### Capital Reporting Company

Commercial Industrial Pumps Working Group 06-19-2014

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2012 1

DEPARTMENT OF ENERGY COMMERCIAL/INDUSTRIAL PUMPS WORKING GROUP

Thursday, June 19, 2014 8:25 a.m.

Commercial/Industrial Pumps Working Group 1000 Independence Avenue, SW Washington, D.C. 20585

Reported by: Chaz Bennett, RPR/CSR, Capital Reporting Company

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Commercial Industrial Pumps Working Group 06-19-2014

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2012 2 1 A P P E A R A N C E S 2 Doug Brookman, Working Group Facilitator 3 Charlie Cappellino, ITT 4 Al Huber, Patterson 5 Mark Handzel, Xylem 6 Greg Case, Hydraulic Institute 7 Greg Towsley, Grundfos 8 Jay Sivigny, Flowserve 9 Steve Rosenstock, Edison Electric Institute 10 Gary Ferstrom, Pacific Gas & Electric 11 Tom Eckman, Norwest Power and Conservation Council 12 Louis Starr, NEEA 13 Joanna Mauer, Appliance Standards Awareness Project 14 Doug Potts, American Water 15 Lucas Adin, U.S. Department of Energy 16 Sara Widder, Pacific Northwest National Laboratory 17 Dan Weintraub, Navigant 18 Alison Williams, Lawrence Berkeley National 19 Laboratory 20 Jeff Alascio, ABB 21 Rob Boteler, NIDEC Motor Corporation 22

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Commercial Industrial Pumps Working Group 06-19-2014

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2012 3 1 A P P E A R A N C E S (Cont'd) 2 Present via telephone: Meg Waltner 3 Joanna Mauer Jennifer McGrath 4 Also present: 5 Jeremiah Freeman 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22

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Commercial Industrial Pumps Working Group 06-19-2014

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2012 4 1 P R O C E E D I N G S 2 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Are we ready to 3 begin? Let's start. Good morning, everyone. 4 Welcome. So glad to see you this morning. This 5 is the U.S. Department of Energy's Commercial and 6 Industrial Pumps Negotiated Rulemaking Working 7 Group. Today is June 19th, 2014. This is the 8 seventh meeting of this working group. I'm so 9 happy to see you this morning. 10 My name is Doug Brookman, from Public 11 Solutions in Baltimore. We will start, as we 12 typically do, with introductions around the room. 13 To my immediate left first, name and 14 organizational affiliation. 15 MR. CAPPELLINO: Charlie Cappellino, 16 ITT. 17 MR. BARBOUR: Bob Barbour, Taco. 18 MR. HUBER: Al Huber, Patterson. 19 MR. HANDZEL: Mark Handzel, Xylem. 20 MR. CASE: Greg Case, Hydraulic 21 Institute. 22 MR. TOWSLEY: Greg Towsley, Grundfos.

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Commercial Industrial Pumps Working Group 06-19-2014

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2012 5 1 MR. SIVIGNY: Jay Sivigny, Flowserve. 2 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Steve Rosenstock, 3 Edison Electric Institute. 4 MR. FERSTROM: Gary Ferstrom, 5 representing the 6 California investor-owned utilities: 7 Pacific Gas and Electric Company, the Southern 8 California Edison Company, San Diego Gas and 9 Electric, and Southern California Gas Company. 10 MR. ECKMAN: Tom Eckman, Northwest Power 11 and Conservation Council. 12 MR. STARR: Louis Starr, NEEA. 13 MS. MAUER: Joanna Mauer, Appliance 14 Standards Awareness Project. 15 MR. POTTS: Doug Potts, American Water. 16 MR. ADIN: Lucas Adin, DOE. 17 MS. WIDDER: Sara Widder, Pacific 18 Northwest National Labs (inaudible). 19 MR. BROOKMAN: It's okay. 20 (Laughter.) 21 MR. BROOKMAN: We'll probably need it. 22 MR. WEINTRAUB: Dan Weintraub, Navigant.

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Commercial Industrial Pumps Working Group 06-19-2014

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2012 6 1 MR. WILLIAMS: Alison Williams, Lawrence 2 Berkeley National Lab. 3 MR. ALASCIO: Jeff Alascio, ABB. 4 MR. BOTELER: Rob Boteler, NIDEC Motor 5 Corporation. 6 MR. BROOKMAN: Again, welcome all. Glad 7 to see you this morning. 8 This is the third consecutive day of 9 meetings for this working group. We've made big 10 progress yesterday and the day before. And we're 11 hoping today we will look at the term sheet that 12 we've been discussing. The term sheet, we hope, 13 contains the content that we've negotiated over 14 the span of the last over six months now. All of 15 the content, all of the votes are listed there. 16 And we hope today to confirm the content 17 of the term sheet and take a final vote that would 18 be the recommendation from this working group to 19 ASRAC. So that's the principal goal of the day 20 today. 21 We had a little bit of a late start. 22 Apologies to the group. Didn't have someone down

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Commercial Industrial Pumps Working Group 06-19-2014

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2012 7 1 there to check us in. So I'm glad to get this 2 underway here. 3 Meg Waltner said she'd be joining us 4 online. 5 MR. FREEMAN: She's online. 6 MR. BROOKMAN: She's on. Well, Meg, 7 it's early out there. Glad you could join us. 8 And Steve Rosenstock, glad you could 9 join us. 10 So, we have all of our members present. 11 Well, actually, we're missing one. We are missing 12 Howard Richardson at Regal Beloit and their 13 representative. So, everyone else is present. 14 Yesterday afternoon, the department sent 15 out a copy of the draft term sheet. All of us 16 have a copy of that electronically. And in 17 addition, we're having some copies printed. 18 Is that correct, Lucas? 19 MR. ADIN: Yes. 20 MR. BROOKMAN: So we'll have paper 21 copies for you to look at here shortly, I believe. 22 But I was wondering if there's anything

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Commercial Industrial Pumps Working Group 06-19-2014

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2012 8 1 else that we'd like to raise or any statements or 2 anything at the outset before we jump into this 3 more detailed content. 4 Bob Barbour. 5 MR. BARBOUR: Bob Barbour with Taco. 6 I was just wondering if we're going to 7 talk a little bit about the sampling sizes. 8 MR. BROOKMAN: You raised that 9 yesterday. 10 MR. BARBOUR: Before we get into the 11 term sheet. 12 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Okay. Let's do 13 that, because I think it would be nice to have a 14 paper copy of the term sheet to look at rather 15 than these small screens. 16 Who's in a position to -- Lucas, you 17 want to start with sampling size? 18 MR. ADIN: So, I'll try and address that 19 the best I can with the understanding that that's 20 something that I think, as Ashley pointed out the 21 other day, that that's something we're going to 22 have to handle through a separate rulemaking,

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Commercial Industrial Pumps Working Group 06-19-2014

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2012 9 1 address some of these other compliance and 2 certification issues that are part and parcel to 3 implementing this whole rulemaking. 4 So, I think she had explained generally 5 how sampling is addressed for all the other 6 products that we regulate, for the most part. I 7 mean, there are a few exceptions like motors and 8 transformers and other things that have unique 9 sampling plans. 10 But by and large, the general 11 requirement that DOE has is that for each basic 12 model of a covered product, the certified rating 13 has to be based on a tested sample of at least two 14 units. 15 Now, there are -- like I said, there are 16 exceptions, and that's dependent upon the 17 characteristics of the products and the test 18 burden and, you know, any other aspects of -- 19 well, those are the two main things, but any other 20 aspects that DOE would need to consider in 21 determining what's appropriate. 22 So that's part of it. When we talk

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Commercial Industrial Pumps Working Group 06-19-2014

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2012 10 1 about the sampling plan, it's the minimum sample 2 of two or whatever the minimum is going to be for 3 that product, whatever we determine is 4 appropriate. And then there's certain statistics 5 that we use to determine what's representative for 6 the rating for that, based on the sample that 7 you've tested. 8 So, considering the variability and 9 production characteristics, and then any test 10 variability, you have a statistical method for 11 determining what the appropriate rating is so that 12 you have a reasonable assurance that the number 13 that you got straight out of the test, that 14 average value, is likely to be representative of 15 the overall population of products that are out 16 there. 17 So you're essentially adjusting it a 18 little bit. I mean, this is a very crude way of 19 explaining it. But now you have in most cases 20 like a 95 percent confidence interval, and you're 21 saying, you know, based on the standard deviation 22 between the units that you tested, you know,

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Commercial Industrial Pumps Working Group 06-19-2014

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2012 11 1 there's a little bit of an adjustment to reflect 2 that there may be some variability in the overall 3 population. 4 And so part of the sampling plan is 5 determining also what the appropriate statistical 6 level is to assure that that product is compliant 7 and that the rating that you got is representative 8 of the overall population when considering the 9 likely variation between units and the rating that 10 you've measured. 11 So, I don't know if that explanation 12 makes sense. 13 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Gary Ferstrom. 14 MR. FERSTROM: This is Gary. That was 15 an excellent lesson in statistics. Thank you. 16 (Laughter.) 17 MR. ADIN: My pleasure. 18 MR. BROOKMAN: And thinking about the 19 application, would the sampling plan -- pardon me. 20 I got a little distracted in the middle of that 21 lesson. So I'm not sure I captured all of it. 22 Would the sampling plan apply to every basic

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Commercial Industrial Pumps Working Group 06-19-2014

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2012 12 1 model? 2 MR. ADIN: Yes. So, the sampling plan 3 is used to determine the rating for each basic 4 model that you've tested. 5 MR. BROOKMAN: Yep. 6 MR. ADIN: So, in each case in which you 7 perform a test, you perform a test on this sample 8 of units from production. And you determine a 9 rating based on this statistical formula. 10 And I mean, we can, if it's helpful, 11 provide an example of what that looks like just so 12 you all know what we're using currently, with the 13 understanding that you may need to think about it 14 a little bit to provide useful feedback to the 15 department. 16 I mean, again, this is a thing that 17 we're going to address through rulemaking down the 18 road. We'll make a proposal once you've all had 19 the opportunity to think more about it. 20 Hopefully, you can provide us with some informed 21 feedback about it. 22 MR. BROOKMAN: And we have another

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Commercial Industrial Pumps Working Group 06-19-2014

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2012 13 1 question or two. But before we go there, and just 2 so -- the way this will play out on the 3 enforcement side, so this industry is new to all 4 of this. So the department will occasionally, or 5 when prompted, pull random units. And then they 6 will test them according to the method that, the 7 prescribed DOE method, test method. 8 And then they will make certain -- they 9 will see if the established efficiency rating, 10 whether that unit meets that established rating. 11 MR. ADIN: That's basically correct. 12 So, where we do any random sampling of the 13 population of units that are out in production in 14 the market, you know, to the extent we're going to 15 verify compliance of that particular basic model 16 with the standard and verify that its certifying 17 rating is valid, it would be based on the same 18 sampling plan and testing method that was used to 19 certify the basic model to begin with. 20 MR. BROOKMAN: I'm trying to walk 21 through this carefully here because you all are 22 new to this.

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Commercial Industrial Pumps Working Group 06-19-2014

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2012 14 1 Mark Handzel. 2 MR. HANDZEL: Mark Handzel from Xylem. 3 So, I'll start some of our feedback. 4 So, obviously, we've all been trying to 5 understand, what do we currently do, just so that 6 we have some reference? And I guess some of the 7 questions that we're getting to is, how does that 8 sample size apply? Does it really only apply when 9 you're going to be doing your testing? Or do we 10 have to use that same sampling, sample size as 11 well? 12 MR. ADIN: It's both. 13 MR. HANDZEL: Okay. 14 MR. ADIN: Yeah. So the certified 15 rating of a basic model has to be based on the use 16 of that sampling plan. 17 MR. HANDZEL: Right. Right. And, you 18 know, just to give you some ideas, you know, some 19 of us use, you know, for example, one pump volute, 20 and then use multiple impellers in the 21 qualification process to develop performance. And 22 then when we actually go to production castings,

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Commercial Industrial Pumps Working Group 06-19-2014

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2012 15 1 you know, then we will pull stuff off the line and 2 confirm we're still hitting those same performance 3 outputs that we were developing when we were doing 4 the qualification. 5 So, you know, when you get up in the 6 super- larger pumps, we typically might just take 7 one volute and maybe one impeller and use that, 8 and again use the same sampling process once we go 9 into production. 10 So, you know, we have a variety of 11 different ways that we do it. But I think, 12 clearly, we're all going to have to be a little 13 bit more diligent in our confirmation that our 14 performance is not degrading as castings wear and, 15 you know, patterns wear and things like that. 16 So, I think that's something that's 17 going to be new to the industry that we're all 18 going to have to -- some of us are diligent; some 19 of us are less diligent; some aren't diligent at 20 all. So the industry will have to adjust to this. 21 But I think we're just trying to 22 understand, do we have to use the same sample size

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Commercial Industrial Pumps Working Group 06-19-2014

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2012 16 1 method that you're dictating? Or if we're 2 comfortable with our method that we can attain and 3 hold -- you know, if you asked us to send us two 4 samples of that model, obviously, they've got to 5 come off of our production line. We can't touch 6 them, you know, in terms of making sure they can 7 make performance. 8 But if we're comfortable saying, "Go 9 ahead," and we still certify that data, can we use 10 our own sampling method? 11 MR. ADIN: So, the normal -- the way 12 that the DOE regulations work right now is 13 certification to the department, and the certified 14 rating and the certification of the department 15 that a particular basic model is compliant with 16 the standard has to be based on the sampling plan 17 that DOE has established for that type of product. 18 So, I mean, to the extent we consider 19 using something other than two, for example, which 20 is sort of the normal default for everything else, 21 you know, we approach that through the rulemaking 22 and we base it on whatever input you have about

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Commercial Industrial Pumps Working Group 06-19-2014

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2012 17 1 the test burdens and the likelihood of, you know - 2 - whether variability in production and testing 3 would matter that much. 4 I mean, Ashley was sort of indicating 5 the other day that in some cases, a sample of one 6 may be perfectly fine if you have a very high 7 level of certainty that it's just not likely that 8 things are going to vary that much. But, you 9 know, again, we'd have to be able to establish 10 that through data and evidence and that kind of 11 thing. 12 MR. HANDZEL: So, Mark Handzel. 13 Just some follow-on questions, too, and 14 Lucas, again, we haven't done this before. So I'm 15 assuming the DOE doesn't buy these products for 16 us; we're required to supply them at no cost? 17 MR. ADIN: It actually depends on the 18 circumstances. So, when DOE does what we've 19 referred to generally as verification testing, 20 where we're just randomly sampling products from 21 the market to see if they are compliant with the 22 standard, our typical approach is to purchase them

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Commercial Industrial Pumps Working Group 06-19-2014

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2012 18 1 from retail. 2 MR. HANDZEL: Okay. 3 MR. ADIN: So we're not going to the 4 manufacturer and saying, "Give us two pumps." 5 MR. HANDZEL: Okay, great. 6 MR. ADIN: Or whatever it is going to 7 be. We're going to go out and buy them. And so 8 that's the normal approach. 9 And now, if we were to test a product, 10 and based on the testing of that sample of 11 products it appeared that the product was not 12 compliant with the standard, then we'd proceed to 13 a different process that we call the enforcement 14 testing process. 15 Typically, I mean, there are different 16 ways of approaching that. But generally speaking, 17 if you're going to go to enforcement testing, then 18 there's a different process for that. And then we 19 do approach the manufacturer directly and require 20 a certain sample of products supplied at their 21 expense, and that kind of thing. So, generally 22 speaking, that's how things would typically work.

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Commercial Industrial Pumps Working Group 06-19-2014

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2012 19 1 MR. BROOKMAN: I don't know much about 2 this enforcement business. I really do not. But 3 I recall that Ashley said the first day we were 4 here, on Tuesday, that each manufacturer is asked 5 to make a declaration and sign. Yes? 6 MR. ADIN: So that's part of the 7 certification report. So when you certify, you 8 send in your form, basically, certifying all your 9 basic models. There's a line in there that, you 10 know, essentially you're putting your signature on 11 there saying, "I certify under penalty of perjury 12 that all these products are compliant with the 13 standard." That's basically what it is. 14 MR. BROOKMAN: Steve, I want to stay in 15 this same stream with these before I go down a 16 different direction. 17 Jay first, and then Al. 18 MR. SIVIGNY: Jay Sivigny, Flowserve. 19 Lucas, you gave some good information, 20 and I was just jotting down some questions. I've 21 got a few; I'll just throw them. 22 One is, what causes a prompt? Two, does

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Commercial Industrial Pumps Working Group 06-19-2014

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2012 20 1 the DOE have a test lab where they would do these 2 tests? And how was that done? Is the manufacturer 3 brought in to witness it? 4 Being new, I don't know this process. 5 Maybe you could clarify the process a little 6 better. 7 MR. ADIN: Sure. So, I mean, I'll speak 8 generally like I have been about other things 9 because, like, you know, we've been saying for 10 pumps we still have to work out some of these 11 details. But generally speaking, for verification 12 testing, it's random. 13 I mean, maybe there are certain things 14 we consider. I mean, if the manufacturer, a 15 particular manufacturer has a history of models 16 that have not been compliant, you know, maybe that 17 might factor in our decision whether to pick 18 something. I mean, we don't really have, you 19 know, defined criteria in the regulations that say 20 those things. 21 But, you know, generally speaking, it's 22 random. We're just trying to sample from across

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Commercial Industrial Pumps Working Group 06-19-2014

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2012 21 1 the population of products out on the market to 2 verify that things are actually compliant. 3 With respect to test laboratories, it 4 depends somewhat on the product. But I mean, we 5 do contract with test laboratories to do our 6 testing, for the most part. We don't have our own 7 in-house test lab where we test things. 8 MR. BROOKMAN: Al Huber. 9 MR. HUBER: Al Huber, Patterson. 10 Since we have the PER VL, the 11 requirement to test those if we want to do a test 12 rather than a calculation, are we required to do 13 two or just required to do one? 14 See, our problem is we have to go 15 purchase a VFD to go with that unit. And it's 16 going to get real expensive, very onerous if we 17 try to test. We will already have tested two of 18 the pumps. 19 MR. HANDZEL: But if it's calculated, we 20 don't need to test. 21 MR. HUBER: No, no, I know. But if we 22 want to test. My question is the test, what will

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Commercial Industrial Pumps Working Group 06-19-2014

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2012 22 1 we do? Can we just test one? It's going to get 2 real expensive if we don't. 3 MR. ADIN: Right. Understood. And I 4 mean, I think that's one of those things that we 5 probably need to think about a little more. But I 6 mean, that -- what you just said, it makes sense 7 to me. I mean, I understand what the implications 8 are with respect to cost and testing burden and 9 all that. 10 So, you know, that's exactly the kind of 11 thing that we'll be thinking about when, you know, 12 we articulate in the regulations exactly what the 13 sampling plan means with respect to pumps. Like, 14 does it really mean two entire systems? Or does 15 it mean two bare pumps that you test? Is that 16 essentially what you're asking? 17 MR. HUBER: Yeah. What I'm saying is we 18 already have to -- we're already required to test, 19 according to what you've said, two bare pumps. 20 MR. ADIN: Right. Right. 21 MR. HUBER: Then we put it in a train 22 test where the -- a variable speed drive.

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Commercial Industrial Pumps Working Group 06-19-2014

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2012 23 1 MR. ADIN: Right. 2 MR. HUBER: We would like to just test - 3 - if we're going to test, we want to test one. 4 Now, we understand we can calculate it and not 5 test at all. 6 MR. ADIN: Right. 7 MR. HUBER: But if we want to test, can 8 we certify it with one test? That was my 9 question. 10 MR. ADIN: So, if the -- I mean, if the 11 test procedure, which we've been talking about, 12 would allow calculation of the rating of that 13 model, that basic model on the basis of 14 calculation for the components other than the bare 15 pump, then I don't know of any reason why you 16 couldn't test -- well, you'd have the two bare 17 pump tests, and then the rest would be based on 18 the calculation. 19 Does that answer your question? 20 MR. HUBER: No. 21 MR. ADIN: No? 22 MR. HUBER: No.

