Transcript of the Testimony of 

Date: May 6, 2015

Case: ASRAC Fans and Blowers Working Group Meeting

Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc.

Phone: 202-347-3700

Fax: 202-737-3638

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1 U.S. DEPARTMENT OF ENERGY PUBLIC MEETING 

2 ASRAC FANS AND BLOWERS WORKING GROUP MEETING 

3

4

5 U.S. Department of Energy 

6 Forrestal Building, Room 6E-066 

7 1000 Independence Avenue, SW 

8 Washington, DC 20585 

9

10 9:00 a.m. 

11 Wednesday, May 6, 2015 

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1 Appearances for Department of Energy Meeting 

2

3 John Cymbalsky, DOE 

4 Ashley Armstrong, DOE 

5 Wade Boswell, DOE 

6 Stephen Fine, DOE 

7 Rob Boteler, Nidec Motor Corporation 

8 Mark Bublitz, The New York Blower Company 

9 Larry Burdick, SPX Cooling Technologies 

10 Tom Catania, Erb Institute 

11 E. Duane Daddis, United Technologies 

12 Ron Cosby, Trane 

13 Steve Dikeman, AcoustiFLO 

14 Daniel E. Delaney, Regal Beloit America, Inc. 

15 Mark W. Fly, Aaon Heating & Cooling Products 

16 Dan Hartlein, Twin City Fan Companies, Ltd. 

17 Armin Hauer, ebm-papst, Inc. 

18 Nicholas Howe, Carnes 

19 David A. Johnson, Berner International Corporation 

20 Joanna Mauer, Appliance Standards Awareness Project 

21 (ASAP) 

22 Trinity Persful, Twin City Fan Companies, Ltd. 
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1 Laura G. Petrillo-Groh, Air-Conditioning, Heating, & 

2 Refrigeration Institute (AHRI) 

3 Steven J. Rosenstock, Edison Electric Institute 

4 Aniruddh Roy, Goodman Manufacturing 

5 Geoff Sheard, AGS Consulting, LLC 

6 William Smiley, Smiley Engineering LLC 

7 Wade Smith, Air Movement and Control Association,

8 International 

9 Gregory P. Wagner, Morrison Products, Inc. 

10 Meg Waltner, Natural Resources Defense Council (NRDC) 

11 Robert J. Whitwell, United Technologies 

12 Chris Wiseman, Nidec 

13 Michael L. Wolf, Greenheck 

14 Gary Fernstrom, CA IOU's 

15 Sam Jasinski, Navigant 

16 Donald A. McNeil, Buffalo Air Handling Company 

17 Stephen R. Wiggins, Newcomb & Boyd 

18 Sanaee Iyama, Lawrence Berkeley National Laboratory 

19

20

21

22 
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1 P R O C E E D I N G S 

2 (9:13 a.m.) 

3 MS. ARMSTRONG: All right. So hi, my name is 

4 Ashley Armstrong. I'm the DOE rep on the Fans and 

5 Blowers Working Group. I'd like to welcome all you 

6 guys for our first kickoff meeting, to hopefully 

7 negotiate some aspects of the definition, test 

8 procedures, and ultimately the proposed standard 

9 levels for commercial industrial fans and blowers. 

10 So we look forward to a fruitful 

11 discussion, and a lot of hard work over the next 

12 three months. So I'm going to turn it over to Wade. 

13 Do you want to go ahead and introduce yourself, and 

14 at least we need to go around the room and all 

15 introduce ourselves. 

16 MR. BOSWELL: So my name is Wade Boswell, 

17 and I'm one of the facilitators today. I think in 

18 the letter that was sent to you when you were invited 

19 to join the committee, DOE mentioned that we're using 

20 facilitators from DOE's Office of Hearings and 

21 Appeals. So I'm part of that office, and we'll 

22 introduce ourselves a bit more once we get into the 
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1 slides and talk about the facilitation process. 

2 But for the time being, why don't we just 

3 go ahead and have everyone introduce themselves? One 

4 of the challenges that we have is this is probably 

5 the -- one of the largest, if not the largest working 

6 group we've had. So this table is not really 

7 designed for the size of this group. 

8 We have 25 committee members, which is the 

9 maximum that we're allowed to have. So we actually 

10 have some of our formal committee members on the side 

11 table, where there would be normally be consultants. 

12 So that's going to make our dynamics a 

13 little bit more interesting, to make sure that we're 

14 really including everyone in the discussion. 

15 MALE PARTICIPANT: Can you use your 

16 microphone? 

17 MR. BOSWELL: Oh, okay. Is this better? 

18 Maybe. Is this better? No. Is this okay? 

19 FEMALE PARTICIPANT: Yes. 

20 MR. BOSWELL: Okay. So just to get 

21 started, we're going to go around and introduce 

22 ourselves. Some of our formal committee members are 
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1 actually at a side table as opposed to at the main 

2 table. 

3 So that's going to be one of the things 

4 that will make our kind of discussions a bit more 

5 challenging over the next couple of days, and we'll 

6 talk, introduce ourselves a bit more once we get into 

7 the facilitation process. Why don't we start here? 

8 MR. SHEARD: Does that work? 

9 MS. ARMSTRONG: Yep. 

10 MR. SHEARD: Very good. My name's Geoff 

11 Sheard. I work for a company called AGS Consulting, 

12 focusing on the design of higher efficiency fans, 

13 which as a consequence of this regulatory 

14 environment, there is a certain interest in the 

15 marketplace. I also by chance happen to be the 

16 chairman of the AMCA Board of Directors just at the 

17 moment. So that's my second reason for being here. 

18 MS. PETRILLLO-GROH: Good morning. I'm 

19 Laura Petrillo-Groh. I'm with the Air Conditioning, 

20 Heating and Refrigeration Institute. 

21 MR. FERNSTROM: I'm Gary Fernstrom, 

22 representing the California Investor-Owned Utilities, 
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1 which are Pacific Gas and Electric Company, Southern 

2 California Edison Company, San Diego Gas and Electric 

3 Company, and the Southern California Gas Company. 

4 MR. SMILEY: My name is Bill Smiley, and 

5 I'm here representing Ingersoll-Rand, mainly Trane 

6 Company, which is part of Ingersoll-Rand. But there 

7 are several other companies within Ingersoll that are 

8 interested in the fan and blowers as well. Thank 

9 you. 

10 MR. SMITH: Hi. My name's Wade Smith. 

11 I'm with AMCA International, involved in their public 

12 policy. 

13 MR. DIKEMAN: AcoustiFLO, LLC, out of 

14 Boulder, Colorado. 

15 MS. WALTNER: Meg Waltner at the Natural 

16 Resources Defense Council. 

17 MR. WIGGINS: Steve Wiggins with an MBP 

18 design firm out of Atlanta called Newcomb & Boyd. 

19 MR. WOLF: Good morning, I'm Mike Wolf 

20 with Greenheck. We manufacture all sorts of 

21 ventilation equipment from bathroom fans to large 

22 industrial blowers. I'm also a member of the AMCA 
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1 Product Deficiency Task Force, which has been working 

2 on, you know, helping with this rulemaking now for a 

3 couple of years. So glad to be here. 

4 MS. MAUER: Joanna Mauer with the 

5 Appliance Standards Awareness Project. 

6 MR. ROY: Aniruddh Roy with Goodman. We 

7 manufacture several products that are currently 

8 regulated by DOE at the OEM level. 

9 MR. BUBLITZ: Mark Bublitz with the New 

10 York Blower Company. 

11 MR. BURDICK: Larry Burdick, SPX Cooling 

12 Technologies. We manufacture cooling towers and 

13 other types of cooling products. 

14 MR. DADDIS: Duane Daddis with United 

15 Technologies Carrier Corporation. 

16 MR. HARTLEIN: I'm Dan Hartlein with Twin 

17 City Fan Companies, Limited, and as well, I'm a 

18 member of the AMCA Board of Directors with Geoff. 

19 MR. McNEIL: Don McNeil, Buffalo Air 

20 Handling. 

21 MR. JASINKSI: Sam Jasinski, Navigant 

22 Consulting, supporting DOE. 
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1 MS. KOHL: Betsy Kohl, DOE General 

2 Counsel's Office. 

3 MS. ARMSTRONG: Ashley Armstrong, DOE. 

4 MS. IYAMA: Sanaee Iyama, The Lawrence 

5 Berkeley National Lab. 

6 MR. HAUER: Armin Hauer, ebmpabst. We do 

7 electric fans and motors, so all our fans are 

8 motorized, and we are supplying typically into the 

9 market where the fans are embedded in other 

10 equipment. 

11 MR. FLY: Mark Fly with AAON. AAON builds 

12 military equipment. I'm also chair of the Unitary 

13 Large Committee for AHRI and a director at large on 

14 the ASHRAE Board of Directors. 

15 MR. HOWE: Nick Howe, Carnes Company, a 

16 small manufacturer from Wisconsin. 

17 MR. JOHNSON: David Johnson with Berner 

18 International, a small manufacturer utilizing fan 

19 equipment. 

20 MR. BOSWELL: And I think we had one 

21 person join us at the table. If you could introduce 

22 yourself please? 
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1 MR. WAGNER: Greg Wagner, Morrison 

2 Products, manufacturer of fans and blowers. 

3 MR. BOSWELL: And if we could ask the 

4 people in the kind of public gallery to introduce 

5 themselves please? 

6 MR. BOTELER: Rob Boteler with Nidec Motor 

7 Corporation and chairman of the National Electrical 

8 Manufacturers Association Energy Committee. 

9 MR. DELANEY: Dan Delaney, Regal Beloit, 

10 chairman of the NEMA WHATMG Section. 

11 MR. WISEMAN: Chris Wiseman, Nidec U.S. 

12 Motors, Vice President of Marketing. 

13 MR. CATANIA: Tom Catania. I'm a 

14 consultant to AMCA and an executive in residence at 

15 the University of Michigan. 

16 MR. COSBY: Ron Cosby, Ingersoll-Rand 

17 North America MIA, Commercial HVAC Technology Leader. 

18 MR. PERSFUL: Trinity Persful, 

19 representing Clarage Fan Company out of Tennessee. 

20 MS. FREYMUTH: Janet Freymuth, DOE's 

21 Office of Hearings and Appeals. 

22 MR. WHITWELL: Bob Whitwell, United 
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1 Technologies Carrier Corporation. 

2 MR. MORRISON: Frank Morrison, Baltimore 

3 Air Coil Company, also the alternate delegate for the 

4 Cooling Technology Institute, along with Larry 

5 Burdick, who's the primary delegate. 

6 MR. LINDALL: I'm Paul Lindall from SPX 

7 Cooling Technologies. 

8 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Steve Rosenstock, Edison 

9 Electric Institute. Also a member of ASHRAE 90.1. 

10 MR. BOSWELL: Thank you. 

11 (Off mic comments.) 

12 MS. ARMSTRONG: Let's figure out how to 

13 change these slides. 

14 (Off mic comments.) 

15 MR. FERNSTROM: Ashley, this is Gary. I 

16 don't think the gain is turned up for the lavalier 

17 mic or this mic at the podium. 

18 MS. ARMSTRONG: All right. I'll tell the 

19 audio people. Thanks. Okay. Just to talk a little 

20 bit about how we all got here. As I'm sure you guys 

21 are aware, but DOE originally formed the Appliance 

22 Standards Advisory Committee back in 2012. It's 
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1 basically just that. It's an advisory committee that 

2 reports to DOE. 

3 Its intention is to focus on appliance 

4 standards rulemaking and issues, and one of the tasks 

5 that originated within ASRAC is to form these working 

6 groups where it makes sense, to charter and negotiate 

7 ultimately different types of issues that DOE is 

8 dealing with in a rulemaking. 

9 The next slide. So as needed, obviously 

10 ASRAC votes to form working groups. We've formed, I 

11 think, seven or eight up to this point, and so far 

12 all have been successful at negotiating a term sheet. 

13 There's two others along with this one 

14 that are just now starting and kicking off. But 

15 we've had great success with the working groups in 

16 coming to negotiated conclusions for some of the 

17 stickier issues that you see in the Department and 

18 rulemaking activities. 

19 So just some high level things. ASRAC 

20 tasked this working group specifically with 

21 negotiating aspects of the definitions, certain 

22 aspects of the test procedures and ultimately propose 
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1 standard levels for commercial fans and blowers. So 

2 we'll get started talking about that probably later 

3 today. 

4 DOE may ask ASRAC to withdraw a task at 

5 any time, so ASRAC may ask this committee to stop 

6 negotiating if negotiations stall for some reason. 

7 In the event a consensus recommendation is not 

8 reached for a particular task within the time frame 

9 that has been allotted, ASRAC will report back to DOE 

10 and DOE may proceed with its own rulemaking at that 

11 time. 

12 So just so you know what the purpose of 

13 this couple day meeting is, at least today, we're 

14 going to go over the negotiation process. Wade's 

15 going to give you an overview of what that looks 

16 like, establishment of ground rules. So that's kind 

17 of the rules for which the committee will operate by, 

18 what does consensus mean, what are we agreeing to, 

19 what is good faith, those types of things. 

20 We'll establish the schedule and meetings 

21 for the next three months so you know when we would 

22 like to see your faces in D.C. And then we will 
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1 identify some issues for future meetings, as well as 

2 some analysis issues that we may need to consider or 

3 we may need to prepare in the background, for to help 

4 with the discussions moving forward. 

5 Today, we plan to do some high level 

6 overviews if we get to it, probably tomorrow 

7 actually, of the definitions, where I expect there 

8 will be quite a bit of discussion, as well as the 

9 metric and then potentially from there we'll go into 

10 efficiency levels and other things if we get to it. 

11 So with that, I'm going to turn it over to 

12 you to take us through the rest of it. 

13 MR. BOSWELL: So we have an attorney from 

14 DOE's Office of General Law coming at 9:30 to talk 

15 about ethics issues and things of that sort. That 

16 normally takes five minutes or thereabouts. So Wayne 

17 Gordon I'm expecting at right about 9:30. 

18 So before we kind of get into more formal 

19 presentations on negotiation and setting ground 

20 rules, I realized that when we went around the room, 

21 I should have mentioned two other things at least. 

22 One, Ashley is a member of ASRAC, which 
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1 this working group was chartered by. There are two 

2 other ASRAC members that are on the Committee, who 

3 are not here today. One is Deborah Miller, who is 

4 ill and is not expecting to be here today or 

5 tomorrow. The other is Diane Jakobs, who I 

6 understand is participating via the web with an open 

7 mic. 

8 So Diane, I don't know if your mic is 

9 open, if you want to go ahead and introduce yourself, 

10 since you didn't have the opportunity to when we went 

11 around the room. 

12 MS. JAKOBS: Yes. This is Diane Jakobs, 

13 and I work for Rheem Manufacturing, and as you mentioned, 

14 I'm a member of the ASRAC Committee. 

15 MR. BOSWELL: Great, thank you. 

16 MS. JAKOBS: Thank you. 

17 MR. BOSWELL: So just some housekeeping 

18 things while we're waiting for Wayne to get here. I 

19 think you all know that this is a public meeting. We 

20 have people that are non-committee that are seated at 

21 the back. 

22 We also have people that can participate, 
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1 either committee members are public by the web. If a 

2 committee members is participating by the web, it's 

3 our hope that we can keep them on an open mic like 

4 Diane is, so that they can be a full participant in 

5 the discussions. 

6 And when we get into talking about the 

7 ground rules, we'll talk about the fact that for the 

8 purposes of these working groups, traditionally 

9 participation, although ideally is in person in the 

10 room, that members can also participate fully via the 

11 GoTo web or webinar. I'm not sure what technology 

12 we're using. 

13 Other things. One of the strategies that 

14 we try to use is, you know, part of this process is 

15 to make sure that everyone in the committee has a 

16 chance to be fully heard on their thoughts and 

17 concerns in the rulemaking process. Our role as 

18 facilitators, we'll talk about more in a few minutes, 

19 is to, you know, make sure people have that 

20 opportunity. 

21 What we normally do is we ask people that 

22 are on the committee when they want to speak to just 
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1 turn up their tent cards like this. That lets us 

2 know that people want to speak. The issue, of 

3 course, is I'm not sure I'm going to be able to see 

4 the tent cards over there. So you might need to 

5 signal a bit more, you know, blatantly if you're 

6 there. 

7 It's our intent also to let people speak 

8 in the order that we've seen their tent cards go up. 

9 With a group this size, people may be signaling 

10 simultaneously. So we will deal with that. When 

11 you're through speaking, we ask that you put your 

12 tent card down, so that we know that you've finished 

13 articulating your concern. 

14 The other thing, since this is a 

15 transcript is being made of today's proceeding, and 

16 that will also be posted on the DOE website, we ask 

17 that when people speak, they state their name and 

18 their organization, so that that appears clearly on 

19 the transcript as well. So any preliminary questions 

20 about that, because I see that Wayne has arrived from 

21 GC. So I'm going to invite him in. 

22 MR. GORDON: Good morning. My name is 
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1 Wayne Gordon and I work in the General Law Division 

2 of the General Counsel's office. I work for the 

3 designated agency ethics official for the Department, 

4 and I am the legal advisor for the parent committee 

5 to this working group. 

6 The parent committee is called the 

7 Appliance Standards Rulemaking Advisory Committee. 

8 That is a parent committee that has been put together 

9 in conjunction with both the Federal Advisory 

10 Committee Act and the Administrative Procedures Act. 

11 It's a new type of advisory committee that we've been 

12 using for a couple of years now, and it consists of a 

13 parent committee, which has both special government 

14 employees and representative employees on it. 

15 That parent committee is going to be 

16 reviewing all of the work from the various working 

17 groups for the various types of appliances that 

18 rulemaking is being devised for. In terms of the 

19 legal advice that I give to people, for the parent 

20 committee, my legal advice is really oriented towards 

21 special government employees, because they are 

22 subject to all the regular conflict of interest 
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1 provisions under statutory rules. 

2 In particular, 18 U.S.C. 208, which says 

3 that if you're a special government employee or 

4 you're a federal employee, you can't participate in 

5 any particular matter that would have an effect on 

6 your personal financial interest, or on financial 

7 interests that are attributable to you. 

8 In the context of giving advice to the 

9 special government employees, I'm also cognizant of 

10 the fact that we have representatives on that parent 

11 committee, and from my understanding of the working 

12 group here, all of you are representing some type of 

13 business interest, and in that context, the regular 

14 conflict of interest rules that are applicable to 

15 federal employees are not applicable to you. 

16 So to the extent that you're acting on 

17 things or participating or coming up with suggestions 

18 for particular rules that would have an effect on 

19 your home organization's or groups of organizations 

20 that are going to be affected by this rulemaking, 

21 that's permitted under conflict of interest rules. 

22 We actually are -- we run these 
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1 representatives groups to get that kind of input, so 

2 that we have a good product that goes to the actual 

3 parent committee, once you've come up with your 

4 negotiations and you've come up with some sort of a 

5 plan for your recommendations back to the parent 

6 committee. 

7 Now the rulemaking advisory committee is 

8 going to vote on your recommendations. So in the 

9 context of looking at conflicts of interest, we want 

10 to make sure that we get a full and complete 

11 representational type of communication going. So 

12 it's not -- it's not a problem from a representative 

13 perspective, for you to be actually participating 

14 fully, even if it could affect your home institution. 

15 As opposed to it, the parent committee 

16 level, that's where if there are specific people that 

17 would be affected by the recommendations, we excuse 

18 them and we get them out of those particular 

19 discussions or votes. So my advice is always 

20 oriented towards John Cymbalsky, who is the 

21 designated federal officer for the parent committee. 

22 But if there are things that come up in 
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1 the context of the rulemaking that you're going to be 

2 working on in your working group today, that give you 

3 pause or make you think that something is improper, I 

4 ask you to call that to Wade's attention first, as 

5 the person who's facilitating this group, and then if 

6 Wade thinks it's necessary, you would call John and 

7 John would contact me, to see if there's any 

8 potential conflict of interest rule that needs to be 

9 resolved or mitigated. 

10 But I just wanted to -- I do this for all 

11 of the working groups, just to brief you on what the 

12 process is, and just to give you an awareness that 

13 even though you're participating as representatives, 

14 there is some oversight from regular federal 

15 employees and special government employees, and that 

16 they have conflict of interest rules that apply to 

17 them. Anything else you wanted me to cover John? 

18 Okay, thanks. Thanks Wade. 

19 MR. BOSWELL: Okay, and kind of implicit, 

20 Wayne was just saying one of the things that we have 

21 been told, sitting as the facilitators, is to the 

22 extent that any questions that come up really relate 
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1 to legal issues or conflicts of interest, that we're 

2 not permitted to answer those, that they really need 

3 to go, if they're internal to the organizations, to 

4 your legal advisors or if it's a DOE issue, through 

5 the DOE's Office of General Counsel. 

6 To the extent, as we're going on, as 

7 people mentioned, the temperature in the room is not 

8 the greatest. Some of that's not controlled by DOE. 

9 GSA often controls when the AC actually comes on in 

10 this building. If people need a break at any point, 

11 and we're not calling one here, just signal in some 

12 way and we'll try and make sure that gets 

13 accommodated. 

14 Just so that you're also aware, we try to 

15 be careful about doing this. We were once doing an 

16 internal mediation when we had an earthquake, and 

17 everybody panicked and didn't know what to do. So if 

18 there's an emergency, there are emergency exits at 

19 the end of each of the hallways here. There are 

20 stairwells, you know. Us DOE employees will try to 

21 make sure that everyone gets out if we're in that 

22 situation. Hopefully, that will not happen. 
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1 When we take breaks or lunch, if you go to 

2 the ground level of this building, if you haven't 

3 discovered it, there is a Dunkin Donuts and a Subway 

4 off to the left, and if you go to the right, you'll 

5 see an escalator past the auditorium, and that goes 

6 up to a cafeteria. There's also lots of food 

7 opportunities outside of the building as well. 

8 MALE PARTICIPANT: Well, right across the 

9 street there's the cafeteria. 

10 MR. BOSWELL: Okay. So as I mentioned 

11 earlier, and unfortunately we don't have tent cards 

12 yet, but my name is Wade Boswell. I'm with the DOE's 

13 Office of Hearings and Appeals, and we are going to 

14 be facilitating this particular rulemaking. One of 

15 the reasons that we're asked from the Office of 

16 Hearings and Appeals to facilitate is although we are 

17 part of DOE, we're actually part of DOE that's 

18 somewhat removed from the rest of DOE. Primarily 

19 we're adjudicators, and that, you know, in the cases 

20 that we hear at DOE is often one of the parties that 

21 is, you know, before us, and we're charged with being 

22 neutral and impartial in that context. 
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1 And so being an impartial negotiator of 

2 rulemakings, it's kind of an extension of the 

3 partiality that we have in either adjudicating. We 

4 also do some mediations. As I said earlier, my 

5 name's Wade Boswell. My own background is prior to 

6 rejoining the government a few years ago, I had been 

7 a private practice mediator. I have trained 

8 mediators, both informally and through a law school 

9 for about nine years. 

10 Prior to that, I worked in New York. I 

11 was with major law firms as both an associate and a 

12 partner. I was also with the German company Siemens, 

13 and I was general counsel of one of their 

14 international groups for about nine years. So you 

15 know, the technology side from my years at Siemens, 

16 is not necessarily this particular technology. 

17 While I was at Siemens, I was also on the 

18 board of our trade association. So you know, I have 

19 some understanding of the perspective of trade 

20 associations. Since I've been with DOE, I have been 

21 part of our mediation team for the last several 

22 years, and one of our administrative judges at DOE. 
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1 And co-facilitating with me will be Stephen Fine. 

2 Steve, do you want to introduce yourself? 

3 MR. FINE: Yeah. I am Steve Fine, and 

4 I've been an administrative judge with the Department 

5 of Energy's Office of Hearings and Appeals for -- 

6 since 1988 or however long that's been, and I'm also 

7 a trained mediator, and I'm here to assist Wade in 

8 facilitating this matter. Thanks. 

9 MR. BOSWELL: And one kind of group or 

10 division within the Office of Hearings and Appeals is 

11 DOE's Office of Conflict Prevention Resolution, and 

12 Pam is part of that group. 

13 MS. PONTILLO: Good morning, my name is 

14 Pam Pontillo, and I'm with the Office of Conflict 

15 Prevention Resolution. I manage the headquarters 

16 mediation program. Also, I mediate here at DOE, as 

17 well as for other federal agencies, and I've worked 

18 at various offices within Department of Energy for 

19 several different -- for several years. Thank you. 

20 MR. BOSWELL: So and we're going to get to 

21 scheduling of meetings later on today. One of the 

22 reasons that you see three of us here is there won't 
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1 always be three of us here. But we want to make sure 

2 that to the extent that the committee schedule 

3 conflicts with commitments that we have, that there's 

4 some continuity amongst the facilitators, and so that 

5 process goes smoothly, okay. Any questions before we 

6 start moving into negotiated rulemaking? 

7 (No response.) 

8 MR. BOSWELL: Okay. So I'm not going to 

9 go through all of these slides in detail. I think 

10 people, at least on the Committee, have copies of the 

11 slides at this point. 

12 If we skip over something and you have a 

13 question, please feel free to ask for it. Also if there 

14 are questions that you don't want to raise as part of 

15 the committee meeting, feel free to approach us on a 

16 break or outside of today's meeting as well. 

17 But as Ashley was saying, you know, this 

18 working group has been formed as a part of ASRAC, 

19 which is a federal advisory committee, and the 

20 purpose of having this working group is to really 

21 make a recommendation on a roll. So with 

22 administrative rulemaking and the hope is that by 
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1 convening a group of impacted stakeholders and using 

2 a consensus-based process, that what DOE will come up 

3 with is a better rule, by taking into account the 

4 various perspectives, also often the impact that 

5 stakeholders have information and data that's not 

6 really available to DOE. 

7 This is a process where information can 

8 come forward to help DOE, you know, be more informed 

9 about information. Having said that, the other thing 

10 that I also want to mention is this is a public 

11 process, so to the extent that you're sharing 

12 information, keep in mind that whatever information 

13 that you might be sharing is basically becoming 

14 public information through -- by discussing that 

15 information or by providing data. 

16 You know, occasionally people have tried 

17 to retract confidential data after it's been 

18 disclosed, and that's when we get Wayne Gordon and 

19 his colleagues involved, and normally that's not 

20 likely to happen once information's disclosed as part 

21 of this process. You know, to the extent -- 

22 MS. ARMSTRONG: Can I make one caveat? 
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1 MR. BOSWELL: Go ahead. 

2 MS. ARMSTRONG: If there is data, if we do 

3 get into the analysis portion and there is data for 

4 which you want to share in a confidential manner, we 

5 do have a way of doing that, so that we can then 

6 include it in the analysis and go through that. So 

7 if there is additional data or performance data that 

8 you don't want to share formally on the record or 

9 cost data, we can talk about that when we get to it. 

10 MR. BOSWELL: There again, the caveat 

11 there would be to make sure that before going into that 

12 data, that there's been the discussion to make sure 

13 that you're going to maintain the confidentiality 

14 that you would want around that data. As -- 

15 MALE PARTICIPANT: Did everyone hear that? 

16 I just want to make sure of that, because that's really 

17 important. If you're going mention anything that's 

18 proprietary (off mic). 

19 MS. ARMSTRONG: That's okay. I'll just 

20 reiterate what he said. He said if anybody wants to 

21 share confidential data, must make sure you come and 

22 talk to me first before you disclose it here. We 
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1 have ways to protect that, so thanks. 

2 MR. BOSWELL: Okay. As Ashley mentioned 

3 earlier, DOE has convened a number of these working 

4 groups previously, and all of them to date, as I 

5 understand it, have been successful in reaching a 

6 consensus and making a recommendation. As I think 

7 you also are aware, that the actual committee that 

8 would be making the recommendation is ASRAC. 

9 So that this kind of working group would 

10 be reporting their recommendation to ASRAC, and it's 

11 ASRAC that would then make a decision in terms of 

12 proposing that. So with the negotiated rulemaking, 

13 this augments but doesn't replace the normal agency 

14 rulemaking process. This is all by statute. The 

15 rule must still go through normal agency and 

16 administrative review. 

17 FEMALE PARTICIPANT: I'm just trying to 

18 get a power strip in there, so people can have some 

19 power for their computers. 

20 MR. BOSWELL: So and if an agreement is 

21 not reached by the working group, then the agency has 

22 the right to and will proceed to make its own rule. 
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1 (Pause.) 

2 MR. FERNSTROM: This is Gary for the 

3 California IOUs. I'd just like to make the 

4 observation for the group that access to power in 

5 this working group is pretty much underground to 

6 under table. 

7 MR. BOSWELL: One of the -- 

8 (Off mic comment.) 

9 MR. BOSWELL: One of the things that I 

10 should have asked in the beginning, of the people on the 

11 Committee, how many of you have sat on other working 

12 groups for DOE or perhaps other agencies? 

13 (Show of thumbs.) 

14 MR. BOSWELL: Probably less than a quarter 

15 of the folks have participated in other proceedings. 

16 So what we have behind me is simply the statutory 

17 framework that explains how you all got into the 

18 room, and the various statutes that affect what it is 

19 that we can do and the -- any recommendations that 

20 would go forward. 

21 You know, this is being convened as a 

22 negotiated rulemaking, and the Negotiated Rulemaking 
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1 Act requires that there be a FACA committee that's 

2 involved, and this is working group of ASRAC, which 

3 is a FACA. You know, to the extent that there's a 

4 recommendation through FACA, this gets published, and 

5 I think we have some slides on the process. 

6 So under the Negotiated Rulemaking Act, it 

7 defines the facilitator as a person who impartially 

8 aids in the discussions and negotiations among 

9 members of the negotiated rulemaking committee, to 

10 develop a proposed rule. One of the things that I 

11 just want to make sure that you're aware of, as 

12 facilitators, any options or suggestions really come 

13 from the committee members. 

14 We're really prohibited from making 

15 recommendations ourselves. We're basically trying to 

16 make sure that, you know, we keep the discussion 

17 moving amongst the committee members, that when 

18 there's impasse, that we can help define what that 

19 impasse is and to help people move towards consensus 

20 realization, that they won't have to reach consensus. 

21 The other thing that I just want to 

22 highlight, and this comes up on several other slides, 
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1 you know, we have the word here about our role is to 

2 be impartial. You know, I do want to acknowledge, as 

3 I have implicitly, several things today. We're 

4 actually part of the Department of Energy in the 

5 Office of Hearings and Appeals. 

6 Notwithstanding the fact that we're part 

7 of DOE, the hope and belief is that we will be 

8 impartial, and that we'll be perceived that way. So 

9 if at any point anyone has any concerns about that 

10 piece, feel free to address those concerns directly, 

11 because you know, our goal is to be impartial. You 

12 also see, going into ground rules, that the 

13 facilitator serve at the discretion of the working 

14 group itself. 

15 So if you have concerns about that, you 

16 always have the right to fire us, okay. But 

17 hopefully we can resolve those concerns without you 

18 feeling the need to fire us. 

19 (Off mic comments.) 

20 MR. BOSWELL: Actually, it does. You 

21 might want to think about that when we define 

22 consensus, how easily you want to be able to fire us, 
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1 okay. 

2 MR. FINE: And in the interest of job 

3 security, just think, who you might get instead of 

4 us. 

5 (Off mic comments.) 

6 MR. BOSWELL: That sounds evaluative 

7 enough. So again, this is really just talking about 

8 under the negotiated rulemaking, what our role is. 

9 We're again chairing the meetings, although DOE, 

10 since it's their regulation, will often really be 

11 leading most of the discussions. 

12 We're also -- we have slides on this later 

13 -- being available to work with people outside of the 

14 meetings as well, to move things forward. You know, 

15 the transcripts from this -- from these meetings will 

16 be posted, as well as any other records that come out 

17 of this. I believe DOE's office has a particular web 

18 page for this particular rulemaking. 

19 Again, our role is to help to guide the 

20 discussions. We can also kind of serve as a coach, a 

21 moderator. Our main point is to help clarify what 

22 the issues are and what people's interests are. You 
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1 know, options come from the group. We assist people 

2 in trying to get to the point of proposing options. 

3 We're also available to have private 

4 discussions with either individual members or 

5 subcommittees. You know, other things that we do is, 

6 you know, we're kind of watching to see what the 

7 dynamic might be in the room, and to try to make sure 

8 that people don't get lost in the process or move 

9 away from the process. 

10 Here you have a very dramatic depiction of 

11 somebody that looks like they're perhaps not liking 

12 what they hear. That body language is really pretty 

13 dramatic. Often, people aren't that explicit in 

14 their body language. Part of what it is that we're 

15 going to be looking for is body language that might 

16 indicate that people are having concerns about what 

17 it is they're hearing. 

18 So you know, we will try to address that, 

19 make sure concerns come in. Often people have body 

20 language like that when they've stopped listening, 

21 and they're thinking about the discussion they had 

22 with their spouse last night. So you know, if I 
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1 start asking you questions, it could be that I'm seeing 

2 body language that has nothing to do with the process 

3 here, and we'll just kind of realize that we've had a 

4 miscue there. 

5 So as the neutrals, we're obligating 

6 ourselves to provide a fair and impartial 

7 problem-solving process, to address all the interests 

8 that are involved. We're only going to know those 

9 interests to the extent that they are expressed by 

10 the people that are here at the table. 

11 So in terms of the actual rulemaking, it's 

12 the participants that are the key players here, and 

13 there is a slide that talks about the obligation of 

14 the participants, in terms of how they asked to be 

15 part of this working group, that they've committed 

16 themselves to a problem-solving approach. 

17 Ashley, did you want to say anything about 

18 that? No, okay. So again, the expectation is that 

19 everyone is here in good faith trying to help reach 

20 the goal of a term sheet that can turn into a DOE 

21 rule. 

22 MS. ARMSTRONG: All right. Maybe I will 
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1 say one thing. I think one of the things that we'd 

2 like to emphasize, especially at the outset, and 

3 something we've been trying to do more is that, you 

4 know, we really are here to work together in good 

5 faith and get to a solution. 

6 So with that in mind, we're hoping that if 

7 anyone wishes to vote no on something, that they will 

8 at that point offer up an alternative solution for 

9 consideration and discussion by the group, that we 

10 don't have anyone on the committee that the answer is 

11 just always no, without providing additional, you 

12 know, an additional pathway for consideration kind of 

13 thing. 

14 MR. BOSWELL: So this is a schematic of 

15 the way a negotiated rulemaking works, you know. 

16 Ideally, we have all the committee at the table. 

17 Here we have an extended table. 

18 Normally, a rule would have committee 

19 members, technical advisors off to the side, as well 

20 as, you know, stakeholders who may be not represented 

21 or not members of the committee, but physically 

22 present in the audience or on the web, or 
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1 stakeholders that are just, you know, not 

2 participating. 

3 I guess one of the things that I wanted to 

4 say is like right now we kind of randomly have four 

5 people at the side table. To the extent that we stay 

6 in this room and we can't find some way of getting 

7 everyone physically at the table, I'd like to make 

8 sure that, you know, you may see us changing tent 

9 cards around to make sure that we get people flowing 

10 at the table, and not that we always have the same 

11 people off to the side. 

12 So if you see us moving tent cards around, 

13 some of that is to make sure that, you know, we're 

14 kind of circulating who's at the main table as well. 

15 I think it's going to be challenge for all of us to 

16 make sure that we -- make sure that whoever's not at 

17 the table is being brought into the discussions. 

18 Obviously, there's a whole row that have their backs 

19 to those people, so they're not really going to be 

20 able to see them. 

21 And, as I mentioned, if you're on the web 

22 as a committee member, hopefully you'll have an open 
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1 mic, and you'll just need to signal that you want to 

2 be heard, and then we'll call on you kind of in the 

3 order of when the request has been made. 

4 MS. KOHL: Hey Wade, before you leave that 

5 slide, just a note on that little orange block. This 

6 is Betsy Kohl, DOE OGC, about every member having a 

7 veto. That's the default for what consensus is. But 

8 part of what this working group will negotiate is 

9 what consensus means. 

10 So for example in a pumps negotiated 

11 rulemaking, we had two no's could still be consensus 

12 for the purposes of moving forward. So just keep 

13 that in mind. 

14 MR. BOSWELL: Right, and we're going to 

15 get to -- when we start talking about ground rules, 

16 I'm going to do the slides in a slightly different 

17 order. We have a series of slides on consensus, so 

18 that the group can decide what constitutes consensus. 

19 As Becky was just saying, under the 

20 Negotiated Rulemaking Act, the consensus means a 

21 unanimous decision by the committee, or some smaller 

22 number than unanimous, that the committee has 
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1 unanimously agreed to, to define consensus. 

2 So you know, the draft -- the ground rules 

3 that were handed out, as an example, from last week's 

4 new working group, which I know if you don't have 

5 yet, you'll see there that they could have up to -- 

6 if they had three votes, that constituted a -- three 

7 votes, that that constitutes -- three negative votes 

8 meant that there was no consensus. 

9 MS. ARMSTRONG: We've done it a variety of 

10 different ways, and we'll discuss all the options 

11 when we get there. 

12 MR. BOSWELL: Exactly. 

13 MS. ARMSTRONG: So let's move quicker. 

14 MR. WOLF: Excuse me. This is Mike Wolf 

15 of Greenheck. Just a clarification on the 

16 stakeholders not present. I sat in on a couple of 

17 meetings last week remotely, and there was not an 

18 open mic, and I have a colleague today back home 

19 listening in, who confirmed his mic is not open 

20 either. So I don't know if that's intentional -- 

21 MS. ARMSTRONG: It's intentional. So 

22 right now we have all the mics for voting members 
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1 only. The people on the phone -- so when we get to 

2 the ground rules, and perhaps it's a good time to let 

3 me just highlight some of the rest of the slides. 

