Date: May 4, 2015

Case: ASRAC Miscellaneous Refrigeration Working Group Meeting

Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc.

Phone: 202-347-3700

Fax: 202-737-3638

Email: info@acefederal.com

Internet: www.acefederal.com
ASRAC Miscellaneous Refrigeration Working Group Meeting

May 4, 2015

202-347-3700 Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. 866-928-6509

Page 1

U.S. DEPARTMENT OF ENERGY PUBLIC MEETING

 ASRAC MISCELLANEOUS REFRIGERATION

 WORKING GROUP MEETING

 U.S. Department of Energy

 Forrestal Building, Room 8E-089

 1000 Independence Avenue, SW

 Washington, DC 20585

 9:00 a.m.

 Monday, May 4, 2015
ASRAC Miscellaneous Refrigeration Working Group Meeting

May 4, 2015

202-347-3700 Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. 866-928-6509

Page 2

1 Appearances for Department of Energy Meeting

2

3 Javier Ramirez, Facilator, Federal Mediation &

4 Conciliation Service

5 David W. Huang, Federal Mediation & Conciliation

6 Service

7 Sarah Butler, DOE

8 Joseph Hagerman, DOE

9 Brenda Edwards, DOE

10 Timothy Ballo, Earthjustice

11 Bill A. Brown, GE Home & Business Solutions

12 Jennifer Cleary, Association of Home Appliance

13 Manufacturers (AHAM)

14 Mary Dane, Traulsen

15 Charles Hon, True Manufacturing

16 Joanna Mauer, Appliance Standards Awareness Project

17 (ASAP)

18 Nate Mouw, Whirlpool

19 Steven J. Rosenstock, Edison Electric Institute

20 Stephen Schaefer, Hoshizai America, Inc.

21 Richard F. Topping, Sub-Zero Group, Inc.

22 Roland Marciniak, U-Line Corp
ASRAC Miscellaneous Refrigeration Working Group Meeting

May 4, 2015

202-347-3700 Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. 866-928-6509

Page 3

1 P R O C E E D I N G S

2 (9:00 a.m.)

3 MR. HAGERMAN: Welcome everybody. I'm Joe

4 Hagerman, Department of Energy. This is obviously a

5 very important rule to us and a very important set of

6 activities that we have planned for today as we get

7 ready to go through first official start of the ASRAC

8 Working Group for the Miscellaneous Refrigeration

9 Products.

10 I'm sorry I'm a little late. We're trying

11 to get the Ethics lawyer down here so he can give

12 everybody a quick little ethics briefing as it

13 relates to this working group, so he should be here

14 any second, and he's also going to be joined by

15 another General Counsel employee as well. So, thank

16 you for being here. Appreciate your time. 

17 Appreciate you know all of our hard work that we have

18 to do to get the rule out within four meetings.

19 The ASRAC gave us four official meetings

20 to do this, with a potential extension of two more,

21 so six total, but I think we can all agree that we'll

22 get it done well before that, right, so we can enjoy
ASRAC Miscellaneous Refrigeration Working Group Meeting

May 4, 2015

202-347-3700 Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. 866-928-6509

Page 4

1 the summer. So thank you for coming out here and

2 let's have a good, constructive discussion today.

3 MS. HOFFMAN: Good morning. Can you hear

4 me? I'm Eileen Baras Hoffman, one of your

5 facilitators. And somebody said how come we have

6 three? Well, you won't have three all the time. I

7 said it's because it's a difficult group, but that's

8 not true. 

9 We're here from the Federal Mediation and

10 Conciliation Service, and I'm co-facilitating with my

11 colleague Javier Ramirez from Chicago, and we'll

12 explain our role; but we also bring new people in to

13 sort of see this process and that's Isael from

14 California. So, he's going to be learning on this

15 group, so we're hoping you're going to be an

16 important model on that score.

17 Here's our agenda. And what we're going

18 to try to do is we've got a lot to do in two days. 

19 We're going to have an introduction, go around the

20 room and hear -- does everyone know everyone? Good. 

21 Then we'll have an introduction, okay, and a little

22 bit of background on what the reg negs process is. 
ASRAC Miscellaneous Refrigeration Working Group Meeting

May 4, 2015

202-347-3700 Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. 866-928-6509

Page 5

1 Have any of you been in reg negs before, negotiated

2 rulemaking?

3 (Show of hands.)

4 MS. HOFFMAN: So, some of you have and

5 some of you haven't, so we'll be looking at that. We

6 can cherry pick what worked and learn from what

7 didn't.

8 Ground rules, that's a critical thing for

9 this morning. We're going to talk about how we

10 behave and how we work with each other. The ground

11 rules are going to be very important. Schedule

12 setting, we're all very busy people, right? You

13 wouldn't be on this negotiated rulemaking if you

14 weren't busy and very fierce and professional

15 advocates for your organizations and cause.

16 What we're going to try to do, and this is

17 something one of -- we have to really have to

18 mediating is getting the right dates so that we can

19 all meet and be productive and reach our deadline by

20 the end of August, so we've got an accelerate

21 timetable.

22 Then we'll have a discussion of the scope
ASRAC Miscellaneous Refrigeration Working Group Meeting

May 4, 2015

202-347-3700 Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. 866-928-6509

Page 6

1 of definitions critical to any negotiated rulemaking,

2 discussion of test procedures, standard settings,

3 other items, and wrap up. We'll also have a role for

4 the public. This is a public meeting. We have some

5 public in the back who will introduce themselves when

6 we go around the room so you'll know who's there.

7 We also have people on GoTo Meeting, and

8 we'll be having time for them to weigh in as well,

9 and we have Navigant and other staff here as well. 

10 So, you'll know who's in the room.

11 Before I go to the purpose, though, I

12 think it would be good if we went around and saw who

13 is here. So, if we could start with you, Dan, if you

14 could say your name and where you're from.

15 MR. ORMAN: I'm Dan Orman.

16 MR. HAGERMAN: Just real quick. I hate to

17 interrupt here. Why don't everybody introduce

18 themselves and also make opening statements as well

19 in case you want to say anything about the rule and

20 how important it is or any opening statement you'd

21 like to make.

22 MS. HOFFMAN: Can we have a timer on that?
ASRAC Miscellaneous Refrigeration Working Group Meeting

May 4, 2015

202-347-3700 Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. 866-928-6509

Page 7

1 MR. HAGERMAN: You won't need one.

2 MS. HOFFMAN: No, but that's helpful. 

3 Really, let us know where you're coming from. Thank

4 you.

5 MR. ORMAN: I'm Dan Orman with Haier

6 American. I've been there since October, over 25

7 years with Whirlpool prior to that in refrigeration. 

8 So, this is my first go around in the negotiated

9 regulations process.

10 So, Haier American is selling wine cellar

11 products and some icemaker products that are produced

12 in China. That's the extent of our involvement and

13 our interest in it.

14 MR. HAGERMAN: I have one question for

15 you, Dan; do you make any thermoelectric type of wine

16 cellar units?

17 MR. ORMAN: We're not making any in China. 

18 They're ROMs that we're getting those from.

19 MR. HAGERMAN: All right, but you sell

20 some units under the hybrid. Okay.

21 MR. BALLO: Tim Ballo with Earth Justice. 

22 I'm an attorney. And I think like most of the energy
ASRAC Miscellaneous Refrigeration Working Group Meeting

May 4, 2015

202-347-3700 Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. 866-928-6509

Page 8

1 efficiency advocates in the room I'm here because I

2 want to save the maximum amount of energy that I can.

3 I think my particular focus coming from a

4 Clean Air Act enforcement background is ensuring that

5 we have a level playing field, that whatever

6 standards we establish, whatever definitions we set

7 are sufficient clear that they can be readily

8 enforced by the Department and ensuring that we get

9 that part of it right.

10 MR. MOUW: Nathan Mouw from Whirlpool

11 Corporation. Whirlpool sells and distributes

12 icemakers, wine chillers, and beverage centers, so

13 that's our interest in coming to a fair rule on

14 those, amongst the other products. Thanks.

15 MR. MARCINIAK: my name is Roland

16 Marciniak from U-Line Corporation, fairly new product

17 for myself. I worked 25 plus years in transient

18 voltage surge suppressions, so last year in

19 refrigeration became a bit of a new area for me

20 working with compliance, so things are pretty similar

21 no matter where you're working in compliance trying

22 to satisfy ULCSA global products. So, we make
ASRAC Miscellaneous Refrigeration Working Group Meeting

May 4, 2015

202-347-3700 Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. 866-928-6509

Page 9

1 under-counter refrigerators at U-Line and I'm here to

2 learn more than anything else.

3 MS. DANE: Hi. My name is Mary Dane. 

4 This is my second neg regs. I'm with Traulsen out of

5 Forth Worth, Texas. We are interested in a fair

6 rulemaking and we are very hopeful that some good

7 definitions. Like Tim, we would like to see some

8 things defined and defined in ways that average

9 people can understand what rules are being applied

10 to. Thank you.

11 MR. SCHAEFER: Good morning. This is

12 Stephen Schaefer with Hoshizaki America. I've been

13 with the company for 18 years. We deal with

14 commercial-size icemaker and we also deal with

15 refrigerators and freezers commercial-size. We also

16 have a couple under counter ice machine around 40

17 pounds. 

18 We're interesting in seeing that we have a

19 fair standard. We've been Energy Start Partner of

20 the Year three years running, so we'd like to make

21 sure that energy efficiency is on the forefront, but

22 we want to make sure that it's all fair for all the
ASRAC Miscellaneous Refrigeration Working Group Meeting

May 4, 2015

202-347-3700 Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. 866-928-6509

Page 10

1 manufacturers and for all the jobs are at stake. 

2 Thank you.

3 MR. HON: I'm Charlie Hon with True

4 Manufacturing. We have quite a few products in the

5 same categories being discussed here. I am a member

6 of the ASRAC parent committee as well as Jennifer

7 setting next to me. We are the representatives in

8 the committee who report back to the principal

9 committee. And I've been with True Manufacturing for

10 18 years and in refrigeration for 27.

11 MS. CLEARY: Jen Cleary with the

12 Association of Home Appliance Manufacturers, and we

13 represent manufacturers of compressor-based products

14 in this rulemaking, so I do just want to be clear

15 about that distinction. Our members really don't

16 produce the non-compressor products, so our comments

17 will be limited there. And really we want to ensure

18 that the rule is clear and that the test procedure is

19 consistent.

20 MR. KUCH: Hi everybody. My name is Chris

21 Kuch with Southern California Edison with the Codes

22 and Standards team, statewide team. We advocate for
ASRAC Miscellaneous Refrigeration Working Group Meeting

May 4, 2015

202-347-3700 Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. 866-928-6509

Page 11

1 cost-effective energy efficiency at the California

2 level as well as DOE, obviously. So, we definitely

3 want to see a clear standard that is cost-effective

4 and saves energy. So, thank you.

5 MS. MAUER: I'm Joanna Mauer with the

6 Appliance Standards Awareness Project. We do

7 advocacy work on energy efficiency standards for

8 appliances, commercial and industrial equipment and

9 lighting, and we're interested in strong,

10 cost-effective efficiency standards.

11 MR. BROWN: Hi. My name is Bill Brown. 

12 I'm with GE Appliances. I'm the technical director

13 of Energy Systems. I've had 28 years with GE and

14 have been in the standards side since 2001. I've

15 been involved in many ANARF1 publications on the

16 Technical Subcommittee for the Canadian C300

17 standards. I'm also the U.S. technical advisor for

18 the IUC Committee on Energy Performance --

19 refrigerator performance and energy.

20 And I've been involved in global

21 harmonization of the test procedures, so looking to

22 get one test procedure. You could test the product
ASRAC Miscellaneous Refrigeration Working Group Meeting

May 4, 2015

202-347-3700 Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. 866-928-6509

Page 12

1 and then sell it anywhere in the world, so looking to

2 see how we can harmonize both the IEC standards that

3 we have and what we have for DOE and things that are

4 coming out of this rulemaking as well.

5 MR. TOPPING: Good morning. I'm Dick

6 Topping. This company here is a reflection of an

7 employment arrangement I have, but I do represent in

8 the major appliance area the Sub-Zero Group Company

9 in Madison, Wisconsin. Sub-Zero manufacturers you

10 know premium built-in refrigeration and cooking

11 equipment, one of the first companies actually to

12 develop and build wine storage products.

13 And I have been part of the last two

14 informal negotiations, which lead to the refrigerator

15 standards in 2001 and 2014.

16 MR. HAGERMAN: Again, I'm Joe Hagerman,

17 DOE. I'm a senior advisor within the Billings Group,

18 and I'm responsible for this Miscellaneous

19 Refrigeration Product rule. Let's move back to

20 consultants back there.

21 MR. WATSON: I'm Troy Watson. I'm with

22 Navigant Consulting. We support on the analysis side
ASRAC Miscellaneous Refrigeration Working Group Meeting

May 4, 2015

202-347-3700 Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. 866-928-6509

Page 13

1 of things some of the engineering analysis and market

2 analysis.

3 MS. RICH: Judith Rich from Navigant

4 Consulting. Troy summarized it pretty well why we're

5 here.

6 MR. YOUNG: Hello. My name is Scott

7 Young. I'm from Lawrence Berkeley National Lab, and

8 we work more on the economic side of the analysis.

9 MR. RAMERIZ: And let's go to the folks in

10 the back there. David can start.

11 MR. HUANG: David Huang, FMCS, here to

12 observe the process.

13 MS. PONTILLO: My name is Pam Pontillo,

14 and I'm with the Department of Energy, Office of

15 Conflict Prevention and Resolution.

16 MR. BOSWELL: Wade Boswell, DOE's Office

17 of Hearings and Appeals.

18 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Steve Rosenstock, Edison

19 Electric Institute, also here to observe and we're

20 kind of especially interested in the scope of the

21 rulemaking. When you say miscellaneous refrigeration

22 that could be a very big umbrella, everything from
ASRAC Miscellaneous Refrigeration Working Group Meeting

May 4, 2015

202-347-3700 Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. 866-928-6509

Page 14

1 indoor to outdoor products like propane refrigerators

2 for camping and so there's a huge umbrella there. 

3 So, I'm kind of curious in terms of what the eventual

4 scope is going to be. Thank you.

5 MR. STEM: Mike Stem with Intertech. I'm

6 just here for the test procedure side of things.

7 MR. ARMSTRONG: Hi. I'm Ashley Armstrong

8 with DOE.

9 MS. HOFFMAN: I think we have about nine

10 folks, is that right, from the public that are online

11 as well.

12 MR. RAMIREZ: Yes. And my name is Javier

13 Ramirez. I'm with Federal Mediation. And I want to

14 go over just a couple of logistical things while I

15 have the mike. One important thing is what I call

16 one functions or breaks, right. We'll call them

17 whenever -- I take that back. You'll call them

18 whenever you need them. So, whenever you need a

19 break, just give us a signal, right? Whatever that

20 signal is and we'll make sure that we give you enough

21 breaks, okay, so we'll take them as often as we need

22 them, but probably about 10 minutes each.
ASRAC Miscellaneous Refrigeration Working Group Meeting

May 4, 2015

202-347-3700 Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. 866-928-6509

Page 15

1 Lunch we don't know exactly what time

2 we're going to be breaking for lunch. We hope to get

3 through all this preliminary stuff and then take a

4 lunch break and then really get into the meat and

5 potatoes of it, so whenever we get through it then

6 that's when we'll break.

7 You all I'm sure will do far better with

8 the microphones than I do, but when you speak turn

9 them on so that way the court reporter can make sure

10 he captures everything and then done so that he

11 doesn't get any of the side chatter and turn off. 

12 When you want to speak, one system that we see that

13 works pretty well, just put your table tent up on the

14 side like that until we get to you and we'll try to

15 keep track and we'll just try to get everybody in

16 order that they've up their table tent. We might get

17 a little mixed up, depending on everyone puts them up

18 at the same time. And when you're done, just go

19 ahead sit it back down.

20 Parking lot, we put a parking lot up on

21 the door over there so that way if there's an issue

22 that isn't quite on for what we're here for we'll go
ASRAC Miscellaneous Refrigeration Working Group Meeting

May 4, 2015

202-347-3700 Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. 866-928-6509

Page 16

1 ahead and throw it into the parking lot. There might

2 even be advisory recommendations that may go forward,

3 but whatever is not quite what we're here for we'll

4 throw up in the parking lot if we need to, or for

5 something that we need to get back to. All right.

6 MR. ISAEL: My name is Hermosillo Isael. 

7 I work for Federal Mediation. I here kind of to

8 observe the process and eventually help you guys out

9 as the months proceed, and also to take notes as we

10 go along.

11 MR. HAGERMAN: Joe Hagerman, DOE. Let me

12 jut remind everybody before you speak restate your

13 name and where you're from as well so that we can

14 have it on the transcript. And since this is a

15 pretty fast process, once we get a transcript back

16 I'm not going to edit it or anything. I'm just going

17 to send it out to everybody and post it as is, so if

18 there's misspellings or anything like that just

19 forgive me, but I'm going err on the side of getting

20 it published as soon as possible.

21 MS. HOFFMAN: It would help if everyone

22 gave a business card to our person here.
ASRAC Miscellaneous Refrigeration Working Group Meeting

May 4, 2015

202-347-3700 Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. 866-928-6509

Page 17

1 MR. RAMIREZ: You can take care of that

2 during one of the functions.

3 MS. HOFFMAN: One of the breaks.

4 MR. RAMIREZ: One of the functions, right.

5 MS. HOFFMAN: Right. We'll also try to

6 schedule a break so everyone can go at the same time,

7 and the restrooms are that way. And some of you have

8 already discovered Dunkin Donuts. I don't get paid

9 for that, but they do have coffee downstairs. Okay,

10 do you want to handle the overview ASRAC?

11 MR. HAGERMAN: I will. I'm going to give

12 a quick overview of the ASRAC process or what ASRAC

13 is, and then Eileen is going to go through the rules

14 of our consensus and everything. All right. Thank

15 you.

16 So, in 2012, DOE established a federal

17 advisory Committee called ASRAC, Appliance Standards

18 and Rulemaking Federal Advisory Committee. ASRAC,

19 obviously, was chartered by DOE. It's completely

20 advisory in nature and focus on appliance standards

21 and rulemaking. Next slide.

22 (Slide.)
ASRAC Miscellaneous Refrigeration Working Group Meeting

May 4, 2015

202-347-3700 Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. 866-928-6509

Page 18

1 MR. HAGERMAN: This is quite literally

2 going to be 20 second on ASRAC. As needed, ASRAC

3 will vote to form working groups. So, obviously,

4 they voted to form this MREF Working Group in which

5 case they tasked us to work together to develop test

6 procedures and a standard for the miscellaneous

7 refrigeration products.

8 DOE may withdraw from ASRAC at any time. 

9 I don't think that we've ever had a working group

10 withdrawn nor have we ever had a working group that

11 didn't come up with a term sheet and we've never had

12 a case that if they did come up with a term sheet

13 that the term sheet didn't, one-for-one, become the

14 final rule. So, obviously, DOE is very interested,

15 invested, and working together in this forum to

16 resolve this rule as much as possible.

17 In the event a consensus recommendation is

18 not reached for a particular task within a given

19 timeframe, ASRAC will let DOE know that no

20 recommendation was generated. So, that is always the

21 recourse there. Again, that's never happened before. 

22 ASRAC tasked us to come up with this test procedure
ASRAC Miscellaneous Refrigeration Working Group Meeting

May 4, 2015

202-347-3700 Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. 866-928-6509

Page 19

1 in the rule within four meetings, hopefully, over

2 four months. It did give us an extension of two

3 meetings after that, but we have to ask for them. 

4 Let's not be in that category. Let's not ask. Let's

5 just get this done in three meetings, right? That's

6 it.

7 (Slide.)

8 MS. HOFFMAN: Okay. This is the small

9 infomercial for our agency, the Federal Mediation and

10 Conciliation Service. We were established actually

11 when there were a lot of labor disputes because we

12 had some skills in dealing with conflict. And since

13 then, it's been expanded to deal with the government

14 and regulations and a lot of different things. And

15 so the Administrative Dispute Resolution Act of 1990

16 and 1996 basically named us to help other agencies

17 work on various missions that they have in terms of

18 an ADR alternative dispute resolution process and

19 that's why we're here.

20 We've facilitated over 50 of these

21 negotiated rulemakings. And we actually were the

22 very first one in the 1980s for flight and duty time. 
ASRAC Miscellaneous Refrigeration Working Group Meeting

May 4, 2015

202-347-3700 Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. 866-928-6509

Page 20

1 Not all of them have been a success, but our work

2 with DOE has, and our most recent one was

3 manufactured housing, which was last summer.

4 (Slide.)

5 MS. HOFFMAN: and that just mentions some

6 of the things we've done. And what is negotiated

7 rulemaking? Well, for those of you who aren't as

8 familiar, it's basically a process where the

9 stakeholders, the key stakeholders here can reach an

10 agreement and work together for what might be a draft

11 rule. And the hope is that that draft rule, when it

12 goes out for notice and comment, won't have that many

13 because all the comments have been actually shared

14 with the agency and with each other. The hope is

15 that it's a more efficient, a clearer, a better rule

16 than through the normal process.

17 And basically, the rule, hopefully, is the

18 one that you've been thinking about. From each of

19 the comments that we've heard you're looking for a

20 clear, fair, energy efficient type of rule that

21 people can understand, that can be globally

22 translated, et cetera, and so we're going to work
ASRAC Miscellaneous Refrigeration Working Group Meeting

May 4, 2015

202-347-3700 Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. 866-928-6509

Page 21

1 with you on that.

2 (Slide.)

3 MS. HOFFMAN: And then, basically, it

4 doesn't replace the agency, as you've heard from Joe. 

5 The agency has to adopt it. I mean but since the

6 agency is a major player in this process. And

7 through the ASRAC mechanism it should be able to do

8 that, but no 100 percent guarantee on that.

9 (Slide.)

10 MS. HOFFMAN: This just mentions why we're

11 here in terms of the Administrative Procedure Act and

12 others. And this just basically defines what's a

13 facilitator. Probably all of you are facilitators in

14 your organizations already or your middle children,

15 so you have to deal with conflict both ways. But

16 basically, we're here because of the Negotiated

17 Rulemaking Act does ask for a facilitator in a

18 negotiated rulemaking process, and we're here as

19 impartial.

20 We care about energy. Don't get us wrong,

21 but we have no stake in this particular rule and

22 we're here to use our good offices to try to help you
ASRAC Miscellaneous Refrigeration Working Group Meeting

May 4, 2015

202-347-3700 Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. 866-928-6509

Page 22

1 reach an agreement, but it's not an agreement at any

2 price. It's an agreement that you can understand and

3 feel you can support on that score.

4 So, I think I'm almost done.

5 (Slide.)

6 MS. HOFFMAN: This just goes on and on

7 about being the chair of it. And we're everything. 

8 We're the coach. We try to work with you and

9 basically assist in generating options, but most of

10 the options are going to come from you since you're

11 the experts. And we have also data analysis coming

12 from Navigant and others, so the hope that through

13 this process you'll get the best data, the best

14 analysis, and the best rule.

15 (Slide.)

16 MS. HOFFMAN: And then we're going to

17 facilitate the meeting and we're looking at your body

18 language. Right now we've got you all looking, or

19 maybe you're thinking about the break or lunch or

20 something, but we do know you're here and we're going

21 to look at signals to see how we can be most

22 effective. And that might mean -- this is a public
ASRAC Miscellaneous Refrigeration Working Group Meeting

May 4, 2015

202-347-3700 Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. 866-928-6509

Page 23

1 meeting, but occasionally we might talk to somebody

2 outside the meeting or inside, whatever. And if

3 someone doesn't understand something, we'll make sure

4 -- we sometimes play the dummy and say could you

5 explain that a little differently. We do that. We

6 might not understand it, but we also do that because

7 we sense that someone in the room doesn't and our job

8 is to make sure everybody is on the same, even level

9 on that score.

10 (Slide.)

11 MS. HOFFMAN: And then this is our

12 obligation, which is to make sure that the process is

13 perceived as fair, which is I think what we're

14 hearing here. So, the participants, now for you we

15 also say that by entering into this process, by

16 volunteering and by appearing you're basically also

17 agreeing to work together toward the best possible

18 rule, one that you can live with, one that can work

19 for your industry and your organizations and for the

20 public good.

21 (Slide.)

22 MS. HOFFMAN: And this just basically is a
ASRAC Miscellaneous Refrigeration Working Group Meeting

May 4, 2015

202-347-3700 Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. 866-928-6509

Page 24

1 schematic of where you are with all of us here,

2 technical help, public, but also stakeholders. You

3 know all of you represent something beyond yourself,

4 and we're aware of that, so we will work with you; in

5 other words, how to transmit what's happened here to

6 your constituents so they understand. You know you

7 say you have been in a meeting, but nothing's agreed

8 to until, of course, everything is. So, there may be

9 a point where we don't have an agreement yet and

10 you'll be able to tell your constituents we're

11 working on this, what the topics are.

12 (Slide.)

13 MS. HOFFMAN: And then the first meeting

14 is setting the stage, which is right now. And

15 subsequent meetings and between meetings we'll be

16 available with Joe Hagerman, Navigant, et cetera. We

17 might have webinars if you need it, whatever, but we

18 may have when we set the dates fairly accelerated

19 time schedules so that we may not need that, but

20 we're available for that as well.

21 (Slide.)

22 MS. HOFFMAN: And then, we may need a
ASRAC Miscellaneous Refrigeration Working Group Meeting

May 4, 2015

202-347-3700 Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. 866-928-6509

Page 25

1 smaller working group. This is a fairly small group,

2 but there may be a topic that we want to have a few

3 of you do and members of the group can suggest a

4 working group for that, a smaller one. And we'll go

5 into what that means. It's more advisory because

6 what you come up with would be presented back to the

7 larger group because this is the decision-making

8 body.

9 (Slide.)

10 MS. HOFFMAN: And then that's just what

11 the meeting is which is what we're going to do today. 

12 We did a little bit already. You can pat yourselves

13 on the back. The expectations of the meeting, by Joe

14 asking each of you what you hope to have happen, we

15 got a pretty good feel. Not everything, of course,

16 of what you're hoping to happening with this rule,

17 the introduction a little bit of the overview of the

18 process, which is to come up with a term sheet really

19 and a draft rule and language of the definitions and

20 scope, and then the ground rules and protocol.

21 And then our participation we went over

22 that already. If we need to add members -- I don't
ASRAC Miscellaneous Refrigeration Working Group Meeting

May 4, 2015

202-347-3700 Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. 866-928-6509

Page 26

1 think we do ^^^^ I think we've got a representative

2 group that's here, that's been convened. And if

3 anyone feels that they can't participate let us know

4 also because we'll be discussing very shortly what a

5 quorum is and so we want to make sure that you're

6 counted on that.

7 (Slide.)

8 MS. HOFFMAN: And then the purpose of the

9 rule and decision-making will be by consensus for the

10 most part, and we'll also define what consensus is. 

11 In the Act, in the Negotiated Rulemaking Act,

12 consensus is unanimous unless the committee, the

13 working group decides on a slightly different

14 definition, and we'll be handing out some draft

15 ground rules where you'll see other committees have

16 done a little bit less than 100 percent consensus --

17 one, two, three type of things with certain "no's,"

18 but that's for you to decide.

19 (Slide.)

20 MS. HOFFMAN: And then when there's an

21 agreement, which we're hopeful will be happening in

22 August, we might talk about how that's going to be
ASRAC Miscellaneous Refrigeration Working Group Meeting

May 4, 2015

202-347-3700 Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. 866-928-6509

Page 27

1 portrayed. And good faith is what we're hoping for

2 and think you're all hearing that. And information

3 flow there will be -- and Joe will go into it by the

4 end of the meeting. There's a website where all the

5 material be on and Isael will be putting everything,

6 logging it in so you can find it.

7 We've learned now with the incredible

8 amount of material that comes in that having a

9 particular number in a log so you can find it would

10 be helpful. And between meetings, we'll touch base

11 with you and concluding, follow up. We'll also ask

12 you down the road for an evaluation. And that's

13 that. At least, that's part of what we hope to do. 

14 Are there any questions? Yes. Tell us who you are,

15 please.

16 MR. TOPPING: Dick Topping, Sub-Zero.

17 Just a point of clarification, maybe this

18 is for Joe. Is a possible outcome to have a

19 successful negotiation for some products in -- you

20 know in this grouping and perhaps remand other back

21 for a formal analysis of DOE?

22 MR. HAGERMAN: Joe Hagerman, DOE.
ASRAC Miscellaneous Refrigeration Working Group Meeting

May 4, 2015

202-347-3700 Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. 866-928-6509

Page 28

1 Absolutely. So, that was contemplated at

2 the onset of this working group due to the larger

3 ASRAC Committee.

4 MS. HOFFMAN: Okay. Thank you. Any other

5 questions? Yes.

6 MR. HAGERMAN: Let me just say one

7 clarification, though. Joe Hagerman, DOE again.

8 Let's try not to do that. Okay. Thank

9 you.

10 MS. CLEARY: Jen Clary with AHAM.

11 Can you tell us what would happen -- let's

12 say one group of products didn't go through this

13 process. What would happen to it?

14 MR. HAGERMAN: I think DOE would you know

15 take the recommendation of this committee obviously

16 very serious and then we'd probably continue to do a

17 little bit more analysis to see how the Department

18 felt on that recommendation.

19 MS. CLEARY: Jen Cleary with AHAM.

20 Would it be, do you think, part of the

21 same rulemaking or would it need to move to a

22 separate rule, or is that something we should
ASRAC Miscellaneous Refrigeration Working Group Meeting

May 4, 2015

202-347-3700 Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. 866-928-6509

Page 29

1 investigate?

2 MR. HAGERMAN: I think it could be

3 either/or.

4 MS. HOFFMAN: Okay. I think there's more

5 here. The negotiation process, which is I think

6 we've really talked about that, which is we'll be

7 talking about the agenda and basically trying to find

8 consensus on all of these points.

9 Now, Joe, I just want to mention this EPCA

10 requirements, do you want to go over that now?

11 MR. HAGERMAN: Sure. These are the seven

12 factors that we use for any rulemaking, that

13 different types of analysis that we do. So, after

14 this working group comes up with a term sheet or

15 multiple term sheets, we still perform all these

16 different analysis to compile the final rule. So,

17 there's economic impact on consumers. There's

18 lifetime operating cost savings, total projected

19 energy savings, impact on utility and performance,

20 impact on lessening competition, the National Energy

21 Conservation, and other factors the Secretary may

22 weigh.
ASRAC Miscellaneous Refrigeration Working Group Meeting

May 4, 2015

202-347-3700 Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. 866-928-6509

Page 30

1 So, you see these seven analyses in the

2 final rule of everything that we do. And that work

3 is typically done by Navigant, so we'll continue to

4 do that to complete the final rule.

5 MS. HOFFMAN: Well, great.

6 MR. HAGERMAN: This would be a good point

7 to introduce our general counsel.

8 MS. BUTLER: Sarah Butler with the Office

9 of General Counsel.

10 MS. HOFFMAN: We're ready for the Ethics

11 piece.

12 MR. HAGERMAN: No, no, hold on. That's

13 Dan Kelly. Dan Kelly is going to go down to get the

14 Ethics lawyer.

15 MS. HOFFMAN: Well, thank you for joining

16 us. So much for that. All right, moving right

17 along, we'll go to ground rules.

18 MR. RAMIREZ: Joe's going to pass around

19 some hard copies of ground rules.

20 MS. HOFFMAN: Right.

21 MR. HAGERMAN: Right. So, I'm going to

22 pass around -- these are the standard, boilerplate
ASRAC Miscellaneous Refrigeration Working Group Meeting

May 4, 2015

202-347-3700 Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. 866-928-6509

Page 31

1 ground rules that we use before any negotiated

2 rulemaking. So, as a group, we're all going to read

3 this. So, I'll pass these out and give you 10 or 15

4 minutes to read them, and then we can start having

5 the discussion. Hopefully, by that time, Wayne will

6 have come up here and we can have the Ethics briefing

7 too.

8 And then, as a group, we typically post

9 these on the board and then Javier will go through

10 each paragraph and we'll vote consensus or not

11 consensus on the ground rules to make sure

12 everybody's comfortable with it. This will typically

13 take about two hours to get through this document,

14 it's four pages, and then we'll go from there.

15 MS. HOFFMAN: May I say it might not take

16 two hours. It might not take quite so long really,

17 but when you're reading it take a look at it. We'll

18 be talking about what should be --

19 MR. RAMIREZ: It usually takes about two

20 hours.

21 MS. HOFFMAN: We'll have a facilitator

22 huddle here.
ASRAC Miscellaneous Refrigeration Working Group Meeting

May 4, 2015

202-347-3700 Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. 866-928-6509

Page 32

1 MR. RAMIREZ: See if we can get you

2 through it quicker.

3 MS. HOFFMAN: Yes. We'll be also defining

4 quorum and consensus.

5 (Working Group participants read ground

6 rules.)

7 MR. HAGERMAN: So, Dan just talked to the

8 Ethics lawyer. They're going to be here after lunch,

9 so we can all act unethical until lunch.

10 MS. HOFFMAN: Don't let anybody buy lunch

11 for you, or unless it's got to be under $20. Okay.

12 We're going to be doing the ground rules

13 in a few minutes. You had a chance to read them. 

14 We're looking at each paragraph, alternate working

15 group members, participation, quorum, and consensus. 

16 But before we did that, we thought maybe just a

17 little discussion of what consensus is might be

18 helpful before we start. So, Javier is going to do

19 that for us.

20 MR. RAMIREZ: All right, so I'm going to

21 try to go through some of these consensus slides a

22 bit quick. For the most part, I think that folks
ASRAC Miscellaneous Refrigeration Working Group Meeting

May 4, 2015

202-347-3700 Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. 866-928-6509

Page 33

1 understand what is consensus, but we sometimes have a

2 little different understanding so that's why it's

3 beneficial to go through and make sure we have a

4 common understanding of what is consensus, but also,

5 more importantly, if there are some "no" votes how

6 many "no" votes are there until the group is

7 comfortable with saying that we've reached consensus.

8 So, basically, it's a process where

9 everyone's been heard. The decision may not be your

10 first choice, but that you could live with the

11 decision. And if you noticed on there, can live with

12 and support the decision, that's the lowest level of

13 consensus. You may not necessarily agree with it,

14 but you could still live with and support.

15 (Slide.)

16 MR. RAMIREZ: So, when we're going through

17 consensus, you want to make sure that you raise valid

18 doubts and ask the questions. You want to get the

19 dialogue going, offer alternatives. If something

20 doesn't work for you, then what can? And we're going

21 to go into that a little bit more when we talk about

22 -- it sounds a little negative, but we call them
ASRAC Miscellaneous Refrigeration Working Group Meeting

May 4, 2015

202-347-3700 Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. 866-928-6509

Page 34

1 "Blockers." So, if you're thumb is down and you're

2 saying no, why is it down? Is there an alternative? 

3 All right.

4 (Slide.)

5 MR. RAMIREZ: So, here are the different

6 levels of consensus. You have the five levels. Now,

7 when we normally gauge consensus we could do it one

8 of two ways. We could either do it with the fingers,

9 right, where you start off with five fingers. And if

10 you agree completely, there they are, acceptable

11 would be four, can live with the decision would be

12 three, do not agree but won't block and will support

13 are two fingers, and do not agree and will block

14 where there's one finger remaining, right? You can

15 decide which finger, right, but one finger.

16 Now that's a little complicated, so what

17 we do is we prefer the thumbs. So, the first two

18 would be a thumbs up, agree completely or acceptable. 

19 Sideways is the next two. And then if you do not

20 agree and you're going to block, then it's a thumbs

21 down. Okay. So, if everyone is sideways, is that

22 consensus? Technically, yes, according to what I
ASRAC Miscellaneous Refrigeration Working Group Meeting

May 4, 2015

202-347-3700 Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. 866-928-6509

Page 35

1 just said, yes, it is.

2 Now, I will tell you it's a weak

3 consensus. And if I see that what I'm going to do is

4 I'm going to take it and I'm going to put it in my

5 pocket and I'm going to say here's your consensus. 

6 I'm going to hold onto that, but is there a way that

7 we could make it a little stronger? Is there

8 something that we could do to tweak it to make it a

9 little stronger? If not, I'm going to take it back

10 out and say here you go. You have your consensus. 

11 Let's roll with it, right, because I did that one

12 time and I forgot to put it in my pocket and I

13 couldn't get them back to where everyone was sideways

14 again. So, I'm going to hold onto it just in case

15 and put it back on the table if we need to. Okay.

16 Now, if your thumb is down, it's the

17 responsibility of the person whose thumb is down to

18 state why. Okay. So, if your thumb is down -- you

19 know I spaced out. I wasn't paying attention. The

20 question wasn't clear. Javier, that was a very

21 confusing question. Can you restate it? I need a

22 little bit more time to think about that. If you
ASRAC Miscellaneous Refrigeration Working Group Meeting

May 4, 2015

202-347-3700 Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. 866-928-6509

Page 36

1 need a little bit more time that's fine. 

2 There's times where folks may want to do a

3 quick little huddle before they come back and say

4 yes. And if so, we have a room in the back. If you

5 want to take a few minutes and do that, let us know

6 and we could allow for that.

7 Now again, if your thumb is down, though,

8 it's not just a matter of your thumb being down and

9 you don't agree with it. You have to help the group

10 understand why that is. Now, I had somebody tell me,

11 Javier, during one of the breaks why do you keep

12 picking on me? And I said, well, what do you mean? 

13 Why do you say that? Because you keep calling on me.

14 Well, if the person's thumb is down, I'm

15 going to call on you to find out why is your thumb

16 down. Okay, so it's your responsibility to explain

17 that. Okay.

18 Now, there's two things that we may do as

19 far as checking the level of consensus. Sometimes I

20 may just ask for a temperature check and say well

21 where are we at on this? Let me see a show of

22 thumbs. And then that way if everyone's in agreement
ASRAC Miscellaneous Refrigeration Working Group Meeting

May 4, 2015

202-347-3700 Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. 866-928-6509

Page 37

1 there's no sense in continuing to discuss it. Let's

2 formally approve it and move on.

3 There may be times where I'll do that

4 because I know that the folks not in agreement, but

5 it's a way to generate certain dialogue, right, so I

6 may ask that question knowing that there's not full

7 consensus yet, but just to get you talking. And then

8 we'll make it clear that if we are going to be

9 looking for a final consensus vote that it's a vote

10 that will be recorded and that's going to be on the

11 docket. Is that clear to everyone?

12 MS. HOFFMAN: Also, I was going to mention

13 that when you're blocking not only say what your

14 concerns are, but if you have an alternative. So,

15 we're kind of asking people not just be a veto, but

16 to be a part of the group and how would you solve

17 this problem. So, we're trying to get as much

18 information and ideas as possible.

19 MR. RAMIREZ: So, when we talk about

20 consensus, the consensus is usually unanimous. Now,

21 when we do these regulatory negotiations, we normally

22 do allow for not a unanimous consensus in order for
ASRAC Miscellaneous Refrigeration Working Group Meeting

May 4, 2015

202-347-3700 Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. 866-928-6509

Page 38

1 it to be approved. We allow for some folks to

2 dissent, but still the group can say that they've

3 reached consensus.

4 Now, there's different levels of dissent,

5 and you all have to agree on which is appropriate for

6 you. One of the things that we threw out there for a

7 starting point of discussion is a super majority, a

8 two-thirds majority. And if you're looking at a

9 group of your size where you have 14 people,

10 two-thirds will be 10, meaning that 4 people could

11 dissent and you would still have consensus.

12 Now, that's one of the things that we're

13 going to have to agree upon, and so I would ask the

14 group here what do you think as far as -- I'm asking

15 for some discussion. Does two-thirds sound

16 appropriate to you all, that if four people dissent

17 that the group would still have consensus?

18 MS. HOFFMAN: Jennifer.

19 MS. CLEARY: I think I'd be a little

20 concerned about that because looking at --

21 MS. HOFFMAN: Say your name.

22 MS. CLEARY: Jennifer Cleary. 
ASRAC Miscellaneous Refrigeration Working Group Meeting

May 4, 2015

202-347-3700 Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. 866-928-6509

Page 39

1 Looking at who's represented, there may be

2 certain kind of groupings of people who might not

3 have enough -- you know it could a whole like segment

4 that might disagree. I don't know. I'd be open to

5 hear other's thoughts.

6 MR. RAMIREZ: Okay.

7 MR. MARCINIAK: Roland with U-Line. I

8 noticed on the rules for the working group that

9 they're talking about two as a reason or three

10 actually being a reason for non-consensus, so there

11 seems to already be some disparity between what we've

12 read here and what you're suggesting there.

13 MR. RAMIREZ: Yes. These ground rules

14 were cut and paste from another reg.

15 MR. MARCINIAK: Okay.

16 MR. RAMIREZ: So, it depends on the size

17 of the group, but yes, three is another number that

18 we could discuss.

19 MR. MARCINIAK: Well, it seems to be

20 actually going in the reverse direction that Jenny is

21 just sayings. She's saying she's questioning if four

22 is too little and this is stating three would be
ASRAC Miscellaneous Refrigeration Working Group Meeting

May 4, 2015

202-347-3700 Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. 866-928-6509

Page 40

1 cause for non-consensus, so I'm just trying to get a

2 feel for what some of the thoughts are for how many

3 it would take to have consensus.

4 MR. RAMIREZ: Yes. And again, Joanna, I

5 think you wanted to speak. I'll just remind you to

6 put your table tents up so that way we can keep track

7 of who wants to speak. Joanna.

8 MS. MAUER: Joanna Mauer.

9 If I understood, Jen, I think what you're

10 saying four may be too many, and I would agree with

11 that. We have somewhat of a caucus of three, so I

12 don't think we'd want to see more than two "no"

13 votes.

14 MR. RAMIREZ: So, two?

15 MS. HOFFMAN: Two "no" votes.

16 MS. MAUER: I would defer to Tim, though,

17 also.

18 MR. BALLO: This is Tim at Earth Justice.

19 I think put this up to the manufacturers

20 to this question as well because I'm not sure how

21 many of the manufacturers around the room participate

22 in the market for each of the different products that
ASRAC Miscellaneous Refrigeration Working Group Meeting

May 4, 2015

202-347-3700 Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. 866-928-6509

Page 41

1 are sort of within the sphere that we're discussing

2 here. So, I'm not sure if there's you know a couple

3 of people that make thermal electric products, for

4 example. But my thinking was that because this is a

5 smaller group than we've typically had for reg negs

6 that we would do more than one or maybe two "no"

7 votes; define that as consensus.

8 MR. RAMIREZ: All right, so, yes, I'm

9 hearing a range from one to four. So, let me see a

10 show of thumbs of what you think of two as -- again,

11 looking at the levels of consensus with that fourth

12 one being the lowest level of consensus, right? Let

13 me see a show of thumbs if you're okay with two?

14 MR. HAGERMAN: Javier, this is not an

15 official vote. You're just taking people's

16 temperature?

17 MR. RAMIREZ: Yes. It may be official,

18 depending on --

19 MR. HAGERMAN: That's the question.

20 MR. RAMIREZ: But let's see a show of

21 thumbs, though, if you're okay of two. And this is

22 more of a temperature check, at least to start off
ASRAC Miscellaneous Refrigeration Working Group Meeting

May 4, 2015

202-347-3700 Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. 866-928-6509

Page 42

1 with, right? We'll formalize it if we need to. If

2 you're okay with two as the maximum number of

3 dissenters and still allow for consensus.

4 (Vote taken.)

5 MR. HAGERMAN: I mean my vote is whatever

6 this means.

7 MS. HOFFMAN: You can live with it.

8 MR. HAGERMAN: Just because I think we

9 need a little bit more discussion here from

10 everybody. I mean I don't really know how to vote

11 yet without having discussion.

12 MR. RAMIREZ: Yes. So, I'm going to

13 switch your thumb to down, right, because you're

14 still getting a little comfortable with the process,

15 right? But a thumb down would be just you do want to

16 have more discussion and that's fine. And so, Joe,

17 is the concern that two may be a little to low, a

18 little too high.

19 MR. HAGERMAN: I don't know enough yet. 

20 I'd like to hear other people's thoughts on it.

21 MR. RAMIREZ: Okay. So, who else would

22 like to chime in?
ASRAC Miscellaneous Refrigeration Working Group Meeting

May 4, 2015

202-347-3700 Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. 866-928-6509

Page 43

1 MR. HON: Charlie Hon, True Manufacturing.

2 I think we need to really first clarify

3 the group as a whole because we need to find out how

4 many representatives for each sector of the market

5 may be involved here. That can dictate a lot because

6 we have energy efficiency people here. We have

7 manufacturers here. The manufacturers may be making

8 one product, two products, three products, four

9 different categories within the scope of this

10 rulemaking. I think we need to be fair and let

11 everybody understand where the market sectors are.

12 MR. RAMIREZ: Okay. Chris.

13 MR. KUCH: I agree. I think one of the

14 big questions is what's the scope? I mean

15 miscellaneous products I think it's already been

16 stated that that's really broad. So, I think a

17 better understanding of what that is would help.

18 MR. RAMIREZ: Now, getting into scope I

19 know that that's one of the items that we need to

20 identify, and that's going to be quite a bit of

21 discussion. At least the way I understand that, I

22 believe that we would have to have an understanding
ASRAC Miscellaneous Refrigeration Working Group Meeting

May 4, 2015

202-347-3700 Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. 866-928-6509

Page 44

1 of what is consensus before we start getting into the

2 details of the meeting. That is one of your tasks,

3 right, is the scope.

4 MR. HAGERMAN: Jennifer?

5 MS. CLEARY: Can I make a suggestion maybe

6 --Jennifer Cleary.

7 You know it sounds like maybe we want to

8 understand which products certain manufacturers make. 

9 I think that might be the biggest question. So, I

10 mean there are kind of four groupings, maybe we could

11 just ask for a show of hands in that.

12 MS. HOFFMAN: Excuse me. Eileen Hoffman.

13 Go around the room and ask each

14 representative what products they -- would that be

15 easier?

16 MR. HAGERMAN: So, Joe Hagerman. 

17 The four categories are cooled cabinets,

18 non-compressor refrigerators, hybrid products, and

19 icemakers.

20 MR. RAMIREZ: All right, so let's see a

21 show of hands for cooled cabinets?

22 MR. HAGERMAN: Hold on. You know those
ASRAC Miscellaneous Refrigeration Working Group Meeting

May 4, 2015

202-347-3700 Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. 866-928-6509

Page 45

1 four categories are the four categories that are in

2 the preliminary document. It's not -- you know it

3 may not be how this group you know in terms of those

4 people.

5 MR. RAMIREZ: We may have to go through

6 and do Eileen's initial one.

7 MR. HAGERMAN: Right.

8 MR. RAMIREZ: So, Bill.

9 MR. BROWN: Yes, Bill Brown with GE.

10 You asked for manufacturers. Are you also

11 talking about those that brand the products and not

12 just the OEMs as well?

13 MR. RAMIREZ: I believe it has to be

14 whatever is on the market.

15 MR. BROWN: Well, I'm asking you know if

16 your company physically manufacturers a product or

17 you buy from another company and brand it with your

18 -- so you are you asking you know if we make the

19 product or if we sell the product?

20 MR. RAMIREZ: Both.

21 MR. MOUW: Nathan Mouw, Whirlpool.

22 If I could just maybe add to Jen Cleary's
ASRAC Miscellaneous Refrigeration Working Group Meeting

May 4, 2015

202-347-3700 Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. 866-928-6509

Page 46

1 suggestion -- I mean we've got a whiteboard. Perhaps

2 could we and go through, not only just cooled

3 cabinets, but of course there's a separation between

4 thermal electric versus vapor compression just so we

5 all have a real good feel for what exactly is

6 represented, what products exactly are represented by

7 this group.

8 MR. HAGERMAN: Thanks for adding thermo

9 electrics.

10 MR. RAMIREZ: So, then let's go around and

11 we'll ask each manufacturer what they do and then

12 we'll categorize them.

13 MR. ORMAN: Dan Orman, Haier America. So,

14 we would have cooled cabinets compressorized. Now,

15 thermo electric wine cellars that's going to be

16 non-compressor cooled cabinets versus non-compressor

17 refrigerators. I'm not sure which term.

18 MR. HAGERMAN: I've nominated Troy to do

19 this for us.

20 MR. ORMAN: Joe, when you were reading

21 through the categories, you had non-compressor

22 refrigerators. What about non-compressor cooled
ASRAC Miscellaneous Refrigeration Working Group Meeting

May 4, 2015

202-347-3700 Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. 866-928-6509

Page 47

1 cabinets? So, Haier America has cooled cabinets,

2 both compressor and non-compressor. We have

3 icemakers. We don't have hybrids and we do not have

4 non-compressor refrigerators.

5 MR. WATSON: So, icemakers and vapor

6 compression and thermo electric cooled cabinets?

7 MR. ORMAN: Correct. I don't know whether

8 we're making a distinction here with manufacturer

9 versus branding or not.

10 MR. HAGERMAN: I would say if your company

11 sells them.

12 MR. ORMAN: Okay.

13 MR. HAGERMAN: This is kind of the white

14 elephant in the room or whatever. You know we're

15 having a hard time getting a hold of thermo electric

16 companies, so please help us to try to get to those

17 companies and get those companies to the table.

18 MS. HOFFMAN: Does that reflect all of the

19 categories?

20 MR. ORMAN: Yes.

21 MR. RAMIREZ: So, do we need to

22 distinguish them between branding and manufacturing
ASRAC Miscellaneous Refrigeration Working Group Meeting

May 4, 2015

202-347-3700 Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. 866-928-6509

Page 48

1 or just if they sell them or make them?

2 MR. HAGERMAN: I'm indifferent to that.

3 MR. RAMIREZ: All right. So, just list

4 the products then.

5 MR. HAGERMAN: Notwithstanding, we still

6 have the problem that we need to get thermo electric

7 companies to the table, so please help us. you know

8 find out who these companies are because we've

9 reached out and they're just non-responsive.

10 MR. MOUW: This is Nate with Whirlpool.

11 Joe, I'd agree. I think the challenge, if

12 we sell those products, is we may not have the

13 technical expertise, right, to answer those questions

14 for those products even if we sell them. So, I agree

15 with your recommendation. Whirlpool has vapor

16 compression cooled cabinets and icemakers. That's

17 it. Thanks.

18 MR. MARCINIAK: Roland Marciniak with

19 U-Line.

20 We have compressor products, cooled

21 cabinets, and all products are under-counter

22 refrigeration/freezer type units. That's it.
ASRAC Miscellaneous Refrigeration Working Group Meeting

May 4, 2015

202-347-3700 Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. 866-928-6509

Page 49

1 MR. DANE: Mary Dane for Traulsen.

2 We have the cooled cabinets, all

3 compressor and we're still interested in the hybrid

4 category to get definition, but they would be

5 compressor controlled, so one in three.

