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 DEPARTMENT OF ENERGY

 COMMERCIAL AND INDUSTRIAL PUMPS

 NEGOTIATED RULEMAKING WORKING GROUP

 CALL NO. FEB 0214-2 EE-2J

 Thursday, March 27, 2014

 8:00 a.m.

 Department of Energy

 1000 Independence Avenue, SW

 Forrestal Building

 Suite GF035

 Washington, D.C. 20585

 Reported by: San Hines

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1 P A R T I C I P A N T S

 (In Alphabetical Order)

2

Lucas Adin, Department of Energy

3 Robert Barbour, TACO, Inc.

Rob Boteler, Nidec Motor Corporation

4 Doug Brookman, Facilitator, Public Solutions

Charles Cappellino, ITT Goulds Pumps

5 Greg Case, Pump Design, Development & Diagnostics,

LLC

6 Tom Eckman, Northwest Power and Conservation Council

Gary Fernstrom, California Investor-Owned Utilities

7 Mark Handzel, Xylem

Albert Huber, Patterson Pumps

8 Betsy Kohl, Department of Energy

Paul Lin, Regal-Beloit Corporation

9 Joanna Mauer, Appliance Standards Awareness Project

 (ASAP)

10 Brent McManis, Baldor Electric Company

Laura Petrillo-Groh, Air-Conditioning, Heating, &

11 Refrigeration Institute (AHRI)

Douglas Potts, American Water

12 C.J. (Chuck) Powers, Flowserve

Steven Rosenstock, Edison Electric Institute (EEI)

13 Arnold Sdano, Pentair

James Sivigny, Flowserve

14 Louis Starr, Northwest Energy Efficiency Alliance

 (NEEA)

15 Greg Towsley, Grundfos Pumps Corporation

Meg Waltner, Natural Resources Defense Council

16 (NRDC)

Daniel Weintraub, Navigant

17 Sarah Widder, Pacific Northwest National Laboratory

Alison Williams, Lawrence Berkeley National

18 Laboratory

19

20

21

22
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1 P R O C E E D I N G S

2 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Let's start, shall

3 we? Good morning, everyone. I'm glad to see you

4 here bright and early. Today is the second day of

5 the fourth meeting of the Commercial and

6 Industrial Pumps Negotiated Rulemaking Working

7 Group. My name is Doug Brookman from Public

8 Solutions in Baltimore.

9 Let's start by doing introductions

10 around the room. I'll start to my immediate left.

11 And you can get used to turning these microphones

12 on and off.

13 MR. LIN: Paul Lin with Regal-Beloit.

14 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Steve Rosenstock,

15 Edison Electric Institute.

16 MR. HUBER: Al Huber, Patterson Pump.

17 MR. CAPPELLINO: Charlie Cappellino, ITT

18 Corporation.

19 MR. HANDZEL: Mark Handzel from Xylem.

20 MR. CASE: Greg Case, Hydraulic

21 Institute.

22 MR. BARBOUR: Bob Barbour from TACO.
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1 MR. POWERS: Chuck Powers, Flowserve.

2 MR. TOWSLEY: Greg Towsley, Grundfos.

3 MS. WALTNER: Meg Waltner, Natural

4 Resources Defense Council.

5 MR. FERNSTROM: Gary Fernstrom,

6 California Investor-Owned Utilities.

7 MR. STARR: Louis Starr, NEEA.

8 MS. MAUER: Joanna Mauer, Appliance

9 Standards Awareness Project.

10 MR. POTTS: Doug Potts, American Water.

11 MS. KOHL: Betsy Kohl, DOE, General

12 Counsel.

13 MR. ADIN: Lucas Adin, DOE.

14 MS. WIDDER: Sarah Widder, Pacific

15 Northwest National Labs.

16 MR. WEINTRAUB: Dan Weintraub, Navigant.

17 MS. WILLIAMS: Alison Williams, Lawrence

18 Berkeley National Labs.

19 MR. BOTELER: Rob Boteler, Nidec.

20 MR. SDANO: Arnie Sdano, Pentair.

21 MR. McMANIS: Brent McManis, Baldor

22 Electric.
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1 MS. PETRILLO-GROH: Laura Petrillo-Groh,

2 AHRI.

3 MR. SIVIGNY: James Sivigny, Flowserve.

4 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Thanks to all of

5 you. Thanks for getting here on time. We can get

6 a nice early start on this day.

7 Yesterday we made tremendous progress.

8 I'm really pleased about that. I know many of you

9 are as well. I think all of you are in fact.

10 Tom Eckman, introduce yourself, please.

11 MR. ECKMAN: Tom Eckman, Northwest Power

12 and Conservation Council.

13 MR. BROOKMAN: Thank you. And looking

14 forward to continuing the progress today dealing

15 with metrics, maybe a little bit of information on

16 test procedure stuff, and any other loose ends

17 that we come up with as the day goes on.

18 So I think without any further ado,

19 we'll just turn to Sarah Widder. And Sarah and I

20 had a brief conversation this morning. I think we

21 should try and let her present this packet before

22 we start trying to dive deep. I think the packet
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1 has a certain logic and coherence, and we ought to

2 just see if it pays off that way.

3 So Sarah Widder.

4 MS. WIDDER: Thanks, Doug.

5 And, yeah, so I'm going to try and -- it

6 is a lot of material, but I think, as Doug

7 mentioned, if we go through it, I won't get into

8 too many of the details, but I will try to present

9 everything that's in the slide packet once

10 through, and then we'll go back and take notes if

11 you have questions, if there is -- we don't have

12 to -- you know, if there are really large

13 concerns, please feel free to bring them up, but

14 otherwise, I think we'll make a lot of progress if

15 we can have all the material out on the table

16 before we start discussing.

17 So these are the same slides we went

18 through yesterday, so the first few are going to

19 go pretty quickly. This is again an overview of

20 what we're going to discuss in the slides. We're

21 going to do examples of a calculation-based test

22 procedure as well as a testing-based option for
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1 pumps and motors, pumps and motors with controls,

2 and then talk in more detail about the specific

3 load points, weighting options, and denominators.

4 This is just a review of what we're

5 trying to accomplish with this metric: have a

6 metric that is equivalently applicable to a bare

7 pump, a bare pump sold with a driver or motor, or

8 a bare pump sold with a driver and controls. And

9 we established yesterday that the bare pump option

10 would also be applicable to pumps sold with other

11 than electric drives.

12 The covered product is the pump, and the

13 metric is intended to be applicable to every piece

14 of equipment that makes up the pump and

15 representative of the energy use of each of those

16 components. So to accomplish that, we developed

17 this PER example metric. We have received comments

18 that we might consider different nomenclature than

19 "Pump Energy Rating." We'll consider that, and if

20 any of the working group has suggestions, we can

21 talk about that.

22 But in general, it's an average or a
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1 weighting of some sort of three load points

2 representative of different locations on the pump

3 curve, and in this case, we have talked about 100

4 percent of BEP flow, 110 percent of BEP flow, 75

5 percent of BEP flow, and 50 percent of BEP flow,

6 representative of the light green dots on that

7 curve. And then for pump driver and controls, we

8 would have the same load points in terms of BEP

9 flow, but we would follow a system curve that

10 allows speed reduction for the controls that are

11 able to accomplish that.

12 The issues that we're going to try and

13 get through today are the existence of a

14 denominator, so that's red on the bottom. We

15 talked about hydraulic power being an option.

16 There are a lot of other options. We'll get to

17 that at the end. The load control factor out to

18 the left, whether or not and what should be

19 applied to pumps or pumps and motors that aren't

20 sold with controls. If just 100 percent

21 efficiency is an appropriate assumption, or we

22 want to account in some way for theoretical
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1 control losses, how we account for motor losses at

2 part-loading, how we account for controls in

3 general, whether that's a testing-based approach

4 or a calculation-based approach, the load points

5 and the weighting, and we'll go through each of

6 those in detail.

7 We talked about this.

8 So I am just going to get into the

9 sample calculations and then go through the

10 testing methods and compare them.

11 For these example calculations, we used

12 a reference pump. So this is just an example for

13 one pump. It would vary based on the pump curve

14 and what pump you were testing. In this example,

15 the pump is an OH1, has a rated flow of 900

16 gallons per minute and a rated head of 160 feet.

17 And then the motor for the pump and motor case is

18 a 60-horse, 95 percent motor, and then the

19 controls, we'll look at two controls options.

20 We talked about how the test procedure

21 for establishing BEP and just in general pump

22 characteristics being consistent with 40.6,
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1 essentially running the load curve capturing 7

2 points on the load curve for a pump, whether they

3 be specific load points in 40.6 -- it was I think

4 40, 60, 75, 80, 90, 100 -- or 90, 100, 110, 120,

5 something like that -- and then through the

6 equation of best fit, finding the BEP flow.

7 Some things we want to capture in the

8 test procedure would be the repeatability of that

9 and ensuring that then when you found BEP flow,

10 you would actually capture your 100 percent point

11 near to what you thought would be BEP flow.

12 Is this a big deal? Is it okay if we go

13 all the way through?

14 MR. BROOKMAN: Write it down.

15 MR. ROSENSTOCK: All right.

16 MS. WIDDER: Okay. All right. Thanks.

17 I'll try to stay high level. That will be my

18 goal, we'll have compromise so then we can get

19 into the questions later.

20 So for the bare pump option, we talked

21 about this. The pump performance data would come

22 from 40.6 at the specific load points. I am going
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1 to use 50, 75, 100, and 110 just moving forward in

2 this example. They could be something else if we

3 decide on that. And then multiplying by

4 standardized motor performance and potentially

5 standardized control performance. This would be

6 purely an algorithm since the two components on

7 the left don't exist for this bare pump case.

8 So we took the pump data at those four

9 load points and plugged them into the equation.

10 That's seen here.

11 We talked about the method to account

12 for motor losses. So we can look up a default

13 full-load motor efficiency in the tables at CFR

14 431.25, which is the section for motors. In this

15 case, we have a specific way of determining the

16 size that's to be paired with this pump, looking

17 at the horsepower, the shaft horsepower, at 120

18 percent of BEP flow. We found that to be 53.65,

19 round up to 60. We have a rated efficiency of

20 93.6 percent, and that's actually not applied

21 directly to your equation; instead, we take that

22 rated flow, which also from the test procedure --
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1 or, sorry, rated efficiency, which also from the

2 test procedure has a rated full-load loss

3 associated with it that's essentially the

4 component of -- the losses are what make the

5 efficiency go down, so greater full-load losses

6 will result in less efficiency. So I think that's

7 all clear. If that's not clear, we can get back

8 to it.

9 And we'll calculate the loading of the

10 motor as opposed to the loading of the pump at

11 each of the points that we've specified

12 previously. So in most cases, this will mean that

13 the motor loading is slightly less than the pump

14 loading because the pump is a little bit oversized

15 -- well, not oversized, but a little bit larger

16 horsepower than the pump.

17 And then using this algorithm that we

18 developed based on motor master data for how

19 losses change with loading of the motor, we can

20 calculate the horsepower losses at each load point

21 for the pump.

22 And this table just represents that
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1 data. So there are four flow points on the left2 hand side: 110, 100,

3 75, and 50, are bare pump shaft power.

4 Then we calculated the load fraction on the motor

5 for each of those cases: the part-load loss

6 factor, which is plugging in that XI term into the

7 YI quadratic equation that was on the previous

8 slide, and then the fractional-load loss is a

9 horsepower. We multiplied the YI times the full10 load losses.

11 And one thing I didn't put on this slide

12 that would have been interesting, but I'll just

13 say it in words and we can present the data later,

14 is that that fractional-load loss does result in a

15 decreasing efficiency of the motor, so that's

16 captured. It's a minor impact. It maybe

17 decreases I think it's like not quite a percent in

18 that range, but those fractional-load losses are

19 representative of a decrease in efficiency of the

20 motor, and then combining the fractional load loss

21 and the shaft input power, we come up with a

22 fractional input power to the pump in this case
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1 without controls. So that would be the line input

2 power to the motor that's driving the pump system.

3 In this case, if we equally weight that

4 and we assume a standardized load control factor

5 of 1, because there are no controls, which also

6 would be an assumption of 100 percent efficiency

7 of the controls, we have a PER of 45.76 with no

8 denominator. This is the quadratic -- or the data

9 where the quadratic was developed. The motor

10 masters data, you can see that we chose the most

11 conservative case, so the very top of the data is

12 the worst case motor; it has the highest basically

13 drop-off in efficiency.

14 And one other point is we could develop

15 or will develop different load curves for ODP

16 versus enclosed motors and for 2- and 4-pole

17 motors. So there will be theoretically four -- or

18 could be theoretically four different equations

19 that you could apply based on the type of motor

20 you had, and if there are other loss curves that

21 we should create because of different types of

22 motors that might be applied, we can certainly do
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1 that if we had data.

2 For bare pump and motor case, it looks

3 very, very similar. This is the same table that

4 we saw before, but now we're assuming -- or we're

5 not assuming anymore, we are calculating the PER

6 or the fractional-load loss that's associated with

7 a 95 percent efficient motor, which is what we're

8 pairing with the pump in this example. So instead

9 of the default motor efficiency, it's a 95 percent

10 motor, it has full-load losses of 3.16 horsepower

11 -- oh, yeah.

12 MR. CAPPELLINO: Can you slow down a

13 little bit?

14 MS. WIDDER: Yeah. Okay.

15 MR. CAPPELLINO: You're starting to get

16 into new stuff.

17 MS. WIDDER: Yeah.

18 MR. CAPPELLINO: Thank you.

19 MR. BROOKMAN: That's a good point.

20 Thank you.

21 MS. WIDDER: Good point. Thank you.

22 So I'll start at the top again. So the
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1 PER is exactly the same as it was for the bare

2 pump case. The P values will be exactly the same

3 as it was for the bare pump case. The only thing

4 that's changing for a pump and motor is the motor

5 efficiency, that's the only thing that's

6 different, and in specific, the full-load losses.

7 So we don't actually input motor efficiency into

8 the equation. The way it's calculated is the

9 full-load losses times the fractional-load loss

10 factor. So in this table -- you can still hear

11 me; right? I talk sort of loud.

12 MR. BROOKMAN: Yeah. You're good,

13 you're good. Just speak up. Yeah.

14 MS. WIDDER: Okay. So in this case, the

15 only thing that's different, these data are

16 exactly the same as it was for the bare pump case,

17 but now this fractional-load loss term has

18 decreased slightly and we resulted in a slightly

19 decreased input power to the motor at each of the

20 load points, and so we've gotten a slightly

21 decreased PER value as compared to the bare pump

22 case, but the only thing that changed was the
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1 motor, and in specific, this full-load loss --

2 calculated full-load losses, or rated full-load

3 losses, that comes from the motor test procedure.

4 Is this a really burning question?

5 MR. ROSENSTOCK: If you can just make it

6 larger so I can see.

7 MS. WIDDER: Oh, yeah, sure. Thank you.

8 MR. POWERS: And on the PowerPoints they

9 allow a pen, if you want to.

10 MS. WIDDER: I suppose I can figure out

11 how to do that. Pen. Okay. There we go. Got

12 it.

13 MR. POWERS: If you hold it down --

14 MS. WIDDER: Okay.

15 UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: That's

16 better.

17 MS. WIDDER: Good. Excellent.

18 UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: Sorry.

19 MS. WIDDER: Yeah. No, no, no. It's

20 good. I don't know where my pen went, but

21 hopefully we won't have to deal with that anymore.

22 Oh. That was a bad plan.
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1 MR. ADIN: Hey, Sarah?

2 MS. WIDDER: Yeah.

3 MR. ADIN: I think that tool up in the

4 right is for the webinar.

5 MS. WIDDER: Oh.

6 MR. ADIN: So I don't know if that's

7 going to work on PowerPoint necessarily.

8 MS. WIDDER: Right.

9 MR. ADIN: There might be a separate --

10 MS. KOHL: I think you right click.

11 MR. ADIN: Yeah. Right click on the

12 slide and it might --

13 MS. WIDDER: Okay. Excellent. Pointer

14 options. Let's do that. Pen. There we go.

15 Okay. Got it. Perfect.

16 Okay. So now on to the bare pump motor

17 and controls case. There are several options that

18 we could consider for rating a bare pump that's

19 sold combined with motor and controls. The top

20 case here is the calculation approach that would

21 be the least burdensome and sort of the default

22 case, and that's what we'll talk through today or
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1 right now, and then we'll talk through the testing

2 cases a little bit later on.

3 This is the same equation that we saw

4 for the bare pump and motor, and the same data

5 would be applied except for in this case we are

6 not using four rated pump input horsepower or pump

7 shaft input power, but before, we had measured

8 data at each of these PowerPoints. And in this

9 case, we're just going to take the BEP shaft

10 horsepower. And then because we're accounting for

11 speed reduction and the power reduction that's

12 associated with moving down the system curve,

13 we're going to assume a system curve and calculate

14 these lower -- the power at these -- the shaft

15 power at these lower values.

16 And that's going to result in -- let me

17 do one more. So that's going to result in -- for

18 this example, we're going to walk through how we

19 might calculate this load control factor. And

20 there's -- and -- what do I want to say? We're

21 going to talk through how we might calculate the

22 load control factor that would be applied equally
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1 to all pumps that were sold with a specific type

2 of control.

3 So in this case, the first case, we're

4 going to talk about a VFD. The load control

5 factor in general will be the PER of the

6 controlled pump case moving down that system

7 curve, which will be lower, as the numerator,

8 divided by the uncontrolled PER, which for this

9 pump would be the 45.08 horsepower number that we

10 got with the bare pump plus the 95 percent

11 efficient motor, assuming that it's sold with the

12 same motor and controls, so just adding on

13 controls in this case.

14 Is there anything else we need to -- we

15 developed load control factors for each specific

16 type of control. Here I've developed examples for

17 variable speed drive and for a 2-speed motor or a

18 multi-speed motor, but we could make a list of

19 other control options that should be considered

20 and how those system curves might look different,

21 but I would definitely welcome input from the

22 committee on that point.
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1 And then we assumed a -- this is just a

2 point for when you see this slide -- we have made

3 some assumptions about the efficiency of the

4 control as 96 percent efficient, and then also we

5 have assumed this conservative system curve, and

6 this is to accomplish the same thing as the motor

7 losses equation accomplishes for us. This makes

8 sure that this load control factor always gives us

9 a worst case for a pump sold with motors and

10 controls, and if you were to test it and actually

11 measure the power input to the system at those

12 reduced loadings, you would get a better rating

13 than you would using the calculation approach.

14 So this is our load curve. One point is

15 that now we're considering 110 percent, we're not

16 allowing for overspeeding, so you're just

17 following the pump curve at that point. That was

18 the assumption we made here.

19 And then this is the equation of the

20 relationship between flow and speed, head and

21 speed, and power and speed are what we're relying

22 on. Typically, that's a square relationship
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1 between head and speed. N is speed in this case,

2 H is head, Q is flow, P is power. And usually a

3 cubic relationship between power, and so that's

4 where the conservative nature of this system curve

5 comes in. We used 1.8 and 2.8 instead. There's a

6 small basis, a weak basis I'll call it, for that.

7 ASHRAE in the Fundamentals Handbook talks about

8 system curves in the field being typically more in

9 the 1.8 to 1.9 range for the relationship between

10 head and flow, and so that's the assumption we

11 have used here. The committee -- and we can

12 actually assume any number we want there. And I

13 actually did some calculations looking at, what if

14 we reduce it to 2.5, 2.25? And it doesn't have as

15 large of an impact as I thought it would. But we

16 can definitely consider what that number might be.

17 It's 2.8 in this example case.

18 So, again, we're going to take only two

19 inputs from our tested pump data, the power at

20 BEP, the shaft horsepower at BEP, which in this

21 case was 47.7 horsepower, and the flow at BEP,

22 which in this case was 490 GPM.
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1 Using the pump affinity laws, we then

2 plug those two values in and calculate the power

3 at the reduced load points. This is an example

4 calculation for 75 percent of BEP flow, and we had

5 a reduced shaft input power of 21.3-horsepower.

6 And you can imagine how you might do that

7 equivalently for the 50 percent point, and then

8 again the 110 percent point is on the curve. So

9 we don't have to do any adjustment for that.

10 Assuming the motor is a 95 percent

11 efficient motor, the same we had before in the

12 uncontrolled case, and the drive is 96 percent

13 efficient, the controlled PER is then -- you know,

14 if we -- is 1 times these shaft -- the weighted --

15 the equally weighted shaft input power at the load

16 points that we calculated these -- basically these

17 values in the right-hand column, plugged in, and

18 accounting for motor losses, so that's why they're

19 a little bit different than the values in the

20 table, so we took these values, we -- or, sorry.

21 Yeah. We took these values in the right-hand

22 column, we applied motor efficiency and motor
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1 losses to them just like it was a motor sold -- or

2 a pump sold with a motor.

3 We got these values that we plugged in

4 the top as input power to the motor, and then we

5 divided that by the drive, or assumed drive,

6 efficiency. And so that would give us essentially

7 a PER that is accounting for the efficiency of the

8 motor, the efficiency of the drive, and the

9 reduced power input to the system as we move down

10 the system curve, and that's what we wanted to

11 accomplish here.

12 So we got a controlled PER of 35.15 in

13 this case, and if we take the ratio of -- oh,

14 that's a mistake, sorry. All right. I did this

15 calculation many, many times, and I didn't update

16 that last little equation, but if we took 35.15 or

17 33.45, which was the case before, divided by the

18 uncontrolled PER, we get a load control factor of

19 .78, and then that load control factor would be

20 applied to any pump sold with controls.

21 So in the future, when manufacturers are

22 selling a bare pump with motor and controls, you
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1 would certify your pump as you tested their pump,

2 apply the full-load losses and the motor loss

3 equation, calculate the PER of the bare pump and

4 motor that it's packaged with, and then depending

5 on the type of controls, look up the load control

6 factor that would be static for any type of

7 control that you might apply, and if it's a VFD in

8 this case, it's .78, and that would essentially

9 just reduce your PER by .78, and you would get in

10 this case 33.15.

11 For the 2-speed motor, it's a little bit

12 different, very similar approach, a little bit

13 different calculations because of how the speed

14 reduction is accomplished. It doesn't completely

15 follow the system curve. In this calculation, we

16 had to make assumptions about what percentage

17 loading remained on the high speed of the motor

18 and what percentage loading the speeding was

19 reduced to the lower speed of the motor and what

20 the ratio is.

21 In this case, we have assumed a 2-to-1,

22 so the low speed is half of high speed, and due to
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1 that, we have assumed that the 75 percent, 100

2 percent, and 110 percent loading cases remain on

3 the high speed of the motor and that only the 50

4 percent loading point drops down to the lower

5 speed, as you can see in the figure in the right6 hand side.

7 So if we make all those assumptions --

8 and part of the reason we made that assumption is

9 if you look at the loading on the motor, we state

10 -- even the 75 percent point is 67 percent of

11 motor load, and so that -- based on the loading of

12 the motor, we felt comfortable assuming that it

13 stayed at high speed for the load points that we

14 are looking at. For the 50 percent case, we are

15 54 percent loaded if we stayed at high speed, and

16 then if we reduce to low speed, the power goes

17 down significantly. The calculation is shown

18 here, it's 7.94-horsepower.

19 And assuming that again the motor is a

20 95 percent efficient motor and applying motor

21 losses, then we have here is this equally weighted

22 equation. And in this case, I'll just point out
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1 that these values are all just like they were for

2 the bare pump plus motor case. There have been no

3 changes. These are just as if we had no control

4 and then only this 50 percent loading case we

5 decreased the input, the assumed shaft input power

6 to the pump, and then so we have a lower power

7 input to the motor -- or the pump system.

8 We have a controlled PER of 38.43.

9 That's slightly higher than the case with the VFD

10 control, which is appropriate, and a load control

11 factor that's more conservative, it does not

12 account for as much power reduction. At .85, you

13 don't get as much credit for having the 2-speed

14 motor compared to a VFD, and that's how you might

15 differentiate controls. So we could develop

16 similar assumptions for other types of controls.

17 There are some issues that we will have

18 to work out, some details, related to 2-speed

19 motors or other types of controls. We mentioned

20 yesterday that if you have oversizing of the motor

21 or perfect sizing of the motor, depending on where

22 your pump is within the motor size bin, it might
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1 affect the loading of the motor and, A, will

2 affect how the losses are calculated, and in

3 specific for this, applying the load control

4 factor, it will affect -- this table up here is

5 the motor loading with the same pump but assuming

6 a 55-horsepower motor, a 60-horsepower motor, a

7 75-horsepower motor, and you can see how with a

8 75-horsepower motor, we reduce to almost 40

9 percent load, and it might be appropriate to

10 assume that both the 50 percent and the 75 percent

11 case, these two lines, drop down to low speed

12 instead of just the 50 percent loading case.

13 So there might be some more complex

14 calculations we want to account for in doing the

15 load control factor. We might want to not just

16 have a fixed value. One thought that I had was

17 for other than 2-to-1 windings, you could

18 calculate the reduced speed based on the actual

19 ratio of the speeds. So if it was 4-to-1

20 windings, you could calculate the ratio of the

21 speeds and reduce the power by that amount using

22 the system curve equation, so P2 would be P1 times
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1 the speed ratio to the 2.8 power in this case, or

2 whatever assumption we want to make.

3 This would result in a conservative

4 assumption because we don't know the shape of the

5 load curve down there, and so for our 2-to-1 case,

6 it worked out perfectly because 50 percent loading

7 is directly on the system curve, a 50 percent flow

8 is directly on the system curve. We would assume

9 that the 50 percent flow case was the same as the

10 flow at -- was the same power input as flow at

11 whatever our other speed was.

12 So this is sort of getting into the

13 details, but if this was instead like down here,

14 but 50 percent flow was like here because we have

15 more than 2-to-1, we have like a 4-to-1 ratio,

16 we're assuming that the power input to the motor

17 is on the system curve because we don't know what

18 the system curve shape is, and it has a different

19 -- the flow has a different relationship, the

20 reduction in flow is related to speed, but a

21 different relationship than the reduction in

22 power. So if we have less than 2-to-1, we're
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1 going to get off the system curve and we have to

2 make some assumptions. We're going to have to

3 think about that some more.

4 But other issues related to the load

5 control factor, other control options that we

6 might want to consider, is it desirable to make

7 load control factor technology neutral or able to

8 differentiate between technologies and how we

9 might do that? And we have made an assumption

10 about the efficiency of the control in this case.

11 That was to ensure that the calculation results in

12 a conservative rating. That could be a mechanism

13 for allowing for differentiation of controls based

14 on an improvement in efficiency, just full-load

15 efficiency, of that control if that data was

16 available. That's just one option.

17 So this is a comparison of the

18 calculated PERs. Just in summary, we have, with

19 this metric, accounted for, as you put on a more

20 efficient motor, you were able to reduce your PER

21 and get credit for that. If you put on a VFD,

22 that resulted in a best rating in this example,
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1 and a 2-speed motor gave you a better rating than

2 with no control at all, but it was not as good as

3 a VFD; in general, that's what we found. And as

4 we get to the denominator options, the values in

5 this table would change, but the ranking doesn't.

6 We always maintain that the bare pump case will be

7 the worst, and as you add on efficient motors or

8 controls, it will get better.

9 The test methods, as alternatives to the

10 calculation approach, if we were to -- there are

11 some products that might be more appropriate to

12 test instead of do a calculation if measuring

13 shaft input power is difficult for some reason or

14 -- it's typically always sold in a close-coupled

15 configuration. There are a number of reasons we

16 might want to apply this, or manufacturers just

17 want to as an alternative.

18 So this is HI 14.6, referred to as the

19 string test. You essentially just measure

20 directly the input power to the motor and throttle

21 the flow back to those four specific load points,

22 same four specific load points. So instead of
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1 applying a full- load motor efficiency and the

2 motor loss equation, you are just measuring that

3 value directly. And that will, we believe, based

4 on our motor loss curve, be better than the

5 calculation, so you'll get a better PER number

6 less power input to the motor system, the pump

7 motor system.

8 This is the equation here. We've seen

9 that a lot of times before. Yeah. We'll just --

10 I don't know if there is -- there is not really a

11 lot to add. It's a pretty simple test.

12 Then for the pump plus motor plus

13 controls options, it gets a little more

14 complicated when we talk about testing. There are

15 two options. There's an option where we test the

16 motor and drive together and apply that to tested

17 pump performance. That would be like the AHRI

18 1210 case where that type of data is available,

19 and we can do a similar calculation between the

20 motor and drive as a system, applying that to our

21 tested pump performance, or we can just test the

22 whole thing. So that's what we're going to talk -
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1 - we're going to talk through both those examples.

2 First we're going to do this one, the

3 AHRI 1210 case, which is a little complicated and

4 difficult because we don't have the data, but just

5 as an option, we have the same equation that we

6 saw with the bare pump plus motor case except for

7 now the denominator is the efficiency of the

8 drives, so the motor and the control system

9 together. And we get that efficiency value from

10 AHRI 1210.

11 These are the tests, the load points,

12 that are specified in AHRI 1210. What that test

13 basically does is similar to a pump test, it

14 calculates the efficiency or the input power and

15 the output power at specific speed and torque

16 points on the drive system, and it's essentially a

17 performance map. The difficulty is they are

18 changing two variables at once. As you can see in

19 the table, they're changing speed and torque. The

20 grayed out areas, they don't completely fill out

21 the matrix in the test, it's just this sort of

22 diagonal with a 40 percent speed and 16 percent
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1 torque. Speed refers to the column and torque

2 refers to the rows.

3 Yeah?

4 MR. CAPPELLINO: Say that again? Speed

5 is?

6 MS. WIDDER: Speed is down. Speed is 40

7 percent, 50 percent, 75 percent, and 100 percent

8 speed. And then torque is referring to the

9 columns: 16 percent, 25 percent, 56 percent, and

10 100 percent. And so we don't have a fully

11 completed matrix, but we have an idea of how the

12 efficiency of the drive changes with speed and

13 torque. We have a relationship as we move in two

14 dimensions. So we have a 3-dimensional curve in

15 space.

16 The way we've developed to match this

17 efficiency data, this 3-dimensional curve, to the

18 load points on the pump is to, based on our pump

19 data, we have rated speed and torque -- those are

20 both measured as part of 40.6 -- and so at each of

21 our load points, the four load points on the left22 hand column that we have been using all along, we
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1 can match those rated speed and torque to the

2 speed and torque points that we have from AHRI

3 1210, and we essentially have to do a double

4 interpolation. So we have to move in two

5 directions from this 3-dimensional drive curve.

6 So we're making the assumption that we

7 can linearly interpolate -- that's what we've done

8 here because we don't have any other information -

9 - but also the efficiency is not -- I mean, this

10 is not real data, I made up this data, but

11 hopefully the efficiency would not change

12 significantly. We don't have a lot of AHRI 1210

13 data, and so this is something we would have to

14 verify, but how we get from the 3-dimensional

15 curve to actually our load point somewhere in this

16 other region of 3-dimensional space is going to be

17 something we have to decide.

18 If we do the double linear

19 interpolation, this is just how it would go, these

20 are just two linear interpolation equations added

21 together. It looks like a lot, but essentially

22 we're trying to get -- so for the torque point, we
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1 land between here and here, so we would linearly

2 interpolate between 93 and 95, moving up from 92,

3 we would get something around like 94 percent, and

4 then the speed points were between 900 and 1,350.

5 So this is actually the more complicated case. In

6 a lot of cases, will be moving in the same

7 direction. In this case, we're interpolating up

8 from this load point in terms of torque and down

9 from this load point in terms of speed, and that's

10 accomplished in the equation, it just means that

11 the efficiency adjustment is positive in one case

12 and negative in one case from 93.

13 Yeah? Is it -- can we save it till the

14 end? We're really close. Or do you want to --

15 okay.

16 MR. BROOKMAN: We're very close. Yeah.

17 MS. WIDDER: So we got something. We

18 got something like 94 when we plugged in all the

19 data, 94 percent efficiency of our drive, and when

20 we apply that to the equation, we get a PER of

21 34.04 in this case, which, if we remember from the

22 previous slides, the control case with a VFD was
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1 35.15 I think it was. So we've done better in this

2 case based on all our assumptions.

3 MR. CAPPELLINO: Where did the 94 get

4 in?

5 MS. WIDDER: Where did the 94 get in?

6 Oop. Back here. So it's plugged in, in this

7 efficiency of the drive. And there is a lot of

8 actually -- so there are many, many calculations

9 in here that I didn't include in all of the

10 slides. I mean, I should make a sheet with all

11 these calculations. But to get this efficiency of

12 the drive number, we take the 94 percent that we

13 got here for this 75 percent load case, and then

14 we also have the efficiency of the motor and the

15 motor losses that all get calculated for each load

16 point, and so the efficiency that you're dividing

17 the pump shaft input power by is different at each

18 load point and will account for all of those

19 things. Oh, no, sorry. That was confusing. I

20 take that back. This is the tested case. This

21 accounts for the motor efficiency. We don't have

22 to do that separately. I take that back. I'm
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1 confusing myself.

2 This is combined motor drive efficiency.

3 We plug this number in directly for each load

4 point, so we calculate four of these. This is the

5 75 percent case, but we would calculate one for

6 100 percent of BEP flow, 110 percent of BEP flow,

7 and 50 percent of BEP flow. We would stick that

8 directly into the denominator here for each of the

9 cases, apply the pump input power from our tests,

10 and then the weighting.

11 Okay. And one other thing. So the pump

12 input power here would be assuming a speed curve

13 again. It would be assuming that you're moving

14 down a system curve since you only have pump

15 performance data as tested to 40.6, which is at

16 full speed.

17 Okay. So it's one way of getting to the

18 same place that we had with the calculation, but

19 instead of assuming motor efficiency and applying

20 motor losses and then assuming some factor, some

21 50 percent savings, that you get from control. We

22 now have rated efficiency that we can apply
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1 directly for the motor drive package, and then we

2 assume the same system curve for the pump. So

3 it's the same way of getting to the same place, or

4 different way of getting to the same place. We

5 got a better PER in this case.

6 This is just words explaining what I did

7 on the slides.

8 The full wire-to-water testing method I

9 don't think requires a lot of discussion. It's

10 just like wire-to-water testing for a bare pump

11 and motor, except for in this case we're not

12 throttling. You would sweep your pump curve,

13 measure rated points at 110 percent and 100

14 percent of BEP flow, and then find the other flow

15 points by just reducing the speed to the system.

16 So testing your pump with the drive that it's

17 going to be sold with and reducing speed to reach

18 a given flow with no throttling.

19 So this is just a comparison of the

20 calculation case. Oh, this is not right. Sorry.

21 So this was supposed to be a comparison of

22 calculation case, but now -- but both these charts
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1 are the same. So what I'm going to do -- that

2 didn't work very well.

3 MR. STARR: Well, the last number is

4 different.

5 MS. WIDDER: Yes. So I'm going to

6 change this in real time. So the testing case we

7 remember was -- you guys remember what it was?

8 It's a test. This is a quiz.

9 (Laughter.)

10 MS. WIDDER: 45.08. Yep, 45.08, the

11 calculation one. Well, I'll go back and fill that

12 out later. I'm going to move on because --

13 MR. BROOKMAN: Yeah.

14 MS. WIDDER: So if we compare those

15 methods, in general, the point of this slide --

16 and I apologize that the data weren't correct,

17 this is -- you know, we're all doing this sort of

18 within 2 weeks from the last meeting. But the

19 point of this slide -- sorry -- the point of this

20 slide was that if this were filled out correctly,

21 the calculation case would be a worse PER rating,

22 it would be conservative in every case, and we
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1 made sure that the assumptions were consistent

2 with that, and I can update the numbers to reflect

3 that in the tables, but I'm not going to right

4 now.

5 One thing to consider with the two

6 options, the calculation-based default and then

7 testing methods that will result in better

8 ratings, is we can allow that manufacturers or

9 parties certifying equipment have the option to

10 test, or we can require the calculation method for

11 all pumps. These are basically all options on the

12 table, and they can be applied to all pumps, no

13 pumps, some pumps, differently. So these are just

14 options.

15 The pros and cons, obviously, the

16 calculation method is less burdensome and very

17 repeatable because we all have the same

18 calculation. The physical test method is more

19 accurate, allows for better differentiation of

20 equipment, but it's more burdensome. I think

21 that's all clear.

22 So here is some of that sensitivity that
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1 I talked about before, looking at the load point

2 choices and the weighting and the denominators.

3 So the load points, all those calculations were

4 done with 50 percent, 75 percent, 100 percent, and

5 110 percent of BEP flow at the load points because

6 I felt like we had some general agreement that

7 those were pretty good assumptions. We also

8 looked at 75 percent, 100 percent, and 110

9 percent. We did look at keeping the

10 25 percent load point that we initially

11 talked about in there even though there is some

12 technical difficulty with that in the throttled

13 pump, and then different iterations of those

14 numbers: 25, 50, 75, 100. We looked at five flow

15 points. So basically any factorial combination of

16 those numbers.

17 I have just presented a couple extreme

18 examples and two representative examples here just

19 so you can see the effect. So the load profiles

20 that are in the table are the 25, 50, 75, and 100

21 percent of BEP flow that was initially presented

22 in the framework document, and then moving to 50
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1 percent, 75 percent, 100 percent, and 110 percent,

2 how that affects the rating. We also looked, just

3 as extreme cases, what is the maximum amount of

4 input -- or maximum amount of impact the load

5 point choice would have, look at, what if it was

6 just constant load at 25 percent loading and

7 constant load at 100 percent loading?

8 So you can see what the resultant PER

9 values are. These are assuming equal weighting

10 and no denominator. The main thing that I think

11 is -- or the key takeaway for me was that it

12 doesn't really matter that much with no 25 percent

13 load point. You are not going to -- the control

14 options will not look as good because there is no

15 -- so you can see that we don't get as good of

16 control performance as with the 25 percent load

17 points accounted for. So that's one point that I

18 think is worth bringing up. Other than that, I

19 think if we just all have the same load points,

20 something that's representative will be fine.

21 We also looked at weighting, the

22 weightings. These are the Omega terms. They have
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1 been assumed to be equally weighted in all these

2 calculations.

3 We also looked at what happens if you

4 apply a normal load curve. So this is the normal

5 curve. We assumed that it goes from zero to 120

6 percent of BEP flow. That was an assumption.

7 And there are two ways of selecting

8 values from this normal load curve. One is you

9 can pick the discrete values, which are

10 represented by the red blocks here, and normalize

11 them to one, and so in that case you are more

12 heavily weighting this 50 percent point because

13 it's higher on the curve, or you can do bins. So

14 that's what the green boxes represent. You can

15 integrate all of these points and assign them to

16 50 percent loading, and integrate all of these

17 points and assign them to 75 percent.

18 And I assumed that we integrated up to

19 the points. You could do a slice. There are a

20 lot of ways you could pick, slice and dice, the

21 normal load curve, but just looking at those two

22 examples, so here is what the weights would be if
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1 we have -- equal weighting is obviously the green

2 bar, the normalized bins where we integrate it up

3 are these light blue bars, and the normalized

4 discrete values are the dark blue bars, so in

5 general the discrete values, the more heavily

6 weighted, the lower load points. The bins less

7 so. We had the most weighting at a 75 percent

8 load, and then the equal weighting is equal

9 weighting.

10 And then this table just gives an

11 example of comparing the equal weighting to the

12 discrete values.

13 UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: They're all

14 exact --

15 MS. WIDDER: They're all the same.

16 These are not the right slides. Oh, my gosh. I'm

17 sorry.

18 So there are numbers that should be in

19 this table, too, that are not. These must not be

20 the most recent ones.

21 MR. BROOKMAN: Let's just keep moving

22 on.
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1 MS. WIDDER: Okay. Anyways, I -- but I

2 need that data. Okay, I'll fill it in.

3 So for the denominators, we talked about

4 the impact of the different denominators, whether

5 or not and why you would want to have a

6 denominator or not. In general, if you don't have

7 a denominator, you get very strong function of

8 speed and flow, and you also have larger numbers,

9 which makes it easier to differentiate changes in

10 efficiency. So when I put the efficient motor on,

11 my PER was reduced by 2 points in the example

12 case. If you normalize it, the numbers will be

13 not as large, they will be somewhere between zero

14 and 1, maybe a little bit higher than 1, depending

15 on what the denominator is. So if you apply a 95

16 percent efficient motor, it will change in the

17 hundredths place as opposed to in the single

18 digits place, just based on the magnitude of the

19 values. But it might be more intuitive to have

20 something that scales between zero and 1, so there

21 are pros and cons on both sides.

22 So these are some options that we
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1 considered previously. The power consumption of

2 the same pump. I really should take that off the

3 table. That's what the EEI is based on, but it's

4 not something that's applicable for this metric

5 necessarily. The referenced shaft power for a

6 minimally compliant pump would result in values

7 between zero and 1 and would help indicate the

8 performance of that pump to some minimum standard

9 level. We could also look at tying it to a market

10 average, so comparing that pump to some place in

11 the market that is representative of the typical

12 pump. That means that your values won't quite be

13 between zero and 1. You might have a pump that is

14 sold in the market that is slightly worse than the

15 market average, and so you would result in values

16 higher than 1. And then we could also just do the

17 pump's tested hydraulic power. That is the most -

18 - the simplest method, but it also does result in

19 values higher than 1.

20 But the tested hydraulic power is a

21 direct output of the test, of 40.6. So we have

22 those values, we don't have to do any other
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1 calculations or manipulation to them; they're part

2 of the test.

3 And we also discussed I think yesterday

4 that we could apply these at BEP only or we could

5 apply them at each load point. So we could

6 calculate a ratio at each load point as a

7 normalization or just have a static normalization.

8 In this case, that's a lot of options to

9 analyze. I just presented if we do a static

10 normalization based on BEP, so that would be the

11 equation that we've been showing. I should have

12 had an equation here, but the equation we've been

13 showing with the pump input power over one

14 denominator at BEP flow.

