EXECUTIVE COURT REPORTERS, INC. (301) 565-0064 UNITED STATES OF AMERICA

DEPARTMENT OF ENERGY

**PUBLIC MEETING**

ON

**TEST PROCEDURES FOR FURNACES AND BOILER MEETING (INCORPORATED BY REFERENCE IEC)** 

U.S. Department of Energy 1000 Independence Avenue, SW Washington, DC 20585 Room 1E44

Monday October 3, 2011

**Chair:**

Mohammed Khan

**Facilitator:** Doug Brookman Public Solutions Baltimore, MDEXECUTIVE COURT REPORTERS, INC. (301) 565-0064 2 **Participants Identified:**

Joanna Mauer Appliance Standards Awareness Project (ASAP) 529 14 th St. NW, Suite 500 Washington, DC 20045

Frank Stanonik Chief Technical Advisor Air conditioning, Heating, and Refrigeration Institute 2111 Wilson Boulevard Suite 500 Arlington, VA 22201

John Michael Talbottt Consultant NIST/DOE William Healy, Ph.D. NIST 100 Bureau Drive, Stop 8632 Gaithersburg, MD 20899

**Participants from DOE:**

Mohammed Khan Building Technologies Ari Altman, General Counsel’s office

**Presenters:**

Mohammed Khan DOE

John Talbott Consultant NIST/DOEEXECUTIVE COURT REPORTERS, INC. (301) 565-0064 3

**AGENDA**

**ITEM PAGE**  Welcome, Doug Brookman 4 Opening Remarks, Mr. Khan 4

Introductions 6 Agenda Review, Doug Brookman 7 Rulemaking Overview, Mr. Khan 8 Regulatory History, Mr. Khan 10 Proposed Amendments, Mr. Talbott 14

Additional Remarks 19 Closing Remarks 22EXECUTIVE COURT REPORTERS, INC. (301) 565-0064 4

P R O C E E D I N G S 1 MR. BROOKMAN: Good morning everybody and 2 welcome. This is the test procedures for 3 residential furnaces and boilers, with incorporation 4 of second edition of I.E.C. 62301 standard, 5 addressing energy use in standby mode and off mode, 6 a Notice of Proposed Rulemaking, public meeting. 7 Today is October 3, 2011, here in the Forestall 8 Building in Washington, D.C. My name is Doug 9 Brookman. I’m the facilitator for today from Public 10 Solutions in Baltimore. We’re going to start off 11 this morning with welcoming remarks from Mohammed 12

Khan. 13 **Welcoming Remarks** 14 MR. KHAN: Thank you, Doug. Good morning. 15 Mohammed Khan, Department of Energy. First, I’d 16 like to express appreciation for everyone’s 17 participation here today. As all of you know that 18 might be familiar with the public meetings that the 19 Department of Energy puts on, I always emphasize the 20 importance of the comments and the participation for 21 the stakeholders and how that’s invaluable to us in 22 the development of our standards as well as the test 23EXECUTIVE COURT REPORTERS, INC. (301) 565-0064 5 procedurals that we do. 1 This particular Rulemaking, which is for 2 the test procedures for furnaces and boilers, may be 3 -- I don’t know if everyone knows or not, but we’ve 4 been working on for a while now, and I’m happy to 5 see that we’re at the final stages of it. You may 6 or may not know that this particular Rulemaking took 7 on a couple of different phases or different 8 approaches. We initially proposed a rule which did 9 not include any kind of integration to the AFUE 10 metric, and then later decided to propose an 11 integrated AFUE. 12 And then, based on the comments that were 13 received from the stakeholders, we were able to 14 determine that that was not really the best thing to 15

do. 16 So we’re here today to wrap this up, and 17 what we’ve done is this time propose the second 18 edition of the applicable industry standard, the IEC 19 62301, and we’re very confident that this is the 20 best thing to do. In fact, with support from 21 another rule on a separate set of products being 22 pool heaters, water heaters, and direct heating 23 equipment, there were comments from industry that 24 the second edition IEC was actually suitable and 25EXECUTIVE COURT REPORTERS, INC. (301) 565-0064 6 offered better improvement. 1 So with that, again, I thank you and turn 2 it back to Doug. 3 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Let’s do 4 introductions around the room. Say your name, and 5 organizational affiliation. I think it’s on. No? 6 Is that better? Let’s start with introductions. 7