6 MR. SCHAFER: Stephen Schaefer, Hoshizaki

7 America. Hoshizaki has the cooled cabinets,

8 compressor, and icemakers.

9 MR. MARCINIAK: This is Roland with

10 U-Line.

11 We also have icemakers that should be on

12 that also.

13 MR. HON: Charlie Hon, True Manufacturing.

14 We have vapor compression cooled cabinets. 

15 We have very serious interest in hybrids and also

16 icemakers we manufacturer.

17 MS. CLEARY: Jen Cleary with AHAM. 

18 We don't manufacturer anything, but

19 obviously, we're representing those who do, but the

20 categories would be vapor compression cooled

21 cabinets, hybrids, and icemakers.

22 MR. BROWN: Bill Brown with GE.
ASRAC Miscellaneous Refrigeration Working Group Meeting

May 4, 2015

202-347-3700 Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. 866-928-6509

Page 50

1 We sell vapor compression cooled cabinets

2 and icemakers.

3 MR. TOPPING: Yes, Dick Topping, Sub-Zero.

4 Manufacture is vapor compression, cooled

5 cabinets, although I will, just for the record,

6 mention that the whole concept of cooled -- calling

7 them cooled cabinets is something that we -- is a DOE

8 proposal and so they've been called wine coolers

9 prior to that. And we also manufacture vapor

10 compression hybrids.

11 MR. RAMIREZ: I know that George is not

12 here. Does anyone know? 

13 MS. HOFFMAN: (Inaudible.)

14 MR. RAMIREZ: Right.

15 MS. HOFFMAN: Is he on the line?

16 MR. MOUW: This is Nate.

17 I know that Mile High Equipment is

18 associated with Ice-o-Matic, which manufactures

19 icemakers, but I'm not speaking for that company. I

20 just have that knowledge.

21 MR. RAMIREZ: right.

22 MR. MOUW: If I could just ask for a bit
ASRAC Miscellaneous Refrigeration Working Group Meeting

May 4, 2015

202-347-3700 Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. 866-928-6509

Page 51

1 of clarification. I heard a couple of parties

2 mention interest in products versus manufacturing or

3 selling. So, I just want to make sure that it's

4 clear whether or not these companies are

5 manufacturing and/or selling or have just interest in

6 those products.

7 MR. RAMIREZ: I believe that was Jennifer. 

8 Was there anyone else that had that?

9 MR. MOUW: I thought Charlie mentioned

10 something and Mary Dane also mentioned something

11 similar.

12 MS. HOFFMAN: On hybrids, yes.

13 MR. HON: Charlie Hon.

14 Just because we don't manufacture it today

15 doesn't mean we won't manufacture in the very near

16 future.

17 MS. DANE: This is Mary Dane from

18 Traulsen. 

19 We're interested from a scope perspective

20 of what the word "miscellaneous" means and what

21 "hybrid" means and along those lines.

22 MR. RAMIREZ: Does that help?
ASRAC Miscellaneous Refrigeration Working Group Meeting

May 4, 2015

202-347-3700 Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. 866-928-6509

Page 52

1 (No response.)

2 MR. RAMIREZ: Any other questions or

3 clarification needed?

4 MR. WATSON: Should I add Mile High under

5 icemakers?

6 MR. RAMIREZ: Do that with a question mark

7 on there. We could confirm with them.

8 MR. BROWN: Joe, this is Bill Brown with

9 GE.

10 I mean you mentioned the thermo electrics. 

11 Do we have any manufacturers that make the absorption

12 refrigerators that's also included in this

13 miscellaneous?

14 MR. RAMIREZ: I'm sorry. Could you repeat

15 that?

16 MR. BROWN: Do we have any manufacturers

17 that make or sell absorption refrigerators. They're

18 also non-compressor-based cabinets, so thermo

19 electric and also absorption. So, I was just

20 wondering if we have anybody that represents

21 absorption refrigerators.

22 MR. HAGERMAN: So, this is Joe Hagerman,
ASRAC Miscellaneous Refrigeration Working Group Meeting

May 4, 2015

202-347-3700 Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. 866-928-6509

Page 53

1 DOE.

2 We've had the absorption folks attend the

3 last public meeting and I believe we got some

4 comments from them, but I don't think anybody here at

5 the table. Maybe you all should speak for

6 yourselves, but I don't think anybody at the table

7 represents or manufactures those products.

8 MR. TOPPING: Dick Topping, Sub-Zero.

9 We sell icemakers. I forgot to add that.

10 MR. RAMIREZ: Okay. Any other questions

11 or clarification needed?

12 (No response.)

13 MR. RAMIREZ: So, how does that

14 information help with your discussion and hopefully

15 ultimate agreement on consensus?

16 MR. MOUW: If I could -- Nat Mouw from

17 Whirlpool.

18 Obviously, looking at the whiteboard there

19 is four non-compression refrigerators as well as

20 thermo electric products. There's a very, very small

21 group of stakeholders here. Does that impact how we

22 view consensus in these areas or does that change the
ASRAC Miscellaneous Refrigeration Working Group Meeting

May 4, 2015

202-347-3700 Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. 866-928-6509

Page 54

1 approach that this group takes for those products?

2 MR. RAMIREZ: What do you all think?

3 MR. SCHAEFER: Stephen Schafer, Hoshizaki

4 America.

5 Is there a possibility of still trying to

6 get other people for those areas before the next

7 meeting, or is this the cap for the committee at this

8 point?

9 MR. HAGERMAN: Joe Hagerman, DOE.

10 I think the rules stipulate that this

11 group can vote other members in.

12 MR. RAMIREZ: Now, there are some items

13 that we are going to have to reach consensus on, and

14 they're fairly minor and we can amend them at any

15 point; but one of them is the level of consensus, but

16 also quorum. I'm not sure what other agreements we

17 may be getting to in the next day or so, but even so,

18 if the group changes in size we could always revisit

19 the numbers that we've agreed to and amend them if

20 need be.

21 MR. HAGERMAN: Joe Hagerman, DOE.

22 One more thing -- and Jennifer alluded to
ASRAC Miscellaneous Refrigeration Working Group Meeting

May 4, 2015

202-347-3700 Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. 866-928-6509

Page 55

1 this in one of her earlier questions. Keep in mind

2 -- and this is just me thinking through this a little

3 bit. Keep in mind, this group could come up with

4 definition and coverages for all these products and

5 for thermo electrics, but then this group could turn

6 around and say there shouldn't be a standard for some

7 of those -- obviously, that's not our preference --

8 or likewise, they could say, DOE should develop the

9 standard for this outside of this group, run the

10 traditional analysis that you do, or the third is

11 this group is going to come up with a standard. So,

12 keep that in mind too.

13 MR. RAMIREZ: This is an example of what I

14 would ask for a show of consensus to see if there's

15 any additional dialogue. So again, let me see a show

16 of thumbs for temperature check, not the final vote

17 as far as two "no" vote for a consensus. In other

18 words, more than two then there's no consensus.

19 MS. DANE: This is Mary from Traulsen.

20 Can we wait until Jennifer gets back?

21 MS. HOFFMAN: Would this be an appropriate

22 time for a break? That's what I think. How about a
ASRAC Miscellaneous Refrigeration Working Group Meeting

May 4, 2015

202-347-3700 Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. 866-928-6509

Page 56

1 15-minute break and you can think about this, and

2 when we come back we'll deal with it, okay? So, come

3 back in 15 minutes. Okay, we'll see you all back

4 here at 10:30.

5 (Whereupon, a short recess was taken.)

6 MR. RAMIREZ: And so, while we were on

7 break, we did hear from Jennifer that she would not

8 be able to get back here before 10:30. She will be

9 joining us again, but not before 10:30. However, she

10 wanted to let us know that she'd be okay with two

11 negative votes, but nothing more than that. So, we

12 just wanted to make sure that that was in the record.

13 MS. HOFFMAN: She's sideways for two.

14 MR. RAMIREZ: Right.

15 MS. HOFFMAN: She could live with the two.

16 MR. RAMIREZ: So, going back to that

17 though, one thing that I think the group has to

18 understand is that looking at the list here there may

19 be items that we're discussing that really don't

20 pertain to your interests. And if that's the case,

21 then you could abstain from a vote or you could go

22 sideways thumb with your vote. So, abstaining is
ASRAC Miscellaneous Refrigeration Working Group Meeting

May 4, 2015

202-347-3700 Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. 866-928-6509

Page 57

1 totally appropriate.

2 The sideways, you have to understand that

3 listening and maybe there's not enough expertise. 

4 And the other thing we could do is we could also

5 where we break and if you want to pick the brains of

6 some other folks that may not be here or maybe

7 consults with some folks that are in the different

8 country if we can't find the appropriate people to

9 bring here. But again, if you all think that there

10 are people here that we can incorporate, then we'll

11 vote on that and bring them in if need be.

12 During the break, were there any points

13 that were brought up that you wanted to make sure

14 that the group hears, or anything further for

15 discussion on consensus?

16 MR. HAGERMAN: This is Joe Hagerman. I

17 feel more comfortable now after hearing more

18 discussion and mapping out what everybody sells, all

19 right. I mean I'm comfortable if that's the baseline

20 that we're going to vote off of.

21 MR. RAMIREZ: Let's check it out after we

22 hear from Charlie.
ASRAC Miscellaneous Refrigeration Working Group Meeting

May 4, 2015

202-347-3700 Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. 866-928-6509

Page 58

1 MR. HON: Charlie Hon, True Manufacturing.

2 The only question I have is two negative

3 votes a turn down of it, or is two negative votes

4 acceptable?

5 MR. RAMIREZ: Two negative votes it would

6 still go forward. More than that, then we don't

7 have.

8 MS. HOFFMAN: Three negative votes or more

9 it's dead in the water. Two negative votes maybe

10 somebody politically can't vote for something,

11 whatever, it can go.

12 MR. HAGERMAN: So, we're saying consensus

13 is defined by 12 out of 14 members.

14 MR. RAMIREZ: And I want to be careful

15 with that because the next thing we're going to talk

16 about is quorum, right? But I think it's clear that

17 if there's two voted down we're still good. Once you

18 see that third one, then we're not good. So, Roland.

19 MR. MARCINIAK: I'm a little confused. If

20 you have somebody in absence, you're saying that it

21 would still be acceptable if you had two dissenting

22 and one abstained. I think I heard two different
ASRAC Miscellaneous Refrigeration Working Group Meeting

May 4, 2015

202-347-3700 Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. 866-928-6509

Page 59

1 views of that to where that was acceptable or not

2 acceptable.

3 MR. RAMIREZ: Yes. That's why I wanted to

4 clarify that. If you have two votes down, you're

5 still good.

6 MR. MARCINIAK: If you have two votes

7 down, and somebody abstains from voting.

8 MR. RAMIREZ: You're still good.

9 MR. MARCINIAK: You're good? Okay.

10 MR. RAMIREZ: Yes. And that's what we

11 were kind of talking about before that maybe it's

12 something that doesn't pertain to you. You don't

13 want to impact it. You would just abstain.

14 MS. MAUER: Joanna Mauer.

15 I think I may have misstated my

16 suggestion. I think I was thinking that with two

17 "no" votes it would not be a consensus.

18 MS. HOFFMAN: So, you're restating that

19 one "no" vote it could be a consensus. Two "no"

20 votes it's not.

21 MS. MAUER: Right.

22 MS. HOFFMAN: Okay.
ASRAC Miscellaneous Refrigeration Working Group Meeting

May 4, 2015

202-347-3700 Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. 866-928-6509

Page 60

1 MR. RAMIREZ: Okay. Any other discussion

2 on that?

3 (No response.)

4 MR. RAMIREZ: All right. And let me

5 explain -- I was supposed to explain afterwards, but

6 I'm still going to ask for a show of thumbs on the

7 two just to see where we're at on that. It's not jut

8 try to force anyone into anything. If that doesn't

9 work for you, again, looking at the levels of

10 consensus then we'll try another number.

11 MR. HAGERMAN: Joe Hagerman.

12 Real quick just so we can be clear with

13 everybody. Let's vote on what the definition of

14 consensus is by you know 12 out of 14, right, or 10

15 out of 14 rather than saying the two "no" votes

16 because I think that's what's confusing everybody. 

17 So, what you just suggested is consensus means we

18 have 12 out 14 members voting yes.

19 MR. RAMIREZ: Okay.

20 MS. MAUER: I'm not sure that works

21 because if not everyone is attending the meeting or

22 if someone wants to abstain.
ASRAC Miscellaneous Refrigeration Working Group Meeting

May 4, 2015

202-347-3700 Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. 866-928-6509

Page 61

1 MR. RAMIREZ: That's my hesitating because

2 of abstaining or if folks are not present because I

3 think it's clear that if you see a certain amount of

4 "no" -- whatever you ultimately agree upon, right,

5 you see a certain amount of thumbs down then you know

6 that it's not going. I think it's a little clearer

7 that way.

8 Okay, so again, it's not to try to force a

9 situation, but let's see a show of thumbs if two "no"

10 votes we'll still good. Two thumbs down we're still

11 good. Anything more than it's no good. Vic?

12 MR. TOPPING: I mean just in the interest

13 of full disclosure. Up front, you know let's talk

14 about an issue I think that is of some concern and it

15 has to do with thermo electric and absorption

16 products. Nobody sitting around this table

17 manufactures those products nor can probably speak to

18 you know some of the details of the design and

19 whatever. At the same time, those products at some

20 level compete with products that a number of our

21 companies manufacture. It's an uncomfortable

22 position.
ASRAC Miscellaneous Refrigeration Working Group Meeting

May 4, 2015

202-347-3700 Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. 866-928-6509

Page 62

1 MR. RAMIREZ: Okay.

2 MS. HOFFMAN: May I ask now, how would you

3 like to solve it?

4 MR. TOPPING: Well, obviously, to see some

5 representation around the table of companies that

6 both manufacture both thermo electric and absorption

7 products.

8 MR. COHEN: Hi. This is Dan Cohen,

9 General Counsel in DOE.

10 Just a couple of just legal issue around

11 that, so I'm not getting into the policy or what the

12 desirability may be on any particular issue, but just

13 as a pure legal matter a couple of things. So, you

14 know what we're talking about here is initially what

15 is covered, what is a covered product of

16 miscellaneous refrigeration equipment.

17 This group could define that in any number

18 of different ways, including thermo electric, not

19 including thermo electric. You could make a

20 determination that thermo electric is outside

21 miscellaneous refrigeration equipment, make that

22 recommendation to the Secretary and then recommend to
ASRAC Miscellaneous Refrigeration Working Group Meeting

May 4, 2015

202-347-3700 Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. 866-928-6509

Page 63

1 the Secretary that he consider thermo electric

2 separately -- as a separate covered product in a

3 different proceeding.

4 Alternatively, you could say well thermo

5 electric is part of miscellaneous refrigeration

6 equipment as a matter of coverage simply, but not

7 recommend any particular standards to the Secretary

8 and leave it for the Secretary to determine that in a

9 subsequent proceeding.

10 Third, you could sort of as an alternative

11 to two you could include thermo electric as part of

12 the covered product, and in fact, recommend standards

13 for thermo electric. Remember, the only thing this

14 group can do is recommend a proposed rule to the

15 Secretary. We obviously have to put that, whatever

16 it is, out for public comment. So, to the extent

17 that there was a standard that was on thermo electric

18 that you know even without representation around this

19 table, the Secretary still has to propose something.

20 In some ways that's no different than if

21 the Secretary did it on his own without the

22 recommendation of this group, so there would still be
ASRAC Miscellaneous Refrigeration Working Group Meeting

May 4, 2015

202-347-3700 Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. 866-928-6509

Page 64

1 the opportunity for comment and whatever. 

2 All of that said, I would reiterate Joe's

3 request earlier, to the extent you can help us

4 identify someone who could actually represent that

5 group would be helpful. We could get some of our

6 folks who actually have some knowledge about it to at

7 least some presentations of data and information to

8 sort of inform a discussion, but that's less,

9 obviously, desirable than having an actual

10 representative.

11 MR. HON: A quick one. Charlie Hon, True

12 Manufacturing.

13 I would like a clarification from the DOE. 

14 Traditionally, the DOE has made a stance of

15 technology neutral; am I correct with that

16 assumption? This is what we're looking at again

17 today?

18 MR. COHEN: This is Dan Cohen, General

19 Counsel.

20 I'm just giving you legal issues here. 

21 I'm specifically not getting into the policy of that,

22 just legally what could be a recommended path
ASRAC Miscellaneous Refrigeration Working Group Meeting

May 4, 2015

202-347-3700 Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. 866-928-6509

Page 65

1 forward.

2 MR. KUCH: So, FYI, to the group the

3 California standard for wine chillers, which would

4 fit under cooled cabinets make no distinction between

5 a vapor compression or thermo electric. It's just a

6 straight performance standard, which could be an

7 approach that this group might want to take. It's

8 just not distinguishing between the two technologies

9 there.

10 MR. HON: Charlie Hon again.

11 That also includes the absorption units

12 the same way because they're really -- that's

13 separate technology within themselves.

14 MR. RAMIREZ: Right. So again, those are

15 all things that you are going to have to reach

16 agreement on. And by you all agreeing on consensus

17 is not impacting your ultimate decisions, right, so I

18 just want to make that clear. And also, again, you

19 can abstain or sideways vote if you're just not sure

20 of that technology.

21 So, let me see a show of thumbs, and if we

22 need to do this twice, then we'll do it. Two "no"
ASRAC Miscellaneous Refrigeration Working Group Meeting

May 4, 2015

202-347-3700 Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. 866-928-6509

Page 66

1 votes you still have consensus, more than that you do

2 not. Let me see a show of thumbs where you stand on

3 that?

4 (Vote taken.)

5 MR. RAMIREZ: Okay, so I see a few thumbs

6 down, so I'm going to try the other number, right? 

7 One "no" vote you still have consensus, more than

8 that you do not. Let me see a show of thumbs if

9 you're okay with that.

10 (Vote taken.)

11 MR. RAMIREZ: Okay. Roland.

12 MR. MARCINIAK: Well, I'm concerned that

13 the group can be controlled by one dissenting vote. 

14 And if you have a special interest or if in this case

15 we were to find someone that we wanted represented on

16 this committee or on this panel that was of a

17 non-compression type that their dissenting vote would

18 basically present us from reaching a good decision. 

19 I don't like one when we have this many in the group

20 to make that determination. I think that's too few.

21 MR. RAMIREZ: Okay.

22 MR. MARCINIAK: One person can decline and
ASRAC Miscellaneous Refrigeration Working Group Meeting

May 4, 2015

202-347-3700 Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. 866-928-6509

Page 67

1 basically stop it.

2 MR. RAMIREZ: I'll get Bill the next time. 

3 I want to clarify one thing, right? One "no" vote

4 does not stop it. Okay, Bill.

5 MR. BROWN: Bill from GE.

6 I've seen this type of issue before in my

7 IEC committees where our consensus was everybody

8 around the table had to agree and we've been

9 stalemated by one or two folks taking a different

10 position and just was not able to move forward with

11 the meeting. So, I don't want to see us get bogged

12 down by having too few of a number here.

13 MR. RAMIREZ: Okay. Now, understand that

14 if we don't reach agreement, the default sticks. The

15 default is unanimous, okay. All right, so we had a

16 show of thumbs on that. So again, let me see a show

17 of thumbs for one and we'll go back onto two, but

18 trust me, there's --

19 MS. HOFFMAN: Method to this madness.

20 MR. RAMIREZ: Yes, it is. But let's see a

21 show of thumbs for one "no" vote we're still good,

22 more than that we're no good. Let me a show of
ASRAC Miscellaneous Refrigeration Working Group Meeting

May 4, 2015

202-347-3700 Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. 866-928-6509

Page 68

1 thumbs for one.

2 (Vote taken.)

3 MR. RAMIREZ: And let me see a show of

4 thumbs for two "no" votes? Two "no" votes then we're

5 still good, more than that we are not.

6 (Vote taken.)

7 MR. RAMIREZ: All right.

8 MS. HOFFMAN: I think it's passed then.

9 MR. RAMIREZ: Yes, because it's unanimous. 

10 George is not here. So, it's two "no" votes we're

11 good, more than that we're not. And again,

12 understand I'll do my best -- we'll do our best that

13 if we see a lot of sideways thumbs we'll back it up

14 and see if we can't try to have some discussion to

15 see what we need to try strengthen it.

16 MS. HOFFMAN: We operate on the idea of

17 trying to get consensus as unanimous and really would

18 be exhausting you, but this is just when there's no

19 way and the highway is here, but this is important

20 that we all agree.

21 MR. HAGERMAN: So, Joe Hagerman.

22 So, could we move to put this document up
ASRAC Miscellaneous Refrigeration Working Group Meeting

May 4, 2015

202-347-3700 Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. 866-928-6509

Page 69

1 on the screen?

2 MR. RAMIREZ: The ground rules?

3 MR. HAGERMAN: Yes. And start editing it

4 because I think we just voted on page 2, section 3B,

5 consensus. The working group will operate by

6 consensus.

7 MR. RAMIREZ: Just give me a second to

8 pull that up.

9 MR. HAGERMAN: Sure. The working group

10 has defined consensus as an agreement with less than

11 two negative votes -- not less, not less than two. 

12 However you want to word it. It's correct as stated,

13 or you can reword it and say not less than two,

14 whatever you want to do. And I think while you're on

15 that section, let's talk about quorum.

16 MR. RAMIREZ: Okay. Now, of a group of 14

17 -- there's 13 today because George is not here, but

18 out of a group of 14, again, the super majority

19 number would be 10. Let's have some discussion

20 before we check it. What's your comfort level with a

21 quorum of 10? So, you would need at least 10 people

22 present in order to conduct business.
ASRAC Miscellaneous Refrigeration Working Group Meeting

May 4, 2015

202-347-3700 Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. 866-928-6509

Page 70

1 MS. HOFFMAN: And what we're thinking of,

2 before you do that, is being either face-to-face or

3 on the webinar you know which is GoTo Meeting, so

4 that some of you for travel, weather, or whatever

5 couldn't be here. The hope is you'd be here, though.

6 MR. RAMIREZ: The other question we would

7 have is -- you know what, let's back it up a little

8 bit because how do you want to deal with alternates? 

9 Because if you send an alternate and the alternate is

10 representing you and voting for you I would assume

11 that would be part of the quorum, but you all have to

12 agree that alternates are acceptable. So, let's

13 cover that alternate piece first and then we'll go

14 back to the quorum. So, what do you all think of

15 alternates. Anyone against it?

16 MR. BALLO: This is Tim with Earth

17 Justice.

18 I guess my only concern is the requirement

19 they be designated by May 1. Obviously, it's already

20 May 4, but I'd want to allow the flexibility if

21 someone can't come up with -- if someone's alternate

22 isn't available, they can appoint someone sort of on
ASRAC Miscellaneous Refrigeration Working Group Meeting

May 4, 2015

202-347-3700 Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. 866-928-6509

Page 71

1 the fly to be their alternate for a particular

2 meeting just so we can get to quorum and maybe it's

3 not an issue.

4 MR. BROWN: Bill Brown with GE Appliances.

5 I agree with Tim. I mean by May 1 we did

6 not have an alternate, but certainly think we do have

7 one now and would like the ability to name one,

8 depending on when you have your next dates I may or

9 may not be available.

10 MR. RAMIREZ: All right.

11 MR. HAGERMAN: The reason we wanted to

12 lock this by some date, obviously May 1 is not

13 reasonable, is we selected everybody here because of

14 their expertise, right? We don't want to have a

15 situation where we could consider alternates on a

16 rolling basis when we don't know what their expertise

17 was, right? So, this was sort of carefully designed,

18 this committee was carefully designed because you're

19 all experts in this field. I think it's fine to have

20 alternates, but let's just say by a certain date

21 we're going to list alternates and let's, as a group,

22 agree on those alternates.
ASRAC Miscellaneous Refrigeration Working Group Meeting

May 4, 2015

202-347-3700 Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. 866-928-6509

Page 72

1 MR. RAMIREZ: Let me push you all a little

2 bit. What about by the end of tomorrow, before we

3 leave tomorrow you have your designated alternate? 

4 Jennifer.

5 MS. CLEARY: I'm not sure that will be

6 possible for me.

7 MR. RAMIREZ: Okay. How much time will

8 you need?

9 MS. CLEARY: Just like one other day, I

10 think, would be enough for me.

11 MR. HAGERMAN: Let's say by the end of the

12 week, and then we can vote over email. We've taken

13 votes before over email.

14 MR. RAMIREZ: Okay. So, let me see a show

15 of comfort if everyone's okay by the end of the week

16 to have a designated alternate.

17 MR. HAGERMAN: Because this group is going

18 to be voting on the alternates.

19 MR. RAMIREZ: By the close of business on

20 Friday.

21 (Vote taken.)

22 MR. RAMIREZ: So, close of business on
ASRAC Miscellaneous Refrigeration Working Group Meeting

May 4, 2015

202-347-3700 Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. 866-928-6509

Page 73

1 Friday will be the designated alternate.

2 MS. HOFFMAN: Send it to Javier.

3 MR. HAGERMAN: So, after we get those,

4 you'll circulate that list to everybody and then this

5 group will have to vote yes or no to this.

6 MS. HOFFMAN: Right. Yes, but also the

7 alternates if we get their contact information the

8 alternates will get the materials. They'll be fully

9 briefed so that if you can't go, they're able to

10 serve in your stead.

11 MR. HON: Charlie Hon.

12 I'm assuming you'll send over the ones of

13 us who already did appoint an alternate to Javier.

14 MR. RAMIREZ: Could I suggest that you

15 resubmit. I'll give you all my card before we leave

16 today, but resubmit the name, that way we have a

17 fresh list.

18 MS. HOFFMAN: We'll give you a gold star,

19 though, too.

20 MR. RAMIREZ: Yes. Okay. And then we

21 will check for the level of consensus at that time as

22 well via email.
ASRAC Miscellaneous Refrigeration Working Group Meeting

May 4, 2015

202-347-3700 Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. 866-928-6509

Page 74

1 Quorum, how many folks for a quorum? 

2 Again, the number I'm throwing out there as a

3 beginning point for discussion would be a super

4 majority again of 10.

5 MR. MOUW: This is Nathan from Whirlpool.

6 I was just wondering is this the complete

7 list of those currently in the committee? I mean

8 what is the total number of us if just count there's

9 14 of us?

10 MR. RAMIREZ: Fourteen.

11 MR. MOUW: Okay. Thank you.

12 MR. RAMIREZ: Let me see a show of thumbs

13 then for 10 is your number for a quorum, and they

14 could be online as well.

15 (Vote taken.)

16 MR. RAMIREZ: Okay.

17 MS. CLEARY: Jen Cleary.

18 I have the same concern I had with the

19 voting, just I want to make sure that each kind of

20 group is representing at all of the meetings. So, I

21 don't know if we've resolved that through numbers or

22 through qualifying the numbers that you know at least
ASRAC Miscellaneous Refrigeration Working Group Meeting

May 4, 2015

202-347-3700 Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. 866-928-6509

Page 75

1 one party from each of our different sectors is

2 present, but I would just be concerned, especially,

3 because we only have three meetings after this

4 there's just not a lot of time and I think all of us

5 our interests are served by having everyone informed

6 and in agreement. And I think 10 out 14 is -- that's

7 a lot of missing people at a meeting.

8 MR. HAGERMAN: Do you have a proposal for

9 a number?

10 MS. CLEARY: Eleven or twelve.

11 MS. DANE: This is Mary from Traulsen.

12 I agree with the point that you're making. 

13 My concern is, is that not all of us live in the D.C.

14 area, and it's very expensive to get here and make

15 reservations to only arrive and find out we don't

16 have enough to conduct business. And so, my concern

17 would be since we're letting people call in you know

18 why we couldn't go with a smaller number of people

19 present to get the job done.

20 MR. RAMIREZ: Yes. And I want to clarify

21 that. We've have done it -- and Emily at the GoTo

22 Meeting where if we do have voting members on we open
ASRAC Miscellaneous Refrigeration Working Group Meeting

May 4, 2015

202-347-3700 Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. 866-928-6509

Page 76

1 up the mike. They can contribute. That's why we

2 also push on these things that they can hear all of

3 us. If there's a vote, we make sure that we get

4 their vote counted as well. We've asked them where's

5 your thumb and they just have to verbally tell us if

6 it's sideways or up. So, they do fully participate

7 through GoTo Meeting if they can't physically make it

8 here.

9 So, let me go back to Jennifer.

10 MS. CLEARY: Jennifer Cleary.

11 My comment was assuming the remote

12 participation, but I didn't think about your point,

13 and that's a really good point.

14 MR. RAMIREZ: Rick.

15 MR. TOPPING: Just clarification, how's

16 the voting work with a reduced number of people at a

17 meeting? Is it still the three?

18 MR. RAMIREZ: Yes. That's why I was

19 trying to be clear that it had to be the "no" vote

20 because the numbers may fluctuate.

21 MS. HOFFMAN: Okay, we would need a quorum

22 for the vote.
ASRAC Miscellaneous Refrigeration Working Group Meeting

May 4, 2015

202-347-3700 Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. 866-928-6509

Page 77

1 MR. RAMIREZ: That's correct.

2 MS. HOFFMAN: And actually, you need a

3 quorum to hold a meeting to conduct business.

4 MR. RAMIREZ: So, this is exactly why we

5 use this process that if there's a thumb's down, we

6 have the discussion. If there's any clarity, the

7 dialogue helps. We re-check that vote to see how you

8 all are. So, let's see again a show of thumbs if

9 you're okay with 10 for a quorum number? There has

10 to be 10 folks present, either physically or online.

11 MR. TOPPING: I'm sorry. Just to clarify,

12 the document talks about only voting. And then

13 Eileen, you talked about also conducting business.

14 MS. HOFFMAN: So, you actually hold the

15 meeting. Yes.

16 MR. TOPPING: So, the document then is not

17 clear on that point. Okay, so to actually hold a

18 meeting a quorum needs to be established.

19 MS. HOFFMAN: Yes.

20 MR. HAGERMAN: Now, remember this document

21 is a draft for the committee to you know to finalize

22 today, right, so this is a straw man.
ASRAC Miscellaneous Refrigeration Working Group Meeting

May 4, 2015

202-347-3700 Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. 866-928-6509

Page 78

1 MR. TOPPING: I just wanted to clarify so

2 everybody's on the same page.

3 MS. HOFFMAN: Well, thank you. Yes.

4 MR. TOPPING: Thanks.

5 MS. CLEARY: Jennifer Cleary.

6 I'm sorry. I feel like I have too many

7 questions, but so if we had -- let's say a quorum is

8 10 and during the meeting we feel like, oh geez, you

9 know a whole sector is not here. You could just vote

10 down to say let's talk about it and vote at the next

11 meeting 'til everyone's represented.

12 MR. RAMIREZ: Yes, if there were enough

13 "no" votes, then, yes, it wouldn't go through. But

14 then even if you had "no" vote we would ask why. And

15 if that was the reason stated, then the group would

16 have to decide how to move forward.

17 The other thing too is that if we needed

18 to rearrange the agenda a little bit to help

19 accommodate for something like that that's something

20 that we could talk about and do as well. Understand

21 this is your process. We're just here to try to

22 facilitate it, so if you all need that flexibility,
ASRAC Miscellaneous Refrigeration Working Group Meeting

May 4, 2015

202-347-3700 Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. 866-928-6509

Page 79

1 Eileen and I are here to try to provide some the

2 structure, not the force or mandate anything on you. 

3 Okay.

4 Rick, did you have anything else?

5 MR. TOPPING: Dick Topping, Sub-Zero.

6 I was just wondering if there was the

7 possibility say to delay a vote until more people

8 could be involved if that appeared to be important.

9 MR. RAMIREZ: Again, you all control that. 

10 So, the only thing I would suggest on that is that if

11 you knew that we were going to be discussing that let

12 us know up front and we'll try to rearrange the

13 agenda.

14 MR. TOPPING: Thank you.

15 MR. RAMIREZ: So, the sooner you know that

16 the better we could deal with it.

17 MS. HOFFMAN: This is not meant as

18 doctrine. It's an attempt to try to conduct business

19 and make sure all the people are here. So, don't

20 worry. You'll be getting emails from us "Are you

21 coming?" "We need you," et cetera.

22 MR. HON: Charlie Hon, True Manufacturing.
ASRAC Miscellaneous Refrigeration Working Group Meeting

May 4, 2015

202-347-3700 Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. 866-928-6509

Page 80

1 We don't know about George, whether he's

2 actually going to be on the committee or not,

3 obviously here, because he's not here. What would be

4 the super majority if we would add a member or we

5 would take one off?

6 MR. RAMIREZ: Again, I think that's

7 something that you all would have to address, if you

8 thought that the structure changed significantly then

9 we would raise that, but I'm just throwing out a

10 number of 10, just using that as a super majority as

11 a marker. So, if we get word that three people are

12 dropping out of the committee, we may have to revisit

13 some of what you previously agreed to. Okay. But I

14 would ask then somebody from your group would

15 probably have to call that to question, right?

16 Okay, Dick I'm assuming you just didn't

17 put it down? I don't want to ignore you.

18 MR. TOPPING: I'm sorry.

19 MR. RAMIREZ: Okay. That's okay.

20 MR. HAGERMAN: Joe Hagerman again.

21 Let's keep in mind on page 4, item 7, says

22 that the working group members may propose
ASRAC Miscellaneous Refrigeration Working Group Meeting

May 4, 2015

202-347-3700 Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. 866-928-6509

Page 81

1 modifications to this document at any given time, so

2 we can come back. If we add members -- I mean if we

3 add a member the member needs to read this document

4 and everything. And you know if he or she wants to

5 make changes then they need to bring that up to the

6 group.

7 But I agree with what Eileen says. This

8 whole process is not a process of gotcha, right? 

9 We're trying to make this as fair and open for all

10 the members because you know we need your

11 professional opinions and expert advice to set these

12 test procedures and standards.

13 MR. RAMIREZ: Any other questions or

14 discussion?

15 (No response.)

16 MR. RAMIREZ: All right, so let me see

17 some thumbs on 10, 10 for a quorum.

18 (Vote taken.)

19 MR. RAMIREZ: Okay. Now, let's look at

20 that section and see what do we need to modify under

21 quorum before any business may occur. Does that

22 language accurately reflect what we just agreed to?
ASRAC Miscellaneous Refrigeration Working Group Meeting

May 4, 2015

202-347-3700 Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. 866-928-6509

Page 82

1 MS. HOFFMAN: Ask Nate? Does that --

2 thank you.

3 MR. RAMIREZ: Thank you. All right, so

4 then what we're going to do then is we're going to

5 back up and Eileen is going to walk you through the

6 rest of the ground rules. And again, these were just

7 a way to provide some structure for the conversation. 

8 You could tweak anything that you see in here in

9 order to make it acceptable. Okay.

10 MS. HOFFMAN: Right. So, you also have a

11 copy of it right in front of you. So, looking at

12 one, the goal of the working group, any comments as

13 to the goal of the working group?

14 (No response.)

15 MR. HAGERMAN: Javier, do you want to

16 start taking votes on each paragraph so everybody

17 comfortable with as written? There's a lot of these

18 that I don't think anybody can really have objection

19 to.

20 MS. HOFFMAN: I just want to make sure

21 you've read it, though. No offense. I'm a fast

22 reader.
ASRAC Miscellaneous Refrigeration Working Group Meeting

May 4, 2015

202-347-3700 Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. 866-928-6509

Page 83

1 MR. RAMIREZ: Dick, did you have a

2 question on it?

3 MR. TOPPING: No.

4 MR. RAMIREZ: Okay. Let's see a show of

5 thumbs for number one then if you're -- I'm sorry,

6 Jennifer.

7 MS. CLEARY: Jen Cleary.

8 I just noticed that this doesn't mention

9 test procedures and we will be talking about those. 

10 So, like for example, the purpose of the working

11 group will be to discuss, and if possible, reach

12 consensus regarding the development of energy

13 conservation standards. I'm not sure how we include

14 test procedures there.

15 MS. HOFFMAN: And "test procedures"?

16 MR. RAMIREZ: Yes.

17 MS. HOFFMAN: Any other comments?

18 (No response.)

19 MS. CLEARY: And I think the next

20 paragraph has the same issue, the working group is

21 expected to negotiate a final term sheet regarding

22 energy conservation standards and test procedures,
ASRAC Miscellaneous Refrigeration Working Group Meeting

May 4, 2015

202-347-3700 Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. 866-928-6509

Page 84

1 the first sentence of the next paragraph. There are

2 two, yes.

3 MS. HOFFMAN: Including test procedures. 

4 Okay.

5 MR. RAMIREZ: Is that okay, Jennifer? 

6 Okay. Thank you. All right, let's see a show of

7 thumbs for number one.

8 (Vote taken.)

9 MS. HOFFMAN: All right, moving right

10 along, number two, participants. Take a look at all

11 of those and we'll discuss that. Do you want to do

12 it paragraph by paragraph or just the whole thing,

13 the first three bullets?

14 MR. RAMIREZ: Yes.

15 MS. HOFFMAN: Take a look at the first

16 three. We look at the parties, the working group

17 members, and alternates.

18 (Working group reads the document.)

19 MR. RAMIREZ: All right, any questions or

20 comments on those first three bullets?

21 MS. MAUER: On alternates, I think it

22 makes sense to have designated alternates so that
ASRAC Miscellaneous Refrigeration Working Group Meeting

May 4, 2015

202-347-3700 Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. 866-928-6509

Page 85

1 they can be hopefully well informed about the

2 discussions. I guess I'm wondering whether we might

3 want to include some language about kind of

4 extenuating circumstances and alternates in the

5 event ^^^^

6 MS. HOFFMAN: Extenuating circumstances

7 the organization could send a different alternate.

8 MS. MAUER: Yes. I don't know what folks

9 think about that.

10 MS. HOFFMAN: That gets to Tim's concern.

11 MS. MAUER: Right.

12 MS. HOFFMAN: Discussion?

13 MR. HAGERMAN: I think as long as you just

14 want to add the line at the very end of the

15 alternates. And then as a group we know if that

16 happens we'll send that member's name out to

17 everybody and everybody will need to vote on it,

18 right, it seems fair enough.

19 MS. HOFFMAN: In case of extenuating

20 circumstances, the organization will send a different

21 alternate.

22 MR. RAMIREZ: A working class member,
ASRAC Miscellaneous Refrigeration Working Group Meeting

May 4, 2015

202-347-3700 Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. 866-928-6509

Page 86

1 right?

2 MR. HAGERMAN: A working group.

3 MR. RAMIREZ: Designated alternate.

4 MR. MOUW: Is "nominate" the word we

5 should be using since it will be voted on?

6 MS. CLEARY: And I think that should be

7 expressly stated here that it needs to be voted on as

8 well because I totally agree with the concept, but as

9 long as they're voted on.

10 MS. HOFFMAN: We'll make it specific then.

11 MR. HON: This is Charlie Hon.

12 A question for you. Since the members

13 were voted on by ASRAC parent group, is it a

14 responsibility of the ASRAC parent group to also vote

15 on the alternates?

16 MR. HAGERMAN: I don't think so.

17 MS. HOFFMAN: It hasn't been in the past.

18 MR. HAGERMAN: Yes, it's not been in the

19 past.

20 MS. HOFFMAN: Thank you, though, for

21 bringing that up. And as one of the ASRAC reps, but

22 it hasn't been in the past; but I think we've been
ASRAC Miscellaneous Refrigeration Working Group Meeting

May 4, 2015

202-347-3700 Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. 866-928-6509

Page 87

1 able to do it.

2 MR. RAMIREZ: All right, so with that

3 amendment there, how do the three first bullets look

4 under number two?

5 MR. MARCINIAK: Yes, I just had one quick

6 question. So, you're saying that the alternates that

7 we have appointed and that we're sending to you that

8 we don't need this approval. And that if they're not

9 an alternate that was already submitted, then we need

10 to go through this process of nomination. I just

11 wanted to make sure that that's process we're using

12 here.

13 MR. RAMIREZ: The alternates that you're

14 all going to designate by the end of the week we're

15 going to send those out and get everyone to approve

16 the list of alternates and then any changes to that

17 we'll get that out as well.

18 MS. HOFFMAN: Did that answer your --

19 MR. MARCINIAK: Yes.

20 MS. CLEARY: Jen Cleary.

21 I think this last sentence it's a little

22 confusing in the context of the whole paragraph
ASRAC Miscellaneous Refrigeration Working Group Meeting

May 4, 2015

202-347-3700 Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. 866-928-6509

Page 88

1 because we're talking about alternates and then we're

2 talking about alternate alternates, so perhaps this

3 sentence should say "In case of an extenuating

4 circumstance a working group member may nominate a

5 substitute alternate for approval by the working

6 group."

7 MR. MOUW: In the second bullet point, the

8 last few words say "maintain the representation or

9 requirements," I may have missed it or is that the

10 bullet just above that that refers to? Does anybody

11 know or is there another section that talks about

12 representation requirements?

13 MR. RAMIREZ: I know that there's

14 something in the Federal Register that says what you

15 all are committed to do as working group members. I

16 believe that that's probably what it's referring to.

17 MS. HOFFMAN: Yes.

18 MR. RAMIREZ: So, I remember some of them

19 were just that you're here to contribute your

20 expertise, that you're here to explore alternatives,

21 try to reach agreement, things like that. I don't

22 think there's anything too onerous that's in your
ASRAC Miscellaneous Refrigeration Working Group Meeting

May 4, 2015

202-347-3700 Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. 866-928-6509

Page 89

1 obligations.

2 MR. HON: This is Charlie Hon.

3 There's also a requirement that we not

4 only represent our own company interest, but also the

5 industry of which we're representing.

6 MR. BALLO: Tim with Earth Justice.

7 This is a niggling point, but I think this

8 actually -- the sentence that we're working on, on

9 the extenuating circumstances really belongs on page

10 2 under the alternates' bullet, just to clarify that

11 the May 1 or May 8 deadline doesn't apply to those

12 extenuating circumstance alternate alternates.

13 MR. RAMIREZ: So, is everyone okay with

14 moving that last sentence under the third bullet that

15 we just added into the bullet under alternates a

16 little further down, everyone okay with that? All

17 right, so go to move it over there and then we'll

18 look at the first three bullets. So, we'll formally

19 approve that when we get to that section and what

20 about the first three bullets now that we've

21 discussed those, those first three bullets?

22 All right, let's see a show of thumbs.
ASRAC Miscellaneous Refrigeration Working Group Meeting

May 4, 2015

202-347-3700 Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. 866-928-6509

Page 90

1 (Vote taken.)

2 MR. RAMIREZ: Okay, so we're good on

3 those. And then let's look at attendance and

4 participation at meetings, one, two, A, B, C, D. All

5 right, so any discussion on one, two, A, B, C, D?

6 MR. BROWN: Bill Brown with GE.

7 2A, just want clarity on the working group

8 member calling upon another individual to elaborate,

9 does that refer to someone outside of the working

10 group?

11 MR. RAMIREZ: The way that it's worked in

12 the past is that there've been some folks that have

13 maybe folks from the public. And normally, we don't

14 get comments from the public until the end where we

15 have the time for public comment. So, if there was

16 somebody that you wanted to call on, then you could

17 do that.

18 MS. HOFFMAN: Sometimes it's been used for

19 expertise, somebody from your organization who's done

20 a study and presents it. So, you introduce them, but

21 they're not a member of the working group.

22 MR. RAMIREZ: All right, so with that
ASRAC Miscellaneous Refrigeration Working Group Meeting

May 4, 2015

202-347-3700 Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. 866-928-6509

Page 91

1 clarification, let's see a show of thumbs if you're

2 okay with one, two, and along with that A, B, C, D.

3 (Vote taken.)

4 MR. RAMIREZ: All right. So, let's look

5 at the final three bullets of number two, and here's

6 where we move some of that language.

7 (Working group reads the bullet points.)

8 MR. RAMIREZ: So, in addition to what you

9 have in front of you, you need to look at the screen

10 for the first bullet because there were some changes

11 on that one that are not on your sheet there. Take a

12 look at that before I ask for a show of thumbs.

13 (Pause.)

14 MR. RAMIREZ: All right, so let's see a

15 show of hands for the three final bullets of number

16 of two. I'm sorry, Roland?

17 MR. MARCINIAK: Roland from U-Line.

18 Should that just be a side note there? 

19 It said checked on Friday, or should there be a date

20 down there.

21 MR. RAMIREZ: The date's up above, May 8.

22 MR. MARCINIAK: Okay. I'm sorry.
ASRAC Miscellaneous Refrigeration Working Group Meeting

May 4, 2015

202-347-3700 Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. 866-928-6509

Page 92

1 MS. CLEARY: Jennifer.

2 This is so knit-picky, but I mean if we're

3 sending you the things by the end of the day on

4 Friday, I don't know if we can actually check the

5 consensus the same day or not, but I'll leave that

6 to everyone else's consideration.

7 MR. RAMIREZ: After?

8 MS. HOFFMAN: After.

9 MR. RAMIREZ: Charlie, what do you want to

10 edit there?

11 MR. HON: Charlie Hon.

12 I'm concerned because if we have a

13 substitute alternate coming in and there's not a

14 quorum, not including that substitute alternate we

15 could get in trouble because we're allowing for

16 another alternate to be nominated in case of

17 emergency situation, but without having a full quorum

18 to approve that nomination how do you operate?

19 MR. RAMIREZ: I think that the way that

20 that would work, though, is that hopefully we're

21 getting that name ahead of time, so we could do it by

22 email.
ASRAC Miscellaneous Refrigeration Working Group Meeting

May 4, 2015

202-347-3700 Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. 866-928-6509

Page 93

1 MR. HON: Okay, that makes sense to me. 

2 That'd be a good alternate possibility.

3 MR. HAGERMAN: Yes, just keep in mind, you

4 can join by webinar. You can vote over the phone. 

5 And in some situations, we send out an email question

6 to get people to vote on.

7 MR. RAMIREZ: All right, so then let's see

8 a show of thumbs for those three bullets then. I'm

9 sorry, Dick?

10 MR. TOPPING: Dick Topping, Sub-Zero.

11 Just a point of clarification, you're

12 talking about special voting here. I assume that's

13 not participating by webinar and voting. I mean are

14 you anticipating being able to vote via webinar if

15 you cannot be here in person?

16 MR. RAMIREZ: Yes, we do vote by webinar.

17 MR. TOPPING: Okay.

18 MR. HAGERMAN: We really prefer you to be

19 here.

20 MR. TOPPING: I understand. That issue

21 with special I wasn't sure what "special voting"

22 meant.
ASRAC Miscellaneous Refrigeration Working Group Meeting

May 4, 2015

202-347-3700 Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. 866-928-6509

Page 94

1 MR. RAMIREZ: Tim, you had something?

2 MR. BALLO: This is Tim with Earth

3 Justice.

4 I'm still not quite clear on that. 

5 Special voting?

6 MS. HOFFMAN: We can eliminate voting.

7 MR. BALLO: Because it seems if we're

8 going to allow voting via the webinar I guess it's

9 telephone or email voting is special voting?

10 MR. RAMIREZ: How about striking

11 "special"?

12 MS. HOFFMAN: Yes.

13 MR. BALLO: Then my other question is do

14 we need the language at the end "As determined by the

15 working group and the facilitators" because if we're

16 going to allow it, then we just allow it and if we're

17 not then we're not?

18 MR. RAMIREZ: Well, then period after

19 weather?

20 MS. HOFFMAN: This is two concepts. One

21 is proxy voting, which is we don't want somebody to

22 vote you. You know that concept. The other one if
ASRAC Miscellaneous Refrigeration Working Group Meeting

May 4, 2015

202-347-3700 Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. 866-928-6509

Page 95

1 we eliminate the language. Yes.

2 MR. RAMIREZ: How does that look to

3 everyone?

4 MR. BROWN: This is Bill at GE.

5 I would think you could eliminate

6 everything starting with the word "however" and be

7 okay.

8 MR. RAMIREZ: Could you repeat that,

9 please?

10 MR. BROWN: Eliminate that second

11 sentence, starting with the word "however."

12 MS. HOFFMAN: Because we're allowing

13 voting by email and telephone. Some other groups

14 have wanted people to really be here, and they put in

15 different you know caveats. Yes.

16 MS. CLEARY: Jen Cleary.

17 I truly understand that, but there's

18 nowhere in this document where we say we allow that,

19 so it seems like this is where we're saying it's

20 permitted.

21 MR. RAMIREZ: That was my hesitation. 

22 That's why I didn't hit the delete button yet.
ASRAC Miscellaneous Refrigeration Working Group Meeting

May 4, 2015

202-347-3700 Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. 866-928-6509

Page 96

1 MS. CLEARY: And if we keep it, we should

2 also add webinar, specifically, if that's our intent.

3 MR. BROWN: This is Bill at GE.

4 I would just put in a different bullet

5 then, specifically, this bullet is referring to proxy

6 voting. And another bullet that refers to voting, in

7 general, and say that we allow in person, via email,

8 telephone, carrier pigeon, telegram, whatever.

9 MR. RAMIREZ: All right, so we modified

10 there a little bit there, right? We separated the

11 proxy voting from alternate forms of voting. How

12 does that look to everybody?

13 MR. BROWN: Bill with GE.

14 It doesn't make sense with the parentheses

15 where they are. I mean I could take those out and

16 "voting may be allowed."

17 MS. CLEARY: Jennifer Cleary.

18 I think it should just say "voting as

19 permitted by" and then "be in person".

20 MS. HOFFMAN: Voting is permitted in

21 person, webinar, telephone, email.

22 MS. CLEARY: And Jennifer Cleary.
ASRAC Miscellaneous Refrigeration Working Group Meeting

May 4, 2015

202-347-3700 Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. 866-928-6509

Page 97

1 Maybe if we you know want to ensure that

2 people are here, I think the intent of having the

3 extenuating circumstances portion was to indicate the

4 preference is to be here, so we should say that here

5 that the preference is to be in person.

6 MS. HOFFMAN: The preference is in person. 

7 It's a preference as opposed to requirement.

8 MR. RAMIREZ: So, how do those four

9 bullets look now? Let's see a show of thumbs if

10 we're okay with those four bullets.

11 (Vote taken.)

12 MR. RAMIREZ: Okay. Then let's look at

13 number three. Let's take 3A and "B" and then we'll

14 do "C."

15 MR. HAGERMAN: And you should remind --

16 Javier, you should remind everybody that what you

17 like to do here is to vote on each paragraph, and

18 then when we come to the whole document re-vote on

19 the whole document.

20 MR. RAMIREZ: Right, just to make sure

21 that we're all good with everything. So, we have to

22 eat the elephant one bite at a time, so that's all
ASRAC Miscellaneous Refrigeration Working Group Meeting

May 4, 2015

202-347-3700 Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. 866-928-6509

Page 98

1 we're trying to do is to clarify.

2 All right, so then let's look at 3A and

3 "B."

4 (Working group review bullets.)