15 So that's what these cases represent

16 where the PER old is the PER we calculated in all

17 the examples we just went through, and then the

18 denominator is whatever, is the value, is

19 hydraulic power, is shaft power of the pump, is a

20 minimally compliant pump, which in this case is

21 associated with an MEI-10. Just these are

22 preliminary data, don't take them home, but that's
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1 just based on the data we have, something like an

2 MEI-10 and something like an MEI-50 for the market

3 average.

4 This would be the horsepower that would

5 be the value in the denominator, and then these

6 would be the resultant values for a bare shaft

7 pump, a pump plus motor, or a pump plus motor and

8 VFD. These are all a lot closer to 1 now that

9 they're normalized.

10 For the hydraulic power case, we get

11 values around 1, somewhat higher than 1; a little

12 bit less than 1 with a VFD. Shaft power accounts

13 for the efficiency of the pump, it doesn't account

14 for the efficiency of the motor controls in the

15 bottom. And then the minimally compliant market

16 average pump, you now have values between zero and

17 1, or can accomplish values between zero and 1.

18 So that's all that I have. Thank you

19 for being patient, everyone.

20 MR. BROOKMAN: That was a lot.

21 MS. WIDDER: It was a lot.

22 MR. BROOKMAN: Yeah. What's the best
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1 way to entertain questions? Shall we try and keep

2 them conceptual and high level first?

3 MS. WIDDER: No. I think it's time --

4 MR. BROOKMAN: Start at the beginning?

5 MS. WIDDER: I think we can get into the

6 details. I don't know if we want to go

7 chronologically or just whoever has questions.

8 MR. BROOKMAN: Well, let's start with

9 whoever has got questions.

10 Al Huber.

11 MS. WIDDER: Louis has a suggestion.

12 MR. BROOKMAN: Louis, yes.

13 MR. STARR: This is Louis Starr with

14 NEEA. I think it would be better if we just go

15 back to the slide deck again because --

16 MS. WIDDER: Yeah.

17 MR. STARR: -- it's a natural

18 progression of how the difficulties might go.

19 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay.

20 MS. WIDDER: Right.

21 MR. STARR: If you pump, that's going to

22 be ideal.
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1 MR. BROOKMAN: I saw Al first, then I

2 saw Steve, then I saw Chuck.

3 MR. HUBER: Al Huber, Patterson. Going

4 back -- and I'm not going to go all the way back

5 to the front of the slides; okay?

6 MS. WIDDER: Okay. Tell me where you

7 want to go.

8 MR. HUBER: My concern is, how are you

9 going to regulate it? In other words, when you're

10 looking at these factors of 50, 75, 100, and 110,

11 in the MEI, of course, we had three, and the way

12 the Europeans set it up, you had to meet all

13 three. If you miss one of them, you still didn't

14 pass. In other words, if you were low on the 75,

15 but you were okay on the 100 and 110, that pump

16 still didn't make it. So how you conceptually are

17 going to regulate it is important to us, as an

18 industry, so that we need to know that up front so

19 that when we pick these options and we pick these

20 things, we know we're not going to be favoring one

21 manufacturer over another because of where their

22 efficiency lies on that curve.
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1 MS. WIDDER: Right.

2 MR. HUBER: You understand what I'm

3 trying to say.

4 MS. WIDDER: Yeah. In this case, in

5 what we've just presented here -- and this is just

6 a proposal, it's not -- I mean, we can have a

7 discussion, and I don't know what the requirements

8 are -- but in this case, the standard would be a

9 PER, it would be something like 50-horsepower, and

10 then this pump would pass, and you could then

11 theoretically design a pump that was very

12 efficient at BEP and dropped off but would still

13 pass in this construct.

14 MR. ADIN: I think what Sarah is saying

15 is that there is one number. So there is a

16 standard based on one number and a rating that's

17 one number, and there is no three rating points in

18 this case, yeah. And so I guess a question from

19 our point, our side, would be, is there a

20 particular reason that it would be better to have

21 three or --

22 MR. HUBER: Well, it would prevent
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1 manufacturers from what Chuck was trying to relate

2 to you yesterday, and that is somebody trying to -

3 - and you can do that, that you can hit the peak

4 and you can hit it high enough, but that won't

5 help the customer because the customer may be

6 operating off of peak one way or the other, and he

7 may be disadvantaged, the customer. The consumer

8 may be disadvantaged because he may not be

9 operating there.

10 MR. BROOKMAN: Yeah. Let's let Chuck

11 follow on. Yeah. Microphone.

12 MR. POWERS: Chuck Powers from

13 Flowserve. I would enjoy going through each

14 slide. It adds value to give feedback.

15 MR. BROOKMAN: Yeah, let's do that.

16 MR. POWERS: But I want to back up.

17 Here's where I want to back up. We would go

18 through and try to ask questions and try to say

19 that's good, that's not, but getting back to Al's

20 point, until we understand the full picture at

21 this level, going through these slides now would

22 be great, no problem, we can add comments, you can
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1 go back because there are a bunch of errors and

2 there are odds and ends, but you've done a great

3 job, but I want to step back for a minute and just

4 look at this bigger picture.

5 MS. WIDDER: Okay.

6 MR. POWERS: And here's why. Bear with

7 me.

8 Number one, I've been through a lot of

9 these in the past and companies and pump guys and

10 consultants have all made mistakes and we've paid

11 for it over the years. Okay?

12 Rule number one is we need to look at a

13 high level and say to ourselves, okay, whatever we

14 end up agreeing to here, should we give it a

15 gestation period, meaning we've agreed to one

16 before, there is a date we want to have it comply,

17 but should we say it will apply to X amount over

18 time?

19 Here's why. What if we overlook

20 something and all of a sudden 50 percent of the

21 manufacturers out there are in trouble, not

22 because we've done something wrong, not because
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1 we're trying to hedge them, or to Al's point, keep

2 guys out of it and other guys in of it, but what

3 if all of a sudden we have an uproar because of

4 the fact that we've overlooked something and we

5 cause some serious concern with people?

6 So rule number one, one guideline

7 recommendation being, how can we somehow hedge

8 this to say it's only going to apply to 10 percent

9 of the products new going out, 20 percent, 30

10 percent? You know, I'm trying to look at so we

11 can start to get the feeling of the impact. I

12 don't know how we're going to do that so we don't

13 have a disaster on our hands a year from now and

14 realize we overlooked something here we didn't

15 pick up on; right? Number one. Because we only

16 have a representative group here; right?

17 Number two, the weighting factors is a

18 big one; right? Like Al was bringing up, three

19 versus the others you have. There are assumptions

20 made in here to basic math that say you do a good

21 job, but you put stuff in without, you know,

22 really understanding you've change the affinity
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1 laws a little bit, you know, and you're making, "I

2 think I'll just do it this way." My worry is

3 practical experience versus theoretical

4 experience; right? You're doing it from an

5 analytical/theoretical, but you may not have a lot

6 of practical experience. So when head goes by the

7 square and power goes by the cube, we develop

8 stuff certain ways over the years, that's the

9 practical way we develop hydraulics in products.

10 The third thing that concerns me, it's

11 getting to a level that Charlie and I for sure

12 see, maybe some of the manufacturers, of the

13 engineered products. You know, we see engineered

14 big 5,000- horse, 4,000, we deal with this every

15 day, multiple shape of curves, how are we going to

16 play with it? These little standardized thousands

17 of pumps a day that go out the door, they make

18 them one way, and if you want to tweak them at 25

19 percent or tweak them at 50 percent, they're going

20 to look at you saying, "Look, I've got 2,000

21 castings sitting on the shelf. What do you want me

22 to do? I tried to meet you in the first place,
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1 and now you're hedging me, and we're in trouble as

2 a manufacturer, and we're done. We're not going

3 to make any of these." You know what I mean?

4 So what I'm trying to say is we could go

5 through and look at each one of these, but until

6 we understand the bigger picture, I don't

7 necessarily want to agree to anything here, not

8 that I don't want to because I have to, but we

9 need to understand this better --

10 UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: Sure.

11 MS. WIDDER: Yeah.

12 MR. POWERS: -- and to really understand

13 the impact. And we're starting to play with

14 mathematics here that's different than the way

15 Einstein wrote it, you know, so to speak.

16 MR. BROOKMAN: But, Steve, let me stick

17 with the -- Charlie, you're next -- with the

18 manufacturers and just hear some of these

19 additional -- let's fill out the concerns here.

20 Go ahead, Charlie.

21 MR. CAPPELLINO: Charlie Cappellino,

22 ITT. So I like the concept of having fundamentally
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1 three different ways of looking at the systems,

2 you know, the bare pump, the bare pump plus motor,

3 and the bare pump plus motor plus drive. There is

4 a lot of complexity, frankly, because of that,

5 which creates a lot of different scenarios and

6 different variations.

7 So I kind of go back to a couple of

8 comments that were made earlier. I think before I

9 would want to make a decision on the acceptability

10 or such, I think we've got to answer and spend

11 some time on two questions. One is put yourself

12 in the shoes of a manufacturer and say, how would

13 I implement this? And kind of walk us through

14 that. And what would be the steps that I would

15 have to go through to actually implement? What

16 kind of calculations? What kind of testing? And

17 create a scenario and say, if I've got, you know,

18 300 pumps that I need to qualify, what would I do?

19 And kind of walk us through that.

20 And then the second question is the same

21 one that was raised earlier, is, how would I

22 regulate that?
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1 MS. WIDDER: Right.

2 MR. CAPPELLINO: And so I think you have

3 to spend just as much time on that piece of it as

4 the piece that you presented thus far because the

5 complexity of the implementation or the simplicity

6 of the implementation -- I mean, elegant solutions

7 are always the best solutions; right?

8 MS. WIDDER: Mm-hmm.

9 MR. CAPPELLINO: Elegant in design is,

10 hey, I get my intended purpose but with as much

11 simplicity as I can. I think that's what we've

12 got to strive for here because there are hundreds

13 of pumps that need to be, quote/unquote,

14 qualified, and then, you know, there are hundreds

15 of pumps that get quoted every minute across the

16 country, and how are we going to wrap the

17 practicality around that?

18 MS. WIDDER: Right.

19 MR. CAPPELLINO: So simplifying

20 assumptions that at the same time don't create an

21 advantage or disadvantage for one manufacturer or

22 another but at the same time have it practical
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1 from an implementation standpoint would be my

2 comment.

3 MS. WIDDER: Right.

4 MR. BROOKMAN: Steve, do you have a

5 simple question or a difficult question?

6 MR. ROSENSTOCK: I'll just start with a

7 high level of concepts. I wrote down notes. You

8 told me to write down notes. I have notes on

9 different slides, but --

10 MR. BROOKMAN: I think we're at the

11 point where we'll return and we'll go

12 sequentially.

13 MR. ROSENSTOCK: I have a couple of

14 high- level thoughts here. This is really good

15 information. Personally, I have trouble without a

16 denominator here because I think the way it's

17 presented now will cause possible market

18 confusion. We have all these examples of a pump

19 with a 60-horsepower motor as a driver. That's the

20 full -- basically the example throughout these

21 slides. You have these different PER levels that

22 say 45- or 37-horsepower, for example, as the
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1 final output.

2 There might some customers -- I've deal

3 with a lot of customers when I was with Utility

4 and at EEI that I have a funny feeling in my

5 personal opinion they would say, "Gee, the PER

6 says 45-horsepower. Why do I need a 60-horsepower

7 motor? Why are you oversizing the motor?"

8 MR. BROOKMAN: Right.

9 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Because it's not

10 intrinsically understandable. I think there needs

11 to be some sort of denominator in there that says

12 for this system, this is the relative efficiency

13 of that product. I think that's important

14 regardless of whether it's bare pump, pump plus

15 motor, pump plus motor plus controls. I know how

16 much work went into it, but I'm just saying

17 intrinsically.

18 The second thing I wanted to say is --

19 and it kind of leads back to the example, and I

20 appreciate that one slide, but in terms of let's

21 talk about smaller pumps, smaller pump motors.

22 Let's say you have a choice of a 5- or a 7.5-
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1 horsepower, or 7.5 to a 10, where the incremental

2 costs might not be that great, but you do some of

3 these equations, and just because the efficiencies

4 -- the incremental efficiency is significantly

5 higher going from 7.5 to 10, both at full load and

6 part load, you get a better PER.

7 Again, I worry about, is this leading to

8 people just oversizing to get lower PERs, which

9 means they might get a market advantage?

10 So, again, just the two concepts up

11 there in terms of I have specific, but that was

12 kind of my general --

13 MS. WIDDER: Okay.

14 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Gary Fernstrom.

15 MS. WIDDER: So --

16 MR. BROOKMAN: Do you want to respond?

17 MS. WIDDER: Well, I feel like there was

18 some high-level concern about how this works from

19 a certification standpoint and how it compares to

20 the standard, that do we want to stay on that

21 discussion or --

22 MR. BROOKMAN: Well, let's hear a few
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1 more overview comments, and then we'll start

2 addressing them.

3 MS. WIDDER: Okay. Great.

4 MR. BROOKMAN: Gary Fernstrom.

5 MR. FERNSTROM: So Gary, representing

6 the California IOUs. Maybe this is a naive

7 question, but it kind of follows on to Charlie and

8 Steve's thought, where we're developing a scale

9 here, and there will be a standard set for sure,

10 but I'm wondering how we would use this scale to

11 implement a utility energy efficiency program. So

12 I'm looking for some metric to characterize the

13 energy efficiency performance from just meets

14 standard to better, maybe significantly better

15 than the standard, and I'm not understanding how

16 we would use this number to drive the efficiency

17 program. And it would be helpful as we move

18 forward to kind of address that.

19 MR. BROOKMAN: Paul Lin.

20 MR. LIN: Paul Lin with Regal-Beloit.

21 Maybe just to tack on a question in terms of

22 certification, but before we get to certification,
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1 I guess maybe the question I have is how the value

2 is going to get derived in terms of the minimum

3 standard. So if we have a PER setting or equation

4 here, and at some point we're going to set a value

5 that you have to meet, how is that value going to

6 be determined in order for these manufacturers to

7 meet it? What's the process? Is it a regression

8 analysis based on X amount of pumps tested and

9 then a value is then determined or --

10 MS. WIDDER: And so it will be set in

11 the same way that -- so it will be set based on

12 efficiency, potential efficiency, improvements of

13 the pump, the hydraulic performance of the pump,

14 only. So in the PER equation, that's represented

15 in the pump shaft power input for a given flow and

16 head condition, and essentially we would look at

17 how the pump shaft power could be decreased at a

18 given flow and head condition. Just like in other

19 rulemakings where we consider potential

20 improvements to equipment, we will consider

21 potential improvements to the pump design that

22 will make the pump perform better and will reduce
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1 the pump shaft input power or increase the

2 efficiency of the pump and then plug that into the

3 equation just like it was -- plug it into the bare

4 shaft pump equation to determine the PER in that

5 case and then it will be the same standards

6 analysis accounting for the cost of those

7 efficiency improvements. We went through some of

8 the steps really briefly yesterday.

9 Yeah.

10 MR. ADIN: So, I'm sorry, I don't mean

11 to interrupt.

12 MS. WIDDER: No. Go for it, please.

13 MR. BROOKMAN: Lucas.

14 MR. ADIN: Was your question more about

15 how a standard is determined using this particular

16 metric, or how we get to a baseline for the market

17 and then establish a threshold level? Because

18 there is a process that we use by which we

19 determine what the current market baseline is,

20 like what all the pumps out there look like now,

21 the range of efficiencies, and then establish

22 different cutoff levels. So is that really more
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1 what your question is about or --

2 MR. LIN: It's Paul Lin with Regal. I

3 think it's a little bit of both of what you asked.

4 MR. ADIN: Okay. So everything that

5 Sarah said is correct, but that's one dimension of

6 it, and then the other part is this underlying,

7 how do you determine the state of the market now

8 and then there are certain efficiency, level of

9 efficiency, improvements, so 10 percent, 20

10 percent, 30 percent. We talked about that a little

11 bit yesterday. And so you're evaluating each of

12 those potential standard levels of efficiency

13 improvement above the baseline.

14 MR. BROOKMAN: Tom Eckman.

15 MR. ECKMAN: I think from a practical

16 standpoint we negotiate what those are. That's

17 the bottom line. We'll have all this analysis,

18 but in the end, we've got to come to an agreement

19 about what those endpoints are.

20 MR. LIN: Right. And I think that's

21 maybe what more of my question is, is --

22 MR. ECKMAN: It's in this room or some
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1 room like this.

2 MR. LIN: We're going to define the PER

3 equation, and then the next step then is going to

4 determine what the base improvement is going to

5 be, or is that going to be the purview of the DOE

6 in terms of determining what the improvements are

7 and then --

8 MR. ECKMAN: My understanding is the

9 reason this workgroup was formed was to come to an

10 agreement about what that's going to be.

11 MR. BROOKMAN: That's my understanding

12 as well.

13 MR. ADIN: To explain like how we would

14 get numbers to negotiate on, we decide on this,

15 and then use this to come up with some different

16 scenarios, different standard, potential standard,

17 levels, and look at what all the economic and

18 energy saving numbers would look like based upon

19 each of those scenarios. So there would be

20 certain lifecycle costs, certain payback periods,

21 for the pumps we're considering based upon each of

22 those improvements, and then we negotiate on the
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1 basis of whatever those results are. Does that

2 help a little bit?

3 MR. LIN: Yeah.

4 MR. ADIN: Okay.

5 MR. BROOKMAN: Chuck Powers.

6 MR. POWERS: Yeah. So this conversation

7 is excellent. Right? So I'm just trying to go

8 through my head. Let's take a standard end9 suction pump that there are numbers here that

10 shows it's made by the thousands. Right? A

11 company like ourselves and probably every one of

12 the guys at this table -- guys or girls -- would

13 today get a sand casting. We don't take that one

14 sand casting and say, "Here's the efficiency."

15 Right? We test several of them, we play with

16 them, because sand casting technology, there is a

17 lot of play. So the one on the shelf over here

18 this day -- I'm picking a dumb number -- 75

19 percent, but the one over there when you test it

20 is 74 percent, the one over here. So when we come

21 out with published data, most manufacturers try to

22 average it and try to say, "Okay, we think the
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1 range is going to be 74-1/2," I'm just picking a

2 number.

3 Then there are newer technologies, and

4 the newer technologies is getting into lost foam.

5 You can get into composite materials where you get

6 repeatability, sustainability, and better, and

7 there's a lot of factors. Right? But all that

8 stuff costs a lot of money. Right? So will the

9 market bear that? Will the market pay for these

10 newer technologies and all? And generally

11 speaking somebody might say, well, that guy that

12 walks into Lowe's expects to buy that thing the

13 same price each day, he doesn't expect to see a

14 double in price -- right? -- for what it's worth.

15 But then it also opens up the offshore

16 manufacturers to come to the stage with that

17 product because their cost to build it, their cost

18 to do those lost foam, where this technology is,

19 and some of the stuff offshore, is better, is

20 lower cost to do. So all of a sudden we might see

21 a degradation of the U.S.

22 manufacturers and then improvement for
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1 the guys offshore to come to the States and say,

2 "Look, we can meet that because we're going to do

3 it with lost foam, we haven't been doing it for

4 100 years with sand castings." I'm not saying

5 sand castings shouldn't migrate, but then you go

6 to this manufacturer and say, "We're going to have

7 100 of your pumps are going to change tomorrow,"

8 100 models of that particular thing changing

9 tomorrow, that will impact him tremendously.

10 Right?

11 So Charlie touched on it, my friend at

12 the end touched on it, is, what are we setting and

13 what is the process we're going to go through to

14 try to make sure it's as reasonable as possible

15 for the players involved?

16 UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: Yeah.

17 MR. POWERS: You know what I mean? We

18 have to look beyond just -- whatever we end up

19 agreeing here is great. You know, Sarah is trying

20 to get some kind of formation.

21 The other thing that we have to take

22 note on is just also what kind of benefit -- you
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1 know, I heard from Gary, I like that idea. In

2 other words, do we say here is the normal level we

3 see today in efficiency on a product, and we would

4 like to see a X percent improvement over 5 years?

5 Do you know what I mean? Do we want to say, okay,

6 here the calculations come out and say we think

7 across the board for this particular product,

8 efficiencies or whatever is X? And we, as an

9 industry, want to see both sides of the fence

10 here, we want to see an X percent improvement over

11 5 years, but what is that pain we go through to

12 get there and how quickly do we do it?

13 UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: Yeah.

14 MS. WIDDER: So -- oh, sorry. Go ahead.

15 MR. BROOKMAN: No, I was just going to

16 restate what Lucas said a moment ago. I think,

17 from my perspective, Sarah has tried to create a

18 lot of content that covers the array of pump

19 configuration options that we have been

20 describing, pumps plus pump plus driver plus pump

21 plus driver plus control, and maybe she's made it

22 a little too complicated in an effort to cover all
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1 those bases. But irrespective, whatever this

2 working group decides is the way that efficiency

3 will be measured will be the basis for measurement

4 going forward, and then for any given pump that is

5 in scope, you all will then be negotiating how

6 stringent to make the standard. That's the most

7 basic -- that's the very most basic way this is

8 supposed to work.

9 MS. WIDDER: And I think one important

10 point is I completely acknowledge that the metric

11 for determining pump performance may be completely

12 different than what we just went through now. I

13 mean, it could be anything based on what the

14 committee in this room decides. And I think we

15 all respect that it's going to have implications

16 for what the standard is, but we need -- in order

17 to be able to calculate potential standard levels

18 and have this discussion around, "How much does it

19 cost? What is the burden for manufacturers to

20 improve pump performance this much? And how does

21 that improve our rating versus how the market will

22 bear that?" in order to have all these discussions
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1 and have real numbers to support potential energy

2 improvements and the impact, the national impact,

3 we need to have a basis for analysis, which is

4 really -- so we're not going to decide on all of

5 these things today, and even if we decide anything

6 today, it won't be set in stone necessarily.

7 But in order to move forward and come up

8 with some of those potential levels and talk about

9 costs and impacts and have this more high-level

10 discussion with some real information, we need to

11 be able to decide on a couple key things, like if

12 this general framework works, then we can start

13 moving forward and gathering data about what the

14 market looks like today at these load points and

15 what types of -- if we were to improve pump

16 performance by polishing or by doing some of these

17 other incremental improvements that I know Dan and

18 his team have been talking to manufacturers about,

19 we can do that at the next meeting once we have a

20 construct to represent pump performance with. So

21 that's really the goal of today.

22 MR. BROOKMAN: Lucas Adin.
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1 MR. ADIN: So I don't know if I have

2 actually anything more specific to add beyond what

3 Sarah just said, and I think Alison might have a

4 couple of points, too. But getting to Chuck's

5 question, I mean, I think the best way to

6 summarize all of this is that at the end of the

7 day it is a cost-benefit analysis, so the things

8 that you described are costs, and those are

9 accounted for, and each of those scenarios will

10 look at whatever percentage improvement over that

11 baseline there are costs associated with it, and

12 we're comparing that to the energy savings,

13 savings to consumers, all that. It's a balance.

14 MR. BROOKMAN: And looking at employment

15 impacts and all those features.

16 MR. POWERS: I hope so because when the

17 health care program came out, it didn't work day

18 one.

19 (Laughter.)

20 MR. POWERS: And we don't need that

21 repeated. In this type of manufacturing world, we

22 don't need that repeated.
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1 MR. BROOKMAN: Al?

2 Understood.

3 Go ahead.

4 MR. HUBER: I think maybe some of our

5 folks are not as familiar as some of the rest of

6 us. The reason that you -- my understanding, the

7 reason that -- and correct me if I'm wrong, Lucas,

8 so this is basically directed to you, I think --

9 the reason that we're trying to go for one metric

10 is because you can't -- it was HI's desire to

11 bring the motor and the control in because we

12 believe that's where the greater savings are. And

13 legally or whatever, you can't have two metrics.

14 Am I wrong on that or am I right on that or is

15 that -- I mean, the Europeans have got an MEI for

16 the pump and they've got an EEI for the system.

17 Okay? You're trying to combine it into one, and

18 that's one of the things that's making it very

19 difficult, I think. That -- yeah. I think some

20 of our people don't see that. You're forcing this

21 into one metric because you think you have to, I

22 guess.
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1 MR. ADIN: That's my understanding.

2 Certainly to the extent that --

3 MS. KOHL: As I understood it --

4 MR. BROOKMAN: That was Lucas. Now

5 Betsy.

6 MS. KOHL: -- the issue is comparability

7 with this metric, that there would be a way to

8 have everything be EEI with just one metric.

9 Right? MEI is bare pump, but if you pair it with

10 your standard motor -- the issue, as I understand

11 it, there is not a dual metric prohibition, it's

12 not a legal issue, it's a comparability issue.

13 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Back to Lucas.

14 MR. ADIN: Thanks for clarifying, Betsy.

15 I don't think I have anything to add to that.

16 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Louis and then to

17 Meg.

18 MR. STARR: So one is a question and

19 then another one is a suggestion.

20 So I guess the kind of much bigger

21 picture, I had always envisioned the intent was

22 kind of to sort of decide on an MEI and negotiate
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1 those levels and then to kick out some kind of

2 metric that reflects that. And so, I mean, I

3 understand that they're trying to stick with one

4 metric, and that's kind of -- and comparing pumps,

5 bare pumps, to things that have VFDs or other

6 control options, it's kind of why you're trying to

7 keep the one same metric, so you can compare

8 apples to oranges between the cross --

9 MR. BROOKMAN: Right. So that the

10 consumer could look at --

11 MR. STARR: For the consumer, but --

12 MR. BROOKMAN: -- some rendering of that

13 and make a choice.

14 MR. STARR: You could also do a metric

15 and than have another one that's reported like you

16 do with motors. So you do a full motor load

17 efficiency that's the requirement, but then you

18 also report something at 50 percent, but you're

19 not regulated on the second one.

20 MR. BROOKMAN: Yeah.

21 MR. STARR: So if it's just a question

22 of trying to match up -- but, anyway, my main
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1 point is that actually I start to see someone is

2 trying to drive up there. I think the pump guys

3 understand MEI. If you were to ask them, if we

4 decide on a level, they could come back tomorrow

5 with the analysis they've done because they've

6 spent the last 3 years, and they'll know kind of

7 what the effect of adjusting an MEI level is. By

8 doing the PER, it's going to be a much harder

9 thing for them to know how that's going to affect

10 them and their --

11 MR. BROOKMAN: Let me go to Mark.

12 Mark?

13 MR. HANDZEL: And just to follow up

14 perfectly along with Lucas -- I mean, Louis, I'm

15 sorry -- he's exactly on track because what's in

16 the manufacturers' scope of control? The pump.

17 So, you know, that's why we're struggling, because

18 that would define things very specifically for us,

19 and you're right, we've done enough analysis, we

20 know, we have a very comfortable feeling of where

21 we think we need to be.

22 MR. BROOKMAN: I note that Alison has
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1 walked to the board here.

2 Go ahead. Go ahead.

3 MS. WILLIAMS: All right. So I just

4 want to respond to a couple of things, including

5 Mark. So, I mean, I think what we've talked about

6 before is that how we would potentially set a

7 standard would be basically starting with the MEI

8 levels, and this group could pick whatever MEI

9 levels that you want to look at, and Dan and I

10 will use those in our analyses and present the

11 results for each of those levels. And what we

12 would do is just -- you know, we would agree on

13 how we were going to do the default motor and

14 agree on what the default controls is, maybe it's

15 1, and so you're essentially just translating the

16 MEI levels to PER. So you understand the MEI, you

17 only have control over the bare pump and so this

18 is really the same thing, it's just a mathematical

19 translation of the MEI to a PER. That's how

20 potentially you would set the standard.

21 Yes, you can then use the metric to

22 get credit for better motors and controls, but in
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1 the actual standard-setting process, it can really

2 just be a calculation, a translational thing,

3 where you guys can think about MEI and how you

4 want MEI to be. We can decide on how you do this.

5 You can calculate it for all your pumps and see

6 what it looks like. It's not going to be exactly

7 the same as the MEI. We know there is a little

8 bit different when you plug it in, so you should

9 certainly look at that for your pumps and see what

10 happens, but it should be pretty much the same

11 frame of reference as you're used to with the

12 MEI.

13 MS. WIDDER: And then the other thing

14 that I would add to that really quickly, just to

15 emphasize something else instead, is this is how

16 the standard would be set based on MEI, based on

17 some efficiency level of the pump, and then just

18 default assumptions that we assume in this room to

19 set a standard level in terms of PER, but then the

20 benefit of the construct that we just talked about

21 is when you're a pump -- so then we set a number

22 in this room and that's done, let's say it's 50
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1 just for example, and so 50 is out there for a

2 given class of pump, but then as we talked through

3 in the examples, if I am a pump manufacturer

4 certifying my pump, I test my pump and I apply the

5 default equation, and I get some number slightly

6 better than 50, so I'm okay. If I got some number

7 slightly above 50, I could elect to sell that pump

8 with high-efficiency motors only and do no

9 hydraulic redesign whatsoever and still beat 50,

10 or I could sell that pump only with motors and

11 controls and significantly beat 50.

12 I mean, there may be different -- there

13 are a lot of different standards that we will

14 consider, but it gives more options to

15 manufacturers as to how they approve the PER even

16 though that won't be considered in the latest --

17 MR. BROOKMAN: Well, good. Okay.

18 Steve Rosenstock.

19 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Steve Rosenstock, EEI.

20 I don't see why we can't have multiple metrics.

21 There are multiple metrics for other products out

22 there. Residential central air conditioners next
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1 year in certain parts of the country will have

2 both SEER and EER. Many ASHRAE commercial

3 products have -- especially for heating or

4 cooling, they have an integrated value, IPLV,

5 IEER, as well as a full-load value.

6 So because customers are buying -- in my

7 view, they're buying three different systems.

8 They're buying just a bare pump system, a bare

9 pump and a motor, bare pump motor control, in my

10 view, it's three separate purchasers, or

11 especially with a bare pump, it's just a

12 replacement. So why couldn't there be multiple

13 metrics?

14 I would feel better about, for example,

15 if we just said something like if you're just

16 buying a bare pump, customers are just buying a

17 bare pump, if there was a way to do I'll say just

18 an MEI, that's how it should be rated. If they're

19 buying the pump and the motor, it could be MEI

20 plus whatever the other metric is for that type of

21 system. And then for the controls, a third set of

22 systems because obviously either, especially for
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1 replacement situations, you could get all three.

2 So why not have -- I think it might be better in

3 the marketplace to have three separate metrics.

4 That's my own personal view. Because that way a

5 customer can compare apples to apples for their

6 especially replacement situation, not new, but

7 especially replacement.

8 MS. KOHL: So this is Betsy Kohl, DOE

9 OGC. There are some statutory authority for

10 different metrics for different products are set

11 by statute. We don't have that here. So that's

12 why, as we understand it, we're limited to a

13 single metric, a single standard. But we didn't

14 understand the MEI EEI to have that prohibition,

15 but it's very similar to the MEI feeding into PER,

16 which is what we were looking at.

17 MS. WIDDER: Right. And I think one --

18 MR. BROOKMAN: Let's hear from Al Huber.

19 Al Huber.

20 MR. HUBER: One of the things that at

21 least when we met with this group over here that

22 we were trying to do, and that's to drive the
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1 marketplace to a more efficient operation of the

2 equipment. So I understand why we need one. I

3 mean, I understand it. I just want to make sure

4 everybody else understood why the desire to have

5 one metric so that you could compare one against

6 the other.

7 One of the things that I think a lot of

8 our group would like to see is -- psychologically,

9 as something gets better, it gets bigger. I mean,

10 it's just like the SEER rating. You know, if I go

11 buy an air conditioner today, you know, I don't

12 know want to buy a 10, I want to buy a 16. So I

13 think -- I'm serious. I mean, that's -- and it's

14 psychologically out there. I think you need to

15 think about those things and make it as simple for

16 the consumer as you can and try to make it where

17 the better option is the one with the higher

18 rating rather than what you've done. And I'm not

19 criticizing what you've done, but, you know, they

20 might not understand that 35 -- somebody might

21 pick that up and say, "Well, this one is 50, this

22 is 35, this 50 has got to be better." Well, it's
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1 not, but, you know, psychologically I think we

2 need to consider that.

3 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay.

4 MS. WIDDER: Okay.

5 MR. BROOKMAN: Thank you. We've heard

6 some discussion on these lines previously.

7 Meg.

8 MS. WALTNER: Meg Waltner. So a follow

9 up question on the multiple metrics issue. So I

10 see two sort of big questions within multiple

11 metrics. One is so we have these different pump

12 categories, and do we use one metric for all of

13 them, or do we use different metrics for all of

14 them? And then within any individual metric,

15 there is the question of, do we average whatever

16 the value is over multiple test points, or do we

17 have a standard set for, you know, like the

18 European standard, at three different test points?

19 Betsy, are you saying we can only have

20 one metric in either of those pieces or -- and in

21 particular, is it an option to have a standard

22 where the standard would be set at multiple test
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1 points rather than an average of the test points?

2 MS. KOHL: So my understanding of it is

3 that the first issue is somewhat clearer. We

4 would have one metric for pumps, but as far as at

5 the different load points, I think there may be a

6 little bit of flexibility there. We haven't

7 really thought that one through, but it's not as

8 clear-cut at least to us to have --

9 MR. ADIN: Yeah. I don't think we ever

10 set a standard on that basis. I'm trying to think

11 whether there are any statutory standards that are

12 like that, but I'm not aware that there are.

13 MR. BROOKMAN: Tom Eckman.

14 MR. ECKMAN: Well, the SEER standards

15 are basically over a range of operating

16 temperatures.

17 UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: Right.

18 MR. ECKMAN: So the metric represents a

19 seasonal performance factor and not a point in

20 time. The EER represents a fixed temperature,

21 single point.

22 MS. WIDDER: Right.
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1 UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: Right.

2 MR. ECKMAN: And so you've got them

3 both.

4 MS. WIDDER: Right.

5 MR. ECKMAN: So there are options on

6 however you want to play this golf game. Get a

7 provisional shot, see if it works or not.

8 (Laughing.)

9 MS. WIDDER: Right. That's sort of what

10 we're trying to accomplish here, is the same thing

11 as SEER and EER rolling up performance at multiple

12 points into one.

13 UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: That's

14 right.

15 MS. WIDDER: So from a legal

16 perspective, I guess we'll have to discuss --

17 discover whether or not that's possible, but from

18 a practical standpoint, adapting levels at -- or

19 adapting standards at each of the load points that

20 we were to determine, whether there are three or

21 four or what they are, whatever they are, it will

22 decrease the flexibility manufacturers have when
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1 producing pumps.

2 You know, if there is a customer out

3 there who has a fixed head, fixed load condition,

4 he just wants really good performance at that

5 fixed load condition and doesn't really care,

6 you're able to optimize performance at that

7 condition, and he doesn't really care about the

8 broadness of his curve, and that's completely

9 appropriate. Such a metric would make it more

10 difficult to design that type of pump because it

11 would require a broader pump shape, which is what

12 Europe has done. It's not a bad thing, it's just

13 a fact, that's what would happen.

14 MR. BROOKMAN: Louis Starr.

15 MR. STARR: So two things. One thing,

16 to get into the SEER thing, you could introduce

17 hours of operation in there, and you're sort of

18 making some of those assumptions, and then instead

19 of a horsepower, you would actually be getting

20 kilowatt hours, and then that would -- and, as a

21 matter of fact, I sort of sent you something along

22 that line.
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1 MS. WIDDER: Yeah. So the weighting

2 could do that if we just assigned hours to the

3 weights.

4 MR. STARR: Right. Yeah. It would also

5 help out the utility programs because you could

6 then actually have an energy usage that you could

7 calculate.

8 MS. WIDDER: Sure.

9 MR. STARR: The other thing is, as

10 Joanna and Tom have assured me, that --

11 (Laughter.)

12 MR. STARR: -- the pump -- that really

13 all you're introducing in here is a controls

14 factor and a motor factor times an MEI. That's

15 essentially what the calculation breaks down to.

16 MS. WIDDER: Yep.

17 MR. STARR: You could actually isolate

18 it so that's really how it -- I mean, you did it

19 with the load control factor -- right? -- you have

20 an LCF.

21 MS. WIDDER: Mm-hmm.

22 MR. STARR: And then if that was done on
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1 the motor, a motor control factor, somehow and so

2 that you could really just stick an MEI in and

3 then multiply it by times two factors, I think

4 that would help understand that that really works

5 that --

6 MR. BROOKMAN: So let's hear from Greg.

7 MS. WIDDER: So the --

8 MR. BROOKMAN: Let's hear from Greg.

9 MS. WIDDER: Okay.

10 UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: I think she

11 has a response.

12 MS. WIDDER: I think it's really -- it's

13 going to be really short, I promise.

14 MR. BROOKMAN: Yes, go ahead.

15 MS. WIDDER: But in that response to

16 that, because I think it's a really good

17 suggestion. The difficulty with plugging in -- I

18 mean, we could plug in pump efficiency instead of

19 pump shaft power at each of the load points, but I

20 think in order to capture the SEER-like nature of

21 this, we need the value at each of the load

22 points, it can't just be a one number plug-and-
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1 chug sort of thing. Otherwise, you're not able to

2 apply the weighting at each of the load points and

3 capture the performance at each of the load

4 points, but we could certainly flip the P and have

5 it be efficiency of the pump and then bring in

6 pump hydraulic power or something to accomplish

7 the same thing. Does that make sense?

8 UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: Yeah.

9 MS. WIDDER: Okay.

10 MR. BROOKMAN: You're number three,

11 Steve.

12 Greg and then Charlie.

13 MR. CASE: Greg Case, Hydraulic

14 Institute. I don't have a problem. I think to

15 follow what Louis was saying, we could make that a

16 variable. That could be the pump control factor

17 or whatever. I mean, that could become a very

18 simplified -- your big equation could drop down to

19 that one variable that we create. So I don't think

20 there is a problem there.

21 I think your denominator, there were

22 very small changes when you -- so if we had a
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1 denominator in there that made very small changes,

2 multiply that by 1,000, and you end up with being

3 able to see what the changes are.

4 MS. WIDDER: Right.

5 MR. CASE: People have a physical, "Oh,

6 well, this is 1,000 this and this is --

7 MS. WIDDER: Right.

8 MR. CASE: So, I mean, I don't see any

9 issues there. I was wondering -- I was going to

10 look at my caucus here, do we want to discuss some

11 of the issues that we have --

12 MR. BROOKMAN: In a little bit we're

13 going to take a break, and there will be an

14 opportunity for you to discuss it.

15 MR. CASE: Okay.

16 MR. BROOKMAN: Charlie.

17 But what I'm hearing is that based on

18 this chart here, that you can understand the tie

19 between MEI and PER with perhaps some rather

20 simple default values here. Right?

21 Charlie.

22 MR. CAPPELLINO: Well, that was my
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1 question essentially because I was trying to

2 understand what Louis was saying, and I just

3 wanted to say it and have somebody confirm.

4 So, again, the MEI piece we all

5 understand, we can set that level. And if I offer

6 a pump to a certain MEI level and it passes, if I

7 offer that pump with a motor of a given and known

8 efficiency, there's a simple multiplying factor or

9 simple factor that could be used, and then if I

10 use a drive, there's a simple factor that I can

11 use, so that it's really a fairly simple approach

12 once you've gotten the MEI straightened out? I

13 mean, is that a feasible scenario?

14 MR. BROOKMAN: This is Sarah.

15 MS. WIDDER: Yes. Yes. That's

16 completely correct. If you -- so we'll just talk

17 --

18 MR. CASE: So is everything that you

19 showed us really just background in terms of how

20 you calculate --

21 MS. WIDDER: Yes. It's really just the

22 nitty-gritty details.
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1 MR. CASE: And you do that -- you've

2 done that one time as kind of reference material?

3 You don't have to do that for each of your pumps

4 that you're trying to qualify or sell into the

5 marketplace?

6 MS. WIDDER: So I'll talk through real

7 quick, and then I think we have another comment.

8 So you would rate a given pump. So

9 there are multiple models of pump, but a given

10 pump you would rate and you would determine the

11 efficiency at multiple points or the power at --

12 you would get your

13 MEI.

14 MR. CASE: Which we do today, which we

15 do today.

16 MS. WIDDER: Your MEI, you do that

17 today.

18 MR. CASE: Right.

19 MS. WIDDER: It's just fine. To sell

20 that pump, you would have your factors that could

21 be more or less complicated, but you just plug it

22 into an equation and get a number, and provided
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1 it's better than the standard, that's fine. If

2 you were to sell that pump with a more efficient

3 motor, the only thing -- and the way we've

4 presented it here is it's a big long equation, but

5 you would just change one variable. So you could

6 set it up in a spreadsheet and instead of 93.6

7 percent efficient for the motor, which is the

8 minimum efficiency motor, you would plug in 95 if

9 you had a 95 percent efficient motor, you just --

10 MR. CAPPELLINO: At full load.

11 MS. WIDDER: At full load. And you just

12 plug in the full load efficiency of the motor if

13 you were going to sell it with a better motor and

14 then get a different number that was better than

15 the first case. And if you were going to sell

16 that same pump with controls, now you would take

17 that number that you had with the bare pump and

18 whatever motor it's paired with and apply in this

19 case some factor, .78, that would give you a

20 reduced -- a better value representative of the

21 better performance you get with controls. So

22 after you rated your pump, all you do is some
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1 calculations. And I'm working on a spreadsheet

2 that I'm going to try and be able to send out to

3 this group that you can just plug in pump

4 performance and it will calculate all the rest,

5 and so you'll be able to see how that works, and

6 that would work for certification, too.

7 MR. CAPPELLINO: Okay. That's helping.

8 MS. WIDDER: Okay.

9 MR. BROOKMAN: Steve Rosenstock.

10 I'm coming back to you, Rob.

11 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Sure. Steve

12 Rosenstock, EEI. One other kind of big picture

13 issue is -- I haven't really looked -- I'm

14 wondering, what percentage of pumps out there --

15 because, remember this commercial, industrial,

16 agricultural wastewater type of pumps -- what

17 percentage of pumps are constant flow basically,

18 there is no variability, it's either 1,000 gallons

19 per minute or they're off?

