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 DEPARTMENT OF ENERGY

 APPLIANCE STANDARDS AND RULEMAKING

 FEDERAL ADVISORY COMMITTEE

 Department of Energy

 1000 Independence Avenue, S.W.

 Washington, D.C.

 Friday, June 6, 2014

 1:04 p.m.

 Reported by: Christine Allen,

 Capital Reporting Company
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1 A P P E A R A N C E S

2 DOE REPRESENTATIVES:

3 Ashley Armstrong

 U.S. Department of Energy

4

 Daniel Cohen

5 U.S. Department of Energy, Gen. Counsel

6 John Cymbalsky

 U.S. Department of Energy (DFO)

7

ASRAC REPRESENTATIVES:

8

 Andrew deLaski

9 Co-Chair, Appliance Standards Awareness

 Project

10

 John Mandyck

11 Co-Chair, UTC Climate, Controls & Security

12 John Caskey

 National Electrical Manufacturers Association

13

 Steven Cousins

14 The Coca-Cola Company

15 Thomas Eckman

 Northwest Power and Conservation Council

16

 Dr. David Hungerford

17 California Energy Commission

18 Kelley Kline

 General Electric, Appliances

19

 Kent Peterson

20 P2S Engineering, Inc.

21 Jennifer Cleary

 Association of Home Appliance Manufacturers,

22 AHAM
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1 A P P E A R A N C E S (Cont.)

2 ASRAC REPRESENTATIVES (Cont.):

3 Scott Harris

 former DOE General Counsel's Office

4

INDUSTRY PARTICIPANTS:

5

 Karim Amrane

6 AHRI, Air Conditioning, Heating and

 Refrigeration Institute

7

 Don Brundage

8 Southern Company

9 Charles Hon

 True Manufacturing

10

 Anne McCarthy

11 NAFEM, North America Association of Food

 Equipment Manufacturers

12

 Charlie McCrudden

13 Air Conditioning Contractors of America

14 Rick Mendlen

 HUD, Manufactured Housing & Standards

15 Division

16 Steve Rosenstock

 EEI

17

 Aniruddh Roy

18 Goodman

19 Lois Starkey

 Manufactured Housing Institute

20

 Mark Weiss

21 MHARR, Manufactured Housing Association for

 Regulatory Reform

22
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1 A P P E A R A N C E S (Cont.)

2 INDUSTRY PARTICIPANTS (Cont.):

3 Robert Wilkins

 Danfoss

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22
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1 A G E N D A

2 Page

3 1. Welcome and Introductions 6

4 2. Call for Nominations 7

5 3. Introduction of New Members 8

6 4. Ground Rules Discussion 8

7 5. Pumps Working Group Status Update 10

8 6. Manufactured Housing Negotiated Rulemaking

 Discussion and Working Group Formation Vote 20

9

7. Regional Standards Enforcement Negotiated

10 Rulemaking Discussion and Working Group

 Formation Vote 41

11

8. AHRI Letter - Issues for Consideration on

12 Automatic Commercial Ice Makers 58

13 9. Open Discussion from Public 90

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22
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1 P R O C E E D I N G S

2 (1:04 p.m.)

3 MR. CYMBALSKY: Okay, as we deal with

4 that, let's get started. I'm John Cymbalsky from

5 the Department of Energy. I'm the DFO on ASRAC.

6 I want to welcome all of our members, and we have

7 also some members from the public here in the

8 meeting room.

9 This meeting has been a long time

10 coming, and I apologize for the length of time it

11 took to actually reach a quorum for the group. I

12 didn't think it would be that hard to get ten

13 people in a room, but apparently it takes four

14 months to do it.

15 In any event, we are going to go around

16 the room here and let everyone introduce

17 themselves that are at the table, then we can also

18 do that on the webinar, too.

19 MR. ROY: Aniruddh Roy with Goodman.

20 MR. WILKINS: Robert Wilkins, Danfoss.

21 MR. MENDLEN: Rick Mendlen, HUD.

22 MR. WEISS: Mark Weiss, Manufactured
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1 Housing Association for Regulatory Reform.

2 MS. STARKEY: Lois Starkey, the

3 Manufactured Housing Institute.

4 MR. McCRUDDEN: Charlie McCrudden, Air

5 Conditioning Contractors of America.

6 MR. AMRANE: Karim Amrane, AHRI.

7 MR. HON: Charlie Hon, True

8 Manufacturing.

9 MR. BRUNDAGE: Don Brundage, Southern

10 Company.

11 MS. ARMSTRONG: Ashley Armstrong, DOE.

12 MR. CYMBALSKY: Okay. Again, thanks for

13 all on the webinar. I think we have done our roll

14 call of members, and with that, we are going to

15 get started.

16 MR. CYMBALSKY: First, there is an

17 agenda item at the bottom that talks about the

18 call for nominations. That was actually published

19 in today's Federal Register. Why don't I just say

20 a couple of words about that.

21 As you know, membership cycles run

22 anywhere from one to three years in ASRAC. We
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1 have had a couple of members who were one year

2 cycles that were re-upped for a second year.

3 Those terms will be expiring towards the end of

4 the year. We will be looking to replace a few

5 members, and of course, we are always hoping to

6 add new members.

7 The Notice that was published today

8 seeks nominations from the public. Anyone who

9 wishes to join into the Committee or at least be

10 looked at by the Department, please get your

11 applications in. There are very detailed

12 instructions on how to do that. We welcome all

13 nominations, of course.

14 MR. CYMBALSKY: Today I would like to

15 start out by introducing a couple of new members

16 to ASRAC that were added. I'm going to say a few

17 words about these two individuals and then I will

18 let them say a few words about themselves.

19 First, we have Scott Harris, who is a

20 former GC, former General Counsel here at the

21 Department. In fact, he was the General Counsel

22 when I came on board on this job in 2010.
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1 Scott really was a champion of this

2 program, big supporter of the Appliance Standards

3 Program. He was very instrumental in setting up

4 the Enforcement Program as it exists today here at

5 DOE.

6 We definitely welcome him to the group.

7 Second, we have Jennifer Cleary from the

8 Association of Home Appliance Manufacturers. Jen

9 has worked very closely with the Department over

10 the past several years for these products. DOE

11 has had a very good working relationship in

12 working with the certification programs AHAM has.

13 Also, all the standards related to the AHAM

14 products.

15 With that, I will let Jen say a few

16 words about herself, and then followed by Scott.

17 Jen, would you like to say something?

18 MS. CLEARY: Sorry, I guess I was on

19 mute. Can you all hear me now?

20 MR. CYMBALSKY: Yes, you're good.

21 MS. CLEARY: Okay. I just wanted to say

22 I'm honored to be a part of the Committee and I'm
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1 really looking forward to working with everyone.

2 MR. CYMBALSKY: Okay. Thank you. Mr.

3 Harris?

4 MR. HARRIS: So, I'm good at working the

5 telephone, so I'm not on mute. That's one of the

6 few things I know how to do.

7 I am, like Jen, thrilled to be working

8 with you guys again. I loved my couple of years

9 as General Counsel at DOE. I loved working on

10 these issues. I loved working with folks in the

11 industry. I feel honored and thrilled to be

12 working with you guys again. Thank you.

13 MR. CYMBALSKY: Okay. Welcome back into

14 the fold, Scott.

15 MR. HARRIS: Thanks.

16 MR. CYMBALSKY: Okay. With that, we are

17 going to move to our next agenda item, which is to

18 talk about some ground rules. As I made mention

19 in the beginning here, we have had a hard time

20 reaching quorum to get a meeting going, so I think

21 we wanted to discuss a few issues surrounding the

22 rules.
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1 At this point, I'll turn it over to

2 either our Co-Chairs or to Ashley to discuss some

3 of the issues surrounding the ground rules.

4 MR. deLASKI: John, this is Andrew. Can

5 you hear me now?

6 MR. MANDYCK: John Mandyck. I think we

7 do have to look at the quorum requirements. Maybe

8 you can help by reminding us of what the quorum

9 rules are for ASRAC.

10 MS. ARMSTRONG: Yes. John and I are in

11 the process of pulling it up right now. Right

12 now, I think we have to have 75 percent to meet a

13 quorum, and it doesn't seem like we can do that

14 very easily.

15 MR. MANDYCK: One of the solutions could

16 be to just have a simple majority. That's one

17 option to throw out there. Andrew, if you have

18 thoughts here and John, please speak up.

19 MR. CYMBALSKY: Okay. I heard somebody

20 say simple majority.

21 MS. ARMSTRONG: Do any of the other

22 voting members have opinions here?
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1 MR. HARRIS: This is Scott. I think a

2 75 percent quorum is unusually and unnecessarily

3 high. I think going to a simple majority is fine.

4 UNIDENTIFIED: Andrew, are you back on

5 the line yet?

6 MR. deLASKI: I am. Can you hear me?

7 MR. CYMBALSKY: Yes, you're good,

8 Andrew.

9 MR. deLASKI: Yes. I think given the

10 nature of the Committee's work and the challenge

11 in getting a quorum over the past few months,

12 which actually has held up our work, I think a

13 simple majority would help the Committee to begin

14 its work in a more timely way, which has been the

15 problem this year.

16 MR. COUSINS: I would certainly favor a

17 simple majority as well. This is Steve Cousins.

18 MR. CYMBALSKY: Okay. Thanks, Steve.

19 Anyone else want to comment or do you want to just

20 take it to a vote?

21 UNIDENTIFIED: Let's take it to a vote.

22 MR. CYMBALSKY: Let's take it to a vote?
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1 Okay. I'll just ask if anyone dissents to please

2 speak up. Otherwise, we will assume an

3 affirmative vote to change the ground rules for

4 quorum to simple majority.

5 (No response.)

6 MR. CYMBALSKY: Okay. Hearing and

7 seeing no dissent, the motion carries. I feel

8 like a lawyer. I don't really talk like this

9 usually. Okay.

10 UNIDENTIFIED: But you do it really

11 well.

12 MR. CYMBALSKY: I think I need a pay

13 raise of some sort. Okay. Let's move on to our

14 next agenda item.

15 MR. CYMBALSKY: For the past few months,

16 the Pumps Working Group has been rolling up their

17 sleeves doing a lot of good work. I've attended a

18 few of the meetings, not many. I have kind of let

19 Lucas run things there. Ashley and I have

20 attended a few of the meetings.

21 I know Tom Eckman, who is a member of

22 ASRAC and on the line, has been to all the
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1 meetings, has been intimately involved in the

2 negotiations. We are going to turn it over to Tom

3 to give us a brief update on how things have been

4 going and where things stand at the moment. Tom?

5 MR. ECKMAN: Okay. Thank you, John.

6 Can you hear me?

7 MR. CYMBALSKY: Yes, loud and clear.

8 MR. ECKMAN: Okay; good. ASRAC should

9 have received an interim report that Doug Brookman

10 and Alison put together on the progress that we

11 have made in the Work Group so far. I will go

12 through some of the highlights of that and then

13 take questions.

14 I think the high level summary is that

15 we are making good progress, and I think we will

16 be able to complete our task in the appointed

17 time. That is sort of the top level.

18 We have managed to narrow the scope of

19 what we are going to consider. We are pretty

20 close to arriving at a metric on how to measure

21 efficacy of pumps.

22 I think the biggest breakthrough there
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1 has been treating the pumps as a system, so that

2 we can not only measure the efficiency of the bare

3 pump itself, but also include in that an

4 evaluation of the drivers and controls, which over

5 time will allow us to differentiate between the

6 system efficiency and the bare pump efficiency,

7 and indicate to both consumers and program

8 operators that there is a difference between high

9 performance pumps and high performance pumping

10 systems.