5 MR. RAMIREZ: Any questions or comments on

6 "A" and "B"?

7 (No response.)

8 MR. RAMIREZ: Let's see a show of thumbs

9 if you're okay with "A" and "B," 3A and "B."

10 (Vote taken.)

11 MR. RAMIREZ: Okay. So, we're good there. 

12 And then let's look at C1, 2, 3, and 4.

13 (Working group review bullets.)

14 MR. RAMIREZ: All right, so what number to

15 we want to put in number one there, some number lower

16 than what was on the sheet there of 15 or if possible

17 a subgroup?

18 MR. MARCINIAK: Roland from U-Line.

19 I don't think that it -- if we're saying

20 that we can appoint somebody to these subgroups, and

21 maybe we have experts in this case that we're more

22 referring to that might have more value in the
ASRAC Miscellaneous Refrigeration Working Group Meeting

May 4, 2015

202-347-3700 Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. 866-928-6509

Page 99

1 subgroups, I would think the more people the better. 

2 I would see why we wouldn't go with as many as 14. 

3 Each one of us could appoint a subcommittee panel

4 member to form this subcommittee and it might be

5 valid to have that many in a subcommittee because

6 they're not actually us, so I wouldn't see why we --

7 why would we want to potentially limit ourselves ever

8 in that regard?

9 MR. RAMIREZ: So, we'll throw 14 up there. 

10 And you all determine, right, you all determine if a

11 subgroup is appropriate and who's on it. Any other

12 changes to 1, 2, 3, or 4?

13 (No response.)

14 MR. RAMIREZ: All right, let's see a show

15 of thumbs if you're okay with C1, 2, 3, and 4.

16 (Vote taken.)

17 MR. RAMIREZ: Okay, we're good. Then

18 let's look at "D" and "E."

19 MS. HOFFMAN: The deadline for "E" would

20 be August 31, August 30?

21 MR. HAGERMAN: Joe Hagerman, DOE.

22 ASRAC gave us four meetings. I imagine
ASRAC Miscellaneous Refrigeration Working Group Meeting

May 4, 2015

202-347-3700 Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. 866-928-6509

Page 100

1 over four months, but we're going to do it in three.

2 (Laughter.)

3 MR. RAMIREZ: So, on the last one, the

4 term sheet, go to ASRAC on August 30 as well?

5 MR. HAGERMAN: August 31.

6 MR. RAMIREZ: Any other changes to "D" or

7 "E." Charlie?

8 MR. HON: August 30 is a Sunday. The 28th

9 is a Friday.

10 MR. RAMIREZ: 31 is a Monday? Okay, so

11 let me see a show of thumbs then if we're okay with

12 "D" and "E." I'm sorry, Bill, you have something?

13 MR. BROWN: Yes. I have one question on

14 "D." Who determines if the negotiations do not

15 appear productive?

16 MR. HAGERMAN: The default is DOE, I

17 guess, but we're not ever going to go there, all

18 right?

19 MR. BROWN: Well, I understand that, but

20 it's written in here. So, if it's going to be DOE,

21 I'd it like to say DOE will determine this, not you

22 know not Dick Topping or whoever else.
ASRAC Miscellaneous Refrigeration Working Group Meeting

May 4, 2015

202-347-3700 Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. 866-928-6509

Page 101

1 MR. HON: I think the committee has a

2 right to determine it as well.

3 MR. BROWN: I mean can that be explicitly

4 written because right here it sounds like anybody can

5 come --

6 MR. RAMIREZ: The working group or DOE?

7 MR. BROWN: You didn't say working group,

8 though, right?

9 MS. HOFFMAN: The committee is the working

10 group. ASRAC is the big one, but the working group

11 is this one.

12 MR. RAMIREZ: You, yes.

13 MS. HOFFMAN: You.

14 MR. RAMIREZ: All right, so we added DOE

15 in there as well. Any other modifications to "D" or

16 "E"?

17 (No response.)

18 MR. RAMIREZ: All right, let's see a show

19 of thumbs if you're okay with "D" and "E."

20 (Vote taken.)

21 MR. RAMIREZ: Okay. Let's look at number

22 four, and let's look at the first two bullets.
ASRAC Miscellaneous Refrigeration Working Group Meeting

May 4, 2015

202-347-3700 Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. 866-928-6509

Page 102

1 MR. HAGERMAN: So, you need to amend these

2 -- everywhere where we say "standard" it should say

3 "standard and test procedure."

4 MS. HOFFMAN: Okay. And where it says

5 "supplemental" just say "rulemaking."

6 MR. RAMIREZ: Okay, so we've added test

7 procedures. And then where it says "supplemental" we

8 struck "supplemental" wherever we saw that.

9 MR. HAGERMAN: You need to say -- just

10 because the test procedure in NOPR is out, so when

11 the group comes to a consensus it will be a

12 supplemental, so it should say supplemental and/or --

13 MS. BUTLER: This is Sarah Butler.

14 It should say "supplemental proposed rule"

15 and "proposed rule" because with the test procedures

16 it will be in the form of a supplemental proposed

17 rule. And for the standards it will be in the form

18 of a proposed rule. It should say "and." I mean if

19 we're planning on proposing both, then it should say

20 "and."

21 MS. CLEARY: Should "proposed rule" go

22 first because we are saying standards and test
ASRAC Miscellaneous Refrigeration Working Group Meeting

May 4, 2015

202-347-3700 Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. 866-928-6509

Page 103

1 procedures, so it would be parallel --.

2 MS. HOFFMAN: So, proposed rule and

3 supplemental proposed rule.

4 MS. BUTLER: This is Sarah Butler again

5 from DOE.

6 So, then below it should reflect what's

7 above, notice of proposed rulemaking -- and

8 "rulemaking" is one word -- and supplemental notice

9 of proposed rulemaking.

10 MR. RAMIREZ: And in this case, as well,

11 the same thing as this one, right?

12 MS. BUTLER: Yes. And the title of that

13 section should be "Statement as Basis for NOPR and as

14 NOPR."

15 MR. RAMIREZ: I'll give you all a minute

16 to look at that because that was an awful lot of

17 cutting and pasting going on.

18 (Pause.)

19 MS. HOFFMAN: And we're going to send this

20 to you as well so that you'll have it.

21 MR. MOUW: Nathan Mouw from Whirlpool.

22 And at the very end of both of these
ASRAC Miscellaneous Refrigeration Working Group Meeting

May 4, 2015

202-347-3700 Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. 866-928-6509

Page 104

1 bullets we say the words "final rule." That is not a

2 possible outcome of this activity, right, so should

3 we scratch the "final rule" part of it.

4 MS. HOFFMAN: Yes, or publication of final

5 rule, just end it at rulemaking.

6 MR. HAGERMAN: So, yes. However, I think

7 in the case of the test procedure I would like to

8 think that we're closer than we're farther. And so,

9 I think, as a group, we may want to final rule with

10 the test procedure stuff, but we can come back to

11 that after we've had the test procedure discussions. 

12 So, let's just strike it here and we can come back to

13 it.

14 MS. BUTLER: This is Sarah Butler again.

15 If we did go to final rule with the test

16 procedure, we should probably be saying notice of

17 proposed rulemaking or supplemental notice of

18 proposed rulemaking if there's a possibility that we

19 wouldn't be publishing it as a NOPR.

20 MR. HAGERMAN: So, we'll come back to it

21 after the test procedure. That's the one case that I

22 think this group may want to go to final rule, but
ASRAC Miscellaneous Refrigeration Working Group Meeting

May 4, 2015

202-347-3700 Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. 866-928-6509

Page 105

1 that's speculative, of course.

2 MR. BALLO: Tim Ballo with Earth Justice.

3 So there's a sentence there towards the

4 end of the long bullet, "DOE staff will be

5 responsible for translating this term sheet and

6 analysis into the language of a proposed supplemental

7 rule, its supporting preamble, regulatory impact

8 analysis, et cetera." I think it should probably say

9 will be responsible for translating this term sheet

10 and analysis into the language of proposed

11 regulations, their supporting preamble -- otherwise,

12 we have to go through proposed NOPR and proposed

13 SNOPR too.

14 MS. HOFFMAN: Charlie?

15 MR. HON: I don't think we could go

16 directly to proposed final rules because this has to

17 go to the general ASRAC Committee. It cannot go

18 straight out of here.

19 MS. DANE: This is Mary from Traulsen.

20 I also have a concern about on the test

21 procedure going straight to final rule without some

22 of the public that is not participating to be
ASRAC Miscellaneous Refrigeration Working Group Meeting

May 4, 2015

202-347-3700 Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. 866-928-6509

Page 106

1 weigh-in. We've had several final rules come out

2 with test procedures and we have some real concerns

3 with variances and we need to -- I think we need to

4 pay attention to that. So, I can't really see that I

5 would be able to vote for going to final rule.

6 MR. HAGERMAN: Got it. I said

7 speculation. I should've said bad speculation. I

8 apologize.

9 MS. DANE: Well, I appreciate the

10 speculation, and my hope is that too, but unless we

11 can deal with some of those issues that you know keep

12 cropping their little heads up I can't say that I can

13 vote for a final rule on test procedures.

14 MR. RAMIREZ: So, let me be clear, do you

15 we need to reverse what we just did up here in that

16 first paragraph and keep it as a proposed

17 supplemental rule then?

18 MS. HOFFMAN: Yes, I think we don't have

19 final rule up there, right?

20 MR. HAGERMAN: Everything up there is

21 correct. Everybody's just been commenting on my bad,

22 bad, bad speculation.
ASRAC Miscellaneous Refrigeration Working Group Meeting

May 4, 2015

202-347-3700 Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. 866-928-6509

Page 107

1 MR. RAMIREZ: All right, Bill and Joanna.

2 MR. BROWN: Yes, this is Bill from GE.

3 Just kind of picky, you say "standards and

4 test procedure." I think it should be "procedures." 

5 We are talking about at least two different types of

6 test procedures in this committee.

7 MR. RAMIREZ: Okay, what line is that?

8 MR. BROWN: Everywhere you mention "test

9 procedure" I think it should be "test procedures."

10 MR. RAMIREZ: Okay, Joanna.

11 MS. MAUER: Joanna Mauer.

12 I was just going to say my understanding

13 is that this committee can make recommendations about

14 test procedures. We can make recommendations about

15 standard levels. I don't know that we can decide on

16 a DOE process. It seems like it's up to DOE to then

17 determine what's the appropriate process to implement

18 the recommendations that we're making on standards

19 and test procedures.

20 MR. RAMIREZ: Okay. And with that, this

21 language is okay then the way that we've modified it?

22 MS. MAUER: I think so.
ASRAC Miscellaneous Refrigeration Working Group Meeting

May 4, 2015

202-347-3700 Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. 866-928-6509

Page 108

1 MR. HON: This is Charlie Hon.

2 ASRAC, this working group, nor the parent

3 working group can make final rules. We just make

4 recommendations to the Department of Energy.

5 MR. RAMIREZ: Yes, I think we're all on

6 the same page there. All right, so again, I'm going

7 to give you a couple of minutes to look at that one

8 because we kept moving stuff around, so let's make

9 sure that we're okay with those first two bullets.

10 (Working group reviews the bullets.)

11 MR. RAMIREZ: Jennifer?

12 MS. CLEARY: This is so detailed, but I

13 think that when we just say "proposed rule and

14 supplemental propose rule" it's very vague. It

15 almost sounds like what we're anticipating is that

16 there could be both for one like the standards or the

17 test procedure. So, if we really want to be

18 specific, it probably ought to say "proposed rule for

19 standards and supplemental proposed rule for test

20 procedures" in each one of these cases just to

21 lengthen our editorial preference.

22 MR. RAMIREZ: Could you repeat that? I'm
ASRAC Miscellaneous Refrigeration Working Group Meeting

May 4, 2015

202-347-3700 Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. 866-928-6509

Page 109

1 sorry.

2 MS. CLEARY: "Proposed rule for standards

3 and supplemental proposed rule for test procedures." 

4 I don't know if others agree.

5 MR. RAMIREZ: Anything else on those first

6 two bullets?

7 (No response.)

8 MR. RAMIREZ: All right, let's see a show

9 of thumbs then for the first two bullets.

10 MR. TOPPING: Dick Topping, Sub-Zero.

11 I mean just to be maybe picky and maybe

12 somewhat factitious, but I mean the stakeholders have

13 been making the point to DOE for a long time that

14 test procedures should precede standards. And so, in

15 some respects, it would nice to word this whole thing

16 with the test procedures first and the standard

17 second.

18 MR. RAMIREZ: All right, for my sanity, is

19 everyone okay with the way it is here?

20 MS. HOFFMAN: Sarah.

21 MS. BUTLER: This is Sarah Butler.

22 Not in the sentence that's highlighted
ASRAC Miscellaneous Refrigeration Working Group Meeting

May 4, 2015

202-347-3700 Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. 866-928-6509

Page 110

1 currently, but wherever we're referring to a Notice

2 of Proposed Rulemaking we should also refer to a

3 Supplemental Notice of Proposed Rulemaking. So,

4 you'll just have to have notice in there, yes, and in

5 the other paragraph as well.

6 MR. RAMIREZ: And Dick, that editing

7 that's substitutive, right, what you're talking

8 about. That's more style than substance? I want to

9 make sure.

10 MR. TOPPING: Maybe I'll ask Jennifer to

11 answer that.

12 MR. CLEARY: I think it is substance.

13 MR. RAMIREZ: All right, well let's get it

14 right then. So, can you repeat again, Dick, what you

15 wanted to do there?

16 MR. HAGERMAN: Why don't we do this, guys,

17 just real quick. Why don't we punt on this one

18 because I think we understand the intention is to

19 flip those, but it's going to take you time

20 mechanically flip them; but why don't you do that

21 over lunch, right, because we're getting close to a

22 lunch break? Why don't we see if we can't move on to
ASRAC Miscellaneous Refrigeration Working Group Meeting

May 4, 2015

202-347-3700 Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. 866-928-6509

Page 111

1 get some temperature votes or votes on the final

2 ones. And then after lunch, when you come back

3 you'll have mechanically flips all of those.

4 MR. WATSON: Fair enough. Do you mind

5 letting me know if the way that I have it now that is

6 how you want it "supplemental proposed rule for test

7 procedures and propose rule for standard."

8 MR. HAGERMAN: The intent there is the

9 test procedure gets written about first before you

10 talk about the standard. I don't know if there's

11 other places in the document where we need to re-look

12 at that.

13 MR. RAMIREZ: We'll do a search and see if

14 we could find it. So, then understanding that we'll

15 make that editing change are you okay then with first

16 two bullets of number four, show of thumbs?

17 (Vote taken.)

18 MR. RAMIREZ: All right, just so you know,

19 I was starting to put my hand on the ignition key. I

20 was about to spark up the steamroller and steamroll

21 Dick because if I don't see a thumbs down, we're

22 good.
ASRAC Miscellaneous Refrigeration Working Group Meeting

May 4, 2015

202-347-3700 Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. 866-928-6509

Page 112

1 It's your responsibility -- and I want to

2 make it clear as the process goes on it's your

3 responsibility that if you're not in agreement to put

4 your thumb down and then state why so we can have the

5 discussion or offer an alternative, okay, because we

6 don't want anybody walking out of here saying well I

7 didn't agree to it. The only way you don't agree to

8 it is if your thumb is down, okay? All right, so

9 that's just a little procedure.

10 So, let's go at the next three bullets, no

11 negative comments, response to public comments, and

12 no adverse actions support.

13 MS. HOFFMAN: Well, if you add "the no

14 challenge," we're done with that.

15 MR. RAMIREZ: Yes, there's one more

16 bullet, so let's hit the last four then.

17 (Working group reviews bullets.)

18 MR. RAMIREZ: All right, so then let's

19 look at those last four bullets under number four. 

20 Are there any modifications that you'd like to make

21 on those last four bullets?

22 MS. DANE: This is Mary from Traulsen.
ASRAC Miscellaneous Refrigeration Working Group Meeting

May 4, 2015

202-347-3700 Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. 866-928-6509

Page 113

1 I would at least like to ask a question,

2 and that's about no negative comments and no

3 challenge and things like that. Will you be

4 recording the actual outcome of the vote because

5 somewhere --

6 MR. RAMIREZ: Yes.

7 MS. DANE: -- in between where we make a

8 recommendation and the DOE writes a rule it doesn't

9 always get to the final rule to the process that you

10 know we may or may not have a negative comment if

11 something we've suggested was overlooked. And I

12 don't see how you could take a person's right to you

13 know free speech away from saying that something

14 didn't work out at the end if you didn't record the

15 vote or who was the negative vote and who was.

16 MR. RAMIREZ: We will be recording all the

17 votes.

18 MS. DANE: Okay.

19 MR. RAMIREZ: But I do want to make clear

20 what we're recording is a yes or a no. So, if you're

21 sideways, that's a yes. So, we're recording that as

22 a yes.
ASRAC Miscellaneous Refrigeration Working Group Meeting

May 4, 2015

202-347-3700 Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. 866-928-6509

Page 114

1 MS. DANE: Okay.

2 MR. RAMIREZ: But if your thumb is down,

3 then we make sure that we mark that. Jennifer?

4 MS. CLEARY: Jen Cleary.

5 I think the comments we were just making

6 on the last section apply here as well, so when those

7 mechanical changes are happening over lunch you know

8 including test procedure and standards and all that

9 stuff should go in this section too.

10 MR. RAMIREZ: All right. We'll have eyes

11 on that as well to make sure we catch them all.

12 MR. BALLO: Tim Ballo with Earth Justice.

13 I guess this is clarification. I know the

14 way this has worked in the past in the reg negs I

15 participated in is as we go through the term sheet we

16 vote on sections of the term sheet and those votes

17 are recorded. So, participants may object to certain

18 provisions of the term sheet, but then there is a

19 vote on the term sheet as a whole.

20 And I think, as I read this, you would not

21 -- if you vote for the term sheet as a whole, you

22 don't then have the opportunity to renew your
ASRAC Miscellaneous Refrigeration Working Group Meeting

May 4, 2015

202-347-3700 Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. 866-928-6509

Page 115

1 objections to those individual provisions of the term

2 sheet in your comments or in any litigation over the

3 final rule, and I'm okay with that. I just want to

4 make sure that's the understanding of everyone here.

5 MR. RAMIREZ: Is everyone clear on that?

6 MR. TOPPING: Just a question, it's a

7 hypothetical, I guess, in terms of the no challenge

8 bullet. My understanding is we are to provide

9 recommendations to DOE. Those recommendations are

10 then vetted through public meeting, and then DOE goes

11 ahead and sets a final rule or ultimately.

12 I mean I know this isn't the intent, but

13 if DOE were to come up with a final rule that was

14 materially different than the recommendations of this

15 group would this prohibit us from objecting to that

16 or challenging it?

17 MR. HAGERMAN: I don't think so because

18 then it's not based on the term sheet.

19 MR. TOPPING: Okay.

20 MR. HAGERMAN: What you're really talking

21 about here is everybody's negotiating on good faith

22 on this term sheet and we don't want you to negotiate
ASRAC Miscellaneous Refrigeration Working Group Meeting

May 4, 2015

202-347-3700 Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. 866-928-6509

Page 116

1 in good faith and when you leave the room you're like

2 those people are crazy, right? That's a bunch of

3 garbage, right?

4 MR. TOPPING: Right.

5 MR. HAGERMAN: So, that the intent here.

6 MR. RAMIREZ: All right, Mary, you good or

7 you have something?

8 MS. DANE: No, I'm fine.

9 MR. RAMIREZ: Okay. Okay, I just wanted

10 to make sure. Okay. All right, so any other

11 questions or comments on those last four bullets on

12 number four?

13 (No response.)

14 MR. RAMIREZ: All right, then let's see a

15 show of thumbs then if we're okay with the last four

16 bullets?

17 (Vote taken.)

18 MR. RAMIREZ: All right, we're good. And

19 let's take a look at number five.

20 (Working group reviews bullets.)

21 MR. RAMIREZ: Let's see a show of thumbs

22 then for number five if you're okay with number five.
ASRAC Miscellaneous Refrigeration Working Group Meeting

May 4, 2015

202-347-3700 Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. 866-928-6509

Page 117

1 (Vote taken.)

2 MR. RAMIREZ: All right, then let's take a

3 few minutes and look at number six, all three

4 bullets.

5 (Working group reviews bullets.)

6 MR. RAMIREZ: Actually, I'm going to see

7 if we could strike the third sentence, "The summaries

8 of the working group meeting prepared by the

9 facilitator" because we all were kind of condensed

10 the timeline and Joe's going to be sending out the

11 full transcripts as soon as they're available. 

12 Correct?

13 (No response.)

14 MR. RAMIREZ: Any other changes?

15 MR. BALLO: This is Tim at Earth Justice.

16 You need to take out the next sentence as

17 well, "such meeting summaries."

18 MR. RAMIREZ: Thank you.

19 MS. HOFFMAN: So, Joe, you'll be sending

20 out the transcripts?

21 MR. HAGERMAN: As soon as I get back a

22 good transcript from those dern (sic) transcript
ASRAC Miscellaneous Refrigeration Working Group Meeting

May 4, 2015

202-347-3700 Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. 866-928-6509

Page 118

1 people, I will send it out to you guys.

2 MR. RAMIREZ: No pressure.

3 MS. HOFFMAN: So, Joe, you'll be sending

4 out the transcripts? Correct -- Eileen Hoffman.

5 MR. RAMIREZ: Okay, any other -- Jennifer.

6 MS. CLEARY: I guess I just want to push

7 back a little bit on not getting summaries because I

8 guess I understand that that make take time for you

9 all to put together, but it strikes me that reading

10 the entire transcript on our end prior to the next

11 meeting will take more time. So, to me, it would be

12 helpful if we at least had some list of agreed to

13 action items or maybe we don't have meeting

14 summaries, but detailed agendas like today's agenda

15 was really not detailed. So, something with

16 descriptions of exactly what issues we will be

17 discussing to aid and ensure that we're all prepared. 

18 We all understand what happened at the last meeting

19 and what we still need to decide going forward.

20 MR. RAMIREZ: So, how about a line of

21 detailed agendas will be sent in advance.

22 MS. CLEARY: That's fine with me. I look
ASRAC Miscellaneous Refrigeration Working Group Meeting

May 4, 2015

202-347-3700 Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. 866-928-6509

Page 119

1 for input from others.

2 MR. HAGERMAN: Typically, what we do is

3 after these meetings we'll get assignments from the

4 working group to go do analysis or what not and

5 usually that's pretty clear at the very end of the

6 meeting what we are supposed to do. And then after

7 we do, those assignments, we usually send them Javier

8 and he sends them around to everybody before the next

9 meeting.

10 We're not trying to say we're going to

11 have one meeting and then everybody show up to the

12 next meeting without any kind of work being done, so

13 usually it takes us about 10 days to do the analysis

14 that's asked for and then end out stuff.

15 MS. CLEARY: Yes, that's sound perfect. 

16 It just sounded like we were kind of taking that

17 away, so I wanted to make sure that that's still

18 contemplated.

19 MR. HAGERMAN: What if you just said

20 detailed agendas and other supplemental materials

21 will be sent in advance of the meetings; is that all

22 right?
ASRAC Miscellaneous Refrigeration Working Group Meeting

May 4, 2015

202-347-3700 Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. 866-928-6509

Page 120

1 MS. CLEARY: Jen Cleary.

2 Yes, that's fine with me, although I might

3 also ask that we have like a week or something to

4 review them before the next meeting. I don't know if

5 others would like more time.

6 MR. RAMIREZ: The only thing just in being

7 in some of these other ones is that depending on the

8 request we just may not be able to get that

9 turnaround where you'd have a week. I think the

10 intention is to get it as soon as possible, but we

11 just have seen tight timelines where they've gotten

12 it three days in advance or two days in advance, but

13 the whole idea is for you to have it and be able to

14 look at it and contribute to the next meeting.

15 MS. CLEARY: Yes.

16 MR. RAMIREZ: And we would have to be

17 realistic of when those requests were made if they

18 can be done in advance.

19 MS. CLEARY: Yes, I certainly understand

20 that, and maybe this document isn't the place for

21 that; but my concern is that as a trade association

22 representative if I get something the day before I
ASRAC Miscellaneous Refrigeration Working Group Meeting

May 4, 2015

202-347-3700 Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. 866-928-6509

Page 121

1 can't be prepared because I can't contact my members

2 and you know and have their input on something like

3 that with a day turnaround time. So, I'm necessarily

4 need to see it in this document, but if we could all

5 have that mutual understanding. I think we all need

6 more than 24 hours at least to review something like

7 that.

8 MR. HAGERMAN: Absolutely.

9 MS. CLEARY: Especially, if it's detailed

10 analysis.

11 MR. HAGERMAN: We'll commit to that. As

12 soon as we can get the analysis, we will send it to

13 you and try to get it to you as quickly as possible

14 so you'll have that time. Lots of time in the past,

15 we'll send out the analysis and then you'll be

16 reviewing it. Somebody like you will be reviewing it

17 and they'll be like you know I need more analysis on

18 this one little detail, and so we quickly do that as

19 well. So, we're trying to be as responsible as

20 possible to keep up with the tight timeframe and to

21 make everybody as educated about these matters as

22 they need to be so when we come in here we can agree
ASRAC Miscellaneous Refrigeration Working Group Meeting

May 4, 2015

202-347-3700 Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. 866-928-6509

Page 122

1 to things.

2 MR. RAMIREZ: We usually deal with that on

3 a request-by-request situation, so depending on what

4 it is you're looking for we'll have an idea before we

5 leave of when you'll get it.

6 MS. HOFFMAN: And also, when we set the

7 meeting schedule, we'll try to make sure that there's

8 time for all the data in advance. We'll be doing

9 that very shortly.

10 MR. RAMIREZ: All right, so anything else

11 on those bullets of number six?

12 MR. MOUW: Nathan Mouw from Whirlpool.

13 I agree with Jen on the value of having a

14 short summary of the meeting. I'm not sure that it

15 was capture in that change, things like Jen said,

16 decisions made, votes taken, even if it's a

17 one-pager, just something to communicate the actions

18 that were taken and the decisions that were made

19 within the meeting.

20 MR. RAMIREZ: Does that capture it?

21 MR. MOUW: Yes, just capture brief

22 summaries of the prior meetings. Yes. Thank you.
ASRAC Miscellaneous Refrigeration Working Group Meeting

May 4, 2015

202-347-3700 Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. 866-928-6509

Page 123

1 MR. RAMIREZ: Any other modifications?

2 (No response.)

3 MR. RAMIREZ: All right, let's see a show

4 of thumbs then for those bullets at number six.

5 (Vote taken.)

6 MR. RAMIREZ: Okay. Now, number seven,

7 and this is something we've been talking about all

8 along that if we need to make changes we'll do them

9 at any time, right? So, let me see a show of thumbs

10 for bullet number seven.

11 (Vote taken.)

12 MR. RAMIREZ: All right, and number eight,

13 dates. 

14 MS. HOFFMAN: Joe, you have some ideas

15 about dates? We want the maximum number of people

16 here. May 4 and 5 we are here. You voted with your

17 feet, which is great. Now, for June, what were we

18 talking, June 3 and 4? Is that good for you, Javier?

19 MR. RAMIREZ: Yes.

20 MS. HOFFMAN: Is June 3 and 4 possible for

21 everybody? Take a look at your calendars.

22 MS. CLEARY: June 3 is not possible for
ASRAC Miscellaneous Refrigeration Working Group Meeting

May 4, 2015

202-347-3700 Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. 866-928-6509

Page 124

1 me.

2 MR. HAGERMAN: What about four and five?

3 MS. HOFFMAN: Four and five?

4 MR. HAGERMAN: Yes, that whole week may

5 not be good for me.

6 MS. CLEARY: Could I ask DOE or others who

7 have maybe participated in this type of process

8 before like could we expect that a lot of analysis

9 would be happening this meeting and the next, like

10 more than between other meetings or that you would

11 need more time?

12 MR. HAGERMAN: I mean that's a good

13 comment. At the beginning there's a lot less

14 analysis, right? So, I mean that's actually a good

15 observation. If we could it the week before, like

16 the end of May would probably be best, 27th, 28th. 

17 The problem is that's Memorial Day weekend or the

18 week of Memorial Day.

19 MR. RAMIREZ: Let me make a suggestion. 

20 What if we revisit the dates --

21 MS. HOFFMAN: When we come back after

22 lunch?
ASRAC Miscellaneous Refrigeration Working Group Meeting

May 4, 2015

202-347-3700 Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. 866-928-6509

Page 125

1 MR. RAMIREZ: Or maybe even at the end of

2 today or tomorrow let's see what we're dealing with

3 and then would schedule some dates. Is everyone okay

4 with that?

5 MS. HOFFMAN: Take your calendars with

6 you, yes, because I think we're looking at the end of

7 May, early June, then July sometime early and then

8 August, so two days in each of those months. 

9 Correct?

10 MR. RAMIREZ: Okay, then Joe, would you

11 mind explaining the lunch options. I know that we

12 have the Subway downstairs right next to the Dunkin

13 Donuts, but where's the cafeteria?

14 MR. HAGERMAN: I'm trying to think about

15 the easiest way to guide you to the cafeteria. So,

16 if you go to the ground floor of this building, I

17 believe there are signs that say the direction to the

18 cafeteria and you follow the signs to the cafeteria. 

19 Basically, you go to the ground floor, walk around

20 the labyrinth maze and then you pop up in the

21 cafeteria.

22 MR. RAMIREZ: How much time do you need to
ASRAC Miscellaneous Refrigeration Working Group Meeting

May 4, 2015

202-347-3700 Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. 866-928-6509

Page 126

1 get lost and eat and get back?

2 MR. HAGERMAN: I'm sorry. That's the

3 easiest way to explain it.

4 MS. HOFFMAN: Would it make sense -- it's

5 12:30 come back at 1:30.

6 MR. HAGERMAN: I think 1:30 would be fine. 

7 And so when you get back, I'm going to have the

8 pronounce of the technical PowerPoint that we're

9 going to give, and I'll pass those around and we'll

10 go through that with the discussion about coverage

11 and definitions. It's very similar to the public

12 presentations we've already made at the last two

13 meetings so that's what to expect.

14 MS. HOFFMAN: So, 1:30 is good?

15 MR. HAGERMAN: I think 1:30 would be

16 excellent.

17 MR. RAMIREZ: Before you go though, let's

18 see one final show of thumbs for the ground rules as

19 a whole. We went through section-by-section, but

20 ground rules as a whole let's see a show of thumbs,

21 and we'll make those minor editing.

22 MR. RAMIREZ: Okay, see you at 1:30.
ASRAC Miscellaneous Refrigeration Working Group Meeting

May 4, 2015

202-347-3700 Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. 866-928-6509

Page 127

1 MS. HOFFMAN: Thank you very much. Enjoy

2 your lunch.

3 (Whereupon, a lunch recess was taken.)

4 MR. RAMIREZ: All right, one thing we

5 wanted to backtrack on really quick was on the ground

6 rules it wasn't quite clear that there may be two

7 tracks here, one of them for a proposed test

8 procedure and one of them for the proposed rule for

9 standards. And we just separate those so that way

10 it's clear that the rules apply to both and probably

11 even both individually. Is there any concern with

12 that?

13 (No response.)

14 MR. RAMIREZ: And right over here, if you

15 look at these three: No negative comments, response

16 to public comments, and no adverse action and

17 support. Those are the three areas where we -- I'm

18 sorry?

19 MR. HAGERMAN: So, you just did this so we

20 wouldn't have like a real super long sentence; is

21 that right?

22 MR. RAMIREZ: Yes, if we try to really get
ASRAC Miscellaneous Refrigeration Working Group Meeting

May 4, 2015

202-347-3700 Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. 866-928-6509

Page 128

1 exact verbiage it would probably be pretty long, but

2 the intent here is just to make that those two are

3 potentially separated. They can be separated. I

4 guess if the group has to really determine how you do

5 that, but realistically test procedures and the

6 proposed rule standards are probably going to be

7 handled separately. Any questions on that?

8 (No response.)

9 MR. RAMIREZ: Do you want to take a minute

10 and look at this and we could re-thumb it and make

11 sure that we're all okay with it? And we'll send

12 these out to you all as soon as we get the final

13 approval.

14 (Working group reviews bullets.)

15 MR. RAMIREZ: Any questions on that? 

16 Let's see a show of thumbs if you're okay with those

17 changes in the ground rules as a whole.

18 (Vote taken.)

19 MR. RAMIREZ: Okay. Then with that, the

20 next thing on the agenda is discussion of scope and

21 definitions. So, we're going to scope and

22 definitions.
ASRAC Miscellaneous Refrigeration Working Group Meeting

May 4, 2015

202-347-3700 Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. 866-928-6509

Page 129

1 MR. HAGERMAN: Joe Hagerman.

2 We'll start the scope and definitions. Do

3 you want to take a re-vote on the entire ground rules

4 or did we do that?

5 MR. RAMIREZ: That's what we just did.

6 MR. HAGERMAN: All right, so I'm Joe

7 Hagerman, DOE again.

8 I've passed out a short little PowerPoint

9 on the rest of the materials today, the first part

10 being the scoping definitions. And I imagine that

11 this is just a quick refresher from the last public

12 meeting we had and of course all of the materials

13 that we've published from the Federal Register, the

14 preliminary TST and the NOPR as well.

15 So, I don't think in this short little

16 presentation here we're breaking new ground. It's

17 just a refresher course on sort of where we left it

18 last time, so I'm not going to spend too much time

19 going through this material, only to say as you know

20 I think that we're going to have a pretty thorough

21 discussion of this. We're looking for your feedback

22 on these definitions and of course this scope as
ASRAC Miscellaneous Refrigeration Working Group Meeting

May 4, 2015

202-347-3700 Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. 866-928-6509

Page 130

1 well. So, let's just get started.

2 All right, this is a good diagram of how

3 the miscellaneous products fall out in relationship

4 to the consumer refrigeration category and

5 traditional refrigerators, refrigerator/freezers and

6 freezers.

7 I've said this before. In my mind, the

8 miscellaneous refrigeration products all those

9 subcategories there are product types that have

10 common functions. And I think Charlie, at the last

11 public meeting, said they're all convenient devices

12 -- convenience devices for cooling, beverage

13 convenience devices. Is that what you called them?

14 MR. HON: Most of them are. Anything that

15 you have food storage -- perishable food storage

16 would not fall into that category.

17 MR. HAGERMAN: Okay. I can say that in my

18 mind they all have similar characteristics in terms

19 of they all have a heat pump, right, either

20 compressor-based heat pump or a solid state heat

21 pump, thermo electric device. They cool some medium,

22 whether that's air to make a cooled cabinet or water
ASRAC Miscellaneous Refrigeration Working Group Meeting

May 4, 2015

202-347-3700 Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. 866-928-6509

Page 131

1 to make ice, and they all store the work product of

2 that heat pumping in some type of bin, whether it's

3 an ice storage bin or a cabinet, right? So, in my

4 mind, logically, they kind of all look and feel the

5 same.

6 No matter, under the miscellaneous

7 refrigeration products, we have these three big

8 product types: cooled cabinets, non-compressor

9 refrigerators, hybrid products, and then icemakers. 

10 All right, just as a refresher, a consumer

11 refrigeration product is a refrigerated freezer, a

12 freezer, or miscellaneous refrigeration product. So,

13 this is how the previous definition existed. And so,

14 we propose amending the existing refrigerator,

15 refrigerated freezer, and freezer definition to have

16 a clearer structure and then we also proposed a

17 better definition for miscellaneous refrigeration,

18 which miscellaneous refrigeration is a consumer

19 refrigeration product, other than a refrigerator,

20 refrigerator freezer, or freezer, which includes

21 hybrid refrigeration products, cooled cabinets,

22 non-compressor refrigerators, and icemakers.
ASRAC Miscellaneous Refrigeration Working Group Meeting

May 4, 2015

202-347-3700 Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. 866-928-6509

Page 132

1 So, a cooled cabinet is a cabinet it has a

2 source of refrigeration requiring electric energy

3 input and is capable of maintaining compartment

4 temperatures either no lower than 39 degrees or in a

5 range that extends no lower than 37 degrees, but at

6 least as high as 60 degrees, as determined according

7 to these provisions.

8 A hybrid refrigeration product and a

9 hybrid refrigeration freezer and a hybrid freezer or

10 a hybrid non-compressor refrigerator is generally for

11 all hybrid products at least half, but not all the

12 products refrigerated volume comprises one or more

13 cellular compartments. The remaining product

14 compartments would satisfy the definition for a

15 refrigerator, refrigerated freezer, freezer, or

16 non-compressor refrigerator.

17 And then a non-compressor refrigerator is

18 a cabinet that has a source of refrigeration that

19 does not include a mechanical compressor and

20 condenser unit, requires electric energy input only,

21 and is capable of maintaining compartment

22 temperatures above 32 and below 39. And
ASRAC Miscellaneous Refrigeration Working Group Meeting

May 4, 2015

202-347-3700 Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. 866-928-6509

Page 133

1 non-compressor cooled cabinet is a cooled cabinet

2 that has a source of refrigeration that does not

3 include a compressor or a condenser unit.

4 I mean this should be pretty familiar to

5 everybody. An icemaker is a consumer product other

6 than a refrigerator, a refrigerated freezer, a

7 freezer, a hybrid refrigeration product, a

8 non-compressor refrigerator, or a cooled cabinet

9 designed to automatically produce and harvest ice,

10 but excluding any basic model that is certified under

11 that provision. Such a product may also include a

12 means for storing ice, dispensing ice, or storing and

13 dispensing ice.

14 So, some of the comments -- first, let's

15 just start. Any comments on that just to get

16 started?

17 (No response.)

18 MR. HAGERMAN: And I know that the

19 Navigant team, Troy in particular, has reviewed all

20 the comments that we got over these product

21 categories, and do you have anything else to say? 

22 Did I leave out anything?
ASRAC Miscellaneous Refrigeration Working Group Meeting

May 4, 2015

202-347-3700 Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. 866-928-6509

Page 134

1 MR. WATSON: No.

2 MR. HAGERMAN: Okay. And if there's a

3 technical question, I'm going to defer to my

4 technical team behind me. Is there any opening

5 comments that people would like to make? I just

6 going to read through here, let you see what other

7 stakeholders gave in terms of their feedback when we

8 released this notice.

9 MR. RAMIREZ: Charlie, do you have

10 something?

11 MR. HON: If you'd go back a couple

12 slides.

13 MR. HAGERMAN: Sure.

14 MR. HON: Slide Number 9. Charlie Hon,

15 True Manufacturing. Thirty-nine degrees could be

16 challenged because food code reads below 41 as a

17 refrigerant keeping fresh, perishable goods below 41

18 for safety and you're defining it as below 39. That

19 could easily be challenged. Even though my

20 engineering history tells me that 39 is better, we

21 have a legal question there.

22 MR. RAMIREZ: Any comments or questions.
ASRAC Miscellaneous Refrigeration Working Group Meeting

May 4, 2015

202-347-3700 Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. 866-928-6509

Page 135

1 MR. HAGERMAN: And let's just keep this,

2 so I'm trying to think about what we're trying to do

3 here as a group. I mean I think everybody has read

4 this ad nausaem and I just read it to everybody

5 again, so that's not helping. It seems like this

6 group as a whole has to define these product

7 categories and come up with very clear definitions

8 for these product categories, right? So, by the end

9 of the next couple days, we need to, I think, as

10 group agree to this dividing up of the world or not

11 agree to this dividing up of the world and then what

12 the logic was or what the definitions around those

13 divisions are, right? Is that pretty fair?

14 So, Charlie just brought up that

15 everywhere we have -- I think, Charlie, what you're

16 saying is everywhere -- maybe you're not trying to

17 suggest that we change it 41, just let's start with

18 the conversation. Everywhere that we have 39 it

19 potentially may need to be modified to 41; is that

20 correct?

21 MR. HON: Yes, that's correct.

22 MR. HAGERMAN: And is that your proposal
ASRAC Miscellaneous Refrigeration Working Group Meeting

May 4, 2015

202-347-3700 Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. 866-928-6509

Page 136

1 is to change the 39 to 41 throughout?

2 MR. HON: I don't see any way to avoid

3 that without putting ourselves -- because the food

4 code says below 41 and that is federal information as

5 well.

6 MR. RAMIREZ: Charlie, you had mentioned

7 earlier that these products were items that were not

8 for perishable foods?

9 MR. HAGERMAN: Charlie, could you restate

10 that with the mike on?

11 MR. HON: Charlie Hon.

12 The temperature ranges put it in a

13 category where it would sustain perishable foods, the

14 39 below 37, 32 to 39, those are all perishable foods

15 temperatures, so there's also the question of -- then

16 we get into the non-perishable, such as wine cabinets

17 and things like that where you do not have to be

18 below 41 degrees Fahrenheit because there's a lot of

19 products, chocolates, lots of products do not

20 require, for food safety reasons, to be at below 41

21 degrees Fahrenheit.

22 MS. CLEARY: Jennifer Cleary with AHAM.
ASRAC Miscellaneous Refrigeration Working Group Meeting

May 4, 2015

202-347-3700 Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. 866-928-6509

Page 137

1 I mean I hear what you're saying, Charlie,

2 but I think that that 39 degrees is well established

3 in the refrigerator test procedure, and my

4 understanding is that that's why this threshold is

5 being used here to differentiate these products from

6 refrigerators. And so, I would be very concerned

7 about changing the temperature here, which is going

8 to have implication in the refrigerator freezer

9 context that we're not discussing during this

10 rulemaking.

11 MR. HON: This is Charlie Hon.

12 But on Slide 9, it says non-compressor

13 refrigerators.

14 MR. RAMIREZ: I'm sorry, Bill.

15 MR. BROWN: This is Bill Brown with GE

16 Appliances.

17 This is the same definition as you'd have

18 for refrigerator that DOE has had in the past. The

19 same exact wording, so whether it's a

20 compressor-based refrigerator or a non-compressor

21 refrigerator this is just copying over the same

22 language we had for a compressor refrigerator.
ASRAC Miscellaneous Refrigeration Working Group Meeting

May 4, 2015

202-347-3700 Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. 866-928-6509

Page 138

1 MR. HON: Charlie Hon.

2 I have no objection to it as long as it's

3 consistent with previous DOE residential because in

4 commercial it's not quite like that.

5 MR. RAMIREZ: All right, so I'm seeing a

6 lot of bobbing heads, so are we okay, so far, with

7 what Joe has been reviewing? Any other questions? 

8 Okay, Jennifer.

9 MS. CLEARY: Jennifer Cleary.

10 What do you mean by okay? I mean I think

11 we have a lot to say about what he's gone through,

12 but I feel like you have a lot more to tell us about

13 what the comments were and personally I'd like to see

14 that before we dive in.

15 MR. HAGERMAN: Sure. No problem. So, now

16 I'm on page 11. So, the first big one is some

17 stakeholders commented that the proposed definition

18 required further clarification as to not allow the

19 use of the ANSI NSF and UL standards for food storage

20 equipment to be used as a loophole to avoid coverage. 

21 And I believe this comment actually came from you,

22 Charlie, at one of the first public meetings.
ASRAC Miscellaneous Refrigeration Working Group Meeting

May 4, 2015

202-347-3700 Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. 866-928-6509

Page 139

1 MR. HON: It did. Charlie Hon, True

2 Manufacturing.

3 Because the NSF standards are actually

4 basically commercial in their nature and there was an

5 exemption in the original proposal which would allow

6 if it was NSF listed not to be under this standard,

7 which our company, as a whole, I think is

8 inappropriate.

9 MR. HAGERMAN: So, I guess that would

10 relate to this previous slide here? You'd take issue

11 with "but excluding any basic model that is certified

12 under NSF"? Okay.

13 The second comment was one stakeholder

14 noted that the range of products covered by this rule

15 are not one type of consumer products. They're

16 designed and marketed for very different purposes. 

17 So, I guess that's from the range of maintaining wine

18 temperature to the icemakers, right? The stakeholder

19 noted those are sort of different.

20 A stakeholder commented that 50 percent of

21 the seller compartment threshold to differentiate

22 hybrid products from other consumer refrigeration
ASRAC Miscellaneous Refrigeration Working Group Meeting

May 4, 2015

202-347-3700 Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. 866-928-6509

Page 140

1 products is an arbitrary cutoff. Feel free to

2 comment on these, people, you know if you so feel

3 compelled. All right.

4 Many stakeholders commented to oppose

5 DOE's grouping of the icemakers with the other MREF

6 products. They stated that icemakers serve a

7 different consumer need and are sufficiently

8 different in their operation from the other product

9 categories that grouping them is not appropriate.

10 One stakeholder pointed out that the

11 product definitions in the standard as proposed only

12 covers electric usage, whereas many of these

13 products, especially, icemakers also use a large

14 volume of water.

15 A commenter objected to using this

16 rulemaking to amend definitions for residential

17 refrigerators and freezers because those amendments

18 would effectively amend coverage and standards for

19 certain products.

20 Those were basically the big categories of

21 comments that we received. Troy, do you have

22 anything else to add?
ASRAC Miscellaneous Refrigeration Working Group Meeting

May 4, 2015

202-347-3700 Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. 866-928-6509

Page 141

1 (No response.)

2 MR. HAGERMAN: So the key issues here do

3 the definitions of each product category need to be

4 amended in any way? How would the definitions for

5 these products be amended to best differentiate

6 between consumer products and commercial equipment? 

7 Is the 72 degree Fahrenheit ambient temperature

8 appropriate for determining the compartment

9 temperatures when the products are used outside and

10 what not, inside? Are any clarifications needed to

11 better differentiate between a non-icemaker product

12 category?

13 MR. RAMIREZ: Charlie?

14 MR. HON: Charlie Hon, True Manufacturing.

15 There's also some items that have to be

16 discussed here because if it's a consumer product

17 it's under the Consumer Product Commission and if

18 it's commercial it is not, and as such, labeling

19 requirements may be different.

20 Quite often, the certifications under

21 standards may be different, especially, UL and NSF

22 types certification, so there's nuances of difference
ASRAC Miscellaneous Refrigeration Working Group Meeting

May 4, 2015

202-347-3700 Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. 866-928-6509

Page 142

1 how you classify these products, but if they're

2 classified as residential there's additional

3 governmental regulation involved, not just the DOE.

4 MR. HAGERMAN: Charlie, that's an

5 excellent point. And it's one of the points that I

6 brought up with General Counsel's Office when the

7 thermo electric discussion came up. If this group

8 decided that thermo electrics would be covered by

9 this rule, but then not set a standard for it or

10 recommend to DOE that we don't set a standard for it,

11 it would still fall under the jurisdiction of the

12 FTC, who may require them to put labels on their

13 products to tell consumers how much energy those

14 products use, right, so there are some consumer

15 benefits in that.

16 MR. RAMIREZ: So, let me ask the group on

17 that first question, do the definition of each

18 product category need to be amended in any way?

19 MR. HAGERMAN: Could we do this, Javier? 

20 Could I offer this up maybe as an ice breaker? That

21 we take a temperature check with this nice diagram up

22 on the screen with how comfortable people feel about
ASRAC Miscellaneous Refrigeration Working Group Meeting

May 4, 2015

202-347-3700 Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. 866-928-6509

Page 143

1 just the overall divisions, right, yes, no? We're

2 not taking a vote for anything. We're just trying to

3 take a temperature check, right? And then, too,

4 after we do that we go through and say, all right,

5 how comfortable with the definition with cool

6 cabinets are you, up/down temperature check, right?

7 There seems to be a lack of conversation

8 here and I think this is a big area to converse on.

9 MR. RAMIREZ: What do you all think as far

10 as the diagram goes? Does the diagram make sense to

11 you all? No? Bill, what doesn't make sense about

12 the diagram?

13 MR. BROWN: Bill Brown with GE.

14 The inclusion of icemakers with the rest

15 of the miscellaneous refrigeration products that is a

16 distinctly different type of appliance than the other

17 three that are listed, the other three perform a

18 similar function as a refrigerator, refrigerator

19 freezer, or freezers. Icemaker is a completely

20 different function, has completely different test

21 procedure. When DOE refers to it in its NOPR it's

22 always you know refrigeration products and icemakers,
ASRAC Miscellaneous Refrigeration Working Group Meeting

May 4, 2015

202-347-3700 Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. 866-928-6509

Page 144

1 so DOE even notes that it is a different type of

2 product in its own literature.

3 So, that's one statement I would have is

4 that icemakers are completely different and should

5 not be included in the miscellaneous refrigeration

6 products. They may go under their own rulemaking,

7 but to include them with those other three we do

8 agree with that.

9 MR. RAMIREZ: Jennifer and then Dick.

10 MS. CLEARY: Jennifer Cleary with AHAM.

11 I agree with what Bill said. I mean you

12 know icemakers make something ice. The other

13 products store things. They're totally different

14 functions, so while cooling is involved you know I

15 mean they're different. And so, I think -- that's

16 why I agree with Bill.

17 Also, you know I don't know necessarily if

18 this is important to this rulemaking or not, but I'm

19 still considering in my own mind whether cooled

20 cabinets and hybrid products necessarily fall under

21 like a -- need to be under a different definition

22 than refrigerator, refrigerator freezers or freezers
ASRAC Miscellaneous Refrigeration Working Group Meeting

May 4, 2015

202-347-3700 Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. 866-928-6509

Page 145

1 because I thought I remembered that the reason they

2 were being considered you know for a new definition

3 was because there's a question about the threshold --

4 the statutory threshold for setting standards and for

5 coverage and that you know those two types of

6 products could either be included under a new

7 definition or under the existing definition of

8 refrigerator in the statute, and so I just know if

9 that will have implications.

10 I don't think that's important to discuss

11 today, but the icemaker point I think is critical.

12 MR. RAMIREZ: Right. Dick, Mary, Tim, and

13 then Stephen.

14 MR. TOPPING: Dick Topping, Sub-Zero.

15 Joe, I guess I was under the impression

16 that you might go through this presentation first you

17 know as you've done and then we could go back and

18 focus on individual pages because I think discussion

19 on this is probably at least the rest of today and

20 maybe today and tomorrow, so maybe we could just kind

21 of go through it, tee it up, and then go back and

22 deal with each particular you know page and bring up
ASRAC Miscellaneous Refrigeration Working Group Meeting

May 4, 2015

202-347-3700 Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. 866-928-6509

Page 146

1 the issues that we all might have.

2 MR. RAMIREZ: How does that work as far as

3 flow for you, Joe?

4 MR. HAGERMAN: Generally, that works okay. 

5 I mean I think that the next big area I was going to

6 get through is product classes, right, I was going to

7 defer to Troy to go through those because it's a

8 little bit more technical in nature. And then I was

9 going to stop at the test procedures. I was going to

10 do coverage and the definitions and scope before we

11 went to test procedures, so it's only four or five

12 more slides.

13 MR. RAMIREZ: For product classes?

14 MR. HAGERMAN: Yes. I don't think those

15 are going to be new to you. I think it's going to be

16 more of what you already know.

