1

1 Environmental Protection Agency

2

3

4

5

6 Public Hearing on

7 Proposed Clean Power Plan for

8 Existing Power Plants

9

10

11

12 9 a.m. to 8:05 p.m.

13 Wednesday, July 30, 2014

14

15 Room A

16 Omni Hotel

17 100 CNN Center

18 Atlanta, Georgia 30303

19

20

21

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1 EPA PANEL 1:

2 HEATHER MCTEER TONEY, Panel 1 Chair; and

3 Regional Administrator, Region 4, EPA

4 JULIA MILLER, Energy and Efficiency Expert,

5 Office of Air and Radiation, EPA

6 JEB STENHOUSE, Program Manager, 

7 Clear Air Markets Division, Office of 

8 Air and Radiation, EPA

9

10 EPA PANEL 2:

11 BEVERLY BANISTER, Panel 2 Chair; and Director,

12 Air, Pesticides, and Toxics Management

13 Division, Region 4, EPA

14 JULIA MILLER, Energy and Efficiency Expert,

15 Office of Air and Radiation, EPA

16 JEB STENHOUSE, Program Manager, 

17 Clear Air Markets Division, Office of 

18 Air and Radiation, EPA

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1 EPA PANEL 3:

2 BEVERLY BANISTER, Panel 3 Chair; and Director,

3 Air, Pesticides, and Toxics Management 

4 Division, Region 4, EPA

5 JEANEANNE GETTLE, Deputy Director, 

6 Air, Pesticides, and Toxics Management 

7 Division, Region 4, EPA

8 JEB STENHOUSE, Program Manager, 

9 Clear Air Markets Division, Office of 

10 Air and Radiation, EPA

11

12 EPA PANEL 4:

13 BEVERLY BANISTER, Panel 4 Chair; and Director,

14 Air, Pesticides, and Toxics Management

15 Division, Region 4, EPA

16 JULIA MILLER, Energy and Efficiency Expert,

17 Office of Air and Radiation, EPA

18 DARRYL WEATHERHEAD, Managing Economist, EPA

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1 C O N T E N T S

2 PAGE

3 MORNING SESSION

4 VONDA BROWN, Habersham County EMC 18

5 GEORGE CLARK, Manufacture Alabama 20

6 MARK LOUGHMAN, Mississippi Power Company 23

7 LARRY ROOKS, Local 84, International 

8 Brotherhood of Electrical Workers (IBEW) 27

9 NINA DUTTON, Environmental epidemiology

10 Researcher, Atlanta 31

11 LAUREN POE, Gainesville Regional Utilities,

12 Florida 36

13 JOHN DUMAS, Southern Rivers Energy 43

14 JAMES FRAUEN, Seminole Electric Cooperative 48

15 BRIAN THOMPSON, IBEW 53

16 JIM VICK, Gulf Power Company 58

17 MATT BOWDEN, Alabama Power Company 63

18 CRAIG STINE, Resident of South Carolina 67

19 ROY TAYLOR, Quaker Earthcare Witness 73

20 DAVID LAMBERT, Withlacoochee River 

21 Electric Cooperative 79

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1 C O N T E N T S (continued)

2 PAGE

3 MORNING SESSION (continued)

4 JEFF BOWMAN, South Mississippi Electric 

5 Power Association 86

6 ROMANOUS DOTSON, Altamaha EMC 91

7 DALE KEMMERICK, Georgia EPD Air 

8 Protection Branch 96

9 RANDY HILL, Planters Electric Membership

10 Corporation 102

11 JUANITA ROARK, Resident of Georgia 106

12 KATHERINE MITCHELL, Resident of Georgia 112

13 JENAH ZWEIG, Southeast Energy Efficiency 

14 Alliance 116

15 BILL VERNER, Georgia Electric Membership 

16 Corporation 122

17 RAY TIDWELL, Retired coal miner, 

18 United Mine Workers, Local 9511 130

19 WALTER PARKER 133

20 VERNON BANKSTON, Retired coal miner 136

21 MAKARA RUMLEY, GreenLaw 141

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1 C O N T E N T S (continued)

2 PAGE

3 MORNING SESSION (continued)

4 VICKY SULLIVAN, American Coalition for 

5 Clean Coal Electricity 145

6 JACQUELINE PATTERSON 150

7

8 AFTERNOON SESSION

9 STEPHEN WILLIS, Georgia Sierra Club 163

10 BEN MYERS, International Brotherhood of 

11 Electrical Workers, Local 613 167

12 MARIE ROBINSON-METZE 172

13 JENNA GARLAND, Sierra Club 174

14 JONI JENKINS, Kentucky House District 44 180

15 DAVID MUHLY, Sierra Club 184

16 MARK DOUGLAS, Georgia Interfaith 

17 Power and Light 191

18 JAMES H. MCLEMORE, Alabama Industrial 

19 Energy Consumers (AIEC) 195

20 BEN JOHNSON, Resident of Georgia 201

21 ESTEFANI IGNACIO, Environment Georgia 206

22 AMBER KELLER 209

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1 C O N T E N T S (continued)

2 PAGE

3 AFTERNOON SESSION (continued)

4 DJUAN COLEON, Project Urban Renewable 

5 Energy (PURE) 210

6 ELIZABETH MARKS, Resident of Georgia 215

7 THOMAS BEUSSE, Georgia Chemistry Council 219

8 MARK GADDY, Berkeley Electric Cooperative 224

9 EDDIE PLOWDEN, Berkeley Electric Cooperative 229

10 EVAN SWAAK, Student 236

11 RUDI NAVARRA, Resident of Florida 239

12 COLLEEN KIERNAN, Sierra Club, Georgia Chapter 242

13 ALBERT ROESEL, Retiree 248

14 TANISHA THOMAS 251

15 LIZ PETERSON 253

16 LUCY GRADY, Daughter of Liz Peterson 256

17 BEN GRADY, Son of Liz Peterson 259

18

19 EVENING SESSION

20 CHIP BEEKER, Public Service Commission

21 Of Alabama, Place 2 270

22 PAUL REYNOLDS, Alabama Free Market Alliance 278

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1 C O N T E N T S (continued)

2 PAGE

3 EVENING SESSION (continued)

4 DAN FRIEDMAN, Resident of Georgia 283

5 GRETCHEN ELSNER, Resident of Georgia 287

6 RICH RUSK, Oconee River Chapter of Trout 

7 Unlimited and Georgia Climate Change 

8 Coalition 293

9 JENNIFER PRAMUK, Resident of Georgia 299

10 SAMUEL W. ELLIOTT 302

11 TERRY WELSHER 306

12 BONNI DEMARCO, Pharmacist 313

13 DR. YOMI NOIBI, Environmental Community

14 Action 317

15 SUSAN BERRYMAN RODRIGUEZ, Mothers & Others

16 For Clean Air 321

17 RODNEY J. RUSSELL, Atlanta Chapter,

18 American Association of Blacks in Energy 325

19 BRANDON SUTTON, Resident of Georgia 330

20 JOY KRAMER 334

21 EDWARD PARADIS 337

22 BECKY WEST PETTIS 342

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1 C O N T E N T S (continued)

2 PAGE

3 EVENING SESSION (continued)

4 LAUREN SMITH, Alliance for Climate 

5 Education's Youth Leadership Network 

6 of Atlanta 345

7 DR. JALAL ZUBERI, Associate Professor of 

8 Clinical Pediatrics at Morehouse 

9 School of Medicine 349

10 JIM REEFE 355

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1 P R O C E E D I N G S

2 MORNING SESSION

3 MS. TONEY: Good morning, everyone, and 

4 thank you for coming and joining us today on our 

5 second day of hearings on the proposed carbon 

6 pollution plan and proposed carbon pollution 

7 standards.

8 My name is Heather McTeer Toney. I am 

9 the Regional Administrator here in the Southeast 

10 Region for Atlanta, Georgia, and I want to say 

11 welcome to each and every one of you, and thank 

12 you for coming, and traveling, and sharing your 

13 comments with us here today.

14 Joining me on this panel this morning are 

15 Julia Miller -- she's an energy and efficiency 

16 expert for the Office of Air and Radiation -- and 

17 also Jeb Stenhouse, who is Program Manager of the 

18 Clear Air Markets Division in the Office of Air 

19 and Radiation. They're both joining us from 

20 Washington today, so we appreciate their 

21 participation. 

22 And then, midway in this session, we'll 

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1 do a little change-out, and we'll have Beverly 

2 Banister, who is our Region 4 Director of Air, 

3 Pesticides, and Toxics Management Division. She 

4 will be coming and joining the panel at 10 a.m. 

5 So you've got a wonderful panel of experts that 

6 are here to listen to your comments today, and 

7 we're very, very pleased to have you.

8 Just as a little background information 

9 before we get started, EPA announced these 

10 proposed rules in June of 2014. Power plants are 

11 the largest source of carbon pollution in the 

12 U.S., accounting for roughly one-third of all the 

13 domestic greenhouse gas emissions. 