11 That will allow utility programs to

12 encourage better performance and also allow

13 consumers to select pumping systems that have

14 better performance and just a slightly improved

15 pump.

16 That is a good agreement that we have

17 reached or are pretty close to reaching on the

18 metric.

19 The other aspect of this that is now up

20 for discussion is we are now at the point of

21 arriving at what standards we can come to

22 agreement on.
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1 That discussion will happen at the June

2 and potentially July meetings when we get to

3 resolution of the one term that we do have

4 agreement on, and that we believe an additional

5 scope of standards' coverage for circulating pumps

6 and pool pumps ought to be taken up by DOE pretty

7 quickly following this.

8 It looks from the initial analysis that

9 those two types of pumps have opportunities for

10 savings, and they are at least twice as large as

11 the group we are looking at. We want to make sure

12 we get those in the fold.

13 MR. WILKINS: That was circulating pumps

14 and what?

15 MR. ECKMAN: Pool pumps. There is a

16 much more detailed synopsis of what has gone on

17 and where we stand that Doug Brookman put together

18 that you should have received by e-mail from

19 Jeremiah. You can look at that at your leisure to

20 see the details.

21 I think that is pretty much the synopsis

22 of where we are.
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1 MR. CYMBALSKY: Tom, this is John from

2 DOE. Maybe I missed it. Did you say you thought

3 the chances of coming to some sort of a negotiated

4 standard were high?

5 MR. ECKMAN: I think so.

6 MR. CYMBALSKY: Okay. Thank you. Any

7 questions from the Committee on the pumps?

8 MR. PETERSON: This is Kent, John. The

9 only question I have is relative to when we think

10 something is coming out of the Working Group for a

11 vote to ASRAC. Is that going to be some time

12 after the July meeting?

13 MR. CYMBALSKY: That's right.

14 MR. ECKMAN: I would say so; yes. It

15 may be June. We will see where we get. I think

16 we have time reserved on the calendar for a July

17 meeting to close up some loose ends and maybe make

18 recommendations more finely tuned. We will see

19 where we get.

20 Each of the sides made their first

21 initial offer at the prior meeting a week ago.

22 They are digesting the manufacturing impact and
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1 the net present value consumer impacts. We will

2 be back at the table in a week to discuss that

3 again.

4 I am hopeful at that June meeting we can

5 come to resolution, but it may take until July.

6 MR. CYMBALSKY: I think from DOE's

7 schedule point of view for a proposal, I think we

8 have in our regulatory agenda that by the end of

9 the year we wanted to have a proposal. The

10 schedule looks real good for us and for the

11 Committee. I think voting by ASRAC should be

12 before the end of the summer.

13 MR. PETERSON: Thank you.

14 MR. deLASKI: John, this is a question

15 from Andrew deLaski to the Department. How long

16 would you expect it to take from the time DOE

17 receives the recommendation from ASRAC until you

18 can actually issue a proposed rule in the Federal

19 Register?

20 MR. CYMBALSKY: There's a 90 day review

21 period. I would say we would have to draft it.

22 It would take a good month or two at least for
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1 that. I think we are really at a good place to

2 have something out by the end of the year at this

3 point.

4 MR. deLASKI: Okay. Thank you.

5 MS. ARMSTRONG: Just as an aside, we

6 also have to draft the proposed test procedures to

7 go along with it at the same time.

8 MR. deLASKI: Understood. You really

9 need it from ASRAC--you need that vote in order to

10 hit that end of the year milestone. It is

11 important that you hit the August milestone or

12 September 1 milestone for approval by ASRAC?

13 MR. CYMBALSKY: Yes, absolutely. Now

14 that our rules require only a simple majority to

15 have a quorum, I think we will have an easier time

16 to do that.

17 MR. deLASKI: Right. Okay. Thank you.

18 MR. CYMBALSKY: Okay. Anything else on

19 pumps?

20 MR. deLASKI: I would just commend the

21 Committee for the good work that is going on

22 there. We have a staff person from our
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1 organization who is involved. I know there has

2 been, I think, monthly meetings and conference

3 calls in between. There have been a lot of hours

4 put into that effort so far on the part of Tom and

5 all the other Committee members.

6 I know many are--at least I heard a few

7 of them introduce themselves. I appreciate the

8 work going on to come up with a consensus

9 proposal.

10 MR. CYMBALSKY: I would echo that. This

11 is John from DOE. Tom, thanks so much for the

12 update, appreciate it.

13 MR. ECKMAN: Sure.

14 MR. CYMBALSKY: Moving right along, we

15 are going to get to the next agenda item. We have

16 passed around some letters we have received, two

17 different correspondences to the Department, in

18 support of forming a working group to negotiate

19 standards for manufactured housing.

20 I will ask Andrew deLaski, the Co-Chair

21 of ASRAC, to take the floor. Thank you.

22 MR. deLASKI: Sure. I'll introduce this
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1 topic and I will look to John and Ashley to, of

2 course, fill in some of the details. I'm not

3 expert in DOE's obligations and work in the area

4 of manufactured housing. I have been tracking

5 this some over the past few years, but many of the

6 organizations that we work with are more involved.

7 My understanding of a bit of the

8 background is that DOE has a legal obligation to

9 develop energy efficiency requirements/standards

10 for manufactured housing. It is an obligation

11 that DOE shares with HUD, and in fact, the primary

12 responsibility may lie with HUD, with DOE in a

13 collaborative role.

14 My understanding of the timing of this

15 is the obligation was established several years

16 ago. A proposed rule was written and submitted to

17 OMB for review in 2011, as the letters that were

18 provided to ASRAC described. It sat at OMB for a

19 couple of years, I think was there approximately

20 more than two years.

21 I believe it has now been withdrawn by

22 the agencies from OMB review. My understanding is
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1 now the agencies have decided that they aren't

2 satisfied with what they initially submitted to

3 OMB and feel the need to write a revised proposed

4 rule rather than was what initially drafted and

5 submitted but never published.

6 What we see here is this letter from

7 March from the Manufactured Housing Institute.

8 They describe who they are, which I would describe

9 them as a vertically integrated trade association

10 including both manufacturers of the products,

11 retailers, suppliers, lenders, and community

12 owners, essentially asking for a negotiated

13 rulemaking to unstick this particular rule and to

14 get to a consensus that the agencies can act on.

15 Then we have a May 30 letter signed by

16 MHI--actually, May 28 letter signed by MHI, along

17 with Natural Resources Defense Council, California

18 Energy Commission, National Manufactured

19 Homeowners Association, National Association of

20 Energy Offices, Corporation for Enterprise

21 Development, Environmental and Energy Study

22 Institute, Systems Building Research Alliance,
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1 National Rural Electric Cooperative Association,

2 Washington State University Extension Program,

3 ACEEE, Corporate Energy Efficiency Alliance, and

4 the responsible energy co-alliances.

5 It is a broad-based letter which is

6 similar to the letter submitted by MHI back in

7 March, also asking for a working group from ASRAC

8 to address this rulemaking, to develop energy

9 standards for manufactured housing.

10 I think that's the thumbnail sketch of

11 where this process is at. There appears to be a

12 desire on the part of both the Department and on

13 the part of a broad set of stakeholders to advance

14 this through a Reg Neg process.

15 Based on that kind of support, my

16 thought and my recommendation is that we would

17 want to support and recommend to DOE to create a

18 working group to attempt to negotiate a proposed

19 rule for manufactured housing.

20 John, have I got some of the details

21 right or are there things you want to correct or

22 add to?
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1 MR. COHEN: Andrew, this is Dan Cohen

2 from DOE General Counsel's Office. Minor

3 corrections on what Andrew described there. HUD

4 has legal authority to regulate the manufactured

5 housing industry on a broad basis. Arguably, they

6 could establish regulations dealing with energy

7 efficiency, but they have not.

8 In 2007, there was a statutory amendment

9 that authorized and directed the Energy Department

10 to establish energy efficiency standards for

11 manufactured housing.

12 We are supposed to do that in

13 consultation with HUD, and then HUD has the

14 ability, if they so choose, to consult a committee

15 they have similar to ASRAC, that is dedicated to

16 manufacturing housing.

17 In HUD's statute, this committee is set

18 up to advise them on any rulemaking's they do on

19 manufacturing housing.

20 It is DOE's responsibility, and it was

21 actually due in December of 2011 that we were

22 supposed to have issued this rulemaking, and then
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1 for a variety of reasons, it didn't happen,

2 although as Andrew pointed out, there was a

3 proposed rule that was submitted to OMB in 2011.

4 That's the only clarification. It is

5 actually DOE's authority to do this rulemaking,

6 but in consultation with--

7 MR. HARRIS: Dan, I have a quick

8 question.

9 MR. COHEN: Yes.

10 MR. HARRIS: As I understand what you

11 are saying, we could go through this whole process

12 and then we would have to coordinate with DOT--

13 HUD, rather, and they would have to decide whether

14 or not to send this to their committee for review

15 and stuff like that.

16 If that's correct, does it make any

17 sense to sort of shortcut the process and tell

18 them, hey, we're thinking about doing this, do you

19 want to participate in it with us or review it,

20 you know, as we are doing it, or tell us you don't

21 care, so we can go ahead?

22 So we don't go through this whole effort
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1 and then find somehow it has to be started again

2 in a different committee in a different agency.

3 MR. COHEN: Two things. This is Dan

4 Cohen again. One, HUD doesn't have to under the

5 statute consult their committee. They have the

6 ability to. They could choose not to, I guess.

7 MR. HARRIS: Right.

8 MR. COHEN: The other thing is they are

9 here today.

10 MR. HARRIS: Oh, great, then I'm not

11 concerned.

12 MS. ARMSTRONG: We have a question from

13 Steve Rosenstock. "Was there any explanation

14 given as to why the rule was at OMB for two plus

15 years?"

16 MR. HARRIS: It's OMB.

17 MS. ARMSTRONG: Okay, Scott will answer

18 it for us.

19 (Laughter.)

20 MR. COHEN: Unfortunately, we are not at

21 liberty to discuss that.

22 MR. HARRIS: It's OMB. I'm happy to
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1 discuss that off line with anybody any time.

2 MR. CYMBALSKY: In my introduction of

3 Scott, I forgot to mention that he's a very candid

4 person to talk to.

5 MR. COHEN: You mentioned he used to be

6 my boss.

7 MR. CYMBALSKY: Yes.

8 MS. ARMSTRONG: Do you guys want to say

9 anything else before the Committee--do you guys

10 have anything you want to say to the Committee

11 before your vote?

12 MS. STARKEY: I would just say on behalf

13 of MHI, and I know the other stakeholders that

14 signed the letter whom we have been working with

15 for about a year and a half to move a standard

16 forward, that MHI has drafted at least something

17 to start with.

18 We are very interested in working with

19 HUD and DOE to try to get something moving that

20 everyone could agree to, and get something adopted

21 as quickly as possible.

22 MR. WEISS: Mark Weiss with MHARR. Our
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1 group represents smaller producers of manufactured

2 housing, HUD Code manufactured housing.

3 Our concern principally would relate to

4 the nature of the committee and its procedures

5 here at DOE. We know through HUD we have the

6 Manufactured Housing Consensus Committee, which is

7 balanced according to the law that established it,

8 and we know what kind of representation we have

9 among various stakeholders on that committee.

10 We believe it is essential that

11 committee have a role at a meaningful point in

12 developing and considering any standard, whether

13 it comes out of the Department or whether it comes

14 out of HUD.

15 Our principal concern at this point

16 would be how this working group is formed, to make

17 sure it has proper balance, similar to the MHCC,

18 to make sure the interests of smaller businesses

19 are properly represented, and that the procedures

20 are as transparent as what we have with the MHCC.

