### Capital Reporting Company Commercial/Industrial Pumps Working Group 03-27-2014

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 1

DEPARTMENT OF ENERGY COMMERCIAL AND INDUSTRIAL PUMPS NEGOTIATED RULEMAKING WORKING GROUP CALL NO. FEB 0214-2 EE-2J Thursday, March 27, 2014 8:00 a.m. Department of Energy 1000 Independence Avenue, SW Forrestal Building Suite GF035 Washington, D.C. 20585 Reported by: San Hines Capital Reporting Company

### Capital Reporting Company Commercial/Industrial Pumps Working Group 03-27-2014

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 2 1 P A R T I C I P A N T S (In Alphabetical Order) 2 Lu cas Adin, Department of Energy 3 Ro bert Barbour, TACO, Inc. Ro b Boteler, Nidec Motor Corporation 4 Do ug Brookman, Facilitator, Public Solutions Ch arles Cappellino, ITT Goulds Pumps 5 Gr eg Case, Pump Design, Development & Diagnostics, LL C 6 To m Eckman, Northwest Power and Conservation Council Ga ry Fernstrom, California Investor-Owned Utilities 7 Ma rk Handzel, Xylem Al bert Huber, Patterson Pumps 8 Be tsy Kohl, Department of Energy Pa ul Lin, Regal-Beloit Corporation 9 Jo anna Mauer, Appliance Standards Awareness Project (ASAP) 10 Br ent McManis, Baldor Electric Company La ura Petrillo-Groh, Air-Conditioning, Heating, & 11 Refrigeration Institute (AHRI) Do uglas Potts, American Water 12 C. J. (Chuck) Powers, Flowserve St even Rosenstock, Edison Electric Institute (EEI) 13 Ar nold Sdano, Pentair Ja mes Sivigny, Flowserve 14 Lo uis Starr, Northwest Energy Efficiency Alliance (NEEA) 15 Gr eg Towsley, Grundfos Pumps Corporation Me g Waltner, Natural Resources Defense Council 16 (N RDC) Da niel Weintraub, Navigant 17 Sa rah Widder, Pacific Northwest National Laboratory Al ison Williams, Lawrence Berkeley National 18 La boratory 19 20 21 22

### Capital Reporting Company Commercial/Industrial Pumps Working Group 03-27-2014

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 3 1 P R O C E E D I N G S 2 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Let's start, shall 3 we ? Good morning, everyone. I'm glad to see you 4 he re bright and early. Today is the second day of 5 th e fourth meeting of the Commercial and 6 In dustrial Pumps Negotiated Rulemaking Working 7 Gr oup. My name is Doug Brookman from Public 8 So lutions in Baltimore. 9 Let's start by doing introductions 10 ar ound the room. I'll start to my immediate left. 11 An d you can get used to turning these microphones 12 on and off. 13 MR. LIN: Paul Lin with Regal-Beloit. 14 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Steve Rosenstock, 15 Ed ison Electric Institute. 16 MR. HUBER: Al Huber, Patterson Pump. 17 MR. CAPPELLINO: Charlie Cappellino, ITT 18 Co rporation. 19 MR. HANDZEL: Mark Handzel from Xylem. 20 MR. CASE: Greg Case, Hydraulic 21 In stitute. 22 MR. BARBOUR: Bob Barbour from TACO.

### Capital Reporting Company Commercial/Industrial Pumps Working Group 03-27-2014

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 4 1 MR. POWERS: Chuck Powers, Flowserve. 2 MR. TOWSLEY: Greg Towsley, Grundfos. 3 MS. WALTNER: Meg Waltner, Natural 4 Re sources Defense Council. 5 MR. FERNSTROM: Gary Fernstrom, 6 Ca lifornia Investor-Owned Utilities. 7 MR. STARR: Louis Starr, NEEA. 8 MS. MAUER: Joanna Mauer, Appliance 9 St andards Awareness Project. 10 MR. POTTS: Doug Potts, American Water. 11 MS. KOHL: Betsy Kohl, DOE, General 12 Co unsel. 13 MR. ADIN: Lucas Adin, DOE. 14 MS. WIDDER: Sarah Widder, Pacific 15 No rthwest National Labs. 16 MR. WEINTRAUB: Dan Weintraub, Navigant. 17 MS. WILLIAMS: Alison Williams, Lawrence 18 Be rkeley National Labs. 19 MR. BOTELER: Rob Boteler, Nidec. 20 MR. SDANO: Arnie Sdano, Pentair. 21 MR. McMANIS: Brent McManis, Baldor 22 El ectric.

### Capital Reporting Company Commercial/Industrial Pumps Working Group 03-27-2014

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 5 1 MS. PETRILLO-GROH: Laura Petrillo-Groh, 2 AH RI. 3 MR. SIVIGNY: James Sivigny, Flowserve. 4 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Thanks to all of 5 yo u. Thanks for getting here on time. We can get 6 a nice early start on this day. 7 Yesterday we made tremendous progress. 8 I' m really pleased about that. I know many of you 9 ar e as well. I think all of you are in fact. 10 Tom Eckman, introduce yourself, please. 11 MR. ECKMAN: Tom Eckman, Northwest Power 12 an d Conservation Council. 13 MR. BROOKMAN: Thank you. And looking 14 fo rward to continuing the progress today dealing 15 wi th metrics, maybe a little bit of information on 16 te st procedure stuff, and any other loose ends 17 th at we come up with as the day goes on. 18 So I think without any further ado, 19 we 'll just turn to Sarah Widder. And Sarah and I 20 ha d a brief conversation this morning. I think we 21 sh ould try and let her present this packet before 22 we start trying to dive deep. I think the packet

### Capital Reporting Company Commercial/Industrial Pumps Working Group 03-27-2014

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 6 1 ha s a certain logic and coherence, and we ought to 2 ju st see if it pays off that way. 3 So Sarah Widder. 4 MS. WIDDER: Thanks, Doug. 5 And, yeah, so I'm going to try and -- it 6 is a lot of material, but I think, as Doug 7 me ntioned, if we go through it, I won't get into 8 to o many of the details, but I will try to present 9 ev erything that's in the slide packet once 10 th rough, and then we'll go back and take notes if 11 yo u have questions, if there is -- we don't have 12 to -- you know, if there are really large 13 co ncerns, please feel free to bring them up, but 14 ot herwise, I think we'll make a lot of progress if 15 we can have all the material out on the table 16 be fore we start discussing. 17 So these are the same slides we went 18 th rough yesterday, so the first few are going to 19 go pretty quickly. This is again an overview of 20 wh at we're going to discuss in the slides. We're 21 go ing to do examples of a calculation-based test 22 pr ocedure as well as a testing-based option for

### Capital Reporting Company Commercial/Industrial Pumps Working Group 03-27-2014

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 7 1 pu mps and motors, pumps and motors with controls, 2 an d then talk in more detail about the specific 3 lo ad points, weighting options, and denominators. 4 This is just a review of what we're 5 tr ying to accomplish with this metric: have a 6 me tric that is equivalently applicable to a bare 7 pu mp, a bare pump sold with a driver or motor, or 8 a bare pump sold with a driver and controls. And 9 we established yesterday that the bare pump option 10 wo uld also be applicable to pumps sold with other 11 th an electric drives. 12 The covered product is the pump, and the 13 me tric is intended to be applicable to every piece 14 of equipment that makes up the pump and 15 re presentative of the energy use of each of those 16 co mponents. So to accomplish that, we developed 17 th is PER example metric. We have received comments 18 th at we might consider different nomenclature than 19 "P ump Energy Rating." We'll consider that, and if 20 an y of the working group has suggestions, we can 21 ta lk about that. 22 But in general, it's an average or a

### Capital Reporting Company Commercial/Industrial Pumps Working Group 03-27-2014

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 8 1 we ighting of some sort of three load points 2 re presentative of different locations on the pump 3 cu rve, and in this case, we have talked about 100 4 pe rcent of BEP flow, 110 percent of BEP flow, 75 5 pe rcent of BEP flow, and 50 percent of BEP flow, 6 re presentative of the light green dots on that 7 cu rve. And then for pump driver and controls, we 8 wo uld have the same load points in terms of BEP 9 fl ow, but we would follow a system curve that 10 al lows speed reduction for the controls that are 11 ab le to accomplish that. 12 The issues that we're going to try and 13 ge t through today are the existence of a 14 de nominator, so that's red on the bottom. We 15 ta lked about hydraulic power being an option. 16 Th ere are a lot of other options. We'll get to 17 th at at the end. The load control factor out to 18 th e left, whether or not and what should be 19 ap plied to pumps or pumps and motors that aren't 20 so ld with controls. If just 100 percent 21 ef ficiency is an appropriate assumption, or we 22 wa nt to account in some way for theoretical

### Capital Reporting Company Commercial/Industrial Pumps Working Group 03-27-2014

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 9 1 co ntrol losses, how we account for motor losses at 2 pa rt-loading, how we account for controls in 3 ge neral, whether that's a testing-based approach 4 or a calculation-based approach, the load points 5 an d the weighting, and we'll go through each of 6 th ose in detail. 7 We talked about this. 8 So I am just going to get into the 9 sa mple calculations and then go through the 10 te sting methods and compare them. 11 For these example calculations, we used 12 a reference pump. So this is just an example for 13 on e pump. It would vary based on the pump curve 14 an d what pump you were testing. In this example, 15 th e pump is an OH1, has a rated flow of 900 16 ga llons per minute and a rated head of 160 feet. 17 An d then the motor for the pump and motor case is 18 a 60-horse, 95 percent motor, and then the 19 co ntrols, we'll look at two controls options. 20 We talked about how the test procedure 21 fo r establishing BEP and just in general pump 22 ch aracteristics being consistent with 40.6,

### Capital Reporting Company Commercial/Industrial Pumps Working Group 03-27-2014

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 10 1 es sentially running the load curve capturing 7 2 po ints on the load curve for a pump, whether they 3 be specific load points in 40.6 -- it was I think 4 40 , 60, 75, 80, 90, 100 -- or 90, 100, 110, 120, 5 so mething like that -- and then through the 6 eq uation of best fit, finding the BEP flow. 7 Some things we want to capture in the 8 te st procedure would be the repeatability of that 9 an d ensuring that then when you found BEP flow, 10 yo u would actually capture your 100 percent point 11 ne ar to what you thought would be BEP flow. 12 Is this a big deal? Is it okay if we go 13 al l the way through? 14 MR. BROOKMAN: Write it down. 15 MR. ROSENSTOCK: All right. 16 MS. WIDDER: Okay. All right. Thanks. 17 I' ll try to stay high level. That will be my 18 go al, we'll have compromise so then we can get 19 in to the questions later. 20 So for the bare pump option, we talked 21 ab out this. The pump performance data would come 22 fr om 40.6 at the specific load points. I am going

### Capital Reporting Company Commercial/Industrial Pumps Working Group 03-27-2014

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 11 1 to use 50, 75, 100, and 110 just moving forward in 2 th is example. They could be something else if we 3 de cide on that. And then multiplying by 4 st andardized motor performance and potentially 5 st andardized control performance. This would be 6 pu rely an algorithm since the two components on 7 th e left don't exist for this bare pump case. 8 So we took the pump data at those four 9 lo ad points and plugged them into the equation. 10 Th at's seen here. 11 We talked about the method to account 12 fo r motor losses. So we can look up a default 13 fu ll-load motor efficiency in the tables at CFR 14 43 1.25, which is the section for motors. In this 15 ca se, we have a specific way of determining the 16 si ze that's to be paired with this pump, looking 17 at the horsepower, the shaft horsepower, at 120 18 pe rcent of BEP flow. We found that to be 53.65, 19 ro und up to 60. We have a rated efficiency of 20 93 .6 percent, and that's actually not applied 21 di rectly to your equation; instead, we take that 22 ra ted flow, which also from the test procedure --

### Capital Reporting Company Commercial/Industrial Pumps Working Group 03-27-2014

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 12 1 or , sorry, rated efficiency, which also from the 2 te st procedure has a rated full-load loss 3 as sociated with it that's essentially the 4 co mponent of -- the losses are what make the 5 ef ficiency go down, so greater full-load losses 6 wi ll result in less efficiency. So I think that's 7 al l clear. If that's not clear, we can get back 8 to it. 9 And we'll calculate the loading of the 10 mo tor as opposed to the loading of the pump at 11 ea ch of the points that we've specified 12 pr eviously. So in most cases, this will mean that 13 th e motor loading is slightly less than the pump 14 lo ading because the pump is a little bit oversized 15

-- well, not oversized, but a little bit larger 16 ho rsepower than the pump. 17 And then using this algorithm that we 18 de veloped based on motor master data for how 19 lo sses change with loading of the motor, we can 20 ca lculate the horsepower losses at each load point 21 fo r the pump. 22 And this table just represents that

### Capital Reporting Company Commercial/Industrial Pumps Working Group 03-27-2014

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 13 1 da ta. So there are four flow points on the left2 ha nd side: 110, 100, 3 75, and 50, are bare pump shaft power. 4 Th en we calculated the load fraction on the motor 5 fo r each of those cases: the part-load loss 6 fa ctor, which is plugging in that XI term into the 7 YI quadratic equation that was on the previous 8 sl ide, and then the fractional-load loss is a 9 ho rsepower. We multiplied the YI times the full10 lo ad losses. 11 And one thing I didn't put on this slide 12 th at would have been interesting, but I'll just 13 sa y it in words and we can present the data later, 14 is that that fractional-load loss does result in a 15 de creasing efficiency of the motor, so that's 16 ca ptured. It's a minor impact. It maybe 17 de creases I think it's like not quite a percent in 18 th at range, but those fractional-load losses are 19 re presentative of a decrease in efficiency of the 20 mo tor, and then combining the fractional load loss 21 an d the shaft input power, we come up with a 22 fr actional input power to the pump in this case

### Capital Reporting Company Commercial/Industrial Pumps Working Group 03-27-2014

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 14 1 wi thout controls. So that would be the line input 2 po wer to the motor that's driving the pump system. 3 In this case, if we equally weight that 4 an d we assume a standardized load control factor 5 of 1, because there are no controls, which also 6 wo uld be an assumption of 100 percent efficiency 7 of the controls, we have a PER of 45.76 with no 8 de nominator. This is the quadratic -- or the data 9 wh ere the quadratic was developed. The motor 10 ma sters data, you can see that we chose the most 11 co nservative case, so the very top of the data is 12 th e worst case motor; it has the highest basically 13 dr op-off in efficiency. 14 And one other point is we could develop 15 or will develop different load curves for ODP 16 ve rsus enclosed motors and for 2- and 4-pole 17 mo tors. So there will be theoretically four -- or 18 co uld be theoretically four different equations 19 th at you could apply based on the type of motor 20 yo u had, and if there are other loss curves that 21 we should create because of different types of 22 mo tors that might be applied, we can certainly do

### Capital Reporting Company Commercial/Industrial Pumps Working Group 03-27-2014

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 15 1 th at if we had data. 2 For bare pump and motor case, it looks 3 ve ry, very similar. This is the same table that 4 we saw before, but now we're assuming -- or we're 5 no t assuming anymore, we are calculating the PER 6 or the fractional-load loss that's associated with 7 a 95 percent efficient motor, which is what we're 8 pa iring with the pump in this example. So instead 9 of the default motor efficiency, it's a 95 percent 10 mo tor, it has full-load losses of 3.16 horsepower 11

-- oh, yeah. 12 MR. CAPPELLINO: Can you slow down a 13 li ttle bit? 14 MS. WIDDER: Yeah. Okay. 15 MR. CAPPELLINO: You're starting to get 16 in to new stuff. 17 MS. WIDDER: Yeah. 18 MR. CAPPELLINO: Thank you. 19 MR. BROOKMAN: That's a good point. 20 Th ank you. 21 MS. WIDDER: Good point. Thank you. 22 So I'll start at the top again. So the

### Capital Reporting Company Commercial/Industrial Pumps Working Group 03-27-2014

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 16 1 PE R is exactly the same as it was for the bare 2 pu mp case. The P values will be exactly the same 3 as it was for the bare pump case. The only thing 4 th at's changing for a pump and motor is the motor 5 ef ficiency, that's the only thing that's 6 di fferent, and in specific, the full-load losses. 7 So we don't actually input motor efficiency into 8 th e equation. The way it's calculated is the 9 fu ll-load losses times the fractional-load loss 10 fa ctor. So in this table -- you can still hear 11 me ; right? I talk sort of loud. 12 MR. BROOKMAN: Yeah. You're good, 13 yo u're good. Just speak up. Yeah. 14 MS. WIDDER: Okay. So in this case, the 15 on ly thing that's different, these data are 16 ex actly the same as it was for the bare pump case, 17 bu t now this fractional-load loss term has 18 de creased slightly and we resulted in a slightly 19 de creased input power to the motor at each of the 20 lo ad points, and so we've gotten a slightly 21 de creased PER value as compared to the bare pump 22 ca se, but the only thing that changed was the

### Capital Reporting Company Commercial/Industrial Pumps Working Group 03-27-2014

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 17 1 mo tor, and in specific, this full-load loss -- 2 ca lculated full-load losses, or rated full-load 3 lo sses, that comes from the motor test procedure. 4 Is this a really burning question? 5 MR. ROSENSTOCK: If you can just make it 6 la rger so I can see. 7 MS. WIDDER: Oh, yeah, sure. Thank you. 8 MR. POWERS: And on the PowerPoints they 9 al low a pen, if you want to. 10 MS. WIDDER: I suppose I can figure out 11 ho w to do that. Pen. Okay. There we go. Got 12 it . 13 MR. POWERS: If you hold it down -- 14 MS. WIDDER: Okay. 15 UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: That's 16 be tter. 17 MS. WIDDER: Good. Excellent. 18 UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: Sorry. 19 MS. WIDDER: Yeah. No, no, no. It's 20 go od. I don't know where my pen went, but 21 ho pefully we won't have to deal with that anymore. 22 Oh . That was a bad plan.

### Capital Reporting Company Commercial/Industrial Pumps Working Group 03-27-2014

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 18 1 MR. ADIN: Hey, Sarah? 2 MS. WIDDER: Yeah. 3 MR. ADIN: I think that tool up in the 4 ri ght is for the webinar. 5 MS. WIDDER: Oh. 6 MR. ADIN: So I don't know if that's 7 go ing to work on PowerPoint necessarily. 8 MS. WIDDER: Right. 9 MR. ADIN: There might be a separate -- 10 MS. KOHL: I think you right click. 11 MR. ADIN: Yeah. Right click on the 12 sl ide and it might -- 13 MS. WIDDER: Okay. Excellent. Pointer 14 op tions. Let's do that. Pen. There we go. 15 Ok ay. Got it. Perfect. 16 Okay. So now on to the bare pump motor 17 an d controls case. There are several options that 18 we could consider for rating a bare pump that's 19 so ld combined with motor and controls. The top 20 ca se here is the calculation approach that would 21 be the least burdensome and sort of the default 22 ca se, and that's what we'll talk through today or

### Capital Reporting Company Commercial/Industrial Pumps Working Group 03-27-2014

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 19 1 ri ght now, and then we'll talk through the testing 2 ca ses a little bit later on. 3 This is the same equation that we saw 4 fo r the bare pump and motor, and the same data 5 wo uld be applied except for in this case we are 6 no t using four rated pump input horsepower or pump 7 sh aft input power, but before, we had measured 8 da ta at each of these PowerPoints. And in this 9 ca se, we're just going to take the BEP shaft 10 ho rsepower. And then because we're accounting for 11 sp eed reduction and the power reduction that's 12 as sociated with moving down the system curve, 13 we 're going to assume a system curve and calculate 14 th ese lower -- the power at these -- the shaft 15 po wer at these lower values. 16 And that's going to result in -- let me 17 do one more. So that's going to result in -- for 18 th is example, we're going to walk through how we 19 mi ght calculate this load control factor. And 20 th ere's -- and -- what do I want to say? We're 21 go ing to talk through how we might calculate the 22 lo ad control factor that would be applied equally

### Capital Reporting Company Commercial/Industrial Pumps Working Group 03-27-2014

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 20 1 to all pumps that were sold with a specific type 2 of control. 3 So in this case, the first case, we're 4 go ing to talk about a VFD. The load control 5 fa ctor in general will be the PER of the 6 co ntrolled pump case moving down that system 7 cu rve, which will be lower, as the numerator, 8 di vided by the uncontrolled PER, which for this 9 pu mp would be the 45.08 horsepower number that we 10 go t with the bare pump plus the 95 percent 11 ef ficient motor, assuming that it's sold with the 12 sa me motor and controls, so just adding on 13 co ntrols in this case. 14 Is there anything else we need to -- we 15 de veloped load control factors for each specific 16 ty pe of control. Here I've developed examples for 17 va riable speed drive and for a 2-speed motor or a 18 mu lti-speed motor, but we could make a list of 19 ot her control options that should be considered 20 an d how those system curves might look different, 21 bu t I would definitely welcome input from the 22 co mmittee on that point.

### Capital Reporting Company Commercial/Industrial Pumps Working Group 03-27-2014

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 21 1 And then we assumed a -- this is just a 2 po int for when you see this slide -- we have made 3 so me assumptions about the efficiency of the 4 co ntrol as 96 percent efficient, and then also we 5 ha ve assumed this conservative system curve, and 6 th is is to accomplish the same thing as the motor 7 lo sses equation accomplishes for us. This makes 8 su re that this load control factor always gives us 9 a worst case for a pump sold with motors and 10 co ntrols, and if you were to test it and actually 11 me asure the power input to the system at those 12 re duced loadings, you would get a better rating 13 th an you would using the calculation approach. 14 So this is our load curve. One point is 15 th at now we're considering 110 percent, we're not 16 al lowing for overspeeding, so you're just 17 fo llowing the pump curve at that point. That was 18 th e assumption we made here. 19 And then this is the equation of the 20 re lationship between flow and speed, head and 21 sp eed, and power and speed are what we're relying 22 on . Typically, that's a square relationship

### Capital Reporting Company Commercial/Industrial Pumps Working Group 03-27-2014

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 22 1 be tween head and speed. N is speed in this case, 2 H is head, Q is flow, P is power. And usually a 3 cu bic relationship between power, and so that's 4 wh ere the conservative nature of this system curve 5 co mes in. We used 1.8 and 2.8 instead. There's a 6 sm all basis, a weak basis I'll call it, for that. 7 AS HRAE in the Fundamentals Handbook talks about 8 sy stem curves in the field being typically more in 9 th e 1.8 to 1.9 range for the relationship between 10 he ad and flow, and so that's the assumption we 11 ha ve used here. The committee -- and we can 12 ac tually assume any number we want there. And I 13 ac tually did some calculations looking at, what if 14 we reduce it to 2.5, 2.25? And it doesn't have as 15 la rge of an impact as I thought it would. But we 16 ca n definitely consider what that number might be. 17 It 's 2.8 in this example case. 18 So, again, we're going to take only two 19 in puts from our tested pump data, the power at 20 BE P, the shaft horsepower at BEP, which in this 21 ca se was 47.7 horsepower, and the flow at BEP, 22 wh ich in this case was 490 GPM.

### Capital Reporting Company Commercial/Industrial Pumps Working Group 03-27-2014

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 23 1 Using the pump affinity laws, we then 2 pl ug those two values in and calculate the power 3 at the reduced load points. This is an example 4 ca lculation for 75 percent of BEP flow, and we had 5 a reduced shaft input power of 21.3-horsepower. 6 An d you can imagine how you might do that 7 eq uivalently for the 50 percent point, and then 8 ag ain the 110 percent point is on the curve. So 9 we don't have to do any adjustment for that. 10 Assuming the motor is a 95 percent 11 ef ficient motor, the same we had before in the 12 un controlled case, and the drive is 96 percent 13 ef ficient, the controlled PER is then -- you know, 14 if we -- is 1 times these shaft -- the weighted -- 15 th e equally weighted shaft input power at the load 16 po ints that we calculated these -- basically these 17 va lues in the right-hand column, plugged in, and 18 ac counting for motor losses, so that's why they're 19 a little bit different than the values in the 20 ta ble, so we took these values, we -- or, sorry. 21 Ye ah. We took these values in the right-hand 22 co lumn, we applied motor efficiency and motor

### Capital Reporting Company Commercial/Industrial Pumps Working Group 03-27-2014

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 24 1 lo sses to them just like it was a motor sold -- or 2 a pump sold with a motor. 3 We got these values that we plugged in 4 th e top as input power to the motor, and then we 5 di vided that by the drive, or assumed drive, 6 ef ficiency. And so that would give us essentially 7 a PER that is accounting for the efficiency of the 8 mo tor, the efficiency of the drive, and the 9 re duced power input to the system as we move down 10 th e system curve, and that's what we wanted to 11 ac complish here. 12 So we got a controlled PER of 35.15 in 13 th is case, and if we take the ratio of -- oh, 14 th at's a mistake, sorry. All right. I did this 15 ca lculation many, many times, and I didn't update 16 th at last little equation, but if we took 35.15 or 17 33 .45, which was the case before, divided by the 18 un controlled PER, we get a load control factor of 19 .7 8, and then that load control factor would be 20 ap plied to any pump sold with controls. 21 So in the future, when manufacturers are 22 se lling a bare pump with motor and controls, you

### Capital Reporting Company Commercial/Industrial Pumps Working Group 03-27-2014

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 25 1 wo uld certify your pump as you tested their pump, 2 ap ply the full-load losses and the motor loss 3 eq uation, calculate the PER of the bare pump and 4 mo tor that it's packaged with, and then depending 5 on the type of controls, look up the load control 6 fa ctor that would be static for any type of 7 co ntrol that you might apply, and if it's a VFD in 8 th is case, it's .78, and that would essentially 9 ju st reduce your PER by .78, and you would get in 10 th is case 33.15. 11 For the 2-speed motor, it's a little bit 12 di fferent, very similar approach, a little bit 13 di fferent calculations because of how the speed 14 re duction is accomplished. It doesn't completely 15 fo llow the system curve. In this calculation, we 16 ha d to make assumptions about what percentage 17 lo ading remained on the high speed of the motor 18 an d what percentage loading the speeding was 19 re duced to the lower speed of the motor and what 20 th e ratio is. 21 In this case, we have assumed a 2-to-1, 22 so the low speed is half of high speed, and due to

### Capital Reporting Company Commercial/Industrial Pumps Working Group 03-27-2014

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 26 1 th at, we have assumed that the 75 percent, 100 2 pe rcent, and 110 percent loading cases remain on 3 th e high speed of the motor and that only the 50 4 pe rcent loading point drops down to the lower 5 sp eed, as you can see in the figure in the right6 ha nd side. 7 So if we make all those assumptions -- 8 an d part of the reason we made that assumption is 9 if you look at the loading on the motor, we state 10

-- even the 75 percent point is 67 percent of 11 mo tor load, and so that -- based on the loading of 12 th e motor, we felt comfortable assuming that it 13 st ayed at high speed for the load points that we 14 ar e looking at. For the 50 percent case, we are 15 54 percent loaded if we stayed at high speed, and 16 th en if we reduce to low speed, the power goes 17 do wn significantly. The calculation is shown 18 he re, it's 7.94-horsepower. 19 And assuming that again the motor is a 20 95 percent efficient motor and applying motor 21 lo sses, then we have here is this equally weighted 22 eq uation. And in this case, I'll just point out

### Capital Reporting Company Commercial/Industrial Pumps Working Group 03-27-2014

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 27 1 th at these values are all just like they were for 2 th e bare pump plus motor case. There have been no 3 ch anges. These are just as if we had no control 4 an d then only this 50 percent loading case we 5 de creased the input, the assumed shaft input power 6 to the pump, and then so we have a lower power 7 in put to the motor -- or the pump system. 8 We have a controlled PER of 38.43. 9 Th at's slightly higher than the case with the VFD 10 co ntrol, which is appropriate, and a load control 11 fa ctor that's more conservative, it does not 12 ac count for as much power reduction. At .85, you 13 do n't get as much credit for having the 2-speed 14 mo tor compared to a VFD, and that's how you might 15 di fferentiate controls. So we could develop 16 si milar assumptions for other types of controls. 17 There are some issues that we will have 18 to work out, some details, related to 2-speed 19 mo tors or other types of controls. We mentioned 20 ye sterday that if you have oversizing of the motor 21 or perfect sizing of the motor, depending on where 22 yo ur pump is within the motor size bin, it might

### Capital Reporting Company Commercial/Industrial Pumps Working Group 03-27-2014

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 28 1 af fect the loading of the motor and, A, will 2 af fect how the losses are calculated, and in 3 sp ecific for this, applying the load control 4 fa ctor, it will affect -- this table up here is 5 th e motor loading with the same pump but assuming 6 a 55-horsepower motor, a 60-horsepower motor, a 7 75 -horsepower motor, and you can see how with a 8 75 -horsepower motor, we reduce to almost 40 9 pe rcent load, and it might be appropriate to 10 as sume that both the 50 percent and the 75 percent 11 ca se, these two lines, drop down to low speed 12 in stead of just the 50 percent loading case. 13 So there might be some more complex 14 ca lculations we want to account for in doing the 15 lo ad control factor. We might want to not just 16 ha ve a fixed value. One thought that I had was 17 fo r other than 2-to-1 windings, you could 18 ca lculate the reduced speed based on the actual 19 ra tio of the speeds. So if it was 4-to-1 20 wi ndings, you could calculate the ratio of the 21 sp eeds and reduce the power by that amount using 22 th e system curve equation, so P2 would be P1 times

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 29 1 th e speed ratio to the 2.8 power in this case, or 2 wh atever assumption we want to make. 3 This would result in a conservative 4 as sumption because we don't know the shape of the 5 lo ad curve down there, and so for our 2-to-1 case, 6 it worked out perfectly because 50 percent loading 7 is directly on the system curve, a 50 percent flow 8 is directly on the system curve. We would assume 9 th at the 50 percent flow case was the same as the 10 fl ow at -- was the same power input as flow at 11 wh atever our other speed was. 12 So this is sort of getting into the 13 de tails, but if this was instead like down here, 14 bu t 50 percent flow was like here because we have 15 mo re than 2-to-1, we have like a 4-to-1 ratio, 16 we 're assuming that the power input to the motor 17 is on the system curve because we don't know what 18 th e system curve shape is, and it has a different 19

-- the flow has a different relationship, the 20 re duction in flow is related to speed, but a 21 di fferent relationship than the reduction in 22 po wer. So if we have less than 2-to-1, we're

### Capital Reporting Company Commercial/Industrial Pumps Working Group 03-27-2014

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 30 1 go ing to get off the system curve and we have to 2 ma ke some assumptions. We're going to have to 3 th ink about that some more. 4 But other issues related to the load 5 co ntrol factor, other control options that we 6 mi ght want to consider, is it desirable to make 7 lo ad control factor technology neutral or able to 8 di fferentiate between technologies and how we 9 mi ght do that? And we have made an assumption 10 ab out the efficiency of the control in this case. 11 Th at was to ensure that the calculation results in 12 a conservative rating. That could be a mechanism 13 fo r allowing for differentiation of controls based 14 on an improvement in efficiency, just full-load 15 ef ficiency, of that control if that data was 16 av ailable. That's just one option. 17 So this is a comparison of the 18 ca lculated PERs. Just in summary, we have, with 19 th is metric, accounted for, as you put on a more 20 ef ficient motor, you were able to reduce your PER 21 an d get credit for that. If you put on a VFD, 22 th at resulted in a best rating in this example,

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 31 1 an d a 2-speed motor gave you a better rating than 2 wi th no control at all, but it was not as good as 3 a VFD; in general, that's what we found. And as 4 we get to the denominator options, the values in 5 th is table would change, but the ranking doesn't. 6 We always maintain that the bare pump case will be 7 th e worst, and as you add on efficient motors or 8 co ntrols, it will get better. 9 The test methods, as alternatives to the 10 ca lculation approach, if we were to -- there are 11 so me products that might be more appropriate to 12 te st instead of do a calculation if measuring 13 sh aft input power is difficult for some reason or 14

-- it's typically always sold in a close-coupled 15 co nfiguration. There are a number of reasons we 16 mi ght want to apply this, or manufacturers just 17 wa nt to as an alternative. 18 So this is HI 14.6, referred to as the 19 st ring test. You essentially just measure 20 di rectly the input power to the motor and throttle 21 th e flow back to those four specific load points, 22 sa me four specific load points. So instead of

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 32 1 ap plying a full- load motor efficiency and the 2 mo tor loss equation, you are just measuring that 3 va lue directly. And that will, we believe, based 4 on our motor loss curve, be better than the 5 ca lculation, so you'll get a better PER number 6 le ss power input to the motor system, the pump 7 mo tor system. 8 This is the equation here. We've seen 9 th at a lot of times before. Yeah. We'll just -- 10 I don't know if there is -- there is not really a 11 lo t to add. It's a pretty simple test. 12 Then for the pump plus motor plus 13 co ntrols options, it gets a little more 14 co mplicated when we talk about testing. There are 15 tw o options. There's an option where we test the 16 mo tor and drive together and apply that to tested 17 pu mp performance. That would be like the AHRI 18 12 10 case where that type of data is available, 19 an d we can do a similar calculation between the 20 mo tor and drive as a system, applying that to our 21 te sted pump performance, or we can just test the 22 wh ole thing. So that's what we're going to talk -

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 33 1 - we're going to talk through both those examples. 2 First we're going to do this one, the 3 AH RI 1210 case, which is a little complicated and 4 di fficult because we don't have the data, but just 5 as an option, we have the same equation that we 6 sa w with the bare pump plus motor case except for 7 no w the denominator is the efficiency of the 8 dr ives, so the motor and the control system 9 to gether. And we get that efficiency value from 10 AH RI 1210. 11 These are the tests, the load points, 12 th at are specified in AHRI 1210. What that test 13 ba sically does is similar to a pump test, it 14 ca lculates the efficiency or the input power and 15 th e output power at specific speed and torque 16 po ints on the drive system, and it's essentially a 17 pe rformance map. The difficulty is they are 18 ch anging two variables at once. As you can see in 19 th e table, they're changing speed and torque. The 20 gr ayed out areas, they don't completely fill out 21 th e matrix in the test, it's just this sort of 22 di agonal with a 40 percent speed and 16 percent

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 34 1 to rque. Speed refers to the column and torque 2 re fers to the rows. 3 Yeah? 4 MR. CAPPELLINO: Say that again? Speed 5 is ? 6 MS. WIDDER: Speed is down. Speed is 40 7 pe rcent, 50 percent, 75 percent, and 100 percent 8 sp eed. And then torque is referring to the 9 co lumns: 16 percent, 25 percent, 56 percent, and 10 10 0 percent. And so we don't have a fully 11 co mpleted matrix, but we have an idea of how the 12 ef ficiency of the drive changes with speed and 13 to rque. We have a relationship as we move in two 14 di mensions. So we have a 3-dimensional curve in 15 sp ace. 16 The way we've developed to match this 17 ef ficiency data, this 3-dimensional curve, to the 18 lo ad points on the pump is to, based on our pump 19 da ta, we have rated speed and torque -- those are 20 bo th measured as part of 40.6 -- and so at each of 21 ou r load points, the four load points on the left22 ha nd column that we have been using all along, we

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 35 1 ca n match those rated speed and torque to the 2 sp eed and torque points that we have from AHRI 3 12 10, and we essentially have to do a double 4 in terpolation. So we have to move in two 5 di rections from this 3-dimensional drive curve. 6 So we're making the assumption that we 7 ca n linearly interpolate -- that's what we've done 8 he re because we don't have any other information - 9 - but also the efficiency is not -- I mean, this 10 is not real data, I made up this data, but 11 ho pefully the efficiency would not change 12 si gnificantly. We don't have a lot of AHRI 1210 13 da ta, and so this is something we would have to 14 ve rify, but how we get from the 3-dimensional 15 cu rve to actually our load point somewhere in this 16 ot her region of 3-dimensional space is going to be 17 so mething we have to decide. 18 If we do the double linear 19 in terpolation, this is just how it would go, these 20 ar e just two linear interpolation equations added 21 to gether. It looks like a lot, but essentially 22 we 're trying to get -- so for the torque point, we

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 36 1 la nd between here and here, so we would linearly 2 in terpolate between 93 and 95, moving up from 92, 3 we would get something around like 94 percent, and 4 th en the speed points were between 900 and 1,350. 5 So this is actually the more complicated case. In 6 a lot of cases, will be moving in the same 7 di rection. In this case, we're interpolating up 8 fr om this load point in terms of torque and down 9 fr om this load point in terms of speed, and that's 10 ac complished in the equation, it just means that 11 th e efficiency adjustment is positive in one case 12 an d negative in one case from 93. 13 Yeah? Is it -- can we save it till the 14 en d? We're really close. Or do you want to -- 15 ok ay. 16 MR. BROOKMAN: We're very close. Yeah. 17 MS. WIDDER: So we got something. We 18 go t something like 94 when we plugged in all the 19 da ta, 94 percent efficiency of our drive, and when 20 we apply that to the equation, we get a PER of 21 34 .04 in this case, which, if we remember from the 22 pr evious slides, the control case with a VFD was

