Page 1

 U.S. DEPARTMENT OF ENERGY 

+ + + + + 

ENERGY CONSERVATION STANDARDS FOR 

RESIDENTIAL DEHUMIDIFIERS 

+ + + + + 

PUBLIC MEETING 

+ + + + + 

MONDAY 

SEPTEMBER 24, 2012 

+ + + + + 

The meeting was held in the 

Forrestal Building, Room 8E-089,

1000 Independence Avenue, S.W., Washington,

D.C., at 1:00 p.m, Doug Brookman, Facilitator,

presiding.

PRESENT: 

DOUG BROOKMAN, Facilitator, Public Solutions,

Inc. 

BETSY KOHL, Department of Energy

STEPHEN WITKOWSKI, Department of Energy 

ALSO PRESENT: 

BEN BARRINGTON, Navigant Consulting, Inc.

DONALD BRUNDAGE, Southern Company

KEVIN CHURCHILL, Intertek

JENNIFER CLEARY, Association of Home Appliance

Manufacturers 

CAMILLA DUNHAM WHITEHEAD, Lawrence Berkeley

National Laboratory

JULIA FARBER, UL LLC

AMANDA GONZALEZ, Energy Solutions

MAITHILI IYER, Lawrence Berkeley National

Laboratory

ANDREW JEAN-LOUIS, Navigant Consulting, Inc. 

Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc.

202-234-4433
Page 2 

STEVE LEYBOURN, Association of Home Appliance 

Manufacturers 

JOANNA MAUER, Appliance Standards Awareness 

Project 

MARK MENZER, Intertek 

CHUN CHUN NI, Lawrence Berkeley National 

Laboratory 

TERESA PECK, Intertek 

JUDITH REICH, Navigant Consulting, Inc. 

NADAV SINGERMAN, Navigant Consulting, Inc. 

LOUIS STARR, Northwest Energy Efficiency 

Alliance 

TIMOTHY SUTHERLAND, Navigant Consulting, Inc. 

TROY WATSON, Navigant Consulting, Inc. 

MEG WALTNER, Natural Resources Defense Council 

TIMOTHY LONG, Lawrence Berkeley National 

Laboratory 

Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc.

202-234-4433
 

 

 

 

 

 

Page 3

 TABLE OF CONTENTS 

PAGE 

Welcome, Opening Remarks, and 4 

Agenda Review 

Rulemaking Introduction and 4 

Background 

Test Procedure, Market and 12 

Technology Assessment, Screening 

Analysis, and Engineering Analysis 

Preliminary and NOPR Manufacturer 56 

Impact Analysis 

Markups for Equipment Price 65 

Determination, Energy Use 

Determination, Life-Cycle Cost and 

Payback Period Analysis, Shipments 

Analysis, National Impact Analysis, 

LCC Subgroup Analysis, Utility 

Impact Analysis, Employment Impact 

Analysis, Emissions Analysis, and 

Regulatory Impact Analysis 

Other Issues and Comments, Closing 106 

Remarks 

Adjourn 

Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc.

202-234-4433
 

 

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

Page 4

 P-R-O-C-E-E-D-I-N-G-S 

(1:03 p.m.) 

FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Let's do 

start. Welcome, everybody. This is the U.S. 

Department of Energy's public meeting on 

energy conservation standards for residential 

dehumidifiers. 

Today is Monday, September 24th, 

here in the Forrestal Building in Washington, 

D.C. A beautiful day in Washington, by the 

way. 

My name is Doug Brookman from 

Public Solutions in Baltimore. Glad to have 

you with us. We will start this afternoon 

with brief welcoming remarks from Stephen 

Witkowski. 

MR. WITKOWSKI: Hello, everyone. 

Welcome or welcome back. I'll make this very 

brief, since we have a lot of information to 

cover quickly. 

But basically, we will present our 

methodology for conducting the energy 

Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc.

202-234-4433
 

 

 

 

 

 

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

Page 5 

conservation standards rulemaking for 

residential dehumidifiers this afternoon. And 

this being a framework document meeting, we 

are primarily interested in seeking input and 

information and data and your comments on our 

methodologies. 

So with that, thank you for 

coming, and let's start. 

FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Okay. We 

typically start off these meetings by doing 

introductions around the room. I'm going to 

start here to my immediate left. And if you 

would start by saying your name and 

organizational affiliation. It gives you a 

chance to get used 

microphones on and off as well. 

MS. FARBER: 

to 

Julia 

turning 

Please. 

Farber 

these 

with 

Underwriters Laboratories. 

FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Okay. 

Excuse me one second. Brenda asked me at the 

outset -- the Department -- I apologize for 

interrupting. The Department makes a 

Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc.

202-234-4433
 

 

 

 

 

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

Page 6 

photocopy of the business cards of those that 

are here present, and if you were at the 

meeting this morning, then we do not have a 

copy of that business card. 

So if you could hand a business 

card to Brenda as she walks around, then the 

Department will have a more complete record of 

who is here today. So thanks for doing that. 

Now, please. 

MS. FARBER: Okay. Still Julia 

Farber from UL. Thanks. 

MR. BRUNDAGE: Don Brundage, 

Southern Company Electric Utility. 

MS. WALTNER: Meg Walter, the 

Natural Resources Defense Council. 

MS. MAUER: Joanna Mauer, 

Appliance Standards Awareness Project. 

MS. GONZALEZ: Amanda Gonzalez 

with Energy Solutions on behalf of the 

California Investor-Owned Utilities. 

MS. CLEARY: Jennifer Cleary with 

the Association of Home Appliance 

Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc.

202-234-4433
 

 

 

 

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

Page 7 

Manufacturers. 

MR. CHURCHILL: Kevin Churchill 

with Intertek. 

MR. MENZER: Mark Menzer with 

Intertek. 

MS. KOHL: Betsy Kohl, DOE GC. 

MR. WITKOWSKI: Steve Witkowski, 

U.S. DOE. 

FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Will you 

please stand up? We'll go around the room. 

No need for a microphone here. Just project. 

(Whereupon, introductions were made from offmic locations.) 

Okay. Thanks to all of you. 

I would note we have some 

additional seats at the table. If you expect 

to be making comments during the course of the 

meeting today, please feel free to come up and 

join us here on the front row. 

All of you received a packet of 

information when you came into the room today. 

I'm going to do a very brief agenda review. 

Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc.

202-234-4433
 

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

Page 8 

You can see immediately following these 

opening remarks and agenda review there is a 

-- we will have a rulemaking introduction and 

background. 

Prior to that, after the agenda 

review in fact, there is an opportunity for 

anybody that wishes to do so to make opening 

statements and opening remarks about issues 

that matter to you. 

Immediately following the 

rulemaking introduction and background, we 

will move to a description of the test 

procedure, market and technology assessment, 

screening analysis, and engineering analysis, 

and following that preliminary and NOPR 

manufacturer impact analysis. 

We will take a break mid-afternoon 

as useful. And following that, an overview of 

markups for equipment price determination, 

energy use determination, life-cycle cost and 

payback period analyses -- analysis, shipments 

analysis, national impact analysis, LCC 

Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc.

202-234-4433
1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

Page 9 

subgroup, utility, employment, emissions, and 

regulatory impact analyses -- plural. 

And at the end of the day today, 

around about 3:45 or so, there is another 

opportunity for anybody that wants to to make 

an additional comment, raise any other issues 

that you think are important at this point in 

the proceeding. 

So that's the plan for today. 

Questions and comments? 

(No response.) 

I see none. All of you received 

this packet of information. This will be the 

basis upon which we will both review 

information and offer comment today. The 

Department has a lot of information in these 

colorful slides, and they also in here have --

if you look through it, they have callout 

boxes, comment boxes, where they ask for 

specific information to come from those of you 

here present. We hope that you can respond to 

those. 

Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc.

202-234-4433
 

 

 

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

Page 10

 So questions or comments on any of 

that? 

(No response.) 

I would ask for your 

consideration, please, today. Speak one at a 

time. Please say your name for the record 

each time you speak. We typically have 

individuals now joining us via the web. Yes? 

How many do we have joining? Eight. Can you 

-- we should probably have those individuals 

identify themselves. Can you bring that 

microphone over and just read their names into 

the record? 

PARTICIPANT: Online we have Brian 

Daugherty, Charlie Stevens, Kurt Trammell, 

Daniel Young, Linda Wilson, Michael Woodford, 

Renata Mortazavi, and Yolanda Williams. 

FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Thank you, 

Emily. Appreciate that. And for those of you 

joining us online, the Department of Energy is 

trying hard to make these meetings accessible 

to everyone via the web. 

Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc.

202-234-4433
1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

Page 11

 Please turn your microphones or 

your telephones on mute, so you won't cause 

feedback to our system here in the room, and 

also please feel free to raise your hand to 

ask a question or deliver a comment during the 

course of the proceedings today. 

Finally, if we could -- everybody 

could silent their cell phones, and let's keep 

the comment as targeted and focused as 

possible. There is quite a bit of content 

here, and we will try and get through it as 

expeditiously as possible. 

Questions and comments before we 

proceed? 

(No response.) 

I see none. So, Stephen, I was 

thinking we would do opening remarks, if there 

are any, right now. 

MR. WITKOWSKI: Sure. 

FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Yes. Are 

there any comments here at the outset 

surrounding issues that matter to you? 

Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc.

202-234-4433
 

 

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

Page 12

 (No response.) 

I see none. Then, let's proceed. 

Are you going to start off? First, we will 

hear from Judith Reich. 

MS. REICH: Okay. Well, good 

afternoon, everybody. It is a pleasure to be 

here and talking about DOE embarking on this 

new dehumidifier rulemaking. Thanks to 

everybody who has continued on from this 

morning. 

Let's see. I'm going to start off 

by -- this is Judith Reich from Navigant --

give a little bit of the introduction and 

background. Obviously, we are here for the 

framework document public meeting, really 

encouraging everybody to provide as much 

information and data as possible. Welcome all 

comments. 

As you have seen from the previous 

meeting, the request for comment will be 

indicated by these green boxes, and the 

numbers in those boxes you can refer back to 

Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc.

202-234-4433
 

 

 

 

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

Page 13 

the framework document for the appropriate 

sections. 

Again, the instructions for 

submitting comments -- what I'd like to point 

out is that the comment period closes October 

17th, which was an extension from the original 

date that was indicated for the framework 

document. So October 17th for written 

comments. 

A quick background -- the original 

standards for dehumidifiers were established 

in EPACT 2005, and those applied to 

dehumidifiers manufactured after October 1, 

2007. EISA, the Energy Independence and 

Security Act, amended EPCA to establish new 

standards that will go into effect in -- a 

week from now, October 1, 2012. 

Those were codified -- although 

EISA came out in 2007, they were codified in 

2009. So the reason that we are initiating 

this rulemaking is that DOE is required under 

EPCA to publish a notice of proposed 

Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc.

202-234-4433
1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

Page 14 

rulemaking no later than six years after that 

previous final rule. So this rulemaking will 

meet that requirement. 

I thought it would be a good idea 

to quickly remind everybody of the current and 

upcoming standards. It would be useful to 

point out that the 2012 standards not only are 

creating more stringent standards in terms of 

the regulated metric of energy factor, which 

is defined as the liters of moisture removed 

per kilowatt hour. 

Those are becoming more stringent, 

but I also want to point out that the product 

classes have been disaggregated a little 

differently. And that is that the original 

product classes 1 and 2, the less than 25 

pints per day, and the 25 to 35 pints per day, 

have been consolidated into a single product 

class. 

And the original product class 3, 

which was the 35 to 54 pints per day, has been 

split into a 35 to 45 and a 45 to 54. And I 

Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc.

202-234-4433
 

 

 

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

Page 15 

think that was, you know, in recognition of 

the types of products that are currently 

available. 

This is a timeline for how this 

rulemaking is anticipated to proceed. We are 

here at the green box, the framework document. 

DOE expects to make the preliminary analysis 

available in early 2014 with the target of 

first quarter 2015 for the NOPR and a final 

rule sometime around 2016. 

I also want to point out that it 

is actually -- there is an update to this last 

bullet point, because since this presentation 

went to press the test procedure -- amended 

test procedure actually has been issued, and 

this addresses standby and off mode and 

certain active mode updates. 

Again, EPCA requires the 

rulemaking to demonstrate technological 

feasibility and economic justification for new 

standards, and these are the analyses that 

correspond to the demonstration of 

Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc.

202-234-4433
 

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

Page 16 

technological feasibility, and, as everybody 

is well aware, the seven factors that must be 

considered. 

So talking a little bit more about 

the dehumidifier test procedure, the current 

test procedure is denoted as Appendix X in 

Title 10 of the Code of Federal Regulations at 

Part 430, Subpart B. 

And this was originally specified 

-- the requirement originally specified in 

EPCA is that the test procedure measures two 

parameters -- the capacity, which is used to 

establish the product class, and energy 

factor. 

And it actually referenced a 

previous Energy Star requirement, 

qualification criteria, which in turn made 

reference to these two standards -- the 

ANSI/AHAM DH-1 to measure capacity in the 

pints of moisture removed per day, and a 

Canadian standard, CAN/CSA C749-94. And that 

is calculating energy factor in terms of 

Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc.

202-234-4433
 

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

Page 17 

liters of moisture removed per kilowatt hour. 

DOE recently conducted its 

rulemaking for standby mode and off mode 

energy use in the dehumidifier test procedure 

to meet the requirements of EISA 2007. And 

that required DOE to amend the test procedures 

for certain residential products, which 

included dehumidifiers, to include measures of 

standby mode and off mode energy use, if 

technologically feasible and if the test 

procedure didn't already include measures of 

those. 

So some of the background was that 

in 2010 DOE published a NOPR, and it proposed 

to reference the international standard for 

measuring standby power, which is IEC 62301. 

At the time, that was a first edition of the 

IEC method, and it was recognized that IEC was 

in the process of updating that. And with 

support of commenters, DOE published a 

supplemental NOPR to reference the second 

edition of IEC 62301. 

Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc.

202-234-4433
 

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

Page 18

 So, again, this is -- since this 

was put together, that amendment has been made 

to the test procedure to include measures from 

IEC 62301 for measuring standby mode and off 

mode power. 

In addition, that rulemaking 

updated the active mode part of the test 

procedure, so that rather than indirectly 

referencing those two external standards for 

-- each one measuring a different parameter, 

it is now measuring both energy factor and 

capacity according to the current ANSI/AHAM 

DH-1, which is 2008. 

So that amendment has been -- the 

rule has been issued. It establishes a new 

appendix called Appendix X1 that will have the 

standby mode and off mode energy use and the 

new DH-1, and X1 will be required to be used 

on the compliance date of standards that are 

being addressed in this standards rulemaking. 

Okay. So the next portion of the 

discussion are covering the various analyses 

Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc.

202-234-4433
 

 

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

Page 19 

that DOE will conduct at the preliminary stage 

of this rulemaking. And I will be talking 

about the first few pieces of it indicated in 

this flowchart, starting with the market and 

technology assessment. 

MS. MAUER: Judy, I have a comment 

on the test procedure. Would now be a good 

time to --

MS. REICH: Oh, yes. I'm sorry. 

FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Joanna 

Mauer. Go ahead. 

MS. MAUER: Thank you. So we are 

concerned that the active mode test procedure 

for dehumidifiers doesn't reflect actual field 

performance. A recent study that Cadmus 

conducted, a field monitoring study of 

dehumidifiers, found that for most of the 

units in their sample the measured energy 

factor was significantly lower than the rated 

value. 

And they attributed this, at least 

in part, to lower ambient temperatures and 

Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc.

202-234-4433
 

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

Page 20 

lower relative humidity levels in the field 

compared to the rating conditions. And I 

don't think this is a surprising result. 

We know from RECS that of the 

homes that have -- that use dehumidifiers, 75 

percent of those homes have basements, which 

suggests that most dehumidifiers are used in 

basements. And I think typical basement 

temperatures are certainly lower than 80 

degrees Fahrenheit. 

And then, regarding the relative 

humidity rating condition, I think 60 percent 

relative humidity probably represents really 

kind of the upper bound of what is recommended 

in terms of relative humidity levels. And the 

Cadmus study found that the average setpoint 

of the dehumidifiers in their sample was 

closer to 50 percent relative humidity. 

And then, another study that was 

recently conducted by NREL, they tested six 

different dehumidifiers, and they measured 

energy factor over a fairly wide range of 

Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc.

202-234-4433
1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

Page 21 

ambient temperatures and relative humidity 

levels. 

And their test results showed that 

some dehumidifiers maintained performance 

better than others over a wide range of 

ambient conditions, especially when you get 

down to lower ambient temperatures and 

relative humidity levels that are probably 

more reflective of what we see in the field 

for where dehumidifiers are operated. 

And so I think this suggests that 

not only does the current test procedure not 

adequately represent field performance, but 

that the current test procedure also doesn't 

necessarily give a good indication of relative 

performance among units in the field at realworld operating conditions. 

So we would encourage DOE to look 

at amending the test procedure, both to better 

reflect real-world performance and also to 

encourage good performance over a range of 

operating conditions, not just at the single 

Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc.

202-234-4433
 

 

 

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

Page 22 

rated condition. 

FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Thank you. 

MS. REICH: Thank you. Any other 

test procedure comments? 

(No response.) 

Then, moving on to the market and 

technology assessment, as you are familiar 

with, it is to characterize the state of the 

dehumidifier industry and market using 

historical data for shipments and trends, and 

also in the technology assessment portion to 

identify those technologies and strategies 

that can be used to improve efficiency of the 

units. 

So the method, you know, is to 

identify and characterize the specific 

dehumidifier manufacturers, use various 

sources to develop data to look at the 

historical trends, to do a thorough survey of 

the technologies that are available that have 

been demonstrated to improve efficiency, and 

to identify the various regulatory and nonNeal R. Gross & Co., Inc.

202-234-4433
 

 

 

 

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

Page 23 

regulatory or voluntary initiatives that can 

help encourage the implementation of more 

efficient products. 

I would like to put out a request 

for comment. DOE requests information that 

would contribute to the market assessment, 

with information such as current product 

features and efficiencies, trends, historical 

product shipments, and prices. 

FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: No 

comments. 

MS. REICH: All right. It is 

useful to include here a definition of, under 

EPCA, exactly what is considered a 

dehumidifier. This is a statutory definition. 

It is a self-contained, electrically 

operated, and mechanically refrigerated 

encased assembly consisting of the components 

listed here. 

DOE will consider categorizing 

dehumidifiers by means of product classes when 

evaluating energy conservation standards, and 

Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc.

202-234-4433
 

 

 

 

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

Page 24 

the usual criteria for defining product 

classes are the type of energy used, the 

capacity of the equipment, and other 

performance-related features that can provide 

utility to the consumer. 

As noted previously, the current 

standards have established five product 

classes for dehumidifiers based on the amount 

of moisture that they can remove in a 24-hour 

period under the DOE test procedure. 

And as a starting point, in the 

framework document, DOE has proposed 

maintaining the same five product classes that 

are the basis of the upcoming October 2012 

standards, but clarifying that these would 

apply to portable dehumidifiers. And by 

"portable" we mean those units that are 

designed to have an intake and exhaust to 

ambient conditions rather than a ducted 

installation. 

So these will be defined as 

portable dehumidifiers, and the reason that we 

Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc.

202-234-4433
1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

Page 25 

are including this clarification is that DOE 

is also considering defining a separate 

product class for this ducted type of 

configuration, which are designated as whole 

home dehumidifiers. 

Talking about whole home units a 

little further, an initial review of these 

products indicates that they use similar 

technologies as the portable units, but are 

designed to be operated and installed in a 

ducted configuration, normally in tandem with 

the home's central air conditioning system. 

And so they have, you know, a case that 

provides for inlet and outlet connection to a 

ducting system. 

Some means by which they may 

differ from portable units is that the 

performance of the product in terms of the 

energy factor and capacity could be affected 

by air flow and pressure restrictions or 

impacts from the ducting. Many of these units 

are also installed with an additional fresh 

Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc.