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Commercial Industrial Pumps Working Group 06-19-2014

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2012 24 1 (Cross-talk.) 2 MR. HUBER: Let me finish this. 3 MR. ADIN: You'd still have to test two 4 bare pumps. 5 MR. HUBER: No. We can certify them 6 through calculation. 7 MR. ADIN: Right. 8 MR. HUBER: Right? We all understand 9 that. 10 MR. ADIN: Yeah. 11 MR. HUBER: But if we decide to test, we 12 want to be able to certify it with one test for 13 that strain. 14 MR. ADIN: Okay. 15 MR. HUBER: In other words, I'd take two 16 previously tested bare pumps, full diameter -- 17 MR. ADIN: Yeah. 18 MR. HUBER: I purchase a VFD, I put it 19 in the strain, and I test it. I only want to buy 20 one -- one VFD, is what I'm saying, just one. 21 MR. ADIN: Right. Yeah. I understand 22 that part of it.

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2012 25 1 MR. HUBER: Not two. I don't want to 2 have to test two of those. 3 MR. ADIN: Right. If you're going to do 4 the actual test, like the wire-to-water test, then 5 the way that our regs normally work for other 6 products, you would have to test two. 7 But if it's based on calculation -- I 8 think we're going to have to think about that a 9 little bit more. 10 MR. HUBER: You're going to make testing 11 so onerous nobody's going to do it. 12 MR. ADIN: Right. 13 MR. HUBER: And I think you would be 14 better served and the public would be better 15 served and the NGO's would be better served if 16 people actually tested some product. 17 MR. ADIN: Right. 18 MR. HUBER: And you're going to make it 19 so expensive nobody's going to do it. 20 MR. ADIN: Yeah. We don't have an 21 interest in doing that. I just think we need to 22 think a little more about how we're going to do

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2012 26 1 that. 2 MR. BROOKMAN: First and foremost, there 3 will be plenty of opportunity for comment on this. 4 MR. ADIN: Oh, yeah. 5 MR. HUBER: Yeah. I wanted to bring 6 this forward so you could be thinking about, you 7 know, what our position is. 8 MR. ADIN: Yeah. And that's exactly 9 what we need to know. 10 MR. BROOKMAN: Several individuals are 11 queued to comment. And Steve's been in the queue 12 the longest. 13 Steve Rosenstock. 14 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Steve Rosenstock, 15 Edison Electric Institute. 16 Just to provide some perspective, you 17 know, the test procedure, it's a separate 18 rulemaking, but it is a standard on the 19 manufacturers that -- and so it would be, once 20 it's locked in, you would have to follow it. 21 With other appliances, typically what 22 DOE has done, if there is a certification program

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2012 27 1 or test procedure done by a trade association, DOE 2 uses that as a template. Typically, they've 3 started with that, you know, of like AHRI and 4 other associations, where they have their test 5 procedures for products, or NEMA has their test 6 procedures for motors, for example, DOE has used 7 the trade association test procedure as a template 8 for the DOE test procedure. 9 Sometimes, they adopt it wholesale. 10 It's like, "This looks fine to us. This looks 11 good to us." If it's sampling or if it's tested, 12 et cetera. Other times it might be tweaked. It 13 depends on how it goes. 14 But for the most part -- again, again, 15 this is just from what I've seen, it seems like 16 for the most part, DOE has been really good about 17 adopting a consensus or trade association test 18 procedure that's been proven to work in the 19 marketplace that shows the efficiency of a 20 product. 21 So, again, if some of that is in HI 22 40.6, that is a template that I would guess DOE

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2012 28 1 would start with for their test procedure. 2 MR. BROOKMAN: Lucas, do you want to 3 follow on? 4 MR. ADIN: Well, I mean, I don't know if 5 I want to characterize specifically how closely we 6 intend to align with -- I mean, I think in 7 general, what Steve said is correct. We do, to 8 the extent possible, consider what industry 9 regards as the most appropriate way to test their 10 products because in many cases they know a lot 11 more about them and their variability and all 12 those things that we might -- so those things do 13 matter, and we consider them in the rulemaking 14 process. 15 So we'll be relying on that to a large 16 extent as we consider these products, too. So 17 whatever the manufacturers have to provide about 18 how they do things now will be very important. 19 MR. BROOKMAN: Gary, and then back to 20 Charlie. 21 MR. FERSTROM: This is Gary. 22 I think this whole process is targeted

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2012 29 1 at products you're mass-producing or producing in 2 significant volume. If you only make one of them, 3 there may be some alternative to testing two 4 products. 5 But the presumption is that where we 6 have these extended products, you're probably 7 going to be making a fair number of pumps, motors, 8 and drives that are sold as an integrated unit and 9 extended product. And the burden of testing two of 10 them ought not to be too onerous because you're 11 making a bunch of them. 12 And in your own manufacturing quality 13 control or quality assurance process, you alluded 14 to that. You test some of these things just to 15 make sure that the castings haven't worn and 16 performance deteriorated. 17 MR. BROOKMAN: Mark, you want to follow 18 on? 19 MR. HANDZEL: Yeah. Mark Handzel from 20 Xylem. 21 So, Gary, I mean, certainly when you get 22 up into the bigger ranges of some of our lines,

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2012 30 1 particularly those listed in the building side of 2 the business, you know, we may only make a handful 3 of those bigger models in a year, selling them one 4 at a time or two at a time, that type of thing. 5 And I guess our concern is just that, in 6 testing PER VL, if we're only selling one, we 7 don't want to have to certify -- use a sample size 8 method of two to come up with the test value. 9 That's the bottom line. We don't want to buy a 10 200-horsepower variable speed drive that we're not 11 going to sell. 12 MR. FERSTROM: So, this is Gary. 13 The perspective on this that I wanted to 14 raise is there's got to be some allowance made for 15 products that are made in very small quantities. 16 Conversely, where you're making a significant 17 quantity of these products, it shouldn't be that 18 bad. 19 MR. BROOKMAN: Charlie Cappellino. 20 MR. CAPPELLINO: Just to follow on, 21 Charlie Cappellino. 22 So, Al, what I was trying to understand

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Commercial Industrial Pumps Working Group 06-19-2014

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2012 31 1 is, you could potentially, I think, qualify the 2 product by testing the bare pump and then doing a 3 calculation for the unit to meet the regulation. 4 I guess your question, I think, was really more, 5 if you wanted to put a different label on the 6 product -- it's more of a labeling, question 7 around labeling as opposed to the actual pass/fail 8 of the product. 9 MR. HUBER: It's a marketing 10 consideration, Charlie. 11 MR. CAPPELLINO: Right, right. 12 MR. HUBER: And I think that all of us 13 are going to leave this, or the industry is going 14 to leave this room trying to come up with the most 15 efficient products they can come up with so they 16 can go to the marketplace and tout that. And I 17 think that -- so I think we're going to want to 18 test. 19 But, you know, having to buy these large 20 VFD's or these large VSD's are not inexpensive. 21 And buying two of them is onerous. And what we're 22 going to end up with is just whatever the standard

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2012 32 1 calculation is going to be because nobody is going 2 to want to go to the expense of doing that. 3 MR. BROOKMAN: Charlie, follow on. 4 MR. HUBER: And I don't really think 5 that's good for the public. I really don't think 6 that's what you want to do. But I can tell you 7 the industry can't afford to do the other. 8 MR. CAPPELLINO: So a question for 9 Lucas, I guess. This is Charlie. 10 I presume this is the case. But is the 11 sampling and the rules apply not only to pass/fail 12 around the minimum efficiency requirement, but 13 also for whatever labeling you put on the product? 14 MR. ADIN: Yes. So, sampling is 15 applicable to -- it accomplishes two things. It 16 ensures that the basic model that you're 17 certifying is compliant with the standard. And it 18 ensures that the rating you put on it is 19 representative of the population of units on the 20 market. 21 And I put up an example of one of the 22 sampling plans. I just used refrigerators as an

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2012 33 1 example. It's representative of most of the other 2 products that we regulate. But basically what 3 this is is, it says a few things. Number one, it 4 says at the top, "The requirements of 429.11." 5 That just means a sample of at least two. That's 6 what it says in that section. 7 The rest explains essentially how to get 8 the certified rating for that particular basic 9 model, based on the tests that you did. So, for 10 this particular product for the value of annual 11 energy consumption, it has to be greater than or 12 equal to the mean of the sample, or that B item, 13 which is the upper 95 percent confidence limit of 14 the true mean divided by 1.1. 15 And what that does is essentially 16 ensures that, based on the sample of units you've 17 tested, the rating is, for lack of a better term, 18 it's conservative based upon the likely 19 variability among units out in the marketplace. 20 And it's designed to protect the consumer, 21 essentially, to ensure that the consumer is 22 getting something that is at least as good as what

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2012 34 1 you've determined through your tests. 2 MR. BROOKMAN: Louis is next. 3 MR. STARR: So, maybe this question will 4 help inform the sampling plan. So, if let's say I 5 worked in American Water and I was going to buy a 6 bunch of pumps. And so I looked down there, and I 7 said I can see that the calculated PER value -- 8 I'm going to use variable speed on these pumps. 9 And so I know that a calculated value will get me 10 a PEI of 45 or whatever the number comes out to 11 be. 12 And I'm thinking I would actually like 13 something better that's really been tested so I 14 actually know, maybe. I'll specify 40. So 15 therefore, already, you can't do the calculated 16 one to meet my specification. 17 So now I've ordered five pumps, 18 different pumps, different sizes across their -- 19 now, how is the various pump, pump needs going to 20 -- if I'm ordering those pumps, are you going to 21 test each one of them? Or how are you going to 22 meet my specification?

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2012 35 1 MR. BROOKMAN: Al Huber. 2 MR. HUBER: It depends on what he 3 orders. I mean, if he specifies that he wants a 4 test for each one, then each one will be tested. 5 MALE VOICE: If he pays for it. 6 MR. HUBER: And he pays for it, because 7 testing is not inexpensive. 8 Here's the problem. If he asked me for 9 that and I do it and I label it, am I required to 10 do two and turn it in to these guys to have it 11 listed? 12 MR. STARR: Typically less than a 13 certain quantity. You only have to do one, and 14 there's even less that you won't have to do them. 15 But I'm just thinking about from a customer and 16 they're not -- if you're all bidding on them, I'm 17 not going to pay for three separate tests, right? 18 I mean, I would just say you meet the 19 requirements, so you would have to give a price. 20 And whatever your price, if your price included 21 testing, then it would have to be in your price 22 and you may or may not get it.

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2012 36 1 So is that -- so basically, to meet the 2 values you're going -- or to meet those values, 3 it's going to be a more expensive pump. 4 MR. HUBER: It certainly is going to be 5 more expensive. And some customers choose to do 6 that. And that's not an issue. The industry has 7 no problem with that. 8 The point we were trying to make earlier 9 is that we're going to test two pumps, okay? And 10 we would use those same two pumps and run them 11 with one VFD and really run two tests, but with 12 one VFD so that we don't have to buy two VFD's. 13 That's what we would like to see so that we don't 14 have to go to that expense, because it's going to 15 be expensive. 16 Some of us are looking at the 17 possibility of testing in order to get to the 18 marketplace with a better product. And I think 19 the customers would be served with that. But we 20 will not do it if we've got to buy two. We're 21 just not going to do it. 22 MR. BROOKMAN: Steve.

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2012 37 1 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Steve Rosenstock. 2 Yeah, I want to thank Lucas for putting 3 that up. I'm just kind of -- again, not off the 4 top of my head. But it might be interesting to 5 see what's done for the large motors, because DOE 6 regulates motor size from one to 500 horsepower. 7 Obviously, the number of 500-horsepower motors 8 sold per year is pretty small, and we're up to 9 200. 10 But there might be something in that 11 test procedure that might be analogous in terms of 12 how to handle various small-volume products. 13 Again, I haven't memorized it. But that might be 14 another reference point for people to look at. 15 MR. HUBER: Al Huber, Patterson. 16 The difference between us and the motors 17 or us and the refrigerators is we don't 18 manufacture the VFD's. We have to go out and 19 purchase them. And so, it's totally different 20 ballgame here. So that's the reason I asked that 21 and hopefully, you folks will consider it. We're 22 not trying to get out of doing anything. We're

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2012 38 1 just trying to make it so it's not so onerous that 2 nobody will do it. 3 MR. BROOKMAN: Lucas Adin. 4 MR. ADIN: Your point is understood 5 completely. And all these things are factors that 6 we will consider when we're trying to determine 7 the appropriate way to treat these products. I 8 don't want to give any impression that we've 9 already decided. I'm just explaining the way we 10 do it for other products and the considerations 11 that we use and figuring out the best way. So. 12 MR. BROOKMAN: I think in this 13 discussion this morning, we've uncovered a lot of 14 the salient issues here. 15 Mark Handzel. 16 MR. HANDZEL: Mark Handzel from Xylem. 17 So, I guess, you know, just like 18 everything we did yesterday, should we be creating 19 a recommendation to pass along to represent this? 20 Just because, obviously, we have some strong 21 feelings on it, and you know, we don't want to be 22 -- we want you to be informed so that you make the

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2012 39 1 right decision. 2 MR. ADIN: I mean, I think that's 3 dependent on what you all feel comfortable with. 4 I mean, I -- my personal feeling is that it's 5 probably a little premature to make a specific 6 recommendation. It might be more helpful once 7 we've provided a little bit more information about 8 what we're looking for and how we make these 9 decisions and exactly what we need to know to 10 establish what's appropriate for pumps. 11 MR. HANDZEL: So, just to follow on 12 Lucas -- Mark Handzel again. 13 So, I guess that's kind of -- you know, 14 we've kind of been, at least I've kind of been led 15 along believing that for the next six months, DOE 16 is going dark on this subject. So I guess I'd 17 just ask, is that correct? Or are we going to 18 still have a dialog, even though we're not 19 formally meeting? Is there input before you get 20 to a NOPR stage?, I guess is my question. 21 MR. ADIN: There can be. I mean, it 22 won't be quite as open and organic, in a way, as

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2012 40 1 this group has been. I mean, once we're finished 2 and we submit the term sheet, this is a little bit 3 of an unusual -- not unusual, but I mean, it's 4 different than what we normally do with a 5 rulemaking. The normal rulemaking process is -- I 6 don't necessarily like to characterize it as 7 "going dark." 8 (Laughter.) 9 MR. ADIN: But I mean, it is -- there 10 are periods during which DOE is doing its thing 11 and we open it up and you tell us what you think. 12 So, but there are other ways in which we can 13 collect information from you all, I mean, 14 especially if we have the sense that there are 15 things that we need to know to inform our 16 decisions. 17 I mean, we can do something like a 18 Request for Information, an RFI, you know, if we 19 want to be absolutely sure that whatever proposal 20 we make is best informed by the interested 21 stakeholders, that it can be. Then that's 22 something that we would do.

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2012 41 1 And it's sounding like that might be a 2 useful option for us is to collect some more 3 detailed information, give you a chance to think 4 about it, and give us some more detailed feedback 5 before we put together a specific proposal. 6 MR. BROOKMAN: Lucas, will you be 7 involved in creating the test procedure? 8 MR. ADIN: Yes. 9 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. I was just 10 wondering. 11 MR. ADIN: Test procedure and the 12 certification and compliance, which may or may not 13 be done together, as Ashley pointed out. 14 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. So we know that 15 he's heard what you have to say, at a minimum, 16 right? So that's a start. 17 Okay. Additional comments here? I 18 think we've uncovered a lot of important issues, 19 and I'm glad we've had this conversation. 20 Bob Barbour, you raised the issue of 21 sampling size. Were there other issues in this 22 vein that you're -- you're okay. Okay. Okay.

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2012 42 1 So then, let's turn to a discussion of 2 the term sheet. 3 And Lucas, thank you for pulling up that 4 sampling document. 5 (Pause.) 6 MR. BROOKMAN: One thing that I was 7 unclear about -- and maybe this is directed to 8 you, Lucas -- the Department of Energy hasn't done 9 an awful lot of these negotiated rulemakings. So 10 I think the form of them and the products 11 continues to unfold. 12 I believe you said that a term sheet 13 would specifically have a preamble? 14 MR. ADIN: Well, I mean, when I said 15 preamble, I just mean things other than the 16 recommendations themselves. 17 MR. BROOKMAN: I see. So this 18 background piece at the beginning could be 19 something like a preamble? 20 MR. ADIN: Right. 21 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. As you look at 22 this, and I think all of you have -- I'm hoping

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2012 43 1 that all of you have -- I think what you'll find 2 is that this is just a restatement of all of the 3 work that we have done in the span of these six4 plus months, with quite a bit of attention to 5 detail, and the actual votes that we took to 6 confirm the sense of the working group to obtain 7 consensus on these various recommendations. 8 So, and Al, you raised an issue this 9 morning with me. And I'm intending to go through 10 this recommendation by recommendation, page by 11 page, just to make sure that we're all 12 comfortable. What we said at the very beginning 13 of this negotiation was all agreements are 14 provisional until we make a final agreement and 15 accept all of the previous agreements. So that's 16 what we're intending to do now. 17 MR. HUBER: Al Huber, Patterson. 18 Yes, they're going to make a -- they're 19 going to make some word changes, and I think it 20 will probably be under test procedure and metric. 21 Is that correct, Alison? 22 MS. WILLIAMS: Yes. I have an edit for

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2012 44 1 recommendation 11 we should go through at some 2 point. But I don't know. Do you guys want to go 3 through this in order? 4 MR. HUBER: Yeah, I think we should. 5 MS. WILLIAMS: Okay. Yeah. 6 (Cross-talk.) 7 MR. HUBER: We're going to take care of 8 it there. 9 MR. BROOKMAN: Yeah. We'll start on 10 page 1. And I know we have folks that will be -- 11 have the capacity to do edits as we go along, if 12 that's needed. 13 The first couple of paragraphs just 14 provide background information and describe that 15 we met on the following dates, and that we have 16 obtained consensus to offer the following 17 recommendations. I don't think there's anything 18 so awfully controversial about that. But I'll take 19 comments if there are any on that. 20 Okay. Well, then we're moving on to 21 definition of covered product. Recommendation 22 number one. I'll let you read it.

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2012 45 1 (Pause.) 2 MR. BROOKMAN: We had -- my recollection 3 of this definition was that the group came to 4 understand that it was beneficial for the larger 5 frame of pumps, not just this pumps working group, 6 to have a broad definition. And we spent 7 considerable time coming to these words. And so, 8 I wonder if we would have any additional thoughts 9 on this before we -- we've already obtained a 10 consensus vote you see there. 11 (Pause.) 12 MR. BROOKMAN: I can't tell whether 13 you're jumping ahead or whether you're staying 14 with me, Al. 15 (Inaudible conversation.) 16 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Okay. So, 17 everybody is okay? Because I'm just going to keep 18 moving us along here until people pipe up. Here 19 we go. 20 So we're okay with the pump definition. 21 Now we're going to recommendation number two. 22 "The components of a pump will be defined as

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2012 46 1 below." And we also had a fair amount of 2 discussion to enumerate these terms -- bare pump, 3 mechanical equipment, driver, and controls. And 4 these, of course, are very important as you think 5 about the different configurations. 6 (Pause.) 7 MR. BROOKMAN: So, are we ready to move 8 on, then? 9 Okay. Yes. Okay. We're moving on to 10 recommendation number three, which says, "In this 11 rulemaking, the metric will not cover non-electric 12 drivers. The test procedure will specify that the 13 bare pump rating calculations for the energy 14 conservation standard also apply to pumps with 15 non-electric drivers" -- that second sentence, 16 quite important. The first sentence about the 17 understanding that we achieved here in the working 18 group. 19 (Pause.) 20 MR. BROOKMAN: Comments about this? 21 Steve Rosenstock. 22 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Steve Rosenstock.