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 37 1 35 .15 I think it was. So we've done better in this 2 ca se based on all our assumptions. 3 MR. CAPPELLINO: Where did the 94 get 4 in ? 5 MS. WIDDER: Where did the 94 get in? 6 Oo p. Back here. So it's plugged in, in this 7 ef ficiency of the drive. And there is a lot of 8 ac tually -- so there are many, many calculations 9 in here that I didn't include in all of the 10 sl ides. I mean, I should make a sheet with all 11 th ese calculations. But to get this efficiency of 12 th e drive number, we take the 94 percent that we 13 go t here for this 75 percent load case, and then 14 we also have the efficiency of the motor and the 15 mo tor losses that all get calculated for each load 16 po int, and so the efficiency that you're dividing 17 th e pump shaft input power by is different at each 18 lo ad point and will account for all of those 19 th ings. Oh, no, sorry. That was confusing. I 20 ta ke that back. This is the tested case. This 21 ac counts for the motor efficiency. We don't have 22 to do that separately. I take that back. I'm

### Capital Reporting Company Commercial/Industrial Pumps Working Group 03-27-2014

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 38 1 co nfusing myself. 2 This is combined motor drive efficiency. 3 We plug this number in directly for each load 4 po int, so we calculate four of these. This is the 5 75 percent case, but we would calculate one for 6 10 0 percent of BEP flow, 110 percent of BEP flow, 7 an d 50 percent of BEP flow. We would stick that 8 di rectly into the denominator here for each of the 9 ca ses, apply the pump input power from our tests, 10 an d then the weighting. 11 Okay. And one other thing. So the pump 12 in put power here would be assuming a speed curve 13 ag ain. It would be assuming that you're moving 14 do wn a system curve since you only have pump 15 pe rformance data as tested to 40.6, which is at 16 fu ll speed. 17 Okay. So it's one way of getting to the 18 sa me place that we had with the calculation, but 19 in stead of assuming motor efficiency and applying 20 mo tor losses and then assuming some factor, some 21 50 percent savings, that you get from control. We 22 no w have rated efficiency that we can apply

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 39 1 di rectly for the motor drive package, and then we 2 as sume the same system curve for the pump. So 3 it 's the same way of getting to the same place, or 4 di fferent way of getting to the same place. We 5 go t a better PER in this case. 6 This is just words explaining what I did 7 on the slides. 8 The full wire-to-water testing method I 9 do n't think requires a lot of discussion. It's 10 ju st like wire-to-water testing for a bare pump 11 an d motor, except for in this case we're not 12 th rottling. You would sweep your pump curve, 13 me asure rated points at 110 percent and 100 14 pe rcent of BEP flow, and then find the other flow 15 po ints by just reducing the speed to the system. 16 So testing your pump with the drive that it's 17 go ing to be sold with and reducing speed to reach 18 a given flow with no throttling. 19 So this is just a comparison of the 20 ca lculation case. Oh, this is not right. Sorry. 21 So this was supposed to be a comparison of 22 ca lculation case, but now -- but both these charts

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 40 1 ar e the same. So what I'm going to do -- that 2 di dn't work very well. 3 MR. STARR: Well, the last number is 4 di fferent. 5 MS. WIDDER: Yes. So I'm going to 6 ch ange this in real time. So the testing case we 7 re member was -- you guys remember what it was? 8 It 's a test. This is a quiz. 9 (Laughter.) 10 MS. WIDDER: 45.08. Yep, 45.08, the 11 ca lculation one. Well, I'll go back and fill that 12 ou t later. I'm going to move on because -- 13 MR. BROOKMAN: Yeah. 14 MS. WIDDER: So if we compare those 15 me thods, in general, the point of this slide -- 16 an d I apologize that the data weren't correct, 17 th is is -- you know, we're all doing this sort of 18 wi thin 2 weeks from the last meeting. But the 19 po int of this slide -- sorry -- the point of this 20 sl ide was that if this were filled out correctly, 21 th e calculation case would be a worse PER rating, 22 it would be conservative in every case, and we

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 41 1 ma de sure that the assumptions were consistent 2 wi th that, and I can update the numbers to reflect 3 th at in the tables, but I'm not going to right 4 no w. 5 One thing to consider with the two 6 op tions, the calculation-based default and then 7 te sting methods that will result in better 8 ra tings, is we can allow that manufacturers or 9 pa rties certifying equipment have the option to 10 te st, or we can require the calculation method for 11 al l pumps. These are basically all options on the 12 ta ble, and they can be applied to all pumps, no 13 pu mps, some pumps, differently. So these are just 14 op tions. 15 The pros and cons, obviously, the 16 ca lculation method is less burdensome and very 17 re peatable because we all have the same 18 ca lculation. The physical test method is more 19 ac curate, allows for better differentiation of 20 eq uipment, but it's more burdensome. I think 21 th at's all clear. 22 So here is some of that sensitivity that

### Capital Reporting Company Commercial/Industrial Pumps Working Group 03-27-2014

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 42 1 I talked about before, looking at the load point 2 ch oices and the weighting and the denominators. 3 So the load points, all those calculations were 4 do ne with 50 percent, 75 percent, 100 percent, and 5 11 0 percent of BEP flow at the load points because 6 I felt like we had some general agreement that 7 th ose were pretty good assumptions. We also 8 lo oked at 75 percent, 100 percent, and 110 9 pe rcent. We did look at keeping the 10 25 percent load point that we initially 11 ta lked about in there even though there is some 12 te chnical difficulty with that in the throttled 13 pu mp, and then different iterations of those 14 nu mbers: 25, 50, 75, 100. We looked at five flow 15 po ints. So basically any factorial combination of 16 th ose numbers. 17 I have just presented a couple extreme 18 ex amples and two representative examples here just 19 so you can see the effect. So the load profiles 20 th at are in the table are the 25, 50, 75, and 100 21 pe rcent of BEP flow that was initially presented 22 in the framework document, and then moving to 50

### Capital Reporting Company Commercial/Industrial Pumps Working Group 03-27-2014

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 43 1 pe rcent, 75 percent, 100 percent, and 110 percent, 2 ho w that affects the rating. We also looked, just 3 as extreme cases, what is the maximum amount of 4 in put -- or maximum amount of impact the load 5 po int choice would have, look at, what if it was 6 ju st constant load at 25 percent loading and 7 co nstant load at 100 percent loading? 8 So you can see what the resultant PER 9 va lues are. These are assuming equal weighting 10 an d no denominator. The main thing that I think 11 is -- or the key takeaway for me was that it 12 do esn't really matter that much with no 25 percent 13 lo ad point. You are not going to -- the control 14 op tions will not look as good because there is no 15

-- so you can see that we don't get as good of 16 co ntrol performance as with the 25 percent load 17 po ints accounted for. So that's one point that I 18 th ink is worth bringing up. Other than that, I 19 th ink if we just all have the same load points, 20 so mething that's representative will be fine. 21 We also looked at weighting, the 22 we ightings. These are the Omega terms. They have

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 44 1 be en assumed to be equally weighted in all these 2 ca lculations. 3 We also looked at what happens if you 4 ap ply a normal load curve. So this is the normal 5 cu rve. We assumed that it goes from zero to 120 6 pe rcent of BEP flow. That was an assumption. 7 And there are two ways of selecting 8 va lues from this normal load curve. One is you 9 ca n pick the discrete values, which are 10 re presented by the red blocks here, and normalize 11 th em to one, and so in that case you are more 12 he avily weighting this 50 percent point because 13 it 's higher on the curve, or you can do bins. So 14 th at's what the green boxes represent. You can 15 in tegrate all of these points and assign them to 16 50 percent loading, and integrate all of these 17 po ints and assign them to 75 percent. 18 And I assumed that we integrated up to 19 th e points. You could do a slice. There are a 20 lo t of ways you could pick, slice and dice, the 21 no rmal load curve, but just looking at those two 22 ex amples, so here is what the weights would be if

### Capital Reporting Company Commercial/Industrial Pumps Working Group 03-27-2014

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 45 1 we have -- equal weighting is obviously the green 2 ba r, the normalized bins where we integrate it up 3 ar e these light blue bars, and the normalized 4 di screte values are the dark blue bars, so in 5 ge neral the discrete values, the more heavily 6 we ighted, the lower load points. The bins less 7 so . We had the most weighting at a 75 percent 8 lo ad, and then the equal weighting is equal 9 we ighting. 10 And then this table just gives an 11 ex ample of comparing the equal weighting to the 12 di screte values. 13 UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: They're all 14 ex act -- 15 MS. WIDDER: They're all the same. 16 Th ese are not the right slides. Oh, my gosh. I'm 17 so rry. 18 So there are numbers that should be in 19 th is table, too, that are not. These must not be 20 th e most recent ones. 21 MR. BROOKMAN: Let's just keep moving 22 on .

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 46 1 MS. WIDDER: Okay. Anyways, I -- but I 2 ne ed that data. Okay, I'll fill it in. 3 So for the denominators, we talked about 4 th e impact of the different denominators, whether 5 or not and why you would want to have a 6 de nominator or not. In general, if you don't have 7 a denominator, you get very strong function of 8 sp eed and flow, and you also have larger numbers, 9 wh ich makes it easier to differentiate changes in 10 ef ficiency. So when I put the efficient motor on, 11 my PER was reduced by 2 points in the example 12 ca se. If you normalize it, the numbers will be 13 no t as large, they will be somewhere between zero 14 an d 1, maybe a little bit higher than 1, depending 15 on what the denominator is. So if you apply a 95 16 pe rcent efficient motor, it will change in the 17 hu ndredths place as opposed to in the single 18 di gits place, just based on the magnitude of the 19 va lues. But it might be more intuitive to have 20 so mething that scales between zero and 1, so there 21 ar e pros and cons on both sides. 22 So these are some options that we

### Capital Reporting Company Commercial/Industrial Pumps Working Group 03-27-2014

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 47 1 co nsidered previously. The power consumption of 2 th e same pump. I really should take that off the 3 ta ble. That's what the EEI is based on, but it's 4 no t something that's applicable for this metric 5 ne cessarily. The referenced shaft power for a 6 mi nimally compliant pump would result in values 7 be tween zero and 1 and would help indicate the 8 pe rformance of that pump to some minimum standard 9 le vel. We could also look at tying it to a market 10 av erage, so comparing that pump to some place in 11 th e market that is representative of the typical 12 pu mp. That means that your values won't quite be 13 be tween zero and 1. You might have a pump that is 14 so ld in the market that is slightly worse than the 15 ma rket average, and so you would result in values 16 hi gher than 1. And then we could also just do the 17 pu mp's tested hydraulic power. That is the most - 18 - the simplest method, but it also does result in 19 va lues higher than 1. 20 But the tested hydraulic power is a 21 di rect output of the test, of 40.6. So we have 22 th ose values, we don't have to do any other

### Capital Reporting Company Commercial/Industrial Pumps Working Group 03-27-2014

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 48 1 ca lculations or manipulation to them; they're part 2 of the test. 3 And we also discussed I think yesterday 4 th at we could apply these at BEP only or we could 5 ap ply them at each load point. So we could 6 ca lculate a ratio at each load point as a 7 no rmalization or just have a static normalization. 8 In this case, that's a lot of options to 9 an alyze. I just presented if we do a static 10 no rmalization based on BEP, so that would be the 11 eq uation that we've been showing. I should have 12 ha d an equation here, but the equation we've been 13 sh owing with the pump input power over one 14 de nominator at BEP flow. 15 So that's what these cases represent 16 wh ere the PER old is the PER we calculated in all 17 th e examples we just went through, and then the 18 de nominator is whatever, is the value, is 19 hy draulic power, is shaft power of the pump, is a 20 mi nimally compliant pump, which in this case is 21 as sociated with an MEI-10. Just these are 22 pr eliminary data, don't take them home, but that's

### Capital Reporting Company Commercial/Industrial Pumps Working Group 03-27-2014

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 49 1 ju st based on the data we have, something like an 2 ME I-10 and something like an MEI-50 for the market 3 av erage. 4 This would be the horsepower that would 5 be the value in the denominator, and then these 6 wo uld be the resultant values for a bare shaft 7 pu mp, a pump plus motor, or a pump plus motor and 8 VF D. These are all a lot closer to 1 now that 9 th ey're normalized. 10 For the hydraulic power case, we get 11 va lues around 1, somewhat higher than 1; a little 12 bi t less than 1 with a VFD. Shaft power accounts 13 fo r the efficiency of the pump, it doesn't account 14 fo r the efficiency of the motor controls in the 15 bo ttom. And then the minimally compliant market 16 av erage pump, you now have values between zero and 17 1, or can accomplish values between zero and 1. 18 So that's all that I have. Thank you 19 fo r being patient, everyone. 20 MR. BROOKMAN: That was a lot. 21 MS. WIDDER: It was a lot. 22 MR. BROOKMAN: Yeah. What's the best

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 50 1 wa y to entertain questions? Shall we try and keep 2 th em conceptual and high level first? 3 MS. WIDDER: No. I think it's time -- 4 MR. BROOKMAN: Start at the beginning? 5 MS. WIDDER: I think we can get into the 6 de tails. I don't know if we want to go 7 ch ronologically or just whoever has questions. 8 MR. BROOKMAN: Well, let's start with 9 wh oever has got questions. 10 Al Huber. 11 MS. WIDDER: Louis has a suggestion. 12 MR. BROOKMAN: Louis, yes. 13 MR. STARR: This is Louis Starr with 14 NE EA. I think it would be better if we just go 15 ba ck to the slide deck again because -- 16 MS. WIDDER: Yeah. 17 MR. STARR: -- it's a natural 18 pr ogression of how the difficulties might go. 19 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. 20 MS. WIDDER: Right. 21 MR. STARR: If you pump, that's going to 22 be ideal.

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 51 1 MR. BROOKMAN: I saw Al first, then I 2 sa w Steve, then I saw Chuck. 3 MR. HUBER: Al Huber, Patterson. Going 4 ba ck -- and I'm not going to go all the way back 5 to the front of the slides; okay? 6 MS. WIDDER: Okay. Tell me where you 7 wa nt to go. 8 MR. HUBER: My concern is, how are you 9 go ing to regulate it? In other words, when you're 10 lo oking at these factors of 50, 75, 100, and 110, 11 in the MEI, of course, we had three, and the way 12 th e Europeans set it up, you had to meet all 13 th ree. If you miss one of them, you still didn't 14 pa ss. In other words, if you were low on the 75, 15 bu t you were okay on the 100 and 110, that pump 16 st ill didn't make it. So how you conceptually are 17 go ing to regulate it is important to us, as an 18 in dustry, so that we need to know that up front so 19 th at when we pick these options and we pick these 20 th ings, we know we're not going to be favoring one 21 ma nufacturer over another because of where their 22 ef ficiency lies on that curve.

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 52 1 MS. WIDDER: Right. 2 MR. HUBER: You understand what I'm 3 tr ying to say. 4 MS. WIDDER: Yeah. In this case, in 5 wh at we've just presented here -- and this is just 6 a proposal, it's not -- I mean, we can have a 7 di scussion, and I don't know what the requirements 8 ar e -- but in this case, the standard would be a 9 PE R, it would be something like 50-horsepower, and 10 th en this pump would pass, and you could then 11 th eoretically design a pump that was very 12 ef ficient at BEP and dropped off but would still 13 pa ss in this construct. 14 MR. ADIN: I think what Sarah is saying 15 is that there is one number. So there is a 16 st andard based on one number and a rating that's 17 on e number, and there is no three rating points in 18 th is case, yeah. And so I guess a question from 19 ou r point, our side, would be, is there a 20 pa rticular reason that it would be better to have 21 th ree or -- 22 MR. HUBER: Well, it would prevent

### Capital Reporting Company Commercial/Industrial Pumps Working Group 03-27-2014

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 53 1 ma nufacturers from what Chuck was trying to relate 2 to you yesterday, and that is somebody trying to - 3 - and you can do that, that you can hit the peak 4 an d you can hit it high enough, but that won't 5 he lp the customer because the customer may be 6 op erating off of peak one way or the other, and he 7 ma y be disadvantaged, the customer. The consumer 8 ma y be disadvantaged because he may not be 9 op erating there. 10 MR. BROOKMAN: Yeah. Let's let Chuck 11 fo llow on. Yeah. Microphone. 12 MR. POWERS: Chuck Powers from 13 Fl owserve. I would enjoy going through each 14 sl ide. It adds value to give feedback. 15 MR. BROOKMAN: Yeah, let's do that. 16 MR. POWERS: But I want to back up. 17 He re's where I want to back up. We would go 18 th rough and try to ask questions and try to say 19 th at's good, that's not, but getting back to Al's 20 po int, until we understand the full picture at 21 th is level, going through these slides now would 22 be great, no problem, we can add comments, you can

### Capital Reporting Company Commercial/Industrial Pumps Working Group 03-27-2014

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 54 1 go back because there are a bunch of errors and 2 th ere are odds and ends, but you've done a great 3 jo b, but I want to step back for a minute and just 4 lo ok at this bigger picture. 5 MS. WIDDER: Okay. 6 MR. POWERS: And here's why. Bear with 7 me . 8 Number one, I've been through a lot of 9 th ese in the past and companies and pump guys and 10 co nsultants have all made mistakes and we've paid 11 fo r it over the years. Okay? 12 Rule number one is we need to look at a 13 hi gh level and say to ourselves, okay, whatever we 14 en d up agreeing to here, should we give it a 15 ge station period, meaning we've agreed to one 16 be fore, there is a date we want to have it comply, 17 bu t should we say it will apply to X amount over 18 ti me? 19 Here's why. What if we overlook 20 so mething and all of a sudden 50 percent of the 21 ma nufacturers out there are in trouble, not 22 be cause we've done something wrong, not because

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 55 1 we 're trying to hedge them, or to Al's point, keep 2 gu ys out of it and other guys in of it, but what 3 if all of a sudden we have an uproar because of 4 th e fact that we've overlooked something and we 5 ca use some serious concern with people? 6 So rule number one, one guideline 7 re commendation being, how can we somehow hedge 8 th is to say it's only going to apply to 10 percent 9 of the products new going out, 20 percent, 30 10 pe rcent? You know, I'm trying to look at so we 11 ca n start to get the feeling of the impact. I 12 do n't know how we're going to do that so we don't 13 ha ve a disaster on our hands a year from now and 14 re alize we overlooked something here we didn't 15 pi ck up on; right? Number one. Because we only 16 ha ve a representative group here; right? 17 Number two, the weighting factors is a 18 bi g one; right? Like Al was bringing up, three 19 ve rsus the others you have. There are assumptions 20 ma de in here to basic math that say you do a good 21 jo b, but you put stuff in without, you know, 22 re ally understanding you've change the affinity

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 56 1 la ws a little bit, you know, and you're making, "I 2 th ink I'll just do it this way." My worry is 3 pr actical experience versus theoretical 4 ex perience; right? You're doing it from an 5 an alytical/theoretical, but you may not have a lot 6 of practical experience. So when head goes by the 7 sq uare and power goes by the cube, we develop 8 st uff certain ways over the years, that's the 9 pr actical way we develop hydraulics in products. 10 The third thing that concerns me, it's 11 ge tting to a level that Charlie and I for sure 12 se e, maybe some of the manufacturers, of the 13 en gineered products. You know, we see engineered 14 bi g 5,000- horse, 4,000, we deal with this every 15 da y, multiple shape of curves, how are we going to 16 pl ay with it? These little standardized thousands 17 of pumps a day that go out the door, they make 18 th em one way, and if you want to tweak them at 25 19 pe rcent or tweak them at 50 percent, they're going 20 to look at you saying, "Look, I've got 2,000 21 ca stings sitting on the shelf. What do you want me 22 to do? I tried to meet you in the first place,

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 57 1 an d now you're hedging me, and we're in trouble as 2 a manufacturer, and we're done. We're not going 3 to make any of these." You know what I mean? 4 So what I'm trying to say is we could go 5 th rough and look at each one of these, but until 6 we understand the bigger picture, I don't 7 ne cessarily want to agree to anything here, not 8 th at I don't want to because I have to, but we 9 ne ed to understand this better -- 10 UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: Sure. 11 MS. WIDDER: Yeah. 12 MR. POWERS: -- and to really understand 13 th e impact. And we're starting to play with 14 ma thematics here that's different than the way 15 Ei nstein wrote it, you know, so to speak. 16 MR. BROOKMAN: But, Steve, let me stick 17 wi th the -- Charlie, you're next -- with the 18 ma nufacturers and just hear some of these 19 ad ditional -- let's fill out the concerns here. 20 Go ahead, Charlie. 21 MR. CAPPELLINO: Charlie Cappellino, 22 IT T. So I like the concept of having fundamentally

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 58 1 th ree different ways of looking at the systems, 2 yo u know, the bare pump, the bare pump plus motor, 3 an d the bare pump plus motor plus drive. There is 4 a lot of complexity, frankly, because of that, 5 wh ich creates a lot of different scenarios and 6 di fferent variations. 7 So I kind of go back to a couple of 8 co mments that were made earlier. I think before I 9 wo uld want to make a decision on the acceptability 10 or such, I think we've got to answer and spend 11 so me time on two questions. One is put yourself 12 in the shoes of a manufacturer and say, how would 13 I implement this? And kind of walk us through 14 th at. And what would be the steps that I would 15 ha ve to go through to actually implement? What 16 ki nd of calculations? What kind of testing? And 17 cr eate a scenario and say, if I've got, you know, 18 30 0 pumps that I need to qualify, what would I do? 19 An d kind of walk us through that. 20 And then the second question is the same 21 on e that was raised earlier, is, how would I 22 re gulate that?

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 59 1 MS. WIDDER: Right. 2 MR. CAPPELLINO: And so I think you have 3 to spend just as much time on that piece of it as 4 th e piece that you presented thus far because the 5 co mplexity of the implementation or the simplicity 6 of the implementation -- I mean, elegant solutions 7 ar e always the best solutions; right? 8 MS. WIDDER: Mm-hmm. 9 MR. CAPPELLINO: Elegant in design is, 10 he y, I get my intended purpose but with as much 11 si mplicity as I can. I think that's what we've 12 go t to strive for here because there are hundreds 13 of pumps that need to be, quote/unquote, 14 qu alified, and then, you know, there are hundreds 15 of pumps that get quoted every minute across the 16 co untry, and how are we going to wrap the 17 pr acticality around that? 18 MS. WIDDER: Right. 19 MR. CAPPELLINO: So simplifying 20 as sumptions that at the same time don't create an 21 ad vantage or disadvantage for one manufacturer or 22 an other but at the same time have it practical

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 60 1 fr om an implementation standpoint would be my 2 co mment. 3 MS. WIDDER: Right. 4 MR. BROOKMAN: Steve, do you have a 5 si mple question or a difficult question? 6 MR. ROSENSTOCK: I'll just start with a 7 hi gh level of concepts. I wrote down notes. You 8 to ld me to write down notes. I have notes on 9 di fferent slides, but -- 10 MR. BROOKMAN: I think we're at the 11 po int where we'll return and we'll go 12 se quentially. 13 MR. ROSENSTOCK: I have a couple of 14 hi gh- level thoughts here. This is really good 15 in formation. Personally, I have trouble without a 16 de nominator here because I think the way it's 17 pr esented now will cause possible market 18 co nfusion. We have all these examples of a pump 19 wi th a 60-horsepower motor as a driver. That's the 20 fu ll -- basically the example throughout these 21 sl ides. You have these different PER levels that 22 sa y 45- or 37-horsepower, for example, as the

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 61 1 fi nal output. 2 There might some customers -- I've deal 3 wi th a lot of customers when I was with Utility 4 an d at EEI that I have a funny feeling in my 5 pe rsonal opinion they would say, "Gee, the PER 6 sa ys 45-horsepower. Why do I need a 60-horsepower 7 mo tor? Why are you oversizing the motor?" 8 MR. BROOKMAN: Right. 9 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Because it's not 10 in trinsically understandable. I think there needs 11 to be some sort of denominator in there that says 12 fo r this system, this is the relative efficiency 13 of that product. I think that's important 14 re gardless of whether it's bare pump, pump plus 15 mo tor, pump plus motor plus controls. I know how 16 mu ch work went into it, but I'm just saying 17 in trinsically. 18 The second thing I wanted to say is -- 19 an d it kind of leads back to the example, and I 20 ap preciate that one slide, but in terms of let's 21 ta lk about smaller pumps, smaller pump motors. 22 Le t's say you have a choice of a 5- or a 7.5-

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 62 1 ho rsepower, or 7.5 to a 10, where the incremental 2 co sts might not be that great, but you do some of 3 th ese equations, and just because the efficiencies 4

-- the incremental efficiency is significantly 5 hi gher going from 7.5 to 10, both at full load and 6 pa rt load, you get a better PER. 7 Again, I worry about, is this leading to 8 pe ople just oversizing to get lower PERs, which 9 me ans they might get a market advantage? 10 So, again, just the two concepts up 11 th ere in terms of I have specific, but that was 12 ki nd of my general -- 13 MS. WIDDER: Okay. 14 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Gary Fernstrom. 15 MS. WIDDER: So -- 16 MR. BROOKMAN: Do you want to respond? 17 MS. WIDDER: Well, I feel like there was 18 so me high-level concern about how this works from 19 a certification standpoint and how it compares to 20 th e standard, that do we want to stay on that 21 di scussion or -- 22 MR. BROOKMAN: Well, let's hear a few

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 63 1 mo re overview comments, and then we'll start 2 ad dressing them. 3 MS. WIDDER: Okay. Great. 4 MR. BROOKMAN: Gary Fernstrom. 5 MR. FERNSTROM: So Gary, representing 6 th e California IOUs. Maybe this is a naive 7 qu estion, but it kind of follows on to Charlie and 8 St eve's thought, where we're developing a scale 9 he re, and there will be a standard set for sure, 10 bu t I'm wondering how we would use this scale to 11 im plement a utility energy efficiency program. So 12 I' m looking for some metric to characterize the 13 en ergy efficiency performance from just meets 14 st andard to better, maybe significantly better 15 th an the standard, and I'm not understanding how 16 we would use this number to drive the efficiency 17 pr ogram. And it would be helpful as we move 18 fo rward to kind of address that. 19 MR. BROOKMAN: Paul Lin. 20 MR. LIN: Paul Lin with Regal-Beloit. 21 Ma ybe just to tack on a question in terms of 22 ce rtification, but before we get to certification,

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 64 1 I guess maybe the question I have is how the value 2 is going to get derived in terms of the minimum 3 st andard. So if we have a PER setting or equation 4 he re, and at some point we're going to set a value 5 th at you have to meet, how is that value going to 6 be determined in order for these manufacturers to 7 me et it? What's the process? Is it a regression 8 an alysis based on X amount of pumps tested and 9 th en a value is then determined or -- 10 MS. WIDDER: And so it will be set in 11 th e same way that -- so it will be set based on 12 ef ficiency, potential efficiency, improvements of 13 th e pump, the hydraulic performance of the pump, 14 on ly. So in the PER equation, that's represented 15 in the pump shaft power input for a given flow and 16 he ad condition, and essentially we would look at 17 ho w the pump shaft power could be decreased at a 18 gi ven flow and head condition. Just like in other 19 ru lemakings where we consider potential 20 im provements to equipment, we will consider 21 po tential improvements to the pump design that 22 wi ll make the pump perform better and will reduce

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 65 1 th e pump shaft input power or increase the 2 ef ficiency of the pump and then plug that into the 3 eq uation just like it was -- plug it into the bare 4 sh aft pump equation to determine the PER in that 5 ca se and then it will be the same standards 6 an alysis accounting for the cost of those 7 ef ficiency improvements. We went through some of 8 th e steps really briefly yesterday. 9 Yeah. 10 MR. ADIN: So, I'm sorry, I don't mean 11 to interrupt. 12 MS. WIDDER: No. Go for it, please. 13 MR. BROOKMAN: Lucas. 14 MR. ADIN: Was your question more about 15 ho w a standard is determined using this particular 16 me tric, or how we get to a baseline for the market 17 an d then establish a threshold level? Because 18 th ere is a process that we use by which we 19 de termine what the current market baseline is, 20 li ke what all the pumps out there look like now, 21 th e range of efficiencies, and then establish 22 di fferent cutoff levels. So is that really more

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 66 1 wh at your question is about or -- 2 MR. LIN: It's Paul Lin with Regal. I 3 th ink it's a little bit of both of what you asked. 4 MR. ADIN: Okay. So everything that 5 Sa rah said is correct, but that's one dimension of 6 it , and then the other part is this underlying, 7 ho w do you determine the state of the market now 8 an d then there are certain efficiency, level of 9 ef ficiency, improvements, so 10 percent, 20 10 pe rcent, 30 percent. We talked about that a little 11 bi t yesterday. And so you're evaluating each of 12 th ose potential standard levels of efficiency 13 im provement above the baseline. 14 MR. BROOKMAN: Tom Eckman. 15 MR. ECKMAN: I think from a practical 16 st andpoint we negotiate what those are. That's 17 th e bottom line. We'll have all this analysis, 18 bu t in the end, we've got to come to an agreement 19 ab out what those endpoints are. 20 MR. LIN: Right. And I think that's 21 ma ybe what more of my question is, is -- 22 MR. ECKMAN: It's in this room or some

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 67 1 ro om like this. 2 MR. LIN: We're going to define the PER 3 eq uation, and then the next step then is going to 4 de termine what the base improvement is going to 5 be , or is that going to be the purview of the DOE 6 in terms of determining what the improvements are 7 an d then -- 8 MR. ECKMAN: My understanding is the 9 re ason this workgroup was formed was to come to an 10 ag reement about what that's going to be. 11 MR. BROOKMAN: That's my understanding 12 as well. 13 MR. ADIN: To explain like how we would 14 ge t numbers to negotiate on, we decide on this, 15 an d then use this to come up with some different 16 sc enarios, different standard, potential standard, 17 le vels, and look at what all the economic and 18 en ergy saving numbers would look like based upon 19 ea ch of those scenarios. So there would be 20 ce rtain lifecycle costs, certain payback periods, 21 fo r the pumps we're considering based upon each of 22 th ose improvements, and then we negotiate on the

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 68 1 ba sis of whatever those results are. Does that 2 he lp a little bit? 3 MR. LIN: Yeah. 4 MR. ADIN: Okay. 5 MR. BROOKMAN: Chuck Powers. 6 MR. POWERS: Yeah. So this conversation 7 is excellent. Right? So I'm just trying to go 8 th rough my head. Let's take a standard end9 su ction pump that there are numbers here that 10 sh ows it's made by the thousands. Right? A 11 co mpany like ourselves and probably every one of 12 th e guys at this table -- guys or girls -- would 13 to day get a sand casting. We don't take that one 14 sa nd casting and say, "Here's the efficiency." 15 Ri ght? We test several of them, we play with 16 th em, because sand casting technology, there is a 17 lo t of play. So the one on the shelf over here 18 th is day -- I'm picking a dumb number -- 75 19 pe rcent, but the one over there when you test it 20 is 74 percent, the one over here. So when we come 21 ou t with published data, most manufacturers try to 22 av erage it and try to say, "Okay, we think the

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 69 1 ra nge is going to be 74-1/2," I'm just picking a 2 nu mber. 3 Then there are newer technologies, and 4 th e newer technologies is getting into lost foam. 5 Yo u can get into composite materials where you get 6 re peatability, sustainability, and better, and 7 th ere's a lot of factors. Right? But all that 8 st uff costs a lot of money. Right? So will the 9 ma rket bear that? Will the market pay for these 10 ne wer technologies and all? And generally 11 sp eaking somebody might say, well, that guy that 12 wa lks into Lowe's expects to buy that thing the 13 sa me price each day, he doesn't expect to see a 14 do uble in price -- right? -- for what it's worth. 15 But then it also opens up the offshore 16 ma nufacturers to come to the stage with that 17 pr oduct because their cost to build it, their cost 18 to do those lost foam, where this technology is, 19 an d some of the stuff offshore, is better, is 20 lo wer cost to do. So all of a sudden we might see 21 a degradation of the U.S. 22 manufacturers and then improvement for

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 70 1 th e guys offshore to come to the States and say, 2 "L ook, we can meet that because we're going to do 3 it with lost foam, we haven't been doing it for 4 10 0 years with sand castings." I'm not saying 5 sa nd castings shouldn't migrate, but then you go 6 to this manufacturer and say, "We're going to have 7 10 0 of your pumps are going to change tomorrow," 8 10 0 models of that particular thing changing 9 to morrow, that will impact him tremendously. 10 Ri ght? 11 So Charlie touched on it, my friend at 12 th e end touched on it, is, what are we setting and 13 wh at is the process we're going to go through to 14 tr y to make sure it's as reasonable as possible 15 fo r the players involved? 16 UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: Yeah. 17 MR. POWERS: You know what I mean? We 18 ha ve to look beyond just -- whatever we end up 19 ag reeing here is great. You know, Sarah is trying 20 to get some kind of formation. 21 The other thing that we have to take 22 no te on is just also what kind of benefit -- you

### Capital Reporting Company Commercial/Industrial Pumps Working Group 03-27-2014

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 71 1 kn ow, I heard from Gary, I like that idea. In 2 ot her words, do we say here is the normal level we 3 se e today in efficiency on a product, and we would 4 li ke to see a X percent improvement over 5 years? 5 Do you know what I mean? Do we want to say, okay, 6 he re the calculations come out and say we think 7 ac ross the board for this particular product, 8 ef ficiencies or whatever is X? And we, as an 9 in dustry, want to see both sides of the fence 10 he re, we want to see an X percent improvement over 11 5 years, but what is that pain we go through to 12 ge t there and how quickly do we do it? 13 UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: Yeah. 14 MS. WIDDER: So -- oh, sorry. Go ahead. 15 MR. BROOKMAN: No, I was just going to 16 re state what Lucas said a moment ago. I think, 17 fr om my perspective, Sarah has tried to create a 18 lo t of content that covers the array of pump 19 co nfiguration options that we have been 20 de scribing, pumps plus pump plus driver plus pump 21 pl us driver plus control, and maybe she's made it 22 a little too complicated in an effort to cover all

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 72 1 th ose bases. But irrespective, whatever this 2 wo rking group decides is the way that efficiency 3 wi ll be measured will be the basis for measurement 4 go ing forward, and then for any given pump that is 5 in scope, you all will then be negotiating how 6 st ringent to make the standard. That's the most 7 ba sic -- that's the very most basic way this is 8 su pposed to work. 9 MS. WIDDER: And I think one important 10 po int is I completely acknowledge that the metric 11 fo r determining pump performance may be completely 12 di fferent than what we just went through now. I 13 me an, it could be anything based on what the 14 co mmittee in this room decides. And I think we 15 al l respect that it's going to have implications 16 fo r what the standard is, but we need -- in order 17 to be able to calculate potential standard levels 18 an d have this discussion around, "How much does it 19 co st? What is the burden for manufacturers to 20 im prove pump performance this much? And how does 21 th at improve our rating versus how the market will 22 be ar that?" in order to have all these discussions

### Capital Reporting Company Commercial/Industrial Pumps Working Group 03-27-2014

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 73 1 an d have real numbers to support potential energy 2 im provements and the impact, the national impact, 3 we need to have a basis for analysis, which is 4 re ally -- so we're not going to decide on all of 5 th ese things today, and even if we decide anything 6 to day, it won't be set in stone necessarily. 7 But in order to move forward and come up 8 wi th some of those potential levels and talk about 9 co sts and impacts and have this more high-level 10 di scussion with some real information, we need to 11 be able to decide on a couple key things, like if 12 th is general framework works, then we can start 13 mo ving forward and gathering data about what the 14 ma rket looks like today at these load points and 15 wh at types of -- if we were to improve pump 16 pe rformance by polishing or by doing some of these 17 ot her incremental improvements that I know Dan and 18 hi s team have been talking to manufacturers about, 19 we can do that at the next meeting once we have a 20 co nstruct to represent pump performance with. So 21 th at's really the goal of today. 22 MR. BROOKMAN: Lucas Adin.

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 74 1 MR. ADIN: So I don't know if I have 2 ac tually anything more specific to add beyond what 3 Sa rah just said, and I think Alison might have a 4 co uple of points, too. But getting to Chuck's 5 qu estion, I mean, I think the best way to 6 su mmarize all of this is that at the end of the 7 da y it is a cost-benefit analysis, so the things 8 th at you described are costs, and those are 9 ac counted for, and each of those scenarios will 10 lo ok at whatever percentage improvement over that 11 ba seline there are costs associated with it, and 12 we 're comparing that to the energy savings, 13 sa vings to consumers, all that. It's a balance. 14 MR. BROOKMAN: And looking at employment 15 im pacts and all those features. 16 MR. POWERS: I hope so because when the 17 he alth care program came out, it didn't work day 18 on e. 19 (Laughter.) 20 MR. POWERS: And we don't need that 21 re peated. In this type of manufacturing world, we 22 do n't need that repeated.

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 75 1 MR. BROOKMAN: Al? 2 Understood. 3 Go ahead. 4 MR. HUBER: I think maybe some of our 5 fo lks are not as familiar as some of the rest of 6 us . The reason that you -- my understanding, the 7 re ason that -- and correct me if I'm wrong, Lucas, 8 so this is basically directed to you, I think -- 9 th e reason that we're trying to go for one metric 10 is because you can't -- it was HI's desire to 11 br ing the motor and the control in because we 12 be lieve that's where the greater savings are. And 13 le gally or whatever, you can't have two metrics. 14 Am I wrong on that or am I right on that or is 15 th at -- I mean, the Europeans have got an MEI for 16 th e pump and they've got an EEI for the system. 17 Ok ay? You're trying to combine it into one, and 18 th at's one of the things that's making it very 19 di fficult, I think. That -- yeah. I think some 20 of our people don't see that. You're forcing this 21 in to one metric because you think you have to, I 22 gu ess.

