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Department of Transportation vs. Ayala 02-22-2013:':?~~:f~QJ1~r!~.9~~l 

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DEPARTMENT OF TRANSPORTATION, OFFICE OF HEARil{(bj$ \;::.n I I p 1: )0 

DEPARTMENT OF TRANSPORTATION, 

Complainant, 

v. 

CLELIA AYALA, 

Respondent. 

------------------------------· . . 

Case No. 

FAA-2012-0910 [JORIGINAL 

Washington, D.C. 

Tuesday, February 22, 2013 

The following pages constitute the proceedings 

held in the above-captioned matter before the 

HONORABLE J. E. SULLIVAN, held at the Department of 

Transportation, Office of Hearings, 1200 New Jersey 

Ave S.E., Washington, DC 20590, before Erick McNair of 

Capital Reporting Company, beginning at approximately 

1:36 p.m. 

o-0PVED 

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MAr~ - 1 ~Et~u 

HEARiNG oOCK~l 

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Capital Reporting Company 

Department of Transportation vs. Ayala 02-22-2013 

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1 A P P E A R A N C E S 

2 

3 On behalf of the Complainant: 

4 WILL VINES, ESQUIRE 

5 Southern Region 

6 Office of the Regional Counsel 

7 1701 Columbia Avenue, Suite 530 

8 College Park, Georgia 30337 

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10 

• 11 On behalf of the Respondent: 

12 CLELIA AYALA, PRO SE 

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P R 0 C E E D I N G S 

THE COURT: We are on the record ln the 

3 matter of Clelia Ayala. This is Docket Number FAA4 2012-0910. Today is Tuesday, February 12, 2013. And 

5 the parties have convened for a Rule 16 Litigation 

6 Scheduling Conference. The FAA attorney, Mr. William 

7 P. Vines, is present appearing by telephone as are all 

8 the parties today. The Respondent, Ms. Clelia Ayala, 

9 is also present and acting pro se or on her own 

10 behalf. Present at the Office of Hearings is Cody L. 

11 Smith, an attorney advisor, who is sitting in as an 

12 observer only. 

13 Good afternoon everyone. 

14 MR. VINES: Good afternoon, Judge. 

15 MS. AYALA: Good afternoon. 

16 THE COURT: Yes. Let's start with a couple 

17 of questions that I have for you all. And then we can 

18 get into the litigation scheduling itself. And I will 

19 start with you, Mr. Vines, if I may, because you filed 

20 this original paperwork. I have a copy of the October 

21 26, 2012, Request for Hearing that Ms. Ayala filed 

22 originally with the FAA docket clerk. And it 

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indicates on the last line of that one-page document 

and I am going to quote "(please see the attached.)" 

3 And I didn't get any attachment to this letter. And I 

4 was wondering if you, Mr. Vines, have a more complete 

5 copy that you could send to me. 

6 MR. VINES: Bear with me, Judge, as I find 

7 that document. 

8 THE JUDGE: Okay. And if you could speak 

9 up, that would be great, because I can barely hear 

10 you. 

11 MR. VINES: How about now, Judge? 

12 THE COURT: Oh, perfect. Thank you. 

13 MR. VINES: Okay. If you will bear with me 

14 so I can locate that document. 

15 THE COURT: Okay. 

16 MR. VINES: I have what was attached to that 

17 I believe is a -- bear with me. Judge, I believe it 

18 is a copy of the Final Notice of Proposed Civil 

19 Penalty that was attached and I believe that was 

20 attached by the -- like you indicated Ms. Ayala; but I 

21 am not positive. But what it appears to me is a Final 

22 Notice of Proposed Civil Penalty that was later 

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converted into the Complaint. 

THE COURT: Would you be so kind as to file 

3 that with our office? 

4 MR. VINES: The attachment to Ms. Ayala's 

5 October 26, 2012, letter? 

6 THE COURT: Yes. 

7 MR. VINES: Okay. 

8 THE COURT: Can you file that by fax no 

9 later than tomorrow close of business day? 

10 MR. VINES: Yes, Judge. 

11 THE COURT: Okay. Thank you so much. And 

12 then let me stay with you, Mr. Vines. There lS a 

13 question I have about timing of the Complaint. It 

14 appears that the alleged event occurred on or about 

15 December 29, 2009. And the Complaint that I have 

16 received is dated October 

17 15, 2012. 

18 MR. VINES: Yes, Judge. 

19 THE COURT: It is almost three years later 

20 and as you know, there is usually a two-year period of 

21 time for filing of these complaints. Do you have a 

22 Notice of Proposed Civil Penalty that lS within that 

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general two- year period from the date of the event? 

