(b)(2), I think, or**  **16 something like that, discusses the fact that 17 only the limitation section actually has to**  **18 be approved and that the remainder of the 19 flight manual could be acceptable to the**  **20 administrator. What are you going to do 21 with that language? And are you making a**  **22 distinction between the approved flight 23 manual or the acceptability of the flight**  **24 manual, because it has a lot to do with 25 retrofit and how flight manual supplements** Page 98 May 3, 2016

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### 1 are addressed in that same light? So that **2 language in there, there is a very specific 3 thing in there for aircraft under 6000**  **4 pounds and some relief that was put into the 5 rule in multiple rule makings ago that looks**  **6 like it has been lost here. 7 MR. LOWELL FOSTER: Okay. Very**  **8 good comment. I appreciate that. Thank 9 you.**  **10 Any other comments on the flight**

**11 manual? 12 MR. BILL BRODEGARD: I won't like**  **13 it if I don't say something. It says: Any 14 information necessary for the operation of**  **15 the airplane. What is meant by necessary? 16 MR. LOWELL FOSTER: Okay.**  **17 MR. BILL BRODEGARD: I don't know. 18 MR. LOWELL FOSTER: That is a good**  **19 comment. Thank you. 20 Let's move on to the last rule,**  **21 which is instructions for continued air 22 worthiness. And I believe the language that**  **23 is here is verbatim from the current rule. 24 The only change is the number.**  **25 Any comments, questions?**Page 99 May 3, 2016

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### 1 Okay. So that finishes that. And **2 I think we are way ahead of schedule. 3 Obviously, we planned for a lot of**  **4 discussion and that is fine. That is great. 5 We have some time now before we adjourn for**  **6 today if anybody wants to make a general 7 comment or has any general questions or you**  **8 remembered something from one of the 9 subparts discussed this morning that maybe**  **10 you want to revisit. I think that we have 11 the time to look at that if you would like**  **12 or any other information that you would like 13 to present. Not completely open-ended**  **14 however. 15 MR. ANDY SAPINI: Andy Sapini with**  **16 Textron Aviation. 17 I would just like to thank FAA for**  **18 undertaking this massive effort. We have a 19 shared interest in seeing it be successful**  **20 for our industry. I just wanted to make a 21 couple of general comments, not specifically**  **22 about this subpart or any other subpart. I 23 don't intend to get into a lot of detail. I**  **24 don't want to duplicate anything that GAMA 25 has already stated, but some high-level** Page 100 May 3, 2016

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### 1 issues that are very important to us at **2 Textron Aviation. 3 First and foremost is**  **4 harmonization. Harmonization with global 5 authorities has obvious certification cost**  **6 implications and that is very, very 7 important to us, so our hope is that FAA**  **8 continues to move in the direction of 9 harmonization with other global authorities.**  **10 We are seeing good movement in that area. 11 We would like to see that continue.**  **12 A second item that is important is 13 maintaining a path to future technology.**  **14 You know, as we look through the rules -- 15 and there have been a number of comments**  **16 made this morning already. I am sure that 17 there will be some more tomorrow as we get**  **18 into the other subparts. When the rule 19 language contains references to legacy**  **20 technology and legacy configurations, to me 21 that is an indicator that as we go forward**  **22 and introduce new technologies there will be 23 many times when special conditions and other**  **24 avenues will be required and those are 25 specifically the kinds of things that we are** Page 101 May 3, 2016

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### 1 trying to get away from in the new rule **2 languages; getting away from special 3 conditions and such. So whenever we see**  **4 legacy technologies and configurations in 5 rule language, I think that is a bit of a**  **6 signal that maybe we have missed the mark on 7 seeing the future.**  **8 Now, don't get me wrong. We have 9 done a lot of good work and there is a lot**  **10 of future technology accommodation here, but 11 I think that there are some elements left to**  **12 go. You know, we all know that this rule 13 must stand the test of time. We don't want**  **14 to do this again. We can't do this again, 15 most likely, in the next, you know, decade,**  **16 so the rule has to stand the test of time. 17 And the third item that I would**  **18 like to hit on is safety-intent-based 19 language. I think, again, we have come a**  **20 long way in expressing safety intent. That 21 gives the applicant the opportunity to find**  **22 new innovative ways to meet that safety 23 intent. Innovation almost always brings**  **24 along new, exciting products and that is 25 obviously very important to our industry is** Page 102 May 3, 2016