17 MR. RAMIREZ: All right, so then do we

18 want to get through these other comments and then

19 we'll go onto product classes? All right, let me get

20 Mary, Tim, and Stephen.

21 MS. DANE: This is Mary from Traulsen.

22 Building on kind of what Jennifer said, we
ASRAC Miscellaneous Refrigeration Working Group Meeting

May 4, 2015

202-347-3700 Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. 866-928-6509

Page 147

1 question those products, the cooled cabinets and the

2 hybrid products being under the miscellaneous

3 refrigeration too. The other thing is we've had

4 longstanding questions about the definition of hybrid

5 refrigerators and you know hybrid products and how

6 test procedures work for those.

7 So, we're probably want to discuss further

8 how those things come up with because the assumption

9 of how a hybrid refrigerator is defined in here is

10 not really how the test procedure needs to be done,

11 so that was our comment right now.

12 MR. RAMIREZ: Okay, let me get Tim and

13 Stephen.

14 MR. BALLO: This is Jim with Earth

15 Justice.

16 I guess my objection is a little bit

17 different. I think the non-compressor refrigerators

18 are essentially refrigerators, refrigerator freezers

19 or freezers. They operate with a different

20 technology, but provide no -- they're not really a

21 unique product in the eyes of I think most consumers,

22 so those I think would belong over in the left
ASRAC Miscellaneous Refrigeration Working Group Meeting

May 4, 2015

202-347-3700 Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. 866-928-6509

Page 148

1 category there.

2 MR. RAMIREZ: Stephen?

3 MR. SCHAEFER: Steve Schaefer, Hoshizaki

4 America.

5 I also agree with Jennifer in that

6 icemakers are -- you know they do make a product and

7 we're going to have to see exactly how repeatable the

8 test standard is going to be for that because once

9 you get -- the reason why commercial stops at around

10 50 is because trying to get the repeatability of a

11 very small batch of ice. If you lose one cube, then

12 you might not be able to actually sustain three

13 cycles simultaneously like that. So, I'm really

14 interested to see the test procedure for that and it

15 probably should be in its own special category.

16 MR. RAMIREZ: So, no other comments, let's

17 go onto the product classes.

18 MR. WATSON: This is Troy Watson from

19 Navigant.

20 And like Joe said, a lot of this

21 information you all have probably seen before. It

22 kind of just recaps what we had in the preliminary
ASRAC Miscellaneous Refrigeration Working Group Meeting

May 4, 2015

202-347-3700 Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. 866-928-6509

Page 149

1 analysis and the test procedure NOPR. And product

2 classes, specifically, are mostly from the

3 preliminary analysis.

4 (Slide.)

5 MR. WATSON: So, this slide shows the

6 product classes DOE considered for the preliminary

7 analysis. You could see for cooled cabinets

8 everything was lumped together in a single product

9 class, so that includes thermo electrics, vapor

10 compression units, all different sizes of products

11 too.

12 (Slide.)

13 MR. WATSON: For non-compressor

14 refrigerators, DOE also considered a single product

15 class there. For the hybrid products, DOE considered

16 product classes that were analogous to the existing

17 product classes for refrigerators, refrigerator

18 freezers, and freezers; however, DOE was only aware

19 of products in 4 of those 40 product classes. So,

20 the analysis looked at those four specifically.

21 And then for icemakers, DOE considered

22 uncooled storage, cooled storage, and portable
ASRAC Miscellaneous Refrigeration Working Group Meeting

May 4, 2015

202-347-3700 Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. 866-928-6509

Page 150

1 icemakers, and DOE also proposed different

2 definitions for those product classes which are right

3 here.

4 (Slide.)

5 MR. WATSON: So, portable wouldn't require

6 a connection to a household water supply and instead

7 would use onboard water reservoirs to supply the

8 water for ice making. Uncooled storage icemakers

9 they would not maintain bin temperatures below 32

10 degrees Fahrenheit. And then the cooled storage

11 icemakers they would have refrigerator bins below 32

12 degrees.

13 And just to go back to the hybrid

14 products, these are the four classes DOE identified. 

15 So, these are built-in standard size hybrid auto

16 refrigerators with automatic defrost, built-in

17 standard hybrid freezers with automatic defrost, and

18 an automatic icemaker, and compact hybrid auto

19 refrigerators with manual defrost and compact hybrid

20 auto refrigerators with automatic defrost.

21 So, that's what DOE has done already. We

22 received comments on these product classes. So, the
ASRAC Miscellaneous Refrigeration Working Group Meeting

May 4, 2015

202-347-3700 Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. 866-928-6509

Page 151

1 comments were pretty mixed. Some stakeholders

2 expressed agreement with DOE's definitions and

3 proposed product classes for these classes. Some

4 stakeholders commented that the cooled cabinets would

5 require multiple product classes. And some of the

6 suggestions were separating out thermo electric

7 cooled cabinets or separating cooled cabinets by

8 cabinet volume into standard and compact and also by

9 built-in or freestanding similar to the splits for

10 refrigerators and refrigerator freezers.

11 DOE also received comments that icemakers

12 should further be split into additional product

13 classes based on the type of ice generated, and one

14 of the specific concerns was for products that

15 generate clear ice.

16 There were also some concerns about DOE's

17 mapping of the hybrid product classes onto the

18 existing refrigerator, refrigerator freezer, and

19 freezer product classes. And the stakeholders

20 commented that even though DOE defined the 40 product

21 classes there's very few of these products actually

22 available on the market.
ASRAC Miscellaneous Refrigeration Working Group Meeting

May 4, 2015

202-347-3700 Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. 866-928-6509

Page 152

1 And stakeholders also noted that it might

2 be better to divide the hybrids into product classes

3 based on the type cellar compartment incorporated,

4 specifically, referring to the type of compartment

5 door, whether it's clear or solid and the percentage

6 of total volume that's dedicated to that cellar

7 compartment.

8 So, that's what been done already and the

9 general feedback. And we have a similar set of key

10 issues here. Mainly, is there any need for DOE to

11 adjust the product classes that have been considered

12 up to this point? If so, if there's a need to

13 establish new product classes, what is the basis for

14 that? What's the unique feature or consumer utility

15 associated with that product class that then effects

16 the energy consumption for those products?

17 DOE would then need to define these

18 product classes in a clear way to differentiate the

19 products. And one thing to note here is that any

20 major revisions to the product classes would then

21 affect DOE's analysis to date downstream. So, if the

22 products are split out, then the preliminary analysis
ASRAC Miscellaneous Refrigeration Working Group Meeting

May 4, 2015

202-347-3700 Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. 866-928-6509

Page 153

1 numbers would have to be adjusted to account for that

2 new split.

3 MR. RAMIREZ: Any questions? Bill?

4 MR. BROWN: Bill Brown, GE Appliances.

5 Slide 16 talking about the product

6 categories the product category of non-compressor

7 refrigerators it says "The single product class" is

8 this an existing product class or a new one?

9 MR. WATSON: Troy Watson from Navigant.

10 These products currently aren't covered,

11 so this isn't existing. This is just what DOE

12 considered in its preliminary analysis, so it's just

13 one product class for all of the products that would

14 fall under the proposed non-compressor refrigerator

15 definition.

16 MR. BROWN: Bill Brown with GE again.

17 So, would anticipate this falling into an

18 existing category?

19 MR. WATSON: I'm not sure I understand.

20 MR. BROWN: Well, it's a refrigerator, so

21 would you put this in the refrigerator category or

22 would you put it into a new category that you create
ASRAC Miscellaneous Refrigeration Working Group Meeting

May 4, 2015

202-347-3700 Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. 866-928-6509

Page 154

1 called non-compressor refrigerator?

2 MR. WATSON: So, as proposed, it would be

3 a new category separate from the existing

4 refrigerators category.

5 MR. BROWN: It doesn't read like DOE's

6 comments are putting this in a brand new category. I

7 mean it seems to lump this non-compressor

8 refrigerator in with other types of products that

9 form the same function.

10 MR. WATSON: So, going back to the slide

11 that Joe spoke to, these are the non-compressor

12 refrigerators that would fall under the new

13 miscellaneous refrigeration products category.

14 MR. BROWN: Certainly, if you look at the

15 definition of the non-compressor refrigerator, it

16 performs the exact same function as a refrigerator. 

17 So, we're just asking if it falls under the same

18 product class as a conventional refrigerator, a

19 compression refrigerator.

20 MR. WATSON: So, based on the preliminary

21 analysis, it wouldn't, but that's up for discussion

22 with the working group.
ASRAC Miscellaneous Refrigeration Working Group Meeting

May 4, 2015

202-347-3700 Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. 866-928-6509

Page 155

1 MR. RAMIREZ: Any other questions or

2 comments for Troy?

3 MS. CLEARY: This is Jen Cleary with AHAM.

4 I wondered if it might be helpful, and I

5 don't mean to put you on the spot, but if DOE counsel

6 could maybe remind of why it's being done that way

7 because I think it has to do with the EPCA definition

8 of refrigerators, right, and that the non-compressor

9 refrigerators don't fit into that. So, it might just

10 be helpful for us to all have the background as to

11 why you're proposing to do this kind of split.

12 MS. BUTLER: You know I'm going to talk to

13 Dan Cohen about this for the break just to make sure

14 I get it clear for everyone why it's broken out that

15 way, and then I'll come back to you with an answer on

16 that.

17 MS. HOFFMAN: That's Sarah Butler.

18 MR. RAMIREZ: What other questions or

19 comments? Charlie?

20 MR. HON: On Slide 19, it says -- second

21 bullet point -- "others commented that cooled

22 cabinets should be separated into standard/compact
ASRAC Miscellaneous Refrigeration Working Group Meeting

May 4, 2015

202-347-3700 Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. 866-928-6509

Page 156

1 built-in/freestanding product classes." I do not

2 understand the need for separation between built-in

3 and freestanding. If they're remote or something

4 else that's a different piece, but they're still

5 self-contained refrigeration in most categories.

6 MS. CLEARY: This is Jennifer Cleary with

7 AHAM.

8 That was our comment, so I can hopefully,

9 with the assistance of some of my colleagues, explain

10 that a little bit better; but those mirror the

11 product classes for residential refrigeration. Not

12 all of them, but there are -- that division between

13 both freestanding and built-in and compact and

14 full-size exists in those 40 some odd product

15 classes. And in our view, the same reasoning for why

16 those were identified apply to these products as

17 well, and so it made sense to us to marry those.

18 Whether it's built-in or freestanding and

19 the standard or compact can impact the energy and

20 also provide consumer utility, and so that was why we

21 made this proposal. And I'm sure others can expand

22 with more technical details. 
ASRAC Miscellaneous Refrigeration Working Group Meeting

May 4, 2015

202-347-3700 Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. 866-928-6509

Page 157

1 MR. RAMIREZ: Well, let me ask the group

2 this as far as looking at what we're trying to do

3 her; is there any low-hanging fruit? Is there

4 anything that you're looking at this and saying, yes,

5 that makes sense, areas of agreement? Jennifer?

6 MS. CLEARY: Jennifer Cleary.

7 I feel like the reason we're getting a lot

8 of silence is because this is really complicated and

9 we're kind of talking about all these products in one

10 bucket right now, which, by the way, is part of the

11 problem with the proposed rule. So, I think it might

12 be more helpful to like pick one. You know whether

13 it's hybrids or cooled cabinets or whatever and start

14 talking about that; otherwise, I'm finding myself at

15 a loss of where to start. There's just too much to

16 say. We could probably talk for a whole day about

17 just one.

18 MR. RAMIREZ: Does that make sense? Yes? 

19 All right, so of these, still the same question,

20 which one looks like we might be able to reach

21 agreement on some or most of the aspects of it

22 relatively easy between the four of cooled cabinets,
ASRAC Miscellaneous Refrigeration Working Group Meeting

May 4, 2015

202-347-3700 Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. 866-928-6509

Page 158

1 non-compressor refrigerators, hybrids, or icemakers? 

2 And I'll eliminate icemakers, at least initially,

3 right, because it sounds like we need some detailed

4 discussion on that one. Dick?

5 MR. TOPPING: Dick Topping, Sub-Zero.

6 Well, if we're going to start in the

7 nitty-gritty, we probably should go back to page 5

8 because I think there's some comments on page 5, not

9 to take them in any particular order I think there's

10 some concern with some of the definitional changes

11 that DOE has proposed; particularly, the idea of

12 defining a product based on its capability of

13 maintaining a compartment temperature at 72 degrees

14 ambient. This is a totally new concept and something

15 that I know several of us here have reservations

16 about.

17 MR. HAGERMAN: And you just explain that a

18 little bit?

19 MR. TOPPING: Sure. Can I put you on the

20 spot? Really Bill Brown has been involved in this in

21 the IEC for years, has done an incredible job. He's

22 kind of the resource that many of us rely on in terms
ASRAC Miscellaneous Refrigeration Working Group Meeting

May 4, 2015

202-347-3700 Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. 866-928-6509

Page 159

1 of temperatures, the impact of harmonization across

2 the world in terms of refrigeration. There's been a

3 lot of progress made over the past you know many

4 years, and there's some concern that some of the

5 things here may be counterproductive to that process,

6 so with that introduction.

7 MR. BROWN: Bill Brown with GE.

8 So, let's talk about the 72-degree

9 ambient. For many years, I've been on the IEC

10 Committee that has harmonized or sought to harmonize

11 the global test procedure for refrigeration test

12 products. And I hate to go back too much, but the

13 IEC test procedure before was at a 77-degree ambient,

14 had loaded cabinets, and was completely different

15 than what we have in the U.S. and Australia and some

16 other places.

17 We were able to harmonize our test

18 procedure with IEC, so now the rest of the world now

19 will be testing at a 90-degree ambient. And also,

20 some places can choose to test at a 60-degree

21 ambient, and that's for places with very low ambient

22 in their country or with heaters that have to warm up
ASRAC Miscellaneous Refrigeration Working Group Meeting

May 4, 2015

202-347-3700 Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. 866-928-6509

Page 160

1 the product when it gets down too low.

2 What we're doing here is adding yet

3 another ambient, another feature that would make our

4 test unique from the rest of the world. What this

5 also does for test labs where they're not really sure

6 what type of product they have or what certain

7 compartments can get to they have to run an

8 additional test. They'd have to run a test at 72

9 degrees to see if a compartment or sub-compartment or

10 pan or whatever got to a certain temperature to be

11 able to call it a hybrid product and then run the

12 test at the 90-degree energy test.

13 So, this is adding unnecessary burden to

14 our product. You've got the situation where a

15 product could reach a temperature at 72 degrees, but

16 then not reach it at 90 degrees. So then, you would

17 not be able to test that product even though you're

18 saying it's a covered product.

19 And DOE had covered this situation

20 somewhat in the 2014 DOE rulemaking where it

21 addressed -- I guess the term was "near freezer" or

22 even "near refrigerators" where if you tested a
ASRAC Miscellaneous Refrigeration Working Group Meeting

May 4, 2015

202-347-3700 Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. 866-928-6509

Page 161

1 product at 90 degrees and it did not get to the zero

2 degree for a freezer then you could not rate that

3 product. And now you're giving an exception here of

4 testing it at 72 it meets the temperature, but at 90

5 it's a covered product, so it seems to be going

6 against what DOE had just ruled in the 2014

7 rulemaking.

8 MR. WATSON: If I could just jump in

9 there. This is Troy Watson from Navigant.

10 Under the proposed test procedure, DOE

11 would bring back the extrapolation approach, where if

12 a product doesn't meet compartment temperatures at

13 the 90-degree ambient you would extrapolate back to

14 the standardized compartment temperature to give that

15 product a rating if it can maintain the temperature

16 at 72, but not at the 90 degrees.

17 MR. BROWN: Yes, this is Bill Brown with

18 GE again.

19 I mean the problem I see with that

20 approach, even when it was in the Appendix A-1, was

21 you're going to be rating it at an energy that it can

22 never possibly use, so that's the issue that I have
ASRAC Miscellaneous Refrigeration Working Group Meeting

May 4, 2015

202-347-3700 Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. 866-928-6509

Page 162

1 with extrapolating test data. And one of the reasons

2 that, as an industry, that we prefer the 90 degrees

3 as it does add some robustness to the product.

4 You could certainly have a product that

5 could keep temperature at 72 degrees with doors

6 closed, but once you actually started using the

7 product they could never maintain the ambient. So,

8 that is one thing that you're covering with a

9 90-degree test being able to maintain temperatures at

10 90 degrees that you lose if you just look at a

11 72-degree ambient.

12 MS. CLEARY: Jennifer Cleary with AHAM.

13 I think you know another point here is

14 that it seems like the 72 and doing this test you

15 know to determine what type of product it is is aimed

16 at getting to some kind of consumer

17 representativeness, but it doesn't do that. Yes, 72

18 might be a representative temperature for a consumer

19 home, but testing a product with no load and no door

20 openings in a 72-ambient conditioned room does not

21 represent how that product would actually perform in

22 a consumer's home at 72 degrees.
ASRAC Miscellaneous Refrigeration Working Group Meeting

May 4, 2015

202-347-3700 Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. 866-928-6509

Page 163

1 That's the whole reason why the 90-degree

2 ambient temperature exist, to try and replicate that

3 you know actual consumer use without adding the test

4 variability that comes with opening the doors and

5 adding a food load. And so, really this 72 degrees,

6 in our view, is meaningless. This isn't really

7 telling us anything about where the product should be

8 classified. All it's doing is adding test burden in

9 our view.

10 MR. HAGERMAN: Joe Hagerman.

11 Just a quick question just to follow up on

12 that, so do you feel like the loads in these devices

13 and the door openings in these devices are identical

14 to the regular refrigerator?

15 MS. CLEARY: No. And I think that when we

16 get to usage factors I mean that's a whole -- several

17 hours probably discussion that we can have as well,

18 and I think that's a piece we need to focus on too.

19 MR. HAGERMAN: But there's two parts in

20 that. There's usage factors, and then you brought up

21 the ambient temperatures too, so there's two factors

22 in usage ambient factor.
ASRAC Miscellaneous Refrigeration Working Group Meeting

May 4, 2015

202-347-3700 Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. 866-928-6509

Page 164

1 MS. CLEARY: Right, but they're intimately

2 tied together.

3 MR. HAGERMAN: Okay.

4 MR. RAMIREZ: So, it's my understanding

5 that we need to figure out a number between 72 and

6 90; is that accurate? How do we get there? The only

7 reason I say that is because Bill you had mentioned

8 the IEC was at 77?

9 MR. BROWN: This is Bill Brown at GE.

10 This was the old test, the ISO test before

11 IEC. The ISO test was at 77 with a full freezer load

12 of packages, quite a bit different test. You're not

13 looking at the same things. We've got brass wheats

14 in our tests that look at air temperatures and you're

15 looking at the average compartment temperature. This

16 77-degree test has packages that simulate meat and

17 you're looking at the warmest possible packaging in

18 the freezer, so that 77-degree test that's gone. 

19 That doesn't exist any more anywhere on the planet. 

20 Everyone's going to be using the 90-degree test that

21 we've got for IEC.

22 So, we're not looking at a temperature
ASRAC Miscellaneous Refrigeration Working Group Meeting

May 4, 2015

202-347-3700 Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. 866-928-6509

Page 165

1 between 72 and 90. We're saying it should be 90

2 degrees.

3 MR. HAGERMAN: This is Joe Hagerman at

4 DOE.

5 Just real quick, we're just saying -- a

6 little perspective here. We're just saying that in

7 the definition we're saying that the product is

8 capable of maintaining a compartment temperature of

9 72 degrees, right? And then the further definitions,

10 we give more specificity to the temperatures of the

11 compartments.

12 MR. BROWN: So, this is Bill with GE

13 again.

14 A third party that is testing this product

15 that's never seen it before would have to run a test

16 at 72 degrees first, then run an energy test later. 

17 So, I mean that certainly would increase the test

18 burden.

19 MR. RAMIREZ: Dick?

20 MR. TOPPING: Dick Topping, Sub-Zero.

21 I mean maybe it's obvious. I think the

22 important thing to realize is that no one is
ASRAC Miscellaneous Refrigeration Working Group Meeting

May 4, 2015

202-347-3700 Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. 866-928-6509

Page 166

1 suggesting that the 90-degree test is based on the

2 fact that people keep their houses at 90 degrees. 

3 The issue of the 90-degree test -- and this test has,

4 what, 50, 60, 70 years of background of continual

5 evaluating and vetting, but the issue is by testing

6 at 90 degrees you ensure that the product has

7 adequate capacity to perform well in all sorts of

8 situations that people might encounter in the field.

9 And so, it's a bit of an acid test, but

10 it's there for a reason and that's to ensure that the

11 consumers are satisfied with the product. Any time

12 you start to consider changes to that test, you know

13 there may be reasons as time goes on, but they just

14 need to be done carefully.

15 I mean one of the issues with this whole

16 miscellaneous refrigeration rulemaking is so much new

17 is being proposed -- you know new products, new test

18 procedures. And I think there is a concern to rashly

19 do some of these things without you know adequate

20 data, testing, analysis has the potential of causing

21 problems in the long term with consumer products and

22 the value to consumer products as they perform well,
ASRAC Miscellaneous Refrigeration Working Group Meeting

May 4, 2015

202-347-3700 Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. 866-928-6509

Page 167

1 admirably for all users over a long period of time.

2 And so you know that, in general, is an

3 issue. The 90-degree test you know has been kind of

4 the bedrock or the bellwether of refrigeration

5 testing for a long time. I think there's a concern

6 about changing without adequate thought or

7 justification.

8 MS. HOFFMAN: Jennifer?

9 MS. CLEARY: Jennifer Cleary.

10 We're also talking about two different

11 things, right? There's one proposal we'll talk about

12 later in the test procedure section about you know

13 different products being tested at either 90 or 72,

14 and that's not what we're talking about here. Here

15 we're talking about you know changing the definition

16 for refrigerator, refrigerator freezer, and freezer

17 to indicate that you know this added clarification

18 that products capable of maintaining compartment

19 temperatures in a 72-degree ambient, but they're not

20 -- even though they're two different issues, they're

21 still connected because the same reasoning applies.

22 And let's also not forget that this
ASRAC Miscellaneous Refrigeration Working Group Meeting

May 4, 2015

202-347-3700 Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. 866-928-6509

Page 168

1 rulemaking isn't a rulemaking about refrigerators,

2 refrigerator freezers, and freezers. This is a

3 rulemaking about miscellaneous refrigeration

4 products. And what we're proposing to do here is

5 change a different definition, which could have

6 implications and likely will have implications if

7 this proceeds for products that already have a

8 standard and already have product class

9 determinations. This could change those because this

10 is not consistent with current practice.

11 You know it could add a test, and it's at

12 a temperature that is completely arbitrary. So, you

13 know I think we need to think very hard about whether

14 we -- why this would be done? What would it really

15 accomplish? And in our view, it should be done at

16 all. It wouldn't accomplish anything, except add

17 test burden and confusion.

18 MR. HAGERMAN: This is Joe Hagerman, DOE.

19 So, if this number goes up or down or just

20 up, let's say -- I'm just logically trying to think

21 through this -- this would cause some refrigerators

22 to be cooled cabinets, right?
ASRAC Miscellaneous Refrigeration Working Group Meeting

May 4, 2015

202-347-3700 Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. 866-928-6509

Page 169

1 MR. BROWN: No. This is Bill Brown with

2 GE.

3 MR. HAGERMAN: What's the affect of this

4 temperature going up or down?

5 MR. BROWN: Currently, today this number

6 is 90 degrees.

7 MR. HAGERMAN: So, if tomorrow this number

8 is 72?

9 MR. BROWN: Then you'll have the -- one

10 product class at 72 degrees, but you have to test --

11 it won't reach that product class at 90 degrees.

12 MR. HAGERMAN: So, that means some

13 refrigerators become cooled cabinets?

14 MR. BROWN: That's correct.

15 MR. HAGERMAN: Okay. And you said

16 something -- this is Joe Hagerman. One more

17 question, pardon my ignorance here. So, you said

18 when you do tests for energy tests you don't also

19 measure the cabinet temperatures? You said a second

20 ago that we'd have to measure the cabinet -- we'd

21 have to do a test to measure the cabinet temperatures

22 to see if we were able to achieve 72 ambient and then
ASRAC Miscellaneous Refrigeration Working Group Meeting

May 4, 2015

202-347-3700 Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. 866-928-6509

Page 170

1 we'd have to run an energy test. You treat it as two

2 different tests? I'm just wondering.

3 MR. BROWN: It's basically -- this is Bill

4 Brown with GE -- the same test at two different

5 ambient is what I was referring to.

6 MR. HAGERMAN: Okay. All right.

7 MR. BROWN: So yes, it would be measuring

8 the compartment temperatures at 72 degrees,

9 determining what I am or whether I'm covered or how

10 I'm covered and then do the same compartment

11 temperatures at 90 degrees.

12 MR. HAGERMAN: Because this extrapolation

13 is not valid?

14 MR. BROWN: I think that's a different

15 issue.

16 MR. HAGERMAN: It's a different issue.

17 MS. HOFFMAN: This is Eileen Hoffman.

18 Can you tell us how DOE came up with the

19 72 figure?

20 MR. HAGERMAN: So, that I'm not too sure

21 on. I heard Jennifer say it was arbitrary. And to

22 me, I guess, without knowing the history there I
ASRAC Miscellaneous Refrigeration Working Group Meeting

May 4, 2015

202-347-3700 Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. 866-928-6509

Page 171

1 would agree with her it's arbitrary, although it does

2 look and feel a lot like my temperature at my house. 

3 I can get back to you on that.

4 MS. HOFFMAN: Okay.

5 MR. HAGERMAN: I'm sure Ashley Armstrong

6 has a reason. Troy, do you have a --

7 MR. WATSON: Yes, this is Troy Watson from

8 Navigant.

9 It's intended to represent typical indoor

10 conditions.

11 MR. RAMIREZ: In order to look at

12 miscellaneous refrigeration, why would the definition

13 for refrigerator and refrigerator freezer and freezer

14 have to change?

15 MR. WATSON: Yes, so with the proposed

16 definitions for cooled cabinets and the other product

17 types, as proposed, they include this clarification. 

18 And currently, it's not included on the definitions

19 for refrigerators, refrigerator freezers, and

20 freezers.

21 So, they need to be consistent with each

22 other because there's going to be a cutoff point
ASRAC Miscellaneous Refrigeration Working Group Meeting

May 4, 2015

202-347-3700 Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. 866-928-6509

Page 172

1 between all of those different product categories, so

2 we need to consider them all on the same basis so you

3 don't have any overlap.

4 MR. BALLO: This is Tim with Earth

5 Justice.

6 But then couldn't you accomplish the same

7 thing by using 90 as the ambient temperature for

8 cooled cabinets as well?

9 MR. WATSON: I believe so. I guess that's

10 open for discuss. If you all feel that's appropriate

11 it's something DOE would definitely consider.

12 MR. HAGERMAN: Joe Hagerman, DOE.

13 I think it ultimately comes back to some

14 of the previous discussion, right? I mean it's part

15 of the calculation in terms of the usage factor. 

16 It's not a single variable equation, I guess, is the

17 one we're looking at.

18 MR. WATSON: This is Troy Watson again.

19 I guess one potential concern with going

20 to the 90 degrees for determining compartment

21 temperatures is that for certain products in DOE's

22 limited testing -- I think it was typically the
ASRAC Miscellaneous Refrigeration Working Group Meeting

May 4, 2015

202-347-3700 Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. 866-928-6509

Page 173

1 thermo electric products -- those weren't able to

2 achieve typical compartment temperatures in the

3 90-degree ambient. Those were I think pretty

4 elevated compared to where the typical set points

5 would fall in a 72-degree ambient. So, that's one

6 potential concern there.

7 MS. HOFFMAN: Tim?

8 MR. BALLO: Yes. It sounds like we're

9 talking about a product that does not actually meet

10 any reasonable definition of a refrigerator and

11 trying to build a definition in a way that would make

12 it meet a definition of a refrigerator, which maybe

13 is not the best way of getting at the problem of

14 products calling themselves refrigerators when they

15 don't meet a reasonable definition for what a

16 refrigerator is. So, is there a way, other than

17 manipulating the definitions, that we can address the

18 problem of products that don't provide the

19 performance of a refrigerator?

20 MS. CLEARY: This is Jen Cleary.

21 We totally agree with you.

22 MR. RAMIREZ: So, you're talking about a
ASRAC Miscellaneous Refrigeration Working Group Meeting

May 4, 2015

202-347-3700 Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. 866-928-6509

Page 174

1 different class?

2 MR. BALLO: It may be a different class. 

3 It may be that this is an issue for FTC or another

4 agency that regulates in this sphere to pick up. I'm

5 just leery of creating definitions that don't reflect

6 what products actually do in the field just to solve

7 a problem that could maybe be solved another way.

8 MR. RAMIREZ: Jennifer.

9 MS. CLEARY: Jen Cleary.

10 Yes, I agree. I think that regardless of

11 technology these products should be tested the same

12 way, and we shouldn't be -- your words were perfect,

13 manipulating the test procedure to try and help some

14 out who can't meet the temperatures for safe storage

15 for food, for example. And particularly, when you

16 consider the fact that the 72 degrees when -- you

17 know when there's no food load or door openings does

18 not represent a temperature in a consumer's home. 

19 Ninety does that. These products are not going to

20 perform for consumers the way that consumers are

21 expecting them to. So, I agree.

22 MS. MAUER: Joanna Mauer.
ASRAC Miscellaneous Refrigeration Working Group Meeting

May 4, 2015

202-347-3700 Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. 866-928-6509

Page 175

1 I think we are also concerned about the

2 proposal to test vapor compression in thermo electric

3 cooled cabinets under different ambient temperatures. 

4 For cooled cabinets I think in particular -- you know

5 we had suggested 72 degrees in our comments partly

6 because -- you know I understand the rationale for

7 conventional refrigerators why the 90 degrees was

8 developed, but it does seem to do a fairly good job

9 of representing field energy use while having a test

10 procedure that doesn't involve door openings and food

11 loadings.

12 But it doesn't seem like that logic

13 translates very well to cooled cabinets, at least

14 DOE's preliminary analysis concluded that if you test

15 at 90 degrees actual field energy consumption may be

16 just over half and so you're kind of testing at 90

17 degrees, in effect, applying an adjustment factor,

18 but that's actually too high for these products.

19 So then, we're applying a subsequent

20 adjustment factor to back down to something that may

21 better represent you know the consumption in the

22 field. So, you know it seems like we know that
ASRAC Miscellaneous Refrigeration Working Group Meeting

May 4, 2015

202-347-3700 Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. 866-928-6509

Page 176

1 products are actually operated at a 90-degree ambient

2 in the field. Why don't we test them at a

3 temperature that's closer to how they're operated and

4 then, if necessary, you know apply some adjustment

5 factor to account for the, you know, limited door

6 openings or their heat loads.

7 And I think another concern, and DOE had

8 presented some test data of cooled cabinets at both

9 72 and 90. And I think there was one instance where

10 at 90 degrees one product consumed 30 percent more

11 energy than another, whereas testing at 72 they were

12 essentially identical. So, I think we'd like a test

13 procedure that gives us a good reflection of how

14 products will actually perform in the field.

15 MR. RAMIREZ: Correct me if I'm wrong

16 here, so what we're trying to do here is identify the

17 different products, identify which, I guess for lack

18 of a better word, class they belong in, the test

19 procedure, and the standard. Correct?

20 MR. HAGERMAN: If you'd just go back to

21 this diagram, we're trying to figure out the

22 divisions between the left- and right-hand column
ASRAC Miscellaneous Refrigeration Working Group Meeting

May 4, 2015

202-347-3700 Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. 866-928-6509

Page 177

1 here and some type of narrative definition.

2 MS. BUTLER: I just wanted to jump in --

3 MS. HOFFMAN: Sarah.

4 MS. BUTLER: This is Sarah Butler, DOE --

5 and answer your question about why we're not defining

6 these under refrigerators, refrigerator freezers, and

7 freezers. And I apologize. I didn't have the

8 statutory provision in front of me, so I just wanted

9 to go back and look; but I guess the best way to

10 answer your question is that there was some ambiguity

11 as to whether some of these products would actually

12 fall under that definition because the definition of

13 refrigerator and refrigerator freezer includes some

14 kind of food storage.

15 And so, there's a question of is wine

16 food; is it not food? So, that's why we categorized

17 things as we have, but as it sounds like you guys are

18 discussing now that's something that you should

19 definitely discuss in this negotiated rulemaking. 

20 Does that answer your question? Okay. Yes.

21 MR. RAMIREZ: Let me suggest this, I want

22 to try to see if we could capture it a little bit
ASRAC Miscellaneous Refrigeration Working Group Meeting

May 4, 2015

202-347-3700 Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. 866-928-6509

Page 178

1 different, and let's take a break because I want to

2 see if I could pull something else up on here to help

3 us look at the same thing. So, give us about 15

4 minutes and then we'll come back and we'll see if we

5 can't try to structure this conversation a little

6 better.

7 MS. HOFFMAN: We look forward to hearing

8 from some of you folks who've been stepping back, and

9 with your perspective. So, we may call on a few

10 people too.

11 (Whereupon, a short recess was taken.)

12 MR. RAMIREZ: All right, so Ashley has

13 joined us, and I think she's going to be able to help

14 with some of the discussion that we've been having,

15 so let's have at it.

16 MS. ARMSTRONG: I'm Ashley Armstrong. I'm

17 from DOE.

18 So, I think I need to hear a little bit of

19 the discussion to hear what the hang up is, but I'll

20 say DOE's intention with this twofold. One is to

21 clarify scope of coverage with regards to the

22 refrigerator, refrigerator freezer, and freezer
ASRAC Miscellaneous Refrigeration Working Group Meeting

May 4, 2015

202-347-3700 Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. 866-928-6509

Page 179

1 definition so that there's no overlap between that

2 and cooled cabinets; but also I think we see it

3 separately. Scope of coverage is different than test

4 procedures. Test procedures and the ability to

5 maintain test procedure conditions don't necessarily

6 link to scope of coverage; in other words, inability

7 to test doesn't necessarily mean you're not covered.

8 It's not a one-to-one thing for the

9 Department, so I don't think that you necessarily

10 need to look at the language as being exclusive or

11 needing to be identical to the conditions that are

12 reflected in the test procedure because I think we

13 were trying to do -- I would say accomplish two

14 different goals there.

15 So, can somebody just summarize for me the

16 couple of issues with regards to the 72-degrees

17 ambient that we've proposed as the distinction? And

18 I think we were saying 72-degree ambient as reflected

19 of fuel conditions, acknowledging that 90 degrees is

20 the temperature for which the test procedure for at

21 least refrigerators, freezers, and refrigerator

22 freezers is run for a variety of different reasons,
ASRAC Miscellaneous Refrigeration Working Group Meeting

May 4, 2015

202-347-3700 Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. 866-928-6509

Page 180

1 which, in my opinion, have been well documented over

2 the years and there's no intention of modifying that.

3 MR. RAMIREZ: All right, so Bill could I

4 ask you to summarize again the points you had made

5 with regards to issue with 90?

6 MR. BROWN: Okay, Bill Brown, GE

7 Appliances.

8 Some of the issues we had is the test

9 burden issue of a 72-degree test that you would -- by

10 a third party lab not familiar with the product would

11 have to test at 72-degree ambient to determine the

12 product class and then test at 90 degrees in order to

13 get the energy test, so it's an additional test in

14 that regard.

15 And the other pieces are I think you just

16 acknowledged you know that why you're testing at 90

17 degrees to begin with. Some of the things you're

18 accounting is not just the ambient itself -- not just

19 the door openings as well, but the food load into the

20 product, being able to still act like a refrigerator

21 when you see door openings and when the unit sees

22 door openings and food loads. So, just at 72 degrees
ASRAC Miscellaneous Refrigeration Working Group Meeting

May 4, 2015

202-347-3700 Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. 866-928-6509

Page 181

1 with no door openings that really is not how a

2 refrigerator is used. 

3 It does have food loads. It does have

4 door openings. And just testing at you know what

5 ambient you expect to see does not capture those

6 added features which make a refrigerator a

7 refrigerator.

8 MS. ARMSTRONG: Okay, so thank you for

9 that. I think you kind of summarized why we see this

10 as two different things, one is scope of coverage and

11 intended use of a product. And I think guys intend

12 your products to generally be used at ambient

13 conditions, recognizing people are going to put food

14 in them. People are going to store different things

15 in them, and obviously they may see, depending on

16 where they are installed, they may see a variety of

17 different actual ambient conditions; but roughly

18 speaking, I think we could all agree that 72 may be

19 representative of an ambient condition they would

20 like see in the field.

21 Test conditions are different. We are

22 trying to simulate other things, as you so greatly
ASRAC Miscellaneous Refrigeration Working Group Meeting

May 4, 2015

202-347-3700 Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. 866-928-6509

Page 182

1 summarized for me, with minimizing burdens. So, the

2 90 degrees is a different animal altogether. It's

3 representative of ambient door openings, food

4 storage, a variety of different things, so I don't

5 think they need to be one in the same.

6 So, I guess the question for you is we

7 stated in previous rules that the definition of

8 refrigerator, refrigerator freezer, and freezer is

9 meant to encompass products that are intended to be

10 use for food storage -- I don't have it right in

11 front of me -- that are capable of operating over

12 this range of temperatures as described in our regs

13 when installed in the field, so how would you

14 translate that "when installed in the field" to a

15 hard line where you could draw a distinction between

16 refrigerator, refrigerator freezer, and freezer and

17 cooled cabinet. Really, it's just refrigerator, but

18 do you see my differentiation? 

19 Though, I don't think our intention was to

20 increase test burden or make you test twice. That's

21 not necessarily what we were going for, but I think

22 what we are looking for is to draw a clear line on
ASRAC Miscellaneous Refrigeration Working Group Meeting

May 4, 2015

202-347-3700 Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. 866-928-6509

Page 183

1 intended use. And your intended use is for food

2 storage at ambient conditions, and those ambient

3 conditions are probably more reflective of 70-ish

4 than they are of 90-ish. The 90 is meant to

5 encompass additional things as a test reducing

6 measure and to increase repeatability. So, how would

7 you do it differently?

8 MR. BROWN: This is Bill at GE.

9 I mean I would do it at 90 degrees. That

10 does take into account, not just the ambient but how

11 the product is used. So, if I cannot maintain the

12 temperature at 90 degrees, I certainly would not be

13 able to expect to maintain it at 70 degrees with the

14 doors being opened and food being introduced into the

15 cabinet.

16 MS. ARMSTRONG: Anybody else?

17 MS. CLEARY: Yes. I mean I think Ashley

18 what our view was is that if the 90 is meant to be

19 representative of actual consumer use then 90 is

20 representative of actual consumer use, 72 is not,

21 unless all of a sudden the product has a load and has

22 door openings. So, I kind of feel like we're trying
ASRAC Miscellaneous Refrigeration Working Group Meeting

May 4, 2015

202-347-3700 Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. 866-928-6509

Page 184

1 to get to the same point, and it's just that in our

2 view the reasons for the 90 degrees are exactly the

3 reasons why that should remain the same.

4 In addition to that, I think there are

5 some test burden considerations other than

6 potentially having to do the test twice, which,

7 namely, is that at least our members have told us

8 that they don't have the capability to -- like they

9 don't have one room that could do 72 and 90, so this

10 is a consideration for later as well, but it's not as

11 simple as changing the thermostat maybe like you do

12 in your house and this could and likely would require

13 manufacturers and certainly third-party test labs, as

14 far as we understand, to have to build a whole other

15 room potentially to satisfy this. It could also

16 decrease the number of products that they're able to

17 test in their lab. So, that's just a practical

18 consideration as well.

19 MR. RAMIREZ: Joanna?

20 MS. MAUER: Joanna Mauer.

21 If I could maybe ask a question, which is

22 I think the 72 degrees came from the observation that
ASRAC Miscellaneous Refrigeration Working Group Meeting

May 4, 2015

202-347-3700 Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. 866-928-6509

Page 185

1 some of these products can't maintain the target

2 temperatures at 90 degrees. So, if the definition --

3 or if we didn't have this 72-degree provision and a

4 product could not meet the target cabinet temperature

5 at a 90-degree ambient what would happen to that

6 product?

7 MR. WATSON: This is Troy Watson from

8 Navigant.

9 I think that's bringing test procedure

10 issues again into that coverage issue. So, if 90 was

11 in the definition and the product couldn't maintain

12 39 or lower, it would be bumped to a cooled cabinet;

13 but the reason we're proposing testing there isn't

14 necessarily because it can or cannot maintain

15 compartment temperatures. It's because we thought

16 the test results at 90 weren't representative of

17 actual use compared to the test results at 72 for

18 those products, and this is the thermo electric

19 cooled cabinets, not the NCRs. Those would be tested

20 at 90 also.

21 MS. BUTLER: So, I think to answer your

22 question directly it would just be bumped from
ASRAC Miscellaneous Refrigeration Working Group Meeting

May 4, 2015

202-347-3700 Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. 866-928-6509

Page 186

1 refrigerators, freezers, and refrigerator freezers,

2 right? So, we're including a test condition in scope

3 of coverage. And typically, the way DOE does this is

4 just because you can't test doesn't mean you're not

5 covered. Just because you can't test something and

6 you don't meet the definition doesn't get you out of

7 coverage or ultimately having to meet standards if

8 standards are set.

9 So, it really comes down to prior to

10 including this what did DOE intend to do in its

11 refrigerator, refrigerator freezer, and freezer regs

12 when it established test procedures and standard. 

13 And it always has been how they were intended to be

14 installed in the field or marketed to be used in the

15 field, not necessarily whether they could run the

16 test. If you can't run the test, you're required to

17 get a waiver. You know it doesn't get rid of your

18 responsibility to ultimately -- your regulatory

19 responsibility.

20 MS. MAUER: This is Joanna again.

21 So, I guess I understand the same thing

22 would apply if a thermo electric cooled cabinet and
ASRAC Miscellaneous Refrigeration Working Group Meeting

May 4, 2015

202-347-3700 Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. 866-928-6509

Page 187

1 you can't maintain the 55 degrees at 90 degrees you

2 couldn't be rated at a cooled cabinet, but a

3 manufacturer can sell that product.

4 MS. ARMSTRONG: It all depends on how you

5 structure the definitions, right? If the definitions

6 are ultimately establishing scope of coverage and you

7 include a test condition as part of that, then that

8 test condition has become part of you determining

9 whether or not you're in or out.

10 MS. MAUER: So, in that case, there could

11 be a potential loophole?

12 MS. ARMSTRONG: There could be some issues

13 there.

14 MS. MAUER: Yes.

15 MR. WATSON: This is Troy Watson again.

16 I think the proposed definition for cooled

17 cabinets doesn't have a minimum temperature that

18 product must maintain, so those only require that

19 it's below ambient and above the 39. So, I don't

20 think those would ever not meet the definition.

21 MS. ARMSTRONG: But just to go back to

22 this -- this is Ashley from DOE.
ASRAC Miscellaneous Refrigeration Working Group Meeting

May 4, 2015

202-347-3700 Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. 866-928-6509

Page 188

1 So, if we were to change this, what

2 products are out there right now conceivably that you

3 would see a difference between 72 and 90? There's a

4 lot of manufacturers around the table, so what are

5 the products that we're talking about here that you

6 would see the delta?

7 MR. MOUW: This is Nate from Whirlpool.

8 Can you restate that differently?

9 MS. ARMSTRONG: Yes.

10 MR. MOUW: Different between what and

11 what? You mean that would cross over from one

12 category to another?

13 MS. ARMSTRONG: Mm-hmm.

14 MR. MOUW: Okay.

15 MS. ARMSTRONG: So, are there any products

16 out there that would be capable of maintaining the

17 compartment temperatures in a 72, but would not in a

18 90, and that are currently characterized or currently

19 under DOE's are characterized as refrigerators,

20 refrigerator freezers? Freezers doesn't matter.

21 MR. MOUW: I mean the only ones that I can

22 acknowledge are the ones that you found in the
ASRAC Miscellaneous Refrigeration Working Group Meeting

May 4, 2015

202-347-3700 Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. 866-928-6509

Page 189

1 proposed rule, right, the cooled cabinets and the

2 non-compressor refrigerators that were unable to

3 maintain temperatures at 90.

4 MR. HON: This is Charlie Hon.

5 There's also the question because at that

6 point then we could start engineering more efficient

7 products by reducing the capability of the

8 compressors and other componentry (sic). In which

9 case, we could make products that are presently

10 listed either more cost effective or more energy

11 efficient, but at the cost of falling into this

12 category. Put a small enough compressor and you

13 can't meet the original test.

14 MS. ARMSTRONG: So, I think from DOE's

15 perspective we weren't trying to include a specific

16 test condition as Bill was seeing it. We were

17 actually just trying to put a hard line qualifying

18 what intended for residential refrigerator meant,

19 consumer refrigerator meant.

20 MR. BROWN: This is Bill from GE.

21 Again, a third party lab who would they

22 know what a product can do at 72 unless they tested
ASRAC Miscellaneous Refrigeration Working Group Meeting

May 4, 2015

202-347-3700 Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. 866-928-6509

Page 190

1 the product at 72?

2 MS. ARMSTRONG: How does a third party lab

3 determine if your product means the definition today?

4 MR. BROWN: Well, they test it at 90

5 degrees.

6 MR. ARMSTRONG: Testing doesn't define

7 scope of coverage.

8 MR. BROWN: I'm not sure what you're

9 trying to get at. I mean there's only one thing that

10 we're asking a third-party lab to do, which is to

11 give us an energy number. I'm not asking a

12 third-party lab to determine scope of coverage. So,

13 when you send a product to a third-party lab, they're

14 testing at whatever the reference temperature is with

15 the correct test. So, you're adding this requirement

16 that says it has to be able to meet these

17 temperatures at 72 degrees.

18 Well, the third-party lab doesn't know,

19 given the product, what it can meet at 72 degrees. 

20 It maybe able to meet refrigerator temperatures at 72

21 degrees, but it cannot meet them at 90 and you saw

22 thermo electric products that did that.
ASRAC Miscellaneous Refrigeration Working Group Meeting

May 4, 2015

202-347-3700 Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. 866-928-6509

Page 191

1 MS. ARMSTRONG: This is Ashley for DOE.

2 I think you just made my point as to why

3 while we were trying to qualify what scope of

4 coverage was we didn't propose a test. There's no

5 test in here that you guys have to run to determine

6 that it fits into this bucket. Conceivably, you know

7 when you design your products if it's capable of

8 maintaining compartment temperatures at a given

9 ambient condition. We were trying to provide some

10 qualification around that, though.

11 MR. BROWN: You're right. I would know

12 that for my product. Intertech, ARCSA or UL would

13 have no idea.

14 MR. TOPPING: Dick Topping, Sub-Zero.

15 Yes, but DOE, as part of this change in

16 definition, brought up an issue that you know designs

17 are maintained is not adequate. It has to maintain. 

18 And how do you know if it's going to maintain it if

19 you don't test it?

20 MS. ARMSTRONG: I mean that's fair, right? 

21 And if there became an issue in terms of enforcement,

22 I think we would, in and of ourselves test. That
ASRAC Miscellaneous Refrigeration Working Group Meeting

May 4, 2015

202-347-3700 Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. 866-928-6509

Page 192

1 doesn't necessarily mean you have to all the time. 

2 You would know when you're designing, but if a

3 question came up over capability this is a clear line

4 in the sand. We thought we were qualifying how scope

5 of coverage is determined today. And like Bill said,

6 that scope of coverage isn't determined by a lab. It

7 should be determined by a manufacturer that knows the

8 attributes of its product.

9 MR. TOPPING: Can I just follow up on

10 that? I mean but the reality is what this requires

11 is units to be tested tested at 72 and tested at 90. 

12 Right now with refrigerators they need to be tested

13 at 90, so there are additional tests required because

14 you know again a design too isn't good enough any

15 more. It has to be verified.

16 MR. RAMIREZ: Jennifer?

17 MS. CLEARY: Jen Cleary.

18 Yes. And I guess I'm a little confused,

19 Ashley. I'm not trying to be cute here, but you said

20 that DOE didn't define the test procedure for the 72,

21 but that if DOE had a question you would test. So,

22 how would you test because manufacturers are going to
ASRAC Miscellaneous Refrigeration Working Group Meeting

May 4, 2015

202-347-3700 Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. 866-928-6509

Page 193

1 want to know that because they're going to want to

2 make sure that if you test they're going to get the

3 same answer that you're going to get? So, I feel

4 like that doesn't really make sense.

5 MS. ARMSTRONG: We can definitely do that

6 to the extent that's what you're asking for.

7 MS. CLEARY: No, I'm not -- Jen Cleary.

8 We're not asking for another test. We're

9 asking not to have another test and we're saying what

10 you're proposing would require another test.

11 MS. ARMSTRONG: I mean I really think it

12 gets down to the delta, right, in our opinion. So,

13 you guys want to convince us to agree to the 90 for

14 test burden reasons, but what I think we're trying to

15 understand is what that delta would be because we've

16 been very clear in some of the preamble statements in

17 our previous refrigerator regs that prior to the

18 introduction of the 72 degrees that you know we

19 determine scope of coverage as they are capable of

20 operating in the field when you know they are

21 deployed in the field, how you are selling them, and

22 that's not necessarily always at 90. So, that's
ASRAC Miscellaneous Refrigeration Working Group Meeting

May 4, 2015

202-347-3700 Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. 866-928-6509

Page 194

1 where we were with that one.

2 MS. CLEARY: Jen Cleary with AHAM.

3 I mean it sounds to me like we have a

4 common goal here and we're just you know not sure how

5 to get there. And I'm not sure I have an answer, but

6 it sounds a little confusing to me. You know on one

7 hand it sounds like DOE's expectation is that it

8 actually is designed to maintain these temperatures

9 at the -- but then also DOE has said they don't want

10 to say that. So, I think maybe we need a little more

11 clarity from you guys as to why.

12 MS. ARMSTRONG: This is Ashley from DOE.

13 I don't think we're opposed necessarily to

14 only using designed. I think we've been questioned

15 about -- we've gotten questions specifically about

16 what designed means. And if you get into a certain

17 situation, there was some desire to have some

18 concrete attributes about what that design intention

19 was at the point of manufacture.

20 I can believe someone designed it to be

21 capable of operating at 39 and someone else may

22 believe they did not design it to be capable,
ASRAC Miscellaneous Refrigeration Working Group Meeting

May 4, 2015

202-347-3700 Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. 866-928-6509

Page 195

1 regardless it was capable of operating at 39.

2 MS. CLEARY: Jen Cleary with AHAM.

3 I understand that difficulty, but it just

4 seems like as soon as you introduce the bright line

5 approach with this temperature, especially, you know

6 in a climate of increased enforcement we then

7 introduce the need for another test, which I don't

8 think anyone would want to double the burden, right,

9 that's already on manufacturers with an already

10 pretty burdensome test. So, I think the 90 is the

11 test temperature that's already being used for the

12 actual test. And I guess I'm a little confused as to

13 why that's not sufficient for DOE? Why it doesn't

14 accomplish both goals?