14 The first rule that EPA is proposing is 

15 the EPA's proposed Clean Power Plan for existing 

16 power plants. This proposal consists of two main 

17 parts: state-specific goals to lower carbon 

18 pollution from power plants and guidelines to 

19 help states develop their plans for meeting the 

20 goals. This proposal gives states flexibility in 

21 determining how to meet their goals. States will 

22 choose what goes into the plans, that show how 

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1 they will achieve the needed reductions and meet 

2 their goals by 2030.

3 The second rule is EPA's proposed rule to 

4 address carbon dioxide emissions from modified 

5 and reconstructed power plants. This rule would 

6 set emission limits for two groups of power 

7 plants: those that make physical or operational 

8 changes that increase the plant's maximum 

9 achievable hourly rate of emissions, and those 

10 that replace components to such an extent that 

11 the new components exceed 50 percent of the 

12 capital costs of an entirely new comparable 

13 facility.

14 Now, if you would like information or 

15 more details on these proposed rules, please see 

16 the EPA desk right out in the front foyer. There 

17 are many materials there for you to pick up and 

18 read, and we really encourage you to go by and 

19 pick up more materials and information on the 

20 proposed rules.

21 Also, let me remind you that -- please 

22 sign at the EPA desk. We want to make sure that 

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1 you register with us and we have a good account 

2 of everyone who has joined us here this morning.

3 Now, today's hearings are part of a 

4 larger group of hearings. There are four that 

5 are taking place across the United States, one, 

6 of course, here in Atlanta, Georgia; Washington, 

7 D.C.; Denver, Colorado; and Pittsburgh, 

8 Pennsylvania.

9 We really appreciate everyone who has 

10 traveled from near and far to be with us, to 

11 share your comments, and for that reason your 

12 comments are extremely important and critical, 

13 and we want to make sure that we have the 

14 opportunity to hear everyone fairly, evenly, and 

15 that all comments are made part of the record. 

16 We have a number of people who have signed up to 

17 speak at our hearings, and we want to hear from 

18 each and every one of you. 

19 So before we get started, let's go 

20 through just a few housekeeping rules of how we 

21 will proceed today. Again, first, please make 

22 sure that if you are going to speak that you have 

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1 checked in at the registration desk, and they 

2 have your name, and that they will bring those 

3 names to us so that we call them in order. Let 

4 them know if you have signed up, either by phone 

5 or electronically, to make sure that we have your 

6 name on the list and that you have arrived.

7 Second of all, I believe we have two 

8 rooms today? Okay. Second note is that you want 

9 to make sure that you're in the correct room. If 

10 you're a speaker, you should have received a room 

11 letter, A or B. We are in Room A, and if you may 

12 be in Room B, this would be a good time to check 

13 and make sure you're in the correct place, and if 

14 you need to switch, we won't hold that against 

15 you, if you need to go to the other room. So 

16 make sure that you're in the correct place.

17 The hearings will proceed as follows. I 

18 will call two names up to our speaking area, and

19 when your name is called, please come to the 

20 tables here at the front of the room. If you 

21 need assistance in coming to the tables, we do 

22 have staff here available to assist you, to make 

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1 this access as easy as possible. 

2 When I call your name, please state your 

3 name for the record, and spell it for us, please, 

4 to make sure that we have that correct. We want 

5 to ensure that the court reporter can clearly 

6 transcribe all of your comments. They're going 

7 to be included in the comments on the proposed 

8 rules, so this is very important.

9 Each speaker will have 5 minutes to give 

10 comments. We have a nice light to help you, to 

11 remind you of your time limit. When it's on 

12 green, you have approximately 4 minutes. The 

13 green light will then start to flash and turn to

14 yellow, which will let you know that you have 1 

15 minute left, and when it turns to red, that lets 

16 you know that your time has winded to an end, and 

17 it will buzz. At that point, we will end the 

18 comments. However, if you have additional 

19 comments that you were unable to make, or would 

20 like to add, we do have information and comment 

21 cards at our registration desk. Please make sure 

22 that you go and you add those additional 

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1 comments, and they can also be included as part 

2 of this record.

3 If you have written comments that you 

4 have brought with you, as well, that you would 

5 like to have included as a part of the record, 

6 you may deliver those to the registration desk 

7 and they will also be included.

8 We are very, very committed to making 

9 sure that all of your comments are included in 

10 the record and that we are listening to everyone, 

11 and all of the information that you have to share 

12 with us. So, again, please be reminded that our 

13 comment period is open until October 16th, so 

14 there is plenty of time to make comments. Even 

15 if you hear something today and you think of 

16 something today, you still have an opportunity to 

17 make comments to the record, and you can do that 

18 again with the cards here, or by signing up to 

19 speak.

20 Now, as a panel, we are here only to 

21 listen. We may ask you a clarifying question. 

22 That will not take away from your time, but it's 

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1 simply to clarify maybe something that you have 

2 said, or to ensure that we have a correct 

3 spelling, but those are the only questions that 

4 we may have, or answers that we may have for you, 

5 as a panel, today.

6 Now, we have enjoyed, as a part of our 

7 hearings here in Atlanta, Georgia, wonderful 

8 Southern hospitality, and everyone has been 

9 extremely kind in listening to all of the 

10 statements fairly and evenly. I know that today 

11 it will continue in the same fashion, and we 

12 greatly appreciate that, because it gives 

13 fairness to each and every speaker, and allows 

14 them the opportunity to share their comments and 

15 make sure that they are part of the proposed 

16 rule.

17 So, with that, we're going to go ahead 

18 and get started. If you have any additional 

19 questions, we do have EPA staff that's more than 

20 willing to help you and assist you, and we're 

21 going to go ahead. Everybody ready to go? All 

22 right.

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1 Our first speakers this morning are Vonda 

2 Brown and George Clark. Vonda Brown and George 

3 Clark. Good morning, Ms. Brown. You may begin.

4 MS. BROWN: Well, good morning. My name 

5 is Vonda Brown, and a consumer member of the 

6 Habersham EMC. Vonda Brown, V-o-n-d-a. I'm a 

7 Habersham County native and I live and work in 

8 Clarksville, Georgia, where I'm the proud mother 

9 of three beautiful children, ages 17, 14, and 7. 

10 I'm also locally employed by a financial 

11 institution where I'm the compliance officer and 

12 internal audit. 

13 In my personal and professional life, I 

14 see the reality of economic conditions in my 

15 community on a daily basis. I traveled over 2 

16 hours to be here today, to speak before you, 

17 because I'm very concerned about the increase in 

18 my power bill if these regulations are adopted. 

19 In my part of Georgia, family budgets are 

20 stretched thin. The families I know in Habersham 

21 County cannot afford an increase in energy costs 

22 that will result from this energy plan. 

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1 My family has been involved with the EMC 

2 from the very beginning of bringing power to our 

3 area. I know my cooperative carefully considers 

4 all energy options to keep my power bill as low 

5 as possible. But this proposal will increase 

6 costs without any significant impact on carbon 

7 emissions or climate change. This is truly all 

8 pain with no gain.

9 I'm also terrified at the prospect of 

10 threatening American jobs, by nearly eliminating 

11 coal from the generation mix. As power plants 

12 begin to close, they could leave empty towns in 

13 their wake. American energy is one of the main 

14 drivers for our economy, and our economy simply 

15 cannot afford to add thousands of Americans to 

16 the unemployment list. I'm here today, a 

17 citizen, a voter, a taxpayer, to ask you to 

18 withdraw this proposal and consider a more 

19 common-sense approach that will be a true all-of20 the-above energy strategy.

21 I thank you for your time and the 

22 opportunity to speak before you today.

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1 MS. TONEY: Thank you. Mr. Clark.

2 MR. CLARK: I don't know how powerful 

3 this mic is. I hope you can hear me. Good 

4 morning. My name is George Clark, G-e-o-r-g-e 

5 C-l-a-r-k. I am President of Manufacture 

6 Alabama. Manufacture Alabama is a trade 

7 association that represents manufacturers. We 

8 also have partners who are our vendors and 

9 suppliers. Those are the companies that help run 

10 our factories and perform maintenance and 

11 construction work, and environmental services, 

12 and other types of services, as well. And we are 

13 located in Montgomery, Alabama.

14 Manufacture Alabama represents some of 

15 the major known manufacturers in the United 

16 States, basically all of whom are engaged in what 

17 is commonly known as advanced manufacturing. 

18 Advanced manufacturing are those particular 

19 manufacturing jobs that are high-demand jobs, 

20 they are highly paid jobs, and they require high 

21 developed skills, and one of the characteristics 

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1 changing, and the skills are ever-changing to 

2 meet global competition. 

3 We are involved in global competition. We 

4 compete against our own selves sometimes, for 

5 capital investment, and that means that Alabama 

6 may compete against Arkansas for one particular 

7 corporation's capital investment, and we are 

8 engaged in a highly competitive arena.