Please. 8 **Introductions** 9 MR. STANONIK: Frank Stanonik, Air 10 Conditioning, Heating and Refrigeration Institute. 11 MS. MAUER: Joanna Mauer, Appliance 12 Standards Awareness Project. 13 DR. HEALY: Bill Healy from NIST. 14 MR. TALBOTT: John Talbott, consultant for 15

NIST. 16 MR. ALTMAN: Ari Altman with the General 17 Counsel’s office at DOE. 18 MR. KHAN: Again, Mohammed Khan, 19 Department of Energy, Building Technologies Office. 20 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. So thanks to all of 21 you. Thanks for being here on time so we can get an 22 early start on this. 23

24 **Agenda Review** 25EXECUTIVE COURT REPORTERS, INC. (301) 565-0064 7 MR. BROOKMAN: I think all of you received 1 a packet of information as you came into the room 2 today, and you can see that the agenda is listed on 3 page two. We anticipate this will be a fairly short 4 meeting today. 5 We’re going to start off immediately 6 following this agenda review with a rulemaking 7 review by Mohammed. There’s an opportunity after 8 that for all of you to have brief opening remarks if 9 that’s applicable. We will, following that, talk 10 about the rulemaking steps and history, and then a 11 presentation from John Talbott on proposed 12 amendments. Yet another opportunity for discussion, 13 and description of key interests from interested 14 parties, and then closing and next steps. We 15 anticipate we’ll be done, probably before noon 16 today. So that’s the general plan. 17 So I’d ask for your consideration. You’ve 18 all attended these meetings previously. Please 19 speak one at a time. Please say your name for the 20 record each time you speak. I’m going to be cuing 21 individuals by name as best I can. We also 22 appreciate those individuals who make follow on 23 comments, that’s also useful for the Department. 24 Please keep the focus here. Turn your 25EXECUTIVE COURT REPORTERS, INC. (301) 565-0064 8 cell phones on silent mode. Limit sidebar 1 conversations. And I know everyone will be concise 2 and focused as the day goes on here today. 3 So, questions or comments before we 4 actually launch into the content? Then to Mohammed 5

Khan. 6 **Rulemaking Overview** 7 MR. KHAN: Good morning everyone. Welcome 8 and thank you for participating in the Department’s 9 follow-up meeting on test procedures for residential 10 furnaces and boilers. My name again, is Mohammed 11 Khan and the Department of Energy’s project manager 12 for this rulemaking activity. 13 I’ll be providing an overview of the 14 rulemaking, and John Talbott, who is a consultant to 15 the Department of Energy will present details on the 16 Department’s analyses and interpretation of the 17 applicable industry standard. 18 Today’s meeting serves multiple purposes, 19 mainly, and as always, our goal is to have a two-way 20 discussion. The Department wants to convey its key 21 points and concepts associated with this rulemaking 22 activity, and carefully listen to your thoughts and 23 potential concerns. The Department believes that 24 today’s opportunity for information exchange is very 25EXECUTIVE COURT REPORTERS, INC. (301) 565-0064 9 essential. 1 So first, the Department wants to present 2 its proposal for test procedure amendments and seek 3 your comments. Second, this is a forum for all 4 interested parties to hear and discuss the issues 5 raised by both the Department and by all others. 6 And lastly, we’ll describe the next steps in 7 Rulemaking, including how to submit comments and 8

relevant data. 9 This slide lists the steps that the 10 Department has already taken as well as those that 11 the Department will be performing in order to 12 finalize the test procedure rulemaking. 13

 On October 20, 2010, DOE published, in the 14 Federal Register , it’s test procedure final 15 rule, then, 16