202-234-4433
 

 

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

Page 26 

air intake, alongside the return side air duct 

from the home, so that they would have 

management of two air streams at the intake 

side. 

These units also are typically the 

larger size. They pretty much start at about 

65 pints per day in capacity, ranging up to 

about 200 pints per day at the residential 

scale. An initial review of the energy factor 

-- energy factors that have been published for 

these units, albeit under the DOE test 

procedure that doesn't specifically have 

provisions for measuring a ducted 

installation, showed that there was no 

distinct correlation as you go -- increase in 

capacity with the energy factor. There was no 

real trend in energy factor, and so, 

therefore, DOE is initially proposing to 

include all of the whole home units in a 

single product class. 

There are some portable 

dehumidifiers -- typically, again, some of the 

Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc.

202-234-4433
 

 

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

Page 27 

larger capacity units -- that are designed to 

-- or have the option to be installed in a 

ducted configuration. And DOE is seeking 

information on how these products should be 

considered, how they should be tested and 

rated, because there are several options. 

These could be considered portable units 

without the optional ducting kit, and, thus, 

they would be tested in a configuration 

without ducting, which would be the least 

energy consumption. 

Alternatively, they could be 

classified as whole home units, because they 

can be installed in ducting. And if they are 

tested in such a manner with greater 

restrictions, it's likely that that would be 

the most energy intensive way that you would 

test them. And it is possible that there 

would be some hybrid or some alternative means 

by which these would be tested. 

So that leads me to the request 

for comment. In general, DOE would welcome 

Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc.

202-234-4433
 

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

Page 28 

input from the stakeholders on those proposed 

classes and criteria for defining the classes, 

whether there should be more or fewer criteria 

that are the basis for the product classes, 

and also specifically on the classification of 

whole home dehumidifiers as a separate product 

class, and the potential for classifying these 

portable dehumidifiers that can optionally be 

operated in a ducted configuration, how those 

should be classified. 

MS. MAUER: Jennifer. 

MS. CLEARY: Jen Cleary with AHAM. 

I just was wondering if you could clarify a 

little bit what you are thinking about when 

you say the "ducted installation," like 

particularly with the portable ones that could 

be operated that way. Do you intend only to 

mean the ones that -- like the manufacturer 

provides specific instructions for ducting? 

Or would you anticipate that including any 

dehumidifier that the consumer could 

theoretically install in it? 

Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc.

202-234-4433
 

 

 

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

Page 29

 MS. REICH: Well, I think we are 

seeking information on --

MS. CLEARY: Okay. 

MS. REICH: -- what a 

recommendation would be on how -- on what the 

appropriate differentiation should be. 

MS. CLEARY: Okay. Thank you. 

FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Thank you. 

Amanda. 

MS. GONZALEZ: This is Amanda 

Gonzalez on behalf of the California IOUs. I 

was wondering if you could describe what you 

thought the unique utility was for the smaller 

capacity units. 

My understanding is that they are 

less efficient but not necessarily -- they 

don't necessarily offer unique utility to 

consumers. And to this point, it is my 

understanding that Energy Star is moving away 

from having multiple capacity categories, and 

they are just jumping to two. 

MS. REICH: Yes, that's correct 

Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc.

202-234-4433
 

 

 

 

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

Page 30 

about Energy Star. And the -- you know, this 

was -- I think historically the 

differentiation was made on the basis of that 

-- different capacities having inherently 

different capabilities to achieve a certain 

energy factor level. 

But, again, this was maintained --

this was based on the EISA 2007 

differentiation. And if you have a comment 

on, you know, whether different or more or 

less differentiation would be appropriate, 

definitely welcome that. 

FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Other 

comments here? 

(No response.) 

Okay. 

MS. REICH: Okay? In the 

technology assessment, there was a previous 

analysis conducted just before the EISA 2007 

standards came out. It was a preliminary 

analysis that was conducted for dehumidifiers, 

and that is where most of these technology 

Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc.

202-234-4433
 

 

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

Page 31 

options were identified. 

But, you know, long list of 

potential means to improve efficiency, and we 

would certainly welcome any thoughts on those 

technology options, whether there are any that 

should not be considered, or whether there are 

any that were missed. 

FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Jennifer 

first. 

MS. CLEARY: Hi. Jen Cleary with 

AHAM. In the framework document it says that 

DOE has identified, through research and 

review of product literature, additional 

designs that may be used to decrease 

dehumidifier energy use including heat pipe 

technology, which I see is on the list up 

there. 

But I was just wondering if you 

could expand or provide information on the 

product literature and research that 

determined that, and it sounds like including 

heat pipe technology. Were there others that 

Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc.

202-234-4433
 

 

 

 

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

Page 32 

were identified that aren't on the list? 

MS. REICH: Well, the research 

identified many of those technologies are 

still being implemented that were identified 

in the previous analysis. So the heat pipe 

technology is the only new one that is on that 

list. 

But, you know, it was a 

comprehensive review of products that are 

currently available on the market looking at 

research that has been conducted lately, a 

wide variety of sources. 

FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Joanna. 

MS. MAUER: Joanna Mauer. I 

understand that there are some dehumidifiers 

on the market that employ air-to-air heat 

exchangers to pre-cool the incoming air using 

the cool air coming off of the evaporator. Is 

DOE planning to look at other pre-cooling 

technologies aside from heat pipe technology? 

MS. REICH: Certainly. With 

additional information, we would be happy to. 

Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc.

202-234-4433
 

 

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

Page 33

 MS. MAUER: Okay. 

FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: There you 

see the list. Other comments? 

MS. FARBER: Can I go back to the 

comment right before? I just have one --

FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Please do. 

MS. FARBER: -- piece of -- a 

clarification that I --

FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Yes. 

Julia. 

MS. FARBER: I'm sorry. The one 

about the whole home or the portable. Sorry. 

Julia Farber from UL. Just a point of 

clarification. Has the DOE taken any note of 

any reason or trend to understand why a 

portable system might be used over a whole 

home system based on geography? Are there any 

things to -- any data out there to imply that 

one region of the U.S. might use a different 

type? 

MS. REICH: There has -- I am not 

aware of any information about geographical 

Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc.

202-234-4433
 

 

 

 

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

Page 34 

distribution of their use. Our initial 

research has shown that these types of units 

are used in applications that have more 

limited ducting -- for example, a finished 

basement where the dehumidifier is desired to 

be located in an unfinished space nearby with 

a more limited amount of ducting than would be 

normally used for a whole home configuration. 

But again, you know, any input on how these 

are used, how they are installed --

MS. FARBER: 

point, I just have --

MS. REICH: 

Sorry. 

--

At 

would 

this 

be 

appreciated. 

MS. FARBER: -- questions. Thank 

you. 

FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Amanda. 

MS. GONZALEZ: Yes. This is 

Amanda Gonzalez with the California IOUs. I 

have a question about the whole home 

dehumidifiers. Is there a test procedure for 

that in place? And, if not, what's the plan 

Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc.

202-234-4433
 

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

Page 35 

to develop one? 

MS. REICH: Well, the current DOE 

test procedure does not have any ducting 

configuration. It is designed for the product 

to be, you know, tested in an environmental 

chamber as is. So the question would be, 

should DOE consider a new test method to test 

these units separately? 

For the products that are 

currently rated with an energy factor, we 

believe that they are being tested according 

to the current test procedure. 

FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Joanna. 

MS. MAUER: Joanna Mauer. Just a 

question about the first technology option, 

the built-in humidistat. Is that something 

that the potential benefits can't be captured 

by the existing test procedure? Or, in other 

words, would the test procedure have to be 

amended to be able to capture the potential 

energy savings that are built in --

MS. REICH: You know, that's a 

Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc.

202-234-4433
 

 

 

 

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

Page 36 

very good point. I think you're correct. 

MS. MAUER: Okay. 

MS. REICH: Because the test 

procedure is designed to have the unit 

operating continuously under --

MS. MAUER: Constant. 

MS. REICH: -- certain ambient --

yes --

MS. MAUER: Okay. 

MS. REICH: -- set ambient 

conditions, so --

MS. MAUER: Okay. 

MS. REICH: -- I think your 

comment is correct. 

MS. MAUER: Because I think --

yes, I think we would encourage Julia to kind 

of analyze what the potential energy savings 

from -- from that technology option would be, 

and to consider potential amendments to the 

test procedure to be able to capture that 

technology option. 

FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Okay. 

Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc.

202-234-4433
 

 

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

Page 37 

Thank you. 

MS. MAUER: Thank you. 

FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Additional 

comments here? 

(No response.) 

Okay. 

MS. REICH: Okay. I think we've 

actually covered this comment already, but one 

more opportunity to comment on product 

classes, particularly as we go forward to the 

engineering and life-cycle cost analyses. 

FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: And 

particularly anything safety performance and 

consumer utility as relates to the product 

classes? Yes, please. Julia. 

MS. FARBER: Sorry. Julia from 

UL. Just another point of clarification that 

I just need from somebody who knows the 

technology better than I. The list of 

technologies that you included, are there any 

that are highly susceptible to molding? That 

would need to be an additional consideration 

Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc.

202-234-4433
 

 

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

Page 38 

in this procedure. 

FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Do we have 

someone who can answer that? 

(No response.) 

That one is voluntary. 

MS. FARBER: No worries. Thank 

you. 

FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Okay. 

Okay. 

MS. REICH: Okay. The second 

stage of the preliminary analysis is the 

screening analysis where the -- that long list 

of technology options are reviewed to see 

whether they meet the criteria for continuing 

to consider them in later stages of the 

analysis. 

And those four criteria are the 

technological feasibility -- that is, whether 

they actually improve the energy efficiency 

and have been demonstrated to do so; whether 

they can be manufactured, installed, and 

serviced on the scale necessary at the time 

Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc.

202-234-4433
 

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

Page 39 

that the new standards go into effect; whether 

there might be any adverse impacts on utility 

or availability of certain types of products; 

and whether there are any adverse impacts on 

health or safety. 

Any comments on initial thoughts 

on those technology options and how they might 

be screened? 

(No response.) 

All right. Then, the next stage 

of the preliminary analysis is the engineering 

analysis, and that has an overarching goal of 

determining, for incremental improvements of 

efficiency of the product, what the 

incremental manufacturer cost would be. 

The first step is to define what 

exactly is a baseline model, so that 

incremental increases in efficiency can be 

compared relative to these products. So a 

baseline is defined for each product class, 

and for the existing classes, which we are now 

defining as portable units for which there are 

Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc.

202-234-4433
 

 

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

Page 40 

standards that will shortly be in place, the 

baseline is defined as this upcoming federal 

standard. 

For whole home units, DOE's 

initial proposal is to define the same energy 

factor level as will be the standard for the 

large capacity, and that's the greater than 75 

pint per day units. 

Very interested to know whether 

these are appropriate efficiency levels for 

the analysis, for the baseline, particularly 

for whole home units, because these are newly 

being considered as their own product class. 

And then, further, DOE welcomes any input or 

information on what technologies, designs, 

control strategies, et cetera, would be 

characteristic of a model that just meets the 

baseline level. 

FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Comments 

here? 

(No response.) 

Okay. 

Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc.

202-234-4433
 

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

Page 41

 MS. REICH: Okay? From there, DOE 

determines the cost efficiency relationship, 

and the first step is to determine whether it 

is going to be a design option approach or an 

efficiency level approach. And DOE is 

proposing at this stage to use the design 

option approach in which specific technologies 

are identified, along with their incremental 

efficiency improvement, and layered together 

to determine incrementally higher efficiency 

levels. 

And the reason that this approach 

is being considered is because there are very 

-- the current data suggests there is little 

variation in a given product class in energy 

factors. So there are not a lot of products 

to choose from to use as representatives at 

various efficiency levels. 

So to identify the contributions 

of each of these design options, a selection 

of products will be reverse engineered. They 

will be torn down and examined to see what 

Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc.

202-234-4433
 

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

Page 42 

sort of approaches and designs manufacturers 

are implementing. That will be supplemented 

with testing to look at the various control 

strategies that might be used. 

And, in addition, DOE makes a 

request from manufacturers to submit an 

industry aggregate information on cost at each 

efficiency level. So that cost data will be 

supplemented, where available, with additional 

confidential stakeholder interviews and any 

publicly available data. 

So from that analysis, a cost 

efficiency curve will be generated for each 

product class that is analyzed. 

I am just quickly showing you what 

the various contributors are to the industry 

cost submittal. These are -- there are two 

components to the manufacturer cost. There is 

the full production cost with things like 

direct material, labor, overhead, 

depreciation, and there are also conversion 

costs shown there. 

Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc.

202-234-4433
 

 

 

 

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

Page 43

 So, again, where this information 

is made available to DOE, it is an industry 

aggregate that is shipment-weighted. And for 

reasons of not divulging any business 

proprietary information, where there are fewer 

than three manufacturers that are represented 

in a particular product class, that data would 

not be provided to DOE. 

In addition, DOE requests 

information about the depreciation method that 

manufacturers use to expense their conversion 

capital. 

This request for comment is to 

invite input on the feedback -- input on the 

use of a design option approach for 

determining the cost efficiency relationship. 

FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Yes. 

Jennifer. 

MS. CLEARY: Jen Cleary. I just 

had a question. It's not really directly 

related to that comment, but it is in the 

section where that appears. On page 14 to 15 

Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc.

202-234-4433
 

 

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

Page 44 

of the framework document it says, "DOE notes 

that, should the dehumidifier test procedure 

be revised to capture the benefits of high 

efficiency dehumidifiers, such as those that 

incorporate heat pipe technology, a wider 

range in EF would result." 

I'm just wondering if you could 

expand on what the test procedure revisions 

might be there. Just the sentence I guess was 

a little unclear to us. 

MS. REICH: Well, I think it's not 

that there is any specific revision being 

contemplated right now for the test procedure. 

But if, on the basis of what DOE learns from 

stakeholders during this process that some 

revision would be warranted that would be able 

to capture some real-world benefits that 

aren't currently measured by the test 

procedure, then you might able to see a 

broader differentiation in energy factor. 

FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Don 

Brundage. 

Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc.

202-234-4433
 

 

 

 

 

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

Page 45

 MR. BRUNDAGE: Don Brundage, 

Southern Company. I think I know the answer 

to this, but I was just going to clarify it. 

There are some different technology 

dehumidification systems under development, 

such as desiccant systems. Since those would 

not use a cold plate and would not put out the 

removed moisture in a liquid form, this test 

procedure and this product class would not 

apply to those, would it? 

MS. REICH: The only covered 

products are those that would meet that 

statutory definition. 

MR. BRUNDAGE: So this would be --

a desiccant product would probably be an 

unregulated product with no specific standard 

associated with it until DOE chose to set one. 

MS. REICH: I will let DOE comment 

on that. 

FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Stephen 

Witkowski. 

MR. WITKOWSKI: Well, at this 

Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc.

202-234-4433
 

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

Page 46 

point, we have looked at a number of 

technologies, and the determination is made 

that unless we meet the definition, then, yes, 

it would not be a product that we would 

regulate at this time. 

MR. BRUNDAGE: Thank you. 

FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Yes, 

please. Is it Louis? 

MR. STARR: Yes. Louis Starr with 

NEEA. I was just kind of interested, sort of 

a question or maybe a little bit of a concern. 

On the portable ones that could be ducted, it 

almost seems that that application could also 

be used in a whole house application, 

particularly in a retrofit. 

And if you are increasing the 

efficiency of your whole house option, but 

also leaving the option of a lower standard 

for a portable one that could just be ducted 

in and out of the return, you are not only 

getting less efficient product there, but you 

are also doing some stuff with the fan energy 

Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc.

202-234-4433
 

 

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

Page 47 

that kind of actually increases energy. 

So you might think about that as 

one of the unintended consequences of creating 

that product class. 

FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Okay. 

Thank you. Other comments here? 

(No response.) 

None. Okay. 

MS. REICH: A subset of the 

product classes that were identified are being 

considered for the engineering analysis and 

subsequent LCC and payback period analyses. 

And this is for reasons of having 

a manageable number of product classes to 

analyze, and also, as was -- it is comparable 

to the approach that was taken for room air 

conditioners where certain representative 

product classes were analyzed and then the 

results, because technologies are comparable, 

the results can be extrapolated to the 

remaining product classes. 

So DOE's initial proposal is to 

Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc.

202-234-4433
 

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

Page 48 

analyze the portable product classes that 

represent the most number of -- the greatest 

number of products available -- namely, the 35 

to 45 pints per day, the 45 to 54 pints per 

day, and the 54 to 75 pints per day. 

In addition, because of the very 

different nature of whole home units, DOE 

proposes to analyze that product class as 

well. 

DOE is required -- I'm sorry. 

FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Yes. Don 

Brundage. 

MR. BRUNDAGE: My question on the 

whole home units is right now those would be 

classified the same as the portable and the 

largest size category. Is that correct, under 

the current -- under the current rulemaking 

that is about to go into effect? 

MS. REICH: There is -- I am going 

to let Betsy correct me if I am misspeaking 

here. But I think it is open to 

interpretation whether a whole home unit is 

Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc.

202-234-4433
 

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

Page 49 

currently a covered product. Is that correct? 

MS. KOHL: This is Betsy. We are 

looking into that issue in the context of this 

rulemaking now, whether to establish a 

separate product class for those. 

MR. BRUNDAGE: Well, the key issue 

would be whether anti-backsliding applies to 

it, if it is covered under the current 

rulemaking. 

MS. KOHL: We are fully aware of 

that issue. 

FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Okay. 

Thank you, Don. 

MS. REICH: So DOE is required, as 

one of the efficiency levels that it analyzes, 

to look at the maximum technologically 

feasible or so-called max tech efficiency 

level. In some cases, that is the highest 

efficiency product that is available on the 

market, otherwise known as a max available 

design. 

And in some cases this may not 

Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc.

202-234-4433
1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

Page 50 

truly be a max tech level, if there are design 

options that are feasible but are not yet 

commercially available. So in cases where 

this occurs, DOE will seek stakeholder input 

on resolving the difference between the max 

tech and max available. 

For the purposes of the initial 

proposal, DOE has based the max tech level on 

the maximum available efficiencies for 

products currently on the market. Again, the 

baseline for each of the product classes that 

are intended to be analyzed are shown above 

with those being the 2012 federal standards 

with the whole home product class being the 

standard for the greater than 75 pint per day 

units. 

Efficiency level 1 is the highest 

efficiency that has been identified for 

products currently available in the 35 to 45 

pint per day level -- capacity, excuse me. 

And the -- for 45 and 54 pints per day, that 

is a gap fill level between the federal 

Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc.

202-234-4433
1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

Page 51 

standard and the maximum available energy 

factor. 

In the 54 pints per day to 75 

pints per day, the 1.85 is the Energy Star 

level that will be applicable to units that 

are less than 75 pints per day. Between 75 

pints per day, and I think it's 185, there is 

a second qualification criteria for Energy 

Star, which is the 2.8 which is proposed to be 

used as efficiency level 1 for whole home 

products. 

The maximum available for 54 to 75 

pints per day is the 2.47, and for whole home 

units that maximum available corresponds to 

the highest rated value that DOE's research 

identified. But, again, it is believed that 

that is tested according to the current DOE 

test procedure. 

DOE invites comments and input on 

these efficiency levels, and, in particular, 

are interested to receive input on the max 

tech efficiency levels. 

Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc.

202-234-4433
1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

Page 52

 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Jennifer. 

MS. CLEARY: Jen Cleary. I think 

you clarified it -- could you go back to slide 

43? I think your explanation clarified this a 

little bit, but I think we are just getting a 

little confused in reading the level 1 row. 

So the source says Energy Star, 

but that is actually only really the case for 

the 54 to 75? Okay. 

MS. REICH: Yes. 

MS. CLEARY: The two at the end, 

and then the 35.01 to 45 pints per day, that 

is the max available? 

MS. REICH: That's correct. 

MS. CLEARY: And then the next one 

is the gap fill. Is that --

MS. REICH: Yes. 

MS. CLEARY: -- how it should be? 