21 MR. COHEN: This is Dan Cohen again from

22 General Counsel's Office here at DOE. The
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1 procedures we used to develop these committees

2 after ASRAC has sanctioned the establishment of a

3 working group--we follow the procedures under the

4 Negotiated Rulemaking Act and FACA to ensure that

5 we have a balance of interested parties.

6 We would get a third party neutral to go

7 out and look at who are the parties who are

8 involved in the industry who could be at that

9 table. We would put a Federal Register Notice out

10 to solicit nominees, go through a process of

11 vetting to make sure we do have in fact that

12 balance of parties.

13 That's basically the process we have

14 used for the negotiated rulemaking's that we have

15 done. It seems to come up with reasonably balanced

16 groups.

17 MR. WEISS: Thank you. One additional

18 question I would have, I don't know if you're in a

19 position to respond at this point. What is the

20 starting point for the working group? Is the

21 starting point the previous rule, draft rule? It

22 doesn't sound that way since it was withdrawn.
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1 What is the starting point and who determines

2 that? Is that determined by the working group

3 itself or

4 DOE?

5 MR. COHEN: The working group would set

6 that up with the scope of the rulemaking. One of

7 the main things that would have to change anyway,

8 the statute requires that the rulemaking be based

9 on the most recent version of the IECC, the

10 Building Code that applies with residential

11 buildings.

12 The draft proposed rule was based on a

13 2012 IECC. As you are well aware of, I'm sure,

14 the 2015 IECC is about to be finalized. The

15 premise of that proposed rule is sort of out the

16 door and we sort of have to start again.

17 MR. WEISS: Thank you; appreciate it.

18 MR. PETERSON: Dan Cohen, this is Kent

19 Peterson. I just have a question for you relative

20 to the ASRAC Charter. Does this fall under our

21 Charter? Have you looked at that already?

22 MR. COHEN: Yes, we have. Yes, and
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1 that's not a problem. It is an energy efficiency

2 standard.

3 MR. PETERSON: But it does say for

4 residential appliances and commercial equipment?

5 MR. COHEN: Yes, and one of the last

6 ones is "Other topics as assigned by the

7 Secretary" in the same purview.

8 MR. PETERSON: Okay.

9 MR. WEISS: Real quick question. That

10 reminded me of something I wanted to ask actually.

11 Is the Charter on line, available on line, or is

12 that something we could get here today?

13 MR. PETERSON: The Charter is on the

14 ASRAC website.

15 MR. WEISS: Great. Thank you.

16 MR. MENDLEN: A couple of comments.

17 Rick Mendlen with HUD. First of all, Dan, I want

18 to correct one of the things you did say earlier,

19 and that is HUD does have energy efficiency

20 standards. They were last published in 1993.

21 Recently, we are going about updating the actual

22 appliance efficiency standards as well as those in
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1 recent rulemaking.

2 We do have energy efficiency standards.

3 They are just a little out of date, I think. I

4 wanted to make that comment.

5 We certainly intend to work with you

6 fully throughout the rulemaking process. I think

7 there are many challenges that are going to be

8 before the working group and both of our agencies

9 in melding these standards together to make them

10 work in accordance with your requirements and our

11 requirements, and also how those standards are

12 going to be enforced.

13 There is a lot of work to be done in

14 working all these things out, both technically and

15 legally. Looking forward to the challenge.

16 MR. COHEN: Agreed. Thank you for the

17 clarification. I didn't know that.

18 MR. CYMBALSKY: Any other comments from

19 the ASRAC membership? I think we do need to talk

20 about what exactly the group is going to charter

21 the working group to do. We have heard the word

22 "enforcement" mentioned here. We also have the
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1 standards.

2 The letters that I have read from the

3 stakeholders clearly point out the time element of

4 completing negotiations. In my thinking, we can't

5 make the scope of this too large, I mean, are we

6 just focusing on the standards for this group or

7 not.

8 Does anyone have comment on that?

9 MS. STARKEY: Yes, this is Lois Starkey

10 at MHI. I think the first and initial challenge

11 and the real opportunity here is for the group to

12 get a standard, a consensus standard.

13 I think you will find as you move

14 forward through the process, as Rick pointed out,

15 there is a pretty comprehensive regulatory and

16 enforcement system within the HUD regs.

17 If you were to look at a model like they

18 did--EPA has done, the Congress did with the wood

19 formaldehyde emission products, they asked EPA to

20 set the standard, and they explicitly said HUD

21 shall adopt the standard.

22 I think that could be worked out either
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1 in a Memorandum of Understanding or something down

2 the line. I think the feeling of MHI particularly

3 and this group as well is to really focus on the

4 standard because as we pointed out, we'd like to

5 see something by the end of this year, September

6 would be ideal, that is a real challenge in and of

7 itself.

8 It would be our recommendation that you

9 focus on the standards.

10 MR. CYMBALSKY: Okay. Thank you.

11 Andrew, any thoughts on that? A response?

12 MR. deLASKI: Yeah, I agree. That seems

13 to be what the request is from the stakeholders,

14 in the broader stakeholder letters, as well as in

15 the second bullet on that letter, it requests that

16 the committee be held to a minimum number of

17 meetings, for example, two meetings to be

18 completed by September, so that is already fairly

19 ambitious.

20 I think the idea here would be to see if

21 some progress can be made on the standard, and if

22 progress can be made there, then you look to the
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1 experts who will be on the committee to say what

2 are the next steps, and are those things you want

3 to--I would suggest the working group would have

4 to come back to ASRAC to have its charter extended

5 or expanded rather than to give it sort of an

6 open- ended sort of charter.

7 I would suggest that we keep it focused

8 on developing a recommended standard and to report

9 back to us within a fairly limited time frame here

10 on progress.

11 MR. CYMBALSKY: Okay. Thanks. Any

12 other ASRAC members on the phone have any comments

13 before I open it back up to public comment?

14 MR. ECKMAN: John, this is Tom Eckman.

15 I also support keeping the bandwidth of activity

16 focused on the efficiency standard.

17 I was on the National Commission for

18 Manufactured Housing back in 1992. We dealt with

19 the enforcement issue and how well or how poorly

20 it was done. It is a much broader scope problem

21 than could be resolved by September. Given the

22 lateness of the compliance with getting a standard
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1 out, I think focusing the work group on that first

2 and then as Andrew said, considering whether the

3 scope needs to be enlarged later for dealing with

4 the enforcement issue, compliance issue, is a

5 better step-wise process.

6 MR. CYMBALSKY: Thanks, Tom. Anybody

7 else?

8 MS. CLEARY: This is Jen. I just have a

9 question. I'm wondering how if at all the

10 activities of this group will impact the time line

11 of some of the other things that are going on,

12 both within the Department and within the ASRAC

13 subgroups.

14 MR. CYMBALSKY: This is John. I don't

15 think this will impact any of that. We're going

16 to appoint an ASRAC member who is not serving on

17 one of the other working groups already, and I

18 think the DOE person for this rule, his time will

19 not be impacted on this. My quick answer will be

20 little to no impact at all.

21 Any other ASRAC members? We have a

22 couple of hands here in the room for the public
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1 comment.

2 (No response.)

3 MR. CYMBALSKY: Okay. Rick?

4 MR. MENDLEN: John, I failed to mention

5 that with this time line that Lois had suggested,

6 we are just reformulating our Manufactured Home

7 Consensus Committee. We would want an opportunity

8 to present whatever this working group develops to

9 that committee for their recommendations and

10 comments as well. I don't think you can do it in

11 two months or three months or whatever time we're

12 talking about here.

13 I think we are going to need more time

14 than that in order to get a full consultation and

15 recommendations provided by that group, our group.

16 MS. ARMSTRONG: This is Ashley. I would

17 suggest at least as a charter, for them to shoot

18 for September, to check back in, and then the

19 committee as part of their update can work with

20 you to see how that consultation will work.

21 MR. COHEN: This is Dan. Can I ask a

22 question on that?
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1 MR. MENDLEN: Sure.

2 MR. COHEN: When you say you are

3 "reconstituting," you are in just a normal FACA

4 process of new membership?

5 MR. MENDLEN: It's new membership.

6 There are issues to establish a new contractor to

7 administer the FACA Committee. We are just

8 getting started with a meeting at the end of this

9 month actually.

10 MR. COHEN: You have actually gone--you

11 have identified new members and all that?

12 MR. MENDLEN: Yes.

13 MR. COHEN: That sounds like actually

14 the timing might work out.

15 MS. STARKEY: Yes. It's my

16 understanding that they do want to have another

17 meeting of the Consensus Committee at HUD in the

18 fall. That's the plan. I suspect that will

19 happen, and particularly if they have an energy

20 proposal to look at.

21 MR. CYMBALSKY: Okay. This is John.

22 I'm going to try to word this carefully to put it
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1 to a vote. The motion here is to charter a

2 working group to explore negotiating energy

3 efficiency standards for manufactured housing. I

4 guess at the end, as we have done for the other

5 working groups, there is a time element here.

6 We would need someone to recommend a

7 date for which this working group--the working

8 group's charter would go to or expire without

9 asking for more time. If anyone wants to put a

10 date up there, we have the stakeholders.

11 September 30? There are 30 days in

12 September.

13 MR. deLASKI: It's Andrew. I think you

14 need to say September 30. It's going to take you

15 some time, at least a few weeks here, to

16 constitute the working group. You're talking even

17 if you can meet for the first time in July--I

18 think September

19 30.

20 MR. CYMBALSKY: Okay. Anyone in the

21 room, the stakeholders?

22 (No response.)
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1 MR. CYMBALSKY: Okay. We will go with

2 that. Is there any dissent from the ASRAC

3 membership on that charter?

4 (No response.)

5 MR. CYMBALSKY: Okay. Hearing none, now

6 I will ask for a volunteer from ASRAC to serve on

7 the committee. I did get a note from one of our

8 members who said he would do it if no one else

9 volunteered. Does anyone on the phone line want

10 to volunteer?

11 MR. HARRIS: This is Scott Harris. I'm

12 happy to do one of these committees. I don't know

13 if this is the right one for me. I have no

14 background in this area. If you all think it

15 would be useful for me to do it, I am happy to do

16 it. I leave that to you all, you know all about

17 this.

18 MR. CYMBALSKY: We're going to save you

19 for the next one, I think.

20 MR. HARRIS: I wondered about that

21 actually.

22 MR. CYMBALSKY: You do have some
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1 experience there. John Caskey has volunteered to

2 serve on the committee.

3 MR. MENDLEN: What is his name?

4 MR. CYMBALSKY: John Caskey of NEMA.

5 MR. MENDLEN: Can you spell it?

6 MR. CYMBALSKY: C-a-s-k-e-y.

7 MR. MENDLEN: Thank you.

8 MR. CYMBALSKY: In his volunteer letter

9 to me, he suggested he's not an expert in the

10 area, however, his members do have some skin in

11 this outcome, and he would be very happy to serve.

12 Okay. I think we have gone through the

13 manufactured housing. We talked a little bit

14 about the regional standards, so at this point;

15 I'm going to turn the floor over to John Mandyck,

16 the other Co-Chair of ASRAC, to introduce this

17 topic.

18 MR. MANDYCK: Thank you, John. As many

19 people know, in 2011, the Department issued a

20 final rule for residential heating and cooling

21 standards in the country. It adopted a new

22 approach for the first time with a regional
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1 standard. There were actually three regions that

2 were adopted, a north region, a south region, and

3 a southwest region for heating and cooling.

4 So this was a breakthrough, it was

5 actually part of a consensus agreement that was

6 negotiated between the advocates and the

7 manufacturers for several years before that.