20 I'm just kind of curious about that just

21 because of the fact that if they're sized to be at

22 specific, let's say, 90 percent of motor load,
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1 controls aren't really going to save you that

2 much, and the PERs aren't -- you know, you've

3 shown in your thing that you can actually have a

4 higher PER because with higher constant loads, and

5 I'm just thinking of certain processes or --

6 especially for pumping, that there could be a

7 significant percentage that are constant load. So

8 that spills over into possible test procedures as

9 well.

10 MR. BROOKMAN: Let's hear from Mark.

11 MR. HANDZEL: Yeah. Mark Handzel from

12 Xylem. Steve, you're exactly right, I mean, and

13 we've tried to talk about that all along, that

14 there are applications out there that are constant

15 load that would see no benefit from including a

16 drive, you know. And how many of them are out

17 there? Again, this is the thing, we sell the

18 pump, we don't necessarily always know how it's

19 applied, how it's used, how it's controlled.

20 So that's one of the things we'll have

21 to talk about, is that the PER really would have

22 to be related to variable load applications
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1 because we would have owners unhappy with us if we

2 said you've got to put a drive on it, but it

3 doesn't save them anything.

4 MR. BROOKMAN: Steve.

5 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Steve Rosenstock, EEI.

6 Thank you. Just for my benefit and hopefully for

7 others, that would also help my decision making as

8 well in terms of metrics/test procedures.

9 MR. BROOKMAN: Meg, are you in the same

10 stream?

11 MS. WALTNER: Let Alison.

12 MR. BROOKMAN: Alison. Go ahead,

13 Alison.

14 MS. WILLIAMS: So I just wanted to

15 follow up on that a little bit. When we do our

16 analysis, I mean, we might not get precise data,

17 but we will do an energy use analysis as part of

18 an LCC, and some people will have constant loads

19 and some people will have variable loads, and so

20 you will be able to see that some percentage of

21 the population may or may not benefit from this

22 because of what their load are, and so that will
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1 be taken into account in the analysis.

2 MR. BROOKMAN: Go ahead, Steve.

3 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Thank you, Alison.

4 Steve Rosenstock, EEI. I thank you very much,

5 Alison. I think the reason I'm asking that is if

6 we're being asked to make a decision today, we

7 don't have that data, so that's why I'm a little

8 concerned.

9 MR. BROOKMAN: We're not going to make a

10 decision today.

11 MS. WILLIAMS: So we need -- okay, as

12 Sarah said, we need basically agreement on a

13 general construct of a metric that we can plug

14 into the analysis and show the results. And so it

15 could be that, you know, at some -- I mean, but

16 what we're also proposing to do is not -- none of

17 these levels would require controls; right? So

18 like the analysis isn't actually -- unless we had

19 a design option that was controls, the analysis

20 isn't going to show that some are burdened because

21 all those levels are hydraulic efficiency levels.

22 And so if the group decides then for
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1 some reason that they wanted to include a level of

2 mandating controls, then the analysis would be

3 able to differentiate, but, you know, that so far

4 hasn't been on the table.

5 MR. BROOKMAN: In a minute, Alison, I'm

6 going to ask you or Sarah to describe what the

7 pieces of a general construct of a metric that you

8 would like to obtain agreement on today, what they

9 would be, and I think I know what they are.

10 Mark, do you want to follow on? And

11 then I'm going to Meg.

12 Meg, you're next.

13 MS. WALTNER: So I just have a follow-on

14 on that. One standard we haven't covered that I

15 understood from our earlier discussions is that

16 sometimes you might have a constant load

17 application but an oversized pump and that that's

18 pretty common, and in that case, a variable speed,

19 even though you're operating at a constant load,

20 would provide benefit. Is that a common scenario

21 also?

22 MR. BROOKMAN: Mark Handzel.
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1 MR. HANDZEL: Mark Handzel from Xylem.

2 It's a possible scenario absolutely because

3 obviously we've talked before about when engineers

4 design systems, they put in a safety factor, and

5 so you could trim the impeller and get to where

6 they actually need to be once it's installed, or

7 you could put a drive in and it could be the

8 adjuster, too. So that is one other scenario, and

9 it does happen.

10 MR. BROOKMAN: Louis.

11 MR. STARR: This is Louis Starr with

12 NEEA. Would it be possible to regulate on PER but

13 also report MEI on the label so if you are maybe

14 in a constant volume application or something such

15 that you're really wanting to know that as a

16 decision basis, but to meet regulations, you're

17 still doing the PER? Is that a possibility?

18 MR. BROOKMAN: An interesting idea.

19 Something to consider. Okay.

20 Yes.

21 MS. KOHL: This is Betsy Kohl, DOE OGC.

22 I might as well answer that. If you look at --
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1 there are labeling requirement provisions in the

2 statute, and that would be something that we could

3 require. It wouldn't be a separate thing you

4 would have to meet, but it would be something that

5 we could have be disclosed on a label.

6 MR. BROOKMAN: Lucas Adin.

7 MR. ADIN: And actually to get to a

8 question from a little while back that I think was

9 yours, Louis, there was a question about how this

10 could be put into terms that might be more useful

11 prospectively to utilities or something like that,

12 energy use based on hours or something like that,

13 annual operating costs. I mean, we can write

14 specific standardized formulas for those things;

15 we do it for plenty of other products. So

16 regardless of whether we use PER or some other

17 metric for assessing compliance with a standard,

18 you could still have an annual energy use value

19 that's based on a prescribed standardized number

20 of operating hours.

21 MR. BROOKMAN: Louis.

22 MR. STARR: So there are a couple of
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1 things. One, where actually separately there is a

2 motor-driven label thing that we're working on

3 that's kind of mainly to inform utility programs,

4 and so the idea of a label. It would be nice if

5 it was tied into when you actually set the

6 standard for a pump in this case, and then that --

7 you know, the information that's feeding in. So

8 that's something we're working on, and it's

9 different from this.

10 But I guess the other aspect of these

11 things is that I think having multiple pieces of

12 information on there is helpful.

13 So the other thing I kind of am a little

14 bit concerned about in this metric of the

15 controls, motor, and pump, I haven't checked

16 mathematically yet, but I was just thinking if I'm

17 a guy out there and I decide I've got a pump that

18 doesn't -- really not that great, but I can get a

19 better PER version by saying that maybe I have a

20 control system that's just a control valve on the

21 outlet of it and it will give me a little better

22 performance than a constant volume, I'm wondering
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1 if there are some ways to game it so if you

2 actually have an MEI that's not so great but

3 you're able to put some other things in there that

4 don't cost as much but don't really get the

5 performance you need and give you a better PER,

6 but really it's just sort of gaming the system.

7 And that was my only concern. I haven't actually

8 worked through to see what those possibilities

9 are, but it sounds like something you've probably

10 thought about; right?

11 MS. WIDDER: We've been thinking about

12 it, and I think those types of loopholes or issues

13 are something that we can definitely continue to

14 discuss. I think they'll exist for whatever metric

15 we come up with. And so I think back to Doug's

16 point, if we can come up with a general framework

17 today to start with and then shoot holes in it and

18 try to fix those, yeah.

19 MR. STARR: That would be one advantage

20 of having an MEI on there, because then you

21 wouldn't have to back -- if there are loopholes

22 and you know a little bit, you'll know that the
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1 MEI is pretty important along with the PER, and

2 you know its application, it will help inform, I

3 think, the design community if there is more than

4 one piece of information on there when it gets to

5 be so complex.

6 MS. WIDDER: Right. So one thing I did

7 want to say -- well, two things I'm just going to

8 throw out there just as items for discussion, and

9 I thought about this a little bit, is for me MEI

10 wasn't super intuitive before I started thinking

11 about pumps a lot either, and so I recognize PER

12 may not be super intuitive for everyone, but if

13 we're talking about intuitive metrics and things

14 to include on a label, maybe like pump efficiency

15 at BEP, might be just easier for the layperson to

16 get at than MEI. So that was one thing, if we

17 want to talk about labels.

18 And then the other thing was there is

19 still -- so this gets back to Charlie's point

20 about, what's the purpose of this metric? And the

21 purpose of this metric is to be able to

22 differentiate the performance of pumps especially
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1 with controls, so better designed systems, not

2 just better designed pumps. It's not going to

3 limit the amount of information that pump

4 manufacturers are going to continue to give

5 designers. I mean, they're not going to be happy

6 with an MEI and a PER or whatever, you know,

7 they're going to want a lot more information about

8 how their specific trimmed pump is performing at

9 different flow and head points, and that's still

10 all going to be available and all going to happen.

11 So those are just things to keep in mind.

12 MR. BROOKMAN: Chuck is next, and then

13 to Al.

14 MR. POWERS: As we were getting into

15 with Sarah, that was yesterday, about what we call

16 the bull's-eye, the bull's-eye fit, you know. If

17 a customer knows that it's better efficiency with

18 a trim but we need to qualify the pump now because

19 of these rulings because of max diameter, you

20 know, we have to look at that -- right? -- and

21 understand it.

22 Next is there was a study done in New
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1 York, in New York State, because back in your

2 charts there, you did a nice job trying to show

3 system head and all that. My view is -- and again

4 this is just an observation -- what you're trying

5 to do there is good, the whole concept about the

6 pump drive and everything is no problem, but we

7 have to understand these systems better because

8 the study they did corresponded with you where you

9 showed a 2-speed was actually more efficient than

10 a VFD, and the reason they came up with the same

11 conclusion was the fact that the constant speed

12 was -- actually, the 2-speed was best, the

13 constant speed was next, and then the VFD drive

14 was worst case.

15 Now, for his system, though, because he

16 goes from a static up to a high end, they'll put

17 it on a low speed at night just to bring the

18 system up, get their heads up, get their flows up,

19 and then during the day it draws down, but when he

20 has an overload because too many people take a

21 shower, let's say, they can turn on the high speed

22 and boost that system up. So in his version, the
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1 2-speed was actually the best. The VFD actually --

2 they had some VFDs, it didn't help them; right?

3 It actually made it worse -- right? -- as far as

4 their overall efficiency.

5 But the system curves, understanding a

6 customer's applications is critical because if you

7 -- my perception, and I would like to ask Doug a

8 little bit, because he has a lot of pumps in the

9 field -- if it's 100 percent capacity, chances of

10 it wanting to be a VFD is probably better because

11 you're very limited with one pump. How can you

12 regulate the system, these system head curves? If

13 it's a multi-pump system curve where they have

14 multi-pumps, they can shut two or three down, it

15 drops down to the head they need, versus even two.

16 You don't need a VFD because you can regulate what

17 you need.

18 So I guess the point I'm trying to make

19 is if greater than -- and I would speculate -- 50

20 percent of the pumps these guys ship for the Lot

21 11 -- which I think we need to come up with a new

22 name, but that grouping we talked about yesterday,
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1 is bare pumps -- we have no say in where they go

2 and how they get applied. Right? You know what I

3 mean? I'm not trying to say this value and how

4 we're going about it is not right, I think it's

5 great. Right? But we have very little say on the

6 applications and telling a customer, "Oh, you need

7 to have a VFD." We don't even know the kind of

8 system he's going to put it on, so how can we

9 regulate it?

10 Now, publishing it, giving him data in

11 the instruction manuals, "By the way, if you have

12 a VFD, you can do this," you know, we could add

13 those things to our documentation to help

14 customers, but I need to speak up with Charlie, we

15 have no way to regulate how we can tell them, "By

16 the way, you can get better efficiency with 2-

17 speed, you can get better efficiency with VFDs,"

18 and that. You know what I mean?

19 MR. BROOKMAN: Lucas.

20 MR. ADIN: Well, just to clarify there.

21 And I don't know if it's me that's thinking about

22 this the wrong way or not, but we're not trying to
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1 design this in a way that would force the pump

2 manufacturers to require the use of a VFD for a

3 particular application. It's really -- the way

4 this is supposed to work is that the variable in

5 terms of what would be evaluated for the purposes

6 of setting the standard is the bare pump itself.

7 Right? And so, yeah, I mean, a better motor or a

8 VFD in theory could be the means that you use to

9 achieve that standard, but it's really not the

10 intent to force a whole portion of the market to

11 have to require use of a VFD just to be able to

12 use that pump. I mean, if that's the situation

13 we're in, then maybe that's a critical factor in

14 deciding whether that standard makes sense.

15 MR. BROOKMAN: Al Huber, and then I'm

16 going over here to Doug.

17 MR. HUBER: Go ahead and let Doug.

18 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Doug, go ahead.

19 MR. POTTS: One concern I have, as a

20 pump user -- and I would be curious for the

21 group's feedback as to whether that's a valid

22 concern or not -- is I don't want to be limited in
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1 choice in terms of what I can buy, so I don't want

2 to be in a situation where I have to buy a pump

3 with a VFD. And I know the regulation is not

4 requiring that, but I wonder if there would be a

5 scenario in which a pump manufacturer may say,

6 "You know what, the investment cost to upgrade our

7 pump efficiency is so great that let's not try to

8 meet the pump efficiency, let's just sell our

9 pumps with VFDs only, and then we'll meet the

10 criteria that way," and then that takes away

11 choice from us.

12 We typically do not buy pumps and VFDs

13 together because they're engineered systems, and a

14 typical pump station will have -- well, say a

15 treatment plant, for example. The high-service

16 pumps, the high-service pump station would usually

17 have a minimum of three, usually three to five

18 high-service pumps. We would never have VFDs on

19 all those pumps. We would have VFDs on maybe a

20 maximum of two of those pumps. And we like to

21 have control over the VFD manufacturers. Certain

22 VFDs, we want the same ones that we use everywhere
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1 in that system because we like our rep or because

2 we like that technology, things like that.

3 So I want to make sure that we don't

4 have the regulation that the industry is just

5 going to say, "Well, let's just sell everything

6 with VFDs now," and then that takes away choice

7 from us.

8 MR. BROOKMAN: Lucas.

9 MR. ADIN: So, Doug, I think your

10 comment gets exactly to the point I made

11 previously, which is that if when we analyze these

12 different potential standard levels, we look at

13 one in particular and the pump manufacturers say,

14 well, the only way that we can comply with that is

15 to do what you just said, is to use a VFD,

16 effectively what that means is that you're

17 eliminating a product from the market to some

18 potentially significant extent, and that's a

19 factor that's used in determining whether that

20 particular standard level makes sense, whether

21 it's economically feasible, and so that is a

22 factor that has to be considered, and that's
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1 something we need to know when we look at each of

2 these. The pump guys say, "Well, we just couldn't

3 supply that pump to the market anymore without a

4 VFD," then that's a critical deciding point. And

5 we wouldn't want to eliminate a product from the

6 market.

7 MR. BROOKMAN: Let me note in a little

8 bit we're going to take a break.

9 Al Huber.

10 MR. HUBER: I have basically two things.

11 One thing, I think to allay your fears, Doug, the

12 cost of VFDs are so high, I don't think anybody is

13 going to try to justify their pump with a VFD to

14 make up that difference. Okay? I think that's

15 number one. Or the motor either. Because there

16 is a fairly sizeable delta between the EPACT and

17 premium efficiency, a minimum of 10 to 15 percent.

18 And in the marketplace today, you're not going to

19 survive being 10 to 15 percent high, it's just not

20 going to happen. So I don't really think that's

21 an issue.

22 But one of the things that I would like
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1 to do and I think our caucus would like to do,

2 before we break, we would like for you to tell us

3 what it is you want from us, or what is it you

4 want from this group, before we break, exactly for

5 you to be able to do what you want to do? And

6 then we'll go away and see what questions we have

7 about those.

8 MS. WIDDER: Okay. So I think that was

9 for us.

10 MR. BROOKMAN: Yes, I think that is for

11 you.

12 Let's hear from Steve. He's been

13 patient. I think I know about half of them, but

14 keep going, Steve.

15 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Steve Rosenstock, EEI.

16 To follow up with what Mr. Powers was saying, the

17 way the standards are, each pump is sold

18 individually. The application gets into the

19 analysis, the energy use analysis, and the life20 cycle cost savings, but in terms of the actual

21 standard, each pump, or pump and motor, pump and

22 motor control, is sold as an individual unit even
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1 if it's being used with nine other pumps for an

2 application, it doesn't matter. The standard is

3 just for that pump period, just for that pump and

4 motor, just for that pump and motor control, as if

5 it was just purely a standalone unit.

6 MS. WIDDER: Yeah.

7 MR. ROSENSTOCK: That's the way all the

8 other standards are set.

9 MR. POWERS: And, Steve, I agree with

10 you. I guess the point I'm trying to make, I think

11 Sarah is trying to do a good job of saying it

12 isn't just about a pump. How does the system

13 curve look and what impacts can that have and what

14 variables? And if we do apply the 25 percent, how

15 good would that be? I see what she's trying --

16 the variables, and then she even played with the

17 affinity laws a little bit, and that's all good

18 stuff, but there are also pumps, like I was trying

19 to say, the bull's-eye fit, and if we go max

20 wheel, believe me, that stuff last night, I put it

21 to a team of 10 engineers and they were

22 calculating till midnight going through all the
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1 different variations, and I hate to say it, there

2 were a series of great pumps that looks like

3 they're going to get eliminated because of their

4 bull's-eye fit further down in the mid-trim, and

5 that's -- it is what it is, so, so be it, you

6 know. And that's okay.

7 You know, we're trying to understand

8 your stuff so we have a better understanding of

9 the impact. I guess if it impacts us, we're not --

10 you know, since Darwin wrote the rules, everybody,

11 you know -- if there's a bull's-eye fit, if

12 there's a bull's-eye fit for us, there's a bull's13 eye fit pump for Charlie, and probably for Al,

14 it's going to affect all of us, but there is a

15 percentage of those that could be impacted. You

16 know what I mean.

17 MS. WIDDER: Yeah.

18 MR. POWERS: We're just trying to

19 understand the impact.

20 MS. WIDDER: Right.

21 MR. ADIN: I just want to see if I can

22 bring a little clarity to the issue at hand here.
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1 I think it's getting to the question that Al asked

2 previously, but what is it that we need to have

3 answered today so we can do what we need to do?

4 And I think part of the issue is that some of the

5 potential impacts on the market that we've been

6 talking about are related to the standard, the

7 ultimate standard, level that we set. So the

8 standard level that is set will have some impact

9 on the market, and from what we've heard, the

10 metric itself might have some impact on the market

11 as far as the choices that are made by consumers.

12 I think what we need to do to be able to

13 move forward, since we haven't talked about what

14 standard level we might set, we can't speculate

15 about the impact on the market in specific terms

16 on that. We need to know, what does the metric

17 alone have the potential to do? Like what are the

18 concerns on that? So that we can pick one and then

19 start doing real analysis and start looking at

20 some standard levels and talk in more real terms

21 about economic impacts and all that.

22 MR. BROOKMAN: And Sarah, I just
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1 consulted with her briefly, she thought that she

2 would be able to identify what Alison described,

3 and I'm sure Alison knows also, the general

4 construct of a metric, what those elements would

5 be.

6 MS. WIDDER: Right. So it's back to --

7 MR. BROOKMAN: So this is to answer your

8 question, Al.

9 MS. WIDDER: Mm-hmm. So --

10 MR. HUBER: What I need is a list of

11 things you need to know today.

12 MR. BROOKMAN: Yeah.

13 MS. WIDDER: Okay. So here is --

14 MR. HUBER: And I'm going to write them

15 down and then we're going to go caucus.

16 MS. WIDDER: Right. So here is our

17 list, and I'll start with none of this needs to be

18 set in stone, we don't need to vote on this, we

19 just need to determine that we're all okay moving

20 forward with this general assumption right now.

21 We can always change it. But in general what we

22 want to decide is --
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1 MR. BROOKMAN: It's slide Number 6.

2 MS. WIDDER: Yep, Slide Number 6. Here

3 we are. I changed it a little bit, I made a

4 denominator. But are we generally okay with this

5 general construct of a metric, so power, or we

6 could -- instead of the P is on top, it could be

7 instead pump efficiency and pump hydraulic power,

8 but some representation of pump performance at

9 four load points. And then are we okay to account

10 for motor losses? Are you guys okay with that,

11 the general way we approach that for now? The

12 load control factor as a way for accounting --

13 Oh, Alison.

14 MS. WILLIAMS: So, I just -- we don't

15 actually need to determine how to account for

16 motor losses and control losses today, not

17 necessary.

18 MS. WIDDER: Okay, you want to -- let's

19 do -- okay, let's do these things, three, these.

20 So let's do these three.

21 MS. WILLIAMS: If you can, fantastic.

22 MS. WIDDER: How about this?
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1 MS. WILLIAMS: We can prioritize things.

2 MS. WIDDER: How about this? That's

3 what we need? Okay. So forget the motor and

4 controls thing, we'll just stick with pump

5 performance, and we actually don't even need the

6 denominator, we can delete that.

7 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Fix the whole thing.

8 MS. WIDDER: Yep, I'm going to fix it.

9 So all we need is the load points --

10

11 MR. HUBER: Load points?

12 MS. WIDDER: Yep. That's -- the load

13 points is, you know -- there we go.

14 UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: We got it.

15 We got it.

16 MS. WIDDER: Yep, load points and

17 weighting. And is this general construct okay?

18 I'm going to delete the --

19 MR. BROOKMAN: And there are some other

20 things so that that -- oh, actually we don't need

21 those now either.

22 MS. WIDDER: No. At a bare minimum,
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1 this is what we want.

2 MS. WILLIAMS: Yeah, and so --

3 MR. HUBER: That's what you want from

4 us.

5 MS. WIDDER: That's it today.

6 MS. WILLIAMS: So this is -- I just want

7 to clarify that; right? So we can -- Dan and I

8 can do analysis with this information. We will

9 make some assumptions about how to size the motor

10 and stuff like that, but it shouldn't affect like

11 basically the ranking of results and that type of

12 thing. So eventually we need to agree on more

13 details, but these are the major things that will

14 allow our analysis to essentially be relatively

15 correct and then we can make adjustments to the

16 metric later. So --

17 MR. BROOKMAN: So that was Alison there.

18 MS. WILLIAMS: So we will -- Dan and I

19 will have to make assumptions about the motor,

20 like motor sizing and stuff to do the analysis,

21 but it will be the same for everything, and so it

22 shouldn't be like a -- it shouldn't really impact
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1 the analysis basically.

2 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. So let's take a

3 break. It's now 5 minutes after 10:00. Al, I'm

4 guessing that this might take you more than -- no?

5 Okay. Then 15 minutes.

6 MR. HUBER: I thought it was going to be

7 a long list.

8 MR. BROOKMAN: 10:20. We'll resume at

9 10:20.

10 (Break.)

11 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Let's resume.

12 When we went to break, the manufacturers caucus

13 was going to caucus.

14 Al Huber.

15 MR. HUBER: It took a little longer than

16 I suspected, but --

17 MR. BROOKMAN: That's okay.

18 MR. HUBER: What the pump manufacturers

19 would like to see, quite frankly, is a two-tiered

20 approach, or two -- however you want to do it with

21 two different regulations or -- I mean, two

22 different measurements --
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1 UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: Standards.

2 MR. HUBER: -- standards or a standard

3 and a label, but we would really like to see us

4 stay with an MEI, or a Minimum Efficiency Index,

5 or whatever you want to call it at 75, 100, and

6 110. That's what we really believe is the right

7 way to go.

8 We also, if we want another index, we

9 think it should be EEI and probably shouldn't be

10 anything that's been proposed so far and probably

11 should be 25, 50, 75, and 100, and that would take

12 into consideration the system. And we think that

13 is the best way to do that.

14 Now, I heard -- and she's not in here

15 unfortunately -- but I heard Betsy say once you

16 couldn't do that, then 15 minutes later I heard

17 her say you could. So there seems to be a lot of

18 confusion on what we can and cannot do as regards

19 to how many different metrics we can have or

20 measurements or indexes or however you want to put

21 it.

22 So that's what the manufacturers believe
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1 is the best way to go. Now, that does align with

2 Europe, and one reason we're doing that is many of

3 us produce pumps, the same pumps, in Europe, and

4 it would certainly be easier on us, and we think

5 it will accomplish what we're trying to accomplish

6 here, and that is give a metric for the pump only,

7 bare pump only, and a metric for the pump, motor,

8 and control. And that's what we think, and that's

9 the way we feel about it. So we're open to

10 discussion, so --

11 MR. BROOKMAN: Did you all come to a

12 point of agreement on weighting, equal weighting,

13 versus --

14 MR. HUBER: If you're talking about an

15 MEI, we think it ought to be a third, a third, and

16 a third. If it's 75, 100, and 110, which is the

17 same thing the Europeans are doing basically in

18 another fashion by saying if you don't meet one of

19 the points, your pump is out. So if you weight

20 them all a third, a third, a third, it's the same

21 thing, the result is the same.

22 MR. BROOKMAN: That's equal weighting.
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1 MR. HUBER: That's equal weighting,

2 yeah. You know, on the VFD, I don't think we're

3 really -- I think equal weighting on the VFD is

4 fine, too, because you don't know what the system

5 is till you get there anyway. The truth of the

6 matter is even if you did research on like let's

7 say an HVAC system and you decide it runs this

8 percentage this, but if you get out in the field,

9 you're going to find something different.

10 So you might as well just make it all

11 even and then everybody is judged the same anyway,

12 so it doesn't really matter. It doesn't help you

13 when you're trying to decide your savings, that's

14 for sure. I mean, I understand that, but since

15 there are so many different types of systems out

16 there, and even the ones that are the same type of

17 system may not have the same weighting or the

18 system may not operate the same, in quite the same

19 way, it may be off, trying to go out here and

20 identify those is extremely difficult if not

21 impossible.

22 So that's why we think equal weighting
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1 is probably the best way to go. So we're all for

2 equal weighting.

3 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Alison, do you

4 have questions or comments or --

5 MS. WILLIAMS: I will probably let DOE

6 do most of the talking, but can we talk a little

7 bit about sort of what has changed from last

8 meeting when it seemed like maybe you guys were

9 sort of understanding and being on board with this

10 and -- I mean, I know we've heard this before, but

11 it seemed like from talking to Greg and stuff that

12 this was (laughing) -- and even most of you guys

13 at the last meeting seemed sort of more or less

14 okay and didn't have that many questions. So I'm

15 just wondering like what has changed, and I don't

16 know.

17 MR. HUBER: I think the complexity of

18 what you're doing here is one thing. The other

19 thing is our people have had time to think about

20 it. And for one thing, I mean, if we decide to do

21 this, we've all got to carry this all back to our

22 engineering departments and say, "You've got to do
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1 an analysis on this to see what this is going to

2 do to us or not do to us and what's going to

3 happen." I mean, we weren't going to accept it

4 anyway today, so --

5 MS. WILLIAMS: Oh, yeah, understood, and

6 --

7 MR. HUBER: But we really don't

8 understand why that you're being insistent that we

9 do it this way rather than the way that it's

10 already out there.

11 MR. BROOKMAN: Greg Towsley.

12 MR. TOWSLEY: Greg Towsley, Grundfos. I

13 think more simply is that we heard this morning

14 that there is a possibility of having two metrics

15 that --

16 MS. WILLIAMS: Oh, good, Betsy is here.

17 (Laughter.)

18 MS. KOHL: Sorry.

19 MR. BROOKMAN: Let's -- let's --

20 MR. POWERS: But if I may -- Alison, if

21 I may before Betsy speaks, I think, you know, you

22 say we had some agreement last meeting. We're
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1 still trying to understand the file documents.

2 This is evolving; right? So it was like last time

3 you kind of get a nudge, you look, you know,

4 whatever.

5 MR. BROOKMAN: Is your microphone on?

6 MR. POWERS: Yes. Yes, it is.

7 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Thank you.

8 MR. POWERS: This is Chuck Powers. You

9 know, so it's a moving target; right? I mean,

10 last time someone could say we had these pumps

11 involved, we didn't have these other pumps

12 involved, and yesterday we voted what the final

13 was. So, I mean, it's evolving. And this is now

14 getting a lot more detailed and you guys are doing

15 a really good job of defining it and qualifying,

16 getting calculations, but even there, there are a

17 lot of changes right on the screen, you know,

18 today with variations. Right? So --

19 MS. WILLIAMS: Yeah. I mean, I

20 think, you know, we understand that it's an

21 evolving process, and that's why I wanted to ask

22 what has kind of changed, but I think if Betsy can
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1 speak to the dual metric again, that would be

2 good. (Laughing.)

3 MS. KOHL: What's the question? I mean,

4 we've trod this ground, but --

5 MR. HUBER: Al Huber. We would like to

6 see -- and what we explained to the group before

7 you got back in, Betsy, is that we would like to

8 see a metric on the bare pump, an MEI, 75, 100,

9 110, and a metric on the system or a rating on the

10 system as a separate rating. First of all, we

11 think it makes more sense. I mean, we would like

12 to see -- you certainly would judge the VFD better

13 if you had 25, 50, 75, 100 than what you're trying

14 to do up here because you're trying to combine

15 them. And we thought we heard from you that that

16 was a possibility, that we could have two separate

17 ratings or not -- or however you want to call it,

18 or a rating and a label, or however you would have

19 to construct it, but we honestly believe that's

20 the best route to go.

21 MS. KOHL: So -- this is Betsy Kohl --

22 the label is a different issue. The label -- we
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1 have a standard that we would develop in this

2 group. The label can -- and the statutory cite is

3 42 U.S.C. 6315 -- contain other useful measures of

4 energy consumption, annual energy cost. Right?

5 So MEI could be one of those. But it would just

6 be information that you put out, it wouldn't be a

7 separate standard that you would have to meet.

8 So, I mean, and the way we understood that -- for

9 the bare pump class, you would have your MEI, but

10 your ultimate standard would be an EEI as it would

11 be for all of your -- whether you have a motor or

12 a motor and controls, you would just have some

13 standard value for the motor and control

14 efficiency, so it would all be EEI. That's why we

15 kind of understood that there wouldn't be an

16 issue. I mean, I don't know why there would

17 necessarily be a problem with that because you

18 know what the MEI is.

19 MR. BROOKMAN: Greg Case.

20 MR. CASE: I guess our issue was when we

21 started to look at the MEI portion of this, having

22 the values different than the values that we had
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1 in other standards that we're trying to comply to

2 and not having any weight on where we want the

3 pump to actually operate, which is the best -- or

4 the preferred operating range, which is 75 to

5 about 110 --

6 MR. HANDZEL: We want to encourage

7 operating there.

8 MR. CASE: -- we want to encourage to

9 operate in there. If we're using what we were

10 talking about earlier -- and we talked about

11 possibly being able to do this with weighting

12 factors and things like that also, but trying to

13 encourage someone to run the pump and give them

14 more weight for their efficiencies at the best

15 efficiencies point was kind of our focus there.

16 So the MEI makes you meet all three points, it

17 makes sure that you have a broad efficiency range

18 on your pump curve, and it kind of -- it makes

19 sure that the pump is best at its BEP point.

20 The EEI, as constructed in the European

21 documents, is the extended product operating

22 savings, and we certainly don't want to lose that
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1 portion of this. We think that's where you're

2 actually going to save your energy. As we saw

3 yesterday, the values were fairly small for pump

4 savings alone. And as Sarah had shown us earlier,

5 if you take that 25 percent out, that really

6 changes the amount of the PER value, the 25

7 percent weighting point did a -- or the 25 percent

8 operating point had a large effect on how we would

9 differentiate a PER or how much that changes with

10 a VFD versus a constant speed pump.

11 So I don't know if I just confused the

12 issue or I made it any better, but the MEI

13 focusing just on the pump and giving us a clear

14 value to shoot for just on the pump, and we can

15 say that's part of this PER up there, but most of

16 our problem, I believe, was just on the weighting

17 of these PER values.

18 MR. POWERS: This is Chuck, with

19 Flowserve, too, to help, if I can. When you go,

20 let's say, to the left of 75 percent, Betsy, guys

21 like Doug and his companies, when they specify

22 things, yes, they specify efficiencies and they
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1 specify operating ranges, and most of them, most

2 of the time that I see -- and there are others --

3 you'll see 70 to 110, you'll see some push 120,

4 some will push 50, that they operate, but most of

5 the manufacturers, consultants, and all have a

6 preferred operating range right now.

7 When you go to the left of that, there

8 are things that can be done, but there are other

9 factors that start to evolve. For example, we

10 have this thing called NPSH, okay, the suction

11 side of the pump, so to speak, and there is what

12 they call the 3 percent break-off, which really

13 what happens is in order to make head out of the

14 pump, it gets to a point where the suction -- and

15 I'm using simple terms -- you start to drop off in

16 head because you're having losses on the suction

17 side, and what ends up happening is most people

18 think the NPSH curve just goes from BEP to the

19 right. Well, actually, in an impeller rate, it

20 can go all the way back to shutoff, so to speak,

21 but when you get back further on the curve, it can

22 get pretty radical and come up quite quickly to
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1 where you actually will run out of NPSH for the

2 pump, and it could be at the 50 percent point, at

3 the 60, it just depends on the type of hydraulic

4 and specific speed, these other factors we look at

5 when we design pumps; right?

6 So the European arena, when they looked

7 at that, they -- and I'm sitting in front because

8 every time we talk, I open up that page and I try

9 to understand how they were divesting and stuff,

10 and I think that's where Greg is coming from,

11 we're trying to say we want customers, through the

12 engineering consultants, to look at products where

13 they should operate, which is what we're all

14 trying to do, because they're operating them

15 poorly -- right? -- and the systems they get into

16 and all that kind of stuff.

17 So the first idea is say, "Look, try to

18 operate your pump in this preferred range."

19 Anything you attach to it, try to make sure it's

20 comfortable with that range, whether it's a VFD, a

21 2-speed motor, and all the neat stuff that Sarah

22 said. And by the way, if you have a system curve,
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1 will that comply? In other words, we're going to

2 try to educate them and say, "Look, the sweeter

3 you get, the better things will be for everybody."

4 Right? So that's why I think what Al was trying

5 to say and all of us, you know, is to that point.

6 MR. BROOKMAN: Al Huber.

7 MR. HUBER: One of the concerns that our

8 group had when we were out discussing this is that

9 the way we have constructed this formula, we give

10 an equal weight to a 50 percent point where we do

11 not even design for with the BEP or 75 or 110, and

12 there was some real concern as, why would we give

13 weight to a point that is really out on the

14 extreme that we don't even recommend you operate

15 there? So that's really one of our concerns. And

16 I understand why -- I thought I understood before

17 today why we did that, I mean, why you did that,

18 because I thought you were being forced to, but if

19 you're not being forced to, we really think

20 splitting the two makes more sense because we're

21 going to talk about the VFD operating from 100 to

22 25, and that's where it's going to operate, and
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1 we're talking about just a constant speed pump

2 operating between 75 and 110 where it's going to -

3 - it should operate or someone should operate it.

4 So that was our thought on this, and if

5 we misled you last time, we apologize, but, you

6 know, this is evolving, and as we take a stronger

7 look at these things, we see the possible

8 pitfalls.

9 MR. BROOKMAN: I think Lucas Adin.

10 MR. ADIN: Well, I think conceptually

11 part of the struggle that we're having with this -

12 - and, I mean, I think we understand the position

13 that you're taking on this, from my point anyway,

14 my position, I think I understand. So some of

15 this is maybe about weighting points or weighting

16 factors or which load points we're looking at. We

17 can still discuss all of that, I mean, that's

18 still on the table; there are issues with those

19 and we can debate about them. But I think when it

20 comes to the broader issue of metric, the issue or

21 the concern that we have is -- and maybe it's a

22 question of our conceptual understanding of the
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1 market and applications, but there are enough

2 situations where there are choices being made

3 between a throttle -- a constant speed pump and a

4 throttled system and a variable speed pump, which

5 we've already defined as both being a pump under

6 the context of this rulemaking, and so it's

7 beneficial to have a common way to compare those

8 two things, and it sounds like this removes that

9 direct comparison ability. And so that really I

10 think is the most significant concern from our

11 standpoint, because at the end of the day, I mean,

12 we talk bare pump, pump plus motor, pump plus --

13 but, I mean, realistically it's pump plus motor

14 and pump plus motor plus some kind of variable

15 speed drive because these are all operated with a

16 motor, so --

17 MR. BROOKMAN: So Chuck Powers.

18 MR. POWERS: So just from my practical

19 sense, we've seen in 38 years most customers, if

20 they're going to use a VFD, they're going to have

21 a constant start point at BEP. They're going to

22 use a VFD and they're going to come down on the
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1 VFD speed curve, and it's not normally linear, it

2 comes down a little bit, but it doesn't go back to

3 25 percent; right? In other words, it works down.

4 It may come to 25 percent speed, but they want to

5 try to keep it as close to BEP as possible. It's

6 not scientifically practical because the linear

7 curve on a VFD versus the hydraulic, there will be

8 some separation with the lower speed you get;

9 right?

10 Number two, if I can do this right, if

11 you have 75, 100, and 110, and the designer sits

12 there and looks at that, which is what we're

13 trying to do here, that's efficiency for these

14 guys, that curve would look like this; right?

15 There's a peak up here at 100 percent. When you

16 add another point here and you equally load factor

17 that, really what the designer is going to do,

18 he's going to do this to the efficiency curve.

19 Right? It won't be as peaking, it's going to have

20 to -- because he's got to spread out and get a

21 change, it gets down to, is it 7 vane impeller?

22 the eye area, recirculation, a lot of factors. So
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1 when you're back there at 25 percent or 50 percent

2 load, you've got to keep the efficiency to

3 maintain the overall because we equally weighted

4 how we play it. So what's going to happen is

5 you're going to, to a certain degree, reduce the

6 efficiency at where you want it to be -- right? --

7 so to speak.

8 So you'll still maintain overall, and

9 some of the factors Sarah showed is good, you

10 balance it all and you have an overall, but you're

11 essentially going to lose efficiency at BEP a

12 little bit if you balance it. It's on certain

13 hydraulics; right?

14 And by the way, without getting into a

15 specific speed, you know, N suction versus

16 verticals, they all have their variabilities;

17 right?

18 MR. BROOKMAN: Lucas.

19 MR. ADIN: So just a quick clarifying

20 question for my benefit. Is that getting at the

21 point about having three separate rating points?

22 MR. POWERS: Yeah. The first one was
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1 what Sarah showed, which was loading. She calls

2 it the load points.

3 MR. ADIN: Right. Okay.

4 MR. BROOKMAN: What about Lucas'

5 question about comparability? I didn't think your

6 comments addressed that, Chuck.

7 I'll go to Charlie next.

8 MR. CAPPELLINO: So a question for DOE.

9 So would it be possible to have a scheme where you

10 regulate based on MEI that promotes efficiency of

11 the pumping equipment and then have a labeling

12 scheme that allows comparability across the

13 different units so that you have kind of a

14 combination of both so the labeling scheme

15 promotes the ability to compare and provides

16 information to the consumer, which will drive

17 energy savings, because you have a more educated

18 consumer, you can design incentive programs around

19 a labeling scheme and get energy savings out of a

20 labeling scheme and at the same time have a

21 regulated approach to MEI and drive pump

22 efficiency improvements and get savings from both
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1 and quantify both of those savings and get credit

2 for those in the calculation of energy savings?

3 MR. ADIN: So generally speaking, I

4 think it's possible to do it that way. I think

5 we're trying to consider what makes sense in both

6 dimensions, so it's both determining what complies

7 with a standard and what single metric

8 communicates the best information to the consumer.

9 And this is where we have arrived based upon both

10 those considerations.

11 MR. CAPPELLINO: The reason I bring it

12 up is because you could solve the problem of how

13 you look at the different flow points and the

14 different ratings and weightings because you could

15 have a different one for the MEI as you do for the

16 labeling scheme, so you could separate those two.

17 MR. ADIN: So I guess my question in

18 response to that is that the feeling is that that

19 would be less -- that would provide better

20 information to the consumer, like it would be less

21 confusing than doing it this way? Would it be

22 more representative?
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1 MR. CAPPELLINO: I think it has the

2 potential to do so. I guess I would like to have

3 more dialogue and discussion around it.

4 MS. WILLIAMS: Can I just ask a

5 question?

6 MR. BROOKMAN: Alison, please.

7 MS. WILLIAMS: Okay. So in the EU and

8 in previous DOE studies, they have determined that

9 they didn't think a label would be very effective

10 for pumps because what we're talking about is not

11 typically, you know, a commodity-driven, like off12 the-shelf product, and that therefore the benefit

13 of setting a standard instead of a label is that,

14 you know, it's at -- obviously for you guys it's a

15 burden, but we're getting savings without the

16 customer having to choose. And so I'm curious if

17 you guys have comment about why you think a label

18 would be effective when other people think it

19 wouldn't be.

20 MR. HUBER: Yeah. I think at this

21 point, we would like to caucus again for a few

22 moments.
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1 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay.

2 MR. HUBER: But before we do, we really

3 want to try to help you find a way to do this that

4 makes sense that our people can feel comfortable

5 with. There are a lot of things we've got to

6 consider. I know that she said before we left you

7 might show the BEP. Well, if the BEP is the

8 measurement and we already do that, and if it's

9 the measurement and it's the only measurement, and

10 it's what's shown, then you're going to have

11 people out here designing pumps that only do this,

12 and everywhere else you operate, it's a piece of

13 garbage, and you don't want that and we don't want

14 that, it's not good for anybody. And that's not -

15 - let me say this, when we design a pump, we're

16 designing it within that operating range, that 75

17 to 110. That's what we all design for. That's

18 why that's kind of -- and it's the same designers

19 as there are here, we all can do both, and we

20 communicate well together.

21

22 But that's the issue we have. We want
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1 to help you do this, honestly, and we want to keep

2 in -- and I want to say this, we want to keep what

3 we call extended product, which you're calling

4 PER. We need to keep this in here because that's

5 where the savings are, but we've got to find a way

6 to get there that makes sense, and I want to talk

7 to my caucus a little bit about trying to go back

8 and finding a way to help do this is it's

9 possible.

10 MR. BROOKMAN: Sarah has a few things to

11 say.

