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KAREN B. MARTINEZ

OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER

STATE v. THOMAS OLIVAS 1

REPORTER'S RECORD

VOLUME 9 OF 21 VOLUME(S)

TRIAL COURT CAUSE NO. 1376698R

COURT OF APPEALS CASE NO. 02-14-00412-CR

THE STATE OF TEXAS

VS.

THOMAS OLIVAS

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IN THE 372ND JUDICIAL

DISTRICT COURT

TARRANT COUNTY, TEXAS

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TRIAL ON MERITS CONTINUES

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On the 12th day of September, 2014, the following

proceedings came on to be heard in the above-entitled

and numbered cause before the Honorable Scott Wisch,

Presiding Judge, held in Fort Worth, Tarrant County,

Texas;

Proceedings reported by computerized machine

shorthand with assisted realtime transcription.

KAREN B. MARTINEZ, CERTIFIED SHORTHAND REPORTER

Official Court Reporter

372nd Judicial District Court

Tarrant County, Texas

 FILED IN 2nd COURT OF APPEALS FORT WORTH, TEXAS 3/27/2015 12:36:05 PM DEBRA SPISAK Clerk

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KAREN B. MARTINEZ

OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER

STATE v. THOMAS OLIVAS 2

APPEARANCES:

ATTORNEYS FOR THE STATE:

HONORABLE R. KEVIN ROUSSEAU

SBOT NO: 17324950

HONORABLE TAMLA S. RAY

SBOT NO: 24046687

Assistant Criminal District Attorneys

Tim Curry Criminal Justice Center

Fort Worth Texas 76196

Phone: 817-884-1400

Fax: 817-884-3333

ATTORNEYS FOR THE DEFENDANT:

HONORABLE TIM MOORE

SBOT NO: 14378300

Attorney at Law

115 West 2nd Street, Suite 202

Fort Worth, Texas 76102

Phone: 817-332-3822

Fax: 817-332-2768

- AND -

HONORABLE JOETTA L. KEENE

SBOT NO: 11165800

Attorney at Law

204 South Mesquite Street

Arlington, Texas 76010

Phone: 817-275-6611

Fax: 817-275-6621

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KAREN B. MARTINEZ

OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER

STATE v. THOMAS OLIVAS 3

CHRONOLOGICAL INDEX

Volume 9 of 21

TRIAL ON MERITS CONTINUES

September 12, 2014 Page Vol.

Witness Testimony Resumes.................... 10 9

STATE'S WITNESSES Voir

Direct Cross Dire Vol.

Fallentine, Shannon 11,14,17, 77 12,15,18, 9

20,23,25, 22,24,26,

30,33,37, 31,34,38,

38,40,45, 39,44,46,

47,51,53, 48,52,54,

55,57,60, 56,58,60,

62,63,65, 62,64,66,

68,72 69,73

One Witness Sworn............................. 121 9

Recessed for the Day.......................... 202 9

Court Reporter's Certificate.................. 203 9

ALPHABETICAL LISTING OF WITNESSES

Voir

Direct Cross Dire Vol.

Fallentine, Shannon 11,14,17, 77 12,15,18, 9

20,23,25, 22,24,26,

30,33,37, 31,34,38,

38,40,45, 39,44,46,

47,51,53, 48,52,54,

55,57,60, 56,58,60,

62,63,65, 62,64,66,

68,72 69,73

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OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER

STATE v. THOMAS OLIVAS 4

EXHIBITS

STATE'S

NO. DESCRIPTION OFFERED ADMITTED VOL.

185 Lighter in Ziploc 37 38 9

*185A Evidence Box 37 38 9

*185B Evidence Sack with Ruler 37 38 9

186 Lighter in Ziploc 31 33 9

*186A Evidence Box 31 33 9

*186B Evidence Sack with Ruler 31 33 9

187 Lighter in Ziploc 46 47 9

*187A Evidence Box 46 47 9

*187B Evidence Sack with Ruler 46 47 9

188 Nikon Camera in Ziploc 48 50 9

*188A Evidence Box 48 50 9

188B Camera Bag in Ziploc 48 50 9

*188C Evidence Sacks 48 50 9

189 Nikon Coolpix Camera in

Ziploc 34 37 9

*189A Evidence Box 34 37 9

*189B Camera Charger and Bag in

Ziploc 34 37 9

*189C Evidence Sacks with Clear

Bag 34 37 9

*190 Sealed Bag Containing Cell

Phone with Evidence Box 43 45 9

*190A Evidence Sacks 43 45 9

191 Keys on Rings 41 42 9

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OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER

STATE v. THOMAS OLIVAS 5

*191A Evidence Box 41 42 9

*191B Evidence Sacks 41 42 9

192 Keys on Rings 39 42 9

*192A Evidence Box 39 42 9

*192B Evidence Sack 39 42 9

193 Knife Block with Three

Knives in White Packaging 18 20 9

*193A Evidence Sacks 18 20 9

194 Black-Handled Knife in

Ziploc 21 22 9

*194A Evidence Box, Packaging,

Ruler 21 22 9

*194B Evidence Packaging 21 22 9

195 Two Paring Knives in White

Packaging in Ziploc 24 25 9

*195A Evidence Box, Packaging,

Ruler 24 25 9

*195B Evidence Packaging 24 25 9

196 Three Knives in White

Packaging in Ziploc 26 30 9

*196A Evidence Box, Packaging,

Ruler 26 30 9

*196B Evidence Packaging 26 30 9

197 Duct Tape in Packaging 51 53 9

*197A Evidence Paint Can with

Packaging 51 53 9

*197B Evidence Sack with Ruler 51 53 9

198 Sock in Ziploc 54 55 9

*198A Evidence Paint Can with

Packaging 54 55 9

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OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER

STATE v. THOMAS OLIVAS 6

*198B Evidence Sack with Ruler 54 55 9

199 Blouse in Ziploc 15 17 9

*199A Evidence Paint Can with

Packaging 15 17 9

*199B Evidence Sack with Ruler 15 17 9

200 White Towel 12 14 9

*200A Evidence Sack, Packaging,

Ruler 12 14 9

202 Laptop in White Packaging 69 72 9

*202A Evidence Packaging 69 72 9

*202B Evidence Box 69 72 9

203 Thumb Drive in Ziploc 73 77 9

*203A Evidence Box 73 77 9

*203B Evidence Sack 73 77 9

204 Doorknob with Packaging 58 60 9

*204A Large Evidence Box 58 60 9

205 Doorknob with Packaging 56 57 9

*205A Large Evidence Box 56 57 9

206 Doorknob with Packaging 62 63 9

*206A Large Evidence Box 62 63 9

207 Doorknob with Packaging 64 65 9

*207A Large Evidence Box 64 65 9

208 Dead Bolt and Knob Assembly

with Packaging 66 68 9

*208A Large Evidence Box 66 68 9

209 Dead Bolt and Knob Assembly

with Packaging 60 61 9

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OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER

STATE v. THOMAS OLIVAS 7

*209A Large Evidence Box 60 61 9

DEFENDANT'S

NO. DESCRIPTION OFFERED ADMITTED VOL.

6 Diagram 115 115 9

7 Crime Scene Document with

Measurements 116 116 9

12 Photograph 127 127 9

13 Photograph 127 127 9

14 Photograph 127 127 9

15 Photograph 127 127 9

16 Photograph 127 127 9

17 Photograph 127 127 9

18 Photograph 137 137 9

19 Photograph 137 137 9

20 Photograph 137 137 9

21 Photograph 137 137 9

22 Photograph 137 137 9

23 Photograph 137 137 9

24 Photograph 137 137 9

25 Photograph 137 137 9

26 Photograph 137 137 9

27 Photograph 137 137 9

28 Photograph 137 137 9

29 Photograph 152 154 9

30 Diagram with Red Marks 168 168 9

31 Photograph 180 180 9

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OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER

STATE v. THOMAS OLIVAS 8

32 Photograph 180 180 9

33 Photograph 180 180 9

34 Photograph 180 180 9

35 Photograph 180 180 9

36 Photograph 180 180 9

37 Photograph 190 190 9

38 Photograph 190 190 9

39 Photograph 190 190 9

40 Photograph 190 190 9

41 Photograph 190 190 9

42 Photograph 190 190 9

43 Photograph 190 190 9

44 Photograph 198 198 9

45 Photograph 198 198 9

46 Photograph 198 198 9

47 Photograph 198 198 9

48 Photograph 198 198 9

49 Photograph 198 198 9

50 Photograph 198 198 9

51 Photograph 198 198 9

52 Photograph 198 198 9

53 Photograph 198 198 9

54 Photograph 198 198 9

55 Photograph 198 198 9

56 Photograph 198 198 9

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OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER

STATE v. THOMAS OLIVAS 9

57 Photograph 198 198 9

58 Photograph 198 198 9

59 Photograph 198 198 9

60 Photograph 198 198 9

61 Photograph 198 198 9

62 Photograph 198 198 9

63 Photograph 198 198 9

 

(*) Denotes an exhibit designated for the record only.

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OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER

STATE v. THOMAS OLIVAS 10

P R O C E E D I N G S

Friday, September 12, 2014 9:25 a.m.

(OPEN COURT, DEFENDANT AND JURY PRESENT)

(Witness on the stand)

THE COURT: Good morning, ladies and

gentlemen.

SEVERAL JURY MEMBERS: Good morning.

THE COURT: Everyone see I'm holding up the

blue card; is that right?

SEVERAL JURY MEMBERS: Yes.

THE COURT: You're all smiling. A lot of

you are reaching for your blue cards and you don't have

to do that. You just have to assure me, if you can,

that you have continued to follow those instructions

over the evening until you returned to us.

Did you do that?

SEVERAL JURY MEMBERS: Yes.

THE COURT: We thank you.

We're starting a little later, sorry. Got

here, more boxes. And it was my decision that -- get

everything marked, organized, everything, where everyone

can look at it and do whatever to speed up what is

sometimes a cumbersome and monotonous process. And so I

left you back there with the smorgasbord you brought in

and your coffee. I figured you're more comfortable

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OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER

STATE v. THOMAS OLIVAS 11

there than coming in and out of the courtroom. That was

largely my decision approving the lawyers getting it all

marked so it flows more smoothly when you're in the

courtroom.

Is everyone good to go?

SEVERAL JURY MEMBERS: Yes.

THE COURT: All right.

State, ready to proceed?

MS. RAY: Yes, Your Honor.

THE COURT: Defense ready to proceed?

MS. KEENE: We are, Judge.

THE COURT: All right. Still your witness,

Ms. Ray.

MS. RAY: Thank you, Your Honor.

May I approach the witness?

THE COURT: Yes.

INVESTIGATOR SHANNON FALLENTINE,

having been previously duly sworn, testified as follows:

DIRECT EXAMINATION CONTINUES

BY MS. RAY:

Q. Investigator Fallentine, I'm showing you what has

previously been marked as State's Exhibit 200 and 200-A.

Have you seen State's 200 and 200-A before?

A. Yes, I have.

Q. Okay. And what are State's 200 and 200-A?

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STATE v. THOMAS OLIVAS 12

A. SFR-18, white colored dishtowel with areas of

apparent blood, from evidence marker 17, collected March

21st, 2011.

Q. And have you had a chance to look at State's

Exhibit 200 and 200-A to find your markings?

A. Yes, I have.

Q. And you did that prior to the jury coming in,

just about five minutes ago?

A. Yes, I did.

Q. And are -- 200 and 200-A, do they have markings

of other individuals?

A. Yes, they do.

Q. Other than the markings of the other individuals,

are 200 and 200-A in the same condition they were when

you packaged them?

A. Yes, they are.

MS. RAY: Your Honor, I offer 200 and 200-A,

after tendering to Defense Counsel.

MS. KEENE: Can I take the witness on voir

dire?

THE COURT: Yes, you may.

VOIR DIRE EXAMINATION

BY MS. KEENE:

Q. Inside 200-A is a white paper and brown paper; is

that correct?

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OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER

STATE v. THOMAS OLIVAS 13

A. Yes, ma'am.

Q. And is that -- does that have any writings on it

at all?

A. Yes, it does. The brown paper bag is what I used

to collect it initially on scene and the white paper is

what I covered it with in the lab, both of which have my

initials on them.

Q. Other than your initials verifying that it's what

you collected, does it have any other writing on it, and

the date?

A. No, it does not.

Q. And then as far as in 300 -- or 200 itself, did

you actually mark the rag?

A. Yes, I did.

Q. Can you show me where on the rag you marked it?

Okay. So you marked the tag?

A. Yes, ma'am.

Q. And it's blurred out, but it was also wet when

you probably marked it?

A. Yes, ma'am. It's also a weave, so it will blur.

Q. But you feel confident that's your markings, even

though it's blurred out?

A. Yes, ma'am.

Q. There's also some holes with markings on it. So

there's more than just markings on the towel. There's

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OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER

STATE v. THOMAS OLIVAS 14

also holes in it?

A. Correct. That's intervention from a separate

party. Otherwise, it is the condition that I collected

it in.

Q. Okay. Where there's a hole -- where there's

holes and not a marking, was it in that condition when

you picked it up, that way?

A. Yes, the burn holes.

Q. Okay. So if there's a hole and marking, that's

something else, lab or somebody else did that?

A. Correct.

MS. KEENE: Okay. Judge, then I have no

objection to 200-A and 200 for all purposes.

THE COURT: All right. State's 200, bag and

contents, admitted all purposes; 200-A, admitted -- you

offered it for the record only?

MS. RAY: Yes, Your Honor.

THE COURT: -- for the record only.

(State's Exhibit No. 200, 200-A admitted)

DIRECT EXAMINATION CONTINUES

BY MS. RAY:

Q. Ms. Fallentine, I'm now showing you what has been

marked as State's Exhibit 199, State's 199-A and 199-B.

Are you familiar with these items?

A. Yes, I am.

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OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER

STATE v. THOMAS OLIVAS 15

Q. And what is State's Exhibit 199, 199-A and 199-B?

A. Original packaging, as well as laboratory

packaging and item SFR-23, black and white colored

button-up shirt, from evidence marker 22. It was on top

of the love seat, collected March 21st, 2011.

Q. And have you had an opportunity to look for your

markings on State's Exhibit 199, 199-A and 199-B?

A. Yes, I have.

Q. And do you see markings from other people?

A. Yes, I do.

Q. And other than the markings on -- from other

people, are State's Exhibit 199, 199-A and 199-B in the

same condition they were when you packaged them?

A. Yes, they are.

MS. RAY: I offer 199 for all purposes,

199-A and 199-B for purposes of the record.

MS. KEENE: And may I take the witness on

voir dire?

THE COURT: Yes, you may.

VOIR DIRE EXAMINATION

BY MS. KEENE:

Q. You are already opening up and showing me your

initials "SR"?

A. Yes, ma'am.

Q. And that's -- is that what you use to verify that

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STATE v. THOMAS OLIVAS 16

this is, indeed, the same shirt?

A. Yes, ma'am.

Q. And it appears to you there's other markings on

here, that the lab also did some work on this?

A. Yes, ma'am.

Q. And that's what the other markings are?

A. Yes, ma'am.

Q. That was not -- there wasn't a marking of CP or

something when you collected it?

A. No, ma'am.

Q. Okay. Did you put -- here we go. Is that your

marking right here? Am I seeing it -- did you put it in

the can?

A. Yes, ma'am.

Q. Okay.

MS. KEENE: Judge, I have no objection to

199-A and B for purposes of the record and 199 for all

purposes.

THE COURT: All right. For purposes of the

record I'm going to ask the attorneys -- they advised me

of this in private. There are many items that appear to

be in what looks like new Ziploc bags and it's my

understanding items removed from the evidence packaging

is described in the record, offered for the record, has

been put into new Ziploc bags by the court reporter at

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STATE v. THOMAS OLIVAS 17

the direction of the parties in the presence of

everyone.

For purposes of trial publication, it's the

contents of the bag that's being offered; is that an

accurate understanding on my part?

MS. RAY: Yes, Your Honor. The items were

placed in Ziploc bags.

THE COURT: That were previously in the

paper containers or cans or whatever might be in

evidence that were used for storage, that was done for

trial publication?

MS. RAY: Yes, Your Honor.

THE COURT: All right. And, Ms. Keene, you

agree with that?

MS. KEENE: Yes.

THE COURT: All right. Then 199, the baggie

and contents, is admitted, State's exhibit. State's

199-A and B are each admitted for the record only.

(State's Exhibit No. 199, 199-A, 199-B

admitted)

DIRECT EXAMINATION CONTINUES

BY MS. RAY:

Q. Investigator Fallentine, I'm showing you what has

been marked as 193 and 193-A. Can you take a look at

those? Have you seen State's Exhibit -- what are

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OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER

STATE v. THOMAS OLIVAS 18

State's Exhibits 193 and 193-A?

A. It's the packaging and item SFR-36, a wooden

knife block containing three black-handled knives,

evidence marker 35, in the kitchen of the unit,

collected March 21st, 2011.

Q. And did you recently have an opportunity to look

at State's Exhibit 193 and 193-A to find your markings?

A. Yes, I did.

Q. And are there markings from other individuals?

A. Yes, there are.

Q. Other than the markings from other individuals,

are State's Exhibit 193 and 193-A in the same condition

they were when you packaged them?

A. Yes, they are.

MS. RAY: Your Honor, I offer State's

Exhibit 193 and 193-A, after tendering to Defense

Counsel.

MS. KEENE: Judge, may I take the witness on

voir dire? She already knows the question.

VOIR DIRE EXAMINATION

BY MS. KEENE:

Q. Show me your markings.

And I believe I see an "SR". I believe so,

yes. And is that how you identify it as from being the

same block that you took from the Presidents Corner

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STATE v. THOMAS OLIVAS 19

apartment?

A. Yes, ma'am.

Q. As far as -- and there's also paper contained

inside of 193-A. Does that have any markings on it,

other than your initials?

A. My initials and my ID number.

Q. Okay. Is there any other writing at all on it?

A. Yes. There is writing from a separate party.

Q. So from like lab work or whatever?

A. Correct.

Q. Okay.

MS. KEENE: I have no objection to 193 for

all purposes and 193-A for purposes of the record.

THE COURT: All right. Just so I'm clear

what I'm looking at -- off the record.

(Discussion off the record)

THE COURT: Okay. Let's go back on the

record.

Since Karen can't write this down, the

parties have agreed, there is a grocery-colored evidence

storage sack that's marked for the record as 193-A.

Removed from it and marked is a white wrapping

surrounding and including what's been described in a

record as a knife block and three knives. So the

sticker is on the white outer wrapping, but the

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OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER

STATE v. THOMAS OLIVAS 20

wrapping, the block and the three knives, are all

offered as one package. And the wrapping is to help

keep stuff, smoke and all that that's on the block, it's

able to handle it and protect it for purposes of storage

and publication.

So you're offering the white material and

the block contained therein and the three knives?

MS. RAY: As 193, yes, Your Honor.

THE COURT: Yes. And the Defense

understands that.

MS. KEENE: We do, Judge. We have no

objection to that.

THE COURT: All right. So in case those

things were to be separated, it's all one package and

one exhibit. But the individual items of the block and

what's described in the record as three kitchen knives

are not individually marked. It's all one unit.

And 193 is admitted as offered, the whole

package of materials. And 193-A is admitted for the

record only.

(State's Exhibit No. 193, 193-A admitted)

DIRECT EXAMINATION CONTINUES

BY MS. RAY:

Q. Investigator Fallentine, I'm showing you what's

previously been marked as 194, 194-A and 194-B. Take a

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STATE v. THOMAS OLIVAS 21

look at those items?

What are they?

A. Packaging and a box containing item 13B, as in

boy. A black-handled, long-blade knife, with unknown

red stain. This is going to be from the bar top at

evidence marker 12, collected March 21st, 2011.

Q. And did you have an opportunity to look to see if

you recognize your markings on State's Exhibit

194, 194-A and 194-B?

A. Yes, I did.

Q. And did you do that?

A. Yes.

Q. And did you see markings belonging to other

people?

A. Yes, I did.

Q. Other than the markings from other people, are

State's Exhibit 194, 194-A and 194-B in the same

condition they were when you packaged them?

A. Yes, they are.

MS. RAY: And, Your Honor, I offer State's

Exhibit 194, 194-A and 194 -- sorry -- 194 for all

purposes, 194-A and 194-B for purposes of the record

only.

MS. KEENE: And I'm taking the witness on

voir dire. May I?

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STATE v. THOMAS OLIVAS 22

THE COURT: Yes, you may.

VOIR DIRE EXAMINATION

BY MS. KEENE:

Q. You just pointed to me a super tiny "SR"; is that

correct?

A. Yes, ma'am.

Q. And is that how you recognize this knife,

basically?

A. Yes, it is.

Q. What is 194.

MS. KEENE: And, Judge, this may be a good

item to put in the two-gallon sack.

THE COURT: Off the record.

(Discussion off the record)

MS. RAY: I have no objection, Your Honor.

THE COURT: All right.

MS. KEENE: And I have no objection as

offered.

THE COURT: All right. Then 194-A and

194-B, State's exhibits, admitted for the record.

State's 194, described in the record as a knife, is

admitted, and it and the protective paper have all been

placed in the two-gallon Ziploc bag for purpose of the

exhibition and publication, but the exhibit's marked on

the face of the exhibit.

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STATE v. THOMAS OLIVAS 23

(State's Exhibit No. 194, 194-A, 194-B

admitted)

DIRECT EXAMINATION CONTINUES

BY MS. RAY:

Q. Investigator Fallentine. I'm now handing you

what's been marked as 195, 195-A and 195-B. And what

are those?

A. This is the packaging and a box containing

SFR-37, two brown-handled kitchen knives from the

kitchen countertop, at evidence marker 36, collected

March 21st, 2011.

Q. And have you had an opportunity to examine it and

see if you can find your markings?

A. Yes, I have.

Q. And did you find your markings?

A. Yes, I did.

Q. Other -- were -- did you also notice markings of

other individuals?

A. Yes, I did.

Q. Other than the markings by other people, are

State's Exhibit No. 195, 195-A and 195-B in the same

condition they were when you packaged them?

A. Yes, they are.

Q. And 195-A has been placed in a Ziploc bag,

correct?

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STATE v. THOMAS OLIVAS 24

A. Yes.

Q. Okay. And did you do that, did you put it in the

Ziploc bag?

A. No.

MS. RAY: Your Honor, at this time I offer

State's Exhibit 195, 195-A -- I'm sorry -- 195 for all

purposes, 195-A and B for purposes of the record only.

MS. KEENE: And, Judge, may I take the

witness on voir dire?

THE COURT: Yes.

VOIR DIRE EXAMINATION

BY MS. KEENE:

Q. You've just shown me your initials on the butt of

the blade. Is that what you described that?

A. The base of the blade near the handle.

Q. The base of the blade near the handle.

And is that how -- is that the -- what you

used to identify and know that's the same knives that

you recovered from the scene?

A. Yes, ma'am.

Q. The white paper, is that -- that's what you --

there's no other markings on it other than your evidence

markers and your initials?

A. That's correct.

MS. KEENE: Judge, I have no objection to

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STATE v. THOMAS OLIVAS 25

State's Exhibit No. 195, although I need to look at

these.

I have no objection to 195-B for purposes of

the record.

THE COURT: Or A? Or A?

MS. KEENE: Or A.

THE COURT: All right. State's 195-A,

195-B, admitted for the record only. For the record,

195 looks to me, again, like a court reporter Ziploc

bag. It's the contents. What's been described as white

paper and two kitchen knives that's offered into

evidence as placed in 195, the bag, for publication

purposes.

Am I correct in that?