Okay. So it is not intended that that whole 

row is actually the Energy Star. 

MS. REICH: That's correct, yes. 

MS. CLEARY: Okay. Thank you. 

Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc.

202-234-4433
1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

Page 53 

And a question is just how -- how did you 

reach the levels that are identified in -- for 

2 and 3? 

MS. REICH: Let's see. So for 

efficiency level 2, for 45 to 54 pints per 

day, again, that was the maximum available 

currently on the market. And so the gap fill 

between 1.6 and 1.8 was a halfway point to 

provide reasonable differentiation. 

The max -- let's see. Well, for 

both 54 and 75 pints per day, and whole home 

units, efficiency level 2 is a gap fill 

between the levels that were based on the 

Energy Star qualification criteria at level 1 

and the maximum available, and those levels 

were chosen based on availability of products 

at or near that gap fill level that could be 

used as the basis of the analysis. 

And then, of course, the maximum 

available were based on certified values for 

those units on the market. 

MS. CLEARY: Thank you. 

Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc.

202-234-4433
 

 

 

 

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

Page 54

 FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Final 

comments on item 5.5? 

(No response.) 

Nothing additional. 

MS. REICH: Okay. So DOE looks at 

all design options that are available in 

products already being sold or have been 

demonstrated in a working prototype, which may 

include designs or technologies that are 

proprietary. 

But those designs are only 

considered for the purposes of the engineering 

analysis as long as there are other means to 

reach the efficiency level that that 

proprietary design can achieve. 

In other words, DOE does not want 

to consider only an approach, only an 

efficiency that can be reached by means of 

this one unique pathway. And, therefore, the 

confidentiality in proprietary business 

information can -- for manufacturers can be 

maintained. 

Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc.

202-234-4433
 

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

Page 55

 So the request for comment is, are 

there any proprietary designs or technologies 

for dehumidifiers that DOE should be aware of 

in conducting this rulemaking? And, if so, 

how should DOE acquire cost data necessary to 

evaluate those designs? 

FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Nothing 

additional? Yes, Joanna. 

MS. MAUER: Joanna Mauer. Sorry. 

This is a comment going back to the request 

for comment on the efficiency levels. Just an 

observation. I think on the -- for the whole 

home category, it seems to be a pretty big 

jump from level 1 to level 2, and also level 2 

to level 3. 

And there may be kind of a 

technology jump at some point, but we might 

encourage DOE to perhaps add one or two 

additional efficiency levels, especially for 

that whole home category, just because it is 

-- you know, they are big jumps right now it 

seems like. 

Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc.

202-234-4433
 

 

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

Page 56

 MS. REICH: 

FACILITATOR 

Thank you. 

BROOKMAN: Other 

comments here? 

(No response.) 

Okay. 

MS. REICH: Okay. And then, 

finally, there is some overlap here with the 

topic of looking at the impact of regulatory 

changes in the engineering analysis as well as 

the manufacturer impact analysis. 

But the intent is to consider the 

impact on manufacturers that are subject to 

multiple regulatory changes at the same time 

in addition to this dehumidifier standards 

rulemaking. 

And as many of you are aware, 

there are recent standards that -- for 

dishwashers and clothes washers that will go 

into effect, unless DOE decides otherwise in 

the next week, and there were also in 2011 new 

standards that came out in a final rule for 

clothes dryers and room air conditioners. 

Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc.

202-234-4433
 

 

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

Page 57

 In addition, you know, some other 

issues that manufacturers may have to deal 

with is the RoHS topic, and so the request for 

comment would be, are there any other 

regulatory issues that DOE should consider? 

FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Don 

Brundage. 

(Off-mic comment.) 

FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Thank you. 

MS. REICH: And actually, I would 

be interested, if you could clarify, are these 

local building codes or state building codes 

that are driving this? 

MR. BRUNDAGE: Well, the IECC 

code. And if you want a point of reference, 

there has been a lot of consideration of this 

in the Florida -- Florida Solar Energy Center 

has done a lot of research on this and related 

to -- they have considered this in local 

customization of their Florida building codes 

for making adjustments to the IECC. 

They were considering at one time 

Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc.

202-234-4433
 

 

 

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

Page 58 

requiring supplemental dehumidification in 

certain very humid areas of the state. I 

don't know what became of that, but at one 

time that was under active consideration to 

require supplemental dehumidification as part 

of their building code. 

MS. REICH: Thank you for that 

information. 

Okay. If there are no more 

comments on other regulatory issues, I will 

turn it over to Ben Barrington, who will 

discuss the preliminary manufacturer impact 

analysis. 

MR. BARRINGTON: Thanks very much, 

Judy. Ben Barrington with Navigant 

Consulting. If you were here earlier, I 

presented on the manufacturing impact analysis 

for commercial clothes washers, which is 

remarkably similar to this, except for the 

fact that in that rulemaking we are going 

straight to NOPR, and in this we have two 

phases. 

Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc.

202-234-4433
 

 

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

Page 59

 We have a preliminary manufacturer 

impact analysis followed by a NOPR phase 

manufacturer impact analysis, both of which I 

will present at this point in time in the 

interest of me not getting up and down more 

than once. 

As mentioned earlier, the 

manufacturer impact analysis satisfies two of 

the seven requirements put forth by EPCA in 

terms of economic justification for an amended 

efficiency standard, those being the impact 

directly to manufacturers as well as the 

potential of any lessening of competition 

within the industry in question. 

Additionally, there are some finer 

points on the methods and procedures used in 

the manufacturer impact analysis in the report 

listed in the link at the bottom of this 

slide. 

Where we do a full-scale 

rulemaking that includes both the preliminary 

analysis phase and the NOPR phase, we break 

Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc.

202-234-4433
 

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

Page 60 

things out into six distinct steps for the 

manufacturer impact analysis. Again, starting 

with the industry profile in which we build 

off of a lot of the information collected 

during the market and tech assessment, 

identifying both current and past industry 

structures, and trends that we see carrying 

forward. 

Additionally, we look through 

public records, 10Ks, annual reports that are 

publicly available for each of the constituent 

manufacturers, and develop industry average 

financial parameters that we then later use in 

our government regulatory impact model. 

At this point in time, we also dig 

through manufacturer databases and try to 

identify any particular manufacturer subgroups 

that we think merit special consideration in 

terms of them potentially seeing different 

impacts of -- excuse me, impacts of a 

different magnitude than other manufacturers. 

As we are doing the preliminary 

Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc.

202-234-4433
 

 

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

Page 61 

analysis phase, we do a first round of 

interviews with manufacturers in conjunction 

with the pre-NOPR phase engineering analysis 

interviews, and this allows us to identify 

some of the key issues that we see 

manufacturers facing, as well as develop or 

inform our preliminary analysis, which 

primarily relates to understanding how 

manufacturing capital might change in this 

industry as a result of new standards. 

From there, in the second phase of 

the preliminary analysis, we tailor our 

government regulatory impact model, which is a 

discounted cashflow model of future cashflows 

for the industry, as a result of or in light 

of information gained in the first round of 

interviews. And then, we use this framework 

to determine what other types of information 

we would need to carry out the full analysis. 

With that information, or with 

that understanding of the information gap, we 

develop interview guides to take back to 

Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc.

202-234-4433
 

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

Page 62 

manufacturers to complete our analysis. 

And these topics include key 

issues, questions about market share, markup 

structure for the -- for their first 

customers, the shipments analysis, verifying 

our assumptions that went into developing the 

financial parameters that we had earlier, how 

capital and non-capital expenditures might be 

made in light of new efficiency standards, as 

well as the cumulative regulatory burden, 

impacts to direct employment, manufacturing 

capacity, as well as competitive effects and 

how those might play out on manufacturer 

subgroups. 

Sorry I haven't been pausing for 

questions, but if anyone has anything, please 

feel free to speak up. 

(No response.) 

Okay. Okay. With those guides 

circulated, we conduct interviews with 

manufacturers that are protected by a nondisclosure agreement between the manufacturer 

Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc.

202-234-4433
 

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

Page 63 

and Navigant Consulting, and we maintain those 

records in confidence. 

The information gathered in those 

interviews is then aggregated up to an 

industry representative depiction of what the 

impacts might be with new efficiency standards 

in place as to anonymize the information and 

maintain that confidentiality. From there, we 

populate our model and quantitatively assess 

the impacts to the industry net present value, 

as well as cumulative regulatory burden and 

the effects on competition and those other 

factors that I earlier described. 

At this point in time, the sort of 

preliminary analysis that we have done to date 

indicates that there are five -- or 

potentially five small business manufacturers 

of residential dehumidifiers. And if I am not 

mistaken, the Small Business Association 

defines a small business as anyone employing 

fewer than 500 employees. 

Additionally, we anticipate that 

Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc.

202-234-4433
 

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

Page 64 

there would be some cumulative regulatory 

burden borne of other efficiency standards 

from DOE, including those for dishwashers, 

clothes washers, clothes dryers, and room ACs, 

both existing and upcoming rulemakings in that 

regard, as well as the EPA-mandated phase out 

of HCFCs and the RoHS directive. 

And with that, we are requesting 

comment on any potential manufacturer 

subgroups that we haven't yet considered 

outside of small businesses, if anyone cares 

to comment on that. 

(No response.) 

No? Okay. And also, just in 

terms of doing our own due diligence, we feel 

that people in the industry themselves might 

be aware of other small businesses that could 

be affected by this rulemaking that we may not 

have uncovered. So if anyone can provide 

names and contact information, that would be 

greatly appreciated as well, and we are happy 

to take that here or after, as always. 

Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc.

202-234-4433
1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

Page 65

 All right. So I am going to take 

us out to the break really quickly. So in 

terms of cumulative regulatory burden, if 

there is anything beyond that list of three or 

those three types of regulations that we think 

might impact the industry, we also welcome 

comment on that. 

All right. I'll turn it back to 

Doug. 

FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Thank you. 

Do you want to take a break now, or do you 

want to keep going for a little bit longer? 

Let's break. Okay. Let's try and make it 

back here for real in 15 minutes. All right? 

That means we'll start on the dot at 2:30 

according to that watch. 

Very good this morning; we are 

being very disciplined today. See you back 

here to start up. Wear your badges in the 

hallway, please. The restrooms are on both 

ends of the halls. If you are going to go 

grab some beverage, do it quickly. We'll see 

Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc.

202-234-4433
 

 

 

 

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

Page 66 

you back here shortly. 

(Whereupon, the above-entitled 

matter went off the record at 2:14 p.m., and 

resumed at 2:29 p.m.) 

FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: So we're 

going to proceed. Ladies and gentlemen, we 

are going to proceed, and we are going to hear 

next from Camilla Dunham Whitehead. 

MS. DUNHAM WHITEHEAD: Good 

afternoon. My name is Camilla Dunham 

Whitehead, and I want to thank you all for 

being here today and showing interest in the 

dehumidifier standards rulemaking. I want to 

thank Judy and Ben for their earlier 

presentations. 

I am going to be talking about two 

main analyses in the preliminary analysis 

phase of this standards rulemaking, and then I 

am going to -- after I conclude the national 

impact analysis, I will touch on six analyses 

that will be conducted during the NOPR phase, 

or the Notice of Proposed Rule phase. 

Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc.

202-234-4433
 

 

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

Page 67

 So I am going to start with the 

LCC and payback period analysis and talk about 

two key inputs into that analysis. For those 

of you who were here this morning, this will 

all sound very familiar. These analyses, as 

you know, are applicable to numerous different 

products and equipment. 

I am going to talk about the lifecycle cost and payback period. The life-cycle 

cost is the total cost of owning in this case 

a dehumidifier over the lifetime of that 

product, and that includes both operating and 

installed costs. The first thing that I will 

talk about is the markups, which is part of 

the total installed cost. 

Markups are multipliers that 

convert manufacturing cost into consumer 

product price. And consumer product price 

data is important as inputs into the lifecycle cost analyses and also into the national 

impact analysis. So DOE looks at the 

distribution chain of the dehumidifier to see 

Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc.

202-234-4433
1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

Page 68 

what sorts of markups will be needed to 

transform the manufacturer cost into the 

consumer price. 

The latest AHAM Fact Book reports 

that 93 percent of most consumer products move 

from the manufacturer directly to the retailer 

where they are sold to the consumer. So DOE 

has assumed that there are three parties along 

this distribution channel that it should 

consider. 

For the markups, for manufacturing 

costs, DOE looks at the Securities and 

Exchange Commission 10K reports that are filed 

by publicly traded manufacturers. For the 

retailer markup, DOE looks at the SEC 10K 

reports for publicly traded retailers in 

addition to U.S. Census Bureau data. 

As a part of the retailer markup, 

too, we look at the sales tax that consumers 

would pay, and we get information about the 

sales tax from the Sales Tax Clearinghouse. 

So DOE plans to use retail price 

Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc.

202-234-4433
1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

Page 69 

data to validate the overall manufacturer-toconsumer markup. Markups enable DOE to use 

retail prices in the calculation of first 

costs, which, as I mentioned to you earlier, 

is one of the primary inputs into the LCC and 

payback period analysis. 

You have seen these requests for 

comments. You will see them also throughout 

my presentation. The comments are directed --

direct stakeholders to provide input to DOE 

based on the purpose of the analysis, the 

approach that DOE intends to use, data sources 

that DOE intends to use, and also as an 

opportunity to provide information to DOE. 

So I am moving into the energy use 

characterization. Energy use is a part of the 

lifetime operating expenses portion of the LCC 

analysis. For the LCC, DOE establishes annual 

energy consumption and assesses energy savings 

potential of various product efficiencies. 

You heard about some of those product 

efficiency levels in the presentation by Judy 

Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc.

202-234-4433
 

 

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

Page 70 

earlier. 

DOE will potentially analyze six 

product classes that you see here in the green 

box on this slide. DOE recognizes that energy 

use varies across households depending on the 

product's characteristics and also how the 

product is used. 

With databases from the Energy 

Information Administration, the California 

Energy Commission, in conjunction with 

engineering analysis results, DOE will develop 

annual energy use for each U.S. household that 

has a dehumidifier. 

For the 2007 dehumidifier 

preliminary analysis, insufficient household 

data was available to enable DOE to really 

examine things on a household level, so AHAM 

provided data about capacity usage and energy 

use on a month -- on an hourly basis over a 

12-month period. 

DOE hopes to improve upon the 2007 

estimates of energy consumption and usage with 

Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc.

202-234-4433
1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

Page 71 

current -- for the current rulemaking with 

more recent reports, research reports, and 

information provided by stakeholders. 

For dehumidifiers, annual energy 

use is calculated by multiplying capacity by 

the hours of operation and dividing the 

product of those two quantities by the energy 

efficiency of the device. 

So I'm referring, you can see 

here, to this equation. So capacity -- the 

units for capacity are pints of moisture 

removed from the air. Hours are the number of 

hours that the dehumidifier is in operation in 

a 24-hour period. And then, efficiency is the 

liters of moisture removed per unit of energy 

consumed. 

We have repeated that calculation 

using the data sources that we hope to use for 

each of those different quantities. 

Here is a request for comment. 

Again, DOE seeks comment on its proposed 

approach for determining energy use and also 

Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc.

202-234-4433
 

 

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

Page 72 

on the sources that it intends to use. DOE 

also requests any information or data 

stakeholders may have that would help in its 

characterization of energy use. 

FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Comments 

here? Don Brundage. 

MR. BRUNDAGE: I've got a general 

comment that I'm not sure where is the best 

place to get it in, so I might as well do it 

here. For whole house dehumidifiers, they are 

essentially a supplement to increase the 

dehumidification capability of a whole house 

air conditioner unit. 

And I don't know that -- it would 

be nice if there was an alternative to having 

a separate, totally independent system to be 

an integrated system. How you would do that 

without violating the anti-backsliding on the 

standard air conditioning products rule, I 

don't know. 

But it just seems to me that if 

you had an integrated product to provide 

Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc.

202-234-4433
 

 

 

 

 

 

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

Page 73 

supplemental dehumidification you could do, 

combined across both functions, 

more efficiently than establishing an entirely 

separate system. 

I think the Department needs to 

consider if there is some possible way to 

define a product to do that, which I think 

would save more energy in total than playing 

around with how you 

dehumidification system 

efficient. 

make 

slightly 

a separate 

more 

Thank you. 

FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Thanks, 

Don. Other comments here? Yes, please. 

Julia. 

MS. FARBER: Julia Farber from UL. 

I was just wondering, can you just define for 

me one more time what characterizes as a 

household, how you're defining it here? 

MS. DUNHAM WHITEHEAD: What 

characterizes --

MS. FARBER: Sorry. How are you 

Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc.

202-234-4433
 

 

 

 

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

Page 74 

defining a household? Is it --

MS. DUNHAM WHITEHEAD: Well, 

actually, what we use is the Energy 

Information Administration's Residential 

Energy Consumption Survey. And so we use RECS 

as the -- sort of the basic household sample. 

And so how the government currently defines a 

household in terms of that particular survey 

is how we will continue -- we will continue 

that on through our consumer analysis. 

FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Yes, 

Joanna. 

MS. MAUER: Joanna Mauer. On the 

previous slide where you showed the equation 

for calculating energy use, the dehumidifier 

efficiency, would that be the rated efficiency 

or -- so at the -- efficiency at the rating --

the rated conditions based on the current test 

procedure? 

MS. DUNHAM WHITEHEAD: That would 

be information, yes, in a sense that we would 

get from the engineering analysis. 

Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc.

202-234-4433
 

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

Page 75

 MS. MAUER: Okay. 

MS. DUNHAM WHITEHEAD: And we 

would use a range of efficiencies that would 

be appropriate for that product class, and 

then assign them to the household based on a 

Monte Carlo simulation, which I will get into 

in a little bit. 

MS. MAUER: So I guess based on 

the current test procedure, if, you know, 

field conditions are typically lower ambient 

temperature and relative humidity, the kind of 

energy factors and efficiencies we would see 

in the field would -- I think would --

typically may be significantly lower than what 

we see out of the test procedure. 

So I think if -- I mean, we would 

also encourage DOE to consider amending the 

test procedure. But kind of based on the 

current test procedure, it looks like this 

energy use calculation may significantly 

underestimate annual dehumidifier energy use, 

if it is based on the rated conditions. 

Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc.

202-234-4433
 

 

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

Page 76

 MS. DUNHAM WHITEHEAD: We will 

take into consideration field measurements 

through published reports that could be 

considered as sort of a range that is 

appropriate for that particular capacity unit 

or product class. 

FACILITATOR 

Additional comments here? 

BROOKMAN: Okay. 

(No response.) 

MS. DUNHAM WHITEHEAD: Okay. So 

now I am going to talk more fully about the 

life-cycle cost and payback period analysis. 

I am going to talk again -- I'm showing you 

this slide again. After I talk about the 

purpose and approach of the LCC and payback 

period, I will go more into the inputs in the 

second and third columns on this flowchart. 

So the life-cycle cost analysis 

establishes the total cost of dehumidifiers 

over their lifetime, and the payback period 

analysis determines the amount of time 

required for the energy cost savings to pay 

Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc.

202-234-4433
 

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

Page 77 

back any increased cost from a higher 

efficiency. 

We do both of these analyses using 

an Excel spreadsheet. The savings that are 

quantified are then discounted to a base year, 

typically the year that the NOPR is conducted, 

the Notice of Proposed Rule. 

You see here a graphic that shows 

the two major inputs, the first costs and 

operating costs into the consumer lifetime 

cost. There will be a baseline established 

and a standard, and the difference between the 

two would show the LCC impact. 

DOE conducts the LCC using a Monte 

Carlo simulation. A Monte Carlo simulation 

and probability distributions model both the 

uncertainties and variabilities of the inputs, 

enabling DOE to look at -- to identify 

percentages of consumers who benefit from or 

who are negatively impacted by a proposed 

standard. 

Each Monte Carlo simulation 

Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc.

202-234-4433
 

 

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

Page 78 

represents 10,000 calculations of life-cycle 

cost and payback period, which reduces the 

error brought in by uncertainty or 

variability. And as I just mentioned earlier, 

the Energy Information Administration 

publishes the Residential Energy Consumption 

Survey, and that sample forms the basis of the 

energy use characterization from the house --

from the consumer perspective. 