8 Shortly after the rule was published in

9 2011, effective January 1, 2015, parts of the rule

10 were challenged in litigation. That litigation

11 was settled just this past April, the outcome of

12 which is that the heating, residential heating

13 standard part of this has been remanded back to

14 DOE for a new rulemaking, but the residential

15 cooling piece of this continues on to take effect

16 in just six months now, on January 1, 2015.

17 Given the close proximity now of the

18 effective date, the Department has agreed not to

19 enforce the standard for 18 months to allow for

20 the depletion of channel inventory and the

21 reconfiguration of inventory now that there is a

22 regionality to the new standard.
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1 This brings us to the enforcement of

2 regional standards. Interestingly, when Congress

3 directed DOE to consider regional standards, it

4 also directed DOE to commence an enforcement

5 rulemaking on regional standards. It is required

6 by the legislation.

7 I think the unique nature of that is

8 because of the regional complexity. Before now,

9 the standards have been enforced essentially at

10 the point of manufacture, and that has taken care

11 of the enforcement. Now that there are multiple

12 standards allowed for the country, the issue of

13 enforcement is a question that has to be resolved.

14 I know that several parties including

15 AHRI and ACCA and HARDI have been working hard to

16 proactively think about what would be the best way

17 to think about enforcement. I know there is broad

18 support for a working group to be established by

19 the ASRAC on this, and for me, I think this is the

20 perfect reason why we would have a working group.

21 This is going to require a lot of

22 discussion, a lot of brain storming, a lot of
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1 problem solving. I think it is ideal for a

2 working group, and that is the discussion we

3 wanted to tee up today.

4 MR. deLASKI: This is Andrew. A

5 question for either of the John's or anyone else

6 who can answer it. What are the thoughts on

7 timing for the Department to issue a proposed

8 rule?

9 Obviously, as John already referenced,

10 this is a challenging situation because the timing

11 has been impacted by the litigation delaying DOE's

12 work on the enforcement approach.

13 What is the thought on timing for

14 getting a proposed rule in place?

15 MS. ARMSTRONG: This is Ashley from DOE.

16 I think our answer is as soon as possible. I'm

17 going to turn the question around a little bit,

18 and since Charlie is here and he is sitting right

19 next to Karim, and we have their lovely letter on

20 our screen, what do you think is reasonable for

21 ASRAC to consider if we were to charter a working

22 group in terms of time line and deadlines to
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1 negotiate something like this?

2 MR. McCRUDDEN: This is Charlie. My

3 first question back though would be--

4 (Laughter.)

5 MR. McCRUDDEN: Timing-wise, obviously

6 we could start today the process. I think the

7 process requires a 30 day notice, notice in the

8 Federal Register, to constitute the working group,

9 and then 30 days for you to review. At some

10 point, you then decide what are we talking about,

11 when could we physically convene, based on the

12 process and procedures you have to go through.

13 MR. CYMBALSKY: Honestly, we hope to get

14 the notice out as soon as Monday or Tuesday, like

15 in the public, not published. The thought is a

16 two week time period to solicit nominations.

17 MR. McCRUDDEN: Two weeks?

18 MR. CYMBALSKY: Two weeks. Then we get

19 them, and then another couple of weeks to--

20 MS. ARMSTRONG: The key here is that

21 ASRAC has to vote on the members of the working

22 group, so we will need ASRAC to get back together.
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1 Luckily, we only need a simple majority.

2 When we did it for commercial HVAC, I

3 think we were able to start within about 45 days

4 or so roughly, maybe 60, but no more than that.

5 Definitely, things got started pretty quickly for

6 DOE.

7 MR. HARRIS: This is Scott. Quick

8 question. Once we have members for the committee

9 to vote on, can't we just do that by sort of e10 mail and do it seriatim rather than trying to

11 convene a meeting just for that purpose?

12 MS. ARMSTRONG: Yes. We did a quick

13 webinar, a quick phone vote last time, but yes, we

14 can do it either way.

15 MR. deLASKI: I thought it was useful to

16 be on the phone. I think it was helpful to get a

17 balanced committee to do it by phone by those that

18 could.

19 MS. ARMSTRONG: There was some

20 discussion of specific considerations and that

21 kind of stuff last time.

22 MR. COHEN: This is Dan. Scott will
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1 appreciate this, too, and some of the delay or

2 time constraint here is our office, although not

3 mine particularly, because once members are

4 identified, there is a certain process it has to

5 go through to make sure--there are certain

6 conflict issues and what not that are vetted,

7 which in the case of negotiated rulemaking are

8 less because the members are actually coming to

9 represent an interest, so there is the expectation

10 they have a stake in the outcome.

11 There is still a process, certain

12 paperwork and whatever requirements.

13 MR. CYMBALSKY: There are approvals up

14 the chain here at DOE to approve the membership as

15 well.

16 MS. ARMSTRONG: Let's say we have our

17 first meeting in August. Where does that leave

18 you?

19 MR. McCRUDDEN: I guess I'll be at the

20 beach.

21 MS. ARMSTRONG: Good for you.

22 MR. McCRUDDEN: Just thinking, August
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1 may be tricky to convene folks because that tends

2 to be vacation time. Maybe not. I'm not trying

3 to cause a delay here; I'm just saying that may be

4 something to think about.

5 I think we are eager to get started as

6 quickly as possible. I'm just trying to figure

7 out when and how quickly that could be.

8 MR. AMRANE: This is Karim. Let me ask

9 a question to DOE. Once the working group is done

10 with the negotiations, how long will it take for

11 DOE to go through the process for the rule?

12 MS. ARMSTRONG: It's the same thing as

13 we said before, it will take drafting, it will

14 take review by Counsel's Office. It will take at

15 least some type of consultation with OIRA for a

16 determination. It may take up to 90 days, it may

17 take less. It just depends. It could take six

18 months, could take less.

19 MR. AMRANE: I would say no later than

20 October.

21 MS. ARMSTRONG: Okay. Then the ask is

22 three months, so October.
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1 MR. MANDYCK: Can I also ask another

2 procedural question? I know part of the issue

3 with the enforcement question comes down to the

4 FTC label. If we were to form a working group,

5 what is your advice? Do we invite FTC to

6 participate? Do we really compound things if we

7 have to go in tandem with kind of a DOE process

8 and then an FTC process that follows? Now we are

9 well into 2015.

10 MR. CYMBALSKY: This is John. Yes, we

11 can have FTC come to the meetings and participate.

12 I think they would have to do their own rulemaking

13 on the label. Sort of out of our hands in terms

14 of ASRAC. Certainly, they can be in the room and

15 participate in whatever information wants to be

16 presented to FTC.

17 MR. COHEN: Just to be clear about that18 - this is Dan--the label is FTC's authority. We

19 can't really negotiate that. They certainly can

20 be privy to the conversations that are happening

21 in that process.

22 MR. AMRANE: They would have to be in
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1 the room to understand the issues.

2 MR. COHEN: Of course.

3 MS. ARMSTRONG: This is Ashley. Does

4 anyone else on ASRAC have any questions before we

5 put this to a vote? Or does anybody else in the

6 room want to say anything?

7 MR. BRUNDAGE: Don Brundage, Southern

8 Company. I wish you would review a little bit how

9 significant is the January 1 deadline since the

10 settlement of the legal issues was a suspension of

11 enforcement for 18 months? What happens January

12 1, 2015 instead of July 1, 2016?

13 MR. COHEN: So the standard is in effect

14 on January 1, 2015. Our not enforcing it doesn't

15 mean that compliance isn't required. There is at

16 least for the manufacturers and installers--

17 presumably they are going to be looking for what

18 they need to do to comply with the standards'

19 requirement, regardless of whether we are going to

20 be out there taking any enforcement actions with

21 regard to it.

22 MR. MANDYCK: Correct me if I'm wrong, I
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1 believe the non-enforcement provision is for the

2 sale of inventory which is existing products. Is

3 that not correct?

4 MR. COHEN: I was hoping to avoid that

5 nicety. The non-enforcement is applicable to

6 product manufactured prior to January 1, 2015. It

7 can be sold through until July 1, 2016.

8 MR. BRUNDAGE: Okay. A follow up to

9 that, since SEER 13 equipment is still legal in

10 the northern half of the country, in that region,

11 and there is not anything distinguishing about

12 where equipment is manufactured for, is there

13 really any manufacturing regulation that comes due

14 to this?

15 MR. McCRUDDEN: Correct me if I'm wrong,

16 the label will change on January 1, 2015. An

17 appliance manufactured on January 1, 2015 will

18 carry a different label than the one manufactured

19 on December 31, 2014.

20 I believe there's some indication on the

21 label about regional standards. This comes from

22 the FTC side of things. I think for the label it
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1 says this product is legal for all regions,

2 meaning 14 and above, and 13 says this product is

3 to go for only in the north.

4 MR. AMRANE: The issue is 413s here,

5 it's the national standard, so really the

6 enforcement rulemaking is really for the regional

7 standards.

8 MR. BRUNDAGE: Thank you.

9 MS. ARMSTRONG: Anybody else have any

10 final questions before we vote?

11 (No response.)

12 MS. ARMSTRONG: Okay. I think the ask

13 of ASRAC is to charter a working group to

14 negotiate regional standards' enforcement by

15 October. Does anyone--

16 MR. HARRIS: This is Scott. I vote in

17 favor of chartering such a group.

18 MR. COUSINS: I'm a little bit confused

19 by this. This is Steve Cousins. Is it the

20 working group would set the standard for

21 residential heating or is it just to resolve the

22 enforcement issue or is it both?
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1 MR. HARRIS: The enforcement issue.

2 MS. ARMSTRONG: The standards are

3 already set.

4 MR. COUSINS: I thought it was the

5 heating standards that came under challenge and

6 the cooling was still in effect. Did I

7 misunderstand?

8 MS. ARMSTRONG: The heating standards

9 were challenged. They have been remanded to the

10 Department to do its own rulemaking. The cooling

11 standards are on the books and compliance was

12 required with them beginning January 1 of this

13 coming year.

14 Really the ask is for DOE to establish--

15 for ASRAC to establish a working group to come up

16 with a regional standards' enforcement process for

17 those cooling based regional standards coming on

18 January 1.

19 MR. COUSINS: Okay, I got it.

20 Enforcement on the cooling side and not to

21 negotiate--

22 MS. ARMSTRONG: Right, it's all about
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1 establishing a process for regional standards'

2 enforcement.

3 MR. McCRUDDEN: I think there are only

4 two product categories subject to regional

5 standards, split system and a single package. My

6 comment was just to clarify. I think the

7 settlement document specifies this is just for

8 those two products and not for the 11 other

9 cooling products that were subject to that.

10 MS. ARMSTRONG: The clarification is for

11 only those product classes that have regional

12 standards.

13 Scott voted in favor. I'm going to

14 switch it around. Does anyone on ASRAC not agree

15 to establish the working group?

16 (No response.)

17 MS. ARMSTRONG: Okay.

18 MR. CYMBALSKY: This is John. I think

19 Scott Harris has already volunteered to sit on the

20 working group.

21 MR. HARRIS: I think to be more precise,

22 I was volunteered, but that's fine with me.
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1 MR. MANDYCK: John, I have interest,

2 too. Is there a provision to have two ASRAC

3 members?

4 DR. HUNGERFORD: This is David

5 Hungerford. I would be interested as well.

6 MR. CYMBALSKY: We have three.

7 MR. HARRIS: I just want to say when I

8 wanted to do enforcement work, when I first got to

9 DOE, there wasn't this great ground swell of

10 opinion who were so interested, so I'm thrilled

11 about this.

12 UNIDENTIFIED: Scott, you're the trend

13 setter.