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 76 1 MR. ADIN: That's my understanding. 2 Ce rtainly to the extent that -- 3 MS. KOHL: As I understood it -- 4 MR. BROOKMAN: That was Lucas. Now 5 Be tsy. 6 MS. KOHL: -- the issue is comparability 7 wi th this metric, that there would be a way to 8 ha ve everything be EEI with just one metric. 9 Ri ght? MEI is bare pump, but if you pair it with 10 yo ur standard motor -- the issue, as I understand 11 it , there is not a dual metric prohibition, it's 12 no t a legal issue, it's a comparability issue. 13 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Back to Lucas. 14 MR. ADIN: Thanks for clarifying, Betsy. 15 I don't think I have anything to add to that. 16 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Louis and then to 17 Me g. 18 MR. STARR: So one is a question and 19 th en another one is a suggestion. 20 So I guess the kind of much bigger 21 pi cture, I had always envisioned the intent was 22 ki nd of to sort of decide on an MEI and negotiate

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 77 1 th ose levels and then to kick out some kind of 2 me tric that reflects that. And so, I mean, I 3 un derstand that they're trying to stick with one 4 me tric, and that's kind of -- and comparing pumps, 5 ba re pumps, to things that have VFDs or other 6 co ntrol options, it's kind of why you're trying to 7 ke ep the one same metric, so you can compare 8 ap ples to oranges between the cross -- 9 MR. BROOKMAN: Right. So that the 10 co nsumer could look at -- 11 MR. STARR: For the consumer, but -- 12 MR. BROOKMAN: -- some rendering of that 13 an d make a choice. 14 MR. STARR: You could also do a metric 15 an d than have another one that's reported like you 16 do with motors. So you do a full motor load 17 ef ficiency that's the requirement, but then you 18 al so report something at 50 percent, but you're 19 no t regulated on the second one. 20 MR. BROOKMAN: Yeah. 21 MR. STARR: So if it's just a question 22 of trying to match up -- but, anyway, my main

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 78 1 po int is that actually I start to see someone is 2 tr ying to drive up there. I think the pump guys 3 un derstand MEI. If you were to ask them, if we 4 de cide on a level, they could come back tomorrow 5 wi th the analysis they've done because they've 6 sp ent the last 3 years, and they'll know kind of 7 wh at the effect of adjusting an MEI level is. By 8 do ing the PER, it's going to be a much harder 9 th ing for them to know how that's going to affect 10 th em and their -- 11 MR. BROOKMAN: Let me go to Mark. 12 Mark? 13 MR. HANDZEL: And just to follow up 14 pe rfectly along with Lucas -- I mean, Louis, I'm 15 so rry -- he's exactly on track because what's in 16 th e manufacturers' scope of control? The pump. 17 So , you know, that's why we're struggling, because 18 th at would define things very specifically for us, 19 an d you're right, we've done enough analysis, we 20 kn ow, we have a very comfortable feeling of where 21 we think we need to be. 22 MR. BROOKMAN: I note that Alison has

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 79 1 wa lked to the board here. 2 Go ahead. Go ahead. 3 MS. WILLIAMS: All right. So I just 4 wa nt to respond to a couple of things, including 5 Ma rk. So, I mean, I think what we've talked about 6 be fore is that how we would potentially set a 7 st andard would be basically starting with the MEI 8 le vels, and this group could pick whatever MEI 9 le vels that you want to look at, and Dan and I 10 wi ll use those in our analyses and present the 11 re sults for each of those levels. And what we 12 wo uld do is just -- you know, we would agree on 13 ho w we were going to do the default motor and 14 ag ree on what the default controls is, maybe it's 15 1, and so you're essentially just translating the 16 ME I levels to PER. So you understand the MEI, you 17 on ly have control over the bare pump and so this 18 is really the same thing, it's just a mathematical 19 tr anslation of the MEI to a PER. That's how 20 po tentially you would set the standard. 21 Yes, you can then use the metric to 22 ge t credit for better motors and controls, but in

### Capital Reporting Company Commercial/Industrial Pumps Working Group 03-27-2014

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 80 1 th e actual standard-setting process, it can really 2 ju st be a calculation, a translational thing, 3 wh ere you guys can think about MEI and how you 4 wa nt MEI to be. We can decide on how you do this. 5 Yo u can calculate it for all your pumps and see 6 wh at it looks like. It's not going to be exactly 7 th e same as the MEI. We know there is a little 8 bi t different when you plug it in, so you should 9 ce rtainly look at that for your pumps and see what 10 ha ppens, but it should be pretty much the same 11 fr ame of reference as you're used to with the 12 ME I. 13 MS. WIDDER: And then the other thing 14 th at I would add to that really quickly, just to 15 em phasize something else instead, is this is how 16 th e standard would be set based on MEI, based on 17 so me efficiency level of the pump, and then just 18 de fault assumptions that we assume in this room to 19 se t a standard level in terms of PER, but then the 20 be nefit of the construct that we just talked about 21 is when you're a pump -- so then we set a number 22 in this room and that's done, let's say it's 50

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 81 1 ju st for example, and so 50 is out there for a 2 gi ven class of pump, but then as we talked through 3 in the examples, if I am a pump manufacturer 4 ce rtifying my pump, I test my pump and I apply the 5 de fault equation, and I get some number slightly 6 be tter than 50, so I'm okay. If I got some number 7 sl ightly above 50, I could elect to sell that pump 8 wi th high-efficiency motors only and do no 9 hy draulic redesign whatsoever and still beat 50, 10 or I could sell that pump only with motors and 11 co ntrols and significantly beat 50. 12 I mean, there may be different -- there 13 ar e a lot of different standards that we will 14 co nsider, but it gives more options to 15 ma nufacturers as to how they approve the PER even 16 th ough that won't be considered in the latest -- 17 MR. BROOKMAN: Well, good. Okay. 18 Steve Rosenstock. 19 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Steve Rosenstock, EEI. 20 I don't see why we can't have multiple metrics. 21 Th ere are multiple metrics for other products out 22 th ere. Residential central air conditioners next

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 82 1 ye ar in certain parts of the country will have 2 bo th SEER and EER. Many ASHRAE commercial 3 pr oducts have -- especially for heating or 4 co oling, they have an integrated value, IPLV, 5 IE ER, as well as a full-load value. 6 So because customers are buying -- in my 7 vi ew, they're buying three different systems. 8 Th ey're buying just a bare pump system, a bare 9 pu mp and a motor, bare pump motor control, in my 10 vi ew, it's three separate purchasers, or 11 es pecially with a bare pump, it's just a 12 re placement. So why couldn't there be multiple 13 me trics? 14 I would feel better about, for example, 15 if we just said something like if you're just 16 bu ying a bare pump, customers are just buying a 17 ba re pump, if there was a way to do I'll say just 18 an MEI, that's how it should be rated. If they're 19 bu ying the pump and the motor, it could be MEI 20 pl us whatever the other metric is for that type of 21 sy stem. And then for the controls, a third set of 22 sy stems because obviously either, especially for

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 83 1 re placement situations, you could get all three. 2 So why not have -- I think it might be better in 3 th e marketplace to have three separate metrics. 4 Th at's my own personal view. Because that way a 5 cu stomer can compare apples to apples for their 6 es pecially replacement situation, not new, but 7 es pecially replacement. 8 MS. KOHL: So this is Betsy Kohl, DOE 9 OG C. There are some statutory authority for 10 di fferent metrics for different products are set 11 by statute. We don't have that here. So that's 12 wh y, as we understand it, we're limited to a 13 si ngle metric, a single standard. But we didn't 14 un derstand the MEI EEI to have that prohibition, 15 bu t it's very similar to the MEI feeding into PER, 16 wh ich is what we were looking at. 17 MS. WIDDER: Right. And I think one -- 18 MR. BROOKMAN: Let's hear from Al Huber. 19 Al Huber. 20 MR. HUBER: One of the things that at 21 le ast when we met with this group over here that 22 we were trying to do, and that's to drive the

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 84 1 ma rketplace to a more efficient operation of the 2 eq uipment. So I understand why we need one. I 3 me an, I understand it. I just want to make sure 4 ev erybody else understood why the desire to have 5 on e metric so that you could compare one against 6 th e other. 7 One of the things that I think a lot of 8 ou r group would like to see is -- psychologically, 9 as something gets better, it gets bigger. I mean, 10 it 's just like the SEER rating. You know, if I go 11 bu y an air conditioner today, you know, I don't 12 kn ow want to buy a 10, I want to buy a 16. So I 13 th ink -- I'm serious. I mean, that's -- and it's 14 ps ychologically out there. I think you need to 15 th ink about those things and make it as simple for 16 th e consumer as you can and try to make it where 17 th e better option is the one with the higher 18 ra ting rather than what you've done. And I'm not 19 cr iticizing what you've done, but, you know, they 20 mi ght not understand that 35 -- somebody might 21 pi ck that up and say, "Well, this one is 50, this 22 is 35, this 50 has got to be better." Well, it's

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 85 1 no t, but, you know, psychologically I think we 2 ne ed to consider that. 3 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. 4 MS. WIDDER: Okay. 5 MR. BROOKMAN: Thank you. We've heard 6 so me discussion on these lines previously. 7 Meg. 8 MS. WALTNER: Meg Waltner. So a follow 9 up question on the multiple metrics issue. So I 10 se e two sort of big questions within multiple 11 me trics. One is so we have these different pump 12 ca tegories, and do we use one metric for all of 13 th em, or do we use different metrics for all of 14 th em? And then within any individual metric, 15 th ere is the question of, do we average whatever 16 th e value is over multiple test points, or do we 17 ha ve a standard set for, you know, like the 18 Eu ropean standard, at three different test points? 19 Betsy, are you saying we can only have 20 on e metric in either of those pieces or -- and in 21 pa rticular, is it an option to have a standard 22 wh ere the standard would be set at multiple test

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 86 1 po ints rather than an average of the test points? 2 MS. KOHL: So my understanding of it is 3 th at the first issue is somewhat clearer. We 4 wo uld have one metric for pumps, but as far as at 5 th e different load points, I think there may be a 6 li ttle bit of flexibility there. We haven't 7 re ally thought that one through, but it's not as 8 cl ear-cut at least to us to have -- 9 MR. ADIN: Yeah. I don't think we ever 10 se t a standard on that basis. I'm trying to think 11 wh ether there are any statutory standards that are 12 li ke that, but I'm not aware that there are. 13 MR. BROOKMAN: Tom Eckman. 14 MR. ECKMAN: Well, the SEER standards 15 ar e basically over a range of operating 16 te mperatures. 17 UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: Right. 18 MR. ECKMAN: So the metric represents a 19 se asonal performance factor and not a point in 20 ti me. The EER represents a fixed temperature, 21 si ngle point. 22 MS. WIDDER: Right.

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 87 1 UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: Right. 2 MR. ECKMAN: And so you've got them 3 bo th. 4 MS. WIDDER: Right. 5 MR. ECKMAN: So there are options on 6 ho wever you want to play this golf game. Get a 7 pr ovisional shot, see if it works or not. 8 (L aughing.) 9 MS. WIDDER: Right. That's sort of what 10 we 're trying to accomplish here, is the same thing 11 as SEER and EER rolling up performance at multiple 12 po ints into one. 13 UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: That's 14 ri ght. 15 MS. WIDDER: So from a legal 16 pe rspective, I guess we'll have to discuss -- 17 di scover whether or not that's possible, but from 18 a practical standpoint, adapting levels at -- or 19 ad apting standards at each of the load points that 20 we were to determine, whether there are three or 21 fo ur or what they are, whatever they are, it will 22 de crease the flexibility manufacturers have when

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 88 1 pr oducing pumps. 2 You know, if there is a customer out 3 th ere who has a fixed head, fixed load condition, 4 he just wants really good performance at that 5 fi xed load condition and doesn't really care, 6 yo u're able to optimize performance at that 7 co ndition, and he doesn't really care about the 8 br oadness of his curve, and that's completely 9 ap propriate. Such a metric would make it more 10 di fficult to design that type of pump because it 11 wo uld require a broader pump shape, which is what 12 Eu rope has done. It's not a bad thing, it's just 13 a fact, that's what would happen. 14 MR. BROOKMAN: Louis Starr. 15 MR. STARR: So two things. One thing, 16 to get into the SEER thing, you could introduce 17 ho urs of operation in there, and you're sort of 18 ma king some of those assumptions, and then instead 19 of a horsepower, you would actually be getting 20 ki lowatt hours, and then that would -- and, as a 21 ma tter of fact, I sort of sent you something along 22 th at line.

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 89 1 MS. WIDDER: Yeah. So the weighting 2 co uld do that if we just assigned hours to the 3 we ights. 4 MR. STARR: Right. Yeah. It would also 5 he lp out the utility programs because you could 6 th en actually have an energy usage that you could 7 ca lculate. 8 MS. WIDDER: Sure. 9 MR. STARR: The other thing is, as 10 Jo anna and Tom have assured me, that -- 11 (Laughter.) 12 MR. STARR: -- the pump -- that really 13 al l you're introducing in here is a controls 14 fa ctor and a motor factor times an MEI. That's 15 es sentially what the calculation breaks down to. 16 MS. WIDDER: Yep. 17 MR. STARR: You could actually isolate 18 it so that's really how it -- I mean, you did it 19 wi th the load control factor -- right? -- you have 20 an LCF. 21 MS. WIDDER: Mm-hmm. 22 MR. STARR: And then if that was done on

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 90 1 th e motor, a motor control factor, somehow and so 2 th at you could really just stick an MEI in and 3 th en multiply it by times two factors, I think 4 th at would help understand that that really works 5 th at -- 6 MR. BROOKMAN: So let's hear from Greg. 7 MS. WIDDER: So the -- 8 MR. BROOKMAN: Let's hear from Greg. 9 MS. WIDDER: Okay. 10 UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: I think she 11 ha s a response. 12 MS. WIDDER: I think it's really -- it's 13 go ing to be really short, I promise. 14 MR. BROOKMAN: Yes, go ahead. 15 MS. WIDDER: But in that response to 16 th at, because I think it's a really good 17 su ggestion. The difficulty with plugging in -- I 18 me an, we could plug in pump efficiency instead of 19 pu mp shaft power at each of the load points, but I 20 th ink in order to capture the SEER-like nature of 21 th is, we need the value at each of the load 22 po ints, it can't just be a one number plug-and-

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 91 1 ch ug sort of thing. Otherwise, you're not able to 2 ap ply the weighting at each of the load points and 3 ca pture the performance at each of the load 4 po ints, but we could certainly flip the P and have 5 it be efficiency of the pump and then bring in 6 pu mp hydraulic power or something to accomplish 7 th e same thing. Does that make sense? 8 UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: Yeah. 9 MS. WIDDER: Okay. 10 MR. BROOKMAN: You're number three, 11 St eve. 12 Greg and then Charlie. 13 MR. CASE: Greg Case, Hydraulic 14 In stitute. I don't have a problem. I think to 15 fo llow what Louis was saying, we could make that a 16 va riable. That could be the pump control factor 17 or whatever. I mean, that could become a very 18 si mplified -- your big equation could drop down to 19 th at one variable that we create. So I don't think 20 th ere is a problem there. 21 I think your denominator, there were 22 ve ry small changes when you -- so if we had a

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 92 1 de nominator in there that made very small changes, 2 mu ltiply that by 1,000, and you end up with being 3 ab le to see what the changes are. 4 MS. WIDDER: Right. 5 MR. CASE: People have a physical, "Oh, 6 we ll, this is 1,000 this and this is -- 7 MS. WIDDER: Right. 8 MR. CASE: So, I mean, I don't see any 9 is sues there. I was wondering -- I was going to 10 lo ok at my caucus here, do we want to discuss some 11 of the issues that we have -- 12 MR. BROOKMAN: In a little bit we're 13 go ing to take a break, and there will be an 14 op portunity for you to discuss it. 15 MR. CASE: Okay. 16 MR. BROOKMAN: Charlie. 17 But what I'm hearing is that based on 18 th is chart here, that you can understand the tie 19 be tween MEI and PER with perhaps some rather 20 si mple default values here. Right? 21 Charlie. 22 MR. CAPPELLINO: Well, that was my

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 93 1 qu estion essentially because I was trying to 2 un derstand what Louis was saying, and I just 3 wa nted to say it and have somebody confirm. 4 So, again, the MEI piece we all 5 un derstand, we can set that level. And if I offer 6 a pump to a certain MEI level and it passes, if I 7 of fer that pump with a motor of a given and known 8 ef ficiency, there's a simple multiplying factor or 9 si mple factor that could be used, and then if I 10 us e a drive, there's a simple factor that I can 11 us e, so that it's really a fairly simple approach 12 on ce you've gotten the MEI straightened out? I 13 me an, is that a feasible scenario? 14 MR. BROOKMAN: This is Sarah. 15 MS. WIDDER: Yes. Yes. That's 16 co mpletely correct. If you -- so we'll just talk 17

-- 18 MR. CASE: So is everything that you 19 sh owed us really just background in terms of how 20 yo u calculate -- 21 MS. WIDDER: Yes. It's really just the 22 ni tty-gritty details.

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 94 1 MR. CASE: And you do that -- you've 2 do ne that one time as kind of reference material? 3 Yo u don't have to do that for each of your pumps 4 th at you're trying to qualify or sell into the 5 ma rketplace? 6 MS. WIDDER: So I'll talk through real 7 qu ick, and then I think we have another comment. 8 So you would rate a given pump. So 9 th ere are multiple models of pump, but a given 10 pu mp you would rate and you would determine the 11 ef ficiency at multiple points or the power at -- 12 yo u would get your 13 ME I. 14 MR. CASE: Which we do today, which we 15 do today. 16 MS. WIDDER: Your MEI, you do that 17 to day. 18 MR. CASE: Right. 19 MS. WIDDER: It's just fine. To sell 20 th at pump, you would have your factors that could 21 be more or less complicated, but you just plug it 22 in to an equation and get a number, and provided

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 95 1 it 's better than the standard, that's fine. If 2 yo u were to sell that pump with a more efficient 3 mo tor, the only thing -- and the way we've 4 pr esented it here is it's a big long equation, but 5 yo u would just change one variable. So you could 6 se t it up in a spreadsheet and instead of 93.6 7 pe rcent efficient for the motor, which is the 8 mi nimum efficiency motor, you would plug in 95 if 9 yo u had a 95 percent efficient motor, you just -- 10 MR. CAPPELLINO: At full load. 11 MS. WIDDER: At full load. And you just 12 pl ug in the full load efficiency of the motor if 13 yo u were going to sell it with a better motor and 14 th en get a different number that was better than 15 th e first case. And if you were going to sell 16 th at same pump with controls, now you would take 17 th at number that you had with the bare pump and 18 wh atever motor it's paired with and apply in this 19 ca se some factor, .78, that would give you a 20 re duced -- a better value representative of the 21 be tter performance you get with controls. So 22 af ter you rated your pump, all you do is some

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 96 1 ca lculations. And I'm working on a spreadsheet 2 th at I'm going to try and be able to send out to 3 th is group that you can just plug in pump 4 pe rformance and it will calculate all the rest, 5 an d so you'll be able to see how that works, and 6 th at would work for certification, too. 7 MR. CAPPELLINO: Okay. That's helping. 8 MS. WIDDER: Okay. 9 MR. BROOKMAN: Steve Rosenstock. 10 I'm coming back to you, Rob. 11 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Sure. Steve 12 Ro senstock, EEI. One other kind of big picture 13 is sue is -- I haven't really looked -- I'm 14 wo ndering, what percentage of pumps out there -- 15 be cause, remember this commercial, industrial, 16 ag ricultural wastewater type of pumps -- what 17 pe rcentage of pumps are constant flow basically, 18 th ere is no variability, it's either 1,000 gallons 19 pe r minute or they're off? 20 I'm just kind of curious about that just 21 be cause of the fact that if they're sized to be at 22 sp ecific, let's say, 90 percent of motor load,

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 97 1 co ntrols aren't really going to save you that 2 mu ch, and the PERs aren't -- you know, you've 3 sh own in your thing that you can actually have a 4 hi gher PER because with higher constant loads, and 5 I' m just thinking of certain processes or -- 6 es pecially for pumping, that there could be a 7 si gnificant percentage that are constant load. So 8 th at spills over into possible test procedures as 9 we ll. 10 MR. BROOKMAN: Let's hear from Mark. 11 MR. HANDZEL: Yeah. Mark Handzel from 12 Xy lem. Steve, you're exactly right, I mean, and 13 we 've tried to talk about that all along, that 14 th ere are applications out there that are constant 15 lo ad that would see no benefit from including a 16 dr ive, you know. And how many of them are out 17 th ere? Again, this is the thing, we sell the 18 pu mp, we don't necessarily always know how it's 19 ap plied, how it's used, how it's controlled. 20 So that's one of the things we'll have 21 to talk about, is that the PER really would have 22 to be related to variable load applications

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 98 1 be cause we would have owners unhappy with us if we 2 sa id you've got to put a drive on it, but it 3 do esn't save them anything. 4 MR. BROOKMAN: Steve. 5 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Steve Rosenstock, EEI. 6 Th ank you. Just for my benefit and hopefully for 7 ot hers, that would also help my decision making as 8 we ll in terms of metrics/test procedures. 9 MR. BROOKMAN: Meg, are you in the same 10 st ream? 11 MS. WALTNER: Let Alison. 12 MR. BROOKMAN: Alison. Go ahead, 13 Al ison. 14 MS. WILLIAMS: So I just wanted to 15 fo llow up on that a little bit. When we do our 16 an alysis, I mean, we might not get precise data, 17 bu t we will do an energy use analysis as part of 18 an LCC, and some people will have constant loads 19 an d some people will have variable loads, and so 20 yo u will be able to see that some percentage of 21 th e population may or may not benefit from this 22 be cause of what their load are, and so that will

### Capital Reporting Company Commercial/Industrial Pumps Working Group 03-27-2014

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 99 1 be taken into account in the analysis. 2 MR. BROOKMAN: Go ahead, Steve. 3 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Thank you, Alison. 4 St eve Rosenstock, EEI. I thank you very much, 5 Al ison. I think the reason I'm asking that is if 6 we 're being asked to make a decision today, we 7 do n't have that data, so that's why I'm a little 8 co ncerned. 9 MR. BROOKMAN: We're not going to make a 10 de cision today. 11 MS. WILLIAMS: So we need -- okay, as 12 Sa rah said, we need basically agreement on a 13 ge neral construct of a metric that we can plug 14 in to the analysis and show the results. And so it 15 co uld be that, you know, at some -- I mean, but 16 wh at we're also proposing to do is not -- none of 17 th ese levels would require controls; right? So 18 li ke the analysis isn't actually -- unless we had 19 a design option that was controls, the analysis 20 is n't going to show that some are burdened because 21 al l those levels are hydraulic efficiency levels. 22 And so if the group decides then for

### Capital Reporting Company Commercial/Industrial Pumps Working Group 03-27-2014

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 100 1 so me reason that they wanted to include a level of 2 ma ndating controls, then the analysis would be 3 ab le to differentiate, but, you know, that so far 4 ha sn't been on the table. 5 MR. BROOKMAN: In a minute, Alison, I'm 6 go ing to ask you or Sarah to describe what the 7 pi eces of a general construct of a metric that you 8 wo uld like to obtain agreement on today, what they 9 wo uld be, and I think I know what they are. 10 Mark, do you want to follow on? And 11 th en I'm going to Meg. 12 Meg, you're next. 13 MS. WALTNER: So I just have a follow-on 14 on that. One standard we haven't covered that I 15 un derstood from our earlier discussions is that 16 so metimes you might have a constant load 17 ap plication but an oversized pump and that that's 18 pr etty common, and in that case, a variable speed, 19 ev en though you're operating at a constant load, 20 wo uld provide benefit. Is that a common scenario 21 al so? 22 MR. BROOKMAN: Mark Handzel.

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 101 1 MR. HANDZEL: Mark Handzel from Xylem. 2 It 's a possible scenario absolutely because 3 ob viously we've talked before about when engineers 4 de sign systems, they put in a safety factor, and 5 so you could trim the impeller and get to where 6 th ey actually need to be once it's installed, or 7 yo u could put a drive in and it could be the 8 ad juster, too. So that is one other scenario, and 9 it does happen. 10 MR. BROOKMAN: Louis. 11 MR. STARR: This is Louis Starr with 12 NE EA. Would it be possible to regulate on PER but 13 al so report MEI on the label so if you are maybe 14 in a constant volume application or something such 15 th at you're really wanting to know that as a 16 de cision basis, but to meet regulations, you're 17 st ill doing the PER? Is that a possibility? 18 MR. BROOKMAN: An interesting idea. 19 So mething to consider. Okay. 20 Yes. 21 MS. KOHL: This is Betsy Kohl, DOE OGC. 22 I might as well answer that. If you look at --

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 102 1 th ere are labeling requirement provisions in the 2 st atute, and that would be something that we could 3 re quire. It wouldn't be a separate thing you 4 wo uld have to meet, but it would be something that 5 we could have be disclosed on a label. 6 MR. BROOKMAN: Lucas Adin. 7 MR. ADIN: And actually to get to a 8 qu estion from a little while back that I think was 9 yo urs, Louis, there was a question about how this 10 co uld be put into terms that might be more useful 11 pr ospectively to utilities or something like that, 12 en ergy use based on hours or something like that, 13 an nual operating costs. I mean, we can write 14 sp ecific standardized formulas for those things; 15 we do it for plenty of other products. So 16 re gardless of whether we use PER or some other 17 me tric for assessing compliance with a standard, 18 yo u could still have an annual energy use value 19 th at's based on a prescribed standardized number 20 of operating hours. 21 MR. BROOKMAN: Louis. 22 MR. STARR: So there are a couple of

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 103 1 th ings. One, where actually separately there is a 2 mo tor-driven label thing that we're working on 3 th at's kind of mainly to inform utility programs, 4 an d so the idea of a label. It would be nice if 5 it was tied into when you actually set the 6 st andard for a pump in this case, and then that -- 7 yo u know, the information that's feeding in. So 8 th at's something we're working on, and it's 9 di fferent from this. 10 But I guess the other aspect of these 11 th ings is that I think having multiple pieces of 12 in formation on there is helpful. 13 So the other thing I kind of am a little 14 bi t concerned about in this metric of the 15 co ntrols, motor, and pump, I haven't checked 16 ma thematically yet, but I was just thinking if I'm 17 a guy out there and I decide I've got a pump that 18 do esn't -- really not that great, but I can get a 19 be tter PER version by saying that maybe I have a 20 co ntrol system that's just a control valve on the 21 ou tlet of it and it will give me a little better 22 pe rformance than a constant volume, I'm wondering

### Capital Reporting Company Commercial/Industrial Pumps Working Group 03-27-2014

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 104 1 if there are some ways to game it so if you 2 ac tually have an MEI that's not so great but 3 yo u're able to put some other things in there that 4 do n't cost as much but don't really get the 5 pe rformance you need and give you a better PER, 6 bu t really it's just sort of gaming the system. 7 An d that was my only concern. I haven't actually 8 wo rked through to see what those possibilities 9 ar e, but it sounds like something you've probably 10 th ought about; right? 11 MS. WIDDER: We've been thinking about 12 it , and I think those types of loopholes or issues 13 ar e something that we can definitely continue to 14 di scuss. I think they'll exist for whatever metric 15 we come up with. And so I think back to Doug's 16 po int, if we can come up with a general framework 17 to day to start with and then shoot holes in it and 18 tr y to fix those, yeah. 19 MR. STARR: That would be one advantage 20 of having an MEI on there, because then you 21 wo uldn't have to back -- if there are loopholes 22 an d you know a little bit, you'll know that the

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 105 1 ME I is pretty important along with the PER, and 2 yo u know its application, it will help inform, I 3 th ink, the design community if there is more than 4 on e piece of information on there when it gets to 5 be so complex. 6 MS. WIDDER: Right. So one thing I did 7 wa nt to say -- well, two things I'm just going to 8 th row out there just as items for discussion, and 9 I thought about this a little bit, is for me MEI 10 wa sn't super intuitive before I started thinking 11 ab out pumps a lot either, and so I recognize PER 12 ma y not be super intuitive for everyone, but if 13 we 're talking about intuitive metrics and things 14 to include on a label, maybe like pump efficiency 15 at BEP, might be just easier for the layperson to 16 ge t at than MEI. So that was one thing, if we 17 wa nt to talk about labels. 18 And then the other thing was there is 19 st ill -- so this gets back to Charlie's point 20 ab out, what's the purpose of this metric? And the 21 pu rpose of this metric is to be able to 22 di fferentiate the performance of pumps especially

### Capital Reporting Company Commercial/Industrial Pumps Working Group 03-27-2014

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 106 1 wi th controls, so better designed systems, not 2 ju st better designed pumps. It's not going to 3 li mit the amount of information that pump 4 ma nufacturers are going to continue to give 5 de signers. I mean, they're not going to be happy 6 wi th an MEI and a PER or whatever, you know, 7 th ey're going to want a lot more information about 8 ho w their specific trimmed pump is performing at 9 di fferent flow and head points, and that's still 10 al l going to be available and all going to happen. 11 So those are just things to keep in mind. 12 MR. BROOKMAN: Chuck is next, and then 13 to Al. 14 MR. POWERS: As we were getting into 15 wi th Sarah, that was yesterday, about what we call 16 th e bull's-eye, the bull's-eye fit, you know. If 17 a customer knows that it's better efficiency with 18 a trim but we need to qualify the pump now because 19 of these rulings because of max diameter, you 20 kn ow, we have to look at that -- right? -- and 21 un derstand it. 22 Next is there was a study done in New

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 107 1 Yo rk, in New York State, because back in your 2 ch arts there, you did a nice job trying to show 3 sy stem head and all that. My view is -- and again 4 th is is just an observation -- what you're trying 5 to do there is good, the whole concept about the 6 pu mp drive and everything is no problem, but we 7 ha ve to understand these systems better because 8 th e study they did corresponded with you where you 9 sh owed a 2-speed was actually more efficient than 10 a VFD, and the reason they came up with the same 11 co nclusion was the fact that the constant speed 12 wa s -- actually, the 2-speed was best, the 13 co nstant speed was next, and then the VFD drive 14 wa s worst case. 15 Now, for his system, though, because he 16 go es from a static up to a high end, they'll put 17 it on a low speed at night just to bring the 18 sy stem up, get their heads up, get their flows up, 19 an d then during the day it draws down, but when he 20 ha s an overload because too many people take a 21 sh ower, let's say, they can turn on the high speed 22 an d boost that system up. So in his version, the

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 108 1 2- speed was actually the best. The VFD actually -- 2 th ey had some VFDs, it didn't help them; right? 3 It actually made it worse -- right? -- as far as 4 th eir overall efficiency. 5 But the system curves, understanding a 6 cu stomer's applications is critical because if you 7

-- my perception, and I would like to ask Doug a 8 li ttle bit, because he has a lot of pumps in the 9 fi eld -- if it's 100 percent capacity, chances of 10 it wanting to be a VFD is probably better because 11 yo u're very limited with one pump. How can you 12 re gulate the system, these system head curves? If 13 it 's a multi-pump system curve where they have 14 mu lti-pumps, they can shut two or three down, it 15 dr ops down to the head they need, versus even two. 16 Yo u don't need a VFD because you can regulate what 17 yo u need. 18 So I guess the point I'm trying to make 19 is if greater than -- and I would speculate -- 50 20 pe rcent of the pumps these guys ship for the Lot 21 11 -- which I think we need to come up with a new 22 na me, but that grouping we talked about yesterday,

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 109 1 is bare pumps -- we have no say in where they go 2 an d how they get applied. Right? You know what I 3 me an? I'm not trying to say this value and how 4 we 're going about it is not right, I think it's 5 gr eat. Right? But we have very little say on the 6 ap plications and telling a customer, "Oh, you need 7 to have a VFD." We don't even know the kind of 8 sy stem he's going to put it on, so how can we 9 re gulate it? 10 Now, publishing it, giving him data in 11 th e instruction manuals, "By the way, if you have 12 a VFD, you can do this," you know, we could add 13 th ose things to our documentation to help 14 cu stomers, but I need to speak up with Charlie, we 15 ha ve no way to regulate how we can tell them, "By 16 th e way, you can get better efficiency with 2- 17 sp eed, you can get better efficiency with VFDs," 18 an d that. You know what I mean? 19 MR. BROOKMAN: Lucas. 20 MR. ADIN: Well, just to clarify there. 21 An d I don't know if it's me that's thinking about 22 th is the wrong way or not, but we're not trying to

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 110 1 de sign this in a way that would force the pump 2 ma nufacturers to require the use of a VFD for a 3 pa rticular application. It's really -- the way 4 th is is supposed to work is that the variable in 5 te rms of what would be evaluated for the purposes 6 of setting the standard is the bare pump itself. 7 Ri ght? And so, yeah, I mean, a better motor or a 8 VF D in theory could be the means that you use to 9 ac hieve that standard, but it's really not the 10 in tent to force a whole portion of the market to 11 ha ve to require use of a VFD just to be able to 12 us e that pump. I mean, if that's the situation 13 we 're in, then maybe that's a critical factor in 14 de ciding whether that standard makes sense. 15 MR. BROOKMAN: Al Huber, and then I'm 16 go ing over here to Doug. 17 MR. HUBER: Go ahead and let Doug. 18 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Doug, go ahead. 19 MR. POTTS: One concern I have, as a 20 pu mp user -- and I would be curious for the 21 gr oup's feedback as to whether that's a valid 22 co ncern or not -- is I don't want to be limited in

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 111 1 ch oice in terms of what I can buy, so I don't want 2 to be in a situation where I have to buy a pump 3 wi th a VFD. And I know the regulation is not 4 re quiring that, but I wonder if there would be a 5 sc enario in which a pump manufacturer may say, 6 "Y ou know what, the investment cost to upgrade our 7 pu mp efficiency is so great that let's not try to 8 me et the pump efficiency, let's just sell our 9 pu mps with VFDs only, and then we'll meet the 10 cr iteria that way," and then that takes away 11 ch oice from us. 12 We typically do not buy pumps and VFDs 13 to gether because they're engineered systems, and a 14 ty pical pump station will have -- well, say a 15 tr eatment plant, for example. The high-service 16 pu mps, the high-service pump station would usually 17 ha ve a minimum of three, usually three to five 18 hi gh-service pumps. We would never have VFDs on 19 al l those pumps. We would have VFDs on maybe a 20 ma ximum of two of those pumps. And we like to 21 ha ve control over the VFD manufacturers. Certain 22 VF Ds, we want the same ones that we use everywhere

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 112 1 in that system because we like our rep or because 2 we like that technology, things like that. 3 So I want to make sure that we don't 4 ha ve the regulation that the industry is just 5 go ing to say, "Well, let's just sell everything 6 wi th VFDs now," and then that takes away choice 7 fr om us. 8 MR. BROOKMAN: Lucas. 9 MR. ADIN: So, Doug, I think your 10 co mment gets exactly to the point I made 11 pr eviously, which is that if when we analyze these 12 di fferent potential standard levels, we look at 13 on e in particular and the pump manufacturers say, 14 we ll, the only way that we can comply with that is 15 to do what you just said, is to use a VFD, 16 ef fectively what that means is that you're 17 el iminating a product from the market to some 18 po tentially significant extent, and that's a 19 fa ctor that's used in determining whether that 20 pa rticular standard level makes sense, whether 21 it 's economically feasible, and so that is a 22 fa ctor that has to be considered, and that's

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 113 1 so mething we need to know when we look at each of 2 th ese. The pump guys say, "Well, we just couldn't 3 su pply that pump to the market anymore without a 4 VF D," then that's a critical deciding point. And 5 we wouldn't want to eliminate a product from the 6 ma rket. 7 MR. BROOKMAN: Let me note in a little 8 bi t we're going to take a break. 9 Al Huber. 10 MR. HUBER: I have basically two things. 11 On e thing, I think to allay your fears, Doug, the 12 co st of VFDs are so high, I don't think anybody is 13 go ing to try to justify their pump with a VFD to 14 ma ke up that difference. Okay? I think that's 15 nu mber one. Or the motor either. Because there 16 is a fairly sizeable delta between the EPACT and 17 pr emium efficiency, a minimum of 10 to 15 percent. 18 An d in the marketplace today, you're not going to 19 su rvive being 10 to 15 percent high, it's just not 20 go ing to happen. So I don't really think that's 21 an issue. 22 But one of the things that I would like

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 114 1 to do and I think our caucus would like to do, 2 be fore we break, we would like for you to tell us 3 wh at it is you want from us, or what is it you 4 wa nt from this group, before we break, exactly for 5 yo u to be able to do what you want to do? And 6 th en we'll go away and see what questions we have 7 ab out those. 8 MS. WIDDER: Okay. So I think that was 9 fo r us. 10 MR. BROOKMAN: Yes, I think that is for 11 yo u. 12 Let's hear from Steve. He's been 13 pa tient. I think I know about half of them, but 14 ke ep going, Steve. 15 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Steve Rosenstock, EEI. 16 To follow up with what Mr. Powers was saying, the 17 wa y the standards are, each pump is sold 18 in dividually. The application gets into the 19 an alysis, the energy use analysis, and the life20 cy cle cost savings, but in terms of the actual 21 st andard, each pump, or pump and motor, pump and 22 mo tor control, is sold as an individual unit even

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 115 1 if it's being used with nine other pumps for an 2 ap plication, it doesn't matter. The standard is 3 ju st for that pump period, just for that pump and 4 mo tor, just for that pump and motor control, as if 5 it was just purely a standalone unit. 6 MS. WIDDER: Yeah. 7 MR. ROSENSTOCK: That's the way all the 8 ot her standards are set. 9 MR. POWERS: And, Steve, I agree with 10 yo u. I guess the point I'm trying to make, I think 11 Sa rah is trying to do a good job of saying it 12 is n't just about a pump. How does the system 13 cu rve look and what impacts can that have and what 14 va riables? And if we do apply the 25 percent, how 15 go od would that be? I see what she's trying -- 16 th e variables, and then she even played with the 17 af finity laws a little bit, and that's all good 18 st uff, but there are also pumps, like I was trying 19 to say, the bull's-eye fit, and if we go max 20 wh eel, believe me, that stuff last night, I put it 21 to a team of 10 engineers and they were 22 ca lculating till midnight going through all the

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 116 1 di fferent variations, and I hate to say it, there 2 we re a series of great pumps that looks like 3 th ey're going to get eliminated because of their 4 bu ll's-eye fit further down in the mid-trim, and 5 th at's -- it is what it is, so, so be it, you 6 kn ow. And that's okay. 7 You know, we're trying to understand 8 yo ur stuff so we have a better understanding of 9 th e impact. I guess if it impacts us, we're not -- 10 yo u know, since Darwin wrote the rules, everybody, 11 yo u know -- if there's a bull's-eye fit, if 12 th ere's a bull's-eye fit for us, there's a bull's13 ey e fit pump for Charlie, and probably for Al, 14 it 's going to affect all of us, but there is a 15 pe rcentage of those that could be impacted. You 16 kn ow what I mean. 17 MS. WIDDER: Yeah. 18 MR. POWERS: We're just trying to 19 un derstand the impact. 20 MS. WIDDER: Right. 21 MR. ADIN: I just want to see if I can 22 br ing a little clarity to the issue at hand here.

