1



### Environmental Protection Agency 1

2

3

4

5


### Public Hearing on 6



### Proposed Clean Power Plan for 7


### Existing Power Plants 8

9

10

11



### 9 a.m. to 8:05 p.m. 12



### Wednesday, July 30, 2014 13

14



### Room A 15



### Omni Hotel 16



### 100 CNN Center 17


### Atlanta, Georgia 30303 18

19

20

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### EPA PANEL 1: 1



### HEATHER MCTEER TONEY, Panel 1 Chair; and 2


### Regional Administrator, Region 4, EPA 3


### JULIA MILLER, Energy and Efficiency Expert, 4



### Office of Air and Radiation, EPA 5



### JEB STENHOUSE, Program Manager, 6



### Clear Air Markets Division, Office of 7



### Air and Radiation, EPA 8

9



### EPA PANEL 2: 10



### BEVERLY BAN ISTER, Panel 2 Chair; and Director, 11


### Air, Pesticides, and Toxics Management 12


### Division, Region 4, EPA 13


### JULIA MILLER, Energy and Efficiency Expert, 14



### Office of Air and Radiation, EPA 15



### JEB STENHOUSE, Program Manager, 16



### Clear Air Markets Division, Office of 17



### Air and Radiation, EPA 18

19

20

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### EPA PANEL 3: 1



### BEVERLY BANISTER, Panel 3 Chair; and Director, 2


### Air, Pesticides, and Toxics Management 3


### Division, Region 4, EPA 4



### JEANEANNE GETTLE , Deputy Director, 5


### Air, Pesticides, and Toxics Management 6


### Division, Region 4, EPA 7



### JEB STENHOUSE, Program Manager, 8



### Clear Air Markets Division, Office of 9



### Air and Radiation, EPA 10

11



### EPA PANEL 4: 12



### BEVERLY BANISTER, Panel 4 Chair; and Director, 13


### Air, Pesticides, and Toxics Management 14


### Division, Region 4, EPA 15



### JULIA MILLER, Energy and Efficiency Expert, 16



### Office of Air and Radiation, EPA 17


### DARRYL WEATHERHEAD, Managing Economist, EPA 18

19

20

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### C O N T E N T S 1



### PAGE 2



### MORNING SESSION 3



### VONDA BROWN, Habersham County EMC 18 4



### GEORGE CLARK, Manufacture Alabama 20 5


### MARK LOUGHMAN, Mississippi Power Com pany 23 6



### LARRY ROOKS, Local 84, International 7



### Brotherhood of Electrical Workers (IBEW) 27 8


### NINA DUTTON, Environmental epidemiology 9



### Researcher, Atlanta 31 10


### LAUREN POE, Gainesville Regional Utilities, 11



### Florida 36 12



### JOHN DUMAS, Southern Rive rs Energy 43 13


### JAMES FRAUEN, Seminole Electric Cooperative 48 14



### BRIAN THOMPSON, IBEW 53 15



### JIM VICK, Gulf Power Company 58 16



### MATT BOWDEN, Alabama Power Company 63 17



### CRAIG STINE, Resident of South Carolina 67 18


### ROY TAYLOR, Quaker Earthcare Witness 73 19



### DAVID LAMBERT, Withlacoochee River 20


### Electric Cooperative 79 21

22

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### C O N T E N T S (continued) 1



### PAGE 2



### MORNING SESSION (continued) 3


### JEFF BOWMAN, South Mississippi Electric 4



### Power Association 86 5



### ROMANOUS DOTSON, Altamaha EMC 91 6



### DALE KEMMERICK, Geor gia EPD Air 7



### Protection Branch 96 8


### RANDY HILL, Planters Electric Membership 9


### Corporation 102 10


### JUANITA ROARK, Resident of Georgia 106 11


### KATHERINE MITCHELL, Resident of Georgia 112 12


### JENAH ZWEIG, Southeast Energy Efficiency 13



### Alliance 116 14


### BILL VERNER, Georgia Electric Membership 15


### Corporation 122 16



### RAY TIDWELL, Retired coal miner, 17



### United Mine Workers, Local 9511 130 18



### WALTER PARKER 133 19



### VERNON BANKSTON, Retired coal miner 136 20



### MAKARA RUMLEY, GreenLaw 141 21

22

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### C O N T E N T S (continued) 1



### PAGE 2



### MORNING SESSION (continued) 3



### VICKY SULLIVAN, American Coalition for 4


### Clean Coal Electricity 145 5



### JACQUELINE PATTERSON 150 6

7



### AFTERNOON SESSION 8


### STEPHEN WILLIS, Georgia Sierra Club 163 9



### BEN MYERS, Int ernational Brotherhood of 10



### Electrical Workers, Local 613 167 11



### MARIE ROBINSON

- METZE 172 12



### JENNA GARLAND, Sierra Club 174 13


### JONI JENKINS, Kentucky House District 44 180 14



### DAVID MUHLY, Sierra Club 184 15


### MARK DOUGLAS, Georgia Interfaith 16


### Power and Light 191 17



### JAMES H. MCLEMORE, Alabama Industrial 18



### Energy Consumers (AIEC) 195 19


### BEN JOHNSON, Resident of Georgia 201 20


### ESTEFANI IGNACIO, Environment Georgia 206 21



### AMBER KELLER 209 22

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### C O N T E N T S (continued) 1



### PAGE 2



### A FTERNOON SESSION (continued) 3


### DJUAN COLEON, Project Urban Renewable 4



### Energy (PURE) 210 5


### ELIZABETH MARKS, Resident of Georgia 215 6


### THOMAS BEUSSE, Georgia Chemistry Council 219 7


### MARK GADDY, Berkeley Electric Cooperative 224 8



### EDDIE PLOWDEN, Be rkeley Electric Cooperative 229 9



### EVAN SWAAK, Student 236 10



### RUDI NAVARRA, Resident of Florida 239 11


### COLLEEN KIERNAN, Sierra Club, Georgia Chapter 242 12



### ALBERT ROESEL, Retiree 248 13



### TANISHA THOMAS 251 14



### LIZ PETERSON 253 15



### LUCY GRAD Y, Daughter of Liz Peterson 256 16



### BEN GRADY, Son of Liz Peterson 259 17

18



### EVENING SESSION 19



### CHIP BEEKER, Public Service Commission 20



### Of Alabama, Place 2 270 21



### PAUL REYNOLDS, Alabama Free Market Alliance 278 22

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### C O N T E N T S (continued) 1



### PAGE 2



### EVENING SESSION (continued) 3


### DAN FRIEDMAN, Resident of Georgia 283 4


### GRETCHEN ELSNER, Resident of Georgia 287 5


### RICH RUSK, Oconee River Chapter of Trout 6


### Unlimited and Georgia Climate Change 7



### Coalition 293 8


### JENNIFER PRAMUK, Resident of Georgia 299 9



### SAMUEL W. ELLIOTT 302 10



### TERRY WELSHER 306 11



### BONNI DEMARCO, Pharmacist 313 12


### DR. YOMI NOIBI, Environmental Community 13



### Action 317 14



### SUSAN BERRYMAN RODRIGUEZ, Mothers & Others 15



### For Clean Air 321 16



### RODNEY J. RUSSELL, Atlanta Chapter, 17


### American Association of Blacks in Energy 325 18


### BRANDON SUTTON, Resident of Georgia 330 19



### JOY KRAMER 334 20



### EDWARD PARADIS 337 21



### BECKY WEST PETTIS 342 22

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### C O N T E N T S (continued) 1



### PAGE 2



### EVENING SESSION (continued) 3



### LAUREN SMITH, Alliance for Climate 4


### Education's Youth Leadership Network 5



### of Atlanta 345 6



### DR. JALAL ZUBERI, Associate Professor of 7



### Clinical Pediatrics at Morehouse 8



### School of Medicine 349 9



### JIM REEFE 355 10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

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### P R O C E E D I N G S 1



### MORNING SESSION 2


### MS. TONEY: Good morning, everyone, and 3


### thank you for coming and joining us today on our 4


### second day of hearings on the proposed carbon 5


### pollution plan and proposed carbon pollution 6



### standards. 7


### My name is Heather McTeer Toney . I am 8


### the Regional Administrator here in the Southeast 9


### Region for Atlanta, Georgia, and I want to say 10



### welcome to each and every one of you, and thank 11


### you for coming, and traveling, and sharing your 12


### comments with us here today. 13


### Joining me on this panel t his morning are 14



### Julia Miller

-- she's an energy and efficiency 15


### expert for the Office of Air and Radiation

-- and 16


### also Jeb Stenhouse, who is Program Manager of the 17



### Clear Air Markets Division in the Office of Air 18


### and Radiation. They're both joining us from 19


### Washington today, so we appreciate their 20


### participation. 21


### And then, midway in this session, we'll 22

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### do a little change

- out, and we'll have Beverly 1


### Banister, who is our Region 4 Director of Air, 2


### Pesticides, and Toxics Management Division. She 3


### will be coming and joining the panel at 10 a.m. 4



### So you've got a wonderful panel of experts that 5


### are here to listen to your comments today, and 6



### we're very, very pleased to have you. 7


### Just as a little background information 8



### before we get started, EPA announced these 9



### prop osed rules in June of 2014. Power plants are 10


### the largest source of carbon pollution in the 11


### U.S., accounting for roughly one

- third of all the 12


### domestic greenhouse gas emissions. 13


### The first rule that EPA is proposing is 14



### the EPA's proposed Clean Power Plan for existing 15


### power plants. This proposal consists of two main 16



### parts: state

- specific goals to lower carbon 17


### pollution from power plants and guidelines to 18


### help states develop their plans for meeting the 19


### goals. This proposal gives states flexibility in 20



### dete rmining how to meet their goals. States will 21


### choose what goes into the plans, that show how 22

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### they will achieve the needed reductions and meet 1


### their goals by 2030. 2


### The second rule is EPA's proposed rule to 3



### address carbon dioxide emissions from modified 4



### and reconstructed power plants. This rule would 5


### set emission limits for two groups of power 6


### plants: those that make physical or operational 7


### changes that increase the plant's maximum 8


### achievable hourly rate of emissions, and those 9



### that replace components to s uch an extent that 10



### the new components exceed 50 percent of the 11


### capital costs of an entirely new comparable 12


### facility. 13


### Now, if you would like information or 14


### more details on these proposed rules, please see 15


### the EPA desk right out in the front foyer. There 16



### a re many materials there for you to pick up and 17



### read, and we really encourage you to go by and 18


### pick up more materials and information on the 19



### proposed rules. 20


### Also, let me remind you that

-- please 21


### sign at the EPA desk. We want to make sure that 22

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### you registe r with us and we have a good account 1


### of everyone who has joined us here this morning. 2


### Now, today's hearings are part of a 3


### larger group of hearings. There are four that 4


### are taking place across the United States, one, 5


### of course, here in Atlanta, Georgia; W ashington, 6


### D.C.; Denver, Colorado; and Pittsburgh, 7


### Pennsylvania. 8


### We really appreciate everyone who has 9



### traveled from near and far to be with us, to 10



### share your comments, and for that reason your 11


### comments are extremely important and critical, 12



### and we want to make sure that we have the 13


### opportunity to hear everyone fairly, evenly, and 14



### that all comments are made part of the record. 15


### We have a number of people who have signed up to 16


### speak at our hearings, and we want to hear from 17



### each and every one of you. 18



### So b efore we get started, let's go 19


### through just a few housekeeping rules of how we 20


### will proceed today. Again, first, please make 21


### sure that if you are going to speak that you have 22

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### checked in at the registration desk, and they 1


### have your name, and that they will bring those 2



### names to us so that we call them in order. Let 3


### them know if you have signed up, either by phone 4


### or electronically, to make sure that we have your 5


### name on the list and that you have arrived. 6



### Second of all, I believe we have two 7



### rooms today? Okay. Second note is that you want 8


### to make sure that you're in the correct room. If 9


### you're a speaker, you should have received a room 10


### letter, A or B. We are in Room A, and if you may 11


### be in Room B, this would be a good time to check 12



### and make sure you're in the correct place, and if 13


### you need to switch, we won't hold that against 14


### you, if you need to go to the other room. So 15


### make sure that you're in the correct place. 16


### The hearings will proceed as follows. I 17


### will call two names up to our speaking area, and 18


### when your name is called, please come to the 19



### tables here at the front of the room. If you 20


### need assistance in coming to the tables, we do 21


### have staff here available to assist you, to make 22

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### this access as easy as possible. 1



### When I call your name, please st ate your 2


### name for the record, and spell it for us, please, 3



### to make sure that we have that correct. We want 4



### to ensure that the court reporter can clearly 5


### transcribe all of your comments. They're going 6


### to be included in the comments on the proposed 7



### rules, so this is very important. 8


### Each speaker will have 5 minutes to give 9


### comments. We have a nice light to help you, to 10


### remind you of your time limit. When it's on 11


### green, you have approximately 4 minutes. The 12


### green light will then start to flash and turn to 13


### yellow, which will let you know that you have 1 14



### minute left, and when it turns to red, that lets 15


### you know that your time has winded to an end, and 16


### it will buzz. At that point, we will end the 17


### comments. However, if you have additional 18



### comments that you w ere unable to make, or would 19



### like to add, we do have information and comment 20


### cards at our registration desk. Please make sure 21


### that you go and you add those additional 22

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### comments, and they can also be included as part 1



### of this record. 2


### If you have written com ments that you 3


### have brought with you, as well, that you would 4


### like to have included as a part of the record, 5


### you may deliver those to the registration desk 6


### and they will also be included. 7


### We are very, very committed to making 8



### sure that all of your comment s are included in 9


### the record and that we are listening to everyone, 10


### and all of the information that you have to share 11


### with us. So, again, please be reminded that our 12


### comment period is open until October 16th, so 13


### there is plenty of time to make comments. Even 14


### if you hear something today and you think of 15


### something today, you still have an opportunity to 16



### make comments to the record, and you can do that 17


### again with the cards here, or by signing up to 18



### speak. 19



### Now, as a panel, we are here only to 20


### listen. We may ask you a clarifying question. 21


### That will not take away from your time, but it's 22

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### simply to clarify maybe something that you have 1



### said, or to ensure that we have a correct 2


### spelling, but those are the only questions that 3



### we may have, or answers that we may h ave for you, 4



### as a panel, today. 5


### Now, we have enjoyed, as a part of our 6


### hearings here in Atlanta, Georgia, wonderful 7


### Southern hospitality, and everyone has been 8


### extremely kind in listening to all of the 9


### statements fairly and evenly. I know that today 10



### it w ill continue in the same fashion, and we 11


### greatly appreciate that, because it gives 12


### fairness to each and every speaker, and allows 13


### them the opportunity to share their comments and 14



### make sure that they are part of the proposed 15



### rule. 16


### So, with that, we're goin g to go ahead 17


### and get started. If you have any additional 18


### questions, we do have EPA staff that's more than 19


### willing to help you and assist you, and we're 20


### going to go ahead. Everybody ready to go? All 21


### right. 22

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### Our first speakers this morning are Vonda 1



### Brow n and George Clark. Vonda Brown and George 2


### Clark. Good morning, Ms. Brown. You may begin. 3


### MS. BROWN: Well, good morning. My name 4



### is Vonda Brown, and a consumer member of the 5



### Habersham EMC. Vonda Brown, V

- o

- n

- d

- a. I'm a 6


### Habersham County native and I live and work in 7


### Clarksville, Georgia, where I'm the proud mother 8


### of three beautiful children, ages 17, 14, and 7. 9


### I'm also locally employed by a financial 10


### institution where I'm the compliance officer and 11



### internal audit. 12


### In my personal and professiona l life, I 13


### see the reality of economic conditions in my 14


### community on a daily basis. I traveled over 2 15



### hours to be here today, to speak before you, 16


### because I'm very concerned about the increase in 17


### my power bill if these regulations are adopted. 18



### In my part of Georgia, family budgets are 19



### stretched thin. The families I know in Habersham 20


### County cannot afford an increase in energy costs 21


### that will result from this energy plan. 22

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### My family has been involved with the EMC 1


### from the very beginning of bringing power to our 2


### area. I know my cooperative carefully considers 3


### all energy options to keep my power bill as low 4


### as possible. But this proposal will increase 5


### costs without any significant impact on carbon 6


### emissions or climate change. This is truly all 7


### pain with n o gain. 8


### I'm also terrified at the prospect of 9


### threatening American jobs, by nearly eliminating 10


### coal from the generation mix. As power plants 11


### begin to close, they could leave empty towns in 12


### their wake. American energy is one of the main 13



### drivers for our e conomy, and our economy simply 14



### cannot afford to add thousands of Americans to 15


### the unemployment list. I'm here today, a 16


### citizen, a voter, a taxpayer, to ask you to 17


### withdraw this proposal and consider a more 18



### common

- sense approach that will be a true all

- of

19



### the

- above energy strategy. 20


### I thank you for your time and the 21


### opportunity to speak before you today. 22

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### MS. TONEY: Thank you. Mr. Clark. 1



### MR. CLARK: I don't know how powerful 2


### this mic is. I hope you can hear me. Good 3


### morning. My name is George Clark, G

- e

- o

- r

- g

- e 4



### C

- l

- a

- r

- k. I am President of Manufacture 5



### Alabama. Manufacture Alabama is a trade 6


### association that represents manufacturers. We 7



### also have partners who are our vendors and 8


### suppliers. Those are the companies that help run 9


### our factories and per form maintenance and 10



### construction work, and environmental services, 11


### and other types of services, as well. And we are 12


### located in Montgomery, Alabama. 13



### Manufacture Alabama represents some of 14


### the major known manufacturers in the United 15


### States, basically all o f whom are engaged in what 16


### is commonly known as advanced manufacturing. 17


### Advanced manufacturing are those particular 18


### manufacturing jobs that are high

- demand jobs, 19


### they are highly paid jobs, and they require high 20


### developed skills, and one of the characteris tics 21


### of advanced manufacturing is that it is ever

22

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### changing, and the skills are ever

- changing to 1


### meet global competition. 2


### We are involved in global competition. We 3


### compete against our own selves sometimes, for 4


### capital investment, and that means that Alab ama 5


### may compete against Arkansas for one particular 6


### corporation's capital investment, and we are 7


### engaged in a highly competitive arena. 8



### And I am here, not today to speak out for 9


### those corporations. These are corporations that 10



### you know of and you have hea rd of. I'm here 11



### today to speak out on behalf of our employees and 12


### the employees of our vendors and suppliers that 13



### make us successful in what we do, and that's 14


### making things in Alabama, and making things in 15


### the United States. Our employees are well paid. 16


### Typically, they're going to be making over 17


### $100,000 a year, marvelous benefit packages. 18



### They are the backbone of Alabama's economy. 19


### Across the nation, those that are engaged in 20


### advanced manufacturing are the backbone of the 21



### United States of America. We help create the 22

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### middle class of the United States of America. 1


### My concern is that these proposed rules 2


### and regulations, while doing very little in terms 3


### of environmental protection, global warming, 4


### climate change, are going to have a massive 5


### impact on t he survivability and sustainability of 6


### the middle class of Alabama, and in the larger 7



### measure, the middle class of the United States of 8



### America. 9


### We have a slogan, a branding, in the 10


### state of Alabama, and I have a lapel pin on, 11


### which says "Made in Alabama. " If these 12


### regulations go into effect, we can change that to 13


### "Made in China." We will start exporting jobs 14


### from Alabama and from the United States by the 15



### tens of thousands, and would urge EPA to 16


### reconsider these proposals, in light of the 17


### damage it could do to our economy, and especially 18



### to the middle class of the United States. 19



### Thank you so much. 20



### MS. TONEY: Thank you, and thank you 21



### both. Our next speakers are Mark Loughman and 22

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### Larry Rooks, and if I have mispronounced that, 1


### please let me know. Is it Lowman or Lawman? 2


### Loafman? Got it. Loafman. We'll begin with Mr. 3



### Loughman. 4



### MR. LOUGHMAN: Thank you very much. My 5


### name is Mark Loughman. That's M

- a

- r

- k L

- o

- u

- g

- h

6



### m

- a

- n. I am the Director of Environmental 7


### Affairs at Mississippi Power Company. We ar e a 8


### subsidiary of Southern Company, and we provide 9


### safe, clean, reliable, and affordable power to 10


### nearly 200,000 customers in 23 southeastern 11


### Mississippi counties. 12



### I would like to make it clear that we 13


### also want clean air and a healthy environment for 14



### our customers and families. Our commitment is 15



### long

- standing, and our responsibility is evident 16


### in the work that we've already done to make the 17



### air, land, and water cleaner in our state. Our 18


### investments in pollution control over the past 25 19


### years have signif icantly reduced emissions, while 20


### our electricity generation has grown by more than 21


### 50 percent. And when it comes to carbon 22

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### emissions, we are not just talking about the 1


### issue; we are actually building the world's first 2


### clean coal technology plant in Kemper County, 3


### Mississippi. 4


### Today I would like to talk about three 5


### points about the proposal. Number one, the EPA's 6


### guidelines are a vast overreach of the authority 7


### granted under the Clean Air Act. Number two, the 8


### aggressive assumptions used to develop the st ate 9


### targets would strand generating assets, limit our 10


### ability to operate in a flexible manner, and 11


### force the price of electricity to rise. And 12


### number three, the proposal would essentially 13


### penalize Mississippi Power and the state of 14


### Mississippi for leading the development of full

15



### scale carbon capture and storage technology. 16


### The Clean Power Plan proposal, while 17


### creative in name, goes far beyond the authority 18


### provided under Section 111(d) of the Clean Air 19


### Act. EPA is limited to developing emissions 20


### guidelin es for existing power plants, based upon 21


### the best system of emission reductions, as 22

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### adequately demonstrated inside the fence of the 1



### power plant. 2


### In unprecedented fashion, the proposal 3


### has been developed using four building blocks 4



### that reach far beyond t he fence line, and would 5


### force our state to redesign our entire 6


### electricity system, with very limited options. 7



### And make no doubt about it

-- the electric rates 8


### will rise if the rule is finalized as proposed. 9


### Mississippi customers simply can't afford that. 10


### The overly aggressive assumptions used by 11



### EPA lead to absurd results, even by your own 12


### analysis. Re

- dispatching our natural gas, 13


### combined cycle fleet of 70 percent, would force 14


### us to shut down the state's existing coal fleet. 15


### This would severely restric t our fuel diversity 16



### and leave our customers at the mercy of ever

17


### volatile natural gas prices. This simply cannot 18


### be considered good policy. 19


### Specifically, for our company, it would 20


### force the retirement of the two large coal units 21



### at Plant Daniel in Jacks on County, and it's 22

OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 Washington: 202

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### important to remind you that we are currently 1


### investing $660 million in those units to comply 2


### with the recently finalized mercury rules. 3


### Stranding these assets, as you're proposing to 4


### do, would only further increase the cost for our 5



### cu stomers. 6


### Finally, as I mentioned, Mississippi 7


### Power is currently building the nation's first 8


### integrated gasification combined cycle project 9


### with carbon capture and storage in Kemper County. 10


### We'll be using abundant Mississippi lignite fuel 11



### and technology developed by Southern Company, and 12


### we will capture at least 65 percent of the carbon 13


### dioxide produced. The CO2 will then be used to 14



### extract another vital U.S. natural resource, oil. 15


### We began construction on this project 16



### about 4 years ago. We expect to b e in commercial 17


### operations next year. Rather than reward our 18


### research and development efforts, EPA's proposing 19


### a target more stringent than even this state

- of

20



### the

- art technology could achieve. If EPA 21


### finalizes the guidelines as proposed, it will 22

OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 Washington: 202

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### discoura ge additional technology, innovation, and 1



### development, and the message from EPA seems clear 2



### -- it does not pay to plan ahead. If you take 3


### early action, you will be forced to carry an even 4



### greater burden. 5


### Mississippi Power appreciates this 6


### opportunity to comment, and we would ask that EPA 7


### go back to the drawing board and re

- propose 8


### guidelines that are consistent with the Clean Air 9



### Act, that are based upon adequately demonstrated, 10



### inside

- the

- fence technology, and that recognize 11


### Mississippi's individual need s and the state's 12


### existing authority. 13



### Thank you. 14



### MS. TONEY: Thank you. Mr. Rooks. 15


### MR. ROOKS: My name is Larry Rooks, R

- o

16



### o

- k

- s, like the card game. I'm the business 17


### manager for Local 84, International Brotherhood 18


### of Electrical Workers. I'll spell t hat out since 19


### most folks may not know what that is. We 20


### represent 3,000 members in the state of Georgia. 21


### I worked for Georgia Power Company 42 22

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### years, and one reason why I'm glad to get to talk 1



### here today, I'm probably one of the few that has 2



### ever operat ed these units that they're talking 3


### about retiring. And the way the law reads right 4


### now is owners and/or operators can be fined or go 5


### to jail, so we always had that hanging over our 6


### heads, so we done a good job. And they would 7



### turn around, and the next t hing you know, our 8


### plant's being closed anyway. 9



### When we seen it's a 2015 deadline, we 10


### thought that was over with, so we're in the 11



### middle of a roll, in our union ranks, with 12


### Georgia Power Company, of relocating employees 13


### throughout the state, to the existi ng plants 14


### that's going to the state, and with these new 15


### guideline rules, they may be out of business, at 16



### the other coal plants. 17



### The environmental limits that are in 18


### place now are obtainable, but the ones that we 19



### see, in this new law, are not, where the 20



### te chnology that's in place, from operating these 21


### units for 38 years, so I didn't just come in here 22

OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 Washington: 202

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### saying I've operated a unit a day or two. I made 1


### a living. I'll be 61 years old in September, so 2


### I've been doing this since I was 18 years old. So 3



### when they say that we're meeting the guidelines, 4



### we are, because we are held to those standards. 5



### And the environment, we're all for clean 6


### air and clean water. I've got a brand new 7


### grandbaby that was just born Saturday. I've 8


### looked for her a bright future, but I wanted also 9


### something that her parents can afford to provide 10


### for her. So if they're going to have to give a 11


### fortune for electricity, it's going to be hard 12



### for them to do, with even the two of them 13


### working. 14



### And the local area around Plant Yates, a 15



### lot of the businesses are going to be closing up 16



### because they had depended on that plant, even 17


### though they're going to keep two units and 18


### convert them over to natural gas. Still, a lot 19


### of them now are closing up, because there's not 20


### enough working there to make it worth their while 21


### to stay open. So this is communities, it's going 22

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### to be at Harllee Branch at Milledgeville, 1


### Eatonton area, and Albany, and these are areas in 2


### the state where these plants are closing, and 3


### it's going to be an impact on the whole 4



### commun ity. 5


### As the business manager for our Local, I 6



### hear about the problems that our members are 7


### having with relocation, and the job they've done 8


### for the power company for years, and it's sort of 9


### a slap in the face that we have tried everything, 10


### every environme ntal law that's come about, and 11


### met those, usually a year ahead of time, most of 12


### the time. So it's not like Georgia Power and our 13


### employees don't care about the clean air or 14


### meeting the guidelines. You've got to meet them 15



### ahead. You can't wait until the last minute. 16


### So we think that these rules are way 17


### beyond what's there in place now. It's affected 18


### my members, so I appreciate the opportunity to 19



### get to speak for them today. 20



### Thank you. 21


### MS. TONEY: Thank you. Mr. Rooks, just a 22

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### clarifying question. You said IBEW. 1



### MR. ROOKS: International Brotherhood of 2



### Electrical Workers. 3


### MS. TONEY: Okay. I just wanted to make 4


### sure I had it correct, of Georgia. Okay. Thank 5


### you, sir. 6



### MR. ROOKS: Yes. Local 84. 7


### MS. TONEY: Our next speakers will be 8



### Nina Dutto n and Lauren Poe. We'll begin with 9



### Nina Dutton. 10


### MS. DUTTON: Good morning. My name is 11



### Nina Dutton, N

- i

- n

- a D

- u

- t

- t

- o

- n. I live in 12


### Atlanta and work in environmental epidemiology 13


### research. Thank you all for the opportunity to 14


### speak today, but while I am very glad to have 15


### this opportunity, it should not be necessary to 16


### say what I'm going to say today, because none of 17


### this is new or revolutionary. 18


### There is an overwhelming body of evidence 19


### to support that greenhouse gases emitted through 20


### human activity a re driving the increase in global 21


### atmospheric temperature that is disrupting our 22

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### climate. My colleagues in public health research 1


### have conducted study after study to examine the 2


### impacts of climate disruption on health, 3


### projecting increases in rates of hea t

- related 4


### deaths and respiratory symptoms, the spread of 5



### vector

- borne disease to new regions, and losses 6


### of lives and livelihoods to flooding, in some 7


### places, and unchecked drought or fire in others, 8



### for example. 9


### My colleagues in public health practice, 10


### who work directly in communities around the 11


### world, have seen such impacts already. You've 12


### heard and will hear from people who have 13


### personally experienced some of these effects. 14



### I'm not one of these people. Sure, we're all 15



### downstream from somewhere. Th ere's mercury in 16


### fish I've eaten and particulates in the air I 17


### breath, but I haven't experienced the effects of 18


### pollution from combustion of fossil fuels or 19


### climate disruption, as dramatically as the child 20


### with asthma whose attacks are triggered by air 21



### pol lution, or the elder who suffers during a heat 22

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### wave, or the coastal resident whose home and life 1


### are threatened by higher storm surges or whose 2


### water supply is tainted by salt water intrusion, 3


### or the farm whose crops are no longer suited to 4



### the local clima te. 5


### I haven't mined for a living. I haven't 6


### had to live downhill from a coal ash pond or next 7


### to a fracking field. I can't speak for those 8


### people directly, but I do have empathy for them. 9


### That's why I care enough to be here. Their 10



### concerns must be c onsidered and I call on the 11


### EPA, specifically, among society as a whole, to 12


### respond to the needs of those bearing the brunt 13


### of the effects of pollution and climate 14


### disruption. 15


### Again, none of this evidence is new and 16


### none of these needs are new. They just keep 17


### accumulating. I shouldn't have to be here right 18


### now to fight for a federal rule to reduce carbon 19


### pollution from power plants, but in the absence 20


### of such a rule, the energy industry has shown a 21


### dogged unwillingness to change sufficiently. 22

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### Georgia Po wer still operates the top and third

1


### most polluting power plants in the country, and 2


### Southern Company persists as the worst such 3


### carbon polluter in the U.S., despite ample 4


### potential for energy efficiency and renewable 5


### energy resources in the state and regi on. 6


### So, while I do appreciate the EPA's 7


### efforts in finally being able to propose this 8



### Clean Power Plan as a move in the direction we 9



### must take, there is more that must be done, with 10


### remaining priorities. The first is bigger carbon 11


### pollution reductions. We can and should work 12


### toward a much larger emission reduction goal, 13


### such as 40 percent reductions below 2005 levels 14



### by 2020. 15


### The alternative option of a 5

- year period 16


### for compliance time with a less stringent set of 17


### CO2 emission performance levels is the opposite 18



### of what needs to be done in the interest of the 19


### American people and the global population. 20


### Compliance can happen within the time period 21


### proposed in the Clear Power Plan, and the plan 22

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### should incorporate the most stringent carbon 1


### pollution red uctions as are feasible within the 2


### existing proposed compliance time period. 3


### The second priority is

-- well, all these 4


### are priorities. The second point is renewables 5


### and energy efficiency. As it stands, the Clean 6


### Power Plan allows for aging coal fleets to be 7


### sustained, allows nuclear plants to be considered 8



### cost

- effective investments worth the safety risks 9


### to the public, and does not address methane 10


### emissions from transport and use of natural gas. 11



### These allowance should not be made for coal and 12



### nuclear because they divert funds from creating 13


### sustainable systems. 14


### Also, energy efficiency should be a 15


### mandated building block, not just one available 16


### option. States should meet the new standards 17


### through renewable energy and efficiency because 18



### this is the fast est, cleanest, and most cost

19


### effective path. States can meet the targets 20


### without increasing use of dirty and dangerous 21


### energy sources like nuclear or natural gas. As 22

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### you know, this can all be done while decreasing 1


### overall costs to customers and the public

. 2



### We must ensure that effective communities 3



### are engaged throughout the process and that 4


### public resources are available to help workers 5


### and communities as they make the transition to a 6



### clean energy economy. You've heard countless 7



### times about what we owe t o future generations, 8


### but we are here now and climate disruption is 9



### here now. 10


### I want to build my own future in a world 11


### in which sustainability is a baseline assumption 12


### for how society operates, not an impractical 13



### burden. People, young and old, around t he world 14



### share this dream. Please take bold action now on 15


### carbon pollution reduction, to help make that 16


### dream a reality. 17



### Thank you. 18



### MS. TONEY: Thank you. Mr. Poe. 19


### MR. POE: Good morning. My name is 20


### Lauren Poe. I am a city commissioner with the 21



### Ci ty of Gainesville in Gainesville, Florida, and 22

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### the testimony I'm about to deliver was 1


### unanimously approved by the entire City 2


### Commission, which also serves as the governing 3


### board for Gainesville Regional Utilities, a 4


### municipally owned utility. 5



### MS. TONEY: Mr. Poe, could you spell your 6



### name for the record? 7



### MR. POE: Yes. L

- a

- u

- r

- e

- n P

- o

- e. 8


### Gainesville Regional Utilities is a multi

- service 9


### utility owned by the City of Gainesville, 10



### Florida. GRU is the fifth

- largest municipal 11


### utility in Florida. Our combin ed services make 12


### us the most comprehensive utility service 13


### provider in the state. We serve approximately 14



### 90,000 retail and wholesale customers in 15


### Gainesville and surrounding areas, offering 16


### electric, natural gas, water, wastewater, and 17



### telecommunications services. 18


### Over the last decade, the City of 19


### Gainesville GRU has done exactly what we believe 20


### the EPA's Clean Power Rule intends to accomplish 21



### -- greatly reduced carbon dioxide emissions. We 22

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### set a goal of reducing CO2 emissions to 7 percent 1



### below the 19 90 values by the end of 2013, and, 2


### with a concerted effort, exceeded this goal with 3


### a 13 percent reduction by the end of 2012. 4


### We accomplished these reductions through 5


### a variety of measures, including adding renewable 6


### energy to our generation mix, conve rting more 7


### natural gas, and implementing aggressive energy 8


### conservation programs since 2005. Our energy 9


### conservation programs alone have resulted in the 10


### reduction of 26 megawatts of demand and 131,000 11



### megawatt

- hours of energy annually. 12



### In fact, electri city consumption by GRU's 13



### customers was the same in 2013 as it was in 2000. 14



### While some of this can be attributed to factors 15


### such as the sluggish economy, new federal 16


### appliance standards, and updated building codes, 17



### our efforts, combined with our customers ' 18


### efforts, have helped us to make huge reductions 19


### in energy use. This has not been without a cost 20


### to our customers. GRU currently has the highest 21


### electric rates in the state of Florida, in part 22

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### due to our actions taken to reduce CO2. 1



### With these factor s, in mind, these are 2


### two primary points we would like to offer for 3


### consideration in the proposed CO2 rulemaking. 4


### First, the proposed rule does not give credit for 5


### significant investments made by utilities for 6


### renewable energy and energy efficiency progra ms 7


### to reduce greenhouse gas CO2 prior to 2012. 8



### We believe that EPA should allow states 9


### to incorporate emission reductions made by 10


### electric systems prior to the effective baseline 11


### of 2012. As noted above, GRU has implemented 12


### significant renewable energy programs and 13


### projects, and invested $28 million in energy 14


### efficiency. 15


### We were the first utility in the United 16



### States to offer a solar feed

- in tariff, which 17


### dramatically stimulated the construction of the 18


### solar energy in our community. We created 19



### conse rvation programs which include residential 20


### duct sealing and attic insulation rebate 21


### programs. We incorporated landfill gas to energy 22

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### projects into our generation portfolio, and we 1


### were the first utility east of the Mississippi 2


### River to build and operate a natural gas

- fired 3


### combined heat and power facility with a thermal 4


### efficiency greater than 70 percent. 5


### In prior years, GRU's electric generation 6


### was primarily fossil fuel

- based with non

- fossil 7


### generation representing less than 5 percent of 8



### our energy supp ly. However, in late 2013, we 9


### added 100 megawatts of biomass energy to our 10


### electric generating system. This addition, along 11


### with an aggressive solar energy program that has 12


### added approximately 16 megawatts of photovoltaic 13


### solar capacity to our system, wi ll allow us to 14



### meet nearly 34 percent of our customer energy 15


### needs with renewable generation. As proposed, 16


### the existing source performance standard 17


### penalized GRU and other Florida utilities by not 18


### providing credit for early actions taken to 19



### reduce CO2. 20


### The proposed ESPS emission reduction 21


### goals depend on four compliance building blocks. 22

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### EPA's compliance building block number three 1


### assumes that about 10 percent of Florida's 2


### generation could come from renewable energy by 3


### 2030. Since GRU already has roug hly 34 percent 4


### of its energy coming from renewable energy, 5


### additional renewable energy is not a viable 6


### option for us. It should be noted that the 7


### proposed ESPS fails to recognize GRU's early 8


### action to adopt renewable energy. 9


### EPA's compliance building blo ck number 10



### four assumes that demand

- side management can 11


### reduce electric demand by 10 percent by 2030. 12



### However, Florida and Gainesville are estimated to 13


### continue to experience significant population 14


### growth. EPA's ESPS does not appear to consider 15



### the state or locality's future growth. 16


### Additionally, GRU's aggressive historical 17


### conservation programs, along with providing 18


### natural gas service to end

- use customers, have 19


### helped us to attain the lowest per capita 20


### electricity use in the state of Florida. Failure 21


### to recognize early reduction sends the wrong 22

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### public policy message. Early voluntary actions 1


### must be considered for compliance purposes and 2


### EPA's ESPS guidelines to the states and 3



### individual utilities, such as GRU. 4


### A second primary concern relates to the 5


### potential for stranded costs from early 6


### investments our community made to comply with 7



### EPA's Clean Air Interstate Rule and Clean Air 8



### Mercury Rule. The ESPS's proposed depends 9


### primarily on load shifting from coal to natural 10


### gas generation for compliance. The shift in 11


### natural gas would likely result in premature 12


### closing of our coal unit. While EPA recognizes 13



### the increased cost to consumers with load 14


### shifting to natural gas, it does not consider the 15


### stranded cost for those units that still carry 16



### considerabl e debt. 17



### MS. TONEY: Okay. Thank you, Mr. Poe. 18


### If you will make sure that you submit any 19


### additional comments that you have that we were 20


### not able to listen to today, please make sure 21


### that we have that written statement as a part of 22

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### our record. 1



### MR. POE: Yes, ma'am. 2


### MS. TONEY: I do have one question to 3


### clarify. You stated that this was a unanimously 4



### voted upon comment from

-- is it from the City of 5


### Gainesville or from the Gainesville Utility GRU/ 6


### MR. POE: Yes, ma'am. They're one in the 7



### same. The Gai nesville City Commission is the 8


### governing board for Gainesville Regional 9



### Utilities. 10



### MS. TONEY: Okay. Thank you. Thank you 11



### both. 12


### MR. POE: And, ma'am, who should I give 13



### the comments to? 14


### [No audible response.] 15



### MS. TONEY: Our next speakers are John 16



### Du mas and James Frauen. Mr. Frauen, did I 17


### pronounce that correct? Is it Frauen? Okay. 18


### We'll begin with Mr. Dumas. 19


### MR. DUMAS: Thank you. My name is John 20



### Dumas, J

- o

- h

- n D

- u

- m

- a

- s. I'm a retired employee 21


### for Farm Service Agency with 32 years of service. 22

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### My last 26 years, I served as district director, 1


### where I served 24 counties and supervised them in 2


### the state of Georgia. I currently serve on the 3


### board of Directors with Southern Rivers Energy, 4


### located in Barnesville, Georgia. I've been on 5



### the board fo r 8 years. 6


### I'm speaking on behalf of 14,694 members 7


### served by Southern Rivers Energy in nine member 8


### Georgia counties. Rural electric cooperatives 9


### like Southern Rivers Energy are a unique part of 10


### the electric utility industry. We are not

- for

11


### profit, membe rs

- owned, members

- governed utilities 12


### that provide electricity for 42 million people 13


### nationwide. Our responsibility, as directed by 14



### our consumer

- owned, is to provide safe, reliable, 15



### and affordable power. 16


### The EPA proposed ruling will increases 17


### costs, jeopa rdize reliability, and threaten 18


### thousands of American jobs, without any 19


### significant impact on global, CO2, emission, or 20


### climate change. The people we serve cannot 21


### afford higher electric prices. Electric co

- ops 22

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### serve 93 percent of preexisting and poverty 1


### candidates in the country. Already, folks in the 2


### current American rural area, on average, earn a 3


### low income and generally pay more for energy. 4


### Fifty

- three percent of Georgia 5



### households, or more than one

- half of the families 6


### in the great nation of this state, spend an 7


### estimated average of 22 percent of their after

8


### tax income on energy. At Southern Rivers Energy, 9


### we see this every month, as many of our members 10


### continually struggle to pay their electricity 11



### bills. So additional cost with no benefit is 12



### sim ply unacceptable. 13


### An upgrade to meet all of the things that 14



### are needed, our customers already are on the hook 15



### for long

- term investment in coal plants, built 16


### and upgraded to meet their needs, including 17


### environmental compliance, upgrades to comply with 18



### curr ent clear air rules. If this new EPA 19


### proposal is implemented, our consumers will have 20


### to pay more for new resources required to replace 21


### our coal plants, new gas generation, gas 22

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### pipelines, gas storage capacity, new renewable 1


### energy, and the transmission th at it requires, 2


### and hundreds of billions of dollars in new energy 3


### efficiency investment. 4


### As a cooperative, all of these costs will 5



### have to be borne by our members, many of whom, 6


### like I said earlier, simply cannot afford any 7


### increase in their cost of energ y. We all take 8


### for granted that our phones will charge and the 9


### lights will come on when we flip the switch. The 10


### EPA proposal will well change that which we take 11



### for granted today. 12


### Let me give you a current example. The 13


### very coal unit that could be shut down because of 14


### this rule was absolutely critical to keep the 15


### lights on during the polar vortex this year. 16


### This EPA ruling abandons the safety and wisdom of 17



### an all

- of

- the

- above energy strategy. 18


### I've worked with farmers all my life. 19



### Farmers generally ha ve a lot of good, old

20


### fashioned common sense, like don't put all your 21


### eggs in one basket. This country must keep a 22

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### true, all

- of

- the

- above fuel strategy that allows 1


### utilities to build and operate a diverse 2


### portfolio on energy resources that ensure that 3



### Ame rican families are not left in the dark. Once 4


### these coal plants are closed, there is no magic 5


### switch to flip and turn them back on in a time of 6



### need. 7


### In close, I leave you with three unique 8


### reminders about electric cooperatives. Electric 9


### cooperatives a re private, not

- for

- profit 10


### businesses, and owned and governed by their 11



### consumer members. Roughly three

- fourths of the 12


### nation's land mass is served by the cooperative 13



### electric alliance and three

- fourths of Georgia 14


### land is, too. Ninety percent of our consu mers 15


### are residential, which accounts for roughly two

16


### thirds of the energy sales. No other electric 17


### utility sector is dominated like this by 18



### residential market. 19


### Again, I thank you for your time. 20



### MR. TONEY: Thank you, Mr. Dumas. Mr. 21


### Frauen. Oh, give me just one moment. We want to 22

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### make sure that you have all of your time. You 1