MS. RAY: Yes, Your Honor.

THE COURT: Joetta, do you agree?

MS. KEENE: Yes.

THE COURT: All right. Then 195 and

contents are all admitted for all purposes.

(State's Exhibit No. 195, 195-A, 195-B

admitted)

DIRECT EXAMINATION CONTINUES

BY MS. RAY:

Q. I'm now handing you what have been marked as

State's Exhibit 196, 196-A and 196-B. What are those

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STATE v. THOMAS OLIVAS 26

items?

A. This is the packaging and a box containing item

SFR-38. These are three knives from the inside of the

dishwasher, evidence marker number 37, collected

3/21/2011.

Q. And did you look for it and find your markings on

State's Exhibit 196, 196-A and 196-B?

A. Yes, I did.

Q. And do you see markings belonging to other

people?

A. Yes, I do.

Q. Other than the markings belonging to other

people, are State's Exhibit 196, 196-A and 196-B in the

same condition they were when you packaged them?

A. The box has a little bit damage, exterior box.

Other items appear undamaged and unchanged.

MS. RAY: Your Honor, I offer State's

Exhibit 196 for all purposes, 196-A and 196-B for

purposes of the record only.

MS. KEENE: May I take the witness on voir

dire?

THE COURT: Yes, you may.

VOIR DIRE EXAMINATION

BY MS. KEENE:

Q. So 196 is basically three knives, correct?

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STATE v. THOMAS OLIVAS 27

A. Yes, ma'am.

Q. And you see your initials at the base of the --

right above the grip?

A. Yes, ma'am.

Q. There's also white paper contained in the

sandwich bag, or whatever it's called, the bag?

A. Yes, ma'am.

Q. Does that white paper have your markings on it?

A. Yes, it does.

Q. And only your markings?

A. There are markings from another individual from

the lab on the back.

Q. Okay. Other than that, is there any other

markings on the bag?

A. No, ma'am.

Q. You talked about now in 196-A as having the --

the box being compromised. Do you know how that

happened?

A. I do not. The initial tape I placed on the edge

of the box is still there. It's just been torn or

ripped.

Q. If you're staring at the box, it would be to the

right corner?

A. Yes, ma'am.

Q. And that's on 196-A?

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STATE v. THOMAS OLIVAS 28

A. Yes, ma'am.

Q. Does that give you any concern about the

integrity of what was inside 196-A?

A. No, ma'am, because it was sealed by me in the

proper fashion when I submitted it to the lab.

Q. But as far as after that? Does that make sense?

A. No, ma'am.

Q. Okay. Did -- on 196, the white packing, did that

seal the knives?

A. Yes, it did.

Q. So the -- these were sealed inside the white

packaging, which are then sealed inside the box?

A. Yes, ma'am.

Q. So if the box was compromised, the white

packaging was not?

A. Correct. Well, as would be the brown packaging,

which I don't see evidence of compromised seals on this.

It's not damaged other than being opened.

Q. Okay. So other than 196-A having been

compromised, the outside packaging of 196-A, being

196-B, was not compromised and then the inside packaging

of 196 was not compromised?

A. Correct.

Q. So you feel comfortable that these are in same

condition and weren't compromised as a piece of

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STATE v. THOMAS OLIVAS 29

evidence?

A. Yes, ma'am.

Q. All right. And is it -- and you said it was your

item number 37, but you have SFR-38 on there.

A. I believe I said evidence marker 37 and the item

number is SFR-38. The evidence markers are what I place

on scene for demonstrative purposes. The actual item

number, SFR-38, is for our property room.

Q. Okay. So if we're looking at pictures, that's

the numbers I would love for you to be giving us.

A. Okay.

Q. Is that the SFR-38?

A. No. That's going to be evidence marker number

37. The yellow placard that we see in the photographs,

that will be the evidence marker number.

Q. Okay. Is that number that you've been giving us,

is the evidence number?

A. I've been giving you both of them.

Q. Oh, okay. And that was just -- just the one that

was different, so it seemed. Okay. I understand.

MS. KEENE: I have no objection to State's

Exhibit 196 for all purposes and State's Exhibit 196-A

and B for purposes of the record.

THE COURT: All right. State's 196, Ziploc

freezer bag, and what's described for the record as

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STATE v. THOMAS OLIVAS 30

three knives and white evidence paper, the package

exhibit is admitted as offered. State's 196-A and B are

each admitted for the record for the only, all State's

exhibits.

(State's Exhibit No. 196, 196-A, 196-B

admitted)

DIRECT EXAMINATION CONTINUES

BY MS. RAY:

Q. I'm now showing you -- I'm handing you what have

been marked as State's Exhibit 186, 186-A and 186-B.

What are these items?

A. This is item SFR-19. It is made up of packaging,

including a box, containing a white-colored disposable

lighter that was located at evidence marker number 18.

It's going to be the back patio table. And collected

March 21st, 2011.

Q. And have you looked for and found your markings

on these items?

A. All but the actual lighter itself. I was unable

to locate my initials on the bottom of the lighter where

I normally place them. There is a good deal of soot and

someone else's markings on the bottom of the lighter.

Q. And do you have photos of this item?

A. Yes, I do.

Q. And did you compare them and see if they were

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STATE v. THOMAS OLIVAS 31

similar to the item that you're holding in State's

Exhibit No. 186?

A. They are similar. However, it is a generic item.

It's a white lighter. The box was sealed with my

markings, my initials. The bag was also sealed with my

marking and initials. But, unfortunately, it was an

error that I did not put my initials on the base of the

lighter.

Q. The -- other than the markings from other people,

do State's Exhibits 186, 186-A and 186-B appear to be in

the same condition as they were when you packaged them?

A. They do.

MS. RAY: Your Honor, I offer State's

Exhibit 186 for all purposes and 186-A and 186-B for

purposes of the record.

VOIR DIRE EXAMINATION

BY MS. KEENE:

Q. Okay. On 186-B you see your initials; is that

correct?

A. Yes, ma'am. They're on the back seal, as well as

on the label.

Q. And you would have placed a white lighter in a

box that would have been placed in 186-B?

A. Correct.

Q. And then in 186-A, you see your initials on this

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STATE v. THOMAS OLIVAS 32

box, as well?

A. I do.

Q. And does the tag number of 19 match which -- the

contents that this is?

A. The writings do match, yes.

Q. In other words, 19 is supposed to be a white

lighter?

A. Yes, ma'am.

Q. And so, although, you don't see your initials on

the bottom of 186, you could deduce that this is,

indeed, the same white lighter you put in there?

A. I feel confident, yes.

Q. And you deduce it because it looks just like the

white lighter -- it is a white lighter, but it does look

like the one you collected?

A. Yes, it does.

Q. And it was also put in a box labeled -- that was

labeled basically to be a white lighter?

A. Yes, ma'am.

Q. And it was sealed and put your initials on it?

A. Yes, ma'am.

Q. And then it was put into another bag with your

initials on it, labeled a white lighter, sealed?

A. Yes, ma'am.

Q. And you feel confident even without the initials

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STATE v. THOMAS OLIVAS 33

that this is, indeed, the same white lighter?

A. Yes, I do.

Q. Unless something just crazy happened, somebody

stole the white lighter and put a new white lighter in

there, this would be it?

A. I suppose, yes.

Q. Right.

MS. KEENE: So, Judge, we have no objection

to 186 for all purposes, based on her testimony, and the

rest for purposes of the record.

THE COURT: All right. State's 186 is

admitted as offered, State's 186. State's 186-A and B

are admitted for the record only.

(State's Exhibit No. 186, 186-A, 186-B

admitted)

DIRECT EXAMINATION CONTINUES

BY MS. RAY:

Q. I'm now handing you State's Exhibit 189, 189-A,

189-B, and 189-C. What are these items?

A. Packaging containing SFR-47, a small camera case,

a Nikon Coolpix S560 camera and a plastic bag containing

cables. These were located at -- in an end table at the

edge of the hallway and living room areas. Collected

March 21st, 2011.

Q. And did you look and find your markings on each

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STATE v. THOMAS OLIVAS 34

of these items?

A. Yes, I did.

Q. And did you see markings belonging to other

people?

A. Yes, I did.

Q. Other than the markings belonging to other

people, are State's Exhibits 189, 189-A, B and C in the

same condition they were when you collected them?

A. Yes, they are.

MS. RAY: Your Honor, I offer State's

Exhibit 189 for all purposes and then 189-A, B and C for

purposes of the record only.

MS. KEENE: And can I take the witness on

voir dire, Judge?

THE COURT: Yep.

VOIR DIRE EXAMINATION

BY MS. KEENE:

Q. I assume you are showing me what is going to be

marked as -- on 189 as your initials?

A. Yes, ma'am.

Q. And as evidenced in the last, with the white

lighter, why do you put your initials on the item, even

though you put it all the bags?

A. We initial the evidence items just as an

additional step to help in court to identify these as

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STATE v. THOMAS OLIVAS 35

items that we collected on scene.

Q. And know that it's not just some other person's

camera put in there?

A. Correct.

Q. Okay. So show me where your initials are. And

you learn to write really tiny.

A. I actually don't like writing on evidence as a

personal rule, but it's policy.

Q. I got you. All right. So I see it. And then --

A. This bag was what the cables were contained in;

therefore, the bag was initialed, and I did not take

cable out of that bag.

Q. So the bag attached, is it -- the clear plastic

bag attached to 189-C was actually found at the scene

and contained the cables?

A. Correct.

Q. They were part of the evidence, and that's why

you have your initials on it?

A. Correct.

Q. Now, you're showing me the bag that the case that

the camera was -- was the camera actually in that bag?

A. Yes, it was.

Q. And that's your initials to let you know it's the

same bag that the camera was in?

A. Yes, ma'am.

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STATE v. THOMAS OLIVAS 36

Q. That was found at the scene?

A. Yes, ma'am.

Q. Okay. And what about the -- yes, I see that.

What about the cables, did you do anything

with them?

A. I did not initial the cables because they were

inside of that bag. I did not remove them. So I

initialed the camera because I took it out of the bag,

but as I didn't take anything out of this bag, I only

initialed the bag and not the cables.

Q. Okay. And then they were placed in C and -- in B

and C in their relative -- was the camera placed in B

and the rest -- the other was placed in C?

A. Yes, ma'am. The camera was placed inside of a

box to protect it from any damage. The cables and the

little bag were placed inside of the larger packaging

bag with the box containing the camera.

Q. Okay. Let me see that box.

MS. KEENE: All right. I have no objection,

Judge, to any of these as offered.

THE COURT: All right. State's 189 is in a

bag. Is the bag marked or is the item marked? I think

the bag is marked, but I'm not sure.

MS. RAY: The bag is marked for 189.

THE COURT: All right. The baggie and

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STATE v. THOMAS OLIVAS 37

contents, 189, is admitted. State's 189-A, 189-B, 189-C

are all admitted for the record only, all

State's exhibits.

(State's Exhibit No. 189, 189-A, 189-B,

189-C admitted)

DIRECT EXAMINATION CONTINUES

BY MS. RAY:

Q. Now handing you what have been marked as State's

Exhibit 185, 185-A and 185-B. What are those items?

A. The packaging and a box containing SFR-35, a blue

disposable lighter, located on a countertop within the

kitchen, at evidence marker number 34, collected March

21st, 2011.

Q. And have you had an opportunity to look at

State's Exhibit 185, 185-A and 185-B to find -- locate

your markings?

A. Yes, I have.

Q. And are there markings belonging to other

subsequent lab people?

A. Yes, there are.

Q. Other than the markings made by other people, are

State's Exhibit 185, 185-A and 185-B in the same

condition they were when you packaged them?

A. Yes, they are.

MS. RAY: Your Honor, I offer State's

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STATE v. THOMAS OLIVAS 38

Exhibit 185, 185-A and 185-B, after tendering to Defense

Counsel.

MS. KEENE: May I take this witness on voir

dire?

THE COURT: Yes.

VOIR DIRE EXAMINATION

BY MS. KEENE:

Q. So on 185, the blue Cowboys lighter, your

initials are on the bottom of that; is that correct?

A. Yes, ma'am.

MS. KEENE: Judge, I have no objection to

185-A and B for purposes of the record and 185 for all

purposes.

THE COURT: All right. They are each

admitted as offered.

(State's Exhibit No. 185, 185-A, 185-B

admitted)

DIRECT EXAMINATION CONTINUES

BY MS. RAY:

Q. I'm handing you what have been marked as 191,

191-A and 191-B. What are these items?

A. Packaging and two boxes, each of which contained

a set of keys on rings. This is item SFR-24, collected

at evidence marker number 23, which was the floor along

the east side of the desk in the living room, collected

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STATE v. THOMAS OLIVAS 39

March 21st, 2011.

Q. And have you had an opportunity to look at these

items and locate your markings?

A. Yes, I have.

Q. And are there markings belonging to other people?

A. Yes, there are.

Q. Other than the markings belonging to other

people, are these items packaged -- I'm sorry -- are

these items -- do they appear to be the same as they

were when you packaged them?

A. Yes, they do.

MS. RAY: Your Honor, I offer State's

Exhibit No. 192, 192-A and 192-B -- I'm sorry -- 192 for

all purposes, 192-A and 192-B for the record.

MS. KEENE: May I take the witness on voir

dire, Judge?

THE COURT: Yes.

VOIR DIRE EXAMINATION

BY MS. KEENE:

Q. Okay. Is the little "SR" at the bottom of the --

which I think you described earlier as a Honda key, or

what appears to be a Honda key?

A. Yes, ma'am.

Q. And that's the only marking on the whole

grouping?

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STATE v. THOMAS OLIVAS 40

A. Yes, ma'am.

Q. And that's how you use to identify this would be

the same?

A. Yes, ma'am.

Q. And then there's an "SR". Okay. This could also

be the Honda key, or whatever, a black key?

A. They're both Honda keys.

Q. They're both Honda keys?

A. Yes, ma'am.

Q. Okay. So another Honda key with an "SR" at the

base of that key?

A. Yes, ma'am.

Q. And that's what you just showed me on 192?

A. Yes, ma'am.

(Pause in proceedings)

THE COURT: All right. While that tender

offer is pending, do you want to ask additional

questions?

MS. RAY: Yes. Sorry, we're getting these

numbers mixed up.

DIRECT EXAMINATION CONTINUES

BY MS. RAY:

Q. Okay. State's Exhibit 191, what was State's

Exhibit 191?

A. It is one of the set of keys collected as a

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STATE v. THOMAS OLIVAS 41

two-part set of keys. The same item number on my end,

separate exhibit number for you, had an SFR-24.

Q. And State's 191-A, is that -- what is that?

A. It is a white box I used to contain those keys.

Q. And State's Exhibit 191 and 191-A, did you see

your markings?

A. Yes, I did.

Q. And did you see markings belonging to other

people?

A. Other than your tag, that -- that's the only

other markings on there.

Q. So are State's Exhibit 191 and 191-A in the same

condition they were when you packaged them?

A. Yes, they are.

MS. RAY: Your Honor, I offer State's

Exhibit 191 for all purposes, 191-A for purposes of the

record.

MS. KEENE: Judge, I've looked at both of

them. No objection as offered.

MS. RAY: And State's Exhibit 191-B for

purposes of the record only.

MS. KEENE: No objection.

THE COURT: So I'm clear, 191 and 192 both

come out of 192-B? Is that the confusion?

MS. RAY: Yes, Your Honor.

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STATE v. THOMAS OLIVAS 42

THE COURT: Do you agree with that, Joetta?

MS. KEENE: Yes.

THE COURT: All right.

Then 192-B, the evidence sack is admitted

for the record only and 192-A and 191-A, the evidence

boxes, are admitted for the record only. State's

Exhibit No. 191 and 192, the plastic bags containing

contents describing each as keys are admitted for all

purposes.

(State's Exhibit No. 191, 191-A, 192,

192-A, 192-B admitted)

MS. RAY: And just so I'm clear, Your Honor,

191-B is the packaging. 191-B.

THE COURT: Oh, 191-B. I'm sorry. Thank

you.

State's 192-A and 191-A are both boxes.

MS. RAY: Yes, Your Honor.

THE COURT: Gotcha.

(State's Exhibit 191-B admitted)

Q. (BY MS. RAY) I'm now handing you State's Exhibit

No. 190 and 190-A. What are these items?

A. It's my packaging, as well as Investigator

Weaver's packaging, for item SFR-21, which is a Verizon

LG brand cellular phone, evidence marker 20, which would

have been the living room floor, collected March 21st,

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STATE v. THOMAS OLIVAS 43

2011.

Q. Who's Investigator Weaver?

A. He is one of our electronic crime detectives. I

believe he investigated the contents of the phone, or at

leas attempted to.

Q. And have you had an opportunity to find your

markings on State's Exhibit No. 190 and 190-A?

A. Yes, I have.

Q. And other than the markings that you made and the

markings that Investigator Weaver made, are State's

Exhibit 190 and 190-A in the same condition they were

when you packaged them?

A. Yes, they are. They are, except that they're

not -- that -- when I packaged them, they were all in

one piece. This was one cellular phone and now it's

multiple pieces of a cellular phone. I assume that's

part of his investigation, but I don't know that,

though.

Q. And it's your understanding that Detective Weaver

is in charge of analyzing cell phones? He's in the

forensic digital unit where they investigate computers

and cell phones and that sort of thing?

A. That's correct.

MS. RAY: Your Honor, I offer State's

Exhibit No. 190 and 190-A after tendering -- I'm

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STATE v. THOMAS OLIVAS 44

sorry -- 190 for all purposes and 190-A for purposes of

the record.

MS. KEENE: Can I take the witness on voir

dire, Judge?

THE COURT: Yes.

VOIR DIRE EXAMINATION

BY MS. KEENE:

Q. There's a box contained in 190; is that correct?

A. Yes, ma'am.

Q. And is that your initials on the box?

A. Yes, ma'am. That was how I initially packaged

it, was in that box.

Q. Okay. And 190 is in a different kind of a sack;

is that correct?

A. Yes.

Q. Would you have actually marked the cell phone?

A. Yes, I did.

Q. Okay. Can you show us that?

A. Yes. May I have something to cut this open with?

Q. Okay. So was that -- the piece that you

initialed was actually on the inside of the phone?

A. Yes. The way that I do cell phones is to remove

the back cover and initial on the sticker. Just in case

someone gets their property back at some point, they

don't want my initials on the screen of their phone. In

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STATE v. THOMAS OLIVAS 45

this case, irrelevant, but...

Q. Right. I understand. So basically it's on the

inside of the phone?

A. Yes, ma'am.

Q. And when you submitted the phone, it was not in

three pieces like that?

A. No, ma'am.

Q. Or however many pieces it is.

A. I replace the cover when I'm done.

Q. And I just need to see the bag.

MS. KEENE: Judge, I have no objection to

State's Exhibit 190 provided Weaver -- I assume Weaver

is going to come and say he took that phone apart. So

other than that being tied up, I don't have any

objection to it. And then I have no objection to 190-A

for purposes of the record.

MS. RAY: And, Your Honor, yes, Detective

Weaver will be testifying.

THE COURT: All right. Then I'll

conditionally admit 190 under Rule 104. And I will

admit 190-A for the record.

(State's Exhibit No. 190, 190-A admitted)

DIRECT EXAMINATION CONTINUES

BY MS. RAY:

Q. I'm now handing you State's Exhibit No. 190 --

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STATE v. THOMAS OLIVAS 46

sorry -- 187, 187-A and 187-B. What are these items?

A. Packaging, including the white box used to

contain item SFR-16, a disposable lighter, white with

red lettering, from evidence marker 15, the floor to the

west of the desk in the living room, collected March

21st 2011.

Q. And have you had an opportunity to look at those

items and see if you can find your markings?

A. Yes, I have.

Q. And were they present?

A. Yes, they are.

Q. Do you see markings belonging to other people?

A. Yes, I do.

Q. Other than those markings from other people, are

State's Exhibits 187, 187-A and 187-B in the same

condition they were when you packaged them?

A. Yes, they are.

MS. RAY: Your Honor, I offer 187 for all

purposes, 187-A and 187-B for purpose of the record

only.

MS. KEENE: Judge, may I take the witness on

voir dire?

THE COURT: Yes.

VOIR DIRE EXAMINATION

BY MS. KEENE:

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STATE v. THOMAS OLIVAS 47

Q. You've just shown me your initials on the bottom

of 187; is that correct?

A. Yes, ma'am.

MS. KEENE: Judge, I have no objection to

187-A and B for purposes of the record and 187 for all

purposes.

THE COURT: All right. State's 187 is

admitted for all purposes. State's 187-A, the box; B,

the evidence bag, are admitted solely for the record,

all State's exhibits.

(State's Exhibit No. 187, 187-A, 187-B

admitted)

DIRECT EXAMINATION CONTINUES

BY MS. RAY:

Q. I am now handing you items -- or State's

Exhibits 188, 188-A, 188-B and 188-C. If you could take

a look at these items. What are they?

A. It's packaging, including a box containing a

Nikon Coolpix 5600 camera, camera case and two

batteries. This is item SFR-50, 5-0, was located within

the closet in the master bedroom, collected March 21st,

2011.

Q. And do you see your markings on these items?

A. Yes, I do.

Q. And are there items -- markings of other people?

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STATE v. THOMAS OLIVAS 48

A. Yes, there are.

Q. And other than the markings by -- made by other

people, are State's Exhibit 188, 188-A, B and C in the

same condition they were when you packaged them?

A. Yes, they are.

MS. RAY: Your Honor, I offer States's

Exhibit 188, for all purposes, 188-B for all purposes,

188-A and C for purposes of the record only.

MS. KEENE: Judge, may I take the witness on

voir dire?

THE COURT: Yes, you may.

VOIR DIRE EXAMINATION

BY MS. KEENE:

Q. Did you just show me -- opened up the SD card

slot and showed me on your flap your initials?

A. Yes, ma'am.

Q. And that's how you identified as being the same

camera that you recovered at the scene?

A. Yes, ma'am.

Q. And then -- and that's in 188; is that correct?

A. Yes, ma'am.

Q. Was there an SD card in it?

A. Yes, ma'am.

Q. And it still is in the camera?

A. Yes, ma'am.

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STATE v. THOMAS OLIVAS 49

Q. Okay. So you're showing me a Samsonite case, and

I will take you at your word that your initials in

there. You've gotten so tiny.

A. I'm going to start writing larger.

Q. Okay. But you feel confident this is the same

case that you recovered from the scene?

A. Yes, ma'am.

Q. And by those initials that you actually found

again?

A. Yes, ma'am.

MS. KEENE: I don't have any -- wait a

minute. Let me see that bag.

Q. (BY MS. KEENE) Were -- did you put the camera --

the camera was in the bag?

A. Correct. When I collected it at the scene, it

went -- it was in the bag, which went into the original

packaging, and then that was repackaged at the lab with

a box.

Q. And that's not your handwriting, though, on the

original packaging?

A. No. That's an assistant who was actually writing

as I was collecting the items because my hands were

covered with soot and filth.

Q. Okay. It appears to be a guy's handwriting?

A. It is. It's SCI Fernandes.

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STATE v. THOMAS OLIVAS 50

Q. Okay. SCI who?

A. Fernandes.

Q. Okay. And he was helping you collect the

evidence and mark it?

A. Yes, ma'am.

Q. And so you feel confident that that's also yours?

A. Yes, ma'am. I verified the information on the

bag at the lab when I returned with the evidence in each

case.

Q. And then your markings are also on the outside of

188-C?

A. Yes, ma'am.

MS. KEENE: We have no objection to 188 for

all purposes, B for all purposes, C for purposes of the

record and A for purposes of the record.

THE COURT: All right. And 188 is the bag

containing the camera, which contains the SD card which

is marked.

