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 DEPARTMENT OF ENERGY

 COMMERCIAL/INDUSTRIAL PUMPS WORKING GROUP

 Thursday, June 19, 2014

 8:25 a.m.

 Commercial/Industrial Pumps Working Group

 1000 Independence Avenue, SW

 Washington, D.C. 20585

 Reported by: Chaz Bennett, RPR/CSR,

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1 A P P E A R A N C E S

2 Doug Brookman, Working Group Facilitator

3 Charlie Cappellino, ITT

4 Al Huber, Patterson

5 Mark Handzel, Xylem

6 Greg Case, Hydraulic Institute

7 Greg Towsley, Grundfos

8 Jay Sivigny, Flowserve

9 Steve Rosenstock, Edison Electric Institute

10 Gary Ferstrom, Pacific Gas & Electric

11 Tom Eckman, Norwest Power and Conservation Council

12 Louis Starr, NEEA

13 Joanna Mauer, Appliance Standards Awareness

Project

14

Doug Potts, American Water

15

Lucas Adin, U.S. Department of Energy

16

Sara Widder, Pacific Northwest National Laboratory

17

Dan Weintraub, Navigant

18

Alison Williams, Lawrence Berkeley National

19 Laboratory

20 Jeff Alascio, ABB

21 Rob Boteler, NIDEC Motor Corporation

22
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1 A P P E A R A N C E S (Cont'd)

2 Present via telephone:

 Meg Waltner

3 Joanna Mauer

 Jennifer McGrath

4

Also present:

5 Jeremiah Freeman

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22
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1 P R O C E E D I N G S

2 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Are we ready to

3 begin? Let's start. Good morning, everyone.

4 Welcome. So glad to see you this morning. This

5 is the U.S. Department of Energy's Commercial and

6 Industrial Pumps Negotiated Rulemaking Working

7 Group. Today is June 19th, 2014. This is the

8 seventh meeting of this working group. I'm so

9 happy to see you this morning.

10 My name is Doug Brookman, from Public

11 Solutions in Baltimore. We will start, as we

12 typically do, with introductions around the room.

13 To my immediate left first, name and

14 organizational affiliation.

15 MR. CAPPELLINO: Charlie Cappellino,

16 ITT.

17 MR. BARBOUR: Bob Barbour, Taco.

18 MR. HUBER: Al Huber, Patterson.

19 MR. HANDZEL: Mark Handzel, Xylem.

20 MR. CASE: Greg Case, Hydraulic

21 Institute.

22 MR. TOWSLEY: Greg Towsley, Grundfos.
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1 MR. SIVIGNY: Jay Sivigny, Flowserve.

2 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Steve Rosenstock,

3 Edison Electric Institute.

4 MR. FERSTROM: Gary Ferstrom,

5 representing the

6 California investor-owned utilities:

7 Pacific Gas and Electric Company, the Southern

8 California Edison Company, San Diego Gas and

9 Electric, and Southern California Gas Company.

10 MR. ECKMAN: Tom Eckman, Northwest Power

11 and Conservation Council.

12 MR. STARR: Louis Starr, NEEA.

13 MS. MAUER: Joanna Mauer, Appliance

14 Standards Awareness Project.

15 MR. POTTS: Doug Potts, American Water.

16 MR. ADIN: Lucas Adin, DOE.

17 MS. WIDDER: Sara Widder, Pacific

18 Northwest National Labs (inaudible).

19 MR. BROOKMAN: It's okay.

20 (Laughter.)

21 MR. BROOKMAN: We'll probably need it.

22 MR. WEINTRAUB: Dan Weintraub, Navigant.
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1 MR. WILLIAMS: Alison Williams, Lawrence

2 Berkeley National Lab.

3 MR. ALASCIO: Jeff Alascio, ABB.

4 MR. BOTELER: Rob Boteler, NIDEC Motor

5 Corporation.

6 MR. BROOKMAN: Again, welcome all. Glad

7 to see you this morning.

8 This is the third consecutive day of

9 meetings for this working group. We've made big

10 progress yesterday and the day before. And we're

11 hoping today we will look at the term sheet that

12 we've been discussing. The term sheet, we hope,

13 contains the content that we've negotiated over

14 the span of the last over six months now. All of

15 the content, all of the votes are listed there.

16 And we hope today to confirm the content

17 of the term sheet and take a final vote that would

18 be the recommendation from this working group to

19 ASRAC. So that's the principal goal of the day

20 today.

21 We had a little bit of a late start.

22 Apologies to the group. Didn't have someone down
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1 there to check us in. So I'm glad to get this

2 underway here.

3 Meg Waltner said she'd be joining us

4 online.

5 MR. FREEMAN: She's online.

6 MR. BROOKMAN: She's on. Well, Meg,

7 it's early out there. Glad you could join us.

8 And Steve Rosenstock, glad you could

9 join us.

10 So, we have all of our members present.

11 Well, actually, we're missing one. We are missing

12 Howard Richardson at Regal Beloit and their

13 representative. So, everyone else is present.

14 Yesterday afternoon, the department sent

15 out a copy of the draft term sheet. All of us

16 have a copy of that electronically. And in

17 addition, we're having some copies printed.

18 Is that correct, Lucas?

19 MR. ADIN: Yes.

20 MR. BROOKMAN: So we'll have paper

21 copies for you to look at here shortly, I believe.

22 But I was wondering if there's anything
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1 else that we'd like to raise or any statements or

2 anything at the outset before we jump into this

3 more detailed content.

4 Bob Barbour.

5 MR. BARBOUR: Bob Barbour with Taco.

6 I was just wondering if we're going to

7 talk a little bit about the sampling sizes.

8 MR. BROOKMAN: You raised that

9 yesterday.

10 MR. BARBOUR: Before we get into the

11 term sheet.

12 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Okay. Let's do

13 that, because I think it would be nice to have a

14 paper copy of the term sheet to look at rather

15 than these small screens.

16 Who's in a position to -- Lucas, you

17 want to start with sampling size?

18 MR. ADIN: So, I'll try and address that

19 the best I can with the understanding that that's

20 something that I think, as Ashley pointed out the

21 other day, that that's something we're going to

22 have to handle through a separate rulemaking,
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1 address some of these other compliance and

2 certification issues that are part and parcel to

3 implementing this whole rulemaking.

4 So, I think she had explained generally

5 how sampling is addressed for all the other

6 products that we regulate, for the most part. I

7 mean, there are a few exceptions like motors and

8 transformers and other things that have unique

9 sampling plans.

10 But by and large, the general

11 requirement that DOE has is that for each basic

12 model of a covered product, the certified rating

13 has to be based on a tested sample of at least two

14 units.

15 Now, there are -- like I said, there are

16 exceptions, and that's dependent upon the

17 characteristics of the products and the test

18 burden and, you know, any other aspects of --

19 well, those are the two main things, but any other

20 aspects that DOE would need to consider in

21 determining what's appropriate.

22 So that's part of it. When we talk
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1 about the sampling plan, it's the minimum sample

2 of two or whatever the minimum is going to be for

3 that product, whatever we determine is

4 appropriate. And then there's certain statistics

5 that we use to determine what's representative for

6 the rating for that, based on the sample that

7 you've tested.

8 So, considering the variability and

9 production characteristics, and then any test

10 variability, you have a statistical method for

11 determining what the appropriate rating is so that

12 you have a reasonable assurance that the number

13 that you got straight out of the test, that

14 average value, is likely to be representative of

15 the overall population of products that are out

16 there.

17 So you're essentially adjusting it a

18 little bit. I mean, this is a very crude way of

19 explaining it. But now you have in most cases

20 like a 95 percent confidence interval, and you're

21 saying, you know, based on the standard deviation

22 between the units that you tested, you know,
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1 there's a little bit of an adjustment to reflect

2 that there may be some variability in the overall

3 population.

4 And so part of the sampling plan is

5 determining also what the appropriate statistical

6 level is to assure that that product is compliant

7 and that the rating that you got is representative

8 of the overall population when considering the

9 likely variation between units and the rating that

10 you've measured.

11 So, I don't know if that explanation

12 makes sense.

13 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Gary Ferstrom.

14 MR. FERSTROM: This is Gary. That was

15 an excellent lesson in statistics. Thank you.

16 (Laughter.)

17 MR. ADIN: My pleasure.

18 MR. BROOKMAN: And thinking about the

19 application, would the sampling plan -- pardon me.

20 I got a little distracted in the middle of that

21 lesson. So I'm not sure I captured all of it.

22 Would the sampling plan apply to every basic
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1 model?

2 MR. ADIN: Yes. So, the sampling plan

3 is used to determine the rating for each basic

4 model that you've tested.

5 MR. BROOKMAN: Yep.

6 MR. ADIN: So, in each case in which you

7 perform a test, you perform a test on this sample

8 of units from production. And you determine a

9 rating based on this statistical formula.

10 And I mean, we can, if it's helpful,

11 provide an example of what that looks like just so

12 you all know what we're using currently, with the

13 understanding that you may need to think about it

14 a little bit to provide useful feedback to the

15 department.

16 I mean, again, this is a thing that

17 we're going to address through rulemaking down the

18 road. We'll make a proposal once you've all had

19 the opportunity to think more about it.

20 Hopefully, you can provide us with some informed

21 feedback about it.

22 MR. BROOKMAN: And we have another
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1 question or two. But before we go there, and just

2 so -- the way this will play out on the

3 enforcement side, so this industry is new to all

4 of this. So the department will occasionally, or

5 when prompted, pull random units. And then they

6 will test them according to the method that, the

7 prescribed DOE method, test method.

8 And then they will make certain -- they

9 will see if the established efficiency rating,

10 whether that unit meets that established rating.

11 MR. ADIN: That's basically correct.

12 So, where we do any random sampling of the

13 population of units that are out in production in

14 the market, you know, to the extent we're going to

15 verify compliance of that particular basic model

16 with the standard and verify that its certifying

17 rating is valid, it would be based on the same

18 sampling plan and testing method that was used to

19 certify the basic model to begin with.

20 MR. BROOKMAN: I'm trying to walk

21 through this carefully here because you all are

22 new to this.
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1 Mark Handzel.

2 MR. HANDZEL: Mark Handzel from Xylem.

3 So, I'll start some of our feedback.

4 So, obviously, we've all been trying to

5 understand, what do we currently do, just so that

6 we have some reference? And I guess some of the

7 questions that we're getting to is, how does that

8 sample size apply? Does it really only apply when

9 you're going to be doing your testing? Or do we

10 have to use that same sampling, sample size as

11 well?

12 MR. ADIN: It's both.

13 MR. HANDZEL: Okay.

14 MR. ADIN: Yeah. So the certified

15 rating of a basic model has to be based on the use

16 of that sampling plan.

17 MR. HANDZEL: Right. Right. And, you

18 know, just to give you some ideas, you know, some

19 of us use, you know, for example, one pump volute,

20 and then use multiple impellers in the

21 qualification process to develop performance. And

22 then when we actually go to production castings,
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1 you know, then we will pull stuff off the line and

2 confirm we're still hitting those same performance

3 outputs that we were developing when we were doing

4 the qualification.

5 So, you know, when you get up in the

6 super- larger pumps, we typically might just take

7 one volute and maybe one impeller and use that,

8 and again use the same sampling process once we go

9 into production.

10 So, you know, we have a variety of

11 different ways that we do it. But I think,

12 clearly, we're all going to have to be a little

13 bit more diligent in our confirmation that our

14 performance is not degrading as castings wear and,

15 you know, patterns wear and things like that.

16 So, I think that's something that's

17 going to be new to the industry that we're all

18 going to have to -- some of us are diligent; some

19 of us are less diligent; some aren't diligent at

20 all. So the industry will have to adjust to this.

21 But I think we're just trying to

22 understand, do we have to use the same sample size
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1 method that you're dictating? Or if we're

2 comfortable with our method that we can attain and

3 hold -- you know, if you asked us to send us two

4 samples of that model, obviously, they've got to

5 come off of our production line. We can't touch

6 them, you know, in terms of making sure they can

7 make performance.

8 But if we're comfortable saying, "Go

9 ahead," and we still certify that data, can we use

10 our own sampling method?

11 MR. ADIN: So, the normal -- the way

12 that the DOE regulations work right now is

13 certification to the department, and the certified

14 rating and the certification of the department

15 that a particular basic model is compliant with

16 the standard has to be based on the sampling plan

17 that DOE has established for that type of product.

18 So, I mean, to the extent we consider

19 using something other than two, for example, which

20 is sort of the normal default for everything else,

21 you know, we approach that through the rulemaking

22 and we base it on whatever input you have about
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1 the test burdens and the likelihood of, you know -

2 - whether variability in production and testing

3 would matter that much.

4 I mean, Ashley was sort of indicating

5 the other day that in some cases, a sample of one

6 may be perfectly fine if you have a very high

7 level of certainty that it's just not likely that

8 things are going to vary that much. But, you

9 know, again, we'd have to be able to establish

10 that through data and evidence and that kind of

11 thing.

12 MR. HANDZEL: So, Mark Handzel.

13 Just some follow-on questions, too, and

14 Lucas, again, we haven't done this before. So I'm

15 assuming the DOE doesn't buy these products for

16 us; we're required to supply them at no cost?

17 MR. ADIN: It actually depends on the

18 circumstances. So, when DOE does what we've

19 referred to generally as verification testing,

20 where we're just randomly sampling products from

21 the market to see if they are compliant with the

22 standard, our typical approach is to purchase them
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1 from retail.

2 MR. HANDZEL: Okay.

3 MR. ADIN: So we're not going to the

4 manufacturer and saying, "Give us two pumps."

5 MR. HANDZEL: Okay, great.

6 MR. ADIN: Or whatever it is going to

7 be. We're going to go out and buy them. And so

8 that's the normal approach.

9 And now, if we were to test a product,

10 and based on the testing of that sample of

11 products it appeared that the product was not

12 compliant with the standard, then we'd proceed to

13 a different process that we call the enforcement

14 testing process.

15 Typically, I mean, there are different

16 ways of approaching that. But generally speaking,

17 if you're going to go to enforcement testing, then

18 there's a different process for that. And then we

19 do approach the manufacturer directly and require

20 a certain sample of products supplied at their

21 expense, and that kind of thing. So, generally

22 speaking, that's how things would typically work.
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1 MR. BROOKMAN: I don't know much about

2 this enforcement business. I really do not. But

3 I recall that Ashley said the first day we were

4 here, on Tuesday, that each manufacturer is asked

5 to make a declaration and sign. Yes?

6 MR. ADIN: So that's part of the

7 certification report. So when you certify, you

8 send in your form, basically, certifying all your

9 basic models. There's a line in there that, you

10 know, essentially you're putting your signature on

11 there saying, "I certify under penalty of perjury

12 that all these products are compliant with the

13 standard." That's basically what it is.

14 MR. BROOKMAN: Steve, I want to stay in

15 this same stream with these before I go down a

16 different direction.

17 Jay first, and then Al.

18 MR. SIVIGNY: Jay Sivigny, Flowserve.

19 Lucas, you gave some good information,

20 and I was just jotting down some questions. I've

21 got a few; I'll just throw them.

22 One is, what causes a prompt? Two, does
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1 the DOE have a test lab where they would do these

2 tests? And how was that done? Is the manufacturer

3 brought in to witness it?

4 Being new, I don't know this process.

5 Maybe you could clarify the process a little

6 better.

7 MR. ADIN: Sure. So, I mean, I'll speak

8 generally like I have been about other things

9 because, like, you know, we've been saying for

10 pumps we still have to work out some of these

11 details. But generally speaking, for verification

12 testing, it's random.

13 I mean, maybe there are certain things

14 we consider. I mean, if the manufacturer, a

15 particular manufacturer has a history of models

16 that have not been compliant, you know, maybe that

17 might factor in our decision whether to pick

18 something. I mean, we don't really have, you

19 know, defined criteria in the regulations that say

20 those things.

21 But, you know, generally speaking, it's

22 random. We're just trying to sample from across
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1 the population of products out on the market to

2 verify that things are actually compliant.

3 With respect to test laboratories, it

4 depends somewhat on the product. But I mean, we

5 do contract with test laboratories to do our

6 testing, for the most part. We don't have our own

7 in-house test lab where we test things.

8 MR. BROOKMAN: Al Huber.

9 MR. HUBER: Al Huber, Patterson.

10 Since we have the PER VL, the

11 requirement to test those if we want to do a test

12 rather than a calculation, are we required to do

13 two or just required to do one?

14 See, our problem is we have to go

15 purchase a VFD to go with that unit. And it's

16 going to get real expensive, very onerous if we

17 try to test. We will already have tested two of

18 the pumps.

19 MR. HANDZEL: But if it's calculated, we

20 don't need to test.

21 MR. HUBER: No, no, I know. But if we

22 want to test. My question is the test, what will
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1 we do? Can we just test one? It's going to get

2 real expensive if we don't.

3 MR. ADIN: Right. Understood. And I

4 mean, I think that's one of those things that we

5 probably need to think about a little more. But I

6 mean, that -- what you just said, it makes sense

7 to me. I mean, I understand what the implications

8 are with respect to cost and testing burden and

9 all that.

10 So, you know, that's exactly the kind of

11 thing that we'll be thinking about when, you know,

12 we articulate in the regulations exactly what the

13 sampling plan means with respect to pumps. Like,

14 does it really mean two entire systems? Or does

15 it mean two bare pumps that you test? Is that

16 essentially what you're asking?

17 MR. HUBER: Yeah. What I'm saying is we

18 already have to -- we're already required to test,

19 according to what you've said, two bare pumps.

20 MR. ADIN: Right. Right.

21 MR. HUBER: Then we put it in a train

22 test where the -- a variable speed drive.
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1 MR. ADIN: Right.

2 MR. HUBER: We would like to just test -

3 - if we're going to test, we want to test one.

4 Now, we understand we can calculate it and not

5 test at all.

6 MR. ADIN: Right.

7 MR. HUBER: But if we want to test, can

8 we certify it with one test? That was my

9 question.

10 MR. ADIN: So, if the -- I mean, if the

11 test procedure, which we've been talking about,

12 would allow calculation of the rating of that

13 model, that basic model on the basis of

14 calculation for the components other than the bare

15 pump, then I don't know of any reason why you

16 couldn't test -- well, you'd have the two bare

17 pump tests, and then the rest would be based on

18 the calculation.

19 Does that answer your question?

20 MR. HUBER: No.

21 MR. ADIN: No?

22 MR. HUBER: No.
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1 (Cross-talk.)

2 MR. HUBER: Let me finish this.

3 MR. ADIN: You'd still have to test two

4 bare pumps.

5 MR. HUBER: No. We can certify them

6 through calculation.

7 MR. ADIN: Right.

8 MR. HUBER: Right? We all understand

9 that.

10 MR. ADIN: Yeah.

11 MR. HUBER: But if we decide to test, we

12 want to be able to certify it with one test for

13 that strain.

14 MR. ADIN: Okay.

15 MR. HUBER: In other words, I'd take two

16 previously tested bare pumps, full diameter --

17 MR. ADIN: Yeah.

18 MR. HUBER: I purchase a VFD, I put it

19 in the strain, and I test it. I only want to buy

20 one -- one VFD, is what I'm saying, just one.

21 MR. ADIN: Right. Yeah. I understand

22 that part of it.
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1 MR. HUBER: Not two. I don't want to

2 have to test two of those.

3 MR. ADIN: Right. If you're going to do

4 the actual test, like the wire-to-water test, then

5 the way that our regs normally work for other

6 products, you would have to test two.

7 But if it's based on calculation -- I

8 think we're going to have to think about that a

9 little bit more.

10 MR. HUBER: You're going to make testing

11 so onerous nobody's going to do it.

12 MR. ADIN: Right.

13 MR. HUBER: And I think you would be

14 better served and the public would be better

15 served and the NGO's would be better served if

16 people actually tested some product.

17 MR. ADIN: Right.

18 MR. HUBER: And you're going to make it

19 so expensive nobody's going to do it.

20 MR. ADIN: Yeah. We don't have an

21 interest in doing that. I just think we need to

22 think a little more about how we're going to do
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1 that.

2 MR. BROOKMAN: First and foremost, there

3 will be plenty of opportunity for comment on this.

4 MR. ADIN: Oh, yeah.

5 MR. HUBER: Yeah. I wanted to bring

6 this forward so you could be thinking about, you

7 know, what our position is.

8 MR. ADIN: Yeah. And that's exactly

9 what we need to know.

10 MR. BROOKMAN: Several individuals are

11 queued to comment. And Steve's been in the queue

12 the longest.

13 Steve Rosenstock.

14 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Steve Rosenstock,

15 Edison Electric Institute.

16 Just to provide some perspective, you

17 know, the test procedure, it's a separate

18 rulemaking, but it is a standard on the

19 manufacturers that -- and so it would be, once

20 it's locked in, you would have to follow it.

21 With other appliances, typically what

22 DOE has done, if there is a certification program
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1 or test procedure done by a trade association, DOE

2 uses that as a template. Typically, they've

3 started with that, you know, of like AHRI and

4 other associations, where they have their test

5 procedures for products, or NEMA has their test

6 procedures for motors, for example, DOE has used

7 the trade association test procedure as a template

8 for the DOE test procedure.

9 Sometimes, they adopt it wholesale.

10 It's like, "This looks fine to us. This looks

11 good to us." If it's sampling or if it's tested,

12 et cetera. Other times it might be tweaked. It

13 depends on how it goes.

14 But for the most part -- again, again,

15 this is just from what I've seen, it seems like

16 for the most part, DOE has been really good about

17 adopting a consensus or trade association test

18 procedure that's been proven to work in the

19 marketplace that shows the efficiency of a

20 product.

21 So, again, if some of that is in HI

22 40.6, that is a template that I would guess DOE
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1 would start with for their test procedure.

2 MR. BROOKMAN: Lucas, do you want to

3 follow on?

4 MR. ADIN: Well, I mean, I don't know if

5 I want to characterize specifically how closely we

6 intend to align with -- I mean, I think in

7 general, what Steve said is correct. We do, to

8 the extent possible, consider what industry

9 regards as the most appropriate way to test their

10 products because in many cases they know a lot

11 more about them and their variability and all

12 those things that we might -- so those things do

13 matter, and we consider them in the rulemaking

14 process.