14 MR. WILKINS: Robert Wilkins, Danfoss.

15 I would just urge ASRAC to be very deliberative

16 and careful in selecting this working group,

17 considering the issues that were voiced in the

18 lawsuit that has been settled. We need to be very

19 careful we don't step on any of those fingers or

20 toes that were engaged in that.

21 MR. COHEN: This is Dan Cohen, General

22 Counsel's Office. I guess we have to look at
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1 whether we can have multiple ASRAC members beyond

2 two; right?

3 MS. ARMSTRONG: Yes, I was thinking it

4 was just two. I know we have had two before.

5 MR. COHEN: Right. Then the question

6 becomes also whether someone can be there in their

7 representative capacity if their interest is also

8 on that issue, but they are not there for ASRAC

9 per se; right? So, if John Mandyck is there as a

10 carrier as opposed to ASRAC.

11 MS. ARMSTRONG: Why don't we do this,

12 why don't we go back and look into it. Once we

13 get the nominations, we can look at this as a

14 whole.

15 MR. COHEN: Right.

16 MR. deLASKI: This is Andrew. That has

17 to be permissible, in that each of these parties

18 who volunteered for the committee have a pretty

19 strong compelling interest in this or expertise.

20 It strikes me we should be able to resolve that.

21 MS. ARMSTRONG: Who was the third

22 person? It was Dave?
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1 MR. COHEN: David.

2 MS. ARMSTRONG: For those on the phone,

3 just keep your eyes open for a call for

4 nominations within the next coming days.

5 MR. McCRUDDEN: What is the maximum

6 number of working group members? Is it 25?

7 MS. ARMSTRONG: Yes.

8 MR. McCRUDDEN: This one is tricky in

9 that you have three regions, and I will argue that

10 from a contractor perspective, it might be good to

11 have a representative from each region, just

12 because you have different enforcement schemes for

13 each region, or at least for two regions, if

14 you're looking at base versus regionals. That's

15 my little plug. Thanks.

16 MS. ARMSTRONG: Thank you.

17 MR. MANDYCK: The issue of number of

18 ASRAC members on a working group, those are our

19 own working rules; correct?

20 MR. COHEN: Well, yes, but there is a

21 requirement in the regulations that implement the

22 FACA, about having subcommittees of full
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1 committees. I just don't know that requirement

2 off the top of my head. I have to go back and

3 look at it.

4 I think the fact that someone may be an

5 ASRAC member but they are in a representative

6 capacity for their particular interest on a

7 particular working group, we should be able to

8 deal with that problem I would think.

9 MR. CYMBALSKY: So, there are no

10 abstentions.

11 MS. ARMSTRONG: No opposes, and three

12 interests from ASRAC, and you have homework.

13 MR. COHEN: Right, I have homework.

14 MR. CYMBALSKY: Okay. I like

15 volunteerism. That's really good. Thanks, guys.

16 All right.

17 MR. CYMBALSKY: The next agenda item,

18 this is a letter sent from AHRI for consideration

19 of automatic commercial ice makers. I know John

20 Mandyck's name was there. John, do you want me to

21 just pass it to Karim or do you want to say a few

22 words first?
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1 MR. MANDYCK: I guess I'll just open it

2 up and pass it to Karim. We received a letter

3 from AHRI asking us to consider impaneling a

4 working group for commercial ice makers.

5 In March of this year DOE published

6 Notice of Proposed Rulemaking for energy

7 efficiency standards for this area. I know there

8 is some complexity with the standard in the sense

9 that at the same time the energy efficiency

10 standard could come into effect, there are issues

11 about transition to different refrigerants, which

12 is causing concern in that particular industry.

13 They are requesting the formation of a

14 working group to negotiate outcome here. I guess

15 with that, since I'm not familiar with this

16 product group, I'll turn it over to Karim with

17 AHRI for any other additional background.

18 MR. AMRANE: Thank you, John. I would

19 like to thank the Committee for putting this issue

20 on the agenda.

21 As John mentioned, we sent this letter

22 to request a working group be established under
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1 ASRAC to negotiate the final rule. The reason why

2 we are asking for this is because what we have

3 seen so far, the analysis we have seen so far is

4 of great concern to us, great concern with the

5 efficiency levels being proposed, with the

6 significant impact on industry, and as John

7 mentioned, the issue of refrigerant, which is very

8 important for the industry.

9 All the analysis that has been done so

10 far was done on a refrigerant that might not be

11 here three or four years down the road.

12 I understand there is nothing on the

13 books, there is no rule out there from EPA banning

14 the refrigerant, but it is clear from EPA they are

15 going to do something about that refrigerant in

16 particular.

17 We are asking at least for DOE to

18 consider certain things in the analysis, at least

19 look at the refrigerants and what can be done

20 there, maybe do some sensitivity analysis, and I'm

21 not sure what DOE will do about this.

22 The bottom line also is we have lost
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1 confidence in the process itself. What has

2 happened in the last few years is that we see a

3 framework document. We file comments, then we

4 don't hear anything from DOE for two years, then a

5 proposed rule is issued, and we see the analysis,

6 600 pages, and we have to respond in 30 days

7 sometimes. Then we hear nothing until the

8 proposed rule is published, and then the same

9 thing with the final rule.

10 We would like really to avoid the

11 situation, which is very similar to what happened

12 with the commercial refrigeration rulemaking, and

13 we would like to at least ask for ASRAC to

14 consider forming this working group because we

15 believe that through negotiation probably we will

16 reach consensus that will be beneficial to

17 everybody.

18 That's our plea. I think it can be

19 done. I think we have time to do it. We urge the

20 Committee to seriously consider this request.

21 Thank you.

22 MR. deLASKI: This is Andrew. I guess
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1 I'll react first. I would be opposed to forming a

2 working group for these products at this time. I

3 think it is highly unusual to look for a Reg Neg

4 so late in the process.

5 The other Reg Neg's that we have

6 approved have been for rulemaking's that are just

7 getting off the ground, or in the case of pumps or

8 in the case of transformers, which came before

9 ASRAC was formed.

10 It is really for developing standards

11 from the ground up as opposed to getting to this

12 point, which is really the 11th hour in this

13 rulemaking and having one set of stakeholders, a

14 critical one, of course, the manufacturers, who

15 are of course deeply affected, not be happy with

16 the way things are going and therefore appeal to

17 ASRAC to intervene.

18 That to me sounds like a very unusual

19 request. It sounds to me--this request is coming

20 exclusively from one set of stakeholders, from the

21 manufacturers' trade group. It sounds to me like

22 there are issues, and I know there are issues
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1 because I'm personally involved in the rulemaking

2 as well, that AHRI and its members have raised

3 with the Department in the rulemaking, and those

4 issues need to be addressed by the Department

5 through the normal Notice and Comment rulemaking

6 process.

7 Having been at the public hearing a

8 couple of months ago, I know there was receptivity

9 to addressing many of the issues that were being

10 raised at that time.

11 I would encourage--Karim, I would

12 strongly encourage you all to continue to engage

13 with the Department.

14 I know you're frustrated and you feel

15 like you haven't been listened to, but my sense is

16 that having been there, there was some listening

17 going on, and that I would encourage you to

18 continue to engage directly with the Department

19 rather than try to push this to some committee

20 where at this point I don't see broad-based

21 support for formation of a committee from any

22 interest outside of the manufacturers.
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1 I'm concerned also for the precedent. I

2 don't think it would be in our position as ASRAC

3 where whenever DOE has a proposed rule and there

4 is some party that doesn't like the proposed rule,

5 that party come to ASRAC and say hold on, folks,

6 you're my committee of appeal, please intervene

7 here and create a committee to override what the

8 Department has proposed.

9 I think this belongs in the normal

10 Notice and Comment rulemaking process. The

11 Department's obligation is to listen to you guys

12 and other stakeholders. I would encourage a

13 process that enables that rather than pushing it

14 off--I'm not sure who the stakeholders are, who

15 you want to engage. I don't see them engaged at

16 this point, beyond those that you represent.

17 MR. CYMBALSKY: This is John at DOE. A

18 new piece of information here. The Department

19 plans on holding a public meeting to discuss the

20 engineering modeling for this product. We hope to

21 have that meeting on June 19. We are going to

22 work to publicly announce that as soon as
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1 possible.

2 I think as Andrew pointed out, our goal

3 here is to make this as transparent as possible.

4 I, too, was at the public meeting where there was

5 concern raised about some of the engineering and

6 the assumptions and what not.

7 So, what we are planning on doing here

8 as part of the normal Notice and Comment

9 rulemaking process is to hold another public

10 meeting to allow the stakeholders to engage in the

11 modeling methodology.

12 I think through that process, we hope

13 that the concerns that were voiced can be

14 somewhat--at least there will be some back and

15 forth at the public meeting as to what the

16 engineering model does, what results it produces

17 and what not.

18 From my perspective, I believe that's

19 the correct next path on this rulemaking.

20 MR. MANDYCK: This is John Mandyck.

21 More often than not, DOE standards have been

22 decided by courts. We just went through it with
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1 the residential heating and cooling standard,

2 which means something is not working because just

3 too many times, the courts are deciding what the

4 standards are and not the agency or the consensus

5 process.

6 My view is if you have anybody that is

7 interested in coming to the table and offering a

8 consensus process to set standards, why would we

9 turn that away? We have proven that this can be a

10 better process.

11 I agree, Andrew, the timing is not

12 ideal, and I agree it shouldn't be with every

13 standard. If you have a major party coming through

14 and saying we want to proactively walk through

15 these issues with all the stakeholders, I think we

16 are setting also a wrong precedent by turning that

17 away.

18 MR. CYMBALSKY: I will point out that

19 the example you brought up was actually a

20 consensus agreement that we got sued over and got

21 remanded.

22 MR. MANDYCK: It wasn't a negotiation, a
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1 negotiated rulemaking.

2 MR. deLASKI: John, I'm just curious.

3 You said more often than not the standards have

4 been set by the courts. I just did the math last

5 week. There have been 50 standards set by DOE in

6 20 years, and there have been four out of 50 that

7 have been subject to lawsuits. The fourth was

8 just filed recently. I think you're saying more

9 than not in the courts is not accurate.

10 MR. MANDYCK: I'm coming from my sphere

11 of understanding, which I'll agreed to, which is

12 in the air conditioning and heating world. I

13 think there were more than four.

14 MR. deLASKI: When they are about

15 standard levels, there have been four.

16 MR. MANDYCK: Considering that we have

17 only had in some cases one or just two rounds of

18 the standards in the first place, that's

19 significant.

20 MR. deLASKI: Out of 50 standards. I'll

21 tell you what, the folks at EPA would drool over a

22 record of only having four of their standards go
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1 to court.

2 I wish we had a consensus on this, and

3 in fact, there wasn't a private attempt to reach

4 consensus in 2012. The private negotiations did

5 not reach consensus.

6 Here we are at the end of the day, it is

7 the desire by some parties to--they weren't happy

8 with what DOE proposed, so they are coming to us

9 as a Board of Appeals. They have not garnered

10 support from more than their own industry for a

11 Reg Neg.

12 Every Reg Neg that we have approved has

13 come to this Committee with support from more than

14 just the industry asking for the Reg Neg.

15 I would put the burden back on the

16 industry to say where is the support for this.

17 What I hear the industry saying is they want DOE

18 to listen to them better. What I just heard DOE

19 say is that they're going to do another RFI.

20 They're going to do another public hearing, and

21 they are willing to try to listen. They are going

22 to do their best to listen and create better
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1 transparency and understanding.

2 The role for a Reg Neg is to bring in

3 other stakeholders, so who are the stakeholders

4 they want to bring in?