4 But when we get to the ground rules, we'll 

5 discuss participation for non-voting members and then 

6 how we want to handle proxy votes or alternative 

7 votes, and also how we want to handle voting by 

8 webinar, and whether that should be allowed or not. 

9 We've done it a variety of different ways. 

10 Each working group has been different. So it's 

11 really going to be up to us, and that's going to be 

12 spelled out in the ground rules. 

13 MR. BOSWELL: Okay, and just one last 

14 piece on this slide. Before we move forward, is one 

15 of the things that I think we also cover under the 

16 ground rules is who can speak. Normally, it's 

17 committee members that can speak, and some of the 

18 other working groups have agreed that committee 

19 members could invite non-committee members to 

20 actually make a comment during the committee 

21 discussions. 

22 That's something up to this group to 
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1 decide. The other thing that I did want to mention 

2 though is since this is a public meeting, one of the 

3 things that we will do is reserve the last half hour 

4 for public comments, whether they be from people 

5 participating, physically here, or if they want to 

6 communicate comments via the webinar. So there will 

7 be a period, as required under FACA, for public 

8 comments. Okay, and that will be at the end. 

9 Okay. We are going to talk more about 

10 this as we go on, so just moving quickly, you know. 

11 This -- we have the initial meeting here. We have 

12 subsequent meetings that are going to be scheduled. 

13 There will also be the potential for communication 

14 between meetings, and the group could also form 

15 subcommittees, either formally or informally, that 

16 could meet between meetings. 

17 So you know, there are just various ways 

18 that this can take place. We often have a longer 

19 lunch period, to allow people to informally have 

20 discussions amongst themselves during that period of 

21 time. We're having our first meeting now. We're 

22 really kind of going through the overview. Ashley's 
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1 given you some history. I think you're all aware of 

2 that. 

3 In terms of the negotiating protocol, just 

4 kind of in the ground rules we'll go over attendance, 

5 responsibilities, alternates, who has the right to 

6 vote, things of that sort. So let's save that 

7 discussion. 

8 One concern is I noticed that we're still 

9 missing at least one, maybe two committee members, 

10 that we're not aware of their whereabouts. If you 

11 know, we also need to talk about at some point if 

12 someone finds that they're unable to participate, 

13 perhaps actually withdrawing from the committee. 

14 MS. WALTNER: I know Louis Starr is on the 

15 webinar. I don't know if he's in your count of the 

16 two that are missing but -- 

17 MR. BOSWELL: Yes. So you can unmute him? 

18 (Off mic comments.) 

19 MR. FINE: Thank you. 

20 MR. BOSWELL: Okay. So we now actually 

21 may have all our members accounted for. 

22 (Pause.) 
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1 MR. BOSWELL: So you know, one of the 

2 things that we may do as the facilitators between 

3 meetings, we may touch base with committee members. 

4 We'll be helping to agenda distribute, develop and 

5 distribute the agendas. If there's information that 

6 needs to be sent to all the committee members, we'll 

7 take care of making sure that that gets distributed. 

8 Any required notices we'll distribute through our 

9 offices. 

10 The next slide on concluding negotiations. 

11 I think let's kind of review this. Once we get to 

12 the end product, it probably makes more sense to 

13 discuss this. In the past, these working groups have 

14 always sent out a report to ASRAC with consensus, 

15 although there are other possibilities as well, which 

16 we haven't gotten to yet. So let's move into ground 

17 rules. 

18 MS. ARMSTRONG: So we can do this one of 

19 two ways. It's kind of up to you how you want to do 

20 it. We can walk through the ground rules and I can 

21 get them up on the computer and start typing changes 

22 as people make suggestions, so we have -- obviously 
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1 we need a record at the end of the day. 

2 I don't know if you want to go through 

3 these slides or just do it, kind of explain the 

4 concepts that are on the slides as we move through 

5 the ground rules themselves. 

6 MR. BOSWELL: Yeah, and this is the one 

7 thing I was going to do different. It has us kind of 

8 going through the markup of the ground rules first, 

9 and then it goes into the discussion about consensus. 

10 I think it makes sense to talk about consensus, and 

11 then do that step by step. 

12 MS. ARMSTRONG: Sure. Let me explain 

13 consensus high level real quick, and I'll get the 

14 ground rules up on the slides next. 

15 MR. BOSWELL: Okay. So as we talked about 

16 under the Negotiated Rulemaking Act, consensus 

17 requires unanimity. In your ground rules, you can 

18 decide that consensus is other than unanimity. As 

19 part of that, implicit in that is the fact that, you 

20 know, people will be voting at various times. 

21 I want to make sure that everyone has had 

22 a chance to be heard, and that the decision that's 
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1 reached, although it might not be someone's first 

2 choice, it's the decision I can actually live with. 

3 Our role as facilitators is try to help people get 

4 the point where they can support what's being agreed 

5 to by the group as a whole, where it involves 

6 considering interests. 

7 The main thing to think about is under, 

8 you know, with consensus is it can really come -- 

9 there's a consensus ladder here that spells out five 

10 steps. The way that we normally do this is we think 

11 in terms of three steps. 

12 So when we take votes, and for those of 

13 you who have seen other committees or have been on 

14 other committees, we generally just ask people would 

15 you like a temperature check as the discussion's 

16 going on, to see where people are, not a formal vote. 

17 And you know, the general easiest thing 

18 for people is if you're in agreement, to just kind of 

19 hold a thumb up. That means you completely agree 

20 it's acceptable. If it's something you can live with 

21 or can live with without blocking it, it's more of a 

22 thumbs sideways, and if it's something that you can't 
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1 live with and would block, it's thumbs down. 

2 So if we have thumbs up or thumbs 

3 sideways, that's really agreement consensus. If we 

4 see that have a lot of thumbs sideways, that is 

5 probably a signal to us that more discussion needs to 

6 take place. 

7 As Ashley was saying, you know, if it's a 

8 thumbs down, as part of being a committee member 

9 here, you know, your responsibility and we'll ask 

10 questions is to explain what your concern is, you 

11 know, why is it a thumbs down and if it's a thumbs 

12 down, not only what your concern is but the 

13 expectation is that you'll suggest an alternative 

14 that can be discussed. 

15 So you know, when we talk about voting, 

16 it's generally one of these three. Any questions 

17 about that? 

18 (No response.) 

19 MR. BOSWELL: We've talked about 

20 definitions and consensus, but I don't think we need 

21 to go through all that. I think, unless there are 

22 questions about consensus, we can actually just move 
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1 back and start the discussion on the ground rules 

2 themselves. 

3 FEMALE PARTICIPANT: You wouldn't happen 

4 to have a copy of the ground rules? 

5 MR. BOSWELL: Oh, you know, we've not 

6 handed them out. This is one where last time, and I 

7 don't know if, you know, they took like short breaks 

8 so that people could actually spend a couple of 

9 minutes reading them. 

10 (Off mic comment.) 

11 MR. BOSWELL: Okay. So I'm going to make 

12 sure everyone has a copy before you leave the room. 

13 Why don't we take like a 10-15 minute break? People 

14 can read through the ground rules during that period, 

15 and then we'll come back and start talking about -- 

16 and we'll probably start off talking about consensus, 

17 since that's normally one of the more complicated 

18 discussions. Then we'll go through the steps. 

19 (Whereupon, a short recess was taken.) 

20 MR. BOSWELL: So if we can come back. So 

21 as I mentioned earlier, the ground rules that we 

22 handed out were the ground rules that had been 
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1 adopted by the working group that kicked off last 

2 week, and so this was the final agreement on their 

3 ground rules, and we're just using their ground rules 

4 as a starting point. 

5 That was a smaller committee. I think 

6 that probably had like maybe 17 people on it, as 

7 opposed to 25 people on it. So all their numbers 

8 were based on what made sense for their committee. 

9 So what I think makes sense, in order to 

10 actually go through these, is to start with the 

11 definition of consensus, which is paragraph 3(b) as 

12 in Boy. And so this is again, just reiterating the 

13 concept we've been talking about. The group will 

14 offer it by consensus. The working group has defined 

15 consensus as an agreement with less than however many 

16 negative votes that the group might decide on. 

17 If there are that many negative votes, 

18 there is no consensus. Concurrence will be assumed 

19 if there is an absence or an abstention, versus a 

20 dissent, which would be evidenced by an actual 

21 negative vote. Abstentions shall not be construed as 

22 negative votes. So Ashley, in terms of this 
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1 particular paragraph -- 

2 MS. ARMSTRONG: I think we need quorum 

3 first, then we can do it. 

4 MR. BOSWELL: So I guess -- 

5 MS. ARMSTRONG: We have a full working 

6 group, so all 25 slots are taken. So it's 25 people 

7 total to establish a quorum to be able to vote. Do 

8 you guys have an opinion about how many people may 

9 not be in attendance in order to establish quorum? 

10 They did 12 of 17, just as an example. 

11 MR. FERNSTROM: Ashley, this is Gary. I 

12 suggest for starters that we consider 20 out of 25. 

13 MS. ARMSTRONG: Okay. 

14 MR. BOSWELL: And we'll go over this as we 

15 go through here. In terms of the quorum, we're also 

16 counting people that are participating by web, as 

17 well as normally if people have designated 

18 alternates, when the ground rules will be, will they 

19 be voting. So when we're talking about quorum, that 

20 number would normally include people on the web that 

21 are members, as well as -- 

22 MS. ARMSTRONG: We've done it both ways. 
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1 So it just depends if the working group decides that 

2 people can vote by the web then. 

3 MR. BOSWELL: Hold up your tent card so we 

4 can see. 

5 MR. BUBLITZ: This is Mark Bublitz of the 

6 New York Blower Company. Can you provide any history 

7 on previous working groups. Did they -- was there 

8 regularly 12 or regularly five or six people absent, 

9 or in general did just everyone show up? 

10 MS. ARMSTRONG: I would say so I've 

11 probably been involved roughly in half of them, and 

12 in my typical practice, almost everyone showed up, 

13 and if they couldn't, they would send an alternate. 

14 It was very rare that we had more than one or two 

15 people missing, for whatever reason so -- 

16 MR. FERNSTROM: This is Gary again. I 

17 might also add that I was a voting member in the 

18 group that developed this, and it had a very 

19 compressed schedule. So I think there may be a 

20 tendency to be a little more lenient with respect to 

21 the expectation that everyone would show up. 

22 MR. BOSWELL: So I'm hearing one proposal, 
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1 I'm hearing one proposal for a quorum being 20 

2 members. Are there other thoughts on a number, or do 

3 we want to kind of do a temperature check on 20 as a 

4 quorum? 

5 MR. FINE: You can go higher or lower. 

6 It's up to you. 

7 MR. BOSWELL: Lower. 

8 MS. PETRILLO-GROH: I think provided that 

9 the quorum does include those on the web meeting, I 

10 wouldn't have a problem with 20. 

11 MR. FERNSTROM: This is Gary. Why don't 

12 we take that as a placeholder and move on to some of 

13 the other issues that might affect our opinion about 

14 quorum, and if we reach agreement on that, this may 

15 come to an easy conclusion. 

16 MS. ARMSTRONG: We can always do a draft 

17 of this, and everybody can think about it during 

18 lunch before we actually vote after lunch, if people 

19 want to talk about it a little. 

20 MR. BOSWELL: And you know, as Ashley was 

21 saying, groups can go either way in terms of who can 

22 vote. The language here does talk about the quorum, 
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1 including remote working group attendees. So if we 

2 decide that's not the case, we just want to make sure 

3 we go back and change this language too. 

4 MS. WALTNER: Ashley, a couple other 

5 thoughts. This is Meg. We might want to discuss the 

6 schedule before finalizing quorum, because that will 

7 give us some insight just as to how this group will 

8 be, to schedule. And then, you know, I think the 12 

9 out of 17 was based on around 75 percent, which would 

10 put us down at 18. 

11 MS. ARMSTRONG: Yes. 

12 MS. WALTNER: I personally don't have 

13 concerns with the 20, but just put that out for the 

14 group to know. 

15 MS. ARMSTRONG: Sounds good. So for 

16 consensus, I'm just going to go ahead and move on. 

17 For consensus, we've had varying differences of 

18 opinion. We've had as few as two. I think we've had 

19 as many as four. But it stays around the two, three, 

20 four range negative votes, at least in the past like 

21 six or so working groups that we have gone through. 

22 I don't know if you all have any thoughts. 
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1 This was three of the 17, so on a ratio basis, if 

2 we're following suit, it would be a little more. But 

3 it's totally up to the committee, in terms of how 

4 many no votes you would entertain, but still move 

5 forward with a consensus-based recommendation. 

6 MR. FERNSTROM: So this is Gary again. 

7 The issue here is we don't want so few, that one 

8 maverick can block the whole thing. On the other 

9 hand, we don't want so many that a legitimate issue 

10 can't be properly addressed. Being that we have 25 

11 on the committee, I'd recommend four to block. 

12 MR. BOSWELL: Laura. 

13 MS. PETRILLO-GROH: This is Laura Petrillo 

14 from AHRI. I would agree with that. 

15 MR. BOSWELL: Other thoughts? 

16 (No response.) 

17 MR. SMITH: One of my concerns is the size 

18 of this group. We all know that if you had three 

19 guys getting together in a back room, you know, you 

20 can work stuff out pretty quickly. So as the group 

21 gets larger, the difficulty, you know, you get 

22 time-compressed. There's a lot of opinions that are 
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1 expressed, and it's hard to come to conclusions. 

2 So that would argue for more, rather than 

3 fewer. If we take the ratio that was used by the 

4 previous working group, that would say we should have 

5 four and a half, I would argue for five, just in the 

6 interest of trying to facilitate the challenges, you 

7 know, overcome the challenges associated with the 

8 size of the group. 

9 MR. FERNSTROM: So this is Gary again. I 

10 don't disagree with that logic, but I make the 

11 observation that for the advocates at the table, I 

12 think there are only four of us. Louis is on the 

13 phone. So if we go four and a half or five, that 

14 would mean the advocates could not block, and I don't 

15 think we want any interest group to be precluded from 

16 being able to effectively negotiate in this group. 

17 MR. BOSWELL: Thoughts on that. 

18 MS. ARMSTRONG: Thoughts on four? Good 

19 placeholder for now? Sure. 

20 MR. HARTLEIN: I want to think about that 

21 logic for a minute. 

22 FEMALE PARTICIPANT: Please state your 
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1 name. 

2 MR. HARTLEIN: This is Dan Hartlein, I'm 

3 sorry. The thought that pops into my head, and I 

4 haven't really sorted this through, haven't been 

5 through this process before, but that would also seem 

6 to argue the opposite to me Gary, that a certain 

7 interest shouldn't have the entire ability to block. 

8 You should be able to sway somebody not in your 

9 interest group to come with you to block. 

10 It would seem to me that that would be an 

11 effective way to represent consensus. I would 

12 represent those numbers differently. 

13 MR. FERNSTROM: This is Gary. Okay so, 

14 you know, I agree with you with respect to the way 

15 industry may see things and come to the table. So 

16 there are manufacturers, distributors, users of the 

17 equipment, you know, a whole bunch of different 

18 stakeholders represented. 

19 But generally these efficiency 

20 negotiations come down to a negotiation between the 

21 environmental or efficiency advocates and everyone 

22 else, with DOE being the decision-maker. So with the 
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1 advocates as a group being unable to block, it would 

2 seem to me that we might just as well not even come 

3 to the meeting. 

4 You know, we have got to have the 

5 capacity, if we can reach unanimity among ourselves, 

6 to be able to take a position in this working group. 

7 MR. HARTLEIN: Okay. I would say the 

8 experience we've had to date, in working with the 

9 consensus process that we were on, would represent 

10 that there shouldn't be a problem for that group in 

11 bringing us with you. 

12 So again, I'm going to stick with a 

13 recommendation of five at this point, for the reasons 

14 that I've stated, and I don't know that we need to 

15 debate it any further. But that's my -- would be my 

16 recommendation. 

17 MR. BOSWELL: Other thoughts? Laura. 

18 MS. PETRILLO-GROH: This is Laura 

19 Petrillo-Groh from AHRI. I completely understand 

20 where Gary is coming from, and remain supportive of 

21 four. 

22 MR. BOSWELL: Yes. 
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1 MR. HAUER: For four. Armin Hauer. 

2 MR. BOSWELL: Mark. 

3 MR. FLY: Mary Fly with AAON. I would 

4 also vote for four. I think we have an unusual 

5 amount of stakeholders represented, and subtleties 

6 between some of the stakeholders, and I would hate to 

7 see any group shut out if we got the number too 

8 large. 

9 MR. FERNSTROM: This is Gary. Maybe just 

10 one more comment. There's a strong, strong emphasis 

11 in these working groups on collaborating and reaching 

12 consensus, and I think we're going to be able to work 

13 productively and come to a consensus, where it's 

14 defined as four required to block. 

15 That would require complete unanimity 

16 among the advocates, and that's a high bar, because 

17 we don't always have exactly the same perspective. 

18 MS. ARMSTRONG: I will note one thing, 

19 just as you consider this discussion. Being on the 

20 parent group, ASRAC, when these working group term 

21 sheets are typically sent to ASRAC, the questions 

22 that ASRAC typically asks are, you know, what were 
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1 the votes for each of the items in the term sheet, 

2 and if it wasn't unanimous, that word, then they ask 

3 why. 

4 Like what was the actual vote count, and 

5 for those that voted no, what was their reason. So 

6 they typically want to know why. So being that in 

7 and of itself usually makes people acknowledge why 

8 they didn't vote no, and sometimes that changes how 

9 people vote as well. 

10 So it could be something that we want to 

11 think about, you know. Let's go through perhaps the 

12 rest of the ground rules without officially voting on 

13 them, so we can't get -- until we decide what 

14 consensus is. 

15 But perhaps we can work through -- I'll 

16 start back up at the top -- work through all of the 

17 details of the ground rules, and then when we break 

18 for lunch, you guys can caucus and talk about it, and 

19 we can come back and make some tweaks and maybe get a 

20 ground rule sheet after lunch. Would that work? 

21 Somewhere between four or five. 

22 MR. BOSWELL: Laura. 
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1 MS. PETRILLO-GROH: This is Laura 

2 Petrillo-Groh from AHRI. Quick question. You said 

3 there are one or two members of the committee that 

4 are not accounted for. 

5 MR. BOSWELL: I think we now have them all 

6 accounted for. 

7 MS. PETRILLO-GROH: Oh, okay. 

8 MS. ARMSTRONG: There's one. One's not 

9 here. One's sick. 

10 MS. PETRILLO-GROH: Thank you. Oh, thank 

11 you. 

12 MR. BOSWELL: Accounted for. 

13 MS. PETRILLO-GROH: Okay. Everyone's 

14 accounted for? 

15 MR. BOSWELL: Right. Other comments 

16 before we move on? 

17 MR. FINE: Did you have another question? 

18 Okay. 

19 MR. BOSWELL: So Ashley, did you want to 

20 walk through this? 

21 MS. ARMSTRONG: Yeah. I'm typing as we 

22 go. So the first has to do with the goal. So I'm 
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1 going to type something which has to do with the 

2 charter that ASRAC gave you guys in terms of the 

3 task, and then we can obviously tweak that as you 

4 might wish. 

5 (Pause, off mic comments.) 

6 MS. ARMSTRONG: I guess I could have done 

7 this last night. I apologize. So does anyone have 

8 anything to add before I start copying and pasting 

9 the same phrase over and over again? ASRAC asked you 

10 guys to at least entertain certain definitions, 

11 certain test procedure provisions as applicable or 

12 as, you know, that are important to the committee to 

13 discuss. 

14 Obviously not the full details of all -- 

15 how the test procedure would be implemented, and then 

16 propose standards, and obviously along with that 

17 would be the scope of those standards. 

18 MR. FERNSTROM: So this is Gary again. 

19 Ashley, one dimension of this that I think we talked 

20 about in our preceding meetings was the manner in 

21 which performance might be specified or reported, 

22 relative to the metric and test procedure. 
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1 MS. ARMSTRONG: So you're talking about 

2 like representation, certification labeling? 

3 MR. FERNSTROM: Well maybe some of the 

4 rest of you from the fan industry can help me out. 

5 But we talked about how in order to have some 

6 influence over the way fans are specified, we were 

7 going to limit the range of operation, which is 

8 reported such that inefficient, very inefficient 

9 operation on one end or the other end of the range 

10 would not be specified and reported, and we hope that 

11 would discourage application of fans in those very 

12 inefficient ranges. 

13 MS. ARMSTRONG: So I think that's what you 

14 need, what I just wrote on the board. 

15 MR. BOSWELL: Okay, thank you. 

16 MR. FINE: There's another comment. 

17 MR. FLY: Mark Fly from AAON. I think one 

18 of the really important things that we've got to 

19 discuss is the scope of the products being covered by 

20 this rule because, you know, are we complying -- you 

21 know, are we including fans in your laptop or are we 

22 improving, you know, tunnel ventilation fans. I 
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1 think scope is one of the things that needs to be 

2 added to the definitions. 

3 MS. ARMSTRONG: So what I have here is 

4 certain definitions, certain test procedure 

5 provisions as applicable, proposed energy 

6 conservation standards, including the scope of the 

7 standards, and specific certification and labeling 

8 provisions as necessary to implement the regulatory 

9 approach. 

10 MR. HARTLEIN: I would assume that -- 

11 MR. BOSWELL: Identify yourself please. 

12 MR. HARTLEIN: Dan Hartlein, Twin City 

13 Fan. I'm assuming that scope would also then include 

14 exemptions; correct? 

15 MS. ARMSTRONG: Correct. 

16 MR. HARTLEIN: That does need to be 

17 mentioned. 

18 MR. BOSWELL: Yes. 

19 MR. ROY: Aniruddh Roy, Goodman. I would 

20 recommend that scope be added to -- be removed from 

21 the parenthesis and be added in the first change. So 

22 before certain definitions, it would say "to 
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1 negotiate, scope, certain definitions, certain test 

2 procedure" and so on. 

3 MS. ARMSTRONG: So we can certainly do 

4 that. I don't have an opinion on that, although the 

5 way it works in the DOE regulatory world is that DOE 

6 will consider a definition which is going to be DOE's 

7 scope of coverage or DOE's authority, the ability for 

8 it to set standards for any type of product needing 

9 -- any category of products that meet, ultimately 

10 meet that definition. 

11 When you're negotiating standards, like 

12 for example in pumps, they took a subset of that 

13 products meeting that definition, to ultimately set 

14 standards for it. That's what we call the scope of 

15 the standards. The scope will be different than the 

16 definition. 

17 So I think this covers it. I don't have 

18 an opinion about calling out scope. It's not a hard 

19 line for me. But when it gets implemented, this is 

20 exactly what it will be, definitions and then the 

21 applicability of those standards, which can have a 

22 different or the same scope. 
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1 MR. FERNSTROM: So Ashley, this is Gary. 

2 To perhaps avoid the confusion of using the term 

3 "scope" twice, once to mean the scope of regulated 

4 products and the other to mean the scope of products 

5 for which DOE has the authority to regulate, can we 

6 use the term "class of products" to mean those things 

7 that DOE has the authority to regulate, and then the 

8 scope of the regulation would be those things that 

9 DOE actually chooses to regulate within that class of 

10 potentially regulated products? 

11 MS. ARMSTRONG: So I think you're probably 

12 closer with reversing your terms. 

13 MR. FERNSTROM: Okay. 

14 MS. ARMSTRONG: But you know, if I use 

15 definitions versus scope, is that -- that's a hangup 

16 to you guys. That's fine. 

17 MR. FERNSTROM: It doesn't bother me which 

18 -- it doesn't matter to me which terms goes where, 

19 but I find it confusing to use the term scope twice, 

20 because it's confusing. So we should use one term to 

21 mean the products that DOE has the authority to 

22 regulate, and another term to mean the products that 
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1 DOE is regulating absent exclusions that we may agree 

2 to. 

3 MS. ARMSTRONG: You got any suggestions? 

4 MS. KOHL: Well, this is Betsy Kohl, DOE 

5 GC. It's the second part that the working group is 

6 really going to focus on, which fans are we going to 

7 set standards for. That's the focus of this working 

8 group, not DOE's broad authority. 

9 MR. FERNSTROM: But Betsy, this is Gary 

10 again. But doesn't DOE make an interpretation of 

11 what the extent of its broad authority is, and we 

12 want to be clear about that? 

13 MS. KOHL: Yes, Betsy, DOE GC. But so -- 

14 MS. ARMSTRONG: How about we'll get to 

15 that? 

16 MS. KOHL: Yeah. 

17 MS. ARMSTRONG: We are going to define a 

18 fan as part of that. I know there's going to some 

19 nuances there. But I think what Betsy's telling you 

20 is, you know, we leave our fan definition fairly 

21 broad, even if this committee decides to have a 

22 discussion about narrowing the scope for standards or 
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1 test procedures. 

2 MR. FERNSTROM: Thank you. I understand 

3 that you wanted to leave the definition broad. I was 

4 just searching for a term that related to what that 

5 broad definition was going to be. Thanks. 

6 MS. ARMSTRONG: Is that clear? 

7 MS. KOHL: So we typically use the term 

8 scope of coverage for the broader definition? Yeah, 

9 it's negotiate. Yeah, yeah. 

10 (Pause.) 

11 MS. ARMSTRONG: Okay. Can everyone live 

12 with this for now? 

13 (No response.) 

14 MR. BOSWELL: Okay. Do you want to do a 

15 temperature check? Those that can live with this, 

16 acceptable? 

17 (Show of thumbs.) 

18 MR. BOSWELL: Okay, any. Any -- yeah, 

19 okay. I didn't see anyone that didn't seem not to be 

20 in agreement with this; correct? 

21 MS. ARMSTRONG: There's probably way to 

22 say this. I'm just going to say it this way. 
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1 (Pause.) 

2 MS. ARMSTRONG: So we have three months 

3 from ASRAC. So that would bring us to, given I guess 

4 August 6th. I'm not sure what day of the week that 

5 is, but I can look that up. And so at that time, we 

6 are required to pass along final terms, a final term 

7 sheet if we have one, or request from ASRAC more 

8 time. 

9 So do you want me to note that we also may 

10 ask for more time after the three months, or do we 

11 want to be go-getters and leave ourselves with a 

12 deadline of August 6th for now? 

13 MR. SMILEY: Yeah. This is Bill Smiley, 

14 Trane. What's the significance of three months? Did 

15 somebody just pull that out of the air, or somebody 

16 have a performance review coming up then, or what is 

17 the reason? 

18 MS. ARMSTRONG: I don't have a performance 

19 review then. My ability or inability to negotiate 

20 these, I'm not sure that that's going to matter in my 

21 performance review. But that being said, ASRAC when 

22 they were talking about what is a general time table 
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1 for -- a good time table typically starts out with a 

2 three-month time table, and then that three-month 

3 time table, you're required to check in, ask for more 

4 time if it's needed. 

5 In the event that it's -- more time is 

6 asked for, ASRAC has always granted it in the past, 

7 especially when they've authorized it up front. So 

8 here they said, you know, you guys may need a couple 

9 more, a month or two more, and you need to check in 

10 though at the three month. 

11 We need to make sure you're still making 

12 progress; we need to make sure you're not at an 

13 impasse, and if ASRAC needs to shut down the 

14 committee because it's at an impasse or it needs to 

15 give you more time because you're making great work, 

16 you're just not quite done yet, then that's kind of 

17 what that deadline represents. 

18 So I'm happy to rewrite this last section 

19 to reflect that language a little better, or we can 

20 keep it as a hard deadline. It doesn't really matter 

21 to me. Irrespective, by August 6th we do have to 

22 send -- our facilitators and the committee needs to 
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1 send something back to ASRAC. 

2 MR. BOSWELL: Dan. 

3 MR. HARTLEIN: Dan Hartlein. So is there 

4 any -- is there any repercussion if we go longer and 

5 we've set that date? 

6 MS. ARMSTRONG: So you at least have to -- 

7 you have to report back to ASRAC, and if ASRAC says 

8 okay, keep going, you're making great progress, good 

9 job guys, not repercussions at all. If they say you 

10 haven't done anything, you haven't been able to get 

11 past definitions since day one, then they might say, 

12 you know, done. We recommend DOE go forth on its own 

13 rule. 

14 MR. HARTLEIN: Is that a subtle point? 

15 MS. ARMSTRONG: Nope. 

16 MR. HARTLEIN: Okay. 

17 MS. ARMSTRONG: It's my expectations, no 

18 I'm just kidding. I have great confidence in this 

19 committee. 

20 MR. HARTLEIN: Oh great. 

21 MR. FERNSTROM: So this is Gary. From the 

22 efficiency advocate's point of view, there's a 
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1 benefit to getting this work done in a reasonable 

2 amount of time, and getting to a rule, and there's a 

3 cost associated with failure to getting to a rule 

4 frankly. On the other hand, I think we're bringing 

5 into this discussion a wider group of key 

6 stakeholders that maybe have been participating in 

7 the discussion for the last couple of years. 

8 So that would, you know, might indicate a 

9 need for more discussion time to come to agreement. 

10 So long as we don't make ourselves miserable with 

11 having to come every other week to Washington for the 

12 next three months, I'm in favor of three months and 

13 asking for more time, if it turns out that we need 

14 it. 

15 MR. BOSWELL: Other comments? 

16 MR. FINE: Mark, did you have something? 

17 MR. BUBLITZ: Mark Bublitz, The New York 

18 Blower Company. I would just concur, go with the 

19 three months and ask for more time if necessary. 

20 MR. BOSWELL: So as I understand it, ASRAC 

21 has given the committee a date certain by which it 

22 has to report back, and although at that point they 
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1 either need a recommendation or a request for more 

2 time. Is that correct Ashley? 

3 MS. ARMSTRONG: Uh-huh. 

4 MR. BOSWELL: So the question -- 

5 MS. ARMSTRONG: So if I add a note and say 

6 note, if the working group has not been able to reach 

7 consensus on a final term sheet by the date, they may 

8 also request additional time and give ASRAC a status 

9 report by that date. Is that sufficient? Okay. 

10 I'll fill it in later. 

11 MR. BOSWELL: Any comments on that? Okay. 

12 So can we do a quick temperature check? I'm seeing 

13 no dissents. 

14 MS. ARMSTRONG: All right. Moving right 

15 along. So participants, parties to the negotiations, 

16 everyone around the table, all 25 of you, have been 

17 appointed by DOE through ASRAC, to serve on the 

18 working group. Only you may serve, so these 

19 particular individuals. You agreed to serve the full 

20 term until the -- until it's disbanded, for lack of a 

21 better term. 

22 If you're unable to serve or you're 
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1 unable to attend regular meetings, then you need to 

2 talk to the facilitators and DOE, and DOE has the 

3 option to reappoint someone. So I think what's 

4 important here is the alternate discussion. So I'm 

5 just going to ask a couple of questions. 

6 Do we all agree that everyone should be 

7 able to have one alternate, that can come in his or 

8 her place? Yes. Do we all agree that that alternate 

9 should have the ability to vote on behalf of that 

10 interest? Do we all agree that that alternate or the 

11 working group member should be able to vote by 

12 webinar? Did I miss anything? I don't think so. 

13 MR. FINE: Just for the record. 

14 MS. ARMSTRONG: That was a yes to all 

15 three across the board. I don't think anyone said 

16 no, but they should speak up now if they did. 

17 MR. FINE: Yes. 

18 MR. SMITH: That's the wrong card. 

19 MR. FINE: Wade. 

20 MR. SMITH: There was a qualification in 

21 the earlier term sheet about voting remotely that I 

22 didn't think was necessary. "In instances of 
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1 extenuating circumstances," etcetera. Why? 

2 MR. FINE: One time I've heard that on 

3 some occasions, there have been weather issues, and 

4 there was at least one committee that -- in which a 

5 number of people couldn't show up. They were stuck 

6 at O'Hare or something like that. 

7 MR. SMITH: Right. The way this is 

8 worded, it says you can vote remote if there's 

9 extenuating circumstances. My response -- 

10 MS. ARMSTRONG: Where are you? What 

11 section are you on? You're ahead of me. 

12 MR. SMITH: It's Proxy Voting. 

13 MR. FERNSTROM: Well Wade, this is Gary. 

14 The caveat was that if you're in your office or at 

15 home and participating by webinar, you're in effect 

16 attending the meeting, and of course you can vote. 

17 (Off mic comment.) 

18 MR. FERNSTROM: Remote, well remote voting 

19 was intended to mean if you're not connected by the 

20 webinar and you're not attending the meeting, you 

21 just happen to be on the phone. So it's a subtlety 

22 of semantics, I guess. 
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1 MS. ARMSTRONG: The way I look at is, and 

2 it's a little bit different. You actually have to 

3 declare who your alternate is, and it's you or that 

4 alternate person right at the outset will pick a date 

5 for that. But you need to tell the mediator and DOE 

6 who you and your alternates are, just one person, and 

7 then the proxy voting is if the two of you aren't 

8 available, someone can't jump in and just vote ad 

9 hoc. 

10 MR. BOSWELL: I think probably -- 

11 MS. ARMSTRONG: If the two of you are not 

12 available, that you cannot, you would not be present. 

13 MR. BOSWELL: I think that the concern 

14 there is that anyone that's actually voting should 

15 have participated in the discussion in some way, and 

16 you can do that by webinar or by being here. But if 

17 you make a decision ahead of time, then send it with 

18 someone. It doesn't really reflect the 

19 consensus-making process that the committee was 

20 formed to do. 

21 MS. ARMSTRONG: Right. So attendance, if 

22 you look under attendance, we do expect everyone to 
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1 come to D.C., especially during the summer months 

2 where it's hot and humid and lovely outside. If you 

3 can't though, we understand that's not always 

4 possible for a variety of reasons. We do allow 

5 voting by phone, and that's clear in Item No. 1 under 

6 Attendance. 

7 So we'd be happy to word tweak if you 

8 think additional edits are needed under Proxy. But 

9 otherwise, I think you're covered. You sure? 

10 MR. HARTLEIN: Dan Hartlein. Can an 

11 alternate be a standing member of the committee? 

12 MS. ARMSTRONG: What do you mean by -- you 

13 are the standing member of a committee. 

14 MR. HARTLEIN: Can I appoint Wade as my 

15 alternate? 

16 MS. ARMSTRONG: No. 

17 MR. HARTLEIN: No, okay. 

18 MS. ARMSTRONG: It needs to be from your 

19 company, right. I think it needs to be from the same 

20 entity you're representing. That's my understanding. 

21 MR. FINE: Your card please. 

22 MS. WALTNER: So Ashley in the past -- 
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1 MR. BOSWELL: Would you identify yourself 

2 please? 

3 MS. WALTNER: I'm sorry. Meg Waltner with 

4 NRDC. You know, I think it's something we could 

5 discuss, whether you could allow another member of 

6 the committee to have your vote. It's something we 

7 did, I think, once on the pumps rulemaking, if we 

8 decide to allow it. 

9 MS. ARMSTRONG: You guys have any opinions 

10 on that as facilitators? We have not allowed that in 

11 the past, in the ones I've been a part of. I know 

12 that for a fact. I was not on pumps. 

13 MR. FERNSTROM: Well this is Gary -- 

14 MS. WALTNER: Oh, we decided that was an 

15 extra vote. Okay. 

16 MR. FERNSTROM: That's hard to reach. 

17 FEMALE PARTICIPANT: Joanna. 

18 MR. FERNSTROM: In the previous working 

19 group, where we developed the reference that we're 

20 looking at here, we talked about proxies, and the 

21 general feeling was the group did not want to leave 

22 an open-ended opportunity for some proxy 
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1 representative to vote however they felt, and that 

2 the choice would be to appointed an alternate who 

3 could presumably vote in a knowledgeable and 

4 previously understood direction. So I'm okay with no 

5 proxies. 

6 MR. BOSWELL: You okay with it? 

7 MS. WALTNER: I'm comfortable with that. 

8 MR. BOSWELL: Thanks, sorry. 

9 MR. HAUER: Armin Hauer. I would rather 

10 say we should have proxies, because I would find it 

11 more beneficial if a committee member who is 

12 completely aware of all the discussions, if that 

13 person would be allowed to vote instead of an 

14 alternate, who will never be on the very same 

15 information level than the main delegate. 

16 MR. FERNSTROM: This is Gary. I'm not 

17 quite understanding that point. Presumably, the 

18 alternate would be knowledgeable, as a consequence of 

19 your having worked with them, and a proxy could be 

20 anyone you might appoint, who might not be 

21 knowledgeable. So the reason we previously went with 

22 the alternate and not the proxy was to get at what I 
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1 think your objective is, to make sure that we have 

2 someone voting on your behalf that is familiar with 

3 the process. 

4 MS. ARMSTRONG: All right, and I will note 

5 that under the alternate, the alternate is supposed 

6 to briefed of matters of concern to them. So if you 

7 are electing to have an alternate right out the gate, 

8 then you need to keep them apprised of what is going 

9 on and how you may want them to vote, so that they 

10 are prepared if they ever need to come in your place. 