9 And I am here, not today to speak out for 

10 those corporations. These are corporations that 

11 you know of and you have heard of. I'm here 

12 today to speak out on behalf of our employees and 

13 the employees of our vendors and suppliers that 

14 make us successful in what we do, and that's 

15 making things in Alabama, and making things in 

16 the United States. Our employees are well paid. 

17 Typically, they're going to be making over 

18 $100,000 a year, marvelous benefit packages. 

19 They are the backbone of Alabama's economy. 

20 Across the nation, those that are engaged in 

21 advanced manufacturing are the backbone of the 

22 United States of America. We help create the 

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1 middle class of the United States of America. 

2 My concern is that these proposed rules 

3 and regulations, while doing very little in terms 

4 of environmental protection, global warming, 

5 climate change, are going to have a massive 

6 impact on the survivability and sustainability of 

7 the middle class of Alabama, and in the larger 

8 measure, the middle class of the United States of 

9 America.

10 We have a slogan, a branding, in the 

11 state of Alabama, and I have a lapel pin on, 

12 which says "Made in Alabama." If these 

13 regulations go into effect, we can change that to 

14 "Made in China." We will start exporting jobs 

15 from Alabama and from the United States by the 

16 tens of thousands, and would urge EPA to 

17 reconsider these proposals, in light of the 

18 damage it could do to our economy, and especially 

19 to the middle class of the United States.

20 Thank you so much.

21 MS. TONEY: Thank you, and thank you 

22 both. Our next speakers are Mark Loughman and 

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1 Larry Rooks, and if I have mispronounced that, 

2 please let me know. Is it Lowman or Lawman? 

3 Loafman? Got it. Loafman. We'll begin with Mr. 

4 Loughman.

5 MR. LOUGHMAN: Thank you very much. My 

6 name is Mark Loughman. That's M-a-r-k L-o-u-g-h7 m-a-n. I am the Director of Environmental 

8 Affairs at Mississippi Power Company. We are a 

9 subsidiary of Southern Company, and we provide 

10 safe, clean, reliable, and affordable power to 

11 nearly 200,000 customers in 23 southeastern 

12 Mississippi counties.

13 I would like to make it clear that we 

14 also want clean air and a healthy environment for 

15 our customers and families. Our commitment is 

16 long-standing, and our responsibility is evident 

17 in the work that we've already done to make the 

18 air, land, and water cleaner in our state. Our 

19 investments in pollution control over the past 25 

20 years have significantly reduced emissions, while 

21 our electricity generation has grown by more than 

22 50 percent. And when it comes to carbon 

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1 emissions, we are not just talking about the 

2 issue; we are actually building the world's first 

3 clean coal technology plant in Kemper County, 

4 Mississippi.

5 Today I would like to talk about three 

6 points about the proposal. Number one, the EPA's 

7 guidelines are a vast overreach of the authority 

8 granted under the Clean Air Act. Number two, the 

9 aggressive assumptions used to develop the state 

10 targets would strand generating assets, limit our 

11 ability to operate in a flexible manner, and 

12 force the price of electricity to rise. And 

13 number three, the proposal would essentially 

14 penalize Mississippi Power and the state of 

15 Mississippi for leading the development of full16 scale carbon capture and storage technology.

17 The Clean Power Plan proposal, while 

18 creative in name, goes far beyond the authority 

19 provided under Section 111(d) of the Clean Air 

20 Act. EPA is limited to developing emissions 

21 guidelines for existing power plants, based upon 

22 the best system of emission reductions, as 

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1 adequately demonstrated inside the fence of the 

2 power plant. 

3 In unprecedented fashion, the proposal 

4 has been developed using four building blocks 

5 that reach far beyond the fence line, and would 

6 force our state to redesign our entire 

7 electricity system, with very limited options. 

8 And make no doubt about it -- the electric rates 

9 will rise if the rule is finalized as proposed. 

10 Mississippi customers simply can't afford that.

11 The overly aggressive assumptions used by 

12 EPA lead to absurd results, even by your own 

13 analysis. Re-dispatching our natural gas, 

14 combined cycle fleet of 70 percent, would force 

15 us to shut down the state's existing coal fleet. 

16 This would severely restrict our fuel diversity 

17 and leave our customers at the mercy of ever18 volatile natural gas prices. This simply cannot 

19 be considered good policy.

20 Specifically, for our company, it would 

21 force the retirement of the two large coal units 

22 at Plant Daniel in Jackson County, and it's 

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1 important to remind you that we are currently 

2 investing $660 million in those units to comply 

3 with the recently finalized mercury rules. 

4 Stranding these assets, as you're proposing to 

5 do, would only further increase the cost for our 

6 customers.

7 Finally, as I mentioned, Mississippi 

8 Power is currently building the nation's first 

9 integrated gasification combined cycle project 

10 with carbon capture and storage in Kemper County. 

11 We'll be using abundant Mississippi lignite fuel 

12 and technology developed by Southern Company, and 

13 we will capture at least 65 percent of the carbon 

14 dioxide produced. The CO2 will then be used to 

15 extract another vital U.S. natural resource, oil.

16 We began construction on this project 

17 about 4 years ago. We expect to be in commercial 

18 operations next year. Rather than reward our 

19 research and development efforts, EPA's proposing 

20 a target more stringent than even this state-of21 the-art technology could achieve. If EPA 

22 finalizes the guidelines as proposed, it will 

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1 discourage additional technology, innovation, and 

2 development, and the message from EPA seems clear 

3 -- it does not pay to plan ahead. If you take 

4 early action, you will be forced to carry an even 

5 greater burden.

6 Mississippi Power appreciates this 

7 opportunity to comment, and we would ask that EPA 

8 go back to the drawing board and re-propose 

9 guidelines that are consistent with the Clean Air 

10 Act, that are based upon adequately demonstrated, 

11 inside-the-fence technology, and that recognize 

12 Mississippi's individual needs and the state's 

13 existing authority.

14 Thank you.

15 MS. TONEY: Thank you. Mr. Rooks.

16 MR. ROOKS: My name is Larry Rooks, R-o17 o-k-s, like the card game. I'm the business 

18 manager for Local 84, International Brotherhood 

19 of Electrical Workers. I'll spell that out since 

20 most folks may not know what that is. We 

21 represent 3,000 members in the state of Georgia. 

22 I worked for Georgia Power Company 42 

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1 years, and one reason why I'm glad to get to talk 

2 here today, I'm probably one of the few that has 

3 ever operated these units that they're talking 

4 about retiring. And the way the law reads right 

5 now is owners and/or operators can be fined or go 

6 to jail, so we always had that hanging over our 

7 heads, so we done a good job. And they would 

8 turn around, and the next thing you know, our 

9 plant's being closed anyway.

10 When we seen it's a 2015 deadline, we 

11 thought that was over with, so we're in the 

12 middle of a roll, in our union ranks, with 

13 Georgia Power Company, of relocating employees 

14 throughout the state, to the existing plants 

15 that's going to the state, and with these new 

16 guideline rules, they may be out of business, at 

17 the other coal plants.

18 The environmental limits that are in 

19 place now are obtainable, but the ones that we 

20 see, in this new law, are not, where the 

21 technology that's in place, from operating these 

22 units for 38 years, so I didn't just come in here 

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1 saying I've operated a unit a day or two. I made 

2 a living. I'll be 61 years old in September, so 

3 I've been doing this since I was 18 years old. So 

4 when they say that we're meeting the guidelines, 

5 we are, because we are held to those standards. 

6 And the environment, we're all for clean 

7 air and clean water. I've got a brand new 

8 grandbaby that was just born Saturday. I've 

9 looked for her a bright future, but I wanted also 

10 something that her parents can afford to provide 

11 for her. So if they're going to have to give a 

12 fortune for electricity, it's going to be hard 

13 for them to do, with even the two of them 

14 working.

15 And the local area around Plant Yates, a 

16 lot of the businesses are going to be closing up 

17 because they had depended on that plant, even 

18 though they're going to keep two units and 

19 convert them over to natural gas. Still, a lot 

20 of them now are closing up, because there's not 

21 enough working there to make it worth their while 

22 to stay open. So this is communities, it's going 

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1 to be at Harllee Branch at Milledgeville, 

2 Eatonton area, and Albany, and these are areas in 

3 the state where these plants are closing, and 

4 it's going to be an impact on the whole 

5 community.

6 As the business manager for our Local, I 

7 hear about the problems that our members are 

8 having with relocation, and the job they've done 

9 for the power company for years, and it's sort of 

10 a slap in the face that we have tried everything, 

11 every environmental law that's come about, and 

12 met those, usually a year ahead of time, most of 

13 the time. So it's not like Georgia Power and our 

14 employees don't care about the clean air or 

15 meeting the guidelines. You've got to meet them 

16 ahead. You can't wait until the last minute. 

17 So we think that these rules are way 

18 beyond what's there in place now. It's affected 

19 my members, so I appreciate the opportunity to 

20 get to speak for them today. 