12 MS. WIDDER: And I think the thing that

13 I would suggest or just to consider regarding how

14 MEI and this construct of PER could fit together,

15 I'm revising this equation to have pump efficiency

16 in it so that that's more clear. Regarding the

17 load points, we could eliminate from PER this 50

18 percent load point. It could just be 75, 100, and

19 110 percent of BEP consistent with MEI, and they

20 could be equally weighted or something other than

21 that. So we did some calculations about that and

22 the negative thing about doing that is it doesn't
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1 represent the benefit of controls that well.

2 MR. HUBER: That's correct. We

3 understand.

4 MS. WIDDER: Right. And so I think

5 fundamentally the issue is back to the one Alison

6 raised, is if we capture the benefit of controls

7 in something other than the standard in some

8 label, is anybody going to do anything with it?

9 Is it really going to have an impact? Which is

10 why we wanted to try and capture it in the metric

11 that everybody is using. It's not two numbers,

12 it's one number, it's clearer, it's simpler. You

13 know, it will take a while for people to catch on

14 to what it means, but then there is only one, you

15 don't have to compare two things, and what if this

16 one has a higher MEI but a lower PER, what does

17 that mean? And we could less heavily weight the

18 50 percent point also, but similarly that will not

19 benefit controls, you won't get as much bang for

20 your buck from a control. So those are just some

21 things to consider in your caucus. It's not --

22 it's just things to think about.
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1 MR. BROOKMAN: Go ahead, Lucas.

2 And Gary is also in the queue.

3 MR. ADIN: So this is just sort of in

4 addition to Sarah's comment just now, but, I mean,

5 there are a few parts of this that are still

6 potentially up for discussion. I mean, what units

7 is it expressed in? I mean, horsepower? We've

8 heard that doesn't really make a whole lot of

9 sense to do it that way, and I completely

10 understand why there are concerns about that. Is

11 there a denominator? We can still talk about

12 those things. I think really what we're concerned

13 about is just basic structure and the use of a

14 common metric between the two types of

15 configurations.

16 MR. BROOKMAN: Let's let Gary go. He's

17 been patient.

18 MR. HUBER: All right. Go ahead.

19 MR. BROOKMAN: Gary.

20 MR. FERNSTROM: From the beginning,

21 talking to you folks, we agreed that there was a

22 lot of benefit associated with controls, and from
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1 the utility incentive point of view, we would like

2 to be able to recognize that. So it's important

3 that we come up with some metric that values it.

4 And I think it's also important that we consider

5 the 50 percent load point because it emphasizes

6 the value of controls.

7 MR. BROOKMAN: Joanna, follow on.

8 MS. MAUER: I just wanted to add that at

9 a high level I think we all want to -- we want

10 energy savings in the field, and so what I think

11 is important with the metric and the weighting is

12 that we try to capture how pumps are actually

13 operating in the field. We all prefer that pumps

14 operate close to BEP, but what we also know and

15 we've heard from you guys is that that rarely

16 happens, and pumps are often significantly

17 oversized. And I'm not sure I understand how only

18 having the rating capture 75, 100, and 110

19 encourages people to operate the pump there. So I

20 think what we want to do is capture where pumps

21 are operating even if they're not operating where

22 they should be operating.
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1 MR. BROOKMAN: Al Huber.

2 MR. HUBER: I think what we're trying to

3 explain to you is that -- and I think Chuck did a

4 good job of it -- and that is, if you put the 50

5 percent in there and somebody is redesigning,

6 they're going to do exactly what he said, and when

7 you do something to affect the suction side of a

8 pump, it always -- not always, but it generally

9 will lower efficiency at the peak. Let me finish.

10 When we do that, then the peak is going to go

11 down, and you're going to hurt the entire

12 industry, not just the pump industry, but you're

13 going to hurt all the users, and the way you're

14 going to do that is that with a VFD -- and he is

15 correct -- what you're trying to do with a --

16 you're trying to keep it at BEP with that VFD.

17 That's what you're trying to do. Now, if you've

18 arbitrarily lowered it, you're not going to be as

19 efficient as you could have been, and that's what

20 -- look, since we know about all of these things,

21 we're trying to express to you why if we're not

22 careful in the way we construct this, we may end
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1 up getting results we wish we hadn't gotten.

2 MR. BROOKMAN: Charlie, you're next.

3 MR. CAPPELLINO: A question for Sarah

4 and the group. If we eliminated the 50 percent of

5 BEP, the first term, is there a means by which you

6 could further down in the analysis where you do a

7 PER for a drive actually build in more credit for

8 a drive? I mean, I think you could fine-tune the

9 scheme so that when you do the PER for a bare

10 pump, you look at 75 percent, 100 percent, and 110

11 percent, so you address the question and the issue

12 that these guys raised, and then in the scheme for

13 the drive, you have some kind of a factor, and you

14 can figure out a way to come up with that factor

15 that gives you the credit that you would get if

16 you use the scheme with a 50 percent.

17 MS. WIDDER: Yes.

18 MR. ADIN: So, Charlie, to answer your

19 question, we were actually just conferring about I

20 think that same point, and our feeling is that you

21 could do that, and certainly if there were

22 compelling reasons to use different loading points
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1 for different configurations, that would be a

2 reason you should do it because it would be more

3 representative of the way that that particular

4 configuration would be expected to operate. And

5 so the way that in practice that would be done is

6 these loading points would be specified in the

7 test procedure, and you would say, all right, if

8 you're testing or you're rating this

9 configuration, these loading points are what you

10 use, and if it's this other one, you're using a

11 VFD or whatever, you have to use these loading

12 points, so you could do it that way, and certainly

13 we would want to know if we think one is more

14 appropriate than the other.

15 MR. BROOKMAN: Greg, I actually saw

16 Chuck first.

17 Is your mike on? For some reason we're

18 having a hard time hearing you.

19 MR. POWERS: Chuck Powers. What Charlie

20 recommended makes sense. Lucas, what you guys are

21 thinking about makes sense, too; right? We're

22 generally trying to say, how do we prevent the
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1 pump guy, who is possibly going to spend a lot of

2 money here, to making it so we don't have what

3 we're looking for at the end of the day, but we

4 still have to evaluate this 50 percent regrade. I

5 think Sarah brought up earlier the weighting. So

6 if we do have the floor, we've got a caucus on

7 this, that maybe the weighting, we want to be over

8 here, but we don't want to forget that point, so

9 we have something there, but the hydraulic guy

10 doesn't mess with it.

11 But there is one more significant thing

12 that we have to think about for a company like

13 ours and I think some of the few of the others

14 that are global. If I got a European standard for

15 that same pump, and it's three points, and I've

16 got a U.S.A. standard for four points, which is

17 fine, we end up doing, I'm going to double our

18 efforts probably, costwise, test lab maybe, maybe

19 test lab, probably not, but all those other

20 factors.

21 Alison, when we were on the phone that

22 day with you and Brian -- I think it was Brian;
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1 right? Or Daniel, sorry -- that we were going

2 through, I was trying to explain that day of the

3 different factors involved very dynamically, I was

4 trying to help all the costs involved and things -

5 - for those things. Okay, it just means to a

6 company like ours, maybe not some of the others,

7 but I think a few of them here that are global,

8 now I've got to do it twice. And that's big

9 money; right?

10 MR. BROOKMAN: Greg, you're next.

11 MR. TOWSLEY: Greg Towsley, Grundfos.

12 To try to be concise and take what's been said,

13 the reason the Europeans did the two steps is that

14 the first step of the MEI was to make sure that

15 the most efficient pumps were in place. And then

16 the next step was to take that most efficient pump

17 and acknowledge that a system with a pump motor

18 and/or a drive is an opportunity, they set a

19 different index, a different set of metrics, to it

20 first to clean up the pump and then the second

21 step was to be able to take that whole system and

22 put that different index that applies to it. And
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1 the first MEI gets into the point of proper

2 hydraulic design, whereas trying to spread that

3 design over the full EEI in their case doesn't

4 necessarily apply properly to a pump. So it was a

5 two-step option.

6 MS. WILLIAMS: Can I respond to Greg?

7 So, I mean, I think what Lucas and Charlie were

8 just saying, can we consider doing that by like

9 for a bare pump maybe a weight at .5 is zero or

10 .1, and then for a pump plus motor plus VFD, your

11 weight at .5 is much higher? Like does that help

12 solve that problem?

13 MR. TOWSLEY: Greg Towsley, Grundfos. I

14 agree. I think Charlie was heading down that

15 right direction, is where it's separating with

16 different weighting factors and making sure you're

17 focusing on the pump only and then a separate way

18 to look at it with everything together. So it was

19 headed -- yeah, it's headed there.

20 MR. BROOKMAN: Louis.

21 MR. STARR: Louis Starr with NEEA.

22 So, Greg, one question I have is in the
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1 European market, where they'll take a motor and it

2 gets a certain MEI rating, and then you will take

3 that motor and you apply it in a VFD, does that

4 mean you select a different motor if you're going

5 to use that in a VFD application as opposed to a

6 constant volume motor? And so I'm kind of trying

7 to think what the market effects of that are

8 because that's what the problem is being described

9 as, is that people are going to be designing to

10 undesirable points and cherry-picking the

11 efficiency point. So I'm wondering if the reverse

12 could happen, too, where you design to a constant

13 volume application, but you're actually applying

14 it into a VFD application. And is there negative

15 benefits from that or not?

16 MR. TOWSLEY: Greg Towsley, Grundfos.

17 I'm not really sure. I --

18 MR. STARR: Well, the same motor; right?

19 MR. BROOKMAN: Maybe Al can respond.

20 MR. HUBER: I think Charlie hit it on

21 the head, and I think Lucas understands where

22 we're going here, and I think if we could either
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1 set the 50 at zero, but I would suggest that you

2 don't just do the 50 on the variable speed

3 application, that you set those low points at 100,

4 75, 50, and 25, and that gives you an idea of what

5 benefit you're going to get from the VFD, a better

6 idea of the benefits you'll get from the VFD.

7 Now, how that compares with each other,

8 somebody needs to -- and you've got enough

9 information, I think, you could quickly run up and

10 do it that way quickly so we could all see the

11 results and see what the PER was between the two,

12 and then let's look at it as a group and say,

13 "Yeah, that will work," or, "No, that won't, we've

14 got to do something else." I mean, we're not

15 against one number, but we are against doing the

16 wrong calculations to get there.

17 MR. BROOKMAN: Arnie wishes to comment,

18 and he's finding a microphone.

19 MR. SDANO: Arnie Sdano, Pentair. Two

20 comments. Number one, I think Lucas mentioned,

21 and Sarah did earlier, as far as the PER number, I

22 would be totally in favor of switching over to
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1 efficiency, it's already a dimensionalist number,

2 and you end up with something that you really can

3 compare from pump to pump, and it makes it

4 something that we understand it would meet Al's

5 requirement of the bigger the number, the better

6 it is -- right? -- so that we would have some

7 understanding there.

8 Then secondly, I think I would like to

9 see the simplification, as we suggested, of the

10 75, 100, 110, but then if we want to apply a load

11 factor or correction factor that would favor the

12 VFD applications, it seems like a more logical way

13 to go.

14 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Thank you.

15 Joanna.

16 MS. MAUER: I just wanted to make sure I

17 understood your previous comments about the 50

18 percent load and that you may reduce the peak

19 broad in the curve because I think you guys have

20 said all along that you kind of like the EU

21 approach of having the three points because it

22 actually prevents manufacturers from only
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1 designing for peak, having a very steep curve, but

2 we know that people aren't operating there.

3 So are you saying that the 50 percent

4 point in particular is problematic? Because, I

5 mean, having 75 and 110 will also tend to lower

6 the peak somewhat broad in the curve.

7 MR. HUBER: Al Huber, Patterson. We

8 design for that operating range, and that

9 operating range generally is between 75 and 110

10 percent. That's where we design pumps. We don't

11 design them out at 50 percent. Okay? We just

12 don't. And if we did that -- and Chuck is right -

13 - in many cases, if we did it that way, if it

14 became important, then we would have to consider

15 that, and in considering that, to do what we would

16 have to do to bring that efficiency up out there,

17 we would have to do something on the suction side

18 of the pump, and when we did that, then 75, 110,

19 and 100 would drop down just like this, and the 50

20 would go up, but that's not where you want to

21 operate anyway. You don't want to operate at the

22 50 percent.
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1 I want to make sure that everybody

2 understands, if somebody needs to operate at 50,

3 we want them using a VFD, and they're not going to

4 be at 50, they're going to be close to BEP because

5 that curve is not exact, it doesn't follow

6 exactly, he's correct, but it will get you very

7 close, and we will stay within that narrow band.

8 MR. POWERS: This is Chuck. But I think

9 also fundamentally -- and, Joanna, you bring up a

10 good point -- how many VFDs are out there on these

11 types; right? We know, I think -- I'm not the

12 expert at it, but like when we talked about the

13 products, the HVAC stuff, it's a standard, it's

14 part of it. Every one that goes out the door has

15 it, so that's a given; right? Pool pumps probably

16 100 percent; right? But when you're getting into

17 these other categories for what we're talking

18 about, you know, I don't have an exact answer, but

19 I doubt very many of them have VFDs; right?

20 Now, in communicating this, though, the

21 pump guys can end up becoming the best marketing

22 tool for you -- right? -- for the users and your
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1 companies and stuff like that. We could put right

2 in -- you know, we were talking about -- Charlie

3 was kind of neat talking about this label thing.

4 That's a great idea, right on the pump or

5 something like that, but write in the instruction

6 manual, write in our literature that goes out, you

7 say, "Look, here's your pump," and it's MEI or

8 it's some simple thing a layman could understand

9 is X, "but, by the way, if you use a VFD, look

10 what it's going to do for you, and if you use

11 this, look what it will do for you." We can put

12 those kinds of things in our information, every

13 pump that goes out the door has it in there.

14 MR. BROOKMAN: I'm wondering if you

15 would still like to caucus. I'm looking -- and

16 Steve has got a quick comment.

17 Steve.

18 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Just a quick question

19 on the EEI side. We were talking about the

20 extended system. Those numbers were the 50, 75,

21 100. That was of the BEP; right?

22 MR. HUBER: That's correct.
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1 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Would you ever really

2 run something at 25 percent of BEP?

3 MR. HUBER: No, you would not. That is

4 correct.

5 MR. ROSENSTOCK: So my question --

6 MR. HUBER: What you've got to

7 understand, you have to understand, with a VFD,

8 it's possible to -- it's 25 percent of the flow,

9 BEP flow, not load.

10 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Okay.

11 MR. HUBER: Okay, of flow, so --

12 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Okay, so it's -- but --

13 MR. HUBER: And they're two different

14 things, and that's why sometimes people who are

15 not involved in pumps don't understand that. So

16 what I would like for you -- if we could, if Sarah

17 could run those calculations we were talking -- we

18 just discussed, and come up with two PERs that we

19 could compare and look at, then I would like to

20 caucus with my group after we see that right

21 quick.

22 How long will it take you to do that,
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1 Sarah?

2 MS. WIDDER: Just a couple minutes. I

3 was going to do it on the bare pump case.

4 Everybody okay with that?

5 MR. HUBER: Well, you do it on the bare

6 pump, but also I want to see --

7 MS. WIDDER: Well, with the controls,

8 we'll account for that, but just like the

9 calculations that we --

10 MR. BROOKMAN: Let's be clear what

11 you're going to produce.

12 MR. HUBER: Yeah, I want to be clear

13 what I want. I want a PER calculation with zero

14 weight on 50 percent.

15 MS. WIDDER: Mm-hmm.

16 MR. HUBER: Then we would like a PER

17 calculation with the pump, motor, and control at

18 100, 75, 50, and 25, and what is that PER? So

19 that we all can look at it.

20 MR. ECKMAN: Equal weighting. Equal

21 weighting.

22 MR. HUBER: Equal weighted: 25, 25, 25.
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1 MS. WIDDER: Yep.

2 MR. HUBER: Okay?

3 MS. WIDDER: Okay.

4 MR. HUBER: And equal weighting on the

5 other three. And that's what we would like to

6 see. If we can do that --

7 MS. WIDDER: Yep, we can do that.

8 MR. HUBER: -- then we can figure out

9 how best to -- if it looks like it's going to be

10 logical and work, then we can figure out how to

11 present that to the consumer in a way he can

12 understand it. Then we can argue -- well, not

13 argue about it, but then we can discuss that.

14 MR. POWERS: And, Steve, this is not a

15 perfect (off mike), but I'm showing the curve, and

16 it's not perfect science. So these dashes down

17 here are the BEP flows; right? 50 percent, 75,

18 100, this is the typical curve thing. This would

19 be -- this is not a system curve even though (off

20 mike). This dashed line theoretically would be

21 the speed (off mike). This line here is what we

22 call (off mike) best efficiency point, so as you
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1 come down, they don't track perfectly, so where

2 he's coming from, as you slow it down, you're

3 trying to stay within a BEP, but at 25 or 50

4 percent flow of the --

5 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Of the original speed.

6 MR. POWERS: Of the original speed.

7 MR. HUBER: Of the original speed.

8 MR. POWERS: But there are a lot of

9 calculations going there. Is that fair?

10 MR. BROOKMAN: So, yes, Paul Lin.

11 MR. LIN: So just to maybe have it clear

12 in my mind, from a goal standpoint still; right?

13 I think we talked about this on the break. We

14 want to define that the result of this working

15 group is a value for a bare pump, minimum

16 efficiency for the bare pump, at the same time,

17 providing a method of the extended product so that

18 we can do a comparison of the bare pump plus motor

19 plus the control. Right? So what they're going

20 to be regulated on is the bare pump.

21 MR. BROOKMAN: Lucas.

22 MR. ADIN: Well, they would be regulated
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1 on -- it's the pump which we defined as bare pump,

2 pump plus motor, pump plus controls; right? So

3 we're regulated based on whatever that

4 configuration is, but when we do the standard5 setting analysis, we're making the assumption that

6 those other components are just standardized,

7 there is some default value. So they're not

8 varying. The only component that's varying is the

9 bare pump efficiency. So we are effectively

10 setting the standard on bare pump efficiency. The

11 metric is designed to supply information about the

12 expected energy use or efficiency of the product

13 as it would actually be used since the pump will

14 be used with a motor and maybe used with some kind

15 of controls.

16 So that's really what we're trying to

17 do, and the way that we had seen it originally is

18 that having that combined metric adds a degree of

19 flexibility to the manufacturer because they're

20 not -- even though we would only be analyzing for

21 improved pump efficiency, the practical effect is

22 that they could still get more efficiency from the
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1 total product by improving the motor. Like you

2 could get other -- there are other ways of

3 improving efficiency. I don't know if it actually

4 costs less to use an improved motor over hydraulic

5 improvements to the pump. I mean, that's

6 something we'll have to -- you know, I'm sure

7 we'll hear about, but in any case, that was one

8 perceived advantage from our point of view of

9 doing it that way, but when we do the analysis for

10 the standard setting, the pump, the bare pump, is

11 the value that is varied for the purposes of

12 setting the standard.

13 MR. BROOKMAN: So just to be clear, the

14 metric that's being considered here is meant to

15 accommodate or to serve that range of potential

16 applications; right?

17 MR. ADIN: Yes.

18 MR. BROOKMAN: Steve Rosenstock.

19 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Steve Rosenstock, EEI.

20 Sarah, I'm just wondering, I don't know if you

21 have the data, but I know that kind of the example

22 that you've done is with a 60-horsepower motor.
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1 Do you have any information for a small unit just

2 to see what the numbers come out, let's say a 5-

3 or 10-horsepower motor?

4 MS. WIDDER: I don't with me. I can

5 plug in -- so I have this spreadsheet, I can -- if

6 I made up data for a smaller unit, I certainly

7 could do that, but I don't think that's helpful.

8 We don't have any test data.

9 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Well, I --

10 MR. BROOKMAN: Hopefully, right now

11 you're working on this -- the request that Al just

12 made.

13 MS. WIDDER: Yep. That's what I'm

14 doing.

15 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. So let's let her

16 do that. Okay?

17 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Well -- Steve

18 Rosenstock, EEI -- yeah, I just wanted to --

19 because we're doing such a wide range of possible

20 configurations, I just, for myself, I just want to

21 see how the numbers shook out at a small number

22 because that could have an impact in terms of what
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1 kind of metric we eventually decide on.

2 MR. BROOKMAN: Right. So let's not lose

3 that idea, let's just let her complete this

4 calculation.

5 Arnie.

6 MR. SDANO: Arnie Sdano, Pentair.

7 Sarah, I've got a question. I know that you had

8 described the 1.8 exponent on the system head

9 curve, and the 2.8 on scaling up of the power.

10 MS. WIDDER: Right.

11 MR. SDANO: I've got some questions on

12 that. I don't really fully agree with that. When

13 you did your calculations, that means that the

14 intersection with the pump curve would change.

15 It's not a single point on the pump curve that

16 you're scaling down, so you have to have a curve

17 fit to the pump curve when you do that analysis.

18 Did you include that?

19 MS. WIDDER: What we did was we assumed

20 that from BEP you were starting at BEP and

21 following the curve down, so --

22 MR. SDANO: For a 50 percent change in
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1 speed for the pump, it will follow the affinity

2 laws with a 2.0 exponent and a 3.0 exponent,

3 though.

4 MS. WIDDER: Right. So based -- and we

5 can certainly redo the analysis to account for a

6 3.0 exponent.

7 MR. SDANO: That would really simplify

8 it, I think, if you would do that.

9 MS. WIDDER: Yeah. So the reason we had

10 assumed 2.8 was, A, based on this data that I

11 found in the ASHRAE Fundamentals Handbook about --

12 anyways, but, yes, we can redo it with the

13 fundamental affinity laws and --

14 MR. SDANO: Yeah. And I agree with that

15 statement that generally pump system designers

16 will use a lower exponent, but it's usually more

17 conservative of the 1.95 range because they

18 realize that when it starts up, the pipes are

19 clean and they have less friction, but with time,

20 there is going to be some corrosion in the pipe

21 that's going to occur, and the friction will

22 usually come back up to that 2.0 level.
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1 MS. WIDDER: Right. So we can change

2 that. The other thing that I'll just mention with

3 regard to the reason for selecting a 2.8 exponent

4 instead of 3 was partly to represent what pumps

5 experience in the field and partly to ensure the

6 calculation was conservative.

7 MR. SDANO: As you mentioned, well, it

8 sort of depends because if you assume it's also

9 applicable to the pump, then that's not the case.

10 So I would think that just for simplification, you

11 would be much better off assuming that the

12 affinity laws are going to hold both for the pump

13 and the system, use the 2.0 and the 3.0 on the

14 power.

15 MS. WIDDER: Okay. So the calculations

16 I'll present in a minute will use a 3.0 exponent.

17 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. So what I would

18 like to do is provide Sarah relief so she can do

19 this calculation. I would like to raise another

20 issue until she's ready to report, and that's the

21 issue that a few individuals have raised earlier,

22 which is a bigger number is better, a bigger
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1 number is better for a signal to the consumer I

2 think is the implication that Al put on the table,

3 and others have said such a thing. Is that your

4 leaning? Is that the working group generally? Is

5 that something --

6 Tom Eckman, I see you nodding your head.

7 MR. ECKMAN: I think all sides of the

8 table agree with that. (Laughing.)

9 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. And then, Al, you

10 can speak on behalf of your caucus in this

11 respect?

12 MR. HUBER: Yes, absolutely. I think

13 it's human nature, and you're trying to drive --

14 well, I guess we shouldn't say that, but you are

15 trying to drive behavior, positive behavior, so I

16 think you should reinforce it, and the larger

17 number makes it look like it's better.

18 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay.

19 MR. HUBER: And when we look at the

20 efficiency of a pump, it's always the higher

21 number is better. And if you use something that

22 says "PER," "Pump Energy Rating," it should be the
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1 better it is, the higher it is. I mean, that's

2 the normal way the human mind works in looking at

3 these things. And that's my opinion, but --

4 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. I just thought I

5 would see. I don't think -- I think -- I'm not

6 noting as I scan the room that there is any

7 dissent on this point yet. I'm not going to act

8 formally on it, but I just thought I would get a

9 temperature read.

10 Lucas?

11 MR. ADIN: Maybe I'll just point out in

12 general terms. I mean, we understand that feeling

13 about it generally, and there are standards -- you

14 could categorize DOE energy standards for

15 different products either as consumption standards

16 or efficiency standards. Some are efficiency:

17 obviously higher is better; consumption, lower is

18 better. But we're listening to you on what makes

19 the most sense to the customers in your market.

20 How do they use this information? What makes

21 sense to them? And so that's the factor that, you

22 know, it could be lower, or higher is better, but
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1 what will communicate the best information to

2 them? And I think that's really what we're

3 hearing from the other members here, so --

4 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay.

5 MS. WIDDER: Okay. We're pretty much

6 done. I'm just double checking since we had those

7 issues before. Okay, we're good.

8 So here are the results. Let me make

9 this a little bit more --

10 MS. WILLIAMS: Sarah?

11 MS. WIDDER: Yeah.

12 MS. WILLIAMS: Are you sure that (off

13 mike)?

14 MS. WIDDER: This one?

15 MS. WILLIAMS: (Off mike) 48.

16 MS. WIDDER: This one?

17 MS. WILLIAMS: Shouldn't that be lower?

18 MS. WIDDER: Yeah. Let me check. Okay.

19 Pump plus motor, it's zero, zero -- I don't know.

20 Yeah, there we go.

21 MR. BROOKMAN: Yes, Mark.

22 MR. HANDZEL: Mark Handzel from Xylem.
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1 Can we just maybe take an early lunch and give her

2 some time because I hate to put her on the spot,

3 you know, as you have a room full of people

4 sitting here watching her. We want it to be

5 accurate, so let her do it right.

6 MR. BROOKMAN: You want to take it with

7 you to lunch with you, don't you?

8 UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: Sarah, I

9 think that's 48.

10 MS. WIDDER: Yeah. I just changed it.

11 UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: I mean, we

12 could, but I don't --

13 MR. BROOKMAN: I was thinking that we

14 were real close.

15 UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: Okay.

16 MR. BROOKMAN: Let's give it a chance.

17 UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: Okay.

18 MS. WIDDER: Yep. Yep.

19 MR. POWERS: Sarah, this is great

20 because in a way this would help (off mike) for

21 some hydraulics. The 75 to 110 is 48. The 50 to

22 110 (off mike) 45 (off mike) in this case would be
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1 the 25 or 100, but that doesn't show the 110 (off

2 mike), but what we would be recommending would be

3 the 75 to 110 is going to get efficiencies higher

4 for the overall concept, you know, from that

5 standpoint.

6 MR. BROOKMAN: So do you feel like

7 you've got it now?

8 MS. WIDDER: Yeah. I mean, I think

9 these numbers, they make sense, they all go down.

10 The 25 percent. So the things that I see here are

11 the 25 percent, this middle column, you get the

12 best impact from a VFD, but you see a decrease in

13 power consumption in every case.

14 UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: Yeah.

15 MS. WIDDER: You see the least with the

16 75, 100, 110. If we compared -- I mean, the issue

17 here is what we've been discussing is comparing

18 this number to this number, which is it's just

19 apples and oranges. You know, they shouldn't be

20 compared and that's just what we're talking about.

21 For the 50 -- for the scenario we've been

22 discussing, it's just sort of like a hybrid
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1 between the two, it's just a compromise.

2 MR. BROOKMAN: So you were asking for a

3 caucus, a chance to break and talk about this.

4 It's 11:30. I'm a little hungry.

5 (Laughter.)

6 MR. BROOKMAN: Shall we break for lunch

7 now? Because when we return from lunch, we're

8 going to stop at 3:00 today.

9 MR. POWERS: What are the topics we have

10 to cover this afternoon?

11 MR. BROOKMAN: Well, I think this is

12 primarily it. And there may be a few loose ends

13 that Lucas has got, a few small items, but I think

14 this is principally what we intend to cover in the

15 remainder of the day.

16 MR. POWERS: So we could be done by 1:00

17 then.

18 (Laughter.)

19 MS. WIDDER: Well, if that's the case,

20 we'll bring up some other stuff. (Laughing.)

21 MR. BROOKMAN: Steve Rosenstock.

22 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Steve Rosenstock, EEI.
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1 I'm looking at this and again I'm just -- I was

2 just -- I probably need to go back to that page

3 with the denominator, but I'm kind of curious with

4 certain constructs, with certain denominators,

5 especially if they're fixed denominators, it will

6 stay say eventually it will be lower is better.

7 MR. BROOKMAN: Lucas Adin.

8 MR. ADIN: Would it be helpful for us to

9 show this with different denominators?

10 MR. HUBER: Yeah. I think -- yeah.

11 MS. WIDDER: Yeah. Let me make a big

12 table over lunch and then we can talk about it.

13 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay, let's do that.

14 Let's break for --

15 MR. HUBER: Yeah, that would be good.

16 MS. WIDDER: Okay.

17 MR. BROOKMAN: Break for lunch.

18 MR. POWERS: Sarah, how much time do you

19 need so we benefit you?

20 MS. WIDDER: Right. I mean, I think

21 whatever we take for lunch usually is fine. I

22 mean, it won't -- I've got it all set up, so I
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1 just need to do it.

2 MR. POWERS: But you have to eat, too.

3 So, I mean, do you have enough time?

4 MS. WIDDER: Yeah. It will be fine.

5 MR. BROOKMAN: It's 11:30. Let's break

6 for lunch. We'll return -- we'll resume at 12:30.

7 Okay.

8 (Lunch.)

9 MR. BROOKMAN: So let's resume. The

10 computer is working, so we can pick up where we

11 left off. Let me also say for those of you that

12 are joining us via the web, maybe they're just now

13 rejoining us via the web, welcome. The Department

14 of Energy is trying very hard to make these

15 meetings accessible. And I hope you're finding

16 this working group meeting useful for your

17 purposes.

18 Where we left off was that Sarah was

19 doing some crunching during lunch. She also got

20 to eat; I confirmed that. That's important.

21 Gary Fernstrom, before we go into some

22 data presentation.
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1 MR. FERNSTROM: So Gary. You mentioned

2 accessible, and that brought to mind the promise

3 that we would be able to utilize the SharePoint.

4 MR. BROOKMAN: Good point.

5 MR. FERNSTROM: And I don't know that I

6 have gotten my password to the SharePoint --

7 MR. BROOKMAN: I think you're cutting in

8 and out. Are you hitting that thing?

9 MR. FERNSTROM: Yeah. I'm turning the -

10 - thank you.

11 (Laughter.)

12 MR. BROOKMAN: So maybe we'll ask

13 Jeremiah.

14 Lucas, go ahead.

15 MR. ADIN: Yeah. Well, I think Doug was

16 going to say it, but we'll try and get to the

17 bottom of why that might be a problem, because you

18 should have access, so, yeah.

19 MR. BROOKMAN: We established, clearly

20 established, that this read-only access should be

21 available, and so we'll make that happen.

22 MR. FERNSTROM: So anyway, I had asked
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1 for myself and read-only access for the consultant

2 that's working with us at Energy Solutions.

3 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Lucas will follow

4 up on that.

5 Meg, you want to -- are you all set?

6 (No audible response.)

7 MR. BROOKMAN: Mark, do you want in

8 here?

9 MR. HANDZEL: I was just going to offer

10 to forward Gary the e-mail I sent to Jeremiah this

11 morning asking for my password --

12 (Laughter.)

13 MR. HANDZEL: -- and he sent me an e14 mail back and gave me the e-mail address that I

15 needed to send the request to. So I have already

16 sent that, so I'll forward it to Gary so he can

17 see it, but --

18 MR. BROOKMAN: Meg.

19 MS. WALTNER: I'll just add to that. If

20 you haven't logged in, in a certain amount of

21 time, your old password expires. That has

22 happened to me, too. So if you're having trouble
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1 logging in, e-mail that address.

2 MR. BROOKMAN: Oh, that is, after you

3 receive the e-mail from Jeremiah, you need to log

4 in expeditiously.

5 MS. WALTNER: No, like if you haven't

6 logged in since December, your password is now

7 expired.

8 MR. BROOKMAN: Ah.

9 MS. WALTNER: You need to get a new

10 password.

11 MR. BROOKMAN: Do you know what the

12 timeframe is?

13 MS. WALTNER: I think it's 90 days.

14 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Good enough.

15 MS. WALTNER: Yeah, that's what happened

16 to me.

17 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. That's good to

18 know, good to know.

19 Sarah. Sarah Widder is up.

20 MS. WIDDER: Okay. So I apologize that

21 I have not clearly come up with an excellent

22 presentation of this data, so it's just a lot of
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1 numbers, but I will describe briefly what we are

2 looking at here, and then we can drill into

3 anything the committee might be interested in,

4 make some charts if we want. Across the top here,

5 these are the weighting, the load factors. And

6 these are all -- or, no, excuse me. These are the

7 load factors are 50, 75, 100, and 110, and that

8 would be equal weighting at these load factors.

9 This one is equal weighting at those load points.

10 This is equal weighting at the EU load points, so

11 those were the three we looked at before. And

12 then I've also added the normal weighting for just

13 in specific these load points, so just what we had

14 the calculation -- the sensitivity on previously.

15 It was the 50, 75, 100, and 110 load points, but

16 then we have now weighted the 50 percent load

17 point differently, we based it on a normal

18 distribution, sort of like we talked about in the

19 slides. It's just looking at the manipulation of

20 weighting. We can change those if we want to.

21 MR. BROOKMAN: But that's still not

22 clear to me.
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1 MS. WIDDER: Okay. So let me do that

2 one more time.

3 So let's ignore these for a second. The

4 ones that are not highlighted, these three, are

5 what we looked at before. So these are equally

6 weighted on the left-hand column, 50 percent of

7 BEP flow, 75 percent of BEP flow, 100 percent of

8 BEP flow, and 110 percent of BEP flow. Let me

9 just write that. And then equal weighting.

10 So this one is the same except for the -

11 - what's that?

12 MR. BROOKMAN: We got all three of

13 those, it's just when you moved the normal

14 distribution, that's the one that confused us.

15 MS. WIDDER: Yep. Okay. So let me --

16 so that is 50, 75, 110 percent of BEP flow, and

17 normalized weights as opposed to equal weighting.

18 And then the discrete values versus bins just

19 refers to how the normalization is applied to the

20 different load points. So I've brought up -- I

21 can actually go back to the -- there we go. So

22 does that help? Anybody?
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1 MR. POTTS: Sarah.

2 MS. WIDDER: Yeah.

3 MR. POTTS: This is Doug Potts. So the

4 normalized distribution, you're following the

5 normal distribution curve that you have at the

6 back of those slides. Is that what you're saying?

7 MS. WIDDER: Mm-hmm. Precisely.

8 MR. POTTS: Thank you.

9 MS. WIDDER: And so if --

10 MR. POTTS: Can you refresh me on like

11 what the values are?

12 MS. WIDDER: Yeah. Let's go back to

13 that. Right here, there is the load shape that we

14 assumed, and right here this bar chart, the darker

15 and lighter blue bars are the specific weights

16 that are applied. The specific values are not on

17 this chart, but you can see that the discrete bins

18 will be -- or the discrete values will be about

19 .47, .42, .08, and .02 or 4 or something like that

20 at 110 percent, and then the lighter blue bars are

21 a little bit above .3. The highest bar at 75

22 percent of BEP flow, .4, I don't know, 8, 6, 7, or
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1 8. And then a .18 and 100 percent of BEP flow and

2 then very little weight on the 110 percent of BEP

3 flow.

4 MR. POTTS: Okay. Sarah?

5 MS. WIDDER: Yeah.

6

7 MR. POTTS: I mean, I don't -- I think

8 that probably doesn't -- it's probably not a great

9 representation of where pumps would operate. I

10 mean, I think they would normally be operating --

11 is this meant to represent the variable speed

12 situation or even a constant speed situation?

13 MS. WIDDER: This was meant to -- so

14 when we had broken up the discussion previously,

15 we talked about -- Lucas -- or Louis had suggested

16 applying a normal load curve, and so we applied a

17 normal load curve from zero to 120 percent of BEP

18 flow, and it's just math determining those values.

19 So there is definitely -- I have not gone out and

20 gathered data on what representative load factors

21 would be. I have tried to gather data, and it's

22 all over the board. So I think we can certainly
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1 look at different -- if we wanted to more heavily

2 weight perhaps the 75 percent and 100 percent of

3 BEP flow conditions and weight less the others

4 one, the point of having these on the chart that I

5 made was to look at -- actually, maybe it would

6 help if I moved this column from here to here. So

7 now we can compare these three, and then if we

8 compare these three, it's looking at the impact of

9 the different weights on the PER value. Does that

10 make sense?

11 MR. POWERS: I think, Sarah, yeah, it

12 would help --

13 MR. BROOKMAN: First compare these

14 three; right?

15 MS. WIDDER: Right. I had to go back.

16 I'm sorry. It messed up my other one. Hold on.

17 Perhaps I should have not even put the normal on

18 here. Let me see if that worked. Yes. Okay.

19 Now we're good.

20 So now go back to your thing, Doug?

21 MR. POTTS: Well, I thought you were

22 suggesting that the first point of comparison are
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1 these three cells here.

2 MS. WIDDER: Yep.

3 MR. POTTS: These three columns.

4 MS. WIDDER: Yeah. So let's just do

5 that.

6 MR. POTTS: Okay. Yeah.

7 MS. WIDDER: We'll just hide these for

8 now. We'll pretend that they're not there. Okay.

9 So we're looking at the same three.

10 Yeah, Al?

11 MR. HUBER: You know, I don't want to

12 overcomplicate this. What we really -- what our

13 proposal is of what we really want to discuss is,

14 is that we want to see the bare pump, and you

15 might as well make the bare pump and the motor,

16 their values judged at 75, 100, and 110 percent.

17 MS. WIDDER: Mm-hmm.

18 MR. HUBER: And the variable speed only,

19 pump, motor, and control, only one is of real

20 interest to us, and that is what you marked in

21 yellow --

22 MS. WIDDER: Right. So those values are
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1 --

2 MR. HUBER: And you should mark in

3 yellow the pump motor under the 75, 100, and 110.

4 MS. WIDDER: Okay. So those are the

5 values that are of interest to you guys --

6 MR. HUBER: That's all we're interested

7 in.

8 MS. WIDDER: But I did want to include

9 all the other values just from a basis of

10 comparison.

11 MR. HUBER: That's fine, but, I mean,

12 that tells us what we're looking for. Now, I

13 mean, you could do the inverse of that and then

14 you would be able to do what we were talking about

15 earlier and having the higher value, the best

16 value --

17 MS. WIDDER: Right. So actually this

18 one right here, I took the inverse, and so these -

19 -

20 MR. HUBER: Yeah, but you did something

21 else, too; right?

22 MS. WIDDER: This? No, this is just the
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1 inverse.

2 MR. HUBER: Okay. That's fine.

3 MS. WIDDER: Right here, higher is

4 better.

5 MR. HUBER: Okay.

6 MS. WIDDER: So it's just the inverse of

7 one over the other value. We'll hide those.

8 MR. HUBER: The problem is, the problem

9 that I see here is, is that the pump and motor

10 looks better than just the pump.

11 MS. WIDDER: Yes.

12 MR. HUBER: And that can't be.

13 MS. WIDDER: Why not?

14 MR. ADIN: Well, we --

15 MR. HUBER: Because you --

16 MS. WIDDER: Oh.

17 MR. ADIN: Wait.

18 MS. WIDDER: Sorry.

19 MR. ADIN: I think you need to clarify

20 the assumptions that are made in coming up with

21 those two numbers.

22 MS. WIDDER: Right. Right.
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1 MR. ADIN: The one that says bare pump

2 actually does have an assumption for a motor, it's

3 just a minimum efficiency motor.

4 MS. WIDDER: Right.

5 MR. ADIN: The pump plus motor assumes

6 the motor is more efficient than the minimum DOE

7 federal standard.

8 MR. HUBER: Now you're getting us

9 confused. You need to try to make this simple so

10 that we can --

11 (Laughter.)

12 MR. HUBER: I'm serious now. You're

13 getting way out of hand with all these

14 permutations. We really need to dig down and

15 figure out what it is we're trying to do. Now, if

16 bare pump is pump and motor, where in the world is

17 bare pump?

18 MS. WIDDER: So the --

19 MR. HUBER: Where is bare pump? Just

20 pump, just the pump? Where is just the pump?

21 MS. WIDDER: I did not calculate just

22 the pump.
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1 MR. HUBER: Well, that's what we need.

2 We need the pump, we need the pump motor, and we

3 need the VFD, and that's what we really need.

4 MR. POWERS: And, Sarah, I think -- this

5 is Chuck Powers -- to help Al out, I think also

6 just to be fair, if you take a guy like Doug, who

7 spoke up earlier, I understand what you were

8 trying to do with this chart, with the bar chart,

9 and I also understand what you were trying to do

10 with this curve normalization you're doing, but

11 it's not the real world. So if you're going to

12 show data up there -- right? -- that shows people

13 are running pumps back here at 50 percent and at

14 the 100 percent capacity it's showing it's way

15 down at less than 005 percent weight, that's far

16 from the real world.

17 And I'm not trying to speak up, but

18 Doug, who designs and buys this stuff and runs

19 this equipment all the time is a good benchmark,

20 so to speak, but I think if you were to go out and

21 do that, and if you don't have the data, and I'm

22 not saying you should have, we shouldn't represent
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1 stuff that's just not even close because it's

2 going to start to send us down the wrong path.

3 MS. WIDDER: Okay. So let's not talk

4 about the normalization, let's just talk about

5 equal weighting. Yeah.

6 MR. BROOKMAN: Paul, do you want to go

7 ahead? Paul Lin.

8 MR. LIN: Paul Lin, with Regal-Beloit.

9 I asked myself that same question when I was doing

10 the homework, when I was looking through the

11 charts, it was talking about the bare pump, and my

12 question to myself at the time was, why would we

13 include the motor efficiency within the bare pump

14 equation? Because my view was that you wouldn't,

15 but then I thought about it a little bit more and

16 said I think the only reason that they've done

17 that is that they can more easily compare when you

18 get to a pump and motor and then pump, motor, and

19 control standpoint because if you didn't have an

20 efficiency standpoint on a bare pump, the -- or

21 the, I shouldn't say the dimensions -- the units

22 that is applied to a bare pump could not be
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1 weighed against a bare pump plus motor and bare

2 pump plus control plus motor.