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2012 47 1 Yeah, no comments now. But this will 2 come up in the -- when we look at recommendation 3 11 again. 4 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. 5 MR. ROSENSTOCK: But this is fine now. 6 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Thank you. 7 So then, I'm moving on. We've accepted 8 recommendation number three. 9 In-scope and out-of-scope pumps, 10 recommendation number four. You recall we spent 11 at least three meetings with a very detailed 12 discussion on which scope -- which pumps should be 13 in-scope and out- of-scope. And we, after all of 14 that time and effort -- and I thought it was very 15 productive; I didn't think it was a waste of time 16 at all -- we arrived at these five pump types, end 17 suction frame mounted, own bearings, ESFM/OH0 and 18 OH1; end suction close coupled, ESCC/OH7; inline; 19 radial split multi-stage vertical. 20 Since we have this document, I'm not 21 going to read the characterizations in parens. 22 Maybe I should.

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2012 48 1 (Inaudible interjection.) 2 MR. BROOKMAN: You don't think we need 3 to? Okay. Good. 4 (Laughter.) 5 MR. BROOKMAN: I'm trying to be complete 6 here. Vertical turbine submersible being the last 7 of the five. Those are the ones we arrived at. 8 And we, again, obtained a consensus on that with 9 one abstention. So, that's been the basis for all 10 the analysis and the metrics and all of the work 11 we've done have proceeded from those five pump 12 types. 13 So, Steve Rosenstock? 14 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Steve Rosenstock. 15 Yeah, just a very quick one for the 16 people on the ASRAC who might be looking at this 17 for the first time, didn't know if you wanted to 18 add a sentence about any explanation for the 19 parentheses or not. It's not necessary; it just 20 in terms of, for people seeing it, there might be 21 a question, what do these mean? And so that's why 22 if you wanted to add just an explanation note as a

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2012 49 1 background or something for the -- 2 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Okay. 3 Lucas? 4 MR. ADIN: Yeah. We can put in a 5 footnote like we did in a few other places. 6 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Footnote or something - 7

- 8 MR. BROOKMAN: I think it's useful. I 9 think it's useful. 10 MR. ROSENSTOCK: -- just to help the 11 other people looking at it. 12 MR. BROOKMAN: Yeah. Okay. Good. 13 So then, now I'm moving on to 14 recommendation number five. Circulators and 15 dedicated purpose pool pumps will be held for 16 additional ASRAC approved negotiation that was a 17 part of the joint proposal that was voted on and 18 approved by the working group. 19 And then the explanatory bullets -- 20 target date is term sheet for second negotiation 21 by end of this year subject to DOE capacity, begin 22 immediately following this negotiation. That was

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2012 50 1 before we had the conversation at the end of the 2 day yesterday. 3 So, that's why that note is there 4 highlighted in yellow, "to be refined with future 5 discussion, 6/19." So I was wondering what we 6 should say surrounding this point. Because I 7 wrote down the actual proposal. That is, I made 8 short notes myself. But does someone want to 9 characterize? 10 Tom, you want to start -- get us -- 11 MR. HANDZEL: Could I just say something 12 first -- I'm sorry -- before we get in the bigger 13 discussion? 14 MR. BROOKMAN: Sure. 15 MR. HANDZEL: Could we put in the HI 16 product categories for circulators, CP 1, 2, and 17 3, just so it matches the description up above? 18 MR. BROOKMAN: Yeah. That's good. 19 MR. HANDZEL: I think it would be good - 20 - yeah. 21 MR. BROOKMAN: That's good. That's a 22 good addition.

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2012 51 1 MR. HANDZEL: Because we have that 2 definition. So we should -- 3 MALE VOICE: Perfect. 4 MR. BROOKMAN: CP 1, 2, and 3? 5 MR. POTTS: I also had a comment that 6 when we list the definitions, just to explain that 7 they are HI definitions. 8 MR. BROOKMAN: Thank you. 9 MR. POTTS: So that's the source of 10 nomenclature. 11 MS. WILLIAMS: Oh, do you want something 12 different? Oh, okay. 13 MR. BROOKMAN: That's good. Thank you, 14 Alison. 15 And what do dedicated purpose pool pumps 16 have? 17 (Inaudible conversation.) 18 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. They do not. 19 Okay. 20 So, Tom, do you want to characterize 21 what we might say in this segment? 22 (Laughter.)

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2012 52 1 MR. ECKMAN: Well, I'll try. And I'll 2 stand corrected if I overstep, Al. I think the 3 intent is to, probably more informally than an 4 ASRAC negotiation. So it's probably an informal 5 negotiation between our caucus and your caucus on 6 where, what the route to circulators is. 7 And a first step in that would be to 8 present them with a proposal that they could take 9 to HI and the circulator committee and whoever 10 else you need to talk to. 11 And what I think we heard was by October 12 you'd have some response back to us after the 13 October meeting, depending on where that -- we'd 14 either have back-and-forth after that, or we'd go 15 somewhere. So at least initially, we'd get some 16 turnaround by October. 17 So that would mean end of year you'd 18 have -- February meeting you said it was the 19 second backup to that. So. 20 MR. HUBER: Yeah. Well, that's probably 21 what we're going to have to have. We're probably 22 going to have to have two meetings, because you're

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2012 53 1 going to come with something. We're going to come 2 back. We may have to invite you to one of our -- 3 this group in advance of the February meeting and 4 maybe have a short meeting amongst our group and 5 yours to finalize it. 6 That's what we're thinking. So probably 7 -- I mean, if you want it right now, it says the 8 term sheet by the end of the year. So I would say 9 term sheet by the end of March or the end of 10 April, somewhere in there would probably be more 11 accurate. I mean, if you're trying to be 12 accurate. 13 MR. ECKMAN: Yeah. Yeah. 14 MR. HUBER: But I don't know if you can 15 call it a term sheet. I don't know if you've got 16 to invoke a ASRAC committee in order to do that or 17 whatever. I don't know how you do that. We don't 18 know. 19 MR. ADIN: So if you're considering 20 doing what I think you're considering doing up 21 here, it's been done for other products. But 22 essentially, if you all, without DOE, are

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2012 54 1 considering meeting together separately and coming 2 up with your own proposal for the department 3 that's outside of the ASRAC process, you're 4 essentially coming up with your own proposal to 5 present separately -- 6 MR. HANDZEL: Coming to you with a 7 recommendation. 8 MR. ADIN: To come to the department. 9 The department's not involved in that kind of -- 10 MR. HUBER: So, therefore, we would 11 probably need to remove this, because what it -- 12 we've got to change it. Because what it says in 13 the additional ASRAC approved negotiations. 14 MS. WILLIAMS: So, I'm making edits up 15 here. So do you want to see if I'm going on the 16 right track, or -- 17 MR. HUBER: No, I don't want you to edit 18 until they agree. 19 MS. WILLIAMS: It's in track. So it's 20 all changeable. Yeah. No problem. 21 (Cross-talk.) 22 MR. GRAFFAM: Hang on just one second.

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2012 55 1 MS. WILLIAMS: Oh, sorry. 2 MR. BROOKMAN: Can we go ahead? Because 3 you're the one that wanted to -- that I think 4 specified ASRAC as the vehicle for another 5 negotiation. 6 MR. FERSTROM: Go ahead, Al. This is 7 Gary. 8 MR. HUBER: Okay. Yeah. We have a 9 question for Lucas. Since we don't have the 10 assets at our disposal that he does, neither the 11 NGO's nor us, we need to be -- we're probably 12 going to have to rely on the DOE to help us with 13 this. So I don't know. We may have to go back to 14 an ASRAC. But it would probably be after the 15 February meeting, and then we could commence one 16 if you wanted to. 17 MR. HANDZEL: Yeah. I guess the 18 question is we may need those to get to -- 19 MR. HUBER: And it would already be done 20 except for the analysis and the other things. 21 MR. ECKMAN: Yeah. Do we need that 22 support to get to closure? Or can we get to

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2012 56 1 closure -- 2 MR. HUBER: We probably will, don't you 3 think? 4 MALE VOICE: I don't know. 5 MR. BROOKMAN: To get to closure as 6 opposed to getting things underway? Is that the 7 point you're making? 8 (Chorus of "Yeah.") 9 MR. HUBER: Yeah. We're going to do 10 what we do just to get things underway so that you 11 don't take so many meetings. It might only 12 involve one or two meetings or something like 13 that. And then you can dispense -- 14 MR. HANDZEL: Mark Handzel. 15 Just, I mean, Lucas, if we reached an 16 agreement formally and come to you with a 17 recommendation, would the DOE still do an economic 18 analysis on their own? 19 MR. ADIN: Yes. 20 MALE VOICE: Yeah, they'd have to do 21 that. 22 (Simultaneous conversation.)

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2012 57 1 MR. FERSTROM: So, this is Gary. 2 You're all getting to the concern that I 3 have. We're utilizing the concept where we would 4 get together informally to come up with the 5 generalized recommendation. However, DOE still 6 needs to do their analysis, hopefully to support 7 that. And there are probably going to be a lot of 8 issues related to that analysis, as there are with 9 this analysis. 10 So, ideally, if we're going to proceed 11 informally, as perhaps with the fans work, we 12 might have DOE's commitment to allow their 13 analysts to participate. 14 MR. BROOKMAN: Let's let Lucas respond. 15 MR. ADIN: I think we briefly addressed 16 this yesterday. And previous proceedings like 17 that, I believe we have provided support of that 18 nature. It's just a lot more constrained than it 19 would be in this kind of setting. So, I mean, we 20 would just have to, you know, ensure that it's 21 just strictly analytical support based on whatever 22 information you've provided us.

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2012 58 1 MR. FERSTROM: This is Gary. 2 You mean constrained with respect to the 3 extent that we don't address policy, we just 4 address the analytical factors? 5 MR. ADIN: That's my understanding. 6 Right. 7 MR. FERSTROM: Okay. 8 MR. ADIN: So the department wouldn't be 9 providing any views about whatever it is that 10 you're discussing, you know, beyond pure 11 analytical support. Right. 12 MR. FERSTROM: Thank you for that 13 clarification. So, I'd like to see the term sheet 14 stipulate two things. One, that we'll get 15 together informally and come up with a proposal. 16 And that we would have some support from DOE's -- 17 technical support from DOE's consultants to -- 18 what's the terminology I want to use? -- 19 facilitate the technical analysis that would 20 support the decision. 21 MR. BROOKMAN: I'm going to let Louis go 22 first and then I'm following on with Al.

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2012 59 1 MR. STARR: So, you know, one of the 2 things my thought was is that this development of 3 40.6, which we're working -- or, not development, 4 but the add-ons to 40.6. And so it's really the 5 modification of that test procedure to work with 6 circulators. And so really, it's the technical 7 support to do that that's part of it. 8 It's also, I think what Sarah has been 9 working with a little bit with HI on 40.6 are some 10 of their meetings where she attends the meetings, 11 and it sounds like those have been pretty 12 productive in general. So if you think about them 13 on the resources that are being exercised and what 14 the value is, I think HI probably sees a lot of 15 value, it seems like you can pick up some energy 16 savings pretty cheap. 17 I think a lot of it -- the primary 18 support is Sarah continuing on the work she's 19 doing now. And the other part about, by her doing 20 that, it kind of provides an unbiased -- well, to 21 some extent. 22 MR. BROOKMAN: I think Lucas is

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2012 60 1 sympathetic. I imagine DOE is entirely 2 sympathetic. And then they're also concerned 3 about the workload and how it all parses out and 4 all that sort of thing. 5 Al Huber, and then I'm coming back to 6 you, Steve. 7 MR. HUBER: One of the things that our 8 group thinks might work, and I don't know, I think 9 your group would go along with this, that we leave 10 the request for an ASRAC working group in there, 11 but change it from the end of the year to March. 12 And in the meantime, we come up with an informal 13 basis. And then it will just shorten the time 14 that the ASRAC group has to meet. 15 And that way, you get all the support, 16 you get everything. And we all get just like 17 we've done here, and formalize it and get the 18 analysis. And I think maybe that would work 19 better. 20 MR. ECKMAN: Yeah. I don't think we're 21 opposed to doing something like that to get it -- 22 MR. HUBER: We're not opposed to saying

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2012 61 1 we'll proceed informally. 2 MR. ECKMAN: We'll put a bullet in the 3 way Gary's suggesting it. 4 MR. HUBER: Between now and March. 5 MR. ECKMAN: And then commence formal 6 ASRAC- sanctioned things. 7 MR. HUBER: Exactly. Exactly. 8 MR. BROOKMAN: Because this framework 9 has worked rather well, and you anticipate that 10 support will be needed. And ultimately, whether 11 it's ASRAC -- ASRAC would provide a vehicle to 12 accomplish all that you intend to accomplish. 13 Steve Rosenstock. 14 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Steve Rosenstock. 15 Just a thought. Because, you know, 16 ASRAC, the nice thing about ASRAC is that anyone 17 can apply to it. And you can have a wide variety 18 of viewpoints at the table. 19 What's written up there now says 20 manufacturers and advocates, period. And other 21 parties that might be interested seem to be left 22 out of the process. So I'm a little uncomfortable

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2012 62 1 with that. I'd be more comfortable saying, 2 "between interested parties" or "interested 3 stakeholders" because that way you're not being 4 exclusive to other interested parties. 5 MR. BROOKMAN: And let's simply include 6 "and other" -- yeah. "And other parties." 7 (Pause.) 8 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Steve Rosenstock. 9 Yeah, that's fine, too. 10 MR. BROOKMAN: Yeah. Good. Thank you. 11 Okay. 12 So, let's look at this language because 13 we're about to approve what's up here. And it 14 reads, 15 "Recommendation number five: Circulators 16 and a list of circulator types CP 1, 2, and 3. 17 And dedicated purpose pool pumps will be held for 18 additional informal negotiation between 19 manufacturers, efficiency advocates, and other 20 interested parties; advocates to make an initial 21 proposal and manufacturers to respond with a goal 22 of October.

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2012 63 1 "Stakeholders aim to present a joint 2 proposal to DOE by March, April 2015. 3 Stakeholders request DOE commitment for technical 4 support from consultants to facilitate analysis." 5 And then the sub-bullet, "ASRAC approved 6 negotiation to begin in March following a joint 7 proposal." 8 And I think that captures the bulk of 9 it. 10 Bob. 11 MR. BARBOUR: Bob Barbour from Taco. 12 I don't think we have to talk about pool 13 pumps. I think virtually the scope of what this 14 discussion has been on has been circulators, not 15 pool pumps. I think pool pumps is sort of a 16 separate category. None of us sitting at this 17 table are pool pump people. 18 MR. ECKMAN: Yeah. I think we were 19 going to do a second recommendation that we would 20 recommend that DOE undertake a rulemaking on pool 21 pumps separate from the circulators. 22 MR. HUBER: We said that -- so --

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2012 64 1 MR. ECKMAN: So it would be a separate 2 recommendation. I agree. 3 MR. HUBER: Al Huber, Patterson. 4 It's our understanding, you know, we're 5 trying to move these circulators down the line a 6 little quicker. When the ASRAC committee meets 7 again in March or whatever, hopefully there will 8 be some pool pump people. And we're going to make 9 an effort to try to get some pool pump people 10 involved. So, at that point, you'd take up the 11 pool pumps. I mean, I don't know what else you'd 12 do. 13 MR. BROOKMAN: Tom, what would you 14 suggest that the record reflect with respect to 15 pool pumps? 16 MR. ECKMAN: I think we probably need to 17 caucus for about five minutes so we can figure out 18 where we are. 19 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. 20 (Laughter.) 21 MR. ECKMAN: Because I haven't had a 22 chance to talk to them. I don't want to speak for

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2012 65 1 everybody that I haven't talked to. 2 (Laughter.) 3 MR. BROOKMAN: I'd like to keep going 4 through this. 5 MR. ECKMAN: Yeah. 6 MR. BROOKMAN: And then at the break, 7 you can caucus. 8 MR. ECKMAN: That's fine. 9 MR. BROOKMAN: Yeah. 10 MR. ECKMAN: I think we're close there. 11 It's just that it's a timing question. 12 MR. BROOKMAN: I'm going to put a big 13 old star next to this. 14 MR. ECKMAN: And this is probably a 15 question for Lucas and the technical staff, is, 16 you know, if we are envisioning a timeline that 17 gets us to an ASRAC formal negotiation in March, 18 what analysis would we want to have before then to 19 get to closure on our part? 20 I mean, you guys need to think about 21 what you'd like to see and whether that's doable 22 in that time frame by DOE. Because I don't want

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2012 66 1 to create false expectations that we're going to 2 get there and your guys are saying, "Well, wait, 3 till we see this we're not going anywhere." So. 4 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. 5 MR. ECKMAN: You guys can talk about it 6 over break. 7 MR. BROOKMAN: I'm thinking that we have 8 the language, the words with respect to circulator 9 problems largely in place. We're going to have to 10 come up with some additional verbiage for pool 11 pumps. 12 And now we're going to move on. We're 13 going to keep going through this. Now we're on 14 recommendation number six. 15 MS. WALTNER: Doug? 16 MR. BROOKMAN: Yes? 17 MS. WALTNER: Can you hear me? 18 MR. BROOKMAN: Yes, I can. 19 MS. WALTNER: Sorry. I've had my hand 20 raised for awhile. This is Meg. 21 MR. BROOKMAN: Oh, Meg. I'm sorry. 22 (Laughter.)

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Commercial Industrial Pumps Working Group 06-19-2014

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2012 67 1 MR. BROOKMAN: We missed it over here. 2 Please join in here. 3 MS. WALTNER: Yeah. So, I would still 4 like to see a projected NOPR date included as well 5 for circulators even if we are also including the 6 language around the ASRAC negotiation in March. 7 So, yesterday I suggested July. I don't know if 8 that's feasible now that we're targeting March for 9 ASRAC. But look for feedback from others on that. 10 MR. BROOKMAN: You wish to have a 11 projected NOPR date because you think that would 12 suggest -- 13 MS. WALTNER: So, I think that gives us 14 clear target for when we would get a NOPR in final 15 or similar to what we had driving us in these 16 negotiations. 17 MR. BROOKMAN: I see. 18 MS. WALTNER: And I also, I guess I -- I 19 don't oppose including the language on ASRAC 20 committee, but I think it's also a possibility 21 that we'd be able to come to an agreement on our 22 own without me needing to have that second ASRAC

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Commercial Industrial Pumps Working Group 06-19-2014

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2012 68 1 committee. And we would just provide a 2 recommendation to DOE that would feed into a NOPR. 3 MR. BROOKMAN: You're not in the room, 4 Meg. Several of the manufacturers are shaking 5 their head. They think some sort of ASRAC function 6 will be needed if -- to provide the necessary 7 analytic support to generally codify all of this. 8 At least, that's what their body 9 language suggests. 10 MR. ADIN: Well, Doug, just to provide a 11 clarification here. I'm Lucas Adin. I'm waiting 12 for a little clarification myself. 13 But I don't know that you necessarily 14 have to use the ASRAC process just to get the 15 analytical support that you want. I mean, the 16 additional advantage of going through the ASRAC 17 process is that you get direct feedback policy18 wise from the department on what it is that you're 19 considering. 20 You wouldn't get that if you did your 21 own negotiation, but I think we can at least 22 provide basic -- we can crunch the numbers for you

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2012 69 1 and do the economic analysis and that kind of 2 thing. We just wouldn't be able to like make 3 assumptions for you or -- you'd have to give us 4 all the information and we'd run the numbers and 5 see how it looks. 6 I think that's how it would work, but 7 I'm waiting for some confirmation on that. So if 8 you want more than that, if you want real feedback 9 from the department on how we view things, that's 10 when we'd have to go into more of an ASRAC-type 11 negotiation process. 12 MR. BROOKMAN: Al Huber. 13 MR. HUBER: I think the manufacturers 14 would feel more comfortable getting the feedback 15 from DOE. I mean, that way we know that what 16 we're doing has some possibility of being accepted 17 in the end. 18 MR. BROOKMAN: So what do ya'll -- 19 MR. HUBER: I'm not trying to make this 20 complicated. We just want to -- we want to try to 21 make it as smooth and as quick as possible. 22 That's why we've agreed to this, you know, up-

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2012 70 1 front -- 2 MR. BROOKMAN: We'll call this a hybrid 3 approach. 4 MR. HUBER: Well, yeah. 5 (Laughter.) 6 MR. HUBER: I think it will get away -- 7 it will move some of the things out of the way so 8 that the group can move forward quickly. That's 9 all I'm saying. 10 MR. BROOKMAN: Yeah. Okay. 11 MR. HUBER: That's all this informal 12 thing was intended to do. We weren't intended to 13 do away with the ASRAC. 14 MR. BROOKMAN: Right. Okay. So what 15 are you thinking about Meg's suggestion that we 16 establish a target date for a NOPR? 17 (Laughter.) 18 (Inaudible conversation.) 19 MALE VOICE: It's okay with us. 20 MS. WILLIAMS: So, on the NOPR date, 21 just if you want to set one, July 2015 is not 22 technically feasible because then NOPR has to go

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2012 71 1 through a OIRA review, which is a 90-day process. 2 So ASRAC doesn't start till March, you basically 3 can't -- right -- I guess you could if you 4 finished in April, possibly. But. 5 MR. BROOKMAN: So, Meg, I'm intuiting 6 folks would like to see this proceed to the NOPR 7 stage, but I don't know about the timing. 8 MS. WALTNER: Do any other advocates 9 have any thoughts on timing? 10 MR. BROOKMAN: Tom Eckman. 11 MS. WALTNER: Or others? 12 MR. ECKMAN: Well, the sooner the 13 better. But I think everybody in the room would 14 like that. It's just -- 15 MR. BROOKMAN: The hoops. 16 MR. ECKMAN: The hoops and the physical 17 requirements of getting the analysis done and 18 everything written up and passed through all the 19 internal, you know, October 1, September 30, is 20 that -- I mean, I'm looking to the DOE and 21 technical staff to say whether the paperwork can 22 be filed within that time frame.