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### 1 to have new, exciting products. So moving **2 away from prescriptive language and moving 3 towards safety intent language, I think that**  **4 that will go a long way towards allowing 5 innovation and exciting new products to**  **6 reinvigorate rate the industry. 7 And Textron Aviation has generated**  **8 a plethora of written comments which will be 9 submitted before the closing date. I do not**  **10 have any intent to reiterate what all these 11 detailed technical comments are right now,**  **12 but I just wanted to hit on those high 13 points.**  **14 MR. LOWELL FOSTER: I appreciate 15 it, Andy. Thank you. All good points.** 

**16 MR. WELDON WAINRIGHT: I am Weldon 17 Wainright. I am a consultant at powerplant**  **18 BER. Just one question, since we have 19 renumbered all the regulations in there,**  **20 what will happen with all the advisory 21 circulars, say, 238(c), 2316, all the ones**  **22 that we are using right now for guidance? 23 How will that tie to the new regs? Do you**  **24 go back and rewrite some of this or how will 25 this happen?** Page 103 May 3, 2016

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### 1 MR. LOWELL FOSTER: I am getting a **2 sign just to ask you to speak up. 3 MR. WELDON WAINRIGHT: I am sorry.**  **4 Let me repeat it again. Since we renumbered 5 all the regulations and we changed some of**  **6 that prescriptive language and we have 7 gotten rid of it, so tying back to the**  **8 advisory circulars right now, which is 9 really the minutia of how you meet the**  **10 regulations, will 238(c), some of these, 11 will these be rewritten to reflect all the**  **12 new regulations and capture some of the 13 testing requirements that we currently have?**  **14 MR. LOWELL FOSTER: So that is a 15 really good question and the answer is that**  **16 is an extensive list. Our plan is to use 17 the cross-reference table that is in the**  **18 rule, near term. And those ACs are still 19 active and in play. The long-term view or**  **20 the long-term goal is to kind of restructure 21 or rebuild and replace them. But currently**  **22 they are still active and you will just use**

**23 the cross-reference table. 24 MR. JEFF WILLIAMS: Jeff Williams**  **25 from Astronautics. I had one -- I had one**Page 104 May 3, 2016

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### 1 question. **2 MR. LOWELL FOSTER: Speak up. 3 There you go.**  **4 MR. JEFF WILLIAMS: A couple of 5 slides ago, it was 23.1505 on this from the**  **6 marking. It says the applicant must clearly 7 mark each cockpit control as to function and**  **8 method of operation. 9 So we are an article manufacturer**  **10 and we mark all of this stuff. Is the 11 applicant supposed to mark all of these**  **12 things or is that something that comes 13 from -- that's already in an article?**  **14 The other thing is as to function 15 and operation of -- method of operation. So**  **16 if you have a punch button or a knob, this 17 would seem to say that you would have to**  **18 mark it, clearly mark it as turn left, right 19 or something. I mean, I am not sure how you**  **20 can do that. If it's a push button, you 21 push it. Just a comment.** 

**22 MR. LOWELL FOSTER: Good comments. 23 On your first comment relating to the**  **24 applicant in that language, what I think I 25 heard you say or the scenario you gave was** Page 105 May 3, 2016

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### 1 perhaps a vendor has a product that will be **2 installed by the applicant. The vendor will 3 label those things, those functions. And so**  **4 how does that fit with the rule that says 5 the applicant shall, correct?** 

**6 MR. JEFF WILLIAMS: Yes. 7 MR. LOWELL FOSTER: Anyone else?**  **8 It's open mic. 9 All right. Well, all right. Since**  **10 we don't have any other comments, I tell you 11 what, we will plan on reconvening tomorrow**  **12 at 8:00 a.m. and we will go through Subparts 13 (e) and (f) and then again have a chance to**  **14 revisit anything that we have talked about 15 today or tomorrow for the folks that may**  **16 only be attending tomorrow's meeting and 17 then we will also give you another chance if**  **18 you have comments or concerns that you want 19 to share with the mic.**  **20 All right. Well, thank you. We 21 really appreciate your attendance and**  **22 participation. Thank you. 23 (Proceedings concluded at 11:20 a.m.)** 

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### 1 CERTIFICATE **2 COUNTY OF FULTON 3 STATE OF GEORGIA**  **4 I, Susan DeCarlo, Notary Public and 5 Certified Court Reporter, do hereby certify that**  **6 I reported in machine shorthand foregoing 7 proceedings on May 3, 2016, that the foregoing**  **8 pages, numbered from 1 to 105 inclusive, were 9 prepared under my personal supervision and**  **10 constitutes a true and correct record of the 11 proceedings.**  **12 This the 23rd of May 2016.**

**13**

**____________________________ 14 Susan DeCarlo, Notary Public**  **and Certified Court Reporter 15 Commission Expires 10-12-2016**  **Certificate number 2125 16** 

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