 On September 13, 2011, DOE published a NOPR, 17 which proposed amendments to this 2010 final 18

rule. 19

 Today we’re here to discuss the proposed test 20 procedure provisions and the bases for them. 21 Comments. Comments are key in 22 facilitating any DOE standards or test procedure 23 rulemaking. The Department carefully reviews and 24EXECUTIVE COURT REPORTERS, INC. (301) 565-0064 1 0 considers all comments. DOE will review the 1 transcript of today’s public meeting and any 2 comments received by November 28 th , which is the 3 close of the comment period. 4

Once all comments or relevant data are 5 considered, DOE will then develop its final rule 6 and publish it in the Federal Register as soon as 7 possible. 8 At this juncture, we want to allow anybody 9 who wishes to do so to present any opening remarks. 10 I don’t think we had any requests to do so, but let 11 me just ask again. 12 MR. BROOKMAN: Yes, let’s do that. Any 13 summary remarks here at the outset? None? I see 14 none as I glance around the table. So we’ll 15 proceed. 16 **Regulatory History** 17 MR. KHAN: Okay. Thank you. Let me talk 18 briefly about the pertinent regulatory history and 19 what’s driving this effort. Test procedures for 20 residential furnaces and boilers are codified at 21 10CFR Part 430, subpart B, Appendix N. These test 22 procedures include measures for AFUE, energy use 23 descriptors, operating costs, and as of recent, 24 provisions for determining standby mode and off mode 25EXECUTIVE COURT REPORTERS, INC. (301) 565-0064 1 1 electrical energy consumption. 1 Regarding the applicable energy 2 conservation standard, DOE is promulgating new 3 standards in its direct final rule, which was 4 published on June 27, 2011. The DFR establishes 5 minimum requirements for AFUE, as well as 6 requirements for standby mode and off mode 7 electrical power consumption. 8 This slide explains why DOE is required to 9 consider standards for standby and off mode energy 10 consumption, and which industry standards must also 11 be considered. The Energy Independence Security Act 12 of 2007 directs DOE to incorporate standby mode and 13 off mode energy consumption into its test 14 procedures. 15 EISA 2007 also requires DOE to integrate 16 standby and off mode into the applicable efficiency 17 descriptor unless the Secretary determines that the 18 current test procedure already fully accounts for 19 standby and off mode energy consumption, or if it is 20 not technically feasible to do so. Lastly, EISA 21 says DOE must consider the current versions of the 22 International Electrotechnical Commission Standard 23 62301, entitled “Household Electrical Appliance: 24 Measurement of standby power” and 62087, titled, 25EXECUTIVE COURT REPORTERS, INC. (301) 565-0064 1 2 “Methods of Measurement for the Power Consumption of 1 Audio, Video, and Related Equipment.” 2 For this rulemaking covering residential 3 furnaces and boilers, DOE believes 62301 is 4 applicable only. 5 (Pause because of computer problem.) 6 MR. BROOKMAN: For those of you listening 7 in, we’re having a little bit of technical 8 difficulty that we’re trying to sort through. We’ll 9 be back in motion here shortly. 10 MR. KHAN: Okay. I apologize for that 11 technical difficulty. Now, back in October 2010, 12 DOE satisfied the EISA 2007 requirements relevant to 13 residential furnaces and boilers, by publishing the 14 final rule, amending test procedures for furnaces 15 and boilers. In that rule it was determined that 16 the AFUE metric already accounts for standby mode 17 and off mode consumption of fossil fuel, but 18 measures of electrical standby and off mode energy 19 consumption were, in fact, needed. 20 To fully satisfy the EISA requirement, 21 DOE’s test procedure utilized the IEC standard 62301 22 with some necessary clarifications. A key 23 clarification was that the existing test procedure 24 specifications for ambient temperature and voltage 25EXECUTIVE COURT REPORTERS, INC. (301) 565-0064 1 3 shall apply in lieu of those specified in the IEC 1

standard. 2 The final and also very important point on 3 this slide is that the test procedures reference the 4 first edition of the IEC standard, which was the 5 current version at that time. 6 So not long after DOE published the 7 October final rule for furnaces and boilers, the IEC 8 finalized its second version of the 62301 standard. 9 Because of the timing of the standard, DOE believed 10 that the second edition was relevant and that a full 11 review of it was necessary. After performing a full 12 review, DOE concluded the second edition 62301 13 offers a number of improvements and consequently, 14 DOE is proposing to incorporate the current IEC 15 standard 62301 in its entirety into the list of 16 incorporated references found at 10CFR43.3, while 17 identifying the applicable provisions of 62301 for 18 DOE’s test procedures for residential furnaces and 19 boilers. 20 If there aren't any questions at this 21 time, I’d like to turn it over to John Talbott. 22 MR. BROOKMAN: Questions? 23