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2012 72 1 If we had by no later than March, but 2 maybe even before then, if we had an agreement on 3 what the term sheet would look like, could the 4 paperwork be completed by x date? That's the 5 question. 6 MR. BROOKMAN: Yeah, by September7 October. 8 MR. ECKMAN: Or by September, October, 9 instead of -- 10 MR. BROOKMAN: Lucas Adin. 11 MR. ADIN: I mean, you have the 12 circulator date, and now you don't have anything 13 on pool pumps. That's my concern. 14 MR. BROOKMAN: Right. Right. Yeah. 15 That's taking that into consideration, that might 16 make it a little more challenging. 17 MR. ECKMAN: If that was a circulator 18 NOPR only, not a pool pumps NOPR, could you make 19 it sooner rather than later? 20 MR. BROOKMAN: So based on -- 21 MR. ECKMAN: I don't want to drag 22 everything down by --

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2012 73 1 MR. BROOKMAN: Right. 2 MR. ECKMAN: If the pool pumps could be 3 a completely separate rulemaking than the 4 circulators in our minds -- 5 MR. BROOKMAN: Yeah. Right. 6 MR. ECKMAN: It needs to happen, but it 7 doesn't have to be together. 8 MR. ADIN: Right. Yeah. So I mean, 9 based on what we're talking about here, where if 10 you all had done, you know, some negotiation 11 beforehand and we had already had the benefit of 12 some analysis going into that process, so we have 13 a more wholly formed proposal from the start, 14 then, yeah. I mean, I'd personally be a lot more 15 optimistic about that being realistic. 16 MR. ECKMAN: September-October. 17 MR. ADIN: Yeah. Yeah. 18 MR. BROOKMAN: Meg, what about that for 19 your -- if we can get it done by the end of fiscal 20 year? Is that possible? 21 MS. WALTNER: September? 22 MR. BROOKMAN: Look at Alison counting

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2012 74 1 on her fingers over there. 2 (Laughter.) 3 MS. WALTNER: We've got to plan Alison's 4 vacation in there somewhere. 5 (Laughter.) 6 MS. WILLIAMS: Thank you. 7 (Laughter.) 8 MR. BROOKMAN: Meg, you're going to win 9 points here in the room. 10 (Laughter.) 11 MS. WALTNER: I would be okay with end 12 of September or October 1. 13 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. 14 MS. WALTNER: I can live with that. 15 MR. BROOKMAN: So let's do that. Okay. 16 I'm getting a verbal sense of agreement from 17 everyone here. 18 Louis, you want to follow on? I'm eager 19 to keep this moving. 20 MR. STARR: Yeah. Well, you know, 21 originally in their term sheet, we were going to 22 start in this ASRAC right after this one.

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2012 75 1 MR. BROOKMAN: Right. 2 MR. STARR: So I'm not too interested in 3 being a year-and-a-half from now. I mean -- 4 MR. BROOKMAN: But that's -- 5 MR. STARR: -- in other words -- 6 MR. BROOKMAN: That's the NOPR, though. 7 MR. STARR: Well, yeah. No, what I 8 meant was that ideally we would just start this, 9 the ASRAC on this thing right after this one. So 10 when the timing moves out too much more, that's 11 kind of past what Meg's talking about, I'm less 12 and less interested in that. 13 I mean, part of the deal is if we'd look 14 at the savings, actually, in those circulators, 15 more savings there than all these pumps we're 16 talking about right now. 17 MR. BROOKMAN: Yeah. 18 MR. STARR: And I think when they re19 adjust the savings, kind of like they did with the 20 other ones, you'll see that those numbers will 21 maybe increase, too. Or no? 22 MS. WILLIAMS: I don't believe there was

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Commercial Industrial Pumps Working Group 06-19-2014

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2012 76 1 the same -- 2 MR. STARR: Oh, okay. 3 (Laughter.) 4 MS. WILLIAMS: That was a back-of-the5 envelope calculation. 6 (Laughter.) 7 MR. BROOKMAN: I was thinking we could 8 probably rely on our ASRAC spokesperson, Tom 9 Eckman, to indicate to ASRAC the -- 10 MR. ECKMAN: I mean, I think there's -- 11 we'd like to get done with this, and I think the 12 manufacturers would like to get it done as well. 13 It's just that a due process time. You know, we 14 know where we are. You guys haven't talked about 15 it. 16 (Laughter.) 17 MS. WILLIAMS: So September isn't you 18 guys finishing, right? For September, there's 19 three months of OIRA review. There's probably two 20 months of DOE reviews. So there's at least four 21 to five months just of process, as you said, after 22 you complete.

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Commercial Industrial Pumps Working Group 06-19-2014

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2012 77 1 MR. ECKMAN: Yeah. Once we've agreed 2 it's not over yet. 3 MS. WILLIAMS: Yes. Correct. 4 (Laughter.) 5 MR. BROOKMAN: Mark Handzel. 6 MR. ADIN: Right. I mean, that's why we 7 said -- sorry to interrupt. But why we said for 8 this rule, you know, we'll finish with this now. 9 But we won't be able to publish NOPR until the end 10 of the year. So, I mean, you have to consider 11 that kind of time frame in there. 12 MR. BROOKMAN: So you're projecting 13 five-six months, as Alison says? 14 MR. HANDZEL: Mark Handzel. 15 Just in the spirit of managing 16 expectations, you know, all the resources that we 17 have are now going to be working on what we 18 decided in this rulemaking. 19 MR. BROOKMAN: Yeah. Yeah. 20 MR. HANDZEL: So, just understand that 21 those are the same people that we would use on 22 circulators. So just, you know, I mean, it -- we

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Commercial Industrial Pumps Working Group 06-19-2014

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2012 78 1 have to keep it into account. So I don't know 2 where we're going to end up. But I'm just saying 3 don't get too wound up about the energy savings 4 because, you know, we've got a lot of people are 5 going to be very busy. 6 MR. BROOKMAN: Gary Ferstrom. 7 MR. FERSTROM: So this is Gary. 8 So, Mark, you're saying as in 9 circulators, the same people go round and round? 10 (Laughter.) 11 MR. BROOKMAN: Steve Rosenstock. 12 I'm looking for a resolution on this, 13 folks. Let's find it. 14 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Steve Rosenstock. 15 Yeah, and again this is for the 16 manufacturers. Remember, 5B is -- you were talking 17 about a formal recommended -- formal rulemaking on 18 dedicated purpose pool pumps. That could be 19 another series of -- again, that's DOE hearings if 20 they do a framework, preliminary analysis, and 21 then NOPR. So that could be an extra three sets 22 of meetings or a couple.

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Commercial Industrial Pumps Working Group 06-19-2014

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2012 79 1 So again, I just -- I didn't know if you 2 wanted to talk about the timing of that rulemaking 3 in the context of what you're talking about for 4 5A. So. 5 MR. HANDZEL: So, Mark Handzel. 6 Just to say, as we've said all along 7 with pool pumps, the right people aren't at the 8 table. 9 MR. BROOKMAN: Yeah. 10 MR. HANDZEL: So we really are not 11 comfortable talking about pool pumps at all. 12 MR. BROOKMAN: Right. And this caucus 13 wanted to talk about pool pumps. So we're going 14 to hold on pool pumps. We're not going to decide 15 that now. 16 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Steve Rosenstock. 17 Just in case there was any overlap. 18 That's all I was asking. 19 MR. BROOKMAN: Yeah. 20 And do you want to say something, Lucas? 21 MR. ADIN: Well, just to provide a 22 little bit more clarification on what Steve just

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2012 80 1 said. I mean, if DOE were to undertake a 2 rulemaking under its normal process, wherein we 3 start with a framework document and all that, I 4 mean, basically started from scratch with a 5 product that we have not addressed before, I mean, 6 normally that's like a three-year process. 7 So it's not nearly as quick as it was 8 with this one. It would be quite a lot longer. 9 So, just so that's understood. 10 MR. BROOKMAN: So I want you to take a 11 peek at what we, Alison has offered as edits. 12 And, Meg, this goes to your goal that 13 the second bullet in the middle of the page, goal 14 for a NOPR publication by the end of September 15 2015. And it seems as though the manufacturers' 16 caucus is generally okay with that as a target 17 date. 18 So, are we ready to move on, noting that 19 we haven't yet closed on the issue of pool pumps? 20 We'll just hold that and return to that. 21 Gary Ferstrom. Okay. 22 MS. WILLIAMS: So, are you -- since this

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2012 81 1 is heavily edited, you should probably -- are you 2 going to re-vote on circulators? Okay. Oh, I 3 thought he was coming back to pool pumps. 4 MR. BROOKMAN: I'll come back on the 5 whole thing. 6 MS. WILLIAMS: Okay. Okay. 7 MR. BROOKMAN: On all of five. Okay. 8 But now we're moving on to number six, 9 which is, "This rulemaking will explicitly exclude 10 the following types of pumps." So I thought that 11 was a very productive discussion we had on the 12 pump types to be excluded. And you can see them 13 listed there and the separate dates that for which 14 we took votes. 15 Positive displacement pumps and axial 16 mixed flow pumps, and then double suction multi17 stage axially split, multi-stage radial split 18 horizontal, multi-stage radial split vertical 19 immersible, vertical turbine non- submersible. 20 And we concluded -- we obtained a vote 21 on those products first on the 31st of January 22 2014, and then the second grouping on March 26th,

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Commercial Industrial Pumps Working Group 06-19-2014

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2012 82 1 2014. 2 Comments, additional thoughts here? We 3 went through this in considerable detail. I think 4 we're ready to just say "Yea" and move on. Yes? 5 We're moving on. 6 Scope refinements. 7 MS. WALTNER: Doug, sorry. Just one 8 comment not on the content. But so later, we 9 include the other types of not specific pump 10 types, but their applications that are excluded by 11 those specific applications, at least what are the 12 basics, et cetera. I'm wondering if we should move 13 that part of the term sheet to the part that 14 includes the other solutions. 15 MR. BROOKMAN: Meg, I'm sorry. I didn't 16 quite follow you. 17 MS. WILLIAMS: I know. She's 18 recommending -- 19 (Cross-talk.) 20 MS. WILLIAMS: Go ahead. Sorry. 21 MS. WALTNER: Recommendation number 22 eight.

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Commercial Industrial Pumps Working Group 06-19-2014

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2012 83 1 MR. BROOKMAN: Yes. 2 MS. WALTNER: Is also about exclusions. 3 And I'm just wondering if we should include that 4 with five or, you know, six, seven. 5 MR. BROOKMAN: I think the form that's 6 being observed here is, we took separate votes. 7 And -- 8 MS. WILLIAMS: Well, so, the form, I 9 split this. Because these are specific pump 10 types, whereas the other ones are basically, or 11 could potentially be subcategories of the in-scope 12 pump type. So it's sort of arbitrary. We can 13 move some around. 14 It has nothing to do with how the votes 15 were taken, really. 16 MR. BROOKMAN: Mark. 17 MR. HANDZEL: Mark, yeah, Mark Handzel 18 from Xylem. 19 The only thing I would just do is -- I 20 think Meg kind of said she thinks these are 21 applications. Well, these, the second group is all 22 pump products, too. So notice the positive

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Commercial Industrial Pumps Working Group 06-19-2014

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2012 84 1 displacement, we say "pumps." So maybe we should 2 say "double suction pumps." 3 MS. WILLIAMS: Oh, I thought she was 4 talking about recommendation eight being 5 applications. 6 MR. BROOKMAN: I thought she was. 7 MR. HANDZEL: And that one? Okay, that 8 one. 9 MR. BROOKMAN: Meg, you were thinking 10 that they should be included? 11 MS. WALTNER: So, yeah. I was saying 12 that maybe recommendation eight should just follow 13 recommendation six. 14 MR. BROOKMAN: Oh, I got you. 15 MS. WALTNER: Since they're both about 16 exclusions. 17 MR. BROOKMAN: I got you. Okay. 18 MS. WALTNER: It's not -- I mean, it's - 19 - it was just a suggestion. It's not a strong 20 recommendation. 21 MR. BROOKMAN: Since these are other 22 exclusions, so you'd like to see them listed with

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2012 85 1 the principal pump types that are excluded. 2 MS. WILLIAMS: Right. 3 MS. WALTNER: That was my thinking, yes. 4 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. 5 MS. WILLIAMS: So, I had separated them 6 as basically the group that sort of does the 7 limiting it to clean water. So it can go in any 8 order. 9 MS. WALTNER: Okay. That's fine. 10 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. So, shall we move 11 them just so that they're contiguous? 12 Steve Rosenstock. 13 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Steve Rosenstock. 14 Yeah, I would, or maybe just say 6A, 6B, 15 6C. They're kind of flowed. And they kind of flow 16 nicely right now, in my view. Kind of -- kind of 17 umbrella versus kind of -- 18 MR. BROOKMAN: It isn't one or the 19 other. 20 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Yeah. 21 MR. BROOKMAN: So, as a general matter, 22 I'd prefer to make fewer edits than more edits to

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Commercial Industrial Pumps Working Group 06-19-2014

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2012 86 1 this document. 2 MR. HUBER: As far as the pump caucus is 3 concerned, we're satisfied the way this is 4 presented. 5 MR. BROOKMAN: Yeah. 6 MS. WALTNER: Okay. It's fine to leave 7 it. Sorry. 8 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Thank you, Meg. 9 And, Meg, you've got an eye for the construction 10 of words, I've noticed. And we appreciate that 11 here in the room. We do. So keep your eyes open 12 for it. 13 So, now I'm going to the recommendation 14 number seven. Once again, this is for in-scope 15 pump types. "This rulemaking will be limited to 16 pumps with the following characteristics." 17 And you see them listed there, full 18 impeller diameter, one- to 200 horsepower shaft 19 power at BEP, sub-bullet applies to number of 20 stages required for testing the standard, 25 21 gallons per minute and greater at BEP, 459 feet of 22 head maximum at BEP, design temperature range from

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Commercial Industrial Pumps Working Group 06-19-2014

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2012 87 1 minus 10 to 120 degrees Celsius, pumps designed 2 for nominal 3,600, or 1,800 RPM driver speeds, 3 six-inch or smaller bowl diameter VTS/HI VS0. 4 And we obtained, after considerable 5 discussion and refinement, to, for example, the 6 head speed and the driver speeds, considerable 7 discussion on that, we arrived at this. I presume 8 we're still okay with this? 9 Okay. We're moving on. And this -- so 10 recommendation eight, Meg's comment was about the 11 contiguity of recommendation eight. No additional 12 -- she made no comments about the content here. 13 Any additional thoughts on the content here in 14 recommendation number eight? 15 Steve Rosenstock. 16 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Steve Rosenstock. 17 Yeah. That first sentence is just kind 18 of in a bracket there. I don't know if that kind 19 of -- 20 MS. WILLIAMS: So, the words in brackets 21 are things that weren't technically in the written 22 votes that were taken. So it's stuff that I added

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2012 88 1 to clarify things, but was not technically voted 2 on. 3 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Thank you very much. 4 Appreciate that. 5 MR. BROOKMAN: And so I think that we 6 should read that carefully, because I think it's a 7 useful addition that -- Alison's words here. But 8 I want to make sure everybody has a chance to read 9 this, since we didn't consider these actual words 10 previously. 11 "It has been the intent of the working 12 group to limit the scope of this rulemaking to 13 pumps designed for use in pumping clean water" -- 14 "designed for use in pumping clean water" being 15 italicized to draw emphasis to it. "The 16 rulemaking will explicitly exclude the following 17 types of pumps, and these additional words - that 18 might otherwise meet the definition of an in-scope 19 pump type." So I thought that was well said. 20 Yes? Yes? 21 MR. HUBER: As far as the pump caucus is 22 concerned, we think this should be included. It

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Commercial Industrial Pumps Working Group 06-19-2014

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2012 89 1 doesn't need to be bracketed. 2 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. 3 MR. ECKMAN: I think we agree with that. 4 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. So then, I'm 5 scanning the room here. We've got -- Greg Case. 6 MR. CASE: I think maybe for 7 clarification, and I don't know how to add it in, 8 as what we were thinking of as clean water. But 9 we provided a definition of "clean water." It 10 doesn't -- I know we had trouble with the 11 exception of it. But just saying "pumping clean 12 water" may be difficult for some people to 13 understand. 14 So we provided a definition of that. I 15 wonder if there's some way we can put it in to 16 say, "This was in our intent of what clean water 17 is." 18 MR. BROOKMAN: We never -- I do not 19 believe -- my recollection is I don't think we 20 ever zeroed in on a definition of -- we never set 21

-- 22 MR. CASE: I thought one was presented.

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2012 90 1 MS. WILLIAMS: Yes. We referred to the 2 EU definition of "clean water." And we can 3 certainly like footnote that here. Or if you want 4 to make it more -- I mean, there was no dissent, I 5 think. 6 MR. CASE: As long as it's footnoted 7 that our intent was to use the EU definition of 8 "clean water," great. I just -- we don't have any 9 way to define it other than that. So -- 10 MR. BROOKMAN: That's consistent with 11 the discussion we had previously. 12 MR. CASE: Yeah. Exactly. 13 MR. BROOKMAN: But that was my 14 recollection. 15 Lucas, are you comfortable? Yeah? 16 Yeah. 17 Okay. So that's what we're going to do 18 then. Two things. We're going to accept this 19 language that has been bracketed, and we're going 20 to remove the brackets. And then we're going to 21 put a footnote that "clean water" is consistent or 22 congruent, whatever, with the -- as the EU

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Commercial Industrial Pumps Working Group 06-19-2014

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2012 91 1 definition of "clean water." 2 MR. HUBER: Then you might want to 3 reference that, where it's located. 4 MS. WILLIAMS: Yeah. I'll look it up. 5 Okay. 6 (Inaudible interjection.) 7 MR. BROOKMAN: The convention that we 8 said that we would, rather than "lot 11," we'd say 9 "phase one." 10 MS. WILLIAMS: This is different. 11 MR. ADIN: This is actually referring to 12 the European regulation. 13 MR. BROOKMAN: Yes. Okay. 14 MR. ADIN: So we just want to make clear 15 that's what this is. 16 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. So, Mark, follow 17 on, and then coming back to you, Joanna. 18 MR. HANDZEL: Yeah, Mark Handzel. 19 It's not really a follow-on. But I just 20 want to make sure we say we were going to remove 21 the brackets in recommendation seven? Because I 22 think we were supportive of that.