15 MR. HAGERMAN: This is Joe Hagerman, DOE.

16 Can I ask just a quick question, so

17 presumably, you sell your products to the consumers,

18 right, and most consumers do keep their houses at 72

19 and not 90. I understand that you do the test for

20 the regulation at 90 and you're worried about doing a

21 similar test at 72 because you're worried that your

22 product may not make it, may not satisfy the
ASRAC Miscellaneous Refrigeration Working Group Meeting

May 4, 2015

202-347-3700 Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. 866-928-6509

Page 196

1 requirement, but that's the temperature that you're

2 selling the products to the consumers at, right?

3 I mean the consumers have their houses at

4 72, so it seems like you shouldn't be worried if

5 you're selling those products to consumers that you

6 have any doubts that they're going to be capable of

7 maintaining these compartment temperatures, right;

8 otherwise, you wouldn't be selling them to consumers. 

9 I guess I don't follow quite your logic of the worry

10 of your products operating in the consumer

11 environment that you're trying to sell them to.

12 And in fact, I mean if you wanted to I

13 think if you just added the clarification that

14 products are sold to the public to maintain

15 compartment temperatures at 72 I think we'd be fine

16 with that too because that sort of defines the in

17 field use, right? Does that make sense? Was that

18 clear? I see Tim smiling. Did I confuse you? Okay.

19 MR. RAMIREZ: Let me get Bill, Charlie,

20 then Nathan.

21 MR. BROWN: Bill Brown, GE.

22 Certainly, we're not afraid of testing our
ASRAC Miscellaneous Refrigeration Working Group Meeting

May 4, 2015

202-347-3700 Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. 866-928-6509

Page 197

1 products at 72 degrees. The products that are out

2 there today we can certainly meet at 90 degrees, so

3 testing at 72 is really not a concern for whether we

4 can make that or not.

5 The issue seems to be for these extra

6 products that you're looking at covering now, say the

7 non-compressor refrigerators that can meet something

8 at 72 degrees that cannot meet it at 90. And as far

9 as 72 being the ambient it's used at, I mean I'll go

10 back to the DOE's on regulations, 430.2310, that

11 states the principles of interpretation applied to

12 the test procedure simulate typical room conditions,

13 approximately 70 degrees with door opening by testing

14 at 90. So, the DOE's own procedures say that 90

15 degrees simulates typical field conditions, not 72.

16 MR. RAMIREZ: Charlie, then Nathan.

17 MR. HON: He covered it.

18 MR. MOUW: This is Nathan for Whirlpool.

19 I guess maybe just a suggestion. I think

20 a lot of our conversations would be different if

21 we're talking about cooled cabinets versus if we're

22 talking about non-compressor refrigerators, and I
ASRAC Miscellaneous Refrigeration Working Group Meeting

May 4, 2015

202-347-3700 Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. 866-928-6509

Page 198

1 think in a conversation that maybe causing some

2 confusion amongst us all, whether we know it or not. 

3 So, a suggestion would be maybe let's talk about one

4 and then talk about the next to understand the

5 perspectives on both of those and then come back for

6 a conclusion.

7 MR. HAGERMAN: Can I make one slight

8 modification to see if we're actually closer than we

9 are far? Why don't we just copy, Bill, what you read

10 to us right after "capable of maintaining compartment

11 temperatures" and then what you said. You said

12 something about 70 degrees and testing at 90 degrees. 

13 I don't know what you're reading from.

14 MR. BROWN: Yes, this is Bill Brown.

15 I'm looking at 430.23, Section 10, that's

16 the statement in the DOE precursor.

17 MS. BUTLER: It's the products rated.

18 MR. BROWN: No, no, it's not on the

19 products rated.

20 MS. BUTLER: Sure it is.

21 MR. BROWN: I mean, specifically, it says

22 "The principles of interpretation should be applied
ASRAC Miscellaneous Refrigeration Working Group Meeting

May 4, 2015

202-347-3700 Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. 866-928-6509

Page 199

1 to the test procedure. The intent of the energy test

2 procedure is to simulate room conditions

3 (approximately 70 degrees) with door openings by

4 testing at 90 without door openings."

5 I mean so this is saying that DOE's field

6 conditions are representative by 90 degrees with no

7 door openings, but at 72 degrees -- it's not

8 mentioned here, but 72 degrees would not represent

9 how a product is used in the field.

10 MR. MOUW: This is Nathan from Whirlpool.

11 If I could add, I mean it is, I think, all

12 of our intent to call a product what they are as used

13 by a consumer. And Bill, to your point, I mean,

14 again, separating cooled cabinets from

15 non-compressor. Non-compressor refrigerators are

16 refrigerators and would have, we could assume,

17 similar door openings to a refrigerator with a

18 compressor. So, it seems like you know we'd want to

19 treat the same way we treat our existing

20 refrigerators with -- sorry, vapor compression

21 refrigerators.

22 MR. RAMIREZ: Both of those?
ASRAC Miscellaneous Refrigeration Working Group Meeting

May 4, 2015

202-347-3700 Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. 866-928-6509

Page 200

1 MR. MOUW: I guess what I'm suggesting is

2 you know defining a refrigerator as being able to

3 maintain a temperature you know at 72 ambient is

4 ignoring one of the key factors that drives the

5 performance that needed and that's door openings.

6 So, it seems like we want to say -- I

7 don't know how to say it here, but we want to say

8 could maintain a temperature as used by a consumer in

9 a typical environment, which turns out it's around 70

10 or 72-degree ambient, but it's also being opened many

11 times during the day.

12 MR. RAMIREZ: Is that what you want me to

13 just write.

14 MS. BUTLER: Not exactly, but kind of,

15 yes.

16 MR. BROWN: Bill at GE.

17 I mean what I just read was DOE's

18 statement that 90 degrees simulates 70 degrees with

19 door openings.

20 MS. BUTLER: I think here's the reality

21 from DOE's perspective. Right now we have a

22 definition for which we have been enforcing the
ASRAC Miscellaneous Refrigeration Working Group Meeting

May 4, 2015

202-347-3700 Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. 866-928-6509

Page 201

1 refrigerator, refrigerator freezer, and freezer regs

2 in terms of defining scope of coverage. Whether a

3 product should be subjected to those test procedures

4 and standards it doesn't have a capable of operating

5 or any associated temperature. And DOE has stated in

6 numerous rules that you know for the purposes of

7 defining that scope of coverage it's going to do so

8 by looking at its design to or intended use in field

9 conditions.

10 I don't think opposed to moving to a

11 capability definition that's different, such that

12 people realize that when we change that it will

13 change the scope of certain products out in the

14 market. It will move their buckets. They will now

15 not be a refrigerator, a refrigerator freezer. They

16 will be a cooled cabinet. And I think we would be

17 amenable to something like that because obviously

18 form an enforceability standpoint clearer lines are

19 better if this definition change comes in when

20 standards for these products are set. Does that make

21 sense?

22 I think you're hearing from DOE we'd be
ASRAC Miscellaneous Refrigeration Working Group Meeting

May 4, 2015

202-347-3700 Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. 866-928-6509

Page 202

1 agreeable to something 90 if that definition kicks in

2 with amended standards for these products with the

3 acknowledgement that it may cause some equipment what

4 is now considered to be a refrigerator or a

5 refrigerator freezer to be a cooled cabinet, but

6 otherwise would be covered some way.

7 MR. RAMIREZ: I see some heads bobbing. 

8 Are we getting closer to an understanding?

9 MS. CLEARY: This is Jen Cleary.

10 I think that's exactly what we were

11 proposing. I mean our concern was that this change

12 in the definition would cause that to happen and that

13 it shouldn't happen, that a change in this rulemaking

14 shouldn't cause currently covered products that are

15 currently complying with the standard to no longer

16 comply with the standard. So, you know we can keep

17 considering that.

18 MR. RAMIREZ: All right, Tim?

19 MR. BALLO: I hate asking this question,

20 but it sure sounds like you're asking us is it okay

21 for us to backslide here potentially, and I think

22 that is the result. I guess let me ask a follow up,
ASRAC Miscellaneous Refrigeration Working Group Meeting

May 4, 2015

202-347-3700 Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. 866-928-6509

Page 203

1 though. If I'm a manufacturer and I want to pursue

2 the much larger refrigerator market by selling my

3 product and certifying it as a refrigerator, DOE,

4 however, tests it and finds that it doesn't meet the

5 definition of a refrigerator. It only really

6 qualifies as a cooled cabinet is there a

7 certification violation there?

8 MS. BUTLER: I mean ultimately they'd need

9 to certify with what the product they meet the

10 definition. So, if they haven't certified with the

11 correct product, then I have a feeling Laura might be

12 calling them -- letters, sorry, but ultimately, yes,

13 that would be an issue. They need to certify with

14 the product definition that they meet.

15 So, I mean it might be something you guys

16 need to think about what I put on the table. 

17 Obviously, Tim's counter of is this backsliding? We

18 need to talk to counsel about, but I think that's how

19 you ultimately may be able to get what you want.

20 MR. MOUW: Yes, this is Nate from

21 Whirlpool.

22 I'm just curious about a little more
ASRAC Miscellaneous Refrigeration Working Group Meeting

May 4, 2015

202-347-3700 Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. 866-928-6509

Page 204

1 discussion on backsliding. I guess I don't see how

2 that happens in this case, but just maybe if we can

3 facilitate some more discussion here.

4 MR. HAGERMAN: I agree with that Nathan. 

5 I see it as more like side-sliding rather than

6 backsliding, right? You go from bucket jumping, yes.

7 MS. BUTLER: They call it bucket jumping.

8 MR. HAGERMAN: You go from a refrigerator

9 to a cooled cabinet. So, your hotel rooms no longer

10 have refrigerators in them. They have cooled

11 cabinets, right? 

12 MR. MOUW: This is Nate from Whirlpool.

13 I personally don't see that as

14 backsliding. But again, this sounds like sort of a

15 pivotal discussion, so let's continue and see if

16 we're all on the same page.

17 MR. RAMIREZ: Well, let me ask Tim, what

18 you do think of that interpretation of side versus

19 back?

20 MR. BALLO: I mean it's a kind of unique

21 situation that we don't have a standard for cooled

22 cabinets yet, so I think it's premature to say it's
ASRAC Miscellaneous Refrigeration Working Group Meeting

May 4, 2015

202-347-3700 Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. 866-928-6509

Page 205

1 definitely backsliding or definitely not backsliding. 

2 It's just an issue I think we need to keep in mind

3 through the course of this because for DOE to, after

4 the issuance of a refrigerator standard, go back and

5 say well we're changing the definition of what a

6 refrigerator is and now products that formally

7 would've met that definition actually will have to

8 meet this -- will now qualify as some other products

9 that meets potentially a weaker standard sounds that

10 would be backsliding, but that's not necessarily

11 where this will end up, so you know I just think it's

12 another piece of the negotiations that's still in

13 play.

14 MR. HON: This is Charlie Hon.

15 You mentioned one thing in there that if

16 we jump buckets I think that's part of our purview

17 here to clarify those buckets, what they really mean

18 because part of our ability is to also require maybe

19 labeling and defining products quite clearly for the

20 consumer.

21 I'm very troubled by what I just heard

22 that if I would go to a hotel room and I brought my
ASRAC Miscellaneous Refrigeration Working Group Meeting

May 4, 2015

202-347-3700 Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. 866-928-6509

Page 206

1 leftover dinner home and put it in the refrigerator

2 in the room it may or may not be food safe. And

3 that's something -- because effectively to me the

4 hotel is giving me something there which isn't

5 necessarily just to keep my soft drink cold, cooler,

6 but is actually put there so that I have some ability

7 to refrigerate a product.

8 And if they're putting in products that

9 really do not meet food safety that's a second issue. 

10 And if we put something in the cooler cabinet's

11 bucket and it has to be labeled as a cooler cabinet I

12 think that term I think a lot of hotel chains will be

13 very serious about their idea of possible litigation

14 because they're putting something in there that

15 wouldn't meet the minimum requirements of the product

16 that's being placed. So, I think that jumping

17 buckets may be a good thing for the nation.

18 MR. RAMIREZ: Mary?

19 MS. DANE: This is Mary from Traulsen.

20 I just wanted to touch on the issue of

21 backsliding. Like Tim, I don't see this as

22 backsliding because we have some categories that seem
ASRAC Miscellaneous Refrigeration Working Group Meeting

May 4, 2015

202-347-3700 Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. 866-928-6509

Page 207

1 to be all inclusive maybe too much so. I believe

2 what we're trying to do is clarify and get the best

3 definitions and the best test methods for the best

4 products.

5 I think it's only when we understand

6 what's covered by those things and how to cover food

7 safety and energy efficiency together that we get a

8 good rule. So, I just wanted to put my two cents in

9 on backsliding and how ^^^^ you know I don't even

10 know if I'd call it side-sliding. I think this is

11 better clarification of a group of products that is

12 confusing, at best, for some folks.

13 MR. HAGERMAN: So, Javier, let's take a

14 vote on this to see how far off we are? I'm sorry,

15 Charlie. I didn't see you.

16 MR. HON: I think there's one other thing

17 that needs to be discussed here and that's an

18 additional portion of the regulations, which is the

19 waiver process. And there is an opportunity for

20 companies to do a waiver process. I think Ashley

21 would be much more adept at describing the waiver

22 process than myself, but there are processes which
ASRAC Miscellaneous Refrigeration Working Group Meeting

May 4, 2015

202-347-3700 Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. 866-928-6509

Page 208

1 will allow certain things to happen.

2 MR. RAMIREZ: So, then as far as the

3 definition, Joe, I'm going to let you do the wording.

4 MR. HAGERMAN: I was thinking that we'd

5 just -- we're voting on that second bullet there and

6 changing the 70 to 90.

7 MS. CLEARY: Are we voting voting or

8 taking a temperature? Not the temperature of 70

9 versus 90, but the temperature of the room.

10 MR. RAMIREZ: Well, let me ask what would

11 be the hesitation with voting on that versus a

12 temperature check if it's at 90?

13 MS. CLEARY: I think there's been some

14 comments raised about is this backsliding and you

15 know bucket jumping that maybe some of us might need

16 to think through a little bit more.

17 MR. RAMIREZ: And I thought that, at least

18 from ^^^^

19 MS. HOFFMAN: You brought up the term.

20 MR. BALLO: I have backsliding concerns. 

21 I'm not ready to say it's for sure backsliding

22 because it may not be.
ASRAC Miscellaneous Refrigeration Working Group Meeting

May 4, 2015

202-347-3700 Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. 866-928-6509

Page 209

1 MR. RAMIREZ: Right. Because that would

2 be on ultimate standards that develop, right? So,

3 but at least for now we're just trying to capture the

4 definition and so again, what would be the concern

5 with a temperature check versus an actual -- is this

6 good enough? 

7 MS. MAUER: Joanna Mauer.

8 I have to admit that I'm a little bit

9 confused, so I want to understand what we're talking

10 about exactly. This clarification that we're editing

11 now is to the definition of refrigerator,

12 refrigerator freezer, and freezer?

13 MS. BUTLER: Correct.

14 MS. MAUER: Okay. So, we're talking about

15 changes to a definition that applies to a lot of

16 products that are already covered and have standards. 

17 Okay.

18 MS. ARMSTRONG: You're going to take some

19 types ^^^^ so right now the way DOE has been

20 enforcing scope of coverage as it relates to

21 refrigerator freezer you know the language in the

22 current definition, and I'm doing this loosely
ASRAC Miscellaneous Refrigeration Working Group Meeting

May 4, 2015

202-347-3700 Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. 866-928-6509

Page 210

1 because I don't have it right in front of me, but is

2 all around designed intent. It's designed to have

3 food storage. It's designed to be capable of

4 operating at certain temperatures, but there's

5 nothing with regards to ambient. So, we see that

6 design -- you design products for the consumer. You

7 design products for the use of consumer in their

8 houses. And we've acknowledged that that's around

9 the 70-ish with door openings and food storage, so

10 that's where we were going with this to maintain that

11 same intent.

12 If we were to change this at 90 you know

13 similar to tested conditions, we do believe there may

14 be a few products that would now be considered cooled

15 cabinets that could not maintain 90 test

16 temperatures. Right now, as Charlie mentioned, what

17 we would do with those is we would still call them

18 refrigerators, refrigerators freezers, and freezers,

19 but we'd tell if you can't maintain 90 you got to

20 give a waiver. You have to get a waiver for an

21 alternative temperature. You just don't not meet the

22 definition. I don't think that's the best way to say
ASRAC Miscellaneous Refrigeration Working Group Meeting

May 4, 2015

202-347-3700 Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. 866-928-6509

Page 211

1 that.

2 MR. RAMIREZ: Let me get Bill, then Dick.

3 MR. BROWN: This is Bill.

4 I agree with the statement that they have

5 to go get a waiver. The energy regs state that if

6 you can't meet the temperature, then there's no

7 energy use rating. My question would have you

8 received any waivers from vapor compressor products

9 to test at a different ambient?

10 MS. ARMSTRONG: This is Ashley.

11 I'm not sure off the top of my head. I

12 know we haven't issued any, per say. I know we have

13 had some questions and some issues surrounding this

14 particular kind of touchy situation, let's put it

15 that way.

16 MR. BROWN: This is Bill again.

17 I recall one waiver that you denied. I

18 don't recall any of the --

19 MS. ARMSTRONG: If it was capable at

20 operating at test conditions --

21 MR. BROWN: Yes. I don't recall any that

22 the DOE granted.
ASRAC Miscellaneous Refrigeration Working Group Meeting

May 4, 2015

202-347-3700 Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. 866-928-6509

Page 212

1 MS. ARMSTRONG: Okay.

2 MR. RAMIREZ: Dick?

3 MR. TOPPING: Dick Topping, Sub-Zero.

4 Just a point of clarification, when we

5 talk about refrigerator, refrigerator freezer, and

6 freezer are we talking about the products that exist

7 today that are regulated? Are we adding to that

8 non-compressor refrigerator, refrigerator freezer,

9 and freezer?

10 MS. ARMSTRONG: Products that exist today.

11 MR. TOPPING: This is just for today?

12 MS. ARMSTRONG: Yes.

13 MR. RAMIREZ: So, let me ask the group are

14 you okay with taking a temperature -- not a

15 temperature vote -- an actual vote on this?

16 MS. ARMSTRONG: So, maybe I somewhat

17 misunderstood your question, but the 90 would kick in

18 later, right?

19 MR. TOPPING: No, no, the question I have

20 is that's -- ?

21 MS. ARMSTRONG: Correct.

22 MR. TOPPING: What about that?
ASRAC Miscellaneous Refrigeration Working Group Meeting

May 4, 2015

202-347-3700 Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. 866-928-6509

Page 213

1 MR. RAMIREZ: I think we're just talking

2 about refrigerators -- so this is specifically for

3 refrigerators, refrigerator freezers, and freezers.

4 MR. HAGERMAN: Just to go back, this is

5 the left bucket there, the one with the asterisk.

6 MS. CLEARY: This is Jennifer Cleary.

7 Is the reason we're wanting to make this

8 change now instead of doing what presumably will be a

9 test procedure revision in connection with

10 refrigerator standards because we want to make sure

11 it's clear for cooled cabinets?

12 MR. RAMIREZ: Yes, that was yes.

13 MS. HOFFMAN: Yes.

14 MS. BUTLER: We want you guys to

15 understand what you're negotiating.

16 MS. MAUER: This is Joanna.

17 I guess I thought the route that maybe we

18 were heading down was looking at all of these

19 refrigeration products, including some that are

20 currently covered, some that are not and putting them

21 into two buckets, the buckets being refrigerators or

22 cooled cabinets where a non-compressor refrigerator
ASRAC Miscellaneous Refrigeration Working Group Meeting

May 4, 2015

202-347-3700 Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. 866-928-6509

Page 214

1 that could maintain temperatures at 90 degrees would

2 be subject to the same standards as the current

3 standards for refrigerators, but I guess I'm unsure

4 of whether we're going down that path or not.

5 MR. RAMIREZ: Well, I think that would be

6 a next step is what do we do with the miscellaneous

7 refrigeration products. At least for right now,

8 we're just trying to define the refrigerator,

9 refrigerator freezers, and freezers. Is that the

10 understanding of everyone that we're dealing with

11 just that left side?

12 MR. MOUW: This is Nate from Whirlpool.

13 I sorry I guess maybe the question --

14 Joanna, I don't want to put words in your mouth -- is

15 why is the non-compressor refrigerator -- I'll just

16 say these and not put words in your mouth. Why is a

17 non-compressor refrigerator separate than a

18 refrigerator, refrigerator freezer, or freezer?

19 MR. RAMIREZ: Does that change the

20 definition, though, of what we're talking about? 

21 Would that change this definition?

22 MS. HOFFMAN: No, not for refrigerator.
ASRAC Miscellaneous Refrigeration Working Group Meeting

May 4, 2015

202-347-3700 Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. 866-928-6509

Page 215

1 MR. RAMIREZ: Right. And Jennifer, what

2 was that?

3 MS. CLEARY: What I think I hear Joanna

4 saying, if I can put words in your mouth too, is that

5 it may impact whether we're ready to vote right now. 

6 It's part of understanding where we're headed.

7 MR. RAMIREZ: Okay. Yes, Dick?

8 MR. TOPPING: Yes, Dick from Sub-Zero.

9 I mean Joanna makes an excellent point and

10 it may cause to kind of amplify the discussion at

11 this point, but we need to get to this point anyhow

12 and her question is a good one. Why would

13 non-compressor refrigerators be over on the right

14 side of this chart and not on the left side of this

15 chart?

16 MR. RAMIREZ: I'm just giving Ashley and

17 Troy a little time to get you an answer on that

18 before we go back to that.

19 MS. HOFFMAN: Maybe I could just ask a

20 question. Is the definition on refrigerators, that

21 part, something that do -- that's what you're doing,

22 right, I mean isn't that the current definition.
ASRAC Miscellaneous Refrigeration Working Group Meeting

May 4, 2015

202-347-3700 Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. 866-928-6509

Page 216

1 MS. BUTLER: I'm sorry. It took me a

2 minute. So, at 6292.A1, "A refrigerators,

3 refrigerator freezers, and freezers which can be

4 operated by alternating current electricity,

5 excluding a type to be use with outdoors, any type

6 which does not include a compressor and a condenser

7 as an integral part of the cabinet." I think you

8 have to do it separately.

9 MR. BALLO: This is Tim.

10 And I disagree. That's not the definition

11 of a refrigerator for all purposes. That's the scope

12 of what is currently a covered product. If DOE adds

13 covered products to within its regulatory sphere,

14 you're not constrained to still obey that

15 identification of what EPCA of what NECA originally

16 determined was a refrigerator. It would be different

17 if it was in the definition section because it is

18 only identifying the covered product applicable at

19 that time.

20 MS. ARMSTRONG: So, we all agree that the

21 current test procedures and standards apply to

22 compressor-based refrigerators and refrigerator
ASRAC Miscellaneous Refrigeration Working Group Meeting

May 4, 2015

202-347-3700 Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. 866-928-6509

Page 217

1 freezers. Correct? Tim's asking can we expand

2 coverage to that subset for non-compressor base

3 system, but still under the refrigerator freezer and

4 refrigerator freezer covered product category as well

5 as add coverage for miscellaneous refrigerator

6 products for which are non-compressor based and

7 cooled cabinets. Did I get that right?

8 MR. BALLO: I don't know if it really

9 matters how you slice that up provided that when the

10 standards get imposed on --

11 MS. ARMSTRONG: That's up to you guys. 

12 That's what you're here for. So, I mean we opted to

13 do it as a separate covered product all in this realm

14 of miscellaneous refrigeration products. That was

15 what our proposed coverage determination and

16 subsequent preliminary analysis was, so that coverage

17 was meant to say that current coverage -- your point

18 is well taken and that's something if the committee

19 was really interested we could go back and talk to

20 our lawyers about, about whether we can expand

21 coverage and add coverage. But if you don't care,

22 it's probably cleaner for us to add a new covered
ASRAC Miscellaneous Refrigeration Working Group Meeting

May 4, 2015

202-347-3700 Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. 866-928-6509

Page 218

1 product and then you can negotiate the product

2 classes and levels with separate definitions, but

3 that would mean that the current definition would

4 stand as compressor-based only so you could draw that

5 line.

6 MR. BALLO: Where I think it could be an

7 issue going forward is when you amend the

8 refrigerator standards because then you'd only be

9 amending the compressor-based refrigerator standards

10 and not the thermo electric and absorption

11 refrigerator standards.

12 MS. ARMSTRONG: I think you guys should

13 discuss this. We'd be happy to further investigate

14 whether that's a pathway if that's something that the

15 committee wanted us to do.

16 MR. RAMIREZ: Jennifer?

17 MS. CLEARY: I agree. I was going to say

18 the same thing, Tim, especially, if we -- I mean if

19 we all agree they should be treated the same that's

20 great for us to agree to that now, but then later the

21 standards change and they're different and is there

22 some way to -- I think because of the definition in
ASRAC Miscellaneous Refrigeration Working Group Meeting

May 4, 2015

202-347-3700 Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. 866-928-6509

Page 219

1 EPCA is there some way to define coverage for them,

2 but then have the same definition and wrap them into

3 the same regulation. And maybe we need DOE general

4 counsel to tell us that.

5 MS. ARMSTRONG: Yes, we would need to take

6 that "ask" back and look into it. So, is it

7 generally speaking you would like refrigerators,

8 refrigerator freezers, and freezers, to the extent

9 they are compressor-based, which is existing regs, or

10 non-compressor based, which is potentially under the

11 purview of this committee is there a way we can

12 harmonize their regulatory, I will say, schedules?

13 If we can't do it under the same coverage,

14 but we can do it separate coverage and still align

15 their schedules to help with your concerns that one

16 would be amended versus end use. That one would be

17 amended and another one wouldn't would that be okay?

18 MS. CLEARY: Maybe. I guess what I was

19 really asking was could DOE define -- say, okay, we

20 want to cover this non-compressor products. Okay,

21 now we've identified that they're in our scope of

22 coverage. We're covering them, but now we're going
ASRAC Miscellaneous Refrigeration Working Group Meeting

May 4, 2015

202-347-3700 Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. 866-928-6509

Page 220

1 to add them into our regulatory definition of

2 refrigerator, refrigerator freezer, and freezer and

3 therefore when the refrigerator rule is considered

4 then standards for non-compressor refrigerators would

5 also be set at the same time because they would then

6 be in the same product class as everything and they

7 would be included in the regulatory analysis as well.

8 MS. ARMSTRONG: Okay, I'll ask. 

9 Typically, the General Counsel's Office frowns upon

10 regulatory definitions that are broader than our

11 statutory definitions, but I will ask them. I get

12 what you're asking.

13 MR. RAMIREZ: All right, so then what I'm

14 hearing then is that the best that we could do for

15 now is to take a temperature check on this one,

16 waiting to see what type of feedback you'll get back

17 from the General Counsel's Office. Is that what you

18 are thinking as well?

19 (No response.)

20 MR. RAMIREZ: So, let's just do a

21 temperature check on this and let's see a show of

22 thumbs if we're okay with this -- and this isn't
ASRAC Miscellaneous Refrigeration Working Group Meeting

May 4, 2015

202-347-3700 Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. 866-928-6509

Page 221

1 something that's recorded. It's just for us to kind

2 of get an idea of where we're at and then we can come

3 back later.

4 MS. ARMSTRONG: So, can I make one other

5 -- I don't know if you -- sorry. I know I'm not

6 following the rules.

7 Does it matter if we haven't found any

8 non-compressor based refrigerators that can hold the

9 90 and maintain temperatures? Does this discussion

10 matter any more? They go to cooled cabinets.

11 MR. RAMIREZ: Charlie?

12 MR. HON: This is Charlie Hon.

13 MR. RAMIREZ: Excuse me. I think Charlie

14 has a response to that, unless do you have a response

15 to that?

16 MR. HON: I have one question. What's the

17 difference? If we know it's physically possible to

18 build them, why don't we just consider them now

19 because we know that there are -- those technologies

20 do exist, that theoretically we could build them,

21 especially vapor systems if we chose to build them? 

22 It wouldn't mean that we could pass the test, but we
ASRAC Miscellaneous Refrigeration Working Group Meeting

May 4, 2015

202-347-3700 Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. 866-928-6509

Page 222

1 certainly know we could get the capacity there to run

2 at 90-degrees "F."

3 MR. RAMIREZ: Bill?

4 MR. BROWN: Bill Brown, GE.

5 I mean specifically on this slide the

6 bullet that says "Acknowledgement that it may cause

7 bucket jumping." If we're specifically talking about

8 the existing products today, vapor compression, I

9 don't agree with that bullet. There is no bucket

10 jumping for the existing products. They can all beat

11 this. What you're talking about there is the future

12 products that we're trying to regulate, the thermo

13 electrics possibly those would go, but it's not this

14 specific product that you're talking about.

15 So, if this is -- all we're talking about

16 is vapor compression, the existing products, I don't

17 agree with the acknowledgement that may cause bucket

18 jumping. If we're talking about the thermo

19 electrics, I totally agree with that, but again,

20 they're not in the bucket today so there is no bucket

21 jumping. They'll just be defined whatever they are

22 at 90 degrees.
ASRAC Miscellaneous Refrigeration Working Group Meeting

May 4, 2015

202-347-3700 Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. 866-928-6509

Page 223

1 MR. RAMIREZ: Nathan?

2 MR. MOUW: Javier, I was just going to ask

3 -- this is Nathan from Whirlpool.

4 I was just going to ask for clarification

5 on what the temperature check was on and was it on

6 the first main bullet, the second main bullet, or

7 both because I think, depending on the answer to that

8 question, we may have a different perspective. The

9 first bullet sort of separates refrigerator,

10 refrigerator freezer, and freezer from what has now

11 been termed a "miscellaneous refrigeration product,"

12 and if we're unsure of what that bucket actually

13 includes, then it's hard to answer your question on

14 the second main bullet.

15 MR. RAMIREZ: Okay.

16 MS. ARMSTRONG: Can I make a suggestion

17 perhaps? It seems like all this hinges upon what our

18 counsel's office may give us feedback upon what they

19 believe. At least DOE, at first quick glance, can do

20 and cannot do. Maybe we should take a 10-minute

21 break and let us try to get an answer to that. And

22 then depending on that, we can move forward.
ASRAC Miscellaneous Refrigeration Working Group Meeting

May 4, 2015

202-347-3700 Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. 866-928-6509

Page 224

1 MS. HOFFMAN: Sounds good. 

2 MR. RAMIREZ: Back at 4:00.

3 (Whereupon, a short recess was taken.)

4 MS. BUTLER: This is Sarah Butler from

5 DOE.

6 So, we conferred on this issue, and we

7 believe that we have to create a separate product

8 class for non-condenser technology because it's

9 explicated excluded under the definition of coverage

10 under the statute.

11 We also think, just generally, it would be

12 cleaner to have all the requirements in the same

13 place. Ashley can probably explain that part better.

14 MS. ARMSTRONG: Yes. So, I think the

15 answer to Jen's question, and perhaps Tim's, is while

16 I think legally we may be able to potentially modify

17 the regulatory definitions, although there's still

18 some uncertainty there for non-compressor based

19 technology, the other provisions in the statute, such

20 as the look backs and other flow down provisions are

21 going to be based on the covered product.

22 And since it has to be a separate covered
ASRAC Miscellaneous Refrigeration Working Group Meeting

May 4, 2015

202-347-3700 Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. 866-928-6509

Page 225

1 product added through the new product coverage

2 provisions under 20, it's going to be much cleaner

3 from a practical standpoint to add a separate

4 regulatory definition for non-compressor based

5 refrigerators, freezers, and refrigerator freezers

6 because they wouldn't automatically be triggered

7 under the same schedule and everything else. With

8 that, I think people might want to think about this a

9 little bit.

10 MR. RAMIREZ: Yes. So, let's do this,

11 let's continue with our discussion on the scheduling. 

12 And then once we just get some dates out there, some

13 tentative dates then let's call it a day after that. 

14 And then we'll come back tomorrow and pick up with

15 that and where we left off. Jennifer?

16 MS. CLEARY: Jen Cleary.

17 Can you just explain again why they

18 wouldn't trigger the same look back? I don't get it.

19 MS. ARMSTRONG: So, we believe we need to

20 add coverage under new product coverage at 20, right,

21 and so that in and of itself would set up a new

22 schedule for these products themselves based on the
ASRAC Miscellaneous Refrigeration Working Group Meeting

May 4, 2015

202-347-3700 Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. 866-928-6509

Page 226

1 issuance of the final rule, et cetera, et cetera.

2 MS. CLEARY: So, the look back is based on

3 the coverage determination, not on the setting of

4 standards? Like you couldn't include it in the same

5 rulemaking?

6 MS. ARMSTRONG: So, it's going to

7 dependent upon how this committee ultimately -- the

8 look back is going to be kicked to the final rules,

9 right, that's how the look back works.

10 MS. CLEARY: Right. So, theoretically

11 then, if you did include in the regulatory definition

12 and address them in the same rulemaking then the look

13 back would be the same.

14 MS. ARMSTRONG: Except for I don't think

15 this is a -- you could find a way to harmonize the

16 schedules. You're not negotiating standards for

17 refrigerators, freezers, and refrigerator freezers

18 here today, at least compressor-based systems. I

19 think from our perspective, it's cleaner to do it

20 separately. And to the extent you want to align the

21 schedules, that's fine. There is some question about

22 whether we can have a regulatory definition that's
ASRAC Miscellaneous Refrigeration Working Group Meeting

May 4, 2015

202-347-3700 Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. 866-928-6509

Page 227

1 broader than our statutory authority under our

2 definitions. So, there's concern there. I think

3 there's a strong preference that we do not go there.

4 MS. CLEARY: So, I guess what we were

5 proposing is that this committee wouldn't set the

6 standards for non-compressor refrigerators during

7 this negotiation. That it would leave -- we would

8 recommend that that be included in the next

9 rulemaking for refrigerators and then it would just

10 happen there however that process goes forward there,

11 whether it's the rulemaking or negotiation.

12 MR. RAMIREZ: Charlie?

13 MR. HON: Is it also possible that we

14 would put a future date on it for regulation so that

15 it was in parallel with the existing standard?

16 MS. ARMSTRONG: So, I think you can get to

17 -- so, the answer is yes. I think you could ask DOE

18 to consider ^^^^ I think DOE came to the table with

19 the intention of negotiating those standards here

20 period, so I don't know if that matters around the

21 table.

22 MS. CLEARY: This is Jen since I don't see
ASRAC Miscellaneous Refrigeration Working Group Meeting

May 4, 2015

202-347-3700 Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. 866-928-6509

Page 228

1 anyone else talking.

2 I mean I guess this sort of addresses your

3 other question of, well, if now we're bucket jumping

4 and there might not be any products that fall here,

5 like what is there to negotiate now, but if we

6 include it in the other rulemaking then we can

7 address that in the technical analysis I would think.

8 MS. ARMSTRONG: So, I don't think the

9 bucket jumping has anything to do with non-compressor

10 based systems because our current coverage is only

11 compressor-based systems. So, clearly, the bucket

12 jumping would only be compressor-based systems. But

13 I mean to the extent there is any, and Bill seems to

14 think there's not any, which he may be spot on there. 

15 So, I think what we're really talking about is the

16 non-compressor based and how do they get lumped in. 

17 And for DOE it's separate coverage determination and

18 then regulatory definitions that flow down from that

19 for which this committee can create to make sense and

20 to the extent you also set up a schedule that aligns

21 with other things or you end up discussing the

22 standards and come up with an approach that makes
ASRAC Miscellaneous Refrigeration Working Group Meeting

May 4, 2015

202-347-3700 Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. 866-928-6509

Page 229

1 sense within the committee that's for discussion, but

2 I think for the first purpose is establishing

3 definitions it's much cleaner to keep them

4 separately. And I'm not sure we're not required to

5 anyway.

6 MR. BALLO: So, this is Tim.

7 And let me propose, in lieu of having no

8 standards apply until the refrigerator standards are

9 completed, that we would adopt potentially a phased

10 approach to these products whereby we apply the

11 existing refrigerator standards to them immediately

12 and then designate them as being subject to the

13 refrigerator standards that are set in the next

14 refrigerator rulemaking.

15 Ashley just left the room, but maybe

16 that's one way of setting these up so that they can

17 be coordinated with the refrigerator standards.

18 MR. RAMIREZ: Yes. And I do think we

19 probably need a little bit more time to think about

20 that and chew on it a little bit before we try to

21 nail down any type of final agreement on it.

22 So, is everyone okay with the idea of
ASRAC Miscellaneous Refrigeration Working Group Meeting

May 4, 2015

202-347-3700 Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. 866-928-6509

Page 230

1 continuing at least that portion of the discussion

2 first thing tomorrow? Everyone good with that? All

3 right, then as far as dates go --

4 MS. HOFFMAN: Yes, we're going try because

5 we're looking for four meetings of two days each over

6 the next months -- several months through August. 

7 So, a couple of dates I wanted to throw out June 10

8 or 11th -- June 10 and 11th? June 11 and 12th,

9 sorry. June 11 and 12th? So, think about June 11

10 and 12th, okay. I have others in June.

11 MR. RAMIREZ: And you know what, the other

12 thing to think about tonight is the possibility of

13 like say, for example, 11th and 12th if it would be a

14 little easier to have the first meeting start a

15 little later to allow some folks to just -- some

16 folks, not all, but some folks fly in early that

17 morning, do the meetings starting late morning, maybe

18 even go a little bit later into the evening, and then

19 finishing 3:00 o'clock or so the next day to allow

20 you to fly out the next day. So, for some folks it

21 could chop of one night's hotel stay.

22 MS. HOFFMAN: I have another one, June 15
ASRAC Miscellaneous Refrigeration Working Group Meeting

May 4, 2015

202-347-3700 Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. 866-928-6509

Page 231

1 and 16th. No good. 16th and 17th. Sorry, the 16th

2 and 17th. Yes?

3 MR. HON: Charlie Hon.

4 ASRAC parent committee has a meeting on

5 the 17th, so 18th and 19th would be viable and the

6 15th and the 16th would be viable.

7 MS. HOFFMAN: Okay, so let's just look at

8 the 18th and 19th.

9 MR. RAMIREZ: We're gone.

10 MS. HOFFMAN: That doesn't work for us. 

11 Okay, July 9 and 10th or 8th and 9th?

12 MR. RAMIREZ: Before we jump to July, do

13 you all have a conference at the end of June?

14 MS. HOFFMAN: A trade association that

15 many of you would be at?

16 MR. RAMIREZ: Do you want to try to link

17 something up with that? I think it's in Atlanta.

18 MR. HON: Charlie Hon.

19 There's already three or four things

20 linked up to it, so I'm there three days before. 

21 ASRAC goes from Saturday through Wednesday, and then

22 the Fourth of July weekend you're already at the
ASRAC Miscellaneous Refrigeration Working Group Meeting

May 4, 2015

202-347-3700 Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. 866-928-6509

Page 232

1 first of July.

2 MS. HOFFMAN: Okay, we tried. Okay, July

3 8 and 9th that's the week after the holiday. Okay,

4 Charlie.

5 MR. HON: I'm in Europe on another set of

6 meetings.

7 MS. HOFFMAN: How about July 14 and 15th?

8 MR. HON: I can't make that. I could make

9 the ninth.

10 MS. HOFFMAN: How about 15th and 16th,

11 that's a Wednesday/Thursday? Can you do that, July

12 15 and 16th?

13 MR. HON: If I arrive late on the 15th. 

14 I've got something the 14th.

15 MR. RAMIREZ: Yes, we could discuss that,

16 right? We could discuss about it a little bit later.

17 MS. HOFFMAN: Okay, but July 15 and 16th?

18 MR. HON: I could certainly do that

19 remotely 100 percent and start early.

20 MS. HOFFMAN: Okay, so July 15 and 16th. 

21 August 10 and 11th or 11th and 12th? 11th and 12th

22 is better? Okay, August 11 and 12th. And then I
ASRAC Miscellaneous Refrigeration Working Group Meeting

May 4, 2015

202-347-3700 Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. 866-928-6509

Page 233

1 threw in an August 18 and 19th if we needed it

2 because we've got the 31st as the deadline, August 18

3 and 19th.

4 So, we've given you, let's see, one, two,

5 three, four, five dates instead of four, but June 11

6 and 12th.

7 MR. HAGERMAN: Is there any reason why

8 we're waiting until June 11 for the next meeting?

9 MS. HOFFMAN: No.

10 MR. HAGERMAN: Could we do like 27th,

11 28th, and 29th?

12 MS. HOFFMAN: Of May?

13 MR. HAGERMAN: Of May, to Jennifer's

14 earlier point there's usually less analysis and more

15 talking during this early stuff. And just keep in

16 mind too -- Dick just said he couldn't make the 28th

17 -- there's always an option to call in, right, so

18 just keep that in mind.

19 MR. RAMIREZ: Dick, would a call on the

20 28th?

21 MR. TOPPING: Yes, I mean I could call in.

22 MR. RAMIREZ: Then the 27th and 28th?
ASRAC Miscellaneous Refrigeration Working Group Meeting

May 4, 2015

202-347-3700 Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. 866-928-6509

Page 234

1 MS. HOFFMAN: So, we're looking at the

2 27th and 28th of May. We have June 11 and 12th. We

3 have July 8 and 9th, July 15 and 16th, August 11 and

4 12th, and August 18 and 19th. We're not going to

5 pick all of them.

6 MR. RAMIREZ: Right. So, of those dates,

7 we'll lock three of those in.

8 MS. HOFFMAN: Jen.

9 MS. CLEARY: I don't need this on the

10 record.

11 MS. HOFFMAN: We can go off the record. 

12 Thank you.

13 (Whereupon, the meeting was adjourned at

14 4:23 p.m.)

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22
ASRAC Miscellaneous Refrigeration Working Group Meeting

May 4, 2015

202-347-3700 Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. 866-928-6509

Page 235

A

A-1 161:20

a.m 1:11 3:2

ability 71:7 179:4

205:18 206:6

able 21:7 24:10 56:8

67:10 73:9 87:1

93:14 106:5 120:8

120:13 148:12

157:20 159:17

160:11,17 162:9

169:22 173:1

178:13 180:20

183:13 184:16

190:16,20 200:2

203:19 224:16

absence 58:20

Absolutely 28:1

121:8

absorption 52:11,17

52:19,21 53:2

61:15 62:6 65:11

218:10

abstain 56:21 59:13

60:22 65:19

abstained 58:22

abstaining 56:22

61:2

abstains 59:7

accelerate 5:20

accelerated 24:18

acceptable 34:10,18

58:4,21 59:1,2

70:12 82:9

accommodate 78:19

accomplish 168:15

168:16 172:6

179:13 195:14

account 153:1 176:5

183:10

accounting 180:18

accurate 164:6

accurately 81:22

achieve 169:22

173:2

acid 166:9

acknowledge

188:22

acknowledged

180:16 210:8

acknowledgement

202:3 222:6,17

acknowledging

179:19

act 8:4 19:15 21:11

21:17 26:11,11

32:9 180:20

action 118:13

127:16

actions 112:12

122:17

activities 3:6

activity 104:2

actual 64:9 113:4

163:3 175:15

181:17 183:19,20

185:17 195:12

209:5 212:15

ad 135:4

add 25:22 45:22

52:4 53:9 80:4

81:2,3 85:14 96:2

112:13 140:22

162:3 168:11,16

199:11 217:5,21

217:22 220:1

225:3,20

added 89:15 101:14

102:6 167:17

181:6 196:13

225:1

adding 46:8 160:2

160:13 163:3,5,8

190:15 212:7

addition 91:8 184:4

additional 55:15

142:2 151:12

160:8 180:13

183:5 192:13

207:18

address 80:7 173:17

226:12 228:7

addressed 160:21

addresses 228:2

adds 216:12

adept 207:21

adequate 166:7,19

167:6 191:17

adjourned 234:13

adjust 152:11

adjusted 153:1

adjustment 175:17

175:20 176:4

Administrative

19:15 21:11

admirably 167:1

admit 209:8

adopt 21:5 229:9

ADR 19:18

advance 118:21

119:21 120:12,12

120:18 122:8

adverse 112:12

127:16

advice 81:11

advisor 11:17 12:17

advisory 16:2 17:17

17:18,20 25:5

advocacy 11:7

advocate 10:22

advocates 5:15 8:1

affect 152:21 169:3

afraid 196:22

agencies 19:16

agency 19:9 20:14

21:4,5,6 174:4

agenda 4:17 29:7

78:18 79:13

118:14 128:20

agendas 118:14,21

119:20

ago 169:20

agree 3:21 33:13

34:10,12,13,18,20

36:9 38:5,13

40:10 43:13 48:11

48:14 61:4 67:8

68:20 70:12 71:5

71:22 75:12 81:7

86:8 109:4 112:7

112:7 121:22

122:13 135:10,11

144:8,11,16 148:5

171:1 173:21

174:10,21 181:18

193:13 204:4

211:4 216:20

218:17,19,20

222:9,17,19

agreeable 202:1

agreed 24:7 54:19

80:13 81:22

118:12

agreeing 23:17

65:16

agreement 20:10

22:1,1,2 24:9

26:21 36:22 37:4

53:15 65:16 67:14

69:10 75:6 88:21

112:3 151:2 157:5

157:21 229:21

agreements 54:16

AHAM 2:13 28:10

28:19 49:17

136:22 144:10

155:3 156:7

162:12 194:2

195:2

ahead 15:19 16:1

92:21 115:11

aid 118:17

aimed 162:15

air 8:4 130:22

164:14

align 219:14 226:20

aligns 228:20

allow 36:6 37:22

38:1 42:3 70:20

94:8,16,16 95:18

96:7 138:18 139:5

208:1 230:15,19

allowed 96:16

allowing 92:15

95:12

alluded 54:22

alternate 32:14 70:9

70:9,13,21 71:1,6

72:3,16 73:1,13

85:7,21 86:3 87:9

88:2,5 89:12

92:13,14,16 93:2

96:11

alternates 70:8,12

70:15 71:15,20,21

71:22 72:18 73:7

73:8 84:17,21,22

85:4,15 86:15

87:6,13,16 88:1,2

89:12,15

alternates' 89:10

alternating 216:4

alternative 19:18

34:2 37:14 63:10

112:5 210:21

Alternatively 63:4

alternatives 33:19

88:20

altogether 182:2

ambient 141:7

158:14 159:9,13

159:19,21,21

160:3 161:13

162:7,11 163:2,21

163:22 167:19

169:22 170:5

172:7 173:3,5

175:3 176:1

179:17,18 180:11

180:18 181:5,12

181:17,19 182:3

183:2,2,10 185:5

187:19 191:9

197:9 200:3,10

210:5 211:9

ambiguity 177:10

amenable 201:17

amend 54:14,19

102:1 140:16,18

218:7

amended 141:4,5

142:18 202:2

219:16,17

amending 131:14

218:9

amendment 87:3

amendments

140:17

America 2:20 9:12

46:13 47:1 49:7

54:4 148:4

American 7:6,10

amount 8:2 27:8

61:3,5

amplify 215:10

analogous 149:16

analyses 30:1

analysis 12:22 13:1

13:2,8 22:11,14

27:21 28:17 29:13

29:16 55:10 105:6

105:8,10 119:4,13

121:10,12,15,17

124:8,14 149:1,3

149:7,20 152:21

152:22 153:12

154:21 166:20

175:14 217:16

220:7 228:7

233:14

ANARF1 11:15

and/or 51:5 102:12

animal 182:2

ANSI 138:19

answer 48:13 87:18

110:11 155:15

177:5,10,20

185:21 193:3

194:5 215:17

223:7,13,21

224:15 227:17

anticipate 153:17

anticipating 93:14

108:15

anybody 32:10

52:20 53:4,6

82:18 88:10 101:4

112:6 183:16

anyway 229:5

apologize 106:8
ASRAC Miscellaneous Refrigeration Working Group Meeting

May 4, 2015

202-347-3700 Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. 866-928-6509

Page 236

177:7

Appeals 13:17

appear 100:15

Appearances 2:1

appeared 79:8

appearing 23:16

Appendix 161:20

appliance 2:12,16

10:12 11:6 12:8

17:17,20 143:16

appliances 11:8,12

71:4 137:16 153:4

180:7

applicable 216:18

applied 9:9 197:11

198:22

applies 167:21

209:15

apply 89:11 114:6

127:10 156:16

176:4 186:22

216:21 229:8,10

applying 175:17,19

appoint 70:22 73:13

98:20 99:3

appointed 87:7

appreciate 3:16,17

106:9

approach 54:1 65:7

161:11,20 195:5

228:22 229:10

appropriate 38:5,16

55:21 57:1,8

99:11 107:17

140:9 141:8

172:10

approval 87:8 88:5

128:13

approve 37:2 87:15

89:19 92:18

approved 38:1

approximately

197:13 199:3

arbitrary 140:1

168:12 170:21

171:1

ARCSA 191:12

area 8:19 12:8

75:14 143:8 146:5

areas 53:22 54:6

127:17 157:5

Armstrong 14:7,7

171:5 178:16,16

181:8 183:16

187:4,12,21 188:9

188:13,15 189:14

190:2,6 191:1,20

193:5,11 194:12

209:18 211:10,19

212:1,10,12,16,21

216:20 217:11

218:12 219:5

220:8 221:4

223:16 224:14

225:19 226:6,14

227:16 228:8

arrangement 12:7

arrive 75:15 232:13

ASAP 2:17

Ashley 14:7 171:5

178:12,16 183:17

187:22 191:1

192:19 194:12

207:20 211:10

215:16 224:13

229:15

asked 45:10 76:4

119:14

asking 25:14 37:15

38:14 45:15,18

154:17 190:10,11

193:6,8,9 202:19

202:20 217:1

219:19 220:12

aspects 157:21

ASRAC 1:2 3:7,19

10:6 17:10,12,12

17:17,18 18:2,2,8

18:19,22 21:7

28:3 86:13,14,21

99:22 100:4

101:10 105:17

108:2 231:4,21

assignments 119:3

119:7

assist 22:9

assistance 156:9

associated 50:18

152:15 201:5

association 2:12

10:12 120:21

231:14

assume 70:10 93:12

199:16

assuming 73:12

76:11 80:16

assumption 64:16

147:8

asterisk 213:5

Atlanta 231:17

attempt 79:18

attend 53:2

attendance 90:3

attending 60:21

attention 35:19

106:4

attorney 7:22

attributes 192:8

194:18

August 5:20 26:22

99:20,20 100:4,5

100:8 125:8 230:6

232:21,22 233:1,2

234:3,4

Australia 159:15

authority 227:1

auto 150:15,18,20

automatic 150:16

150:17,18,20

automatically 133:9

225:6

available 24:16,20

70:22 71:9 117:11

151:22

Avenue 1:8

average 9:8 164:15

avoid 136:2 138:20

aware 24:4 149:18

Awareness 2:16

11:6

awful 103:16

B

B 90:4,5 91:2 97:13

98:3,6,9,9

back 6:5 10:8 12:19

12:20 13:10 14:17

15:19 16:5,15

25:6,13 27:20

35:9,13,15 36:3,4

55:20 56:2,3,3,8

56:16 67:17 68:13

70:7,14 76:9 81:2

82:5 104:10,12,20

111:2 117:21

118:7 124:21

126:1,5,7 134:11

145:17,21 150:13

154:10 155:15

158:7 159:12

161:11,13 171:3

172:13 175:20

176:20 177:9

178:4,8 187:21

197:10 198:5

204:19 205:4

213:4 215:18

217:19 219:6

220:16 221:3

224:2 225:14,18

226:2,8,9,13

background 4:22

8:4 155:10 166:4

backs 224:20

backslide 202:21

backsliding 203:17

204:1,6,14 205:1

205:1,10 206:21

206:22 207:9

208:14,20,21

backtrack 127:5

bad 106:7,21,22,22

Ballo 2:10 7:21,21

40:18 70:16 89:6

94:2,7,13 105:2,2

114:12,12 117:15

147:14 172:4

173:8 174:2

202:19 204:20

208:20 216:9

217:8 218:6 229:6

Baras 4:4

base 27:10 217:2

based 115:18

151:13 152:3

154:20 158:12

166:1 217:6

219:10 221:8

224:18,21 225:4

225:22 226:2

228:10,16

baseline 57:19

basic 133:10 139:11

basically 19:16 20:8

20:17 21:3,12,16

22:9 23:16,22

29:7 33:8 66:18

67:1 125:19 139:4

140:20 170:3

basis 71:16 103:13

152:13 172:2

batch 148:11

beat 222:10

bedrock 167:4

beginning 74:3

124:13

behave 5:10

believe 43:22 45:13

51:7 53:3 88:16

125:17 138:21

172:9 194:20,22

207:1 210:13

223:19 224:7

225:19

bellwether 167:4

belong 147:22

176:18

belongs 89:9

beneficial 33:3

benefits 142:15

Berkeley 13:7

best 22:13,13,14

23:17 68:12,12

124:16 141:5

173:13 177:9

207:2,3,3,12

210:22 220:14

better 15:7 20:15

43:17 79:16 99:1

131:17 134:20

141:11 152:2

156:10 175:21

176:18 178:6

201:19 207:11

224:13 232:22

beverage 8:12

130:12

beyond 24:3

big 13:22 43:14

101:10 131:7

138:16 140:20

143:8 146:5

biggest 44:9

Bill 2:11 11:11 45:8

45:9 49:22 52:8

67:2,4,5 71:4 90:6

95:4 96:3,13

100:12 107:1,2

137:14,15 143:11

143:13 144:11,16

153:3,4,16 158:20

159:7 161:17

164:7,9 165:12

169:1 170:3 180:3

180:6 183:8

189:16,20 192:5

196:19,21 198:9

198:14 199:13

200:16 211:2,3,16

222:3,4 228:13

Billings 12:17

bin 131:2,3 150:9

bins 150:11

bit 4:22 8:19 25:12

25:17 26:16 28:17

32:22 33:21 35:22

36:1 42:9 43:20

50:22 55:3 70:8

72:2 78:18 96:10

118:7 146:8
ASRAC Miscellaneous Refrigeration Working Group Meeting

May 4, 2015

202-347-3700 Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. 866-928-6509

Page 237

147:16 156:10

158:18 164:12

166:9 177:22

178:18 208:16

209:8 225:9

229:19,20 230:18

232:16

bite 97:22

block 34:12,13,20

Blockers 34:1

blocking 37:13

board 31:9

bobbing 138:6

202:7

body 22:17 25:8

bogged 67:11

boilerplate 30:22

Boswell 13:16,16

brains 57:5

brand 45:11,17

154:6

branding 47:9,22

brass 164:13

break 14:19 15:4,6

17:6 22:19 55:22

56:1,7 57:5,12

110:22 155:13

178:1 223:21

breaker 142:20

breaking 15:2

129:16

breaks 14:16,21

17:3 36:11

Brenda 2:9

brief 122:21

briefed 73:9

briefing 3:12 31:6

bright 195:4

bring 4:12 57:9,11

81:5 145:22

161:11

bringing 86:21

185:9

broad 43:16

broader 220:10

227:1

broken 155:14

brought 57:13

135:14 142:6

163:20 191:16

205:22 208:19

Brown 2:11 11:11

11:11 45:9,9,15

49:22,22 52:8,8

52:16 67:5 71:4,4

90:6,6 95:4,10

96:3,13 100:13,19

101:3,7 107:2,8

137:15,15 143:13

143:13 153:4,4,16

153:16,20 154:5

154:14 158:20

159:7,7 161:17,17

164:9,9 165:12

169:1,1,5,9,14

170:3,4,7,14

180:6,6 183:8

189:20 190:4,8

191:11 196:21,21

198:14,14,18,21

200:16 211:3,16

211:21 222:4,4

bucket 157:10

191:6 204:6,7

206:11 208:15

213:5 222:7,9,17

222:20,20 223:12

228:3,9,11

buckets 201:14

205:16,17 206:17

213:21,21

build 12:12 173:11

184:14 221:18,20

221:21

building 1:7 125:16

146:22

built-in 12:10

150:15,16 151:9

156:2,13,18

built-in/freestandi...