Each product class is analyzed 

separately, and there is a base case 

efficiency distribution that would -- that I 

will get into in a later slide, but that 

characterizes the mix of efficiencies that are 

in use in the nation in a given year of this 

-- of the analysis period. 

Here is a sample slide. This is 

from the dishwasher LCC analysis. You notice 

that in the upper graph there is the number 

10,000. That is the number of LCC runs for 

this Monte Carlo simulation. The thick blue 

line is -- rests at zero and represents the 

Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc.

202-234-4433
 

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

Page 79 

no-impact line. Everything to the right of 

the line is a benefit, and to the left of the 

line in red is not a benefit. 

The dotted blue line is the 

average life-cycle cost savings, and that is 

$17 here. That $17 you can pick up down below 

in the table. It is shown there as 16.8. The 

other numbers to take note of in the table are 

the no impact and the net benefit, which 

together summed equal about 68 percent 

receiving no impact from the standard or a 

benefit from the standard. Conversely, the 32 

percent number is that percentage of 

households who are negatively impacted by the 

standard. 

The request for comment on the 

proposed approach, and also a data request to 

characterize the current mix of dehumidifier 

efficiencies. 

FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: No comments 

here? 

(No response.) 

Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc.

202-234-4433
 

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

Page 80

 MS. DUNHAM WHITEHEAD: Okay. So 

now I am transitioning to the second and third 

columns on the flowchart, and I will start 

with electricity prices. Electricity prices, 

combined with energy use, will show how much 

any given household will need to spend on 

energy to operate its dehumidifier at a given 

efficiency level. 

DOE uses the EIA Form 861, which 

provides electricity utility data, and DOE 

will estimate average electricity prices using 

the EIA data covering 13 geographical areas, 

nine census divisions, plus four large states. 

For future savings, DOE uses electricity 

price projections to residential consumers as 

reported in EIA's Annual Energy Outlook. DOE 

requests input on the planned approach for 

using -- for estimating current and projected 

electricity prices. 

As we did this morning, we are 

covering three inputs here. Installation 

costs are part of the first costs and the two 

Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc.

202-234-4433
 

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

Page 81 

primary inputs into the LCC. Maintenance and 

repair costs are part of that -- lifetime 

operating expenses. 

We have grouped all three of them 

here together, because DOE assumes that there 

are no additional costs from installation, 

maintenance, or repair related to a higher 

efficiency unit. So DOE also requests comment 

on that assumption and information or data 

where that is relevant as well. 

FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Thoughts on 

that? 

(No response.) 

MS. DUNHAM WHITEHEAD: Okay. On 

to product lifetime. DOE will use information 

from available literature sources, as well as 

any inputs from stakeholders, as to product 

lifetime. Appliance Magazine is one source of 

information. If stakeholders have other 

suggestions for product lifetime, we would be 

happy to have that information. 

FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Additional 

Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc.

202-234-4433
 

 

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

Page 82 

sources? 

(No response.) 

Okay. 

MS. DUNHAM WHITEHEAD: The 

discount rates -- Can you all hear me in the 

back? 

FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: I think 

that will work. It's on. 

(Pause.) 

MS. DUNHAM WHITEHEAD: It's going 

to make me break into song --

(Laughter.) 

-- which would be a problem. 

Okay. Discount rates -- discount 

rates are the last of the inputs that I will 

discuss here. DOE uses discount rates to 

determine the present value of lifetime 

operating expenses that occur into the future. 

The approach for dehumidifiers is 

consistent to other product rulemakings, but, 

to summarize, DOE estimates that interest or 

finance costs to purchase a dehumidifier, 

Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc.

202-234-4433
 

 

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

Page 83 

these can be seen as the cost of raising funds 

to buy a product from the financial costs from 

debt incurred or opportunity costs from equity 

used. 

Much of the data required for the 

discount rate determination comes from the 

Federal Reserve Board's publication Survey of 

Consumer Finances. 

And here is a comment box 

requesting input on the planned approach for 

estimating discount rates. 

Okay. The last thing that I will 

cover here in the life cycle is the base case 

efficiency distribution. Just to make it 

clear, it is important that DOE -- that DOE 

recognizes that all of the dehumidifiers 

currently at use in the field now in people's 

homes aren't of uniform efficiency level. 

And so DOE will attempt to 

characterize that mix of efficiencies that are 

currently in use, and that is what we call the 

base case efficiency. And that is to avoid 

Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc.

202-234-4433
 

 

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

Page 84 

overcounting benefits of a higher standard. 

So this comment requests input on 

the proposed approach and also any information 

or data that would help DOE characterize that 

base case efficiency distribution. 

Okay. So we are back to this 

orienting slide of the chevrons. I am moving 

into the second input into the national impact 

analysis, which is the shipments analysis. 

The purpose of the shipments analysis is to 

estimate the impact of appliance shipments 

caused by potential new efficiency standards. 

The method relies on the 

development of a shipments model, which is 

based on a variety of sources and includes 

historical shipments data. The shipments 

model considers only the products that are 

covered by this particular rulemaking, which 

in this case is residential dehumidifiers. 

The shipments model provides two 

main functions. The first is a projection of 

shipments during each year that the standard 

Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc.

202-234-4433
 

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

Page 85 

is in effect, and the second purpose is to 

account for the total inventory or stock of 

appliances that are in service in the nation 

for any given year in the analysis period. 

Furthermore, the model keeps track 

of the age of the stock, so that the vintagedependent appliance energy use and operating 

costs can be accurately assigned. So when I 

use the words "vintage-dependent" here, I mean 

the distribution of efficiencies that were 

present in that given year. 

So the first step in the shipments 

analysis will be to protect appliance 

shipments under the base case, and that means 

the case when no new standards are adopted. 

Under the base case, shipments will be 

projected for two primary markets -- new 

construction and then units shipped as 

replacements for failed equipment. 

Shipments to new -- the new 

construction market will be estimated by 

multiplying projections of new housing stock 

Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc.

202-234-4433
 

 

 

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

Page 86 

-- new housing starts, sorry -- by historical 

rates of product ownership or product 

saturation rates. 

DOE will get the projections for 

new housing starts from the Energy 

Information's Annual Energy Outlook. And the 

RECS and the AHAM Fact Book -- the Residential 

Energy Consumption Survey and the AHAM Fact 

Book provide input that DOE can use as product 

saturation rates. 

The shipments' projections will be 

calibrated to the historical shipments data by 

first determining the discrepancy between the 

historical projections that we will call 

"backcasts" and the shipments data. DOE plans 

to attribute any discrepancy between the two 

to early replacement. 

Replacement shipments will be 

estimated by applying product retirement 

functions to existing product stock in the 

overall housing stock. Retirement functions 

will be based on the product lifetime 

Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc.

202-234-4433
 

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

Page 87 

estimates developed in the LCC and payback 

period analysis and from historical shipments 

data. 

Known sources for the historical 

shipments are Appliance Magazine and the AHAM 

Fact Book. Requests also will be made to 

stakeholders for information and input. 

Yes? 

MR. BRUNDAGE: Don Brundage, 

Southern Company. Continuing on my earlier 

comment, if you will drop back to the slide 

before this, it is really just with the last 

couple of versions of the IECC code that it 

has become a real issue on increasing the need 

for supplemental dehumidification. And most 

jurisdictions didn't adopt those until about 

2009. 

So I would caution you against 

doing a long-term linear trend, pay special 

attention to the most recent couple of years, 

because it may have a different pattern than 

earlier. I realize with very few housing 

Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc.

202-234-4433
 

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

Page 88 

starts the last few years that is problematic, 

but I would expect to see different behavior 

the last few years than in earlier years. 

MS. DUNHAM WHITEHEAD: Okay. 

Thank you. 

FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Thank you. 

Yes, and Louis. 

MR. STARR: Louis Starr with NEEA. 

The other aspect -- and I think in your 

shipment direction, it does sound like you are 

somewhere in there also including units on a 

refurbished -- or retrofitting existing units, 

or sometimes when people put in new units in a 

house they go ahead -- they are usually sold 

on things like humidifiers and all kinds of 

things. 

So to the extent that you are 

capturing that in your shipment projections --

it sounds like you are, but just want to 

confirm that. 

MS. DUNHAM WHITEHEAD: Yes. We 

try to capture both the new construction or 

Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc.

202-234-4433
 

 

 

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

Page 89 

first units and then also the replacement 

units. And if I am understanding you 

correctly --

MR. STARR: Well, it says "failed 

units." You never had one in the first place, 

you didn't have a failure, right? 

MS. DUNHAM WHITEHEAD: That's 

correct. 

MR. STARR: Okay. 

MS. DUNHAM WHITEHEAD: So --

MR. STARR: Do you see what I'm 

saying? 

FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Yes. And 

you're suggesting the configuration may be 

different for it, right? 

MR. STARR: Well, for --

FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: For a 

replacement unit. 

MR. STARR: Yes. For instance, 

when you buy a new air conditioner, you might 

buy an air filter, and you may not have had 

one in your first one, in the same way you 

Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc.

202-234-4433
 

 

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

Page 90 

might buy a humidifier or dehumidifier for 

your house, because you are replacing a unit. 

And I think you can speak to that 

one, right, yourself? So --

MS. DUNHAM WHITEHEAD: Yes. 

MR. STARR: -- it's a very common 

thing that people will -- it won't -- you 

won't have -- the unit won't have failed, and 

you won't have a new house. You will have an 

existing house that you will add this unit to, 

and I think that's a very popular item that 

happens. 

MS. DUNHAM WHITEHEAD: Yes. I 

think that that's important to characterize. 

FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Don 

Brundage. 

MR. BRUNDAGE: I would also point 

out the third thing is retrofit into existing 

construction. And one of the reasons you have 

this is if you have an older generation air 

conditioner, they tended to, for single speed 

units, to have better dehumidification 

Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc.

202-234-4433
 

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

Page 91 

performance among older SEER8, SEER10 units, 

than new minimum efficiency units. 

So someone may have been adequate 

on dehumidification on their old, inefficient 

unit. They get a new unit in and find 

objectionable levels of internal humidity and 

feel the need to go in and put in a 

supplemental system. So there's three sources 

of shipments, and it is real. I have -- we 

are hearing in the market about people doing 

retrofit of supplemental dehumidification 

systems in existing homes. 

Thank you. 

FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Thank you. 

Okay. Helpful comments. Joanna. 

MS. MAUER: Joanna Mauer. Just a 

followup, Don. Is there any data available on 

that trend that you're seeing? Because I 

think AHRI did look into this issue of whether 

there is some correlation between SEER and 

basically sensible heat ratio. And I thought 

they found that there in fact was basically no 

Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc.

202-234-4433
1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

Page 92 

correlation. 

MR. BRUNDAGE: There is not any 

correlation on the current new products in the 

market. The older products that are being 

retired now tended to have very cold 

temperatures on the internal -- in the 

condenser. It's anecdotal. I don't have any 

data, but we have seen a lot of examples of 

that. 

FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Thank you. 

MS. DUNHAM WHITEHEAD: Okay. Here 

is a data sheet that stakeholders can use to 

fill in shipments information. As you can 

see, we go back to a 1997 year, but we 

wouldn't be opposed to receiving earlier data 

as well. For the different -- and you can see 

across the different columns the different 

potential product classes that are considered 

at this point. 

So after developing our base case 

shipments projections, we then need to develop 

standards case shipments projections, and that 

Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc.

202-234-4433
 

 

 

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

Page 93 

assumes that a standard -- a new standard has 

been adopted. 

The standards case shipments 

projection is developed in much the same way 

as the base case's shipments projection, but 

with one important difference, and that is 

that we account for the purchase price 

increases and the operating cost savings that 

would be due to any standard to estimate any 

changes to the base case shipments 

projections. 

If we are not able to obtain data 

that show how appliance shipments are affected 

by purchase price or operating costs, we may 

project standards case shipments with 

scenarios that assume certain drops in annual 

shipments for particular standards levels. 

And, finally, we will incorporate 

any impacts from market-pull programs, such as 

Energy Star or tax credits on projected 

standards case shipments. 

DOE has collected the request for 

Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc.

202-234-4433
 

 

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

Page 94 

comments for the shipments analysis on this 

slide. Again, DOE requests comment on the 

approach that it proposes to use, the data 

sources that it proposes to use, and also 

requests information or data that will help in 

developing the shipments model. 

FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Anything 

additional at this time? 

(No response.) 

Okay. 

MS. DUNHAM WHITEHEAD: Okay. So 

now we are going to cover the last analysis in 

the preliminary phase of the standards 

rulemaking, and then I will touch briefly on 

six analyses that will be covered in the next 

phase of the standards rulemaking. 

The purpose of the national impact 

analysis is to estimate the energy savings and 

economic inputs that may result from a 

standard. National energy savings and 

economic inputs are calculated on an annual 

basis before being summed into a cumulative 

Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc.

202-234-4433
 

 

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

Page 95 

value. 

The NIA uses a model that 

incorporates projections of product shipments 

and then tracks the inventory of dehumidifiers 

that is in service in the nation for any given 

year. Each year, as new appliances are 

shipped and old appliances are retired, the 

analysis adds and subtracts appliances to the 

existing stock. Thus, the model estimates the 

historical, current, and projected stock of 

dehumidifiers in the nation. 

The NIA also employs the per unit 

total installed cost and per unit annual 

energy consumption developed in the LCC 

analysis and aggregates these costs and energy 

use values based on the vintage of the stock. 

Energy savings are defined in 

terms of quads saved; that is, quadrillion or 

10 to the 15 BTUs saved. While energy use in 

the LCC analysis is determined at the site 

level -- that is, the building or household 

where the dehumidifier is used -- the NIA 

Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc.

202-234-4433
1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

Page 96 

calculates the energy use at the source. And 

I will touch on that a little bit in a later 

slide. 

The economic impact is defined in 

terms of the national net present value or NPV 

and is calculated in dollars. Because the 

standard is an effect over several years, we 

discount the value of future savings in order 

to estimate the present value of the national 

impact using a discount rate. 

So this is a slide similar to the 

one that Maithili used this morning. You can 

see that the shipments analysis produces two 

different chains -- a base case projection and 

a standards case projection -- starting -- the 

calculations begin in the year 2019, the 

assumed effective date of the standard, and go 

30 years to -- through 2048. 

So then those annual savings are 

summed together to produce a base case 

cumulative energy use value and a standards 

case cumulative energy use value. 

Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc.

202-234-4433
 

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

Page 97

 The difference between the base 

case and standards case cumulative energy 

consumption is the savings, the cumulative 

energy savings. And at this point in the 

calculation, there is a site-to-source 

conversion that takes place that I mentioned 

that I would get into a little bit more in a 

later slide. 

So the difference between those 

two values with a site-to-source conversion 

results in the national energy savings. 

Here is a similar flowchart for 

the national economic impacts or the net 

present value. As with the calculation of 

national energy savings, base case and 

standards case shipments are projected from 

the time the standard takes effect through 30 

years. 

So we look at the economic impacts 

for the costs of electricity, repair, and 

maintenance, and total equipment. We sum them 

together on an annual basis, and then sum the 

Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc.

202-234-4433
 

 

 

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

Page 98 

energy cost and the repair and maintenance 

cost together to yield the cumulative 

operating cost savings. And we summed the 

total equipment costs to -- on the annual 

basis for a cumulative total equipment cost 

increase. 

The difference between the base 

case and standards case cumulative operating 

costs yields, as I said, the cumulative 

operating cost savings, and then also, 

similarly, the total equipment cost increase. 

The difference between the 

cumulative operating cost savings and the 

total -- the cumulative total equipment cost 

increase, if the -- I'm sorry, let me restate 

this. If the cumulative operating cost 

savings is greater than the total equipment 

cost increase, then the nation experiences a 

net benefit to the possible standard level. 

If the operating cost savings is less than the 

total equipment cost increase, then the nation 

experiences a net burden from the proposed 

Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc.

202-234-4433
 

 

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

Page 99 

standard. 

Okay. So this next slide covers 

the need for historical shipment weighted 

efficiency data. It is a key input into the 

national impact analysis. Key inputs into the 

NIA are dependent on shipment-weighted 

efficiency data. 

For example, per unit annual 

energy consumption data are used to determine 

the national energy savings. And equipment 

retail price and per unit annual operating 

costs, as I just showed you in the slide, in 

the flowchart, are used to determine the net 

present value. 

Historical trends of the shipmentweighted efficiencies are used to determine 

future equipment efficiencies for the base 

case. Additionally, market share efficiency 

data help determine the impact to base case 

shipment-weighted efficiencies. 

Data sources include the AHAM Fact 

Book, which reports shipment-weighted 

Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc.

202-234-4433
1 

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

Page 100 

efficiencies for all dehumidifiers. And 

because DOE runs its analyses based on the 

product classes, it requests shipment-weighted 

efficiencies broken out by product class. 

Here is another data request form 

that shows tentative efficiency levels within 

each of the product classes. 

On August 18, 2011, DOE published 

a Notice of Policy stating its intention to 

incorporate the full fuel cycle metric into 

the cost-benefit analysis. The methodology is 

based on the calculation of an FFC or full 

fuel cycle multiplier for each of the primary 

fuels used by the product, which in this case 

would be electricity. And further discussion 

and presentation will be made of the full fuel 

cycle in the technical support document for 

the preliminary analysis. 

So here are two requests for 

comment -- again, requesting comment on the 

planned approach and also for information and 

data. 

Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc.

202-234-4433
 

 

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

Page 101

 Okay. So this -- I am moving 

beyond the preliminary analysis into the NOPR, 

Notice of Proposed Rule, analyses. And as I 

said earlier, I will touch on six analyses 

here. I will go through the purpose very 

briefly and the proposed method. 

So this shows the orientation in 

some of the analyses -- or the analyses that I 

will touch on here. I just want to note that 

Ben already talked about the manufacturer 

impact analysis earlier this afternoon. 

So the first analysis that I will 

cover is the life-cycle cost subgroup 

analysis, and the purpose of this particular 

analysis is to look at different consumer 

populations that may be disproportionately 

affected by the standard. 

The method used is identical to 

the LCC determination for the general 

population, but we just use a sample that is 

dedicated to that particular subgroup when 

running the analyses. 

Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc.

202-234-4433
1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

Page 102

 Our request for comment will 

follow each of my presentation of these six 

analyses, and, again, DOE is looking for 

comment on the proposed approach. 

So on to the utility impact 

analysis. The purpose of the utility impact 

analysis is to assess the impact of standards 

on energy suppliers. The method that DOE has 

used and proposes to use for this rulemaking 

is to use a variant of NEMS -- National Energy 

Modeling System -- called -- the variant is 

called NEMS-BT. And we modify the NEMS so 

that we are able to analyze the effect of the 

appliance standard. 

I am going through these a little 

quickly here because they will come up again 

in the -- after the preliminary phase. They 

will become more relevant in the NOPR phase of 

the standard rulemaking. Here is a request 

for comment on the utility impact analysis. 

So for the employment impact 

analysis, its purpose is to assess the overall 

Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc.

202-234-4433
 

 

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

Page 103 

impact on the national employment from 

standards. Employment impacts are analyzed 

both as direct impacts and indirect impacts. 

Ben covered direct impacts. The employment 

analysis -- impact analysis at this stage 

looks at indirect impacts. 

And that effect comes from the 

fact that consumers are experiencing increased 

costs, but they are also, at the same time, 

experiencing operating cost savings. And so 

the operating cost savings results in 

consumers having additional funds that can --

higher purchasing power than can go to -- into 

the retail sector. And so it is looking at 

the effect of that possibility. 

DOE uses the model ImSET, which 

stands for the Impact of Sector Energy 

Technologies. And here is a request for 

comment. 

So the emissions analysis is to 

estimate the effect of standards on airborne 

emissions from power plants being used to 

Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc.