### can proceed. 2


### MR. FRAUEN: Okay. Yeah. My name is 3



### James Frauen. That's F

- r

- a

- u

- e

- n. I'm the Vice 4


### President of Technical Services and Development 5


### at Seminole Electric Cooperati ve, located in 6


### Tampa, Florida. Seminole is one of the largest 7



### not

- for

- profit generation and transmission 8


### cooperatives in the country. Seminole provides 9


### reliable, competitively priced wholesale electric 10


### power to nine member distribution electric 11


### cooperati ves. Approximately 1.4 million 12


### consumers and businesses, in parts of 42 Florida 13


### counties rely on Seminole's member distribution 14


### cooperatives for electricity. 15



### On behalf of Seminole and it's not

- for

16


### profit, member

- owned electric cooperatives, we 17



### would like to express our sincere and utmost 18


### concern regarding the EPA's Clean Power Plan, 19


### aimed at regulating carbon dioxide emissions from 20


### existing power plants, specifically coal

- fired 21



### facilities. 22

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### Through the Clean Power Plan, the EPA is 1


### proposing that Florida r educe its overall carbon 2


### emissions by 38 percent. This value is based on 3


### EPA's 2012 data year versus the rural's headline 4


### year of 2005. EPA's calculations for Florida did 5


### not account for approximately 20 percent 6



### reduction in CO2 emissions that have alrea dy 7



### occurred in Florida since 2005. 8


### In order to achieve the 38 percent goal, 9



### the EPA calculates that Florida will have to 10



### reduce its coal

- fired power generation by more 11


### than 90 percent. This is significant for 12


### Seminole. We generate more than 50 percent of 13


### the electricity our members need from our own 14



### coal

- fired resources. 15



### Based on EPA's calculations contained in 16


### the proposed rule, Seminole's coal

- fired 17


### generating facilities have been arbitrarily 18



### scheduled for retirement well before the end of 19



### their u seful life, with no regard for economic 20


### hardship it will cause our members and consumers. 21



### In 1978, the U.S. enacted the Power Plant 22

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### and Industrial Fuel Use Act, which restricted new 1


### power plants from using oil or natural gas for 2


### power generation, and enco uraged the use of coal. 3



### Seminole's coal

- fired facility came online in 4



### 1984. Seminole built coal because it did not 5


### have another viable option. Now, the EPA is 6


### proposing to punish consumers who buy power from 7



### electric utilities that burn coal. Seminole, our 8



### members, and their member consumers should not be 9


### penalized for following the laws of our nation. 10


### One of Seminole's highest priorities is 11


### to ensure that all generating resources are 12


### operated in an environmentally responsible 13



### manner. Seminole has inv ested more than $530 14


### million in environmental control technology and 15


### recycling practices, $260 million of which was 16


### placed in service less than 5 years ago. 17


### To reduce emissions, and as part of 18



### Seminole's commitment to our communities, 19


### approximately 70 per cent of the byproducts used 20


### at our coal facility are recycled for use in 21


### products that consumers use every day, including 22

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### wallboard and concrete. These continued 1


### investments have made Seminole's facility one of 2



### the cleanest coal

- based power plants in the 3



### country. 4


### The EPA must consider these expensive and 5



### extensive environmental controls installed to 6


### comply with other regulations implemented by the 7



### agency. Should the EPA's proposed carbon rule be 8


### finalized, these costly investments will become 9



### stranded as sets, and Seminole's coal

- fired power 10


### plants will be forced to closed, leaving 300 11



### hard

- working, skilled employees without a job. 12


### Additionally, Seminole would have to 13


### build or purchase new generation to replace the 14


### electricity produced from its coal

- fir ed 15


### facility. Such a drastic and sudden shift in 16


### Seminole's power portfolio will not only drive up 17


### the cost of electricity for our member 18


### cooperatives and their consumer members, but it 19


### could have sweeping, unintended consequences for 20


### our fragile but recov ering work force and economy 21



### in Florida. 22

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### Seminole believes it makes good business 1


### sense to have a diversified generation portfolio 2


### in Florida that includes coal, natural gas, and 3


### renewable energy. Fuel diversity reduced 4


### exposure to changing market condi tions, helps 5


### keep rates competitive, and it provides much

6


### needed flexibility during extreme weather events, 7


### such as hurricanes. Displacing existing coal

8


### fired power plants, as proposed by the EPA, will 9



### lead to increased cost for consumers, will 10


### jeopardize reliability, and will place undue 11


### stress on gas and transmission infrastructure 12



### within the state. 13



### Seminole believes the EPA's Clean Power 14


### Plan poses significant legal challenges that will 15


### need to be litigated if it's finally enacted. 16



### Seminole has seri ous concerns about the EPA's 17


### flawed approach to establish national energy 18


### policy through expensive, unnecessary government 19


### regulation. Seminole supports rational energy 20


### and environmental policy that does not harm the 21


### affordability or reliability of power production 22

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### and delivery. 1



### Thank you. 2



### MS. TONEY: Thank you, and thank you 3


### both. Our next speakers are James Vick and Brian 4


### Thompson. We'll begin with Mr. Vick. We'll 5


### begin with Mr. Vick. 6


### MR. VICK: Good morning. My name is 7


### Brian Thompson and I'm an i nternational 8


### representative with the International Brotherhood 9


### of Electric Workers, or the IBEW. I've spent 10


### more than 30 years of my career working in the 11


### utility industry as a power plant worker and 12


### mechanic for Florida Power and Light, and 13


### representing the thousands of workers who provide 14


### electricity to the customers at a state, local, 15



### and now at an international level, as an 16


### international representative. 17



### On behalf of the IBEW members in the 18



### entire 5th District, which includes the states of 19


### Georgia, Flo rida, Alabama, Mississippi, and 20


### Louisiana, I thank you for this opportunity to 21


### testify today. 22

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### The IBEW has a strong concern about the 1


### EPA's Clean Power Plan as proposed. The issue 2


### here is not just about clean air. The IBEW has 3


### supported policies that fo ster cleaner and 4


### greener environments. Within the IBEW 5th 5


### District, we have consistently supported good 6


### common sense policies and projects that have 7


### brought new technology and environmentally 8


### friendly power plants online, and support 9


### alternative energy s ources such as nuclear, 10


### hydro, and renewables like wind and solar, as 11


### well, just to name a few. 12


### However, the IBEW is very concerned about 13


### the EPA's Clean Power Plan impact on our members' 14


### jobs, the electricity affordability and 15


### reliability of the nation's power grids for the 16


### millions of Americans who use electricity as an 17



### essential lifeline. 18


### The issue is how far do we go to achieve 19


### clean out without disrupting our entire economy, 20


### devastating an industry and the loss of hundreds 21


### of thousands of jobs that g o along with it. The 22

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### EPA reports the Clean Air Plan will lead to the 1


### nationwide closure of anywhere from 41 to 49 2


### gigawatts of coal

- fired generation by 2020. 3


### That's just six short years from now. This is 4


### the equivalent of approximately the entire state 5


### of Georgia losing energy. Due to the nature of 6


### the rule, the exact plant closures and gigawatts 7



### that will be shuttered will remain unknown and 8


### difficult to assess for quite some time. 9



### However, the EPA's own IPM assessment 10


### estimates at 48 plants, not al l of them coal, 11



### will close within the IBEW's 5th District alone. 12


### Using those same assessments, this equates to the 13


### loss of 31,332 megawatts of electricity and 14


### approximately 6,300 jobs here in the five states 15


### that make up the 5th District, not to mention t he 16


### thousands of ancillary jobs and services 17


### associated within the utility industry, as well. 18


### History has shown that EPA assessments of 19


### the regulations are extremely optimistic and far 20


### from reality. When the EPA issued the Mercury 21



### and Air Toxics Standard, or MATS, the IBEW, along 22

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### with other organizations, spoke up, saying at 1


### least 56 gigawatts of generation would be lost. 2


### The EPA predicted only 4. As of today, a total 3


### of 60 gigawatts, and counting, have been lost 4



### because of the EPA's MATS rule. Our expe rience, 5


### as the IBEW, working with the system, told us 6



### that the EPA's estimates were far too low, and we 7


### believe today that the EPA's estimates at this 8



### time are also too low. 9



### The closures from the Clean Power Plan, 10


### on top of the plant closures associated w ith the 11


### MATS rule, will result in 40 percent of the U.S. 12


### coal generation being retired forever, and 13


### despite what optimists may say, there is not 14


### enough natural gas capacity or power generated 15


### from renewables like wind and solar to make up 16



### that difference f or decades to come. 17


### This relatively fast and dramatic change 18


### in our nation's electric generation threatens the 19


### reliability of the U.S. generation grid, 20


### potentially making brownouts and blackouts 21


### commonplace. To compensate, local utilities will 22

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### purchase p ower at premium costs and pass those 1


### costs on to consumers, many of which cannot 2


### afford other added expenses to their household or 3


### business budgets. 4


### America needs a genuine bipartisan plan 5



### from Congress that grows our economy, renovates 6


### our aged infrast ructure, and reduces carbon 7


### emissions, and sets a realistic plan for the 8



### future. 9



### The IBEW does not believe the EPA's Clean 10


### Power Proposal is such a plan, and our 11


### recommendations include providing credit to 12


### states that have already reduced carbon emissions 13


### from EPA targets; delaying implementation of the 14



### Clean Power Plan to allow states and utilities 15


### adequate time to implement compliance strategies 16


### and share those strategies with the public; and a 17


### global climate change plan that brings developing 18



### nations li ke China and India to the table. Both 19


### of those nations share the global emissions and 20


### are growing every year, and without global 21


### commitment to fighting climate change, the EPA's 22

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### regulations will not bring a net benefit. 1



### Thank you. 2



### MS. TONEY: Thank you. Thank you both, 3



### gentlemen. Our next speakers are Matthew Bowden 4


### and Craig Stine. Oh, I'm sorry. Forgive me. 5



### Mr. Vick. 6



### MR. VICK: Thank you. 7


### MS. TONEY: Okay. I apologize. 8


### MR. VICK: That's okay. Good morning. I 9



### am Jim Vick, Environmental Affair s Director at 10


### Gulf Power Company. Gulf Power, a subsidiary of 11


### the Southern Company, is an investor on electric 12


### utility companies spanning northwest Florida, and 13


### serving more than 436,000 customers in 71 towns 14


### and communities. We are committed to providin g 15


### clean, safe, reliable, and affordable electricity 16


### by maintaining a diverse generation fleet while 17


### protecting and preserving the environment. 18


### Today, Gulf Power would like to share 19


### three significant concerns regarding EPA's Clean 20


### Power Plan proposal and i ts potential impact on 21


### our customers. First, EPA's proposal jeopardizes 22

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### the state of Florida's, and Gulf Power's ability 1


### to maintain fuel diversity, which is absolutely 2


### essential to continuing to provide our customers 3



### with reliable and affordable electric ity. 4


### Second, EPA's proposal will result in 5


### stranded investments in existing generation 6


### assets. Third, EPA has overstepped its authority 7


### and eroded the state of Florida's flexibility to 8


### create standards and compliance programs. 9


### EPA's proposed guidelines would force the 10


### state of Florida to rely even more heavily on 11


### natural gas generation, thus putting more strain 12


### on its already limited natural gas pipeline 13


### infrastructure. Presently, there are only two 14


### main natural gas pipeline systems serving the 15



### state of Florida. An increased reliance creates 16


### reliability concerns due to unforeseen natural 17


### gas transportation issues, and is only 18


### exacerbated when coupled with the possible 19


### retirement of existing coal generation. 20


### In setting Florida's goal, EPA assumes 21



### that t he coal generation in the state will be 22

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### reduced by 91 percent. Furthermore, EPA's 1


### modeling results in the retirement of Gulf 2



### Power's entire coal fleet. The retirement of 3


### this capacity will hinder Gulf Power's ability to 4


### reliably serve customers and econo mically 5


### dispatch its fleet. Our customers will certainly 6


### be more susceptible to natural gas price spikes, 7


### which recent history has proven inevitable. 8


### Secondly, EPA notes during its outreach 9



### process stakeholders expressed concerns that the 10


### proposed guidel ines could potentially result in 11


### stranded investments, made in existing generation 12


### assets to comply with other EPA rules. EPA 13


### states that the proposal includes features that 14



### are intended to avoid the creation of stranded 15



### assets. EPA's attempt, however, f alls flat, 16


### based on its own modeling. 17


### In 2009, a $600 million scrubber system 18


### began operation at Gulf Power Plant Crist in 19


### Pensacola, Florida. EPA's modeling shows Crist 20


### units 4 and 5 retiring in the base case, and 21


### Crist units 6 and 7 retiring in the m ain 22

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### compliance case. The unrecovered cost of Plant 1


### Crist's scrubber system are thus stranded, 2


### negatively impacting Gulf Power's customers. EPA 3


### must reassess its stringent proposal to 4


### specifically avoid stranded investments and 5


### existing generation assets. 6


### Lastly, EPA's guidelines under Section 7


### 111(d) of the Clean Air Act can only be based on 8


### technologies that can be implemented at an 9



### individual source or inside the fence. Three of 10



### EPA's so

- called building blocks, used to 11


### establish the proposal

-- best sy stem of 12



### emissions reduction

-- are clearly outside the 13



### fence and not controllable by any source that's 14


### regulated under EPA's proposed guidelines. 15


### The EPA's proposal is plainly 16


### inconsistent with the authority Congress provided 17


### the agency under Section 11 1(d). Through overly 18


### aggressive assumptions and interim targets 19


### approaching in 2020, EPA has eliminated the state 20


### of Florida's and Gulf Power's compliance 21


### flexibility. 22

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### Under this proposal, Florida State 1


### Implementation Plan would be due to EPA between 2



### J une 2016 and June 2018. EPA then has 12 months 3


### to review the state's plan. Possibly, only 6 4


### months after EPA approves Florida's plan, the 5



### state of Florida and Gulf Power will need to 6


### begin operating in a compliance mode to meet the 7


### proposed interim targe ts. EPA's compliance 8


### option simply cannot be implemented to the 9


### necessary levels in such a short time period. 10



### Because of the aforementioned concerns, 11



### Gulf Power requests that EPA re

- propose the 12


### guidelines that are consistent with the Clean Air 13


### Act, provi de the state of Florida compliance 14


### flexibility, recognize Florida's unique 15


### geographic constraints, and avoid stranded 16



### investments. 17



### Thank you. 18



### MS. TONEY: Thank you. Thank you, 19


### gentlemen. Our next speakers will be Matthew 20


### Bowden and Craig Stine, and the n we will take a 21


### very brief 5

- minute break. Matthew Bowden and 22

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### Craig Stine. Mr. Bowden? 1


### MR. BOWDEN: Good morning. My name is 2



### Matt Bowden and I serve as Vice President of 3


### Environmental Affairs at Alabama Power Company. 4



### B

- o

- w

- d

- e

- n. Our company is the largest 5


### electricity supplier in Alabama, with 1.4 million 6



### customers. Through 2013, Alabama Power has 7


### invested more than $3 billion in environmental 8


### controls. Over the next 3 years, we will spend 9


### another $1 billion in order to comply with new 10



### federal envi ronmental rules. 11



### In a state with a median income of 12


### $42,000, we must be mindful that 19 percent of 13


### our customers live below the federal poverty line 14


### and have seen the unemployment rate rise an 15


### entire percentage point since the end of January. 16



### Alabama Pow er has three primary concerns 17


### in regards to EPA's proposed Clean Power Plan. 18


### First, EPA wrongly assumes that the state of 19



### Alabama can increase its in

- state renewable 20


### energy generation to a level that would satisfy 21


### North Carolina's renewable energy and ene rgy 22

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### efficiency portfolio standard. 1


### EPA plainly ignores the compliance 2


### options of North Carolina's program, which are 3



### not limited to in

- state renewable energy 4


### generation but include energy efficiency, demand 5



### reduction, and the utilization of out

- of

- state 6


### renewable energy credits. It is wrong for EPA to 7


### base its assumptions for Alabama's expected in

8


### state renewable energy generation levels on a 9



### standard that was not limited to renewable 10


### generation alone. 11


### Furthermore, the availability of 12



### renewable energy resources differs in every 13


### state. Alabama Power has rights to 400 megawatts 14


### of wholesale generation from wind farms in 15


### Oklahoma and Kansas, to use or sell in a way that 16



### is most economical for our customers, because 17


### wind generation on a large scale is simp ly not 18



### feasible in Alabama. 19



### EPA's proposal assumes Alabama can add 20



### in

- state generation from costly intermittent 21



### renewable energy sources by over 415 percent. 22

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### Meeting such a level would equate to the 1


### installation of over 5,000 megawatts of wind 2


### capacity , or 9,000 megawatts of solar capacity. 3


### Renewable generation on these scales, in the 4


### state of Alabama, is not practically, 5


### technically, or economically feasible. For 6



### instance, that amount of in

- state wind generation 7


### would require approximately 700 square miles of 8



### land, more than 1

- 1/2 times the size of Mobile 9



### Bay. 10


### In contrast, EPA's own supporting 11



### technical documents show that Alabama has minimal 12



### on

- shore wind resources, about 118 megawatts, or 13


### 2 percent of EPA's Alabama target. With regard 14



### to solar, t he land area required for 9,000 15


### megawatts of solar generation is more than the 16



### combined areas of the cities of Auburn and 17



### Tuscaloosa. 18


### My second point addressed is EPA's 19


### assumption that a portion of each state's nuclear 20


### capacity is at risk of retirement. For over 30 21


### years, however, Alabama Power's two nuclear units 22

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### at Plant Farley have operated safely, providing 1



### affordable carbon

- free electricity to our 2


### customers. Recently, both units, along with 3



### other nuclear units in the state of Alabama, 4



### received 20

- y ear operating license renewals, 5


### which clear indicate they are not at

- risk nuclear 6


### units. To generically include such an assumption 7


### in Alabama's emission rate goal calculation 8


### results in more stringent targets, thus limiting 9


### operational flexibility across the entire 10


### generation fleet. 11


### Lastly, the proposed guidelines exceed 12


### the authority Congress provided EPA under the 13


### Clean Air Act in three significant ways. First, 14


### guidelines must be based on the best system of 15


### emission reduction that is adequately 16



### demonst rated at covered sources, that is, inside

17



### the

- fence technologies. Second, EPA is proposing 18


### binding, state

- level goals. However, based on 19


### the Clean Air Act's plain language, only states 20


### have the authority to set performance standards 21


### for existing sources. 22

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### Third, EPA's proposal unlawfully dictates 1


### Alabama's future generation mix, without adequate 2



### consideration of state and local factors. 3


### Congress never intended for energy policy to be 4


### set through the Clean Air Act. This authority 5


### rightfully resides at th e state level, in the 6



### hands of elected officials, who understand local 7



### customer and economic sensitivities, and who are 8


### charged with the responsibility to make energy 9


### policy decisions. They understand how such 10


### decisions will affect the reliability and 11



### aff ordability of electric service for customers, 12


### and they are held accountable for the decisions 13



### they make. 14



### Alabama Power requests that the EPA 15


### withdraw the proposed guidelines because they do 16


### not reflect realistic assumptions, and they do 17



### not respect author ity reserved to states under 18



### the Clean Air Act. 19


### MS. TONEY: Thank you . Mr. Stine? 20


### MR. STINE: My name is Craig Stine, C

- r

21



### a

- i

- g S

- t

- i

- n

- e. I live in Greenville, South 22

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### Carolina. I am customer of Duke Power at my 1


### primary residence, and a Blue Ridge Elec tric 2


### Cooperative at a cabin I co

- own. I speak as a 3


### concerned citizen and as a parent of two young 4



### adult children. 5



### I am here because I strongly support the 6


### Clean Power Plan. I am here because particulate 7


### pollution from coal

- fired power plants damages 8



### t he health of millions of Americans and leads to 9


### premature deaths, because the combustion of coal 10


### emits pollutants that trigger asthma attacks and 11



### harm normal lung development. 12


### Because the Clean Power Plan is projected 13



### to reduce these pollutants by over 25 percent, I 14


### am here because I want my children and 15


### grandchildren to live in a world with healthier 16


### air to breathe. I am here because it is long 17


### past due for our country to take seriously the 18


### costly consequences of climate change and that of 19



### carbon emiss ions from power plants. 20


### The fifth and latest report from the 21


### Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change adds to 22

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### the overwhelming scientific evidence that burning 1


### fossil fuels is causing climate change, with 2


### carbon dioxide accounting for nearly three

3



### four ths of global greenhouse gas emissions. 4



### In the United States, carbon dioxide, a 5


### mix of 84 percent of all greenhouse gas 6


### emissions, and the biggest source of carbon 7



### emissions in the U.S. are fossil fuel

- fired power 8


### plants, which contribute one

- third of tot al 9


### greenhouse gas emissions. 10



### I am here because of what the 11


### consequences of climate change mean for my 12


### children and grandchildren. Already we see the 13


### more intense and severe droughts, wildfires, 14


### tornadoes, and hurricanes. According to the 15



### chief of the U. S. Forest Service, America's 16


### wildfire season lasts 2 months longer and burns 17


### up twice as much land than it did 40 years ago, 18


### because of the hotter, drier conditions produced 19


### by climate change. 20



### In 2012, climate

- related drought, 21


### superstorms, hurricanes, bli zzards, heat waves, 22

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### and wildfires killed 349 people and caused an 1


### estimated $140 billion in damages. The cost to 2


### the Federal Government was nearly $100 billion, 3


### more than the government spent on either 4


### education or transportation, and about $1,100 per 5



### Ame rican taxpayer. 6


### Due to climate change, sea levels are 7


### rising faster. Over the last 20 years, the 8


### average annual increase in relative sea level has 9


### been twice what it was for the previous 90 years. 10


### Our Atlantic and Gulf Coasts are among the areas 11


### seeing the highest increases. 12


### My daughter lives in Charleston, South 13


### Carolina. In just 50 years, the relative sea 14


### level along the South Carolina coast has risen 15



### about 6 inches. It is estimated that within 40 16


### years, the South Carolina coast is likely to see 17



### e xtreme floods more than 4 feet above high tide, 18


### resulting in billions of dollars in damage. 19



### I am here because the Clean Power Plan is 20



### a reasonable, cost

- effective way to reduce carbon 21


### emissions. States have flexibility in meeting 22

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### their individualized tar gets, targets based on 1


### each state's potential for alternative energy 2


### production and energy efficiency measures. 3



### And states have shown that they can 4


### rapidly reduce carbon emissions. In a recent 5



### submission to the EPA, 15 states laid out how 6



### they each red uced carbon pollution from the 7


### electricity sector by 20 percent in just 6 years, 8


### with some states achieving carbon reductions in 9



### the range of 30 to 46 percent. 10



### I am here because we have a choice. We 11


### can do nothing and just continue to spend 12



### taxpayer doll ars on Band

- Aids to clean up and 13


### rebuild communities devastated by the loss of 14


### lives, homes, and businesses from increasingly 15


### severe weather events and rising sea levels, 16


### costs that will continue to increase, topping an 17


### estimated $500 billion per year by 2 050. 18


### I am here because I want to prevent this 19


### damage, save lives, save taxpayer dollars, and 20


### reduce this burden for my children and future 21


### generations. I am here because, as a nation, we 22

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### can choose to spend our money wisely to make 1


### things better. 2



### The Cl ean Power Plan will lead to 3


### increased spending in renewable, cleaner, and 4


### more efficient energy technologies, investments 5


### that, over the long term, will reduce the 6


### devastating and costly impact of greenhouse gas 7


### emissions, investments that will benefit my 8


### children and future generations through higher 9


### economic growth and improved health. 10


### I am, according to a Washington Post 11



### poll, among the more than two

- thirds of Americans 12


### who support carbon pollution limits on power 13



### plants. I support the Clean Power Plan because I 14



### do not want to further endanger and burden my 15


### children, grandchildren, and future generations 16


### through inaction. I hope we will seize this 17


### opportunity to improve their lives by fully 18


### implementing the Clean Power Plan. 19



### Thank you. 20



### MS. TONEY: Th ank you. Thank you both, 21


### gentleman. At this time, we wanted to take a 22

OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 Washington: 202

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### brief 5

- minute break. It is 10:11 p.m. [sic]. 1


### We will come back at roughly 10:16, and we will 2


### recess until then. Thank you. 3



### [Recess taken from 10:11 to 10:16 a.m.] 4



### MS. BANISTER: Okay. We will be resuming 5


### the hearing, if everyone would please take their 6


### seats. Good morning. Good morning. I am 7


### Beverly Banister. I am the Air, Pesticides, and 8


### Toxics Management Division Director here in 9


### Atlanta, in EPA Region 4, and we will resume our 10


### hearing this morning. 11


### I would like to invite to the podium Roy 12


### Taylor and David Lambert. Roy Taylor and David 13


### Lambert. Thank you both for joining us this 14


### morning. 15


### MR. TAYLOR: Good morning. 16


### MR. LAMBERT: Good morning. 17


### MS. BANISTER: Good morning. Mr. Taylor, 18


### if you could start, if you could state your name 19


### and spell it for the court reporter, please. 20


### MR. TAYLOR: My name is Roy Taylor. 21



### That's R

- o

- y T

- a

- y

- l

- o

- r. 22

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### MS. BANISTER: Okay. You may begin. 1


### MR. TAYLOR: Good morning. Thank you for 2



### th e opportunity to present my testimony in 3


### response to the proposed EPA ruling. I come to 4


### you today wearing several hats. I am here as a 5


### grandfather with concerns for my family in the 6



### future. I am here as a lead accredited 7


### professional, a green architect with an 8


### understanding of the science that has led to this 9


### ruling. 10



### I am here as clerk of Quaker Earthcare 11



### Witness, the North American network of the 12


### religious society of Friends, with concerns for 13



### Earth and care for creation. It is from this 14



### Quaker pers pective that I present that we have a 15


### moral duty to take care of creation and preserve 16


### it for the future generations, as it is only 17


### loaned to us to use wisely while we are here on 18



### this Earth. 19


### Quakers are grounded in the values of 20


### simplicity, peace, integr ity, compassion, and 21


### equality. We are active in our public witness 22

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### and advocacy for a world that reflects these 1


### values. We offer testimony today. We, along 2


### with many faith traditions, recognize that 3


### climate disruption is one of the greatest 4



### challenges o f our time. We are deeply concerned 5


### about its impacts on vulnerable communities, 6


### ecosystems, and economies, on specific 7



### coexistence of humankind and on the future of our 8


### children and generations to come. 9


### Elite institutions in prominent sectors 10



### across the world find climate change to be a 11


### grave challenge requiring urgent action, 12


### including businesses like General Mills, Coca

13


### Cola, the U.S. military, NATO, IMF, and the World 14


### Bank. As Christine Lagarde, Managing Director of 15



### the IMF, said, "If we do not act, future 16


### generations will be roasted, toasted, friend, and 17


### grilled." 18



### It is also the concern of leaders of 141 19


### nations, including President Obama, who signed 20


### the Copenhagen Accord, which recognizes that the 21


### increase in global temperatures should be kept 22

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### belo w 2 degrees Celsius, requiring deep cuts in 1


### global emissions. To meet this goal, according 2


### to the International Energy Agency, at least two

3


### thirds of the world's proven fossil fuel reserves 4


### must be kept in the ground. 5



### This is one of the clear measurable, 6


### daunting challenges of our time. The global 7


### community has yet to embrace this challenge. 8


### That is why we are so grateful the EPA has taken 9


### this monumental and courageous step through the 10



### carbon power plan. 11


### I need to refer, just a moment, to

-- 12



### At the s ame time, we also urge that the 13


### rules step more firmly into this challenge, for 14


### the science joins with faith in affirming the 15


### dignity of every human person in our collective 16


### care for creation. As Pope Francis has said, "If 17


### we destroy creation, it will des troy us, so we 18



### must cherish it in ourselves." 19


### From a policy perspective, then, we 20


### should take this opportunity offered by the 21



### carbon power plan to support energy sources and 22

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### strategies from cradle to grave, adhere as 1


### closely as possible to the following c riteria: 2



### emit little or no carbon dioxide and other 3


### greenhouse gases; do not have negative impact on 4


### human health, communities, and ecosystems; and 5



### are cost

- effective and create long

- term economic 6


### and job growth. 7



### In other words, what are the human, 8



### soc ial, ecological, and economic costs and 9


### benefits of the various options EPA offers to the 10


### states, as well as their respective abilities to 11


### reduce carbons? It is through this lens we hope 12


### the final rule has a different menu of options 13



### for states. I wish t o highlight a few points 14



### which will be elaborated in our written comments. 15


### We question the proposed rule to support 16


### natural gas. Recent studies indicate methane 17


### pollution may make natural gas just as bad for 18


### the climate as coal, including underestimation of 19


### the amount of leakage, which would undermine the 20


### 36 percent of the climate benefits derived from 21



### the plan. 22

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### The economic, environmental, and health 1



### costs of nuclear energy, from cradle to grave, 2


### are too costly. Extraction of nuclear fuels is 3



### costly. Over the

-- is that a time limit? 4



### MS. BANISTER: Yes. You can go ahead and 5


### just wrap up. 6


### MR. TAYLOR: Okay. I will conclude for 7


### you everything in my written comments, but would 8


### like to highlight that energy efficiency is the 9


### optimal choice for most sta tes. It is the 10


### cheapest and greenest unit of energy, is the unit 11


### of energy that is not used. Costs are reduced, 12


### reduction targets are met, and jobs are created. 13


### A recent study by the American Council for Energy 14


### Efficient Economy finds that the deploymen t of 15


### existing energy efficiency policies can help 16


### states meet a large percentage of their emission 17


### reduction targets will creating over 600,000 jobs 18



### nationwide. 19


### Thank you for the opportunity to present 20



### this. 21


### MR. BANISTER: Thank you, sir. We 22

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### appreciate your comments. Yes. Would you state 1


### your name and spell it for the reporter? 2


### MR. LAMBERT: Good morning and thank you 3


### for the opportunity to comment. My name is 4



### David, D

- a

- v

- i

- d, Lambert, L

- a

- m

- b

- e

- r

- t, and I 5


### am the Manager of Member Relations at 6



### Withl acoochee River Electric Cooperative. I'm 7


### here before you representing our nine

- member 8


### board and our General Manager, Mr. Billy Brown, 9


### and the cooperative members within our five

10


### county service territory in the state of Florida. 11


### We appreciate the EPA hold ing these hearings and 12


### providing this public forum to answer any 13


### questions that we possibly may give to you in the 14


### future, and extending this comment period for 120 15


### days, so the people's voice can be heard. 16


### I stand before you as the voice of the 17



### common co nstituent who has concerns with the 18


### potential impact of this plan. WREC is a not

19



### for

- profit electric cooperative that serves half 20


### a million members on Florida's central gulf 21


### coast. The cooperative was formed in 1941, when 22

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### a group of like

- minded farmers s et out to improve 1


### the quality of life and bring economic 2


### opportunity to rural areas by building an 3


### electric distribution system from scratch. In 4


### the early days of the cooperative, we had many 5


### challenges. This like

- minded group of people 6



### fought through a world war, and building our 7


### system to improve the quality of life in rural 8



### America. 9


### But today we face a different challenge. 10


### Our member owners are not faced with building an 11


### electric distribution system from scratch or a 12



### world war. Rather, due to increa sed economic 13


### pressure and government regulations, they are 14


### facing electricity becoming a luxury, not the 15


### necessity that it is today. 16


### I offer you some statistics from our 17



### members. From July 1, 2013, to June 30, 2014, 18



### WREC has had 105,937 notices of intent to 19


### disconnect the service for members failing to pay 20


### their electric bill. Under this plan, costs will 21


### certainly rise. This number does not include the 22

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### number of the members that we extended their bill 1



### in order to avoid disconnection of service. 2



### The Fed eral Government is very familiar 3


### with the problems people face when it comes to 4


### paying electric bills. In fact, in the fiscal 5


### year 2014, under Title XXVI of the Omnibus Budget 6


### Reconciliation Act of 1981 (public law 97

- 35), 7


### Congress appropriated $3.5 billi on for Low Income 8


### Home Energy Assistance Program, or the LIHEAP 9


### Program, which provides low

- to no

- income 10


### families assistance with their utility bill. This 11



### is critical because millions more Americans are 12


### going to need this type of assistance. 13



### The Federal Government is also aware of 14


### the fragile state of our economy. According to 15


### RealtyTrac, as of June 2014, Florida is the 16


### leading state of foreclosures, with 1 in every 17


### 436 houses receiving foreclosure filings. This, 18


### coupled with a 6.3 percent statewide une mployment 19


### rate, of a state that has nearly 20 million 20



### residents

-- this number doesn't include the 21


### people that have given up looking for work

-- 22

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### this plan will only add to the financial stress 1



### and burden on our families and communities. 2



### Within WREC's five

- county service territory, one 3


### of our counties, Hernando, is among the highest 4


### employment rate of all 67 counties. They have 5



### 9.3 percent unemployment. 6



### In a recent communication from one of our 7


### members, the Abercrombie family writes: 8



### "Dear WREC. We ar e two senior citizens, 9


### retired disabled nurses living on a fixed income 10


### through Social Security. We reside in Lacoochee, 11


### a very poor rural community in Pascoe County. 12


### We're very scared about the possible increases of 13



### WREC's rates due to the EPA's regulat ions. My 14


### partner and I spend the majority of our fixed 15


### income on doctor visits, prescriptions, and bills 16


### such as electricity. The slightest increase in 17



### our bills, to include our electric bill, will 18



### force us to choose between our medicine, doctor's 19



### visits , or keeping the lights on. 20


### "Please do everything you can and tell 21



### the EPA that many of us cannot afford the 22

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### smallest increases, and that these new rules will 1


### certainly impact disabled seniors and others 2


### dramatically. Thank you for your time. 3



### Sincerel y, the Abercrombies." 4


### The Abercrombies' story is not uncommon 5


### and it's something our members face every day. 6


### According to the 2010 U.S. Census, WRAC serves 7


### 241,840 seniors, with a large portion being on 8


### fixed income. As per the Meals on Wheels 9



### Associati on of America, one in six seniors in the 10


### nation do not know where they're going to get 11



### their next meal, or where their next meal will 12


### come from, and with more than 500,000 being the 13



### men and women who served our country, our 14



### veterans. 15



### In Florida, 731,703 seniors are 16


### struggling with hunger, with only 9 percent, or 17


### 63,804 of them, receiving support from federally 18



### funded Older Americans Act nutritional services 19



### such as

-- I'm almost finished

-- such as Meals 20


### on Wheels. Of those clients receiving nutrition 21



### s upporting services, 19.4 percent live in rural 22

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### communities, which we primarily serve. 1


### Unfortunately, since fiscal year 2009, Florida's 2


### nutrition programs have lost federally 3


### appropriated funding by 9.1 percent, drastically 4


### increasing the underserved senio rs not receiving 5



### assistance. 6



### As a not

- for

- profit electric cooperative 7


### owned by those we serve, WREC does all it can do 8


### to assure affordable costs during these tough 9


### economic times, while remaining good stewards of 10


### the environment, investing in energy effi ciency 11


### programs. For example, our Voltage Conversion 12



### Program saved enough energy to power 22,000 13


### homes, achieving a peak demand reduction of 190 14


### megawatts and an annual energy reduction of 15



### 305,000 megawatt

- hours. We did this by 16


### increasing the basic insul ation level of our 17


### power lines, which allowed us to double the 18


### voltage, cutting the line loss in half. 19



### We also regularly conduct free home 20


### energy audits to our members, including 21


### businesses within our service territory, and have 22

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### given away 30,000 compact fluorescent light 1



### bulbs. 2



### In conclusion, our mission at WREC is to 3


### provide affordable, reliable electric service. 4


### We have survived creating an electric 5


### distribution from scratch and faced many 6



### challenges to date. Today, the Clean Power Plan, 7


### with its pro posed changes and upgrades at this 8


### time, coupled with stagnant wages, high 9


### unemployment, and escalating costs for everyday 10


### goods and services will increase the cost of 11


### electricity significantly and make the necessity 12


### of electricity a luxury for many. 13



### Than k you for your time and listening to 14



### our concerns. We hope you reevaluate the Clean 15


### Power Plan, taking the above statistics into 16


### consideration, and ensuring that electricity is 17


### available and affordable for every American 18


### family. 19



### Thank you. 20



### MS. BANISTER: Thank you. Could you 21


### clarify, again, which counties your co

- op covers? 22

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### MR. LAMBERT: Pasco, Hernando, Polk, 1


### Citrus, and Sumter Counties, parts of those. 2


### MS. BANISTER: Okay. Thank you, sir. 3


### Thank you both. I would like to invite up Jeff 4



### Bowman, or Bowman, Romanous Dotson, R

- o

- m

- a

- n

- o

5



### u

- s Dotson, to come up, please. Hello. Welcome. 6


### MR. BOWMAN: Good morning. Thank you. 7


### MS. BANISTER: Good morning. Good 8


### morning, sir. If you could just state your name 9


### and spell it for the court reporter, and the n you 10


### can begin. Thank you, sir. 11



### MR. BOWMAN: Okay. Thank you. My name 12



### is Jeff Bowman, B

- o

- w

- m

- a

- n, and I'm the Chief 13


### Legal and Communications Officer for South 14


### Mississippi Electric Power Association. 15


### South Mississippi Electric is a wholesale 16



### power pr ovider to 11 electric distribution co

17


### ops, all of which are located in the state of 18


### Mississippi. We are headquartered in 19


### Hattiesburg, Mississippi, and provide, through 20



### our 11 distribution members, electric service to 21



### more than 417,000 homes, businesses, a nd 22

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### industries in 55 of Mississippi's 82 counties, 1



### which is a little over half the state's land 2



### mass. 3


### South Mississippi Electric uses a mix of 4



### coal, natural gas, nuclear energy, and 5


### hydroelectric power to produce electric energy. 6


### In 2013, coal comprised 38 percent of the fuel we 7


### used to produce electricity to serve our members' 8


### needs. In 2012, Mississippi had the 15th lowest 9


### carbon intensity rate among the states, yet under 10



### the EPA's proposed Clean Power Plan, 11


### Mississippi's carbon intensity reduction go als 12


### are among the harshest, requiring a 62 percent 13



### reduction from the so

- called 2005 baseline year. 14


### EPA's rule for existing power plants 15



### assumes that our coal

- fired facility, which is 16


### Plant Morrow, located in Purvis, Mississippi, 17


### would no longer dispatc h due to economics. Since 18


### 2010 alone, we have spent more than $65 million 19


### in pollution control equipment at Plant Morrow to 20


### address previous EPA regulations, and additional 21


### pollution control equipment tests are currently 22

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### in process to comply with the MATS rule. If coal 1


### is eliminated from the resource mix, as proposed 2


### by the Clean Power Plan, these investments will 3


### become stranded costs, borne by Mississippi 4


### residents without any corresponding benefit. 5


### Additionally, in 2012, we invested over 6


### $77 million i n Grand Gulf Nuclear Station's 7


### extended power upgrade, which secured 18 8


### megawatts of additional emission

- free capacity 9


### and energy. However, no credit is allowed by EPA 10


### for this investment by our members. 11


### In Building Block 1 of the Clean Power 12



### Plan, the a dministration makes the assumption 13


### that a 6 percent efficiency improvement is 14


### possible with all existing units, and such is not 15


### realistic for our coal plant. In Building Block 16


### 2, the EPA suggests that dispatching natural gas 17


### combined cycle units up to a 7 0 percent capacity 18



### factor to further reduce carbon emissions. As 19


### owners of significant combined cycle capacity, we 20


### have never been able to economically dispatch our 21


### units to achieve more than a 32 percent capacity 22

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### factor, regardless of fuel prices. These 1


### machines were never intended, nor designed, to be 2



### a long

- term, base

- load resources, as EPA 3



### suggests. 4


### In Building Block 3, the EPA makes 5


### unrealistic assumptions for renewables. 6


### Mississippi averages 52 inches of rain per year, 7



### and the wind is intermittent at best during peak 8


### load seasons. No significant renewable 9


### generation has been built in Mississippi other 10


### than biomass, due to the prevailing weather 11


### conditions in the state, so the assumption by the 12


### EPA that Mississippi can achieve a 10 percent 13



### renewabl e energy standard seems arbitrary, and 14


### it's certainly unsupported by the actual facts. 15


### South Mississippi Electric has been 16


### involved in energy efficiency with our members 17


### since 1988. Again, though, EPA gives no credit 18


### for these early programs. Significan t future 19


### energy efficiency measures are not likely without 20


### massive investment in newer housing. 21


### We saw significant energy efficiency 22

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### improvement after Hurricane Katrina, when, 1


### unfortunately, thousands of housing units were 2



### destroyed. However, they were replaced with 3



### newer energy

- efficient houses that contained 4



### newer energy

- efficient appliances. That 5


### improvement was not possible, though, without a 6



### massive federal assistance. A similar federal 7


### program will be necessary in Mississippi to move 8



### us further forward, considering the high 9


### percentage of manufactured housing we have in our 10



### state. 11



### Our members serve some of the poorest 12


### areas in Mississippi, which means they serve some 13


### of the poorest in our country. These folks 14


### already pay high energy costs, due t o high 15


### consumption for air conditioning, and can least 16


### afford the increased energy cost that will 17


### necessarily result from the Clean Power Plan. 18


### Yet the EPA's proposed rule results in taking a 19


### state that is already relatively low in CO2 20


### output due to inves tments and efforts already 21


### made, and penalizes it with one of the largest 22

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- 337691



### CO2 reduction mandates. 1



### Whatever the models are based on, they 2


### are clearly flawed with respect to Mississippi, 3


### and we respectfully submit that they need to be 4



### reworked by the EPA, as this is not just an 5


### absurd result. It is terribly unjust to impose 6


### these additional costs on Mississippi residents 7


### who have paid already, and are continuing to pay, 8


### to lower their carbon output. 9


### Thank you all very much for your time. 10



### MS. BANISTER: Thank you, sir. Mr. 11



### Dotson? 12


### MR. DOTSON: My name is Romanous Dotson. 13


### I am the general manager of Altamaha EMC in 14


### Lyons, Georgia. Romanous, R

- o

- m

- a

- n

- o

- u

- s, 15



### Dotson, D

- o

- t

- s

- o

- n. 16



### Altamaha is a not

- for

- profit distribution 17


### cooperative located in southea stern Georgia. We 18


### own and maintain approximately 3,300 miles of 19


### distribution line and serve approximately between 20


### 19,000 and 20,000 meters at any time. As a side 21


### note, I wanted to share just a little bit about

- 22

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### - I've heard many things about the impact o n the 1