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Commercial Industrial Pumps Working Group 06-19-2014

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2012 92 1 MS. WILLIAMS: Oh, in seven? 2 MR. HANDZEL: Yeah. You had brackets on 3 the very -- the first -- you added some words 4 there. 5 MR. BROOKMAN: Thanks for adding that. 6 I did not cover that. But I think -- 7 MR. HANDZEL: Yes. So we want those 8 brackets removed because that fits perfectly, 9 Alison. 10 MR. BROOKMAN: That's another 11 clarification that Alison added, and that's a good 12 clarification. 13 Any reservations from anyone here 14 present? We're looking at the very beginning of 15 recommendation number seven, the words "for the 16 in-scope pump types," that gets inserted. Those 17 brackets get removed. That's text, that's new text 18 that the working group is about to approve. 19 Okay? Okay. Then, good, that's done. 20 And now we're moving on. And we are -- 21 just one moment, procedurally. 22 (Laughter.)

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2012 93 1 MR. BROOKMAN: We want to confirm that 2 we also are going to remove -- I guess I've 3 already stated it. But I want to get final 4 confirmation that the brackets in recommendation 5 number eight, the words that Alison inserted there 6 are very useful and explanatory, that we're going 7 to remove those brackets, and also we're going to 8 insert the footnote that we described surrounding 9 the EU definition of "clean water." And 10 everybody's comfortable with that as well. 11 Joanna. 12 MS. MAUER: So, on the definition of 13 "clean water," so I know we had a lot of 14 discussion about this. And I mean, I think the 15 potential challenge we're talking about was, you 16 know, can DOE take a pump off a shelf and 17 determine whether it's a clean water pump. And I 18 think we had discussion about, you know, does it 19 make sense to define what clean water is or use 20 some other way of defining what's not included? 21 And my recollection is that DOE was 22 going to do some more thinking about that

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2012 94 1 question. 2 MR. ADIN: Right. I think what we had 3 decided was that DOE would do the work of actually 4 coming up with the regulatory language that would 5 accomplish this intent. So, we need to perhaps do 6 a little more thinking about what makes that 7 airtight from a regulatory standpoint, with the 8 understanding that this is the intent expressed by 9 the working group, and we just needed -- 10 MS. MAUER: So, is the intent to use the 11 definition of "clean water," or is the intent to 12 cover pumps that pump clean water as defined in 13 the EU? 14 MR. ADIN: My understanding is the 15 latter. 16 MS. MAUER: Which I think is -- 17 MS. WILLIAMS: So, and I think these go 18 together, right? Like because of this worry, not 19 only were we going to probably say "pumps designed 20 for clean water" with this definition, but also we 21 have this list of exclusions to try to make that 22 more airtight.

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2012 95 1 MR. BROOKMAN: Do you remember stepping 2 through that progression? 3 MS. MAUER: Yes. 4 MR. BROOKMAN: Yes. And as I recall it 5 being the latter. 6 MS. MAUER: Okay. Thanks for that 7 clarification. 8 MR. BROOKMAN: Yeah. Okay. 9 Steve Rosenstock. 10 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Steve Rosenstock, EEI. 11 And maybe there's a way to clarify, you 12 know, the first -- the bullet wastewater, sump, 13 slurry, solids. Then it says, "But not gray 14 water," so it sounds like it's an exception to the 15 exception, in a way, exception to the exclusion. 16 So, and I know we're talking about the 17 EU definition. So again, just -- just reading 18 that, again, just sometimes you read it, it's 19 like, so is gray water included or excluded? I -- 20 you know, and again, just a matter of maybe 21 there's a better way to write it because it's a 22 list of exclusions. Then it says, "but not gray

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Commercial Industrial Pumps Working Group 06-19-2014

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2012 96 1 water." So, is it excluded or not? 2 MR. BROOKMAN: I see. 3 MR. HUBER: The definition of "clean 4 water" in the EU allows gray water. 5 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Okay. So maybe there 6 might be -- maybe if after "water" it says "gray 7 water," maybe put paren, "allowed under the EU" -- 8 no. Leave it. Leave it back -- 9 MS. WILLIAMS: I've made a footnote 10 instead so it's not as confusing, since the list 11 is exclusions. I'll just footnote it to be less 12 confusing, maybe? 13 MR. BROOKMAN: Yeah. Okay. Yeah. So 14 we don't have a positive construct. 15 MR. ROSENSTOCK: That's fine. 16 MR. BROOKMAN: Bob Barbour. 17 MR. BARBOUR: Bob Barbour with Taco. 18 I hate to do this. But I want to go 19 back to seven. 20 (Laughter.) 21 MR. BARBOUR: I just want to clarify one 22 thing. I know many of the pump caucus group may

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Commercial Industrial Pumps Working Group 06-19-2014

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2012 97 1 disagree with me on this. But when the very first 2 statement under there says, "full impeller 3 diameter," I know that's intended for the basic 4 model certification. But someone reading this for 5 the first time sees "full impeller diameter," and 6 they trim their pump, they're going to think they 7 don't have to comply. 8 I'm not talking about those of us in 9 this room who understand. I'm talking about 10 someone who may be sitting out in California or 11 someplace else. 12 (Laughter.) 13 MR. BROOKMAN: You mean the Left Coast 14 there or something. 15 (Cross-talk.) 16 MR. BARBOUR: They think they have 17 enough there or something. 18 MR. HUBER: Alison is going to try to 19 clarify that, I think, at 11; is that correct? 20 MS. WILLIAMS: Yes. We could do 21 something here also if you want to. 22 (Inaudible conversation.)

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2012 98 1 MR. BARBOUR: My concern is that someone 2 is spinning their wheels -- 3 MR. BROOKMAN: I got you. So, do you 4 have a proposed fix? 5 MR. BARBOUR: My proposed fix would be 6 to say "full impeller diameter," and then have the 7 brackets "basic model certification," and 8 "trimmed" -- whatever we want to call the standard 9 categories under the basic model, as also on 10 scope. 11 (Pause.) 12 MS. MAUER: This is Joanna. 13 Maybe a clarification question. I mean, 14 a trimmed impeller is not actually part of a basic 15 model, right? 16 MALE VOICE: In some categories. 17 MR. ADIN: Well, it's a modification of 18 what we're considering a basic model, right? I 19 mean, you're -- we're talking about the rating 20 being based on a given pump at full impeller. And 21 if you trim the impeller -- 22 MALE VOICE: It will qualify.

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2012 99 1 MR. ADIN: It would still be covered. 2 Its rating would be based on the test at full 3 impeller. So really, in a way, the impeller trim 4 issue is more of a test configuration kind of 5 issue than it is coverage. It's not which pumps 6 are covered. It's just, how does it have to be 7 tested to get the rating? 8 MS. WILLIAMS: So, I took it out of the 9 list and added it as a separate sentence. So it 10 says, "In addition, pump rating will be based on a 11 test at full impeller diameter." Does that help 12 solve the problem? Because I understand what you 13 mean, like the rest of the list is characteristics 14 of covered models. 15 (Inaudible interjection.) 16 MS. WILLIAMS: Yes. So it says, instead 17 of being part of the list, I added a separate 18 sentence that says, "In addition, the pump rating 19 will be based on a test at full impeller 20 diameter." 21 MR. BROOKMAN: Rob Boteler. 22 MR. BOTELER: From a motor perspective,

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Commercial Industrial Pumps Working Group 06-19-2014

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2012 100 1 I would absolutely agree with Bob, that if the 2 definition says "full impeller," if I build a pump 3 with a trimmed impeller, I'm not included in the 4 product. Lucas will disagree. 5 (Laughter.) 6 MR. ADIN: I don't think that's the 7 intent. 8 MS. WILLIAMS: Does this change -- no, 9 it was not the intent. 10 MR. BOTELER: I know it's not the 11 intent, but I'm saying that's the definition that 12 ends up in the rule. 13 MR. ADIN: Right. That's not what we 14 want it to say. 15 MS. WILLIAMS: Right. 16 MR. ADIN: I think we just want to be 17 clear that -- 18 MR. BOTELER: Right. 19 MS. WILLIAMS: No. Does this change 20 address that? 21 (Inaudible conversation.) 22 MR. BROOKMAN: The question on the table

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2012 101 1 is -- can you read it? Alison's edition is, she 2 has deleted 3 "full impeller diameter" as the first 4 bullet and added the following: "In addition, the 5 pump rating for a given model will be based on 6 testing at full impeller diameter." 7 Go ahead, Bob. 8 MR. BARBOUR: Bob Barbour, from Taco. 9 Should we add a statement or just a 10 comment on the end of that that says, "Trimmed 11 impellers approved with the full impeller are also 12 covered under scope"? That's all I'm trying to get 13 at. 14 MR. ADIN: I think what it is is pumps 15 that otherwise meet all these characteristics 16 aren't excluded from coverage purely on the basis 17 of having their impeller trimmed. Right? I mean, 18 that's -- 19 MR. BROOKMAN: He wants to be really -- 20 he wants -- 21 (Inaudible conversation.) 22 MR. ADIN: I think there's value in

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2012 102 1 doing that. 2 MR. BROOKMAN: Belts and suspenders he 3 wants. 4 MS. WIDDER: Another suggestion could 5 be, the EU -- the EU defines "full impeller" as 6 "the largest impeller diameter for which the pump 7 is sold." So if you don't produce a full run 8 impeller, it's just whatever the largest diameter 9 is. 10 So you can't get a way around the 11 regulation by only selling trimmed impellers, 12 because the full impeller is just the largest 13 available in the model literature. 14 MR. BROOKMAN: I don't know what is more 15 clear. I don't. 16 MS. WIDDER: That's just consistent with 17 the 18 EU. 19 MR. ADIN: Is it unclear what she means 20 by that? Or -- yeah, I think she's just saying 21 that we essentially have to be clear on what we 22 mean by "full impeller diameter" so that you can't

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2012 103 1 say, "Well, I only sell a trimmed impeller, so" -- 2 MS. WILLIAMS: And we will certainly do 3 that in the regulations. So. 4 MR. ADIN: Right. 5 MS. WIDDER: So this is what happens in 6 the EU. Just -- okay. 7 MR. POTTS: I have a comment, also. 8 MR. BROOKMAN: Yeah, Doug, just one 9 second. 10 I just -- so I'd like, before we hear 11 from Doug, Alison, do you think what you've 12 written there does it? 13 MS. WILLIAMS: Yeah. So I mean, so the 14 sentence still says, "In addition, the pump rating 15 for a given model will be based on testing at full 16 impeller diameter." And I added a footnote that, 17 as Lucas said, pumps that otherwise meet all these 18 characteristics will not be excluded on the basis 19 of having a trimmed impeller. 20 MR. BROOKMAN: I'm going to let him 21 follow on. 22 Go ahead.

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2012 104 1 MR. BARBOUR: Bob Barbour from Taco. 2 Instead of saying "rating," should we 3 say "certification"? 4 (Pause.) 5 MS. WILLIAMS: I mean, that's 6 essentially -- 7 MR. ADIN: They're kind of -- well, I 8 don't want to say they're the same thing. But I 9 mean, the certification relies on the rating, and 10 the rating is done through this, these defined 11 test procedure and rating procedures. So. 12 MR. BROOKMAN: The rating -- the rating 13 is the more -- it's immediate, right? 14 Doug Potts. 15 MR. BARBOUR: Almost, quick, finished -- 16 I'm sorry. 17 MR. BROOKMAN: Yeah. Yeah. 18 MR. BARBOUR: Bob Barbour. 19 I was going to say the pump rating -- I 20 mean, the pump certification for a given model 21 shall be based on testing at full diameter for any 22 trimmed impeller, inclusive of any trimmed

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Commercial Industrial Pumps Working Group 06-19-2014

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2012 105 1 impellers. 2 MR. ADIN: You could just say the 3 certified rating. 4 MR. BARBOUR: Yeah. The pump certified 5 -- the pump certification for a given model will 6 be based on testing at full impeller diameter and 7 covering any trimmed impeller models, or impeller 8 -- impeller options, for lack of a better term. 9 (Inaudible conversation.) 10 MR. POTTS: Could I suggest -- this is 11 Doug Potts. 12 Could I suggest a slight change to that? 13 Instead of "other trim," saying, "full impeller 14 diameter and/or the largest diameter sold with 15 that pump." Right. 16 MR. BARBOUR: That doesn't cover smaller 17 trims, though. 18 MR. ADIN: No, no, I think -- 19 Go ahead, Doug. I'm sorry. I didn't 20 mean to interrupt. 21 MR. POTTS: Well, so, actually, the 22 first reason -- the first thing I wanted to say

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2012 106 1 was, keeping in mind with the discussion we had 2 yesterday that pumps with -- you know, pumps with 3 smaller trims, you know, we lose efficiency. 4 So it's possible that some pumps with 5 smaller trims, even though the model is certified 6 and meets the standard, a smaller-trim pump may 7 not itself meet the standard, because you've 8 trimmed it so much that it has a lower efficiency. 9 So I think it could really be confusing 10 and misleading if we say that it's going to meet 11 at all impeller diameters, because really we're 12 just meeting it at the full impeller diameter. 13 MR. HUBER: It's our understanding that 14 the certification applies only to the full 15 diameter, with the full understanding that 16 everybody sells trimmed diameters, but that the 17 rating on the pump itself, or that model pump 18 itself will be that rating attained at full 19 diameter. And that's my -- our understanding. 20 So, and I understand that you may get 21 less. 22 MS. WILLIAMS: The ratings are based on

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2012 107 1 energy use, though, not efficiency. 2 MR. HUBER: That's true. 3 MS. WILLIAMS: So as we discussed 4 yesterday, the trimmed impellers will have lower 5 energy use. 6 MR. HUBER: Lower energy use. 7 MS. WILLIAMS: So. 8 MR. BROOKMAN: I guess I feel like your 9 clarification is good as it stands now. That's my 10 feeling. 11 MR. ADIN: Although, do we need to 12 clarify additionally that full impeller diameter, 13 it means the largest diameter impeller offered for 14 that model? 15 (Inaudible interjection.) 16 MR. ADIN: Right. 17 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. So, that's -- so I 18 think we've arrived at it now, have we not? 19 Here's what we're suggesting. And if you approve 20 this, we're going to take a break. 21 "In addition, the pump's certified 22 rating for a given model will be based on testing

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Commercial Industrial Pumps Working Group 06-19-2014

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2012 108 1 at full impeller diameter." And then there's 2 footnote 3, which reads, "Pumps that otherwise 3 meet all these characteristics will not be 4 excluded on the basis of having a trimmed 5 impeller. The certification rating for full 6 diameter will also apply to other trims." And 7 further explanation, "Full impeller means the 8 largest impeller diameter offered for sale for 9 that model." 10 That's complete, right? Okay. Are we 11 okay with that? 12 Steve Rosenstock. 13 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Steve Rosenstock, EEI. 14 I'm fine. It kind of sounds like it 15 should go under recommendation 10, which is about 16 the test procedure. 17 (Laughter.) 18 MR. BROOKMAN: Well, let's just leave it 19 here for now, since we've wordsmithed it here. 20 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Okay. 21 MS. WILLIAMS: Everything will go in 22 correct places in the NOPR, et cetera. So I think

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Commercial Industrial Pumps Working Group 06-19-2014

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2012 109 1 it's the order of the term sheet is not super 2 important. 3 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. We are in good 4 shape. We've made big progress. We're better than 5 halfway through -- well, almost halfway through, I 6 think. 7 Let's take a break. It's ten o'clock. 8 MR. ADIN: And just a reminder. If you 9 haven't given Brenda your business card, please do 10 so during the break. She's out at the desk out 11 there. Thanks. 12 MR. BROOKMAN: And good progress. 13 Fifteen minutes. 14 (Whereupon, at 9:58 a.m., a recess 15 was taken, to resume at 10:18 16 a.m.) 17 MR. BROOKMAN: We had stopped work on 18 recommendation number five. Alison had done 19 considerable edits, which I thought were in good 20 shape. However, we were going to wait for one 21 caucus to consult on the issue of pool pumps. 22 And I had a brief conversation with

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2012 110 1 Gary. He said you all talked about it. 2 Tom Eckman. Yeah, number five, correct. 3 I may have misstated that, number five. Yes, Tom. 4 MR. ECKMAN: I think, as it stands, what 5 we couldn't say for sure was whether we had a time 6 frame in mind. But we think the DOE should 7 undertake a rulemaking, separate rulemaking for 8 pool pumps, right? 9 MS. MAUER: Yeah, and this is Joanna. 10 I think what we wanted to propose 11 specifically was what Meg proposed yesterday, the 12 DOE should initiate a rulemaking by the end of 13 2014 or another recommendation. 14 MR. BROOKMAN: Calendar or fiscal? 15 MS. MAUER: Calendar. 16 MR. ECKMAN: Calendar. 17 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. 18 MR. ECKMAN: And if something happens 19 that we can negotiate, great. But just get the 20 rulemaking down the road. Because you guys don't 21 represent them, and we haven't talked to them. 22 So, since they're not in the room, we don't want

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Commercial Industrial Pumps Working Group 06-19-2014

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2012 111 1 to volunteer them for much. 2 (Laughter.) 3 MR. BROOKMAN: Yeah. The manufacturers 4 caucus. 5 Steve, yes? 6 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Well, again, Steve 7 Rosenstock. 8 So you're okay with a formal rulemaking 9 rather than another negotiation? 10 MR. ECKMAN: If they want to talk, we'll 11 talk. 12 MR. ROSENSTOCK: I know they're not in 13 the room. I'm just saying that what it says is 14 that this is a separate rulemaking; it's not a 15 negotiation. So that's what it's saying right 16 now. 17 MR. ECKMAN: At this stage, we're saying 18 rulemaking because we haven't talked to them about 19 whether they want to talk or not. 20 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Okay. Yeah. Okay. I 21 just wanted to say it's on paper. Thank you. 22 MR. ECKMAN: I don't want to volunteer

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Commercial Industrial Pumps Working Group 06-19-2014

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2012 112 1 them for a discussion they don't know anything 2 about. 3 (Laughter.) 4 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Okay. Great. So 5 then, but then let's -- I want to close on number 6 five. So everybody, if you would, focus on the 7 new language that Alison has inserted up here, 8 because I'm hoping to gain approval on this right 9 now. 5A reads, "Circulators" -- and she's 10 inserted, "CP 1, 2, and 3" -- "will be held for 11 additional informal negotiation between 12 manufacturers, efficiency advocates, and other 13 interested parties; advocates to make an initial 14 proposal and manufacturers to respond with a goal 15 of October" -- to respond -- 16 (Inaudible interjection.) 17 MR. BROOKMAN: Yeah. I don't think we 18 need to wordsmith every -- the intent is there. 19 "It's stakeholders' aim to present a draft 20 proposal to DOE by March-April 2015. Stakeholders 21 request DOE commitment for technical support from 22 consultants to facilitate analysis." And then

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2012 113 1 there's a sub-bullet, or as a bullet, "ASRAC 2 approved negotiation to begin by March following 3 the joint proposal. Goal for NOPR publication by 4 end of September 2015." 5 And then the additional recommendation 6 5B, "DOE should initiate a separate rulemaking for 7 dedicated purpose pool pumps by the end of 8 calendar 2014." Okay? 9 Al Huber. 10 MR. HUBER: Just for the sake of some of 11 my colleagues here, when you say "ASRAC approved," 12 that means a working group, correct? 13 (Cross-talk.) 14 MR. HUBER: Is that what that -- 15 MS. WILLIAMS: Yeah. Do you want to 16 just say that? 17 MR. HUBER: Thank you. 18 MR. BROOKMAN: I think that's what that 19 means. 20 MR. HUBER: Thank you. 21 MR. BROOKMAN: I don't think ASRAC has 22 done anything other than working groups so far.