15 So we'll be relying on that to a large

16 extent as we consider these products, too. So

17 whatever the manufacturers have to provide about

18 how they do things now will be very important.

19 MR. BROOKMAN: Gary, and then back to

20 Charlie.

21 MR. FERSTROM: This is Gary.

22 I think this whole process is targeted
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1 at products you're mass-producing or producing in

2 significant volume. If you only make one of them,

3 there may be some alternative to testing two

4 products.

5 But the presumption is that where we

6 have these extended products, you're probably

7 going to be making a fair number of pumps, motors,

8 and drives that are sold as an integrated unit and

9 extended product. And the burden of testing two of

10 them ought not to be too onerous because you're

11 making a bunch of them.

12 And in your own manufacturing quality

13 control or quality assurance process, you alluded

14 to that. You test some of these things just to

15 make sure that the castings haven't worn and

16 performance deteriorated.

17 MR. BROOKMAN: Mark, you want to follow

18 on?

19 MR. HANDZEL: Yeah. Mark Handzel from

20 Xylem.

21 So, Gary, I mean, certainly when you get

22 up into the bigger ranges of some of our lines,
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1 particularly those listed in the building side of

2 the business, you know, we may only make a handful

3 of those bigger models in a year, selling them one

4 at a time or two at a time, that type of thing.

5 And I guess our concern is just that, in

6 testing PER VL, if we're only selling one, we

7 don't want to have to certify -- use a sample size

8 method of two to come up with the test value.

9 That's the bottom line. We don't want to buy a

10 200-horsepower variable speed drive that we're not

11 going to sell.

12 MR. FERSTROM: So, this is Gary.

13 The perspective on this that I wanted to

14 raise is there's got to be some allowance made for

15 products that are made in very small quantities.

16 Conversely, where you're making a significant

17 quantity of these products, it shouldn't be that

18 bad.

19 MR. BROOKMAN: Charlie Cappellino.

20 MR. CAPPELLINO: Just to follow on,

21 Charlie Cappellino.

22 So, Al, what I was trying to understand
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1 is, you could potentially, I think, qualify the

2 product by testing the bare pump and then doing a

3 calculation for the unit to meet the regulation.

4 I guess your question, I think, was really more,

5 if you wanted to put a different label on the

6 product -- it's more of a labeling, question

7 around labeling as opposed to the actual pass/fail

8 of the product.

9 MR. HUBER: It's a marketing

10 consideration, Charlie.

11 MR. CAPPELLINO: Right, right.

12 MR. HUBER: And I think that all of us

13 are going to leave this, or the industry is going

14 to leave this room trying to come up with the most

15 efficient products they can come up with so they

16 can go to the marketplace and tout that. And I

17 think that -- so I think we're going to want to

18 test.

19 But, you know, having to buy these large

20 VFD's or these large VSD's are not inexpensive.

21 And buying two of them is onerous. And what we're

22 going to end up with is just whatever the standard
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1 calculation is going to be because nobody is going

2 to want to go to the expense of doing that.

3 MR. BROOKMAN: Charlie, follow on.

4 MR. HUBER: And I don't really think

5 that's good for the public. I really don't think

6 that's what you want to do. But I can tell you

7 the industry can't afford to do the other.

8 MR. CAPPELLINO: So a question for

9 Lucas, I guess. This is Charlie.

10 I presume this is the case. But is the

11 sampling and the rules apply not only to pass/fail

12 around the minimum efficiency requirement, but

13 also for whatever labeling you put on the product?

14 MR. ADIN: Yes. So, sampling is

15 applicable to -- it accomplishes two things. It

16 ensures that the basic model that you're

17 certifying is compliant with the standard. And it

18 ensures that the rating you put on it is

19 representative of the population of units on the

20 market.

21 And I put up an example of one of the

22 sampling plans. I just used refrigerators as an
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1 example. It's representative of most of the other

2 products that we regulate. But basically what

3 this is is, it says a few things. Number one, it

4 says at the top, "The requirements of 429.11."

5 That just means a sample of at least two. That's

6 what it says in that section.

7 The rest explains essentially how to get

8 the certified rating for that particular basic

9 model, based on the tests that you did. So, for

10 this particular product for the value of annual

11 energy consumption, it has to be greater than or

12 equal to the mean of the sample, or that B item,

13 which is the upper 95 percent confidence limit of

14 the true mean divided by 1.1.

15 And what that does is essentially

16 ensures that, based on the sample of units you've

17 tested, the rating is, for lack of a better term,

18 it's conservative based upon the likely

19 variability among units out in the marketplace.

20 And it's designed to protect the consumer,

21 essentially, to ensure that the consumer is

22 getting something that is at least as good as what
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1 you've determined through your tests.

2 MR. BROOKMAN: Louis is next.

3 MR. STARR: So, maybe this question will

4 help inform the sampling plan. So, if let's say I

5 worked in American Water and I was going to buy a

6 bunch of pumps. And so I looked down there, and I

7 said I can see that the calculated PER value --

8 I'm going to use variable speed on these pumps.

9 And so I know that a calculated value will get me

10 a PEI of 45 or whatever the number comes out to

11 be.

12 And I'm thinking I would actually like

13 something better that's really been tested so I

14 actually know, maybe. I'll specify 40. So

15 therefore, already, you can't do the calculated

16 one to meet my specification.

17 So now I've ordered five pumps,

18 different pumps, different sizes across their --

19 now, how is the various pump, pump needs going to

20 -- if I'm ordering those pumps, are you going to

21 test each one of them? Or how are you going to

22 meet my specification?
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1 MR. BROOKMAN: Al Huber.

2 MR. HUBER: It depends on what he

3 orders. I mean, if he specifies that he wants a

4 test for each one, then each one will be tested.

5 MALE VOICE: If he pays for it.

6 MR. HUBER: And he pays for it, because

7 testing is not inexpensive.

8 Here's the problem. If he asked me for

9 that and I do it and I label it, am I required to

10 do two and turn it in to these guys to have it

11 listed?

12 MR. STARR: Typically less than a

13 certain quantity. You only have to do one, and

14 there's even less that you won't have to do them.

15 But I'm just thinking about from a customer and

16 they're not -- if you're all bidding on them, I'm

17 not going to pay for three separate tests, right?

18 I mean, I would just say you meet the

19 requirements, so you would have to give a price.

20 And whatever your price, if your price included

21 testing, then it would have to be in your price

22 and you may or may not get it.
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1 So is that -- so basically, to meet the

2 values you're going -- or to meet those values,

3 it's going to be a more expensive pump.

4 MR. HUBER: It certainly is going to be

5 more expensive. And some customers choose to do

6 that. And that's not an issue. The industry has

7 no problem with that.

8 The point we were trying to make earlier

9 is that we're going to test two pumps, okay? And

10 we would use those same two pumps and run them

11 with one VFD and really run two tests, but with

12 one VFD so that we don't have to buy two VFD's.

13 That's what we would like to see so that we don't

14 have to go to that expense, because it's going to

15 be expensive.

16 Some of us are looking at the

17 possibility of testing in order to get to the

18 marketplace with a better product. And I think

19 the customers would be served with that. But we

20 will not do it if we've got to buy two. We're

21 just not going to do it.

22 MR. BROOKMAN: Steve.
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1 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Steve Rosenstock.

2 Yeah, I want to thank Lucas for putting

3 that up. I'm just kind of -- again, not off the

4 top of my head. But it might be interesting to

5 see what's done for the large motors, because DOE

6 regulates motor size from one to 500 horsepower.

7 Obviously, the number of 500-horsepower motors

8 sold per year is pretty small, and we're up to

9 200.

10 But there might be something in that

11 test procedure that might be analogous in terms of

12 how to handle various small-volume products.

13 Again, I haven't memorized it. But that might be

14 another reference point for people to look at.

15 MR. HUBER: Al Huber, Patterson.

16 The difference between us and the motors

17 or us and the refrigerators is we don't

18 manufacture the VFD's. We have to go out and

19 purchase them. And so, it's totally different

20 ballgame here. So that's the reason I asked that

21 and hopefully, you folks will consider it. We're

22 not trying to get out of doing anything. We're
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1 just trying to make it so it's not so onerous that

2 nobody will do it.

3 MR. BROOKMAN: Lucas Adin.

4 MR. ADIN: Your point is understood

5 completely. And all these things are factors that

6 we will consider when we're trying to determine

7 the appropriate way to treat these products. I

8 don't want to give any impression that we've

9 already decided. I'm just explaining the way we

10 do it for other products and the considerations

11 that we use and figuring out the best way. So.

12 MR. BROOKMAN: I think in this

13 discussion this morning, we've uncovered a lot of

14 the salient issues here.

15 Mark Handzel.

16 MR. HANDZEL: Mark Handzel from Xylem.

17 So, I guess, you know, just like

18 everything we did yesterday, should we be creating

19 a recommendation to pass along to represent this?

20 Just because, obviously, we have some strong

21 feelings on it, and you know, we don't want to be

22 -- we want you to be informed so that you make the
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1 right decision.

2 MR. ADIN: I mean, I think that's

3 dependent on what you all feel comfortable with.

4 I mean, I -- my personal feeling is that it's

5 probably a little premature to make a specific

6 recommendation. It might be more helpful once

7 we've provided a little bit more information about

8 what we're looking for and how we make these

9 decisions and exactly what we need to know to

10 establish what's appropriate for pumps.

11 MR. HANDZEL: So, just to follow on

12 Lucas -- Mark Handzel again.

13 So, I guess that's kind of -- you know,

14 we've kind of been, at least I've kind of been led

15 along believing that for the next six months, DOE

16 is going dark on this subject. So I guess I'd

17 just ask, is that correct? Or are we going to

18 still have a dialog, even though we're not

19 formally meeting? Is there input before you get

20 to a NOPR stage?, I guess is my question.

21 MR. ADIN: There can be. I mean, it

22 won't be quite as open and organic, in a way, as
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1 this group has been. I mean, once we're finished

2 and we submit the term sheet, this is a little bit

3 of an unusual -- not unusual, but I mean, it's

4 different than what we normally do with a

5 rulemaking. The normal rulemaking process is -- I

6 don't necessarily like to characterize it as

7 "going dark."

8 (Laughter.)

9 MR. ADIN: But I mean, it is -- there

10 are periods during which DOE is doing its thing

11 and we open it up and you tell us what you think.

12 So, but there are other ways in which we can

13 collect information from you all, I mean,

14 especially if we have the sense that there are

15 things that we need to know to inform our

16 decisions.

17 I mean, we can do something like a

18 Request for Information, an RFI, you know, if we

19 want to be absolutely sure that whatever proposal

20 we make is best informed by the interested

21 stakeholders, that it can be. Then that's

22 something that we would do.
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1 And it's sounding like that might be a

2 useful option for us is to collect some more

3 detailed information, give you a chance to think

4 about it, and give us some more detailed feedback

5 before we put together a specific proposal.

6 MR. BROOKMAN: Lucas, will you be

7 involved in creating the test procedure?

8 MR. ADIN: Yes.

9 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. I was just

10 wondering.

11 MR. ADIN: Test procedure and the

12 certification and compliance, which may or may not

13 be done together, as Ashley pointed out.

14 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. So we know that

15 he's heard what you have to say, at a minimum,

16 right? So that's a start.

17 Okay. Additional comments here? I

18 think we've uncovered a lot of important issues,

19 and I'm glad we've had this conversation.

20 Bob Barbour, you raised the issue of

21 sampling size. Were there other issues in this

22 vein that you're -- you're okay. Okay. Okay.
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1 So then, let's turn to a discussion of

2 the term sheet.

3 And Lucas, thank you for pulling up that

4 sampling document.

5 (Pause.)

6 MR. BROOKMAN: One thing that I was

7 unclear about -- and maybe this is directed to

8 you, Lucas -- the Department of Energy hasn't done

9 an awful lot of these negotiated rulemakings. So

10 I think the form of them and the products

11 continues to unfold.

12 I believe you said that a term sheet

13 would specifically have a preamble?

14 MR. ADIN: Well, I mean, when I said

15 preamble, I just mean things other than the

16 recommendations themselves.

17 MR. BROOKMAN: I see. So this

18 background piece at the beginning could be

19 something like a preamble?

20 MR. ADIN: Right.

21 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. As you look at

22 this, and I think all of you have -- I'm hoping
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1 that all of you have -- I think what you'll find

2 is that this is just a restatement of all of the

3 work that we have done in the span of these six4 plus months, with quite a bit of attention to

5 detail, and the actual votes that we took to

6 confirm the sense of the working group to obtain

7 consensus on these various recommendations.

8 So, and Al, you raised an issue this

9 morning with me. And I'm intending to go through

10 this recommendation by recommendation, page by

11 page, just to make sure that we're all

12 comfortable. What we said at the very beginning

13 of this negotiation was all agreements are

14 provisional until we make a final agreement and

15 accept all of the previous agreements. So that's

16 what we're intending to do now.

17 MR. HUBER: Al Huber, Patterson.

18 Yes, they're going to make a -- they're

19 going to make some word changes, and I think it

20 will probably be under test procedure and metric.

21 Is that correct, Alison?

22 MS. WILLIAMS: Yes. I have an edit for
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1 recommendation 11 we should go through at some

2 point. But I don't know. Do you guys want to go

3 through this in order?

4 MR. HUBER: Yeah, I think we should.

5 MS. WILLIAMS: Okay. Yeah.

6 (Cross-talk.)

7 MR. HUBER: We're going to take care of

8 it there.

9 MR. BROOKMAN: Yeah. We'll start on

10 page 1. And I know we have folks that will be --

11 have the capacity to do edits as we go along, if

12 that's needed.

13 The first couple of paragraphs just

14 provide background information and describe that

15 we met on the following dates, and that we have

16 obtained consensus to offer the following

17 recommendations. I don't think there's anything

18 so awfully controversial about that. But I'll take

19 comments if there are any on that.

20 Okay. Well, then we're moving on to

21 definition of covered product. Recommendation

22 number one. I'll let you read it.
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1 (Pause.)

2 MR. BROOKMAN: We had -- my recollection

3 of this definition was that the group came to

4 understand that it was beneficial for the larger

5 frame of pumps, not just this pumps working group,

6 to have a broad definition. And we spent

7 considerable time coming to these words. And so,

8 I wonder if we would have any additional thoughts

9 on this before we -- we've already obtained a

10 consensus vote you see there.

11 (Pause.)

12 MR. BROOKMAN: I can't tell whether

13 you're jumping ahead or whether you're staying

14 with me, Al.

15 (Inaudible conversation.)

16 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Okay. So,

17 everybody is okay? Because I'm just going to keep

18 moving us along here until people pipe up. Here

19 we go.

20 So we're okay with the pump definition.

21 Now we're going to recommendation number two.

22 "The components of a pump will be defined as
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1 below." And we also had a fair amount of

2 discussion to enumerate these terms -- bare pump,

3 mechanical equipment, driver, and controls. And

4 these, of course, are very important as you think

5 about the different configurations.

6 (Pause.)

7 MR. BROOKMAN: So, are we ready to move

8 on, then?

9 Okay. Yes. Okay. We're moving on to

10 recommendation number three, which says, "In this

11 rulemaking, the metric will not cover non-electric

12 drivers. The test procedure will specify that the

13 bare pump rating calculations for the energy

14 conservation standard also apply to pumps with

15 non-electric drivers" -- that second sentence,

16 quite important. The first sentence about the

17 understanding that we achieved here in the working

18 group.

19 (Pause.)

20 MR. BROOKMAN: Comments about this?

21 Steve Rosenstock.

22 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Steve Rosenstock.
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1 Yeah, no comments now. But this will

2 come up in the -- when we look at recommendation

3 11 again.

4 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay.

5 MR. ROSENSTOCK: But this is fine now.

6 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Thank you.

7 So then, I'm moving on. We've accepted

8 recommendation number three.

9 In-scope and out-of-scope pumps,

10 recommendation number four. You recall we spent

11 at least three meetings with a very detailed

12 discussion on which scope -- which pumps should be

13 in-scope and out- of-scope. And we, after all of

14 that time and effort -- and I thought it was very

15 productive; I didn't think it was a waste of time

16 at all -- we arrived at these five pump types, end

17 suction frame mounted, own bearings, ESFM/OH0 and

18 OH1; end suction close coupled, ESCC/OH7; inline;

19 radial split multi-stage vertical.

20 Since we have this document, I'm not

21 going to read the characterizations in parens.

22 Maybe I should.
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1 (Inaudible interjection.)

2 MR. BROOKMAN: You don't think we need

3 to? Okay. Good.

4 (Laughter.)

5 MR. BROOKMAN: I'm trying to be complete

6 here. Vertical turbine submersible being the last

7 of the five. Those are the ones we arrived at.

8 And we, again, obtained a consensus on that with

9 one abstention. So, that's been the basis for all

10 the analysis and the metrics and all of the work

11 we've done have proceeded from those five pump

12 types.

13 So, Steve Rosenstock?

14 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Steve Rosenstock.

15 Yeah, just a very quick one for the

16 people on the ASRAC who might be looking at this

17 for the first time, didn't know if you wanted to

18 add a sentence about any explanation for the

19 parentheses or not. It's not necessary; it just

20 in terms of, for people seeing it, there might be

21 a question, what do these mean? And so that's why

22 if you wanted to add just an explanation note as a
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1 background or something for the --

2 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Okay.

3 Lucas?

4 MR. ADIN: Yeah. We can put in a

5 footnote like we did in a few other places.

6 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Footnote or something -

7 -

8 MR. BROOKMAN: I think it's useful. I

9 think it's useful.

10 MR. ROSENSTOCK: -- just to help the

11 other people looking at it.

12 MR. BROOKMAN: Yeah. Okay. Good.

13 So then, now I'm moving on to

14 recommendation number five. Circulators and

15 dedicated purpose pool pumps will be held for

16 additional ASRAC approved negotiation that was a

17 part of the joint proposal that was voted on and

18 approved by the working group.

19 And then the explanatory bullets --

20 target date is term sheet for second negotiation

21 by end of this year subject to DOE capacity, begin

22 immediately following this negotiation. That was
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1 before we had the conversation at the end of the

2 day yesterday.

3 So, that's why that note is there

4 highlighted in yellow, "to be refined with future

5 discussion, 6/19." So I was wondering what we

6 should say surrounding this point. Because I

7 wrote down the actual proposal. That is, I made

8 short notes myself. But does someone want to

9 characterize?

10 Tom, you want to start -- get us --

11 MR. HANDZEL: Could I just say something

12 first -- I'm sorry -- before we get in the bigger

13 discussion?

14 MR. BROOKMAN: Sure.

15 MR. HANDZEL: Could we put in the HI

16 product categories for circulators, CP 1, 2, and

17 3, just so it matches the description up above?

18 MR. BROOKMAN: Yeah. That's good.

19 MR. HANDZEL: I think it would be good -

20 - yeah.

21 MR. BROOKMAN: That's good. That's a

22 good addition.
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1 MR. HANDZEL: Because we have that

2 definition. So we should --

3 MALE VOICE: Perfect.

4 MR. BROOKMAN: CP 1, 2, and 3?

5 MR. POTTS: I also had a comment that

6 when we list the definitions, just to explain that

7 they are HI definitions.

8 MR. BROOKMAN: Thank you.

9 MR. POTTS: So that's the source of

10 nomenclature.

11 MS. WILLIAMS: Oh, do you want something

12 different? Oh, okay.

13 MR. BROOKMAN: That's good. Thank you,

14 Alison.

15 And what do dedicated purpose pool pumps

16 have?

17 (Inaudible conversation.)

18 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. They do not.

19 Okay.

20 So, Tom, do you want to characterize

21 what we might say in this segment?

22 (Laughter.)
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1 MR. ECKMAN: Well, I'll try. And I'll

2 stand corrected if I overstep, Al. I think the

3 intent is to, probably more informally than an

4 ASRAC negotiation. So it's probably an informal

5 negotiation between our caucus and your caucus on

6 where, what the route to circulators is.

7 And a first step in that would be to

8 present them with a proposal that they could take

9 to HI and the circulator committee and whoever

10 else you need to talk to.

11 And what I think we heard was by October

12 you'd have some response back to us after the

13 October meeting, depending on where that -- we'd

14 either have back-and-forth after that, or we'd go

15 somewhere. So at least initially, we'd get some

16 turnaround by October.

17 So that would mean end of year you'd

18 have -- February meeting you said it was the

19 second backup to that. So.

20 MR. HUBER: Yeah. Well, that's probably

21 what we're going to have to have. We're probably

22 going to have to have two meetings, because you're
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1 going to come with something. We're going to come

2 back. We may have to invite you to one of our --

3 this group in advance of the February meeting and

4 maybe have a short meeting amongst our group and

5 yours to finalize it.

6 That's what we're thinking. So probably

7 -- I mean, if you want it right now, it says the

8 term sheet by the end of the year. So I would say

9 term sheet by the end of March or the end of

10 April, somewhere in there would probably be more

11 accurate. I mean, if you're trying to be

12 accurate.

13 MR. ECKMAN: Yeah. Yeah.

14 MR. HUBER: But I don't know if you can

15 call it a term sheet. I don't know if you've got

16 to invoke a ASRAC committee in order to do that or

17 whatever. I don't know how you do that. We don't

18 know.

19 MR. ADIN: So if you're considering

20 doing what I think you're considering doing up

21 here, it's been done for other products. But

22 essentially, if you all, without DOE, are
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1 considering meeting together separately and coming

2 up with your own proposal for the department

3 that's outside of the ASRAC process, you're

4 essentially coming up with your own proposal to

5 present separately --

6 MR. HANDZEL: Coming to you with a

7 recommendation.

8 MR. ADIN: To come to the department.

9 The department's not involved in that kind of --

10 MR. HUBER: So, therefore, we would

11 probably need to remove this, because what it --

12 we've got to change it. Because what it says in

13 the additional ASRAC approved negotiations.

14 MS. WILLIAMS: So, I'm making edits up

15 here. So do you want to see if I'm going on the

16 right track, or --

17 MR. HUBER: No, I don't want you to edit

18 until they agree.

19 MS. WILLIAMS: It's in track. So it's

20 all changeable. Yeah. No problem.