### environment about where I live and where I grew 2


### up, and this is actually not part of my script 3


### but I actually live within 10 miles of Plant 4


### Hatch. I actually grew up within just a sight of 5


### the buildings. You could see the buildings from 6



### where I wor ked, as a young man, in the 7


### agricultural industry. You could see the 8


### buildings on the plant. 9


### As an observation, when I grew up, there 10



### was no white

- tailed deer in our area. If you saw 11



### a white

- tailed deer, you would've had to go to 12



### the coast or Fort Stewa rt or somewhere that was 13



### much more lower than we were and much more 14


### woodland. No turkeys, no wild turkeys. I do not 15


### see the impact of the environment on

-- white

16


### tailed deer is now a problem. Wild turkeys are 17


### anywhere. I mean, you can see them crossing the 18



### county

- maintained highways in the lower

- lying 19



### areas. I see our wildlife as abundant. 20


### Again, I live within 10 miles of Plant 21


### Hatch, and have for almost all my life. I live 22

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### within 50 miles of a recycled paper mill in 1


### Dublin, Georgia, SP Newsprint. They use coal to 2



### produce recycled paper and have for years. I 3


### live within 80 miles of Union Camp in Savannah. 4



### I've seen no long

- term health effects to me or my 5


### family, and if I had, I would've moved to 6



### somewhere else. So, as a note to that, I have 7



### not seen anything but a constant change to the 8


### good in my world. 9



### Now, EPA's proposal

-- back to why we're 10


### here, I want to speak in opposition, naturally, 11


### to EPA's new guidelines and proposals. I see 12


### this as causing a dramatic shift in the way 13


### electricity in Georgia will be generated and 14


### used. In order for these guidelines, coal

- fired 15


### power plants that we depended on this past winter 16


### for our coldest days, those plants will have to 17



### be shut down. 18


### Shutting down those plants will actually 19



### cause us to have, bui ld more gas

- fired plants, 20


### just like there was in Mississippi, and it also 21


### will cause an increase demand in gas. Well, this 22

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### increased demand for gas will require new 1



### investments, new infrastructure for American and 2


### Georgia families. They'll have to make 3



### s ignificant financial investments, or either 4


### their light bills will increase so much they'll 5


### have to reduce their energy usage. 6



### Many of our members already struggle to 7


### pay their bills and live with minimal 8


### conveniences. Again, Altamaha serves probably 9



### som e of the lower

- income families, and probably, 10



### as most EMCs do, we serve the lowest

- income 11



### families in the state. 12



### Beyond my concern for the amount the 13


### members are paying for their electricity is the 14


### way Georgia is being treated in comparison with 15



### other sta tes. This rule does not provide for 16


### equitable spread of the burden across all states. 17


### Between 2005 and 2012, Georgia reduced its CO2 18


### emissions by around 30 percent, but under this 19



### rule, between 2012 and 2030, our state will be 20


### required to reduce its emis sions another 44 21


### percent. This is the sixth

- largest reduction of 22

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### all states. Other states, which have been much 1


### less proactive than Georgia in the past are being 2


### required to do much less. 3



### Another factor in the unfairness of 4


### Georgia is how the rule ignor es our efforts in 5


### building two new emission

- free nuclear plants. 6



### Under construction, nuclear should not be 7


### included in the calculation for state goals. 8


### EPA's inclusion of Vogtle 3 and 4, in setting 9


### Georgia performance standard, is unfair and 10


### misguided. 11


### Rather than rewarding states and 12


### utilities that are early movers in permitting and 13


### constructing the supported type of non

- emitting 14


### generation, EPA's inclusion of under

- construction 15


### nuclear in calculating state goals serves, 16


### instead, as a penalty. Specif ically, the 17


### electricity consumer of Georgia should not be 18


### penalized for stepping up and spending more than 19


### $14 billion on Vogtle 3 and 4. It's blatantly 20



### unfair. 21


### I urge the EPA to withdraw this proposal, 22

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### work with us on new common

- sense approaches that 1



### we treat all of the above energy strategies. 2



### Thank you. I'm sorry. 3



### MS. BANISTER: That's fine. That's fine. 4



### Thank you. Thank you both for your comments, and 5


### please submit additional comments as you have 6



### them. Thank you. 7


### I would like to invite up Dale Kemmerick 8



### and Evan Swaak, S

- w

- a

- a

- k. Thank you, sir, for 9


### being with us. If you would state your name and 10


### spell it for the court reporter, then you can 11


### begin. 12


### MR. KEMMERICK: Yes. My name is Dale 13



### Kemmerick. It's D

- a

- l

- e K

- e

- m

- m

- e

- r

- i

- c

- k. 14



### Okay. I'm a retired air pollution meteorologist 15


### from the Georgia Air Protection Branch of EPD. 16


### Let's keep this simple. The hotter the ambient 17


### temperature, the higher your summer electricity 18


### bill. If you control CO2 and lower the ambient 19



### temperature, or even preve nt further increase of 20


### the temperature, you reduce the air conditioning 21



### costs. 22

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### For example, I'd like you to see my last 1


### two July power bills. Everything was the same

-- 2


### the number of days in the billing, the same 3



### program on the thermostat, except that on e July 4


### was an average 6 degrees Fahrenheit hotter than 5


### the other. The bill for the hotter July was 92 6


### percent greater than the bill for the cooler July 7



### -- almost double, or over $105 that I saved for 8



### that one cooler month. This resulted in Southern 9



### Compa ny's third quarter revenue being down 12 10


### percent, and what was their excuse

-- and I 11



### quote? The latest quarter's results were 12


### negatively influenced by cooler than normal 13


### temperatures and unusually heavy rainfall. 14


### If you let Georgia Power keep pumping ou t 15


### CO2 from coal, and increasing the temperature, it 16


### is more revenue for them and higher bills for 17


### their customers. Since CO2 is a pollutant that 18


### produces harm, it should have been controlled at 19


### the start of the Clean Air Act. By delaying the 20



### cost of cont rol, EPA has incentivized and 21



### subsidized the overuse of carbon

- based fuels. 22

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### When you take away the subsidies, consider all 1


### the costs, and eliminate the voodoo accounting, 2



### coal has never been a cost

- effective fuel for 3


### electrical generation. 4



### First conside r the emission fees paid to 5


### state and local agencies. Before I retired, I 6


### personally accepted a check for over $900,000 7


### from Georgia Power courier, for a quarterly 8


### payment of their emission fees. If they relied 9


### on efficiency and certain emitting fuels, G eorgia 10



### Power customers could save millions of dollars in 11


### emission fees per year, and these emission fees 12


### that are due to coal will only increase when CO2 13



### is added to the list. 14



### Second, consider the environmental 15


### compliance cost. Each month on my Georgia P ower 16


### bill, it lists about $8.00 for those costs, just 17



### so they can burn coal. If, years ago, they had 18


### relied on natural gas as their base load, it 19


### would have saved me about $100 per year, because 20



### they would not have needed the SCR, the bag 21



### houses, and scru bbers, and the billions of 22

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### dollars in control equipment that the customer 1


### pays to subsidize the cost of coal. 2


### Third, the cost of ash ponds are not 3



### calculated in the cost of coal electrical 4


### generation. Ash ponds have high cost and 5


### threaten drinking water supplies. In Tennessee, 6


### the rupture of one ash pond cost $1.2 billion to 7


### clean up, and in North Carolina, Duke Power 8


### estimates it would cost $10 billion to properly 9


### dispose of the ash from their 14 sites. Each 10


### power company has billions and billions of f uture 11


### costs for ash ponds that are not accounted for in 12


### the cost of coal electrical generation. 13



### Fourth, the costs of climate extremes. 14


### Coal emits more CO2 than any other fuel, and 15


### therefore it produces higher average 16


### temperatures, which not only increases the cost 17


### of air conditioning, as I stated before, but 18



### contributes to other weather extremes, like 19



### storms and droughts. 20


### Finally, you will never hear the power 21


### companies talk about health costs to coal

- fired 22

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### EGUs, yet they know they significantly contribut e 1



### to the excessive cost of health care. John 2



### Jansen of Southern Company and Alan Hansen of 3


### EPRI, conducted a study called ARIES in Atlanta 4



### that showed a direct association or correlation 5


### between high pollutant concentrations and 6



### emergency health departmen t visits and mortality, 7


### and presented it to EPD. 8


### Yet, the power companies are not required 9


### to pay the hospital, the insurance companies, or 10


### the patients for the billions of dollars of costs 11


### caused by their emissions. We have a right to 12



### clean air. Powe r companies do not have the right 13


### to blow smoke and pollutants into our face and 14


### force us to pay for the resulting health costs 15



### they cause. 16


### One quick point. Yesterday I heard a lot 17


### about how power companies cannot use natural gas 18


### because the price is too volatile. They state 19


### that the price of gas shot up during the polar 20


### vortex last winter. I don't think they realize 21


### it but that is precisely the point. It wasn't 22

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### the production or supply of natural gas that 1


### caused the price increase, but the increased 2



### d emand because of the climate disruption. 3


### The polar vortex is a secondary jet 4


### stream near the Arctic Circle that normally keeps 5


### extremely cold air bottled up in the Arctic area, 6


### with zonal flow. When the climate is disrupted 7



### and the vortex is weakened, the cold air is able 8


### to escape the south, and we feel it. That is why 9


### many days there were much warmer temperatures in 10


### Anchorage, Alaska than Atlanta. I fail to see 11


### how the continued burning of coal will stabilize 12


### the climate. If you want stable gas pri ces, you 13



### need to stabilize the climate. 14


### MS. BANISTER: Thank you, sir. I 15


### appreciate your comments. Thank you. I would 16


### like to now invite up Mr. Randy Hill. 17



### [Inaudible comment.] 18



### MS. BANISTER: Well, you would have to 19


### speak to him offline. 20



### [Inaudible comment.] 21



### MS. BANISTER: No. I'm sorry. I'm 22

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### sorry. You would have to speak to someone

-- 1


### Rosalyn, can you hook her up with someone, or 2


### Jeanine, that she could get a response? Okay. 3


### Okay. So Mr. Randy Hill and Randy 4


### Morris. Are you in the room, Rand y Morris? 5


### Okay. All right. We'll call him up later. 6


### MR. HILL: I'm Randy Hill. I'm sorry. 7


### MS. BANISTER: Okay. Right. Thank you, 8


### Mr. Hill. Would you state your name and spell it 9



### for the court reporter, please? 10


### MR. HILL: Sure. My name is Randy H ill. 11



### That's R

- a

- n

- d

- y H

- i

- l

- l. 12


### MS. BANISTER: Thank you, sir. You can 13


### begin. 14


### MR. HILL: Thanks. Thank you for this 15


### opportunity today. I have been the Member 16


### Services Manager for the past 16 years and have 17


### more than 25 years of experience at Planters 18


### Electric Membership Corporation. Planters EMC 19


### serves about 16,000 meters in mainly Burke, 20



### Screven, and Jenkins Counties, but we also have 21


### meters in Bulloch, Effingham, Emanuel, and 22

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### Richmond Counties. We are in southeast Georgia, 1



### between Augusta and Savan nah. 2


### EPA, please do not implement this 3



### proposed rules of the Clean Power Plan. Planters 4


### EMC service territory covers a large part of 5


### rural Georgia, and many areas that, in the past 6


### few decades, have been struggling to survive in 7



### the face of a tough econo my and a constant 8


### increase in cost of goods. Jenkins County led 9


### the state with unemployment, over 20 percent, a 10


### few years ago. We've kind of dug out of that 11


### hole. We're now at 15 percent, still. As a 12


### nonprofit cooperative, any increase in energy 13



### costs will have to be passed directly to our 14


### members, many of whom just cannot afford 15


### increases in their energy cost. 16


### By reducing the overall amount of 17



### dependable, base

- load power generation, EPA is 18


### removing a vital safety net that prevents rolling 19



### blackouts in times of peak use. For example, on 20


### the morning of January 6th and 7th of this year, 21


### record low temperatures gripped the nation. 22

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### Georgia's electric cooperatives set an all

- time 1



### peak demands and usage for energy, and much of 2


### that demand happened in the predawn and early 3


### morning hours. The energy that met that peak 4



### demand was nuclear, natural gas, and coal. All 5


### conventional sources of energy were absolutely 6


### critical to ensure that we were able to keep our 7


### homes and businesses running. 8


### Lastly, we questi on whether EPA has the 9


### authority to regulate carbon dioxide under 10



### Section 111 of the Clear Air Act in the first 11


### place. At most, Section 111 may permit the EPA 12


### to provide guidance to the states on how to 13


### determine the best system of emissions reductions 14



### at each power plant, but this proposal will 15


### require sweeping changes to the electric utility 16


### industry. This proposal is basically granting 17


### the EPA limitless authority to regulate the 18


### entire economy and the lifestyles of every 19


### consumer in the country. 20



### The EPA must withdraw this proposal and 21


### come up with a new approach that falls within the 22

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### narrow scope of authority granted by Congress. I 1



### want to repeat

-- please do not implement these 2



### proposed rules of the Clean Power Plan. 3


### Thanks for the opportunity to speak 4



### today. 5


### MS. BANISTER: Thank you, Mr. Hill. We 6


### appreciate your comments. 7


### MS. MILLER: Can I ask a qualifying 8


### question? You were talking about the polar 9


### vortex back in January and you said that there 10


### was a peak. Sir, did you say that was an all

11



### ti me peak or a winter peak? 12



### MR. HILL: It set peak demands. 13



### MS. MILLER: Set peak demand for the all

14


### time peak, right? Is that what you were saying? 15



### MR. HILL: It was 19 degrees at my house 16


### and in south Georgia. It was really cold, and it 17


### was at night, so we had to use every available 18


### resource to make sure that we kept the lights on. 19


### The people in my area know me. We're more likely 20



### to meet a tractor on the road than a car. I 21


### mean, I drove up this morning. This is really 22

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### out of my environment with thi s many cars. We're 1


### rural, rural Georgia, and thank you again. 2



### MS. MILLER: Thank you. 3


### MS. BANISTER: Thank you. I would like 4


### to invite up Juanita Roark, R

- o

- a

- r

- k, and 5


### Katherine Mitchell. Thank you, ladies, for 6


### joining us this morning. Juanita, if yo u would 7


### state your name and spell it for the court 8



### reporter. 9


### MS. ROARK: Okay. Juanita Roark. J

- u

- a

10



### n

- i

- t

- a R

- o

- a

- r

- k. 11


### MS. BANISTER: You may begin. 12



### MS. ROARK: I am from Atlanta. I'm a 13



### mother, a grandmother, and I am concerned about 14


### the impact of cli mate change, not only just on my 15


### family but on humanity. So I am here in support 16


### of the EPA's plan to limit some of this existing 17


### power plant pollution. 18


### I have a slightly different outlook, 19


### probably, on climate change than most people 20



### here, because I've already lost a third of my 21


### property due to the rise of ocean waters. I 22

OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 Washington: 202

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### tried to plan for retirement, putting my savings 1


### into property, which seemed safe. You know that 2


### old saying

-- they ain't making beach property 3


### anymore? It was true until now. So on e

- third of 4


### my priority is now considered, by the government, 5


### as too dangerous to build on. It's being 6



### resurveyed and, unfortunately, there are 7



### structures there already

-- small, but they're 8



### there. 9



### Also, I have no assurance that the 10


### remaining two

- thirds o f that property will be 11


### considered large enough to build a home when I 12


### really need to retrieve that money for my nest 13


### egg. This does not mean that I'm bitter nor 14


### blaming. I'm willing to step up and take my 15


### share of the responsibility. I'm willing to do 16


### whatever cleanup is necessary to save our 17


### species. 18



### We all learned to clean up our own messes 19


### in kindergarten, didn't we? Well, in 20


### kindergarten, the paint spilled on the floor 21



### didn't affect a whole lot, but the mess we've 22

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### created now is affecting the wh ole world, so, one 1


### that may even affect the existence of our species 2


### on this planet. The planet itself will go on 3


### quite nicely without us, I'm sure, but I think, 4


### like all of us here, we'd really like to stick 5


### around and know that seven generations from no w 6


### we're still going to have a world for our 7


### posterity to enjoy. 8



### So, unfortunately, the U.S. has a 9


### wasteful and sometimes lavish lifestyle that is 10


### affecting the rest of the world. So, I'm pleased 11


### to see the EPA stepping up to the plate. Since 12


### electricity production by coal

- fired plants is 13


### the greatest source of CO2, according to the 14


### union of scientists, it seems logical that that's 15


### a good place to start in this reduction, so I 16


### applaud the EPA for taking the lead in addressing 17


### that responsibility. 18



### I also believe there's another greenhouse 19



### gas that's even more harmful

-- methane. The 20



### unfortunate truth of methane is that it is 34 to 21



### 86 times more harmful than CO2. So, if the 22

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### leakage is kept at between 1 and 3 percent, it's 1


### on a par with natural gas. But t hat balance of 2


### natural gas and coal, then, begins to fade very 3


### quickly when you go above that 3 percent. 4


### Unfortunately, private testing shows that there 5



### are places across our country that that 6


### percentage is 20 percent, way above 3. Even the 7



### leakage from distribution just in cities like 8


### Atlanta is a problem, and we're not really 9


### monitoring it. L.A.'s is 17 percent. 10


### So nuclear power, also, is not quite as 11



### safe as we were led to believe, nor even 12


### economically feasible, but one thing we do know 13



### is that co al is not safe for our atmosphere, nor 14


### our water, so this is a good place to start on 15


### our quest for making this a safer planet. 16



### So whatever it takes for us to evolve 17


### into using renewable energy seems most prudent, 18



### however uncomfortable. The fear associat ed with 19


### change is something we all understand. 20


### Retraining for a different type of job is 21


### daunting, but doable. As a nation, we've always 22

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### risen to the challenge. We see ourselves as a 1



### world leader, yet Germany and some other 2



### countries now seem to be lead ing. 3


### We think that we can adapt, but people 4


### don't seem to be adapting too well to this new 5


### mosquito

- borne virus, chikungunya. We just 6


### started hearing about it from our media in 7



### December, here in the States, but even since 8



### December, over 400,000 cases h ave been reported 9



### in Latin America and the Caribbean. Our warmer 10


### climate here is inviting those mosquitoes. Move 11


### in. Our warmer climate here is inviting more 12


### superstorms like Sandy. So all of us here, in 13


### this room, in this city, in this nation, may soo n 14


### feel the effect in a very physical way. 15



### I don't believe that we're insane, as 16


### Einstein pointed out, that we know we can't get a 17


### different outcome using the same methods. I 18



### trust that our great

- grandchildren will inherit a 19


### different, a more peaceful wor ld. Wars have been 20


### fought and are being fought today over fossil 21


### fuels. My vote is for peace, and for them, and 22

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### the planet. 1



### I'm grateful, so grateful, to the EPA for 2


### helping us become more responsible, and I thank 3


### you all for being here and caring. T hank you. 4



### MS. BANISTER: Thank you. 5


### MR. STENHOUSE: Thanks for your input. I 6


### wanted to ask, you mentioned some statistics 7


### about leakage rates, I think, of methane 8


### associated with natural gas production and maybe 9


### distribution. First of all, I think you said 10


### something about 1 to 3 percent being important

-- 11


### MS. ROARK: The equaling point. 12



### MR. STENHOUSE:

-- between

-- can you 13


### clarify? Equaling between what? 14



### MS. ROARK: Between gas and coal. 15



### MR. STENHOUSE: Okay. The greenhouse gas 16


### impacts of gas and coal. 17



### MS. ROARK: Yes. 18



### MR. STENHOUSE: And so, the other request 19


### is that, if possible, if you can include whatever 20



### sources you found that had some of those 21


### estimates you provided, either citations to those 22

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### sources or something from the source in whateve r 1


### you submit in writing, that would help us. 2



### MS. ROARK: I'll do that. Just off the 3


### top of my head, I know that it's Episode 6 of 4


### "Years of Living Dangerously" that gets into that 5


### specific. They show how they're actually testing 6



### and areas that they're t esting, and exact 7


### results. My understanding is that the EPA does 8


### not test for that, so it's taking a private 9


### testing to find out. 10



### MR. STENHOUSE: Okay. Thank you very 11



### much. 12


### MS. BANISTER: Do you have a clarifying 13


### question. Okay. Thank you so much. K atherine? 14


### MS. MITCHELL: Yes. My name is Katherine 15



### Mitchell, K

- a

- t

- h

- e

- r

- i

- n

- e, Mitchell, M

- i

- t

- c

- h

16



### e

- l

- l. I am from Atlanta, Georgia, and I'm a 17



### visual artist and retired teacher, but also, I'm 18


### a grandmother and I'm going to speak as a 19



### grandmother who w ould like for my grandchildren 20


### and their children to inherit a safe planet. It 21


### is imperative that we combat climate change, 22

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### which is a reality, and control emissions from 1



### current power plants. The EPA needs much more 2


### stringent regulations. We must reduc e emissions 3


### from electrical power, which comprise nearly 40 4


### percent of the country's emissions. 5


### If we do not combat global warming, it 6


### will have cataclysmic effects. It will ricochet 7



### through the economy, for the long term as well as 8



### the short term. It w ill effect our health and 9



### well

- being, our air quality, our food supply, our 10


### way of life. The battle against climate change 11



### is about all we can win, but not if we continue 12



### to delay. We need clean, renewable sources of 13


### energy. The technologies exist. The y must be 14


### implemented. 15



### I respectfully request that the EPA make 16


### four major changes to the proposed rule. First, 17


### there should be more stringent emission 18


### reductions, particularly from coal

- fired plants. 19


### Second, in addition to being more strict, the 20


### implem entation of these regulations should be 21


### sooner. Time is of the essence in this struggle. 22

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### Third, it is a mistake to encourage the 1


### use of natural gas as more than a transitional 2


### fuel, as we convert to clean, sustainable energy 3


### sources. Natural gas is not a clean fuel. It 4



### does release methane into the environment. Our 5


### time and effort should go into the development of 6



### sustainable, non

- fossil sources like solar, and 7


### there is a solar industry in Georgia, right here 8



### in the state. 9



### Fourth, I would like to r equest that the 10


### EPA encourage all states heavily reliant on coal, 11


### such as Georgia, to increase the proportion of 12



### energy from renewable sources, such as solar and 13


### wind. I am aware that nuclear energy also brings 14


### with it significant problems, not least is t hat 15


### there is no known way to safely dispose of spent 16



### fuel rods

-- not in Germany, not in Japan, not 17


### anywhere. These highly radioactive rods will 18


### present major problems for future generations. I 19



### would also prefer that we move away from the 20


### mining of urani um. 21



### In the past, the world has often looked 22

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### to the U.S.A. for leadership. We have a chance 1



### to be leaders in the move to clean, sustainable 2


### energy. There is no downside to our making these 3


### changes. Our future hangs in the balance. The 4


### economy will not survive our not acting. 5



### Thank you very much for your 6



### consideration and attention. 7


### MS. BANISTER: Do I have some clarifying 8


### questions? Okay. Thank you both. 9



### MS. MITCHELL: Thank you. 10



### MS. BANISTER: Okay. I want to do a 11


### quick check to make sure that R andall Morris is 12



### not in the room

-- Randall Morris

-- and also 13


### Evan Swaak. Just checking to see if either one 14


### of those persons are in the room. If not, we're 15


### going to take a 5

- minute break, and then we will 16



### return. Thank you. 17



### [Recess taken from 11:12 t o 11:20 a.m.] 18


### MS. BANISTER: We're going to go ahead and 19


### get started here, if everyone would please take 20



### their seats. 21


### I would invite Jenah Zweig to come up, Z

22

OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 Washington: 202

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### w

- e

- i

- g, and Bill Verner, V

- e

- r

- n

- e

- r, to join us 1


### at the front, on the podium. 2



### Thank you both f or joining us this 3


### morning. 4



### MR. VERNER: Thank you. 5


### MS. ZWEIG: Good morning. 6


### MS. BANISTER: Good morning. Jenah, we 7


### will start with you. If you would state your 8


### name and spell it for the court reporter, and 9


### then you can begin. 10



### MS. ZWEIG: Absolutely . Jenah, J

- e

- n

- a

- h 11



### -- it doesn't get easier

-- Zweig, Z, as in 12



### zebra

- w

- e

- i

- g. And organization, as well? 13



### MS. BANISTER: Yes. 14



### MS. ZWEIG: Okay. SEEA, the Southeast 15


### Energy Efficiency Alliance. 16


### MS. BANISTER: Okay. You can begin. 17



### MS. ZWEIG: SEEA is a nonprofit, 18


### nonpartisan organization that serves an 11

- state 19


### territory, from Virginia down to Florida, over to 20



### Louisiana, Arkansas, which includes all of EPA 21


### Region 4 and portions of Regions 3 and 6. SEEA 22

OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 Washington: 202

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### is also one of the six regional energy efficiency 1


### organizations and SEEA leverages its extensive 2



### network that includes utilities, trade allies, 3



### and manufacturers, to convene partners, 4


### strengthen policies and programs, and educate 5


### stakeholders. SEEA does not take a position on 6


### EPA's authority to issue 111 (d) draft guidelines. 7


### SEEA is here today to provide productive 8


### perspective on how EPA can facilitate energy 9


### efficiency as a compliance pathway. 10



### If the final rules move forward, SEEA 11


### requests that EPA provide more guidance on 12



### resources on (1) the kinds o f energy efficiency 13


### compliance options EPA would definitively accept 14


### as a component of compliance plans, and (2) how 15


### plans incorporating energy efficiency should be 16



### structured. 17


### EPA's currently proposed guidelines 18


### wisely include energy efficiency. However
, 19


### little to no guidance has yet been provided on 20


### how energy efficiency can be incorporated through 21


### potential mechanisms such as utility

- and state

22

OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 Washington: 202

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### funded programs, codes and appliance standards, 1


### and energy efficiency financing. Many key 2



### Southern stakehold ers have expressed a need for 3


### greater certainty when considering energy 4


### efficiency. 5



### EPA's assurance that it will be flexible 6


### with compliance plans, once submitted, is not 7


### enough. There is a deterrent to investment in 8


### new infrastructure to support energ y efficiency 9


### compliance without (1) the certainty that it will 10


### be included, and (2) guidance on how it will be 11



### included. 12


### In particular, utility energy efficiency 13


### protocols for evaluation, measurement, and 14


### verification, EM&V, has many years of tried and 15



### tr ue experience determining the impacts of energy 16


### efficiency, having been fully vetted within most 17


### public utilities commissions. States and the EPA 18


### do not need a duplicate EM&V infrastructure. 19



### However, the value of cost

- effective energy 20


### efficiency for util ity resource planning versus 21



### the value and cost

- effectiveness for emissions 22

OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 Washington: 202

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### are not the same. Moreover, scorekeeping of the 1



### emissions reductions attributable to end

- use 2


### energy efficiency is not nearly as well 3


### developed, and, in most cases, is quite 4



### unfami liar to regulators such as environmental 5


### protection agencies. 6


### Accordingly, EPA should develop tools to 7


### bridge this gap, such as deemed emissions values, 8


### a scoring system, or other quantification 9


### guidelines. For example, providing a tool 10



### comparable to the EPA Office of Transportation 11


### and Air Quality's Motor Vehicle Emissions 12


### Simulator, or MOVES, could help alleviate 13


### concerns that energy efficiency, EM&V, will be 14



### onerous and cost

- prohibitive. Most 15


### significantly, this would allow states to more 16


### confidently pursue energy efficiency as 17


### appropriate to their circumstances. 18


### Additionally, in the Southeast, where 19


### most southeastern utilities remain vertically 20


### integrated, incentive mechanisms will likely be 21



### needed to eliminate return

- on

- investment gaps 22

OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 Washington: 202

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### with energy e fficiency as compared to other 1


### capital investments. Accordingly, EPA should 2


### consider how their framework can encourage 3



### market

- based solutions to address the regional 4


### implications of state

- based plans, in light of 5



### ISO and RTO networks, multistate utilities , and 6


### the inherent interconnectedness of the grid. 7



### Without more resources to increase 8


### confidence and energy efficiency is an assured 9


### compliance option, southeastern utilities are 10


### less likely to incorporate energy efficiency as a 11


### part of their compliance p lans, foregoing the 12


### opportunity to secure these costs and resource 13


### and its many benefits. 14


### Providing guidance to encourage and set 15


### the stage for incorporation of energy efficiency 16


### into compliance plans has applicability far 17


### beyond 111(d). This process rep resents an 18


### unprecedented opportunity for energy efficiency 19


### to be comprehensively embraced as the least cost, 20



### multi

- pollutant solution, addressing not only CO2 21


### emissions but also facilitating compliance with 22

OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 Washington: 202

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### other environmental regulations such as SO2 and 1



### N Ox. 2


### To conclude, energy efficiency is a 3


### proven economic development tool. Energy 4


### efficiency enhances the reliability of the 5


### electric grid, reduces power sector risks, 6


### improves public health, and supports job creation 7


### and economic growth. With more gui dance and 8


### resources, energy efficiency can be equally 9



### effective emissions reduction tool. 10


### Thank you for your time. 11



### MS. BANISTER: Thank you. Do you have a 12


### clarifying question? 13



### MR. STENHOUSE: I do. I have one 14


### question. Can you clarify or elaborate a little 15


### on, when you say that a tool like OTAQ's MOVES 16



### would be useful here, what aspects or what 17


### characteristics are you thinking of? 18



### MS. ZWEIG: And that's really where we're 19


### at the beginning stages of looking at what the 20


### potential solutions are, but wh ere are 21


### opportunities to model and where EPA has already 22

OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 Washington: 202

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### done something like that, it means that there are 1


### inherent, connected opportunities that are worth 2


### exploring. 3



### MR. STENHOUSE: Okay. Thanks very much. 4



### MS. BANISTER: Thank you. 5



### MS. ZWEIG: Thank y ou. 6



### MS. BANISTER: Yes. You can go ahead. 7



### Just say your name for the court reporter, and 8


### spell it. 9


### MR. VERNER: Great. My name is Bill 10



### Verner. That's V as in Victor

- e

- r

- n

- e

- r, and I'm 11


### with Georgia Electric Membership Corporation. 12



### MS. BANISTER: Than k you. 13


### MR. VERNER: My name is Bill Verner and 14



### I'm Senior Vice President of External Affairs for 15


### Georgia EMC, the statewide trade association for 16



### the not

- for

- profit rural electric distribution 17


### and wholesale power supply cooperatives here in 18


### Georgia. I'm speaking on behalf of the more than 19


### 5,000 employees, 386 directors, and 4

- 1/2 million 20


### Georgians who get their electricity from one of 21


### our 41 power distribution cooperatives, or EMCs 22

OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 Washington: 202

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### as we call them here. 1


### We are deeply concerned about the impact 2



### of these r egulations and what they will have on 3


### our ability to provide safe, affordable, and 4


### reliable electricity to our members. Nationally, 5


### 93 percent of the worst persistent poverty 6


### counties are served by electric co

- ops. Right 7


### here in Georgia, 53 percent of Ge orgia households 8



### -- that's more than one

- half of the families in 9



### our great state

-- spend an estimated average of 10


### 22 percent of their after

- tax income on energy. 11


### Almost 1 out of every 10 households in 12


### Georgia, many senior citizens and others on fixed 13



### in comes, have an after

- tax annual income of 14


### $10,000, and these households spend a whopping 81 15


### percent of their annual income on energy. Our 16


### consumers simply cannot afford increased energy 17


### cost, especially when there is little, if any, 18


### corresponding environm ental benefit. 19


### Georgia's 41 EMCs are part of a network 20



### of more than 900 not

- for

- profit rural electric 21


### cooperatives that provide electric service to 22

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### over 42 million people in 47 states. Here in 1


### Georgia, those co

- ops provide electric service to 2



### almost half the state's population, as I said 3


### earlier, across 73 percent of our state's land 4



### area. 5



### In our state, it's no secret that the 6


### economy, while showing signs of recovery, remains 7


### hard hit by the recession, and our state's 8


### unemployment rate remains among th e highest in 9


### the country. Electric co

- ops already face higher 10



### distribution costs because of lower consumer 11


### density

-- about 10 customers per mile here in 12


### Georgia and less than that nationally

-- and our 13


### obligation to serve the last mile to make sure 14



### that everyone has access to electricity. 15


### Electricity generation costs account for 16



### two

- thirds of the total price of electric service 17


### that we provide to our members. Nationwide, the 18


### majority of electricity supplied to co

- op members 19



### comes from coal and natural gas power plants, 20


### because they are an important part of the base 21


### load of the 24/7, instantaneous, reliable power 22

OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 Washington: 202

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### our customers require and deserve. 1


### As you can imagine, we're concerned about 2


### how these new EPA regulations will impact these 3



### power plants a nd the resulting price of electric 4


### service that we provide to our members. That why 5


### we respectfully ask the EPA to withdraw this 6


### proposed rule and work with us on a true, all

- of

7



### the

- above energy strategy. 8



### While we're in the middle of an 9



### exhaustive anal ysis of the proposed rule, here 10


### are just two specific concerns. First, under 11



### construction, nuclear should not be included in 12


### the calculation of state goals. EPA's inclusion 13


### of Vogtle 3 and 4, in setting Georgia's 14


### performance standard, is unfair and misgu ided. 15


### Rather than rewarding states and utilities, like 16


### us here in Georgia, that are the early movers in 17


### permitting and construction for this important 18



### type of zero

- carbon emission generation, EPA's 19



### inclusion of under

- construction nuclear in 20


### calculating st ate goals serves, instead, as a 21


### penalty. Georgia utilities and our consumers 22

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### should not be penalized for stepping up and 1


### spending over $14 billion on Vogtle 3 and 4, 2


### which will provide the state 2,200 megawatts of 3


### power with zero CO2 emissions. This is b latantly 4



### unfair. 5



### Second, we're very concerned about the 6


### undeniable impact that EPA's Clean Power Plan 7


### will have on the cost of electricity to our 8


### member systems and their consumers. Over the 9


### last several years, for instance, Georgia co

- ops 10



### have invested around $1 billion on environmental 11


### control equipment at Plants Scherer and Wansley, 12



### which we co

- own with several other utilities, in 13


### order to comply with the existing EPA regs, 14


### which, importantly, this investment is using 15



### known technology at a known cost, yielding 16


### measurable benefits to the environment right here 17


### in Georgia. 18



### If EPA's Clean Power Plan, which the EPA 19


### itself acknowledges will have almost no benefit 20


### on global climate change, and some say may 21


### actually make global climate change worse, were 22

OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 Washington: 202

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### to be finalized as currently proposed, our 1


### consumers' $1 billion in capital investments for 2


### the compliance with existing EPA rules would have 3


### to be spread and recovered over significantly 4



### fewer megawatt

- hours, resulting in an increase in 5



### the cost of electric ity we generate, which is 6


### ultimately borne by our members. 7


### I'm speaking on behalf of our EMCs and 8


### member owners here in Georgia, but it's not just 9


### a job for me. My maternal grandfather was one of 10


### seven men that put up $1 each as a dairyman, to 11


### bring elec tricity to the consumers in the area 12


### around Walton County and Monroe, Georgia, back in 13



### 1936, and served as the co

- op's first board 14


### president. 15



### I grew up on a beef cattle and poultry 16



### farm served by a co

- op. We know that farmers, as 17


### they say, are the orig inal environmentalists. 18



### We're stewards of the land around us, and that 19


### commitment continues to this day with those that 20


### lead our state's electric cooperatives. 21



### Thank you very much. 22

OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 Washington: 202

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### MS. BANISTER: What area did you say that 1



### you covered, the EMC? 2



### MR. VER NER: In Georgia, we cover 73 3



### percent of the state's land area. We have 4



### consumers in all but 2 of the state's 159 5



### counties. 6



### MS. BANISTER: Thank you. 7


### MR. STENHOUSE: I have a question, as 8


### well. You mentioned, I think, that some say that 9



### the proposal may actual worsen global climate 10



### change. 11



### MR. VERNER: Yes. 12


### MR. STENHOUSE: Can you clarify who 13


### you've heard say that and what, how it is that 14


### they view the proposal worsening climate change? 15


### MR. VERNER: In fact, yesterday I believe 16



### there were comments from some elected officials 17


### here in Georgia and from the Consumer Energy 18


### Alliance. If you'll allow me to get back with 19


### you, specifically, on the names and the 20


### organizations, I will be happy to do so. But to 21


### elaborate on that, the assumption is that if we 22

OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 Washington: 202

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### do, in fact, reduce the use of coal to generate 1


### electricity here in America, that the export of 2



### coal to other countries around the world, and the 3


### use of coal, is only going to continue to 4


### increase, thereby, quite likely, increasing 5


### global CO2 emissions wi thout any measurable 6


### benefit here. Many of the countries using that 7



### coal also do not have the strict environmental 8



### controls we have here, so we would like the EPA 9


### to work with us on a solution that helps develop 10


### technology that we can roll out on a realis tic 11



### and achievable timetable. 12



### MR. STENHOUSE: Okay. Thank you very 13



### much. 14



### MS. BANISTER: Thank you both for your 15



### comments. 16



### MR. VERNER: Thank you. 17



### MS. BANISTER: I would like to now invite 18


### Ray Tidwell and Walter Parker. Thank you both 19


### for joining us t his afternoon. I can't read the 20



### shirts. We are one? 21



### MR. TIDWELL: We are one. 22

OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 Washington: 202

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### MS. BANISTER: Okay. Mr. Tidwell. Would 1


### you like to start? Just state your name as well 2


### as spell it for the court reporter. 3


### MR. TIDWELL: Yes. My name is Ray 4



### Tidwell. T

- i

- d

- w

- e

- l

- l. 5


### MS. BANISTER: You may begin. 6


### MR. TIDWELL: Good morning. I am a 7



### retired coal miner from a member of the United 8



### Mine Workers of Local 9511, from the state of 9


### Alabama. I have worked 33 years in the mines and 10


### have been retired for 5 years. I have been a 11


### member of the United Mine Workers for 39 years. 12


### I currently receive a pension and health 13



### care benefits from the UMWA Health and Retirement 14


### Funds, benefits that I have earned through many 15


### years of hard work. I think it's very important 16



### for everyone here to understand that the pensions 17



### and the health care benefits that I receive, that 18


### come with years of sacrifice, they are the 19


### promise of the collective bargaining agreements 20



### between the UMWA and the co

- operators, to provide 21


### economic security and health benefits to old 22

OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 Washington: 202

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### miners, when they retire from the industry. 1



### But the EPA proposal here before us 2


### today, it looks like that it's going to 3


### completely do away with my retirement and my 4



### health care, and one day, as you all grow older 5


### and your work i s done for the Federal Government, 6


### I hope you, too, can retire and enjoy the 7


### benefits of your hard work for the government. 8


### I basically just want you all to look at 9


### what all it's going to cost if you go through 10


### with your EPA. There's going to be thousand s 11



### lose their health care, lose their retirement. I 12


### heard through testimony yesterday that a lot of 13


### coal companies have went off and not done the 14


### reclamation work and made the country back 15



### livable and usable. 16


### The company I worked for is called 17



### Drummond Coal Company. I worked 27 years in a 18


### strip pit. When we got through, we went in and 19


### made it rolling hills, and I don't know the name 20


### of the hunting company but they put a hunting 21


### company out there. Hundreds have enjoyed that 22

OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 Washington: 202

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### property, hunting. Even fam ous athletes like Bo 1



### Jackson has come out there and hunt. 2



### I live on a 550

- mile lake in Curry, 3


### Alabama. It's called Smith Lake. For 20 years, 4


### there was a 1570 dragline ran right beside that 5


### Smith Lake. There's thousands enjoying that lake 6



### today. That m ine did not hurt that lake in one 7



### form or fashion. 8


### So, once again, when you make your 9


### decisions, I want you to really look at what 10


### you're going to cost in people's pensions, and 11


### what you're going to cost in people's health 12


### care, what all it's going to do. 13


### Also, I have a question for you all. As 14



### we set out to make better air for the whole 15


### country, are you going to be able to regulate all 16



### the new coal

- burning furnaces that's going online 17


### in Germany? Are you going to be able to regulate 18



### all of the new co al

- burning furnaces going online 19


### in China? Are you going to be able to regulate 20



### all the new coal

- burning furnaces that goes 21



### online in Mexico? 22

OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 Washington: 202

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### And with that I end my conversation. I 1


### thank you for your time. 2


### MS. BANISTER: Thank you, sir. Mr. 3



### Parker, w ould you state your name and spell it 4



### for the court reporter? 5


### MR. PARKER: My name is Walter Parker, P

6



### a

- r

- k

- e

- r, and I thank you for my time here. 7


### When I heard that the EPA was holding hearings 8


### about the Clean Power Plan, I immediately began 9


### trying to c ontact the agency in hopes of being 10


### able to speak against this rule. I feel that 11


### this rule, as written, is misguided. It punishes 12



### workers in the United States and does little, if 13


### any, for the environment. 14


### The rule proposed is to reduce carbon 15



### emission s globally by dismantling the American 16


### coal industry. I have to question why a U.S. 17


### agency like the EPA would ignore the evidence 18


### that India and China intend on ramping up their 19


### coal usage, regardless of what the United States 20


### does. They are increasing c oal mining and 21


### imports, and burning coal with few pollution 22

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### controls, at a rate that already far surpasses 1



### our country's usage. 2


### Maybe I should not be surprised. After 3


### all, the EPA has, for years, not hidden its 4


### intentions to shut down coal mining in this 5


### country, seeing our industry as obsolete, despite 6


### the thousands of Americans it employs, and now 7


### you expect us to go away quietly. I can assure 8


### you that will not happen. 9



### I have to ask

-- does EPA see all miners, 10



### regardless of facts to the contrary, as d irty 11


### polluters who must be eliminated? Many of your 12


### strongest supporters in the environmental 13


### movement do. Do you actually believe we spend 14


### our lives with our heads in the sand, not seeing 15


### what is happening around us? 16


### In the end, most people here will not 17


### wonder or care what happens to my wife and kids 18


### if I no longer have a job. No one is thinking 19


### about the burden my family and my coworkers will 20


### face if we no longer have a job, a steady 21


### paycheck, or if there are no more contributions 22

OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 Washington: 202

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- 445

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### to the UMWA Healt h and Retirement Funds. No one 1


