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 DEPARTMENT OF ENERGY

 APPLIANCE STANDARDS AND RULEMAKING

 FEDERAL ADVISORY COMMITTEE MEETING

 Department of Energy

 1000 Independence Avenue SW

 Forrestal Building

 Suite 8E-089

 Washington, D.C. 20585

 Monday, August 26, 2013

 10:03 a.m.

Reported by: Christine Allen,

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1 A P P E A R A N C E S

2 FACILITATOR:

3 Neil Eisner

4

5 DOE and ASRAC Representatives:

6 Ashley Armstrong, U.S. Department of Energy

7 Laura Barhydt, U.S. Department of Energy

8

9 INDUSTRY PARTICIPANTS:

10 Karim Amrane, Air-Conditioning, Heating and

11 Refrigeration

12 Institute

13 Timothy Ballo, EarthJustice

14 Jeff Bauman, National Refrigeration & Air-Conditioning

15 David Calabrese, AHRI

16 Mary Dane, Traulsen

17 Paul Doppel, Mitsubishi Electric US, Inc.

18 Brian Ferriol, Underwriters Laboratories, LLC

19 Mark Fly, AAON Heating & Cooling Products

20 Derek Greenauer, Global Government Affairs Management

21 Geoffrey Halley, ABMA

22 Randy Haseman, Underwriters Laboratories, LLC
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1 A P P E A R A N C E S (cont'd)

2 Charles Hon, True Manufacturing

3 Jill Hootman, Trane

4 John Hurst, Hex Technologies, Inc.

5 Tom Johnson, Daikin McQuay

6 Jeff Kleiss, Lochinvar

7 Karen Meyers, Rheem Manufacturing Co.

8 Peter Molvie, Cleaver Brooks

9 Frank Myers, PVI Industries, Inc.

10 Kent Peterson, P2S Engineering, Inc.

11 Harvey Sachs, American Council for an Energy-Efficient

12 Economy

13 John Hurst, Hex Technologies, Inc.

14 Tom Johnson, Daikin McQuay

15 Jeff Kleiss, Lochinvar

16 Karen Meyers, Rheem Manufacturing Co.

17 Peter Molvie, Cleaver Brooks

18 Frank Myers, PVI Industries, Inc.

19 Kent Peterson, P2S Engineering, Inc.

20 Harvey Sachs, American Council for an Energy-Efficient

21 Economy

22 Ronald Shebik, Hussmann Corporation
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1 A P P E A R A N C E S (cont'd)

2 Judd Smith, CSA

3 Louis Starr, NEEA

4 Mike Stem, Intertek

5 Phillip Stephens, HTP

6 Bill Tritsis, AHRI

7 Robert Whitwell, Carrier Corporation

8

9 NAVIGANT:

10 Laura Degitz

11 Aris Maranton

12 Michael Rivest

13 Collin Weber

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22
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1 P R O C E E D I N G S

2 MR. EISNER: Is everybody ready? You want to

3 start off by summing up boilers and motors and status

4 from the last couple weeks?

5 MS. BARHYDT: Hello, everyone. Welcome back.

6 This is Laura Barhydt with the U.S. Department of

7 Energy.

8 Over the last 2 weeks, the boiler

9 manufacturers had a couple of meetings discussing

10 verification testing. There was a request made for AHRI

11 to provide some information about the testing that they

12 have done of boilers through their verification program

13 over the years. And Frank provided some of that via e14 mail, but I think that there were some additional

15 questions that folks were hoping Frank could talk to

16 tomorrow because Frank wasn't going to be here today.

17 My sense was that there was general support

18 for some kind of verification testing of smaller units.

19 And where exactly that breaking point is was yet to be

20 determined. It sounded like it was somewhere between

21 2.5 million and 5 million BTUs; that there was general

22 agreement against any verification testing of larger
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1 boilers, but there was one person, Pete Molvie, was

2 very opposed to any verification testing of boilers at

3 all.

4 In the HVAC area, we met with the motor

5 manufacturers to talk about the basic model motor swap6 out issue and that was two weeks ago. The HVAC

7 manufacturers were going to provide information to the

8 motor manufacturers about the different types of motors

9 that they usually use in real-life scenarios swapping

10 out. And I believe they got that information to NEMA

11 last Tuesday, and NEMA said that they will not be able

12 to get back until Wednesday afternoon this week with

13 the details of what they're trying to work out in terms

14 of determining efficiency across different motor types.

15 That does raise a challenge for us in that we

16 have timing constraints. And we are looking at how to

17 vote out the issue in a timely manner for us to get a

18 proposal to ASRAC for ASRAC to vote on. And by not

19 getting that feedback from the motor manufacturers

20 until late Wednesday, there's been some concern about

21 whether or not there'd be enough time to look at what

22 the motor manufacturers have come up with and to
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1 actually vote on that aspect of it. That is obviously

2 an essential part of the basic model negotiation, and

3 so I don't think we can vote that out for the HVAC

4 unless we have that piece.

5 So Neil has suggested maybe there'd be a

6 possibility of a telecon Thursday morning. I know

7 nobody wanted to be here an extra day, but if there's a

8 possibility to just talk through the issues late

9 Wednesday and then possibly a shorter telecon to talk

10 through any remaining issues and possibly vote that out

11 Thursday morning.

12 The other thought was -- and, Ashley, correct

13 me if I'm wrong -- but ASRAC is not meeting until the

14 second full week of September. And so even though our

15 deadline, maybe we could miss it by a little bit --

16 MS. ARMSTRONG: For what?

17 MS. BARHYDT: -- if we still got the final

18 proposal out to ASRAC in time.

19 MS. ARMSTRONG: For motors?

20 MS. BARHYDT: Yeah.

21 MS. ARMSTRONG: Hi, long time no see. I

22 think for motors to the extent that HVAC manufacturers
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1 want to continue their discussions with the motor

2 manufacturers, I think a lot of that can be done

3 offline and see if there's an official proposal you

4 want to come back with. With what the Department knows,

5 I think we are also going to take our discussions

6 offline and see if there is something we can't pull

7 together for you guys to look at to move this forward.

8 And so that's where we are because we want to move this

9 forward, and it doesn't seem -- I don't know if the

10 motor manufacturers are waiting for more information

11 from you guys, you guys are waiting for information

12 from them. We seem to be getting both? Anyhow, so --

13 MR. AMRANE: No. No, they can get

14 information from us.

15 MS. ARMSTRONG: That's right. I have no idea

16 what's going on, honestly. I've been on maternity

17 leave for a couple days, so whatever is the case. I

18 tried to follow that you -- I'm not so sure that

19 scheduling additional meetings at this point in time

20 will be helpful until you guys have been able to have

21 those discussions. And we're, at the same time, going

22 to come up with what we think is something for you guys
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1 to think about as well.

2 MR. EISNER: What you're trying to come up

3 with, will that be done this week or is that --

4 MS. ARMSTRONG: Yeah.

5 MR. EISNER: So we might be able to talk

6 about that before the end of business on Wednesday?

7 MS. ARMSTRONG: Yeah.

8 MR. EISNER: I also got the impression from

9 the e-mails that the motor manufacturers don't think

10 that the scaling approach is going to work.

11 MS. ARMSTRONG: I actually got the opposite

12 impression.

13 MR. RIVEST: Define "work."

14 MS. ARMSTRONG: It works for a majority of --

15 that's the issue we're going to come deal with, I think

16 the Department's going to take on, is specifying --

17 especially for the cases where a certain type of motor

18 is used in a base model and then a different type of

19 motor is used in the higher static, higher pressure

20 designs. That is the real fundamental issue as I've

21 been able to follow the conversations over e-mail. So

22 I think the scaling works great. If you are able to
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1 have covered motors and you have tables, then the

2 scaling may also work great for other types of motors.

3 The issue is really when you start changing types

4 within a specific base model. And that's an issue the

5 department is going to see if they can come up with a

6 solution for consideration.

7 MR. EISNER: Any questions, comments?

8 MR. SACHS: This is Harvey Sachs, ACEEE.

9 Ashley, it seems to me that there are two separable

10 issues. One of them is the higher capacity motor for

11 higher ESP. And I certainly have felt comfortable with

12 the proposals in that area.

13 The other, and I'm not sure if I'm hearing

14 this correctly or not, is the possibility, particularly

15 in smaller sizes where there are direct drive blowers,

16 of having within the same basic model group both, for

17 example, PSC motor and an ECM motor. Now, is that also

18 under consideration for inclusion in the same basic

19 model group?

20 MS. ARMSTRONG: I don't think there's a

21 solution per se, but that is current practice, as I

22 understand it.
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1 MR. SACHS: This is Harvey again. So both of

2 these changes in motors are on the table now?

3 MS. ARMSTRONG: I don't know what you mean by

4 "changes."

5 MR. RIVEST: Harvey, Mike Rivest. So

6 initially, this conversation was about having a higher

7 horsepower motor of a same type. And in, I guess, a

8 couple meetings back, some of the HVAC manufacturers

9 mentioned that in smaller capacity units where you're

10 straddling, you know, even the definition of "motor"

11 and "small motor," although this is all three-phase,

12 you could have different technologies being used:

13 ECMs, you could have PSCs, you could have air-overs.

14 And currently, I don't know, I think that all three of

15 those could be grouped together or are being grouped

16 together.

17 MR. SACHS: I understand they're being

18 grouped together --

19 MR. RIVEST: For certification purposes.

20 MR. SACHS: -- in industry practices for

21 certification. My question really is whether DOE feels

22 this is a good idea to accept.
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1 MS. ARMSTRONG: I think that's where we are,

2 right? We don't know yet.

3 MR. RIVEST: You don't know?

4 MS. ARMSTRONG: Well, okay, so the answer's

5 probably going to be no, DOE. But I think that's what

6 we're going to talk about. I mean, the idea that you

7 could have an ECM as your base model and that's the one

8 that your ratings are based off and then switch it out

9 to a PSE or an air-over for the higher static designs

10 is a practice that the Department is not comfortable

11 with, so that is something the Department is dealing

12 with.

13 MR. RIVEST: Thank you.

14 MR. WHITWELL: Ashley, Bob Whitwell. I know

15 we're getting into maybe some detail that we want to

16 hold for later, but I think there are some cases where

17 the ECM motor efficiency or let's say a 56 frame

18 induction motor efficiency that's used for a higher

19 static application, may have a higher efficiency than

20 the ECM motor.

21 MS. ARMSTRONG: Right.

22 MR. WHITWELL: And in that case, I think it
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1 should be accepted.

2 MR. RIVEST: No problem.

3 MS. ARMSTRONG: Right. So, I mean, I think

4 that's where we're struggling and it's the details,

5 right? It's how do we articulate the details in a

6 manner that we could put something for you guys to

7 consider, for us to consider that's mutually trying to

8 get to the same goals for both. Because I think we all

9 agree with the general premise, there's no issue when

10 it's the same type. It's with these cross-states. And

11 there's no issue when you have a type of motor in the

12 base that may be an air-over and you switch to

13 something that's like an ECM. It's more of when you

14 have an ECM and you don't maintain either an equal

15 efficiency or the ECM design throughout. It's when you

16 go to something that's a less- efficient, non-base

17 motor and you're asking the Department to exclude those

18 from verification testing. That is the real issue.

19 MR. WHITWELL: Okay, when you refer to air20 over motor, what specifically -- because I think that

21 for most of us on the HVAC side the applications are

22 almost all air-over. There's air over the motors.
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1 MR. RIVEST: Mike Rivest. It's whatever NEMA

2 defines as air-over and, therefore, has no obligation

3 to even rate the motors. That's where the problem

4 comes in because we couldn't even apply a scaling if

5 there's no rating. So air-over, if you mean that as a

6 descriptor, yes, but if you mean it as a product

7 definition per NEMA, then that gets --

8 MR. WHITWELL: Okay. That was my question.

9 So air-over you're considering to be a specific class

10 of motors.

11 MR. RIVEST: Specific, yes.

12 MR. WHITWELL: Okay.

13 MR. EISNER: Anybody else? Any questions on

14 motors? What about on boilers? Everybody agree with

15 Laura's summary?

16 MR. SACHS: This is Harvey. And I wonder if

17 it would be appropriate to ask Cleaver Brooks to give

18 us a short summary of its position on no verification

19 testing.

20 MR. MOLVIE: This is Pete Molvie with Cleaver

21 Brooks. Basically, it's our view that the boilers we

22 manufacture don't have any variability in them after
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1 the design has been set. We fully test them when we

2 develop them. We know what the efficiencies. They're

3 fabricated metal components that I have yet to hear an

4 explanation of what characteristic varies that would

5 warrant ongoing verification testing. That's basically

6 our position in a nutshell.

7 MR. EISNER: Other comments? Any reactions?

8 MR. SACHS: Again, this is Harvey with a

9 question for Peter Molvie. Are you confident in the

10 integrity of your competitors?

11 MR. MOLVIE: I think for the most part the

12 answer to that would be yes. I don't know that anybody

13 could guarantee 100 percent that every player in the

14 marketplace is going to be aboveboard, but I have a

15 hard time accepting the principle that the entire

16 industry's going to be held hostage and incur costs for

17 ongoing verification testing because of one or two bad

18 players. I would like to see some other alternative

19 than ongoing verification testings and the costs that

20 are incurred with that when there's no demonstrated

21 need other than someone being dishonest.

22 MR. AMRANE: This is Karim Amrane with AHRI.
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1 I guess we're going to hear more from Frank when he's

2 here tomorrow, but in our certification program, we do

3 have failures every year, so it happens. So I think

4 he'll give more details tomorrow.

5 MR. HALLEY: Geoff Halley with ABMA. I'll

6 support pretty well what Pete says and also I've been

7 in other manufacturers' facilities and seen nothing

8 that would make me change my point of view from what

9 Pete has said. There are a couple of boiler companies

10 that may be a little bit suspect, but they're not in

11 this marketplace. They're in the industrial

12 marketplace. And, you know, if you're wrong in that

13 marketplace, you just don't sell anything.

14 MR. EISNER: Any other reactions?

15 Okay. Do we have other unopened issues?

16 MS. BARHYDT: So one other issue, I received

17 a couple of e-mails this weekend from commercial

18 refrigeration manufacturers expressing concern as to

19 whether or not verification testing was within the

20 original scope of this working group. I brought a copy

21 of the scope that was approved by ASRAC and the final

22 bullet point on it reads, "Verification, DOE
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1 verification, voluntary industry programs." And so

2 reading between the lines, and you all tell me if I'm

3 wrong, I think the concern is that the way it is framed

4 here it is either verification by DOE or it is a

5 voluntary program as opposed to a mandatory

6 verification.

7 MR. BAUMAN: Jeff Bauman from National

8 Refrigeration. Good morning, Laura.

9 I would say we had some conference call

10 meetings with AHRI, commercial refrigeration

11 manufacturers, and we've already coordinated one with

12 NAFEM, a National Association of Food Equipment

13 Manufacturers. I think the comments, I'm not familiar

14 with the specific e-mails that you received, but I know

15 in both of those meetings where we tried to draw people

16 out to actually start talking at those meetings so

17 we're not all hit with additional comments when the

18 NOPR goes out and people have been sitting either

19 listening or, you know, now's the time to participate,

20 not wait.

21 There were concerns from a number of

22 companies about any additional costs for a manufacturer
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1 for a required verification where they'd have to go out

2 and basically pay a group to do either a witness test

3 or an in-person test. I think the group that has been

4 here, we're kind of, I'll say, I don't want to speak

5 for everybody, but, you know, we're kind of okay and on

6 board with that. And as Harvey said, you know, that

7 may be needed to make sure that the people that may not

8 be aboveboard are -- everybody's working from an equal

9 playing field.

10 Having said that, you know, the requests,

11 I'll say, we got from some of the people on the phones

12 and such were, you know, what's DOE going to say about

13 that. Because my guess is we're going to be -- a number

14 of manufacturers made comment on that loudly, which is

15 their right and everything. And that's why we said

16 we'd also bring it up here so we have a chance, DOE has

17 a chance to respond to that and we can, you know, put

18 those issues out on the table now rather than waiting

19 for later.

20 It's basically that in initial requirements

21 there was nothing about manufacturer burden of costs.

22 And in the initial studies, the impression is when
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1 there was the impact analysis and such an industry that

2 manufacturer having the burden of verification was not

3 part of that study. So those were the concerns that

4 were raised. I looked back myself and I didn't see

5 anything, but I don't know those as well as you folks

6 do.

7 And Mary and Charlie, if you have any other,

8 you know, input on that, obviously, for the feedback

9 that you took.

10 MR. HON: This is Charlie Hon. One

11 consideration is that there are companies who do not

12 presently have NRCanada listings or Energy Star listing

13 products and, as such, they are not at this time doing

14 any verification testing whatsoever. And there's the

15 possibility those of us who had that testing ongoing

16 can merge it into existing testing and thereby defray

17 some of the cost of it.

18 MS. DANE: This is Mary from Traulsen. I

19 think in the letter that I sent you it kind of outlined

20 some of what we have in place already and it's very

21 important to us to make sure that those considerations

22 are included in the negotiations because, as my letter
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1 stated, we understand that Energy Star is voluntary,

2 but that should not exclude client data test programs

3 and that which we have our data supervised by.

4 Our smaller manufacturers, as Charlie said,

5 who don't have the labs are also concerned because to

6 get into a lab right now, they're all booked. And so

7 they would have trouble meeting deadlines, and I'm sure

8 we'll get to that this morning, also. But I think my

9 e-mail covered a number of topics, that being one of

10 them, that we should take into consideration that the

11 industry didn't think that they were talking about a

12 manufacturer- funded program.

13 MS. BARHYDT: Okay. So just to make sure

14 that everybody's on the same page, when you all said

15 previously that you thought that this wasn't what was

16 initially discussed, I thought you all meant within the

17 context of this working group. And it sounds like what

18 you're talking about is the original standard setting

19 rulemaking that did the cost-benefit analysis did not

20 include those costs? What is "initial"? Because you

21 all keep saying this isn't what we initially discussed,

22 and I'm trying to figure out what are we talking about.
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1 MR. BAUMAN: This is Jeff Bauman from

2 National, just real quick. I think one of the things

3 to keep in mind, Laura, is these -- I think most of

4 this discussion didn't come out of the people in this

5 room, I'll say, so we're kind of -- I'm trying to

6 understand that, also. But we're also trying to support

7 our industry and that's a concern from some people in

8 the industry so that we're, you know, properly

9 representing other interests that may not be in this

10 room. Because I think we all have products, as Charlie

11 said, that are Energy Star, NRCan.

12 But trying to understand, going back, like I

13 said, if you look back in some of the -- obviously

14 there are test standards that have already been

15 released. You know, the requirements that are under

16 EPACT and under the other regulations that are already

17 out there, there's not a verification program that's

18 been discussed during those things. And I think

19 they're -- when we talk about the original, basically

20 regulations that are already out there that are not

21 part of this discussion. You know, here we're talking

22 about certification and, you know, parts of that, but,
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1 again, that's what they're referring back to, I think,

2 are the previous or additional regulations that are

3 already out there.

4 MS. BARHYDT: Okay.

5 MS. DANE: This is Mary from Traulsen. And I

6 was going to just say -- and I think because the amount

7 of testing that you want to verify is unknown right

8 now, I think that that's raising a lot of fear, too,

9 because we're talking about an imaginary number that no

10 one can grasp. And if we had that, that might be, you

11 know, something that we could take back, but we don't

12 have that either.

13 MS. BARHYDT: So, basically what you're

14 hearing is that there is a great deal of concern about

15 the added expense because DOE has not historically

16 required participation in a verification program. And

17 admittedly, that is what we're discussing here and it

18 would be a new requirement. There's no question that

19 it is something new and additional that we're talking

20 about. And the primary concern is not necessarily with

21 the concept of there being verification testing. It's

22 a concern about the additional cost that would be
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1 imposed as a result of that kind of a program.

2 MR. BAUMAN: This is Jeff Bauman from

3 National. I'd say, yes, the cost is number one. But

4 I'll say, too, you know, there are people that are

5 questioning about whether there should be any burden on

6 manufacturers. Obviously, manufacturing have been doing

7 their own testing. There's cost there to run the lab

8 or whatever. So I think there's -- it goes down to that

9 basic level of zero option, whatever you want to call

10 it, that people -- again, people that are not

11 necessarily around the table here, but have been

12 raised. And, I mean, I think we think it's fair to

13 discuss that during here, so, you know, DOE has a

14 properly appropriate chance to respond to that as part

15 of this and we're not hit by something later,

16 hopefully.

17 MS. DANE: This is Mary again. And one thing

18 I think might be helpful to take back is that one time

19 you said that DOE envisioned a manufacturer-based

20 program. And as long as that's an option and we keep

21 discussing that, I think that that will be very

22 helpful.
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1 MR. AMRANE: This is Karim Amrane with AHRI.

2 I guess maybe for the sake of everybody else maybe it

3 would be good for DOE to explain, first, whether the

4 DOE -- how do we feel that it has the authority to

5 establish a verification program paid by the

6 participants, of course. So I think it would be

7 important to know, I mean, what are the legal bases for

8 establishing such a program, and then maybe we can work

9 into the details.

10 MS. BARHYDT: Karim, the one day I did not

11 bring my copy of EPCA with me.

12 So generically, yes, we do believe that we

13 have authority to set up this program, and I will bring

14 EPCA with me after the lunch break.

15 MR. SACHS: This is Harvey. And I'm a little

16 bit concerned by premise that there are costs the

17 manufacturer should not have to bear, that there are an

18 awful lot of regulations and call it protection from

19 lawyers that are part of any manufacturing firm, such

20 as UL certification of electrical safety. And the

21 consumer pays for that indirectly through the charges

22 from those test labs for that certification of safety.
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1 It is, in my opinion, similarly a legal obligation for

2 the manufacturer to assure that a product sold in

3 commerce meets the minimum standard, and that's a cost

4 of the product.

5 At the same time -- to be borne by the

6 manufacturer. At the same time, I think there's a

7 public obligation to assure that DOE's program does not

8 go beyond that which is required to assure that

9 products sold in commerce meet the standard. Anything

10 beyond that is differentiated and people can play in

11 those games, Energy Star, for example, if they want to.

12 So the question to me is not whether manufacturers

13 should pay the cost, but how to design programs for

14 product classes that impose the minimum burden to

15 assure that level playing field for all manufacturers

16 and all customers.

17 MR. EISNER: Other comments?

18 MR. TRITSIS: Bill Tritsis, AHRI. Harvey, I

19 guess in your premise what we are arguing here is that

20 the industry already has a program in place where the

21 industry spends over $8 million in doing just what DOE

22 tries to do with its venture into uncharted territory
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1 for DOE. So all we're arguing here is don't destroy

2 what already is in place. Since a great deal of money

3 is already spent, okay, just look and adopt the best

4 principles that the industry has established. Okay?

5 There is plenty of money being spent by the industry

6 right now, just don't destroy it.

7 MR. SACHS: This is Harvey again. I very

8 much appreciate what you're saying, Bill, but I think

9 we're talking about two divergent objectives that I am

10 not asking, nor would I support, DOE's destroying or

11 affecting the value-added programs that AHRI offers its

12 members. I am suggesting that DOE's interest is

13 assuring that everything in commerce meets the minimum

14 standard, and it's not clear to me that there's only

15 one route to assure that. Fair enough?

16 I'm sorry; I haven't been persuaded

17 otherwise. I have enormous regard for voluntary

18 industry programs. ACEEE strongly supports these as an

19 option.

20 MR. AMRANE: This is Karim with AHRI. But at

21 the same time, Harvey, I think for AHRI, we're not

22 going to be accepting something that will water down
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1 what industry has already today. So regardless of how

2 we do it, I think it has to be comparable to what

3 industry is doing today. Otherwise, we're be watering

4 down a program that has been ongoing for many, many

5 years which has proven to be very effective.

6 MS. DANE: This is Mary from Traulsen. I

7 don't want to take anything away from AHRI's program

8 either. I know in the CRE industry we're not big

9 players with AHRI. And I don't believe everybody

10 should be forced by Cadillac if we can only afford a

11 Yugo.

12 Now, having said that, I understand that it

13 should be comparable, but I don't believe 20 percent of

14 verification testing would keep the smaller

15 manufacturers in business very long. We use client

16 data test programs for our voluntary programs. You

17 know, what I meant to say in the letter that I sent you

18 was that that should be considered just as effective as

19 AHRI's program. And I was looking for equal time

20 during the discussion to be able to present my points

21 and how that using those programs, or ETL satellite or

22 whatever, whatever it's called, that there is
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1 impartiality in using those, which was one of the

2 things I keep hearing mentioned is we got to make sure

3 that data is not affected by the manufacturer. And so

4 it's important that, we only have one choice right now,

5 the industry doesn't take part. So we have to have a

6 backup for those that can't afford to belong to AHRI or

7 to use their program.

8 MR. AMRANE: Mary, this is Karim with AHRI.

9 You're mischaracterizing the AHRI program for CRE

10 products. We are not testing 20 percent. In fact,

11 what you have come up with in your document is really

12 taken out of the AHRI program. So, I mean, this is not

13 what we're doing for CRE products, okay? Yes, for the

14 products we do use 20 percent of the basic model

15 groups, but not for CRE products, so don't

16 mischaracterize.

17 MS. DANE: I don't mean to mischaracterize,

18 but I will state that everything that's been presented

19 and brought up on the screen that we've talked about

20 has had the number 20 percent in it, and it hasn't gone

21 down by each group. So until I see a real number that

22 we've agreed upon, I'm sticking with 20 percent as
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1 presented by HVAC and the other groups.

2 MR. HON: This is Charlie Hon. There's also

3 the discussion of a basic model group has to be

4 involved because 20 percent of basic model groups is

5 what is presently in some of the AHRI programs; that

6 under the DOE's definition of a basic model is

7 certainly different than AHRI's, which is more specific

8 and there are more base models under DOE's standards.

9 So, therefore, those numbers would be vastly different,

10 but we really don't have foothold what that is.

11 MS. BARHYDT: So I think at the last meeting

12 we had discussed having AHRI present information about

13 their program. So if everybody's amenable, I suggest

14 we do that now since we've sort of transitions to the

15 AHRI program.

16 MS. DANE: Well, in that will we be able to

17 present ours, have one -- either one of the labs speak

18 up as to theirs, too? And will they be given labs?

19 MS. BARHYDT: Sure.

20 MS. DANE: Okay, thank you.

21 MS. BARHYDT: Got a thumb drive.

22 MR. TRITSIS: All right. I guess the burden
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1 is on me, not Karim. I think many of you are familiar

2 with some of the provisions that we already discussed

3 within this group. But, you know, primarily for Mary's

4 information, and I agree with your opinion about Yugos

5 and Cadillacs, but AHRI has 39 certification programs,

6 many of what we are discussing here today are part of

7 AHRI's certification programs. And I have listed them

8 here on your slide, on this slide right here,

9 commercial ACs and HVs and so on and so forth. So in

10 terms of participants, over 400 participants, many of

11 them international, more than 2,500 tests, over $8

12 million worth of testing.

13 And we talked about accreditations as well.

14 There are differences between the ISO 17065, that

15 certification, but such as AHRI are accredited to and,

16 of course, many of the laboratories, if they are to

17 conduct independent testing. And then ISO 17025 that

18 pertains particularly to laboratory test facilities

19 setups, qualification of technicians, the calibration

20 of equipment, and so on. So what I want to bring up

21 next are the important provisions that every credible

22 certification program has to have in place.
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1 One is independent testing, and we'll touch

2 with each one of them that are presented to you now

3 individually in subsequent slides.

4 Second, it's what we call a "certify all

5 rule," where whole products within the certification

6 program must be certified. That means not all products

7 within the model line are serious. We're talking all

8 products that fall within the scope of that program.

9 The definition of "basic model groups," it's

10 a fundamental definition that groups products in

11 families of products. It's a concept that has worked

12 for a long time. This is what we urge DOE to adopt

13 because it makes sense. It simply makes sense to

14 reduce the number of tests and, at the same time, cover

15 a lot of products into a product family where if one

16 fails, all of the products in that product family get

17 re-rated. All of them.

18 Then the random selection process, we'll talk

19 about it a little bit later.

20 Penalty, penalty provisions, either that is

21 penalty test or monetary penalties.

22 And, of course, revising the rates of
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1 products that have failed testing, challenge testing,

2 the ability of manufacturer to test a competitor's

3 product, either that competitor belongs into the

4 certification program or not. And, of course, a strong

5 qualification process that we know. Whether the

6 participant who is coming into the program has the

7 capability of accurately testing their product. Let's

8 look at independent testing.

9 Well, I think we all understand that, you

10 know, what we're talking about, independent testing, in

11 essence we're talking about testing products

12 continuously at an ISO 17025 laboratory. And we're not

13 talking about testing once every year or supervised

14 testing or unsupervised testing. We're talking about

15 continuous testing year after year after year at the

16 17025 accredited laboratory. It avoids conflict of

17 interest. Conflict of interest in our mind is you're

18 having a different entity reviewing the result and pass

19 or fail of the test report.