156:1

bullet 88:7,10 89:10

89:14,15 91:7,10

96:4,5,6 105:4

112:16 115:8

123:10 155:21

208:5 222:6,9

223:6,6,9,14

bullets 84:13,20

87:3 89:18,20,21

91:5,15 93:8 97:9

97:10 98:4,13

101:22 104:1

108:9,10 109:6,9

111:16 112:10,17

112:19,21 116:11

116:16,20 117:4,5

122:11 123:4

128:14

bumped 185:12,22

bunch 116:2

burden 160:13

163:8 165:18

168:17 180:9

182:20 184:5

193:14 195:8

burdens 182:1

burdensome 195:10

business 2:11 16:22

69:22 72:19,22

75:16 77:3,13

79:18 81:21

busy 5:12,14

Butler 2:7 30:8,8

102:13,13 103:4,4

103:12 104:14,14

109:21,21 155:12

155:17 177:2,4,4

185:21 198:17,20

200:14,20 203:8

204:7 209:13

213:14 216:1

224:4,4

button 95:22

buy 32:10 45:17

C

C 3:1 90:4,5 91:2

97:14

C1 98:12 99:15

C300 11:16

cabinet 130:22

131:3 132:1,1,18

133:1,1,8 151:8

169:19,20,21

182:17 183:15

185:4,12 186:22

187:2 201:16

202:5 203:6 204:9

206:11 216:7

cabinet's 206:10

cabinets 44:17,21

46:3,14,16 47:1,1

47:6 48:16,21

49:2,7,14,21 50:1

50:5,7 52:18 65:4

131:8,21 136:16

143:6 144:20

147:1 149:7 151:4

151:7,7 155:22

157:13,22 159:14

168:22 169:13

171:16 172:8

175:3,4,13 176:8

179:2 185:19

187:17 189:1

197:21 199:14

204:11,22 210:15

213:11,22 217:7

221:10

cafeteria 125:13,15

125:18,18,21

calculation 172:15

calendars 123:21

125:5

California 4:14

10:21 11:1 65:3

call 14:15,16,17

33:22 36:15 75:17

80:15 90:16

160:11 178:9

199:12 204:7

207:10 210:17

225:13 233:17,19

233:21

called 17:17 50:8

130:13 154:1

calling 36:13 50:6

90:8 173:14

203:12

camping 14:2

Canadian 11:16

cap 54:7

capability 158:12

184:8 189:7 192:3

201:11

capable 132:3,21

165:8 167:18

182:11 188:16

191:7 193:19

194:21,22 195:1

196:6 198:10

201:4 210:3

211:19

capacity 166:7

222:1

capture 122:15,20

122:21 177:22

181:5 209:3

captures 15:10

card 16:22 73:15

care 17:1 21:20

217:21

careful 58:14

carefully 71:17,18

166:14

carrier 96:8

case 6:19 18:5,12

35:14 56:20 66:14

85:19 88:3 92:16

98:21 103:10

104:7,21 187:10

189:9 204:2

cases 108:20

catch 114:11

categories 10:5 43:9

44:17 45:1,1

46:21 47:19 49:20

133:21 135:7,8

140:9,20 153:6

156:5 172:1

206:22

categorize 46:12

categorized 177:16

category 19:4 49:4

130:4,16 136:13

141:3,12 142:18

148:1,15 153:6,18

153:21,22 154:3,4

154:6,13 188:12

189:12 217:4

caucus 40:11

cause 5:15 40:1

168:21 202:3,12

202:14 215:10

222:6,17

causing 166:20

198:1

caveats 95:15

cellar 7:10,16 152:3

152:6

cellars 46:15

cellular 132:13

centers 8:12

cents 207:8

certain 26:17 37:5

39:2 44:8 61:3,5

71:20 114:17

140:19 160:6,10

172:21 194:16

201:13 208:1

210:4

certainly 71:6

120:19 154:14

162:4 165:17

183:12 184:13

196:22 197:2

222:1 232:18

certification 141:22

203:7

certifications

141:20

certified 133:10

139:11 203:10

certify 203:9,13

certifying 203:3

cetera 20:22 24:16

79:21 105:8 226:1

226:1

chains 206:12
ASRAC Miscellaneous Refrigeration Working Group Meeting

May 4, 2015

202-347-3700 Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. 866-928-6509

Page 238

chair 22:7

challenge 48:11

112:14 113:3

115:7

challenged 134:16

134:19

challenging 115:16

chance 32:13

change 53:22

111:15 122:15

135:17 136:1

168:5,9 171:14

188:1 191:15

201:12,13,19

202:11,13 210:12

213:8 214:19,21

218:21

changed 80:8

changes 54:18 81:5

87:16 91:10 99:12

100:6 114:7

117:14 123:8

128:17 158:10

166:12 209:15

changing 137:7

167:6,15 184:11

205:5 208:6

characteristics

130:18

characterized

188:18,19

Charles 2:15

Charlie 10:3 43:1

49:13 51:9,13

57:22 58:1 64:11

65:10 73:11 79:22

86:11 89:2 92:9

92:11 100:7

105:14 108:1

130:10 134:9,14

135:14,15 136:6,9

136:11 137:1,11

138:1,22 139:1

141:13,14 142:4

155:19 189:4

196:19 197:16

205:14 207:15

210:16 221:11,12

221:13 227:12

231:3,18 232:4

chart 215:14,15

chartered 17:19

chatter 15:11

check 36:20 41:22

55:16 57:21 69:20

73:21 92:4 142:21

143:3,6 208:12

209:5 220:15,21

223:5

checked 91:19

checking 36:19

cherry 5:6

chew 229:20

Chicago 4:11

children 21:14

chillers 8:12 65:3

chime 42:22

China 7:12,17

chocolates 136:19

choice 33:10

choose 159:20

chop 230:21

chose 221:21

Chris 10:20 43:12

circulate 73:4

circumstance 88:4

89:12

circumstances 85:4

85:6,20 89:9 97:3

clarification 27:17

28:7 51:1 52:3

53:11 64:13 76:15

91:1 93:11 114:13

138:18 167:17

171:17 196:13

207:11 209:10

212:4 223:4

clarifications

141:10

clarify 43:2 59:4

67:3 75:20 77:11

78:1 89:10 98:1

178:21 205:17

207:2

clarity 77:6 90:7

194:11

Clary 28:10

class 85:22 149:9,15

152:15 153:7,8,13

154:18 168:8

169:10,11 174:1,2

176:18 180:12

220:6 224:8

classes 146:6,13,19

148:17 149:2,6,16

149:17,19 150:2

150:14,22 151:3,3

151:5,13,17,19,21

152:2,11,13,18,20

156:1,11,15 218:2

classified 142:2

163:8

classify 142:1

Clean 8:4

cleaner 217:22

224:12 225:2

226:19 229:3

clear 8:7 10:14,18

11:3 20:20 35:20

37:8,11 51:4

58:16 60:12 61:3

65:18 76:19 77:17

94:4 106:14 112:2

113:19 115:5

119:5 127:6,10

135:7 151:15

152:5,18 155:14

182:22 192:3

193:16 196:18

213:11

clearer 20:15 61:6

131:16 201:18

clearly 205:19

228:11

Cleary 2:12 10:11

10:11 28:10,19,19

38:19,22,22 44:5

44:6 49:17,17

72:5,9 74:17,17

75:10 76:10,10

78:5,5 83:7,7,19

86:6 87:20,20

92:1 95:16,16

96:1,17,17,22,22

102:21 108:12

109:2 110:12

114:4,4 118:6,22

119:15 120:1,1,15

120:19 121:9

123:22 124:6

136:22,22 138:9,9

144:10,10 155:3,3

156:6,6 157:6,6

162:12,12 163:15

164:1 167:9,9

173:20,20 174:9,9

183:17 192:17,17

193:7,7 194:2,2

195:2,2 202:9,9

208:7,13 213:6,6

215:3 218:17

219:18 225:16,16

226:2,10 227:4,22

234:9

Cleary's 45:22

climate 195:6

close 72:19,22

110:21

closed 162:6

closer 104:8 176:3

198:8 202:8

co-facilitating 4:10

coach 22:8

code 134:16 136:4

Codes 10:21

coffee 17:9

Cohen 62:8,8 64:18

64:18 155:13

cold 206:5

colleague 4:11

colleagues 156:9

column 176:22

come 4:5 18:11,12

18:22 22:10 25:6

25:18 31:6 36:3

55:3,11 56:2,2

70:21 81:2 97:18

101:5 104:10,12

104:20 106:1

111:2 115:13

121:22 124:21

126:5 135:7 147:8

155:15 178:4

198:5 221:2

225:14 228:22

comes 27:8 29:14

102:11 163:4

172:13 186:9

201:19

comfort 69:20 72:15

comfortable 31:12

33:7 42:14 57:17

57:19 82:17

142:22 143:5

coming 4:1 7:3 8:3

8:13 12:4 22:11

79:21 92:13

comment 20:12

63:16 64:1 76:11

90:15 113:10

124:13 138:21

139:13 140:2

147:11 156:8

commented 138:17

139:20 140:4

151:4,20 155:21

commenter 140:15

commenting 106:21

comments 10:16

20:13,19 53:4

82:12 83:17 84:20

90:14 98:5 112:11

112:11 113:2

114:5 115:2

116:11 127:15,16

133:14,15,20

134:5,22 138:13

140:21 146:18

148:16 150:22

151:1,11 154:6

155:2,19 158:8

175:5 208:14

commercial 11:8

138:4 139:4 141:6

141:18 148:9

commercial-size

9:14,15

Commission 141:17

commit 121:11

committed 88:15

committee 10:6,8,9

11:18 17:17,18

26:12 28:3,15

54:7 66:16 71:18

74:7 77:21 80:2

80:12 101:1,9

105:17 107:6,13

159:10 217:18

218:15 219:11

226:7 227:5

228:19 229:1

231:4

committees 26:15

67:7

common 33:4

130:10 194:4

communicate

122:17

compact 150:18,19

151:8 156:13,19

companies 12:11

47:16,17,17 48:7

48:8 51:4 61:21

62:5 207:20

company 9:13 12:6

12:8 45:16,17

47:10 50:19 89:4

139:7

compared 173:4

185:17

compartment 132:3

132:21 139:21

141:8 152:3,4,7

158:13 160:9

161:12,14 164:15

165:8 167:18

170:8,10 172:20

173:2 185:15

188:17 191:8

196:7,15 198:10
ASRAC Miscellaneous Refrigeration Working Group Meeting

May 4, 2015

202-347-3700 Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. 866-928-6509

Page 239

compartments

132:13,14 160:7

165:11

compelled 140:3

compete 61:20

competition 29:20

compile 29:16

complete 30:4 74:6

completed 229:9

completely 17:19

34:10,18 143:19

143:20 144:4

159:14 168:12

compliance 8:20,21

complicated 34:16

157:8

comply 202:16

complying 202:15

componentry 189:8

compression 46:4

47:6 48:16 49:14

49:20 50:1,4,10

65:5 149:10

154:19 175:2

199:20 222:8,16

compressor 47:2

48:20 49:3,5,8

132:19 133:3

137:22 189:12

199:18 211:8

216:6

compressor-based

10:13 130:20

137:20 216:22

218:4,9 219:9

226:18 228:11,12

compressorized

46:14

compressors 189:8

comprises 132:12

conceivably 188:2

191:6

concept 50:6 86:8

94:22 158:14

concepts 94:20

concern 42:17

61:14 70:18 74:18

75:13,16 85:10

105:20 120:21

127:11 158:10

159:4 166:18

167:5 172:19

173:6 176:7 197:3

202:11 209:4

227:2

concerned 38:20

66:12 75:2 92:12

137:6 175:1

concerns 37:14

106:2 151:14,16

208:20 219:15

Conciliation 2:4,5

4:10 19:10

concluded 175:14

concluding 27:11

conclusion 198:6

concrete 194:18

condensed 117:9

condenser 132:20

133:3 216:6

condition 181:19

186:2 187:7,8

189:16 191:9

conditioned 162:20

conditions 171:10

179:5,11,19

181:13,17,21

183:2,3 197:12,15

199:2,6 201:9

210:13 211:20

conduct 69:22

75:16 77:3 79:18

conducting 77:13

conference 231:13

conferred 224:6

confirm 52:7

conflict 13:15 19:12

21:15

confuse 196:18

confused 58:19

192:18 195:12

209:9

confusing 35:21

60:16 87:22 194:6

207:12

confusion 168:17

198:2

connected 167:21

connection 150:6

213:9

consensus 17:14

18:17 26:9,10,12

26:16 29:8 31:10

31:11 32:4,15,17

32:21 33:1,4,7,13

33:17 34:6,7,22

35:3,5,10 36:19

37:7,9,20,20,22

38:3,11,17 40:3

41:7,11,12 42:3

44:1 53:15,22

54:13,15 55:14,17

55:18 57:15 58:12

59:17,19 60:10,14

60:17 65:16 66:1

66:7 67:7 68:17

69:5,6,10 73:21

83:12 92:5 102:11

conservation 29:21

83:13,22

consider 63:1 71:15

166:12 172:2,11

174:16 221:18

227:18

consideration 92:6

184:10,18

considerations

184:5

considered 145:2

149:6,14,15,21

152:11 153:12

202:4 210:14

220:3

considering 144:19

202:17

consistent 10:19

138:3 168:10

171:21

constituents 24:6,10

constrained 216:14

constructive 4:2

consultants 12:20

Consulting 12:22

13:4

consults 57:7

consumed 176:10

consumer 130:4

131:10,18 133:5

139:15,22 140:7

141:6,16,17

142:14 152:14

156:20 162:16,18

163:3 166:21,22

183:19,20 189:19

196:10 199:13

200:8 205:20

210:6,7

consumer's 162:22

174:18

consumers 29:17

142:13 147:21

166:11 174:20,20

195:17,18 196:2,3

196:5,8

consumption

152:16 175:15,21

contact 73:7 121:1

contemplated 28:1

119:18

context 87:22 137:9

continual 166:4

continue 28:16 30:3

204:15 225:11

continuing 37:1

230:1

contribute 76:1

88:19 120:14

control 79:9

controlled 49:5

66:13

convened 26:2

convenience 130:12

130:13

convenient 130:11

conventional

154:18 175:7

conversation 82:7

135:18 143:7

178:5 198:1

conversations

197:20

converse 143:8

convince 193:13

cooking 12:10

cool 130:21 143:5

cooled 44:17,21

46:2,14,16,22

47:1,6 48:16,20

49:2,7,14,20 50:1

50:4,6,7 65:4

130:22 131:8,21

132:1 133:1,1,8

144:19 147:1

149:7,22 150:10

151:4,7,7 155:21

157:13,22 168:22

169:13 171:16

172:8 175:3,4,13

176:8 179:2

182:17 185:12,19

186:22 187:2,16

189:1 197:21

199:14 201:16

202:5 203:6 204:9

204:10,21 210:14

213:11,22 217:7

221:10

cooler 206:5,10,11

coolers 50:8

cooling 130:12

144:14

coordinated 229:17

copies 30:19

copy 82:11 198:9

copying 137:21

Corp 2:22

Corporation 8:11

8:16

correct 47:7 64:15

69:12 77:1 106:21

117:12 118:4

125:9 135:20,21

169:14 176:15,19

190:15 203:11

209:13 212:21

217:1

cost 29:18 189:10

189:11

cost-effective 11:1,3

11:10

counsel 3:15 30:7,9

62:9 64:19 155:5

203:18 219:4

counsel's 142:6

220:9,17 223:18

count 74:8

counted 26:6 76:4

counter 9:16 203:17

counterproductive

159:5

country 57:8 159:22

couple 9:16 14:14

41:2 51:1 62:10

62:13 108:7

134:11 135:9

179:16 230:7

course 24:8 25:15

46:3 105:1 129:12

129:17,22 205:3

court 15:9

cover 70:13 207:6

219:20

coverage 63:6

126:10 138:20

140:18 145:5

146:10 178:21

179:3,6 181:10

185:10 186:3,7

187:6 190:7,12

191:4 192:5,6

193:19 201:2,7

209:20 217:2,5,15

217:16,17,21,21

219:1,13,14,22

224:9 225:1,20,20

226:3 228:10,17

coverages 55:4

covered 62:15,15

63:2,12 139:14

142:8 153:10
ASRAC Miscellaneous Refrigeration Working Group Meeting

May 4, 2015

202-347-3700 Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. 866-928-6509

Page 240

160:18,19 161:5

170:9,10 179:7

186:5 197:17

202:6,14 207:6

209:16 213:20

216:12,13,18

217:4,13,22

224:21,22

covering 162:8

197:6 219:22

covers 140:12

crazy 116:2

create 153:22 224:7

228:19

creating 174:5

critical 5:8 6:1

145:11

cropping 106:12

cross 188:11

cube 148:11

curious 14:3 203:22

current 168:10

209:22 214:2

215:22 216:4,21

217:17 218:3

228:10

currently 74:7

110:1 153:10

169:5 171:18

188:18,18 202:14

202:15 213:20

216:12

cut 39:14

cute 192:19

cutoff 140:1 171:22

cutting 103:17

cycles 148:13

D

D 3:1 90:4,5 91:2

99:18 100:6,12,14

101:15,19

D.C 75:13

Dan 6:13,15 7:5,15

30:13,13 32:7

46:13 62:8 64:18

155:13

Dane 2:14 9:3,3

49:1,1 51:10,17

51:17 55:19 75:11

105:19 106:9

112:22 113:7,18

114:1 116:8

146:21 206:19

data 22:11,13 64:7

122:8 162:1

166:20 176:8

date 71:12,20 91:19

152:21 227:14

date's 91:21

dates 5:18 24:18

71:8 123:13,15

124:20 125:3

225:12,13 230:3,7

233:5 234:6

David 2:5 13:10,11

day 54:17 72:9 92:3

92:5 120:22 121:3

124:17,18 157:16

200:11 225:13

230:19,20

days 4:18 119:13

120:12,12 125:8

135:9 230:5

231:20

DC 1:9

dead 58:9

deadline 5:19 89:11

99:19 233:2

deal 9:13,14 19:13

21:15 56:2 70:8

79:16 106:11

122:2 145:22

dealing 19:12 125:2

214:10

decide 26:18 34:15

78:16 107:15

118:19

decided 142:8

decides 26:13

decision 33:9,11,12

34:11 66:18

decision-making

25:7 26:9

decisions 65:17

122:16,18

decline 66:22

decrease 184:16

dedicated 152:6

default 67:14,15

100:16

defer 40:16 134:3

146:7

define 26:10 41:7

62:17 135:6

152:17 190:6

192:20 214:8

219:1,19

defined 9:8,8 58:13

69:10 147:9

151:20 222:21

defines 21:12

196:16

defining 32:3

134:18 158:12

177:5 200:2 201:2

201:7 205:19

definitely 11:2

172:11 177:19

193:5 205:1,1

definition 26:14

49:4 55:4 60:13

131:13,15,17

132:14 137:17

138:17 142:17

143:5 144:21

145:2,7,7 147:4

153:15 154:15

155:7 165:7

167:15 168:5

171:12 173:10,11

173:12,15 177:1

177:12,12 179:1

182:7 185:2,11

186:6 187:16,20

190:3 191:16

200:22 201:11,19

202:1,12 203:5,10

203:14 205:5,7

208:3 209:4,11,15

209:22 210:22

214:20,21 215:20

215:22 216:10,17

218:3,22 219:2

220:1 224:9 225:4

226:11,22

definitional 158:10

definitions 6:1 8:6

9:7 25:19 126:11

128:21,22 129:2

129:10,22 135:7

135:12 140:11,16

141:3,4 146:10

150:2 151:2 165:9

171:16,18 173:17

174:5 187:5,5

207:3 218:2

220:10,11 224:17

227:2 228:18

229:3

defrost 150:16,17

150:19,20

degree 141:7 161:2

degrees 132:4,5,6

134:15 136:18,21

137:2 150:10,12

158:13 160:9,15

160:16 161:1,16

162:2,5,10,22

163:5 165:2,9,16

166:2,6 169:6,10

169:11 170:8,11

172:20 174:16

175:5,7,15,17

176:10 179:19

180:12,17,22

182:2 183:9,12,13

184:2,22 185:2

187:1,1 190:5,17

190:19,21 193:18

197:1,2,8,13,15

198:12,12 199:3,6

199:7,8 200:18,18

214:1 222:22

delay 79:7

delete 95:22

delta 188:6 193:12

193:15

denied 211:17

Department 1:1,6

2:1 3:4 8:8 13:14

28:17 108:4 179:9

dependent 226:7

depending 15:17

41:18 71:8 120:7

122:3 181:15

223:7,22

depends 39:16

187:4

deployed 193:21

dern 117:22

described 182:12

describing 207:21

descriptions 118:16

design 61:18 191:7

192:14 194:18,22

201:8 210:6,6,7

designate 87:14

229:12

designated 70:19

72:3,16 73:1

84:22 86:3

designed 71:17,18

133:9 139:16

194:8,14,16,20

210:2,2,3

designing 192:2

designs 191:16

desirability 62:12

desirable 64:9

desire 194:17

detail 121:18

detailed 108:12

118:14,15,21

119:20 121:9

158:3

details 44:2 61:18

156:22

determination

62:20 66:20

217:15 226:3

228:17

determinations

168:9

determine 63:8

99:10,10 100:21

101:2 107:17

128:4 162:15

180:11 190:3,12

191:5 193:19

determined 94:14

132:6 192:5,6,7

216:16

determines 100:14

determining 141:8

170:9 172:20

187:8

develop 12:12 18:5

55:8 209:2

developed 175:8

development 83:12

device 130:21

devices 130:11,12

130:13 163:12,13

diagram 130:2

142:21 143:10,10

143:12 176:21

dialogue 33:19 37:5

55:15 77:7

Dick 12:5 27:16

50:3 53:8 79:5

80:16 83:1 93:9

93:10 100:22

109:10 110:6,14

111:21 144:9

145:12,14 158:4,5

165:19,20 191:14

211:2 212:2,3

215:7,8 233:16,19

dictate 43:5

difference 141:22

188:3 221:17

different 19:14

26:13 29:13,16

33:2 34:5 38:4

40:22 43:9 57:7

58:22 62:18 63:3

63:20 67:9 75:1

85:7,20 95:15

96:4 107:5 115:14
ASRAC Miscellaneous Refrigeration Working Group Meeting

May 4, 2015

202-347-3700 Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. 866-928-6509

Page 241

139:16,19 140:7,8

141:19,21 143:16

143:20,20 144:1,4

144:13,15,21

147:17,19 149:10

150:1 156:4

159:14 164:12

167:10,13,20

168:5 170:2,4,14

170:16 172:1

174:1,2 175:3

176:17 178:1

179:3,14,22

181:10,14,17,21

182:2,4 188:10

197:20 201:11

211:9 216:16

218:21 223:8

differentiate 137:5

139:21 141:5,11

152:18

differentiation

182:18

differently 23:5

183:7 188:8

difficult 4:7

difficulty 195:3

dinner 206:1

direction 39:20

125:17

directly 105:16

185:22

director 11:12

disagree 39:4

216:10

disclosure 61:13

discovered 17:8

discuss 37:1 39:18

83:11 84:11

145:10 147:7

172:10 177:19

218:13 232:15,16

discussed 10:5

89:21 141:16

207:17

discussing 26:4 41:1

56:19 79:11

118:17 137:9

177:18 228:21

discussion 4:2 5:22

6:2 31:5 32:17

38:7,15 42:9,11

42:16 43:21 53:14

57:15,18 60:1

64:8 68:14 69:19

74:3 77:6 81:14

85:12 90:5 112:5

126:10 128:20

129:21 142:7

145:18 154:21

158:4 163:17

172:14 178:14,19

204:1,3,15 215:10

221:9 225:11

229:1 230:1

discussions 85:2

104:11

disparity 39:11

dispensing 133:12

133:13

dispute 19:15,18

disputes 19:11

dissent 38:2,4,11,16

dissenters 42:3

dissenting 58:21

66:13,17

distinction 10:15

47:8 65:4 179:17

182:15

distinctly 143:16

distinguish 47:22

distinguishing 65:8

distributes 8:11

dive 138:14

divide 152:2

dividing 135:10,11

division 156:12

divisions 135:13

143:1 176:22

docket 37:11

doctrine 79:18

document 31:13

45:2 68:22 77:12

77:16,20 81:1,3

84:18 95:18 97:18

97:19 111:11

120:20 121:4

documented 180:1

DOE 2:7,8,9 11:2

12:3,17 14:8

16:11 17:16,19

18:8,14,19 20:2

27:21,22 28:7,14

50:7 53:1 54:9,21

55:8 62:9 64:13

64:14 99:21

100:16,20,21

101:6,14 103:5

105:4 107:16,16

109:13 113:8

115:9,10,13 124:6

129:7 137:18

138:3 142:3,10

143:21 144:1

149:6,14,15,18,21

150:1,14,21

151:11,20 152:10

152:17 153:11

155:5 158:11

160:19,20 161:6

161:10 165:4

168:18 170:18

172:11,12 176:7

177:4 178:17

186:3,10 187:22

191:1,15 192:20

192:21 194:9,12

195:13,15 198:16

201:5,22 203:3

205:3 209:19

211:22 216:12

219:3,19 223:19

224:5 227:17,18

228:17

DOE's 13:16 140:5

151:2,16 152:21

154:5 172:21

175:14 178:20

188:19 189:14

194:7 197:10,14

199:5 200:17,21

doing 32:12 122:8

160:2 162:14

163:8 195:20

209:22 213:8

215:21

Donuts 17:8 125:13

door 15:21 152:5

162:19 163:13

174:17 175:10

176:5 180:19,21

180:22 181:1,4

182:3 183:22

197:13 199:3,4,7

199:17 200:5,19

210:9

doors 162:5 163:4

183:14

double 195:8

doubts 33:18 196:6

downstairs 17:9

125:12

downstream 152:21

draft 20:10,11

25:19 26:14 77:21

draw 182:15,22

218:4

drink 206:5

drives 200:4

dropping 80:12

due 28:2

dummy 23:4

Dunkin 17:8 125:12

duty 19:22

E

E 3:1,1 99:18,19

100:7,12 101:16

101:19

earlier 55:1 64:3

136:7 233:14

early 125:7,7

230:16 232:19

233:15

Earth 7:21 40:18

70:16 89:6 94:2

105:2 114:12

117:15 147:14

172:4

Earthjustice 2:10

easier 44:15 230:14

easiest 125:15 126:3

easily 134:19

easy 157:22

eat 97:22 126:1

economic 13:8

29:17

Edison 2:19 10:21

13:18

edit 16:16 92:10

editing 69:3 110:6

111:15 126:21

209:10

editorial 108:21

educated 121:21

Edwards 2:9

effect 175:17

effective 22:22

189:10

effectively 140:18

206:3

effects 152:15

efficiency 8:1 9:21

11:1,7,10 43:6

207:7

efficient 20:15,20

189:6,11

eight 123:12

Eileen 4:4 17:13

44:12 77:13 79:1

81:7 82:5 118:4

170:17

Eileen's 45:6

either 34:8 70:2

77:10 130:19

132:4 145:6

167:13 189:10

either/or 29:3

elaborate 90:8

electric 2:19 13:19

41:3 46:4,15 47:6

47:15 48:6 52:19

53:20 61:15 62:6

62:18,19,20 63:1

63:5,11,13,17

65:5 130:21 132:2

132:20 140:12

142:7 151:6 173:1

175:2 185:18

186:22 190:22

218:10

electricity 216:4

electrics 46:9 52:10

55:5 142:8 149:9

222:13,19

elephant 47:14

97:22

elevated 173:4

Eleven 75:10

eliminate 94:6 95:1

95:5,10 158:2

else's 92:6

email 72:12,13

73:22 92:22 93:5

94:9 95:13 96:7

96:21

emails 79:20

emergency 92:17

Emily 75:21

employee 3:15

employment 12:7

encompass 182:9

183:5

encounter 166:8

energy 1:1,6 2:1 3:4

7:22 8:2 9:19,21

11:1,4,7,13,18,19

13:14 20:20 21:20

29:19,20 43:6

83:12,22 108:4

132:2,20 142:13

152:16 156:19

160:12 161:21

165:16 169:18

170:1 175:9,15

176:11 180:13

189:10 190:11

199:1 207:7 211:5

211:7

enforceability
ASRAC Miscellaneous Refrigeration Working Group Meeting

May 4, 2015

202-347-3700 Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. 866-928-6509

Page 242

201:18

enforced 8:8

enforcement 8:4

191:21 195:6

enforcing 200:22

209:20

engineering 13:1

134:20 189:6

enjoy 3:22 127:1

ensure 10:17 97:1

118:17 166:6,10

ensuring 8:4,8

entering 23:15

entire 118:10 129:3

environment

196:11 200:9

EPCA 29:9 155:7

216:15 219:1

equation 172:16

equipment 11:8

12:11 50:17 62:16

62:21 63:6 138:20

141:6 202:3

err 16:19

especially 13:20

75:2 121:9 140:13

141:21 195:5

218:18 221:21

essentially 147:18

176:12

establish 8:6 152:13

established 17:16

19:10 77:18 137:2

186:12

establishing 187:6

229:2

et 20:22 24:16 79:21

105:8 226:1,1

ethics 3:11,12 30:10

30:14 31:6 32:8

Europe 232:5

evaluating 166:5

evaluation 27:12

evening 230:18

event 18:17 85:5

eventual 14:3

eventually 16:8

everybody 3:3,12

6:17 10:20 15:15

16:12,17 23:8

42:10 43:11 57:18

60:13,16 67:7

71:13 73:4 82:16

85:17,17 96:12

97:16 119:8,11

121:21 123:21

133:5 135:3,4

everybody's 31:12

78:2 106:21

115:21

everyone's 33:9

36:22 72:15 78:11

164:20

exact 128:1 137:19

154:16

exactly 15:1 46:5,6

77:4 118:16 148:7

184:2 200:14

202:10 209:10

example 41:4 55:13

83:10 174:15

230:13

excellent 126:16

142:5 215:9

exception 161:3

excluded 224:9

excluding 133:10

139:11 216:5

exclusive 179:10

Excuse 44:12

221:13

exemption 139:5

exhausting 68:18

exist 163:2 164:19

212:6,10 221:20

existed 131:13

existing 131:14

145:7 149:16

151:18 153:8,11

153:18 154:3

199:19 219:9

222:8,10,16

227:15 229:11

exists 156:14

expand 156:21

217:1,20

expanded 19:13

expect 124:8 126:13

181:5 183:13

expectation 194:7

expectations 25:13

expected 83:21

expecting 174:21

expensive 75:14

expert 81:11

expertise 48:13 57:3

71:14,16 88:20

90:19

experts 22:11 71:19

98:21

explain 4:12 23:5

36:16 60:5,5

126:3 156:9

158:17 224:13

225:17

explaining 125:11

explicated 224:9

explicitly 101:3

explore 88:20

expressed 151:2

expressly 86:7

extends 132:5

extension 3:20 19:2

extent 7:12 63:16

64:3 193:6 219:8

226:20 228:13,20

extenuating 85:4,6

85:19 88:3 89:9

89:12 97:3

extra 197:5

extrapolate 161:13

extrapolating 162:1

extrapolation

161:11 170:12

eyes 114:10 147:21

F

F 2:21 222:2

face-to-face 70:2

Facilator 2:3

facilitate 22:17

78:22 204:3

facilitated 19:20

facilitator 21:13,17

31:21 117:9

facilitators 4:5

21:13 94:15

fact 63:12 166:2

174:16 196:12

factitious 109:12

factor 163:22

172:15 175:17,20

176:5

factors 29:12,21

163:16,20,21

200:4

Fahrenheit 136:18

136:21 141:7

150:10

fair 8:13 9:5,19,22

20:20 23:13 43:10

81:9 85:18 111:4

135:13 191:20

fairly 8:16 24:18

25:1 54:14 175:8

faith 27:1 115:21

116:1

fall 130:3,16 142:11

144:20 153:14

154:12 173:5

177:12 228:4

falling 153:17

189:11

falls 154:17

familiar 20:8 133:4

180:10

far 15:7 36:19 38:14

55:17 138:6 143:9

146:2 157:2

184:14 197:8

198:9 207:14

208:2 230:3

farther 104:8

fast 16:15 82:21

feature 152:14

160:3

features 181:6

federal 2:3,5 4:9

14:13 16:7 17:16

17:18 19:9 88:14

129:13 136:4

feedback 129:21

134:7 152:9

220:16 223:18

feel 22:3 25:15 40:2

46:5 57:17 78:6,8

131:4 138:12

140:1,2 142:22

157:7 163:12

171:2 172:10

183:22 193:3

feeling 203:11

feels 26:3

feet 123:17

felt 28:18

field 8:5 71:19

166:8 174:6 175:9

175:15,22 176:2

176:14 181:20

182:13,14 186:14

186:15 193:20,21

196:17 197:15

199:5,9 201:8

fierce 5:14

figure 164:5 170:19

176:21

final 18:14 29:16

30:2,4 37:9 55:16

83:21 91:5,15

104:1,3,4,9,15,22

105:16,21 106:1,5

106:13,19 108:3

111:1 113:9 115:3

115:11,13 126:18

128:12 226:1,8

229:21

finalize 77:21

find 27:6,9 29:7

36:15 43:3 48:8

57:8 66:15 75:15

111:14 226:15

finding 157:14

finds 203:4

fine 36:1 42:16

71:19 116:8

118:22 120:2

126:6 196:15

226:21

finger 34:14,15,15

fingers 34:8,9,13

finishing 230:19

first 3:7 7:8 12:11

19:22 24:13 33:10

34:17 43:2 70:13

84:1,13,15,20

87:3 89:18,20,21

91:10 101:22

102:22 106:16

108:9 109:5,9,16

111:9,15 129:9

133:14 138:16,22

142:17 145:16

165:16 223:6,9,19

229:2 230:2,14

232:1

fit 65:4 155:9

fits 191:6

five 34:6,9 116:19

116:22,22 124:2,3

146:11 233:5

flexibility 70:20

78:22

flight 19:22

flip 110:19,20

flips 111:3

floor 125:16,19

flow 27:3 146:3

224:20 228:18

fluctuate 76:20

fly 71:1 230:16,20

FMCS 13:11

focus 8:3 17:20

145:18 163:18

folks 13:9 14:10

32:22 36:2 37:4

38:1 53:2 57:6,7

61:2 64:6 67:9

74:1 77:10 85:8

90:12,13 178:8

207:12 230:15,16
ASRAC Miscellaneous Refrigeration Working Group Meeting

May 4, 2015

202-347-3700 Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. 866-928-6509

Page 243

230:16,20

follow 27:11 125:18

163:11 192:9

196:9 202:22

following 221:6

food 130:15,15

134:16 136:3,20

138:19 163:5

174:15,17 175:10

177:14,16,16

180:19,22 181:3

181:13 182:3,10

183:1,14 206:2,9

207:6 210:3,9

foods 136:8,13,14

force 60:8 61:8 79:2

forefront 9:21

forget 167:22

forgive 16:19

forgot 35:12 53:9

form 18:3,4 99:4

102:16,17 154:9

201:18

formal 27:21

formalize 42:1

formally 37:2 89:18

205:6

forms 96:11

Forrestal 1:7

Forth 9:5

forum 18:15

forward 16:2 58:6

65:1 67:10 78:16

118:19 178:7

218:7 223:22

227:10

found 188:22 221:7

four 3:18,19 19:1,2

31:14 34:11 38:16

39:21 40:10 41:9

43:8 44:10,17

45:1,1 53:19 97:8

97:10 99:22 100:1

101:22 111:16

112:16,19,19,21

116:11,12,15

124:2,3 146:11

149:20 150:14

157:22 230:5

231:19 233:5,5

Fourteen 74:10

fourth 41:11 231:22

free 113:13 140:1

freestanding 151:9

156:3,13,18

freezer 131:11,12

131:15,15,20,20

132:9,9,15,15

133:6,7 137:8

143:19 151:18,19

160:21 161:2

164:11,18 167:16

167:16 171:13,13

177:13 178:22,22

182:8,8,16,16

186:11,11 201:1,1

201:15 202:5

209:12,12,21

212:5,6,8,9

214:18,18 217:3,4

220:2,2 223:10,10

freezers 9:15 130:6

140:17 143:19

144:22,22 147:18

147:19 149:18,18

150:17 151:10

168:2,2 171:19,20

177:6,7 179:21,22

186:1,1 188:20,20

210:18,18 213:3,3

214:9,9 216:3,3

217:1 219:8,8

225:5,5 226:17,17

fresh 73:17 134:17

Friday 72:20 73:1

91:19 92:4 100:9

front 61:13 79:12

82:11 91:9 177:8

182:11 210:1

frowns 220:9

fruit 157:3

FTC 142:12 174:3

fuel 179:19

full 37:6 61:13

92:17 117:11

164:11

full-size 156:14

fully 73:8 76:6

function 143:18,20

154:9,16

functions 14:16

17:2,4 130:10

144:14

further 57:14 89:16

138:18 147:7

151:12 165:9

218:13

future 51:16 222:11

227:14

FYI 65:2

G

G 3:1

garbage 116:3

gauge 34:7

GE 2:11 11:12,13

45:9 49:22 52:9

67:5 71:4 90:6

95:4 96:3,13

107:2 137:15

143:13 153:4,16

159:7 161:18

164:9 165:12

169:2 170:4 180:6

183:8 189:20

196:21 200:16

222:4

geez 78:8

general 3:15 30:7,9

62:9 64:18 96:7

105:17 142:6

152:9 167:2 219:3

220:9,17

generally 132:10

146:4 181:12

219:7 224:11

generate 37:5

151:15

generated 18:20

151:13

generating 22:9

George 50:11 68:10

69:17 80:1

getting 5:18 7:18

16:19 42:14 43:18

44:1 47:15 54:17

62:11 64:21 79:20

92:21 110:21

118:7 157:7

162:16 173:13

202:8

give 3:11 14:19,20

17:11 19:2 31:3

69:7 73:15,18

103:15 108:7

126:9 161:14

165:10 178:3

190:11 210:20

223:18

given 18:18 81:1

190:19 191:8

233:4

gives 176:13

giving 64:20 161:3

206:4 215:16

glance 223:19

global 8:22 11:20

159:11

globally 20:21

go 3:7 4:19 6:6,11

7:8 13:9 14:14

15:18,22 16:2,10

17:6,13 25:4 27:3

28:12 29:10 30:13

30:17 31:9,14

32:21 33:3,21

35:10 44:13 45:5

46:2,10 56:21

58:6,11 67:17

70:13 73:9 75:18

76:9 78:13 87:10

89:17 99:2 100:4

100:17 102:21

104:15,22 105:12

105:15,17,17

112:10 114:9,15

119:4 125:16,19

126:10,17 134:11

143:4 144:6

145:16,17,21,21

146:7,19 148:17

150:13 158:7

159:12 176:20

177:9 187:21

197:9 204:6,8

205:4,22 211:5

213:4 215:18

217:19 221:10

222:13 227:3

230:3,18 234:11

goal 82:12,13 194:4

goals 179:14 195:14

goes 20:12 22:6

112:2 115:10

143:10 166:13

168:19 227:10

231:21

going 3:14 4:14,15

4:17,19 5:9,11,16

14:4 15:2 16:16

16:16,19 17:11,13

18:2 20:22 22:10

22:16,20 25:11

26:22 30:13,18,21

31:2 32:8,12,18

32:20 33:16,19,20

34:20 35:3,4,4,5,6

35:9,14 36:15

37:8,10,12 38:13

39:20 42:12 43:20

46:15 54:13 55:11

56:16 57:20 58:15

60:6 61:6 65:15

66:6 71:21 72:17

79:11 80:2 82:4,4

82:5 87:14,15

94:8,16 100:1,17

100:20 103:17,19

105:21 106:5

107:12 108:6

110:19 117:6,10

118:19 119:10

126:7,9 128:6,21

129:18,19,20

134:3,6 137:7

146:5,6,9,9,15,15

148:7,8 154:10

155:12 158:6

161:5,21 164:20

169:4 171:22

172:19 174:19

178:13 181:13,14

182:21 191:18

192:22 193:1,2,3

196:6 201:7 208:3

209:18 210:10

214:4 218:7,17

219:22 223:2,4

224:21 225:2

226:6,8 230:4

234:4

gold 73:18

good 4:2,3,20 6:12

9:6,11 12:5 21:22

23:20 25:15 27:1

30:6 46:5 58:17

58:18 59:5,8,9

61:10,11,11 66:18

67:21,22 68:5,11

76:13 90:2 93:2

97:21 98:11 99:17

111:22 115:21

116:1,6,18 117:22

123:18 124:5,12

124:14 126:14

130:2 175:8

176:13 192:14

206:17 207:8

209:6 215:12

224:1 230:2 231:1

goods 134:17

gotcha 81:8

GoTo 6:7 70:3

75:21 76:7

gotten 120:11

194:15

government 19:13

governmental 142:3

granted 211:22

great 30:5 123:17
ASRAC Miscellaneous Refrigeration Working Group Meeting

May 4, 2015

202-347-3700 Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. 866-928-6509

Page 244

218:20

greatly 181:22

ground 5:8,10

25:20 26:15 30:17

30:19 31:1,11

32:5,12 39:13

69:2 82:6 125:16

125:19 126:18,20

127:5 128:17

129:3,16

group 1:3 2:21 3:8

3:13 4:7,15 12:8

12:17 18:4,9,10

25:1,1,3,4,7 26:2

26:13 28:2,12

29:14 31:2,8 32:5

32:15 33:6 36:9

37:16 38:2,9,14

38:17 39:8,17

41:5 43:3 45:3

46:7 53:21 54:1

54:11,18 55:3,5,9

55:11 56:17 57:14

62:17 63:14,22

64:5 65:2,7 66:13

66:19 69:5,9,16

69:18 71:21 72:17

73:5 74:20 78:15

80:14,22 81:6

82:12,13 83:11,20

84:16,18 85:15

86:2,13,14 88:4,6

88:15 90:7,10,21

91:7 94:15 98:4

98:13 101:6,7,10

101:10 102:11

104:9,22 108:2,3

108:10 112:17

115:15 116:20

117:5,8 119:4

128:4,14 135:3,6

135:10 142:7,16

154:22 157:1

207:11 212:13

grouping 27:20

140:5,9

groupings 39:2

44:10

groups 18:3 95:13

guarantee 21:8

guess 70:18 85:2

94:8 100:17

114:13 115:7

118:6,8 128:4

139:9,17 145:15

147:16 160:21

170:22 172:9,16

172:19 176:17

177:9 182:6

186:21 192:18

195:12 196:9

197:19 200:1

202:22 204:1

213:17 214:3,13

219:18 227:4

228:2

guide 125:15

guys 16:8 110:16

118:1 177:17

181:11 191:5

193:13 194:11

203:15 213:14

217:11 218:12

H

Hagerman 2:8 3:3,4

6:16 7:1,14,19

12:16,16 16:11,11

17:11 18:1 24:16

27:22,22 28:6,7

28:14 29:2,11

30:6,12,21 32:7

41:14,19 42:5,8

42:19 44:4,16,16

44:22 45:7 46:8

46:18 47:10,13

48:2,5 52:22,22

54:9,9,21,21

57:16,16 58:12

60:11,11 68:21,21

69:3,9 71:11

72:11,17 73:3

75:8 77:20 80:20

80:20 82:15 85:13

86:2,16,18 93:3

93:18 97:15 99:21

99:21 100:5,16

102:1,9 104:6,20

106:6,20 110:16

111:8 115:17,20

116:5 117:21

119:2,19 121:8,11

124:2,4,12 125:14

126:2,6,15 127:19

129:1,1,6,7

130:17 133:18

134:2,13 135:1,22

136:9 138:15

139:9 141:2 142:4

142:19 146:4,14

158:17 163:10,10

163:19 164:3

165:3,3 168:18,18

169:3,7,12,15,16

170:6,12,16,20

171:5 172:12,12

176:20 195:15,15

198:7 204:4,8

207:13 208:4

213:4 233:7,10,13

Haier 7:5,10 46:13

47:1

half 132:11 175:16

hand 111:19 194:7

handing 26:14

handle 17:10

handled 128:7

hands 5:3 44:11,21

91:15

hang 178:19

happen 25:14 28:11

28:13 185:5

202:12,13 208:1

227:10

happened 18:21

24:5 118:18

happening 25:16

26:21 114:7 124:9

happens 85:16

204:2

happy 218:13

hard 3:17 30:19

47:15 168:13

182:15 189:17

223:13

harmonization

11:21 159:1

harmonize 12:2

159:10,17 219:12

226:15

harmonized 159:10

harvest 133:9

hate 6:16 159:12

202:19

head 211:11

headed 215:6

heading 213:18

heads 106:12 138:6

202:7

hear 4:3,20 39:5

42:20 56:7 57:22

76:2 137:1 178:18

178:19 215:3

heard 20:19 21:4

33:9 51:1 58:22

170:21 205:21

hearing 23:14 27:2

41:9 57:17 178:7

201:22 220:14

Hearings 13:17

hears 57:14

heat 130:19,20,20

131:2 176:6

heaters 159:22

Hello 13:6

help 16:8,21 19:16

21:22 24:2 36:9

43:17 47:16 48:7

51:22 53:14 64:3

78:18 174:13

178:2,13 219:15

helpful 7:2 27:10

32:18 64:5 118:12

155:4,10 157:12

helping 135:5

helps 77:7

Hermosillo 16:6

hesitating 61:1

hesitation 95:21

208:11

Hi 9:3 10:20 11:11

14:7 62:8

high 42:18 50:17

52:4 132:6 175:18

highlighted 109:22

highway 68:19

hinges 223:17

history 134:20

170:22

hit 95:22 112:16

Hoffman 4:3,4 5:4

6:22 7:2 14:9

16:21 17:3,5 19:8

20:5 21:3,10 22:6

22:16 23:11,22

24:13,22 25:10

26:8,20 28:4 29:4

30:5,10,15,20

31:15,21 32:3,10

37:12 38:18,21

40:15 42:7 44:12

44:12 47:18 50:13

50:15 51:12 55:21

56:13,15 58:8

59:18,22 62:2

67:19 68:8,16

70:1 73:2,6,18

76:21 77:2,14,19

78:3 79:17 82:1

82:10,20 83:15,17

84:3,9,15 85:6,10

85:12,19 86:10,17

86:20 87:18 88:17

90:18 92:8 94:6

94:12,20 95:12

96:20 97:6 99:19

101:9,13 102:4

103:2,19 104:4

105:14 106:18

109:20 112:13

117:19 118:3,4

122:6 123:14,20

124:3,21 125:5

126:4,14 127:1

155:17 167:8

170:17,17 171:4

173:7 177:3 178:7

208:19 213:13

214:22 215:19

224:1 230:4,22

231:7,10,14 232:2

232:7,10,17,20

233:9,12 234:1,8

234:11

hold 30:12 35:6,14

44:22 47:15 77:3

77:14,17 221:8

holiday 232:3

home 2:11,12 10:12

162:19,22 174:18

206:1

Hon 2:15 10:3,3

43:1,1 49:13,13

51:13,13 58:1,1

64:11,11 65:10,10

73:11,11 79:22,22

86:11,11 89:2,2

92:11,11 93:1

100:8 101:1

105:15 108:1,1

130:14 134:11,14

134:14 135:21

136:2,11,11

137:11,11 138:1,1

139:1,1 141:14,14

155:20 189:4,4

197:17 205:14,14

207:16 221:12,12

221:16 227:13

231:3,3,18,18

232:5,8,13,18

hope 15:2 20:11,14

22:12 25:14 27:13

70:5 106:10

hopeful 9:6 26:21

hopefully 19:1

20:17 31:5 53:14

85:1 92:20 156:8

hoping 4:15 25:16

27:1