21 Thank you.

22 MS. TONEY: Thank you. Mr. Rooks, just a 

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1 clarifying question. You said IBEW.

2 MR. ROOKS: International Brotherhood of 

3 Electrical Workers.

4 MS. TONEY: Okay. I just wanted to make 

5 sure I had it correct, of Georgia. Okay. Thank 

6 you, sir.

7 MR. ROOKS: Yes. Local 84.

8 MS. TONEY: Our next speakers will be 

9 Nina Dutton and Lauren Poe. We'll begin with 

10 Nina Dutton.

11 MS. DUTTON: Good morning. My name is 

12 Nina Dutton, N-i-n-a D-u-t-t-o-n. I live in 

13 Atlanta and work in environmental epidemiology 

14 research. Thank you all for the opportunity to 

15 speak today, but while I am very glad to have 

16 this opportunity, it should not be necessary to 

17 say what I'm going to say today, because none of 

18 this is new or revolutionary. 

19 There is an overwhelming body of evidence 

20 to support that greenhouse gases emitted through 

21 human activity are driving the increase in global 

22 atmospheric temperature that is disrupting our 

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1 climate. My colleagues in public health research 

2 have conducted study after study to examine the 

3 impacts of climate disruption on health, 

4 projecting increases in rates of heat-related 

5 deaths and respiratory symptoms, the spread of 

6 vector-borne disease to new regions, and losses 

7 of lives and livelihoods to flooding, in some 

8 places, and unchecked drought or fire in others, 

9 for example. 

10 My colleagues in public health practice,

11 who work directly in communities around the 

12 world, have seen such impacts already. You've 

13 heard and will hear from people who have 

14 personally experienced some of these effects. 

15 I'm not one of these people. Sure, we're all 

16 downstream from somewhere. There's mercury in 

17 fish I've eaten and particulates in the air I 

18 breath, but I haven't experienced the effects of 

19 pollution from combustion of fossil fuels or 

20 climate disruption, as dramatically as the child 

21 with asthma whose attacks are triggered by air 

22 pollution, or the elder who suffers during a heat 

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1 wave, or the coastal resident whose home and life 

2 are threatened by higher storm surges or whose 

3 water supply is tainted by salt water intrusion, 

4 or the farm whose crops are no longer suited to 

5 the local climate. 

6 I haven't mined for a living. I haven't 

7 had to live downhill from a coal ash pond or next 

8 to a fracking field. I can't speak for those 

9 people directly, but I do have empathy for them. 

10 That's why I care enough to be here. Their 

11 concerns must be considered and I call on the 

12 EPA, specifically, among society as a whole, to 

13 respond to the needs of those bearing the brunt 

14 of the effects of pollution and climate 

15 disruption.

16 Again, none of this evidence is new and 

17 none of these needs are new. They just keep 

18 accumulating. I shouldn't have to be here right 

19 now to fight for a federal rule to reduce carbon 

20 pollution from power plants, but in the absence 

21 of such a rule, the energy industry has shown a 

22 dogged unwillingness to change sufficiently. 

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1 Georgia Power still operates the top and third2 most polluting power plants in the country, and 

3 Southern Company persists as the worst such 

4 carbon polluter in the U.S., despite ample 

5 potential for energy efficiency and renewable 

6 energy resources in the state and region. 

7 So, while I do appreciate the EPA's 

8 efforts in finally being able to propose this 

9 Clean Power Plan as a move in the direction we 

10 must take, there is more that must be done, with 

11 remaining priorities. The first is bigger carbon 

12 pollution reductions. We can and should work 

13 toward a much larger emission reduction goal, 

14 such as 40 percent reductions below 2005 levels 

15 by 2020. 

16 The alternative option of a 5-year period 

17 for compliance time with a less stringent set of 

18 CO2 emission performance levels is the opposite 

19 of what needs to be done in the interest of the 

20 American people and the global population. 

21 Compliance can happen within the time period 

22 proposed in the Clear Power Plan, and the plan 

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1 should incorporate the most stringent carbon 

2 pollution reductions as are feasible within the 

3 existing proposed compliance time period.

4 The second priority is -- well, all these 

5 are priorities. The second point is renewables 

6 and energy efficiency. As it stands, the Clean 

7 Power Plan allows for aging coal fleets to be 

8 sustained, allows nuclear plants to be considered 

9 cost-effective investments worth the safety risks 

10 to the public, and does not address methane 

11 emissions from transport and use of natural gas. 

12 These allowance should not be made for coal and 

13 nuclear because they divert funds from creating 

14 sustainable systems.

15 Also, energy efficiency should be a 

16 mandated building block, not just one available 

17 option. States should meet the new standards 

18 through renewable energy and efficiency because 

19 this is the fastest, cleanest, and most cost20 effective path. States can meet the targets 

21 without increasing use of dirty and dangerous 

22 energy sources like nuclear or natural gas. As 

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1 you know, this can all be done while decreasing 

2 overall costs to customers and the public.

3 We must ensure that effective communities 

4 are engaged throughout the process and that 

5 public resources are available to help workers 

6 and communities as they make the transition to a 

7 clean energy economy. You've heard countless 

8 times about what we owe to future generations, 

9 but we are here now and climate disruption is 

10 here now. 

11 I want to build my own future in a world 

12 in which sustainability is a baseline assumption 

13 for how society operates, not an impractical 

14 burden. People, young and old, around the world 

15 share this dream. Please take bold action now on 

16 carbon pollution reduction, to help make that 

17 dream a reality. 

18 Thank you.

19 MS. TONEY: Thank you. Mr. Poe.

20 MR. POE: Good morning. My name is 

21 Lauren Poe. I am a city commissioner with the 

22 City of Gainesville in Gainesville, Florida, and 

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1 the testimony I'm about to deliver was 

2 unanimously approved by the entire City 

3 Commission, which also serves as the governing 

4 board for Gainesville Regional Utilities, a 

5 municipally owned utility.

6 MS. TONEY: Mr. Poe, could you spell your 

7 name for the record?

8 MR. POE: Yes. L-a-u-r-e-n P-o-e. 

9 Gainesville Regional Utilities is a multi-service 

10 utility owned by the City of Gainesville, 

11 Florida. GRU is the fifth-largest municipal 

12 utility in Florida. Our combined services make 

13 us the most comprehensive utility service 

14 provider in the state. We serve approximately 

15 90,000 retail and wholesale customers in 

16 Gainesville and surrounding areas, offering 

17 electric, natural gas, water, wastewater, and 

18 telecommunications services. 

19 Over the last decade, the City of 

20 Gainesville GRU has done exactly what we believe 

21 the EPA's Clean Power Rule intends to accomplish 

22 -- greatly reduced carbon dioxide emissions. We 

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1 set a goal of reducing CO2 emissions to 7 percent 

2 below the 1990 values by the end of 2013, and, 

3 with a concerted effort, exceeded this goal with 

4 a 13 percent reduction by the end of 2012. 

5 We accomplished these reductions through 

6 a variety of measures, including adding renewable 

7 energy to our generation mix, converting more 

8 natural gas, and implementing aggressive energy 

9 conservation programs since 2005. Our energy 

10 conservation programs alone have resulted in the 

11 reduction of 26 megawatts of demand and 131,000 

12 megawatt-hours of energy annually. 

13 In fact, electricity consumption by GRU's 

14 customers was the same in 2013 as it was in 2000. 

15 While some of this can be attributed to factors 

16 such as the sluggish economy, new federal 

17 appliance standards, and updated building codes, 

18 our efforts, combined with our customers' 

19 efforts, have helped us to make huge reductions 

20 in energy use. This has not been without a cost 

21 to our customers. GRU currently has the highest 

22 electric rates in the state of Florida, in part 

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1 due to our actions taken to reduce CO2. 

2 With these factors, in mind, these are 

3 two primary points we would like to offer for 

4 consideration in the proposed CO2 rulemaking. 

5 First, the proposed rule does not give credit for 

6 significant investments made by utilities for 

7 renewable energy and energy efficiency programs 

8 to reduce greenhouse gas CO2 prior to 2012. 

9 We believe that EPA should allow states 

10 to incorporate emission reductions made by 

11 electric systems prior to the effective baseline 

12 of 2012. As noted above, GRU has implemented 

13 significant renewable energy programs and 

14 projects, and invested $28 million in energy 

15 efficiency. 

16 We were the first utility in the United 

17 States to offer a solar feed-in tariff, which 

18 dramatically stimulated the construction of the 

19 solar energy in our community. We created 

20 conservation programs which include residential 

21 duct sealing and attic insulation rebate 

22 programs. We incorporated landfill gas to energy 

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1 projects into our generation portfolio, and we 

2 were the first utility east of the Mississippi 

3 River to build and operate a natural gas-fired 

4 combined heat and power facility with a thermal 

5 efficiency greater than 70 percent.