20 Brian, you want to wait --

21 MR. FERRIOL: Sorry, Bill, Brian Ferriol with

22 UL. You said "supervised" and then you said
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1 "unsupervised." Do you mean unsupervised?

2 MR. TRITSIS: Well --

3 MR. FERRIOL: Or both?

4 MR. TRITSIS: Well, what we know on some of

5 the satellite programs and that we've heard from many

6 participants around the table is that there is

7 unsupervised testing once the laboratory has reached

8 some sort of a level. This is not what AHRI is doing.

9 In every AHRI program there is supervised testing.

10 MS. ARMSTRONG: But what does that mean?

11 MR. TRITSIS: Supervised testing?

12 MS. ARMSTRONG: Yeah. What kind of

13 supervision does AHRI provide?

14 MR. TRITSIS: We will have our expert being

15 there witnessing the test sample setup and making sure

16 that their instrumentation is calibrated; making sure

17 that the product performs. That's what it is.

18 Now, to do that we're talking about this part

19 of if a manufacturer for some programs, for some

20 commercial products there is what we call witness

21 testing, right, and that's where the supervised testing

22 is taking place. So if, for example, commercial boilers
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1 is one of the programs where our agent is going to that

2 manufacturer's facility, a facility that has been

3 preapproved by AHRI, okay?

4 MS. ARMSTRONG: Right.

5 MR. TRITSIS: A facility that has been

6 preapproved by AHRI, so our agent goes --

7 MS. ARMSTRONG: By your "agent," do you mean

8 someone employed by AHRI or someone employed by the

9 party lab or both?

10 MR. TRITSIS: By the party lab.

11 MS. ARMSTRONG: Okay. And then by supervised

12 -- I mean, obviously I don't think you're supervising

13 either your third-party labs or your manufacturer

14 witness labs that are being used and approved. So how

15 many do you supervise? How many tests do you supervise

16 a year?

17 MR. TRITSIS: For commercial products we test

18 over 500 products. For --

19 MS. ARMSTRONG: No, no, no, not how many you

20 test. How many do you actually supervise the lab at

21 conducting?

22 MR. TRITSIS: Each one of them.
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1 MS. ARMSTRONG: So you have someone from AHRI

2 onsite --

3 MR. TRITSIS: No, no, no -- hold on a second.

4 Not the AHRI. We're talking about our agent. AHRI

5 subcontracts, okay, to the independent laboratories,

6 like the 17025 and so on.

7 MS. ARMSTRONG: Right, so then it's just the

8 third-party running the lab at their facility. There's

9 no supervision of them. Right?

10 MR. WHITWELL: No, actually there are some

11 products that are run in the manufacturer's lab --

12 MS. ARMSTRONG: I get that part.

13 MR. WHITWELL: -- with supervision.

14 MS. ARMSTRONG: So that makes sense to me.

15 MR. WHITWELL: -- with a supervision of the

16 third-party lab.

17 MS. ARMSTRONG: So that makes sense to me. I

18 mean, that's the same thing as like Mary was describing

19 with a manufacturer witness program run by, like, you

20 are all ITS. But I was trying to understand the

21 difference for products that are just run through a

22 third-party lab chain. I mean, there is no additional
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1 supervision. I mean, supervision doesn't come into

2 that.

3 MR. WHITWELL: Well, there are --

4 MS. ARMSTRONG: I'm just trying to

5 understand. I'm not saying right, wrong, or otherwise.

6 I'm just trying to understand --

7 MR. TRITSIS: No, you're correct in your

8 understanding. However, there are differences as to

9 what we provide as AHRI as guidelines to our agent,

10 that is, you know, the third-party laboratory. Okay?

11 MS. ARMSTRONG: Right, right, right. I'm

12 just --

13 MR. TRITSIS: So that's where the difference

14 is.

15 MS. MEYERS: So this is Karen with Rheem.

16 And let me see if I can maybe reword this, and correct

17 me if I'm wrong, Bill, but there is a contract between

18 AHRI and the lab. And the lab has to demonstrate in

19 this contract that they have certain qualifications,

20 that they understand the AHRI operations manual, that

21 their equipment is calibrated. So to be able to run an

22 AHRI test, the lab has to demonstrate certain
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1 capabilities and they also have certain requirements

2 that they have to meet as put forth by AHRI, which is -

3 - I mean, it includes everything from I think the

4 training of the lab personnel and all of this. There's

5 a whole lab certification program that they have to go

6 through.

7 So it's not just contracting to a third-party

8 lab, but it's, you know, it's like the lab has to meet

9 the AHRI specifications if they want to perform the

10 AHRI certification test. So it's a little bit

11 different.

12 MS. ARMSTRONG: So, Karen, that's great,

13 thanks. That was very helpful.

14 One of the things you said, though, was that,

15 you know, what AHRI does is -- it has to do with, like,

16 lab technician training and calibration and

17 understanding the manuals. I mean, how is that

18 essentially different from getting ISO 17025

19 accreditation and different than what, you know, an

20 accreditation body would be doing.

21 MS. MEYERS: So this is Karen with Rheem

22 again. Let me see if I can maybe put it in a different
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1 context.

2 We as a manufacturer would not let just any

3 contractor install our commercial equipment. They

4 would have to be Rheem-trained. So it's kind of the

5 same thing. The lab has to be AHRI-trained, so even

6 though a contractor may have, you know, his licenses,

7 he still may not be authorized to install Rheem

8 equipment.

9 It's kind of the same thing with the lab.

10 You know, the guy may have the same certifications, but

11 if he has not been through the Rheem training program,

12 he's not authorized to install our equipment. So I

13 think it's kind of the same thing with the lab. It

14 still has to be a lab that's been authorized by AHRI to

15 meet certain criteria.

16 MS. ARMSTRONG: Right, and I guess what I'm

17 trying to say is what is that? What does that mean?

18 Because from the Department's perspective -- and, Bill,

19 from what you're explaining to us -- what you guys want

20 us to do is essentially use a program like AHRI's. And

21 I think that the Department is open to that, obviously.

22 That's why we're having these discussions. And we see
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1 the value that they provide, definitely.

2 What we can't do is say you can only use

3 AHRI. So we need to understand what this means. So if

4 a third- party lab wanted to run their own, if a

5 manufacturer wanted to run their own, if another, you

6 know, certification-type organization wanted to run one

7 as well, there would be some type of equivalent

8 requirement.

9 So what I'm trying to ask you is what does

10 that mean? You know, what does it mean to be an AHRI

11 lab? Who goes and does these audits? Is auditing done

12 once a year? How do you get on the list? What do you

13 look for that's above what someone from an

14 accreditation body would look for?

15 MR. TRITSIS: Sure, I think at our last

16 meeting I did send you some samples of it.

17 MS. ARMSTRONG: Yep.

18 MR. TRITSIS: Okay? So, you know, there is -

19 - you know about some of the procedures in those

20 documents that I sent you that describe precisely what

21 the lab should do in order to have accurate testing.

22 And this is information that can come only from the
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1 input of the industry. Okay? That's what you're

2 looking for; this is what we are doing. That's why we

3 see the fundamental difference between a laboratory

4 doing testing, not that we object necessarily on their

5 own, but, you know, what the industry can provide as

6 value added to a verification program that is a

7 voluntary industry verification program.

8 MS. MEYERS: And maybe if I could just say

9 one more thing. This is Karen with Rheem again.

10 AHRI may not witness all the tests, but they

11 supervise the work that the lab does. So sometimes

12 it's more supervised than witnessed, so they are

13 supervising the practices that the lab does to conduct

14 the AHRI test. Sometimes, you know, it's also a witness

15 to --

16 MS. ARMSTRONG: Does that just mean review

17 results?

18 MS. MEYERS: And lab practices and technician

19 training and --

20 MS. ARMSTRONG: I'm not -- I'm going to play

21 devil's advocate for a minute. Don't take the premise

22 that I disagree with anything necessarily that's going
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1 on or the Department does, but I'm just trying to -- so

2 one of the things that -- I'm going to take this back

3 to when we first started discussions over AEDMs and

4 when DOE was going to verify. And it wasn't enough to

5 have someone from DOE on-site at the lab, even though

6 you're running a DOE test procedure in a third-party

7 lab, that's ISO 17025 accredited, you know. You

8 couldn't tell just by those results and that data that

9 you were getting and by limited pictures that the test

10 was conducted correctly; that the setup was done

11 correctly unless the manufacturer is there.

12 Why is that not the case here? Why are you

13 getting valid tests, but we couldn't, with the same

14 thing?

15 MR. TRITSIS: Maybe you used untrained lab

16 technicians that we as AHRI do not qualify.

17 MS. ARMSTRONG: We use the same labs as you.

18 I guess, why are we doing the double -- I mean, I'm not

19 trying to say that there's difference, but what I am

20 trying to say is that, you know, why -- your arguments

21 earlier for why the Department should accept, you know,

22 or have manufacturers on-site or this, that, and the
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1 other. By reviewing the results you just couldn't tell

2 if the test was done properly, so how can you?

3 MR. TRITSIS: Again, I think what you have

4 learned through your few years of testing that we could

5 have told you from the beginning is there is definitely

6 a level of expertise that is required, like Karen is

7 alluding to, that a manufacturer had the industry's

8 training, the personnel, the technicians for a long

9 time before they are capable of doing an accurate test;

10 to, you know, abide with rules and regulations that we

11 have in place. I have a general operations manual in

12 the back that is 50 pages long, okay, that has been

13 written through 50 years of experience, something that,

14 you know, perhaps you need to look into, and some of

15 the other documents that we have.

16 And that's what we are trying to convey to

17 you. There is value into what the industry's providing

18 in training those technicians to perform an accurate

19 test year after year after year. Okay? And who knows

20 how to test and rate the products best?

21 MS. DANE: This is May from Traulsen. I have

22 a question since I'm just learning about the AHRI
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1 program. So you'd have your operator's manual that

2 instructs how to perform the testing to the standards

3 that exist for those products. Is that covered and

4 audited by Guide 65 or is that done outside of the

5 premises? Because ISO Guide 65 and one of the labs

6 will have to help me go through it, but that requires

7 them to perform the testing a certain way. Does it

8 allow for the additional information that's given to

9 them to present these tests?

10 MR. TRITSIS: Mary, yeah, ISO 65 is a quality

11 --

12 MS. DANE: I understand what ISO 65 is.

13 MR. TRITSIS: -- control program. It doesn't

14 -- okay. Yeah, just to let you know that ISO 65

15 doesn't know particularly how -- it doesn't tell you

16 how to test your product.

17 MS. DANE: It doesn't, but it directs you to

18 the standard. And you provide a document that

19 supplements the standard. Is that what you're saying?

20 MR. TRITSIS: Right. Right.

21 MS. DANE: So that would change the scope,

22 would it not? I mean, I'm looking to you all and ETL,
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1 they're sitting in the room. Do you have to get in --

2 or CSA's here, too. I mean, do you have to go back and

3 get that put in your scope?

4 MR. FERRIOL: Well, my understanding, Brian

5 from UL, is that as a test lab we need to be accredited

6 to 17025, not Guide 65. That's my understanding.

7 MR. TRITSIS: But if you are going to be a

8 certification body like you are, for Energy Star, you

9 have to have your 17065 accreditation. Otherwise, you

10 wouldn't be an Energy Star --

11 MR. FERRIOL: I'm not an expert on -- Brian

12 again.

13 MS. DANE: I was going to say actually I

14 spoke to your guy that handles your programs and 17065

15 is not in effect yet. It will be in 2014. There's a

16 three-year implementation period. You're all operating

17 under Guide 65 at this time and that is the one that

18 covers certification bodies. So they are held to an

19 international standard that they're audited by many

20 different organizations all the time, so AHRI is just

21 one of many organizations who oversees AHRI's

22 accreditation process to make sure theirs -- I mean, I
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1 don't mean to pick a fight with AHRI. But I just hear

2 them constantly saying that us using our labs directly

3 is not good enough, but them being the middleman

4 between our labs is A-okay, let's go, so --

5 MR. TRITSIS: Well, I think maybe you're

6 missing a lot of the conversation that is being, you

7 know, discussed right now. And part of it is you as a

8 manufacturer know best how to rate your products, okay?

9 There is value to that in saying -- in transferring

10 this information and know-how to those technicians

11 you're doing pretty much something currently, okay,

12 every time your independent party comes to test your

13 product. This is the value-added that we're talking

14 about. This is something that we say to you that

15 exists in our documents. Okay? I'm not necessarily

16 they exist in some, you know of the other facilities

17 doing independent testing.

18 MR. STEPHENS: Phillip Stephens, HTP. Bill,

19 does AHRI currently offer training in these product

20 categories to conduct the performance test?

21 MR. TRITSIS: Training to the technicians?

22 Absolutely we do.
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1 MR. STEPHENS: No, do you currently offer

2 training to manufacturers? Because I've requested it

3 and I was told it wasn't available.

4 MR. TRITSIS: You as a manufacturer should

5 know how to test your product.

6 MR. STEPHENS: Thank you. Thank you.

7 MR. TRITSIS: So we go based on that premise.

8 MR. STEPHENS: So do the other test labs

9 offer training for technicians conducting the test

10 standards?

11 MR. FERRIOL: This is Brian with UL.

12 Absolutely from a safety standpoint and from an energy

13 efficiency standpoint UL has for years offered advisory

14 services or training for engineers as far as knowledge

15 on UL standards, even technicians on how to conduct

16 tests. We actually, as previously mentioned, have a

17 data acceptance program that originated in the safety

18 arena, but it continues in the area of energy

19 efficiency where we audit manufacturers' labs. So in

20 order to do that we feel it's prudent to not just

21 audit, but if somebody needs help getting to the point

22 of being ready for an audit, that we will provide
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1 services to get them ready.

2 MR. STEPHENS: Thank you. My point was that

3 when I arrived at HTP, I approached AHRI to sharpen the

4 saw, to make sure I knew the employees had the skill

5 sets that I wanted them to have. AHRI specifically

6 didn't offer the training. We did have to go to one of

7 the certification bodies to do that. I fully support

8 AHRI offering that training and I asked them to several

9 times.

10 MS. BARHYDT: So, Bill, I'm a lawyer and I

11 decide to open up an HVAC manufacturing facility and I

12 go hire a lot of really knowledgeable engineers who

13 actually know how to build an air-conditioner because I

14 don't have a clue. And these are really good

15 engineers, they really understand how to build a good

16 air-conditioner, and they build some really good air17 conditioners. How do they know how to test? I mean,

18 there is a test procedure and a method, but that is not

19 necessarily the same thing as knowing how to build one.

20 They're different things. And so I don't understand

21 your reaction was you're the manufacturer, you should

22 know how to test it. Well, they're in a test lab. I
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1 would hope they know how to test it.

2 Honestly, I don't understand why it is just

3 inherent and you are a manufacturer, therefore, you

4 know how to test.

5 MR. HURST: I wouldn't say it's inherent, but

6 we do have test facilities and people that are

7 professionals. It's just like saying you're an HVAC

8 manufacturer, how could you have people that know

9 finance? I mean, we have financial people, we have

10 accountants, we have attorneys, we have professional

11 test people as well.

12 So I don't know if it's inherent, Laura, but

13 I can speak on behalf of my company, we have a

14 professional organization that knows how to test our

15 equipment.

16 MS. MEYERS: And we also have to certify

17 those products. So to certify those products you have

18 to know how to test them. So we have to -- so I think

19 that's a little bit different. It's like, you know,

20 you're an attorney for DOE. Does that mean you're

21 equally proficient in divorce law? You know, just

22 because you are -- you know, you still have to have
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1 specific skill sets. If you can test refrigerators at

2 UL, it may not mean that that technician is equally

3 adept at testing HVAC products. It's a skill set and

4 that's what AHRI does, is they make -- they supervise

5 the lab to ensure that they are running the test

6 correctly. They're complicated.

7 MS. BARHYDT: Okay, so that last statement

8 you said AHRI supervises the lab to make sure they test

9 correctly, but my understanding previously was that

10 AHRI was not supervising the labs, they were

11 supervising when testing was done at manufacturer labs.

12 MS. MEYERS: Supervising and witnessing are

13 different.

14 MS. BARHYDT: Okay. Help me out here.

15 MS. ARMSTRONG: Yeah, can somebody just

16 explain when is AHRI there? What qualifications does

17 that person or people have that supervise a test? What

18 test do they supervise: third-party labs or

19 manufacturer labs or -- I mean, that's what we're

20 trying to understand. How many of those tests -- what

21 is it that you do that those adjectives describe?

22 MR. TRITSIS: I'll start. Okay, first of
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1 all, as you can imagine, with 38, running 38 or 39

2 programs, there are engineers that we have in place

3 qualified to assess laboratories, okay, and supervise

4 the contracts that we have with the independent

5 laboratories. There is some testing that is done in6 house at the independent laboratory and some testing

7 that is done, what we call witness testing, at the

8 manufacturer's facility. Okay?

9 Wherever this testing is done, if it is in10 house testing, what takes place before any technician

11 starts doing the testing on a product of a manufacturer

12 that participates in our program, we make sure that

13 this is a knowledgeable technician that has been

14 trained, that understands the standard, that understand

15 AHRI certification program, that has experience to test

16 the manufacturer's product. Okay?

17 They have to follow rules, guidelines, and

18 expertise that is conveyed to them during the years of

19 testing from the manufacturer to -- and that's what we

20 assess and we supervise. And that's what we're --

21 that's when we're saying we have testing done in an

22 independent laboratory through, you know, qualified
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1 technicians. Okay? So that's in-house testing.

2 We're talking about them next witness testing

3 at a manufacturer's facility that has been preapproved

4 by AHRI. That means the independent laboratory that we

5 have hired has sent a qualified technician to make sure

6 that that facility can indeed test the product

7 accurately.

8 MR. STARR: This is Louis Starr. I have a

9 question for you.

10 So by "qualified technician," if you're

11 testing a specific piece of manufacture, like equipment

12 from Trane, does that mean that that technician has

13 been trained on the procedures that are specific to

14 Trane equipment? Is that what you mean by

15 qualifications whereas the ISO 16025 wouldn't

16 necessarily encompass that? Is that what you're

17 referring to?

18 MR. TRITSIS: Well, yeah, 17065, as we said,

19 is a quality --

20 MR. STARR: Sorry, 17025.

21 MR. TRITSIS: Right, 17025. 17025, again, is

22 a quality system the laboratories are required to have
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1 in place. That does not convey knowledge of any,

2 participating manufacture's product. And that

3 knowledge is conveyed from the manufacturer through

4 AHRI to that technician.

5 MR. STARR: So the answer's yes; is that

6 right?

7 MR. TRITSIS: Yes.

8 MR. MYERS: This is Frank Myers, PVI.

9 MS. HOOTMAN: It's not -- wait a minute.

10 MR. STARR: That's what I --

11 MS. HOOTMAN: No, the technician is not

12 specifically trained on Trane or --

13 MR. STARR: Well, not specifically Trane, but

14 --

15 MS. HOOTMAN: -- on Carrier or whatever.

16 MR. STARR: It's familiar with the product,

17 though, right? I other words --

18 MS. HOOTMAN: Yes, familiar with --

19 MR. STARR: -- he's got --

20 MS. HOOTMAN: It's familiar with the

21 certification program and the test standard.

22 MR. STARR: Okay. But not particular -- like
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1 I know Trane equipment works differently.

2 MS. HOOTMAN: Now, over time, I'm going to

3 say that they're kind of experienced technicians and

4 they've been there a while, so over time they've seen a

5 lot of our stuff or they're seen a lot of Carrier's or

6 whatever, so they start to gain that.

7 MR. STARR: Right.

8 MS. HOOTMAN: But it's more that they're

9 trained in the standard --

10 MR. STARR: Okay.

11 MS. HOOTMAN: -- in the test standard, and

12 how the certification program needs to run, so there's

13 not only the general OM, but each certification program

14 has an OM.

15 MR. STARR: But in some ways, wouldn't you

16 feel more comfortable with AHRI because the experience

17 that they bring? I mean, there is a lot of different

18 in --

19 MS. HOOTMAN: No question the experience is

20 there. No question the experience is there because

21 they're -- yeah. Those technicians are experienced.

22 MR. STARR: Also, isn't there -- a
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1 difference, too, is that Trane could be there to

2 witness the test?

3 MS. HOOTMAN: We can be there 100 percent to

4 witness. We have that choice.

5 MR. STARR: So in other words, if there are

6 problems they can be providing input, like, hey, we're

7 getting some weird numbers here, what may be going on.

8 Whereas if you just have nobody --

9 MS. HOOTMAN: Or you didn't install that

10 correctly or whatever. Yeah, we can --

11 MR. STARR: So there's a level of supervision

12 that's not normally there.

13 MS. HOOTMAN: Right. We don't actually

14 physically see the test, we witness the setup.

15 MR. STARR: Okay.

16 MS. HOOTMAN: So we can see the whole setup

17 you didn't -- you know, you didn't put the whatever on

18 correctly or whatever. So we can see all the setup, we

19 can see the instrumentation and all that kind of stuff,

20 but we don't physically see the test.

21 MR. TRITSIS: There is a set of guidelines

22 that --
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1 MR. STARR: So this is kind of like the test

2 procedures set up that we were talking about many weeks

3 ago except that actually instead of trying to write out

4 through a written communication, you can actually be

5 there with your eyes and see it, which is probably a

6 better -- in other words, if the test setup is wrong,

7 you can write up a test that describes how to set that

8 setup, but it's never going to be as good as actually

9 being there at the factory seeing it.

10 MS. HOOTMAN: That's right.

11 MR. STARR: So that's probably why the

12 manufacturers are very comfortable with AHRI's setup

13 because it allows a higher involvement that's not

14 allowed necessarily at 17025 is what I'm thinking the

15 difference is.

16 MR. MYERS: This is Frank Myers with PVI

17 Industries. Bill, I get the sense you have not

18 completed your presentation.

19 MR. TRITSIS: Right.

20 MR. MYERS: And perhaps some of these

21 questions would be answered by the conclusion of your

22 presentation, so I think it would be good to have you
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1 go on through that. Thank you.

2 MR. TRITSIS: Thank you, Frank. Laura. All

3 right, the next provision, we talked about before, is

4 the certifying all products or the performance of all

5 products in the scope of the certification program.

6 This is what we call the Certify All Rule. Again,

7 we're not talking about all products in the model line

8 or series. We're talking about all products within the

9 scope of a certification program. Definitely that

10 avoids market confusion and it is a universal rule for

11 all AHRI certification programs.

12 MR. STEPHENS: Phillip Stephens, HTP. Could

13 you expound on that?

14 MR. TRITSIS: Which part eliminates market

15 confusion? I'll give you an example. If you, if a

16 manufacturer, any participating in the program has some

17 product certified and some others within the scope of

18 the program not certified, then, you know, what you

19 often see is confusion in the literature of how the

20 certification mark is presented; B, you could be

21 supplying for a job a certified product whose

22 performance has been independently verified and, at the
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1 same time, supplying a lower bid for a product that you

2 know performs better -- less; less not better -- that

3 is not certified. So that's where we see the value of

4 that rule.

5 MS. BARHYDT: So my understanding is that

6 where you say "scope of a program," you are not

7 referring to all products of the same type. You are

8 referring to only the scope of the program. Because my

9 understanding is that AHRI's program does not cover all

10 of the regulated products within a DOE product type.

11 Is that correct?

12 MR. TRITSIS: For some, yes.

13 MS. BARHYDT: And I don't know how you would

14 have heard of this, but are you aware of any confusion

15 resulting from I am a participant in the AHRI boiler

16 program and they believe that boilers of all sizes are

17 covered by that program when really the program only

18 goes up to a certain size. Does that make sense?

19 MR. TRITSIS: Well, the program scope could

20 go, yes, could have limits, but --

21 MS. BARHYDT: But it doesn't. My

22 understanding is the current AHRI program doesn't go
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1 above a certain size.

2 MR. TRITSIS: Right.

3 MS. BARHYDT: And presumably, there are

4 manufacturers who go beyond that size.

5 MR. TRITSIS: Yeah.

6 MS. BARHYDT: So --

7 MR. TRITSIS: So that is not so-called --

8 it's not certified equipment if it is above that what

9 is in the scope of the AHRI certification program. So

10 those manufacturers who have distinct models that are

11 above the scope, okay, that's outside of the scope of

12 certified product. But, you know, you cannot have a

13 product that spans -- or there are some provisions that

14 describe what happens if a product goes beyond the

15 certified scope.

16 MS. HOOTMAN: So I'll give you an example:

17 water source heat pumps. Water source heat

18 pumps, the certification for AHRI is much more broader

19 than what is covered by the regs. And so, yeah,

20 there's occasionally -- you know, there are people that

21 come in and have questions about, you know, why doesn't

22 this fall under this regulation or something like that?
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1 It's just pretty much an easy question to, you know,

2 answer. But, yeah, there is that dissimilarity. And

3 so, you know, we have to say it's an AHRI

4 certification, but it's not necessarily covered by --

5 MS. BARHYDT: DOE regs.

6 MS. HOOTMAN: Yeah, DOE regulations.

7 MR. TRITSIS: All right. Here is what we

8 hope is some information on why we think the basic

9 model group is concept that DOE would find acceptable.

10 Again, it is grouping products in that same product

11 family. And I believe you have seen our definitions,

12 right?

13 (Yeses.)

14 MR. TRITSIS: Okay. So, you know, how

15 products are grouped were any one of these

16 characteristics that I'm showing on this slide. So,

17 you know, they can be grouped either based on capacity,

18 airflow, components, two or three of these descriptors

19 together as well for some products. But the

20 fundamental point here is that grouping the products

21 into basic model groups allows for a reduced number of

22 tests, making the program affordable. Okay?
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1 In Mary's case for commercial refrigerators,

2 for example, there are six product families. With a 20

3 percent basic model group selection criteria, assuming

4 she has products in each one of these six product

5 categories, she will be doing two tests, which we

6 think, you know, it is affordable.

7 The caveat, again, manufacturers decide how

8 to group their products into the basic model groups.

9 But there are some programs that have, like the units

10 that are large, for example, that have specific

11 descriptors of how to group products in the same

12 product family, such as compressor, such as airflow,

13 and capacity. So that's why we think this concept

14 makes sense. That's why we think it makes a

15 verification program affordable to manufacturers.

16 Now, at the same time, if a product that is

17 selected for a verification testing within that basic

18 model group fails testing, all of the products within

19 that basic model group, that product family gets re20 rated. Okay? That's why we think that this is a

21 concept that has lasted through time. It has made

22 programs strong and has allowed the programs to be
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1 affordable to those participating in it.

2 And, of course, for verification testing what

3 we currently do is 20 to 30 percent of the basic model

4 groups on an annual basis. Again and again, annual.

5 MR. HALLEY: Geoff Halley with ABM. I'm

6 looking at that basic model group definition and I'm

7 wondering how it would fit into the sort of product

8 lines of the manufacturers that we represent.

9 Certainly let's take an example. A boiler manufacturer

10 may have a line of fire tube boilers that goes from 100

11 horsepower to 1,000 horsepower. If you want to convert

12 it to input, say around 4 million BTUs to 40 million

13 BTUs. They've got similar performance characteristics

14 in many cases. Obviously the capacity varies all over

15 the place. The nominal airflow varies all over the

16 place unless you're talking about an airflow per

17 capacity type thing. And the components are obviously

18 somewhat similar, they've got similar functions, but

19 they're going to get bigger as the boilers get bigger.

20 How do you handle a thing like that?

21 MR. WHITWELL: This is Bob Whitwell from

22 Carrier. I think what Bill's put here are some
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1 examples of some parameters --

2 MR. HALLEY: Right.

3 MR. WHITWELL: -- that might be part of a

4 basic model group definition and not necessarily meant

5 to say that these are what would define a basic model

6 group. So for your products, for example, it could be

7 something different, right?

8 MR. TRITSIS: Right.

9 MR. WHITWELL: It could be what would make

10 sense for your product.

11 MR. HALLEY: Yeah, looking at that it looks

12 as though every model would have a different basic

13 model.

14 MR. WHITWELL: Yeah, so those are probably

15 not the right ones for your product.

16 MR. HALLEY: It's not a good -- right.

17 MR. TRITSIS: Right, that's definitely not

18 for the boilers. This is an example, okay, of

19 characteristics that could be used to group products.

20 MR. SACHS: This is Harvey and I just want to

21 see if I'm completely understanding what Bob has said.

22 And that would seem to me that for these large boilers
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1 the basic model group might be everything with the same

2 ratio of heat transfer area to BTU capacity.

3 MR. WHITWELL: It could be. It could be. I

4 mean, I'm not familiar with those products, but that

5 could be the right --

6 MR. TRITSIS: Or model line. The model line.

7 MS. BARHYDT: So I have the -- I actually

8 have the definition that Karim sent out previously. It

9 says, "Each participant's listing shall be grouped by a

10 basic model group. A basic model group is a regular

11 range of sizes of a similar type, design, and

12 construction, and having a common designation as

13 catalogued."