MS. RAY: Yes, Your Honor.

THE COURT: All right. Then 188, baggie and

all contents, is admitted. State's Exhibit 188-B is

admitted for all purposes and 188-A and C are admitted

for the record only, All State's exhibits.

(State's Exhibit No. 188, 188-A, 188-B,

188-C admitted)

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STATE v. THOMAS OLIVAS 51

DIRECT EXAMINATION CONTINUES

BY MS. RAY:

Q. I'm now handing you what have been marked as

State's Exhibit 197, 197-A and 197-B. What are these

items?

A. It's packaging containing a paint can, containing

original packaging for SFR-48, a roll of duct tape with

an unknown red stain. This was from the floor in the

living room, collected March 21st, 2011.

Q. And did you look to see if you saw your markings

on these items?

A. Yes, I did.

Q. And do you see markings belonging to other

people?

A. Yes, I do.

Q. Other than the markings from other people, are

State's Exhibit 197, 197-A and B in the same condition

they were when you packaged them?

A. Yes, they are.

MS. RAY: Your Honor, I offer State's

Exhibit No. 197 for all purposes, 197-A and 197-B for

purposes of the record only.

MS. KEENE: May I take the witness on voir

dire?

THE COURT: For future reference, if you

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STATE v. THOMAS OLIVAS 52

don't want to take the witness on voir dire, say it's

not necessary and I have no objections. If you do, just

ask your questions. That will save us a few seconds.

MS. KEENE: Okay. Thank you, Judge.

THE COURT: Not a problem.

Ms. Ray, are you okay with that?

MS. RAY: Yes, Your Honor.

THE COURT: All right. Then you may

continue.

VOIR DIRE EXAMINATION

BY MS. KEENE:

Q. You just handed me a gray duct tape?

A. Yes, ma'am.

Q. Actually called Duck, correct?

A. Yes.

Q. And it's State's Exhibit No. 197 and you showed

me a small "SR" that was on the inside?

A. Yes, ma'am.

Q. And this is duct tape you collected at the scene?

A. Yes, ma'am.

Q. And you put it inside of 197?

A. Yes, I did.

Q. Whatever that is, A?

A. 197-A.

Q. Okay. Which then went inside 197-B?

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STATE v. THOMAS OLIVAS 53

A. Yes, ma'am.

MS. KEENE: Judge, I have no objection to

197-A and B for the record and 197 for all purposes.

THE COURT: All right. Exhibits 197 is

admitted and 197-A and B are admitted for the record

only, all State's exhibits.

(State's Exhibit No. 197, 197-A, 197-B

admitted)

DIRECT EXAMINATION CONTINUES

BY MS. RAY:

Q. Now handing you State's Exhibit 198, 198-A and

198-B. What are these items?

A. It's a small paint can enclosed in a paper bag

packaging, containing SFR-39, one black and white

colored sock. This was at evidence marker 38, right

outside of the front door, collected March 21st, 2011.

Q. And have you looked for and found your markings

on these items?

A. Yes, I have.

Q. Are there markings from other people?

A. Yes, there are.

Q. Other than the markings from other people, are

State's Exhibit 198, 198-A and B in the same condition

they were when you packaged them?

A. Yes, they are.

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STATE v. THOMAS OLIVAS 54

MS. RAY: Your Honor, I offer State's

Exhibit 198 for all purposes and 198-A and B for the

record.

VOIR DIRE EXAMINATION

BY MS. KEENE:

Q. All right. So what's in a paper bag appears to

black and white sock with your initials "SR" on top?

A. Yes.

Q. And then there's some other initials which are

potentially lab folks or someone?

A. Correct.

Q. And this is the same black and white sock that

you recovered from the scene?

A. Yes, ma'am.

Q. In 198.

And you put 198 in 198-A?

A. Yes, I did.

Q. And you put 198-A in 198-B?

A. Yes, I did.

Q. And your initials are in each of those places?

A. Yes, ma'am.

MS. KEENE: Judge, we have no objection to

198 for all purposes and 198-A and B for purposes of the

record.

THE COURT: If I heard you correctly when

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STATE v. THOMAS OLIVAS 55

you first showed her the exhibit, you said in a paper

bag. Did you mean a plastic bag?

MS. KEENE: I did.

THE COURT: All right. So it's a clear

Ziploc bag --

MS. KEENE: It is, Judge.

THE COURT: -- you can see the sock. All

right.

With that understanding, 198, the bag

containing sock and the sock are admitted as offered.

Exhibits 198-A and B are admitted for the record, all

State's exhibits.

(State's Exhibit No. 198, 198-A, 198-B

admitted)

DIRECT EXAMINATION CONTINUES

BY MS. RAY:

Q. I'm now handing you State's Exhibits 205 and

205-A. What are those items?

A. It is a square box wrapped in brown paper

containing SFR-9, which is a doorknob assembly located

at evidence marker number eight, which would be master

bathroom door of the apartment. I collected it March

21st, 2011.

Q. And did you have an opportunity to look for your

markings on State's Exhibit 205 and 205-A?

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OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER

STATE v. THOMAS OLIVAS 56

A. Yes, I did.

Q. And for the record, 205 is -- the doorknob is

contained inside of -- or 205 is the doorknob and the

brown wrapping over it?

A. Okay.

Q. Is that --

A. Yes --

Q. -- right?

A. -- it appears to be, yes.

Q. And do you see -- you saw your markings?

A. Yes.

Q. And did you see markings of other people?

A. Yes, I did.

Q. Other than the markings of other people, are

State's Exhibit No. 205 and 205-A in the same condition

they were when you packaged them?

A. Yes.

MS. RAY: Your Honor, I offer State's

Exhibit No. 205 for all purposes and 205-A for purposes

of the record only.

VOIR DIRE EXAMINATION

BY MS. KEENE:

Q. You've just shown me your SR markings on the

actual doorknob piece?

A. The portion of the door, yes.

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STATE v. THOMAS OLIVAS 57

Q. Portion of the door attached to the doorknob?

A. Yes.

Q. And that's part of the exhibit which is No. 205?

A. Yes, ma'am.

Q. And that's -- you put that inside of that bag,

which is labeled 205, as well?

A. Yes, I did.

Q. Okay. So 205 is both the bag and the doorknob?

A. Yes.

Q. All right. And now -- and then you put that in

205-A?

A. Yes, I did.

Q. You just showed me at least two different places

where you have put your signature?

A. Yes, ma'am.

MS. KEENE: Judge, we have no objection to

205, which is the doorknob, as well as the bag, coming

in for all purposes, and for 205-A for purposes of the

record.

THE COURT: All right. State's 205,

described as a bag containing part of a door with

doorknob, the composite exhibit, is admitted as offered

and 205-A is admitted for the record only.

(State's Exhibit No. 205, 205-A admitted)

DIRECT EXAMINATION CONTINUES

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OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER

STATE v. THOMAS OLIVAS 58

BY MS. RAY:

Q. Now handing you State's Exhibits No. 204 and

204-A. What are these items?

A. It is a square cardboard box with brown paper

covering, containing SFR-6, which is a doorknob assembly

from evidence marker number five. That's going to be

the portion of broken door that was outside of the

master bedroom of the apartment. Date collected,

3/21/2011.

Q. And have you had -- have you found your markings

on State's Exhibit No. 204 and 204-A?

A. Yes, I have.

Q. Do you see markings belonging to other people?

A. Yes, I do.

Q. Other than the markings of other people, are

State's Exhibit 204 and 204-A in the same condition they

were when you packaged them?

A. Yes, they are.

MS. RAY: Your Honor, I offer State's

Exhibit No. 204, which is the doorknob and the wrapping

around it and State's Exhibit No. 204-A for the record

only.

VOIR DIRE EXAMINATION

BY MS. KEENE:

Q. And you just showed me the part of the door where

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STATE v. THOMAS OLIVAS 59

you put your initials "SR"?

A. Yes, ma'am.

Q. And that door is put inside the bag that is

labeled 204?

A. Yes.

Q. And in the bag you've got your initials on it,

too; is that correct?

A. Yes, ma'am.

Q. Okay. Let me see that.

You also marked the outside of the box with

your initials?

A. Yes, ma'am.

Q. And that is in 204-A?

A. Yes, ma'am.

Q. So basically you put 204, the doorknob, inside

204, the bag?

A. Yes.

Q. And then you put those inside 204-A?

A. Yes, ma'am.

Q. And you marked all of them?

A. Yes, I did.

MS. KEENE: I have no objection, Judge, to

204 for all purposes and 204-A for purposes of the

record.

THE COURT: All right. State's 204, the

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STATE v. THOMAS OLIVAS 60

composite exhibit, is admitted as offered. State's

Exhibit No. 204-A is admitted for the record.

(State's Exhibit No. 204, 204-A admitted)

DIRECT EXAMINATION CONTINUES

BY MS. RAY:

Q. Now handing you what have been marked as State's

Exhibits 209 and 209-A. What are these items?

A. This is a paper bag surrounding a cardboard box,

containing item SFR-10, a doorknob assembly from

evidence marker number 89, that is the master bedroom

closet door, collected March 21st of 2011.

Q. And have you looked for and found your markings

on State's Exhibits 209 and 209-A?

A. Yes, I have.

Q. And are there markings from other people?

A. Yes, there are.

Q. Other than the markings from other people, are

State's Exhibits 209 and 209-A in the same condition as

when you packaged them?

A. Yes, they are.

MS. RAY: Your Honor, I offer State's

Exhibit No. 209 for all purposes, 209-A for purposes of

the record only.

VOIR DIRE EXAMINATION

BY MS. KEENE:

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STATE v. THOMAS OLIVAS 61

Q. You've just shown me your initials on 205 -- or

209, the actual doorknob part of the door?

A. Yes, ma'am.

Q. You've put that inside of 209, the paper bag?

A. Yes, I did.

Q. And then you put your initials, that you're just

now showing me, on the paper bag, as well?

A. Yes, ma'am.

Q. And then you placed those into 209, box?

A. The box is 209-A, but yes, it went in the bag of

209 and box of 209-A.

Q. And then you wrapped the box?

A. Yes. I tried to wrap all the boxes in plain

brown paper so not to confuse the matter since they had

writing on them.

Q. Okay. And then you also have your initials, and

I can see actually see it, as I stand here, your

initials on 209-A; is that correct?

A. Yes, ma'am.

Q. Okay.

MS. KEENE: I have no objection, Judge, to

209 for all purposes and A for purposes of the record.

THE COURT: State's 209, composite exhibit

as described, is admitted for all purposes and 209-A is

admitted for the record only.

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STATE v. THOMAS OLIVAS 62

(State's Exhibit No. 209, 209-A admitted)

DIRECT EXAMINATION CONTINUES

BY MS. RAY:

Q. Now handing you -- I'm now handing you State's

Exhibits 206 and 206-A. What are these items?

A. It is a cardboard box wrapped in brown paper,

containing SFR-7, the doorknob assembly from evidence

marker number six, that's going to be the master bedroom

door, collected March 21st, 2011.

Q. And have you had an opportunity to look for and

find your markings on State's Exhibit 206 and 206-A?

A. Yes, I have.

Q. And are there markings from other people?

A. Yes, there are.

Q. Other than the markings from other people, are

State's Exhibit 206 and 206-A in the same condition they

were when you packaged them?

A. Yes, they are.

MS. RAY: Your Honor, I offer State's

Exhibit 206 for all purposes and 206-A for the record.

VOIR DIRE EXAMINATION

BY MS. KEENE:

Q. And I can see your initials from here on 206,

which is the door?

A. Yes, ma'am.

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STATE v. THOMAS OLIVAS 63

Q. And it's -- doorknob?

A. Yes, ma'am.

Q. And those are put inside of the 206, which is the

package, which I also see your initials on?

A. Yes, ma'am.

Q. And so you put 206 in 206-A; is that correct?

A. Yes, ma'am.

Q. Which I also see your initials on it. Thank you,

ma'am.

MS. KEENE: Judge, we have no objection to

206 for all purposes and 206-A for purposes of the

record.

THE COURT: All right. State's 206,

packaging and contents, admitted for all purposes and

206-A for the record only.

(State's Exhibit No. 206 and 206-A admitted)

DIRECT EXAMINATION CONTINUES

BY MS. RAY:

Q. Now handing you State's Exhibit 207 and 207-A.

What are these items?

A. It is another cardboard box wrapped in brown

paper, containing items SFR-29, doorknob assembly,

evidence marker number 28, closet door east of the front

door. It's going to be in our kitchen area. March

21st, 2011, date collected.

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STATE v. THOMAS OLIVAS 64

Q. And have you had an opportunity to look for and

find your markings on these exhibits?

A. Yes, I have.

Q. And do you see markings belonging to other

people?

A. Yes, I do.

Q. Other than those other -- those additional

markings, are State's Exhibits 207 and 207-A in the same

condition they were when you packaged them?

A. Yes, they are.

MS. RAY: Your Honor, I offer State's

Exhibit 207 for all purposes and 207-A for purposes of

the record only.

VOIR DIRE EXAMINATION

BY MS. KEENE:

Q. So you've just shown me basically on the --

basically the butt of where it was cut out of door your

initials "SR"?

A. Yes, ma'am.

Q. And what is the doorknob assembly that you put

inside of a bag which has now been labeled 207?

A. Yes, ma'am.

Q. And so your initials, I see them right there.

You're showing those to me. And then you placed 207,

which is the bag and the doorknob, in 207-A. And you've

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STATE v. THOMAS OLIVAS 65

shown me your initials on that?

A. Yes.

MS. KEENE: Judge, I have no objection to

207 for all purposes and 207-A for purposes of the

record.

THE COURT: All right. State's 207, as

described in the record, packaging, contents, admitted;

207-A, admitted for the record only.

(State's Exhibit No. 207 and 207-A admitted)

MS. RAY: Your Honor, may the witness stand

to see this next -- this next exhibit?

THE COURT: Sure.

DIRECT EXAMINATION CONTINUES

BY MS. RAY:

Q. I'm showing you what has been marked as State's

Exhibit 208 and 208-A. What are these items?

A. Large cardboard box with a good deal of brown

wrapping paper around it, containing SFR-27. It's a

dead bolt and doorknob assembly front door of the

apartment. It was evidence marker 26 on scene. And

that was collected March 21st of 2011.

Q. And did you find your markings on these exhibits?

A. Yes, I did.

Q. And do you see markings belonging to other

people?

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STATE v. THOMAS OLIVAS 66

A. Yes, I do.

Q. Other than those additional markings, are these

exhibits in the same condition they were when you

packaged them?

A. Yes, they are.

MS. RAY: Your Honor, I offer State's

Exhibit No. 208 for all purposes and 208-A for purposes

of the record only.

VOIR DIRE EXAMINATION

BY MS. KEENE:

Q. And you have shown in 208 where your markings are

actually on the door?

A. Yes, ma'am.

Q. And where your markings are actually on the

packaging surrounding the door?

A. Yes, ma'am.

Q. This is the front door, correct?

A. Yes, ma'am.

Q. And then your markings on 208-A?

A. That's the original packaging.

Q. So 208 was originally packaged with a lot of

different bags?

A. It was packaged in the same format as you see

here. It's just these bags got very dirty and very

compromised. So when I got into the lab, I went ahead

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STATE v. THOMAS OLIVAS 67

and repackaged it. And by "compromised" I just mean

crumpled and...

Q. I got it. So basically you packaged it twice?

A. Yes, I did.

Q. And you kept the packaging that you did the first

time?

A. Correct, for trace evidence, if there was any

need for that.

Q. Okay. And then -- so when you repackaged it,

that's what we're looking at in 208?

A. Yes, ma'am.

Q. Okay. And then I think the only thing is the

box. And you've just shown me your -- I can't see

that -- okay. Here it is -- your initials on the box on

both sides.

MS. KEENE: Judge, I have no objection to

208 for all purposes and 208 for purposes -- 208-A and

the multiple bags containing it for purposes of the

record.

THE COURT: State's 208 --

MS. KEENE: That's okay. She did not hear

me. I don't have objections to 208-A for purposes of

the record, which also contains the box as well as

numerous bags.

THE COURT: All right. State's 208-A,

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STATE v. THOMAS OLIVAS 68

described in the record as a box containing various

bags, admitted for the record only; 208, which is a

packaging containing what's described in the record as a

front door dead bolt assembly and et cetera, the

composite exhibit, admitted as offered.

(State's Exhibit No. 208 and 208-A admitted)

THE COURT: Let's take a moment and see if

Tamla has one more thing she wants to do before our

stretch break.

MS. RAY: It's the last one.

THE COURT: Oh, okay. Then are y'all all

right?

SEVERAL JURY MEMBERS: Yes.

THE COURT: I did notice that you -- I can't

see in the back of the UPS truck and I didn't realize

you had another box down there.

You may carry on.

MS. RAY: Thank you.

DIRECT EXAMINATION CONTINUES

BY MS. RAY:

Q. Okay. I'm now showing you what has been marked

as State's Exhibit 202, 202-A and 202-B.

(Pause in proceedings)

THE COURT: Do you need a short recess?

Q. (BY MS. RAY) Okay. State's 202, 202-A, 202-B,

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STATE v. THOMAS OLIVAS 69

203, and 203-B, so...

Let's take a look -- we'll start with

State's 202, 202-A and 202-B. What are these items --

what's -- what are these items?

A. It's a large cardboard box containing -- wrapped

in brown paper containing item SFR-20. It's going to be

a laptop, cables, and a thumb drive attached. These

were at evidence marker 19, on the living room floor,

collected March 21st, 2011.

Q. And have you had an opportunity to find and

confirm your initials on State's Exhibits 202, 202-A and

202-B?

A. Yes, I have.

Q. Okay. And do you see markings belonging to other

people?

A. Yes, I do.

Q. And other than those additional markers, are

State's Exhibits 202, 202-A and 202-B in the same

condition they were when you packaged them?

A. Yes, they are.

MS. RAY: Your Honor, I offer State's

Exhibits 202 for all purposes, 202-A and B for purposes

of the record only.

VOIR DIRE EXAMINATION

BY MS. KEENE

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STATE v. THOMAS OLIVAS 70

Q. And you just showed me the laptop itself,

correct?

A. Yes, ma'am.

Q. And you had put your initials on the tag that's

in the back of the laptop?

A. Yes, ma'am.

Q. It's on the -- actually, on the outside of the

laptop?

A. Yes.

Q. And then that's -- you wrapped it with the white

paper that you're holding?

A. Yes, ma'am.

Q. And then you put your initials on the white

paper?

A. Yes, ma'am.

Q. And there's nothing else you wrote on there,

other than your initials?

A. No, ma'am.

THE COURT: Just for the record, what is the

sticker actually on? The evidence sticker, is it on the

paper or is it on the laptop itself?

It's on the laptop itself. All right. You

may continue.

Q. (BY MS. KEENE) State's 202 contains white paper,

as well as another brown bag. Are those --

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STATE v. THOMAS OLIVAS 71

A. This is original packaging from the scene and

this is the lab paper I photographed it on. I saved it

because a lot of debris and dirt and soot were coming

off of the laptop onto the paper and I like to preserve

that if there's any trace need for determining what

accelerant was used, if any.

Q. Okay. And I see your initials on 202-A?

A. Yes.

Q. And did 202-A come out of 202-B?

A. Yes, ma'am.

Q. And is there nothing else in 202-B?

A. There is.

Q. So 202-B, then there's a sack with a bunch of

dirt and stuff inside it?

A. It's a white piece of paper with additional dirt,

lined in the box in an attempt to keep the dirt from

coming out of the seam of the box into the property

room.

Q. Okay.

A. They get mad about that.

Q. And then I see your initials on 202-B.

MS. KEENE: So, Judge, I don't have any

objection to 202-B for purposes of the record and 202-A

for purposes of the record, and I don't have any

objection to 202 for all purposes.

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STATE v. THOMAS OLIVAS 72

THE COURT: All right. State's 202-A and B,

admitted for the record only; State's 202, admitted for

all purposes.

(State's Exhibit No. 202, 202-A, 202-B

admitted)

DIRECT EXAMINATION CONTINUES

BY MS. RAY:

Q. And, finally, I'm handing you State's

Exhibits 203, 203-A and 203-B. What are those items?

A. This is a smaller bag that was packaged along

with the laptop containing the thumb drive, the damaged

thumb drive that was attached to that laptop.

Q. And do you see your markings on those items?

A. Yes, I do.

Q. And do you see markings belonging to other

individuals?

A. Yes, I do.

Q. Other than those additional markings, are State's

Exhibits 203, 203-A and 203-B in the same condition they

were when you packaged them?

A. State's 203 was in one piece. It was broken, but

it wasn't in four pieces. Again, that's probably part

of Detective Weaver's investigation. State's 203-A

someone didn't use very much care in opening it, but it

has my seals on it, and there's no problem with 203-B.

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STATE v. THOMAS OLIVAS 73

Q. And do you see Detective Weaver's markings on

these items?

A. I don't really know what they look like. I don't

readily see, but he may put them somewhere I'm not --

no, I don't.

Q. So you see no other markings on them other than

your own?

A. Correct.

Q. And so...

MS. RAY: Your Honor, I offer State's

Exhibits 203, 203-A -- sorry -- 203 for all purposes,

203-A for the purposes of the record and 203-B for the

purposes of the record.

VOIR DIRE EXAMINATION

BY MS. KEENE:

Q. And I'm seeing your initials on 203-B, 203-A and

I saw your initials on 203.

A. Yes, ma'am.

Q. The only issue is 203-B contained 203-A?

A. Yes.

Q. And 203-A contained 203?

A. Yes.

Q. And that's how you submitted it to the lab?

A. Well, it --

Q. I mean submitted it to the property room or

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STATE v. THOMAS OLIVAS 74

wherever you submitted it to?

A. It was packaged in with the laptop.

Q. Okay. Then it was packaged in with 202-B?

A. Correct.

Q. The big box?

A. Correct.

Q. But whenever you put 203 in 203-A, 203 was not in

four pieces?

A. Correct.

Q. It was in one piece?

A. Correct.

Q. And 203-A, the box, was sealed?

A. Correct.

Q. And now it's not, clearly, because you had --

somebody had to get this out, correct?

A. Correct.

Q. But you don't know who caused it to go from one

piece to four pieces at this time?

A. Not at this time.

MS. KEENE: Judge, I'm assuming it will be

tied up. I really am. So I'm going to object -- I'm

only going to object -- I'm going to offer -- I'm going

to -- I'm not going to object provided it is tied up of

being in four pieces and the box being --

THE WITNESS: I'm sorry. May I make a

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STATE v. THOMAS OLIVAS 75

correction?

MS. KEENE: Yes.

THE WITNESS: Looking at my lab photographs,

image 195 does show that in four pieces in the lab

before I submitted it to anyone. So this image taken...

THE COURT: While she's looking, the

contents of 203 were removed. Were they in this bag at

the time?

MS. RAY: No, Your Honor. They were removed

from the --

THE COURT: Number 203.

MS. RAY: -- white box and placed into the

smaller baggie.

THE COURT: For purposes of courtroom use.

All right.

MS. RAY: Yes, Your Honor.

THE COURT: I see.

Do you agree with that?

MS. KEENE: I do agree with that, Judge.

THE COURT: All right. So 203 is a baggie

containing what the record has described as four pieces.

MS. KEENE: And, Judge, it's been my

understanding that every baggie, other than, really, the

one that the officer described, was here for purposes of

this trial, not anything the officer did.

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STATE v. THOMAS OLIVAS 76

THE COURT: All right.

MS. KEENE: If we missed a baggie along the

way.

THE COURT: All right. And, again, Ziploc

freezer bag that I know the court reporter provides,

it's easy to tell the smaller bags, not always clear

where they come from.