6 In prior years, GRU's electric generation 

7 was primarily fossil fuel-based with non-fossil 

8 generation representing less than 5 percent of 

9 our energy supply. However, in late 2013, we 

10 added 100 megawatts of biomass energy to our 

11 electric generating system. This addition, along 

12 with an aggressive solar energy program that has 

13 added approximately 16 megawatts of photovoltaic 

14 solar capacity to our system, will allow us to 

15 meet nearly 34 percent of our customer energy 

16 needs with renewable generation. As proposed, 

17 the existing source performance standard 

18 penalized GRU and other Florida utilities by not 

19 providing credit for early actions taken to 

20 reduce CO2. 

21 The proposed ESPS emission reduction 

22 goals depend on four compliance building blocks. 

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1 EPA's compliance building block number three 

2 assumes that about 10 percent of Florida's 

3 generation could come from renewable energy by 

4 2030. Since GRU already has roughly 34 percent 

5 of its energy coming from renewable energy, 

6 additional renewable energy is not a viable 

7 option for us. It should be noted that the 

8 proposed ESPS fails to recognize GRU's early 

9 action to adopt renewable energy.

10 EPA's compliance building block number 

11 four assumes that demand-side management can 

12 reduce electric demand by 10 percent by 2030. 

13 However, Florida and Gainesville are estimated to 

14 continue to experience significant population 

15 growth. EPA's ESPS does not appear to consider 

16 the state or locality's future growth. 

17 Additionally, GRU's aggressive historical 

18 conservation programs, along with providing 

19 natural gas service to end-use customers, have 

20 helped us to attain the lowest per capita 

21 electricity use in the state of Florida. Failure 

22 to recognize early reduction sends the wrong 

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1 public policy message. Early voluntary actions 

2 must be considered for compliance purposes and 

3 EPA's ESPS guidelines to the states and 

4 individual utilities, such as GRU. 

5 A second primary concern relates to the

6 potential for stranded costs from early 

7 investments our community made to comply with 

8 EPA's Clean Air Interstate Rule and Clean Air 

9 Mercury Rule. The ESPS's proposed depends 

10 primarily on load shifting from coal to natural 

11 gas generation for compliance. The shift in 

12 natural gas would likely result in premature 

13 closing of our coal unit. While EPA recognizes 

14 the increased cost to consumers with load 

15 shifting to natural gas, it does not consider the 

16 stranded cost for those units that still carry 

17 considerable debt.

18 MS. TONEY: Okay. Thank you, Mr. Poe. 

19 If you will make sure that you submit any 

20 additional comments that you have that we were 

21 not able to listen to today, please make sure 

22 that we have that written statement as a part of 

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1 our record.

2 MR. POE: Yes, ma'am.

3 MS. TONEY: I do have one question to 

4 clarify. You stated that this was a unanimously 

5 voted upon comment from -- is it from the City of 

6 Gainesville or from the Gainesville Utility GRU/

7 MR. POE: Yes, ma'am. They're one in the 

8 same. The Gainesville City Commission is the 

9 governing board for Gainesville Regional 

10 Utilities.

11 MS. TONEY: Okay. Thank you. Thank you 

12 both.

13 MR. POE: And, ma'am, who should I give 

14 the comments to?

15 [No audible response.]

16 MS. TONEY: Our next speakers are John 

17 Dumas and James Frauen. Mr. Frauen, did I 

18 pronounce that correct? Is it Frauen? Okay. 

19 We'll begin with Mr. Dumas.

20 MR. DUMAS: Thank you. My name is John 

21 Dumas, J-o-h-n D-u-m-a-s. I'm a retired employee 

22 for Farm Service Agency with 32 years of service. 

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1 My last 26 years, I served as district director, 

2 where I served 24 counties and supervised them in 

3 the state of Georgia. I currently serve on the 

4 board of Directors with Southern Rivers Energy, 

5 located in Barnesville, Georgia. I've been on 

6 the board for 8 years.

7 I'm speaking on behalf of 14,694 members 

8 served by Southern Rivers Energy in nine member 

9 Georgia counties. Rural electric cooperatives 

10 like Southern Rivers Energy are a unique part of 

11 the electric utility industry. We are not-for12 profit, members-owned, members-governed utilities 

13 that provide electricity for 42 million people 

14 nationwide. Our responsibility, as directed by 

15 our consumer-owned, is to provide safe, reliable, 

16 and affordable power.

17 The EPA proposed ruling will increases 

18 costs, jeopardize reliability, and threaten 

19 thousands of American jobs, without any 

20 significant impact on global, CO2, emission, or 

21 climate change. The people we serve cannot 

22 afford higher electric prices. Electric co-ops 

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1 serve 93 percent of preexisting and poverty 

2 candidates in the country. Already, folks in the 

3 current American rural area, on average, earn a 

4 low income and generally pay more for energy. 

5 Fifty-three percent of Georgia 

6 households, or more than one-half of the families 

7 in the great nation of this state, spend an 

8 estimated average of 22 percent of their after9 tax income on energy. At Southern Rivers Energy, 

10 we see this every month, as many of our members 

11 continually struggle to pay their electricity 

12 bills. So additional cost with no benefit is 

13 simply unacceptable.

14 An upgrade to meet all of the things that 

15 are needed, our customers already are on the hook 

16 for long-term investment in coal plants, built 

17 and upgraded to meet their needs, including 

18 environmental compliance, upgrades to comply with 

19 current clear air rules. If this new EPA 

20 proposal is implemented, our consumers will have 

21 to pay more for new resources required to replace 

22 our coal plants, new gas generation, gas 

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1 pipelines, gas storage capacity, new renewable 

2 energy, and the transmission that it requires, 

3 and hundreds of billions of dollars in new energy 

4 efficiency investment.

5 As a cooperative, all of these costs will 

6 have to be borne by our members, many of whom, 

7 like I said earlier, simply cannot afford any 

8 increase in their cost of energy. We all take 

9 for granted that our phones will charge and the 

10 lights will come on when we flip the switch. The 

11 EPA proposal will well change that which we take 

12 for granted today.

13 Let me give you a current example. The 

14 very coal unit that could be shut down because of 

15 this rule was absolutely critical to keep the 

16 lights on during the polar vortex this year. 

17 This EPA ruling abandons the safety and wisdom of 

18 an all-of-the-above energy strategy.

19 I've worked with farmers all my life. 

20 Farmers generally have a lot of good, old21 fashioned common sense, like don't put all your 

22 eggs in one basket. This country must keep a 

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1 true, all-of-the-above fuel strategy that allows 

2 utilities to build and operate a diverse 

3 portfolio on energy resources that ensure that 

4 American families are not left in the dark. Once 

5 these coal plants are closed, there is no magic 

6 switch to flip and turn them back on in a time of 

7 need. 

8 In close, I leave you with three unique 

9 reminders about electric cooperatives. Electric 

10 cooperatives are private, not-for-profit 

11 businesses, and owned and governed by their 

12 consumer members. Roughly three-fourths of the 

13 nation's land mass is served by the cooperative 

14 electric alliance and three-fourths of Georgia 

15 land is, too. Ninety percent of our consumers 

16 are residential, which accounts for roughly two17 thirds of the energy sales. No other electric 

18 utility sector is dominated like this by 

19 residential market.

20 Again, I thank you for your time.

21 MR. TONEY: Thank you, Mr. Dumas. Mr. 

22 Frauen. Oh, give me just one moment. We want to 

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1 make sure that you have all of your time. You 

2 can proceed.

3 MR. FRAUEN: Okay. Yeah. My name is 

4 James Frauen. That's F-r-a-u-e-n. I'm the Vice 

5 President of Technical Services and Development 

6 at Seminole Electric Cooperative, located in 

7 Tampa, Florida. Seminole is one of the largest 

8 not-for-profit generation and transmission 

9 cooperatives in the country. Seminole provides 

10 reliable, competitively priced wholesale electric 

11 power to nine member distribution electric 

12 cooperatives. Approximately 1.4 million 

13 consumers and businesses, in parts of 42 Florida 

14 counties rely on Seminole's member distribution 

15 cooperatives for electricity.

16 On behalf of Seminole and it's not-for17 profit, member-owned electric cooperatives, we 

18 would like to express our sincere and utmost 

19 concern regarding the EPA's Clean Power Plan, 

20 aimed at regulating carbon dioxide emissions from 

21 existing power plants, specifically coal-fired 

22 facilities.

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1 Through the Clean Power Plan, the EPA is 

2 proposing that Florida reduce its overall carbon 

3 emissions by 38 percent. This value is based on 

4 EPA's 2012 data year versus the rural's headline 

5 year of 2005. EPA's calculations for Florida did 

6 not account for approximately 20 percent 

7 reduction in CO2 emissions that have already 

8 occurred in Florida since 2005. 

9 In order to achieve the 38 percent goal, 

10 the EPA calculates that Florida will have to 

11 reduce its coal-fired power generation by more 

12 than 90 percent. This is significant for 

13 Seminole. We generate more than 50 percent of 

14 the electricity our members need from our own 

15 coal-fired resources. 