14 UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: (Off microphone.)

15 MS. BARHYDT: Commercial boilers.

16 MR. STEPHENS: Phillip Stephens, HTP. One

17 more question on the minimum percent testing for

18 verification. As you've already mentioned that AHRI is

19 a Cadillac program. If the Department of Energy

20 accepts 20 percent verification do you see AHRI going

21 up to 30 to 40 percent of basic models?

22 MR. TRITSIS: I didn't say that it was a
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1 Cadillac program. Mary said that.

2 It's a program that is affordable. That's

3 why you participate. That makes you advertise that

4 your product indeed meets your ratings rather than, you

5 know, some of your competitors that are outside of the

6 program, whose product is not verified. So, that's,

7 you know, speculatory at this point. You know, we have

8 something in place that we find it works right now.

9 The random selection process. For some

10 products, you know, we do ask for a three sample

11 minimum where we ask these three samples to be

12 presented so we can select a product for testing. We

13 can select, of course, from a distributor. It can be a

14 product built to order. And for those that are shipped

15 to the independent laboratory we ship it for testing

16 for others that are testing at the manufacturer's

17 facility. We, again, ask for the product to be

18 available for testing at the manufacturer's facility.

19 The products that are shipped to the

20 independent laboratory for testing, we have special

21 selectors that are visiting the manufacturer's facility

22 and they choose from the three sample minimum and wrap
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1 it and secure it and make sure that the product is

2 secured and then shipped -- before it is shipped to the

3 independent laboratory. Of course, when it's shipped

4 to the independent laboratory, it is checked to make

5 sure that the product that AHRI selected is the product

6 that we want to verify.

7 MS. BARHYDT: Bill, who are your selectors?

8 MR. TRITSIS: The selectors are a network

9 that the independent laboratory has in place that we

10 know and have basically a certain assurance that they

11 are people that, A, understand the product and usually

12 they're ex- HVAC contractors.

13 MS. BARHYDT: So are they employees of the

14 labs?

15 MR. TRITSIS: I think -- well, they are

16 employees. Some of them might be under contractual

17 obligation.

18 MS. BARHYDT: Contracts.

19 MR. TRITSIS: But, again, what matters is

20 their knowledge of the product and what to do once they

21 go there. Basically they have to understand the rules

22 of the program, wrapping it and securing it, and how to
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1 select.

2 MR. FERRIOL: Laura? Sorry, Bill. This is

3 Brian with UL. At UL, they are full-time employees of

4 UL, yes.

5 MS. BARHYDT: Okay. And then, from a three

6 sample minimum, when the selector goes -- I guess I'm

7 trying to figure out the relationship between the

8 three- sample minimum and the selector. If they're

9 less than three samples, then you choose a different

10 model within the same basic model group? Or what

11 happens if there's not three samples?

12 MR. TRITSIS: There have to be three samples

13 if they're --

14 MS. BARHYDT: So then they just make more.

15 MR. TRITSIS: Right, there has to be three

16 samples --

17 MS. BARHYDT: Jill's shaking her head no.

18 MS. HOOTMAN: No, there are times when you

19 can witness the components being put in.

20 MR. TRITSIS: Well, that's true. That's

21 true. But that's under construction.

22 MS. HOOTMAN: Right. So that's not a three
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1 sample.

2 MR. TRITSIS: But under the instruction of

3 AHRI. Okay? When we said the selector, you know, we

4 tell them what to do. But if we are to select a

5 natural package product, then three samples have to be

6 available. Okay?

7 MR. SACHS: Bill, this is Harvey. And

8 echoing in my cavities in my brain are Frank's many

9 comments about being a build-to-order manufacturer. So

10 he's not going to have three boxes sitting there.

11 MR. TRITSIS: No, no, no, no. For big, for

12 some of these big commercial products, obviously you

13 cannot have, you know, three humungous boilers just

14 sitting there.

15 MR. SACHS: And I would imagine the same for

16 60- ton RTUs.

17 MR. TRITSIS: Right, right.

18 MR. SACHS: So can you just digress for a

19 second to help me understand what the protocol is for

20 these situations.

21 MR. TRITSIS: Well, when you're talking about

22 some commercial products, we're talking about some of
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1 them are stock items, you know, you want to use a

2 packaged air-conditioner, okay, that, you know, at the

3 lower level 135,000 BTUs or less than that and less.

4 Okay. Some of these products, you know, are available

5 and stocked. And these are the ones we're talking that

6 three samples have to be available. Some others,

7 again, it's not possible or cost-effective to have

8 three samples.

9 MR. SACHS: So I'm just asking what the

10 procedure is for manufacturers of build-to-order or

11 manufacturers, say, of mixed groupings, but include at

12 the large end some stuff that's essentially built to

13 order rather than stocked. How does AHRI select the

14 samples for that? That's my question.

15 MR. MOLVIE: This is Pete Molvie with Cleaver

16 Brooks. And this really gets to the problem that our

17 company is in. We do participate in AHRI, but to a

18 very small extent. I would say that less than 5

19 percent of our products are even able to be tested to

20 that standard, so there's a huge part of our product

21 that we simply can't -- the standards that AHRI tests

22 to aren't applicable to our products even if we wanted
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1 to test them. So there has to be another mechanism for

2 boiler manufacturers like us to be able to meet

3 whatever requirements we decide to set up. AHRI's not

4 going to cut the mustard for us.

5 MR. AMRANE: But, Pete, you're talking about

6 test procedures currently with AHRI. You're talking

7 about a test procedure here, right, that does not apply

8 to your product, right? You're talking about test

9 procedures or you're talking about the process by we

10 select units.

11 MR. MOLVIE: I'm talking about the -- well,

12 really both, but the test procedure itself, the BTS

13 2000, it's not applicable to our products. And the

14 size range goes way too big for anything that can be

15 covered by existing laboratories.

16 MR. AMRANE: I think the test procedure is a

17 different issue and that's a DOE issue and DOE has to

18 address it. But the size issue, I think, I don't know,

19 maybe you need to, Bill, to talk a little bit about how

20 we select units or large units.

21 MR. TRITSIS: Sure. We ask for the

22 production schedule, okay, for the -- the
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1 manufacturer's production schedule. Don't forget we're

2 testing chillers up to, you know, 4,000 tons, okay, so

3 we ask for the production schedule, and from there we

4 see what is being built. And when that product is

5 built, we schedule the testing for large products.

6 MS. HOOTMAN: You schedule somebody to come

7 witness it being built? So selection of the components

8 as it goes in that it's independent.

9 MR. SACHS: Thank you, Bill. That's exactly

10 what I was trying to learn.

11 MR. FERRIOL: Laura, Brian with UL. I just

12 wanted to comment on a question you had earlier about

13 if a selector went there were not three samples

14 available, what would happen? The way UL handles it,

15 and I think others similarly, is we're in contact with

16 the manufacturer to make sure before we send someone

17 that they do have samples available. So we're not

18 going out there to select if they don't have the three

19 samples already.

20 MS. ARMSTRONG: So they know in advance?

21 MS. BARHYDT: So when does the manufacturer

22 know which models were selected?
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1 MR. TRITSIS: Thirty days in advance.

2 MS. BARHYDT: Okay, and let's say this is

3 something they make a higher volume and they have 150

4 of them. Does the selector pick from the 150 or does

5 the manufacturer get some out because it's going to be

6 a royal pain a forklift to get all these things off of

7 the top shelf of the warehouse? Does the manufacturer

8 pre- select a smaller group that then is selected from?

9 What is the selector choosing from?

10 MR. TRITSIS: If the product is stocked and

11 available, the selector is choosing three products that

12 are just over there sitting on the shelf. Now, if it's

13 at the top of the shelf, at the bottom of the shelf,

14 you know, does it really make any difference? You

15 know, we're talking about a product, you know, that is

16 sitting there on the shelf tested again and again and

17 again, year after year.

18 MR. FERRIOL: Laura, Brian from UL. Again,

19 from my experience I think it depends. It depends on -

20 - let me just say it depends. The rule says minimum of

21 three. In some cases, the selector might want the

22 manufacturer to take them where the big stockpile is,
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1 and be onerous about saying, you know, give me that one

2 that's on the bottom and you got to take an hour to

3 move a bunch of units around to get it. I think that's

4 up to the discretion of the selector.

5 MS. BARHYDT: Okay.

6 MR. THARP: This is Rusty. Can you hear me

7 okay?

8 UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: Yep.

9 UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: Yeah.

10 MR. THARP: And to further comment to what

11 Brian said, it does depend on the manufacturer. Some

12 manufacturers have extremely large warehouses and

13 walking around the warehouse, having the selector take

14 his time and the manufacture of employees taking their

15 time to spend the entire day walking around a warehouse

16 selecting units is very burdensome. So with the 30-day

17 notice, some manufacturers may choose to just put a

18 minimum of three in one area and that way the selector

19 and the employee can stay in that one area and not have

20 to walk around the entire warehouse.

21 What's common in my experience is they'll

22 just bring a sack, so if there's a -- and even if it's
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1 normally stacked six tall, the warehouse will just grab

2 the entire stack and bring it to an area. If it's

3 stacked four tall, they'll bring, you know, whatever

4 stack has at least three minimum and bring that to the

5 area and that's what the -- at least some manufacturers

6 do it that way. Other manufacturers, depending on the

7 size of the routes and what they want to do, they'll

8 just have them walk around the warehouse.

9 And I've seen it where it goes -- where some

10 inspectors want the bottom unit. Some of them just are

11 nice and say just give me the top unit.

12 End of rant.

13 MR. EISNER: This a good time for a 10-minute

14 break?

15 UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: No.

16 MR. TRITSIS: I only have a couple more

17 slides if you want to wait.

18 MR. EISNER: Oh, okay, I thought you were

19 done.

20 MR. TRITSIS: The next thing is, of course,

21 when there are test failures, there have to be

22 consequences, and that's what is described quite
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1 clearly in the operations manuals that I'm sure you

2 have seen.

3 The choice here is to de-rate the product,

4 obsolete the produce. And, of course, you know, all

5 the products in the basic model group and these are the

6 consequences of a test failure. Of course, there is an

7 option to test a second sample.

8 And if any given participant has found

9 himself to be in multiple test failures, and that's

10 what monitor and their provisions to and thresholds

11 where, you know, they get into what we call "probation

12 modes," "penalty mode," double selection. So there are

13 consequences as a result of failure rates, of high

14 failure rates. And, you know, high failure rates, what

15 is the threshold that we're talking about? There's a

16 table, there's a chart in the operations manual that we

17 have online. And 10 percent is the threshold that we

18 are using for some sort of action.

19 And that action, you know, includes penalty

20 tests, like double the number of annual tests, and

21 monetary penalties as well. And some other options, of

22 course, include the removal of the basic model group
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1 from the director. And these are some of the penalty

2 provisions that we currently have, that we, you know,

3 we feel is a strong deterrent for anyone to present

4 inaccurate ratings.

5 The next provision is the challenge test. I

6 think we've talked about it within this group. That

7 allows any participant in the program to challenge the

8 ratings of someone else within the program or outside

9 of the program. And, of course, here, too, AHRI makes

10 the decision based on test reports, whether, you know,

11 the challenge can proceed or not. So in terms of

12 payments I think, you know, depending on whether the

13 product passes or fails, is the responsibility of the

14 challenger or the challengee.

15 MR. EISNER: What percentage of your

16 manufacturers get into the penalty mode? And is it

17 public information they get into the penalty mode?

18 MR. TRITSIS: Yes, it is public information.

19 If you're following the directory, there is a listing

20 of those who have not necessarily -- we're not listing

21 them as penalty mode by whose products have been de22 rated. So then you can see if you go to the directory
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1 products that have been de-rated as part of our annual

2 testing.

3 MR. EISNER: But you see enough listed there,

4 you know they're in the penalty mode.

5 MR. TRITSIS: That would be a reasonable

6 assumption.

7 MR. EISNER: Do you get more challenges to

8 those who fall into the penalty mode? When other

9 manufacturers see that do they usually ask for more

10 challenges of that particular unit?

11 MR. TRITSIS: Well, at that point, you know,

12 there are stringent enough provisions within the

13 program, you know, where whoever has multiple D rates

14 or it being in penalty mode, monetary penalties, double

15 the number of tests, you know, they're already in

16 trouble.

17 MR. EISNER: What's the size of the monetary

18 penalty?

19 MR. TRITSIS: Well, you know, it could be in

20 the tens of thousands to, you know, some cases, it

21 could be 100,000.

22 MR. EISNER: Does the 100,000 depend on your
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1 having multiple penalties or is there some serious --

2 they missed the mark by so much that you --

3 MR. TRITSIS: Yeah, it's based on the

4 multiple de-rate failures.

5 MS. BARHYDT: Bill, do you have a second

6 slide on challenge tests or just the one slide on

7 challenge tests?

8 MR. TRITSIS: I think that's -- oh, here it

9 is.

10 MS. BARHYDT: Okay.

11 MR. TRITSIS: How did you know?

12 MS. BARHYDT: I was going to wait to ask a

13 question if there was more coming.

14 MR. TRITSIS: I should have forwarded the

15 slides to you anyway. But, yes, I mean, this, again,

16 describes who pays and how challenge tests are being

17 assessed where we authorize basically the laboratory

18 the reasonable grounds to doubt the ratings based on

19 the test reports that we have seen, you know. To have

20 the test move forward the laboratory goes and gets the

21 product for the test.

22 MR. EISNER: What percentage of the challenge
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1 test does the challenger have to pay?

2 MR. TRITSIS: The challenger pays if the

3 product passes.

4 MR. EISNER: And I'm asking what percentage -

5 -

6 MR. TRITSIS: They're paying everything.

7 They're paying --

8 MR. EISNER: No, but in what percentage of

9 the challenges has it passed as opposed to fail?

10 MR.

11 TRITSIS: I'll give you what I have in mind.

12 Last year I think half of them passed, half of them

13 failed.

14 MR. BALLO: This is Tim with EarthJustice.

15 Is it fair to say that failure rates are higher for

16 products that are tested under the challenge testing

17 than under the normal verification testing procedure?

18 MR. TRITSIS: I'm sorry, say that again.

19 MR. BALLO: Are products more likely to fail

20 in a challenge test than in a --

21 MR. TRITSIS: Oh, yes. Yes, yes, yes.

22 MS. BARHYDT: So just going back and slide,
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1 if I'm reading this right, the challenger has to get a

2 model, test it, send you the results before you decide

3 whether or not to go forward with the challenge testing

4 under AHRI's process.

5 MR. TRITSIS: Right, there has to be some

6 sort of a reason here.

7 MS. ARMSTRONG: Well, how does that happen

8 for built-to-order products?

9 MS. HOOTMAN: Expensive.

10 MR. TRITSIS: Yeah.

11 MS. ARMSTRONG: I mean, if Carrier asked you

12 for a product are you going to give it to them?

13 MS. HOOTMAN: They have ways and we have

14 ways.

15 MR. STEPHENS: Phillip Stephens.

16 MR. HUNT: Hello. This is Marshall Hunt.

17 MR. EISNER: Go ahead, Marshall.

18 MR. HUNT: Marshall Hunt, PG&E. Can you hear

19 me?

20 MR. EISNER: Yes, go ahead.

21 MR. HUNT: It says on the first bullet that

22 the participant can challenge ratings. I'm assuming
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1 you're saying a participant in the AHRI program. Can a

2 utility challenge the ratings, such as my own?

3 MR. TRITSIS: If you have some test reports

4 or something that you would like us to consider, AHRI

5 can challenge products of participants. So if you want

6 to submit, you know, a test report, you know, we can

7 select it as part of the annual verification test. If

8 you -- so basically there is a process for you if you

9 want to send us something.

10 MR. HUNT: So we would go directly to

11 AHRI's program manager of the section --

12 MR. TRITSIS: Right.

13 MR. HUNT: -- and present our case to them.

14 MR. TRITSIS: Right, if you have a test

15 report, absolutely, you should do that.

16 MR. HUNT: And if we disagreed with the

17 conclusions made by AHRI is there any way else to push

18 the case forward?

19 MR. TRITSIS: There's an appeal process that,

20 again, is in our operations manual that is online and

21 describes what you can do. But, you know, are you

22 talking -- do you have a specific example or --
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1 MR. HUNT: No, we do not. I just want to

2 make sure that this is open to the public at some level

3 because we are --

4 MR. TRITSIS: Yeah, I'm glad you brought it

5 up.

6 MR. HUNT: -- spending millions on products.

7 MR. TRITSIS: You know, we make it a point to

8 have all of our documents online and I would urge you

9 to just go visit the AHRI website so you will see all

10 those bullet points and discussions we're having today

11 and how we run the programs. They're all there in

12 documents that are publicly available.

13 MS. ARMSTRONG: Can I ask a question if he's

14 done? Do the challenge tests, are they part of the

15 percentage of basic model group minimums that have to

16 be met a year.

17 MR. TRITSIS: No, separate, completely

18 separate tests.

19 MS. ARMSTRONG: And so, even if that 20

20 percent has been met for the year and you've received

21 three challenge tests for a given manufacturer. They

22 are done no matter what --
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1 MR. TRITSIS: Absolutely.

2 MS. ARMSTRONG: -- assuming you find the

3 information credible.

4 MR. TRITSIS: Absolutely.

5 MS. ARMSTRONG: And that would be handled the

6 same if it was a third-party or the Department were to

7 ask you or whatever?

8 MR. TRITSIS: Absolutely. AHRI staff have

9 the ability to conduct what we call discretionary tests

10 that, you know, again, are over are above the 20 or 30

11 percent threshold for any reason.

12 MR. HUNT: And remember on the challenge test

13 basically the loser pays, correct?

14 MR. AMRANE: (Off microphone.)

15 MS. ARMSTRONG: We're negotiating here,

16 Karim.

17 MR. STEPHENS: Phillip Stephens, HTP. Bill,

18 is there a breakdown between the performance level

19 where you see more challenges? Is it towards the upper

20 end or towards the lower end of the efficiencies?

21 MR. TRITSIS: For some of the recent cases

22 that we had, they're towards the lower end of the
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1 efficiencies, towards the minimum standards. In a few

2 cases we have reported, of course, to the Department.

3 MS. BARHYDT: Sorry what was the last thing?

4 I looked at my BlackBerry. I apologize.

5 MS. ARMSTRONG: If it's below standards, they

6 report them to the Department.

7 MS. BARHYDT: Lately?

8 MR. TRITSIS: Within the next few months.

9 MS. ARMSTRONG: Timely?

10 MS. BARHYDT: Within the next few months, is

11 that what you just said?

12 MR. TRITSIS: No, when we report it to you.

13 I don't know if you recall there was a series of tests

14 that were conducted and we sent you the result, I sent

15 you the results.

16 MS. BARHYDT: For one product?

17 MR. TRITSIS: Yes, and we showed you some

18 other products that really we couldn't get a hold of.

19 MS. BARHYDT: Okay.

20 MS. ARMSTRONG: And what was the time between

21 the determination was made and when we were given

22 notice?
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1 MS. BARHYDT: It was relatively --

2 MS. ARMSTRONG: Yeah, I'm only just asking.

3 MS. BARHYDT: Three months.

4 MS. ARMSTRONG: Three months? Okay.

5 MR. BARHYDT: Four months.

6 MR. TRITSIS: Three or four months ago, that

7 one I sent you, yeah.

8 MS. BARHYDT: No, this is about 3 or 4 months

9 after the test was completed.

10 MR. TRITSIS: Oh, yeah, yeah. Well, the

11 first test. The second immediately after we had, you

12 know, the conclusive evidence, you know, I think it

13 wasn't much time that I sent it to you.

14 MS. BARHYDT: Maybe it took a while for you

15 to get the results from the lab because based on the

16 date of the test it had been several months.

17 MR. TRITSIS: Could be.

18 MR. CALABRESE: This is Dave Calabrese. If I

19 could just add to that. I mean, there is a due process

20 that those that are being challenged get. So as Bill

21 has said, there is the first and the second test. They

22 can come back and say after the first challenge test,
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1 well, you did this wrong, you did that wrong. We then

2 do another test. So once we have a definitive answer,

3 and I'm involved in that process, you immediately get

4 it. But it's after they, the challengee, has been given

5 their rights under our procedures. After that's been

6 exhausted, then we immediately provide it to you. So

7 if it's 3 months, it was because we were going through

8 the process. So there's no delay when we have

9 definitive word and they have exhausted their rights

10 under the procedure, you have it.

11 AHRI

12 MS. BARHYDT: And that's for the challenge

13 testing?

14 MR. CALABRESE: Right.

15 MS. BARHYDT: Okay. How many challenge tests

16 have you had?

17 MR. TRITSIS: Last year?

18 MS. BARHYDT: Mm-hmm.

19 MR. TRITSIS: Well, let me think. Within the

20 last six, seven months we had I believe three or four.

21 MS. BARHYDT: And 50 percent have failed?

22 MR. TRITSIS: I think so.
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1 MR. AMRANE: Karim with AHRI. But not all of

2 them failed below the federal minimum.

3 MR. TRITSIS: Below the federal minimum,

4 sorry.

5 MR. AMRANE: So you have to be careful on

6 that.

7 MS. BARHYDT: Okay.

8 MR. TRITSIS: Like, you know, everything that

9 fails below federal minimum, it is sent to you, right?

10 MS. BARHYDT: At some point, yes.

11 MR. TRITSIS: Again, in due process.

12 And finally, the last slide is the

13 qualification process where we have basically to get

14 assured that the participant who enters the program

15 knows how to test the product and provide accurate

16 performance ratings. And that's the gist of it and

17 there are multiple stringency levels depending on the

18 program. Some of them test each and every model that

19 comes into the program. Some others, you know, have

20 higher threshold criteria in terms of tolerances and so

21 on. All qualification tests must pass basically before

22 any participant can actually enter the program.
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1 MS. BARHYDT: So a couple of questions. One

2 of the things I think you just said was that some of

3 the programs required them to test every model? Is

4 that --

5 MR. TRITSIS: That are introduced, yeah,

6 right.

7 MS. BARHYDT: Every model or every basic

8 model or every basic model group?

9 MR. TRITSIS: A product of the basic model

10 group.

11 MS. BARHYDT: Okay, so that's the much, much

12 smaller number than every model.

13 MR. TRITSIS: Well, yes, but if you think

14 about it, you know, if that fails --

15 MS. BARHYDT: I'm not criticizing.

16 MR. TRITSIS: Yeah, right.

17 MS. BARHYDT: I'm just making sure I

18 understand the level of testing required.

19 MR. TRITSIS: Correct.

20 MS. BARHYDT: And then for the qualification

21 tests, now, are these subject to the same sort of

22 requirements that you have for your verification tests
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1 or these are -- they can just be testing done by the

2 manufacturer in their own lab, no witness, no ISO, no

3 oversight?

4 MR. TRITSIS: No, testing has to be done --

5 if they qualify to enter the program, testing has to be

6 done by a supervised -- AHRI supervised agent.

7 MS. BARHYDT: Okay, so that qualification

8 testing is all --

9 MR. TRITSIS: Is all that's part like the

10 same -- right.

11 MS. BARHYDT: The higher level of --

12 MR. TRITSIS: Just stringent requirements,

13 more stringent requirements.

14 MS. BARHYDT: Okay.

15 MR. TRITSIS: It could be tolerance. There's

16 a program that has 2 percent rather than 5 percent

17 tolerance for pass/failure.

18 MS. BARHYDT: Okay.

19 MR. STEPHENS: I believe it really depends

20 upon which program.

21 MR. TRITSIS: Right, right.

22 MS. BARHYDT: Do other people have questions?
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1 MR. SACHS: This is Harvey. And Bill and

2 Karim have brought up an important point about

3 notifying DOE if anything fails the federal minimum

4 standard. And my question is one of my lack of

5 understanding. What responsibility does DOE have for

6 the integrity of performance certifications above the

7 federal minimum? In other words, as an example, if a

8 residential air- conditioner meets SEER 13 does DOE or

9 FTC or neither or both have concerns about whether

10 something that's advertised as SEER 16 actually meets

11 16?

12 MS. BARHYDT: For consumer products that's

13 the Federal Trade Commission. Under EPCA for

14 commercial products, DOE has that authority.

15 MR. SACHS: Thank you. That's very helpful.

16 MR. EISNER: But they don't send it to you.

17 Can DOE look at your website and see that there was a

18 failure that met their standard, but didn't meet the

19 advertised standard?

20 MR. TRITSIS: Yes, there is.

21 MS. BARHYDT: We can see where the re-rates

22 are.
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1 MR. TRITSIS: Yeah, they can see the re2 rates.

3 MR. AMRANE: This is Karim with AHRI. With

4 respect to the discussion we are having here today, are

5 we talking just about the federal minimum standards of

6 education or are we talking about anything that

7 manufacturers will put on the DOE website?

8 MS. BARHYDT: So, I think DOE's primary

9 concern is obviously with the minimum standards, but as

10 we discussed with AEDMs, to the extent that a

11 manufacturer is using an AEDM we have a great deal of

12 concern about the validity of the ratings from an AEDM

13 in particular because those impact the minimum

14 standards as well as all of the ratings across the

15 board.

16 MR. EISNER: Any other questions for Bill?

17 All right. Thank you, Bill.

18 MS. BARHYDT: Ready for the 10-minute break

19 now?

20 MR. EISNER: Do we want break for lunch now

21 or do we have a long afternoon or do you want to go on

22 for another hour and a half or an hour before you go to
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1 lunch? Nobody cares?

2 UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: (Off microphone.)

3 MR. EISNER: Okay. Hearing no objections,

4 we'll take 10 minutes now.

5 (Whereupon, there was a brief recess.)

6 MR. EISNER: Let's get started again. Would

7 anybody from the laboratories like to make any

8 presentations or have a discussion about what they do?

9 MR. FERRIOL: This is Brian with UL. I don't

10 have anything at this point in time, but we may have

11 something tomorrow. Could I reserve the right to bring

12 something tomorrow, perhaps?

13 MR. EISNER: Sure. Anybody else?

14 (No response.)

15 MR. EISNER: All right. Do we want to go

16 back to verification testing?

17 MS. BARHYDT: So given some of the concerns

18 that have been raised by the commercial refrigeration

19 folks, certainly Pete has expressed the concern. Let's

20 just take a step backwards and talk about whether or

21 not there is actual agreement that we should have DOE

22 required verification. Obviously the DOE is supportive
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1 of the idea, but where is everyone else?

2 UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: I don't know.

3 MR. MYERS: This is Frank Myers with PVI. I

4 think if there's going to be public listing on the DOE

5 website of all of this information that's being

6 requested, I don't think there is a question that

7 that's a requirement.

8 I think there ought to be some validation. I

9 certainly don't agree that whole -- everyone in that

10 program needs to reach the same level of stringency

11 that the AHRI program does. I think the AHRI program

12 is a wonderful program and I would characterize it as a

13 Cadillac. There are other paths that you could go down

14 to get what I would think would be a reasonable level

15 of certainty that the numbers that are in the public

16 listing by DOE have some validation and maintain some

17 validations.

18 It could be anywhere form Pete Molvie's idea

19 that you validate it when you get your design certified

20 and for certain class of equipment, perhaps that

21 adequate. And then you maintain, you know, you

22 maintain that as long as you maintain the safety
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1 certification that was done along with the efficiency

2 validation that controls the design, and you don't have

3 to test unless there is a design change that had to go

4 back through that process.

5 I'm not saying that I agree with that. I'm

6 saying it could range from that stepping up a notch.

7 It could be what California Energy Commission does.

8 They have a program where they have several paths to

9 get into it, but they allow the manufacturer to conduct

10 their testing if you validated your capability to them.

11 An officer of the company or someone authorized by the

12 company to take responsibility signs a pledge that

13 you're going to keep it right. And then, they do

14 annual -- they have a budget, not a huge budget, but

15 they have a budget where they go out and collect

16 equipment and conduct tests.

17 And I know with a former company, we had a

18 product that was found to be not compliant. It turned

19 out that they were correct. Fortunately we hadn't sold

20 very many of them. We discontinued that product and

21 designed a whole new -- we were buying it from a third22 party. And we thought it was fine, but it was not and
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1 we replaced it. So the system, at least to that

2 degree, I can testify it does work to get bad product

3 out of the marketplace.

4 Stepping up another notch, you can do what

5 the Gas Appliance Manufacturers Association did prior

6 to their merger with AHRI, which had many of the

7 attributes that were described by AHRI, but not all.

8 All the way up to what I'm characterizing the Cadillac

9 program with AHRI. And perhaps, it's not the same for

10 all products. Perhaps it's not the same for build-to11 order or engineered-to-order, which would take care of

12 Pete and a number of other people that have concerns

13 about it. Maybe it's different by size. Maybe it's

14 different by product type. But my personal belief is

15 that there should be some form, as I've described in

16 that range of options, of validation.

17 MR. AMRANE: Karim Amrane, AHRI. I think

18 AHRI, which of course supports -- you know, a voluntary

19 program, and again, I mean, I don't think AHRI is

20 certainly pushing for the AHRI program to be the

21 program but we would like to have something close to

22 it. We don't want a DOE program that will water down
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1 what industry has been doing for more than 50 years.