THE WITNESS: All right. May I explain?

Q. (BY MS. KEENE) Yes.

A. On March 23rd, 2011, the laptop and cables and

the thumb drive were released to Detective Weaver.

Photographs were taken after I received them back from

Detective Weaver. So I believe that that came back to

me from him in that condition, in the multiple pieces.

Because when I collected it on scene, it was collected

still attached to the computer and I have photographs to

document the condition it was found on scene.

MS. KEENE: I think that answers my

question. I don't have any objection to it. I think

she's tied up why it's in four pieces.

THE COURT: All right.

MS. KEENE: I don't have any objection as

offered.

THE COURT: So just to the pieces, as to

contents, if any, then you'll save those for Detective

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STATE v. THOMAS OLIVAS 77

Weaver?

MS. KEENE: Oh, absolutely.

THE COURT: Okay. Then 203 is admitted,

baggie and contents, and 203-B and A are admitted for

the record only, all State's exhibits.

(State's Exhibit No. 203, 203-A, 203-B

admitted)

THE COURT: All right. Let's take a break.

Hit the buzzer when you're ready to start back.

(Break taken, 11:15 - 11:30 a.m.)

(OPEN COURT, DEFENDANT AND JURY PRESENT)

(Witness on the stand)

THE COURT: Still your witness.

MS. RAY: Your Honor, I pass this witness.

THE COURT: Now your witness.

MS. KEENE: Thank you, Judge.

CROSS-EXAMINATION

BY MS. KEENE:

Q. It's only day two.

A. Oh, my. I don't know how you do it.

Q. I don't know how we do it, either.

Okay. I have a bunch of questions for you.

Let's start with some -- I think they're all easy, but

let's start with some real easy ones. Okay?

You and I have met before; is that correct?

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KAREN B. MARTINEZ

OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER

STATE v. THOMAS OLIVAS 78

A. Yes, ma'am.

Q. And you met with myself and Mr. Moore in regard

to this case?

A. Yes, I did.

Q. We don't have to know the date, but about what

time period did we all meet?

A. I want to say maybe four months, three, four

months ago.

Q. And we -- where did we meet?

A. We met in the laboratory at the main police

station, 620 West Division.

Q. And you went over a lot of the different evidence

with us then?

A. Yes, I did.

Q. With the detective, as well as some of the

other crime -- I think it was actually all the other

crime scene officers?

A. Yes.

Q. And other than that, you and I have not had an

opportunity to talk?

A. No, ma'am.

Q. But you were kind enough to talk to us and let us

ask questions about the evidence and the things that you

did on that day?

A. Yes, ma'am.

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KAREN B. MARTINEZ

OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER

STATE v. THOMAS OLIVAS 79

Q. And we were able, at that point, to realize that

there we had -- there was a lot of things we were

missing as far as in crime -- the diagrams that y'all

did and so you gave us all those things.

A. Yes.

Q. In fact, we all --

THE COURT: Well, y'all are feeding off of

each other and so slow it down.

Thank you.

Q. (BY MS. KEENE) We actually had a discussion,

didn't we?

A. Yes. Yes, we did.

Q. I said that is my problem, too. All right. Let

me calm down.

THE COURT: You don't have to calm down,

Counsel, you just have to slow down.

MS. KEENE: I'm trying. It requires both.

Q. (BY MS. KEENE) We -- you gave us a number of

different diagrams?

A. Yes.

Q. And -- because y'all did a lot of work out there?

A. I would like to think so, yes.

Q. I would say a significant amount of work?

A. I would also say that.

Q. It was a difficult crime scene?

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KAREN B. MARTINEZ

OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER

STATE v. THOMAS OLIVAS 80

A. Yes.

Q. It was a crime scene that was on a horrific

crime?

A. Yes.

Q. And it deserved all the work that you gave it?

A. Yes.

Q. How do you continue to do your job after you see

that little baby?

A. Someone has to do this job.

Q. Okay. Do you just -- do you compartmentalize it?

A. I wouldn't say that. I feel like there's some

importance to what I do and I feel like pretending these

things don't happen isn't really an option.

Q. Okay. So you just -- you can -- can you see it,

though, and emotionally recognize it for what it is but

then go about your work?

A. Yes. You can't be emotional on a scene. It's

counterintuitive to what you're trying to accomplish.

Q. But it would be very difficult when -- just

seeing the picture, and you can't make it out, it's

difficult for any human being?

A. Yes.

Q. Well, we appreciate you doing the work you've

done. Okay?

A. Okay.

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KAREN B. MARTINEZ

OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER

STATE v. THOMAS OLIVAS 81

Q. I don't have a whole lot of criticism about what

you did. All right. So I just want to go through what

you did.

A. Okay.

Q. What is the big picture of a crime scene? What

is the big -- if there was one theory, what would the

theory be?

A. I'm assuming maybe we're getting at just like the

basic fundamental building blocks or forensics, or are

you talking about crime scene investigation

specifically?

Q. Investigation specifically.

A. To document and be able to recognize items of

evidence that could be important even if it -- they

don't seem important, focusing on details, consistency.

Q. Why?

A. Being consistent is important. Because if we

just haphazardly approach crime scenes, several items

could be missed, several steps could be missed. It's

important to evaluate each scene independently, but yet

follow a set of guidelines to ensure that everything

gets done that needs to be done.

Q. And you're looking for -- you're looking at

physical evidence and you're looking for physical

things?

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KAREN B. MARTINEZ

OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER

STATE v. THOMAS OLIVAS 82

A. Yes, I am.

Q. You are not talking to witnesses?

A. No.

Q. And physical items don't have motives, do they?

A. No.

Q. And they don't lie?

A. No.

Q. But, also, crime scenes can change?

A. Yes.

Q. Crime scene on March the 22nd, this crime scene

could have been very different than on March the 20th

when you went?

A. Yes.

Q. And certainly today if you were to go, it's a

different scene than it was on March the 20th?

A. I would assume, yes.

Q. So is it important for you to be -- to get

everything and to look at everything?

A. Yes. You don't get a second chance to go back

and do it again.

Q. You get one chance?

A. Yes.

Q. And is there a theory, a pervasive theory -- and

I'll give you a hint of where I'm looking -- what I'm --

where I'm going, is based in science about crime scenes,

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KAREN B. MARTINEZ

OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER

STATE v. THOMAS OLIVAS 83

such as Locard's theory?

A. Locard's principles of transference.

Q. Yes. What is -- is that kind of what crime scene

investigation is based on?

A. I would say that's a good building block for

forensics and the crime scene investigations in general.

It is a standard and a well-accepted theory, yes.

Q. And what is that theory?

A. The theory is that when two objects make contact

with each other, evidence is left on each object to

depict that contact in some fashion.

Q. So basically what the theory is, is that when any

two items connect, something will be left on each one?

A. That's the theory, yes.

Q. So let's just take the microphone you've been

talking on. As a crime scene officer would the handle

of that microphone be a place that you might be

interested in, if that particular is the setting and the

scene, for you to maybe want to get DNA evidence?

A. Yes. It looks conducive to that.

Q. And like what about it would look conducive?

A. Actually, I would focus more on the mesh of the

microphone itself, because that's what someone is going

to be talking into, breathing into, possibly spitting

on, and it's hit me in the face a couple times as I've

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KAREN B. MARTINEZ

OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER

STATE v. THOMAS OLIVAS 84

been sitting here. I would focus mainly on latent print

evidence on the actual grip of the microphone itself.

If I swab that for DNA, I will remove -- effectively

remove latent print evidence, as opposed to protecting

it.

Q. Okay. So -- and you've actually given a lot of

different theories, or principles, that happen with

crime scene just in your talking. Whenever you talked

into the microphone, you could transfer DNA even though

your mouth never touched the microphone?

A. Yes. Your breath is wet, contains saliva.

Again, just the fact that it is in such close proximity,

for this particular microphone especially, I would think

that the better option would be possibly to swab maybe

any of the textured areas, like the switch. For DNA,

since the surface area is too small for latent print

evidence to be effective there. But I would preserve

the barrel for actually latent print and latent palm

print evidence and swab this portion for DNA.

Q. And so when you're talking about the switch, you

know that a finger would touch the switch. Or at least

in theory, we all would think a finger is what is being

used to touch a switch and turn it on?

A. Correct.

Q. And so if that finger was used and touched the

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KAREN B. MARTINEZ

OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER

STATE v. THOMAS OLIVAS 85

switch to turn on, it is certainly quite possible that

under Locard's theory you could swab it and find that

transfer?

A. Yes.

Q. On the -- I don't know what you would call it,

the stem or the handle of the microphone, you would look

for fingerprints and certainly fingerprints first?

A. Correct.

Q. So you've got DNA and you've also got

fingerprints?

A. Yes.

Q. And fingerprints are not likely to be left on the

end of that microphone, are they?

A. They may be left, they would not be a comparable

quality because of the surface area, or what we call

substrate. The same goes for this metallic rimming of

the cord. It's very segmented. It's very broken.

Leaving a latent print on this and collecting it would

cause the print to be so broken as to probably render it

unindividualizeable.

Q. So what you want is a solid surface?

A. Preferably. I love them, yes.

Q. Right. A glass is like perfect?

A. Oh, yes.

Q. Because -- and we all know because we've had cars

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KAREN B. MARTINEZ

OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER

STATE v. THOMAS OLIVAS 86

and see fingerprints all over the outside of a window of

a car?

A. It's nice, yes.

Q. And so that's where you're leaving your full

fingerprint or good partials where you can connect them

to another person?

A. It's one of the areas, yes.

Q. How -- as a crime scene officer, how do you take

a fingerprint off of a surface, let's say, like the

microphone?

A. We would begin with processing it using one of

many different methods. Super Glue or cyanoacrylate is

applied in order to fix the print. This allows us to do

multiple lifts to try different techniques, possibly

florescent powders, other than your standard black

powder, to get the best print that you possibly can.

But generally speaking, I would use fingerprint powder

on something like that.

Q. So there's a difference between fingerprint

powder and Super Glue?

A. Yes.

Q. What would you do with fingerprint powder?

A. You apply the powder with a fiberglass brush.

You're applying it after you've Super Glued the item.

The powder adheres to the Super Glue, the Super Glue

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KAREN B. MARTINEZ

OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER

STATE v. THOMAS OLIVAS 87

adheres to the oils deposited by your finger.

Q. So if I touch this microphone and take my hands

off, is it quite possible that I have left oils on the

microphone?

A. It's possible.

Q. It is possible that I've left enough oil for you

to be able to put Super Glue on that?

A. It's possible.

Q. Now, is this the Super Glue that's in the little

tubes that we go buy?

A. Yes, it is.

Q. And so how do you apply that Super Glue to that?

A. The Super Glue is placed in a metal tray, which

is heated. We have a chamber that we use for it. You

place the item in the chamber, you heat the glue, you

add humidity, or moisture, to the chamber and it is

actually fumed in and adheres very evenly to the surface

and to the latent print evidence.

Q. And so is that something that you would do out at

Presidents Corner, or out at the scene?

A. There are methodologies for doing it in the

field. We do sometimes use them. If it's something

that I can collect, I prefer to bring it back to the lab

where I have controlled conditions and I have a chamber

to do it in.

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KAREN B. MARTINEZ

OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER

STATE v. THOMAS OLIVAS 88

Q. And we'll go over that. But that's really why

you cut all these doorknobs out?

A. The doorknobs were cut out because I do not

possess the appropriate training or resources to process

a charred and burnt piece of metal for latent print

evidence.

Q. So it was even another step, and we'll get to

that then. Okay. Once you've looked at a

fingerprint -- so you've got the oil -- let's just

assume the fingerprint was left and there's oil. The

Super Glue would then attach to the oil of a person's

hand?

A. The oil deposited on the item.

Q. And then -- now, what would you do next?

A. You would then, using a number of different

processing methods, the one we were just talking about,

fiberglass brush and black fingerprint powder or, in

this case, dual purpose fingerprint powder which has a

gray dichromatic scheme to it. That gives me a little

bit more contrast between the black base of the

microphone and the actual latent print as it develops.

Q. And so every person has different fingerprints,

that's another theory of crime scene?

A. Yes.

Q. And so what you're looking for is enough ridges.

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KAREN B. MARTINEZ

OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER

STATE v. THOMAS OLIVAS 89

Each of our hands have hundreds of little ridges on each

finger, correct?

A. Yes.

Q. And each of those ridges form a different

pattern?

A. Yes.

Q. And each of us -- all of us have different

patterns on our fingers?

A. Yes.

Q. And so you are looking for enough of that pattern

to be there such that could you compare it to a known

person and know whether or not that's their fingerprint?

A. Correct.

Q. And how -- do you have to have the full perfect

fingerprint in order to make a "gotcha" or that -- a

match?

A. No. In fact, finding a full fingerprint is

almost impossible. Even rolled fingerprints are still

partial. They don't go from the edge of the friction

ridge skin to the opposite edge of the friction ridge

skin, in most cases.

Q. So how many points -- do you know how many points

it takes to say a person's fingerprint matches?

A. There is no standard for the number of points

that are used to make a fingerprint match. It differs.

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KAREN B. MARTINEZ

OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER

STATE v. THOMAS OLIVAS 90

Some agencies do put standards in place so that they

know that every identification that they do make meets

at least a minimum standard. The Arlington Police

Department uses eight points, as --

Q. So eight --

A. -- you call them points.

Q. I'm sorry.

A. As you called them, point.

Q. What do you call them?

A. Galton details.

Q. Details.

A. Or minutiae.

Q. Or minutiae. Okay. So that would be basically

here's a little point on this fingerprint and here's a

little point, or minutiae, on this known sample and we

can say that looks identical?

A. Not only that it looks identical, but that it's

in the same location as it -- in both prints and same

formation in both prints. You can even go to what's

called third-level detail. What you're discussing now

is second-level detail.

Q. And so basically that's how you take -- that's

why you're looking for fingerprints, is so you can -- if

you have a known suspect or somebody you want to compare

to, you can use their fingerprints and look at a

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KAREN B. MARTINEZ

OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER

STATE v. THOMAS OLIVAS 91

fingerprint that was left at a crime scene?

A. Yes.

Q. And can you also get DNA from fingerprints?

A. Yes.

Q. How do you do that?

A. The oils that actually make up the fingerprint do

contain DNA. You are leaving a DNA deposit when you

leave a fingerprint.

Q. Are there times when you would leave your oils

and not leave a fingerprint?

A. Yes. There can be times that you will deposit

oil from nonfriction ridge skin and not leave a print.

And I should clarify, when I say a fingerprint, I'm

talking about latent fingerprint evidence, not patent

fingerprint evidence.

Q. What's the difference?

A. A latent fingerprint is one that you leave by

depositing oils from your finger onto a surface. A

patent print is one that you leave by having something

on your finger and then depositing it. So you're not

actually leaving your oil. If you had paint on your

hand, for example.

And then the third type is a plastic print,

which, the best description I can give you is like Silly

Putty. If you've ever played with that and you've seen

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KAREN B. MARTINEZ

OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER

STATE v. THOMAS OLIVAS 92

your print left in the Silly Putty, it's actually a

mirror image of what your actual fingerprint is because

you are depositing it into a substance that is pliable.

Q. So that's -- that may or may not leave DNA, but

certainly the oils have a whole lot better chance of

leaving DNA than the other two?

A. Correct.

Q. And so when you arrive at -- and let's do

Presidents Corner. When you arrive at Presidents

Corner, in your head what are you thinking, I'm going to

be collecting and looking for what?

A. It's tricky. You try to walk through your scene

without any preconceived notions. What you don't want

is someone telling you exactly what to look for, because

then you may miss something that they didn't list out.

So that's part of the difference between being a crime

scene investigator and being a crime scene technician.

Technicians are told by their detectives what to pick up

and they basically document it and put it in a bag.

Crime scene investigator tries to use their

training and experience, their knowledge of forensic

techniques available and collect things that they might

think that could be useful or -- at some point. So I

was looking for any type of evidence regarding the type

of wounds I saw on Ms. Gandy, any conducive surfaces for

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KAREN B. MARTINEZ

OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER

STATE v. THOMAS OLIVAS 93

fingerprinting, any paperwork and electronics. A lot of

those are useful in the investigation process.

Q. And you're looking for things you might collect

that you could get DNA off of?

A. In theory, yes. With arson scenes, fire is not a

friend of DNA. It's not a friend of Locard, either.

Q. Right. Exactly. In fact, fire can -- well, this

scene, you don't have to be a CSI person to know fire

can destroy a lot more than DNA?

A. Yes.

Q. I mean, it destroys paint and carpet and all

sorts of things, correct?

A. Yes.

Q. And when the firemen come in and they're coming

in to put out the fire, they're also destroying a crime

scene?

A. Yes.

Q. They got to do what they got to do. Everybody

gets that. But the reality is, when you looked

at Presidents Corner, you can't say with certainty that

there was a fight in there, can you?

A. I can tell that there was someone bleeding in

there, yes.

Q. But there's over -- okay. Actually, that was

probably a bad question.

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KAREN B. MARTINEZ

OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER

STATE v. THOMAS OLIVAS 94

There's overturned furniture in the living

room?

A. Yes.

Q. You don't know if that was caused during this

crime or if that was caused by the firemen?

A. Correct.

Q. And we're going to go over some additional

pictures and some of the additional things that you

collected beyond the things in the courtroom, but things

such as Mechelle's bed was cockeyed or was off -- it

wasn't off the springs, but it was turned?

A. Yes.

Q. That could -- if there weren't firemen in that

house, that would be a pretty big clue of something as a

crime scene officer?

A. Yes, it can be.

Q. It would certainly be something that you would

document, her bed is significantly tilted on it's box

springs?

A. Yes.

Q. Not in a way that a normal person would sleep on

their bed?

A. Correct.

Q. And that would make you think, well, something

must have happened in the bedroom, possibly?

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KAREN B. MARTINEZ

OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER

STATE v. THOMAS OLIVAS 95

A. It's a possibility, yes.

Q. It's certainly something, as a good crime scene

officer, that you would document and take pictures of?

A. Yes. I would search under the mattress.

Q. And in this case you documented it and took

pictures of it, even knowing that there were firemen in

there?

A. Yes.

Q. Because firemen could have been the folks who

were breaking out windows and doing what they need to do

to cause that whole mattress to tilt?

A. Yes.

Q. And so what could have a real appearance of being

very significant evidence turns out not to be?

A. Yes.

Q. Because we just don't know --

A. Correct.

Q. -- correct?

And so when you arrive at Presidents Corner

and you know you're entering into a fire scene, I would

assume you know from right at that point this is a tough

one?

A. Yes.

Q. Because it's going to be nasty, dirty, stinky,

full of water, and probably still has some heat coming

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KAREN B. MARTINEZ

OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER

STATE v. THOMAS OLIVAS 96

off of it, doesn't it?

A. It was warm in there, yes.

Q. Okay. And so there's also just certain things

that you may want to collect that are still dealing with

what just happened to them, items?

A. Many of them were wet, yes.

Q. That's why you had to contact the different

people to find out how to preserve that best?

A. Correct.

Q. Whenever you first arrived at Presidents Corner,

at this apartment complex, what time was that?

A. It was -- may I refer to my report?

Q. Absolutely.

A. I believe 2342.

Q. 2342. So that's basically 11:42, is that

correct, before midnight?

A. Yes, ma'am.

Q. And if I show you a large diagram, can you give

us an idea -- well, let me back up.

Had there been a perimeter set around this

crime scene by the time you got there?

A. Yes. There were several patrol vehicles and

crime scene barrier tape in place.

Q. Explain to the jurors what that is.

A. Crime scene barrier tape is that yellow police

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STATE v. THOMAS OLIVAS 97

tape, I think everyone's seen, you know, photographs or

pictures or TV. We actually do use yellow barrier tape.

And it is set up to keep individuals who are not

relevant to the investigation out of the crime scene.

If you cross the barrier tape, you are required to sign

in on what is called a crime scene access log so that we

have a record of who entered and who left and the times

in which they did that.

Q. And so someone would basically -- a police

officer would actually be in charge of a crime scene

log?

A. Yes.

Q. Where they would check anybody that came in, they

would check their name and their time that they came in

and check them when they left?

A. Yes.

Q. And so that if the other people, let's say they

live two doors down, they're not on fire, but if that

perimeter's been set, they can't go home?

A. In most cases. A lot of times if the

investigation has been moved indoors, they may be

escorted into their residence by an officer, but they

are not allowed to just come and go, no.

Q. Whenever you arrived at Presidents Corner, the

apartments, how big was this perimeter when you arrived?

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STATE v. THOMAS OLIVAS 98

A. It encompassed most of the paved parking area

outside of the corner of that building.

Q. If I -- if we go on the big -- you know what the

big diagram is, that you've been looking at?

A. Yes.

Q. Would that help you to show the jurors kind of

the idea where the big perimeter was?

A. Yes, it might.

MS. KEENE: May I approach her with the

aerial?

THE COURT: Yep.

Q. (BY MS. KEENE) Let me show you what has been

marked as State's Exhibit No. 2 and ask you if this is

the -- in this aerial can you -- if we put it on a

board, can you use this to help us understand where the

perimeter was set up? We can put it over here so they

can all see it. But would this --

A. Can I get my bearings as we're talking --

Q. Yes.

A. -- about this apartment building here in this

corner?

Q. Yes.

A. Okay.

Q. There's been testimony that the white truck is

basically the marker, which is why we're about to go put

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KAREN B. MARTINEZ

OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER

STATE v. THOMAS OLIVAS 99

it on a big --

A. Yeah. Let's do that.

(Pause in proceedings)

MS. KEENE: Judge, may she step down to show

them --

THE COURT: Yes.

MS. KEENE: -- this on the board?

THE COURT: Just don't block her off from

the court reporter, which means you might want to scoot

that back just a hair --

MS. KEENE: Okay.

THE COURT: -- to leave a window for Karen

to be able to see her face.

MS. KEENE: Thank you.

(Pause in proceedings)

MS. KEENE: Okay. We're both going to face

her. So I'm going to be talking I guess to your back.

THE COURT: Or why don't you put her beside

you.

(Pause in proceedings)

Q. (BY MS. KEENE) All right. Do you have your

bearings?

A. I do. The apartment in question is going to be

here.

Q. And here is the -- basically the corner of that

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KAREN B. MARTINEZ

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STATE v. THOMAS OLIVAS 100

building?

A. Yes, I'm sorry. The -- I'm assuming this is

north, so we're talking about the western corner of the

apartment complex, southern end of Building 2216.

Q. And where was the perimeter, where was base --

well, when you arrived, where were people not allowed to

go?

A. A perimeter was set up that spanned this area,

cutting off functionality to all these parking spaces.

It came down -- and a lot of the fire trucks and police

vehicles were in this area here, as it was a wider kind

of area for them to maneuver their large trucks and

such. So this -- roughly this quadrant.

Q. And did they actually mark it off with the yellow

tape?

A. Yes, as best that they could. They did use

vehicles in some cases. Because as you can see, there's

not a lot to tie it to, and it is flexible tape.

Q. And then, since we've got this up there, give the

jurors an idea just in a big picture, and we'll go over

it specifically, where you focused in on your crime

scene investigation. Because I know it went beyond the

apartment, correct?

A. It did. Obviously the apartment. Ms. Gandy, who

was in the parking lot outside of the apartment. This

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KAREN B. MARTINEZ

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STATE v. THOMAS OLIVAS 101

Dumpster area here, I did search that for any potential

evidence, and we searched the wooded area back behind

Building 2216.

Q. And back behind in that wooded area, that is not

flat?