21 (Cross-talk.)

22 MR. GRAFFAM: Hang on just one second.
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1 MS. WILLIAMS: Oh, sorry.

2 MR. BROOKMAN: Can we go ahead? Because

3 you're the one that wanted to -- that I think

4 specified ASRAC as the vehicle for another

5 negotiation.

6 MR. FERSTROM: Go ahead, Al. This is

7 Gary.

8 MR. HUBER: Okay. Yeah. We have a

9 question for Lucas. Since we don't have the

10 assets at our disposal that he does, neither the

11 NGO's nor us, we need to be -- we're probably

12 going to have to rely on the DOE to help us with

13 this. So I don't know. We may have to go back to

14 an ASRAC. But it would probably be after the

15 February meeting, and then we could commence one

16 if you wanted to.

17 MR. HANDZEL: Yeah. I guess the

18 question is we may need those to get to --

19 MR. HUBER: And it would already be done

20 except for the analysis and the other things.

21 MR. ECKMAN: Yeah. Do we need that

22 support to get to closure? Or can we get to
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1 closure --

2 MR. HUBER: We probably will, don't you

3 think?

4 MALE VOICE: I don't know.

5 MR. BROOKMAN: To get to closure as

6 opposed to getting things underway? Is that the

7 point you're making?

8 (Chorus of "Yeah.")

9 MR. HUBER: Yeah. We're going to do

10 what we do just to get things underway so that you

11 don't take so many meetings. It might only

12 involve one or two meetings or something like

13 that. And then you can dispense --

14 MR. HANDZEL: Mark Handzel.

15 Just, I mean, Lucas, if we reached an

16 agreement formally and come to you with a

17 recommendation, would the DOE still do an economic

18 analysis on their own?

19 MR. ADIN: Yes.

20 MALE VOICE: Yeah, they'd have to do

21 that.

22 (Simultaneous conversation.)
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1 MR. FERSTROM: So, this is Gary.

2 You're all getting to the concern that I

3 have. We're utilizing the concept where we would

4 get together informally to come up with the

5 generalized recommendation. However, DOE still

6 needs to do their analysis, hopefully to support

7 that. And there are probably going to be a lot of

8 issues related to that analysis, as there are with

9 this analysis.

10 So, ideally, if we're going to proceed

11 informally, as perhaps with the fans work, we

12 might have DOE's commitment to allow their

13 analysts to participate.

14 MR. BROOKMAN: Let's let Lucas respond.

15 MR. ADIN: I think we briefly addressed

16 this yesterday. And previous proceedings like

17 that, I believe we have provided support of that

18 nature. It's just a lot more constrained than it

19 would be in this kind of setting. So, I mean, we

20 would just have to, you know, ensure that it's

21 just strictly analytical support based on whatever

22 information you've provided us.
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1 MR. FERSTROM: This is Gary.

2 You mean constrained with respect to the

3 extent that we don't address policy, we just

4 address the analytical factors?

5 MR. ADIN: That's my understanding.

6 Right.

7 MR. FERSTROM: Okay.

8 MR. ADIN: So the department wouldn't be

9 providing any views about whatever it is that

10 you're discussing, you know, beyond pure

11 analytical support. Right.

12 MR. FERSTROM: Thank you for that

13 clarification. So, I'd like to see the term sheet

14 stipulate two things. One, that we'll get

15 together informally and come up with a proposal.

16 And that we would have some support from DOE's --

17 technical support from DOE's consultants to --

18 what's the terminology I want to use? --

19 facilitate the technical analysis that would

20 support the decision.

21 MR. BROOKMAN: I'm going to let Louis go

22 first and then I'm following on with Al.
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1 MR. STARR: So, you know, one of the

2 things my thought was is that this development of

3 40.6, which we're working -- or, not development,

4 but the add-ons to 40.6. And so it's really the

5 modification of that test procedure to work with

6 circulators. And so really, it's the technical

7 support to do that that's part of it.

8 It's also, I think what Sarah has been

9 working with a little bit with HI on 40.6 are some

10 of their meetings where she attends the meetings,

11 and it sounds like those have been pretty

12 productive in general. So if you think about them

13 on the resources that are being exercised and what

14 the value is, I think HI probably sees a lot of

15 value, it seems like you can pick up some energy

16 savings pretty cheap.

17 I think a lot of it -- the primary

18 support is Sarah continuing on the work she's

19 doing now. And the other part about, by her doing

20 that, it kind of provides an unbiased -- well, to

21 some extent.

22 MR. BROOKMAN: I think Lucas is
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1 sympathetic. I imagine DOE is entirely

2 sympathetic. And then they're also concerned

3 about the workload and how it all parses out and

4 all that sort of thing.

5 Al Huber, and then I'm coming back to

6 you, Steve.

7 MR. HUBER: One of the things that our

8 group thinks might work, and I don't know, I think

9 your group would go along with this, that we leave

10 the request for an ASRAC working group in there,

11 but change it from the end of the year to March.

12 And in the meantime, we come up with an informal

13 basis. And then it will just shorten the time

14 that the ASRAC group has to meet.

15 And that way, you get all the support,

16 you get everything. And we all get just like

17 we've done here, and formalize it and get the

18 analysis. And I think maybe that would work

19 better.

20 MR. ECKMAN: Yeah. I don't think we're

21 opposed to doing something like that to get it --

22 MR. HUBER: We're not opposed to saying
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1 we'll proceed informally.

2 MR. ECKMAN: We'll put a bullet in the

3 way Gary's suggesting it.

4 MR. HUBER: Between now and March.

5 MR. ECKMAN: And then commence formal

6 ASRAC- sanctioned things.

7 MR. HUBER: Exactly. Exactly.

8 MR. BROOKMAN: Because this framework

9 has worked rather well, and you anticipate that

10 support will be needed. And ultimately, whether

11 it's ASRAC -- ASRAC would provide a vehicle to

12 accomplish all that you intend to accomplish.

13 Steve Rosenstock.

14 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Steve Rosenstock.

15 Just a thought. Because, you know,

16 ASRAC, the nice thing about ASRAC is that anyone

17 can apply to it. And you can have a wide variety

18 of viewpoints at the table.

19 What's written up there now says

20 manufacturers and advocates, period. And other

21 parties that might be interested seem to be left

22 out of the process. So I'm a little uncomfortable
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1 with that. I'd be more comfortable saying,

2 "between interested parties" or "interested

3 stakeholders" because that way you're not being

4 exclusive to other interested parties.

5 MR. BROOKMAN: And let's simply include

6 "and other" -- yeah. "And other parties."

7 (Pause.)

8 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Steve Rosenstock.

9 Yeah, that's fine, too.

10 MR. BROOKMAN: Yeah. Good. Thank you.

11 Okay.

12 So, let's look at this language because

13 we're about to approve what's up here. And it

14 reads,

15 "Recommendation number five: Circulators

16 and a list of circulator types CP 1, 2, and 3.

17 And dedicated purpose pool pumps will be held for

18 additional informal negotiation between

19 manufacturers, efficiency advocates, and other

20 interested parties; advocates to make an initial

21 proposal and manufacturers to respond with a goal

22 of October.
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1 "Stakeholders aim to present a joint

2 proposal to DOE by March, April 2015.

3 Stakeholders request DOE commitment for technical

4 support from consultants to facilitate analysis."

5 And then the sub-bullet, "ASRAC approved

6 negotiation to begin in March following a joint

7 proposal."

8 And I think that captures the bulk of

9 it.

10 Bob.

11 MR. BARBOUR: Bob Barbour from Taco.

12 I don't think we have to talk about pool

13 pumps. I think virtually the scope of what this

14 discussion has been on has been circulators, not

15 pool pumps. I think pool pumps is sort of a

16 separate category. None of us sitting at this

17 table are pool pump people.

18 MR. ECKMAN: Yeah. I think we were

19 going to do a second recommendation that we would

20 recommend that DOE undertake a rulemaking on pool

21 pumps separate from the circulators.

22 MR. HUBER: We said that -- so --
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1 MR. ECKMAN: So it would be a separate

2 recommendation. I agree.

3 MR. HUBER: Al Huber, Patterson.

4 It's our understanding, you know, we're

5 trying to move these circulators down the line a

6 little quicker. When the ASRAC committee meets

7 again in March or whatever, hopefully there will

8 be some pool pump people. And we're going to make

9 an effort to try to get some pool pump people

10 involved. So, at that point, you'd take up the

11 pool pumps. I mean, I don't know what else you'd

12 do.

13 MR. BROOKMAN: Tom, what would you

14 suggest that the record reflect with respect to

15 pool pumps?

16 MR. ECKMAN: I think we probably need to

17 caucus for about five minutes so we can figure out

18 where we are.

19 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay.

20 (Laughter.)

21 MR. ECKMAN: Because I haven't had a

22 chance to talk to them. I don't want to speak for
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1 everybody that I haven't talked to.

2 (Laughter.)

3 MR. BROOKMAN: I'd like to keep going

4 through this.

5 MR. ECKMAN: Yeah.

6 MR. BROOKMAN: And then at the break,

7 you can caucus.

8 MR. ECKMAN: That's fine.

9 MR. BROOKMAN: Yeah.

10 MR. ECKMAN: I think we're close there.

11 It's just that it's a timing question.

12 MR. BROOKMAN: I'm going to put a big

13 old star next to this.

14 MR. ECKMAN: And this is probably a

15 question for Lucas and the technical staff, is,

16 you know, if we are envisioning a timeline that

17 gets us to an ASRAC formal negotiation in March,

18 what analysis would we want to have before then to

19 get to closure on our part?

20 I mean, you guys need to think about

21 what you'd like to see and whether that's doable

22 in that time frame by DOE. Because I don't want
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1 to create false expectations that we're going to

2 get there and your guys are saying, "Well, wait,

3 till we see this we're not going anywhere." So.

4 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay.

5 MR. ECKMAN: You guys can talk about it

6 over break.

7 MR. BROOKMAN: I'm thinking that we have

8 the language, the words with respect to circulator

9 problems largely in place. We're going to have to

10 come up with some additional verbiage for pool

11 pumps.

12 And now we're going to move on. We're

13 going to keep going through this. Now we're on

14 recommendation number six.

15 MS. WALTNER: Doug?

16 MR. BROOKMAN: Yes?

17 MS. WALTNER: Can you hear me?

18 MR. BROOKMAN: Yes, I can.

19 MS. WALTNER: Sorry. I've had my hand

20 raised for awhile. This is Meg.

21 MR. BROOKMAN: Oh, Meg. I'm sorry.

22 (Laughter.)
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1 MR. BROOKMAN: We missed it over here.

2 Please join in here.

3 MS. WALTNER: Yeah. So, I would still

4 like to see a projected NOPR date included as well

5 for circulators even if we are also including the

6 language around the ASRAC negotiation in March.

7 So, yesterday I suggested July. I don't know if

8 that's feasible now that we're targeting March for

9 ASRAC. But look for feedback from others on that.

10 MR. BROOKMAN: You wish to have a

11 projected NOPR date because you think that would

12 suggest --

13 MS. WALTNER: So, I think that gives us

14 clear target for when we would get a NOPR in final

15 or similar to what we had driving us in these

16 negotiations.

17 MR. BROOKMAN: I see.

18 MS. WALTNER: And I also, I guess I -- I

19 don't oppose including the language on ASRAC

20 committee, but I think it's also a possibility

21 that we'd be able to come to an agreement on our

22 own without me needing to have that second ASRAC
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1 committee. And we would just provide a

2 recommendation to DOE that would feed into a NOPR.

3 MR. BROOKMAN: You're not in the room,

4 Meg. Several of the manufacturers are shaking

5 their head. They think some sort of ASRAC function

6 will be needed if -- to provide the necessary

7 analytic support to generally codify all of this.

8 At least, that's what their body

9 language suggests.

10 MR. ADIN: Well, Doug, just to provide a

11 clarification here. I'm Lucas Adin. I'm waiting

12 for a little clarification myself.

13 But I don't know that you necessarily

14 have to use the ASRAC process just to get the

15 analytical support that you want. I mean, the

16 additional advantage of going through the ASRAC

17 process is that you get direct feedback policy18 wise from the department on what it is that you're

19 considering.

20 You wouldn't get that if you did your

21 own negotiation, but I think we can at least

22 provide basic -- we can crunch the numbers for you
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1 and do the economic analysis and that kind of

2 thing. We just wouldn't be able to like make

3 assumptions for you or -- you'd have to give us

4 all the information and we'd run the numbers and

5 see how it looks.

6 I think that's how it would work, but

7 I'm waiting for some confirmation on that. So if

8 you want more than that, if you want real feedback

9 from the department on how we view things, that's

10 when we'd have to go into more of an ASRAC-type

11 negotiation process.

12 MR. BROOKMAN: Al Huber.

13 MR. HUBER: I think the manufacturers

14 would feel more comfortable getting the feedback

15 from DOE. I mean, that way we know that what

16 we're doing has some possibility of being accepted

17 in the end.

18 MR. BROOKMAN: So what do ya'll --

19 MR. HUBER: I'm not trying to make this

20 complicated. We just want to -- we want to try to

21 make it as smooth and as quick as possible.

22 That's why we've agreed to this, you know, up-
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1 front --

2 MR. BROOKMAN: We'll call this a hybrid

3 approach.

4 MR. HUBER: Well, yeah.

5 (Laughter.)

6 MR. HUBER: I think it will get away --

7 it will move some of the things out of the way so

8 that the group can move forward quickly. That's

9 all I'm saying.

10 MR. BROOKMAN: Yeah. Okay.

11 MR. HUBER: That's all this informal

12 thing was intended to do. We weren't intended to

13 do away with the ASRAC.

14 MR. BROOKMAN: Right. Okay. So what

15 are you thinking about Meg's suggestion that we

16 establish a target date for a NOPR?

17 (Laughter.)

18 (Inaudible conversation.)

19 MALE VOICE: It's okay with us.

20 MS. WILLIAMS: So, on the NOPR date,

21 just if you want to set one, July 2015 is not

22 technically feasible because then NOPR has to go
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1 through a OIRA review, which is a 90-day process.

2 So ASRAC doesn't start till March, you basically

3 can't -- right -- I guess you could if you

4 finished in April, possibly. But.

5 MR. BROOKMAN: So, Meg, I'm intuiting

6 folks would like to see this proceed to the NOPR

7 stage, but I don't know about the timing.

8 MS. WALTNER: Do any other advocates

9 have any thoughts on timing?

10 MR. BROOKMAN: Tom Eckman.

11 MS. WALTNER: Or others?

12 MR. ECKMAN: Well, the sooner the

13 better. But I think everybody in the room would

14 like that. It's just --

15 MR. BROOKMAN: The hoops.

16 MR. ECKMAN: The hoops and the physical

17 requirements of getting the analysis done and

18 everything written up and passed through all the

19 internal, you know, October 1, September 30, is

20 that -- I mean, I'm looking to the DOE and

21 technical staff to say whether the paperwork can

22 be filed within that time frame.
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1 If we had by no later than March, but

2 maybe even before then, if we had an agreement on

3 what the term sheet would look like, could the

4 paperwork be completed by x date? That's the

5 question.

6 MR. BROOKMAN: Yeah, by September7 October.

8 MR. ECKMAN: Or by September, October,

9 instead of --

10 MR. BROOKMAN: Lucas Adin.

11 MR. ADIN: I mean, you have the

12 circulator date, and now you don't have anything

13 on pool pumps. That's my concern.

14 MR. BROOKMAN: Right. Right. Yeah.

15 That's taking that into consideration, that might

16 make it a little more challenging.

17 MR. ECKMAN: If that was a circulator

18 NOPR only, not a pool pumps NOPR, could you make

19 it sooner rather than later?

20 MR. BROOKMAN: So based on --

21 MR. ECKMAN: I don't want to drag

22 everything down by --
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1 MR. BROOKMAN: Right.

2 MR. ECKMAN: If the pool pumps could be

3 a completely separate rulemaking than the

4 circulators in our minds --

5 MR. BROOKMAN: Yeah. Right.

6 MR. ECKMAN: It needs to happen, but it

7 doesn't have to be together.

8 MR. ADIN: Right. Yeah. So I mean,

9 based on what we're talking about here, where if

10 you all had done, you know, some negotiation

11 beforehand and we had already had the benefit of

12 some analysis going into that process, so we have

13 a more wholly formed proposal from the start,

14 then, yeah. I mean, I'd personally be a lot more

15 optimistic about that being realistic.

16 MR. ECKMAN: September-October.

17 MR. ADIN: Yeah. Yeah.

18 MR. BROOKMAN: Meg, what about that for

19 your -- if we can get it done by the end of fiscal

20 year? Is that possible?

21 MS. WALTNER: September?

22 MR. BROOKMAN: Look at Alison counting
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1 on her fingers over there.

2 (Laughter.)

3 MS. WALTNER: We've got to plan Alison's

4 vacation in there somewhere.

5 (Laughter.)

6 MS. WILLIAMS: Thank you.

7 (Laughter.)

8 MR. BROOKMAN: Meg, you're going to win

9 points here in the room.

10 (Laughter.)

11 MS. WALTNER: I would be okay with end

12 of September or October 1.

13 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay.

14 MS. WALTNER: I can live with that.

15 MR. BROOKMAN: So let's do that. Okay.

16 I'm getting a verbal sense of agreement from

17 everyone here.

18 Louis, you want to follow on? I'm eager

19 to keep this moving.

20 MR. STARR: Yeah. Well, you know,

21 originally in their term sheet, we were going to

22 start in this ASRAC right after this one.
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1 MR. BROOKMAN: Right.

2 MR. STARR: So I'm not too interested in

3 being a year-and-a-half from now. I mean --

4 MR. BROOKMAN: But that's --

5 MR. STARR: -- in other words --

6 MR. BROOKMAN: That's the NOPR, though.

7 MR. STARR: Well, yeah. No, what I

8 meant was that ideally we would just start this,

9 the ASRAC on this thing right after this one. So

10 when the timing moves out too much more, that's

11 kind of past what Meg's talking about, I'm less

12 and less interested in that.

13 I mean, part of the deal is if we'd look

14 at the savings, actually, in those circulators,

15 more savings there than all these pumps we're

16 talking about right now.

17 MR. BROOKMAN: Yeah.

18 MR. STARR: And I think when they re19 adjust the savings, kind of like they did with the

20 other ones, you'll see that those numbers will

21 maybe increase, too. Or no?

22 MS. WILLIAMS: I don't believe there was
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1 the same --

2 MR. STARR: Oh, okay.

3 (Laughter.)

4 MS. WILLIAMS: That was a back-of-the5 envelope calculation.

6 (Laughter.)

7 MR. BROOKMAN: I was thinking we could

8 probably rely on our ASRAC spokesperson, Tom

9 Eckman, to indicate to ASRAC the --

10 MR. ECKMAN: I mean, I think there's --

11 we'd like to get done with this, and I think the

12 manufacturers would like to get it done as well.

13 It's just that a due process time. You know, we

14 know where we are. You guys haven't talked about

15 it.

16 (Laughter.)

17 MS. WILLIAMS: So September isn't you

18 guys finishing, right? For September, there's

19 three months of OIRA review. There's probably two

20 months of DOE reviews. So there's at least four

21 to five months just of process, as you said, after

22 you complete.
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1 MR. ECKMAN: Yeah. Once we've agreed

2 it's not over yet.

3 MS. WILLIAMS: Yes. Correct.

4 (Laughter.)

5 MR. BROOKMAN: Mark Handzel.

6 MR. ADIN: Right. I mean, that's why we

7 said -- sorry to interrupt. But why we said for

8 this rule, you know, we'll finish with this now.

9 But we won't be able to publish NOPR until the end

10 of the year. So, I mean, you have to consider

11 that kind of time frame in there.

12 MR. BROOKMAN: So you're projecting

13 five-six months, as Alison says?

14 MR. HANDZEL: Mark Handzel.

15 Just in the spirit of managing

16 expectations, you know, all the resources that we

17 have are now going to be working on what we

18 decided in this rulemaking.

19 MR. BROOKMAN: Yeah. Yeah.

20 MR. HANDZEL: So, just understand that

21 those are the same people that we would use on

22 circulators. So just, you know, I mean, it -- we
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1 have to keep it into account. So I don't know

2 where we're going to end up. But I'm just saying

3 don't get too wound up about the energy savings

4 because, you know, we've got a lot of people are

5 going to be very busy.

6 MR. BROOKMAN: Gary Ferstrom.

7 MR. FERSTROM: So this is Gary.

8 So, Mark, you're saying as in

9 circulators, the same people go round and round?

10 (Laughter.)

11 MR. BROOKMAN: Steve Rosenstock.

12 I'm looking for a resolution on this,

13 folks. Let's find it.

14 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Steve Rosenstock.

15 Yeah, and again this is for the

16 manufacturers. Remember, 5B is -- you were talking

17 about a formal recommended -- formal rulemaking on

18 dedicated purpose pool pumps. That could be

19 another series of -- again, that's DOE hearings if

20 they do a framework, preliminary analysis, and

21 then NOPR. So that could be an extra three sets

22 of meetings or a couple.
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1 So again, I just -- I didn't know if you

2 wanted to talk about the timing of that rulemaking

3 in the context of what you're talking about for

4 5A. So.

5 MR. HANDZEL: So, Mark Handzel.

6 Just to say, as we've said all along

7 with pool pumps, the right people aren't at the

8 table.

9 MR. BROOKMAN: Yeah.

10 MR. HANDZEL: So we really are not

11 comfortable talking about pool pumps at all.

12 MR. BROOKMAN: Right. And this caucus

13 wanted to talk about pool pumps. So we're going

14 to hold on pool pumps. We're not going to decide

15 that now.

16 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Steve Rosenstock.

17 Just in case there was any overlap.

18 That's all I was asking.

19 MR. BROOKMAN: Yeah.

20 And do you want to say something, Lucas?

21 MR. ADIN: Well, just to provide a

22 little bit more clarification on what Steve just
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1 said. I mean, if DOE were to undertake a

2 rulemaking under its normal process, wherein we

3 start with a framework document and all that, I

4 mean, basically started from scratch with a

5 product that we have not addressed before, I mean,

6 normally that's like a three-year process.