### will care until the money runs out, and the 2


### government, which our administration is looking 3


### forward to, which is killing our jobs, must pay 4


### the price in unemployment benefits, welfare, and 5


### public assistant, which is running rampant in our 6



### country today. 7



### I am proud that I have been able to take 8


### care of my family because of the work I do. I am 9


### proud to be a miner. I have never asked for 10



### handouts from the people around me or from the 11



### government. I want to pay my own way. I want to 12


### work. I feel pride in my work. I want to be 13


### able to continue my profession and produce coal 14


### to power this nation, and I'm sorry that I get 15


### emotional but I can't help it. 16



### In the end, I don't see the agency's 17


### proposed policy as a real solution. W e will lose 18



### what we have worked for all of our lives and our 19


### communities will struggle in poverty. How can 20


### the EPA call this a success story? 21



### Thank you. 22

OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 Washington: 202

- 898

- 1108 • Baltimore: 410

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- 445

- 3376136



### MR. BANISTER: Thank you, sir. Do you 1


### all have any clarifying comments or questions? 2



### Thank you bot h for coming today. Thank you. 3



### I would now like to invite Vernon 4



### Bankston and MaKara Rumley, R

- u

- m

- l

- e

- y. Thank 5


### you both for joining us this morning. Mr. 6



### Bankston, would you please state your name and 7


### spell it for the court reporter? 8



### MR. BANKSTON: My name is Vernon 9



### Bankston. I'm a retired coal miner. It's 10



### spelled B

- a

- n

- k

- s

- t

- o

- n. I've been a member of 11


### the United Mine Workers since February 26, 1957. 12


### I was fortunate enough to work, lacking 2 months, 13


### 41 years in the coal mines. I had one injury. I 14



### had to have back surgery. I went back to work 15



### after I had the back surgery and never had 16


### another problem with it, due to the good medical 17



### care that we have. 18


### When you stop and think about all the 19


### things that's happening in this world today, you 20



### look aro und and you see the many, many people 21


### that are in want, and now we have a group of 22

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### people that's trying to shut down the livelihood 1



### of thousands of people. In the state of Alabama, 2



### from 1970 through 1977, I was employed by the 3



### United Mine Workers union. I was a district 4


### representative. I handled grievances and helped 5


### organize coal mines. During that time, in the 6


### state of Alabama, we had approximately 18,000 7


### working coal miners. Today, in the state of 8


### Alabama, we have less than 4,000 working coal 9



### miners

. 10


### When you stop and think about the things 11


### that have transpired and the things that have 12


### happened, we need to keep in mind that the 13


### livelihood of the working class of people in the 14


### United States of America is the most important 15


### thing that we have going, whether in the state of 16



### Alabama Senate or in the United States Senate and 17


### Congress. We need to remember the working people 18


### who are out there paying the taxes that keeps 19


### this country going. 20


### EPA is trying to do some things that's 21


### going to shut down a lot of plants. It's going 22

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### to eliminate a lot of jobs for a lot of working 1


### people. When you stop and think about

-- I've 2


### been a member of the Mine Workers 57 years. God 3


### blessed me with a daughter and a son. I tried my 4



### best to raise them in church. We still go to 5


### church. In fact, my son is a preacher. When we 6


### stop and think about all the things that's 7


### happened, we need to remember, it's the youth of 8


### this day that's important to this country. If 9


### the good Lord is willing, come November 6th of 10


### this year, I'l l be 79 years old. God's blessed 11



### me greatly. 12



### In 1996, they flew me from my hometown, 13


### well, from Jasper, Alabama, which is close to 14


### where I live, in a helicopter, to Birmingham, to 15


### the hospital, with a heart attack. They done 16


### five bypasses. I went bac k to the mines and 17


### worked a year after that. Due to the Mine 18



### Workers health care, you know how much that 19


### operation cost me? Not one penny. I kept up 20


### with it from the insurance company, when they'd 21


### send me statements showing what they had paid. I 22

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### was in the hospital for 8 days. The total bill

- 1



### - and this was in 1996

-- the total bill for that 2


### week's stay in the hospital at that time was 3


### $98,000, and I didn't have to pay a dime. 4



### When I go to the doctor today, because of 5



### the United Mine Workers Health and Retirement 6


### Fund, I pay a $12 copayment. When I go to the 7


### drugstore and get some of my medication that I 8



### have to have filled

-- I've got one medication 9


### that the doctor's got me on; I get them in 90 10



### days, for a 90

- day supply

-- that one 11


### prescription cos ts $700 and something. It costs 12


### me $5 out of my pocket, is what it's costing me. 13


### That's because of one thing, ladies and 14


### gentlemen, the United Mine Workers of America. 15


### We are out there for one reason, that is to give 16


### benefits to the working men and wo men that work 17


### in the coal mines of this great nation that we 18



### live in. 19


### I live right now

-- I can see two huge 20



### Alabama Power plant smokestacks from my house, 21


### where I live. One of them has been there as long 22

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### as I can remember, and the other one hasn't bee n 1


### there that long. It's practically new, but it's 2


### been there several years. But right now, the one 3


### that's been there for years is called the Gorgas 4


### Power Plant. Right now, the power company is 5


### spending $300 million to put the stuff that they 6



### need in the re to eliminate all this that's going 7



### out. 8


### We need to remember that not only will 9


### coal miners lose their jobs when this EPA thing, 10


### if it is approved and passed, and I'm begging you 11


### today, think about all the people that's out 12



### there. And I know the bell 's done rung for my 13


### time, but the wonderful part about the United 14



### Mine Workers

-- if I leave this walk of life, my 15



### wife will still be secure. She will draw 75 16


### percent of my pension that I'm drawing from the 17



### Mine Workers, and she will still have her health 18



### care and coverage that we have today. 19


### I thank you for the privilege of being 20


### here today. Remember one thing

-- what you do 21


### speaks so loud, I can't hear what you're saying. 22

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### Let that soak in for a little while. And one 1


### other thing

-- if you had the choi ce of living to 2


### be 75 or 80 years old and maybe die of some kind 3


### of lung disease, or live to be 20 years old and 4


### die of starvation, which would you take? 5



### Thank you very much. 6


### MS. BANISTER: Thank you, sir. Ms. 7



### Rumley? Would you state your name as well as 8


### spell it for the court reporter. 9



### MS. RUMLEY: Makara, M

- a

- K

- a

- r

- a, last 10



### name Rumley, R

- u

- m as in Mary

- l

- e

- y. 11


### MS. BANISTER: You may begin. 12


### MS. RUMLEY: Hello. My name is MaKara 13


### Rumley and I'm an environmental attorney working 14


### at GreenLaw, a nonprofi t environmental law firm 15


### here in the state of Georgia. Thank you for 16


### giving me the opportunity to share my comments 17


### with you today. 18


### Climate change is a nonpartisan, neutral 19


### phenomenon. The changes in climates are 20


### experienced by all of us equally, but its impact 21


### can be disparate. To address the existence of 22

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### climate change, you only have to talk to farmers 1


### in south Georgia, whose crops are affected by 2



### drought and low water levels, or see the ravaged 3


### neighborhoods of Hurricane Katrina and Hurricane 4



### Sandy to know that significant changes in our 5


### climate are occurring, not to mention the sound, 6


### internationally agreed upon scientific support 7



### for its existence. 8



### A new study by researchers at the 9


### University of Minnesota have uncovered a 10


### disquieting racial gap when it comes to exposure 11


### to air pollution. By examining air pollution 12


### exposure across racial, economic, educational, 13


### and other relevant categories, researchers 14


### realize that race and income have the greatest 15


### impact on exposure, with people of color being 16


### exposed to 38 percent more outdoor nitrogen oxide 17


### from vehicle exhaust and power plants than their 18


### white counterparts. Exposure to pollution has 19


### been linked to higher rates of asthma, heart 20



### disease, and even death. 21


### The focus of my work is to use the law to 22

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### help reduce the disproportionate exposure to 1


### pollution that minority and low

- income Georgians 2


### experience. The proposed plan must consider the 3


### principles of environmental justice and climate 4


### justice for guidance. This analysis should be 5



### made mandatory for the state implementation 6


### planning process. The EPA should not miss the 7


### opportunity to put some enforceability into the 8



### intent of Executive Order 12898. 9


### To that end, the environmental justice 10


### analysis can only be executed if there are 11



### environmental justice leaders and advocates 12


### participating in the state implementation 13


### process. Currently, this plan is slanted towards 14


### cap and trade being the most viable option to 15


### meet carbon emissions. That approach will be 16


### beneficial on a global scale, once achiev ed. 17


### Keeping that in mind, if cap and trade is 18


### implemented, there must be controls integrated 19


### into the process to make sure that total 20



### reductions in carbon dioxide don't lead to 21


### disparate impacts of other pollution, like 22

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### sulfur, oxides, nitrogen oxides, an d particulate 1


### matter, in environmentally stressed communities. 2


### A possible solution could be to create an 3


### emissions or operating threshold that would 4


### mandate additional monitoring of any fossil fuel 5


### unit under this proposed plan, to make sure that 6



### our envi ronmentally sensitive communities do not 7



### have to absorb the local burden of increased 8



### emissions while overall emissions have decreased. 9


### We must not ignore the impact of other 10


### operations that cause greenhouse gas emissions, 11


### such as biomass gas

- to

- energy pr ojects. These 12


### facilities create a significant amount of 13


### emissions and are also largely housed in 14


### communities of color across the country. 15


### Citizens are suffering from the polluted air that 16


### they have no choice but to breathe. Let's close 17


### the climate gap b y coordinating reductions in 18


### greenhouse gas emissions with opportunities to 19


### reduce toxic pollutants in neighborhoods with the 20



### dirtiest air. 21


### I applaud the EPA's courageous effort in 22

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### taking the first step towards urging the United 1


### States to do our part in r educing carbon 2


### emissions that ultimately helps the entire 3


### planet. The opposition will press the business 4


### argument, stressing government intervention on 5


### free enterprise and that people will lose jobs. 6



### In your resolve to create a reasonable and 7


### effective p lan, please remember that people are 8


### losing lives. 9



### Thank you. 10


### MS. BANISTER: Thank you. Any clarifying 11


### comments or questions? Thank you both for coming 12



### today. Thank you for your comments. I would now 13


### like to invite Vicky Sullivan and Jacqueline 14



### Patt erson to the podium. 15


### Thank you both for coming this morning. 16


### Ms. Sullivan, we're going to start with you. If 17


### you would state your name and spell it for the 18



### court reporter, please. 19


### MS. SULLIVAN: Sure. My name is Vicky, 20



### V

- i

- c

- k

- y, Sullivan, S

- u

- l

- l

- i

- v

- a

- n. I am 21


### Associate Vice President for Policy Analysis at 22

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### the American Coalition for Clean Coal 1


### Electricity. Our members include investor

- owned 2


### utilities, rural electric cooperatives, coal 3


### producers, railroads, and manufacturers that are 4


### involved in pro viding affordable and reliable 5


### electricity for coal. Because of its many 6


### serious flaws, ACCCE urges EPA to withdraw its 7


### proposal. I will highlight a few of these flaws 8


### briefly in the short time available. 9



### First, the Clean Air Act does not allow 10



### EPA to r egulate greenhouse gas emissions from 11


### existing coal

- fired power plants under Section 12



### 111(d) because coal

- fired power plants are 13


### already regulated by EPA under Section 112 of the 14


### Clear Air Act. Recently attorneys general from 15



### nine states filed an amicus br ief to stop EPA's 16


### proposal for this very reason, stating that the 17


### proposal violates the literal terms of the Clean 18



### Air Act. 19



### Even if EPA believes it has the basic 20


### authority to regulate, Section 111(d) allows EPA 21


### to set emissions standards based solely on 22

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### emission reductions that can be achieved inside 1


### the fence. However, this proposal requires 2



### substantial reductions outside the fence. Last 3


### year, before the proposal was issued, attorneys 4



### general from 17 states warned EPA that the agency 5



### does not have aut hority to require emission 6



### reductions outside the fence. 7


### Second, EPA's proposal will cause 8


### unacceptable economic impacts, including higher 9


### energy prices. ACCCE sponsored extensive 10


### analysis of an NRDC proposal, which served as the 11


### blueprint for EPA's prop osal. Our analysis 12


### projected, among other impacts, double

- digit 13


### electricity price increases in most states and 14


### substantial increases in natural gas prices 15



### nationwide. 16


### Higher energy prices have a 17


### disproportionately greater impact on lower

- income 18



### and mid dle

- income families. Lower

- income 19


### families are especially vulnerable to higher 20



### energy costs because energy represents a larger 21


### portion of their budgets and reduces the amount 22

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### of income they can spend on food, housing, health 1



### care, and other necessities. It is also worth 2


### noting that states with carbon constraints are 3


### already experiencing significantly higher 4


### electricity prices. 5


### Three months ago, electricity prices in 6


### California were 17 percent higher than the 7


### national average. In the New England states
, 8


### part of the Regional Greenhouse Gas Initiative, 9


### had 52 percent higher electricity prices. 10


### Third, EPA has proposed to substitute its 11


### judgment for that of public utility commissions, 12


### utility companies, grid operators, and consumers 13


### across the nation by pr esuming the appropriate 14


### amounts of electricity from coal, natural gas, 15


### nuclear, and renewables, as well as presuming how 16


### much electricity consumers should use in each 17


### state. In fact, Administrator McCarthy testified 18



### recently that EPA wants to consumers to use less 19



### energy. 20


### Although EPA claims states have 21


### flexibility to determine how to meet the EPA 22

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### goals, the magnitude of emission reductions 1



### leaves most states little alternatives but to 2



### follow EPA's mandates. 3


### Fourth, EPA bases its proposal on flawed 4



### inf ormation and assumptions for the four building 5



### blocks that are the basis for each state's 6


### emissions target. 7


### Finally, despite enormous economic 8


### impacts, the proposal will have no meaningful 9


### effect on global climate change because the 10


### proposal will reduce global greenhouse gas 11


### emissions by less than 1 percent. If EPA's own 12



### scientific assessments are correct, the emission 13


### reductions from this proposal will result in a 14


### meaningless 1

- percent reduction in atmospheric 15


### CO2 concentrations, an insignificant reduct ion in 16



### global average temperature of 2/100ths of a 17


### degree, and a trivial reduction in sea level rise 18



### of 1/100th of an inch, the thickness of three 19



### sheets of paper. 20


### In conclusion, EPA's proposal has 21


### fundamental flaws that cannot be fixed by simply 22

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### making c hanges to it. Instead, we urge EPA to 1


### withdraw the proposal. 2


### Thank you again for the opportunity to 3



### speak. 4



### MS. BANISTER: Thank you so much. Mrs. 5


### Patterson, would you state your name and spell it 6



### for the court reporter? 7



### MS. PATTERSON: Sure. My name is 8


### Jacqueline Patterson, and the spelling is J

- a

- c

9



### q

- u

- i P

- a

- t

- t

- e

- r

- s

- o

- n. 10


### So, in February of 2011, my father began 11


### to complain of a cough, which worsened over 6 12



### months until he was home

- bound and tethered to an 13


### oxygen machine. He was severely winded, just 14


### from walking from the living room to the kitchen 15


### to get a glass of water. Dad's diagnosis was 16


### pulmonary fibrosis. 17


### My father never smoked a day in his life. 18



### His doctor stated that the scar tissue in his 19


### lungs was likely due to past exposure to 20



### en vironmental toxins from his work place or 21


### otherwise. Dad spent 40 years residing within 10 22

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### miles of the Fisk and Crawford coal plants in 1


### Chicago. We laid my father to rest on September 2



### 20, 2011. How many more people must we bury 3



### before we are granted eq ual protection under the 4



### law? 5


### Approximately 68 percent of African 6


### Americans live within 30 miles of a coal plant. 7


### The impact is clear in the rates of respiratory 8


### illnesses in African Americans. Even though we 9


### have lower rates of smoking, we are more lik ely 10


### to die of lung disease. Nationwide, African 11


### American children are twice as likely to die of 12


### asthma and three time as likely to be admitted to 13


### the hospital for an asthma attack. We also see 14


### high rates of asthma rates within Latino American 15



### and Native American populations, who are also 16


### disproportionately exposed to coal pollution. 17


### Carbon may not directly cause these 18



### health conditions but it creates what scientists 19



### call dome, that traps, concentrates, and 20



### intensifies the other toxins we breathe. With 21



### t he mercury, arsenic, lead, dioxins, and other 22

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### pollutants that come from coal plants in 1



### communities nationwide, these domes are, in 2


### effect, creating lethal gas chambers for 3



### communities that are host to these facilities. 4



### At the same time, carbon dioxide is the number 5


### one driver of climate change, and these plants 6


### are the leading source of carbon dioxide. Again, 7


### climate change affects us all, but its effects 8


### are hardest felt by communities and people who 9


### are politically, economically, physically, and 10



### sociall y vulnerable. 11



### When I did hurricane relief after Katrina 12


### and Rita, the throngs of folks who walked through 13


### the doors of the disaster recovery center were 14



### largely low

- income and largely African American. 15


### I also met scores of people with hearing 16


### impairmen ts, with no qualified interpreter, to 17


### help them navigate the system. 18


### I encountered people with HIV and AIDS, 19



### who went weeks without access to their life

20


### preserving anti

- retroviral drugs. I met women 21



### who encountered sexual assault in the aftermath 22

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### of th e disaster. I met hundreds of people who 1


### had to completely start over after only escaping 2


### with their lives, and scientists say that 3


### Katrina, Rita, Sandy, and even the Colorado 4


### floods, and more, are only the tip of the 5


### iceberg. 6


### Growing up on the south sid e of Chicago, 7


### I lived in a food desert, like so many 8



### communities of color and low

- income communities. 9



### This means that we had better access to Doritos 10



### or Cheetos than broccoli or strawberries. We 11


### already see how this plays out for our 12



### communities who are suffering from heightened 13


### rates of obesity, as well as hunger, and all of 14


### the health conditions that result from poor diet, 15


### such as diabetes, heart disease, high blood 16



### pressure, et cetera. 17



### Affordable access to nutritious foods 18


### will only lessen as climate change affects crops. 19


### In recent years, we've seen farmers from Illinois 20


### to Iowa to Mississippi and beyond lose crops, 21


### both to flooding and drought. Again, scientists 22

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### say we've only begun to see these impacts. I 1



### visited with coastal communities from Flor ida to 2



### Louisiana to North Carolina to New York, some of 3


### whom are already experiencing coastal erosion, 4


### and several of whom are facing imminent 5


### displacement in the next 20 years, due to sea 6


### level rise and storm surge. 7


### The cost of inaction on carbon polluti on 8



### is the health, livelihood, culture, economic, and 9


### social well being of communities worldwide, with 10


### vulnerable communities being hit first and worst. 11


### Therefore, we need strong carbon pollution 12


### standards to slow the path of devastation on 13



### which we are al ready recklessly traveling. 14


### Strong means that we aren't steering the ship 15


### from one disaster to another, by myopically 16


### shifting to false solutions. 17


### Even if costly clean coal technologies 18


### were proven to be effective in capturing carbon, 19



### that wouldn't hel p the 76,000 coal miners who 20


### have died of black lung disease since 1968, or 21


### the folks who are drinking lead

- and selenium

22

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### laced water contaminated by coal ash ponds. 1


### Shifting to fracking continues to emit 2


### carbon from venting and flaring. It has been 3



### know n to contaminate aquifers with a mystery 4


### cocktail of toxins, and may even contribute to 5


### the increase of seismic activity that is causing 6


### earthquakes from Nebraska to Ohio and beyond. 7



### The folks near the Fukushima Daiichi Plan would 8


### certainly have a caution ary tale about increasing 9


### our reliance on nuclear energy, particularly 10


### given that a number of America's nuclear reactors 11


### are built on earthquake fault lines already being 12


### disrupted by fracking. 13


### We must establish aggressive targets for 14


### pollution reduction and significantly increase 15


### our focus and action on energy efficiency and 16


### clean energy. The National Renewable Energy 17



### Laboratory has found that we have vast amounts of 18


### solar, wind, and geothermal potential, some of 19


### which is already being successfully harne ssed, 20


### creating new jobs. That's where we need to focus 21



### investment as we shift from harmful coal

- based 22

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### energy production processes. 1


### Finally, we must ensure that each state's 2


### development of implementation plans is done 3


### inclusively, so that equity

- based inp ut is heeded 4


### and all stakeholders are heard, particularly the 5


### communities that are most impacted by coal 6


### pollution directly as well as indirectly. 7



### Thank you. 8


### MS. BANISTER: Thank you. Any clarifying 9


### questions? 10



### MR. STENHOUSE: I do. I have one. I 11



### want ed to ask Ms. Sullivan, you mentioned some 12


### electricity rate comparisons you'd made between 13


### states that have a carbon reduction program and 14



### states that do not, presumably, or maybe the rest 15



### of the country as a whole. Is that from a 16


### particular point in time where you were comparing 17



### rates? 18



### MS. SULLIVAN: Those data are from EIA, 19


### the Energy Information Administration's

-- it's 20


### either Monthly Energy Review or Electric Power 21


### Monthly, and they publish that every month, and 22

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### it was in April of this year, and we co mpared the 1


### nationwide average electricity rate to California 2


### and then to the New England states, and it's on 3



### the Internet. 4



### MR. STENHOUSE: Okay. Thank you very 5



### much. 6


### MS. BANISTER: Thank you both for joining 7


### us this morning. We are going to take a brea k 8



### for lunch. We will resume back at, I think it is 9



### 12:06, so we will resume back at 1:06, so about 5 10


### after 1, back in this room. Thank you. 11



### [Lunch recess taken from 12:06 to 1:05.] 12



### AFTERNOON SESSION 13


### MS. BANISTER: We'll be starting in a few 14



### minutes. 15


### Good afternoon. My name is Beverly 16



### Banister. I am the Air, Pesticides, and Toxics 17


### Management Division Director here in Region 4, 18



### here in the Atlanta office, and I'm one of the 19


### chairs of today's public hearing. Thank you for 20


### coming today. Joining me on the panel this 21


### afternoon are Jeaneanne Gettle, who is the Deputy 22

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### Director for the Air, Pesticides, and Toxics 1


### Management Division Director here in Atlanta in 2


### Region 4, and also Jeb Stenhouse, the Air Program 3


### Manager with the Office of Air and Radiation, a nd 4



### he's part of our rule

- writing team. 5



### We are here this afternoon to listen to 6



### your comments on two proposed rules to reduce 7


### carbon pollution from power plants. EPA 8



### announced both of these rules on June 2, 2014. 9



### Power plants are the largest source of car bon 10


### pollution in the U.S., accounting for one

- third 11


### of all the domestic greenhouse gas emissions. 12


### The first rule is EPA's proposed Clean 13


### Power Plan for existing power plants. This 14


### proposal consists of two main parts: state

15


### specific goals to lower carb on pollution from 16


### power plants and guidelines to help states 17


### develop their plans for meeting those goals. 18


### This proposal gives states flexibility in 19


### determining how to meet their goals. States 20


### would choose what goes into the plans, that show 21



### how they woul d achieve the needed reductions and 22

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### meet their goals by 2030. 1


### The second rule is EPA's proposed rule to 2



### address carbon dioxide emissions from modified 3


### and reconstructed power plants. This rule would 4


### set emission limits for two groups of power 5



### plants: th ose that make physical or operational 6


### changes that increase the plant's maximal 7


### achievable hourly rate of emissions, and those 8



### that replace components to such an extent that 9



### the new components exceed 50 percent of the 10


### capital costs of an entirely new compa rable 11


### facility. 12


### If you would like more details on either 13



### of these proposed rules, there are fact sheets 14


### available near the registration desk. 15


### Today's hearing is one of four public 16


### hearings across the country this week on the two 17



### proposed rules. We have had tremendous interest 18


### in each of the hearings, and I'd like to thank 19


### you all for taking time out of your day to join 20



### us and to share your comments. We have a lot of 21


### people that have signed up to speak, and we want 22

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### to hear from all of you, so before we g et 1


### started, I'd like to go through a few 2


### housekeeping items and ground rules that will 3


### help make today's hearing run smoothly. 4


### First, let me be sure that you have 5


### checked in at the registration desk. Even if 6


### you're not planning to speak, we would like yo u 7


### still to check in at the desk. If you have 8


### signed up to speak online or by phone but you 9



### haven't told us that you're here, please step out 10



### now and check in, and let the EPA staff know that 11


### you've arrived. 12


### Secondly, if you are a speaker, you have 13



### been g iven a room letter when you checked in, 14



### either Room A or Room B. This is Room A. 15


### All right. Let's talk a little bit about 16


### how the hearing will work this afternoon. I will 17


### call speakers up in pairs. When your name is 18



### called, please come to the table at the front of 19



### the room. When I call on you to speak, please 20


### state your name and spell it for the court 21


### reporter. Your comments will be transcribed and 22

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### included in a record of comments on the proposed 1


### rule. Each speaker will have 5 minutes to give 2



### commen ts. We have a light to help you know how 3


### much time you have left. When light turns from 4


### green to yellow, that means you have 1 minute 5


### remaining. When it turns red, that's the signal 6


### to wrap up your testimony. The light will flash 7



### red and beep when you have spoken for 5 minutes. 8


### Then it will be time to stop. 9


### When you are finished speaking, please 10


### remain at the table until the person next to you 11


### has completed his or her testimony. We are here 12


### to listen to you today. However, a panel member 13



### may ask you a question or ask you to clarify your 14


### comments. I will then call up the next pair of 15


### speakers, and so on. If you have a written copy 16


### of your testimony, please give it to the staff at 17


### the registration table before you leave today. 18



### Because of the large n umber of people 19


### that have signed up to speak, and to be fair to 20


### everyone, we are going to strictly adhere to the 21



### 5

- minute limit. If you have additional comments 22

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### that you'd like to make, we encourage you to 1


### submit them in writing. 2



### Let me assure you that E PA gives just as 3



### much considerations to comments that we receive 4


### in writing as we do comments we receive at public 5


### hearings like this one, so if you have more that 6


### you would like to say, please submit it. Your 7


### comments will be reviewed. There is still ple nty 8


### of time to get written comments in, and then 9



### there are comment cards available at the 10


### registration desk. Comments must be received by 11


### October 16, 2014. We will put any written 12


### comments submitted today in the official docket 13



### for the proposed rule. In structions for 14


### submitting written comments in other ways are 15


### available in the materials near the registration 16



### desk. 17


### We are scheduled to go to 8 p.m. tonight, 18


### and we will probably take a break around 3:00 or 19


### 3:30, but we will keep you posted as this 20



### afte rnoon goes on. 21


### If you have any questions during the day, 22

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### please see the staff at the registration desk and 1


### someone will try to help you. 2


### Finally, I want to ask each of you to be 3



### respectful of everyone who speaks today. We have 4


### people with a wide varie ty of views in the 5


### audience, and we want to hear from all of you, so 6


### we can do that and be fair to everyone, we ask 7


### that everyone listen quietly. Even applause can 8


### slow things down, and we want to hear from 9


### everyone who has signed up to speak. 10


### So, again, thank you all for coming and 11


### being a part of this session this afternoon. So 12



### let's get started. 13


### I would like to invite up Steve Willis 14



### and Been Myers to the front. Welcome. Thank you 15


### all for coming and sharing your comments this 16



### afternoon. Mr. Willis , if you could start. If 17


### you could state your name and also spell it for 18



### the court reporter. 19


### MR. WILLIS: Okay. My name is Steve 20



### Willis, and that's S

- t

- e

- p

- h

- e

- n, Willis, W

- i

- l

21



### l

- i

- s. 22

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### MS. BANISTER: Okay. You may begin. 1



### MR. WILLIS: I'm the Vice Chai r of the 2


### Georgia Sierra Club, and I appreciate this 3


### opportunity to say a few words. 4


### I've been following this issue for a long 5


### time and I think it's worth pointing out that the 6



### AJC, the Atlanta Journal

- Constitution, the local 7


### main paper here, had a major editorial yesterday, 8


### that claimed that they expect energy prices to go 9


### up 30 percent because of this proposed 10


### regulation, if it's enacted. Today, the same 11


### paper had an article saying that they actually 12


### think maybe prices will go down if this act is 13



### enact ed. 14



### The Koch brothers' Citizens for 15


### Prosperity, they've put a lot of people out 16


### there, spent a lot of money saying that our 17


### civilization and economy as we know it is going 18


### to fall apart if this regulation goes forward. 19


### Power Magazine, the mainline maga zine for the 20


### power industry, it said, in this last issue, it 21


### does not see any significant impact of this 22

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### particular regulation. 1


### So why is there so much discontinuity? 2


### And I think the reason is a very simple reason. 3


### The reason is there's no penalty for lying. 4


### People can lie and lie and lie and nothing 5


### happens to them. They're not held responsible. 6


### Even the media doesn't hold them responsible for 7


### their lies. And I think that anybody that's been 8


### following this issue knows at the entire world 9



### scientifi c community, with almost no exceptions, 10


### has been saying, for a long time, we're facing 11


### dire consequences because of our destruction of 12


### our own atmosphere, and in the concomitant 13


### destruction of our oceans through acidification, 14



### and the combined destruction of our coastal lands 15



### because of sea rise. 16



### There's no discussion. There's no 17


### problem in the scientific community. They know 18


### what's going to happen. The only thing is that 19


### their predictions keep falling short. Actuality 20



### continues to be much, much wors e than their 21


### predictions. Every year, every decade it's worse 22

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### than they predicted. 1


### So we've got science and we've got public 2


### relations, and we've got politics, and I am here 3


### to request that our government officials, at EPA 4



### and throughout the government, who are 5


### responsible for understanding what they're doing 6


### and analyzing and assaying what's happening in 7



### our world and our economy, to get back to 8



### science. 9


### I worked in Washington, D.C. for 25 years 10


### and I know what a sound grounding in science and 11



### truthful, honest investigation that EPA was based 12


### on, and over the years it's become politicized. 13



### It's become

-- yeah, well, these are the truths 14


### but this is the political truth, this is the 15



### scientific truth, this is the Koch brothers' P.R. 16



### truth. And I say I req uest that you get back to 17



### your roots. You have got to become the front 18


### line. You've got to become the heroes of 19


### changing the direction of the biggest polluter 20


### and consumption in the world. That's the United 21



### States of America. 22

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### And that's essentially t he essence of 1


### what I think this whole hearing process should be 2


### about, to say it's in your hands. If you decide 3


### to go with the political bit, or the P.R. bit, we 4


### are likely to have a very dismal future. But if 5


### you say, "We're going to stick to the facts and 6


### we're going to enact regulations that do the very 7



### best we can to make a good future for ourselves, 8


### and have justice for future generations," I say 9


### you are the ones that have to take the lead in 10


### it. And I know you're going to take a lot of 11



### heat, but if you don't, it'll be one of the 12


### greatest failures, I think, in history. 13



### Thank you. 14



### MR. BANISTER: Thank you. Do we have any 15


### clarifying comments or questions? Mr. Myers, if 16


### you could say your name and spell it for the 17



### court reporter. 18



### MR. MYERS: Sure. Good afternoon. My 19


### name is Ben Myers, B

- e

- n M

- y

- e

- r

- s. I am the 20



### Director of Governmental and Political Affairs 21



### for the International Brotherhood of Electrical 22

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### Workers, Local 613, in Atlanta, Georgia. On 1


### behalf of the approximately 4,300 active and 2



### reti red members of Local 613, I would like to 3


### thank you for the opportunity to testify 4


### regarding the EPA Clean Power Plan. 5


### Please know the majority of Local 613 6



### members are construction electricians, linemen, 7


### and apprentices who are employed by electrical 8



### con tractors throughout the Atlanta metropolitan 9


### area and northern Georgia. Local 613 represents 10



### voice, data, and video technicians who work in 11


### the construction industry, as well. 12



### Coal has been good to members of Local 13


### 613. Many of our members have been inv olved in 14



### the construction and maintenance of numerous 15



### coal

- fired power houses in Georgia. Much like 16


### the operation of a coal

- fired plant, construction 17


### and maintenance of coal generation is labor

18



### intensive, as well. 19



### Unfortunately, the Clean Power Plan 20


### imp erils a great source of work for Local 613 21


### members and threatens the reliability of our 22

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### nation's electrical grid. Naturally, the EPA has 1



### stated the Clean Power Plan will lead to the 2


### closure of 41 to 49 gigawatts of coal

- fired 3


### generation capacity by 2020. This will lead to 4


### the loss of 52,000 permanent, direct, and an 5


### additional 100,000 indirect jobs. 6


### In Georgia, the Clean Power Plan will 7


### close approximately six plants, combined. The 8


### state will lose approximately 1,300 direct and 9


### 2,500 indirect jobs. F or Local 613 members, the 10


### plan will be ongoing, for when these plants are 11


### closed, any further maintenance or repair will be 12



### work that is lost forever. 13


### Sorry. I'm not used to doing this. 14



### MS. BANISTER: That's okay. 15



### MR. MYERS: In addition to lost 16



### employ ment, the Clean Power Plan will threaten 17


### the reliability of our nation's electrical grid. 18



### One needs only to look up north at the effects of 19


### last winter's polar vortex. At its peak, during 20



### one of the coldest, snowiest winters on record, 21


### PJM, a regional tr ansmission authority whose 22

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### jurisdiction includes parts of the Mid

- Atlantic 1



### and Eastern Midwestern states, had as little as 2



### 700 megawatts of reserve power. 3


### We know that the compliance with the 4


### Mercury and Air Toxic Standards will close 5


### approximately 56 g igawatts of coal

- fired 6


### generation. Added to the additional 49 gigawatts 7



### from the Clean Power Plan, it is clear the U.S. 8


### electrical utility sector may have a difficult 9


### time meeting the nation's needs during a winter 10



### cold snap or a summer heat wave. 11



### For th e loss of 3,800 jobs in Georgia, 12


### Local 613 members have a reasonable expectation 13


### there will be a worthwhile drop in CO2 emissions. 14


### Unfortunately, this is not the case. For all the 15


### pain the Clean Power Plan will cause, there will 16



### be almost no reduction in CO2 emissions. 17


### The problem is not with the United 18



### States. The CO2 emissions have been flat for 24 19


### years. The problem is with the rest of the 20



### world, where CO2 emissions have risen 21


### approximately 44 percent since 1990. Please see 22

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### the graph included wit h my testimony. It is 1


### impossible for the United States to solve the 2


### world's global warming problems on its own. Any 3


### meaningful attempt to address global greenhouse 4


### gas emissions must be incorporated with America's 5


### trading partners, particularly China and India. 6


### Thank you again for the opportunity to 7


### testify. I respectfully suggest EPA reconsider 8


### the Clean Power Plan, taking into account its 9


### significant negative impact to the economy and 10


### grid reliability. Thank you for hearing me. 11



### MS. BANISTER: Thank you. Any clarifying 12


### comments or questions? Thank you both for coming 13


### this afternoon and than you for your comments. 14


### I would like to now invite up, I think 15



### it's Marie, M

- a

- r

- r

- e, Mertz, M

- e

- r

- t

- z, and 16



### Genna Garland, G

- e

- n

- n

- a Garland. Marie Metz? 17



### Yes. Thank you. I apologize for mispronouncing 18



### your name. 19


### Thank you both for joining us this 20


### afternoon. So, Mrs. Metz, would you like to 21


### state your name and spell it for the court 22

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### reporter please? 1


### MS. METZE: Yes. My name is Marie 2



### Robinson

- Metze, M

- e

- t

- z

- e. 3



### MS. BANISTER: Thank you so much. You 4



### can now proceed. 5


### MS METZE: And this is a surprise, 6



### because I have a letter that I submitted to 7


### Administrator McCarthy. I was told that it was 8


### too late to speak, and I'll just read a portion 9



### of the letter. 10



### Fi rst of all, I'd like to thank Dr. 11



### Robert D. Bullard, Dean of the Barbara Jordan

12


### Mickey Leland School of Public Affairs at Texas 13


### Southern University in Houston, and also 14



### Commissioner Emma Darnell, District 5, Fulton 15


### County, Georgia, Board of Commissioners, for 16


### taking time with me many, many years ago, in the 17


### early '60s, to involve me with the environmental 18


### and justice issue. As some of you may know, Dr. 19


### Bullard is affectionately called the founder of 20


### environmental justice. My letter to 21



### Administrator McCart hy: 22

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### I strongly support the EPA's effort to 1


### limit industrial carbon pollution from all power 2


### plants. The new proposed standard to limit 3


### greenhouses gases from existing power plants is 4


### an important step in the fight against climate 5



### change. Power plants co ntribute 40 percent of 6


### the carbon pollution in the United States, making 7


### them the largest contributor of carbon emissions 8


### and the chief cause of climate change. This new 9


### clean air standard will protect public health, 10


### fight climate change, and create jobs through 11


### innovation and cleaner, safer energy technology. 12


### It is our moral obligation to put people 13


### before polluters, and address the primary cause 14


### of climate change by stopping the unlimited 15


### dumping of carbon pollution into our air by power 16


### plants. Reduci ng the amount of carbon pollution 17


### from power plants is a life

- saving measure that 18


### will protect our children, our nation, and the 19


### world from the devastating effects of climate 20



### change. 21


### I stand by you in support of this 22

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### regulation and your plan to maintain an 1


### affordable, reliable energy system while cutting 2


### pollution and protecting our health and 3



### environment. 4


### Thank you very much for giving me this 5


### opportunity. 6



### And I have another letter that I will be 7


### sending to Administrator McCarthy. Thank you. 8



### MS. BANI STER: Thank you. Yes. Could you 9


### state your name, as well as spell it for the 10



### court reporter? 11


### MS. GARLAND: My name is Jenna Garland. 12



### That's spelled J

- e

- n

- n

- a G

- a

- r

- l

- a

- n

- d. I live 13


### here in Atlanta now but I grew up in Woodstock, 14


### Georgia, just about 30 m inutes from where we sit 15


### today. I had the great pleasure of going to a 16


### wonderful school and living in a very wooded, 17


### pretty area where my sister and my friends and I 18


### spent a lot of time playing outdoors, on the 19



### playground at school, after school, when we got 20


### home, and I have a lot of very fond memories of 21



### this time, but I have some not

- so

- fond memories. 22

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### Those memories are from my childhood best friend, 1


### and still one of my best friends, to this day, 2


### either suffered asthma attacks when air quality 3



### was very bad on the playground, or when we ended 4


### up cooped up and weren't allowed to go outside in 5


### the summer or after school, because air quality 6



### was so poor. 7


### One time, when we were playing, I took a 8


### fall and landed on one of my ribs and had the 9



### wind knocked out of me. That was the first time 10



### that had ever happened. I was very shaken by the 11


### experience, and my friend, Anna, told me that's 12


### what it feels like when you have an asthma 13


### attack. That changed my entire outlook on that, 14


### as you can probably imagine. 15



### When I got older, I learned that from my 16


### entire childhood, Georgia Power was burning coal 17


### at the Jack McDonough Power Plant in nearby 18



### Marietta, less than 20 miles from where I lived 19


### and grew up. Georgia Power has since converted 20


### this plant to natural gas, so maybe not so many 21


### pollutants are coming out of the smokestacks but 22

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### pollutants are still coming out of its 1



### smokestacks. 2



### I'll never forget how angry I felt when I 3


### learned that myself, my family, and my friend, 4


### Dana, had been breathing in pollution from that 5



### plant for nearly 20 years. I'm very angry, on 6


### behalf of my friend, who suffered needlessly from 7


### many asthma attacks as a child, and on behalf of 8


### the other children who attended my school, who 9


### grew up breathing in the pollution from that coal 10



### plant. 11



### I' m also angry on behalf of children 12


### everywhere today, who have to breathe in 13


### pollution from smokestacks from all power plants, 14


### children who have to choose between playing 15



### outside

-- something I think all of us would 16


### agree is very important children, develop ing 17


### healthy habits

-- and risking an asthma attack or 18


### staying indoors. 19


### Now, as an adult, I really enjoy spending 20


### time outdoors, whether hiking, running, going to 21


### my boot camp in the mornings. I even like to 22

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### read a book in my back yard while the cats chas e. 1


### That's a very important part of my unwinding at 2


### the end of the day. Carbon pollution from power 3


### plants threatens all these activities. 4


### I'd also like to take the opportunity 5


### just to correct some misinformation that I've 6


### heard today in person, as well a s yesterday. I 7



### work at the Sierra Club. I am a media relations 8


### officer with the Beyond Coal campaign and I'm 9


### very lucky to work from North Carolina south to 10



### Florida, west to Oklahoma and Texas. So I work 11


### on campaigns to phase out our region's oldest and 12


### dirtiest coal plants and replace them with clean 13


### energy, and I'm also working to stop coal exports 14



### out of the Gulf Coast. 15


### I'd like to just point out a few things. 16


### First of all, anyone who is saying that the coal 17


### that won't be burned in the U.S. is going to be 18


### exported overseas is wrong. We've stopped three 19


### proposed coal terminals in Texas, we've slowed 20


### the development of other coal terminals on the 21


### Gulf Coast, and multiple proposed coal export 22

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### terminals in California and the Pacific Northwest 1



### have also been delayed or cancelled outright. 2


### The coal is not going to be shipped overseas. 3


### Second, for anyone saying that this 4


### threatens grid reliability, that's a laughable 5


### statement. During multiple times in the past 3 6


### years, coal plants have gone down during times of 7



### extreme weather. In the record heat in Texas in 8


### August 2011, multiple coal plants that needed 9


### maintenance ended up shutting down, but it was 10


### the onshore wind farms, along the Texas Gulf 11


### Coast, south of Corpus Christi, that kept the 12


### lights and the air conditioners running during 13


### those first three days of August 2011. 14


### Coal plants have also gone down in cold 15


### snaps. Coal plants have been taken offline during 16


### other types of storms, whereas wind farms have 17


### kept going. Wind farms have kept the energy 18



### f lowing. So any claims of threats to grid 19


### reliability are just silly. 20


### Next, air quality in the metro Atlanta 21


### region and other parts of the country is 22

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### improving, but it's still unhealthy, and in some 1


### places it's illegally unhealthy, so just because 2


### it's go tten better doesn't mean it's good enough 3


### for people breathing today. 4


### Finally, here in Georgia, solar, wind, 5


### and energy efficiency have created more than 6


### 10,000 jobs in the last few years. Solar 7



### contracts and wind contracts have also 8



### counteracted rate in creases that Georgia Power 9


### customers, like myself, are paying for the new 10


### nuclear units at Plant Vogtle, and the rate 11


### increases that we've seen after Georgia Power 12


### decided, wrongly, poorly, to spend hundreds of 13


### millions of dollars to keep old coal plants 14



### r unning. Those things drive up rates, whereas 15


### the wind and solar contracts are keeping rates 16



### down. 17


### So, I'll just close by saying that I 18


### applaud the U.S. Environmental Protection Agency, 19


### I applaud Administrator Gina McCarthy and 20



### President Barack Obama in t aking this first 21


### critical step to curbing unchecked carbon 22

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### pollution and making sure our state and region is 1


### more resilient, more secure, and more prosperous. 2



### Thank you. 3



### MS. BANISTER: Thank you. Do I have any 4


### clarifying comments or questions? Thank yo u both 5


### for joining us this afternoon. Thank you. 6



### I would now like to invite Joni Jenkins 7


### and David Muhly. Thank you both for joining us 8



### this afternoon. Ms. Jenkins, we'll start with 9


### you. If you could state your name and spell it 10



### for the court reporter , please. 11


### MS. JENKINS: Thank you. Joni, J

- o

- n

- i, 12



### Jenkins, J

- e

- n

- k

- i

- n

- s. Thank you for the 13


### opportunity to speak today. I represent the 14


### Kentucky House District 44 in the Kentucky 15


### General Assembly. The 44th District is south of 16


### Louisville, right on the banks of the Ohio River. 17



### It is home to hard

- working, mostly blue

- collar 18


### workers who strive every day to raise their 19


### children for a brighter future. The 44th 20



### District is also home to two coal

- fired power 21


### plants with two coal ash landfills and coal ash 22

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### po nds. Daily, fly ash blows from the towering 1