5 I'm a little puzzled by this request,

6 coming at this stage of the process.

7 MS. ARMSTRONG: I just want to follow on

8 one thing, Andrew. One of the reasons, I think,

9 that DOE is going out with this public meeting

10 notice is in response to some of the concerns

11 filed by interested parties, including AHRI, and

12 it has to do with a lot of questions and concerns

13 around our energy model.

14 You know, even if this Committee were to

15 agree, which it doesn't seem like we will, that

16 negotiations are the right thing, DOE would still

17 have to have an analysis that supports a different

18 answer, and to get that different analysis, we

19 need to revise our data.

20 So, what DOE is doing with this public

21 meeting is asking for additional feedback,

22 additional help, with getting that analysis right.
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1 It may get you to a different answer. I don't

2 know. I think that is where the focus should be,

3 getting the analysis right. The statute sets out

4 the criteria we have to follow to get to an

5 answer.

6 Even if you were to negotiate a

7 different outcome, we would have to have analysis

8 that would support it, so we need the feedback,

9 and this public meeting is another attempt to help

10 us with the transparency, to have that dialogue.

11 We encourage the manufacturers to come,

12 to learn about the energy model, to help us revise

13 that as appropriate, and we encourage them to

14 share data wherever possible. There are a lot of

15 avenues to do that.

16 MR. WILKINS: Robert Wilkins, Danfoss.

17 We don't make ice makers but we make valves and

18 controls and compressors and a number of

19 components that go into those. We have a stake in

20 this and we are vitally concerned about it.

21 We strongly in our company support

22 energy efficiency. In fact, our business is about
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1 energy efficiency. Manufacturers come to us when

2 they want to raise the efficiency of their

3 product. The higher the efficiency, the better it

4 is for our business. We like it.

5 We have to get this right, and we have

6 to get to the root of all of these debates that

7 are going on. I would comment that one thing that

8 is uniquely different about this and might

9 contribute to a lot of this issue and might be

10 worthy of consideration--this is a tiny industry

11 sector.

12 The annual volume of the product they

13 produce is about one percent to two percent of

14 unitary air conditioning in the appliance

15 industry. They don't have the experience and they

16 don't have the sophistication in this process.

17 If our interest is about making valid

18 increases in energy efficiency, we have to get

19 this right. We can't take advantage of the fact

20 that they are naand inexperienced in this process.

21 We need to bring them along.

22 I have attended the last three of these
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1 public meetings. I wrote down seven comments on

2 this particular one.

3 Lack of transparency. You have already

4 talked about that. We need much better vetting on

5 the assumptions that go into these things. Many

6 of the assumptions were refuted. After almost a

7 full year of process, and then the public meeting,

8 and then they are refuted. We need more openness

9 so we can get the right assumptions in at the

10 right time.

11 I think that is one reason we think this

12 negotiated process makes sense. There may be

13 better ways of doing it, alternative ways of doing

14 it, but we have to get the assumptions right, and

15 DOE should be an impartial arbiter in helping get

16 the right true and correct assumptions, and not

17 putting a finger on the scale to tip it one way or

18 the other.

19 Thirdly, we need to include EPA in this

20 discussion for obvious reasons. We have already

21 talked about the refrigerants.

22 Fourthly, lack of inclusion of the end
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1 users in the process. The manufacturers would be

2 affected by this but the end users are the ones

3 that are going to be so strongly affected by it,

4 the restaurants, the kitchens, the fast food

5 restaurants.

6 I don't recall any of those people

7 sitting around this table when we discuss this.

8 They are the ones that are going to be impacted

9 when they try to replace a 22 inch ice maker with

10 a 30 inch ice maker that won't fit in their

11 kitchen and they have to spend thousands of

12 dollars to do that. That is a major impact that is

13 not considered and they didn't even have a voice.

14 Fifthly, it's unclear if DOE's

15 simulation model is valid or not, and I applaud

16 having this hearing, but I would also argue that

17 most simulation models that I've seen worked

18 within a certain window, a framework, an envelope,

19 and when you try to extrapolate far out of that to

20 dramatically increase performance in one dimension

21 or the other, it's likely to diverge from that.

22 That model may be perfect, don't know
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1 that it is, no one has looked at it, it may be

2 perfect within the normal envelope, but it needs

3 to be verified when you get to these assumptions

4 that we are going to have a dramatic increase of

5 efficiency.

6 No ice maker was built up and tested in

7 a lab. When you extrapolate that far out, we have

8 got to get some physical evidence that this thing

9 worked. No lab verification.

10 Re-use of invalid assumptions that were

11 already thrown out in earlier rulemaking. It's

12 unconscionable. It could be an honest error. I

13 will grant you that. When an assumption in a

14 rulemaking, in rulemaking number one, is refuted

15 in a public forum, around this table, and you

16 accept that and change it and replace it with a

17 realistic assumption, good for you.

18 When you go back in two dockets and re19 use that old assumption that was previously

20 invalidated, it is unconscionable or it is gross

21 oversight, just missed it, and it could be that,

22 I'll grant you that.
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1 That diminishes the confidence of this

2 small industry sector that is not experienced in

3 this process.

4 Andrew, I don't know whether to agree or

5 disagree with your position on the negotiated

6 rulemaking. I would argue this one needs more

7 attention, maybe it's more time. I don't know

8 what it is.

9 These seven points need to be addressed

10 and considered and fully vetted, and we have to

11 get the right stakeholders in the room. We have

12 to get the right facts on the table. We have to

13 get the right valuation model. We all know how to

14 do that. It is a question of how is the best way

15 to do that.

16 Again, we support the energy efficiency.

17 MR. deLASKI: Robert, thank you. I want

18 to just respond briefly which is you and I were

19 both at that public hearing and these were points

20 that were raised at the public hearing by you and

21 others.

22 I think it's a little unfair to suggest
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1 that end users haven't had an opportunity. This

2 rulemaking began in 2010. There have been four

3 public meetings or three public meetings and there

4 will be a fourth one, it sounds like.

5 If folks aren't showing up to a public

6 meeting, it is not because they weren't--they are

7 public meetings and anyone can come and write

8 written comments if they don't want to come in

9 person.

10 The notion that this has not been an

11 open public process for any end user or other

12 interest to show up, I think, is just not valid.

13 The process to me--I agree with your

14 point that your concerns, that Danfoss has raised,

15 that the manufacturers have raised, need to be

16 considered and addressed. That's what I believe

17 the Department needs to do and will be doing.

18 I am heartened to hear there is going to

19 be an unusual step in the process, which is that

20 another RFI will be issued, which is an extra

21 step, due to the level of concern that has been

22 raised, which is high, and that to me sounds like
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1 a good way to address this level of concern so

2 that the manufacturers who have these concerns,

3 and the suppliers in your case, have that

4 additional opportunity to understand the model, to

5 criticize it, raise their concerns with it, and

6 then for the Department to get to where Ashley

7 described, which is to have a better model and a

8 better understanding and better data.

9 It strikes me as being a process that

10 can work to address the concerns you have

11 outlined.

12 MR. WILKINS: Robert again. Thank you

13 for your comments. I agree with you. I just

14 think we have to get this right. It's going to

15 create a lot of pain for everybody, the agency

16 included, if we don't get it right.

17 Whether the negotiated rulemaking is the

18 right way to go, I don't know. I don't have that

19 much experience. Somehow, we have to come to

20 grips with this and get it right.

21 MR. CYMBALSKY: The Department agrees.

22 I think we have heard some positions here from
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1 both sides. I have read the public comments. I

2 was at the public meeting. I can tell you, like

3 Andrew said, we are going to address all those

4 comments.

5 I would ask that the folks who have

6 raised concerns--I beg at every public meeting for

7 the data and the information. I think people have

8 data and they don't provide it, and then at the

9 end of the day, complain. You can do that.

10 That's your right to do.

11 If you have data and you don't feel like

12 you want to participate by providing that data to

13 the rulemaking process, well, guess what's going

14 to happen. I think we all know the answer. I

15 don't want that answer. A Reg Neg is not going to

16 fix that problem.

17 We're talking about a different issue

18 here, and it's one that we can address in the

19 rulemaking process, it's one we are going to

20 address. Like we mentioned, this public meeting,

21 I think, will go a long way hopefully to address

22 at least five of those concerns you mentioned.
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1 The last one you mentioned, I honestly

2 don't know what you're referring to. Hopefully,

3 you made that in your public comment. I'd like to

4 know what that assumption was.

5 MR. WILKINS: That was the one about the

6 compressor efficiency, and it was Danfoss'

7 comments and was in our public comments this time

8 around.

9 MR. CYMBALSKY: You know, that's a

10 public comment that we will deal with, it will be

11 addressed. We don't ignore public comments.

12 MR. WILKINS: I appreciate

13 consideration. We're not one of those

14 manufacturers, and I defer to the others in the

15 room.

16 MR. COUSINS: In coming to grips on this

17 and getting good valid input, is it a good idea to

18 provide some more advance notice for a public

19 meeting instead of like a week in advance or a

20 week and a half in advance?

21 MR. WILKINS: I think--

22 MR. COUSINS: If we want to get
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1 stakeholders involved with it at this 11th hour,

2 do we give them a little more advanced notice that

3 we want to get them involved, at least to provide

4 input?

5 MR. WILKINS: Robert here again. I

6 think that would help. I also think there is

7 little recognition that this is a very small

8 inexperienced industry group that is relatively

9 new to the process, and may be nato some extent.

10 They may criticize me for saying that. Again,

11 their annual volume of the whole industry is only

12 one to two percent of unitary appliances. It's a

13 tiny little industry.

14 They may not have the sophistication of

15 wow, I have to move, DOE is moving, we are going

16 to have a public event, I have to go out and get

17 my end user customers and get them enlisted. We

18 should at least recognize that. Whether we can

19 take action because of that or not, I don't know.

20 MR. COUSINS: Well, I'm just thinking,

21 if they feel strongly enough about it that they

22 want to sit in the room and provide some input and
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1 some data, some additional data points, you know,

2 schedule a meeting one week in advance, they are

3 going to have to pay top dollar just to get into

4 the room.

5 If it's really that small an industry,

6 then you want to give them the benefit of being

7 more fiscally responsible maybe, and then to pull

8 that data together, given that they may not be

9 able to do it in a week's time.

10 MS. McCARTHY: This is Anne McCarthy and

11 I'm with NAFEM, which represents food equipment

12 manufacturers. I would just like to echo that.

13 We have a lot of really small manufacturers that

14 would have liked to have been here but it was time

15 and cost prohibitive.

16 MR. CYMBALSKY: I don't know if we have

17 said this already, but the statutory deadline is

18 January 1, 2015, which we plan on meeting.

19 I think for the planned meeting on the

20 19th, we are not really asking anyone to review

21 any documents. What we are asking is for people

22 to participate with their data and information
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1 from their testing that they should have on hand,

2 I hope.

3 MR. COUSINS: Have you told anyone that

4 you are going to have this meeting as yet? You

5 say it's the 19th. Does anyone know it's going to

6 happen yet?

7 MR. AMRANE: We knew, AHRI, and we have

8 been informed and we informed our members, so yes,

9 they are aware of this meeting.

10 MR. CYMBALSKY: We announced it here

11 today. Admittedly, it would be nice to say six

12 months in advance, this meeting was going to

13 happen.

14 MR. COUSINS: One month in advance would

15 be nice.

16 MS. ARMSTRONG: Typically, we do. This

17 one is in response to a lot of feedback. The

18 Department is, I think, in this case trying to be

19 responsive.

20 Like Andrew said, we don't typically

21 have these second meetings, but in this case, we

22 understood there were a lot of questions about the
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1 energy model.