11 MR. BOSWELL: Wade. 

12 MR. SMITH: Well, I think that a member of 

13 this working group should be able to facilitate their 

14 vote on matters of importance as they wish. If that 

15 means an alternate, so be it. If it means a proxy, 

16 so be it. Why should the committee care? Why should 

17 the committee be interested in removing, for example, 

18 from me, my ability to vote on a subject because my 

19 son is getting married on Friday and I have to leave 

20 early? 

21 I mean let me -- let me decide how I want 

22 my vote to be represented in the group. Why not a 
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1 proxy? 

2 MR. HAUER: Especially if you deal with 

3 small manufacturing -- 

4 MR. BOSWELL: Would you identify yourself 

5 again please for the transcript? 

6 MR. HAUER: Armin Hauer. Especially when 

7 we deal with small manufacturers, where it's 

8 basically impossible to inform the alternate of 

9 everything that has been going on. In my case, it's 

10 not possible. 

11 MR. BOSWELL: Greg. 

12 MR. WAGNER: I would third that. I agree 

13 that it's not possible to have even an alternate that 

14 you're keeping aware of the discussions involved in 

15 the analysis and all the other things. They're not 

16 sitting here at the table negotiating and 

17 participating. 

18 As Wade said, if you have another 

19 obligation, wedding, whatever, may not be able to be 

20 there through the full extent of the meetings, and 

21 therefore should be able to extend a proxy to say 

22 another voting member of this committee, that you 
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1 have confidence in that they'll vote your interests. 

2 MR. FERNSTROM: This is Gary. You know, 

3 while I respect your all capability to utilize your 

4 own vote and find proxies or alternates that are 

5 appropriate, and having participated in many of these 

6 working groups, I don't know, four or five now, I 

7 can't attribute that same level of responsibility to 

8 everyone I've worked with. 

9 So I don't believe the committee as a 

10 whole can trust everybody to have that same level of 

11 prudency in briefing and choosing their alternate. 

12 MR. BOSWELL: Wade. 

13 MR. SMITH: This is Wade Smith. But it's 

14 their vote. It's not your vote. It's not your place 

15 to tell them as a committee member how they choose to 

16 exercise their right to vote. Let the individual 

17 committee member make their own decision about how 

18 they choose to vote. 

19 MR. FERNSTROM: Well this is Gary again. 

20 I disagree. As a committee member, I feel it's my 

21 responsibility to assure the integrity and 

22 credibility of the committee, and not leave it up to 
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1 the whim of any individual who may not act 

2 responsibly. When it comes to you, the appointed 

3 member, I have confidence that you, when you are 

4 here, will act responsibility, responsibly, because 

5 you were appointed by DOE, and we appreciate your 

6 credentials. 

7 But in a pinch, you know, we might get 

8 somebody that doesn't have that same level, and I 

9 feel it's my responsibility to assure that there's 

10 some control exercised on who you can freely choose 

11 to replace you and vote. 

12 MS. ARMSTRONG: Can I actually -- oh 

13 sorry. 

14 MR. BOSWELL: Sorry. All I was going to 

15 say is I'm hearing proxy being used in two different 

16 ways, and one is proxies being used in the generic, 

17 that one can designate any individual to serve as a 

18 proxy and vote. The other way that I was hearing it 

19 raised initially was that one could give a proxy to 

20 another committee member that happened to be present 

21 for the discussions, so that that committee member 

22 that held the proxy could then vote their own vote 
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1 and another committee member. 

2 So I'm hearing these two different themes, 

3 and I just want to make sure that people are focusing 

4 on those layers of the discussion. 

5 MR. FINE: There's another version of 

6 proxy I was hearing. I was hearing before the actual 

7 meeting, you tell somebody else on the committee or 

8 something here's how I'm going to vote on that issue, 

9 and then, you know, which would essentially deprive 

10 the committee of a chance to change that person's 

11 mind or that interest's mind. 

12 So I heard -- I hear people talking 

13 different. I'm concerned, like Wade was, that people 

14 are talking about proxy, but people are talking about 

15 different things. 

16 MS. ARMSTRONG: I do want to make one 

17 clarification, right. It's clear here that 

18 alternates should be designated by your member 

19 organization. So if you are going to delegate an 

20 alternate, that alternate has to be from your 

21 organization. A written proxy, pending our 

22 discussion, I have one concern though. 
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1 Proxy voting is not permitted, depending 

2 on where we fall, and then maybe I should put i.e. 

3 instead of e.g., a member is allowed to delegate his 

4 vote, his or her vote to another committee member, 

5 working group members, to vote by proxy on the 

6 member's behalf. 

7 The only concern I have with that is I 

8 think it should be limited to a certain number of 

9 instances. In other words, I don't think you should 

10 just able to do this to not attend meetings. And so, 

11 you know, that's like I don't want to come, but Wade, 

12 I think you want to come, so Wade, you're always 

13 going to get to vote for DOE. 

14 MS. PETRILLO-GROH: To Ashley's point and 

15 Mike's point as well, I think that limiting the proxy 

16 vote to a specific issue might help, or a specific 

17 number of times. 

18 But I think as it was used in the pumps 

19 rulemaking, there was a specific issue and you had to 

20 maybe get on a plane, and you were not able to be 

21 part of the vote, you had a vote. You aligned well 

22 with someone on the committee, and they were able to 
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1 cast your vote for you, but only on that specific 

2 issue. 

3 When the discussion moved on to something 

4 that you were not a part of, you know, the proxy 

5 ended at that point. 

6 MR. BOSWELL: And Mike, I think I saw you 

7 first. 

8 MR. WOLF: It's Mike Wolf. I'm not sure I 

9 have a passion one way or the other. The only point 

10 of order on my question is depending on how we land 

11 on this, does that proxy vote -- voter then, how does 

12 that count against the quorum? 

13 MR. WIGGINS: Steve Wiggins. The other 

14 concern I've got is if we don't limit and we're not 

15 careful, we can end up with a super-vote by an 

16 individual who can block every single action of the 

17 committee, and that one individual control the 

18 committee. So if I get three other proxy votes and I 

19 now have four, you can't do anything that I don't 

20 want you to do. I can ruin the whole committee. 

21 So I think if we do allow proxies, we need 

22 to limit to only one proxy vote per committee member, 
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1 so the most you could have would be two votes. 

2 (Off mic comment.) 

3 MR. WIGGINS: You'd better believe it. I 

4 used to work for DoD. Been there, done this. 

5 MR. BOSWELL: Wade. 

6 MR. SMITH: Yeah. Gary, the 

7 misunderstanding perhaps is that my interpretation of 

8 what proxy meant is what was written here, which is 

9 that a committee member can designate their vote to 

10 another committee member. So I think your concern 

11 with regard to that issue, of having just somebody 

12 who doesn't know, would be dealt with. 

13 And I agree with what Steve said as well 

14 actually. I think that there are -- I'm fine with 

15 some limits on it, but I think that we have to trust, 

16 in my opinion, the committee members to discharge 

17 their voting rights with some flexibility. 

18 MR. FERNSTROM: This is Gary. So okay 

19 Steve, you and the others have brought to the table a 

20 new dimension to this that I hadn't quite thought of. 

21 So I'm a little more flexible. Thank you. 

22 MS. MAUER: This is Joanna. I guess I'm 
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1 not sure I understand what the problem is that we're 

2 trying to address with proxy voting. I guess one 

3 thing I would clarify is, you know, if you can't be 

4 there and your alternate cannot be there, and so you 

5 can't vote. 

6 You know, it's not recorded as a no vote 

7 for you. You haven't participated in the voting, and 

8 it seems like we're giving a lot of options for 

9 having an alternate. Either you or your alternate 

10 can vote by webinar or phone or email. So I'm not 

11 sure what -- 

12 MR. BOSWELL: Wade. 

13 MR. SMITH: This is Wade. I think that's 

14 good that we have a lot of options. I guess maybe I 

15 am a victim of my own experience, which is running 

16 association meetings and committees and votes, and 

17 members of the committees at AMCA routinely give 

18 their voting rights to other committee members whom 

19 they trust will represent their interests 

20 appropriately. 

21 That's a decision by the committee member 

22 to cast their lot with another committee member, and 
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1 that seems -- that's a common practice in our group, 

2 and you know, we've got -- to answer Mike Wolf's 

3 question, when someone carries a proxy in our 

4 meetings, that counts toward quorum, and I just think 

5 it creates a little bit more fluidity. 

6 You know, we're going to get around to 

7 saying how many no votes are required. It's just -- 

8 when we're trying to build consensus, these votes 

9 matter, and matter a lot. I just -- I would hate to 

10 deprive someone of their vote because of the 

11 circumstances that they couldn't control. 

12 I might have diarrhea today and be out of 

13 the room. I mean, you know, I just -- people don't 

14 normally give their vote up by proxy. I used to work 

15 for a plumbing company, sorry. 

16 MS. ARMSTRONG: Okay. Let's see if I can 

17 strike a deal with my wording here. Proxy voting is 

18 permitted. That is, a member is allowed to delegate 

19 his or her vote to another committee member to vote 

20 by proxy on the member's behalf with the following 

21 restrictions. 

22 A member may only vote by proxy for one 
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1 other member of the working group. In other words, 

2 no more than two, and a working group member may not 

3 delegate his or her vote to another working member to 

4 vote by proxy more than, I put two, but that can be 

5 discussed, two times. In other words, it's limited. 

6 MR. FINE: Is that two times at a meeting 

7 or two times over the -- 

8 MS. ARMSTRONG: Over the course, total. 

9 MR. BOSWELL: I think the question is two 

10 votes or two meetings. 

11 MS. ARMSTRONG: Meetings. I don't think 

12 you can parse all the issues we may vote on for a 

13 particular day at the outset. I think that's going 

14 to be nearly impossible. We've had a term sheet that 

15 had 200 different things that we voted on 

16 individually before. Is this reasonable? You can 

17 live with it? 

18 MR. BOSWELL: Okay. 

19 MS. ARMSTRONG: So I modified quorum. 

20 Proxy and alternate attendants count toward quorum? 

21 Everyone agree with that. 

22 MS. PETRILLO-GROH: Ashley, I would 
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1 actually prefer to see the proxies toward an issue 

2 that the working group member was aware of and had 

3 participated in conversations on, and not just a 

4 blind proxy. So less of a restriction on the number 

5 of times, and more a restriction based on issue. So 

6 that's my personal opinion, and this is Laura. 

7 MS. ARMSTRONG: So this is Ashley. I 

8 don't necessarily disagree with that in theory, 

9 although from a practical, administrative standpoint, 

10 being in these negotiations, it's going to be really 

11 hard to do that, just because sometimes issues come 

12 up. Sometimes they're not teed up in advance, and 

13 maybe that's your point. 

14 They should be prevented from voting on 

15 that. But they're not necessarily issues that 

16 weren't part of a larger discussion before or, I mean 

17 they're not new. I don't know. 

18 MR. BOSWELL: And the question that I 

19 would ask as the facilitator is that it sounds like 

20 the proposal that there be a limitation within the 

21 proxy, in terms of the scope of the authority. We 

22 would then need to determine with each vote whether 
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1 or not the proxy covered the scope. 

2 So we can do that. We just want to clear 

3 that we understand the mechanics that would be 

4 getting involved. 

5 MS. ARMSTRONG: That would be difficult 

6 because -- 

7 MS. PETRILLO-GROH: So for what you have 

8 written here, you could be -- one other working group 

9 member could be a proxy -- 

10 MS. ARMSTRONG: For an entire day. 

11 MS. PETRILLO-GROH: For an entire day, for 

12 all votes taken for that entire meeting? 

13 MS. ARMSTRONG: Correct, correct. 

14 MS. PETRILLO-GROH: If the meeting was two 

15 days -- 

16 MS. ARMSTRONG: I consider a meeting as a 

17 day, but I can say day. 

18 MS. PETRILLO-GROH: And given proxy by 

19 written proxy? 

20 MS. ARMSTRONG: Can we just do proxy being 

21 in-person proxy only? 

22 MS. PETRILLO-GROH: And the proxy given in 
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1 writing. 

2 MR. BOSWELL: The person giving the proxy 

3 to the other member would have to have delegated. 

4 MS. ARMSTRONG: You have to tell the 

5 mediator. You have to give your proxy through the 

6 mediator, just like you have to give your alternate 

7 through the mediator. It has to be written down. 

8 MS. PETRILLO-GROH: Okay, thanks. 

9 MS. ARMSTRONG: Prior to the meeting. 

10 MS. PETRILLO-GROH: Okay. 

11 MS. ARMSTRONG: I guess I should write 

12 that somewhere. 

13 MR. HAUER: Armin Hauer. I would for a 

14 proxy without any conditions applied, because you'd 

15 better trust the person that you give your proxy to. 

16 MS. ARMSTRONG: So I personally don't 

17 think DOE is going to just allow you to give your 

18 proxy. I think DOE would take issue with giving your 

19 proxy to someone else for all the meetings and not 

20 coming, because we do have people that want to be on 

21 this working group that weren't allowed, and are 

22 willing to come to the meetings and participate. 
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1 MR. HAUER: I agree with that one. 

2 However, with Laura's condition, where she said only 

3 items that had been pre-discussed, I think it's not 

4 manageable and it should be general for the whole 

5 meeting day. 

6 MR. BOSWELL: Bill, you had wanted to make 

7 a comment. 

8 MR. SMILEY: Yeah. This is Bill Smiley, 

9 Trane. I have a whole problem with this proxy issue, 

10 in the fact that everybody on this committee has 

11 agreed to and has responsibility to participate in 

12 every meeting one way or the other, whether you can 

13 get an alternate or not. 

14 I like the way it's written here 

15 originally, where only under extenuating 

16 circumstances agreed to by the committee at the time 

17 that they occur, can voting be done any other way 

18 than by the member or by the alternate. 

19 Otherwise, I mean we're going to have two 

20 pages of crap there on talking about the proxy 

21 voting, the way we're going. 

22 MR. BOSWELL: Yes. 
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1 MR. DADDIS: This is Duane Daddis from 

2 Carrier. I agree with Bill, and I think Joanne had 

3 mentioned it earlier. You have your own vote. You 

4 have the ability to set an alternate, and then if you 

5 don't have either of those, you have no vote. 

6 MR. BOSWELL: Joanna. 

7 MS. MAUER: This is Joanna. Just another 

8 potential solution, we in another working group I'm 

9 participating in, we decided that -- we added 

10 language about in extenuating circumstances, the 

11 committee member could nominate kind of an 

12 alternative alternate. It would have to be approved 

13 by the committee, but to address, you know, a 

14 situation where neither you nor your alternate can 

15 attend. 

16 MR. BOSWELL: Other comments? Wade. 

17 MR. SMITH: You know, this is an element 

18 of distrust about the committee members' own 

19 discretion. It's inappropriate. People on this 

20 committee were voted onto this committee. They'll 

21 use their discretion and they should be allowed to. 

22 MR. FERNSTROM: This is Gary. That's 
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1 exactly what it is. I think you couldn't have said 

2 it better. It's a commentary on mutual trust, and 

3 you seem to have a lot of it and I do too, for the 

4 major businesses represented here. But my trust 

5 doesn't go as far as yours. 

6 MR. BOSWELL: Dan. 

7 MR. FERNSTROM: And that's based on my 

8 personal experience working in these groups. 

9 MR. HARTLEIN: So Dan Hartlein, Twin City 

10 Fan. The comment I would make to Wade's point as 

11 well is that I want to remind everybody that AMCA and 

12 the fan industry is made up of small companies, and 

13 for small companies to get -- we have two people 

14 here. My alternate's in the room, okay. We're 

15 covered, however this comes out. 

16 But at the end of the day, we have many, 

17 many, many small members who are going to be part of 

18 the -- who are today part of this process and who 

19 need to see the process through, who speak for a 

20 very, very large segment of our industry. I think 

21 it's over 85 percent by the government's own 

22 definition of what a small company is. 
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1 I think it's an unfair burden to set this 

2 bar for proxy too high to those small members, 

3 because frankly, some of the companies, if they bring 

4 two guys, there's nobody in the office, okay, if they 

5 bring two people. Sorry, it wasn't supposed to be 

6 gender-specific. But if they bring two people, 

7 there's nobody in the office, okay. 

8 So be careful is my advice. Don't set 

9 that bar too high, because they don't have the people 

10 to cover this, nor frankly the resources to get 

11 people here. So -- 

12 MR. BOSWELL: Before we go there, there's 

13 somebody that wanted to speak. 

14 MR. HOWE: Yeah, this is Nick Howe, Carnes 

15 Company. I won't present exactly what Dan was 

16 speaking about and I fully agree. If I can't make it 

17 for say whether -- and my alternate is here, that is 

18 a significant portion of my staff. So I just wanted 

19 to voice that. 

20 MR. FERNSTROM: Well, this is Gary. I'm 

21 confused. Even for small companies, the notion would 

22 be if you can't make it for some reason or other, 
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1 your alternate or somebody else can vote for you. 

2 We're not precluding that. We just don't want you to 

3 be able to appoint a proxy who's going to come in 

4 your absence and may not have the same historical 

5 level of involvement when it comes time to vote. 

6 MR. FINE: Nicholas and then Greg. 

7 MR. HOWE: But I think that goes back a 

8 little bit to appointing somebody in this room from 

9 this committee. I would not pick somebody who has no 

10 idea what's going on. But at the same time when I'm 

11 here, my alternate is not listening and is not here. 

12 So the idea of them being fully as entrained in this 

13 process as I am is really unrealistic, and if I can 

14 pick somebody who I'm confident with in this room, 

15 who I very well know is knowledgeable and I feel will 

16 represent me well, I would like to have that ability. 

17 MR. FINE: Greg. 

18 MR. WAGNER: Yeah, let me -- flying in 

19 here yesterday, I was delayed significantly, almost 

20 didn't make it. Those kind of things are real, for 

21 those of us who are traveling from out of town, and 

22 if my alternate was busy with other obligations 
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1 today, because they knew I'm making the meeting. 

2 They aren't planning on being available, I don't 

3 think it's a big burden to allow my vote or anybody 

4 other's vote to go to a proxy within this group here. 

5 That's a choice and a risk I take as the 

6 representative from my interest. 

7 MS. ARMSTRONG: All right. So we've heard 

8 two different sides, to not allow it altogether or to 

9 allow it with some restrictions. Why don't we think 

10 about it? I'd love some language as a placeholder 

11 and that's a lot harder to write than just saying 

12 it's not permitted. Happy to make changes when we 

13 get back after lunch. 

14 Why don't we think about it a little bit 

15 more as we go through and try to at least get through 

16 the first pass of this term sheet by the time we 

17 break for lunch, and then maybe we can come back and 

18 recaucus after lunch, and people have thought about 

19 it a little more? 

20 I do need to make clear someone that if we 

21 allow proxies, proxies would count towards quorum. 

22 Alternates would also count towards quorum, if we 
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1 ultimately agree to that. I think that's okay. Oh, 

2 one other thing. Does everyone think they can get 

3 their alternates to Wade by May 13th? So that's a 

4 week from today. Can everyone declare an alternate 

5 by May 13th? Is that a reasonable date? Wade. 

6 MALE PARTICIPANT: Wade Boswell. 

7 (Off mic comment.) 

8 MR. BOSWELL: It's on the slide. 

9 MS. ARMSTRONG: So we'll start an email 

10 list. We'll talk about that. But we'll start an 

11 email team with everyone, so you'll have everyone's, 

12 but especially his. His will be important. So 

13 that's okay, keep moving along Ashley? 

14 MALE PARTICIPANT: Yes. 

15 MS. ARMSTRONG: So we talked about 

16 consensus. We're still talking -- we're still 

17 thinking four or five. So let's talk about subgroups 

18 for a minute. The idea behind subgroups is that you 

19 can break into many groups from the larger working 

20 group, to tackle certain specific issues. 

21 The only thing that matters here is that 

22 A, do we all agree that subgroups should be allowed? 
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1 In other words, you can form subgroups. Subgroups 

2 are allowed to discuss particular issues. I do 

3 believe they're required to come back and brief the 

4 actual working group, and the subgroups may not in 

5 and of themselves vote. 

6 So you can work, you can tackle, you can 

7 try to come up with a solution to propose to the full 

8 working group. But ultimately the full working group 

9 has to vote on it. So do we all agree on the idea 

10 behind subgroups? Yes, and do we think that 

11 subgroups should be limited in the number of people 

12 that can be part of them? No, just leave them 

13 open-ended. 

14 So if the working group wants to be 

15 subgroup, it could be? I mean then it's unnecessary 

16 to have. 

17 (Off mic comment.) 

18 MS. ARMSTRONG: I understand if you don't 

19 want to meet with me. I get it. It's not a personal 

20 thing, Wade. I get it. That's what you're going 

21 for, everyone but Ashley, like on the playground. 

22 (Laughter.) 
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1 MS. ARMSTRONG: Just kidding. So no 

2 limit. 

3 MS. PETRILLO-GROH: Ashley, what was the 

4 working group's thinking -- what was the ULE working 

5 group's thinking behind 15 people? 

6 MS. ARMSTRONG: I think they thought that 

7 if you're going to have a subgroup, that it needs -- 

8 usually you form subgroups because the working group 

9 in and of itself, with the large committee, can't 

10 actually come to an agreement or come to ideas. 

11 It needed to be small enough that it's 

12 manageable, so that people could actually have a 

13 fruitful discussion and come up with a potential 

14 solution for the working group. So that would be my 

15 guess. I wasn't actually at the discussion, but 

16 that's what we've done previously, kind of made them 

17 smaller. 

18 Sometimes we break out in multiple 

19 subgroups at the same time. But usually it's because 

20 the larger working group just can't -- we're kind of 

21 at an impasse and we need to take a time out. 

22 MS. PETRILLO-GROH: I wouldn't have a 
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1 problem to have them with a limit on the number of 

2 people for a subgroup. 

3 MR. BOSWELL: And is there a number that 

4 you would have in mind? 

5 MS. PETRILLO-GROH: Fifteen sounds 

6 reasonable. 

7 MR. BOSWELL: Mike. 

8 (Off mic comment.) 

9 MR. WOLF: Mike Wolf with Greenheck. How 

10 does the subgroup thing work with regard to the 

11 public access, you know, the fact that this meeting 

12 is being recorded and there's a public record? Do 

13 the subgroups fall under those same guidelines? 

14 MR. BOSWELL: The subgroups basically are 

15 not public meetings. I'm speaking. If you have a 

16 different view, if Betsy has a different view. The 

17 subgroups are not public meetings, and so, you know, 

18 I am not the one to really speak to this, because 

19 this is not really a FACA. 

20 But one of the concerns if this were a 

21 FACA as opposed to a working group of the FACA is 

22 that, you know, you couldn't have a kind of subgroup 
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1 of a FACA that constituted a majority of the FACA, 

2 because there would be concerns about that particular 

3 point that you're raising. So Betsy, I don't know if 

4 you want to address this at all. 

5 MS. KOHL: Just by way of background, 

6 we've done these subgroups for pumps, for other of 

7 these meetings, and basically they're technical 

8 discussions, where they get together on some 

9 technical issue and they have data. So the public 

10 wouldn't necessarily -- 

11 MS. ARMSTRONG: I was going to say the 

12 engineer's version of that is that you get in a room, 

13 you talk about technical issues. You're not in the 

14 public meeting, but that's why it's important that 

15 you guys usually come back and report to the 

16 committee what happened, at least in an overview 

17 fashion. 

18 MR. HARTLEIN: So Dan Hartlein. That 

19 reporting back to the main committee or this main 

20 working group, sorry, get my terms right, I'm 

21 assuming that's an obligation. So there is a 

22 disclosure obligation to what the subcommittee is 
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1 doing? 

2 MS. ARMSTRONG: Correct, and then that 

3 part will be on the record. 

4 MR. HARTLEIN: Right, okay. 

5 MS. ARMSTRONG: Yep. So we had a minor 

6 suggestion of limitation, potential limitation, just 

7 so you can keep it at a manageable level, to still 

8 kind of move discussions along. 

9 MR. BOSWELL: Okay, Bill. 

10 MR. SMILEY: Bill Smiley, Trane. Does a 

11 subgroup consist only of committee members, or can 

12 outside parties be called in? I see there's 

13 something there in number two, that DOE could provide 

14 additional appropriate support. But can a 

15 subcommittee call on somebody else to assist? 

16 MS. ARMSTRONG: Do you want them to be 

17 able to? 

18 MR. SMILEY: Right now, I don't see 

19 anything wrong with it. 

20 (Off mic comment.) 

21 MR. SMILEY: It might be some expert on 

22 something that you want to get some help from, 
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1 somebody that's not on the committee or an alternate. 

2 MR. BOSWELL: I mean the language there 

3 now contemplates other individuals. 

4 MS. ARMSTRONG: I'll go with that. 

5 MR. BOSWELL: Mike. 

6 MR. WOLF: I guess -- Mike Wolf from 

7 Greenheck. Just to reinforce Bill's example that 

8 goes through my head is, you know, within AMCA 

9 organization, we refer things back to our engineering 

10 Committee, relative to technical issues. 

11 I would anticipate, you know, given the 

12 technicality of defining a proxy and quorums and 

13 things of that nature, there's going to be a 

14 significant amount of that as we go forward in this 

15 meeting that, you know, we may want to bring in 

16 somebody like the AMCA Engineering Committee, to give 

17 us some guidelines on some of the technicalities we 

18 get into. So that's just an example I can think of 

19 that we might want to do that. 

20 MR. BOSWELL: Laura. 

21 MS. PETRILLO-GROH: Laura Petrillo-Groh 

22 from AHRI. I'm not sure having an entire separate 
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1 technical committee would be appropriate, but as long 

2 as we limit the number of people to 15 individuals, I 

3 think that we would get a representative balance of 

4 relevant experts who could report on the thoughts of 

5 a particular committee from one the stakeholders. 

6 MR. BOSWELL: Other comments? Wade. 

7 MR. SMITH: Well I think just as a 

8 practical matter, if we seek advice outside this 

9 committee from groups not present, large or small, I 

10 mean it's going to happen, right? So and why 

11 shouldn't it? 

12 (Pause.) 

13 MR. BOSWELL: So do people kind of want to 

14 kind of do a temperature check? What I'm hearing is, 

15 you know, it's an issue of the size of the subgroup, 

16 whether that should be limited, or whether or not it 

17 could be the entire committee. Is there another 

18 point of contention there that I'm not picking up? 

19 MS. ARMSTRONG: No, I think that's it. 

20 MR. BOSWELL: Okay. 

21 MS. ARMSTRONG: Wade, can you live with 

22 15? 
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1 MR. SMITH: Fifteen members of the 

2 committee or 15 individuals? 

3 MS. ARMSTRONG: Fifteen members of the 

4 committee. 

5 MR. SMITH: I don't think it matters, to 

6 be truthful so -- 

7 MS. ARMSTRONG: Okay. So I think it's 

8 going to be working group members, and then if you 

9 guys decide to, you need -- like for example if 

10 you're running scenarios for different standard 

11 levels and you want Sanaee (phonetic), who runs our 

12 economic analysis with the issue, she wouldn't count 

13 towards that 15. 

14 MR. SMITH: You want to say instead of 15 

15 people, you want to say 15 working group members? 

16 MS. ARMSTRONG: Yep. Typically, sometimes 

17 these subgroups meet after the full day meetings, or 

18 in the interim between the full day meetings. So 

19 they're not necessarily like everyone doesn't always 

20 want to participate in these, because they're like 

21 extra effort. Kind of like detention but with a 

22 positive spin. That's part of my life. You can tell 
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1 I talk to my kindergartner at home a lot, right? 

2 So here we are, discontinued. If you're 

3 unproductive, the working group may be discontinued. 

4 I don't think there's anything we need to say there. 

5 The deadline is August 6th. You are given three 

6 months, and then it says "unless DOE and the ASRAC 

7 decide to extend the deadline." So that gives the 

8 opportunity. 

9 Every reasonable effort will be made by 

10 everyone here to negotiate a term sheet by then. So 

11 agreement. This is typically where we have some 

12 discussions to be had. "Any agreement reached by the 

13 working group or recommended," I will insert the 

14 appropriate stuff there, "will take form of a written 

15 statement that will be signed by all parties to the 

16 negotiation. 

17 "It is anticipated the agreement will be a 

18 written statement that includes a term sheet 

19 outlining the significant terms of the proposed." So 

20 for this one, it will be proposed rule, and I'm going 

21 to put rules in parentheses because DOE typically 

22 handles test procedures separately from standards. 
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1 So to the extent you do negotiate aspects 

2 of specific test procedures, it may go into different 

3 documents. But it is our intention to adhere to any 

4 of the term sheet that is agreed upon here. 

5 Supporting analysis needed to explain and justify the 

6 agreed terms from the legal, engineering, economic 

7 perspectives. 

8 So in other words, any of the backing 

9 that's provided to this committee ultimately for the 

10 basis of the decision will also be shared with DOE, 

11 to form the basis of the proposed rule. 

12 "DOE staff will be responsible for 

13 translating this term sheet and analysis into the 

14 language of the proposed rule," and I'll put rules 

15 there, "its supporting preamble, a regulatory impact 

16 analysis and all those other appropriate materials 

17 necessary." We okay there? 

18 MR. SMITH: I've got a question. 

19 MS. ARMSTRONG: Sure. 

20 MR. SMILEY: Bill Smiley, Trane. Does the 

21 committee have to approve the resultant from the DOE 

22 translation? 
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1 MS. ARMSTRONG: Not typically. It will be 

2 out for comment but you know, after it's been written 

3 and then gone through our concurrence process here, 

4 it does not go back to the committee for approval 

5 before publication. 

6 So a statement as the basis for the NOPR. 

7 "DOE agrees to use the written statement and any 

8 recommended standards." I'll change that language to 

9 be broader. "As the basis of the NOPR, to the 

10 maximum extent possible, consistent with the agency's 

11 legal obligations." We okay so far? 

12 MR. BOSWELL: Sorry, Wade. 

13 MR. SMITH: Is this a point of the way the 

14 regulation's written, or is it an option that DOE 

15 would consider within your interpretation back to the 

16 committee? 

17 MS. ARMSTRONG: So he wants to know can -- 

18 after we get a concurrence version of the proposed 

19 rule, can the committee review it before it becomes 

20 public legally. We've never done that before, I can 

21 tell you that. 

22 MS. KOHL: Let me check, and we can get 
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1 back to the group after lunch. 

2 MS. ARMSTRONG: So the next one, no to 

3 negative comments. "Each party, except individuals 

4 that have previously voted negatively on the final 

5 agreement, agrees not to file negative comments or 

6 speak negatively on the proposed -- on all aspects of 

7 the proposed rules, or its preamble, to the extent 

8 they have the same substance and effect as the term 

9 sheet." That's why we're all here. Do you agree to 

10 that? 

11 So it basically says -- okay. So it 

12 basically says that if DOE implements the term sheet 

13 in the proposed rule, you agree to not file public 

14 comments or speak negatively about not file negative 

15 public comments or speak negatively about the 

16 proposed rule, once it's put out for comment. 

17 MR. FINE: If you have voted against it in 

18 the committee. 

19 MS. ARMSTRONG: No, if you've voted for 

20 it. 

21 MR. FINE: If you have voted for it. I'm 

22 sorry. 
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1 MS. ARMSTRONG: You may still file 

2 negative comments if you voted against it. 

3 MALE PARTICIPANT: If you voted for it, 

4 you can't say anything about it? 

5 MS. ARMSTRONG: Correct, that. 

6 MALE PARTICIPANT: If you voted against 

7 it, you're treated like a normal public person (off 

8 mic). 

9 MR. BOSWELL: So Meg. 

10 MS. WALTNER: And just to clarify, if you 

11 abstain from the final vote for any reason, you would 

12 also are held to filing no negative comments. You 

13 have to vote negatively to be able to file those. 

14 MR. BOSWELL: The way this is worded, an 

15 abstention is part of consensus, which is the way the 

16 voting -- I think actually Gary was first. 

17 MR. FERNSTROM: So Ashley, this is Gary. 

18 I have a comment with respect to the idea of 

19 reviewing the Notice of Proposed Rulemaking before 

20 DOE holds the meeting, and I understand this is never 

21 done before, but have -- never been done before. 

22 But having participated in the Pumps 
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1 Working Group and rulemaking, there were a couple of 

2 surprises in the rulemaking where DOE had added 

3 enhancements for clarification that various interest 

4 groups that participated in the working group had 

5 comment on, and we can either do that at the public 

6 meeting. 

7 Or if we had had the opportunity to look 

8 at it ahead of time, maybe these glitches, for lack 

9 of a better term, could have been addressed, and it 

10 would have made the public meeting go quicker and 

11 easier. So if it's -- 

12 MS. ARMSTRONG: So I'm going to -- go 

13 ahead. 

14 MR. FERNSTROM: I was going to say if it's 

15 possible, I think in terms of process there might be 

16 some benefit to doing that. 

17 MS. ARMSTRONG: So substantively I have an 

18 issue with them being called glitches, because in my 

19 opinion, there were things that were not addressed by 

20 the working group itself, at least specifically but 

21 came up during review. So it wasn't like DOE -- I 

22 just don't want it to be thought that DOE didn't 
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1 implement that term sheet fully, because we did. 

2 MR. FERNSTROM: No, no, no. This is Gary. 

3 I didn't mean the term "glitches" negatively, you 

4 know. These are needed enhancements, in my opinion. 

5 It's just they created some loose ends that might 

6 have merited tying down a little bit. 

7 MS. KOHL: So this is Betsy Kohl, DOE GC. 

8 I think there's two issues going on here. One is a 

9 legal issue that we -- in our general rulemaking 

10 process, do not let certain segments of the public 

11 see a proposed rule before it's issued. Obviously, 

12 that's inappropriate. 

13 You may be in a different position, 

14 because you're the committee that developed the rule. 

15 That I need to check into. But from a process 

16 perspective, having this group kind of get to have 

17 some time to look at this thing and it would be like 

18 this little piece, right? It will just get to be 

19 administratively difficult, right? 

20 And I think -- just a second -- having to 

21 issue the proposed rule and then commenting on these 

22 clarifications, right, I mean that's how the process 
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1 works, right? That's why we have a proposed rule. 

2 We take comment and, you know, consider those 

3 comments in developing the final rule. So I don't 

4 necessarily see that that was a process issue with 

5 the pumps rule, but -- 

6 MR. FERNSTROM: Okay. So this is Gary 

7 responding. I agree. Maybe the quicker more 

8 expeditious process is just to do the NOPR. 

9 MR. BOSWELL: So Dan, you had a comment? 

10 MR. HARTLEIN: Yeah. Dan Hartlein. Just 

11 one quick question. Does this obligate -- we're all 

12 representing some organization. Does this obligation 

13 carry to the individual or does it carry to the 

14 organization that we represent? 

15 MS. ARMSTRONG: Organization. 

16 MR. BOSWELL: Yes. 

17 MR. ROY: Aniruddh Roy, Goodman. So I 

18 have a question on the adverse comment, if you vote 

19 yes. So right now, the way regulations.gov is 

20 structured, that comment just becomes public when 

21 someone uploads this, uploads it. 

22 So should we add something in there which, 
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1 you know, outlines the repercussions of uploading 

2 such a comment, in case someone chooses to do that? 

3 Because right now, that cannot be avoided, the way 

4 the docket -- 

5 MS. ARMSTRONG: That's the whole point of 

6 the term sheet. You're agreeing to this in good 

7 faith, right, that you agree that as a responsible 

8 person, on behalf of your organization, you're 

9 agreeing to these terms to be here. If you can't 

10 agree to these terms and to not file those comments, 

11 then perhaps you need to reconsider your 

12 participation in our working group. 

13 MALE PARTICIPANT: Or vote no. 

14 MS. ARMSTRONG: Or vote no. But not all 

15 the time. 

16 MR. BOSWELL: Mark. 

17 MR. FLY: Mark Fly. I'm sure this would 

18 never happen, but should we -- I would think that we 

19 would want the right to make a comment if we feel 

20 like you did not implement the term sheet, whatever 

21 we agreed to on this, in the spirit of the -- 

22 MS. ARMSTRONG: I think that's allowed, 
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1 right, because it says "to the extent DOE has the 

2 same substance and effect as the term sheet," you 

3 can't do it. That's what's -- you probably can't see 

4 because there's a big column in front of you. 

5 MR. FLY: Yes, that's right. 

6 MS. ARMSTRONG: For which I apologize. 

7 But feel free to move around. We can also play the 

8 game of whoever gets the seats at the table and they 

9 get back from lunch first gets them. 

10 (Off mic comments.) 

11 MS. ARMSTRONG: I'm trying to have a 

12 little fun with this. We're going to be spending a 

13 lot of time together. 

14 MR. FLY: Well, I don't have any problem 

15 with actually any of these paragraphs or their 

16 implications. But they do encourage no votes, right. 

17 So if you're at the table and you say well, maybe I 

18 need time to think about it. I might want to -- I 

19 may not be comfortable with this. It encourages a no 

20 vote. I don't think that's wrong because it causes 

21 people to think pretty carefully about their 

22 position. 
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1 But it does favor my thinking about what 

2 we define as consensus, because this section 

3 encourages people to vote no, which suggests that a 

4 higher threshold, accepting a number of no votes, if 

5 you know what I mean? I don't know how to word it. 

6 MS. ARMSTRONG: I understand where you're 

7 going. 

8 MS. PETRILLO-GROH: Well, you bring up an 

9 interesting -- this Laura Petrillo-Groh from AHRI. 

10 You bring up an interesting point. Is voting no on a 

11 specific provision what we're after, or is voting no 

12 on the final agreement? 