### landfill and lands on my constituents' cars and 2


### their homes. Fly ash lands on their children's 3


### toys and swing set. Fly ash lands on their 4



### vegetable gardens

-- and that's just the 5



### pollutants we can see. 6



### I trav eled today to represent the people 7



### of the 44th District, the moms and dads, the 8


### grandmas and grandpas, who want to see their 9


### children grow up healthy and prosperous. As a 10


### public official, I rely on having the most 11


### truthful, objective set of facts before m e, as I 12


### make decisions that may affect thousands of 13


### people for thousands of years. It is a 14


### responsibility that I sought and one I do not 15


### take lightly. I believe the proposed EPA climate 16


### rules are step in the right direction, for so 17



### many reasons

-- the he alth of our citizens, the 18



### health of our economy, and the health of our 19



### planet. 20



### Kentucky has an abysmal rate of asthma, 21


### 13 percent. Asthma and allergies have triggers 22

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### in common, among them being pollen counts, which 1


### are expected to rise significantly if climate 2


### change continues unabated. We will not see 3


### positive change until we begin to limit the 4


### amount of carbon dioxide spewing forth from the 5



### coal

- fired power plants. 6


### I have asthma. I know that I will always 7



### be on medication and will never be far fr om a 8


### rescue inhaler. My condition is manageable, but 9



### there are side effects like bone loss from the 10


### very medicines that allow me to breathe. We are 11


### sentencing too large a number of our children to 12



### this chronic disease. 13


### As a state, we are attempting to p repare 14



### our young students for a new and global economy. 15


### Clean energy initiatives have proven to be 16


### economically successful in many jurisdictions 17


### throughout the world. Kentucky needs to join in 18


### this revolution. Since 1970, every dollar 19


### invested in compli ance with the Clean Air Act 20


### standards have yielded $4 to $8 in economic 21



### benefits. 22

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### Between 2008 and 2009, the Louisville 1


### area was hit by hurricane

- strength winds in the 2


### fall, a January ice storm that left much of 3


### Louisville and the western portion of Ken tucky 4


### without power for months, and a summer flash 5



### flood caused by 6

- 1/2 inches of rain falling 6


### during morning rush hour, resulting in millions 7


### of dollars of damage. The climate is changing, 8


### and not just in Louisville, Kentucky. 9



### The EPA is to be commende d for stepping 10


### up in the absence of congressional action to 11


### address the GHG emissions from power plants. 12


### This flexible approach proposed in the rules for 13


### existing and modified electric

- generating units 14


### allows states like Kentucky to improve the 15


### efficiency in how we generate and consume 16


### electricity, looking for ways on both sides of 17


### the meter to improve the quality of life of the 18


### people of the fourth poorest state in the nation. 19



### We have cooked the books on energy for 20


### many years in Kentucky, and our relianc e on coal

21


### fired power and electricity made cheap by 22

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### externalizing the pollution cost has had a real 1


### impact on the people of my district and others 2



### that host coal

- fired power plants. Requiring 3



### that the full environmental and human health 4


### impact of combusti ng fossil fuels be accounted 5



### for is not a war on coal, but is instead a 6


### rational effort to protect human health and our 7


### children's future by stopping the use of the 8


### public's air, land, and water for industrial 9


### waste disposal. 10


### As a person of faith, I would like to 11


### join my denomination, the United Church of 12


### Christ, in commending the EPA for taking a 13


### crucial step toward safeguarding human 14


### communities and the earth for generations to 15



### come. 16



### Thank you. 17



### MS. BANISTER: Thank you. Mr. Muhly, 18



### would you please sta te your name and spell it for 19



### the court reporter? 20


### MS. MUHLY: My name is David Muhly, D

- a

21



### v

- i

- d M

- as in Mary

- u

- h

- l

- y. Good afternoon and 22

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### thanks for the opportunity to comment on the EPA 1



### Clean Power Plan. I don't have a lot of 2



### extensive technical comment s or specific policy 3



### recommendations. I do know that the time to act 4


### is now and I applaud the EPA for taking the 5


### courageous position it has to give America the 6


### chance to be a leader in finally addressing the 7


### worst impacts of global climate disruption. 8



### I' m a senior organizing manager for the 9


### Sierra Club, Eastern Region, and I moved to the 10


### mountains of southwest Virginia in 1973 and have 11


### been off the grid since that time. In the mid 12


### 1980s, I moved our house onto photovoltaics, and 13



### the modules I purchased a t that time were 14


### manufactured by Siemens here in the United 15



### States. 16


### When I made a significant expansion to 17



### that system several years ago, I purchased 18


### Evergreen modules, which were also made in the 19


### U.S. Within a year, Evergreen had closed its 20



### U.S. facil ities and moved to China, and unlike 21


### when I first put those modules on my house in the 22

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### '80s, now all of the modules, virtually, that you 1


### can buy are made in China. 2


### This shift is not only the result of 3


### global market forces but it's also the inevitable 4



### and unfortunate result of energy choices that 5



### we've made as a nation. Because of short

- sighted 6


### energy policies and a continued subsidy of 7


### antiquated fossil fuel generation, the U.S. has 8



### lost a 40

- year head start on being a significant 9


### player in the world mark et in renewable energy. 10


### At the same time, we have continued to impoverish 11



### our workers in communities here in the U.S. with 12


### a continuing reliance on fossil fuels, even as 13


### the Earth demonstrates its inability to continue 14


### to absorb the impacts of fossil fuel

- based 15


### generation and pollution. 16


### It's said that the best way to get out of 17


### a hole is to stop digging, and the EPA carbon 18


### rule, the Clean Power Plan is the first step in 19


### putting down the shovel. We can begin filling 20


### the hole by aggressively implementing a nd 21


### expanding the EPA's proposal in the following 22

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### ways: 1


### (1) With bigger carbon reductions. We 2


### can transition from dirty to clean energy much 3


### faster than EPA predicts. We believe we should 4


### work toward a much larger emission reduction goal 5



### of 35 to 40 perc ent reductions below 2005 levels 6


### in 2020. This ambitious timetable will leverage 7


### American ingenuity and private enterprise while 8


### protecting public health and the environment. 9


### (2) With renewables and clean energy. 10


### States should recommend replacing dirty c oal 11


### generation with clean energy technology, 12


### including solar and wind, and approved energy 13


### efficiency. States can meet targets without 14


### increasing our use of dirty and dangerous energy 15


### sources like nuclear and natural gas. Trading 16



### dangerous technology or one costly fossil fuel 17


### for another is the wrong choice for our health 18


### and our energy future. The cheapest watt is the 19



### watt not used, and we, as a nation, waste 80 20



### percent of the power we consume. 21


### The Alliance to Save Energy has found 22

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### that America's hou seholds can save $1,000 each 1


### year if we double efficiency, representing $327 2



### billion in waste that we could reinvest in other 3


### areas of our lives. Starting with energy 4


### efficiency resource standards, states can begin 5


### improving the reliance and sustainabilit y of its 6


### communities. Clean power investments will 7


### protect our families' health, lower energy bills, 8


### create new jobs that cannot be outsourced, and 9



### grow our economy. 10


### (3) By empowering affected workers in 11



### communities. We must assure that affected 12



### communi ties are engaged throughout the process 13


### and that public resources are available to help 14


### workers and communities as they make the 15


### transition to a clean energy economy. Energy 16


### efficiency produces a host of economic benefits, 17


### including household and consumer savings, worker 18


### productivity, and more. Better building 19


### materials associated with energy efficiency 20


### generate health benefits by improving indoor air 21


### quality and creating safeguards for people who 22

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### are most susceptible to respiratory illnesses. 1



### Clean, r enewable energy benefits 2


### similarly increase community savings in the long 3


### term, and they offer a tremendous opportunity to 4


### develop assets within communities that can be 5


### leveraged for more economic and social benefits. 6


### If electric utilities fulfill 20 perc ent of their 7


### electric sales through renewable energy by 2020, 8


### 1.9 million jobs can be created across the U.S. 9


### By 2030, an estimated 20 percent of U.S. 10


### electricity will be provided by wind power. The 11


### solar power industry is projected to become a $15 12



### billi on industry by 2020. 13


### I've heard multiple comments over the 14


### last 2 days from apologists for the fossil fuels 15


### industry that this plan, even as drafted, is 16


### beyond the purview and out of the scope of what 17


### the agency can do under the Clean Air Act. To be 18



### sure , I am not asking the EPA to do anything it 19


### cannot, but I am certainly calling on and relying 20


### on the agency to do everything that it can. We 21


### expect, deserve, and can literally live with no 22

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### less. 1



### Thank you. 2



### MS. BANISTER: Thank you. 3



### MR. STENHOUSE: Ye ah, I have one 4


### question. I think you mentioned an estimate of 5


### 80, eight

- zero, percent of electricity the U.S. 6


### generates is somehow wasted. Did I hear you 7


### correctly there? Either now or in writing, as a 8



### follow

- on, if you could help clarify how that 9



### estim ate is obtained, what it represents, and if 10


### it has a source, that would be helpful for us, 11



### too. 12


### MR. MUHLY: Okay. I will dig up the 13



### source and get that data to you. I would suspect 14


### that it represents waste that's basically through 15


### the generation, transm ission, and distribution 16


### pipeline, as well as waste at the end product, 17



### end use. 18



### MR. STENHOUSE: Okay. Thank you very 19



### much. 20



### MR. MUHLY: I'll get that to you. 21



### MR. STENHOUSE: Thank you. 22

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### MS. BANISTER: Thank you both. We 1


### appreciate you being here with us this afternoon. 2


### Now I would like to invite Mark Douglas 3



### and also James McLemore to come up. Thank you 4


### both for joining us this afternoon. Mr. Douglas, 5


### if you could begin by stating your name and 6


### spelling it for the court reporter. 7



### MR. DOUGLAS: Abso lutely. My name is 8



### Mark Douglas, M

- a

- r

- k D

- o

- u

- g

- l

- a

- s. My thanks 9


### to the panel for your time and attention. I know 10


### 2 days lived 5 minutes at a time can be wearying, 11


### so I appreciate your willingness to be here. 12


### I am currently a professor of Christian 13



### et hics at Columbia Theological Seminary here in 14


### Decatur, Georgia, a theological seminary 15


### associated with the Presbyterian Church USA. I 16


### hold an undergraduate degree with honors in 17


### biology from the Colorado College, two master's 18


### degrees from Princeton Semina ry and a doctorate 19


### in religious ethnics from the University of 20


### Virginia. I'm also the current Chairman of the 21


### Board of Georgia Interfaith Power and Light, 22

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### which is the largest faith

- based environmental 1


### group in Georgia and one of the largest in the 2



### countr y, and I'm here to speak in favor of the 3



### Clean Power Plan. 4



### You have heard, and will continue to 5



### hear, for the next few hours, at least, a wide 6


### variety of perspectives on the plan. Most of 7



### them will focus on economic costs and benefits, 8


### on health, on jobs , on responsibilities to our 9


### children, and, at least from religious folks like 10


### me, on obligations we believe come from our 11


### Creator about caring for God's creation, by 12


### reducing greenhouse gases and airborne toxins. 13


### With many gathered here, I am convinced t hat the 14



### long

- term benefits far outweigh any short

- term 15



### costs. 16


### Beyond all that, though, as an ethicist 17


### whose scholarly work focuses on just war theories 18



### and peace

- making practices, I would argue that 19


### reducing greenhouse gases and mitigating the 20



### effects of climate change by promoting 21


### alternative energies will provide important 22

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### security benefits to citizens in the United 1



### States and around the world. Scientists, as well 2


### as political theorists in the emerging discipline 3


### of environmental security studies, have become 4


### increasingly aware of the consequences of climate 5


### chaos to make armed conflict more likely, to 6



### exacerbate it when it occurs, and cause more 7


### suffering for non

- combatant populations during 8



### conflict. 9



### We know, for instance, that the worst 5

- 10



### year drough t in the recorded history of Syria 11


### drove young men from rural areas into the cities, 12


### there searching for work. They gathered, and 13


### facing unemployment and a government seemingly 14


### uninterested in providing for the common welfare, 15


### those rural youth helped ini tiate the civil war 16



### that currently engulfs that country and has led 17



### thus far to over 160,000 deaths, and is now 18


### reaching beyond the Syrian borders through the 19


### activities of the dangerous new terrorist group, 20



### ISIS. 21



### Likewise, climate chaos has contributed 22

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### t o recent conflicts in Somalia and the Sudan, and 1


### promises to contribute to conflicts not only in 2



### the Middle East and Northern Africa but in 3


### Central and South America, southern Africa, parts 4


### of Asia, and conceivably parts of Europe. 5


### From a diplomatic persp ective, we know 6


### that the United States, as the world's only 7


### indispensible nation and one of the world's 8


### greatest powers for promoting stability and 9


### welfare will be involved in addressing such 10


### potential conflicts, so it is in our best 11



### interests to reduce th ose forces, including 12


### climactic ones, that drive instability. 13


### From a security perspective, we know that 14



### the greatest threats we currently face come not 15


### from large and established nation states but from 16


### fragile and failed states that cannot prevent 17



### terrori st organizations from operating in and 18


### launching attacks from those places. So it is in 19



### our best interest to reduce those forces, 20


### including climactic ones, that would support 21



### terrorism. 22

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### From an economic perspective, we know 1



### that there are limits to the r esources we can 2


### provide toward addressing such conflicts during a 3


### time when our own domestic needs are likely to be 4


### so significant, so it is in our best interest to 5


### reduce those forces, including climactic ones, 6


### that can unnecessarily drain our economy. 7



### A nd from a humanitarian and religious 8


### perspective, we know that we are called to 9


### provide aid to those who suffer, which is part of 10



### what Jesus meant when he told us to love our 11


### neighbors. So it is in our and their best 12


### interest to be the peacemakers Jesus c alled 13


### blessed, and part of that peacemaking project 14


### will come through establishing better systems for 15



### energy use. 16



### Thank you. 17



### MS. BANISTER: Thank you. Do you have 18


### any questions. Okay. Thank you. Would please 19


### state your name and spell it for the court 20



### reporter, please? 21



### MR. MCLEMORE: Yes. Thank you and good 22

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### afternoon. My name is James H. McLemore. That's 1



### M

- c

- L

- e

- m

- o

- r

- e. Thank you for this opportunity 2


### to speak to you. I'm an attorney in Montgomery, 3


### Alabama. I'm here representing the Alabama 4



### Indu strial Energy Consumers, commonly known as 5



### the AIEC. I've represented them for over 20 6



### years. We oppose the proposed carbon rule. 7


### AIEC is a voluntary association of 15 8


### industrial companies which are high

- load 9



### customers of the Alabama Power Company. 10



### Alt ogether, they consume nearly 5 billion 11


### kilowatts of electricity every year from Alabama 12


### Power. It's not unusual for a company in this 13


### customer class to spend 50 to 60 percent of its 14


### operating budget on just electricity, and 15


### considering that industrial cus tomers consume 40 16


### percent of all electricity generated by Alabama 17


### Power, you can appreciate the concern we have 18


### with this proposed rule. 19


### The special sensitivity of industrial 20


### customers to changes in the regulation of 21


### electricity, and, in turn, the economi c well 22

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### being of our state is obvious. For that reason, 1



### well over 30 years ago, we parked ourselves 2



### before the Alabama Public Service Commission to 3


### work with, and, at time, fight against, the 4



### attorney general for the state of Alabama, to 5


### keep electric util ities in check, while also 6


### protecting our economy and our environment. 7


### That's right. You heard me right. I 8


### said and the environment. We all agree that 9


### electric regulation is not simply about price and 10



### rates. It's about balance. In the last few 11



### years, Alabama Power has asked the Alabama Public 12


### Service Commission to approve purchase power 13


### agreements for over 400 megawatts of wind 14


### generation, as well as projects for biomass 15


### projects and other renewable energy projects. 16


### All of these projects threaten to upward pressure 17


### on energy prices. Yet by working together, we, 18


### in the Alabama Power Company, found a balance 19


### which promoted clean energy, while also 20


### protecting the availability of reliable, 21


### affordable electricity and stability of prices

-- 22

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### and that's in a ddition to the $3 billion that the 1



### Power Company has spent for the last 10 years to 2



### develop clean energy systems and technology, and 3



### that's a cost borne by all of us, as customers. 4


### All of this is to say that working 5


### together to balance our respective and important 6



### interests is hard work, and it takes time, but it 7


### works in Alabama. The proposed carbon rule, on 8


### the other hand, throw this way out of balance. 9


### The proponents of the rule admit that the 10


### electric rates will rise significantly under this 11



### rule. " Don't worry," they say, "the economy can 12


### safely absorb this impact over time. 13



### Well, they're wrong, and here's why. 14


### Three years ago, we commissioned a study by the 15



### Center for Business and Economic Research at the 16


### University of South Alabama to measure t he impact 17


### of large industry upon the economy of Alabama, 18


### and the effect of changes in electric prices. It 19


### proved what I said at the outset

-- large 20


### industry is our lifeline, and it is especially 21


### sensitive to swings in electricity prices. That 22

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### study used direct impact multipliers, which were 1


### developed by the U.S. Bureau of Economic 2


### Analysis, a mode known as RIMS II. Impact 3


### multipliers for earnings and employment for 4


### manufacturing were 35 percent and 45 percent 5


### higher, respectively, than non

- manufacturing 6


### industries. Manufacturing account for 85 percent 7



### of all Alabama exports. 8


### From another perspective, the share of 9


### manufacturing output to total economic output in 10


### Alabama is over 16 percent. In comparison, the 11


### United States manufacturing output to total 12



### o utput is less than 12 percent. So manufacturing 13


### ripples through our state economy and it leads 14



### all other business sectors in relative levels of 15



### wages, share of employment, and exports. 16


### The study also showed that price 17


### elasticity for electricity is much higher for 18


### large industry than other business sectors. That 19


### means that spiking electric rates, which would 20



### result from this carbon rule, will hit Alabama 21



### hardest at its economic core

-- manufacturing. 22

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### The study proves that a rise in electric rates, 1



### rela tive to other regions, threatens the 2


### commitment of companies that choose to locate 3


### here. That's not absorbing the impact of the 4


### carbon rule. That's throwing industry out of the 5


### state, and out of the country, industry which is 6



### the heart of our economy. 7



### S o I plead that you follow the model that 8



### works in Alabama. Return to the work table with 9


### utilities and industry, abandon the melodrama, 10


### seek proven, not specious, solutions that promote 11


### clean energy without crippling manufacturers and 12


### ruining the economic well being of our citizens. 13



### I know you work hard, I know you mean well. It's 14


### a complex world we live in, but I'll leave you 15


### with guidance that my dad, a long

- time cotton 16


### farmer, gave me when I got into this business of 17


### practicing law. He said, "Jimmy, seek solutions. 18



### Don't make problems." 19


### Thank you for the opportunity. 20



### MS. BANISTER: Thank you both. Do you 21


### have any questions, follow

- up? 22

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### MR. STENHOUSE: I would just ask, if you 1


### weren't already planning to, including a copy of 2



### the study or some way w e can find the study from 3


### the university you were referencing. 4



### MR. MCLEMORE: Yeah. I'd be glad to 5


### leave a copy with you. I brought one with me and 6


### I'll send it to you with my comments, as well. 7



### MR. STENHOUSE: Thank you very much. 8



### MR. BANISTER: Thank you. Thank you 9



### both. I would now like to invite Ben Johnson, 10


### and I know I'm going to mispronounce this, 11



### Estefani? 12



### [Inaudible comment.] 13



### MS. BANISTER: Oh, okay. Great. 14


### MR. JOHNSON: Do you care which chair I 15



### sit in? 16



### MS. BANISTER: It doesn't matte r. This 17


### left one is fine. Thank you both for joining us 18


### this afternoon and submitting your comments. We 19


### truly appreciate it. 20


### Mr. Johnson, would you like to start, and 21


### if you could say your name and spell it for the 22

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### court reporter. 1



### MR. JOHNSON: Okay. My name is Ben 2



### Johnson. First name Ben, B

- e

- n, last name J

- o

- h

3



### n

- s

- o

- n. That's an easy one. And first I want 4


### to thank you for taking the time to listen to my 5



### comments and take them to heart as you try to 6



### formulate rules for us to have a cleaner planet, 7



### better environment for all of us to live in, for 8



### the long term. 9


### I want to start with a personal story, my 10


### personal witness to climate change in Georgia. 11


### One of my passions is working out in my yard. I 12


### live in Smyrna, Georgia, which is a suburb of 13



### Atlan ta. It's just outside of the perimeter loop 14


### that goes around the city. And my wife and I 15


### love to work in our yard. We are amazed by the 16


### wonder of everything that's naturally growing 17


### there, and by the things that we have planted 18



### there. 19



### Over the last sev eral years it has become 20


### harder and harder for her, in particular, to be 21


### able to be outside for any period of time. 22

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### Working for about an hour is the limit before she 1


### is in respiratory distress, due to the existing 2



### state of the air in metro Atlanta, and thr oughout 3



### the country. 4



### We also love to go to many outdoor 5


### places. Smokey Mountain National Park is one of 6



### our favorites, and the trees there, in addition 7


### to the insect damage, are being killed, in large 8


### scale, by the pollution, the acid rain that is 9



### fallin g. 10



### Our love of the outdoors and nature and 11



### outside activities

-- swimming, hiking, boating

- 12



### - leads me to come here today and say we want the 13


### strongest possible safeguards that we can have. 14


### Your hearing is only about the power plants, but 15



### the power plant s are responsible for over 30 16



### percent of the carbon

- based emissions in this 17


### country right now, so I applaud you for the rules 18



### that you have set forth, and feel that those 19



### rules should be enacted as they are currently 20


### written, or should be strengthened. We 're 21


### talking about 30 percent reduction by 2030. That 22

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### is a long time frame, and I recognize that this 1


### is a problem that took hundreds of years to grow, 2


### and it can't be turned around overnight. 3


### We don't expect industry or the power 4


### companies to immediate ly dismantle all of their 5


### dirty power plants, which Georgia has two of the 6


### top ten dirtiest plants in the country. But we 7


### can clean up the atmosphere and improve the 8


### quality of life for all Georgians, so that we 9


### could be leading with pride in this state a nd not 10


### being chained by old technology and old industry. 11



### Cleaner environment leads to a healthier 12


### population. You have a stronger, healthier work 13


### force, less sick time, and unproductive or less 14


### productive time by the people of the state that 15


### are living a nd working here. It should be more 16


### attractive to business, a place where businesses 17



### want to expand and want to relocate and want to 18



### grow. 19


### I know I've spoken with people on planes, 20


### as we flew into Atlanta, and they say, "Where is 21


### the city? All I see is trees." We have a great 22

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### natural infrastructure here but we need to 1


### improve it. We should be leading and not 2


### allowing people who are driven solely by a profit 3


### motive to dictate what happens with our 4



### environment. 5


### It's about the quality of life for all 6



### Ge orgians, and so that we can make the motto that 7


### Georgia has used from tourism and some other 8


### sites, that says, "Welcome to Georgia, a great 9


### place to live, work, and play." I wish I could, 10


### with my whole heart, say that I firmly believe 11


### that is true. If yo u enact these rules, we 12


### should be able to meet them with prudent business 13


### practices by embracing clean technology, which 14


### will not raise the rate of power but reduce the 15


### cost to consumers, to business, and to everyone, 16


### while, at the same time, increasing th e quality 17


### of our air and the quality of our life. 18


### And my catchphrase for today is, "If 19



### power plants breathe cleaner, we all breathe 20



### easier." 21


### I want to thank you for your time today, 22

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### and I hope you'll take my comments to heart. 1



### MS. BANISTER: Thank you s o much. Any 2


### clarifying comments or questions? Okay. If you 3



### would state and spell your name for the court 4



### reporter. 5


### MS. IGNACIO: My name is Estefani 6


### Ignacio, E

- s

- t

- e

- f

- a

- n

- i, Ignacio, I

- g

- n

- a

- c

- i

- o, 7


### and I'm an intern at Environment Georgia. I am a 8



### ris ing junior at Connecticut College, where I 9


### major in public health with a focus in 10



### environmental science, and I would first like to 11


### thank you for the opportunity to testify about 12


### the EPA's proposed rule to limit carbon 13


### pollution. 14


### Global warming is a curren t issue that we 15


### are all facing. Whether I am in Acapulco, 16



### Mexico, where I was born, or here in Atlanta, 17


### Georgia, where I was raised, this issue crosses 18


### borders affecting millions of individuals. Global 19


### warming has especially affected my family, where 20



### my n ephew, Joshua, who is only 8 years old, 21


### suffers from severe asthma, which only continues 22

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### to worsen as time goes on. I have watched him 1


### take his medication and can only imagine how hard 2


### this experience must be for him. I reassure him 3


### every day that things will be better, because we 4


### have millions of individuals that are working 5



### hard to make a safer and cleaner environment for 6



### our children. 7



### More than 3.6 million Latinos have 8


### developed asthma in the U.S., with 1 in 10 being 9



### a Latino child. Our children are the most 10


### vulnerable to the effects of global warning. 11


### With power plants producing 40 percent of carbon 12



### emission and no limit on the amount of carbon 13


### that they dump into the air, it is no surprise 14


### that these numbers are so high. 15



### I am here today to state t hat the Latino 16


### community in the U.S. recognizes the threat that 17


### climate change poses on the health of our 18


### families and the future of our community in this 19


### country. In the end, global warming affects 20


### everyone, whether you're rich, poor, African 21



### American, C aucasian, or Hispanic. It is an issue 22

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### that brings us all together to save the 1



### environment that we all share. 2


### For this reason, I support the Clean 3


### Power Plan in hopes that one day we will have 4



### cleaner air and environment. I commend the EPA 5


### for respondi ng to the urgent need to protect 6


### public health and not only our future but our 7


### children's future. [Speaks Spanish.] We must 8



### make a change today. 9



### Thank you. 10


### MS. BANISTER: Thank you. Any questions, 11


### clarifying comments? Thank you both. We 12


### appreciate your comments today. Thank you so 13



### much. 14



### I would now like to invite Amber Keller

- 15



### - what is that, Kellner?

-- Keller, and Djuan 16



### Coleon, C

- o

- l

- e

- o

- n, great, to come up to the 17


### front. Hello. Thank you both for joining us 18


### today. We will start with Amber. Please say 19


### your name and spell it. 20


### MS. KELLER: My name is Amber Keller and 21


### I'm just representing myself as a citizen and 22

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### everything. So, I think the, overall, the Clean 1


### Energy Plan is really, is a really good idea and 2


### it's a really, it's just some real ly strong 3


### legislation coming from the EPA. I think that, 4


### you know, it's really necessary at this time and 5


### there's been a lot of, plenty of studies that 6


### have come out to prove the effects of emitting 7


### large amounts of carbon dioxide into the 8



### atmosphere, as well as other greenhouses gases, 9


### and its effect on climate change. 10


### So I think this is just

-- the EPA to 11


### continue to stay strong on this plan, and 12


### continue to move forward with it, I guess with 13


### just one maybe slight modification that, of just 14


### calling ca rbon dioxide pollution, I guess, just 15


### because of the fact that it's a greenhouse gas, 16


### not necessarily a pollution, because carbon 17


### dioxide is naturally just emitted in cycle 18


### through the environment. 19


### So, I don't know, just to say, just to be 20



### clear on the messaging about greenhouse

-- you 21


### know, carbon dioxide emissions, not necessarily 22

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### like carbon pollution. That would be the only 1


### thing. That's it. 2



### MS. BANISTER: Great. Thank you. Thank 3


### you for your comments. I appreciate that. Mr. 4



### Coleon

-- how do yo u pronounce your name? 5



### MR. COLEON: Coleon. 6



### MS. BANISTER: Coleon. Would you state 7


### your name and spell it for the court reporter, 8



### please? 9


### MR. COLEON: It's Djuan Coleon, D as in 10



### David

- j

- u

- a

- n, C as in Charlie

- o

- l

- e as in 11



### Edward

- o

- n, but the D is silent . That's what they 12


### say. I want to thank you all this afternoon for 13


### having this forum, for us to be able to voice our 14


### thoughts on President Obama's Clean Energy Plan. 15



### I'm the Executive Director of PURE, which is 16


### Project Urban Renewable Energy, and we're f ocused 17


### on environmental justice. 18



### And I want to start out the context of my 19


### conversation from my thoughts from Genesis 2:15, 20


### where it says "The Lord placed the man in the 21



### Garden of Eden to tend and watch over it." So, 22

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### with that context, I think it's all of our duty 1



### to steward the Earth. That's what we were put 2


### here for. The Earth is just not going to take 3


### care of itself. There is some responsibility for 4


### man and society to do the best it can to allow it 5


### to reach its full potential. 6



### So I applaud and su pport the President 7


### for making the step to implement the plan for 8


### American to improve our stewardship of the Earth 9


### by putting these guidelines in place, to reduce 10


### carbon emissions by 30 percent by 2030. But we 11


### have to look at the issues that we're facing with 12


### as broad a lens as possible, because it's not 13


### just our environment that we have to consider, 14


### but we have to see that what we decide today will 15


### affect jobs, school funding, health care, pension 16


### plans, community volatility. All of these are at 17



### stake, a nd we have to look at a holistic 18



### approach. 19


### We just came off of a 50

- year celebration 20


### of the 1964 Civil Rights Act, where Dr. King was 21


### leading that charge, and we can still hear that 22

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### clarion call today in the form of environmental 1


### justice. He said, in h is book, "Where Do We Go 2


### From Here: Community Or Chaos?" that "We must 3


### work passionately and indefatigably to bridge the 4


### gulf between our scientific progress and our 5



### moral progress. One of the great problems of 6


### mankind is that we suffer from a poverty of 7


### spirit which stands in glaring contrast to our 8


### scientific and technological abundance. The 9


### richer we have become, materially, the poorer we 10


### have become, morally and spiritually. 11



### "So much of modern life can be summarized 12


### in the suggested phrase of Thore au, 'Improve 13


### means to an unimproved end.' This is the series 14


### predicament, the deep and haunting problem 15


### confronting modern man and large material power 16


### spell and large peril if there is not 17


### proportionate growth of the soul." 18


### So what Dr. King propheticall y analyzed 19


### in his book, "Where Do We Go From Here: Community 20


### Or Chaos?" is apropos for today. As we rush to 21


### improve the environment, we must consider all the 22

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### people who are living in the environment, from 1


### both ends of the economic spectrum, both rich and 2


### poor. As we tout new, green jobs that could be 3



### created by the Clean Power Plan, we have to 4


### consider what are we going to do about the jobs 5


### that are being lost due to the plan. Those jobs 6


### represent people and families. 7


### What incentives will be given to the 8


### fossil fuel industry as they continue to make 9


### progress in reducing CO2 emissions? As we tout 10


### renewable energy as the elixir, how will we deal 11



### with the melees that those who are 12


### disproportionately dealing with the toxic and 13



### hazardous waste in all forms , from petrochemicals 14



### to landfills? We have to address those 15


### pollutants as well. And how will income

16


### challenged communities afford the new 17


### technologies? 18


### The poorest urban communities usually 19


### cannot get adequate response to natural disaster, 20



### as we saw with Hurricane Katrina. They can't 21


### even get potholes fixed in their community, so 22

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### how will they be integrated into the new smart 1


### cities and smart energy grids that are coming? 2


### How will we ensure that technological innovation 3


### will not price them out? 4



### Thi s is the moral and spiritual 5


### implications we must consider, as Dr. King stated 6


### in that quote from "Where Do We Go From Here." I 7



### believe we have to build collaborative, 8


### sustainable communities one block at a time, by 9


### working with all stakeholders, from the fossil 10


### fuel industry to state and local governments, 11


### federal agencies, faith

- based organizations, and 12


### people in the community, to find ways to improve 13


### the ecological condition of each community 14



### environment, to create sustainable and resilient 15



### communities. 16


### MS. BANISTER: Any questions, clarifying? 17


### Okay. Thank you both. We appreciate your 18


### comments, and thank you for joining us this 19



### afternoon. 20



### I would like to now invite Elizabeth 21



### Marks

-- is she here?

-- and also Thomas

-- is it 22

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### Brisse? 1



### [Inaudible res ponse.] 2



### MS. BANISTER: Oh, okay. Great. I'm not 3


### quite sure if that was a U or an N. Thank you 4


### both for joining us this afternoon. We 5


### appreciate you being here, and we will start with 6


### Ms. Marks. If you will state your name and spell 7



### it for the court r eporter, please. 8


### MS. MARKS: Good afternoon. My name is 9



### Liza, well, Elizabeth or Liza, Elizabeth, E

- l

- i

10



### z

- a

- b

- e

- t

- h, Marks, M

- a

- r

- k

- s. I really 11


### appreciate the opportunity to come and speak with 12


### you this afternoon. 13



### I support the proposed standards for 14



### c arbon pollution from the coal

- fired power 15


### plants, and I also believe we could do much more. 16


### It's long past time for this country, which 17


### should be leading the world in addressing the 18


### challenges of climate change and sustainable 19


### growth, to take such action. 20


### Since I was a little girl, playing in a 21


### creek behind my house

-- I grew up in western 22

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### Massachusetts

-- I have known that caring for the 1


### Earth was important to me. My parents taught me 2


### that it wasn't just a choice but a responsibility 3



### to be thoughtful an d compassionate in my 4


### interactions with people, animals, and the 5



### natural environment. 6


### Now, as an adult, I can appreciate the 7


### difficulty of striking a balance between caring 8



### for the health of our Earth and the creatures 9


### living on it, and also managing a healthy economy 10



### that meets the needs of all our citizens, but I 11


### believe that both are important and we should be 12


### facing that difficulty honestly. 13



### I also come to this issue from the 14


### perspective of a social worker. I have a 15


### professional, ethical responsibi lity to take 16


### action to address social problems and promote 17


### social justice and human well

- being, so when I 18


### read on the American Lung Association's website 19



### that more than 35.6 million children live in 20


### counties that received an F grade for at least 21



### one form o f air pollution and that low

- income 22

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### people are likely to suffer disproportionately 1


### from the effects of air pollution, that suggests 2


### to me that I have not just a personal but also a 3


### professional interest in this issue. 4


### As you know from other testimonies, 5



### p olluted air can cause and exacerbate a litany of 6


### health problems, especially for children, the 7


### elderly, and people who are already sick. I've 8



### seen asthma, I've seen emphysema, I've seen lung 9



### cancer, and these are not minor inconveniences 10



### for the families that suffer with them. 11


### Becoming a mother has added another 12


### dimension to my feelings about our 13


### responsibilities as a people. I'm raising a 1

- 14



### year

- old in Atlanta, which the ALA, the American 15


### Lung Association, ranks 18th worst among U.S. 16


### cities for annual p articulate pollution. I'm 17


### frightened of the condition that the Earth and 18


### the climate might be in when my son is grown up, 19



### but I'm also hopeful that I and the other people 20



### who are adults now can make better decisions than 21


### we've made in the past. I despera te want my son, 22

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### Elijah, to grow up healthy in a healthy world, 1



### and I want him to meet lots of friends who are 2


### healthy and happy, and be able to build 3


### communities with them. I want his generation to 4


### grow up knowing that their parents and other 5



### grownups wor ked hard to address the problems that 6


### would impact them, even when that demanded 7



### sacrifices of us. 8


### Someday everyone in this room will be 9


### gone. The people who are babies now will be 10


### grown up with their own families, facing their 11


### society's challenges on th eir own. I don't want 12


### them to be angry or to feel that we did an 13


### inadequate job addressing the problems that 14



### affect them, and that would affect their lives 15



### and their families, because the work was too hard 16


### for us. I want his generation to know we love 17



### th em and we didn't leave them in the lurch. 18


### Thank you again for your time and for 19


### your work on this very important issue. 20


### MS. BANISTER: Thank you. Any clarifying 21


### comments or questions? Okay. Great. Yes. If 22

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### you would state your name and spell it for t he 1



### court reporter, please. 2



### MR. BEUSSE: Yes. Thomas Beusse, and 3



### that's spelled B

- e

- u

- s

- s

- e. I'm here this 4


### afternoon to speak on behalf of the Georgia 5


### Chemistry Council. The Georgia Chemistry 6


### Council, or GCC, is an industry trade association 7



### for the chem istry and plastics industries, and we 8


### currently represent over 25 companies with over 9


### 35 major facilities throughout the state of 10


### Georgia. 11


### GCC was founded in 2003, and our goal is 12


### to work with companies interested in chemical, 13


### environmental, and energy policies in the state 14


### of Georgia. Georgia Chemistry is essential to 15


### the state's economy, producing over $15 billion 16


### in product value and providing about 20,000 17


### direct jobs. GCC members include Georgia

- based 18


### companies like Kemira and Axiall, as well as 19



### in ternational companies such as BASF, Chevron, 20



### DuPont, Olin, and Dow. 21


### The business of chemistry is the third

22

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### largest industrial sector in the state of 1


### Georgia. Our industry is energy

- intensive. We 2


### use both natural gas and electricity as the feed 3



### stock f or our products. We crack the natural gas 4


### molecule to make a wide variety of products that 5


### we all use every day, and we use electricity to 6


### provide fuel for our electrolysis processes. 7


### Any action that will put market pressure 8


### on the availability and/or price of natural gas, 9



### or that will result in an increase to the cost of 10


### electricity could seriously impact our industry 11


### in an negative matter. The proposed 12


### Environmental Protection Agency's regulation of 13


### greenhouse gases in Section 111(d) could produce 14



### th at harmful result. 15


### Since many chemistry processes require 16


### large amounts of electricity and natural gas, 17


### both as a raw material and as an energy source, 18


### the U.S. chemical industry is highly attuned to 19


### how EPA's regulation for the electricity sector 20



### could a ffect energy markets. Changes in the cost 21


### and availability of energy are critically 22

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### important to our facilities, and we are concerned 1


### that the proposed Section 111(d) changes could 2


### lead to higher energy prices in certain parts of 3


### the country, a scenario t hat would make it more 4



### difficult for manufacturers in those states to 5


### compete abroad and grow and hire here in the U.S. 6


### The proposal, by EPA estimates, will 7


### decrease coal's role in power generation from 8


### about 40 percent to 31 percent. How will this 9



### reduc tion in coal use effect competitiveness in 10



### energy

- intensive industries located in coal

11


### intensive states like Georgia? Simply put, the 12


### proposal will increase the use of natural gas in 13


### the power generation sector. Natural gas 14


### production is increasing overa ll, but will the 15


### increased production be enough to offset the huge 16


### increase that will be required for power 17


### generation by switching to natural gas? 18


### For example, during February of 2014, we 19


### experienced a weather phenomenon here called the 20



### Arctic vortex. T his unusually cold weather 21


### caused a huge increase in demand for electricity. 22

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### The peaking demand is primarily generated by 1


### natural production. This spike in electricity 2


### demand also caused natural gas prices to spike. 3



### If we are not now prepared to weather a brief 4


### spike in demand, like the one created by the 5


### Arctic vortex, how can we possibly be prepared 6


### for a major shift from coal generation to gas 7


### generation? 8


### This new demand on our domestic supplies 9


### of natural gas is likely to cause natural gas 10


### prices to increase. Presently, chemical 11


### manufacturing is experiencing a renaissance in 12



### the United States due to the new discoveries of 13



### natural gas. We have gone from one of the 14


### highest cost

- producing countries to, arguably, 15



### one of the least cost

- producing count ries. 16



### We are pleased to see that EPA's proposal 17


### has a role for energy efficiency, which is one of 18



### the most cost

- effective ways to achieve emissions 19


### reductions. Model energy building codes and 20


### combined heat and power systems are two key 21


### options that state s should adopt. Building codes 22

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### and standards can play an important role in 1


### achieving the in

- use energy efficiency targets 2


### outlined in EPA's plan. 3


### The business of chemistry in the U.S. is 4


### undergoing a historic expansion, due to our 5


### decisive competitive advantage in the cost and 6


### availability of our energy and feed stock. As of 7


### this month, chemical manufacturers have plans for 8


### more than $113 billion in new investment over the 9


### coming decade. A comprehensive energy policy and 10


### smart regulations will be vita l to our continued 11


### expansion in the United States. 12


### Thank you for the opportunity to comment 13



### today. 14


### MS. BANISTER: Great. Any questions? 15


### Thank you both for your comments. We appreciate 16


### you all being here today. Thank you. 17


### I'd like to invite up Mark G addy and 18


### Eddie Plowden. Thank you both for joining us 19


### this afternoon. Mr. Gaddy, if you would state 20


### your name as well as spell it for the court 21



### reporter please. 22

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### MR. GADDY: Okay. My name is Mark Gaddy. 1



### Last name is G

- a

- d

- d

- y. Again, my position, I 2



### wo rk for Berkeley Electric Cooperative in South 3



### Carolina. We are in the South Carolina low 4



### country around Charleston, and as I get started, 5


### I'd just like to make a comment that as far as

-- 6


### I don't think there's an area in the country that 7


### takes more pride in the environment than the 8



### coastal Carolinas, with our lakes and ocean, 9



### estuaries, all the creeks and so forth. 10


### Charleston is very environmentally conscious, and 11


### I'd just like to say, on behalf of Berkeley 12



### Electric, that I think that we are environmental 13


### stewards. Our new CEO takes great pride. He's a 14



### rancher from Missouri. 15


### But we would just like to see any action 16


### take place in a slow, methodical way, that not 17


### only protects the environment but, at the same 18


### time, protects the pocketbooks of our member s. 19


### Our transmission cooperative, Central Electric 20


### Power Cooperative, has stated that they are 21


### concerned that these changes could increase the 22

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### cost of electricity to our members by around 50 1


### percent, which would be approximately $79 per 2



### month on the averag e electricity bill, and being 3


### that we serve a very rural population, on the 4


### outskirts of Charleston, portions of which are 5


### very rural, and we have daily contact with those 6



### folks, we know that they absolutely cannot afford 7


### this. So we just would plead with you to please 8



### help us on that front. 9


### And then I would get into my comments, if 10


### you don't mind. EPA's ruling will change the 11


### power supply infrastructure that our members' 12


### money has built and paid for over the last 13


### several decades. Despite its negative e conomic 14


### impact, the proposed rule will have little impact 15



### on the environment. However, it will have a 16


### major impact on the pocketbook of South 17



### Carolinians. 18



### EPA's new standards will reduce our 19


### future fuel diversity. One reason I think EPA 20



### proposed these standards is that it assumes 21


### natural gas is readily available and affordable 22

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### all over the country, and, in fact, natural gas 1



### is not available in certain areas. In the lower 2


### half of South Carolina, we do not have a major 3


### gas pipeline, which puts us at a v ery high 4


### disadvantage, I would say, there. 5



### In the newest proposed rule, the EPA has 6


### chosen to set independent carbon dioxide 7



### emissions standards for each state. Based on 8


### their estimate of that state's ability to comply, 9



### this has resulted in South Carolin a having to 10


### possibly reduce carbon dioxide emissions by 51 11


### percent, which is the third

- highest percentage in 12



### the country. The current proposal does not allow 13



### us to consider the new V.C. Summer nuclear units 14


### coming online in 2018 and 2019 as part of our 15



### ef forts to reduce our carbon emissions, and that 16


### plan is being built by South Carolina Electric 17



### and Gas

-- SCANA is the parent company

-- and by 18


### Santee Cooper, who is our power supplier. 19



### As we are forced to move away from coal 20


### for power generation, this ene rgy will need to be 21


### replaced. Reduced energy competition, combined 22

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### with increased energy demand and costly energy 1