7 So it's not nearly as quick as it was

8 with this one. It would be quite a lot longer.

9 So, just so that's understood.

10 MR. BROOKMAN: So I want you to take a

11 peek at what we, Alison has offered as edits.

12 And, Meg, this goes to your goal that

13 the second bullet in the middle of the page, goal

14 for a NOPR publication by the end of September

15 2015. And it seems as though the manufacturers'

16 caucus is generally okay with that as a target

17 date.

18 So, are we ready to move on, noting that

19 we haven't yet closed on the issue of pool pumps?

20 We'll just hold that and return to that.

21 Gary Ferstrom. Okay.

22 MS. WILLIAMS: So, are you -- since this
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1 is heavily edited, you should probably -- are you

2 going to re-vote on circulators? Okay. Oh, I

3 thought he was coming back to pool pumps.

4 MR. BROOKMAN: I'll come back on the

5 whole thing.

6 MS. WILLIAMS: Okay. Okay.

7 MR. BROOKMAN: On all of five. Okay.

8 But now we're moving on to number six,

9 which is, "This rulemaking will explicitly exclude

10 the following types of pumps." So I thought that

11 was a very productive discussion we had on the

12 pump types to be excluded. And you can see them

13 listed there and the separate dates that for which

14 we took votes.

15 Positive displacement pumps and axial

16 mixed flow pumps, and then double suction multi17 stage axially split, multi-stage radial split

18 horizontal, multi-stage radial split vertical

19 immersible, vertical turbine non- submersible.

20 And we concluded -- we obtained a vote

21 on those products first on the 31st of January

22 2014, and then the second grouping on March 26th,
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1 2014.

2 Comments, additional thoughts here? We

3 went through this in considerable detail. I think

4 we're ready to just say "Yea" and move on. Yes?

5 We're moving on.

6 Scope refinements.

7 MS. WALTNER: Doug, sorry. Just one

8 comment not on the content. But so later, we

9 include the other types of not specific pump

10 types, but their applications that are excluded by

11 those specific applications, at least what are the

12 basics, et cetera. I'm wondering if we should move

13 that part of the term sheet to the part that

14 includes the other solutions.

15 MR. BROOKMAN: Meg, I'm sorry. I didn't

16 quite follow you.

17 MS. WILLIAMS: I know. She's

18 recommending --

19 (Cross-talk.)

20 MS. WILLIAMS: Go ahead. Sorry.

21 MS. WALTNER: Recommendation number

22 eight.
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1 MR. BROOKMAN: Yes.

2 MS. WALTNER: Is also about exclusions.

3 And I'm just wondering if we should include that

4 with five or, you know, six, seven.

5 MR. BROOKMAN: I think the form that's

6 being observed here is, we took separate votes.

7 And --

8 MS. WILLIAMS: Well, so, the form, I

9 split this. Because these are specific pump

10 types, whereas the other ones are basically, or

11 could potentially be subcategories of the in-scope

12 pump type. So it's sort of arbitrary. We can

13 move some around.

14 It has nothing to do with how the votes

15 were taken, really.

16 MR. BROOKMAN: Mark.

17 MR. HANDZEL: Mark, yeah, Mark Handzel

18 from Xylem.

19 The only thing I would just do is -- I

20 think Meg kind of said she thinks these are

21 applications. Well, these, the second group is all

22 pump products, too. So notice the positive
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1 displacement, we say "pumps." So maybe we should

2 say "double suction pumps."

3 MS. WILLIAMS: Oh, I thought she was

4 talking about recommendation eight being

5 applications.

6 MR. BROOKMAN: I thought she was.

7 MR. HANDZEL: And that one? Okay, that

8 one.

9 MR. BROOKMAN: Meg, you were thinking

10 that they should be included?

11 MS. WALTNER: So, yeah. I was saying

12 that maybe recommendation eight should just follow

13 recommendation six.

14 MR. BROOKMAN: Oh, I got you.

15 MS. WALTNER: Since they're both about

16 exclusions.

17 MR. BROOKMAN: I got you. Okay.

18 MS. WALTNER: It's not -- I mean, it's -

19 - it was just a suggestion. It's not a strong

20 recommendation.

21 MR. BROOKMAN: Since these are other

22 exclusions, so you'd like to see them listed with
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1 the principal pump types that are excluded.

2 MS. WILLIAMS: Right.

3 MS. WALTNER: That was my thinking, yes.

4 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay.

5 MS. WILLIAMS: So, I had separated them

6 as basically the group that sort of does the

7 limiting it to clean water. So it can go in any

8 order.

9 MS. WALTNER: Okay. That's fine.

10 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. So, shall we move

11 them just so that they're contiguous?

12 Steve Rosenstock.

13 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Steve Rosenstock.

14 Yeah, I would, or maybe just say 6A, 6B,

15 6C. They're kind of flowed. And they kind of flow

16 nicely right now, in my view. Kind of -- kind of

17 umbrella versus kind of --

18 MR. BROOKMAN: It isn't one or the

19 other.

20 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Yeah.

21 MR. BROOKMAN: So, as a general matter,

22 I'd prefer to make fewer edits than more edits to
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1 this document.

2 MR. HUBER: As far as the pump caucus is

3 concerned, we're satisfied the way this is

4 presented.

5 MR. BROOKMAN: Yeah.

6 MS. WALTNER: Okay. It's fine to leave

7 it. Sorry.

8 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Thank you, Meg.

9 And, Meg, you've got an eye for the construction

10 of words, I've noticed. And we appreciate that

11 here in the room. We do. So keep your eyes open

12 for it.

13 So, now I'm going to the recommendation

14 number seven. Once again, this is for in-scope

15 pump types. "This rulemaking will be limited to

16 pumps with the following characteristics."

17 And you see them listed there, full

18 impeller diameter, one- to 200 horsepower shaft

19 power at BEP, sub-bullet applies to number of

20 stages required for testing the standard, 25

21 gallons per minute and greater at BEP, 459 feet of

22 head maximum at BEP, design temperature range from
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1 minus 10 to 120 degrees Celsius, pumps designed

2 for nominal 3,600, or 1,800 RPM driver speeds,

3 six-inch or smaller bowl diameter VTS/HI VS0.

4 And we obtained, after considerable

5 discussion and refinement, to, for example, the

6 head speed and the driver speeds, considerable

7 discussion on that, we arrived at this. I presume

8 we're still okay with this?

9 Okay. We're moving on. And this -- so

10 recommendation eight, Meg's comment was about the

11 contiguity of recommendation eight. No additional

12 -- she made no comments about the content here.

13 Any additional thoughts on the content here in

14 recommendation number eight?

15 Steve Rosenstock.

16 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Steve Rosenstock.

17 Yeah. That first sentence is just kind

18 of in a bracket there. I don't know if that kind

19 of --

20 MS. WILLIAMS: So, the words in brackets

21 are things that weren't technically in the written

22 votes that were taken. So it's stuff that I added
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1 to clarify things, but was not technically voted

2 on.

3 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Thank you very much.

4 Appreciate that.

5 MR. BROOKMAN: And so I think that we

6 should read that carefully, because I think it's a

7 useful addition that -- Alison's words here. But

8 I want to make sure everybody has a chance to read

9 this, since we didn't consider these actual words

10 previously.

11 "It has been the intent of the working

12 group to limit the scope of this rulemaking to

13 pumps designed for use in pumping clean water" --

14 "designed for use in pumping clean water" being

15 italicized to draw emphasis to it. "The

16 rulemaking will explicitly exclude the following

17 types of pumps, and these additional words - that

18 might otherwise meet the definition of an in-scope

19 pump type." So I thought that was well said.

20 Yes? Yes?

21 MR. HUBER: As far as the pump caucus is

22 concerned, we think this should be included. It
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1 doesn't need to be bracketed.

2 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay.

3 MR. ECKMAN: I think we agree with that.

4 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. So then, I'm

5 scanning the room here. We've got -- Greg Case.

6 MR. CASE: I think maybe for

7 clarification, and I don't know how to add it in,

8 as what we were thinking of as clean water. But

9 we provided a definition of "clean water." It

10 doesn't -- I know we had trouble with the

11 exception of it. But just saying "pumping clean

12 water" may be difficult for some people to

13 understand.

14 So we provided a definition of that. I

15 wonder if there's some way we can put it in to

16 say, "This was in our intent of what clean water

17 is."

18 MR. BROOKMAN: We never -- I do not

19 believe -- my recollection is I don't think we

20 ever zeroed in on a definition of -- we never set

21 --

22 MR. CASE: I thought one was presented.
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1 MS. WILLIAMS: Yes. We referred to the

2 EU definition of "clean water." And we can

3 certainly like footnote that here. Or if you want

4 to make it more -- I mean, there was no dissent, I

5 think.

6 MR. CASE: As long as it's footnoted

7 that our intent was to use the EU definition of

8 "clean water," great. I just -- we don't have any

9 way to define it other than that. So --

10 MR. BROOKMAN: That's consistent with

11 the discussion we had previously.

12 MR. CASE: Yeah. Exactly.

13 MR. BROOKMAN: But that was my

14 recollection.

15 Lucas, are you comfortable? Yeah?

16 Yeah.

17 Okay. So that's what we're going to do

18 then. Two things. We're going to accept this

19 language that has been bracketed, and we're going

20 to remove the brackets. And then we're going to

21 put a footnote that "clean water" is consistent or

22 congruent, whatever, with the -- as the EU
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1 definition of "clean water."

2 MR. HUBER: Then you might want to

3 reference that, where it's located.

4 MS. WILLIAMS: Yeah. I'll look it up.

5 Okay.

6 (Inaudible interjection.)

7 MR. BROOKMAN: The convention that we

8 said that we would, rather than "lot 11," we'd say

9 "phase one."

10 MS. WILLIAMS: This is different.

11 MR. ADIN: This is actually referring to

12 the European regulation.

13 MR. BROOKMAN: Yes. Okay.

14 MR. ADIN: So we just want to make clear

15 that's what this is.

16 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. So, Mark, follow

17 on, and then coming back to you, Joanna.

18 MR. HANDZEL: Yeah, Mark Handzel.

19 It's not really a follow-on. But I just

20 want to make sure we say we were going to remove

21 the brackets in recommendation seven? Because I

22 think we were supportive of that.
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1 MS. WILLIAMS: Oh, in seven?

2 MR. HANDZEL: Yeah. You had brackets on

3 the very -- the first -- you added some words

4 there.

5 MR. BROOKMAN: Thanks for adding that.

6 I did not cover that. But I think --

7 MR. HANDZEL: Yes. So we want those

8 brackets removed because that fits perfectly,

9 Alison.

10 MR. BROOKMAN: That's another

11 clarification that Alison added, and that's a good

12 clarification.

13 Any reservations from anyone here

14 present? We're looking at the very beginning of

15 recommendation number seven, the words "for the

16 in-scope pump types," that gets inserted. Those

17 brackets get removed. That's text, that's new text

18 that the working group is about to approve.

19 Okay? Okay. Then, good, that's done.

20 And now we're moving on. And we are --

21 just one moment, procedurally.

22 (Laughter.)
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1 MR. BROOKMAN: We want to confirm that

2 we also are going to remove -- I guess I've

3 already stated it. But I want to get final

4 confirmation that the brackets in recommendation

5 number eight, the words that Alison inserted there

6 are very useful and explanatory, that we're going

7 to remove those brackets, and also we're going to

8 insert the footnote that we described surrounding

9 the EU definition of "clean water." And

10 everybody's comfortable with that as well.

11 Joanna.

12 MS. MAUER: So, on the definition of

13 "clean water," so I know we had a lot of

14 discussion about this. And I mean, I think the

15 potential challenge we're talking about was, you

16 know, can DOE take a pump off a shelf and

17 determine whether it's a clean water pump. And I

18 think we had discussion about, you know, does it

19 make sense to define what clean water is or use

20 some other way of defining what's not included?

21 And my recollection is that DOE was

22 going to do some more thinking about that
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1 question.

2 MR. ADIN: Right. I think what we had

3 decided was that DOE would do the work of actually

4 coming up with the regulatory language that would

5 accomplish this intent. So, we need to perhaps do

6 a little more thinking about what makes that

7 airtight from a regulatory standpoint, with the

8 understanding that this is the intent expressed by

9 the working group, and we just needed --

10 MS. MAUER: So, is the intent to use the

11 definition of "clean water," or is the intent to

12 cover pumps that pump clean water as defined in

13 the EU?

14 MR. ADIN: My understanding is the

15 latter.

16 MS. MAUER: Which I think is --

17 MS. WILLIAMS: So, and I think these go

18 together, right? Like because of this worry, not

19 only were we going to probably say "pumps designed

20 for clean water" with this definition, but also we

21 have this list of exclusions to try to make that

22 more airtight.
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1 MR. BROOKMAN: Do you remember stepping

2 through that progression?

3 MS. MAUER: Yes.

4 MR. BROOKMAN: Yes. And as I recall it

5 being the latter.

6 MS. MAUER: Okay. Thanks for that

7 clarification.

8 MR. BROOKMAN: Yeah. Okay.

9 Steve Rosenstock.

10 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Steve Rosenstock, EEI.

11 And maybe there's a way to clarify, you

12 know, the first -- the bullet wastewater, sump,

13 slurry, solids. Then it says, "But not gray

14 water," so it sounds like it's an exception to the

15 exception, in a way, exception to the exclusion.

16 So, and I know we're talking about the

17 EU definition. So again, just -- just reading

18 that, again, just sometimes you read it, it's

19 like, so is gray water included or excluded? I --

20 you know, and again, just a matter of maybe

21 there's a better way to write it because it's a

22 list of exclusions. Then it says, "but not gray
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1 water." So, is it excluded or not?

2 MR. BROOKMAN: I see.

3 MR. HUBER: The definition of "clean

4 water" in the EU allows gray water.

5 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Okay. So maybe there

6 might be -- maybe if after "water" it says "gray

7 water," maybe put paren, "allowed under the EU" --

8 no. Leave it. Leave it back --

9 MS. WILLIAMS: I've made a footnote

10 instead so it's not as confusing, since the list

11 is exclusions. I'll just footnote it to be less

12 confusing, maybe?

13 MR. BROOKMAN: Yeah. Okay. Yeah. So

14 we don't have a positive construct.

15 MR. ROSENSTOCK: That's fine.

16 MR. BROOKMAN: Bob Barbour.

17 MR. BARBOUR: Bob Barbour with Taco.

18 I hate to do this. But I want to go

19 back to seven.

20 (Laughter.)

21 MR. BARBOUR: I just want to clarify one

22 thing. I know many of the pump caucus group may
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1 disagree with me on this. But when the very first

2 statement under there says, "full impeller

3 diameter," I know that's intended for the basic

4 model certification. But someone reading this for

5 the first time sees "full impeller diameter," and

6 they trim their pump, they're going to think they

7 don't have to comply.

8 I'm not talking about those of us in

9 this room who understand. I'm talking about

10 someone who may be sitting out in California or

11 someplace else.

12 (Laughter.)

13 MR. BROOKMAN: You mean the Left Coast

14 there or something.

15 (Cross-talk.)

16 MR. BARBOUR: They think they have

17 enough there or something.

18 MR. HUBER: Alison is going to try to

19 clarify that, I think, at 11; is that correct?

20 MS. WILLIAMS: Yes. We could do

21 something here also if you want to.

22 (Inaudible conversation.)
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1 MR. BARBOUR: My concern is that someone

2 is spinning their wheels --

3 MR. BROOKMAN: I got you. So, do you

4 have a proposed fix?

5 MR. BARBOUR: My proposed fix would be

6 to say "full impeller diameter," and then have the

7 brackets "basic model certification," and

8 "trimmed" -- whatever we want to call the standard

9 categories under the basic model, as also on

10 scope.

11 (Pause.)

12 MS. MAUER: This is Joanna.

13 Maybe a clarification question. I mean,

14 a trimmed impeller is not actually part of a basic

15 model, right?

16 MALE VOICE: In some categories.

17 MR. ADIN: Well, it's a modification of

18 what we're considering a basic model, right? I

19 mean, you're -- we're talking about the rating

20 being based on a given pump at full impeller. And

21 if you trim the impeller --

22 MALE VOICE: It will qualify.
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1 MR. ADIN: It would still be covered.

2 Its rating would be based on the test at full

3 impeller. So really, in a way, the impeller trim

4 issue is more of a test configuration kind of

5 issue than it is coverage. It's not which pumps

6 are covered. It's just, how does it have to be

7 tested to get the rating?

8 MS. WILLIAMS: So, I took it out of the

9 list and added it as a separate sentence. So it

10 says, "In addition, pump rating will be based on a

11 test at full impeller diameter." Does that help

12 solve the problem? Because I understand what you

13 mean, like the rest of the list is characteristics

14 of covered models.

15 (Inaudible interjection.)

16 MS. WILLIAMS: Yes. So it says, instead

17 of being part of the list, I added a separate

18 sentence that says, "In addition, the pump rating

19 will be based on a test at full impeller

20 diameter."

21 MR. BROOKMAN: Rob Boteler.

22 MR. BOTELER: From a motor perspective,
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1 I would absolutely agree with Bob, that if the

2 definition says "full impeller," if I build a pump

3 with a trimmed impeller, I'm not included in the

4 product. Lucas will disagree.

5 (Laughter.)

6 MR. ADIN: I don't think that's the

7 intent.

8 MS. WILLIAMS: Does this change -- no,

9 it was not the intent.

10 MR. BOTELER: I know it's not the

11 intent, but I'm saying that's the definition that

12 ends up in the rule.

13 MR. ADIN: Right. That's not what we

14 want it to say.

15 MS. WILLIAMS: Right.

16 MR. ADIN: I think we just want to be

17 clear that --

18 MR. BOTELER: Right.

19 MS. WILLIAMS: No. Does this change

20 address that?

21 (Inaudible conversation.)

22 MR. BROOKMAN: The question on the table
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1 is -- can you read it? Alison's edition is, she

2 has deleted

3 "full impeller diameter" as the first

4 bullet and added the following: "In addition, the

5 pump rating for a given model will be based on

6 testing at full impeller diameter."

7 Go ahead, Bob.

8 MR. BARBOUR: Bob Barbour, from Taco.

9 Should we add a statement or just a

10 comment on the end of that that says, "Trimmed

11 impellers approved with the full impeller are also

12 covered under scope"? That's all I'm trying to get

13 at.

14 MR. ADIN: I think what it is is pumps

15 that otherwise meet all these characteristics

16 aren't excluded from coverage purely on the basis

17 of having their impeller trimmed. Right? I mean,

18 that's --

19 MR. BROOKMAN: He wants to be really --

20 he wants --

21 (Inaudible conversation.)

22 MR. ADIN: I think there's value in
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1 doing that.

2 MR. BROOKMAN: Belts and suspenders he

3 wants.

4 MS. WIDDER: Another suggestion could

5 be, the EU -- the EU defines "full impeller" as

6 "the largest impeller diameter for which the pump

7 is sold." So if you don't produce a full run

8 impeller, it's just whatever the largest diameter

9 is.

10 So you can't get a way around the

11 regulation by only selling trimmed impellers,

12 because the full impeller is just the largest

13 available in the model literature.

14 MR. BROOKMAN: I don't know what is more

15 clear. I don't.

16 MS. WIDDER: That's just consistent with

17 the

18 EU.

19 MR. ADIN: Is it unclear what she means

20 by that? Or -- yeah, I think she's just saying

21 that we essentially have to be clear on what we

22 mean by "full impeller diameter" so that you can't
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1 say, "Well, I only sell a trimmed impeller, so" --

2 MS. WILLIAMS: And we will certainly do

3 that in the regulations. So.

4 MR. ADIN: Right.

5 MS. WIDDER: So this is what happens in

6 the EU. Just -- okay.

7 MR. POTTS: I have a comment, also.

8 MR. BROOKMAN: Yeah, Doug, just one

9 second.

10 I just -- so I'd like, before we hear

11 from Doug, Alison, do you think what you've

12 written there does it?

13 MS. WILLIAMS: Yeah. So I mean, so the

14 sentence still says, "In addition, the pump rating

15 for a given model will be based on testing at full

16 impeller diameter." And I added a footnote that,

17 as Lucas said, pumps that otherwise meet all these

18 characteristics will not be excluded on the basis

19 of having a trimmed impeller.

20 MR. BROOKMAN: I'm going to let him

21 follow on.

22 Go ahead.
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1 MR. BARBOUR: Bob Barbour from Taco.

2 Instead of saying "rating," should we

3 say "certification"?

4 (Pause.)

5 MS. WILLIAMS: I mean, that's

6 essentially --

7 MR. ADIN: They're kind of -- well, I

8 don't want to say they're the same thing. But I

9 mean, the certification relies on the rating, and

10 the rating is done through this, these defined

11 test procedure and rating procedures. So.

12 MR. BROOKMAN: The rating -- the rating

13 is the more -- it's immediate, right?

14 Doug Potts.

15 MR. BARBOUR: Almost, quick, finished --

16 I'm sorry.

17 MR. BROOKMAN: Yeah. Yeah.

18 MR. BARBOUR: Bob Barbour.

19 I was going to say the pump rating -- I

20 mean, the pump certification for a given model

21 shall be based on testing at full diameter for any

22 trimmed impeller, inclusive of any trimmed
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1 impellers.

2 MR. ADIN: You could just say the

3 certified rating.

4 MR. BARBOUR: Yeah. The pump certified

5 -- the pump certification for a given model will

6 be based on testing at full impeller diameter and

7 covering any trimmed impeller models, or impeller

8 -- impeller options, for lack of a better term.

9 (Inaudible conversation.)

10 MR. POTTS: Could I suggest -- this is

11 Doug Potts.

12 Could I suggest a slight change to that?

13 Instead of "other trim," saying, "full impeller

14 diameter and/or the largest diameter sold with

15 that pump." Right.

16 MR. BARBOUR: That doesn't cover smaller

17 trims, though.

18 MR. ADIN: No, no, I think --

19 Go ahead, Doug. I'm sorry. I didn't

20 mean to interrupt.

21 MR. POTTS: Well, so, actually, the

22 first reason -- the first thing I wanted to say
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1 was, keeping in mind with the discussion we had

2 yesterday that pumps with -- you know, pumps with

3 smaller trims, you know, we lose efficiency.

