### Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Committee Meeting 08-26-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 1 DEPARTMENT OF ENERGY

APPLIANCE STANDARDS AND RULEMAKING FEDERAL ADVISORY COMMITTEE MEETING

Department of Energy 1000 Independence Avenue SW Forrestal Building Suite 8E-089 Washington, D.C. 20585

Monday, August 26, 2013 10:03 a.m.

Reported by: Christine Allen, Capital Reporting Company

### Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Committee Meeting 08-26-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 2 1 A P P E A R A N C E S 2 FACILITATOR: 3 Neil Eisner 4 5 DOE and ASRAC Representatives: 6 Ashley Armstrong, U.S. Department of Energy 7 Laura Barhydt, U.S. Department of Energy 8 9 INDUSTRY PARTICIPANTS: 10 Karim Amrane, Air-Conditioning, Heating and 11 Refrigeration 12 Institute 13 Timothy Ballo, EarthJustice 14 Jeff Bauman, National Refrigeration & Air-Conditioning 15 David Calabrese, AHRI 16 Mary Dane, Traulsen 17 Paul Doppel, Mitsubishi Electric US, Inc. 18 Brian Ferriol, Underwriters Laboratories, LLC 19 Mark Fly, AAON Heating & Cooling Products 20 Derek Greenauer, Global Government Affairs Management 21 Geoffrey Halley, ABMA 22 Randy Haseman, Underwriters Laboratories, LLC

### Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Committee Meeting 08-26-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 3 1 A P P E A R A N C E S (cont'd) 2 Charles Hon, True Manufacturing 3 Jill Hootman, Trane 4 John Hurst, Hex Technologies, Inc. 5 Tom Johnson, Daikin McQuay 6 Jeff Kleiss, Lochinvar 7 Karen Meyers, Rheem Manufacturing Co. 8 Peter Molvie, Cleaver Brooks 9 Frank Myers, PVI Industries, Inc. 10 Kent Peterson, P2S Engineering, Inc. 11 Harvey Sachs, American Council for an Energy-Efficient 12 Economy 13 John Hurst, Hex Technologies, Inc. 14 Tom Johnson, Daikin McQuay 15 Jeff Kleiss, Lochinvar 16 Karen Meyers, Rheem Manufacturing Co. 17 Peter Molvie, Cleaver Brooks 18 Frank Myers, PVI Industries, Inc. 19 Kent Peterson, P2S Engineering, Inc. 20 Harvey Sachs, American Council for an Energy-Efficient 21 Economy 22 Ronald Shebik, Hussmann Corporation

### Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Committee Meeting 08-26-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 4 1 A P P E A R A N C E S (cont'd) 2 Judd Smith, CSA 3 Louis Starr, NEEA 4 Mike Stem, Intertek 5 Phillip Stephens, HTP 6 Bill Tritsis, AHRI 7 Robert Whitwell, Carrier Corporation 8 9 NAVIGANT: 10 Laura Degitz 11 Aris Maranton 12 Michael Rivest 13 Collin Weber 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22

### Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Committee Meeting 08-26-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 5 1 P R O C E E D I N G S 2 MR. EISNER: Is everybody ready? You want to 3 start off by summing up boilers and motors and status 4 from the last couple weeks? 5 MS. BARHYDT: Hello, everyone. Welcome back. 6 This is Laura Barhydt with the U.S. Department of 7 Energy. 8 Over the last 2 weeks, the boiler 9 manufacturers had a couple of meetings discussing 10 verification testing. There was a request made for AHRI 11 to provide some information about the testing that they 12 have done of boilers through their verification program 13 over the years. And Frank provided some of that via e14 mail, but I think that there were some additional 15 questions that folks were hoping Frank could talk to 16 tomorrow because Frank wasn't going to be here today. 17 My sense was that there was general support 18 for some kind of verification testing of smaller units. 19 And where exactly that breaking point is was yet to be 20 determined. It sounded like it was somewhere between 21 2.5 million and 5 million BTUs; that there was general 22 agreement against any verification testing of larger

### Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Committee Meeting 08-26-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 6 1 boilers, but there was one person, Pete Molvie, was 2 very opposed to any verification testing of boilers at 3 all. 4 In the HVAC area, we met with the motor 5 manufacturers to talk about the basic model motor swap6 out issue and that was two weeks ago. The HVAC 7 manufacturers were going to provide information to the 8 motor manufacturers about the different types of motors 9 that they usually use in real-life scenarios swapping 10 out. And I believe they got that information to NEMA 11 last Tuesday, and NEMA said that they will not be able 12 to get back until Wednesday afternoon this week with 13 the details of what they're trying to work out in terms 14 of determining efficiency across different motor types. 15 That does raise a challenge for us in that we 16 have timing constraints. And we are looking at how to 17 vote out the issue in a timely manner for us to get a 18 proposal to ASRAC for ASRAC to vote on. And by not 19 getting that feedback from the motor manufacturers 20 until late Wednesday, there's been some concern about 21 whether or not there'd be enough time to look at what 22 the motor manufacturers have come up with and to

### Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Committee Meeting 08-26-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 7 1 actually vote on that aspect of it. That is obviously 2 an essential part of the basic model negotiation, and 3 so I don't think we can vote that out for the HVAC 4 unless we have that piece. 5 So Neil has suggested maybe there'd be a 6 possibility of a telecon Thursday morning. I know 7 nobody wanted to be here an extra day, but if there's a 8 possibility to just talk through the issues late 9 Wednesday and then possibly a shorter telecon to talk 10 through any remaining issues and possibly vote that out 11 Thursday morning. 12 The other thought was -- and, Ashley, correct 13 me if I'm wrong -- but ASRAC is not meeting until the 14 second full week of September. And so even though our 15 deadline, maybe we could miss it by a little bit -- 16 MS. ARMSTRONG: For what? 17 MS. BARHYDT: -- if we still got the final 18 proposal out to ASRAC in time. 19 MS. ARMSTRONG: For motors? 20 MS. BARHYDT: Yeah. 21 MS. ARMSTRONG: Hi, long time no see. I 22 think for motors to the extent that HVAC manufacturers

### Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Committee Meeting 08-26-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 8 1 want to continue their discussions with the motor 2 manufacturers, I think a lot of that can be done 3 offline and see if there's an official proposal you 4 want to come back with. With what the Department knows, 5 I think we are also going to take our discussions 6 offline and see if there is something we can't pull 7 together for you guys to look at to move this forward. 8 And so that's where we are because we want to move this 9 forward, and it doesn't seem -- I don't know if the 10 motor manufacturers are waiting for more information 11 from you guys, you guys are waiting for information 12 from them. We seem to be getting both? Anyhow, so -- 13 MR. AMRANE: No. No, they can get 14 information from us. 15 MS. ARMSTRONG: That's right. I have no idea 16 what's going on, honestly. I've been on maternity 17 leave for a couple days, so whatever is the case. I 18 tried to follow that you -- I'm not so sure that 19 scheduling additional meetings at this point in time 20 will be helpful until you guys have been able to have 21 those discussions. And we're, at the same time, going 22 to come up with what we think is something for you guys

### Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Committee Meeting 08-26-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 9 1 to think about as well. 2 MR. EISNER: What you're trying to come up 3 with, will that be done this week or is that -- 4 MS. ARMSTRONG: Yeah. 5 MR. EISNER: So we might be able to talk 6 about that before the end of business on Wednesday? 7 MS. ARMSTRONG: Yeah. 8 MR. EISNER: I also got the impression from 9 the e-mails that the motor manufacturers don't think 10 that the scaling approach is going to work. 11 MS. ARMSTRONG: I actually got the opposite 12 impression. 13 MR. RIVEST: Define "work." 14 MS. ARMSTRONG: It works for a majority of -- 15 that's the issue we're going to come deal with, I think 16 the Department's going to take on, is specifying -- 17 especially for the cases where a certain type of motor 18 is used in a base model and then a different type of 19 motor is used in the higher static, higher pressure 20 designs. That is the real fundamental issue as I've 21 been able to follow the conversations over e-mail. So 22 I think the scaling works great. If you are able to

### Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Committee Meeting 08-26-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 10 1 have covered motors and you have tables, then the 2 scaling may also work great for other types of motors. 3 The issue is really when you start changing types 4 within a specific base model. And that's an issue the 5 department is going to see if they can come up with a 6 solution for consideration. 7 MR. EISNER: Any questions, comments? 8 MR. SACHS: This is Harvey Sachs, ACEEE. 9 Ashley, it seems to me that there are two separable 10 issues. One of them is the higher capacity motor for 11 higher ESP. And I certainly have felt comfortable with 12 the proposals in that area. 13 The other, and I'm not sure if I'm hearing 14 this correctly or not, is the possibility, particularly 15 in smaller sizes where there are direct drive blowers, 16 of having within the same basic model group both, for 17 example, PSC motor and an ECM motor. Now, is that also 18 under consideration for inclusion in the same basic 19 model group? 20 MS. ARMSTRONG: I don't think there's a 21 solution per se, but that is current practice, as I 22 understand it.

### Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Committee Meeting 08-26-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 11 1 MR. SACHS: This is Harvey again. So both of 2 these changes in motors are on the table now? 3 MS. ARMSTRONG: I don't know what you mean by 4 "changes." 5 MR. RIVEST: Harvey, Mike Rivest. So 6 initially, this conversation was about having a higher 7 horsepower motor of a same type. And in, I guess, a 8 couple meetings back, some of the HVAC manufacturers 9 mentioned that in smaller capacity units where you're 10 straddling, you know, even the definition of "motor" 11 and "small motor," although this is all three-phase, 12 you could have different technologies being used: 13 ECMs, you could have PSCs, you could have air-overs. 14 And currently, I don't know, I think that all three of 15 those could be grouped together or are being grouped 16 together. 17 MR. SACHS: I understand they're being 18 grouped together -- 19 MR. RIVEST: For certification purposes. 20 MR. SACHS: -- in industry practices for 21 certification. My question really is whether DOE feels 22 this is a good idea to accept.

### Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Committee Meeting 08-26-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 12 1 MS. ARMSTRONG: I think that's where we are, 2 right? We don't know yet. 3 MR. RIVEST: You don't know? 4 MS. ARMSTRONG: Well, okay, so the answer's 5 probably going to be no, DOE. But I think that's what 6 we're going to talk about. I mean, the idea that you 7 could have an ECM as your base model and that's the one 8 that your ratings are based off and then switch it out 9 to a PSE or an air-over for the higher static designs 10 is a practice that the Department is not comfortable 11 with, so that is something the Department is dealing 12 with. 13 MR. RIVEST: Thank you. 14 MR. WHITWELL: Ashley, Bob Whitwell. I know 15 we're getting into maybe some detail that we want to 16 hold for later, but I think there are some cases where 17 the ECM motor efficiency or let's say a 56 frame 18 induction motor efficiency that's used for a higher 19 static application, may have a higher efficiency than 20 the ECM motor. 21 MS. ARMSTRONG: Right. 22 MR. WHITWELL: And in that case, I think it

### Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Committee Meeting 08-26-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 13 1 should be accepted. 2 MR. RIVEST: No problem. 3 MS. ARMSTRONG: Right. So, I mean, I think 4 that's where we're struggling and it's the details, 5 right? It's how do we articulate the details in a 6 manner that we could put something for you guys to 7 consider, for us to consider that's mutually trying to 8 get to the same goals for both. Because I think we all 9 agree with the general premise, there's no issue when 10 it's the same type. It's with these cross-states. And 11 there's no issue when you have a type of motor in the 12 base that may be an air-over and you switch to 13 something that's like an ECM. It's more of when you 14 have an ECM and you don't maintain either an equal 15 efficiency or the ECM design throughout. It's when you 16 go to something that's a less- efficient, non-base 17 motor and you're asking the Department to exclude those 18 from verification testing. That is the real issue. 19 MR. WHITWELL: Okay, when you refer to air20 over motor, what specifically -- because I think that 21 for most of us on the HVAC side the applications are 22 almost all air-over. There's air over the motors.

### Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Committee Meeting 08-26-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 14 1 MR. RIVEST: Mike Rivest. It's whatever NEMA 2 defines as air-over and, therefore, has no obligation 3 to even rate the motors. That's where the problem 4 comes in because we couldn't even apply a scaling if 5 there's no rating. So air-over, if you mean that as a 6 descriptor, yes, but if you mean it as a product 7 definition per NEMA, then that gets -- 8 MR. WHITWELL: Okay. That was my question. 9 So air-over you're considering to be a specific class 10 of motors. 11 MR. RIVEST: Specific, yes. 12 MR. WHITWELL: Okay. 13 MR. EISNER: Anybody else? Any questions on 14 motors? What about on boilers? Everybody agree with 15 Laura's summary? 16 MR. SACHS: This is Harvey. And I wonder if 17 it would be appropriate to ask Cleaver Brooks to give 18 us a short summary of its position on no verification 19 testing. 20 MR. MOLVIE: This is Pete Molvie with Cleaver 21 Brooks. Basically, it's our view that the boilers we 22 manufacture don't have any variability in them after

### Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Committee Meeting 08-26-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 15 1 the design has been set. We fully test them when we 2 develop them. We know what the efficiencies. They're 3 fabricated metal components that I have yet to hear an 4 explanation of what characteristic varies that would 5 warrant ongoing verification testing. That's basically 6 our position in a nutshell. 7 MR. EISNER: Other comments? Any reactions? 8 MR. SACHS: Again, this is Harvey with a 9 question for Peter Molvie. Are you confident in the 10 integrity of your competitors? 11 MR. MOLVIE: I think for the most part the 12 answer to that would be yes. I don't know that anybody 13 could guarantee 100 percent that every player in the 14 marketplace is going to be aboveboard, but I have a 15 hard time accepting the principle that the entire 16 industry's going to be held hostage and incur costs for 17 ongoing verification testing because of one or two bad 18 players. I would like to see some other alternative 19 than ongoing verification testings and the costs that 20 are incurred with that when there's no demonstrated 21 need other than someone being dishonest. 22 MR. AMRANE: This is Karim Amrane with AHRI.

### Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Committee Meeting 08-26-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 16 1 I guess we're going to hear more from Frank when he's 2 here tomorrow, but in our certification program, we do 3 have failures every year, so it happens. So I think 4 he'll give more details tomorrow. 5 MR. HALLEY: Geoff Halley with ABMA. I'll 6 support pretty well what Pete says and also I've been 7 in other manufacturers' facilities and seen nothing 8 that would make me change my point of view from what 9 Pete has said. There are a couple of boiler companies 10 that may be a little bit suspect, but they're not in 11 this marketplace. They're in the industrial 12 marketplace. And, you know, if you're wrong in that 13 marketplace, you just don't sell anything. 14 MR. EISNER: Any other reactions? 15 Okay. Do we have other unopened issues? 16 MS. BARHYDT: So one other issue, I received 17 a couple of e-mails this weekend from commercial 18 refrigeration manufacturers expressing concern as to 19 whether or not verification testing was within the 20 original scope of this working group. I brought a copy 21 of the scope that was approved by ASRAC and the final 22 bullet point on it reads, "Verification, DOE

### Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Committee Meeting 08-26-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 17 1 verification, voluntary industry programs." And so 2 reading between the lines, and you all tell me if I'm 3 wrong, I think the concern is that the way it is framed 4 here it is either verification by DOE or it is a 5 voluntary program as opposed to a mandatory 6 verification. 7 MR. BAUMAN: Jeff Bauman from National 8 Refrigeration. Good morning, Laura. 9 I would say we had some conference call 10 meetings with AHRI, commercial refrigeration 11 manufacturers, and we've already coordinated one with 12 NAFEM, a National Association of Food Equipment 13 Manufacturers. I think the comments, I'm not familiar 14 with the specific e-mails that you received, but I know 15 in both of those meetings where we tried to draw people 16 out to actually start talking at those meetings so 17 we're not all hit with additional comments when the 18 NOPR goes out and people have been sitting either 19 listening or, you know, now's the time to participate, 20 not wait. 21 There were concerns from a number of 22 companies about any additional costs for a manufacturer

### Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Committee Meeting 08-26-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 18 1 for a required verification where they'd have to go out 2 and basically pay a group to do either a witness test 3 or an in-person test. I think the group that has been 4 here, we're kind of, I'll say, I don't want to speak 5 for everybody, but, you know, we're kind of okay and on 6 board with that. And as Harvey said, you know, that 7 may be needed to make sure that the people that may not 8 be aboveboard are -- everybody's working from an equal 9 playing field. 10 Having said that, you know, the requests, 11 I'll say, we got from some of the people on the phones 12 and such were, you know, what's DOE going to say about 13 that. Because my guess is we're going to be -- a number 14 of manufacturers made comment on that loudly, which is 15 their right and everything. And that's why we said 16 we'd also bring it up here so we have a chance, DOE has 17 a chance to respond to that and we can, you know, put 18 those issues out on the table now rather than waiting 19 for later. 20 It's basically that in initial requirements 21 there was nothing about manufacturer burden of costs. 22 And in the initial studies, the impression is when

### Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Committee Meeting 08-26-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 19 1 there was the impact analysis and such an industry that 2 manufacturer having the burden of verification was not 3 part of that study. So those were the concerns that 4 were raised. I looked back myself and I didn't see 5 anything, but I don't know those as well as you folks 6 do. 7 And Mary and Charlie, if you have any other, 8 you know, input on that, obviously, for the feedback 9 that you took. 10 MR. HON: This is Charlie Hon. One 11 consideration is that there are companies who do not 12 presently have NRCanada listings or Energy Star listing 13 products and, as such, they are not at this time doing 14 any verification testing whatsoever. And there's the 15 possibility those of us who had that testing ongoing 16 can merge it into existing testing and thereby defray 17 some of the cost of it. 18 MS. DANE: This is Mary from Traulsen. I 19 think in the letter that I sent you it kind of outlined 20 some of what we have in place already and it's very 21 important to us to make sure that those considerations 22 are included in the negotiations because, as my letter

### Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Committee Meeting 08-26-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 20 1 stated, we understand that Energy Star is voluntary, 2 but that should not exclude client data test programs 3 and that which we have our data supervised by. 4 Our smaller manufacturers, as Charlie said, 5 who don't have the labs are also concerned because to 6 get into a lab right now, they're all booked. And so 7 they would have trouble meeting deadlines, and I'm sure 8 we'll get to that this morning, also. But I think my 9 e-mail covered a number of topics, that being one of 10 them, that we should take into consideration that the 11 industry didn't think that they were talking about a 12 manufacturer- funded program. 13 MS. BARHYDT: Okay. So just to make sure 14 that everybody's on the same page, when you all said 15 previously that you thought that this wasn't what was 16 initially discussed, I thought you all meant within the 17 context of this working group. And it sounds like what 18 you're talking about is the original standard setting 19 rulemaking that did the cost-benefit analysis did not 20 include those costs? What is "initial"? Because you 21 all keep saying this isn't what we initially discussed, 22 and I'm trying to figure out what are we talking about.

### Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Committee Meeting 08-26-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 21 1 MR. BAUMAN: This is Jeff Bauman from 2 National, just real quick. I think one of the things 3 to keep in mind, Laura, is these -- I think most of 4 this discussion didn't come out of the people in this 5 room, I'll say, so we're kind of -- I'm trying to 6 understand that, also. But we're also trying to support 7 our industry and that's a concern from some people in 8 the industry so that we're, you know, properly 9 representing other interests that may not be in this 10 room. Because I think we all have products, as Charlie 11 said, that are Energy Star, NRCan. 12 But trying to understand, going back, like I 13 said, if you look back in some of the -- obviously 14 there are test standards that have already been 15 released. You know, the requirements that are under 16 EPACT and under the other regulations that are already 17 out there, there's not a verification program that's 18 been discussed during those things. And I think 19 they're -- when we talk about the original, basically 20 regulations that are already out there that are not 21 part of this discussion. You know, here we're talking 22 about certification and, you know, parts of that, but,

### Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Committee Meeting 08-26-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 22 1 again, that's what they're referring back to, I think, 2 are the previous or additional regulations that are 3 already out there. 4 MS. BARHYDT: Okay. 5 MS. DANE: This is Mary from Traulsen. And I 6 was going to just say -- and I think because the amount 7 of testing that you want to verify is unknown right 8 now, I think that that's raising a lot of fear, too, 9 because we're talking about an imaginary number that no 10 one can grasp. And if we had that, that might be, you 11 know, something that we could take back, but we don't 12 have that either. 13 MS. BARHYDT: So, basically what you're 14 hearing is that there is a great deal of concern about 15 the added expense because DOE has not historically 16 required participation in a verification program. And 17 admittedly, that is what we're discussing here and it 18 would be a new requirement. There's no question that 19 it is something new and additional that we're talking 20 about. And the primary concern is not necessarily with 21 the concept of there being verification testing. It's 22 a concern about the additional cost that would be

### Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Committee Meeting 08-26-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 23 1 imposed as a result of that kind of a program. 2 MR. BAUMAN: This is Jeff Bauman from 3 National. I'd say, yes, the cost is number one. But 4 I'll say, too, you know, there are people that are 5 questioning about whether there should be any burden on 6 manufacturers. Obviously, manufacturing have been doing 7 their own testing. There's cost there to run the lab 8 or whatever. So I think there's -- it goes down to that 9 basic level of zero option, whatever you want to call 10 it, that people -- again, people that are not 11 necessarily around the table here, but have been 12 raised. And, I mean, I think we think it's fair to 13 discuss that during here, so, you know, DOE has a 14 properly appropriate chance to respond to that as part 15 of this and we're not hit by something later, 16 hopefully. 17 MS. DANE: This is Mary again. And one thing 18 I think might be helpful to take back is that one time 19 you said that DOE envisioned a manufacturer-based 20 program. And as long as that's an option and we keep 21 discussing that, I think that that will be very 22 helpful.

### Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Committee Meeting 08-26-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 24 1 MR. AMRANE: This is Karim Amrane with AHRI. 2 I guess maybe for the sake of everybody else maybe it 3 would be good for DOE to explain, first, whether the 4 DOE -- how do we feel that it has the authority to 5 establish a verification program paid by the 6 participants, of course. So I think it would be 7 important to know, I mean, what are the legal bases for 8 establishing such a program, and then maybe we can work 9 into the details. 10 MS. BARHYDT: Karim, the one day I did not 11 bring my copy of EPCA with me. 12 So generically, yes, we do believe that we 13 have authority to set up this program, and I will bring 14 EPCA with me after the lunch break. 15 MR. SACHS: This is Harvey. And I'm a little 16 bit concerned by premise that there are costs the 17 manufacturer should not have to bear, that there are an 18 awful lot of regulations and call it protection from 19 lawyers that are part of any manufacturing firm, such 20 as UL certification of electrical safety. And the 21 consumer pays for that indirectly through the charges 22 from those test labs for that certification of safety.

### Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Committee Meeting 08-26-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 25 1 It is, in my opinion, similarly a legal obligation for 2 the manufacturer to assure that a product sold in 3 commerce meets the minimum standard, and that's a cost 4 of the product. 5 At the same time -- to be borne by the 6 manufacturer. At the same time, I think there's a 7 public obligation to assure that DOE's program does not 8 go beyond that which is required to assure that 9 products sold in commerce meet the standard. Anything 10 beyond that is differentiated and people can play in 11 those games, Energy Star, for example, if they want to. 12 So the question to me is not whether manufacturers 13 should pay the cost, but how to design programs for 14 product classes that impose the minimum burden to 15 assure that level playing field for all manufacturers 16 and all customers. 17 MR. EISNER: Other comments? 18 MR. TRITSIS: Bill Tritsis, AHRI. Harvey, I 19 guess in your premise what we are arguing here is that 20 the industry already has a program in place where the 21 industry spends over $8 million in doing just what DOE 22 tries to do with its venture into uncharted territory

### Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Committee Meeting 08-26-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 26 1 for DOE. So all we're arguing here is don't destroy 2 what already is in place. Since a great deal of money 3 is already spent, okay, just look and adopt the best 4 principles that the industry has established. Okay? 5 There is plenty of money being spent by the industry 6 right now, just don't destroy it. 7 MR. SACHS: This is Harvey again. I very 8 much appreciate what you're saying, Bill, but I think 9 we're talking about two divergent objectives that I am 10 not asking, nor would I support, DOE's destroying or 11 affecting the value-added programs that AHRI offers its 12 members. I am suggesting that DOE's interest is 13 assuring that everything in commerce meets the minimum 14 standard, and it's not clear to me that there's only 15 one route to assure that. Fair enough? 16 I'm sorry; I haven't been persuaded 17 otherwise. I have enormous regard for voluntary 18 industry programs. ACEEE strongly supports these as an 19 option. 20 MR. AMRANE: This is Karim with AHRI. But at 21 the same time, Harvey, I think for AHRI, we're not 22 going to be accepting something that will water down

### Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Committee Meeting 08-26-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 27 1 what industry has already today. So regardless of how 2 we do it, I think it has to be comparable to what 3 industry is doing today. Otherwise, we're be watering 4 down a program that has been ongoing for many, many 5 years which has proven to be very effective. 6 MS. DANE: This is Mary from Traulsen. I 7 don't want to take anything away from AHRI's program 8 either. I know in the CRE industry we're not big 9 players with AHRI. And I don't believe everybody 10 should be forced by Cadillac if we can only afford a 11 Yugo. 12 Now, having said that, I understand that it 13 should be comparable, but I don't believe 20 percent of 14 verification testing would keep the smaller 15 manufacturers in business very long. We use client 16 data test programs for our voluntary programs. You 17 know, what I meant to say in the letter that I sent you 18 was that that should be considered just as effective as 19 AHRI's program. And I was looking for equal time 20 during the discussion to be able to present my points 21 and how that using those programs, or ETL satellite or 22 whatever, whatever it's called, that there is

### Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Committee Meeting 08-26-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 28 1 impartiality in using those, which was one of the 2 things I keep hearing mentioned is we got to make sure 3 that data is not affected by the manufacturer. And so 4 it's important that, we only have one choice right now, 5 the industry doesn't take part. So we have to have a 6 backup for those that can't afford to belong to AHRI or 7 to use their program. 8 MR. AMRANE: Mary, this is Karim with AHRI. 9 You're mischaracterizing the AHRI program for CRE 10 products. We are not testing 20 percent. In fact, 11 what you have come up with in your document is really 12 taken out of the AHRI program. So, I mean, this is not 13 what we're doing for CRE products, okay? Yes, for the 14 products we do use 20 percent of the basic model 15 groups, but not for CRE products, so don't 16 mischaracterize. 17 MS. DANE: I don't mean to mischaracterize, 18 but I will state that everything that's been presented 19 and brought up on the screen that we've talked about 20 has had the number 20 percent in it, and it hasn't gone 21 down by each group. So until I see a real number that 22 we've agreed upon, I'm sticking with 20 percent as

### Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Committee Meeting 08-26-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 29 1 presented by HVAC and the other groups. 2 MR. HON: This is Charlie Hon. There's also 3 the discussion of a basic model group has to be 4 involved because 20 percent of basic model groups is 5 what is presently in some of the AHRI programs; that 6 under the DOE's definition of a basic model is 7 certainly different than AHRI's, which is more specific 8 and there are more base models under DOE's standards. 9 So, therefore, those numbers would be vastly different, 10 but we really don't have foothold what that is. 11 MS. BARHYDT: So I think at the last meeting 12 we had discussed having AHRI present information about 13 their program. So if everybody's amenable, I suggest 14 we do that now since we've sort of transitions to the 15 AHRI program. 16 MS. DANE: Well, in that will we be able to 17 present ours, have one -- either one of the labs speak 18 up as to theirs, too? And will they be given labs? 19 MS. BARHYDT: Sure. 20 MS. DANE: Okay, thank you. 21 MS. BARHYDT: Got a thumb drive. 22 MR. TRITSIS: All right. I guess the burden

### Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Committee Meeting 08-26-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 30 1 is on me, not Karim. I think many of you are familiar 2 with some of the provisions that we already discussed 3 within this group. But, you know, primarily for Mary's 4 information, and I agree with your opinion about Yugos 5 and Cadillacs, but AHRI has 39 certification programs, 6 many of what we are discussing here today are part of 7 AHRI's certification programs. And I have listed them 8 here on your slide, on this slide right here, 9 commercial ACs and HVs and so on and so forth. So in 10 terms of participants, over 400 participants, many of 11 them international, more than 2,500 tests, over $8 12 million worth of testing. 13 And we talked about accreditations as well. 14 There are differences between the ISO 17065, that 15 certification, but such as AHRI are accredited to and, 16 of course, many of the laboratories, if they are to 17 conduct independent testing. And then ISO 17025 that 18 pertains particularly to laboratory test facilities 19 setups, qualification of technicians, the calibration 20 of equipment, and so on. So what I want to bring up 21 next are the important provisions that every credible 22 certification program has to have in place.

### Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Committee Meeting 08-26-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 31 1 One is independent testing, and we'll touch 2 with each one of them that are presented to you now 3 individually in subsequent slides. 4 Second, it's what we call a "certify all 5 rule," where whole products within the certification 6 program must be certified. That means not all products 7 within the model line are serious. We're talking all 8 products that fall within the scope of that program. 9 The definition of "basic model groups," it's 10 a fundamental definition that groups products in 11 families of products. It's a concept that has worked 12 for a long time. This is what we urge DOE to adopt 13 because it makes sense. It simply makes sense to 14 reduce the number of tests and, at the same time, cover 15 a lot of products into a product family where if one 16 fails, all of the products in that product family get 17 re-rated. All of them. 18 Then the random selection process, we'll talk 19 about it a little bit later. 20 Penalty, penalty provisions, either that is 21 penalty test or monetary penalties. 22 And, of course, revising the rates of

### Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Committee Meeting 08-26-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 32 1 products that have failed testing, challenge testing, 2 the ability of manufacturer to test a competitor's 3 product, either that competitor belongs into the 4 certification program or not. And, of course, a strong 5 qualification process that we know. Whether the 6 participant who is coming into the program has the 7 capability of accurately testing their product. Let's 8 look at independent testing. 9 Well, I think we all understand that, you 10 know, what we're talking about, independent testing, in 11 essence we're talking about testing products 12 continuously at an ISO 17025 laboratory. And we're not 13 talking about testing once every year or supervised 14 testing or unsupervised testing. We're talking about 15 continuous testing year after year after year at the 16 17025 accredited laboratory. It avoids conflict of 17 interest. Conflict of interest in our mind is you're 18 having a different entity reviewing the result and pass 19 or fail of the test report. 20 Brian, you want to wait -- 21 MR. FERRIOL: Sorry, Bill, Brian Ferriol with 22 UL. You said "supervised" and then you said

### Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Committee Meeting 08-26-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 33 1 "unsupervised." Do you mean unsupervised? 2 MR. TRITSIS: Well -- 3 MR. FERRIOL: Or both? 4 MR. TRITSIS: Well, what we know on some of 5 the satellite programs and that we've heard from many 6 participants around the table is that there is 7 unsupervised testing once the laboratory has reached 8 some sort of a level. This is not what AHRI is doing. 9 In every AHRI program there is supervised testing. 10 MS. ARMSTRONG: But what does that mean? 11 MR. TRITSIS: Supervised testing? 12 MS. ARMSTRONG: Yeah. What kind of 13 supervision does AHRI provide? 14 MR. TRITSIS: We will have our expert being 15 there witnessing the test sample setup and making sure 16 that their instrumentation is calibrated; making sure 17 that the product performs. That's what it is. 18 Now, to do that we're talking about this part 19 of if a manufacturer for some programs, for some 20 commercial products there is what we call witness 21 testing, right, and that's where the supervised testing 22 is taking place. So if, for example, commercial boilers

### Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Committee Meeting 08-26-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 34 1 is one of the programs where our agent is going to that 2 manufacturer's facility, a facility that has been 3 preapproved by AHRI, okay? 4 MS. ARMSTRONG: Right. 5 MR. TRITSIS: A facility that has been 6 preapproved by AHRI, so our agent goes -- 7 MS. ARMSTRONG: By your "agent," do you mean 8 someone employed by AHRI or someone employed by the 9 party lab or both? 10 MR. TRITSIS: By the party lab. 11 MS. ARMSTRONG: Okay. And then by supervised 12 -- I mean, obviously I don't think you're supervising 13 either your third-party labs or your manufacturer 14 witness labs that are being used and approved. So how 15 many do you supervise? How many tests do you supervise 16 a year? 17 MR. TRITSIS: For commercial products we test 18 over 500 products. For -- 19 MS. ARMSTRONG: No, no, no, not how many you 20 test. How many do you actually supervise the lab at 21 conducting? 22 MR. TRITSIS: Each one of them.

### Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Committee Meeting 08-26-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 35 1 MS. ARMSTRONG: So you have someone from AHRI 2 onsite -- 3 MR. TRITSIS: No, no, no -- hold on a second. 4 Not the AHRI. We're talking about our agent. AHRI 5 subcontracts, okay, to the independent laboratories, 6 like the 17025 and so on. 7 MS. ARMSTRONG: Right, so then it's just the 8 third-party running the lab at their facility. There's 9 no supervision of them. Right? 10 MR. WHITWELL: No, actually there are some 11 products that are run in the manufacturer's lab -- 12 MS. ARMSTRONG: I get that part. 13 MR. WHITWELL: -- with supervision. 14 MS. ARMSTRONG: So that makes sense to me. 15 MR. WHITWELL: -- with a supervision of the 16 third-party lab. 17 MS. ARMSTRONG: So that makes sense to me. I 18 mean, that's the same thing as like Mary was describing 19 with a manufacturer witness program run by, like, you 20 are all ITS. But I was trying to understand the 21 difference for products that are just run through a 22 third-party lab chain. I mean, there is no additional

### Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Committee Meeting 08-26-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 36 1 supervision. I mean, supervision doesn't come into 2 that. 3 MR. WHITWELL: Well, there are -- 4 MS. ARMSTRONG: I'm just trying to 5 understand. I'm not saying right, wrong, or otherwise. 6 I'm just trying to understand -- 7 MR. TRITSIS: No, you're correct in your 8 understanding. However, there are differences as to 9 what we provide as AHRI as guidelines to our agent, 10 that is, you know, the third-party laboratory. Okay? 11 MS. ARMSTRONG: Right, right, right. I'm 12 just -- 13 MR. TRITSIS: So that's where the difference 14 is. 15 MS. MEYERS: So this is Karen with Rheem. 16 And let me see if I can maybe reword this, and correct 17 me if I'm wrong, Bill, but there is a contract between 18 AHRI and the lab. And the lab has to demonstrate in 19 this contract that they have certain qualifications, 20 that they understand the AHRI operations manual, that 21 their equipment is calibrated. So to be able to run an 22 AHRI test, the lab has to demonstrate certain

### Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Committee Meeting 08-26-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 37 1 capabilities and they also have certain requirements 2 that they have to meet as put forth by AHRI, which is - 3 - I mean, it includes everything from I think the 4 training of the lab personnel and all of this. There's 5 a whole lab certification program that they have to go 6 through. 7 So it's not just contracting to a third-party 8 lab, but it's, you know, it's like the lab has to meet 9 the AHRI specifications if they want to perform the 10 AHRI certification test. So it's a little bit 11 different. 12 MS. ARMSTRONG: So, Karen, that's great, 13 thanks. That was very helpful. 14 One of the things you said, though, was that, 15 you know, what AHRI does is -- it has to do with, like, 16 lab technician training and calibration and 17 understanding the manuals. I mean, how is that 18 essentially different from getting ISO 17025 19 accreditation and different than what, you know, an 20 accreditation body would be doing. 21 MS. MEYERS: So this is Karen with Rheem 22 again. Let me see if I can maybe put it in a different

### Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Committee Meeting 08-26-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 38 1 context. 2 We as a manufacturer would not let just any 3 contractor install our commercial equipment. They 4 would have to be Rheem-trained. So it's kind of the 5 same thing. The lab has to be AHRI-trained, so even 6 though a contractor may have, you know, his licenses, 7 he still may not be authorized to install Rheem 8 equipment. 9 It's kind of the same thing with the lab. 10 You know, the guy may have the same certifications, but 11 if he has not been through the Rheem training program, 12 he's not authorized to install our equipment. So I 13 think it's kind of the same thing with the lab. It 14 still has to be a lab that's been authorized by AHRI to 15 meet certain criteria. 16 MS. ARMSTRONG: Right, and I guess what I'm 17 trying to say is what is that? What does that mean? 18 Because from the Department's perspective -- and, Bill, 19 from what you're explaining to us -- what you guys want 20 us to do is essentially use a program like AHRI's. And 21 I think that the Department is open to that, obviously. 22 That's why we're having these discussions. And we see

### Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Committee Meeting 08-26-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 39 1 the value that they provide, definitely. 2 What we can't do is say you can only use 3 AHRI. So we need to understand what this means. So if 4 a third- party lab wanted to run their own, if a 5 manufacturer wanted to run their own, if another, you 6 know, certification-type organization wanted to run one 7 as well, there would be some type of equivalent 8 requirement. 9 So what I'm trying to ask you is what does 10 that mean? You know, what does it mean to be an AHRI 11 lab? Who goes and does these audits? Is auditing done 12 once a year? How do you get on the list? What do you 13 look for that's above what someone from an 14 accreditation body would look for? 15 MR. TRITSIS: Sure, I think at our last 16 meeting I did send you some samples of it. 17 MS. ARMSTRONG: Yep. 18 MR. TRITSIS: Okay? So, you know, there is - 19 - you know about some of the procedures in those 20 documents that I sent you that describe precisely what 21 the lab should do in order to have accurate testing. 22 And this is information that can come only from the

### Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Committee Meeting 08-26-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 40 1 input of the industry. Okay? That's what you're 2 looking for; this is what we are doing. That's why we 3 see the fundamental difference between a laboratory 4 doing testing, not that we object necessarily on their 5 own, but, you know, what the industry can provide as 6 value added to a verification program that is a 7 voluntary industry verification program. 8 MS. MEYERS: And maybe if I could just say 9 one more thing. This is Karen with Rheem again. 10 AHRI may not witness all the tests, but they 11 supervise the work that the lab does. So sometimes 12 it's more supervised than witnessed, so they are 13 supervising the practices that the lab does to conduct 14 the AHRI test. Sometimes, you know, it's also a witness 15 to -- 16 MS. ARMSTRONG: Does that just mean review 17 results? 18 MS. MEYERS: And lab practices and technician 19 training and -- 20 MS. ARMSTRONG: I'm not -- I'm going to play 21 devil's advocate for a minute. Don't take the premise 22 that I disagree with anything necessarily that's going

### Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Committee Meeting 08-26-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 41 1 on or the Department does, but I'm just trying to -- so 2 one of the things that -- I'm going to take this back 3 to when we first started discussions over AEDMs and 4 when DOE was going to verify. And it wasn't enough to 5 have someone from DOE on-site at the lab, even though 6 you're running a DOE test procedure in a third-party 7 lab, that's ISO 17025 accredited, you know. You 8 couldn't tell just by those results and that data that 9 you were getting and by limited pictures that the test 10 was conducted correctly; that the setup was done 11 correctly unless the manufacturer is there. 12 Why is that not the case here? Why are you 13 getting valid tests, but we couldn't, with the same 14 thing? 15 MR. TRITSIS: Maybe you used untrained lab 16 technicians that we as AHRI do not qualify. 17 MS. ARMSTRONG: We use the same labs as you. 18 I guess, why are we doing the double -- I mean, I'm not 19 trying to say that there's difference, but what I am 20 trying to say is that, you know, why -- your arguments 21 earlier for why the Department should accept, you know, 22 or have manufacturers on-site or this, that, and the

### Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Committee Meeting 08-26-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 42 1 other. By reviewing the results you just couldn't tell 2 if the test was done properly, so how can you? 3 MR. TRITSIS: Again, I think what you have 4 learned through your few years of testing that we could 5 have told you from the beginning is there is definitely 6 a level of expertise that is required, like Karen is 7 alluding to, that a manufacturer had the industry's 8 training, the personnel, the technicians for a long 9 time before they are capable of doing an accurate test; 10 to, you know, abide with rules and regulations that we 11 have in place. I have a general operations manual in 12 the back that is 50 pages long, okay, that has been 13 written through 50 years of experience, something that, 14 you know, perhaps you need to look into, and some of 15 the other documents that we have. 16 And that's what we are trying to convey to 17 you. There is value into what the industry's providing 18 in training those technicians to perform an accurate 19 test year after year after year. Okay? And who knows 20 how to test and rate the products best? 21 MS. DANE: This is May from Traulsen. I have 22 a question since I'm just learning about the AHRI

### Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Committee Meeting 08-26-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 43 1 program. So you'd have your operator's manual that 2 instructs how to perform the testing to the standards 3 that exist for those products. Is that covered and 4 audited by Guide 65 or is that done outside of the 5 premises? Because ISO Guide 65 and one of the labs 6 will have to help me go through it, but that requires 7 them to perform the testing a certain way. Does it 8 allow for the additional information that's given to 9 them to present these tests? 10 MR. TRITSIS: Mary, yeah, ISO 65 is a quality 11

-- 12 MS. DANE: I understand what ISO 65 is. 13 MR. TRITSIS: -- control program. It doesn't 14 -- okay. Yeah, just to let you know that ISO 65 15 doesn't know particularly how -- it doesn't tell you 16 how to test your product. 17 MS. DANE: It doesn't, but it directs you to 18 the standard. And you provide a document that 19 supplements the standard. Is that what you're saying? 20 MR. TRITSIS: Right. Right. 21 MS. DANE: So that would change the scope, 22 would it not? I mean, I'm looking to you all and ETL,

### Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Committee Meeting 08-26-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 44 1 they're sitting in the room. Do you have to get in -- 2 or CSA's here, too. I mean, do you have to go back and 3 get that put in your scope? 4 MR. FERRIOL: Well, my understanding, Brian 5 from UL, is that as a test lab we need to be accredited 6 to 17025, not Guide 65. That's my understanding. 7 MR. TRITSIS: But if you are going to be a 8 certification body like you are, for Energy Star, you 9 have to have your 17065 accreditation. Otherwise, you 10 wouldn't be an Energy Star -- 11 MR. FERRIOL: I'm not an expert on -- Brian 12 again. 13 MS. DANE: I was going to say actually I 14 spoke to your guy that handles your programs and 17065 15 is not in effect yet. It will be in 2014. There's a 16 three-year implementation period. You're all operating 17 under Guide 65 at this time and that is the one that 18 covers certification bodies. So they are held to an 19 international standard that they're audited by many 20 different organizations all the time, so AHRI is just 21 one of many organizations who oversees AHRI's 22 accreditation process to make sure theirs -- I mean, I

### Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Committee Meeting 08-26-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 45 1 don't mean to pick a fight with AHRI. But I just hear 2 them constantly saying that us using our labs directly 3 is not good enough, but them being the middleman 4 between our labs is A-okay, let's go, so -- 5 MR. TRITSIS: Well, I think maybe you're 6 missing a lot of the conversation that is being, you 7 know, discussed right now. And part of it is you as a 8 manufacturer know best how to rate your products, okay? 9 There is value to that in saying -- in transferring 10 this information and know-how to those technicians 11 you're doing pretty much something currently, okay, 12 every time your independent party comes to test your 13 product. This is the value-added that we're talking 14 about. This is something that we say to you that 15 exists in our documents. Okay? I'm not necessarily 16 they exist in some, you know of the other facilities 17 doing independent testing. 18 MR. STEPHENS: Phillip Stephens, HTP. Bill, 19 does AHRI currently offer training in these product 20 categories to conduct the performance test? 21 MR. TRITSIS: Training to the technicians? 22 Absolutely we do.

### Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Committee Meeting 08-26-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 46 1 MR. STEPHENS: No, do you currently offer 2 training to manufacturers? Because I've requested it 3 and I was told it wasn't available. 4 MR. TRITSIS: You as a manufacturer should 5 know how to test your product. 6 MR. STEPHENS: Thank you. Thank you. 7 MR. TRITSIS: So we go based on that premise. 8 MR. STEPHENS: So do the other test labs 9 offer training for technicians conducting the test 10 standards? 11 MR. FERRIOL: This is Brian with UL. 12 Absolutely from a safety standpoint and from an energy 13 efficiency standpoint UL has for years offered advisory 14 services or training for engineers as far as knowledge 15 on UL standards, even technicians on how to conduct 16 tests. We actually, as previously mentioned, have a 17 data acceptance program that originated in the safety 18 arena, but it continues in the area of energy 19 efficiency where we audit manufacturers' labs. So in 20 order to do that we feel it's prudent to not just 21 audit, but if somebody needs help getting to the point 22 of being ready for an audit, that we will provide

### Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Committee Meeting 08-26-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 47 1 services to get them ready. 2 MR. STEPHENS: Thank you. My point was that 3 when I arrived at HTP, I approached AHRI to sharpen the 4 saw, to make sure I knew the employees had the skill 5 sets that I wanted them to have. AHRI specifically 6 didn't offer the training. We did have to go to one of 7 the certification bodies to do that. I fully support 8 AHRI offering that training and I asked them to several 9 times. 10 MS. BARHYDT: So, Bill, I'm a lawyer and I 11 decide to open up an HVAC manufacturing facility and I 12 go hire a lot of really knowledgeable engineers who 13 actually know how to build an air-conditioner because I 14 don't have a clue. And these are really good 15 engineers, they really understand how to build a good 16 air-conditioner, and they build some really good air17 conditioners. How do they know how to test? I mean, 18 there is a test procedure and a method, but that is not 19 necessarily the same thing as knowing how to build one. 20 They're different things. And so I don't understand 21 your reaction was you're the manufacturer, you should 22 know how to test it. Well, they're in a test lab. I

### Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Committee Meeting 08-26-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 48 1 would hope they know how to test it. 2 Honestly, I don't understand why it is just 3 inherent and you are a manufacturer, therefore, you 4 know how to test. 5 MR. HURST: I wouldn't say it's inherent, but 6 we do have test facilities and people that are 7 professionals. It's just like saying you're an HVAC 8 manufacturer, how could you have people that know 9 finance? I mean, we have financial people, we have 10 accountants, we have attorneys, we have professional 11 test people as well. 12 So I don't know if it's inherent, Laura, but 13 I can speak on behalf of my company, we have a 14 professional organization that knows how to test our 15 equipment. 16 MS. MEYERS: And we also have to certify 17 those products. So to certify those products you have 18 to know how to test them. So we have to -- so I think 19 that's a little bit different. It's like, you know, 20 you're an attorney for DOE. Does that mean you're 21 equally proficient in divorce law? You know, just 22 because you are -- you know, you still have to have

### Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Committee Meeting 08-26-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 49 1 specific skill sets. If you can test refrigerators at 2 UL, it may not mean that that technician is equally 3 adept at testing HVAC products. It's a skill set and 4 that's what AHRI does, is they make -- they supervise 5 the lab to ensure that they are running the test 6 correctly. They're complicated. 7 MS. BARHYDT: Okay, so that last statement 8 you said AHRI supervises the lab to make sure they test 9 correctly, but my understanding previously was that 10 AHRI was not supervising the labs, they were 11 supervising when testing was done at manufacturer labs. 12 MS. MEYERS: Supervising and witnessing are 13 different. 14 MS. BARHYDT: Okay. Help me out here. 15 MS. ARMSTRONG: Yeah, can somebody just 16 explain when is AHRI there? What qualifications does 17 that person or people have that supervise a test? What 18 test do they supervise: third-party labs or 19 manufacturer labs or -- I mean, that's what we're 20 trying to understand. How many of those tests -- what 21 is it that you do that those adjectives describe? 22 MR. TRITSIS: I'll start. Okay, first of

### Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Committee Meeting 08-26-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 50 1 all, as you can imagine, with 38, running 38 or 39 2 programs, there are engineers that we have in place 3 qualified to assess laboratories, okay, and supervise 4 the contracts that we have with the independent 5 laboratories. There is some testing that is done in6 house at the independent laboratory and some testing 7 that is done, what we call witness testing, at the 8 manufacturer's facility. Okay? 9 Wherever this testing is done, if it is in10 house testing, what takes place before any technician 11 starts doing the testing on a product of a manufacturer 12 that participates in our program, we make sure that 13 this is a knowledgeable technician that has been 14 trained, that understands the standard, that understand 15 AHRI certification program, that has experience to test 16 the manufacturer's product. Okay? 17 They have to follow rules, guidelines, and 18 expertise that is conveyed to them during the years of 19 testing from the manufacturer to -- and that's what we 20 assess and we supervise. And that's what we're -- 21 that's when we're saying we have testing done in an 22 independent laboratory through, you know, qualified

### Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Committee Meeting 08-26-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 51 1 technicians. Okay? So that's in-house testing. 2 We're talking about them next witness testing 3 at a manufacturer's facility that has been preapproved 4 by AHRI. That means the independent laboratory that we 5 have hired has sent a qualified technician to make sure 6 that that facility can indeed test the product 7 accurately. 8 MR. STARR: This is Louis Starr. I have a 9 question for you. 10 So by "qualified technician," if you're 11 testing a specific piece of manufacture, like equipment 12 from Trane, does that mean that that technician has 13 been trained on the procedures that are specific to 14 Trane equipment? Is that what you mean by 15 qualifications whereas the ISO 16025 wouldn't 16 necessarily encompass that? Is that what you're 17 referring to? 18 MR. TRITSIS: Well, yeah, 17065, as we said, 19 is a quality -- 20 MR. STARR: Sorry, 17025. 21 MR. TRITSIS: Right, 17025. 17025, again, is 22 a quality system the laboratories are required to have

### Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Committee Meeting 08-26-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 52 1 in place. That does not convey knowledge of any, 2 participating manufacture's product. And that 3 knowledge is conveyed from the manufacturer through 4 AHRI to that technician. 5 MR. STARR: So the answer's yes; is that 6 right? 7 MR. TRITSIS: Yes. 8 MR. MYERS: This is Frank Myers, PVI. 9 MS. HOOTMAN: It's not -- wait a minute. 10 MR. STARR: That's what I -- 11 MS. HOOTMAN: No, the technician is not 12 specifically trained on Trane or -- 13 MR. STARR: Well, not specifically Trane, but 14

-- 15 MS. HOOTMAN: -- on Carrier or whatever. 16 MR. STARR: It's familiar with the product, 17 though, right? I other words -- 18 MS. HOOTMAN: Yes, familiar with -- 19 MR. STARR: -- he's got -- 20 MS. HOOTMAN: It's familiar with the 21 certification program and the test standard. 22 MR. STARR: Okay. But not particular -- like

### Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Committee Meeting 08-26-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 53 1 I know Trane equipment works differently. 2 MS. HOOTMAN: Now, over time, I'm going to 3 say that they're kind of experienced technicians and 4 they've been there a while, so over time they've seen a 5 lot of our stuff or they're seen a lot of Carrier's or 6 whatever, so they start to gain that. 7 MR. STARR: Right. 8 MS. HOOTMAN: But it's more that they're 9 trained in the standard -- 10 MR. STARR: Okay. 11 MS. HOOTMAN: -- in the test standard, and 12 how the certification program needs to run, so there's 13 not only the general OM, but each certification program 14 has an OM. 15 MR. STARR: But in some ways, wouldn't you 16 feel more comfortable with AHRI because the experience 17 that they bring? I mean, there is a lot of different 18 in -- 19 MS. HOOTMAN: No question the experience is 20 there. No question the experience is there because 21 they're -- yeah. Those technicians are experienced. 22 MR. STARR: Also, isn't there -- a

### Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Committee Meeting 08-26-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 54 1 difference, too, is that Trane could be there to 2 witness the test? 3 MS. HOOTMAN: We can be there 100 percent to 4 witness. We have that choice. 5 MR. STARR: So in other words, if there are 6 problems they can be providing input, like, hey, we're 7 getting some weird numbers here, what may be going on. 8 Whereas if you just have nobody -- 9 MS. HOOTMAN: Or you didn't install that 10 correctly or whatever. Yeah, we can -- 11 MR. STARR: So there's a level of supervision 12 that's not normally there. 13 MS. HOOTMAN: Right. We don't actually 14 physically see the test, we witness the setup. 15 MR. STARR: Okay. 16 MS. HOOTMAN: So we can see the whole setup 17 you didn't -- you know, you didn't put the whatever on 18 correctly or whatever. So we can see all the setup, we 19 can see the instrumentation and all that kind of stuff, 20 but we don't physically see the test. 21 MR. TRITSIS: There is a set of guidelines 22 that --

### Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Committee Meeting 08-26-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 55 1 MR. STARR: So this is kind of like the test 2 procedures set up that we were talking about many weeks 3 ago except that actually instead of trying to write out 4 through a written communication, you can actually be 5 there with your eyes and see it, which is probably a 6 better -- in other words, if the test setup is wrong, 7 you can write up a test that describes how to set that 8 setup, but it's never going to be as good as actually 9 being there at the factory seeing it. 10 MS. HOOTMAN: That's right. 11 MR. STARR: So that's probably why the 12 manufacturers are very comfortable with AHRI's setup 13 because it allows a higher involvement that's not 14 allowed necessarily at 17025 is what I'm thinking the 15 difference is. 16 MR. MYERS: This is Frank Myers with PVI 17 Industries. Bill, I get the sense you have not 18 completed your presentation. 19 MR. TRITSIS: Right. 20 MR. MYERS: And perhaps some of these 21 questions would be answered by the conclusion of your 22 presentation, so I think it would be good to have you

### Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Committee Meeting 08-26-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 56 1 go on through that. Thank you. 2 MR. TRITSIS: Thank you, Frank. Laura. All 3 right, the next provision, we talked about before, is 4 the certifying all products or the performance of all 5 products in the scope of the certification program. 6 This is what we call the Certify All Rule. Again, 7 we're not talking about all products in the model line 8 or series. We're talking about all products within the 9 scope of a certification program. Definitely that 10 avoids market confusion and it is a universal rule for 11 all AHRI certification programs. 12 MR. STEPHENS: Phillip Stephens, HTP. Could 13 you expound on that? 14 MR. TRITSIS: Which part eliminates market 15 confusion? I'll give you an example. If you, if a 16 manufacturer, any participating in the program has some 17 product certified and some others within the scope of 18 the program not certified, then, you know, what you 19 often see is confusion in the literature of how the 20 certification mark is presented; B, you could be 21 supplying for a job a certified product whose 22 performance has been independently verified and, at the

### Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Committee Meeting 08-26-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 57 1 same time, supplying a lower bid for a product that you 2 know performs better -- less; less not better -- that 3 is not certified. So that's where we see the value of 4 that rule. 5 MS. BARHYDT: So my understanding is that 6 where you say "scope of a program," you are not 7 referring to all products of the same type. You are 8 referring to only the scope of the program. Because my 9 understanding is that AHRI's program does not cover all 10 of the regulated products within a DOE product type. 11 Is that correct? 12 MR. TRITSIS: For some, yes. 13 MS. BARHYDT: And I don't know how you would 14 have heard of this, but are you aware of any confusion 15 resulting from I am a participant in the AHRI boiler 16 program and they believe that boilers of all sizes are 17 covered by that program when really the program only 18 goes up to a certain size. Does that make sense? 19 MR. TRITSIS: Well, the program scope could 20 go, yes, could have limits, but -- 21 MS. BARHYDT: But it doesn't. My 22 understanding is the current AHRI program doesn't go

### Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Committee Meeting 08-26-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 58 1 above a certain size. 2 MR. TRITSIS: Right. 3 MS. BARHYDT: And presumably, there are 4 manufacturers who go beyond that size. 5 MR. TRITSIS: Yeah. 6 MS. BARHYDT: So -- 7 MR. TRITSIS: So that is not so-called -- 8 it's not certified equipment if it is above that what 9 is in the scope of the AHRI certification program. So 10 those manufacturers who have distinct models that are 11 above the scope, okay, that's outside of the scope of 12 certified product. But, you know, you cannot have a 13 product that spans -- or there are some provisions that 14 describe what happens if a product goes beyond the 15 certified scope. 16 MS. HOOTMAN: So I'll give you an example: 17 water source heat pumps. Water source heat 18 pumps, the certification for AHRI is much more broader 19 than what is covered by the regs. And so, yeah, 20 there's occasionally -- you know, there are people that 21 come in and have questions about, you know, why doesn't 22 this fall under this regulation or something like that?

### Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Committee Meeting 08-26-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 59 1 It's just pretty much an easy question to, you know, 2 answer. But, yeah, there is that dissimilarity. And 3 so, you know, we have to say it's an AHRI 4 certification, but it's not necessarily covered by -- 5 MS. BARHYDT: DOE regs. 6 MS. HOOTMAN: Yeah, DOE regulations. 7 MR. TRITSIS: All right. Here is what we 8 hope is some information on why we think the basic 9 model group is concept that DOE would find acceptable. 10 Again, it is grouping products in that same product 11 family. And I believe you have seen our definitions, 12 right? 13 (Yeses.) 14 MR. TRITSIS: Okay. So, you know, how 15 products are grouped were any one of these 16 characteristics that I'm showing on this slide. So, 17 you know, they can be grouped either based on capacity, 18 airflow, components, two or three of these descriptors 19 together as well for some products. But the 20 fundamental point here is that grouping the products 21 into basic model groups allows for a reduced number of 22 tests, making the program affordable. Okay?

### Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Committee Meeting 08-26-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 60 1 In Mary's case for commercial refrigerators, 2 for example, there are six product families. With a 20 3 percent basic model group selection criteria, assuming 4 she has products in each one of these six product 5 categories, she will be doing two tests, which we 6 think, you know, it is affordable. 7 The caveat, again, manufacturers decide how 8 to group their products into the basic model groups. 9 But there are some programs that have, like the units 10 that are large, for example, that have specific 11 descriptors of how to group products in the same 12 product family, such as compressor, such as airflow, 13 and capacity. So that's why we think this concept 14 makes sense. That's why we think it makes a 15 verification program affordable to manufacturers. 16 Now, at the same time, if a product that is 17 selected for a verification testing within that basic 18 model group fails testing, all of the products within 19 that basic model group, that product family gets re20 rated. Okay? That's why we think that this is a 21 concept that has lasted through time. It has made 22 programs strong and has allowed the programs to be

### Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Committee Meeting 08-26-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 61 1 affordable to those participating in it. 2 And, of course, for verification testing what 3 we currently do is 20 to 30 percent of the basic model 4 groups on an annual basis. Again and again, annual. 5 MR. HALLEY: Geoff Halley with ABM. I'm 6 looking at that basic model group definition and I'm 7 wondering how it would fit into the sort of product 8 lines of the manufacturers that we represent. 9 Certainly let's take an example. A boiler manufacturer 10 may have a line of fire tube boilers that goes from 100 11 horsepower to 1,000 horsepower. If you want to convert 12 it to input, say around 4 million BTUs to 40 million 13 BTUs. They've got similar performance characteristics 14 in many cases. Obviously the capacity varies all over 15 the place. The nominal airflow varies all over the 16 place unless you're talking about an airflow per 17 capacity type thing. And the components are obviously 18 somewhat similar, they've got similar functions, but 19 they're going to get bigger as the boilers get bigger. 20 How do you handle a thing like that? 21 MR. WHITWELL: This is Bob Whitwell from 22 Carrier. I think what Bill's put here are some

### Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Committee Meeting 08-26-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 62 1 examples of some parameters -- 2 MR. HALLEY: Right. 3 MR. WHITWELL: -- that might be part of a 4 basic model group definition and not necessarily meant 5 to say that these are what would define a basic model 6 group. So for your products, for example, it could be 7 something different, right? 8 MR. TRITSIS: Right. 9 MR. WHITWELL: It could be what would make 10 sense for your product. 11 MR. HALLEY: Yeah, looking at that it looks 12 as though every model would have a different basic 13 model. 14 MR. WHITWELL: Yeah, so those are probably 15 not the right ones for your product. 16 MR. HALLEY: It's not a good -- right. 17 MR. TRITSIS: Right, that's definitely not 18 for the boilers. This is an example, okay, of 19 characteristics that could be used to group products. 20 MR. SACHS: This is Harvey and I just want to 21 see if I'm completely understanding what Bob has said. 22 And that would seem to me that for these large boilers

### Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Committee Meeting 08-26-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 63 1 the basic model group might be everything with the same 2 ratio of heat transfer area to BTU capacity. 3 MR. WHITWELL: It could be. It could be. I 4 mean, I'm not familiar with those products, but that 5 could be the right -- 6 MR. TRITSIS: Or model line. The model line. 7 MS. BARHYDT: So I have the -- I actually 8 have the definition that Karim sent out previously. It 9 says, "Each participant's listing shall be grouped by a 10 basic model group. A basic model group is a regular 11 range of sizes of a similar type, design, and 12 construction, and having a common designation as 13 catalogued." 14 UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: (Off microphone.) 15 MS. BARHYDT: Commercial boilers. 16 MR. STEPHENS: Phillip Stephens, HTP. One 17 more question on the minimum percent testing for 18 verification. As you've already mentioned that AHRI is 19 a Cadillac program. If the Department of Energy 20 accepts 20 percent verification do you see AHRI going 21 up to 30 to 40 percent of basic models? 22 MR. TRITSIS: I didn't say that it was a

### Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Committee Meeting 08-26-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 64 1 Cadillac program. Mary said that. 2 It's a program that is affordable. That's 3 why you participate. That makes you advertise that 4 your product indeed meets your ratings rather than, you 5 know, some of your competitors that are outside of the 6 program, whose product is not verified. So, that's, 7 you know, speculatory at this point. You know, we have 8 something in place that we find it works right now. 9 The random selection process. For some 10 products, you know, we do ask for a three sample 11 minimum where we ask these three samples to be 12 presented so we can select a product for testing. We 13 can select, of course, from a distributor. It can be a 14 product built to order. And for those that are shipped 15 to the independent laboratory we ship it for testing 16 for others that are testing at the manufacturer's 17 facility. We, again, ask for the product to be 18 available for testing at the manufacturer's facility. 19 The products that are shipped to the 20 independent laboratory for testing, we have special 21 selectors that are visiting the manufacturer's facility 22 and they choose from the three sample minimum and wrap

### Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Committee Meeting 08-26-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 65 1 it and secure it and make sure that the product is 2 secured and then shipped -- before it is shipped to the 3 independent laboratory. Of course, when it's shipped 4 to the independent laboratory, it is checked to make 5 sure that the product that AHRI selected is the product 6 that we want to verify. 7 MS. BARHYDT: Bill, who are your selectors? 8 MR. TRITSIS: The selectors are a network 9 that the independent laboratory has in place that we 10 know and have basically a certain assurance that they 11 are people that, A, understand the product and usually 12 they're ex- HVAC contractors. 13 MS. BARHYDT: So are they employees of the 14 labs? 15 MR. TRITSIS: I think -- well, they are 16 employees. Some of them might be under contractual 17 obligation. 18 MS. BARHYDT: Contracts. 19 MR. TRITSIS: But, again, what matters is 20 their knowledge of the product and what to do once they 21 go there. Basically they have to understand the rules 22 of the program, wrapping it and securing it, and how to

### Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Committee Meeting 08-26-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 66 1 select. 2 MR. FERRIOL: Laura? Sorry, Bill. This is 3 Brian with UL. At UL, they are full-time employees of 4 UL, yes. 5 MS. BARHYDT: Okay. And then, from a three 6 sample minimum, when the selector goes -- I guess I'm 7 trying to figure out the relationship between the 8 three- sample minimum and the selector. If they're 9 less than three samples, then you choose a different 10 model within the same basic model group? Or what 11 happens if there's not three samples? 12 MR. TRITSIS: There have to be three samples 13 if they're -- 14 MS. BARHYDT: So then they just make more. 15 MR. TRITSIS: Right, there has to be three 16 samples -- 17 MS. BARHYDT: Jill's shaking her head no. 18 MS. HOOTMAN: No, there are times when you 19 can witness the components being put in. 20 MR. TRITSIS: Well, that's true. That's 21 true. But that's under construction. 22 MS. HOOTMAN: Right. So that's not a three

### Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Committee Meeting 08-26-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 67 1 sample. 2 MR. TRITSIS: But under the instruction of 3 AHRI. Okay? When we said the selector, you know, we 4 tell them what to do. But if we are to select a 5 natural package product, then three samples have to be 6 available. Okay? 7 MR. SACHS: Bill, this is Harvey. And 8 echoing in my cavities in my brain are Frank's many 9 comments about being a build-to-order manufacturer. So 10 he's not going to have three boxes sitting there. 11 MR. TRITSIS: No, no, no, no. For big, for 12 some of these big commercial products, obviously you 13 cannot have, you know, three humungous boilers just 14 sitting there. 15 MR. SACHS: And I would imagine the same for 16 60- ton RTUs. 17 MR. TRITSIS: Right, right. 18 MR. SACHS: So can you just digress for a 19 second to help me understand what the protocol is for 20 these situations. 21 MR. TRITSIS: Well, when you're talking about 22 some commercial products, we're talking about some of

### Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Committee Meeting 08-26-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 68 1 them are stock items, you know, you want to use a 2 packaged air-conditioner, okay, that, you know, at the 3 lower level 135,000 BTUs or less than that and less. 4 Okay. Some of these products, you know, are available 5 and stocked. And these are the ones we're talking that 6 three samples have to be available. Some others, 7 again, it's not possible or cost-effective to have 8 three samples. 9 MR. SACHS: So I'm just asking what the 10 procedure is for manufacturers of build-to-order or 11 manufacturers, say, of mixed groupings, but include at 12 the large end some stuff that's essentially built to 13 order rather than stocked. How does AHRI select the 14 samples for that? That's my question. 15 MR. MOLVIE: This is Pete Molvie with Cleaver 16 Brooks. And this really gets to the problem that our 17 company is in. We do participate in AHRI, but to a 18 very small extent. I would say that less than 5 19 percent of our products are even able to be tested to 20 that standard, so there's a huge part of our product 21 that we simply can't -- the standards that AHRI tests 22 to aren't applicable to our products even if we wanted

### Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Committee Meeting 08-26-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 69 1 to test them. So there has to be another mechanism for 2 boiler manufacturers like us to be able to meet 3 whatever requirements we decide to set up. AHRI's not 4 going to cut the mustard for us. 5 MR. AMRANE: But, Pete, you're talking about 6 test procedures currently with AHRI. You're talking 7 about a test procedure here, right, that does not apply 8 to your product, right? You're talking about test 9 procedures or you're talking about the process by we 10 select units. 11 MR. MOLVIE: I'm talking about the -- well, 12 really both, but the test procedure itself, the BTS 13 2000, it's not applicable to our products. And the 14 size range goes way too big for anything that can be 15 covered by existing laboratories. 16 MR. AMRANE: I think the test procedure is a 17 different issue and that's a DOE issue and DOE has to 18 address it. But the size issue, I think, I don't know, 19 maybe you need to, Bill, to talk a little bit about how 20 we select units or large units. 21 MR. TRITSIS: Sure. We ask for the 22 production schedule, okay, for the -- the

### Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Committee Meeting 08-26-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 70 1 manufacturer's production schedule. Don't forget we're 2 testing chillers up to, you know, 4,000 tons, okay, so 3 we ask for the production schedule, and from there we 4 see what is being built. And when that product is 5 built, we schedule the testing for large products. 6 MS. HOOTMAN: You schedule somebody to come 7 witness it being built? So selection of the components 8 as it goes in that it's independent. 9 MR. SACHS: Thank you, Bill. That's exactly 10 what I was trying to learn. 11 MR. FERRIOL: Laura, Brian with UL. I just 12 wanted to comment on a question you had earlier about 13 if a selector went there were not three samples 14 available, what would happen? The way UL handles it, 15 and I think others similarly, is we're in contact with 16 the manufacturer to make sure before we send someone 17 that they do have samples available. So we're not 18 going out there to select if they don't have the three 19 samples already. 20 MS. ARMSTRONG: So they know in advance? 21 MS. BARHYDT: So when does the manufacturer 22 know which models were selected?

### Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Committee Meeting 08-26-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 71 1 MR. TRITSIS: Thirty days in advance. 2 MS. BARHYDT: Okay, and let's say this is 3 something they make a higher volume and they have 150 4 of them. Does the selector pick from the 150 or does 5 the manufacturer get some out because it's going to be 6 a royal pain a forklift to get all these things off of 7 the top shelf of the warehouse? Does the manufacturer 8 pre- select a smaller group that then is selected from? 9 What is the selector choosing from? 10 MR. TRITSIS: If the product is stocked and 11 available, the selector is choosing three products that 12 are just over there sitting on the shelf. Now, if it's 13 at the top of the shelf, at the bottom of the shelf, 14 you know, does it really make any difference? You 15 know, we're talking about a product, you know, that is 16 sitting there on the shelf tested again and again and 17 again, year after year. 18 MR. FERRIOL: Laura, Brian from UL. Again, 19 from my experience I think it depends. It depends on - 20 - let me just say it depends. The rule says minimum of 21 three. In some cases, the selector might want the 22 manufacturer to take them where the big stockpile is,

### Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Committee Meeting 08-26-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 72 1 and be onerous about saying, you know, give me that one 2 that's on the bottom and you got to take an hour to 3 move a bunch of units around to get it. I think that's 4 up to the discretion of the selector. 5 MS. BARHYDT: Okay. 6 MR. THARP: This is Rusty. Can you hear me 7 okay? 8 UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: Yep. 9 UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: Yeah. 10 MR. THARP: And to further comment to what 11 Brian said, it does depend on the manufacturer. Some 12 manufacturers have extremely large warehouses and 13 walking around the warehouse, having the selector take 14 his time and the manufacture of employees taking their 15 time to spend the entire day walking around a warehouse 16 selecting units is very burdensome. So with the 30-day 17 notice, some manufacturers may choose to just put a 18 minimum of three in one area and that way the selector 19 and the employee can stay in that one area and not have 20 to walk around the entire warehouse. 21 What's common in my experience is they'll 22 just bring a sack, so if there's a -- and even if it's

### Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Committee Meeting 08-26-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 73 1 normally stacked six tall, the warehouse will just grab 2 the entire stack and bring it to an area. If it's 3 stacked four tall, they'll bring, you know, whatever 4 stack has at least three minimum and bring that to the 5 area and that's what the -- at least some manufacturers 6 do it that way. Other manufacturers, depending on the 7 size of the routes and what they want to do, they'll 8 just have them walk around the warehouse. 9 And I've seen it where it goes -- where some 10 inspectors want the bottom unit. Some of them just are 11 nice and say just give me the top unit. 12 End of rant. 13 MR. EISNER: This a good time for a 10-minute 14 break? 15 UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: No. 16 MR. TRITSIS: I only have a couple more 17 slides if you want to wait. 18 MR. EISNER: Oh, okay, I thought you were 19 done. 20 MR. TRITSIS: The next thing is, of course, 21 when there are test failures, there have to be 22 consequences, and that's what is described quite

### Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Committee Meeting 08-26-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 74 1 clearly in the operations manuals that I'm sure you 2 have seen. 3 The choice here is to de-rate the product, 4 obsolete the produce. And, of course, you know, all 5 the products in the basic model group and these are the 6 consequences of a test failure. Of course, there is an 7 option to test a second sample. 8 And if any given participant has found 9 himself to be in multiple test failures, and that's 10 what monitor and their provisions to and thresholds 11 where, you know, they get into what we call "probation 12 modes," "penalty mode," double selection. So there are 13 consequences as a result of failure rates, of high 14 failure rates. And, you know, high failure rates, what 15 is the threshold that we're talking about? There's a 16 table, there's a chart in the operations manual that we 17 have online. And 10 percent is the threshold that we 18 are using for some sort of action. 19 And that action, you know, includes penalty 20 tests, like double the number of annual tests, and 21 monetary penalties as well. And some other options, of 22 course, include the removal of the basic model group

### Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Committee Meeting 08-26-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 75 1 from the director. And these are some of the penalty 2 provisions that we currently have, that we, you know, 3 we feel is a strong deterrent for anyone to present 4 inaccurate ratings. 5 The next provision is the challenge test. I 6 think we've talked about it within this group. That 7 allows any participant in the program to challenge the 8 ratings of someone else within the program or outside 9 of the program. And, of course, here, too, AHRI makes 10 the decision based on test reports, whether, you know, 11 the challenge can proceed or not. So in terms of 12 payments I think, you know, depending on whether the 13 product passes or fails, is the responsibility of the 14 challenger or the challengee. 15 MR. EISNER: What percentage of your 16 manufacturers get into the penalty mode? And is it 17 public information they get into the penalty mode? 18 MR. TRITSIS: Yes, it is public information. 19 If you're following the directory, there is a listing 20 of those who have not necessarily -- we're not listing 21 them as penalty mode by whose products have been de22 rated. So then you can see if you go to the directory

### Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Committee Meeting 08-26-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 76 1 products that have been de-rated as part of our annual 2 testing. 3 MR. EISNER: But you see enough listed there, 4 you know they're in the penalty mode. 5 MR. TRITSIS: That would be a reasonable 6 assumption. 7 MR. EISNER: Do you get more challenges to 8 those who fall into the penalty mode? When other 9 manufacturers see that do they usually ask for more 10 challenges of that particular unit? 11 MR. TRITSIS: Well, at that point, you know, 12 there are stringent enough provisions within the 13 program, you know, where whoever has multiple D rates 14 or it being in penalty mode, monetary penalties, double 15 the number of tests, you know, they're already in 16 trouble. 17 MR. EISNER: What's the size of the monetary 18 penalty? 19 MR. TRITSIS: Well, you know, it could be in 20 the tens of thousands to, you know, some cases, it 21 could be 100,000. 22 MR. EISNER: Does the 100,000 depend on your

### Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Committee Meeting 08-26-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 77 1 having multiple penalties or is there some serious -- 2 they missed the mark by so much that you -- 3 MR. TRITSIS: Yeah, it's based on the 4 multiple de-rate failures. 5 MS. BARHYDT: Bill, do you have a second 6 slide on challenge tests or just the one slide on 7 challenge tests? 8 MR. TRITSIS: I think that's -- oh, here it 9 is. 10 MS. BARHYDT: Okay. 11 MR. TRITSIS: How did you know? 12 MS. BARHYDT: I was going to wait to ask a 13 question if there was more coming. 14 MR. TRITSIS: I should have forwarded the 15 slides to you anyway. But, yes, I mean, this, again, 16 describes who pays and how challenge tests are being 17 assessed where we authorize basically the laboratory 18 the reasonable grounds to doubt the ratings based on 19 the test reports that we have seen, you know. To have 20 the test move forward the laboratory goes and gets the 21 product for the test. 22 MR. EISNER: What percentage of the challenge

### Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Committee Meeting 08-26-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 78 1 test does the challenger have to pay? 2 MR. TRITSIS: The challenger pays if the 3 product passes. 4 MR. EISNER: And I'm asking what percentage - 5

- 6 MR. TRITSIS: They're paying everything. 7 They're paying -- 8 MR. EISNER: No, but in what percentage of 9 the challenges has it passed as opposed to fail? 10 MR. 11 TRITSIS: I'll give you what I have in mind. 12 Last year I think half of them passed, half of them 13 failed. 14 MR. BALLO: This is Tim with EarthJustice. 15 Is it fair to say that failure rates are higher for 16 products that are tested under the challenge testing 17 than under the normal verification testing procedure? 18 MR. TRITSIS: I'm sorry, say that again. 19 MR. BALLO: Are products more likely to fail 20 in a challenge test than in a -- 21 MR. TRITSIS: Oh, yes. Yes, yes, yes. 22 MS. BARHYDT: So just going back and slide,

### Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Committee Meeting 08-26-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 79 1 if I'm reading this right, the challenger has to get a 2 model, test it, send you the results before you decide 3 whether or not to go forward with the challenge testing 4 under AHRI's process. 5 MR. TRITSIS: Right, there has to be some 6 sort of a reason here. 7 MS. ARMSTRONG: Well, how does that happen 8 for built-to-order products? 9 MS. HOOTMAN: Expensive. 10 MR. TRITSIS: Yeah. 11 MS. ARMSTRONG: I mean, if Carrier asked you 12 for a product are you going to give it to them? 13 MS. HOOTMAN: They have ways and we have 14 ways. 15 MR. STEPHENS: Phillip Stephens. 16 MR. HUNT: Hello. This is Marshall Hunt. 17 MR. EISNER: Go ahead, Marshall. 18 MR. HUNT: Marshall Hunt, PG&E. Can you hear 19 me? 20 MR. EISNER: Yes, go ahead. 21 MR. HUNT: It says on the first bullet that 22 the participant can challenge ratings. I'm assuming

### Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Committee Meeting 08-26-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 80 1 you're saying a participant in the AHRI program. Can a 2 utility challenge the ratings, such as my own? 3 MR. TRITSIS: If you have some test reports 4 or something that you would like us to consider, AHRI 5 can challenge products of participants. So if you want 6 to submit, you know, a test report, you know, we can 7 select it as part of the annual verification test. If 8 you -- so basically there is a process for you if you 9 want to send us something. 10 MR. HUNT: So we would go directly to 11 AHRI's program manager of the section -- 12 MR. TRITSIS: Right. 13 MR. HUNT: -- and present our case to them. 14 MR. TRITSIS: Right, if you have a test 15 report, absolutely, you should do that. 16 MR. HUNT: And if we disagreed with the 17 conclusions made by AHRI is there any way else to push 18 the case forward? 19 MR. TRITSIS: There's an appeal process that, 20 again, is in our operations manual that is online and 21 describes what you can do. But, you know, are you 22 talking -- do you have a specific example or --

### Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Committee Meeting 08-26-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 81 1 MR. HUNT: No, we do not. I just want to 2 make sure that this is open to the public at some level 3 because we are -- 4 MR. TRITSIS: Yeah, I'm glad you brought it 5 up. 6 MR. HUNT: -- spending millions on products. 7 MR. TRITSIS: You know, we make it a point to 8 have all of our documents online and I would urge you 9 to just go visit the AHRI website so you will see all 10 those bullet points and discussions we're having today 11 and how we run the programs. They're all there in 12 documents that are publicly available. 13 MS. ARMSTRONG: Can I ask a question if he's 14 done? Do the challenge tests, are they part of the 15 percentage of basic model group minimums that have to 16 be met a year. 17 MR. TRITSIS: No, separate, completely 18 separate tests. 19 MS. ARMSTRONG: And so, even if that 20 20 percent has been met for the year and you've received 21 three challenge tests for a given manufacturer. They 22 are done no matter what --

### Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Committee Meeting 08-26-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 82 1 MR. TRITSIS: Absolutely. 2 MS. ARMSTRONG: -- assuming you find the 3 information credible. 4 MR. TRITSIS: Absolutely. 5 MS. ARMSTRONG: And that would be handled the 6 same if it was a third-party or the Department were to 7 ask you or whatever? 8 MR. TRITSIS: Absolutely. AHRI staff have 9 the ability to conduct what we call discretionary tests 10 that, you know, again, are over are above the 20 or 30 11 percent threshold for any reason. 12 MR. HUNT: And remember on the challenge test 13 basically the loser pays, correct? 14 MR. AMRANE: (Off microphone.) 15 MS. ARMSTRONG: We're negotiating here, 16 Karim. 17 MR. STEPHENS: Phillip Stephens, HTP. Bill, 18 is there a breakdown between the performance level 19 where you see more challenges? Is it towards the upper 20 end or towards the lower end of the efficiencies? 21 MR. TRITSIS: For some of the recent cases 22 that we had, they're towards the lower end of the

### Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Committee Meeting 08-26-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 83 1 efficiencies, towards the minimum standards. In a few 2 cases we have reported, of course, to the Department. 3 MS. BARHYDT: Sorry what was the last thing? 4 I looked at my BlackBerry. I apologize. 5 MS. ARMSTRONG: If it's below standards, they 6 report them to the Department. 7 MS. BARHYDT: Lately? 8 MR. TRITSIS: Within the next few months. 9 MS. ARMSTRONG: Timely? 10 MS. BARHYDT: Within the next few months, is 11 that what you just said? 12 MR. TRITSIS: No, when we report it to you. 13 I don't know if you recall there was a series of tests 14 that were conducted and we sent you the result, I sent 15 you the results. 16 MS. BARHYDT: For one product? 17 MR. TRITSIS: Yes, and we showed you some 18 other products that really we couldn't get a hold of. 19 MS. BARHYDT: Okay. 20 MS. ARMSTRONG: And what was the time between 21 the determination was made and when we were given 22 notice?

### Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Committee Meeting 08-26-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 84 1 MS. BARHYDT: It was relatively -- 2 MS. ARMSTRONG: Yeah, I'm only just asking. 3 MS. BARHYDT: Three months. 4 MS. ARMSTRONG: Three months? Okay. 5 MR. BARHYDT: Four months. 6 MR. TRITSIS: Three or four months ago, that 7 one I sent you, yeah. 8 MS. BARHYDT: No, this is about 3 or 4 months 9 after the test was completed. 10 MR. TRITSIS: Oh, yeah, yeah. Well, the 11 first test. The second immediately after we had, you 12 know, the conclusive evidence, you know, I think it 13 wasn't much time that I sent it to you. 14 MS. BARHYDT: Maybe it took a while for you 15 to get the results from the lab because based on the 16 date of the test it had been several months. 17 MR. TRITSIS: Could be. 18 MR. CALABRESE: This is Dave Calabrese. If I 19 could just add to that. I mean, there is a due process 20 that those that are being challenged get. So as Bill 21 has said, there is the first and the second test. They 22 can come back and say after the first challenge test,

### Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Committee Meeting 08-26-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 85 1 well, you did this wrong, you did that wrong. We then 2 do another test. So once we have a definitive answer, 3 and I'm involved in that process, you immediately get 4 it. But it's after they, the challengee, has been given 5 their rights under our procedures. After that's been 6 exhausted, then we immediately provide it to you. So 7 if it's 3 months, it was because we were going through 8 the process. So there's no delay when we have 9 definitive word and they have exhausted their rights 10 under the procedure, you have it. 11 AHRI 12 MS. BARHYDT: And that's for the challenge 13 testing? 14 MR. CALABRESE: Right. 15 MS. BARHYDT: Okay. How many challenge tests 16 have you had? 17 MR. TRITSIS: Last year? 18 MS. BARHYDT: Mm-hmm. 19 MR. TRITSIS: Well, let me think. Within the 20 last six, seven months we had I believe three or four. 21 MS. BARHYDT: And 50 percent have failed? 22 MR. TRITSIS: I think so.

### Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Committee Meeting 08-26-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 86 1 MR. AMRANE: Karim with AHRI. But not all of 2 them failed below the federal minimum. 3 MR. TRITSIS: Below the federal minimum, 4 sorry. 5 MR. AMRANE: So you have to be careful on 6 that. 7 MS. BARHYDT: Okay. 8 MR. TRITSIS: Like, you know, everything that 9 fails below federal minimum, it is sent to you, right? 10 MS. BARHYDT: At some point, yes. 11 MR. TRITSIS: Again, in due process. 12 And finally, the last slide is the 13 qualification process where we have basically to get 14 assured that the participant who enters the program 15 knows how to test the product and provide accurate 16 performance ratings. And that's the gist of it and 17 there are multiple stringency levels depending on the 18 program. Some of them test each and every model that 19 comes into the program. Some others, you know, have 20 higher threshold criteria in terms of tolerances and so 21 on. All qualification tests must pass basically before 22 any participant can actually enter the program.

### Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Committee Meeting 08-26-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 87 1 MS. BARHYDT: So a couple of questions. One 2 of the things I think you just said was that some of 3 the programs required them to test every model? Is 4 that -- 5 MR. TRITSIS: That are introduced, yeah, 6 right. 7 MS. BARHYDT: Every model or every basic 8 model or every basic model group? 9 MR. TRITSIS: A product of the basic model 10 group. 11 MS. BARHYDT: Okay, so that's the much, much 12 smaller number than every model. 13 MR. TRITSIS: Well, yes, but if you think 14 about it, you know, if that fails -- 15 MS. BARHYDT: I'm not criticizing. 16 MR. TRITSIS: Yeah, right. 17 MS. BARHYDT: I'm just making sure I 18 understand the level of testing required. 19 MR. TRITSIS: Correct. 20 MS. BARHYDT: And then for the qualification 21 tests, now, are these subject to the same sort of 22 requirements that you have for your verification tests

### Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Committee Meeting 08-26-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 88 1 or these are -- they can just be testing done by the 2 manufacturer in their own lab, no witness, no ISO, no 3 oversight? 4 MR. TRITSIS: No, testing has to be done -- 5 if they qualify to enter the program, testing has to be 6 done by a supervised -- AHRI supervised agent. 7 MS. BARHYDT: Okay, so that qualification 8 testing is all -- 9 MR. TRITSIS: Is all that's part like the 10 same -- right. 11 MS. BARHYDT: The higher level of -- 12 MR. TRITSIS: Just stringent requirements, 13 more stringent requirements. 14 MS. BARHYDT: Okay. 15 MR. TRITSIS: It could be tolerance. There's 16 a program that has 2 percent rather than 5 percent 17 tolerance for pass/failure. 18 MS. BARHYDT: Okay. 19 MR. STEPHENS: I believe it really depends 20 upon which program. 21 MR. TRITSIS: Right, right. 22 MS. BARHYDT: Do other people have questions?

### Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Committee Meeting 08-26-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 89 1 MR. SACHS: This is Harvey. And Bill and 2 Karim have brought up an important point about 3 notifying DOE if anything fails the federal minimum 4 standard. And my question is one of my lack of 5 understanding. What responsibility does DOE have for 6 the integrity of performance certifications above the 7 federal minimum? In other words, as an example, if a 8 residential air- conditioner meets SEER 13 does DOE or 9 FTC or neither or both have concerns about whether 10 something that's advertised as SEER 16 actually meets 11 16? 12 MS. BARHYDT: For consumer products that's 13 the Federal Trade Commission. Under EPCA for 14 commercial products, DOE has that authority. 15 MR. SACHS: Thank you. That's very helpful. 16 MR. EISNER: But they don't send it to you. 17 Can DOE look at your website and see that there was a 18 failure that met their standard, but didn't meet the 19 advertised standard? 20 MR. TRITSIS: Yes, there is. 21 MS. BARHYDT: We can see where the re-rates 22 are.

### Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Committee Meeting 08-26-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 90 1 MR. TRITSIS: Yeah, they can see the re2 rates. 3 MR. AMRANE: This is Karim with AHRI. With 4 respect to the discussion we are having here today, are 5 we talking just about the federal minimum standards of 6 education or are we talking about anything that 7 manufacturers will put on the DOE website? 8 MS. BARHYDT: So, I think DOE's primary 9 concern is obviously with the minimum standards, but as 10 we discussed with AEDMs, to the extent that a 11 manufacturer is using an AEDM we have a great deal of 12 concern about the validity of the ratings from an AEDM 13 in particular because those impact the minimum 14 standards as well as all of the ratings across the 15 board. 16 MR. EISNER: Any other questions for Bill? 17 All right. Thank you, Bill. 18 MS. BARHYDT: Ready for the 10-minute break 19 now? 20 MR. EISNER: Do we want break for lunch now 21 or do we have a long afternoon or do you want to go on 22 for another hour and a half or an hour before you go to

### Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Committee Meeting 08-26-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 91 1 lunch? Nobody cares? 2 UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: (Off microphone.) 3 MR. EISNER: Okay. Hearing no objections, 4 we'll take 10 minutes now. 5 (Whereupon, there was a brief recess.) 6 MR. EISNER: Let's get started again. Would 7 anybody from the laboratories like to make any 8 presentations or have a discussion about what they do? 9 MR. FERRIOL: This is Brian with UL. I don't 10 have anything at this point in time, but we may have 11 something tomorrow. Could I reserve the right to bring 12 something tomorrow, perhaps? 13 MR. EISNER: Sure. Anybody else? 14 (No response.) 15 MR. EISNER: All right. Do we want to go 16 back to verification testing? 17 MS. BARHYDT: So given some of the concerns 18 that have been raised by the commercial refrigeration 19 folks, certainly Pete has expressed the concern. Let's 20 just take a step backwards and talk about whether or 21 not there is actual agreement that we should have DOE 22 required verification. Obviously the DOE is supportive

### Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Committee Meeting 08-26-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 92 1 of the idea, but where is everyone else? 2 UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: I don't know. 3 MR. MYERS: This is Frank Myers with PVI. I 4 think if there's going to be public listing on the DOE 5 website of all of this information that's being 6 requested, I don't think there is a question that 7 that's a requirement. 8 I think there ought to be some validation. I 9 certainly don't agree that whole -- everyone in that 10 program needs to reach the same level of stringency 11 that the AHRI program does. I think the AHRI program 12 is a wonderful program and I would characterize it as a 13 Cadillac. There are other paths that you could go down 14 to get what I would think would be a reasonable level 15 of certainty that the numbers that are in the public 16 listing by DOE have some validation and maintain some 17 validations. 18 It could be anywhere form Pete Molvie's idea 19 that you validate it when you get your design certified 20 and for certain class of equipment, perhaps that 21 adequate. And then you maintain, you know, you 22 maintain that as long as you maintain the safety

### Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Committee Meeting 08-26-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 93 1 certification that was done along with the efficiency 2 validation that controls the design, and you don't have 3 to test unless there is a design change that had to go 4 back through that process. 5 I'm not saying that I agree with that. I'm 6 saying it could range from that stepping up a notch. 7 It could be what California Energy Commission does. 8 They have a program where they have several paths to 9 get into it, but they allow the manufacturer to conduct 10 their testing if you validated your capability to them. 11 An officer of the company or someone authorized by the 12 company to take responsibility signs a pledge that 13 you're going to keep it right. And then, they do 14 annual -- they have a budget, not a huge budget, but 15 they have a budget where they go out and collect 16 equipment and conduct tests. 17 And I know with a former company, we had a 18 product that was found to be not compliant. It turned 19 out that they were correct. Fortunately we hadn't sold 20 very many of them. We discontinued that product and 21 designed a whole new -- we were buying it from a third22 party. And we thought it was fine, but it was not and

### Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Committee Meeting 08-26-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 94 1 we replaced it. So the system, at least to that 2 degree, I can testify it does work to get bad product 3 out of the marketplace. 4 Stepping up another notch, you can do what 5 the Gas Appliance Manufacturers Association did prior 6 to their merger with AHRI, which had many of the 7 attributes that were described by AHRI, but not all. 8 All the way up to what I'm characterizing the Cadillac 9 program with AHRI. And perhaps, it's not the same for 10 all products. Perhaps it's not the same for build-to11 order or engineered-to-order, which would take care of 12 Pete and a number of other people that have concerns 13 about it. Maybe it's different by size. Maybe it's 14 different by product type. But my personal belief is 15 that there should be some form, as I've described in 16 that range of options, of validation. 17 MR. AMRANE: Karim Amrane, AHRI. I think 18 AHRI, which of course supports -- you know, a voluntary 19 program, and again, I mean, I don't think AHRI is 20 certainly pushing for the AHRI program to be the 21 program but we would like to have something close to 22 it. We don't want a DOE program that will water down

### Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Committee Meeting 08-26-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 95 1 what industry has been doing for more than 50 years. 2 And again, we have been referring to this 3 Cadillac program. This Cadillac program was set up by 4 the manufacturers. It was not random -- it was the 5 manufacturers themselves developing the rules and that 6 was done with 50 years of experience. We are here 7 today because of that experience. So -- and it's 8 coming from the manufacturers. 9 So, for us, we would support a voluntary 10 program, a DOE program, as long as it is not too far 11 from what currently exists and has been in existence 12 for more than 50 years. 13 MS. BARHYDT: So Karim, just to clarify 14 because you said voluntary several times and what we've 15 been talking about is a mandatory program. So, I know 16 your program is voluntary, but I just want to make sure 17 terminology-wise we're all on the same page. 18 MR. AMRANE: We are on the same page. 19 MS. BARHYDT: Okay. 20 MR. EISNER: Well, keeping this focused 21 initially on whether verification testing is needed, 22 what does your data show about verification testing?

### Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Committee Meeting 08-26-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 96 1 In other words, what number of pieces of 2 equipment are failing despite having gone through the 3 earlier processes? 4 MR. AMRANE: Well, I don't have those 5 statistics. This is Karim with AHRI. But maybe Bill 6 can, you know, Neil is asking, you know, what's the 7 percentage of failures we have overall every year. I 8 think we have -- I don't know. I mean -- 9 MR. EISNER: Failures in verification -- 10 MR. AMRANE: In verification testing. 11 MR. TRITSIS: Sorry I thought I had a loud 12 enough voice. 13 Overall I think it's two percent of the 2,500 14 products that we test. 15 MR. MOLVIE: This is Pete Molvie with Cleaver 16 Brooks. I think more important than the quantity of 17 failures in verification testing, it's what kind of 18 failures are occurring and in what kind of products? 19 I still go back to the fact that the products 20 we make are manufactured with precision, there's no 21 variability that effects the efficiency that would 22 warrant ongoing verification testing.

### Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Committee Meeting 08-26-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 97 1 MR. SACHS: This is Harvey. And Laura, I 2 could be wrong, but this question of verification 3 testing might be better approached as we've done some 4 of the other issues by looking at it by product class 5 by product class. I'm not convinced that the same show 6 fits all the feet in the room. 7 MS. BARHYDT: Product class or product type? 8 Or both? 9 MR. SACHS: Yes. 10 MS. BARHYDT: Okay. 11 MR. SACHS: I obviously meant at the highest 12 level that we start with something like CRE. Certainly 13 when we get to boilers, there are going to be 14 differences by capacity. But thinking about it in 15 terms of the needs of each segment of the general 16 industry that we're considering here. 17 MR. SHEBIK: Ron Shebik with Hussmann. 18 Laura, your question was is verification testing 19 necessary. 20 So, again, I'm just going to speak on behalf 21 of what we know from the CRE group, the members that we 22 spoke to. There's going to be several. More than two

### Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Committee Meeting 08-26-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 98 1 or three that are going to be very vocal that a 2 verification program was never part of the game. When 3 DOE originally approached manufacturers and discussed 4 this, the idea and the cost of the burden -- the burden 5 of cost of a verification program was never out there. 6 And, many of the smaller manufacturers feel that this 7 is actually geared more towards the larger 8 manufacturers who can absorb this cost, where the 9 smaller manufacturer is going to have to -- it could be 10 a struggle for them. 11 I guess the question I have though, and 12 again, I'm going to make the assumption that you see no 13 verification as an extreme. What do you plan to gain 14 from verification that you wouldn't get from challenge 15 testing from manufacturers? From competitors? 16 Wouldn't you find most of the problems through 17 competitors challenging? 18 MS. BARHYDT: Not necessarily. So, to give 19 you some examples -- we've obviously been testing on 20 the residential side longer than we've been testing on 21 the commercial side, so I have several years more data 22 on that. There are manufacturers who I think thought

### Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Committee Meeting 08-26-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 99 1 their products were compliant. I don't think there was 2 anything willful that they were intentionally trying to 3 skirt the regulations. And I don't think any of their 4 competitors really thought that they were out there 5 trying to make non-compliant products either. I don't 6 think there would have necessarily been challenge tests 7 conducted raised from one competitor against another 8 competitor. "You know, I think they're making this 9 non- compliant model." 10 But the reality is when we've randomly picked 11 units and tested them, products failed. Issues can 12 arise over time in the manufacturing process, there can 13 be shift in the manufacturing process over time. There 14 can be -- one thing we've seen is component suppliers 15 swap something out and it wasn't -- the design of the 16 supplied component changed even though they didn't 17 change the model number and the manufacturer had no 18 idea, but the end result was that the final product 19 wasn't performing the way the manufacturer had 20 originally designed it. And I don't think there's any 21 way to catch that kind of thing relying solely on 22 challenge testing.

### Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Committee Meeting 08-26-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 100 1 MR. HALLEY: This is Geoff Halley with ABMA. 2 I've listened to all of this this morning and it seems 3 to me that AHRI have done a pretty good job in 4 directing the smaller segment of the boiler 5 marketplace, and probably it was only course of action 6 from the DOE. But there's a whole different set of 7 rules really that apply to the boilers that I 8 represent. And I think it's really got to be handled 9 by a different way of doing things on the part of DOE 10 and this manufacturing segment. 11 I've never heard of a challenge in our 12 segment of the industry. Nobody's ever challenged the 13 efficiency to my knowledge. Nobody has purchased a 14 product from somebody else, built by a competitive 15 manufacturer and tested it in their labs to my 16 knowledge. 17 So it doesn't exist in our segment of the 18 marketplace. And, you know, they've never had a 19 problem. They've tended to work from -- as Frank 20 pointed out, the California Energy Commission. A lot of 21 them are familiar with that already and to my knowledge 22 it's not been a problem with the manufacturers. They

### Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Committee Meeting 08-26-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 101 1 go along with it. 2 So, I would like to see something different 3 for our segment of the marketplace in terms of how this 4 whole thing is handled. 5 MR. HURST: This is John Hurst with Lennox. 6 I'm assuming, but I don't know this Bill, but I would 7 imagine that challenge testing would come typically in 8 high volume products where you're not trying to do a 9 one-off gotcha. At least on the residential side. I 10 don't know if that's' correct. 11 The other challenge testing would probably 12 come around some sort of market claim. We have the 13 highest efficiency whatever. But for the stuff in14 between, I don't know how much challenge testing you 15 would get. What I did hear though, was there would be 16 an opportunity for the DOE to submit a challenge based 17 on some rational thought process. 18 I'd like to understand where you guys are in 19 terms of that meets your needs, doesn't meet your needs 20 concerning the comments we have before the break. 21 MS. BARHYDT: So DOE would-if we had concerns 22 about a product, DOE would just test it ourselves.

### Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Committee Meeting 08-26-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 102 1 MR. MOLVIE: This is Pete Molvie with Cleaver 2 Brooks. Relative to challenge testing, I would support 3 100 percent challenge testing as opposed to ongoing 4 verification testing when the costs for that testing, 5 if you pass is a burden for someone else. 6 When we develop our products, we know with 7 certainty what the efficiency is and we publish the 8 efficiency with money back guarantees and we have no 9 doubt whatsoever that we meet the efficiencies that we 10 put into our sales documents. So, challenge away, but 11 I just don't see an ongoing cost to reinvent the wheel 12 on a product that doesn't vary. 13 MR. STEPHENS: Phillip Stephens, HTP. Would 14 it be within the Department's purview to require a 15 mandatory verification if a manufacturer were to fail a 16 challenge test or one of your random audits yourself? 17 MS. BARHYDT: So you're asking whether we 18 could not institute verification across the board, but 19 only in cases where somebody failed a test. Okay, so 20 under that scenario, Manufacturer X is plugging along, 21 making lots of products or making just a few products 22 and nobody happens to challenge test them and they keep

### Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Committee Meeting 08-26-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 103 1 on making their products and making their products and 2 nobody challenges them. At what point are they then 3 ever even at risk of being subjected to verification 4 testing? 5 MR. STEPHENS: They're at risk every day from 6 their competition, from Earth Justice, from ACEEE for 7 their customers for not providing the benefits that 8 they're claiming they do. 9 MS. MEYERS: Perhaps an idea to consider -- 10 this is Karen with Rheem, is that if you don't 11 participate in some type of verification testing then 12 you don't go on the DOE website, because those are 13 federally covered products that have not been verified. 14 MR. SACHS: Karen, this Harvey. I find that 15 attractive for production products. For stuff that's 16 not one-offs. I'm still troubled by the regime we've 17 imposed for engineered or on-off products and I still 18 think that we can solve that one fairly quickly if we 19 focused on it for a few minutes and then moved -- 20 whether that's CRE or large boilers, and then moved 21 onto the -- what I would call the mass production 22 products.

### Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Committee Meeting 08-26-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 104 1 MS. BARHYDT: Do you have something to 2 propose? 3 MR. SACHS: I'm trying to prose the path and 4 I'm trying to listen for suggestions and we have 5 Cleaver Brooks at one extreme saying that for their 6 engineered products, which are invariant, which is 7 amazing, but I assume on a one-sided basis they don't 8 flunk and which are sold to very discriminating 9 customers. They're making the case that verification 10 is simply nothing but a burden. And Geoff next to me 11 is saying, "Gee, maybe it's something we ought to do 12 for stuff that's produced in slightly larger numbers," 13 say 2.5 million BTU boilers but nor for stuff bigger. 14 And I think we're going to be deciding how to slice the 15 pie and it's going to have some arbitrariness and it 16 may turn out and need a revision in four or five years. 17 But it seems to me that disposing of the 18 areas that are causing us the most heartburn, but might 19 have the simplest solutions would be a path. 20 MR. HON: This is Charlie Hon. Just to ask 21 the question. These large boilers, they are always 22 commissioned aren't they?

### Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Committee Meeting 08-26-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 105 1 MR. HALLEY: They are commissioned, yes. 2 MR. HON: By regulatory body, right? 3 MR. HALLEY: Well they are -- typically a 4 startup technician will do it on behalf of the company. 5 MR. HON: Are there also regulatory bodies 6 that govern the installation of these products? 7 MR. HALLEY: Well, yeah, there's the National 8 Board of Boiler Inspectors who have got a code, yes. 9 MR. HON: So we have regulatory people 10 involved in commissioning. Would they see if the unit 11 did not meet the efficiency proposed? 12 MR. HALLEY: Yeah, I was going to sort of 13 follow you. But to my way of thinking, if you get a 14 challenge, it's going to be from a customer. Not from 15 anybody else. And if you've got to sort of verify that 16 challenge or check it out if you like, then probably 17 the only way to do it is to do that unit, that 18 customer's unit and if you're going to do it properly 19 you're going to have to clean the system before you -- 20 because you don't know how long the thing's been in 21 existence and how it's been treated. So it's going to 22 have to be cleaned before you start. And you know, I

### Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Committee Meeting 08-26-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 106 1 would suspect that in all cases that with the 2 manufacturers that we represent, you would find that it 3 complies with the criteria. 4 MR. STARR: This is Louis Starr with NEEA. 5 One thing I'm wondering about, it sounds like the 6 testing of the boilers -- it seems, obviously air 7 conditioning manufacturers are paying for verification 8 and there are certain costs associated with that. It 9 sounds like with the boilers, there's more of a burden 10 associated with testing than per se any of the other 11 manufacturers of equipment or it hasn't been done 12 before, therefore we don't want to do it. 13 I'm trying to understand what -- is it really 14 the cost of the testing or is it more the principle? 15 MR. EISNER: There's a question about the 16 need for the testing also. Isn't there? That's what I 17 thought I've been hearing. 18 MR. STARR: Well, you know, one thing. 19 They've provided an example where, you know, the 20 customer's interested in a certain efficiency of the 21 boiler. A lot of times you will get an incentive from 22 a utility company. So the customer doesn't necessarily

### Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Committee Meeting 08-26-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 107 1 -- isn't interested in the efficiency, they're 2 interested in the rebate. And so, there's actually 3 some other people in that picture that would not 4 necessarily, you know, would be concerned about the 5 efficiency as well. 6 MR. HALLEY: When I worked for a 7 manufacturer, I remember one instance where somebody 8 was claiming that we did not meet the efficiency level. 9 The unit was in a building in Cincinnati, Ohio and we 10 were requested to test in the summer. Now a heating 11 boiler -- it is very hard to get a sufficient load on a 12 heating boiler in Cincinnati in the summer. And we did 13 eventually manage to test it in situ, in the summer, in 14 Cincinnati by working through the night and we met the 15 efficiency standards we claimed. 16 MR. AMRANE: This is Karim Amrane with AHRI. 17 We do have a program for boilers, so it's being done 18 today. Maybe not for the large boilers, that Pete is 19 talking about, but there is a program and as I said, 20 tomorrow when Frank is going to be here maybe he will 21 give us more information about the failure rates. But 22 we do, but we do encounter failure rates every year.

### Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Committee Meeting 08-26-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 108 1 MR. STARR: Are they similar to other 2 equipment? 3 MR. AMRANE: It might be similar or it might 4 be lower, I don't know. Frank will probably give us 5 more data on it tomorrow. 6 MR. EISNER: Any other comments? Thoughts? 7 I'm hearing a lot of ideas about how it could be 8 handled. You could give incentives for voluntary 9 programs, putting information online. You could have 10 severe penalties if your product is ever tested and it 11 doesn't pass a verification test, including being 12 subject to a larger amount of verification testing and 13 you might be under a rule that applied to everybody. 14 These are working in different directions. 15 They're providing incentives to join a program or 16 they're providing incentives to make sure your product 17 does meet the standards, because if you flunk a test 18 that DOE preforms in one way or another, whether it's 19 pursuant to a challenge or using your own money, there 20 could be some severe penalties. All of these have 21 their pros and their cons. There are ways you could 22 mesh them together in different ways. You could put

### Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Committee Meeting 08-26-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 109 1 them all into one program essentially. 2 MR. STARR: This is Louis Starr with NEEA. 3 Another thought, I mean, if AHRI has a 4 testing program, you know, maybe the break point could 5 be where they don't have a testing program or something 6 along those lines and then you would have the benefit 7 that you wouldn't necessarily be undermining an 8 existing testing procedure. 9 MR. EISNER: How do you think the DOE rule -- 10 setting a mandatory level of verification testing would 11 undermine what is a voluntary program right now? 12 MR. STARR: Well, actually, maybe Karim can 13 answer that. 14 MR. AMRANE: I think the danger here is that 15 DOE would come up with a program that will have much 16 less stringent requirements that what AHRI has today. 17 And all of a sudden now, on the market you will have a 18 program by DOE, a federal government-run program that 19 will have basically much less requirements of what the 20 voluntary program that we have today currently has. 21 And so, what will be the level playing field 22 here?

### Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Committee Meeting 08-26-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 110 1 MR. EISNER: Right now people are voluntarily 2 paying you -- 3 MR. AMRANE: Absolutely 4 MR. EISNER: -- and it's not required at 5 all. You're fearful that if DOE had a lower standard, 6 they would drop out of your program? 7 MR. AMRANE: That could be. That would not 8 be fair to those who are already doing that voluntary 9 program. 10 MS. ARMSTRONG: So, I think the Department's 11 perspective on this is, you know, Bill -- and we thank 12 Bill for giving the presentation, but that's the reason 13 for the question. The devil's in the details here. 14 And yes, we can require that, you know, the Department 15 wants to come up with -- to the extent a verification 16 program comes out with a consensus vote here. 17 What we're trying to do is -- at some level 18 the requirements of the detailed requirements for those 19 should be equitable. Anyone who wants to enter the 20 market as a verifier, whether it be a manufacturer -- 21 the Department's perspective I don't know that we care 22 at this point, whether it be a manufacturer, whether it

### Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Committee Meeting 08-26-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 111 1 be a third-party lab that wants to run their own, or 2 whether it be, you know, an entity like an industry3 run certification program. 4 What we want to know is what are those 5 requirements? What are the details? When do 6 notifications need to be made? How many unites need to 7 be tested? What type of lab are they tested in? I 8 mean, I wasn't trying to be -- when I was asking Bill 9 all of those questions, it's the details where things, 10 where the comparisons will be made to see if things are 11 equitable. If we come up saying, yes, the Department 12 should require as DOE verification program and to your 13 point Karim, you don't believe the Department should -- 14 your concern is the Department shouldn't just 15 rubberstamp things, and you know, anything that we 16 would say yes, this meets the Department approved 17 verification program, should be of equal stringency a 18 the AHRI program. Well, what does that mean? 19 And it's hard to say -- Bill, I've read the 20 operations manuals. And while they are absolutely 21 grand, there are a lot of details like the questions we 22 were asking today that aren't in them. And you guys

### Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Committee Meeting 08-26-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 112 1 know how you run your program, so that's what we're 2 trying to get at. What is it that we could say and it 3 might be that we just require people to turn over their 4 operations manuals and when they're not -- you know, 5 but it would be some level, some of the things on our 6 slide is those details. 7 How are products selected? How often are the 8 selected? When is the Department notified about what's 9 selected? You know, those are the types of things 10 we're trying to iron out and understand. What is the 11 program that you are running? 12 MR. TRITSIS: Ashley, I keep on referring to 13 the 50-page document, okay, that describes a lot of 14 what you're looking for; including how to select the 15 units, how many units to select, and how to test them, 16 and all of that. Okay. 17 So, you know, it's easy if you have done the 18 due diligence that you are talking about to send us a 19 list of questionnaires so we can answer one-by-one 20 these questions that you might have so we can, you 21 know, you can considered all these into your 22 verification program. Okay.

### Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Committee Meeting 08-26-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 113 1 So, what I'm trying to say to you is, you 2 know, what's in here has been tested over year after 3 year for tens of years. Okay. Just whatever questions 4 you might have, send them to us and we can tell you. 5 Like, you know, like the -- 6 MS. ARMSTRONG: Yeah, but -- 7 MR. TRITSIS: Earlier on you asked, you know, 8 what are these nuances or what are we doing? I sent 9 you an example, okay, of how we test the units and what 10 checklists we are using at the laboratory. I told you 11 how a manufacturer's program like AHRI's provides 12 guidance and instructions to the laboratory. Either to 13 set up the laboratory, before even the laboratory's 14 been built. You know, for example, the VRF program was 15 set up at Intertek with the manufacturer's help. The 16 technicians were trained at Intertek in Plano where the 17 program has been run by the manufacturers. Okay. 18 That's the value that a program provides that you might 19 lose if you lower the bar. 20 MS. BARHYDT: So, let's see -- let's say a 21 standard is 10 EER and that's the federal minimum. 22 Everybody knows that everything sold or at least ought

### Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Committee Meeting 08-26-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 114 1 to meet that standard. But that doesn't stop a 2 manufacturer from saying I make a 14 EER and deriving 3 benefit from that. And so, what I don't understand is 4 if -- right now you've got AHRI members who are being 5 held to this standard and if you're not an AHRI member, 6 you are not being held to any standard. There is no 7 verification testing. So unless DOE randomly goes out 8 and buys something and tests it and it fails, or unless 9 some competitor happens to go out and challenge you 10 through AHRI's program, unless you us one of these 11 mechanisms, there is no one checking what you're 12 claiming. 13 I don't understand how DOE imposing some 14 lesser burden, but more than what it is right now, 15 which is zero. To say, you know, we're going to do 16 some amount of checking. Maybe it's not going to be as 17 much as AHRI does, but some amount of checking, just to 18 make sure that there's at least some threat that if 19 you're not doing what you're supposed to be doing that 20 you will be caught. 21 How that undermines the value that AHRI 22 members see in their position as AHRI members, to me

### Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Committee Meeting 08-26-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 115 1 the closer it gets the more it would undermine AHRI. 2 The bigger the difference, the more AHRI can set itself 3 apart and say, "Members of AHRI are held to this AHRI 4 standard and this is what AHRI does." And the federal 5 standard -- if it goes from there's no verification to 6 there is some verification, that's better. But maybe 7 it's not cost- justified to raise everybody to the same 8 level as the AHRI. 9 MR. CALABRESE: This is Dave Calabrese with 10 AHRI. Maybe there is a distinction between 11 verification testing and enforcement testing. 12 Of course the Agency has every right and they 13 should be ensuring that all parties -- all 14 manufacturers are manufacturing product that meets the 15 standards and we, of course, do not disagree at all. 16 In fact, if you may do enforcement testing on products 17 that are in our program. I mean, that's your right as 18 an enforcement agency. 19 The difference is, if you were to establish a 20 DOE certified -- let's say, at this low bar that we 21 keep talking about. It doesn't require much of 22 anything. You just have to certify that I have a lab

### Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Committee Meeting 08-26-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 116 1 and I tested it in the lab and boom, my products now 2 certified. 3 Manufacturers in the AHRI program are doing 4 20 percent of their units. They're having challenge 5 testing, they're subjected to the challenge testing. 6 They are at this very high bar and these are high 7 efficiency, we know the products meet the standards. 8 These others are at a very low level. They 9 have a competitive advantage and now DOE is inserting 10 itself in the marketplace and creating a competitive 11 advantage to now you can be DOE certified. And AHRI 12 certified, this supposed Cadillac program, really has 13 you know, it would have diminished value. So you are 14 creating a dynamic in the market place where now this 15 new label now has some cachet and in providing 16 competitive marketing advantage to someone who is doing 17 much less than those who for 50-plus years have been 18 doing. 19 MS. BARHYDT: Okay, so I think I now 20 understand the disconnect. DOE is not saying that we 21 want to have a DOE certified list. DOE is not saying 22 we want to run a certification program. It is still a

### Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Committee Meeting 08-26-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 117 1 manufacturer self- certification, the same way it is 2 right now. 3 All we're saying is that there would be a 4 level of verification for the Department to get a 5 feedback loop, so to speak, on those self6 certifications. No one would ever be permitted to say 7 that they were DOE certified. There would be no label. 8 There would be no government endorsement of products. 9 MS. MEYERS: But Laura, that's what your 10 database does. 11 MR. AMRANE: Exactly. 12 MS. MEYERS: That's what your database 13 implies to people looking at those models. 14 MS. ARMSTRONG: Except it has a large 15 disclaimer explaining that it doesn't, right on it. 16 MS. MEYERS: That disclaimer doesn't do 17 anything. You are comparing all units alike. And so, 18 the problem comes in with your database and you're 19 listing products right after each other and to the 20 person looking at that, they all look equal. 21 MS. BARHYDT: So we can take our website down 22 and Tim's going to scream.

### Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Committee Meeting 08-26-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 118 1 MR. MYERS: This is Frank Myers, PVI. What 2 is the DOE directory, where these model existed -- and 3 they're several ways it could be handled. Two sections 4 or a very clear designation by each model, basic model 5 that it's either one, covered by a DOE recognized 6 verification program or two, not covered by a DOE 7 recognized verification program and subject to enhanced 8 DOE monitoring? 9 Or don't put in that last part, but where you 10 recognize so if -- 11 MS. BARHYDT: So if -- 12 MR. MYERS: -- a program that wanted to 13 provide payments for higher efficiency equipment. If 14 they were looking in the directory, the DOE listings of 15 products, it would be very clear those that had 16 undergone a verification program and those that was 17 recognized by DOE and then, the others would not have 18 that recognition. 19 MS. BARHYDT: So I think what we are talking 20 about though, is requiring everyone to participate in 21 some kind of a program and I think the disagreement is 22 over what level that should be and whether or not that

### Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Committee Meeting 08-26-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 119 1 constitutes DOE inserting itself into a part of the 2 marketplace and competing. Whereas, what you're 3 suggesting would be that there was an option to 4 participate or not participate and DOE is -- I mean, 5 what we've talking about is that everybody would be 6 required to participate. 7 MR. MYERS: That wasn't my intent. I could 8 see how you could take what I was saying as meaning 9 that. I would say that everybody has to meet and 10 you've been talking about some minimum level of 11 requirement which could have whatever variables we need 12 to address, but that would not be a recognized 13 verification program. It would just be meeting the 14 minimum. 15 So that it's clear in the directory that you 16 can't get in there, you can't manufacture in the U.S. 17 if you don't meet some minimum requirement, but it's 18 still not the -- I'm trying to preserve whether it's 19 the AHRI program, a UL program or anyone else's higher 20 level program, that that becomes the recognized program 21 and then those that are not in that have to meet some 22 base minimum.

### Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Committee Meeting 08-26-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 120 1 MR. BALLO: This is Tim Ballo. I wouldn't 2 object to having another column in the database to 3 indicate the verification program that applies to your 4 product, whether it's AHRI or UL or some other 5 manufacturer self-directed program. 6 To the point about having -- being concerned 7 about claims made, DOE certified, that sort of thing, 8 you know, the FTC I think has been very clear to use 9 the example of Energy Guide rated with manufacturers 10 making claims in their product listings that because 11 they carry an Energy Guide label that somehow implies 12 some enhanced verification or certification of their 13 product, that the FTC has come out and said that is 14 plainly, we think, contrary to the FTC Act and would be 15 fineable if we catch manufacturers doing that. 16 I don't see why they couldn't do a similar 17 thing for a DOE certified product. 18 MS. BARHYDT: We do occasionally get 19 manufacturers making that claim and we have a nice or a 20 not-so-nice letter that we send to those manufacturers, 21 so you cannot make that claim. 22 MR. BAUMAN: This is Jeff Bauman from

### Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Committee Meeting 08-26-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 121 1 National. It seems like when we talk about a comparable 2 -- which is people with AC lists, AC numbers, models, 3 or manufacturers are going to use it for comparison. 4 Are we talking about -- it almost seems like we'd be 5 better off with -- and Tim and I'm sure some folks may 6 have some issues with this, is not -- for DOE to not 7 publish the actual rating number, but just publish a 8 pass/fail kind of thing and then if somebody wanted to 9 know a rating they would have to go to some certified 10 program from somebody That's really where you have a 11 differentiation is if you're publishing those numbers, 12 people are going to take it whether there's a list next 13 to it or whatever, unless they know that in detail, 14 they're going to use it as their shopping list to say, 15 okay, whose got the best energy consumption versus DOE 16 just saying pass/fail. 17 18 Maybe that information is available, but you 19 would have to go contact DOE to get the ratings or 20 whatever. 21 I'm just saying on the website, to make the 22 DOE website list for any product not a shopping list,

### Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Committee Meeting 08-26-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 122 1 you don't publish the ratings on the website. 2 MS. BARHYDT: I think at this point that 3 would be difficult for us to do because we've received 4 so many FOIAs that FOIA actually requires us to publish 5 information that is getting routinely FOIAed. 6 MR. BALLO: Isn't there also a value to the 7 AHRI list, apart from the DOE list. I mean, from my 8 experience with the AHRI list it contains a lot more 9 columns of information about the products than the DOE 10 list does. The DOE will just have, you know, 11 information that allows you to discern the product 12 class and the rating. AHRI typically has, I mean, I'm 13 drawing a blank on a particular product where I could 14 use this as an example, but they have a lot more 15 information about the product that's really useful for 16 the consumer, the installer, or contractor. 17 MS. MEYERS: This is Karen with Rheem. And 18 you're right, it does. But that may be the second step 19 in a purchasing process. The first step may be the DOE 20 website where the initial shopping occurs. And so, I 21 actually think that Jeff came up with a great idea. 22 And I would support that idea of just not publishing

### Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Committee Meeting 08-26-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 123 1 the ratings on the DOE website. 2 MS. BARHYDT: Our website is not nearly as 3 easy to use as yours. Why would anyone use ours? 4 MR. DOPPEL: Paul Doppel with Mitsubishi. To 5 me, I just have a lot of concerns that there are a lot 6 of potential unintended consequences from this. And 7 you know, we really need to think this through because 8 the concerns that we've raised of, you know, this list 9 being consider as a de facto certification program. 10 You know, that has to be -- from my perspective, has to 11 be avoided at all costs. Because then it's going to 12 devalue, you know, what a lot of us have spent a lot of 13 money and time in getting our brand associated with the 14 AHRI directory and that means a lot. 15 I mean, that's where we would hope people 16 would go first to find out about products, as opposed 17 to DoE. 18 MR. KLEISS: Jeff Kleiss, Lochinvar. 19 I've got a question -- Marshall, are you 20 still on the line? 21 (No response.) 22 MR. KLEISS: Maybe not. Okay. What I was

### Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Committee Meeting 08-26-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 124 1 looking for is from the perspective of the utilities -- 2 MR. HUNT: Yes, I am. 3 MR. KLEISS: Okay, thanks. With respect to 4 utilities, which I think are the primary source of 5 energy efficiency rebates, my experience so far is that 6 AHRI certified efficiency has been the threshold or 7 required for determining qualification for efficiency 8 rebates. Do you see that being maintained, carried 9 forward or is there a certain threshold that you would 10 get to that you would consider using DOE verification 11 to qualify for rebates? 12 MR. HUNT: This is Marshall Hunt, PG&E. We 13 very much are involved in the Consortium for Energy 14 Efficiency, who has for some years now had an agreement 15 with AHRI to where we can go to their website, we the 16 utilities then go -- it's slightly modified and as I 17 see it on the web, version of the certification 18 programs, and I see that as an excellent way to go. In 19 fact, I have supported an extension of that funding by 20 CEE and hope that we can actually increase that effort, 21 because it is so easy to use. 22 CEE establishes the tiers. We would like to

### Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Committee Meeting 08-26-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 125 1 give the manufacturers as big as a market as possible 2 and all the utilities try to set their incentives based 3 on the Consortium for Energy Efficiency tier structure. 4 Does that answer it? 5 MR. AMRANE: Yes. This is Karim with AHRI. 6 But Marshall, what you're referring to is 7 only for residential products. This does not apply to 8 the commercial product we are dealing with in the 9 working group. 10 MR. HUNT: That is true. As I said, I hope 11 we will be able to expand it, because it has been so 12 successful in residential. And so, I'm sort of 13 predicting or setting into the future and hope to be 14 working with AHRI, because I'm on various committee 15 with CEE, that we would be able to continue this 16 successful approach for our customers. 17 MR. TRITSIS: This is Bill Tritsis, AHRI. 18 Just to correct something. Yes, we are working with 19 CEE for a number of years. The portal CEE is 20 displaying is looking into the AHRI directory. We are 21 working with CEE to expand to the heating programs as 22 well, heating and residential and commercial as well.

### Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Committee Meeting 08-26-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 126 1 So this is something that should be coming up pretty 2 soon. 3 At the same time, you know, it's another 4 agency like EPA is using the AHRI directory for 5 listings of Energy Star products for the residential. 6 These are the market dynamics that we think the DOE 7 website will change. Okay. And I think, you know, the 8 caution that you have -- you know, been asked to look 9 into it, is a valid statement. 10 MR. STARR: This is Louis Starr with NEEA. 11 I wonder tomorrow, after Frank presents 12 AHRI's program for the boilers that that might help 13 move the conversation along. I mean, it seems to me a 14 lot that we've kind of mimicked AHRI's program, 15 certainly in the commercial air conditioning equipment 16 and some of the other things. So, it seems like that 17 could be at least a foundation for what the discussion 18 is. For some of the concerns expressed, but just for a 19 framework for what there is because it seems like now 20 there isn't a framework at all of what could be, and 21 that perhaps, would be a good starting place. 22 MR. EISNER: Would it help for the sake of

### Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Committee Meeting 08-26-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 127 1 discussion we took boilers out of it and talked about 2 everybody else? 3 MR. MYERS: This is Frank Myers. We talk 4 about boilers, but really for me, that's a buzz word 5 for build- to-order, engineered-to-order products. 6 Because very similar to the kinds of issues that they 7 have product availability, it's not just size. It's 8 the cost and we have smaller input products that have 9 exceedingly high costs because of the specialty of 10 their design. 11 So, I understand the thought, if boilers 12 means build-to-order, engineered-to-order, then I would 13 be in agreement. But it isn't just boilers. And I 14 haven't spoken up like that because I've just used that 15 as a buzz phrase for this group of issues. I think CRE 16 has some of the same feelings that the boiler folks do. 17 MR. SACHS: This is Harvey. And Frank, would 18 it be feasible to build either one or two definitions 19 of build-to-order, engineered-to-order that might even 20 span both boilers and CRE? 21 Could we get language that we could use in 22 trying to make that distinction?

### Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Committee Meeting 08-26-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 128 1 MR. MYERS: This is Frank Myers. I'd 2 certainly be willing to give that a try. So at least 3 we could have something to talk about. 4 MR. EISNER: Other thoughts on this approach? 5 MR. MOLVIE: This is Pete Molvie with Cleaver 6 Brooks. Is it as simple as they're not built for 7 inventory? 8 MS. BARHYDT: Charlie? 9 MR. HON: I think there is a huge difference 10 between built to inventory and custom products. There 11 are lots of products in this room that are built only 12 to order, but are sold countless times a year. 13 MS. BARHYDT: So they're not engineered-to14 order, but the same challenge would exist in terms of 15 having units available for testing. Because absent an 16 order, there's no inventory. 17 MR. STARR: This is Louis Starr with NEEA. I 18 guess another question is, I had taken it that it was 19 the boilers. I think we heard the boiler manufacturers 20 saying that there's really not ever a problem with 21 what's in the marketplace in terms of the efficiency 22 claims and the actual efficiency. Would that be true

### Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Committee Meeting 08-26-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 129 1 of some of the other custom equipment, as well or not 2 so much so? 3 MR. EISNER: Any response to that? 4 MS. HOOTMAN: Jill Hootman, Trane. I think 5 the commercial HVAC manufacturers have said we're in a 6 "certify all" program with AHRI, so those are 7 certified, built-to-order are certified. 8 If it falls under the scope of the program, 9 you have to certify all. 10 MR. STARR: What's the difference between 11 your product and Frank's product that's built-to-order 12 MR. MYERS: This is Frank Myers, PVI. We 13 actually don't participate in the -- we don't have any 14 products that are in the AHRI program. However, were I 15 to be in the water heater side, the scope there covers 16 products in two ways. One is mandatory and then you 17 get above a certain point it becomes optional. You 18 have the opportunity to put your products in, but 19 you're not required to put your products in and 20 similarly, with boilers. So that you have to put them 21 in up to a certain BTU input and above that you can put 22 them in, but you're not required to.

### Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Committee Meeting 08-26-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 130 1 MS. BARHYDT: I suggest that we go to lunch. 2 Everybody seems to be running low on fuel. 3 MR. EISNER: Okay. I've got one o'clock. 4 Let's come back at two o'clock. 5 (Whereupon, at 1:00 p.m., a luncheon recess 6 was taken.) 7 MR. EISNER: Can everybody take their seats 8 and we'll get started? 9 Did anybody work out the solution to this 10 morning's issues want to raise their hand? 11 MR. SACHS: I'm sorry, I didn't. 12 MR. HON: We have a question. Several of us 13 were discussing this at lunch, but we have a question. 14 What would the DOE consider minimum/maximum amount of 15 units to verify in a year? 16 MS. BARHYDT: Minimum, greater than one. 17 MR. HON: Okay. Greater than one or what? 18 MS. BARHYDT: One or more. 19 MR. HON: One or more, okay. 20 MS. BARHYDT: Greater than or equal to. 21 MR. HON: Okay. And maximum? 22 MS. BARHYDT: I don't think I know a maximum.

### Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Committee Meeting 08-26-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 131 1 MR. HON: Okay. Percentage-wise of the total 2 units we list on all of our models? 3 MS. BARHYDT: I am very, very, very open to 4 negotiation. You know how many models you have way 5 better than I do. 6 MR. HON: Right. 7 MS. BARHYDT: And so DOE would like to see 8 some minimum amount of verification testing going on 9 funded by the manufacturers. Beyond that, I don't 10 think we have a real specific agenda of we want to see 11 X-percent of things on the market. We understand there 12 are a lot of different circumstances. There are a lot 13 of different types of products. There are different -- 14 we've talked about the built inventory, custom built. 15 We understand there are a lot of different scenarios 16 and situations, and we are willing to be very flexible. 17 And it may be that the negotiation reaches a 18 conclusion. And I think it was Rusty who had the 19 really cool spreadsheet, that it was a multifactor 20 program where the more you test, it eases up on some of 21 the other burdens; and the less you test, it tightens 22 up. We are completely open to that kind of thing. We

### Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Committee Meeting 08-26-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 132 1 would just like to see some kind of verification funded 2 by the manufacturers on an ongoing basis. 3 MR. SACHS: This is Harvey. And there's 4 really a parallel program -- or parallel question for 5 AHRI. We've heard a lot about the 20 percent of basic 6 model groups with variations for some program. And I 7 think the question that's in my mind as I'm trying to 8 think about a question to you is the question whether 9 these numbers were derived at analytically through 10 statistical analysis, these sample sizes, or whether 11 these were experiential-based that this seemed to be 12 enough, but not too burdensome. So is there an 13 analytical basis for the percentages and numbers used 14 AHRI that would be of use to DOE or are these 15 experiential and still may be of use? 16 MR. AMRANE: This is Karim with AHRI. I 17 think it's mostly based on experience, 50 years running 18 programs. That's how those numbers were established. 19 So it's really those have changed along the way and 20 today that's what it is. 21 MR. SACHS: Thank you, Karim, but I could 22 infer from that that if it fit well enough that nobody

### Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Committee Meeting 08-26-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 133 1 has seriously commissioned a study of whether, you 2 know, half that number would be adequate. I think 3 that's an important question. 4 MR. HURST: Harvey, I will tell you as a 5 manufacturer the way we look at it from the standpoint 6 of how much we are tested, if you look at the product 7 life cycle, some of our platforms will go 3 years, some 8 of them will go 12 years. Once every 5 years seems 9 about right to hit most of the product that's going to 10 be sold into commerce. If you were in a technology 11 field, like computers, 5 years would probably be too 12 long, but I think for the cycle time of our products -- 13 and, again, wide variability in the product portfolio 14 that we're talking about here. But for us, it seems 15 about right, and that's not scientific, but that's how 16 we look at it. 17 MR. SACHS: Thanks, John. And that's 18 actually very important. It's not a perspective I had 19 thought about and that suggests for somebody like 20 Cleaver Brooks that's making nothing but heirloom 21 products -- 22 MR. MOLVIE: That are perfect.

### Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Committee Meeting 08-26-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 134 1 MR. SACHS: Perfect heirloom products that 2 has a long product life cycle and I'm sure your 3 products in general are that way as well. 4 MR. HALLEY: Well, we're, you know, right 5 along with Cleaver Brooks really. 6 MR. SACHS: So that much smaller verification 7 burden, if any, and the asymptote on that is none, is 8 quite appropriate. 9 MR. HON: This is Charlie Hon. One other 10 comment. We previously had discussed there was going 11 to be some idea of how to -- I know AHRI had said they 12 would consider looking at this, how the base model 13 concept they have right now versus the DOE's base model 14 concept. Numbers-wise, how do they coordinate? 15 MR. AMRANE: This is Karim with AHRI. We 16 haven't done that. And that's the thing, it was too 17 fresh. I mean, so many factors we'll have to go back 18 and look at based on the new definition that we agreed 19 to, you know, how that would translate to. But that's 20 why I think for us the concept of a basic model group I 21 think is something we should be discussing because, 22 based on experience, we felt that that's the best way

### Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Committee Meeting 08-26-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 135 1 of handling the number of the many tests that we're 2 doing. 3 MR. HON: This is Charlie Hon. And that's 4 why I'm asking that question because that's one of the 5 drivers to make this work. We have to get the concept 6 of basic models for DOE versus the basic models for 7 AHRI. And then we would have some comparative analysis. 8 Say that we would, under your definition and DOE 9 definition we would have three times as many basic 10 models as AHRI would have, then we would be looking at 11 about an 8 percent test rate to match his test rate. 12 But if it's 4 times as much it'd be 5 percent. But 13 obviously as an optional program they're wanting to be 14 above the minimum rate so that they have a marketable 15 product saying ours is tested more severely than the 16 government's test. And so we're just trying to get 17 some feel for that, where does this fall? 18 MS. BARHYDT: So we were thinking that given 19 the wide variety of products and the very different 20 places where I think all the different manufacturers 21 are, we were thinking it might be useful for people to 22 break up into the different product areas. And I don't

### Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Committee Meeting 08-26-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 136 1 know how that will end up working for those of us who 2 aren't aligned with a single product, but that maybe it 3 would be beneficial to have the various product areas 4 just sit down and come up with a proposal for their own 5 product for build-to-order custom, but also the 6 inventory products, and everybody come up with actual 7 proposals. Because we have talked about a lot of 8 issues. We seem to be starting to talk in circles a 9 little bit, and I think we need to get some actual 10 concrete proposals down on the table. 11 MR. KLEISS: Jeff Kleiss, Lochinvar. We 12 should probably outline what specific questions, what 13 deliverables you want out of those discussions. 14 MS. ARMSTRONG: (Off microphone.) 15 MS. BARHYDT: Yeah. Does everyone still have 16 their slide package from probably three meetings ago? 17 MR. SACHS: (Off microphone.) 18 MS. BARHYDT: 7-31; 2013 up in the top right19 hand corner. 20 MR. SACHS: Thank you. 21 MS. BARHYDT: And starting on Slide Number -- 22 starting there. All right. Starting on Slide 27 there

### Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Committee Meeting 08-26-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 137 1 are a series of questions and issue. And so it would be 2 addressing all of those different aspects. 3 MR. MYERS: This is Frank Myers with PVI. I 4 had tossed out a general proposal. It doesn't answer 5 the questions, Laura, I think that you're looking for, 6 the specificity, but that is to have essentially two 7 tiers identified in the DOE listing so that the 8 directory shows the source of the claim deficiency. I 9 tossed some wording together where you would identify 10 each basic model as being either efficiency claim 11 provided and verified by DOE to recognize verification 12 program or efficiency provided by manufacturer. 13 All products would have to meet whatever 14 level we agree on as the continuing review of the 15 product. That doesn't have to be included in this 16 designation. So where I say "efficiency claim provided 17 by the manufacturer," you would still have to meet 18 whatever we come up with, but that way there'd be two 19 levels. If we went that way, what would the efficiency 20 be for and how would we characterize the first level, 21 which is the DOE- recognized verification program? 22 What would be the identifying characteristics of that?

### Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Committee Meeting 08-26-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 138 1 The second would be what is this base level? 2 If you're going to be a manufacturer's claimed 3 deficiency, what base level of continuing review do you 4 have to have? 5 So if we go that way, we would need two sets 6 of characterizations: one for the product at this 7 minimum level and the other for the verification 8 program. 9 MS. BARHYDT: So are folks amenable to 10 breaking into small groups? 11 MR. EISNER: How much time do you want to 12 take? 13 MS. BARHYDT: Pick a group, I have to. 14 MR. AMRANE: I don't think that all the 15 groups are represented here anyway, so I'm not sure. I 16 mean, we've got so many products -- 17 MS. ARMSTRONG: Yeah. So I think from the 18 Department's perspective -- I think DOE's perspective 19 we're looking to get some words on a screen to discuss. 20 In other words, we've heard a lot of discussion in the 21 past couple weeks and the only way to potentially move 22 this forward is to start somewhere with some words that

### Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Committee Meeting 08-26-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 139 1 we can either agree to or disagree to and see if we can 2 go from there. So we're hoping that by doing some type 3 of breakout DOE can also give it a shot separately that 4 we can come up with something that can start the 5 discussions of, yes, this is going in the right 6 direction; no. And if we're really that far off from 7 everything, then we go from there. 8 UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: What are the 9 recommended groups? 10 MS. ARMSTRONG: You can do it by product type 11 in terms of like boilers, water heaters, HVAC. 12 MS. BARHYDT: CRE. 13 MS. ARMSTRONG: CRE. So those are the four 14 big ones, if that would work. Or you might want to put 15 boilers and water heaters together, I don't know. 16 They're kind of different, though. That's kind of up 17 to you guys. 18 MS. BARHYDT: Or you could just do build to 19 inventory, build to stock, custom, and not do it 20 product- specific. It depends on what you all think 21 will work in terms of proposals. 22 MR. SACHS: Laura, this is Harvey. My ears

### Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Committee Meeting 08-26-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 140 1 don't always work well, but I think it's got to start 2 with product, then drill down. 3 MS. BARHYDT: I tend to think so, too. 4 MR. SACHS: Besides, that gives me an excuse 5 to go get coffee while you all are negotiating. 6 MS. BARHYDT: What did you do at lunch, 7 Harvey? 8 MR. MYERS: This is Frank Myers, PVI. Would 9 gas-fired products be -- gas- or oil-fired products, 10 combustion products be one group and ACB another group, 11 then perhaps CRE a third group? 12 MS. BARHYDT: So you're suggesting water 13 heater and boiler should go together? 14 MR. MYERS: Yes. 15 MS. HOOTMAN: But when you're saying gas16 fired you're not including the gas-fired package units 17 that commercial HVAC makes? We have commercial 18 furnaces -- 19 MR. MYERS: Sure. 20 MS. HOOTMAN: -- CFRN, so how are you going 21 to split -- 22 MR. MYERS: I'm just trying to figure where

### Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Committee Meeting 08-26-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 141 1 to -- 2 MS. HOOTMAN: -- about 10 of us in the room? 3 You're going to split us in half. 4 MR. MYERS: Yeah. 5 MR. WHITWELL: Commercial furnaces should 6 stay with the commercial HVAC. 7 MS. HOOTMAN: Yes. 8 MR. MYERS: Okay. 9 (Off microphone discussion.) 10 MR. EISNER: Do we have some consensus on the 11 groups? 12 MS. BARHYDT: Okay, so -- go ahead. 13 MR. KLEISS: Jeff with Lochinvar. I think 14 that we might need to go through a couple of iterations 15 of this since there are overlaps, so I'd suggest, from 16 my perspective, start with boilers. 17 MS. BARHYDT: So we break for an hour and 18 then reconvene and let people switch groups if they 19 want to switch? Or we break for two hours? How long 20 do you all -- there are a lot of aspects and questions 21 and issues to go over, but I just saw Jeff for one, one 22 hour.

### Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Committee Meeting 08-26-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 142 1 MR. HURST: Check in after an hour. 2 MS. BARHYDT: Check in after an hour. Does 3 that work? 4 MR. EISNER: What are the groups? 5 MS. BARHYDT: So CRE -- 6 MR. EISNER: Boilers, CRE -- 7 MR. WHITWELL: HVAC. 8 MS. BARHYDT: -- HVAC, and then were boilers 9 and water heaters going together or separate? 10 UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: (Off microphone.) 11 MS. BARHYDT: Together, okay. So boilers and 12 water heaters are together. 13 MR. EISNER: Okay. 14 MR. WHITWELL: And Harvey is going to get 15 coffee. 16 MS. BARHYDT: And Harvey's going to get 17 coffee. 18 So I will look into some additional space, 19 but one suggestion has been one group at the back, one 20 group at the front. Whatever the smallest group is, I 21 think I can get you a conference room on my floor, but 22 it is a small conference room so it would definitely

### Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Committee Meeting 08-26-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 143 1 need to be the smallest group. 2 MR. WHITWELL: Why don't you have people 3 raise their hands -- 4 MS. BARHYDT: Okay. So who's going to HVAC? 5 (Hands raised.) 6 MS. BARHYDT: Who's going to water 7 heater/boiler? 8 (Hands raised.) 9 MS. BARHYDT: Okay, that's definitely bigger. 10 And CRE? 11 (Hands raised.) 12 MR. EISNER: They're all big. 13 MS. BARHYDT: They're all about the same. 14 Okay, so much for that theory because I don't think any 15 of you all -- any of those groups would fit into the 16 conference room we have. 17 UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: We could go to the 18 coat closet. 19 MS. BARHYDT: Oh, we could pull chairs over 20 into the closet where AHRI met before. That would 21 work. 22 MR. WHITWELL: Yeah.

### Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Committee Meeting 08-26-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 144 1 MS. BARHYDT: So, everybody good to go? 2 MR. SACHS: You haven't told which group is 3 where. 4 MS. BARHYDT: I figure you all can work out 5 where you want to meet. Okay, so boilers and water 6 heaters are going to the back room because it was 7 Jeff's idea. 8 UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: Who is in the closet? 9 MS. BARHYDT: Apparently water heaters and 10 boilers. 11 UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: Okay. 12 MS. BARHYDT: CRE's here, HVAC in that half 13 of the room. So be back at 3:30. 3:30, everybody. 14 (Whereupon, the meeting recessed into 15 product work groups at 2:27 p.m. and went 16 back on the record at 3:57 p.m.) 17 MR. EISNER: Can everybody take your seats? 18 (Pause.) 19 MS. BARHYDT: Okay, this is Laura Barhydt 20 again. Ashley isn't sure if she's going to stay until 21 6:00 and she actually wanted to raise an issue on the 22 motors issue for people to think about, so if you all

### Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Committee Meeting 08-26-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 145 1 don't mind completely shifting gears and then we'll 2 come back to our little breakout sessions. 3 MS. ARMSTRONG: Because Jill asked about it, 4 really. 5 So, this is Ashley from DOE. This is mostly 6 what you have seen before except we've revised the 7 language on the slide and the reason I wanted to show 8 it to you now is because we would like to take a vote 9 on it tomorrow, and it's going to require some thought, 10 I think, from you guys because specifically it's a 11 concept and I realize that we've seen some of the back 12 and forths that have been going back and we appreciate 13 you guys' efforts to work with NEMA and the motor 14 manufacturers and provide -- so, you'll see, based on 15 what we discussed this morning, one of the questions 16 Harvey asked, the Department's position on that 17 question, you see some -- two bullets at the end which 18 weren't there before, one is, an electric motor for 19 which a DOE test procedure does not exist cannot be 20 grouped with a DOE covered motor for purposes of 21 certification. 22 So, that means you can't go from like an ECM

### Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Committee Meeting 08-26-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 146 1 to a different type of motor. In other words, where 2 there's scaling that can't clearly be defined, and then 3 a non- covered motor can be grouped together if a 4 recognized test procedure is used to ensure that all 5 motors in the grouping have the same relative 6 performance. That gets to Bob's point. The question 7 would be: what is this recognized test procedure? It 8 is our understanding that motor manufacturers currently 9 use some type of input/output method to roughly 10 determine the efficiency. We would have to work -- the 11 Department is committed to working on with you the 12 recognized test procedure part of it so that the 13 scaling could then apply, but we want to agree to the 14 concept so we can wrap up the basic model package. 15 You wanted to think about it tonight, right? 16 MR. WHITWELL: Okay, but I have a 17 clarification question. The first bullet point you 18 talked about -- Bob Whitwell from Carrier -- an 19 electric motor for which DOE test procedure does not 20 exist cannot be grouped with DOE covered motors for 21 purposes of clarification. 22 I think it's very likely that many

### Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Committee Meeting 08-26-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 147 1 manufacturers could have cases where for standard 2 static, they are using a 58 frame motor that would not 3 be covered by DOE test procedure, but then as you go to 4 higher static, it could be a general purpose motor 5 that's covered by the DOE test procedure. 6 So, this would say that there would not be a 7 high static -- DOE would not allow a high static 8 application unless that general purpose motor is tested 9 at a very low static -- external static condition where 10 you're going to be running well below the high 11 efficiency -- well below the peak efficiency of the 12 motor curb. 13 So, that, to me, is -- represents a problem. 14 MR. EISNER: Any other issues or problems? 15 MR. WHITWELL: There may be others, but 16 that's one that jumps out right now. 17 MR. RIVEST: So, I didn't understand. 18 MR. WHITWELL: So, when you start -- I know 19 for example we have cases when you start getting up 20 into the 15-ton range -- 21 MR. RIVEST: Okay. 22 MR. WHITWELL: -- where we will use a non-

### Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Committee Meeting 08-26-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 148 1 covered motor for our standard static -- for our 2 standard rating -- 3 MR. RIVEST: So, non-covered here is in the 4 context of -- 5 MR. WHITWELL: Not covered by DOE 6 efficiencies is what I understand this to be. 7 MR. RIVEST: But I'm really talking about the 8 test procedure here. So, in other words, we don't want 9 - - DOE doesn't want you to match in the same grouping 10 motors that can be rated with motors that cannot be 11 rated. 12 MR. WHITWELL: Okay, but -- 13 MR. RIVEST: Covered/not-covered is not from 14 a standard point of view. It's covered, as in test 15 procedure. So, we need to clarify that language. 16 17 18 MR. WHITWELL: Okay. 19 MR. RIVEST: So, your motor, it may not be 20 covered by DOE regulation, but it does have an 21 efficiency value because there is a DOE test procedure 22 that, so you could do that grouping.

### Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Committee Meeting 08-26-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 149 1 MR. WHITWELL: Okay, so who is responsible 2 for coming up with the efficiency for that motor? I 3 mean, I have a motor curve -- I have a curve of -- an 4 efficiency curve from the manufacturer, so is that my 5 responsibility to determine what that efficiency is? 6 Or do I use that data from the manufacturer? 7 MR. RIVEST: Was this a definite purpose 8 motor? 9 MR. WHITWELL: No. This is a -- say, a 58- 10 frame, so a fractional -- you know, it's not a -- 11 definite purpose, sorry, not a general purpose motor. 12 MR. RIVEST: It can be tested, yes. 13 MR. WHITWELL: Who? 14 MR. RIVEST: Well, the manufacturer will do 15 it. 16 MS. ARMSTRONG: So, yes it would be your 17 responsibility to work with the motor manufacturer to 18 make sure that -- and you have some level of 19 performance that you know for your base motor, and that 20 you're maintaining that level of performance for the 21 higher statics in order to qualify for this exclusion. 22 MR. BALLO: Would it be helpful for the

### Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Committee Meeting 08-26-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 150 1 manufacturers in the room to have a list of the motors 2 where this would actually be a problem? Is it only the 3 air over motors or other motors that are -- that would 4 sort of relegate you to a single set of motors for that 5 product? 6 MS. ARMSTRONG: It depends on what they put 7 in their products, right? So, it's really to them. 8 MR. RIVEST: The only motor class we're aware 9 of that can't be rated according to the test procedure 10 is the air over. So, that's the one that you couldn't 11 incorporate in the larger grouping. 12 MR. WHITWELL: Sorry, I'm not familiar. 13 Where could I find the definition of the air over? 14 MR. RIVEST: Exact definition? 15 MS. ARMSTRONG: You want the one we proposed? 16 MR. WHITWELL: Yeah. 17 MS. ARMSTRONG: Let's see. We proposed one 18 in the open rulemaking for electric motor in the test 19 procedure. An air over electric motor means a motor 20 designed to be cooled by a ventilating means external 21 to and not supplied with the motor. 22 MR. JOHNSON: Tom Johnson. Is that the same

### Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Committee Meeting 08-26-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 151 1 as NEMA definition? 2 MS. ARMSTRONG: I think it was based on, so 3 it's either the same or pretty close to being based on. 4 MR. JOHNSON: Okay. 5 MS. ARMSTRONG: I don't have that right in 6 front of me but, yeah. But yeah, that's the idea. It 7 would be comparable to what NEMA and the motor 8 manufacturers currently refer to as an air over 9 electric motor. 10 It is our understanding that the existing DOE 11 test procedure can apply to the rest, or at least the 12 ones we've heard of. 13 MR. WHITWELL: Okay. I'm not sure I can vote 14 on this tomorrow because I don't know whether the data 15 that I have from the manufacturer is tested per the DOE 16 test procedure or not, I mean, I have data from the 17 manufacturer, but I don't know whether it's per the DOE 18 procedure or not. I need time to find out. 19 So, I don't know whether I have an issue or 20 not. 21 MR. RIVEST: Okay. 22 MR. EISNER: Will you be able to find out by

### Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Committee Meeting 08-26-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 152 1 Wednesday or it looks like you're going into next week? 2 MR. WHITWELL: I don't know. I will have to 3 try. 4 MR. EISNER: Fair enough. 5 MS. ARMSTRONG: I mean, the DOE test 6 procedure is the industry test procedure. 7 MR. WHITWELL: You know, it's a matter of we 8 need to go to our motor suppliers and ask them if they 9 test -- if this data that we have is per the DOE test 10 procedure. Hopefully they will know the answer to 11 that. I don't know, I mean, I'm not familiar with this. 12 This is proposed. 13 MS. MEYERS: So, is the rule final on these 14 motors? 15 MS. ARMSTRONG: It depends on the type. We 16 have an open rule for the test procedure right now for 17 certain types of motors, which is clarifying where we 18 currently don't have standards but we have cover 19 motors, it's clarifying that the existing test 20 procedure is applicable to them because they're already 21 being used. It's already being used for them. 22 MR. WHITWELL: So, are motor manufacturers

### Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Committee Meeting 08-26-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 153 1 aware of the test procedure? 2 MS. ARMSTRONG: Absolutely. And they're 3 already using it. This was part of their, like, joint 4 proposal to the Department consensus. 5 MR. WHITWELL: So how do we -- is there a 6 reference we should use when we ask the motor 7 manufacturer if they're testing per the test procedure? 8 MS. ARMSTRONG: Yeah, I can give it to you. 9 MR. WHITWELL: Okay. 10 MS. ARMSTRONG: That's the existing one. 11 MS. BARHYDT: (Off microphone.) 12 MR. RIVEST: So, basically the second bullet 13 says that you can't mix motors that can be rated with 14 those that can't be rated, and the third bullet says 15 that if you have, for example, air over motors and 16 they're being used in the whole grouping, then we're 17 looking to NEMA to propose a means -- a simplified -- 18 the way it was described to me is there's a simple 19 output over input test that they run that is not the 20 DOE test procedure but that would allow comparison 21 between different motor efficiencies. 22 MR. WHITWELL: And which type of motors is

### Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Committee Meeting 08-26-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 154 1 that for? 2 MR. RIVEST: That's for the air over. 3 MR. WHITWELL: (Off microphone.) 4 MS. ARMSTRONG: No, TEVs are separate. 5 MR. RIVEST: Totally Enclosed Air Over -- 6 TEAO. Or they can be open and air over. 7 MS. MEYERS: So, Mike, this is Karen. Again, 8 would you repeat -- so, you said you could not rate 9 together -- 10 MR. RIVEST: There is no test procedure for 11 air over motors, so it wouldn't be possible to apply 12 any scaling between an air over motor and a 13 conventional induction motor or an ECM. There is no -- 14 so, it would not be possible to group them into the 15 same basic model definition, to extend the rating of 16 your base model to the whole group, but what you could 17 do is create a grouping of products that all have air 18 over motors, qualify that group using, you know, your 19 base model, and then extend your rating so long as the 20 relative efficiency of those motors as they get bigger, 21 you know, follows the trend. 22 And that's what -- what needs to be defined

### Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Committee Meeting 08-26-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 155 1 is what that test procedure is, because it's not a DOE 2 test procedure. 3 MS. BARHYDT: (Off microphone.) 4 MR. RIVEST: The second bullet? 5 (Off microphone discussion.) 6 MR. RIVEST: That wording's good. 7 MS. HOOTMAN: This is Jill from Trane. So, 8 Mike, if we have an ECM and that is just a little bit, 9 I think, kind of filling in what Bob was saying, if you 10 have an ECM motor and it's a fractional and it doesn't 11 have a DOE test procedure, and it's now on our current 12

-- 13 MR. RIVEST: It has, from the data I saw; ECM 14 motors have ratings, so they must be rated according to 15 a test procedure. 16 MS. HOOTMAN: I'm trying to find an example 17 though that I can think of like he's talking about, 18 because I think we have them. My problem I'm seeing is, 19 okay, you can't group them in the same basic model, so 20 let's say we had to separate them and now we have to 21 certify two basic models. I get what you're trying to 22 say there.

### Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Committee Meeting 08-26-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 156 1 MR. RIVEST: Right. 2 MS. HOOTMAN: But what if now, because it's 3 high static, you have no way of testing it in that 4 commercial HVAC unit down to where it needs to properly 5 be tested by the AHRI test procedure? You're now 6 taking a motor that was -- that is designed -- we're 7 certifying a separate motor, a separate basic model now 8 for our high static applications. 9 MR. RIVEST: I don't know that there's any 10 relationship between horsepower and air over. 11 MS. BARHYDT: There's no motor -- 12 MR. RIVEST: You know, I don't know why you 13 couldn't do it. 14 MS. HOOTMAN: Because now we're saying, I've 15 got XYZ model. And it's split; let's say it's split 16 between these two different types. The base model, 17 which would be the static that was covered by AHRI, so 18 it would be the standard static, it can be -- now we 19 have to separate the two of those by what you're 20 saying, we have to separate these two by a basic model 21 and have a separate certification for the unit -- for 22 the unit.

### Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Committee Meeting 08-26-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 157 1 So, the low static or the standard static 2 models would have a test procedure, you know, to the 3 low static. 4 MR. RIVEST: I see. 5 MS. HOOTMAN: The high static models now that 6 are now being certified, because they're now in a 7 separate motor class and now they have to separate, I 8 really don't want them designed or run down to -- and 9 it is not efficient to run them down to that low static 10 now of the AHRI test procedure. So, what are we going 11 to do about that? 12 MS. BARHYDT: But is there a comparable -- is 13 there a motor with comparable characteristics that you 14 can put in that same basic -- 15 MS. HOOTMAN: That we don't use. 16 MS. BARHYDT: But that you could use for 17 rating at the low static? 18 MS. HOOTMAN: I don't know. And that 19 literally would be -- I could not answer. I'm like 20 Bob, I could not answer that tomorrow. It would take 21 us a lot of study and probably have to go back in the 22 test room to even see because now we have a different

### Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Committee Meeting 08-26-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 158 1 rating. We don't have a rating to provide you with 2 that. So, 18 months may not be -- 3 MR. RIVEST: I know a lot of presumed here. 4 It's -- 5 MS. HOOTMAN: Right. 6 MR. RIVEST: A lot is presumed. 7 MR. BALLO: Would it be possible to amend the 8 test procedure for those high static applications to -- 9 if you do have to test the high static motor you can 10 test it at a higher static? 11 MS. HOOTMAN: Amending the test procedure 12 means that test rooms now would have to be set up to do 13 that high static and it's a significant investment in 14 those test rooms and in some cases they're physically 15 limited right now and would not even be able to do it. 16 MR. RIVEST: You would also have to change 17 the minimum standards. I mean -- 18 MS. HOOTMAN: Good point. 19 MS. MEYERS: I think Diane Jakobs is on the 20 webinar. I think she has a point. She's raised her 21 hand. She's trying to get unmuted. 22 MS. JAKOBS: Can you hear me?

### Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Committee Meeting 08-26-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 159 1 MR. EISNER: Yes, go ahead. 2 MS. JAKOBS: I just wanted to say that in the 3 last week I was looking up our spec sheets and what 4 equipment we have and it was the same point that I 5 brought up like in July, that the standard drive is a 6 56 frame, which is not rated, and the high static drive 7 is a 184-frame, which is rated, and so actually our 8 standard drives that were establishing the rating is a 9 lower efficiency motor in our estimate even though 10 there's no test standard. That's how we perceive it. 11 Then the high static motor, under high static 12 conditions, the high static motor uses more watts and 13 actually I was talking to one of the design engineers 14 and he was saying at higher -- these e-motors that are 15 supposed to be more efficient, that we don't really see 16 at our rating conditions any improvement, but at really 17 high statics, a different place on the motor curve, 18 there is actually more efficiency. 19 So, it's all a matter -- you can't just say 20 "a" test standard. It's very specific to where these 21 motors run efficiently. Maybe they run, maybe they 22 don't run, but where they're intended to be -- where

### Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Committee Meeting 08-26-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 160 1 they're designed to run is very different than other 2 places, other conditions. 3 So, to me, this is the same as what was 4 proposed in July. And to say that you can't group them 5 together, that's saying we're like back to the 6 beginning, that we would have to redesign equipment, so 7 I'm kind of discouraged. 8 MR. RIVEST: I'm sorry, this is Mike Rivest. 9 Were you under the impression that the scaling was 10 intended to -- to what, exactly? I mean, the intent of 11 the scaling was to ensure that motors at a higher 12 static were as efficient or were relatively the same 13 efficiency as those being used to certify. That's the 14 only point of the scaling. 15 If it results in having to -- 16 MS. JAKOBS: Right. 17 MR. RIVEST: -- change designs, well, that 18 means they are using -- you're certifying with motors 19 that are more efficient than those to which you're 20 extending that certification to. 21 MS. JAKOBS: You said they can't be grouped 22 together that are not -- where did it say that? Motors

### Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Committee Meeting 08-26-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 161 1 - - oh, shoot. 2 MR. WHITWELL: Yeah, I think she's describing 3 the same situation that I was trying to describe -- 4 MS. JAKOBS: Yes. 5 MR. WHITWELL: -- where you have a general 6 purpose motor that's used for high static and a 48 or 7 56 frame motor that's your standard, and if you look at 8 the data from the manufacturer that we have for the 9 standard motor and scale it per the example that we had 10 for general purpose motors, the general purpose motor 11 would be -- would meet the requirements. 12 The issue is, now, I think she has the same 13 issue that I have, I don't know whether our 48 and 50 14 frame motors -- 15 MR. RIVEST: So, you understand, for me, 16 those frames mean nothing, right, to me. I mean, the 17 frames are -- 18 MR. WHITWELL: They're not general purpose. 19 They are definite purpose motors. Forty-eight and 50 20 frame -- 21 MR. RIVEST: They're not 22 MR. WHITWELL: -- are not included in the

### Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Committee Meeting 08-26-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 162 1 general purpose motor definition. 2 MS. JAKOBS: But when you -- the third bullet 3 where you say that they can't be -- 4 MR. RIVEST: But they can be tested according 5 to the DOE test procedure. 6 MS. JAKOBS: -- certifications, that means we 7 can't put them together, so -- 8 MR. RIVEST: Where are you reading that? 9 MS. JAKOBS: Even though we're rating with a 10 lower efficiency motor, that bullet says we can't group 11 it with a more efficient motor. 12 MR. RIVEST: This is not about -- did we get 13 rid of the covered? If it can be tested with the DOE 14 test procedure, then it can be grouped and the scaling 15 applied. 16 MR. WHITWELL: Yeah, so -- 17 MR. RIVEST: If it cannot be tested, and as 18 far as we know, that's only the air over motors, then 19 it cannot be grouped because we couldn't make any 20 determination as to its relative efficiency with the 21 other motors in that grouping. 22 MS. JAKOBS: I guess not too many of us know

### Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Committee Meeting 08-26-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 163 1 that much about motors, but what I understand, if the 2 housing has holes in it and there's air blowing over 3 it, it's going to cool the -- it's going to cool the 4 windings and it's going to affect the efficiency of the 5 motor. And I think that's what we're using here. I 6 don't know if they're rated with the air over test 7 procedure, but I think that we are blowing air over the 8 windings, which affects the efficiency of the motor. 9 MR. RIVEST: So, these are terms of art. I 10 mean, the motor people have engaged you. I had 11 conversations with them. They told me there is no test 12 procedure for air over motors, there is no comparison 13 that can be made between air over motor efficiency and 14 the efficiency of induction motors or ECMs. 15 MS. JAKOBS: But when we're testing the unit 16 in our unit -- 17 MR. RIVEST: I understand there's air 18 flowing, but that doesn't make all those motors air 19 over motors. They could be general purpose motors that 20 happen to have air movement around them, but the 21 difference is these air over motors will burn if 22 there's no air over them.

### Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Committee Meeting 08-26-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 164 1 MR. WHITWELL: Or definite purpose motors -- 2 or definite purpose motors. They could be tested -- 3 hopefully the data I have is without air over. 4 MR. RIVEST: Well, definite purpose doesn't 5 mean that it is air over, right? It means it doesn't 6 have the same torque. 7 MS. MEYERS: I think in previous discussions 8 we were all using the term or understanding the term 9 air over to be descriptive, not a product definition, 10 so that's kind of a new twist that you've thrown in -- 11 you threw that in this morning and I did a -- 12 MR. RIVEST: What does it change in what 13 we're trying to accomplish? 14 MS. MEYERS: It's what Diane was describing. 15 I mean -- it's, you know -- 16 MR. RIVEST: What Diane was describing is 17 what - - I don't -- I didn't see a problem in what she 18 was describing. She can rate her motors. You know, 19 there is an efficiency rating for her motors. 20 MS. JAKOBS: There's not one for the 58 21 frame, the one that we use -- 22 MR. RIVEST: Well how did you make the

### Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Committee Meeting 08-26-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 165 1 assertion that it was -- the general purpose was more 2 efficient then? 3 MS. JAKOBS: Because they're NEMA motors and 4 I mean, I was just talking to the engineer. I don't 5 know if it's documented as more efficient. In his 6 experience of working with them, he's in our equipment, 7 that they're more efficient, but what you're talking 8 about would have to have a specific test run on it and 9 be documented, right? It can't just be, we feel like 10 this one's better than that one or -- we're trying to 11 get a certain efficiency and we tried this one and it 12 worked and the other one didn't work, but you're 13 specifying classifications on motors that right now we 14 don't have documentation for. So, that's why we're 15 all confused because we don't know where we stand. 16 But last week I was pretty happy that we had 17 tested with the lease efficient motor -- 18 MR. RIVEST: If you're able to make those 19 statements, that means that you saw efficiency ratings, 20 which means that they can be tested, so you don't have 21 a problem. I saw test -- 22 MS. JAKOBS: I talked to a guy.

### Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Committee Meeting 08-26-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 166 1 MR. RIVEST: I saw manufacturers submittal 2 data where under the efficiency field I had "XX," which 3 no determination could be made because there is no 4 efficiency rating. So, if I have a motor whose 5 efficiency is "XX," then you're right, it's confusing. 6 I don't know what that is. 7 But one can't make the claim that it's an 8 efficient motor. There's a motor being used whose 9 efficiency we don't know, and we're trying to certify 10 the product with an XX motor. 11 MS. JAKOBS: But if you certify -- well, if 12 you certify it with one that's not regulated, you 13 should be able to apply a regulated motor as part of 14 that grouping. Do you think the unregulated ones are 15 more efficient than the regulated motors? 16 MR. RIVEST: The answer is: I don't know. I 17 could presume that an air over motor is less efficient, 18 and if you were to certify using an air over motor and 19 wanted to group general purpose motors with those, that 20 might be okay, but I don't know because the efficiency 21 says XX. 22 MR. AMRANE: This is Karim with AHRI.

### Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Committee Meeting 08-26-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 167 1 MR. RIVEST: And I didn't see anyone 2 certifying with air overs and then using ECMs in the 3 same group. 4 MR. AMRANE: But let me ask you a question, 5 this is Karim with AHRI. Now, for those motors that 6 are not rated today but that can be rated through the 7 DOE test procedure, whose responsibility is it going to 8 be to rate the motors? It's going to be the motor 9 manufacturer's responsibility? If they don't have the 10 ratings today to start rating those motors? Who's 11 going to force them to do that? 12 MS. JAKOBS: I know when I looked at the 13 motor drawings, the -- I think it was 128 frame from 14 the manufacturer, it had an efficiency on the drawing, 15 but the lower horsepower motor didn't. But it was a 16 standard drive, so it was tested because we tested it 17 in our unit. 18 MR. WHITWELL: Bob Whitwell -- go ahead. 19 MS. HOOTMAN: Go ahead -- I would say, Diane, 20 I would agree. I looked up a 56 frame motor and 21 definite purpose, and it shows no rating, from a motor 22 manufacturer that is rather predominant in the United

### Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Committee Meeting 08-26-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 168 1 States that I think we all use. MS. 2 JAKOBS: So, there's no rating on the name plates. 3 MS. HOOTMAN: Because, again, it's definite 4 purpose. I think what they're going to come back to us 5 and say is, you all use them in all different definite 6 purposes. We will test them in a general purpose 7 application, but your definite purpose application is 8 different. So, Mr. HVAC Manufacturer versus Mr. 9 Whatever Manufacturer, I can't tell you what your 10 efficiency is. 11 MR. WHITWELL: Yes, so -- this is Bob 12 Whitwell from Carrier. So, I think, you know, 13 basically we've got some work to do to understand where 14 we are, so Ashley, can we get a copy of what you had up 15 there and I would suggest that in that statement where 16 you -- that one bullet, wherever it went, that talks 17 about the test procedure, can you put in there that CSA 18 and the IEEE test procedure so that we have that, so 19 that we can go back to our motor manufacturers and see 20 if that's what they use? 21 Because I know that I'm quite sure, because 22 we have run some of these motors on dynos in our lab,

### Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Committee Meeting 08-26-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 169 1 they - - some of the data, anyway, is without air over, 2 but I don't know if it's run for the DOE test 3 procedure. 4 MS. ARMSTRONG: Sure. We can send it out. I 5 mean, I think you guys -- you know, one thing to 6 consider here is that the Department's been given a 7 consensus proposal. It's public, people know about it. 8 The motors you're largely talking about are part of 9 that. To say that they came up with levels without 10 knowing the efficiency of their units to negotiate -- 11 they know what they are, they are tested for the DOE 12 test procedure, that's what they recommended as part of 13 this whole proposal. That's not to say all of them 14 are, but have those discussions because hopefully they 15 can provide some clarity, at least that's what was 16 provided to us. 17 MS. JAKOBS: So, there's going to be 18 representatives on Wednesday who will address this 19 group, right? 20 MS. BARHYDT: Yeah, NEMA had said that they 21 will have somebody here starting at 3:00. 22 MS. JAKOBS: So, will they be able to answer

### Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Committee Meeting 08-26-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 170 1 this question, you think? 2 MR. JOHNSON: That's really bad timing, 3 Laura. 4 MS. BARHYDT: I realize that, but that's what 5 they said they were available for. 6 MR. JOHNSON: I thought they were going to 7 shoot for Wednesday morning. 8 MS. BARHYDT: I don't know when they're 9 providing the information, but they said that they 10 would show up here in person to answer questions 11 starting at 3:00. 12 MR. JOHNSON: Well, if we could get a copy of 13 this as soon as possible, like Bob said, we have some 14 work to do. We've got to go back. 15 MS. ARMSTRONG: That's why I wanted to show - 16

- 17 MS. JAKOBS: We're actually their customers. 18 I don't know that they tell us everything. 19 MS. ARMSTRONG: And we're the Department. I 20 don't know that they tell us anything either. 21 MS. JAKOBS: You might think they work for 22 us, but --

### Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Committee Meeting 08-26-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 171 1 MS. MEYERS: What they came up with -- 2 MS. JAKOBS: Our high static drive, the one I 3 looked at, the nameplate has an efficiency on it and it 4 was actually on Mike's spreadsheet as nominal 5 efficiency, it was 89.5 percent for the one I looked 6 at. So, it seems like you would be happy if I used 7 that one. But, okay. 8 MR. EISNER: Other questions or comments on 9 this section before Ashley leaves? Okay. 10 MS. MEYERS: This is Karen with Rheem. I 11 don't -- you know, until we see this NEMA presentation 12 and such, I don't think that my company will be in a 13 position to vote on this issue, which I know was your 14 desire, because what they have come up with that is -- 15 may have some significant effect on how we group and 16 rate our products, so until we understand that, I don't 17 think we can vote this -- I know I cannot vote this 18 week because I'm going to have to listen to that and 19 then take it back and have a lot of dialogue with our 20 suppliers and when they understand all of this that 21 we're going through, it could even change some of their 22 positions.

### Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Committee Meeting 08-26-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 172 1 MR. EISNER: Is there anything else? Okay, 2 shall we get back to the three breakout groups? 3 (No response.) 4 MR. EISNER: Okay, who wants to report first? 5 Okay, who wants to go second? 6 Boilers, do you want to start? 7 MR. MYERS: The boiler-water heater group 8 basically came to an impasse, unable to resolve the 9 issues. However, there is an opportunity here. 10 Probably 90 percent of the issues are resolvable if it 11 were not for the fact that DOE feels obliged to present 12 the efficiencies in their chart. We found no 13 opportunities for agreement universally as long as the 14 status quo in terms of where people get their 15 efficiency information goes from where it is today to 16 the DOE website. 17 MS. BARHYDT: So, just to be clear, the 18 reason for the impasse is that DOE publishes the 19 information provided to it by manufacturers? 20 MR. MYERS: That's correct. Not that it's 21 provided, but that it's published. And I wasn't 22 nominated as the spokesperson, so if anyone else has a

### Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Committee Meeting 08-26-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 173 1 different take on it, feel free. 2 MR. EISNER: Anybody else? 3 MS. BARHYDT: That information is provided as 4 a manufacturer self-certification, so I guess I'm 5 missing the connection to verification testing. How is 6 that a verification testing issue? 7 MS. MEYERS: So, this is Karen with Rheem. 8 I'll speak a little bit on this because I was on one of 9 the opposite sides. The DOE website is going to show 10 the certified rating of all those products and it is my 11 company's position that if you're going to share the 12 certified ratings, then there also should be similar 13 verification procedures for those certified ratings 14 because if one rating is being held to a much higher 15 standard, it is not, in our opinion, fair for it to be 16 viewed equally on the website as another manufacturer's 17 rating who has not gone through the verification 18 processes that my rating has gone through. 19 So, it does become an issue because you're 20 showing on the website they all look comparable and 21 equal and in fact they're not in the marketplace 22 because one may be verified through a process A,

### Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Committee Meeting 08-26-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 174 1 another one may be verified through a process B, and 2 one may not be verified at all. And so, but they 3 appear equal on the website, and to us that's an unfair 4 advantage to some of those other companies. 5 MR. EISNER: Let me ask a question, if I 6 could, while Laura is thinking. I'm not sure I 7 understand all this, but would it be the same if the 8 chart or whatever that was on DoE's website said 9 "certified rating" or whatever we call it, and then it 10 said, for yours, this has been verified in accordance 11 with the following testing procedures as being at this 12 level, this one has never been verified? Wouldn't that 13 help you? 14 MS. MEYERS: If -- would that make a 15 difference to the Department of Defense who's looking 16 at the ratings on the DOE website on whether to make a 17 purchase decision? Would that make a -- you know, does 18 the general accounting office, if they're going to 19 procure equipment for a federal building, is it going 20 to make a difference to them? 21 So, those are some of the nuances that I 22 worry about, you know, that this is suddenly becoming a

### Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Committee Meeting 08-26-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 175 1 marketing purchasing tool in the marketplace, maybe not 2 today, but 10 years down the road, 20 years down the 3 road, we're making some policy decisions, I think, that 4 can have a great impact, that can greatly affect the 5 marketplace based upon this website and, you know, how 6 different people are certifying and, well, we're 7 certifying all the same, apparently, but -- 8 MR. EISNER: Right now you're held to a 9 higher standard. Other are not. Are they selling 10 their product more easily than you are right now? Is 11 DOE and some of these other Departments, are they 12 buying the one that is not subject to the higher 13 testing standard than you are? 14 MS. MEYERS: So, the verification is 15 something new. Before, if you were in a verification 16 program, you were set apart. Now a verification 17 program will become, I guess, mandated, so now I think 18 it brings a different dynamic into the equation. 19 So, to me, if they're all certified the same, 20 they should be verified the same so that -- and if it's 21 going on this website and you're publishing ratings and 22 this rating, you know, they need to have similar

### Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Committee Meeting 08-26-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 176 1 characteristics or be comparable to each other. 2 MR. SACHS: Karen, this is Harvey, and I 3 appreciate that. I think you've actually touched on 4 two separate issues. One issue is new to this 5 discussion, I think, and that was, would the Department 6 of Defense or GSA care whether it was labeled as AHRI - 7 - certified and verified versus just being listed by 8 DoE? And there is, of course, even though it has some 9 controversy, precedent now that's pretty well 10 established in -- not just in the preferences for 11 Energy Star products and FEMP, but as perhaps a more 12 useful example, the requirements for federal 13 construction to move toward or utilize some green 14 building standard. 15 So, those are voluntary programs, but which 16 are favored in federal regulation for major purchases. 17 And I think that's part of the response to 18 this policy question you raised about would this matter 19 to major purchasers like the federal government, and 20 the answer is, it could. This is something that the 21 agencies have been instructed initially by executive 22 order, as I recall, and I think it's also in

### Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Committee Meeting 08-26-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 177 1 legislation now. 2 The second point you've raised is, my product 3 is AHRI certified and verified, and that has a bundle 4 of features to it, and for the last several days, an 5 image has been floating around occasionally in my mind 6 of two blue and white labels that sort of merge into 7 each other back and forth, and one of them is the AHRI 8 certified label, and the other is the Intel Inside 9 label. Both have the goal of using -- as I see it, and 10 I'm not inside AHRI or Intel, as I see it, the goal of 11 establishing a confidence in the consumer of the value 12 of a brand. It's just like Green Giant peas versus A&P 13 peas. And I'm having a little trouble understanding 14 why it would not be satisfactory, which was suggested 15 earlier, that the origin of the -- call it veracity of 16 a certified value listed in the DOE directory might not 17 be adequate to deal with that concern. It immediately 18 tells federal purchasers, this is the preferred 19 product, if that's what the executive order says. 20 That's just -- 21 MS. MEYERS: It's a great thought. I guess 22 I'm just fundamentally against taxpayer dollars being

### Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Committee Meeting 08-26-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 178 1 used to fund a government website to be used as a 2 marketing tool. But, I mean, it's something that we 3 could look at, but I just don't think that's, you know, 4 the right use of our time and money. 5 MR. BALLO: But it's not a marketing tool. I 6 mean, once you report the numbers to DoE, whatever you 7 certify at, those numbers are going to be publically 8 available and I don't think anything changes once 9 there's some sort of verification system in place 10 because it's not permissible for manufacturers to 11 actually claim anything about the -- about their 12 certification as an endorsement of the product. It's 13 just a number they supply to DoE. You can't say, "it's 14 DOE certified", as I understand it. That's -- that 15 would be a violation of the Federal Trade Act -- 16 Federal Trade Commission's statute. It's a misleading 17 claim. 18 MR. DOPPEL: Paul Doppel with Mitsubishi. 19 But, again, this becomes a de facto certification list 20 because if a manufacturer puts a number on that list, 21 you just made the assumption that it was certified and 22 everyone's going to make that assumption that if it's

### Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Committee Meeting 08-26-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 179 1 on that list, it's certified. 2 MR. BALLO: It has been certified. The 3 manufacturer has submitted a statement swearing that 4 that is the number to the Department, that's -- 5 MR. DOPPEL: But it's not verified. 6 MR. BALLO: But nothing at the website 7 indicates that the number has been verified. 8 MR. DOPPEL: Anything that was done by AHRI 9 has been verified. So, it's not the same. 10 MR. BALLO: Right. 11 MR. DOPPEL: It's not the same, but it's 12 being made the same, that's what she's saying, it's 13 being made the same. It's not equal. 14 MR. STEPHENS: Phillip Stephens, HTP. One of 15 the thoughts we did have during our breakout session 16 was a different website for self-certified products 17 versus the third-party certified products, both on the 18 DoE. 19 MR. BALLO: And I'm not opposed to that 20 because I can use Control-C and Control-V just as well 21 as anybody, but is that fair to the members who are not 22 in RE and who have, on their own, developed a very good

### Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Committee Meeting 08-26-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 180 1 verification program? I don't know. 2 MR. FERRIOL: This is Brian with UL. In our 3 breakout session, this issue, the DOE website and the 4 ratings showing on the website was a large topic of 5 discussion. Laura, is this a point that can be debated 6 and discussed, or is this a point where you must show 7 the ratings on the website? 8 MS. BARHYDT: I think at this point, we are 9 at a place where we are going to have to show the 10 ratings on the website. 11 MR. EISNER: Because of FOIA. 12 MS. BARHYDT: Because of FOIA and we also 13 were threatened with a lawsuit at one point, so between 14 the two of them, I think it's a certainty that we will 15 be publishing the information on the website. 16 MR. EISNER: Is there -- 17 MS. HOOTMAN: Who -- I wonder. 18 MR. EISNER: Could this group try to draft 19 language that went on the website that would satisfy 20 those who are concerned with the website implications 21 right now? 22 MS. MEYERS: Neil, I think the issue becomes

### Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Committee Meeting 08-26-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 181 1 that the verification -- we, at least in our group, 2 could not come up with common verification procedures, 3 so if all products have to go -- if we say all products 4 have to go through some type of third-party 5 verification process and the criteria for that 6 verification process is the same, whether it's AHRI, 7 whether it's a manufacturer self- certification, 8 whether it's UL, whatever, that's different, but we 9 couldn't get anywhere close to coming up with identical 10 criteria. 11 You know, some people view the AHRI program 12 as a Cadillac program. I don't actually view it like 13 that at all. I view it as the industry minimum of what 14 is required to make -- to keep the industry honest 15 after, you know, 50 years of experience, so we're not 16 spending all this extra money on extra certification 17 when it's not really needed. None of it says, you 18 know, people who have a PNL meter couldn't just spend 19 all this extra money if it's not really needed. 20 Now, there are some nuances. I understand 21 that we all have some product nuances that we have to 22 kind of go through, but I don't think it's fair for

### Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Committee Meeting 08-26-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 182 1 somebody's verification process to be much less 2 stringent than mine and they are shown equally and are 3 viewed equally on the DOE government website as being 4 the same. 5 MS. BARHYDT: Okay, so, just as a sort of 6 fundamental starting point, if we did not agree to some 7 sort of verification for everyone, the status quo is 8 going to be that there is no requirement for anyone to 9 have verification and what DOE puts on its website are 10 the ratings that are certified to the Department by the 11 manufacturer. And it's irrespective of whether they've 12 been verified or not by anyone at all. That is the DOE 13 certification to the -- that is the certification by 14 the manufacturer to DOE and is a listing of -- this is 15 what manufacturers told us, and the reality is that 16 you're participating in a program and that is not 17 reflected at all. It is, this is a list of what we 18 were given. 19 If we have some kind of a verification 20 program process, there would be some possibility to 21 say, this manufacturer certified this as part of this 22 program or that program or the other program because

### Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Committee Meeting 08-26-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 183 1 one of the things we talked about was if we did this, 2 manufacturers would have to tell DOE whose program they 3 were participating in, so it would be fairly 4 straightforward for us to just provide that additional 5 information. 6 And then people could make whatever 7 assumptions they wanted to about the meaning of those 8 different programs and whether they attach value and 9 significance to one program over another. But the base 10 concept is, people certify values to us and all we're 11 doing is we're passing along the information of, this 12 is what they told us and you're not getting any extra 13 credit right now if there is no verification from non14 participants. 15 So, I guess from my perspective, isn't it 16 better to have them subject to something than nothing? 17 So, that was one of the points I wanted to make. The 18 other one is that, I guess I'm viewing this in a 19 fundamentally different way than you are. You are 20 looking at it as, I go through this verification 21 program and I am AHRI certified and I have an AHRI seal 22 of approval and I have this meaning attached to being a

### Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Committee Meeting 08-26-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 184 1 participant in this program. 2 And the way I'm looking at what we're talking 3 about for DOE is much more like certification. All 4 manufacturers are required to do some initial testing 5 as a baseline to be able to certify that their products 6 meet this standard, and we're calling it verification 7 testing. You could call it anything, as far as I'm 8 concerned, you could call it "Recurrent Certification 9 Testing". I'm not seeing it as a program of getting 10 some seal of approval or some higher-level endorsement 11 like that. To me it's a -- this is just an extension 12 of the testing you already do for certification 13 testing, it's just a periodic check- in to make sure 14 that those certifications are still consistent. 15 And I guess fundamentally it sounds to me 16 like something different. And I think you see them as 17 that they should be the same thing, and to me, they 18 seem to be different things. 19 MR. DOPPEL: Paul Doppel with Mitsubishi. On 20 the residential side, how is that working? Because, I 21 mean, you would think that if there's a, I mean, that's 22 well-established, that certification program, that

### Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Committee Meeting 08-26-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 185 1 process, so, I mean, how is -- is DOE going to try to 2 do something similar with the commercial as they are 3 with the residential? 4 MS. BARHYDT: I'm not even sure what you're 5 asking, Paul. 6 MR. DOPPEL: Okay, there are a lot of 7 residential products that are out there now and 8 everybody has to certify. There's a process where AHRI 9 daily submits data, okay. Who is not -- what happens 10 to those who are not part of a voluntary program with 11 residential? That's what I'm saying. Okay, how is that 12 working? And then are you going to do something 13 similar with commercial? Or are you looking at 14 something totally different? 15 MS. BARHYDT: No, it would be similar. It's 16 just a dump of the data that we are given. These are 17 the values that manufacturers have certified to the 18 Department. 19 MR. DOPPEL: Okay, what about manufacturers 20 outside of AHRI? Are there other voluntary programs? 21 I know there's -- 22 MS. BARHYDT: I have no idea if there are

### Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Committee Meeting 08-26-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 186 1 other voluntary -- 2 MS. HOOTMAN: There's no verification -- 3 MS. BARHYDT: -- programs. But all 4 manufacturers are required to certify, and they do, and 5 we get data from many manufacturers who are not part of 6 AHRI, and all of that data is on our website. But I 7 don't think I'm answering your question. 8 MR. EISNER: Is there any verification 9 testing for residential products. 10 MS. BARHYDT: So, DOE does assessment 11 testing, same as we do for commercial, but I don't know 12 if that's what you're asking either. 13 MR. JOHNSON: Well, so, the only way those 14 non- AHRI members get checked is through your 15 assessment testing then. 16 MS. BARHYDT: And if they're Energy Star, 17 then maybe they get tested as part of Energy Star, 18 certainly there are consumers groups that also do 19 testing and they may be getting checked that way. But, 20 yeah, AHRI is the biggest verification program that I'm 21 aware of. 22 MR. AMRANE: I guess I'm going to try to

### Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Committee Meeting 08-26-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 187 1 answer your questions. This is Karim with AHRI. I 2 think it's the perception, and, you know, having a DOE 3 verified program without really the stringency that 4 exists today within the AHRI program that may give the 5 impression that everybody would be tested to the same 6 requirement would not be the case. And that's the 7 concern here. 8 MS. BARHYDT: Generally speaking, I don't 9 know that the general public is aware of what DOE's 10 testing requirements are to certify compliance. They 11 probably assume everything is tested, they probably 12 have never imagined what an ARM or an AEDM is. They 13 probably just assume that everything is tested and all 14 of those numbers come from real test data. And that's 15 not the fact. 16 We all know that there are ways that the 17 regulations permit you to make estimates. 18 At the end of the day, all that list of 19 numbers are is the representations made to the 20 government by the manufacturer, and if we have some 21 requirement to do continual testing on an ongoing basis 22 of a model instead of just at the very, very beginning

### Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Committee Meeting 08-26-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 188 1 before you introduce it into commerce, I don't see that 2 as a radical shift from the perspective of people going 3 to our website. It's not going to be a "this is DOE 4 certified", it's not going to say, "this is DOE 5 verified", it's just an ongoing testing requirement 6 that is as invisible to the general public as the 7 certification testing. 8 MR. DOPPEL: Paul Doppel with Mitsubishi. 9 But there is a huge scale difference because on the 10 residential market, you're talking maybe a couple 11 thousand dollars for a system on a decision, you know, 12 if a homeowner makes a decision on whether to use AHRI 13 or someone else. 14 But, on the commercial side, you could be 15 talking millions of dollars on one decision, so that is 16 a significant influence in the marketplace, and so I 17 think a different set of criteria need be in place for 18 this arena because it can have a significant impact. 19 MR. EISNER: Couldn't some make the argument 20 that $2000 for the individual is much more of an impact 21 than millions of dollars for a company? 22 MR. DOPPEL: I don't think so. It's --

### Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Committee Meeting 08-26-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 189 1 MS. MEYERS: This is Karen with Rheem. And, 2 you know, I could argue the point that people outside 3 this industry might put more value on being an Energy 4 Star partner versus being AHRI certified because Energy 5 Star is an EPA, government-run program, where really us 6 in the industry know that AHRI certified has great -- 7 you know, is a much stronger program. 8 So, that's kind of -- you know, when you get 9 to using, you know, government-type websites and it 10 will, in fact, as Paul said, become a de facto 11 certification database once it goes on that website, 12 and all products will be viewed as equal. 13 I don't know what the answer is yet, but this 14 is where I'm -- you know, I don't have an answer, wish 15 I did, because we didn't get very far in our breakout 16 session because we had, you know, three different 17 opposing views and we couldn't really find any way to 18 even get close to a step in the middle, but, you know, 19 we're all committed to continue to work on it, but it 20 is a very complicated issue. 21 MR. DOPPEL: For the commercial HVAC -- this 22 is Paul Doppel -- what we came to was we felt that

### Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Committee Meeting 08-26-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 190 1 anyone who was going to have their products listed on 2 the DOE website needed to be in a DAVP. That's theirs. 3 MR. BAUMAN: This is Jeff Bauman from 4 National. I think one of the things that we're -- when 5 you talk about DOE certified, it's manufacturer 6 certified, either you're manufacturer certified or 7 you're third-party certified by somebody. I still 8 think -- 9 MS. BARHYDT: So, I'm going to cut you off 10 right there real quick. You are always manufacturer 11 certified. 12 MR. BAUMAN: Right. 13 MS. BARHYDT: It may be submitted by a third14 party, but you are always manufacturer certified. 15 MR. BAUMAN: Okay, but currently if you're in 16 an AHRI program, AHRI is certifying -- 17 MS. BARHYDT: They're submitting. 18 MR. AMRANE: (Off microphone.) 19 MR. BAUMAN: Okay, but for you -- for AHRI's 20 separate listing, you have an AHRI certified listing 21 also separate from DOE. Okay. And, again, I don't 22 know the answer, but I've asked a couple people about -

### Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Committee Meeting 08-26-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 191 1 - and to me the issue becomes the -- as I referred to 2 before -- the shopping list of numbers and the concern 3 about comparing numbers that may have not been the same 4 level behind them. 5 I still think that there's a potential for 6 the DOE list to be a list of all manufacturers and 7 instead of a number next to that, necessarily, it says, 8 okay, this was certified and under what program. Was 9 it UL's program? Was it AHRI's program? Was it 10 manufacturer certified? And then somebody clicking on 11 that to go to a list of, okay, now I can compare all 12 the AHRI certified that were under the same program or 13 all the UL certified or all the manufacturer certified, 14 so now you're looking at apples to apples as far as how 15 people were certified. 16 If they want to go look at one that was 17 manufacturer certified versus under an AHRI program, 18 however the terminology comes, I think you can still 19 get to that, but I think that gives that segregation 20 between any meaningfulness in a separate program 21 outside of just the manufacturer program. It adds a 22 little bit of complication, but it seems like something

### Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Committee Meeting 08-26-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 192 1 along those lines is the only way to get to both 2 worlds. 3 MR. EISNER: If DOE were to conclude legally 4 that it had no authority, that it would be violating 5 things like the Regulatory Flexibility Act, to impose a 6 verification program meeting the standards of something 7 like -- a group like AHRI, would that mean many of you 8 in the room would then oppose this whole program? This 9 whole rulemaking that we've been working on? 10 MS. DANE: Say that again. 11 MR. EISNER: Assuming that DOE did a legal 12 analysis and concluded that it would be a violation of 13 the Regulatory Flexibility Act, that it could not 14 justify imposing standards as high as AHRI standards 15 because they didn't believe they were necessary under 16 the statute and therefore couldn't require AHRI-type 17 compliance, would many of you therefore be opposed to 18 the whole rulemaking proposal that we're drafting? 19 So, if DoE, by statute, was required to set 20 some standards for testing, but could not set 21 verification standards as AHRI, you would object to 22 this process even though DOE has to issue some rule?

### Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Committee Meeting 08-26-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 193 1 MR. AMRANE: I guess I will go first. It's 2 going to depend on the details of what DOE could do. 3 And, again, you're saying that, you know, not the AHRI 4 level, and we're not asking for the AHRI level, we're 5 asking for something that's comparable to the AHRI, so 6

-- 7 MR. EISNER: That's what I'm saying, they 8 can't do -- 9 MR. AMRANE: Then AHRI will not support. 10 MR. EISNER: And if DOE simply did away with 11 the verification program and did its own assessment 12 testing, with penalties attached to those who flunked 13 tests, you still would not support it? 14 MR. PETERSON: I think when you talk about 15 details, I mean, what type of testing? Is the testing 16 going to occur once every five years? I mean, exactly 17 what Karim said. I mean, how close to AHRI are we 18 talking about? Is it down here? 19 MR. EISNER: Again, you've got a system right 20 now where people aren't complying with AHRI standards, 21 so we're saying everything stays the same with the 22 proposal that we've already worked on except that DOE

### Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Committee Meeting 08-26-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 194 1 says, we don't have the authority or the ability to 2 write a verification part of the rule, but we will 3 continue to do our assessment testing at the same level 4 we've been doing it or to the extent that we have 5 budgetary resources, we'll go more or we'll go less. 6 But they don't have -- they don't add the 7 assessment portion to the rule. Just trying to 8 understand where we are right now on this issue. 9 MR. AMRANE: This is Karim with AHRI. I 10 think from an AHRI standpoint, we'll be better off 11 without having a DOE verification program than having a 12 watered down DOE verification program. 13 MR. EISNER: So, the rest of the rule will be 14 okay and DOE could continue its assessment program, 15 that would be acceptable? 16 MR. AMRANE: That's what's being done today. 17 It's fine. It can continue. 18 MR. EISNER: Well, it's more than the 19 assessment program or the verification program that 20 we've developed over the past few months. And that's 21 what I'm saying. Would what we've developed up until 22 this point be acceptable to everybody around the table

### Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Committee Meeting 08-26-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 195 1 if there were no verification program added at the end 2 of it? 3 MR. AMRANE: I think -- this is Karim -- I 4 think what we have agreed so far is the AEDM, I think 5 we support the AEDM. The basic model definition, I 6 think we support the basic model definition, and what 7 else did we agree to? The reporting? The reporting is 8 fine too. So, there, we have no problem with that, at 9 least with AHRI. 10 MR. KLEISS: Jeff Kleiss, Lochinvar. We do 11 support verification, but there is the problem of 12 posting something on the -- a website that could create 13 some confusion between the level of verification of the 14 product. 15 MR. EISNER: And I appreciate that and that's 16 why I asked earlier, if DOE believes it has a legal 17 requirement to post that information, is there a way 18 that we can all agree to describe the information on 19 the website so there will not be the confusion many of 20 you are concerned about? 21 Because if you can work out the language to 22 put on the website -- we're talking about sophisticated

### Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Committee Meeting 08-26-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 196 1 manufacturers, who it's been pointed out, are going to 2 be very careful about the way they spend $2 million, 3 versus $2,000 that the consumer is going to spend, that 4 sophisticated manufacturer who can make that kind of 5 distinction should be able to understand the right 6 language. 7 I'm not saying it's there now, but should be 8 able to understand what it is they're seeing on that 9 website and fully appreciate the difference between one 10 that is verified by one type of group and one that 11 might be verified by another type of group. So, can we 12 work on that kind of language or is there no path down 13 that road either? 14 MR. HON: This is Charlie Hon. What we -- 15 what people are ignoring is the fact that this is still 16 going to be posted. If there is zero verification 17 programs, there is still going to be a website that has 18 every bit of the data posted. 19 So, de facto, it's in print. And it is 20 accessible by anyone who chooses to find it. So, are 21 you willing to accept that with no verification 22 program?

### Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Committee Meeting 08-26-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 197 1 MR. EISNER: So, any thoughts on how we 2 describe the information that's available on the 3 website? 4 MS. MEYERS: Don't put the data on the 5 website; don't put the writings on the website. 6 MR. EISNER: I'm asking you to make the 7 assumption -- I'm asking you to make the assumption, 8 which Laura has voiced, that DOE has determined it 9 doesn't have the legal authority to not put it on the 10 website. So, if that is true, if they're accurate in 11 their description of it, is there language that would 12 work, that would help, or at least be better than 13 having them simply post it as they're doing now? 14 MR. STARR: This is Louis Starr with NEEA. 15 Is a pass/fail for the ones that don't go through a 16 certified program, would that be an option? So, in 17 other words, if you go through a certification program 18 you get a number, if you don't go through one, you just 19 get pass/fail. I don't know if that's a good solution, 20 but -- 21 MR. BALLO: The numbers are out there. The 22 numbers are -- cannot go away. They're FOIA-able and

### Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Committee Meeting 08-26-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 198 1 if the website was taken down, I mean, I think you 2 would see people just FOIAing DOE for the numbers and 3 making their own website, that would just be then 4 potentially out of date and misleading to consumers, 5 but if that's really what you would rather have -- 6 MR. STARR: Well, I was just thinking the 7 advantage would be is that it prevents the marketing 8 aspect of things, but then you are actually getting 9 things tested so you really know if the numbers that 10 are being put up as certifications are actually -- do 11 they really meet those numbers, so you kind of would 12 get the best -- well, not the best, you would get 13 something. 14 MR. DOPPEL: Paul Doppel with Mitsubishi. 15 Having information in a column way to the right is 16 never going to be seen, but if there were two distinct 17 lists that list -- the first list would be products 18 that are covered by voluntary verification program, and 19 then the second list would be products that were not 20 part of a voluntary program. 21 MR. EISNER: That's an important point. Tim 22 has pointed out, and I'm sure you heard it, he can

### Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Committee Meeting 08-26-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 199 1 merge the two into one chart if he wants. But if 2 you're willing to accept that, I think Laura would 3 probably say DOE could accept it. 4 MR. MYERS: This is Frank Meyers. I had 5 proposed for the boiler and water heater group adjacent 6 to the efficiency, whatever the efficiency was for each 7 basic model, there would be a notation, obviously in 8 code, but the requirements for becoming -- would 9 establish a requirement for becoming a DOE -- I 10 apologize, I'm reading the wrong spot -- "Efficiency 11 claim provided and verified by DOE-recognized 12 verification program" for those that had done that, and 13 then for those that were not in a DOE-recognized 14 verification program, efficiency provided by 15 manufacturer, very clear, all of which would have 16 whatever the minimum requirement would be, we just 17 wouldn't talk about that, so it was crystal clear, 18 model by model, that the efficiency had been provided 19 by the manufacturer, and then for those that came 20 through a VICP program type, efficiency claim provided 21 and verified by DOE-recognized verification program. 22 But at least during our meeting, that was not

### Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Committee Meeting 08-26-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 200 1 deemed to be acceptable. There was a little bit more 2 acceptance of taking those two groups and separating 3 them into two websites where you had to look at them 4 separately, but that was not agreed to either. 5 MR. EISNER: Laura, two lists? 6 MS. BARHYDT: So, I guess what I'm struggling 7 with is that it sounds like there is then two levels of 8 DOE recognition of verification programs. There's the 9 people who are doing the minimum DOE approved 10 verification, and then there are the people who are 11 doing something more, and it's not clear to me how we 12 get to those two levels, and it's not clear to me how 13 we set what those two levels are. 14 MR. HON: This is Charlie Hon. I have a 15 question. We don't even know where those fall, because 16 we can we cannot compare at this time any approved 17 program to any proposal we have because we don't know 18 what the percentages are going to come out. 19 MS. BARHYDT: It's not the percentages that 20 I'm going to come out with; it's the percentages we are 21 going to come out with. 22 MR. DOPPEL: This is Paul Doppel with

### Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Committee Meeting 08-26-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 201 1 Mitsubishi. It just seems, you know, getting on the 2 DOE list is elevating whatever manufacturers to a 3 certain status and in order to do that if they're not a 4 part of a voluntary program already, then they should 5 submit third- party verification in order to get on the 6 list. 7 MS. BARHYDT: So the way you get on the DOE 8 list is you comply with the fundamental basic minimum 9 requirement to do a very small amount of certification 10 testing and submit your paperwork to DOE. I mean, 11 that's all it is. It's a list of people who have 12 complied with the minimum requirements to distribute 13 products in the United States. That's all it is. 14 MR. DOPPEL: But there's no third-party 15 verification. 16 MS. BARHYDT: Right now, no. Right now all 17 there is is a requirement for a manufacturer to conduct 18 two tests of a basic model and send in an Excel 19 spreadsheet that says here's my name, my model number, 20 and my efficiency. 21 MS. DANE: Mary from Traulsen. I think we 22 can get there if we work on the language. It seems to

### Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Committee Meeting 08-26-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 202 1 be -- I can speak for all of CRE, but we don't have a 2 problem with the way the website is worded now. You 3 know, we want to be careful because we want to leave 4 the certification piece as being the manufacturer 5 submitting the data. We don't want to go through a 6 third-party certifier to certify our data. You know, 7 we're happy to talk about a verification program 8 whether we have one or not, but we want to keep it 9 simple at the beginning because my understanding is, in 10 order to place it in commerce; it would have to meet 11 the minimum standard anyway. So, I'm confused on what 12 the issue is. 13 You know, whether the number's on there or 14 the number's not on there. I don't think it matters to 15 us. As I say, I can't speak for all of CRE, but I don't 16 want to derail -- we've come this far and spent all of 17 this time in this room, and I don't want to see it get 18 derailed over this. 19 MS. BARHYDT: So one other point about -- 20 Paul was raising the issue of being on the list has 21 some meaning. It does have some meaning. If you're 22 not on the list, you're not supposed to be distributing

### Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Committee Meeting 08-26-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 203 1 in commerce in the United States. I mean, that's all 2 that list means. 3 If you're not on the list, you haven't met 4 even the most basic fundamental minimum requirements to 5 sell your product in the United States. 6 MR. SACHS: Laura, this is Harvey. I 7 generally think that AHRI is taking a fairly extreme 8 position about value. But on the other hand, that list 9 does say more than you are legal to sell that product 10 in the U.S., it explicitly says you have certified the 11 efficiency rating. Now, having established that point, 12 I want us all to step back for just a second and try to 13 remember that at the same time this is going on, for 14 some of these products is growing recognition that the 15 DOE standards are only one of a number of indicators 16 that are important to -- call it a sophisticated 17 purchaser, that the suite of feature as well as the 18 entire performance map are increasingly important. 19 So, this has symbolic value in the market, 20 but at the same time what we're doing here about 21 compliance is supplemented in the market by huge 22 efforts by the manufacturers, the designers they work

### Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Committee Meeting 08-26-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 204 1 with, to enrich the sales environment and the choice 2 environment with vastly more data than DOE can be 3 concerned with. So, I'm having a little bit of trouble 4 seeing this particular aspect of what single number is 5 on the list as being a life or death issue as we move 6 forward in the development of the industry of this 7 country. 8 I could be wrong. 9 MR. JOHNSON: Laura, Tom Johnson. It gives 10 them a credible entry into the marketplace at least for 11 a while, and with no verification. And, one of my 12 questions would be: how many and how fast can you do 13 challenge testing? 14 Because that's the only way to find out if 15 they're credible or not. I see DOE getting overwhelmed 16 with that. 17 MS. BARHYDT: AHRI also volunteered. 18 MR. SACHS: This is Harvey again and just one 19 other note on that. In the real world we inhabit, we 20 have certainly seen manufacturers entering the market 21 with innovative products that sometimes were certified. 22 I can think of one case where they were certified in a

### Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Committee Meeting 08-26-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 205 1 rather bogus manner and those companies did fail. 2 No matter what we do in this room, some 3 purchasers are going to get burned and it will tar the 4 reputation of the industry we all love. It's going to 5 happen and we can't make this totally failure proof and 6 we all worry about it. We can't make it perfect and 7 still keep commerce moving. 8 End of rant. 9 MR. JOHNSON: We have a credible program 10 today and we'd like to leave it that way. And we'd 11 rather just bring everybody else back up to that. 12 MR. WHITWELL: I think your comment is 13 specifically to commercial HVAC, right? I mean, it 14 could be different for other product categories, but 15 for commercial HVAC we want to have a level playing 16 field. 17 MS. DANE: Thanks Bob. I think we could 18 probably agree with that, because if you look at the 19 number of members who are certifying -- the number of 20 CRE people certifying through AHRI, there's only one 21 and the rest of us have a different plan that we'd like 22 to talk about.

### Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Committee Meeting 08-26-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 206 1 MR. WHITWELL: Right, yeah. For commercial 2 HVAC it's more like 90 percent or so are already in the 3 program, so -- 4 MR. DOPPEL: This is Paul Doppel with 5 Mitsubishi. I think mostly HVAC folks would be along 6 the same lines as Bob and I, that programs should be 7 different between us and yours. Just like we're 8 different sides of the table. 9 MR. AMRANE: This is Karim with AHRI. The 10 CRE program is different at AHRI versus the HVAC 11 program. In fact, what was discussed in the CRE group 12 is more stringent than what the AHRI program has, so I 13 have no problem. You can become the Cadillac program. 14 MS. DANE: Mercedes. 15 MR. AMRANE: Mercedes. 16 MS. BARHYDT: So we have about 40 minutes 17 left. Would CRE like to talk about what you all talked 18 about? 19 MS. DANE: Basically, we had talked the fact 20 that we understand that probably no verification is not 21 the most optimum way to go. But we do agree that there 22 are different sizes of businesses and types of

### Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Committee Meeting 08-26-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 207 1 businesses within our industry. And that, I know, 2 there was a question asked about where you break off 3 small and large, medium manufacturing sizes. I think 4 when we talked about the different levels, one of the 5 things that was very important to us was to know how 6 you made up the basic model groups and if the testing 7 stayed into both a minimum and maximum amount of models 8 that could be tested by manufacturer, we could come to 9 a number. 10 I think the other thing we added on to that 11 was if we could stay closer to the minimum if there 12 were no failures. And then, if we went on and found 13 failures, that the numbers would increase for a certain 14 amount of time until established what that was and then 15 you would be allowed to move back down to the minimum, 16 but that would never be zero. Thereby, we would make 17 DOE happy and we would be happy also. 18 And I think those numbers that Karim was 19 talking about would be the maximum we would see, as a 20 one to two minimum, depending on the size and then two 21 to four, but before I agree to that I want to make sure 22 that it's, you know, the product categories and

### Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Committee Meeting 08-26-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 208 1 everything lines up there. But we did move on greater 2 than zero. 3 Secondly, then we talked about procurement 4 and we would say that the DOE should be doing the 5 choosing of them, but they can reserve the right to 6 have the third- party, if there's one involved, that 7 can designate that group to pick for them. And beyond 8 that I don't think we got much further. 9 MR. HON: We also discussed the fact we would 10 probably put in -- probably 50 percent additional for a 11 large company compared to a small company, because 12 there are some economies of scale that are involved 13 there. So the larger companies would have to test a 14 percentage more compared to base model and we believed 15 that was somewhat fair and equitable, because small 16 companies may only be producing a hundred of one type 17 or we may be producing a thousand of that same type. 18 MS. BARHYDT: It sounds like you all made 19 progress. Given that you all did make some progress, 20 would you all be interested in continuing to work 21 through the various questions, possibly tomorrow 22 morning to come up with a more fulsome proposal for

### Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Committee Meeting 08-26-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 209 1 CRE? 2 MS. DANE: Yes, I think we can do that. 3 MR. HON: Yes. 4 MS. BARHYDT: And I know we heard that there 5 was stalemate in the boiler-water heater, and HVAC's 6 talked a little about what you've talked about, but can 7 you all expand a little bit more about where you all 8 are? Jill? 9 MS. HOOTMAN: Jill Hootman from Trane. I 10 think what we said, first of all, a little bit of what 11 was back and forth there, that the overall majority of 12 commercial HVAC manufacturers, we feel that's 90 13 percent or greater, participate in a VICP. Therefore, 14 for commercial HVAC, the OEM should participate in a 15 DAVP and those programs have these requirements. And 16 it was those requirements that we had from the meeting 17 -- I mean, I can give this to you, but I won't go -- we 18 didn't change -- 19 MS. BARHYDT: The ones we had -- 20 MS. HOOTMAN: Right. I didn't change 21 anything about those or anything like it. 22 MS. BARHYDT: (Off microphone.)

### Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Committee Meeting 08-26-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 210 1 MS. HOOTMAN: Yeah. So I didn't change 2 anything about those. I think that was it, right guys? 3 MR. FLY: This is Mark Fly from AAON. A 4 couple things we talked about during that meeting was, 5 I think most of the people in that group were 6 uncomfortable with self-certification without some 7 independent oversight in selection and review of test 8 data. And then, we kind of got hung up on what to do 9 with whatever we want to call customs engineered-to10 order, one-offs, however we're going to define that 11 term -- 12 MS. HOOTMAN: Yeah, we didn't come to any 13 agreement on that one. 14 MR. FLY: And how do you define that term to 15 avoid anyone being able to take advantage of it. But 16 there are people out there who build engineered-to17 order products, which probably make up a good part of 18 that ten percent of the market not covered by AHRI. 19 That build one at a time and engineered one at a time 20 and we came up with no solution to that, I think is a 21 fair assessment. 22 MR. HON: I have a question. I keep hearing

### Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Committee Meeting 08-26-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 211 1 people say 10 percent of the market. Is this 10 2 percent of the units sold or ten percent of the 3 manufacturers in the market? 4 MS. HOOTMAN: It would be more on the units 5 sold, but in all honestly, we know numbers through 6 AHRI, because of course, we're all reporting dollars 7 and things like that. I mean, these numbers come more 8 from -- in my career, I've done a lot of market 9 analysis and worked a lot with Wall Street and some of 10 those kinds of things, and what they estimate our 11 market to be, you know, within plus or minus ten 12 percent. 13 Yeah, it's more in the dollar revenue -- 14 MR. HON: Dollar revenue -- 15 MS. HOOTMAN: Yeah. 16 MR. HON: Okay, which has some direct 17 relationship to units. 18 MS. HOOTMAN: Right, right. And the amount 19 of manufacturers in that space are much, much smaller. 20 MS. BARHYDT: So do you all want to meet in 21 the morning to discuss how to deal with the small 22 custom?

### Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Committee Meeting 08-26-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 212 1 MS. HOOTMAN: We can. 2 MS. BARHYDT: And for the ones that aren't 3 built-to-order or custom, was there agreement in the 4 group to set the levels at the AHRI levels? The 5 testing rates? 6 UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: Yes. 7 MS. HOOTMAN: Yes 8 MS. BARHYDT: Okay, so as long as it's built 9 to stock the inventory products there was agreement on 10 those levels. 11 MR. FLY: This is Mark Fly with AAON. I 12 think we agreed to no less than 20 percent of basic 13 model groups if we adopt the basic models groups as 14 defined by AHRI. 15 MS. BARHYDT: By AHRI. Okay. 16 MR. FERRIOL: This is Brian with UL. Just a 17 point of clarification. I think in this -- I thought 18 one of the product categories that we were discussing 19 at AHRI had a 30 percent selection rate, correct? And 20 we were saying we were going to set 20 percent as a 21 starting point. 22 MR. WHITWELL: Yes, today some product

### Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Committee Meeting 08-26-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 213 1 segments are at 30, most are at 20. 2 MR. FERRIOL: So in other words, Brian with 3 AH -- UL, in other words -- 4 Sorry. I've worked there, too. I think -- 5 just a clarification point. When we say it's not 6 entirely true to say set the requirements at the same 7 levels as AHRI. That was my point. 8 MR. MYERS: This is Frank Myers, PVI. 9 Something I might toss out on the table for the working 10 groups that might be struggling with build-to-order, 11 engineered-to- order, another phrase was brought up in 12 our group. We didn't settle on anything other than we 13 felt like that was a variable that we could discuss, 14 was commissioned versus non-commissioned. 15 Just another one to put in the idea pool to 16 think about it it's too difficult to do build-to-order 17 or engineered-to-order. 18 MS. BARHYDT: Okay, so HVAC will start out 19 the morning talking about how to deal with some of the 20 products you haven't reached agreement on. 21 Okay, what do the boiler-water heater folks 22 want to do?

### Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Committee Meeting 08-26-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 214 1 (Off microphone discussion.) 2 MS. HOOTMAN: So maybe if you all meet over 3 some alcohol tonight things might get a little better. 4 MR. KLEISS: Jeff Kleiss, Lochinvar. One of 5 the suggestions that was made in the back room was that 6 we each write out our own proposals and bring them in. 7 MS. BARHYDT: So if you all are amenable to 8 that proposal, do you all want to start out the morning 9 in a small group just working through your various 10 proposals? 11 MR. EISNER: If you're going to do something 12 like that based on your discussions, could you come up 13 with a common list and then have whatever added or 14 subtractions different ones want or do you want to each 15 come in with a completely separate sheet of paper? 16 MR. SACHS: Do you mean a common list for 17 boilers, a common list for -- 18 MR. EISNER: No, I thought I heard Jeff say - 19

- 20 MR. SACHS: Okay. 21 MR. EISNER: -- that each of them wants to 22 come up with their own proposal and what I'm asking is,

### Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Committee Meeting 08-26-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 215 1 would it be possible to say these five items we all 2 want and then here are separate parts that we either 3 want to add or subtract. It doesn't look promising, 4 huh? 5 MR. STEPHENS: Phillip Stephens, HTP. I 6 think that was the intent. 7 MR. EISNER: Okay. 8 MR. STEPHENS: So what we can do is tomorrow 9 we can get together and go through each person's list 10 and maybe give an Excel sheet of what it is. You'll 11 see some have more information than others and some 12 will just say no. So -- 13 MS. BARHYDT: Did the meeting space today 14 work for you or would you like me to see what I can do 15 about getting additional rooms? I got one thumbs up. 16 MS. HOOTMAN: It was hard up there -- 17 MR. WHITWELL: Yeah it was hard. 18 MR. AMRANE: Yeah, we would request one more 19 room. 20 MS. BARHYDT: So if I could get one more 21 room, okay. I will see what I can do and I will let 22 you know in the morning.

### Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Committee Meeting 08-26-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 216 1 (Off microphone discussion.) 2 MR. SACHS: Laura, I can check if the ACEEE 3 room is available, we can exile all of the commercial 4 HVAC people -- 5 MS. HOOTMAN: Yeah, we love that room so much 6

-- 7 MR. EISNER: Some of you can come in at 5 in 8 the morning and use this room. If it helps. 9 (Off microphone discussion.) 10 MS. BARHYDT: Okay, so it sounds like we have 11 a plan for how to proceed in the morning. 12 UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: What time? 13 MS. BARHYDT: 8:30. 14 (Off microphone discussion.) 15 MR. WHITWELL: So how long do we meet 16 tomorrow morning in our groups? 17 MS. BARHYDT: Do you all want one hour? Hour 18 and a half? 19 UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: One hour and then 20 check in. 21 MS. BARHYDT: One hour and then check in. So 22 if everybody will come here at 8:30, I will let you

### Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Committee Meeting 08-26-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 217 1 know where the rooms are, because it's going to take me 2 a little bit of time to confirm a room in the morning. 3 The room people aren't still here. 4 MR. SACHS: Laura, can those of us who aren't 5 in one of those groups be excused from first period? 6 MR. WHITWELL: We will have a separate room 7 for you. 8 MR. SACHS: With padding. 9 MR. DOPPEL: Harvey we're requesting that you 10 participate with us. 11 MR. SACHS: Done. 12 MR. EISNER: All right. Any other issues 13 that we want to talk about? At least start discussion 14 on to get people thinking about? Anybody have anything 15 they want to raise? 16 MR. AMRANE: This is Karim with AHRI. Just a 17 question about when are we going to be talking about 18 the effective dates, during those three days? 19 MS. BARHYDT: We can talk about it tomorrow, 20 we can talk about it Wednesday? Is everybody ready to 21 talk about it? 22 MR. AMRANE: I think so. I think we had a

### Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Committee Meeting 08-26-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 218 1 proposal last time. 2 MS. BARHYDT: Everybody ready to vote on the 3 proposal from last time about the effective dates? 4 (Yeses.) 5 MS. BARHYDT: I thought there still was some 6 CRE fleshing out going on. You're ready? 7 MR. HON: Yes, we had meetings on it. 8 MS. BARHYDT: Okay. 9 MR. MYERS: This is Frank Myers. Is it going 10 to be put up on the screen before we vote? 11 MS. BARHYDT: We can put it up on the screen 12 before we vote. 13 MR. MYERS: Good. I think we has resolution, 14 but I'm not certain. 15 MR. EISNER: Do we want to do that now? 16 We've got 25 minutes left. 17 (Pause.) 18 MS. BARHYDT: Does anyone have that slide? 19 Somebody else brought in that proposal last time and I 20 think it -- 21 MR. AMRANE: It was Rusty. 22 MS. HOOTMAN: It was Rusty.

### Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Committee Meeting 08-26-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 219 1 MS. BARHYDT: Rusty, if you're still on the 2 phone can you put that on the share point? 3 Is it on share point? 4 MR. WHITWELL: I looked earlier and didn't 5 see it. 6 MR. THARP: Rusty's still on the phone. I'm 7 sorry, what am I supposed to put on the share point? 8 MS. BARHYDT: You had the proposed timetable 9 for when the various certification requirements would 10 kick in. 11 MR. THARP: Yes, I can -- I guess I can put 12 it on there, if not I'll e-mail it to you. 13 MS. BARHYDT: Okay. 14 MR. THARP: I've downloaded stuff; I've just 15 never added anything to it. 16 MS. BARHYDT: Okay, we'll put it up on the 17 screen first thing in the morning. 18 MR. THARP: Okay. Are the HVAC manufacturers 19 still in the room? 20 MS. HOOTMAN: Yes. 21 MR. WHITWELL: Yes. 22 MR. THARP: Can we use my teleconference

### Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Committee Meeting 08-26-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 220 1 number for tomorrow morning and allow me to 2 participate? 3 MS. HOOTMAN: Oh yeah. Good idea. Send it 4 to me again Rusty, Jill. And we'll do that. 5 MR. THARP: Okay. 6 MS. HOOTMAN: We'll do that through the 7 cellphone like you guys did with me or whatever. 8 MR. THARP: Okay, that will be great. I'll 9 e- mail it to you guys again. 10 MS. HOOTMAN: Thanks. 11 MR. THARP: Thank you. Goodbye all. 12 MS. BARHYDT: Goodbye Rusty. 13 MR. EISNER: Anything else anybody else wants 14 to raise or remind people of that we've got to cover? 15 (No response.) 16 MR. EISNER: Okay. 17 MS. BARHYDT: Okay. Thank you all. 18 (Whereupon, at 5:37 p.m., the Appliance 19 Standards and Rulemaking Federal Advisory 20 Committee Meeting was concluded.) 21 22

### Capital Reporting Company Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Committee Meeting 08-26-2013

1 CERTIFICATE OF COURT REPORTER 2 I, CHRISTINE ALLEN, the Court Reporter before 3 whom the foregoing proceeding was taken, do hereby 4 certify that the proceeding was recorded by me; that 5 the proceeding was thereafter reduced to typewriting 6 under my direction; that said transcript is a true and 7 accurate record of the proceeding; that I am neither 8 related to nor employed b y any of the parties to this 9 proceeding; and, further, that I have no financial 10 interest in this proceeding. 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22

## ~\Ul(~ C H R I S Ti NE AL Li N Digital Court Reporter



### (866) 448 - DEPO www .CapitalReportingCompany.com © 

### 2013 221

### Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Committee Meeting 08-26-2013 Page 1

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 $ $2 196:2 $2,000 196:3 $2000 188:20 $8 25:21 30:11 1 1,000 61:11 1:00 130:5 10 74:17 91:4 113:21 141:2 175:2 211:1 10:03 1:13 100 15:13 54:3 61:10 102:3 100,000 76:21,22 1000 1:7 10-minute73:13 90:18 12 133:8 128 167:13 13 89:8 135,000 68:3 14 114:2 150 71:3,4 15-ton 147:20 16 89:10,11 16025 51:15 17025 30:17 32:12,16 35:6 37:18 41:7 44:6 51:20,21 55:14 17065 30:14 44:9,14 51:18 18 158:2 184-frame159:7 2 2 5:8 88:16 2,500 30:11 96:13 2.5 5:21 104:13 2:27 144:15 20 27:13 28:10,14,20,22 29:4 60:2 61:3 63:20 81:19 82:10 116:4 132:5 175:2 212:12,20 213:1 2000 69:13 2013 1:12 136:18 2014 44:15 20585 1:10 25 218:16 26 1:12 27 136:22 3 3 84:8 85:7 133:7 3:00 169:21 170:11 3:30 144:13 3:57 144:16 30 61:3 63:21 82:10 212:19 213:1 30-day72:16 38 50:1 39 30:5 50:1 4 4 61:12 84:8 135:12 4,000 70:2

40 61:12 63:21 206:16 400 30:10 48 161:6,13 5 5 5:21 68:18 88:16 133:8,11 135:12 216:7 5:37 220:18 50 42:12,13 85:21 95:1,6,12 132:17 161:13,19 181:15 208:10 500 34:18 50-page 112:13 50-plus 116:17 56 12:17 159:6 161:7 167:20 58 147:2 149:9 164:20 6 6:00 144:21 60 67:16 65 43:4,5,10,12,14 44:6,17 7 7-31 136:18 8 8 135:11 8:30 216:13,22 89.5 171:5 8E-089 1:9 9

90 172:10 206:2 209:12 A A&P177:12 a.m1:13 AAON 2:19 210:3 212:11 abide 42:10 ability 32:2 82:9 194:1 able 6:11 8:20 9:5,21,22 27:20 29:16 36:21 68:19 69:2 125:11,15 151:22 158:15 165:18 166:13 169:22 184:5 196:5,8 210:15 ABM61:5 ABMA2:21 16:5 100:1 aboveboard 15:14 18:8 absent128:15 absolutely 45:22 46:12 80:15 82:1,4,8 110:3 111:20 153:2 absorb 98:8 AC 121:2 ACB 140:10 accept11:22 41:21 196:21 199:2,3 acceptable 59:9 194:15,22 200:1

### Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Committee Meeting 08-26-2013 Page 2

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 acceptance46:17 200:2 accepted 13:1 accepting 15:15 26:22 accepts 63:20 accessible 196:20 accomplish 164:13 accordance 174:10 according 150:9 155:14 162:4 accountants 48:10 accounting 174:18 accreditation 37:19,20 39:14 44:9,22 accreditations 30:13 accredited 30:15 32:16 41:7 44:5 accurate39:21 42:9,18 86:15 197:10 221:7 accurately32:7 51:7 ACEEE 10:8 26:18 103:6 216:2 across 6:14 90:14 102:18 ACs 30:9 Act120:14 178:15 192:5,13 action 74:18,19 100:5 actual91:21 121:7 128:22 136:6,9 actually7:1 9:11 17:16 34:20 35:10 44:13 46:16 47:13 54:13 55:3,4,8 63:7 86:22 89:10 98:7 107:2 109:12 122:4,21 124:20 129:13 133:18 144:21 150:2 159:7,13,18 170:17 171:4 176:3 178:11 181:12 198:8,10 add 84:19 194:6 215:3 added 22:15 40:6 195:1 207:10 214:13 219:15 additional5:14 8:19 17:17,22 22:2,19,22 35:22 43:8 142:18 183:4 208:10 215:15 address 69:18 119:12 169:18 addressing 137:2 adds 191:21 adept49:3 adequate 92:21 133:2 177:17 adjacent199:5 adjectives 49:21 admittedly22:17 adopt26:3 31:12 212:13 advance 70:20 71:1 advantage 116:9,11,16 174:4 198:7 210:15 advertise 64:3 advertised 89:10,19 advisory1:4 46:13 220:19 advocate 40:21 AEDM90:11,12 187:12 195:4,5 AEDMs 41:3 90:10 Affairs 2:20 affect163:4 175:4 affected 28:3 affecting 26:11 affects 163:8 afford 27:10 28:6 affordable 59:22 60:6,15 61:1 64:2 afternoon 6:12 90:21 against5:22 99:7 177:22 agencies 176:21 agency115:12,18 126:4 agenda 131:10 agent34:1,6,7 35:4 36:9 88:6 ago 6:6 55:3 84:6 136:16 agreed 28:22 134:18 195:4 200:4 212:12

agreement

5:22 91:21 124:14 127:13 172:13 210:13 212:3,9 213:20 AH213:3 ahead 79:17,20 141:12 159:1 167:18,19 AHRI 2:15 4:6 5:10 15:22 17:10 24:1 25:18 26:11,20,21 27:9 28:6,8,9,12 29:5,12,15 30:5,15 33:8,9,13 34:3,6,8 35:1,4 36:9,18,20,22 37:2,9,10,15 38:14 39:3,10 40:10,14 41:16 42:22 44:20 45:1,19 47:3,5,8 49:4,8,10,16 50:15 51:4 52:4 53:16 56:11 57:15,22 58:9,18 59:3 63:18,20 65:5 67:3 68:13,17,21 69:6 75:9 80:1,4,17 81:9 82:8 85:11 86:1 88:6 90:3 92:11 94:6,7,9,17,18,1 9,20 96:5 100:3 107:16 109:3,16 111:18 114:4,5,17,21,22 115:1,2,3,4,8,10 116:3,11 119:19

### Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Committee Meeting 08-26-2013 Page 3

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 120:4 122:7,8,12 123:14 124:6,15 125:5,14,17,20 126:4 129:6,14 132:5,14,16 134:11,15 135:7,10 143:20 156:5,17 157:10 166:22 167:5 176:6 177:3,7,10 179:8 181:6,11 183:21 185:8,20 186:6,14,20 187:1,4 188:12 189:4,6 190:16,20 191:12,17 192:7,14,21 193:3,4,5,9,17,2 0 194:9,10 195:9 203:7 204:17 205:20 206:9,10,12 210:18 211:6 212:4,14,15,19 213:7 217:16 AHRI's 27:7,19 29:7 30:7 38:20 44:21 55:12 57:9 69:3 79:4 80:11 113:11 114:10 126:12,14 190:19 191:9 AHRI-trained 38:5 AHRI-type 192:16 air13:19,22 47:16 89:8 106:6 126:15 150:3,10,13,19 151:8 153:15 154:2,5,6,11,12, 17 156:10 162:18 163:2,6,7,12,13, 17,18,20,21,22 164:3,5,9 166:17,18 167:2 169:1 air-conditioner 47:13,16 68:2 Air-Conditioning 2:10,14 airflow 59:18 60:12 61:15,16 air-over12:9 13:12,22 14:2,5,9 air-overs 11:13 alcohol214:3 aligned 136:2 alike 117:17 Allen 1:17 221:2,15 allow 43:8 93:9 147:7 153:20 220:1 allowed 55:14 60:22 207:15 allows 55:13 59:21 75:7 122:11 alluding 42:7 already17:11 19:20 21:14,16,20 22:3 25:20 26:2,3 27:1 30:2 63:18 70:19 76:15 100:21 110:8 152:20,21 153:3 184:12 193:22 201:4 206:2 alternative 15:18

am26:9,12 41:19 57:15 124:2 131:3 183:21 219:7 221:7 amazing104:7 amenable 29:13 138:9 214:7 amend158:7 Amending 158:11 American3:11,20 amount22:6 108:12 114:16,17 130:14 131:8 201:9 207:7,14 211:18 Amrane2:10 8:13 15:22 24:1 26:20 28:8 69:5,16 82:14 86:1,5 90:3 94:17 95:18 96:4,10 107:16 108:3 109:14 110:3,7 117:11 125:5 132:16 134:15 138:14 166:22 167:4 186:22 190:18 193:1,9 194:9,16 195:3 206:9,15 215:18 217:16,22 218:21 analysis 19:1 20:19 132:10 135:7 192:12 211:9 analytical 132:13 analytically 132:9 annual 61:4 74:20 76:1 80:7 93:14 answer 15:12 59:2 85:2 109:13 112:19 125:4 137:4 152:10 157:19,20 166:16 169:22 170:10 176:20 187:1 189:13,14 190:22 answered 55:21 answering186:7 answer's 12:4 52:5 anybody 14:13 15:12 91:7,13 105:15 130:9 173:2 179:21 217:14 220:13 Anyhow 8:12 anyone 75:3 110:19 119:19 123:3 167:1 172:22 182:8,12 190:1 196:20 210:15 218:18 anything 16:13 19:5 25:9 27:7 40:22 69:14 89:3 90:6 91:10 99:2 111:15 115:22 117:17 170:20 172:1 178:8,11 179:8 184:7 209:21 210:2 213:12 217:14 219:15 220:13 anyway 77:15 138:15 169:1 202:11 anywhere92:18

### Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Committee Meeting 08-26-2013 Page 4

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 181:9 A-okay45:4 apart115:3 122:7 175:16 apologize 83:4 199:10 apparently 144:9 175:7 appeal 80:19 appear174:3 apples 191:14 Appliance1:3 94:5 220:18 applicable 68:22 69:13 152:20 application 12:19 147:8 168:7 applications 13:21 156:8 158:8 applied 108:13 162:15 applies 120:3 apply 14:4 69:7 100:7 125:7 146:13 151:11 154:11 166:13 appreciate 26:8 145:12 176:3 195:15 196:9 approach 9:10 125:16 128:4 approached 47:3 97:3 98:3 appropriate 14:17 23:14 134:8 approval 183:22 184:10 approved 16:21 34:14 111:16 200:9,16 arbitrariness 104:15 area6:4 10:12 46:18 63:2 72:18,19 73:2,5 areas 104:18 135:22 136:3 arena46:18 188:18 aren't68:22 104:22 111:22 136:2 193:20 212:2 217:3,4 argue 189:2 arguing 25:19 26:1 argument188:19 arguments 41:20 Aris 4:11 arise 99:12 ARM187:12 Armstrong2:6 7:16,19,21 8:15 9:4,7,11,14 10:20 11:3 12:1,4,21 13:3 33:10,12 34:4,7,11,19 35:1,7,12,14,17 36:4,11 37:12 38:16 39:17 40:16,20 41:17 49:15 70:20 79:7,11 81:13,19 82:2,5,15 83:5,9,20 84:2,4 110:10 113:6 117:14 136:14 138:17 139:10,13 145:3 149:16 150:6,15,17 151:2,5 152:5,15 153:2,8,10 154:4 169:4 170:15,19 arrived 47:3 art163:9 articulate 13:5 Ashley2:6 7:12 10:9 12:14 112:12 144:20 145:5 168:14 171:9 aspect7:1 198:8 204:4 aspects 137:2 141:20 ASRAC 2:5 6:18 7:13,18 16:21 assertion 165:1 assess 50:3,20 assessed 77:17 assessment 186:10,15 193:11 194:3,7,14,19 210:21 associated 106:8,10 123:13 Association 17:12 94:5 assume104:7 187:11,13 assuming 60:3 79:22 82:2 101:6 192:11 assumption 76:6 98:12 178:21,22 197:7 assumptions 183:7 assurance 65:10 assure 25:2,7,8,15 26:15 assured 86:14 assuring 26:13 asymptote134:7 attach 183:8 attached 183:22 193:12 attorney48:20 attorneys 48:10 attractive103:15 attributes 94:7 audit 46:19,21,22 audited 43:4 44:19 auditing39:11 audits 39:11 102:16 August1:12 authority24:4,13 89:14 192:4 194:1 197:9 authorize 77:17 authorized 38:7,12,14 93:11 availability127:7 available 46:3 64:18 67:6 68:4,6 70:14,17 71:11 81:12 121:18 128:15 170:5 178:8 197:2 216:3

### Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Committee Meeting 08-26-2013 Page 5

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 Avenue 1:7 avoid 210:15 avoided 123:11 avoids 32:16 56:10 aware 57:14 150:8 153:1 186:21 187:9 away27:7 102:10 193:10 197:22 awful24:18 B backup 28:6 backwards 91:20 bad 15:17 94:2 170:2 Ballo 2:13 78:14,19 120:1 122:6 149:22 158:7 178:5 179:2,6,10,19 197:21 bar113:19 115:20 116:6 Barhydt 2:7 5:5,6 7:17,20 16:16 20:13 22:4,13 24:10 29:11,19,21 47:10 49:7,14 57:5,13,21 58:3,6 59:5 63:7,15 65:7,13,18 66:5,14,17 70:21 71:2 72:5 77:5,10,12 78:22 83:3,7,10,16,19 84:1,3,5,8,14 85:12,15,18,21 86:7,10 87:1,7,11,15,17, 20 88:7,11,14,18,22 89:12,21 90:8,18 91:17 95:13,19 97:7,10 98:18 101:21 102:17 104:1 113:20 116:19 117:21 118:11,19 120:18 122:2 123:2 128:8,13 130:1,16,18,20,2 2 131:3,7 135:18 136:15,18,21 138:9,13 139:12,18 140:3,6,12 141:12,17 142:2,5,8,11,16 143:4,6,9,13,19 144:1,4,9,12,19 153:11 155:3 156:11 157:12,16 169:20 170:4,8 172:17 173:3 180:8,12 182:5 185:4,15,22 186:3,10,16 187:8 190:9,13,17 200:6,19 201:7,16 202:19 204:17 206:16 208:18 209:4,19,22 211:20 212:2,8,15 213:18 214:7 215:13,20 216:10,13,17,21 217:19 218:2,5,8,11,18 219:1,8,13,16 220:12,17 base 9:18 10:4 12:7 13:12 29:8 119:22 134:12,13 138:1,3 149:19 154:16,19 156:16 183:9 208:14 based 12:8 46:7 59:17 75:10 77:3,18 84:15 101:16 125:2 132:17 134:18,22 145:14 151:2,3 175:5 214:12 baseline 184:5 bases 24:7 basic 6:5 7:2 10:16,18 23:9 28:14 29:3,4,6 31:9 59:8,21 60:3,8,17,19 61:3,6 62:4,5,12 63:1,10,21 66:10 74:5,22 81:15 87:7,8,9 118:4 132:5 134:20 135:6,9 137:10 146:14 154:15 155:19,21 156:7,20 157:14 195:5,6 199:7 201:8,18 203:4 207:6 212:12,13 basically 14:21 15:5 18:2,20 21:19 22:13 65:10,21 77:17 80:8 82:13 86:13,21 109:19 153:12 168:13 172:8 206:19 basis 61:4 104:7 132:2,13 187:21 Bauman 2:14 17:7 21:1 23:2 120:22 190:3,12,15,19 bear24:17 become173:19 175:17 189:10 206:13 becomes 119:20 129:17 178:19 180:22 191:1 becoming174:22 199:8,9 beginning 42:5 160:6 187:22 202:9 behalf 48:13 97:20 105:4 behind 191:4 belief 94:14 believe 6:10 24:12 27:9,13 57:16 59:11 85:20 88:19 111:13 192:15 believed 208:14 believes 195:16 belong 28:6 belongs 32:3 beneficial 136:3 benefit 109:6 114:3 benefits 103:7 Besides 140:4 best26:3 42:20

### Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Committee Meeting 08-26-2013 Page 6

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 45:8 121:15 134:22 198:12 better55:6 57:2 97:3 115:6 121:5 131:5 165:10 183:16 194:10 197:12 214:3 beyond 25:8,10 58:4,14 131:9 208:7 bid 57:1 bigger61:19 104:13 115:2 143:9 154:20 biggest186:20 Bill 4:6 25:18 26:8 32:21 36:17 38:18 45:18 47:10 55:17 65:7 66:2 67:7 69:19 70:9 77:5 82:17 84:20 89:1 90:16,17 96:5 101:6 110:11,12 111:8,19 125:17 Bill's 61:22 bit7:15 16:10 24:16 31:19 37:10 48:19 69:19 136:9 155:8 173:8 191:22 196:18 200:1 204:3 209:7,10 217:2 BlackBerry83:4 blank122:13 blowers 10:15 blowing 163:2,7 blue 177:6 board 18:6 90:15 102:18 105:8 Bob 12:14 61:21 62:21 146:18 155:9 157:20 167:18 168:11 170:13 205:17 206:6 Bob's 146:6 bodies 44:18 47:7 105:5 body37:20 39:14 44:8 105:2 bogus 205:1 boiler 5:8 16:9 57:15 61:9 69:2 100:4 105:8 106:21 107:11,12 127:16 128:19 140:13 199:5 boilers 5:3,12 6:1,2 14:14,21 33:22 57:16 61:10,19 62:18,22 63:15 67:13 97:13 100:7 103:20 104:13,21 106:6,9 107:17,18 126:12 127:1,4,11,13,20 128:19 129:20 139:11,15 141:16 142:6,8,11 144:5,10 172:6 214:17 boiler-water 172:7 209:5 213:21 booked 20:6 boom116:1 borne 25:5 bottom71:13 72:2 73:10 boxes 67:10 brain 67:8 brand 123:13 177:12 break 24:14 73:14 90:18,20 101:20 109:4 135:22 141:17,19 207:2 breakdown 82:18 breaking 5:19 138:10 breakout139:3 145:2 172:2 179:15 180:3 189:15 Brian 2:18 32:20,21 44:4,11 46:11 66:3 70:11 71:18 72:11 91:9 180:2 212:16 213:2 brief 91:5 bring 18:16 24:11,13 30:20 53:17 72:22 73:2,3,4 91:11 205:11 214:6 brings 175:18 broader58:18 Brooks 3:8,17 14:17,21 68:16 96:16 102:2 104:5 128:6 133:20 134:5 brought 16:20 28:19 81:4 89:2 159:5 213:11 218:19 BTS 69:12 BTU 63:2 104:13 129:21 BTUs 5:21 61:12,13 68:3 budget93:14,15 budgetary194:5 build 47:13,15,16,19 127:5,18 139:18,19 210:16,19 building 1:8 107:9 174:19 176:14 build-to 94:10 build-to-order 67:9 68:10 127:12,19 136:5 213:10,16 built 64:14 68:12 70:4,5,7 100:14 113:14 128:6,10,11 131:14 212:8 built-to-order 79:8 129:7,11 212:3 bullet 16:22 79:21 81:10 146:17 153:12,14 155:4 162:2,10 168:16 bullets 145:17 bunch 72:3 bundle 177:3 burden 18:21 19:2 23:5 25:14 29:22

### Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Committee Meeting 08-26-2013 Page 7

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 98:4 102:5 104:10 106:9 114:14 134:7 burdens 131:21 burdensome 72:16 132:12 burn 163:21 burned 205:3 business 9:6 27:15 businesses 206:22 207:1 buying 93:21 175:12 buys 114:8 buzz127:4,15 C cachet116:15 Cadillac 27:10 63:19 64:1 92:13 94:8 95:3 116:12 181:12 206:13 Cadillacs 30:5 Calabrese 2:15 84:18 85:14 115:9 calibrated 33:16 36:21 calibration 30:19 37:16 California93:7 100:20 capabilities 37:1 capability32:7 93:10 capable 42:9 capacity10:10 11:9 59:17 60:13 61:14,17 63:2 97:14 Capital1:18 care94:11 110:21 176:6 career211:8 careful86:5 196:2 202:3 cares 91:1 carried 124:8 Carrier4:7 52:15 61:22 79:11 146:18 168:12 Carrier's 53:5 carry120:11 case8:17 12:22 41:12 60:1 80:13,18 104:9 187:6 204:22 cases 9:17 12:16 61:14 71:21 76:20 82:21 83:2 102:19 106:1 147:1,19 158:14 catalogued 63:13 catch 99:21 120:15 categories 45:20 60:5 205:14 207:22 212:18 caught114:20 causing 104:18 caution 126:8 caveat60:7 cavities 67:8 CEE 124:20,22 125:15,19,21 cellphone 220:7 certain 9:17 36:19,22 37:1 38:15 43:7 57:18 58:1 65:10 92:20 106:8,20 124:9 129:17,21 152:17 165:11 201:3 207:13 218:14 certainly10:11 29:7 61:9 91:19 92:9 94:20 97:12 126:15 128:2 186:18 204:20 certainty92:15 102:7 180:14 CERTIFICATE 221:1 certification 11:19,21 16:2 21:22 24:20,22 30:5,7,15,22 31:5 32:4 37:5,10 44:8,18 47:7 50:15 52:21 53:12,13 56:5,9,11,20 58:9,18 59:4 93:1 111:3 116:22 117:1 120:12 123:9 124:17 145:21 156:21 160:20 178:12,19 181:7,16 182:13 184:3,8,12,22 188:7 189:11 197:17 201:9 202:4 219:9 certifications 38:10 89:6 117:6 162:6 184:14 198:10 certification-type

39:6 certified 31:6 56:17,18,21 57:3 58:8,12,15 92:19 115:20 116:2,11,12,21 117:7 120:7,17 121:9 124:6 129:7 157:6 173:10,12,13 174:9 175:19 176:7 177:3,8,16 178:14,21 179:1,2,17 182:10,21 183:21 185:17 188:4 189:4,6 190:5,6,7,11,14, 20 191:8,10,12,13,1 5,17 197:16 203:10 204:21,22 certifier202:6 certify31:4 48:16,17 56:6 115:22 129:6,9 155:21 160:13 166:9,11,12,18 178:7 183:10 184:5 185:8 186:4 187:10 202:6 221:4 certifying 56:4 156:7 160:18 167:2 175:6,7 190:16 205:19,20 CFRN140:20 chain 35:22 chairs 143:19

### Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Committee Meeting 08-26-2013 Page 8

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 challenge 6:15 32:1 75:5,7,11 77:6,7,16,22 78:16,20 79:3,22 80:2,5 81:14,21 82:12 84:22 85:12,15 98:14 99:6,22 100:11 101:7,11,14,16 102:2,3,10,16,22 105:14,16 108:19 114:9 116:4,5 128:14 204:13 challenged 84:20 100:12 challengee 75:14 85:4 challenger 75:14 78:1,2 79:1 challenges 76:7,10 78:9 82:19 103:2 challenging98:17 chance 18:16,17 23:14 change 16:8 43:21 93:3 99:17 126:7 158:16 160:17 164:12 171:21 209:18,20 210:1 changed 99:16 132:19 changes 11:2,4 178:8 changing 10:3 characteristic15:4 characteristics 59:16 61:13 62:19 137:22 157:13 176:1 characterizations 138:6 characterize92:12 137:20 characterizing 94:8 charges 24:21 Charles 3:2 Charlie 19:7,10 20:4 21:10 29:2 104:20 128:8 134:9 135:3 196:14 200:14 chart74:16 172:12 174:8 199:1 check 105:16 142:1,2 184:13 216:2,20,21 checked 65:4 186:14,19 checking 114:11,16,17 checklists 113:10 chillers 70:2 choice 28:4 54:4 74:3 204:1 choose 64:22 66:9 72:17 chooses 196:20 choosing 71:9,11 208:5 Christine 1:17 221:2,15 Cincinnati 107:9,12,14 circles 136:8 circumstances 131:12 claim101:12 120:19,21 137:8,10,16 166:7 178:11,17 199:11,20 claimed107:15 138:2 claiming 103:8 107:8 114:12 claims 120:7,10 128:22 clarification 146:17,21 212:17 213:5 clarify95:13 148:15 clarifying 152:17,19 clarity169:15 class 14:9 92:20 97:4,5,7 122:12 150:8 157:7 classes 25:14 classifications 165:13 clean 105:19 cleaned 105:22 clear26:14 118:4,15 119:15 120:8 172:17 199:15,17 200:11,12 clearly74:1 146:2 Cleaver3:8,17 14:17,20 68:15 96:15 102:1 104:5 128:5 133:20 134:5 clicking 191:10 client20:2 27:15

close 94:21 151:3 181:9 189:18 193:17 closer115:1 207:11 closet143:18,20 144:8 clue 47:14 Co 3:7,16 coat143:18 code 105:8 199:8 coffee 140:5 142:15,17 collect93:15 Collin 4:13 column 120:2 198:15 columns 122:9 combustion 140:10 comes14:4 45:12 86:19 110:16 117:18 191:18 comfortable10:11 12:10 53:16 55:12 coming32:6 77:13 95:8 126:1 149:2 181:9 comment18:14 70:12 72:10 134:10 205:12 comments 10:7 15:7 17:13,17 25:17 67:9 101:20 108:6 171:8

### Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Committee Meeting 08-26-2013 Page 9

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 commerce25:3,9 26:13 133:10 188:1 202:10 203:1 205:7 commercial16:17 17:10 30:9 33:20,22 34:17 38:3 60:1 63:15 67:12,22 89:14 91:18 98:21 125:8,22 126:15 129:5 140:17 141:5,6 156:4 185:2,13 186:11 188:14 189:21 205:13,15 206:1 209:12,14 216:3 Commission 89:13 93:7 100:20 commissioned 104:22 105:1 133:1 213:14 commissioning 105:10 Commission's 178:16 committed 146:11 189:19 committee1:4 125:14 220:20 common 63:12 72:21 181:2 214:13,16,17 communication 55:4 companies 16:9 17:22 19:11 174:4 205:1 208:13,16 company1:18 48:13 68:17 93:11,12,17 105:4 106:22 171:12 188:21 208:11 company's 173:11 comparable 27:2,13 121:1 151:7 157:12,13 173:20 176:1 193:5 comparative135:7 compare191:11 200:16 compared 208:11,14 comparing117:17 191:3 comparison 121:3 153:20 163:12 comparisons 111:10 competing119:2 competition 103:6 competitive 100:14 116:9,10,16 competitor32:3 99:7,8 114:9 competitors 15:10 64:5 98:15,17 99:4 competitor's 32:2 completed55:18 84:9 completely62:21 81:17 131:22 145:1 214:15 compliance 187:10 192:17 203:21 compliant93:18 99:1,9 complicated49:6 189:20 complication 191:22 complied 201:12 complies 106:3 comply201:8 complying 193:20 component 99:14,16 components 15:3 59:18 61:17 66:19 70:7 compressor60:12 computers 133:11 concept22:21 31:11 59:9 60:13,21 134:13,14,20 135:5 145:11 146:14 183:10 concern 6:20 16:18 17:3 21:7 22:14,20,22 90:9,12 91:19 111:14 177:17 187:7 191:2 concerned 20:5 24:16 107:4 120:6 180:20 184:8 195:20 204:3 concerning 101:20 concerns 17:21 19:3 89:9 91:17 94:12 101:21 123:5,8 126:18

conclude 192:3 concluded 192:12 220:20 conclusion 55:21 131:18 conclusions 80:17 conclusive 84:12 concrete136:10 condition 147:9 conditioner 89:8 conditioners 47:17 conditioning 106:7 126:15 conditions 159:12,16 160:2 conduct30:17 40:13 45:20 46:15 82:9 93:9,16 201:17 conducted 41:10 83:14 99:7 conducting 34:21 46:9 conference 17:9 142:21,22 143:16 confidence177:11 confident15:9 confirm 217:2 conflict 32:16,17 confused 165:15 202:11 confusing 166:5 confusion 56:10,15,19 57:14 195:13,19

### Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Committee Meeting 08-26-2013 Page 10

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 connection 173:5 cons 108:21 consensus 110:16 141:10 153:4 169:7 consequences 73:22 74:6,13 123:6 consider 13:7 80:4 103:9 123:9 124:10 130:14 134:12 169:6 consideration 10:6,18 19:11 20:10 considerations 19:21 considered 27:18 112:21 considering 14:9 97:16 consistent184:14 Consortium 124:13 125:3 constantly45:2 constitutes 119:1 constraints 6:16 construction 63:12 66:21 176:13 consumer24:21 89:12 122:16 177:11 196:3 consumers 186:18 198:4 consumption 121:15 contact70:15 121:19 contains 122:8

cont'd 3:1 4:1 context20:17 38:1 148:4 continual 187:21 continue 8:1 125:15 189:19 194:3,14,17 continues 46:18 continuing137:14 138:3 208:20 continuous 32:15 continuously 32:12 contract36:17,19 contracting 37:7 contractor38:3,6 122:16 contractors 65:12 contracts 50:4 65:18 contractual65:16 contrary120:14 control43:13 Control-C 179:20 controls 93:2 Control-V179:20 controversy176:9 conventional 154:13 conversation 11:6 45:6 126:13 conversations 9:21 163:11 convert61:11 convey42:16 52:1 conveyed 50:18 52:3 convinced 97:5 cool131:19 163:3 cooled 150:20 Cooling 2:19 coordinate 134:14 coordinated 17:11 copy16:20 24:11 168:14 170:12 corner136:19 Corporation 3:22 4:7 correct 7:12 36:7,16 57:11 82:13 87:19 93:19 101:10 125:18 172:20 212:19 correctly10:14 41:10,11 49:6,9 54:10,18 cost19:17 22:22 23:3,7 25:3,13 98:4,5,8 102:11 106:14 115:7 127:8 cost-benefit20:19 cost-effective 68:7 costs 15:16,19 17:22 18:21 20:20 24:16 102:4 106:8 123:11 127:9 Council 3:11,20 countless 128:12 country204:7 couple 5:4,9 8:17 11:8 16:9,17 73:16 87:1 138:21 141:14 188:10 190:22 210:4 course 24:6 30:16 31:22 32:4 61:2 64:13 65:3 73:20 74:4,6,22 75:9 83:2 94:18 100:5 115:12,15 176:8 211:6 Court221:1,2,15 cover31:14 57:9 152:18 220:14 covered10:1 20:9 43:3 57:17 58:19 59:4 69:15 103:13 118:5,6 145:20 146:3,20 147:3,5 148:1,5,14,20 156:17 162:13 198:18 210:18Covered/notcovered148:13 covers 44:18 129:15 CRE 27:8 28:9,13,15 97:12,21 103:20 127:15,20 139:12,13 140:11 142:5,6 143:10 202:1,15 205:20 206:10,11,17 209:1 218:6 create154:17 195:12 creating116:10,14

### Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Committee Meeting 08-26-2013 Page 11

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 credible 30:21 82:3 204:10,15 205:9 credit183:13 CRE's 144:12 criteria38:15 60:3 86:20 106:3 181:5,10 188:17 criticizing 87:15 cross-states 13:10 crystal199:17 CSA4:2 168:17 CSA's 44:2 curb 147:12 current10:21 57:22 155:11 currently11:14 45:11,19 46:1 61:3 69:6 75:2 95:11 109:20 146:8 151:8 152:18 190:15 curve 149:3,4 159:17 custom128:10 129:1 131:14 136:5 139:19 211:22 212:3 customer105:14 106:22 customers 25:16 103:7 104:9 125:16 170:17 customer's 105:18 106:20 customs 210:9 cut69:4 190:9 cycle133:7,12 134:2 D D.C 1:10 Daikin 3:5,14 daily 185:9 Dane 2:16 19:18 22:5 23:17 27:6 28:17 29:16,20 42:21 43:12,17,21 44:13 192:10 201:21 205:17 206:14,19 209:2 danger109:14 data20:2,3 27:16 28:3 41:8 46:17 95:22 98:21 108:5 149:6 151:14,16 152:9 155:13 161:8 164:3 166:2 169:1 185:9,16 186:5,6 187:14 196:18 197:4 202:5,6 204:2 210:8 database 117:10,12,18 120:2 189:11 date 84:16 198:4 dates 217:18 218:3 Dave 84:18 115:9 David 2:15 DAVP190:2 209:15 day7:7 24:10 72:15 103:5 187:18 days 8:17 71:1 177:4 217:18 de 75:21 123:9 178:19 189:10 196:19 deadline7:15 deadlines 20:7 deal9:15 22:14 26:2 90:11 177:17 211:21 213:19 dealing 12:11 125:8 death 204:5 debated 180:5 decide 47:11 60:7 69:3 79:2 deciding 104:14 decision 75:10 174:17 188:11,12,15 decisions 175:3 deemed200:1 Defense 174:15 176:6 deficiency 137:8 138:3 define 9:13 62:5 210:10,14 defined 146:2 154:22 212:14 defines 14:2 definite149:7,11 161:19 164:1,2,4 167:21 168:3,5,7 definitely39:1 42:5 56:9 62:17 142:22 143:9 definition 11:10 14:7 29:6 31:9,10 61:6 62:4 63:8 134:18 135:8,9 150:13,14 151:1 154:15 162:1 164:9 195:5,6 definitions 59:11 127:18 definitive 85:2,9 defray19:16 Degitz4:10 degree94:2 delay85:8 deliverables 136:13 demonstrate 36:18,22 demonstrated 15:20 department1:1,6 2:6,7 5:6 8:4 10:5 12:10,11 13:17 38:21 41:1,21 63:19 82:6 83:2,6 110:14 111:11,13,14,16 112:8 117:4 146:11 153:4 170:19 174:15 176:5 179:4 182:10 185:18 Departments 175:11 Department's 9:16 38:18 102:14 110:10,21 138:18 145:16 169:6

### Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Committee Meeting 08-26-2013 Page 12

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 depend 72:11 76:22 193:2 depending73:6 75:12 86:17 207:20 depends 71:19,20 88:19 139:20 150:6 152:15 derail202:16 derailed 202:18 de-rate74:3 77:4 de-rated76:1 Derek 2:20 derived 132:9 deriving 114:2 describe 39:20 49:21 58:14 161:3 195:18 197:2 described 73:22 94:7,15 153:18 describes 55:7 77:16 80:21 112:13 describing 35:18 161:2 164:14,16,18 description 197:11 descriptive 164:9 descriptor14:6 descriptors 59:18 60:11 design 13:15 15:1 25:13 63:11 92:19 93:2,3 99:15 127:10 159:13 designate 208:7 designation 63:12 118:4 137:16 designed 93:21 99:20 150:20 156:6 157:8 160:1 designers 203:22 designs 9:20 12:9 160:17 desire 171:14 despite 96:2 destroy26:1,6 destroying 26:10 detail12:15 121:13 detailed 110:18 details 6:13 13:4,5 16:4 24:9 110:13 111:5,9,21 112:6 193:2,15 determination 83:21 162:20 166:3 determine146:10 149:5 determined5:20 197:8 determining6:14 124:7 deterrent75:3 devalue 123:12 develop 15:2 102:6 developed 179:22 194:20,21 developing 95:5 development 204:6 devil's 40:21 110:13 dialogue171:19 Diane 158:19 164:14,16 167:19 difference35:21 36:13 40:3 41:19 54:1 55:15 71:14 115:2,19 128:9 129:10 163:21 174:15,20 188:9 196:9 differences 30:14 36:8 97:14 different6:8,14 9:18 11:12 29:7,9 32:18 37:11,18,19,22 44:20 47:20 48:19 49:13 53:17 62:7,12 66:9 69:17 94:13,14 100:6,9 101:2 108:14,22 131:12,13,15 135:19,20,22 137:2 139:16 146:1 153:21 156:16 157:22 159:17 160:1 168:5,8 173:1 175:6,18 179:16 181:8 183:8,19 184:16,18 185:14 188:17 189:16 205:14,21 206:7,8,10,22 207:4 214:14 differentiated 25:10 differentiation 121:11 differently53:1 difficult122:3 213:16 Digital221:15 digress 67:18 diligence 112:18 diminished 116:13 direct10:15 211:16 directing 100:4 direction 139:6 221:6 directions 108:14 directly45:2 80:10 director75:1 directory75:19,22 118:2,14 119:15 123:14 125:20 126:4 137:8 177:16 directs 43:17 disagree 40:22 115:15 139:1 disagreed 80:16 disagreement 118:21 discern 122:11 disclaimer 117:15,16 disconnect 116:20 discontinued 93:20 discouraged 160:7 discretion 72:4

### Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Committee Meeting 08-26-2013 Page 13

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 discretionary82:9 discriminating 104:8 discuss 23:13 138:19 211:21 213:13 discussed 20:16,21 21:18 29:12 30:2 45:7 90:10 98:3 134:10 145:15 180:6 206:11 208:9 discussing 5:9 22:17 23:21 30:6 130:13 134:21 212:18 discussion 21:4,21 27:20 29:3 90:4 91:8 126:17 127:1 138:20 141:9 155:5 176:5 180:5 214:1 216:1,9,14 217:13 discussions 8:1,5,21 38:22 41:3 81:10 136:13 139:5 164:7 169:14 214:12 dishonest15:21 displaying 125:20 disposing 104:17 dissimilarity59:2 distinct 58:10 198:16 distinction 115:10 127:22 196:5 distribute 201:12 distributing 202:22 distributor 64:13 divergent26:9 divorce 48:21 document28:11 43:18 112:13 documentation 165:14 documented 165:5,9 documents 39:20 42:15 45:15 81:8,12 102:10 DoE 2:5 11:21 12:5 16:22 17:4 18:12,16 22:15 23:13,19 24:3,4 25:21 26:1 31:12 41:4,5,6 48:20 57:10 59:5,6,9 69:17 89:3,5,8,14,17 90:7 91:21,22 92:4,16 94:22 95:10 98:3 100:6,9 101:16,21,22 103:12 108:18 109:9,15,18 110:5 111:12 114:7,13 115:20 116:9,11,20,21 117:7 118:2,5,6,8,14,1 7 119:1,4 120:7,17 121:6,15,19,22 122:7,9,10,19 123:1,17 124:10 126:6 130:14 131:7 132:14 135:6,8 137:7,11,21 139:3 145:5,19,20 146:19,20 147:3,5,7 148:5,9,20,21 151:10,15,17 152:5,9 153:20 155:1,11 162:5,13 167:7 169:2,11 172:11,16,18 173:9 174:16 175:11 176:8 177:16 178:6,13,14 179:18 180:3 182:3,9,12,14 183:2 184:3 185:1 186:10 187:2 188:3,4 190:2,5,21 191:6 192:3,11,19,22 193:2,10,22 194:11,12,14 195:16 197:8 198:2 199:3,9 200:8,9 201:2,7,10 203:15 204:2,15 207:17 208:4 DOE-recognized 199:11,13,21 doe's 25:7 26:10,12 29:6,8 90:8 134:13 138:18 187:9 DoE's 174:8 dollar 211:13,14 dollars 177:22 188:11,15,21 211:6 done 5:12 8:2 9:3 39:11 41:10 42:2 43:4 49:11 50:5,7,9,21 73:19 81:14,22 88:1,4,6 93:1 95:6 97:3 100:3 106:11 107:17 112:17 134:16 179:8 194:16 199:12 211:8 217:11 Doppel2:17 123:4 178:18 179:5,8,11 184:19 185:6,19 188:8,22 189:21,22 198:14 200:22 201:14 206:4 217:9 double 41:18 74:12,20 76:14 doubt 77:18 102:9 downloaded 219:14 draft180:18 drafting 192:18 draw 17:15 drawing122:13 167:14 drawings 167:13 drill 140:2 drive 10:15 29:21 159:5,6 167:16 171:2 drivers 135:5 drives 159:8 drop 110:6 due 84:19 86:11

### Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Committee Meeting 08-26-2013 Page 14

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 112:18 dump 185:16 during 21:18 23:13 27:20 50:18 179:15 199:22 210:4 217:18 dynamic 116:14 175:18 dynamics 126:6 dynos 168:22 E earlier41:21 70:12 96:3 113:7 177:15 195:16 219:4 ears 139:22 Earth 103:6 EarthJustice 2:13 78:14 eases 131:20 easily175:10 easy59:1 112:17 123:3 124:21 echoing 67:8 ECM10:17 12:7,17,20 13:13,14,15 145:22 154:13 155:8,10,13 ECMs 11:13 163:14 167:2 economies 208:12 Economy3:12,21 education 90:6 EER113:21 114:2 effect44:15 171:15 effective 27:5,18 217:18 218:3 effects 96:21 efficiencies 15:2 82:20 83:1 102:9 148:6 153:21 172:12 efficiency6:14 12:17,18,19 13:15 46:13,19 93:1 96:21 100:13 101:13 102:7,8 105:11 106:20 107:1,5,8,15 116:7 118:13 124:5,6,7,14 125:3 128:21,22 137:10,12,16,19 146:10 147:11 148:21 149:2,4,5 154:20 159:9,18 160:13 162:10,20 163:4,8,13,14 164:19 165:11,19 166:2,4,5,9,20 167:14 168:10 169:10 171:3,5 172:15 199:6,10,14,18,2 0 201:20 203:11 efficient13:16 157:9 159:15 160:12,19 162:11 165:2,5,7,17 166:8,15,17 efficiently159:21 effort124:20 efforts 145:13 203:22 Eisner 2:3 5:2 9:2,5,8 10:7 14:13 15:7 16:14 25:17 73:13,18 75:15 76:3,7,17,22 77:22 78:4,8 79:17,20 89:16 90:16,20 91:3,6,13,15 95:20 96:9 106:15 108:6 109:9 110:1,4 126:22 128:4 129:3 130:3,7 138:11 141:10 142:4,6,13 143:12 144:17 147:14 151:22 152:4 159:1 171:8 172:1,4 173:2 174:5 175:8 180:11,16,18 186:8 188:19 192:3,11 193:7,10,19 194:13,18 195:15 197:1,6 198:21 200:5 214:11,18,21 215:7 216:7 217:12 218:15 220:13,16 either13:14 17:4,18 18:2 22:12 27:8 29:17 31:20 32:3 34:13 59:17 99:5 113:12 118:5 127:18 137:10 139:1 151:3 170:20 186:12

190:6 196:13 200:4 215:2 electric2:17 145:18 146:19 150:18,19 151:9 electrical24:20 elevating 201:2 eliminates 56:14 else 14:13 24:2 75:8 80:17 91:13 92:1 100:14 102:5 105:15 127:2 172:1,22 173:2 188:13 195:7 205:11 218:19 220:13 else's 119:19 e-mail9:21 20:9 219:12 e-mails 9:9 16:17 17:14 e-motors159:14 employed34:8 221:8 employee72:19 employees 47:4 65:13,16 66:3 72:14 Enclosed 154:5 encompass 51:16 encounter107:22 endorsement 117:8 178:12 184:10 energy1:1,6 2:6,7 5:7 19:12 20:1 21:11 25:11 44:8,10 46:12,18

### Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Committee Meeting 08-26-2013 Page 15

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 63:19 93:7 100:20 120:9,11 121:15 124:5,13 125:3 126:5 176:11 186:16,17 189:3,4 Energy-Efficient 3:11,20 enforcement 115:11,16,18 engaged 163:10 engineer165:4 engineered 103:17 104:6 210:19 engineered-to 128:13 210:9,16 213:11engineered-toorder94:11 127:5,12,19 213:17 Engineering 3:10,19 engineers 46:14 47:12,15 50:2 159:13 enhanced 118:7 120:12 enormous 26:17 enrich 204:1 ensure 49:5 146:4 160:11 ensuring 115:13 enter86:22 88:5 110:19 entering 204:20 enters 86:14 entire 15:15 72:15,20 73:2 203:18 entirely213:6 entity32:18 111:2 entry204:10 environment 204:1,2 envisioned 23:19 EPA126:4 189:5 EPACT 21:16 EPCA24:11,14 89:13 equal13:14 18:8 27:19 111:17 117:20 130:20 173:21 174:3 179:13 189:12 equally 48:21 49:2 173:16 182:2,3 equation 175:18 equipment17:12 30:20 36:21 38:3,8,12 48:15 51:11,14 53:1 58:8 92:20 93:16 96:2 106:11 108:2 118:13 126:15 129:1 159:4 160:6 165:6 174:19 equitable 110:19 111:11 208:15 equivalent 39:7 ESP 10:11 especially9:17 essence 32:11 essential7:2 essentially 37:18 38:20 68:12 109:1 137:6 establish 24:5 115:19 199:9 established 26:4 132:18 176:10 203:11 207:14 establishes 124:22 establishing 24:8 159:8 177:11 estimate159:9 211:10 estimates 187:17 ETL 27:21 43:22 eventually 107:13 everybody5:2 14:14 18:5 24:2 27:9 108:13 113:22 115:7 119:5,9 127:2 130:2,7 136:6 144:1,13,17 185:8 187:5 194:22 205:11 216:22 217:20 218:2 everybody's 18:8 20:14 29:13 everyone 5:5 92:1,9 118:20 136:15 182:7 everyone's 178:22 everything 18:15 26:13 28:18 37:3 63:1 78:6 86:8 113:22 139:7 170:18 187:11,13 193:21 208:1 evidence 84:12

ex65:12 Exact150:14 exactly5:19 70:9 117:11 160:10 193:16 example10:17 25:11 33:22 56:15 58:16 60:2,10 61:9 62:6,18 80:22 89:7 106:19 113:9,14 120:9 122:14 147:19 153:15 155:16 161:9 176:12 examples 62:1 98:19 exceedingly127:9 Excel201:18 215:10 excellent124:18 except55:3 117:14 145:6 193:22 exclude 13:17 20:2 exclusion 149:21 excuse 140:4 excused 217:5 executive 176:21 177:19 exhausted 85:6,9 exile 216:3 exist43:3 45:16 100:17 128:14 145:19 146:20 existed 118:2 existence 95:11 105:21

### Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Committee Meeting 08-26-2013 Page 16

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 existing 19:16 69:15 109:8 151:10 152:19 153:10 exists 45:15 95:11 187:4 expand 125:11,21 209:7 expense 22:15 Expensive79:9 experience 42:13 50:15 53:16,19,20 71:19 72:21 95:6,7 122:8 124:5 132:17 134:22 165:6 181:15 experienced 53:3,21 experiential 132:15 experiential-based 132:11 expert33:14 44:11 expertise 42:6 50:18 explain 24:3 49:16 explaining 38:19 117:15 explanation 15:4 explicitly 203:10 expound 56:13 expressed 91:19 126:18 expressing 16:18 extend 154:15,19 extending 160:20 extension 124:19 184:11 extent7:22 68:18 90:10 110:15 194:4 external147:9 150:20 extra7:7 181:16,19 183:12 extreme98:13 104:5 203:7 extremely72:12 eyes 55:5 F fabricated 15:3 FACILITATOR 2:2 facilities 16:7 30:18 45:16 48:6 facility 34:2,5 35:8 47:11 50:8 51:3,6 64:17,18,21 fact28:10 96:19 115:16 124:19 172:11 173:21 187:15 189:10 196:15 206:11,19 208:9 facto 123:9 178:19 189:10 196:19 factors 134:17 factory55:9 fail 32:19 78:9,19 102:15 205:1 failed 32:1 78:13 85:21 86:2 99:11 102:19

failing96:2 fails 31:16 60:18 75:13 86:9 87:14 89:3 114:8 failure74:6,13,14 78:15 89:18 107:21,22 205:5 failures 16:3 73:21 74:9 77:4 96:7,9,17,18 207:12,13 fair 23:12 26:15 78:15 110:8 152:4 173:15 179:21 181:22 208:15 210:21 fairly 103:18 183:3 203:7 fall 31:8 58:22 76:8 135:17 200:15 falls 129:8 familiar17:13 30:1 52:16,18,20 63:4 100:21 150:12 152:11 families 31:11 60:2 family31:15,16 59:11 60:12,19 fast204:12 favored 176:16 fear22:8 fearful 110:5 feasible127:18 feature 203:17 features 177:4 federal1:4 86:2,3,9 89:3,7,13 90:5 109:18 113:21 115:4 174:19 176:12,16,19 177:18 178:15,16 220:19 federally 103:13 feedback6:19 19:8 117:5 feel24:4 46:20 53:16 75:3 98:6 135:17 165:9 173:1 209:12 feelings 127:16 feels 11:21 172:11 feet97:6 felt10:11 134:22 189:22 213:13 FEMP176:11 Ferriol2:18 32:21 33:3 44:4,11 46:11 66:2 70:11 71:18 91:9 180:2 212:16 213:2 field 18:9 25:15 109:21 133:11 166:2 205:16 fight 45:1 figure 20:22 66:7 140:22 144:4 filling 155:9 final 7:17 16:21 99:18 152:13 finally86:12 finance48:9 financial48:9

### Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Committee Meeting 08-26-2013 Page 17

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 221:9 fine 93:22 194:17 195:8 fineable 120:15 fire 61:10 fired 140:16 firm 24:19 first24:3 41:3 49:22 79:21 84:11,21,22 122:19 123:16 137:20 146:17 172:4 193:1 198:17 209:10 217:5 219:17 fit61:7 132:22 143:15 fits 97:6 five 104:16 193:16 215:1 fleshing218:6 Flexibility 192:5,13 flexible131:16 floating 177:5 floor 142:21 flowing 163:18 flunk 104:8 108:17 flunked 193:12 Fly2:19 210:3,14 212:11 focused 95:20 103:19 FOIA122:4 180:11,12 FOIA-able 197:22 FOIAed122:5 FOIAing 198:2 FOIAs 122:4 folks 5:15 19:5 91:19 121:5 127:16 138:9 206:5 213:21 Food17:12 foothold 29:10 force 167:11 forced 27:10 foregoing 221:3 forget70:1 forklift71:6 form92:18 94:15 former93:17 Forrestal 1:8 forth 30:9 37:2 177:7 209:11 forths 145:12 Fortunately93:19 Forty-eight161:19 forward 8:7,9 77:20 79:3 80:18 124:9 138:22 204:6 forwarded 77:14 foundation 126:17 fractional 149:10 155:10 frame12:17 147:2 149:10 159:6 161:7,14,20 164:21 167:13,20 framed17:3 frames 161:16,17 framework 126:19,20 Frank 3:9,18 5:13,15,16 16:1 52:8 55:16 56:2 92:3 100:19 107:20 108:4 118:1 126:11 127:3,17 128:1 129:12 137:3 140:8 199:4 213:8 218:9 Frank's 67:8 129:11 free 173:1 fresh 134:17 front142:20 151:6 FTC 89:9 120:8,13,14 fuel 130:2 full 7:14 full-time 66:3 fully 15:1 47:7 196:9 fulsome 208:22 functions 61:18 fund 178:1 fundamental9:20 31:10 40:3 59:20 182:6 201:8 203:4 fundamentally 177:22 183:19 184:15 funded 20:12 131:9 132:1 funding 124:19 furnaces 140:18 141:5

future 125:13 G gain 53:6 98:13 game98:2 games 25:11 gas 94:5 140:9,15 gas-fired 140:9,16 geared 98:7 gears 145:1 Gee104:11 general5:17,21 13:9 42:11 53:13 97:15 134:3 137:4 147:4,8 149:11 161:5,10,18 162:1 163:19 165:1 166:19 168:6 174:18 187:9 188:6 generally187:8 203:7 generically24:12 Geoff 16:5 61:5 100:1 104:10 Geoffrey2:21 gets 14:7 60:19 68:16 77:20 115:1 146:6 getting6:19 8:12 12:15 37:18 41:9,13 46:21 54:7 122:5 123:13 147:19 183:12 184:9 186:19 198:8 201:1 204:15

### Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Committee Meeting 08-26-2013 Page 18

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 215:15 Giant177:12 gist86:16 given 29:18 43:8 74:8 81:21 83:21 85:4 91:17 135:18 169:6 182:18 185:16 208:19 gives 140:4 191:19 204:9 giving 110:12 glad 81:4 Global2:20 goal177:9,10 goals 13:8 gone 28:20 96:2 173:17,18 Goodbye 220:11,12 gotcha101:9 govern 105:6 government2:20 117:8 176:19 178:1 182:3 187:20 government-run 109:18 189:5 government's 135:16 government-type 189:9 grab 73:1 grand 111:21 grasp 22:10 great9:22 10:2 22:14 26:2 37:12 90:11 122:21 175:4 177:21 189:6 220:8 greater 130:16,17,20 208:1 209:13 greatly175:4 green 176:13 177:12 Greenauer2:20 grounds 77:18 group 10:16,19 16:20 18:2,3 20:17 28:21 29:3 30:3 59:9 60:3,8,11,18,19 61:6 62:4,6,19 63:1,10 66:10 71:8 74:5,22 75:6 81:15 87:8,10 97:21 125:9 127:15 134:20 138:13 140:10,11 142:19,20 143:1 144:2 154:14,16,18 155:19 160:4 162:10 166:19 167:3 169:19 171:15 172:7 180:18 181:1 192:7 196:10,11 199:5 206:11 208:7 210:5 212:4 213:12 214:9 grouped 11:15,18 59:15,17 63:9 145:20 146:3,20 160:21 162:14,19 grouping 59:10,20 146:5 148:9,22 150:11 153:16 154:17 162:21 166:14 groupings 68:11 groups 28:15 29:1,4 31:9,10 59:21 60:8 61:4 132:6 138:10,15 139:9 141:11,18 142:4 143:15 144:15 172:2 186:18 200:2 207:6 212:13 213:10 216:16 217:5 growing 203:14 GSA176:6 guarantee 15:13 guarantees 102:8 guess 11:7 16:1 18:13 24:2 25:19 29:22 38:16 41:18 66:6 98:11 128:18 162:22 173:4 175:17 177:21 183:15,18 184:15 186:22 193:1 200:6 219:11 guidance113:12 Guide 43:4,5 44:6,17 120:9,11 guidelines 36:9 50:17 54:21 guy38:10 44:14 165:22 guys 8:7,11,20,22 13:6 38:19 101:18 111:22 139:17 145:10,13 169:5 210:2 220:7,9 H half 78:12 90:22 133:2 141:3 144:12 216:18 Halley2:21 16:5 61:5 62:2,11,16 100:1 105:1,3,7,12 107:6 134:4 hand 130:10 136:19 158:21 203:8 handle 61:20 handled 82:5 100:8 101:4 108:8 118:3 handles 44:14 70:14 handling 135:1 hands 143:3,5,8,11 happen 70:14 79:7 163:20 205:5 happens 16:3 58:14 66:11 102:22 114:9 185:9 happy 165:16 171:6 202:7 207:17 hard 15:15 107:11 111:19 215:16,17 Harvey3:11,20 10:8 11:1,5

### Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Committee Meeting 08-26-2013 Page 19

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 14:16 15:8 18:6 24:15 25:18 26:7,21 62:20 67:7 89:1 97:1 103:14 127:17 132:3 133:4 139:22 140:7 142:14 145:16 176:2 203:6 204:18 217:9 Harvey's 142:16 Haseman 2:22 haven't26:16 127:14 134:16 144:2 203:3 213:20 having 10:16 11:6 18:10 19:2 27:12 29:12 32:18 38:22 63:12 72:13 77:1 81:10 90:4 96:2 116:4 120:2,6 128:15 160:15 177:13 187:2 194:11 197:13 198:15 203:11 204:3 head 66:17 hear15:3 16:1 45:1 72:6 79:18 101:15 158:22 heard 33:5 57:14 100:11 128:19 132:5 138:20 151:12 198:22 209:4 214:18 hearing 10:13 22:14 28:2 91:3 106:17 108:7 210:22 heartburn 104:18 heat58:17 63:2 heater129:15 140:13 172:7 199:5 209:5 213:21 heater/boiler 143:7 heaters 139:11,15 142:9,12 144:6,9 heating 2:10,19 107:10,12 125:21,22 heirloom 133:20 134:1 held 15:16 44:18 114:5,6 115:3 173:14 175:8 he'll 16:4 Hello 5:5 79:16 help 43:6 46:21 49:14 67:19 113:15 126:12,22 174:13 197:12 helpful8:20 23:18,22 37:13 89:15 149:22 helps 216:8 hereby221:3 here's 201:19 he's 16:1 38:12 52:19 67:10 81:13 155:17 165:6 Hex3:4,13 hey54:6 Hi7:21 high 74:13,14 101:8 116:6 127:9 147:7,10 156:3,8 157:5 158:8,9,13 159:6,11,12,17 161:6 171:2 192:14 higher 9:19 10:10,11 11:6 12:9,18,19 55:13 71:3 78:15 86:20 88:11 118:13 119:19 147:4 149:21 158:10 159:14 160:11 173:14 175:9,12 higher-level 184:10 highest97:11 101:13 hire 47:12 hired 51:5 historically 22:15 hit17:17 23:15 133:9 hold 12:16 35:3 83:18 holes 163:2 homeowner 188:12 Hon 3:2 19:10 29:2 104:20 105:2,5,9 128:9 130:12,17,19,21 131:1,6 134:9 135:3 196:14 200:14 208:9 209:3 210:22 211:14,16 218:7 honest181:14 honestly8:16 48:2 211:5 Hootman 3:3 52:9,11,15,18,20 53:2,8,11,19 54:3,9,13,16 55:10 58:16 59:6 66:18,22 70:6 79:9,13 129:4 140:15,20 141:2,7 155:7,16 156:2,14 157:5,15,18 158:5,11,18 167:19 168:3 180:17 186:2 209:9,20 210:1,12 211:4,15,18 212:1,7 214:2 215:16 216:5 218:22 219:20 220:3,6,10 hope 48:1 59:8 123:15 124:20 125:10,13 hopefully23:16 152:10 164:3 169:14 hoping 5:15 139:2 horsepower 11:7 61:11 156:10 167:15 hostage 15:16 hour 72:2 90:22 141:17,22 142:1,2 216:17,19,21 hours 141:19 house 50:6,10 housing163:2

### Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Committee Meeting 08-26-2013 Page 20

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 HTP 4:5 45:18 47:3 56:12 63:16 82:17 102:13 179:14 215:5 huge 68:20 93:14 128:9 188:9 203:21 huh 215:4 humungous 67:13 hundred 208:16 hung 210:8 Hunt 79:16,18,21 80:10,13,16 81:1,6 82:12 124:2,12 125:10 Hurst3:4,13 48:5 101:5 133:4 142:1 Hussmann 3:22 97:17 HVAC 6:4,6 7:3,22 11:8 13:21 29:1 47:11 48:7 49:3 65:12 129:5 139:11 140:17 141:6 142:7,8 143:4 144:12 156:4 168:8 189:21 205:13,15 206:2,5,10 209:12,14 213:18 216:4 219:18 HVAC's 209:5 HVs 30:9 I I'd 23:3 101:18 128:1 141:15 idea 8:15 11:22 12:6 92:1,18 98:4 99:18 103:9 122:21,22 134:11 144:7 151:6 185:22 213:15 220:3 ideas 108:7 identical 181:9 identified 137:7 identify137:9 identifying 137:22 IEEE 168:18 ignoring 196:15 I'll16:5 18:4,11 21:5 23:4 49:22 56:15 58:16 78:11 173:8 219:12 220:8 I'm7:13 8:18 10:13 17:2,13 20:7,22 21:5 24:15 26:16 28:22 36:4,5,6,11,17 38:16 39:9 40:20 41:1,2,18 42:22 43:22 44:11 45:15 47:10 53:2 55:14 59:16 61:5,6 62:21 63:4 66:6 68:9 69:11 74:1 78:4,18 79:1,22 81:4 84:2 85:3 87:15,17 93:5 94:8 97:5,20 98:12 101:6 103:16 104:3,4 106:5,13 108:7 113:1 119:18 121:5,21 122:12 125:12,14 130:11 132:7 134:2 135:4 138:15 140:22 148:7 150:12 151:13 152:11 155:16,18 157:19 160:7,8 168:21 171:18 173:4 174:6 177:10,13,22 179:19 183:18 184:2,7,9 185:4,11 186:7,20,22 189:14 190:9 193:7 194:21 196:7 197:6,7 198:22 199:10 200:6,20 202:11 204:3 214:22 218:14 219:6 image177:5 imaginary22:9 imagine 50:1 67:15 101:7 imagined 187:12 immediately84:11 85:3,6 177:17 impact19:1 90:13 175:4 188:18,20 impartiality28:1 impasse 172:8,18 implementation 44:16 implications 180:20 implies 117:13 120:11 important19:21 24:7 28:4 30:21 89:2 96:16 133:3,18 198:21 203:16,18 207:5 impose25:14 192:5 imposed 23:1 103:17 imposing 114:13 192:14 impression 9:8,12 18:22 160:9 187:5 improvement 159:16 inaccurate 75:4 Inc 2:17 3:4,9,10,13,18,1 9 incentive 106:21 incentives 108:8,15,16 125:2 include20:20 68:11 74:22 included 19:22 137:15 161:22 includes 37:3 74:19 including 108:11 112:14 140:16 inclusion 10:18 incorporate 150:11 increase 124:20 207:13 increasingly 203:18

### Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Committee Meeting 08-26-2013 Page 21

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 incur 15:16 incurred 15:20 indeed 51:6 64:4 Independence 1:7 independent30:17 31:1 32:8,10 35:5 45:12,17 50:4,6,22 51:4 64:15,20 65:3,4,9 70:8 210:7 independently 56:22 indicate 120:3 indicates 179:7 indicators 203:15 indirectly24:21 individual 188:20 individually 31:3 induction 12:18 154:13 163:14 industrial16:11 Industries 3:9,18 55:17 industry2:9 11:20 17:1 19:1 20:11 21:7,8 25:20,21 26:4,5,18 27:1,3,8 28:5 40:1,5,7 95:1 97:16 100:12 111:2 152:6 181:13,14 189:3,6 204:6 205:4 207:1 industry's 15:16 42:7,17 infer 132:22 influence 188:16 information 5:11 6:7,10 8:10,11,14 29:12 30:4 39:22 43:8 45:10 59:8 75:17,18 82:3 92:5 107:21 108:9 121:18 122:5,9,11,15 170:9 172:15,19 173:3 180:15 183:5,11 195:17,18 197:2 198:15 215:11 inhabit204:19 inherent48:3,5,12 in-house 51:1 initial 18:20,22 20:20 122:20 184:4 initially11:6 20:16,21 95:21 176:21 innovative 204:21 in-person 18:3 input 19:8 40:1 54:6 61:12 127:8 129:21 153:19 input/output 146:9 inserting 116:9 119:1 inside 177:8,10 inspectors 73:10 105:8 install 38:3,7,12 54:9 installation 105:6 installer 122:16 instance 107:7 instead 55:3 187:22 191:7 institute 2:12 102:18 instructed 176:21 instruction 67:2 instructions 113:12 instructs 43:2 instrumentation 33:16 54:19 integrity15:10 89:6 Intel177:8,10 intended 159:22 160:10 intent119:7 160:10 215:6 intentionally99:2 interest26:12 32:17 221:10 interested 106:20 107:1,2 208:20 interests 21:9 international 30:11 44:19 Intertek 4:4 113:15,16 introduce 188:1 introduced 87:5 invariant 104:6 inventory 128:7,10,16 131:14 136:6 139:19 212:9 investment158:13

invisible 188:6 involved 29:4 85:3 105:10 124:13 208:6,12 involvement55:13 iron 112:10 irrespective 182:11 isn't20:21 53:22 106:16 107:1 122:6 126:20 127:13 144:20 183:15 ISO 30:14,17 32:12 37:18 41:7 43:5,10,12,14 51:15 88:2 issue 6:6,17 9:15,20 10:3,4 13:9,11,18 16:16 69:17,18 137:1 144:21,22 151:19 161:12,13 171:13 173:6,19 176:4 180:3,22 189:20 191:1 192:22 194:8 202:12,20 204:5 issues 7:8,10 10:10 16:15 18:18 97:4 99:11 121:6 127:6,15 130:10 136:8 141:21 147:14 172:9,10 176:4 217:12 it'd 135:12 items 68:1 215:1 iterations 141:14

### Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Committee Meeting 08-26-2013 Page 22

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 it's 13:4,5,10,13,15 14:1,21 18:20 19:20 22:21 23:12 26:14 27:22 28:4 31:4,9,11 35:7 37:7,8,10 38:4,9,13 40:12,14 46:20 48:5,7,12,19 49:3 52:9,16,20 53:8 55:8 58:8 59:1,3,4 62:16 64:2 65:3 68:7 69:13 70:8 71:5,12 72:22 73:2 77:3 83:5 85:4,7 94:9,10,13 95:7 96:13,17 100:8,22 104:11,15 105:14,21 107:17 108:18 110:4 111:9,19 112:17 114:16 115:7 118:5 119:15,17,18 120:4 123:11 124:16 126:3 127:7 132:17,19 133:18 135:12 140:1 145:9,10 146:22 148:14 149:10 150:7 151:3,17 152:7,19,21 155:1,10,11 156:2,15 158:4,13 159:19,20 163:3,4 164:14,15 165:5 166:5,7 167:8 168:3 169:2,7 172:20,21 175:20 176:22 177:12,21 178:2,5,10,12,13 ,16,22 179:1,5,9,11,12, 13 180:14 181:6,7,8,17,19, 22 182:11 184:11,13 185:15 187:2 188:3,4,5,22 190:5 193:1 194:17,18 196:1,7,19 200:11,12,19,20 201:11 205:4 206:2 207:22 211:13 212:8 213:5,16 217:1 I've 8:16 9:20 16:6 46:2 73:9 94:15 100:2,11 106:17 111:19 123:19 127:14 130:3 156:14 190:22 211:8 213:4 219:14 J Jakobs 158:19,22 159:2 160:16,21 161:4 162:2,6,9,22 163:15 164:20 165:3,22 166:11 167:12 168:2 169:17,22 170:17,21 171:2 Jeff 2:14 3:6,15 17:7 21:1 23:2 120:22 122:21 123:18 136:11 141:13,21 190:3 195:10 214:4,18

Jeff's 144:7 Jill3:3 129:4 145:3 155:7 209:8,9 220:4 Jill's 66:17 job 56:21 100:3 John 3:4,13 101:5 133:17 Johnson 3:5,14 150:22 151:4 170:2,6,12 186:13 204:9 205:9 join 108:15 joint153:3 Judd 4:2 July159:5 160:4 jumps 147:16 Justice 103:6 justified 115:7 justify 192:14 K Karen 3:7,16 36:15 37:12,21 40:9 42:6 103:10,14 122:17 154:7 171:10 173:7 176:2 189:1 Karim2:10 15:22 24:1,10 26:20 28:8 30:1 63:8 82:16 86:1 89:2 90:3 94:17 95:13 96:5 107:16 109:12 111:13 125:5 132:16,21 134:15 166:22

167:5 187:1 193:17 194:9 195:3 206:9 207:18 217:16 Kent3:10,19 kick219:10 kinds 127:6 211:10 Kleiss 3:6,15 123:18,22 124:3 136:11 141:13 195:10 214:4 knew 47:4 know-how 45:10 knowledge 46:14 52:1,3 65:20 100:13,16,21 knowledgeable 47:12 50:13 L lab 20:6 23:7 34:9,10,20 35:8,11,16,22 36:18,22 37:4,5,8,16 38:5,9,13,14 39:4,11,21 40:11,13,18 41:5,7,15 44:5 47:22 49:5,8 84:15 88:2 111:1,7 115:22 116:1 168:22 label116:15 117:7 120:11 177:8,9 labeled 176:6 labels 177:6 laboratories

### Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Committee Meeting 08-26-2013 Page 23

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 2:18,22 30:16 35:5 50:3,5 51:22 69:15 91:7 laboratory30:18 32:12,16 33:7 36:10 40:3 50:6,22 51:4 64:15,20 65:3,4,9 77:17,20 113:10,12,13 laboratory's 113:13 labs 20:5 24:22 29:17,18 34:13,14 41:17 43:5 45:2,4 46:8,19 49:10,11,18,19 65:14 100:15 lack 89:4 language 127:21 145:7 148:15 180:19 195:21 196:6,12 197:11 201:22 large 60:10 62:22 68:12 69:20 70:5 72:12 103:20 104:21 107:18 117:14 180:4 207:3 208:11 largely169:8 larger5:22 98:7 104:12 108:12 150:11 208:13 last5:4,8 6:11 29:11 39:15 49:7 78:12 83:3 85:17,20 86:12 118:9 159:3 165:16 177:4 218:1,3,19

lasted 60:21 late 6:20 7:8 Lately83:7 later12:16 18:19 23:15 31:19 Laura 2:7 4:10 5:6 17:8 21:3 48:12 56:2 66:2 70:11 71:18 97:1,18 117:9 137:5 139:22 144:19 170:3 174:6 180:5 197:8 199:2 200:5 203:6 204:9 216:2 217:4 Laura's 14:15 law 48:21 lawsuit180:13 lawyer 47:10 lawyers 24:19 learn 70:10 learned 42:4 learning 42:22 lease 165:17 least73:4,5 94:1 101:9 113:22 114:18 126:17 128:2 151:11 169:15 181:1 195:9 197:12 199:22 204:10 217:13 leave 8:17 202:3 205:10 leaves 171:9 legal24:7 25:1 192:11 195:16 197:9 203:9 legally192:3 legislation 177:1 Lennox 101:5 less 13:16 57:2 66:9 68:3,18 109:16,19 116:17 131:21 166:17 182:1 194:5 212:12 lesser114:14 let's 12:17 32:7 45:4 61:9 71:2 91:6,19 113:20 115:20 130:4 150:17 155:20 156:15 letter19:19,22 27:17 120:20 level23:9 25:15 33:8 42:6 54:11 68:3 81:2 82:18 87:18 88:11 92:10,14 97:12 107:8 109:10,21 110:17 112:5 115:8 116:8 117:4 118:22 119:10,20 137:14,20 138:1,3,7 149:18,20 174:12 191:4 193:4 194:3 195:13 205:15 levels 86:17 137:19 169:9 200:7,12,13 207:4 212:4,10 213:7 licenses 38:6

life 133:7 134:2 204:5 likely 78:19 146:22 limited41:9 158:15 limits 57:20 line 31:7 56:7 61:10 63:6 123:20 lines 17:2 61:8 109:6 192:1 206:6 208:1 list39:12 112:19 116:21 121:12,14,22 122:7,8,10 123:8 131:2 150:1 178:19,20 179:1 182:17 187:18 191:2,6,11 198:17,19 201:2,6,8,11 202:20,22 203:2,3,8 204:5 214:13,16,17 215:9 listed 30:7 76:3 176:7 177:16 190:1 listen 104:4 171:18 listened 100:2 listening 17:19 listing 19:12 63:9 75:19,20 92:4,16 117:19 137:7 182:14 190:20 listings 19:12 118:14 120:10

### Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Committee Meeting 08-26-2013 Page 24

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 126:5 lists 121:2 198:17 200:5 literally157:19 literature 56:19 little 7:15 16:10 24:15 31:19 37:10 48:19 69:19 136:9 145:2 155:8 173:8 177:13 191:22 200:1 204:3 209:6,7,10 214:3 217:2 LLC 2:18,22 load 107:11 Lochinvar 3:6,15 123:18 136:11 141:13 195:10 214:4 long 7:21 23:20 27:15 31:12 42:8,12 90:21 92:22 95:10 105:20 133:12 134:2 141:19 154:19 172:13 212:8 216:15 longer98:20 loop 117:5 lose 113:19 loser82:13 lot8:2 22:8 24:18 31:15 45:6 47:12 53:5,17 100:20 106:21 108:7 111:21 112:13 122:8,14 123:5,12,14 126:14 131:12,15 132:5 136:7 138:20 141:20 157:21 158:3,6 171:19 185:6 211:8,9 lots 102:21 128:11 loud 96:11 loudly 18:14 Louis 4:3 51:8 106:4 109:2 126:10 128:17 197:14 love 205:4 216:5 low 115:20 116:8 130:2 147:9 157:1,3,9,17 lower 57:1 68:3 82:20,22 108:4 110:5 113:19 159:9 162:10 167:15 lunch 24:14 90:20 91:1 130:1,13 140:6 luncheon 130:5 M mail5:14 220:9 maintain 13:14 92:16,21,22 maintained 124:8 maintaining 149:20 major 176:16,19 majority 9:14 209:11 manage107:13 Management2:20 manager80:11 mandated 175:17 mandatory17:5 95:15 102:15 109:10 129:16 manner6:17 13:6 205:1 manual36:20 42:11 43:1 74:16 80:20 manuals 37:17 74:1 111:20 112:4 manufacture 14:22 51:11 72:14 119:16 manufactured 96:20 manufacturer 17:22 18:21 19:2 20:12 24:17 25:2,6 28:3 32:2 33:19 34:13 35:19 38:2 39:5 41:11 42:7 45:8 46:4 47:21 48:3,8 49:11,19 50:11,19 52:3 56:16 61:9 67:9 70:16,21 71:5,7,22 72:11 81:21 88:2 90:11 93:9 98:9 99:17,19 100:15 102:15,20 107:7 110:20,22 114:2 117:1 120:5 133:5 137:12,17 149:4,6,14,17 151:15,17 153:7 161:8 167:14,22 168:8,9 173:4 178:20 179:3

181:7 182:11,14,21 187:20 190:5,6,10,14 191:10,13,17,21 196:4 199:15,19 201:17 202:4 207:8manufacturerbased 23:19 manufacturers 5:9 6:5,7,8,19,22 7:22 8:2,10 9:9 11:8 16:7,18 17:11 18:14 20:4 23:6 25:12,15 27:15 41:22 46:2,19 55:12 58:4,10 60:7,15 61:8 68:10,11 69:2 72:12,17 73:5,6 75:16 76:9 90:7 95:4,5,8 98:3,6,8,15,22 100:22 106:2,7,11 113:17 115:14 120:9,15,19,20 121:3 125:1 128:19 129:5 131:9 132:2 135:20 145:14 146:8 147:1 150:1 151:8 152:22 166:1 168:19 172:19 178:10 182:15 183:2 184:4 185:17,19 186:4,5 191:6 196:1 201:2 203:22 204:20

### Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Committee Meeting 08-26-2013 Page 25

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 209:12 211:3,19 219:18 manufacturer's 34:2 35:11 50:8,16 51:3 64:16,18,21 70:1 113:11,15 138:2 167:9 173:16 Manufacturers 17:13 94:5 116:3 manufacture's 52:2 manufacturing 3:2,7,16 23:6 24:19 47:11 99:12,13 100:10 115:14 207:3 map 203:18 Maranton 4:11 mark 2:19 56:20 77:2 210:3 212:11 market 56:10,14 101:12 109:17 110:20 116:14 125:1 126:6 131:11 188:10 203:19,21 204:20 210:18 211:1,3,8,11 marketable 135:14 marketing116:16 175:1 178:2,5 198:7 marketplace15:14 16:11,12,13 94:3 100:5,18 101:3 116:10 119:2 128:21 173:21 175:1,5 188:16 204:10

Marshall 79:16,17,18 123:19 124:12 125:6 Mary2:16 19:7,18 22:5 23:17 27:6 28:8 35:18 43:10 64:1 201:21 Mary's 30:3 60:1 mass 103:21 match135:11 148:9 maternity

8:16 matter 81:22 152:7 159:19 176:18 205:2 matters 65:19 202:14 maximum 130:21,22 207:7,19 may 10:2 12:19 13:12 16:10 18:7 21:9 38:6,7,10 40:10 42:21 49:2 54:7 61:10 72:17 91:10 104:16 115:16 121:5 122:18,19 131:17 132:15 147:15 148:19 158:2 171:15 173:22 174:1,2 186:19 187:4 190:13 191:3 208:16,17 maybe7:5,15 12:15 24:2,8 36:16 37:22 40:8 41:15 45:5 69:19 84:14 94:13 96:5 104:11 107:18,20 109:4,12 114:16 115:6,10 121:18 123:22 136:2 159:21 175:1 186:17 188:10 214:2 215:10 McQuay3:5,14 mean11:3 12:6 13:3 14:5,6 23:12 24:7 28:12,17 33:1,10 34:7,12 35:18,22 36:1 37:3,17 38:17 39:10 40:16 41:18 43:22 44:2,22 45:1 47:17 48:9,20 49:2,19 51:12,14 53:17 63:4 77:15 79:11 84:19 94:19 96:8 109:3 111:8,18 115:17 119:4 122:7,12 123:15 126:13 134:17 138:16 149:3 151:16 152:5,11 158:17 160:10 161:16 163:10 164:5,15 165:4 169:5 178:2,6 184:21 185:1 192:7 193:15,16,17 198:1 201:10 203:1 205:13 209:17 211:7 214:16 meaning119:8 183:7,22 202:21 meaningfulness

191:20 means 31:6 39:3 51:4 123:14 127:12 145:22 150:19,20 153:17 158:12 160:18 162:6 164:5 165:19,20 203:2 meant20:16 27:17 62:4 97:11 mechanism69:1 mechanisms 114:11 medium207:3 meet 25:9 37:2,8 38:15 69:2 89:18 101:19 102:9 105:11 107:8 108:17 114:1 116:7 119:9,17,21 137:13,17 144:5 161:11 184:6 198:11 202:10 211:20 214:2 216:15 meeting1:4 7:13 20:7 29:11 39:16 119:13 144:14 192:6 199:22 209:16 210:4 215:13 220:20 meetings 5:9 8:19 11:8 17:10,15,16 136:16 218:7 meets25:3 26:13 64:4 89:8,10 101:19 111:16 115:14

### Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Committee Meeting 08-26-2013 Page 26

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 member114:5 members 26:12 97:21 114:4,22 115:3 179:21 186:14 205:19 mentioned 11:9 28:2 46:16 63:18 Mercedes 206:14,15 merge19:16 177:6 199:1 merger 94:6 mesh 108:22 met 6:4 81:16,20 89:18 107:14 143:20 203:3 metal 15:3 meter 181:18 method47:18 146:9 Meyers 3:7,16 36:15 37:21 40:8,18 48:16 49:12 103:9 117:9,12,16 122:17 152:13 154:7 158:19 164:7,14 171:1,10 173:7 174:14 175:14 177:21 180:22 189:1 197:4 199:4 Michael4:12 microphone 63:14 82:14 91:2 136:14,17 141:9 142:10 153:11 154:3 155:3,5 190:18 209:22 214:1 216:1,9,14

middle 189:18 middleman 45:3 Mike 4:4 11:5 14:1 154:7 155:8 160:8 Mike's 171:4 million 5:21 25:21 30:12 61:12 104:13 196:2 millions 81:6 188:15,21 mimicked 126:14 mind 21:3 32:17 78:11 132:7 145:1 177:5 mine182:2 minimum25:3,14 26:13 63:17 64:11,22 66:6,8 71:20 72:18 73:4 83:1 86:2,3,9 89:3,7 90:5,9,13 113:21 119:10,14,17,22 130:16 131:8 135:14 138:7 158:17 181:13 199:16 200:9 201:8,12 202:11 203:4 207:7,11,15,20 minimum/ maximum 130:14 minimums81:15 minus 211:11 minute40:21 52:9 minutes 91:4 103:19 206:16 218:16 mischaracterize 28:16,17 mischaracterizing 28:9 misleading 178:16 198:4 miss 7:15 missed77:2 missing 45:6 173:5 Mitsubishi2:17 123:4 178:18 184:19 188:8 198:14 201:1 206:5 mix153:13 mixed68:11 Mm-hmm85:18 mode74:12 75:16,17,21 76:4,8,14 model6:5 7:2 9:18 10:4,16,19 12:7 28:14 29:3,4,6 31:7,9 56:7 59:9,21 60:3,8,18,19 61:3,6 62:4,5,12,13 63:1,6,10 66:10 74:5,22 79:2 81:15 86:18 87:3,7,8,9,12 99:9,17 118:2,4 132:6 134:12,13,20 137:10 146:14 154:15,16,19 155:19 156:7,15,16,20

187:22 195:5,6 199:7,18 201:18,19 207:6 208:14 212:13 models 29:8 58:10 63:21 70:22 117:13 121:2 131:2,4 135:6,10 155:21 157:2,5 207:7 212:13 modes 74:12 modified 124:16 Molvie 3:8,17 6:1 14:20 15:9,11 68:15 69:11 96:15 102:1 128:5 133:22 Molvie's 92:18 Monday1:12 monetary

31:21 74:21 76:14,17 money26:2,5 102:8 108:19 123:13 178:4 181:16,19 monitor74:10 monitoring 118:8 months 83:8,10 84:3,4,5,6,8,16 85:7,20 158:2 194:20 morning7:6,11 17:8 20:8 100:2 145:15 164:11 170:7 208:22 211:21 213:19 214:8 215:22 216:8,11,16 217:2 219:17

### Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Committee Meeting 08-26-2013 Page 27

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 220:1 morning's 130:10 mostly132:17 145:5 206:5 motor 6:4,5,8,14,19,22 8:1,10 9:9,17,19 10:10,17 11:7,10,11 12:17,18,20 13:11,17,20 145:13,18,20 146:1,3,8,19 147:2,4,8,12 148:1,19 149:2,3,8,11,17, 19 150:8,18,19,21 151:7,9 152:8,22 153:6,21 154:12,13 155:10 156:6,7,11 157:7,13 158:9 159:9,11,12,17 161:6,7,9,10 162:1,10,11 163:5,8,10,13 165:17 166:4,8,10,13,17 ,18 167:8,13,15,20,2 1 168:19 motors 5:3 6:8 7:19,22 10:1,2 11:2 13:22 14:3,10,14 144:22 146:5,20 148:10 150:1,3,4 152:14,17,19 153:13,15,22 154:11,18,20 155:14 159:21 160:11,18,22 161:10,14,19 162:18,21 163:1,12,14,18,1 9,21 164:1,2,18,19 165:3,13 166:15,19 167:5,8,10 168:22 169:8 move8:7,8 72:3 77:20 126:13 138:21 176:13 204:5 207:15 208:1 moved103:19,20 movement163:20 moving205:7 multifactor131:19 multiple 74:9 76:13 77:1,4 86:17 mustard69:4 mutually13:7 Myers 3:9,18 52:8 55:16,20 92:3 118:1,12 119:7 127:3 128:1 129:12 137:3 140:8,14,19,22 141:4,8 172:7,20 199:4 213:8 218:9,13 myself 19:4 N NAFEM17:12 nameplate171:3 National2:14 17:7,12 21:2 23:3 105:7 121:1 190:4 natural67:5 NAVIGANT 4:9 nearly123:2 necessarily22:20 23:11 40:4,22 45:15 47:19 51:16 55:14 59:4 62:4 75:20 98:18 99:6 106:22 107:4 109:7 191:7 necessary97:19 192:15 NEEA4:3 106:4 109:2 126:10 128:17 197:14 negotiate 169:10 negotiating 82:15 140:5 negotiation 7:2 131:4,17 negotiations 19:22 Neil2:3 7:5 96:6 180:22 neither89:9 221:7 NEMA6:10,11 14:1,7 145:13 151:1,7 153:17 165:3 169:20 171:11 network65:8 nice 73:11 120:19 night 107:14 nobody 7:7 54:8 91:1 100:13 102:22 103:2 132:22

Nobody's 100:12 nominal61:15 171:4 nominated 172:22 non 99:9 146:3 147:22 183:13 186:14 non-base 13:16noncommissioned 213:14 non-compliant 99:5 non-covered 148:3 none 134:7 181:17 NOPR 17:18 nor26:10 104:13 221:8 normal78:17 normally54:12 73:1 notation 199:7 notch 93:6 94:4 note 204:19 nothing 16:7 18:21 104:10 133:20 161:16 179:6 183:16 notice 72:17 83:22 notifications 111:6 notified 112:8 notifying89:3 not-so-nice 120:20 now's 17:19 NRCan 21:11

### Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Committee Meeting 08-26-2013 Page 28

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 NRCanada 19:12 nuances 113:8 174:21 181:20,21 number's 202:13,14 Numbers-wise 134:14 nutshell 15:6 O object40:4 120:2 192:21 objections 91:3 objectives 26:9 obligation 14:2 25:1,7 65:17 obliged 172:11 obsolete 74:4 obviously7:1 19:8 21:13 23:6 34:12 38:21 61:14,17 67:12 90:9 91:22 97:11 98:19 106:6 135:13 199:7 occasionally 58:20 120:18 177:5 occur193:16 occurring 96:18 occurs 122:20 o'clock130:3,4 OEM 209:14 offer 45:19 46:1,9 47:6 offered 46:13 offering47:8 offers 26:11 office 174:18 officer 93:11 official8:3 offline 8:3,6 oh 73:18 77:8 78:21 84:10 143:19 161:1 220:3 Ohio 107:9 oil-fired 140:9 OM53:13,14 one-by-one 112:19 one-off 101:9 one-offs 103:16 210:10 onerous 72:1 ones 62:15 68:5 139:14 151:12 166:14 197:15 209:19 212:2 214:14 one's 165:10 one-sided 104:7 ongoing 15:5,17,19 19:15 27:4 96:22 102:3,11 132:2 187:21 188:5 online 74:17 80:20 81:8 108:9 on-off 103:17 onsite 35:2 on-site 41:5,22 onto 103:21 open 38:21 47:11 81:2 131:3,22 150:18 152:16 154:6 operating 44:16 operations 36:20 42:11 74:1,16 80:20 111:20 112:4 operator's 43:1 opinion 25:1 30:4 173:15 opportunities 172:13 opportunity 101:16 129:18 172:9 oppose 192:8 opposed 6:2 17:5 78:9 102:3 123:16 179:19 192:17 opposing189:17 opposite 9:11 173:9 optimum206:21 option 23:9,20 26:19 74:7 119:3 197:16 optional 129:17 135:13 options 74:21 94:16 order39:21 46:20 64:14 68:13 94:11 128:12,14,16 149:21 176:22 177:19 201:3,5 202:10 210:10,17 213:11

organization 39:6 48:14 organizations 44:20,21 origin 177:15 original 16:20 20:18 21:19 originally 98:3 99:20 originated 46:17 others 56:17 64:16 68:6 70:15 86:19 116:8 118:17 147:15 215:11 otherwise 26:17 27:3 36:5 44:9 ought92:8 104:11 113:22 ours 29:17 123:3 135:15 ourselves 101:22 outline 136:12 outlined 19:19 output153:19 outside 43:4 58:11 64:5 75:8 185:20 189:2 191:21 overall96:7,13 209:11 overlaps 141:15 overs 167:2 oversees 44:21 oversight88:3 210:7 overwhelmed 204:15

### Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Committee Meeting 08-26-2013 Page 29

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 P p.m130:5 144:15,16 220:18 P2S 3:10,19 package 67:5 136:16 140:16 146:14 packaged 68:2 padding217:8 page 20:14 95:17,18 pages 42:12 paid 24:5 pain 71:6 paper214:15 paperwork201:10 parallel 132:4 parameters62:1 participant 32:6 57:15 74:8 75:7 79:22 80:1 86:14,22 184:1 participants 24:6 30:10 33:6 80:5 183:14 participant's 63:9 PARTICIPANTS 2:9 participate 17:19 64:3 68:17 103:11 118:20 119:4,6 129:13 209:13,14 217:10 220:2 participates 50:12 participating 52:2 56:16 61:1 182:16 183:3 participation 22:16 particular 52:22 76:10 90:13 122:13 204:4 particularly 10:14 30:18 43:15 parties 115:13 221:8 partner189:4 party34:9,10 39:4 45:12 93:22 190:14 201:5 208:6 pass 32:18 86:21 102:5 108:11 pass/fail121:8,16 197:15,19 pass/failure 88:17 passed 78:9,12 passes 75:13 78:3 passing 183:11 past138:21 194:20 path 104:3,19 196:12 paths 92:13 93:8 Paul2:17 123:4 178:18 184:19 185:5 188:8 189:10,22 198:14 200:22 202:20 206:4 Pause144:18 218:17 pay18:2 25:13 78:1 paying 78:6,7 106:7 110:2 payments 75:12 118:13 pays 24:21 77:16 78:2 82:13 peak 147:11 peas 177:12,13 penalties 31:21 74:21 76:14 77:1 108:10,20 193:12 penalty31:20,21 74:12,19 75:1,16,17,21 76:4,8,14,18 people 17:15,18 18:7,11 21:4,7 23:4,10 25:10 48:6,8,9,11 49:17 58:20 65:11 88:22 94:12 105:9 107:3 110:1 112:3 117:13 121:2,12 123:15 135:21 141:18 143:2 144:22 163:10 169:7 172:14 175:6 181:11,18 183:6,10 188:2 189:2 190:22 191:15 193:20 196:15 198:2 200:9,10 201:11 205:20 210:5,16 211:1 216:4 217:3,14 220:14 per10:21 14:7 61:16 106:10 151:15,17 152:9 153:7 161:9

perceive159:10 percent15:13 27:13 28:10,14,20,22 29:4 54:3 60:3 61:3 63:17,20,21 68:19 74:17 81:20 82:11 85:21 88:16 96:13 102:3 116:4 132:5 135:11,12 171:5 172:10 206:2 208:10 209:13 210:18 211:1,2,12 212:12,19,20 percentage75:15 77:22 78:4,8 81:15 96:7 208:14 percentages 132:13 200:18,19,20 Percentage-wise 131:1 perception 187:2 perfect133:22 134:1 205:6 perform37:9 42:18 43:2,7 performance 45:20 56:4,22 61:13 82:18 86:16 89:6 146:6 149:19,20 203:18 performing 99:19 performs 33:17

### Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Committee Meeting 08-26-2013 Page 30

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 57:2 perhaps 42:14 55:20 91:12 92:20 94:9,10 103:9 126:21 140:11 176:11 period 44:16 217:5 periodic 184:13 permissible 178:10 permit187:17 permitted117:6 person 6:1 49:17 117:20 170:10 personal 94:14 personnel 37:4 42:8 person's 215:9 perspective 38:18 110:11,21 123:10 124:1 133:18 138:18 141:16 183:15 188:2 persuaded 26:16 pertains 30:18 Pete6:1 14:20 16:6,9 68:15 69:5 91:19 92:18 94:12 96:15 102:1 107:18 128:5 Peter 3:8,17 15:9 Peterson3:10,19 193:14 PG&E 79:18 124:12 Phillip 4:5 45:18 56:12 63:16 79:15 82:17 102:13 179:14 215:5 phone 219:2,6 phones 18:11 phrase 127:15 213:11 physically 54:14,20 158:14 pick45:1 71:4 138:13 208:7 picked 99:10 picture 107:3 pictures 41:9 pie 104:15 piece 7:4 51:11 202:4 pieces 96:1 places 135:20 160:2 plainly120:14 plan 98:13 205:21 216:11 Plano 113:16 plates 168:2 platforms 133:7 play25:10 40:20 player15:13 players 15:18 27:9 playing 18:9 25:15 109:21 205:15 pledge 93:12 plenty26:5 plugging102:20 plus 211:11 PNL 181:18 point 5:19 8:19 16:8,22 46:21 47:2 59:20 64:7 76:11 81:7 86:10 89:2 91:10 103:2 109:4 110:22 111:13 120:6 122:2 129:17 146:6,17 148:14 158:18,20 159:4 160:14 177:2 180:5,6,8,13 182:6 189:2 194:22 198:21 202:19 203:11 212:17,21 213:5,7 219:2,3,7 pointed 100:20 196:1 198:22 points 27:20 81:10 183:17 policy175:3 176:18 pool213:15 portal125:19 portfolio 133:13 portion 194:7 position 14:18 15:6 114:22 145:16 171:13 173:11 203:8 positions 171:22 possibility7:6,8 10:14 19:15 182:20 possible68:7 125:1 154:11,14 158:7 170:13 215:1

possibly7:9,10 208:21 post195:17 197:13 posted 196:16,18 posting 195:12 potential123:6 191:5 potentially 138:21 198:4 practice10:21 12:10 practices 11:20 40:13,18 pre 71:8 preapproved 34:3,6 51:3 precedent176:9 precisely39:20 precision 96:20 predicting 125:13 predominant 167:22 preferences 176:10 preferred 177:18 preforms 108:18 premise13:9 24:16 25:19 40:21 46:7 premises 43:5 present27:20 29:12,17 43:9 75:3 80:13 172:11 presentation 55:18,22 110:12

### Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Committee Meeting 08-26-2013 Page 31

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 171:11 presentations 91:8 presented 28:18 29:1 31:2 56:20 64:12 presently19:12 29:5 presents 126:11 preserve119:18 pressure 9:19 presumably58:3 presume166:17 presumed158:3,6 pretty16:6 45:11 59:1 100:3 126:1 151:3 165:16 176:9 prevents 198:7 previous 22:2 164:7 previously 20:15 46:16 49:9 63:8 134:10 primarily30:3 primary22:20 90:8 124:4 principle15:15 106:14 principles 26:4 print196:19 prior94:5 probably 12:5 55:5,11 62:14 100:5 101:11 105:16 108:4 133:11 136:12,16 157:21 172:10 187:11,13 199:3 205:18 206:20 208:10 210:17 probation 74:11 problem 13:2 14:3 68:16 100:19,22 117:18 128:20 147:13 150:2 155:18 164:17 165:21 195:8,11 202:2 206:13 problems 54:6 98:16 147:14 procedure 41:6 47:18 68:10 69:7,12,16 78:17 85:10 109:8 145:19 146:4,7,12,19 147:3,5 148:8,15,21 150:9,19 151:11,16,18 152:6,10,16,20 153:1,7,20 154:10 155:1,2,11,15 156:5 157:2,10 158:8,11 162:5,14 163:7,12 167:7 168:17,18 169:3,12 procedures 39:19 51:13 55:2 69:6,9 85:5 173:13 174:11 181:2 proceed 75:11 216:11 proceeding 221:3,4,5,7,9,10 process 31:18 32:5

44:22 64:9 69:9 79:4 80:8,19 84:19 85:3,8 86:11,13 93:4 99:12,13 101:17 122:19 173:22 174:1 181:5,6 182:1,20 185:1,8 192:22 processes 96:3 173:18 procure 174:19 procurement 208:3 produce 74:4 produced 104:12 producing 208:16,17 product14:6 25:2,4,14 31:15,16 32:3,7 33:17 43:16 45:13,19 46:5 50:11,16 51:6 52:2,16 56:17,21 57:1,10 58:12,13,14 59:10 60:2,4,12,16,19 61:7 62:10,15 64:4,6,12,14,17 65:1,5,11,20 67:5 68:20 69:8 70:4 71:10,15 74:3 75:13 77:21 78:3 79:12 83:16 86:15 87:9 93:18,20 94:2,14 97:4,5,7 99:18 100:14 101:22 102:12 108:10,16

115:14 120:4,10,13,17 121:22 122:11,13,15 125:8 127:7 129:11 133:6,9,13 134:2 135:15,22 136:2,3,5 137:15 138:6 139:10,20 140:2 144:15 150:5 164:9 166:10 175:10 177:2,19 178:12 181:21 195:14 203:5,9 205:14 207:22 212:18,22 production 69:22 70:1,3 103:15,21 products 2:19 19:13 21:10 25:9 28:10,13,14,15 31:5,6,8,10,11,1 5,16 32:1,11 33:20 34:17,18 35:11,21 42:20 43:3 45:8 48:17 49:3 56:4,5,7,8 57:7,10 59:10,15,19,20 60:4,8,11,18 62:6,19 63:4 64:10,19 67:12,22 68:4,19,22 69:13 70:5 71:11 74:5 75:21 76:1 78:16,19 79:8 80:5 81:6 83:18 89:12,14 94:10 96:14,18,19 99:1,5,11 101:8

### Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Committee Meeting 08-26-2013 Page 32

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 102:6,21 103:1,13,15,17,2 2 104:6 105:6 112:7 115:16 116:1,7 117:8,19 118:15 122:9 123:16 125:7 126:5 127:5,8 128:10,11 129:14,16,18,19 131:13 133:12,21 134:1,3 135:19 136:6 137:13 138:16 140:9,10 150:7 154:17 171:16 173:10 176:11 179:16,17 181:3 184:5 185:7 186:9 189:12 190:1 198:17,19 201:13 203:14 204:21 210:17 212:9 213:20 professional 48:10,14 professionals 48:7 proficient 48:21 program5:12 16:2 17:5 20:12 21:17 22:16 23:1,20 24:5,8,13 25:7,20 27:4,7,19 28:7,9,12 29:13,15 30:22 31:6,8 32:4,6 33:9 35:19 37:5 38:11,20 40:6,7 43:1,13 46:17 50:12,15 52:21 53:12,13 56:5,9,16,18 57:6,8,9,16,17,1 9,22 58:9 59:22 60:15 63:19 64:1,2,6 65:22 75:7,8,9 76:13 80:1,11 86:14,18,19,22 88:5,16,20 92:10,11,12 93:8 94:9,19,20,21,22 95:3,10,15,16 98:2,5 107:17,19 108:15 109:1,4,5,11,15, 18,20 110:6,9,16 111:3,12,17,18 112:1,11,22 113:11,14,17,18 114:10 115:17 116:3,12,22 118:6,7,12,16,21 119:13,19,20 120:3,5 121:10 123:9 126:12,14 129:6,8,14 131:20 132:4,6 135:13 137:12,21 138:8 175:16,17 180:1 181:11,12 182:16,20,22 183:2,9,21 184:1,9,22 185:10 186:20 187:3,4 189:5,7 190:16 191:8,9,12,17,20 ,21 192:6,8 193:11 194:11,12,14,19 195:1 196:22 197:16,17 198:18,20 199:12,14,20,21 200:17 201:4

202:7 205:9 206:3,10,11,12,1 3 programs 17:1 20:2 25:13 26:11,18 27:16,21 29:5 30:5,7 33:5,19 34:1 44:14 50:2 56:11 60:9,22 81:11 87:3 108:9 124:18 125:21 132:18 176:15 183:8 185:20 186:3 196:17 200:8 206:6 209:15 progress 208:19 promising 215:3 proof 205:5 properly21:8 23:14 42:2 105:18 156:4 proposal 6:18 7:18 8:3 136:4 137:4 153:4 169:7,13 192:18 193:22 200:17 208:22 214:8,22 218:1,3,19 proposals 10:12 136:7,10 139:21 214:6,10 propose 104:2 153:17 proposed 105:11 150:15,17 152:12 160:4 199:5 219:8 pros 108:21 prose 104:3

protection 24:18 protocol67:19 proven 27:5 provide 5:11 6:7 33:13 36:9 39:1 40:5 43:18 46:22 85:6 86:15 118:13 145:14 158:1 169:15 183:4 provided 5:13 106:19 137:11,12,16 169:16 172:19,21 173:3 199:11,14,18,20 provides 113:11,18 providing42:17 54:6 103:7 108:15,16 116:15 170:9 provision 56:3 75:5 provisions 30:2,21 31:20 58:13 74:10 75:2 76:12 prudent 46:20 PSC 10:17 PSCs 11:13 PSE 12:9 public25:7 75:17,18 81:2 92:4,15 169:7 187:9 188:6 publically178:7 publicly81:12 publish 102:7

### Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Committee Meeting 08-26-2013 Page 33

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 121:7 122:1,4 published 172:21 publishes 172:18 publishing 121:11 122:22 175:21 180:15 pull 8:6 143:19 pumps 58:17,18 purchase 174:17 purchased 100:13 purchaser 203:17 purchasers 176:19 177:18 205:3 purchases 176:16 purchasing122:19 175:1 purpose 147:4,8 149:7,11 161:6,10,18,19 162:1 163:19 164:1,2,4 165:1 166:19 167:21 168:4,6,7 purposes 11:19 145:20 146:21 168:6 pursuant108:19 purview 102:14 push 80:17 pushing 94:20 puts 178:20 182:9 putting 108:9 PVI3:9,18 52:8 55:16 92:3 118:1 129:12 137:3 140:8 213:8 Q

qualification 30:19 32:5 86:13,21 87:20 88:7 124:7 qualifications 36:19 49:16 51:15 qualified 50:3,22 51:5,10 qualify41:16 88:5 124:11 149:21 154:18 quality 43:10 51:19,22 quantity 96:16 question 11:21 14:8 15:9 22:18 25:12 42:22 51:9 53:19,20 59:1 63:17 68:14 70:12 77:13 81:13 89:4 92:6 97:2,18 98:11 104:21 106:15 110:13 123:19 128:18 130:12,13 132:4,7,8 133:3 135:4 145:17 146:6,17 167:4 170:1 174:5 176:18 186:7 200:15 207:2 210:22 217:17 questioning 23:5 questionnaires 112:19 questions 5:15 10:7 14:13 55:21 58:21 87:1 88:22 90:16 111:9,21 112:20 113:3 136:12 137:1,5 141:20 145:15 170:10 171:8 187:1 204:12 208:21 quick21:2 190:10 quickly103:18 quite 73:22 134:8 168:21 quo 172:14 182:7 R radical188:2 raise 6:15 115:7 130:10 143:3 144:21 217:15 220:14 raised 19:4 23:12 91:18 99:7 123:8 143:5,8,11 158:20 176:18 177:2 raising 22:8 202:20 random 31:18 64:9 95:4 102:16 randomly99:10 114:7 Randy2:22 range 63:11 69:14 93:6 94:16 147:20 rant73:12 205:8 rate14:3 42:20 45:8 135:11,14 154:8 164:18 167:8 171:16 212:19

rated60:20 75:22 120:9 148:10,11 150:9 153:13,14 155:14 159:6,7 163:6 167:6 rates 31:22 74:13,14 76:13 78:15 90:2 107:21,22 212:5 rather18:18 64:4 68:13 88:16 167:22 198:5 205:1,11 rating 14:5 121:7,9 122:12 148:2 154:15,19 157:17 158:1 159:8,16 162:9 164:19 166:4 167:10,21 168:2 173:10,14,17,18 174:9 175:22 203:11 ratings 12:8 64:4 75:4,8 77:18 79:22 80:2 86:16 90:12,14 121:19 122:1 123:1 155:14 165:19 167:10 173:12,13 174:16 175:21 180:4,7,10 182:10 ratio 63:2 rational101:17 re60:19 90:1 179:22 reach 92:10 reached 33:7

### Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Committee Meeting 08-26-2013 Page 34

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 213:20 reaches 131:17 reaction 47:21 reactions 15:7 16:14 reading 17:2 79:1 162:8 199:10 reads 16:22 ready5:2 46:22 47:1 90:18 217:20 218:2,6 real9:20 13:18 21:2 28:21 131:10 187:14 190:10 204:19 reality99:10 182:15 realize 145:11 170:4 real-life 6:9 really10:3 11:21 28:11 29:10 47:12,14,15,16 57:17 68:16 69:12 71:14 83:18 88:19 99:4 100:7,8 106:13 116:12 121:10 122:15 123:7 127:4 128:20 131:19 132:4,19 134:5 139:6 145:4 148:7 150:7 157:8 159:15,16 170:2 181:17,19 187:3 189:5,17 198:5,9,11 reason 79:6 82:11 110:12 145:7 172:18

reasonable 76:5 77:18 92:14 rebate107:2 rebates 124:5,8,11 recall83:13 176:22 received16:16 17:14 81:20 122:3 recent82:21 recess 91:5 130:5 recessed144:14 recognition 118:18 200:8 203:14 recognize 118:10 137:11 recognized 118:5,7,17 119:12,20 137:21 146:4,7,12 recommended 139:9 169:12 reconvene 141:18 record144:16 221:7 recorded 221:4 Recurrent184:8 redesign 160:6 reduce 31:14 reduced 59:21 221:5 refer13:19 151:8 reference153:6 referred191:1 referring 22:1 51:17 57:7,8 95:2 112:12 125:6 reflected 182:17 refrigeration 2:11,14 16:18 17:8,10 91:18 refrigerators 49:1 60:1 regard 26:17 regardless 27:1 regime103:16 regs 58:19 59:5 regular63:10 regulated 57:10 166:12,13,15 regulation 58:22 148:20 176:16 regulations 21:16,20 22:2 24:18 42:10 59:6 99:3 187:17 regulatory 105:2,5,9 192:5,13 reinvent102:11 related 221:8 relationship 66:7 156:10 211:17 relative 102:2 146:5 154:20 162:20 relatively84:1 160:12 released 21:15 relegate150:4 relying 99:21 remaining7:10

remember82:12 107:7 203:13 remind220:14 removal 74:22 repeat154:8 replaced 94:1 report32:19 80:6,15 83:6,12 172:4 178:6 reported 1:17 83:2 Reporter 221:1,2,15 reporting 1:18 195:7 211:6 reports 75:10 77:19 80:3 represent61:8 100:8 106:2 representations 187:19 representatives 2:5 169:18 represented 138:15 representing 21:9 represents 147:13 reputation 205:4 request5:10 215:18 requested 46:2 92:6 107:10 requesting 217:9 requests 18:10 require 102:14 110:14 111:12 112:3 115:21

### Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Committee Meeting 08-26-2013 Page 35

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 145:9 192:16 required 18:1 22:16 25:8 42:6 51:22 87:3,18 91:22 110:4 119:6 124:7 129:19,22 181:14 184:4 186:4 192:19 requirement22:18 39:8 92:7 119:11,17 182:8 187:6,21 188:5 195:17 199:9,16 201:9,17 requirements 18:20 21:15 37:1 69:3 87:22 88:12,13 109:16,19 110:18 111:5 161:11 176:12 187:10 199:8 201:12 203:4 209:15,16 213:6 219:9 requires 43:6 122:4 requiring 118:20 re-rated31:17 re-rates 89:21 reserve91:11 208:5 residential 89:8 98:20 101:9 125:7,12,22 126:5 184:20 185:3,7,11 186:9 188:10 resolution 218:13 resolvable 172:10 resolve 172:8 resources 194:5 respect90:4 124:3 respond 18:17 23:14 response 91:14 123:21 129:3 172:3 176:17 220:15 responsibility 75:13 89:5 93:12 149:5,17 167:7,9 responsible149:1 rest151:11 194:13 205:21 result23:1 32:18 74:13 83:14 99:18 resulting 57:15 results 40:17 41:8 42:1 79:2 83:15 84:15 160:15 revenue 211:13,14 review40:16 137:14 138:3 210:7 reviewing 32:18 42:1 revised 145:6 revising 31:22 revision 104:16 reword 36:16 Rheem3:7,16 36:15 37:21 38:7,11 40:9 103:10 122:17 171:10 173:7 189:1

Rheem-trained 38:4 rid 162:13 rights 85:5,9 risk 103:3,5 Rivest4:12 9:13 11:5,19 12:3,13 13:2 14:1,11 147:17,21 148:3,7,13,19 149:7,12,14 150:8,14 151:21 153:12 154:2,5,10 155:4,6,13 156:1,9,12 157:4 158:3,6,16 160:8,17 161:15,21 162:4,8,12,17 163:9,17 164:4,12,16,22 165:18 166:1,16 167:1 road 175:2,3 196:13 Robert4:7 Ron 97:17 Ronald 3:22 room21:5,10 44:1 97:6 128:11 141:2 142:21,22 143:16 144:6,13 150:1 157:22 192:8 202:17 205:2 214:5 215:19,21 216:3,5,8 217:2,3,6 219:19 rooms 158:12,14 215:15 217:1

roughly 146:9 route 26:15 routes 73:7 routinely122:5 royal71:6 RTUs 67:16 rubberstamp 111:15 rule 31:5 56:6,10 57:4 71:20 108:13 109:9 152:13,16 192:22 194:2,7,13 rulemaking 1:3 20:19 150:18 192:9,18 220:19 rules 42:10 50:17 65:21 95:5 100:7 run 23:7 35:11,19,21 36:21 39:4,5,6 53:12 81:11 111:1,3 112:1 113:17 116:22 153:19 157:8,9 159:21,22 160:1 165:8 168:22 169:2 running35:8 41:6 49:5 50:1 112:11 130:2 132:17 147:10 Rusty72:6 131:18 218:21,22 219:1 220:4,12 Rusty's 219:6

### Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Committee Meeting 08-26-2013 Page 36

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 S Sachs 3:11,20 10:8 11:1,17,20 14:16 15:8 24:15 26:7 62:20 67:7,15,18 68:9 70:9 89:1,15 97:1,9,11 103:14 104:3 127:17 130:11 132:3,21 133:17 134:1,6 136:17,20 139:22 140:4 144:2 176:2 203:6 204:18 214:16,20 216:2 217:4,8,11 sack 72:22 safety24:20,22 46:12,17 92:22 sake 24:2 126:22 sales 102:10 204:1 sample33:15 64:10,22 66:6,8 67:1 74:7 132:10 samples 39:16 64:11 66:9,11,12,16 67:5 68:6,8,14 70:13,17,19 satellite 27:21 33:5 satisfactory 177:14 satisfy 180:19 saw 47:4 141:21 155:13 165:19,21 166:1 scale 161:9 188:9 208:12 scaling 9:10,22 10:2 14:4 146:2,13 154:12 160:9,11,14 162:14 scenario 102:20 scenarios 6:9 131:15 schedule 69:22 70:1,3,5,6 scheduling8:19 scientific 133:15 scope 16:20,21 31:8 43:21 44:3 56:5,9,17 57:6,8,19 58:9,11,15 129:8,15 scream117:22 screen 28:19 138:19 218:10,11 219:17 se 10:21 106:10 seal183:21 184:10 seats 130:7 144:17 second 7:14 31:4 35:3 67:19 74:7 77:5 84:11,21 122:18 138:1 153:12 155:4 172:5 177:2 198:19 203:12 Secondly 208:3 section 80:11 171:9 sections 118:3 secure65:1 secured 65:2 securing 65:22 seeing 55:9 155:18 184:9 196:8 204:4 seem8:9,12 62:22 136:8 184:18 seemed132:11 seems 10:9 100:2 104:17 106:6 121:1,4 126:13,16,19 130:2 133:8,14 171:6 191:22 201:1,22 seen 16:7 53:4,5 59:11 73:9 74:2 77:19 99:14 145:6,11 198:16 204:20 SEER89:8,10 segment 97:15 100:4,10,12,17 101:3 segments 213:1 segregation 191:19 select64:12,13 66:1 67:4 68:13 69:10,20 70:18 71:8 80:7 112:14,15 selected60:17 65:5 70:22 71:8 112:7,8,9 selecting 72:16 selection 31:18 60:3 64:9 70:7 74:12 210:7 212:19

selector66:6,8 67:3 70:13 71:4,9,11,21 72:4,13,18 selectors 64:21 65:7,8 self 117:1,5 181:7 self-certification 173:4 210:6 self-certified 179:16 self-directed 120:5 sell16:13 203:5,9 selling 175:9 send 39:16 70:16 79:2 80:9 89:16 112:18 113:4 120:20 169:4 201:18 220:3 sense 5:17 31:13 35:14,17 55:17 57:18 60:14 62:10 sent19:19 27:17 39:20 51:5 63:8 83:14 84:7,13 86:9 113:8 separable 10:9 separate 81:17,18 142:9 154:4 155:20 156:7,19,20,21 157:7 176:4 190:20,21 191:20 214:15 215:2 217:6 separately139:3 200:4

### Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Committee Meeting 08-26-2013 Page 37

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 separating 200:2 September7:14 series 56:8 83:13 137:1 serious 31:7 77:1 seriously 133:1 services 46:14 47:1 session 179:15 180:3 189:16 sessions 145:2 sets 47:5 49:1 138:5 setting 20:18 109:10 125:13 settle213:12 setup 33:15 41:10 54:14,16,18 55:6,8,12 setups 30:19 seven 85:20 several47:8 84:16 93:8 95:14 97:22 98:21 118:3 130:12 177:4 severe108:10,20 severely135:15 shaking66:17 share 173:11 219:2,3,7 sharpen 47:3 Shebik3:22 97:17 sheet214:15 215:10 sheets 159:3 shelf 71:7,12,13,16 she's 144:20

158:20,21 161:2 179:12 shift 99:13 188:2 shifting145:1 ship 64:15 shipped 64:14,19 65:2,3 shoot161:1 170:7 shopping 121:14,22 122:20 191:2 short14:18 shorter7:9 shot139:3 showed 83:17 showing 59:16 173:20 180:4 shown 182:2 shows 137:8 167:21 sides 173:9 206:8 significance 183:9 significant158:13 171:15 188:16,18 signs 93:12 similar61:13,18 63:11 108:1,3 120:16 127:6 173:12 175:22 185:2,13,15 similarly25:1 70:15 129:20 simple 128:6 153:18 202:9 simplest104:19 simplified 153:17 simply31:13 68:21 104:10 193:10 197:13 single 136:2 150:4 204:4 sit136:4 sitting 17:18 44:1 67:10,14 71:12,16 situ 107:13 situation 161:3 situations 67:20 131:16 six 60:2,4 73:1 85:20 size 57:18 58:1,4 69:14,18 73:7 76:17 94:13 127:7 207:20 sizes 10:15 57:16 63:11 132:10 206:22 207:3 skill 47:4 49:1,3 skirt99:3 slice 104:14 slide 30:8 59:16 77:6 78:22 86:12 112:6 136:16,21,22 145:7 218:18 slides 31:3 73:17 77:15 slightly 104:12 124:16 small11:11 68:18 138:10 142:22 201:9 207:3 208:11,15 211:21 214:9

smaller5:18 10:15 11:9 20:4 27:14 71:8 87:12 98:6,9 100:4 127:8 134:6 211:19 smallest142:20 143:1 Smith 4:2 so-called 58:7 sold 25:2,9 93:19 104:8 113:22 128:12 133:10 211:2,5 solely99:21 solution 10:6,21 130:9 197:19 210:20 solutions 104:19 solve 103:18 somebody46:21 49:15 70:6 100:14 102:19 107:7 121:8,10 133:19 169:21 190:7 191:10 218:19 somebody's 182:1 somehow120:11 someone15:21 34:8 35:1 39:13 41:5 70:16 75:8 93:11 102:5 116:16 188:13 somewhat61:18 208:15 somewhere5:20 138:22

### Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Committee Meeting 08-26-2013 Page 38

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 sophisticated 195:22 196:4 203:16 sorry26:16 32:21 51:20 66:2 78:18 83:3 86:4 96:11 130:11 149:11 150:12 160:8 213:4 219:7 sort29:14 33:8 61:7 74:18 79:6 87:21 101:12 105:12,15 120:7 125:12 150:4 177:6 178:9 182:5,7 sounded 5:20 sounds 20:17 106:5,9 184:15 200:7 208:18 216:10 source 58:17 124:4 137:8 space 142:18 211:19 215:13 span 127:20 spans 58:13 speak18:4 29:17 48:13 97:20 117:5 173:8 202:1,15 SPEAKER

63:14 72:8,9 73:15 91:2 92:2 139:8 142:10 143:17 144:8,11 212:6 216:12,19 speaking 187:8 spec 159:3 special64:20 specialty127:9 specific 10:4 14:9,11 17:14 29:7 49:1 51:11,13 60:10 80:22 131:10 136:12 139:20 159:20 165:8 specifically13:20 47:5 52:12,13 145:10 205:13 specifications 37:9 specificity 137:6 specifying9:16 165:13 speculatory64:7 spend 72:15 181:18 196:2,3 spending81:6 181:16 spends 25:21 spent26:3,5 123:12 202:16 split140:21 141:3 156:15 spoke 44:14 97:22 spoken 127:14 spokesperson 172:22 spot199:10 spreadsheet 131:19 171:4 201:19 stack 73:2,4 stacked 73:1,3 staff 82:8 stalemate209:5 stand 165:15 standard 20:18 25:3,9 26:14 43:18,19 44:19 50:14 52:21 53:9,11 68:20 89:4,18,19 110:5 113:21 114:1,5,6 115:4,5 147:1 148:1,2,14 156:18 157:1 159:5,8,10,20 161:7,9 167:16 173:15 175:9,13 176:14 184:6 202:11 standards 1:3 21:14 29:8 43:2 46:10,15 68:21 83:1,5 90:5,9,14 107:15 108:17 115:15 116:7 152:18 158:17 192:6,14,20,21 193:20 203:15 220:19 standpoint 46:12,13 133:5 194:10 Star19:12 20:1 21:11 25:11 44:8,10 126:5 176:11 186:16,17 189:4,5 Starr4:3 51:8,20 52:5,10,13,16,19 ,22 53:7,10,15,22 54:5,11,15 55:1,11 106:4,18 108:1 109:2,12 126:10 128:17 129:10 197:14

198:6 start5:3 10:3 17:16 49:22 53:6 97:12 105:22 138:22 139:4 140:1 141:16 147:18,19 167:10 172:6 213:18 214:8 217:13 started41:3 91:6 130:8 starting 126:21 136:8,21,22 169:21 170:11 182:6 212:21 starts 50:11 startup 105:4 state28:18 stated 20:1 statement

49:7 126:9 168:15 179:3 statements165:19 States 168:1 201:13 203:1,5 static9:19 12:9,19 147:2,4,7,9 148:1 156:3,8,17,18 157:1,3,5,9,17 158:8,9,10,13 159:6,11,12 160:12 161:6 171:2 statics 149:21 159:17 statistical132:10

### Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Committee Meeting 08-26-2013 Page 39

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 statistics 96:5 status 5:3 172:14 182:7 201:3 statute178:16 192:16,19 stay72:19 141:6 144:20 207:11 stayed 207:7 stays 193:21 Stem4:4 step 91:20 122:18,19 189:18 203:12 Stephens 4:5 45:18 46:1,6,8 47:2 56:12 63:16 79:15 82:17 88:19 102:13 103:5 179:14 215:5,8 stepping 93:6 94:4 sticking 28:22 stock 68:1 139:19 212:9 stocked 68:5,13 71:10 stockpile 71:22 stop 114:1 straddling11:10 straightforward 183:4 Street211:9 stringency86:17 92:10 111:17 187:3 stringent76:12 88:12,13 109:16 182:2 206:12 strong 32:4 60:22 75:3 stronger189:7 strongly26:18 structure125:3 struggle 98:10 struggling 13:4 200:6 213:10 studies 18:22 stuff 53:5 54:19 68:12 101:13 103:15 104:12,13 219:14 subcontracts 35:5 subject87:21 108:12 118:7 175:12 183:16 subjected 103:3 116:5 submit80:6 101:16 201:5,10 submits 185:9 submittal166:1 submitted 179:3 190:13 submitting 190:17 202:5 subsequent31:3 subtract215:3 subtractions 214:14 successful 125:12,16 sudden 109:17 suddenly174:22 sufficient107:11 suggest29:13 130:1 141:15 168:15 suggested 7:5 177:14 suggesting 26:12 119:3 140:12 suggestion 142:19 suggestions 104:4 214:5 suggests 133:19 suite 1:9 203:17 summary 14:15,18 summer 107:10,12,13 summing5:3 supervise 34:15,20 40:11 49:4,17,18 50:3,20 supervised 20:3 32:13,22 33:9,11,21 34:11 40:12 88:6 supervises 49:8 supervising34:12 40:13 49:10,11,12 supervision 33:13 35:9,13,15 36:1 54:11 supplemented 203:21 supplements 43:19 supplied 99:16 150:21 suppliers 99:14 152:8 171:20 supply178:13 supplying 56:21 57:1 support 5:17 16:6 21:6 26:10 47:7 95:9 102:2 122:22 193:9,13 195:5,6,11 supported 124:19 supportive 91:22 supports 26:18 94:18 supposed 114:19 116:12 159:15 202:22 219:7 sure 8:18 10:13 18:7 19:21 20:7,13 28:2 29:19 33:15,16 39:15 44:22 47:4 49:8 50:12 51:5 65:1,5 69:21 70:16 74:1 81:2 87:17 91:13 95:16 108:16 114:18 121:5 134:2 138:15 140:19 144:20 149:18 151:13 168:21 169:4 174:6 184:13 185:4 198:22 207:21 suspect16:10 106:1 SW1:7 swap 6:5 99:15 swapping 6:9 swearing 179:3 switch 12:8 13:12 141:18,19

### Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Committee Meeting 08-26-2013 Page 40

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 symbolic 203:19 system51:22 94:1 105:19 178:9 188:11 193:19 T table 11:2 18:18 23:11 33:6 74:16 136:10 194:22 206:8 213:9 tables 10:1 taking 33:22 72:14 156:6 200:2 203:7 talk 5:15 6:5 7:8,9 9:5 12:6 21:19 31:18 69:19 91:20 121:1 127:3 128:3 136:8 190:5 193:14 199:17 202:7 205:22 206:17 217:13,19,20,21 talked 28:19 30:13 56:3 75:6 127:1 131:14 136:7 146:18 165:22 183:1 206:17,19 207:4 208:3 209:6 210:4 talking 17:16 20:11,18,22 21:21 22:9,19 26:9 31:7 32:10,11,13,14 33:18 35:4 45:13 51:2 55:2 56:7,8 61:16 67:21,22 68:5 69:5,6,8,9,11 71:15 74:15 80:22 90:5,6 95:15 107:19 112:18 115:21 118:19 119:5,10 121:4 133:14 148:7 155:17 159:13 165:4,7 169:8 184:2 188:10,15 193:18 195:22 207:19 213:19 217:17 talks 168:16 tall73:1,3 tar205:3 taxpayer177:22 TEAO 154:6 technician 37:16 40:18 49:2 50:10,13 51:5,10,12 52:4,11 105:4 technicians 30:19 41:16 42:8,18 45:10,21 46:9,15 51:1 53:3,21 113:16 technologies 3:4,13 11:12 technology133:10 telecon 7:6,9 teleconference 219:22 ten 210:18 211:2,11 tend 140:3 tended 100:19 tens 76:20 113:3 term164:8 210:11,14 terminology 191:18 terminology-wise 95:17 terms6:13 30:10 75:11 86:20 97:15 101:3,19 128:14,21 139:11,21 163:9 172:14 territory25:22 test15:1 18:2,3 20:2 21:14 24:22 27:16 30:18 31:21 32:2,19 33:15 34:17,20 36:22 37:10 40:14 41:6,9 42:2,9,19,20 43:16 44:5 45:12,20 46:5,8,9 47:17,18,22 48:1,4,6,11,14,1 8 49:1,5,8,17,18 50:15 51:6 52:21 53:11 54:2,14,20 55:1,6,7 69:1,6,7,8,12,16 73:21 74:6,7,9 75:5,10 77:19,20,21 78:1,20 79:2 80:3,6,7,14 82:12 84:9,11,16,21,22 85:2 86:15,18 87:3 93:3 96:14 101:22 102:16,19,22 107:10,13 108:11,17 112:15 113:9

131:20,21 135:11,16 145:19 146:4,7,12,19 147:3,5 148:8,14,21 150:9,18 151:11,16 152:5,6,9,16,19 153:1,7,19,20 154:10 155:1,2,11,15 156:5 157:2,10,22 158:8,9,10,11,12 ,14 159:10,20 162:5,14 163:6,11 165:8,21 167:7 168:6,17,18 169:2,12 187:14 208:13 210:7 tested68:19 71:16 78:16 99:11 100:15 108:10 111:7 113:2 116:1 133:6 135:15 147:8 149:12 151:15 156:5 162:4,13,17 164:2 165:17,20 167:16 169:11 186:17 187:5,11,13 198:9 207:8 testify94:2 testing 5:10,11,18,22 6:2 13:18 14:19 15:5,17 16:19 19:14,15,16 22:7,21 23:7

### Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Committee Meeting 08-26-2013 Page 41

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 27:14 28:10 30:12,17 31:1 32:1,7,8,10,11,1 3,14,15 33:7,9,11,21 39:21 40:4 42:4 43:2,7 45:17 49:3,11 50:5,6,7,9,10,11, 19,21 51:1,2,11 60:17,18 61:2 63:17 64:12,15,16,18,2 0 70:2,5 76:2 78:16,17 79:3 85:13 87:18 88:1,4,5,8 91:16 93:10 95:21,22 96:10,17,22 97:3,18 98:15,19,20 99:22 101:7,11,14 102:2,3,4 103:4,11 106:6,10,14,16 108:12 109:4,5,8,10 114:7 115:11,16 116:5 128:15 131:8 153:7 156:3 163:15 173:5,6 174:11 175:13 184:4,7,9,12,13 186:9,11,15,19 187:10,21 188:5,7 192:20 193:12,15 194:3 201:10 204:13 207:6 212:5 testings 15:19 tests 30:11 31:14 34:15 40:10 41:13 43:9 46:16 49:20 59:22 60:5 68:21 74:20 76:15 77:6,7,16 81:14,18,21 82:9 83:13 85:15 86:21 87:21,22 93:16 99:6 114:8 135:1 193:13 201:18 TEVs 154:4 thank12:13 29:20 46:6 47:2 56:1,2 70:9 89:15 90:17 110:11 132:21 136:20 220:11,17 thanks 37:13 124:3 133:17 205:17 220:10 THARP 72:6,10 219:6,11,14,18,2 2 220:5,8,11 that's 8:8,15 9:15 10:4 12:1,5,7,18 13:4,7,13,16 14:3 15:5 18:15 21:7,17 22:1,8 23:20 25:3 28:18 33:17,21 35:18 36:13 37:12 38:14,22 39:13 40:1,2,22 41:7 42:16 43:8 44:6 48:19 49:4,19 50:19,20,21 51:1 52:10 54:12 55:10,11,13 57:3 58:11 60:13,14,20 62:17 64:2,6 66:20,21,22 68:12,14 69:17 70:9 72:2,3

73:5,22 74:9 77:8 85:5,12 86:16 87:11 88:9 89:10,12,15 92:5,7 101:10 103:15,20 104:12 106:16 110:12 112:1 113:18,21 115:6,17 117:9,12 121:10 122:15 123:15 127:4 129:11 132:7,18,20 133:3,9,15,17,20 134:16,19,22 135:3,4 139:16 143:9 147:5,16 150:10 151:6 153:10 154:2,22 159:10 160:5,13 161:6,7 162:18 163:5 164:10 165:14 166:12 168:20 169:12,13,15 170:2,4,15 172:20 174:3 176:9,17 177:19,20 178:3,14 179:4,12 181:8 184:21 185:11 186:12 187:6,14 189:8 190:2 193:5,7 194:16,20 195:15 197:2,19 198:5,21 201:11,13 203:1 204:14 209:12 theirs 29:18 44:22 190:2 themselves 95:5

theory143:14 thereafter221:5 thereby19:16 207:16 there'd 6:21 7:5 137:18 therefore 14:2 29:9 48:3 106:12 192:16,17 209:13 there's 6:20 7:7 8:3 10:20 13:9,11,22 14:5 15:20 19:14 21:17 22:18 23:7,8 25:6 26:14 29:2 35:8 37:4 41:19 44:15 53:12 54:11 58:20 66:11 68:20 72:22 74:15,16 80:19 85:8 88:15 92:4 96:20 97:22 99:20 100:6 105:7 106:9,15 107:2 114:18 115:5 121:12 128:16,20 132:3 146:2 153:18 156:9,11 159:10 163:2,17,22 164:20 166:8 168:2 169:17 178:9 184:21 185:8,21 186:2 191:5 200:8 201:14 205:20 208:6 they'd 18:1 they'll72:21

### Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Committee Meeting 08-26-2013 Page 42

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 73:3,7 they're 6:13 11:17 15:2 16:10,11 20:6 21:19 22:1 44:1,19 47:20,22 49:6 53:3,5,8,21 61:19 65:12 66:8,13 76:4,15 78:6,7 81:11 82:22 99:8 103:5,8 104:9 107:1 108:15,16 112:4 116:4,5 118:3 121:14 128:6,13 135:13 139:16 143:12,13 152:20 153:2,7,16 157:6 158:14 159:22 160:1 161:18,21 163:6 165:3,7 168:4 170:8 173:21 174:18 175:19 186:16 190:17 196:8 197:10,13,22 201:3 204:15 they've 53:4 61:13,18 100:18,19 106:19 182:11 thing's 105:20 third 39:4 93:21 140:11 153:14 162:2 190:13 201:5 208:6 third-party34:13 35:8,16,22 36:10 37:7 41:6 49:18 82:6 111:1 179:17 181:4 190:7 201:14 202:6

Thirty71:1 thoughts 108:6 128:4 179:15 197:1 thousand 188:11 208:17 thousands 76:20 threat114:18 threatened 180:13 three-phase 11:11 three-year44:16 threshold 74:15,17 82:11 86:20 124:6,9 thresholds 74:10 threw164:11 throughout 13:15 thrown 164:10 thumb 29:21 thumbs 215:15 Thursday7:6,11 tier125:3 tiers 124:22 137:7 tightens 131:21 Tim 78:14 120:1 121:5 198:21 timely6:17 83:9 timetable219:8 Timothy2:13 Tim's 117:22 today5:16 27:1,3 30:6 81:10 90:4 95:7 107:18 109:16,20 111:22 132:20 167:6,10 172:15 175:2 187:4 194:16 205:10 212:22 215:13 tolerance 88:15,17 tolerances 86:20 Tom3:5,14 150:22 204:9 tomorrow5:16 16:2,4 91:11,12 107:20 108:5 126:11 145:9 151:14 157:20 208:21 215:8 216:16 217:19 220:1 ton 67:16 tonight146:15 214:3 tons 70:2 tool175:1 178:2,5 to-order127:5 top 71:7,13 73:11 136:18 topic 180:4 topics 20:9 torque 164:6 toss 213:9 tossed 137:4,9 total131:1 totally154:5 185:14 205:5 touch 31:1 touched 176:3 toward 176:13 towards 82:19,20,22 83:1 98:7

Trade 89:13 178:15,16 trained 50:14 51:13 52:12 53:9 113:16 training 37:4,16 38:11 40:19 42:8,18 45:19,21 46:2,9,14 47:6,8 Trane 3:3 51:12,14 52:12,13 53:1 54:1 129:4 155:7 209:9 transcript221:6 transfer63:2 transferring 45:9 transitions 29:14 translate 134:19 Traulsen 2:16 19:18 22:5 27:6 42:21 201:21 treated105:21 trend 154:21 tried 8:18 17:15 165:11 tries 25:22 Tritsis 4:6 25:18 29:22 33:2,4,11,14 34:5,10,17,22 35:3 36:7,13 39:15,18 41:15 42:3 43:10,13,20 44:7 45:5,21 46:4,7 49:22 51:18,21 52:7 54:21 55:19

### Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Committee Meeting 08-26-2013 Page 43

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 56:2,14 57:12,19 58:2,5,7 59:7,14 62:8,17 63:6,22 65:8,15,19 66:12,15,20 67:2,11,17,21 69:21 71:1,10 73:16,20 75:18 76:5,11,19 77:3,8,11,14 78:2,6,11,18,21 79:5,10 80:3,12,14,19 81:4,7,17 82:1,4,8,21 83:8,12,17 84:6,10,17 85:17,19,22 86:3,8,11 87:5,9,13,16,19 88:4,9,12,15,21 89:20 90:1 96:11 112:12 113:7 125:17 trouble 20:7 76:16 177:13 204:3 troubled 103:16 true3:2 66:20,21 125:10 128:22 197:10 213:6 221:6 try125:2 128:2 152:3 180:18 185:1 186:22 203:12 trying 6:13 9:2 13:7 20:22 21:5,6,12 35:20 36:4,6 38:17 39:9 41:1,19,20 42:16 49:20 55:3 66:7 70:10 99:2,5 101:8 104:3,4 106:13 110:17 111:8 112:2,10 113:1 119:18 127:22 132:7 135:16 140:22 155:16,21 158:21 161:3 164:13 165:10 166:9 194:7 tube 61:10 Tuesday 6:11 turn 104:16 112:3 turned 93:18 twist164:10 type 9:17,18 11:7 13:10,11 39:7 57:7,10 61:17 63:11 94:14 97:7 103:11 111:7 139:2,10 146:1,9 152:15 153:22 181:4 193:15 196:10,11 199:20 208:16,17 types 6:8,14 10:2,3 112:9 131:13 152:17 156:16 206:22 typewriting 221:5 typically 101:7 105:3 122:12 U U.S 2:6,7 5:6 119:16 203:10 UL 24:20 32:22 44:5 46:11,13,15 49:2 66:3,4 70:11,14 71:18 91:9 119:19 120:4 180:2 181:8 191:13 212:16 213:3 UL's 191:9 unable 172:8 uncharted 25:22 uncomfortable 210:6 undergone 118:16 undermine 109:11 115:1 undermines 114:21 undermining 109:7 understand 10:22 11:17 20:1 21:6,12 27:12 32:9 35:20 36:5,6,20 39:3 43:12 47:15,20 48:2 49:20 50:14 65:11,21 67:19 87:18 101:18 106:13 112:10 114:3,13 116:20 127:11 131:11,15 147:17 148:6 161:15 163:1,17 168:13 171:16,20 174:7 178:14 181:20 194:8 196:5,8 206:20 understanding 36:8 37:17 44:4,6 49:9 57:5,9,22 62:21 89:5 146:8 151:10 164:8 177:13 202:9 understands 50:14 Underwriters 2:18,22 unfair174:3 UNIDENTIFIED 63:14 72:8,9 73:15 91:2 92:2 139:8 142:10 143:17 144:8,11 212:6 216:12,19 unintended 123:6 unit73:10,11 76:10 105:10,17,18 107:9 156:4,21,22 163:15,16 167:17 United 167:22 201:13 203:1,5 unites 111:6 units 5:18 11:9 60:9 69:10,20 72:3,16 99:11 112:15 113:9 116:4 117:17 128:15 130:15 131:2 140:16 169:10 211:2,4,17 universal 56:10 universally172:13 unknown 22:7 unless 7:4 41:11 61:16 93:3 114:7,8,10 121:13 147:8

### Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Committee Meeting 08-26-2013 Page 44

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 unmuted 158:21 unopened 16:15 unregulated 166:14 unsupervised 32:14 33:1,7 untrained 41:15 upon 28:22 88:20 175:5 upper 82:19 urge 31:12 81:8 useful 122:15 135:21 176:12 usually 6:9 65:11 76:9 utilities 124:1,4,16 125:2 utility80:2 106:22 utilize 176:13 V valid 41:13 126:9 validate 92:19 validated 93:10 validation 92:8,16 93:2 94:16 validations 92:17 validity 90:12 value 39:1 40:6 42:17 45:9 57:3 113:18 114:21 116:13 122:6 148:21 177:11,16 183:8 189:3 203:8,19 value-added 26:11 45:13 values 183:10 185:17 variability 14:22 96:21 133:13 variable 213:13 variables 119:11 variations 132:6 varies 15:4 61:14,15 variety135:19 various 125:14 136:3 208:21 214:9 219:9 vary102:12 vastly29:9 204:2 ventilating 150:20 venture 25:22 veracity177:15 verification 5:10,12,18,22 6:2 13:18 14:18 15:5,17,19 16:19,22 17:1,4,6 18:1 19:2,14 21:17 22:16,21 24:5 27:14 40:6,7 60:15,17 61:2 63:18,20 78:17 80:7 87:22 91:16,22 95:21,22 96:9,10,17,22 97:2,18 98:2,5,13,14 102:4,15,18 103:3,11 104:9 106:7 108:11,12 109:10 110:15 111:12,17 112:22 114:7 115:5,6,11 117:4 118:6,7,16 119:13 120:3,12 124:10 131:8 132:1 134:6 137:11,21 138:7 173:5,6,13,17 175:14,15,16 178:9 180:1 181:1,2,5,6 182:1,7,9,19 183:13,20 184:6 186:2,8,20 192:6,21 193:11 194:2,11,12,19 195:1,11,13 196:16,21 198:18 199:12,14,21 200:8,10 201:5,15 202:7 204:11 206:20 verified 56:22 64:6 103:13 137:11 173:22 174:1,2,10,12 175:20 176:7 177:3 179:5,7,9 182:12 187:3 188:5 196:10,11 199:11,21 verifier110:20 verify22:7 41:4 65:6 105:15 130:15 version 124:17 versus 121:15 134:13 135:6 168:8 176:7 177:12 179:17 189:4 191:17 196:3 206:10 213:14

via 5:13 VICP199:20 209:13 view14:21 16:8 148:14 181:11,12,13 viewed 173:16 182:3 189:12 viewing183:18 views 189:17 violating 192:4 violation 178:15 192:12 visit81:9 visiting 64:21 vocal98:1 voice 96:12 voiced 197:8 volume71:3 101:8 voluntarily 110:1 voluntary17:1,5 20:1 26:17 27:16 40:7 94:18 95:9,14,16 108:8 109:11,20 110:8 176:15 185:10,20 186:1 198:18,20 201:4 volunteered 204:17 vote6:17,18 7:1,3,10 110:16 145:8 151:13 171:13,17 218:2,10,12 VRF113:14

### Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Committee Meeting 08-26-2013 Page 45

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 W wait17:20 32:20 52:9 73:17 77:12 waiting8:10,11 18:18 walk72:20 73:8 walking 72:13,15 Wall211:9 warehouse 71:7 72:13,15,20 73:1,8 warehouses 72:12 warrant15:5 96:22 Washington 1:10 wasn't5:16 20:15 41:4 46:3 84:13 99:15,19 111:8 119:7 172:21 water26:22 58:17 94:22 129:15 139:11,15 140:12 142:9,12 143:6 144:5,9 199:5 watered 194:12 watering 27:3 watts 159:12 ways 53:15 79:13,14 108:21,22 118:3 129:16 187:16 web 124:17 Weber4:13 webinar158:20 website 81:9 89:17 90:7 92:5 103:12 117:21 121:21,22 122:1,20 123:1,2 124:15 126:7 172:16 173:9,16,20 174:3,8,16 175:5,21 178:1 179:6,16 180:3,4,7,10,15, 19,20 182:3,9 186:6 188:3 189:11 190:2 195:12,19,22 196:9,17 197:3,5,10 198:1,3 202:2 websites 189:9 200:3 we'd 18:16 121:4 205:10,21 Wednesday 6:12,20 7:9 9:6 152:1 169:18 170:7 217:20 week6:12 7:14 9:3 152:1 159:3 165:16 171:18 weekend 16:17 weeks 5:4,8 6:6 55:2 138:21 weird 54:7 Welcome5:5 we'll 20:8 31:1,18 91:4 130:8 134:17 145:1 194:5,10 219:16 220:4,6 well-established 184:22 we're 8:21 9:15 12:6,15 13:4 16:1 17:17 18:4,5,13 21:5,6,8,21 22:9,17,19 23:15 26:1,9,21 27:3,8 28:13 31:7 32:10,11,12,14 33:18 35:4 38:22 45:13 49:19 50:20,21 51:2 54:6 56:7,8 67:22 68:5 70:1,15,17 71:15 74:15 75:20 81:10 82:15 95:17 97:16 104:14 110:17 112:1,10 114:15 117:3 129:5 133:14 134:4 135:1,16 138:19 139:2,6 150:8 153:16 156:6,14 160:5 162:9 163:5,15 164:13 165:10,14 166:9 170:17,19 171:21 175:3,6 181:15 183:10,11 184:2,6 189:19 190:4 192:18 193:4,21 195:22 202:7 203:20 206:7 210:10 211:6 217:9 we've 17:11 28:19,22 29:14 33:5 75:6 95:14 97:3 98:19,20 99:10,14 103:16 119:5 122:3 123:8 126:14 131:14 132:5

138:16,20 145:6,11 151:12 168:13 170:14 192:9 193:22 194:4,20,21 202:16 218:16 220:14 whatever8:17 14:1 23:8,9 27:22 52:15 53:6 54:10,17,18 69:3 73:3 82:7 101:13 113:3 119:11 121:13,20 137:13,18 142:20 168:9 174:8,9 178:6 181:8 183:6 199:6,16 201:2 210:9 214:13 220:7 whatsoever 19:14 102:9 wheel 102:11 whereas 51:15 54:8 119:2 Whereupon 91:5 130:5 144:14 220:18 wherever50:9 168:16 whether 6:21 11:21 16:19 23:5 24:3 25:12 32:5 75:10,12 79:3 89:9 91:20 95:21 102:17 103:20 108:18 110:20,22 111:2 118:22 119:18 120:4 121:12

### Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Committee Meeting 08-26-2013 Page 46

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 132:8,10 133:1 151:14,17,19 161:13 174:16 176:6 181:6,7,8 182:11 183:8 188:12 202:8,13 white 177:6 Whitwell 4:7 12:14,22 13:19 14:8,12 35:10,13,15 36:3 61:21 62:3,9,14 63:3 141:5 142:7,14 143:2,22 146:16,18 147:15,18,22 148:5,12,18 149:1,9,13 150:12,16 151:13 152:2,7,22 153:5,9,22 154:3 161:2,5,18,22 162:16 164:1 167:18 168:11,12 205:12 206:1 212:22 215:17 216:15 217:6 219:4,21 whoever 76:13 whole 31:5 37:5 54:16 92:9 93:21 100:6 101:4 153:16 154:16 169:13 192:8,9,18 whom 221:3 who's 143:4,6 167:10 174:15 whose 56:21 64:6 75:21 121:15 166:4,8 167:7 183:2 wide 133:13 135:19 willful99:2 willing 128:2 131:16 196:21 199:2 windings 163:4,8 wish 189:14 witness 18:2 33:20 34:14 35:19 40:10,14 50:7 51:2 54:2,4,14 66:19 70:7 88:2 witnessed 40:12 witnessing 33:15 49:12 wonder14:16 126:11 180:17 wonderful92:12 wondering 61:7 106:5 worded 202:2 wording137:9 wording's 155:6 work6:13 9:10,13 10:2 24:8 40:11 94:2 100:19 130:9 135:5 139:14,21 140:1 142:3 143:21 144:4,15 145:13 146:10 149:17 165:12 168:13 170:14,21 189:19 195:21 196:12 197:12 201:22 203:22

208:20 215:14 worked 31:11 107:6 165:12 193:22 211:9 213:4 working16:20 18:8 20:17 107:14 108:14 125:9,14,18,21 136:1 146:11 165:6 184:20 185:12 192:9 213:9 214:9 works 9:14,22 53:1 64:8 world 204:19 worlds 192:2 worry174:22 205:6 worth 30:12 would-if 101:21 wrap 64:22 146:14 wrapping 65:22 write 55:3,7 194:2 214:6 writings 197:5 written 42:13 55:4 wrong 7:13 16:12 17:3 36:5,17 55:6 85:1 97:2 199:10 204:8 X X-percent131:11 XX166:2,5,10,21 XYZ156:15 Y

Yep 39:17 72:8 Yeses 59:13 218:4 yet5:19 12:2 15:3 44:15 189:13 you'll 145:14 215:10 yours 123:3 174:10 206:7 yourself 102:16 you've 63:18 81:20 105:15 114:4 119:10 164:10 176:3 177:2 193:19 209:6 Yugo 27:11 Yugos 30:4 Z zero 23:9 114:15 196:16 207:16 208:2