### options, will inevitably increase electricity 2


### bills. Exactly how much it will increase will 3


### depend on which EPA

- approved method the South 4



### Ca rolina Department of Health and Environmental 5



### Control, would choose to restrict the use of coal 6



### in South Carolina. 7


### Whatever your view may be on the science 8


### of climate change, the proposed regulations would 9


### do little to affect the planet. When fully 10


### imple mented, the regulations will reduce global 11


### emissions of carbon dioxide by less than 1 12


### percent. This is hardly noticeable on a 13


### planetary basis, but it will definitely be 14


### noticed by South Carolina communities who would 15


### deal with increased electricity bills. 16


### And in closing, I would just like to 17


### encourage EPA to please reconsider this ruling, 18


### and, at the very least, if you would please 19


### consider inclusion of that plant, the V.C. Summer 20


### Plant in the Columbia area as part of our goal 21



### for South Carolina. 22

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### MS. BAN ISTER: Would you say the name of 1


### that plant again? 2



### MR. GADDY: Yes. The V.C. Summer nuclear 3



### units. 4



### MS. BANISTER: Okay. 5


### MR. STENHOUSE: I have a related question 6


### to that. Perhaps I'm not understanding the name, 7


### but are you talking about generators th at are 8



### nuclear powered? 9



### MR. GADDY: Exactly. 10



### MR. STENHOUSE: And so the word "solar," 11


### I think, is throwing me off. 12


### MR. GADDY: Oh, did I say solar? I'm 13



### sorry. V.C. Summer. 14



### MR. STENHOUSE: Okay. Thank you very 15



### much. 16



### MR. GADDY: That's the name of th e 17


### facility. That plant is under construction, 18


### presently, but it's not come online. 19



### MR. STENHOUSE: Thank you. 20



### MR. GADDY: Thank you. 21


### MS. BANISTER: And just a clarification 22

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### before we move on. The 50 percent increase

-- I 1


### think you said 50 percent incr ease? 2



### MR. GADDY: Yes, ma'am. 3



### MS. BANISTER: So those are caused, that 4



### you guys have went back and formulated and came 5


### up with specifically? 6


### MR. GADDY: Our transmission cooperative, 7


### which is Central Electric Power Cooperative in 8



### Columbia, South Carolin a, their CEO gave us those 9


### figures. 10



### MS. BANISTER: Okay. Thank you so much. 11



### MR. GADDY: Thank you very much. 12



### MS. BANISTER: Is it Ploden? 13



### MR. PLOWDEN: Plowden. 14



### MS. BANISTER: Plowden. Would you state 15


### your name and also spell it for the court 16



### report er? Thank you. 17


### MR. PLOWDEN: Okay. Eddie Plowden. E

- d

18



### d

- i

- e P

- l

- o

- w

- d

- e

- n. 19



### MS. BANISTER: Okay. 20



### MR. PLOWDEN: And I'm also from Berkeley 21


### Electric Cooperative. Mark and I work together. 22

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### We're a member

- owned electric cooperative, and my 1


### job at the co operative, every day, is helping our 2


### members wisely use energy. I manage the energy 3


### efficiency programs, putting in new technology to 4



### all members, to try to lower energy usage. So 5


### every day it's about helping our members that are 6


### calling in for high bill s, folks that are on the 7


### edge of not being able to pay bills, helping them 8


### reduce their energy efficiency. So we are all 9


### about trying to help our members on the usage 10



### side. 11


### We feel like this ruling is a little too 12


### aggressive and that it's going to drive up costs 13


### in South Carolina disproportionately for our 14


### members. By restricting the use of coal, this 15


### rule will change the power supply infrastructure 16


### that our members have already paid for, for the 17



### coal plants that are there for the past decades. 18


### Despite its tremendous negative economic impact, 19


### the proposed rule will have little or no impact 20



### on the environment. However, it will have a 21


### major impact on the pocketbooks of South Carolina 22

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### and our rate payers. 1


### The electric cooperatives of South 2



### Carolina are responsible for providing reliable, 3


### affordable electric power for 1

- 1/2 million South 4


### Carolinians, representing 700,000 homes, farms, 5


### businesses, and communities, covering almost two

6


### thirds of the state. We are a nonprofit business 7



### owned by our members we serve. Since we aren't in 8


### the business of making a profit, we have no 9


### financial interest in any one power supply option 10



### over another. We don't prefer coal

- based energy 11


### because it helps us make money. We prefer a 12



### coal

- based because we have existing plant s 13


### already in place that are paid for, and because 14


### it provides reliability for our members and keeps 15


### the price of power affordable. 16



### Coal not only helps to keep the power 17


### affordable, it also helps keep it reliable. This 18


### past winter is an example, out in th e eastern and 19


### midwestern areas of the country, which faced a 20



### tremendous pressure and supply of energy. They 21


### faced restrictions in delivery of natural gas to 22

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### the power plants, to many areas. On the coldest 1


### days, the increase in price was over 1,000 times 2


### what it normally should be. 3


### Additionally, in South Carolina, during 4


### the Valentine's Day area, during the time we had 5


### the coldest time, we actually faced power outages 6



### in South Carolina because of the cold weather, 7


### which actually shut down plants and we were on 8


### the verge of supply problems in South Carolina. 9



### So with the coal

- fired plants, during 10


### these extreme times, and having a coal plant with 11



### a 45

- day supply of resources onsite, it gives 12


### great peace of mind and protection for our 13



### members to have reliab le power and also reliable 14


### price volatility. It cuts down on price 15


### volatility for our members. With the loss of 16



### already

- scheduled 2014 shutdowns of some power 17


### plants, will we have enough capacity in the 18


### future to take care of needs, especially during 19



### the extreme times? 20


### To meet the nationwide 30 percent 21


### targeted goal, South Carolina will actually be 22

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### required to reduce carbon dioxide emissions from 1



### 1,587 pounds of CO2 per megawatt

- hour to 772, CO2 2



### per megawatt

- hour. When we compare the total 3



### reduction of pounds, 815, our burden is more than 4


### any other state in the union. Our early action 5


### to build the V.C. Summer nuclear plants, and 6


### actually displace or eliminate some of the 7


### capacity with the nuclear stations, is not being 8



### included in these numbers at all, and it places a 9


### big burden on South Carolina, as far as money and 10


### reaching the target reductions is concerned. 11


### The EPA, in establishing these rules, 12


### we've eliminated two of the blocks already, on 13


### plant efficiency and on natural gas utilization. 14



### The only two remaining to meet the goals would be 15


### energy efficiency and also renewable power, and 16


### we don't feel that they're attainable in South 17


### Carolina with the level of goals that's been 18



### established for the state. 19


### That given, with there being not a 20



### tremendous r eduction as far as affecting the 21



### environment, as far as we're concerned, this will 22

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### have a tremendous increase in the bills for our 1



### members, and we feel that this action will 2


### actually reduce our reliability of power, reduce 3


### our diversity of power sources fo r our members, 4


### and increase prices, and, of course, an increased 5


### price in power increases goods and services in 6


### the community and also can drive away job growth 7



### in our area. 8


### We just ask that the nuclear stations 9


### that are actually being built in South Ca rolina 10


### be considered in the goals for the state. We 11


### were actually proactive in building these before 12


### the goals were established. If we would've done 13


### this after the goals were set up today, then they 14



### would be included in it, and we would've had that 15



### inclu ded. So we feel that that should be 16


### included. And this is the same appeal that 17


### Georgia had, from earlier today, and I appreciate 18


### your time and consideration of our thoughts. 19



### MS. BANISTER: Thank you. Do you have 20


### questions? 21



### MR. STENHOUSE: I have a que stion. You 22

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### mentioned a Valentine's Day period this year, 1


### during which it sounds like supply became a 2


### considerable challenge. Do you know or could you 3


### supply to us later the particular facilities that 4


### were not able to operate at that time, that 5



### caused som e of the crunch? 6



### MR. PLOWDEN: I'm sure we could. 7



### MR. GADDY: It was old SCANA system. 8


### They had rolling brownouts. 9



### MR. STENHOUSE: What type

-- 10



### MR. GADDY: Cold weather affected the 11


### stations themselves and they actually lost a 12



### number of stations durin g that time period, and 13


### because of that, they had to do rolling 14


### brownouts. We just didn't have capacity. 15



### MR. STENHOUSE: Do you know what type of 16



### generators they were? 17



### MR. PLOWDEN: Natural gas. 18



### MR. STENHOUSE: They were largely natural 19



### gas? Okay. Th ank you. 20



### MS. BANISTER: Okay. Do you have any 21


### questions? 22

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### MS. GETTLE: No. 1



### MS. BANISTER: Okay. We thank you both 2


### for coming this afternoon and thank you for your 3



### comments. 4



### Evan

-- is it Swaak? Evan Swaak, and 5


### also Rudi Navarra. Thank you both for c oming 6



### this afternoon. Mr. Swaak, we will start with 7


### you. If you would just pronounce your name and 8


### spell it for the court reporter please. 9


### MR. SWAAK: Sure. My name is Evan Swaak, 10



### E

- v

- a

- n, Swaak, S

- w

- a

- a

- k. 11



### MS. BANISTER: Okay. 12



### MR. SWAAK: And I'm cu rrently a student 13


### at the University of Denver, but I was actually 14



### born in the Netherlands and have a dual American 15


### and Dutch citizenship, which means that I have 16


### two countries to worry about, two countries that 17


### I love equally and that are both heavily 18



### thre atened by climate change. 19



### For those of you who are unaware, the 20



### Netherlands is one of the lowest

- lying countries 21


### in the world. With only 50 percent of the 22

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### country exceeding 1 meter above sea level, the 1


### threat of sea level rise is incredibly daunting. 2



### Wi th the recent collapse of the West Antarctic 3


### Ice Sheet, the sea is guaranteed, absolutely 4


### guaranteed, to rise by a minimum of 13 feet, 5


### which means that within a couple hundred years, 6


### 60 percent of my country of origin will be 7



### underwater. 8



### Here in the State s, rising sea levels 9


### paint a similar picture. Louisiana, New York, 10


### California, and any other coastal state here in 11



### the States will share a similar future, albeit 12



### not so dramatic, and while the Netherlands and 13


### the United States have separate governments wi th 14


### separate laws and separate regulations, polluting 15


### the atmosphere with carbon dioxide affects us 16



### all. 17


### Putting carbon dioxide into the 18


### atmosphere is the biggest example we have of the 19



### tragedy of the commons, a theory that states that 20



### a group's self

- inter ests eventually depletes an 21



### entire resource. In this case, we're 22

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### individually polluting the atmosphere with carbon 1


### dioxide, assuming that there will be no future 2


### consequences for us all, when, in reality, there 3


### will be heavy consequences for the entire wo rld. 4


### We're ignoring the negative externalities that 5



### are soon to come. 6


### Rather than unfairly leaving the problem 7


### to future generations, it is time for us to solve 8



### them now. It is time for the United States to 9



### become a leader, rather than a follower, when it 10



### comes to environmental affairs. When it comes to 11


### climate change, it's important to realize that 12


### this is the biggest problem our species has ever 13



### faced. It is time to think as a whole rather 14



### than as an individual, and it's time to face the 15



### fact that ou r current progress is creating a 16


### planet that is inhospitable. 17


### We are creating a planet where our 18


### countries are flooding, our children are choking 19


### on deadly air, our fisheries are dying, our 20


### cultures are disappearing, our food is growing 21



### scarcer, our tempe ratures are rising, our ice is 22

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### melting, our oceans are acidifying, our forests 1


### are burning, our water is disappearing, our air 2


### is changing, our animals are growing extinct, our 3


### storms are intensifying, our droughts are growing 4


### longer, and our conflicts are intensified. Our 5


### environment is trying to tell us something, and I 6


### only hope we have the courage to listen. 7



### Thank you. 8



### MS. BANISTER: Thank you. Mr. Navarra, 9


### would you state your name and spell it for the 10



### court reporter? 11


### MR. NAVARRA: Hi. My name is Rudi 12



### Navarra. That is R

- u

- d

- i N

- a

- v

- a

- r

- r

- a. I think 13


### it's absolutely cold in here, by the way. 14


### I'm coming to speak to you as a Hispanic 15



### American. I live in the Miami

- Fort Lauderdale 16


### metro area, and I didn't really actually plan to 17


### speak, so this is off the cuff here. I support 18


### the Clean Power Plan, and I come as a repairer, 19


### as a homeowners, and as somebody in South Florida 20


### that is assuming the other negative externalities 21


### that are not being factored into this, that are 22

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### affecting now South Florida. 1



### So, as a homeowner, the insurance rates 2


### that are we are paying down there as a result of 3



### the carbon that has been emitted now for over 4



### 100

- plus years is, actually, very high and will 5


### continue to be very high. Were it not for the 6


### Florida Legislature and their hand in citizens' 7


### insurance, folks would not have a way to insure 8



### their home. 9



### So when I hear the co

- ops and the 10


### utilities actually come up here and say that this 11


### is going to be too expensive, or that they're 12



### concerned about the rate payers and the c osts 13


### that they will be passing on, it's something I 14


### share as well, but, at the same time, they have 15


### actually been given a free pass for 100

- plus 16


### years of having no regulation on carbon, and also 17



### on a whole bunch of other issues before the Clean 18



### Air Act and before the Clean Water Act. That's 19


### quite a subsidy. 20


### On the flip side, aside from all the 21


### public health costs, the other costs of climate 22

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### change, and of storm surge, and of sea level rise 1


### in South Florida, and throughout all the coastal 2



### communities out t here are just huge. There are 3


### places in Miami that, when you go to work in the 4


### morning, if there is a storm surge, you can't 5


### park in that parking lot because it's all 6


### flooded. It doesn't even have to rain that big. 7



### In terms of how it affects tourism

- - so 8


### if you speak to the Broward County office that 9


### deals with planning for adaptation, when we have 10


### high storm surges and it pulls all the sand up 11



### from the beach, that is millions of dollars of 12



### cost and of lost income for the state, in terms 13



### of businesses , in terms of tourism. So that's 14


### very real. That's happening now and that will 15


### continue to actually get worse. So I urge you to 16


### maintain a strong rule, and to even improve it, 17


### because of the costs that we're already bearing 18


### on that side, and how it's go ing to get worse. 19


### Just as my time is ending, it's a very 20


### simple cost

- benefit analysis, and we're not 21


### factoring in a lot of the other costs. I just 22

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### pulled these from an op

- ed in a newspaper, in 1


### terms of like medical costs, property damage from 2



### climate dis ruption, getting more reliable energy 3


### as we might focus on energy efficiency and 4


### renewables. Just a better protection for our 5



### natural resources. 6


### I think it is actually a very simple 7



### cost

- benefit analysis and I strongly urge you 8



### maintain this rule as a st rong rule. 9



### Thank you very much. 10


### MS. BANISTER: Thank you. Any clarifying 11


### comments or questions? Thank you so much. 12



### I would invite now Colleen Kiernan and 13



### Albert Roesel. If you would state your name, 14


### Colleen, and spell it for the court reporter, 15



### pleas e. 16


### MS. KIERNAN: Sure. My name is Colleen 17


### Kiernan. My first name is spelled C

- o

- l

- l

- e

- e

- n 18


### and my last name is Kiernan, K

- i

- e

- r

- n

- a

- n. 19



### MS. BANISTER: Okay. Go ahead. 20



### MS. KIERNAN: Thank you, everybody, for 21


### being here this afternoon. I'm the Director of 22

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### the Georgia Chapter of the Sierra Club, and I 1


### moved to Atlanta in 1995 to attend Emory 2


### University. The reason I picked Emory was 3



### because they have a really strong debate program. 4


### The Barkley Forum is one of the best policy 5


### debate programs in the count ry, and in 1996 the 6


### topic was climate change, and the resolution that 7


### year was that the United States should 8


### substantially reduce carbon pollution. 9



### And so since 1996, I read all of the 10



### research then and was convinced at that time that 11



### this was the most important problem facing my 12


### generation, and I've dedicated my career to 13


### working on this issue, but it's astounding to me 14


### that 18 years later, we're essentially having the 15


### same debate, even though the science has been 16



### clear since 1996. 17



### Fast forward to one of the first projects 18


### I worked on professionally with the Sierra Club. 19


### We were running around and talking about the 20



### three coal

- fired power plants in Georgia that 21



### were cited for new source review violations. 22

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### Those were Plants Bowen, Scherer, and Kraft. W e 1


### had a hearing up in Cartersville, Georgia, the 2


### home of Plant Bowen, so we were talking about 3



### whether Plant Bowen could clean up or not. And 4


### the mayor of Cartersville came to this hearing 5


### and he testified that we could not clean up Plant 6



### Bowen, in fact, because Georgia Power paid for 7



### character education in the Cartersville Public 8



### Schools. 9


### And as a young professional, I kind of 10


### fell out of my chair, because that argument 11



### doesn't really make any sense. Why can we not 12



### clean up Plant Bowen? Because Georg ia Power pays 13



### for character education in schools. Those two 14



### are not related, as far as I was concerned. But 15



### those are the same types of arguments we're 16


### hearing still today, that cleaning up power 17


### plants and moving towards cleaner types of energy 18


### is going to cost too much. That is the thrust of 19


### the arguments that we're hearing about. 20


### But, we know that since this hearing 21


### happened in 2002, we have cleaned up Plant Bowen. 22

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### Plant Bowen now has selective catalytic 1


### production, it has scrubbers, and the air is 2



### cleaner, and the children in Cartersville are 3



### less sick, as well as the children in all of 4



### metro Atlanta. So those arguments, EPA needs to 5


### keep making progress, and, of course, I'm here 6


### with the rest of my colleagues with the Sierra 7



### Club, who have been h ere for the last day and a 8


### half, supporting the rule. 9


### But I wanted to give that anecdote 10


### because back since 1996, in my personal 11


### experience, this is the same argument we've been 12


### having since 2002. We've been saying that the 13



### utilities can't do such

- and

- such because it's 14


### going to cost too much, but every time we make 15


### those investments, society, as a whole, benefits, 16


### and this policy is another great example of if we 17


### make these investments, society, as a whole, will 18



### benefit. 19



### I haven't been here to hear eve rybody's 20


### testimony over the last day and a half, but I've 21



### read some of the news coverage of some of our 22

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### public service commissioners, and some of our 1


### friends in the utilities that are talking about 2


### how much it's going to cost and how undoable this 3



### really. So I wanted to take a minute to walk 4



### through some of the math. 5


### It's my position, and the Georgia Chapter 6


### of the Sierra Club's position, that we can meet 7


### the Georgia target of 834 pounds per megawatt

8


### hour entirely through energy efficiency. So even 9



### if we stopped building Plant Vogtle and didn't 10



### take advantage of any of that carbon

- free energy, 11


### we could meet our entire target with just energy 12


### efficiency alone, and energy efficiency is the 13


### cleanest, cheapest, safest, and most reliable 14



### form of energy. 15



### So let's do the math. I printed out, and 16


### I can leave here with you today, a CEEE, which is 17


### the authority on how much energy efficiency there 18


### is. We have these charts. So the big blue bar 19


### is what the energy efficiency potential is for 20


### the state of Georgia. And so, in 2030, that 21


### number is about 34 million megawatt

- hours. And 22

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### then we've overlaid, at the bottom, these littler 1


### blue bars are EPA's assumptions for how much 2


### energy efficiency you're using in the building 3


### blocks. And so by 2030, we get up to 12 mi llion 4



### megawatt

- hours. 5


### Then we look at how much we're assuming, 6


### or EPA assumed we need to get from Vogtle. This 7


### is a synapse little tool that we printed out. 8


### The total is 209 pounds per megawatt

- hour. So to 9



### translate that into how much of that needs to 10



### c ome from energy efficiency, we just need to do 11


### some pretty simple math. So here we'll start 12


### writing the numbers. 13


### Okay. So to review the numbers, the 14


### potential

-- I'll go back in a second. So that's 15


### what's left. So, essentially, the difference 16



### between the potential and what EPA is assuming is 17


### 22 million and Vogtle is only 19, so we have 3 18


### million extra that we can get just from energy 19


### efficiency. We could meet our entire load with 20


### energy efficiency, even if we stopped building 21



### Vogtle today. So the fac t that our Public 22

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### Service Commission and Georgia Power have decided 1


### to pursue the most expensive way to do this type 2



### of carbon

- free power is irrelevant. We can do 3


### this. The 834 pounds per megawatt

- hour is a 4


### great goal and we support it. 5



### Thank you. 6



### MS. BANISTER: Thank you, and you're 7


### going to leave that as part of your testimony? 8


### Thank you so much. Do you have any questions 9


### right now? Okay. If you would state your name 10


### and spell it for the reporter. 11



### MR. ROESEL: I'm Albert Roesel. That's 12



### A

- l

- b

- e

- r

- t, Roesel, R

- o

- e

- s

- e

- l. I am a retired 13


### teacher. I was born in the early part of World 14


### War II, when the U.S. was recognized as the 15


### arsenal of freedom, at a time shortly after a 16


### Japanese officer remarked on having awakened a 17


### sleeping giant. The concentr ation of greenhouse 18


### gases in the atmosphere at the time were under 19


### 300 parts per million. 20


### Since successfully facing the challenges 21


### of that time, we recognized and overcame other 22

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### close to overwhelming challenges, including civil 1


### rights, and the space rac e. As a result, I've 2


### come to think of my country in terms, agreeing 3


### with its highest aspirations. I've grown to 4



### think of the United States as the can

- do country, 5


### the country that will rise to and overcome any 6


### obstacle, no matter how great, if the challen ge 7


### is worthy. 8



### Now the concentration of carbon dioxide 9


### in the atmosphere exceeds 400 parts per million, 10


### a level greater than ever before in human 11


### history, a level not seen in hundreds of 12


### thousands of years. As a result, the glaciers 13


### are melting, the fores ts are burning, the ocean 14


### is acidifying and rising, and major agricultural 15


### states are in drought. Year after year, the 16



### situation has become more dire, but the U.S. has 17


### been acting as though it were blind and deaf, if 18


### not stuporous, not only failing to add ress the 19


### problem but continuing to exacerbate it. 20


### Finally, with all life on Earth at risk, 21


### the EPA is proposing a Clean Power Plan to begin 22

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### to deal with human

- driven climate change. Is the 1


### sleeping giant once again rousing itself? The 2


### thought is encoura ging. I have been distraught 3


### watching this climate catastrophe cascading in 4


### the late years of my life, having grown up with 5


### the idea that each generation is obligated to 6


### leave succeeding generations better off, knowing 7



### that, instead, we have loaded the di ce against 8



### the dreams of our children. 9



### Now, with EPA's Clean Power Plan, I have 10


### a glimmer of hope. It's not enough, but it's a 11



### start. 12



### Thank you. 13


### MS. BANISTER: Thank you. Any clarifying 14


### comments or questions? Thank you so much for 15


### both coming this af ternoon and submitting your 16



### comments. 17



### Now I would like to invite Tanisha Thomas 18


### and Liz Peterson. Are you Ms. Thomas or are you 19



### Ms. Peterson? 20



### MS. THOMAS: Ms. Thomas. 21


### MS. BANISTER: Okay. Is Liz in, 22

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### Peterson? Okay. Thank you and welcome. 1



### MS. THOMAS : Thank you. 2



### MS. BANISTER: Would you state your name 3


### as well as spell it for the court reporter? 4


### MS. THOMAS: My name is Tanisha Thomas. T

- a

- n

- i

5



### s

- h

- a, Thomas, T

- h

- o

- m

- a

- s. 6



### MS. BANISTER: Okay. Great. You may 7



### start. 8



### MS. THOMAS: First of all, I wan t to 9


### thank the EPA for giving me the opportunity to 10


### speak here today on such an important issue. 11


### Growing up in metro Atlanta, I have experienced 12



### first

- hand the effects that ongoing climate 13


### change can have on the health of a young child. 14



### At a very early a ge, I was diagnosed with sickle 15



### cell anemia, an illness that led to other 16


### complications such as acute chest syndrome and 17



### asthma

- related symptoms. 18


### I remember once, after having a pulmonary 19



### check

- up, my doctor proclaiming that Atlanta is 20


### possibly one of t he worst cities for me to live 21


### in, due to the constant cycle of heat waves and 22

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### drought that has been proven as a real health 1


### threat, especially to elderly folks and kids with 2



### asthma and lung

- related diseases. 3



### I know that over the past few days, you 4



### have h eard many testimonies proclaiming that the 5


### regulations proposed in the Clean Power Plan will 6



### have bad effects on our economy, and you've heard 7



### people even deny that coal

- fired plants have any 8


### relation to the increase of pulmonary diseases in 9



### the past 30 ye ars, for both young and old 10


### citizens. However, I must say that anyone that 11


### would think like that couldn't possibly be 12


### thinking about the health of our youth. 13



### Power plants are the number one source of 14


### carbon pollution in the U.S., accounting for over 15



### 40 p ercent of carbon emissions, a proven link to 16


### aggravate and intensify many of these illnesses. 17


### I'm asking you, as a young person who has 18


### experienced first

- hand how the extreme amounts of 19


### carbon pollution could diminish one's health and 20


### the regulations set out by the Clean Power Plan 21


### must be put into effect immediately, not just to 22

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### protect the health of our youth here in Georgia, 1



### or even the Southeast, but all over our nation. 2



### Thank you. 3


### MS. BANISTER: Thank you, Tanisha. 4



### MS. THOMAS: Thank you. 5



### MS. BANI STER: Do you have any comments, 6


### clarifying comments or questions? Thank you so 7



### much. 8



### MS. THOMAS: Thank you. 9



### MS. BANISTER: I would invite Liz 10


### Peterson to come up. Thank you for coming out 11


### and sharing your comments with us today. 12



### MS. PETERSON: Thank you very much. I'm 13


### sure you guys are exhausted. My name is Liz 14



### Peterson

-- 15


### MS. BANISTER: Oh, if you could, yeah, 16


### go ahead, and just spell your name for the court 17



### reporter. 18



### MS. PETERSON: Okay. It's L

- i

- z P

- e

- t

- e

19



### r

- s

- o

- n. So, first of all, thank yo u for hearing 20



### us all out on all sides of this issue, which I 21


### think is one of the most important issues of our 22

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### time. This hearing is a unique opportunity for 1


### us to exercise our democratic right to speak 2


### about legislation that affects us. 3



### I recently comp leted an art project where 4


### I painted portraits of environmentalists who had 5



### been killed around the world for their activism, 6


### and so I didn't really realize until I was going 7


### through that project how special it is, our right 8


### to come and speak about this leg islation which 9



### affects all of us so much. 10



### So that's one of the reasons that I'm 11


### here today, but the other reason is because of my 12


### two children, who are also here, very bravely, to 13


### speak. Just as I wouldn't passively stand by if 14


### somebody wanted to smoke in my daughter's bedroom 15


### or dump trash on our lawn, I also don't feel like 16


### I can passively stand by while different 17


### industries are dumping toxins into our air or 18


### contributing to climate change, which I believe 19


### is happening. I believe we're already witnessin g 20



### the effects of it. 21



### So for that reason, I wholeheartedly 22

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### support the EPA's Clean Power Plan to reduce 1


### carbon emissions. And just to tell you a little 2


### bit about me, I grew up on the Gulf Coast of 3



### Florida, a little bit outside of Pensacola. We 4



### were a fam ily of five living in a one

- room 5


### fishing shack, where we grew our own vegetables 6


### and fished weekly for food. So we were actually 7


### a very poor family, and the land and water 8


### literally sustained us there. 9


### Now this area where my family still lives 10



### is assault ed on a regular basis by the wreckage 11


### of the fossil fuel industry, including the BP oil 12


### spill and an unprecedented flood this spring that 13


### left my sister and many other residents without a 14


### home and a car, so my sister is currently living 15


### with my mother. We 've been having a lot of 16


### unprecedented weather this year, all over the 17


### country and all over the world, and I believe 18


### it's going to get worse if we don't act 19


### immediately and decisively by first adopting the 20



### Clean Power Plan. I think there's a lot of other 21


### work to do after that, but this is a good first 22

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### step. 1


### I do hope that my children, Ben and Lucy, 2


### will be able to visit my parents along the coast, 3


### go swimming, and eat seafood from the clean water 4


### and breathe fresh air for many years into the 5



### future. I ho pe that our generation's appetite 6


### for comfort and money don't deprive them of the 7


### world that we were lucky enough to inherit. 8



### Thank you. 9



### MS. BANISTER: Thank you. 10



### MS. GRADY: I'm Lucy Grady. L

- u

- c

- y G

- r

11



### a

- d

- y. I recently learned that carbon emissions 12


### come from power plants which produce power for us 13


### to use. I do think that power is important and 14


### we depend on it very much for our work and heat 15


### and lighting, and a lot of other significant 16


### things that we use in our everyday lifestyle. 17


### But if carbon is p olluting the air on the Earth 18


### and making us more prone to ailments like asthma 19


### and bronchitis, then I would rather just stick 20



### with candles. 21


### In China, the air pollution is caused by 22

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### many different types of pollutants, but carbon 1



### emission is one of them. T he air is so bad there 2


### that citizens who live in certain parts of China 3


### are told to stay inside their homes, and when 4



### they do come out they have to wear masks because 5


### they can't breathe in the pollution. 6


### In the U.S., coal is the single largest 7


### air pollu tion. It can cause smog and climate 8


### change and also toxic air emissions. If we don't 9



### reduce the amounts of carbon emissions, then our 10



### air can be almost as bad as that of China, over 11


### time, especially if we added more power plants to 12



### the country. 13



### Out of t he 196 countries in the world 14


### today, we're the 83rd with the highest pollution, 15


### which is not too bad but if we don't do anything 16


### about the country's pollution rate, then we could 17


### end up hurting the health of our citizens and 18


### adding to the effects of climat e change. 19



### I want my future to be as great as some 20


### of the most accomplished scientists, leaders, and 21



### overall successful adults of the world's day. I 22

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### want my planet to be healthy so that kids can 1


### have really good jobs and lead lives that can't 2



### be affected by the problems of the environment, 3


### but if we're unhealthy and we always need to be 4


### tending to the dilemmas that don't involve our 5


### future, then we might never get there. 6



### So I want the Earth to be a clean and 7


### healthy place for humans to live on, but air 8



### po llution can make our environment unhealthy and 9



### unsafe. 10



### MS. BANISTER: Thank you so much. Do you 11



### have a comment? 12


### MR. STENHOUSE: I have a question, Lucy. 13


### You mentioned something about the U.S. being 83rd 14


### of 196 countries in sort of, I guess, a pollution 15


### measure. Do you know where that statistic came 16



### from? 17


### MS. GRADY: I just did a bunch of 18


### research earlier today, so, yeah, I just read a 19


### list of the countries ranked by highest 20


### pollution. 21


### MR. STENHOUSE: Well, if you submit any 22

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### written comments to our ru le

- making, including 1


### where you found that particular statistic, it 2



### would be helpful. 3



### MS. GRADY: Okay. Thank you. 4



### MR. STENHOUSE: Thank you. 5



### MS. BANISTER: Thank you both. I 6


### appreciate you all coming out this evening. Ben, 7


### is he here? Yes. Come up. Ben Grady. Thank 8


### you, Ben, for joining us. If you would state 9


### your name, spell it for the court reporter, 10



### please. 11


### MR. GRADY: My name is Ben Grady. B

- e

- n 12



### G

- r

- a

- d

- y. Yeah. Today I'd like to address the 13



### issue at hand which is carbon emissions. The 14



### E PA's plan to reduce emissions by 30 percent by 15


### 2030 was called authoritarian by some and 16


### revolutionary by others. It is a plan that I 17


### personally think is fantastic. While these 18


### emissions may not affect the adults at this time, 19


### it will definitely affect t he children and teens. 20


### I will grow up in a world where pollution 21



### problems are even more severe than they are now. 22

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### Right now, in China, power plants are 1


### polluting the air so much that people in certain 2


### cities have to wear breathing masks before they 3



### go outside. It's horrible that it's happening 4


### there and the way things are going now it's not 5


### unrealistic to think that it could happen here, 6



### in the United States. 7


### With this plan in place, you are making 8



### the lives of millions of children safer. Some 9



### people will try to tell you that putting in this 10


### plan will take away thousands of jobs. This is 11


### untrue. The way the solar power industry is 12


### growing, the jobs will simply be transferred. 13


### Carbon emissions don't only harm humans 14


### but they also harm the animals of the earth. 15


### Animals go extinct nearly every single day, 16


### without anyone noticing. Carbon emissions, in 17


### short, are horrible. They heat up the 18


### atmosphere, causing things to happen like the 19


### melting of the ice caps and extreme climate 20



### changes. 21



### A recent stu dy from Stanford linked 22

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### carbon emissions to increased deaths. If these 1


### emissions increase at the rate they are today, 2


### not only will we be out of fuel very, very soon, 3



### we will all be a little bit closer to the end of 4


### our lives. Running out of fuel won't be that big 5


### of a problem if we invest in power generators 6



### other than coal. 7


### One Alabama representative stated that 8


### God has given us coal, and that by not using it 9


### we are just

-- it would be unfair not to use it 10


### when He has so righteously provided for us. 11


### However, it can also be argued that God gave us 12


### wind, God gave us the sun, and God gave us all 13


### the other innovative new ways to generate power. 14


### Solar power is one of the fastest

- growing 15



### industries in the United States. 16


### Why use things that seriously har m us 17



### when we can use more advanced technology? Coal 18


### is a dated power source. It's like one of those 19


### enormous phones from the '90s. It still works 20


### but why use it when there are so many better 21


### options? But no. Let's do things the old

22

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### fashioned way, as i t endangers millions. 1


### Now, I don't know what you think about 2


### that, but personally I think it's messed up. 3


### Let's take a step in the forward direction and 4


### pass this plan, not just to ensure your safety 5



### but to ensure ours, too. 6



### Thank you. 7



### MS. BANISTER: T hank you. Clarifying 8


### questions or comments? 9


### MR. STENHOUSE: I would just ask, you 10


### mentioned the study from Stanford that links 11


### mortality to climate change or greenhouse gas 12


### emissions. If you follow up with a submission 13


### indicating to us which study that is and how we 14


### might get a copy of it would be helpful. 15



### MR. GRADY: Yeah. Okay. I can do that. 16



### MR. STENHOUSE: Great. Thank you. 17



### MS. BANISTER: Great. Thank you so much 18



### for your comments. That's great. 19


### So, again, I just want to thank everyone 20



### for p articipating this afternoon. We're going to 21


### take a break now, and at 3:30 we're going to all 22

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### resume in Room B. So at 3:30 we're going to 1



### resume in Room B. 2


### So thank you again, and we look forward 3


### to seeing you shortly in Room B. I think it's 4



### 3:15, so you have a 15

- minute break. 5


### [Recess at 3:15 p.m.] 6



### EVENING SESSION 7


### MS. BANISTER: Good evening. We're going 8


### to go ahead and get started, so if you all would 9


### take your seats, we'll go ahead and start this 10


### evening's session. 11


### Good evening. My name is Beve rly 12



### Banister. I am the Air, Pesticides, and Toxics 13


### Management Division Director here in Region 4, 14



### located here in Atlanta, and I am one of the 15


### Chairs of the public hearing for tonight. Thank 16


### you for coming. 17


### Joining me on the panel this evening is 18



### Darryl Weatherhead, who is a managing economist 19



### on this team, and also Julia Miller, who is an 20


### energy efficiency expert with our Office of Air 21



### and Radiation. 22

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### We are here this afternoon to listen to 1



### your comments on two proposed rules to reduce 2


### carbon pollution from power plants. EPA 3



### announced both of these proposed rules on June 2, 4



### 2014. Power plants are the largest source of 5


### carbon pollution in the U.S., accounting for 6



### roughly one

- third of all the domestic greenhouse 7


### gas emissions. 8


### The first rule is EPA's p roposed Clean 9


### Power Plan for existing power plants. This 10


### proposal consists of two main parts: state

11


### specific goals to lower carbon pollution from 12


### power plants and guidelines to help states 13


### develop their plans for meeting their goals. 14


### This proposal gives states flexibility in 15


### determining how to meet their goals. States 16


### would choose what goes into their plans, that 17


### show how they will achieve is needed in 18


### reductions and meet their goals by 2030. 19


### The second rule is EPA's proposed plan to 20



### address carbon dio xide emissions from modified 21


### and reconstructed power plants. This rule would 22

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### set emission limits for two groups of power 1


### plants: those that make physical or operational 2


### changes that increase the plant's maximum 3


### achievable hourly rate of emissions, and th ose 4



### that replace components to such an extent that 5



### the new components exceed 50 percent of the 6


### capital costs of an entirely new comparable 7


### facility. 8


### If you would like more details on either 9



### of these proposed rules, there are fact sheets 10



### available near the registration desk. 11


### This hearing is one of four public 12


### hearings across the country this week on the two 13



### proposed rules. We have had a tremendous 14


### interest in each of the hearings, and I'd like to 15


### thank you each of you for coming out tonight to 16



### share your comments and thoughts on these 17



### proposals. 18


### This evening will conclude our public 19


### hearing. We have a number of people that have 20


### signed up for tonight, and we want to hear from 21


### all of them. So before we get started, I'd like 22

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### to go through a few housekeep ing items and ground 1


### rules that will help make tonight's hearing run 2



### smoothly. 3


### First, be sure that you have checked in 4


### at the registration desk. Even if you're not 5


### planning to speak tonight, if you haven't already 6



### checked in we want to make sure that we have your 7


### name and your information. If you signed in 8


### online or by phone but haven't told us that you 9


### have arrived, please do so now, so, again, we can 10


### acknowledge you and get you on the speaking 11



### agenda. 12


### Secondly, if you are speaking

-- well, 13



### some of you guys may have been here earlier 14


### today, so we have basically consolidated to one 15


### room, so we're not meeting in Room B, so all of 16


### our discussion will be in Room A tonight. 17


### This is how we will work the hearing 18


### tonight. I will call speakers up in pairs. Whe n 19


### your name is called, please come to the table at 20


### the front of the room, which is right here. When 21



### I call on you to speak, please state your name 22

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### and spell it for the court reporter. Your 1



### comments will be transcribed and included in a 2



### record of comments on the proposed rule. 3


### Each speaker will have 5 minutes to give 4


### comments. We have a light to help you know how 5


### much time you have left to speak, which is right 6


### here. When the light turns from green to yellow, 7


### that means you have 1 minute remaining. W hen it 8


### turns to red, that's the signal to wrap up your 9


### testimony. The light will flash red and beep 10


### when you have spoken for 5 minutes, and that's 11


### the signal to wrap up. 12


### When you are finished speaking, please 13


### remain at the table until the person next to you 14


### has completed his or her testimony. We are here 15


### to listen to you tonight. However, a panel 16


### member may ask you a question or clarify your 17


### comments. I will then call up the next pair of 18



### speakers, and so on. If you have brought a 19


### written copy of your testimony, please give it to 20


### the staff at the registration desk before you 21


### leave tonight. 22

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### Because of the large number of people 1


### that have signed up to speak, and we want to be 2


### fair to everyone, we are going to closely adhere 3



### to the 5

- minute limit. If yo u have additional 4


### comments that you'd like to make, we encourage 5


### you to submit them to us in writing. 6


### Let me assure you that EPA gives just as 7



### much considerations to comments that we receive 8


### in writing as we do comments we have received at 9


### public hearings like this one, so if you have 10


### more that you would like to say, please submit 11



### it. Your comments will be reviewed. 12


### There is still plenty of time to get 13



### written comments in, and there are comment cards 14


### available at the registration desk. Comments 15



### must be received by October 16, 2014. We will 16


### put any written comments submitted today in the 17


### official docket for the proposed rule. 18


### Instructions for submitting written comments in 19


### other ways are available at the materials table 20


### near the registration desk. 21



### W e are scheduled to go until 8 p.m. 22

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### tonight. We will probably take a break, a short 1



### break around 7 for a transition in chairs, where 2


### Fred Thompson will be coming up from our 3


### headquarters office to chair, but we will keep 4


### you posted as the night goes on. 5



### I f you have any questions, please see the 6


### staff at the registration desk and we will try to 7


### assist you. 8


### Finally, I want to ask each of you to 9



### please be respectful of everyone who speaks 10


### tonight. We have people with a wide variety of 11



### views in the audience and we want to hear from 12


### all of you. So that we can do that and be fair 13


### to everyone, we ask that everyone listens 14


### quietly. Even applause can slow things down, and 15


### we want to hear from everyone who has signed up 16



### to speak. 17


### So thank you again for coming out tonight 18


### and being a part of this hearing over the course 19



### of the past two days. So let's get started. 20


### The first two speakers that I would like 21


### to join us here at the front table are Chip 22

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### Beeker and Paul Reynolds. Thank you both for 1


### joining us tonight . We look forward to your 2


### comments. And, Mr. Beeker, if you could state 3


### your name and spell it for the court reporter. 4


### MR. BEEKER: My name is Chip Beeker, C

- h

5



### i

- p B

- e

- e

- k

- e

- r. 6



### MS. BANISTER: Okay. 7


### MR. BEEKER: I'm delighted that you 8



### invited me and tha nk you. Is that too loud? 9



### MS. BANISTER: No. You're fine. 10



### MR. BEEKER: And thank you so much for 11


### having me here. I'm excited to tell you about 12


### the last little over a year in my life. I'm a 13



### farmer, and I'm a businessman, and I know what it 14



### means to ha ve to make a payroll and I know what 15


### it means to come to the end of the month and you 16


### have to be sure that everything fits together so 17


### that you can pay your bills, and, in my case, it 18


### depends on an affordable and reliable utility. 19



### I am also Commissioner

- E lect on the 20



### Public Service in Alabama for Place Number 2, and 21


### I'm excited about being able to go there, and 22

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### hopefully really help the state and surrounding 1


### states and our people in the state of Alabama. 2



### Those last 14 months that I mentioned a 3


### while ago, I traveled across Alabama, north to 4



### south and east to west, and I talked to many 5


### interesting people, and I asked them about their 6


### concerns, how they were doing and how they felt, 7



### and met a range of people

-- well, you can just 8


### imagine when you travel the st ate like that

-- 9


### and time and time again I kept hearing, "We're 10


### interested in jobs and talking about jobs, and 11


### we're very interested in Alabama's economy, and 12



### what can you do, and what place do you have, and 13


### what will you play in that, and how can you help 14



### us?" 15


### Real interesting. They said that they 16


### were fearful of their utility rates rising, and 17


### asked questions, "What can you do about that?" I 18



### heard from many, hundreds. We have a large coal 19


### deposit in the state of Alabama, and thousands of 20



### people who ar e employed there. And I heard them 21


### telling me that they were worried. Now, I told 22

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### you that they were fearful, and they said, "We 1