A. No.

Q. In fact, that is, if you recall, if you were to

walk out of -- and we'll going through it more in

details. But basically, the big picture, if you were to

walk out of Ms. Gandy's apartment in the back, you're

going to face a fence; is that correct?

A. Yes.

Q. And then immediately behind that fence it becomes

a ravine?

A. Yes. It's hilly and I fell down it once and

there is a -- it's very dense. It's not easily

traversed.

Q. About how -- like what are we talking about, you

fell down it?

A. Dramatic. It was maybe two and a half to three

feet.

Q. That you fell?

A. Yeah.

Q. Okay. But it's a much deeper ravine than two and

a half to three feet?

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STATE v. THOMAS OLIVAS 102

A. Is it?

Q. Yes.

A. Well, I was kind of sliding haphazardly and

grasping for branches.

Q. All right. This is -- and, basically, the point

is, this is not an easy area -- if I wanted to sneak up

and jump over a fence, this is not an easy area to do

that with?

A. I don't recall it being easy, no.

Q. Okay.

A. The search, no.

Q. If you're at -- being out there and having walked

around, that would not be the point of entry that you

would choose?

A. This is three years ago, but I remembered

specifically thinking it was difficult to traverse that

area.

Q. Okay. And so you -- when did you search that

area?

A. That was the final thing we did before we cleared

the scene, because we were using the advantage of

daylight at that time.

Q. So that was the 22nd?

A. That was the 21st.

Q. I mean 21st. I'm sorry. During the day?

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KAREN B. MARTINEZ

OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER

STATE v. THOMAS OLIVAS 103

A. It was approximately, if I had to guess, around

noon.

Q. And had that area been secured?

A. There was no barrier tape used back in that area,

no.

Q. Because it would just be barrier tape on a ravine

really?

A. I can't even think how you might even accomplish

it.

Q. Right. Exactly. It does, in theory, make sense,

but in reality would be silly to put tape on a 20-foot

drop-off?

A. Yes. Twenty feet?

Q. Uh-huh. Pretty deep, ten, maybe I'm wrong with

the numbers, but deep. But anyway...

About how long did y'all look back in that

area?

A. This is going from memory, I don't have specific

times, but I would estimate about 45 minutes to an hour.

Q. And did y'all find anything of evidentiary value

back in that area?

A. I did find a library card belonging to Ms. Gandy

outside of the fenced area where all of the debris and

things from the apartment had been left. The library

card was a significant distance away from that, which

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KAREN B. MARTINEZ

OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER

STATE v. THOMAS OLIVAS 104

lent it a little bit more evidentiary weight because it

wasn't part of the -- otherwise, I wouldn't have really

found it odd to see a library card in a pile of debris.

Q. Okay. And we'll go over that as we go through it

step by step.

So you found in addition -- you found her

library card away from her apartment?

A. Yes.

Q. And you collected that?

A. Yes.

Q. And made a notation that you found that?

A. Yes.

Q. And that's something you discovered during the

daylight hours?

A. Yes, as well as set of keys on a lanyard that

were in the Dumpster.

Q. Okay. Well, since we're here, do -- can you use

this to show us the general area where the library card

was found?

A. Can I look at my report?

Q. Absolutely.

A. I have it listed as the south corner of the

building east of the -- okay. The south corner of the

building, east of the fence line, along the drainage

ditch and culvert.

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KAREN B. MARTINEZ

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STATE v. THOMAS OLIVAS 105

Q. So what does "east" mean, on the inside of the

fence or outside of the fence?

A. That's a good point.

Q. I'm sorry.

A. That would be west of the fence line. Wouldn't

it? Let's see...

Q. That's all right.

A. Let me look at my photographs instead, just to

double-check. I do have it listed as east. So --

Q. The --

A. -- I have to say east of the fence line.

Q. Well, and what we'll do is over the lunch break,

you can look at some other pictures and see if that

will -- knowing some of the things, see if you can

identify it further.

A. Okay.

Q. You've got a lot of evidence you have to keep in

your head so I'm not going to bug you about that. Okay?

A. Okay.

Q. Basically you found her library card outside in

the backyard ara.

A. And it was along the culvert and drainage path.

The culvert was on the west side of the fence line.

Q. Okay.

A. Which, it does --

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KAREN B. MARTINEZ

OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER

STATE v. THOMAS OLIVAS 106

Q. Well, we'll get it perfect, okay, when you look

at your pictures. All right?

A. All right.

Q. You also stated outside, what else? You just

talked about keys on a landing?

A. Lanyard.

Q. Lanyard.

A. Right. It was one of those long -- it was -- the

keys were located in the Dumpster, which is in decently

close proximity to the apartment. Dumpsters are

somewhere that you search normally as part of any crime

scene investigation, because people throw evidence away

more often than you think. The keys, obviously, no one

goes about throwing their keys away intentionally, and I

collected it because it was something I didn't expect to

see in the Dumpster. And I did take photographs and

notate where that was in there.

I used the keys to attempt to disengage the

dead bolt of Ms. Gandy's apartment. It did not work.

It was -- it fit and it was similar, but it did not

disengage her lock.

Q. So you found -- and basically a -- I don't see

anybody in the courtroom that has one. But basically

it's a -- what is a lanyard?

A. A lanyard is the thing that goes around your

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KAREN B. MARTINEZ

OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER

STATE v. THOMAS OLIVAS 107

neck. It's like one of those -- I need to look at my

pictures of the keys. I haven't actually seen them

in --

Q. All right. Well, we'll --

A. -- three years.

Q. We'll go over that.

THE COURT: One at a time, please.

Q. (BY MS. KEENE) But it's what you call a lanyard.

That's where you found those keys?

A. I believe they were on a lanyard. But yes, they

were in the Dumpster.

Q. And, as you said, obviously, people do not throw

away their keys?

A. Not on purpose.

Q. Did it have -- a lot of times people, when they

have their keys basically on a big necklace, they'll

have their badge where they work or anything. Did it

have anything like that on it?

A. I don't recall it having any identifiable

markings that would tie it to a person.

Q. Okay. Why would you take those keys and go try

to use them in Mechelle's house?

A. Just to ensure that they didn't actually go to

her house.

Q. Was there -- did you take any significance about

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KAREN B. MARTINEZ

OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER

STATE v. THOMAS OLIVAS 108

the fact that they fit into the lock?

A. It tended to possibly indicate that it was

someone who lived in that apartment complex. The

apartment complexes generally buy mass quantities of

these dead-bolt locks and the keys are similar in

appearance. I have keys at my house that fit in both my

front door and my back door, but only one opens one and

one opens the other. So I believe it's possibly

belonging to a resident who lives in that apartment

complex, possibly.

Q. But who knows?

A. Who knows.

Q. You collected them because people don't throw

away their keys?

A. Correct.

Q. And you found it in a Dumpster?

A. Yes.

Q. Right outside a murder scene?

A. Yes.

Q. And was there anything else in the Dumpster or

outside area that you saw that was out of place to you?

A. No.

Q. That you collected?

A. No.

Q. Okay. That's the things you did the next day

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KAREN B. MARTINEZ

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STATE v. THOMAS OLIVAS 109

when it was daylight?

A. At the end of the -- it was during my initial

response. So you have to keep in mind when I say we

responded on the 20th, we did, but we were only there

for an hour on the 20th. The prime -- primarily we were

there the 21st. So this would be right before we

cleared the scene the first time.

Q. And so by the time you're searching through the

Dumpster, this area of the Dumpster was never under a

secure scene, so to speak?

A. No.

Q. In other words, there wasn't yellow tape that

included the Dumpster?

A. No.

Q. And the reality is, anybody could have put in the

keys after the homicide?

A. Oh, yes.

Q. But you're still -- you go even beyond the tape

here and then looking in Dumpsters. Was there any other

Dumpster, other than this one, that you recall looking

in?

A. No, not personally. I did have assistance during

the search from Investigator Fernandes and I do not

recall -- I don't want to speak out of school for what

he actually searched. He wasn't always right there next

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KAREN B. MARTINEZ

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STATE v. THOMAS OLIVAS 110

to me. My instruction to him was we need to search the

grounds within a reasonable distance to see if we see --

we're looking for a knife.

Q. Absolutely. You're looking for something sharp,

knife, that could have been used to killed Ms. Gandy?

A. Yes.

Q. That's the bottom line.

A. And woods are a good place to throw things like

that.

Q. And that's why you're willing to get on your

hands and knees looking for the knife back there?

A. Falling down in a hole.

Q. Exactly. Okay. I think that's all I've got

on this one. You can have a seat.

What do you got? Tell me.

A. The screwdriver that was hanging in the

build-out --

Q. Oh, yeah. Yeah.

A. -- where you said did I collect anything else

from outdoors, that would fall under that.

Q. Show them on this.

A. The build-out is along the southern wall of the

building, in the southwestern corner. And that's

where -- it was down -- it was taller than our division

here by probably about a foot. It was far too deep for

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KAREN B. MARTINEZ

OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER

STATE v. THOMAS OLIVAS 111

me to reach in to get it. I had to get one of those

plastic grippy arms to get it out.

Q. Okay. And that was outside?

A. Yes, ma'am.

Q. And you took pictures of the area, as well as I

think they saw -- at least looking down one picture of

that?

A. Yes, ma'am.

Q. Did you -- when you were out there looking or

doing any of the crime scene, did you have any

information about a suspect or a figure or a person

coming from that area right before the fire started?

A. I was not given that information on the scene,

no.

Q. Was that any information you had at any point

prior to doing any of that, of your crime scene work?

A. Several years later.

Q. Okay.

A. Two years later.

Q. Okay. That's -- do you usually get that kind of

information?

A. With a scene like this where detective look --

what's the -- Detective Stewart was looking for Asher

and doing an Amber Alert during the beginning, where we

normally have this type of conversation, it's

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KAREN B. MARTINEZ

OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER

STATE v. THOMAS OLIVAS 112

not uncommon for that information to stay with the

detective, depending on the detective. Some of them are

very interactive, others are more independent and will

come to you if they think that they have information you

might need.

Q. Okay. So it just depends?

A. Yes, ma'am.

Q. You can take nothing from it, not having known

that?

A. I like to think I processed the scene thoroughly

enough where it encompassed the potential for someone to

have handled the back door and front door. So either

way, if they had gone in or out the back door, I would

like to think that I did the best that I could to

process these areas. So...

Q. Okay. Thank you. You can have a seat.

As part of your work doing the crime scene,

did you take measurements?

A. Yes, I did.

Q. Was that something that y'all did basically as a

group, so to speak, or as a team?

A. I was assisted by CSI Tricksey.

Q. And so the crime scene officer, Tricksey, helped

you take measurements. Why do you want to take

measurements?

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KAREN B. MARTINEZ

OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER

STATE v. THOMAS OLIVAS 113

A. Measurements, doing your diagram and your sketch,

taking measurements is part of standard protocol. It is

so that if at any time someone needs to come back and

place evidence back on scene, they can do that

sufficiently.

Q. Was your diagram to scale?

A. No. They're not to scale.

Q. So you can't look at the diagram and know, well,

that's where it was, it was only -- well, even if it's

small, it was only in relation to what it was? Does

that make sense?

A. No.

Q. Well, okay. If you have a 34 and 35, you can't

decide if they're an inch distance apart and then 36 is

two inches and that's the difference? That's just --

that would be to scale.

A. Right. That's why we take the measurements and

we put them with our diagram, but the diagram itself is

not a good indication if you're trying to actually

determine the specific size.

Q. The diagram is used to kind of give us an

overview and an idea of what the apartment looked like?

A. It's demonstrative, yes.

Q. And it's an overview and a look of where the

various items were?

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KAREN B. MARTINEZ

OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER

STATE v. THOMAS OLIVAS 114

A. Yes.

Q. It's not a GPS location of those items?

A. No.

Q. But y'all -- because it's important to know the

distances, y'all did do all those measurements?

A. Yes.

Q. And you created a diagram that had all those

measurements?

A. CSI Tricksey did our diagram in this case.

Q. And is it one -- did she also do the other

diagram that we've looked at?

A. She's done all the diagrams.

MS. KEENE: Judge, may I approach the

witness?

THE COURT: You may.

Q. (BY MS. KEENE) Investigator, let me show you

what has been marked as Defendant's Exhibit No. 6. Do

you recognize that?

A. Yes, I do.

Q. What is that?

A. This is a diagram of the evidence markers removed

and the measurements in place.

Q. And would this help you to explain to the jurors

kind of the layout of this place in terms of the real

dimensions?

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KAREN B. MARTINEZ

OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER

STATE v. THOMAS OLIVAS 115

A. Yes.

Q. And --

MS. KEENE: All right. Judge, at this time

we would offer in Defense Exhibit No. 6.

MS. RAY: No objection, Your Honor.

THE COURT: Defense 6 is admitted.

(Defendant's Exhibit No. 6 admitted)

Q. (BY MS. KEENE) Investigator, let me show you

what has been marked as Defense Exhibit No. 7 and ask

you if you recognize this? Seven is a two-page

document.

A. Yes, I do.

Q. And what is Defense Exhibit No. 7?

A. This is a -- it's basically a key that Anna

Tricksey, CSI Tricksey, created that lists the actual

measurements out for each of the items of evidence.

Q. And is this something that you know to be

accurate?

A. Yes, I believe it to be accurate.

Q. And this is something that you think it would be

helpful for the jurors to understand really the exact

location of each item?

A. Depending on how they like to view things. I

would prefer -- I prefer the demonstrative aid. This is

very specific. So if they see things in numbers, this

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STATE v. THOMAS OLIVAS 116

is good for them.

Q. Okay. This could be other folks that see things

in more GPS-kind-of number things?

A. I don't know if I'd say GPS, but in feet and

inches, yeah.

Q. Okay. South and east, all those directions?

A. Yes. I am not a fan of those.

Q. Okay.

MS. KEENE: Judge, we would offer in

Defendant's Exhibit No. 7.

MS. RAY: No objection, Your Honor.

THE COURT: All right. Defense Exhibit 7 is

admitted.

(Defendant's Exhibit No. 7 admitted)

Q. (BY MS. KEENE) Investigator, let me show you

what's been marked as Defense Exhibit No. 8, 9, 10, and

11 and ask you if you recognize what those depict?

A. They appear to be an apartment complex and a

Dumpster outside of an apartment complex.

Q. Do they appear to be -- is that the -- does that

appear to be the Dumpster that you recall looking in and

finding the keys?

A. It's hard to tell from this prospective view

because I cannot see any of the numbers on the

buildings, the numbers on the apartments.

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Q. Okay. So you can't say?

A. I really can't. I apologize.

Q. It's okay. That's okay. About how far was the

Dumpster that you got the keys out of from the homicide

scene?

A. See, this is why I use measuring devices. I'm

not great at estimating. We looked at the aerial view.

We can -- I can show them again where it was.

Q. That's okay. We'll cover -- we'll figure that

out over a break.

A. Okay.

MS. KEENE: This is really a good time,

Judge, actually, because I'm going to go into some

things with the ELMO, if you want to.

THE COURT: Okay. Let's go eat. Be back at

your pickup point in an hour and 15 to 20 minutes,

depending on what time you get on the elevator and get

out, powder your nose and stuff. If you're back there

for five minutes, then an hour and 15 minutes ought to

be good. If you go straight out now, I'll give you an

hour and 20 minutes. Be at your pickup point.

Lawyers be back here in an hour and 15

minutes from the moment the jury leaves the floor and

we'll pick up at that point.

Remember your instructions. As of now, I

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think it's okay outside and everything on the radar -- I

just checked again when she walked up and I asked about

when to lunch break and I think it's all north so I

think you'll be okay.

All right. We'll be in recess for an hour

and 20 minutes.

(Jury excused from courtroom)

MR. ROUSSEAU: Judge?

THE COURT: Yes.

MR. ROUSSEAU: I want to put something on

the record real quick before --

THE COURT: Okay.

MR. ROUSSEAU: It will just take a second.

THE COURT: Not a problem. We're stuck in

here for a minute anyway.

All right.

MR. ROUSSEAU: Your Honor, this morning I

handed to the Counsel for Defense a document that is a

printout. It was -- it's a printout from a -- of what

appears to be a screenshot that was sent to me by the --

Detective Stewart yesterday, of the Arlington Police

Department, indicating a series of the telephone -- the

police calls that were made at the apartment that we've

been talking about, the scene of this crime. It appears

to be a printout of all calls made by the police to that

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address from January of 2000 up until the date of this

offense. There -- I believe there are ten entries on

there. I do not have it -- a full explanation of

every one of the incidents.

It is my understanding that it is

comprehensive, that this does indicate all of the police

calls at that address. And I have explained to the

Defense my understanding of one call in particular,

which was supposed to have been a burglary

investigation, and that was from July of 2009, and I

just got that yesterday. I just wanted to make it clear

that I have turned it over this morning.

THE COURT: Can I see what you're kind of

describing in the record --

MR. ROUSSEAU: I have it, Your Honor. I'd

just like to -- if you don't mind me mark -- writing in

pen, I can mark it as a Court's exhibit.

THE COURT: Oh, well, it doesn't really

matter. I want to look at it. It may or may not be

necessary to do that.

I just want to be clear, "screenshot" means

there's a computer entry and it's a print screen of

what's an electronic record and you have a hard copy

that you gave to Defense Counsel. Is that what you mean

by "screenshot", Kevin?

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MR. ROUSSEAU: That's my understanding.

That's what it looks like to me, Your Honor.

THE COURT: Okay.

MR. ROUSSEAU: And that's how it was sent to

me.

THE COURT: Yeah. It says -- it has http

bar at the top. That's what it looks like to me, as

well. It's labeled "calls for service". So any call

for service to 2216 Presidents Corner is listed here

beginning 1/15 of 2000, ending 3/20 of 2011. One --

yeah. You can see "death" is the final one on the last

day. Investigation, 9-1-1 calls, unexplained

disturbance, unexplained R theft, unexplained -- those

are back prior to 2005 -- or 2005 and prior. MIS

warrant in 2007. Investigation 2009.

But you don't have specific reports or

details. These are the just the calls of service which

appears in a list of call numbers that may or may not

still be available.

MR. ROUSSEAU: That's all I have right now,

Your Honor.

THE COURT: Gotcha.

Mr. Moore, you got all this?

MS. KEENE: We do.

THE COURT: All right.

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MR. ROUSSEAU: I'll attach it to the

electronic file to get it open, but my computer system

was messed up this morning and I'm not all that quick

about that sort of thing anyway, so I wanted to give

them a hard copy this morning.

THE COURT: That's fine. And I don't see

any need of putting that in the record if you have a

copy.

Do you see any need, other than what's in

the record, of putting anything else in the record at

this time?

MR. MOORE: No, Judge, I don't.

THE COURT: All right. Then the

disclosure's on record. You have the original copy.

We're good.

We're in recess again.

(Lunch break taken, 12:25 - 1:45 p.m.)

(OPEN COURT, DEFENDANT PRESENT, NO JURY)

THE COURT: State your full, legal name for

the court reporter, please, sir.

THE WITNESS: Gabriel Salinas, Jr.

THE COURT: I need you to face me and raise

your right hand, please, sir.

(One witness sworn)

THE COURT: Certain rules that apply to any

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STATE v. THOMAS OLIVAS 122

witness in a criminal trial. The first rule is you may

not be present in the courtroom to listen to what other

witnesses say when they testify. For the same reason,

you're not allowed to discuss anything you know about

the facts and circumstances or people involved in this

trial with any other person who may be called as a

witness. You're not allowed to, quote, discuss your

testimony with other witnesses. You can talk about the

weather, the Rangers, whatever, but you cannot talk

about anything that might be asked about in the

courtroom.

You still with me?

THE WITNESS: Yes.

THE COURT: You may speak in the private

with the attorneys for either side or their

investigators at any time as long as other witnesses

can't overhear your conversations in order to prepare

for your own testimony. You must make sure you hear and

understand the question asked. If you can't hear

or don't understand, then say so. And if you do hear

and understand, answer that question, stop, and then

wait for the next question. If you keep talking, her

hands will wear out before the trial is over.

You understand?

THE WITNESS: Yes, sir.

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STATE v. THOMAS OLIVAS 123

THE COURT: If someone asks you, Do you have

a watch, if you do, say, Yes. Don't say what time it

is, don't say where you got it unless they ask you. If

they ask to explain, go for it. But don't explain

unless it's part of the question. All clear?

THE WITNESS: Yes.

THE COURT: Let's take a short recess.

(Pause in proceedings)

(Witness Fallentine takes the stand)

THE COURT: Bring in the jury.

(Jury seated in courtroom)

THE COURT: Joetta, still your witness.

MS. KEENE: Thank you, Judge.

Q. (BY MS. KEENE) Did you have a chance,

Investigator, to look up where the library card was

found?

A. Yes, I did.

Q. And do you feel comfortable now having looked at

whatever you looked at to be able to testify whether it

was inside or outside of the fence line?

A. Yes, I do.

Q. And where was it?

A. It is outside of the fence line running towards

the parking area in a cement culvert.

Q. So basically it's not back towards the ravine,

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STATE v. THOMAS OLIVAS 124

it's towards the parking lot?

A. Towards the parking lot in front of the apartment

building, yes.

MS. KEENE: Judge, may I approach the

witness?

THE COURT: Yes.

Q. (BY MS. KEENE) I'm going to show you what has

been marked as Defense Exhibit No. 12. Do you recognize

Defense Exhibit No. 12?

A. Yes, I do.

Q. And how do you recognize Defense Exhibit No. 12?

A. It is a photograph that I took. I see the

evidence marker and the evidence item in question.

Q. And what is it a picture of?

A. It is a picture of a North Richland Hills library

card.

Q. And is it a picture of the card that we've been

talking about?

A. Yes.

Q. Let me show you what has been marked as Defense

Exhibit No. 13 and ask you if you recognize that?

A. Yes, I do.

Q. And how do you recognize that?

A. It is a picture of the back of the same library

card in discussion, at evidence marker number 42.

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STATE v. THOMAS OLIVAS 125

Q. And so what you did is whenever you saw the

library card, you put the marker on, as the jurors have

seen, in the other -- as like the ones in the house?

A. Correct.

Q. And for this one, it was 42?

A. Yes, ma'am.

Q. And let me show you what's been marked as Defense

Exhibit No. 14. What is that?

A. This is a medium-range photograph of the same

library card.

Q. And what is -- what is it showing the jurors, in

a broad sense?

A. Generally speaking, crime scene photography is

done in three steps. You have a step to show the

overall location of an item of evidence. You have a

midrange photograph, so that if it's a small item you

can then make out somewhat what it is. And then you

have a close-up photograph which only deals with that

item of evidence in question.

This assists you in being able to see where

it was in the grand scheme of your crime scene.

Q. So in -- so 14, Defense Exhibit No. 14, would be

a midrange?

A. Yes.

Q. Okay. And let me show you Defense Exhibit No. 15

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STATE v. THOMAS OLIVAS 126

and ask you if you recognize that?

A. I do.

Q. And what is Defense Exhibit No. 15?

A. This would be an example of a long-range

photograph for this same item, the library card, at

evidence marker number 42.

Q. And 16 and 17, let me show you Defense Exhibit

No. 16 and 17 and see if you recognize those?

A. Yes, I do.

Q. How do you recognize those?

A. These are photographs of the same library card

without the evidence markers in place. That is also

part of the photography process, is to make sure that

you get photographs without adding or subtracting

anything. And so these would have been the first

photographs I took before the marker was in place.

Q. So you can write in a report that something like

a card is found east of a fence, but two years,

three years later that can be confusing even to a smart

young lady or person like yourself?

A. Yes.

Q. And so you have to go back and look at pictures

sometimes?