MR. VINES: Yes, Judge. I have a copy of 

3 that; that was issued on March 8, 2011. 

4 THE COURT: Okay. Would you also file a 

5 copy of that, please? 

6 MR. VINES: Yes, Judge. 

7 THE COURT: Okay. And I will ask you to do 

8 that within the same time frame as the attachment; and 

9 if you could simply address it to my attention by fax 

10 that would be great. 

11 MR. VINES: Yes, Judge. 

12 THE COURT: Okay. Thank you. Now I am 

13 going to stay with you a little bit longer, Mr. Vines. 

14 I have before me a faxed draft Joint Section 

15 13.217/Rule 26F Report submitted by complainant FAA. 

16 And this appears to have been faxed to this office, 

17 let's see, February 6, 2013. Thank you very much. 

18 Can you tell me a little bit in terms of how much time 

19 you think that this case would need for hearing or for 

20 trial? And how many witnesses you are tentatively 

21 thinking about calling? 

22 MR. VINES: Judge, I think -- I have not --

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this case involves conduct on a small commercial 

aircraft and I have about 15 statements from the 

passengers on board who prepared a statement for I 

4 believe either the local police department or some 

5 other entity which I have obtained a copy of. I am 

6 not sure; I know some of the witnesses' testimony 

7 would be cumulative obviously but I would anticipate 

8 perhaps two to three, maybe four of those passengers I 

9 would call as well as the pilot and possibly co-pilot. 

10 So I would say approximately six witnesses. 

11 THE COURT: Okay. And it was a little 

12 unclear to me and it may be just my faulty memory 

13 where the Complaint -- it sounds like the Complaint 

14 originated from Tampa, Florida and then the end 

15 destination was supposed to be Key West, Florida; is 

16 that correct? 

17 MR. VINES: Yes, Judge. 

18 THE COURT: So wouldn't the most practical 

19 venue for the hearing be ln Florida as opposed to your 

20 office in Atlanta, Georgia? 

21 MR. VINES: Judge, the witnesses in the case 

22 I would have to look to see where the pilot and co-

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1 pilot reside. I know the witnesses, by witnesses I 

2 mean passengers if I recall are from all over the 

3 country. 

4 THE COURT: Uh-huh. 

5 MR. VINES: Because it was an aircraft and I 

6 can give you some more detail. I do have it looks 

7 like a passenger from Key West, Florida, from 

8 Minnesota, New York, Texas, Texas, New York, Indiana, 

9 New York, Indiana, Florida, Massachusetts, 

10 Massachusetts, Minnesota, Pennsylvania. So it looks 

11 like from the east coast Florida and it looks like the 

12 pilots are it looks like Pennsylvania and Florida. 

13 THE COURT: Okay. 

14 MR. VINES: So I think either way we are 

15 going to have people coming in, flying in so I guess I 

16 would defer to you on that judgment. I am sure you 

17 have held many hearing in these types of cases where 

18 you have got witnesses for all over the country 

19 appearing. 

20 THE COURT: Uh-huh. From what you have told 

21 me so far you have three potential witnesses in 

22 Florida, two potential witnesses in Pennsylvania, two 

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potential witnesses in Massachusetts, Indiana and 

2 Texas and then potentially three in New York. So that 

3 is helpful to kind of get a sense of. So having said 

4 that how much time do you think you would need if, in 

5 fact, you called two to four passengers and/or a pilot 

6 or co-pilot as live witnesses for your presentation of 

7 the hearing. Obviously, Ms. Ayala will have some time, 

8 but I just want to know how much time you think it 

9 would take for you to present your prima facie case. 

10 MR. VINES: Judge, I believe it would 

11 probably take maybe half day to a full day at the 

12 most. This is a very short time period and the 

13 allegations as contained in the complaint are very 

14 straight forward. So I wouldn't anticipate by any 

15 means more than a day for the agency's case. 

16 THE COURT: Okay. 

17 MR. VINES: Judge, I would even be willing 

18 to say probably a half day. 

19 THE COURT: Okay. Well, we have a pro se 

20 respondent on the other side and so I always err on 

21 the side of time because often times their inquiry 

22 will be less taught than inquiry provided by counsel . 

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So let's err on the side of caution at least for now 

in the very beginning stages and say a day. 

Ms. Ayala, let's turn to you now. 

MS. AYALA: Yes, rna' am. 