2 And again, we have been referring to this

3 Cadillac program. This Cadillac program was set up by

4 the manufacturers. It was not random -- it was the

5 manufacturers themselves developing the rules and that

6 was done with 50 years of experience. We are here

7 today because of that experience. So -- and it's

8 coming from the manufacturers.

9 So, for us, we would support a voluntary

10 program, a DOE program, as long as it is not too far

11 from what currently exists and has been in existence

12 for more than 50 years.

13 MS. BARHYDT: So Karim, just to clarify

14 because you said voluntary several times and what we've

15 been talking about is a mandatory program. So, I know

16 your program is voluntary, but I just want to make sure

17 terminology-wise we're all on the same page.

18 MR. AMRANE: We are on the same page.

19 MS. BARHYDT: Okay.

20 MR. EISNER: Well, keeping this focused

21 initially on whether verification testing is needed,

22 what does your data show about verification testing?
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1 In other words, what number of pieces of

2 equipment are failing despite having gone through the

3 earlier processes?

4 MR. AMRANE: Well, I don't have those

5 statistics. This is Karim with AHRI. But maybe Bill

6 can, you know, Neil is asking, you know, what's the

7 percentage of failures we have overall every year. I

8 think we have -- I don't know. I mean --

9 MR. EISNER: Failures in verification --

10 MR. AMRANE: In verification testing.

11 MR. TRITSIS: Sorry I thought I had a loud

12 enough voice.

13 Overall I think it's two percent of the 2,500

14 products that we test.

15 MR. MOLVIE: This is Pete Molvie with Cleaver

16 Brooks. I think more important than the quantity of

17 failures in verification testing, it's what kind of

18 failures are occurring and in what kind of products?

19 I still go back to the fact that the products

20 we make are manufactured with precision, there's no

21 variability that effects the efficiency that would

22 warrant ongoing verification testing.
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1 MR. SACHS: This is Harvey. And Laura, I

2 could be wrong, but this question of verification

3 testing might be better approached as we've done some

4 of the other issues by looking at it by product class

5 by product class. I'm not convinced that the same show

6 fits all the feet in the room.

7 MS. BARHYDT: Product class or product type?

8 Or both?

9 MR. SACHS: Yes.

10 MS. BARHYDT: Okay.

11 MR. SACHS: I obviously meant at the highest

12 level that we start with something like CRE. Certainly

13 when we get to boilers, there are going to be

14 differences by capacity. But thinking about it in

15 terms of the needs of each segment of the general

16 industry that we're considering here.

17 MR. SHEBIK: Ron Shebik with Hussmann.

18 Laura, your question was is verification testing

19 necessary.

20 So, again, I'm just going to speak on behalf

21 of what we know from the CRE group, the members that we

22 spoke to. There's going to be several. More than two
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1 or three that are going to be very vocal that a

2 verification program was never part of the game. When

3 DOE originally approached manufacturers and discussed

4 this, the idea and the cost of the burden -- the burden

5 of cost of a verification program was never out there.

6 And, many of the smaller manufacturers feel that this

7 is actually geared more towards the larger

8 manufacturers who can absorb this cost, where the

9 smaller manufacturer is going to have to -- it could be

10 a struggle for them.

11 I guess the question I have though, and

12 again, I'm going to make the assumption that you see no

13 verification as an extreme. What do you plan to gain

14 from verification that you wouldn't get from challenge

15 testing from manufacturers? From competitors?

16 Wouldn't you find most of the problems through

17 competitors challenging?

18 MS. BARHYDT: Not necessarily. So, to give

19 you some examples -- we've obviously been testing on

20 the residential side longer than we've been testing on

21 the commercial side, so I have several years more data

22 on that. There are manufacturers who I think thought
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1 their products were compliant. I don't think there was

2 anything willful that they were intentionally trying to

3 skirt the regulations. And I don't think any of their

4 competitors really thought that they were out there

5 trying to make non-compliant products either. I don't

6 think there would have necessarily been challenge tests

7 conducted raised from one competitor against another

8 competitor. "You know, I think they're making this

9 non- compliant model."

10 But the reality is when we've randomly picked

11 units and tested them, products failed. Issues can

12 arise over time in the manufacturing process, there can

13 be shift in the manufacturing process over time. There

14 can be -- one thing we've seen is component suppliers

15 swap something out and it wasn't -- the design of the

16 supplied component changed even though they didn't

17 change the model number and the manufacturer had no

18 idea, but the end result was that the final product

19 wasn't performing the way the manufacturer had

20 originally designed it. And I don't think there's any

21 way to catch that kind of thing relying solely on

22 challenge testing.
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1 MR. HALLEY: This is Geoff Halley with ABMA.

2 I've listened to all of this this morning and it seems

3 to me that AHRI have done a pretty good job in

4 directing the smaller segment of the boiler

5 marketplace, and probably it was only course of action

6 from the DOE. But there's a whole different set of

7 rules really that apply to the boilers that I

8 represent. And I think it's really got to be handled

9 by a different way of doing things on the part of DOE

10 and this manufacturing segment.

11 I've never heard of a challenge in our

12 segment of the industry. Nobody's ever challenged the

13 efficiency to my knowledge. Nobody has purchased a

14 product from somebody else, built by a competitive

15 manufacturer and tested it in their labs to my

16 knowledge.

17 So it doesn't exist in our segment of the

18 marketplace. And, you know, they've never had a

19 problem. They've tended to work from -- as Frank

20 pointed out, the California Energy Commission. A lot of

21 them are familiar with that already and to my knowledge

22 it's not been a problem with the manufacturers. They
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1 go along with it.

2 So, I would like to see something different

3 for our segment of the marketplace in terms of how this

4 whole thing is handled.

5 MR. HURST: This is John Hurst with Lennox.

6 I'm assuming, but I don't know this Bill, but I would

7 imagine that challenge testing would come typically in

8 high volume products where you're not trying to do a

9 one-off gotcha. At least on the residential side. I

10 don't know if that's' correct.

11 The other challenge testing would probably

12 come around some sort of market claim. We have the

13 highest efficiency whatever. But for the stuff in14 between, I don't know how much challenge testing you

15 would get. What I did hear though, was there would be

16 an opportunity for the DOE to submit a challenge based

17 on some rational thought process.

18 I'd like to understand where you guys are in

19 terms of that meets your needs, doesn't meet your needs

20 concerning the comments we have before the break.

21 MS. BARHYDT: So DOE would-if we had concerns

22 about a product, DOE would just test it ourselves.
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1 MR. MOLVIE: This is Pete Molvie with Cleaver

2 Brooks. Relative to challenge testing, I would support

3 100 percent challenge testing as opposed to ongoing

4 verification testing when the costs for that testing,

5 if you pass is a burden for someone else.

6 When we develop our products, we know with

7 certainty what the efficiency is and we publish the

8 efficiency with money back guarantees and we have no

9 doubt whatsoever that we meet the efficiencies that we

10 put into our sales documents. So, challenge away, but

11 I just don't see an ongoing cost to reinvent the wheel

12 on a product that doesn't vary.

13 MR. STEPHENS: Phillip Stephens, HTP. Would

14 it be within the Department's purview to require a

15 mandatory verification if a manufacturer were to fail a

16 challenge test or one of your random audits yourself?

17 MS. BARHYDT: So you're asking whether we

18 could not institute verification across the board, but

19 only in cases where somebody failed a test. Okay, so

20 under that scenario, Manufacturer X is plugging along,

21 making lots of products or making just a few products

22 and nobody happens to challenge test them and they keep
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1 on making their products and making their products and

2 nobody challenges them. At what point are they then

3 ever even at risk of being subjected to verification

4 testing?

5 MR. STEPHENS: They're at risk every day from

6 their competition, from Earth Justice, from ACEEE for

7 their customers for not providing the benefits that

8 they're claiming they do.

9 MS. MEYERS: Perhaps an idea to consider --

10 this is Karen with Rheem, is that if you don't

11 participate in some type of verification testing then

12 you don't go on the DOE website, because those are

13 federally covered products that have not been verified.

14 MR. SACHS: Karen, this Harvey. I find that

15 attractive for production products. For stuff that's

16 not one-offs. I'm still troubled by the regime we've

17 imposed for engineered or on-off products and I still

18 think that we can solve that one fairly quickly if we

19 focused on it for a few minutes and then moved --

20 whether that's CRE or large boilers, and then moved

21 onto the -- what I would call the mass production

22 products.
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1 MS. BARHYDT: Do you have something to

2 propose?

3 MR. SACHS: I'm trying to prose the path and

4 I'm trying to listen for suggestions and we have

5 Cleaver Brooks at one extreme saying that for their

6 engineered products, which are invariant, which is

7 amazing, but I assume on a one-sided basis they don't

8 flunk and which are sold to very discriminating

9 customers. They're making the case that verification

10 is simply nothing but a burden. And Geoff next to me

11 is saying, "Gee, maybe it's something we ought to do

12 for stuff that's produced in slightly larger numbers,"

13 say 2.5 million BTU boilers but nor for stuff bigger.

14 And I think we're going to be deciding how to slice the

15 pie and it's going to have some arbitrariness and it

16 may turn out and need a revision in four or five years.

17 But it seems to me that disposing of the

18 areas that are causing us the most heartburn, but might

19 have the simplest solutions would be a path.

20 MR. HON: This is Charlie Hon. Just to ask

21 the question. These large boilers, they are always

22 commissioned aren't they?
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1 MR. HALLEY: They are commissioned, yes.

2 MR. HON: By regulatory body, right?

3 MR. HALLEY: Well they are -- typically a

4 startup technician will do it on behalf of the company.

5 MR. HON: Are there also regulatory bodies

6 that govern the installation of these products?

7 MR. HALLEY: Well, yeah, there's the National

8 Board of Boiler Inspectors who have got a code, yes.

9 MR. HON: So we have regulatory people

10 involved in commissioning. Would they see if the unit

11 did not meet the efficiency proposed?

12 MR. HALLEY: Yeah, I was going to sort of

13 follow you. But to my way of thinking, if you get a

14 challenge, it's going to be from a customer. Not from

15 anybody else. And if you've got to sort of verify that

16 challenge or check it out if you like, then probably

17 the only way to do it is to do that unit, that

18 customer's unit and if you're going to do it properly

19 you're going to have to clean the system before you --

20 because you don't know how long the thing's been in

21 existence and how it's been treated. So it's going to

22 have to be cleaned before you start. And you know, I
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1 would suspect that in all cases that with the

2 manufacturers that we represent, you would find that it

3 complies with the criteria.

4 MR. STARR: This is Louis Starr with NEEA.

5 One thing I'm wondering about, it sounds like the

6 testing of the boilers -- it seems, obviously air

7 conditioning manufacturers are paying for verification

8 and there are certain costs associated with that. It

9 sounds like with the boilers, there's more of a burden

10 associated with testing than per se any of the other

11 manufacturers of equipment or it hasn't been done

12 before, therefore we don't want to do it.

13 I'm trying to understand what -- is it really

14 the cost of the testing or is it more the principle?

15 MR. EISNER: There's a question about the

16 need for the testing also. Isn't there? That's what I

17 thought I've been hearing.

18 MR. STARR: Well, you know, one thing.

19 They've provided an example where, you know, the

20 customer's interested in a certain efficiency of the

21 boiler. A lot of times you will get an incentive from

22 a utility company. So the customer doesn't necessarily
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1 -- isn't interested in the efficiency, they're

2 interested in the rebate. And so, there's actually

3 some other people in that picture that would not

4 necessarily, you know, would be concerned about the

5 efficiency as well.

6 MR. HALLEY: When I worked for a

7 manufacturer, I remember one instance where somebody

8 was claiming that we did not meet the efficiency level.

9 The unit was in a building in Cincinnati, Ohio and we

10 were requested to test in the summer. Now a heating

11 boiler -- it is very hard to get a sufficient load on a

12 heating boiler in Cincinnati in the summer. And we did

13 eventually manage to test it in situ, in the summer, in

14 Cincinnati by working through the night and we met the

15 efficiency standards we claimed.

16 MR. AMRANE: This is Karim Amrane with AHRI.

17 We do have a program for boilers, so it's being done

18 today. Maybe not for the large boilers, that Pete is

19 talking about, but there is a program and as I said,

20 tomorrow when Frank is going to be here maybe he will

21 give us more information about the failure rates. But

22 we do, but we do encounter failure rates every year.
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1 MR. STARR: Are they similar to other

2 equipment?

3 MR. AMRANE: It might be similar or it might

4 be lower, I don't know. Frank will probably give us

5 more data on it tomorrow.

6 MR. EISNER: Any other comments? Thoughts?

7 I'm hearing a lot of ideas about how it could be

8 handled. You could give incentives for voluntary

9 programs, putting information online. You could have

10 severe penalties if your product is ever tested and it

11 doesn't pass a verification test, including being

12 subject to a larger amount of verification testing and

13 you might be under a rule that applied to everybody.

14 These are working in different directions.

15 They're providing incentives to join a program or

16 they're providing incentives to make sure your product

17 does meet the standards, because if you flunk a test

18 that DOE preforms in one way or another, whether it's

19 pursuant to a challenge or using your own money, there

20 could be some severe penalties. All of these have

21 their pros and their cons. There are ways you could

22 mesh them together in different ways. You could put
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1 them all into one program essentially.

2 MR. STARR: This is Louis Starr with NEEA.

3 Another thought, I mean, if AHRI has a

4 testing program, you know, maybe the break point could

5 be where they don't have a testing program or something

6 along those lines and then you would have the benefit

7 that you wouldn't necessarily be undermining an

8 existing testing procedure.

9 MR. EISNER: How do you think the DOE rule --

10 setting a mandatory level of verification testing would

11 undermine what is a voluntary program right now?

12 MR. STARR: Well, actually, maybe Karim can

13 answer that.

14 MR. AMRANE: I think the danger here is that

15 DOE would come up with a program that will have much

16 less stringent requirements that what AHRI has today.

17 And all of a sudden now, on the market you will have a

18 program by DOE, a federal government-run program that

19 will have basically much less requirements of what the

20 voluntary program that we have today currently has.

21 And so, what will be the level playing field

22 here?
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1 MR. EISNER: Right now people are voluntarily

2 paying you --

3 MR. AMRANE: Absolutely

4 MR. EISNER: -- and it's not required at

5 all. You're fearful that if DOE had a lower standard,

6 they would drop out of your program?

7 MR. AMRANE: That could be. That would not

8 be fair to those who are already doing that voluntary

9 program.

10 MS. ARMSTRONG: So, I think the Department's

11 perspective on this is, you know, Bill -- and we thank

12 Bill for giving the presentation, but that's the reason

13 for the question. The devil's in the details here.

14 And yes, we can require that, you know, the Department

15 wants to come up with -- to the extent a verification

16 program comes out with a consensus vote here.

17 What we're trying to do is -- at some level

18 the requirements of the detailed requirements for those

19 should be equitable. Anyone who wants to enter the

20 market as a verifier, whether it be a manufacturer --

21 the Department's perspective I don't know that we care

22 at this point, whether it be a manufacturer, whether it
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1 be a third-party lab that wants to run their own, or

2 whether it be, you know, an entity like an industry3 run certification program.

4 What we want to know is what are those

5 requirements? What are the details? When do

6 notifications need to be made? How many unites need to

7 be tested? What type of lab are they tested in? I

8 mean, I wasn't trying to be -- when I was asking Bill

9 all of those questions, it's the details where things,

10 where the comparisons will be made to see if things are

11 equitable. If we come up saying, yes, the Department

12 should require as DOE verification program and to your

13 point Karim, you don't believe the Department should --

14 your concern is the Department shouldn't just

15 rubberstamp things, and you know, anything that we

16 would say yes, this meets the Department approved

17 verification program, should be of equal stringency a

18 the AHRI program. Well, what does that mean?

19 And it's hard to say -- Bill, I've read the

20 operations manuals. And while they are absolutely

21 grand, there are a lot of details like the questions we

22 were asking today that aren't in them. And you guys
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1 know how you run your program, so that's what we're

2 trying to get at. What is it that we could say and it

3 might be that we just require people to turn over their

4 operations manuals and when they're not -- you know,

5 but it would be some level, some of the things on our

6 slide is those details.

7 How are products selected? How often are the

8 selected? When is the Department notified about what's

9 selected? You know, those are the types of things

10 we're trying to iron out and understand. What is the

11 program that you are running?

12 MR. TRITSIS: Ashley, I keep on referring to

13 the 50-page document, okay, that describes a lot of

14 what you're looking for; including how to select the

15 units, how many units to select, and how to test them,

16 and all of that. Okay.

17 So, you know, it's easy if you have done the

18 due diligence that you are talking about to send us a

19 list of questionnaires so we can answer one-by-one

20 these questions that you might have so we can, you

21 know, you can considered all these into your

22 verification program. Okay.
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1 So, what I'm trying to say to you is, you

2 know, what's in here has been tested over year after

3 year for tens of years. Okay. Just whatever questions

4 you might have, send them to us and we can tell you.

5 Like, you know, like the --

6 MS. ARMSTRONG: Yeah, but --

7 MR. TRITSIS: Earlier on you asked, you know,

8 what are these nuances or what are we doing? I sent

9 you an example, okay, of how we test the units and what

10 checklists we are using at the laboratory. I told you

11 how a manufacturer's program like AHRI's provides

12 guidance and instructions to the laboratory. Either to

13 set up the laboratory, before even the laboratory's

14 been built. You know, for example, the VRF program was

15 set up at Intertek with the manufacturer's help. The

16 technicians were trained at Intertek in Plano where the

17 program has been run by the manufacturers. Okay.

18 That's the value that a program provides that you might

19 lose if you lower the bar.

20 MS. BARHYDT: So, let's see -- let's say a

21 standard is 10 EER and that's the federal minimum.

22 Everybody knows that everything sold or at least ought
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1 to meet that standard. But that doesn't stop a

2 manufacturer from saying I make a 14 EER and deriving

3 benefit from that. And so, what I don't understand is

4 if -- right now you've got AHRI members who are being

5 held to this standard and if you're not an AHRI member,

6 you are not being held to any standard. There is no

7 verification testing. So unless DOE randomly goes out

8 and buys something and tests it and it fails, or unless

9 some competitor happens to go out and challenge you

10 through AHRI's program, unless you us one of these

11 mechanisms, there is no one checking what you're

12 claiming.

13 I don't understand how DOE imposing some

14 lesser burden, but more than what it is right now,

15 which is zero. To say, you know, we're going to do

16 some amount of checking. Maybe it's not going to be as

17 much as AHRI does, but some amount of checking, just to

18 make sure that there's at least some threat that if

19 you're not doing what you're supposed to be doing that

20 you will be caught.

21 How that undermines the value that AHRI

22 members see in their position as AHRI members, to me
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1 the closer it gets the more it would undermine AHRI.

2 The bigger the difference, the more AHRI can set itself

3 apart and say, "Members of AHRI are held to this AHRI

4 standard and this is what AHRI does." And the federal

5 standard -- if it goes from there's no verification to

6 there is some verification, that's better. But maybe

7 it's not cost- justified to raise everybody to the same

8 level as the AHRI.

9 MR. CALABRESE: This is Dave Calabrese with

10 AHRI. Maybe there is a distinction between

11 verification testing and enforcement testing.

12 Of course the Agency has every right and they

13 should be ensuring that all parties -- all

14 manufacturers are manufacturing product that meets the

15 standards and we, of course, do not disagree at all.

16 In fact, if you may do enforcement testing on products

17 that are in our program. I mean, that's your right as

18 an enforcement agency.

19 The difference is, if you were to establish a

20 DOE certified -- let's say, at this low bar that we

21 keep talking about. It doesn't require much of

22 anything. You just have to certify that I have a lab
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1 and I tested it in the lab and boom, my products now

2 certified.

3 Manufacturers in the AHRI program are doing

4 20 percent of their units. They're having challenge

5 testing, they're subjected to the challenge testing.

6 They are at this very high bar and these are high

7 efficiency, we know the products meet the standards.

8 These others are at a very low level. They

9 have a competitive advantage and now DOE is inserting

10 itself in the marketplace and creating a competitive

11 advantage to now you can be DOE certified. And AHRI

12 certified, this supposed Cadillac program, really has

13 you know, it would have diminished value. So you are

14 creating a dynamic in the market place where now this

15 new label now has some cachet and in providing

16 competitive marketing advantage to someone who is doing

17 much less than those who for 50-plus years have been

18 doing.

19 MS. BARHYDT: Okay, so I think I now

20 understand the disconnect. DOE is not saying that we

21 want to have a DOE certified list. DOE is not saying

22 we want to run a certification program. It is still a
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1 manufacturer self- certification, the same way it is

2 right now.

3 All we're saying is that there would be a

4 level of verification for the Department to get a

5 feedback loop, so to speak, on those self6 certifications. No one would ever be permitted to say

7 that they were DOE certified. There would be no label.

8 There would be no government endorsement of products.

9 MS. MEYERS: But Laura, that's what your

10 database does.

11 MR. AMRANE: Exactly.

12 MS. MEYERS: That's what your database

13 implies to people looking at those models.

14 MS. ARMSTRONG: Except it has a large

15 disclaimer explaining that it doesn't, right on it.

16 MS. MEYERS: That disclaimer doesn't do

17 anything. You are comparing all units alike. And so,

18 the problem comes in with your database and you're

19 listing products right after each other and to the

20 person looking at that, they all look equal.

21 MS. BARHYDT: So we can take our website down

22 and Tim's going to scream.
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1 MR. MYERS: This is Frank Myers, PVI. What

2 is the DOE directory, where these model existed -- and

3 they're several ways it could be handled. Two sections

4 or a very clear designation by each model, basic model

5 that it's either one, covered by a DOE recognized

6 verification program or two, not covered by a DOE

7 recognized verification program and subject to enhanced

8 DOE monitoring?

9 Or don't put in that last part, but where you

10 recognize so if --

11 MS. BARHYDT: So if --

12 MR. MYERS: -- a program that wanted to

13 provide payments for higher efficiency equipment. If

14 they were looking in the directory, the DOE listings of

15 products, it would be very clear those that had

16 undergone a verification program and those that was

17 recognized by DOE and then, the others would not have

18 that recognition.

19 MS. BARHYDT: So I think what we are talking

20 about though, is requiring everyone to participate in

21 some kind of a program and I think the disagreement is

22 over what level that should be and whether or not that
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1 constitutes DOE inserting itself into a part of the

2 marketplace and competing. Whereas, what you're

3 suggesting would be that there was an option to

4 participate or not participate and DOE is -- I mean,

5 what we've talking about is that everybody would be

6 required to participate.

7 MR. MYERS: That wasn't my intent. I could

8 see how you could take what I was saying as meaning

9 that. I would say that everybody has to meet and

10 you've been talking about some minimum level of

11 requirement which could have whatever variables we need

12 to address, but that would not be a recognized

13 verification program. It would just be meeting the

14 minimum.

15 So that it's clear in the directory that you

16 can't get in there, you can't manufacture in the U.S.

17 if you don't meet some minimum requirement, but it's

18 still not the -- I'm trying to preserve whether it's

19 the AHRI program, a UL program or anyone else's higher

20 level program, that that becomes the recognized program

21 and then those that are not in that have to meet some

22 base minimum.
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1 MR. BALLO: This is Tim Ballo. I wouldn't

2 object to having another column in the database to

3 indicate the verification program that applies to your

4 product, whether it's AHRI or UL or some other

5 manufacturer self-directed program.

6 To the point about having -- being concerned

7 about claims made, DOE certified, that sort of thing,

8 you know, the FTC I think has been very clear to use

9 the example of Energy Guide rated with manufacturers

10 making claims in their product listings that because

11 they carry an Energy Guide label that somehow implies

12 some enhanced verification or certification of their

13 product, that the FTC has come out and said that is

14 plainly, we think, contrary to the FTC Act and would be

15 fineable if we catch manufacturers doing that.

16 I don't see why they couldn't do a similar

17 thing for a DOE certified product.

18 MS. BARHYDT: We do occasionally get

19 manufacturers making that claim and we have a nice or a

20 not-so-nice letter that we send to those manufacturers,

21 so you cannot make that claim.

22 MR. BAUMAN: This is Jeff Bauman from
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1 National. It seems like when we talk about a comparable

2 -- which is people with AC lists, AC numbers, models,

3 or manufacturers are going to use it for comparison.

4 Are we talking about -- it almost seems like we'd be

5 better off with -- and Tim and I'm sure some folks may

6 have some issues with this, is not -- for DOE to not

7 publish the actual rating number, but just publish a

8 pass/fail kind of thing and then if somebody wanted to

9 know a rating they would have to go to some certified

10 program from somebody That's really where you have a

11 differentiation is if you're publishing those numbers,

12 people are going to take it whether there's a list next

13 to it or whatever, unless they know that in detail,

14 they're going to use it as their shopping list to say,

15 okay, whose got the best energy consumption versus DOE

16 just saying pass/fail.

17

18 Maybe that information is available, but you

19 would have to go contact DOE to get the ratings or

20 whatever.

21 I'm just saying on the website, to make the

22 DOE website list for any product not a shopping list,
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1 you don't publish the ratings on the website.

2 MS. BARHYDT: I think at this point that

3 would be difficult for us to do because we've received

4 so many FOIAs that FOIA actually requires us to publish

5 information that is getting routinely FOIAed.

6 MR. BALLO: Isn't there also a value to the

7 AHRI list, apart from the DOE list. I mean, from my

8 experience with the AHRI list it contains a lot more

9 columns of information about the products than the DOE

10 list does. The DOE will just have, you know,

11 information that allows you to discern the product

12 class and the rating. AHRI typically has, I mean, I'm

13 drawing a blank on a particular product where I could

14 use this as an example, but they have a lot more

15 information about the product that's really useful for

16 the consumer, the installer, or contractor.

17 MS. MEYERS: This is Karen with Rheem. And

18 you're right, it does. But that may be the second step

19 in a purchasing process. The first step may be the DOE

20 website where the initial shopping occurs. And so, I

21 actually think that Jeff came up with a great idea.

22 And I would support that idea of just not publishing
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1 the ratings on the DOE website.

2 MS. BARHYDT: Our website is not nearly as

3 easy to use as yours. Why would anyone use ours?

4 MR. DOPPEL: Paul Doppel with Mitsubishi. To

5 me, I just have a lot of concerns that there are a lot

6 of potential unintended consequences from this. And

7 you know, we really need to think this through because

8 the concerns that we've raised of, you know, this list

9 being consider as a de facto certification program.

10 You know, that has to be -- from my perspective, has to

11 be avoided at all costs. Because then it's going to

12 devalue, you know, what a lot of us have spent a lot of

13 money and time in getting our brand associated with the

14 AHRI directory and that means a lot.

15 I mean, that's where we would hope people

16 would go first to find out about products, as opposed

17 to DoE.

18 MR. KLEISS: Jeff Kleiss, Lochinvar.

19 I've got a question -- Marshall, are you

20 still on the line?

21 (No response.)

22 MR. KLEISS: Maybe not. Okay. What I was
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1 looking for is from the perspective of the utilities --

2 MR. HUNT: Yes, I am.

3 MR. KLEISS: Okay, thanks. With respect to

4 utilities, which I think are the primary source of

5 energy efficiency rebates, my experience so far is that

6 AHRI certified efficiency has been the threshold or

7 required for determining qualification for efficiency

8 rebates. Do you see that being maintained, carried

9 forward or is there a certain threshold that you would

10 get to that you would consider using DOE verification

11 to qualify for rebates?

12 MR. HUNT: This is Marshall Hunt, PG&E. We

13 very much are involved in the Consortium for Energy

14 Efficiency, who has for some years now had an agreement

15 with AHRI to where we can go to their website, we the

16 utilities then go -- it's slightly modified and as I

17 see it on the web, version of the certification

18 programs, and I see that as an excellent way to go. In

19 fact, I have supported an extension of that funding by

20 CEE and hope that we can actually increase that effort,

21 because it is so easy to use.

22 CEE establishes the tiers. We would like to
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1 give the manufacturers as big as a market as possible

2 and all the utilities try to set their incentives based

3 on the Consortium for Energy Efficiency tier structure.

4 Does that answer it?

5 MR. AMRANE: Yes. This is Karim with AHRI.

6 But Marshall, what you're referring to is

7 only for residential products. This does not apply to

8 the commercial product we are dealing with in the

9 working group.

10 MR. HUNT: That is true. As I said, I hope

11 we will be able to expand it, because it has been so

12 successful in residential. And so, I'm sort of

13 predicting or setting into the future and hope to be

14 working with AHRI, because I'm on various committee

15 with CEE, that we would be able to continue this

16 successful approach for our customers.

17 MR. TRITSIS: This is Bill Tritsis, AHRI.

18 Just to correct something. Yes, we are working with

19 CEE for a number of years. The portal CEE is

20 displaying is looking into the AHRI directory. We are

21 working with CEE to expand to the heating programs as

22 well, heating and residential and commercial as well.
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1 So this is something that should be coming up pretty

2 soon.