A. I'm glad I have them, yes.

Q. Right. So you're glad you have the pictures?

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STATE v. THOMAS OLIVAS 127

A. Yes.

Q. So you were able to look at the pictures so you

don't have to just guess where was this library card

found. You actually took pictures and we can show the

jurors?

A. Yes, we can't guess.

Q. We cannot guess.

But these pictures will certainly explain to

the jurors where you found this library card?

A. Yes.

MS. KEENE: Your Honor, we would offer in

Defense Exhibit No. 12 through 17.

THE COURT: Defense 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17?

MS. KEENE: Yes, sir.

THE COURT: Got it.

MS. RAY: No objection, Your Honor.

THE COURT: All right. Exhibits 12, 13, 14,

15, 16, 17 each admitted.

(Defendant's Exhibit No. 12 - 17 admitted)

MS. KEENE: Thank you, Judge.

Permission to publish by the projector,

ELMO?

THE COURT: You may do that.

While you're setting it up, we talk about

"ELMO" through this trial. For purposes of the trial

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STATE v. THOMAS OLIVAS 128

record, it's not little pink Sesame Street character.

It's a high-tech operated overhead projector that can

magnify and zoom. And it is for use by lawyers in

court. So any time the word "ELMO" appears, it means

whatever is being displayed is being put on a

larger-than-the-American-flag-size screen and it's

viewed by all participants in the trial and the jury.

And that's the only time I intend to state

that.

State, agree with that?

MR. ROUSSEAU: Yes, Your Honor.

MS. RAY: Yes, Your Honor.

THE COURT: Defense agree with that?

MS. KEENE: We do, Judge.

THE COURT: All right. You may proceed.

Q. (BY MS. KEENE) We're now looking at Defense

Exhibit No. 12 and you recognize what this is?

A. Yes.

Q. And is this the library card we've been talking

about?

A. Yes.

Q. And would this be called the close-up?

A. Yes.

Q. And that would be one side?

A. Correct.

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STATE v. THOMAS OLIVAS 129

Q. All right. And then Defense Exhibit No. 13 would

be the other side?

A. Yes.

Q. And then whose name is on there?

A. It appears to be Mechelle Gandy.

Q. At the time -- this is during the day, correct?

A. Correct.

Q. By this time you know the name of the person that

had been killed?

A. Certainly.

Q. Okay. So you know that this is significant?

A. I believe it -- it could be, yes.

Q. All right. And we'll get to that. Fourteen,

this is a midrange?

A. Yes.

Q. Now, we'll get that in the bigger one. All

right. Here's 15. Defense Exhibit 15.

And what is Defense Exhibit No. 15 showing

the jurors?

A. This is a farther distance away from evidence

marker 42. It is beginning to show you what the item's

location is and bearing to the crime scene by showing

you other items around the evidence item.

Q. And so -- do you have a pointer up there?

A. Yes.

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Q. Where is the -- actually, let's start here.

Where is the -- what is this? Is that

anything you did, these markings?

A. No, they're not.

Q. So the red marks were already there?

A. Yes.

Q. Where is the fence line?

A. The fence line is running up at the top left-hand

corner of this photograph.

Q. And we've got another picture that will show it a

little bit better.

Here is 16. And is that basically 15

without the marker on it?

A. Yes. Yes, it is.

Q. And that's not part of the picture, is it?

A. No. That's your pointer.

Q. I don't know what's up with that. All right. I

guess we could -- whatever -- right there is where the

library card is?

A. Yes.

Q. And then in the grand scheme of things, where it

is, 17, does that help kind of put a perspective on

where it was found in relation to Mechelle's house?

A. Yes, it does.

Q. And explain to the jurors where that is, or how

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STATE v. THOMAS OLIVAS 131

that shows that.

A. This is the outside corner of the building. The

spare bedroom would be in this -- centrally located in

the photograph here. The fence line running behind her

apartment, indicated here. The culvert is then running

toward the parking area in front of the apartment, which

is out of the range of the photograph, in the lower

right-hand quadrant.

Q. And this yellow tape right here, is that the type

of tape that we were talking about that y'all put around

the perimeter of the house --

A. Yes.

Q. -- so to secure it?

A. Yes, it is.

Q. Would that type of tape have been all out and

around in the parking lot at some point?

A. Yes, it would have.

Q. And then does it keep getting narrower and

narrower coming in?

A. As the scope of the investigation focuses in,

they will sometimes bring the barrier in closer, because

it's easier to control with less patrol vehicles.

Q. Okay. Now, this card being outside of her house

was significant enough for you to collect, correct?

A. It is not in the same location as the rest of the

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STATE v. THOMAS OLIVAS 132

debris from inside the apartment; therefore, it has to

be considered potentially significant.

Q. Because there was a lot of debris from her

apartment outside, and we're going to show pictures of

that.

A. Right.

Q. So this also could be like the bed, nothing?

A. Yes.

Q. This could also be firefighters throwing hoses

inside a house where there's debris?

A. Yes.

Q. But because this is different than a big mass of

debris, this was significant for you to take pictures,

document and actually take that card?

A. Yes.

Q. Just in case?

A. Yes.

Q. Because we can't -- we could never go back and

find that card again?

A. Correct.

Q. Where was the major amount of debris?

A. The majority of the debris was outside of the

spare bedroom window.

Q. Front yard? Backyard?

A. Backyard near the patio.

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Q. Let me show you what's been marked as Defense

Exhibit No. 18 and ask you if you recognize that?

A. Yes, I do.

Q. Would that help explain to the jurors kind of how

the layout is heading into the backyard?

A. Yes, it would.

Q. How -- who took that picture?

A. I took that picture.

Q. Let me show you Defense Exhibit No. 19. Do you

recognize 19?

A. Yes, I do.

Q. How do you recognize 19?

A. It is basically the same area, just photographed

a little closer up.

Q. So it's doing the same thing you've talked about

where you would go back and then you'd, what, take a

couple of feet, walk a couple feet and take another

pictures?

A. Actually, it's the opposite. We start from far

away and focus in on our object of interest.

Q. Okay. I think we said the same thing. We just

said it a different way.

Defense Exhibit No. 20. Do you recognize

Defense Exhibit No. 20?

A. Yes.

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STATE v. THOMAS OLIVAS 134

Q. And does Defense Exhibit 20 show where one of the

lighters was found?

A. Yes, it does.

Q. And did you take that picture?

A. Yes, I did.

Q. All right. Now, Defense Exhibit No. 21. Do you

recognize 21?

A. Yes, I do.

Q. And what is that going to help you explain to the

jurors, in 21?

A. It demonstrates the amount of debris that was

removed from both the upstairs apartment and Ms. Gandy's

apartment by Investigator Lea.

Q. And so these pictures that we're looking at right

now, we started out at dark, the 21 I just showed you is

daytime, correct?

A. Yes.

Q. And so this was the next day when you went -- or

this was that morning. Once the light turns, you're now

outside again?

A. Yes.

Q. So you took pictures when it was dark and then

you went back outside when it was light and took more

pictures?

A. Yes. It's definitely a good idea to do that.

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STATE v. THOMAS OLIVAS 135

Q. Plus your scene was actually changing, wasn't it?

A. I'm not sure I understand.

Q. Well, if Lea was throwing debris out, then that

didn't look like that when you arrived?

A. Correct.

Q. Okay. Number 22, is that -- what is that a

picture of?

A. It is another angle depicting that same debris.

Q. And would these help you to explain to the jurors

how this was set up out there in the back?

A. Yes.

Q. Was that back gate open or shut when you saw it?

A. I believe it was open. Otherwise, I would have a

photograph depicting it being shut.

Q. And all the pictures you have are of this gate

being open?

A. Correct.

Q. You have pictures of it at night being open; is

that correct?

A. I would have to check. I believe so. Yes.

Q. And you have pictures of it during the day being

open?

A. Yes.

Q. I'm going to hand you what has been marked as 23

through 26 and ask you if those would -- if you took

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STATE v. THOMAS OLIVAS 136

those pictures?

A. Yes, I did.

Q. And did you take those pictures during the day or

at night?

A. During the daytime, it appears.

Q. And what are those pictures of?

A. These are pictures showing the gate. I guess you

could call it a locking mechanism. It's just some wire.

Q. Okay. So this is an up-close -- close pictures

of what that gate looked like, what the condition of

that gate was in her backyard?

A. Yes.

Q. And you took those during the daytime?

A. Yes.

Q. But you also have a picture of the gate at

nighttime?

A. Yes, I do.

Q. And do these -- and these fairly and accurately

depict what you saw out there?

A. Yes.

Q. And then let me show you what has been marked as

27 -- and 28 has been admitted on the State's side, but

just keep -- just for me not having to dig through that

stack, if you'll look at those two again and see if you

recognize what those pictures were attempting to show

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STATE v. THOMAS OLIVAS 137

that you took?

A. Yes.

Q. Would those fairly and accurately help you

explain to the jurors where the screwdriver was that you

found out there?

A. Yes.

MS. KEENE: We would offer in 27 and 28.

MS. RAY: No objection, Your Honor.

MS. KEENE: Twenty-three through 26.

THE COURT: Through 26?

MS. KEENE: Yes.

THE COURT: Twenty-three through 26. Okay.

Continue.

MS. KEENE: And 18 through 22.

MS. RAY: No objection, Your Honor.

THE COURT: All right. Defense 22, 21, 20,

19, 18, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28 are each admitted.

(Defendant's Exhibit No. 18 - 28 admitted)

MS. KEENE: May I publish them using the

ELMO?

THE COURT. Yes, you may.

Q. (BY MS. KEENE) All right. What is Defense

Exhibit No. 22 showing the jurors?

A. This is a photograph of the debris that was

outside of the spare bedroom of the apartment.

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KAREN B. MARTINEZ

OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER

STATE v. THOMAS OLIVAS 138

Q. Where is the back door to Mechelle's house?

A. It is just above center in the photograph, off of

the patio area.

Q. And so in your diagram where it's marked "patio",

is that this little area right here?

A. Yes.

Q. And in your diagram y'all did not account for

the grass area or the fence?

A. Does not appear that CSI Tricksey included those.

Q. Okay. So basically it includes this right there.

Where is that lighter found?

A. It is on the corner of a patio table, which is

right in this location here. The lighter is on the

corner here.

Q. And then all this is what you've classified as

"debris"?

A. Correct.

Q. And right here is the window to what -- which

bedroom?

A. The spare bedroom.

Q. And so all this is what Lea -- or at least some

of it -- this is certainly what Lea has been kicking out

as he's been sifting through the room?

A. Correct.

Q. So this is the evolving crime scene, so to speak,

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OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER

STATE v. THOMAS OLIVAS 139

in the backyard?

A. Yes.

Q. Because when you first got there -- this is a

daytime picture, isn't it?

A. Yes.

Q. And when you first got there, this level of

debris was not in the backyard?

A. There was debris, but not that level.

Q. There was debris that the fire left and the

firemen left -- not the fire -- the investigator left?

A. Correct. It was from the second-floor apartment,

I believe.

Q. So up here also had fire damage and some of these

things possibly, probably not that, but some of these

other things possibly could have come from upstairs?

A. Yes.

Q. Twenty-one is basically just tilted and turning

it so that you can see the fence, is that correct, right

in here?

A. Correct.

Q. And so there was no measurements as far as how

wide this is, was there?

A. I don't believe she took measurements of that.

Q. Okay. But it's not a tiny backyard, but it's not

big?

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OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER

STATE v. THOMAS OLIVAS 140

A. No, it's not big, no.

Q. Does it go very far back this way, or is that

fence right there related to her apartment?

A. I don't recall.

Q. When you stood at this fence -- I know you

didn't -- and I've looked through your notes and I've

talked to you. I know you did not take dimensions on

how tall this fence was. But when you stood at it, was

it significantly taller than you?

A. Yes. It was at least a couple feet taller than

me.

Q. How tall are you?

A. Five-foot-five.

Q. So it's a good seven- to eight-foot fence?

A. I would say so.

Q. It's not your six-foot-tall, small fence that are

sometimes found in residential areas?

A. No.

Q. And her -- did any of the -- did any of that

fence appear to be tampered with?

A. Not tampered with. It was blackened in this area

from the fire.

Q. Did anything appear to be like it had rotted out

where somebody could have squeezed through or gotten

through?

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KAREN B. MARTINEZ

OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER

STATE v. THOMAS OLIVAS 141

A. Not to my recollection, no. It would have been

documented.

Q. Exactly. If you saw an area where you thought,

ooh, someone could easily come right through that hole,

you would have documented, taken pictures, again,

up-close, medium and back pictures, correct?

A. Yes. Yes.

Q. What is Defense Exhibit No. 20 showing the

jurors?

A. This is a photograph of the lighter that was

located on the patio table.

Q. Okay. That's the same patio table we just

described?

A. Yes.

Q. Okay. Now, going back to that fence, this is a

nighttime picture, isn't it, Number 19?

A. Yes.

Q. Is this outside of her yard looking in, so to

speak?

A. Yes. The parking area would have been to my back

as I took this photograph.

Q. So the parking area is towards the audience here,

in theory?

A. Behind me, as I'm seated, if I'm looking at the

fence from where I'm seated, that's confusing.

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KAREN B. MARTINEZ

OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER

STATE v. THOMAS OLIVAS 142

Q. It is. We'll keep going. Don't worry about it.

A. It's out of frame in this area over here.

Q. We'll resolve it. Don't worry about it.

I think you took a backup picture. But

neither here nor there, this is at nighttime. Would you

have gone and taken these pictures before you took the

ones on the inside, or how did that take place?

A. Yes. This would have been part of the

documentation of the exterior scene, which -- before I

ever made entrance into the apartment.

Q. So whenever you arrive, you -- camera is first

thing you're going to do?

A. Notes about my initial observations will be

first, but the camera is a close second, yes.

Q. And you start outside in?

A. Yes.

Q. And so basically you will have walked around the

perimeter as much as you can of her apartment and taken

pictures of what it looks like at almost midnight?

A. Yes.

Q. So this is almost midnight in the condition that

you saw it in?

A. This would have been past midnight. I arrived at

2347. I would have had to meet with the officer, take

notes. It would have been past midnight, but close to

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KAREN B. MARTINEZ

OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER

STATE v. THOMAS OLIVAS 143

it.

Q. So nighttime?

A. Yes.

Q. And one of the first things you did?

A. Yes.

Q. And this also -- you're taking pictures just to

preserve it, but, also, if that gate is open, I mean,

that potentially could be significant?

A. Yes.

Q. Or it could, again, be a fireman opening that

gate?

A. Yes.

Q. Because he ran through the inside and he needed

to get out and took off out...

A. Yes.

Q. So that's either significant or it's not,

correct?

A. Correct.

Q. Can you tell what that is? Let me show you a

close-up.

A. No. A vine or a stick perhaps, a branch.

Q. It appears to be something that has got some

sticker things on it, doesn't it?

A. A bramble. It does look like it has sharp

protrusions.

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KAREN B. MARTINEZ

OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER

STATE v. THOMAS OLIVAS 144

Q. It looks like barbed wire to me, but it's hard to

believe it would be barbed wire right there?

A. No. It -- it appears to have a tan end on one

side. In -- in this photographic I see it more clearly

than your ELMO, which indicates it might be a -- a -- a

branch or something that's stripped of bark at the end.

Q. Like briars?

A. Possibly.

Q. Are you from Texas?

A. No, ma'am.

Q. Well, they grow here. They love us.

All right. Let's see. This is during the day,

okay. And you can tell that, can't you, from this

picture?

A. Yes.

Q. Because of the sky?

A. Yes.

Q. So how come you would have come back again and

taken another really almost the same picture you took

from before?

A. A lot of times things are better visualized in

the day. Sometimes it's easier to portray what it is

that you're looking at. If I'm ever on a scene that

extends from nighttime in to daytime, I do try to take

daytime photographs just to assist in court at some

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OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER

STATE v. THOMAS OLIVAS 145

point.

Q. Now, do you see whatever was there is no longer

there?

A. Yes.

Q. But now there's this big long thing?

A. Yes.

Q. And looking at State's -- or Defense Exhibit

No. 18, can you tell what that -- if that big long thing

was in the prior exhibit or does it appear -- what does

it look like to you, if you can tell?

A. I don't know, a vine maybe. I hate to speculate.

Q. Okay. But it wasn't there at nighttime and now

it's there during the day?

A. Yes.

Q. It's long, where before, it seemed to be kind

shriveled around, or who knows?

A. I really don't know.

Q. But that's why you take pictures, isn't it?

A. Yes.

Q. All right. So this is now an up-close picture of

the back gate during the day; is that correct?

A. Yes.

Q. And now it's got this evidence during the day...

A. Crime scene barrier tape.

Q. Yes. Crime scene barrier tape. There you go.

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KAREN B. MARTINEZ

OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER

STATE v. THOMAS OLIVAS 146

A. Yes.

Q. But what is this picture showing the jurors?

A. Again, it's a daytime photograph used to depict

the gate, the condition of the gate, the debris in the

backyard of the premises.

Q. Right in here is just debris?

A. Yes.

Q. Where is this locking mechanism?

A. I really hate to call it that. It's just a wire,

but it's here.

Q. Okay. Let's get a better view of that wire. Is

State's -- is Defense Exhibit No. 25 a better view of

the wire?

A. Yes. It's a midrange photograph of the wire, as

you can see, attached here and free-hanging.

Q. And because I think you got to look at it close,

does it look like it loops around, or is that that same

thing, just probably a briar or something behind it, in

this picture, 25?

A. We're discussing, to be clear, this?

Q. Yes.

A. Yes. It's almost easily apparent as a sticker

bush, is what we call them back home. But a briar

branch.

Q. Sticker bush?

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KAREN B. MARTINEZ

OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER

STATE v. THOMAS OLIVAS 147

A. Sticker bush.

Q. Good name. Okay. So that's not part of this?

A. No, ma'am.

Q. But it kind of -- you can see it kind of looks

like that in this picture. Maybe not.

A. Well, it goes through the fence, I guess.

Q. All right. So what it is, is -- this locking

mechanism is a wire that comes down and keeps coming,

doesn't it?

A. Yes. It terminates in some sort of a loop.

Q. And then is there also a wire down in here, I

guess, that's supposed to do something?

A. Uh-huh. Yeah. I'm not really sure what, though.

Q. Okay. This is a close-up of this thing that you

said you're afraid to call a locking mechanism, and I

understand why. What is that showing, the end?

A. That's the termination, the end of it. It ends

in a loop. It was similar to a wire coat hanger.

Q. And then in Defense Exhibit No. 26?

A. This is the point along the wire where they -- it

appears they tried to make it longer by twisting them

around each other, two segments possibly. But it was

midway in between the gate and the end of it.

Q. Not a professional locking job here at all?

A. No.

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KAREN B. MARTINEZ

OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER

STATE v. THOMAS OLIVAS 148

Q. This would not make you feel safe at your house,

would it?

A. No.

Q. Okay. When you were out there, you also passed

by on the side -- so basically if you're at her gate and

now I'm walking towards the parking lot to my left,

there was this, correct?

A. Yes. If you're going from the gate to the

parking lot, that would be on your left.

Q. Did it look like that?

A. Yes.

Q. And did you -- were you able to determine if it

looked like that, like it's been looking like that?

A. I have no idea.

Q. So you don't know if the firemen did this or not?

A. I don't know.

Q. But you looked inside that?

A. Yes.

Q. Why?

A. Seemed like a good place to dispose of something,

possibly somewhere someone wouldn't look.

Q. And particularly if you're coming out of that

gate, that does make sense, doesn't it?

A. Very close to it, yes.

Q. And so you look down and you see something in

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KAREN B. MARTINEZ

OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER

STATE v. THOMAS OLIVAS 149

there, right, in 28?

A. There are several things down in the bottom

amongst leaves and debris, one of which is a

screwdriver.

Q. And you said you first saw the screwdriver. Did

you take that picture whenever you saw the screwdriver?

A. I believe, if this is from the series of scene

photographs, this is a photograph on the day that I

located it.

Q. And can you show the jurors where that is? It's

hard to see in theirs.

A. It is right here.

Q. And it's laying on top of a bunch of leaves?

(Pause in proceedings)

MS. KEENE: Let me go old school.

THE COURT: It's allowed.

Q. (BY MS. KEENE) Is my finger on the screwdriver?

A. Yeah. You can see a portion of the screwdriver

is covered by debris and a portion of it is not.

Q. So when you look down, you could see the

screwdriver with your bare eyes?

A. Yes.

Q. So it's not like you had to dig through the

debris?

A. No.

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KAREN B. MARTINEZ

OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER

STATE v. THOMAS OLIVAS 150

Q. And so when you looked down and you saw this

screwdriver that first time, you took a picture of it,

correct?

A. I did.

Q. But did you not collect it?

A. I did not.

Q. And then you finish your business and you go

home, right?

A. Eventually, yes.

Q. Eventually. And then as any good crime scene

officer, this bothered you?

A. Yes.

Q. Because you didn't collect it?

A. Yes.

Q. And so you were able to solve that, right?

A. Yes.

Q. And you went and collected it?

A. On my next shift, yes.

Q. And so how many days after did you go collect

this?

A. Ten hours.

Q. So it wasn't even a day?

A. No.

Q. But had you not done that and we were in this

courtroom, you would be very upset, wouldn't you?

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KAREN B. MARTINEZ

OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER

STATE v. THOMAS OLIVAS 151

A. Yes.

Q. It would have been bothering you for years,

really?

A. It would have been.

Q. So you knew that you need to go get it because of

why?

A. Conscientiousness. I don't know.

Q. Oh, yeah, that's true. But you couldn't go back

and get it today, potentially, right?

A. Correct.

Q. It certainly wouldn't be in the same condition it

was on the day that this young lady was murdered?

A. No.

Q. And you're only the person -- and you really are

the only person that gets to choose or not what evidence

is coming into this courtroom. Never thought of it that

way, did you?

THE COURT: Is that a question?

MS. KEENE: Yes, it is.

THE COURT: So you can give an opinion if

you have one.

THE WITNESS: I think that the attorneys

decide what comes into the courtroom.

Q. (BY MS. KEENE) That's a good answer, I guess.

But they can't put anything into evidence

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KAREN B. MARTINEZ

OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER

STATE v. THOMAS OLIVAS 152

that you didn't collect, correct?

A. Correct.

Q. Let me show you what has been marked as Defense

Exhibit 29 and ask you if you recognize that?

A. Yes.

Q. What is 29?

A. It is item SFR-54, which is the screwdriver in

question.

Q. And where did you take this picture?

A. That was taken in my lab at 620 West Division,

the main police station.

Q. And how come you took a picture of this, as well

as other items of evidence, in your lab?

A. I always try to take lab photographs of evidence

that I collect because it's under controlled lighting,

controlled situation and I have time to examine them and

get photographs of the pertinent information.

Q. And so do you think this would help the jurors in

knowing exactly what the screwdriver looked like, as

opposed to that little tiny picture?

A. Yes.

MS. KEENE: Judge, we would offer in Defense

Exhibit No. 29.

MS. RAY: No objection, Your Honor.

THE COURT: All right. Defense 29 is

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KAREN B. MARTINEZ

OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER

STATE v. THOMAS OLIVAS 153

admitted. Defense 29.

(Defendant's Exhibit No. 29 admitted)

MS. KEENE: Permission to publish by ELMO?

THE COURT: Yes.

Q. (BY MS. KEENE) And so is this -- tell us what

this is.

A. This is a picture of the screwdriver that was

collected from the build-out.

Q. And so this, just like any piece of evidence,

could be very significant or it could not be significant

at all?

A. Yes.

Q. But because it could be significant, you

collected it?