THE COURT: And I am going to be asking you 

the same kinds of questions that I have asked of Mr. 

Vines. 

MS. AYALA: Uh-huh. 

THE COURT: So let me ask you first, have 

10 you thought about trying or you know basically 

11 representing yourself 1n this case; is that your 

12 intent at this point? 

13 MS. AYALA: Because I have no money, I have 

14 no lawyer. But all I know that I was abused that day. 

15 THE COURT: Okay. Well, it sounds like what 

16 you say that you have no money and no lawyer; are you 

17 planning to hire an attorney or are you planning to 

18 continue representing yourself? 

19 MS. AYALA: I think by myself because I am a 

20 person with disability. I am searching for job and I 

21 didn't find any job, so I am not making money. 

22 THE COURT: Okay. Well, that makes sense. 

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1 Thank you. Do you have any particular experience ln 

2 representing yourself at a hearing or a trial? Have 

3 you been to court before? 

4 MS. AYALA: Never. 

5 THE COURT: Okay. So this is your first 

6 time? 

7 MS. AYALA: Yes. 

8 THE COURT: Have you had any opportunity to 

9 ever watch television to see how television portrays 

10 trial proceedings? Sometimes people really like to 

11 watch TV shows that show a judge and attorneys and 

12 witnesses coming into the courtroom and trying cases. 

13 Do you ever watch shows like that? 

14 MS. AYALA: Yes, I saw one one time in 

15 Spanish, but when I --

16 THE COURT: Okay. 

17 MS. AYALA: -- was ln Miami. Now I live up 

18 north in Maryland. 

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22 

THE COURT: I am sorry where up north? 

MS. AYALA: I live in Maryland. 

THE COURT: Okay. Where about 1n Maryland? 

MS. AYALA: Wheaton is the place; Silver 

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1 Springs. 

2 THE COURT: I see. So you are very close to 

3 Washington, D.C.? 

4 MS. AYALA: Yes, I can go by Metro. 

5 THE COURT: Oh, can you? 

6 MS. AYALA: Yes. 

7 THE COURT: Okay. How close are you to 

8 Baltimore? 

9 MS. AYALA: I think it is the same for 

10 either one but I would rather to use Metro because 

11 Metro is better for me . 

12 THE COURT: Yes. So are you within walking 

13 distance of a Metro station? 

14 MS. AYALA: Yes, I live close by the Metro 

15 system. 

16 THE COURT: Okay. That is helpful. Thank 

17 you so much. 

18 MS. AYALA: Yes. 

19 THE COURT: Well, so you have seen a 

20 television show in Spanish where people were in a 

21 courtroom and trying a case, it _sounds like? 

22 MS. AYALA: I saw sometime because I was so 

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1 busy with my education; as a learning disabled, very 

2 difficult, but sometimes I saw people go in there like 

3 that, but I didn't pay too much attention. 

4 THE COURT: What kind of education do you 

5 have? 

6 MS. AYALA: I got -- I went to Miami. I got 

7 my Masters in International Business. 

8 THE COURT: Mm-hmm. And where did you get -

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10 MS. AYALA: I was totally dedicated for 24 

11 hours reading my books, going to the library, so I was 

12 very busy. And in Miami, I didn't find job. I was 

13 going to go up to the north and I am still searching 

14 for a job. 

15 THE COURT: Okay. Did you get your Masters 

16 degree in Miami? 

17 MS. AYALA: Yes, ma'am. 

18 THE COURT: Excellent. 

19 MS. AYALA: Florida International 

20 University. And I borrowed money now and still I have 

21 to pay that back, but I am not getting money and no 

22 job yet . 

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1 THE COURT: Okay. Well, that's helpful to 

2 know. So right now, you are in Silver Springs and I 

3 probably need to get your new address, then. And I am 

4 just going to double check and see if I have a Silver 

5 Springs address. No. I have a Wheaton, Maryland 

6 address; is that the right one for you? 

7 MS. AYALA: Yes, that is the same, yes. 

8 THE COURT: Okay. I am going to just repeat 

9 it so that I make sure that I have the correct one. 

10 It lS 1 

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12 MS. AYALA: It lS 11175 Georgia Avenue, 603, 

13 Wheaton, Maryland 20902. 

14 THE COURT: Okay. I also have here a Coral 

15 Gables, Florida address. Can I remove that now from 

16 your file? 

17 MS. AYALA: Yes, I used to live there when I 

18 was a student at Florida International University. I 

19 used to but I am not anymore. 