16 Based on EPA's calculations contained in 

17 the proposed rule, Seminole's coal-fired 

18 generating facilities have been arbitrarily 

19 scheduled for retirement well before the end of 

20 their useful life, with no regard for economic 

21 hardship it will cause our members and consumers.

22 In 1978, the U.S. enacted the Power Plant 

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1 and Industrial Fuel Use Act, which restricted new 

2 power plants from using oil or natural gas for 

3 power generation, and encouraged the use of coal. 

4 Seminole's coal-fired facility came online in 

5 1984. Seminole built coal because it did not 

6 have another viable option. Now, the EPA is 

7 proposing to punish consumers who buy power from 

8 electric utilities that burn coal. Seminole, our 

9 members, and their member consumers should not be 

10 penalized for following the laws of our nation.

11 One of Seminole's highest priorities is 

12 to ensure that all generating resources are 

13 operated in an environmentally responsible 

14 manner. Seminole has invested more than $530 

15 million in environmental control technology and 

16 recycling practices, $260 million of which was 

17 placed in service less than 5 years ago.

18 To reduce emissions, and as part of 

19 Seminole's commitment to our communities, 

20 approximately 70 percent of the byproducts used 

21 at our coal facility are recycled for use in 

22 products that consumers use every day, including 

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1 wallboard and concrete. These continued 

2 investments have made Seminole's facility one of 

3 the cleanest coal-based power plants in the 

4 country.

5 The EPA must consider these expensive and 

6 extensive environmental controls installed to 

7 comply with other regulations implemented by the 

8 agency. Should the EPA's proposed carbon rule be 

9 finalized, these costly investments will become 

10 stranded assets, and Seminole's coal-fired power 

11 plants will be forced to closed, leaving 300 

12 hard-working, skilled employees without a job. 

13 Additionally, Seminole would have to 

14 build or purchase new generation to replace the 

15 electricity produced from its coal-fired 

16 facility. Such a drastic and sudden shift in 

17 Seminole's power portfolio will not only drive up 

18 the cost of electricity for our member 

19 cooperatives and their consumer members, but it 

20 could have sweeping, unintended consequences for 

21 our fragile but recovering work force and economy 

22 in Florida. 

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1 Seminole believes it makes good business 

2 sense to have a diversified generation portfolio 

3 in Florida that includes coal, natural gas, and 

4 renewable energy. Fuel diversity reduced 

5 exposure to changing market conditions, helps 

6 keep rates competitive, and it provides much7 needed flexibility during extreme weather events, 

8 such as hurricanes. Displacing existing coal9 fired power plants, as proposed by the EPA, will 

10 lead to increased cost for consumers, will 

11 jeopardize reliability, and will place undue 

12 stress on gas and transmission infrastructure 

13 within the state. 

14 Seminole believes the EPA's Clean Power 

15 Plan poses significant legal challenges that will 

16 need to be litigated if it's finally enacted. 

17 Seminole has serious concerns about the EPA's 

18 flawed approach to establish national energy 

19 policy through expensive, unnecessary government 

20 regulation. Seminole supports rational energy 

21 and environmental policy that does not harm the 

22 affordability or reliability of power production 

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1 and delivery.

2 Thank you.

3 MS. TONEY: Thank you, and thank you 

4 both. Our next speakers are James Vick and Brian 

5 Thompson. We'll begin with Mr. Vick. We'll 

6 begin with Mr. Vick.

7 MR. VICK: Good morning. My name is 

8 Brian Thompson and I'm an international 

9 representative with the International Brotherhood 

10 of Electric Workers, or the IBEW. I've spent 

11 more than 30 years of my career working in the 

12 utility industry as a power plant worker and 

13 mechanic for Florida Power and Light, and 

14 representing the thousands of workers who provide 

15 electricity to the customers at a state, local, 

16 and now at an international level, as an 

17 international representative.

18 On behalf of the IBEW members in the 

19 entire 5th District, which includes the states of 

20 Georgia, Florida, Alabama, Mississippi, and 

21 Louisiana, I thank you for this opportunity to 

22 testify today.

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1 The IBEW has a strong concern about the 

2 EPA's Clean Power Plan as proposed. The issue 

3 here is not just about clean air. The IBEW has 

4 supported policies that foster cleaner and 

5 greener environments. Within the IBEW 5th 

6 District, we have consistently supported good 

7 common sense policies and projects that have 

8 brought new technology and environmentally 

9 friendly power plants online, and support 

10 alternative energy sources such as nuclear, 

11 hydro, and renewables like wind and solar, as 

12 well, just to name a few.

13 However, the IBEW is very concerned about 

14 the EPA's Clean Power Plan impact on our members' 

15 jobs, the electricity affordability and 

16 reliability of the nation's power grids for the 

17 millions of Americans who use electricity as an 

18 essential lifeline.

19 The issue is how far do we go to achieve 

20 clean out without disrupting our entire economy, 

21 devastating an industry and the loss of hundreds 

22 of thousands of jobs that go along with it. The 

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1 EPA reports the Clean Air Plan will lead to the 

2 nationwide closure of anywhere from 41 to 49 

3 gigawatts of coal-fired generation by 2020. 

4 That's just six short years from now. This is 

5 the equivalent of approximately the entire state 

6 of Georgia losing energy. Due to the nature of 

7 the rule, the exact plant closures and gigawatts 

8 that will be shuttered will remain unknown and 

9 difficult to assess for quite some time. 

10 However, the EPA's own IPM assessment 

11 estimates at 48 plants, not all of them coal, 

12 will close within the IBEW's 5th District alone. 

13 Using those same assessments, this equates to the 

14 loss of 31,332 megawatts of electricity and 

15 approximately 6,300 jobs here in the five states 

16 that make up the 5th District, not to mention the 

17 thousands of ancillary jobs and services 

18 associated within the utility industry, as well.

19 History has shown that EPA assessments of 

20 the regulations are extremely optimistic and far 

21 from reality. When the EPA issued the Mercury 

22 and Air Toxics Standard, or MATS, the IBEW, along 

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1 with other organizations, spoke up, saying at 

2 least 56 gigawatts of generation would be lost. 

3 The EPA predicted only 4. As of today, a total 

4 of 60 gigawatts, and counting, have been lost 

5 because of the EPA's MATS rule. Our experience, 

6 as the IBEW, working with the system, told us 

7 that the EPA's estimates were far too low, and we 

8 believe today that the EPA's estimates at this 

9 time are also too low.

10 The closures from the Clean Power Plan, 

11 on top of the plant closures associated with the 

12 MATS rule, will result in 40 percent of the U.S. 

13 coal generation being retired forever, and 

14 despite what optimists may say, there is not 

15 enough natural gas capacity or power generated 

16 from renewables like wind and solar to make up 

17 that difference for decades to come.

18 This relatively fast and dramatic change 

19 in our nation's electric generation threatens the 

20 reliability of the U.S. generation grid, 

21 potentially making brownouts and blackouts 

22 commonplace. To compensate, local utilities will 

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1 purchase power at premium costs and pass those 

2 costs on to consumers, many of which cannot 

3 afford other added expenses to their household or 

4 business budgets. 

5 America needs a genuine bipartisan plan 

6 from Congress that grows our economy, renovates 

7 our aged infrastructure, and reduces carbon 

8 emissions, and sets a realistic plan for the 

9 future.

10 The IBEW does not believe the EPA's Clean 

11 Power Proposal is such a plan, and our 

12 recommendations include providing credit to 

13 states that have already reduced carbon emissions

14 from EPA targets; delaying implementation of the 

15 Clean Power Plan to allow states and utilities 

16 adequate time to implement compliance strategies 

17 and share those strategies with the public; and a 

18 global climate change plan that brings developing 

19 nations like China and India to the table. Both 

20 of those nations share the global emissions and 

21 are growing every year, and without global 

22 commitment to fighting climate change, the EPA's 

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1 regulations will not bring a net benefit.

2 Thank you.

3 MS. TONEY: Thank you. Thank you both, 

4 gentlemen. Our next speakers are Matthew Bowden 

5 and Craig Stine. Oh, I'm sorry. Forgive me. 

6 Mr. Vick.

7 MR. VICK: Thank you.

8 MS. TONEY: Okay. I apologize.

9 MR. VICK: That's okay. Good morning. I 

10 am Jim Vick, Environmental Affairs Director at 

11 Gulf Power Company. Gulf Power, a subsidiary of 

12 the Southern Company, is an investor on electric 

13 utility companies spanning northwest Florida, and 

14 serving more than 436,000 customers in 71 towns 

15 and communities. We are committed to providing 

16 clean, safe, reliable, and affordable electricity 

17 by maintaining a diverse generation fleet while 

18 protecting and preserving the environment.

19 Today, Gulf Power would like to share 

20 three significant concerns regarding EPA's Clean 

21 Power Plan proposal and its potential impact on 

22 our customers. First, EPA's proposal jeopardizes 

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1 the state of Florida's, and Gulf Power's ability 

2 to maintain fuel diversity, which is absolutely 

3 essential to continuing to provide our customers 

4 with reliable and affordable electricity.