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Commercial Industrial Pumps Working Group 06-19-2014

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2012 114 1 Joanna? 2 MS. MAUER: We were just having a little 3 discussion at the break that it may be really 4 helpful to have DOE support both in the kind of 5 standards analysis, but also on test procedure 6 development. So we were wondering if we could 7 just add -- yes, exactly what Alison said. 8 MR. ECKMAN: Because you guys are 9 working on a test procedure as well. 10 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. And DOE has 11 provided some support for that already, and we 12 would hope that they would continue to do so. 13 Okay. So that's all consistent, is the reason I'm 14 stating that. So we're okay with number five as 15 edited. 16 I wish to obtain -- yes? Okay. Okay. 17 We're missing Charlie Cappellino at the moment, 18 but otherwise 19

-- 20 MR. HUBER: He's in a meeting. He'll be 21 back. 22 MR. BROOKMAN: Yeah. Okay. I'll check

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Commercial Industrial Pumps Working Group 06-19-2014

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2012 115 1 with him to make sure. I spoke with him before he 2 left the room. I said, "You're familiar with this 3 term sheet. You've read through it?" He said, 4 "Yes. No major problems with it." He confirmed 5 that. But I'll confirm this segment with Charlie. 6 (Inaudible conversation and 7 laughter.) 8 MS. WILLIAMS: So, Doug, should I have 9 vote results here? Or how do you want to handle 10 this? 11 MR. BROOKMAN: Go ahead, Lucas. I mean, 12 we're going to -- 13 MR. ADIN: My read on this is that we're 14 changing it enough that we probably should vote on 15 it again. 16 MR. BROOKMAN: Yeah, I think that's not 17 a bad idea. 18 MR. ADIN: Right. 19 MR. BROOKMAN: But we're going to vote 20 on the entire thing. But maybe we should vote on 21 this as well. Okay? 22 All of those in favor of accepting these

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Commercial Industrial Pumps Working Group 06-19-2014

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2012 116 1 edits that I have just detailed, please show your 2 support by raising your hand. 3 (Show of hands.) 4 MR. BROOKMAN: All members present have 5 voted yes. 6 Meg, are you still with us? 7 (Pause.) 8 MR. BROOKMAN: Maybe she's not. Okay. 9 MALE VOICE: And one is absent. 10 MR. BROOKMAN: And one absent. 11 MS. WILLIAMS: So, how many are present? 12 MR. BROOKMAN: Count him present, but 13 I'll give him a chance to vote when he comes back. 14 So that's one, two, three, four, five, six, seven, 15 eight, nine, ten, eleven, twelve, thirteen yeses. 16 And one, I guess two absences at the moment. 17 MS. WILLIAMS: Three, three. 18 MR. BROOKMAN: Three absences, yeah. 19 Three absences. 20 Okay. Thank you. That's useful. 21 Now we're moving on. Where we left off 22 was, I don't believe we have --

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2012 117 1 MR. CASE: Doug, that was for both 5A 2 and 5B, right? Okay. 3 MR. BROOKMAN: Yeah. And I do not 4 believe we had confirmed -- did we -- we didn't 5 finish up seven, did we? I don't think we did. 6 MS. WILLIAMS: Hopefully. 7 (Pause.) 8 MR. BROOKMAN: Yes. This to me is a 9 minor clarification, an important clarification. 10 But consistent with the original vote, confirming 11 full impeller diameter that the additional 12 language and the addition of the bullet that 13 replaces the original impeller -- thank you. 14 Yeah. Okay. 15 I just received a note that says, "Meg 16 votes yes." So we now have 14 yeses and two 17 absences. 18 MS. WILLIAMS: Sorry. 19 MR. BROOKMAN: Thank you, Meg. 20 (Pause.) 21 MR. BROOKMAN: I'm going to suggest we 22 not revote on this, we just get the sense of the

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2012 118 1 group that we're okay with this. We had this 2 discussion just prior to the break. "Full 3 impeller diameter" is deleted, and then this last 4 bullet further clarifies what's meant by full 5 impeller diameter, as well as the footnote. Okay? 6 So anybody have any reservations about 7 that? Because we're about to move on. 8 Okay. We're moving on then to number 9 eight. And as we had already said in number eight, 10 we're going to remove those brackets. We're going 11 to have as a footnote the EU "clean water" 12 definition. And any other -- Steve Rosenstock. 13 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Steve Rosenstock, EEI. 14 Alison, can you just put that down so 15 all of the whole thing is on one page just so we 16 can read the whole? Kind of make it easier 17 because we made changes. Just put it on the next 18 page and then put it back up just so we could -- 19 the whole thing with the edits. 20 Thank you. Yeah. Perfect. 21 MS. WILLIAMS: You still can't see it. 22 MR. BROOKMAN: So, any additional

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Commercial Industrial Pumps Working Group 06-19-2014

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2012 119 1 comments on recommendation number eight? For 2 which we obtained unanimity after several 3 meetings. 4 (Pause.) 5 MR. BROOKMAN: Are we okay with the 6 temperature in the room? Yeah. Is that why he 7 was here? We don't know. Okay. 8 (Laughter.) 9 MR. BROOKMAN: I'm comfortable. 10 No one is suggesting that there's 11 anything amiss with recommendation number eight? 12 I'm just confirming that now. This is what we did 13 before. We had a lot of discussion on all this. 14 I think this is very well vetted. 15 Now we're moving on to energy 16 conservation standards, recommendation number 17 nine, which reads, "For ESCC, ESFM, IL, and VTS 18 pumps in both 1,800 and 3,600 RPM speeds, the 19 energy conservation standards will be set at PER 20 25 (with C values iterated to cut off exactly 25 21 percent of the pumps 22 database])" -- I think that's good to have in

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Commercial Industrial Pumps Working Group 06-19-2014

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2012 120 1 there. That's merely further description -- "with 2 a compliance date four years from the publication 3 of the final rule." 4 That's exactly what we had said 5 previously -- "For RSV pumps, energy conservation 6 standards will be set to harmonize with the 7 European Union Lot 11 MEI 40 level" and new 8 wording in the brackets there, " 9 that no models known to pass the EU standard would 10 fail the US standard]." 11 MR. ECKMAN: Doug, I just wondered if 12 the compliance date, I mean, it applies to all of 13 them. So maybe the compliance date phrase ought 14 to be at the end, because it applies to all the 15 product classes, not just the first. 16 MR. BROOKMAN: Good point. 17 MR. ECKMAN: Is that right? Now? Good 18 there? 19 MR. BROOKMAN: And Al, please. 20 Thank you -- 21 (Cross-talk.) 22 MR. HUBER: Al Huber, Patterson.

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2012 121 1 I just want to clarify that the end, 2 when you put in parenthesis, "in the DOE 3 analytical team's database," I'm assuming that it 4 is the merged database. 5 MS. WILLIAMS: Um-hm. 6 MR. HUBER: Is that correct? 7 MS. WILLIAMS: Yes. 8 MR. HUBER: Or expanded database or 9 whatever you want to call it? 10 MS. WILLIAMS: Yep. 11 MR. HUBER: Okay. Thank you. 12 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. It's good 13 clarification. 14 Greg Towsley. 15 MR. TOWSLEY: Greg Towsley, Grundfos. 16 Probably better to use the EU regulation 17 547/2012 rather than "Lot 11." 18 MR. BROOKMAN: That number again is? 19 MR. TOWSLEY: 547/2012. 20 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. 21 MS. WILLIAMS: Dan. Go ahead. 22 MR. BROOKMAN: Yes, Dan.

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Commercial Industrial Pumps Working Group 06-19-2014

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2012 122 1 MR. WEINTRAUB: On the wording of 2 "exactly 25 percent," can we get some clarity on 3 that? Because it will be impossible to get 4 exactly 25 percent. 5 (Laughter.) 6 MS. WILLIAMS: We'll do as best as we 7 can. 8 (Laughter.) 9 MR. WEINTRAUB: Oh, no. Well, 10 realistically, we're going to have one increment 11 above or one increment below, you know, either one 12 pump above 25 percent will be failing or will be a 13 little bit below 25 percent. 14 MALE VOICE: 10 percent. 15 MR. WEINTRAUB: Yeah. 16 MR. HUBER: Give us 25.2, 25.3, what do 17 you want? 18 MS. WILLIAMS: We'll do our best -- 19 (Cross-talk.) 20 MR. WEINTRAUB: It depends on how many 21 models we have in our database. If we have 80 22 models in our database for VTS, than you can't get

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2012 123 1 to 25 percent, you're going to have 25.5 or 2 something like that. 3 MS. WIDDER: Because you can't have a 4 partial model. 5 MR. WEINTRAUB: Yeah. So you can't have 6 a partial model. So. 7 MS. WILLIAMS: By as best as we can do, 8 I mean mathematically. Not like -- 9 MR. WEINTRAUB: Yeah. We just can't be 10 bound to "exactly 25 percent." 11 MR. ADIN: And let's be clear. This 12 will all be in the Notice of Proposed Rulemaking, 13 will be absolutely clear about what it is that we 14 got, how we got it. To the extent you disagree, 15 you'll have an opportunity to give us feedback and 16 tell us what we can do to make it better if you 17 think we could. 18 MR. HUBER: But we won't say 26, 27. 19 MR. WEINTRAUB: No, no, no. It's just 20 going to be as close to the 25 as we can get. 21 MR. HUBER: All right. 22 MR. BROOKMAN: Right. There is one

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2012 124 1 individual who is joining us online. Jennifer 2 McGrath has a comment. 3 Jennifer, I apologize. I got swept up 4 in the content here. Jennifer, I'll mute your 5 phone, and if you speak we ought to be able to 6 hear you. 7 MS. McGRATH: Can you hear me? 8 MR. BROOKMAN: Yes. Good. You sound 9 good. Keep going. 10 MS. McGRATH: Okay. My comment was 11 actually going back to number seven. I apologize. 12 MR. BROOKMAN: No, no. I took us out of 13 sequence. You're good. 14 MS. McGRATH: Going back to clarifying 15 the scope, my understanding was the definition of 16 that "scope" was based on the full impeller 17 diameter for a given pump. Well, for instance, if 18 the pump and its minimum trim uses 200 horsepower, 19 that by defining this scope by full impeller, that 20 pump may not be in scope. 21 The way it's written now, that pump 22 would be in scope, but you would have to test it

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2012 125 1 at full impeller diameter, which (inaudible) 2 defines in scope. If that makes sense. 3 MR. BROOKMAN: Yeah. Jennifer, can you 4 see the revised version of the term sheet in -- 5 MS. WILLIAMS: Well, I think she's 6 asking about possibly the -- like the one- to 200 7 horsepower is really shaft horsepower at the BEP 8 at full impeller diameter. 9 MR. BROOKMAN: Oh. 10 MS. WILLIAMS: Is that the 11 clarification? 12 MR. BROOKMAN: Jennifer, does that do 13 it? 14 MS. McGRATH: Footnote 3 implies that if 15 I have a pump that has 200 horsepower rating, for 16 instance, at something other than full impeller 17 diameter, it's still in the scope. 18 MS. WILLIAMS: Okay. So I've -- 19 MS. McGRATH: I think that's -- 20 MR. BROOKMAN: Alison? 21 MS. McGRATH: I think that full impeller 22 diameter was important up there to define that the

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2012 126 1 scope, the horsepower, the flow, and the head were 2 all meant to be calculated as the full impeller 3 diameter for a given pump. 4 MS. WILLIAMS: Okay. So I've added that 5 clarification. Does anybody have an issue with 6 that? Okay. 7 MR. BROOKMAN: Jennifer, thank you. 8 That's useful. Thanks. 9 Charlie, while we were -- 10 MS. McGRATH: I think footnote 3 needs 11 to be reworded then, because it conflicts with 12 that a little bit. 13 MS. WIDDER: I think she's just 14 concerned that like a large pump, for example, 15 like 250 horsepower could be trimmed to be 200 16 horse. And then that would be the largest trim. 17 But that's not what's intended, because full 18 impeller diameter is the largest impeller diameter 19 for which that pump is sold. 20 And so, just an impeller trim won't 21 bring that pump into scope. 22 MS. WILLIAMS: So I'm going to change it

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2012 127 1 from "pump" to "pump models." So you wouldn't 2 have a pump model that otherwise meets the above 3 characteristics that now say at full impeller 4 diameter if it's trimmed. So I think we're all -- 5 I think it's accomplishing the intent. 6 MR. BROOKMAN: Jennifer, thank you. 7 Please re-mute your phone. There's background 8 noise. Thank you. 9 Okay. So, everybody is comfortable with 10 that. 11 And, Charlie, while you were out of the 12 room, we did a vote. We took an actual vote on 13 number five. And I'm going to -- when we break for 14 lunch, I'm going to go over that with you and make 15 sure that we're okay. 16 Okay. Now I believe, were we on number 17 eight? 18 Yes, Steve Rosenstock. 19 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Yes, Steve Rosenstock, 20 EEI. 21 Again, just in terms of the language in 22 terms of cut off exactly 25 percent of the pumps -

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2012 128 1

- 2 MR. BROOKMAN: Yeah. 3 MR. ROSENSTOCK: And just looking at 4 some of the previous slides, would it be better to 5 say -- I'll just give two options. Either 6 "approximately" or "at least 25 percent," just 7 because you're not going to get exactly 25 8 percent, 25.0 percent. 9 MR. BROOKMAN: How about "as close" -- 10 MR. ROSENSTOCK: "However, not to 11 exceed"? Yeah, whatever. 12 MS. WILLIAMS: Cut off the as near to 25 13 percent of the pumps as possible. 14 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Or a maximum of 25 15 percent. 16 MALE VOICE: A minimum of 25 percent. 17 (Laughter.) 18 MS. WILLIAMS: I mean, we're just going 19 to do what we can. And we'll tell you in the NOPR 20 what it's cutting off. 21 MR. ROSENSTOCK: How many significant 22 digits.

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2012 129 1 MS. WILLIAMS: And you guys can -- 2 (Laughter.) 3 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Alison, how many 4 significant digits? 5 (Chorus of "Don't know.") 6 MS. WIDDER: It's variable because it's 7 based on the number of models in the database. 8 (Inaudible conversation.) 9 MR. BROOKMAN: What are the current 10 words you have there? 11 MS. WILLIAMS: It says, "as near to 25 12 percent as possible." I don't know that we need 13 to wordsmith this. 14 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Okay. 15 So, this recommendation, number nine, 16 is, as they say in the literature, the jewel in 17 the crown. This is important. We went over this 18 in considerable detail. We labored over this. We 19 negotiated back and forth very productively, 20 successfully. I'm hoping this is okay. And, 21 Joanna? 22 MS. MAUER: Just, is it PER 25 or PEI

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2012 130 1 25? Okay. 2 MS. WILLIAMS: It's the same no matter 3 what. But yes. 4 (Laughter.) 5 MR. BROOKMAN: R would be I, wouldn't 6 it? 7 MS. WILLIAMS: Yes. I've changed it. 8 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Thanks, Joanna. 9 Thank you. 10 So then, I'm casting my eyes around the 11 room. I think we were okay with this yesterday. 12 And so I presume we're okay with it today. Yes. 13 Congratulations again, and I will move on. 14 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Doug, Doug. This is 15 Steve Rosenstock. 16 I abstained yesterday. Can I change a 17 vote, or is that not allowed? 18 MR. BROOKMAN: You may change your vote. 19 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Put mine as yes rather 20 than abstain. 21 MR. BROOKMAN: Thank you. 22 Test procedure and metric,

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2012 131 1 recommendation number 10. "Pump test procedure 2 should be in accordance with HI 40.6 for 3 determining bare pump performance." We discussed 4 this. The manufacturing caucus especially wanted 5 to make certain that DOE understood that that was 6 their preference, that that worked, that that be 7 carried forward. 8 The energy efficiency advocates caucus 9 also agreed that that was a sensible thing to do. 10 So that's why that's there. 11 You can see the vote count. There were 12 two abstentions. I should note -- I haven't 13 already noted in the record, we have, of course, a 14 quorum today, as we did yesterday for these votes. 15 So in terms of the ground rules, we're all set. 16 Any additional thoughts or comments on 17 the test procedure? To me, that's kind of a no18 brainer. That's been the basis for our work. 19 So we're moving on to recommendation 20 number 21 11. 22 Steve.

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2012 132 1 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Steve Rosenstock, EEI. 2 In terms of the language for the CL and 3 VL, the PER CL and VL, I'm just kind of going back 4 to our recommendation three, which said, "Test 5 procedure specified for a pump, rating 6 calculations for the energy conservation standards 7 also apply to pumps with non-electric drivers." 8 The way this language is written now, 9 it's only applying to electric drivers. So again, 10 this is just pure test procedure, not metric -- 11 test procedure. So I was wondering if, for the 12 group's consideration if we could do things like 13 instead of "average electric input power," say 14 something like "average electric input power or 15 energy input." 16 And then below, for Pini, say "power or 17 energy input to the pump at the driver." 18 MS. WILLIAMS: So, Steve, currently, I 19 think the metric as we've construed it is only 20 electric input power. And I think if we wanted to 21 change it to something else later, that might be - 22

-

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2012 133 1 MR. ROSENSTOCK: But this is in 2 reference to kind of -- I'm trying to put in 3 language that kind of future-proofs the test 4 procedure to say it's electric now, but it can be 5

-- 6 MS. WILLIAMS: We'll have to change the 7 test procedure if it's expanded to include non8 electric, or to -- yes, to include other than 9 electric motors, the test procedures will have to 10 be revised. 11 MR. ROSENSTOCK: But that is the 12 recommendation. That's part of the recommendation 13 that the test procedure will specify that's not 14 electric drivers as well. 15 MS. WILLIAMS: What? 16 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Recommendation number 17 three, second sentence. 18 MS. WILLIAMS: It says that they will be 19 treated as bare shaft pumps for the purposes of 20 regulation. Right? 21 MR. ROSENSTOCK: No. So, recommendation 22 three says, "The rating calculations for the

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2012 134 1 energy conservation standard also apply to pumps 2 with non- electric drivers." 3 MS. WILLIAMS: That the bare pump rating 4 calculations. 5 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Right. Right. 6 MS. WILLIAMS: So the bare pump will be 7 tested, and it will be -- and default motor values 8 will be applied to it for the rating. 9 MS. WIDDER: And those will still be in 10 units of electric -- 11 MS. WILLIAMS: Yes. 12 MR. ROSENSTOCK: But how is that going 13 to apply for non-electric drivers? 14 MS. WIDDER: So, if you were to -- 15 MR. BROOKMAN: Microphone. 16 MS. WILLIAMS: Sarah, mike. 17 MS. WIDDER: Sorry. So, if you were to 18

-- 19 MR. BROOKMAN: Sarah Widder. 20 MS. WIDDER: This is Sarah from PNNL. 21 If you were to sell a pump with a non22 electric driver --

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2012 135 1 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Yes. 2 MS. WIDDER: -- to comply with, to 3 demonstrate certification for DOE, you would just 4 test the bare shaft pump and then use default 5 motor efficiency and motor loss curves to rate 6 that pump as if it were to be paired with a motor. 7 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Right. 8 MS. WIDDER: And so the P is still 9 representative of electrical input power for the 10 purposes of the metric. However, that pump can be 11 paired with any type of driver in the field. 12 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Steve Rosenstock, EEI. 13 I'm really going to have to think about 14 that, just because of the fact that -- okay. In 15 the future, when DOE makes other rulemakings that, 16 for with non- electric drivers the efficiency 17 ratings are significantly different, you know, 18 non-electric driver might be 27 percent efficient 19 versus a motor of 95 percent efficient. 20 So again, there's going to be different 21 energy being used for that pump and the driver, 22 and their controls might have different impacts on

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2012 136 1 the non- electric driver versus the electric 2 driver. 3 So again, I'm not trying to slow it 4 down. I'm just trying to think about the future 5 where, if DOE does do rulemakings on pumps with 6 non-electric drivers -- because they are out 7 there; we saw that before, especially in the 8 agricultural sector -- that the test procedure 9 should be able to handle -- it shouldn't be -- 10 they're not really equivalent on an energy basis. 11 MS. WILLIAMS: The test procedure will 12 have to be modified. I don't think we can future13 proof this situation here. 14 MS. WIDDER: And the other thing I would 15 say is that this is a pumps rulemaking. 16 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Right. 17 MS. WIDDER: And so we're still covering 18 the pump. And the hydraulic improvements to the 19 pump are still being captured regardless of the 20 driver. 21 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Okay. Okay. 22 MS. WIDDER: And that's really what

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2012 137 1 we're concerned with here today in this 2 rulemaking. So, I would just focus on that for 3 now. And then in the future, if DOE were to 4 revise the metric to cover non- electric drivers 5 or even to cover motors in a meaningful way, which 6 is not being accomplished today, or drivers, 7 VFD's, controls, there's a large scope that's out 8 there. 9 And there are significant modifications, 10 aside from changing how Pi is defined. 11 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Okay. Okay. Now, the 12 only other thought for you is for P input i again, 13 if you scroll down for that one thing. Again, 14 just for people's consideration. 15 MR. BROOKMAN: Steve, what are you 16 referring to? I'm sorry. 17 MR. ROSENSTOCK: The second bullet right 18 there at the bottom, Pini, that one. Do you want 19 to put HP or 20 KW? 21 MS. WILLIAMS: No. 22 MS. WIDDER: No.