4 So it's possible that some pumps with

5 smaller trims, even though the model is certified

6 and meets the standard, a smaller-trim pump may

7 not itself meet the standard, because you've

8 trimmed it so much that it has a lower efficiency.

9 So I think it could really be confusing

10 and misleading if we say that it's going to meet

11 at all impeller diameters, because really we're

12 just meeting it at the full impeller diameter.

13 MR. HUBER: It's our understanding that

14 the certification applies only to the full

15 diameter, with the full understanding that

16 everybody sells trimmed diameters, but that the

17 rating on the pump itself, or that model pump

18 itself will be that rating attained at full

19 diameter. And that's my -- our understanding.

20 So, and I understand that you may get

21 less.

22 MS. WILLIAMS: The ratings are based on
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1 energy use, though, not efficiency.

2 MR. HUBER: That's true.

3 MS. WILLIAMS: So as we discussed

4 yesterday, the trimmed impellers will have lower

5 energy use.

6 MR. HUBER: Lower energy use.

7 MS. WILLIAMS: So.

8 MR. BROOKMAN: I guess I feel like your

9 clarification is good as it stands now. That's my

10 feeling.

11 MR. ADIN: Although, do we need to

12 clarify additionally that full impeller diameter,

13 it means the largest diameter impeller offered for

14 that model?

15 (Inaudible interjection.)

16 MR. ADIN: Right.

17 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. So, that's -- so I

18 think we've arrived at it now, have we not?

19 Here's what we're suggesting. And if you approve

20 this, we're going to take a break.

21 "In addition, the pump's certified

22 rating for a given model will be based on testing
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1 at full impeller diameter." And then there's

2 footnote 3, which reads, "Pumps that otherwise

3 meet all these characteristics will not be

4 excluded on the basis of having a trimmed

5 impeller. The certification rating for full

6 diameter will also apply to other trims." And

7 further explanation, "Full impeller means the

8 largest impeller diameter offered for sale for

9 that model."

10 That's complete, right? Okay. Are we

11 okay with that?

12 Steve Rosenstock.

13 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Steve Rosenstock, EEI.

14 I'm fine. It kind of sounds like it

15 should go under recommendation 10, which is about

16 the test procedure.

17 (Laughter.)

18 MR. BROOKMAN: Well, let's just leave it

19 here for now, since we've wordsmithed it here.

20 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Okay.

21 MS. WILLIAMS: Everything will go in

22 correct places in the NOPR, et cetera. So I think
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1 it's the order of the term sheet is not super

2 important.

3 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. We are in good

4 shape. We've made big progress. We're better than

5 halfway through -- well, almost halfway through, I

6 think.

7 Let's take a break. It's ten o'clock.

8 MR. ADIN: And just a reminder. If you

9 haven't given Brenda your business card, please do

10 so during the break. She's out at the desk out

11 there. Thanks.

12 MR. BROOKMAN: And good progress.

13 Fifteen minutes.

14 (Whereupon, at 9:58 a.m., a recess

15 was taken, to resume at 10:18

16 a.m.)

17 MR. BROOKMAN: We had stopped work on

18 recommendation number five. Alison had done

19 considerable edits, which I thought were in good

20 shape. However, we were going to wait for one

21 caucus to consult on the issue of pool pumps.

22 And I had a brief conversation with
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1 Gary. He said you all talked about it.

2 Tom Eckman. Yeah, number five, correct.

3 I may have misstated that, number five. Yes, Tom.

4 MR. ECKMAN: I think, as it stands, what

5 we couldn't say for sure was whether we had a time

6 frame in mind. But we think the DOE should

7 undertake a rulemaking, separate rulemaking for

8 pool pumps, right?

9 MS. MAUER: Yeah, and this is Joanna.

10 I think what we wanted to propose

11 specifically was what Meg proposed yesterday, the

12 DOE should initiate a rulemaking by the end of

13 2014 or another recommendation.

14 MR. BROOKMAN: Calendar or fiscal?

15 MS. MAUER: Calendar.

16 MR. ECKMAN: Calendar.

17 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay.

18 MR. ECKMAN: And if something happens

19 that we can negotiate, great. But just get the

20 rulemaking down the road. Because you guys don't

21 represent them, and we haven't talked to them.

22 So, since they're not in the room, we don't want
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1 to volunteer them for much.

2 (Laughter.)

3 MR. BROOKMAN: Yeah. The manufacturers

4 caucus.

5 Steve, yes?

6 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Well, again, Steve

7 Rosenstock.

8 So you're okay with a formal rulemaking

9 rather than another negotiation?

10 MR. ECKMAN: If they want to talk, we'll

11 talk.

12 MR. ROSENSTOCK: I know they're not in

13 the room. I'm just saying that what it says is

14 that this is a separate rulemaking; it's not a

15 negotiation. So that's what it's saying right

16 now.

17 MR. ECKMAN: At this stage, we're saying

18 rulemaking because we haven't talked to them about

19 whether they want to talk or not.

20 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Okay. Yeah. Okay. I

21 just wanted to say it's on paper. Thank you.

22 MR. ECKMAN: I don't want to volunteer
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1 them for a discussion they don't know anything

2 about.

3 (Laughter.)

4 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Okay. Great. So

5 then, but then let's -- I want to close on number

6 five. So everybody, if you would, focus on the

7 new language that Alison has inserted up here,

8 because I'm hoping to gain approval on this right

9 now. 5A reads, "Circulators" -- and she's

10 inserted, "CP 1, 2, and 3" -- "will be held for

11 additional informal negotiation between

12 manufacturers, efficiency advocates, and other

13 interested parties; advocates to make an initial

14 proposal and manufacturers to respond with a goal

15 of October" -- to respond --

16 (Inaudible interjection.)

17 MR. BROOKMAN: Yeah. I don't think we

18 need to wordsmith every -- the intent is there.

19 "It's stakeholders' aim to present a draft

20 proposal to DOE by March-April 2015. Stakeholders

21 request DOE commitment for technical support from

22 consultants to facilitate analysis." And then
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1 there's a sub-bullet, or as a bullet, "ASRAC

2 approved negotiation to begin by March following

3 the joint proposal. Goal for NOPR publication by

4 end of September 2015."

5 And then the additional recommendation

6 5B, "DOE should initiate a separate rulemaking for

7 dedicated purpose pool pumps by the end of

8 calendar 2014." Okay?

9 Al Huber.

10 MR. HUBER: Just for the sake of some of

11 my colleagues here, when you say "ASRAC approved,"

12 that means a working group, correct?

13 (Cross-talk.)

14 MR. HUBER: Is that what that --

15 MS. WILLIAMS: Yeah. Do you want to

16 just say that?

17 MR. HUBER: Thank you.

18 MR. BROOKMAN: I think that's what that

19 means.

20 MR. HUBER: Thank you.

21 MR. BROOKMAN: I don't think ASRAC has

22 done anything other than working groups so far.
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1 Joanna?

2 MS. MAUER: We were just having a little

3 discussion at the break that it may be really

4 helpful to have DOE support both in the kind of

5 standards analysis, but also on test procedure

6 development. So we were wondering if we could

7 just add -- yes, exactly what Alison said.

8 MR. ECKMAN: Because you guys are

9 working on a test procedure as well.

10 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. And DOE has

11 provided some support for that already, and we

12 would hope that they would continue to do so.

13 Okay. So that's all consistent, is the reason I'm

14 stating that. So we're okay with number five as

15 edited.

16 I wish to obtain -- yes? Okay. Okay.

17 We're missing Charlie Cappellino at the moment,

18 but otherwise

19 --

20 MR. HUBER: He's in a meeting. He'll be

21 back.

22 MR. BROOKMAN: Yeah. Okay. I'll check
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1 with him to make sure. I spoke with him before he

2 left the room. I said, "You're familiar with this

3 term sheet. You've read through it?" He said,

4 "Yes. No major problems with it." He confirmed

5 that. But I'll confirm this segment with Charlie.

6 (Inaudible conversation and

7 laughter.)

8 MS. WILLIAMS: So, Doug, should I have

9 vote results here? Or how do you want to handle

10 this?

11 MR. BROOKMAN: Go ahead, Lucas. I mean,

12 we're going to --

13 MR. ADIN: My read on this is that we're

14 changing it enough that we probably should vote on

15 it again.

16 MR. BROOKMAN: Yeah, I think that's not

17 a bad idea.

18 MR. ADIN: Right.

19 MR. BROOKMAN: But we're going to vote

20 on the entire thing. But maybe we should vote on

21 this as well. Okay?

22 All of those in favor of accepting these
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1 edits that I have just detailed, please show your

2 support by raising your hand.

3 (Show of hands.)

4 MR. BROOKMAN: All members present have

5 voted yes.

6 Meg, are you still with us?

7 (Pause.)

8 MR. BROOKMAN: Maybe she's not. Okay.

9 MALE VOICE: And one is absent.

10 MR. BROOKMAN: And one absent.

11 MS. WILLIAMS: So, how many are present?

12 MR. BROOKMAN: Count him present, but

13 I'll give him a chance to vote when he comes back.

14 So that's one, two, three, four, five, six, seven,

15 eight, nine, ten, eleven, twelve, thirteen yeses.

16 And one, I guess two absences at the moment.

17 MS. WILLIAMS: Three, three.

18 MR. BROOKMAN: Three absences, yeah.

19 Three absences.

20 Okay. Thank you. That's useful.

21 Now we're moving on. Where we left off

22 was, I don't believe we have --
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1 MR. CASE: Doug, that was for both 5A

2 and 5B, right? Okay.

3 MR. BROOKMAN: Yeah. And I do not

4 believe we had confirmed -- did we -- we didn't

5 finish up seven, did we? I don't think we did.

6 MS. WILLIAMS: Hopefully.

7 (Pause.)

8 MR. BROOKMAN: Yes. This to me is a

9 minor clarification, an important clarification.

10 But consistent with the original vote, confirming

11 full impeller diameter that the additional

12 language and the addition of the bullet that

13 replaces the original impeller -- thank you.

14 Yeah. Okay.

15 I just received a note that says, "Meg

16 votes yes." So we now have 14 yeses and two

17 absences.

18 MS. WILLIAMS: Sorry.

19 MR. BROOKMAN: Thank you, Meg.

20 (Pause.)

21 MR. BROOKMAN: I'm going to suggest we

22 not revote on this, we just get the sense of the
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1 group that we're okay with this. We had this

2 discussion just prior to the break. "Full

3 impeller diameter" is deleted, and then this last

4 bullet further clarifies what's meant by full

5 impeller diameter, as well as the footnote. Okay?

6 So anybody have any reservations about

7 that? Because we're about to move on.

8 Okay. We're moving on then to number

9 eight. And as we had already said in number eight,

10 we're going to remove those brackets. We're going

11 to have as a footnote the EU "clean water"

12 definition. And any other -- Steve Rosenstock.

13 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Steve Rosenstock, EEI.

14 Alison, can you just put that down so

15 all of the whole thing is on one page just so we

16 can read the whole? Kind of make it easier

17 because we made changes. Just put it on the next

18 page and then put it back up just so we could --

19 the whole thing with the edits.

20 Thank you. Yeah. Perfect.

21 MS. WILLIAMS: You still can't see it.

22 MR. BROOKMAN: So, any additional
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1 comments on recommendation number eight? For

2 which we obtained unanimity after several

3 meetings.

4 (Pause.)

5 MR. BROOKMAN: Are we okay with the

6 temperature in the room? Yeah. Is that why he

7 was here? We don't know. Okay.

8 (Laughter.)

9 MR. BROOKMAN: I'm comfortable.

10 No one is suggesting that there's

11 anything amiss with recommendation number eight?

12 I'm just confirming that now. This is what we did

13 before. We had a lot of discussion on all this.

14 I think this is very well vetted.

15 Now we're moving on to energy

16 conservation standards, recommendation number

17 nine, which reads, "For ESCC, ESFM, IL, and VTS

18 pumps in both 1,800 and 3,600 RPM speeds, the

19 energy conservation standards will be set at PER

20 25 (with C values iterated to cut off exactly 25

21 percent of the pumps

22 database])" -- I think that's good to have in
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1 there. That's merely further description -- "with

2 a compliance date four years from the publication

3 of the final rule."

4 That's exactly what we had said

5 previously -- "For RSV pumps, energy conservation

6 standards will be set to harmonize with the

7 European Union Lot 11 MEI 40 level" and new

8 wording in the brackets there, "

9 that no models known to pass the EU standard would

10 fail the US standard]."

11 MR. ECKMAN: Doug, I just wondered if

12 the compliance date, I mean, it applies to all of

13 them. So maybe the compliance date phrase ought

14 to be at the end, because it applies to all the

15 product classes, not just the first.

16 MR. BROOKMAN: Good point.

17 MR. ECKMAN: Is that right? Now? Good

18 there?

19 MR. BROOKMAN: And Al, please.

20 Thank you --

21 (Cross-talk.)

22 MR. HUBER: Al Huber, Patterson.
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1 I just want to clarify that the end,

2 when you put in parenthesis, "in the DOE

3 analytical team's database," I'm assuming that it

4 is the merged database.

5 MS. WILLIAMS: Um-hm.

6 MR. HUBER: Is that correct?

7 MS. WILLIAMS: Yes.

8 MR. HUBER: Or expanded database or

9 whatever you want to call it?

10 MS. WILLIAMS: Yep.

11 MR. HUBER: Okay. Thank you.

12 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. It's good

13 clarification.

14 Greg Towsley.

15 MR. TOWSLEY: Greg Towsley, Grundfos.

16 Probably better to use the EU regulation

17 547/2012 rather than "Lot 11."

18 MR. BROOKMAN: That number again is?

19 MR. TOWSLEY: 547/2012.

20 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay.

21 MS. WILLIAMS: Dan. Go ahead.

22 MR. BROOKMAN: Yes, Dan.
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1 MR. WEINTRAUB: On the wording of

2 "exactly 25 percent," can we get some clarity on

3 that? Because it will be impossible to get

4 exactly 25 percent.

5 (Laughter.)

6 MS. WILLIAMS: We'll do as best as we

7 can.

8 (Laughter.)

9 MR. WEINTRAUB: Oh, no. Well,

10 realistically, we're going to have one increment

11 above or one increment below, you know, either one

12 pump above 25 percent will be failing or will be a

13 little bit below 25 percent.

14 MALE VOICE: 10 percent.

15 MR. WEINTRAUB: Yeah.

16 MR. HUBER: Give us 25.2, 25.3, what do

17 you want?

18 MS. WILLIAMS: We'll do our best --

19 (Cross-talk.)

20 MR. WEINTRAUB: It depends on how many

21 models we have in our database. If we have 80

22 models in our database for VTS, than you can't get
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1 to 25 percent, you're going to have 25.5 or

2 something like that.

3 MS. WIDDER: Because you can't have a

4 partial model.

5 MR. WEINTRAUB: Yeah. So you can't have

6 a partial model. So.

7 MS. WILLIAMS: By as best as we can do,

8 I mean mathematically. Not like --

9 MR. WEINTRAUB: Yeah. We just can't be

10 bound to "exactly 25 percent."

11 MR. ADIN: And let's be clear. This

12 will all be in the Notice of Proposed Rulemaking,

13 will be absolutely clear about what it is that we

14 got, how we got it. To the extent you disagree,

15 you'll have an opportunity to give us feedback and

16 tell us what we can do to make it better if you

17 think we could.

18 MR. HUBER: But we won't say 26, 27.

19 MR. WEINTRAUB: No, no, no. It's just

20 going to be as close to the 25 as we can get.

21 MR. HUBER: All right.

22 MR. BROOKMAN: Right. There is one
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1 individual who is joining us online. Jennifer

2 McGrath has a comment.

3 Jennifer, I apologize. I got swept up

4 in the content here. Jennifer, I'll mute your

5 phone, and if you speak we ought to be able to

6 hear you.

7 MS. McGRATH: Can you hear me?

8 MR. BROOKMAN: Yes. Good. You sound

9 good. Keep going.

10 MS. McGRATH: Okay. My comment was

11 actually going back to number seven. I apologize.

12 MR. BROOKMAN: No, no. I took us out of

13 sequence. You're good.

14 MS. McGRATH: Going back to clarifying

15 the scope, my understanding was the definition of

16 that "scope" was based on the full impeller

17 diameter for a given pump. Well, for instance, if

18 the pump and its minimum trim uses 200 horsepower,

19 that by defining this scope by full impeller, that

20 pump may not be in scope.

21 The way it's written now, that pump

22 would be in scope, but you would have to test it
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1 at full impeller diameter, which (inaudible)

2 defines in scope. If that makes sense.

3 MR. BROOKMAN: Yeah. Jennifer, can you

4 see the revised version of the term sheet in --

5 MS. WILLIAMS: Well, I think she's

6 asking about possibly the -- like the one- to 200

7 horsepower is really shaft horsepower at the BEP

8 at full impeller diameter.

9 MR. BROOKMAN: Oh.

10 MS. WILLIAMS: Is that the

11 clarification?

12 MR. BROOKMAN: Jennifer, does that do

13 it?

14 MS. McGRATH: Footnote 3 implies that if

15 I have a pump that has 200 horsepower rating, for

16 instance, at something other than full impeller

17 diameter, it's still in the scope.

18 MS. WILLIAMS: Okay. So I've --

19 MS. McGRATH: I think that's --

20 MR. BROOKMAN: Alison?

21 MS. McGRATH: I think that full impeller

22 diameter was important up there to define that the
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1 scope, the horsepower, the flow, and the head were

2 all meant to be calculated as the full impeller

3 diameter for a given pump.

4 MS. WILLIAMS: Okay. So I've added that

5 clarification. Does anybody have an issue with

6 that? Okay.

7 MR. BROOKMAN: Jennifer, thank you.

8 That's useful. Thanks.

9 Charlie, while we were --

10 MS. McGRATH: I think footnote 3 needs

11 to be reworded then, because it conflicts with

12 that a little bit.

13 MS. WIDDER: I think she's just

14 concerned that like a large pump, for example,

15 like 250 horsepower could be trimmed to be 200

16 horse. And then that would be the largest trim.

17 But that's not what's intended, because full

18 impeller diameter is the largest impeller diameter

19 for which that pump is sold.

20 And so, just an impeller trim won't

21 bring that pump into scope.

22 MS. WILLIAMS: So I'm going to change it
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1 from "pump" to "pump models." So you wouldn't

2 have a pump model that otherwise meets the above

3 characteristics that now say at full impeller

4 diameter if it's trimmed. So I think we're all --

5 I think it's accomplishing the intent.

6 MR. BROOKMAN: Jennifer, thank you.

7 Please re-mute your phone. There's background

8 noise. Thank you.

9 Okay. So, everybody is comfortable with

10 that.

11 And, Charlie, while you were out of the

12 room, we did a vote. We took an actual vote on

13 number five. And I'm going to -- when we break for

14 lunch, I'm going to go over that with you and make

15 sure that we're okay.

16 Okay. Now I believe, were we on number

17 eight?

18 Yes, Steve Rosenstock.

19 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Yes, Steve Rosenstock,

20 EEI.

21 Again, just in terms of the language in

22 terms of cut off exactly 25 percent of the pumps -
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1 -

2 MR. BROOKMAN: Yeah.

3 MR. ROSENSTOCK: And just looking at

4 some of the previous slides, would it be better to

5 say -- I'll just give two options. Either

6 "approximately" or "at least 25 percent," just

7 because you're not going to get exactly 25

8 percent, 25.0 percent.

9 MR. BROOKMAN: How about "as close" --

10 MR. ROSENSTOCK: "However, not to

11 exceed"? Yeah, whatever.

12 MS. WILLIAMS: Cut off the as near to 25

13 percent of the pumps as possible.

14 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Or a maximum of 25

15 percent.

16 MALE VOICE: A minimum of 25 percent.

17 (Laughter.)

18 MS. WILLIAMS: I mean, we're just going

19 to do what we can. And we'll tell you in the NOPR

20 what it's cutting off.

21 MR. ROSENSTOCK: How many significant

22 digits.
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1 MS. WILLIAMS: And you guys can --

2 (Laughter.)

3 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Alison, how many

4 significant digits?

5 (Chorus of "Don't know.")

6 MS. WIDDER: It's variable because it's

7 based on the number of models in the database.

8 (Inaudible conversation.)

9 MR. BROOKMAN: What are the current

10 words you have there?

11 MS. WILLIAMS: It says, "as near to 25

12 percent as possible." I don't know that we need

13 to wordsmith this.

14 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Okay.

15 So, this recommendation, number nine,

16 is, as they say in the literature, the jewel in

17 the crown. This is important. We went over this

18 in considerable detail. We labored over this. We

19 negotiated back and forth very productively,

20 successfully. I'm hoping this is okay. And,

21 Joanna?

22 MS. MAUER: Just, is it PER 25 or PEI
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1 25? Okay.

2 MS. WILLIAMS: It's the same no matter

3 what. But yes.

4 (Laughter.)

5 MR. BROOKMAN: R would be I, wouldn't

6 it?

7 MS. WILLIAMS: Yes. I've changed it.

8 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Thanks, Joanna.

9 Thank you.

10 So then, I'm casting my eyes around the

11 room. I think we were okay with this yesterday.

12 And so I presume we're okay with it today. Yes.

13 Congratulations again, and I will move on.

14 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Doug, Doug. This is

15 Steve Rosenstock.

16 I abstained yesterday. Can I change a

17 vote, or is that not allowed?

18 MR. BROOKMAN: You may change your vote.

19 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Put mine as yes rather

20 than abstain.

21 MR. BROOKMAN: Thank you.

22 Test procedure and metric,
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1 recommendation number 10. "Pump test procedure

2 should be in accordance with HI 40.6 for

3 determining bare pump performance." We discussed

4 this. The manufacturing caucus especially wanted

5 to make certain that DOE understood that that was

6 their preference, that that worked, that that be

7 carried forward.

8 The energy efficiency advocates caucus

9 also agreed that that was a sensible thing to do.

10 So that's why that's there.

11 You can see the vote count. There were

12 two abstentions. I should note -- I haven't

13 already noted in the record, we have, of course, a

14 quorum today, as we did yesterday for these votes.