202-234-4433
 

 

 

 

 

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

Page 104 

generate electricity in the case of 

dehumidifiers. For the purposes of estimating 

the impacts at the power plant, we used NEMSBT, the same tool that is being used, or 

proposed to be used, for the utility impact 

analysis. 

There are a list of emissions 

here, and DOE requests input on inclusion of 

these emissions and 

stakeholders would like to include. 

any others that 

FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Don 

Brundage. 

MR. BRUNDAGE: Don Brundage, 

Southern Company. Just to repeat a comment 

from this morning, things are moving very 

rapidly with changes in generating units and 

the electric utility market. So it is -- I 

think NEMS-BT will handle that, but it is --

using the most up-to-date possible information 

in that particular area will be very 

important. 

FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Okay. 

Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc.

202-234-4433
 

 

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

Page 105 

Thank you. 

MS. DUNHAM WHITEHEAD: Thank you. 

Okay. Finally, the regulatory impact 

analysis analyzes non-regulatory alternatives 

to standards; for example, rebates, voluntary 

efficiency programs like Energy Star, tax 

credits, or procurement programs offered by 

state and federal governments. 

The method to conduct the 

regulatory impact analysis is to modify the 

NIA model, national impact analysis model, and 

we modify key inputs to determine what the 

impact from non-regulatory alternatives are. 

Stakeholders -- we don't have a 

specific comment box for the RIA, but 

stakeholders are welcome to send in comments 

on the regulatory impact analysis. 

So I have covered two key inputs 

in the preliminary analysis phase, and then 

six -- very briefly six additional analyses in 

the NOPR phase. I invite any comment or 

question at this point before turning the 

Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc.

202-234-4433
 

 

 

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

Page 106 

microphone back to Doug. 

FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: Nothing 

additional? 

(No response.) 

Okay. Thank you. 

MS. DUNHAM WHITEHEAD: Thank you 

very much. 

FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: So a lot of 

good content here this afternoon. As we 

promised at the outset, another opportunity 

for anybody that wishes to make -- raise other 

issues that need to be raised at this time 

before I turn it back to Stephen Witkowski. 

(No response.) 

Okay. Thanks to all of you. 

Stephen? 

MR. WITKOWSKI: Again, I just want 

to thank all of you for attending and 

participating. And to repeat what everyone 

else has said, if you have information, data, 

whatever, please get it into us. The comment 

period closes October 17th, and we certainly 

Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc.

202-234-4433
 

 

 

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10 

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

Page 107 

look forward to and encourage your 

participation. 

And thank you very much. 

FACILITATOR BROOKMAN: I'll hand 

out a quick evaluation form, as we always do. 

Thank you. Safe travels, 

everyone. 

(Whereupon, the above-entitled 

matter concluded at 3:17 p.m.) 

Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc.

202-234-4433
Page 108 

A agenda 3:3 7:22 8:2 94:15 100:2 101:3 16:19 18:12 assess 63:9 102:7

8:5 101:4,8,8,22 answer 38:3 45:2 102:22 able 35:20 36:20

aggregate 42:7 102:3 105:20 anticipate 28:20 assesses 69:19 44:16,19 93:12

43:3 analysis 3:7,7,8,11 63:22 assessment 3:6 102:13

aggregated 63:4 3:11,11,12,12,13 anticipated 15:5 8:13 19:5 22:7,11 above-entitled 66:2

aggregates 95:15 3:13,13 8:14,14 anti-backsliding 23:6 30:18 60:5 107:8

agreement 62:22 8:16,21,22,22 49:7 72:18 assign 75:5 accessible 10:21

AHAM 28:12 15:7 30:19,21 anybody 8:7 9:5 assigned 85:8 account 85:2 93:7

31:11 68:4 70:17 32:5 38:11,12,16 106:11 associated 45:17 accurately 85:8

86:7,8 87:5 99:21 39:11,12 40:11 apologize 5:21 Association 1:19 achieve 30:5 54:15

ahead 19:11 88:14 42:12 47:11 53:18 appears 43:22 2:1 6:22 63:19 acquire 55:5

ACs AHRI 91:19 54:13 56:9,10 appendix 16:6 assume 93:16 64:4

Act air 25:12,20 26:1,1 58:13,17 59:2,3,8 18:16,16 assumed 68:8 13:15

26:3 32:17,18 59:17,22 60:2 appliance 1:19 2:1 96:17 active 15:17 18:7

47:16 56:22 71:12 61:1,3,7,12,19 2:2 6:17,22 81:18 assumes 81:5 93:1 19:13 58:4

72:13,19 89:20,21 62:1,5 63:15 84:11 85:7,13 assumption 81:9 actual 19:14

90:20 66:17,20 67:2,3 87:5 93:13 102:14 assumptions 62:6 add 55:18 90:10

airborne 103:21 67:21 69:6,11,18 appliances 85:3 attempt 83:19 addition 18:6 42:5

air-to-air 32:16 70:11,15 74:10,22 95:6,7,8 attending 106:18 43:9 48:6 56:14

albeit 26:11 76:12,18,21 78:16 applicable 51:5 attention 87:20 57:1 68:17

Alliance 2:6 78:18 84:9,9,10 67:6 attribute 86:16 additional 7:16 9:6

allows 61:4 85:4,13 87:2 94:1 application 46:13 attributed 19:21 25:22 31:13 32:22

alongside 26:1 94:12,18 95:8,15 46:14 August 100:8 37:3,22 42:9 54:4

alternative 27:19 95:20 96:13 99:5 applications 34:3 availability 39:3 55:8,19 76:8 81:6

72:15 100:11,18 101:2 applied 13:12 53:16 81:22 94:8 103:12

Alternatively 27:12 101:11,12,14,15 applies 49:7 available 15:3,8 105:20 106:3

Additionally alternatives 105:4 102:6,7,20,22 apply 24:16 45:10 22:20 32:10 42:9 59:15

105:13 103:5,5,20 104:6 applying 86:19 42:11 43:2 48:3 60:9 63:22 99:18

Amanda 1:21 6:18 105:4,10,11,17,19 Appreciate 10:19 49:19,20 50:3,6,9 addressed 18:20

29:9,10 34:17,19 analyze 36:17 appreciated 34:14 50:19 51:1,12,14 addresses 15:16

ambient 19:22 21:1 47:15 48:1,8 70:2 64:21 52:13 53:6,15,20 adds 95:8

21:6,7 24:19 36:7 102:13 approach 41:4,5,7 54:6 60:11 70:16 adequate 91:3

36:10 75:10 analyzed 42:14 41:12 43:15 47:16 81:16 91:17 adequately 21:13

Adjourn amend 17:6 47:18 50:12 78:10 54:17 69:12 71:22 Avenue 1:11 3:16

amended 13:15 103:2 76:15 79:17 80:17 average 20:16 adjustments 57:21

Administration 15:14 35:20 59:10 analyzes 49:15 82:19 83:10 84:3 60:12 79:5 80:11

amending 21:19 105:4 94:3 100:21 102:4 avoid 83:22 70:9 78:5

Administration's 75:17 ANDREW 1:23 approaches 42:1 aware 16:2 33:22

amendment 18:2 anecdotal 92:7 appropriate 13:1 49:10 55:3 56:16 74:4

18:14 annual 60:10 69:18 29:6 30:11 40:10 64:17 adopt 87:16

amendments 36:19 70:12 71:4 75:21 75:4 76:5 Awareness 2:2 6:17 adopted 85:15 93:2

amount 24:8 34:7 80:16 86:6 93:16 area 104:20 adverse 39:2,4

76:21 94:21 95:13 96:19 areas 58:2 80:12 B affiliation 5:14

analyses 8:21 9:2 97:22 98:4 99:8 aside 32:20 B 16:8 afternoon 4:14 5:2

15:21 18:22 37:11 99:11 asked 5:20 back 4:18 12:22 12:6 66:10 101:11

47:12 66:17,20 anonymize 63:7 aspect 88:9 33:4 52:3 55:10 106:9

67:5,20 77:3 ANSI/AHAM assembly 23:18 61:22 65:8,14,18 age 85:6

Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc.

202-234-4433
Page 109 

66:1 77:1 82:6 44:17 84:1 54:1 55:7 56:2 71:17 75:20 97:5 104:1

84:6 87:11 92:14 Berkeley 1:20,22 57:6,9 65:10 66:5 97:14 100:12 cases 49:18,22 50:3

106:1,13 2:3,8 72:5 73:13 74:11 calculations 78:1 case's 93:5

backcasts 86:15 best 72:8 76:7 79:20 81:11 96:16 cashflow 61:14

background 3:5 Betsy 1:15 7:6 81:22 82:7 88:6 calibrated 86:12 cashflows 61:14

8:4,11 12:14 48:20 49:2 89:13,17 90:15 California 6:20 categories 29:20

13:10 17:13 better 21:5,19 91:14 92:10 94:7 29:11 34:19 70:9 categorizing 23:20

badges 65:19 37:19 90:22 104:11,22 106:2,8 call 83:21 86:14 category 48:16

Baltimore 4:13 beverage 65:22 107:4 called 18:16 102:11 55:13,20

Barrington 1:17 beyond 65:4 101:2 brought 78:3 102:12 cause 11:2

58:11,14,15 big 55:13,21 Brundage 1:18 callout 9:18 caused 84:12

base 77:5 78:11 bit 11:10 12:13 6:12,12 44:22 Camilla 1:20 66:8 caution 87:18

83:13,22 84:5 16:4 28:14 46:11 45:1,1,14 46:6 66:10 cell 11:8

85:14,16 92:20 52:5 65:12 75:7 48:12,13 49:6 Canadian 16:21 census 68:17 80:13

93:5,10 96:14,20 96:2 97:7 57:7,14 72:6,7 CAN/CSA 16:21 Center 57:17

97:1,15 98:7 blue 78:21 79:4 87:9,9 90:16,17 capabilities 30:5 central 25:12

99:17,19 Board's 83:7 92:2 104:12,13,13 capability 72:12 certain 15:17 17:7

based 24:8 30:8 Book 68:4 86:7,9 BT 104:4 capacities 30:4 30:5 36:7 39:3

33:17 50:8 53:13 87:6 99:22 BTUs 95:19 capacity 16:12,19 47:17 58:2 93:16

53:16,20 69:11 borne 64:2 build 60:3 18:12 24:3 25:19 certainly 20:9 31:4

74:18 75:5,8,18 bottom 59:18 building 1:10 4:9 26:7,16 27:1 32:21 106:22

75:22 84:15 86:22 bound 20:14 57:12,12,20 58:6 29:14,20 40:7 certified 53:20

95:16 100:2,12 box 15:6 70:4 83:9 95:21 50:20 62:12 70:18 cetera 40:16

baseline 39:17,20 105:15 built 35:21 71:5,10,11 76:5 chain 67:22

40:2,11,18 50:11 boxes 9:19,19 built-in 35:16 capital 43:12 61:9 chains 96:14

77:11 12:21,22 bullet 15:13 62:8 chamber 35:6

basement 20:8 34:5 break 8:17 59:22 burden 62:10 capture 35:20 chance 5:15

basements 20:6,8 65:2,11,13 82:11 63:11 64:2 65:3 36:20 44:3,17 change 61:9

basic 74:6 Brenda 5:20 6:6 98:22 88:22 changes 56:9,13

basically 4:21 Brian 10:14 Bureau 68:17 captured 35:17 93:10 104:16

91:21,22 brief 4:15,19 7:22 business 6:1,4,5 capturing 88:18 channel 68:9

basis 9:14 24:14 briefly 94:14 101:6 43:4 54:20 63:17 card 6:4,6 characteristic

28:4 30:3 44:14 105:20 63:19,20 cards 6:1 40:17

53:18 70:19 78:7 bring 10:11 businesses 64:11 cares 64:11 characteristics

94:22 97:22 98:5 broader 44:20 64:17 Carlo 75:6 77:15 70:6

beautiful 4:10 broken 100:4 buy 83:2 89:20,21 77:15,22 78:21 characterization

becoming 14:12 Brookman 1:11,14 90:1 carry 61:19 69:16 72:4 78:8

behalf 6:19 29:11 4:3,12 5:9,19 7:9 carrying 60:7 characterize 22:8

behavior 88:2 10:18 11:20 19:10 C case 25:13 52:8 22:16 79:18 83:20

believe 35:11 22:2 23:10 29:8 Cadmus 19:15 67:10 78:11 83:13 84:4 90:14

believed 51:16 30:13 31:8 32:13 20:16 83:22 84:5,19 characterizes

Ben 1:17 58:11,15 33:2,6,9 34:17 calculated 71:5 85:14,15,16 92:20 73:18,21 78:14

66:14 101:10 35:13 36:22 37:3 94:21 96:6 92:22 93:3,10,15 Charlie 10:15

103:4 37:12 38:2,8 calculates 96:1 93:21 96:14,15,20 chevrons 84:7

benefit 77:19 79:2 40:19 43:17 44:21 calculating 16:22 96:22 97:2,2,15 choose 41:17

79:3,9,12 98:19 45:20 46:7 47:5 74:15 97:16 98:8,8 chose 45:17

benefits 35:17 44:3 48:11 49:12 52:1 calculation 69:3 99:18,19 100:14 chosen 53:16

Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc.

202-234-4433
Page 110 

CHUN 2:3,3 collected 60:4 39:19 connection 25:14 CONTENTS 3:1

Churchill 1:18 7:2 93:22 competition 59:13 consequences 47:3 context 49:3

7:2 colorful 9:17 63:12 conservation 1:3 continue 74:9,9

circulated 62:20 columns 76:17 80:3 competitive 62:12 4:6 5:1 23:22 continued 12:9

clarification 25:1 92:17 complete 6:7 62:1 consider 23:20 continuing 38:14

33:8,14 37:17 combined 73:2 compliance 18:19 35:7 36:19 38:15 87:10

clarified 52:3,4 80:5 components 23:18 54:17 56:11 57:5 continuously 36:5

clarify 28:13 45:3 come 7:18 9:20 42:18 68:10 73:6 75:17 contribute 23:6

57:11 102:16 comprehensive consideration 10:5 contributions

clarifying 24:15 comes 83:6 103:7 32:9 37:22 57:16 58:4 41:19

class 14:19,20 coming 5:8 32:18 concern 46:11 60:18 76:2 contributors 42:16

16:13 25:3 26:20 comment 9:6,15,19 concerned 19:13 considered 16:3 control 40:16 42:3

28:7 39:20 40:13 11:5,9 12:20 13:5 conclude 66:19 23:14 27:5,7 31:6 Conversely 79:12

41:15 42:14 43:7 19:6 23:5 27:22 concluded 107:9 40:13 41:13 47:11 conversion 42:21

45:9 47:4 48:8 30:9 33:5 36:14 condenser 92:7 54:12 57:19 64:10 43:11 97:6,10

49:5 50:14 75:4 37:8,9 43:13,21 condition 20:12 76:4 92:18 convert 67:17

76:6 78:10 100:4 45:18 55:1,10,11 22:1 considering 25:2 cool 32:18

classes 14:14,16 57:4,8 64:9,12 conditioner 72:13 57:22 copy 6:4

23:21 24:2,8,13 65:7 71:20,21 89:20 90:21 considers 84:17 correct 29:22 36:1

28:2,2,4 37:10,15 72:8 79:16 81:8 conditioners 47:17 consistent 82:20 36:14 48:16,20

39:21 47:10,14,18 83:9 84:2 87:11 56:22 consisting 23:18 49:1 52:14,21

47:21 48:1 50:11 94:2 100:20,20 conditioning 25:12 consolidated 14:18 89:8

70:3 92:18 100:3 102:1,4,20 103:19 72:19 Constant 36:6 correctly 89:3

100:7 104:14 105:15,21 conditions 20:2 constituent 60:11 correlation 26:15

classification 28:5 106:21 21:6,17,22 24:19 construction 85:18 91:20 92:1,3

classified 27:13 commenters 17:20 36:11 74:18 75:10 85:21 88:22 90:19 correspond 15:22

28:10 48:15 comments 3:14 5:5 75:22 Consulting 1:17,23 corresponds 51:14

classifying 28:7 7:17 9:10 10:1 conduct 19:1 62:20 2:5,5,7,7 58:16 cost 3:10 8:20

clear 83:15 11:13,21 12:18 105:9 63:1 37:11 39:15 41:2

Clearinghouse 13:4,9 22:4 23:11 conducted 17:2 consumed 71:16 42:7,8,12,17,18

68:21 30:14 33:3 37:4 19:16 20:20 30:19 consumer 24:5 42:19 43:16 55:5

Cleary 1:19 6:21 39:6 40:19 47:6 30:21 32:11 66:21 28:21 37:14 67:17 67:9,10,10,15,17

6:21 28:12,12 51:19 54:2 56:3 77:6 67:18 68:3,5,7 67:20 68:2 76:12

29:3,7 31:10,10 58:10 69:8,9 72:5 conducting 4:22 69:2 74:10 77:10 76:18,19,22 77:1

43:19,19 52:2,2 73:14 76:8 79:20 55:4 78:9 83:8 101:15 77:11 78:2 79:5

52:11,15,18,22 91:15 94:1 105:16 conducts 77:14 consumers 29:18 83:1 93:8 95:13

53:22 commercial 58:18 confidence 63:2 68:19 77:19 80:15 98:1,2,3,5,10,11

closer 20:18 commercially 50:3 confidential 42:10 103:8,12 98:13,14,16,18,20

closes 13:5 106:22 Commission 68:13 confidentiality consumption 27:11 98:21 101:13

Closing 3:14 70:10 54:20 63:8 69:19 70:22 74:5 103:10,11

clothes 56:18,22 common 90:6 configuration 25:4 78:6 86:8 95:14 costs 42:22 67:13

58:18 64:4,4 Company 1:18 25:11 27:3,9 28:9 97:3 99:9 68:12 69:4 77:9

code 16:7 57:15 6:13 45:2 87:10 34:8 35:4 89:14 contact 64:20 77:10 80:22,22

58:6 87:13 104:14 confirm 88:20 contemplated 81:2,6 82:22 83:2

codes 57:12,12,20 comparable 47:15 confused 52:6 44:13 83:3 85:8 93:14

codified 13:18,19 47:19 conjunction 61:2 content 11:10 95:15 97:20 98:4

cold 45:7 92:5 compared 20:2 70:10 106:9 98:9 99:12 103:9

Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc.