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2012 138 1 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Okay. You're just 2 internationally might be in KW ratings. 3 MS. WIDDER: I think it's important that 4 it's horsepower to be consistent with units. 5 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Okay. 6 MS. WIDDER: Okay. 7 MR. BROOKMAN: So, we're on 8 recommendation number 11. And you can see the 9 bracketed words, which are explanatory. "The 10 metric for assessing compliance for the standard 11 should be PEI." Should we spell that out? Have 12 you done that previously? 13 MS. WILLIAMS: It's just below. 14 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay, "which is 15 constructed based on values of PER." That's 16 consistent with all the work we've done in the 17 metrics domain here. These PEI subscript CL PEI 18 subscript VL, these are not -- these are familiar 19 with everyone in the room. 20 MS. WILLIAMS: Yeah. This is all taken 21 directly off the slide that Sarah edited yesterday 22 when you guys voted on this. So it's the same.

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2012 139 1 MR. BROOKMAN: Charlie Cappellino. 2 MR. CAPPELLINO: Just for the sake of 3 clarity, I'm trying to -- if you go back to 4 recommendation number nine, you guys changed the 5 PER to PEI. 6 MS. WILLIAMS: Yeah. 7 MR. CAPPELLINO: I was trying to get it 8 clear in my mind, how does that relate to down 9 below where you have PER and PEI? I've always 10 related PEI to kind of a decimal somewhere between 11

-- 12 (Cross-talk.) 13 MS. WILLIAMS: The 25 percent cuts -- so 14 the 25 is really just representing 25 percent 15 cutoff. And no matter if we use PER or PEI, we 16 would get the same 25 percent cutoff. So, it's 17 just nomenclature. 18 MR. CAPPELLINO: So the 25 is more of a 19 reference nomenclature. 20 MR. BROOKMAN: Al Huber. 21 MR. HUBER: It's my understanding that 22 when we talk about PEI, we're talking about the

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2012 140 1 index and we're talking about a horsepower. 2 When we talk about the cutoff, we're 3 talking about PER and the percentage of cutoff. 4 MR. ADIN: It really doesn't matter 5 which metric you're using. The cutoff is just a 6 percentage of the market. That's really what 7 we're trying to accomplish. 8 MR. HUBER: Right. I understand that. 9 MR. ADIN: Yeah. 10 MR. HUBER: But in the past as we've 11 discussed all this, that's the way we discussed 12 it. I mean, the PEI is a horsepower rating. 13 MS. WIDDER: It's the opposite. 14 MR. HUBER: It's an index. It's not a 15 cutoff. It's an index. 16 MS. WIDDER: PEI is an index. PER is a 17 horsepower rating. 18 MR. HUBER: Right, an index. Thank you. 19 MR. ADIN: Right. Yes. 20 MS. WIDDER: But, however, I will say 21 that PEI 25 equals PER 25. 22 MR. ADIN: Right.

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2012 141 1 MS. WIDDER: And for the purposes of 2 DOE, it's best to have consistent metric. And we 3 talked about putting PEI and the label and 4 reporting PEI, and so specifying the standard in 5 terms of PEI is most consistent. 6 MR. HUBER: So from now on, we're going 7 to reference this PEI and no PER? 8 MR. ADIN: Well -- 9 MS. WIDDER: Yeah. Well, the only 10 reason we split the nomenclature is to be clear 11 about when we were referring to a weighted average 12 input power of the pump over the standard. Yeah. 13 Bob? 14 MR. BARBOUR: Bob Barbour, Taco. 15 MR. BROOKMAN: That was Sarah Widder 16 speaking, now Bob. 17 MR. BARBOUR: I'm sorry. Bob Barbour at 18 Taco. 19 So, my understanding of the PEI is it's 20 actually going to be a value somewhere between 21 maybe a .1 and a 1. It will never be outside of 22 that range.

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2012 142 1 MS. WIDDER: Correct. 2 MR. BARBOUR: For passing pumps. 3 MS. WIDDER: Right. 4 MR. ADIN: Right. So the standard -- 5 MR. BARBOUR: Anything above a 1 would 6 fail? 7 MS. WIDDER: Um-hm. 8 MR. BARBOUR: Right. It's really not a 9 horsepower when you're talking PEI, only when 10 you're talking PER. 11 MS. WIDDER: Correct. 12 MR. ADIN: Yeah. 13 MR. BARBOUR: Because it's actually a 14 ratio. 15 MS. WIDDER: Correct. 16 MR. ADIN: Right. That's an index to a 17 horsepower rating. 18 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. So thanks for that 19 clarification. 20 And I'm looking at the equations that 21 are listed there at the top of -- there are no 22 page numbers

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2012 143 1 -- the following page for recommendation 2 11, where it says, "Pump Energy Rating CL and VL: 3 equally weighted average electric input power to 4 the pump measured paren or calculated at the 5 driver input or when present controls input over a 6 specified low profile," and that's how you derive 7 it. 8 And all of the terms are defined. And 9 our previous work on this resulted in a consensus 10 vote with one abstention and one absent. 11 Additional questions or comments on any 12 of this? 13 Al Huber. 14 MR. HUBER: Al Huber, Patterson. 15 I just want to point out that Alison has 16 added "at full diameter," "full impeller diameter" 17 to this. So this has been added. 18 MS. WILLIAMS: Yes. Sorry. Al and I 19 discussed this earlier. So we're just going to 20 clarify in this recommendation that the PEI and 21 PER are both related to the full impeller 22 diameter.

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2012 144 1 MR. ADIN: And purely for textual 2 clarity -- 3 MS. WILLIAMS: Right. 4 MR. ADIN: -- maybe just put in "PER" 5 before the little subscript VL? 6 MS. WILLIAMS: Oh. 7 MR. ADIN: I think we understand that 8 that's PER CL and VL. But, yeah. 9 MR. BROOKMAN: So this is consistent 10 with the previous conversation we had already this 11 morning? 12 MS. WILLIAMS: Yep. 13 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. So any 14 reservations or concerns about that? 15 I see none. Okay. So then, that's 16 good. 17 And we're moving on to labeling 18 recommendations. As I read through all these 19 recommendations, this group really has been very 20 productive. 21 (Laughter.) 22 MR. BROOKMAN: Covered a lot of ground

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2012 145 1 here in the span of these negotiations. 2 Recommendation 12, "Pumps are labeled 3 based on the configuration in which they are sold. 4 The following information would be required to be 5 included on a pump nameplate," and you can see the 6 items listed for a bare pump: PEI CL, model 7 number, and impeller diameter for each unit; bare 8 pump plus motor: the same; and bare pump plus 9 motor and controls: also the same. 10 MS. WILLIAMS: No, it's PEI VL instead 11 of CL. 12 MR. BROOKMAN: Thank you. PEI VL. 13 Thank you for that correction. 14 Yes, Steve Rosenstock. 15 MR. ROSENSTOCK: And again, Steve 16 Rosenstock, 17 EEI. 18 I'm sorry I wasn't here for yesterday's 19 conversation. But, you know, just thinking about 20 -- I would -- again, this is just my own personal 21 thought, showing both the CL and the VL for the 22 bare pump motor and controls, because that way you

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2012 146 1 can kind of do an apples-to-apples comparison. 2 If you have -- if you're in the 3 marketplace, if you are a customer, you have a 4 choice -- let's say you have a choice for the bare 5 pump and a motor and a bare pump-motor-controls. 6 Both might be helpful. For whatever reason if for 7 some reason, if something five years down the 8 line, that pump is going to only be constant load, 9 it's good to know that, you know, what is the PEI 10 with the controls, compared to the pump and motor 11 without the controls? 12 So -- 13 MR. BROOKMAN: Al Huber. 14 MR. HUBER: We had much discussion about 15 that yesterday. Since we have no control over 16 whose control somebody puts on there, we are very 17 hesitant to put any labeling on there that relates 18 to controls unless we sell it. If we sell it, 19 then we'll label it with the PEI VL. If we don't 20 sell it, then we're not going to label it for 21 that. We'll label it with the CL. 22 All the literature that we have will

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2012 147 1 reflect both cases. And the customer can go and 2 take a look at that. But, you know, from a legal 3 standpoint, we don't want to be labeling something 4 we're not responsible for. We don't know what 5 control they put on it. That's the reason we 6 didn't do that. 7 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay, Steve? 8 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Yeah. 9 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Okay. 10 So then, considerable discussion on this 11 yesterday. I think we're ready to move on. Yes? 12 Yes. Bob Barbour. 13 MR. BARBOUR: Bob Barbour from Taco. 14 I didn't know if Steve wanted to change 15 any of his votes to reduce the number of 16 abstentions that we've had on any of these ones 17 that we've gone through. I noticed when I 18 initially started to look at working groups and 19 listened in to an ASRAC committee meeting, they 20 seemed to have a lot of sensitivity to abstentions 21 and "no" votes. So I didn't know if we wanted to 22 try to reduce what we showed for the number of

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2012 148 1 abstentions on the voting. 2 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. 3 MR. BARBOUR: So I just wanted to bring 4 that up and give Steve the opportunity, if he 5 wanted, to make any voting. 6 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Steve Rosenstock, EEI. 7 Thank you for that. For number 12, 8 please change my abstain to yes. 9 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Thank you, Steve. 10 MALE VOICE: What about 11? 11 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Steve Rosenstock, EEI. 12 No change. 13 MR. BROOKMAN: No change. Okay. 14 Now we're moving on to certification 15 reporting requirements, recommendation number 13. 16 Sarah and I had a brief conversation at the break. 17 We weren't 100 percent certain that we voted on 18 this, but apparently we did. 19 MS. WIDDER: Yes. 20 MR. BROOKMAN: And so you can see -- we 21 had considerable discussion on this yesterday. 22 Those items listed there, "Recommended data to be

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2012 149 1 included in the certification reports database." 2 This is the report you would send to 3 ASRAC and they would then send to DOE -- 4 manufacturer name, model numbers, equipment class, 5 PEI CL or PEI VL subscripts, as applicable, BEP 6 flow rate and head, rated speed, number of stages 7 tested, full impeller diameter, whether the PEI CL 8 subscript or PEI VL subscript is calculated or 9 tested, input power to the pump at each load 10 point. 11 And yesterday we had 13 yeses and two 12 abstentions and one absent on this recommendation. 13 So, additional thoughts on the 14 certification reporting requirements? Steve? 15 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Steve Rosenstock, EEI. 16 Just a quick question for full impeller 17 diameters, the actual -- is that the length? 18 That's the length of it, right? 19 MR. BROOKMAN: Would you repeat that, 20 please? 21 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Steve Rosenstock, EEI. 22 For the full impeller diameter, you're

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2012 150 1 reporting the length? That's what you're 2 reporting, right? 3 MS. WILLIAMS: The diameter. 4 MR. ROSENSTOCK: There it's a full 5 departure. 6 (Cross-talk.) 7 MR. ROSENSTOCK: I'm sorry. 8 MR. BROOKMAN: Yes. 9 MR. ROSENSTOCK: It would be in 10 centimeters. It's going to be in centimeters. 11 Now it's going to say full versus trimmed 12 impeller. That's what I'm trying to say. Okay. 13 It's full, and it's going to be in centimeters or 14 inches or whatever. That's all. 15 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Thank you. 16 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Because of the 17 discussion before about full versus trim. 18 MR. BROOKMAN: I'm with you. 19 Everybody okay with this? We're about 20 to move on. 21 Okay. Then recommendation -- 22 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Wait a minute. Steve

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2012 151 1 Rosenstock, EEI. 2 Change my abstain to yes. 3 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Thank you. 4 Fourteen yeses, one abstention. 5 Then, recommendation number 14, 6 "Certification for RSV and VTS pumps shall be 7 based on testing with the following number of 8 stages." We uncovered this yesterday. RSV: three 9 stages. VTS: nine stages. And then the 10 additional clarifying bullet, "unless a model is 11 not available with that specific number of stages 12 in the given scope, in which case the model will 13 be tested and certified with the next-higher 14 number of stages." 15 Steve, you missed a detailed 16 conversation on this one. 17 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Steve Rosenstock, EEI. 18 So, in the case of VTS, again, if it's 19 not available with nine stages in that scope, it 20 "will be tested and certified with the next-higher 21 number of stages" as designated by who? DOE or 22 manufacturers or Hydraulic Institute?

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2012 152 1 MR. HUBER: The intent here is if 2 there's a manufacturer who doesn't make a nine3 stage, that he makes an eight-stage, then he would 4 submit it at its largest number of stages, at 5 eight. So it's up to the manufacturer. 6 MR. ADIN: And Steve, just for 7 clarification, I think that was the intent in 8 including the number of stages tested in the 9 reported data so that there be certainty about 10 what was actually tested to obtain that rating. 11 MR. HUBER: And so that you understand, 12 it was discussed yesterday that, with the more 13 number of stages, the pump generally gets more 14 efficient because of the losses with fewer number 15 of stages in the suction at discharge. 16 (Pause.) 17 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. So are you okay? 18 Do you wish to change your vote from an abstain to 19 a yes? 20 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Yes. 21 MS. WILLIAMS: Can we -- sorry, I just 22 want to clarify how you guys interpret "next-

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2012 153 1 higher." Is it -- would you interpret it as eight 2 or as ten? 3 MR. HUBER: That's not right. 4 MS. WILLIAMS: This is what the EU said. 5 So we were thinking maybe we should clarify it. 6 MS. WIDDER: Right. For us, for our 7 purposes. 8 MS. WILLIAMS: So -- 9 MR. TOWSLEY: Greg Towsley. 10 MS. WIDDER: The highest available? 11 MR. TOWSLEY: Greg Towsley, Grundfos. 12 Highest-available is fine, because in 13 some cases we may only have five stages. At the 14 same time, there may be -- we may not offer the 15 nine; it may be ten. And -- 16 MS. WILLIAMS: Right. So if you -- like 17 if you only offer ones above nine, you would want 18 a rate above -- 19 MR. TOWSLEY: I think that's fine right 20 there. 21 MS. WILLIAMS: It's fine? 22 MR. TOWSLEY: Yeah.

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2012 154 1 MS. WILLIAMS: Okay. So if you only 2 made up to five, you would rate with five. And if 3 you only made it down to 10, you would rate at 10? 4 Or is this what this is saying? We just copied it 5 from the EU requirements. So we just want to make 6 sure the language is clear. 7 (Pause.) 8 MS. WILLIAMS: But we don't want them to 9 rate like a 50-stage pump. 10 MR. HUBER: Well, this is assuming that 11 you don't make any that low. 12 MS. WILLIAMS: Right. 13 MR. HUBER: With that number of stages, 14 you don't make -- so you only do it to four. 15 MS. WIDDER: Right. 16 MS. WILLIAMS: Right. 17 MR. HUBER: So then you've gotten -- 18 MS. WALTNER: Al, could you use your 19 mike? 20 MR. BROOKMAN: Al Huber, please. 21 MR. HUBER: The way this -- Al Huber. 22 The way this reads, the way that you

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2012 155 1 have it now, it's if a manufacturer made it four, 2 then that's where you would test it if he didn't 3 make it at three. 4 MS. WILLIAMS: Okay. 5 MR. HUBER: That's the intent. I think 6 that's the intent of what they're saying. But 7 it's not really very clear. 8 MS. WILLIAMS: Right. And I'm worried 9 about if it's the other way also. 10 MR. HUBER: The other way around. 11 MS. WIDDER: Right. 12 MR. HUBER: Yeah, me, too. 13 MS. WILLIAMS: So, does anybody have 14 suggestions for clarifying this? 15 MR. HUBER: Well, I almost think if -- 16 you want to be able to set it. If all of them 17 make three or all of them make nine, you want them 18 all tested at the same number of stages, I think. 19 MS. WILLIAMS: Yep. 20 MR. HUBER: If they don't make that, 21 then it should be the closest or -- the closest to 22 that they offer for sale.

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2012 156 1 MS. WILLIAMS: Right. Okay. 2 MR. ADIN: So if they only make -- 3 MR. HUBER: A two. 4 MR. ADIN: -- pumps with more than nine, 5 it's the lowest number. 6 MR. HUBER: It's nine. You test at 7 nine. 8 MR. ADIN: Nine. Yeah. And if they 9 only make it with less, then it's whatever it is, 10 the highest. 11 MR. HUBER: It's whatever it is. 12 MR. ADIN: Right. Okay. 13 MS. WIDDER: Would there ever be a case 14 where someone made like eight and ten, but not 15 nine? 16 MR. HUBER: I would doubt it. All 17 things are possible, but I doubt it. 18 MR. ADIN: Well, if it's possible, we 19 should probably -- 20 MS. WIDDER: Perhaps. Just pick one? I 21 mean, not like -- we should specify it. It should 22 be the higher or the lower in that case.

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2012 157 1 (Cross-talk.) 2 MR. HUBER: It's not likely. It's not 3 likely. Otherwise, we're going to be here all day. 4 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Steve Rosenstock, EEI. 5 Again, maybe it's good to put some 6 numbers out there. Say, you know, okay, VTS type 7 of pump, one manufacturer makes it with five 8 stages, the other one makes it with fifteen. What 9 do you test to? 10 (Pause.) 11 MS. WILLIAMS: How -- like, Greg, do you 12 have -- or Mark, do you guys have any idea how 13 common it is for these number of stages to not be 14 available? 15 (Pause.) 16 MS. WILLIAMS: Anybody who would like to 17 volunteer. 18 MR. TOWSLEY: Greg Towsley, Grundfos. 19 I know that we have some VTS products 20 that don't go to nine stages, and we're limiting 21 them due to shaft diameter, horsepower limitations 22 on the shaft diameter.

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2012 158 1 MS. WILLIAMS: Okay. 2 MR. TOWSLEY: So you start getting up 3 there. You have to go to a larger shaft, and it 4 just doesn't make sense. 5 MS. WILLIAMS: Yeah. 6 MR. TOWSLEY: So, yeah. We have some 7 that are maybe four, three, five stages or six, 8 seven, or maybe even just eight. But RSV -- I 9 think all of ours that are within the -- well, all 10 of them are within scope of 200 horsepower. I 11 think we have, max, three stages for our RSV's 12 ourselves, but nothing less than that. 13 (Pause.) 14 MR. HUBER: Can you put "the highest 15 number of stages offered for sale"? 16 MS. WILLIAMS: Only in the one case. 17 Right, with the highest number of stages offered 18 for sale. Because if there's a case where they 19 only have above nine stages, we don't want it 20 rated with like a gazillion stages, right? That 21 is not likely to happen. 22 MR. TOWSLEY: Greg Towsley, Grundfos.