2 Unlike commercial refrigeration, this is

3 one where it would take some doing to put it on

4 line, and instead, we thought it would be more

5 helpful, most beneficial for us to actually make

6 someone available with the model for the entire

7 day, to walk through exactly what we have done, to

8 show you all the screens, to show you our inputs,

9 to show you how it works, to show you what comes

10 out.

11 If you want us to run specific

12 scenario's, if you want us to run your equipment,

13 even if it's confidential, we have a way to do

14 that in front of everyone. You can talk to our

15 contractors. They can run it for you. You can

16 see what the model would output for your data.

17 We are trying to take the extra step

18 here to get it right, so Steve to your point, I

19 think in an ideal world, the Department would like

20 a lot more time, too, but we are trying to be

21 reactionary here to help the process.

22 UNIDENTIFIED: You're being reactive, not
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1 reactionary.

2 MS. ARMSTRONG: Sorry. Thank you.

3 MR. COUSINS: If AHRI is very happy with

4 the approach that is being taken, then I'm great

5 with that. I don't have a problem with that at

6 all.

7 MR. HARRIS: This is Scott. Can I break

8 in for just a second? I think we are a little off

9 track here for this Committee.

10 The question before us is whether to set

11 up a subcommittee and create a negotiated

12 rulemaking. We are now very deep into the

13 discussion of how good or bad a job the agency is

14 doing on this current rulemaking.

15 I think while it's interesting, I think

16 it's a little off topic. I hear a lot of

17 complaints about the substantive content of the

18 rulemaking. I hear folks at DOE saying, look,

19 we're going to try to get more comment and address

20 the concerns.

21 I think that's done, so the question is

22 whether or not we go forward to set up a
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1 subcommittee here, and I think we are pretty much

2 ready to call the question.

3 MS. ARMSTRONG: Do you want to do it?

4 MR. CYMBALSKY: Thanks, Scott.

5 MS. ARMSTRONG: Do you want to call the

6 vote?

7 MR. HARRIS: Yes, I'll be happy to call

8 the vote, and I vote against having ASRAC proceed

9 in this instance.

10 MR. CYMBALSKY: Charlie Hon has had his

11 hand up for a while. He's been very patient, so

12 I'm going to let him speak before we--

13 MR. HARRIS: I'm sorry. I couldn't see

14 who had their hands up, so I didn't mean to cut

15 anyone off.

16 MR. CYMBALSKY: He was grabbing the

17 microphone while you were--no, I'm just kidding.

18 Go ahead, Charlie.

19 MR. HON: The one problem I see going on

20 here is these things are accelerating at a very

21 fast pace. That doesn't necessarily help the

22 industry or the government either one.
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1 June the 19th, it has been scheduled for

2 over six months. It was actually scheduled a year

3 ago, for atmosphere meetings in San Francisco,

4 basically discussing alternate refrigerants for

5 this very market, but the Department of State has

6 a meeting on June the 19th at 10:30 in the morning

7 to discuss protocol issues on some of these same

8 topics which affect the industry, possible

9 discussion of phase out of some of the

10 refrigerants we are using this very day.

11 I have no stake in this particular

12 meeting, so I don't have to be at three places at

13 once. I just have to be at two. That's a

14 problem, but we are compounding things that

15 quickly, that we are not looking ahead and getting

16 everyone cleared up.

17 MR. deLASKI: This is Andrew again. It

18 sounds like from listening, John, DOE, has been

19 talking to Karim about scheduling this, and then

20 the representative from NAFEM is on the phone as

21 well. I presume there has been some consultation

22 on what days' work, you know.
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1 Here we are running back into the

2 details of how DOE manages this rulemaking. It

3 strikes me that DOE should schedule it at a time

4 that accomplishes its objectives. That is for

5 them to address in consultation with the trade

6 associations, which is what they typically do.

7 Now keeping in mind that there is a

8 statutory deadline they have to comply with. I

9 don't know that we should debate whether June 19

10 is the right date or not in this Committee.

11 MS. ARMSTRONG: Okay. We're going to go

12 back to Scott's vote. I guess the vote is they

13 asked us to form a working group to negotiate

14 standard levels for automatic commercial ice

15 makers. I'm going to ask all those who oppose to

16 speak now.

17 MR. deLASKI: I oppose. It's Andrew.

18 MS. ARMSTRONG: I oppose. It's Ashley.

19 DR. HUNGERFORD: I oppose. This is

20 David.

21 MR. COUSINS: Steve Cousins here. I

22 oppose, given that DOE is continuing to address
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1 the concerns of AHRI and there is a mechanism for

2 doing that. Based on that, I oppose.

3 MS. KLINE: This is Kelley. I would

4 echo that. I would oppose given the effort that

5 DOE is taking with AHRI and working with AHRI on

6 that.

7 MS. CLEARY: This is Jen, I would echo

8 Kelley and the previous comments as well in

9 opposing.

10 MR. WILKINS: We have this meeting on

11 the 19th or whatever day it does happen to be on,

12 and we go through all these issues and

13 considerations with the simulation model and

14 people get new insights and have new questions and

15 have new suggestions to make, will there be an

16 opportunity to make additional comments to the

17 process following that session?

18 MS. ARMSTRONG: We talked about that and

19 that is something that we are still talking

20 through. At some point, we will work it out. We

21 are trying to figure out what is the best way to

22 do that and when to do it.
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1 MR. WILKINS: Without starting it all

2 over.

3 MS. ARMSTRONG: Yes, it's a matter of do

4 we open the comment--I think the question for the

5 Department is do we open the comment period right

6 when we have that public meeting or do we wait for

7 us to digest what we get from the public meeting

8 and decide whether we need to put new analysis out

9 for comment, or something along those lines.

10 We are just trying to figure out the

11 best way to do it, and I think that public meeting

12 will help us learn a lot. We are really hopeful

13 that people will come to the table wanting to have

14 a discussion and wanting to share, and for those

15 who have confidential data that are worried about

16 it, we have ways for them to share that.

17 We will make our consultants available

18 to run models, if they would like them to run

19 models for them as well.

20 MR. CYMBALSKY: Right. I think it's a

21 two way learning. I know we talked about we want

22 to learn. We really hope you all get--the people
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1 who are concerned get to learn as well. I think

2 there is some good give and take in this process

3 that I think we will both get a lot out of.

4 MS. McCARTHY: Will the consultants be

5 available to run that day, so like if our members

6 bring the data, they can do it that day?

7 MS. ARMSTRONG: Yes, and if there is

8 data that is confidential or they are worried

9 about that, we can also run it in private and

10 provide them the results. If they just have

11 questions about the process or how the model

12 works, we will be there to answer them.

13 MS. McCARTHY: Okay.

14 MS. ARMSTRONG: This really is a full

15 day meeting. It can take as little time or as

16 much time it is scheduled from 9:00 to 4:00, as

17 long as the stakeholders would like to ask

18 questions, and the model will be on the screen.

19 How we ran the model, what assumptions we used,

20 how we calibrated the model, all that type of

21 stuff will be discussed, in hopes of refining the

22 analysis.
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1 MS. McCARTHY: Okay.

2 MR. CYMBALSKY: Right. I just want to

3 mention for legal sake that when we do this, the

4 outputs of these runs in the public meeting, those

5 files will then be put into the docket. They will

6 be public.

7 Not to be missed here, if the data and

8 the output the model is generating you don't want

9 to be public, there is a different way that could

10 be handled, through an NDA with the consultants.

11 There are two ways you can work it. I

12 just want to be clear. I don't want any

13 confidential data to get mixed into the public

14 domain.

15 MS. McCARTHY: What is that process?

16 MS. ARMSTRONG: We will talk off line.

17 I'll give you the contact information, not a

18 problem.

19 MR. CYMBALSKY: Okay. Back to the vote.

20 I've heard the noes.

21 MR. ROY: Aniruddh Roy with Goodman.

22 Would you be able to as a manufacturer discuss the
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1 confidential information even at that meeting,

2 assuming you signed the NDA with the consultants?

3 MR. CYMBALSKY: It would be public

4 information.

5 MR. COHEN: There will be a transcript

6 of the meeting. You wouldn't want to do that, I

7 wouldn't think.

8 MS. ARMSTRONG: In the room. You would

9 need to set up something.

10 MR. CYMBALSKY: There is a back room

11 where we can take breaks and you can meet with the

12 consultants and we don't have to be there.

13 My count is I've heard seven noes, so

14 that is Jen, Kelley, Ashley, Andrew, Scott, David

15 and Steve. Any other noes?

16 MR. ECKMAN: Tom Eckman, no.

17 MR. CYMBALSKY: Okay. I think we have

18 eight. The motion does not pass.

19 Okay. Believe it or not, it is exactly

20 2:45. That brings us to 2:45. I just can't

21 believe that. That never happens on the agenda.

22 MR. CYMBALSKY: This is a chance for
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1 open public discussion if anybody in the room has

2 any other issues they might want to raise.

3 MR. MANDYCK: John Mandyck. Can I kick

4 this off and ask where we might be with the off

5 mode test standard? It impacts one of the product

6 categories we talked about earlier that is

7 effective in January.

8 MS. ARMSTRONG: Thanks, John, for that.

9 Everyone in the whole room is looking at me as my

10 face is bright red. Let's see. It's coming. You

11 want to know what exactly?

12 MR. MANDYCK: Well, I guess first is

13 what the timing is since this is a compliance

14 dilemma that we are all in with a standard that

15 takes effect in six months that the industry

16 ironically wants to comply with but has no means

17 to comply with because the Department hasn't

18 published the rule.

19 MS. ARMSTRONG: I think the Department

20 intends to finalize the procedures in advance of

21 the compliance date. I am sensitive to the

22 industry's concerns that you raised.
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1 MR. CYMBALSKY: I can pile it on but I'm

2 not.

3 MS. ARMSTRONG: I'll pile it on you

4 right back.

5 MR. MANDYCK: There is no time frame on

6 that? You are just saying by January, probably

7 end of December?

8 MS. ARMSTRONG: Yes, in advance.

9 MR. MANDYCK: You do realize that

10 depending on how it is finalized, it could take

11 months, years of lab testing to comply.

12 MS. ARMSTRONG: I understand your

13 concerns.

14 MR. MANDYCK: We don't have to talk

15 about it here but down the road, whether ASRAC

16 wants an agenda item to talk about the process

17 rule.

18 This is a case where a standard was

19 published without a test procedure, which is in

20 reverse, and then puts us all into this dilemma

21 that we are in right now from a compliance

22 standpoint with a looming effective date.
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1 I'm not suggesting we have to talk about

2 it now but it could be a discussion item for one

3 of our future meetings.

4 MR. ECKMAN: This is Tom Eckman. I

5 would agree with that. I think generally

6 speaking, the pace at which standards are being

7 refreshed and simultaneous updating of the test

8 procedures that feed those standards, I think

9 having an ASRAC discussion of the synchronization

10 of that process and how that might be done so that

11 the data that goes into the test procedures isn't

12 delayed, so that is available in a timely way, you

13 know, what are the realistic use patterns, what

14 are the realistic applications, inside, upside

15 down, backwards, forward, how many cycles do

16 dishwashers do.

17 Having that data in advance of going to

18 closure on a test procedure rather than trying to

19 develop it during the process seems to me a

20 discussion that actually ASRAC ought to have about

21 how that might be better synchronized so that we

22 are not caught in these delay and/or
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1 implementation issues downstream as the standard,

2 as you say, gets finalized before the test

3 procedure.

4 I think to the extent that we can set

5 aside some time on a future agenda to talk about

6 those issues and what strategically might be done

7 by DOE to better synchronize that, I think, would

8 be an advantage to the process.