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 117 1 I think it's getting to the question that Al asked 2 pr eviously, but what is it that we need to have 3 an swered today so we can do what we need to do? 4 An d I think part of the issue is that some of the 5 po tential impacts on the market that we've been 6 ta lking about are related to the standard, the 7 ul timate standard, level that we set. So the 8 st andard level that is set will have some impact 9 on the market, and from what we've heard, the 10 me tric itself might have some impact on the market 11 as far as the choices that are made by consumers. 12 I think what we need to do to be able to 13 mo ve forward, since we haven't talked about what 14 st andard level we might set, we can't speculate 15 ab out the impact on the market in specific terms 16 on that. We need to know, what does the metric 17 al one have the potential to do? Like what are the 18 co ncerns on that? So that we can pick one and then 19 st art doing real analysis and start looking at 20 so me standard levels and talk in more real terms 21 ab out economic impacts and all that. 22 MR. BROOKMAN: And Sarah, I just

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 118 1 co nsulted with her briefly, she thought that she 2 wo uld be able to identify what Alison described, 3 an d I'm sure Alison knows also, the general 4 co nstruct of a metric, what those elements would 5 be . 6 MS. WIDDER: Right. So it's back to -- 7 MR. BROOKMAN: So this is to answer your 8 qu estion, Al. 9 MS. WIDDER: Mm-hmm. So -- 10 MR. HUBER: What I need is a list of 11 th ings you need to know today. 12 MR. BROOKMAN: Yeah. 13 MS. WIDDER: Okay. So here is -- 14 MR. HUBER: And I'm going to write them 15 do wn and then we're going to go caucus. 16 MS. WIDDER: Right. So here is our 17 li st, and I'll start with none of this needs to be 18 se t in stone, we don't need to vote on this, we 19 ju st need to determine that we're all okay moving 20 fo rward with this general assumption right now. 21 We can always change it. But in general what we 22 wa nt to decide is --

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 119 1 MR. BROOKMAN: It's slide Number 6. 2 MS. WIDDER: Yep, Slide Number 6. Here 3 we are. I changed it a little bit, I made a 4 de nominator. But are we generally okay with this 5 ge neral construct of a metric, so power, or we 6 co uld -- instead of the P is on top, it could be 7 in stead pump efficiency and pump hydraulic power, 8 bu t some representation of pump performance at 9 fo ur load points. And then are we okay to account 10 fo r motor losses? Are you guys okay with that, 11 th e general way we approach that for now? The 12 lo ad control factor as a way for accounting -- 13 Oh, Alison. 14 MS. WILLIAMS: So, I just -- we don't 15 ac tually need to determine how to account for 16 mo tor losses and control losses today, not 17 ne cessary. 18 MS. WIDDER: Okay, you want to -- let's 19 do -- okay, let's do these things, three, these. 20 So let's do these three. 21 MS. WILLIAMS: If you can, fantastic. 22 MS. WIDDER: How about this?

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 120 1 MS. WILLIAMS: We can prioritize things. 2 MS. WIDDER: How about this? That's 3 wh at we need? Okay. So forget the motor and 4 co ntrols thing, we'll just stick with pump 5 pe rformance, and we actually don't even need the 6 de nominator, we can delete that. 7 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Fix the whole thing. 8 MS. WIDDER: Yep, I'm going to fix it. 9 So all we need is the load points -- 10 11 MR. HUBER: Load points? 12 MS. WIDDER: Yep. That's -- the load 13 po ints is, you know -- there we go. 14 UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: We got it. 15 We got it. 16 MS. WIDDER: Yep, load points and 17 we ighting. And is this general construct okay? 18 I' m going to delete the -- 19 MR. BROOKMAN: And there are some other 20 th ings so that that -- oh, actually we don't need 21 th ose now either. 22 MS. WIDDER: No. At a bare minimum,

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 121 1 th is is what we want. 2 MS. WILLIAMS: Yeah, and so -- 3 MR. HUBER: That's what you want from 4 us . 5 MS. WIDDER: That's it today. 6 MS. WILLIAMS: So this is -- I just want 7 to clarify that; right? So we can -- Dan and I 8 ca n do analysis with this information. We will 9 ma ke some assumptions about how to size the motor 10 an d stuff like that, but it shouldn't affect like 11 ba sically the ranking of results and that type of 12 th ing. So eventually we need to agree on more 13 de tails, but these are the major things that will 14 al low our analysis to essentially be relatively 15 co rrect and then we can make adjustments to the 16 me tric later. So -- 17 MR. BROOKMAN: So that was Alison there. 18 MS. WILLIAMS: So we will -- Dan and I 19 wi ll have to make assumptions about the motor, 20 li ke motor sizing and stuff to do the analysis, 21 bu t it will be the same for everything, and so it 22 sh ouldn't be like a -- it shouldn't really impact

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 122 1 th e analysis basically. 2 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. So let's take a 3 br eak. It's now 5 minutes after 10:00. Al, I'm 4 gu essing that this might take you more than -- no? 5 Ok ay. Then 15 minutes. 6 MR. HUBER: I thought it was going to be 7 a long list. 8 MR. BROOKMAN: 10:20. We'll resume at 9 10 :20. 10 (Break.) 11 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Let's resume. 12 Wh en we went to break, the manufacturers caucus 13 wa s going to caucus. 14 Al Huber. 15 MR. HUBER: It took a little longer than 16 I suspected, but -- 17 MR. BROOKMAN: That's okay. 18 MR. HUBER: What the pump manufacturers 19 wo uld like to see, quite frankly, is a two-tiered 20 ap proach, or two -- however you want to do it with 21 tw o different regulations or -- I mean, two 22 di fferent measurements --

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 123 1 UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: Standards. 2 MR. HUBER: -- standards or a standard 3 an d a label, but we would really like to see us 4 st ay with an MEI, or a Minimum Efficiency Index, 5 or whatever you want to call it at 75, 100, and 6 11 0. That's what we really believe is the right 7 wa y to go. 8 We also, if we want another index, we 9 th ink it should be EEI and probably shouldn't be 10 an ything that's been proposed so far and probably 11 sh ould be 25, 50, 75, and 100, and that would take 12 in to consideration the system. And we think that 13 is the best way to do that. 14 Now, I heard -- and she's not in here 15 un fortunately -- but I heard Betsy say once you 16 co uldn't do that, then 15 minutes later I heard 17 he r say you could. So there seems to be a lot of 18 co nfusion on what we can and cannot do as regards 19 to how many different metrics we can have or 20 me asurements or indexes or however you want to put 21 it . 22 So that's what the manufacturers believe

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 124 1 is the best way to go. Now, that does align with 2 Eu rope, and one reason we're doing that is many of 3 us produce pumps, the same pumps, in Europe, and 4 it would certainly be easier on us, and we think 5 it will accomplish what we're trying to accomplish 6 he re, and that is give a metric for the pump only, 7 ba re pump only, and a metric for the pump, motor, 8 an d control. And that's what we think, and that's 9 th e way we feel about it. So we're open to 10 di scussion, so -- 11 MR. BROOKMAN: Did you all come to a 12 po int of agreement on weighting, equal weighting, 13 ve rsus -- 14 MR. HUBER: If you're talking about an 15 ME I, we think it ought to be a third, a third, and 16 a third. If it's 75, 100, and 110, which is the 17 sa me thing the Europeans are doing basically in 18 an other fashion by saying if you don't meet one of 19 th e points, your pump is out. So if you weight 20 th em all a third, a third, a third, it's the same 21 th ing, the result is the same. 22 MR. BROOKMAN: That's equal weighting.

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 125 1 MR. HUBER: That's equal weighting, 2 ye ah. You know, on the VFD, I don't think we're 3 re ally -- I think equal weighting on the VFD is 4 fi ne, too, because you don't know what the system 5 is till you get there anyway. The truth of the 6 ma tter is even if you did research on like let's 7 sa y an HVAC system and you decide it runs this 8 pe rcentage this, but if you get out in the field, 9 yo u're going to find something different. 10 So you might as well just make it all 11 ev en and then everybody is judged the same anyway, 12 so it doesn't really matter. It doesn't help you 13 wh en you're trying to decide your savings, that's 14 fo r sure. I mean, I understand that, but since 15 th ere are so many different types of systems out 16 th ere, and even the ones that are the same type of 17 sy stem may not have the same weighting or the 18 sy stem may not operate the same, in quite the same 19 wa y, it may be off, trying to go out here and 20 id entify those is extremely difficult if not 21 im possible. 22 So that's why we think equal weighting

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 126 1 is probably the best way to go. So we're all for 2 eq ual weighting. 3 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Alison, do you 4 ha ve questions or comments or -- 5 MS. WILLIAMS: I will probably let DOE 6 do most of the talking, but can we talk a little 7 bi t about sort of what has changed from last 8 me eting when it seemed like maybe you guys were 9 so rt of understanding and being on board with this 10 an d -- I mean, I know we've heard this before, but 11 it seemed like from talking to Greg and stuff that 12 th is was (laughing) -- and even most of you guys 13 at the last meeting seemed sort of more or less 14 ok ay and didn't have that many questions. So I'm 15 ju st wondering like what has changed, and I don't 16 kn ow. 17 MR. HUBER: I think the complexity of 18 wh at you're doing here is one thing. The other 19 th ing is our people have had time to think about 20 it . And for one thing, I mean, if we decide to do 21 th is, we've all got to carry this all back to our 22 en gineering departments and say, "You've got to do

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 127 1 an analysis on this to see what this is going to 2 do to us or not do to us and what's going to 3 ha ppen." I mean, we weren't going to accept it 4 an yway today, so -- 5 MS. WILLIAMS: Oh, yeah, understood, and 6

-- 7 MR. HUBER: But we really don't 8 un derstand why that you're being insistent that we 9 do it this way rather than the way that it's 10 al ready out there. 11 MR. BROOKMAN: Greg Towsley. 12 MR. TOWSLEY: Greg Towsley, Grundfos. I 13 th ink more simply is that we heard this morning 14 th at there is a possibility of having two metrics 15 th at -- 16 MS. WILLIAMS: Oh, good, Betsy is here. 17 (Laughter.) 18 MS. KOHL: Sorry. 19 MR. BROOKMAN: Let's -- let's -- 20 MR. POWERS: But if I may -- Alison, if 21 I may before Betsy speaks, I think, you know, you 22 sa y we had some agreement last meeting. We're

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 128 1 st ill trying to understand the file documents. 2 Th is is evolving; right? So it was like last time 3 yo u kind of get a nudge, you look, you know, 4 wh atever. 5 MR. BROOKMAN: Is your microphone on? 6 MR. POWERS: Yes. Yes, it is. 7 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Thank you. 8 MR. POWERS: This is Chuck Powers. You 9 kn ow, so it's a moving target; right? I mean, 10 la st time someone could say we had these pumps 11 in volved, we didn't have these other pumps 12 in volved, and yesterday we voted what the final 13 wa s. So, I mean, it's evolving. And this is now 14 ge tting a lot more detailed and you guys are doing 15 a really good job of defining it and qualifying, 16 ge tting calculations, but even there, there are a 17 lo t of changes right on the screen, you know, 18 to day with variations. Right? So -- 19 MS. WILLIAMS: Yeah. I mean, I 20 th ink, you know, we understand that it's an 21 ev olving process, and that's why I wanted to ask 22 wh at has kind of changed, but I think if Betsy can

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 129 1 sp eak to the dual metric again, that would be 2 go od. (Laughing.) 3 MS. KOHL: What's the question? I mean, 4 we 've trod this ground, but -- 5 MR. HUBER: Al Huber. We would like to 6 se e -- and what we explained to the group before 7 yo u got back in, Betsy, is that we would like to 8 se e a metric on the bare pump, an MEI, 75, 100, 9 11 0, and a metric on the system or a rating on the 10 sy stem as a separate rating. First of all, we 11 th ink it makes more sense. I mean, we would like 12 to see -- you certainly would judge the VFD better 13 if you had 25, 50, 75, 100 than what you're trying 14 to do up here because you're trying to combine 15 th em. And we thought we heard from you that that 16 wa s a possibility, that we could have two separate 17 ra tings or not -- or however you want to call it, 18 or a rating and a label, or however you would have 19 to construct it, but we honestly believe that's 20 th e best route to go. 21 MS. KOHL: So -- this is Betsy Kohl -- 22 th e label is a different issue. The label -- we

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 130 1 ha ve a standard that we would develop in this 2 gr oup. The label can -- and the statutory cite is 3 42 U.S.C. 6315 -- contain other useful measures of 4 en ergy consumption, annual energy cost. Right? 5 So MEI could be one of those. But it would just 6 be information that you put out, it wouldn't be a 7 se parate standard that you would have to meet. 8 So , I mean, and the way we understood that -- for 9 th e bare pump class, you would have your MEI, but 10 yo ur ultimate standard would be an EEI as it would 11 be for all of your -- whether you have a motor or 12 a motor and controls, you would just have some 13 st andard value for the motor and control 14 ef ficiency, so it would all be EEI. That's why we 15 ki nd of understood that there wouldn't be an 16 is sue. I mean, I don't know why there would 17 ne cessarily be a problem with that because you 18 kn ow what the MEI is. 19 MR. BROOKMAN: Greg Case. 20 MR. CASE: I guess our issue was when we 21 st arted to look at the MEI portion of this, having 22 th e values different than the values that we had

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 131 1 in other standards that we're trying to comply to 2 an d not having any weight on where we want the 3 pu mp to actually operate, which is the best -- or 4 th e preferred operating range, which is 75 to 5 ab out 110 -- 6 MR. HANDZEL: We want to encourage 7 op erating there. 8 MR. CASE: -- we want to encourage to 9 op erate in there. If we're using what we were 10 ta lking about earlier -- and we talked about 11 po ssibly being able to do this with weighting 12 fa ctors and things like that also, but trying to 13 en courage someone to run the pump and give them 14 mo re weight for their efficiencies at the best 15 ef ficiencies point was kind of our focus there. 16 So the MEI makes you meet all three points, it 17 ma kes sure that you have a broad efficiency range 18 on your pump curve, and it kind of -- it makes 19 su re that the pump is best at its BEP point. 20 The EEI, as constructed in the European 21 do cuments, is the extended product operating 22 sa vings, and we certainly don't want to lose that

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 132 1 po rtion of this. We think that's where you're 2 ac tually going to save your energy. As we saw 3 ye sterday, the values were fairly small for pump 4 sa vings alone. And as Sarah had shown us earlier, 5 if you take that 25 percent out, that really 6 ch anges the amount of the PER value, the 25 7 pe rcent weighting point did a -- or the 25 percent 8 op erating point had a large effect on how we would 9 di fferentiate a PER or how much that changes with 10 a VFD versus a constant speed pump. 11 So I don't know if I just confused the 12 is sue or I made it any better, but the MEI 13 fo cusing just on the pump and giving us a clear 14 va lue to shoot for just on the pump, and we can 15 sa y that's part of this PER up there, but most of 16 ou r problem, I believe, was just on the weighting 17 of these PER values. 18 MR. POWERS: This is Chuck, with 19 Fl owserve, too, to help, if I can. When you go, 20 le t's say, to the left of 75 percent, Betsy, guys 21 li ke Doug and his companies, when they specify 22 th ings, yes, they specify efficiencies and they

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 133 1 sp ecify operating ranges, and most of them, most 2 of the time that I see -- and there are others -- 3 yo u'll see 70 to 110, you'll see some push 120, 4 so me will push 50, that they operate, but most of 5 th e manufacturers, consultants, and all have a 6 pr eferred operating range right now. 7 When you go to the left of that, there 8 ar e things that can be done, but there are other 9 fa ctors that start to evolve. For example, we 10 ha ve this thing called NPSH, okay, the suction 11 si de of the pump, so to speak, and there is what 12 th ey call the 3 percent break-off, which really 13 wh at happens is in order to make head out of the 14 pu mp, it gets to a point where the suction -- and 15 I' m using simple terms -- you start to drop off in 16 he ad because you're having losses on the suction 17 si de, and what ends up happening is most people 18 th ink the NPSH curve just goes from BEP to the 19 ri ght. Well, actually, in an impeller rate, it 20 ca n go all the way back to shutoff, so to speak, 21 bu t when you get back further on the curve, it can 22 ge t pretty radical and come up quite quickly to

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 134 1 wh ere you actually will run out of NPSH for the 2 pu mp, and it could be at the 50 percent point, at 3 th e 60, it just depends on the type of hydraulic 4 an d specific speed, these other factors we look at 5 wh en we design pumps; right? 6 So the European arena, when they looked 7 at that, they -- and I'm sitting in front because 8 ev ery time we talk, I open up that page and I try 9 to understand how they were divesting and stuff, 10 an d I think that's where Greg is coming from, 11 we 're trying to say we want customers, through the 12 en gineering consultants, to look at products where 13 th ey should operate, which is what we're all 14 tr ying to do, because they're operating them 15 po orly -- right? -- and the systems they get into 16 an d all that kind of stuff. 17 So the first idea is say, "Look, try to 18 op erate your pump in this preferred range." 19 An ything you attach to it, try to make sure it's 20 co mfortable with that range, whether it's a VFD, a 21 2- speed motor, and all the neat stuff that Sarah 22 sa id. And by the way, if you have a system curve,

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 135 1 wi ll that comply? In other words, we're going to 2 tr y to educate them and say, "Look, the sweeter 3 yo u get, the better things will be for everybody." 4 Ri ght? So that's why I think what Al was trying 5 to say and all of us, you know, is to that point. 6 MR. BROOKMAN: Al Huber. 7 MR. HUBER: One of the concerns that our 8 gr oup had when we were out discussing this is that 9 th e way we have constructed this formula, we give 10 an equal weight to a 50 percent point where we do 11 no t even design for with the BEP or 75 or 110, and 12 th ere was some real concern as, why would we give 13 we ight to a point that is really out on the 14 ex treme that we don't even recommend you operate 15 th ere? So that's really one of our concerns. And 16 I understand why -- I thought I understood before 17 to day why we did that, I mean, why you did that, 18 be cause I thought you were being forced to, but if 19 yo u're not being forced to, we really think 20 sp litting the two makes more sense because we're 21 go ing to talk about the VFD operating from 100 to 22 25 , and that's where it's going to operate, and

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 136 1 we 're talking about just a constant speed pump 2 op erating between 75 and 110 where it's going to - 3 - it should operate or someone should operate it. 4 So that was our thought on this, and if 5 we misled you last time, we apologize, but, you 6 kn ow, this is evolving, and as we take a stronger 7 lo ok at these things, we see the possible 8 pi tfalls. 9 MR. BROOKMAN: I think Lucas Adin. 10 MR. ADIN: Well, I think conceptually 11 pa rt of the struggle that we're having with this - 12 - and, I mean, I think we understand the position 13 th at you're taking on this, from my point anyway, 14 my position, I think I understand. So some of 15 th is is maybe about weighting points or weighting 16 fa ctors or which load points we're looking at. We 17 ca n still discuss all of that, I mean, that's 18 st ill on the table; there are issues with those 19 an d we can debate about them. But I think when it 20 co mes to the broader issue of metric, the issue or 21 th e concern that we have is -- and maybe it's a 22 qu estion of our conceptual understanding of the

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 137 1 ma rket and applications, but there are enough 2 si tuations where there are choices being made 3 be tween a throttle -- a constant speed pump and a 4 th rottled system and a variable speed pump, which 5 we 've already defined as both being a pump under 6 th e context of this rulemaking, and so it's 7 be neficial to have a common way to compare those 8 tw o things, and it sounds like this removes that 9 di rect comparison ability. And so that really I 10 th ink is the most significant concern from our 11 st andpoint, because at the end of the day, I mean, 12 we talk bare pump, pump plus motor, pump plus -- 13 bu t, I mean, realistically it's pump plus motor 14 an d pump plus motor plus some kind of variable 15 sp eed drive because these are all operated with a 16 mo tor, so -- 17 MR. BROOKMAN: So Chuck Powers. 18 MR. POWERS: So just from my practical 19 se nse, we've seen in 38 years most customers, if 20 th ey're going to use a VFD, they're going to have 21 a constant start point at BEP. They're going to 22 us e a VFD and they're going to come down on the

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 138 1 VF D speed curve, and it's not normally linear, it 2 co mes down a little bit, but it doesn't go back to 3 25 percent; right? In other words, it works down. 4 It may come to 25 percent speed, but they want to 5 tr y to keep it as close to BEP as possible. It's 6 no t scientifically practical because the linear 7 cu rve on a VFD versus the hydraulic, there will be 8 so me separation with the lower speed you get; 9 ri ght? 10 Number two, if I can do this right, if 11 yo u have 75, 100, and 110, and the designer sits 12 th ere and looks at that, which is what we're 13 tr ying to do here, that's efficiency for these 14 gu ys, that curve would look like this; right? 15 Th ere's a peak up here at 100 percent. When you 16 ad d another point here and you equally load factor 17 th at, really what the designer is going to do, 18 he 's going to do this to the efficiency curve. 19 Ri ght? It won't be as peaking, it's going to have 20 to -- because he's got to spread out and get a 21 ch ange, it gets down to, is it 7 vane impeller? 22 th e eye area, recirculation, a lot of factors. So

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 139 1 wh en you're back there at 25 percent or 50 percent 2 lo ad, you've got to keep the efficiency to 3 ma intain the overall because we equally weighted 4 ho w we play it. So what's going to happen is 5 yo u're going to, to a certain degree, reduce the 6 ef ficiency at where you want it to be -- right? -- 7 so to speak. 8 So you'll still maintain overall, and 9 so me of the factors Sarah showed is good, you 10 ba lance it all and you have an overall, but you're 11 es sentially going to lose efficiency at BEP a 12 li ttle bit if you balance it. It's on certain 13 hy draulics; right? 14 And by the way, without getting into a 15 sp ecific speed, you know, N suction versus 16 ve rticals, they all have their variabilities; 17 ri ght? 18 MR. BROOKMAN: Lucas. 19 MR. ADIN: So just a quick clarifying 20 qu estion for my benefit. Is that getting at the 21 po int about having three separate rating points? 22 MR. POWERS: Yeah. The first one was

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 140 1 wh at Sarah showed, which was loading. She calls 2 it the load points. 3 MR. ADIN: Right. Okay. 4 MR. BROOKMAN: What about Lucas' 5 qu estion about comparability? I didn't think your 6 co mments addressed that, Chuck. 7 I'll go to Charlie next. 8 MR. CAPPELLINO: So a question for DOE. 9 So would it be possible to have a scheme where you 10 re gulate based on MEI that promotes efficiency of 11 th e pumping equipment and then have a labeling 12 sc heme that allows comparability across the 13 di fferent units so that you have kind of a 14 co mbination of both so the labeling scheme 15 pr omotes the ability to compare and provides 16 in formation to the consumer, which will drive 17 en ergy savings, because you have a more educated 18 co nsumer, you can design incentive programs around 19 a labeling scheme and get energy savings out of a 20 la beling scheme and at the same time have a 21 re gulated approach to MEI and drive pump 22 ef ficiency improvements and get savings from both

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 141 1 an d quantify both of those savings and get credit 2 fo r those in the calculation of energy savings? 3 MR. ADIN: So generally speaking, I 4 th ink it's possible to do it that way. I think 5 we 're trying to consider what makes sense in both 6 di mensions, so it's both determining what complies 7 wi th a standard and what single metric 8 co mmunicates the best information to the consumer. 9 An d this is where we have arrived based upon both 10 th ose considerations. 11 MR. CAPPELLINO: The reason I bring it 12 up is because you could solve the problem of how 13 yo u look at the different flow points and the 14 di fferent ratings and weightings because you could 15 ha ve a different one for the MEI as you do for the 16 la beling scheme, so you could separate those two. 17 MR. ADIN: So I guess my question in 18 re sponse to that is that the feeling is that that 19 wo uld be less -- that would provide better 20 in formation to the consumer, like it would be less 21 co nfusing than doing it this way? Would it be 22 mo re representative?

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 142 1 MR. CAPPELLINO: I think it has the 2 po tential to do so. I guess I would like to have 3 mo re dialogue and discussion around it. 4 MS. WILLIAMS: Can I just ask a 5 qu estion? 6 MR. BROOKMAN: Alison, please. 7 MS. WILLIAMS: Okay. So in the EU and 8 in previous DOE studies, they have determined that 9 th ey didn't think a label would be very effective 10 fo r pumps because what we're talking about is not 11 ty pically, you know, a commodity-driven, like off12 th e-shelf product, and that therefore the benefit 13 of setting a standard instead of a label is that, 14 yo u know, it's at -- obviously for you guys it's a 15 bu rden, but we're getting savings without the 16 cu stomer having to choose. And so I'm curious if 17 yo u guys have comment about why you think a label 18 wo uld be effective when other people think it 19 wo uldn't be. 20 MR. HUBER: Yeah. I think at this 21 po int, we would like to caucus again for a few 22 mo ments.

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 143 1 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. 2 MR. HUBER: But before we do, we really 3 wa nt to try to help you find a way to do this that 4 ma kes sense that our people can feel comfortable 5 wi th. There are a lot of things we've got to 6 co nsider. I know that she said before we left you 7 mi ght show the BEP. Well, if the BEP is the 8 me asurement and we already do that, and if it's 9 th e measurement and it's the only measurement, and 10 it 's what's shown, then you're going to have 11 pe ople out here designing pumps that only do this, 12 an d everywhere else you operate, it's a piece of 13 ga rbage, and you don't want that and we don't want 14 th at, it's not good for anybody. And that's not - 15 - let me say this, when we design a pump, we're 16 de signing it within that operating range, that 75 17 to 110. That's what we all design for. That's 18 wh y that's kind of -- and it's the same designers 19 as there are here, we all can do both, and we 20 co mmunicate well together. 21 22 But that's the issue we have. We want

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 144 1 to help you do this, honestly, and we want to keep 2 in -- and I want to say this, we want to keep what 3 we call extended product, which you're calling 4 PE R. We need to keep this in here because that's 5 wh ere the savings are, but we've got to find a way 6 to get there that makes sense, and I want to talk 7 to my caucus a little bit about trying to go back 8 an d finding a way to help do this is it's 9 po ssible. 10 MR. BROOKMAN: Sarah has a few things to 11 sa y. 12 MS. WIDDER: And I think the thing that 13 I would suggest or just to consider regarding how 14 ME I and this construct of PER could fit together, 15 I' m revising this equation to have pump efficiency 16 in it so that that's more clear. Regarding the 17 lo ad points, we could eliminate from PER this 50 18 pe rcent load point. It could just be 75, 100, and 19 11 0 percent of BEP consistent with MEI, and they 20 co uld be equally weighted or something other than 21 th at. So we did some calculations about that and 22 th e negative thing about doing that is it doesn't

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 145 1 re present the benefit of controls that well. 2 MR. HUBER: That's correct. We 3 un derstand. 4 MS. WIDDER: Right. And so I think 5 fu ndamentally the issue is back to the one Alison 6 ra ised, is if we capture the benefit of controls 7 in something other than the standard in some 8 la bel, is anybody going to do anything with it? 9 Is it really going to have an impact? Which is 10 wh y we wanted to try and capture it in the metric 11 th at everybody is using. It's not two numbers, 12 it 's one number, it's clearer, it's simpler. You 13 kn ow, it will take a while for people to catch on 14 to what it means, but then there is only one, you 15 do n't have to compare two things, and what if this 16 on e has a higher MEI but a lower PER, what does 17 th at mean? And we could less heavily weight the 18 50 percent point also, but similarly that will not 19 be nefit controls, you won't get as much bang for 20 yo ur buck from a control. So those are just some 21 th ings to consider in your caucus. It's not -- 22 it 's just things to think about.

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 146 1 MR. BROOKMAN: Go ahead, Lucas. 2 And Gary is also in the queue. 3 MR. ADIN: So this is just sort of in 4 ad dition to Sarah's comment just now, but, I mean, 5 th ere are a few parts of this that are still 6 po tentially up for discussion. I mean, what units 7 is it expressed in? I mean, horsepower? We've 8 he ard that doesn't really make a whole lot of 9 se nse to do it that way, and I completely 10 un derstand why there are concerns about that. Is 11 th ere a denominator? We can still talk about 12 th ose things. I think really what we're concerned 13 ab out is just basic structure and the use of a 14 co mmon metric between the two types of 15 co nfigurations. 16 MR. BROOKMAN: Let's let Gary go. He's 17 be en patient. 18 MR. HUBER: All right. Go ahead. 19 MR. BROOKMAN: Gary. 20 MR. FERNSTROM: From the beginning, 21 ta lking to you folks, we agreed that there was a 22 lo t of benefit associated with controls, and from

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 147 1 th e utility incentive point of view, we would like 2 to be able to recognize that. So it's important 3 th at we come up with some metric that values it. 4 An d I think it's also important that we consider 5 th e 50 percent load point because it emphasizes 6 th e value of controls. 7 MR. BROOKMAN: Joanna, follow on. 8 MS. MAUER: I just wanted to add that at 9 a high level I think we all want to -- we want 10 en ergy savings in the field, and so what I think 11 is important with the metric and the weighting is 12 th at we try to capture how pumps are actually 13 op erating in the field. We all prefer that pumps 14 op erate close to BEP, but what we also know and 15 we 've heard from you guys is that that rarely 16 ha ppens, and pumps are often significantly 17 ov ersized. And I'm not sure I understand how only 18 ha ving the rating capture 75, 100, and 110 19 en courages people to operate the pump there. So I 20 th ink what we want to do is capture where pumps 21 ar e operating even if they're not operating where 22 th ey should be operating.

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 148 1 MR. BROOKMAN: Al Huber. 2 MR. HUBER: I think what we're trying to 3 ex plain to you is that -- and I think Chuck did a 4 go od job of it -- and that is, if you put the 50 5 pe rcent in there and somebody is redesigning, 6 th ey're going to do exactly what he said, and when 7 yo u do something to affect the suction side of a 8 pu mp, it always -- not always, but it generally 9 wi ll lower efficiency at the peak. Let me finish. 10 Wh en we do that, then the peak is going to go 11 do wn, and you're going to hurt the entire 12 in dustry, not just the pump industry, but you're 13 go ing to hurt all the users, and the way you're 14 go ing to do that is that with a VFD -- and he is 15 co rrect -- what you're trying to do with a -- 16 yo u're trying to keep it at BEP with that VFD. 17 Th at's what you're trying to do. Now, if you've 18 ar bitrarily lowered it, you're not going to be as 19 ef ficient as you could have been, and that's what 20

-- look, since we know about all of these things, 21 we 're trying to express to you why if we're not 22 ca reful in the way we construct this, we may end

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 149 1 up getting results we wish we hadn't gotten. 2 MR. BROOKMAN: Charlie, you're next. 3 MR. CAPPELLINO: A question for Sarah 4 an d the group. If we eliminated the 50 percent of 5 BE P, the first term, is there a means by which you 6 co uld further down in the analysis where you do a 7 PE R for a drive actually build in more credit for 8 a drive? I mean, I think you could fine-tune the 9 sc heme so that when you do the PER for a bare 10 pu mp, you look at 75 percent, 100 percent, and 110 11 pe rcent, so you address the question and the issue 12 th at these guys raised, and then in the scheme for 13 th e drive, you have some kind of a factor, and you 14 ca n figure out a way to come up with that factor 15 th at gives you the credit that you would get if 16 yo u use the scheme with a 50 percent. 17 MS. WIDDER: Yes. 18 MR. ADIN: So, Charlie, to answer your 19 qu estion, we were actually just conferring about I 20 th ink that same point, and our feeling is that you 21 co uld do that, and certainly if there were 22 co mpelling reasons to use different loading points

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 150 1 fo r different configurations, that would be a 2 re ason you should do it because it would be more 3 re presentative of the way that that particular 4 co nfiguration would be expected to operate. And 5 so the way that in practice that would be done is 6 th ese loading points would be specified in the 7 te st procedure, and you would say, all right, if 8 yo u're testing or you're rating this 9 co nfiguration, these loading points are what you 10 us e, and if it's this other one, you're using a 11 VF D or whatever, you have to use these loading 12 po ints, so you could do it that way, and certainly 13 we would want to know if we think one is more 14 ap propriate than the other. 15 MR. BROOKMAN: Greg, I actually saw 16 Ch uck first. 17 Is your mike on? For some reason we're 18 ha ving a hard time hearing you. 19 MR. POWERS: Chuck Powers. What Charlie 20 re commended makes sense. Lucas, what you guys are 21 th inking about makes sense, too; right? We're 22 ge nerally trying to say, how do we prevent the

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 151 1 pu mp guy, who is possibly going to spend a lot of 2 mo ney here, to making it so we don't have what 3 we 're looking for at the end of the day, but we 4 st ill have to evaluate this 50 percent regrade. I 5 th ink Sarah brought up earlier the weighting. So 6 if we do have the floor, we've got a caucus on 7 th is, that maybe the weighting, we want to be over 8 he re, but we don't want to forget that point, so 9 we have something there, but the hydraulic guy 10 do esn't mess with it. 11 But there is one more significant thing 12 th at we have to think about for a company like 13 ou rs and I think some of the few of the others 14 th at are global. If I got a European standard for 15 th at same pump, and it's three points, and I've 16 go t a U.S.A. standard for four points, which is 17 fi ne, we end up doing, I'm going to double our 18 ef forts probably, costwise, test lab maybe, maybe 19 te st lab, probably not, but all those other 20 fa ctors. 21 Alison, when we were on the phone that 22 da y with you and Brian -- I think it was Brian;

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 152 1 ri ght? Or Daniel, sorry -- that we were going 2 th rough, I was trying to explain that day of the 3 di fferent factors involved very dynamically, I was 4 tr ying to help all the costs involved and things - 5 - for those things. Okay, it just means to a 6 co mpany like ours, maybe not some of the others, 7 bu t I think a few of them here that are global, 8 no w I've got to do it twice. And that's big 9 mo ney; right? 10 MR. BROOKMAN: Greg, you're next. 11 MR. TOWSLEY: Greg Towsley, Grundfos. 12 To try to be concise and take what's been said, 13 th e reason the Europeans did the two steps is that 14 th e first step of the MEI was to make sure that 15 th e most efficient pumps were in place. And then 16 th e next step was to take that most efficient pump 17 an d acknowledge that a system with a pump motor 18 an d/or a drive is an opportunity, they set a 19 di fferent index, a different set of metrics, to it 20 fi rst to clean up the pump and then the second 21 st ep was to be able to take that whole system and 22 pu t that different index that applies to it. And

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 153 1 th e first MEI gets into the point of proper 2 hy draulic design, whereas trying to spread that 3 de sign over the full EEI in their case doesn't 4 ne cessarily apply properly to a pump. So it was a 5 tw o-step option. 6 MS. WILLIAMS: Can I respond to Greg? 7 So , I mean, I think what Lucas and Charlie were 8 ju st saying, can we consider doing that by like 9 fo r a bare pump maybe a weight at .5 is zero or 10 .1 , and then for a pump plus motor plus VFD, your 11 we ight at .5 is much higher? Like does that help 12 so lve that problem? 13 MR. TOWSLEY: Greg Towsley, Grundfos. I 14 ag ree. I think Charlie was heading down that 15 ri ght direction, is where it's separating with 16 di fferent weighting factors and making sure you're 17 fo cusing on the pump only and then a separate way 18 to look at it with everything together. So it was 19 he aded -- yeah, it's headed there. 20 MR. BROOKMAN: Louis. 21 MR. STARR: Louis Starr with NEEA. 22 So, Greg, one question I have is in the

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 154 1 Eu ropean market, where they'll take a motor and it 2 ge ts a certain MEI rating, and then you will take 3 th at motor and you apply it in a VFD, does that 4 me an you select a different motor if you're going 5 to use that in a VFD application as opposed to a 6 co nstant volume motor? And so I'm kind of trying 7 to think what the market effects of that are 8 be cause that's what the problem is being described 9 as , is that people are going to be designing to 10 un desirable points and cherry-picking the 11 ef ficiency point. So I'm wondering if the reverse 12 co uld happen, too, where you design to a constant 13 vo lume application, but you're actually applying 14 it into a VFD application. And is there negative 15 be nefits from that or not? 16 MR. TOWSLEY: Greg Towsley, Grundfos. 17 I' m not really sure. I -- 18 MR. STARR: Well, the same motor; right? 19 MR. BROOKMAN: Maybe Al can respond. 20 MR. HUBER: I think Charlie hit it on 21 th e head, and I think Lucas understands where 22 we 're going here, and I think if we could either

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 155 1 se t the 50 at zero, but I would suggest that you 2 do n't just do the 50 on the variable speed 3 ap plication, that you set those low points at 100, 4 75 , 50, and 25, and that gives you an idea of what 5 be nefit you're going to get from the VFD, a better 6 id ea of the benefits you'll get from the VFD. 7 Now, how that compares with each other, 8 so mebody needs to -- and you've got enough 9 in formation, I think, you could quickly run up and 10 do it that way quickly so we could all see the 11 re sults and see what the PER was between the two, 12 an d then let's look at it as a group and say, 13 "Y eah, that will work," or, "No, that won't, we've 14 go t to do something else." I mean, we're not 15 ag ainst one number, but we are against doing the 16 wr ong calculations to get there. 17 MR. BROOKMAN: Arnie wishes to comment, 18 an d he's finding a microphone. 19 MR. SDANO: Arnie Sdano, Pentair. Two 20 co mments. Number one, I think Lucas mentioned, 21 an d Sarah did earlier, as far as the PER number, I 22 wo uld be totally in favor of switching over to

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 156 1 ef ficiency, it's already a dimensionalist number, 2 an d you end up with something that you really can 3 co mpare from pump to pump, and it makes it 4 so mething that we understand it would meet Al's 5 re quirement of the bigger the number, the better 6 it is -- right? -- so that we would have some 7 un derstanding there. 8 Then secondly, I think I would like to 9 se e the simplification, as we suggested, of the 10 75 , 100, 110, but then if we want to apply a load 11 fa ctor or correction factor that would favor the 12 VF D applications, it seems like a more logical way 13 to go. 14 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Thank you. 15 Joanna. 16 MS. MAUER: I just wanted to make sure I 17 un derstood your previous comments about the 50 18 pe rcent load and that you may reduce the peak 19 br oad in the curve because I think you guys have 20 sa id all along that you kind of like the EU 21 ap proach of having the three points because it 22 ac tually prevents manufacturers from only

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 157 1 de signing for peak, having a very steep curve, but 2 we know that people aren't operating there. 3 So are you saying that the 50 percent 4 po int in particular is problematic? Because, I 5 me an, having 75 and 110 will also tend to lower 6 th e peak somewhat broad in the curve. 7 MR. HUBER: Al Huber, Patterson. We 8 de sign for that operating range, and that 9 op erating range generally is between 75 and 110 10 pe rcent. That's where we design pumps. We don't 11 de sign them out at 50 percent. Okay? We just 12 do n't. And if we did that -- and Chuck is right - 13 - in many cases, if we did it that way, if it 14 be came important, then we would have to consider 15 th at, and in considering that, to do what we would 16 ha ve to do to bring that efficiency up out there, 17 we would have to do something on the suction side 18 of the pump, and when we did that, then 75, 110, 19 an d 100 would drop down just like this, and the 50 20 wo uld go up, but that's not where you want to 21 op erate anyway. You don't want to operate at the 22 50 percent.