3 At the same time, you know, it's another

4 agency like EPA is using the AHRI directory for

5 listings of Energy Star products for the residential.

6 These are the market dynamics that we think the DOE

7 website will change. Okay. And I think, you know, the

8 caution that you have -- you know, been asked to look

9 into it, is a valid statement.

10 MR. STARR: This is Louis Starr with NEEA.

11 I wonder tomorrow, after Frank presents

12 AHRI's program for the boilers that that might help

13 move the conversation along. I mean, it seems to me a

14 lot that we've kind of mimicked AHRI's program,

15 certainly in the commercial air conditioning equipment

16 and some of the other things. So, it seems like that

17 could be at least a foundation for what the discussion

18 is. For some of the concerns expressed, but just for a

19 framework for what there is because it seems like now

20 there isn't a framework at all of what could be, and

21 that perhaps, would be a good starting place.

22 MR. EISNER: Would it help for the sake of
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1 discussion we took boilers out of it and talked about

2 everybody else?

3 MR. MYERS: This is Frank Myers. We talk

4 about boilers, but really for me, that's a buzz word

5 for build- to-order, engineered-to-order products.

6 Because very similar to the kinds of issues that they

7 have product availability, it's not just size. It's

8 the cost and we have smaller input products that have

9 exceedingly high costs because of the specialty of

10 their design.

11 So, I understand the thought, if boilers

12 means build-to-order, engineered-to-order, then I would

13 be in agreement. But it isn't just boilers. And I

14 haven't spoken up like that because I've just used that

15 as a buzz phrase for this group of issues. I think CRE

16 has some of the same feelings that the boiler folks do.

17 MR. SACHS: This is Harvey. And Frank, would

18 it be feasible to build either one or two definitions

19 of build-to-order, engineered-to-order that might even

20 span both boilers and CRE?

21 Could we get language that we could use in

22 trying to make that distinction?
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1 MR. MYERS: This is Frank Myers. I'd

2 certainly be willing to give that a try. So at least

3 we could have something to talk about.

4 MR. EISNER: Other thoughts on this approach?

5 MR. MOLVIE: This is Pete Molvie with Cleaver

6 Brooks. Is it as simple as they're not built for

7 inventory?

8 MS. BARHYDT: Charlie?

9 MR. HON: I think there is a huge difference

10 between built to inventory and custom products. There

11 are lots of products in this room that are built only

12 to order, but are sold countless times a year.

13 MS. BARHYDT: So they're not engineered-to14 order, but the same challenge would exist in terms of

15 having units available for testing. Because absent an

16 order, there's no inventory.

17 MR. STARR: This is Louis Starr with NEEA. I

18 guess another question is, I had taken it that it was

19 the boilers. I think we heard the boiler manufacturers

20 saying that there's really not ever a problem with

21 what's in the marketplace in terms of the efficiency

22 claims and the actual efficiency. Would that be true
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1 of some of the other custom equipment, as well or not

2 so much so?

3 MR. EISNER: Any response to that?

4 MS. HOOTMAN: Jill Hootman, Trane. I think

5 the commercial HVAC manufacturers have said we're in a

6 "certify all" program with AHRI, so those are

7 certified, built-to-order are certified.

8 If it falls under the scope of the program,

9 you have to certify all.

10 MR. STARR: What's the difference between

11 your product and Frank's product that's built-to-order

12 MR. MYERS: This is Frank Myers, PVI. We

13 actually don't participate in the -- we don't have any

14 products that are in the AHRI program. However, were I

15 to be in the water heater side, the scope there covers

16 products in two ways. One is mandatory and then you

17 get above a certain point it becomes optional. You

18 have the opportunity to put your products in, but

19 you're not required to put your products in and

20 similarly, with boilers. So that you have to put them

21 in up to a certain BTU input and above that you can put

22 them in, but you're not required to.
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1 MS. BARHYDT: I suggest that we go to lunch.

2 Everybody seems to be running low on fuel.

3 MR. EISNER: Okay. I've got one o'clock.

4 Let's come back at two o'clock.

5 (Whereupon, at 1:00 p.m., a luncheon recess

6 was taken.)

7 MR. EISNER: Can everybody take their seats

8 and we'll get started?

9 Did anybody work out the solution to this

10 morning's issues want to raise their hand?

11 MR. SACHS: I'm sorry, I didn't.

12 MR. HON: We have a question. Several of us

13 were discussing this at lunch, but we have a question.

14 What would the DOE consider minimum/maximum amount of

15 units to verify in a year?

16 MS. BARHYDT: Minimum, greater than one.

17 MR. HON: Okay. Greater than one or what?

18 MS. BARHYDT: One or more.

19 MR. HON: One or more, okay.

20 MS. BARHYDT: Greater than or equal to.

21 MR. HON: Okay. And maximum?

22 MS. BARHYDT: I don't think I know a maximum.
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1 MR. HON: Okay. Percentage-wise of the total

2 units we list on all of our models?

3 MS. BARHYDT: I am very, very, very open to

4 negotiation. You know how many models you have way

5 better than I do.

6 MR. HON: Right.

7 MS. BARHYDT: And so DOE would like to see

8 some minimum amount of verification testing going on

9 funded by the manufacturers. Beyond that, I don't

10 think we have a real specific agenda of we want to see

11 X-percent of things on the market. We understand there

12 are a lot of different circumstances. There are a lot

13 of different types of products. There are different --

14 we've talked about the built inventory, custom built.

15 We understand there are a lot of different scenarios

16 and situations, and we are willing to be very flexible.

17 And it may be that the negotiation reaches a

18 conclusion. And I think it was Rusty who had the

19 really cool spreadsheet, that it was a multifactor

20 program where the more you test, it eases up on some of

21 the other burdens; and the less you test, it tightens

22 up. We are completely open to that kind of thing. We
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1 would just like to see some kind of verification funded

2 by the manufacturers on an ongoing basis.

3 MR. SACHS: This is Harvey. And there's

4 really a parallel program -- or parallel question for

5 AHRI. We've heard a lot about the 20 percent of basic

6 model groups with variations for some program. And I

7 think the question that's in my mind as I'm trying to

8 think about a question to you is the question whether

9 these numbers were derived at analytically through

10 statistical analysis, these sample sizes, or whether

11 these were experiential-based that this seemed to be

12 enough, but not too burdensome. So is there an

13 analytical basis for the percentages and numbers used

14 AHRI that would be of use to DOE or are these

15 experiential and still may be of use?

16 MR. AMRANE: This is Karim with AHRI. I

17 think it's mostly based on experience, 50 years running

18 programs. That's how those numbers were established.

19 So it's really those have changed along the way and

20 today that's what it is.

21 MR. SACHS: Thank you, Karim, but I could

22 infer from that that if it fit well enough that nobody
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1 has seriously commissioned a study of whether, you

2 know, half that number would be adequate. I think

3 that's an important question.

4 MR. HURST: Harvey, I will tell you as a

5 manufacturer the way we look at it from the standpoint

6 of how much we are tested, if you look at the product

7 life cycle, some of our platforms will go 3 years, some

8 of them will go 12 years. Once every 5 years seems

9 about right to hit most of the product that's going to

10 be sold into commerce. If you were in a technology

11 field, like computers, 5 years would probably be too

12 long, but I think for the cycle time of our products --

13 and, again, wide variability in the product portfolio

14 that we're talking about here. But for us, it seems

15 about right, and that's not scientific, but that's how

16 we look at it.

17 MR. SACHS: Thanks, John. And that's

18 actually very important. It's not a perspective I had

19 thought about and that suggests for somebody like

20 Cleaver Brooks that's making nothing but heirloom

21 products --

22 MR. MOLVIE: That are perfect.
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1 MR. SACHS: Perfect heirloom products that

2 has a long product life cycle and I'm sure your

3 products in general are that way as well.

4 MR. HALLEY: Well, we're, you know, right

5 along with Cleaver Brooks really.

6 MR. SACHS: So that much smaller verification

7 burden, if any, and the asymptote on that is none, is

8 quite appropriate.

9 MR. HON: This is Charlie Hon. One other

10 comment. We previously had discussed there was going

11 to be some idea of how to -- I know AHRI had said they

12 would consider looking at this, how the base model

13 concept they have right now versus the DOE's base model

14 concept. Numbers-wise, how do they coordinate?

15 MR. AMRANE: This is Karim with AHRI. We

16 haven't done that. And that's the thing, it was too

17 fresh. I mean, so many factors we'll have to go back

18 and look at based on the new definition that we agreed

19 to, you know, how that would translate to. But that's

20 why I think for us the concept of a basic model group I

21 think is something we should be discussing because,

22 based on experience, we felt that that's the best way
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1 of handling the number of the many tests that we're

2 doing.

3 MR. HON: This is Charlie Hon. And that's

4 why I'm asking that question because that's one of the

5 drivers to make this work. We have to get the concept

6 of basic models for DOE versus the basic models for

7 AHRI. And then we would have some comparative analysis.

8 Say that we would, under your definition and DOE

9 definition we would have three times as many basic

10 models as AHRI would have, then we would be looking at

11 about an 8 percent test rate to match his test rate.

12 But if it's 4 times as much it'd be 5 percent. But

13 obviously as an optional program they're wanting to be

14 above the minimum rate so that they have a marketable

15 product saying ours is tested more severely than the

16 government's test. And so we're just trying to get

17 some feel for that, where does this fall?

18 MS. BARHYDT: So we were thinking that given

19 the wide variety of products and the very different

20 places where I think all the different manufacturers

21 are, we were thinking it might be useful for people to

22 break up into the different product areas. And I don't
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1 know how that will end up working for those of us who

2 aren't aligned with a single product, but that maybe it

3 would be beneficial to have the various product areas

4 just sit down and come up with a proposal for their own

5 product for build-to-order custom, but also the

6 inventory products, and everybody come up with actual

7 proposals. Because we have talked about a lot of

8 issues. We seem to be starting to talk in circles a

9 little bit, and I think we need to get some actual

10 concrete proposals down on the table.

11 MR. KLEISS: Jeff Kleiss, Lochinvar. We

12 should probably outline what specific questions, what

13 deliverables you want out of those discussions.

14 MS. ARMSTRONG: (Off microphone.)

15 MS. BARHYDT: Yeah. Does everyone still have

16 their slide package from probably three meetings ago?

17 MR. SACHS: (Off microphone.)

18 MS. BARHYDT: 7-31; 2013 up in the top right19 hand corner.

20 MR. SACHS: Thank you.

21 MS. BARHYDT: And starting on Slide Number --

22 starting there. All right. Starting on Slide 27 there
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1 are a series of questions and issue. And so it would be

2 addressing all of those different aspects.

3 MR. MYERS: This is Frank Myers with PVI. I

4 had tossed out a general proposal. It doesn't answer

5 the questions, Laura, I think that you're looking for,

6 the specificity, but that is to have essentially two

7 tiers identified in the DOE listing so that the

8 directory shows the source of the claim deficiency. I

9 tossed some wording together where you would identify

10 each basic model as being either efficiency claim

11 provided and verified by DOE to recognize verification

12 program or efficiency provided by manufacturer.

13 All products would have to meet whatever

14 level we agree on as the continuing review of the

15 product. That doesn't have to be included in this

16 designation. So where I say "efficiency claim provided

17 by the manufacturer," you would still have to meet

18 whatever we come up with, but that way there'd be two

19 levels. If we went that way, what would the efficiency

20 be for and how would we characterize the first level,

21 which is the DOE- recognized verification program?

22 What would be the identifying characteristics of that?
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1 The second would be what is this base level?

2 If you're going to be a manufacturer's claimed

3 deficiency, what base level of continuing review do you

4 have to have?

5 So if we go that way, we would need two sets

6 of characterizations: one for the product at this

7 minimum level and the other for the verification

8 program.

9 MS. BARHYDT: So are folks amenable to

10 breaking into small groups?

11 MR. EISNER: How much time do you want to

12 take?

13 MS. BARHYDT: Pick a group, I have to.

14 MR. AMRANE: I don't think that all the

15 groups are represented here anyway, so I'm not sure. I

16 mean, we've got so many products --

17 MS. ARMSTRONG: Yeah. So I think from the

18 Department's perspective -- I think DOE's perspective

19 we're looking to get some words on a screen to discuss.

20 In other words, we've heard a lot of discussion in the

21 past couple weeks and the only way to potentially move

22 this forward is to start somewhere with some words that
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1 we can either agree to or disagree to and see if we can

2 go from there. So we're hoping that by doing some type

3 of breakout DOE can also give it a shot separately that

4 we can come up with something that can start the

5 discussions of, yes, this is going in the right

6 direction; no. And if we're really that far off from

7 everything, then we go from there.

8 UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: What are the

9 recommended groups?

10 MS. ARMSTRONG: You can do it by product type

11 in terms of like boilers, water heaters, HVAC.

12 MS. BARHYDT: CRE.

13 MS. ARMSTRONG: CRE. So those are the four

14 big ones, if that would work. Or you might want to put

15 boilers and water heaters together, I don't know.

16 They're kind of different, though. That's kind of up

17 to you guys.

18 MS. BARHYDT: Or you could just do build to

19 inventory, build to stock, custom, and not do it

20 product- specific. It depends on what you all think

21 will work in terms of proposals.

22 MR. SACHS: Laura, this is Harvey. My ears
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1 don't always work well, but I think it's got to start

2 with product, then drill down.

3 MS. BARHYDT: I tend to think so, too.

4 MR. SACHS: Besides, that gives me an excuse

5 to go get coffee while you all are negotiating.

6 MS. BARHYDT: What did you do at lunch,

7 Harvey?

8 MR. MYERS: This is Frank Myers, PVI. Would

9 gas-fired products be -- gas- or oil-fired products,

10 combustion products be one group and ACB another group,

11 then perhaps CRE a third group?

12 MS. BARHYDT: So you're suggesting water

13 heater and boiler should go together?

14 MR. MYERS: Yes.

15 MS. HOOTMAN: But when you're saying gas16 fired you're not including the gas-fired package units

17 that commercial HVAC makes? We have commercial

18 furnaces --

19 MR. MYERS: Sure.

20 MS. HOOTMAN: -- CFRN, so how are you going

21 to split --

22 MR. MYERS: I'm just trying to figure where
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1 to --

2 MS. HOOTMAN: -- about 10 of us in the room?

3 You're going to split us in half.

4 MR. MYERS: Yeah.

5 MR. WHITWELL: Commercial furnaces should

6 stay with the commercial HVAC.

7 MS. HOOTMAN: Yes.

8 MR. MYERS: Okay.

9 (Off microphone discussion.)

10 MR. EISNER: Do we have some consensus on the

11 groups?

12 MS. BARHYDT: Okay, so -- go ahead.

13 MR. KLEISS: Jeff with Lochinvar. I think

14 that we might need to go through a couple of iterations

15 of this since there are overlaps, so I'd suggest, from

16 my perspective, start with boilers.

17 MS. BARHYDT: So we break for an hour and

18 then reconvene and let people switch groups if they

19 want to switch? Or we break for two hours? How long

20 do you all -- there are a lot of aspects and questions

21 and issues to go over, but I just saw Jeff for one, one

22 hour.
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1 MR. HURST: Check in after an hour.

2 MS. BARHYDT: Check in after an hour. Does

3 that work?

4 MR. EISNER: What are the groups?

5 MS. BARHYDT: So CRE --

6 MR. EISNER: Boilers, CRE --

7 MR. WHITWELL: HVAC.

8 MS. BARHYDT: -- HVAC, and then were boilers

9 and water heaters going together or separate?

10 UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: (Off microphone.)

11 MS. BARHYDT: Together, okay. So boilers and

12 water heaters are together.

13 MR. EISNER: Okay.

14 MR. WHITWELL: And Harvey is going to get

15 coffee.

16 MS. BARHYDT: And Harvey's going to get

17 coffee.

18 So I will look into some additional space,

19 but one suggestion has been one group at the back, one

20 group at the front. Whatever the smallest group is, I

21 think I can get you a conference room on my floor, but

22 it is a small conference room so it would definitely
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1 need to be the smallest group.

2 MR. WHITWELL: Why don't you have people

3 raise their hands --

4 MS. BARHYDT: Okay. So who's going to HVAC?

5 (Hands raised.)

6 MS. BARHYDT: Who's going to water

7 heater/boiler?

8 (Hands raised.)

9 MS. BARHYDT: Okay, that's definitely bigger.

10 And CRE?

11 (Hands raised.)

12 MR. EISNER: They're all big.

13 MS. BARHYDT: They're all about the same.

14 Okay, so much for that theory because I don't think any

15 of you all -- any of those groups would fit into the

16 conference room we have.

17 UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: We could go to the

18 coat closet.

19 MS. BARHYDT: Oh, we could pull chairs over

20 into the closet where AHRI met before. That would

21 work.

22 MR. WHITWELL: Yeah.
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1 MS. BARHYDT: So, everybody good to go?

2 MR. SACHS: You haven't told which group is

3 where.

4 MS. BARHYDT: I figure you all can work out

5 where you want to meet. Okay, so boilers and water

6 heaters are going to the back room because it was

7 Jeff's idea.

8 UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: Who is in the closet?

9 MS. BARHYDT: Apparently water heaters and

10 boilers.

11 UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: Okay.

12 MS. BARHYDT: CRE's here, HVAC in that half

13 of the room. So be back at 3:30. 3:30, everybody.

14 (Whereupon, the meeting recessed into

15 product work groups at 2:27 p.m. and went

16 back on the record at 3:57 p.m.)

17 MR. EISNER: Can everybody take your seats?

18 (Pause.)

19 MS. BARHYDT: Okay, this is Laura Barhydt

20 again. Ashley isn't sure if she's going to stay until

21 6:00 and she actually wanted to raise an issue on the

22 motors issue for people to think about, so if you all
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1 don't mind completely shifting gears and then we'll

2 come back to our little breakout sessions.

3 MS. ARMSTRONG: Because Jill asked about it,

4 really.

5 So, this is Ashley from DOE. This is mostly

6 what you have seen before except we've revised the

7 language on the slide and the reason I wanted to show

8 it to you now is because we would like to take a vote

9 on it tomorrow, and it's going to require some thought,

10 I think, from you guys because specifically it's a

11 concept and I realize that we've seen some of the back

12 and forths that have been going back and we appreciate

13 you guys' efforts to work with NEMA and the motor

14 manufacturers and provide -- so, you'll see, based on

15 what we discussed this morning, one of the questions

16 Harvey asked, the Department's position on that

17 question, you see some -- two bullets at the end which

18 weren't there before, one is, an electric motor for

19 which a DOE test procedure does not exist cannot be

20 grouped with a DOE covered motor for purposes of

21 certification.

22 So, that means you can't go from like an ECM
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1 to a different type of motor. In other words, where

2 there's scaling that can't clearly be defined, and then

3 a non- covered motor can be grouped together if a

4 recognized test procedure is used to ensure that all

5 motors in the grouping have the same relative

6 performance. That gets to Bob's point. The question

7 would be: what is this recognized test procedure? It

8 is our understanding that motor manufacturers currently

9 use some type of input/output method to roughly

10 determine the efficiency. We would have to work -- the

11 Department is committed to working on with you the

12 recognized test procedure part of it so that the

13 scaling could then apply, but we want to agree to the

14 concept so we can wrap up the basic model package.

15 You wanted to think about it tonight, right?

16 MR. WHITWELL: Okay, but I have a

17 clarification question. The first bullet point you

18 talked about -- Bob Whitwell from Carrier -- an

19 electric motor for which DOE test procedure does not

20 exist cannot be grouped with DOE covered motors for

21 purposes of clarification.

22 I think it's very likely that many
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1 manufacturers could have cases where for standard

2 static, they are using a 58 frame motor that would not

3 be covered by DOE test procedure, but then as you go to

4 higher static, it could be a general purpose motor

5 that's covered by the DOE test procedure.

6 So, this would say that there would not be a

7 high static -- DOE would not allow a high static

8 application unless that general purpose motor is tested

9 at a very low static -- external static condition where

10 you're going to be running well below the high

11 efficiency -- well below the peak efficiency of the

12 motor curb.

13 So, that, to me, is -- represents a problem.

14 MR. EISNER: Any other issues or problems?

15 MR. WHITWELL: There may be others, but

16 that's one that jumps out right now.

17 MR. RIVEST: So, I didn't understand.

18 MR. WHITWELL: So, when you start -- I know

19 for example we have cases when you start getting up

20 into the 15-ton range --

21 MR. RIVEST: Okay.

22 MR. WHITWELL: -- where we will use a non-
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1 covered motor for our standard static -- for our

2 standard rating --

3 MR. RIVEST: So, non-covered here is in the

4 context of --

5 MR. WHITWELL: Not covered by DOE

6 efficiencies is what I understand this to be.

7 MR. RIVEST: But I'm really talking about the

8 test procedure here. So, in other words, we don't want

9 - - DOE doesn't want you to match in the same grouping

10 motors that can be rated with motors that cannot be

11 rated.

12 MR. WHITWELL: Okay, but --

13 MR. RIVEST: Covered/not-covered is not from

14 a standard point of view. It's covered, as in test

15 procedure. So, we need to clarify that language.

16

17

18 MR. WHITWELL: Okay.

19 MR. RIVEST: So, your motor, it may not be

20 covered by DOE regulation, but it does have an

21 efficiency value because there is a DOE test procedure

22 that, so you could do that grouping.
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1 MR. WHITWELL: Okay, so who is responsible

2 for coming up with the efficiency for that motor? I

3 mean, I have a motor curve -- I have a curve of -- an

4 efficiency curve from the manufacturer, so is that my

5 responsibility to determine what that efficiency is?

6 Or do I use that data from the manufacturer?

7 MR. RIVEST: Was this a definite purpose

8 motor?

9 MR. WHITWELL: No. This is a -- say, a 58-

10 frame, so a fractional -- you know, it's not a --

11 definite purpose, sorry, not a general purpose motor.

12 MR. RIVEST: It can be tested, yes.

13 MR. WHITWELL: Who?

14 MR. RIVEST: Well, the manufacturer will do

15 it.

16 MS. ARMSTRONG: So, yes it would be your

17 responsibility to work with the motor manufacturer to

18 make sure that -- and you have some level of

19 performance that you know for your base motor, and that

20 you're maintaining that level of performance for the

21 higher statics in order to qualify for this exclusion.

22 MR. BALLO: Would it be helpful for the
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1 manufacturers in the room to have a list of the motors

2 where this would actually be a problem? Is it only the

3 air over motors or other motors that are -- that would

4 sort of relegate you to a single set of motors for that

5 product?

6 MS. ARMSTRONG: It depends on what they put

7 in their products, right? So, it's really to them.

8 MR. RIVEST: The only motor class we're aware

9 of that can't be rated according to the test procedure

10 is the air over. So, that's the one that you couldn't

11 incorporate in the larger grouping.

12 MR. WHITWELL: Sorry, I'm not familiar.

13 Where could I find the definition of the air over?

14 MR. RIVEST: Exact definition?

15 MS. ARMSTRONG: You want the one we proposed?

16 MR. WHITWELL: Yeah.

17 MS. ARMSTRONG: Let's see. We proposed one

18 in the open rulemaking for electric motor in the test

19 procedure. An air over electric motor means a motor

20 designed to be cooled by a ventilating means external

21 to and not supplied with the motor.

22 MR. JOHNSON: Tom Johnson. Is that the same
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1 as NEMA definition?

2 MS. ARMSTRONG: I think it was based on, so

3 it's either the same or pretty close to being based on.

4 MR. JOHNSON: Okay.

5 MS. ARMSTRONG: I don't have that right in

6 front of me but, yeah. But yeah, that's the idea. It

7 would be comparable to what NEMA and the motor

8 manufacturers currently refer to as an air over

9 electric motor.

10 It is our understanding that the existing DOE

11 test procedure can apply to the rest, or at least the

12 ones we've heard of.

13 MR. WHITWELL: Okay. I'm not sure I can vote

14 on this tomorrow because I don't know whether the data

15 that I have from the manufacturer is tested per the DOE

16 test procedure or not, I mean, I have data from the

17 manufacturer, but I don't know whether it's per the DOE

18 procedure or not. I need time to find out.

19 So, I don't know whether I have an issue or

20 not.

21 MR. RIVEST: Okay.

22 MR. EISNER: Will you be able to find out by
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1 Wednesday or it looks like you're going into next week?

2 MR. WHITWELL: I don't know. I will have to

3 try.

4 MR. EISNER: Fair enough.

5 MS. ARMSTRONG: I mean, the DOE test

6 procedure is the industry test procedure.

7 MR. WHITWELL: You know, it's a matter of we

8 need to go to our motor suppliers and ask them if they

9 test -- if this data that we have is per the DOE test

10 procedure. Hopefully they will know the answer to

11 that. I don't know, I mean, I'm not familiar with this.

12 This is proposed.

13 MS. MEYERS: So, is the rule final on these

14 motors?

15 MS. ARMSTRONG: It depends on the type. We

16 have an open rule for the test procedure right now for

17 certain types of motors, which is clarifying where we

18 currently don't have standards but we have cover

19 motors, it's clarifying that the existing test

20 procedure is applicable to them because they're already

21 being used. It's already being used for them.

22 MR. WHITWELL: So, are motor manufacturers
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1 aware of the test procedure?

2 MS. ARMSTRONG: Absolutely. And they're

3 already using it. This was part of their, like, joint

4 proposal to the Department consensus.

5 MR. WHITWELL: So how do we -- is there a

6 reference we should use when we ask the motor

7 manufacturer if they're testing per the test procedure?

8 MS. ARMSTRONG: Yeah, I can give it to you.

9 MR. WHITWELL: Okay.

10 MS. ARMSTRONG: That's the existing one.

11 MS. BARHYDT: (Off microphone.)

12 MR. RIVEST: So, basically the second bullet

13 says that you can't mix motors that can be rated with

14 those that can't be rated, and the third bullet says

15 that if you have, for example, air over motors and

16 they're being used in the whole grouping, then we're

17 looking to NEMA to propose a means -- a simplified --

18 the way it was described to me is there's a simple

19 output over input test that they run that is not the

20 DOE test procedure but that would allow comparison

21 between different motor efficiencies.

22 MR. WHITWELL: And which type of motors is
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1 that for?

2 MR. RIVEST: That's for the air over.

3 MR. WHITWELL: (Off microphone.)

4 MS. ARMSTRONG: No, TEVs are separate.

5 MR. RIVEST: Totally Enclosed Air Over --

6 TEAO. Or they can be open and air over.

7 MS. MEYERS: So, Mike, this is Karen. Again,

8 would you repeat -- so, you said you could not rate

9 together --

10 MR. RIVEST: There is no test procedure for

11 air over motors, so it wouldn't be possible to apply

12 any scaling between an air over motor and a

13 conventional induction motor or an ECM. There is no --

14 so, it would not be possible to group them into the

15 same basic model definition, to extend the rating of

16 your base model to the whole group, but what you could

17 do is create a grouping of products that all have air

18 over motors, qualify that group using, you know, your

19 base model, and then extend your rating so long as the

20 relative efficiency of those motors as they get bigger,

21 you know, follows the trend.

22 And that's what -- what needs to be defined
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1 is what that test procedure is, because it's not a DOE

2 test procedure.

3 MS. BARHYDT: (Off microphone.)

4 MR. RIVEST: The second bullet?

5 (Off microphone discussion.)

6 MR. RIVEST: That wording's good.

7 MS. HOOTMAN: This is Jill from Trane. So,

8 Mike, if we have an ECM and that is just a little bit,

9 I think, kind of filling in what Bob was saying, if you

10 have an ECM motor and it's a fractional and it doesn't

11 have a DOE test procedure, and it's now on our current

12 --

13 MR. RIVEST: It has, from the data I saw; ECM

14 motors have ratings, so they must be rated according to

15 a test procedure.

16 MS. HOOTMAN: I'm trying to find an example

17 though that I can think of like he's talking about,

18 because I think we have them. My problem I'm seeing is,

19 okay, you can't group them in the same basic model, so

20 let's say we had to separate them and now we have to

21 certify two basic models. I get what you're trying to

22 say there.
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1 MR. RIVEST: Right.

2 MS. HOOTMAN: But what if now, because it's

3 high static, you have no way of testing it in that

4 commercial HVAC unit down to where it needs to properly

5 be tested by the AHRI test procedure? You're now

6 taking a motor that was -- that is designed -- we're

7 certifying a separate motor, a separate basic model now

8 for our high static applications.

9 MR. RIVEST: I don't know that there's any

10 relationship between horsepower and air over.

11 MS. BARHYDT: There's no motor --

12 MR. RIVEST: You know, I don't know why you

13 couldn't do it.

14 MS. HOOTMAN: Because now we're saying, I've

15 got XYZ model. And it's split; let's say it's split

16 between these two different types. The base model,

17 which would be the static that was covered by AHRI, so

18 it would be the standard static, it can be -- now we

19 have to separate the two of those by what you're

20 saying, we have to separate these two by a basic model

21 and have a separate certification for the unit -- for

22 the unit.
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1 So, the low static or the standard static

2 models would have a test procedure, you know, to the

3 low static.