13 MALE PARTICIPANT: That's a good question. 

14 MS. PETRILLO-GROH: I think the way it's 

15 written up there, it's final agreement. 

16 MALE PARTICIPANT: Yes. 

17 MS. PETRILLO-GROH: So those who don't 

18 agree with a specific provision in the agreement, 

19 still can't comment negatively on it, on the overall 

20 agreement. 

21 MS. ARMSTRONG: You voted for the term 

22 sheet. 
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1 MS. PETRILLO-GROH: Ultimately you vote 

2 for the term sheet. Okay. Just wanted to clarify. 

3 MS. ARMSTRONG: So I mean the next two 

4 lines follow with no adverse action in support and no 

5 challenge. No challenge is the court part of it. No 

6 adverse means you agree not to take any action to 

7 inhibit the adoption of this, whether that be through 

8 other mechanisms or otherwise. 

9 This is fairly standard language for most 

10 of our negotiating committees. That's one of the 

11 things. I think that you're seeing the things that 

12 benefit, really benefit DOE from -- to getting 

13 parties at the table and negotiating these, so that 

14 they can go through smoothly. 

15 Five, a facilitator. This just basically 

16 says if Wade does a good job, we'll keep him. If 

17 Wade doesn't do a good job, then you know -- 

18 MR. BOSWELL: Then I do my other work. 

19 MS. ARMSTRONG: We're sending him back to 

20 OHA. 

21 MR. SMITH: This is Wade Smith. Let the 

22 record show that she means Wade at the farther end of 
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1 the table. 

2 (Laughter.) 

3 MS. ARMSTRONG: So meetings. We're going 

4 to conduct them as we are required to by law, under 

5 all those appropriate things. Negotiation sessions 

6 will be announced in the Federal Register prior to 

7 the meeting, and it will always be open to the 

8 public. So this is a question for you guys to 

9 consider. We've had -- we are going to post 

10 transcripts. We've had other committees say, well 

11 you know, we'd like to see a Cliff Notes outline of 

12 what happened in the meeting or at least what topics. 

13 Sometimes that may take the form of me 

14 standing up here typing as we go along. But it's 

15 kind of like our working drafts of things. They 

16 would like -- the committee would like those 

17 available to them, because sometimes the transcript 

18 takes a little while. So it may not be available, 

19 you know, before the next meeting, just depending on 

20 how close we set those meeting schedules. 

21 So is that something that this working 

22 group would be interested in, that at the end of each 
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1 meeting, you would have either, you know, within a 

2 couple of days you would have some type of summary, 

3 whether it be the PowerPoint is enough. We use for 

4 discussion purposes or some type of outline of what 

5 we discussed and kind of the high level topics that 

6 will be discussed for the next meeting, just so you 

7 can kind of know where we are. 

8 MR. BOSWELL: Laura. 

9 MS. PETRILLO-GROH: Laura Petrillo-Groh, 

10 AHRI. I thought DOE and DOE contractors did a great 

11 job of providing edited versions of the PowerPoint 

12 after each of the pumps rulemaking, and it was very 

13 important to keeping the progress on that committee 

14 moving forward. 

15 I would request that that be made 

16 available, the general outline could be -- doesn't 

17 have to be the edited slides, but showing what 

18 directions the committee took, considered taking and 

19 important points of discussion within 48 hours of the 

20 end of the meeting. 

21 MR. BOSWELL: Gary. 

22 MR. FERNSTROM: This is Gary. So whether 
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1 it's the PowerPoint or some condensed Word document, 

2 I would find a summary very helpful, because I wind 

3 up writing one at the end of each meeting anyway. I 

4 wouldn't be surprised if any of the rest of us do. 

5 If you were to do it, it would make it a lot easier 

6 for all the rest of us. 

7 MS. ARMSTRONG: Okay. I think that will 

8 take care of it. 48 hours seems reasonable. 

9 MR. BOSWELL: Okay. I have a question of 

10 Ashley. Since you're talking about 48 hours, are you 

11 talking about business days really because -- 

12 MS. ARMSTRONG: I put this in days. Do 

13 you want me to put "business days"? 

14 MR. BOSWELL: I'm concerned about a 

15 meeting ending on Friday. 

16 MS. ARMSTRONG: I got it. 

17 MR. BOSWELL: So let's talk about -- so 

18 we've gotten through the ground rules. Yeah, 

19 congratulations. Good job. We have at least a rough 

20 version of the ground rules. Do you want to talk 

21 about schedule before we break for lunch, because 

22 it's only 11:45? Or do you want to, you know, take a 
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1 break and caucus about these ground rules, since we 

2 have a couple of lingering issues? What exactly 

3 would you like to do now? 

4 VOICES: The scheduling. 

5 MS. ARMSTRONG: Okay. I did that. I'll 

6 explain what I did. Okay. So potential proposed 

7 schedule, and obviously these dates are subject to 

8 discussion. We did have a request from some of the 

9 commercial HVAC manufacturers. They're also 

10 negotiating at the same time, and they've set their 

11 schedule. 

12 They've asked that to the extent that June 

13 dates could be harmonized, either you know, before or 

14 after those meetings, that those manufacturers that 

15 are participating in both would appreciate it, 

16 because then they could just extend their stay to a 

17 four-day stay in D.C. 

18 So where you see the two June dates, 

19 that's what I've done. 11th and 12th piggybacks on 

20 their meetings, as does the 25th and 26th. I will 

21 get some available dates here in a second. But can 

22 everyone -- does everyone have their calendars 
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1 available roughly? 

2 MS. PETRILLO-GROH: This was the ULE 

3 schedule? 

4 MS. ARMSTRONG: Well, I'm about to be told 

5 it wasn't. But John told me it was. 

6 MS. WALTNER: This is Meg Waltner from 

7 NRDC. As I'm also on that committee, I second the 

8 desire to align the dates if possible. But our last 

9 date, that meeting is -- 

10 (Off mic comment.) 

11 MS. WALTNER: By June 15th. So I don't 

12 know why the -- 

13 MALE PARTICIPANT: This is the potential 

14 proposed schedule. 

15 MS. WALTNER: The 25th and 26th doesn't 

16 align with D.C. 

17 MS. MAUER: And this is Joanna. This 

18 issue may only apply to me, but I'm on a different 

19 working groups where we've scheduled meetings for 

20 June 11th and 12th for Miscellaneous Refrigeration. 

21 I don't know if that's also an issue for DOE or not. 

22 MS. ARMSTRONG: Yeah, these are proposed 
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1 dates. So I think we need a May one. I don't think 

2 we want to wait until June 11th. We may need either 

3 one set of May ones or an early June one, a May one 

4 and a June one. It's really up to you guys how you 

5 want to do this, or when you want to come together 

6 next. 

7 To your point, the only way to piggyback 

8 off that ULE is to do 11th and 12th for us. So I 

9 don't know how we want to handle that. Let's with 

10 May first. When do you guys actually want to meet 

11 again? Is two weeks good? Okay. Let me pull up 

12 DOE's rooms. 

13 MR. HARTLEIN: A quick question to this 

14 schedule. This is Dan Hartlein. Is it always a 

15 two-day session or can it be extended, because of 

16 travel costs and the difficulty of getting here. 

17 MS. ARMSTRONG: We can do it however you 

18 want. We can do one day, we can do two day, we can 

19 do three day, we can do two months. However you'd 

20 like to spend your time, it's really up to you guys. 

21 MR. HARTLEIN: Well, two months is a 

22 little long. 
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1 MR. FERNSTROM: So this is Gary. A 

2 thought on that. One day probably isn't the most 

3 productive. Two days give us a good shot at it. 

4 Three days, at least I get to be pretty tired by the 

5 third day. So that's why we like -- 

6 (Off mic comments.) 

7 (Laughter.) 

8 MR. FERNSTROM: Very good Wade. 

9 MS. ARMSTRONG: I will say one caveat with 

10 three day meetings. If you need DOE to rerun 

11 analyses in between meetings, you might want to give 

12 us some time. So if you're asking us to completely 

13 revise the LCC or the shipments analysis because you 

14 want to see what your new assumptions or impacts are, 

15 Sanaee is lovely, but she probably wants more than 12 

16 hours overnight to do it. 

17 MR. BOSWELL: Meg, did you still have a 

18 comment? Okay. Mark. 

19 MR. FLY: Yes. Part of it is also 

20 depending on what time we break up on the second day. 

21 Some of us it takes, you know, I can't be here before 

22 noon, and if I don't leave this building by three 
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1 o'clock, I can't get home that night. 

2 So a lot of us are traveling. I know at 

3 the first rulemaking that I was involved with, we a 

4 lot of times broke at three o'clock in the afternoon, 

5 and then a lot of people could get home that evening. 

6 Which turns it from a three day out of the office -- 

7 I mean to a three day instead of a four day out of 

8 the office trip. 

9 MR. BOSWELL: Gary. 

10 MS. ARMSTRONG: So -- 

11 MR. BOSWELL: Bill. 

12 MR. SMILEY: Bill Smiley, Trane. If you 

13 can't get here before noon, can everybody get here 

14 before noon, so you don't have to come in the day 

15 before. We could start a meeting like after lunch, 

16 and then go all the next day and then go the morning 

17 of the third day, and then you only blow three whole 

18 days away from work rather than four. 

19 MALE PARTICIPANT: Yeah, I like that a 

20 lot. 

21 MR. FERNSTROM: So this is Gary. For 

22 those of us coming in from the west coast, starting 
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1 after lunch doesn't cut it for us. 

2 MR. SMILEY: Well but you have to come in 

3 the day before on the plane. 

4 MR. FERNSTROM: Yeah. I have to come in 

5 the day before. So I, you know, I could equally well 

6 start at nine or noon it doesn't matter. But I still 

7 have to come in the day before. 

8 MS. ARMSTRONG: All right. So I heard the 

9 week of the 18th mentioned for our next get-together. 

10 What do you guys think about the 18th and 19th? 18th 

11 is a Monday. 

12 Do we think Mondays are -- do people 

13 really want to travel on Sundays, or do we want to do 

14 19th and 20th? The following weekend is Memorial 

15 Day, so if anyone has plans for Memorial Day, I will 

16 acknowledge that Memorial Day is the 25th. 

17 MS. WALNHER: So the commercial AC meeting 

18 is the 20th and 21st. So my preference would be for 

19 the 18th and 19th personally. 

20 MR. BOSWELL: Steve. 

21 MR. WIGGINS: I have a formal commitment 

22 over the National Institute of Building and Science. 
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1 I've got a committee meeting the afternoon of the 

2 19th. If we're going to break at noon the second 

3 day, I could do that, because it's right there. 

4 MS. ARMSTRONG: Okay. So what I'm hearing 

5 is how about 18th starting at nine, and the 19th 

6 maybe either ending at noon or ending a little later, 

7 even if he misses like an hour of it or two? 

8 MALE PARTICIPANT: We'll take care of you, 

9 Tom. 

10 MR. WIGGINS: That's what I'm afraid of. 

11 MALE PARTICIPANT: We're going to fight 

12 over your vote. 

13 MS. ARMSTRONG: Okay. We have one person 

14 not available that week. 

15 MR. SMITH: Ashley, we have an AMCA 

16 webinar for our membership on the 19th, and I believe 

17 it's at 11:00 a.m. Central Time. So I kind of -- 

18 it's -- 

19 MS. ARMSTRONG: So you're asking me -- 

20 MR. SMITH: We would have to change it. 

21 MS. ARMSTRONG: Reserve a conference room 

22 so you could give your webinar here? 
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1 MR. SMITH: Yeah. We would move it, 

2 because I mean if it's in here. But I mean if it 

3 would be possible to start -- well, I didn't -- I 

4 wasn't listening very carefully to what everybody 

5 else said. I know you've got some other activities, 

6 so I think we have a little bit of flexibility, but 

7 it would require us to change it, that's all. 

8 MS. ARMSTRONG: So let's raise our thumbs. 

9 How many people cannot make at all the 18th or 19th? 

10 (Show of thumbs.) 

11 MS. ARMSTRONG: How many people's 

12 alternate cannot make the 18th or the 19th? 

13 (Show of thumbs.) 

14 MS. ARMSTRONG: Can we live with the 18th 

15 and 19th as our next? All right. 

16 MR. SMITH: So is this coming the night 

17 before? 

18 MALE PARTICIPANT: If we're starting at 

19 9:00 a.m., and then we shut down at 3:00, if that's 

20 what we're doing. 

21 MS. ARMSTRONG: So you want me to shut it 

22 at 3:00, or do we want to wrap it up earlier? 
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1 MR. SMITH: 3:00 at the latest. 

2 MS. PETRILLO-GROH: I propose the second 

3 day 8:30 to 3:00. 

4 (Off mic comments.) 

5 MS. ARMSTRONG: So we can do 9 to 5, and 

6 then on the 19th 8:30 to 3:00? 

7 MS. PETRILLO-GROH: And if we lose quorum 

8 at 2:30, then so be it. 

9 MALE PARTICIPANT: Does that give us 

10 enough time to do everything we want to do, or we'll 

11 just go as far as we can? 

12 MS. ARMSTRONG: We'll go as far as we can. 

13 MALE PARTICIPANT: Okay. 

14 MS. ARMSTRONG: Some days we'll be ahead; 

15 some days we might be a little behind, but this was 

16 my best guess. 

17 MR. SMITH: So this is Wade Smith. So if 

18 in tomorrow's negotiating session we make an 

19 assignment that requires a lot of homework in 

20 between, I guess it just won't be ready in time for 

21 the 18th, and then we just pick it up on the 

22 following day. Is that -- 
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1 MS. ARMSTRONG: I think it just depends on 

2 what it is. If it's homework that's really 

3 time-intensive and you can't have done, then that's 

4 something you should state. If we need -- we'll 

5 revisit this at the end of tomorrow, just to make 

6 sure before we lock down everything given where we 

7 are, and what needs to be done. 

8 MR. SMITH: That's a good idea. 

9 MS. ARMSTRONG: What about June 11th and 

10 12th. Who can't make June 11th and 12th? Oh, do you 

11 want to say something before we move off of the 19th? 

12 MR. SMILEY: Yeah, Bill Smiley. Are these 

13 -- is this the order we want to address things? 

14 MS. ARMSTRONG: This is -- we don't have 

15 to. We can talk about that. Let's see how far we 

16 get tomorrow, and we'll pick our discussion. In DOE 

17 world, this is the order for which things kind of 

18 progress. Kind of have to have one before you get to 

19 the other. But it's flexible. It's really up to us. 

20 MALE PARTICIPANT: Because that may not be 

21 enough to do scope and (off mic). 

22 MS. ARMSTRONG: I figured we'd get done -- 
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1 MALE PARTICIPANT: We'll just go with it. 

2 MS. ARMSTRONG: We'll go with it. 

3 MALE PARTICIPANT: Gotcha. 

4 MS. ARMSTRONG: So anyone cannot make the 

5 11th and 12th? 

6 (Show of thumbs.) 

7 MS. ARMSTRONG: Anyone who's alternate 

8 cannot make the 11th and 12th? 

9 (Show of thumbs.) 

10 MS. ARMSTRONG: Do we want to try to keep 

11 the 11th and 12th? 

12 MALE PARTICIPANT: I can go any time (off 

13 mic). 

14 MS. ARMSTRONG: Okay. What about June 

15 25th and 26th? 

16 MR. FERNSTROM: This is Gary. That's a 

17 problem for me. 

18 MS. ARMSTRONG: Okay. That whole week? 

19 MR. FERNSTROM: No, just the end of the 

20 week. The first of the week would be okay. 

21 MALE PARTICIPANT: That backs up to ASHRAE. 

22 MR. FERNSTROM: This is Gary. When you 
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1 say it backs up to ASHRAE, which direction? The first 

2 of the week? 

3 MALE PARTICIPANT: The end of the week. 

4 (Whereupon, a luncheon recess was taken.) 

5

6

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8

9

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

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18

19

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22
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1 A F T E R N O O N S E S S I O N 

2 MS. ARMSTRONG: All right. We're going on 

3 the record. Okay. I'm going to go right to -- back 

4 to a couple of issues. One is go ahead and talk 

5 again about proxy voting. So I think at lunch time, 

6 so first let's hear your thoughts on proxy voting, 

7 and did anybody think more about proxy voting at 

8 lunch, and does anybody have any formal opinions on 

9 that? 

10 MR. BOSWELL: Bill. 

11 MR. SMILEY: Yeah, this is Bill Smiley. I 

12 still stand by what I said earlier today, and I think 

13 the original wording that was in here is what we 

14 should go with, the proxy voting is not permitted 

15 unless there's some extenuating situation that the 

16 Committee agrees is a sensible sort of a proxy vote. 

17 MS. ARMSTRONG: Does anybody else want to 

18 say anything? 

19 MS. JAKOBS: This is Diane Jakobs. I 

20 agree that proxy voting should not be permitted. My 

21 experience it's like everyone is familiar with, you 

22 know, we've been discussing things for a while and we 
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1 know where the issues are. I don't think this is 

2 appropriate. 

3 MR. FERNSTROM: This is Gary. I agree 

4 with you. 

5 MR. BOSWELL: Okay. When I mentioned that 

6 Diane was on the phone, I did mention that she was 

7 the ASRAC committee members that are on this 

8 committee, and the other, I mean Ashley is also an 

9 ASRAC member, as is -- 

10 MS. ARMSTRONG: Deborah Miller. 

11 MR. BOSWELL: Deborah Miller, who is ill 

12 today. 

13 MR. HAUER: Armin Hauer. I remain very 

14 much for the proxy voting, so that a committee member 

15 could take my proxy, because the other way around, if 

16 I send in an alternate, my alternate will never be 

17 sufficiently informed, and it makes the committee 

18 go-around and basically reiterate what has been said 

19 before, in order to inform that alternate. 

20 MS. PETRILLO-GROH: You might advise your 

21 alternate to seek counsel from a particular committee 

22 member. 
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1 MS. ARMSTRONG: Yeah. So I'm going to 

2 bring up -- so DOE caucused a little bit about proxy 

3 voting, because in the past, we have not allowed -- 

4 we have not permitted proxy voting in all our other 

5 working groups. I think it gets to the heart of 

6 really why we're all here, and the integrity of 

7 process. 

8 You're really not voting just for you, 

9 right. You're here to negotiate in good faith; 

10 you're here to -- you're here to provide your 

11 expertise and your knowledge and your background and 

12 share that for which you applied for the committee 

13 with the entire group. 

14 I think DOE has some concerns with proxy 

15 voting. I don't know that it's legally prohibited, 

16 but it does run, I would say, right up against that 

17 fine line about although this is really the intent of 

18 the Negotiating Rulemaking Act. If you think proxy 

19 voting is something you're going to need often, it's 

20 really, I think, more of a question about is this 

21 committee a right fit for you at this point. 

22 And so I think that DOE would be far more 
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1 comfortable with proxy voting not being permitted, as 

2 we have before. But I'd like to open it up to 

3 discussion. 

4 MR. SMITH: In our governance at AMCA, 

5 proxy votes are provided -- I don't think it's 

6 required that we get the approval of the chair. I 

7 don't think so. But I think having the approval of 

8 the chair is probably a reasonable restriction. But 

9 I think not having proxy voting except under really 

10 adverse circumstances, I think that's wrong, because 

11 the people who applied to be on this committee and 

12 who work for their constituent groups, representing 

13 their constituent groups, should not have that vote 

14 taken away because they've missed a meeting for 

15 circumstances in which they'd make a judgment that 

16 they can't afford to do. 

17 I just think it's wrong. I think it's 

18 wrong for the government to override the judgment of 

19 the committee members in this regard. I just think 

20 it's not right. 

21 MR. FERNSTROM: So Wade, this is Gary. 

22 You feel that way irrespective of the fact that we've 
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1 provided for an alternate. 

2 MR. SMITH: Yeah, I do. 

3 MR. BOSWELL: Greg. 

4 MR. WAGNER: Yeah. I mentioned earlier 

5 that I almost didn't make this meeting because of 

6 plane issues, and that very well could arise, you 

7 know, that somebody's not going to make it and their 

8 alternate has other obligations that don't permit 

9 them to be available for that vote. 

10 So I'm thinking it is a right and just 

11 thing that your vote still counts, even though you're 

12 not here. 

13 MS. JAKOBS: This is Diane. I think that 

14 we can make special accommodations to try to notify 

15 you or, you know, you could maybe relay your opinion 

16 by email or do something outside of giving your vote 

17 to someone else. 

18 MR. BOSWELL: Joanna, were you trying to 

19 say something? 

20 MS. MAUER: I was just going to say, I'm 

21 not sure I understand the concerns about travel costs 

22 or, you know, flight issues, given that there is the 
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1 opportunity to participate by webinar, email in a 

2 vote, call in and/or an alternate except in, you 

3 know, very extenuating circumstances. 

4 MR. SMILEY: Yeah. This is Bill 

5 Smiley/Trane. I think you're on this committee 

6 because the committee values your judgment and your 

7 knowledge and desires that you participate in all the 

8 sessions. That requires you to be here. How can you 

9 vote when you're not here, and you don't know what 

10 the discussion is? 

11 You don't even know what's going to be 

12 voted on. So you give a proxy to someone. We miss 

13 out on your input to the discussion, and with the 

14 ability to call in or webinar, you know, that's how 

15 you participate. I think the committee wants you to 

16 participate and be here. If you can give somebody 

17 your proxy shoot, you don't even have to come. 

18 MS. ARMSTRONG: Yeah. I will make one 

19 follow-up point to that one, just go on, and I agree, 

20 and part of that is because you were all picked 

21 because of your specific backgrounds, your interests, 

22 your expertise. But the committee also is required 
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1 to maintain a balance, and if we start shifting 

2 around votes to different people, it may upset that 

3 balance, and we may not actually be abiding by some 

4 of the guidelines that government this committee. 

5 When we had to go through -- when ASRAC 

6 had to consider the names, we also had to consider 

7 the balance, and voting by proxy somewhat does 

8 disrupt that, or it could potentially disrupt that. 

9 I just think we run into some potential issues, you 

10 know, with a lot of our guidelines that are governing 

11 this committee. It gets pretty, I would say hairy 

12 quickly, for lack of a better term. 

13 MR. BOSWELL: Okay. So I think we have 

14 comments from Greg and then from Mark and then from 

15 Wade. 

16 MR. WAGNER: Yeah. My comments about 

17 travel weren't regarding costs. They were with 

18 regard to inability to make the flight. Last night I 

19 was this close from not being here this morning. My 

20 whole morning would have, you know, been in transit 

21 getting here. So there's no way to participate in a 

22 conference call or webinar to be able to make my vote 
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1 count. That's the point of difficulty with not being 

2 available to make a vote and being able to give it as 

3 a proxy. 

4 MS. ARMSTRONG: But wouldn't that -- 

5 wouldn't that be covered under special voting? 

6 MR. WAGNER: Right, and that's what I 

7 think. But there's discussions and votes all 

8 morning. Are you going to have me email later that 

9 vote into you? 

10 MS. ARMSTRONG: You wouldn't know what 

11 they were if you couldn't join, which is exactly his 

12 point of why you shouldn't necessarily maybe be able 

13 to vote. You wouldn't know what discussions were 

14 there. 

15 MR. WAGNER: Well again, you're 

16 disenfranchising me to use, a term that's popular, 

17 and that is my vote would not be available. But and 

18 that's why we put limits on this, so it wouldn't be 

19 given away randomly. 

20 MR. BOSWELL: Mark. 

21 MR. BUBLITZ: Mark Bublitz, New York 

22 Blower Company. I just think there's kind of an air 
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1 of participation in this process is flippant. You 

2 know, I've cleared my schedule. I'm fully committed 

3 to being here. If I'm not here or on a webinar, 

4 there's a real good reason, and I really don't have 

5 an alternate. There's no one who is versed within my 

6 organization on the issues as I am. 

7 Giving my proxy to someone who would even 

8 have remotely like interests I think would be a more 

9 effective execution of the process than handing to an 

10 alternate. Alternate is fine. But I think the terms 

11 you have on the board are reasonable. 

12 MR. BOSWELL: Wade. 

13 MR. SMITH: Yes. Ashley, I think the 

14 argument that you made is an argument in favor of the 

15 wording that's on the board.

16 The ASRAC Committee chose the balance in this

17 group, and if one of us, for circumstances beyond our

18 control, is unable to be present, there is an imbalance 

19 relative to what the intent is. 

20 We don't want that imbalance. We want to 

21 give the people who are sitting around this committee 

22 table a right to vote their positions, and if they 
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1 chose to exercise that right by giving a proxy to 

2 someone who they trust, then it's wrong to create the 

3 imbalance because of circumstances that were beyond 

4 the control of that individual. It's just wrong. 

5 MS. KOHL: So this is Betsy Kohl from DOE 

6 GC. I mean I don't mean to echo and repeat the 

7 points that Ashley made about the need for balance. 

8 I guess I'm not quite sure. We're not trying to deny 

9 anybody votes. We have, I believe in the pumps 

10 context, held votes until the end of the day and sort 

11 of -- 

12 I mean we can make flexibilities if you 

13 miss your flight, something like that. But under 

14 these ground rules, the balance that was selected for 

15 the committee would be cut in half, like 25 to 12, 

16 and that's just really not the spirit of how this 

17 process is supposed to work. It's important for the 

18 integrity of the process to have the full balance, 

19 not half, right? And I guess going to the -- 

20 MR. SMITH: I agree. That's my point. 

21 MS. KOHL: But I'm not -- I mean I don't 

22 think the intent of not permitting proxy voting is to 
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1 deny votes. We can certainly make accommodations as 

2 far as timing, if you miss your flight. I mean those 

3 sorts of things can be worked out. 

4 MR. BOSWELL: Do you have some alternate 

5 wording? 

6 MS. KOHL: Proxy voting is not permitted, 

7 right? I mean the point of it is we have all of 

8 these alternatives. I mean if we want to say proxy 

9 voting is not permitted. The working group will make 

10 every effort to accommodate special circumstances for 

11 voting. It can say something like that. 

12 MR. SMITH: That it is permitted under 

13 special circumstances with a vote. 

14 MS. KOHL: Well then -- 

15 MALE PARTICIPANT: Well, that's not proxy 

16 voting, to say your full votes are (off mic). 

17 MS. ARMSTRONG: Your mic. 

18 MR. BOSWELL: Right, and I guess as the 

19 facilitator, I was going to say and it may be more of 

20 a question. 

21 But my impression is that the process 

22 we're using is really a consensus model, and we've 
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1 talked about taking votes to do a kind of kind of 

2 temperature check versus final votes. I would assume 

3 that ultimately it's the committee that's going to 

4 decide where we're going to move from a temperature 

5 check to a final vote. 

6 So that if people -- because ultimately, I 

7 think, everyone wants to make sure that there's 

8 consensus by the time you reach your term sheet. So 

9 I'm assuming that the consensus model provides some 

10 incentive, to make sure that all -- everyone's vote 

11 is actually taken into consideration. 

12 But I'm just saying it's kind of a comment 

13 on the consensus process that we're using. I don't 

14 know that that really addresses any of the points 

15 that people are advocating. Wade. 

16 MR. SMITH: Okay. So the argument that we 

17 make for proxy is a protection for the influence of 

18 members of this committee who are in the minority. 

19 Gary Fernstrom talked about the fact that there's 

20 only four efficiency advocates here. This is a much 

21 more important protection for one-fourth of his 

22 constituent votes than it is for manufacturers who 
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1 are -- have 11, 12, 13, 14 companies, 14, 15, 16 

2 companies around the table. 

3 So in a sense the argument that we're 

4 advancing here is really to the benefit of the people 

5 who are arguing against it. I don't understand that. 

6 The hard truth is tactically for AMCA members, we'd 

7 be better off with the language that was originally 

8 proposed. But in principle, it just doesn't seem 

9 right. 

10 MR. FERNSTROM: This is Gary. So for my 

11 self-interest point of view, we've got a good 

12 capability to represent ourselves through the use of 

13 alternates. 

14 MS. ARMSTRONG: Sure, we can take a 

15 temperature. Go ahead. 

16 MR. BOSWELL: Okay. So -- 

17 MS. ARMSTRONG: Why don't you take a 

18 temperature on them right now. 

19 MR. BOSWELL: Okay. So I think the 

20 proposal is taking a temperature, and the specific 

21 question would be with respect to going back to the 

22 original language. 
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1 MS. ARMSTRONG: Yes, so the highlight in 

2 yellow. 

3 MR. BOSWELL: The original language is 

4 what Ashley just highlighted. So if we can take a 

5 vote on that with -- 

6 MS. ARMSTRONG: Do you want me to add that 

7 the working group will make accommodations to vote at 

8 the end of the day or something like that. All 

9 accommodations to make sure members can vote. In 

10 other words, instead of voting on every issue, we can 

11 save voting to the end of the day or shift it if we 

12 know someone's going to arrive late. Or make it 

13 earlier if somebody needs to leave early. We can 

14 accommodate that stuff, but that's within the 

15 committee. 

16 MS. PETRILLO-GROH: I mean I don't know if 

17 we need to actually write that down, because there 

18 may be someone who's arriving late, there may be 

19 someone who's leaving early and who do you 

20 accommodate at that point. It becomes a picking 

21 favorites. 

22 MR. BOSWELL: Joanna. 
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1 MS. MAUER: This is Joanna. Just on the 

2 second sentence in yellow about special voting, I'm 

3 wondering if that's unnecessarily, partly because I 

4 think in the attendance paragraph above, it already 

5 says that if attendance in person is not feasible, 

6 attendance in voting may be by telephone or other 

7 electronic means. 

8 But I think the sense is that we want that 

9 to always be permissible, not just in extenuating 

10 circumstances. 

11 MS. ARMSTRONG: Well then we just need 

12 that. 

13 MS. MAUER: That works for me. 

14 MS. ARMSTRONG: You're always allowed at 

15 all times to vote via email or whatever. 

16 MR. BOSWELL: Okay. So can we go back and 

17 actually -- I'm not sure that we finished the vote on 

18 that. So with that language, can I see the -- 

19 (Show of thumbs.) 

20 MR. BOSWELL: One, two. So I'm seeing 

21 four thumbs down on that. 

22 MALE PARTICIPANT: Plus the last sideways. 
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1 MR. BOSWELL: Right. I'm counting sideways 

2 as people willing to live with it and move on at this 

3 point. 

4 MALE PARTICIPANT: You want to vote on the 

5 other one now. 

6 MR. BOSWELL: We haven't defined what 

7 constitutes consensus so -- 

8 MS. JAKOBS: Are you voting? 

9 MR. BOSWELL: Yes. Diane and Louis, if 

10 you're on the phone, I'm sorry. If you wanted to 

11 register a vote, the proposal was a temperature 

12 check. Proxy voting is not permitted. 

13 MS. JAKOBS: I would vote yes. This is 

14 Diane. 

15 MR. BOSWELL: And is Louis on the phone? 

16 (No response.) 

17 MR. BOSWELL: No, okay. He's not, okay. 

18 MS. ARMSTRONG: Okay. So if we turned it 

19 the other way, and instead of the yellow paragraph, 

20 we're talking about just the red language under proxy 

21 voting, where it is permitted with some -- with some 

22 caveats. Let's take the temperature check on that. 
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1 (Show of thumbs.) 

2 MS. ARMSTRONG: So Diane, can you see the 

3 screen? 

4 MS. JAKOBS: Yes. 

5 MS. ARMSTRONG: Can you see where it says 

6 -- 

7 MS. JAKOBS: I see the screen and I vote 

8 no. 

9 MR. BOSWELL: Okay. So we have three -- 

10 MS. ARMSTRONG: You've got one behind you. 

11 MR. BOSWELL: Okay four. 

12 MS. ARMSTRONG: Five. 

13 MR. BOSWELL: Five, okay. 

14 MR. FINE: I missed one over there. It 

15 was a thumbs down here. 

16 MR. BOSWELL: Okay. A head was blocking 

17 that one. Okay. So it sounds like there's more 

18 objections to this paragraph than the first 

19 alternative. 

20 MR. FINE: With no proxy. Shall we just 

21 take a temperature on that? No proxy whatsoever. 

22 MR. BOSWELL: I think that was the first 
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1 one. 

2 MALE PARTICIPANT: We did that already. 

3 That was the first one. 

4 MR. BOSWELL: That was the first one. 

5 MR. FINE: Okay, never mind. 

6 MS. ARMSTRONG: Does anybody want to talk 

7 about it? 

8 MS. JAKOBS: Hello? David Johnson, Berner 

9 International. My only objection to the change was 

10 that you removed any extenuating circumstances from 

11 the original. Even though it was covered above, now 

12 it says that there is no proxy voting, where before 

13 there was language that allowed it, at least under -- 

14 MS. ARMSTRONG: So we thought that -- let 

15 me clarify it. It says "If attendance in person is 

16 not feasible, attendance and voting may be by 

17 telephone or other electronic means." You don't even 

18 need special circumstances. You can always do it. 

19 MS. JAKOBS: Well then maybe some 

20 reference to that above then? I don't know. Unless 

21 it's understood that that would be the reason behind 

22 it, and there would not be any restrictions from 
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1 being able to vote, then I would be okay with that. 

2 MS. JAKOBS: This is Diane. To me, the 

3 proxy voting means that you give your opportunity to 

4 make a decision to the person who holds your proxy. 

5 It's not just a matter of placing your vote. Your 

6 proxy listens to the discussion and makes their own 

7 decision. 

8 MR. BOSWELL: Wade. 

9 MR. SMITH: As I suggested earlier, would 

10 it be acceptable to the members of this committee to 

11 allow proxy voting with the approval of the chair? 

12 By the way, who is the chair? 

13 MS. ARMSTRONG: We don't have a chair. 

14 We're all equals. 

15 MALE PARTICIPANT: The facilitator. 

16 MALE PARTICIPANT: The facilitator. 

17 MR. SMITH: How about with the approval of 

18 the facilitator? 

19 MS. ARMSTRONG: I don't think you can do 

20 that, can you? 

21 MR. SMITH: Or the DOE. 

22 MS. ARMSTRONG: We don't have the 
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1 authority to do that. 

2 MR. SMITH: I mean I think -- I just think 

3 saying there's no proxy voting under any 

4 circumstances is too big of an ask, and we ought to 

5 make an allowance for circumstances, make an 

6 allowance for discretion that area -- where the 

7 discretionary decision is made by someone who 

8 understands the circumstances, and makes the right 

9 decision. 

10 MR. BOSWELL: Let me ask. Ashley, on this 

11 committee do we have a designated federal official? 

12 MS. ARMSTRONG: Yeah. I mean the DFO 

13 would just be the DFO from ASRAC. I 

14 guess it would be John. 

15 MR. BOSWELL: Okay. 

16 MS. ARMSTRONG: That would be my -- 

17 there's not an official one for this committee, but I 

18 think the DFO is from ASRAC. I don't this one 

19 needs a separate DFO. 

20 MR. BOSWELL: I was just wondering, in 

21 terms of -- 

22 MS. ARMSTRONG: And the DOE official on 
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1 the phone. 

2 MR. BOSWELL: --in terms of addressing if 

3 there's somebody that has some authority within the 

4 committee. 

5 MS. ARMSTRONG: I'm not sure. It doesn't 

6 contemplate proxy. That's the whole issue to begin 

7 with. The Negotiated Acts don't actually contemplate 

8 proxy. The intent of them is that you're here as an 

9 individual with your interest, with your set of 

10 attributes. You were selected because of those 

11 things, and us as a whole as a working group have a 

12 balance. 

13 So if people aren't going to be here, 

14 obviously that would mess up the balance. But as 

15 would transferring your vote to someone without the 

16 same attributes and other things and experience that 

17 you bring to the table. So it goes both ways. 

18 MR. BOSWELL: All right. I think Meg. 

19 MS. WALTNER: Yeah. Meg Walthnr. So 

20 maybe a compromise here would be to say proxy voting 

21 is generally not permitted, but may be considered by 

22 the committee under extenuating circumstances on a 
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1 case-by-case basis, and then we would have to vote to 

2 allow a proxy later, but leave that door open for a 

3 specific -- 

4 MS. JAKOBS: So this is Diane. So that 

5 would mean that there would be an occasion where a 

6 person didn't participate in any of the discussion, 

7 and wanted to give their vote to someone else? 

8 MS. WALTNER: That's -- again, you know, 

9 my thinking is if, you know, someone knows I'm not 

10 going to be here at the next meeting and none of my 

11 alternatives are available, you know, at the 

12 preceding meeting we would discuss it as a group, and 

13 vote on whether we would allow them to designate a 

14 proxy then. 

15 MS. KOHL: Well, just as a cautionary 

16 note, does that mean that when we're in the midst of 

17 a technical discussion, that we're going to have this 

18 discussion again? 

19 MALE PARTICIPANT: Yes. 

20 MS. KOHL: I don't know that we want to do 

21 that. 

22 MR. BOSWELL: So what I'm hearing is 
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1 closure on this point would be important in terms of 

2 actually getting to the substance of the rule. Okay 

3 so -- 

4 MR. HARTLEIN: I just want to draw a point 

5 we made earlier again, and that is that we likely as 

6 a company will have two people in this room during 

7 this entire process. The small companies in this 

8 room, not having a proxy, just putting a specific 

9 burden on the small company. It's not a large 

10 company issue -- 

11 MS. ARMSTRONG: Why? They can call in at 

12 any time. 