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 158 1 I want to make sure that everybody 2 un derstands, if somebody needs to operate at 50, 3 we want them using a VFD, and they're not going to 4 be at 50, they're going to be close to BEP because 5 th at curve is not exact, it doesn't follow 6 ex actly, he's correct, but it will get you very 7 cl ose, and we will stay within that narrow band. 8 MR. POWERS: This is Chuck. But I think 9 al so fundamentally -- and, Joanna, you bring up a 10 go od point -- how many VFDs are out there on these 11 ty pes; right? We know, I think -- I'm not the 12 ex pert at it, but like when we talked about the 13 pr oducts, the HVAC stuff, it's a standard, it's 14 pa rt of it. Every one that goes out the door has 15 it , so that's a given; right? Pool pumps probably 16 10 0 percent; right? But when you're getting into 17 th ese other categories for what we're talking 18 ab out, you know, I don't have an exact answer, but 19 I doubt very many of them have VFDs; right? 20 Now, in communicating this, though, the 21 pu mp guys can end up becoming the best marketing 22 to ol for you -- right? -- for the users and your

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 159 1 co mpanies and stuff like that. We could put right 2 in -- you know, we were talking about -- Charlie 3 wa s kind of neat talking about this label thing. 4 Th at's a great idea, right on the pump or 5 so mething like that, but write in the instruction 6 ma nual, write in our literature that goes out, you 7 sa y, "Look, here's your pump," and it's MEI or 8 it 's some simple thing a layman could understand 9 is X, "but, by the way, if you use a VFD, look 10 wh at it's going to do for you, and if you use 11 th is, look what it will do for you." We can put 12 th ose kinds of things in our information, every 13 pu mp that goes out the door has it in there. 14 MR. BROOKMAN: I'm wondering if you 15 wo uld still like to caucus. I'm looking -- and 16 St eve has got a quick comment. 17 Steve. 18 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Just a quick question 19 on the EEI side. We were talking about the 20 ex tended system. Those numbers were the 50, 75, 21 10 0. That was of the BEP; right? 22 MR. HUBER: That's correct.

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 160 1 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Would you ever really 2 ru n something at 25 percent of BEP? 3 MR. HUBER: No, you would not. That is 4 co rrect. 5 MR. ROSENSTOCK: So my question -- 6 MR. HUBER: What you've got to 7 un derstand, you have to understand, with a VFD, 8 it 's possible to -- it's 25 percent of the flow, 9 BE P flow, not load. 10 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Okay. 11 MR. HUBER: Okay, of flow, so -- 12 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Okay, so it's -- but -- 13 MR. HUBER: And they're two different 14 th ings, and that's why sometimes people who are 15 no t involved in pumps don't understand that. So 16 wh at I would like for you -- if we could, if Sarah 17 co uld run those calculations we were talking -- we 18 ju st discussed, and come up with two PERs that we 19 co uld compare and look at, then I would like to 20 ca ucus with my group after we see that right 21 qu ick. 22 How long will it take you to do that,

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 161 1 Sa rah? 2 MS. WIDDER: Just a couple minutes. I 3 wa s going to do it on the bare pump case. 4 Ev erybody okay with that? 5 MR. HUBER: Well, you do it on the bare 6 pu mp, but also I want to see -- 7 MS. WIDDER: Well, with the controls, 8 we 'll account for that, but just like the 9 ca lculations that we -- 10 MR. BROOKMAN: Let's be clear what 11 yo u're going to produce. 12 MR. HUBER: Yeah, I want to be clear 13 wh at I want. I want a PER calculation with zero 14 we ight on 50 percent. 15 MS. WIDDER: Mm-hmm. 16 MR. HUBER: Then we would like a PER 17 ca lculation with the pump, motor, and control at 18 10 0, 75, 50, and 25, and what is that PER? So 19 th at we all can look at it. 20 MR. ECKMAN: Equal weighting. Equal 21 we ighting. 22 MR. HUBER: Equal weighted: 25, 25, 25.

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 162 1 MS. WIDDER: Yep. 2 MR. HUBER: Okay? 3 MS. WIDDER: Okay. 4 MR. HUBER: And equal weighting on the 5 ot her three. And that's what we would like to 6 se e. If we can do that -- 7 MS. WIDDER: Yep, we can do that. 8 MR. HUBER: -- then we can figure out 9 ho w best to -- if it looks like it's going to be 10 lo gical and work, then we can figure out how to 11 pr esent that to the consumer in a way he can 12 un derstand it. Then we can argue -- well, not 13 ar gue about it, but then we can discuss that. 14 MR. POWERS: And, Steve, this is not a 15 pe rfect (off mike), but I'm showing the curve, and 16 it 's not perfect science. So these dashes down 17 he re are the BEP flows; right? 50 percent, 75, 18 10 0, this is the typical curve thing. This would 19 be -- this is not a system curve even though (off 20 mi ke). This dashed line theoretically would be 21 th e speed (off mike). This line here is what we 22 ca ll (off mike) best efficiency point, so as you

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 163 1 co me down, they don't track perfectly, so where 2 he 's coming from, as you slow it down, you're 3 tr ying to stay within a BEP, but at 25 or 50 4 pe rcent flow of the -- 5 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Of the original speed. 6 MR. POWERS: Of the original speed. 7 MR. HUBER: Of the original speed. 8 MR. POWERS: But there are a lot of 9 ca lculations going there. Is that fair? 10 MR. BROOKMAN: So, yes, Paul Lin. 11 MR. LIN: So just to maybe have it clear 12 in my mind, from a goal standpoint still; right? 13 I think we talked about this on the break. We 14 wa nt to define that the result of this working 15 gr oup is a value for a bare pump, minimum 16 ef ficiency for the bare pump, at the same time, 17 pr oviding a method of the extended product so that 18 we can do a comparison of the bare pump plus motor 19 pl us the control. Right? So what they're going 20 to be regulated on is the bare pump. 21 MR. BROOKMAN: Lucas. 22 MR. ADIN: Well, they would be regulated

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 164 1 on -- it's the pump which we defined as bare pump, 2 pu mp plus motor, pump plus controls; right? So 3 we 're regulated based on whatever that 4 co nfiguration is, but when we do the standard5 se tting analysis, we're making the assumption that 6 th ose other components are just standardized, 7 th ere is some default value. So they're not 8 va rying. The only component that's varying is the 9 ba re pump efficiency. So we are effectively 10 se tting the standard on bare pump efficiency. The 11 me tric is designed to supply information about the 12 ex pected energy use or efficiency of the product 13 as it would actually be used since the pump will 14 be used with a motor and maybe used with some kind 15 of controls. 16 So that's really what we're trying to 17 do , and the way that we had seen it originally is 18 th at having that combined metric adds a degree of 19 fl exibility to the manufacturer because they're 20 no t -- even though we would only be analyzing for 21 im proved pump efficiency, the practical effect is 22 th at they could still get more efficiency from the

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 165 1 to tal product by improving the motor. Like you 2 co uld get other -- there are other ways of 3 im proving efficiency. I don't know if it actually 4 co sts less to use an improved motor over hydraulic 5 im provements to the pump. I mean, that's 6 so mething we'll have to -- you know, I'm sure 7 we 'll hear about, but in any case, that was one 8 pe rceived advantage from our point of view of 9 do ing it that way, but when we do the analysis for 10 th e standard setting, the pump, the bare pump, is 11 th e value that is varied for the purposes of 12 se tting the standard. 13 MR. BROOKMAN: So just to be clear, the 14 me tric that's being considered here is meant to 15 ac commodate or to serve that range of potential 16 ap plications; right? 17 MR. ADIN: Yes. 18 MR. BROOKMAN: Steve Rosenstock. 19 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Steve Rosenstock, EEI. 20 Sa rah, I'm just wondering, I don't know if you 21 ha ve the data, but I know that kind of the example 22 th at you've done is with a 60-horsepower motor.

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 166 1 Do you have any information for a small unit just 2 to see what the numbers come out, let's say a 5- 3 or 10-horsepower motor? 4 MS. WIDDER: I don't with me. I can 5 pl ug in -- so I have this spreadsheet, I can -- if 6 I made up data for a smaller unit, I certainly 7 co uld do that, but I don't think that's helpful. 8 We don't have any test data. 9 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Well, I -- 10 MR. BROOKMAN: Hopefully, right now 11 yo u're working on this -- the request that Al just 12 ma de. 13 MS. WIDDER: Yep. That's what I'm 14 do ing. 15 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. So let's let her 16 do that. Okay? 17 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Well -- Steve 18 Ro senstock, EEI -- yeah, I just wanted to -- 19 be cause we're doing such a wide range of possible 20 co nfigurations, I just, for myself, I just want to 21 se e how the numbers shook out at a small number 22 be cause that could have an impact in terms of what

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 167 1 ki nd of metric we eventually decide on. 2 MR. BROOKMAN: Right. So let's not lose 3 th at idea, let's just let her complete this 4 ca lculation. 5 Arnie. 6 MR. SDANO: Arnie Sdano, Pentair. 7 Sa rah, I've got a question. I know that you had 8 de scribed the 1.8 exponent on the system head 9 cu rve, and the 2.8 on scaling up of the power. 10 MS. WIDDER: Right. 11 MR. SDANO: I've got some questions on 12 th at. I don't really fully agree with that. When 13 yo u did your calculations, that means that the 14 in tersection with the pump curve would change. 15 It 's not a single point on the pump curve that 16 yo u're scaling down, so you have to have a curve 17 fi t to the pump curve when you do that analysis. 18 Di d you include that? 19 MS. WIDDER: What we did was we assumed 20 th at from BEP you were starting at BEP and 21 fo llowing the curve down, so -- 22 MR. SDANO: For a 50 percent change in

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 168 1 sp eed for the pump, it will follow the affinity 2 la ws with a 2.0 exponent and a 3.0 exponent, 3 th ough. 4 MS. WIDDER: Right. So based -- and we 5 ca n certainly redo the analysis to account for a 6 3. 0 exponent. 7 MR. SDANO: That would really simplify 8 it , I think, if you would do that. 9 MS. WIDDER: Yeah. So the reason we had 10 as sumed 2.8 was, A, based on this data that I 11 fo und in the ASHRAE Fundamentals Handbook about -- 12 an yways, but, yes, we can redo it with the 13 fu ndamental affinity laws and -- 14 MR. SDANO: Yeah. And I agree with that 15 st atement that generally pump system designers 16 wi ll use a lower exponent, but it's usually more 17 co nservative of the 1.95 range because they 18 re alize that when it starts up, the pipes are 19 cl ean and they have less friction, but with time, 20 th ere is going to be some corrosion in the pipe 21 th at's going to occur, and the friction will 22 us ually come back up to that 2.0 level.

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 169 1 MS. WIDDER: Right. So we can change 2 th at. The other thing that I'll just mention with 3 re gard to the reason for selecting a 2.8 exponent 4 in stead of 3 was partly to represent what pumps 5 ex perience in the field and partly to ensure the 6 ca lculation was conservative. 7 MR. SDANO: As you mentioned, well, it 8 so rt of depends because if you assume it's also 9 ap plicable to the pump, then that's not the case. 10 So I would think that just for simplification, you 11 wo uld be much better off assuming that the 12 af finity laws are going to hold both for the pump 13 an d the system, use the 2.0 and the 3.0 on the 14 po wer. 15 MS. WIDDER: Okay. So the calculations 16 I' ll present in a minute will use a 3.0 exponent. 17 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. So what I would 18 li ke to do is provide Sarah relief so she can do 19 th is calculation. I would like to raise another 20 is sue until she's ready to report, and that's the 21 is sue that a few individuals have raised earlier, 22 wh ich is a bigger number is better, a bigger

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 170 1 nu mber is better for a signal to the consumer I 2 th ink is the implication that Al put on the table, 3 an d others have said such a thing. Is that your 4 le aning? Is that the working group generally? Is 5 th at something -- 6 Tom Eckman, I see you nodding your head. 7 MR. ECKMAN: I think all sides of the 8 ta ble agree with that. (Laughing.) 9 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. And then, Al, you 10 ca n speak on behalf of your caucus in this 11 re spect? 12 MR. HUBER: Yes, absolutely. I think 13 it 's human nature, and you're trying to drive -- 14 we ll, I guess we shouldn't say that, but you are 15 tr ying to drive behavior, positive behavior, so I 16 th ink you should reinforce it, and the larger 17 nu mber makes it look like it's better. 18 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. 19 MR. HUBER: And when we look at the 20 ef ficiency of a pump, it's always the higher 21 nu mber is better. And if you use something that 22 sa ys "PER," "Pump Energy Rating," it should be the

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 171 1 be tter it is, the higher it is. I mean, that's 2 th e normal way the human mind works in looking at 3 th ese things. And that's my opinion, but -- 4 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. I just thought I 5 wo uld see. I don't think -- I think -- I'm not 6 no ting as I scan the room that there is any 7 di ssent on this point yet. I'm not going to act 8 fo rmally on it, but I just thought I would get a 9 te mperature read. 10 Lucas? 11 MR. ADIN: Maybe I'll just point out in 12 ge neral terms. I mean, we understand that feeling 13 ab out it generally, and there are standards -- you 14 co uld categorize DOE energy standards for 15 di fferent products either as consumption standards 16 or efficiency standards. Some are efficiency: 17 ob viously higher is better; consumption, lower is 18 be tter. But we're listening to you on what makes 19 th e most sense to the customers in your market. 20 Ho w do they use this information? What makes 21 se nse to them? And so that's the factor that, you 22 kn ow, it could be lower, or higher is better, but

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 172 1 wh at will communicate the best information to 2 th em? And I think that's really what we're 3 he aring from the other members here, so -- 4 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. 5 MS. WIDDER: Okay. We're pretty much 6 do ne. I'm just double checking since we had those 7 is sues before. Okay, we're good. 8 So here are the results. Let me make 9 th is a little bit more -- 10 MS. WILLIAMS: Sarah? 11 MS. WIDDER: Yeah. 12 MS. WILLIAMS: Are you sure that (off 13 mi ke)? 14 MS. WIDDER: This one? 15 MS. WILLIAMS: (Off mike) 48. 16 MS. WIDDER: This one? 17 MS. WILLIAMS: Shouldn't that be lower? 18 MS. WIDDER: Yeah. Let me check. Okay. 19 Pu mp plus motor, it's zero, zero -- I don't know. 20 Ye ah, there we go. 21 MR. BROOKMAN: Yes, Mark. 22 MR. HANDZEL: Mark Handzel from Xylem.

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 173 1 Ca n we just maybe take an early lunch and give her 2 so me time because I hate to put her on the spot, 3 yo u know, as you have a room full of people 4 si tting here watching her. We want it to be 5 ac curate, so let her do it right. 6 MR. BROOKMAN: You want to take it with 7 yo u to lunch with you, don't you? 8 UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: Sarah, I 9 th ink that's 48. 10 MS. WIDDER: Yeah. I just changed it. 11 UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: I mean, we 12 co uld, but I don't -- 13 MR. BROOKMAN: I was thinking that we 14 we re real close. 15 UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: Okay. 16 MR. BROOKMAN: Let's give it a chance. 17 UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: Okay. 18 MS. WIDDER: Yep. Yep. 19 MR. POWERS: Sarah, this is great 20 be cause in a way this would help (off mike) for 21 so me hydraulics. The 75 to 110 is 48. The 50 to 22 11 0 (off mike) 45 (off mike) in this case would be

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 174 1 th e 25 or 100, but that doesn't show the 110 (off 2 mi ke), but what we would be recommending would be 3 th e 75 to 110 is going to get efficiencies higher 4 fo r the overall concept, you know, from that 5 st andpoint. 6 MR. BROOKMAN: So do you feel like 7 yo u've got it now? 8 MS. WIDDER: Yeah. I mean, I think 9 th ese numbers, they make sense, they all go down. 10 Th e 25 percent. So the things that I see here are 11 th e 25 percent, this middle column, you get the 12 be st impact from a VFD, but you see a decrease in 13 po wer consumption in every case. 14 UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: Yeah. 15 MS. WIDDER: You see the least with the 16 75 , 100, 110. If we compared -- I mean, the issue 17 he re is what we've been discussing is comparing 18 th is number to this number, which is it's just 19 ap ples and oranges. You know, they shouldn't be 20 co mpared and that's just what we're talking about. 21 Fo r the 50 -- for the scenario we've been 22 di scussing, it's just sort of like a hybrid

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 175 1 be tween the two, it's just a compromise. 2 MR. BROOKMAN: So you were asking for a 3 ca ucus, a chance to break and talk about this. 4 It 's 11:30. I'm a little hungry. 5 (Laughter.) 6 MR. BROOKMAN: Shall we break for lunch 7 no w? Because when we return from lunch, we're 8 go ing to stop at 3:00 today. 9 MR. POWERS: What are the topics we have 10 to cover this afternoon? 11 MR. BROOKMAN: Well, I think this is 12 pr imarily it. And there may be a few loose ends 13 th at Lucas has got, a few small items, but I think 14 th is is principally what we intend to cover in the 15 re mainder of the day. 16 MR. POWERS: So we could be done by 1:00 17 th en. 18 (Laughter.) 19 MS. WIDDER: Well, if that's the case, 20 we 'll bring up some other stuff. (Laughing.) 21 MR. BROOKMAN: Steve Rosenstock. 22 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Steve Rosenstock, EEI.

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 176 1 I' m looking at this and again I'm just -- I was 2 ju st -- I probably need to go back to that page 3 wi th the denominator, but I'm kind of curious with 4 ce rtain constructs, with certain denominators, 5 es pecially if they're fixed denominators, it will 6 st ay say eventually it will be lower is better. 7 MR. BROOKMAN: Lucas Adin. 8 MR. ADIN: Would it be helpful for us to 9 sh ow this with different denominators? 10 MR. HUBER: Yeah. I think -- yeah. 11 MS. WIDDER: Yeah. Let me make a big 12 ta ble over lunch and then we can talk about it. 13 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay, let's do that. 14 Le t's break for -- 15 MR. HUBER: Yeah, that would be good. 16 MS. WIDDER: Okay. 17 MR. BROOKMAN: Break for lunch. 18 MR. POWERS: Sarah, how much time do you 19 ne ed so we benefit you? 20 MS. WIDDER: Right. I mean, I think 21 wh atever we take for lunch usually is fine. I 22 me an, it won't -- I've got it all set up, so I

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 177 1 ju st need to do it. 2 MR. POWERS: But you have to eat, too. 3 So , I mean, do you have enough time? 4 MS. WIDDER: Yeah. It will be fine. 5 MR. BROOKMAN: It's 11:30. Let's break 6 fo r lunch. We'll return -- we'll resume at 12:30. 7 Ok ay. 8 (Lunch.) 9 MR. BROOKMAN: So let's resume. The 10 co mputer is working, so we can pick up where we 11 le ft off. Let me also say for those of you that 12 ar e joining us via the web, maybe they're just now 13 re joining us via the web, welcome. The Department 14 of Energy is trying very hard to make these 15 me etings accessible. And I hope you're finding 16 th is working group meeting useful for your 17 pu rposes. 18 Where we left off was that Sarah was 19 do ing some crunching during lunch. She also got 20 to eat; I confirmed that. That's important. 21 Gary Fernstrom, before we go into some 22 da ta presentation.

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 178 1 MR. FERNSTROM: So Gary. You mentioned 2 ac cessible, and that brought to mind the promise 3 th at we would be able to utilize the SharePoint. 4 MR. BROOKMAN: Good point. 5 MR. FERNSTROM: And I don't know that I 6 ha ve gotten my password to the SharePoint -- 7 MR. BROOKMAN: I think you're cutting in 8 an d out. Are you hitting that thing? 9 MR. FERNSTROM: Yeah. I'm turning the - 10 - thank you. 11 (Laughter.) 12 MR. BROOKMAN: So maybe we'll ask 13 Je remiah. 14 Lucas, go ahead. 15 MR. ADIN: Yeah. Well, I think Doug was 16 go ing to say it, but we'll try and get to the 17 bo ttom of why that might be a problem, because you 18 sh ould have access, so, yeah. 19 MR. BROOKMAN: We established, clearly 20 es tablished, that this read-only access should be 21 av ailable, and so we'll make that happen. 22 MR. FERNSTROM: So anyway, I had asked

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 179 1 fo r myself and read-only access for the consultant 2 th at's working with us at Energy Solutions. 3 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Lucas will follow 4 up on that. 5 Meg, you want to -- are you all set? 6 (No audible response.) 7 MR. BROOKMAN: Mark, do you want in 8 he re? 9 MR. HANDZEL: I was just going to offer 10 to forward Gary the e-mail I sent to Jeremiah this 11 mo rning asking for my password -- 12 (Laughter.) 13 MR. HANDZEL: -- and he sent me an e14 ma il back and gave me the e-mail address that I 15 ne eded to send the request to. So I have already 16 se nt that, so I'll forward it to Gary so he can 17 se e it, but -- 18 MR. BROOKMAN: Meg. 19 MS. WALTNER: I'll just add to that. If 20 yo u haven't logged in, in a certain amount of 21 ti me, your old password expires. That has 22 ha ppened to me, too. So if you're having trouble

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 180 1 lo gging in, e-mail that address. 2 MR. BROOKMAN: Oh, that is, after you 3 re ceive the e-mail from Jeremiah, you need to log 4 in expeditiously. 5 MS. WALTNER: No, like if you haven't 6 lo gged in since December, your password is now 7 ex pired. 8 MR. BROOKMAN: Ah. 9 MS. WALTNER: You need to get a new 10 pa ssword. 11 MR. BROOKMAN: Do you know what the 12 ti meframe is? 13 MS. WALTNER: I think it's 90 days. 14 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Good enough. 15 MS. WALTNER: Yeah, that's what happened 16 to me. 17 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. That's good to 18 kn ow, good to know. 19 Sarah. Sarah Widder is up. 20 MS. WIDDER: Okay. So I apologize that 21 I have not clearly come up with an excellent 22 pr esentation of this data, so it's just a lot of

### Capital Reporting Company Commercial/Industrial Pumps Working Group 03-27-2014

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 181 1 nu mbers, but I will describe briefly what we are 2 lo oking at here, and then we can drill into 3 an ything the committee might be interested in, 4 ma ke some charts if we want. Across the top here, 5 th ese are the weighting, the load factors. And 6 th ese are all -- or, no, excuse me. These are the 7 lo ad factors are 50, 75, 100, and 110, and that 8 wo uld be equal weighting at these load factors. 9 Th is one is equal weighting at those load points. 10 Th is is equal weighting at the EU load points, so 11 th ose were the three we looked at before. And 12 th en I've also added the normal weighting for just 13 in specific these load points, so just what we had 14 th e calculation -- the sensitivity on previously. 15 It was the 50, 75, 100, and 110 load points, but 16 th en we have now weighted the 50 percent load 17 po int differently, we based it on a normal 18 di stribution, sort of like we talked about in the 19 sl ides. It's just looking at the manipulation of 20 we ighting. We can change those if we want to. 21 MR. BROOKMAN: But that's still not 22 cl ear to me.

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 182 1 MS. WIDDER: Okay. So let me do that 2 on e more time. 3 So let's ignore these for a second. The 4 on es that are not highlighted, these three, are 5 wh at we looked at before. So these are equally 6 we ighted on the left-hand column, 50 percent of 7 BE P flow, 75 percent of BEP flow, 100 percent of 8 BE P flow, and 110 percent of BEP flow. Let me 9 ju st write that. And then equal weighting. 10 So this one is the same except for the - 11 - what's that? 12 MR. BROOKMAN: We got all three of 13 th ose, it's just when you moved the normal 14 di stribution, that's the one that confused us. 15 MS. WIDDER: Yep. Okay. So let me -- 16 so that is 50, 75, 110 percent of BEP flow, and 17 no rmalized weights as opposed to equal weighting. 18 An d then the discrete values versus bins just 19 re fers to how the normalization is applied to the 20 di fferent load points. So I've brought up -- I 21 ca n actually go back to the -- there we go. So 22 do es that help? Anybody?

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 183 1 MR. POTTS: Sarah. 2 MS. WIDDER: Yeah. 3 MR. POTTS: This is Doug Potts. So the 4 no rmalized distribution, you're following the 5 no rmal distribution curve that you have at the 6 ba ck of those slides. Is that what you're saying? 7 MS. WIDDER: Mm-hmm. Precisely. 8 MR. POTTS: Thank you. 9 MS. WIDDER: And so if -- 10 MR. POTTS: Can you refresh me on like 11 wh at the values are? 12 MS. WIDDER: Yeah. Let's go back to 13 th at. Right here, there is the load shape that we 14 as sumed, and right here this bar chart, the darker 15 an d lighter blue bars are the specific weights 16 th at are applied. The specific values are not on 17 th is chart, but you can see that the discrete bins 18 wi ll be -- or the discrete values will be about 19 .4 7, .42, .08, and .02 or 4 or something like that 20 at 110 percent, and then the lighter blue bars are 21 a little bit above .3. The highest bar at 75 22 pe rcent of BEP flow, .4, I don't know, 8, 6, 7, or

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 184 1 8. And then a .18 and 100 percent of BEP flow and 2 th en very little weight on the 110 percent of BEP 3 fl ow. 4 MR. POTTS: Okay. Sarah? 5 MS. WIDDER: Yeah. 6 7 MR. POTTS: I mean, I don't -- I think 8 th at probably doesn't -- it's probably not a great 9 re presentation of where pumps would operate. I 10 me an, I think they would normally be operating -- 11 is this meant to represent the variable speed 12 si tuation or even a constant speed situation? 13 MS. WIDDER: This was meant to -- so 14 wh en we had broken up the discussion previously, 15 we talked about -- Lucas -- or Louis had suggested 16 ap plying a normal load curve, and so we applied a 17 no rmal load curve from zero to 120 percent of BEP 18 fl ow, and it's just math determining those values. 19 So there is definitely -- I have not gone out and 20 ga thered data on what representative load factors 21 wo uld be. I have tried to gather data, and it's 22 al l over the board. So I think we can certainly

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 185 1 lo ok at different -- if we wanted to more heavily 2 we ight perhaps the 75 percent and 100 percent of 3 BE P flow conditions and weight less the others 4 on e, the point of having these on the chart that I 5 ma de was to look at -- actually, maybe it would 6 he lp if I moved this column from here to here. So 7 no w we can compare these three, and then if we 8 co mpare these three, it's looking at the impact of 9 th e different weights on the PER value. Does that 10 ma ke sense? 11 MR. POWERS: I think, Sarah, yeah, it 12 wo uld help -- 13 MR. BROOKMAN: First compare these 14 th ree; right? 15 MS. WIDDER: Right. I had to go back. 16 I' m sorry. It messed up my other one. Hold on. 17 Pe rhaps I should have not even put the normal on 18 he re. Let me see if that worked. Yes. Okay. 19 No w we're good. 20 So now go back to your thing, Doug? 21 MR. POTTS: Well, I thought you were 22 su ggesting that the first point of comparison are

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 186 1 th ese three cells here. 2 MS. WIDDER: Yep. 3 MR. POTTS: These three columns. 4 MS. WIDDER: Yeah. So let's just do 5 th at. 6 MR. POTTS: Okay. Yeah. 7 MS. WIDDER: We'll just hide these for 8 no w. We'll pretend that they're not there. Okay. 9 So we're looking at the same three. 10 Yeah, Al? 11 MR. HUBER: You know, I don't want to 12 ov ercomplicate this. What we really -- what our 13 pr oposal is of what we really want to discuss is, 14 is that we want to see the bare pump, and you 15 mi ght as well make the bare pump and the motor, 16 th eir values judged at 75, 100, and 110 percent. 17 MS. WIDDER: Mm-hmm. 18 MR. HUBER: And the variable speed only, 19 pu mp, motor, and control, only one is of real 20 in terest to us, and that is what you marked in 21 ye llow -- 22 MS. WIDDER: Right. So those values are

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 187 1

-- 2 MR. HUBER: And you should mark in 3 ye llow the pump motor under the 75, 100, and 110. 4 MS. WIDDER: Okay. So those are the 5 va lues that are of interest to you guys -- 6 MR. HUBER: That's all we're interested 7 in . 8 MS. WIDDER: But I did want to include 9 al l the other values just from a basis of 10 co mparison. 11 MR. HUBER: That's fine, but, I mean, 12 th at tells us what we're looking for. Now, I 13 me an, you could do the inverse of that and then 14 yo u would be able to do what we were talking about 15 ea rlier and having the higher value, the best 16 va lue -- 17 MS. WIDDER: Right. So actually this 18 on e right here, I took the inverse, and so these - 19

- 20 MR. HUBER: Yeah, but you did something 21 el se, too; right? 22 MS. WIDDER: This? No, this is just the

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 188 1 in verse. 2 MR. HUBER: Okay. That's fine. 3 MS. WIDDER: Right here, higher is 4 be tter. 5 MR. HUBER: Okay. 6 MS. WIDDER: So it's just the inverse of 7 on e over the other value. We'll hide those. 8 MR. HUBER: The problem is, the problem 9 th at I see here is, is that the pump and motor 10 lo oks better than just the pump. 11 MS. WIDDER: Yes. 12 MR. HUBER: And that can't be. 13 MS. WIDDER: Why not? 14 MR. ADIN: Well, we -- 15 MR. HUBER: Because you -- 16 MS. WIDDER: Oh. 17 MR. ADIN: Wait. 18 MS. WIDDER: Sorry. 19 MR. ADIN: I think you need to clarify 20 th e assumptions that are made in coming up with 21 th ose two numbers. 22 MS. WIDDER: Right. Right.

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 189 1 MR. ADIN: The one that says bare pump 2 ac tually does have an assumption for a motor, it's 3 ju st a minimum efficiency motor. 4 MS. WIDDER: Right. 5 MR. ADIN: The pump plus motor assumes 6 th e motor is more efficient than the minimum DOE 7 fe deral standard. 8 MR. HUBER: Now you're getting us 9 co nfused. You need to try to make this simple so 10 th at we can -- 11 (Laughter.) 12 MR. HUBER: I'm serious now. You're 13 ge tting way out of hand with all these 14 pe rmutations. We really need to dig down and 15 fi gure out what it is we're trying to do. Now, if 16 ba re pump is pump and motor, where in the world is 17 ba re pump? 18 MS. WIDDER: So the -- 19 MR. HUBER: Where is bare pump? Just 20 pu mp, just the pump? Where is just the pump? 21 MS. WIDDER: I did not calculate just 22 th e pump.