15 So in terms of the ground rules, we're all set.

16 Any additional thoughts or comments on

17 the test procedure? To me, that's kind of a no18 brainer. That's been the basis for our work.

19 So we're moving on to recommendation

20 number

21 11.

22 Steve.
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1 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Steve Rosenstock, EEI.

2 In terms of the language for the CL and

3 VL, the PER CL and VL, I'm just kind of going back

4 to our recommendation three, which said, "Test

5 procedure specified for a pump, rating

6 calculations for the energy conservation standards

7 also apply to pumps with non-electric drivers."

8 The way this language is written now,

9 it's only applying to electric drivers. So again,

10 this is just pure test procedure, not metric --

11 test procedure. So I was wondering if, for the

12 group's consideration if we could do things like

13 instead of "average electric input power," say

14 something like "average electric input power or

15 energy input."

16 And then below, for Pini, say "power or

17 energy input to the pump at the driver."

18 MS. WILLIAMS: So, Steve, currently, I

19 think the metric as we've construed it is only

20 electric input power. And I think if we wanted to

21 change it to something else later, that might be -

22 -
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1 MR. ROSENSTOCK: But this is in

2 reference to kind of -- I'm trying to put in

3 language that kind of future-proofs the test

4 procedure to say it's electric now, but it can be

5 --

6 MS. WILLIAMS: We'll have to change the

7 test procedure if it's expanded to include non8 electric, or to -- yes, to include other than

9 electric motors, the test procedures will have to

10 be revised.

11 MR. ROSENSTOCK: But that is the

12 recommendation. That's part of the recommendation

13 that the test procedure will specify that's not

14 electric drivers as well.

15 MS. WILLIAMS: What?

16 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Recommendation number

17 three, second sentence.

18 MS. WILLIAMS: It says that they will be

19 treated as bare shaft pumps for the purposes of

20 regulation. Right?

21 MR. ROSENSTOCK: No. So, recommendation

22 three says, "The rating calculations for the
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1 energy conservation standard also apply to pumps

2 with non- electric drivers."

3 MS. WILLIAMS: That the bare pump rating

4 calculations.

5 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Right. Right.

6 MS. WILLIAMS: So the bare pump will be

7 tested, and it will be -- and default motor values

8 will be applied to it for the rating.

9 MS. WIDDER: And those will still be in

10 units of electric --

11 MS. WILLIAMS: Yes.

12 MR. ROSENSTOCK: But how is that going

13 to apply for non-electric drivers?

14 MS. WIDDER: So, if you were to --

15 MR. BROOKMAN: Microphone.

16 MS. WILLIAMS: Sarah, mike.

17 MS. WIDDER: Sorry. So, if you were to

18 --

19 MR. BROOKMAN: Sarah Widder.

20 MS. WIDDER: This is Sarah from PNNL.

21 If you were to sell a pump with a non22 electric driver --
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1 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Yes.

2 MS. WIDDER: -- to comply with, to

3 demonstrate certification for DOE, you would just

4 test the bare shaft pump and then use default

5 motor efficiency and motor loss curves to rate

6 that pump as if it were to be paired with a motor.

7 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Right.

8 MS. WIDDER: And so the P is still

9 representative of electrical input power for the

10 purposes of the metric. However, that pump can be

11 paired with any type of driver in the field.

12 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Steve Rosenstock, EEI.

13 I'm really going to have to think about

14 that, just because of the fact that -- okay. In

15 the future, when DOE makes other rulemakings that,

16 for with non- electric drivers the efficiency

17 ratings are significantly different, you know,

18 non-electric driver might be 27 percent efficient

19 versus a motor of 95 percent efficient.

20 So again, there's going to be different

21 energy being used for that pump and the driver,

22 and their controls might have different impacts on
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1 the non- electric driver versus the electric

2 driver.

3 So again, I'm not trying to slow it

4 down. I'm just trying to think about the future

5 where, if DOE does do rulemakings on pumps with

6 non-electric drivers -- because they are out

7 there; we saw that before, especially in the

8 agricultural sector -- that the test procedure

9 should be able to handle -- it shouldn't be --

10 they're not really equivalent on an energy basis.

11 MS. WILLIAMS: The test procedure will

12 have to be modified. I don't think we can future13 proof this situation here.

14 MS. WIDDER: And the other thing I would

15 say is that this is a pumps rulemaking.

16 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Right.

17 MS. WIDDER: And so we're still covering

18 the pump. And the hydraulic improvements to the

19 pump are still being captured regardless of the

20 driver.

21 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Okay. Okay.

22 MS. WIDDER: And that's really what
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1 we're concerned with here today in this

2 rulemaking. So, I would just focus on that for

3 now. And then in the future, if DOE were to

4 revise the metric to cover non- electric drivers

5 or even to cover motors in a meaningful way, which

6 is not being accomplished today, or drivers,

7 VFD's, controls, there's a large scope that's out

8 there.

9 And there are significant modifications,

10 aside from changing how Pi is defined.

11 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Okay. Okay. Now, the

12 only other thought for you is for P input i again,

13 if you scroll down for that one thing. Again,

14 just for people's consideration.

15 MR. BROOKMAN: Steve, what are you

16 referring to? I'm sorry.

17 MR. ROSENSTOCK: The second bullet right

18 there at the bottom, Pini, that one. Do you want

19 to put HP or

20 KW?

21 MS. WILLIAMS: No.

22 MS. WIDDER: No.
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1 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Okay. You're just

2 internationally might be in KW ratings.

3 MS. WIDDER: I think it's important that

4 it's horsepower to be consistent with units.

5 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Okay.

6 MS. WIDDER: Okay.

7 MR. BROOKMAN: So, we're on

8 recommendation number 11. And you can see the

9 bracketed words, which are explanatory. "The

10 metric for assessing compliance for the standard

11 should be PEI." Should we spell that out? Have

12 you done that previously?

13 MS. WILLIAMS: It's just below.

14 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay, "which is

15 constructed based on values of PER." That's

16 consistent with all the work we've done in the

17 metrics domain here. These PEI subscript CL PEI

18 subscript VL, these are not -- these are familiar

19 with everyone in the room.

20 MS. WILLIAMS: Yeah. This is all taken

21 directly off the slide that Sarah edited yesterday

22 when you guys voted on this. So it's the same.
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1 MR. BROOKMAN: Charlie Cappellino.

2 MR. CAPPELLINO: Just for the sake of

3 clarity, I'm trying to -- if you go back to

4 recommendation number nine, you guys changed the

5 PER to PEI.

6 MS. WILLIAMS: Yeah.

7 MR. CAPPELLINO: I was trying to get it

8 clear in my mind, how does that relate to down

9 below where you have PER and PEI? I've always

10 related PEI to kind of a decimal somewhere between

11 --

12 (Cross-talk.)

13 MS. WILLIAMS: The 25 percent cuts -- so

14 the 25 is really just representing 25 percent

15 cutoff. And no matter if we use PER or PEI, we

16 would get the same 25 percent cutoff. So, it's

17 just nomenclature.

18 MR. CAPPELLINO: So the 25 is more of a

19 reference nomenclature.

20 MR. BROOKMAN: Al Huber.

21 MR. HUBER: It's my understanding that

22 when we talk about PEI, we're talking about the
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1 index and we're talking about a horsepower.

2 When we talk about the cutoff, we're

3 talking about PER and the percentage of cutoff.

4 MR. ADIN: It really doesn't matter

5 which metric you're using. The cutoff is just a

6 percentage of the market. That's really what

7 we're trying to accomplish.

8 MR. HUBER: Right. I understand that.

9 MR. ADIN: Yeah.

10 MR. HUBER: But in the past as we've

11 discussed all this, that's the way we discussed

12 it. I mean, the PEI is a horsepower rating.

13 MS. WIDDER: It's the opposite.

14 MR. HUBER: It's an index. It's not a

15 cutoff. It's an index.

16 MS. WIDDER: PEI is an index. PER is a

17 horsepower rating.

18 MR. HUBER: Right, an index. Thank you.

19 MR. ADIN: Right. Yes.

20 MS. WIDDER: But, however, I will say

21 that PEI 25 equals PER 25.

22 MR. ADIN: Right.
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1 MS. WIDDER: And for the purposes of

2 DOE, it's best to have consistent metric. And we

3 talked about putting PEI and the label and

4 reporting PEI, and so specifying the standard in

5 terms of PEI is most consistent.

6 MR. HUBER: So from now on, we're going

7 to reference this PEI and no PER?

8 MR. ADIN: Well --

9 MS. WIDDER: Yeah. Well, the only

10 reason we split the nomenclature is to be clear

11 about when we were referring to a weighted average

12 input power of the pump over the standard. Yeah.

13 Bob?

14 MR. BARBOUR: Bob Barbour, Taco.

15 MR. BROOKMAN: That was Sarah Widder

16 speaking, now Bob.

17 MR. BARBOUR: I'm sorry. Bob Barbour at

18 Taco.

19 So, my understanding of the PEI is it's

20 actually going to be a value somewhere between

21 maybe a .1 and a 1. It will never be outside of

22 that range.
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1 MS. WIDDER: Correct.

2 MR. BARBOUR: For passing pumps.

3 MS. WIDDER: Right.

4 MR. ADIN: Right. So the standard --

5 MR. BARBOUR: Anything above a 1 would

6 fail?

7 MS. WIDDER: Um-hm.

8 MR. BARBOUR: Right. It's really not a

9 horsepower when you're talking PEI, only when

10 you're talking PER.

11 MS. WIDDER: Correct.

12 MR. ADIN: Yeah.

13 MR. BARBOUR: Because it's actually a

14 ratio.

15 MS. WIDDER: Correct.

16 MR. ADIN: Right. That's an index to a

17 horsepower rating.

18 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. So thanks for that

19 clarification.

20 And I'm looking at the equations that

21 are listed there at the top of -- there are no

22 page numbers
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1 -- the following page for recommendation

2 11, where it says, "Pump Energy Rating CL and VL:

3 equally weighted average electric input power to

4 the pump measured paren or calculated at the

5 driver input or when present controls input over a

6 specified low profile," and that's how you derive

7 it.

8 And all of the terms are defined. And

9 our previous work on this resulted in a consensus

10 vote with one abstention and one absent.

11 Additional questions or comments on any

12 of this?

13 Al Huber.

14 MR. HUBER: Al Huber, Patterson.

15 I just want to point out that Alison has

16 added "at full diameter," "full impeller diameter"

17 to this. So this has been added.

18 MS. WILLIAMS: Yes. Sorry. Al and I

19 discussed this earlier. So we're just going to

20 clarify in this recommendation that the PEI and

21 PER are both related to the full impeller

22 diameter.
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1 MR. ADIN: And purely for textual

2 clarity --

3 MS. WILLIAMS: Right.

4 MR. ADIN: -- maybe just put in "PER"

5 before the little subscript VL?

6 MS. WILLIAMS: Oh.

7 MR. ADIN: I think we understand that

8 that's PER CL and VL. But, yeah.

9 MR. BROOKMAN: So this is consistent

10 with the previous conversation we had already this

11 morning?

12 MS. WILLIAMS: Yep.

13 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. So any

14 reservations or concerns about that?

15 I see none. Okay. So then, that's

16 good.

17 And we're moving on to labeling

18 recommendations. As I read through all these

19 recommendations, this group really has been very

20 productive.

21 (Laughter.)

22 MR. BROOKMAN: Covered a lot of ground
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1 here in the span of these negotiations.

2 Recommendation 12, "Pumps are labeled

3 based on the configuration in which they are sold.

4 The following information would be required to be

5 included on a pump nameplate," and you can see the

6 items listed for a bare pump: PEI CL, model

7 number, and impeller diameter for each unit; bare

8 pump plus motor: the same; and bare pump plus

9 motor and controls: also the same.

10 MS. WILLIAMS: No, it's PEI VL instead

11 of CL.

12 MR. BROOKMAN: Thank you. PEI VL.

13 Thank you for that correction.

14 Yes, Steve Rosenstock.

15 MR. ROSENSTOCK: And again, Steve

16 Rosenstock,

17 EEI.

18 I'm sorry I wasn't here for yesterday's

19 conversation. But, you know, just thinking about

20 -- I would -- again, this is just my own personal

21 thought, showing both the CL and the VL for the

22 bare pump motor and controls, because that way you
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1 can kind of do an apples-to-apples comparison.

2 If you have -- if you're in the

3 marketplace, if you are a customer, you have a

4 choice -- let's say you have a choice for the bare

5 pump and a motor and a bare pump-motor-controls.

6 Both might be helpful. For whatever reason if for

7 some reason, if something five years down the

8 line, that pump is going to only be constant load,

9 it's good to know that, you know, what is the PEI

10 with the controls, compared to the pump and motor

11 without the controls?

12 So --

13 MR. BROOKMAN: Al Huber.

14 MR. HUBER: We had much discussion about

15 that yesterday. Since we have no control over

16 whose control somebody puts on there, we are very

17 hesitant to put any labeling on there that relates

18 to controls unless we sell it. If we sell it,

19 then we'll label it with the PEI VL. If we don't

20 sell it, then we're not going to label it for

21 that. We'll label it with the CL.

22 All the literature that we have will
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1 reflect both cases. And the customer can go and

2 take a look at that. But, you know, from a legal

3 standpoint, we don't want to be labeling something

4 we're not responsible for. We don't know what

5 control they put on it. That's the reason we

6 didn't do that.

7 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay, Steve?

8 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Yeah.

9 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Okay.

10 So then, considerable discussion on this

11 yesterday. I think we're ready to move on. Yes?

12 Yes. Bob Barbour.

13 MR. BARBOUR: Bob Barbour from Taco.

14 I didn't know if Steve wanted to change

15 any of his votes to reduce the number of

16 abstentions that we've had on any of these ones

17 that we've gone through. I noticed when I

18 initially started to look at working groups and

19 listened in to an ASRAC committee meeting, they

20 seemed to have a lot of sensitivity to abstentions

21 and "no" votes. So I didn't know if we wanted to

22 try to reduce what we showed for the number of
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1 abstentions on the voting.

2 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay.

3 MR. BARBOUR: So I just wanted to bring

4 that up and give Steve the opportunity, if he

5 wanted, to make any voting.

6 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Steve Rosenstock, EEI.

7 Thank you for that. For number 12,

8 please change my abstain to yes.

9 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Thank you, Steve.

10 MALE VOICE: What about 11?

11 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Steve Rosenstock, EEI.

12 No change.

13 MR. BROOKMAN: No change. Okay.

14 Now we're moving on to certification

15 reporting requirements, recommendation number 13.

16 Sarah and I had a brief conversation at the break.

17 We weren't 100 percent certain that we voted on

18 this, but apparently we did.

19 MS. WIDDER: Yes.

20 MR. BROOKMAN: And so you can see -- we

21 had considerable discussion on this yesterday.

22 Those items listed there, "Recommended data to be
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1 included in the certification reports database."

2 This is the report you would send to

3 ASRAC and they would then send to DOE --

4 manufacturer name, model numbers, equipment class,

5 PEI CL or PEI VL subscripts, as applicable, BEP

6 flow rate and head, rated speed, number of stages

7 tested, full impeller diameter, whether the PEI CL

8 subscript or PEI VL subscript is calculated or

9 tested, input power to the pump at each load

10 point.

11 And yesterday we had 13 yeses and two

12 abstentions and one absent on this recommendation.

13 So, additional thoughts on the

14 certification reporting requirements? Steve?

15 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Steve Rosenstock, EEI.

16 Just a quick question for full impeller

17 diameters, the actual -- is that the length?

18 That's the length of it, right?

19 MR. BROOKMAN: Would you repeat that,

20 please?

21 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Steve Rosenstock, EEI.

22 For the full impeller diameter, you're
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1 reporting the length? That's what you're

2 reporting, right?

3 MS. WILLIAMS: The diameter.

4 MR. ROSENSTOCK: There it's a full

5 departure.

6 (Cross-talk.)

7 MR. ROSENSTOCK: I'm sorry.

8 MR. BROOKMAN: Yes.

9 MR. ROSENSTOCK: It would be in

10 centimeters. It's going to be in centimeters.

11 Now it's going to say full versus trimmed

12 impeller. That's what I'm trying to say. Okay.

13 It's full, and it's going to be in centimeters or

14 inches or whatever. That's all.

15 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Thank you.

16 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Because of the

17 discussion before about full versus trim.

18 MR. BROOKMAN: I'm with you.

19 Everybody okay with this? We're about

20 to move on.

21 Okay. Then recommendation --

22 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Wait a minute. Steve
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1 Rosenstock, EEI.

2 Change my abstain to yes.

3 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Thank you.

4 Fourteen yeses, one abstention.

5 Then, recommendation number 14,

6 "Certification for RSV and VTS pumps shall be

7 based on testing with the following number of

8 stages." We uncovered this yesterday. RSV: three

9 stages. VTS: nine stages. And then the

10 additional clarifying bullet, "unless a model is

11 not available with that specific number of stages

12 in the given scope, in which case the model will

13 be tested and certified with the next-higher

14 number of stages."

15 Steve, you missed a detailed

16 conversation on this one.

17 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Steve Rosenstock, EEI.

18 So, in the case of VTS, again, if it's

19 not available with nine stages in that scope, it

20 "will be tested and certified with the next-higher

21 number of stages" as designated by who? DOE or

22 manufacturers or Hydraulic Institute?
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1 MR. HUBER: The intent here is if

2 there's a manufacturer who doesn't make a nine3 stage, that he makes an eight-stage, then he would

4 submit it at its largest number of stages, at

5 eight. So it's up to the manufacturer.

6 MR. ADIN: And Steve, just for

7 clarification, I think that was the intent in

8 including the number of stages tested in the

9 reported data so that there be certainty about

10 what was actually tested to obtain that rating.

11 MR. HUBER: And so that you understand,

12 it was discussed yesterday that, with the more

13 number of stages, the pump generally gets more

14 efficient because of the losses with fewer number

15 of stages in the suction at discharge.

16 (Pause.)

17 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. So are you okay?

18 Do you wish to change your vote from an abstain to

19 a yes?

20 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Yes.

21 MS. WILLIAMS: Can we -- sorry, I just

22 want to clarify how you guys interpret "next-
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1 higher." Is it -- would you interpret it as eight

2 or as ten?

3 MR. HUBER: That's not right.

4 MS. WILLIAMS: This is what the EU said.

5 So we were thinking maybe we should clarify it.

6 MS. WIDDER: Right. For us, for our

7 purposes.

8 MS. WILLIAMS: So --

9 MR. TOWSLEY: Greg Towsley.

10 MS. WIDDER: The highest available?

11 MR. TOWSLEY: Greg Towsley, Grundfos.

12 Highest-available is fine, because in

13 some cases we may only have five stages. At the

14 same time, there may be -- we may not offer the

15 nine; it may be ten. And --

16 MS. WILLIAMS: Right. So if you -- like

17 if you only offer ones above nine, you would want

18 a rate above --

19 MR. TOWSLEY: I think that's fine right

20 there.

21 MS. WILLIAMS: It's fine?

22 MR. TOWSLEY: Yeah.
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1 MS. WILLIAMS: Okay. So if you only

2 made up to five, you would rate with five. And if

3 you only made it down to 10, you would rate at 10?

4 Or is this what this is saying? We just copied it

5 from the EU requirements. So we just want to make

6 sure the language is clear.

7 (Pause.)

8 MS. WILLIAMS: But we don't want them to

9 rate like a 50-stage pump.

10 MR. HUBER: Well, this is assuming that

11 you don't make any that low.

12 MS. WILLIAMS: Right.

13 MR. HUBER: With that number of stages,

14 you don't make -- so you only do it to four.

15 MS. WIDDER: Right.

16 MS. WILLIAMS: Right.

17 MR. HUBER: So then you've gotten --

18 MS. WALTNER: Al, could you use your

19 mike?

20 MR. BROOKMAN: Al Huber, please.

21 MR. HUBER: The way this -- Al Huber.

22 The way this reads, the way that you
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1 have it now, it's if a manufacturer made it four,

2 then that's where you would test it if he didn't

3 make it at three.

4 MS. WILLIAMS: Okay.

5 MR. HUBER: That's the intent. I think

6 that's the intent of what they're saying. But

7 it's not really very clear.

8 MS. WILLIAMS: Right. And I'm worried

9 about if it's the other way also.

10 MR. HUBER: The other way around.

11 MS. WIDDER: Right.

12 MR. HUBER: Yeah, me, too.

13 MS. WILLIAMS: So, does anybody have

14 suggestions for clarifying this?

15 MR. HUBER: Well, I almost think if --

16 you want to be able to set it. If all of them

17 make three or all of them make nine, you want them

18 all tested at the same number of stages, I think.

19 MS. WILLIAMS: Yep.

20 MR. HUBER: If they don't make that,

21 then it should be the closest or -- the closest to

22 that they offer for sale.
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1 MS. WILLIAMS: Right. Okay.

2 MR. ADIN: So if they only make --

3 MR. HUBER: A two.

4 MR. ADIN: -- pumps with more than nine,

5 it's the lowest number.

6 MR. HUBER: It's nine. You test at

7 nine.

8 MR. ADIN: Nine. Yeah. And if they

9 only make it with less, then it's whatever it is,

10 the highest.

11 MR. HUBER: It's whatever it is.

12 MR. ADIN: Right. Okay.

13 MS. WIDDER: Would there ever be a case

14 where someone made like eight and ten, but not

15 nine?

16 MR. HUBER: I would doubt it. All

17 things are possible, but I doubt it.

18 MR. ADIN: Well, if it's possible, we

19 should probably --

20 MS. WIDDER: Perhaps. Just pick one? I

21 mean, not like -- we should specify it. It should

22 be the higher or the lower in that case.
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1 (Cross-talk.)

2 MR. HUBER: It's not likely. It's not

3 likely. Otherwise, we're going to be here all day.

4 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Steve Rosenstock, EEI.

5 Again, maybe it's good to put some

6 numbers out there. Say, you know, okay, VTS type

7 of pump, one manufacturer makes it with five

8 stages, the other one makes it with fifteen. What

9 do you test to?

10 (Pause.)