ASRAC Miscellaneous Refrigeration Working Group Meeting

May 4, 2015

202-347-3700 Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. 866-928-6509

Page 245

Hoshizai 2:20

Hoshizaki 9:12 49:6

49:7 54:3 148:3

hotel 204:9 205:22

206:4,12 230:21

hours 31:13,16,20

121:6 163:17

house 171:2 184:12

household 150:6

houses 166:2 195:18

196:3 210:8

housing 20:3

how's 76:15

Huang 2:5 13:11,11

huddle 31:22 36:3

huge 14:2

hybrid 7:20 44:18

49:3 51:21 131:9

131:21 132:8,9,9

132:10,11 133:7

139:22 144:20

147:2,4,5,9

149:15 150:13,15

150:17,18,19

151:17 160:11

hybrids 47:3 49:15

49:21 50:10 51:12

152:2 157:13

158:1

hypothetical 115:7

I

ice 9:16 131:1,3

133:9,12,12,13

142:20 144:12

148:11 150:8

151:13,15

Ice-o-Matic 50:18

icemaker 7:11 9:14

133:5 143:19

145:11 150:18

icemakers 8:12

44:19 47:3,5

48:16 49:8,11,16

49:21 50:2,19

52:5 53:9 131:9

131:22 139:18

140:5,6,13 143:14

143:22 144:4,12

148:6 149:21

150:1,8,11 151:11

158:1,2

idea 68:16 120:13

122:4 158:11

191:13 206:13

221:2 229:22

ideas 37:18 123:14

identical 163:13

176:12 179:11

identification

216:15

identified 150:14

156:16 219:21

identify 43:20 64:4

176:16,17

identifying 216:18

IEC 12:2 67:7

158:21 159:9,13

159:18 164:8,11

164:21

ignition 111:19

ignorance 169:17

ignore 80:17

ignoring 200:4

imagine 99:22

129:10

immediately 229:11

impact 29:17,19,20

53:21 59:13 105:7

156:19 159:1

215:5

impacting 65:17

impartial 21:19

implement 107:17

implication 137:8

implications 145:9

168:6,6

important 3:5,5

4:16 5:11 6:20

14:15 68:19 79:8

144:18 145:10

165:22

importantly 33:5

imposed 217:10

impression 145:15

inability 179:6

inappropriate

139:8

Inaudible 50:13

include 63:11 83:13

85:3 132:19 133:3

133:11 144:7

171:17 187:7

189:15 216:6

226:4,11 228:6

included 52:12

144:5 145:6

171:18 220:7

227:8

includes 65:11

131:20 149:9

177:13 223:13

including 62:18,19

84:3 92:14 114:8

186:2,10 213:19

inclusion 143:14

inclusive 207:1

incorporate 57:10

incorporated 152:3

increase 165:17

182:20 183:6

increased 195:6

incredible 27:7

158:21

Independence 1:8

indicate 97:3

167:17

indifferent 48:2

individual 90:8

115:1 145:18

individually 127:11

indoor 14:1 171:9

industrial 11:8

industry 23:19 89:5

162:2

infomercial 19:9

inform 64:8

informal 12:14

information 27:2

37:18 53:14 64:7

73:7 136:4 148:21

informed 75:5 85:1

initial 45:6

initially 62:14 158:2

input 119:1 121:2

132:3,20

inside 23:2 141:10

installed 181:16

182:13,14 186:14

instance 176:9

Institute 2:19 13:19

integral 216:7

intend 181:11

186:10

intended 171:9

181:11 182:9

183:1,1 186:13

189:18 201:8

intent 96:2 97:2

111:8 115:12

116:5 128:2 199:1

199:12 210:2,11

intention 110:18

120:10 178:20

180:2 182:19

194:18 227:19

interest 7:13 8:13

49:15 51:2,5

61:12 66:14 89:4

interested 9:5 11:9

13:20 18:14 49:3

51:19 148:14

217:19

interesting 9:18

interests 56:20 75:5

interpretation

197:11 198:22

204:18

interrupt 6:17

Intertech 14:5

191:12

intimately 164:1

introduce 6:5,17

30:7 90:20 195:4

195:7

introduced 183:14

introduction 4:19

4:21 25:17 159:6

193:18

invested 18:15

investigate 29:1

218:13

involve 175:10

involved 11:15,20

43:5 79:8 142:3

144:14 158:20

involvement 7:12

Isael 4:13 16:6,6

27:5

ISO 164:10,11

issuance 205:4

226:1

issue 15:21 61:14

62:10,12 67:6

71:3 83:20 93:20

139:10 161:22

166:3,5 167:3

170:15,16 174:3

180:5,9 185:10

191:16,21 197:5

203:13 205:2

206:9,20 218:7

224:6

issued 211:12

issues 64:20 106:11

118:16 141:2

146:1 152:10

166:15 167:20

179:16 180:8

185:10 187:12

211:13

item 80:21

items 6:3 43:19

54:12 56:19

118:13 136:7

141:15

IUC 11:18

J

J 2:19

Javier 2:3 4:11

14:12 31:9 32:18

35:20 36:11 41:14

73:2,13 82:15

97:16 119:7

123:18 142:19

207:13 223:2

Jen 10:11 28:10,19

40:9 45:22 49:17

74:17 83:7 87:20

95:16 114:4 120:1

122:13,15 155:3

173:20 174:9

192:17 193:7

194:2 195:2 202:9

225:16 227:22

234:8

Jen's 224:15

Jennifer 2:12 10:6

38:18,22 44:4,6

51:7 54:22 55:20

56:7 72:4 76:9,10

78:5 83:6 84:5

92:1 96:17,22

108:11 110:10

114:3 118:5

136:22 138:8,9

144:9,10 146:22

148:5 156:6 157:5

157:6 162:12

167:8,9 170:21

174:8 192:16

213:6 215:1

218:16 225:15

Jennifer's 233:13

Jenny 39:20

Jim 147:14

Joanna 2:16 11:5

40:4,7,8 59:14

107:1,10,11

174:22 184:19,20

186:20 209:7

213:16 214:14

215:3,9

job 23:7 75:19

158:21 175:8

jobs 10:1

Joe 3:3 12:16 16:11

21:4 24:16 25:13

27:3,18,22 28:7
ASRAC Miscellaneous Refrigeration Working Group Meeting

May 4, 2015

202-347-3700 Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. 866-928-6509

Page 246

29:9 42:16 44:16

46:20 48:11 52:8

52:22 54:9,21

57:16 60:11 68:21

80:20 99:21

117:19 118:3

123:14 125:10

129:1,6 138:7

145:15 146:3

148:20 154:11

163:10 165:3

168:18 169:16

172:12 195:15

208:3

Joe's 30:18 64:2

117:10

join 93:4

joined 3:14 178:13

joining 30:15 56:9

Joseph 2:8

Judith 13:3

July 125:7 231:11

231:12,22 232:1,2

232:7,11,17,20

234:3,3

jump 161:8 177:2

205:16 231:12

jumping 204:6,7

206:16 208:15

222:7,10,18,21

228:3,9,12

June 123:17,18,20

123:22 125:7

230:7,8,8,9,9,10

230:22 231:13

233:5,8 234:2

jurisdiction 142:11

Justice 7:21 40:18

70:17 89:6 94:3

105:2 114:12

117:15 147:15

172:5

justification 167:7

jut 16:12 60:7

K

keep 15:15 36:11,13

40:6 55:1,3,12

80:21 93:3 96:1

106:11,16 121:20

135:1 162:5 166:2

195:18 202:16

205:2 206:5 229:3

233:15,18

keeping 134:17

Kelly 30:13,13

kept 108:8

key 20:9 111:19

141:2 152:9 200:4

kick 212:17

kicked 226:8

kicks 202:1

kind 13:20 14:3

16:7 37:15 39:2

44:10 47:13 59:11

74:19 85:3 107:3

117:9 119:12,16

131:4 145:20

146:22 148:22

155:11 157:9

158:22 162:16

167:3 175:16

177:14 181:9

183:22 200:14

204:20 211:14

215:10 221:1

knew 79:11

knit-picky 92:2

know 3:17 4:20 6:6

6:10 7:3 12:10

15:1 18:19 22:20

24:3,6 26:3 27:20

28:14 35:19 36:5

37:4 39:3,4 41:2

42:10,19 43:19

44:7,22 45:2,3,15

45:18 47:7,14

48:7 50:11,12,17

56:10 60:14 61:5

61:13,18 62:14

63:18 70:3,7

71:16 74:21,22

75:17 77:21 78:9

79:12,15 80:1

81:4,10 85:8,15

88:11,13 92:4

94:22 95:15 97:1

100:22 106:11

107:15 109:4

111:5,10,18

113:10,13 114:7

114:13 115:12

120:4 121:2,17

125:11 129:19

133:18 140:2

143:22 144:12,14

144:17,17 145:2,5

145:8,17,22

146:16 147:5

148:6 155:12

157:12 158:15

159:3 162:13,15

163:3 166:12,17

166:19 167:2,3,12

167:15,17 168:11

168:13 174:17

175:4,6,21,22,22

176:4,5 180:16

181:4 186:17

189:22 190:18

191:6,11,16,18

192:2,14 193:1,18

193:20 194:4,6

195:5 198:2,13

199:18 200:2,3,7

201:6 202:16

205:11 207:9,10

208:15 209:21

210:12 211:12,12

217:8 221:5,5,17

221:19 222:1

227:20 230:11

knowing 37:6

170:22

knowledge 50:20

64:6

knows 192:7

Kuch 10:20,21

43:13 65:2

L

lab 13:7 180:10

184:17 189:21

190:2,10,12,13,18

192:6

labeled 206:11

labeling 141:18

205:19

labels 142:12

labor 19:11

labs 160:5 184:13

labyrinth 125:20

lack 143:7 176:17

language 22:18

25:19 81:22 85:3

91:6 94:14 95:1

105:6,10 107:21

137:22 179:10

209:21

large 140:13

larger 25:7 28:2

203:2

late 3:10 230:17

232:13

Laughter 100:2

Laura 203:11

Lawrence 13:7

lawyer 3:11 30:14

32:8

lawyers 217:20

lead 12:14

learn 5:6 9:2

learned 27:7

learning 4:14

leave 63:8 72:3

73:15 92:5 116:1

122:5 133:22

227:7

leery 174:5

left 129:17 147:22

213:5 214:11

215:14 225:15

229:15

left- 176:22

leftover 206:1

legal 62:10,13 64:20

134:21

legally 64:22 224:16

lengthen 108:21

lessening 29:20

let's 4:2 12:19 13:9

19:4,4,4 28:8,11

35:11 37:1 41:20

44:20 46:10 57:21

60:13 61:9,13

67:20 69:15,19

70:7,12 71:20,21

72:11 77:8 78:7

78:10 80:21 81:19

83:4 84:6 89:22

90:3 91:1,4,14

93:7 97:9,12,13

98:2,8,12 99:14

99:18 101:18,21

101:22 104:12

108:8 109:8

110:13 112:10,16

112:18 116:14,19

116:21 117:2

123:3 125:2

126:17,20 128:16

130:1 133:14

135:1,17 148:16

159:8 167:22

168:20 178:1,15

198:3 204:15

207:13 211:14

220:20,21 225:10

225:11,13 231:7

233:4

letters 203:12

letting 75:17 111:5

level 8:5 11:2 23:8

33:12 36:19 41:12

54:15 61:20 69:20

73:21

levels 34:6,6 38:4

41:11 60:9 107:15

218:2

lieu 229:7

lifetime 29:18

lighting 11:9

likewise 55:8

limit 99:7

limited 10:17

172:22 176:5

line 50:15 85:14

107:7 118:20

182:15,22 189:17

192:3 195:4 218:5

lines 51:21 201:18

link 179:6 231:16

linked 231:20

list 48:3 56:18 71:21

73:4,17 74:7

87:16 118:12

listed 139:6 143:17

189:10

listening 57:3

literally 18:1

literature 144:2

litigation 115:2

206:13

little 3:10,12 4:21

15:17 23:5 25:12

25:17 26:16 28:17

32:17 33:2,21,22

34:16 35:7,9,22

36:1,3 38:19

39:22 42:9,14,17

42:18 55:2 58:19

61:6 70:7 72:1

78:18 87:21 89:16

96:10 106:12

112:9 118:7

121:18 129:8,15

146:8 147:16

156:10 158:18

165:6 177:22

178:5,18 192:18

194:6,10 195:12

203:22 208:16

209:8 215:17

225:9 229:19,20

230:14,15,18

232:16

live 23:18 33:10,11

33:14 34:11 42:7

56:15 75:13

load 162:19 163:5
ASRAC Miscellaneous Refrigeration Working Group Meeting

May 4, 2015

202-347-3700 Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. 866-928-6509

Page 247

164:11 174:17

180:19 183:21

loaded 159:14

loadings 175:11

loads 163:12 176:6

180:22 181:3

lock 71:12 234:7

log 27:9

logging 27:6

logic 135:12 175:12

196:9

logically 131:4

168:20

logistical 14:14

long 31:16 85:13

86:9 105:4 109:13

127:20 128:1

138:2 166:21

167:1,5

longer 202:15 204:9

longstanding 147:4

look 22:21 31:17

81:19 84:10,15,16

87:3 89:18 90:3

91:4,9,12 95:2

96:12 97:9,12

98:2,12 99:18

101:21,22 103:16

108:7 112:19

116:19 117:3

118:22 120:14

123:21 127:15

128:10 131:4

154:14 162:10

164:14 171:2,11

177:9 178:3,7

179:10 219:6

224:20 225:18

226:2,8,9,12

231:7

looked 149:20

looking 5:5 11:21

12:1 20:19 22:17

22:18 32:14 37:9

38:8,20 39:1

41:11 53:18 56:18

60:9 64:16 82:11

122:4 125:6

129:21 157:2,4

164:13,15,17,22

172:17 182:22

197:6 198:15

201:8 213:18

230:5 234:1

looks 157:20

loophole 138:20

187:11

loosely 209:22

lose 148:11 162:10

loss 157:15

lost 126:1

lot 4:18 15:20,20

16:1,4 19:11,14

43:5 68:13 75:4,7

82:17 103:16

124:8,13 136:18

138:6,11,12

148:20 157:7

159:3 171:2 188:4

197:20 206:12

209:15

lots 121:14 136:19

low 42:17 159:21

160:1

low-hanging 157:3

lower 98:15 132:4,5

185:12

lowest 33:12 41:12

lump 154:7

lumped 149:8

228:16

lunch 15:1,2,4

22:19 32:8,9,10

110:21,22 111:2

114:7 124:22

125:11 127:2,3

M

machine 9:16

Madison 12:9

madness 67:19

main 223:6,6,14

maintain 88:8 150:9

161:15 162:7,9

179:5 183:11,13

185:1,11,14 187:1

187:18 189:3

191:17,18 194:8

196:14 200:3,8

210:10,15,19

214:1 221:9

maintained 191:17

maintaining 132:3

132:21 139:17

158:13 165:8

167:18 188:16

191:8 196:7

198:10

major 12:8 21:6

152:20

majority 38:7,8

69:18 74:4 80:4

80:10

making 7:17 43:7

47:8 75:12 107:18

109:13 114:5

150:8

man 77:22

mandate 79:2

manipulating

173:17 174:13

manual 150:19

manufacture 50:4,9

51:14,15 61:21

62:6 194:19

manufactured 20:3

manufacturer

46:11 47:8 49:16

49:18 187:3 192:7

203:1

manufacturers 2:13

10:1,12,13 12:9

40:19,21 43:7,7

44:8 45:10,16

52:11,16 184:13

188:4 192:22

195:9

manufactures 50:18

53:7 61:17

manufacturing 2:15

10:4,9 43:1 47:22

49:13 51:2,5 58:1

64:12 79:22

134:15 139:2

141:14

mapping 57:18

151:17

Marciniak 2:22

8:15,16 39:7,15

39:19 48:18,18

49:9 58:19 59:6,9

66:12,22 87:5,19

91:17,22 98:18

mark 52:6 114:3

marker 80:11

market 13:1 40:22

43:4,11 45:14

151:22 201:14

203:2

marketed 139:16

186:14

marry 156:17

Mary 2:14 9:3 49:1

51:10,17 55:19

75:11 105:19

112:22 116:6

145:12 146:20,21

206:18,19

material 27:5,8

129:19

materially 115:14

materials 73:8

119:20 129:9,12

matter 8:21 36:8

62:13 63:6 131:6

188:20 221:7,10

matters 121:21

217:9 227:20

Mauer 2:16 11:5,5

40:8,8,16 59:14

59:14,21 60:20

84:21 85:8,11

107:11,11,22

174:22,22 184:20

184:20 186:20

187:10,14 209:7,7

209:14 213:16

maximum 8:2 42:2

123:15

maze 125:20

mean 21:5 22:22

36:12 42:5,10

43:14 44:10 46:1

51:15 52:10 57:19

61:12 71:5 74:7

81:2 92:2 93:13

96:15 101:3

102:18 109:11,12

115:12 124:12,14

133:4 135:3 137:1

138:10,10 144:11

144:15 146:5

154:7 155:5

161:19 163:16

165:17,21 166:15

172:14 179:7

183:9,17 186:4

188:11,21 190:9

191:20 192:1,10

193:11 194:3

196:3,12 197:9

198:21 199:5,11

199:13 200:17

202:11 203:8,15

204:20 205:17

215:9,22 217:12

218:3,18 221:22

222:5 228:2,13

233:21

meaning 38:10

meaningless 163:6

means 25:5 42:6

51:20,21 60:17

133:12 169:12

190:3 194:16

meant 79:17 93:22

182:9 183:4,18

189:18,19 217:17

measure 169:19,20

169:21 183:6

measuring 170:7

meat 15:4 164:16

mechanical 114:7

132:19

mechanically

110:20 111:3

mechanism 21:7

mediating 5:18

Mediation 2:3,5 4:9

14:13 16:7 19:9

medium 130:21

meet 5:19 161:12

173:9,12,15

174:14 185:4

186:6,7 187:20

189:13 190:16,19

190:20,21 197:2,7

197:8 203:4,9,14

205:8 206:9,15

210:21 211:6

meeting 1:1,3 2:1

6:4,7 22:17 23:1,2

24:7,13 25:11,13

27:4 44:2 53:3

54:7 60:21 67:11

70:3 71:2 75:7,22

76:7,17 77:3,15

77:18 78:8,11

115:10 117:8,17

118:11,13,18

119:6,9,11,12

120:4,14 122:7,14

122:19 124:9

129:12 130:11

230:14 231:4

233:8 234:13

meetings 3:18,19

19:1,3,5 24:15,15

27:10 74:20 75:3

90:4 99:22 119:3

119:21 122:22

124:10 126:13

138:22 230:5,17

232:6

meets 161:4 205:9

member 10:5 80:4

81:3,3 85:22 88:4

90:8,21 99:4

member's 85:16

members 10:15
ASRAC Miscellaneous Refrigeration Working Group Meeting

May 4, 2015

202-347-3700 Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. 866-928-6509

Page 248

25:3,22 32:15

54:11 58:13 60:18

75:22 80:22 81:2

81:10 84:17 86:12

88:15 121:1 184:7

Memorial 124:17

124:18

mention 29:9 37:12

50:6 51:2 83:8

107:8

mentioned 51:9,10

52:10 136:6 164:7

199:8 205:15

210:16

mentions 20:5

21:10

met 205:7

Method 67:19

methods 207:3

microphones 15:8

middle 21:14

mike 14:5,15 76:1

136:10

Mile 50:17 52:4

mind 55:1,3,12

80:21 93:3 111:4

125:11 130:7,18

131:4 144:19

205:2 233:16,18

minimizing 182:1

minimum 187:17

206:15

minor 54:14 126:21

minute 103:15

128:9 216:2

minutes 14:22 31:4

32:13 36:5 56:3

108:7 117:3 178:4

mirror 156:10

miscellaneous 1:2

3:8 12:18 13:21

18:6 43:15 51:20

52:13 62:16,21

63:5 130:3,8

131:6,12,17,18

143:15 144:5

147:2 154:13

166:16 168:3

171:12 214:6

217:5,14 223:11

missed 88:9

missing 75:7

missions 19:17

misspellings 16:18

misstated 59:15

misunderstood

212:17

mixed 15:17 151:1

Mm-hmm 188:13

model 4:16 133:10

139:11

modification 198:8

modifications 81:1

101:15 112:20

123:1

modified 96:9

107:21 135:19

modify 81:20

224:16

modifying 180:2

Monday 1:12

100:10

months 16:9 19:2

100:1 125:8 230:6

230:6

morning 4:3 5:9

9:11 12:5 230:17

230:17

mouth 214:14,16

215:4

Mouw 2:18 8:10,10

45:21,21 48:10

50:16,22 51:9

53:16,16 74:5,11

86:4 88:7 103:21

103:21 122:12,12

122:21 188:7,10

188:14,21 197:18

199:10 200:1

203:20 204:12

214:12 223:2

move 12:19 28:21

37:2 67:10 68:22

78:16 89:17 91:6

110:22 201:14

223:22

moving 30:16 84:9

89:14 108:8

201:10

MREF 18:4 140:5

multiple 29:15

151:5

mutual 121:5

N

N 3:1

nail 229:21

name 6:14 8:15 9:3

10:20 11:11 13:6

13:13 14:12 16:6

16:13 38:21 71:7

73:16 85:16 92:21

named 19:16

narrative 177:1

Nat 53:16

Nate 2:18 48:10

50:16 82:1 188:7

203:20 204:12

214:12

Nathan 8:10 45:21

74:5 103:21

122:12 196:20

197:16,18 199:10

204:4 223:1,3

nation 206:17

National 13:7 29:20

nature 17:20 139:4

146:8

nausaem 135:4

Navigant 6:9 12:22

13:3 22:12 24:16

30:3 133:19

148:19 153:9

161:9 171:8 185:8

NCRs 185:19

near 51:15 160:21

160:22

NECA 216:15

necessarily 33:13

121:3 144:17,20

179:5,7,9 182:21

185:14 186:15

192:1 193:22

194:13 205:10

206:5

necessary 176:4

need 7:1 14:18,18

14:21 16:4,5

24:17,19,22 25:22

28:21 35:15,21

36:1 42:1,9 43:2,3

43:10,19 47:21

48:6 54:20 57:11

65:22 68:15 69:21

72:8 76:21 77:2

78:22 79:21 81:5

81:10,20 85:17

87:8,9 91:9 94:14

102:1,9 106:3,3

106:15 111:11

117:16 118:19

121:4,5,17,22

123:8 124:11

125:22 135:9,19

140:7 141:3

142:18 144:21

152:10,12,17

156:2 158:3

163:18 164:5

166:14 168:13

171:21 172:2

178:18 179:10

182:5 192:12

194:10 195:7

203:8,13,16,18

205:2 208:15

215:11 219:3,5

225:19 229:19

234:9

needed 18:2 52:3

53:11 78:17

141:10 200:5

233:1

needing 179:11

needs 77:18 81:3

86:7 147:10

207:17

neg 9:4

negative 33:22

56:11 58:2,3,5,8,9

69:11 112:11

113:2,10,15

127:15

negotiate 83:21

115:22 218:1

228:5

negotiated 5:1,13

6:1 7:8 19:21 20:6

21:16,18 26:11

31:1 177:19

negotiating 115:21

213:15 226:16

227:19

negotiation 27:19

29:5 227:7,11

negotiations 12:14

37:21 100:14

205:12

negs 4:22 5:1 41:5

114:14

neutral 64:15

never 18:11,21

161:22 162:7

165:15

new 4:12 8:16,19

129:16 145:2,6

146:15 152:13

153:2,8,22 154:3

154:6,12 158:14

166:16,17,17

217:22 225:1,20

225:21

nice 109:15 142:21

niggling 89:7

night's 230:21

nine 14:9

Ninety 174:19

ninth 232:9

nitty-gritty 158:7

no's 26:17

nominate 86:4 88:4

nominated 46:18

92:16

nomination 87:10

92:18

non-compression

53:19 66:17

non-compressor

10:16 44:18 46:16

46:16,21,22 47:2

47:4 131:8,22

132:10,16,17

133:1,8 137:12,20

147:17 149:13

153:6,14 154:1,7

154:11,15 155:8

158:1 189:2 197:7

197:22 199:15,15

212:8 213:22

214:15,17 215:13

217:2,6 219:10,20

220:4 221:8

224:18 225:4

227:6 228:9,16

non-compressor-...

52:18

non-condenser

224:8

non-consensus

39:10 40:1

non-icemaker

141:11

non-perishable

136:16

non-responsive

48:9

NOPR 102:10

103:13,14 104:19

105:12 129:14

143:21 149:1

normal 20:16

normally 34:7

37:21 90:13

note 91:18 152:19

noted 139:14,19

152:1

notes 16:9 144:1

nothing's 24:7

notice 20:12 103:7,8

104:16,17 110:1,3
ASRAC Miscellaneous Refrigeration Working Group Meeting

May 4, 2015

202-347-3700 Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. 866-928-6509

Page 249

110:4 134:8

noticed 33:11 39:8

83:8

Notwithstanding

48:5

NSF 138:19 139:3,6

139:12 141:21

nuances 141:22

number 27:9 39:17

42:2 60:10 61:20

62:17 66:6 67:12

69:19 74:2,8,13

75:9,18 76:16

77:9 80:10 83:5

84:7,10 87:4 91:5

91:15 97:13 98:14

98:15,15 101:21

111:16 112:19

116:12,19,22,22

117:3 122:11

123:4,6,10,12,15

134:14 164:5

168:19 169:5,7

184:16 190:11

numbers 54:19

74:21,22 76:20

153:1

numerous 201:6

O

O 3:1

o'clock 230:19

obey 216:14

object 114:17

objected 140:15

objecting 115:15

objection 82:18

138:2 147:16

objections 115:1

obligation 23:12

obligations 89:1

observation 124:15

184:22

observe 13:12,19

16:8

obvious 165:21

obviously 3:4 11:2

17:19 18:3,14

28:15 49:19 53:18

55:7 62:4 63:15

64:9 70:19 71:12

80:3 181:15

201:17 203:17

occasionally 23:1

occur 81:21

October 7:6

odd 156:14

OEMs 45:12

offense 82:21

offer 33:19 112:5

142:20

office 13:14,16 30:8

142:6 220:9,17

223:18

offices 21:22

official 3:7,19 41:15

41:17

oh 78:8

okay 4:21 7:20

14:21 17:9 19:8

28:4,8 29:4 32:11

34:21 35:15,18

36:16,17 39:6,15

41:13,21 42:2,21

43:12 47:12 53:10

56:2,3,10 59:9,22

60:1,19 61:8 62:1

66:5,9,11,21 67:4

67:13,15 69:16

72:7,14,15 73:20

74:11,16 76:21

77:9,17 79:3

80:13,16,19,19

81:19 82:9 83:4

84:4,5,6 89:13,16

90:2 91:2,22 93:1

93:17 95:7 97:10

97:12 98:9,11

99:15,17 100:10

100:11 101:19,21

102:4,6 107:7,10

107:20,21 108:9

109:19 111:15

112:5,8 113:18

114:1 115:3,19

116:9,9,10,15,22

118:5 123:6 125:3

125:10 126:22

128:11,16,19

130:17 134:2

138:6,8,10 139:12

146:4 147:12

164:3 169:15

170:6 171:4

177:20 180:6

181:8 188:14

196:18 202:20

209:14,17 212:1

212:14 215:7

219:17,19,20

220:8,22 223:15

229:22 230:10

231:7,11 232:2,2

232:3,17,20,22

old 164:10

onboard 150:7

once 16:15 58:17

148:8 162:6

225:12

one-for-one 18:13

one-pager 122:17

one-to-one 179:8

onerous 88:22

ones 73:12 111:2

120:7 188:21,22

online 14:10 74:14

77:10

onset 28:2

open 39:4 75:22

81:9 172:10

opened 183:14

200:10

opening 6:18,20

134:4 163:4

197:13

openings 162:20

163:13 174:17

175:10 176:6

180:19,21,22

181:1,4 182:3

183:22 199:3,4,7

199:17 200:5,19

210:9

operate 68:16 69:5

92:18 147:19

operated 176:1,3

216:4

operating 29:18

182:11 193:20

194:21 195:1

196:10 201:4

210:4 211:20

operation 140:8

opinion 180:1

193:12

opinions 81:11

opportunity 64:1

114:22 207:19

oppose 140:4

opposed 97:7

194:13 201:10

opted 217:12

option 233:17

options 22:9,10

125:11

order 15:16 37:22

69:22 82:9 158:9

171:11 180:12

organization 85:7

85:20 90:19

organizations 5:15

21:14 23:19

original 139:5

189:13

originally 216:15

Orman 6:15,15 7:5

7:5,17 46:13,13

46:20 47:7,12,20

other's 39:5

ought 108:18

outcome 27:18

104:2 113:4

outdoor 14:1

outdoors 216:5

outside 23:2 55:9

62:20 90:9 141:9

overall 143:1

overlap 172:3 179:1

overlooked 113:11

overview 17:10,12

25:17

P

P 3:1

p.m 234:14

packages 164:12,16

packaging 164:17

page 69:4 78:2

80:21 89:9 108:6

138:16 145:22

158:7,8 204:16

pages 31:14 145:18

paid 17:8

Pam 13:13

pan 160:10

panel 66:16 99:3

paragraph 31:10

32:14 82:16 83:20

84:1,12,12 87:22

97:17 106:16

110:5

parallel 103:1

227:15

pardon 169:17

parent 10:6 86:13

86:14 108:2 231:4

parentheses 96:14

parking 15:20,20

16:1,4

part 8:9 12:13

26:10 27:13 28:20

32:22 37:16 63:5

63:11 70:11 104:3

129:9 157:10

172:14 187:7,8

191:15 205:16,18

215:6,21 216:7

224:13

participants 23:14

32:5 84:10 114:17

participate 26:3

40:21 76:6

participated 114:15

124:7

participating 93:13

105:22

participation 25:21

32:15 76:12 90:4

particular 8:3 18:18

21:21 27:9 62:12

63:7 71:1 133:19

145:22 158:9

175:4 211:14

particularly 158:11

174:15

parties 51:1 84:16

partly 175:5

Partner 9:19

parts 163:19

party 75:1 165:14

180:10 189:21

190:2

pass 30:18,22 31:3

126:9 221:22

passed 68:8 129:8

paste 39:14

pasting 103:17

pat 25:12

path 64:22 214:4

pathway 218:14

Pause 91:13 103:18

pay 106:4

paying 35:19

people 4:12 5:12 6:7

9:9 20:21 37:15

38:9,10,16 39:2

41:3 43:6 45:4

54:6 57:8,10

69:21 75:7,17,18

76:16 79:7,19

80:11 93:6 95:14

97:2 99:1 116:2

118:1 123:15

134:5 140:2

142:22 166:2,8

178:10 181:13,14

201:12 225:8

people's 41:15

42:20

perceived 23:13
ASRAC Miscellaneous Refrigeration Working Group Meeting

May 4, 2015

202-347-3700 Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. 866-928-6509

Page 250

percent 21:8 26:16

139:20 176:10

232:19

percentage 152:5

perfect 119:15

174:12

perform 29:15

143:17 162:21

166:7,22 174:20

176:14

performance 11:18

11:19 29:19 65:6

173:19 200:5

performs 154:16

period 94:18 167:1

227:20

perishable 130:15

134:17 136:8,13

136:14

permitted 95:20

96:19,20

person 16:22 35:17

66:22 93:15 96:7

96:19,21 97:5,6

person's 36:14

113:12

personally 138:13

204:13

perspective 51:19

165:6 178:9

189:15 200:21

223:8 226:19

perspectives 198:5

pertain 56:20 59:12

phased 229:9

phone 93:4

physically 45:16

76:7 77:10 221:17

pick 5:6 57:5

157:12 174:4

225:14 234:5

picking 36:12

picky 107:3 109:11

piece 30:11 70:13

156:4 163:18

205:12

pieces 180:15

pigeon 96:8

pivotal 204:15

place 120:20 224:13

placed 206:16

places 111:11

159:16,20,21

planet 164:19

planned 3:6

planning 102:19

play 23:4 205:13

player 21:6

playing 8:5

please 27:15 47:16

48:7 95:9

plus 8:17

pocket 35:5,12

point 24:9 27:17

30:6 38:7 54:8,15

74:3 75:12 76:12

76:13 77:17 88:7

89:7 93:11 109:13

142:5 145:11

152:12 155:21

162:13 171:22

184:1 189:6 191:2

194:19 199:13

212:4 215:9,11,11

217:17 233:14

pointed 140:10

points 29:8 57:12

91:7 142:5 173:4

180:4

policy 62:11 64:21

politically 58:10

Pontillo 13:13,13

pop 125:20

portable 149:22

150:5

portion 97:3 207:18

230:1

portrayed 27:1

position 61:22

67:10

possibility 54:5 79:7

93:2 104:18

230:12

possible 16:20

18:16 23:17 27:18

37:18 72:6 83:11

98:16 104:2

120:10 121:13,20

123:20,22 164:17

206:13 221:17

227:13

possibly 161:22

222:13

post 16:17 31:8

potatoes 15:5

potential 3:20

166:20 172:19

173:6 187:11

potentially 99:7

128:3 135:19

184:6,15 202:21

205:9 219:10

224:16 229:9

pounds 9:17

PowerPoint 126:8

129:8

practical 184:17

225:3

practice 168:10

preamble 105:7,11

193:16

precede 109:14

precursor 198:16

prefer 34:17 93:18

162:2

preference 55:7

97:4,5,6,7 108:21

227:3

preliminary 15:3

45:2 129:14

148:22 149:3,6

152:22 153:12

154:20 175:14

217:16

premature 204:22

premium 12:10

prepared 117:8

118:17 121:1

present 61:2 66:18

69:22 75:2,19

77:10

presentation 129:16

145:16

presentations 64:7

126:12

presented 25:6

176:8

presently 189:9

presents 90:20

pressure 118:2

presumably 195:17

213:8

pretty 8:20 13:4

15:13 16:15 25:15

119:5 128:1

129:20 133:4

135:13 151:1

173:3 195:10

Prevention 13:15

previous 131:13

138:3 139:10

172:14 182:7

193:17

previously 80:13

price 22:2

principal 10:8

principles 197:11

198:22

prior 7:7 50:9

118:10 122:22

186:9 193:17

probably 14:22

21:13 28:16 61:17

80:15 88:16

104:16 105:8

108:18 124:16

127:10 128:1,6

145:19 147:7

148:15,21 157:16

158:7 163:17

183:3 217:22

224:13 229:19

problem 37:17 48:6

124:17 138:15

157:11 161:19

173:13,18 174:7

problems 166:21

procedure 10:18

11:22 14:6 18:22

21:11 102:3,10

104:7,10,11,16,21

105:21 107:4,9

108:17 111:9

112:9 114:8 127:8

137:3 143:21

147:10 148:14

149:1 159:11,13

159:18 161:10

167:12 174:13

175:10 176:13,19

179:5,12,20 185:9

192:20 197:12

199:1,2 213:9

procedures 6:2

11:21 18:6 81:12

83:9,14,15,22

84:3 102:7,15

103:1 106:2,13

107:4,6,9,14,19

108:20 109:3,14

109:16 111:7

128:5 146:9,11

147:6 166:18

179:4,4 186:12

197:14 201:3

216:21

proceed 16:9

proceeding 63:3,9

proceeds 168:7

process 4:13,22 7:9

13:12 16:8,15

17:12 19:18 20:8

20:16 21:6,18

22:13 23:12,15

25:18 28:13 29:5

33:8 42:14 77:5

78:21 81:8,8

87:10,11 107:16

107:17 112:2

113:9 124:7 159:5

207:19,20,22

227:10

processes 207:22

produce 10:16

133:9

produced 7:11

product 8:16 11:22

12:19 43:8 45:16

45:19,19 62:15

63:2,12 130:9

131:1,8,11,12,19

132:8,13 133:5,7

133:11,20 135:6,8

140:8,11 141:3,11

141:16,17 142:18

144:2 146:6,13,19

147:21 148:6,17

149:1,6,8,14,16

149:17,19 150:2

150:22 151:3,5,12

151:17,19,20

152:2,11,13,15,18

152:20 153:5,6,7

153:8,13 154:18

156:1,11,14

158:12 160:1,6,11

160:14,15,17,18

161:1,3,5,12,15

162:3,4,7,15,19

162:21 163:7

165:7,14 166:6,11

168:8 169:10,11

171:16 172:1

173:9 176:10

180:10,12,20

181:11 183:11,21

185:4,6,11 187:3

187:18 189:22

190:1,3,13,19

191:12 192:8

195:22 199:9,12

201:3 203:3,9,11

203:14 206:7,15

216:12,18 217:4

217:13 218:1,1

220:6 222:14

223:11 224:7,21

225:1,1,20

productive 5:19

100:15
ASRAC Miscellaneous Refrigeration Working Group Meeting

May 4, 2015

202-347-3700 Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. 866-928-6509

Page 251

products 3:9 7:11

7:11 8:14,22 10:4

10:13,16 12:12

14:1 18:7 27:19

28:12 40:22 41:3

43:8,8,15 44:8,14

44:18 45:11 46:6

48:4,12,14,20,21

51:2,6 53:7,20

54:1 55:4 61:16

61:17,19,20 62:7

130:3,8 131:7,9

131:21 132:11,12

136:7,19,19 137:5

139:14,15,22

140:1,6,13,19

141:5,6,9 142:1

142:13,14 143:15

143:22 144:6,13

144:20 145:6

147:1,2,5 149:10

149:15,19 150:14

151:14,21 152:16

152:19,22 153:10

153:13 154:8,13

156:16 157:9

159:12 166:17,21

166:22 167:13,18

168:4,7 172:21

173:1,14,18 174:6

174:11,19 175:18

176:1,14,17

177:11 181:12

182:9 184:16

185:1,18 188:2,5

188:15 189:7,9

190:22 191:7

195:17 196:2,5,10

196:14 197:1,1,6

198:17,19 201:13

201:20 202:2,14

205:6,8,19 206:8

207:4,11 209:16

210:6,7,14 211:8

212:6,10 213:19

214:7 216:13

217:6,14 219:20

222:8,10,12,16

225:22 228:4

229:10

professional 5:14

81:11

progress 159:3

prohibit 115:15

Project 2:16 11:6

projected 29:18

pronounce 126:8

propane 14:1

proposal 50:8 75:8

135:22 139:5

156:21 167:11

175:2

propose 63:19

80:22 108:14

111:7 131:14

191:4 229:7

proposed 63:14

102:14,15,16,18

102:21 103:2,3,7

103:9 104:17,18

105:6,10,12,12,16

106:16 108:13,18

108:19 109:2,3

110:2,3 111:6

127:7,8 128:6

131:16 138:17

140:11 150:1

151:3 153:14

154:2 157:11

158:11 161:10

166:17 171:15,17

179:17 187:16

189:1 217:15

proposing 102:19

155:11 168:4

185:13 193:10

202:11 227:5

protocol 25:20

provide 79:1 82:7

115:8 147:20

156:20 173:18

191:9

provided 217:9

provision 133:11

177:8 185:3

provisions 114:18

115:1 132:7

224:19,20 225:2

proxy 94:21 96:5,11

public 1:1 6:4,4,5

14:10 22:22 23:20

24:2 53:3 63:16

90:13,14,15

105:22 112:11

115:10 126:11

127:16 129:11

130:11 138:22

196:14

publication 104:4

publications 11:15

published 16:20

129:13

publishing 104:19

pull 69:8 178:2

pump 130:19,20,21

pumping 131:2

punt 110:17

pure 62:13

purpose 6:11 26:8

83:10 229:2

purposes 139:16

201:6 216:11

pursue 203:1

purview 205:16

219:11

push 72:1 76:2

118:6

put 15:13,20 35:4

35:12,15 40:6,19

63:15 68:22 80:17

95:14 96:4 98:15

111:19 112:3

118:9 136:12

142:12 153:21,22

155:5 158:19

181:13 189:12,17

203:16 206:1,6,10

207:8 211:14

214:14,16 215:4

227:14

puts 15:17

putting 27:5 136:3

154:6 206:8,14

213:20

Q

qualification 191:10

qualifies 203:6

qualify 191:3 205:8

qualifying 74:22

189:17 192:4

question 7:14 35:20

35:21 37:6 40:20

41:19 44:9 52:6

58:2 70:6 80:15

83:2 86:12 87:6

93:5 94:13 100:13

113:1 115:6 134:3

134:21 136:15

142:17 145:3

147:1 157:19

163:11 169:17

177:5,10,15,20

182:6 184:21

185:22 189:5

192:3,21 195:16

202:19 211:7

212:17,19 214:13

215:12,20 221:16

223:8,13 224:15

226:21 228:3

questioned 194:14

questioning 39:21

questions 27:14

28:5 33:18 43:14

48:13 52:2 53:10

55:1 78:7 81:13

84:19 98:5 116:11

128:7,15 134:22

138:7 147:4 153:3

155:1,18 194:15

211:13

quick 3:12 6:16

17:12 32:22 36:3

60:12 64:11 87:5

110:17 127:5

129:11 163:11

165:5 195:16

223:19

quicker 32:2

quickly 121:13,18

quite 10:4 15:22

16:3 18:1 31:16

43:20 94:4 127:6

138:4 141:20

164:12 196:9

205:19

quorum 26:5 32:4

32:15 54:16 58:16

69:15,21 70:11,14

71:2 74:1,1,13

76:21 77:3,9,18

78:7 81:17,21

92:14,17

R

R 3:1

raise 33:17 80:9

raised 208:14

RAMERIZ 13:9

Ramirez 2:3 4:11

14:12,13 17:1,4

30:18 31:19 32:1

32:20 33:16 34:5

37:19 39:6,13,16

40:4,14 41:8,17

41:20 42:12,21

43:12,18 44:20

45:5,8,13,20

46:10 47:21 48:3

50:11,14,21 51:7

51:22 52:2,6,14

53:10,13 54:2,12

55:13 56:6,14,16

57:21 58:5,14

59:3,8,10 60:1,4

60:19 61:1 62:1

65:14 66:5,11,21

67:2,13,20 68:3,7

68:9 69:2,7,16

70:6 71:10 72:1,7

72:14,19,22 73:14

73:20 74:10,12,16

75:20 76:14,18

77:1,4 78:12 79:9

79:15 80:6,19

81:13,16,19 82:3

83:1,4,16 84:5,14

84:19 85:22 86:3

87:2,13 88:13,18

89:13 90:2,11,22

91:4,8,14,21 92:7

92:9,19 93:7,16

94:1,10,18 95:2,8

95:21 96:9 97:8

97:12,20 98:5,8

98:11,14 99:9,14

99:17 100:3,6,10

101:6,12,14,18,21

102:6 103:10,15

106:14 107:1,7,10

107:20 108:5,11

108:22 109:5,8,18

110:6,13 111:13

111:18 112:15,18

113:6,16,19 114:2

114:10 115:5

116:6,9,14,18,21

117:2,6,14,18

118:2,5,20 120:6

120:16 122:2,10

122:20 123:1,3,6

123:12,19 124:19

125:1,10,22

126:17,22 127:4

127:14,22 128:9

128:15,19 129:5

134:9,22 136:6

137:14 138:5

141:13 142:16

143:9 144:9

145:12 146:2,13

146:17 147:12

148:2,16 153:3

155:1,18 157:1,18

164:4 165:19

171:11 173:22

174:8 176:15

177:21 178:12

180:3 184:19
ASRAC Miscellaneous Refrigeration Working Group Meeting

May 4, 2015

202-347-3700 Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. 866-928-6509

Page 252

192:16 196:19

197:16 199:22

200:12 202:7,18

204:17 206:18

208:2,10,17 209:1

211:2 212:2,13

213:1,12 214:5,19

215:1,7,16 218:16

220:13,20 221:11

221:13 222:3

223:1,15 224:2

225:10 227:12

229:18 230:11

231:9,12,16

232:15 233:19,22

234:6

range 41:9 132:5

139:14,17 182:12

ranges 136:12

rashly 166:18

rate 161:2

rated 187:2 198:17

198:19

rating 161:15,21

211:7

rationale 175:6

re-check 77:7

re-look 111:11

re-thumb 128:10

re-vote 97:18 129:3

reach 5:19 20:9

22:1 54:13 65:15

67:14 83:11 88:21

157:20 160:15,16

169:11

reached 18:18 33:7

38:3 48:9

reaching 66:18

read 31:2,4 32:5,13

39:12 81:3 82:21

114:20 134:6

135:3,4 154:5

198:9 200:17

reader 82:22

readily 8:7

reading 31:17 46:20

118:9 198:13

reads 84:18 91:7

134:16

ready 3:7 30:10

208:21 215:5

real 6:16 46:5 60:12

106:2 110:17

127:20 165:5

realistic 120:17

realistically 128:5

reality 192:10

200:20

realize 165:22

201:12

really 5:17 7:3

10:15,17 15:4

25:18 29:6 31:16

42:10 43:2,16

56:19 65:12 68:17

76:13 82:18 89:9

93:18 95:14 106:4

108:17 115:20

118:15 127:5,22

128:4 147:10,20

148:13 157:8

158:20 160:5

163:5,6 168:14

181:1 182:17

186:9 193:4,11

197:3 203:5

205:17 206:9

217:8,19 219:19

228:15

realm 217:13

rearrange 78:18

79:12

reason 39:9,10

71:11 78:15 145:1

148:9 157:7 163:1

164:7 166:10

171:6 185:13

213:7 233:7

reasonable 71:13

173:10,15

reasoning 156:15

167:21

reasons 136:20

162:1 166:13

179:22 184:2,3

193:14

recall 211:17,18,21

recaps 148:22

received 140:21

150:22 151:11

211:8

recess 56:5 127:3

178:11 224:3

recognizing 181:13

recommend 62:22

63:7,12,14 142:10

227:8

recommendation

18:17,20 28:15,18

48:15 62:22 63:22

113:8

recommendations

16:2 107:13,14,18

108:4 115:9,9,14

recommended

64:22

record 50:5 56:12

113:14 234:10,11

recorded 37:10

114:17 221:1

recording 113:4,16

113:20,21

recourse 18:21

reduced 76:16

reducing 183:5

189:7

refer 90:9 110:2

reference 190:14

referring 88:16 96:5

98:22 110:1 152:4

170:5

refers 88:10 96:6

143:21

reflect 47:18 81:22

103:6 174:5

reflected 179:12,18

reflection 12:6

176:13

reflective 183:3

refresher 129:11,17

131:10

refrigerant 134:17

refrigerate 206:7

refrigerated 131:11

131:15 132:12,15

133:6

refrigeration 1:2

3:8 7:7 8:19 10:10

12:10,19 13:21

18:7 62:16,21

63:5 130:4,8

131:7,11,12,17,18

131:19,21 132:2,8

132:9,18 133:2,7

139:22 143:15,22

144:5 147:3

154:13 156:5,11

159:2,11 166:16

167:4 168:3

171:12 213:19

214:7 217:14

223:11

refrigeration/free...

48:22

refrigerator 11:19

12:14 131:14,19

131:20 132:10,15

132:16,17 133:6,8

137:3,8,18,20,21

137:22 143:18,18

144:22,22 145:8

147:9,18 149:17

150:11 151:10,18

151:18 153:14,20

153:21 154:1,8,15

154:16,18,19

163:14 167:16,16

168:2 171:13,13

171:19 173:10,12

173:16,19 177:6

177:13,13 178:22

178:22 179:21

180:20 181:2,6,7

182:8,8,16,16,17

186:1,11,11

188:20 189:18,19

190:20 193:17

199:17 200:2

201:1,1,15,15

202:4,5 203:2,3,5

204:8 205:4,6

206:1 209:11,12

209:21 212:5,5,8

212:8 213:3,10,22

214:8,9,15,17,18

214:18,22 216:3

216:11,16,22

217:3,4,5 218:8,9

218:11 219:8

220:2,2,3 223:9

223:10 225:5

226:17 229:8,11

229:13,14,17

refrigerator/freez...