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 190 1 MR. HUBER: Well, that's what we need. 2 We need the pump, we need the pump motor, and we 3 ne ed the VFD, and that's what we really need. 4 MR. POWERS: And, Sarah, I think -- this 5 is Chuck Powers -- to help Al out, I think also 6 ju st to be fair, if you take a guy like Doug, who 7 sp oke up earlier, I understand what you were 8 tr ying to do with this chart, with the bar chart, 9 an d I also understand what you were trying to do 10 wi th this curve normalization you're doing, but 11 it 's not the real world. So if you're going to 12 sh ow data up there -- right? -- that shows people 13 ar e running pumps back here at 50 percent and at 14 th e 100 percent capacity it's showing it's way 15 do wn at less than 005 percent weight, that's far 16 fr om the real world. 17 And I'm not trying to speak up, but 18 Do ug, who designs and buys this stuff and runs 19 th is equipment all the time is a good benchmark, 20 so to speak, but I think if you were to go out and 21 do that, and if you don't have the data, and I'm 22 no t saying you should have, we shouldn't represent

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 191 1 st uff that's just not even close because it's 2 go ing to start to send us down the wrong path. 3 MS. WIDDER: Okay. So let's not talk 4 ab out the normalization, let's just talk about 5 eq ual weighting. Yeah. 6 MR. BROOKMAN: Paul, do you want to go 7 ah ead? Paul Lin. 8 MR. LIN: Paul Lin, with Regal-Beloit. 9 I asked myself that same question when I was doing 10 th e homework, when I was looking through the 11 ch arts, it was talking about the bare pump, and my 12 qu estion to myself at the time was, why would we 13 in clude the motor efficiency within the bare pump 14 eq uation? Because my view was that you wouldn't, 15 bu t then I thought about it a little bit more and 16 sa id I think the only reason that they've done 17 th at is that they can more easily compare when you 18 ge t to a pump and motor and then pump, motor, and 19 co ntrol standpoint because if you didn't have an 20 ef ficiency standpoint on a bare pump, the -- or 21 th e, I shouldn't say the dimensions -- the units 22 th at is applied to a bare pump could not be

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 192 1 we ighed against a bare pump plus motor and bare 2 pu mp plus control plus motor. 3 MS. WIDDER: Mm-hmm. 4 MR. LIN: I think that's the reason why 5 th ey included some default motor efficiency on 6 th at bare pump side. 7 MR. HUBER: Al Huber, Patterson. I 8 un derstand that, but what -- here's what we're 9 tr ying to do as manufacturers, though. We're 10 tr ying to come up with an MEI, or a Minimum 11 Ef ficiency Index, for the pump only, and we'll 12 ha ve to do that regardless, and we all agree to 13 th at. 14 So we basically have three things we're 15 tr ying to do -- right? -- we're trying to make 16 su re that we have a measurement of, and those are 17 th e three elements that we outlined in the 18 or iginal screen -- a bare pump, a bare pump with 19 mo tor, and a bare pump with motor and control -- 20 an d we need to try to do that. I mean, that's 21 wh at we need to do. 22 I did not understand when you had bare

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 193 1 pu mp in there, it had a standard motor, and then 2 yo u had pump and motor that had a better 3 ef ficiency, I had no idea that's what you were 4 do ing. 5 MS. WIDDER: Okay. 6 MR. HUBER: I don't think anybody else 7 di d. 8 MS. WIDDER: So you just want the pump 9 po wer weighted at those load points. That's what 10 yo u would like? 11 MR. HUBER: You know, yeah, or whatever, 12 wh atever you're going to do. 13 MS. WIDDER: So the pump power weighted 14 at those load points will take me a little bit to 15 go and fill in for each of these cases, but -- 16 MR. HUBER: You don't have to do that. 17 It 's just -- 18 MS. WIDDER: It will be -- I'll tell you 19 ri ght now, with no motor, it will be slightly 20 hi gher. If I'm going to guess numbers, and I'll 21 ma ke them bold so we know that they're -- I'll 22 ma ke them red so we know they're my guesses -- it

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 194 1 wo uld be something like 39.1, 48 point -- well, 2 es sentially it will be about this divided by zero 3 po int -- 4 MR. HUBER: Nine, yeah, right. 5 MS. WIDDER: That's what it will be. 6 MR. HUBER: Okay. Now, so we sell -- 7 MS. WALTNER: (Off mike.) 8 MS. WIDDER: Oh. No, it will be 9 di vided. 10 UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: Because if 11 yo u would multiply it (off mike) you would 12 mu ltiply (off mike). 13 UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: Go 14 ba ckwards. 15 MS. WIDDER: Oh, going backwards. 16 Yo u're right. 17 UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE SPEAKER: (Off mike) 18 di vided by the (off mike) originally. 19 MS. WIDDER: Yep. Yep. You're right. 20 Th ere we go. 21 MS. WILLIAMS: So this is Alison. While 22 sh e's doing that, I just want to -- I mean, the

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 195 1 re ason we're using a default motor is because all 2 pu mps have to be driven. Right? And so we felt 3 th at it was more representative and comparable to 4 as sume that they have a driver of some sort. 5 MR. HUBER: That's fine. But you've got 6

-- you know, somebody needs to explain it. When 7 yo u tell me a bare pump, anybody on this side of 8 th e table, it's a pump with nothing on it, a 9 se parate pump. Now, we sell those, and this is 10 wh ere we've got to -- this is what this room has 11 to try to wrestle with. In the marketplace, we do 12 se ll bare pumps, that is, with no motor. And we 13 do sell pumps with motors, and we sell pumps with 14 pu mp, motor, and control. So we've got to have -- 15 se riously, we've got to have some way to measure 16 th ose three. And you're wanting to use the same 17 me asurement; correct? I mean, that's what you 18 de cided when you say "measurement." 19 Part of this exercise was to see if that 20 lo gically will work out. And that was the reason 21 I wanted you to do this, so that we could look at 22 th e figures and say, okay, did somebody make a

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 196 1 re asonable purchase with this information or not? 2 Ri ght? I mean, that's what you're -- 3 MR. POWERS: Okay, but, Sarah, please 4 st op what you're doing, just stop for a second. 5 MS. WIDDER: Okay. 6 MR. BROOKMAN: Chuck Powers. 7 MR. POWERS: Yeah, sorry, Chuck Powers. 8 Co uld you just stop and look up? 9 MS. WIDDER: Yep. What's up? 10 (Laughter.) 11 MR. POWERS: There you go. Okay. You 12 pu tting in red numbers does us no good right now. 13 I get where you're going, but the bottom line is 14 if you have a bare pump -- just listen to the 15 ma th. Okay? You know this. If a motor was 95, 16 yo u're 5 percent less efficiency for the combined 17 un it. So if the pump was 1, the combination would 18 be .95. If you threw in a VFD in there, just 19 th row out the 95 percent, it would be another 5 20 pe rcent. So the combination, by definition, would 21 be a .9. You're starting, just throwing numbers 22 in here, you're saying a bare pump would be less

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 197 1 ef ficient than a pump and a motor from wire-to2 wa ter. That's not true. 3 MS. WIDDER: A bare pump would be -- 4 MS. WILLIAMS: Yeah, so great. That's 5 ju st a scenario. So what she has for the bare 6 pu mp is basically based on assuming a default 7 fe deral minimum efficiency motor, and just for 8 pu rposes of comparison, for the pump plus motor, 9 sh e said, what if we pair that pump with a better 10 ef ficiency motor so that you, as a manufacturer, 11 ca n be like, "Hey, look, I have a better pump"? 12 So all we're doing with what we've been 13 ca lling bare pump is just taking the pump 14 ef ficiency and assigning a default motor 15 ef ficiency value. 16 MR. HUBER: I have no problem with that, 17 an d I don't think these folks do either. You 18 re ally don't need up on this screen for what we're 19 tr ying to decide a pump with a better motor, you 20 do n't need that there. For this decision process, 21 we don't need that. 22 MS. WIDDER: Okay.

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 198 1 MR. HUBER: And I don't disagree that 2 yo u've got to drive it with something. If you 3 wa nt to set the standard and the assumption is 4 th at a bare pump is a pump with a standardized 5 mo tor, that's fine, too. You just need to 6 un derstand you better tell us what your 7 as sumptions are -- 8 MS. WILLIAMS: Yeah. 9 MS. WIDDER: Okay. 10 MR. HUBER: -- because we don't -- we 11 di dn't understand that. 12 MS. WIDDER: Yeah. And I apologize. It 13 wa s a misunderstanding on my part because I had 14 be en thinking bare pump means bare pump plus 15 mi nimum efficiency motor, but now we have at least 16 re asonable assumptions for what that PER might 17 lo ok like for purposes of comparison, and I can 18 co ntinue filling this in, but maybe let's look at 19 wh at we see right here, and I'll get rid of the 20 ro ws that you don't need. So is this looking more 21 li ke what you were expecting, Al? 22 MR. HUBER: Yeah. When you say a bare

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 199 1 pu mp is the one with a standard motor, and then 2 yo u've got pump, motor -- 3 MS. WIDDER: No, no, no, no. Sorry. So 4 le t me make them -- I'll write them again. Okay. 5 So here we've got bare pump, no motor. 6 MR. HUBER: Just kill bare pump. 7 MS. WIDDER: Okay. 8 (Laughter.) 9 MR. HUBER: And peel out pump and motor 10 th at's got the better efficiency. 11 MS. WIDDER: Okay. Okay. 12 MR. HUBER: We're not worried about 13 th at. 14 MR. POWERS: We don't want minimum 15 ef ficiency, you want the better efficiency. 16 MR. HUBER: No, I don't want -- 17 (Laughter.) 18 MS. WIDDER: Oh, my god. Okay. Yes. 19 Ye s. 20 MR. HUBER: No. We're setting the 21 st andards here; right? 22 (Laughter.)

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 200 1 MS. WIDDER: Yes. Yeah. 2 MR. POTTS: So let me take a stab at -- 3 MS. WIDDER: Okay. Great. That would 4 be excellent. 5 MR. BROOKMAN: Doug Potts. Please, 6 Do ug. 7 MR. POTTS: And I may be off base, but I 8

-- so I got a little bit confused by something 9 th at was said by Lucas before lunch, and so I 10 ta lked to him when we broke for lunch, and it 11 he lped give me some clarity, and so I'm going to 12 tr y to reiterate some of that and maybe that's 13 he lpful. Because when Lucas said we're regulating 14 th e pump only, I think my understanding so far, 15 si nce we have these three scenarios -- pump; pump 16 mo tor; pump, motor, controls -- I thought the 17 re gulation was going to cover, well, if you're 18 go ing to supply just a pump, then you have to meet 19 a certain standard; if you're going to supply a 20 pu mp and motor, you have to meet another standard; 21 yo u have to -- to do the third option, you have to 22

-- and what Lucas was explaining to me is, no, the

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 201 1 in tent is not to create a secondary standard for 2 mo tors, which are already regulated, or the 3 st andard for VFDs, the intent is to improve the 4 ef ficiency of pumps but also recognize that if 5 yo u, as a manufacturer, are supplying a pump with 6 a better efficiency motor or supplying it with a 7 be tter efficiency motor and/or a VFD, then you 8 so rt of essentially get credit for that in the 9 ma th. And then so the various options I think 10 th at Sarah was presenting this morning are 11 di fferent -- are showing those different 12 ma thematical methodologies for calculating that. 13 An d so we can argue over the weightings and stuff 14 li ke that. 15 So, Sarah, correct me if I'm wrong. I 16 th ink what your intent to do was to show using 17 th ose proposed or suggested methodologies, how 18 do es the math come out; right? 19 MS. WIDDER: That was it. 20 MR. POTTS: And so your intent with this 21 ta ble is not to compare what's more efficient, a 22 ba re pump or a bare pump with a VFD, your intent

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 202 1 is to compare the mathematical options; right? 2 MS. WIDDER: Mm-hmm. 3 MR. POTTS: And to see how they play 4 ou t. Did I -- 5 MS. WIDDER: Yeah. 6 MR. POTTS: So is that -- hopefully that 7 be tter clarifies what I think she was trying to 8 do . 9 MR. BROOKMAN: And following Greg Case's 10 st atement yesterday that you want some of this 11 de tail, I believe, Greg, you were saying that, for 12 ex ample, if you had a minimally compliant pump and 13 yo u, as a manufacturer, thought it was on the edge 14 of being compliant or meeting the standard, then 15 yo u could pair it with a more efficient motor, and 16 yo u would know, as a manufacturer, that you're in 17 th e safe zone; right? That was your logic 18 ye sterday. Just to follow on what Doug said. I'm 19 no t putting words in your mouth. 20 MR. CASE: I don't know if that was me, 21 bu t yeah. I'm following you. 22 (Laughter.)

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 203 1 MR. BROOKMAN: So where are we now? 2 Le t's let these guys consider what's up here. 3 MR. ROSENSTOCK: She's still changing 4 th ings. 5 MS. WIDDER: Yep. Nope. I'm going to 6 st op changing now. I'm done. I just wanted to 7 ma ke it so we could get them all on the same page 8 an d they would have the same order. So there you 9 go . 10 MR. BROOKMAN: So Paul Lin. 11 MR. LIN: I'm Paul with Regal. I just 12 wa nt to clarify. You have 93 percent? We're 13 ta lking a 60-horse, 4-pole. Are we looking at the 14 NE MA 12-12 table? 15 MS. WIDDER: We're looking at Table 3. 16 It 's for open premium efficiency -- 17 MR. LIN: So that would be 95. 18 MS. WIDDER: Oh, no, not premium 19 ef ficiency, it's a DOE minimum standard for a 4- 20 po le, 60-horse open -- 21 MR. LIN: Which are premium. 22 MS. WIDDER: I don't know. I --

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 204 1 MR. ROSENSTOCK: It should be the 2 st andard now. They bumped it up, the minimum -- 3 St eve Rosenstock, EEI. The standards went up in 4 20 10 and DOE is doing another rule where they're 5 pr obably going to go up again in 2016 or 2017. 6 MS. WIDDER: This is what I just looked 7 up in the CFR I found online. 8 MR. BROOKMAN: So what is the number? 9 MS. WIDDER: It was 93.6. 10 MR. BROOKMAN: Thank you. 11 MR. POWERS: So, Sarah, a question. 12 MR. BROOKMAN: Chuck Powers. 13 MR. POWERS: Again, good data, so just 14 he lp me out. So the first line up there, which is 15 Ro w 4, it says "bare pump," so that's literally 16 ba re pump as we would see it. Like on the 40.6 17 sp ec, you would put it on the test stand, whether 18 yo u want to put a motor on it or string gauge or 19 wh atever you do, that's just the factor for the 20 ba re pump. 21 MS. WIDDER: Correct. 22 MR. POWERS: Okay. Then the next one

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 205 1 do wn is motor plus minimum efficiency. Help me 2 fr om layman's terms. Is that the DOE -- 3 MS. WIDDER: Yep. 4 MR. POWERS: Okay. So could we say DOE 5 mo tor or something? 6 UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: DOE minimum? 7 MR. POWERS: DOE minimum or something? 8 MR. ROSENSTOCK: DOE full-load 9 ef ficiency. 10 MR. POWERS: Okay. Whatever the right 11 la yman -- just to help me. Okay. 12 And then the next one down is pump and 13 mo tor. What's the definition of that motor? 14 MS. WIDDER: 95 percent efficient. 15 MS. WILLIAMS: That's just an example, 16 th ough. 17 MR. HUBER: Is that premium? 18 MS. WIDDER: An example. It's an 19 ex ample. 20 MR. POWERS: Okay. Okay. So say -- 21 MS. WIDDER: It's a pump plus motor, 22 yo ur motor, whatever motor.

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 206 1 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Higher efficiency 2 mo tor. 3 MR. POWERS: Okay. So say 95 percent 4 ex ample motor or something so we know what that 5 me ans. 6 MS. WIDDER: Okay. 7 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Higher efficiency 8 mo tor. It's a higher efficiency motor than -- 9 MR. HUBER: Yeah, that's it. 10 MR. POWERS: But I think the factor she 11 ha s will get into the calculation later to know 12 wh at it is. That's all. Okay. 13 And then the pump motor control, what 14 va lues were given on that motor and that control? 15 MS. WIDDER: Same exact motor as in the 16 hi gher efficiency motor -- 17 MR. POWERS: Right. 18 MS. WIDDER: -- and the control is a VFD 19 in this case. 20 MR. POWERS: So you've picked a number 21 fo r that, I guess. 22 MS. WIDDER: Right.

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 207 1 MR. POWERS: Okay. 2 MS. WIDDER: So in essence -- 3 MR. POWERS: In that former you had 4 be fore, you had a nice set of numbers in there. 5 MS. WIDDER: Right. And so if you 6 wa nted more details, Chuck, the higher efficiency 7 mo tor and the controls, all those assumptions, 8 it 's exactly the same as what I presented this 9 mo rning. 10 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. 11 MR. POWERS: Well, we're seeing it the 12 sa me day, I'm just trying to -- 13 MS. WIDDER: Yeah. Yeah. No. Just if 14 yo u in reference want to go back. 15 MR. POWERS: So help me out from a 16 pr actical sense. So if Doug -- I'm going to use 17 Do ug again -- if Doug buys a bare pump from us, we 18 wo uld have to -- depending on what we end up 19 ag reeing on, the load, weighting, and all that, we 20 wo uld end up having to meet -- the best example is 21 Li ne 4, those numbers in red. If he buys a bare 22 pu mp, that's what we have to meet. And we haven't

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 208 1 ag reed on this yet, but I'm saying -- 2 MS. WIDDER: That's what we're 3 di scussing right now. 4 MS. WILLIAMS: So I want to clarify, 5 th ough, that what we've been proposing this whole 6 ti me is not Line 4, it's Line 5. Line 4 we just 7 ma de up right now because, you know, there was a 8 li ttle bit lack of clarity, but what we've been 9 pr oposing the whole time is that your scenario is 10 Li ne 5 where you test your bare pump and you add a 11 st andard motor calculation to it. 12 MR. POWERS: I have no problem. Okay. 13 So but I'm saying if there is a user out there 14 th at buys a bare pump in the world, which they do, 15 an d literally replacing one out there or whatever, 16 it would be cognizant of that first line by 17 de finition. 18 MS. WILLIAMS: No. No. 19 MS. WIDDER: It would be the cell I have 20 my cursor on right now. 21 UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: Line 5. 22 MS. WIDDER: Yeah.

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 209 1 MR. ADIN: Let me clarify something. 2 Fo r the purposes of complying with a standard, the 3 st andard would be based upon an assumption that it 4 us es the minimum efficiency motor, so the only 5 va riable there, if you're in fact using the 6 mi nimum efficiency motor, the only thing that 7 wo uld actually have to be improved to meet the 8 st andard is the pump, the bare pump. 9 MR. POWERS: But if the existing motor 10 is not a high efficiency motor -- 11 UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: It doesn't 12 ma tter. 13 MS. WILLIAMS: We don't care what the 14 ex isting motor is. 15 MR. HUBER: Because at that point you're 16 no t shipping it. It's what we sell -- right? -- 17 be fore it's shipped. 18 MS. WIDDER: It's what you sell. Yep. 19 MR. HUBER: I understand. I understand 20 it now. 21 MS. WIDDER: Okay. 22 MR. ADIN: Okay. Yeah.

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 210 1 MR. HUBER: It was just nomenclature 2 wi th me. 3 MS. WIDDER: Okay. Okay. 4 MR. ADIN: And just to make one -- Lucas 5 Ad in -- 6 MS. WIDDER: Maybe that will be better. 7 MS. WILLIAMS: (Off mike.) 8 MR. ADIN: Yeah. The bare pump thing is 9 ac tually slightly misleading because the way that 10 we 've constructed this metric, that would actually 11 as sume that you have a 100 percent efficient 12 dr iver. 13 MR. HUBER: Yeah, that's true. 14 MR. ADIN: Realistically it's not 15 ac curate. 16 MR. HUBER: I agree. 17 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Let's be a little 18 sy stematic about this. 19 Meg. 20 MS. WALTNER: Yeah. Well, I was just 21 go ing to sort of get at what Lucas was getting at 22 th ere, is that what we were looking at is the pump

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 211 1 al one is basically the shaft power -- right? -- 2 wi thout any sort of motor. And in order to look 3 at the bare pump on a sort of wire-to-water basis 4 in a way, we're just dividing that by a standard 5 mo tor to get this other rating value -- 6 MS. WIDDER: Exactly. 7 MS. WALTNER: -- which is what it would 8 be compared on. Okay. 9 MS. WIDDER: Yep. That's exactly in 10 es sence what we're doing. 11 MR. BROOKMAN: So did everybody get 12 th at, or should I have Meg repeat that? 13 (No audible response.) 14 MR. BROOKMAN: I think they got it. 15 Al. 16 MR. HUBER: What we're really 17 co nsidering here -- right? -- and what we proposed 18 is what we're calling a bare pump, which is a pump 19 an d an inefficient motor and a higher efficient 20 mo tor, and then over here using the load factor of 21 25 , 50, 75, and 100 for the control scheme, that 22 ce rtainly shows a much improvement on the control

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 212 1 si de. 2 MR. ECKMAN: Yeah, I -- 3 MR. HUBER: You might want to do the 4 in verse of these so that it -- 5 MR. ECKMAN: -- for simplicity -- 6 MR. BROOKMAN: Tom Eckman. 7 MR. ECKMAN: -- using the same motor 8 ef ficiency and only changing the VFD because we're 9 pi cking up two benefits there in that last line. 10 So just if that was the DOE minimum efficiency 11 mo tor plus the VFD, then we would see what the VFD 12 im pact was alone. 13 MR. HUBER: And I think that's what you 14 ou ght to do. 15 MR. ECKMAN: Yeah. I think -- so that 16 th ere is just one change going on at a time to 17 ke ep track of. 18 MS. WIDDER: Right. Okay. So the other 19 th ing -- so the reason I assumed a high-efficiency 20 mo tor in this case -- but that's a good point -- 21 is that in order to sell a pump with a VFD, it 22 al so must be sold with a motor. You would sort of

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 213 1

-- they're incremental. 2 MR. ECKMAN: Yeah. I was just trying to 3 is olate on the effect of the VFD. 4 MS. WIDDER: Oh, right. Yep. 5 MR. ECKMAN: I understand what would 6 ha ppen. 7 MS. WIDDER: Right. 8 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Steve Rosenstock. 9 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Steve Rosenstock, EEI. 10 Bu t it could be sold with a standard motor. 11 MS. WIDDER: Right. 12 MR. ROSENSTOCK: It can be easily sold 13 wi th a standard motor if that's what you want to 14 do . 15 MS. WIDDER: It can. It can. Right. 16 Ri ght. We are -- 17 MR. ROSENSTOCK: So that's another 18 de sign option that still would be I'll say under 19 th e baseline P -- you know, it would still meet 20 th e requirement. My thing, I'm getting back to the 21 DO E minimum efficiency motor, and again I still 22 ha ve to think back to -- you know, you're saying a

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 214 1 4- pole ODP and a certain RPM. Well, what if they 2 us e a different pole or what if they play around 3 th at table where there could be differences within 4 ea ch category? I should get the table, but 5 so metimes if you change the number of poles, there 6 ar e different minimum efficiency standards. 7 MS. WIDDER: Right. So this is -- 8 MR. ROSENSTOCK: They're slight, but, 9 yo u know, at the minimum, they could make a 10 di fference depending on the number of poles, and 11 th en especially if you change horsepower. Then 12 th e other thing, again, if you go to a higher 13 ho rsepower. Again, I'm trying to conceptualize 14 it . 15 MR. BROOKMAN: We're still trying to 16 gr asp the basics here. 17 MS. WIDDER: Right. 18 MR. BROOKMAN: We're not punching holes 19 fo r specifics yet, we're not. 20 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Too far ahead. Sorry. 21 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Paul Lin. 22 MR. LIN: I'm all set.

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 215 1 MR. BROOKMAN: You're all set. Okay. 2 Let's just let these gentlemen -- 3 Do you want to -- Al, do you and your 4 fo lks want to caucus? Do you need some time to 5 th ink this through? 6 MR. POWERS: We're not voting today, so 7 I' m okay. 8 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. 9 MR. POWERS: Because we have a lot of 10 ca lculations to do. Once we get the final sheets 11 to understand what -- 12 MR. BROOKMAN: Yeah. We're not voting 13 to day, however, Alison, and previously Sarah, were 14 tr ying to get some sense of, yeah, we think this 15 is okay so that they can do their analysis. 16 Al. 17 MR. HUBER: We discussed that amongst 18 ou rselves, Doug, and we think we can cut them 19 lo ose with this. If the government is okay and 20 th e NGOs are okay and everybody else is okay, we 21 do n't see any reason to -- but we're going to go 22 ba ck and have our people run through it, and we

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 216 1 wo uld like to have some of these screenshots or 2 so mething before we leave. 3 MR. BROOKMAN: We're clear. This is not 4 a decision. This is not like a binding decision 5 or anything like that, but this is a signal that 6 is going to allow the analysis to proceed. And 7 th en will someone restate clearly what you're okay 8 wi th? 9 Al, do you want to restate clearly or 10 sh ould I get one of these -- 11 (Laughter.) 12 MS. WILLIAMS: Can I state it clearly? 13 MR. BROOKMAN: Alison, you state it 14 cl early. 15 MS. WILLIAMS: Okay. 16 MR. BROOKMAN: Alison is going to state 17 cl early what we hope that all members present 18 th ink this is a sensible way to initiate the 19 an alysis. 20 MR. POWERS: Can I interrupt for one 21 se cond? 22 MR. BROOKMAN: Sure, Chuck.

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 217 1 MR. POWERS: Before lunch, Al made a 2 re commendation (off mike). 3 MR. BROOKMAN: Yeah. 4 MR. POWERS: 75, 100, and 110. 5 MR. BROOKMAN: Yeah. 6 MR. POWERS: Right? 7 MR. HUBER: For the pump and motor. 8 MS. WIDDER: Yep. 9 MR. POWERS: Pump and motor. 10 MR. HUBER: And the 25, 50, 75, 100 for 11 th e pump, motor, and control. 12 MS. WIDDER: Yep. 13 MR. POWERS: So why don't we eliminate 14 th e 50 to 110? 15 MR. HUBER: Yeah. 16 MR. POWERS: Just get rid of it? 17 MR. HUBER: It's not part of the 18 pr oposal and the rest of that. 19 MR. POWERS: And then somehow define 20 on ly numbers under the -- what I heard Alison say, 21 th e ones in yellow are the only ones that count 22 (o ff mike). Right?

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 218 1 MR. BROOKMAN: Hold on. 2 MS. WIDDER: I'm not going to delete 3 th em. Don't worry. I'm just going to turn them 4 wh ite. 5 MR. POWERS: I know, but I'm just trying 6 to understand what -- 7 MR. HUBER: Yeah, that's it. 8 MS. WILLIAMS: Does anybody else want to 9 lo ok at any of the numbers, or is everybody okay 10 wi th those? 11 MR. ROSENSTOCK: I would like to leave 12 th ose other numbers in. Steve Rosenstock, EEI. I 13 th ink those numbers should stay in for now. 14 MR. BROOKMAN: Let's leave the numbers 15 in , but let's just be clear. And I thought Alison 16 wa s going to restate what we thought, what we 17 ho pe, the working group would say, yep, in a 18 pr eliminary sense, this is okay for the analysis 19 to proceed. 20 Alison. 21 MS. WILLIAMS: I mean, I think Al pretty 22 mu ch just said it, but --

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 219 1 MR. BROOKMAN: Do you want to come up 2 he re and point since you have that? 3 MS. WILLIAMS: Yeah. So we'll just move 4 fo rward in the analysis with sort of the equation 5 co nstruct we've been showing, and with these 6 ye llow cells. So for pumps and pumps plus motors, 7 75 , 100, and 110, equal weighting. And for pumps 8 pl us motors plus controls, 20, 50, 75, and 100, 9 eq ual weighting. That is the pump manufacturers' 10 pr oposal. So I will just check and see if anyone 11 el se has concerns about that. 12 MR. BROOKMAN: Steve Rosenstock. 13 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Steve Rosenstock, EEI. 14 Ag ain, just looking at these numbers -- and, 15 ag ain, Sarah, thank you so much -- there is such a 16 hu ge difference on that pump plus higher 17 ef ficiency motor plus VFD, that number -- that 18 di fference is -- you know, it's an order of 19 ma gnitude. You go from 21 to 43. And again I 20 un derstand why, it's because of the thing of the 21 dr ive, but then it's not -- in my mind, it's not 22 ap ples to apples, you know, it's not -- you know,

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 220 1 yo u're saying here is one test condition and 2 he re's a relative efficiency at 75, 100, 110, and 3 th en, oh, you're adding one more adder onto the 4 pr oduct and we're going to do two more test 5 co nditions, and it's -- how do I say this? -- it's 6 no t -- you're not doing -- you're kind of saying, 7 we ll, the miles per gallon are going to be at 50 8 mi les an hour for this car and then 20 miles per 9 ho ur for this car. No, hold on a second here. 10 MS. WIDDER: Right. 11 MR. ECKMAN: Highway and city. That's 12 wh at we have here. 13 UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: Or you've 14 go t an accelerator in the car or not an 15 ac celerator. 16 (Laughter.) 17 UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: You're 18 ri ding 70 miles an hour on a straight line, and 19 I' m going start, stop, start, stop, start, stop? 20 It 's highway and city. They're different test 21 co nditions. One, we're talking about a variable 22 sp eed output here and one we're not, so they're

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 221 1 di fferent. 2 MR. BROOKMAN: Let's let Al. 3 Go ahead. 4 MR. HUBER: To help clarify this, the 5 on ly way you could do -- if you wanted a true 6 co mparison of the VFD type situation, you would 7 ha ve to run a test with the same motor and pump, 8 th rottle it to those conditions, take your 9 ho rsepowers, and then run it with a VFD without 10 th rottling it and take those. And you can do 11 th at, but I don't know that we want to do that 12 be cause I think that would be a pretty big burden. 13 MR. BROOKMAN: Greg, did you want in 14 he re? 15 MR. ECKMAN: Well, if people did -- 16 MR. HUBER: I mean, we could do that. 17 MR. ECKMAN: There is 21 in that line. 18 MR. HUBER: It would probably be a 21 in 19 th at line. 20 MR. ECKMAN: If they throttled it. 21 MR. HUBER: No, if they didn't throttle. 22 MR. ECKMAN: Yeah, but if they took a

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 222 1 no n- VFD and tried to -- 2 MR. HUBER: Oh, it would probably be the 3 40 -something or 50-something. 4 MR. BROOKMAN: So that was Al and Tom, 5 Al and Tom, Al and Tom. 6 (Laughter.) 7 MR. HUBER: Sorry. 8 MR. BROOKMAN: Now Greg. 9 MR. TOWSLEY: Greg Towsley, Grundfos. 10 Steve, it's just again the highway/city 11 mi leage thing, but where the change is going to 12 ha ppen when you start looking at apples-to-apples 13 is when you have a different efficiency pump in 14 th ere. Instead of 21.36, it might go up to 22.5, 15 an d now you have apples-to-apples and comparing 16 on e pump with a different efficiency and a drive 17 an d a motor versus another one with a different 18 ef ficiency. And it goes back to applications, is, 19 wh ere do you want to apply the drive versus not 20 ha ve a drive? There is going to be a one-off 21 ap plication that all you're going to want to do is 22 th at right column, and then there is the variable

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 223 1 fl ow application or variable pressure application, 2 yo u're going to want the drive. So it's 3 co mpletely different, city and highway. 4 UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: Yeah. 5 UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: Yeah. 6 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Right. Steve 7 Ro senstock, EEI. And I appreciate that, but this 8 do es spill over into the national analysis, and if 9 yo u're -- how do I say it? -- you're just dealing 10 wi th, let's say, hundreds or thousands or millions 11 of pumps and you're assuming all of them are at 25 12 pe rcent of BEP at some point versus the field 13 sa ying, well, it's only really 10 percent of them, 14 th en you get quite the distortion in your eventual 15 an alysis. 16 MR. BROOKMAN: Greg, follow on. 17 MR. TOWSLEY: Greg Towsley, Grundfos. I 18 be lieve the manufacturers included the approximate 19 nu mber of pumps that we ship with and without 20 dr ives that would determine in an economic 21 an alysis how much of each one gets used, I 22 be lieve. That's what you're talking about.

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 224 1 MS. WILLIAMS: Yeah. This is Alison. 2 I' ll just follow on. Right? Like we will have an 3 en ergy use analysis that will have different load 4 pr ofiles, and some of them will be assumed to be 5 fo llowed and some of them will be assumed to have 6 VF Ds, and so it will show up in the analysis. 7 MR. BROOKMAN: Lucas, do you want in 8 he re? 9 MR. ADIN: Well, maybe just to point out 10 th at at least as far as calculations like national 11 en ergy savings are concerned, you know, you're 12 co ncerned most about what -- how are these pumps 13 re ally operated in the field? And we can only 14 ki nd of roughly approximate that. I think, from 15 wh at I've heard, and I'm sure someone will correct 16 me if I'm wrong, at least for the VFD condition or 17 si tuation, it's more likely you would see a range 18 of operating conditions like that compared with a 19 no n-VFD type pump. So in theory, it should be 20 mo re representative of the way these would 21 ac tually be used, and so your calculations of 22 na tional energy use should be more representative.

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 225 1 Na tional energy savings, of course, would just be 2 ba seline compared to the standards case, and then 3 th ey're both using the same assumptions anyway. 4 MR. BROOKMAN: Louis, are you in this 5 co ntent stream? 6 MR. STARR: Um, no. 7 (Laughter.) 8 MR. STARR: That is something (off 9 mi ke). 10 MR. BROOKMAN: Yeah. Okay. Then Chuck 11 an d then Greg. 12 MR. POWERS: So, Sarah, help me so we 13 ca n get this data -- right? -- so we can go back, 14 li ke Al way saying and talk to our (inaudible) and 15 al l. In your formula -- and I haven't seen it 16 ye t, you may have shown it -- do you have this 17 cu rve built into these numbers? 18 MS. WIDDER: Not any of the ones you're 19 lo oking at right now. All of these are equal 20 we ighting, so there is no curve. 21 MR. POWERS: Okay. Right. But what I'm 22 tr ying to say is if you think the majority of the

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 226 1 we ighted value is at 60 percent, you know -- 2 MS. WIDDER: Well, that's not in here. 3 MR. POWERS: Okay. 4 MS. WIDDER: Not in here. 5 MR. POWERS: I know. I'm asking. But 6 we 've seen so many charts, I'm trying to 7 un derstand. So you've taken that out. Okay. 8 MR. BROOKMAN: Greg. 9 MR. CASE: The manufacturers also like 10 to request that the system curve that you guys use 11 do esn't go back to zero at zero flow, it uses 20 12 pe rcent of the static -- or of -- well, of the 13 st atic head of the system. 14 MS. WIDDER: Okay. 15 UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: The control. 16 MR. CASE: Or it's got 20 percent of the 17 BE P head value as the static head in that system 18 cu rve. 19 MS. WIDDER: Okay. 20 MR. CASE: Because not all systems are 21 fu lly closed loops. 22 MS. WIDDER: Yep.