24 **Proposed Amendments** 25EXECUTIVE COURT REPORTERS, INC. (301) 565-0064 1 4 MR. TALBOTT: Okay. This is John Talbott, 1 consultant for NIST and we conducted a review of the 2 new second edition IEC standard, and the following 3 is the key points of the review. 4 The two key areas where the improvement 5 was determined was in the accuracy provisions and in 6 the specification of stability. And I’ll discuss 7 those in detail. 8 On the accuracy, there is just a more 9 comprehensive specification requiring accuracy. DOE 10 believes that that revision provides a more 11 realistic accuracy provision for a range of 12 electricity that might be encountered in furnaces 13 and boilers, thereby making the test method 14 appropriate for a variety of situations that a 15 furnace and boiler equipment could present. The new 16 specification is more in line with the commercially 17 available equipment that we surveyed, and it seems 18 that the first edition really, sometimes the 19 specification was not available in commercial 20 equipment, and those issues were discussed with the 21 process of the IEC in various drafts and comments to 22 the drafts. And it was more or less universally 23 agreed that an improvement in the accuracy provision 24

was needed. 25EXECUTIVE COURT REPORTERS, INC. (301) 565-0064 1 5 They actually used a specification that 1 uses the maximum current ratio, and then specifies 2 that the accuracy needed for these measurements of 3 ten watts, would be 95 percent -- two percent at the 4 95 percent level, and then for lower than a tenth of 5 a watt. It specifies a more stricter absolute 6 uncertainty of 0.02 watts at 95 percent of 7 confidence. And this aligns itself with how the 8 instrumentation that’s out there specifies accuracy. 9 On the other issue of stability, and here 10 again, there are more possibilities of an unstable 11 situation with these low wattages. We did not find 12 that in some of the testing that NIST has done, but 13 nonetheless, we can’t rule out that it is not an 14 issue for furnaces and boilers. And on the 15 stability issue, they have described a much better 16 way of determining stability. And in the testing 17 that NIST has done, they were very much informed by 18 the appendices of the IEC’s standard, in that it 19 walks people through how to determine the stability. 20 And we have reviewed some of the 21 literature that comes with the instrumentation 22 that’s available, and it speaks directly to the IEC 23 standard 62301. And many of them just provide 24 software to report out the variables that you need 25EXECUTIVE COURT REPORTERS, INC. (301) 565-0064 1 6 to determine its stability. And so the user is 1 given a choice if that stability test is met, they 2 can just read it directly off the meter. 3 And we feel that the Department is 4 challenged from two areas here. They have to 5 determine is there nothing in here that’s going to 6 result in an unreasonable burden, or an additional 7 burden? And we’re finding that there’s possibly 8 some additional test time would be needed to 9 determine this stability, but it’s not -- once it’s 10 determined, a reasonable lab technician can 11 accomplish it and proceed. 12 So, in summary, the changes incorporated 13 by the second edition would allow for less 14 burdensome methods because it’s more clearly 15 defined. The instrumentation literature speaks to 16 the IEC standard, and the commercial, the available 17 instruments are nothing special. They’re on the 18 order of a couple thousand dollars if you wanted to 19 start from scratch, and maybe three thousand dollars 20 would get you to a unit that includes the software 21 to directly address the IEC standard provisions. 22 Although the furnaces and boilers 23 rulemaking included a lot of discussion that these 24 procedures are a little bit overkill for the 25EXECUTIVE COURT REPORTERS, INC. (301) 565-0064 1 7 furnace-boiler industry, we’ve addressed most of 1 those issues in the final rule. In particular, we 2 allow for the existing test procedure specification 3 of voltage and ambient air temperature to be used in 4 lieu of the IEC standard, which was a burden if you 5 had to use separate room air measurements and 6 separate voltage measurements. So that’s all 7 unified and so you’re left with the new version of 8 the IEC standard with those two exceptions made. 9 We have received supporting comment to the 10 second edition in our various rulemakings, in 11 particular, the heating products. The comments were 12 very supportive and encouraged DOE to go to the 13 second edition. 