3 MS. WIDDER: Mm-hmm.

4 MR. LIN: I think that's the reason why

5 they included some default motor efficiency on

6 that bare pump side.

7 MR. HUBER: Al Huber, Patterson. I

8 understand that, but what -- here's what we're

9 trying to do as manufacturers, though. We're

10 trying to come up with an MEI, or a Minimum

11 Efficiency Index, for the pump only, and we'll

12 have to do that regardless, and we all agree to

13 that.

14 So we basically have three things we're

15 trying to do -- right? -- we're trying to make

16 sure that we have a measurement of, and those are

17 the three elements that we outlined in the

18 original screen -- a bare pump, a bare pump with

19 motor, and a bare pump with motor and control --

20 and we need to try to do that. I mean, that's

21 what we need to do.

22 I did not understand when you had bare
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1 pump in there, it had a standard motor, and then

2 you had pump and motor that had a better

3 efficiency, I had no idea that's what you were

4 doing.

5 MS. WIDDER: Okay.

6 MR. HUBER: I don't think anybody else

7 did.

8 MS. WIDDER: So you just want the pump

9 power weighted at those load points. That's what

10 you would like?

11 MR. HUBER: You know, yeah, or whatever,

12 whatever you're going to do.

13 MS. WIDDER: So the pump power weighted

14 at those load points will take me a little bit to

15 go and fill in for each of these cases, but --

16 MR. HUBER: You don't have to do that.

17 It's just --

18 MS. WIDDER: It will be -- I'll tell you

19 right now, with no motor, it will be slightly

20 higher. If I'm going to guess numbers, and I'll

21 make them bold so we know that they're -- I'll

22 make them red so we know they're my guesses -- it
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1 would be something like 39.1, 48 point -- well,

2 essentially it will be about this divided by zero

3 point --

4 MR. HUBER: Nine, yeah, right.

5 MS. WIDDER: That's what it will be.

6 MR. HUBER: Okay. Now, so we sell --

7 MS. WALTNER: (Off mike.)

8 MS. WIDDER: Oh. No, it will be

9 divided.

10 UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: Because if

11 you would multiply it (off mike) you would

12 multiply (off mike).

13 UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: Go

14 backwards.

15 MS. WIDDER: Oh, going backwards.

16 You're right.

17 UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE SPEAKER: (Off mike)

18 divided by the (off mike) originally.

19 MS. WIDDER: Yep. Yep. You're right.

20 There we go.

21 MS. WILLIAMS: So this is Alison. While

22 she's doing that, I just want to -- I mean, the
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1 reason we're using a default motor is because all

2 pumps have to be driven. Right? And so we felt

3 that it was more representative and comparable to

4 assume that they have a driver of some sort.

5 MR. HUBER: That's fine. But you've got

6 -- you know, somebody needs to explain it. When

7 you tell me a bare pump, anybody on this side of

8 the table, it's a pump with nothing on it, a

9 separate pump. Now, we sell those, and this is

10 where we've got to -- this is what this room has

11 to try to wrestle with. In the marketplace, we do

12 sell bare pumps, that is, with no motor. And we

13 do sell pumps with motors, and we sell pumps with

14 pump, motor, and control. So we've got to have --

15 seriously, we've got to have some way to measure

16 those three. And you're wanting to use the same

17 measurement; correct? I mean, that's what you

18 decided when you say "measurement."

19 Part of this exercise was to see if that

20 logically will work out. And that was the reason

21 I wanted you to do this, so that we could look at

22 the figures and say, okay, did somebody make a
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1 reasonable purchase with this information or not?

2 Right? I mean, that's what you're --

3 MR. POWERS: Okay, but, Sarah, please

4 stop what you're doing, just stop for a second.

5 MS. WIDDER: Okay.

6 MR. BROOKMAN: Chuck Powers.

7 MR. POWERS: Yeah, sorry, Chuck Powers.

8 Could you just stop and look up?

9 MS. WIDDER: Yep. What's up?

10 (Laughter.)

11 MR. POWERS: There you go. Okay. You

12 putting in red numbers does us no good right now.

13 I get where you're going, but the bottom line is

14 if you have a bare pump -- just listen to the

15 math. Okay? You know this. If a motor was 95,

16 you're 5 percent less efficiency for the combined

17 unit. So if the pump was 1, the combination would

18 be .95. If you threw in a VFD in there, just

19 throw out the 95 percent, it would be another 5

20 percent. So the combination, by definition, would

21 be a .9. You're starting, just throwing numbers

22 in here, you're saying a bare pump would be less
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1 efficient than a pump and a motor from wire-to2 water. That's not true.

3 MS. WIDDER: A bare pump would be --

4 MS. WILLIAMS: Yeah, so great. That's

5 just a scenario. So what she has for the bare

6 pump is basically based on assuming a default

7 federal minimum efficiency motor, and just for

8 purposes of comparison, for the pump plus motor,

9 she said, what if we pair that pump with a better

10 efficiency motor so that you, as a manufacturer,

11 can be like, "Hey, look, I have a better pump"?

12 So all we're doing with what we've been

13 calling bare pump is just taking the pump

14 efficiency and assigning a default motor

15 efficiency value.

16 MR. HUBER: I have no problem with that,

17 and I don't think these folks do either. You

18 really don't need up on this screen for what we're

19 trying to decide a pump with a better motor, you

20 don't need that there. For this decision process,

21 we don't need that.

22 MS. WIDDER: Okay.
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1 MR. HUBER: And I don't disagree that

2 you've got to drive it with something. If you

3 want to set the standard and the assumption is

4 that a bare pump is a pump with a standardized

5 motor, that's fine, too. You just need to

6 understand you better tell us what your

7 assumptions are --

8 MS. WILLIAMS: Yeah.

9 MS. WIDDER: Okay.

10 MR. HUBER: -- because we don't -- we

11 didn't understand that.

12 MS. WIDDER: Yeah. And I apologize. It

13 was a misunderstanding on my part because I had

14 been thinking bare pump means bare pump plus

15 minimum efficiency motor, but now we have at least

16 reasonable assumptions for what that PER might

17 look like for purposes of comparison, and I can

18 continue filling this in, but maybe let's look at

19 what we see right here, and I'll get rid of the

20 rows that you don't need. So is this looking more

21 like what you were expecting, Al?

22 MR. HUBER: Yeah. When you say a bare
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1 pump is the one with a standard motor, and then

2 you've got pump, motor --

3 MS. WIDDER: No, no, no, no. Sorry. So

4 let me make them -- I'll write them again. Okay.

5 So here we've got bare pump, no motor.

6 MR. HUBER: Just kill bare pump.

7 MS. WIDDER: Okay.

8 (Laughter.)

9 MR. HUBER: And peel out pump and motor

10 that's got the better efficiency.

11 MS. WIDDER: Okay. Okay.

12 MR. HUBER: We're not worried about

13 that.

14 MR. POWERS: We don't want minimum

15 efficiency, you want the better efficiency.

16 MR. HUBER: No, I don't want --

17 (Laughter.)

18 MS. WIDDER: Oh, my god. Okay. Yes.

19 Yes.

20 MR. HUBER: No. We're setting the

21 standards here; right?

22 (Laughter.)
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1 MS. WIDDER: Yes. Yeah.

2 MR. POTTS: So let me take a stab at --

3 MS. WIDDER: Okay. Great. That would

4 be excellent.

5 MR. BROOKMAN: Doug Potts. Please,

6 Doug.

7 MR. POTTS: And I may be off base, but I

8 -- so I got a little bit confused by something

9 that was said by Lucas before lunch, and so I

10 talked to him when we broke for lunch, and it

11 helped give me some clarity, and so I'm going to

12 try to reiterate some of that and maybe that's

13 helpful. Because when Lucas said we're regulating

14 the pump only, I think my understanding so far,

15 since we have these three scenarios -- pump; pump

16 motor; pump, motor, controls -- I thought the

17 regulation was going to cover, well, if you're

18 going to supply just a pump, then you have to meet

19 a certain standard; if you're going to supply a

20 pump and motor, you have to meet another standard;

21 you have to -- to do the third option, you have to

22 -- and what Lucas was explaining to me is, no, the
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1 intent is not to create a secondary standard for

2 motors, which are already regulated, or the

3 standard for VFDs, the intent is to improve the

4 efficiency of pumps but also recognize that if

5 you, as a manufacturer, are supplying a pump with

6 a better efficiency motor or supplying it with a

7 better efficiency motor and/or a VFD, then you

8 sort of essentially get credit for that in the

9 math. And then so the various options I think

10 that Sarah was presenting this morning are

11 different -- are showing those different

12 mathematical methodologies for calculating that.

13 And so we can argue over the weightings and stuff

14 like that.

15 So, Sarah, correct me if I'm wrong. I

16 think what your intent to do was to show using

17 those proposed or suggested methodologies, how

18 does the math come out; right?

19 MS. WIDDER: That was it.

20 MR. POTTS: And so your intent with this

21 table is not to compare what's more efficient, a

22 bare pump or a bare pump with a VFD, your intent
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1 is to compare the mathematical options; right?

2 MS. WIDDER: Mm-hmm.

3 MR. POTTS: And to see how they play

4 out. Did I --

5 MS. WIDDER: Yeah.

6 MR. POTTS: So is that -- hopefully that

7 better clarifies what I think she was trying to

8 do.

9 MR. BROOKMAN: And following Greg Case's

10 statement yesterday that you want some of this

11 detail, I believe, Greg, you were saying that, for

12 example, if you had a minimally compliant pump and

13 you, as a manufacturer, thought it was on the edge

14 of being compliant or meeting the standard, then

15 you could pair it with a more efficient motor, and

16 you would know, as a manufacturer, that you're in

17 the safe zone; right? That was your logic

18 yesterday. Just to follow on what Doug said. I'm

19 not putting words in your mouth.

20 MR. CASE: I don't know if that was me,

21 but yeah. I'm following you.

22 (Laughter.)
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1 MR. BROOKMAN: So where are we now?

2 Let's let these guys consider what's up here.

3 MR. ROSENSTOCK: She's still changing

4 things.

5 MS. WIDDER: Yep. Nope. I'm going to

6 stop changing now. I'm done. I just wanted to

7 make it so we could get them all on the same page

8 and they would have the same order. So there you

9 go.

10 MR. BROOKMAN: So Paul Lin.

11 MR. LIN: I'm Paul with Regal. I just

12 want to clarify. You have 93 percent? We're

13 talking a 60-horse, 4-pole. Are we looking at the

14 NEMA 12-12 table?

15 MS. WIDDER: We're looking at Table 3.

16 It's for open premium efficiency --

17 MR. LIN: So that would be 95.

18 MS. WIDDER: Oh, no, not premium

19 efficiency, it's a DOE minimum standard for a 4-

20 pole, 60-horse open --

21 MR. LIN: Which are premium.

22 MS. WIDDER: I don't know. I --
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1 MR. ROSENSTOCK: It should be the

2 standard now. They bumped it up, the minimum --

3 Steve Rosenstock, EEI. The standards went up in

4 2010 and DOE is doing another rule where they're

5 probably going to go up again in 2016 or 2017.

6 MS. WIDDER: This is what I just looked

7 up in the CFR I found online.

8 MR. BROOKMAN: So what is the number?

9 MS. WIDDER: It was 93.6.

10 MR. BROOKMAN: Thank you.

11 MR. POWERS: So, Sarah, a question.

12 MR. BROOKMAN: Chuck Powers.

13 MR. POWERS: Again, good data, so just

14 help me out. So the first line up there, which is

15 Row 4, it says "bare pump," so that's literally

16 bare pump as we would see it. Like on the 40.6

17 spec, you would put it on the test stand, whether

18 you want to put a motor on it or string gauge or

19 whatever you do, that's just the factor for the

20 bare pump.

21 MS. WIDDER: Correct.

22 MR. POWERS: Okay. Then the next one
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1 down is motor plus minimum efficiency. Help me

2 from layman's terms. Is that the DOE --

3 MS. WIDDER: Yep.

4 MR. POWERS: Okay. So could we say DOE

5 motor or something?

6 UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: DOE minimum?

7 MR. POWERS: DOE minimum or something?

8 MR. ROSENSTOCK: DOE full-load

9 efficiency.

10 MR. POWERS: Okay. Whatever the right

11 layman -- just to help me. Okay.

12 And then the next one down is pump and

13 motor. What's the definition of that motor?

14 MS. WIDDER: 95 percent efficient.

15 MS. WILLIAMS: That's just an example,

16 though.

17 MR. HUBER: Is that premium?

18 MS. WIDDER: An example. It's an

19 example.

20 MR. POWERS: Okay. Okay. So say --

21 MS. WIDDER: It's a pump plus motor,

22 your motor, whatever motor.
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1 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Higher efficiency

2 motor.

3 MR. POWERS: Okay. So say 95 percent

4 example motor or something so we know what that

5 means.

6 MS. WIDDER: Okay.

7 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Higher efficiency

8 motor. It's a higher efficiency motor than --

9 MR. HUBER: Yeah, that's it.

10 MR. POWERS: But I think the factor she

11 has will get into the calculation later to know

12 what it is. That's all. Okay.

13 And then the pump motor control, what

14 values were given on that motor and that control?

15 MS. WIDDER: Same exact motor as in the

16 higher efficiency motor --

17 MR. POWERS: Right.

18 MS. WIDDER: -- and the control is a VFD

19 in this case.

20 MR. POWERS: So you've picked a number

21 for that, I guess.

22 MS. WIDDER: Right.
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1 MR. POWERS: Okay.

2 MS. WIDDER: So in essence --

3 MR. POWERS: In that former you had

4 before, you had a nice set of numbers in there.

5 MS. WIDDER: Right. And so if you

6 wanted more details, Chuck, the higher efficiency

7 motor and the controls, all those assumptions,

8 it's exactly the same as what I presented this

9 morning.

10 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay.

11 MR. POWERS: Well, we're seeing it the

12 same day, I'm just trying to --

13 MS. WIDDER: Yeah. Yeah. No. Just if

14 you in reference want to go back.

15 MR. POWERS: So help me out from a

16 practical sense. So if Doug -- I'm going to use

17 Doug again -- if Doug buys a bare pump from us, we

18 would have to -- depending on what we end up

19 agreeing on, the load, weighting, and all that, we

20 would end up having to meet -- the best example is

21 Line 4, those numbers in red. If he buys a bare

22 pump, that's what we have to meet. And we haven't
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1 agreed on this yet, but I'm saying --

2 MS. WIDDER: That's what we're

3 discussing right now.

4 MS. WILLIAMS: So I want to clarify,

5 though, that what we've been proposing this whole

6 time is not Line 4, it's Line 5. Line 4 we just

7 made up right now because, you know, there was a

8 little bit lack of clarity, but what we've been

9 proposing the whole time is that your scenario is

10 Line 5 where you test your bare pump and you add a

11 standard motor calculation to it.

12 MR. POWERS: I have no problem. Okay.

13 So but I'm saying if there is a user out there

14 that buys a bare pump in the world, which they do,

15 and literally replacing one out there or whatever,

16 it would be cognizant of that first line by

17 definition.

18 MS. WILLIAMS: No. No.

19 MS. WIDDER: It would be the cell I have

20 my cursor on right now.

21 UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: Line 5.

22 MS. WIDDER: Yeah.
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1 MR. ADIN: Let me clarify something.

2 For the purposes of complying with a standard, the

3 standard would be based upon an assumption that it

4 uses the minimum efficiency motor, so the only

5 variable there, if you're in fact using the

6 minimum efficiency motor, the only thing that

7 would actually have to be improved to meet the

8 standard is the pump, the bare pump.

9 MR. POWERS: But if the existing motor

10 is not a high efficiency motor --

11 UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: It doesn't

12 matter.

13 MS. WILLIAMS: We don't care what the

14 existing motor is.

15 MR. HUBER: Because at that point you're

16 not shipping it. It's what we sell -- right? --

17 before it's shipped.

18 MS. WIDDER: It's what you sell. Yep.

19 MR. HUBER: I understand. I understand

20 it now.

21 MS. WIDDER: Okay.

22 MR. ADIN: Okay. Yeah.
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1 MR. HUBER: It was just nomenclature

2 with me.

3 MS. WIDDER: Okay. Okay.

4 MR. ADIN: And just to make one -- Lucas

5 Adin --

6 MS. WIDDER: Maybe that will be better.

7 MS. WILLIAMS: (Off mike.)

8 MR. ADIN: Yeah. The bare pump thing is

9 actually slightly misleading because the way that

10 we've constructed this metric, that would actually

11 assume that you have a 100 percent efficient

12 driver.

13 MR. HUBER: Yeah, that's true.

14 MR. ADIN: Realistically it's not

15 accurate.

16 MR. HUBER: I agree.

17 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Let's be a little

18 systematic about this.

19 Meg.

20 MS. WALTNER: Yeah. Well, I was just

21 going to sort of get at what Lucas was getting at

22 there, is that what we were looking at is the pump
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1 alone is basically the shaft power -- right? --

2 without any sort of motor. And in order to look

3 at the bare pump on a sort of wire-to-water basis

4 in a way, we're just dividing that by a standard

5 motor to get this other rating value --

6 MS. WIDDER: Exactly.

7 MS. WALTNER: -- which is what it would

8 be compared on. Okay.

9 MS. WIDDER: Yep. That's exactly in

10 essence what we're doing.

11 MR. BROOKMAN: So did everybody get

12 that, or should I have Meg repeat that?

13 (No audible response.)

14 MR. BROOKMAN: I think they got it.

15 Al.

16 MR. HUBER: What we're really

17 considering here -- right? -- and what we proposed

18 is what we're calling a bare pump, which is a pump

19 and an inefficient motor and a higher efficient

20 motor, and then over here using the load factor of

21 25, 50, 75, and 100 for the control scheme, that

22 certainly shows a much improvement on the control
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1 side.

2 MR. ECKMAN: Yeah, I --

3 MR. HUBER: You might want to do the

4 inverse of these so that it --

5 MR. ECKMAN: -- for simplicity --

6 MR. BROOKMAN: Tom Eckman.

7 MR. ECKMAN: -- using the same motor

8 efficiency and only changing the VFD because we're

9 picking up two benefits there in that last line.

10 So just if that was the DOE minimum efficiency

11 motor plus the VFD, then we would see what the VFD

12 impact was alone.

13 MR. HUBER: And I think that's what you

14 ought to do.

15 MR. ECKMAN: Yeah. I think -- so that

16 there is just one change going on at a time to

17 keep track of.

18 MS. WIDDER: Right. Okay. So the other

19 thing -- so the reason I assumed a high-efficiency

20 motor in this case -- but that's a good point --

21 is that in order to sell a pump with a VFD, it

22 also must be sold with a motor. You would sort of
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1 -- they're incremental.

2 MR. ECKMAN: Yeah. I was just trying to

3 isolate on the effect of the VFD.

4 MS. WIDDER: Oh, right. Yep.

5 MR. ECKMAN: I understand what would

6 happen.

7 MS. WIDDER: Right.

8 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Steve Rosenstock.

9 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Steve Rosenstock, EEI.

10 But it could be sold with a standard motor.

11 MS. WIDDER: Right.

12 MR. ROSENSTOCK: It can be easily sold

13 with a standard motor if that's what you want to

14 do.

15 MS. WIDDER: It can. It can. Right.

16 Right. We are --

17 MR. ROSENSTOCK: So that's another

18 design option that still would be I'll say under

19 the baseline P -- you know, it would still meet

20 the requirement. My thing, I'm getting back to the

21 DOE minimum efficiency motor, and again I still

22 have to think back to -- you know, you're saying a
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1 4-pole ODP and a certain RPM. Well, what if they

2 use a different pole or what if they play around

3 that table where there could be differences within

4 each category? I should get the table, but

5 sometimes if you change the number of poles, there

6 are different minimum efficiency standards.

7 MS. WIDDER: Right. So this is --

8 MR. ROSENSTOCK: They're slight, but,

9 you know, at the minimum, they could make a

10 difference depending on the number of poles, and

11 then especially if you change horsepower. Then

12 the other thing, again, if you go to a higher

13 horsepower. Again, I'm trying to conceptualize

14 it.

15 MR. BROOKMAN: We're still trying to

16 grasp the basics here.

17 MS. WIDDER: Right.

18 MR. BROOKMAN: We're not punching holes

19 for specifics yet, we're not.

20 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Too far ahead. Sorry.

21 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Paul Lin.

22 MR. LIN: I'm all set.
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1 MR. BROOKMAN: You're all set. Okay.

2 Let's just let these gentlemen --

3 Do you want to -- Al, do you and your

4 folks want to caucus? Do you need some time to

5 think this through?

6 MR. POWERS: We're not voting today, so

7 I'm okay.

8 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay.

9 MR. POWERS: Because we have a lot of

10 calculations to do. Once we get the final sheets

11 to understand what --

12 MR. BROOKMAN: Yeah. We're not voting

13 today, however, Alison, and previously Sarah, were

14 trying to get some sense of, yeah, we think this

15 is okay so that they can do their analysis.

16 Al.

17 MR. HUBER: We discussed that amongst

18 ourselves, Doug, and we think we can cut them

19 loose with this. If the government is okay and

20 the NGOs are okay and everybody else is okay, we

21 don't see any reason to -- but we're going to go

22 back and have our people run through it, and we
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1 would like to have some of these screenshots or

2 something before we leave.

3 MR. BROOKMAN: We're clear. This is not

4 a decision. This is not like a binding decision

5 or anything like that, but this is a signal that

6 is going to allow the analysis to proceed. And

7 then will someone restate clearly what you're okay

8 with?

9 Al, do you want to restate clearly or

10 should I get one of these --

11 (Laughter.)

12 MS. WILLIAMS: Can I state it clearly?

13 MR. BROOKMAN: Alison, you state it

14 clearly.

15 MS. WILLIAMS: Okay.

16 MR. BROOKMAN: Alison is going to state

17 clearly what we hope that all members present

18 think this is a sensible way to initiate the

19 analysis.

20 MR. POWERS: Can I interrupt for one

21 second?

22 MR. BROOKMAN: Sure, Chuck.
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1 MR. POWERS: Before lunch, Al made a

2 recommendation (off mike).

3 MR. BROOKMAN: Yeah.

4 MR. POWERS: 75, 100, and 110.

5 MR. BROOKMAN: Yeah.

6 MR. POWERS: Right?

7 MR. HUBER: For the pump and motor.

8 MS. WIDDER: Yep.

9 MR. POWERS: Pump and motor.

10 MR. HUBER: And the 25, 50, 75, 100 for

11 the pump, motor, and control.

12 MS. WIDDER: Yep.

13 MR. POWERS: So why don't we eliminate

14 the 50 to 110?

15 MR. HUBER: Yeah.

16 MR. POWERS: Just get rid of it?

17 MR. HUBER: It's not part of the

18 proposal and the rest of that.

19 MR. POWERS: And then somehow define

20 only numbers under the -- what I heard Alison say,

21 the ones in yellow are the only ones that count

22 (off mike). Right?
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1 MR. BROOKMAN: Hold on.

2 MS. WIDDER: I'm not going to delete

3 them. Don't worry. I'm just going to turn them

4 white.

5 MR. POWERS: I know, but I'm just trying

6 to understand what --

7 MR. HUBER: Yeah, that's it.

8 MS. WILLIAMS: Does anybody else want to

9 look at any of the numbers, or is everybody okay

10 with those?

11 MR. ROSENSTOCK: I would like to leave

12 those other numbers in. Steve Rosenstock, EEI. I

13 think those numbers should stay in for now.

14 MR. BROOKMAN: Let's leave the numbers

15 in, but let's just be clear. And I thought Alison

16 was going to restate what we thought, what we

17 hope, the working group would say, yep, in a

18 preliminary sense, this is okay for the analysis

19 to proceed.

20 Alison.

21 MS. WILLIAMS: I mean, I think Al pretty

22 much just said it, but --
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1 MR. BROOKMAN: Do you want to come up

2 here and point since you have that?

3 MS. WILLIAMS: Yeah. So we'll just move

4 forward in the analysis with sort of the equation

5 construct we've been showing, and with these

6 yellow cells. So for pumps and pumps plus motors,

7 75, 100, and 110, equal weighting. And for pumps

8 plus motors plus controls, 20, 50, 75, and 100,

9 equal weighting. That is the pump manufacturers'

10 proposal. So I will just check and see if anyone

11 else has concerns about that.

12 MR. BROOKMAN: Steve Rosenstock.

13 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Steve Rosenstock, EEI.

14 Again, just looking at these numbers -- and,

15 again, Sarah, thank you so much -- there is such a

16 huge difference on that pump plus higher

17 efficiency motor plus VFD, that number -- that

18 difference is -- you know, it's an order of

19 magnitude. You go from 21 to 43. And again I

20 understand why, it's because of the thing of the

21 drive, but then it's not -- in my mind, it's not

22 apples to apples, you know, it's not -- you know,
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1 you're saying here is one test condition and

2 here's a relative efficiency at 75, 100, 110, and

3 then, oh, you're adding one more adder onto the

4 product and we're going to do two more test

5 conditions, and it's -- how do I say this? -- it's

6 not -- you're not doing -- you're kind of saying,

7 well, the miles per gallon are going to be at 50

8 miles an hour for this car and then 20 miles per

9 hour for this car. No, hold on a second here.

10 MS. WIDDER: Right.

11 MR. ECKMAN: Highway and city. That's

12 what we have here.

13 UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: Or you've

14 got an accelerator in the car or not an

15 accelerator.

16 (Laughter.)

17 UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: You're

18 riding 70 miles an hour on a straight line, and

19 I'm going start, stop, start, stop, start, stop?

20 It's highway and city. They're different test

21 conditions. One, we're talking about a variable

22 speed output here and one we're not, so they're
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1 different.

2 MR. BROOKMAN: Let's let Al.

3 Go ahead.

4 MR. HUBER: To help clarify this, the

5 only way you could do -- if you wanted a true

6 comparison of the VFD type situation, you would

7 have to run a test with the same motor and pump,

8 throttle it to those conditions, take your

9 horsepowers, and then run it with a VFD without

10 throttling it and take those. And you can do

11 that, but I don't know that we want to do that

12 because I think that would be a pretty big burden.

13 MR. BROOKMAN: Greg, did you want in

14 here?

15 MR. ECKMAN: Well, if people did --

16 MR. HUBER: I mean, we could do that.

17 MR. ECKMAN: There is 21 in that line.

18 MR. HUBER: It would probably be a 21 in

19 that line.

20 MR. ECKMAN: If they throttled it.

21 MR. HUBER: No, if they didn't throttle.

22 MR. ECKMAN: Yeah, but if they took a
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1 non- VFD and tried to --

2 MR. HUBER: Oh, it would probably be the

3 40-something or 50-something.

4 MR. BROOKMAN: So that was Al and Tom,

5 Al and Tom, Al and Tom.

6 (Laughter.)

7 MR. HUBER: Sorry.

8 MR. BROOKMAN: Now Greg.

9 MR. TOWSLEY: Greg Towsley, Grundfos.

10 Steve, it's just again the highway/city

11 mileage thing, but where the change is going to

12 happen when you start looking at apples-to-apples

13 is when you have a different efficiency pump in

14 there. Instead of 21.36, it might go up to 22.5,

15 and now you have apples-to-apples and comparing

16 one pump with a different efficiency and a drive

17 and a motor versus another one with a different

18 efficiency. And it goes back to applications, is,

19 where do you want to apply the drive versus not

20 have a drive? There is going to be a one-off

21 application that all you're going to want to do is

22 that right column, and then there is the variable
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1 flow application or variable pressure application,

2 you're going to want the drive. So it's

3 completely different, city and highway.

4 UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: Yeah.

5 UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: Yeah.

6 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Right. Steve

7 Rosenstock, EEI. And I appreciate that, but this

8 does spill over into the national analysis, and if

9 you're -- how do I say it? -- you're just dealing

10 with, let's say, hundreds or thousands or millions

11 of pumps and you're assuming all of them are at 25

12 percent of BEP at some point versus the field

13 saying, well, it's only really 10 percent of them,

14 then you get quite the distortion in your eventual

15 analysis.

16 MR. BROOKMAN: Greg, follow on.

17 MR. TOWSLEY: Greg Towsley, Grundfos. I

18 believe the manufacturers included the approximate

19 number of pumps that we ship with and without

20 drives that would determine in an economic

21 analysis how much of each one gets used, I

22 believe. That's what you're talking about.
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1 MS. WILLIAMS: Yeah. This is Alison.

2 I'll just follow on. Right? Like we will have an

3 energy use analysis that will have different load

4 profiles, and some of them will be assumed to be

5 followed and some of them will be assumed to have

6 VFDs, and so it will show up in the analysis.

7 MR. BROOKMAN: Lucas, do you want in

8 here?

9 MR. ADIN: Well, maybe just to point out

10 that at least as far as calculations like national

11 energy savings are concerned, you know, you're

12 concerned most about what -- how are these pumps

13 really operated in the field? And we can only

14 kind of roughly approximate that. I think, from

15 what I've heard, and I'm sure someone will correct

16 me if I'm wrong, at least for the VFD condition or

17 situation, it's more likely you would see a range

18 of operating conditions like that compared with a

19 non-VFD type pump. So in theory, it should be

20 more representative of the way these would

21 actually be used, and so your calculations of

22 national energy use should be more representative.
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1 National energy savings, of course, would just be

2 baseline compared to the standards case, and then

3 they're both using the same assumptions anyway.

4 MR. BROOKMAN: Louis, are you in this

5 content stream?

6 MR. STARR: Um, no.

7 (Laughter.)

8 MR. STARR: That is something (off

9 mike).

10 MR. BROOKMAN: Yeah. Okay. Then Chuck

11 and then Greg.

12 MR. POWERS: So, Sarah, help me so we

13 can get this data -- right? -- so we can go back,

14 like Al way saying and talk to our (inaudible) and

15 all. In your formula -- and I haven't seen it

16 yet, you may have shown it -- do you have this

17 curve built into these numbers?

18 MS. WIDDER: Not any of the ones you're

19 looking at right now. All of these are equal

20 weighting, so there is no curve.

21 MR. POWERS: Okay. Right. But what I'm

22 trying to say is if you think the majority of the
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1 weighted value is at 60 percent, you know --

2 MS. WIDDER: Well, that's not in here.

3 MR. POWERS: Okay.

4 MS. WIDDER: Not in here.

5 MR. POWERS: I know. I'm asking. But

6 we've seen so many charts, I'm trying to

7 understand. So you've taken that out. Okay.

8 MR. BROOKMAN: Greg.

9 MR. CASE: The manufacturers also like

10 to request that the system curve that you guys use

11 doesn't go back to zero at zero flow, it uses 20

12 percent of the static -- or of -- well, of the

13 static head of the system.

14 MS. WIDDER: Okay.

15 UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: The control.

16 MR. CASE: Or it's got 20 percent of the

17 BEP head value as the static head in that system

18 curve.

19 MS. WIDDER: Okay.

20 MR. CASE: Because not all systems are

21 fully closed loops.

22 MS. WIDDER: Yep.
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1 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Let me see, Louis

2 and then Paul.

3 MR. STARR: Well, I'm kind of surprised

4 about that last one because that sort of -- if you

5 have a high static head, then a VFD is not always

6 going to make a lot of sense in the system, so I -

7 -

8 MR. CASE: It's only 20 percent.

9 MR. STARR: 20?

10 MR. CASE: So it's not a high static

11 head.

12 MR. STARR: It's not a lot? Okay. So

13 anyway, that was a side thing.

14 MR. BROOKMAN: Now back to Louis.

15 MR. STARR: One of the things that I

16 think we realize here is that we're sort of doing

17 a lot of work around to get some things.

18 Ultimately, what the best that would happen is to

19 get an MEI on the pumps and all pumps are

20 qualified for an MEI, and then you would stick

21 them into your other equations and get out an

22 energy usage that was representative. And so now
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1 we're adjusting -- in other words, the city and

2 highway, as Tom has described it, but in reality,

3 I don't know that much of it is as high a

4 percentage, we're basically saying the rating up

5 on the highway rating here of the higher BEP

6 flows, and it seems like we should maybe be using

7 some lower points.

8 So it almost seems like if we could

9 couple the efficiency of the pump from the next

10 thing of the PER, that would be the best thing,

11 but I don't think we're going to be able to do

12 that. So it seems that we're skewing the results

13 by not being able to decouple those two.

14 MS. WIDDER: Let me see if I can restate

15 your concern just to make sure I understand it.

16 Your concern is that you still want pump

17 performance represented -- pump -- bare pump -- a

18 pump sold as a bare pump or a pump sold as a bare

19 pump with a motor, you want that represented at

20 the 75, 100 percent, and 110 percent of BEP flow

21 load conditions, which is what MEI is.

22 MR. STARR: For the efficiency, but then
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1 the actual loading would be of the 25 and 50 and

2 75 percent, for the loading of the pump. So you

3 would have the efficiency as being the efficiency

4 that gets fed into the calculation for the

5 calculation of the PER. That's what I was

6 thinking would be --

7 MS. WIDDER: Perhaps we can have a

8 conversation after this. I'm not totally

9 following you, but I'll follow up afterwards.

10 MR. BROOKMAN: Paul.

11 MR. LIN: Paul Lin with Regal. Can I

12 get a clarification on Slide 9?

13 MS. WIDDER: Yes.

14 MR. BROOKMAN: But before you move on,

15 let's let -- hold on. Charlie, go ahead.

16 MR. CAPPELLINO: I have a little

17 different discussion, so let him --

18 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Go ahead then,

19 Paul.

20 MR. LIN: So on Slide 9, you have power,

21 motor, on the motor side it would be 60-

22 horsepower. Is this -- what is that power? Is it
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1 a nameplate 60-horsepower?

2 MS. WIDDER: Nameplate.

3 MR. LIN: Okay. And then we go to Slide

4 13.

5 MS. WIDDER: Is that this one?

6 MR. LIN: Yeah. And you've calculated

7 60-horsepower.

8 MS. WIDDER: So not calculated. So this

9 is getting into for this bare pump example --

10 we're in the bare pump example right now -- and

11 the first thing we did was determine our pump

12 performance. We have pump -- in this construct,

13 we have pump shaft input power at the four load

14 points, and then because we're not selling this

15 bare shaft pump with the motor in this case, we

16 don't have a motor size. We could assume

17 anything.

18 And so to ensure that everyone that's

19 selling a specific size of pump is applying the

20 same motor size algorithm, choice, for example, if

21 a manufacturer were to rate this pump and then DOE

22 were to similarly pull that pump and determine the
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1 PER rating, both the manufacturer and DOE would

2 assume the same size motor as paired with that

3 bare shaft pump for the purposes of calculating

4 this PER. And so the calculation here for that

5 sizing algorithm is to take the measured pump

6 shaft input power at 120 percent of BEP flow and

7 round up to the nearest size bin in the CFR

8 tables, which in this case was 60-horsepower.

9 MR. POWERS: Now, Sarah, this is a

10 question.

11 Hold on a second, Paul.

12 So on a 75, 1-, and 110, I could get

13 that right? No problem. But now if you go down

14 to 25 percent condition, and you've got a motor

15 that not only is a little oversized, nothing

16 wrong, it's a 50-horse versus now it's a 60, and

17 you go all the way back to the 25, you will have a

18 degradation of the efficiency of that motor

19 significantly.

20 MS. WIDDER: Right. You will.

21 MR. POWERS: And now you're a little

22 oversized, but now you're really going to be way
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1 down where it doesn't want to run, and then you

2 throw it on a VFD, which should keep it at its

3 normal load factor if it was designed right and if

4 the windings were made up to handle the heat when

5 you do a VFD, but --

6 MS. WIDDER: Right.

7 MR. POWERS: But that would worry me,

8 that's all. I'm just --

9 MS. WIDDER: Right. And so that's

10 exactly the reason we're not considering that in

11 this case.

12 So, Paul, did you have anything else?

13 MR. LIN: You had it on the chart, the

14 25 percent.

15 MS. WIDDER: Only with the VFD.

16 MR. BROOKMAN: Charlie, you're next.

17 MR. LIN: Hold on a second.

18 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay.

19 MR. LIN: Maybe I need to run through

20 the calculation, but could you get into a

21 situation where on a bare pump basis you're

22 estimating 60-horsepower, but then once you
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1 include a pump plus the motor and then you

2 actually had a physical motor horsepower,

3 nameplate horsepower, of 50-horsepower, then is

4 that going to be a apples-to-apples comparison if

5 you're trying to compare, hey, I hade a bare pump

6 efficiency of this, and then because I have

7 undersized my motor, I've improved my PER

8 essentially?

9 MS. WIDDER: So the motors -- I mean,

10 it's true that the motor size that would be used

11 for the pump and motor case will be essentially

12 the job motor, whatever motor that pump is sold

13 into the marketplace with, but that won't

14 introduce variability because whatever pump and

15 motor combination the manufacturer is certifying

16 is the same pump and motor combination that DOE

17 would test or a third-party lab would test. It's

18 always going to be the same pump and motor

19 combination. If you were significantly oversized

20 or undersized based on our assumption, that would

21 change the comparison. Perhaps you would get more

22 or less credit for putting a more efficient motor
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1 on.

2 There was a table that I did -- I don't

3 know where my table went -- what I looked at,

4 what's the impact of different size motors? Well,

5 this is just looking at loading and not really

6 efficiency.

7 UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: Right.

8 Right.

9 MS. WIDDER: I could look at efficiency,

10 but, for example, if you did a 75 percent

11 horsepower motor on this same pump, your loading

12 on the motor would be between 40 and 67 percent as

13 opposed to the 60-horse case, where it was between

14 50 and 80 percent. And depending on how the

15 efficiency losses came out, it just wouldn't -- it

16 would be the same -- it would be the same in both

17 cases.

18 MS. WILLIAMS: Let me -- sorry.

19 MS. WIDDER: Yeah. Do you want to try?

20 MS. WILLIAMS: We actually think there

21 might be an issue with that, and there are some

22 potential ways to resolve it, and one of them
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1 could be that you rate with a certain size motor

2 even though -- you know, if you're selling it with

3 a premium undersized motor, you could potentially

4 rate with a premium regularly sized motor. I

5 don't know what the answer is. It is a good

6 point. We might have to think about it. And we

7 don't have the answer right now, but we have

8 definitely written it down to consider.

9 MR. BROOKMAN: So let me just kind of

10 interrupt.

11 Charlie, I know, Charlie, you're packing

12 up here, so --

13 MR. CAPPELLINO: Yeah, I want to leave

14 in about 10 minutes.

15 MR. BROOKMAN: Yeah.

16 MR. CAPPELLINO: Charlie Cappellino. So

17 from a practical standpoint, what I keep going

18 through in my mind here is that we, as industry,

19 are going to have to meet the European MEI

20 standards regardless. So that's basically going to

21 drive our businesses to hit certain MEI

22 requirements, period. And I guess in our world,
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1 our preference would be again alignment with the

2 MEI standards, would make certain practical

3 implementation of this more readily done.

4 So the second point I wanted to make is

5 most of us sell our products in a modular fashion

6 where you mix and match a bare pump with a motor

7 with a drive, so the practicality of saying, well,

8 look, I'm only going to ever sell this pump or

9 these sizes of pumps with a premium efficiency

10 motor, it's really kind of, in my mind, it's kind

11 of a false expectation, because if you're in

12 manufacturing, you basically have to have all your

13 bare pumps meet the minimum standard anyways, and

14 so if you kind of -- and Louis said it earlier,

15 you kind of want to -- you almost have to decouple

16 the two to some extent and say, look, my bare pump

17 has to meet a certain MEI level, the Europeans

18 have already dictated that, the timing is already

19 in place, we ought to just take advantage of the

20 fact that that's done and find a way to articulate

21 an advantage in the marketplace of using a VFD,

22 but trying to wrap that back into a regulation I
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1 think is just complicating everything that we

2 really need to do here. I think we want to

3 accomplish both.

4 I mean, we have to hit the MEIs that the

5 EU put out there period, I mean, that's something

6 we've got to do, and we have to figure out a way

7 to show the savings and the advantage of drives

8 and better efficient motors, but I'm still trying

9 to figure out how the two really kind of connect

10 because it gets really messy because of the way

11 we're set up.

12 MR. BROOKMAN: Alison?

13 MR. ADIN: Well, I was just going to say

14 that I think what we put up here --

15 MR. BROOKMAN: Lucas.

16 MR. ADIN: Thanks, Doug -- is frankly

17 the best way we could think of to accomplish both

18 of those things at the same time because when we

19 actually do the analysis to set a standard,

20 effectively it will be on the basis of MEI --

21 MR. CAPPELLINO: Right.

22 MR. ADIN: -- because we're making
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1 assumptions for everything else. So we'll

2 accomplish that part, and then this construct of a

3 metric is to get at the other part.

4 MR. CAPPELLINO: I just want to

5 reinforce the point that at least my opinion is

6 that offering a pump with a premium efficiency

7 motor to say, well, that's going to allow somebody

8 to have maybe a less efficient design in the

9 marketplace probably isn't going to happen.

10 That's not a practical business scenario. And so

11 you might want to take that out of the picture a

12 little bit and say, "Well, what's the reality in

13 terms of how this is going to be implemented, how

14 manufacturers are going to roll that out in the

15 marketplace?" take that out of the picture because

16 it's probably not going to happen.

17 MS. WILLIAMS: Yeah. So this is Alison.

18 I think that's a good point, and that's not

19 something we're going to account for in our

20 analyses, we're just going to account for improved

21 pump efficiency, and we could discuss what

22 spillover things we think might happen, but that's
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1 not what we're going to go with.

2 And the other thing I just wanted to say

3 in response, too, is I think what maybe would be a

4 good exercise for those of you concerned about how

5 MEI translates into PER is that when we sort of

6 agree on the general construct and load points and

7 whatever, that you could actually do the exercise

8 of looking at your pump's MEI, translating the MEI

9 to PER, and see how you fare. And if we don't --

10 Dan and I have looked at it a little, and there

11 are some -- you know, it's not one for one, some

12 pass, some fail, but it's not a huge -- we don't

13 see it as a huge impact, but if it's something you

14 guys looked at and you were like, "Oh, well, I

15 look pretty good under MEI, but for some reason

16 when it translates to PER, I look terrible,"

17 that's something that we could talk about.