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 227 1 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Let me see, Louis 2 an d then Paul. 3 MR. STARR: Well, I'm kind of surprised 4 ab out that last one because that sort of -- if you 5 ha ve a high static head, then a VFD is not always 6 go ing to make a lot of sense in the system, so I - 7

- 8 MR. CASE: It's only 20 percent. 9 MR. STARR: 20? 10 MR. CASE: So it's not a high static 11 he ad. 12 MR. STARR: It's not a lot? Okay. So 13 an yway, that was a side thing. 14 MR. BROOKMAN: Now back to Louis. 15 MR. STARR: One of the things that I 16 th ink we realize here is that we're sort of doing 17 a lot of work around to get some things. 18 Ul timately, what the best that would happen is to 19 ge t an MEI on the pumps and all pumps are 20 qu alified for an MEI, and then you would stick 21 th em into your other equations and get out an 22 en ergy usage that was representative. And so now

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 228 1 we 're adjusting -- in other words, the city and 2 hi ghway, as Tom has described it, but in reality, 3 I don't know that much of it is as high a 4 pe rcentage, we're basically saying the rating up 5 on the highway rating here of the higher BEP 6 fl ows, and it seems like we should maybe be using 7 so me lower points. 8 So it almost seems like if we could 9 co uple the efficiency of the pump from the next 10 th ing of the PER, that would be the best thing, 11 bu t I don't think we're going to be able to do 12 th at. So it seems that we're skewing the results 13 by not being able to decouple those two. 14 MS. WIDDER: Let me see if I can restate 15 yo ur concern just to make sure I understand it. 16 Yo ur concern is that you still want pump 17 pe rformance represented -- pump -- bare pump -- a 18 pu mp sold as a bare pump or a pump sold as a bare 19 pu mp with a motor, you want that represented at 20 th e 75, 100 percent, and 110 percent of BEP flow 21 lo ad conditions, which is what MEI is. 22 MR. STARR: For the efficiency, but then

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 229 1 th e actual loading would be of the 25 and 50 and 2 75 percent, for the loading of the pump. So you 3 wo uld have the efficiency as being the efficiency 4 th at gets fed into the calculation for the 5 ca lculation of the PER. That's what I was 6 th inking would be -- 7 MS. WIDDER: Perhaps we can have a 8 co nversation after this. I'm not totally 9 fo llowing you, but I'll follow up afterwards. 10 MR. BROOKMAN: Paul. 11 MR. LIN: Paul Lin with Regal. Can I 12 ge t a clarification on Slide 9? 13 MS. WIDDER: Yes. 14 MR. BROOKMAN: But before you move on, 15 le t's let -- hold on. Charlie, go ahead. 16 MR. CAPPELLINO: I have a little 17 di fferent discussion, so let him -- 18 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Go ahead then, 19 Pa ul. 20 MR. LIN: So on Slide 9, you have power, 21 mo tor, on the motor side it would be 60- 22 ho rsepower. Is this -- what is that power? Is it

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 230 1 a nameplate 60-horsepower? 2 MS. WIDDER: Nameplate. 3 MR. LIN: Okay. And then we go to Slide 4 13 . 5 MS. WIDDER: Is that this one? 6 MR. LIN: Yeah. And you've calculated 7 60 -horsepower. 8 MS. WIDDER: So not calculated. So this 9 is getting into for this bare pump example -- 10 we 're in the bare pump example right now -- and 11 th e first thing we did was determine our pump 12 pe rformance. We have pump -- in this construct, 13 we have pump shaft input power at the four load 14 po ints, and then because we're not selling this 15 ba re shaft pump with the motor in this case, we 16 do n't have a motor size. We could assume 17 an ything. 18 And so to ensure that everyone that's 19 se lling a specific size of pump is applying the 20 sa me motor size algorithm, choice, for example, if 21 a manufacturer were to rate this pump and then DOE 22 we re to similarly pull that pump and determine the

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 231 1 PE R rating, both the manufacturer and DOE would 2 as sume the same size motor as paired with that 3 ba re shaft pump for the purposes of calculating 4 th is PER. And so the calculation here for that 5 si zing algorithm is to take the measured pump 6 sh aft input power at 120 percent of BEP flow and 7 ro und up to the nearest size bin in the CFR 8 ta bles, which in this case was 60-horsepower. 9 MR. POWERS: Now, Sarah, this is a 10 qu estion. 11 Hold on a second, Paul. 12 So on a 75, 1-, and 110, I could get 13 th at right? No problem. But now if you go down 14 to 25 percent condition, and you've got a motor 15 th at not only is a little oversized, nothing 16 wr ong, it's a 50-horse versus now it's a 60, and 17 yo u go all the way back to the 25, you will have a 18 de gradation of the efficiency of that motor 19 si gnificantly. 20 MS. WIDDER: Right. You will. 21 MR. POWERS: And now you're a little 22 ov ersized, but now you're really going to be way

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 232 1 do wn where it doesn't want to run, and then you 2 th row it on a VFD, which should keep it at its 3 no rmal load factor if it was designed right and if 4 th e windings were made up to handle the heat when 5 yo u do a VFD, but -- 6 MS. WIDDER: Right. 7 MR. POWERS: But that would worry me, 8 th at's all. I'm just -- 9 MS. WIDDER: Right. And so that's 10 ex actly the reason we're not considering that in 11 th is case. 12 So, Paul, did you have anything else? 13 MR. LIN: You had it on the chart, the 14 25 percent. 15 MS. WIDDER: Only with the VFD. 16 MR. BROOKMAN: Charlie, you're next. 17 MR. LIN: Hold on a second. 18 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. 19 MR. LIN: Maybe I need to run through 20 th e calculation, but could you get into a 21 si tuation where on a bare pump basis you're 22 es timating 60-horsepower, but then once you

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 233 1 in clude a pump plus the motor and then you 2 ac tually had a physical motor horsepower, 3 na meplate horsepower, of 50-horsepower, then is 4 th at going to be a apples-to-apples comparison if 5 yo u're trying to compare, hey, I hade a bare pump 6 ef ficiency of this, and then because I have 7 un dersized my motor, I've improved my PER 8 es sentially? 9 MS. WIDDER: So the motors -- I mean, 10 it 's true that the motor size that would be used 11 fo r the pump and motor case will be essentially 12 th e job motor, whatever motor that pump is sold 13 in to the marketplace with, but that won't 14 in troduce variability because whatever pump and 15 mo tor combination the manufacturer is certifying 16 is the same pump and motor combination that DOE 17 wo uld test or a third-party lab would test. It's 18 al ways going to be the same pump and motor 19 co mbination. If you were significantly oversized 20 or undersized based on our assumption, that would 21 ch ange the comparison. Perhaps you would get more 22 or less credit for putting a more efficient motor

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 234 1 on . 2 There was a table that I did -- I don't 3 kn ow where my table went -- what I looked at, 4 wh at's the impact of different size motors? Well, 5 th is is just looking at loading and not really 6 ef ficiency. 7 UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: Right. 8 Ri ght. 9 MS. WIDDER: I could look at efficiency, 10 bu t, for example, if you did a 75 percent 11 ho rsepower motor on this same pump, your loading 12 on the motor would be between 40 and 67 percent as 13 op posed to the 60-horse case, where it was between 14 50 and 80 percent. And depending on how the 15 ef ficiency losses came out, it just wouldn't -- it 16 wo uld be the same -- it would be the same in both 17 ca ses. 18 MS. WILLIAMS: Let me -- sorry. 19 MS. WIDDER: Yeah. Do you want to try? 20 MS. WILLIAMS: We actually think there 21 mi ght be an issue with that, and there are some 22 po tential ways to resolve it, and one of them

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 235 1 co uld be that you rate with a certain size motor 2 ev en though -- you know, if you're selling it with 3 a premium undersized motor, you could potentially 4 ra te with a premium regularly sized motor. I 5 do n't know what the answer is. It is a good 6 po int. We might have to think about it. And we 7 do n't have the answer right now, but we have 8 de finitely written it down to consider. 9 MR. BROOKMAN: So let me just kind of 10 in terrupt. 11 Charlie, I know, Charlie, you're packing 12 up here, so -- 13 MR. CAPPELLINO: Yeah, I want to leave 14 in about 10 minutes. 15 MR. BROOKMAN: Yeah. 16 MR. CAPPELLINO: Charlie Cappellino. So 17 fr om a practical standpoint, what I keep going 18 th rough in my mind here is that we, as industry, 19 ar e going to have to meet the European MEI 20 st andards regardless. So that's basically going to 21 dr ive our businesses to hit certain MEI 22 re quirements, period. And I guess in our world,

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 236 1 ou r preference would be again alignment with the 2 ME I standards, would make certain practical 3 im plementation of this more readily done. 4 So the second point I wanted to make is 5 mo st of us sell our products in a modular fashion 6 wh ere you mix and match a bare pump with a motor 7 wi th a drive, so the practicality of saying, well, 8 lo ok, I'm only going to ever sell this pump or 9 th ese sizes of pumps with a premium efficiency 10 mo tor, it's really kind of, in my mind, it's kind 11 of a false expectation, because if you're in 12 ma nufacturing, you basically have to have all your 13 ba re pumps meet the minimum standard anyways, and 14 so if you kind of -- and Louis said it earlier, 15 yo u kind of want to -- you almost have to decouple 16 th e two to some extent and say, look, my bare pump 17 ha s to meet a certain MEI level, the Europeans 18 ha ve already dictated that, the timing is already 19 in place, we ought to just take advantage of the 20 fa ct that that's done and find a way to articulate 21 an advantage in the marketplace of using a VFD, 22 bu t trying to wrap that back into a regulation I

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 237 1 th ink is just complicating everything that we 2 re ally need to do here. I think we want to 3 ac complish both. 4 I mean, we have to hit the MEIs that the 5 EU put out there period, I mean, that's something 6 we 've got to do, and we have to figure out a way 7 to show the savings and the advantage of drives 8 an d better efficient motors, but I'm still trying 9 to figure out how the two really kind of connect 10 be cause it gets really messy because of the way 11 we 're set up. 12 MR. BROOKMAN: Alison? 13 MR. ADIN: Well, I was just going to say 14 th at I think what we put up here -- 15 MR. BROOKMAN: Lucas. 16 MR. ADIN: Thanks, Doug -- is frankly 17 th e best way we could think of to accomplish both 18 of those things at the same time because when we 19 ac tually do the analysis to set a standard, 20 ef fectively it will be on the basis of MEI -- 21 MR. CAPPELLINO: Right. 22 MR. ADIN: -- because we're making

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 238 1 as sumptions for everything else. So we'll 2 ac complish that part, and then this construct of a 3 me tric is to get at the other part. 4 MR. CAPPELLINO: I just want to 5 re inforce the point that at least my opinion is 6 th at offering a pump with a premium efficiency 7 mo tor to say, well, that's going to allow somebody 8 to have maybe a less efficient design in the 9 ma rketplace probably isn't going to happen. 10 Th at's not a practical business scenario. And so 11 yo u might want to take that out of the picture a 12 li ttle bit and say, "Well, what's the reality in 13 te rms of how this is going to be implemented, how 14 ma nufacturers are going to roll that out in the 15 ma rketplace?" take that out of the picture because 16 it 's probably not going to happen. 17 MS. WILLIAMS: Yeah. So this is Alison. 18 I think that's a good point, and that's not 19 so mething we're going to account for in our 20 an alyses, we're just going to account for improved 21 pu mp efficiency, and we could discuss what 22 sp illover things we think might happen, but that's

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 239 1 no t what we're going to go with. 2 And the other thing I just wanted to say 3 in response, too, is I think what maybe would be a 4 go od exercise for those of you concerned about how 5 ME I translates into PER is that when we sort of 6 ag ree on the general construct and load points and 7 wh atever, that you could actually do the exercise 8 of looking at your pump's MEI, translating the MEI 9 to PER, and see how you fare. And if we don't -- 10 Da n and I have looked at it a little, and there 11 ar e some -- you know, it's not one for one, some 12 pa ss, some fail, but it's not a huge -- we don't 13 se e it as a huge impact, but if it's something you 14 gu ys looked at and you were like, "Oh, well, I 15 lo ok pretty good under MEI, but for some reason 16 wh en it translates to PER, I look terrible," 17 th at's something that we could talk about. 18 And I just want to add that one of the 19 ot her sort of -- the big difference between MEI 20 an d PER is just that you have weights at different 21

-- okay, well, this is the old one. 22 (Laughter.)

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 240 1 MS. WILLIAMS: We have a little bit of 2 le ver in where we set the standard because you can 3

-- in addition to the weights of the different 4 lo ad points, the MEI goes into the pump efficiency 5 at BEP, and we are also setting target levels at 6 th e part-load, so we can also play with the target 7 le vels to get you something like closer to MEI. 8 So I don't have an answer right now, I just want 9 to say that it's something that might be worth 10 ex ploring, looking at the data, and see what it 11 lo oks like. 12 MR. BROOKMAN: Arnie, go ahead. 13 MR. SDANO: Arnie Sdano, Pentair. If we 14 co uld switch over back to Slide 16, Sarah, if 15 th at's possible. 16 MS. WIDDER: Mm-hmm. That's possible. 17 MR. SDANO: Yesterday, the statement was 18 ma de that a pump manufacturer is always going to 19 be nefit when he tests a product, including the 20 mo tor. And I've just got a comment on that, that 21 we frequently do string tests where we will put a 22 to rque meter in between the motor and the pump,

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 241 1 bu t we will measure the power input into the VFD, 2 an d, therefore, we know what happens to the VFD 3 an d the motor efficiency combined in comparison to 4 wh at the pump is seeing. 5 And so often I'm glad that we drew the 6 li ne through the upper limit, you know, to 7 em phasize the losses because the motor 8 ma nufacturer doesn't extract from their efficiency 9 ca lculations the seal losses, the bearing losses, 10 an d that creates some problems for us. I don't 11 kn ow what's going to happen on the VFD, but I 12 th ink for the most part, their efficiency rating 13 ri ght now is based on full speed/full load. 14 And so we see typically about a 2- 15 pe rcent loss that isn't being defined in the 16 cu rrent standards when we test a string test, that 17 it 's between the motor and the VFD, and we're 18 lo sing a substantial amount of efficiency, and we 19 en d up having to make it up on the pump end 20 be cause our users don't understand those extra 21 lo sses for thrust bearings and seals and other 22 th ings that are occurring that all the individual

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 242 1 co mponent standards don't address all the losses. 2 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Thank you. 3 Greg Case. 4 MR. CASE: Yeah, this is a question I 5 gu ess back to Alison. You said we could plug this 6 da ta into the PER. And we need to have a target 7 va lue for MEI to be able to do that. So is there 8 a value that you would want us to try to do this 9 at ? 10 MS. WILLIAMS: Yeah. I mean, so Dan and 11 I were talking about that -- right? -- because we 12 ha ve to set levels to look at in our analysis. So 13 if that's something you guys want to do right now, 14 we can talk about it. We were probably, without 15 fu rther input, going to do like 10, 25, 40, 55, 16 70 , and max tech. 17 MS. WIDDER: Some levels. 18 MS. WILLIAMS: We can choose whatever 19 le vels you guys want to look at. 20 MS. WIDDER: And I think the other point 21 re lative to that -- 22 MR. BROOKMAN: 10, 25, 40, 70 --

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 243 1 MS. WILLIAMS: 55. 2 MR. BROOKMAN: 55 and max tech. 3 MS. WIDDER: 70. 70. 4 MR. BROOKMAN: And max tech. 5 MS. WIDDER: Yep. The other point 6 re lative to that is to provide those numbers, we 7 ha ve to agree on what the construct is. 8 MS. WILLIAMS: Mm-hmm. 9 MS. WIDDER: Right. 10 (Laughter.) 11 MS. WIDDER: So if we could get there -- 12 MS. WILLIAMS: And I also want to point 13 ou t, Greg, if you're taking notes, that the other 14 th ing we have to decide in setting target levels 15 an d what these other ones are, Dan and I have 16 cu rrently calculated median percentages at each of 17 th ese points, but we can change them in you want 18 us to. 19 MS. WIDDER: I think let's have that 20 di scussion at a like next time. 21 MS. WILLIAMS: Yeah. I'm just throwing 22 it out for him, so --

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 244 1 MS. WIDDER: Okay. Right. 2 MS. WILLIAMS: But let's get this 3 re solved. Yeah. 4 (Laughter.) 5 MS. WIDDER: So, and I think at the last 6 me eting I started to do this and it took a lot 7 lo nger than I thought because of all of the 8 va riability that still existed around the metric. 9 So I started to make a spreadsheet that we can 10 se nd out to the group that you can plug in flow at 11 BE P and shaft input power or efficiency at BEP and 12 wh atever other load points we decide, and it will 13 ca lculate the PER for you in a number of different 14 pe rmutations. The reason it took me so long is 15 be cause there are still so many possible 16 pe rmutations out there, I would look up tables 17 ev erywhere. 18 So if we can minimize the number of 19 th ings we want to look at, I can send out that 20 sp readsheet and then pump manufacturers can put 21 th eir pump data in and you can look at how the PER 22 wo uld calculate from that using the template.

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 245 1 MR. BROOKMAN: Greg. 2 MR. CASE: I think that would be great. 3 So I don't have to frantically go back and trace 4 ev erything through a spreadsheet, could we get the 5 fo rmulas used for each one of those? 6 MS. WIDDER: Yeah. I'll get -- 7 MR. CASE: I mean, there is going to 8 ha ve to be a guide document with it. 9 MS. WIDDER: Yeah, there is actually an 10 in struction sheet on the front with the 11 ca lculations, and it's -- 12 MR. CASE: Okay. All right. 13 MS. WIDDER: Yeah. I'm with you. 14 MR. BROOKMAN: Steve Rosenstock. 15 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Steve Rosenstock, EEI. 16 I know we're kind of switching back from the 17 pr esentation to the spreadsheet here. Would there 18 be a way -- I know we've just been using the 60- 19 ho rsepower -- would there be a way to kind of show 20 th ese numbers for I'll just say a smaller pump? 21 Ag ain, I'm just going to throw a number out. 22 Yo u're going from -- and you just show this for a

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 246 1 7. 5-horsepower motor and then a 10-horsepower 2 mo tor for the same -- 3 MS. WIDDER: Yes. So I -- 4 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Because I'm really 5 cu rious to see, suppose, well, it only costs me 20 6 bu cks to go to a 10-horsepower motor versus $200 7 fo r the drive, I just throw in an oversized motor, 8 bo om, I'm done. I just want to see if that -- 9 wo uld that be -- is that -- could that be one of 10 th e ultimate consequences? 11 MS. WIDDER: Right. So I'm with you, 12 an d at the next meeting, I would love to bring 13 ex ample calculations for a few other sizes of 14 pu mps, or we could look at how it looked for a 15 co uple different pumps, but I didn't do that this 16 ti me because we need to first agree on a couple 17 ot her more fundamental things. Like we can agree 18 on this no denominator or maybe even just no 19 de nominator and hydraulic power and then the 20 we ightings that we have highlighted in blue up 21 he re. Then I can do that for a lot more pumps. 22 Yo u know, it's just you get an exponentially

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 247 1 gr owing number of calculations you have to do. 2 MR. ROSENSTOCK: And another thing again 3

-- Steve Rosenstock, EEI -- you know, again we're 4 ta lking about a minimum efficiency motor, and 5 ag ain, just because I'm involved with the motor 6 ru lemakings, it's a matter of you pick the motor, 7 yo u know, it's 93.6, but in that open drip proof, 8 th at horsepower range, it could range from 93.4 to 9 93 .8, for example. And if there is -- especially 10 fo r the smaller motors, what if you're going with 11 a different -- you know, I don't know why you 12 wo uld go with a TEFC motor; that might have 13 an other different standard; efficiency at that 14 ho rsepower might be different as well. And then, 15 Go d forbid, but suppose you were going to use a 16 no n- regulated motor for whatever reason for 17 wh atever application, then what do you do? 18 I mean, I'm just trying to think this 19 ou t down the road here in terms of what if there 20 ar e these other possibilities that we didn't think 21 of necessarily? I'm trying to think that -- 22 MR. BROOKMAN: Greg Case.

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 248 1 MR. CASE: On the non-regulated motor, 2 th at spurred a thought in my head. On our 3 su bmersibles, we have non-regulated motors, so we 4 wo uld have a little trouble with our motor-pump 5 co nstruct here. 6 MS. WIDDER: Right. So that was the 7 re ason that we have also discussed a testing 8 op tion or maybe a full wire-to-water test being 9 re quired for some classes of pumps as opposed to a 10 ca lculation. So the potential back to -- there's 11 a slide somewhere -- the option exists that we 12 co uld allow testing or calculations for all 13 ca tegories of pumps, or we could only have 14 ca lculation for some categories of pumps, some 15 eq uipment classes, some types, end suction, free16 mo unted, or whatever, and then only wire-to-water 17 te sting for some other types of pumps. These are 18 al l options. 19 MR. ADIN: Let me actually make a 20 cl arification on that just really quick. 21 MS. WIDDER: Yeah. 22 MR. BROOKMAN: Lucas Adin.

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 249 1 MR. ADIN: So for any one of these 2 ca ses, we won't have one where there is only a 3 ca lculation and that's the only way to do it. We 4 al ways provide a test, so -- 5 MR. CASE: Well, and that makes sense 6 th ere because you're not going to be able to 7 de couple the two of them really. So in that 8 si tuation I brought up, that makes sense, so -- 9 MS. WIDDER: Mm-hmm. 10 MR. BROOKMAN: Paul Lin, are you all 11 se t? 12 (No audible response.) 13 MR. BROOKMAN: Yes, Meg. 14 MS. WALTNER: Greg, I have a follow-up 15 qu estion for you. So for the vertical turbine 16 su bmersible category, are all of those pumps sold 17 wi th motors that are submersible? 18 MR. CASE: I'll defer to the people who 19 ma ke them, but I believe so. 20 MR. BROOKMAN: Greg? 21 MR. TOWSLEY: Greg Towsley, Grundfos. 22 Re peat it one more time, Meg?

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 250 1 MS. WALTNER: Whether all of the VSO, 2 th e vertical turbine submersible pumps, are sold 3 wi th motors, with submersible motors, and agree 4 th at -- 5 MR. TOWSLEY: (Off mike.) 6 MS. WALTNER: Yeah. 7 MR. TOWSLEY: It's like anything. The 8 mo tor could be okay and the weld pump could become 9 da maged. 10 MR. BROOKMAN: Greg, get that closer to 11 yo u, please. 12 MR. TOWSLEY: It may be a matter of just 13 re placing the pump end or repairing the pump or 14 th e pump end. So it's possible that it can go 15 ou t, but all of them are -- they all have to be 16 te sted with it. 17 MR. CASE: I was going to say, as a new 18 sa le, not replacement parts, they're all going out 19 wi th a motor; right? 20 MR. TOWSLEY: We don't know. 21 MR. BROOKMAN: So that was Greg and then 22 ba ck to Greg. That was Greg. And now to Arnie.

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 251 1 MR. SDANO: Arnie Sdano, Pentair. I 2 wo uld say that plus 95 percent will be shipped 3 wi th the motor, but there are the odd 4 ci rcumstances where customers on larger ones will 5 bu y their own motor. But I should point out also 6 th at the current draft of 40.6 mandates that if 7 yo u're testing for certification of pump 8 ef ficiency, you have to test that submersible 9 ve rtical turbine pump with a calibrated 10 su bmersible motor. 11 MR. BROOKMAN: Mark Handzel. 12 MR. HANDZEL: I'm not sure if I 13 un derstood your question. I thought you were 14 as king if those are sold with non-NEMA, non15 re gulated motors. Was that your question? 16 MS. WALTNER: That's sort of what I was 17 ge tting at. I asked whether they were sold with 18 mo tors period. 19 MR. HANDZEL: Okay. So, I mean, like a 20 lo t of stuff in that category we don't necessarily 21 sh ip it with a motor, we sell it to a distributor, 22 an d he buys all the motors, and then he can pick

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 252 1 an d choose which one he puts on it. Okay? So a 2 mo tor has to be with it. We can certainly do a 3 wi re-to-water test, as Arnie just explained, with 4 a calibrated motor. Okay? All right? And that's 5

-- 6 MS. WALTNER: Okay. And are they 7 ge nerally being paired with non-NEMA motors? 8 MR. HANDZEL: They're non-NEMA motors 9 ty pically because we make them. Okay? They're 10 ou r motors. And again, there are going to be some 11 ex ceptions. I can't speak for everybody. Like in 12 ou r case -- 13 MS. WILLIAMS: So in general, 14 su bmersible motors are not a covered DOE product. 15 Ye ah. 16 MR. BROOKMAN: Yeah. Chuck. 17 MR. POWERS: And to further that, there 18 ar e, if I can get this right, there are more 19 su bmersible pump wet end manufacturers than there 20 ar e motor guys. Okay? So that means several of us 21 al so act as OEMs for motors that sell to other 22 pu mp guys. Okay? Now, in the world out there of

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 253 1 su bmersibles, generally speaking, the pump will 2 ha ve problems before the motor does. There's a 3 lo t of them that come out of the hole and they put 4 a new pump in with the same motor, but, you know, 5 it just depends on the application and what goes 6 on . Right? 7 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Thank you. Now, I 8 th ought before this last exchange, that Sarah and 9 Al ison were working their way toward some other 10 it ems they wish to close in on and resolve. 11 MS. WILLIAMS: And I should note that we 12 on ly have an hour left, so if we can focus on 13 re solving those items, that would be fantastic. 14 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. So which items are 15 th ey, Alison? 16 MS. WIDDER: So the items are, basically 17 wh at construct of metric do we want to move 18 fo rward with for our analysis? And I am just 19 go ing to hide everything else and say -- and ask a 20 qu estion of the committee -- I mean, if we can 21 mo ve forward with our analysis with 75, 100, and 22 11 0 percent of BEP flow and equal weighting for no

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 254 1 de nominator -- with no denominator for the pump 2 an d motor case, and then changing -- oh, that's 3 no t what I wanted, there we go -- changing the 4 lo ad points to 25 percent, 50 percent, 75 percent, 5 an d 100 percent of BEP flow and equal weighting 6 fo r the case where a bare pump is sold with 7 co ntrols, which was the manufacturers' suggestion. 8 An d I just made the assumption that we're moving 9 fo rward with no denominator because we've been 10 ta lking about that for a long time. The other 11 op tions we had on here were a number of different 12 de nominators and the inverse of this, which makes 13 hi gher better. 14 MR. BROOKMAN: Hang on. 15 Lucas? 16 MR. ADIN: Well, this is actually just a 17 ge neral question for my own understanding, not to 18 qu estion the weighting points that we've been 19 ta lking about, but I was just wondering why you 20 wo uldn't do the VFD case at 110. Is there a 21 pa rticular reason to exclude that rating point in 22 th at case?

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 255 1 UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: I was 2 th inking that same thing. 3 MR. BROOKMAN: Al Huber. Oh, Greg 4 To wsley. 5 MR. TOWSLEY: Greg Towsley, Grundfos. 6 Si mply, 25, 50, 75, and 100 are the four points in 7 th e EU EEI index that they're looking at, is where 8 th ose numbers came from. 9 MS. WIDDER: Right. The other thing is 10 if you include the 110 point, it -- with the 25 11 an d 50, it improves the rating for the VFD case, 12 an d if you're equally weighting them, 110, you 13 wi ll have no benefit from the VFD. There is no 14 ov erspeeding, you're just on the pump curve. So 15 no w you have two points on the pump curve and 16 th ree that are dropping down or two that are 17 dr opping down, so you're getting a little bit less 18 cr edit, but essentially you could do it. 19 MR. ADIN: It just doesn't add any 20 pa rticular value. 21 MS. WIDDER: It doesn't add any value 22 fo r the VFD.

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 256 1 MR. ADIN: Right. That's helpful. 2 Th ank you. 3 MR. BROOKMAN: Louis Starr. 4 MR. STARR: So, you know, the number 5 th at you whited out kind of just went with what 6 Lu cas was saying, was 43 I believe was the magic 7 nu mber when you whited it out. So you do see a 8 be nefit, it's just -- you know, it's probably not 9 re alistic to think if you had a VFD, you're going 10 ru n at those points; right? 11 MS. WIDDER: Right. 12 MR. STARR: What it does do is it allows 13 th e PER metric to mean the same thing across all 14 ca tegories of various pumps. So that's the 15 ad vantage to it. So it's being rated at points 16 th at maybe aren't so great in the real world, but 17 in the reality, you now have a metric that carries 18 ac ross all three of them. 19 MS. WIDDER: Right. Which is really 20 wh at we were thinking of with the 50, 75, 100, and 21 11 0, but equivalently -- is equivalently true of 22 th e 25 to 100 case. It's just very actually not

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 257 1 po ssible to test all pumps at 25 percent of BEP 2 fl ow throttling. 3 MS. MAUER: This is Joanna. I think 4 wh at Louis was suggesting was actually to do the 5 mi ddle column for all three. 6 MS. WIDDER: Oh, the middle column for 7 al l three. There you go. So -- 8 UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: Yeah, that 9 th ing. 10 MS. WIDDER: So then you just wouldn't 11 ca pture the same amount of benefit, which would -- 12 yo u know, that's fine, you're still capturing some 13 be nefit. 14 MR. STARR: You know, essentially if you 15 th ink about it, what you're really doing the other 16 wa y is an MEI and an EEI with the stuff you have 17 in yellow. That's essentially what it is. 18 MS. WIDDER: Yep. 19 MR. STARR: And so even though your 20 me tric says PER, it's really -- you've just 21 ca ptured two things in one metric -- 22 MS. WIDDER: PER equals MEI, not times

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 258 1 it self. This is our mathematical manipulation of 2 ME I, yeah. 3 MR. STARR: For two classes of things, 4 it 's using an MEI, and for the third class, it's 5 us ing an EEI essentially, or a version of EEI. 6 MS. WIDDER: Mm-hmm. 7 MR. STARR: So I would rather just have 8 it all be PER or, you know, using the same metric 9 ac ross it. 10 MS. WIDDER: Right. 11 MR. BROOKMAN: I'm looking -- Al. 12 MS. WIDDER: Yeah. And I think that's 13 wh at Steve was trying to get at earlier. 14 MR. HUBER: You know, it makes life 15 si mple, and I don't have a problem, philosophical 16 pr oblem, with it except -- and I've got to tell 17 yo u, I took a real beating from my European 18 co lleagues in our last meeting because we were so 19 fa r deviating from what they were doing, it was 20 ca using them a lot of grief, and they were upset. 21 If it doesn't cause DOE problems, and it does do 22 so mething for you, is you're trying to influence

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 259 1 pe ople that using VFDs is the way to go in a lot 2 of cases, and it's just a number. I mean, we know 3 it 's just a number. 4 That's the thing we've got to remember, 5 it 's just a number, because, you know, we don't 6 kn ow exactly where it's going to operate, we don't 7 kn ow a lot of things, it's just a number for 8 so mebody to look at and say, "Yeah, I can get some 9 ad vantage." Yeah, it looks like a lot of 10 ad vantage. One suggestion is don't use the higher 11 ho rsepower efficiency motor on that line, and it 12 wi ll drive it up a little bit more. 13 MR. STARR: Well, one thing I was hoping 14 is that even though it's just a number, Al, they 15 mi ght be able to change it into something that 16 ac tually means something, like if they normalize 17 it somehow, they normalize those numbers somehow 18 th at capture something, maybe it could be an 19 ef ficiency somewhere between zero and 1, and you 20 wo uld get a number out of it, and then it could be 21 us ed as an actual input to something else, utility 22 pr ograms, and actually mean something to someone.

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 260 1 MR. BROOKMAN: That was Louis. Now back 2 to Al. 3 MR. HUBER: Well, if you try to do that 4 an d you do that just with the numbers that you 5 ha ve up there and you're only changing it to 43, 6 th at's not representative either because if you 7 lo ok at a throttle case, and we have, you look at 8 a throttle case versus a VFD case, it's like 40, 9 50 percent. So that's pretty much what that 10 sh ows. 11 MR. STARR: I see. 12 MS. WIDDER: Right. Which is -- 13 MR. HUBER: So that's what you're really 14 do ing. And I don't know how we're going to 15 ex plain this to the consumer, but what that really 16 me ans is that you're not throttling the pump 17 an ymore, burning off energy with a valve, you're 18 us ing a VFD and not burning up energy that's not 19 be ing used. So I don't know how you communicate 20 th at, Louis. I know your problem, and I have the 21 sa me problem, but I don't know we do it. We're 22 tr ying to do it within a framework of regulation,

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 261 1 an d this is our suggestion. 2 MR. STARR: I see now what you're doing, 3 Al , and I guess that makes sense in terms of the 4 be st -- it's kind of like a best case patch. It's 5 li ke, well, in reality, what is the real field 6 co ndition? Well, it would most likely be closer 7 to 21-horsepower, let's capture a metric that kind 8 of relates to somewhere in the real world even 9 th ough you may not actually be able to use that 10 nu mber across many kinds of classes of equipment. 11 So maybe that's fine. 12 MR. BROOKMAN: I'm going to keep asking 13 us to return to this construct of the metric and 14 se e what you think, see whether what's on the 15 bo ard is a usable configuration. 16 Steve. 17 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Steve Rosenstock, EEI. 18 Wi th all due respect, I think it does help to have 19 a denominator in there. I know you just deleted 20 th at to make the -- you know -- 21 MS. WIDDER: I didn't delete them. I 22 ca n bring them back.

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 262 1 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Okay. I think there is 2

-- 3 MR. BROOKMAN: For simplicity. 4 MR. ROSENSTOCK: What? 5 MR. BROOKMAN: For simplicity. 6 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Well, not necessarily 7 fo r simplicity because it depends on which 8 de nominator sometimes, but in terms of I'll say a 9 nu mber -- they're not up back yet -- 10 MS. WILLIAMS: Can I just add, is it 11 po ssible for us to nail down the load points, the 12 we ights, and the construct without a denominator 13 be fore going into the denominator? 14 MS. WIDDER: One at a time maybe? 15 MS. WILLIAMS: Just because if we add a 16 de nominator later, it doesn't change the results 17 of our analysis. I know it's important for 18 co mmunicating with the customer or whatever, so I 19 do want to go over it, but I just want to make 20 su re that first we nail down what we absolutely 21 ne ed to do the analysis for next week. Is that 22 so mething we can do?

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 263 1 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Steve Rosenstock, EEI. 2 I don't mind that, but again in our opening 3 se ntence, it was like, well, we're just going to - 4 - well, since we're just kind of -- she just took 5 of f everything except the no denominator case, so 6 I just wanted -- 7 MS. WIDDER: How about this? Next week 8 or next meeting. 9 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Yeah. Yeah. 10 11 MS. WIDDER: How's that? 12 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. But so let's 13 re turn to load points and weighting. And at these 14 lo ad points, aren't they what -- for MEI, aren't 15 th ey what Al was suggesting? 16 MS. WIDDER: They are. 17 MR. BROOKMAN: These load points for MEI 18 ar e what Al was suggesting. So that ought to be 19 no n- controversial for you all; right? 20 MR. HUBER: I just checked it, and it's 21 no t. 22 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. But let me just

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 264 1 ch eck on -- I'm looking over -- I'm looking to the 2 en ergy efficiency advocates side of the table. 3 UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: We're 4 ca ucusing. 5 MR. BROOKMAN: Are you caucusing? 6 MS. WILLIAMS: Do you need a caucus? 7 MS. WIDDER: Maybe we should just take a 8 br eak and caucus. 9 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. 10 MS. WIDDER: Because isn't that what 11 we 're doing anyways? 12 (Laughter.) 13 MR. BROOKMAN: But let's just do this, 14 le t's -- but then restate. We're looking to 15 co nfirm hopefully what's on the board here for the 16 lo ad points and also for the weighting scheme, 17 wh ich is equal at this point; right? 18 MS. WIDDER: Yes, equal weighting. 19 MR. BROOKMAN: Yes. So let's break for 20 10 minutes and see where we are. Okay? 21 (Break.) 22 MR. BROOKMAN: Let's resume. Are you

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 265 1 al l set? 2 So before the break, I am pretty sure we 3 co nfirmed that the manufacturers caucus, since 4 th is was your original proposal, was good with 5 th ose load points up there on the screen and also 6 eq ual weighting. 7 And now I'm looking over to the energy 8 ef ficiency advocates caucus, and would one of you 9 re port based on that? And use the microphone. 10 Tom Eckman. 11 MR. ECKMAN: We're in agreement with the 12 we ightings in Columns D and E for those two. 13 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. So that's 14 co nsistent with your thinking, right, Sarah? 15 MS. WIDDER: Yep. 16 MR. BROOKMAN: The way he stated that, 17 th at's correct. 18 MS. WIDDER: Yep. So basically the 19 ye llow highlighted cells -- 20 MR. BROOKMAN: Yeah. 21 MS. WIDDER: -- is what we'll move 22 fo rward with our analysis on for this time.

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 266 1 MR. BROOKMAN: And just to confirm, this 2 is preliminary, this is not a final vote. And I 3 ex pect the manufacturers are going to go back and 4 do their calculations and others perhaps will as 5 we ll, but just enough to permit the analysis to 6 pr oceed. 7 Okay. So then what additional should we 8 tr y and sort through right now? 9 MS. WIDDER: I don't think we really 10 ha ve time to get into anything else, to be honest 11 wi th you. I mean, we only have 45 minutes. We 12 co uld talk a little -- I don't really want to 13 st art the denominator thing until next time. 14 MR. BROOKMAN: You had three or four at 15 le ast different variations on denominators. 16 MS. WIDDER: I did. I have several. 17 MR. BROOKMAN: Yeah. 18 MS. WIDDER: So that is going to take 19 so me time. Does anyone else have anything? 20 Yes? 21 MR. BROOKMAN: Tom Eckman. 22 MR. ECKMAN: I think as we approach the

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 267 1 de nominator gingerly, having some normalization of 2 th is that would give people an indication of 3 ma gnitudes that, you know -- 4 MS. WIDDER: Mean something. 5 MR. ECKMAN: -- that we were just 6 ta lking about, and have that discussion sort of 7 co njointly because the denominator that you use 8 mi ght affect your ability to normalize certain 9 th ings in certain ways, and I think maybe thinking 10 ab out that as a way to communicate how efficient 11 we 're talking about and whether there is a big 12 ef ficiency difference or a little efficiency 13 di fference -- 14 MS. WIDDER: Right. 15 MR. ECKMAN: -- rather than just 16 mu ltiply times 1,000 or divide by 1 -- 17 MS. WIDDER: Right. 18 MR. ECKMAN: -- that would be the right 19 th ing to do. 20 MR. BROOKMAN: Louis and then to Meg. 21 MR. STARR: So the other thing is, is I 22 th ink the ability for that number to be somewhere

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 268 1 be tween zero and 1 would be helpful because the 2 PE R number now has lost some of its meaning other 3 th an it's just a number. So at least kind of 4 be ing able to rank order options and being between 5 ze ro and one I think would be helpful. 6 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Meg. 7 MS. WALTNER: (Off mike.) 8 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Arnie, please. 9 Mi crophone. 10 MR. SDANO: Arnie Sdano, Pentair. Given 11 wh at we've agreed to here on a preliminary basis, 12 I know, Sarah, we've been tasking you on multiple 13 th ings all day long here, but if we would go back 14 to the load curve and we would adjust to two 15 di fferent load curves, one reflecting Column A and 16 on e reflecting Column B -- I know they're not A 17 an d B, but anyway, I think that might be 18 in teresting to look at because we know there is 19 mo re than one type of load curve that's out there, 20 an d frequently the kind of load curves that you 21 wo uld not want to have on variable speed, you 22 kn ow, it's something we work with customers

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 269 1 cl osely to keep them operating almost 100 percent 2 of the time within the preferred operating region, 3 yo u know, kind of reflective of what's there, and 4 so it would be interesting to take that data and 5 co nvert it back to justify the weighting to see 6 wh at that load curve would look like. 7 MS. WIDDER: You mean the weightings -- 8 MR. BROOKMAN: The (off mike) shaped 9 cu rve. 10 MS. WIDDER: Yes, instead of -- yep, we 11 ca n do that. We'll look at the weightings. Yep. 12 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Meg? Oh, wait. 13 Go ahead, Chuck. 14 MR. POWERS: Two other topics. Does it 15 ma ke sense that we could think about instead of 16 ca lling it Lot 11, something like HI whatever? I 17 th ink we should come up -- so that at this point 18 fo rward we use something that we can put our stamp 19 on ; right? And somebody said at lunch, somebody 20 sa id call it -- and I really don't care, but 21 so mebody called it HI -- 22 MR. HANDZEL: Group 1.

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 270 1 MR. POWERS: -- Group 1 or HI something, 2 be cause we're going to have, if I understand 3 ri ght, we're going to have what we've agreed upon, 4 wh ich is the Lot 11 right now, but then I think 5 ci rculators was the next one; right? And we could 6 ca ll these something. So HI whatever, and it 7 li nes up. It doesn't matter and -- 8 MR. ADIN: I was going to make a 9 su ggestion on that. 10 MR. BROOKMAN: Yes, sir. 11 MR. ADIN: We've already agreed on 12 wh at's in for this phase of the rulemaking. We 13 co uld just call it the Phase 1 Scope or something 14 li ke that, because that's a group of pumps that 15 we 've taken a vote on. 16 MR. BROOKMAN: No problem. 17 MR. POWERS: So that way it gets 18 pu blished that way. That's fine. 19 MR. ADIN: Yeah. 20 MR. POWERS: Would it make sense, 21 th ough, to be HI Phase 1? 22 UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: (Off mike.)

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 271 1 (Laughter.) 2 UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: (Off mike) 3 NG O (off mike). 4 MR. POWERS: NGO is fine, too. Okay. 5 Th e second question -- 6 MR. HANDZEL: So do we need to vote on 7 th at, though? 8 (Laughter.) 9 MR. HANDZEL: Just to make it happen. 10 Ok ay? Because we don't want to talk about Lot 11 11 an ymore. Okay? 12 MR. BROOKMAN: Well, I'm not sure we 13 ne eded to vote on it, I think we just adopt that 14 as a convention. 15 MR. HANDZEL: That's fine, as long as 16 we 're agreeable to do that. 17 MR. BROOKMAN: Phase 1 Scope. 18 MR. HANDZEL: Okay. 19 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. 20 MR. POWERS: And then the second 21 qu estion is -- and it's been brought up several 22 ti mes, because of the MEI, because we're trying to

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 272 1 lo ok at the extended line of products here that 2 Sa rah has done a great job with, instead of 3 ca lling it PER, pump -- right? -- because there 4 ar e a lot of variations, Greg brought up a point 5 at lunch, and he called the EPER -- just bear with 6 me -- it was Extended Product Efficiency Rating 7 in stead of Pump, because you do get involved in 8 VF Ds, you do get involved in other drives, and so 9 it 's the extended products. 10 UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: Label all 11 th ose together or something. 12 MR. BROOKMAN: Right. I guess that's 13 so mething to consider. We have plenty of time to 14 co ntinue to consider what the acronym is. 15 UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: Okay. 16 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay? 17 Steve Rosenstock. 18 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Steve Rosenstock, EEI. 19 Th is is just one of the clarification questions on 20 Sl ide 32. This is when you're doing things with 21 th e pump and the motor and the controls -- 22 MS. WIDDER: Yep.