9 MS. KLINE: This is Kelley. I would

10 echo that as well. I think for future discussion,

11 that would be a great one to focus on. I think

12 the synchronization issue is big.

13 I would also maybe add a piece that

14 might factor in here about the early use of DOE

15 test procedures that have a future compliance

16 date, and if that is appropriate, I think that

17 would be another piece we could have discussion

18 around.

19 MR. ECKMAN: I agree with that one, too.

20 I think that is an issue that is going to come up

21 in the pump negotiations.

22 MR. CYMBALSKY: Okay. So, it sounds
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1 like at least in this instance, we have a process

2 rule and clearly the process may not have been

3 followed this time.

4 MS. ARMSTRONG: I don't think it has a

5 whole lot to do with the process rule.

6 MR. CYMBALSKY: Yeah, I don't think that

7 makes the process rule necessarily bad. It means,

8 you know, party foul, or whatever you want to call

9 it. Okay, point taken from the group. At a

10 future meeting, we can bring it up again.

11 Anything else?

12 MR. AMRANE: Yes, if I may. This is

13 Karim from AHRI. I would like to bring up the

14 issue of certification requirements for commercial

15 products. As you all know, last summer we

16 negotiated those certification requirements, and

17 we negotiated, I think, the dates that were linked

18 to the publication of the AEDM final rule.

19 By the end of this month, manufacturers

20 will be required to submit certification reports

21 for, I think, equipment, commercial furnaces. We

22 are in June, less than 30 days away from the
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1 effective date, and we haven't seen from DOE the

2 templates that need to be used to submit this

3 information.

4 We are concerned about that. We are

5 concerned that we won't be able to meet the

6 deadline, the June 30 deadline. Can you give us

7 an update on where DOE is with the templates?

8 MS. ARMSTRONG: Sure. The templates are

9 just Excel versions of the certification

10 requirements, which are already established in our

11 regs and have been for some time now.

12 As you know, AHRI doesn't use the

13 certification templates. You actually use a back

14 door process. Irrespective of when those

15 templates are published, you should be in a

16 position to certify, but we are committed to

17 making those certification templates available

18 very shortly. I was working on them last night

19 and continue to.

20 We did commit to setting up a meeting

21 with you guys specifically next week. We are

22 flying in our programmers to meet with you so we
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1 can work out a system and make sure everything

2 goes smoothly on July 1. That is where your

3 programmers can talk to ours about dropping in

4 large data through a back door, because you don't

5 use our templates.

6 So, I don't see how the templates for

7 AHRI specifically or the availability of them

8 keeps you from certifying.

9 MR. AMRANE: So, my question to you is

10 we don't have the templates.

11 MS. ARMSTRONG: I get that manufacturers

12 need the templates. We did make those commercial

13 templates available before we revised the regs.

14 They will be very similar in nature. There are a

15 couple of inputs that changed based on the

16 negotiations, and then there is the PDFs.

17 The PDFs aren't going to be submitted

18 for the templates themselves as we described in

19 the final rule. All you are going to do is

20 associate a basic model with a file name. That

21 whole process was described specifically in the

22 final rule. You know about that.
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1 There is no template for a PDF. That

2 was also described in the final rule.

3 Manufacturers are at will to create their PDFs now

4 and have been for a while. They can group all--

5 I'm just going to use commercial furnaces as an

6 example because that has a July 1 deadline--they

7 can group all their commercial furnaces in a

8 single PDF with instructions if they so choose or

9 they can group them individually and have

10 different PDFs per different basic models if

11 that's how they wish.

12 DOE did consult with industry, some

13 specific members, when it came up with that

14 strategy, prior to finalizing it in the final

15 rule. We do expect the templates--you should start

16 to see the templates next week.

17 I don't see this being a problem. You

18 know the information we are going to collect. The

19 AEDM rule is in place and has been in place. The

20 deadlines were adopted without modification.

21 All the working group rules were adopted

22 without modification by the Department in the
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1 final rules as expeditiously as possible.

2 I'm not sure what there is to discuss.

3 I think the Department has gone and has shown--

4 MR. AMRANE: I mean we submitted--we

5 filed hundreds of thousands of data points with

6 the Department of Energy.

7 MS. ARMSTRONG: Right.

8 MR. AMRANE: For us, it's a big day

9 because we need to reprogram the way we submit the

10 information to DOE, so that's why we are asking

11 for all this. If you think we can do it in two

12 days--

13 MS. ARMSTRONG: You can use our template

14 screens. You don't use them at all.

15 MR. AMRANE: Still, I think there are

16 some issues, that is why I am hoping that next

17 week we are going to have this discussion.

18 MS. ARMSTRONG: Right, and we committed

19 to that, and we did that a couple of weeks ago.

20 All you need to know is here are the 50 data

21 fields. The information you need to collect from

22 your manufacturers has already been finalized in
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1 our regs, and you need to know whether you are

2 associated with a number one or number 50 for

3 passing from your database to our SQL database.

4 That's it.

5 MR. AMRANE: All right. I'm looking

6 forward to those templates.

7 MS. ARMSTRONG: With that, any next open

8 items?

9 MR. BRUNDAGE: Don Brundage, Southern

10 Company. To follow up on some of what Robert

11 Wilkins of Danfoss said, it's important to get

12 good participation in this process from all the

13 stakeholders.

14 There has been a pattern from the

15 Department of shorter and shorter notification

16 times of meetings, which makes it very difficult,

17 particularly for groups not within the Washington

18 area to come.

19 At one time, it was fairly standard for

20 the Department to give 30 days' notice of a public

21 hearing. Lately, I don't have statistics, but

22 what I've seen is an e-mail that gets dumped 14
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1 days before the notice and shows up in the Federal

2 Register about nine days before the notice--it

3 seems to be the norm.

4 That's just not reasonable public

5 notice. It's not necessary to have all of the

6 supporting documents done. I know you are under a

7 lot of time pressure with putting it on the

8 calendar.

9 I know when ASRAC committees are going

10 to meet a year from now, when subcommittees are

11 going to meet.

12 You can put stuff on the calendar and

13 tell us when it is going to be even if you haven't

14 got all the background work done yet. I would

15 just urge you to go back to something closer to an

16 one month notice of meetings, even if you don't

17 have all the supporting documents ready yet.

18 Thank you.

19 MS. ARMSTRONG: Does anyone on the phone

20 have anything else to add or anybody else on the

21 webinar?

22 (No response.)
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1 MS. ARMSTRONG: Okay. I guess the last

2 thing, as John mentioned earlier, you will see a

3 call for nominations. I believe he mentioned that

4 might have been published today. That is for the

5 entire ASRAC. We are looking for new members and

6 asking for that. Just make sure you follow the

7 process and submit all the information that's

8 requested, if you want to nominate someone or

9 yourself.

10 I think the only other thing is for the

11 actual ASRAC members, we need to do two things.

12 One is you should look at your e-mail, you will

13 see some time in the next probably 30 days a call

14 for either an e-mail vote or a quick phone call to

15 discuss the nominations from the two committees.

16 It will likely be about 30 days from now.

17 I don't know if ASRAC would like to pick

18 a date to have a call, just so everyone can block

19 their calendars, or if you want Jeremiah to send

20 out a Google notice.

21 I do expect to have that nomination

22 package back in like the three weeks or so. The
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1 new Department is trying to give 30 days' notice

2 here at least.

3 MR. CYMBALSKY: This is John. I

4 recommend that Jeremiah do a Doodle Poll. It

5 seems to be the most efficient way to quickly sort

6 out calendars.

7 MS. ARMSTRONG: Okay. We will get

8 Jeremiah to send out a Doodle Poll, but we will be

9 looking for about 30 days from now roughly, just

10 you know what we will be targeting.

11 Steve, do you have a question? Steve

12 Rosenstock.

13 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Hello?

14 MS. ARMSTRONG: Hi.

15 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Hi. Thank you very

16 much. Yeah, just a quick question. You had

17 mentioned something about heating equipment

18 standards. It kind of dropped there. Is there

19 any sort of time table for that rulemaking?

20 MS. ARMSTRONG: I have no idea what

21 you're talking about. The remand?

22 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Yeah.
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106

1 MS. ARMSTRONG: The court gave us a

2 date; right? Two years, roughly?

3 MR. COHEN: No.

4 MS. ARMSTRONG: All right. My lawyer is

5 going to chime in.

6 MR. COHEN: Part of the court order

7 requires us to use best efforts to have a proposed

8 rule within one year of the date of the settlement

9 and a final rule a year thereafter.

10 MS. ARMSTRONG: So, we're going to be

11 using our best efforts to meet the court's wishes.

12 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Would that include

13 possible use of the ASRAC set up?

14 MS. ARMSTRONG: I don't know.

15 MR. McCRUDDEN: There's nothing in the

16 settlement--this is Charlie with ACCA. There is

17 nothing in the settlement about using ASRAC, but

18 there is within the court order sort of a safety

19 valve, to use more time if necessary.

20 MR. COHEN: Yes. Again, I was trying to

21 avoid going into the details. Just to be clear,

22 and Charlie was fair, the settlement negotiations
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107

1 that occur prior to any filing before a court,

2 actually those are confidential conversations. We

3 are not at liberty to actually discuss those.

4 We can only really tell you what is in

5 the settlement document itself. Yes, there is

6 within the settlement document potentially an off

7 ramp if the parties ask for additional time, we

8 can grant additional time, and that could move the

9 clock out for what we have committed to for best

10 efforts.

11 If you ever have insomnia and you want

12 to find a quick solution, you can read the

13 settlement agreement, which is on line.

14 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Thank you.

15 MS. ARMSTRONG: Sure. So, with that, we

16 will look for a Doodle Poll that's coming out from

17 Jeremiah shortly, and I just thank everyone for

18 coming, for those who came in person, and thank

19 everyone for participating on line. We appreciate

20 it.

21 MR. deLASKI: I want to echo that, and

22 chartering two working groups today is good
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108

1 progress. These are two important topics that

2 will be addressed. I look forward to reports back

3 from those groups once they are formed.

4 MR. WILKINS: Thank you for the

5 opportunity to participate today.

6 (Whereupon, at 3:04 p.m., the

7 meeting was concluded.)

8

9

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22
Capital Reporting Company 

Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Federal Advisory Committee 06-06-2014 

1 CERTIFICATE OF NOTARY PUBLIC 

2 I, CHRISTINE ALLEN, the officer before whom the 

3 foregoing hearing was taken, do hereby certify 

4 that the witness whose testimony appears in the 

5 foregoing deposition was duly sworn by me; that 

6 the testimony of said witness was recorded by me 

7 and thereafter reduced to typewriting under my 

8 direction; that said deposition is a true record 

,9 of the testimony given by said witness; that I am 

10 neither counsel for, related to, nor employed by 

11 any of the parties to the action in which this 

12 deposition was taken; and, further, that I am not 

13 a relative or employee of any counsel or attorney 

14 employed by the parties hereto, nor financially or 

15 otherwise interested in the outcome of this 

16 action. 

17 

18 

19 

20 

21 

22 

Notary Public in and for 

the District of Columbia 

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100:19
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Armstrong 2:3

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47:16,21
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98:19

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57:10

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70:18

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46:11 48:1

conversations

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cooling 41:20

42:3,15

53:6,10,17,20

54:9 66:1
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coordinate 25:12

Corporate 23:3

Corporation 22:20

correct 23:21

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corrections 24:3

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20:17

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12:16,17

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79:16,22 80:20

82:3,14 84:3

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coverage 16:5

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80:10

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95:15

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8:14 9:20

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45:13,18 47:13

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D

D.C 1:10

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notification

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refrigerants 59:11

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