11 MS. WILLIAMS: How -- like, Greg, do you

12 have -- or Mark, do you guys have any idea how

13 common it is for these number of stages to not be

14 available?

15 (Pause.)

16 MS. WILLIAMS: Anybody who would like to

17 volunteer.

18 MR. TOWSLEY: Greg Towsley, Grundfos.

19 I know that we have some VTS products

20 that don't go to nine stages, and we're limiting

21 them due to shaft diameter, horsepower limitations

22 on the shaft diameter.
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1 MS. WILLIAMS: Okay.

2 MR. TOWSLEY: So you start getting up

3 there. You have to go to a larger shaft, and it

4 just doesn't make sense.

5 MS. WILLIAMS: Yeah.

6 MR. TOWSLEY: So, yeah. We have some

7 that are maybe four, three, five stages or six,

8 seven, or maybe even just eight. But RSV -- I

9 think all of ours that are within the -- well, all

10 of them are within scope of 200 horsepower. I

11 think we have, max, three stages for our RSV's

12 ourselves, but nothing less than that.

13 (Pause.)

14 MR. HUBER: Can you put "the highest

15 number of stages offered for sale"?

16 MS. WILLIAMS: Only in the one case.

17 Right, with the highest number of stages offered

18 for sale. Because if there's a case where they

19 only have above nine stages, we don't want it

20 rated with like a gazillion stages, right? That

21 is not likely to happen.

22 MR. TOWSLEY: Greg Towsley, Grundfos.
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1 I don't know that anybody would not

2 offer, you know, have an eight stage and then a

3 ten stage or some combination.

4 MS. WILLIAMS: Okay.

5 MR. TOWSLEY: But I don't know that

6 there's any way that it could be gained by saying

7 if you say the next higher one, the nine or the

8 next lower -- I don't know that there's -- it can

9 be gained in any way.

10 MS. WILLIAMS: Yeah. I mean, that's

11 what I was trying to write in the footnote. Am I

12 saying that or no?

13 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Steve Rosenstock, EEI.

14 Use "the lowest available stage" -- that

15 sentence doesn't make sense. Lowest number,

16 available number of stages? But not less than

17 three or nine.

18 MR. HUBER: "The lowest number of stages

19 offered for sale." You don't need to say

20 "available."

21 MS. WILLIAMS: Oh. Yes.

22 MR. HUBER: Now you've got it. You've
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1 got all cases covered.

2 MS. WILLIAMS: Okay. Lovely. Thank

3 you.

4 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Just so we note

5 what this is, the footnote says, that supplements

6 bullet three, "If only fewer than the required

7 number of stages are available, rate with the

8 highest number of stages offered for sale. If

9 only more than the required number of stages are

10 available, use the lowest number of stages offered

11 for sale."

12 And so we think that covers it.

13 Charlie Cappellino.

14 MR. CAPPELLINO: Charlie Cappellino.

15 So the third bullet up there, Alison,

16 where it says, "unless a model is not available,"

17 wouldn't that read better if it would say "if a

18 model is not available"?

19 MS. WILLIAMS: Yeah. Yep.

20 MR. BROOKMAN: And Al Iseppon has a

21 comment.

22 Al, I believe you're unmuted. If you
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1 speak, we should be able to hear you.

2 (Pause.)

3 MR. ADIN: Actually, Alison, the way

4 that it's modified now, you might want to get rid

5 of "in which case," because the way that was

6 written before. So if "model" is -- do you see

7 what I mean?

8 MS. WILLIAMS: Yeah.

9 MR. ADIN: Okay.

10 MS. WILLIAMS: Okay.

11 MR. ADIN: It's clearer.

12 MS. WALTNER: Doug, this is Meg.

13 It seems like now the only situation

14 that is unclear is if there is both an eight and

15 ten stage model available.

16 MS. WILLIAMS: Yeah. I mean, we can try

17 to clean this up in the regs if we need to.

18 MS. WALTNER: Okay. That's fine.

19 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay.

20 MS. WILLIAMS: Sarah has a --

21 MS. WIDDER: I agree with Alison. I

22 mean, I think I think we can be abundantly clear
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1 and precise in the regs. I just didn't know if

2 the manufacturers had any opinion on in the rare

3 case that a model was offered with eight and ten,

4 that whether we round up or round down.

5 MR. BROOKMAN: Right.

6 Al Huber.

7 MR. HUBER: No, we don't have a

8 preference.

9 MS. WIDDER: Okay. Great. Thank you.

10 MR. HUBER: I don't think you're going

11 to find the rare case, quite frankly. But --

12 MS. WIDDER: Right. We just, you know,

13 want to be sure. Thank you.

14 MR. BROOKMAN: So then, and we should

15 also reflect that Steve, I believe, you said in

16 this case you remove your abstention and vote yes?

17 So it will be 15 yeses and zero abstentions?

18 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Steve Rosenstock, EEI.

19 I'm saying it now, yes.

20 (Laughter.)

21 MS. WILLIAMS: I don't remember that.

22 MR. BROOKMAN: Oh, I guess I
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1 misinterpreted. Sorry. Thank you. Thank you.

2 So that, and there's one other

3 correction. In the appendix, Appendix A, this

4 does not list Howard Richardson at Regal Beloit as

5 a member. So there's one name short on this list.

6 I don't know how that happened.

7 MS. WILLIAMS: I just copied it from

8 your interim report, Doug.

9 MR. BROOKMAN: I know. This is an error

10 in my interim report, one of many, in fact, that

11 were corrected by Alison.

12 (Laughter.)

13 MR. BROOKMAN: So, I just make as a

14 notation that that makes the full number of

15 members here for the working group 16. So that's

16 another correction.

17 So I believe that is -- that's all of

18 it. That is the entire term sheet. With these

19 edits, this information will be sent to ASRAC in

20 its current form. ASRAC will consider it and then

21 decide what to do with it.

22 Tom, do you want to say anything more
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1 about that?

2 MR. ECKMAN: I'll support it as far as I

3 can.

4 (Laughter.)

5 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay.

6 MR. ECKMAN: We'll see if we can get the

7 votes out of it.

8 MS. WALTNER: This is Meg again. Sorry.

9 I think I missed the language on pool

10 pumps. Could you -- I missed the discussion there.

11 I must have been calling back in. Could you go

12 back to that language just so I could see what we

13 decided on?

14 MR. BROOKMAN: Five.

15 MS. WALTNER: Okay. All right. That

16 looks all right. And you can count me as a yes

17 for that, Doug.

18 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Thank you.

19 MS. WILLIAMS: Wait. Oh. Charlie

20 didn't -- did you vote on these?

21 MR. BROOKMAN: No. He didn't.

22 MS. WALTNER: Did you already count me
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1 as a yes? Correct.

2 MS. WILLIAMS: So is my vote -- I must

3 have already counted -- oh, yes. Jeremiah gave us

4 a note that says --

5 MS. WALTNER: I might have -- I thought

6 we were just voting on the circulators part. I

7 had missed the pool pump language. And I had

8 tried to vote through the chat, and you already

9 counted me.

10 MS. WILLIAMS: Oh, yes. I counted you.

11 Sorry.

12 MS. WALTNER: Okay. That's fine.

13 MR. BROOKMAN: And I told Charlie that

14 I'd go over this with him.

15 MS. WILLIAMS: Okay.

16 MR. BROOKMAN: Whenever we break, to

17 make sure you're comfortable.

18 Did Bob brief you, so you're okay?

19 MS. WILLIAMS: Would you like to vote

20 yes?

21 MR. CAPPELLINO: I vote yes.

22 MS. WILLIAMS: Okay.
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1 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. That was Charlie.

2 So then, thanks to all of you for this

3 detailed review, consistent with the work, all

4 this working group has done all these many months,

5 very detailed review on every single thing, which

6 is good. That's the way it should be.

7 These edits will be finalized in the

8 term sheet that will be sent to ASRAC. And what

9 I'd like to do now is confirm one final time --

10 Gary, before -- Gary, just one second. I'd like

11 to confirm shortly that where all members of the

12 working group are with respect to final approval

13 of the term sheet. And then following that, any

14 other issues that anybody wishes to raise, this is

15 an opportunity to do that.

16 And also, any closing remarks, we'll do

17 that as well before we leave here today.

18 Gary Ferstrom.

19 MR. FERSTROM: This is Gary.

20 I'd like to ask that the attribution

21 behind my name be changed from the California

22 IOU's to the names of those individual utilities.
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1 MR. BROOKMAN: Thank you.

2 MR. FERSTROM: Thank you.

3 MR. BROOKMAN: Easily done.

4 Any other issues that anybody wishes to

5 raise before we seek final confirmation from the

6 working group?

7 Al Huber.

8 MR. HUBER: I really don't have an issue

9 with it, just a question. Can we -- once we vote

10 on this, if we voted, can we get a copy of this

11 before we leave, please?

12 MR. BROOKMAN: I believe --

13 MR. ADIN: Yes.

14 MR. BROOKMAN: Yes, we can. Okay.

15 MR. ADIN: You mean a printed copy or --

16 yes. Yeah, we can do that. Email is okay? Okay.

17 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Steve Rosenstock.

18 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Just a quick one, I

19 guess. I didn't check. When is the next ASRAC

20 meeting?

21 MALE VOICE: Jeremiah is working on

22 that.
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1 MR. FREEMAN: We currently have a closed

2 meeting to discuss the new working groups mid3 July. And then during that meeting, we'll discuss

4 the formal open meeting, which this will probably

5 be discussed at.

6 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Thank you very much.

7 MR. BROOKMAN: So, I'm ready to seek

8 confirmation on over six months of work from this

9 working group. And I'm very proud to have been a

10 part of this effort and to get us all to this

11 point, with you. So, I'm going to pose the

12 question now.

13 All those in favor of accepting all the

14 elements in this edited term sheet --

15 (Pause.)

16 MS. WILLIAMS: Sorry.

17 MR. BROOKMAN: Is that substantive?

18 MS. WILLIAMS: No.

19 (Laughter.)

20 MR. BROOKMAN: All those in favor of

21 accepting these final edits to this term sheet, as

22 we have edited and gone through in considerable
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1 detail this morning, please signify by raising

2 your hand.

3 And I see all members present have

4 registered they intend to vote yes.

5 Meg, are you with us?

6 MS. WALTNER: Yes.

7 MR. BROOKMAN: Thank you very much.

8 So this, I believe, concludes the work

9 of this working group. Congratulations. This has

10 been a very successful effort.

11 (Applause.)

12 MR. BROOKMAN: And now for my part, I'll

13 simply say thank you all. This has been -- it's

14 been a pleasure to work with you. And I

15 appreciate your endurance and intelligence and the

16 hard work you've put in. And I welcome any other

17 closing remarks at this point.

18 Lucas Adin.

19 MR. ADIN: I just wanted to personally

20 recognize the efforts of our analytical team.

21 They've done an enormous amount of work in support

22 of this.
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1 (Applause.)

2 MR. ADIN: And I think, as you've seen

3 based on the emails, the times the emails were

4 sent out, some late nights. So I wanted to

5 express my appreciation. So, thank you.

6 (Chorus of "Thank you.")

7 MR. BROOKMAN: Tom Eckman.

8 MR. ECKMAN: I will endeavor to carry

9 this forward to ASRAC, and I want to thank the

10 manufacturers for all of your efforts in

11 accommodating our behavior.

12 (Laughter.)

13 MR. HUBER: On behalf of the

14 manufacturers, you're welcome.

15 (Laughter.)

16 MR. HUBER: No. We really -- you know,

17 we appreciate everybody's efforts and the work

18 that's gone into this from everybody. And, you

19 know, I think it's been a good effort.

20 MR. BROOKMAN: Thank you.

21 So, yes, Charlie Cappellino.

22 MR. CAPPELLINO: Just a couple of more
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1 people to recognize here. I think, Doug, you've

2 done a fantastic job for us facilitating a fairly

3 long and lengthy process. And I can't think of a

4 better guy to kind of try and guide us through

5 this.

6 And I also wanted to thank Lucas. I

7 mean, just from a professional standpoint and at

8 least my first dealings with these kinds of

9 negotiations and such, I think Lucas has done a

10 fantastic job in kind of creating that balance,

11 right, of how do we do things and keep things

12 going right.

13 So I just wanted to recognize both of

14 you guys as well.

15 MR. BROOKMAN: Thank you very much.

16 Thank you.

17 (Applause.)

18 MR. BROOKMAN: So then, you're welcome

19 to hang around, but I wish you safe travels. I

20 think we're done. Are we done? I think we're

21 finished.

22 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Steve Rosenstock, EEI.
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1 Just as a local person here, they are

2 calling for pretty big thunderstorms this

3 afternoon. Don't know what time people's flights

4 are scheduled. You might want to try to get on an

5 earlier flight, just FYI. They are calling for

6 some pretty severe storms this afternoon.

7 MR. BARBOUR: How will we get

8 notification on these other rulemakings so that

9 we'll be able to make sure that we have our input

10 and opportunity to review those rulemakings as far

11 as like the test standards and procedures, et

12 cetera?

13 (Inaudible conversation.)

14 (Whereupon, at 11:12 a.m., the

15 meeting was adjourned.)

16

17

18

19

20

21

22
Capital Reporting Company 

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1 CERTIFICATE OF COURT REPORTER 

2 

3 

4 I, CHAZ BENNETT, the reporter before whom the 

5 foregoing hearing was taken, do hereby certify 

6 that the witness whose testimony appears in the 

7 foregoing deposition was duly sworn by me; that 

8 the testimony of said witness was recorded by me 

9 and thereafter reduced to typewriting under my 

10 direction; that said deposition is a true record 

11 of the testimony given by said witness; that I am 

12 neither counsel for, related to, nor employed by 

13 any of the parties to the action in which this 

14 deposition was taken; and, further, that I am not 

15 a relative or employee of any counselor attorney 

16 employed by the parties hereto, nor financially or 

17 otherwise interested in the outcome of this 

18 action. 

19 

20 

21 

22 

CHAZ BENNETT 

(866) 448 - DEPO 

www.CapitaIReportingCompany.com © 2012 

173 
Capital Reporting Company 

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1 CERTIFICATE OF TRANSCRIPTION 

2 

3 I , ELLEN SANDERS, hereby certify that I am not the 

4 Court Reporter who reported the following 

5 proceeding and that I have typed the transcript of 

6 this proceeding using the Court Reporter's notes 

7 and recordings. The foregoing/attached transcript 

8 is a true, correct, and complete transcription of 

9 

10 

11 

12 

13 

14 

15 

16 

17 

18 

19 

20 

21 

22 

said 

Date 

proceeding. 

ELLEN SANDERS 

Transcriptionist 

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www.CapitaIReportingCompany.com © 2012 