4 MR. RIVEST: I see.

5 MS. HOOTMAN: The high static models now that

6 are now being certified, because they're now in a

7 separate motor class and now they have to separate, I

8 really don't want them designed or run down to -- and

9 it is not efficient to run them down to that low static

10 now of the AHRI test procedure. So, what are we going

11 to do about that?

12 MS. BARHYDT: But is there a comparable -- is

13 there a motor with comparable characteristics that you

14 can put in that same basic --

15 MS. HOOTMAN: That we don't use.

16 MS. BARHYDT: But that you could use for

17 rating at the low static?

18 MS. HOOTMAN: I don't know. And that

19 literally would be -- I could not answer. I'm like

20 Bob, I could not answer that tomorrow. It would take

21 us a lot of study and probably have to go back in the

22 test room to even see because now we have a different
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1 rating. We don't have a rating to provide you with

2 that. So, 18 months may not be --

3 MR. RIVEST: I know a lot of presumed here.

4 It's --

5 MS. HOOTMAN: Right.

6 MR. RIVEST: A lot is presumed.

7 MR. BALLO: Would it be possible to amend the

8 test procedure for those high static applications to --

9 if you do have to test the high static motor you can

10 test it at a higher static?

11 MS. HOOTMAN: Amending the test procedure

12 means that test rooms now would have to be set up to do

13 that high static and it's a significant investment in

14 those test rooms and in some cases they're physically

15 limited right now and would not even be able to do it.

16 MR. RIVEST: You would also have to change

17 the minimum standards. I mean --

18 MS. HOOTMAN: Good point.

19 MS. MEYERS: I think Diane Jakobs is on the

20 webinar. I think she has a point. She's raised her

21 hand. She's trying to get unmuted.

22 MS. JAKOBS: Can you hear me?
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1 MR. EISNER: Yes, go ahead.

2 MS. JAKOBS: I just wanted to say that in the

3 last week I was looking up our spec sheets and what

4 equipment we have and it was the same point that I

5 brought up like in July, that the standard drive is a

6 56 frame, which is not rated, and the high static drive

7 is a 184-frame, which is rated, and so actually our

8 standard drives that were establishing the rating is a

9 lower efficiency motor in our estimate even though

10 there's no test standard. That's how we perceive it.

11 Then the high static motor, under high static

12 conditions, the high static motor uses more watts and

13 actually I was talking to one of the design engineers

14 and he was saying at higher -- these e-motors that are

15 supposed to be more efficient, that we don't really see

16 at our rating conditions any improvement, but at really

17 high statics, a different place on the motor curve,

18 there is actually more efficiency.

19 So, it's all a matter -- you can't just say

20 "a" test standard. It's very specific to where these

21 motors run efficiently. Maybe they run, maybe they

22 don't run, but where they're intended to be -- where
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1 they're designed to run is very different than other

2 places, other conditions.

3 So, to me, this is the same as what was

4 proposed in July. And to say that you can't group them

5 together, that's saying we're like back to the

6 beginning, that we would have to redesign equipment, so

7 I'm kind of discouraged.

8 MR. RIVEST: I'm sorry, this is Mike Rivest.

9 Were you under the impression that the scaling was

10 intended to -- to what, exactly? I mean, the intent of

11 the scaling was to ensure that motors at a higher

12 static were as efficient or were relatively the same

13 efficiency as those being used to certify. That's the

14 only point of the scaling.

15 If it results in having to --

16 MS. JAKOBS: Right.

17 MR. RIVEST: -- change designs, well, that

18 means they are using -- you're certifying with motors

19 that are more efficient than those to which you're

20 extending that certification to.

21 MS. JAKOBS: You said they can't be grouped

22 together that are not -- where did it say that? Motors
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1 - - oh, shoot.

2 MR. WHITWELL: Yeah, I think she's describing

3 the same situation that I was trying to describe --

4 MS. JAKOBS: Yes.

5 MR. WHITWELL: -- where you have a general

6 purpose motor that's used for high static and a 48 or

7 56 frame motor that's your standard, and if you look at

8 the data from the manufacturer that we have for the

9 standard motor and scale it per the example that we had

10 for general purpose motors, the general purpose motor

11 would be -- would meet the requirements.

12 The issue is, now, I think she has the same

13 issue that I have, I don't know whether our 48 and 50

14 frame motors --

15 MR. RIVEST: So, you understand, for me,

16 those frames mean nothing, right, to me. I mean, the

17 frames are --

18 MR. WHITWELL: They're not general purpose.

19 They are definite purpose motors. Forty-eight and 50

20 frame --

21 MR. RIVEST: They're not

22 MR. WHITWELL: -- are not included in the
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1 general purpose motor definition.

2 MS. JAKOBS: But when you -- the third bullet

3 where you say that they can't be --

4 MR. RIVEST: But they can be tested according

5 to the DOE test procedure.

6 MS. JAKOBS: -- certifications, that means we

7 can't put them together, so --

8 MR. RIVEST: Where are you reading that?

9 MS. JAKOBS: Even though we're rating with a

10 lower efficiency motor, that bullet says we can't group

11 it with a more efficient motor.

12 MR. RIVEST: This is not about -- did we get

13 rid of the covered? If it can be tested with the DOE

14 test procedure, then it can be grouped and the scaling

15 applied.

16 MR. WHITWELL: Yeah, so --

17 MR. RIVEST: If it cannot be tested, and as

18 far as we know, that's only the air over motors, then

19 it cannot be grouped because we couldn't make any

20 determination as to its relative efficiency with the

21 other motors in that grouping.

22 MS. JAKOBS: I guess not too many of us know
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1 that much about motors, but what I understand, if the

2 housing has holes in it and there's air blowing over

3 it, it's going to cool the -- it's going to cool the

4 windings and it's going to affect the efficiency of the

5 motor. And I think that's what we're using here. I

6 don't know if they're rated with the air over test

7 procedure, but I think that we are blowing air over the

8 windings, which affects the efficiency of the motor.

9 MR. RIVEST: So, these are terms of art. I

10 mean, the motor people have engaged you. I had

11 conversations with them. They told me there is no test

12 procedure for air over motors, there is no comparison

13 that can be made between air over motor efficiency and

14 the efficiency of induction motors or ECMs.

15 MS. JAKOBS: But when we're testing the unit

16 in our unit --

17 MR. RIVEST: I understand there's air

18 flowing, but that doesn't make all those motors air

19 over motors. They could be general purpose motors that

20 happen to have air movement around them, but the

21 difference is these air over motors will burn if

22 there's no air over them.
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1 MR. WHITWELL: Or definite purpose motors --

2 or definite purpose motors. They could be tested --

3 hopefully the data I have is without air over.

4 MR. RIVEST: Well, definite purpose doesn't

5 mean that it is air over, right? It means it doesn't

6 have the same torque.

7 MS. MEYERS: I think in previous discussions

8 we were all using the term or understanding the term

9 air over to be descriptive, not a product definition,

10 so that's kind of a new twist that you've thrown in --

11 you threw that in this morning and I did a --

12 MR. RIVEST: What does it change in what

13 we're trying to accomplish?

14 MS. MEYERS: It's what Diane was describing.

15 I mean -- it's, you know --

16 MR. RIVEST: What Diane was describing is

17 what - - I don't -- I didn't see a problem in what she

18 was describing. She can rate her motors. You know,

19 there is an efficiency rating for her motors.

20 MS. JAKOBS: There's not one for the 58

21 frame, the one that we use --

22 MR. RIVEST: Well how did you make the
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1 assertion that it was -- the general purpose was more

2 efficient then?

3 MS. JAKOBS: Because they're NEMA motors and

4 I mean, I was just talking to the engineer. I don't

5 know if it's documented as more efficient. In his

6 experience of working with them, he's in our equipment,

7 that they're more efficient, but what you're talking

8 about would have to have a specific test run on it and

9 be documented, right? It can't just be, we feel like

10 this one's better than that one or -- we're trying to

11 get a certain efficiency and we tried this one and it

12 worked and the other one didn't work, but you're

13 specifying classifications on motors that right now we

14 don't have documentation for. So, that's why we're

15 all confused because we don't know where we stand.

16 But last week I was pretty happy that we had

17 tested with the lease efficient motor --

18 MR. RIVEST: If you're able to make those

19 statements, that means that you saw efficiency ratings,

20 which means that they can be tested, so you don't have

21 a problem. I saw test --

22 MS. JAKOBS: I talked to a guy.
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1 MR. RIVEST: I saw manufacturers submittal

2 data where under the efficiency field I had "XX," which

3 no determination could be made because there is no

4 efficiency rating. So, if I have a motor whose

5 efficiency is "XX," then you're right, it's confusing.

6 I don't know what that is.

7 But one can't make the claim that it's an

8 efficient motor. There's a motor being used whose

9 efficiency we don't know, and we're trying to certify

10 the product with an XX motor.

11 MS. JAKOBS: But if you certify -- well, if

12 you certify it with one that's not regulated, you

13 should be able to apply a regulated motor as part of

14 that grouping. Do you think the unregulated ones are

15 more efficient than the regulated motors?

16 MR. RIVEST: The answer is: I don't know. I

17 could presume that an air over motor is less efficient,

18 and if you were to certify using an air over motor and

19 wanted to group general purpose motors with those, that

20 might be okay, but I don't know because the efficiency

21 says XX.

22 MR. AMRANE: This is Karim with AHRI.
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1 MR. RIVEST: And I didn't see anyone

2 certifying with air overs and then using ECMs in the

3 same group.

4 MR. AMRANE: But let me ask you a question,

5 this is Karim with AHRI. Now, for those motors that

6 are not rated today but that can be rated through the

7 DOE test procedure, whose responsibility is it going to

8 be to rate the motors? It's going to be the motor

9 manufacturer's responsibility? If they don't have the

10 ratings today to start rating those motors? Who's

11 going to force them to do that?

12 MS. JAKOBS: I know when I looked at the

13 motor drawings, the -- I think it was 128 frame from

14 the manufacturer, it had an efficiency on the drawing,

15 but the lower horsepower motor didn't. But it was a

16 standard drive, so it was tested because we tested it

17 in our unit.

18 MR. WHITWELL: Bob Whitwell -- go ahead.

19 MS. HOOTMAN: Go ahead -- I would say, Diane,

20 I would agree. I looked up a 56 frame motor and

21 definite purpose, and it shows no rating, from a motor

22 manufacturer that is rather predominant in the United
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1 States that I think we all use. MS.

2 JAKOBS: So, there's no rating on the name plates.

3 MS. HOOTMAN: Because, again, it's definite

4 purpose. I think what they're going to come back to us

5 and say is, you all use them in all different definite

6 purposes. We will test them in a general purpose

7 application, but your definite purpose application is

8 different. So, Mr. HVAC Manufacturer versus Mr.

9 Whatever Manufacturer, I can't tell you what your

10 efficiency is.

11 MR. WHITWELL: Yes, so -- this is Bob

12 Whitwell from Carrier. So, I think, you know,

13 basically we've got some work to do to understand where

14 we are, so Ashley, can we get a copy of what you had up

15 there and I would suggest that in that statement where

16 you -- that one bullet, wherever it went, that talks

17 about the test procedure, can you put in there that CSA

18 and the IEEE test procedure so that we have that, so

19 that we can go back to our motor manufacturers and see

20 if that's what they use?

21 Because I know that I'm quite sure, because

22 we have run some of these motors on dynos in our lab,
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1 they - - some of the data, anyway, is without air over,

2 but I don't know if it's run for the DOE test

3 procedure.

4 MS. ARMSTRONG: Sure. We can send it out. I

5 mean, I think you guys -- you know, one thing to

6 consider here is that the Department's been given a

7 consensus proposal. It's public, people know about it.

8 The motors you're largely talking about are part of

9 that. To say that they came up with levels without

10 knowing the efficiency of their units to negotiate --

11 they know what they are, they are tested for the DOE

12 test procedure, that's what they recommended as part of

13 this whole proposal. That's not to say all of them

14 are, but have those discussions because hopefully they

15 can provide some clarity, at least that's what was

16 provided to us.

17 MS. JAKOBS: So, there's going to be

18 representatives on Wednesday who will address this

19 group, right?

20 MS. BARHYDT: Yeah, NEMA had said that they

21 will have somebody here starting at 3:00.

22 MS. JAKOBS: So, will they be able to answer
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1 this question, you think?

2 MR. JOHNSON: That's really bad timing,

3 Laura.

4 MS. BARHYDT: I realize that, but that's what

5 they said they were available for.

6 MR. JOHNSON: I thought they were going to

7 shoot for Wednesday morning.

8 MS. BARHYDT: I don't know when they're

9 providing the information, but they said that they

10 would show up here in person to answer questions

11 starting at 3:00.

12 MR. JOHNSON: Well, if we could get a copy of

13 this as soon as possible, like Bob said, we have some

14 work to do. We've got to go back.

15 MS. ARMSTRONG: That's why I wanted to show -

16 -

17 MS. JAKOBS: We're actually their customers.

18 I don't know that they tell us everything.

19 MS. ARMSTRONG: And we're the Department. I

20 don't know that they tell us anything either.

21 MS. JAKOBS: You might think they work for

22 us, but --
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1 MS. MEYERS: What they came up with --

2 MS. JAKOBS: Our high static drive, the one I

3 looked at, the nameplate has an efficiency on it and it

4 was actually on Mike's spreadsheet as nominal

5 efficiency, it was 89.5 percent for the one I looked

6 at. So, it seems like you would be happy if I used

7 that one. But, okay.

8 MR. EISNER: Other questions or comments on

9 this section before Ashley leaves? Okay.

10 MS. MEYERS: This is Karen with Rheem. I

11 don't -- you know, until we see this NEMA presentation

12 and such, I don't think that my company will be in a

13 position to vote on this issue, which I know was your

14 desire, because what they have come up with that is --

15 may have some significant effect on how we group and

16 rate our products, so until we understand that, I don't

17 think we can vote this -- I know I cannot vote this

18 week because I'm going to have to listen to that and

19 then take it back and have a lot of dialogue with our

20 suppliers and when they understand all of this that

21 we're going through, it could even change some of their

22 positions.
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1 MR. EISNER: Is there anything else? Okay,

2 shall we get back to the three breakout groups?

3 (No response.)

4 MR. EISNER: Okay, who wants to report first?

5 Okay, who wants to go second?

6 Boilers, do you want to start?

7 MR. MYERS: The boiler-water heater group

8 basically came to an impasse, unable to resolve the

9 issues. However, there is an opportunity here.

10 Probably 90 percent of the issues are resolvable if it

11 were not for the fact that DOE feels obliged to present

12 the efficiencies in their chart. We found no

13 opportunities for agreement universally as long as the

14 status quo in terms of where people get their

15 efficiency information goes from where it is today to

16 the DOE website.

17 MS. BARHYDT: So, just to be clear, the

18 reason for the impasse is that DOE publishes the

19 information provided to it by manufacturers?

20 MR. MYERS: That's correct. Not that it's

21 provided, but that it's published. And I wasn't

22 nominated as the spokesperson, so if anyone else has a
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1 different take on it, feel free.

2 MR. EISNER: Anybody else?

3 MS. BARHYDT: That information is provided as

4 a manufacturer self-certification, so I guess I'm

5 missing the connection to verification testing. How is

6 that a verification testing issue?

7 MS. MEYERS: So, this is Karen with Rheem.

8 I'll speak a little bit on this because I was on one of

9 the opposite sides. The DOE website is going to show

10 the certified rating of all those products and it is my

11 company's position that if you're going to share the

12 certified ratings, then there also should be similar

13 verification procedures for those certified ratings

14 because if one rating is being held to a much higher

15 standard, it is not, in our opinion, fair for it to be

16 viewed equally on the website as another manufacturer's

17 rating who has not gone through the verification

18 processes that my rating has gone through.

19 So, it does become an issue because you're

20 showing on the website they all look comparable and

21 equal and in fact they're not in the marketplace

22 because one may be verified through a process A,
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1 another one may be verified through a process B, and

2 one may not be verified at all. And so, but they

3 appear equal on the website, and to us that's an unfair

4 advantage to some of those other companies.

5 MR. EISNER: Let me ask a question, if I

6 could, while Laura is thinking. I'm not sure I

7 understand all this, but would it be the same if the

8 chart or whatever that was on DoE's website said

9 "certified rating" or whatever we call it, and then it

10 said, for yours, this has been verified in accordance

11 with the following testing procedures as being at this

12 level, this one has never been verified? Wouldn't that

13 help you?

14 MS. MEYERS: If -- would that make a

15 difference to the Department of Defense who's looking

16 at the ratings on the DOE website on whether to make a

17 purchase decision? Would that make a -- you know, does

18 the general accounting office, if they're going to

19 procure equipment for a federal building, is it going

20 to make a difference to them?

21 So, those are some of the nuances that I

22 worry about, you know, that this is suddenly becoming a
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1 marketing purchasing tool in the marketplace, maybe not

2 today, but 10 years down the road, 20 years down the

3 road, we're making some policy decisions, I think, that

4 can have a great impact, that can greatly affect the

5 marketplace based upon this website and, you know, how

6 different people are certifying and, well, we're

7 certifying all the same, apparently, but --

8 MR. EISNER: Right now you're held to a

9 higher standard. Other are not. Are they selling

10 their product more easily than you are right now? Is

11 DOE and some of these other Departments, are they

12 buying the one that is not subject to the higher

13 testing standard than you are?

14 MS. MEYERS: So, the verification is

15 something new. Before, if you were in a verification

16 program, you were set apart. Now a verification

17 program will become, I guess, mandated, so now I think

18 it brings a different dynamic into the equation.

19 So, to me, if they're all certified the same,

20 they should be verified the same so that -- and if it's

21 going on this website and you're publishing ratings and

22 this rating, you know, they need to have similar
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1 characteristics or be comparable to each other.

2 MR. SACHS: Karen, this is Harvey, and I

3 appreciate that. I think you've actually touched on

4 two separate issues. One issue is new to this

5 discussion, I think, and that was, would the Department

6 of Defense or GSA care whether it was labeled as AHRI -

7 - certified and verified versus just being listed by

8 DoE? And there is, of course, even though it has some

9 controversy, precedent now that's pretty well

10 established in -- not just in the preferences for

11 Energy Star products and FEMP, but as perhaps a more

12 useful example, the requirements for federal

13 construction to move toward or utilize some green

14 building standard.

15 So, those are voluntary programs, but which

16 are favored in federal regulation for major purchases.

17 And I think that's part of the response to

18 this policy question you raised about would this matter

19 to major purchasers like the federal government, and

20 the answer is, it could. This is something that the

21 agencies have been instructed initially by executive

22 order, as I recall, and I think it's also in
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1 legislation now.

2 The second point you've raised is, my product

3 is AHRI certified and verified, and that has a bundle

4 of features to it, and for the last several days, an

5 image has been floating around occasionally in my mind

6 of two blue and white labels that sort of merge into

7 each other back and forth, and one of them is the AHRI

8 certified label, and the other is the Intel Inside

9 label. Both have the goal of using -- as I see it, and

10 I'm not inside AHRI or Intel, as I see it, the goal of

11 establishing a confidence in the consumer of the value

12 of a brand. It's just like Green Giant peas versus A&P

13 peas. And I'm having a little trouble understanding

14 why it would not be satisfactory, which was suggested

15 earlier, that the origin of the -- call it veracity of

16 a certified value listed in the DOE directory might not

17 be adequate to deal with that concern. It immediately

18 tells federal purchasers, this is the preferred

19 product, if that's what the executive order says.

20 That's just --

21 MS. MEYERS: It's a great thought. I guess

22 I'm just fundamentally against taxpayer dollars being
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1 used to fund a government website to be used as a

2 marketing tool. But, I mean, it's something that we

3 could look at, but I just don't think that's, you know,

4 the right use of our time and money.

5 MR. BALLO: But it's not a marketing tool. I

6 mean, once you report the numbers to DoE, whatever you

7 certify at, those numbers are going to be publically

8 available and I don't think anything changes once

9 there's some sort of verification system in place

10 because it's not permissible for manufacturers to

11 actually claim anything about the -- about their

12 certification as an endorsement of the product. It's

13 just a number they supply to DoE. You can't say, "it's

14 DOE certified", as I understand it. That's -- that

15 would be a violation of the Federal Trade Act --

16 Federal Trade Commission's statute. It's a misleading

17 claim.

18 MR. DOPPEL: Paul Doppel with Mitsubishi.

19 But, again, this becomes a de facto certification list

20 because if a manufacturer puts a number on that list,

21 you just made the assumption that it was certified and

22 everyone's going to make that assumption that if it's
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1 on that list, it's certified.

2 MR. BALLO: It has been certified. The

3 manufacturer has submitted a statement swearing that

4 that is the number to the Department, that's --

5 MR. DOPPEL: But it's not verified.

6 MR. BALLO: But nothing at the website

7 indicates that the number has been verified.

8 MR. DOPPEL: Anything that was done by AHRI

9 has been verified. So, it's not the same.

10 MR. BALLO: Right.

11 MR. DOPPEL: It's not the same, but it's

12 being made the same, that's what she's saying, it's

13 being made the same. It's not equal.

14 MR. STEPHENS: Phillip Stephens, HTP. One of

15 the thoughts we did have during our breakout session

16 was a different website for self-certified products

17 versus the third-party certified products, both on the

18 DoE.

19 MR. BALLO: And I'm not opposed to that

20 because I can use Control-C and Control-V just as well

21 as anybody, but is that fair to the members who are not

22 in RE and who have, on their own, developed a very good
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1 verification program? I don't know.

2 MR. FERRIOL: This is Brian with UL. In our

3 breakout session, this issue, the DOE website and the

4 ratings showing on the website was a large topic of

5 discussion. Laura, is this a point that can be debated

6 and discussed, or is this a point where you must show

7 the ratings on the website?

8 MS. BARHYDT: I think at this point, we are

9 at a place where we are going to have to show the

10 ratings on the website.

11 MR. EISNER: Because of FOIA.

12 MS. BARHYDT: Because of FOIA and we also

13 were threatened with a lawsuit at one point, so between

14 the two of them, I think it's a certainty that we will

15 be publishing the information on the website.

16 MR. EISNER: Is there --

17 MS. HOOTMAN: Who -- I wonder.

18 MR. EISNER: Could this group try to draft

19 language that went on the website that would satisfy

20 those who are concerned with the website implications

21 right now?

22 MS. MEYERS: Neil, I think the issue becomes
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1 that the verification -- we, at least in our group,

2 could not come up with common verification procedures,

3 so if all products have to go -- if we say all products

4 have to go through some type of third-party

5 verification process and the criteria for that

6 verification process is the same, whether it's AHRI,

7 whether it's a manufacturer self- certification,

8 whether it's UL, whatever, that's different, but we

9 couldn't get anywhere close to coming up with identical

10 criteria.

11 You know, some people view the AHRI program

12 as a Cadillac program. I don't actually view it like

13 that at all. I view it as the industry minimum of what

14 is required to make -- to keep the industry honest

15 after, you know, 50 years of experience, so we're not

16 spending all this extra money on extra certification

17 when it's not really needed. None of it says, you

18 know, people who have a PNL meter couldn't just spend

19 all this extra money if it's not really needed.

20 Now, there are some nuances. I understand

21 that we all have some product nuances that we have to

22 kind of go through, but I don't think it's fair for
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1 somebody's verification process to be much less

2 stringent than mine and they are shown equally and are

3 viewed equally on the DOE government website as being

4 the same.

5 MS. BARHYDT: Okay, so, just as a sort of

6 fundamental starting point, if we did not agree to some

7 sort of verification for everyone, the status quo is

8 going to be that there is no requirement for anyone to

9 have verification and what DOE puts on its website are

10 the ratings that are certified to the Department by the

11 manufacturer. And it's irrespective of whether they've

12 been verified or not by anyone at all. That is the DOE

13 certification to the -- that is the certification by

14 the manufacturer to DOE and is a listing of -- this is

15 what manufacturers told us, and the reality is that

16 you're participating in a program and that is not

17 reflected at all. It is, this is a list of what we

18 were given.

19 If we have some kind of a verification

20 program process, there would be some possibility to

21 say, this manufacturer certified this as part of this

22 program or that program or the other program because
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1 one of the things we talked about was if we did this,

2 manufacturers would have to tell DOE whose program they

3 were participating in, so it would be fairly

4 straightforward for us to just provide that additional

5 information.

6 And then people could make whatever

7 assumptions they wanted to about the meaning of those

8 different programs and whether they attach value and

9 significance to one program over another. But the base

10 concept is, people certify values to us and all we're

11 doing is we're passing along the information of, this

12 is what they told us and you're not getting any extra

13 credit right now if there is no verification from non14 participants.

15 So, I guess from my perspective, isn't it

16 better to have them subject to something than nothing?

17 So, that was one of the points I wanted to make. The

18 other one is that, I guess I'm viewing this in a

19 fundamentally different way than you are. You are

20 looking at it as, I go through this verification

21 program and I am AHRI certified and I have an AHRI seal

22 of approval and I have this meaning attached to being a
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1 participant in this program.

2 And the way I'm looking at what we're talking

3 about for DOE is much more like certification. All

4 manufacturers are required to do some initial testing

5 as a baseline to be able to certify that their products

6 meet this standard, and we're calling it verification

7 testing. You could call it anything, as far as I'm

8 concerned, you could call it "Recurrent Certification

9 Testing". I'm not seeing it as a program of getting

10 some seal of approval or some higher-level endorsement

11 like that. To me it's a -- this is just an extension

12 of the testing you already do for certification

13 testing, it's just a periodic check- in to make sure

14 that those certifications are still consistent.

15 And I guess fundamentally it sounds to me

16 like something different. And I think you see them as

17 that they should be the same thing, and to me, they

18 seem to be different things.

19 MR. DOPPEL: Paul Doppel with Mitsubishi. On

20 the residential side, how is that working? Because, I

21 mean, you would think that if there's a, I mean, that's

22 well-established, that certification program, that
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1 process, so, I mean, how is -- is DOE going to try to

2 do something similar with the commercial as they are

3 with the residential?

4 MS. BARHYDT: I'm not even sure what you're

5 asking, Paul.

6 MR. DOPPEL: Okay, there are a lot of

7 residential products that are out there now and

8 everybody has to certify. There's a process where AHRI

9 daily submits data, okay. Who is not -- what happens

10 to those who are not part of a voluntary program with

11 residential? That's what I'm saying. Okay, how is that

12 working? And then are you going to do something

13 similar with commercial? Or are you looking at

14 something totally different?

15 MS. BARHYDT: No, it would be similar. It's

16 just a dump of the data that we are given. These are

17 the values that manufacturers have certified to the

18 Department.

19 MR. DOPPEL: Okay, what about manufacturers

20 outside of AHRI? Are there other voluntary programs?

21 I know there's --

22 MS. BARHYDT: I have no idea if there are
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1 other voluntary --

2 MS. HOOTMAN: There's no verification --

3 MS. BARHYDT: -- programs. But all

4 manufacturers are required to certify, and they do, and

5 we get data from many manufacturers who are not part of

6 AHRI, and all of that data is on our website. But I

7 don't think I'm answering your question.

8 MR. EISNER: Is there any verification

9 testing for residential products.

10 MS. BARHYDT: So, DOE does assessment

11 testing, same as we do for commercial, but I don't know

12 if that's what you're asking either.

13 MR. JOHNSON: Well, so, the only way those

14 non- AHRI members get checked is through your

15 assessment testing then.

16 MS. BARHYDT: And if they're Energy Star,

17 then maybe they get tested as part of Energy Star,

18 certainly there are consumers groups that also do

19 testing and they may be getting checked that way. But,

20 yeah, AHRI is the biggest verification program that I'm

21 aware of.

22 MR. AMRANE: I guess I'm going to try to
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1 answer your questions. This is Karim with AHRI. I

2 think it's the perception, and, you know, having a DOE

3 verified program without really the stringency that

4 exists today within the AHRI program that may give the

5 impression that everybody would be tested to the same

6 requirement would not be the case. And that's the

7 concern here.

8 MS. BARHYDT: Generally speaking, I don't

9 know that the general public is aware of what DOE's

10 testing requirements are to certify compliance. They

11 probably assume everything is tested, they probably

12 have never imagined what an ARM or an AEDM is. They

13 probably just assume that everything is tested and all

14 of those numbers come from real test data. And that's

15 not the fact.

16 We all know that there are ways that the

17 regulations permit you to make estimates.

18 At the end of the day, all that list of

19 numbers are is the representations made to the

20 government by the manufacturer, and if we have some

21 requirement to do continual testing on an ongoing basis

22 of a model instead of just at the very, very beginning
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1 before you introduce it into commerce, I don't see that

2 as a radical shift from the perspective of people going

3 to our website. It's not going to be a "this is DOE

4 certified", it's not going to say, "this is DOE

5 verified", it's just an ongoing testing requirement

6 that is as invisible to the general public as the

7 certification testing.

8 MR. DOPPEL: Paul Doppel with Mitsubishi.

9 But there is a huge scale difference because on the

10 residential market, you're talking maybe a couple

11 thousand dollars for a system on a decision, you know,

12 if a homeowner makes a decision on whether to use AHRI

13 or someone else.