18 And I just want to add that one of the

19 other sort of -- the big difference between MEI

20 and PER is just that you have weights at different

21 -- okay, well, this is the old one.

22 (Laughter.)
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1 MS. WILLIAMS: We have a little bit of

2 lever in where we set the standard because you can

3 -- in addition to the weights of the different

4 load points, the MEI goes into the pump efficiency

5 at BEP, and we are also setting target levels at

6 the part-load, so we can also play with the target

7 levels to get you something like closer to MEI.

8 So I don't have an answer right now, I just want

9 to say that it's something that might be worth

10 exploring, looking at the data, and see what it

11 looks like.

12 MR. BROOKMAN: Arnie, go ahead.

13 MR. SDANO: Arnie Sdano, Pentair. If we

14 could switch over back to Slide 16, Sarah, if

15 that's possible.

16 MS. WIDDER: Mm-hmm. That's possible.

17 MR. SDANO: Yesterday, the statement was

18 made that a pump manufacturer is always going to

19 benefit when he tests a product, including the

20 motor. And I've just got a comment on that, that

21 we frequently do string tests where we will put a

22 torque meter in between the motor and the pump,
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1 but we will measure the power input into the VFD,

2 and, therefore, we know what happens to the VFD

3 and the motor efficiency combined in comparison to

4 what the pump is seeing.

5 And so often I'm glad that we drew the

6 line through the upper limit, you know, to

7 emphasize the losses because the motor

8 manufacturer doesn't extract from their efficiency

9 calculations the seal losses, the bearing losses,

10 and that creates some problems for us. I don't

11 know what's going to happen on the VFD, but I

12 think for the most part, their efficiency rating

13 right now is based on full speed/full load.

14 And so we see typically about a 2-

15 percent loss that isn't being defined in the

16 current standards when we test a string test, that

17 it's between the motor and the VFD, and we're

18 losing a substantial amount of efficiency, and we

19 end up having to make it up on the pump end

20 because our users don't understand those extra

21 losses for thrust bearings and seals and other

22 things that are occurring that all the individual
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1 component standards don't address all the losses.

2 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Thank you.

3 Greg Case.

4 MR. CASE: Yeah, this is a question I

5 guess back to Alison. You said we could plug this

6 data into the PER. And we need to have a target

7 value for MEI to be able to do that. So is there

8 a value that you would want us to try to do this

9 at?

10 MS. WILLIAMS: Yeah. I mean, so Dan and

11 I were talking about that -- right? -- because we

12 have to set levels to look at in our analysis. So

13 if that's something you guys want to do right now,

14 we can talk about it. We were probably, without

15 further input, going to do like 10, 25, 40, 55,

16 70, and max tech.

17 MS. WIDDER: Some levels.

18 MS. WILLIAMS: We can choose whatever

19 levels you guys want to look at.

20 MS. WIDDER: And I think the other point

21 relative to that --

22 MR. BROOKMAN: 10, 25, 40, 70 --
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1 MS. WILLIAMS: 55.

2 MR. BROOKMAN: 55 and max tech.

3 MS. WIDDER: 70. 70.

4 MR. BROOKMAN: And max tech.

5 MS. WIDDER: Yep. The other point

6 relative to that is to provide those numbers, we

7 have to agree on what the construct is.

8 MS. WILLIAMS: Mm-hmm.

9 MS. WIDDER: Right.

10 (Laughter.)

11 MS. WIDDER: So if we could get there --

12 MS. WILLIAMS: And I also want to point

13 out, Greg, if you're taking notes, that the other

14 thing we have to decide in setting target levels

15 and what these other ones are, Dan and I have

16 currently calculated median percentages at each of

17 these points, but we can change them in you want

18 us to.

19 MS. WIDDER: I think let's have that

20 discussion at a like next time.

21 MS. WILLIAMS: Yeah. I'm just throwing

22 it out for him, so --
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1 MS. WIDDER: Okay. Right.

2 MS. WILLIAMS: But let's get this

3 resolved. Yeah.

4 (Laughter.)

5 MS. WIDDER: So, and I think at the last

6 meeting I started to do this and it took a lot

7 longer than I thought because of all of the

8 variability that still existed around the metric.

9 So I started to make a spreadsheet that we can

10 send out to the group that you can plug in flow at

11 BEP and shaft input power or efficiency at BEP and

12 whatever other load points we decide, and it will

13 calculate the PER for you in a number of different

14 permutations. The reason it took me so long is

15 because there are still so many possible

16 permutations out there, I would look up tables

17 everywhere.

18 So if we can minimize the number of

19 things we want to look at, I can send out that

20 spreadsheet and then pump manufacturers can put

21 their pump data in and you can look at how the PER

22 would calculate from that using the template.
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1 MR. BROOKMAN: Greg.

2 MR. CASE: I think that would be great.

3 So I don't have to frantically go back and trace

4 everything through a spreadsheet, could we get the

5 formulas used for each one of those?

6 MS. WIDDER: Yeah. I'll get --

7 MR. CASE: I mean, there is going to

8 have to be a guide document with it.

9 MS. WIDDER: Yeah, there is actually an

10 instruction sheet on the front with the

11 calculations, and it's --

12 MR. CASE: Okay. All right.

13 MS. WIDDER: Yeah. I'm with you.

14 MR. BROOKMAN: Steve Rosenstock.

15 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Steve Rosenstock, EEI.

16 I know we're kind of switching back from the

17 presentation to the spreadsheet here. Would there

18 be a way -- I know we've just been using the 60-

19 horsepower -- would there be a way to kind of show

20 these numbers for I'll just say a smaller pump?

21 Again, I'm just going to throw a number out.

22 You're going from -- and you just show this for a
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1 7.5-horsepower motor and then a 10-horsepower

2 motor for the same --

3 MS. WIDDER: Yes. So I --

4 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Because I'm really

5 curious to see, suppose, well, it only costs me 20

6 bucks to go to a 10-horsepower motor versus $200

7 for the drive, I just throw in an oversized motor,

8 boom, I'm done. I just want to see if that --

9 would that be -- is that -- could that be one of

10 the ultimate consequences?

11 MS. WIDDER: Right. So I'm with you,

12 and at the next meeting, I would love to bring

13 example calculations for a few other sizes of

14 pumps, or we could look at how it looked for a

15 couple different pumps, but I didn't do that this

16 time because we need to first agree on a couple

17 other more fundamental things. Like we can agree

18 on this no denominator or maybe even just no

19 denominator and hydraulic power and then the

20 weightings that we have highlighted in blue up

21 here. Then I can do that for a lot more pumps.

22 You know, it's just you get an exponentially
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1 growing number of calculations you have to do.

2 MR. ROSENSTOCK: And another thing again

3 -- Steve Rosenstock, EEI -- you know, again we're

4 talking about a minimum efficiency motor, and

5 again, just because I'm involved with the motor

6 rulemakings, it's a matter of you pick the motor,

7 you know, it's 93.6, but in that open drip proof,

8 that horsepower range, it could range from 93.4 to

9 93.8, for example. And if there is -- especially

10 for the smaller motors, what if you're going with

11 a different -- you know, I don't know why you

12 would go with a TEFC motor; that might have

13 another different standard; efficiency at that

14 horsepower might be different as well. And then,

15 God forbid, but suppose you were going to use a

16 non- regulated motor for whatever reason for

17 whatever application, then what do you do?

18 I mean, I'm just trying to think this

19 out down the road here in terms of what if there

20 are these other possibilities that we didn't think

21 of necessarily? I'm trying to think that --

22 MR. BROOKMAN: Greg Case.
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1 MR. CASE: On the non-regulated motor,

2 that spurred a thought in my head. On our

3 submersibles, we have non-regulated motors, so we

4 would have a little trouble with our motor-pump

5 construct here.

6 MS. WIDDER: Right. So that was the

7 reason that we have also discussed a testing

8 option or maybe a full wire-to-water test being

9 required for some classes of pumps as opposed to a

10 calculation. So the potential back to -- there's

11 a slide somewhere -- the option exists that we

12 could allow testing or calculations for all

13 categories of pumps, or we could only have

14 calculation for some categories of pumps, some

15 equipment classes, some types, end suction, free16 mounted, or whatever, and then only wire-to-water

17 testing for some other types of pumps. These are

18 all options.

19 MR. ADIN: Let me actually make a

20 clarification on that just really quick.

21 MS. WIDDER: Yeah.

22 MR. BROOKMAN: Lucas Adin.
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1 MR. ADIN: So for any one of these

2 cases, we won't have one where there is only a

3 calculation and that's the only way to do it. We

4 always provide a test, so --

5 MR. CASE: Well, and that makes sense

6 there because you're not going to be able to

7 decouple the two of them really. So in that

8 situation I brought up, that makes sense, so --

9 MS. WIDDER: Mm-hmm.

10 MR. BROOKMAN: Paul Lin, are you all

11 set?

12 (No audible response.)

13 MR. BROOKMAN: Yes, Meg.

14 MS. WALTNER: Greg, I have a follow-up

15 question for you. So for the vertical turbine

16 submersible category, are all of those pumps sold

17 with motors that are submersible?

18 MR. CASE: I'll defer to the people who

19 make them, but I believe so.

20 MR. BROOKMAN: Greg?

21 MR. TOWSLEY: Greg Towsley, Grundfos.

22 Repeat it one more time, Meg?
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1 MS. WALTNER: Whether all of the VSO,

2 the vertical turbine submersible pumps, are sold

3 with motors, with submersible motors, and agree

4 that --

5 MR. TOWSLEY: (Off mike.)

6 MS. WALTNER: Yeah.

7 MR. TOWSLEY: It's like anything. The

8 motor could be okay and the weld pump could become

9 damaged.

10 MR. BROOKMAN: Greg, get that closer to

11 you, please.

12 MR. TOWSLEY: It may be a matter of just

13 replacing the pump end or repairing the pump or

14 the pump end. So it's possible that it can go

15 out, but all of them are -- they all have to be

16 tested with it.

17 MR. CASE: I was going to say, as a new

18 sale, not replacement parts, they're all going out

19 with a motor; right?

20 MR. TOWSLEY: We don't know.

21 MR. BROOKMAN: So that was Greg and then

22 back to Greg. That was Greg. And now to Arnie.
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1 MR. SDANO: Arnie Sdano, Pentair. I

2 would say that plus 95 percent will be shipped

3 with the motor, but there are the odd

4 circumstances where customers on larger ones will

5 buy their own motor. But I should point out also

6 that the current draft of 40.6 mandates that if

7 you're testing for certification of pump

8 efficiency, you have to test that submersible

9 vertical turbine pump with a calibrated

10 submersible motor.

11 MR. BROOKMAN: Mark Handzel.

12 MR. HANDZEL: I'm not sure if I

13 understood your question. I thought you were

14 asking if those are sold with non-NEMA, non15 regulated motors. Was that your question?

16 MS. WALTNER: That's sort of what I was

17 getting at. I asked whether they were sold with

18 motors period.

19 MR. HANDZEL: Okay. So, I mean, like a

20 lot of stuff in that category we don't necessarily

21 ship it with a motor, we sell it to a distributor,

22 and he buys all the motors, and then he can pick
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1 and choose which one he puts on it. Okay? So a

2 motor has to be with it. We can certainly do a

3 wire-to-water test, as Arnie just explained, with

4 a calibrated motor. Okay? All right? And that's

5 --

6 MS. WALTNER: Okay. And are they

7 generally being paired with non-NEMA motors?

8 MR. HANDZEL: They're non-NEMA motors

9 typically because we make them. Okay? They're

10 our motors. And again, there are going to be some

11 exceptions. I can't speak for everybody. Like in

12 our case --

13 MS. WILLIAMS: So in general,

14 submersible motors are not a covered DOE product.

15 Yeah.

16 MR. BROOKMAN: Yeah. Chuck.

17 MR. POWERS: And to further that, there

18 are, if I can get this right, there are more

19 submersible pump wet end manufacturers than there

20 are motor guys. Okay? So that means several of us

21 also act as OEMs for motors that sell to other

22 pump guys. Okay? Now, in the world out there of
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1 submersibles, generally speaking, the pump will

2 have problems before the motor does. There's a

3 lot of them that come out of the hole and they put

4 a new pump in with the same motor, but, you know,

5 it just depends on the application and what goes

6 on. Right?

7 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Thank you. Now, I

8 thought before this last exchange, that Sarah and

9 Alison were working their way toward some other

10 items they wish to close in on and resolve.

11 MS. WILLIAMS: And I should note that we

12 only have an hour left, so if we can focus on

13 resolving those items, that would be fantastic.

14 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. So which items are

15 they, Alison?

16 MS. WIDDER: So the items are, basically

17 what construct of metric do we want to move

18 forward with for our analysis? And I am just

19 going to hide everything else and say -- and ask a

20 question of the committee -- I mean, if we can

21 move forward with our analysis with 75, 100, and

22 110 percent of BEP flow and equal weighting for no
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1 denominator -- with no denominator for the pump

2 and motor case, and then changing -- oh, that's

3 not what I wanted, there we go -- changing the

4 load points to 25 percent, 50 percent, 75 percent,

5 and 100 percent of BEP flow and equal weighting

6 for the case where a bare pump is sold with

7 controls, which was the manufacturers' suggestion.

8 And I just made the assumption that we're moving

9 forward with no denominator because we've been

10 talking about that for a long time. The other

11 options we had on here were a number of different

12 denominators and the inverse of this, which makes

13 higher better.

14 MR. BROOKMAN: Hang on.

15 Lucas?

16 MR. ADIN: Well, this is actually just a

17 general question for my own understanding, not to

18 question the weighting points that we've been

19 talking about, but I was just wondering why you

20 wouldn't do the VFD case at 110. Is there a

21 particular reason to exclude that rating point in

22 that case?
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1 UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: I was

2 thinking that same thing.

3 MR. BROOKMAN: Al Huber. Oh, Greg

4 Towsley.

5 MR. TOWSLEY: Greg Towsley, Grundfos.

6 Simply, 25, 50, 75, and 100 are the four points in

7 the EU EEI index that they're looking at, is where

8 those numbers came from.

9 MS. WIDDER: Right. The other thing is

10 if you include the 110 point, it -- with the 25

11 and 50, it improves the rating for the VFD case,

12 and if you're equally weighting them, 110, you

13 will have no benefit from the VFD. There is no

14 overspeeding, you're just on the pump curve. So

15 now you have two points on the pump curve and

16 three that are dropping down or two that are

17 dropping down, so you're getting a little bit less

18 credit, but essentially you could do it.

19 MR. ADIN: It just doesn't add any

20 particular value.

21 MS. WIDDER: It doesn't add any value

22 for the VFD.
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1 MR. ADIN: Right. That's helpful.

2 Thank you.

3 MR. BROOKMAN: Louis Starr.

4 MR. STARR: So, you know, the number

5 that you whited out kind of just went with what

6 Lucas was saying, was 43 I believe was the magic

7 number when you whited it out. So you do see a

8 benefit, it's just -- you know, it's probably not

9 realistic to think if you had a VFD, you're going

10 run at those points; right?

11 MS. WIDDER: Right.

12 MR. STARR: What it does do is it allows

13 the PER metric to mean the same thing across all

14 categories of various pumps. So that's the

15 advantage to it. So it's being rated at points

16 that maybe aren't so great in the real world, but

17 in the reality, you now have a metric that carries

18 across all three of them.

19 MS. WIDDER: Right. Which is really

20 what we were thinking of with the 50, 75, 100, and

21 110, but equivalently -- is equivalently true of

22 the 25 to 100 case. It's just very actually not
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1 possible to test all pumps at 25 percent of BEP

2 flow throttling.

3 MS. MAUER: This is Joanna. I think

4 what Louis was suggesting was actually to do the

5 middle column for all three.

6 MS. WIDDER: Oh, the middle column for

7 all three. There you go. So --

8 UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: Yeah, that

9 thing.

10 MS. WIDDER: So then you just wouldn't

11 capture the same amount of benefit, which would --

12 you know, that's fine, you're still capturing some

13 benefit.

14 MR. STARR: You know, essentially if you

15 think about it, what you're really doing the other

16 way is an MEI and an EEI with the stuff you have

17 in yellow. That's essentially what it is.

18 MS. WIDDER: Yep.

19 MR. STARR: And so even though your

20 metric says PER, it's really -- you've just

21 captured two things in one metric --

22 MS. WIDDER: PER equals MEI, not times
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1 itself. This is our mathematical manipulation of

2 MEI, yeah.

3 MR. STARR: For two classes of things,

4 it's using an MEI, and for the third class, it's

5 using an EEI essentially, or a version of EEI.

6 MS. WIDDER: Mm-hmm.

7 MR. STARR: So I would rather just have

8 it all be PER or, you know, using the same metric

9 across it.

10 MS. WIDDER: Right.

11 MR. BROOKMAN: I'm looking -- Al.

12 MS. WIDDER: Yeah. And I think that's

13 what Steve was trying to get at earlier.

14 MR. HUBER: You know, it makes life

15 simple, and I don't have a problem, philosophical

16 problem, with it except -- and I've got to tell

17 you, I took a real beating from my European

18 colleagues in our last meeting because we were so

19 far deviating from what they were doing, it was

20 causing them a lot of grief, and they were upset.

21 If it doesn't cause DOE problems, and it does do

22 something for you, is you're trying to influence
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1 people that using VFDs is the way to go in a lot

2 of cases, and it's just a number. I mean, we know

3 it's just a number.

4 That's the thing we've got to remember,

5 it's just a number, because, you know, we don't

6 know exactly where it's going to operate, we don't

7 know a lot of things, it's just a number for

8 somebody to look at and say, "Yeah, I can get some

9 advantage." Yeah, it looks like a lot of

10 advantage. One suggestion is don't use the higher

11 horsepower efficiency motor on that line, and it

12 will drive it up a little bit more.

13 MR. STARR: Well, one thing I was hoping

14 is that even though it's just a number, Al, they

15 might be able to change it into something that

16 actually means something, like if they normalize

17 it somehow, they normalize those numbers somehow

18 that capture something, maybe it could be an

19 efficiency somewhere between zero and 1, and you

20 would get a number out of it, and then it could be

21 used as an actual input to something else, utility

22 programs, and actually mean something to someone.
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1 MR. BROOKMAN: That was Louis. Now back

2 to Al.

3 MR. HUBER: Well, if you try to do that

4 and you do that just with the numbers that you

5 have up there and you're only changing it to 43,

6 that's not representative either because if you

7 look at a throttle case, and we have, you look at

8 a throttle case versus a VFD case, it's like 40,

9 50 percent. So that's pretty much what that

10 shows.

11 MR. STARR: I see.

12 MS. WIDDER: Right. Which is --

13 MR. HUBER: So that's what you're really

14 doing. And I don't know how we're going to

15 explain this to the consumer, but what that really

16 means is that you're not throttling the pump

17 anymore, burning off energy with a valve, you're

18 using a VFD and not burning up energy that's not

19 being used. So I don't know how you communicate

20 that, Louis. I know your problem, and I have the

21 same problem, but I don't know we do it. We're

22 trying to do it within a framework of regulation,
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1 and this is our suggestion.

2 MR. STARR: I see now what you're doing,

3 Al, and I guess that makes sense in terms of the

4 best -- it's kind of like a best case patch. It's

5 like, well, in reality, what is the real field

6 condition? Well, it would most likely be closer

7 to 21-horsepower, let's capture a metric that kind

8 of relates to somewhere in the real world even

9 though you may not actually be able to use that

10 number across many kinds of classes of equipment.

11 So maybe that's fine.

12 MR. BROOKMAN: I'm going to keep asking

13 us to return to this construct of the metric and

14 see what you think, see whether what's on the

15 board is a usable configuration.

16 Steve.

17 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Steve Rosenstock, EEI.

18 With all due respect, I think it does help to have

19 a denominator in there. I know you just deleted

20 that to make the -- you know --

21 MS. WIDDER: I didn't delete them. I

22 can bring them back.
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1 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Okay. I think there is

2 --

3 MR. BROOKMAN: For simplicity.

4 MR. ROSENSTOCK: What?

5 MR. BROOKMAN: For simplicity.

6 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Well, not necessarily

7 for simplicity because it depends on which

8 denominator sometimes, but in terms of I'll say a

9 number -- they're not up back yet --

10 MS. WILLIAMS: Can I just add, is it

11 possible for us to nail down the load points, the

12 weights, and the construct without a denominator

13 before going into the denominator?

14 MS. WIDDER: One at a time maybe?

15 MS. WILLIAMS: Just because if we add a

16 denominator later, it doesn't change the results

17 of our analysis. I know it's important for

18 communicating with the customer or whatever, so I

19 do want to go over it, but I just want to make

20 sure that first we nail down what we absolutely

21 need to do the analysis for next week. Is that

22 something we can do?
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1 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Steve Rosenstock, EEI.

2 I don't mind that, but again in our opening

3 sentence, it was like, well, we're just going to -

4 - well, since we're just kind of -- she just took

5 off everything except the no denominator case, so

6 I just wanted --

7 MS. WIDDER: How about this? Next week

8 or next meeting.

9 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Yeah. Yeah.

10

11 MS. WIDDER: How's that?

12 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. But so let's

13 return to load points and weighting. And at these

14 load points, aren't they what -- for MEI, aren't

15 they what Al was suggesting?

16 MS. WIDDER: They are.

17 MR. BROOKMAN: These load points for MEI

18 are what Al was suggesting. So that ought to be

19 non- controversial for you all; right?

20 MR. HUBER: I just checked it, and it's

21 not.

22 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. But let me just
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1 check on -- I'm looking over -- I'm looking to the

2 energy efficiency advocates side of the table.

3 UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: We're

4 caucusing.

5 MR. BROOKMAN: Are you caucusing?

6 MS. WILLIAMS: Do you need a caucus?

7 MS. WIDDER: Maybe we should just take a

8 break and caucus.

9 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay.

10 MS. WIDDER: Because isn't that what

11 we're doing anyways?

12 (Laughter.)

13 MR. BROOKMAN: But let's just do this,

14 let's -- but then restate. We're looking to

15 confirm hopefully what's on the board here for the

16 load points and also for the weighting scheme,

17 which is equal at this point; right?

18 MS. WIDDER: Yes, equal weighting.

19 MR. BROOKMAN: Yes. So let's break for

20 10 minutes and see where we are. Okay?

21 (Break.)

22 MR. BROOKMAN: Let's resume. Are you
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1 all set?

2 So before the break, I am pretty sure we

3 confirmed that the manufacturers caucus, since

4 this was your original proposal, was good with

5 those load points up there on the screen and also

6 equal weighting.

7 And now I'm looking over to the energy

8 efficiency advocates caucus, and would one of you

9 report based on that? And use the microphone.

10 Tom Eckman.

11 MR. ECKMAN: We're in agreement with the

12 weightings in Columns D and E for those two.

13 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. So that's

14 consistent with your thinking, right, Sarah?

15 MS. WIDDER: Yep.

16 MR. BROOKMAN: The way he stated that,

17 that's correct.

18 MS. WIDDER: Yep. So basically the

19 yellow highlighted cells --

20 MR. BROOKMAN: Yeah.

21 MS. WIDDER: -- is what we'll move

22 forward with our analysis on for this time.
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1 MR. BROOKMAN: And just to confirm, this

2 is preliminary, this is not a final vote. And I

3 expect the manufacturers are going to go back and

4 do their calculations and others perhaps will as

5 well, but just enough to permit the analysis to

6 proceed.

7 Okay. So then what additional should we

8 try and sort through right now?

9 MS. WIDDER: I don't think we really

10 have time to get into anything else, to be honest

11 with you. I mean, we only have 45 minutes. We

12 could talk a little -- I don't really want to

13 start the denominator thing until next time.

14 MR. BROOKMAN: You had three or four at

15 least different variations on denominators.

16 MS. WIDDER: I did. I have several.

17 MR. BROOKMAN: Yeah.

18 MS. WIDDER: So that is going to take

19 some time. Does anyone else have anything?

20 Yes?

21 MR. BROOKMAN: Tom Eckman.

22 MR. ECKMAN: I think as we approach the
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1 denominator gingerly, having some normalization of

2 this that would give people an indication of

3 magnitudes that, you know --

4 MS. WIDDER: Mean something.

5 MR. ECKMAN: -- that we were just

6 talking about, and have that discussion sort of

7 conjointly because the denominator that you use

8 might affect your ability to normalize certain

9 things in certain ways, and I think maybe thinking

10 about that as a way to communicate how efficient

11 we're talking about and whether there is a big

12 efficiency difference or a little efficiency

13 difference --

14 MS. WIDDER: Right.

15 MR. ECKMAN: -- rather than just

16 multiply times 1,000 or divide by 1 --

17 MS. WIDDER: Right.

18 MR. ECKMAN: -- that would be the right

19 thing to do.

20 MR. BROOKMAN: Louis and then to Meg.

21 MR. STARR: So the other thing is, is I

22 think the ability for that number to be somewhere
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1 between zero and 1 would be helpful because the

2 PER number now has lost some of its meaning other

3 than it's just a number. So at least kind of

4 being able to rank order options and being between

5 zero and one I think would be helpful.

6 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Meg.

7 MS. WALTNER: (Off mike.)

8 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Arnie, please.

9 Microphone.

10 MR. SDANO: Arnie Sdano, Pentair. Given

11 what we've agreed to here on a preliminary basis,

12 I know, Sarah, we've been tasking you on multiple

13 things all day long here, but if we would go back

14 to the load curve and we would adjust to two

15 different load curves, one reflecting Column A and

16 one reflecting Column B -- I know they're not A

17 and B, but anyway, I think that might be

18 interesting to look at because we know there is

19 more than one type of load curve that's out there,

20 and frequently the kind of load curves that you

21 would not want to have on variable speed, you

22 know, it's something we work with customers
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1 closely to keep them operating almost 100 percent

2 of the time within the preferred operating region,

3 you know, kind of reflective of what's there, and

4 so it would be interesting to take that data and

5 convert it back to justify the weighting to see

6 what that load curve would look like.

7 MS. WIDDER: You mean the weightings --

8 MR. BROOKMAN: The (off mike) shaped

9 curve.

10 MS. WIDDER: Yes, instead of -- yep, we

11 can do that. We'll look at the weightings. Yep.

12 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Meg? Oh, wait.

13 Go ahead, Chuck.

14 MR. POWERS: Two other topics. Does it

15 make sense that we could think about instead of

16 calling it Lot 11, something like HI whatever? I

17 think we should come up -- so that at this point

18 forward we use something that we can put our stamp

19 on; right? And somebody said at lunch, somebody

20 said call it -- and I really don't care, but

21 somebody called it HI --

22 MR. HANDZEL: Group 1.
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1 MR. POWERS: -- Group 1 or HI something,

2 because we're going to have, if I understand

3 right, we're going to have what we've agreed upon,

4 which is the Lot 11 right now, but then I think

5 circulators was the next one; right? And we could

6 call these something. So HI whatever, and it

7 lines up. It doesn't matter and --

8 MR. ADIN: I was going to make a

9 suggestion on that.

10 MR. BROOKMAN: Yes, sir.

11 MR. ADIN: We've already agreed on

12 what's in for this phase of the rulemaking. We

13 could just call it the Phase 1 Scope or something

14 like that, because that's a group of pumps that

15 we've taken a vote on.

16 MR. BROOKMAN: No problem.

17 MR. POWERS: So that way it gets

18 published that way. That's fine.

19 MR. ADIN: Yeah.

20 MR. POWERS: Would it make sense,

21 though, to be HI Phase 1?

22 UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: (Off mike.)
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1 (Laughter.)

2 UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: (Off mike)

3 NGO (off mike).

4 MR. POWERS: NGO is fine, too. Okay.

5 The second question --

6 MR. HANDZEL: So do we need to vote on

7 that, though?

8 (Laughter.)

9 MR. HANDZEL: Just to make it happen.

10 Okay? Because we don't want to talk about Lot 11

11 anymore. Okay?

12 MR. BROOKMAN: Well, I'm not sure we

13 needed to vote on it, I think we just adopt that

14 as a convention.

15 MR. HANDZEL: That's fine, as long as

16 we're agreeable to do that.

17 MR. BROOKMAN: Phase 1 Scope.

18 MR. HANDZEL: Okay.

19 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay.

20 MR. POWERS: And then the second

21 question is -- and it's been brought up several

22 times, because of the MEI, because we're trying to
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1 look at the extended line of products here that

2 Sarah has done a great job with, instead of

3 calling it PER, pump -- right? -- because there

4 are a lot of variations, Greg brought up a point

5 at lunch, and he called the EPER -- just bear with

6 me -- it was Extended Product Efficiency Rating

7 instead of Pump, because you do get involved in

8 VFDs, you do get involved in other drives, and so

9 it's the extended products.

10 UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: Label all

11 those together or something.

12 MR. BROOKMAN: Right. I guess that's

13 something to consider. We have plenty of time to

14 continue to consider what the acronym is.

15 UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: Okay.

16 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay?

17 Steve Rosenstock.

18 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Steve Rosenstock, EEI.

19 This is just one of the clarification questions on

20 Slide 32. This is when you're doing things with

21 the pump and the motor and the controls --

22 MS. WIDDER: Yep.
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1 MR. ROSENSTOCK: -- back on your

2 presentation. Again, I just wanted clarification

3 on that formula, on this version of the PER

4 formula.

5 MS. WIDDER: This. Yep.

6 MR. ROSENSTOCK: The efficiency, I think

7 it's 8 or whatever, and drive slash -- are you

8 saying that's the measured efficiency or I'll say

9 the loss of the drive and the motor at those load

10 points or just the drive?

11 MS. WIDDER: The motor and the -- or the

12 drive and the controls.

13 MR. ROSENSTOCK: I'm sorry, you're

14 right. I'm sorry, the motor and --

15 MS. WIDDER: The motor and drive. Yep.

16 MR. ROSENSTOCK: And the controls. The

17 driver and the controls.

18 MS. WIDDER: Driving and controls.

19 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Again, Steve

20 Rosenstock, EEI. I was just surprised -- now,

21 again, I know we're using the 60-horsepower

22 example, but I was just surprised where it said 56
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1 percent speed, that it was -- that speed is across

2 the top; right?

3 MS. WIDDER: Speed is down the row.

4 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Oh, speed is down the

5 row at -- okay, so at 75 percent speed down the

6 row, you're at 93 percent efficiency, and I'm just

7 thinking for that 60-horsepower motor, again, that

8 the motor is about still probably like -- okay, if

9 it's 93 percent efficient, that motor is still

10 93.6 percent efficient, or maybe 93.4, that the

11 rest of that -- the other .4 percent is from the

12 control? Is that -- again, I'm just trying to get

13 the combination in my mind here.

14 MS. WIDDER: Yeah. This was meant to be

15 illustrative. Certainly, I need to do a little

16 more research on what is representative numbers

17 for this hypothetical motor drive data. It is

18 just representative.

19 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Because -- Steve

20 Rosenstock, EEI -- the reason, you had a previous

21 slide that showed a control efficiency of 96

22 percent, so I started getting confused in terms of
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1 how the numbers were all meshing together. So

2 that's all.

3 MS. WIDDER: Right. Comparing, right.

4 That's a good point.

5 MR. ROSENSTOCK: So, again that -- again

6 --

7 MS. WIDDER: Yep. We'll make sure that

8 that's more consistent.

9 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Okay. Thank you very

10 much. Appreciate it.

11 MR. BROOKMAN: Al Huber.

12 MR. HUBER: Sarah, so that we can be

13 prepared adequately for the next meeting, when do

14 you think you could possibly get this spreadsheet

15 to us so that we can run it, have NEMA-BIS run all

16 these for us?

17 MS. WIDDER: I'm going to -- Lucas, do

18 you want to have any input on this? I'm going to

19 try to get it -- I would like to review it in our

20 team to make sure it's accurate, but probably next

21 week, beginning of next week, would be my goal.

22 MR. HUBER: Okay. Are you going to --
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1 you put up some figures there for MEI of 10, 25 --

2 MR. BROOKMAN: 10, 25, 40, 55, 70, and

3 max tech.

4 MR. HUBER: Well, you know, we're not

5 going to eliminate 100 percent of the industry, so

6 --

7 (Laughter.)

8 MS. WILLIAMS: We're just required by

9 law to look at max tech.

10 MR. HUBER: We hope you're not, but what

11 we're saying is we want to run exactly what you're

12 going to run. So is that what you're going to

13 run?

14 MS. WILLIAMS: Yeah. I think that Dan

15 and I might consult, like we have to figure out

16 what we're going to use for max tech. I mean --

17 MR. HUBER: I'm not worried about max

18 tech.

19 MS. WILLIAMS: Okay. So, I mean, we can

20 plan -- so here's what I'm going to say. Once we

21 get the data, we will calculate the C value for

22 those MEI levels. We will -- and we'll -- there
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1 are a couple other things that need to be done, so

2 what we could do is basically write down -- you

3 know, get the new data, write down what we're

4 planning to use for the MEIs, the C values, and

5 the part-load factors, and send those to you guys

6 to make sure that we're all using the same thing.

7 MR. HUBER: When?

8 MS. WILLIAMS: Well, unfortunately I

9 don't have the new data yet, so --

10 MR. HUBER: Yeah. They've run into some

11 problem and they're trying to get it cleared up.

12 We hope to have it to you by Monday.

13 MS. WILLIAMS: Yeah. So once we get the

14 data, it shouldn't take us very long, I think, but

15 I just can't promise anything until I --

16 MR. HUBER: They're hoping to have it to

17 you. But you've got most -- well, you've got data

18 from a lot of us.

19 MS. WILLIAMS: Yeah, we do, and so we

20 could do it off that, but it's potentially that

21 the C values might not be exactly the same, so,

22 you know.
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1 MR. HUBER: Okay. Anyway, we're hoping

2 to get that to you Monday, but what I'm saying is

3 that we want to be prepared when we come back, and

4 in order to do that, we've got to give them time

5 enough to get it done and time enough for us to

6 look at it and digest it. And so if you think

7 you're going to go with the 10, the 25, the 40,

8 the 55, and the 70, then that's what we'll have

9 them run.

10 MS. WILLIAMS: Okay. I mean, I just

11 threw those out there with you guys --

12 MR. HUBER: We can do our own C values.

13 I mean, we know how to -- you know, our guys know

14 how to do that, so --

15 MS. WILLIAMS: Yeah. I have basically

16 verified they were the same, but it shouldn't be

17 that far enough off of it, so just depending on

18 how we clean our datasets; right? So, yeah,

19 that's fine with me. If you guys have any

20 preference for other efficiency levels, we could

21 talk about it.

22 MR. HUBER: Well, we would be fine with
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1 5, 5.5 -- no.

2 (Laughter.)

3 MS. WILLIAMS: Okay.

4 (Laughter.)

5 MR. HUBER: No, we're fine.

6 MR. BROOKMAN: So, Alison, they can

7 expect that you will send -- when you've got the

8 data and when you've consulted with Dan and you've

9 got those MEI numbers, you'll send them out.

10 MS. WILLIAMS: I mean, yeah. I think we

11 have established it doesn't matter, but we can do

12 our due diligence. Yeah.

13 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. And you'll send

14 them out to everyone.

15 MS. WILLIAMS: We can. Yeah.

16 MR. BROOKMAN: That would be great.

17 MS. WILLIAMS: And the other thing that

18 we have to use, Al, is the part-load factors for

19 75 percent and 110 percent to set the standard

20 levels, so we'll just use the ones that the EU

21 used of it's like .95 and something else. So we

22 can send that.
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1 MR. HUBER: If you're going to do that,

2 just put that in her spreadsheet and tell us what

3 you're doing. That's all you need to do.

4 MS. WILLIAMS: Okay. Yep.

5 MS. WIDDER: Okay.

6 MR. BROOKMAN: Thanks, Al.

7 Lucas Adin. No? Nothing at this point?

8 (No audible response.)

9 MR. BROOKMAN: Meg.

10 MS. WALTNER: So I just wanted to add

11 onto that. Maybe we could talk a little bit more

12 about what we're expecting to see from the

13 consultants before the next meeting in terms of

14 the LCC analysis and the timeline that we're going

15 to get that on, which is hopefully more than a day

16 before the meeting.

17 (Laughter.)

18 MS. WILLIAMS: I mean, you may have,

19 because we don't have -- well, do we have a month

20 before the next meeting?

21 MR. BROOKMAN: Yes, we do. April 29 and

22 30. It's a full month.
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1 MS. WILLIAMS: Okay. So, yes,

2 understood. We will do our best to get something

3 out before the next meeting. We have a sequential

4 analysis; right? Like Dan has to finish his first

5 before I can finish mine. So it's a little bit

6 problematic because we're super crunched for time

7 already. We'll do our best. And what I told

8 someone else earlier is if we fail this month,

9 what we're hoping to do is that we can present --

10 and so the plan for next meeting is to present

11 engineering LCC. We can talk about inputs and

12 assumptions and change them real time if possible,

13 and then you guys will have those and can think

14 about them more and send us feedback between the

15 April and May meetings. So, I mean, we'll try to

16 get it out as soon as possible for April. I think

17 for the rest of the ones we'll be in better shape

18 because we can (inaudible) on previous analyses

19 that you've already seen. And tomorrow I have a

20 meeting with my team to discuss what the scope of

21 metric have been decided on and talk about how

22 once the new data comes in, we have new shipment
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1 efficiency distributions that affect how the LCC

2 is modeled, whatever.

3 MS. WIDDER: Essentially we'll do our

4 best.

5 MS. WILLIAMS: Essentially we'll do our

6 best. I don't know the answer yet, and I know

7 it's problematic to just show up at the meeting

8 and get thrown a whole bunch of information for

9 the first time. What we can hopefully send out in

10 advance is some slides with like the assumptions

11 that are going in, so you at least have that to

12 think about in advance at a minimum, and if we

13 can't get the results out for some reason, so that

14 there will be pieces that you'll have. I think we

15 can shoot for that at a minimum, but there will be

16 something out there that can be looked at in

17 advance.

18 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Tom.

19 MR. ECKMAN: Yeah, I think it would be

20 helpful, at least for me, and I suspect some of

21 the other folks who are not in the industry, to

22 look when you get the data so that we can look at
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1 the sales, weighted average, things, what the

2 histogram looks like in terms of product

3 efficiency out there in these classes so we know

4 where things are grouped and what a 10 or a 20 or

5 whatever might look like so we have some idea of

6 what we're looking at in terms of the --

7 UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: (Off mike.)

8 MR. ECKMAN: Yeah, I know you would.

9 (Laughter.)

10 MR. ECKMAN: So in terms of preparation

11 for the next meeting, you know, we've got pretty

12 cloudy glasses on right now looking into that, so

13 any insights that we can get in advance to be

14 thinking about what that distribution looks like,

15 what the kinds of incremental costs of either

16 product improvement or product disappearance might

17 be. (Laughing.) Because there is cost in both of

18 those.

19 MR. BROOKMAN: Mark Handzel.

20 MR. HANDZEL: So Mark Handzel with

21 Xylem. So we need to make sure that Navigant and

22 LBNL is doing that with the data they have. You
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1 know, we'll certainly be doing it with us with the

2 broader database that HI has, but we aren't

3 allowed to share that.

4 UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: Right.

5 MR. BROOKMAN: Alison, did you follow?

6 MS. WILLIAMS: So let's talk about that;

7 right? So, I mean, Dan and I are planning to do

8 our analysis with the aggregated data that HI

9 collected and NEMA is -- so I assume --

10 MR. HANDZEL: So that's the analysis

11 that you've asked us to run with the data that we

12 have.

13 MS. WILLIAMS: I mean, that's not the --

14 that gives us the things that we need to do our

15 analysis; right? But so can we --

16 MR. HANDZEL: So that was the additional

17 work that we advised was going to need to be

18 compensated for to be done? Is that --

19 MS. WILLIAMS: I assume so. I haven't

20 heard from DOE yet what the question is. So we're

21 going to meet with DOE tomorrow to determine what

22 NEMA is asking for because I don't know. I assume
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1 that what Dan and I requested is what they have

2 problems with, so --

3 MR. HANDZEL: Yes. I'm pretty sure

4 that's what it is, yeah.

5 (Laughter.)

6 MS. WILLIAMS: So we will try to get

7 that resolved as soon as possible, but that data

8 that we requested is what we're planning to use to

9 do our analysis. I mean, so because it's

10 aggregated, it won't be exact, but it will be --

11 you know.

12 MR. HANDZEL: Right. But did you hear

13 what Tom was asking for --

14 MS. WILLIAMS: Yes. So that's why I'm

15 asking. I assume since it's aggregated, it's okay

16 to share that, like a histogram of C values from

17 this data?

18 MR. HANDZEL: Yeah. Yeah, that's fine.

19 MS. WILLIAMS: Oh, okay. Yeah. So

20 let's -- we can run those.

21 MR. HANDZEL: Right. It will show the

22 impact on the industry and not identify any one
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1 manufacturer, it will be the overall industry, so

2 we're completely fine with that. Yeah.

3 MS. WILLIAMS: Yeah. And that's how the

4 C values will be set, is essentially by a

5 histogram and what percentage fall out of each.

6 So we have to do that anyway. So we'll be happy

7 to share that.

8 MR. HUBER: I would just encourage you

9 to make up your mind quickly whether you're going

10 to contract with NEMA-BIS to do that extra work

11 because you're just delaying your own work if you

12 don't.

13 MS. WILLIAMS: I agree. I didn't know

14 about this, and I requested DOE, to hear about it

15 tomorrow. So I apologize.

16 MR. BROOKMAN: Thanks, Al.

17 And then thanks, Alison.

18 Other thoughts about looking ahead to

19 the next meeting or series of meetings about needs

20 or things that we would like to queue up?