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2012 159 1 I don't know that anybody would not 2 offer, you know, have an eight stage and then a 3 ten stage or some combination. 4 MS. WILLIAMS: Okay. 5 MR. TOWSLEY: But I don't know that 6 there's any way that it could be gained by saying 7 if you say the next higher one, the nine or the 8 next lower -- I don't know that there's -- it can 9 be gained in any way. 10 MS. WILLIAMS: Yeah. I mean, that's 11 what I was trying to write in the footnote. Am I 12 saying that or no? 13 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Steve Rosenstock, EEI. 14 Use "the lowest available stage" -- that 15 sentence doesn't make sense. Lowest number, 16 available number of stages? But not less than 17 three or nine. 18 MR. HUBER: "The lowest number of stages 19 offered for sale." You don't need to say 20 "available." 21 MS. WILLIAMS: Oh. Yes. 22 MR. HUBER: Now you've got it. You've

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2012 160 1 got all cases covered. 2 MS. WILLIAMS: Okay. Lovely. Thank 3 you. 4 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Just so we note 5 what this is, the footnote says, that supplements 6 bullet three, "If only fewer than the required 7 number of stages are available, rate with the 8 highest number of stages offered for sale. If 9 only more than the required number of stages are 10 available, use the lowest number of stages offered 11 for sale." 12 And so we think that covers it. 13 Charlie Cappellino. 14 MR. CAPPELLINO: Charlie Cappellino. 15 So the third bullet up there, Alison, 16 where it says, "unless a model is not available," 17 wouldn't that read better if it would say "if a 18 model is not available"? 19 MS. WILLIAMS: Yeah. Yep. 20 MR. BROOKMAN: And Al Iseppon has a 21 comment. 22 Al, I believe you're unmuted. If you

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2012 161 1 speak, we should be able to hear you. 2 (Pause.) 3 MR. ADIN: Actually, Alison, the way 4 that it's modified now, you might want to get rid 5 of "in which case," because the way that was 6 written before. So if "model" is -- do you see 7 what I mean? 8 MS. WILLIAMS: Yeah. 9 MR. ADIN: Okay. 10 MS. WILLIAMS: Okay. 11 MR. ADIN: It's clearer. 12 MS. WALTNER: Doug, this is Meg. 13 It seems like now the only situation 14 that is unclear is if there is both an eight and 15 ten stage model available. 16 MS. WILLIAMS: Yeah. I mean, we can try 17 to clean this up in the regs if we need to. 18 MS. WALTNER: Okay. That's fine. 19 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. 20 MS. WILLIAMS: Sarah has a -- 21 MS. WIDDER: I agree with Alison. I 22 mean, I think I think we can be abundantly clear

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2012 162 1 and precise in the regs. I just didn't know if 2 the manufacturers had any opinion on in the rare 3 case that a model was offered with eight and ten, 4 that whether we round up or round down. 5 MR. BROOKMAN: Right. 6 Al Huber. 7 MR. HUBER: No, we don't have a 8 preference. 9 MS. WIDDER: Okay. Great. Thank you. 10 MR. HUBER: I don't think you're going 11 to find the rare case, quite frankly. But -- 12 MS. WIDDER: Right. We just, you know, 13 want to be sure. Thank you. 14 MR. BROOKMAN: So then, and we should 15 also reflect that Steve, I believe, you said in 16 this case you remove your abstention and vote yes? 17 So it will be 15 yeses and zero abstentions? 18 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Steve Rosenstock, EEI. 19 I'm saying it now, yes. 20 (Laughter.) 21 MS. WILLIAMS: I don't remember that. 22 MR. BROOKMAN: Oh, I guess I

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2012 163 1 misinterpreted. Sorry. Thank you. Thank you. 2 So that, and there's one other 3 correction. In the appendix, Appendix A, this 4 does not list Howard Richardson at Regal Beloit as 5 a member. So there's one name short on this list. 6 I don't know how that happened. 7 MS. WILLIAMS: I just copied it from 8 your interim report, Doug. 9 MR. BROOKMAN: I know. This is an error 10 in my interim report, one of many, in fact, that 11 were corrected by Alison. 12 (Laughter.) 13 MR. BROOKMAN: So, I just make as a 14 notation that that makes the full number of 15 members here for the working group 16. So that's 16 another correction. 17 So I believe that is -- that's all of 18 it. That is the entire term sheet. With these 19 edits, this information will be sent to ASRAC in 20 its current form. ASRAC will consider it and then 21 decide what to do with it. 22 Tom, do you want to say anything more

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2012 164 1 about that? 2 MR. ECKMAN: I'll support it as far as I 3 can. 4 (Laughter.) 5 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. 6 MR. ECKMAN: We'll see if we can get the 7 votes out of it. 8 MS. WALTNER: This is Meg again. Sorry. 9 I think I missed the language on pool 10 pumps. Could you -- I missed the discussion there. 11 I must have been calling back in. Could you go 12 back to that language just so I could see what we 13 decided on? 14 MR. BROOKMAN: Five. 15 MS. WALTNER: Okay. All right. That 16 looks all right. And you can count me as a yes 17 for that, Doug. 18 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Thank you. 19 MS. WILLIAMS: Wait. Oh. Charlie 20 didn't -- did you vote on these? 21 MR. BROOKMAN: No. He didn't. 22 MS. WALTNER: Did you already count me

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2012 165 1 as a yes? Correct. 2 MS. WILLIAMS: So is my vote -- I must 3 have already counted -- oh, yes. Jeremiah gave us 4 a note that says -- 5 MS. WALTNER: I might have -- I thought 6 we were just voting on the circulators part. I 7 had missed the pool pump language. And I had 8 tried to vote through the chat, and you already 9 counted me. 10 MS. WILLIAMS: Oh, yes. I counted you. 11 Sorry. 12 MS. WALTNER: Okay. That's fine. 13 MR. BROOKMAN: And I told Charlie that 14 I'd go over this with him. 15 MS. WILLIAMS: Okay. 16 MR. BROOKMAN: Whenever we break, to 17 make sure you're comfortable. 18 Did Bob brief you, so you're okay? 19 MS. WILLIAMS: Would you like to vote 20 yes? 21 MR. CAPPELLINO: I vote yes. 22 MS. WILLIAMS: Okay.

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2012 166 1 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. That was Charlie. 2 So then, thanks to all of you for this 3 detailed review, consistent with the work, all 4 this working group has done all these many months, 5 very detailed review on every single thing, which 6 is good. That's the way it should be. 7 These edits will be finalized in the 8 term sheet that will be sent to ASRAC. And what 9 I'd like to do now is confirm one final time -- 10 Gary, before -- Gary, just one second. I'd like 11 to confirm shortly that where all members of the 12 working group are with respect to final approval 13 of the term sheet. And then following that, any 14 other issues that anybody wishes to raise, this is 15 an opportunity to do that. 16 And also, any closing remarks, we'll do 17 that as well before we leave here today. 18 Gary Ferstrom. 19 MR. FERSTROM: This is Gary. 20 I'd like to ask that the attribution 21 behind my name be changed from the California 22 IOU's to the names of those individual utilities.

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2012 167 1 MR. BROOKMAN: Thank you. 2 MR. FERSTROM: Thank you. 3 MR. BROOKMAN: Easily done. 4 Any other issues that anybody wishes to 5 raise before we seek final confirmation from the 6 working group? 7 Al Huber. 8 MR. HUBER: I really don't have an issue 9 with it, just a question. Can we -- once we vote 10 on this, if we voted, can we get a copy of this 11 before we leave, please? 12 MR. BROOKMAN: I believe -- 13 MR. ADIN: Yes. 14 MR. BROOKMAN: Yes, we can. Okay. 15 MR. ADIN: You mean a printed copy or -- 16 yes. Yeah, we can do that. Email is okay? Okay. 17 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Steve Rosenstock. 18 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Just a quick one, I 19 guess. I didn't check. When is the next ASRAC 20 meeting? 21 MALE VOICE: Jeremiah is working on 22 that.

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2012 168 1 MR. FREEMAN: We currently have a closed 2 meeting to discuss the new working groups mid3 July. And then during that meeting, we'll discuss 4 the formal open meeting, which this will probably 5 be discussed at. 6 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Thank you very much. 7 MR. BROOKMAN: So, I'm ready to seek 8 confirmation on over six months of work from this 9 working group. And I'm very proud to have been a 10 part of this effort and to get us all to this 11 point, with you. So, I'm going to pose the 12 question now. 13 All those in favor of accepting all the 14 elements in this edited term sheet -- 15 (Pause.) 16 MS. WILLIAMS: Sorry. 17 MR. BROOKMAN: Is that substantive? 18 MS. WILLIAMS: No. 19 (Laughter.) 20 MR. BROOKMAN: All those in favor of 21 accepting these final edits to this term sheet, as 22 we have edited and gone through in considerable

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2012 169 1 detail this morning, please signify by raising 2 your hand. 3 And I see all members present have 4 registered they intend to vote yes. 5 Meg, are you with us? 6 MS. WALTNER: Yes. 7 MR. BROOKMAN: Thank you very much. 8 So this, I believe, concludes the work 9 of this working group. Congratulations. This has 10 been a very successful effort. 11 (Applause.) 12 MR. BROOKMAN: And now for my part, I'll 13 simply say thank you all. This has been -- it's 14 been a pleasure to work with you. And I 15 appreciate your endurance and intelligence and the 16 hard work you've put in. And I welcome any other 17 closing remarks at this point. 18 Lucas Adin. 19 MR. ADIN: I just wanted to personally 20 recognize the efforts of our analytical team. 21 They've done an enormous amount of work in support 22 of this.

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2012 170 1 (Applause.) 2 MR. ADIN: And I think, as you've seen 3 based on the emails, the times the emails were 4 sent out, some late nights. So I wanted to 5 express my appreciation. So, thank you. 6 (Chorus of "Thank you.") 7 MR. BROOKMAN: Tom Eckman. 8 MR. ECKMAN: I will endeavor to carry 9 this forward to ASRAC, and I want to thank the 10 manufacturers for all of your efforts in 11 accommodating our behavior. 12 (Laughter.) 13 MR. HUBER: On behalf of the 14 manufacturers, you're welcome. 15 (Laughter.) 16 MR. HUBER: No. We really -- you know, 17 we appreciate everybody's efforts and the work 18 that's gone into this from everybody. And, you 19 know, I think it's been a good effort. 20 MR. BROOKMAN: Thank you. 21 So, yes, Charlie Cappellino. 22 MR. CAPPELLINO: Just a couple of more

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2012 171 1 people to recognize here. I think, Doug, you've 2 done a fantastic job for us facilitating a fairly 3 long and lengthy process. And I can't think of a 4 better guy to kind of try and guide us through 5 this. 6 And I also wanted to thank Lucas. I 7 mean, just from a professional standpoint and at 8 least my first dealings with these kinds of 9 negotiations and such, I think Lucas has done a 10 fantastic job in kind of creating that balance, 11 right, of how do we do things and keep things 12 going right. 13 So I just wanted to recognize both of 14 you guys as well. 15 MR. BROOKMAN: Thank you very much. 16 Thank you. 17 (Applause.) 18 MR. BROOKMAN: So then, you're welcome 19 to hang around, but I wish you safe travels. I 20 think we're done. Are we done? I think we're 21 finished. 22 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Steve Rosenstock, EEI.

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2012 172 1 Just as a local person here, they are 2 calling for pretty big thunderstorms this 3 afternoon. Don't know what time people's flights 4 are scheduled. You might want to try to get on an 5 earlier flight, just FYI. They are calling for 6 some pretty severe storms this afternoon. 7 MR. BARBOUR: How will we get 8 notification on these other rulemakings so that 9 we'll be able to make sure that we have our input 10 and opportunity to review those rulemakings as far 11 as like the test standards and procedures, et 12 cetera? 13 (Inaudible conversation.) 14 (Whereupon, at 11:12 a.m., the 15 meeting was adjourned.) 16 17 18 19 20 21 22

### Capital Reporting Company Commercial Industrial Pumps Working Group 06-19-2014

1 CERTIFICATE OF COURT REPORTER 2 3 4 I, CHAZ BENNETT, the reporter before whom the 5 foregoing hearing was taken, do hereby certify 6 that the witness whose testimony appears in the 7 foregoing deposition was duly sworn by me; that 8 the testimony of said witness was recorded by me 9 and thereafter reduced to typewriting under my 10 direction; that said deposition is a true record 11 of the testimony given by said witness; that I am 12 neither counsel for, related to, nor employed by 13 any of the parties to the action in which this 14 deposition was taken; and, further, that I am not 15 a relative or employee of any counselor attorney 16 employed by the parties hereto, nor financially or 17 otherwise interested in the outcome of this 18 action. 19 20 21 22 CHAZ BENNETT

(866) 448 - DEPO 

### www.CapitaIReportingCompany.com © 

### 2012 173

### Capital Reporting Company Commercial Industrial Pumps Working Group 06-19-2014

1 CERTIFICATE OF TRANSCRIPTION 2 3 I , ELLEN SANDERS, hereby certify that I am not the 4 Court Reporter who reported the following 5 proceeding and that I have typed the transcript of 6 this proceeding using the Court Reporter's notes 7 and recordings. The foregoing/attached transcript 8 is a true, correct, and complete transcription of 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 said

Date proceeding.

ELLEN SANDERS Transcriptionist

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2012 1 1 44:10 50:16 51:4 62:16 71:19 74:12 112:10 141:21 142:5 1,800 87:2 119:18 1.1 33:14 10 87:1 108:15 122:14 131:1 154:3 10:18 109:15 100 148:17 1000 1:12 11 44:1 47:3 91:8 97:19 120:7 121:17 131:21 138:8 143:2 148:10 11:12 172:14 12 145:2 148:7 120 87:1 13 148:15 149:11 14 117:16 151:5 15 162:17 16 163:15 19 1:7 19th 4:7 2 2 50:16 51:4 62:16 112:10 200 37:9 86:18 124:18 125:6,15 126:15 158:10 200-horsepower 30:10 2014 1:7 4:7 81:22 82:1 110:13 113:8 2015 63:2 70:21 80:15 112:20 113:4 20585 1:12 25 86:20 119:20 122:2,4,12,13 123:1,10,20 127:22 128:6,7,12,14,16 129:11,22 130:1 139:13,14,16,18 140:21 25.0 128:8 25.2 122:16 25.3 122:16 25.5 123:1 250 126:15 26 123:18 26th 81:22 27 123:18 135:18 3 3 50:17 51:4 62:16 108:2 112:10 125:14 126:10 3,600 87:2 119:18 30 71:19 31st81:21 4 40 34:14 120:7 40.6 27:22 59:3,4,9 131:2 429.11 33:4 45 34:10 459 86:21 5 500 37:6 500-horsepower 37:7 50-stage154:9 547/2012 121:17,19 5A79:4 112:9 117:1 5B 78:16 113:6 117:2 6 6/19 50:5 6A85:14 6B 85:14 6C 85:15 8 8:25 1:8 80 122:21 9 9:58 109:14 90-day71:1 95 10:20 33:13 135:19 A a.m1:8 109:14,16 172:14 ABB 2:20 6:3 able 17:9 24:12 67:21 69:2 77:9 124:5 136:9 155:16 161:1 172:9

absences 116:16,18,19 117:17 absent116:9,10 143:10 149:12 absolutely40:19 100:1 123:13 abstain 130:20 148:8 151:2 152:18 abstained 130:16 abstention 48:9 143:10 151:4 162:16 abstentions 131:12 147:16,20 148:1 149:12 162:17 abundantly 161:22 accept 43:15 90:18 accepted47:7 69:16 accepting115:22 168:13,21 accommodating 170:11 accomplish 61:12 94:5 140:7 accomplished 137:6 accomplishes 32:15 accomplishing 127:5 accordance131:2 according13:6

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2012 22:19 account78:1 accurate53:11,12 achieved 46:17 across 20:22 34:18 action 173:13,18 actual25:4 31:7 43:5 50:7 88:9 127:12 149:17 actually7:11 14:22 17:17 21:2 25:16 34:12,14 75:14 91:11 94:3 98:14 105:21 124:11 141:20 142:13 152:10 161:3 add 48:18,22 89:7 101:9 114:7 added 87:22 92:3,11 99:9,17 101:4 103:16 126:4 143:16,17 adding 92:5 addition 7:17 50:22 88:7 99:10,18 101:4 103:14 107:21 117:12 additional 41:17 45:8 49:16 54:13 62:18 66:10 68:16 82:2 87:11,13 88:17 112:11 113:5 117:11 118:22 131:16 143:11 149:13 151:10 additionally 107:12 add-ons 59:4

address 8:18 9:1 12:17 58:3,4 100:20 addressed 9:5 57:15 80:5 Adin 2:15 5:16 7:19 8:18 11:17 12:2,6 13:11 14:12,14 16:11 17:17 18:3,6 19:6 20:7 22:3,20 23:1,6,10,21 24:3,7,10,14,17, 21 25:3,12,17,20 26:4,8 28:4 32:14 38:3,4 39:2,21 40:9 41:8,11 42:14,20 49:4 53:19 54:8 56:19 57:15 58:5,8 68:10,11 72:10,11 73:8,17 77:6 79:21 91:11,14 94:2,14 98:17 99:1 100:6,13,16 101:14,22 102:19 103:4 104:7 105:2,18 107:11,16 109:8 115:13,18 123:11 140:4,9,19,22 141:8 142:4,12,16 144:1,4,7 152:6 156:2,4,8,12,18 161:3,9,11 167:13,15 169:18,19 170:2 adjourned 172:15 adjust15:20 75:19

adjusting 10:17 adjustment11:1 adopt27:9 adopting 27:17 advance 53:3 advantage 68:16 advocates 61:20 62:19,20 71:8 112:12,13 131:8 affiliation 4:14 afford 32:7 afternoon 7:14 172:3,6 agreed69:22 77:1 131:9 agreement43:14 56:16 67:21 72:2 74:16 agreements 43:13,15 agricultural136:8 ahead 16:9 45:13 55:2,6 82:20 101:7 103:22 105:19 115:11 121:21 AHRI 27:3 aim63:1 112:19 airtight94:7,22 Al2:4 4:18 19:17 21:8,9 30:22 35:1 37:15 43:8,17 45:14 52:2 55:6 58:22 60:5 64:3 69:12 113:9 120:19,22 139:20 143:13,14,18

146:13 154:18,20,21 160:20,22 162:6 167:7 Alascio 2:20 6:3 align 28:6 Alison 2:18 6:1 43:21 51:14 73:22 77:13 80:11 92:9,11 93:5 97:18 103:11 109:18 112:7 114:7 118:14 125:20 129:3 143:15 160:15 161:3,21 163:11 Alison's 74:3 88:7 101:1 allow 23:12 57:12 allowance 30:14 allowed 96:7 130:17 allows 96:4 alluded 29:13 already21:17 22:18 34:15 38:9 45:9 55:19 73:11 93:3 114:11 118:9 131:13 144:10 164:22 165:3,8 alternative29:3 am35:9 159:11 173:11,14 174:3 American 2:14 5:15 34:5 amiss 119:11

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2012 among33:19 amongst 53:4 amount 46:1 169:21 analogous 37:11 analysis 48:10 55:20 56:18 57:6,8,9 58:19 60:18 63:4 65:18 69:1 71:17 73:12 78:20 112:22 114:5 analysts 57:13 analytic 68:7 analytical57:21 58:4,11 68:15 119:21 121:3 169:20 and/or 105:14 annual 33:10 answer23:19 anticipate 61:9 anybody118:6 126:5 155:13 157:16 159:1 166:14 167:4 anyone 61:16 92:13 anything 7:22 8:2 37:22 44:17 72:12 112:1 113:22 119:11 142:5 163:22 anywhere 66:3 Apologies 6:22 apologize 124:3,11 apparently148:18 appeared 18:11 appears 173:6 appendix 163:3 Applause 169:11 170:1 171:17 apples-to-apples 146:1 Appliance 2:13 5:13 appliances 26:21 applicable 32:15 149:5 application 11:19 applications 82:10,11 83:21 84:5 applied 134:8 applies 86:19 106:14 120:12,14 apply11:22 14:8 32:11 46:14 61:17 108:6 132:7 134:1,13 applying 132:9 appreciate86:10 88:4 169:15 170:17 appreciation 170:5 approach 16:21 17:22 18:8,19 70:3 approaching 18:16 appropriate 9:21 10:4,11 11:5 28:9 38:7 39:10 approval112:8 166:12

approve 62:13 92:18 107:19 approved 49:16,18 54:13 63:5 101:11 113:2,11 approximately 128:6 April53:10 63:2 71:4 arbitrary 83:12 aren't15:19 79:7 101:16 arrived47:16 48:7 87:7 107:18 articulate22:12 Ashley8:20 17:4 19:3 41:13 aside 137:10 aspects 9:18,20 ASRAC 6:19 48:16 49:16 52:4 53:16 54:3,13 55:4,14 60:10,14 61:6,11,16 63:5 64:6 65:17 67:6,9,19,22 68:5,14,16 70:13 71:2 74:22 75:9 76:8,9 113:1,11,21 147:19 149:3 163:19,20 166:8 167:19 170:9 ASRAC-type 69:10 assessing 138:10 assets 55:10 association 27:1,7,17

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