14 But, on the commercial side, you could be

15 talking millions of dollars on one decision, so that is

16 a significant influence in the marketplace, and so I

17 think a different set of criteria need be in place for

18 this arena because it can have a significant impact.

19 MR. EISNER: Couldn't some make the argument

20 that $2000 for the individual is much more of an impact

21 than millions of dollars for a company?

22 MR. DOPPEL: I don't think so. It's --
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1 MS. MEYERS: This is Karen with Rheem. And,

2 you know, I could argue the point that people outside

3 this industry might put more value on being an Energy

4 Star partner versus being AHRI certified because Energy

5 Star is an EPA, government-run program, where really us

6 in the industry know that AHRI certified has great --

7 you know, is a much stronger program.

8 So, that's kind of -- you know, when you get

9 to using, you know, government-type websites and it

10 will, in fact, as Paul said, become a de facto

11 certification database once it goes on that website,

12 and all products will be viewed as equal.

13 I don't know what the answer is yet, but this

14 is where I'm -- you know, I don't have an answer, wish

15 I did, because we didn't get very far in our breakout

16 session because we had, you know, three different

17 opposing views and we couldn't really find any way to

18 even get close to a step in the middle, but, you know,

19 we're all committed to continue to work on it, but it

20 is a very complicated issue.

21 MR. DOPPEL: For the commercial HVAC -- this

22 is Paul Doppel -- what we came to was we felt that
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1 anyone who was going to have their products listed on

2 the DOE website needed to be in a DAVP. That's theirs.

3 MR. BAUMAN: This is Jeff Bauman from

4 National. I think one of the things that we're -- when

5 you talk about DOE certified, it's manufacturer

6 certified, either you're manufacturer certified or

7 you're third-party certified by somebody. I still

8 think --

9 MS. BARHYDT: So, I'm going to cut you off

10 right there real quick. You are always manufacturer

11 certified.

12 MR. BAUMAN: Right.

13 MS. BARHYDT: It may be submitted by a third14 party, but you are always manufacturer certified.

15 MR. BAUMAN: Okay, but currently if you're in

16 an AHRI program, AHRI is certifying --

17 MS. BARHYDT: They're submitting.

18 MR. AMRANE: (Off microphone.)

19 MR. BAUMAN: Okay, but for you -- for AHRI's

20 separate listing, you have an AHRI certified listing

21 also separate from DOE. Okay. And, again, I don't

22 know the answer, but I've asked a couple people about -
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1 - and to me the issue becomes the -- as I referred to

2 before -- the shopping list of numbers and the concern

3 about comparing numbers that may have not been the same

4 level behind them.

5 I still think that there's a potential for

6 the DOE list to be a list of all manufacturers and

7 instead of a number next to that, necessarily, it says,

8 okay, this was certified and under what program. Was

9 it UL's program? Was it AHRI's program? Was it

10 manufacturer certified? And then somebody clicking on

11 that to go to a list of, okay, now I can compare all

12 the AHRI certified that were under the same program or

13 all the UL certified or all the manufacturer certified,

14 so now you're looking at apples to apples as far as how

15 people were certified.

16 If they want to go look at one that was

17 manufacturer certified versus under an AHRI program,

18 however the terminology comes, I think you can still

19 get to that, but I think that gives that segregation

20 between any meaningfulness in a separate program

21 outside of just the manufacturer program. It adds a

22 little bit of complication, but it seems like something
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1 along those lines is the only way to get to both

2 worlds.

3 MR. EISNER: If DOE were to conclude legally

4 that it had no authority, that it would be violating

5 things like the Regulatory Flexibility Act, to impose a

6 verification program meeting the standards of something

7 like -- a group like AHRI, would that mean many of you

8 in the room would then oppose this whole program? This

9 whole rulemaking that we've been working on?

10 MS. DANE: Say that again.

11 MR. EISNER: Assuming that DOE did a legal

12 analysis and concluded that it would be a violation of

13 the Regulatory Flexibility Act, that it could not

14 justify imposing standards as high as AHRI standards

15 because they didn't believe they were necessary under

16 the statute and therefore couldn't require AHRI-type

17 compliance, would many of you therefore be opposed to

18 the whole rulemaking proposal that we're drafting?

19 So, if DoE, by statute, was required to set

20 some standards for testing, but could not set

21 verification standards as AHRI, you would object to

22 this process even though DOE has to issue some rule?
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1 MR. AMRANE: I guess I will go first. It's

2 going to depend on the details of what DOE could do.

3 And, again, you're saying that, you know, not the AHRI

4 level, and we're not asking for the AHRI level, we're

5 asking for something that's comparable to the AHRI, so

6 --

7 MR. EISNER: That's what I'm saying, they

8 can't do --

9 MR. AMRANE: Then AHRI will not support.

10 MR. EISNER: And if DOE simply did away with

11 the verification program and did its own assessment

12 testing, with penalties attached to those who flunked

13 tests, you still would not support it?

14 MR. PETERSON: I think when you talk about

15 details, I mean, what type of testing? Is the testing

16 going to occur once every five years? I mean, exactly

17 what Karim said. I mean, how close to AHRI are we

18 talking about? Is it down here?

19 MR. EISNER: Again, you've got a system right

20 now where people aren't complying with AHRI standards,

21 so we're saying everything stays the same with the

22 proposal that we've already worked on except that DOE
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1 says, we don't have the authority or the ability to

2 write a verification part of the rule, but we will

3 continue to do our assessment testing at the same level

4 we've been doing it or to the extent that we have

5 budgetary resources, we'll go more or we'll go less.

6 But they don't have -- they don't add the

7 assessment portion to the rule. Just trying to

8 understand where we are right now on this issue.

9 MR. AMRANE: This is Karim with AHRI. I

10 think from an AHRI standpoint, we'll be better off

11 without having a DOE verification program than having a

12 watered down DOE verification program.

13 MR. EISNER: So, the rest of the rule will be

14 okay and DOE could continue its assessment program,

15 that would be acceptable?

16 MR. AMRANE: That's what's being done today.

17 It's fine. It can continue.

18 MR. EISNER: Well, it's more than the

19 assessment program or the verification program that

20 we've developed over the past few months. And that's

21 what I'm saying. Would what we've developed up until

22 this point be acceptable to everybody around the table
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1 if there were no verification program added at the end

2 of it?

3 MR. AMRANE: I think -- this is Karim -- I

4 think what we have agreed so far is the AEDM, I think

5 we support the AEDM. The basic model definition, I

6 think we support the basic model definition, and what

7 else did we agree to? The reporting? The reporting is

8 fine too. So, there, we have no problem with that, at

9 least with AHRI.

10 MR. KLEISS: Jeff Kleiss, Lochinvar. We do

11 support verification, but there is the problem of

12 posting something on the -- a website that could create

13 some confusion between the level of verification of the

14 product.

15 MR. EISNER: And I appreciate that and that's

16 why I asked earlier, if DOE believes it has a legal

17 requirement to post that information, is there a way

18 that we can all agree to describe the information on

19 the website so there will not be the confusion many of

20 you are concerned about?

21 Because if you can work out the language to

22 put on the website -- we're talking about sophisticated
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1 manufacturers, who it's been pointed out, are going to

2 be very careful about the way they spend $2 million,

3 versus $2,000 that the consumer is going to spend, that

4 sophisticated manufacturer who can make that kind of

5 distinction should be able to understand the right

6 language.

7 I'm not saying it's there now, but should be

8 able to understand what it is they're seeing on that

9 website and fully appreciate the difference between one

10 that is verified by one type of group and one that

11 might be verified by another type of group. So, can we

12 work on that kind of language or is there no path down

13 that road either?

14 MR. HON: This is Charlie Hon. What we --

15 what people are ignoring is the fact that this is still

16 going to be posted. If there is zero verification

17 programs, there is still going to be a website that has

18 every bit of the data posted.

19 So, de facto, it's in print. And it is

20 accessible by anyone who chooses to find it. So, are

21 you willing to accept that with no verification

22 program?
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1 MR. EISNER: So, any thoughts on how we

2 describe the information that's available on the

3 website?

4 MS. MEYERS: Don't put the data on the

5 website; don't put the writings on the website.

6 MR. EISNER: I'm asking you to make the

7 assumption -- I'm asking you to make the assumption,

8 which Laura has voiced, that DOE has determined it

9 doesn't have the legal authority to not put it on the

10 website. So, if that is true, if they're accurate in

11 their description of it, is there language that would

12 work, that would help, or at least be better than

13 having them simply post it as they're doing now?

14 MR. STARR: This is Louis Starr with NEEA.

15 Is a pass/fail for the ones that don't go through a

16 certified program, would that be an option? So, in

17 other words, if you go through a certification program

18 you get a number, if you don't go through one, you just

19 get pass/fail. I don't know if that's a good solution,

20 but --

21 MR. BALLO: The numbers are out there. The

22 numbers are -- cannot go away. They're FOIA-able and
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1 if the website was taken down, I mean, I think you

2 would see people just FOIAing DOE for the numbers and

3 making their own website, that would just be then

4 potentially out of date and misleading to consumers,

5 but if that's really what you would rather have --

6 MR. STARR: Well, I was just thinking the

7 advantage would be is that it prevents the marketing

8 aspect of things, but then you are actually getting

9 things tested so you really know if the numbers that

10 are being put up as certifications are actually -- do

11 they really meet those numbers, so you kind of would

12 get the best -- well, not the best, you would get

13 something.

14 MR. DOPPEL: Paul Doppel with Mitsubishi.

15 Having information in a column way to the right is

16 never going to be seen, but if there were two distinct

17 lists that list -- the first list would be products

18 that are covered by voluntary verification program, and

19 then the second list would be products that were not

20 part of a voluntary program.

21 MR. EISNER: That's an important point. Tim

22 has pointed out, and I'm sure you heard it, he can
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1 merge the two into one chart if he wants. But if

2 you're willing to accept that, I think Laura would

3 probably say DOE could accept it.

4 MR. MYERS: This is Frank Meyers. I had

5 proposed for the boiler and water heater group adjacent

6 to the efficiency, whatever the efficiency was for each

7 basic model, there would be a notation, obviously in

8 code, but the requirements for becoming -- would

9 establish a requirement for becoming a DOE -- I

10 apologize, I'm reading the wrong spot -- "Efficiency

11 claim provided and verified by DOE-recognized

12 verification program" for those that had done that, and

13 then for those that were not in a DOE-recognized

14 verification program, efficiency provided by

15 manufacturer, very clear, all of which would have

16 whatever the minimum requirement would be, we just

17 wouldn't talk about that, so it was crystal clear,

18 model by model, that the efficiency had been provided

19 by the manufacturer, and then for those that came

20 through a VICP program type, efficiency claim provided

21 and verified by DOE-recognized verification program.

22 But at least during our meeting, that was not
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1 deemed to be acceptable. There was a little bit more

2 acceptance of taking those two groups and separating

3 them into two websites where you had to look at them

4 separately, but that was not agreed to either.

5 MR. EISNER: Laura, two lists?

6 MS. BARHYDT: So, I guess what I'm struggling

7 with is that it sounds like there is then two levels of

8 DOE recognition of verification programs. There's the

9 people who are doing the minimum DOE approved

10 verification, and then there are the people who are

11 doing something more, and it's not clear to me how we

12 get to those two levels, and it's not clear to me how

13 we set what those two levels are.

14 MR. HON: This is Charlie Hon. I have a

15 question. We don't even know where those fall, because

16 we can we cannot compare at this time any approved

17 program to any proposal we have because we don't know

18 what the percentages are going to come out.

19 MS. BARHYDT: It's not the percentages that

20 I'm going to come out with; it's the percentages we are

21 going to come out with.

22 MR. DOPPEL: This is Paul Doppel with
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1 Mitsubishi. It just seems, you know, getting on the

2 DOE list is elevating whatever manufacturers to a

3 certain status and in order to do that if they're not a

4 part of a voluntary program already, then they should

5 submit third- party verification in order to get on the

6 list.

7 MS. BARHYDT: So the way you get on the DOE

8 list is you comply with the fundamental basic minimum

9 requirement to do a very small amount of certification

10 testing and submit your paperwork to DOE. I mean,

11 that's all it is. It's a list of people who have

12 complied with the minimum requirements to distribute

13 products in the United States. That's all it is.

14 MR. DOPPEL: But there's no third-party

15 verification.

16 MS. BARHYDT: Right now, no. Right now all

17 there is is a requirement for a manufacturer to conduct

18 two tests of a basic model and send in an Excel

19 spreadsheet that says here's my name, my model number,

20 and my efficiency.

21 MS. DANE: Mary from Traulsen. I think we

22 can get there if we work on the language. It seems to
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1 be -- I can speak for all of CRE, but we don't have a

2 problem with the way the website is worded now. You

3 know, we want to be careful because we want to leave

4 the certification piece as being the manufacturer

5 submitting the data. We don't want to go through a

6 third-party certifier to certify our data. You know,

7 we're happy to talk about a verification program

8 whether we have one or not, but we want to keep it

9 simple at the beginning because my understanding is, in

10 order to place it in commerce; it would have to meet

11 the minimum standard anyway. So, I'm confused on what

12 the issue is.

13 You know, whether the number's on there or

14 the number's not on there. I don't think it matters to

15 us. As I say, I can't speak for all of CRE, but I don't

16 want to derail -- we've come this far and spent all of

17 this time in this room, and I don't want to see it get

18 derailed over this.

19 MS. BARHYDT: So one other point about --

20 Paul was raising the issue of being on the list has

21 some meaning. It does have some meaning. If you're

22 not on the list, you're not supposed to be distributing
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1 in commerce in the United States. I mean, that's all

2 that list means.

3 If you're not on the list, you haven't met

4 even the most basic fundamental minimum requirements to

5 sell your product in the United States.

6 MR. SACHS: Laura, this is Harvey. I

7 generally think that AHRI is taking a fairly extreme

8 position about value. But on the other hand, that list

9 does say more than you are legal to sell that product

10 in the U.S., it explicitly says you have certified the

11 efficiency rating. Now, having established that point,

12 I want us all to step back for just a second and try to

13 remember that at the same time this is going on, for

14 some of these products is growing recognition that the

15 DOE standards are only one of a number of indicators

16 that are important to -- call it a sophisticated

17 purchaser, that the suite of feature as well as the

18 entire performance map are increasingly important.

19 So, this has symbolic value in the market,

20 but at the same time what we're doing here about

21 compliance is supplemented in the market by huge

22 efforts by the manufacturers, the designers they work
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1 with, to enrich the sales environment and the choice

2 environment with vastly more data than DOE can be

3 concerned with. So, I'm having a little bit of trouble

4 seeing this particular aspect of what single number is

5 on the list as being a life or death issue as we move

6 forward in the development of the industry of this

7 country.

8 I could be wrong.

9 MR. JOHNSON: Laura, Tom Johnson. It gives

10 them a credible entry into the marketplace at least for

11 a while, and with no verification. And, one of my

12 questions would be: how many and how fast can you do

13 challenge testing?

14 Because that's the only way to find out if

15 they're credible or not. I see DOE getting overwhelmed

16 with that.

17 MS. BARHYDT: AHRI also volunteered.

18 MR. SACHS: This is Harvey again and just one

19 other note on that. In the real world we inhabit, we

20 have certainly seen manufacturers entering the market

21 with innovative products that sometimes were certified.

22 I can think of one case where they were certified in a
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1 rather bogus manner and those companies did fail.

2 No matter what we do in this room, some

3 purchasers are going to get burned and it will tar the

4 reputation of the industry we all love. It's going to

5 happen and we can't make this totally failure proof and

6 we all worry about it. We can't make it perfect and

7 still keep commerce moving.

8 End of rant.

9 MR. JOHNSON: We have a credible program

10 today and we'd like to leave it that way. And we'd

11 rather just bring everybody else back up to that.

12 MR. WHITWELL: I think your comment is

13 specifically to commercial HVAC, right? I mean, it

14 could be different for other product categories, but

15 for commercial HVAC we want to have a level playing

16 field.

17 MS. DANE: Thanks Bob. I think we could

18 probably agree with that, because if you look at the

19 number of members who are certifying -- the number of

20 CRE people certifying through AHRI, there's only one

21 and the rest of us have a different plan that we'd like

22 to talk about.
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1 MR. WHITWELL: Right, yeah. For commercial

2 HVAC it's more like 90 percent or so are already in the

3 program, so --

4 MR. DOPPEL: This is Paul Doppel with

5 Mitsubishi. I think mostly HVAC folks would be along

6 the same lines as Bob and I, that programs should be

7 different between us and yours. Just like we're

8 different sides of the table.

9 MR. AMRANE: This is Karim with AHRI. The

10 CRE program is different at AHRI versus the HVAC

11 program. In fact, what was discussed in the CRE group

12 is more stringent than what the AHRI program has, so I

13 have no problem. You can become the Cadillac program.

14 MS. DANE: Mercedes.

15 MR. AMRANE: Mercedes.

16 MS. BARHYDT: So we have about 40 minutes

17 left. Would CRE like to talk about what you all talked

18 about?

19 MS. DANE: Basically, we had talked the fact

20 that we understand that probably no verification is not

21 the most optimum way to go. But we do agree that there

22 are different sizes of businesses and types of
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1 businesses within our industry. And that, I know,

2 there was a question asked about where you break off

3 small and large, medium manufacturing sizes. I think

4 when we talked about the different levels, one of the

5 things that was very important to us was to know how

6 you made up the basic model groups and if the testing

7 stayed into both a minimum and maximum amount of models

8 that could be tested by manufacturer, we could come to

9 a number.

10 I think the other thing we added on to that

11 was if we could stay closer to the minimum if there

12 were no failures. And then, if we went on and found

13 failures, that the numbers would increase for a certain

14 amount of time until established what that was and then

15 you would be allowed to move back down to the minimum,

16 but that would never be zero. Thereby, we would make

17 DOE happy and we would be happy also.

18 And I think those numbers that Karim was

19 talking about would be the maximum we would see, as a

20 one to two minimum, depending on the size and then two

21 to four, but before I agree to that I want to make sure

22 that it's, you know, the product categories and
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1 everything lines up there. But we did move on greater

2 than zero.

3 Secondly, then we talked about procurement

4 and we would say that the DOE should be doing the

5 choosing of them, but they can reserve the right to

6 have the third- party, if there's one involved, that

7 can designate that group to pick for them. And beyond

8 that I don't think we got much further.

9 MR. HON: We also discussed the fact we would

10 probably put in -- probably 50 percent additional for a

11 large company compared to a small company, because

12 there are some economies of scale that are involved

13 there. So the larger companies would have to test a

14 percentage more compared to base model and we believed

15 that was somewhat fair and equitable, because small

16 companies may only be producing a hundred of one type

17 or we may be producing a thousand of that same type.

18 MS. BARHYDT: It sounds like you all made

19 progress. Given that you all did make some progress,

20 would you all be interested in continuing to work

21 through the various questions, possibly tomorrow

22 morning to come up with a more fulsome proposal for
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1 CRE?

2 MS. DANE: Yes, I think we can do that.

3 MR. HON: Yes.

4 MS. BARHYDT: And I know we heard that there

5 was stalemate in the boiler-water heater, and HVAC's

6 talked a little about what you've talked about, but can

7 you all expand a little bit more about where you all

8 are? Jill?

9 MS. HOOTMAN: Jill Hootman from Trane. I

10 think what we said, first of all, a little bit of what

11 was back and forth there, that the overall majority of

12 commercial HVAC manufacturers, we feel that's 90

13 percent or greater, participate in a VICP. Therefore,

14 for commercial HVAC, the OEM should participate in a

15 DAVP and those programs have these requirements. And

16 it was those requirements that we had from the meeting

17 -- I mean, I can give this to you, but I won't go -- we

18 didn't change --

19 MS. BARHYDT: The ones we had --

20 MS. HOOTMAN: Right. I didn't change

21 anything about those or anything like it.

22 MS. BARHYDT: (Off microphone.)
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1 MS. HOOTMAN: Yeah. So I didn't change

2 anything about those. I think that was it, right guys?

3 MR. FLY: This is Mark Fly from AAON. A

4 couple things we talked about during that meeting was,

5 I think most of the people in that group were

6 uncomfortable with self-certification without some

7 independent oversight in selection and review of test

8 data. And then, we kind of got hung up on what to do

9 with whatever we want to call customs engineered-to10 order, one-offs, however we're going to define that

11 term --

12 MS. HOOTMAN: Yeah, we didn't come to any

13 agreement on that one.

14 MR. FLY: And how do you define that term to

15 avoid anyone being able to take advantage of it. But

16 there are people out there who build engineered-to17 order products, which probably make up a good part of

18 that ten percent of the market not covered by AHRI.

19 That build one at a time and engineered one at a time

20 and we came up with no solution to that, I think is a

21 fair assessment.

22 MR. HON: I have a question. I keep hearing
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1 people say 10 percent of the market. Is this 10

2 percent of the units sold or ten percent of the

3 manufacturers in the market?

4 MS. HOOTMAN: It would be more on the units

5 sold, but in all honestly, we know numbers through

6 AHRI, because of course, we're all reporting dollars

7 and things like that. I mean, these numbers come more

8 from -- in my career, I've done a lot of market

9 analysis and worked a lot with Wall Street and some of

10 those kinds of things, and what they estimate our

11 market to be, you know, within plus or minus ten

12 percent.

13 Yeah, it's more in the dollar revenue --

14 MR. HON: Dollar revenue --

15 MS. HOOTMAN: Yeah.

16 MR. HON: Okay, which has some direct

17 relationship to units.

18 MS. HOOTMAN: Right, right. And the amount

19 of manufacturers in that space are much, much smaller.

20 MS. BARHYDT: So do you all want to meet in

21 the morning to discuss how to deal with the small

22 custom?
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1 MS. HOOTMAN: We can.

2 MS. BARHYDT: And for the ones that aren't

3 built-to-order or custom, was there agreement in the

4 group to set the levels at the AHRI levels? The

5 testing rates?

6 UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: Yes.

7 MS. HOOTMAN: Yes

8 MS. BARHYDT: Okay, so as long as it's built

9 to stock the inventory products there was agreement on

10 those levels.

11 MR. FLY: This is Mark Fly with AAON. I

12 think we agreed to no less than 20 percent of basic

13 model groups if we adopt the basic models groups as

14 defined by AHRI.

15 MS. BARHYDT: By AHRI. Okay.

16 MR. FERRIOL: This is Brian with UL. Just a

17 point of clarification. I think in this -- I thought

18 one of the product categories that we were discussing

19 at AHRI had a 30 percent selection rate, correct? And

20 we were saying we were going to set 20 percent as a

21 starting point.

22 MR. WHITWELL: Yes, today some product
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1 segments are at 30, most are at 20.

2 MR. FERRIOL: So in other words, Brian with

3 AH -- UL, in other words --

4 Sorry. I've worked there, too. I think --

5 just a clarification point. When we say it's not

6 entirely true to say set the requirements at the same

7 levels as AHRI. That was my point.

8 MR. MYERS: This is Frank Myers, PVI.

9 Something I might toss out on the table for the working

10 groups that might be struggling with build-to-order,

11 engineered-to- order, another phrase was brought up in

12 our group. We didn't settle on anything other than we

13 felt like that was a variable that we could discuss,

14 was commissioned versus non-commissioned.

15 Just another one to put in the idea pool to

16 think about it it's too difficult to do build-to-order

17 or engineered-to-order.

18 MS. BARHYDT: Okay, so HVAC will start out

19 the morning talking about how to deal with some of the

20 products you haven't reached agreement on.

21 Okay, what do the boiler-water heater folks

22 want to do?
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1 (Off microphone discussion.)

2 MS. HOOTMAN: So maybe if you all meet over

3 some alcohol tonight things might get a little better.

4 MR. KLEISS: Jeff Kleiss, Lochinvar. One of

5 the suggestions that was made in the back room was that

6 we each write out our own proposals and bring them in.

7 MS. BARHYDT: So if you all are amenable to

8 that proposal, do you all want to start out the morning

9 in a small group just working through your various

10 proposals?

11 MR. EISNER: If you're going to do something

12 like that based on your discussions, could you come up

13 with a common list and then have whatever added or

14 subtractions different ones want or do you want to each

15 come in with a completely separate sheet of paper?

16 MR. SACHS: Do you mean a common list for

17 boilers, a common list for --

18 MR. EISNER: No, I thought I heard Jeff say -

19 -

20 MR. SACHS: Okay.

21 MR. EISNER: -- that each of them wants to

22 come up with their own proposal and what I'm asking is,
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1 would it be possible to say these five items we all

2 want and then here are separate parts that we either

3 want to add or subtract. It doesn't look promising,

4 huh?

5 MR. STEPHENS: Phillip Stephens, HTP. I

6 think that was the intent.

7 MR. EISNER: Okay.

8 MR. STEPHENS: So what we can do is tomorrow

9 we can get together and go through each person's list

10 and maybe give an Excel sheet of what it is. You'll

11 see some have more information than others and some

12 will just say no. So --

13 MS. BARHYDT: Did the meeting space today

14 work for you or would you like me to see what I can do

15 about getting additional rooms? I got one thumbs up.

16 MS. HOOTMAN: It was hard up there --

17 MR. WHITWELL: Yeah it was hard.

18 MR. AMRANE: Yeah, we would request one more

19 room.

20 MS. BARHYDT: So if I could get one more

21 room, okay. I will see what I can do and I will let

22 you know in the morning.
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1 (Off microphone discussion.)

2 MR. SACHS: Laura, I can check if the ACEEE

3 room is available, we can exile all of the commercial

4 HVAC people --

5 MS. HOOTMAN: Yeah, we love that room so much

6 --

7 MR. EISNER: Some of you can come in at 5 in

8 the morning and use this room. If it helps.

9 (Off microphone discussion.)

10 MS. BARHYDT: Okay, so it sounds like we have

11 a plan for how to proceed in the morning.

12 UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: What time?

13 MS. BARHYDT: 8:30.

14 (Off microphone discussion.)

15 MR. WHITWELL: So how long do we meet

16 tomorrow morning in our groups?

17 MS. BARHYDT: Do you all want one hour? Hour

18 and a half?

19 UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: One hour and then

20 check in.

21 MS. BARHYDT: One hour and then check in. So

22 if everybody will come here at 8:30, I will let you
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1 know where the rooms are, because it's going to take me

2 a little bit of time to confirm a room in the morning.

3 The room people aren't still here.

4 MR. SACHS: Laura, can those of us who aren't

5 in one of those groups be excused from first period?

6 MR. WHITWELL: We will have a separate room

7 for you.

8 MR. SACHS: With padding.

9 MR. DOPPEL: Harvey we're requesting that you

10 participate with us.

11 MR. SACHS: Done.

12 MR. EISNER: All right. Any other issues

13 that we want to talk about? At least start discussion

14 on to get people thinking about? Anybody have anything

15 they want to raise?

16 MR. AMRANE: This is Karim with AHRI. Just a

17 question about when are we going to be talking about

18 the effective dates, during those three days?

19 MS. BARHYDT: We can talk about it tomorrow,

20 we can talk about it Wednesday? Is everybody ready to

21 talk about it?

22 MR. AMRANE: I think so. I think we had a
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1 proposal last time.

2 MS. BARHYDT: Everybody ready to vote on the

3 proposal from last time about the effective dates?

4 (Yeses.)

5 MS. BARHYDT: I thought there still was some

6 CRE fleshing out going on. You're ready?

7 MR. HON: Yes, we had meetings on it.

8 MS. BARHYDT: Okay.

9 MR. MYERS: This is Frank Myers. Is it going

10 to be put up on the screen before we vote?

11 MS. BARHYDT: We can put it up on the screen

12 before we vote.

13 MR. MYERS: Good. I think we has resolution,

14 but I'm not certain.

15 MR. EISNER: Do we want to do that now?

16 We've got 25 minutes left.

17 (Pause.)

18 MS. BARHYDT: Does anyone have that slide?

19 Somebody else brought in that proposal last time and I

20 think it --

21 MR. AMRANE: It was Rusty.

22 MS. HOOTMAN: It was Rusty.
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1 MS. BARHYDT: Rusty, if you're still on the

2 phone can you put that on the share point?

3 Is it on share point?

4 MR. WHITWELL: I looked earlier and didn't

5 see it.

6 MR. THARP: Rusty's still on the phone. I'm

7 sorry, what am I supposed to put on the share point?

8 MS. BARHYDT: You had the proposed timetable

9 for when the various certification requirements would

10 kick in.

11 MR. THARP: Yes, I can -- I guess I can put

12 it on there, if not I'll e-mail it to you.

13 MS. BARHYDT: Okay.

14 MR. THARP: I've downloaded stuff; I've just

15 never added anything to it.

16 MS. BARHYDT: Okay, we'll put it up on the

17 screen first thing in the morning.

18 MR. THARP: Okay. Are the HVAC manufacturers

19 still in the room?

20 MS. HOOTMAN: Yes.

21 MR. WHITWELL: Yes.

22 MR. THARP: Can we use my teleconference
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1 number for tomorrow morning and allow me to

2 participate?