### heard it on the news that the government is 2


### waging a war on us." And I said, "Well, I heard 3



### the comment about there's a war o n coal," and so 4


### I don't think that was a good term to use that 5



### there's a war and these people are employed. 6



### They're gravely concerned. Many, many 7


### work in the mines, and I had a privilege to go to 8


### some of the mines and visit with those people, 9



### and I hav e some pictures, photographs with them 10


### coming out and them expressing their concerns to 11



### me, and grandfathers and as far back as they 12


### could remember they've worked in the coal mines. 13


### Several talked about obligations they had, and 14


### children that they had tha t would be going to 15


### college and moving into a new home and wanting 16


### another child and afraid that they might lose 17


### their job, and if they didn’t lose it they would 18


### be cut down to 2 days a week instead of 5 days a 19



### week. 20


### So, early on, I set several foundation al 21



### marks, and I made statements to people, and I 22

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### said the foundation that I will protect these 1


### consumers. I'll do all in my power to do that, 2


### and I will see to it that the rates, the utility 3


### rates will be kept about the same as they are, 4


### and certainly not going up, and I will focus on 5


### trying to create jobs. And I know when you 6


### create a job, it improves the economy. Over and 7


### over, the people said, "I want my children to be 8



### able to work here in Alabama. I don't want them 9



### to have to go somewhere, and we ar e afraid that 10



### that may not be the case." 11


### So then the third pillar that I had, I 12


### said, "I'll stand against the new regulations 13



### that will hinder," because the word had been out 14


### that it is a necessity that the rates would 15



### skyrocket. That's a term of fear, w hen you're 16


### dealing with people who are trying to make plans 17


### with their families and with what they're going 18


### to do, and when you see the fear, I said, "Well, 19


### I'll fight against that. I'll fight against 20


### those regulations. I'll see to it that 21


### everything tha t Alabama can do so that we can 22

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### maintain what we have, I'll do that." 1



### Then, on July the 15th, the people sent a 2


### strong message of rejection to these regulations 3



### from the EPA, and they elected me. They 4


### demonstrated a clear understanding of the 5



### difference between affordable energy and a 6


### healthy economy. So I believe that I carry a 7


### mandate from them and with me, and here today I'm 8


### beginning to fulfill my promise to them, that I 9


### will go, and I will talk about that, and I will 10


### take their plight to whomever I can get to 11



### listen. 12


### Not only is it to keep these rates low 13


### that's critical for the families, but growing 14


### industry and attracting new jobs in our state is 15


### very critical. We're starting to do a good job. 16


### We're having businesses come into our state, and 17



### I'm a firm believer that the state of Alabama, 18



### and Alabamians, should be able to utilize our 19



### God

- given resources, and we should be able to 20



### utilize them in a manner in which determined is 21



### best for our state. We don't want to leave 22

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### others out, but let us determ ine that, and let us 1



### work through that. 2


### I'm really focused on doing that. We do 3


### not think that these blanket policies, developed 4


### by the Federal Government, can help us. We think 5


### that they are designed not to help us. They're 6


### designed to hurt us, that w e cannot use our 7


### natural resources in a way that we would like to. 8


### We have many companies that have their 9



### eye on the state of Alabama, and we've started 10


### getting some of those companies, and we tell them 11



### that we have an abundance of natural resources, 12



### an d well them that we will do everything in our 13


### power, that they can count on a fixed rate and 14



### can count on a natural resource

-- electricity or 15


### natural gas or whatever it is

-- at the time when 16


### they need it most. Most of the industry really 17



### needs to start the process going at about 9 18



### o'clock. So we tell them we can furnish that, 19


### and we can do it if we do not have people from 20


### the outside regulating us to hinder that. 21


### So I'm really excited that I am going to 22

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### have a chance, and I will be able to talk to 1



### thos e people, and I will be able to talk to those 2


### companies, and I will assure them, and affirm to 3


### them that I will vote that way, that I will help 4


### in any way that I can. We have scientists out 5


### there, and we have a real good scientist named 6


### John Christy who l ives in Alabama, Dr. Christy. 7



### I've attended several of his seminars and I 8


### recommend that you do too, if you have an 9


### opportunity. 10


### He is an awfully gifted person, and he 11


### keeps up with all of the energy facts, and he 12


### keeps up with the CO2, and he tells us how much 13


### it really affects the nation and how much it 14


### affects the ozone, and it's got facts and facts 15


### and figures. And he's invited me to come and to 16


### sit down, and to take part when the scientists 17


### meet. He's at the University of Alabama in 18



### Huntsville, a nd it's exciting to see the 19


### businesspeople that come and talk to him. It's 20


### exciting to see when they come down and say, 21


### "What can you do? How can you promise us that 22

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### these things will not happen, this overreach in 1



### the Obama administration?" And I said, "The one 2


### promise that I can make you is that I will not 3


### vote for that. I will vote for keeping the 4


### rates, keeping what we have like it is." 5



### Most of the people do not know that there 6


### has been $2.5 billion spent already on the steam 7


### plants in Alabama. The re will be another $1 8


### billion with the new regulations that are coming 9



### out. Well, who's to pay for that? Where does 10


### that money come from? How do you plug that in? 11


### How can you attract industry when

-- I didn't 12



### hear you. 13



### I'm sorry. I thought you were t alking to 14


### me. But how, without us knowing, how can we 15



### plan? How can we do that when we've been 16


### threatened by a war on coal? People are afraid, 17



### and the industries are afraid. 18


### So I will stand my ground. I've told the 19



### coal associations, and I've told the people, and 20



### I've told the industries that want to come to 21



### Alabama that they can count on me and my vote, 22

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### and I'll certainly

-- did it blink? 1



### MS. BANISTER: No. I think that it's not 2


### working, so I think that the 5 minutes has 3


### expired, though. 4



### MR. BEEKER : I didn't know. Ladies and 5


### gentlemen, to put it very simply, if these new 6


### guidelines are enacted, the EPA will forever be 7


### known as the Employment Prevention Agency in the 8



### state of Alabama. 9


### I'm sorry. I didn't mean to overextend. 10



### MS. BANISTER: No, th at's fine. Thank 11



### you so much for your comments. 12



### MR. BEEKER: Yes, ma'am. 13



### MS. BANISTER: Do you guys have any 14


### clarifying comments or questions? Thank you so 15


### much. That's fine. Thank you. 16


### Do we want to see if that's going to 17



### work, or do we have the ot her one? Greg, do we 18



### have the other one? 19



### Okay. Mr. Reynolds. Would you state your 20


### name and spell it for the court reporter? 21


### MR. REYNOLDS: Yes. My name is Paul 22

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### Reynolds, P

- a

- u

- l R

- e

- y

- n

- o

- l

- d

- s, and I, too, am 1



### a native Alabamian. I'm the founder of Re ynolds 2


### Technical Associates, a family

- owned RF and 3


### broadcast engineering business, located in the 4


### greater Birmingham area. It is my pleasure to 5


### serve as the Republican National Committeeman 6


### representing the state of Alabama on the 7


### Republican National Comm ittee, and as chairman of 8


### a public policy organization called the Alabama 9



### Free Market Alliance. 10


### Thank you for the opportunity to testify 11


### today. I do stand here today, or sit here today, 12


### in opposition, full opposition to the new 13


### regulations the EPA is pro posing under the Clean 14


### Air Act. Speaking as one who has first

- hand 15


### experience with adverse federal regulations, it 16


### is my firm belief that if proper consideration is 17


### given to the effects these regulations will have 18


### with the working individuals in our state and 19


### other states, also, these regulations will be 20



### shelved and never revisited. 21


### Adverse effects from excessive government 22

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### regulations are both primary and secondary. In 1



### other words, there are intended and unintended 2


### circumstances. It is economically im possible to 3


### demonstrate one economic gain ever realized that 4


### was brought about by an increase in federal 5


### regulations of the free market. 6


### Let me say that again. It is impossible 7



### to score an economic consideration that increased 8



### the wealth of the common wo rking person in the 9



### free market, that was brought about as a result 10


### of increased government regulations. These 11


### regulations stand to have a crippling effect on 12



### the well

- being of working families in Alabama and 13


### in the Southeast, all the way from West Virgin ia. 14



### First, there are more than 16,000 15


### families who depend on the coal industry for 16



### their livelihood. Coal is one of Alabama's most 17



### abundant natural resources we have, as a state, 18



### and it is also in the exercise of our 19


### sovereignty. We really have the righ t, as a 20



### state, to make our own decisions until our 21


### decisions start adversely affecting other. 22

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### There's nothing been proved yet that this is the 1



### case. 2


### And what's happening, we're making a 3


### villain out of the coal industry and hard

- working 4



### men and women wh o are in the coal fields, 5


### working, and it's being done by people who are 6


### trying to make political hay at Georgetown 7


### cocktail parties of the liberal elite by shutting 8


### down completely it's simplicity and unacceptable 9



### for our nation to do this to the coal ind ustry. 10


### Second, eliminating coal is an option for 11


### electrical generation. It will make it virtually 12


### impossible for Alabama to maintain its low

- price 13


### utilities. This is one of the things that we 14


### have in our pocket that when we go to call on an 15


### industry tha t's wanting to relocate to the state, 16



### and we've got several examples of that that have 17


### happened recently, with billion

- dollar plants, 18


### one of the things that we have in our back pocket 19



### is low

- cost electricity. This is going to take 20


### away that, with over

- bur densome regulations. 21


### I hope you're fully aware of the impact 22

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### that these regulations will have on hundreds of 1


### thousands of family budgets in the state of 2



### Alabama alone. 3


### And then, finally, the pressure point 4


### that I wish to highlight will be the impact on 5


### the job creators, and I am one of those, as a 6


### small business man. The job creators are the 7


### ones that have to pick up the additional cost. 8



### We're blessed, in Alabama, to have low

- cost 9


### operations. It puts more capital back into the 10



### economy. 11



### A scary new concept has risen in the 12


### American free market economy. It is the 13


### misguided idea that government involvement 14



### through ever

- increasing regulations brings 15


### increased market value. That is not right. It 16


### is only 180 degrees out of phase. Today, the 17



### free marke t struggles under the gargantuan load 18


### of a federal register that is daily packed with 19


### new government regulations. Electrical 20


### generation by means of coal cannot and must not 21



### be added to that mix. 22

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### Finally, I'd like to make this statement. 1



### Whether it's unr est in the Ukraine, turmoil in 2



### the Middle East, or the crisis at our border, 3


### President Obama and others of regulators should 4


### be concerned about a potential world at war, that 5


### a government pushed war on coal. I implore you 6


### to consider this when making thes e decisions. 7



### Thank you. 8



### MS. BANISTER: Thank you both for your 9


### comments. Thank you for coming out tonight. 10


### Thank you. Now I'd like to invite up Dan 11


### Friedman and also Gretchen Elsner. Thank you 12


### both for coming out this evening. Mr. Friedman, 13



### would you start and just state your name and 14


### spell it for the court reporter please? 15


### MR. FRIEDMAN: Of course. My name is Dan 16



### Friedman, D

- a

- n F as in Frank

- r

- i

- e

- d

- m

- a

- n. 17


### Before I really get into my comments, just thank 18


### you for being here tonight and giving u s the 19


### opportunity to be heard. 20


### I have lived in Atlanta since the early 21


### '80s, when I moved to Atlanta from Birmingham, 22

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### Alabama, where I was born and raised. I lived in 1


### Birmingham at the height of steel

- making, and 2


### therefore, when the air quality was the p oorest. 3


### Even though the particulate counts were more than 4


### double the national average, and lung diseases, 5


### including asthma, were among the highest in the 6


### country, companies including iron and steel, in 7


### and around Birmingham refused to make any 8



### amelioratio n. I remember well using a 9


### handkerchief to cover my mouth and nose as a 10


### result of the pollution. 11



### Because of this inaction, in 1971, U.S. 12


### District Judge Sam C. Pointer issued an 13


### injunction on 23 local companies, including the 14



### steel plants, and prompted th e EPA, for the first 15



### time, to utilize the Clean Air Act to shut down 16



### the steel plants, and demonstrated how the 17


### Federal Government could act in emergency 18


### situations to protect, in this case, the citizens 19


### of Birmingham and the surrounding areas. While 20



### Birm ingham still has much to do, the improvement 21


### as a result of the implementation of the CAA has 22

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### made a vast improvement. 1


### Now, 43 years later, the EPA is now 2


### evaluating another emergency threat to the health 3


### and quality of Americans. Like the steel 4


### industry in Birmingham, the industry is pushing 5


### large amounts of carbon dioxide into the 6


### atmosphere, ignore the science that the vast 7


### majority of environmental scientists believe, and 8



### the long

- term repercussions to the citizens of 9


### Georgia, the Southeast, the natio n, and the 10



### world. 11


### The Huffington

- Post, within the last 12


### week, has recently reported that if current 13


### trends continue, mean high summer temperatures 14


### will increase 9 degrees in Georgia, to an average 15


### high of 96 degrees Fahrenheit. Given this 16



### change, peaches, the agricultural commodity for 17


### which Georgia is most known, and requires a mean 18


### summertime temperature in the hottest months of 19


### no more than upper 80s, will mean that Georgia 20


### will no longer be the Peach State. 21


### Indeed, many of the top ten agricultural 22

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### pro ducts produced in Georgia, including chickens, 1



### eggs, pecans, and corn, as well as the peaches, 2


### will suffer due to prolonged high temperatures 3



### above the mid 90s. Given this threat, the 4


### government must step in to protect individuals, 5



### and because no one else will. 6


### While I will not live long enough to see 7


### the worst effects of continuing expulsion of CO2 8


### into our atmosphere, my children and 9


### grandchildren will. Each generation has a sacred 10


### obligation to leave a better country and quality 11


### of life to succeeding generations than what that 12


### generation inherited. 13



### I am here because I have that 14


### responsibility to the future generations of my 15


### family, and, indeed, to all families. I am here 16


### this evening to do what I can to that end, and 17



### therefore I urge you to regulat e carbon dioxide 18


### emissions so that future generations will reap 19


### the benefits of our taking action to prevent them 20


### from living in a hell of our making. 21



### Thank you. 22

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### MS. BANISTER: Thank you. Ms. Elsner, 1


### would you state your name as well as spell it for 2



### the court reporter? 3


### MS. ELSNER: My name is Gretchen Elsner, 4


### and it's spelled E

- l

- s

- n

- e

- r. I live in Athens, 5


### Georgia. I have been riding a bicycle since I 6


### was very young. I was born in Portland, Maine, 7


### and I will never forget when I moved down to 8


### Georgia, when I was about 8, and I went outside 9


### to try to ride my bicycle, I had my first asthma 10



### attack. 11



### I spent the better part of the youth that 12


### I spent in Georgia suffering severely from 13


### asthma, but I've also been a very committed 14


### cyclist, because I know that actually 50 percent 15


### of our emissions come from transportation, and a 16



### lot of that is our own choices, to drive 17



### ourselves to go get what we want, whenever we 18


### want it, which is usually now. 19



### And a lot of industries are catered 20


### towards meeting that kind of dem and for our 21


### private comfort and convenience. So I've been a 22

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### full

- time cyclist despite my asthma, for the last 1


### 14 years. I moved to British Columbia, which is 2



### not only a nuclear

- free zone but provides all of 3


### its electricity from hydroelectric power, and I 4


### didn't suffer from asthma for the 10 years that I 5


### lived there, and I came back to Georgia once to 6


### visit my folks and I ended up in the emergency 7



### room because I couldn't breathe. 8



### Another environmental health effect that 9



### I've suffered from was when I was 1 3 years old 10


### and my ovaries exploded from cysts that had been 11


### growing, due to toxicity in my system, and that's 12



### when I learned how detrimental the effects of 13


### nuclear pollution are to the health and 14


### reproductive systems of women, and it is terribly 15


### frighteni ng for me to think of the billions of 16


### gallons nuclear waste that have been dumped into 17


### the oceans by Japan, and we have an incredibly 18


### strong oceanic current that is throwing major 19


### storms up onto the coasts of not just our 20



### American cities but also cities ar ound the world. 21


### We, as people, are responsible for the 22

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### kind of waste that is created in the pursuit of 1


### our comfort and convenience. Power that's being 2



### generated by coal and by nuclear, so that we can 3



### watch television and run our air conditioners as 4



### it gets hotter is having detrimental effects that 5


### will last hundreds of thousands of years into the 6



### future, and the effects are unknown. 7



### These are not economic considerations, of 8


### course, but not only was I born in America, in 9



### Portland, Maine, but I was bor n on this beautiful 10


### planet, and I love it here. It's a resplendent, 11


### magnificent world to live in, and I feel called 12


### by the power of my convictions and my awe and the 13


### majesty of life to do what I can, as a young 14


### woman, and as I grow older, praise be that I get 15


### to be an old woman and not see my children born 16



### with massive birth defects. 17


### I'm very committed to environmental 18


### action, regardless of government regulation. 19


### I've built myself a solar

- powered house out of 20


### recycled materials that can filter water co ming 21



### out of any surface stream. We get a lot of 22

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### pollution from fracking. You might not agree 1



### with the climate science of the warm Earth, but 2


### you definitely see a lot of pollution, and we've 3


### got that continent of garbage in the Pacific. 4



### I recently made a bicycle trip, a couple 5


### of years ago, down to Mobile, Alabama, where 6



### there is an old salt mine that had been out of 7


### commission, and they pumped it full of water, up 8


### to about 1,700 psi, if I remember correctly, and 9


### realized that this underground cavern, whi ch 10


### wasn't being put to use and was a relic of an 11


### industry that was gone, could actually be used 12


### somehow to further the energy infrastructure of 13



### Alabama. 14


### So they erected a wind turbine, which 15


### powers an air compressor. They created an 16



### underground storage battery, which then runs a 17


### generator that feeds constant electricity into 18


### the grid, and by implementing the kind of 19


### regulations that the EPA is putting forth here 20


### now, it encourages free market to find smarter, 21



### better, more innovative solutions that will not 22

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### only attract progressive, forward

- thinking people 1



### to the area, who want to live in a clean 2


### environment, a place where they can raise their 3


### kids, where they're not going to be taking them 4



### to the emergency room because they can't breathe 5



### every other week , or you're watching your 13

- 6



### year

- old daughter writhe in internal bleeding. 7


### You want to go and live in a place that's 8


### beautiful and healthy and clean, and attracting 9


### all kinds of unique business opportunities. 10



### The solar panels for my house were made 11



### ri ght here in Norcross, Georgia. They weren't 12


### made in China. They were made right down the 13


### street. And the money that I earned right here 14


### in this state went to pay for them, and put those 15



### people to work. 16


### I've been to the mountaintop coal

- mining 17



### removal s ites and I've seen the billion gallons 18


### of sludge that are uphill from schools. Like the 19


### fertilizer plant in Texas that burned down, it 20


### leaves citizens up to not only try to find a way 21


### to meet their expenses, but also police 22

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### industries that seem more conce rned with their 1



### bottom line than the health of the communities 2


### that they live in. 3


### I consider myself lucky to live in a 4



### federated government, where the Federal 5



### Government establishes a foundation of laws to 6


### protect all of the citizens, and the states are 7



### t hen allowed to build right on top of that 8


### foundation. You can't put people in the 9


### basement, but you can make life better and better 10


### and better. And by setting limits on some of the 11



### more dangerous aspects of what people do and 12


### their own private choices, e ncourages people to 13


### make better choices that then set an example 14


### across the whole country, and, ultimately, across 15


### the world, because we're all in this together, 16


### and it's too precious of a life for us to be 17



### cavalier with. 18



### So thank you very much. 19



### MS. BANI STER: Thank you for your 20



### comments, both of you all. Do you all have any 21


### clarifying comments or questions? If you do 22

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### written comments, if you could provide some 1


### information on the Mobile, the example that you 2


### provided, that would be great. 3



### MS. ELSNER: Yeah. My pleasure. 4



### MS. BANISTER: Thank you. I would now 5



### like to invite Rich Rusk, R

- u

- s

- k

-- is he in 6



### here?

-- and also Jennifer Pramuk, P

- r

- a

- m

- u

- k. 7


### Thank you both for joining us tonight. 8


### We appreciate you being here. So we're going to 9


### begin with y ou, Mr. Rusk. 10



### MR. RUSK: Yes, ma'am. 11



### MS. BANISTER: If you could state your 12


### name and spell it for the court reporter please. 13


### MR. RUSK: My name is Rich Rusk. That's 14



### R

- i

- c

- h R

- u

- s

- k. This isn't going to help me. 15


### I'm from Athens, Georgia. I'm represen ting two 16


### groups, the Oconee River Chapter of Trout 17


### Unlimited, the Climate Change Committee, and the 18


### Georgia Climate Change Coalition, both based in 19



### Athens. 20


### And I must say that I'm carrying this fly 21


### rod up here because I'm speaking on behalf of the 22

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### fly f ishermen. Thanks for allowing me to bring 1



### this in here. Fishermen are rather dubious 2


### witnesses, in terms of our own credibility. I 3


### think you all know that fishermen are born liars. 4


### We lie about our fish, and if we're capable of 5


### doing that we're capable of lying about anything, 6


### so automatically we have a credibility issue 7



### built in. 8


### Trout Unlimited, our parent organization, 9


### issued a very powerful statement on behalf of the 10


### Clean Power Act. I'm representing 1 of 400 11


### chapters, 1 of 155,000 Trout Unlimited anglers, 12


### and I have to say there is growing grassroots 13


### support for this action, and stronger action, in 14


### general, on climate. I won't make the claim that 15



### we're all there. Our fellows tend to be somewhat 16


### conservative in nature. They're Republicans as 17



### wel l as Democrats. 18


### Our grassroots fishers are scattered, but 19


### increasingly we're being impacted by climate 20


### change. We see the impacts on our home waters. 21


### We're getting more and more involved with this 22

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### issue. There are 33 million hunters and 1



### fishermen in this country. That's a powerful 2


### constituency, and I'm going to talk a little bit 3


### about us, with the hope that we, too, will really 4


### weigh in in a big way on this issue, further down 5



### the road. 6


### Our groups came together in 2009, and 7


### published a group called "Beyond Season's End." 8



### This includes Ducks Unlimited, Trout Unlimited, 9


### Pheasants Forever, 11 sporting organizations, and 10


### it was a powerful statement on behalf of the 11


### growing threat posed by climate change to our 12


### fish and our game populations. 13



### I came to t his issue thanks, in part, to 14



### my father, Dean Rusk, former Secretary of State 15


### for the Kennedy and Johnson administrations. You 16


### might recognize the kinship by my bald head. My 17


### dad sat me down in 1994, and said, "Rich, global 18


### warming will be the challenge for your 19


### generation. It's a very difficult one. It will 20


### require average citizens to believe the 21


### projections of scientists." He also said that it 22

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### would require an unprecedented level of global 1


### cooperation to make progress. He said, "This is 2



### probably a m ore difficult issue than our 40

- year 3



### standoff with the Soviet Union and the threat of 4


### nuclear war." But he said, "This one is yours," 5


### and I quote, "You better get after it." 6


### He died right after that, and that was 7



### 1994. That should have been enough to get me 8


### into it. I did what many Americans have done on 9



### this issue. I kicked the can down the road for 10


### another 15 years. What finally got me into it, 11


### what finally got our fishers into it was that 12


### summer drought of 2006. Fish died in north 13


### Georgia. Stre am temperatures in the 14



### Chattahoochee got up to 84 degrees that summer. 15



### Those beautiful, mature trout in the Nacoochee 16



### Bend section of the Chattahoochee started to roll 17


### up dead in that super

- heated water. 18


### We lost fingerlings in the state fish 19



### hatcheries that summer, and we heard the stories 20


### of raccoons and otters just had a field day 21


### feasting on these trout. Typical stream flow in 22

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### August for the Chattahoochee was 125 cubic feet 1



### per second. It fell to 19 feet per second. In 2



### essence, the river ran out o f water. That got us 3


### into it. They lost 95 percent of their trout 4



### that summer, an estimated

-- a lot of this is 5


### anecdotal, but we see the impacts, we hear it, 6



### and we called TU National. 7



### They sent a young man named Scott Lazear 8



### down here to talk about what was going on, and he 9


### spoke for 2 hours about the climate change 10


### impacts on our fish all across the country. 11


### Nobody walked out. Nobody got mad. We just sat 12



### there and took it. We formed our own Climate 13


### Change Committee in the aftermath of that 14



### meeti ng, and, in 2011, we filled the Ecology 15


### School Auditorium at the University of Georgia 16


### with people. 17


### We were wanting to create a climate 18


### change coalition for the state of Georgia, and it 19



### was fishermen that were called for this action, 20



### and these folks were incredulous. But we had a 21


### good group. We've created that coalition. They 22

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### assigned me to a group with Trout Unlimited 1


### that's doing strategic planning. They claim 2


### we're the most active chapter on this issue

-- 3



### what is that, a 1

- minute signal or what? 4



### M S. BANISTER: It's basically that your 5


### time is up, but go ahead. Take another minute to 6



### wrap up. 7


### MR. RUSK: Okay. I'll wrap it up real 8


### quick. I love Trout Unlimited, one reason being 9


### our fishermen are all over the political 10


### spectrum, but it doesn't mat ter. We go down the 11


### road together. We go fishing together. We stay 12


### together. It's a wonderful organization, and all 13


### I can say is we're going to stay with this issue 14


### together. The impacts are increasing, all over 15


### the country, and obviously it's becomin g 16


### increasingly aware to us that climate change is 17


### something we've got to deal with. 18



### I thank you very much for the 19


### opportunity. 20



### MS. BANISTER: Thank you. Thank you. 21


### Jennifer, would you state your name as well as 22

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### spell it for the court reporter? 1



### MS. PRA MUK: My name is Jennifer Pramuk. 2



### J

- e

- n

- n

- i

- f

- e

- r, and the last name is P

- r

- a

- m

- u

3


### k. And I just first of all want to say thanks 4


### for listening to the public's comments on 5


### everything. I'm a recent graduate from Kennesaw 6


### State University. I got my degree in 7


### environmental science and policy, so that's where 8


### I really started learning about these type of 9


### issues and what sparked my interest to be here 10



### today. 11



### But I would first like to start out with 12



### a quote. "Never doubt that a small group of 13



### thoughtful, co mmitted, citizens can change the 14


### world. Indeed, it is the only thing that ever 15



### has," and that's by Margaret Mead. Today I'm 16


### speaking as a thoughtful citizen with hopes to 17


### see changes made in our world, and right now the 18


### planet is experiencing climate cha nge in an 19


### alarming rate. About 95 percent of today's 20


### scientists have conducted studies finding that 21



### the main cause is a drastic increase in the level 22

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### of carbon dioxide pollution in our atmosphere, 1


### and has attributed it to mostly anthropogenic 2



### causes. 3



### As a thoughtful citizen, I believe that 4


### the best thing for our nation would be to reduce 5


### emissions emitted from the largest point source, 6


### pollution, of carbon dioxide pollution, and 7


### that's our energy facilities, and you all know 8



### that, of course. But not onl y would it be a 9


### great start to reducing worldwide emissions but 10


### it would also help make our nation's air cleaner. 11


### Most of the air pollution in my state

-- 12


### I actually live in Woodstock, Georgia right now

- 13



### - comes from coal

- fired power plants, of which we 14



### h ave the first and third dirtiest in the nation. 15


### A reduction in CO2 would mean a huge change in my 16


### state and my community, because, for me, 17



### personally, I have asthma, and so I can't go 18


### outside and run on certain days when we have bad 19


### air quality. And I kn ow that it's not just me 20



### out there. There are tons of other people who 21


### have experienced the same health effects from bad 22

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### air quality, and I think that if we reduce the 1


### carbon dioxide from energy

- producing facilities, 2


### then it would really help. 3



### And also, reducing emissions would open 4


### up opportunities for more clean energy, like 5


### maybe solar or wind or whatever we find works for 6


### us, and that would help increase employment. I 7


### know Georgia has very big wind capabilities, so 8


### there's definitely room for growth in the science 9


### and engineering fields, there's new growth, and 10


### also we also have a manufacturing plant, so that 11


### would help. I know Georgia doesn't have any coal 12


### mining, but that's definitely something that 13



### could employ people, also. 14



### But as a thoughtful c itizen, I would 15


### definitely support the EPA in passing this bill. 16



### MS. BANISTER: Thank you for your 17


### comments. Do we have any clarifying comments or 18


### questions? Thank you both. We appreciate your 19


### comments and appreciate you coming out tonight. 20



### I would no w like to invite Sam Elliott 21


### and Terry Welsher. Thank you both for coming 22

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### tonight. We appreciate you both being here. Mr. 1


### Elliott, would you please start to state your 2



### name and spell your name? 3


### MS. ELLIOTT: Good evening, ladies. I am 4



### Samuel W. Elliot t. That's Sam E

- l

- l

- i

- o

- t

- t. I 5


### live in Athens. I'm a retired federal employee, 6


### but more about that later. My outdoor interests 7


### are gardening and fishing. In 2010, 2011, and 8



### 2012, summer weather was bad for both. So, with 9



### lakes too low to launch my bo at, fish dying in 10



### streams and in hatcheries, and no home

- grown 11


### tomatoes, it got my attention, and who wouldn't 12



### notice? 13



### Athens had a severe drought and water 14



### conservation restrictions. We were forced to be 15



### careful and flush only when necessary, catch 16



### wate r in buckets when we took showers, and we 17


### were able to keep some plants alive. Our local 18


### Trout Unlimited chapter began to consider the 19


### obvious questions

-- where would we fish, and are 20


### trout in our future? North Georgia is the 21


### southern tip of the cold wa ter habitat for trout, 22

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### and the Department of Natural Resources

- stocked 1


### streams are really the marginal habitat, even 2


### during good rainfall summers. 3


### As the Trout Unlimited chapter considered 4


### these questions, we formed a study committee and 5



### found some answer s there in Athens, at the 6


### University of Georgia. We hosted discussions of 7


### climate change and we learned. Agricultural 8


### scientists at the University are working to 9



### develop more heat

- and drought

- tolerant varieties 10



### of plants, tomatoes, and other crops. 11



### A gricultural scientists are studying 12


### citrus for South Georgia, and recommending fewer 13


### apples for north Georgia. Other research on 14


### climate change includes subjects from migratory 15


### birds to poison ivy. Science has no doubt, and 16



### these scientists have no doubt , about climate 17


### change. They deal with the effects and think of 18



### the future. 19


### Climate change is real. They're trying 20


### to provide food and prepare for the future. The 21


### only question about climate change is what can we 22

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### do? To those who say that weather is a lways 1


### changing and mankind is not the cause, I say, 2


### remember L.A. smog, China today, and baloney. 3



### Coal was the fuel of the '50s, the 1850s 4


### through the 1950s, until London learned that they 5


### couldn't live with it. They had to stop heating 6



### with coal. There 's no such thing as clean coal. 7


### Clean coal was a term invented by Senator 8


### McConnell's fundraisers. Natural gas is only a 9


### transition fuel for cleaner energy if fracking 10


### and collection is done by the best practices. 11


### Cleaner energy exists. 12



### In addition t o the well

- known results of 13


### air pollution from burning coal, let's consider 14


### the mess in North Carolina. Although previously 15


### warned and slapped on the wrist for the dangers 16


### posed by their coal ash sludge ponds, Duke Energy 17


### managed to spill 39,000 tons

-- t ons

-- of coal 18


### ash into the Dan River on February 2nd. Duke has 19



### dredged and removed 3,000 tons, and say that the 20



### river is normal. Duke has 31 other coal ash 21


### ponds at 14 sites in North Carolina. Repeating, 22

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### there is no such thing as clean coal, from 1



### mount aintop destruction to use and even after 2



### it's used. 3


### China is investing in better energy 4



### sources and technology for the future. The 5


### United States should be leading but we are not. 6


### It's easier and quicker for an authoritative 7


### government like China's to ch ange policy than it 8


### is for a democracy to reach a majority think. We 9


### must recognize the problem and go to work. We 10



### need to conserve water and natural resources. 11


### The ridiculous proposal of a coal

- fired 12


### power plant in Sandersville, Georgia, drawing 13



### wate r from the Oconee River 20

- plus miles away is 14


### hopefully history, and an example of one of the 15


### worst ideas for coal and electricity we've heard 16


### lately. Wind, solar, and atomic energy are all 17



### better investments for our future. Reduce 18


### pollution and save lif e. 19


### To the EPA, collectively and 20


### individually, I say give us your best science. 21


### Ignore howls of the ignorant. As a former 22

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### Internal Revenue employee, I know that you will 1


### be criticized by politicians and on talk shows 2


### for old fogies. That's sad, but do your job. Do 3


### your work. Give us, the United States, your best 4


### science and your best work. Then, when you look 5


### in the mirror to apply your makeup or shave, you 6


### can see integrity and you'll know that you did 7


### your best, and I know you will, and I thank yo u. 8



### MS. BANISTER: Thank you for your 9



### comments. Mr. Welsher, would you please state 10


### your name as well as spell it for the court 11



### reporter? 12


### MR. WELSHER: Right. So my name is Terry 13



### Welsher. That's T

- e

- r

- r

- y W

- e

- l

- s

- h

- e

- r, and I 14



### would like to thank the EP A for giving all of us 15


### this opportunity to speak. This is the first 16


### time I've spoken at a hearing of this kind at 17


### all, so I'm learning as I watch, and hopefully I 18



### can contribute. 19


### We've heard from a lot of the testimony 20



### here there's a lot of anecdotal exp eriences that 21


### confirm the effects of climate change. I come at 22

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### this as a scientist. I have a Ph.D. in chemical 1


### physics. I am retired after 25 years in Bell 2



### Laboratories, and I know what science is and what 3


### science isn't, and I also tend to be very 4



### skept ical. 5


### So my personal journey on this was to 6



### spend 2

- 1/2 years on my own, studying the 7


### literature, learning about climatology and 8


### climate measurements and experiments and history, 9


### to reach my own conclusion. I entered it with no 10


### preconceived notion, bec ause that's what a good 11


### scientist is supposed to do. 12



### The final result of all of that is that I 13


### am now personally convinced that the planet is 14


### warming, it's primarily caused by the burning of 15


### fossil fuels, and that the consequences will, in 16



### fact, be deva stating for future generations if we 17


### don't take action now. We said we were going to 18


### stop at 350. We said we were going to stop at 19


### 400. Five hundred looks like a disaster, and yet 20


### we've done nothing to stop that. 21


### This is why I'm speaking here in supp ort 22

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### of these regulations that are being proposed, 1


### because all other options that we might like to 2


### do instead of it have been blocked by Congress. 3


### Congress has just been unbelievably inactive in 4



### this area, and we know a lot of the reasons for 5



### it, but it's a fact of life, and this is why I'm 6


### delighted that the administration is proposing 7


### these rules and starting this process. 8



### I have a lot of conservative friends, 9


### and, like them, I would prefer that ultimately we 10



### deal with this on a market

- based solution. 11



### Re gulations are kind of a last resort. If we had 12



### market

- based solutions, I think we'd all be a lot 13


### happier. The best that's been proposed is a 14



### carbon tax, a revenue

- neutral carbon tax placed 15



### on the wellhead or the entry of carbon

- equivalent 16


### products into t he United States, with all of the 17


### money going back into households, but that takes 18


### legislation. We can't do that now and we can't 19


### wait for the legislation, so that's why I see 20


### this as the best thing that we can do now. 21


### So I strongly support the emissions 22

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### reductions in the power plants that have been 1


### proposed. In fact, I think we need to make them 2


### stronger. Going from 30 to 35 percent, for 3


### instance, would be a good idea. If we can go 4



### further than that, that would also be a good 5



### idea. The reason for tha t is that the 30 percent 6


### is only going to do part of what we need to do. 7


### If the power companies can look at this issue 8


### seriously, I'm sure they can do the 35 percent. 9


### So I cannot emphasize strongly enough 10


### that there is no doubt that global warming is a 11



### m atter of science and not opinion. There is just 12


### so much science to back this up, and it's 13


### frustrating to many of us to see that the vast, 14


### vast, vast majority, 97 percent or more of 15


### scientists, have looked at this issue, they've 16


### studied it well, they've be en skeptical about 17



### each other's work, peer

- reviewed it, checked it, 18


### reproduced it, and this should carry the day. 19


### Unfortunately, it is not, and as a scientist who 20


### has been publishing papers in refereed journals 21



### for close 40 years, and I know the work that goes 22

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### into it, this has to be tremendously frustrating 1



### to the scientists who have done all this work. 2


### So, really, the work on this issue should 3


### be nonpartisan. It should be dealt with as a 4


### risk for all of us, not something that might 5



### benefit or harm a fe w people. The rules and 6


### requirements that emerge from this process should 7


### be based on scientific knowledge, not political 8



### considerations or in calls to maintain an 9


### arbitrary economic status quo. 10


### It is true there will be changes and some 11


### hardships. Som e sources of power will have to be 12


### phased out. This is a fact of life, as we move 13



### to a green economy, based on renewable, low

14


### emission energy sources. I do hope that the 15


### states will be given some latitude to innovate in 16



### the rules that are written, and th at we not fall 17


### into the trap that was mentioned by some of the 18


### earlier speakers, of the government coming down 19



### too hard. There is room for innovation. There 20



### could even be local or statewide revenue in 21


### neutral carbon taxes implemented, and I hope the 22

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### regu lations will allow for that. 1



### So, in conclusion, the risk of climate 2


### change is one that we actually do not need to 3



### take. It's a risk we can avoid. We know what 4


### the solution is. We just need to do it. 5


### Drastically reduce the dumping of CO2 and other 6



### gree nhouse gases into the atmosphere and do it 7


### now, or as soon as possible. The EPA now is the 8



### warrior on the front lines of this battle, and 9


### what I'm seeing is a groundswell of awareness 10


### happening in the country, and more and more 11


### people are beginning to see the light, and I 12


### support your efforts to keep the Earth in balance 13


### for future generations. 14


### And I leave you with this statistic that 15


### I heard recently, that sums it up for me, and 16


### that is all 12 world's monthly heat records have 17



### been set since 1997, and ha lf of them in this 18



### decade. All of the cold records happened all 19


### before 1917. Nothing could be clearer. It used 20


### to be colder; it's getting hotter. 21



### Thank you. 22

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### MS. BANISTER: Thank you both. Do you 1


### all have any clarifying comments or questions? 2



### Thank y ou so much for coming out tonight. 3


### So we're going to take not even a 5

- 4


### minute break. We're just going to take a stretch 5


### break, and we're going to change out the chairs. 6


### Fred Thompson is going to come in and share the 7


### remainder of the hearing. And so we 'll just take 8



### a 1

- minute. You can stand up and stretch. And I 9



### would invite Bonni DeMarco

-- is Bonni in? Okay

- 10



### - to come on up, and Dr. Yomi Noibi. Is she in? 11



### N

- o

- i

- b

- i. Oh, I'm sorry. Thank you. 12


### Okay. A little change in plans. We have 13


### additional p eople that have signed up to speak 14


### this evening, and we want to provide everyone an 15


### opportunity to speak. If you've come out tonight 16


### to speak, we're going to stay here and make sure 17


### that we have and provide the forum for you to 18


### speak. So we're going to o pen up the other room, 19


### so Fred is going to go over and start chairing a 20


### parallel hearing in Room B. But we're going to 21


### continue. If you have A on your card, then you 22

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### will be called here, in the room that you're in. 1


### So we will have two parallel hearings going on 2


### for the remainder of the evening, to allow 3


### everyone an opportunity to speak. 4


### So with that, Ms. DeMarco, if you would 5


### please state your name and spell it for the court 6



### reporter? 7


### MS. DEMARCO: Hello. My name is Bonni 8



### DeMarco, B

- o

- n

- n

- i D

- e

- M

- a

- r

- c

- o. I am a retail 9


### pharmacist with over 30 years' experience. I 10


### have seen a lot of changes in my profession. 11


### When I started pharmacy, we did not even use 12


### computers. Hard to believe that long, long ago 13


### they were not mainstream. 14


### Another major change th at I have seen is 15



### the increased use of asthma, COPD, and heat

16


### related illnesses. The impact of carbon 17


### pollution isn't a political issue. It's a fact. 18


### When medical science tells us, as it does today, 19


### that the health of our communities is being 20


### impacted b y something we have the power to 21


### change, it would be irresponsible to stay silent. 22

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### As a medical professional, it would be negligent 1



### to remain silent. 2



### Pollution from coal

- fired power plants 3


### contaminates our air and water, making people 4



### sick. There are cu rrently no limits on the 5


### amount of carbon pollution these plants can 6


### release, yet carbon pollution from power plants 7


### is among the leading cause of climate change, 8



### which the American Medical Association associates 9


### with the increased risk of asthma, respirat ory 10



### diseases, vector

- borne diseases, and heat

- related 11



### ailments. 12


### I have been sitting here listening to the 13


### opposition, and I keep hearing that this bill 14


### will cost more money and more unemployment. I 15


### question this. I became involved with the Sierra 16



### Club a fter I learned of the deadly things we are 17


### thoughtlessly adding into our environment. I was 18



### involved in a lunch

- and

- learn series, where the 19


### Sierra Club brought some public legislators to 20


### Gainesville, Georgia, to tour and learn about 21


### wind energy. I did no t even realize we have four 22

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### factories in Gainesville, Georgia, making 1


### equipment for wind energy. At this point, we did 2


### not even have any wind energy being used in 3


### Georgia. 4



### We toured the plant and had 5


### representatives talk. One man told his very 6


### moving, personal story of working in a coal 7


### plant, being laid off, and now working at the 8


### wind plant. That was in April. In May, Georgia 9


### Energy regulators unanimously approved Georgia 10


### Power Company's first entrance into wind energy. 11



### The State Public Service Co mmission signed off to 12


### buy 250 megawatts of power from wind farms in 13


### Oklahoma. That rate is less expensive than other 14


### forms of electric energy already on the grid, 15


### according to the article from the Atlanta 16


### Business Chronicle, dated May 20th. 17


### This story illustrates to me there are 18


### jobs in the clean energy market. Here in 19


### Georgia, we have ten

-- that's ten

-- ten 20


### factories making wind equipment. We now import a 21


### small amount of cheap wind energy from Oklahoma. 22

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### What if we had wind turbines in Georgia? I have 1


### been told we have great potential offshore, 2


### because of the Georgia Bayou. 3


### Unfortunately, we have some politicians 4



### that do not seem to consider the best interest of 5


### their constituents in power. Wind factories in 6


### Georgia? Let's have wind energy in Georgia. 7


### This would increase jobs, this would improve the 8


### environment, and I believe, with good old 9


### American ingenuity, would ultimately not cost us 10


### any more. It seems like a no

- brainer to me, and 11


### that is not even talking about solar. If Germany 12



### can do it, we can do it. 13


### Change is not easy and resistance is 14


### always met. In an ideal world, we would not need 15


### governing bodies to make these rules. We would 16



### take care of each other and the Earth, but 17


### history shows this not to be true. 18


### With the passage of th is rule, I believe 19


### this will be the beginning of a new chapter in 20


### history. This will mark the beginning of the 21


### clean and sustainable air. I implore you to keep 22

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### this rule and safeguard the people you are 1