14 So if there’s any further comments on the 15 technical aspects, I think that’s it. 16 MR. STANONIK: Frank Stanonik, AHRI. Just 17 a couple questions, more for my education, I think. 18 So this specification of the instrument uncertainty, 19 two percent of the 95 percent confidence level for 20 power values greater than one watt. Is this a 21 normal parameter of instrumentation of this sort? 22 In other words, if you go out and buy it, is the 23 company going to say, oh, yeah, this particular 24 instrument is this accurate? Or I think of a scale 25EXECUTIVE COURT REPORTERS, INC. (301) 565-0064 1 8 might have an accuracy of, you know, plus or minus 1 two pounds or something. Is this comparable? 2 MR. TALBOTT: Yeah, I will let Bill Healy 3 of NIST get into that level of detail. 4 DR. HEALY: Bill Healy from NIST. Yes, we 5 believe that it’s something that manufacturers 6 should be able to supply. It’s a very standard -- 7 so it would be something that’s associated with the 8 instrument manufacturers should supply. 9 MR. STANONIK: Okay. So to follow up. 10 Frank Stanonik. So this is really, again, this is a 11 parameter in terms of the quality of the instrument 12 you need, but the actual measurement, what is being 13 proposed now is, let’s say I’m rating a new model, 14 and so I would run -- let’s say I ran three tests to 15 measure the AFUE and in the course of those three 16 samples I would also measure this three times and 17 run the same statistical analysis. That’s the idea, 18 right? For my standby/off mode. 19 MR. TALBOTT: Yes, the standby/off mode 20 measurement of wattage would be a measure of energy 21 consumption subject to the sampling provisions that 22 would be identical to the AFUE. And so this 95 23 percent here, that’s specified here, is part of the 24 instrument’s specification. So your documentation 25EXECUTIVE COURT REPORTERS, INC. (301) 565-0064 1 9 on the instrument would provide that information. 1 The sampling provisions also use the phrase 95 2 percent confident, but that’ a different -- that’s 3 relating to the sample size of the disclosure, of 4 the representation. 5 MR. STANONIK: Okay. Then, just want to 6 confirm from what you looked at, roughly a meter 7 that is capable of doing this, you’re talking about 8

two or three thousand dollars? 9

MR. TALBOTT: Yes. 10 MR. BROOKMAN: Additional comments? Or 11 questions related to this presentation? Okay. I 12 see nothing additional. 13 **Additional Remarks** 14 As reflected in the agenda, there is an 15 opportunity here, following the presentation for any 16 additional remarks. Any other issues that anybody 17 wishes to raise? Frank. 18 MR. STANONIK: Frank Stanonik, AHRI. The 19 reason for my questions, and we haven’t had a lot of 20 comments up to date, up to this point on this 21 particular rulemaking, but I did actually get a 22 comment last week expressing some concern about the 23 need for this, quote/unquote, “specialized 24 instrument” that might cost $3000 or whatever, to 25EXECUTIVE COURT REPORTERS, INC. (301) 565-0064 2 0 measure energy consumptions that are going to be -- 1 potentially they’re going to be in the tens of 2 watts. But anyhow, that’s only one comment, and if 3 it turns out we have more members that it’s a 4 concern, we’ll let you know. But I guess I’ll bring 5 it to your attention now. 6 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Thank you. 7 MR. KHAN: Doug. 8 MR. BROOKMAN: Mohammed, comment? 9 MR. KHAN: Mohammed Khan, DOE. I 10 appreciate those thoughts, Frank. I do believe that 11 we also looked at the availability of such 12 instrumentation and I’ll let Bill comment on it as 13 well, but I think what we found was that that level 14 of accuracy or ability within this instrumentation 15 is pretty much commonplace, particularly at that 16 price range, anyway. 17 MR. BROOKMAN: Bill. 18 DR. HEALY: Bill Healy from NIST. Just 19 agree with Mohammed. Yes, I believe these are 20 commercially available, readily available pieces of 21 equipment. 22 MR. STANONIK: Frank Stanonik, AHRI. A 23 related question, and I apologize because I only pay 24 attention to what I care about, I guess, but has a 25EXECUTIVE COURT REPORTERS, INC. (301) 565-0064 2 1 similar proposal been put forth for the -- related 1 to what I call the “white good” products, the 2 dishwashers, clothes washers, products of that 3