3 MS. HOOTMAN: Oh yeah. Good idea. Send it

4 to me again Rusty, Jill. And we'll do that.

5 MR. THARP: Okay.

6 MS. HOOTMAN: We'll do that through the

7 cellphone like you guys did with me or whatever.

8 MR. THARP: Okay, that will be great. I'll

9 e- mail it to you guys again.

10 MS. HOOTMAN: Thanks.

11 MR. THARP: Thank you. Goodbye all.

12 MS. BARHYDT: Goodbye Rusty.

13 MR. EISNER: Anything else anybody else wants

14 to raise or remind people of that we've got to cover?

15 (No response.)

16 MR. EISNER: Okay.

17 MS. BARHYDT: Okay. Thank you all.

18 (Whereupon, at 5:37 p.m., the Appliance

19 Standards and Rulemaking Federal Advisory

20 Committee Meeting was concluded.)

21

22
Capital Reporting Company 

Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Committee Meeting 08-26-2013 

1 CERTIFICATE OF COURT REPORTER 

2 I, CHRISTINE ALLEN, the Court Reporter before 

3 whom the foregoing proceeding was taken, do hereby 

4 certify that the proceeding was recorded by me; that 

5 the proceeding was thereafter reduced to typewriting 

6 under my direction; that said transcript is a true and 

7 accurate record of the proceeding; that I am neither 

8 related to nor employed b y any of the parties to this 

9 proceeding; and, further, that I have no financial 

10 interest in this proceeding. 

11 

12 

13 

14 

15 

16 

17 

18 

19 

20 

21 

22 

~\Ul(~ CHR I STiNE ALLiN 

Digital Court Reporter 

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66:2 67:7 69:19

70:9 77:5 82:17

84:20 89:1

90:16,17 96:5

101:6 110:11,12

111:8,19 125:17

Bill's 61:22

bit 7:15 16:10

24:16 31:19

37:10 48:19

69:19 136:9

155:8 173:8

191:22 196:18

200:1 204:3

209:7,10 217:2

BlackBerry 83:4

blank 122:13

blowers 10:15

blowing 163:2,7

blue 177:6

board 18:6 90:15

102:18 105:8

Bob 12:14 61:21

62:21 146:18

155:9 157:20

167:18 168:11

170:13 205:17

206:6

Bob's 146:6

bodies 44:18 47:7

105:5

body 37:20 39:14

44:8 105:2

bogus 205:1

boiler 5:8 16:9

57:15 61:9 69:2

100:4 105:8

106:21

107:11,12

127:16 128:19

140:13 199:5

boilers 5:3,12

6:1,2 14:14,21

33:22 57:16

61:10,19

62:18,22 63:15

67:13 97:13

100:7 103:20

104:13,21

106:6,9

107:17,18

126:12

127:1,4,11,13,20

128:19 129:20

139:11,15

141:16

142:6,8,11

144:5,10 172:6

214:17

boiler-water 172:7

209:5 213:21

booked 20:6

boom 116:1

borne 25:5

bottom 71:13 72:2

73:10

boxes 67:10

brain 67:8

brand 123:13

177:12

break 24:14 73:14

90:18,20 101:20

109:4 135:22

141:17,19 207:2

breakdown 82:18

breaking 5:19

138:10

breakout 139:3

145:2 172:2

179:15 180:3

189:15

Brian 2:18

32:20,21 44:4,11

46:11 66:3 70:11

71:18 72:11 91:9

180:2 212:16

213:2

brief 91:5

bring 18:16

24:11,13 30:20

53:17 72:22

73:2,3,4 91:11

205:11 214:6

brings 175:18

broader 58:18

Brooks 3:8,17

14:17,21 68:16

96:16 102:2

104:5 128:6

133:20 134:5

brought 16:20

28:19 81:4 89:2

159:5 213:11

218:19

BTS 69:12

BTU 63:2 104:13

129:21

BTUs 5:21

61:12,13 68:3

budget 93:14,15

budgetary 194:5

build

47:13,15,16,19

127:5,18

139:18,19

210:16,19

building 1:8 107:9

174:19 176:14

build-to 94:10

build-to-order

67:9 68:10

127:12,19 136:5

213:10,16

built 64:14 68:12

70:4,5,7 100:14

113:14

128:6,10,11

131:14 212:8

built-to-order

79:8 129:7,11

212:3

bullet 16:22 79:21

81:10 146:17

153:12,14 155:4

162:2,10 168:16

bullets 145:17

bunch 72:3

bundle 177:3

burden 18:21 19:2

23:5 25:14 29:22
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98:4 102:5

104:10 106:9

114:14 134:7

burdens 131:21

burdensome 72:16

132:12

burn 163:21

burned 205:3

business 9:6 27:15

businesses 206:22

207:1

buying 93:21

175:12

buys 114:8

buzz 127:4,15

C

cachet 116:15

Cadillac 27:10

63:19 64:1 92:13

94:8 95:3 116:12

181:12 206:13

Cadillacs 30:5

Calabrese 2:15

84:18 85:14

115:9

calibrated 33:16

36:21

calibration 30:19

37:16

California 93:7

100:20

capabilities 37:1

capability 32:7

93:10

capable 42:9

capacity 10:10

11:9 59:17 60:13

61:14,17 63:2

97:14

Capital 1:18

care 94:11 110:21

176:6

career 211:8

careful 86:5 196:2

202:3

cares 91:1

carried 124:8

Carrier 4:7 52:15

61:22 79:11

146:18 168:12

Carrier's 53:5

carry 120:11

case 8:17 12:22

41:12 60:1

80:13,18 104:9

187:6 204:22

cases 9:17 12:16

61:14 71:21

76:20 82:21 83:2

102:19 106:1

147:1,19 158:14

catalogued 63:13

catch 99:21 120:15

categories 45:20

60:5 205:14

207:22 212:18

caught 114:20

causing 104:18

caution 126:8

caveat 60:7

cavities 67:8

CEE 124:20,22

125:15,19,21

cellphone 220:7

certain 9:17

36:19,22 37:1

38:15 43:7 57:18

58:1 65:10 92:20

106:8,20 124:9

129:17,21

152:17 165:11

201:3 207:13

218:14

certainly 10:11

29:7 61:9 91:19

92:9 94:20 97:12

126:15 128:2

186:18 204:20

certainty 92:15

102:7 180:14

CERTIFICATE

221:1

certification

11:19,21 16:2

21:22 24:20,22

30:5,7,15,22

31:5 32:4

37:5,10 44:8,18

47:7 50:15 52:21

53:12,13

56:5,9,11,20

58:9,18 59:4

93:1 111:3

116:22 117:1

120:12 123:9

124:17 145:21

156:21 160:20

178:12,19

181:7,16 182:13

184:3,8,12,22

188:7 189:11

197:17 201:9

202:4 219:9

certifications

38:10 89:6 117:6

162:6 184:14

198:10

certification-type

39:6

certified 31:6

56:17,18,21 57:3

58:8,12,15 92:19

115:20

116:2,11,12,21

117:7 120:7,17

121:9 124:6

129:7 157:6

173:10,12,13

174:9 175:19

176:7 177:3,8,16

178:14,21

179:1,2,17

182:10,21

183:21 185:17

188:4 189:4,6

190:5,6,7,11,14,

20

191:8,10,12,13,1

5,17 197:16

203:10

204:21,22

certifier 202:6

certify 31:4

48:16,17 56:6

115:22 129:6,9

155:21 160:13

166:9,11,12,18

178:7 183:10

184:5 185:8

186:4 187:10

202:6 221:4

certifying 56:4

156:7 160:18

167:2 175:6,7

190:16

205:19,20

CFRN 140:20

chain 35:22

chairs 143:19
Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Committee Meeting 08-26-2013

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challenge 6:15

32:1 75:5,7,11

77:6,7,16,22

78:16,20 79:3,22

80:2,5 81:14,21

82:12 84:22

85:12,15 98:14

99:6,22 100:11

101:7,11,14,16

102:2,3,10,16,22

105:14,16

108:19 114:9

116:4,5 128:14

204:13

challenged 84:20

100:12

challengee 75:14

85:4

challenger 75:14

78:1,2 79:1

challenges 76:7,10

78:9 82:19 103:2

challenging 98:17

chance 18:16,17

23:14

change 16:8 43:21

93:3 99:17 126:7

158:16 160:17

164:12 171:21

209:18,20 210:1

changed 99:16

132:19

changes 11:2,4

178:8

changing 10:3

characteristic 15:4

characteristics

59:16 61:13

62:19 137:22

157:13 176:1

characterizations

138:6

characterize 92:12

137:20

characterizing

94:8

charges 24:21

Charles 3:2

Charlie 19:7,10

20:4 21:10 29:2

104:20 128:8

134:9 135:3

196:14 200:14

chart 74:16 172:12

174:8 199:1

check 105:16

142:1,2 184:13

216:2,20,21

checked 65:4

186:14,19

checking

114:11,16,17

checklists 113:10

chillers 70:2

choice 28:4 54:4

74:3 204:1

choose 64:22 66:9

72:17

chooses 196:20

choosing 71:9,11

208:5

Christine 1:17

221:2,15

Cincinnati

107:9,12,14

circles 136:8

circumstances

131:12

claim 101:12

120:19,21

137:8,10,16

166:7 178:11,17

199:11,20

claimed 107:15

138:2

claiming 103:8

107:8 114:12

claims 120:7,10

128:22

clarification

146:17,21

212:17 213:5

clarify 95:13

148:15

clarifying

152:17,19

clarity 169:15

class 14:9 92:20

97:4,5,7 122:12

150:8 157:7

classes 25:14

classifications

165:13

clean 105:19

cleaned 105:22

clear 26:14

118:4,15 119:15

120:8 172:17

199:15,17

200:11,12

clearly 74:1 146:2

Cleaver 3:8,17

14:17,20 68:15

96:15 102:1

104:5 128:5

133:20 134:5

clicking 191:10

client 20:2 27:15

close 94:21 151:3

181:9 189:18

193:17

closer 115:1

207:11

closet 143:18,20

144:8

clue 47:14

Co 3:7,16

coat 143:18

code 105:8 199:8

coffee 140:5

142:15,17

collect 93:15

Collin 4:13

column 120:2

198:15

columns 122:9

combustion

140:10

comes 14:4 45:12

86:19 110:16

117:18 191:18

comfortable 10:11

12:10 53:16

55:12

coming 32:6 77:13

95:8 126:1 149:2

181:9

comment 18:14

70:12 72:10

134:10 205:12

comments 10:7

15:7 17:13,17

25:17 67:9

101:20 108:6

171:8
Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Committee Meeting 08-26-2013

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commerce 25:3,9

26:13 133:10

188:1 202:10

203:1 205:7

commercial 16:17

17:10 30:9

33:20,22 34:17

38:3 60:1 63:15

67:12,22 89:14

91:18 98:21

125:8,22 126:15

129:5 140:17

141:5,6 156:4

185:2,13 186:11

188:14 189:21

205:13,15 206:1

209:12,14 216:3

Commission 89:13

93:7 100:20

commissioned

104:22 105:1

133:1 213:14

commissioning

105:10

Commission's

178:16

committed 146:11

189:19

committee 1:4

125:14 220:20

common 63:12

72:21 181:2

214:13,16,17

communication

55:4

companies 16:9

17:22 19:11

174:4 205:1

208:13,16

company 1:18

48:13 68:17

93:11,12,17

105:4 106:22

171:12 188:21

208:11

company's 173:11

comparable

27:2,13 121:1

151:7 157:12,13

173:20 176:1

193:5

comparative 135:7

compare 191:11

200:16

compared

208:11,14

comparing 117:17

191:3

comparison 121:3

153:20 163:12

comparisons

111:10

competing 119:2

competition 103:6

competitive

100:14

116:9,10,16

competitor 32:3

99:7,8 114:9

competitors 15:10

64:5 98:15,17

99:4

competitor's 32:2

completed 55:18

84:9

completely 62:21

81:17 131:22

145:1 214:15

compliance 187:10

192:17 203:21

compliant 93:18

99:1,9

complicated 49:6

189:20

complication

191:22

complied 201:12

complies 106:3

comply 201:8

complying 193:20

component

99:14,16

components 15:3

59:18 61:17

66:19 70:7

compressor 60:12

computers 133:11

concept 22:21

31:11 59:9

60:13,21

134:13,14,20

135:5 145:11

146:14 183:10

concern 6:20

16:18 17:3 21:7

22:14,20,22

90:9,12 91:19

111:14 177:17

187:7 191:2

concerned 20:5

24:16 107:4

120:6 180:20

184:8 195:20

204:3

concerning 101:20

concerns 17:21

19:3 89:9 91:17

94:12 101:21

123:5,8 126:18

conclude 192:3

concluded 192:12

220:20

conclusion 55:21

131:18

conclusions 80:17

conclusive 84:12

concrete 136:10

condition 147:9

conditioner 89:8

conditioners 47:17

conditioning

106:7 126:15

conditions

159:12,16 160:2

conduct 30:17

40:13 45:20

46:15 82:9

93:9,16 201:17

conducted 41:10

83:14 99:7

conducting 34:21

46:9

conference 17:9

142:21,22

143:16

confidence 177:11

confident 15:9

confirm 217:2

conflict 32:16,17

confused 165:15

202:11

confusing 166:5

confusion

56:10,15,19

57:14 195:13,19
Capital Reporting Company

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connection 173:5

cons 108:21

consensus 110:16

141:10 153:4

169:7

consequences

73:22 74:6,13

123:6

consider 13:7 80:4

103:9 123:9

124:10 130:14

134:12 169:6

consideration

10:6,18 19:11

20:10

considerations

19:21

considered 27:18

112:21

considering 14:9

97:16

consistent 184:14

Consortium

124:13 125:3

constantly 45:2

constitutes 119:1

constraints 6:16

construction 63:12

66:21 176:13

consumer 24:21

89:12 122:16

177:11 196:3

consumers 186:18

198:4

consumption

121:15

contact 70:15

121:19

contains 122:8

cont'd 3:1 4:1

context 20:17 38:1

148:4

continual 187:21

continue 8:1

125:15 189:19

194:3,14,17

continues 46:18

continuing 137:14

138:3 208:20

continuous 32:15

continuously

32:12

contract 36:17,19

contracting 37:7

contractor 38:3,6

122:16

contractors 65:12

contracts 50:4

65:18

contractual 65:16

contrary 120:14

control 43:13

Control-C 179:20

controls 93:2

Control-V 179:20

controversy 176:9

conventional

154:13

conversation 11:6

45:6 126:13

conversations 9:21

163:11

convert 61:11

convey 42:16 52:1

conveyed 50:18

52:3

convinced 97:5

cool 131:19 163:3

cooled 150:20

Cooling 2:19

coordinate 134:14

coordinated 17:11

copy 16:20 24:11

168:14 170:12

corner 136:19

Corporation 3:22

4:7

correct 7:12

36:7,16 57:11

82:13 87:19

93:19 101:10

125:18 172:20

212:19

correctly 10:14

41:10,11 49:6,9

54:10,18

cost 19:17 22:22

23:3,7 25:3,13

98:4,5,8 102:11

106:14 115:7

127:8

cost-benefit 20:19

cost-effective 68:7

costs 15:16,19

17:22 18:21

20:20 24:16

102:4 106:8

123:11 127:9

Council 3:11,20

countless 128:12

country 204:7

couple 5:4,9 8:17

11:8 16:9,17

73:16 87:1

138:21 141:14

188:10 190:22

210:4

course 24:6 30:16

31:22 32:4 61:2

64:13 65:3 73:20

74:4,6,22 75:9

83:2 94:18 100:5

115:12,15 176:8

211:6

Court 221:1,2,15

cover 31:14 57:9

152:18 220:14

covered 10:1 20:9

43:3 57:17 58:19

59:4 69:15

103:13 118:5,6

145:20 146:3,20

147:3,5

148:1,5,14,20

156:17 162:13

198:18 210:18

Covered/notcovered 148:13

covers 44:18

129:15

CRE 27:8

28:9,13,15

97:12,21 103:20

127:15,20

139:12,13

140:11 142:5,6

143:10 202:1,15

205:20

206:10,11,17

209:1 218:6

create 154:17

195:12

creating 116:10,14
Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Committee Meeting 08-26-2013

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credible 30:21

82:3 204:10,15

205:9

credit 183:13

CRE's 144:12

criteria 38:15 60:3

86:20 106:3

181:5,10 188:17

criticizing 87:15

cross-states 13:10

crystal 199:17

CSA 4:2 168:17

CSA's 44:2

curb 147:12

current 10:21

57:22 155:11

currently 11:14

45:11,19 46:1

61:3 69:6 75:2

95:11 109:20

146:8 151:8

152:18 190:15

curve 149:3,4

159:17

custom 128:10

129:1 131:14

136:5 139:19

211:22 212:3

customer 105:14

106:22

customers 25:16

103:7 104:9

125:16 170:17

customer's 105:18

106:20

customs 210:9

cut 69:4 190:9

cycle 133:7,12

134:2

D

D.C 1:10

Daikin 3:5,14

daily 185:9

Dane 2:16 19:18

22:5 23:17 27:6

28:17 29:16,20

42:21

43:12,17,21

44:13 192:10

201:21 205:17

206:14,19 209:2

danger 109:14

data 20:2,3 27:16

28:3 41:8 46:17

95:22 98:21

108:5 149:6

151:14,16 152:9

155:13 161:8

164:3 166:2

169:1 185:9,16

186:5,6 187:14

196:18 197:4

202:5,6 204:2

210:8

database

117:10,12,18

120:2 189:11

date 84:16 198:4

dates 217:18 218:3

Dave 84:18 115:9

David 2:15

DAVP 190:2

209:15

day 7:7 24:10

72:15 103:5

187:18

days 8:17 71:1

177:4 217:18

de 75:21 123:9

178:19 189:10

196:19

deadline 7:15

deadlines 20:7

deal 9:15 22:14

26:2 90:11

177:17 211:21

213:19

dealing 12:11

125:8

death 204:5

debated 180:5

decide 47:11 60:7

69:3 79:2

deciding 104:14

decision 75:10

174:17

188:11,12,15

decisions 175:3

deemed 200:1

Defense 174:15

176:6

deficiency 137:8

138:3

define 9:13 62:5

210:10,14

defined 146:2

154:22 212:14

defines 14:2

definite 149:7,11

161:19 164:1,2,4

167:21 168:3,5,7

definitely 39:1

42:5 56:9 62:17

142:22 143:9

definition 11:10

14:7 29:6

31:9,10 61:6

62:4 63:8 134:18

135:8,9

150:13,14 151:1

154:15 162:1

164:9 195:5,6

definitions 59:11

127:18

definitive 85:2,9

defray 19:16

Degitz 4:10

degree 94:2

delay 85:8

deliverables

136:13

demonstrate

36:18,22

demonstrated

15:20

department 1:1,6

2:6,7 5:6 8:4

10:5 12:10,11

13:17 38:21

41:1,21 63:19

82:6 83:2,6

110:14

111:11,13,14,16

112:8 117:4

146:11 153:4

170:19 174:15

176:5 179:4

182:10 185:18

Departments

175:11

Department's 9:16

38:18 102:14

110:10,21

138:18 145:16

169:6
Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Committee Meeting 08-26-2013

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depend 72:11

76:22 193:2

depending 73:6

75:12 86:17

207:20

depends 71:19,20

88:19 139:20

150:6 152:15

derail 202:16

derailed 202:18

de-rate 74:3 77:4

de-rated 76:1

Derek 2:20

derived 132:9

deriving 114:2

describe 39:20

49:21 58:14

161:3 195:18

197:2

described 73:22

94:7,15 153:18

describes 55:7

77:16 80:21

112:13

describing 35:18

161:2

164:14,16,18

description 197:11

descriptive 164:9

descriptor 14:6

descriptors 59:18

60:11

design 13:15 15:1

25:13 63:11

92:19 93:2,3

99:15 127:10

159:13

designate 208:7

designation 63:12

118:4 137:16

designed 93:21

99:20 150:20

156:6 157:8

160:1

designers 203:22

designs 9:20 12:9

160:17

desire 171:14

despite 96:2

destroy 26:1,6

destroying 26:10

detail 12:15

121:13

detailed 110:18

details 6:13 13:4,5

16:4 24:9 110:13

111:5,9,21 112:6

193:2,15

determination

83:21 162:20

166:3

determine 146:10

149:5

determined 5:20

197:8

determining 6:14

124:7

deterrent 75:3

devalue 123:12

develop 15:2 102:6

developed 179:22

194:20,21

developing 95:5

development

204:6

devil's 40:21

110:13

dialogue 171:19

Diane 158:19

164:14,16

167:19

difference 35:21

36:13 40:3 41:19

54:1 55:15 71:14

115:2,19 128:9

129:10 163:21

174:15,20 188:9

196:9

differences 30:14

36:8 97:14

different 6:8,14

9:18 11:12

29:7,9 32:18

37:11,18,19,22

44:20 47:20

48:19 49:13

53:17 62:7,12

66:9 69:17

94:13,14 100:6,9

101:2 108:14,22

131:12,13,15

135:19,20,22

137:2 139:16

146:1 153:21

156:16 157:22

159:17 160:1

168:5,8 173:1

175:6,18 179:16

181:8 183:8,19

184:16,18

185:14 188:17

189:16

205:14,21

206:7,8,10,22

207:4 214:14

differentiated

25:10

differentiation

121:11

differently 53:1

difficult 122:3

213:16

Digital 221:15

digress 67:18

diligence 112:18

diminished 116:13

direct 10:15

211:16

directing 100:4

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221:6

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directly 45:2 80:10

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118:2,14 119:15

123:14 125:20

126:4 137:8

177:16

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115:15 139:1

disagreed 80:16

disagreement

118:21

discern 122:11

disclaimer

117:15,16

disconnect 116:20

discontinued

93:20

discouraged 160:7

discretion 72:4
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discriminating

104:8

discuss 23:13

138:19 211:21

213:13

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198:16

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202:22

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43:18 112:13

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165:14

documented

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18:12,16 22:15

23:13,19 24:3,4

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199:11,13,21

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219:14

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drive 10:15 29:21

159:5,6 167:16

171:2

drivers 135:5

drives 159:8

drop 110:6

due 84:19 86:11
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dump 185:16

during 21:18

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earlier 41:21

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171:15

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219:12

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17:14

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72:14

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endorsement

117:8 178:12

184:10

energy 1:1,6 2:6,7

5:7 19:12 20:1

21:11 25:11

44:8,10 46:12,18
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Energy-Efficient

3:11,20

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115:11,16,18

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3:10,19

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204:1,2

envisioned 23:19

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89:13

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117:20 130:20

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equally 48:21 49:2

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equipment 17:12

30:20 36:21

38:3,8,12 48:15

51:11,14 53:1

58:8 92:20 93:16

96:2 106:11

108:2 118:13

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203:11 207:14

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211:10

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examples 62:1

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215:10

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exclude 13:17 20:2

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excuse 140:4

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executive 176:21

177:19

exhausted 85:6,9

exile 216:3

exist 43:3 45:16

100:17 128:14

145:19 146:20

existed 118:2

existence 95:11

105:21
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69:15 109:8

151:10 152:19

153:10

exists 45:15 95:11

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209:7

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53:3,21

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132:15

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132:11

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expressed 91:19

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104:5 203:7

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eyes 55:5

F

fabricated 15:3

FACILITATOR

2:2

facilities 16:7

30:18 45:16 48:6

facility 34:2,5 35:8

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51:3,6

64:17,18,21

fact 28:10 96:19

115:16 124:19

172:11 173:21

187:15 189:10

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85:21 86:2 99:11

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78:15 89:18

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200:15

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63:4 100:21

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60:2

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59:11 60:12,19

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features 177:4

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89:3,7,13 90:5

109:18 113:21

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176:12,16,19

177:18

178:15,16

220:19

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53:16 75:3 98:6

135:17 165:9

173:1 209:12

feelings 127:16

feels 11:21 172:11

feet 97:6

felt 10:11 134:22

189:22 213:13

FEMP 176:11

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33:3 44:4,11

46:11 66:2 70:11

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212:16 213:2

field 18:9 25:15

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fight 45:1

figure 20:22 66:7

140:22 144:4

filling 155:9

final 7:17 16:21

99:18 152:13

finally 86:12

finance 48:9

financial 48:9
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fine 93:22 194:17

195:8

fineable 120:15

fire 61:10

fired 140:16

firm 24:19

first 24:3 41:3

49:22 79:21

84:11,21,22

122:19 123:16

137:20 146:17

172:4 193:1

198:17 209:10

217:5 219:17

fit 61:7 132:22

143:15

fits 97:6

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215:1

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Flexibility

192:5,13

flexible 131:16

floating 177:5

floor 142:21

flowing 163:18

flunk 104:8 108:17

flunked 193:12

Fly 2:19 210:3,14

212:11

focused 95:20

103:19

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180:11,12

FOIA-able 197:22

FOIAed 122:5

FOIAing 198:2

FOIAs 122:4

folks 5:15 19:5

91:19 121:5

127:16 138:9

206:5 213:21

Food 17:12

foothold 29:10

force 167:11

forced 27:10

foregoing 221:3

forget 70:1

forklift 71:6

form 92:18 94:15

former 93:17

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177:7 209:11

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forward 8:7,9

77:20 79:3 80:18

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204:6

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155:10

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framework

126:19,20

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177:22 183:19

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141:5

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G

gain 53:6 98:13

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41:9,13 46:21

54:7 122:5

123:13 147:19

183:12 184:9

186:19 198:8

201:1 204:15
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215:15

Giant 177:12

gist 86:16

given 29:18 43:8

74:8 81:21 83:21

85:4 91:17

135:18 169:6

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208:19

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204:9

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goals 13:8

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173:17,18

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220:11,12

gotcha 101:9

govern 105:6

government 2:20

117:8 176:19

178:1 182:3

187:20

government-run

109:18 189:5

government's

135:16

government-type

189:9

grab 73:1

grand 111:21

grasp 22:10

great 9:22 10:2

22:14 26:2 37:12

90:11 122:21

175:4 177:21

189:6 220:8

greater

130:16,17,20

208:1 209:13

greatly 175:4

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177:12

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61:6 62:4,6,19

63:1,10 66:10

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171:15 172:7

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grouped 11:15,18

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139:9 141:11,18

142:4 143:15

144:15 172:2

186:18 200:2

207:6 212:13

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217:5

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guarantee 15:13

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18:13 24:2 25:19

29:22 38:16

41:18 66:6 98:11

128:18 162:22

173:4 175:17

177:21

183:15,18

184:15 186:22

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219:11

guidance 113:12

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guidelines 36:9

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H

half 78:12 90:22

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203:8

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70:14

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happens 16:3

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102:22 114:9

185:9

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171:6 202:7

207:17

hard 15:15 107:11

111:19

215:16,17

Harvey 3:11,20

10:8 11:1,5
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24:15 25:18

26:7,21 62:20

67:7 89:1 97:1

103:14 127:17

132:3 133:4

139:22 140:7

142:14 145:16

176:2 203:6

204:18 217:9

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213:20

having 10:16 11:6

18:10 19:2 27:12

29:12 32:18

38:22 63:12

72:13 77:1 81:10

90:4 96:2 116:4

120:2,6 128:15

160:15 177:13

187:2 194:11

197:13 198:15

203:11 204:3

head 66:17

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101:15 158:22

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100:11 128:19

132:5 138:20

151:12 198:22

209:4 214:18

hearing 10:13

22:14 28:2 91:3

106:17 108:7

210:22

heartburn 104:18

heat 58:17 63:2

heater 129:15

140:13 172:7

199:5 209:5

213:21

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143:7

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incurred 15:20

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listings 19:12

118:14 120:10
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lists 121:2 198:17

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manufacturer's

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now's 17:19

NRCan 21:11
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nuances 113:8

174:21

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number's

202:13,14

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209:11

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oversight 88:3

210:7

overwhelmed

204:15
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P

p.m 130:5

144:15,16

220:18

P2S 3:10,19

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61:13 82:18

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149:19,20

203:18

performing 99:19

performs 33:17
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perhaps 42:14

55:20 91:12

92:20 94:9,10

103:9 126:21

140:11 176:11

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periodic 184:13

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178:10

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215:5

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213:11

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54:14,20 158:14

pick 45:1 71:4

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202:4

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160:2

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216:11

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platforms 133:7

play 25:10 40:20

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109:21 205:15

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present 27:20

29:12,17 43:9

75:3 80:13

172:11

presentation

55:18,22 110:12
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presentations 91:8

presented 28:18

29:1 31:2 56:20

64:12

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216:11

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102:12

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required 18:1

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Rusty's 219:6
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S

Sachs 3:11,20 10:8

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separately 139:3

200:4
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separating 200:2

September 7:14

series 56:8 83:13

137:1

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138:22
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sophisticated

195:22 196:4

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141:18,19
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5:10,11,18,22

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22:7,21 23:7
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54:21 55:19
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114:7,8,10

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Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Committee Meeting 08-26-2013

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Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Committee Meeting 08-26-2013

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