5 Second, EPA's proposal will result in 

6 stranded investments in existing generation 

7 assets. Third, EPA has overstepped its authority 

8 and eroded the state of Florida's flexibility to 

9 create standards and compliance programs.

10 EPA's proposed guidelines would force the 

11 state of Florida to rely even more heavily on 

12 natural gas generation, thus putting more strain 

13 on its already limited natural gas pipeline 

14 infrastructure. Presently, there are only two 

15 main natural gas pipeline systems serving the 

16 state of Florida. An increased reliance creates 

17 reliability concerns due to unforeseen natural 

18 gas transportation issues, and is only 

19 exacerbated when coupled with the possible 

20 retirement of existing coal generation.

21 In setting Florida's goal, EPA assumes 

22 that the coal generation in the state will be 

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1 reduced by 91 percent. Furthermore, EPA's 

2 modeling results in the retirement of Gulf 

3 Power's entire coal fleet. The retirement of 

4 this capacity will hinder Gulf Power's ability to 

5 reliably serve customers and economically 

6 dispatch its fleet. Our customers will certainly 

7 be more susceptible to natural gas price spikes, 

8 which recent history has proven inevitable.

9 Secondly, EPA notes during its outreach 

10 process stakeholders expressed concerns that the 

11 proposed guidelines could potentially result in 

12 stranded investments, made in existing generation 

13 assets to comply with other EPA rules. EPA 

14 states that the proposal includes features that 

15 are intended to avoid the creation of stranded 

16 assets. EPA's attempt, however, falls flat, 

17 based on its own modeling. 

18 In 2009, a $600 million scrubber system 

19 began operation at Gulf Power Plant Crist in 

20 Pensacola, Florida. EPA's modeling shows Crist 

21 units 4 and 5 retiring in the base case, and 

22 Crist units 6 and 7 retiring in the main 

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1 compliance case. The unrecovered cost of Plant 

2 Crist's scrubber system are thus stranded, 

3 negatively impacting Gulf Power's customers. EPA 

4 must reassess its stringent proposal to 

5 specifically avoid stranded investments and 

6 existing generation assets.

7 Lastly, EPA's guidelines under Section 

8 111(d) of the Clean Air Act can only be based on 

9 technologies that can be implemented at an 

10 individual source or inside the fence. Three of 

11 EPA's so-called building blocks, used to 

12 establish the proposal -- best system of 

13 emissions reduction -- are clearly outside the 

14 fence and not controllable by any source that's 

15 regulated under EPA's proposed guidelines. 

16 The EPA's proposal is plainly 

17 inconsistent with the authority Congress provided 

18 the agency under Section 111(d). Through overly 

19 aggressive assumptions and interim targets 

20 approaching in 2020, EPA has eliminated the state 

21 of Florida's and Gulf Power's compliance 

22 flexibility. 

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1 Under this proposal, Florida State 

2 Implementation Plan would be due to EPA between 

3 June 2016 and June 2018. EPA then has 12 months 

4 to review the state's plan. Possibly, only 6 

5 months after EPA approves Florida's plan, the 

6 state of Florida and Gulf Power will need to 

7 begin operating in a compliance mode to meet the 

8 proposed interim targets. EPA's compliance 

9 option simply cannot be implemented to the 

10 necessary levels in such a short time period.

11 Because of the aforementioned concerns, 

12 Gulf Power requests that EPA re-propose the 

13 guidelines that are consistent with the Clean Air 

14 Act, provide the state of Florida compliance 

15 flexibility, recognize Florida's unique 

16 geographic constraints, and avoid stranded 

17 investments.

18 Thank you.

19 MS. TONEY: Thank you. Thank you, 

20 gentlemen. Our next speakers will be Matthew 

21 Bowden and Craig Stine, and then we will take a 

22 very brief 5-minute break. Matthew Bowden and 

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1 Craig Stine. Mr. Bowden?

2 MR. BOWDEN: Good morning. My name is 

3 Matt Bowden and I serve as Vice President of 

4 Environmental Affairs at Alabama Power Company. 

5 B-o-w-d-e-n. Our company is the largest 

6 electricity supplier in Alabama, with 1.4 million 

7 customers. Through 2013, Alabama Power has 

8 invested more than $3 billion in environmental 

9 controls. Over the next 3 years, we will spend 

10 another $1 billion in order to comply with new 

11 federal environmental rules.

12 In a state with a median income of 

13 $42,000, we must be mindful that 19 percent of 

14 our customers live below the federal poverty line 

15 and have seen the unemployment rate rise an 

16 entire percentage point since the end of January.

17 Alabama Power has three primary concerns 

18 in regards to EPA's proposed Clean Power Plan. 

19 First, EPA wrongly assumes that the state of 

20 Alabama can increase its in-state renewable 

21 energy generation to a level that would satisfy 

22 North Carolina's renewable energy and energy 

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1 efficiency portfolio standard. 

2 EPA plainly ignores the compliance 

3 options of North Carolina's program, which are 

4 not limited to in-state renewable energy 

5 generation but include energy efficiency, demand 

6 reduction, and the utilization of out-of-state

7 renewable energy credits. It is wrong for EPA to 

8 base its assumptions for Alabama's expected in9 state renewable energy generation levels on a 

10 standard that was not limited to renewable 

11 generation alone.

12 Furthermore, the availability of 

13 renewable energy resources differs in every 

14 state. Alabama Power has rights to 400 megawatts 

15 of wholesale generation from wind farms in 

16 Oklahoma and Kansas, to use or sell in a way that 

17 is most economical for our customers, because 

18 wind generation on a large scale is simply not 

19 feasible in Alabama. 

20 EPA's proposal assumes Alabama can add 

21 in-state generation from costly intermittent 

22 renewable energy sources by over 415 percent. 

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1 Meeting such a level would equate to the 

2 installation of over 5,000 megawatts of wind 

3 capacity, or 9,000 megawatts of solar capacity. 

4 Renewable generation on these scales, in the 

5 state of Alabama, is not practically, 

6 technically, or economically feasible. For 

7 instance, that amount of in-state wind generation 

8 would require approximately 700 square miles of 

9 land, more than 1-1/2 times the size of Mobile 

10 Bay. 

11 In contrast, EPA's own supporting 

12 technical documents show that Alabama has minimal 

13 on-shore wind resources, about 118 megawatts, or 

14 2 percent of EPA's Alabama target. With regard 

15 to solar, the land area required for 9,000 

16 megawatts of solar generation is more than the 

17 combined areas of the cities of Auburn and 

18 Tuscaloosa. 

19 My second point addressed is EPA's 

20 assumption that a portion of each state's nuclear 

21 capacity is at risk of retirement. For over 30 

22 years, however, Alabama Power's two nuclear units 

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1 at Plant Farley have operated safely, providing 

2 affordable carbon-free electricity to our 

3 customers. Recently, both units, along with 

4 other nuclear units in the state of Alabama, 

5 received 20-year operating license renewals, 

6 which clear indicate they are not at-risk nuclear 

7 units. To generically include such an assumption 

8 in Alabama's emission rate goal calculation 

9 results in more stringent targets, thus limiting 

10 operational flexibility across the entire 

11 generation fleet.

12 Lastly, the proposed guidelines exceed 

13 the authority Congress provided EPA under the 

14 Clean Air Act in three significant ways. First, 

15 guidelines must be based on the best system of 

16 emission reduction that is adequately 

17 demonstrated at covered sources, that is, inside18 the-fence technologies. Second, EPA is proposing 

19 binding, state-level goals. However, based on 

20 the Clean Air Act's plain language, only states 

21 have the authority to set performance standards 

22 for existing sources.

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1 Third, EPA's proposal unlawfully dictates 

2 Alabama's future generation mix, without adequate 

3 consideration of state and local factors. 

4 Congress never intended for energy policy to be 

5 set through the Clean Air Act. This authority 

6 rightfully resides at the state level, in the 

7 hands of elected officials, who understand local 

8 customer and economic sensitivities, and who are 

9 charged with the responsibility to make energy 

10 policy decisions. They understand how such 

11 decisions will affect the reliability and 

12 affordability of electric service for customers, 

13 and they are held accountable for the decisions 

14 they make.

15 Alabama Power requests that the EPA 

16 withdraw the proposed guidelines because they do 

17 not reflect realistic assumptions, and they do 

18 not respect authority reserved to states under 

19 the Clean Air Act.

20 MS. TONEY: Thank you . Mr. Stine?

21 MR. STINE: My name is Craig Stine, C-r22 a-i-g S-t-i-n-e. I live in Greenville, South 

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1 Carolina. I am customer of Duke Power at my 

2 primary residence, and a Blue Ridge Electric 

3 Cooperative at a cabin I co-own. I speak as a 

4 concerned citizen and as a parent of two young 

5 adult children. 