202-234-4433
Page 111 

cost-benefit 100:11 data 5:5 12:17 90:22 91:4,11 designated 25:4 differently 14:15

Council 2:8 6:15 22:10,18 33:18 dehumidifier 12:8 designed 24:18 dig 60:15

couple 87:13,20 41:14 42:8,11 16:5 17:4 22:9,17 25:10 27:1 35:4 diligence 64:15

course 7:17 11:6 43:7 55:5 67:19 23:15 28:21 31:15 36:4 direct 42:20 62:11

53:19 68:17 69:1,12 34:5 44:2 56:14 designs 31:14 69:10 103:3,4

cover 4:20 83:13 70:16,18 71:18 66:13 67:11,22 40:15 42:1 54:9 directed 69:9

94:12 101:13 72:2 79:17 80:10 70:13,14 71:13 54:11 55:2,6 direction 88:10

covered 37:8 45:11 80:12 81:9 83:5 74:15 75:21 79:18 desired 34:5 directive 64:7

49:1,8 84:18 84:4,16 86:12,15 80:7 82:22 90:1 determination 3:10 directly 43:20

94:15 103:4 87:3 91:17 92:8 95:22 3:10 8:19,20 46:2 59:12 68:6

105:18 92:12,15 93:12 dehumidifiers 1:3 83:6 101:19 disaggregated

covering 18:22 94:3,5 99:4,7,9,19 4:7 5:2 13:11,13 determine 41:3,10 14:14

80:12,21 99:21 100:5,22 17:8 19:14,17 61:18 82:17 99:9 disciplined 65:18

covers 99:2 106:20 20:5,7,17,21 21:4 99:13,16,19 disclosure 62:22

creating 14:8 47:3 databases 60:16 21:10 23:21 24:8 105:12 discount 82:5,14,14

credits 93:20 105:7 70:8 24:16,22 25:5 determined 31:21 82:16 83:6,11

criteria 16:17 24:1 date 13:7 18:19 26:22 28:6,8 95:20 96:8,10

28:2,3 38:14,17 63:15 96:17 30:21 32:15 34:21 determines 41:2 discounted 61:14

51:8 53:14 Daugherty 10:15 44:4 55:3 63:18 76:21 77:5

cumulative 62:10 day 4:10 9:3 14:17 71:4 72:10 76:19 determining 39:13 discrepancy 86:13

63:11 64:1 65:3 14:17,21 16:20 82:19 83:16 84:19 43:16 71:22 86:13 86:16

94:22 96:21,22 26:7,8 40:8 48:4,5 95:4,11 100:1 develop 22:18 35:1 discuss 58:12 82:16

97:2,3 98:2,5,8,9 48:5 50:15,20,21 104:2 60:12 61:6,22 discussion 18:22

98:13,14,16 51:3,4,6,7,13 deliver 11:5 70:11 92:21 100:15

current 14:5 16:5 52:12 53:6,11 demonstrate 15:19 developed 87:1 dishwasher 78:18

18:12 21:12,14 deal 57:2 demonstrated 93:4 95:14 dishwashers 56:18

23:7 24:6 35:2,12 debt 83:3 22:21 38:20 54:8 developing 62:6 64:3

41:14 48:17,17 decides 56:19 demonstration 92:20 94:6 disproportionately

49:8 51:17 60:6 decrease 31:14 15:22 development 45:5 101:16

71:1,1 74:18 75:9 dedicated 101:21 denoted 16:6 84:14 distinct 26:15 60:1

75:19 79:18 80:18 Defense 2:8 6:15 Department 1:1,15 device 71:8 distribution 34:1

92:3 95:10 define 39:16 40:5 1:15 4:5 5:21,22 DH-1 16:19 18:13 67:22 68:9 78:12

currently 15:2 73:7,17 6:7 9:16 10:20 18:18 83:14 84:5 85:10

32:10 35:10 44:18 defined 14:10 73:5 differ 25:17 distributions 77:16

49:1 50:10,19 24:21 39:20 40:2 dependent 85:7 difference 50:5 dividing 71:6

53:7 74:7 83:17 95:17 96:4 99:6 77:12 93:6 97:1,9 divisions 80:13

83:21 defines 63:20 74:7 depending 70:5 98:7,12 divulging 43:4

curve 42:13 defining 24:1 25:2 depiction 63:5 different 18:10 document 5:3

customers 62:5 28:2 39:22 73:19 depreciation 42:21 20:21 30:4,5,10 12:15 13:1,8 15:6

customization 74:1 43:10 33:19 45:4 48:7 24:12 31:11 44:1

57:20 definitely 30:12 describe 29:12 60:19,21 67:6 100:17

cycle 67:9,20 83:13 definition 23:13,15 described 63:13 71:19 87:21 88:2 DOE 7:6,8 12:7

100:10,13,17 45:13 46:3 description 8:12 89:15 92:16,17,17 13:21 15:7 17:2,6

C749-94 16:21 degrees 20:10 desiccant 45:6,15 96:14 101:15 17:14,20 19:1

dehumidification design 41:4,6,20 differentiation 21:18 23:5,20 D 45:5 58:1,5 72:12 43:15 49:21 50:1 29:6 30:3,9,11 24:10,12 25:1

Daniel 10:16 73:1,10 87:15 54:6,15 44:20 53:9 26:11,18 27:3,22

Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc.

202-234-4433
Page 112 

31:12 32:19 33:14 34:4,7 35:3 74:16,16,17 77:2 26:10,16,17 27:11 55:19

35:2,7 40:14 41:1 due 64:15 93:9 78:12 80:8 81:8 27:17 29:19 30:1 essentially 72:11

41:5 42:5 43:2,8,9 Dunham 1:20 66:8 83:14,18,22 84:5 30:6 31:15 35:10 establish 13:15

44:1,14 45:17,18 66:9,10 73:20 84:12 91:2 99:4,7 35:21 36:17 38:19 16:13 49:4

48:7,10 49:14 74:2,20 75:2 76:1 99:18 100:6 105:6 40:5 41:15 44:20 established 13:11

50:4,8 51:17,19 76:10 80:1 81:14 efficient 23:3 29:16 46:22 47:1 51:1,4 24:7 77:11

54:5,16 55:3,5,18 82:4,10 88:4,21 46:21 73:11 51:8 52:7,20 establishes 18:15

56:19 57:5 64:3 89:7,10 90:5,13 efficiently 73:3 53:14 57:17 69:15 69:18 76:19

67:21 68:7,12,15 92:11 94:11 105:2 EIA 80:9,12 69:16,19,19 70:4 establishing 73:3

68:22 69:2,10,12 106:6 EIA's 80:16 70:8,10,12,18,22 estimate 80:11

69:13,14,18 70:2 D.C 1:11 4:10 Eight 10:9 71:4,7,15,22 72:4 84:11 93:9 94:18

70:4,11,16,21 EISA 13:14,19 17:5 73:8 74:3,5,15 96:9 103:21

71:21 72:1 75:17 E 30:8,19 75:12,20,21 76:22 estimated 85:21

77:14,18 80:9,10 earlier 58:16 59:7 electric 6:13 78:5,6,8 80:5,7,16 86:19

80:14,16 81:5,8 62:7 63:13 66:14 104:17 85:7 86:5,6,8 estimates 70:22

81:15 82:16,21 69:4 70:1 78:4 electrically 23:16 93:20 94:18,20 82:21 87:1 95:9

83:15,15,19 84:4 87:10,22 88:3 electricity 80:4,4 95:14,15,17,19 estimating 80:18

86:4,9,15 93:22 92:15 101:4,11 80:10,11,14,19 96:1,21,22 97:2,4 83:11 104:2

94:2 100:2,8 early 15:8 86:17 97:20 100:15 97:11,15 98:1 et 40:16

102:3,8 103:16 economic 15:20 104:1 99:9,10 102:8,10 evaluate 55:6

104:8 59:10 94:19,21 embarking 12:7 103:17 105:6 evaluating 23:22

DOE's 40:4 47:22 96:4 97:13,19 Emily 10:19 Energy's 4:5 evaluation 107:5

51:15 edition 17:17,22 emissions 3:13 9:1 engineered 41:21 evaporator 32:18

doing 5:10 6:8 EF 44:6 103:20,22 104:7,9 engineering 3:7 everybody 4:4 11:7

46:22 60:22 64:15 effect 13:16 39:1 employ 32:16 8:14 37:11 39:11 12:6,9,16 14:5

87:19 91:10 48:18 56:19 85:1 employees 63:21 47:11 54:12 56:9 16:1

dollars 96:6 96:7 97:17 102:13 employing 63:20 61:3 70:11 74:22 exactly 23:14 39:17

Don 6:12 44:21 103:7,15,21 employment 3:12 entirely 73:3 examine 70:17

45:1 48:11 49:13 effective 96:17 9:1 62:11 102:21 environmental examined 41:22

57:6 72:6 73:14 effects 62:12 63:12 103:1,2,4 35:5 example 34:4 99:8

87:9 90:15 91:17 efficiencies 23:8 employs 95:12 EPACT 13:12 105:5

104:11,13 50:9 69:20 75:3 enable 69:2 70:16 EPA-mandated examples 92:8

DONALD 1:18 75:12 78:14 79:19 enabling 77:18 64:6 Excel 77:4

dot 65:15 83:20 85:10 99:16 encased 23:18 EPCA 13:15,22 Exchange 68:13

dotted 79:4 99:17,20 100:1,4 encourage 21:18 15:18 16:11 23:14 exchangers 32:17

Doug 1:11,14 4:12 efficiency 2:6 22:13 21:21 23:2 36:16 59:9 excuse 5:20 50:20

65:9 106:1 22:21 31:3 38:19 55:18 75:17 107:1 equal 79:10 60:20

driving 57:13 39:14,18 40:10 encouraging 12:16 equation 71:10 exhaust 24:18

drop 87:11 41:2,5,9,10,18 ends 65:21 74:14 existing 35:18

drops 93:16 42:8,13 43:16 energy 1:1,3,15,15 equipment 3:9 8:19 39:21 64:5 86:20

dryers 56:22 64:4 44:4 46:17 49:15 1:21 2:6 3:10 4:6 24:3 67:7 85:19 88:12 90:10,18

duct 26:1 49:17,19 50:17,18 4:22 6:19 8:20 97:21 98:4,5,11 91:12 95:9

ducted 24:19 25:3 51:10,20,22 53:5 10:20 13:14 14:9 98:14,17,21 99:10 expand 31:19 44:8

25:11 26:13 27:3 53:12 54:14,18 16:13,16,22 17:4 99:17 expect 7:16 88:2

28:9,15 46:12,19 55:11,19 59:11 17:9 18:11,17 equity 83:3 expects 15:7

ducting 25:15,21 62:9 63:6 64:2 19:18 20:22 23:22 error 78:3 expeditiously 11:12

27:8,10,14 28:19 69:22 71:8,14 24:2 25:19 26:9 especially 21:6 expenditures 62:8

Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc.

202-234-4433
Page 113 

expense 43:11 failed 85:19 89:4 61:1,16 62:4 100:15 good 12:5 14:4 19:7

expenses 69:17 90:8 67:13 69:3 77:9 Furthermore 85:5 21:15,21 36:1

81:3 82:18 failure 89:6 80:22 84:21 85:12 future 61:14 80:14 65:17 66:9 106:9

experiences 98:18 fairly 20:22 86:13 89:1,5,22 82:18 96:8 99:17 government 60:14

98:22 familiar 22:7 67:5 101:12 61:13 74:7

experiencing 103:8 fan 46:22 five 24:7,13 63:16 G governments 105:8

103:10 Farber 1:21 5:17 63:17 gained 61:16 grab 65:22

explanation 52:4 5:17 6:10,11 33:4 Florida 57:17,17 gap 50:22 52:16 graph 78:19

extension 13:6 33:7,11,13 34:11 57:20 53:7,12,17 61:21 graphic 77:8

extent 88:17 34:15 37:16 38:6 flow 25:20 gathered 63:3 greater 27:15 40:7

external 18:9 73:16,16,22 flowchart 19:4 GC 7:6 50:15 98:17

extrapolated 47:20 feasibility 15:20 76:17 80:3 97:12 general 27:22 72:7 greatest 48:2

16:1 38:18 99:13 101:19 greatly 64:21

F feasible 17:10 focused 11:9 generate 104:1 green 12:21 15:6

Facilitator 1:11,14 49:17 50:2 follow 102:2 generated 42:13 70:3

4:3 5:9,19 7:9 features 23:8 24:4 followed 59:2 generating 104:16 grouped 81:4

10:18 11:20 19:10 federal 16:7 40:2 following 8:1,10,15 generation 90:20 guess 44:9 75:8

22:2 23:10 29:8 50:13,22 83:7 8:18 gentlemen 66:6 guides 61:22 62:19

30:13 31:8 32:13 105:8 followup 91:17 geographical 33:22

33:2,6,9 34:17 feedback 11:3 form 45:8 80:9 80:12 H

35:13 36:22 37:3 43:14 100:5 107:5 geography 33:17 halfway 53:8

37:12 38:2,8 feel 7:18 11:4 62:17 forms 78:7 getting 46:21 52:5 halls 65:21

40:19 43:17 44:21 64:15 91:7 Forrestal 1:10 4:9 59:5 hallway 65:20

45:20 46:7 47:5 fewer 28:3 43:5 forth 59:9 give 12:13 21:15 hand 6:5 11:4

48:11 49:12 52:1 63:21 forward 37:10 60:8 given 41:15 78:15 107:4

54:1 55:7 56:2 FFC 100:12 107:1 80:6,7 85:4,11 handle 104:18

57:6,9 65:10 66:5 field 19:14,16 20:1 found 19:17 20:16 95:5 happens 90:12

72:5 73:13 74:11 21:9,13,16 75:10 91:22 gives 5:14 happy 32:22 64:21

76:7 79:20 81:11 75:13 76:2 83:17 four 38:17 80:13 Glad 4:13 81:21

81:22 82:7 88:6 filed 68:13 framework 5:3 go 7:10 13:16 19:11 hard 10:21

89:13,17 90:15 fill 50:22 52:16 12:15 13:1,7 15:6 26:15 33:4 37:10 HCFCs 64:7

91:14 92:10 94:7 53:7,12,17 92:13 24:12 31:11 44:1 39:1 48:18 52:3 health 39:5

104:11,22 106:2,8 filter 89:21 61:17 56:18 65:21 76:16 hear 12:4 66:7 82:5

107:4 final 14:2 15:9 54:1 free 7:18 11:4 88:14 91:7 92:14 heard 69:21

facing 61:6 56:21 62:17 96:17 101:5 hearing 91:10

fact 8:6 58:20 68:4 finally 11:7 56:7 fresh 25:22 103:13 heat 31:15,22 32:5

86:7,8 87:6 91:22 93:18 105:3 front 7:19 goal 39:12 32:16,20 44:5

99:21 103:8 finance 82:22 fuel 100:10,13,16 going 5:11 7:22 91:21

factor 14:9 16:14 Finances 83:8 fuels 100:14 12:3,11 41:4 45:3 held 1:10

16:22 18:11 19:19 financial 60:13 full 42:19 61:19 48:19 55:10 58:20 Hello 4:17

20:22 25:19 26:9 62:7 83:2 100:10,12,16 65:1,12,21 66:6,7 help 23:2 72:3 84:4

26:16,17 30:6 find 91:5 fully 49:10 76:11 66:7,16,19 67:1,8 94:5 99:19

35:10 40:6 44:20 finer 59:15 full-scale 59:20 76:11,13 82:10 Helpful 91:15

51:2 finished 34:4 functions 73:2 94:12 102:15 Hi 31:10

factors 16:2 26:10 first 12:3 15:9 84:21 86:20,21 Gonzalez 1:21 6:18 high 44:3

41:16 63:13 75:12 17:17 19:3 31:9 funds 83:1 103:12 6:18 29:10,11 higher 41:10 77:1

Fahrenheit 20:10 35:15 39:16 41:3 further 25:7 40:14 34:18,19 81:7 84:1 103:13

Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc.

202-234-4433
Page 114 

highest 49:18 50:17 identified 31:1,12 39:13 64:16 65:6 instance 89:19

51:15 32:1,3,4 41:8 ImSET 103:16 inefficient 91:4 instructions 13:3

highly 37:21 47:10 50:18 51:16 include 17:8,11 inform 61:7 28:19

historical 22:10,19 53:2 18:3 23:13 26:19 information 4:19 insufficient 70:15

23:8 84:16 86:1 identify 10:11 54:9 62:2 99:21 5:5 7:21 9:13,15 intake 24:18 26:1,3

86:12,14 87:2,4 22:12,16,22 41:19 104:10 9:16,20 12:17 integrated 72:17

95:10 99:3,15 60:17 61:4 77:18 included 17:8 23:5,7 27:4 29:2 72:22

historically 30:2 identifying 60:6 37:20 31:19 32:22 33:22 intend 28:17

home 1:19 2:1 6:22 IEC 17:16,18,18,22 includes 59:21 40:15 42:7 43:1,5 intended 50:12

25:5,6 26:2,19 18:4 67:12 84:15 43:10 54:21 58:8 52:19

27:13 28:6 33:12 IECC 57:14,21 including 25:1 60:4 61:16,18,20 intends 69:12,13

33:17 34:8,20 87:13 28:20 31:15,21 61:21 63:3,7 72:1

40:4,12 48:7,14 immediate 5:12 64:3 88:11 64:20 68:20 69:14 intensive 27:17

48:22 50:14 51:10 immediately 8:1,10 inclusion 104:8 70:9 71:3 72:2 intent 56:11

51:13 53:11 55:13 impact 3:8,11,12 incoming 32:17 74:4,21 78:5 81:9 intention 100:9

55:20 3:12,13 8:16,22 incorporate 44:5 81:15,19,21 84:3 interest 59:5 66:12

homes 20:5,6 83:18 9:2 56:8,10,12 93:18 100:10 87:7 92:13 94:5 82:21

91:12 58:12,17 59:2,3,8 incorporates 95:3 100:21 104:19 interested 5:4 40:9

home's 25:12 59:11,17 60:2,14 increase 26:15 106:20 46:10 51:21 57:11

hope 9:21 71:18 61:13 65:6 66:20 72:11 98:6,11,15 Information's 86:6 internal 91:6 92:6

hopes 70:21 67:21 77:13 79:9 98:18,21 inherently 30:4 international 17:15

hour 14:11 17:1 79:11 84:8,11 increased 77:1 initial 25:7 26:9 interpretation

hourly 70:19 94:17 96:4,10 103:8 34:1 39:6 40:5 48:22

hours 71:6,12,13 99:5,19 101:11 increases 39:18 47:22 50:7 interrupting 5:22

house 46:14,17 102:5,6,7,20,21 47:1 93:8 initially 26:18 Intertek 1:18 2:3,4

72:10,12 78:8 103:1,5,17 104:5 increasing 46:16 initiating 13:20 7:3,5

88:14 90:2,9,10 105:3,10,11,13,17 87:14 initiatives 23:1 interview 61:22

household 70:12,15 impacted 77:20 incremental 39:13 inlet 25:14 interviews 42:10

70:17 73:19 74:1 79:14 39:15,18 41:8 input 5:4 28:1 34:9 61:2,4,17 62:20

74:6,8 75:5 80:6 impacts 25:21 39:2 incrementally 40:14 43:14,14 63:4

95:21 39:4 60:20,20 41:10 50:4 51:19,21 introduction 3:4

households 70:5 62:11 63:6,10 incurred 83:3 69:10 80:17 83:10 8:3,11 12:13

79:14 93:19 97:13,19 Independence 1:11 84:2,8 86:9 87:7 introductions 5:11

housing 85:22 86:1 103:2,3,3,4,6 13:14 99:4 104:8 7:12

86:5,21 87:22 104:3 independent 72:16 inputs 67:3,19 69:5 inventory 85:2

humid 58:2 implementation indicated 12:21 76:16 77:9,17 95:4

humidifier 90:1 23:2 13:7 19:3 80:21 81:1,17 Investor-Owned

humidifiers 88:15 implemented 32:4 indicates 25:8 82:15 94:19,21 6:20

humidistat 35:16 implementing 42:2 63:16 99:5 105:12,18 invite 43:14 105:21

humidity 20:1,12 imply 33:18 indication 21:15 install 28:22 invites 51:19

20:13,15,18 21:1 important 9:7 indirect 103:3,6 installation 24:20 IOUs 29:11 34:19

21:8 75:11 91:6 67:19 83:15 90:14 indirectly 18:8 26:14 28:15 80:21 issue 49:3,6,11

hybrid 27:19 93:6 104:21 individuals 10:8,10 81:6 87:14 91:19

improve 22:13,21 industry 22:9 42:7 installed 25:10,22 issued 15:15 18:15

I 31:3 38:19 70:21 42:16 43:2 59:14 27:2,14 34:10 issues 3:14 8:8 9:6

idea 14:4 improvement 41:9 60:3,6,12 61:10 38:21 67:13,15 11:22 57:2,5

identical 101:18 improvements 61:15 63:5,10 95:13 58:10 61:5 62:3

Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc.