13 MR. HARTLEIN: The demands of running a 

14 business when there are four people running that 

15 business as far less flexible -- 

16 MS. ARMSTRONG: Then I think that gets to 

17 the question about why are you on this committee. 

18 MR. HARTLEIN: We don't -- 85 percent of 

19 our industry is represented by small companies. I 

20 would think the DOE would want to embrace that. I'm 

21 sorry. I take offense to that question, and I'm a 

22 large company representative. 
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1 MS. KOHL: We do. We don't -- sorry, this 

2 is Betsy Kohl, DOE GC. We don't mean to -- in saying 

3 that maybe another small business who might have a 

4 few more people to participate might be a better fit, 

5 we're not meaning to malign anybody who's got 

6 business constraints as far as participation. 

7 But I mean the committee needs to 

8 function. So you know, if there's another small 

9 business out there who might be a better fit, as 

10 Ashley said, that's not any kind of slight. It's 

11 just to try and get the functioning of the committee 

12 and maintain the integrity of the process. That's 

13 what we're trying to do. 

14 MS. ARMSTRONG: I mean it's hard -- 

15 MR. SMITH: So this is especially 

16 burdensome on small businesses, because they don't 

17 have the personnel. They don't have the operating 

18 budget, and they don't live in Washington, D.C., and 

19 all of that is an extra burden. The accommodation to 

20 that is to -- for them to provide an alternate. 

21 But in the next sentence, it's an alternate from 

22 their company. 
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1 If it were an alternate from a 

2 similarly-sized company in our industry, then that 

3 would be an accommodation that would be helpful. But 

4 what Dan is saying is correct. I'm telling you, 

5 you've never run a small business. It's 

6 unbelievable, and to take the time out every two 

7 weeks to come here two days. 

8 This is not just a travel expense for that 

9 company. It's going to cost them sales, cost them 

10 earnings. These people wake up in the middle of the 

11 night wondering if they're going to make payroll on 

12 Monday morning. I'm telling you, you need to 

13 accommodate them, and to give up their vote because 

14 they're under the pressure of whether or not they 

15 maintain the employment of their 27 employees? It's 

16 not right. 

17 MS. JAKOBS: This is Diane Jakobs, and I 

18 think that each individual should argue for their own 

19 position and situation. It's really nice if you want 

20 to take care of other people, but if they're not 

21 speaking up for themselves, I don't think it's really 

22 helpful. 
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1 MR. SMITH: Diane, my position is to 

2 represent 150 companies, 85 percent of which are 

3 small businesses. 

4 MS. JAKOBS: So you're there. 

5 MR. SMITH: And I'm speaking. Are you 

6 objecting to the fact that I'm speaking on their 

7 behalf? 

8 MS. KOHL: So I don't -- but they're not 

9 trying to attend the meeting I think is the point 

10 she's getting to. If there's a company here who -- 

11 MR. SMITH: There is. They've been 

12 talking. 

13 MR. BOSWELL: I think Nick is the next one 

14 in line to speak. 

15 MALE PARTICIPANT: And Wade doesn't speak 

16 for me. 

17 MR. HOWE: So Nick Howe, Carnes Company. 

18 I am one of those people Wade is talking about. I 

19 don't necessarily run the entire company. But I mean 

20 that would be really cool, but -- 

21 (Off mic comments, laughter.) 

22 MR. HOWE: Yeah. Maybe I could start my 
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1 own business. But he does. I mean he speaks for us. 

2 The idea that just because he doesn't work for my 

3 company means he can't share my opinions is 

4 inaccurate, and generally I side with Wade on this. 

5 It is a big enough deal for a company of my size, 

6 that simply being able to give my proxy to someone in 

7 this room I trust and I think will speak for me is 

8 important. 

9 MS. JAKOBS: David Johnson, Berner 

10 International. I was going to express the same 

11 sentiment, as a person getting a lot of heat from the 

12 sales staff at my company, as to why their lead 

13 engineer is out and will be out for the next four 

14 months or three months, and how come our competition 

15 isn't doing this and why don't they suffer? 

16 But we feel it's important enough to get 

17 out here. But in an effort to move things forward, I 

18 guess I would -- you know, trying to -- I guess my 

19 issue, I guess, with this, just what's on the screen 

20 right now in yellow would be it's more limiting than 

21 what was on the screen before, which had said there 

22 was no proxy vote, but unless there was extenuating 
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1 circumstances. 

2 If that goes back on it, then that 

3 essentially does give the opportunity if whatever 

4 necessary could be done. Because we're going to do 

5 whatever we need to do to be here. 

6 MS. MAUER: This is Joanna. My intention 

7 actually was to make it more accommodating to say 

8 that it doesn't have to be a special circumstance. 

9 MR. HOWE: Well, I don't want to get tied 

10 up in the terminology of it, but I'm still stuck with 

11 it. If it says proxy voting is not permitted and 

12 that's it, and you have to find somewhere else in the 

13 document that says oh well, it can be, I just didn't 

14 think that was clear enough. That's my point. 

15 MS. MAUER: So I don't think the second 

16 sentence was referring to proxy voting. I thought it 

17 was referring to special voting, yeah, by committee 

18 member voting. And so I just wanted to clarify that 

19 actually that wasn't special voting, that any 

20 committee member can vote by email or telephone at 

21 any time, or the alternate. 

22 MR. BOSWELL: You know, perhaps further 
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1 confusing the issue, the discussion that I recall on 

2 that language from the group, and I know that there 

3 are members here that were at that session, is that 

4 in the prior meeting where the original language was 

5 adopted, what they were talking was that in order to 

6 vote, one needed to participate in the discussion, 

7 and that participation would be either in person or 

8 via the webinar, and that in order to -- 

9 If you're voting by calling in a vote or 

10 emailing, if you weren't otherwise participating in 

11 the discussion, that was under extenuating 

12 circumstances. I think that discussion has shifted 

13 here a little bit, and I guess what's what I'm 

14 hearing you say, Joanna, is that you understand the 

15 rules here are somewhat different, so that that might 

16 be more limiting than it was intended to be in the 

17 other context. 

18 MS. ARMSTRONG: Does that do it? 

19 MS. MAUER: This is Joanna. Maybe just 

20 working group members or their alternates. 

21 MS. JAKOBS: In my experience, this is 

22 Diane, that actually being part of the discussion is 
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1 much more important than the actual vote, and there 

2 were times where before they -- even before the 

3 meeting, we knew what we were going to vote on. 

4 MR. SMITH: But you couldn't give your 

5 proxy. Even though you're participating in the 

6 discussion, you couldn't give your proxy. 

7 MS. JAKOBS: But the person theoretically 

8 would already be discussing. You're not adding 

9 anything by giving someone a proxy. 

10 MR. SMITH: Well, this is Wade. 

11 MS. JAKOBS: If it was like an annual 

12 meeting and nobody had talked to each other for a 

13 year and you didn't know where you stood or what your 

14 issues were, I think that makes more sense. But this 

15 is more of a real time discussion. 

16 MR. SMITH: So this is Wade. I think the 

17 perspective that you have is to imagine a 

18 circumstance in which a person is detached from the 

19 proceedings, but yet wants to exercise their right to 

20 vote, and the situation that I'm imagining is where a 

21 person has been participating in the situation, but 

22 due to circumstances is unable to exercise their 
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1 right to vote. 

2 So in one case I see an aggrieved party 

3 who is unfairly treated, and the other case you see a 

4 detached party who isn't participating, but still 

5 wants to influence the outcome. 

6 MS. JAKOBS: There are times in the last 

7 two summers where it would have been good if we could 

8 vote while someone else was in the bathroom. But 

9 that just doesn't happen. 

10 MR. SMITH: Excuse me. 

11 MS. JAKOBS: Ashley wouldn't let us do 

12 that, you know. 

13 MR. FINE: Excuse me, but I think Wade has 

14 the floor. 

15 MR. SMITH: I'm sorry. 

16 MS. JAKOBS: I'm sorry. I can't tell who. 

17 MR. FINE: I know it's difficult. 

18 MS. JAKOBS: Sorry. I was raising my hand 

19 and no one ever calls on me. 

20 MR. SMITH: No. It seems clear that the 

21 circumstances that those who don't want proxy voting 

22 would like to avoid exist, and should not be enabled. 
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1 But it doesn't seem clear to the other folks the 

2 circumstances that those of us who travel in and 

3 travel a lot, and play trains, planes and automobiles 

4 and don't get to places because of circumstances, we 

5 feel aggrieved, because we've participated say in a 

6 discussion that might occur in two weeks from now, 

7 yet the real vote on the subject at hand is going to 

8 occur later on, and for some reason we're not at the 

9 meeting and we can't exercise our rights. This seems 

10 just patently unfair. 

11 So the suggestion, the compromise 

12 suggestion is to allow someone who is active on the 

13 committee to make the decision and to take into 

14 account the circumstances that exist. Not to say 

15 that under any and all circumstances, regardless of 

16 how peculiar they may be, proxy voting is not 

17 allowed. This just seems too draconian. It's just 

18 inevitably going to embrace circumstances that are 

19 not fair to the voter, and not consistent with the 

20 argument for not allowing proxy voting. 

21 MS. JAKOBS: This is Diane. Could I make 

22 a suggestion? So the only time it was really 
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1 important was the negative vote. So would you agree 

2 to a negative proxy vote not counting? 

3 MR. SMITH: No, because that's the one 

4 that counts the most. Why would we take away the one 

5 that counts? 

6 MS. JAKOBS: Because the person isn't 

7 participating. 

8 MR. SMITH: But what if they are 

9 participating? They participated in the meeting and 

10 then they left and there was research done and we 

11 came back together, and that person is not present. 

12 There are circumstances where proxy voting is fair 

13 and appropriate. Would you concede that? 

14 MS. JAKOBS: If you're talking to Diane, 

15 yeah, I think like I described like a yearly meeting. 

16 That makes sense. 

17 MR. SMITH: I'm talking about in the 

18 context of this rulemaking, in this committee. 

19 MS. JAKOBS: No, sorry. 

20 (Off mic comments.) 

21 MR. FLY: I think the compromise position 

22 is to remove the restriction (off mic). They have to 
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1 have another person in that company be the alternate. 

2 I think the compromise position would be to allow us 

3 to name an alternate from a similar company or 

4 similar size company, rather than keep beating the 

5 proxy horse to death. 

6 MR. BOSWELL: Ashley, are you seeing any 

7 reaction that? 

8 MS. ARMSTRONG: So this is Ashley. I'm 

9 almost positive, like 99 percent positive, and if we 

10 can make it 100 percent, that that's not allowed. 

11 MR. FLY: Okay. 

12 MS. ARMSTRONG: Sorry. Like legally not 

13 allowed. 

14 MR. BOSWELL: Nick. 

15 MR. HOWE: So I just want to maybe clear 

16 something up hopefully, and settle some people a 

17 little bit. With regard to what Wade mentioned, 

18 where we had the two scenarios, where either somebody 

19 feels neglected versus somebody's trying to cheat, 

20 since we're talking a lot about small business and I 

21 am that guy, I had made a significant effort, and if 

22 you notice, I did not say I couldn't make a single 
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1 one of the meetings. I will be here. 

2 Right now currently, I am supposed to be 

3 vacationing in California. I flew here just to do 

4 this, and I will do that for the next few meetings. 

5 So I just want everyone to know that I think the case 

6 of somebody who is participating and would like to 

7 vote, but may not get the chance due to circumstances 

8 outside of their control, is more likely. 

9 MR. BOSWELL: Okay. Any other comments on 

10 this point at this time? 

11 (No response.) 

12 MR. BOSWELL: So I'm still not sure that I 

13 understand DOE's position on this, in terms of what 

14 flexibility they believe is there. I don't know if 

15 DOE wants to address that at this point, or if we 

16 want to go on and go back through the ground rules to 

17 find what consensus is, and then move forward, end 

18 with this point. 

19 MS. KOHL: This is Betsy Kohl, DOE GC. I 

20 mean you've heard from the DOE that we're not in 

21 favor of proxy voting for the reasons that have been 

22 discussed. So that I mean I'm -- we don't need to 
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1 repeat that, but that's -- yeah. DOE's position, as 

2 you've heard, for the reasons we've discussed, is 

3 that we do not favor proxy voting, and we have not 

4 had it in any of the other negotiated rulemakings 

5 that we've had to date. 

6 And you know, and we don't necessarily 

7 want to start that here, given all the other 

8 flexibilities that we've discussed. But I mean 

9 that's as firm a statement as I can give. 

10 (Off mic comment.) 

11 MS. KOHL: Betsy Kohl, DOE GC. The 

12 Negotiated Rulemaking Act does not discuss proxy 

13 voting, right. It allows committees to make up their 

14 ground rules. 

15 But for the reasons that we've discussed, 

16 I mean the Negotiated Rulemaking Act does have -- 

17 it's important for committees to be balanced, right, 

18 and then our selection of the working group, right, 

19 basically that the spirit and intent of the Act is to 

20 have that balance and disrupting it by proxy voting 

21 is not something that we favor as a Department from a 

22 legal perspective. 
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1 MALE PARTICIPANT: Or disrupting it by not 

2 allowing (off mic). 

3 MS. ARMSTRONG: So this is Ashley. I 

4 think what you're hearing is that DOE has some 

5 concerns whether it would be upholding all of its 

6 potential legal requirements if it were to allow 

7 proxy voting. It's not expressly prohibited, like I 

8 said at the outset, but there's a real question about 

9 intent there. That's all I -- I mean that's as far 

10 as we can go. 

11 MR. BOSWELL: Donald. 

12 MR. O'NEIL: Would any of this be relieved 

13 by having more than one alternate? 

14 MS. ARMSTRONG: Do small businesses want 

15 more than one alternate? Does that help you at all? 

16 I mean is there ever -- 

17 (Off mic comments.) 

18 MR. SMITH: So just a question for the 

19 small business people in the room. If you had two or 

20 three people standing behind you, the probability 

21 that none of those people are available to 

22 participate on a remote link is diminished and would 
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1 then, I would think, give you more protection. 

2 MR. HOWE: So I would say that yes, I'm 

3 sure we could have somebody available. But my 

4 thought behind that is nobody that would be nearly as 

5 comfortable with this process as the people -- I 

6 would much. 

7 MR. SMITH: Well to accommodate this rule, 

8 right, he could assign someone who has no idea. 

9 MALE PARTICIPANT: I can have a body here 

10 and that's it. 

11 MR. SMITH: You know, as opposed to giving 

12 his vote to someone who he trusts that is actively 

13 participating in the discussion. 

14 MR. BOSWELL: I think Dave was waiting to 

15 speak. 

16 MS. JAKOBS: David Johnson, Berner. I was 

17 just going to ask as far as DOE's position, what's 

18 currently up there in yellow is what you prefer to 

19 see? 

20 MS. ARMSTRONG: I mean I guess, just as a 

21 more fundamental question, you know, if the committee 

22 has the ability to defer votes to a better time 
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1 frame, if the committee members have the ability to 

2 use an alternate or vote electronically or by any -- 

3 or by phone, would this really ever come up? 

4 I mean are we talking for a few hours 

5 about something that will never come up, and given 

6 that this is potentially a legal issue for DOE, it's 

7 a big deal here? 

8 MR. HARTLEIN: Well to support Nick's 

9 position, like he said, I'm also from a small company 

10 where other than being out the one week, I'm 

11 committed to being here, and I'd prefer not to pass 

12 it on to an alternate for those same reasons. 

13 But my only concerns was again, you know, 

14 extenuating circumstances where you, if you're stuck 

15 in an airport and you can't make a call or like you 

16 said, if you did participate, I guess it's curiosity 

17 as to how we would go about getting those votes in or 

18 being able to participate. 

19 But in the effort to move things forward, 

20 I'm hoping that we'll always be able to get to some 

21 sort of consensus. I mean I'm willing to go from a 

22 cold position to, you know, just to move things 
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1 forward. I don't think this will be that -- I don't 

2 expect this to be that big of an issue. 

3 MR. SMITH: Is it possible, I mean I think 

4 I know the answer to this, but I'll ask it anyway. 

5 It is possible that an alternate could be selected 

6 from outside of one's organization? 

7 MS. ARMSTRONG: No. 

8 FEMALE PARTICIPANT: Could you say your 

9 name please for the record? Sorry. Who's asking the 

10 question? 

11 MR. HARTLEIN: Dan Hartlein, sorry. 

12 MR. FINE: I just want us to remember 

13 we've got a lot of work to do here, and you know, we 

14 have a lot of work to do here, and think about how 

15 important -- and it's your decision. I'm not trying 

16 to tell you how to think about this, what to think. 

17 But I'm telling you to think hard about how much 

18 time, effort and whether or not you sort of want to 

19 stop the show over this. 

20 You know, we're going to have a lot 

21 tougher issues to get to, and maybe we can just get 

22 to them later. You know, think about compromising, I 
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1 guess (off mic). 

2 MS. WALTNER: This is Meg. One other 

3 further thought on flexibility in loading is I 

4 believe in the pumps rule, there were certain times 

5 when members did miss meetings and weren't able to 

6 send an alternate, where they added their vote at a 

7 later meeting on an issue. I don't think that came 

8 up in the context of a no vote ever. They were 

9 affirmative votes. 

10 But that's something we could consider 

11 here too, that if you, you know, that you're allowed 

12 to vote, you know. Maybe that we hold votes at the 

13 end of the day or allowed to add your vote later, at 

14 a later meeting. 

15 MR. BOSWELL: Wade. 

16 MR. SMITH: Yeah, listen. For those of us 

17 who are arguing for proxy votes, we've offered I 

18 don't know how many alternate compromises. I can't 

19 understand why those who don't want proxy voting 

20 aren't willing to offer some compromise. Meg has, of 

21 course. I mean let's make a compromise and get past 

22 this. 
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1 MS. ARMSTRONG: We have no opinion on 

2 voting after the fact or if that's what people want 

3 to do. I think that's a non-issue for us. It just 

4 has to be that individual or alternate. 

5 MR. BOSWELL: Mark. 

6 MR. FLY: This is Mark Fly with AAON. At 

7 the end of the day, we're going to come to a single 

8 document, and that's the vote that counts. 

9 MS. ARMSTRONG: Exactly. 

10 MR. FLY: So if you feel like you missed 

11 the meeting and somebody passed you by, somewhere 

12 along the line you always have the opportunity to 

13 object at the end. 

14 MS. ARMSTRONG: Yep. That's a committee 

15 rule. Not only vote on each issue that goes in the 

16 term sheet, but you will vote that entire term sheet 

17 up, which is a summary of everything you've done for 

18 three months. 

19 MR. BOSWELL: Okay. So do we want to take 

20 temperature check on the highlighted language, or do 

21 we want to move back and start making decisions on 

22 the other parts of the ground rules and finish on 
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1 this? Where are people on this? Seeing no reaction, 

2 let's take a temperature gauge on the highlighted 

3 language. On the highlighted language. 

4 (Show of thumbs.) 

5 MS. JAKOBS: This is Diane. I want yes. 

6 MR. BOSWELL: Pardon me? Yes, okay. 

7 MS. JAKOBS: I vote yes. 

8 MR. BOSWELL: I'm not seeing -- I'm seeing 

9 a couple of abstentions, but I'm not seeing any 

10 blocks. Is anyone blocking and I'm not seeing them? 

11 (No response.) 

12 MR. BOSWELL: Okay. So I think we have 

13 language that people are willing to live with, even 

14 if not enthusiastic over, and I think that allows us 

15 to kind of move back into making the decisions on the 

16 rest of the ground rules. 

17 MS. ARMSTRONG: Am I going back up? 

18 MR. BOSWELL: You're going back up. 

19 (Off mic comments.) 

20 MS. ARMSTRONG: Why don't we start with 

21 consensus? So I don't know. Does anybody have any 

22 further discussion at lunch or after lunch about four 
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1 versus five? 

2 (Off mic comment.) 

3 MR. BOSWELL: Any discussion on consensus? 

4 There had been two proposals before lunch. One was 

5 four negative votes and the other was five negative 

6 votes would constitute no consensus. 

7 MR. HARTLEIN: Yeah. I thought about this 

8 quite a bit at lunch, and I'm kind of concerned about 

9 what I heard earlier, and if we're in a 

10 consensus-building process, the idea that I think 

11 what I heard Gary say, and forgive me if I'm putting 

12 words in your mouth. 

13 But what I thought I heard you say was 

14 four like-minded people needed to be on the same 

15 page, and if you didn't have that, you would 

16 disengage from the process. 

17 I'm pretty sure that's what I heard, and I 

18 just -- that kind of bothers me, to the extent that 

19 we're in this consensus-building, and I think to this 

20 point, I think everybody that's been engaged with us 

21 as an industry would agree that we've been pretty 

22 darn open and pretty easy to work with. 
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1 So that troubled me a little bit, that 

2 we're working on this consensus process and that 

3 language was used, and I don't know. Megan, Joanna, 

4 you're both representing that group which he spoke 

5 for. Do you agree with that? Are you on the same 

6 page? 

7 MR. FINE: Wait a second. Do you have an 

8 answer? I mean I thought -- 

9 MS. MAUER: This is Joanna. I should say 

10 that's not what I understood Gary to say, but I'll 

11 let Gary restate what I think he said earlier. 

12 MR. FERNSTROM: Thank you. I had hoped to 

13 have the first opportunity to respond. So I didn't 

14 mean we'd disengage, but what I meant was that our -- 

15 the influence of our vote would be futile. That is 

16 to say if we all agreed and we wanted to block 

17 something, we couldn't, and I would grant you that 

18 we've had a great working relationship, you know, 

19 with the fans industry and everybody associated with 

20 fans. 

21 But as a matter of principle, I would not 

22 want to give up our capacity to block something if we 
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1 needed to. 

2 MR. FINE: And Mark, were you still -- I 

3 think Mark was trying to speak. 

4 MR. FERNSTROM: So I'm in favor of four 

5 votes, just to be clear. 

6 MR. FLY: Well, and I'm in favor of -- 

7 MR. FINE: Identify yourself. 

8 MR. FLY: Mark Fly with AAON. I'm also in 

9 favor of four votes. I'd hate to see it get a lot 

10 bigger. You know, having gone through some of this 

11 process before, I think that there will be a real 

12 effort or should be a real effort to reach 100 

13 percent consensus on everything, because when we 

14 don't, it kind of waters down the message to ASRAC 

15 and the people at DOE. 

16 So I think that should be the goal, and 

17 we've partially failed if we come up with a three to 

18 the rest of us vote. 

19 MS. ARMSTRONG: This is Ashley from DOE. 

20 I completely agree, and that is one of the things 

21 that both ASRAC and DOE will get asked, when it comes 

22 back with a term sheet that says, you know, things 
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1 weren't unanimous. It's why? It's did the committee 

2 try to address their concerns? Did the committee 

3 look for other solutions. 

4 You're absolutely right. That has come 

5 back before, and you've listened to the ASRAC. I 

6 mean you know what's what they ask. And so worse 

7 case scenario, they ask you to try again. So that 

8 really should be what we're going for. In other -- 

9 in many of our other committees, either ongoing now, 

10 it's been two, because they really did want to get to 

11 unanimous. 

12 MR. PERSFUL: This is Trinity with 

13 Clarage Fan Company. I have a hard time seeing, but 

14 previously did you need 12 of 17? Is that what it 

15 was in the pump rulemaking? So that's 70 percent, 

16 and what -- and the 20 out of 25 is 80 percent; 

17 correct? 

18 (Off mic comments.) 

19 MR. PERSFUL: Okay, all right. That's why 

20 I'm asking the question, because I'm sitting back 

21 here. 

22 MS. ARMSTRONG: Want me to make it bigger 
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1 for you? 

2 (Off mic comments.) 

3 MS. ARMSTRONG: Here, let's see what I can 

4 do here. 

5 MALE PARTICIPANT: What was it in the 

6 pumps rulemaking for a consensus? 

7 MS. ARMSTRONG: Three, two. 

8 MR. FERNSTROM: This is Gary. It was -- 

9 MS. ARMSTRONG: Two. 

10 MALE PARTICIPANT: Two out of 12? 

11 MS. ARMSTRONG: Oh not for a quorum. Two 

12 negative votes. 

13 (Off mic comments.) 

14 MS. ARMSTRONG: There was more than 12 

15 people. There were more than 12 people. So can we 

16 take temperatures for the four, because it seems like 

17 -- 

18 MR. BOSWELL: Okay, with the four. 

19 MS. ARMSTRONG: We think the four. 

20 (Show of thumbs.) 

21 MR. BOSWELL: Okay. Looks like four is 

22 something everyone can live with. 
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1 MS. ARMSTRONG: But one. 

2 MR. BOSWELL: Okay, I'm sorry. Where is 

3 -- okay. 

4 MS. JAKOBS: I vote four too. This is 

5 Diane. 

6 MR. BOSWELL: Okay. So -- 

7 MS. ARMSTRONG: I mean technically that 

8 would pass with consensus. 

9 MR. BOSWELL: You definitely need 

10 consensus to change the definition (off mic). 

11 MS. ARMSTRONG: So -- 

12 MR. BOSWELL: Fine, okay. So to those 

13 that weren't hearing the discussion, here what we're 

14 talking about is the definition of consensus, and as 

15 I think I mentioned earlier, the Negotiated 

16 Rulemaking Act requires consensus to be unanimous, 

17 unless the group agrees to less than unanimous 

18 approval for consensus. 

19 So in order to change the definition of 

20 consensus, that vote has to be unanimous. So this 

21 isn't a majority vote. I think to change it from the 

22 statute, we need a unanimous vote, and I think DOE's 
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1 program counsel just agreed with my giving legal 

2 advice. 

3 MS. KOHL: Correct, yes. 

4 MALE PARTICIPANT: What's the statute? 

5 MR. BOSWELL: The statute was in the 

6 slides we went over. 

7 MS. ARMSTRONG: So it's unanimous. 

8 (Simultaneous speaking.) 

9 MS. ARMSTRONG: So in other words we need 

10 Dan to say -- unanimously vote to change the 

11 definition of consensus. Otherwise, we're stuck with 

12 unanimous to negotiate throughout the whole thing. 

13 MS. PETRILLO-GROH: But that's unanimous 

14 of members present when it's a quorum. 

15 MR. FINE: Correct. 

16 MS. ARMSTRONG: Yes. 

17 (Off mic comments.) 

18 MALE PARTICIPANT: Should we vote on that? 

19 MALE PARTICIPANT: Vote on the quorum, and 

20 then you get back to -- 

21 MS. ARMSTRONG: It doesn't matter, because 

22 they can't vote on anything unless they have -- 
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1 MR. FERNSTROM: Well this is Gary. Having 

2 come to the realization that we have to unanimously 

3 agree on consensus, which may be less than unanimity, 

4 maybe we could revote, because we have one individual 

5 that is precluding us from reaching consensus on 

6 this, and they might, in consideration of the fact 

7 that everybody else is either in favor of it or okay 

8 with it, they might change their mind. 

9 MR. BOSWELL: There is a request for a new 

10 temperature check. Any other discussion on that? I 

11 have no objection to taking another temperature 

12 check. But just to -- okay. 

13 So the indication is that the vote would 

14 not change, and for those that were asking the 

15 question about unanimity under the Negotiated 

16 Rulemaking Act, it's on Slide 35, and that talks 

17 about consensus being unanimous concurrence, among 

18 the interests represented on a negotiated rulemaking 

19 committee established under this subchapter, unless 

20 the committee agrees to define the term to mean a 

21 general but not unanimous concurrence. 

22 MR. FERNSTROM: So this is Gary. I'd just 
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1 make the observation that not long ago, we had great 

2 accolades about all getting along together, and it's 

3 an enormous disappointment to me that we don't seem 

4 to be able to do this for the persistence of one 

5 individual. 

6 MS. KOHL: So this is Betsy Kohl, DOE GC, 

7 just for the temperature check. I mean we've heard 

8 this point before about we've got a lot of sticky 

9 issues that are going to come up, and we wouldn't 

10 want to stall and have to report to ASRAC that we're 

11 going to go nowhere on this particular issue. 

12 I mean I guess to the point that was made 

13 about, you know, if everybody's fairly negotiating, 

14 right, I don't know why three to four would 

15 necessarily make a difference, if everybody's making 

16 a good faith effort. I mean right? Oh yeah, four to 

17 five. I guess I just don't see kind of what the 

18 holdup is. 

19 MR. BOSWELL: Laura. 

20 MS. PETRILLO-GROH: I'd like to hear a 

21 little bit more about why, Dan, you're sticking with 

22 five. 
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1 MR. HARTLEIN: It really goes back to 

2 Gary's expression earlier this morning. To me, it 

3 was contradictory to the concept of the consensus 

4 that we're trying to build. And again, I'd love to 

5 hear if I got this wrong. I don't know if everybody 

6 -- anybody else wants to weigh in what I think I 

7 heard. 

8 But what I thought I heard and immediately 

9 reacted to was that his group wants to be able to 

10 vote as a like-minded block and have that influence. 

11 I don't think that's consensus-building. I think 

12 consensus-building is influencing the others who come 

13 to the table to solve a problem with different mind 

14 sets and different perspectives, to come to a common 

15 answer. 

16 So to have that expression, and to have 

17 the number hung on where that like-minded block has 

18 to veto power at that point, to me is contradictory 

19 to what we're trying to accomplish by getting to a 

20 consensus. I was taken aback. I was bothered by 

21 that position. That's my issue. 

22 MS. KOHL: Gary, maybe block is the wrong 
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1 word. Maybe your position is that the other folks 

2 here would need to give a little bit -- 

3 MR. HARTLEIN: I think that was my -- in 

4 fairness, I don't think Gary used the term "block." 

5 That's my description of what I heard so -- 

6 MR. FERNSTROM: This is Gary. So you 

7 heard correctly, and I think correctly represented, I 

8 think, my position and our position. I took three 

9 photographs at lunch. We were all over there at the 

10 DOE cafeteria, and there were three tables. So at my 

11 table, the energy efficiency advocates group, there 

12 were three of us, and I went over to the fans table, 

13 you may not have seen me do it, and I took a picture. 

14 But I didn't count. But there were a huge 

15 number of like-minded individuals, and then I sort of 

16 went over to the, I think one of the primary fan user 

17 groups table, which would be AHRI, and you know, 

18 there were half a dozen or eight people. 

19 So I think fundamentally, we have 

20 different positions that our groups represent, and I 

21 don't think the energy efficiency advocacy community 

22 is willing to put itself in a position where it has 
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1 to get agreement from one of the fundamentally 

2 different industry group positions, in order to reach 

3 consensus. 

4 MR. BOSWELL: Laura. 

5 MS. PETRILLO-GROH: I saw you take the 

6 picture Gary, and I really wish I hadn't been putting 

7 a piece of lettuce in my mouth at the time. So maybe 

8 we can take a group picture later, and then we can, 

9 you know, sign the yearbook of who went where and 

10 represented which committee. 

11 But I completely agree with Gary, that 

12 each -- and I will say voting block does need to 

13 represent the interests, their interests, and if AHRI 

14 could turn around one day together and said you know 

15 what? This is going nowhere. Let's propose we 

16 disband the committee and not have energy efficiency 

17 regulations on fans, because there are five voting 

18 people required to block it, then we'd have to go 

19 home. 

20 I don't think that that would be 

21 acceptable for the energy efficiency advocates. I 

22 think four is a reasonable number for this purpose, 
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1 and I'd hope that we could move on past this point. 

2 We do have a lot to do. 

3 MS. ARMSTRONG: Yeah, and I will say this 

4 is -- oops, I'm sorry. 

5 MR. BOSWELL: I didn't see the order. I 

6 did see Greg's first. 

7 MR. WAGNER: I want to start by a little 

8 editorial. I take a little bit of offense to the 

9 comment about there's only four energy efficiency 

10 advocates here. 

11 I've got a 30 year track record of working 

12 with projects and companies to save energy, and I can 

13 walk you through that if you'd like, and there's a 

14 lot of others in this room who have been doing it for 

15 many years, on real projects for real products and 

16 real customer outcomes that save them energy. 

17 And every time I hear that, it starts from 

18 a bad faith negotiation, as if you're the only one 

19 that cares about saving energy, and rest of us here 

20 don't care. I just -- I don't know where that comes 

21 from, but I just wanted to make sure I got that on 

22 the record, because it bothers me hearing that. 
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1 MR. BOSWELL: Okay, Greg, then Steve and 

2 then Joanna. 

3 (Off mic comments.) 

4 MS. WALTNER: And I'm Meg. So to take a 

5 step back, I mean I completely understand your point 

6 and agree, you know. Our entire experience working 

7 with the fan industry over the past three years has 

8 been a very productive experience, and agree that, 

9 you know, a lot of us have interest in energy 

10 efficiency. 

11 You know, I just also wanted to sort of 

12 push back on yes, you know, the sort of four 

13 efficiency advocate groups fall into a single 

14 category. But that doesn't mean that we all 

15 necessarily agree on everything all the time. Just 

16 at lunch, Gary and I were talking about a non-fans 

17 issue, where we were in violent disagreement, or 

18 maybe violent is too strong a word. 

19 But you know, so it takes us coming 

20 together, you know, to get to that four, and I think, 

21 you know, another important thing to think about here 

22 is we're talking about what it takes to block a 
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1 consensus. I agree with sort of stepping back to the 

2 point that what we're trying to do is reach unanimity 

3 -- that is a hard word to say Ashley -- on as close 

4 to as many issues as we can here. 

5 I think that's our goal, and you know, 

6 we're here to work together with you. You know, I 

7 think moving from four to five from my perspective 

8 would just, you know, feel like, you know, the 

9 environmental efficiency advocates' voice had the 

10 potential to be lost, and that would be my concern. 

11 It's not at our goal is not to work 

12 together on this, and that we don't view others in 

13 this room also as advocates for efficiency. 

14 MR. BOSWELL: Steve. 

15 MR. WIGGINS: Steve Wiggins. I take 

16 offense to the fact that because I happened to sit at 

17 the table with someone from lunch, that I have now 

18 been cast into one of the groups that apparently 

19 exist within our committee that I wasn't aware of. 

20 So maybe I'd better be careful where I eat dinner at 

21 tonight, because I may be on another group or 

22 something. 
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1 I mean to me, that's extremely 

2 disappointing, that we're not here open-minded, 

3 because what I hear in that is that I've got an 

4 agenda and I'm going to work my agenda, whatever 

5 comes out, whether the facts happen to go a different 

6 way. 

7 It bothers me. I mean I was encouraged to 

8 hear or shocked to hear that quote-unquote "a perfect 

9 consensus" is really the standard for this. So four 

10 seems to be very, very open now, having heard that 

11 really, you know, 100 percent consensus is really 

12 what's supposed to happen. I was advocating for 

13 thinking I would go for five. 

14 But having heard that perfection is the 

15 standard, four seems to be very lenient now. But at 

16 the same time, I would hope that if we have three 

17 people who want to block something, and they've got 

18 legitimate reasons, that they would be able to defend 

19 their reasons and to get one of us to vote with them. 

20 I mean quite frankly, I've got to be 

21 honest with you, I come in with no agenda. I mean I 

22 want to be part of this because I am an energy 
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1 advocate. That's what I do for business, when I 

2 commission and retro-commission buildings, you know. 

3 We typically reduce energy consumption by over 30 

4 percent when we retro-commission buildings. 

5 That's real savings. That's real impact 

6 at many, many levels, and that's why I want to be 

7 part of this, because I want to stop wasting energy, 

8 you know, and I think most of us in the room all 

9 agree to that. 

10 Everyone I've talked to on the committee 

11 to this date has said that, 100 percent of them. So 

12 I think we're closer than we need to be. What's 

13 shocking to me is that we can't even get through our 

14 rules, much less get to the substance of what we're 

15 trying to do. So I'd just advocate that we actually 

16 try to work together and be novel. 

17 MR. BOSWELL: Joanna. 

18 MS. MAUER: Just briefly. I think we all 

19 have an interest in getting to a solution that works 

20 for everyone in the room, which -- and so I think I 

21 may just see the process a little bit differently, 

22 Dan. 
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1 I think, you know, if we define consensus 

2 as something where, you know, a group of folks could 

3 disagree and yet that would still be considered 

4 consensus, then that actually works against, you 

5 know, ensuring that we get to a solution that really 

6 does work for everyone in the room. 

7 MR. HARTLEIN: Okay, great. I want to add 

8 that, you know, this all ties back to where we 

9 started earlier this morning, and I couldn't have 

10 said what Steve said better. So you know, to that 

11 extent, let's move on, okay. I can endorse the four 

12 as well, in the interest of the group. But I'm still 

13 not happy with the context under how we got there. 

14 So that's going to stick with me through this 

15 process. So thank you. 

16 MR. FERNSTROM: Well this is Gary. Let me 

17 just say one more thing in conclusion. I don't mean 

18 to disparage at all the interest of this industry or 

19 any other industry in trying to pursue greater 

20 efficiency. But having been involved in efficiency 

21 for 40 years in my job, and 15 years in codes and 

22 standards, I have to say that there is sort of a 
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1 fundamental difference in perspective between the 

2 energy efficiency advocates and industry in general. 

3 And we're kidding ourselves if, you know, 

4 if we don't recognize that. Yeah, we're here to 

5 compromise and you know, work together collectively 

6 toward a consensus. 

7 MR. HARTLEIN: Gary, can we have lunch 

8 together tomorrow? 

9 MR. FERNSTROM: How about breakfast? I'm 

10 leaving early. 

11 (Off mic comments.) 

12 MR. BOSWELL: Okay. So do we have a -- do 

13 we have agreement on quorum? 