20 THE COURT: Okay. Thank you. We will 

21 update our file so that we are sending everything to 

22 your Wheaton, Maryland address . 

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MS. AYALA: Thank you. 

THE COURT: So let's talk a little bit about 

3 your side of the case. In essence, you are present 

4 today because you are saying to me, as I understand 

5 it, that you disagree with the FAA's perception of 

6 your behavior on the flight that you took -- or tried 

7 to take on December 29, 2009? 

8 MS. AYALA: Yes. 

9 THE COURT: And you want to have a hearing 

10 about that disagreement; is that accurate? 

11 MS. AYALA: Yes . 

12 THE COURT: Okay. How much how many 

13 witnesses do you think you would like to call on your 

14 behalf regarding this disagreement? Who do you have 

15 that you would like to call as a witness to support 

16 your side of the story? 

17 MS. AYALA: None, because I was by myself 

18 with my dog, but my dog already passed away so I was 

19 driven away from the airplane, I went to the hospital, 

20 I was crying. My only hope was maybe there is a 

21 camera onboard. I was waiting, that camera was going 

22 to be shown. Whatever happened, we can see in that . 

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1 That was my hope, but now the lawyer said that there 

2 is no camera onboard. So I have no witness. I was 

3 hoping we can use that camera and see what happened 

4 that day at that specific moment. 

5 THE COURT: Okay. And I couldn't 

6 MS. AYALA: -- the situation. 

7 THE COURT: I couldn't quite understand you 

8 when you said you were hoping to use the -- what was 

9 it? 

10 MS. AYALA: The camera onboard. 

11 THE COURT: The comment 

12 MS. AYALA: Yes. 

13 THE COURT: Can you spell that for me 

14 because I still don't understand? 

15 MS. AYALA: Camera when they see more like 

16 when the passengers comes up and everything is filmed. 

17 THE COURT: So you are thinking that 

18 somebody filmed you? 

19 MS. AYALA: No. I was hoping that that 

20 airplane has a camera, but the lawyer said there is no 

21 camera. 

22 THE COURT: Oh, I see like a camera to --

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MS. AYALA: Camera onboard. 

THE COURT: Okay. Mr. Vines, do you know if 

3 there was a camera on board? 

4 MR. VINES: Judge, in my experience with 

5 commercial airliners, there are no cameras in the 

6 cabin. I don't have any evidence in my case file that 

7 this particular commercial aircraft had any type of 

8 video surveillance in the cabin. 

9 THE COURT: Okay. That has been my 

10 experience too. But I just wanted to check. 

11 Okay. So Ms. Ayala, there was no camera 

12 that we know of that would have --

13 MS. AYALA: I didn't know that. I was 

14 expecting maybe I can use that, but now I have not 

15 that so I have nothing. I don't -- I have --

16 THE COURT: So it would just be you 

17 testifying, it sounds like? 

18 MS. AYALA: Yes. 

19 THE COURT: Okay. So I will just put one 

20 witness and that would be you? 

21 

22 

MS. AYALA: Yes. 

THE COURT: Okay. Ms. Ayala, have you had a 

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chance to see and read these different statements from 

the passengers that were surrounding you that Mr. 

3 Vines has referred to that he says he has? Have you 

4 seen those, by any chance? 

5 MS. AYALA: No. 

6 THE COURT: Okay. All right. And in terms 

7 of your own testimony, Ms. Ayala, how much time do you 

8 think it would take for you to describe in your own 

9 words what you think would happen once we get together 

10 for a hearing? 

11 MS. AYALA: Maybe from five to ten minutes. 

12 THE COURT: Okay. So let's just say, just 

13 to be on the safe side, an hour. 

14 MS. AYALA: Okay. 

15 THE COURT: Because you may find that you 

16 have a little bit more to say once you get up on the 

17 stand and I swear you ln. So we will err on the side 

18 of caution for you as well. 

19 MS. AYALA: Okay. 

20 THE COURT: All right. Let's talk then 

21 about discovery. Mr. Vines, it may be helpful to 

22 exchange some discovery in this case so that Ms. Ayala 

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1 is aware of what you know. And if she has some 

2 material that she has that you don't have to have her 

3 give that to you as well. You had provided to me a 

4 fairly short, shortened expedited type of hearing 

5 litigation schedule. And have you had a chance to 

6 provide Ms. Ayala any discovery other than simply 

7 filing the Complaint at this point? 

8 MR. VINES: Judge, I have not sent her any 

9 documentation from our case file. 