### responsible for, and consider making this rule 2



### even stronger

-- 35 percent, at least. 3


### Thank you so much for your time. 4



### MS. BANISTER: Thank you for your 5


### comments. We appreciate them. Dr. Yomi? Is 6


### that right? 7


### DR. NOIBI: Thank you. Yes. My name is 8


### Yomi Noibi, spelled Y

- o

- m

- i, last name N as in 9



### Nancy

- o

- i

- b

- i. 10



### MS. BANISTER: Thank you. 11


### DR. NOIBI: I want to start by thanking 12


### EPA for being involved with this proposed rule. 13


### I represent Environmental Community Action. This 14


### is a statewide organization providing community 15


### organizing assistance to commun ities, especially 16


### in environmental health. We promote health and 17


### safety through organizing and leadership 18



### development. 19


### I am so happy that, according to EPA, the 20


### proposed Clean Power Plan will maintain an 21


### affordable, reliable energy system while cutting 22

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### p ollution and protecting our health and the 1


### environment. I am in total support of this 2



### proposed rule

-- I said total. However, in the 3


### how of doing it, there are some concerns that I 4



### would like EPA to consider. 5


### (1) The proposed rule must consider the 6


### pri nciples of environmental justice and climate 7


### justice, and then invoke the precautionary 8


### principle when needed, because they tell us to 9


### prove it. Before we've got to prove it, people 10


### are dying. There are health potential impacts 11


### from exposure to toxic che micals from all these 12



### power plants. 13



### (2) There is a need for the EPA to 14


### conduct a total environmental justice analysis of 15


### this proposed rule and make it a required part of 16


### the state implementation plan. 17


### (3) This proposed plan is slanted 18



### towards caps and trade as being the most viable 19


### option to carbon emission. Other options should 20


### be presented, such as carbon pricing. If cap and 21


### trade is given as an option, there must be 22

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### controls in the grid and into the process to make 1



### sure that a reduction is actuall y happening in 2


### the communities being impacted. 3


### (4) Energy solutions must benefit the 4


### community. The choice of sort of energy impacts 5


### the ecology level of a given community. 6


### Therefore, as this proposed rule is being put 7


### together, opportunities for clean energy, jobs, 8


### education, and affordable alternative energy 9


### solutions must be available for residents living 10


### near the impacted communities. 11


### The state's implementation plan process 12


### must include environmental justice leaders and 13



### advocates at the table. ECO

- action would like to 14


### see that the proposed rule puts into it outreach, 15


### and that it be a significant part of the SIP 16



### process. 17


### I noticed that nuclear power has been 18


### brought into this proposed rule. This is 19


### problematic to me and to ECO

- Action. The rule 20



### sta tes that EPA recognizes the worst issue. 21



### However, the rule avoids the retirements of some 22

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### of the U.S. nuclear capacity. On native lands, 1


### the inventory of abandoned mines is unknown and 2



### [?] is a known cost in health, land, and 3


### sustainability is substantia l. 4


### EPA, I want to again thank you for being 5


### bold, as you consider this proposed rule. The 6


### position is very strong. We have the yellow 7


### light, and the yellow light is saying take 8


### precaution. You are taking precaution by 9


### proposing this rule, and, in concl usion, I, with 10



### ECO

- Action, we support this rule and for you to 11


### consider ways in which you can implement this 12


### rule in the interest of environmental justice 13


### community to lift people up and to invest in 14



### renewable source of energy, so that, at the end, 15



### we will have a sustainable source of energy that 16


### will lift our economy and will be in the green 17



### economy that we all want to be. 18


### Thank you for listening. 19



### MS. BANISTER: Thank you. I have one 20


### clarifying question. Could you just speak a 21


### little bit more on what y ou said with regard to 22

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### nuclear? 1


### DR. NOIBI: Well, nuclear, in my opinion, 2


### is not clean energy, but in the proposed rule, 3


### they acknowledge the worst issue with nuclear, 4


### and according to the history of nuclear, there 5


### are potential health hazards that, as an 6



### environmental health scientist, should be 7


### considered, so that we take precaution. We have 8


### the evidence that this may cause harm, and the 9


### precautionary principle says when you have 10


### evidence, you take precautionary measures, even 11


### if you can't prove it. 12



### MS. BANISTER: Right. Okay. Thank you. 13


### I appreciate that. Thank you both for your 14


### comments and thank you for coming out tonight. 15


### I would like to now invite Susan Berryman 16


### Rodriguez and Rodney Russell. Susan, if you 17



### could pronounce your name and also spe ll it for 18



### the court reporter please. 19


### MS. BERRYMAN RODRIGUEZ: Good evening. 20


### My name is Susan Berryman Rodriguez, and that's 21



### S

- u

- s

- a

- n B

- e

- r

- r

- y

- m

- a

- n, Rodriguez, R

- o

- d

- r

- i

22

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### g

- u

- e

- z. It's a long name. 1


### Well, good evening. I know it's been a 2



### long couple o f days. It's almost over, so hang 3



### in there. On behalf of Mothers & Others For 4


### Clean Air, a program of the American Lung 5


### Association, I really appreciate the opportunity 6


### to share my comments in support of EPA's clean 7


### air plan, which, of course, will reduc e the 8


### health effects and the risks of climate change. 9


### Climate change is probably one of the most 10


### challenging public health issues of our day. 11


### The health impacts of climate change are 12


### often overlooked. Children represent a 13


### particularly vulnerable group w ho are likely to 14


### suffer disproportionately from the adverse health 15


### effects of climate change. According to the 16


### American Academy of Pediatrics, children are 17


### especially vulnerable because their lungs are 18


### developing and growing, they breath in more air 19



### than adults do, and they often, well, we hope, 20


### spend more time outdoors, engaging in physical 21


### activity. 22

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### Coal

- fired power plants, the largest 1


### single source of carbon emissions in the nation, 2


### are leading to warming temperatures, which can 3



### lead to ozone formation , a well

- known trigger for 4


### asthma attacks and worsening air pollution. 5


### Children who regularly breathe in ozone pollution 6


### may face reduced lung function in adulthood, and 7


### a reduction in lung function increases the risk 8


### of respiratory disease later on in li fe. And, of 9



### course, we know, because we've heard it over and 10


### over again, that asthma is one of the leading 11


### chronic illnesses among children and adolescents 12



### in the U.S., and, of course, it's one of the 13


### leading causes of school absenteeism. 14



### We need to have a strong Clean Power Plan 15


### that reduces carbon emissions and protects the 16


### health of millions of Americans, including our 17


### children. In fact, reducing carbon pollution 18



### leads to co

- benefits, because it reduces other 19



### co

- pollutants

-- air pollution that causes heart 20



### attacks, asthma attacks, premature death, cancer, 21


### birth defects, all of those things. 22

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### These proposed guidelines will prevent 1



### close to 4,000 premature deaths and 100,000 2


### asthma attacks in children in 2020, and up to 3



### 6,600 premature deaths and 150,0 00 asthma attacks 4



### in children in 2030. As a reminder, it is a 5



### cold, hard truth that children can and do die 6


### from asthma attacks. As Lisa Rayner, one of the 7


### women who testified yesterday, she nearly lost 8



### her daughter because of an asthma attack. 9



### This com mon

- sense plan will not only 10


### protect public health but it will also strengthen 11


### our economy, and the proof is in the over 40 12


### years of history of the Clean Air Act. Between 13


### 1970 and 2011, aggregate emissions of common air 14



### pollutants dropped by 68 percent wh ile the gross 15


### domestic product increased by 212 percent. 16


### So Mothers & Others For Clean Air urges 17


### EPA to set the final plan within a year, that 18


### provides for the strongest cuts to carbon 19


### emissions, because anything less short

- changes 20


### not only our children but our health and our 21



### future. 22

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### Thank you. 1



### MS. BANISTER: Thank you. Mr. Russell? 2



### MR RUSSELL: Thank you. Thank you for 3


### holding these public hearings this evening, and I 4


### know you're really tired, and we appreciate the 5


### opportunity to speak. My name is Rodney J. 6



### Russell and I am the President for the Atlanta 7


### Chapter of the American Association of Blacks in 8



### Energy. 9



### MS. BANISTER: Could you spell your name, 10



### too, for the court reporter? 11



### MR. RUSSELL: Oh, okay. R

- o

- d

- n

- e

- y J. 12



### R

- u

- s

- s

- e

- l

- l. 13



### MS. BANISTER : Thank you. 14


### MR. RUSSELL: Today I'm representing our 15


### chapter. AABE is a national association of 16


### energy professionals founded and dedicated to 17



### ensure that African Americans and other 18


### minorities have a voice in the development of 19


### energy policy and relate d environmental issues. 20


### While we are still in the process of analyzing 21


### the rule and the many technical support 22

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### documents, AABE has some significant concerns 1



### about EPA's proposed Clean Power Plan. 2


### We recognize that there is no simple 3



### solution for addressi ng the climate change issues 4


### with regard to greenhouse gas emissions. 5


### However, we believe any approach must be 6



### balanced, fair, and take into consideration 7


### impacts to communities, economic development, 8


### health, jobs, and the price of electricity. 9


### This pr oposed rule is very likely to 10


### significantly impact electrical power costs 11


### across the country. It will do so, in part, by 12


### changing the way our nation's electric generation 13



### resources are utilized to meet demand. 14


### Currently, generation units are dispatched 15



### p rimarily on economics to ensure that the most 16



### cost

- effective generation units are dispatched 17


### first. This rule appears to largely eliminate an 18


### economic dispatch in favor of environmental 19


### dispatch, without regard to cost. 20



### For example, to develop the state

21


### specific goals, EPA assumes that utilities will 22

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### shift generation from coal units to natural gas 1


### units, and EPA assumes natural gas units across 2


### the country will run at a 70 percent capacity 3



### factor or more. EPA must understand that if 4


### these natural gas uni ts were most cost

- effective, 5


### they would already be running at higher levels. 6


### EPA also assumes generation will be 7


### shifted to renewable energy

-- wind, solar, and 8


### possibly biomass. While AABE supports renewable 9


### energy, it must be cost

- effective. Because i t 10


### eliminates the focus on cost of energy resources, 11


### EPA's proposed carbon plan will not only increase 12


### electricity prices but also the price of natural 13



### gas. 14


### Natural gas is also used by industry and 15


### transportation and to heat our homes. Basic 16


### principles of supply and demand tell us that the 17


### increased demand for natural gas in the electric 18


### sector will increase gas prices. The increase in 19


### the cost of electricity and natural gas will 20


### increase the cost of goods and services across 21


### the country, and will drive more industry and 22

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### manufacturing jobs overseas. 1



### The bottom line

-- higher electricity 2


### prices, higher heating bills, more expensive 3


### goods and services, and fewer jobs. All of these 4


### have a disproportionate impact on those who are 5



### least able to manage those impacts. That is our 6



### small business owners and families and 7



### individuals who are on a fixed income or low 8


### income. We need to make progress on our climate 9


### change goals and commitments. We must find 10



### solutions that minimize the risk of cost increase 11



### and do not heap the cost on those least able to 12



### bear them. 13


### We support a holistic approach to meeting 14


### the rising demand of electricity. In 2012, 15


### electricity accounted for 32 percent of the total 16


### greenhouse gas emissions by economic sector, 17


### according to EPA. In dustry and transportation 18


### combined accounted for 48 percent of the total 19


### greenhouse gas emissions by the economic sector. 20


### Again, this is according to EPA. By focusing on 21


### electricity only, the rule ignores other 22

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### contributors to GHG emissions. 1



### While it's not a silver bullet, broad 2


### deployment of energy efficiency measures will be 3


### important to reduce the impact of rising utility 4


### bills. AABE strongly supports energy efficiency 5


### and serves as a resource on this issue for energy 6


### consumers, especially in the und erserved 7


### communities. We can't do it alone. Energy 8


### efficiency measures and education must be 9



### available to small businesses and low

- and fixed

10


### income families and individuals, because they are 11


### the ones that will benefit the most from energy 12


### savings. 13



### We r ecognize there is no simple solution 14


### for reducing greenhouse gas emissions. We 15


### believe the best strategy will strike a balance 16



### between the cost

- effective emissions reduction 17


### and economic growth. This proposal right now, as 18



### it stands, does not strike that balance. 19


### Thank you for the opportunity to provide 20



### these comments. 21



### MS. BANISTER: Thank you. Do you have 22

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### any clarifying comments or questions? Thank you 1


### both for coming out tonight. We appreciate your 2



### comments. 3



### Next I would invite Brandon Sutton and 4


### Joy Kramer. Thank you both for coming out 5


### tonight. We appreciate you both being here. 6


### Brandon, if you would spell your name for the 7



### court reporter, and we can start. 8



### MR. SUTTON: Great. Thank you. My name 9



### is Brandon Sutton. That's B

- r

- a

- n

- d

- o

- n S

- u

- t

- t

10



### o

- n. I want to thank you ladies for the 11


### opportunity to come and speak tonight, and thank 12


### you for your time. I want to show appreciation 13


### for the wonderful work the EPA is doing on this 14


### issue. It's obviously very important to future 15


### generations of Ame ricans, so thank you for the 16


### work that you're doing here. 17


### I'm a native Georgian and have seen with 18


### my own eyes the changes in climate, just in my 19



### lifetime. I'm concerned about the future of the 20


### climate and the damage we continue to inflict on 21



### the environ ment that supports all of life on 22

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### Earth. 1



### I'm also concerned about the economic 2


### impacts of failing to take steps to drastically 3


### reduce greenhouse gas emissions quickly enough. 4


### We can no longer afford to ignore the impacts of 5



### decades of carbon dioxide accu mulation in the 6


### atmosphere, and fixing the problem will continue 7


### to get more expensive the longer we wait to 8



### change course. 9


### Reducing carbon emissions is a smart, 10


### sensible path forward for our nation and it comes 11


### with a host of positive side effects, such as 12


### cleaner air and water, along with decreases in 13


### respiratory illnesses and premature deaths. 14


### Those who object to regulating emissions often 15


### point to the belief that acting to regulate these 16


### emissions will be detrimental to the U.S. economy 17


### and jobs. 18



### W ell, it turns out that there is a policy 19


### option that reduces these emissions and benefits 20



### the U.S. Economy. It's called carbon fee and 21


### dividend, and it's a policy that I hope the EPA 22

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### will include as a mechanism for state compliance 1



### in its final rules in 2 015. 2


### A recent nonpartisan study, conducted by 3


### REMI, concluded that putting a fee on carbon and 4


### returning all of the money to the public would 5


### slash carbon emissions while creating jobs and 6


### increasing GDP in the process. The report shows 7


### that fixing the m arket distortion that has 8



### allowed fossil

- based energy to be artificially 9


### cheap, due to externalized and socialized costs, 10


### will drive innovation, create 2.8 million jobs, 11


### while reducing emissions over 50 percent in a 20

- 12


### year time span. 13



### The gentlemen that w ere here from 14


### Alabama, I wish they were here to hear about this 15


### policy, and the gentleman that just spoke might 16


### actually be interested in it, if he's still in 17



### the room. This is a market

- based solution. This 18



### is a solution that has broad conservative 19



### suppo rt, which is a rare thing in this 20



### conversation. 21



### I'm confident that if the EPA reads the 22

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### full REMI report, they will see why the carbon 1


### fee and dividend approach is a sensible policy 2


### solution that states can employ to be in 3


### compliance with final EPA rules to come. In that 4


### case, I would ask that the EPA specifically 5


### include carbon fee and dividend as a compliance 6


### mechanism and that details on carbon pricing 7



### levels, escalation schedules, and administrative 8


### guidance on the implementation of the policy be 9



### incl uded in the final rules that would ensure 10


### states have a road map for using this policy for 11


### compliance. 12


### Thank you again for the work you are 13


### doing here. I appreciate the opportunity to 14


### share this information on this policy, that will 15



### allow states to compl y with the proposed 16



### emissions reductions. 17


### MS. BANISTER: Thank you, and if you 18


### could supply us with your written testimony, so 19



### that we have that information. 20



### MR. SUTTON: Yes. I have the link here. 21



### MS. BANISTER: Okay. Awesome. Thank you 22

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### so much. Ye s. Joy, would you state your name 1


### and spell it for the court reporter? 2


### MS. KRAMER: Yes. My name is Joy Kramer, 3



### J

- o

- y K

- r

- a

- m

- e

- r. Thank you for letting my 4


### voice be heard here today, of course. I am a 5


### small business entrepreneur, producing 6



### conferences and events on alternative energy. 7


### For the last 3 years, the Alternative Fuel 8



### Vehicle Roadshow has educated thousands of 9


### elected officials and transportation fleet 10


### managers on the costs and benefits associated 11


### with undertaking a transition from gasoline a nd 12



### diesel to clean and renewable fuels. 13



### In over 43 cities across the Southeast, 14


### and corporate and municipal leaders have come 15


### together to learn how to evaluate these options 16


### that are available today. They are doing it 17


### because being efficient is the rig ht decision. 18


### It is the fiscally responsible thing to do. They 19


### are doing it because extremely profitable 20


### companies, like UPS, FedEx, AT&T, and Coca

- Cola 21


### have led the way in renewable transitions, not 22

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### because of the environment, although $1 invested 1



### for a $7 return in health benefits is not a bad 2


### deal. Not because they were forced with a 3



### mandate but because they set reasonable goals and 4



### planned for the future. 5


### Goals. That's what we're talking about 6



### here. Reasonable goals. Long

- rang planning that 7



### is r equired in every business in the United 8


### States of America to stay competitive. But we 9


### are not competitive. We are combative. The 10


### utilities say, "Why should we change when China 11


### is building more coal plants?" Are we really 12


### going to hold China up as the shining example 13



### that we want to follow? 14



### If not the EPA here, then who will lead 15


### us forward? A monopoly utility has no 16


### competition and no competition means no 17


### innovation. Look at the wires overhead when you 18


### drive home after this marathon hearing session. 19


### You will see the same ugly, energy

- leaking wires 20


### strung across every neighborhood since the '40s. 21


### Nothing is being done for the long term. Rate

22

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### payers bear the cost of perpetually clipping 1


### trees in emergency response to power lines down, 2



### in case of ext reme weather and ice. Developing 3


### businesses like solar energy companies are shut 4


### out because Georgia's territorial act is 5


### legislating from 1973. A protected monopoly has 6


### no worries until goals get in the way. 7


### I salute the Georgia Public Service 8



### Commissi on for taking a step in the right 9


### direction with the deployment of utility scale 10



### renewable energy, last year, and I trust that as 11


### elected officials, they will provide responsible 12


### stewardship towards both the utility and the rate 13


### payer as this rule goes int o place. 14



### As we look at our own landscape, we see 15


### our military with energy

- efficient goals and our 16



### businesses and our own homes. It is time for our 17



### state utilities to do the same. 18


### Thank you for your time. 19



### MS. BANISTER: Thank you so much for your 20



### commen ts, and thank you both for coming out 21


### tonight. 22

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### MS. MILLER: I have question for Brandon 1



### on the REMI study. What does REMI stand for 2


### again? 3


### MR. SUTTON: It's Regional Economic 4



### Models, Inc. 5


### MS. MILLER: So that's the model, right? 6



### But who commissioned t he study. 7


### MR. SUTTON: Citizens Climate Lobby 8


### commissioned the study. It's a volunteer 9


### organization. 10



### MS. MILLER: Okay. That's what I was 11


### wondering. Okay. Thanks. 12



### MR. SUTTON: You're welcome. 13


### MS. BANISTER: Thank you both for coming, 14



### and your comme nts. Now I would like to invite Ed 15


### Paradis and Becky Pettis to come up. 16


### Thank you both for coming out tonight to 17


### share your comments. We appreciate it. Ed, we 18


### will begin with you. If you would state your 19


### name and spell it for the court reporter, we'll 20


### begin. 21


### MR. PARADIS: My name is Edward, E

- d

- w

- a

22

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### r

- d, Paradis, P

- a

- r

- a

- d

- i

- s. We're getting down 1



### to the wire here, ladies. It won't be much 2


### longer, so I won't say I appreciate it because I 3


### know everybody else has said that. 4



### MS. BANISTER: Oh, you're mo re than 5



### welcome. 6



### MR. PARADIS: But I'll start off with 7


### something. I know that none of y'all are old 8


### enough to have grandchildren yet. I do have 9


### grandchildren. I've got three grandchildren, and 10


### they are the sweetest children in the world to 11



### me. They wo uld like to have a life where they 12


### don't have to worry about going outside and 13


### dealing with the problems with the air and things 14


### of that nature. I'll just start with that. 15


### One of my children had a problem with 16



### asthma as a child, and it was somewhat 17



### frust rating at times, when I would get emergency 18


### calls at work, I would have to stop working 19



### wherever I was and I would have to go to the 20


### school to deal with my child's asthma episode, or 21


### if we were on vacation somewhere, he would get an 22

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### asthma attack and we wo uld have to deal with 1


### that. Any common sense will tell you that if 2


### you're in a situation where you're having 3


### production of chemical substances, particulate 4



### matter that contributes to an asthma or a 5


### breathing difficulty situation that you'd need to 6



### do what ever you can to try and control that. 7



### Aside from that, it's been discussed 8


### largely about some of the alternatives, and I'm a 9


### very big proponent of photovoltaic systems. I'm 10


### a great proponent of fan or the wind power. 11


### Certainly, we have a number of resou rces and a 12


### number of opportunities in Georgia, which the 13


### incumbent power company seems to define some way 14


### to try and block that every opportunity they get. 15


### They don't want anybody to compete with them. 16


### With that, also, Georgia has some of the 17



### most pollut ing power plants in the country. One, 18


### Plant Scherer, I believe, is right at the top of 19


### the list for being one of the most polluting. 20


### I've only been here for a little while, 21



### but I'll also mention that in addition to the 22

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### issues with the particulate matte r, most of 1


### y'all, once again, maybe you're a little too 2


### young to remember all the discussion earlier, 3


### years ago, in the '70s, about acid rain and such, 4


### with the burning of sulfur

- bearing coal. That has 5


### to go somewhere. The sulfur would mix with the 6



### moistu re in the air and, once again, you'd end up 7



### with areas of forest that were decimated. You'd 8


### end up with bodies of water, lakes, that 9


### basically became sterile because nothing could 10


### live in water that had a pH of 4. So you would 11


### end up with that. 12



### There's also another aspect of this that 13


### I understand would be a benefit of reducing the 14


### carbon emissions, particularly if it's involved 15


### in phasing out the use of coal, and that would be 16


### the other, I guess, physical pollution, the 17



### byproduct of these power plants. Every one of 18



### these plants has a waste product, coal ash. It's 19


### also referred to as fly ash. The coal ash is 20


### stored in these containment ponds, and just in 21



### the Southeast, there are well in excess of 100 of 22

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### these containment ponds. 1


### Just earlier this yea r they had an issue 2


### with a containment pond in North Carolina that 3


### broke. It dumped somewhere in the neighborhood 4



### of

-- well, I didn't make that note

-- it was an 5



### excessive amount of coal ash in to the Dan River 6


### in North Carolina, and it ruined a municipa lity's 7


### drinking water, and it produced one of the 8


### largest fish kills in history. 9



### The coal ash contains lead. It contains 10


### beryllium. It contains cadmium. It contains 11


### mercury. These are not the things that you would 12


### see us eating on a regular basis or consuming in 13



### water, but as long as these ponds are there, 14


### we're going to end up with that. 15


### Just to wrap this up, when you've reduced 16


### the amount of coal that's being burned, then you 17



### can also reduce the amount of hazardous waste 18



### that's produce, that you'l l still have to find 19


### something to do with that. 20



### Thank you. 21



### MS. BANISTER: Thank you for your 22

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### comments. Becky? 1


### MS. PETTIS: My name is Becky, B

- e

- c

- k

- y, 2



### West Pettis, P

- e

- t

- t

- i

- s. I am here as a 3


### layperson. I am not educated in the carbon 4



### areas. I am h ere to let you know what it's like 5



### to suffer from asthma. I actually got out of the 6



### bed to come here. 7



### I'm adult

- onset of asthma, and have been 8


### very sick as of late. I am not a smoker. I've 9


### never been a smoker. My husband is not a smoker. 10



### When I was growing up, my family were not 11


### smokers. I do not like to be around any kind of 12


### smoke or other kind of pollutants at all. 13


### I am a singer. I'm very saddened to say 14


### that my singing days may very well be cut short 15


### because of my asthmatic suffering at this t ime. 16


### I started singing when I was 4 years old. My 17


### last singing engagement was just a couple of 18


### months ago, prior to my getting so sick. 19


### You can go from a cold to a viral 20


### infection to upper respiratory infection to 21


### bronchitis to pneumonia to bronchial as thma to 22

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### COPD and then being totally dependent on oxygen. 1


### If you've ever heard the expression, "You've had 2


### the wind knocked out of you," that's what it 3


### feels like for your chest to hurt all the time. 4


### If you try to take a deep breath it's very 5


### painful. Th e constriction of your airways keeps 6


### you from being able to breathe like a normal 7



### person. 8


### I sat here and listened to the lady, Ms. 9


### Rodriguez, talk about the children. I'm so sad 10



### for them because I know how I feel, and they're 11


### totally innocent to all of t his, and I'm 61 years 12


### old. I hope that they're going to be able to 13


### live a healthy life and not have to suffer like 14


### I'm suffering now. 15


### My days have totally changed and consist 16


### of having to have with me, at all times, Kleenex, 17


### prednisone, which is a steroi d that I cannot do 18


### without. I have to have other allergy 19


### medications, Mucinex. I'm all the time having to 20



### have throat lozenges. Now I'm on a very heavy 21


### medication called Symbicort, which I'm sure 22

OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 Washington: 202

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### you've all seen commercials about. This is a 1


### very invasi ve inhaler that's used by people who 2



### have several bronchial asthma and COPD. 3


### But with that, there are many side 4


### effects. You can get something called thrush, 5


### which is an inflammation in your mouth that also 6


### goes into your lungs. Then I have to take pil ls 7



### for the side effects of that. Then I have to 8


### also take injections of steroids from time to 9



### time. 10



### Then there's a nebulizer machine with 11



### albuterol. But the problem with those is there 12



### are side effects, and I have to take another 13



### medication because now I've developed GERD, which 14


### is gastric indigestion reflux disease, better 15



### known as heartburn. Then I have my emergency 16


### inhaler that I use any time from two to six times 17



### a day. 18


### This has totally changed my life and my 19


### family. I cannot lay flat to sleep. I have to 20


### be inclined or sit up to sleep, because I gag. 21


### Thank you for listening to me tonight. 22

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### MS. BANISTER: Thank you so much for 1


### coming out to share your story with us tonight. 2


### Thank you. Thank you both for coming out. 3



### I would like to invite n ow Lauren Smith 4



### and Dr. Jalal, J

- a

- l

- a

- l Zuberi, Z

- u

- b

- e

- r

- i. I 5


### will let you pronounce it. Okay, Lauren, if you 6


### would state your name and also spell it for the 7



### court reporter. 8



### MS. SMITH: Lauren M. Smith. L

- a

- u

- r

- e

- n 9



### M. S

- m

- i

- t

- h. 10



### MS. BANISTER: Okay. You can begin. 11


### MS. SMITH: Hello. My name is Lauren 12


### Smith and I am a rising senior at DeKalb School 13


### of the Arts, and I am representing the Alliance 14


### for Climate Education's Youth Leadership Network 15



### of Atlanta. 16


### CO2 levels are having devastating effects 17



### o n our Planet Earth. Recently, the Environmental 18


### Protection Agency proposed a plan to reduce 19


### carbon pollution from power plants. The EPA's 20


### proposed Clean Power Plan strengthens existing 21


### state and local plans and provides a workable 22

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### framework to cut pollut ion levels. 1



### Earlier in 2014, CO2 emissions crossed 2


### 400 parts per million for the first time our 3


### history. Power plants are the largest 4



### contributor of carbon dioxide emissions in the 5


### U.S., making up one

- third of all domestic 6


### greenhouse gas emissions. Wo w. Just taking a 7



### second to let those facts sink in should alarm 8



### you. 9


### Now, let me paint a picture of what life 10


### will be like if we continue down the path we are 11


### currently on. Imagine waking up and making a cup 12


### of coffee, then enjoying it on your outdoor 13



### p atio, except you can't anymore because the 14


### temperatures are too extreme. Imagine not being 15


### able to enjoy any seafood because of ocean 16


### acidification's devastating effects. Imagine 17


### significantly higher crop and meat prices and a 18


### dramatic drop in production

. 19



### This is not science fiction. These are 20



### real

- life, devastating effects that future 21


### generations will have to endure if we fail to do 22

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### our part and support a comprehensive Clean Power 1



### Plan, as proposed by the EPA. You wouldn't want 2


### future generations to l ive a life like the one I 3


### just described. They should be able to 4


### experience a lifestyle similar to our own growing 5



### up, where they don't have to suffer the 6


### devastating consequences of CO2 pollution. 7


### Besides the clear moral obligation we 8



### have to protect th e climate, there is also an 9


### economic case to be made. In 2012 alone, crop 10


### losses, flood damages, wildfires, and other 11



### climate

- related disasters cost our country more 12


### than $140 billion. American taxpayers picked up 13


### the bulk of the costs, nearly $100 billi on, to 14


### the tune of $1,100 per taxpayer. In 2004, 15


### Atlanta suffered $41 million in damages from 16


### Hurricane Frances, primarily from flooding due to 17


### inadequate storm sewer systems. 18


### And then there are the debilitating 19


### public health effects of carbon pollution. 20


### Carbon pollution that drives climate change is 21


### responsible for increased air pollution that 22

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### cause thousands of deaths each yet, yet it 1


### remains unchecked. That must change. 2


### According to the American Lung 3


### Association, more than 35,000 premature deaths 4



### co uld be prevented by strong pollution standards. 5



### Millions of children live in areas that received 6


### an F rating for at least one air quality measure. 7


### Young people and other vulnerable populations are 8


### at a higher risk of the health effects linked to 9



### climate change. 10



### Atlanta and other Southeastern cities 11


### have already had increases in the number of days 12


### with temperatures exceeding 95 degrees, during 13


### which the average number of deaths is above 14


### average. Power plants, many of which are dirty, 15



### coal

- fired, and deca des old, have never before 16


### been subject to environmental safeguards designed 17



### to protect health and cut greenhouse gas 18


### pollution. 19


### And for the EPA to be effective in ways 20



### that allow our nation's farmers and businesses 21


### the best opportunity to pursue success , states 22

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### must partner with the EPA to design how the 1


### safeguards will be implemented under the Clean 2


### Air Act. The EPA has taken the right step with 3


### its Clean Power Plan, that will cut dangerous 4


### carbon pollution by 30 percent by the year 2030. 5



### I'm here to urge the EPA to issue an 6


### ambitious, final carbon pollution standard for 7


### existing power plants, to address the main cause 8


### of climate change, and to protect our health from 9


### its devastating impacts. 10



### Thank you. 11



### MS. BANISTER: Thank you. Yes, would you 12



### pron ounce your name and spell it? 13


### MR. ZUBERI: Hello, yes. My name is 14



### Jalal Zuberi. First name J

- a

- l

- a

- l, last name 15



### Zuberi with a Z as in zucchini

- u

- b

- e

- r

- i. 16



### MS. BANISTER: Thank you so much. 17



### DR. ZUBERI: I am an Associate Professor 18



### of Clinical Pediatrics at Morehouse School of 19


### Medicine, and it gives me great pleasure to be 20


### given a chance to speak here, and I thank you, 21


### the EPA, as well as American Lung Association and 22

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### sister organizations like Mothers & Others For 1


### Clean Air, who have done a tremendous job in 2


### advocating for the cause of clean air in Georgia. 3



### I have attended many luncheons that they have 4


### sponsored in collaboration with the American Lung 5



### Association and have resulted in our more 6



### awareness to these issues. 7



### I think a lot has been said about t he 8


### statistics on environmental pollution, so I just 9


### don't need to repeat those things which have been 10


### said numerous times in the last couple of days. 11


### As a physician who is a pediatrician in this 12


### great city of ours for the last 25 years, I am 13



### here to make certain observations and I hope that 14


### will help drive the point that we are here for 15



### today. 16



### Let me share a personal story. Not long 17


### ago, in my clinic, there was this cute little 18


### girl who was 15 months old, sometime last month, 19


### and I was actually given a c all from this frantic 20



### mother, that she wanted me to come to the DFCS 21


### hearing in the Juvenile Court of Justice. And 22

OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 Washington: 202

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### when I inquired about the problem, we found out 1


### that this child was taken away from this mother 2


### because she was taking the child frequently to 3


### the emergency room in the previous several 4


### months, and she was taking her to different 5


### emergency rooms because of some logistic reasons, 6


### of transport issues, or the fact that they were 7


### not able to provide care, as they were seen as 8


### negligent. 9



### So afte r multiple trips, some of the 10



### doctors who saw the records determined that she 11


### was negligent, and she was not caring for the 12


### child, and noncompliant. So the reported this to 13



### the DFCS and, lo and behold, what the DFCS people 14


### generally do is to take this int o account and 15



### determine that this mother is not able to take 16


### care of the child and they took the child away. 17



### So when I was notified, and I knew this 18


### family for some time, I know they had many 19


### issues, but I knew they were not negligent, they 20



### loved the chil d, and I felt that this would be 21


### not a good result for this child to be away from 22

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### this loving family. And I talked to the family 1



### and found out what was the cause for the 2


### investigation, and it revealed that the place 3


### they were living at, not only there was some 4


### environmental issues in the house but they were 5


### living right next to a plant, which was the cause 6


### of environmental pollution. 7



### So after a lot of deliberations, we were 8


### able to convince them to have the Housing 9


### Authority give them permission to move and give 10


### them a separate home. Since that time, over the 11



### past 6 months or so, we have seen

-- I mean, I 12


### have seen, of course I gave the testimony and the 13



### result of the

-- I mean, I'd like to think that 14



### that was the reason the DFCS people reversed 15



### their d ecision and gave the child back to the 16


### parents. Since then, we have seen that the child 17


### has not suffered that much. So that is my 18



### personal story. 19


### Also, since I have been living in Atlanta 20


### for some time, I knew during the Olympics of 21



### 1996, it is a demons trable fact that the 22

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### emergency room visits due to asthma significantly 1


### were reduced in the 3 weeks of time that people 2


### were not driving, because there were no cars on 3


### the road, and after that, since people resumed 4


### driving, and I was one of them

-- we used to come 5



### downtown from home in the suburbs

-- the asthma 6



### rates were back. So we have scientific evidence, 7


### just personally, that I've seen with my own eyes, 8



### that that happens. 9


### Also, as an immigrant in this country

-- 10


### I'm from India, originally

-- and, of c ourse, 11


### because of my status, I keep track of what is 12


### happening in countries like China, Brazil. So we 13


### know that smog, in many cities you can't see 14


### beyond like this gentleman sitting here. I can't 15


### beyond that point because of the point, and that 16



### comes fro m the fact that there is not much 17


### environmental or emissions regulations in those 18


### countries, where traffic is increasing, and in 19


### this country, luckily, we have that, so we don't 20


### have those kinds of problems. We know that this 21


### results in good effect when w e have more 22

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### controls. 1


### So those people, those politicians who 2


### think that this is just partisan politics, I 3


### think we need to go beyond that and look at it in 4


### a bipartisan manner, and, of course, the 5


### regulations that the EPA has proposed, I'm fully 6


### in suppor t of that. I would also like them to 7


### open up more in terms of communication with other 8


### political parties, so it should be a joint, 9


### bipartisan effort. 10


### So I certainly think that this can happen 11



### and we come to a common

- sense approach. As the 12


### leading indu strialized nation in the world right 13


### now, the only major support power, I think we 14


### should be at the leading edge and the forefront 15


### of the policy and guidelines towards 16


### environmental and safer protection for our 17



### children and families. 18



### Thank you for your su pport. 19


### MS. BANISTER: Thank you both for sharing 20


### your story. I appreciate it. 21



### I would now like to invite James Reefe. 22

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### It's R

- e

- e, I think, f

- e. Yes. You're the last 1


### person that has registered to speak. If there is 2



### someone else that's in the audience that is 3


### awaiting to speak, please go to the registration 4



### desk so that we can make sure that you have that 5


### opportunity. 6


### Yes. Welcome and thank you for coming 7


### out tonight. If you could state your name and 8


### spell it for the court reporter, that would be 9



### ap preciated. 10


### MR. REEFE: Hi. My name is Jim Reefe. 11



### That's R

- e

- e

- F as in Frank

- e. 12



### MS. BANISTER: Okay. 13



### MR. REEFE: In 1776, when Adam Smith 14


### published The Wealth of Nations, he was one of 15


### 800 million people on Earth. It was the birth of 16



### the modern econom y. The Industrial Revolution 17


### kicked off, burning coal to boil water, to make 18


### steam, to turn the engines that ran the factories 19


### and move the trains. Globally, it seemed there 20


### were still vast expanses of unexplored regions 21



### rich with resources. The world s eemed infinite 22

OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 Washington: 202

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### and balanced. In the U.S.A., old

- growth forests 1



### stretched unbroken from the Atlantic Ocean to the 2



### Missouri River, from Alabama in the south, north 3



### into Canada to the northern tree line. The 4


### Industrial Revolution hit high gear with little 5



### r egard for the resources consumed or the 6


### consequences of that consumption. 7


### Man began injecting CO2 into the 8


### biosphere faster than nature could remove it. 9


### Coal internalized the profits and externalized 10


### the costs. Acid and heavy metals, soot, and CO2 11



### raine d down on the people. 12



### I was born in 1959, one of 3 billion 13


### people on Earth at that time. In the preceding 14


### 200 years since 1776, the world population had 15


### quadrupled. In 1959, man was injecting CO2 into 16


### the biosphere in an order of magnitude faster 17



### than n ature could remove it. 18



### In the mid 1960s, I saw one of the last 19



### scheduled steam

- powered passenger trains pull 20


### into the station in Wilmington, Delaware. Then, 21


### in 1970, in a moment of clarity unmatched in 22

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### recent times, driven to act by the reality of a 1



### land toxified, in their wisdom, the U.S. Congress 2


### amended the Clean Air Act, which was then signed 3


### into law by our GOP father, Richard M. Nixon, and 4


### the people breathed easier, and the water ran 5


### clean, and it was righteous and good, and whoever 6


### complained abou t water that is to clean? 7


### In the year 2000, the world population 8


### passed 6 billion. Global population had doubled 9


### in my lifetime. The next 12 years added another 10


### billion people. There are no more vast expanses 11


### of unexplored territory. The old

- growth fo rest 12



### in the U.S.A. is extinct. 13


### The reality of finite bounded world is 14


### evident. Today, the way we use it, the world is 15


### built out. Man is injecting CO2 into the 16


### biosphere orders of magnitude faster than nature 17


### can remove it. Today is our new and stormy 18



### p resent. 19


### Today, trends for all major climate 20


### indicators are tracking against us, Most are 21


### trending radically against us. Mankind now burns 22

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### more coal to boil water, to make steam, to turn a 1


### turbine, to make electricity than ever. The 2


### exploitation economi c model that drove the 3


### Industrial Revolution, creating the illusion of 4


### global prosperity, has failed systematically and 5


### the coal technology, like the steam railroad, is 6


### obsolete. I say the illusion of prosperity 7



### because the externalized costs to make the energy 8


### have yet to be realized, meaning cost of CO2 9


### pollution in the atmosphere. 10


### Driven by a conspicuous consumption, 11



### planned obsolescence, the throw

- away society, the 12


### religious of consumption as an inherently 13


### unfulfilling way of life, with obscenely shor t

14


### term focus in economic thinking, the cost of 300 15


### years of excess CO2 in the biosphere is a bill 16


### about to come due, and we will pay over and over 17


### and over again. That CO2 in the biosphere is 18


### like money already spent, like the national debt. 19



### I have no co ntrol over that, but what I do have 20


### control over is the CO2 still in my pocket, still 21


### in the ground. 22

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### The mindset rooted in the origins of the 1



### Industrial Revolution is obsolete, and continued 2


### loyalty to this mode of thinking is futile and 3


### pointless. Like the frog in the pot, using CO2, 4


### mankind has put the planet on slow boil, and when 5


### the urge to jump arises, it's too late. There's 6


### nowhere to jump and we're already cooked. 7


### So my question is, what is my obligation 8


### to the planet that sustains me, the only planet 9



### that I have to call home? There is consternation 10


### among decision

- makers about the cost to protect 11


### our world, but what is the cost of that change 12


### relative to the cost of trying against damage 13


### already done to sustain human civilization in a 14



### world too hot and too crowded? What is my 15


### obligation in a democratic, capitalist, 16


### consumption

- based society to the world that 17



### sustains me? The answer is that it's the same as 18


### it is in every other society. Loyal to the 19


### failed models giving us the illusion of 20



### prosp erity while endangering the future of the 21


### planet only serves to compound interest on the 22

OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 Washington: 202

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- 3376360



### bill that is sure to come due. 1


### So I have a request to coal and oil. 2


### Please reject the Soylent Green solution, where 3



### man eats man to survive. Please advocate for the 4


### dissolution of your business in a controlled and 5


### organized manner, and as you do so, pay honor and 6


### tribute to the society that so enriched you while 7


### absorbing the cost of your business. 8


### To the EPA, I implore you to act. Act 9


### now. Act decisively with foc us, dedication, and 10


### resolve. Abandon the dogma of Industrial 11


### Revolution so inappropriate to our stormy 12



### present. Embrace the glory of Eden on Earth, and 13



### honor the covenant between mankind and the Planet 14



### Earth to sustain our civilization and the 15



### countless billions of people yet to be born. 16



### MS. BANISTER: Thank you for your 17



### comments. 18



### MR. REEFE: Thank you very much. 19


### MS. BANISTER: Any clarifying questions? 20


### Thank you so much. I think Mr. Reefe was our 21


### last person to speak tonight, but I do want to do 22

OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 Washington: 202

- 898

- 1108 • Baltimore: 410

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- 3376 Toll Free: 888

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### one last check to make sure that there is no one 1


### else in the audience that would like to speak 2


### before we close out this public hearing. 3


### [No audible response.] 4


### MS. BANISTER: Again, I'd like to say 5


### thank you all for coming out tonight, and some of 6



### you guys h ave been with us for the last 2 days, 7


### and we'd like to say thank you for coming to 8


### share your perspectives and your opinions with 9


### regard to the rule, and we invite you to please 10



### submit comments, written comments, and all of the 11



### comments that were taken, th at we received over 12


### the last 2 days, as well as ones that we received 13


### before, by October 16th, will be reviewed and 14


### considered, so thank you. 15


### So, this hearing is adjourned. 16


### [Whereupon, at 8:05 p.m., the Public 17


### Hearing adjourned .] 18

19

20

21

22

OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 Washington: 202

- 898

- 1108 • Baltimore: 410

- 752

- 3376 Toll Free: 888

- 445

- 3376