14 MS. ARMSTRONG: 20 of 25, yes? 

15 MR. BOSWELL: Yes. 

16 MS. ARMSTRONG: Ground rules done. 

17 MR. BOSWELL: Okay. Can we do a formal -- 

18 we've done temperature checks. Can we have a formal 

19 vote to adopt the ground rules as edited and shown? 

20 All in favor? 

21 (Show of hands.) 

22 MS. ARMSTRONG: So there's a couple of 
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1 things I needed to fill in. Just we'll circulate 

2 them after I do that, just to make sure, but there we 

3 go. Why don't we take a break before we get started 

4 with the actual content? Does that work? 

5 MR. BOSWELL: That works. 

6 (Whereupon, a short recess was taken.) 

7 MR. BOSWELL: So do we have everyone 

8 from the committee back at the table? Okay. Before 

9 we move into the technical presentation, I just 

10 wanted to go over one thing. Earlier today, I talked 

11 about having a public participation portion at the 

12 end of the meeting. We have had some members of the 

13 public actually come to the microphone, and we've 

14 allowed them to comment. 

15 In the past I've been told that sometimes 

16 DOE, instead of having a separate public comment 

17 period for the final half hour, has just allowed the 

18 public to participate in the conversation, as the 

19 committee's having its meeting, and then not have the 

20 separate comment period. 

21 I'm told that people on the web can signal 

22 if they have a comment. So it's really a committee 
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1 decision, in terms of whether or not we want to allow 

2 public participation during the meeting, or if you 

3 want to reserve that for the final X number of 

4 minutes at the end of the meeting. Any discussion on 

5 that? 

6 MR. BURDICK: I would promote that we 

7 allow public speaking, you know, from participants -- 

8 MR. BOSWELL: Could you identify yourself? 

9 I'm sorry. 

10 MR. BURDICK: It's Larry Burdick at SPX. 

11 So I would again condone public participation, you 

12 know, during the meeting time and not wait until the 

13 end of the period. I think it makes the discussion 

14 more beneficial, to have all of the points fully 

15 presented during the time. 

16 MR. BOSWELL: Okay. Mark, I saw your 

17 card. 

18 MR. FLY: Yeah. Mark Fly with AAON. 

19 Having been one of the public participants in one of 

20 the early rulemakings, I'm a big proponent to allow 

21 that to happen. I think that there are people out 

22 there that can bring a lot to the table that, you 
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1 know, even though they don't have a vote. So I would 

2 also vote for public participation throughout the 

3 meeting. 

4 MR. BOSWELL: Okay. Any other thoughts on 

5 that. 

6 MR. FERNSTROM: Yeah, this is Gary. I 

7 agree. For example, we have a couple of motor makers 

8 and additional folks in the audience, and frequently 

9 public comment adds a lot to our discussion. 

10 MR. BOSWELL: Mike. 

11 MR. WOLF: Mike Wolf from Greenheck. Not 

12 that this is the same, but my experience in small 

13 village board meetings, school board meetings and 

14 that sort of thing has been that we've allowed the 

15 public to speak at the beginning of the meeting. 

16 So if they know there's something on the 

17 agenda they want to talk about they can, and then 

18 speak again at the end. And again, that might not be 

19 a fair analogy, but it just kind of kept the meeting 

20 from getting sidetracked at times. So for whatever 

21 that's worth. 

22 MR. FERNSTROM: So this is Gary. 
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1 Responding to your point, in a public meeting of that 

2 nature, allowing comment throughout the meeting can 

3 be disruptive. I haven't ever observed that to be 

4 the case in these kinds of meetings, and the 

5 facilitator can either choose to recognize or not 

6 recognize someone based on their conduct. 

7 MR. BOSWELL: Yeah, and I will say this in 

8 terms of our role as facilitators. I said earlier 

9 that part of our role is to make sure everyone had 

10 the chance to be fully heard. There may come a time 

11 during these meetings where I ask people to 

12 abbreviate their being fully heard, as a way of just 

13 time management. 

14 And I thought earlier, some of our 

15 discussions got lengthy, I felt people were being 

16 somewhat concise with their comments, even though -- 

17 but there's a lot of disagreement to express. So 

18 part of our role here would able to manage that, 

19 whether it's a committee member or it's somebody from 

20 the public. Any other thoughts? 

21 (No response.) 

22 MR. BOSWELL: Okay. So can we just take a 
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1 vote on -- I guess the vote would be to allow public 

2 participation during the meeting, as opposed to 

3 having a separate comment period at the end? 

4 MR. HARTLEIN: This is Dan. I don't think 

5 we have settled on the voting consensus, although we 

6 had a temperature on it. So before we have a vote, 

7 don't we have to agree what passes a vote? 

8 MR. BOSWELL: Okay. I guess in my mind 

9 when I'd asked for a vote on the ground rules as a 

10 whole, as put there -- 

11 MR. HARTLEIN: Oh we did. We already put 

12 that to bed. 

13 MR. BOSWELL: Yeah. I mean I did ask for 

14 a vote on the ground rules. 

15 MR. HARTLEIN: Don't worry. I didn't 

16 change my mind. 

17 (Laughter.) 

18 MR. BOSWELL: Is there anyone else that 

19 has any concerns that we have not adopted the ground 

20 rules as discussed earlier? Speak now. 

21 MR. JOHNSON: Diane. I just want to put 

22 my -- say that I voted for it too. 
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1 MR. BOSWELL: Great. Thank you, Diane. 

2 MR. JOHNSON: Thank you, sorry. 

3 MR. BOSWELL: So we're voting for allowing 

4 public participation during the course of the 

5 meeting. 

6 MR. JOHNSON: I would vote for that. 

7 MR. BOSWELL: Okay, and so far I'm seeing 

8 everyone either is voting in favor or can live with. 

9 So I think we have agreement that the public can 

10 participate during the meeting. We will control 

11 that, as we would any other discussion, and as a 

12 result, we will not have a separate, reserved public 

13 comment period at the end. 

14 So people that are participating by the 

15 webinar, I understand that with that technology, you 

16 can let the coordinator know if you have a comment to 

17 make, okay. Thank you. So I'm going to turn this 

18 over to Ashley for her presentation, unless there's 

19 something else that people wanted to raise. 

20 MS. ARMSTRONG: So I'm going to start off 

21 the presentation here, and I think we'll get a couple 

22 of slides in and then open it up, because I think we 
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1 will start the discussion from there. 

2 Just to set the stage a little bit, how we 

3 got here. So the statute directs DOE to adopt 

4 standards for commercial industrial fans and blowers, 

5 if those standards would be technologically feasible 

6 and economically justified. Currently we don't have 

7 standards for fans, as many of you know. 

8 In 2011, we published a Notice of Proposed 

9 Determination of Coverage. Subsequent to that, we 

10 published a framework document. We have also 

11 published two Notice of Data Availabilities. One was 

12 a while back in 2014, and then another one was the 

13 most recent one, which used, I would say, it was 

14 draft analyses with a different regulatory approach 

15 that we will be getting to. 

16 So just so you know the factors that DOE 

17 has to consider and the analyses that are conducted, 

18 since that might be new to some of you. These are 

19 the seven factors in the statute for which DOE has to 

20 consider in order to set standards. We do different 

21 analyses to address these factors. 

22 These are the analyses we'll be speaking 
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1 of in more detail when we talk about the standards. 

2 But these are also the analyses that you see, at 

3 least most of them, not all, that you see that were 

4 released as part of the Notice of Data Availability. 

5 So that includes a life cycle cost analysis, the 

6 manufacturer impact analysis, the National Impact 

7 Analysis. We do an engineering analysis, as well as 

8 the environmental, utility and employment analysis. 

9 So let's start out right with the 

10 fundamentals. So while DOE has the authority to set 

11 standards for all fans that meet the definition of 

12 fan, DOE currently does not have a definition of a 

13 fan. This is a definition of a fan for discussion 

14 purposes. This ultimately would define what we call 

15 our scope of coverage. 

16 I think DOE strongly prefers that this 

17 definition be kept fairly broad and all-encompassing. 

18 There are a couple of issues that we'd specifically 

19 like the committee's feedback and discussion on. But 

20 as you can see, you can read the definition that's on 

21 the slide, and then I can either tee up a couple of 

22 the specific issues, or we can pause here if people 
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1 want to provide feedback at this point. You can all 

2 say agree. 

3 MR. HAUER: I have followed European fan 

4 regulation quite closely up until 2015. I'm not 

5 following the 2017 so much, but I must say the fan 

6 definition is the most contested point. This is 

7 really the most political item, because the question 

8 also comes up who is a fan manufacturer and who is 

9 responsible for the efficiency claims. 

10 In your diagram here, I would personally 

11 agree fully with that one, and it also matches 

12 basically an image that is now in the upcoming AMCA 

13 210 indicated. So it would be a wire to air fan 

14 efficiency metric. 

15 MS. ARMSTRONG: Correct. 

16 MR. HARTLEIN: My question would be, not 

17 doing the metric conversions real quickly, 25 

18 kilojoules per kilograms of air. Can we put in that 

19 terms? Geoff, can you tell me what that is? That's 

20 Dr. Geoff that couldn't answer it. Just want to be 

21 clear. So what does that mean? 

22 (Off mic comment.) 
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1 MR. BOSWELL: And again, could people 

2 remember to identify themselves for the court 

3 reporter. 

4 MR. HARTLEIN: Sorry. 

5 MS. IYAMA: Sanaee Iyama. It's a pressure 

6 -- it's a ground to pressure ratio, that 1.3, and I 

7 believe it's also in the fan to finish included in 

8 AMCA 99. 

9 MR. HARTLEIN: Is it? Okay. 

10 MR. FERNSTROM: This is Gary. Thank you 

11 Dan, because I had no idea either. But I do 

12 understand a pressure ratio of 1.3. Thanks. 

13 MR. HAUER: It's Armin Hauer speaking. 

14 Indeed, the Fan Committee of AMCA is completely in 

15 alliance with that one. 

16 MR. SHEARD: Geoff Sheard, AGS Consulting. 

17 That's quite a high pressure for many of the fans in 

18 our industry. 

19 MS. ARMSTRONG: Can you do me a favor and 

20 go to Slide 47 please? Next one. Yeah, this one. 

21 So perhaps this will -- this teed up one of the 

22 issues that we wanted your feedback on. We have a 
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1 need to distinguish between fans, blowers and 

2 compressors. So that's where we're going. 

3 We have a concurrent rulemaking for 

4 compressors, and this is why we feel we need this as 

5 part of the definition. 

6 MS. IYAMA: Sanaee Iyama. I just want to 

7 add that in Europe, they have in their definition 

8 both the limit expressed in terms of energy limit, 25 

9 kilojoules per kilogram and a pressure ratio of 1.1, 

10 and they recently published a review of their 

11 regulation. They had a lot of issues with their fan 

12 definition, and they're thinking of dropping the 25 

13 and just maintaining the 1.1. 

14 MS. MAUER: This is Joanna. I think our 

15 concern with the proposed definition is that clearly 

16 we're not going to set standards here for all fans 

17 that would meet that definition, and but using that 

18 definition would mean that all fans are preempted, 

19 which we would be concerned about. 

20 So I think what we would prefer to see is 

21 the definition for covered equipment to be consistent 

22 with the equipment that we actually set standards for 
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1 in this rulemaking. 

2 MS. ARMSTRONG: So I think you're going to 

3 hear DOE disagree with that fundamentally, because 

4 that would change our authority period. We could 

5 never go back. Well, never is not the right word, 

6 but it would be hard. It would be hard. So I think 

7 we would much prefer to keep it broad. We would like 

8 to make our authority clear at the outset. 

9 MR. FERNSTROM: This is Gary. I agree 

10 with Joanna. I think -- I see Betsy shaking her 

11 head. But I'd agree with Joanna. I think we'd like 

12 to see the class of products that DOE has the 

13 authority to regulate be as consistent as possible 

14 with those regulated, which would not preclude states 

15 from regulating products that DOE chooses not to. 

16 But if you're going to, as a matter of 

17 policy, make all of these definitions as broad as 

18 possible, we'd encourage you anyway, at least 

19 initially or over a period of time, to develop 

20 regulations for all of the products that fall in 

21 those broad classes. 

22 (Pause.) 
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1 MS. ARMSTRONG: So just to get back to 

2 specific issues, more specific issues with regards 

3 to, does anyone have an opinion specifically on this 

4 slide regarding how to -- what is the best way or 

5 perhaps the best descriptor to distinguish between 

6 fans, blowers and then ultimately compressors? 

7 Should we keep it right now the original 

8 slide, have it in the 25 kilojoules per kilogram? 

9 Should we move to a specific ratio? Does anybody 

10 have an opinions on that one? 

11 MR. BOSWELL: Wade. 

12 MR. SMITH: I think we've said in the 

13 past, so I'll just repeat, that the words in our 

14 industry of fan and blower are oftentimes used 

15 interchangeably, and but there's no sort of 

16 designated -- I think in ASME there might have been 

17 at one time, or maybe even in AMCA. But in general 

18 practice, a fan, you know, I see people referring to 

19 fans inside residential equipment as blowers. I mean 

20 it's just -- it's a fan and a blower. It's the same 

21 thing. 

22 With regard to the upper limit, I don't 
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1 think we have a problem with it. But I, you know, 

2 the devil's in the details, and it's something that 

3 we would want to go back and look at with our 

4 technical team. I think conceptually, you've got it 

5 here. Now we just need to make a double-check, 

6 that's all. 

7 MR. BOSWELL: Laura. 

8 MS. PETRILLO-GROH: Laura Petrillo-Groh, 

9 AHRI. Out of curiosity, is the compressor definition 

10 now energy output above 25 kilojoules per kilogram? 

11 MS. ARMSTRONG: So the compressor is a 

12 separate ongoing rule, but the idea would be to make 

13 sure they're not overlapping. Let's put it that way. 

14 MS. PETRILLO-GROH: I don't know if this 

15 is the time to address it, but I know we've got 

16 manufacture at the time of sale in the definition. 

17 So I think that that needs to be discussed, because 

18 at what point of sale, you know. 

19 If you're buying a particular fan, 

20 adapting it and installing it in a piece of 

21 equipment, you know, and selling it again, there are 

22 two sales. We do need to discuss the standards and 
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1 the compliance for that situation. 

2 And also I would like to see an exclusion 

3 for regulated products, as was proposed in the 

4 framework document. 

5 MS. ARMSTRONG: So this is Ashley from 

6 DOE. I don't think you're going to see an exclusion 

7 in the definition, at least from DOE's point of view 

8 for regulated products. Now we will get into the 

9 scope of the standards that we ultimately are talking 

10 about as we move forward. But I think from DOE's 

11 perspective, the definition should be broad. So can 

12 you go back to Slide 45 please? 

13 One of the other things I think we want to 

14 mention is there was some -- there's been some talk 

15 that within industry, that it's happened with regards 

16 to continuous flow of gas. So we have that 

17 clarification there, and I guess we seek some input 

18 from the committee about that clarification, to make 

19 sure that it excludes fans that are, I guess, bowing 

20 materials. 

21 But it is just gas-related fans. So 

22 perhaps you could go to Slide 46. You can also just 
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1 hand that to me. Thanks. Does anybody have any 

2 thoughts on that one? 

3 MR. BOSWELL: Dan. 

4 MR. HARTLEIN: Yeah. Not to argue the 

5 other side of the point here, but there is very, very 

6 good high efficient product that can accomplish that 

7 goal in the marketplace, and I guess we would be 

8 leaning toward not needing that exemption. 

9 So perhaps -- this is Dan Hartlein, I'm 

10 sorry. I'm going to get that before. I commit. 

11 Before the day's over, I'll get to that. By tomorrow 

12 I'll have it down. Yeah, thanks. Thanks, Dave. 

13 MS. ARMSTRONG: Okay. 

14 MR. HARTLEIN: So to us, there are 

15 products here that are very efficient, that can do 

16 that duty. So I'm not sure. We would probably 

17 advocate not to have that exemption, at least I 

18 would. I shouldn't say "we." 

19 MS. ARMSTRONG: We brought it up, because 

20 it's something that as we understand it, our 

21 colleagues in Europe are facing, so or at least 

22 considering. But thanks. That's helpful feedback. 
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1 MR. ROY: Aniruddh Roy, Goodman. Ashley, 

2 I'd like to just get some clarification on the 

3 definition, as to why you would like to keep it broad 

4 and not be specific to the use of fans and other 

5 regulated product. 

6 MS. ARMSTRONG: So I think -- 

7 MR. ROY: Why not cover that? 

8 MS. ARMSTRONG: I think we'll get into 

9 this in more detail as we talk about what the scope 

10 of standards may be. 

11 You know, from a broad overview point of 

12 view, I think when we start talking about the 

13 specific categories of fans and their different 

14 applications, you know, from DOE's perspective it's 

15 been hard to draw a line between different categories 

16 of fans that are sold individually versus different 

17 categories of fan or the same categories of fan that 

18 ultimately may be included into the end use product. 

19 Like I said, and I think as we correctly 

20 noted, you know, it may be something that we're 

21 willing to go back and look at, a leader. But I 

22 think unless you can draw a clear distinction, you 
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1 know, at the point of the fan itself, I'm not sure 

2 you can just write a broad-based conclusion like 

3 that. 

4 MR. ROY: The reason I ask the question is 

5 because you could have a scenario where an impeller 

6 is bought and then the housing is generated by the 

7 OEM that is regulated for that bigger equipment. 

8 So that puts that OEM under the obligation 

9 to, you know, be covered under this definition and 

10 subsequently report to DOE under the certification 

11 report, which would be, in my opinion, a double 

12 regulation because they're already reporting the 

13 overall efficiency of the equipment. 

14 MS. ARMSTRONG: So I think we'll get to 

15 that. 

16 MR. ROY: Yeah, thanks. 

17 MS. ARMSTRONG: But that's correct. 

18 (Off mic comment.) 

19 MS. ARMSTRONG: So I think there are 

20 specific aspects of it that are set from DOE. I mean 

21 DOE's not going to come negotiate its authority. 

22 That being said, I think we're willing to talk about 
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1 the scope of the standards and the scope of the test 

2 procedures going forward, which I think is what 

3 really matters to you anyway. 

4 Okay. So I'm going to leave the -- I will 

5 revise the definition on the -- oh, I'm sorry. 

6 MR. BOSWELL: Greg. 

7 MS. ARMSTRONG: Can you just yell at me, 

8 because I'm not really good with this place card 

9 thing. 

10 MR. WAGNER: Well, I'll try to -- I'll get 

11 flares for the next meeting. This is Greg. We're 

12 talking about fans, and you mentioned not excluding 

13 things, and previously mentioned that there's no fans 

14 covered. But recently in last year, we went through 

15 a whole process of covering furnace fans. 

16 Those are clearly covered now, and have 

17 rules in place. How do you exclude them from this 

18 particular rulemaking? Or are you? 

19 MS. ARMSTRONG: I don't know. You bring 

20 up a good point. I think I'll have to think about 

21 it. I think it wasn't necessarily our intention to 

22 pull them in, but we'll look. Do you have an idea, a 
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1 suggestion about how to make it explicit about 

2 furnace fans? 

3 MR. WAGNER: Well, I'm just saying that 

4 there are fans their energy use is covered under many 

5 different energy consumption protocols, and furnace 

6 fans being directly regulated has a, I don't know 

7 what date it was, but here not too long ago, and they 

8 could potentially be under the scope of what you just 

9 talked about. 

10 MS. ARMSTRONG: I'm not sure that's 

11 necessarily a definitional issue, but you're right. 

12 We should definitely make sure. We should square 

13 away things with regards to standard when we get to 

14 talk about applicability. 

15 MR. WAGNER: Okay, and then the second 

16 part, and Laura kind of talked about it, was that it 

17 says the manufacturer at the time of sale. 

18 Oftentimes, those fans are put together. 

19 Sometimes there's an impeller 

20 manufacturer; sometimes there's an impeller 

21 manufacturing and housing manufacturer; sometimes 

22 there's an impeller manufacturing and housing 
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1 manufacturer, and that goes then with the drive and 

2 transmission. And then finally, that will get put 

3 into a final equipment. 

4 Is each time of that sale of any of those 

5 aspects going to be covered? I mean I'm trying to 

6 figure out what you're saying by that Slide 45, 44, 

7 whatever that is. 

8 MS. ARMSTRONG: 45, yeah. 

9 MR. WAGNER: 45. 

10 MS. ARMSTRONG: So as I read that, if 

11 included by the manufacturer at time of sale and keep 

12 in mind that this hasn't been tweaked by our legal 

13 department, so she may have better suggestions for 

14 me, was meant to qualify a transmission, driver and 

15 controls. So those components are included if they 

16 are included at the time of sale for the impeller, 

17 shaft, bearings, structure. 

18 MR. WAGNER: Well sometimes they're sold 

19 multiple times, you know. 

20 MS. ARMSTRONG: Yep. 

21 MR. WAGNER: So it would be each step of 

22 that would be regulated? 
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1 MS. ARMSTRONG: I don't think it's the 

2 intention necessarily for each step to be regulated. 

3 I think depending on once we get to talking about the 

4 metric, and how it's all packaged together and what 

5 the testing looks like in terms of -- but I do think 

6 it was meant to be the fan, the impeller, the shaft, 

7 the structure, the bearings, the fan. Once that 

8 piece is constructed, that would be a fan, and that 

9 would be the regulated product. 

10 MR. WAGNER: Okay. Well again it's sold 

11 that way oftentimes, and then oftentimes it's sold 

12 again, where you have the transmission, driver and 

13 all that stuff included. So is it twice it's going 

14 to be covered then? 

15 MS. ARMSTRONG: I think your point's well 

16 taken. 

17 MR. WAGNER: All right. 

18 MR. BOSWELL: Laura, did you have a 

19 comment? 

20 MS. PETRILLO-GROH: Yeah. Just one more 

21 thing to add to that list of things we need to think 

22 about, the controls. When you put that fan into 
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1 another product, are the controls the fan controls or 

2 the OEM product controls? 

3 MR. BOSWELL: Wade. 

4 MR. FINE: And just one quick thing. 

5 People are putting up their tents, which are good, to 

6 show us that they want to speak. But sometimes, from 

7 my point of view, those fans or those tents are 

8 obscured by the laptop. So stick them out there a 

9 little further. Sorry about that. 

10 MR. SMITH: Yeah. I was just going to 

11 clarify material in fans, and I guess this is more 

12 appropriately talked about in the test standard. But 

13 we would expect them, since the actual energy use of 

14 the fan depends upon the material that they're 

15 conveying, the expectation is that they would be 

16 tested and performance-rated based on processing 

17 clean air. 

18 Even though their intended use is to 

19 convey material, they can be -- they are tested and 

20 rated based on clean air. 

21 MS. ARMSTRONG: Does anybody else have 

22 anything? So I think one of the -- 
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1 MR. BOSWELL: Mike. 

2 MS. ARMSTRONG: I'm sorry, go ahead. 

3 MR. WOLF: Mike Wolf, Greenheck. So maybe 

4 this piggybacks on Greg's comment, but with regard to 

5 what's included, this is more of a terminology thing. 

6 The way your definition is written there now, putting 

7 the word "if" in there. So in one case, it's going 

8 to be regulated one way. 

9 But if the manufacturer does something 

10 different, it's regulated another way. It seems like 

11 a definition. It's either a fan or not a fan, and if 

12 you put the word "if" in there, now it's kind of an 

13 ambiguous thing well, which way is it? So just to 

14 comment. 

15 MS. ARMSTRONG: All right. So perhaps you 

16 guys can think about some suggested ways to -- I mean 

17 I think the picture best describes what we were 

18 trying to capture, and that's really what we call 

19 wire to air ultimately metric and system here, 

20 similar to what we did with pumps, but it was water 

21 on the other end. But we're happy to take 

22 suggestions that's consistent with that intent. 
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1 MR. BOSWELL: Dan. 

2 MR. HARTLEIN: Dan Hartlein. So 

3 oftentimes as you draw that train, that could be four 

4 steps in the delivery process. There could be four 

5 different companies. 

6 So asking the question, is it -- is it 

7 compliant or regulated I guess is the right word. 

8 Once that entire power train and everything is 

9 assembled, or are the individual pieces regulated, or 

10 is it regulated on all four steps? Maybe that's 

11 echoing a little bit of what Greg was saying as well. 

12 So that's -- that is a -- and I'm not maybe looking 

13 for an answer, just a point of discussion. 

14 That's a huge challenge to define that, 

15 because we will oftentimes sell just an impeller to 

16 somebody, who puts it in their housing, adds their 

17 motor, and frankly a third party might add the 

18 controls or what I think we mean by controls. There 

19 is variable frequency drive, speed control. 

20 And so in that arena, that can be four 

21 different sales. So just to throw out that 

22 complexity. 
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1 MR. BOSWELL: Armin. 

2 MR. HAUER: It's Armin Hauer speaking. I 

3 would suggest that if included by manufacturer, it's 

4 moved further into the back of that sentence, just in 

5 front of "controls," and then that the controls box, 

6 the green box could maybe be shaded in a different 

7 color, because that would be optional. 

8 But everything else is mandatory. You 

9 have to have the driven fan, the non-driven fan, the 

10 transmission and driver and then the controls as an 

11 option, and this is where the "if" comes in. 

12 Everything else would be really ambiguous. 

13 MR. SMITH: In the pump rulemaking there 

14 was a very -- 

15 MR. BOSWELL: Please identify yourself. 

16 MR. SMITH: Oh, I'm sorry. Wade Smith. 

17 In the pump rulemaking, there's a very accommodating 

18 approach, which defined how the regulation would 

19 apply if the pump was sold by a standing alone, and 

20 how it would be regulated if it was sold with some of 

21 these other components, the transmission, the driver, 

22 the controls. 
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1 So I think what you've done here is 

2 actually quite good. Armin's business is principally 

3 making packages, but many of our other members make 

4 and sell fans, which is just the extreme right-hand 

5 box in this diagram, and there has to be an 

6 accommodation to that circumstance in the regulation, 

7 which is the way I read your intent here. 

8 And of course I think it will come out 

9 here in our discussions, but the portion of the 

10 diagram called the non-driven fan is actually -- 

11 actually can be broken up into further, you know, 

12 because sometimes there's just an impeller sold. 

13 Sometimes there's an impeller and bearing, sometimes 

14 there's an impeller, bearings and housing. 

15 So the question is when does the 

16 regulation kick in, and the folks here who make those 

17 components under some circumstances will have -- 

18 obviously they'll have comments and suggestions on 

19 how to deal with that. But just to kind of tee that 

20 up. I know it's coming in the discussions. 

21 MR. BOSWELL: Steve. 

22 MR. DIKEMAN: Steve Dikeman. This is kind 
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1 of going to spin off of this, and I'll just -- we 

2 make a fan that meets the definition of a fan up 

3 there, and I have one customer who provides us the 

4 motor. 

5 So we then mount their motor on what was 

6 the far right-hand box. So now I've got the first 

7 two boxes covered just in components, but then I can 

8 also sell it myself with the motor. So now two things 

9 that look exactly alike fall into different 

10 regulatory categories or not? Because all I sold was 

11 the fan or I sold the fan and the motor? 

12 MS. ARMSTRONG: So I think it depends on 

13 what we ultimately decide, first of all. But I think 

14 what we were looking for, at least in our overall 

15 regulatory approach, was just a -- what I would call 

16 wire to air metric. This definition, which 

17 encompasses those additional pieces, besides just 

18 what you would think of as the conventional fan, 

19 allows us to do that. 

20 The definition has to be encompassing of 

21 that. Now that being said, for pumps, and something 

22 that we could consider -- I think you'll likely see 
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1 this coming down the pike when we get to it was, you 

2 know, if it's just -- if you only manufacture the 

3 fan, and when I'm going to call the fan, I'm going to 

4 say it's the impeller and its housing and associated, 

5 you know, the completed fan in the green box up 

6 there. 

7 We provided an avenue for you to get your 

8 full metric without having to know the other pieces 

9 that ultimately it may be paired with in the field. 

10 So that way, you would still be representing in this 

11 full wire to air metric, but you would only have the 

12 fan piece that you would know through testing. 

13 So for lack of a better term, it's almost 

14 like dummy or nominal values for the motor 

15 efficiency, the driver, the controls. However, if 

16 sold a full system, we would also provide a test 

17 method for the full system, which would give you 

18 everything for your system that you're packaging at 

19 the point of the fan manufacturer. 

20 The intent wasn't at every step of the way 

21 to pick up a new piece to test and add to it. At 

22 least that's not what we did in pumps, and 
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1 conceivably that's not what DOE was going for here 

2 either. 

3 MS. PETRILLO-GROH: Ashley, thank you very 

4 much for that clarification. To make it more clear 

5 in the definition, can I propose adding "if included 

6 by the manufacturer at the time of first sale"? 

7 MR. DADDIS: Ashley, can you define -- 

8 this is Duane Daddis. Can you define what you mean 

9 wire to air? Is that electrical power too? 

10 MR. SMITH: Convert electrical power to 

11 air power. 

12 MR. DADDIS: Okay. So then we say in a 

13 basic definition, we're saying that it converts 

14 mechanical. So aren't we saying -- if we say wire to 

15 air, we're saying it's converting electrical power 

16 instead of mechanical, because when you say 

17 mechanical power, I think it doesn't include the 

18 motor. Just shaft power is there, and then we're 

19 going to start from the shaft. 

20 MS. ARMSTRONG: Does anybody else have -- 

21 I have no opinion on that. 

22 MALE PARTICIPANT: That's great. 
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1 MALE PARTICIPANT: Well, mechanical power 

2 would be the impeller. 

3 MR. SMITH: Right. Mechanical power would 

4 refer to only one of the boxes. 

5 MALE PARTICIPANT: The impeller. 

6 MR. SMITH: Right. So if you want to take 

7 the wire to air definition, you would say convert 

8 electrical power. I'm sorry. This is Wade Smith. 

9 Convert electrical power to air power. 

10 MS. ARMSTRONG: All right. We'll include 

11 those tweaks and circulate it in our working draft 

12 for you guys to think about a little bit. 

13 MS. MAUER: This is Joanna. Sorry, if I 

14 can just ask a question on your suggestion Wade. I'm 

15 just trying to think, in the case where a 

16 manufacturer is selling just a bare shaft fan, would 

17 that still meet the definition of converting 

18 electrical power? 

19 MR. SMITH: Yes. 

20 MS. MAUER: Okay. 

21 MR. SMITH: Well right, because I look at 

22 this way, because the certification prior to air for 
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1 that fan which you described, that does not have a 

2 motor, would assume a value for the motor and the 

3 certification would be wire to air. 

4 MS. MAUER: Right. 

5 MR. SMITH: So the fan definition, right. 

6 So he's going to make a mechanically driven fan that 

7 doesn't have any of the mechanics. It doesn't have 

8 the transmission, doesn't have the motor, doesn't 

9 have the control, and is going to certify the 

10 performance of that product against the standard, 

11 where the standard calls for those devices, but which 

12 are not provided. Instead are accounted for in the 

13 certification at default values. 

14 MS. MAUER: Right, I understand that, 

15 yeah. I just want to make sure that it's clear that, 

16 you know, and not somehow a loophole. 

17 MR. SMILEY: I just want to ask Wade a 

18 point of clarification. 

19 MR. BOSWELL: Please identify yourself. 

20 MR. SMILEY: Oh excuse me. Bill Smiley, 

21 Trane. Where would those default values come from? 

22 I mean we just make something up or do we have to 
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1 vote on something? DOE going to tell us what those 

2 are, and only if you -- 

3 MS. ARMSTRONG: Yes, that's how it worked 

4 for pumps. 

5 MR. SMILEY: What? 

6 MS. ARMSTRONG: That's how it worked for 

7 pumps. 

8 MR. SMILEY: So you have to add all of 

9 them, whether you use it with controls or not or -- 

10 MS. ARMSTRONG: You want to use a full 

11 system metric. 

12 MR. SMILEY: Even if the -- see, the whole 

13 goal here is to reduce the energy consumed, by 

14 providing the function that fans provide, right. So 

15 if you use it, and you don't use any controls on it, 

16 just on/off switch, you still have to rate it using 

17 the manufacturers that DOE tells us. 

18 (Off mic comment.) 

19 MR. SMILEY: It's an engineering term, 

20 Wade. 

21 MR. SMITH: I think you just described an 

22 application in which the control is an on/off switch. 
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1 MR. SMILEY: Right. 

2 MR. SMITH: So to the extent that the 

3 on/off switch is inefficient, its inefficiency would 

4 be added to the metric. If it's not inefficient, 

5 which is my suspicion, it would have no impact, 

6 right? 

7 MR. SMILEY: Right. But if you have -- 

8 Bill Smiley, Trane, to continue on that. If 

9 somebody's going to tell me I build an impeller, but 

10 I don't sell it with a motor or anything and I have 

11 to rate it by putting all these factors in for all 

12 these compliments, transmission, motor and controls, 

13 I don't know if the guy's going to use an inverter or 

14 on/off switch. I don't know. 

15 MR. SMITH: Right well -- 

16 MS. ARMSTRONG: Ultimately, I think we're 

17 going to get there with the discussion of metric. 

18 You guys are happy to have it now but -- 

19 MR. SMITH: I'll talk to him. I'll 

20 straighten him out separately. You're absolutely 

21 right, and there's a -- there's nothing inconsistent 

22 with this definition, with the manufacturer's ability 
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1 to fulfill the need you described, which is to rate 

2 the fan based on its mechanical shaft input power. I 

3 think that will unfold. 

4 MR. SMILEY: That's the cleanest way to do 

5 it. 

6 MR. SMITH: And if that's the way it's 

7 sold, then that's the way it would be determined, its 

8 efficiency would be determined. But I think as 

9 Ashley said, that will come as we unfold, peel back 

10 that. 

11 MR. BOSWELL: Okay. So we had one 

12 question or comment from the web that Steve's going 

13 to read, and then Meg can come in next. 

14 MR. FINE: Yeah. We had somebody on the 

15 web, Lauren Crane, and he or she asks does the 

16 definition clearly address the case of a fan (with 

17 all four elements incorporated in another product)? 

18 That's question number one. Actually and it says 

19 example given, fan and a machine, would both the form 

20 manufacturing and the machine manufacturing be 

21 regulated? I think that's fan, not form. Shall I 

22 read that again? 
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1 (Off mic comment.) 

2 MR. FINE: I'm not sure if that's 

3 addressed to anyone specific. Maybe Ashley would 

4 like to take that. 

5 MS. ARMSTRONG: Yeah. So she's asking do 

6 we think the definition clearly addresses the case of 

7 a fan, with all four specific elements incorporated 

8 into another product. For example, the fan in a 

9 machine would both be fan manufacturing and 

10 ultimately the machine manufacturing be regulated. I 

11 think the answer is it's yet to be determined. 

12 MALE PARTICIPANT: What? 

13 MS. ARMSTRONG: It's yet to be determined. 

14 MR. BOSWELL: Meg. 

15 MS. ARMSTRONG: I think we do believe that 

16 this fan definition, though, encompasses those fans 

17 that would be in OEM products. 

18 MS. WALTNER: This is Meg. I just wanted 

19 to go back to the discussion between Wade and Joanna 

20 about changing mechanical to electrical. Is it the 

21 case that fans are exclusively driven by motors, or 

22 are other energy sources as drivers possible, and if 
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1 so, I think we'd just want to accommodate for that in 

2 the definition. 

3 MR. HARTLEIN: So yes, it's true that 

4 there are times -- oh Dan Hartlein. Yes. It is true 

5 that there are fans driven in other means than 

6 electrical. The most common is when a factory would 

7 have waste steam in the industrial market. They 

8 would drive that waste steam through a steam turbine. 

9 To the extent that that is a gain on 

10 efficiency, because we're using waste steam, and also 

11 I don't know -- we haven't gotten to the point. But 

12 we were talking, back when we were working with 

13 advocates and industry, about a range of perhaps one 

14 to two hundred horsepower. 

15 I don't know of any steam-driven fans in 

16 my career that are in that range. So I don't know if 

17 Mark, if you'd agree with that, but there are 

18 steam-driven fans, but they tend to be larger fans, 

19 where that energy pickup is really, really 

20 considerable for using that waste steam, and steam 

21 turbines are very, very expensive. 

22 So it's not done on a -- so for in that 
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1 one to two hundred horsepower range, I don't think 

2 it's an issue. So okay. Does that answer your 

3 question? 

4 MS. WALTNER: Yeah it does, and I guess it 

5 -- well, that's fine. 

6 MS. ARMSTRONG: Can we just get rid of the 

7 term, mechanical, electrical? Can we just say it's a 

8 rotary-bladed machine? Do we even need it? 

9 MR. FERNSTROM: Yeah. This is Gary. 

10 Don't you have to make some reference to what drives 

11 the machine in its definition? Maybe not. 

12 MR. BOSWELL: I have Greg and then Mark. 

13 MR. WAGNER: A couple things. One, to 

14 your question, there are a lot of fans that are 

15 driven by things other than electrical or mechanical, 

16 electro-mechanical machinery, which gets us to 

17 another point. 

18 Are these -- are we excluding 

19 transportation equipment, construction equipment and 

20 those kind of things, because there's tons of -- 

21 there's tons of fans that are outside of electrical 

22 driven fans that are mostly represented here. 
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1 You know, there's transmission coolers on 

2 helicopters and other things like that, which are 

3 well within the scope of this power requirement, and 

4 would fall under this standard. 