10 THE COURT: Okay. Well, what might work I 

11 think is for us to talk a little bit about what time 

12 frame we are looking at at least on my schedule. And 

13 then maybe we can backtrack with some things. It 

14 seems to me like it might be very helpful to have some 

15 due dates for the exchange of written discovery. 

16 Ms. Ayala, what that means, if you are not 

17 familiar with the term discovery is that you have the 

18 opportunity, as does Mr. Vines, to share information 

19 with each other prior to coming before me and 

20 presenting your case. And oftentimes when people 

21 share information and they start talking about what 

22 happened, they become much closer to agreeing with 

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each other as opposed to disagreeing with each other. 

MS. AYALA: Okay. 

THE COURT: That doesn't always happen, but 

4 a lot of times it does. The process of exchanging 

5 information in the legal field is called "discovery." 

6 MS. AYALA: Okay. 

7 THE COURT: And the reason we like to call 

8 it discovery is because we are discovering information 

9 about the other side of things. We are discovering 

10 more about why they believe something is true or not 

11 true . It is an opportunity for you to learn more 

12 about the FAA's case just as it is an opportunity for 

13 the FAA to learn more about your case. 

14 MS. AYALA: Okay. 

15 THE COURT: So it's a period of time before 

16 you come before me in which you discover more about 

17 each other's cases. Does that make sense to you? 

18 MS. AYALA: Okay. No, all I understood from 

19 the lawyers is all they want me to pay, pay, pay, pay, 

20 pay -- to pay money because they are threatening me. 

21 They are saying that they have all the kind of 

22 witnesses . I guess they have with any kind of 

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contribution that they gave to them; all the -- all 

2 the passengers as my witness except me. But I don't 

3 know, I guess they did somehow they bought that --

4 those witnesses and I don't think all of them they saw 

5 what had happened when I was sitting. 

6 THE COURT: Okay. 

7 MS. AYALA: The people who sit in the back 

8 of the plane when I was sitting; I don't know how they 

9 are witnessing things that they didn't see. 

10 THE COURT: Well, that certainly would be 

11 something to discover from Mr. Vine. I think we can 

12 set something like that up. We can set up some 

13 discovery time so that you can learn more about what 

14 some of these other passengers were saying. 

15 MS. AYALA: Yes. I didn't see what they 

16 said. I don't know them. I wasn't spend time with 

17 them because I think I was up and then at the same 

18 time I was down. So I don't know who they are. I 

19 don't know how they are the witnesses. I have no 

20 idea. 

21 THE COURT: Okay. Well, it is also a time 

22 for you to provide Mr. Vine with information about 

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your financial circumstances as well. 

MR. AYALA: I did, but he don't care. He 

3 wants his money. 

4 THE COURT: Okay. I see. 

5 MR. VINE: And Judge, if I can interrupt, we 

6 -- as part of our procedure, we issue a Notice of 

7 Proposed Civil Penalty. We allow the Respondent or in 

8 this case the Appellant or Respondent to sit down for 

9 informal conference and discuss the evidence that we 

10 have and of course to hear the Respondent's side of 

11 the story. If there is any information that may lead 

12 us to withdraw the Notice of Proposed Civil Penalty. 

13 In this particular case, as my argument will be at the 

14 hearing is that we had sufficient evidence to show 

15 that Ms. Ayala was on her cell phone and refused to 

16 turn off the cell phone at the request of the pilot as 

17 well as requested -- the pilot requested that Ms. 

18 Ayala confirm that her seatbelt was fastened before 

19 the door was shut and the plane took off and she would 

20 not cooperate. And she denied it. So that is where 

21 we go with the hearing. But I did offer Ms. Ayala a 

22 settlement; we did come to agreement on a number. I 

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1 sent her the information to sign. She did not follow 

2 through with it. So at that point, I interpreted her 

3 desire to not to return the information as a 

4 withdrawal of the agreement. And that is where the 

5 agency issued the final notice which has brought us 

6 here today for the agency filing the -- excuse me, the 

7 Respondent filing an appeal. And of course, us filing 

8 the Complaint. 

9 THE COURT: Okay. Thank you very much for 

10 that explanation. It seems to me, at least for now, 

11 what I would like to do is set a time for the exchange 

12 of discovery. And of course you, Mr. Vines, and you, 

13 Ms. Ayala, may reopen settlement negotiations if you 

14 so chose during this discovery time. If you don't 

15 want to do that, that is certainly your prerogative as 

16 well, but most people who engage in litigation do. 