A. Right.

Q. It was certainly at the right place?

A. It was around a place that might need a

screwdriver to do work on. However, it also could have

been disposed of by someone who used it to pry open a

back door.

Q. Exactly.

A. I don't know.

Q. And you had pry marks on a back door?

A. Yes.

Q. So when you have pry marks on a back door and

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KAREN B. MARTINEZ

OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER

STATE v. THOMAS OLIVAS 154

you're a good crime scene officer and you see a

screwdriver that could easily have caused those pry

marks, you need to go collect it, and you did?

A. I -- yes, I feel like you do.

Q. Okay. Before we go into some of the pictures of

the crime scene, I want to go over these, the dimensions

in the diagram that we put in before. Okay?

A. Yes.

Q. Let's start with No. 7. We're not going to go

through these individually, but to give them an idea

of the work y'all did out there and why did you this.

So this is your report; is that correct?

A. No. This is CSI Tricksey's sketch and her

attached documentation which lists out the actual

physical measurements.

Q. And you helped her do some of these measurements,

correct?

A. Yes. It's a two-person job.

Q. Because you've got to have one person on one side

holding the tape measure and the other person at the

other side, or how do you do know that?

A. At the time we were using a standard tape

measure. Now we have a laser measuring device, which

enables one person to be able to obtain the same

measurements. But we were, as you said, old school

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OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER

STATE v. THOMAS OLIVAS 155

doing things at this time.

Q. Defense Exhibit No. 7 has got 19 items on the

first page, 1 through 19; is that correct?

A. Yes.

Q. Just to make it more confusing, it's SFR-2

through 20?

A. I can explain if it makes it --

Q. Yeah.

A. -- for clarity purposes.

Q. Go for it.

THE COURT: Whoa. One at a time. Go ahead.

THE WITNESS: The first SFR item in any case

that I work will be a photo, CD or DVD. The first

evidence marker number that I use will always be number

one. So I will always be one number behind, just to

keep it confusing.

Q. (BY MS. KEENE) Okay. I like that. That's fun.

And now -- and of course all these numbers, what -- if

they've been introduced, they're going to have different

numbers on their evidence stickers here?

A. The numbers 1 through 19 will correspond with the

evidence marker placards that you see in the

photographs. The SFR numbers are for my property room

only and can be disregarded for our purposes here.

Q. All right. So what -- and the reason I'm

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OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER

STATE v. THOMAS OLIVAS 156

bringing this up is we don't need to think that, okay,

let's look at 12 and go to the plaque pictures and find

12 and think you're going to find the Marlboro

cigarettes?

A. Right.

Q. So --

A. Eleven is the Virginia Slims cigarettes and 12 is

a knife, but, yes, you're right.

Q. These numbers are not going to help us, just the

concept of what the evidence is that you recovered?

A. The numbers 1 through 19 will assist you. The

SFR numbers will not assist you.

Q. I understand then. So 11 on the placard is a

Virginia Slim?

A. Yes. Evidence marker number 11 in the photograph

will be a Virginia Slims cigarette package.

Q. Okay. Not the number here. All right. Now,

whenever y'all would do this, what is -- what's it

take -- use the -- let's do the pack of Virginia Slims,

number 11, SFR-12. What does "6'10, south of C, east of

E" mean?

A. If you look at the legend above the list that

you're looking at now, each wall, CSI Tricksey assigned

each wall a letter to keep it a little simpler. Instead

of saying ten feet from the east wall, she'll say ten

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KAREN B. MARTINEZ

OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER

STATE v. THOMAS OLIVAS 157

feet from wall G or D, however it coordinates. She has

her diagram with the evidence marker numbers. I believe

it is in evidence. I don't know what number.

MS. KEENE: Judge, may I approach her with

the large board?

THE COURT: Yes, you may.

THE WITNESS: Number 4.

Q. (BY MS. KEENE) State's Exhibit No. 4, does it

have A, B, Cs, all those numbers -- or letters?

A. Yes. As you can see A, B, C, D. Each wall that

is relevant to our measurements has been designated a

letter for clarity. So when CSI Tricksey states

six-foot, ten inches, south of C, she is coming to C,

coming down ten feet, six inches, and that is how far

away our number 11 would be from wall C.

Q. And you're -- are you showing them how 11 is the

same 11 up there, Virginia Slims?

A. I'm trying to.

Q. Right.

A. So C and 11, that's the distance, six foot, ten

inches, south. And we have our cardinal directions

here.

Q. And so that's what is the absolute accurate --

this is not to scale. This is just to give you an idea

of where things are?

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KAREN B. MARTINEZ

OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER

STATE v. THOMAS OLIVAS 158

A. Correct.

Q. That is the actual hundred percent accurate of

exactly where this particular item was?

A. Correct.

Q. Now, y'all also took measurements of the rooms,

correct?

A. Yes.

Q. And Tricksey put together a diagram; is that

correct?

A. Yes.

Q. And is that contained in Defense Exhibit No. 6?

A. Yes, it is.

Q. I just can't read those numbers from here. But

can you -- why don't you tell the jurors how big --

where is the front door?

A. Front door is here. Basically it's central in

the diagram.

Q. And is this the same diagram that we just held

up?

A. I believe it -- I believe she worked off the same

template, but I can't attest to that a hundred percent.

Q. But it certainly looks a lot the same?

A. Yes.

Q. Only this one has got numbers in it, correct?

A. Correct. We've removed the evidence markers so

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KAREN B. MARTINEZ

OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER

STATE v. THOMAS OLIVAS 159

that we could put the dimensions in without causing it

to be so cluttered that you couldn't understand what

was going on.

Q. All right. So if I live in the apartment

adjoining Ms. Gandy, where -- how far am I from her

front door, if I am standing at my front door?

A. Well, you've got 21 feet and 9 inches from the

front door area of this apartment to the terminate wall

here. The front door to Apartment 603 -- excuse me --

THE REPORTER: Could you slow down, please.

Q. (BY MS. KEENE) So basically you have under

20 feet, close to it?

A. Yes.

Q. If you're standing at the neighbor's door,

correct?

A. It appears to.

Q. When you were there, the whole time you were

there, Mechelle was here, correct, the deceased here,

correct?

A. Correct.

Q. There was not another car here?

A. No, there was not.

Q. There was not a car here and a barbecue pit with

some fajitas on it?

A. Not in the parking lot area.

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KAREN B. MARTINEZ

OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER

STATE v. THOMAS OLIVAS 160

Q. Right. However, there was Mechelle?

A. Yes.

Q. But if a person was sitting right here, had their

car here and had their fajitas, grill rolling, about how

far is that from the front door?

A. I would only be approximating it. Approximately

ten feet, half the distance between the retaining wall

here and her front door.

Q. And the best you can do is approximate, but at

least y'all have done your measurements so you can do a

pretty good approximation about how far a person would

be if they're right in this area from her front door?

A. Roughly.

Q. And how much distance is from, let's say, the end

here all the way down to here? And that's going to

require some math.

A. Allow me to tabulate?

Q. Absolutely. Do you want me to bring you this one

up here or you have one?

A. I have one.

I would say we could estimate it at between

28 and 30 feet.

Q. So it's about 30 feet from here to here?

A. Approximately.

Q. So if you're going to approximate from -- what

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KAREN B. MARTINEZ

OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER

STATE v. THOMAS OLIVAS 161

about that same -- about right in here to the end of

this, about how many feet is that?

A. I'm sorry. Could you show again where you...

Q. Basically about right in here in the front, about

where says "decedent" to about there.

A. Well, if we approximated that between eight and

ten feet just a moment ago and you add it to the 28 to

30, then you're looking at 36 to 40, I assume.

Q. Or you actually have to subtract this amount,

wouldn't you?

A. Again, subtract, what, ten feet.

Q. So you're probably looking at 25 feet-ish?

A. From?

Q. And we can get a calculator and do it pretty

exact, because she's done the measurements, correct?

A. Yes. I'm confused about what you're asking.

Sorry.

Q. Okay. If you -- let's just say where it says

"decedent one" to this corner, we're down here, about

how far would that be?

A. Well, if we had approximated looking -- we know

that is 22, right?

Q. Correct.

A. If we are thinking the door is at least a couple

of feet from the retaining wall, so we went to 20, and

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KAREN B. MARTINEZ

OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER

STATE v. THOMAS OLIVAS 162

assuming the decedent is halfway, at ten feet, and that

this, from the front door to the southern wall, is

approximately 28 to 30 feet, then you're looking at 38

to 40 feet.

Q. You just convinced me. I gotcha.

A. Got me, okay.

Q. All right. So from here to there is basically

40 feet-ish?

A. Yes.

Q. And here's the patio we talked about, correct?

A. Yes.

Q. And here's the back door, correct?

A. Yes.

Q. And was this back door open or closed whenever

you were there?

A. It was open during my time on the scene.

Q. And so the whole time you're there, this back

door was open?

A. Yes.

Q. Was -- is there a two-door process; in other

words, is this a screen door and a glass door?

A. Yes.

Q. Were they both open?

A. Yes.

Q. That is a very significant point for a crime

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KAREN B. MARTINEZ

OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER

STATE v. THOMAS OLIVAS 163

scene officer to make and you did make it in this case,

correct?

A. In most scenes it is very significant. In an

arson scene where the fire department has been through,

I think it loses some of its potential significance.

Q. Because who knows, could that have been firemen

or could that have been the murderer, who knows, that

left that open?

A. Correct, I don't know.

Q. All right. So back here, is it right about back

in here where is the fence line is?

A. Correct.

Q. And where is the gate?

A. The gate is going to be at the southwest corner

of the building, somewhat at an angle.

Q. And so the gate that was open, that we don't know

if it's significant that it's open, but it was open and

the little hinky-locking mechanism was right about in

here?

A. Yes.

Q. And then right about in here is that box where

you found the -- the screwdriver?

A. Yes.

Q. And then somewhere right about in here is where

you found the library card?

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KAREN B. MARTINEZ

OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER

STATE v. THOMAS OLIVAS 164

A. Probably right around in here. It appeared to be

a significant angle from the build-out and the

screwdriver. And I could see clearly the parking lot

area up here.

Q. Where did it appear that runoff -- could you tell

where the runoff came from?

A. I don't recall, with it being so long ago.

Q. Could you tell if it was going this way runoff or

this way runoff? You're --

A. Are you talking about topography?

Q. Yeah.

A. Elevation?

Q. Yes.

A. I believe it was running off towards the parking

area, but I could be wrong.

Q. So running from basically this to that direction,

taking whatever water's back here back that way?

A. Correct.

Q. Okay. All right. Now, in this area right here,

what is that?

A. That's the kitchen.

Q. And you described it as a small, gallery-type

kitchen?

A. It is -- galley is the way I describe it.

Q. I like to mispronounce words. I think you're

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KAREN B. MARTINEZ

OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER

STATE v. THOMAS OLIVAS 165

right, it is galley.

Where was the majority of the significant

amount of blood that you found?

A. The floor of the kitchen had the largest blood

pool, as we saw in our photographs yesterday. There was

also blood in the entryway and on this wall just inside

the front door, additional smaller amount of blood on

the doorjamb just west of the front door, a small amount

of blood on the western side of the bar, and a small

amount of blood on a box beneath the desk, along the

northern living room wall.

Q. And then we'll talk about this in a minute. And

then there's also a dishtowel back here that had

something on it, that you don't know if it was blood on

it, either?

A. It had the look of blood.

Q. So other than the dishtowel that had apparent

blood, under here that had apparent blood, was all the

apparent blood within the kitchen area?

A. Yes.

Q. Did Tricksey make a diagram of the kitchen area?

A. Yes.

Q. And if -- can you take that diagram and just

highlight the areas where there was apparent blood in

that -- in that kitchen area?

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KAREN B. MARTINEZ

OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER

STATE v. THOMAS OLIVAS 166

A. Yes.

Q. And I asked you to -- prepared you that that

might -- I might ask you that question?

A. Yes.

Q. Did I give you that diagram already?

A. Yes.

Q. Did I? Okay. Can you do that?

A. Yes.

Q. Do you need a highlighter?

A. Yes.

Q. I'm going to hand you two different red pens.

You can choose. And I'm going to mark -- show you

what's been marked as Defense Exhibit No. 30 and ask you

if you recognize that diagram?

A. Yes, I do.

Q. Is that a diagram of the kitchen area?

A. Yes, it is.

Q. And this is the diagram that we were just talking

about that you think would assist, in a conceptual way,

to show the jurors where the different apparent

bloodstains were?

A. Yes, I do.

Q. Okay. If you could mark it up for us.

(Pause in proceedings)

THE WITNESS: I'm finished.

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KAREN B. MARTINEZ

OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER

STATE v. THOMAS OLIVAS 167

Q. (BY MS. KEENE) Okay. And so on Defense Exhibit

No. 30, does that contain all of the areas where there

was blood, except for the apparent blood under the table

or desk and the apparent blood on the dishtowel by the

door?

A. Yes.

Q. So we're only missing two areas that you believe

you collected evidence swabs or something that appeared

to have blood on it?

A. Yes. But that's not actually accurate.

Q. All right. Here we go. And also write that

down.

A. I also believe there was an unknown red stain on

the knife block.

Q. Here we go.

A. So write what down?

Q. Write the areas -- is the knife block in the

kitchen?

A. Yes.

Q. Go ahead and put a mark -- or put "knife block"

where you think there is a...

Defendant's Exhibit No. 30, there are two

other areas that you believed had apparent -- and you

can write "apparent blood" where you -- and if you would

just write it down so it's clear.

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KAREN B. MARTINEZ

OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER

STATE v. THOMAS OLIVAS 168

A. So we're speaking about the box under the dresser

and the towel near the porch door?

Q. Yes, ma'am. You can just write those words so

the exhibit is complete.

And so do you now feel like Defense Exhibit

No. 30 is a complete showing of where you collected

samples or items that appeared to you to have blood on

it?

A. Yes.

MS. KEENE: We would offer Defense Exhibit

No. 30 into evidence.

MS. RAY: No objection, Your Honor.

THE COURT: All right. And for the record,

what you had her hand-write is also in the same red ink

you had her mark the other things; is that correct?

MS. KEENE: Yes, sir.

THE COURT: All right. Defense 30 is

admitted.

(Defendant's Exhibit No. 30 admitted)

MS. KEENE: Permission to publish via ELMO?

THE COURT: Hand it to her and let her log

it and let her date it.

(Pause in proceedings)

MS. KEENE: Do you care if I put the sticker

on, or do you want me to let her do all of it?

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OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER

STATE v. THOMAS OLIVAS 169

THE COURT: I would just let her write a

sticker. She writes what it is, she logs it --

MS. KEENE: Right.

THE COURT: -- and that keeps -- it makes

her job easier and keeps the record clearer.

MS. KEENE: I will do that.

Q. (BY MS. KEENE) All right. Let me show the

jurors what Defense No. 30 is showing them.

A. This is a diagram of the kitchen area.

Q. Where is the front door to orient them?

A. Front door is here.

Q. And that front door opens -- and I know this is

not to scale, we can -- we'll ultimately look at

pictures. But when that front door opens, does it open

and cover up this wall?

A. Yes. It opens in towards the closet door here.

Q. And it's big enough to -- basically if that door

is open, it's going to cover up almost that whole area?

A. It was wedged open during my time on scene and I

did not attempt to fully open it to see. But it is a

large door. It's larger than the closet door.

Q. Okay. And right when you open up that door -- or

let's go backwards. Behind the door then, the front

door, at 27, what was that that you found that you

thought was blood?

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KAREN B. MARTINEZ

OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER

STATE v. THOMAS OLIVAS 170

A. Apparent blood on the floor.

Q. And so that's blood on the floor --

A. Yes --

Q. -- right in here?

Twenty-nine is also behind the door; is that

correct?

A. Yes. That's blood on the closet door and door

frame.

Q. And like I said, we'll go back over there with

the pictures, but is this -- this is actually a

significant amount of blood on the door?

A. Yes.

Q. This is the amount of blood that's really at the

door frame?

A. Yes.

Q. This is the one that's on the wall, or the door

of the closet?

A. Correct. Any time you see an arrow, it's going

to be indicating that something is raised or elevated,

as opposed to being on the floor.

Q. Okay. Thank you. I did not know that. So 24

then is what?

A. That is the area of apparent blood that's right

at the baseboard on the northwest corner of the door

frame here.

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KAREN B. MARTINEZ

OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER

STATE v. THOMAS OLIVAS 171

Q. Okay. And then 25 is what?

A. The apparent blood on the wall as you enter the

apartment.

Q. All right. And that's where also there was a

number of droppings or what appeared to be blood coming

down the wall?

A. Yes.

Q. Was here and that is at 25?

A. Yes.

Q. What about 31, what is that?

A. The apparent blood on the face of the cabinets

that we saw yesterday.

Q. And that was where -- it was actually on wood so

it was harder to see?

A. Yes, it was.

Q. But it was more dotted than dropping, than

gravity pulling?

A. Correct. It didn't have specific directionality

that was really evident.

Q. And y'all documented the height of where these

began, or ended in a lot of them, didn't you?

A. In many of them, yes.

Q. And then what about 41? What was 41? What was

the blood there?

A. It was an apparent bloodstain on both the wall

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KAREN B. MARTINEZ

OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER

STATE v. THOMAS OLIVAS 172

and at the baseboard.

Q. And was this also a significant amount in here?

A. Not as significant, no.

Q. Not like what was really in 27 -- and -- or 25

and 29?

A. Correct.

Q. Were those the two bigger areas?

A. Yes.

Q. As far as when you just like liked a wall and

went, oh, like, you know, I know what I'm seeing?

A. Yes.

Q. Okay. Where was the dark area where you said you

couldn't really see the red on the wall but it did look

like it was something coming down?

A. That is the northern wall of the -- beginning in

the living room, leading into the front door. It's to

the west of the front door. So it would be this area

here.

Q. So this area is what looked like blood, but it

was -- it had a lot of soot on it or something on it

that made it dark and it looked like blood, though?

A. The pattern formation looked similar to the blood

that was at 25. However, the coloring was completely

different.

Q. And the wall was completely different, the

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KAREN B. MARTINEZ

OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER

STATE v. THOMAS OLIVAS 173

coloring from the fire?

A. Correct.

Q. Okay. Forty-one. What about 32? What was 32?

A. Thirty-two was the large blood pool that was

protected by the plastic from the lighting arrangement.

Q. Okay. And then what about 30?

A. Thirty was the blackened stain which was on the

range hood above the stove.

Q. And what about 35?

A. Thirty-five was the wooden knife block that did

have an unidentified red stain on it.

Q. And if you're dealing with -- at this point you

know you've seen enough or you know enough that Mechelle

has probably been stabbed as opposed to shot or

something?

A. Yes.

Q. In other words, you know a knife is a potential

thing that would be of use to kill her?

A. Yes.

Q. So if you see a red stain on even a kitchen block

knife, that's significant to anyone and certainly

significant to a crime scene investigator, correct?

A. Yes.

Q. And so you made note of it and you also collected

the whole block?

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STATE v. THOMAS OLIVAS 174

A. Yes.

Q. And that's the block the folks saw today,

correct?

A. Yes.

Q. And looking at her whole apartment and I know the

fire caused so much damage, the water, did it appear,

from what you could see, that there was any other areas

where a fight, or however you wanted to describe this,

happened?

A. I would not have been able to tell you that in

the condition the apartment was in when I arrived.

Q. So you can't look at that crime scene and say

this is where she was killed?

A. I cannot, no.

Q. And I know you're not a crime scene

reconstruction person.

A. Correct.

Q. There are people that do that?

A. Yes.

Q. But certainly, based on what you could see in

that house, if she had been stabbed in her own bedroom,

you weren't going to be able to determine that or not,

were you?

A. If there had been blood in the bedroom, I

certainly would have done my best to locate and document

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KAREN B. MARTINEZ

OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER

STATE v. THOMAS OLIVAS 175

it. That's as -- that's about as far as I can go with

that statement.

Q. And you didn't find any blood on her mattress

because that may have not gone away?

A. Correct. I did not see any, no.

Q. Or anything else in her bedroom, as -- like you

said as best you can say?

A. As best as I can say.

Q. So as best you can say, this is the area that

certainly had what appeared the most significant blood

from -- based on the state of the crime scene?

A. Yes.

Q. Okay. I also talked to you about explaining to

the jurors in a real life way, because all we know is

this, the blood, the apparent blood is in this room, is

giving them an idea about how big visually that room is.

A. Yes.

Q. Do you feel comfortable doing that?

A. Yes.

Q. And I promised you a measuring tape, correct?

A. Yes.

Q. Okay. So we could accurately show them the real

size of this entryway, right?

A. Yes. Yes.

MS. KEENE: Judge, may she step down so we

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STATE v. THOMAS OLIVAS 176

can do that?

THE COURT: Yes.

Q. (BY MS. KEENE) Looking at the courtroom and I

know you love the jury box, but let's not do it in the

jury box, so we can walk around. What area, here or

over here, do you think would easily show it?

Right where you're standing. Okay. I'll

let you have the tape measure.

A. The kitchen itself, the galley kitchen, measured

at three foot, three inches at its widest point. So not

even as wide as the distance between...

Q. So that's how wide the kitchen was?

A. Yes.

Q. All right.

A. Or was not.

Q. That's true. That's how wide the kitchen was

not. And so when you said short, compressed, it was

very compressed in there?

A. Yes.

Q. Now, let's give them an idea of -- so that's

about at -- it's about at -- can you look back there?

Is that about the edge of that ELMO table?

A. You can let it go.

Q. All right.

A. Yeah. You're about two inches shy.

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OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER

STATE v. THOMAS OLIVAS 177

Q. Okay. And now, let's see, from that, if you can

bring out the kitchen, how long it was from the door.

Do you have that measurement?

A. Yeah. We got math. Twelve feet, 10 inches. All

the way to the front door?

Q. Yes.

A. Because the kitchen itself was only nine foot,

eight.

Q. Well, let's go to the kitchen first so they can

see it and then we'll go to the front door.

A. The bar, which separated the southern wall of the

living room from that wall inside the entryway, so this

is -- this would be the length of the bar itself.

Q. Okay.

A. To about here.

Q. So the bar kind of defines the end of the

kitchen?

A. It does, pantry included.

Q. Okay. I'm like standing in front of all them.

Let me get out of it. Okay. It's about right there?

There we go.

A. So you're looking just about the distance from

that side to this table.

Q. Skinny?

A. And thin.

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OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER

STATE v. THOMAS OLIVAS 178

Q. And that's where most -- and that compressed area

is where most of the apparent blood was found by you?

A. Yes.

Q. And certainly the big amount is on the walls?

A. The walls and on the floor. The large pool on

the floor.

Q. And so we're talking about the floor was right in

this area?

A. And if someone were, say, laying on the floor of

the kitchen, there would not be -- on either side of --

THE REPORTER: There wouldn't be what?

THE WITNESS: A lot of room on either side

of that. Sorry.

Q. (BY MS. KEENE) Now, if you're in the kitchen

and -- I mean if you're at the front door and you walk

into the kitchen, how many feet do you -- if you walk

into the house, how many feet do you take before you're

right in the kitchen? How many feet do you...

A. How many feet is it?

Q. Yeah.

A. How steps would you take?

Q. That's actually what I asked you.

A. Well, your steps are different than mine, are

different than theirs, so it's tricky. So three foot,

two inches.

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KAREN B. MARTINEZ

OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER

STATE v. THOMAS OLIVAS 179

Q. So it's three -- show them again what three foot,

two inches is.

A. So this would have been the general foyer, I

guess if you'd like to call it, or entryway.