5 MALE PARTICIPANT: A radiator. 

6 MALE PARTICIPANT: A radiator on a car. 

7 (Off mic comments.) 

8 MR. WAGNER: So there's loads of fans that 

9 are included, I guess, and so to answer your 

10 question, most of I think the people here represent 

11 stuff that's electrically driven. But there are a 

12 whole swath of other fans that would fall under this 

13 definition, that conceivably would be captured by 

14 this regulation. I don't know whether that's 

15 intended or not, but that's there. 

16 MR. BUBLITZ: Mark Bublitz, New York 

17 Blower Company. Down the road from us is a rotary 

18 cutting food processing equipment. It doesn't gas, 

19 but it pushes food and slices carrots and things like 

20 that, and it's a rotary-bladed machine. So you've 

21 got to keep the gas in there and -- 

22 MR. BOSWELL: Armin. 
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1 MR. HAUER: I would vote to include 

2 electrical, and I would say a fan is a rotary-bladed 

3 machine used to convert electrical power to air 

4 power. 

5 MR. SMITH: Ashley? Ashley? 

6 MS. ARMSTRONG: Yes. 

7 MR. SMITH: Is it DOE's intent to cover 

8 engine-driven fans? 

9 (Off mic comment.) 

10 MS. ARMSTRONG: I think we were keeping it 

11 broad. So that's, I think, we -- our understanding, 

12 and obviously not with that expertise, but was that 

13 electrical would exclude that, and that maybe was not 

14 our intent. 

15 MALE PARTICIPANT: Even in a plug in? 

16 MALE PARTICIPANT: That's why you had 

17 mechanical energy. 

18 MR. BOSWELL: Greg. 

19 MR. WAGNER: There's still a lot of 

20 electrical driven in transportation appliances, 

21 including refrigerated trucks and train transport, 

22 construction equipment, helicopters, airplanes, 
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1 etcetera. 

2 MR. FERNSTROM: So this is Gary. I'd just 

3 like to make a comment from the perspective of the 

4 utility industry. 

5 One of the issues for us is the 

6 competition between utility-supplied natural gas fuel 

7 and utility-supplied electric fuel, and Steve 

8 Rosenstock isn't here, but both the EEI and AGA are 

9 sensitive to the notion that maybe one fuel use might 

10 be regulated to the disadvantage of another. 

11 So I think it's important that DOE address 

12 multiple fuels, but utility-supplied ones. I don't 

13 think we care so much if it's a fan, you know, on a 

14 tractor and an automobile. But there's an industry 

15 competitive issue if electrically powered fans get 

16 treated different than ones that might be driven by 

17 engines or turbines that are fueled by natural gas. 

18 MR. FINE: Can I just ask a dumb question. 

19 Are turbines included in this or for instance, like 

20 there's turbines that -- generating power, like even 

21 a nuclear weapons, or not weapons plant, but a 

22 nuclear plant would heat steam, that would turn 
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1 turbines? 

2 MR. WAGNER: Their compression ratio is 

3 greater than this, at least I hope it is. 

4 MR. FINE: Okay. I'm just trying to 

5 understand. 

6 (Off mic comments.) 

7 MS. ARMSTRONG: I think we've heard the 

8 feedback. I think we need to think about what 

9 wordsmithing the definitions might look like, given 

10 our -- so let's proceed down with talking about 

11 components and some of the -- what different 

12 categories of fans would be in scope, what exactly 

13 we're talking about, and then perhaps we can revisit. 

14 If anybody has ideas, we welcome them. 

15 So we're not sure this is completely 

16 needed, but I guess we did -- we tried to generate 

17 ideas for this PowerPoint. This PowerPoint isn't 

18 necessarily meant to convey DOE's opinions. They are 

19 just discussion topics. 

20 But we do believe that, you know, a fan 

21 typically consists of an impeller shaft, bearings, 

22 the structure of the housing, even if that structure 
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1 or housing is part of an OEM product. And so these 

2 are some definitions potentially for impeller, 

3 structure and housing, to the extent we believe that 

4 they're necessarily to ultimately define what I would 

5 call the non-driven fan. Not the full fan that we're 

6 defining, but the non-driven portion of the fan. 

7 If we are mimicking fans, just for a 

8 discussion point, if we're mimicking fans potentially 

9 as we did pumps, while we used a full wire to water 

10 metric there that included controls and motors, we 

11 ultimately did it -- structured it in such a way, 

12 such that the pump manufacturer of what I would call 

13 the bare pump is the one responsible for making those 

14 representations and ultimately. 

15 So if we did something similar here, it 

16 would be the bare fan manufacturer which would have 

17 all of these parts. It wouldn't be an impeller 

18 manufacturer. It wouldn't be a structure. It would 

19 be the person who has the impeller, structure and 

20 housing put together. 

21 MR. HARTLEIN: Dan Hartlein. You 

22 mentioned the pump rulemaking. Did you include 
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1 alternative driven pumps in the pump rulemaking? So 

2 a diesel-driven pump would be included, would be 

3 covered, for example? 

4 MS. ARMSTRONG: I'll go back and 

5 double-check. I think we did though, yeah. 

6 MS. MAUER: This is Joanna. If you could 

7 just clarify one thing. I assume there's a similar 

8 issue in fans, but certainly on pumps that the same 

9 pump can be driven by an electric motor or an engine 

10 or something else, and the pump manufacturer may not 

11 know how it's actually applied. 

12 So I think if that's the case in fans, 

13 then I think it's problematic to limit it to a 

14 certain fuel and a manufacturer may not know how it 

15 will actually be applied. 

16 MR. HARTLEIN: Actually engine -- Dan 

17 Hartlein. Engine-driven pumps tend to have issues 

18 with the -- with the ability for that engine to put 

19 inertia into that system that were not designed for. 

20 So it is not typically the exact same machine. It's 

21 typically having to be designed for that driver, for 

22 that type of drive. 
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1 When we get into steam turbine drive, we 

2 have all sorts of torsional and dynamic analysis that 

3 we have to do across that power train. So we're not 

4 able to use the exact same fan with an electric motor 

5 that we use with these alternative drives. That's 

6 not the same. So to the extent that that's true in 

7 the pump business, it's not in the fan business. 

8 They're different, okay? 

9 MS. MAUER: So that's true in all cases, 

10 that a fan that's -- you would design it to be driven 

11 by an electric motor and no other? 

12 MR. HARTLEIN: To my knowledge, yes. When 

13 you get into these alternative drive systems, we have 

14 other things we have to look at, that we don't have 

15 to look at with the simplicity of an electric motor 

16 drive system. 

17 MS. ARMSTRONG: So I'm going to keep going 

18 with the other definitions, which would complete what 

19 I would call a system, a fan system, ultimately we 

20 are defining the fan. But it will be a control, 

21 driver, transmissions. 

22 MR. HAUER: I'm getting confused now, how 
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1 we proceed here, because we are looking at slides now 

2 that the DOE had prepared, and we are providing some 

3 feedback. What is happening now? Are we going all 

4 go home and write alternative definitions, or will 

5 the DOE now amend the slides, like we said and like 

6 we did with the ground rules? 

7 MS. ARMSTRONG: Yeah. Well, there's a lot 

8 of feedback coming at me though, to do them on the 

9 fly. I was going to try to come up with revised 

10 definitions for distribution perhaps later tonight or 

11 tomorrow, that you can take a look at again and we'll 

12 revisit it in the morning. 

13 But at least since this is the first time 

14 you guys are seeing this, maybe walk through some 

15 bigger issues, items, and then you can think about it 

16 a little bit before we adjourn. And then we will 

17 also do some revisions to be responsive. But yeah, 

18 the intent is to revise, based on feedback. 

19 Absolutely. You guys are a quiet crowd. 

20 MR. BOSWELL: I think there's a public 

21 comment in the back. 

22 MR. CATANIA: Tom Catania, consultant, 
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1 AMCA. You know in that regard, it would have been 

2 very helpful, and I'm sure there are a number of good 

3 reasons for it. But had the AMCA folks, and I'm sure 

4 this would be true for others, seen this document 

5 even a day before, we would have -- we would have had 

6 more well-formulated positions on some of these 

7 issues. 

8 So as much as possible when we're having 

9 these scheduled meetings, if we can get any sort of a 

10 document in advance, I think that will make for a 

11 much more efficient meeting. 

12 MS. ARMSTRONG: Okay. So we have a 

13 comment from the webinar. "This list of parts should 

14 match the parts named in the previous graphic. They 

15 do not appear at this time, appear to match." 

16 Okay. That's a good comment. So just 

17 that's the intent, is just with day one, things were 

18 a lot in flux, and this is my seventh public meeting 

19 day in a row. So I might have been doing the slides 

20 yesterday. But that's the intent going forward, 

21 absolutely. 

22 So you guys can think about these. I'm 
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1 going to go through this really quick. It's 4:15 

2 already. I at least want to get through the scope 

3 stuff and the category definitions, and then perhaps 

4 maybe we can adjourn and let you think about those 

5 for the night, because I think this is where we might 

6 have some more lively feedback and a great place to 

7 start with lively feedback in the morning, after 

8 everyone has gotten their coffee. 

9 So just to let you know what's on the 

10 table, the scope of the negotiations is obviously 

11 something we've talked about throughout. You know, 

12 we can set the scope. DOE has the ability to set the 

13 scope narrower than the actual covered product 

14 definition if it so chooses. 

15 Most of our regulations do not do that. 

16 There are a select few though that do, for a variety 

17 of reasons. So we just wanted to let you know that 

18 that's an option. 

19 So potential scope. Okay. So what you 

20 see at the top in green is the scope of our -- is our 

21 NODA that we just put out. So we put out draft 

22 analysis that, at least in the green portions, 
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1 encompasses these different categories of fans. That 

2 which you see in orange was not encompassed in the 

3 NODA, and then you can see the market share estimates 

4 from that. 

5 We do believe that all of these categories 

6 would meet our definition that we showed at the 

7 outset. But this is something for discussion. 

8 MR. WOLF: This is Mike Wolf, Greenheck. 

9 The market share numbers, are those in terms of 

10 number of units, dollars or connected load, or what 

11 is that? 

12 MS. ARMSTRONG: Annual sales units. 

13 (Off mic comments.) 

14 MS. IYAMA: It was mainly based on a 

15 market report from IHS, and also confidential sales 

16 data from (off mic), and they're estimates. 

17 MR. BOSWELL: Greg. 

18 MR. WAGNER: First, who's IHS? 

19 MS. IYAMA: It's a market research 

20 company. 

21 MR. WAGNER: Okay. Is that market report 

22 available? 
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1 MS. IYAMA: It is available, but it's not 

2 a public document. 

3 MR. WAGNER: Okay. I guess I don't know 

4 how to comment then at all on this particular -- 

5 MS. IYAMA: They work -- I know that they 

6 work closely with industry -- 

7 MR. WAGNER: What industry? 

8 (Off mic comments.) 

9 MR. SMITH: Yeah. The IHS study was 

10 commissioned by AMCA, and is available from AMCA to 

11 anybody that wants to buy it. It cost us money, so 

12 we charge for it. 

13 MR. WAGNER: Okay. So that survey covered 

14 AMCA members or what? 

15 MR. SMITH: No, no, no. This is an 

16 independent market research company who did this 

17 study for fan markets, not just in the United States 

18 but throughout the world. So it's a market study 

19 that shows markets by region and by major country. 

20 MR. WAGNER: Okay. Can you tell me then 

21 what the total number of fans this represents, in 

22 terms of like an annual sales number? 
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1 MS. IYAMA: For the U.S. and for those in 

2 green, it's about 650,000 units, if I remember 

3 correctly. 

4 MR. WAGNER: Okay. I will tell you right 

5 here that we sell way more than that every year. 

6 MR. SMITH: Okay. 

7 MR. WAGNER: We alone. So that market 

8 doesn't include any of the products we make, and that 

9 goes for -- there's a range a of other folks here 

10 that make a lot of fans that we don't sell all the 

11 fans to them. 

12 MR. BOSWELL: Laura. 

13 MS. PETRILLO-GROH: It's been covered to 

14 some extent, but I do -- there is concern that this 

15 fan market data is not complete and comprehensive for 

16 all the stakeholders involved with this rulemaking. 

17 MS. IYAMA: Just one thing, all I'll let 

18 -- Sanaee. These were also, and it's going to come 

19 later in the slides, but it's only starting up to a 

20 certain size. So this may be why the numbers may 

21 seem low. 

22 MS. ARMSTRONG: But I mean -- 
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1 (Off mic comments.) 

2 MS. IYAMA: So I think we'll get to that 

3 (off mic). 

4 MS. PETRILLO-GROH: Just in response. It 

5 would be very helpful if y'all prepared for tomorrow 

6 a group summary of the scope of what is included in 

7 this market analysis, and Wade, if you'd forward on a 

8 link to the purchase, to where we could purchase that 

9 IHS report, and we can at least then consider it, to 

10 see if this is complete and comprehensive for what 

11 you're trying to cover. Thank you. 

12 MR. SMITH: Okay. So I'd be happy to do 

13 that. The first thing to say and well, I'll say what 

14 AMCA provided, right. So AMCA provided, under cover 

15 of confidentiality agreement to the DOE contractors, 

16 our estimate of market by type of fan, and we focused 

17 on connected load, meaning horsepower, and this -- 

18 the source of this information was our members. We 

19 did a survey of our members, and we analyzed the data 

20 that we had and determined that we had a percentage 

21 of the market by each category, some categories 

22 larger than others. 
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1 But collectively, it represented 46 

2 percent of the market. Okay. So now let me just say 

3 that relatively early in our discussions, we focused 

4 our attention on fans that were one horsepower and 

5 greater. In the survey, we collected data on fans 

6 that were less than one horsepower, and I should tell 

7 you that the fans in our database, about 85 percent 

8 of them are less than one horsepower. 

9 But collectively, they represent only 

10 about 20 percent of the connected load of the data 

11 that we collected, right. So 15 to 20 percent of the 

12 fans. I'd have to go back and look at my numbers, 

13 but it's not a -- I'm close. 15 to 20 percent of the 

14 fans that are in the database represent about 80 

15 percent of the connected load, and so thereafter, we 

16 focused our analysis on fans that were one to two 

17 hundred horsepower. 

18 We also followed the guidance of the 

19 framework document, and ignored forward curve fans 

20 that are embedded inside regulated unitary equipment. 

21 So the market estimates that we turned over to the 

22 Department of Energy did not include those forward 
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1 curved fans, okay. 

2 More recently, we had a look back and did 

3 our own estimate on the connected load of those 

4 forward curve fans, and as you pointed out a moment 

5 ago, it's a big number. Since AHRI is at the table 

6 and representing the companies that make and sell 

7 those forward curve fans, we didn't really think it 

8 was our place to advance our estimate of that market. 

9 That's really for those other companies to 

10 do and AHRI to do. So we have not provided that 

11 information to anybody, but we did send a notice to 

12 the Department of Energy contractors, informing them 

13 that our market estimate provided previously did not 

14 include those fans, and that it was deficient 

15 relative to the analysis in that respect. 

16 (Off mic comments.) 

17 MS. ARMSTRONG: Great. So I think to that 

18 point, that's one of the reasons we're here. We 

19 welcome data on exactly how you would change that. 

20 So if this market share would shift because certain 

21 fans are, you know, certain data wasn't available at 

22 the time when we did the NODA, well we're here. 
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1 We welcome that data. We're happy to 

2 provide the same confidential mechanisms that we 

3 provided to AMCA, in order to be able to submit that 

4 data. We'd be happy to consider it and revise as 

5 appropriate. 

6 MR. BOSWELL: Laura. 

7 MS. PETRILLO-GROH: I think we need to 

8 know a little bit more about what would actually be 

9 proposed to be covered, to be able to provide that 

10 information, with the framework document scope of 

11 being 125 watts, but excluding fans and regulated 

12 products. 

13 There was, the scope has changed 

14 considerably now to -- if it includes regulated 

15 products, and there's been a lot of advocacy for fans 

16 over one horsepower, you know. We're in flux about 

17 fans in the specific products that may or may not be 

18 covered. I mean this could be, you know, this is, 

19 you know, 15, 20 -- 15 different types of equipment 

20 that could potentially be impacted or not impacted. 

21 Getting that data from those hundreds of 

22 manufacturers could potentially present quite a 
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1 problem, especially when we're not quite sure what 

2 we're looking at. So I really do appreciate you guys 

3 going back and figuring out what's actually included 

4 in these numbers. 

5 And then we might be able to help figure 

6 out, plug the holes. But to do -- to cast a wide net 

7 over such a large trough of manufacturers may be -- 

8 may not be practical. 

9 MR. BOSWELL: Gary. 

10 MR. FERNSTROM: So this is Gary. I heard 

11 the discussion going on in terms of connected load. 

12 But what's really of interest to us is energy use, 

13 which is the product of the connected load times the 

14 hours of operation or in consideration of the load 

15 curve. I'd just like to point that out. 

16 If we have big products that aren't being 

17 used much, that's of less interest than a lot of 

18 small products that are being used a lot and add up 

19 to a lot of energy. 

20 MS. ARMSTRONG: So I think one thing to 

21 say here is we're in a negotiated rule for a reason. 

22 You guys get as much of a say as I do. This isn't 
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1 necessarily a public meeting, and I'm not saying this 

2 is DOE's proposal. We're here to figure this out 

3 together. That's why we have voting rules, that's 

4 why we have -- 

5 So this is up for discussion. The scope 

6 is up for discussion. So while DOE has done some 

7 analysis and we did that in part to help some of the 

8 private negotiations that were ongoing, and we did 

9 provide analysis, DOE hasn't made a policy opinion, 

10 or hasn't stated a policy opinion yet in terms of 

11 what its proposed scope would be. 

12 We haven't put out a proposed rule yet. 

13 We are hoping that this process will help do that for 

14 us. So really it's up to this committee to determine 

15 scope. I mean I'm not here to present to you. I 

16 thought the slides would be helpful to spark 

17 discussion. But by no means should you be reading 

18 this as DOE's proposal. 

19 MR. BOSWELL: Wade. 

20 MR. SMITH: Well so we're prepared to make 

21 some proposals, right, and can tackle it however 

22 you'd like. The consensus recommendation that was 
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1 created between efficiency advocates and AMCA members 

2 is reflected in the slide that you have up there, had 

3 up there. We recommended not covering crossflow 

4 fans, safety fans, induced flow fans, circulating fans 

5 and a few others. 

6 We also recommended that the coverage 

7 range from one to two hundred horsepower inclusive, 

8 and at the time that we prepared our joint note of 

9 comment which described this recommendation, we were 

10 not clear amongst ourselves, between the two -- 

11 between the people that were in the discussions, 

12 about where in the continuum from wire to air these 

13 horsepower limits would be applied. 

14 And so internal to AMCA, we've had quite a 

15 bit of debate and difference of opinion on that 

16 question, and have come to a consensus, which we're 

17 happy to share. I should add that the advocates have 

18 not been part of those discussions, and so this will 

19 be the first time they've seen it. 

20 But we can tackle some of those questions. 

21 Just as a general statement, how does everybody maybe 

22 around the table feel about a scope of coverage from 
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1 one to two hundred horsepower inclusive? 

2 MALE PARTICIPANT: Can I clarify? That's 

3 one horsepower to 200 horsepower, not 100 horsepower 

4 to 200 horsepower. 

5 MR. SMITH: Yeah. That's one horsepower 

6 to 200 horsepower, yeah. 

7 MR. BOSWELL: Steve. 

8 MALE PARTICIPANT: No, no, no. It's one 

9 single. 

10 (Off mic comments.) 

11 MR. BOSWELL: Gary. 

12 MR. FERNSTROM: This is Gary. So with due 

13 respect and consideration for the discussions that 

14 we've previously had with the fan folks, it occurs to 

15 me at the moment that if the lower limit is one 

16 horsepower, it would probably not -- the regulation 

17 that is -- would not cover the kinds of fans we see 

18 in residential and small commercial HVAC equipment, 

19 which is an enormous energy use when you multiply the 

20 connected load of those fans times the number of 

21 them, the individual load times the number of them. 

22 I don't think we'd want to summarily 
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1 exclude that without at least taking a look at it, in 

2 terms of the energy saving and cost impacts. 

3 MR. HAUER: Armin Hauer. These proposed 

4 limit has two problems or two discussion points. One 

5 is what is a horsepower, right? Is it shaft power or 

6 is it air power or is it electrical input power, 

7 and is it fan shaft or is it motor shaft? And then 

8 the other point is that maybe the limits are too 

9 tight, you know. Maybe we could increase the range 

10 of coverage. 

11 Imagine that in Europe it's 125 watts, the 

12 smallest fans that are being regulated, and there is 

13 a tendency to go even lower than that, like to 30 

14 watts. Also, there was discussion about industrial 

15 and commercial fans. Just imagine that in a data 

16 center you have these computer racks. 

17 There might be hundreds of thousands of 

18 small fans inside, six inch fans, and these are -- in 

19 my book, I would count them as maybe even industrial, 

20 right. Why would we exempt those small fans that are 

21 used in the thousands? 

22 MR. BOSWELL: Mark, did you -- okay. 
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1 Wade. I'm sorry, Joanna. 

2 MS. MAUER: This is Joanna. I was just 

3 going to say that the one to two hundred horsepower 

4 is consistent with our discussions, and consistent 

5 with the joint recommendation that we've made to DOE 

6 with AMCA. 

7 MR. SMITH: Yeah. The argument for 

8 limiting the range of regulation on the low end is to 

9 reduce the impact on manufacturers. The first 

10 observation is that if 85 percent of the models sold 

11 are below one horsepower, then we are focusing our 

12 investments as manufacturers in product redesigns to 

13 improve efficiency on the larger units where there 

14 are fewer models to contend with. 

15 At the same time, the connected load above 

16 -- one horsepower and above is quite a bit larger 

17 than below one horsepower, and there's -- I mean I'll 

18 let others comment on this. But I don't think, Gary, 

19 that the operating hours below one horsepower are 

20 probably even as great as the average operating hours 

21 of a fan above one horsepower. 

22 So I don't -- I don't think that there's 
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1 any discontinuity that would cause the energy use in 

2 the connected load to be different proportionally, 

3 okay. And so that was the arguments. But I would 

4 also add that those arguments were advanced in an 

5 environment in which we were not considering 

6 regulated unitary equipment. 

7 If you add regulated unitary equipment in, 

8 as you point out Gary, the assessment of the number 

9 of models and the connected load is altered 

10 absolutely. 

11 MR. BOSWELL: Laura and then Greg. 

12 MS. PETRILLO-GROH: Do you happen to know 

13 what the impact is of fans that are one horsepower, 

14 if we were to look at fans only over one horsepower 

15 from our database? 

16 MR. SMITH: This is Wade. Yes. 

17 MS. PETRILLO-GROH: Can you show that? 

18 MR. SMITH: I can. I'd have to do a 

19 little homework, but yeah we have -- 

20 MS. PETRILLO-GROH: Tomorrow would be 

21 fine. I just would like to know. 

22 MR. SMITH: Sure, yeah. Well, I have to 
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1 be a little bit careful to generalize the data, so 

2 that it doesn't violate the authority that I have to 

3 reveal market information into the public domain. 

4 But I think I can answer that question. If I'm not 

5 mistaken, those of you who have been in negotiations, 

6 perhaps you remember. 

7 But I think didn't we say that one 

8 horsepower was about 12 percent of the total 

9 connected load? I think it's on that order of 

10 magnitude. I'll confirm that number tomorrow. Again 

11 very -- 

12 MALE PARTICIPANT: Can you define the one 

13 horsepower? 

14 MR. SMITH: Well, we'll raise that -- 

15 we'll get to that question in a moment. 

16 (Off mic comments.) 

17 MR. SMITH: I'll answer you in a second. 

18 MR. BOSWELL: Greg. 

19 MR. SMILEY: You're sitting over there 

20 tomorrow. 

21 MR. SMITH: Yeah. Again, it's important 

22 to say that when we look at this Laura, we were 
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1 looking at it with a blind eye toward regulated 

2 unitary equipment, okay. 

3 MS. PETRILLO-GROH: That's right. I mean 

4 there's other equipment that could possibly be 

5 impacted that is also regulated. So -- 

6 MR. BOSWELL: Okay, Greg and then -- 

7 MR. SMITH: A blind eye toward regulated 

8 equipment, sorry. 

9 MR. WAGNER: You know, the same question 

10 about the power. Where is that power being measured 

11 is critical to this discussion. But a lot of the 

12 residential and the below one horsepower are already 

13 covered under other regulations that cover the 

14 equipment, both air conditioning systems as well as 

15 now in the furnace fan regulation. So the vast 

16 majority of those are covered under those standards. 

17 MR. SMITH: Okay. So what are people 

18 thinking when they answer the question is this a one 

19 horsepower fan, and in our database, we requested 

20 this information -- this is Wade Smith -- in our 

21 database we requested this information from our 

22 member companies, and the -- 
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1 And we did it without a crisp definition 

2 right, and the general response is that it's a one 

3 horsepower motor. But in the database, we have not 

4 -- we have data that describes the motor capacity, 

5 but also describe the fan shaft power requirement. 

6 And so in our analysis of the data, we 

7 based the one horsepower limit on the fan shaft input 

8 power to the fan. In our discussions recently about 

9 the administrative aspect of that, it became very 

10 clear that we have some member companies who don't 

11 know what the fan shaft power is, and consider it an 

12 unreasonable burden to determine what the fan shaft 

13 horsepower is. 

14 After some discussion, the membership at 

15 least of this committee agreed and suggested instead 

16 that we base the limit on the watts input to the fan 

17 assembly. So if you sell a fan that doesn't include 

18 the motor, for example, you get to that answer by 

19 using the default values that DOE will ultimately 

20 document for us. 

21 And since our analysis is based on one 

22 horsepower fan shaft, we would seek to translate one 
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1 horsepower at the fan shaft to the watts input to the 

2 assembly based on these default values. 

3 So that the intent behind our agreement 

4 with the efficiency advocates of starting at one 

5 horsepower is met, but instead is described as watts 

6 in and manufacturers of fans, large, small, driven 

7 fans, fans driven with external rotor motors, fans 

8 driven with EC motors, etcetera, etcetera, are able 

9 to easily accommodate a regulation which is on -- 

10 which is described on that basis. 

11 So that's at the low end. We talk about 

12 the 200 horsepower end separately, but we'll just -- 

13 I'll just confine my answer to that. 

14 (Off mic comments.) 

15 MR. SMITH: Well, the basis of our 

16 discussion was shaft power to the fan, but ultimately 

17 since that is not easy to determine in some fan 

18 designs, we want to translate that into wire input 

19 power as a different figure that's nominally 

20 equivalent to one fan horsepower. 

21 MR. FLY: This is Mark Fly from AAON. But 

22 the fan power -- I mean the shaft power to the fan is 
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1 going to be very much dependent on the point of 

2 operation of that fan, and the speed on which it 

3 runs. So I mean you're really not talking about the 

4 fan impeller anymore. You have to assume a speed and 

5 assume some point of operation on the fan curve. 

6 MR. SMITH: Yes. 

7 MS. PETRILLO-GROH: I'd be a little 

8 concerned that the -- Laura Petrillo-Groh, AHRI. I'd 

9 be a little concerned that the measuring it as watts 

10 input to the fan assembly not only, you know, you'd 

11 have to look at the point of operation, but you'd 

12 also have to include quite a few other power 

13 components to a no amp product. I don't know if you 

14 could separate out fans to the -- or watts to the fan 

15 assembly without that system effect of the fan in the 

16 assembly. 

17 MR. BOSWELL: Dan did you have -- 

18 MR. HARTLEIN: I just want to reinforce 

19 the fact that there are fan manufacturers that don't 

20 have a fan shaft or a motor shaft, and those are 

21 electrically driven products. And so this is kind of 

22 the reality that took us to the fact that the only 
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1 obvious way to sort that out was the power in. 

2 And the ability for a manufacturer to use 

3 reasonably and mutually acceptable factors in order 

4 to estimate that, if they weren't delivering that, 

5 would give you a fair way to set that standard for 

6 everybody. 

7 The second thing I want to throw out, and 

8 just so you start thinking about this a little bit, 

9 on the other end of the limit, wherever we set that, 

10 let's assume 200 horsepower for a minute, it's quite 

11 possible that a less effective fan is 210 horsepower, 

12 and therefore unregulated. 

13 The more effective fan is 170 horsepower 

14 and falls under regulation. So I only give you that 

15 as maybe something to chew on overnight or tonight 

16 with a drink, so because I'm not sure what we're 

17 going to do with that. But that's another challenge 

18 on the other end, so thank you. 

19 MR. FERNSTROM: So this is Gary. When we 

20 talked about the one horsepower lower limit 

21 previously in our discussions, without so much regard 

22 for unitary equipment, I was thinking one horsepower 
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1 meant the motor horsepower that you'd see on the 

2 nameplate of the motor that would drive the fan. 

3 If we do what you guys are talking about, 

4 and I don't have a problem with thinking about it 

5 electrically in principle, but directionally what it 

6 would do is make the smaller-sized fan bigger because 

7 -- 

8 (Off mic comments.) 

9 MR. FERNSTROM: Okay. So -- 

10 MR. SMITH: We're flexible in that regard. 

11 It's not our intent to change it. 

12 MR. FERNSTROM: Okay. So it seems to me, 

13 thinking about it electrically if there's good reason 

14 would be fine, so long as we don't lose our concept 

15 of what the smaller size would be. 

16 MR. SMITH: Right, true. 

17 MR. WAGNER: North American motors are 

18 rated by the shaft power, which you know, for a one 

19 horsepower drive often, you know, it is the same as 

20 what goes into the fan itself. So I mean it's a 

21 minor difference - 

22 (Off mic comments.) 
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1 MR. WAGNER: Yeah, right. But when 

2 they're rated in horsepower it's a mechanical power. 

3 MALE PARTICIPANT: You want to answer? Go 

4 ahead. 

5 MR. HARTLEIN: As we reach into industrial 

6 markets, this is Dan Hartlein, ahh yes, it's quite 

7 common for us to have a specification that requires 

8 the spread between the duty point and the motor 

9 rating to be fairly substantial. So if I have a fan 

10 that draws 170 horsepower, I very likely could be 

11 compelled by specification to ship that with a motor 

12 that has a nameplate capacity of 250. 

13 So therefore my fan falls neatly in the 

14 regulated arena, but my motor nameplate does not, and 

15 that's a quite common practice in the market, as you 

16 reach beyond the lower horsepower. So we build these 

17 with a cushion, the motor manufacturer themselves. I 

18 know NEMA's been fairly sophisticated in this, and I 

19 think Rob's in the room. 

20 So you know, it's quite common that a 

21 motor with a safety factor loses the safety factor 

22 under variable frequency drive conditions. So the 
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1 1.2 safety factor built into the motor becomes a 1.0 

2 under variable frequency drive conditions. So 

3 there's many, many issues here that need to be sorted 

4 through. But it's the motor nameplate itself is 

5 problematic for the industries. 

6 MR. SMITH: There's a growing trend to 

7 employ motors which are not rated, and for which 

8 there is no rating standard, I should add. So if one 

9 wanted to rate them, what would that rating be based 

10 on? Of course, the watts in is pretty crisp and easy 

11 to understand and find, and so that's where we ended 

12 up, because it's more universally applied. 

13 MR. HARTLEIN: Dan Hartlein. I could add 

14 one more comment to that, to just reinforce that. 

15 Those motors, I think Wade was referring to EC motors 

16 or so-called electronically and air over motors. In 

17 the EC motor arena, because it has a flat efficiency 

18 curve across the speed range, it doesn't drop off 

19 like an induction motor does. 

20 It's actually quite common for the exact 

21 same piece of hardware to come with four different 

22 horsepower nameplates. So that's done, because it's 
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1 based on the draw, and in that case, it has the exact 

2 same motor efficiency. It doesn't fall off. So that 

3 ten horsepower EC motor might be rated as a four, a 

4 six, an eight and a ten. And I've even seen some 

5 that were being rated mid, like five and a half was 

6 the nameplate rating on the motor. So just to bring 

7 that up. 

8 MR. FERNSTROM: So this is Gary. This 

9 sounds like this offers good opportunity for us to 

10 think about over the evening. 

11 MS. ARMSTRONG: I was just going to say 

12 the same thing. 

13 MR. BOSWELL: There's one more comment. 

14 MR. ROY: Aniruddh Roy, Goodman. So since 

15 we're all going to think a little bit tonight, I 

16 would like to propose that in Slides 51 and 52, we 

17 consider adding text which was presented in DOE's 

18 framework document in 2013, where it says 

19 specifically "DOE is not considering standards for 

20 fans that are a component in regulated commercial 

21 products in this rulemaking." 

22 I would like to modify that sentence. 
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1 Instead of saying "commercial products in this 

2 rulemaking," I would say that are a component in 

3 regulated products under 10 C.F.R. Part 430 or 10 

4 C.F.R. Part 431, given the one to two hundred 

5 horsepower discussion here. 

6 MS. ARMSTRONG: So I think to add to that 

7 for people to think about, and I think one of the 

8 reasons why you've seen the Department leave that 

9 open, is from the point of fan manufacturer and well, 

10 from the point of the fan, we're talking about their 

11 fan, impeller, structure, housing assembly. 

12 How would you know if it's included into 

13 -- and I don't need necessarily an answer right now. 

14 But a hard line as to how you would know if it's 

15 ultimately included in OEM equipment or not, and do 

16 the same models ever get sold into both? Are they 

17 design differences? Are they the same categories. 

18 I think DOE would like to hear if you're 

19 asking for your products to potentially not be 

20 considered. We would need some strong evidence as to 

21 how they're different. 

22 (Off mic comments.) 
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1 MR. FINE: Go ahead. Identify yourself 

2 please. 

3 MR. BOTELER: This is Rob Boteler with 

4 Nidec, and I chair the Energy Committee for NEMA. 

5 From the motor side, we've grappled with this. We've 

6 had similar conversations with Ashley and John about 

7 this, and the point she's trying to make, we 

8 acknowledged and if we have a motor and it's embedded 

9 in another piece of product, it's always covered by 

10 the motor regulation. 

11 If it wouldn't be, we would have no way to 

12 enforce, and one of the things that the motor 

13 manufacturers have learned after almost 20 years of 

14 regulation, is that enforcement is an issue. You 

15 need to be thinking about it early in the process, 

16 and not leaving holes where certain manufacturers 

17 offshore will take advantage, because they will take 

18 advantage. 

19 MR. WAGNER: Greg Wagner. Once again, 

20 with regard to knowing where things go, I can't speak 

21 for the rest of them, but 100 percent of our product 

22 we know where, who. It's keyed to particular 
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1 equipment it goes into. It's known, traceable down 

2 to the date code and hour and minute that it's 

3 produced. 

4 MS. ARMSTRONG: So this is Ashley from 

5 DOE, and that's helpful. I think we can have those 

6 discussions tomorrow morning. But I think if you 

7 were me and not you, how would I know across the 

8 board, equitably in the market? 

9 MR. WAGNER: Well the same -- 

10 MS. ARMSTRONG: As it stands right now. 

11 MR. WAGNER: Well the same way you're 

12 going got do it anyhow, right? 

13 MS. ARMSTRONG: Well, the easiest thing is 

14 just to say everything's in, because they don't have 

15 to do it at all. 

16 MR. WAGNER: Well sure. You still have to 

17 enforce it. So how are you going to enforce it? So 

18 you're going to have to enforce it by looking at what 

19 is out in the marketplace, and finding the product 

20 that is not compliant with the regulation, and that 

21 product that's not compliant with the regulation will 

22 be identified by its use outside of the scope of 
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1 this. 

2 In other words, it's not compliant in 

3 meeting the efficiency, and it's covered by this 

4 regulation. The manufacturer would be identified 

5 then, right? 

6 MS. ARMSTRONG: So yeah, but you made an 

7 assumption there that I know if it's covered by this 

8 regulation. What I'm asking for is discrete evidence 

9 of how I would know it's covered by this regulation? 

10 You know, he's asking for a blanket -- a blanket 

11 exception for OEM equipment, and what I am asking for 

12 in return, and I'm not saying DOE yet has formulated 

13 its position on this matter. 

14 But I think in other products, we've seen 

15 areas where ultimately this has become a major 

16 enforceability issue, and if you can't distinguish 

17 design differences and just via manufacturer claims, 

18 well I'm 100 percent sure that your claims are truth, 

19 accurate, etcetera. There may be someone that's not, 

20 and their claims shouldn't just be getting them out 

21 of it. 

22 So I'm asking that -- I'm asking you for 
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1 distinct design differences at the point of putting 

2 together that impeller and housing and associated 

3 parts. I don't necessarily -- this discussion could 

4 drag on until 5:00 a.m. tomorrow morning. But I 

5 think that's what I want you to think about. 

6 MR. WAGNER: Right. Well I'm just saying 

7 how do you find it today? You're going to find a 

8 non-compliant product by finding something in the 

9 marketplace that doesn't meet the performance 

10 standards you require, through some auditing or 

11 whatever kind of basis, right? 

12 MS. ARMSTRONG: Absolutely. But if the 

13 point of whether it's even subject to the regulation 

14 is based upon a claim, then all somebody has to do is 

15 say "I claim I'm not" to get out. It doesn't even 

16 become an issue of enforcement. That's the 

17 fundamental problem. 

18 MR. WAGNER: I'm not following that, but 

19 okay. 