130:5

refrigerators 9:1,15

14:1 44:18 46:17

46:22 47:4 52:12

52:17,21 53:19

130:5 131:9,22

137:6,13 140:17

147:5,17,18

149:14,17 150:16

150:19,20 151:10

153:7 154:4,12

155:8,9 158:1

160:22 168:1,21

169:13 171:19

173:14 175:7

177:6 179:21

186:1 188:19

189:2 192:12

197:7,22 199:15

199:16,20,21

204:10 210:18,18

213:2,3,21 214:3

215:13,20 216:2

216:22 219:7

220:4 221:8 225:5

226:17 227:6,9

reg 4:22 5:1 39:14

41:5 114:14

regard 99:8 180:14

regarding 83:12,21

regardless 174:10

195:1

regards 178:21

179:16 180:5

210:5

Register 88:14

129:13

regs 9:4 182:12

186:11 193:17

201:1 211:5 219:9

regular 163:14

regulate 222:12

regulated 212:7

regulates 174:4

regulation 142:3

195:20 219:3

227:14

regulations 7:9

19:14 105:11

197:10 207:18

regulatory 37:21

105:7 186:18

216:13 219:12

220:1,7,10 224:17

225:4 226:11,22

228:18

reiterate 64:2

relate 139:10

relates 3:13 209:20

relationship 130:3

relatively 157:22

released 134:8

rely 158:22

remain 184:3

remaining 34:14

132:13

remand 27:20

remember 63:13

77:20 88:18

remembered 145:1

remind 16:12 40:5

97:15,16 155:6

remote 76:11 156:3

remotely 232:19

renew 114:22

repeat 52:14 95:8
ASRAC Miscellaneous Refrigeration Working Group Meeting

May 4, 2015

202-347-3700 Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. 866-928-6509

Page 253

108:22 110:14

repeatability

148:10 183:6

repeatable 148:7

replace 21:4

replicate 163:2

report 10:8

reporter 15:9

represent 10:13

12:7 24:3 64:4

89:4 162:21 171:9

174:18 175:21

199:8

representation 62:5

63:18 88:8,12

representative 26:1

44:14 64:10

120:22 162:18

181:19 182:3

183:19,20 185:16

199:6

representativeness

162:17

representatives

10:7 43:4

represented 39:1

46:6,6 66:15

78:11

representing 49:19

70:10 74:20 89:5

175:9

represents 52:20

53:7

reps 86:21

request 64:3 120:8

request-by-request

122:3

requests 120:17

require 136:20

142:12 150:5

151:5 184:12

187:18 193:10

205:18

required 138:18

186:16 192:13

229:4

requirement 70:18

89:3 97:7 190:15

196:1

requirements 29:10

88:9,12 141:19

206:15 224:12

requires 132:20

192:10

requiring 132:2

reservations 75:15

158:15

reservoirs 150:7

residential 138:3

140:16 142:2

156:11 189:18

resolution 13:15

19:15,18

resolve 18:16

resolved 74:21

resource 158:22

respects 109:15

response 52:1 53:12

60:3 81:15 82:14

83:18 98:7 99:13

101:17 109:7

112:11 116:13

117:13 123:2

127:13,15 128:8

133:17 141:1

220:19 221:14,14

responsibility 35:17

36:16 86:14 112:1

112:3 186:18,19

responsible 12:18

105:5,9 121:19

rest 82:6 129:9

143:14 145:19

159:18 160:4

restate 16:12 35:21

136:9 188:8

restating 59:18

restrooms 17:7

resubmit 73:15,16

result 202:22

results 185:16,17

reverse 39:20

106:15

review 98:4,13

120:4 121:6

reviewed 133:19

reviewing 121:16,16

138:7

reviews 108:10

112:17 116:20

117:5 128:14

revision 213:9

revisions 152:20

revisit 54:18 80:12

124:20

reword 69:13

Rich 13:3,3

Richard 2:21

Rick 76:14 79:4

rid 186:17

right 3:22 5:12,18

7:19 8:9 14:10,16

14:19 16:5 17:4,5

17:14 19:5 22:18

24:14 30:16,16,20

30:21 32:20 34:3

34:9,14,15 35:11

37:5 41:8,12 42:1

42:13,15 44:3,20

45:7 48:3,13

50:14,21 56:14

57:19 58:16 59:21

60:4,14 61:4

65:14,17 66:6

67:3,15 68:7

71:10,14,17 73:6

77:22 80:15 81:8

81:16 82:3,10,11

84:6,9,9,19 85:11

85:18 86:1 87:2

89:17,22 90:5,22

91:4,14 93:7 96:9

96:10 97:20 98:2

98:14 99:10,14

100:18 101:2,4,8

101:14,18 103:11

104:2 106:19

107:1 108:6 109:8

109:18 110:7,13

110:14,21 111:18

112:8,18 113:12

114:10 116:2,3,4

116:6,10,14,18

117:2 119:22

122:10 123:3,9,12

124:14 125:12

127:4,14,21 129:6

130:2,19 131:3,10

135:8,13 138:5

139:18 140:3

142:14 143:1,3,4

143:6 145:12

146:6,17,19

147:11 150:2

155:8 157:10,19

158:3 164:1 165:9

167:11 168:22

170:6 172:14

178:12 180:3

182:10 186:2

187:5 188:2 189:1

191:11,20 192:12

193:12 195:8,18

196:2,7,17 198:10

200:21 202:18

204:6,11 209:1,2

209:19 210:1,16

212:18 214:7

215:1,5,13,22

217:7 220:13

225:20 226:9,10

230:3 232:16

233:17 234:6

right-hand 176:22

road 27:12

robustness 162:3

Roland 2:22 8:15

39:7 48:18 49:9

58:18 66:11 91:16

91:17 98:18

role 4:12 6:3

roll 35:11

rolling 71:16

ROMs 7:18

room 1:7 4:20 6:6

6:10 8:1 23:7 36:4

40:21 44:13 47:14

116:1 162:20

184:9,15 197:12

199:2 205:22

206:2 208:9

229:15

rooms 204:9

Rosenstock 2:19

13:18,18

roughly 181:17

route 213:17

rule 3:5,18 6:19

8:13 10:18 12:19

18:14,16 19:1

20:11,11,15,17,20

21:21 22:14 23:18

25:16,19 26:9

28:22 29:16 30:2

30:4 63:14 102:14

102:15,17,18,21

103:2,3 104:1,3,5

104:9,15,22 105:7

105:21 106:5,13

106:17,19 108:13

108:14,18,19

109:2,3 111:6,7

113:8,9 115:3,11

115:13 127:8

128:6 139:14

142:9 157:11

189:1 207:8 220:3

226:1

ruled 161:6

rulemaking 5:2,13

6:1 9:6 10:14 12:4

13:21 17:18,21

20:7 21:17,18

26:11 28:21 29:12

31:2 43:10 102:5

103:7,8,9 104:5

104:17,18 110:2,3

137:10 140:16

144:6,18 160:20

161:7 166:16

168:1,1,3 177:19

202:13 226:5,12

227:9,11 228:6

229:14

rulemakings 19:21

rules 5:8,11 9:9

17:13 25:20 26:15

30:17,19 31:1,11

32:6,12 39:8,13

54:10 69:2 82:6

105:16 106:1

108:3 126:18,20

127:6,10 128:17

129:3 182:7 201:6

221:6 226:8

run 55:9 160:7,8,11

165:15,16 170:1

179:22 186:15,16

191:5 222:1

running 9:20

S

S 3:1

safe 174:14 206:2

safety 134:18

136:20 206:9

207:7

sand 192:4

sanity 109:18

Sarah 2:7 30:8

102:13 103:4

104:14 109:20,21

155:17 177:3,4

224:4

satisfied 166:11

satisfy 8:22 132:14

184:15 195:22

Saturday 231:21

save 8:2

saves 11:4

savings 29:18,19

saw 6:12 102:8

190:21

saying 33:7 34:2

39:21 40:10 58:12

58:20 60:15 87:6

95:19 98:19

102:22 104:16

112:6 113:13

135:16 137:1
ASRAC Miscellaneous Refrigeration Working Group Meeting

May 4, 2015

202-347-3700 Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. 866-928-6509

Page 254

157:4 160:18

165:1,5,6,7

179:18 193:9

199:5 215:4

sayings 39:21

says 80:21 81:7

88:14 102:4,7

136:4 137:12

153:7 155:20

190:16 198:21

222:6

Schaefer 2:20 9:11

9:12 49:6 54:3

148:3,3

Schafer 49:6 54:3

schedule 5:11 17:6

122:7 125:3 225:7

225:22 228:20

schedules 24:19

219:12,15 226:16

226:21

scheduling 225:11

schematic 24:1

scope 5:22 13:20

14:4 25:20 43:9

43:14,18 44:3

51:19 128:20,21

129:2,22 146:10

178:21 179:3,6

181:10 186:2

187:6 190:7,12

191:3 192:4,6

193:19 201:2,7,13

209:20 216:11

219:21

scoping 129:10

score 4:16 22:3 23:9

Scott 13:6

scratch 104:3

screen 69:1 91:9

142:22

search 111:13

second 3:14 9:4

18:2 69:7 88:7

95:10 109:17

139:13 155:20

169:19 206:9

208:5 223:6,14

Secretary 29:21

62:22 63:1,7,8,15

63:19,21

section 69:4,15

81:20 88:11 89:19

103:13 114:6,9

167:12 198:15

216:17

section-by-section

126:19

sections 114:16

sector 43:4 78:9

sectors 43:11 75:1

see 4:13 9:7 11:3

12:2 15:12 22:21

26:15 28:17 30:1

32:1 35:3 36:21

40:12 41:9,13,20

44:20 55:14,15

56:3 58:18 60:7

61:3,5,9 62:4

65:21 66:2,5,8

67:11,16,20 68:3

68:13,14,15 72:14

74:12 77:7,8

81:16,20 82:8

83:4 84:6 89:22

91:1,14 93:7 97:9

98:8 99:2,6,14

100:11 101:18

106:4 109:8

110:22 111:13,21

113:12 116:14,21

117:6 121:4 123:3

123:9 125:2

126:18,20,22

128:16 134:6

136:2 138:13

148:7,14 149:7

160:9 161:19

169:22 177:22

178:2,4 179:2

180:21 181:5,9,15

181:16,20 182:18

188:3,6 196:18

198:8 202:7 204:1

204:5,13,15

206:21 207:14,15

210:5 220:16,21

227:22 233:4

seeing 9:18 138:5

189:16

seen 67:6 120:11

148:21 165:15

sees 180:21

segment 39:3

selected 71:13

self-contained

156:5

sell 7:19 12:1 45:19

48:1,12,14 50:1

52:17 53:9 187:3

195:17 196:11

seller 139:21

selling 7:10 51:3,5

193:21 196:2,5,8

203:2

sells 8:11 47:11

57:18

send 16:17 70:9

73:2,12 85:7,16

85:20 87:15 93:5

103:19 118:1

119:7 121:12,15

128:11 190:13

sending 87:7 92:3

117:10,19 118:3

sends 119:8

senior 12:17

sense 23:7 37:1

84:22 93:1 96:14

126:4 143:10,11

156:17 157:5,18

193:4 196:17

201:21 228:19

229:1

sent 118:21 119:21

sentence 84:1 87:21

88:3 89:8,14

95:11 105:3

109:22 117:7,16

127:20

separate 28:22 63:2

65:13 127:9 154:3

214:17 217:13

218:2 219:14

224:7,22 225:3

228:17

separated 96:10

128:3,3 155:22

separately 63:2

128:7 179:3 216:8

226:20 229:4

separates 223:9

separating 151:6,7

199:14

separation 46:3

156:2

serious 28:16 49:15

206:13

serve 73:10 140:6

served 75:5

Service 2:4,6 4:10

19:10

set 3:5 8:6 24:18

81:11 122:6 142:9

142:10 152:9

173:4 186:8

201:20 220:5

225:21 227:5

228:20 229:13

232:5

sets 115:11

setting 5:12 10:7

24:14 145:4 226:3

229:16

settings 6:2

seven 29:11 30:1

123:6,10

shared 20:13

she'd 56:10

sheet 18:11,12,13

25:18 29:14 83:21

91:11 98:16 100:4

105:5,9 114:15,16

114:18,19,21

115:2,18,22

sheets 29:15

short 56:5 122:14

129:8,15 178:11

224:3

shortly 26:4 122:9

should've 106:7

show 5:3 36:21

41:10,13,20 44:11

44:21 55:14,15

60:6 61:9 65:21

66:2,8 67:16,16

67:21,22 68:3

72:14 74:12 77:8

83:4 84:6 89:22

91:1,12,15 93:8

97:9 98:8 99:14

100:11 101:18

109:8 111:16

116:15,21 119:11

123:3,9 126:18,20

128:16 220:21

shows 149:5

sic 117:22 189:8

side 11:14 12:22

13:8 14:6 15:11

15:14 16:19 91:18

204:18 214:11

215:14,14

side-sliding 204:5

207:10

sideways 34:19,21

35:13 56:13,22

57:2 65:19 68:13

76:6 113:21

signal 14:19,20

signals 22:21

significantly 80:8

signs 125:17,18

silence 157:8

similar 8:20 51:11

126:11 130:18

143:18 151:9

152:9 195:21

199:17 210:13

simple 184:11

simply 63:6

simulate 164:16

181:22 197:12

199:2

simulates 197:15

200:18

simultaneously

148:13

single 149:8,14

153:7 172:16

sit 15:19

sitting 61:16

situation 61:9 71:15

92:17 122:3

160:14,19 194:17

204:21 211:14

situations 93:5

166:8

six 3:21 117:3

122:11 123:4

size 38:9 39:16

54:18 150:15

sizes 149:10

skills 19:12

slice 217:9

slide 17:21,22 19:7

20:4 21:2,9 22:5

22:15 23:10,21

24:12,21 25:9

26:7,19 33:15

34:4 134:14

137:12 139:10

149:4,5,12 150:4

153:5 154:10

155:20 222:5

slides 32:21 134:12

146:12

slight 198:7

slightly 26:13

small 19:8 25:1

53:20 148:11

189:12

smaller 25:1,4 41:5

75:18

smiling 196:18

SNOPR 105:13

soft 206:5

sold 196:14

solid 130:20 152:5

Solutions 2:11
ASRAC Miscellaneous Refrigeration Working Group Meeting

May 4, 2015

202-347-3700 Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. 866-928-6509

Page 255

solve 37:16 62:3

174:6

solved 174:7

somebody 4:5 23:1

36:10 58:10,20

59:7 80:14 90:16

90:19 94:21 98:20

121:16 179:15

someone's 70:21

somewhat 40:11

109:12 160:20

212:16

soon 16:20 117:11

117:21 120:10

121:12 128:12

195:4

sooner 79:15

sorry 3:10 52:14

77:11 78:6 80:18

83:5 91:16,22

93:9 100:12 109:1

126:2 127:18

137:14 199:20

203:12 207:14

214:13 216:1

221:5 230:9 231:1

sort 4:13 41:1 63:10

64:8 70:22 71:17

129:17 139:19

196:16 204:14

223:9 228:2

sorts 166:7

sought 159:10

sound 38:15 119:15

sounded 119:16

sounds 33:22 44:7

101:4 108:15

158:3 173:8

177:17 194:3,6,7

202:20 204:14

205:9 224:1

source 132:2,18

133:2

Southern 10:21

spaced 35:19

spark 111:20

speak 15:8,12 16:12

40:5,7 53:5 61:17

speaking 50:19

181:18 219:7

special 66:14 93:12

93:21,21 94:5,9

94:11 148:15

specific 86:10

108:18 151:14

189:15 222:14

specifically 64:21

96:2,5 149:2,20

152:4 194:15

198:21 213:2

222:5,7

specificity 165:10

speculation 106:7,7

106:10,22

speculative 105:1

speech 113:13

spend 129:18

sphere 41:1 174:4

216:13

split 151:12 152:22

153:2 155:11

splits 151:9

spoke 154:11

spot 155:5 158:20

228:14

staff 6:9 105:4

stage 24:14

stake 10:1 21:21

stakeholder 139:13

139:18,20 140:10

stakeholders 20:9,9

24:2 53:21 109:12

134:7 138:17

140:4 151:1,4,19

152:1

stalemated 67:9

stance 64:14

stand 66:2 218:4

standard 6:2 9:19

11:3 18:6 30:22

55:6,9,11 63:17

65:3,6 102:2,3

107:15 109:16

111:7,10 139:6

140:11 142:9,10

148:8 150:15,17

151:8 156:19

168:8 176:19

186:12 202:15,16

204:21 205:4,9

227:15

standard/compact

155:22

standardized

161:14

standards 2:16 8:6

10:22 11:6,7,10

11:14,17 12:2,15

17:17,20 63:7,12

81:12 83:13,22

102:17,22 107:3

107:18 108:16,19

109:2,14 114:8

127:9 128:6

138:19 139:3

140:18 141:21

145:4 186:7,8

201:4,20 202:2

209:2,16 213:10

214:2,3 216:21

217:10 218:8,9,11

218:21 220:4

226:4,16 227:6,19

228:22 229:8,8,11

229:13,17

standpoint 201:18

225:3

star 73:18

start 3:7 6:13 9:19

13:10 31:4 32:18

34:9 41:22 44:1

69:3 82:16 129:2

133:15 135:17

157:13,15 158:6

166:12 189:6

230:14 232:19

started 130:1

133:16 162:6

starting 38:7 95:6

95:11 111:19

230:17

state 35:18 112:4

130:20 211:5

stated 43:16 69:12

78:15 86:7 140:6

182:7 201:5

statement 6:20

103:13 144:3

198:16 200:18

211:4

statements 6:18

193:16

states 197:11

statewide 10:22

stating 39:22

statute 145:8

224:10,19

statutory 145:4

177:8 220:11

227:1

stay 230:21

stead 73:10

steamroll 111:20

steamroller 111:20

Stem 14:5,5

step 214:6

Stephen 2:20 9:12

49:6 54:3 145:13

146:20 147:13

148:2

stepping 178:8

Steve 13:18 148:3

Steven 2:19

sticks 67:14

stipulate 54:10

stop 67:1,4 146:9

stops 148:9

storage 12:12

130:15,15 131:3

138:19 149:22,22

150:8,10 174:14

177:14 182:4,10

183:2 210:3,9

store 131:1 144:13

181:14

storing 133:12,12

straight 65:6

105:18,21

straw 77:22

strengthen 68:15

strike 104:12 117:7

strikes 118:9

striking 94:10

strong 11:9 227:3

stronger 35:7,9

struck 102:8

structure 79:2 80:8

82:7 131:16 178:5

187:5

study 90:20

stuff 15:3 104:10

108:8 114:9

119:14 233:15

style 110:8

sub-compartment

160:9

Sub-Zero 2:21 12:8

12:9 27:16 50:3

53:8 79:5 93:10

109:10 145:14

158:5 165:20

191:14 212:3

215:8

subcategories 130:9

subcommittee

11:16 99:3,4,5

subgroup 98:17

99:11

subgroups 98:20

99:1

subject 214:2

229:12

subjected 201:3

submitted 87:9

subsequent 24:15

63:9 175:19

217:16

subset 217:2

substance 110:8,12

substitute 88:5

92:13,14

substitutive 110:7

Subway 125:12

success 20:1

successful 27:19

sudden 183:21

sufficient 8:7

195:13

sufficiently 140:7

suggest 25:3 73:14

79:10 135:17

177:21

suggested 60:17

113:11 175:5

suggesting 39:12

166:1 200:1

suggestion 44:5

46:1 59:16 124:19

197:19 198:3

223:16

suggestions 151:6

summaries 117:7

117:17 118:7,14

122:22

summarize 179:15

180:4

summarized 13:4

181:9 182:1

summary 122:14

summer 4:1 20:3

Sunday 100:8

super 38:7 69:18

74:3 80:4,10

127:20

supplemental 102:5

102:7,8,12,12,14

102:16 103:3,8

104:17 105:6

106:17 108:14,19

109:3 110:3 111:6

119:20

supply 150:6,7

support 12:22 22:3

33:12,14 34:12

112:12 127:17

supporting 105:7

105:11

supposed 60:5

119:6

suppressions 8:18
ASRAC Miscellaneous Refrigeration Working Group Meeting

May 4, 2015

202-347-3700 Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. 866-928-6509

Page 256

sure 9:21,22 14:20

15:7,9 23:3,8,12

26:5 29:11 31:11

33:3,17 40:20

41:2 46:17 51:3

54:16 56:12 57:13

60:20 65:19 69:9

72:5 74:19 76:3

79:19 82:20 83:13

87:11 93:21 97:20

108:9 110:9 114:3

114:11 115:4

116:10 119:17

122:7,14 128:11

134:13 138:15

153:19 155:13

156:21 158:19

160:5 170:20

171:5 190:8 193:2

194:4,5 198:20

202:20 208:21

211:11 213:10

229:4

surge 8:18

surrounding 211:13

sustain 136:13

148:12

SW 1:8

switch 42:13

system 15:12 217:3

systems 11:13

221:21 226:18

228:10,11,12

T

table 15:13,16

35:15 40:6 47:17

48:7 53:5,6 61:16

62:5 63:19 67:8

188:4 203:16

227:18,21

take 14:17,21 15:3

16:9 17:1 28:15

31:13,15,16,17

35:4,9 36:5 40:3

65:7 80:5 84:10

84:15 91:11 96:15

97:13 110:19

113:12 116:19

117:2,16 118:8,11

123:21 125:5

128:9 129:3

139:10 142:21

143:3 158:9 178:1

183:10 207:13

209:18 219:5

220:15 223:20

taken 42:4 56:5

66:4,10 68:2,6

72:12,21 74:15

81:18 84:8 90:1

91:3 97:11 98:10

99:16 101:20

111:17 116:17

117:1 122:16,18

123:5,11 127:3

128:18 178:11

217:18 224:3

takes 31:19 54:1

119:13

talk 5:9 23:1 26:22

33:21 37:19 58:15

61:13 69:15 78:10

78:20 111:10

155:12 157:16

159:8 167:11

198:3,4 203:18

212:5 217:19

talked 29:6 32:7

77:13

talking 29:7 31:18

37:7 39:9 45:11

59:11 62:14 83:9

88:1,2 93:12

107:5 110:7

115:20 123:7,18

153:5 157:9,14

167:10,14,15

173:9,22 188:5

197:21,22 209:9

209:14 212:6

213:1 214:20

222:7,11,14,15,18

228:1,15 233:15

talks 77:12 88:11

target 185:1,4

task 18:18

tasked 18:5,22

tasks 44:2

team 10:22,22

133:19 134:4

technical 11:12,16

11:17 24:2 48:13

126:8 134:3,4

146:8 156:22

228:7

Technically 34:22

technologies 65:8

221:19

technology 64:15

65:13,20 147:20

174:11 224:8,19

tee 145:21

telegram 96:8

telephone 94:9

95:13 96:8,21

tell 24:10 27:14

28:11 35:2 36:10

76:5 138:12

142:13 170:18

210:19 219:4

telling 163:7

tells 134:20

temperature 36:20

41:16,22 55:16

111:1 136:12

137:7 139:18

141:7 142:21

143:3,6 158:13

160:10,15 161:4

161:14,15 162:5

162:18 163:2

164:15,22 165:8

168:12 169:4

171:2 172:7

174:18 176:3

179:20 183:12

185:4 187:17

190:14 195:5,11

196:1 200:3,8

201:5 208:8,8,9

208:12 209:5

210:21 211:6

212:14,15 220:15

220:21 223:5

temperatures 132:4

132:22 136:15

141:9 150:9 159:1

161:12 162:9

163:21 164:14

165:10 167:19

169:19,21 170:8

170:11 172:21

173:2 174:14

175:3 182:12

185:2,15 188:17

189:3 190:17,20

191:8 194:8 196:7

196:15 198:11

210:4,16 214:1

221:9

tent 15:13,16

tentative 225:13

tents 40:6

term 18:11,12,13

25:18 29:14,15

46:17 83:21 100:4

105:5,9 114:15,16

114:18,19,21

115:1,18,22

160:21 166:21

206:12 208:19

termed 223:11

terms 14:3 19:17

21:11 45:3 115:7

130:18 134:7

158:22 159:2

172:15 191:21

201:2

test 6:2 10:18 11:21

11:22,22 14:6

18:5,22 81:12

83:9,14,15,22

84:3 102:3,6,10

102:15,22 104:7

104:10,11,15,21

105:20 106:2,13

107:4,6,8,9,14,19

108:17,19 109:3

109:14,16 111:6,9

114:8 127:7 128:5

137:3 143:20

146:9,11 147:6,10

148:8,14 149:1

159:11,11,13,17

159:20 160:4,5,8

160:8,12,12,17

161:10 162:1,9,14

163:3,8 164:10,10

164:11,12,16,18

164:20 165:15,16

165:17 166:1,3,3

166:9,12,17 167:3

167:12 168:11,17

169:10,21 170:1,4

174:13 175:2,9,14

176:2,8,12,18

179:3,4,5,7,12,20

180:8,9,11,12,13

180:13 181:21

182:20,20 183:5

184:5,6,13,17

185:9,16,17 186:2

186:4,5,12,16,16

187:7,8 189:13,16

190:4,15 191:4,5

191:19,22 192:20

192:21,22 193:2,8

193:9,10,14 195:7

195:10,11,12,19

195:21 197:12

199:1,1 201:3

207:3 210:15

211:9,20 213:9

216:21 221:22

tested 160:22

167:13 174:11

185:19 189:22

192:11,11,11,12

210:13

testing 159:19

161:4 162:19

165:14 166:5,20

167:5 172:22

175:16 176:11

180:16 181:4

185:13 190:6,14

196:22 197:3,13

198:12 199:4

tests 164:14 169:18

169:18 170:2

192:13 203:4

Texas 9:5

thank 3:15 4:1 7:3

9:10 10:2 11:4

14:4 17:14 28:4,8

30:15 74:11 78:3

79:14 82:2,3 84:6

86:20 117:18

122:22 127:1

181:8 234:12

Thanks 8:14 46:8

48:17 78:4

That'd 93:2

theoretically 221:20

226:10

thermal 41:3 46:4

thermo 46:8,15 47:6

47:15 48:6 52:10

52:18 53:20 55:5

61:15 62:6,18,19

62:20 63:1,4,11

63:13,17 65:5

130:21 142:7,8

149:9 151:6 173:1

175:2 185:18

186:22 190:22

218:10 222:12,18

thermoelectric 7:15

thermostat 184:11

they'd 160:8 203:8

thing 5:8 14:15

54:22 56:17 57:4

58:15 63:13 67:3

78:17 79:10 84:12

103:11 109:15

120:6 127:4

128:20 147:3

152:19 162:8

165:22 172:7
ASRAC Miscellaneous Refrigeration Working Group Meeting

May 4, 2015

202-347-3700 Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. 866-928-6509

Page 257

178:3 179:8

186:21 190:9

205:15 206:17

207:16 218:18

230:2,12

things 8:20 9:8 12:3

13:1 14:6,14

19:14 20:6 26:17

36:18 38:6,12

62:13 65:15 76:2

88:21 92:3 113:3

122:1,15 136:17

144:13 147:8

159:5 164:13

166:19 167:11

177:17 180:17

181:10,14,22

182:4 183:5 207:6

208:1 228:21

231:19

think 3:21 6:12 7:22

8:3 14:9 18:9 22:4

23:13 26:1,1 27:2

28:14,20 29:2,4,5

32:22 35:22 38:14

38:19 40:5,9,12

40:19 41:10 42:8

43:2,10,13,15,16

44:9 48:11 53:4,6

54:2,10 55:22

56:1,17 57:9

58:16,22 59:15,16

60:16 61:3,6,14

66:20 68:8 69:4

69:14 70:14 71:6

71:19 72:10 75:4

75:6 76:12 80:6

82:18 83:19 84:21

85:9,13 86:6,16

86:22 87:21 88:22

89:7 92:19 95:5

96:18 97:2 98:19

99:1 101:1 104:6

104:8,9,22 105:8

105:15 106:3,18

107:4,9,22 108:5

108:13 110:12,18

114:5,20 115:17

120:9 121:5 125:6

125:14 126:6,15

129:15,20 130:10

135:2,3,9,15

137:2 138:10

139:7 143:8,9

144:15 145:10,11

145:18 146:5,14

146:15 147:17,21

147:22 155:7

157:11 158:8,9

162:13 163:15,18

165:21 166:18

167:5 168:13,13

168:20 170:14

172:13,22 173:3

174:10 175:1,4

176:7,9,12 178:13

178:18 179:2,9,12

179:18 180:15

181:9,11,18 182:5

182:19,21 183:17

184:4,22 185:9,21

187:16,20 189:14

191:2,22 193:11

193:14 194:10,13

194:14 195:8,10

196:13,15 197:19

198:1 199:11

200:20 201:10,16

201:22 202:10,21

203:16,18 204:18

204:22 205:2,11

205:16 206:12,12

206:16 207:5,10

207:16,20 208:13

208:16 210:22

213:1 214:5 215:3

216:7 218:6,12,22

221:13 223:7

224:11,14,16

225:8,8 226:14,19

227:2,16,17,18

228:7,8,14,15

229:2,18,19 230:9

230:12 231:17

thinking 20:18

22:19 41:4 55:2

59:16 70:1 208:4

220:18

third 55:10 58:18

63:10 89:14 117:7

165:14 180:10

189:21 190:2

third-party 184:13

190:10,12,13,18

Thirty-nine 134:15

thorough 129:20

thought 32:16 51:9

80:8 145:1 167:6

185:15 192:4

208:17 213:17

thoughts 39:5 40:2

42:20

three 4:6,6 9:20

19:5 26:17 34:12

39:9,17,22 40:11

43:8 49:5 58:8

75:3 76:17 80:11

84:13,16,20 87:3

89:18,20,21 91:5

91:15 93:8 97:13

100:1 112:10

117:3 120:12

127:15,17 131:7

143:17,17 144:7

148:12 231:19,20

233:5 234:7

threshold 137:4

139:21 145:3,4

threw 38:6 233:1

throw 16:1,4 99:9

230:7

throwing 74:2 80:9

thumb 34:1 35:16

35:17,18 36:7,8

36:14,15 42:13,15

56:22 76:5 112:4

112:8 114:2

thumb's 77:5

thumbs 34:17,18,20

36:22 41:10,13,21

55:16 60:6 61:5,9

61:10 65:21 66:2

66:5,8 67:16,17

67:21 68:1,4,13

74:12 77:8 81:17

83:5 84:7 89:22

91:1,12 93:8 97:9

98:8 99:15 100:11

101:19 109:9

111:16,21 116:15

116:21 123:4,9

126:18,20 128:16

220:22

tied 164:2

tight 120:11 121:20

Tim 7:21 9:7 40:16

40:18 70:16 71:5

89:6 94:1,2 105:2

114:12 117:15

145:12 146:20

147:12 172:4

173:7 196:18

202:18 204:17

206:21 216:9

218:18 229:6

Tim's 85:10 203:17

217:1 224:15

time 3:16 4:6 6:8

15:1,18 17:6 18:8

19:22 24:19 31:5

35:12,22 36:1

47:15 55:22 61:19

67:2 72:7 73:21

75:4 81:1 90:15

92:21 97:22

109:13 110:19

118:8,11 120:5

121:3,14,14 122:8

123:9 124:11

125:22 129:18,18

166:11,13 167:1,5

192:1 215:17

216:19 220:5

229:19

timeframe 18:19

121:20

timeline 117:10

timelines 120:11

timer 6:22

times 36:2 37:3

200:11

timetable 5:21

Timothy 2:10

title 103:12

today 3:6 4:2 25:11

51:14 64:17 69:17

73:16 77:22 125:2

129:9 145:11,19

145:20 169:5

190:3 192:5 197:2

212:7,10,11 222:8

222:20 226:18

today's 118:14

told 184:7

tomorrow 72:2,3

125:2 145:20

169:7 225:14

230:2

tonight 230:12

top 211:11

topic 25:2

topics 24:11

Topping 2:21 12:5,6

27:16,16 50:3,3

53:8,8 61:12 62:4

76:15 77:11,16

78:1,4 79:5,5,14

80:18 83:3 93:10

93:10,17,20

100:22 109:10,10

110:10 115:6,19

116:4 145:14,14

158:5,5,19 165:20

165:20 191:14,14

192:9 212:3,3,11

212:19,22 215:8

233:21

total 3:21 29:18

74:8 152:6

totally 57:1 86:8

144:13 158:14

173:21 222:19

touch 27:10 206:20

touchy 211:14

track 15:15 40:6

tracks 127:7

trade 120:21 231:14

traditional 55:10

130:5

Traditionally 64:14

transcript 16:14,15

117:22,22 118:10

transcripts 117:11

117:20 118:4

transient 8:17

translate 182:14

translated 20:22

translates 175:13

translating 105:5,9

transmit 24:5

Traulsen 2:14 9:4

49:1 51:18 55:19

75:11 105:19

112:22 146:21

206:19

travel 70:4

treat 170:1 199:19

199:19

treated 218:19

tried 232:2

trigger 225:18

triggered 225:6

trouble 92:15

troubled 205:21

Troy 12:21 13:4

46:18 133:19

140:21 146:7

148:18 153:9

155:2 161:9 171:6

171:7 172:18

185:7 187:15

215:17

true 2:15 4:8 10:3,9

43:1 49:13 58:1

64:11 79:22

134:15 139:1

141:14

truly 95:17

trust 67:18

try 4:18 5:16 15:14
ASRAC Miscellaneous Refrigeration Working Group Meeting

May 4, 2015

202-347-3700 Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. 866-928-6509

Page 258

15:15 17:5 21:22

22:8 28:8 32:21

47:16 60:8,10

61:8 66:6 68:14

68:15 78:21 79:1

79:12,18 88:21

121:13 122:7

127:22 163:2

174:13 177:22

178:5 223:21

229:20 230:4

231:16

trying 3:10 8:21

29:7 37:17 40:1

54:5 68:17 76:19

81:9 98:1 119:10

121:19 125:14

135:2,2,16 143:2

148:10 157:2

168:20 173:11

176:16,21 179:13

181:22 183:22

189:15,17 190:9

191:3,9 192:19

193:14 196:11

207:2 209:3 214:8

222:12

TST 129:14

turn 15:8,11 55:5

58:3

turnaround 120:9

121:3

turns 200:9

tweak 35:8 82:8

twelve 75:10

twice 65:22 182:20

184:6

two 3:20 4:18 12:13

19:2 26:17 31:13

31:16,19 34:8,13

34:17,19 36:18

39:9 40:12,14,15

41:6,10,13,21

42:2,17 43:8

55:17,18 56:10,13

56:15 58:2,3,5,9

58:17,21,22 59:4

59:6,16,19 60:7

60:15 61:9,10

63:11 65:8,22

67:9,17 68:4,4,10

69:11,11,13 84:2

84:10 87:4 90:4,5

91:2,5,16 94:20

101:22 107:5

108:9 109:6,9

111:16 120:12

125:8 126:12

127:6 128:2 145:5

163:19,21 167:10

167:20 170:1,4

179:13 181:10

207:8 213:21

230:5 233:4

two-thirds 38:8,10

38:15

twofold 178:20

type 7:15 20:20

26:17 48:22 66:17

67:6 124:7 131:2

139:15 143:16

144:1 151:13

152:3,4 160:6

162:15 177:1

216:5,5 220:16

229:21

types 29:13 107:5

130:9 131:8

141:22 145:5

154:8 171:17

209:19

typical 171:9 173:2

173:4 197:12,15

200:9

typically 30:3 31:8

31:12 41:5 119:2

172:22 186:3

220:9

U

U-Line 2:22 8:16

9:1 39:7 48:19

49:10 91:17 98:18

U.S 1:1,6 11:17

159:15

UL 138:19 141:21

191:12

ULCSA 8:22

ultimate 53:15

65:17 209:2

ultimately 61:4

115:11 172:13

186:7,18 187:6

203:8,12,19 226:7

umbrella 13:22

14:2

unable 189:2

unanimous 26:12

37:20,22 67:15

68:9,17

uncertainty 224:18

uncomfortable

61:21

uncooled 149:22

150:8

under-counter 9:1

48:21

understand 9:9

20:21 22:2 23:3,6

24:6 33:1 36:10

43:11,21 44:8

56:18 57:2 67:13

68:12 78:20 93:20

95:17 100:19

110:18 118:8,18

120:19 153:19

156:2 175:6

184:14 186:21

193:15 195:3,19

198:4 207:5 209:9

213:15

understanding 33:2

33:4 43:17,22

107:12 111:14

115:4,8 121:5

137:4 164:4 202:8

214:10 215:6

understood 40:9

unethical 32:9

unique 147:21

152:14 160:4

204:20

unit 132:20 133:3

180:21

units 7:16,20 48:22

65:11 149:10

192:11

unnecessary 160:13

unsure 214:3

223:12

up/down 143:6

usage 140:12

163:16,20,22

172:15

use 21:22 29:12

31:1 77:5 138:19

140:13 142:14

150:7 161:22

163:3 175:9

181:11 182:10

183:1,1,19,20

185:17 196:17

201:8 210:7 211:7

216:5 219:16

users 167:1

usually 31:19 37:20

119:5,7,13 122:2

233:14

utility 29:19 152:14

156:20

V

vague 108:14

valid 33:17 99:5

170:13

value 98:22 122:13

166:22

vapor 46:4 47:5

48:15 49:14,20

50:1,4,9 65:5

149:9 175:2

199:20 211:8

221:21 222:8,16

variability 163:4

variable 172:16

variances 106:3

variety 179:22

181:16 182:4

various 19:17

verbally 76:5

verbiage 128:1

verified 192:15

versus 46:4,16 47:9

51:2 197:21

204:18 208:9,11

209:5 219:16

veto 37:15

vetted 115:10

vetting 166:5

viable 231:5,6

Vic 61:11

view 53:22 156:15

163:6,9 168:15

183:18 184:2

views 59:1

violation 203:7

voltage 8:18

volume 132:12

140:14 151:8

152:6

volunteering 23:16

vote 18:3 31:10 37:9

37:9 41:15 42:4,5

42:10 54:11 55:16

55:17 56:21,22

57:11,20 58:10

59:19 60:13 65:19

66:4,7,10,13,17

67:3,21 68:2,6

72:12,21 73:5

74:15 76:3,4,19

76:22 77:7 78:9

78:10,14 79:7

81:18 84:8 85:17

86:14 90:1 91:3

93:4,6,14,16

94:22 97:11,17

98:10 99:16

101:20 106:5,13

111:17 113:4,15

113:15 114:16,19

114:21 116:17

117:1 123:5,11

128:18 143:2

207:14 212:15,15

215:5

voted 18:4 58:17

69:4 86:5,7,9,13

123:16

votes 33:5,6 40:13

40:15 41:7 56:11

58:3,3,5,8,9 59:4

59:6,17,20 60:15

61:10 66:1 68:4,4

68:10 69:11 72:13

78:13 82:16 111:1

111:1 113:17

114:16 122:16

voting 59:7 60:18

70:10 72:18 74:19

75:22 76:16 77:12

93:12,13,21 94:5

94:6,8,9,9,21

95:13 96:6,6,11

96:11,16,18,20

208:5,7,7,11

W

W 2:5

Wade 13:16

wait 55:20

waiting 220:16

233:8

waiver 186:17

207:19,20,21

210:20,20 211:5

211:17

waivers 211:8

walk 82:5 125:19

walking 112:6

want 6:19 8:2 9:22

10:14,17 11:3

14:13 15:12 17:10

25:2 26:5 29:9,10

33:17,18 36:2,5

40:12 42:15 44:7

51:3 57:5 58:14

59:13 65:7,18

67:3,11 69:12,14

70:8,20 71:14
ASRAC Miscellaneous Refrigeration Working Group Meeting

May 4, 2015

202-347-3700 Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. 866-928-6509

Page 259

74:19 75:20 80:17

82:15,20 84:11

85:3,14 90:7 92:9

94:21 97:1 98:15

99:7 104:9,22

108:17 110:8

111:6 112:1,6

113:19 115:3,22

118:6 123:15

128:9 129:3

146:18 147:7

177:21 178:1

193:1,1,13 194:9

195:8 199:18

200:6,7,12 203:1

203:19 209:9

213:10,14 214:14

219:20 225:8

226:20 231:16

wanted 40:5 56:10

56:12 57:13 59:3

66:15 71:11 78:1

87:11 90:16 95:14

110:15 116:9

119:17 127:5

177:2,8 196:12

206:20 207:8

218:15 230:7

wanting 213:7

wants 40:7 60:22

81:4

warm 159:22

warmest 164:17

Washington 1:9

wasn't 35:19,20

93:21 127:6

water 58:9 130:22

140:14 150:6,7,8

Watson 12:21,21

47:5 52:4 111:4

134:1 148:18,18

149:5,13 150:5

153:9,9,19 154:2

154:10,20 161:8,9

171:7,7,15 172:9

172:18,18 185:7,7

187:15,15

way 15:9,21 17:7

35:6 36:22 37:5

40:6 43:21 61:7

65:12 68:19 73:16

82:7 90:11 92:19

107:21 109:19

111:5 112:7

114:14 125:15

126:3 127:9 136:2

141:4 142:18

152:18 155:6,15

157:10 173:11,13

173:16 174:7,12

174:20 177:9

186:3 199:19

202:6 209:19

210:22 211:15

218:22 219:1,11

226:15 229:16

Wayne 31:5

ways 9:8 21:15 34:8

62:18 63:20

we'll 3:21 4:11,21

5:5,22 6:3,8 14:16

14:20,21 15:6,14

15:15,22 16:3

17:5 23:3 24:15

25:4 26:4,10,14

27:10,11 29:6

30:3,17 31:10,14

31:17,21 32:3

37:8 42:1 46:11

46:12 56:2,3

57:10 60:10 61:10

65:22 67:17 68:12

68:13 70:13 73:18

79:12 84:11 85:16

86:10 87:17 89:17

89:18 97:13 99:9

104:20 111:13,14

114:10 119:3

121:11,15 122:4,7

122:8 123:8 126:9

126:21 128:11

129:2 146:19

167:11 178:4,4

225:14 234:7

we're 3:10 4:9,15,17

4:19 5:9,12,16

7:17,18 9:18 11:9

13:4,19 15:2,22

16:3 19:19 20:22

21:10,16,18,22

22:7,8,16,17,20

23:13 24:4,10,20

25:11 26:21 27:1

30:10 31:2 32:12

32:14 33:16,20

37:15,17 38:12

41:1 47:8,14 49:3

49:19 51:19 56:19

57:20 58:12,15,17

58:18 60:7 61:10

62:14 64:16 67:21

67:22 68:4,10,11

70:1 71:21 75:17

78:21 81:9 82:4,4

87:7,11,14 88:1,1

89:5,8 90:2 92:2

92:15,20 94:7,15

94:16,17 95:12,19

97:10,21 98:1,11

98:19,21 99:17

100:1,11,17

102:19 103:19

104:8,8 107:18

108:5,9,15 110:1

110:21 111:21

112:14 113:20,21

116:15,18 118:17

119:10,10 121:19

125:2,6 126:8

128:11,21 129:16

129:20,21 135:2

137:9 143:1,2

147:7 148:7

154:17 157:2,7,9

158:6 160:2

164:22 165:1,5,6

165:7 167:10,14

167:15 168:4

172:17 173:8

175:19 176:16,21

177:5 183:22

185:13 186:2

188:5 190:10

193:8,8,9,14

194:4,13 196:22

197:21,21 198:8

204:16 205:5

207:2 208:5 209:3

209:9,10,14 213:1

213:7 214:4,8,10

214:20 215:5,6

219:22,22 220:22

221:2 222:7,12,15

222:18 223:12

228:3,15 229:4

230:4,5 231:9

233:8 234:1,4

we've 4:18 5:20

9:19 18:9,11

19:20 20:6,19

22:18 26:1 27:7

29:6 33:7 39:11

41:5 46:1 48:8

53:2 54:19 67:8

72:12 74:21 75:21

76:4 86:22 89:20

102:6 104:11

106:1 107:21

113:11 123:7

126:12 129:13

147:3 164:13,21

178:14 179:17

193:15 194:14,15

210:8 219:21

233:2,4

weak 35:2

weaker 205:9

weather 70:4 94:19

webinar 70:3 93:4

93:13,14,16 94:8

96:2,21

webinars 24:17

website 27:4

Wednesday 231:21

Wednesday/Thur...

232:11

week 72:12,15

87:14 120:3,9

124:4,15,18 232:3

weekend 124:17

231:22

weigh 6:8 29:22

weigh-in 106:1

Welcome 3:3

went 6:12 25:21

126:19 146:11

weren't 5:14 173:1

185:16 189:15

wheats 164:13

Whirlpool 2:18 7:7

8:10,11 45:21

48:10,15 53:17

74:5 103:21

122:12 188:7

197:18 199:10

203:21 204:12

214:12 223:3

white 47:13

whiteboard 46:1

53:18

who've 178:8

wine 7:10,15 8:12

12:12 46:15 50:8

65:3 136:16

139:17 177:15

Wisconsin 12:9

withdraw 18:8

withdrawn 18:10

wondered 155:4

wondering 52:20

74:6 79:6 85:2

170:2

word 51:20 69:12

80:11 86:4 95:6

95:11 103:8

109:15 176:18

wording 137:19

208:3

words 24:5 55:18

88:8 104:1 174:12

179:6 214:14,16

215:4

work 3:17 5:10 11:7

13:8 16:7 18:5

19:17 20:1,10,22

22:8 23:17,18

24:4 30:2 33:20

60:9 76:16 92:20

113:14 119:12

131:1 146:2 147:6

231:10

worked 5:6 8:17

90:11 114:14

working 1:3 3:8,13

8:20,21 18:3,4,9

18:10,15 24:11

25:1,4 26:13 28:2

29:14 32:5,14

39:8 69:5,9 80:22

82:12,13 83:10,20

84:16,18 85:22

86:2 88:4,5,15

89:8 90:7,9,21

91:7 94:15 98:4

98:13 101:6,7,9

101:10 108:2,3,10

112:17 116:20

117:5,8 119:4

128:14 154:22

works 15:13 60:20

146:4 226:9

world 12:1 135:10

135:11 159:2,18

160:4

worried 195:20,21

196:4

worry 79:20 196:9

Worth 9:5

would've 205:7

wouldn't 5:13 78:13

99:2,6 104:19

127:20 150:5

154:21 168:16

196:8 206:15

219:17 221:22

225:6,18 227:5

wrap 6:3 219:2

write 200:13

writes 113:8

written 82:17
ASRAC Miscellaneous Refrigeration Working Group Meeting

May 4, 2015

202-347-3700 Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. 866-928-6509

Page 260

100:20 101:4

111:9

wrong 21:20 176:15

X

Y

year 8:18 9:20

years 7:7 8:17 9:13

9:20 10:10 11:13

158:21 159:4,9

166:4 180:2

Young 13:6,7

Z

zero 161:1

0

1

1 70:19 71:5,12

89:11 99:12

1:30 126:5,6,14,15

126:22

10 14:22 31:3 38:10

60:14 69:19,21,21

74:4,13 75:6 77:9

77:10 78:8 80:10

81:17,17 119:13

198:15 230:7,8

232:21

10-minute 223:20

10:30 56:4,8,9

100 21:8 26:16

232:19

1000 1:8

10th 231:11

11 138:16 230:8,9,9

232:22 233:5,8

234:2,3

11th 230:8,8,13

232:21,21,21

12 58:13 60:14,18

12:30 126:5

12th 230:8,9,10,13

232:21,21,22

233:6 234:2,4

13 69:17

14 38:9 58:13 60:14

60:15,18 69:16,18

74:9 75:6 99:2,9

232:7

14th 232:14

15 31:3 56:3 98:16

178:3 230:22

232:12,17,20

234:3

15-minute 56:1

15th 231:6 232:7,10

232:13

16 153:5

16th 231:1,1,1,6

232:10,12,17,20

234:3

17th 231:1,2,5

18 9:13 10:10 233:1

233:2 234:4

18th 231:5,8

19 155:20

1980s 19:22

1990 19:15

1996 19:16

19th 231:5,8 233:1

233:3 234:4

2

2 69:4 89:10 98:12

99:12,15

20 18:2 32:11 225:2

225:20

2001 11:14 12:15

2012 17:16

2014 12:15 160:20

161:6

2015 1:12

20585 1:9

24 121:6

25 7:6 8:17

27 10:10

27th 124:16 233:10

233:22 234:2

28 11:13

28th 100:8 124:16

233:11,16,20,22

234:2

29th 233:11

2A 90:7

3

3 98:12 99:12,15

123:18,20,22

3:00 230:19

30 99:20 100:4,8

176:10

31 99:20 100:5,10

31st 233:2

32 132:22 136:14

150:9,11

37 132:5 136:14

39 132:4,22 134:18

134:20 135:18

136:1,14,14 137:2

185:12 187:19

194:21 195:1

3A 97:13 98:2,9

3B 69:4

4

4 1:12 38:10 70:20

80:21 98:12 99:12

99:15 123:16,18

123:20 149:19

4:00 224:2

4:23 234:14

40 9:16 149:19

151:20 156:14

41 134:16,17 135:17

135:19 136:1,4,18

136:20

430.23 198:15

430.2310 197:10

5

5 123:16 158:7,8

50 19:20 139:20

148:10 166:4

55 187:1

6

60 132:6 166:4

60-degree 159:20

6292.A1 216:2

7

7 80:21

70 166:4 183:13

197:13 198:12

199:3 200:9,18

208:6,8

70-ish 183:3 210:9

72 141:7 158:13

160:8,15 161:4,16

162:5,14,17,22

163:5 164:5 165:1

165:9,16 167:13

169:8,10,22 170:8

170:19 174:16

175:5 176:9,11

180:22 181:18

183:20 184:9,22

185:17 188:3,17

189:22 190:1,17

190:19,20 192:11

192:20 193:18

195:18,21 196:4

196:15 197:1,3,8

197:9,15 199:7,8

200:3

72-ambient 162:20

72-degree 159:8

162:11 167:19

173:5 179:18

180:9,11 185:3

200:10

72-degrees 179:16

77 164:8,11

77-degree 159:13

164:16,18

8

8 89:11 91:21 232:3

234:3

8E-089 1:7

8th 231:11

9

9 134:14 137:12

231:11

9:00 1:11 3:2

90 160:16 161:1,4

161:16 162:2,10

164:6 165:1,1

166:2,6 167:13

169:6,11 170:11

172:7,20 175:7,15

175:16 176:9,10

179:19 180:5,12

180:16 182:2

183:4,9,12,18,19

184:2,9 185:2,10

185:16,20 187:1

188:3,18 189:3

190:4,21 192:11

192:13 193:13,22

195:10,19,20

197:2,8,14,14

198:12 199:4,6

200:18 202:1

208:6,9,12 210:12

210:15,19 212:17

214:1 221:9

222:22

90-degree 159:19

160:12 161:13

162:9 163:1

164:20 166:1,3

167:3 173:3 176:1

185:5

90-degrees 222:2

90-ish 183:4

9th 231:11 232:3

234:3
261 

TRANSCRIPTION CERTIFICATE 

As a professional transcriber, I certify that the 

attached document(s} are, to the best of my abilities, an 

accurate transcription of audio recordings provided to 

the company, given the quality of the provided audio 

recording(s}, and that I have no financial or other interest 

in the proceedings to which they pertain. 

TRANSCRIBER