Approximately this far from...

Q. And so if you walk in, the door swung to the

left?

A. Correct.

Q. And behind that door area was the closet door?

A. Yes.

Q. But it's all compressed?

A. It is. It is very tight. It's a tight squeeze.

Q. And that's where a large amount of the blood was,

on that door?

A. Yes.

Q. Okay. Thank you.

A. It wasn't as bad as you said.

Q. Okay. All right. Have a seat back up here.

THE COURT: All right. Let the record

reflect that during the last series of testimony, the

witness was holding a traditional carpenter-type tape

measure, displaying measurements and distances in open

court, in the presence of the parties and the jury.

You may continue.

Q. (BY MS. KEENE) Let me show you what has been

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KAREN B. MARTINEZ

OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER

STATE v. THOMAS OLIVAS 180

marked as Defense Exhibit No. 32, 33 -- 31, 32, 33, 34,

35, and 36 and ask you if you recognize those pictures?

A. Yes, I do.

Q. Did you take those pictures?

A. Yes, I did.

Q. And do they fairly and accurately show the scene

as it looked at nighttime when you were there on 3/20?

A. Yes, it does.

MS. KEENE: I'd offer Defense Exhibit No. 31

through 36.

MS. RAY: No objection, Your Honor.

THE COURT: All right. Defense 31, 32, 33,

34, 35, and 36 each admitted.

(Defendant's Exhibit No. 31 - 36 admitted)

MS. KEENE: Permission to publish via ELMO?

THE COURT: You may do so.

Q. (BY MS. KEENE) When you arrived at the scene,

Ms. Gandy was out and they had already declared her

deceased, right?

A. Yes.

Q. And she was in the front area, correct?

A. Yes.

Q. And we saw from the diagram, if you're facing her

car, she was to the left of her car?

A. Yes.

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KAREN B. MARTINEZ

OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER

STATE v. THOMAS OLIVAS 181

Q. And right in front of this area there was a lot

of chalk, drawings and chalk; is that correct?

A. Yes.

Q. Was there also a little scooter out there?

A. A little blue scooter, yes.

Q. Like a little kid scooter?

A. Yes.

Q. And there was, you know, the little Tupperware

that -- did it appear to be what the chalk went in?

A. I don't know. Possibly.

Q. You did not collect this stuff, did you?

A. No.

Q. It appeared to be -- did -- a kid playing with

chalk didn't appear to be something that you needed to

collect?

A. No.

Q. So whatever it was, when you were out there at

the scene, this did not appear to be a part of what

happened in there?

A. No.

Q. So if that was significant, it didn't seem

significant to you because there's a bunch of chalk

around it?

A. Correct.

Q. All right. And as stated, there's not a car

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KAREN B. MARTINEZ

OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER

STATE v. THOMAS OLIVAS 182

right here next to Ms. Gandy's car?

A. No.

Q. And this is from the other side, you took -- as

you do -- as you start walking and taking your outside

pictures, tell the jurors where Defense Exhibit No. 32

is, what it's showing now?

A. This is a little further along, going towards the

gate, which we've looked at, which would be off to the

left side of the photograph. The door to the apartment

in question is just inside this recessed area. This is

the Honda. Ms. Gandy would be off the right edge of the

photograph on the other passenger side of the Honda.

Q. And so if somebody was in it -- was sitting on

their car or had a car over there that's by Ms. Gandy,

they would be off the picture in Defense Exhibit No. 32?

Does that make sense?

A. I'm sorry, could you repeat that?

Q. Well, I'll just show this picture. Defense

Exhibit No. 33, what does that show?

A. This is standing behind the white Honda.

Ms. Gandy is here, front door, in this area.

Q. And so if Ms. Gandy wasn't here and there was a

car here, they would basically be right in front of her

door?

A. Yes.

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KAREN B. MARTINEZ

OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER

STATE v. THOMAS OLIVAS 183

Q. So we looked at the measurements and we kind of

talked about how far that was, but visually this picture

shows you, if there's a car in this space, how -- really

how close ten feet is?

A. The angle is a little bit deceptive. But yes, it

gives you an idea.

Q. And that's why you do measurements because

pictures can be a little deceptive sometimes?

A. Absolutely.

Q. All right. You talked about there being a -- the

door propped open. Do you remember what it was propped

open with?

A. With a plastic ladle.

Q. What is that? This is Defense Exhibit No. 34.

Tell the jurors what that's showing.

A. A front door, exterior of the front door to the

apartment, plastic ladle.

Q. Well, what's a ladle?

A. A ladle is like a soup ladle.

Q. Oh, a ladle?

A. Ladle.

Q. Do you have any idea how that got there?

A. I do not know who placed that there.

Q. But that's the condition of the scene as you

arrived?

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KAREN B. MARTINEZ

OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER

STATE v. THOMAS OLIVAS 184

A. Yes.

Q. And also, that could be significant, but it could

also make sense the firemen would grab something out of

the kitchen and prop it open?

A. Yes. For ventilation purposes, to ventilate and

get smoke out so that I could do my job.

Q. Probably not their own ladle?

A. I don't think so.

Q. Okay. That's one of their tools, you never know.

Okay. And that's a -- this is more

close-up, although this ELMO makes things dark, a ladle

stuffed in the door, correct?

A. Yes. The handle is here.

Q. Okay. And then right when you walk in, we kept

talking about as the door opens how there was what

appeared to be blood behind it. What does Defense

Exhibit No. 36 show the jurors?

A. It's the front door to the apartment, the closet

door just behind the front door and the apparent

bloodstain on that wall and door.

Q. And did you take measurements of high how high up

this was?

A. There -- we saw photographs yesterday with a

ruler in place, a long, standing yardstick.

Q. And that's not -- it was up, what, about two

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KAREN B. MARTINEZ

OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER

STATE v. THOMAS OLIVAS 185

feet?

A. I don't want to guess. I'd rather see the

photograph.

Q. I'll give you yesterday's pictures.

(Pause in proceedings)

THE COURT: Joetta --

THE WITNESS: I found it.

THE COURT: -- she found it.

Q. (BY MS. KEENE) How many feet up or inches up

where -- where did you measure in and looking at Defense

Exhibit 36?

A. The middle portion, the main center mass of the

largest stain is at approximately 24 inches from the

floor. The top -- the highest point here just below the

doorknob appears to be approximately 35 inches, with the

doorknob being an even three feet.

Q. The doorknob being even three feet?

A. From the floor.

Q. So the doorknob of the closet door is three feet

down?

A. Three feet up from the floor.

Q. Up from the floor or three feet down from the

doorknob? Three feet -- up from the floor to the

doorknob is three feet?

A. Yes, ma'am.

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KAREN B. MARTINEZ

OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER

STATE v. THOMAS OLIVAS 186

Q. There. This -- you called this a transfer-type

pattern?

A. Yes.

Q. How can -- how do you know that, or how can you

tell that when you look at it?

A. The way that the blood is, for lack of a better

term, flattened up against, as opposed to being in

droplet form, rivulet form almost, usually indicates

something bloody coming in contact with a surface and

then either sliding along the surface or -- like a

sponge that's damp or with paint. When you're pressing

it up against a wall, that's similar to the appearance

of a transfer pattern stain.

Q. And so this is like a real visual where it's a

principle of transfer in that because it's red and

blood?

A. It's easy to see that a bleeding person and a

wall came in contact there and left evidence.

Q. Can you tell when you look at that, or do you

have the ability to tell, the velocity of the transfer?

A. I do not.

Q. To know whether or not it's a hard hit or soft

hit or...

A. I don't have the training for that, no.

Q. And you don't have the training to reconstruct

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KAREN B. MARTINEZ

OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER

STATE v. THOMAS OLIVAS 187

what happened in this corner?

A. No.

Q. And there are people that are smarter than us to

be able to do that?

A. Better trained.

Q. Better trained, there you go. People that are

better trained to do that. For us to decide we know

exactly what happened in that corner is speculation,

correct?

A. Yes.

Q. Okay. And what we could tell from this and

what your training tells us is this is a transfer, these

right here. You have a different word for them and

that is called?

A. This is my term. It's looks like a "rivulet" or

a runoff wherein the initial transfer of blood was

significant enough that gravity pulls it from the stain

downward.

Q. And then this area in here had a different type

that you described?

A. It's a little farther in than what you were

pointing to here. They are hard to see because of your

arrow.

MS. KEENE: I don't know how you can

change...

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KAREN B. MARTINEZ

OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER

STATE v. THOMAS OLIVAS 188

THE COURT: There's a -- off the record.

(Discussion off the record)

THE WITNESS: They are here. These are

directional blood spatter patterns.

Q. (BY MS. KEENE) Directional as in?

A. As in when blood makes contact with a surface and

it is in motion, a tail forms on the blood droplet

itself which indicates the direction in which it was

traveling.

Q. What direction was this blood traveling?

A. From -- if we are staring at the door, we'll say

right to left, upwards to downwards, so in a motion such

as this.

Q. Right to left, upwards to downwards?

A. If you're standing, facing the door, yes.

Q. I understand. At the angle of -- can you tell

the angle when you're looking at a better picture, or

not really?

A. Again, I don't have the training. That requires

measuring with calibers the actual -- it's -- it's akin

to shooting reconstruction, but I am not a blood spatter

pattern person.

Q. And I appreciate you not speculating.

This door, though -- and then we're going to

take a break, I believe, or at least I think.

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KAREN B. MARTINEZ

OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER

STATE v. THOMAS OLIVAS 189

THE COURT: Uh-huh.

Q. (BY MS. KEENE) This door, if it shuts, it

basically covers up that door right there, that closet

door; is that correct?

A. From the angle that the photograph is taken, it

certainly does appear that way. Again, I didn't test

that theory on scene.

Q. Okay. But you do know that the front door was

bigger than the closet door?

A. It was definitely wider, yes.

Q. So that angle may not be as deceiving, it may not

be deceiving, it may be accurate?

A. Possibly.

Q. Okay. Thank you, ma'am.

THE COURT: All right. Let's take a stretch

break.

Did anyone drink any iced tea for lunch?

Yes. All right. Let's take a short stretch

break. Hit the buzzer when you're ready to come back.

Maybe about ten minutes.

(Break taken, 3:35 - 4:05 p.m.)

(OPEN COURT, DEFENDANT AND JURY PRESENT)

(Witness on the stand)

THE COURT: Still cross-examination.

Q. (BY MS. KEENE) Let me show you what has been

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OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER

STATE v. THOMAS OLIVAS 190

marked as State's Exhibit -- or -- Defense Exhibit

No. 37, 38, 39, 40, 41, 42, 43 and ask you if you

recognize those exhibits.

A. Yes, I do.

Q. And did you take all these pictures?

A. Yes, I did.

Q. And would they aid you in explaining to the

jurors the pattern that you found on the floor in the

kitchen?

A. Yes.

Q. As well as in the foyer area?

A. Yes.

MS. KEENE: I would offer 37 through 43.

MS. RAY: No objection, Your Honor.

THE COURT: All right. Defense Exhibit

No. 37, 38, 39, 40, 41, 42, and 43 are each admitted.

(Defendant's Exhibit No. 37 - 43 admitted)

MS. KEENE: Thank you, Judge. Permission to

display them on the ELMO?

THE COURT: Yes.

Q. (BY MS. KEENE) First, looking back at your

Exhibit No. 30, the kitchen area, most of these pictures

are of blood in that area; is that correct?

A. Yes.

Q. Where is that in the kitchen?

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KAREN B. MARTINEZ

OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER

STATE v. THOMAS OLIVAS 191

A. Most of the blood we're going to be looking in

those photographs is at evidence marker 32, in front of

the oven and range top.

Q. So --

A. On the floor.

Q. And so whenever they see -- and an "appliance",

we're talking about the oven?

A. Yes.

Q. And so these pictures relate to 32?

A. Yes, ma'am.

Q. And Defendant's Exhibit No. 39, what is that

showing the jurors?

A. This is showing part of that large substantial

blood pool on the kitchen floor. The oven is going to

be down off of the frame to the lower left.

Q. And were you able to see any sort of like

footprints or anything within the blood?

A. No. The blood itself is covered by the plastic

sheeting from the light.

Q. And is Defendant's Exhibit No. 39 showing the

blood with the sheet on top of it?

A. No. The sheet has been removed for this

photograph.

Q. Okay. So in -- right up in this area of the

photograph, okay?

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KAREN B. MARTINEZ

OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER

STATE v. THOMAS OLIVAS 192

A. Yes.

Q. In Defendant's Exhibit No. 39 did it appear to

have footprints up in that area?

A. There is tread pattern, what appeared to be tread

pattern in this area, yes.

Q. What is tread pattern?

A. Shoe tread, possibly equipment that will leave

its mark in soot or water-stained areas, even in blood,

which we do see a little bit of here. But the primary

blood pool that was covered by the plastic should be in

this area.

Q. Whenever you lifted, though, the plastic up was

there any sort of impressions, whether they be tread

marks or anything in the blood or in that area under the

plastic?

A. There was an impression in the blood from the

plastic itself. The plastic was like a grated pattern,

grate, G-R-A-T-E. And it was apparent in the

coagulation of the blood in some areas.

Q. And so -- and then just this -- maybe I'm not

understanding. This has the glass, or the plastic, on

top of it already, or the plastic's gone?

A. The plastic is removed. You see the straight

line where we have a very soot-covered floor, as opposed

to a mildly white creamish-colored floor. That is going

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OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER

STATE v. THOMAS OLIVAS 193

to be an area that was uncovered by the plastic, versus

an area that was protected in some fashion from the

plastic.

Q. But then -- and doesn't it appear that within

that whiter area, with the area that was already

covered, that there is some tread marks, there's

something other than blood or the floor?

A. Yes.

Q. And what do you do -- as a crime scene officer,

what can you do other than take a picture?

A. I would imagine that this photograph was taken

during the processing phase, but with firemen going in

and out of the kitchen and that location, there isn't

much I can do about that.

Q. You can say that's either -- as with some of

these things, that's either extremely significant or not

at all?

A. I can say it's not my shoe tread pattern. That's

about all I can tell you.

Q. That -- that's not you causing that?

A. Correct.

Q. But it could be a fireman's causing that?

A. It could be.

Q. Certainly the shoe patterns on top of the -- is

this a picture of the -- what does 42 show us?

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OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER

STATE v. THOMAS OLIVAS 194

A. This is a picture of the plastic sheeting over

the primary blood pool area. Again, you can see some

shoe tread markings in the soot on the plastic, as well

as soot on the floor.

Q. So based on this, you don't have to be much of a

Sherlock Holmes to figure out, firemen, somebody,

outside of being the killer, walked in this area because

that piece of the ply -- or that plastic is there?

A. Yes. That would have come down during the fire.

Q. But under it there's also some markings, and

whether or not that's caused by the killer or firemen,

we just don't know?

A. No.

Q. Do you know whether or not this piece of plastic

was there when they pulled Mechelle out? In other

words, was she on top of this or do you know whether or

not she was -- this came down after she had been pulled

out of the house?

A. I do not know the answer. That's how it was upon

my arrival.

Q. Defendant's Exhibit No. 40, what is that showing

the jurors?

A. This is underneath the oven. There was a drawer

for keeping pots and pans that slid out from the bottom

of the oven, and this is the area underneath it.

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OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER

STATE v. THOMAS OLIVAS 195

Q. Was it already slid out when you arrived?

A. No. I slid it out to look under there to see

if -- I wasn't missing anything.

Q. Okay. So you pulled out -- is that what's

depicted in 41?

A. Yes, it is.

Q. So you've now pulled out the -- or explain to us

what you've done in this.

A. This is the drawer in question. And she did have

several baking pans in that drawer. But this is showing

it removed from the oven, documenting my steps.

Q. And so this was not the way you found it; this is

the way you made it, so to speak?

A. Correct.

Q. Okay. Defense Exhibit No. 43 is a dollar bill.

What is that showing us, other than a dollar bill?

A. The dollar bill was on the kitchen floor at

evidence marker 33.

Q. So going back in our -- in the diagram of the

kitchen, it's at 33?

A. Yes, ma'am.

Q. And you collected that?

A. Yes, I did.

Q. Why? Why does that stand out to you as

something?

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OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER

STATE v. THOMAS OLIVAS 196

A. It's out of place. I find it odd to have a

dollar bill on our kitchen floor.

Q. Even with the firemen in there, it's a one-dollar

bill?

A. Yes. But it's also burned. It's singed. So I'm

not sure where it would have been located. It could

have been on the counter. It could have fallen out of

someone's pocket. I don't know.

Q. And then you also -- this shows a little bit

above -- of this, that you also began to document the

cabinets and what was inside the cabinets; is that

correct?

A. That's correct.

Q. And this also shows -- what does it -- or what

does it show down in here in this area?

A. This is another melted piece of plastic, much

more melted than the large sheet that we saw before.

And this is going to be that same bloody area at

evidence marker number 32.

Q. And so this cabinet is actually the cabinet that

would correspond with the -- next to the closet?

A. This area here. It is going to be on the same

cabinet that the bloodstains from evidence marker 31

were taken from, the face of the cabinet.

Q. So the majority of the blood at 32 is that in --

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KAREN B. MARTINEZ

OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER

STATE v. THOMAS OLIVAS 197

it's where you put the number, basically?

A. She got fairly close. I think it actually is

probably a little bit more centrally located in front of

the oven itself, but she also had to fit "30" in here.

I didn't make the diagram.

Q. Okay. But she had a lot of numbers to put in

there?

A. Yeah.

Q. Because in the kitchen, it was the least damaged?

A. If you're taking into consideration countertops

and the bar top, I don't know if I'd say it's the least

damaged. The kitchen floor was still in fairly good

shape.

Q. It also wasn't carpet, right?

A. Right.

Q. All right. How come you began to take pictures

of the inside of the cabinets?

A. That is standard protocol for me. I've found

things hidden basically in plain sight in cabinets, on

top of the refrigerators, in the back of toilet tanks.

I document areas that I feel may have something of

evidentiary value inside of them just as a course of

action.

Q. If you'll look at Defense Exhibits 44 through 63

and tell me if you recognize those pictures.

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OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER

STATE v. THOMAS OLIVAS 198

A. Yes, I do.

Q. And did you take all those pictures?

A. Yes, I did.

Q. And would these aid you in explaining to the

jurors the different things you found in her kitchen and

why you took the pictures?

A. Yes.

MS. KEENE: Judge, we'd offer at this time

Defense Exhibits 44 through 63.

THE COURT: Inclusively, no gaps?

MS. KEENE: Inclusively, no gaps.

MS. RAY: No objection, Your Honor.

THE COURT: All right. Defense 44, 45, 46,

47, 48, 49, 50, each admitted. Defense 51, 52, 53, 54,

55, 56, 57, 58, 59, 60, 61, 62, and 63 are also

admitted.

(Defendant's Exhibit No. 44 - 63 admitted)

MS. KEENE: Permission to publish with the

ELMO?

THE COURT: Yes.

Q. (BY MS. KEENE) What is this showing the jurors?

A. This is a photograph of the kitchen standing from

the vantage point of the front door looking towards the

pantry. The pantry door is open at this point to show

contents.

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KAREN B. MARTINEZ

OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER

STATE v. THOMAS OLIVAS 199

Q. And did you go through -- and we went -- all

these pictures here, you took pictures of all items in

the pantry?

A. I tried to document all of the cupboards, the

pantry, the refrigerator contents.

Q. You documented every drawer that you looked at;

is that correct?

A. Yes, ma'am.

Q. You documented every cabinet that you looked at?

A. Yes, ma'am.

Q. You opened up the microwave?

A. Yes.

Q. Is that correct?

A. Yes, ma'am.

Q. You opened up every drawer. You opened up the

kitchen refrigerator, correct?

A. Yes, ma'am.

Q. And other than the bottle of Bud Light, did you

find in any of these different places that you looked

cans of Bud Light or cans that were similar to the one

you'd found out in the living room area?

A. Not to my knowledge. Though I do not recall

taking everything out of the refrigerator.

Q. So unless it was somewhere back behind there, you

just did not see that?

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KAREN B. MARTINEZ

OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER

STATE v. THOMAS OLIVAS 200

A. Correct. I did not remove contents. And it is a

very full refrigerator.

Q. And it's full, all the drawers, but you pulled

the drawers open and took a picture, correct?

A. Yes. Yes.

Q. And you looked in the refrigerator -- in the

freezer, correct?

A. Yes.

Q. And what was significant about the Bud Light can

that you found to -- for you to collect and bring here

to court or give to the lab?

A. Cans, bottles, drinking cups, glasses, all of

those are things you put your mouth on. Cigarette butts

are also sometimes relevant. So these are good sources

for DNA, in most cases.

Q. And if there's no Bud Light cans in the house and

there's just one and it's empty and it's in the living

room area, is that also something that would be

significant as a crime scene officer that you would want

to collect in a scene like this?

A. It being empty is irrelevant, as long as it's

open. But yes, it is significant.

MS. KEENE: I will finish at this time. I'm

not passing the witness.

THE COURT: All right. Ms. Keene, can the

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KAREN B. MARTINEZ

OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER

STATE v. THOMAS OLIVAS 201

record reflect, as you discussed with the witness having

taken a picture of everything in the refrigerator and

the cabinets, you were flashing -- putting each of those

exhibits that just got in one at a time for couple of

seconds as she looked at them and as you talked?

MS. KEENE: Yes, sir.

THE COURT: All right. So that would have

been 44 through 54, you showed at least 90 percent of

them, if not all of them?

MS. KEENE: I did, Judge.

THE COURT: All right.

MS. KEENE: Not all of them, but most of

them.

THE COURT: All right.

State okay with that?

MS. RAY: Yes, Your Honor.

THE COURT: All right. Then it's 4:33 and

it's time to call it a weekend.

Blue card instructions now become more

important than they ever have because the exposure to

others when you're not too tired to talk, gives you

three days to rest up. Those of you who have been

dealing with the weather changes and the allergies and

what's affected us, I hope you feel better next week.

And thanks for sticking with us through this marathon,

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OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER

STATE v. THOMAS OLIVAS 202

if you will, at the courthouse. I'll see you Tuesday

morning. Y'all be at your regular pickup point.

And if the attorneys need the Court or the

court reporter for anything over the break, Monday we're

here. Otherwise, I'll expect to see y'all back her

about ten till 9:00 on Tuesday.

And with that, we'll be in recess.

Enjoy your weekend.

(Jury excused from courtroom)

THE COURT: Everyone else remain in the

courtroom until the jury has cleared the elevator.

(Recessed for the day at 4:35 p.m.)

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OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER

STATE v. THOMAS OLIVAS 203

COURT REPORTER'S CERTIFICATE

THE STATE OF TEXAS )

COUNTY OF TARRANT )

I, Karen B. Martinez, Official Court Reporter in and

for the 372nd District Court of Tarrant County, State of

Texas, do hereby certify that the above and foregoing

contains a true and correct transcription of all

portions of evidence and other proceedings requested in

writing by counsel for the parties to be included in

this volume of the Reporter's Record, in the

above-styled and numbered cause, all of which occurred

in open court or in chambers and were reported by me.

I further certify that this Reporter's Record of the

proceedings truly and correctly reflects the exhibits,

if any, admitted by the respective parties.

I further certify that the total cost for the

preparation of this Reporter's Record is located at the

end of Volume 21.

WITNESS MY OFFICIAL HAND this the 30th day of March,

2015.

/s/ Karen B. Martinez 

Karen B. Martinez, Texas CSR 6735

Expiration Date: 12/31/2015

Official Court Reporter

372nd District Court

Tarrant County, Texas

(817)884-2996

kbmartinez@tarrantcounty.com

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