17 They try and explore all their options. 

18 So why don't we do this. Let's set 

19 discovery exchange and then reset this litigation 

20 scheduling conference for at the conclusion of that 

21 discovery exchange so that I can check in with both 

22 parties, make sure that everybody has received what 

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they need and then we can if we need to go forward 

2 with setting some litigation dates. And those dates 

3 could include, although they don't have to, any type 

4 of pre hearing motions including dispositive motions. 

5 And if we get to the point where we are setting 

6 litigation deadlines past discovery then I can explain 

7 more about what those are. 

8 So Mr. Vines, let me ask you this first. Do 

9 you have any objection if a case is set for hearing to 

10 set it in Washington, D.C.; would you be willing to 

11 come up for the hearing? 

12 MR. VINES: Judge, I can; I personally don't 

13 have a problem with it. My concern is just the agency 

14 witnesses getting the witnesses to that area. So I 

15 have no, from my personal standpoint, have any 

16 objection to me traveling. 

17 THE COURT: Okay. Let's put that in the 

18 back of our hat since Ms. Ayala is now residing in the 

19 Washington, D.C. area. We don't need to make a final 

20 decision about it today. Let's talk about the 

21 exchange of discovery. How much time would you need, 

22 Mr. Vines, to prepare a discovery packet for Ms. Ayala 

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which includes the 15 statements from passengers that 

support your version of what happened so that she has 

a chance to review that and see what potentially she 

would need to confront at a hearing? 

MR. VINES: Judge, I have the upcoming 

6 weekend, we have got the holiday weekend --

7 THE COURT: Yes. And sir, it doesn't have 

8 to be expedited. Think of a very comfortable 

9 timeframe for yourself. 

10 MR. VINES: To have the copy of the file, 

11 releasable portions of the file to Ms. Ayala I can 

12 probably do so by March 6, have it in the by mail 

13 March 6th. 

14 THE COURT: And is there anything you would 

15 like to have from Ms. Ayala? 

16 MR. VINES: Yes, Judge. I would like the 

17 opportunity to be able to prepare questions regarding 

18 her -- she claimed throughout this process her 

19 inability to pay and I would like to get some more 

20 updated information about that. So I would like to 

21 ask her some questions regarding her expenditures and 

22 her tax returns, things like that . 

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THE COURT: You essentially want to propound 

interrogatories to her it sounds like? 

MR. VINES: Yes, Judge, as well as request 

admission things of that nature. 

THE COURT: Okay. 

6 Ms. Ayala, what kind of information do you 

7 want from Mr. Vines in addition to the statements from 

8 the passengers. Is there something else that you 

9 would like to see from him? 

10 MS. AYALA: Yes. I am questioning why that 

11 airplane doesn't have camera onboard because now 

12 THE COURT: I am sorry. I couldn't 

13 MS. AYALA: with the new law due to the 

14 hijack all the .companies they put camera and that it 

15 specifically didn't have, so that throws me off so I 

16 would like to know why they don't have that. 

17 THE COURT: I am sorry. I am going to 

18 interrupt you. You are talking too fast for me. 

19 MS. AYALA: I am sorry. 

20 THE COURT: So what is it that you want to 

21 have that you don't understand? Tell me again. 

22 MS. AYALA: The camera onboard. 

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THE COURT: Why they don't have a camera? 

MS. AYALA: Yes. 

THE COURT: Well, they don't have to have a 

MS. AYALA: I was told I could use that 

6 camera as my witness. 

7 THE COURT: Well, they didn't have one and 

8 so you can't. 

9 MS. AYALA: Yes. So that is no good for me. 

10 THE COURT: No, it doesn't help you. 

11 MS. AYALA: If we had that camera, I don't 

12 need any witness. 

13 THE COURT: Yes. But there is no camera. 

14 MS. AYALA: Yes. 

15 THE COURT: Is there anything else that you 

16 think you would like to have from Mr. Vines? I am 

17 going to have him send you the statements from the 

18 passengers. Is there anything else that you would like 

19 to have from him? 

20 MS. AYALA: I think yes, if he wants me to 

21 pay, I would like to be -- any money that is 

22 available,.you know, the money that his company needs 

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THE COURT: Well, that is still in dispute. 

3 So you may want to send to Mr. Vines a statement of 

4 what you think would be fair to pay and why. But that 

5 is up to you. 

6 MS. AYALA: Yes. I was the first one who 

7 helped; they said who wants to sit in this empty seat? 

8 I said me, me, me. I was a volunteer and then I have 

9 this problem for being a volunteer. 