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 273 1 MR. ROSENSTOCK: -- back on your 2 pr esentation. Again, I just wanted clarification 3 on that formula, on this version of the PER 4 fo rmula. 5 MS. WIDDER: This. Yep. 6 MR. ROSENSTOCK: The efficiency, I think 7 it 's 8 or whatever, and drive slash -- are you 8 sa ying that's the measured efficiency or I'll say 9 th e loss of the drive and the motor at those load 10 po ints or just the drive? 11 MS. WIDDER: The motor and the -- or the 12 dr ive and the controls. 13 MR. ROSENSTOCK: I'm sorry, you're 14 ri ght. I'm sorry, the motor and -- 15 MS. WIDDER: The motor and drive. Yep. 16 MR. ROSENSTOCK: And the controls. The 17 dr iver and the controls. 18 MS. WIDDER: Driving and controls. 19 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Again, Steve 20 Ro senstock, EEI. I was just surprised -- now, 21 ag ain, I know we're using the 60-horsepower 22 ex ample, but I was just surprised where it said 56

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 274 1 pe rcent speed, that it was -- that speed is across 2 th e top; right? 3 MS. WIDDER: Speed is down the row. 4 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Oh, speed is down the 5 ro w at -- okay, so at 75 percent speed down the 6 ro w, you're at 93 percent efficiency, and I'm just 7 th inking for that 60-horsepower motor, again, that 8 th e motor is about still probably like -- okay, if 9 it 's 93 percent efficient, that motor is still 10 93 .6 percent efficient, or maybe 93.4, that the 11 re st of that -- the other .4 percent is from the 12 co ntrol? Is that -- again, I'm just trying to get 13 th e combination in my mind here. 14 MS. WIDDER: Yeah. This was meant to be 15 il lustrative. Certainly, I need to do a little 16 mo re research on what is representative numbers 17 fo r this hypothetical motor drive data. It is 18 ju st representative. 19 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Because -- Steve 20 Ro senstock, EEI -- the reason, you had a previous 21 sl ide that showed a control efficiency of 96 22 pe rcent, so I started getting confused in terms of

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 275 1 ho w the numbers were all meshing together. So 2 th at's all. 3 MS. WIDDER: Right. Comparing, right. 4 Th at's a good point. 5 MR. ROSENSTOCK: So, again that -- again 6

-- 7 MS. WIDDER: Yep. We'll make sure that 8 th at's more consistent. 9 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Okay. Thank you very 10 mu ch. Appreciate it. 11 MR. BROOKMAN: Al Huber. 12 MR. HUBER: Sarah, so that we can be 13 pr epared adequately for the next meeting, when do 14 yo u think you could possibly get this spreadsheet 15 to us so that we can run it, have NEMA-BIS run all 16 th ese for us? 17 MS. WIDDER: I'm going to -- Lucas, do 18 yo u want to have any input on this? I'm going to 19 tr y to get it -- I would like to review it in our 20 te am to make sure it's accurate, but probably next 21 we ek, beginning of next week, would be my goal. 22 MR. HUBER: Okay. Are you going to --

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 276 1 yo u put up some figures there for MEI of 10, 25 -- 2 MR. BROOKMAN: 10, 25, 40, 55, 70, and 3 ma x tech. 4 MR. HUBER: Well, you know, we're not 5 go ing to eliminate 100 percent of the industry, so 6

-- 7 (Laughter.) 8 MS. WILLIAMS: We're just required by 9 la w to look at max tech. 10 MR. HUBER: We hope you're not, but what 11 we 're saying is we want to run exactly what you're 12 go ing to run. So is that what you're going to 13 ru n? 14 MS. WILLIAMS: Yeah. I think that Dan 15 an d I might consult, like we have to figure out 16 wh at we're going to use for max tech. I mean -- 17 MR. HUBER: I'm not worried about max 18 te ch. 19 MS. WILLIAMS: Okay. So, I mean, we can 20 pl an -- so here's what I'm going to say. Once we 21 ge t the data, we will calculate the C value for 22 th ose MEI levels. We will -- and we'll -- there

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 277 1 ar e a couple other things that need to be done, so 2 wh at we could do is basically write down -- you 3 kn ow, get the new data, write down what we're 4 pl anning to use for the MEIs, the C values, and 5 th e part-load factors, and send those to you guys 6 to make sure that we're all using the same thing. 7 MR. HUBER: When? 8 MS. WILLIAMS: Well, unfortunately I 9 do n't have the new data yet, so -- 10 MR. HUBER: Yeah. They've run into some 11 pr oblem and they're trying to get it cleared up. 12 We hope to have it to you by Monday. 13 MS. WILLIAMS: Yeah. So once we get the 14 da ta, it shouldn't take us very long, I think, but 15 I just can't promise anything until I -- 16 MR. HUBER: They're hoping to have it to 17 yo u. But you've got most -- well, you've got data 18 fr om a lot of us. 19 MS. WILLIAMS: Yeah, we do, and so we 20 co uld do it off that, but it's potentially that 21 th e C values might not be exactly the same, so, 22 yo u know.

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 278 1 MR. HUBER: Okay. Anyway, we're hoping 2 to get that to you Monday, but what I'm saying is 3 th at we want to be prepared when we come back, and 4 in order to do that, we've got to give them time 5 en ough to get it done and time enough for us to 6 lo ok at it and digest it. And so if you think 7 yo u're going to go with the 10, the 25, the 40, 8 th e 55, and the 70, then that's what we'll have 9 th em run. 10 MS. WILLIAMS: Okay. I mean, I just 11 th rew those out there with you guys -- 12 MR. HUBER: We can do our own C values. 13 I mean, we know how to -- you know, our guys know 14 ho w to do that, so -- 15 MS. WILLIAMS: Yeah. I have basically 16 ve rified they were the same, but it shouldn't be 17 th at far enough off of it, so just depending on 18 ho w we clean our datasets; right? So, yeah, 19 th at's fine with me. If you guys have any 20 pr eference for other efficiency levels, we could 21 ta lk about it. 22 MR. HUBER: Well, we would be fine with

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 279 1 5, 5.5 -- no. 2 (Laughter.) 3 MS. WILLIAMS: Okay. 4 (Laughter.) 5 MR. HUBER: No, we're fine. 6 MR. BROOKMAN: So, Alison, they can 7 ex pect that you will send -- when you've got the 8 da ta and when you've consulted with Dan and you've 9 go t those MEI numbers, you'll send them out. 10 MS. WILLIAMS: I mean, yeah. I think we 11 ha ve established it doesn't matter, but we can do 12 ou r due diligence. Yeah. 13 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. And you'll send 14 th em out to everyone. 15 MS. WILLIAMS: We can. Yeah. 16 MR. BROOKMAN: That would be great. 17 MS. WILLIAMS: And the other thing that 18 we have to use, Al, is the part-load factors for 19 75 percent and 110 percent to set the standard 20 le vels, so we'll just use the ones that the EU 21 us ed of it's like .95 and something else. So we 22 ca n send that.

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 280 1 MR. HUBER: If you're going to do that, 2 ju st put that in her spreadsheet and tell us what 3 yo u're doing. That's all you need to do. 4 MS. WILLIAMS: Okay. Yep. 5 MS. WIDDER: Okay. 6 MR. BROOKMAN: Thanks, Al. 7 Lucas Adin. No? Nothing at this point? 8 (No audible response.) 9 MR. BROOKMAN: Meg. 10 MS. WALTNER: So I just wanted to add 11 on to that. Maybe we could talk a little bit more 12 ab out what we're expecting to see from the 13 co nsultants before the next meeting in terms of 14 th e LCC analysis and the timeline that we're going 15 to get that on, which is hopefully more than a day 16 be fore the meeting. 17 (Laughter.) 18 MS. WILLIAMS: I mean, you may have, 19 be cause we don't have -- well, do we have a month 20 be fore the next meeting? 21 MR. BROOKMAN: Yes, we do. April 29 and 22 30 . It's a full month.

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 281 1 MS. WILLIAMS: Okay. So, yes, 2 un derstood. We will do our best to get something 3 ou t before the next meeting. We have a sequential 4 an alysis; right? Like Dan has to finish his first 5 be fore I can finish mine. So it's a little bit 6 pr oblematic because we're super crunched for time 7 al ready. We'll do our best. And what I told 8 so meone else earlier is if we fail this month, 9 wh at we're hoping to do is that we can present -- 10 an d so the plan for next meeting is to present 11 en gineering LCC. We can talk about inputs and 12 as sumptions and change them real time if possible, 13 an d then you guys will have those and can think 14 ab out them more and send us feedback between the 15 Ap ril and May meetings. So, I mean, we'll try to 16 ge t it out as soon as possible for April. I think 17 fo r the rest of the ones we'll be in better shape 18 be cause we can (inaudible) on previous analyses 19 th at you've already seen. And tomorrow I have a 20 me eting with my team to discuss what the scope of 21 me tric have been decided on and talk about how 22 on ce the new data comes in, we have new shipment

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 282 1 ef ficiency distributions that affect how the LCC 2 is modeled, whatever. 3 MS. WIDDER: Essentially we'll do our 4 be st. 5 MS. WILLIAMS: Essentially we'll do our 6 be st. I don't know the answer yet, and I know 7 it 's problematic to just show up at the meeting 8 an d get thrown a whole bunch of information for 9 th e first time. What we can hopefully send out in 10 ad vance is some slides with like the assumptions 11 th at are going in, so you at least have that to 12 th ink about in advance at a minimum, and if we 13 ca n't get the results out for some reason, so that 14 th ere will be pieces that you'll have. I think we 15 ca n shoot for that at a minimum, but there will be 16 so mething out there that can be looked at in 17 ad vance. 18 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Tom. 19 MR. ECKMAN: Yeah, I think it would be 20 he lpful, at least for me, and I suspect some of 21 th e other folks who are not in the industry, to 22 lo ok when you get the data so that we can look at

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 283 1 th e sales, weighted average, things, what the 2 hi stogram looks like in terms of product 3 ef ficiency out there in these classes so we know 4 wh ere things are grouped and what a 10 or a 20 or 5 wh atever might look like so we have some idea of 6 wh at we're looking at in terms of the -- 7 UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: (Off mike.) 8 MR. ECKMAN: Yeah, I know you would. 9 (Laughter.) 10 MR. ECKMAN: So in terms of preparation 11 fo r the next meeting, you know, we've got pretty 12 cl oudy glasses on right now looking into that, so 13 an y insights that we can get in advance to be 14 th inking about what that distribution looks like, 15 wh at the kinds of incremental costs of either 16 pr oduct improvement or product disappearance might 17 be . (Laughing.) Because there is cost in both of 18 th ose. 19 MR. BROOKMAN: Mark Handzel. 20 MR. HANDZEL: So Mark Handzel with 21 Xy lem. So we need to make sure that Navigant and 22 LB NL is doing that with the data they have. You

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 284 1 kn ow, we'll certainly be doing it with us with the 2 br oader database that HI has, but we aren't 3 al lowed to share that. 4 UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: Right. 5 MR. BROOKMAN: Alison, did you follow? 6 MS. WILLIAMS: So let's talk about that; 7 ri ght? So, I mean, Dan and I are planning to do 8 ou r analysis with the aggregated data that HI 9 co llected and NEMA is -- so I assume -- 10 MR. HANDZEL: So that's the analysis 11 th at you've asked us to run with the data that we 12 ha ve. 13 MS. WILLIAMS: I mean, that's not the -- 14 th at gives us the things that we need to do our 15 an alysis; right? But so can we -- 16 MR. HANDZEL: So that was the additional 17 wo rk that we advised was going to need to be 18 co mpensated for to be done? Is that -- 19 MS. WILLIAMS: I assume so. I haven't 20 he ard from DOE yet what the question is. So we're 21 go ing to meet with DOE tomorrow to determine what 22 NE MA is asking for because I don't know. I assume

### Capital Reporting Company Commercial/Industrial Pumps Working Group 03-27-2014

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 285 1 th at what Dan and I requested is what they have 2 pr oblems with, so -- 3 MR. HANDZEL: Yes. I'm pretty sure 4 th at's what it is, yeah. 5 (Laughter.) 6 MS. WILLIAMS: So we will try to get 7 th at resolved as soon as possible, but that data 8 th at we requested is what we're planning to use to 9 do our analysis. I mean, so because it's 10 ag gregated, it won't be exact, but it will be -- 11 yo u know. 12 MR. HANDZEL: Right. But did you hear 13 wh at Tom was asking for -- 14 MS. WILLIAMS: Yes. So that's why I'm 15 as king. I assume since it's aggregated, it's okay 16 to share that, like a histogram of C values from 17 th is data? 18 MR. HANDZEL: Yeah. Yeah, that's fine. 19 MS. WILLIAMS: Oh, okay. Yeah. So 20 le t's -- we can run those. 21 MR. HANDZEL: Right. It will show the 22 im pact on the industry and not identify any one

### Capital Reporting Company Commercial/Industrial Pumps Working Group 03-27-2014

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 286 1 ma nufacturer, it will be the overall industry, so 2 we 're completely fine with that. Yeah. 3 MS. WILLIAMS: Yeah. And that's how the 4 C values will be set, is essentially by a 5 hi stogram and what percentage fall out of each. 6 So we have to do that anyway. So we'll be happy 7 to share that. 8 MR. HUBER: I would just encourage you 9 to make up your mind quickly whether you're going 10 to contract with NEMA-BIS to do that extra work 11 be cause you're just delaying your own work if you 12 do n't. 13 MS. WILLIAMS: I agree. I didn't know 14 ab out this, and I requested DOE, to hear about it 15 to morrow. So I apologize. 16 MR. BROOKMAN: Thanks, Al. 17 And then thanks, Alison. 18 Other thoughts about looking ahead to 19 th e next meeting or series of meetings about needs 20 or things that we would like to queue up? 21 Yes, Mark. 22 MR. HANDZEL: So just -- I haven't

### Capital Reporting Company Commercial/Industrial Pumps Working Group 03-27-2014

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 287 1 ta lked to my cohorts on this, but I guess, you 2 kn ow, obviously we have a copy of all of Sarah's 3 sl ides, but there has been extensive discussions 4 on going going back and forth and adjusting stuff. 5 So I just -- you know, should we just kind of like 6 ma ke those -- throw away and get another -- is 7 th ere something else we can -- 8 MS. WIDDER: We'll send you a revised 9 ve rsion. 10 MR. HANDZEL: Okay. Okay. I just think 11 th at's important -- 12 MS. WIDDER: Plus I updated the numbers 13 in the table, so they're actually correct now. 14 (Laughing.) 15 MR. HANDZEL: Okay. All right. Yeah, 16 so if you want to check that, Sarah, and make sure 17 it 's all right. 18 MS. WIDDER: Yes. 19 MR. HANDZEL: Because there has been so 20 mu ch going on. 21 MS. WIDDER: Right. 22 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay, so then we

### Capital Reporting Company Commercial/Industrial Pumps Working Group 03-27-2014

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 288 1 li terally will throw these away. 2 MS. WIDDER: I mean, you can keep them 3 if you want. 4 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Recycle. 5 MR. BROOKMAN: Yes. 6 MS. WIDDER: And a lot of -- I mean, if 7 yo u want to write on things, the only thing I 8 up dated was really the numbers in the table that 9 we re errors. 10 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. 11 MS. WIDDER: And so most of the slides 12 ar e exactly the same. 13 MR. BROOKMAN: Yeah. Okay. 14 MR. ADIN: Can I clarify something? 15 MR. BROOKMAN: Lucas Adin. 16 MR. ADIN: Just with respect to slides 17 in particular, maybe -- well, you can tell me if 18 th is isn't what's most helpful, but we'll send out 19 an e-mail -- so we've sent out a couple things. 20 We ll, we sent out one, yeah. So there was some 21 st uff that was supposed to get sent out this 22 mo rning and didn't for some reason; right?

### Capital Reporting Company Commercial/Industrial Pumps Working Group 03-27-2014

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 289 1 But anyway, all the slides that contain 2 th e voting stuff, so the record of what we voted 3 on so far, we'll send that out. We'll send out 4 th e most up- to-date version of all the metric 5 sl ides and the spreadsheets, and I'll get a list 6 of what you guys should have, and we'll make sure 7 th at you have it, and that will be the most up-to8 da te stuff based on this meeting. So that will be 9 yo ur list. Yeah. 10 MR. POWERS: Only one other thing, if 11 it 's possible, I'm just speaking up for Greg, I 12 th ink he had asked Sarah earlier, the actual 13 fo rmulas behind all this, if there are a couple 14 sl ides you can send us of those or whatever. 15 MS. WIDDER: Mm-hmm. 16 MR. POWERS: Greg, before he left, had 17 as ked about, you know, this is all great no doubt, 18 bu t there are a lot of formulas behind this that 19 Sa rah has done a lot of good work on, and it would 20 be a good idea if we understood what those were 21 an d saw those. 22 MS. WIDDER: Mm-hmm.

### Capital Reporting Company Commercial/Industrial Pumps Working Group 03-27-2014

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 290 1 MR. ADIN: Okay. We can do that. Yes. 2 MR. POWERS: Okay, because that would be 3 im portant. That would be the third part. 4 MR. ADIN: Okay. 5 MR. BROOKMAN: Louis. 6 MR. STARR: So to tie in with that, just 7 th at example, or the equation and then stick in 8 th e numbers so that it comes out the answer that 9 yo u've listed in all three of those, for the 48.83 10 an d the 48.11 and the 21.36 -- 11 MS. WIDDER: Oh, this? 12 MR. STARR: Yeah. Just so we see the 13 eq uation -- 14 MS. WIDDER: And then it's all the way 15 do ne through. 16 MR. STARR: The numbers. 17 MS. WIDDER: Yeah. 18 MR. STARR: That way I'll understand 19 ev erything; right? 20 MS. WIDDER: Yes. 21 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Yes, Paul Lin. 22 MR. LIN: Maybe for the next meeting,

### Capital Reporting Company Commercial/Industrial Pumps Working Group 03-27-2014

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 291 1 se t out kind of what you want to be agreed upon. 2 I think we did it a couple times where Al and 3 ev eryone asked, "What do you want to know?" 4 Ri ght? Just reduce it down to the basics. So 5 wh at do we want to get done in the April meeting 6 be fore we all come in so that we have that mindset 7 of looking at the documents ahead of time to 8 un derstand what we need to prepare for. 9 MR. ADIN: Okay. That's a good ask. I 10 me an, we've talked about a few of those things in 11 th e last few minutes, but we can, as part of the 12 e- mail with all the stuff we're sending out, we'll 13 ju st articulate, "Here are the things that we're 14 go ing to do, here are the things we understand 15 yo u're going to do, if there is anything else -- 16 MR. BROOKMAN: "Here is what we hope to 17 ac complish." 18 MR. ADIN: Right. 19 MR. BROOKMAN: Yeah. Okay. Final 20 co mments here? 21 (No audible response.) 22 MR. BROOKMAN: I'm just going to do a

### Capital Reporting Company Commercial/Industrial Pumps Working Group 03-27-2014

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 292 1 ve ry brief summary. We really covered a lot of 2 gr ound in these past 2 days. We started off 3 ha ving a presentation, an overview, on the DOE 4 ru lemaking process. You might want to save those 5 Po werPoint slides somewhere on your machine 6 be cause I thought there was a lot of really good 7 co ntent there. And as we go -- as this working 8 gr oup tries to emulate the depth and breadth of 9 th at analysis that leads to a final product, it 10 ma y be useful for you to look at that again. 11 We went from there to reviewing the 12 ag gregated results from the new surveys. There is 13 mo re survey data coming in from NEMA-BIS that is 14 go ing to be sent to DOE, but that was a good 15 st art. 16 Also, we reviewed the updated scenarios 17 fo r circulator energy use savings and payback, and 18 th at led to a useful discussion and a vote. We 19 cl early established the scope for this 20 ne gotiation, that was a big breakthrough that we 21 ha d. From now on, those items in red will be 22 re ferred to as Phase 1 Scope.

### Capital Reporting Company Commercial/Industrial Pumps Working Group 03-27-2014

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 293 1 And then, in addition, we talked about 2 th e clean water definition for pumps and talked 3 al so about how the listed exclusions would 4 co mplement the clean water definition. We didn't 5 do anything specific with that. However, we did 6 co nclude, for now at least, the exclusions listed 7 in red on that worksheet. Sanitary pumps was 8 in cluded as an excluded item, and also -- oh, we 9 cl arified that the standards rulemaking applies to 10 el ectric drivers only. 11 Following on from that, today mostly, I 12 gu ess almost exclusively, we've talked about 13 me trics. We covered a lot of ground. We confirmed 14 th at the load points that are going to be used and 15 th e weighting for further analysis, and we also 16 go t a good presentation on HI's 40.6 from Arnie, 17 so we know a lot about that for test procedures, 18 th at will queue that up for additional work 19 lo oking ahead to the future. 20 So that's my brief summary. We covered 21 a lot in this 2 days. I'm looking forward to 22 se eing the analysis as it comes in, and I know you

### Capital Reporting Company Commercial/Industrial Pumps Working Group 03-27-2014

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 294 1 al l are as well. 2 Final comments from anybody that wishes 3 to make a comment at this point? 4 Chuck. 5 MR. POWERS: Yeah. I specifically want 6 to give credit to Sarah, and probably the rest of 7 th e team. They put a lot of time, a lot of valid 8 da ta. Sometimes one or two charts don't show and 9 th ere are a lot of arguments and -- in other 10 wo rds, it's amazing how somebody in the audience 11 ca n pick on something, but the person doing the 12 wo rk had to deal with it and had to author it. So 13 a lot of credit goes to Sarah and I'm sure the 14 re st of Alison's team and -- 15 MR. BROOKMAN: Alison and Dan, yeah, and 16 th e other teammates. Thank you. 17 MR. POWERS: -- did a considerable 18 am ount to get us to a point we can start to 19 un derstand things. 20 MR. BROOKMAN: Yeah. Okay. Thank you. 21 And, Meg? 22 (No audible response.)

### Capital Reporting Company Commercial/Industrial Pumps Working Group 03-27-2014

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 295 1 MR. BROOKMAN: No? 2 Okay. Well, safe travels. Our next 3 me eting will be April 29 and 30th here in 4 Wa shington. And best wishes. Safe travels. 5 (Whereupon, at 2:45 p.m., the 6 meeting of the Commercial and 7 Industrial Pumps Negotiated 8 Rulemaking Working Group was 9 adjourned.) 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 221 2 

### Capital Reporting Company Commercial/Industrial Pumps Working Group 03-27-2014

CERTIFICATE OF TRANSCRIPTION

3 I, DEBORAH ARBOGAST, hereby certify that I am 4 not the Court Reporter who reported the proceeding 5 and that I have typed the transcript of the 6 proceeding using the Court Reporter's notes and 7 recordings. The foregoing/attached transcript 8 is a true, correct and complete transcription of the 9 proceedings. 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 

## 5//fo/2Di'L**Oat~** 7 

## /}e)/?- kt/, 

# utdr!jt:y;{? DEBORAH ARBOGAST ?/ Transcriptionist

(866) 448

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### www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 

### 2014 296

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 $ $200 246:6 0 005 190:15 02 183:19 0214-2 1:11 08 183:19 1 1 14:5 23:14 46:14,20 47:7,13,16,19 49:8,11,12,17 79:15 153:10 196:17 231:12 259:19 267:16 268:1 269:22 270:1,13,21 271:17 292:22 1,000 92:2,6 96:18 267:16 1,350 36:4 1.8 22:5,9 167:8 1.9 22:9 1.95 168:17 1:00 175:16 10 55:8 62:1,5 66:9 84:12 113:17,19 115:21 223:13 235:14 242:15,22 264:20 276:1,2 278:7 283:4 10:00 122:3 10:20 122:8,9 100 8:3,20 10:4,10 11:1 13:2 14:6 26:1 34:7,10

38:6 39:13 42:4,8,14,20 43:1,7 51:10,15 70:4,7,8 108:9 123:5,11 124:16 129:8,13 135:21 138:11,15 144:18 147:18 149:10 155:3 156:10 157:19 158:16 159:21 161:18 162:18 174:1,16 181:7,15 182:7 184:1 185:2 186:16 187:3 190:14 210:11 211:21 217:4,10 219:7,8 220:2 228:20 253:21 254:5 255:6 256:20,22 269:1 276:5 1000 1:14 10-horsepower 166:3 246:1,6 11 108:21 269:16 270:4 271:10 11:30 175:4 177:5 110 8:4 10:4 11:1 13:2 21:15 23:8 26:2 38:6 39:13 42:5,8 43:1 51:10,15 123:6 124:16 129:9 131:5 133:3 135:11 136:2 138:11 143:17 144:19 147:18 149:10 156:10 157:5,9,18 173:21,22 174:1,3,16

181:7,15 182:8,16 183:20 184:2 186:16 187:3 217:4,14 219:7 220:2 228:20 231:12 253:22 254:20 255:10,12 256:21 279:19 12:30 177:6 120 10:4 11:17 44:5 133:3 184:17 231:6 1210 32:18 33:3,10,12 35:3,12 12-12 203:14 13 230:4 14.6 31:18 15 113:17,19 122:5 123:16 16 33:22 34:9 84:12 240:14 160 9:16 18 184:1 2 2 14:16 40:18 46:11 109:16 241:14 292:2 293:21 2,000 56:20 2.0 168:2,22 169:13 2.25 22:14 2.5 22:14 2.8 22:5,17 29:1 167:9 168:10 169:3

2:45 295:5 20 55:9 66:9 219:8 220:8 226:11,16 227:8,9 246:5 283:4 2010 204:4 2014 1:12 2016 204:5 2017 204:5 20585 1:15 21 219:19 221:17,18 21.36 222:14 290:10 21.3-horsepower 23:5 21-horsepower 261:7 22.5 222:14 25 34:9 42:10,14,20 43:6,12,16 56:18 115:14 123:11 129:13 132:5,6,7 135:22 138:3,4 139:1 155:4 160:2,8 161:18,22 163:3 174:1,10,11 211:21 217:10 223:11 229:1 231:14,17 232:14 242:15,22 254:4 255:6,10 256:22 257:1 276:1,2 278:7

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 27 1:12 29 280:21 295:3 2-speed 20:17 25:11 27:13,18 31:1 107:9,12 108:1 134:21 2-to-1 25:21 28:17 29:5,15,22 3 3 78:6 133:12 169:4 183:21 203:15 3.0 168:2,6 169:13,16 3.16 15:10 3:00 175:8 30 55:9 66:10 280:22 300 58:18 30th 295:3 32 272:20 33.15 25:10 33.45 24:17 34.04 36:21 35 84:20,22 35.15 24:12,16 37:1 37-horsepower 60:22 38 137:19 38.43 27:8 39.1 194:1 3-dimensional 34:14,17 35:5,14,16 4

4 183:19,22 203:19 204:15 207:21 208:6 274:11 4,000 56:14 40 10:4 28:8 33:22 34:6 234:12 242:15,22 260:8 276:2 278:7 40.6 9:22 10:3,22 34:20 38:15 47:21 204:16 251:6 293:16 40-something 222:3 42 130:3 183:19 43 219:19 256:6 260:5 431.25 11:14 45 60:22 173:22 266:11 45.08 20:9 40:10 45.76 14:7 45-horsepower 61:6 47 183:19 47.7 22:21 48 172:15 173:9,21 194:1 48.11 290:10 48.83 290:9 490 22:22 4-pole 14:16 203:13 214:1 4-to-1 28:19 29:15 5

5 61:22 71:4,11 122:3 153:9,11 166:2 196:16,19 208:6,10,21 279:1 5,000 56:14 5.5 279:1 50 8:5 11:1 13:3 23:7 26:3,14 27:4 28:10,12 29:6,7,9,14 34:7 38:7,21 42:4,14,20,22 44:12,16 51:10 54:20 56:19 77:18 80:22 81:1,6,7,9,11 84:21,22 108:19 123:11 129:13 133:4 134:2 135:10 139:1 144:17 145:18 147:5 148:4 149:4,16 151:4 155:1,2,4 156:17 157:3,11,19,22 158:2,4 159:20 161:14,18 162:17 163:3 167:22 173:21 174:21 181:7,15,16 182:6,16 190:13 211:21 217:10,14 219:8 220:7 229:1 234:14 254:4 255:6,11 256:20 260:9 50-horse 231:16 50-horsepower 52:9 233:3 50-something 222:3 53.65 11:18 54 26:15 55 242:15 243:1,2 276:2 278:8 55-horsepower 28:6 56 34:9 273:22 6 6 119:1,2 183:22 60 10:4 11:19 134:3 226:1 229:21 231:16 245:18 60-horse 9:18 203:13,20 234:13 60-horsepower 28:6 60:19 61:6 165:22 230:1,7 231:8 232:22 273:21 274:7 6315 130:3 67 26:10 234:12 7 7 10:1 138:21 183:22 7.5 61:22 62:1,5 7.5-horsepower 246:1 7.94-horsepower 26:18 70 133:3 220:18 242:16,22 243:3

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 276:2 278:8 74 68:20 74-1/2 69:1 75 8:4 10:4 11:1 13:3 23:4 26:1,10 28:10 34:7 37:13 38:5 42:4,8,14,20 43:1 44:17 45:7 51:10,14 68:18 123:5,11 124:16 129:8,13 131:4 132:20 135:11 136:2 138:11 143:16 144:18 147:18 149:10 155:4 156:10 157:5,9,18 159:20 161:18 162:17 173:21 174:3,16 181:7,15 182:7,16 183:21 185:2 186:16 187:3 211:21 217:4,10 219:7,8 220:2 228:20 229:2 231:12 234:10 253:21 254:4 255:6 256:20 274:5 279:19 75-horsepower 28:7,8 78 24:19 25:8,9 95:19 8 8 183:22 184:1 273:7 8:00 1:12 80 10:4 234:14 85 27:12 9 9 196:21 229:12,20 90 10:4 96:22 180:13 900 9:15 36:4 92 36:2 93 36:2,12 203:12 274:6,9 93.4 247:8 274:10 93.6 11:20 95:6 204:9 247:7 274:10 93.8 247:9 94 36:3,18,19 37:3,5,12 95 9:18 15:7,9 20:10 23:10 26:20 36:2 46:15 95:8,9 196:15,18,19 203:17 205:14 206:3 251:2 279:21 96 21:4 23:12 274:21 A a.m 1:12 ability 137:9 140:15 267:8,22 able 8:11 30:7,20 72:17 73:11 88:6 91:1 92:3 96:2,5 98:20 100:3 104:3 105:21 110:11 114:5 117:12 118:2 131:11

147:2 152:21 178:3 187:14 228:11,13 242:7 249:6 259:15 261:9 268:4 absolutely 101:2 170:12 262:20 accelerator 220:14,15 accept 127:3 acceptability 58:9 access 178:18,20 179:1 accessible 177:15 178:2 accommodate 165:15 accomplish 7:5,16 8:11 21:6 24:11 49:17 87:10 91:6 124:5 237:3,17 238:2 291:17 accomplished 25:14 36:10 accomplishes 21:7 account 8:22 9:1,2 11:11 27:12 28:14 37:18 49:13 99:1 119:9,15 161:8 168:5 238:19,20 accounted 30:19 43:17 74:9 accounting 19:10 23:18 24:7 65:6 119:12 accounts 37:21 49:12

accurate 41:19 173:5 210:15 275:20 achieve 110:9 acknowledge 72:10 152:17 acronym 272:14 across 59:15 71:7 140:12 181:4 256:13,18 258:9 261:10 274:1 act 171:7 252:21 actual 28:18 80:1 114:20 229:1 259:21 289:12 actually 10:10 11:20 16:7 21:10 22:12,13 35:15 36:5 37:8 58:15 74:2 78:1 88:19 89:6,17 97:3 99:18 101:6 102:7 103:1,5 104:2,7 107:9,12 108:1,3 119:15 120:5,20 131:3 132:2 133:19 134:1 147:12 149:7,19 150:15 154:13 156:22 164:13 165:3 182:21 185:5 187:17 189:2 209:7 210:9,10 224:21 233:2 234:20 237:19 239:7 245:9 248:19 254:16 256:22 257:4 259:16,22 261:9

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 287:13 adapting 87:18,19 add 31:7 32:11 53:22 74:2 76:15 80:14 109:12 138:16 147:8 179:19 208:10 239:18 255:19,21 262:10,15 280:10 added 35:20 181:12 adder 220:3 adding 20:12 220:3 addition 146:4 240:3 293:1 additional 57:19 266:7 284:16 293:18 address 63:18 149:11 179:14 180:1 242:1 addressed 140:6 addressing 63:2 adds 53:14 164:18 adequately 275:13 Adin 2:2 4:13 18:1,3,6,9,11 52:14 65:10,14 66:4 67:13 68:4 73:22 74:1 76:1,14 86:9 102:6,7 109:20 112:9 116:21 136:9,10 139:19 140:3 141:3,17 146:3 149:18 163:22 165:17 171:11 176:7,8 178:15 188:14,17,19 189:1,5 209:1,22 210:4,5,8,14 224:9 237:13,16,22 248:19,22 249:1 254:16 255:19 256:1 270:8,11,19 280:7 288:14,15,16 290:1,4 291:9,18 adjourned 295:9 adjust 268:14 adjuster 101:8 adjusting 78:7 228:1 287:4 adjustment 23:9 36:11 adjustments 121:15 ado 5:18 adopt 271:13 advance 282:10,12,17 283:13 advantage 59:21 62:9 104:19 165:8 236:19,21 237:7 256:15 259:9,10 advised 284:17 advocates 264:2 265:8 affect 28:1,2,4 78:9 116:14 121:10 148:7 267:8 282:1 affects 43:2 affinity 23:1 55:22 115:17 168:1,13 169:12 afternoon 175:10 afterwards 229:9 against 84:5 155:15 192:1 aggregated 284:8 285:10,15 292:12 ago 71:16 agreeable 271:16 agreed 54:15 146:21 208:1 268:11 270:3,11 291:1 agreeing 54:14 70:19 207:19 agreement 42:6 66:18 67:10 99:12 100:8 124:12 127:22 265:11 agricultural 96:16 Ah 180:8 ahead 57:20 71:14 75:3 79:2 90:14 98:12 99:2 110:17,18 146:1,18 178:14 191:7 214:20 221:3 229:15,18 240:12 269:13 286:18 291:7 293:19 AHRI 2:11 5:2

32:17 33:3,10,12 35:2,12 air 81:22 84:11 Air-Conditioning 2:10 Al 3:16 50:10 51:1,3 55:18 75:1 83:18,19 106:13 110:15 113:9 116:13 117:1 118:8 122:3,14 129:5 135:4,6 148:1 154:19 157:7 166:11 170:2,9 186:10 190:5 192:7 198:21 211:15 215:3,16 216:9 217:1 218:21 221:2 222:4,5 225:14 255:3 258:11 259:14 260:2 261:3 263:15,18 275:11 279:18 280:6 286:16 291:2 Albert 2:7 algorithm 11:6 12:17 230:20 231:5 align 124:1 alignment

236:1 Alison 2:17 4:17 74:3 78:22 98:11,12,13 99:3,5 100:5 118:2,3 119:13 121:17 126:3 127:20 142:6

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 145:5 151:21 194:21 215:13 216:13,16 217:20 218:15,20 224:1 237:12 238:17 242:5 253:9,15 279:6 284:5 286:17 294:15 Alison's 294:14 allay 113:11 Alliance 2:14 allow 17:9 41:8 121:14 216:6 238:7 248:12 allowed 284:3 allowing 21:16 30:13 allows 8:10 41:19 140:12 256:12 alone 117:17 132:4 211:1 212:12 Alphabetical 2:1 already 127:10 137:5 143:8 156:1 179:15 201:2 236:18 270:11 281:7,19 Al's 53:19 55:1 156:4 alternative 31:17 alternatives 31:9 am 9:8 10:22 75:14 81:3 103:13 253:18 265:2 296:3 amazing 294:10 American 2:11 4:10 amongst 215:17 amount 28:21 43:3,4 54:17 64:8 106:3 132:6 179:20 241:18 257:11 294:18 analyses 79:10 238:20 281:18 analysis 64:8 65:6 66:17 73:3 74:7 78:5,19 98:16,17 99:1,14,18,19 100:2 114:19 117:19 121:8,14,20 122:1 127:1 149:6 164:5 165:9 167:17 168:5 215:15 216:6,19 218:18 219:4 223:8,15,21 224:3,6 237:19 242:12 253:18,21 262:17,21 265:22 266:5 280:14 281:4 284:8,10,15 285:9 292:9 293:15,22 analytical/ theoretical 56:5 analyze 48:9 112:11 analyzing 164:20 and/or 152:18 201:7 annual 102:13,18 130:4

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### Capital Reporting Company

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### Capital Reporting Company

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### Capital Reporting Company

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### Capital Reporting Company

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### Capital Reporting Company

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### Capital Reporting Company

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### Capital Reporting Company

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### Capital Reporting Company

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### Capital Reporting Company

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### Capital Reporting Company

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