nature that also would have a measurement of 4 standby/off mode? Because I know that AHAM was also 5 concerned about the original test procedure. 6 MR. KHAN: Mohammed Khan, DOE. It’s my 7 understanding that the other products that are 8 considered covered products that the Department must 9 regulate are also going to be looking at the second 10 edition of IEC, which has that same requirement, and 11 I’m not sure of the status of those particular 12 rulemakings or whether or not they’ve actually 13 adopted them or referenced them as of yet, but my 14 understanding, again, is that they are looking at 15 the second edition. 16 MR. BROOKMAN: So additional questions and 17 comments? Or perhaps final and closing remarks? I 18 see none additional. John Talbott, please. 19

MR. TALBOTT: John Talbott. I have looked 20

across some of the DOE other rules on the other 21 products, and it’s -- the old -- some products have 22 adopted parts of the IEC’s 62301 standard and some 23 have adopted the entire standard, and so there are 24 some differences across products, because there’s 25EXECUTIVE COURT REPORTERS, INC. (301) 565-0064 2 2 some differences within those products that they 1 choose not to go with some of the provisions. So 2 there’s a mix in the DOE suite of products. And so 3 for the time being, the first edition is called out 4 in a reference, the list of references, and will 5 remain there until the last product does not use it. 6 Or maybe it’ll even stay then. So this is an 7 additional reference added, the second edition. The 8 first edition will remain, and then this rulemaking 9 is about having it apply to Appendix N, furnaces and 10 boilers, and taking Appendix N out of the first 11 edition reference. 12 So, a lot of products, and there’s a lot 13 of differences, but generally they’re all going 14 towards this second edition referencing. 15 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. So now we’re going 16 to have closing remarks by Mohammed Khan. 17 **Closing Remarks** 18 MR. KHAN: Okay. Again, as I said at the 19 outset of the meeting, your comments, thoughts, are 20 very important and valuable to the Department of 21 Energy in facilitating final rule development of our 22 standards and test procedures. 23 So this slide here just summarizes the 24 ways and mechanisms for you to submit your comments 25EXECUTIVE COURT REPORTERS, INC. (301) 565-0064 2 3 and any data that you might actually have that 1 supports it as well. And then also, just to keep 2 things clear and facilitate us handling the comments 3 as they come in, please reference the information 4 there regarding the docket, the RIN number, and of 5 course the title, and as we said also, we’ll go 6 through the transcript, consider all of your 7 comments on the final rule and then process it and 8 publish the final rule as soon as we can. 9 And again, I thank you for your 10 participation today. 11 MR. BROOKMAN: Thanks to all of you. 12 (Whereupon, at 9:44 a.m., the meeting in 13 the above captioned matter was adjourned.) 14

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REPORTER'S CERTIFICATEEXECUTIVE COURT REPORTERS, INC. (301) 565-0064 2 4 This is to certify that the attached proceedings before:

U.S. DEPARTMENT OF ENERGY In the Matter of:

**TEST PROCEDURES FOR FURNACES AND BOILER MEETING (INCORPORATED BY REFERENCE IEC)** 

Were held as herein appe ars and that this is the original transcript ther eof for the file of the Department, Commiss ion, Board, Admi nistrative Law Judge or the Agency. Further, I am neither co unsel for or related to any party to the ab ove proceedings.



### Wendy Greene Official Reporter Dated: October 6, 2011