21 Yes, Mark.

22 MR. HANDZEL: So just -- I haven't
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1 talked to my cohorts on this, but I guess, you

2 know, obviously we have a copy of all of Sarah's

3 slides, but there has been extensive discussions

4 ongoing going back and forth and adjusting stuff.

5 So I just -- you know, should we just kind of like

6 make those -- throw away and get another -- is

7 there something else we can --

8 MS. WIDDER: We'll send you a revised

9 version.

10 MR. HANDZEL: Okay. Okay. I just think

11 that's important --

12 MS. WIDDER: Plus I updated the numbers

13 in the table, so they're actually correct now.

14 (Laughing.)

15 MR. HANDZEL: Okay. All right. Yeah,

16 so if you want to check that, Sarah, and make sure

17 it's all right.

18 MS. WIDDER: Yes.

19 MR. HANDZEL: Because there has been so

20 much going on.

21 MS. WIDDER: Right.

22 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay, so then we
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1 literally will throw these away.

2 MS. WIDDER: I mean, you can keep them

3 if you want.

4 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Recycle.

5 MR. BROOKMAN: Yes.

6 MS. WIDDER: And a lot of -- I mean, if

7 you want to write on things, the only thing I

8 updated was really the numbers in the table that

9 were errors.

10 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay.

11 MS. WIDDER: And so most of the slides

12 are exactly the same.

13 MR. BROOKMAN: Yeah. Okay.

14 MR. ADIN: Can I clarify something?

15 MR. BROOKMAN: Lucas Adin.

16 MR. ADIN: Just with respect to slides

17 in particular, maybe -- well, you can tell me if

18 this isn't what's most helpful, but we'll send out

19 an e-mail -- so we've sent out a couple things.

20 Well, we sent out one, yeah. So there was some

21 stuff that was supposed to get sent out this

22 morning and didn't for some reason; right?
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1 But anyway, all the slides that contain

2 the voting stuff, so the record of what we voted

3 on so far, we'll send that out. We'll send out

4 the most up- to-date version of all the metric

5 slides and the spreadsheets, and I'll get a list

6 of what you guys should have, and we'll make sure

7 that you have it, and that will be the most up-to8 date stuff based on this meeting. So that will be

9 your list. Yeah.

10 MR. POWERS: Only one other thing, if

11 it's possible, I'm just speaking up for Greg, I

12 think he had asked Sarah earlier, the actual

13 formulas behind all this, if there are a couple

14 slides you can send us of those or whatever.

15 MS. WIDDER: Mm-hmm.

16 MR. POWERS: Greg, before he left, had

17 asked about, you know, this is all great no doubt,

18 but there are a lot of formulas behind this that

19 Sarah has done a lot of good work on, and it would

20 be a good idea if we understood what those were

21 and saw those.

22 MS. WIDDER: Mm-hmm.
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1 MR. ADIN: Okay. We can do that. Yes.

2 MR. POWERS: Okay, because that would be

3 important. That would be the third part.

4 MR. ADIN: Okay.

5 MR. BROOKMAN: Louis.

6 MR. STARR: So to tie in with that, just

7 that example, or the equation and then stick in

8 the numbers so that it comes out the answer that

9 you've listed in all three of those, for the 48.83

10 and the 48.11 and the 21.36 --

11 MS. WIDDER: Oh, this?

12 MR. STARR: Yeah. Just so we see the

13 equation --

14 MS. WIDDER: And then it's all the way

15 done through.

16 MR. STARR: The numbers.

17 MS. WIDDER: Yeah.

18 MR. STARR: That way I'll understand

19 everything; right?

20 MS. WIDDER: Yes.

21 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Yes, Paul Lin.

22 MR. LIN: Maybe for the next meeting,
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1 set out kind of what you want to be agreed upon.

2 I think we did it a couple times where Al and

3 everyone asked, "What do you want to know?"

4 Right? Just reduce it down to the basics. So

5 what do we want to get done in the April meeting

6 before we all come in so that we have that mindset

7 of looking at the documents ahead of time to

8 understand what we need to prepare for.

9 MR. ADIN: Okay. That's a good ask. I

10 mean, we've talked about a few of those things in

11 the last few minutes, but we can, as part of the

12 e-mail with all the stuff we're sending out, we'll

13 just articulate, "Here are the things that we're

14 going to do, here are the things we understand

15 you're going to do, if there is anything else --

16 MR. BROOKMAN: "Here is what we hope to

17 accomplish."

18 MR. ADIN: Right.

19 MR. BROOKMAN: Yeah. Okay. Final

20 comments here?

21 (No audible response.)

22 MR. BROOKMAN: I'm just going to do a
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1 very brief summary. We really covered a lot of

2 ground in these past 2 days. We started off

3 having a presentation, an overview, on the DOE

4 rulemaking process. You might want to save those

5 PowerPoint slides somewhere on your machine

6 because I thought there was a lot of really good

7 content there. And as we go -- as this working

8 group tries to emulate the depth and breadth of

9 that analysis that leads to a final product, it

10 may be useful for you to look at that again.

11 We went from there to reviewing the

12 aggregated results from the new surveys. There is

13 more survey data coming in from NEMA-BIS that is

14 going to be sent to DOE, but that was a good

15 start.

16 Also, we reviewed the updated scenarios

17 for circulator energy use savings and payback, and

18 that led to a useful discussion and a vote. We

19 clearly established the scope for this

20 negotiation, that was a big breakthrough that we

21 had. From now on, those items in red will be

22 referred to as Phase 1 Scope.
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1 And then, in addition, we talked about

2 the clean water definition for pumps and talked

3 also about how the listed exclusions would

4 complement the clean water definition. We didn't

5 do anything specific with that. However, we did

6 conclude, for now at least, the exclusions listed

7 in red on that worksheet. Sanitary pumps was

8 included as an excluded item, and also -- oh, we

9 clarified that the standards rulemaking applies to

10 electric drivers only.

11 Following on from that, today mostly, I

12 guess almost exclusively, we've talked about

13 metrics. We covered a lot of ground. We confirmed

14 that the load points that are going to be used and

15 the weighting for further analysis, and we also

16 got a good presentation on HI's 40.6 from Arnie,

17 so we know a lot about that for test procedures,

18 that will queue that up for additional work

19 looking ahead to the future.

20 So that's my brief summary. We covered

21 a lot in this 2 days. I'm looking forward to

22 seeing the analysis as it comes in, and I know you
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1 all are as well.

2 Final comments from anybody that wishes

3 to make a comment at this point?

4 Chuck.

5 MR. POWERS: Yeah. I specifically want

6 to give credit to Sarah, and probably the rest of

7 the team. They put a lot of time, a lot of valid

8 data. Sometimes one or two charts don't show and

9 there are a lot of arguments and -- in other

10 words, it's amazing how somebody in the audience

11 can pick on something, but the person doing the

12 work had to deal with it and had to author it. So

13 a lot of credit goes to Sarah and I'm sure the

14 rest of Alison's team and --

15 MR. BROOKMAN: Alison and Dan, yeah, and

16 the other teammates. Thank you.

17 MR. POWERS: -- did a considerable

18 amount to get us to a point we can start to

19 understand things.

20 MR. BROOKMAN: Yeah. Okay. Thank you.

21 And, Meg?

22 (No audible response.)
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1 MR. BROOKMAN: No?

2 Okay. Well, safe travels. Our next

3 meeting will be April 29 and 30th here in

4 Washington. And best wishes. Safe travels.

5 (Whereupon, at 2:45 p.m., the

6 meeting of the Commercial and

7 Industrial Pumps Negotiated

8 Rulemaking Working Group was

9 adjourned.)

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$

$200 246:6

0

005 190:15

02 183:19

0214-2 1:11

08 183:19

1

1 14:5 23:14

46:14,20

47:7,13,16,19

49:8,11,12,17

79:15 153:10

196:17 231:12

259:19 267:16

268:1 269:22

270:1,13,21

271:17 292:22

1,000 92:2,6 96:18

267:16

1,350 36:4

1.8 22:5,9 167:8

1.9 22:9

1.95 168:17

1:00 175:16

10 55:8 62:1,5

66:9 84:12

113:17,19

115:21 223:13

235:14

242:15,22

264:20 276:1,2

278:7 283:4

10:00 122:3

10:20 122:8,9

100 8:3,20 10:4,10

11:1 13:2 14:6

26:1 34:7,10

38:6 39:13

42:4,8,14,20

43:1,7 51:10,15

70:4,7,8 108:9

123:5,11 124:16

129:8,13 135:21

138:11,15

144:18 147:18

149:10 155:3

156:10 157:19

158:16 159:21

161:18 162:18

174:1,16

181:7,15 182:7

184:1 185:2

186:16 187:3

190:14 210:11

211:21 217:4,10

219:7,8 220:2

228:20 253:21

254:5 255:6

256:20,22 269:1

276:5

1000 1:14

10-horsepower

166:3 246:1,6

11 108:21 269:16

270:4 271:10

11:30 175:4 177:5

110 8:4 10:4 11:1

13:2 21:15 23:8

26:2 38:6 39:13

42:5,8 43:1

51:10,15 123:6

124:16 129:9

131:5 133:3

135:11 136:2

138:11 143:17

144:19 147:18

149:10 156:10

157:5,9,18

173:21,22

174:1,3,16

181:7,15

182:8,16 183:20

184:2 186:16

187:3 217:4,14

219:7 220:2

228:20 231:12

253:22 254:20

255:10,12

256:21 279:19

12:30 177:6

120 10:4 11:17

44:5 133:3

184:17 231:6

1210 32:18

33:3,10,12

35:3,12

12-12 203:14

13 230:4

14.6 31:18

15 113:17,19

122:5 123:16

16 33:22 34:9

84:12 240:14

160 9:16

18 184:1

2

2 14:16 40:18

46:11 109:16

241:14 292:2

293:21

2,000 56:20

2.0 168:2,22

169:13

2.25 22:14

2.5 22:14

2.8 22:5,17 29:1

167:9 168:10

169:3

2:45 295:5

20 55:9 66:9 219:8

220:8 226:11,16

227:8,9 246:5

283:4

2010 204:4

2014 1:12

2016 204:5

2017 204:5

20585 1:15

21 219:19

221:17,18

21.36 222:14

290:10

21.3-horsepower

23:5

21-horsepower

261:7

22.5 222:14

25 34:9

42:10,14,20

43:6,12,16

56:18 115:14

123:11 129:13

132:5,6,7

135:22 138:3,4

139:1 155:4

160:2,8

161:18,22 163:3

174:1,10,11

211:21 217:10

223:11 229:1

231:14,17

232:14

242:15,22 254:4

255:6,10 256:22

257:1 276:1,2

278:7
Capital Reporting Company

Commercial/Industrial Pumps Working Group 03-27-2014

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27 1:12

29 280:21 295:3

2-speed 20:17

25:11 27:13,18

31:1 107:9,12

108:1 134:21

2-to-1 25:21 28:17

29:5,15,22

3

3 78:6 133:12

169:4 183:21

203:15

3.0 168:2,6

169:13,16

3.16 15:10

3:00 175:8

30 55:9 66:10

280:22

300 58:18

30th 295:3

32 272:20

33.15 25:10

33.45 24:17

34.04 36:21

35 84:20,22

35.15 24:12,16

37:1

37-horsepower

60:22

38 137:19

38.43 27:8

39.1 194:1

3-dimensional

34:14,17

35:5,14,16

4

4 183:19,22

203:19 204:15

207:21 208:6

274:11

4,000 56:14

40 10:4 28:8 33:22

34:6 234:12

242:15,22 260:8

276:2 278:7

40.6 9:22 10:3,22

34:20 38:15

47:21 204:16

251:6 293:16

40-something

222:3

42 130:3 183:19

43 219:19 256:6

260:5

431.25 11:14

45 60:22 173:22

266:11

45.08 20:9 40:10

45.76 14:7

45-horsepower

61:6

47 183:19

47.7 22:21

48 172:15

173:9,21 194:1

48.11 290:10

48.83 290:9

490 22:22

4-pole 14:16

203:13 214:1

4-to-1 28:19 29:15

5

5 61:22 71:4,11

122:3 153:9,11

166:2 196:16,19

208:6,10,21

279:1

5,000 56:14

5.5 279:1

50 8:5 11:1 13:3

23:7 26:3,14

27:4 28:10,12

29:6,7,9,14 34:7

38:7,21

42:4,14,20,22

44:12,16 51:10

54:20 56:19

77:18 80:22

81:1,6,7,9,11

84:21,22 108:19

123:11 129:13

133:4 134:2

135:10 139:1

144:17 145:18

147:5 148:4

149:4,16 151:4

155:1,2,4

156:17

157:3,11,19,22

158:2,4 159:20

161:14,18

162:17 163:3

167:22 173:21

174:21

181:7,15,16

182:6,16 190:13

211:21

217:10,14 219:8

220:7 229:1

234:14 254:4

255:6,11 256:20

260:9

50-horse 231:16

50-horsepower

52:9 233:3

50-something

222:3

53.65 11:18

54 26:15

55 242:15 243:1,2

276:2 278:8

55-horsepower

28:6

56 34:9 273:22

6

6 119:1,2 183:22

60 10:4 11:19

134:3 226:1

229:21 231:16

245:18

60-horse 9:18

203:13,20

234:13

60-horsepower

28:6 60:19 61:6

165:22 230:1,7

231:8 232:22

273:21 274:7

6315 130:3

67 26:10 234:12

7

7 10:1 138:21

183:22

7.5 61:22 62:1,5

7.5-horsepower

246:1

7.94-horsepower

26:18

70 133:3 220:18

242:16,22 243:3
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276:2 278:8

74 68:20

74-1/2 69:1

75 8:4 10:4 11:1

13:3 23:4

26:1,10 28:10

34:7 37:13 38:5

42:4,8,14,20

43:1 44:17 45:7

51:10,14 68:18

123:5,11 124:16

129:8,13 131:4

132:20 135:11

136:2 138:11

143:16 144:18

147:18 149:10

155:4 156:10

157:5,9,18

159:20 161:18

162:17 173:21

174:3,16

181:7,15

182:7,16 183:21

185:2 186:16

187:3 211:21

217:4,10

219:7,8 220:2

228:20 229:2

231:12 234:10

253:21 254:4

255:6 256:20

274:5 279:19

75-horsepower

28:7,8

78 24:19 25:8,9

95:19

8

8 183:22 184:1

273:7

8:00 1:12

80 10:4 234:14

85 27:12

9

9 196:21

229:12,20

90 10:4 96:22

180:13

900 9:15 36:4

92 36:2

93 36:2,12 203:12

274:6,9

93.4 247:8 274:10

93.6 11:20 95:6

204:9 247:7

274:10

93.8 247:9

94 36:3,18,19

37:3,5,12

95 9:18 15:7,9

20:10 23:10

26:20 36:2

46:15 95:8,9

196:15,18,19

203:17 205:14

206:3 251:2

279:21

96 21:4 23:12

274:21

A

a.m 1:12

ability 137:9

140:15 267:8,22

able 8:11 30:7,20

72:17 73:11

88:6 91:1 92:3

96:2,5 98:20

100:3 104:3

105:21 110:11

114:5 117:12

118:2 131:11

147:2 152:21

178:3 187:14

228:11,13 242:7

249:6 259:15

261:9 268:4

absolutely 101:2

170:12 262:20

accelerator

220:14,15

accept 127:3

acceptability 58:9

access 178:18,20

179:1

accessible 177:15

178:2

accommodate

165:15

accomplish 7:5,16

8:11 21:6 24:11

49:17 87:10

91:6 124:5

237:3,17 238:2

291:17

accomplished

25:14 36:10

accomplishes 21:7

account 8:22 9:1,2

11:11 27:12

28:14 37:18

49:13 99:1

119:9,15 161:8

168:5 238:19,20

accounted 30:19

43:17 74:9

accounting 19:10

23:18 24:7 65:6

119:12

accounts 37:21

49:12

accurate 41:19

173:5 210:15

275:20

achieve 110:9

acknowledge

72:10 152:17

acronym 272:14

across 59:15 71:7

140:12 181:4

256:13,18 258:9

261:10 274:1

act 171:7 252:21

actual 28:18 80:1

114:20 229:1

259:21 289:12

actually 10:10

11:20 16:7

21:10 22:12,13

35:15 36:5 37:8

58:15 74:2 78:1

88:19 89:6,17

97:3 99:18

101:6 102:7

103:1,5 104:2,7

107:9,12

108:1,3 119:15

120:5,20 131:3

132:2 133:19

134:1 147:12

149:7,19 150:15

154:13 156:22

164:13 165:3

182:21 185:5

187:17 189:2

209:7 210:9,10

224:21 233:2

234:20 237:19

239:7 245:9

248:19 254:16

256:22 257:4

259:16,22 261:9
Capital Reporting Company

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adapting 87:18,19

add 31:7 32:11

53:22 74:2

76:15 80:14

109:12 138:16

147:8 179:19

208:10 239:18

255:19,21

262:10,15

280:10

added 35:20

181:12

adder 220:3

adding 20:12

220:3

addition 146:4

240:3 293:1

additional 57:19

266:7 284:16

293:18

address 63:18

149:11 179:14

180:1 242:1

addressed 140:6

addressing 63:2

adds 53:14 164:18

adequately

275:13

Adin 2:2 4:13

18:1,3,6,9,11

52:14 65:10,14

66:4 67:13 68:4

73:22 74:1

76:1,14 86:9

102:6,7 109:20

112:9 116:21

136:9,10 139:19

140:3 141:3,17

146:3 149:18

163:22 165:17

171:11 176:7,8

178:15

188:14,17,19

189:1,5

209:1,22

210:4,5,8,14

224:9

237:13,16,22

248:19,22 249:1

254:16 255:19

256:1

270:8,11,19

280:7

288:14,15,16

290:1,4

291:9,18

adjourned 295:9

adjust 268:14

adjuster 101:8

adjusting 78:7

228:1 287:4

adjustment 23:9

36:11

adjustments

121:15

ado 5:18

adopt 271:13

advance

282:10,12,17

283:13

advantage 59:21

62:9 104:19

165:8 236:19,21

237:7 256:15

259:9,10

advised 284:17

advocates 264:2

265:8

affect 28:1,2,4

78:9 116:14

121:10 148:7

267:8 282:1

affects 43:2

affinity 23:1

55:22 115:17

168:1,13 169:12

afternoon 175:10

afterwards 229:9

against 84:5

155:15 192:1

aggregated 284:8

285:10,15

292:12

ago 71:16

agreeable 271:16

agreed 54:15

146:21 208:1

268:11 270:3,11

291:1

agreeing 54:14

70:19 207:19

agreement 42:6

66:18 67:10

99:12 100:8

124:12 127:22

265:11

agricultural 96:16

Ah 180:8

ahead 57:20 71:14

75:3 79:2 90:14

98:12 99:2

110:17,18

146:1,18 178:14

191:7 214:20

221:3 229:15,18

240:12 269:13

286:18 291:7

293:19

AHRI 2:11 5:2

32:17

33:3,10,12

35:2,12

air 81:22 84:11

Air-Conditioning

2:10

Al 3:16 50:10

51:1,3 55:18

75:1 83:18,19

106:13 110:15

113:9 116:13

117:1 118:8

122:3,14 129:5

135:4,6 148:1

154:19 157:7

166:11 170:2,9

186:10 190:5

192:7 198:21

211:15 215:3,16

216:9 217:1

218:21 221:2

222:4,5 225:14

255:3 258:11

259:14 260:2

261:3 263:15,18

275:11 279:18

280:6 286:16

291:2

Albert 2:7

algorithm 11:6

12:17 230:20

231:5

align 124:1

alignment 236:1

Alison 2:17 4:17

74:3 78:22

98:11,12,13

99:3,5 100:5

118:2,3 119:13

121:17 126:3

127:20 142:6
Capital Reporting Company

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145:5 151:21

194:21 215:13

216:13,16

217:20

218:15,20 224:1

237:12 238:17

242:5 253:9,15

279:6 284:5

286:17 294:15

Alison's 294:14

allay 113:11

Alliance 2:14

allow 17:9 41:8

121:14 216:6

238:7 248:12

allowed 284:3

allowing 21:16

30:13

allows 8:10 41:19

140:12 256:12

alone 117:17

132:4 211:1

212:12

Alphabetical 2:1

already 127:10

137:5 143:8

156:1 179:15

201:2 236:18

270:11 281:7,19

Al's 53:19 55:1

156:4

alternative 31:17

alternatives 31:9

am 9:8 10:22

75:14 81:3

103:13 253:18

265:2 296:3

amazing 294:10

American 2:11

4:10

amongst 215:17

amount 28:21

43:3,4 54:17

64:8 106:3

132:6 179:20

241:18 257:11

294:18

analyses 79:10

238:20 281:18

analysis 64:8 65:6

66:17 73:3 74:7

78:5,19

98:16,17

99:1,14,18,19

100:2 114:19

117:19

121:8,14,20

122:1 127:1

149:6 164:5

165:9 167:17

168:5 215:15

216:6,19 218:18

219:4

223:8,15,21

224:3,6 237:19

242:12

253:18,21

262:17,21

265:22 266:5

280:14 281:4

284:8,10,15

285:9 292:9

293:15,22

analytical/

theoretical 56:5

analyze 48:9

112:11

analyzing 164:20

and/or 152:18

201:7

annual 102:13,18

130:4

answer 58:10

101:22 118:7

149:18 158:18

235:5,7 240:8

282:6 290:8

answered 117:3

anybody 113:12

143:14 145:8

182:22 193:6

195:7 218:8

294:2

anymore 15:5

17:21 113:3

260:17 271:11

anyone 219:10

266:19

anything 20:14

57:7 72:13 73:5

74:2 76:15 98:3

123:10 134:19

145:8 181:3

216:5 230:17

232:12 250:7

266:10,19

277:15 291:15

293:5

anyway 77:22

125:5,11 127:4

136:13 157:21

178:22 225:3

227:13 268:17

278:1 286:6

289:1

anyways 46:1

168:12 236:13

264:11

apologize 40:16

136:5 180:20

198:12 286:15

apples 77:8 83:5

174:19 219:22

apples-to-apples

222:12,15 233:4

Appliance 2:9 4:8

applicable

7:6,10,13 47:4

169:9

application

100:17 101:14

105:2 110:3

114:18 115:2

154:5,13,14

155:3 222:21

223:1 247:17

253:5

applications

97:14,22 108:6

109:6 137:1

156:12 165:16

222:18

applied 8:19

11:20 14:22

19:5,22 23:22

24:20 41:12

97:19 109:2

182:19 183:16

184:16 191:22

applies 152:22

293:9

apply 14:19

25:2,7 31:16

32:16 36:20

38:9,22 44:4

46:15 48:4,5

54:17 55:8 81:4

91:2 95:18

115:14 153:4

154:3 156:10

222:19

applying 26:20

28:3 32:1,20

38:19 154:13
Capital Reporting Company

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184:16 230:19

appreciate 61:20

223:7 275:10

approach 9:3,4

18:20 21:13

25:12 31:10

93:11 119:11

122:20 140:21

156:21 266:22

appropriate 8:21

27:10 28:9

31:11 88:9

150:14

approve 81:15

approximate

223:18 224:14

April 280:21

281:15,16 291:5

295:3

arbitrarily 148:18

ARBOGAST

296:3,13

area 138:22

areas 33:20

arena 134:6

aren't 8:19 97:1,2

157:2 256:16

263:14 284:2

argue 162:12,13

201:13

arguments 294:9

Arnie 4:20

155:17,19

167:5,6

240:12,13

250:22 251:1

252:3 268:8,10

293:16

Arnold 2:13

array 71:18

arrived 141:9

articulate 236:20

291:13

ASAP 2:9

ASHRAE 22:7

82:2 168:11

aspect 103:10

assessing 102:17

assign 44:15,17

assigned 89:2

assigning 197:14

associated 12:3

15:6 19:12

48:21 74:11

146:22

assume 14:4 19:13

22:12 28:10

29:8 39:2 80:18

169:8 195:4

210:11 230:16

231:2

284:9,19,22

285:15

assumed 21:1,5

24:5 25:21 26:1

27:5 44:1,5,18

167:19 168:10

183:14 212:19

224:4,5

assumes 189:5

assuming 15:4,5

20:11 23:10

26:12,19 28:5

29:16

38:12,13,19,20

43:9 169:11

197:6 223:11

assumption 8:21

14:6 21:18

22:10 26:8

29:2,4 30:9 35:6

44:6 118:20

164:5 189:2

198:3 209:3

233:20 254:8

assumptions 21:3

25:16 26:7

27:16 30:2 37:2

41:1 42:7 55:19

59:20 80:18

88:18 121:9,19

188:20 198:7,16

207:7 225:3

238:1 281:12

282:10

assured 89:10

attach 134:19

audible 179:6

211:13 249:12

280:8 291:21

294:22

audience 294:10

author 294:12

authority 83:9

available 30:16

32:18 106:10

178:21

Avenue 1:14

average 7:22

47:10,15

49:3,16 68:22

85:15 86:1

283:1

aware 86:12

Awareness 2:9 4:9

away 111:10

112:6 114:6

287:6 288:1

B

background

93:19

backwards

194:14,15

bad 17:22 88:12

balance 74:13

139:10,12

Baldor 2:10 4:21

Baltimore 3:8

band 158:7

bang 145:19

bar 45:2

183:14,21 190:8

Barbour 2:3 3:22

bare 7:6,7,8,9

10:20 11:7 13:3

15:2

16:1,3,16,21

18:16,18 19:4

20:10 24:22

25:3 27:2 31:6

33:6 39:10 49:6

58:2,3 61:14

65:3 76:9 77:5

79:17

82:8,9,11,16,17

95:17 109:1

110:6 120:22

124:7 129:8

130:9 137:12

149:9 153:9

161:3,5

163:15,16,18,20

164:1,9,10

165:10

186:14,15

189:1,16,17,19

191:11,13,20,22

192:1,6,18,19,2
Capital Reporting Company

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196:14,22

197:3,5,13

198:4,14,22

199:5,6 201:22

204:15,16,20

207:17,21

208:10,14 209:8

210:8 211:3,18

228:17,18

230:9,10,15

231:3 232:21

233:5

236:6,13,16

254:6

bars 45:3,4

183:15,20

base 67:4 200:7

based 9:13 12:18

14:19 26:11

28:18 30:13

32:3 34:18 37:2

46:18 47:3

48:10 49:1

52:16 64:8,11

67:18,21 72:13

80:16 92:17

102:12,19

140:10 141:9

164:3 168:4,10

181:17 197:6

209:3 233:20

241:13 265:9

289:8

baseline 65:16,19

66:13 74:11

213:19 225:2

bases 72:1

basic 55:20 72:7

146:13

basically 14:12

23:16 33:13

41:11 42:15

60:20 75:8 79:7

86:15 96:17

99:12 113:10

121:11 122:1

124:17 192:14

197:6 211:1

228:4 235:20

236:12 253:16

265:18 277:2

278:15

basics 214:16

291:4

basis 22:6 68:1

72:3 73:3 86:10

101:16 187:9

211:3 232:21

237:20 268:11

bear 54:6 69:9

72:22 272:5

bearing 241:9

bearings 241:21

beat 81:9,11

beating 258:17

became 157:14

become 91:17

250:8

becoming 158:21

beginning 50:4

146:20 275:21

behalf 170:10

behavior 170:15

behind 289:13,18

believe 32:3 75:12

115:20 123:6,22

129:19 132:16

202:11

223:18,22

249:19 256:6

benchmark

190:19

beneficial 137:7

benefit 70:22

80:20 97:15

98:6,21 100:20

139:20 142:12

145:1,6,19

146:22 155:5

176:19 240:19

255:13 256:8

257:11,13

benefits 154:15

155:6 212:9

BEP 8:4,5,8 9:21

10:6,9,11 11:18

19:9 22:20,21

23:4 38:6,7

39:14 42:5,21

44:6 48:4,10,14

52:12 105:15

131:19 133:18

135:11 137:21

138:5 139:11

143:7 144:19

147:14 148:16

149:5 158:4

159:21 160:2,9

162:17 163:3

167:20

182:7,8,16

183:22

184:1,2,17

185:3 223:12

226:17 228:5,20

231:6 240:5

244:11 253:22

254:5 257:1

Berkeley 2:17

4:18

best 10:6 30:22

49:22 59:7 74:5

107:12 108:1

123:13 124:1

126:1 129:20

131:3,14,19

141:8 158:21

162:9,22 172:1

174:12 187:15

207:20 227:18

228:10 237:17

261:4 281:2,7

282:4,6 295:4

Betsy 2:8 4:11

76:5,14 83:8

85:19 101:21

123:15

127:16,21

128:22 129:7,21

132:20

better 17:16 21:12

31:1,8 32:4,5

37:1 39:5

41:7,19 50:14

52:20 57:9 62:6

63:14 64:22

69:6,19 79:22

81:6 82:14 83:2

84:9,17,22

95:1,13,14,20,2

1 103:19,21

104:5

106:1,2,17

107:7 108:10

109:16,17 110:7

116:8 129:12

132:12 135:3

141:19 155:5

156:5 169:11,22

170:1,17,21

171:1,17,18,22

176:6 188:4,10

193:2

197:9,11,19

198:6 199:10,15

201:6,7 202:7

210:6 237:8
Capital Reporting Company

Commercial/Industrial Pumps Working Group 03-27-2014

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www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014

254:13 281:17

beyond 70:18

74:2

bigger 54:4 57:6

76:20 84:9

156:5 169:22

bin 27:22 231:7

binding 216:4

bins 44:13 45:2,6

182:18 183:17

bit 5:15 12:14,15

15:13 19:2

23:19 25:11,12

46:14 49:12

56:1 66:3,11

68:2 80:8 86:6

92:12 98:15

103:14 104:22

105:9 108:8

113:8 115:17

119:3 126:7

138:2 139:12

144:7 172:9

183:21 191:15

193:14 200:8

208:8 238:12

240:1 255:17

259:12 280:11

281:5

blocks 44:10

blue 45:3,4

183:15,20

246:20

board 71:7 79:1

126:9 184:22

261:15 264:15

Bob 3:22

bold 193:21

boom 246:8

boost 107:22

Boteler 2:3 4:19

bottom 8:14 49:15

66:17 178:17

196:13

boxes 44:14

breadth 292:8

break 92:13 113:8

114:2,4

122:3,10,12

163:13 175:3,6

176:14,17 177:5

264:8,19,21

265:2

break-off 133:12

breaks 89:15

breakthrough

292:20

Brent 2:10 4:21

Brian 151:22

brief 5:20 292:1

293:20

briefly 65:8 118:1

181:1

bright 3:4

bring 6:13 75:11

91:5 107:17

116:22 141:11

157:16 158:9

175:20 246:12

261:22

bringing 43:18

55:18

broad 131:17

156:19 157:6

broader 88:11

136:20 284:2

broadness 88:8

broke 200:10

broken 184:14

Brookman 2:4

3:2,7 5:4,13

10:14 15:19

16:12 36:16

40:13 45:21

49:20,22

50:4,8,12,19

51:1 53:10,15

57:16 60:4,10

61:8

62:14,16,22

63:4,19 65:13

66:14 67:11

68:5 71:15

73:22 74:14

75:1 76:4,13,16

77:9,12,20

78:11,22 81:17

83:18 85:3,5

86:13 88:14

90:6,8,14 91:10

92:12,16 93:14

96:9 97:10

98:4,9,12 99:2,9

100:5,22

101:10,18

102:6,21 106:12

109:19

110:15,18 112:8

113:7 114:10

117:22 118:7,12

119:1 120:19

121:17

122:2,8,11,17

124:11,22 126:3

127:11,19

128:5,7 130:19

135:6 136:9

137:17 139:18

140:4 142:6

143:1 144:10

146:1,16,19

147:7 148:1

149:2 150:15

152:10 153:20

154:19 155:17

156:14 159:14

161:10

163:10,21

165:13,18

166:10,15 167:2

169:17 170:9,18

171:4 172:4,21

173:6,13,16

174:6

175:2,6,11,21

176:7,13,17

177:5,9

178:4,7,12,19

179:3,7,18

180:2,8,11,14,1

7 181:21 182:12

185:13 191:6

196:6 200:5

202:9 203:1,10

204:8,10,12

207:10 210:17

211:11,14 212:6

213:8

214:15,18,21

215:1,8,12

216:3,13,16,22

217:3,5

218:1,14

219:1,12

221:2,13

222:4,8 223:16

224:7 225:4,10

226:8 227:1,14

229:10,14,18

232:16,18

235:9,15

237:12,15

240:12 242:2,22

243:2,4

245:1,14 247:22

248:22

249:10,13,20
Capital Reporting Company

Commercial/Industrial Pumps Working Group 03-27-2014

Page 9

(866) 448 - DEPO

www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014

250:10,21

251:11 252:16

253:7,14 254:14

255:3 256:3

258:11 260:1

261:12 262:3,5

263:12,17,22

264:5,9,13,19,2

2 265:13,16,20

266:1,14,17,21

267:20 268:6,8

269:8,12

270:10,16

271:12,17,19

272:12,16

275:11 276:2

279:6,13,16

280:6,9,21

282:18 283:19

284:5 286:16

287:22

288:5,10,13,15

290:5,21

291:16,19,22

294:15,20 295:1

brought 151:5

178:2 182:20

249:8 271:21

272:4

buck 145:20

bucks 246:6

build 69:17 149:7

Building 1:14

built 225:17

bull's 116:12

bull's-eye 106:16

115:19

116:4,11,12

bumped 204:2

bunch 54:1 282:8

burden 72:19

142:15 221:12

burdened 99:20

burdensome

18:21 41:16,20

burning 17:4

260:17,18

business 238:10

businesses 235:21

buy 69:12

84:11,12

111:1,2,12

251:5

buying

82:6,7,8,16,19

buys 190:18

207:17,21

208:14 251:22

C

C.J 2:12

calculate 12:9,20

19:13,19,21

23:2 25:3

28:18,20 38:4,5

48:6 72:17 80:5

89:7 93:20 96:4

189:21

244:13,22

276:21

calculated 13:4

16:8 17:2 23:16

28:2 30:18

37:15 48:16

230:6,8 243:16

calculates 33:14

calculating 15:5

115:22 201:12

231:3

calculation 18:20

21:13 23:4

24:15 25:15

26:17 30:11

31:10,12

32:5,19 38:18

39:20,22

40:11,21

41:10,16,18

80:2 89:15

141:2 161:13,17

167:4 169:6,19

181:14 206:11

208:11 229:4,5

231:4 232:20

248:10,14 249:3

calculation-based

6:21 9:4 41:6

calculations

9:9,11 22:13

25:13 28:14

37:8,11 42:3

44:2 48:1 58:16

71:6 96:1

128:16 144:21

155:16 160:17

161:9 163:9

167:13 169:15

215:10

224:10,21 241:9

245:11 246:13

247:1 248:12

266:4

calibrated 251:9

252:4

California 2:6 4:6

63:6

capacity 108:9

190:14

Capital 1:17

Cappellino 2:4

3:17

15:12,15,18

34:4 37:3 57:21

59:2,9,19 92:22

95:10 96:7

140:8 141:11

142:1 149:3

229:16

235:13,16

237:21 238:4

capture 10:7,10

90:20 91:3

145:6,10

147:12,18,20

257:11 259:18

261:7

captured 13:16

257:21

capturing 10:1

257:12

car 220:8,9,14

care 74:17 88:5,7

209:13 269:20

careful 148:22

carries 256:17

carry 126:21

case 2:5 3:20 8:3

9:17 11:7,15

13:22

14:3,11,12 15:2

16:2,3,14,16,22

18:17,20,22

19:5,9 20:3,6,13

21:9

22:1,17,21,22

23:12 24:13,17

25:8,10,21

26:14,22

27:2,4,9

28:11,12

29:1,5,9 30:10

31:6 32:18

33:3,6

36:5,7,11,12,21,

22 37:2,13,20
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Commercial/Industrial Pumps Working Group 03-27-2014

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www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014

38:5

39:5,11,20,22

40:6,21,22

44:11 46:12

48:8,20 49:10

52:4,8,18 65:5

91:13 92:5,8,15

93:18

94:1,14,18

95:15,19 100:18

103:6 107:14

130:19,20 131:8

153:3 161:3

165:7 169:9

173:22 174:13

175:19 202:20

206:19 212:20

225:2

226:9,16,20

227:8,10 230:15

231:8 232:11

233:11 234:13

242:3,4

245:2,7,12

247:22 248:1

249:5,18 250:17

252:12

254:2,6,20,22

255:11 256:22

260:7,8 261:4

263:5

cases 12:12 13:5

19:2 26:2 36:6

38:9 43:3 48:15

157:13 193:15

234:17 249:2

259:2

Case's 202:9

casting

68:13,14,16

castings 56:21

70:4,5

catch 145:13

categories 85:12

158:17

248:13,14

256:14

categorize 171:14

category 214:4

249:16 251:20

caucus 92:10

114:1 118:15

122:12,13

142:21 144:7

145:21 151:6

159:15 160:20

170:10 175:3

215:4 264:6,8

265:3,8

caucusing 264:4,5

cause 55:5 60:17

258:21

causing 258:20

cell 208:19

cells 186:1 219:6

265:19

central 81:22

certain 6:1 56:8

66:8 67:20 82:1

93:6 97:5

111:21 139:5,12

154:2 176:4

179:20 200:19

214:1 235:1,21

236:2,17

267:8,9

certainly 14:22

76:2 80:9 91:4

124:4 129:12

131:22 149:21

150:12 166:6

168:5 184:22

211:22 252:2

274:15 284:1

CERTIFICATE

296:1

certification

62:19 63:22

96:6 251:7

certify 25:1 296:3

certifying 41:9

81:4 233:15

CFR 11:13 204:7

231:7

chance 173:16

175:3

chances 108:9

change 12:19 31:5

35:11 40:6

46:16 55:22

70:7 95:5

118:21 138:21

167:14,22 169:1

181:20 212:16

214:5,11 222:11

233:21 243:17

259:15 262:16

281:12

changed 16:22

119:3 126:7,15

128:22 173:10

changes 27:3

34:12 46:9

91:22 92:1,3

128:17 132:6,9

changing 16:4

33:18,19 70:8

203:3,6 212:8

254:2,3 260:5

characteristics

9:22

characterize

63:12

Charles 2:4

Charlie 3:17

56:11

57:17,20,21

63:7 70:11

91:12 92:16,21

109:14 116:13

140:7 149:2,18

150:19 153:7,14

154:20 159:2

229:15 232:16

235:11,16

Charlie's 105:19

chart 92:18

183:14,17 185:4

190:8 232:13

charts 39:22

107:2 181:4

191:11 226:6

294:8

check 172:18

219:10 264:1

287:16

checked 103:15

263:20

checking 172:6

cherry-picking

154:10

choice 43:5 61:22

77:13 111:1,11

112:6 230:20

choices 42:2

117:11 137:2

choose 142:16

242:18 252:1

chose 14:10

chronologically

50:7

Chuck 2:12 4:1

51:2 53:1,10,12
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Commercial/Industrial Pumps Working Group 03-27-2014

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68:5 106:12

128:8 132:18

137:17 140:6

148:3 150:16,19

157:12 158:8

190:5 196:6,7

204:12 207:6

216:22 225:10

252:16 269:13

294:4

Chuck's 74:4

chug 91:1

circulator 292:17

circulators 270:5

circumstances

251:4

cite 130:2

city 220:11,20

223:3 228:1

clarification

229:12 248:20

272:19 273:2

clarified 293:9

clarifies 202:7

clarify 109:20

121:7 188:19

203:12 208:4

209:1 221:4

288:14

clarifying 76:14

139:19

clarity 116:22

200:11 208:8

class 81:2 130:9

258:4

classes 248:9,15

258:3 261:10

283:3

clean 152:20

168:19 278:18

293:2,4

clear 12:7 41:21

132:13 144:16

161:10,12

163:11 165:13

181:22 216:3

218:15

clear-cut 86:8

cleared 277:11

clearer 86:3

145:12

clearly 178:19

180:21

216:7,9,12,14,1

7 292:19

click 18:10,11

close 36:14,16

138:5 147:14

158:4,7 173:14

191:1 253:10

close-coupled

31:14

closed 226:21

closely 269:1

closer 49:8 240:7

250:10 261:6

cloudy 283:12

cognizant 208:16

coherence 6:1

cohorts 287:1

colleagues 258:18

collected 284:9

column 23:17,22

34:1,22 174:11

182:6 185:6

222:22 257:5,6

268:15,16

columns 34:9

186:3 265:12

combination

42:15 140:14

196:17,20

233:15,16,19

274:13

combine 75:17

129:14

combined 18:19

38:2 164:18

196:16 241:3

combining 13:20

comes 17:3 22:5

136:20 138:2

281:22 290:8

293:22

comfortable

26:12 78:20

134:20 143:4

coming 96:10

134:10 163:2

188:20 292:13

comment 60:2

94:7 112:10

142:17 146:4

155:17 159:16

240:20 294:3

comments 7:17

53:22 58:8 63:1

126:4 140:6

155:20 156:17

291:20 294:2

commercial 1:9

3:5 82:2 96:15

295:6

committee 20:22

22:11 72:14

181:3 253:20

commoditydriven 142:11

common

100:18,20 137:7

146:14

communicate

143:20 172:1

260:19 267:10

communicates

141:8

communicating

158:20 262:18

community 105:3

companies 54:9

132:21 159:1

company 1:17

2:10 68:11

151:12 152:6

comparability

76:6,12

140:5,12

comparable 195:3

compare 9:10

40:14 77:7 83:5

84:5 137:7

140:15 145:15

156:3 160:19

185:7,8,13

191:17 201:21

202:1 233:5

compared 16:21

27:14 174:16,20

211:8 224:18

225:2

compares 62:19

155:7

comparing 45:11

47:10 74:12

77:4 174:17

222:15 275:3

comparison 30:17
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Commercial/Industrial Pumps Working Group 03-27-2014