174 
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1

1 44:10 50:16 51:4

62:16 71:19

74:12 112:10

141:21 142:5

1,800 87:2 119:18

1.1 33:14

10 87:1 108:15

122:14 131:1

154:3

10:18 109:15

100 148:17

1000 1:12

11 44:1 47:3 91:8

97:19 120:7

121:17 131:21

138:8 143:2

148:10

11:12 172:14

12 145:2 148:7

120 87:1

13 148:15 149:11

14 117:16 151:5

15 162:17

16 163:15

19 1:7

19th 4:7

2

2 50:16 51:4 62:16

112:10

200 37:9 86:18

124:18 125:6,15

126:15 158:10

200-horsepower

30:10

2014 1:7 4:7 81:22

82:1 110:13

113:8

2015 63:2 70:21

80:15 112:20

113:4

20585 1:12

25 86:20 119:20

122:2,4,12,13

123:1,10,20

127:22

128:6,7,12,14,16

129:11,22 130:1

139:13,14,16,18

140:21

25.0 128:8

25.2 122:16

25.3 122:16

25.5 123:1

250 126:15

26 123:18

26th 81:22

27 123:18 135:18

3

3 50:17 51:4 62:16

108:2 112:10

125:14 126:10

3,600 87:2 119:18

30 71:19

31st 81:21

4

40 34:14 120:7

40.6 27:22 59:3,4,9

131:2

429.11 33:4

45 34:10

459 86:21

5

500 37:6

500-horsepower

37:7

50-stage 154:9

547/2012

121:17,19

5A 79:4 112:9

117:1

5B 78:16 113:6

117:2

6

6/19 50:5

6A 85:14

6B 85:14

6C 85:15

8

8:25 1:8

80 122:21

9

9:58 109:14

90-day 71:1

95 10:20 33:13

135:19

A

a.m 1:8 109:14,16

172:14

ABB 2:20 6:3

able 17:9 24:12

67:21 69:2 77:9

124:5 136:9

155:16 161:1

172:9

absences

116:16,18,19

117:17

absent 116:9,10

143:10 149:12

absolutely 40:19

100:1 123:13

abstain 130:20

148:8 151:2

152:18

abstained 130:16

abstention 48:9

143:10 151:4

162:16

abstentions

131:12

147:16,20 148:1

149:12 162:17

abundantly

161:22

accept 43:15 90:18

accepted 47:7

69:16

accepting 115:22

168:13,21

accommodating

170:11

accomplish 61:12

94:5 140:7

accomplished

137:6

accomplishes

32:15

accomplishing

127:5

accordance 131:2

according 13:6
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22:19

account 78:1

accurate 53:11,12

achieved 46:17

across 20:22 34:18

action 173:13,18

actual 25:4 31:7

43:5 50:7 88:9

127:12 149:17

actually 7:11

14:22 17:17 21:2

25:16 34:12,14

75:14 91:11 94:3

98:14 105:21

124:11 141:20

142:13 152:10

161:3

add 48:18,22 89:7

101:9 114:7

added 87:22

92:3,11 99:9,17

101:4 103:16

126:4 143:16,17

adding 92:5

addition 7:17

50:22 88:7

99:10,18 101:4

103:14 107:21

117:12

additional 41:17

45:8 49:16 54:13

62:18 66:10

68:16 82:2

87:11,13 88:17

112:11 113:5

117:11 118:22

131:16 143:11

149:13 151:10

additionally

107:12

add-ons 59:4

address 8:18 9:1

12:17 58:3,4

100:20

addressed 9:5

57:15 80:5

Adin 2:15 5:16

7:19 8:18 11:17

12:2,6 13:11

14:12,14 16:11

17:17 18:3,6

19:6 20:7

22:3,20

23:1,6,10,21

24:3,7,10,14,17,

21 25:3,12,17,20

26:4,8 28:4

32:14 38:3,4

39:2,21 40:9

41:8,11 42:14,20

49:4 53:19 54:8

56:19 57:15

58:5,8 68:10,11

72:10,11 73:8,17

77:6 79:21

91:11,14 94:2,14

98:17 99:1

100:6,13,16

101:14,22

102:19 103:4

104:7 105:2,18

107:11,16 109:8

115:13,18

123:11

140:4,9,19,22

141:8

142:4,12,16

144:1,4,7 152:6

156:2,4,8,12,18

161:3,9,11

167:13,15

169:18,19 170:2

adjourned 172:15

adjust 15:20 75:19

adjusting 10:17

adjustment 11:1

adopt 27:9

adopting 27:17

advance 53:3

advantage 68:16

advocates 61:20

62:19,20 71:8

112:12,13 131:8

affiliation 4:14

afford 32:7

afternoon 7:14

172:3,6

agreed 69:22 77:1

131:9

agreement 43:14

56:16 67:21 72:2

74:16

agreements

43:13,15

agricultural 136:8

ahead 16:9 45:13

55:2,6 82:20

101:7 103:22

105:19 115:11

121:21

AHRI 27:3

aim 63:1 112:19

airtight 94:7,22

Al 2:4 4:18 19:17

21:8,9 30:22

35:1 37:15

43:8,17 45:14

52:2 55:6 58:22

60:5 64:3 69:12

113:9 120:19,22

139:20

143:13,14,18

146:13

154:18,20,21

160:20,22 162:6

167:7

Alascio 2:20 6:3

align 28:6

Alison 2:18 6:1

43:21 51:14

73:22 77:13

80:11 92:9,11

93:5 97:18

103:11 109:18

112:7 114:7

118:14 125:20

129:3 143:15

160:15 161:3,21

163:11

Alison's 74:3 88:7

101:1

allow 23:12 57:12

allowance 30:14

allowed 96:7

130:17

allows 96:4

alluded 29:13

already 21:17

22:18 34:15 38:9

45:9 55:19 73:11

93:3 114:11

118:9 131:13

144:10 164:22

165:3,8

alternative 29:3

am 35:9 159:11

173:11,14 174:3

American 2:14

5:15 34:5

amiss 119:11
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among 33:19

amongst 53:4

amount 46:1

169:21

analogous 37:11

analysis 48:10

55:20 56:18

57:6,8,9 58:19

60:18 63:4 65:18

69:1 71:17 73:12

78:20 112:22

114:5

analysts 57:13

analytic 68:7

analytical 57:21

58:4,11 68:15

119:21 121:3

169:20

and/or 105:14

annual 33:10

answer 23:19

anticipate 61:9

anybody 118:6

126:5 155:13

157:16 159:1

166:14 167:4

anyone 61:16

92:13

anything 7:22 8:2

37:22 44:17

72:12 112:1

113:22 119:11

142:5 163:22

anywhere 66:3

Apologies 6:22

apologize 124:3,11

apparently 148:18

appeared 18:11

appears 173:6

appendix 163:3

Applause 169:11

170:1 171:17

apples-to-apples

146:1

Appliance 2:13

5:13

appliances 26:21

applicable 32:15

149:5

application 11:19

applications

82:10,11 83:21

84:5

applied 134:8

applies 86:19

106:14

120:12,14

apply 11:22 14:8

32:11 46:14

61:17 108:6

132:7 134:1,13

applying 132:9

appreciate 86:10

88:4 169:15

170:17

appreciation

170:5

approach 16:21

17:22 18:8,19

70:3

approaching

18:16

appropriate 9:21

10:4,11 11:5

28:9 38:7 39:10

approval 112:8

166:12

approve 62:13

92:18 107:19

approved 49:16,18

54:13 63:5

101:11 113:2,11

approximately

128:6

April 53:10 63:2

71:4

arbitrary 83:12

aren't 15:19 79:7

101:16

arrived 47:16 48:7

87:7 107:18

articulate 22:12

Ashley 8:20 17:4

19:3 41:13

aside 137:10

aspects 9:18,20

ASRAC 6:19

48:16 49:16 52:4

53:16 54:3,13

55:4,14 60:10,14

61:6,11,16 63:5

64:6 65:17

67:6,9,19,22

68:5,14,16 70:13

71:2 74:22 75:9

76:8,9

113:1,11,21

147:19 149:3

163:19,20 166:8

167:19 170:9

ASRAC-type

69:10

assessing 138:10

assets 55:10

association

27:1,7,17

associations 27:4

assuming 17:15

121:3 154:10

assumptions 69:3

assurance 10:12

29:13

assure 11:6

attain 16:2

attained 106:18

attends 59:10

attention 43:4

attorney 173:15

attribution 166:20

available 102:13

151:11,19

153:10 157:14

159:14,16,20

160:7,10,16,18

161:15

Avenue 1:12

average 10:14

132:13,14

141:11 143:3

Awareness 2:13

5:14

away 70:6,13

awful 42:9

awfully 44:18

awhile 66:20

axial 81:15

axially 81:17

B

back-and-forth

52:14

background 42:18
Capital Reporting Company

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44:14 49:1 127:7

back-of-the 76:4

backup 52:19

bad 30:18 115:17

balance 171:10

ballgame 37:20

Baltimore 4:11

Barbour 4:17

8:4,5,10 41:20

63:11

96:16,17,21

97:16 98:1,5

101:8

104:1,15,18

105:4,16

141:14,17

142:2,5,8,13

147:12,13 148:3

172:7

bare 22:15,19

23:14,16 24:4,16

31:2 46:2,13

131:3 133:19

134:3,6 135:4

145:6,7,8,22

146:4,5

base 16:22

based 9:13 10:6,21

12:9 13:17 14:15

16:16 18:10

23:17 25:7

33:9,16,18 57:21

72:20 73:9 98:20

99:2,10,19 101:5

103:15 104:21

105:6 106:22

107:22 124:16

129:7 138:15

145:3 151:7

170:3

basic 9:11 11:22

12:3 13:15,19

14:15 16:15 19:9

23:13 32:16 33:8

68:22 97:3

98:7,9,14,18

basically 13:11

19:8,13 33:2

36:1 71:2 80:4

83:10 85:6

basics 82:12

basis 23:13 48:9

60:13 101:16

103:18 108:4

131:18 136:10

bearings 47:17

beforehand 73:11

begin 4:3 13:19

49:21 63:6 113:2

beginning 42:18

43:12 92:14

behalf 170:13

behavior 170:11

behind 166:21

believe 7:21 42:12

57:17 75:22

89:19 116:22

117:4 127:16

160:22 162:15

163:17 167:12

169:8

believing 39:15

Beloit 7:12 163:4

Belts 102:2

beneficial 45:4

benefit 73:11

Bennett 1:16

173:4,21

BEP 86:19,21,22

125:7 149:5

Berkeley 2:18 6:2

best 8:19 38:11

40:20 122:6,18

123:7 141:2

better 20:6

25:14,15 33:17

34:13 36:18

60:19 71:13

95:21 105:8

109:4 121:16

123:16 128:4

160:17 171:4

beyond 58:10

bidding 35:16

bigger 29:22 30:3

50:12

bit 6:21 8:7 10:18

11:1 12:14 15:13

25:9 39:7 40:2

43:4 59:9 79:22

122:13 126:12

Bob 4:17 8:4,5

41:20 63:10,11

96:16,17 100:1

101:7,8 104:1,18

141:13,14,16,17

147:12,13

165:18

body 68:8

Boteler 2:21 6:4

99:21,22

100:10,18

bottom 30:9

137:18

bound 123:10

bowl 87:3

bracket 87:18

bracketed 89:1

90:19 138:9

brackets 87:20

90:20 91:21

92:2,8,17 93:4,7

98:7 118:10

120:8

brainer 131:18

break 65:6 66:6

107:20 109:7,10

114:3 118:2

127:13 148:16

165:16

Brenda 109:9

brief 109:22

148:16 165:18

briefly 57:15

bring 26:5 126:21

148:3

broad 45:6

Brookman 2:2

4:2,10 5:19,21

6:6 7:6,20 8:8,12

11:13,18 12:5,22

13:20 19:1,14

21:8 26:2,10

28:2,19 29:17

30:19 32:3 34:2

35:1 36:22

38:3,12

41:6,9,14

42:6,17,21 44:9

45:2,12,16

46:7,20 47:4,6

48:2,5 49:2,8,12

50:14,18,21

51:4,8,13,18

55:2 56:5 57:14

58:21 59:22 61:8

62:5,10 64:13,19

65:3,6,9,12

66:4,7,16,18,21

67:1,10,17 68:3
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69:12,18

70:2,10,14

71:5,10,15

72:6,10,14,20

73:1,5,18,22

74:8,13,15

75:1,4,6,17 76:7

77:5,12,19

78:6,11

79:9,12,19 80:10

81:4,7 82:15

83:1,5,16

84:6,9,14,17,21

85:4,10,18,21

86:5,8 88:5

89:2,4,18

90:10,13

91:7,13,16

92:5,10 93:1

95:1,4,8

96:2,13,16 97:13

98:3 99:21

100:22 101:19

102:2,14

103:8,20

104:12,17

107:8,17 108:18

109:3,12,17

110:14,17 111:3

112:4,17

113:18,21

114:10,22

115:11,16,19

116:4,8,10,12,18

117:3,8,19,21

118:22 119:5,9

120:16,19

121:12,18,20,22

123:22 124:8,12

125:3,9,12,20

126:7 127:6

128:2,9 129:9,14

130:5,8,18,21

134:15,19

137:15 138:7,14

139:1,20 141:15

142:18

144:9,13,22

145:12 146:13

147:7,9

148:2,9,13,20

149:19

150:8,15,18

151:3 152:17

154:20 160:4,20

161:19

162:5,14,22

163:9,13

164:5,14,18,21

165:13,16 166:1

167:1,3,12,14,17

168:7,17,20

169:7,12

170:7,20

171:15,18

brought 20:3

build 100:2

building 30:1

bulk 63:8

bullet 61:2 80:13

95:12 101:4

113:1 117:12

118:4 137:17

151:10 160:6,15

bullets 49:19

bunch 29:11 34:6

burden 9:18 22:8

29:9

burdens 17:1

business 19:2 30:2

109:9

busy 78:5

buy 17:15 18:7

24:19 30:9 31:19

34:5 36:12,20

buying 31:21

C

calculate 23:4

calculated 21:19

34:7,9,15 126:2

143:4 149:8

calculation 21:12

23:12,14,18 24:6

25:7 31:3 32:1

76:5

calculations 46:13

132:6 133:22

134:4

calendar

110:14,15,16

113:8

California 5:6,8,9

97:10 166:21

capacity 44:11

49:21

Capital 1:16

Cappellino 2:3

4:15 30:19,20,21

31:11 32:8

114:17

139:1,2,7,18

160:13,14

165:21

170:21,22

captured 11:21

136:19

captures 63:8

card 109:9

care 44:7

carefully 13:21

88:6

carried 131:7

carry 170:8

case 2:6 4:20 12:6

32:10 79:17

89:5,6,22

90:6,12 117:1

151:12,18

156:13,22

158:16,18 161:5

162:3,11,16

cases 10:19 17:5

28:10 147:1

153:13 160:1

casting 130:10

castings 14:22

15:14 29:15

categories 50:16

98:9,16

category 63:16

caucus 52:5 64:17

65:7 79:12 80:16

86:2 88:21 96:22

109:21 111:4

131:4,8

causes 19:22

Celsius 87:1

centimeters

150:10,13

certain 10:4 13:8

18:20 20:13

35:13 131:5

148:17

certainly 29:21

36:4 90:3 103:2

certainty 17:7

152:9

CERTIFICATE

173:1 174:1

certification 9:2

16:13,14 19:7

26:22 41:12 97:4

98:7 104:3,9,20
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105:5 106:14

108:5 135:3

148:14 149:1,14

151:6

certified 9:12

14:14 16:13 33:8

105:3,4 106:5

107:21

151:13,20

certify 13:19 16:9

19:7,11 23:8

24:5,12 30:7

173:5 174:3

certifying 13:16

19:8 32:17

cetera 27:12 82:12

108:22 172:12

challenge 93:15

challenging 72:16

chance 41:3 64:22

88:8 116:13

change 54:12

60:11 100:8,19

105:12 126:22

130:16,18

132:21 133:6

147:14

148:8,12,13

151:2 152:18

changeable 54:20

changed 130:7

139:4 166:21

changes 43:19

118:17

changing 115:14

137:10

characteristics

9:17 10:9 86:16

99:13 101:15

103:18 108:3

127:3

characterizations

47:21

characterize 28:5

40:6 50:9 51:20

Charlie 2:3 4:15

28:20 30:19,21

31:10 32:3,9

114:17 115:5

126:9 127:11

139:1 160:13,14

164:19 165:13

166:1 170:21

chat 165:8

Chaz 1:16

173:4,21

cheap 59:16

check 7:1 114:22

167:19

choice 146:4

choose 36:5

Chorus 56:8 129:5

170:6

circulator 52:9

62:16 66:8

72:12,17

circulators 49:14

50:16 52:6 59:6

62:15 63:14,21

64:5 67:5 73:4

75:14 77:22 78:9

81:2 112:9 165:6

circumstances

17:18

CL 132:2,3 138:17

143:2 144:8

145:6,11,21

146:21 149:5,7

clarification 58:13

68:11,12 79:22

89:7 92:11,12

95:7 98:13 107:9

117:9 121:13

125:11 126:5

142:19 152:7

clarifies 118:4

clarify 20:5 88:1

95:11 96:21

97:19 107:12

121:1 143:20

152:22 153:5

clarifying 124:14

151:10 155:14

clarity 122:2 139:3

144:2

class 149:4

classes 120:15

clean 85:7

88:13,14

89:8,9,11,16

90:2,8,21 91:1

93:9,13,17,19

94:11,12,20 96:3

118:11 161:17

clear 67:14 91:14

100:17

102:15,21

123:11,13 139:8

141:10 154:6

155:7 161:22

clearer 161:11

clearly 15:12

close 47:18 65:10

112:5 123:20

128:9

closed 80:19 168:1

closely 28:5

closest 155:21

closing 166:16

169:17

closure 55:22

56:1,5 65:19

Coast 97:13

codify 68:7

colleagues 113:11

collect 40:13 41:2

combination 159:3

comes 34:10

116:13

comfortable

16:2,8 39:3

43:12 62:1 69:14

79:11 90:15

93:10 119:9

127:9 165:17

coming 45:7

54:1,4,6 60:5

81:3 91:17 94:4

commence 55:15

61:5

comment 26:3,11

51:5 82:8 87:10

101:10 103:7

124:2,10 160:21

comments 41:17

44:19 46:20 47:1

82:2 87:12 119:1

131:16 143:11

Commercial 4:5

Commercial/

Industrial

1:4,11

commitment

57:12 63:3

112:21

committee 52:9

53:16 64:6 67:20
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68:1 147:19

common 157:13

Company 1:16

5:7,8,9

compared 146:10

comparison 146:1

complete 48:5

76:22 108:10

174:8

completed 72:4

completely 38:5

73:3

compliance 9:1

13:15 41:12

120:2,12,13

138:10

compliant 11:6

16:15 17:21

18:12 19:12

20:16 21:2 32:17

complicated 69:20

comply 97:7 135:2

components 23:14

45:22

concept 57:3

concern 30:5 57:2

72:13 98:1

concerned 60:2

86:3 88:22

126:14 137:1

concerns 144:14

concluded 81:20

concludes 169:8

confidence 10:20

33:13

configuration 99:4

145:3

configurations

46:5

confirm 6:16 15:2

43:6 93:1 115:5

166:9,11

confirmation

15:13 69:7 93:4

167:5 168:8

confirmed 115:4

117:4

confirming 117:10

119:12

conflicts 126:11

confusing

96:10,12 106:9

Congratulations

130:13 169:9

congruent 90:22

consecutive 6:8

consensus 27:17

43:7 44:16 45:10

48:8 143:9

conservation 2:11

5:11 46:14

119:16,19 120:5

132:6 134:1

conservative 33:18

consider 9:20

16:18 20:14

28:8,13,16 37:21

38:6 77:10 88:9

163:20

considerable 45:7

82:3 87:4,6

109:19 129:18

147:10 148:21

168:22

consideration

31:10 72:15

132:12 137:14

considerations

38:10

considering 10:8

11:8 53:19,20

54:1 68:19 98:18

consistent

90:10,21 102:16

114:13 117:10

138:4,16 141:2,5

144:9 166:3

constant 146:8

constrained 57:18

58:2

construct 96:14

constructed

138:15

construction 86:9

construed 132:19

consult 109:21

consultants 58:17

63:4 112:22

consumer

33:20,21

consumption

33:11

contains 6:13

Cont'd 3:1

content 6:13,15,16

8:3 82:8

87:12,13 124:4

context 79:3

contiguity 87:11

contiguous 85:11

continue 114:12

continues 42:11

continuing 59:18

contract 21:5

control 29:13

146:15,16 147:5

controls 46:3

135:22 137:7

143:5 145:9,22

146:10,11,18

controversial

44:18

convention 91:7

conversation

41:19 45:15 50:1

51:17 56:22

70:18 97:22

100:21 101:21

105:9 109:22

115:6 129:8

144:10 145:19

148:16 151:16

172:13

Conversely 30:16

copied 154:4 163:7

copies 7:17,21

copy 7:15,16 8:14

167:10,15

Corporation 2:21

6:5

correct 7:18 13:11

28:7 39:17 43:21

77:3 97:19

108:22 110:2

113:12 121:6

142:1,11,15

165:1 174:8

corrected 52:2

163:11

correction 145:13

163:3,16

cost 17:16 22:8
Capital Reporting Company

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Council 2:11 5:11

counsel 173:12,15

count 116:12

131:11

164:16,22

counted

165:3,9,10

counting 73:22

couple 44:13 78:22

170:22

coupled 47:18

course 46:4 131:13

Court 173:1

174:4,6

cover 46:11 92:6

94:12 105:16

137:4,5

coverage 99:5

101:16

covered 9:12

44:21 99:1,6,14

101:12 144:22

160:1

covering 105:7

136:17

covers 160:12

CP 50:16 51:4

62:16 112:10

create 66:1

creating 38:18

41:7 171:10

criteria 20:19

Cross-talk 24:1

44:6 54:21 82:19

97:15 113:13

120:21 122:19

139:12 150:6

157:1

crown 129:17

crude 10:18

crunch 68:22

current 129:9

163:20

currently 12:12

14:5 132:18

168:1

curves 135:5

customer 35:15

146:3 147:1

customers 36:5,19

cut 119:20 127:22

128:12

cutoff 139:15,16

140:2,3,5,15

cuts 139:13

cutting 128:20

D

D.C 1:12

Dan 2:17 5:22

121:21,22

dark 39:16 40:7

data 16:9 17:10

148:22 152:9

database 119:22

121:3,4,8

122:21,22 129:7

149:1

date 49:20 67:4,11

70:16,20 72:4,12

80:17

120:2,12,13

174:14

dates 44:15 81:13

day 6:8,10,19 8:21

17:5 19:3 50:2

157:3

deal 75:13

dealings 171:8

decide 24:11 79:14

163:21

decided 38:9 77:18

94:3 164:13

decimal 139:10

decision 20:17

39:1 58:20

decisions 39:9

40:16

declaration 19:5

dedicated 49:15

51:15 62:17

78:18 113:7

default 16:20

134:7 135:4

define 90:9 93:19

125:22

defined 20:19

45:22 94:12

104:10 137:10

143:8

defines 102:5

125:2

defining 93:20

124:19

definition 44:21

45:3,6,20 51:2

88:18 89:9,14,20

90:2,7 91:1

93:9,12 94:11,20

95:17 96:3

100:2,11 118:12

124:15

definitions 51:6,7

degrading 15:14

degrees 87:1

deleted 101:2

118:3

demonstrate 135:3

department 1:3

2:15 4:5 7:14

12:15 13:4

16:13,14 42:8

54:2,8 58:8

68:18 69:9

department's 54:9

departure 150:5

dependent 9:16

39:3

depending 52:13

depends 17:17

21:4 27:13 35:2

122:20

deposition

173:7,10,14

derive 143:6

describe 44:14

described 93:8

description 50:17

120:1

design 86:22

designated 151:21

designed 33:20

87:1 88:13,14

94:19

desk 109:10

detail 43:5 82:3

129:18 169:1

detailed 8:3 41:3,4

47:11 116:1

151:15 166:3,5

details 20:11
Capital Reporting Company

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deteriorated 29:16

determine 10:3,5

12:3,8 38:6

93:17

determined 34:1

determining 9:21

10:11 11:5 131:3

develop 14:21

developing 15:3

development

59:2,3 114:6

deviation 10:21

dialog 39:18

diameter 24:16

86:18 87:3

97:3,5 98:6

99:11,20 101:3,6

102:6,8,22

103:16 104:21

105:6,14

106:12,15,19

107:12,13

108:1,6,8 117:11

118:3,5 124:17

125:1,8,17,22

126:3,18 127:4

143:16,22 145:7

149:7,22 150:3

157:21,22

diameters

106:11,16

149:17

dictating 16:1

Diego 5:8

difference 37:16

different 15:11

18:13,15,18

19:16 31:5 34:18

37:19 40:4 46:5

51:12 91:10

135:17,20,22

difficult 89:12

digits 128:22

129:4

diligent

15:13,18,19

direct 68:17

directed 42:7

direction 19:16

173:10

directly 18:19

138:21

disagree 97:1

100:4 123:14

discharge 152:15

discuss 168:2,3

discussed 107:3

131:3 140:11

143:19 152:12

168:5

discussing 6:12

58:10

discussion 38:13

42:1 46:2 47:12

50:5,13 63:14

81:11 87:5,7

90:11 93:14,18

106:1 112:1

114:3 118:2

119:13 146:14

147:10 148:21

150:17 164:10

dispense 56:13

displacement

81:15 84:1

disposal 55:10

dissent 90:4

distracted 11:20

divided 33:14

doable 65:21

document 42:4

47:20 80:3 86:1

DOE 5:16 9:11,20

13:7 16:12,17

17:15,18 20:1

26:22

27:1,6,8,16,22

37:5 39:15 40:10

49:21 53:22

55:12 56:17 57:5

60:1 63:2,3,20

65:22 68:2 69:15

71:20 76:20

78:19 80:1

93:16,21 94:3

110:6,12

112:20,21 113:6

114:4,10 119:21

121:2 131:5

135:3,15 136:5

137:3 141:2

149:3 151:21

DOE's 57:12

58:16,17

domain 138:17

done 17:14 20:2

26:22 27:1 37:5

41:13 42:8 43:3

48:11 53:21

55:19 60:17

71:17 73:10,19

76:11,12 92:19

104:10 109:18

113:22

138:12,16 166:4

167:3 169:21

171:2,9,20

double 81:16 84:2

doubt 156:16,17

Doug 2:2,14 4:10

5:15 66:15 68:10

82:7 103:8,11

104:14

105:11,19 115:8

117:1 120:11

130:14 161:12

163:8 164:17

171:1

draft 7:15 112:19

drag 72:21

draw 88:15

drive 22:22 30:10

driver 46:3 87:2,6

132:17 134:22

135:11,18,21

136:1,2,20 143:5

drivers 46:12,15

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74:2,5,7,10

76:3,6,16 77:4

78:10 92:22

96:20 97:12

100:5 108:17

111:2 112:3

115:7 119:8

122:5,8 128:17

129:2 130:4

144:21 162:20

163:12 164:4

168:19

170:12,15

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150:1

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106:21 156:9

158:12 159:16

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62:5,12 74:15

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109:7 112:5

123:11 146:4

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17:7 33:18

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12:14 15:12 20:5

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114:2 122:13

126:12 144:5

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long 90:6 171:3

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41:18 42:9

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91:8 93:13

119:13 120:7

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160:10

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main 9:19

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37:18

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18:4,19 19:4

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157:7

manufacturers
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170:10,14

manufacturing

29:12 131:4

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112:20

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29:1

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123:8

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130:2 139:15

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94:10,16 95:3,6

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17:6 29:3 30:2

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124:7,10,14

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20:7,13,14,18

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52:17 53:7,11

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68:15 69:15

71:20 72:11

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76:10 77:6,10,22

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90:4 93:14 97:13

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101:17 102:22

103:13

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105:20 115:11

120:12 123:8

128:18 140:12

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60:14 88:18

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147:19 167:20

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Microphone

134:15

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163:1

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101:5 102:13

103:15 104:20

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66:12 70:7,8

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45:18 46:9 47:7

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82:5 87:9 92:20

116:21 118:8

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52:4,5 55:5

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112:11 113:2

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151:13,20

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119:17 129:15

139:4 151:9,19

152:2 153:15,17

155:17

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157:20 158:19

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51:10 139:17,19

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134:2,21 135:16

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non-electric

46:11,15 132:7

134:13 135:18

136:6
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67:4,11,14 68:2

70:16,20,22 71:6

72:18 75:6 77:9

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108:22 113:3

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52:11,13,16

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150:12,15,19,21

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originally 74:21

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101:15 103:17

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ours 158:9

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outcome 173:17

out-of-scope 47:9

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outside 54:3

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overall 10:15

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overstep 52:2

P

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parentheses 48:19

parenthesis 121:2

parses 60:3

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116:7 117:7,20

119:4 152:16

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138:11,17

139:5,9,10,15,22

140:12,16,21

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49:11 63:17

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14:21 15:2,14

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point 36:8 37:14

38:4 44:2 50:6
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policy 58:3 68:17

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62:17

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64:8,9,11,15

66:10 72:13,18

73:2 78:18

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80:19 81:3

109:21 110:8

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11:3,8 13:13

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86:19

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preamble

42:13,15,19

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prefer 85:22

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53:6,10 54:11

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92:21

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33:2 37:12

38:7,10 42:10

53:21 81:21

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professional 171:7

profile 143:6
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progress 6:10

109:4,12

progression 95:2

Project 2:13 5:14

projected 67:4,11

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prompt 19:22

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proposal 12:18

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