10 THE COURT: Uh-huh. Yes. 

11 MS. AYALA: But I could have flied in my in 

12 my own slot, I wouldn't be in this situation. 

13 THE COURT: Yes. Well, how about this. Why 

14 don't we take care of some of this discovery first. 

15 And we will see if that sheds some light on some of 

16 these questions that you and Mr. Vines have. 

17 MS. AYALA: Okay. 

18 THE COURT: All right. So Mr. Vines, I am 

19 going to be -- I am going to look at my calendar very 

20 quickly. Why don't we set March 15, 2013, for you to 

21 serve Ms. Ayala with a copy of the file, the FAA file 

22 that includes the 15 written statements from the 

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passengers; would that be a comfortable timeframe for 

you just for that particular piece of discovery? 

MR. VINES: Yes, Judge, I will send her the 

4 releasable portions of what we call the EIR, the 

5 Enforcement Investigative Report, which will contain 

6 the statements as well as other additional 

7 information. 

8 THE COURT: Okay. And then I know you want 

9 to send interrogatories to Ms. Ayala and you also want 

10 to send her some request for admission. And we are 

11 going to be talking about that. And I am going to ask 

12 you if you could potentially send those to her by, 

13 basically submit them to her by April 5, 2013? 

14 MR. VINES: Yes, Judge. 

15 THE COURT: And then, Ms. Ayala, basically 

16 what that means and I am going to give you a due date 

17 to respond to all of that. 

18 MS. AYALA: Okay. 

19 THE COURT: Yes, typically you have 30 days 

20 to respond to written requests for information. And 

21 what Mr. Vines is saying is he wants to send you some 

22 written questions to answer in writing so that you 

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1 have time to read them, talk to them with other 

2 friends if you have someone who wants to help you, and 

3 then write your responses and send them back to him. 

4 MS. AYALA: Okay. 

5 THE COURT: And typically people are given 

6 30 days from the date that the written questions are 

7 sent to get them back so that you have plenty of time 

8 to read them to yourself, think about them, gather 

9 information and answer. 

10 MS. AYALA: Okay. 

11 THE COURT: So if Mr. Vines sends these out 

12 to you by April 5, 2013, what I will do is I will ask 

13 you to mail them back to him no later than May 3, 

14 2013. 

15 MS. AYALA: Okay. 

16 THE COURT: Now, when you mail material back 

17 to Mr. Vines, if you want to send him a statement 

18 about your financial circumstances and tell him what 

19 you think would be a fair fine, you can do that, but 

20 you don't have to volunteer to do that. 

21 

22 

MS. AYALA: Okay. 

THE COURT: But you do need to answer the 

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1 questions that he asks you in writing. 

2 MS. AYALA: Okay. 

3 THE COURT: Now, if you have questions to 

4 ask of him, you can send him written questions as 

5 well. 

6 MS. AYALA: Okay. 

7 THE COURT: And you should send your written 

8 questions to Mr. Vine on or before April 5, 2013, same 

9 date he is required to send you his set of questions. 

10 MS. AYALA: Uh-huh. 

11 THE COURT: You are basically exchanging 

12 written questions. Does that make sense to you? 

13 MS. AYALA: Yes. 

14 THE COURT: Okay. You may not have written 

15 questions. I mean, you may feel that all of your 

16 questions have been answered and if that is so, great. 

17 But you may as you think about it, start to have some 

18 questions and if you so, you put them in writing and 

19 you submit them to Mr. Vines on or before April 5, 

20 2013. And then I will direct Mr. Vines to think about 

21 them, answer them, and send them back to you by May 3, 

22 2013 . 

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MS. AYALA: Okay. 

THE COURT: All right. And then what I am 

3 going to do at this point is I am going to set up a 

4 second litigation scheduling conference after May 3, 

5 2013, and I am going to check in with everybody about 

6 the status of this case. If all the discovery that 

7 you both want has been exchanged and you both feel you 

8 are ready for litigation deadlines for motions and/or 

9 to set a hearing, then we will set that up at our next 

10 conference. Let's take a look at our calendars in May 

11 2013, and I will start with you, Mr. Vines. Do you 

12 have any blackout days or weeks in May where we could 

13 not reconvene for a one hour telephone conference? 

14 MS AYALA: Hello. 

15 MR. VINES: I am sorry, Judge, I had you on 

16 mute. I am wide open for the month of May; however, I 

17 do have a -- I am on a flex schedule which I am off 

18 every other Monday. 