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39:19,21 137:9

163:18 185:22

187:10 197:8

198:17 221:6

233:4,21 241:3

compelling

149:22

compensated

284:18

complement

293:4

complete 167:3

296:8

completed 34:11

completely 25:14

33:20 72:10,11

88:8 93:16

146:9 223:3

286:2

complex 28:13

105:5

complexity 58:4

59:5 126:17

compliance

102:17

compliant 47:6

48:20 49:15

202:12,14

complicated

32:14 33:3 36:5

71:22 94:21

complicating

237:1

complies 141:6

comply 54:16

112:14 131:1

135:1

complying 209:2

component 12:4

164:8 242:1

components 7:16

11:6 164:6

composite 69:5

compromise

10:18 175:1

computer 177:10

concept 57:22

107:5 174:4

concepts 60:7

62:10

conceptual 50:2

136:22

conceptualize

214:13

conceptually

51:16 136:10

concern 51:8 55:5

62:18 104:7

110:19,22

135:12 136:21

137:10

228:15,16

concerned 99:8

103:14 146:12

224:11,12 239:4

concerns 6:13

56:10 57:19

117:18 135:7,15

146:10 219:11

concise 152:12

conclude 293:6

conclusion 107:11

condition

64:16,18

88:3,5,7 220:1

224:16 231:14

261:6

conditioner 84:11

conditioners

81:22

conditions 185:3

220:5,21 221:8

224:18 228:21

conferring 149:19

configuration

31:15 71:19

150:4,9 164:4

261:15

configurations

146:15 150:1

166:20

confirm 93:3

264:15 266:1

confirmed 177:20

265:3 293:13

confused 132:11

182:14 189:9

200:8 274:22

confusing 37:19

38:1 141:21

confusion 60:18

123:18

conjointly 267:7

connect 237:9

cons 41:15 46:21

consequences

246:10

Conservation 2:6

5:12

conservative

14:11 21:5 22:4

27:11 29:3

30:12 40:22

168:17 169:6

consider 7:18,19

18:18 22:16

30:6 41:5

64:19,20 81:14

85:2 101:19

141:5 143:6

144:13 145:21

147:4 153:8

157:14 203:2

235:8 272:13,14

considerable

294:17

consideration

123:12

considerations

141:10

considered 20:19

47:1 81:16

112:22 165:14

considering 21:15

67:21 157:15

211:17 232:10

consistent 9:22

41:1 144:19

265:14 275:8

constant 43:6,7

96:17 97:4,7,14

98:18 100:16,19

101:14 103:22

107:11,13

132:10 136:1

137:3,21

154:6,12 184:12

construct 52:13

73:20 80:20

99:13 100:7

118:4 119:5

120:17 129:19

144:14 148:22

219:5 230:12

238:2 239:6

243:7 248:5

253:17 261:13

262:12
Capital Reporting Company

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constructed

131:20 135:9

210:10

constructs 176:4

consult 276:15

consultant 179:1

consultants 54:10

133:5 134:12

280:13

consulted 118:1

279:8

consumer 53:7

77:10,11 84:16

140:16,18

141:8,20 162:11

170:1 260:15

consumers 74:13

117:11

consumption 47:1

130:4 171:15,17

174:13

contain 130:3

289:1

content 71:18

225:5 292:7

context 137:6

continue 104:13

106:4 198:18

272:14

continuing 5:14

contract 286:10

control 8:17 9:1

11:5 14:4

19:19,22

20:2,4,15,16,19

21:4,8 24:18,19

25:5,7 27:3,10

28:3,15

30:5,7,10,15

31:2 33:8 36:22

38:21 43:13,16

71:21 75:11

77:6 78:16

79:17 82:9

89:19 90:1

91:16 103:20

111:21 114:22

115:4 119:12,16

124:8 130:13

145:20 161:17

163:19 186:19

191:19 192:2,19

195:14

206:13,14,18

211:21,22

217:11 226:15

274:12,21

controlled 20:6

23:13 24:12

27:8 97:19

controls 7:1,8

8:7,10,20 9:2,19

14:1,5,7

18:17,19

20:12,13 21:10

24:20,22 25:5

27:15,16,19

30:13 31:8

32:13 49:14

61:15 79:14,22

81:11 82:21

89:13 95:16,21

97:1 99:17,19

100:2 103:15

106:1 120:4

130:12

145:1,6,19

146:22 147:6

161:7 164:2,15

200:16 207:7

219:8 254:7

272:21

273:12,16,17,18

controversial

263:19

convention

271:14

conversation 5:20

68:6 229:8

convert 269:5

cooling 82:4

copy 287:2

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66:2,3,22 68:10

69:14 70:14

72:15 74:13

76:11,12

77:6,21 78:8

79:14,18

80:6,22

82:10,11 83:15

84:10,13,22

86:7 88:12

90:12,16

93:11,21 94:19

95:1,4,18 96:18

97:18,19

101:2,6 103:8

104:6 106:2,17

108:9,13

109:4,21

110:3,9 112:21

113:19 115:1

116:14 117:1

118:6 119:1

122:3 124:16,20

127:9

128:9,13,20

134:19,20

135:22 136:2,21

137:6,13

138:1,5,19

139:12 141:4,6

142:14

143:8,9,10,12,1

4,18 144:8

145:11,12,21,22

147:2,4 150:10

151:15

153:15,19 156:1

158:13

159:7,8,10

160:8,12

162:9,16 164:1

167:15 168:16

169:8

170:13,17,20

172:19

174:18,22

175:1,4 177:5

180:13,22

181:19 182:13

184:8,18,21

185:8 188:6

189:2 190:11,14

191:1 193:17

195:8 203:16,19

205:18,21 206:8

207:8 208:6

209:16,17,18

210:14 217:17

219:18,20,21,22

220:5,20 222:10

223:2,13 224:17

226:16

227:8,10,12

231:16

233:10,17

236:10 238:16

239:11,12,13

240:9 241:17

245:11 246:22

247:6,7

250:7,14

256:8,15,22

257:20 258:4

259:2,3,5,6,7,14

260:8 261:4

262:17 263:20

268:3,22 271:21

272:9 273:7

274:9 275:20

277:20 279:21

280:22 281:5

282:7 285:9,15

287:17 289:11

290:14 294:10

ITT 2:4 3:17

57:22

I've 20:16 54:8

56:20 58:17

61:2 103:17

151:15 152:8

167:7,11 176:22

181:12 182:20

224:15 233:7

240:20 258:16

J

James 2:13 5:3

Jeremiah 178:13

179:10 180:3

Joanna 2:9 4:8

89:10 147:7

156:15 158:9

257:3

job 54:3 55:21

107:2 115:11

128:15 148:4

233:12 272:2

joining 177:12

judge 129:12

judged 125:11

186:16

justify 113:13

269:5

K

key 43:11 73:11

kick 77:1

kill 199:6

kilowatt 88:20

kinds 159:12
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known 93:7

Kohl 2:8 4:11

18:10 76:3,6

83:8 86:2

101:21 127:18

129:3,21

L

lab 151:18,19

233:17

label 101:13 102:5

103:2,4 105:14

123:3 129:18,22

130:2

142:9,13,17

145:8 159:3

272:10

labeling 102:1

140:11,14,19,20

141:16

labels 105:17

Laboratory

2:17,18

Labs 4:15,18

lack 208:8

land 36:1

large 6:12 22:15

46:13 132:8

larger 12:15 17:6

46:8 170:16

251:4

last 24:16 40:3,18

78:6 115:20

126:7,13 127:22

128:2,10 136:5

212:9 227:4

244:5 253:8

258:18 291:11

later 10:19 13:13

19:2 40:12

121:16 123:16

206:11 262:16

latest 81:16

laughing 87:8

126:12 129:2

170:8 175:20

283:17 287:14

Laughter 40:9

74:19 89:11

127:17 175:5,18

178:11 179:12

189:11 196:10

199:8,17,22

202:22 216:11

220:16 222:6

225:7 239:22

243:10 244:4

264:12 271:1,8

276:7 279:2,4

280:17 283:9

285:5

Laura 2:10 5:1

law 276:9

Lawrence 2:17

4:17

laws 23:1 56:1

115:17 168:2,13

169:12

layman 159:8

205:11

layman's 205:2

layperson 105:15

LBNL 283:22

LCC 98:18 280:14

281:11 282:1

LCF 89:20

leading 62:7

leads 61:19 292:9

leaning 170:4

least 18:21 83:21

86:8 174:15

198:15

224:10,16 238:5

266:15 268:3

282:11,20 293:6

leave 216:2

218:11,14

235:13

led 292:18

left-hand 182:6

legal 76:12 87:15

legally 75:13

less 12:6,13 29:22

32:6 41:16 45:6

49:12 94:21

126:13

141:19,20

145:17 165:4

168:19 185:3

190:15

196:16,22

233:22 238:8

255:17

let's 3:2,9 18:14

45:21 50:8

53:10,15 57:19

61:20,22 62:22

68:8 80:22

83:18 90:6,8

96:22 97:10

107:21 111:7,8

112:5 114:12

119:18,19,20

122:2,11 125:6

127:19 132:20

146:16 155:12

161:10 166:2,15

167:2,3 173:16

176:13,14

177:5,9 182:3

183:12 186:4

191:3,4 198:18

203:2 210:17

215:2 218:14,15

221:2 223:10

229:15 243:19

244:2 261:7

263:12

264:13,14,19,22

284:6 285:20

level 10:17 47:9

50:2 53:21

54:13 56:11

60:7,14 65:17

66:8 71:2 78:4,7

80:17,19 93:5,6

100:1 112:20

117:7,8,14

147:9 168:22

236:17

levels 60:21 65:22

66:12 67:17

72:17 73:8 77:1

79:8,9,11,16

87:18 99:17,21

112:12 117:20

240:5,7

242:12,17,19

243:14 276:22

278:20 279:20

lever 240:2

lies 51:22

life 114:19 258:14

lifecycle 67:20

light 8:6 45:3

lighter 183:15,20

likely 224:17

261:6

limit 106:3 241:6

limited 83:12
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Lin 2:8 3:13

63:19,20

66:2,20 67:2

68:3 163:10,11

191:7,8 192:4

203:10,11,17,21

214:21,22

229:11,20

230:3,6

232:13,17,19

249:10

290:21,22

line 14:1 66:17

88:22 162:20,21

196:13 204:14

207:21

208:6,10,16,21

212:9 220:18

221:17,19 241:6

259:11 272:1

linear 35:18,20

138:1,6

linearly 35:7 36:1

lines 28:11 85:6

270:7

list 20:18

118:10,17 122:7

289:5,9

listed 290:9

293:3,6

listen 196:14

listening 171:18

literally 204:15

208:15 288:1

literature 159:6

little 5:15

12:14,15 15:13

19:2 23:19

24:16 25:11,12

32:13 33:3

46:14 49:11

56:1,16 66:3,10

68:2 71:22 80:7

86:6 92:12

98:15 99:7

102:8 103:13,21

104:22 105:9

108:8 109:5

113:7 115:17

116:22 119:3

122:15 126:6

138:2 139:12

144:7 172:9

175:4 183:21

184:2 191:15

193:14 200:8

208:8 210:17

229:16

231:15,21

238:12 239:10

240:1 248:4

255:17 259:12

266:12 267:12

274:15 280:11

281:5

LLC 2:5

load 7:3 8:1,8,17

9:4 10:1,2,3,22

11:9 12:20

13:4,10,20

14:4,15 16:20

19:19,22

20:4,15 21:8,14

23:3,15

24:18,19 25:5

26:11,13 27:10

28:3,9,15 29:5

30:4,7 31:21,22

32:1 33:11

34:18,21 35:15

36:8,9

37:13,15,18

38:3

42:1,3,5,10,19

43:4,6,7,13,16,1

9 44:4,8,21

45:6,8 48:5,6

62:5,6 73:14

77:16 86:5

87:19 88:3,5

89:19 90:19,21

91:2,3

95:10,11,12

96:22

97:7,15,22

98:22 100:16,19

119:9,12

120:9,11,12,16

136:16 138:16

139:2 140:2

144:17,18 147:5

156:10,18 160:9

181:5,7,8,9,10,1

3,15,16 182:20

183:13

184:16,17,20

193:9,14 207:19

211:20 224:3

228:21 230:13

232:3 239:6

240:4 241:13

244:12 254:4

262:11

263:13,14,17

264:16 265:5

268:14,15,19,20

269:6 273:9

293:14

loaded 26:15

loading

12:9,10,13,14,1

9 25:17,18

26:2,4,9,11 27:4

28:1,5,12 29:6

43:6,7 44:16

140:1 149:22

150:6,9,11

229:1,2

234:5,11

loadings 21:12

loads 97:4

98:18,19

locations 8:2

log 180:3

logged 179:20

180:6

logging 180:1

logic 6:1 202:17

logical 156:12

162:10

logically 195:20

long 95:4 122:7

160:22 244:14

254:10 268:13

271:15 277:14

longer 122:15

244:7

loopholes

104:12,21

loops 226:21

loose 5:16 175:12

215:19

lose 131:22 139:11

167:2

losing 241:18

loss 12:2

13:5,8,14,20

14:20 15:6

16:9,17 17:1

25:2 32:2,4

241:15 273:9

losses 9:1 11:12

12:4,5,19,20

13:10,18 15:10

16:6,9 17:2,3
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119:10,16

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241:7,9,21

242:1

lost 69:4,18 70:3

268:2

lot 6:6,14 8:16

32:9,11

35:12,21 36:6

37:7 39:9 44:20

48:8 49:8,20,21

54:8 56:5 58:4,5

61:3 68:17

69:7,8 71:18

81:13 84:7

105:11 106:7

108:8,20 123:17

128:14,17

138:22 143:5

146:8,22 151:1

163:8 180:22

215:9

227:6,12,17

244:6 246:21

251:20 253:3

258:20

259:1,7,9

269:16 270:4

271:10 272:4

277:18 288:6

289:18,19

292:1,6

293:13,17,21

294:7,9,13

loud 16:11

Louis 2:14 4:7

50:11,12,13

76:16 78:14

88:14 91:15

93:2 101:10,11

102:9,21

153:20,21

184:15 225:4

227:1,14 236:14

256:3 257:4

260:1,20 267:20

290:5

love 246:12

low 25:22 26:16

28:11 51:14

107:17 155:3

lower 19:14,15

20:7 25:19 26:4

27:6 45:6 62:8

69:20 138:8

145:16 148:9

157:5 168:16

171:17,22

172:17 176:6

228:7

lowered 148:18

Lowe's 69:12

Lucas 2:2 4:13

65:13 71:16

73:22 75:7

76:4,13 78:14

102:6 109:19

112:8 136:9

139:18 140:4

146:1 150:20

153:7 154:21

155:20 163:21

171:10 175:13

176:7 178:14

179:3 184:15

200:9,13,22

210:4,21 224:7

237:15 248:22

254:15 256:6

275:17 280:7

288:15

lunch 173:1,7

175:6,7

176:12,17,21

177:6,8,19

200:9,10 217:1

269:19 272:5

M

machine 292:5

magic 256:6

magnitude 46:18

219:19

magnitudes 267:3

mail 179:14

main 43:10 77:22

mainly 103:3

maintain 31:6

139:3,8

major 121:13

majority 225:22

MALE 17:15,18

45:13 57:10

70:16 71:13

86:17 87:1,13

90:10 91:8

120:14 123:1

173:8,11,15,17

174:14

194:10,13 205:6

208:21 209:11

220:13,17

223:4,5 226:15

234:7 255:1

257:8 264:3

270:22 271:2

272:10,15 283:7

284:4

mandates 251:6

mandating 100:2

manipulation

48:1 181:19

258:1

manual 159:6

manuals 109:11

manufacturer

51:21 57:2

58:12 59:21

70:6 81:3 111:5

164:19 197:10

201:5 202:13,16

230:21 231:1

233:15 240:18

241:8 286:1

manufacturers

24:21 31:16

41:8 53:1 54:21

56:12 57:18

64:6 68:21

69:16,22 72:19

73:18 78:16

81:15 87:22

106:4 110:2

111:21 112:13

122:12,18

123:22 133:5

156:22 192:9

219:9 223:18

226:9 238:14

244:20 252:19

254:7 265:3

266:3

manufacturing

74:21 236:12

map 33:17

March 1:12

mark 2:7 3:19

78:11,12 79:5

97:10,11

100:10,22 101:1

172:21,22 179:7

187:2 251:11

283:19,20

286:21
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market

47:9,11,14,15

49:2,15 60:17

62:9 65:16,19

66:7 69:9 72:21

73:14 110:10

112:17 113:3,6

117:5,9,10,15

137:1 154:1,7

171:19

marketing 158:21

marketplace 83:3

84:1 94:5

113:18 195:11

233:13 236:21

238:9,15

master 12:18

masters 14:10

match 34:16 35:1

77:22 236:6

material 6:6,15

94:2

materials 69:5

math 55:20

184:18 196:15

201:9,18

mathematical

79:18 201:12

202:1 258:1

mathematically

103:16

mathematics

57:14

matrix 33:21

34:11

matter 43:12

88:21 115:2

125:6,12 209:12

247:6 250:12

270:7 279:11

Mauer 2:9 4:8

147:8 156:16

257:3

max 106:19

115:19 242:16

243:2,4

276:3,9,16,17

maximum 43:3,4

111:20

may 53:5,7,8 56:5

72:11 81:12

86:5 98:21

105:12 111:5

125:17,18,19

127:20,21 138:4

148:22 156:18

175:12 200:7

225:16 250:12

261:9 280:18

281:15 292:10

maybe 5:15 13:16

46:14 56:12

63:6,14,21 64:1

66:21 71:21

75:4 79:14

101:13 103:19

105:14 110:13

111:19 126:8

136:15,21

151:7,18 152:6

153:9 154:19

163:11 164:14

171:11 173:1

177:12 178:12

185:5 198:18

200:12 210:6

224:9 228:6

232:19 238:8

239:3 246:18

248:8 256:16

259:18 261:11

262:14 264:7

267:9 274:10

280:11 288:17

290:22

mcmanis 4:21

McManis 2:10

4:21

mean 12:12 35:9

37:10 52:6 57:3

59:6 65:10

70:17 71:5

72:13 74:5

75:15 77:2

78:14 79:5

81:12 84:3,9,13

89:18 90:18

91:17 92:8

93:13 97:12

98:16 99:15

102:13 106:5

109:3,18

110:7,12 116:16

122:21 125:14

126:10,20 127:3

128:9,13,19

129:3,11

130:8,16 135:17

136:12,17

137:11,13

145:17

146:4,6,7 149:8

153:7 154:4

155:14 157:5

165:5 171:1,12

173:11 174:8,16

176:20,22 177:3

184:7,10

187:11,13

192:20 194:22

195:17 196:2

218:21 221:16

233:9 237:4,5

242:10 245:7

247:18 251:19

253:20 256:13

259:2,22 266:11

267:4 269:7

276:16,19

278:10,13

279:10 280:18

281:15 284:7,13

285:9 288:2,6

291:10

meaning 54:15

268:2

means 36:10

47:12 62:9

110:8 112:16

145:14 149:5

152:5 167:13

198:14 206:5

252:20 259:16

260:16

meant 165:14

184:11,13

274:14

measure 21:11

31:19 39:13

195:15 241:1

measured 19:7

34:20 72:3

231:5 273:8

measurement

72:3 143:8,9

192:16

195:17,18

measurements

122:22 123:20

measures 130:3

measuring 31:12

32:2

mechanism 30:12

median 243:16

meet 51:12 56:22

64:5,7 70:2
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111:8,9 124:18

130:7 131:16

156:4 200:18,20

207:20,22 209:7

213:19 235:19

236:13,17

284:21

meeting 3:5 40:18

73:19 126:8,13

127:22 177:16

202:14 244:6

246:12 258:18

263:8 275:13

280:13,16,20

281:3,10,20

282:7 283:11

286:19 289:8

290:22 291:5

295:3,6

meetings 177:15

281:15 286:19

meets 63:13

Meg 2:15 4:3

76:17 85:7,8

98:9 100:11,12

179:5,18 210:19

211:12

249:13,22

267:20 268:6

269:12 280:9

294:21

MEI 51:11 75:15

76:9,22 78:3,7

79:7,8,16,19

80:3,4,7,12,16

82:18,19

83:14,15 89:14

90:2 92:19

93:4,6,12

94:13,16 101:13

104:2,20

105:1,9,16

106:6 123:4

124:15 129:8

130:5,9,18,21

131:16 132:12

140:10,21

141:15

144:14,19

145:16 152:14

153:1 154:2

159:7 192:10

227:19,20

228:21

235:19,21

236:2,17 237:20

239:5,8,15,19

240:4,7 242:7

257:16,22

258:2,4

263:14,17

271:22 276:1,22

279:9

MEI-10 48:21

49:2

MEI-50 49:2

MEIs 237:4 277:4

members 172:3

216:17

mention 169:2

mentioned 6:7

27:19 155:20

169:7 178:1

meshing 275:1

mess 151:10

messed 185:16

messy 237:10

met 83:21

meter 240:22

method 11:11

39:8

41:10,16,18

47:18 163:17

methodologies

201:12,17

methods 9:10 31:9

40:15 41:7

metric 7:5,6,13,17

30:19 47:4

63:12 65:16

72:10 75:9,21

76:7,8,11

77:2,4,7,14

79:21 82:20

83:13 84:5

85:12,14,20

86:4,18 88:9

99:13 100:7

102:17 103:14

104:14

105:20,21

117:10,16 118:4

119:5 121:16

124:6,7

129:1,8,9

136:20 141:7

145:10 146:14

147:3,11

164:11,18

165:14 167:1

210:10 238:3

244:8 253:17

256:13,17

257:20,21 258:8

261:7,13 281:21

289:4

metrics 5:15

75:13 81:20,21

82:13 83:3,10

85:9,11,13

105:13 123:19

127:14 152:19

293:13

metrics/test 98:8

microphone 53:11

128:5 155:18

265:9 268:9

microphones 3:11

middle 174:11

257:5,6

midnight 115:22

mid-trim 116:4

migrate 70:5

mike 150:17

162:15,20,21,22

172:13,15

173:20,22 174:2

194:7,11,12,17,

18 210:7

217:2,22 225:9

250:5 268:7

269:8 270:22

271:2,3 283:7

mileage 222:11

miles 220:7,8,18

millions 223:10

mind 106:11

163:12 171:2

178:2 219:21

235:18 236:10

263:2 274:13

286:9

mindset 291:6

mine 281:5

minimally 47:6

48:20 49:15

202:12

minimize 244:18

minimum 47:8

64:2 95:8

111:17 113:17

120:22 123:4

163:15 189:3,6

192:10 197:7
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203:19 204:2

205:1,6,7

209:4,6 212:10

213:21 214:6,9

236:13 247:4

282:12,15

minor 13:16

minute 9:16 54:3

59:15 96:19

100:5 169:16

minutes 122:3,5

123:16 161:2

235:14 264:20

266:11 291:11

misleading 210:9

misled 136:5

miss 51:13

mistake 24:14

mistakes 54:10

misunderstandin

g 198:13

mix 236:6

Mm-hmm 59:8

89:21 118:9

161:15 183:7

186:17 192:3

202:2 240:16

243:8 249:9

258:6 289:15,22

modeled 282:2

models 70:8 94:9

modular 236:5

moment 71:16

moments 142:22

Monday 277:12

278:2

money 69:8 151:2

152:9

month 280:19,22

281:8

morning 3:3 5:20

127:13 179:11

201:10 207:9

288:22

mostly 293:11

motor 2:3 7:7

9:1,17,18

11:4,12,13

12:10,13,18,19

13:4,15,20

14:2,9,12,19

15:2,7,9,10

16:4,7,19 17:1,3

18:16,19 19:4

20:11,12,17,18

21:6

23:10,11,18,22

24:1,2,4,8,22

25:2,4,11,17,19

26:3,9,11,12,19,

20

27:2,7,14,20,21,

22 28:1,5,6,7,8

29:16 30:20

31:1,20

32:1,2,4,6,7,12,

16,20 33:6,8

37:14,15,21

38:2,19,20

39:1,11

46:10,16

49:7,14 58:2,3

60:19 61:7,15

75:11 76:10

77:16 79:13

82:9,19 89:14

90:1 93:7

95:3,7,8,9,12,13

,18 96:22

103:15 110:7

113:15

114:21,22 115:4

119:10,16 120:3

121:9,19,20

124:7

130:11,12,13

134:21

137:12,13,14,16

152:17 153:10

154:1,3,4,6,18

161:17 163:18

164:2,14

165:1,4,22

166:3 172:19

186:15,19 187:3

188:9

189:2,3,5,6,16

190:2 191:13,18

192:1,2,5,19

193:1,2,19

195:1,12,14

196:15

197:1,7,8,10,14,

19 198:5,15

199:1,2,5,9

200:16,20

201:6,7 202:15

204:18

205:1,5,13,21,2

2

206:2,4,8,13,14,

15,16 207:7

208:11

209:4,6,9,10,14

211:2,5,19,20

212:7,11,20,22

213:10,13,21

217:7,9,11

219:17 221:7

222:17 228:19

229:21

230:15,16,20

231:2,14,18

233:1,2,7,10,11,

12,15,16,18,22

234:11,12

235:1,3,4

236:6,10 238:7

240:20,22

241:3,7,17

246:1,2,6,7

247:4,5,6,12,16

248:1 250:8,19

251:3,5,10,21

252:2,4,20

253:2,4 254:2

259:11 272:21

273:9,11,14,15

274:7,8,9,17

motor-driven

103:2

motor-pump

248:4

motors 7:1 8:19

11:14

14:16,17,22

21:9 27:19 31:7

61:21 77:16

79:22 81:8,10

195:13 201:2

219:6,8 233:9

234:4 237:8

247:10 248:3

249:17 250:3

251:15,18,22

252:7,8,10,14,2

1

mounted 248:16

mouth 202:19

move 24:9 34:13

35:4 40:12

63:17 73:7

117:13 219:3

229:14

253:17,21

265:21

moved 182:13
Capital Reporting Company

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185:6

moving 11:1

19:12 20:6

36:2,6 38:13

42:22 45:21

73:13 118:19

128:9 254:8

multiple 56:15

81:20,21 82:12

85:9,10,16,22

87:11 94:9,11

103:11 268:12

multiplied 13:9

multiply 90:3 92:2

194:11,12

267:16

multiplying 11:3

93:8

multi-pump

108:13

multi-pumps

108:14

multi-speed 20:18

myself 38:1

166:20 179:1

191:9,12

N

nail 262:11,20

naive 63:6

nameplate

230:1,2 233:3

narrow 158:7

national 2:17

4:15,18 73:2

223:8 224:10,22

225:1

natural 2:15 4:3

50:17

nature 22:4 90:20

170:13

Navigant 2:16

4:16 283:21

nearest 231:7

neat 134:21 159:3

necessarily 18:7

47:5 57:7 73:6

97:18 130:17

153:4 247:21

251:20 262:6

necessary 119:17

NEEA 2:14 4:7

50:14 101:12

153:21

negative 36:12

144:22 154:14

negotiate 66:16

67:14,22 76:22

Negotiated 1:10

3:6 295:7

negotiating 72:5

negotiation

292:20

NEMA 203:14

284:9,22

NEMA-BIS

275:15 286:10

292:13

neutral 30:7

newer 69:3,4,10

NGO 271:3,4

NGOs 215:20

nice 5:6 103:4

107:2 207:4

Nidec 2:3 4:19

night 107:17

115:20

nine 115:1 194:4

nitty-gritty 93:22

nodding 170:6

nomenclature

7:18 210:1

non 222:1 247:16

251:14 263:19

none 99:16 118:17

non-NEMA

251:14 252:7,8

non-regulated

248:1,3

non-VFD 224:19

Nope 203:5

normal 44:4,8,21

71:2 171:2

181:12,17

182:13 183:5

184:16,17

185:17 232:3

normalization

48:7,10 182:19

190:10 191:4

267:1

normalize 44:10

46:12 259:16,17

267:8

normalized 45:2,3

49:9 182:17

183:4

normally 138:1

184:10

Northwest

2:6,14,17 4:15

5:11

note 70:22 78:22

113:7 253:11

notes 6:10 60:7,8

243:13 296:6

nothing 195:8

231:15 280:7

noting 171:6

NPSH 133:10,18

134:1

NRDC 2:16

nudge 128:3

numerator 20:7

O

observation 107:4

obtain 100:8

obviously 41:15

45:1 82:22

101:3 142:14

171:17 287:2

occur 168:21

occurring 241:22

odd 251:3

odds 54:2

ODP 14:15 214:1

OEMs 252:21

offer 93:5,7 179:9

offering 238:6

offshore 69:15,19

70:1

OGC 83:9 101:21

oh 15:11 17:7,22

18:5 24:13

37:19 39:20

45:16 71:14

92:5 109:6

119:13 120:20

127:5,16 180:2

188:16 194:8,15

199:18 203:18
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213:4 220:3

222:2 239:14

254:2 255:3

257:6 269:12

274:4 285:19

290:11 293:8

OH1 9:15

okay 3:2 5:4

10:12,16 15:14

16:14 17:11,14

18:13,15,16

36:15 38:11,17

46:1,2 50:19

51:5,6,15

54:5,11,13

62:13,14 63:3

66:4 68:4,22

71:5 75:17

76:13,16

81:6,17 85:3,4

90:9 91:9 92:15

96:7,8 99:11

101:19 110:18

113:14 114:8

116:6 118:13,19

119:4,9,10,18,1

9 120:3,17

122:2,5,11,17

126:3,14 128:7

133:10 140:3

142:7 143:1

152:5 156:14

157:11

160:10,11,12

161:4 162:2,3

166:15,16

169:15,17

170:9,18 171:4

172:4,5,7,18

173:15,17

176:13,16 177:7

179:3

180:14,17,20

182:1,15 184:4

185:18 186:6,8

187:4 188:2,5

191:3 193:5

194:6 195:22

196:3,5,11,15

197:22 198:9

199:4,7,11,18

200:3 204:22

205:4,10,11,20

206:3,6,12

207:1,10 208:12

209:21,22

210:3,17 211:8

212:18 213:8

214:21

215:1,7,8,15,19,

20 216:7,15

218:9,18

225:10,21

226:3,7,14,19

227:1,12 229:18

230:3 232:18

239:21 242:2

244:1 245:12

250:8 251:19

252:1,4,6,9,20,2

2 253:7,14

262:1 263:12,22

264:9,20 265:13

266:7 268:6,8

269:12

271:4,10,11,18,

19 272:15,16

274:5,8

275:9,22 276:19

278:1,10

279:3,13

280:4,5 281:1

282:18

285:15,19

287:10,15,22

288:10,13

290:1,2,4,21

291:9,19 294:20

295:2

old 48:16 179:21

239:21

Omega 43:22

one-off 222:20

ones 45:20 111:22

125:16 182:4

217:21 225:18

243:15 251:4

279:20 281:17

ongoing 287:4

online 204:7

onto 220:3 280:11

Oop 37:6

open 124:9 134:8

203:16,20 247:7

opening 263:2

opens 69:15

operate 125:18

131:3,9 133:4

134:13,18

135:14,22 136:3

143:12

147:14,19 150:4

157:21 158:2

184:9 259:6

operated 137:15

224:13

operating 53:6,9

86:15 100:19

102:13,20

131:4,7,21

132:8 133:1,6

134:14 135:21

136:2 143:16

147:13,21,22

157:2,8,9

184:10 224:18

269:1,2

operation 84:1

88:17

opinion 61:5

171:3 238:5

opportunity 92:14

152:18

opposed 12:10

46:17 154:5

182:17 234:13

248:9

optimize 88:6

option 6:22 7:9

8:15 10:20

30:16 32:15

33:5 41:9 84:17

85:21 99:19

153:5 200:21

213:18 248:8,11

options 7:3 8:16

9:19 18:14,17

20:19 30:5 31:4

32:13,15

41:6,11,14

43:14 46:22

48:8 51:19

71:19 77:6

81:14 87:5

201:9 202:1

248:18 254:11

268:4

oranges 77:8

174:19

order 2:1 64:6

72:16,22 73:7

90:20 133:13

203:8 211:2

212:21 219:18

268:4 278:4

original 163:5,6,7

192:18 265:4

originally 164:17
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others 55:19 98:7

133:2 151:13

152:6 170:3

185:3 266:4

otherwise 6:14

91:1

ought 6:1 124:15

212:14 236:19

263:18

ours 151:13 152:6

ourselves 54:13

68:11 215:18

outlet 103:21

outlined 192:17

output 33:15

47:21 61:1

220:22

overall 108:4

139:3,8,10

174:4 286:1

overcomplicate

186:12

overload 107:20

overlook 54:19

overlooked

55:4,14

oversized

12:14,15 100:17

147:17

231:15,22

233:19 246:7

oversizing 27:20

61:7 62:8

overspeeding

21:16 255:14

overview 6:19

63:1 292:3

owners 98:1

P

p.m 295:5

P1 28:22

P2 28:22

Pacific 2:17 4:14

package 39:1

packaged 25:4

packet 5:21,22 6:9

packing 235:11

page 134:8 176:2

203:7

paid 54:10

pain 71:11

pair 76:9 197:9

202:15

paired 11:16

95:18 231:2

252:7

pairing 15:8

particular 52:20

65:15 70:8 71:7

85:21 110:3

112:13,20 150:3

157:4 254:21

255:20 288:17

parties 41:9

part-load 13:5

240:6 277:5

279:18

part-loading 9:2

partly 169:4,5

pass 51:14

52:10,13 239:12

passes 93:6

password 178:6

179:11,21

180:6,10

past 54:9 292:2

patch 261:4

path 191:2

patient 49:19

114:13 146:17

Patterson 2:7 3:16

51:3 157:7

192:7

Paul 2:8 3:13

63:19,20 66:2

163:10

191:6,7,8

203:10,11

214:21 227:2

229:10,11,19

231:11 232:12

249:10 290:21

pay 69:9

payback 67:20

292:17

pays 6:2

peak 53:3,6

138:15 148:9,10

156:18 157:1,6

peaking 138:19

peel 199:9

pen 17:9,11,20

18:14

Pentair 2:13 4:20

155:19 167:6

240:13 251:1

268:10

people 55:5 62:8

75:20 92:5

98:18,19 107:20

126:19 133:17

142:18 143:4,11

145:13 147:19

154:9 157:2

160:14 173:3

190:12 215:22

221:15 249:18

259:1 267:2

per 7:17 9:16 14:7

15:5 16:1,21

20:5,8 23:13

24:7,12,18

25:3,9 27:8

30:20 32:5

36:20 39:5

40:21 43:8

46:11 48:16

52:9 60:21 61:5

62:6 64:3,14

65:4 67:2 78:8

79:16,19 80:19

81:15 83:15

92:19 96:19

97:4,21

101:12,17

102:16 103:19

104:5 105:1,11

106:6

132:6,9,15,17

144:4,14,17

145:16 149:7,9

155:11,21

161:13,16,18

170:22 185:9

198:16 220:7,8

228:10 229:5

231:1,4 233:7

239:5,9,16,20

242:6 244:13,21

256:13

257:20,22 258:8

268:2 272:3

273:3

perceived 165:8

percent 8:4,5,20

9:18 10:10
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14:6 15:7,9

20:10 21:4,15

23:4,7,8,10,12

26:1,2,4,10,14,1

5,20 27:4

28:9,10,12

29:6,7,9,14

33:22 34:7,9,10

36:3,19

37:12,13

38:5,6,7,21

39:13,14

42:4,5,8,9,10,21

43:1,6,7,12,16

44:6,12,16,17

45:7 46:16

54:20 55:8,9,10

56:19 66:9,10

68:19,20

71:4,10 77:18

95:7,9 96:22

108:9,20

113:17,19

115:14

132:5,7,20

133:12 134:2

135:10

138:3,4,15

139:1 144:18,19

145:18 147:5

148:5

149:4,10,11,16

151:4 156:18

157:3,10,11,22

158:16 160:2,8

161:14 162:17

163:4 167:22

174:10,11

181:16

182:6,7,8,16

183:20,22

184:1,2,17

185:2 186:16

190:13,14,15

196:16,19,20

203:12 205:14

206:3 210:11

223:12,13

226:1,12,16

227:8 228:20

229:2 231:6,14

232:14

234:10,12,14

241:15 251:2

253:22 254:4,5

257:1 260:9

269:1

274:1,5,6,9,10,1

1,22 276:5

279:19

percentage

25:16,18 74:10

96:14,17 97:7

98:20 116:15

125:8 228:4

286:5

percentages

243:16

perception 108:7

perfect 18:15

27:21 162:15,16

perfectly 29:6

78:14 163:1

perform 64:22

performance

10:21 11:4,5

32:17,21 33:17

38:15 43:16

47:8 63:13

64:13 72:11,20

73:16,20 86:19

87:11 88:4,6

91:3 95:21 96:4

103:22 104:5

105:22 119:8

120:5 228:17

230:12

performing 106:8

perhaps 92:19

185:2,17 229:7

233:21 266:4

period 54:15

115:3 235:22

237:5 251:18

periods 67:20

permit 266:5

permutations

189:14

244:14,16

PERs 30:18 62:8

97:2 160:18

person 294:11

personal 61:5

83:4

Personally 60:15

perspective 71:17

87:16

Petrillo-Groh

2:10 5:1

phase

270:12,13,21

271:17 292:22

philosophical

258:15

phone 151:21

physical 41:18

92:5 233:2

pick 44:9,20 51:19

55:15 79:8

84:21 117:18

177:10 247:6

251:22 294:11

picked 206:20

picking 68:18

69:1 212:9

picture 53:20 54:4

57:6 76:21

96:12 238:11,15

piece 7:13 59:3,4

93:4 105:4

143:12

pieces 85:20 100:7

103:11 282:14

pipe 168:20

pipes 168:18

pitfalls 136:8

plan 17:22 276:20

281:10

planning 277:4

284:7 285:8

plant 111:15

play 56:16 57:13

68:15,17 87:6

139:4 202:3

214:2 240:6

played 115:16

players 70:15

please 5:10 6:13

65:12 142:6

196:3 200:5

250:11 268:8

pleased 5:8

plenty 102:15

272:13

plug 23:2 38:3

65:2,3 80:8

90:18 94:21

95:8,12 96:3

99:13 166:5

242:5 244:10

plug-and 90:22

plugged 11:9
Capital Reporting Company

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23:17 24:3

36:18 37:6

plugging 13:6

90:17

plus 20:10 27:2

32:12 33:6 49:7

58:2,3 61:14,15

71:20,21 82:20

137:12,13,14

153:10

163:18,19 164:2

172:19 189:5

192:1,2 197:8

198:14 205:1,21

212:11

219:6,8,16,17

233:1 251:2

287:12

point 10:10 12:20

14:14 15:19,21

20:22

21:2,14,17

23:7,8

26:4,10,22

35:15,22 36:8,9

37:16,18 38:4

40:15,19

42:1,10

43:5,13,17

44:12 48:5,6

52:19 53:20

55:1 60:11 64:4

72:10 78:1

86:19,21 104:16

105:19 108:18

112:10 113:4

115:10 124:12

131:15,19

132:7,8 133:14

134:2

135:5,10,13

136:13 137:21

138:16 139:21

142:21 144:18

145:18 147:1,5

149:20 151:8

153:1 154:11

157:4 158:10

162:22 165:8

167:15 171:7,11

178:4 181:17

185:4,22

194:1,3 209:15

212:20 219:2

223:12 224:9

235:6 236:4

238:5,18 242:20

243:5,12 251:5

254:21 255:10

264:17 269:17

272:4 275:4

280:7 294:3,18

Pointer 18:13

points 7:3 8:1,8

9:4 10:2,3,22

11:9 12:11 13:1

16:20 23:3,16

26:13 31:21,22

33:11,16

34:18,21 35:2

36:4 39:13,15

42:3,5,15

43:17,19

44:15,17,19

45:6 46:11

52:17 73:14

74:4 85:16,18

86:1,5 87:12,19

90:19,22 91:2,4

94:11 106:9

119:9

120:9,11,13,16

124:19 131:16

136:15,16

139:21 140:2

141:13 144:17

149:22

150:6,9,12

151:15,16

154:10 155:3

156:21

181:9,10,13,15

182:20 193:9,14

228:7 230:14

239:6 240:4

243:17 244:12

254:4,18

255:6,15

256:10,15

262:11

263:13,14,17

264:16 265:5

273:10 293:14

pole 203:20 214:2

poles 214:5,10

polishing 73:16

Pool 158:15

poorly 134:15

population 98:21

portion 110:10

130:21 132:1

position

136:12,14

positive 36:11

170:15

possibilities 104:8

247:20

possibility 101:17

127:14 129:16

possible 60:17

70:14 87:17

97:8 101:2,12

136:7 138:5

140:9 141:4

144:9 160:8

166:19

240:15,16

244:15 250:14

257:1 262:11

281:12,16 285:7

289:11

possibly 131:11

151:1 275:14

potential

64:12,19,21

66:12 67:16

72:17 73:1,8

112:12 117:5,17

142:2 165:15

234:22 248:10

potentially 11:4

79:6,20 112:18

146:6 235:3

277:20

Potts 2:11 4:10

110:19

183:1,3,8,10

184:4,7 185:21

186:3,6

200:2,5,7

201:20 202:3,6

power 2:6 5:11

8:15 13:3,21,22

14:2 16:19

19:7,11,14,15

21:11,21

22:2,3,19

23:2,5,15 24:4,9

26:16 27:5,6,12

28:21

29:1,10,16,22

31:13,20 32:6

33:14,15 37:17

38:9,12

47:1,5,17,20

48:13,19

49:10,12 56:7

64:15,17 65:1

90:19 91:6

94:11 119:5,7

167:9 169:14
Capital Reporting Company

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211:1 229:20,22

230:13 231:6

241:1 244:11

246:19

PowerPoint 18:7

292:5

PowerPoints 17:8

19:8

Powers 2:12 4:1

17:8,13

53:12,16 54:6

57:12 68:5,6

70:17 74:16,20

106:14 114:16

115:9 116:18

127:20 128:6,8

132:18

137:17,18

139:22 150:19

158:8 162:14

163:6,8 173:19

175:9,16 176:18

177:2 185:11

190:4,5

196:3,6,7,11

199:14

204:11,12,13,22

205:4,7,10,20

206:3,10,17,20

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208:12 209:9

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