20 MR. FLY: This is Mark Fly with AAON. 

21 Just one distinction to think about, the difference 

22 between motors and fans is that when you take an 
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1 impeller and you put it into a product, a packaged 

2 product, because of the system effects that happen on 

3 that fan you can fundamentally change the performance 

4 of that fan and how it operates. 

5 So you know, a motor when you put it into 

6 a product generally doesn't change its 

7 characteristics, but a fan does. So I think that is 

8 one distinction that we have to be very clear on, and 

9 it's going to be very difficult to extract some of 

10 these fans from the products from which they are in, 

11 to test in some kind of standard, and especially if 

12 that product is, you know, like for instance 

13 condenser fans that are in a product. 

14 That's already a regulated product, and 

15 that condenser fan is a very critical part of the 

16 energy consumption of that particular piece of the 

17 product, which is already regulated. 

18 MR. BOSWELL: Dan. 

19 MR. HARTLEIN: Yeah. I think one 

20 additional thought I know that we've bantered about 

21 on this issue is that -- it's Dan Hartlein by the way 

22 -- it's very, very likely that regulated equipment, 
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1 this will become a bigger part of the market, not a 

2 smaller part. 

3 So as regulations expand through time, the 

4 potential to have application-dependent metrics in 

5 the area where if I ship it to this customer, it's 

6 covered, and if I ship it to this customer it's not. 

7 I think that increases over time. So I 

8 think this problem actually gets bigger, not smaller, 

9 because of advancements in regulation levels across 

10 the multiple industries that you're covering. 

11 So that would be a concern of mine, is 

12 that, you know, if you get into products like a 

13 double-width air foil, which are occasionally 

14 embedded in this product and occasionally not, I've 

15 got a situation that to us, and frankly the 

16 distribution channel for us many times doesn't 

17 change. 

18 So I sell it through the exact same 

19 distribution channel. It has a different 

20 application, and while that's not a specific issue 

21 with where the -- with where the regulations lie 

22 today, I could see it absolutely becoming one 
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1 tomorrow as those regulations expand. So we're going 

2 to -- I hate to see us in a situation where we have 

3 to manage that. Thank you. 

4 MS. ARMSTRONG: I think with that, we all 

5 have some thinking, critical thinking maybe to do 

6 tonight or at happy hour, whatever. But with that, 

7 we thank you all for participating and we've made it 

8 through day one. So hopefully everybody is excited 

9 to come back tomorrow. 

10 (Off mic comments.) 

11 MS. ARMSTRONG: Oh yeah, sorry. I didn't 

12 even know. I'm just used to you having it up. 

13 MALE PARTICIPANT: I can hold it until 

14 tomorrow. 

15 MR. BOSWELL: Okay. So nine o'clock 

16 tomorrow morning, same place. 

17 MR. SMITH: Well, maybe I should make it 

18 tonight. 

19 (Laughter.) 

20 MR. SMITH: Okay. So this is Wade. 

21 There's basically two kinds of fans, well three kinds 

22 of fans that are embedded. There's propeller fans 
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1 that go on condensers; there's forward curve fans 

2 that are generally used for supply fans, sometimes 

3 exhaust; and there's what I'll call plug fans, 

4 backward-inclined plug fans, and the concern that 

5 Ashley is expressing are shared by AMCA members. 

6 The place where this is most notable is on 

7 the backward-inclined fans. A backward-inclined fan 

8 is used in a lot of unregulated products. It's used 

9 standing alone in field-installed systems, and it's 

10 used in regulated product. 

11 So again, if you go to the production line 

12 and you see a 20-inch backward-inclined plug fan 

13 going down the line, is it regulated? I don't know 

14 the answer to that question. So that's one issue. 

15 The second concern that our members have 

16 is that it's our estimate that about 99 percent of 

17 the connected load of forward curve fans are 

18 embedded. They're not all embedded in regulated 

19 unitary equipment, but they go inside other pieces of 

20 equipment, and that's a very high percentage. 

21 So if they were exempt, and let's say 85 

22 percent of them are in regulated equipment, if 
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1 they're exempt and you go to the production line and 

2 you see a forward curve fan, 85 percent of the time 

3 it would be headed for a regulated piece of 

4 equipment, which encourages the idea of 

5 differentiating fans embedded in regulated equipment 

6 as forward curve fans. 

7 So you know, if you just drew the map and 

8 said I'm going to describe a forward curve fan, and 

9 I'm going to suggest that forward curve fans should 

10 be exempt from this regulation, since 85 percent of 

11 them are embedded inside regulated unitary equipment, 

12 then forward curve fans get a pass. 

13 The fear, of course, is that forward curve 

14 fans, which are sometimes used for exhaust fans and 

15 other free-standing applications, are oftentimes used 

16 in unregulated equipment, would have a pass, and 

17 therefore would have -- would not be burdened with 

18 the cost and efficiency implications of a DOE 

19 regulation, while their competitors, 

20 backward-inclined fans logically, would have that 

21 burden. 

22 That's an unacceptable situation to those 
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1 of us that make backward-inclined fans. So I'd just 

2 have you thinking about these issues. It's not an 

3 easy thing to get after, okay. 

4 MR. ROY: Aniruddh Roy, Goodman. This is 

5 just one small comment. I would like DOE to think 

6 about or explore a possibility to incorporate that 

7 into the reporting structure for fans, that will be 

8 required in the future for regulated fans, and maybe 

9 have a disclosure, maybe a column where the 

10 manufacturer declares whether that particular model 

11 is being supplied to an OEM or not that is regulated, 

12 that is manufacturing that regulated product, just as 

13 a disclosure. 

14 Because if we do not address this issue, 

15 then like I mentioned in the beginning of the 

16 meeting, an OEM could be -- that is making a 

17 regulated product currently could be subject to two 

18 sets of reporting requirements, and we already know 

19 how burdensome it is for unitary products or other 

20 products like water source heat pumps or PTACs. 

21 So just something, you know, a suggestion 

22 for DOE to consider tonight. 
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1 (Off mic comments.) 

2 MR. SMILEY: I just have one short 

3 comment. Bill Smiley, Trane. I was just going to 

4 add one short comment. When we talk about excluding 

5 regulated products, products that are already 

6 regulated for energy consumption, we're not talking 

7 about excluding a fan type. 

8 We're talking about regulated products. 

9 We're not saying let's exclude FC fans. It's just to 

10 exclude products that are already regulated in totals 

11 for energy consumption, because we're trying to 

12 reduce total energy consumption, total electrical 

13 power consumption. 

14 MS. ARMSTRONG: I can hold mine until the 

15 morning. 

16 (Whereupon, at 5:00 p.m., the meeting was 

17 adjourned, to reconvene on Thursday, May 6, 2015 at 

18 9:00 a.m.) 

19

20

21

22
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assumed 48:18

assuming 62:13

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assumption 271:7

assumptions 125:14

assure 80:21 81:9

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attend 72:1 83:10

93:15 159:9

attendance 42:4

49:9 74:21,22

75:6 148:4,5,6

151:15,16

attendants 88:20

attendees 52:1

attending 73:16,20

attention 21:4 248:4

attorney 14:13

attributable 19:7

attribute 80:7

attributes 154:10

154:16

audience 36:22

198:8

audio 11:19

auditing 272:10

auditorium 23:5

augments 29:13

August 67:4,12

68:21 107:5

authority 63:7 64:5

64:7,21 65:8,11

89:21 153:1 154:3

203:10 207:4,8,13

213:21 258:2

authorized 68:7

automobile 236:14

automobiles 165:3

Availabilities

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Availability 203:4

available 27:6 33:13

34:3 74:8,12 97:2

119:17,18 120:16

122:21 123:1

128:14 138:9

141:2,17 155:11

170:21 171:3

244:22 245:1,10

249:21

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average 256:20

avoid 64:2 164:22

avoided 115:3

aware 11:21 22:14

29:7 31:11 42:1

42:10 77:12 79:14

89:2 191:19

awareness 2:20 8:5

21:12

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15:21 20:5 39:18

47:1,15,20 52:3

53:19 58:16,19

69:1,7 70:22 96:7

97:13,17 99:3

102:15,19 104:9

109:4,15 110:1

116:9 118:19

134:3 146:21

148:16 161:2

166:11 168:16

175:21 176:15,17

176:18 179:22

180:5,20 183:20

186:1 190:5,12

191:1 194:8 196:8

202:12 207:5

208:1 209:3

210:12 212:21

221:4 230:9

231:19 232:12

239:4 241:21

248:12 249:2

251:3 275:9

background 14:3

24:5 102:5 136:11

backgrounds

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backing 108:8

backs 37:18 132:21

133:1

backward-inclined

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277:20 278:1

bad 189:18

balance 105:3 140:1

140:3,7 142:16

143:7,14,18

154:12,14 169:20

balanced 169:17

Baltimore 11:2

bantered 273:20

bar 57:16 95:2,9

bare 226:16 238:13

238:16

base 43:3 260:16

based 48:8 52:9

89:5 94:7 199:6

218:16,20 230:2

241:18 244:14

260:7,21 261:2

266:9 267:1

272:14

basic 225:13

basically 12:1 27:13

31:15 79:8 101:14

102:7 110:11,12

118:15 135:18

169:19 204:12

275:21

basis 53:1 108:10

108:11 109:6,9

155:1 261:10,15

272:11

bathroom 7:21

164:8

bearing 222:13

bearings 216:17

217:7 222:14

237:21

beating 167:4

Becky 38:19

becoming 27:13

274:22

bed 200:12

beginning 30:10

198:15 278:15

behalf 72:9 78:2

83:6 87:20 115:8

159:7

belief 32:7

believe 33:17 80:9

85:3 99:3 128:16

143:9 168:14

174:4 205:7

231:15 237:20

238:3 244:5

Beloit 2:14 10:9

beneficial 77:11

197:14

benefit 70:1 112:16

118:12,12 146:4

Berkeley 3:18 9:5

Berner 2:19 9:17

151:8 160:9

171:16

best 130:16 208:4,5

219:17

Betsy 9:1 38:6 65:4

65:9,13 101:16

102:3 113:7 143:5

157:2 168:19

169:11 185:6

207:10

Betsy's 65:19

better 5:17,18 27:3

68:19 71:21 85:3

91:15 94:2 112:9

140:12 146:7

157:4,9 171:22

191:20 194:10

216:13 224:13

beyond 142:17

143:3 265:16

big 97:3 116:4

153:4 160:5 172:7

173:2 197:20

249:5 251:16

bigger 179:10

180:22 213:7

241:15 264:6

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Bill 7:4 67:13 92:6,8

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108:20 126:11,12

131:12 134:10,11

139:4 227:20

229:8 279:3

Bill's 104:7

bit 4:22 5:13 6:4,6

11:20 14:8 17:5

74:2 87:5 96:8

97:14 113:6 129:6

136:2 162:13

167:17 177:8

178:1 185:21

187:2 189:8

193:21 202:2

220:11 226:12

241:16 250:8

253:15 256:16

258:1 263:8

267:15

blanket 271:10,10

blatantly 17:5

blind 89:4 259:1,7

block 38:5 46:1 53:8

53:11 54:14 55:7

55:9 56:1 57:14

84:16 178:16,22

186:10,17,22

187:4 188:12,18

190:22 192:17

blocking 45:21

150:16 176:10

blocks 176:10

blow 126:17

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blowers 1:2 4:5,9

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Boteler 2:7 10:6,6

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bother 64:17

bothered 186:20

bothers 177:18

189:22 192:7

bought 213:6

Boulder 7:14

bowing 210:19

box 221:5,6 222:5

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Boy 48:12

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break 22:10 26:16

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98:19 100:18

121:21 122:1

125:20 128:2

196:3

breakfast 195:9

breaks 23:1 47:7

brief 21:11 99:3

briefed 78:6

briefing 80:11

briefly 193:18

bring 67:3 95:3,5,6

104:15 117:8,10

136:2 154:17

197:22 214:19

267:6

bringing 56:11 70:4

broad 65:8,11,21

66:3,5 203:17

207:7,17,21

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broad-based 213:2

broader 66:8 109:9

broke 126:4

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brought 37:17

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Buffalo 3:16 8:19

build 87:8 186:4

229:9 265:16

building 1:6 22:10

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127:22

buildings 193:2,4

builds 9:11

built 266:1

bunch 55:17

burden 95:1 97:3

156:9 157:19

260:12 277:21

burdened 277:17

burdensome 157:16

278:19

Burdick 2:9 8:11,11

11:5 197:6,10,10

business 19:13

121:11,13 156:14

156:15 157:3,6,9

158:5 160:1

167:20 170:19

193:1 222:2 240:7

240:7

businesses 94:4

157:16 159:3

170:14

busy 96:22

buy 245:11

buying 209:19

C

C 4:1

C.F.R 268:3,4

CA 3:14

cafeteria 23:6,9

187:10

calendars 122:22

California 6:22 7:2

7:3 30:3 168:3

call 21:4,6 38:2

63:14 103:15

139:2,14 140:22

156:11 172:15

203:14 219:18

223:15 224:3

238:5,12 240:19

276:3

called 6:11 7:18

18:6 103:12

112:18 222:10

calling 22:11 63:18

162:9

calls 164:19 227:11

capability 80:3

146:12

capacity 56:5

178:22 260:4

265:12

capture 219:18

captured 234:13

car 234:6

card 17:12 50:3

72:18 75:21

197:17 214:8

cards 17:1,4,8 23:11

37:9,12

care 43:7 78:16

121:8 128:8

158:20 189:20

236:13

career 232:16

careful 22:15 84:15

95:8 191:20 258:1

carefully 116:21

129:4

cares 189:19

Carnes 2:18 9:15

95:14 159:17

Carrier 8:15 11:1

93:2

carries 87:3

carrots 234:19

carry 114:13,13

case 52:2 79:9 115:2

164:2,3 168:5

180:7 199:4 219:7

226:15 230:16

231:6,21 239:12

267:1

case-by-case 155:1

cases 23:19 240:9

cast 84:1 86:22

191:18 251:6

Catania 2:10 10:13

10:13 241:22,22

categories 212:13

212:15,17,17

223:10 237:12

244:1,5 247:21

268:17

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190:14 243:3

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caucus 58:18 122:1

caucused 136:2

cause 257:1

causes 116:20

cautionary 155:15

caveat 27:22 28:10

73:14 125:9

caveats 149:22

center 255:16

Central 128:17

certain 6:14 12:21

55:6 60:10,11

62:4,4,22 63:1,1

70:21 83:8 98:20

113:10 174:4

239:14 246:20

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certainly 63:3 144:1

239:8

certification 61:2

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certify 227:9

chair 9:12 137:6,8

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chairing 33:9

chairman 6:16 10:7

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challenge 37:15

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263:17

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54:7

challenging 6:5

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charter 12:6 60:2

chartered 15:1

cheat 167:19

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109:22 113:15

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clean 218:17,20

cleanest 230:4

clear 65:12 66:6

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clearly 17:18

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Cliff 119:11

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closely 204:4 245:6

closer 64:12 193:12

closure 156:1

co-facilitating 25:1

coach 33:20

coast 126:22

code 270:2

codes 194:21

coffee 243:8

cognizant 19:9

Coil 11:3

cold 172:22

collaborating 57:11

colleague 39:18

colleagues 27:19

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collectively 195:5

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Colorado 7:14

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97:17 99:3,7

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126:14 127:2,4,7

139:17 158:7

160:14 172:3,5

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196:13 199:10

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253:16 266:21

275:9

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179:21 189:20

192:5 204:8

221:11

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116:19 137:1

171:5

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19:17 56:20 67:16

91:20 126:22

129:16 190:19

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61:16 73:17 85:2

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99:17 101:8

103:20 109:2

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219:4,14 228:18

230:12 231:1

235:9 236:3

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256:18 266:14

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commenting 113:21

comments 11:11,14

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commissioned

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70:18 75:19 87:15

94:22 95:15

141:22 156:6,9,10

156:22 157:22

158:2,9 159:10,17

159:19 160:3,5,12

167:1,3,4 172:9

180:13 234:17

244:20 245:16

compelled 265:11

competition 160:14

236:6

competitive 236:15

competitors 277:19

complete 20:10

57:15 240:18

246:15 247:10

completed 224:5

completely 45:19

56:19 77:12

125:12 179:20

188:11 190:5

205:14 237:15

complexity 220:22

compliance 210:1

compliant 220:7

270:20,21 271:2

complicated 47:17

compliments

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complying 61:20

component 267:20

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components 216:15

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comprehensive

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compressed 50:19

compression 237:2

compressor 209:9

209:11

compressors 206:2

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compromise 154:20

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compromises

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compromising

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computers 29:19

concede 166:13

conceivably 225:1

234:13

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concepts 44:4

conceptually 209:4

concern 17:13 42:8

46:10,12 74:13

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concerns 16:17 32:9

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136:14 138:21

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concluding 43:10

conclusion 51:15

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conclusions 12:16

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concur 70:18

concurrence 48:18

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concurrent 206:3

condensed 121:1

condenser 273:13

273:15

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condition 92:2

conditioning 6:19

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conditions 91:14

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condone 197:11

conduct 119:4

199:6

conducted 202:17

conference 128:21

140:22

confidence 69:18

80:1 81:3

confident 96:14

confidential 27:17

28:4,21 244:15

250:2

confidentiality

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confine 261:13

confirm 258:10

confirmed 39:19

conflict 18:22 19:14

19:21 21:8,16

25:11,14

conflicts 20:9 22:1

26:3

confused 95:21

240:22

confusing 64:19,20

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confusion 64:2

congratulations

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conjunction 18:9

connected 73:19

244:10 247:17

248:10,15 249:3

251:11,13 254:20

256:15 257:2,9

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consensus 13:7,18

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265:16

lunch 23:1 41:19

51:18,18 58:18,20

97:13,17,18 110:1

116:9 121:21

126:15 127:1

134:5,8 176:22,22

177:4,8 187:9

190:16 191:17

195:7

luncheon 133:4

M

machine 230:19,20

231:9,10 233:8,11

234:20 235:3

239:20

machinery 233:16

magnitude 258:10

main 6:1 33:21

37:14 45:7 77:15

102:19,19

maintain 28:13

140:1 157:12

158:15

maintaining 206:13

major 24:11 94:4

245:19 271:15

majority 102:1

182:21 259:16

makers 198:7

making 29:6,8

31:14 43:7 68:11

68:15 69:8 97:1

175:21 176:15

185:15 222:3

238:13 278:16

MALE 5:15 23:8

28:15 98:6,14

111:3,6 115:13

117:13,16 123:13

126:19 128:8,11

129:18 130:9,13

131:20 132:1,3,12

132:21 133:3

144:15 148:22

149:4 151:2

152:15,16 155:19

159:15 170:1

171:9 181:5,10

183:4,18,19

225:22 226:1,5

231:12 234:5,6

235:15,16 254:2,8

258:12 265:3

275:13

malign 157:5

manage 25:15

199:18 275:3

manageable 92:4

100:12 103:7

management

199:13

mandatory 221:8

manner 28:4 60:20

manufacture 7:20

8:7,12 209:16

224:2

manufacturer 9:16

9:18 10:2 203:6

204:8 215:17,20

215:21 216:1,11

219:9 221:3

224:19 225:6

226:16 238:12,16

238:18 239:10,14

263:2 265:17

268:9 271:4,17

278:10

manufacturer's

229:22

manufacturers 10:8

55:16 79:7 122:9

122:14 145:22

228:17 250:22

251:7 256:9,12

261:6 262:19

269:13,16

manufacturing 3:4

15:13 79:3 215:21

215:22 230:20,20

231:9,10 278:12

map 277:7

Mark 2:8,15 8:9

9:11 50:5 57:2

61:17 70:16,17

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175:5,6 179:2,3,8

197:16,18 232:17

233:12 234:16

255:22 261:21

272:20

market 9:9 232:7

244:3,9,15,19,21

245:16,18 246:7

246:15 247:7,16

247:21 248:2,21

249:8,13,20 258:3

265:15 270:8

274:1

Marketing 10:12

marketplace 6:15

211:7 270:19

272:9

markets 245:17,19

265:6

markup 44:8

married 78:19

Mary 57:3

match 242:14,15

matches 204:11

material 218:11,14

218:19

materials 108:16

210:20

matter 19:5 25:8

64:18 67:20 68:20

87:9,9 105:8

127:6 152:5

178:21 183:21

207:16 271:13

matters 78:6,14

98:21 106:5 214:3

Mauer 2:20 8:4,4

85:22 93:7 123:17

138:20 148:1,13

161:6,15 162:19

178:9 193:18

206:14 226:13,20

227:4,14 239:6

240:9 256:2

maverick 53:8

maximum 5:9

109:10

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McNeil 3:16 8:19

8:19

mean 13:18 54:14

64:3,4,6,21,22

73:19 75:12 78:21

87:13 89:16 92:19

99:15 104:2

105:10 113:3,22

117:5 118:3 126:7

129:2,2 135:8

143:6,6,12,21

144:2,7,8 147:16

153:2,12 155:5,16

157:2,7,14 159:19

160:1 168:20,22

169:8,16 170:9,16

171:20 172:4,21

173:3 174:21

178:8,14 180:6

182:7 184:20

185:7,12,16 190:5

190:14 192:1,7,20

192:21 194:17

200:13 204:21

206:18 208:19

213:20 216:5

219:16 220:18

225:8 227:22

246:22 250:18

252:15 256:17

259:3 261:22

262:3 264:20

meaning 157:5

247:17

means 38:9,20

45:19 78:15,15

118:6,22 148:7

151:17 152:3

160:3 232:5

252:17

meant 39:8 85:8

178:14 216:14

217:6 237:18

264:1

measured 259:10

measuring 262:9

mechanical 225:14

225:16,17 226:1,3

230:2 231:20

233:7,15 235:17

265:2

mechanically 227:6

mechanics 90:3

227:7

mechanisms 118:8

250:2

mediate 25:16

mediation 22:16

24:21 25:16

mediations 24:4

mediator 24:7 25:7

74:5 91:5,6,7

mediators 24:8

meet 41:16 63:9,10

99:19 106:17

124:10 203:11

206:17 226:17

244:6 272:9

meeting 1:1,2 2:1

4:6 13:13 15:19

26:15,16 41:2,11

41:21 51:9 56:3

63:13 73:16,20

82:7 88:6 90:12

90:14,16 91:9

92:5,12 97:1

101:11 102:14

104:15 111:20

112:6,10 119:7,12

119:19,20 120:1,6

120:20 121:3,15

123:9 126:15

127:17 128:1

137:14 138:5

155:10,12 159:9

162:4 163:3,12

165:9 166:9,15

174:7,14 175:11

196:12,19 197:2,4

197:12 198:3,15

198:19 199:1,2

200:2 201:5,10

214:11 242:11,18

252:1 271:3

278:16 279:16

meetings 13:20 14:1

25:21 33:9,14,15

39:17 41:12,14,16

43:3 60:20 72:1

79:20 83:10 86:16

87:4 88:10,11

91:19,22 101:15

101:17 102:7

106:17,18 119:3

122:14,20 123:19

125:10,11 168:1,4

174:5 198:13,13

199:4,11 242:9

meets 223:2

Meg 3:10 7:15 52:5

76:3 111:9 123:6

125:17 154:18,19

174:2,20 190:4

230:13 231:14,18

Megan 178:3

member 7:22 8:18

11:9 14:22 15:14

37:22 38:6 46:8

50:17 72:11 75:11

75:13 76:5 77:11

78:12 79:22 80:15

80:17,20 81:3,20

81:21 82:1,18

83:3,4 84:22 85:9

85:10 86:21,22

87:18,19,22 88:1

88:2,3 89:2 90:9

91:3 92:18 93:11

135:9,14,22

161:18,20 199:19

259:22 260:10

member's 83:6

87:20

members 5:8,10,22

15:2 16:1,2,10

31:9,13,17 34:4

36:19,21 39:22

40:5,17,19,19

42:9,21 43:3,6

49:21 51:2 59:3

83:5 85:16 86:17

86:18 94:17 95:2

103:11 106:1,3,8

106:15 135:7

137:19 145:18

146:6 147:9

152:10 162:3,20

172:1 174:5

183:14 196:12

222:3 245:14

247:18,19 253:1

276:5,15

members' 93:18

membership 128:16

260:14

Memorial 127:14

127:15,16

mention 27:10

28:17 41:1 135:6

210:14

mentioned 4:19

14:21 15:13 22:7

23:10 29:2 37:21

47:21 62:17 93:3

127:9 135:5 138:4

167:17 182:15

214:12,13 238:22

278:15

merited 113:6

mess 154:14

message 179:14

met 261:5

method 224:17

metric 14:9 60:22

204:14,17 217:4

219:19 223:16

224:8,11 228:11

229:4,17 238:10

metrics 274:4

MIA 10:17

mic 11:11,14,17,17

15:7,8 16:3 28:18

30:8 32:19 33:5

38:1 39:18,19

42:18 47:10 60:5

73:17 85:2 98:7

99:17 101:8

103:20 111:8

116:10 123:10

125:6 130:4

131:21 132:13

144:16,17 159:21

166:20,22 169:10

170:2,17 174:1

176:19 177:2

180:18 181:2,13

182:10 183:17

190:3 195:11

204:22 213:18

228:18 231:1

234:7 235:9 237:6

244:13,16 245:8

247:1,3 249:16

254:10 258:16

261:14 264:8,22

268:22 275:10

279:1

Michael 3:13

Michigan 10:15

microphone 5:16

196:13

mics 39:22

mid 267:5

middle 158:10

midst 155:16

Mike 7:19 39:14

84:6,8 87:2 101:7

101:9 104:5,6

198:10,11 219:1,3

244:8

Mike's 83:15

military 9:12

Miller 15:3 135:10

135:11

mimicking 238:7,8

mind 27:12 36:6

38:13 82:11,11

101:4 151:5 184:8

186:13 200:8,16

216:12

mine 274:11 279:14
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minority 145:18

minute 47:13 54:21

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minutes 14:16

16:18 47:9 197:4

Miscellaneous

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miscue 35:4

miserable 70:10

missed 137:14

150:14 175:10

misses 128:7

missing 42:9,16

50:15

mistaken 258:5

misunderstanding

85:7

mitigated 21:9

model 144:22 145:9

278:10

models 256:10,14

257:9 268:16

moderator 33:21

modified 88:19

modify 267:22

moment 6:17 249:4

254:15 258:15

Monday 127:11

158:12

Mondays 127:12

money 245:11

month 68:9,10

months 4:12 13:21

67:2,10,14 70:12

70:12,19 75:1

107:6 124:19,21

160:14,14 175:18

morning 6:18 7:19

17:22 25:13

126:16 140:19,20

141:8 158:12

186:2 194:9

241:12 243:7

270:6 272:4

275:16 279:15

Morrison 3:9 10:1

11:2,2

motor 2:7 10:6

198:7 220:17

223:4,5,8,11

224:14 225:18

227:2,2,8 229:10

229:12 239:9

240:4,11,15 255:7

260:3,4,18 262:20

264:1,2 265:8,11

265:14,17,21

266:1,4,17,19

267:2,3,6 269:5,8

269:10,12 273:5

motorized 9:8

motors 9:7 10:12

231:21 238:10

261:7,8 264:17

266:7,15,15,16

272:22

mount 223:5

mouth 177:12 188:7

move 31:19 33:14

34:8 39:13 40:14

43:16 44:4 46:22

51:12 52:16 53:4

59:16 103:8 116:7

129:1 131:11

145:4 149:2

160:17 168:17

172:19,22 175:21

176:15 189:1

194:11 196:9

208:9 210:10

moved 84:3 221:4

Movement 3:7

moving 14:4 26:6

31:17 37:12 38:12

41:10 71:14 98:13

120:14 191:7

multiple 100:18

216:19 236:12

274:10

multiply 254:19

mutual 94:2

mutually 263:3

N

N 4:1 134:1,1,1

name 4:3,16 7:4

17:17,22 23:12

25:13 55:1 167:3

173:9

name's 6:10 7:10

24:5

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nameplate 264:2

265:12,14 266:4

267:6

nameplates 266:22

names 140:6

narrower 243:13

narrowing 65:22

National 3:18 9:5

10:7 127:22 203:6

natural 3:10 7:15

236:6,17

nature 104:13

199:2

Navigant 3:15 8:21

nearly 88:14 171:4

neatly 265:13

necessarily 24:16

89:8,15 102:10

106:19 114:4

141:12 159:19

169:6 185:15

190:15 214:21

215:11 217:2

237:18 238:4

252:1 268:13

272:3

necessary 21:6 62:8

70:19 72:22

108:17 161:4

need 4:14 14:2,3

17:4 22:2,10

32:18 38:1 42:11

44:1 46:20 49:2

56:14 61:14 62:16

68:8,9,11,12 70:9

70:13 71:1 72:1

74:5 78:8,10

84:21 89:22 94:19

97:20 100:21

106:9 107:4

113:15 115:11

116:18 124:1,2

125:10 131:4

136:19 143:7

147:17 148:11

151:18 158:12

161:5 168:22

180:14 182:9,22

183:9 187:2

188:12 193:12

206:1,4 209:5,22

217:21 230:1

233:8 237:8 250:7

266:3 268:13,20

269:15

needed 12:9 68:4

75:8 100:11 108:5

113:4 162:6

177:14 179:1

196:1 237:16

needing 63:8 211:8

needs 21:8 43:6

46:5 62:1 68:13

68:14,22 75:18,19

100:7 131:7

147:13 153:19

157:7 209:17

negative 39:7 48:16

48:17,21,22 52:20

110:3,5,14 111:2

111:12 166:1,2

177:5,5 181:12

negatively 110:4,6

110:14,15 111:13

113:3 117:19

neglected 167:19

negotiate 4:7 12:6

38:8 54:16 63:1

66:9 67:19 107:10

108:1 136:9

183:12 213:21

negotiated 12:16

26:6 29:12 30:22

30:22 31:6,9 33:8

36:15 38:10,20

44:16 154:7 169:4

169:12,16 182:15

184:15,18 251:21

negotiating 12:12

12:21 13:6 42:3

63:11 79:16

118:10,13 122:10

130:18 136:18

185:13

negotiation 13:14

14:19 55:20

107:16 119:5

189:18

negotiations 13:6

20:4 31:8 43:10

55:20 71:15 89:10

243:10 252:8

258:5

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neither 93:14

NEMA 10:10 269:4

NEMA's 265:18

net 251:6

neutral 23:22

neutrals 35:5

never 77:14 109:20

111:20,21 115:18

135:16 151:5

158:5 172:5 207:5

207:5

new 2:8 8:9 18:11

24:10 39:4 50:6

70:17 85:20 89:17

125:14 141:21

184:9 202:18

224:21 234:16

Newcomb 3:17 7:18

nice 158:19

Nicholas 2:18 96:6

Nick 9:15 95:14

159:13,17 167:14

Nick's 172:8

Nidec 2:7 3:12 10:6

10:11 269:4

night 34:22 60:7

126:1 129:16

140:18 158:11

243:5

nine 24:9,14 127:6

128:5 275:15

no's 38:11

NODA 243:21

244:3 249:22

nominal 224:14

nominally 261:19

nominate 93:11

non-committee

15:20 40:19

non-compliant

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non-driven 221:9

222:10 238:5,6

non-fans 190:16

non-issue 175:3

non-voting 40:5

noon 125:22 126:13

126:14 127:6

128:2,6

Nope 69:15

NOPR 109:6,9

114:8

normal 29:13,15

111:7

normally 5:11

14:16 16:21 27:19

36:18 40:16 45:10

47:17 49:17,20

87:14

North 10:17 264:17

notable 276:6

note 38:5 57:18

67:9 71:5,6 78:4

155:16 253:8

noted 212:20

Notes 119:11

notice 111:19

167:22 202:8,11

203:4 249:11

noticed 42:8

notices 43:8

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Notwithstanding

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novel 193:16

NRDC 3:10 76:4

123:7

nuances 65:19

nuclear 236:21,22

number 29:3 38:22

49:20 51:2 57:7

73:5 83:8,17 89:4

99:11 101:1,3

103:13 105:2

117:4 186:17

187:15 188:22

197:3 230:18

242:2 244:10

245:21,22 249:5

254:20,21 257:8

258:10

numbers 48:7 55:12

244:9 246:20

248:12 251:4

O

O 4:1 134:1,1,1

o'clock 126:1,4

275:15

O'Hare 73:6

O'NEIL 170:12

object 175:13

objecting 159:6

objection 151:9

184:11

objections 150:18

objective 78:1

obligate 114:11

obligating 35:5

obligation 35:13

79:19 102:21,22

114:12 213:8

obligations 96:22

109:11 138:8

obscured 218:8

observation 30:4

54:11 185:1

256:10

observed 199:3

obvious 263:1

obviously 12:9

37:18 43:22 60:3

60:14,16 113:11

122:7 154:14

222:18 235:12

243:10

occasion 155:5

occasionally 27:16

274:13,14

occasions 73:3

occur 92:17 165:6,8

occurs 254:14

OEM 8:8 213:7,8

218:2 231:17

238:1 268:15

271:11 278:11,16

offense 156:21

189:8 191:16

offer 36:8 48:14

174:20

offered 174:17

offers 267:9

office 4:20,21 9:2

10:21 14:14 18:2

22:5 23:13,15

25:5,10,11,14

32:5 33:17 73:14

95:4,7 126:6,8

officer 20:21

offices 25:18 43:9

official 18:3 153:11

153:17,22

officially 58:12

offshore 269:17

oftentimes 208:14

215:18 217:11,11

220:3,15 277:15

OGC 38:6

oh 5:17 47:5 59:7,10

69:20 76:14 81:12

98:1 131:10

161:13 181:11

185:16 200:11

214:5 221:16

227:20 232:4

275:11

OHA 118:20

okay 5:17,18,20

11:19 21:18,19

23:10 26:5,8

28:19 29:2 32:16

33:1 35:18 40:13

41:8,9 42:20

44:15 47:11 49:13

55:13 56:7 59:7

59:13,18 61:15

64:13 66:11,14,18

66:19 69:8,16

71:9,11 75:17

76:15 77:4,6

85:18 87:16 88:18

91:8,10 94:14

95:4,7 98:1,13

103:4,9 105:20

106:7 108:17

109:11 110:11

114:6 118:2 121:7

121:9 122:5,6

124:11 125:18

128:4,13 130:13

132:14,18,20

134:3 135:5

140:13 145:16

146:16,19 148:16

149:17,17,18

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153:15 156:2

167:11 168:9

175:19 176:6,12

180:19 181:18,21

182:2,3,6,12

184:7,12 190:1

194:7,11 195:12

195:17 196:8

197:16 198:4

199:22 200:8

201:7,17 205:9

211:13 214:4

215:15 217:10

225:12 226:20

230:11 233:2

237:4 240:8

242:12,16 243:19

244:21 245:3,13

245:20 246:4,6

247:12 248:2

249:1 255:22

257:3 259:2,6,17

264:9,12 272:19

275:15,20 278:3

on/off 228:16,22

229:3,14

once 4:22 6:6 20:3

22:15 27:20 43:11

64:3 76:7 110:16

217:3,7 220:8

269:19

one's 59:8,9 173:6

one-fourth 145:21

ones 76:11 124:3

236:12,16

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209:12 252:8

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open 15:6,9 16:3

37:22 39:18,19

119:7 137:2 155:2

177:22 192:10

201:22 268:9

open-ended 76:22

99:13

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operate 13:17

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operating 157:17

256:19,20

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251:14 262:2,5,11

opinion 49:8 51:13

52:18 63:4,18

85:16 89:6 112:19

113:4 138:15

175:1 208:3

213:11 225:21

252:9,10 253:15

opinions 53:22 76:9

134:8 160:3

208:10 237:18

opportunities 23:7

opportunity 15:10

16:20 76:22 107:8

112:7 139:1 152:3

161:3 175:12

178:13 267:9

opposed 6:1 20:15

48:7 101:21

171:11 200:2

opposite 55:6

option 72:3 109:14

221:11 243:18

optional 221:7

options 31:12 34:1,2

39:10 86:8,14

orange 38:5 244:2

order 17:8 38:3,17

48:9 49:9 61:5

84:10 131:13,17

135:19 162:5,8

182:19 188:2

189:5 202:20

250:3 258:9 263:3

organization 17:18

82:19,21 104:9

114:12,14,15

115:8 142:6 173:6

organization's

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organizations 19:19

22:3

oriented 18:20

20:20

original 134:13

146:22 147:3

151:11 162:4

208:7

originally 11:21

92:15 146:7

originated 12:5

other's 97:4

ought 153:4

outcome 164:5

outcomes 189:16

outline 119:11

120:4,16

outlines 115:1

outlining 107:19

output 209:10

outset 36:2 74:4

88:13 170:8 207:8

244:7

outside 23:7 26:16

33:13 75:2 103:12

105:8 138:16

168:8 173:6

233:21 270:22

overall 117:19

213:13 223:14

overcome 54:7

overlapping 209:13

overnight 125:16

263:15

override 137:18

oversight 21:14

overview 13:15

41:22 102:16

212:11

overviews 14:6

P

P 3:9 4:1

p.m 279:16

Pacific 7:1

packaged 217:4

273:1

packages 222:3

packaging 224:18

page 33:18 177:15

178:6

pages 92:20

paired 224:9

Pam 25:12,14

panicked 22:17

paragraph 48:11

49:1 148:4 149:19

150:18

paragraphs 116:15

Pardon 176:6

parent 18:4,6,8,13

18:15,19 19:10

20:3,5,15,21
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117:21 139:12

200:22

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312 

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