19 THE COURT: Okay. So which Mondays are you 

20 off ln May, so that I know? 

21 MR. VINES: First Monday would be May 13 and 

22 then every other Monday thereafter . 

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1 THE COURT: So May 13 and May 27, 2013, you 

2 are not available? 

3 MR. VINES: Yes, Judge. 

4 THE COURT: Okay. Thank you very much. 

5 Ms. Ayala, looking at your May 2013 calendar 

6 is there any day in May on that month and year that 

7 you are not available that you know of right now? 

8 MS. AYALA: So far my calendar is open, but 

9 I am searching for a job, so I don't know what is 

10 going to happen on that date. 

11 THE COURT: Fair enough. What we will do is 

12 we will set something now. If you end up getting a 

13 job and you need to have it changed, I will give you 

14 the name and phone number of Mr. Smith and you can 

15 notify him what your job schedule is and we will try 

16 and help you with that. 

17 MS. AYALA: Okay. Thank you very much. 

18 THE COURT: Yes. Ideally, you want to tell 

19 your employer that you have this appointment and can 

20 you have a little time off to have this one hour, like 

21 take your lunch early for example. But if that is not 

22 doable and you absolutely need to have it changed, 

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then I will put in Mr. Smith's name and phone number 

so that you can contact him. 

MS. AYALA: Great. 

THE COURT: All right. So let's plan on--

5 I am looking at my calendar-- let's plan on Tuesday, 

6 May 7 at 11:00 a.m.; that way, if you have a job, Ms. 

7 Ayala, you might be able to work it into an early 

8 lunch. 

9 MS. AYALA: Okay. 

10 THE COURT: No, actually, I am sorry. I 

11 spoke too soon. May 7 lS a little too soon after May 

12 3 . Let's say May 14 at 11:00. 

13 MS. AYALA: Okay. 

14 THE COURT: May 14, 2013 at 11:00 a.m. we 

15 will reconvene and I am just going to be touching base 

16 with both of you about the status of the case. And if 

17 you at that point are ready to go to hearing we can 

18 start setting up some new litigation dates. So I will 

19 send out a written order regarding all of the 

20 different discovery deadlines that we discussed today 

21 and in that order I will also note the following: 1. 

22 That Ms. Ayala's address has been confirmed as the 

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1 Wheaton, Maryland address; 2. That we have a new 

2 litigation scheduling conference for May 14, 2013, at 

3 11:00 a.m. Eastern Time; and then 3. I will put in 

4 all the other dates that we talked about with the 

5 responsibilities attached. 

6 So Mr. Vines, on behalf of the FAA, is there 

7 anything else that we can do for your client today? 

8 MR. VINES: No, Judge, thank you for asking. 

9 THE COURT: Ms. Ayala, on behalf of 

10 yourself, is there anything else that we can do for 

11 you today before we close? 

12 MS. AYALA: That is fine. Thank you very 

13 much. 

14 THE COURT: All right. Thank you both very 

15 much for your presence today. It appears our business 

16 is complete. I wish you good luck in your discovery 

17 exchange. With that, we can go off the record and I 

18 wish you all a good day. Thank you. 

19 

20 

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22 

MR. VINES: Thank you. 

MS. AYALA: You too. Bye-bye. 

MR. VINES: Bye-bye. 

(Whereupon, at 2:21 p.m.' the hearing 

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FAA v Clelia Ayala was adjourned.) 

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CERTIFICATE OF DIGITAL REPORTER 

I, ERICK MCNAIR, the officer before whom the 

foregoing hearing was taken, do hereby certify that 

4 the testimony appearing in the foregoing pages was 

5 recorded by me and thereafter reduced to typewriting 

6 under my direction; that said transcription is a true 

7 record of the testimony given by said parties; that I 

8 am neither counsel for, related to, nor employed by 

9 any of the parties to the action in which this hearing 

10 was taken; and, further, that I am not a relative or 

11 employee of any counsel or attorney employed by the 

12 parties hereto, nor financially or otherwise 

13 

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interested in the outcome of this action. 

~~-lli~ ERICK MCNAIR 

Digital Court Reporter 

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CERTIFICATE OF TRANSCRIPTION 

I, CHERYL taSELLE, hereby certify that I am not 

the Court Reporter who reported the following 

proceeding and that I have typed the transcript of this 

proceeding using the Court Reporter's notes and 

recordings. The for~going/attached transcript is a 

true, correct and complete transcription of said 

proceeding. 

CHERYL LaSELLE 

Transcriptionist 

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Capital Reporting Company 

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