202-234-4433
Page 115 

106:12 45:2 55:21 57:1 21:8 40:10 41:11 77:18 91:19 97:19 57:2 59:12 60:12

item 54:2 90:11 58:3 67:6 72:14 41:18 49:15 51:20 101:15 107:1 60:21 61:2,6 62:1

IYER 1:22 72:20 75:9 51:22 53:2,13,15 looked 46:1 62:21 63:17 68:14

known 49:20 87:4 55:11,19 69:22 looking 32:10 49:3 manufacturer-to

J knows 37:18 91:6 93:17 100:6 56:8 102:3 103:14 69:1

JEAN-LOUIS 1:23 Kohl 1:15 7:6,6 LEYBOURN 2:1 looks 54:5 67:21 manufacturing

Jen 28:12 31:10 49:2,10 life 67:8,19 83:13 68:12,15 75:19 58:17 61:9 62:11

43:19 52:2 Kurt 10:15 lifetime 67:11 103:6 67:17 68:11

Jennifer 1:19 6:21 69:17 76:20 77:10 lot 4:19 9:16 41:16 Mark 2:3 7:4

28:11 31:8 43:18 L 81:2,15,18,20 57:16,18 60:4 market 3:6 8:13

52:1 labor 42:20 82:17 86:22 92:8 106:8 19:4 22:6,9 23:6

Joanna 2:2 6:16 Laboratories 5:18 life-cycle 3:10 8:20 Louis 2:6 46:8,9 32:10,16 49:20

19:10 32:13,14 Laboratory 1:20 37:11 67:9 76:12 88:7,8 50:10 53:7,21

35:13,14 55:8,9 1:22 2:4,9 76:18 78:1 79:5 lower 19:19,22 60:5 62:3 85:21

74:12,13 91:15,16 Ladies 66:6 101:13 20:1,9 21:7 46:18 91:10 92:4 99:18

join 7:19 large 40:7 80:13 light 61:15 62:9 75:10,14 104:17

joining 10:8,9,20 larger 26:6 27:1 limited 34:4,7 markets 85:17

Judith 2:5 12:4,12 largest 48:16 Linda 10:16 M market-pull 93:19

Judy 19:6 58:15 lately 32:11 line 78:22 79:1,2,3 Magazine 81:18 markup 62:3 68:15

66:14 69:22 latest 68:4 79:4 87:5 68:18 69:2

Julia 1:21 5:17 Laughter 82:12 linear 87:19 magnitude 60:21 markups 3:9 8:19

6:10 33:10,13 Lawrence 1:20,22 link 59:18 main 66:17 84:21 67:14,16 68:1,11

36:16 37:15,16 2:3,8 liquid 45:8 maintain 63:1,8 69:2

73:15,16 layered 41:9 list 31:2,16 32:1,7 maintained 21:4 material 42:20

jump 55:14,17 LCC 3:12 8:22 33:3 37:19 38:12 30:7 54:22 matter 8:9 11:22

jumping 29:21 47:12 67:2 69:5 65:4 104:7 maintaining 24:13 66:3 107:9

jumps 55:21 69:17,18 76:15 listed 23:19 59:18 maintenance 81:1 Mauer 2:2 6:16,16

jurisdictions 87:16 77:13,14 78:18,20 literature 31:13,20 81:7 97:21 98:1 19:6,11,12 28:11

justification 15:20 81:1 87:1 95:14 81:16 Maithili 1:22 96:12 32:14,14 33:1

59:10 95:20 101:19 liters 14:10 17:1 major 77:9 35:14,14 36:2,6,9

leads 27:21 71:15 making 7:17 57:21 36:12,15 37:2 K learns 44:14 little 12:13 14:14 manageable 47:14 55:9,9 74:13,13 keep 11:8 65:12 leaving 46:18 16:4 25:7 28:14 management 26:3 75:1,8 91:16,16 keeps 85:5 left 5:12 79:2 41:14 44:10 46:11 manner 27:15 max 49:17,20 50:1

Kevin 1:18 7:2 lessening 59:13 52:5,6 65:12 75:7 manufactured 50:5,6,8 51:21

key 49:6 61:5 62:2 let's 4:3 5:8 11:8 96:2 97:7 102:15 13:13 38:21 52:13 53:10

67:3 99:4,5 12:2,11 53:4,10 LLC 1:21 manufacturer 3:8 maximum 49:16

105:12,18 65:13,13 local 57:12,19 8:16 28:18 39:15 50:9 51:1,12,14 kilowatt 14:11 17:1 level 30:6 40:6,18 located 34:6 42:18 56:10 58:12 53:6,15,19 kind 20:14 36:16 41:5 42:8 49:18 locations 7:13 59:1,3,8,17 60:2 mean 24:17 28:18

46:10 47:1 55:16 50:1,8,17,20,22 long 2:8 31:2 38:12 60:16,17 62:13,22 75:16 85:9

75:11,18 51:5,10 52:6 53:5 54:13 64:9 68:2,6 means 23:21 25:16

kinds 88:15 53:12,14,17 54:14 longer 65:12 101:10 27:19 31:3 54:13

kit 27:8 55:14,14,14,15 long-term 87:19 manufacturers 54:18 65:15 85:14

know 15:1 20:4 70:17 80:8 83:18 look 9:18 21:18 1:19 2:1 7:1 measure 16:19

22:15 25:13 30:1 95:21 98:19 22:18 32:19 42:3 22:17 42:1,6 43:6 measured 19:18

30:10 31:2 32:8 levels 20:1,15 21:2 49:16 60:9 68:19 43:11 54:21 56:12 20:21 44:18

34:9 35:5,22 40:9

Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc.

202-234-4433
Page 116 

measurements model 39:17 40:17 103:1 105:11 105:4,13 54:5 56:5,6 58:9

76:2 60:14 61:13,14 Natural 2:8 6:15 NOPR 3:8 8:15 62:19,19 64:14

measures 16:11 63:9 77:16 84:14 nature 48:7 15:9 17:14,21 65:13 75:1 76:7

17:8,11 18:3 84:17,20 85:5 Navigant 1:17,23 58:21 59:2,22 76:10 80:1 81:14

measuring 17:16 94:6 95:2,9 2:5,5,7,7 12:12 66:21 77:6 101:2 82:3,14 83:12

18:4,10,11 26:13 103:16 105:11,11 58:15 63:1 102:18 105:21 84:6 88:4 89:9

mechanically 23:17 Modeling 102:11 near 53:17 normally 25:11 91:15 92:11 94:10

meet 14:3 17:5 modify 102:12 nearby 34:6 34:8 94:11 99:2 101:1

38:14 45:12 46:3 105:10,12 necessarily 21:15 Northwest 2:6 104:22 105:3

meeting 1:5,10 4:5 moisture 14:10 29:16,17 note 7:15 33:14 106:5,15

5:3 6:3 7:18 16:20 17:1 24:9 necessary 38:22 79:8 101:9 old 91:4 95:7

12:15,20 45:8 71:11,15 55:5 noted 24:6 older 90:20 91:1

meetings 5:10 molding 37:21 NEEA 46:10 88:8 notes 44:1 92:4

10:21 Monday 1:7 4:8 need 7:11 37:18,22 notice 13:22 66:22 once 59:6

meets 40:17 monitoring 19:16 61:19 80:6 87:14 77:7 78:18 100:9 ones 28:16,18

Meg 2:8 6:14 Monte 75:6 77:14 91:7 92:21 99:3 101:3 46:12

mentioned 59:7 77:15,22 78:21 106:12 no-impact 79:1 online 10:14,20

69:4 78:4 97:6 month 70:19 needed 68:1 NPV 96:5 open 48:21

Menzer 2:3 7:4,4 morning 6:3 12:10 needs 73:5 NREL 20:20 opening 3:3 8:2,7,8

merit 60:18 65:17 67:4 80:20 negatively 77:20 number 46:1 47:14 11:17

method 17:18 96:12 104:15 79:14 48:2,3 71:12 operate 80:7

22:15 35:7 43:10 Mortazavi 10:17 NEMS 102:10,12 78:19,20 79:13 operated 21:10

84:13 101:6,18 move 8:12 68:5 104:3 numbers 12:22 23:17 25:10 28:9

102:8 105:9 moving 22:6 29:19 NEMS-BT 102:12 79:8 28:17

methodologies 5:6 69:15 84:7 101:1 104:18 numerous 67:6 operating 21:17,22

methodology 4:22

100:11

104:15

multiple 29:20

net 63:10 79:9 96:5

97:13 98:19,22 O

36:5 67:12 69:17

77:10 81:3 82:18

methods 59:16 56:13 99:13 objectionable 91:6 85:7 93:8,14 98:3

metric 14:9 100:10 multiplier 100:13 never 89:5 observation 55:12 98:8,10,13,16,20

mic 7:13 multipliers 67:16 new 12:8 13:15 obtain 93:12 99:11 103:10,11

Michael 10:16 multiplying 71:5 15:20 18:15,18 Obviously 12:14 operation 71:6,13

microphone 7:11 85:22 32:6 35:7 39:1 occur 82:18 opportunity 8:6

10:12 106:1 mute 11:2 56:20 61:10 62:9 occurs 50:4 9:5 37:9 69:14

microphones 5:16

11:1 N

63:6 84:12 85:15

85:17,20,20,22

October 13:5,8,13

13:17 24:14

83:3 106:10

opposed 92:15

mid-afternoon NADAV 2:5 86:1,5 88:13,22 106:22 option 27:2 35:15

8:17 name 4:12 5:13 89:20 90:9 91:2,5 offer 9:15 29:17 36:18,21 41:4,7

minimum 91:2 10:6 66:10 92:3 93:1 95:6 offered 105:7 43:15 46:17,18

minutes 65:14 names 10:12 64:20 newly 40:12 Off-mic 57:8 optional 27:8

missed 31:7 nation 78:15 85:3 NI 2:3 Oh 19:9 optionally 28:8

misspeaking 48:20 95:5,11 98:18,21 NIA 95:2,12,22 Okay 5:9,19 6:10 options 27:6 31:1,5

mistaken 63:19 national 1:20,22 99:6 105:11 7:14 12:5 18:21 38:13 39:7 41:20

mix 78:14 79:18 2:3,8 3:11 8:22 nice 72:15 29:3,7 30:16,17 50:2 54:6

83:20 66:19 67:20 84:8 nine 80:13 33:1 36:2,9,12,22 order 96:8

mode 15:16,17 17:3 94:17,20 96:5,9 non 22:22 62:21 37:6,7 38:8,9,10 organizational

17:3,9,9 18:4,5,7 97:11,13,15 99:5 non-capital 62:8 40:22 41:1 47:5,8 5:14

18:17,17 19:13 99:10 102:10 non-regulatory 49:12 52:9,19,22 orientation 101:7

Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc.

202-234-4433
Page 117 

orienting 84:7 87:19 plan 9:9 34:22 84:12 92:18 probably 10:10

original 13:6,10 payback 3:11 8:21 planned 80:17 potentially 60:19 20:13 21:8 45:15

14:15,20 47:12 67:2,9 69:6 83:10 100:21 63:17 70:2 problem 82:13

originally 16:9,10 76:12,15,20 78:2 planning 32:19 power 17:16 18:5 problematic 88:1

outlet 25:14 87:1 plans 68:22 86:15 103:13,22 104:3 procedure 3:6 8:13

Outlook 80:16 86:6 PECK 2:4 plant 104:3 preliminary 3:8 15:14,15 16:5,6

outset 5:21 11:21 people 64:16 88:13 plants 103:22 8:15 15:7 19:1 16:11 17:4,11

106:10 90:7 91:10 plate 45:7 30:20 38:11 39:11 18:3,8 19:7,13

outside 64:11 people's 83:17 play 62:13 58:12 59:1,21 21:12,14,19 22:4

overall 69:1 86:21 percent 20:6,12,18 playing 73:8 60:22 61:7,12 24:10 26:12 34:21

102:22 68:5 79:10,13 please 5:16 6:9 63:15 66:17 70:15 35:3,12,18,19

overarching 39:12 percentage 79:13 7:10,18 10:5,6 94:13 100:18 36:4,20 38:1 44:2

overcounting 84:1 percentages 77:19 11:1,4 33:6 37:15 101:2 102:17 44:8,13,19 45:9

overhead 42:20 performance 19:15 46:8 62:16 65:20 105:19 51:18 74:19 75:9

overlap 56:7 21:4,13,16,20,21 73:14 106:21 present 1:13,16 75:15,18,19

overview 8:18 25:18 37:13 91:1 pleasure 12:6 4:21 6:2 9:21 procedures 17:6

ownership 86:2 performance-rel... plural 9:2 59:4 63:10 82:17 59:16

owning 67:10 24:4 plus 80:13 85:11 96:5,9 proceed 11:14 12:2

period 3:11 8:21 point 9:7 13:4 14:7 97:14 99:14 15:5 66:6,7 P 13:5 24:10 47:12 14:13 15:11,13 presentation 15:13 proceeding 9:8

packet 7:20 9:13 67:2,9 69:6 70:20 24:11 29:18 33:13 69:9,22 100:16 proceedings 11:6

page 3:2 43:22 71:14 76:12,16,20 34:12 36:1 37:17 102:2 process 17:19

parameter 18:10 78:2,16 85:4 87:2 46:1 53:8 55:17 presentations 44:15

parameters 16:12 106:22 57:15 59:4 60:15 66:15 procurement 105:7

60:13 62:7 perspective 78:9 63:14 90:17 92:19 presented 58:17 produce 96:20

part 16:8 18:7 phase 59:2,22,22 97:4 105:22 presiding 1:12 produces 96:13

19:22 58:5 67:14 61:1,3,11 64:6 points 59:16 press 15:14 product 14:13,16

68:18 69:16 80:22 66:18,21,22 94:13 Policy 100:9 pressure 25:20 14:18,20 16:13

81:2 94:16 102:17,18 popular 90:11 pretty 26:6 55:13 23:7,9,21 24:1,7

PARTICIPANT 105:19,21 populate 63:9 previous 12:19 24:13 25:3,18

10:14 phases 58:22 population 101:20 14:2 16:16 30:18 26:20 28:4,6

participating phones 11:8 populations 101:16 32:5 74:14 31:13,20 35:4

106:19 photocopy 6:1 portable 24:16,17 previously 24:6 37:9,14 39:14,20

participation 107:2 pick 79:6 24:22 25:9,17 pre-cool 32:17 40:13 41:15 42:14

particular 43:7 piece 33:7 26:21 27:7 28:8 pre-cooling 32:19 43:7 45:9,15,16

51:20 60:17 74:8 pieces 19:3 28:16 33:12,16 pre-NOPR 61:3 46:4,21 47:4,10

76:5 84:18 93:17 pint 40:8 50:15,20 39:22 46:12,19 price 3:9 8:19 47:14,18,21 48:1

101:14,21 104:20 pints 14:17,17,21 48:1,15 67:18,18 68:3,22 48:8 49:1,5,19

particularly 28:16 16:20 26:7,8 48:4 portion 18:21 80:15 93:7,14 50:11,14 67:12,18

37:10,13 40:11 48:4,5 50:21 51:3 22:11 69:17 99:11 67:18 69:20,21

46:15 51:4,6,7,13 52:12 possibility 103:15 prices 23:9 69:3 70:3,7 71:7 72:22

parties 68:8 53:5,11 71:11 possible 11:10,12 80:4,4,11,19 73:7 75:4 76:6

pathway 54:19 pipe 31:15,22 32:5 12:17 27:18 73:6 primarily 5:4 61:8 78:10 81:15,17,20

pattern 87:21 32:20 44:5 98:19 104:19 primary 69:5 81:1 82:20 83:2 86:2,2

Pause 82:9 place 34:22 40:1 potential 28:7 31:3 85:17 100:13 86:9,19,20,22

pausing 62:15 63:7 72:9 89:5 35:17,20 36:17,19 Prior 8:5 92:18 95:3 100:3

pay 68:20 76:22 97:6 59:13 64:9 69:20 probability 77:16 100:4,7,14

Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc.

202-234-4433
Page 118 

production 42:19 70:18 71:3 42:15 65:2,22 recognizes 70:4 58:7

products 15:2 17:7 provides 25:14 102:16 83:16 related 43:21 57:18

23:3 25:8 27:4 28:19 80:10 84:20 quite 11:10 recommendation 81:7

32:9 35:9 39:3,19

41:16,21 45:12

provisions 26:13

public 1:5,14 4:5 R

29:5

recommended

relates 37:14 61:8

relationship 41:2

48:3 50:10,19 4:13 12:15 60:10 raise 9:6 11:4 20:14 43:16

51:11 53:16 54:7 publication 83:7 106:11 record 6:7 10:6,13 relative 20:1,11,13

67:7 68:5 72:19 publicly 42:11 raised 106:12 66:3 20:15,18 21:1,8

84:17 92:3,4 60:11 68:14,16 raising 83:1 records 60:10 63:2 21:15 39:19 75:11

product's 70:6 publish 13:22 range 20:22 21:5 RECS 20:4 74:5 relevant 81:10

profile 60:3 published 17:14,20 21:21 44:6 75:3 86:7 102:18

programs 93:19 26:10 76:3 100:8 76:4 red 79:3 relies 84:13

105:6,7 publishes 78:6 ranging 26:7 reduces 78:2 remaining 47:21

project 2:2 6:17 purchase 82:22 rapidly 104:16 refer 12:22 remarkably 58:19

7:11 93:15 93:7,14 rate 83:6 96:10 reference 16:18 remarks 3:3,15

projected 80:18 purchasing 103:13 rated 19:19 22:1 17:15,21 57:15 4:15 8:2,8 11:17

85:17 93:20 95:10 purpose 69:11 27:6 35:10 51:15 referenced 16:15 remind 14:5

97:16 76:15 84:10 85:1 74:16,18 75:22 referencing 18:9 remove 24:9

projection 84:21 94:17 101:5,14 rates 82:5,14,15,16 referring 71:9 removed 14:10

93:4,5 96:14,15 102:6,22 83:11 86:2,3,10 reflect 19:14 21:20 16:20 17:1 45:8

projections 80:15 purposes 50:7 rating 20:2,12 reflective 21:9 71:12,15

85:22 86:4,11,14 54:12 104:2 74:17 refrigerated 23:17 Renata 10:17

88:18 92:21,22 put 18:2 23:4 45:7 ratio 91:21 refurbished 88:12 repair 81:2,7 97:20

93:11 95:3 59:9 88:13 91:7 reach 53:2 54:14 regard 64:6 98:1

promised 106:10 P-R-O-C-E-E-D-... reached 54:18 regarding 20:11 repeat 104:14

proposal 40:5 4:1 read 10:12 region 33:19 106:19

47:22 50:8 p.m 1:11 4:2 66:3,4 reading 52:6 regulate 46:5 repeated 71:17

proposed 13:22 107:9 real 21:16 26:17 regulated 14:9 replacement 86:17

17:14 24:12 28:1

51:9 66:22 71:21 Q

65:14 87:14 91:9

realize 87:22

regulations 16:7

65:5

86:18 89:1,18

replacements

77:7,20 79:17 quadrillion 95:18 really 12:15 20:13 regulatory 3:13 9:2 85:19

84:3 98:22 101:3 quads 95:18 43:20 52:8 65:2 22:22 23:1 56:8 replacing 90:2

101:6 102:4 104:5 qualification 16:17 70:16 87:12 56:13 57:5 58:10 report 59:17

proposes 48:8 94:3 51:8 53:14 real-world 21:20 60:14 61:13 62:10 reported 80:16

94:4 102:9 quantified 77:5 44:17 63:11 64:1 65:3 reports 60:10 68:4

proposing 26:18 quantitatively 63:9 reason 13:20 24:22 105:3,10,17 68:13,16 71:2,2

41:6 quantities 71:7,19 33:15 41:12 Reich 2:5 12:4,5,12 76:3 99:22

proprietary 43:5 quarter 15:9 reasonable 53:9 19:9 22:3 23:12 represent 21:13

54:10,15,20 55:2 question 11:5 reasons 43:4 47:13 29:1,4,22 30:17 48:2

protect 85:13 34:20 35:6,15 90:19 32:2,21 33:21 representative

protected 62:21 43:20 46:11 48:13 rebates 105:5 34:13 35:2,22 47:17 63:5

prototype 54:8 53:1 59:14 105:22 receive 51:21 36:3,7,10,13 37:7 representatives

provide 12:16 24:4 questions 9:10 10:1 received 7:20 9:12 38:10 41:1 44:11 41:17

31:19 53:9 64:19 11:13 34:15 62:3 receiving 79:11 45:11,18 47:9 represented 43:6

69:10,14 72:22 62:16 92:15 48:19 49:14 52:10 represents 20:13

86:9 quick 13:10 107:5 recognition 15:1 52:14,17,21 53:4 78:1,22

provided 43:8 quickly 4:20 14:5 recognized 17:18 54:5 56:1,6 57:10 request 12:20 23:4

Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc.

202-234-4433
Page 119 

27:21 42:6 43:13 61:10,15 94:19 94:16 102:9,19 41:22 44:19 53:4 94:1,6 95:3 96:13

55:1,10 57:3 results 21:3 47:19 rulemakings 64:5 53:10 60:7 61:5 97:16

71:20 79:16,17 47:20 70:11 97:11 82:20 65:18,22 67:22 shipment-weight...

93:22 100:5 102:1 103:11 running 101:22 69:8 70:3 71:9 43:3 99:6,20,22

102:19 103:18 resumed 66:4 runs 78:20 100:2 75:12,15 77:8 100:3

requesting 64:8 retail 68:22 69:3 88:2 89:11 92:14 shipped 85:18 95:7

S 83:10 100:20 99:11 103:14 92:16 96:13 shortly 40:1 66:1

requests 23:5 43:9 retailer 68:6,15,18 Safe 107:6 seeing 60:19 91:18 show 77:13 80:5

69:7 72:2 80:17 retailers 68:16 safety 37:13 39:5 seek 50:4 93:13

81:8 84:2 87:6 retired 92:5 95:7 sales 68:19,21,21 seeking 5:4 27:3 showed 21:3 26:14

94:2,5 100:3,19 retirement 86:19 sample 19:18 20:17 29:2 74:14 99:12

104:8 86:21 74:6 78:7,17 seeks 71:21 showing 42:15

require 58:5 retrofit 46:15 101:20 seen 12:19 69:7 66:12 76:13

required 13:21 90:18 91:11 satisfies 59:8 83:1 92:8 shown 34:2 42:22

17:6 18:18 48:10 retrofitting 88:12 saturation 86:3,10 SEER 91:20 50:12 79:7

49:14 76:22 83:5 return 26:1 46:20 save 73:8 SEER10 91:1 shows 77:8 100:6

requirement 14:3 reverse 41:21 saved 95:18,19 SEER8 91:1 101:7

16:10,16 review 3:3 7:22 8:2 savings 35:21 selection 41:20 side 26:1,4

requirements 17:5 8:6 9:14 25:7 36:17 69:19 76:22 self-contained significantly 19:19

59:9 26:9 31:13 32:9 77:4 79:5 80:14 23:16 75:14,20

requires 15:18 reviewed 38:13 93:8 94:18,20 send 105:16 silent 11:8

requiring 58:1 revised 44:3 95:17 96:8,19 sense 74:21 similar 25:8 58:19

research 31:12,20 revision 44:12,16 97:3,4,11,15 98:3 sensible 91:21 96:11 97:12

32:2,11 34:2 revisions 44:8 98:10,13,17,20 sentence 44:9 similarly 98:11

51:15 57:18 71:2 RIA 105:15 99:10 103:10,11 separate 25:2 28:6 simulation 75:6

Reserve 83:7 right 11:18 23:12 saying 5:13 89:12 49:5 72:16 73:4,9 77:15,15,22 78:21

residential 1:3 4:6 33:5 39:10 44:13 says 31:11 44:1 separately 35:8 SINGERMAN 2:5

5:2 17:7 26:8 48:14 55:21 65:1 52:7 89:4 78:11 single 14:18 21:22

63:18 74:4 78:6 65:8,14 79:1 89:6 scale 26:9 38:22 September 1:8 4:8 26:20 90:21

80:15 84:19 86:7 89:15 90:4 scenarios 93:16 service 85:3 95:5 site 95:20

resolving 50:5 RoHS 57:3 64:7 screened 39:8 serviced 38:22 site-to-source 97:5

Resources 2:8 6:15 room 1:10 5:11 screening 3:6 8:14 set 36:10 45:17 97:10

respond 9:21 7:10,21 11:3 38:12 setpoint 20:16 six 14:1 20:20 60:1

response 9:11 10:3 47:16 56:22 64:4 seats 7:16 seven 16:2 59:9 66:20 70:2 94:15

11:15 12:1 22:5 round 61:1,16 SEC 68:15 share 62:3 99:18 101:4 102:2

30:15 37:5 38:4 row 7:19 52:6,20 second 5:20 17:21 sheet 92:12 105:20,20

39:9 40:21 47:7 rule 14:2 15:10 38:10 51:8 61:11 shipment 88:10,18 size 26:6 48:16

54:3 56:4 62:18 18:15 56:21 66:22 76:17 80:2 84:8 99:3,15 slide 52:3 59:19

64:13 76:9 79:22 72:19 77:7 101:3 85:1 shipments 3:11 70:4 74:14 76:14

81:13 82:2 94:9 rulemaking 3:4 5:1 section 43:22 8:21 22:10 23:9 78:13,17 84:7

106:4,14 8:3,11 12:8 13:21 sections 13:2 62:5 84:9,10,11 87:11 94:2 96:3

restate 98:15 14:1,2 15:5,19 sector 103:14,17 84:14,16,16,20,22 96:11 97:8 99:2

restrictions 25:20 17:3 18:6,20 19:2 Securities 68:12 85:12,14,16,20 99:12

27:16 48:17 49:4,9 55:4 Security 13:15 86:11,12,15,18 slides 9:17

restrooms 65:20 56:15 58:20 59:21 see 8:1 9:12 11:16 87:2,5 91:9 92:13 slightly 73:10

rests 78:22 64:18 66:13,18 12:2,11 21:9 92:21,22 93:3,5 small 63:17,19,20

result 20:3 44:6 71:1 84:18 94:14 31:16 33:3 38:13 93:10,13,15,17,21 64:11,17

Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc.

202-234-4433
Page 120 

smaller 29:13 44:15 69:10 71:3 starts 86:1,5 88:1 summed 79:10 51:22 60:5

Solar 57:17 72:3 81:17,19 state 22:8 57:12 94:22 96:20 98:3 technical 100:17

sold 54:7 68:7 87:7 92:12 104:10 58:2 105:8 supplement 72:11 technological 15:19

88:14 105:14,16 statements 8:8 supplemental 16:1 38:18

Solutions 1:14,21 stand 7:10 states 80:13 17:21 58:1,5 73:1 technologically

4:13 6:19 standard 16:21 stating 100:9 87:15 91:8,11 17:10 49:16

somebody 37:18 17:15 40:3,6 statutory 23:15 supplemented 42:2 technologies 22:12

song 82:11 45:16 46:18 50:15 45:13 42:9 22:20 25:9 32:3

sorry 19:9 33:11,12 51:1 59:11 72:19 step 39:16 41:3 suppliers 102:8 32:20 37:20 40:15

34:11 37:16 48:10 77:12,21 79:11,12 85:12 support 17:20 41:7 46:2 47:19

55:9 62:15 73:22 79:15 84:1,22 Stephen 1:15 4:15 100:17 54:9 55:2 103:18

86:1 98:15 93:1,1,9 94:20 11:16 45:20 sure 11:19 72:8 technology 3:6

sort 42:1 46:10 96:7,17 97:17 106:13,16 surprising 20:3 8:13 19:5 22:7,11

63:14 74:6 76:4 98:19 99:1 101:17 steps 60:1 surrounding 11:22 30:18,22 31:5,16

sorts 68:1 102:14,19 Steve 2:1 7:7 survey 22:19 74:5,8 31:22 32:6,20

sound 67:5 88:10 standards 1:3 2:2 Stevens 10:15 78:7 83:7 86:8 35:15 36:18,21

sounds 31:21 88:19 4:6 5:1 6:17 stock 85:2,6,22 susceptible 37:21 37:19 38:13 39:7

source 52:7 81:18 13:11,16 14:6,7,8 86:20,21 95:9,10 SUTHERLAND 44:5 45:4 55:17

96:1 15:21 16:18 18:9 95:16 2:7 telephones 11:2

sources 22:18 18:19,20 23:22 straight 58:21 system 11:3 25:12 temperature 75:11

32:12 69:12 71:18 24:7,15 30:20 strategies 22:12 25:15 33:16,17 temperatures

72:1 81:16 82:1 39:1 40:1 50:13 40:16 42:4 72:16,17 73:4,10 19:22 20:9 21:1,7

84:15 87:4 91:8 56:14,17,21 61:10 streams 26:3 91:8 102:11 92:6

94:4 99:21 62:9 63:6 64:2 stringent 14:8,12 systems 45:5,6 tended 90:21 92:5

Southern 1:18 6:13 66:13,18 84:12 structure 62:4 91:12 tentative 100:6

45:2 87:10 104:14 85:15 92:22 93:3 structures 60:7 S.W 1:11 TERESA 2:4

so-called 49:17 93:15,17,21 94:13 study 19:15,16 terms 14:8 16:22

space 34:6 94:16 96:15,21 20:16,19 T 20:15 25:18 59:10

speak 10:5,7 62:17 97:2,16 98:8 stuff 46:22 table 3:1 7:16 79:7 60:19 64:15 65:3

90:3 102:7 103:2,21 subgroup 3:12 9:1 79:8 74:8 95:18 96:5

special 60:18 87:19 105:5 101:13,21 tailor 61:12 test 3:6 8:12 15:14

specific 9:20 22:16 standby 15:16 17:3 subgroups 60:17 take 8:17 61:22 15:15 16:5,6,11

28:19 41:7 44:12 17:9,16 18:4,17 62:14 64:10 64:22 65:1,11 17:4,6,10 18:3,7

45:16 105:15 stands 103:17 subject 56:12 76:2 79:8 19:7,13 21:3,12

specifically 26:12 Star 16:16 29:19 submit 42:6 taken 33:14 47:16 21:14,19 22:4

28:5 30:1 51:4,9 52:7 submittal 42:17 takes 97:6,17 24:10 26:11 27:18

specified 16:9,10 52:20 53:14 93:20 submitting 13:4 talk 67:2,8,14 34:21 35:3,7,7,12

speed 90:21 105:6 Subpart 16:8 76:11,13,14 35:18,19 36:3,20

spend 80:6 Starr 2:6 46:9,9 subsequent 47:12 talked 101:10 44:2,8,13,18 45:8

split 14:22 88:8,8 89:4,9,11 subset 47:9 talking 12:7 16:4 51:18 74:18 75:9

spreadsheet 77:4 89:16,19 90:6 subtracts 95:8 19:2 25:6 66:16 75:15,18,19

stage 19:1 38:11 start 4:4,14 5:8,10 suggesting 89:14 tandem 25:11 tested 20:20 27:5,9

39:10 41:6 103:5 5:12,13 12:3,11 suggestions 81:20 target 15:8 27:15,20 35:5,11

stages 38:15 26:6 65:15,19 suggests 20:7 21:11 targeted 11:9 51:17

stakeholder 42:10 67:1 80:3 41:14 tax 68:19,21,21 testing 42:3

50:4 starting 19:4 24:11 sum 97:21,22 93:20 105:6 thank 5:7 10:18

stakeholders 28:1 60:2 96:15 summarize 82:21 tech 49:17 50:1,6,8 19:12 22:2,3 29:7

Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc.

202-234-4433
Page 121 

29:8 34:15 37:1,2 97:17 103:9 type 24:2 25:3 upcoming 14:6 values 53:20 95:16

38:6 46:6 47:6 106:12 33:20 24:14 40:2 64:5 97:10

49:13 52:22 53:22 timeline 15:4 types 15:2 34:2 update 15:12 variabilities 77:17

56:1 57:9 58:7 TIMOTHY 2:7,8 39:3 61:18 65:5 updated 18:7 variability 78:4

65:10 66:11,14 Title 16:7 typical 20:8 updates 15:17 variant 102:10,11

73:12 88:5,6 today 4:8 6:8 7:18 typically 5:10 10:7 updating 17:19 variation 41:15

91:13,14 92:10 7:21 9:3,9,15 10:5 26:5,22 75:10,14 upper 20:14 78:19 varies 70:5

105:1,2 106:5,6 11:6 65:18 66:12 77:6 up-to-date 104:19 variety 32:12 84:15

106:18 107:3,6 tool 104:4 usage 70:18,22 various 18:22

thanks 6:8,11 7:14 topic 56:8 57:3 U use 3:10 8:20 17:4 22:17,22 41:18

12:8 58:14 73:13 topics 62:2 UL 1:21 6:11 33:13 17:9 18:17 20:5 42:3,16 69:20

106:15 torn 41:22 37:17 73:16 22:17 25:8 31:15 verifying 62:5

theoretically 28:22 total 67:10,15 73:8 uncertainties 77:17 33:19 34:1 41:6 versions 87:13

thick 78:21 76:19 85:2 95:13 uncertainty 78:3 41:17 43:11,15 vintage 85:6 95:16

thing 67:13 83:12 97:21 98:4,5,11 unclear 44:10 45:7 60:13 61:17 vintage-dependent

90:7,18 98:14,14,17,21 uncovered 64:19 68:22 69:2,12,13 85:9

things 33:18 42:19 totally 72:16 underestimate 69:15,16 70:5,12 violating 72:18

60:1 70:17 88:15 touch 66:20 94:14 75:21 70:19 71:5,18,22 voluntary 23:1

88:16 104:15 96:2 101:4,9 understand 32:15 72:1,4 74:3,5,15 38:5 105:5

think 9:7 15:1 20:3 track 85:5 33:15 75:3,20,21 78:8

20:8,12 21:11 tracks 95:4 understanding 78:15 80:5 81:15 W

29:1 30:2 36:1,13 traded 68:14,16 29:15,19 61:8,21 83:17,21 85:7,9 walks 6:6

36:15,16 37:7 Trammell 10:15 89:2 86:9 92:12 94:3,4 Walter 6:14

44:11 45:2 47:2 transform 68:2 Underwriters 5:18 95:16,19 96:1,21 WALTNER 2:8

48:21 51:7 52:2,4 transitioning 80:2 unfinished 34:6 96:22 101:20 6:14

52:5 55:12 60:18 travels 107:6 uniform 83:18 102:9,10 want 14:13 15:11

65:5 73:5,7 75:13 trend 26:17 33:15 unintended 47:3 useful 8:18 14:6 54:16 57:15 65:11

75:16 82:7 88:9 87:19 91:18 unique 29:13,17 23:13 65:12 66:11,13

90:3,11,14 91:19 trends 22:10,19 54:19 uses 80:9,14 82:16 88:19 101:9

104:18 23:8 60:7 99:15 unit 36:4 48:22 95:2 103:16 106:17

thinking 11:17 TROY 2:7 71:15 72:13 76:5 usual 24:1 wants 9:5

28:14 truly 50:1 81:8 89:18 90:2,8 usually 88:14 warranted 44:16

third 76:17 80:2 try 11:11 60:16 90:10 91:5,5 Utilities 6:20 washers 56:18

90:18 65:13 88:22 95:12,13 99:8,11 utility 3:12 6:13 9:1 58:18 64:4

thorough 22:19 trying 10:21 units 19:18 21:16 24:5 29:13,17 Washington 1:11

thought 14:4 29:13 turn 11:1 16:17 22:14 24:17 25:6 37:14 39:2 80:10 4:9,10

91:21 58:11 65:8 106:13 25:9,17,21 26:5 102:5,6,20 104:5 watch 65:16

thoughts 31:4 39:6 turning 5:15 26:11,19 27:1,7 104:17 WATSON 2:7

81:11 105:22 27:13 29:14 34:2 U.S 1:1 4:4 7:8 way 4:11 27:17

three 43:6 65:4,5 two 16:11,18 18:9 35:8 39:22 40:4,8 33:19 68:17 70:12 28:17 73:6 89:22

68:8 80:21 81:4 26:3 29:21 42:17 40:12 48:7,14 93:4

91:8 52:11 55:18 58:21 50:16 51:5,14 V Wear 65:19

time 10:6,7 17:17 59:8 66:16 67:3 53:12,21 71:11 validate 69:1 web 10:8,22

19:8 38:22 46:5 71:7 77:9,13 85:18 88:11,12,13 value 19:20 51:15 week 13:17 56:20

56:13 57:22 58:4 80:22 84:20 85:17 89:1,2,5 90:22 63:10 82:17 95:1 weighted 99:3,16

59:4 60:15 63:14 86:16 96:13 97:10 91:1,2 104:16 96:5,8,9,21,22 welcome 3:3 4:4,18

73:18 76:21 94:8 100:19 105:18 unregulated 45:16 97:14 99:14 4:18 12:17 27:22

Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc.

202-234-4433
Page 122 

30:12 31:4 65:6 96:16 2:29 66:4 6

105:16 years 14:1 87:20 2:30 65:15 60 20:12

welcomes 40:14 88:1,3,3 96:7,18 200 26:8 62301 17:16,22

welcoming 4:15 97:18 2005 13:12 18:4

went 15:14 62:6 yield 98:2 2007 13:14,19 17:5 65 3:9 26:7

66:3 yields 98:9 30:8,19 70:14,21 68 79:10

we'll 7:10 65:15,22 Yolanda 10:17 2008 18:13

we're 66:5 Young 10:16 2009 13:20 87:17 7

we've 37:7

Whitehead 1:20 Z

2010 17:14

2011 56:20 100:8

75 20:5 40:7 48:5

50:15 51:3,6,6,12

66:8,9,11 73:20 zero 78:22 2012 1:8 13:17 14:7 52:9 53:11

74:2,20 75:2 76:1

76:10 80:1 81:14

82:4,10 88:4,21

$

$17 79:6,6

24:14 50:13

2014 15:8

2015 15:9

8

8E-089 1:10

89:7,10 90:5,13

92:11 94:11 105:2

106:6

wide 20:22 21:5

32:12

wider 44:5

Williams 10:17

Wilson 10:16

wishes 8:7 106:11

Witkowski 1:15

4:16,17 7:7,7

11:19 45:21,22

106:13,17

wondering 28:13

29:12 31:18 44:7

73:17

Woodford 10:16

words 35:19 54:16

85:9

work 82:8

working 54:8

world 21:17

worries 38:6

wouldn't 92:15

written 13:8

1

1 13:13,17 14:16

50:17 51:10 52:6

53:14 55:14

1.6 53:8

1.8 53:8

1.85 51:4

1:00 1:11

1:03 4:2

10 16:7 95:19

10K 68:13,15

10Ks 60:10

10,000 78:1,20

1000 1:11

106 3:14

12 3:6

12-month 70:20

13 80:12

14 43:22

15 43:22 65:14

95:19

16.8 79:7

17th 13:6,8 106:22

18 100:8

185 51:7

2016 15:10

2019 96:16

2048 96:18

24 1:8

24th 4:8

24-hour 24:9 71:14

25 14:16,17

3

3 14:20 53:3 55:15

3:17 107:9

3:45 9:4

30 96:18 97:17

32 79:12

35 14:17,21,22 48:3

50:19

35.01 52:12

4

4 3:3,4

43 52:4

430 16:8

45 14:22,22 48:4,4

50:19,21 52:12

53:5

80 20:9

861 80:9

9

93 68:5

X 1997 92:14 5

X 16:6

X1 18:16,18

2

2 14:16 53:3,5,12

5.5 54:2

50 20:18

500 63:21

Y 55:14,14 54 14:21,22 48:4,5

year 77:5,6 78:15

84:22 85:4,11

92:14 95:6,6

2.47 51:13

2.8 51:9

2:14 66:3

50:21 51:3,12

52:9 53:5,11

56 3:8

Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc.

202-234-4433
 

123

C E R T I F I C A T E
 

This is to certify that the foregoing transcript 


In the matter of: Conservation Standards for

Residential Dehumidifiers Meeting

Before: US DOE

Date: 09-24-12

Place: Washington, DC

was duly recorded and accurately transcribed under 


my direction; further, that said transcript is a 


true and accurate record of the proceedings. 


-----------------------

Court Reporter 

NEAL R. GROSS 

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com