6 I am here because I strongly support the 

7 Clean Power Plan. I am here because particulate 

8 pollution from coal-fired power plants damages 

9 the health of millions of Americans and leads to 

10 premature deaths, because the combustion of coal 

11 emits pollutants that trigger asthma attacks and 

12 harm normal lung development. 

13 Because the Clean Power Plan is projected 

14 to reduce these pollutants by over 25 percent, I 

15 am here because I want my children and 

16 grandchildren to live in a world with healthier 

17 air to breathe. I am here because it is long 

18 past due for our country to take seriously the 

19 costly consequences of climate change and that of 

20 carbon emissions from power plants. 

21 The fifth and latest report from the 

22 Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change adds to 

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1 the overwhelming scientific evidence that burning 

2 fossil fuels is causing climate change, with 

3 carbon dioxide accounting for nearly three4 fourths of global greenhouse gas emissions.

5 In the United States, carbon dioxide, a 

6 mix of 84 percent of all greenhouse gas 

7 emissions, and the biggest source of carbon 

8 emissions in the U.S. are fossil fuel-fired power 

9 plants, which contribute one-third of total 

10 greenhouse gas emissions.

11 I am here because of what the 

12 consequences of climate change mean for my 

13 children and grandchildren. Already we see the 

14 more intense and severe droughts, wildfires, 

15 tornadoes, and hurricanes. According to the 

16 chief of the U.S. Forest Service, America's 

17 wildfire season lasts 2 months longer and burns 

18 up twice as much land than it did 40 years ago, 

19 because of the hotter, drier conditions produced 

20 by climate change.

21 In 2012, climate-related drought, 

22 superstorms, hurricanes, blizzards, heat waves, 

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1 and wildfires killed 349 people and caused an 

2 estimated $140 billion in damages. The cost to 

3 the Federal Government was nearly $100 billion, 

4 more than the government spent on either 

5 education or transportation, and about $1,100 per 

6 American taxpayer.

7 Due to climate change, sea levels are 

8 rising faster. Over the last 20 years, the 

9 average annual increase in relative sea level has 

10 been twice what it was for the previous 90 years. 

11 Our Atlantic and Gulf Coasts are among the areas 

12 seeing the highest increases. 

13 My daughter lives in Charleston, South 

14 Carolina. In just 50 years, the relative sea 

15 level along the South Carolina coast has risen 

16 about 6 inches. It is estimated that within 40 

17 years, the South Carolina coast is likely to see 

18 extreme floods more than 4 feet above high tide, 

19 resulting in billions of dollars in damage.

20 I am here because the Clean Power Plan is 

21 a reasonable, cost-effective way to reduce carbon 

22 emissions. States have flexibility in meeting 

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1 their individualized targets, targets based on 

2 each state's potential for alternative energy 

3 production and energy efficiency measures. 

4 And states have shown that they can 

5 rapidly reduce carbon emissions. In a recent 

6 submission to the EPA, 15 states laid out how 

7 they each reduced carbon pollution from the 

8 electricity sector by 20 percent in just 6 years, 

9 with some states achieving carbon reductions in 

10 the range of 30 to 46 percent.

11 I am here because we have a choice. We 

12 can do nothing and just continue to spend 

13 taxpayer dollars on Band-Aids to clean up and 

14 rebuild communities devastated by the loss of 

15 lives, homes, and businesses from increasingly 

16 severe weather events and rising sea levels, 

17 costs that will continue to increase, topping an 

18 estimated $500 billion per year by 2050.

19 I am here because I want to prevent this 

20 damage, save lives, save taxpayer dollars, and 

21 reduce this burden for my children and future 

22 generations. I am here because, as a nation, we 

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1 can choose to spend our money wisely to make 

2 things better.

3 The Clean Power Plan will lead to 

4 increased spending in renewable, cleaner, and 

5 more efficient energy technologies, investments 

6 that, over the long term, will reduce the 

7 devastating and costly impact of greenhouse gas 

8 emissions, investments that will benefit my 

9 children and future generations through higher 

10 economic growth and improved health.

11 I am, according to a Washington Post

12 poll, among the more than two-thirds of Americans 

13 who support carbon pollution limits on power 

14 plants. I support the Clean Power Plan because I 

15 do not want to further endanger and burden my 

16 children, grandchildren, and future generations 

17 through inaction. I hope we will seize this 

18 opportunity to improve their lives by fully 

19 implementing the Clean Power Plan.

20 Thank you.

21 MS. TONEY: Thank you. Thank you both, 

22 gentleman. At this time, we wanted to take a 

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1 brief 5-minute break. It is 10:11 p.m. [sic]. 

2 We will come back at roughly 10:16, and we will 

3 recess until then. Thank you.

4 [Recess taken from 10:11 to 10:16 a.m.]

5 MS. BANISTER: Okay. We will be resuming 

6 the hearing, if everyone would please take their 

7 seats. Good morning. Good morning. I am 

8 Beverly Banister. I am the Air, Pesticides, and 

9 Toxics Management Division Director here in 

10 Atlanta, in EPA Region 4, and we will resume our 

11 hearing this morning.

12 I would like to invite to the podium Roy 

13 Taylor and David Lambert. Roy Taylor and David 

14 Lambert. Thank you both for joining us this 

15 morning.

16 MR. TAYLOR: Good morning.

17 MR. LAMBERT: Good morning.

18 MS. BANISTER: Good morning. Mr. Taylor, 

19 if you could start, if you could state your name 

20 and spell it for the court reporter, please.

21 MR. TAYLOR: My name is Roy Taylor. 

22 That's R-o-y T-a-y-l-o-r. 

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1 MS. BANISTER: Okay. You may begin.

2 MR. TAYLOR: Good morning. Thank you for 

3 the opportunity to present my testimony in 

4 response to the proposed EPA ruling. I come to 

5 you today wearing several hats. I am here as a 

6 grandfather with concerns for my family in the 

7 future. I am here as a lead accredited 

8 professional, a green architect with an 

9 understanding of the science that has led to this 

10 ruling. 

11 I am here as clerk of Quaker Earthcare 

12 Witness, the North American network of the 

13 religious society of Friends, with concerns for 

14 Earth and care for creation. It is from this 

15 Quaker perspective that I present that we have a 

16 moral duty to take care of creation and preserve 

17 it for the future generations, as it is only 

18 loaned to us to use wisely while we are here on 

19 this Earth.

20 Quakers are grounded in the values of 

21 simplicity, peace, integrity, compassion, and 

22 equality. We are active in our public witness 

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1 and advocacy for a world that reflects these 

2 values. We offer testimony today. We, along 

3 with many faith traditions, recognize that 

4 climate disruption is one of the greatest 

5 challenges of our time. We are deeply concerned 

6 about its impacts on vulnerable communities, 

7 ecosystems, and economies, on specific 

8 coexistence of humankind and on the future of our 

9 children and generations to come.

10 Elite institutions in prominent sectors 

11 across the world find climate change to be a 

12 grave challenge requiring urgent action, 

13 including businesses like General Mills, Coca14 Cola, the U.S. military, NATO, IMF, and the World 

15 Bank. As Christine Lagarde, Managing Director of 

16 the IMF, said, "If we do not act, future 

17 generations will be roasted, toasted, friend, and 

18 grilled."

19 It is also the concern of leaders of 141 

20 nations, including President Obama, who signed 

21 the Copenhagen Accord, which recognizes that the 

22 increase in global temperatures should be kept 

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1 below 2 degrees Celsius, requiring deep cuts in 

2 global emissions. To meet this goal, according 

3 to the International Energy Agency, at least two4 thirds of the world's proven fossil fuel reserves 

5 must be kept in the ground.

6 This is one of the clear measurable,

7 daunting challenges of our time. The global 

8 community has yet to embrace this challenge. 

9 That is why we are so grateful the EPA has taken 

10 this monumental and courageous step through the 

11 carbon power plan.

12 I need to refer, just a moment, to --

13 At the same time, we also urge that the 

14 rules step more firmly into this challenge, for 

15 the science joins with faith in affirming the 

16 dignity of every human person in our collective 

17 care for creation. As Pope Francis has said, "If 

18 we destroy creation, it will destroy us, so we 

19 must cherish it in ourselves."

20 From a policy perspective, then, we 

21 should take this opportunity offered by the 

22 carbon power plan to support energy sources and 

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1 strategies from cradle to grave, adhere as 

2 closely as possible to the following criteria: 

3 emit little or no carbon dioxide and other 

4 greenhouse gases; do not have negative impact on 

5 human health, communities, and ecosystems; and 

6 are cost-effective and create long-term economic 

7 and job growth. 

8 In other words, what are the human, 

9 social, ecological, and economic costs and 

10 benefits of the various options EPA offers to the 

11 states, as well as their respective abilities to 

12 reduce carbons? It is through this lens we hope 

13 the final rule has a different menu of options 

14 for states. I wish to highlight a few points 

15 which will be elaborated in our written comments.

16 We question the proposed rule to support 

17 natural gas. Recent studies indicate methane 

18 pollution may make natural gas just as bad for 

19 the climate as coal, including underestimation of 

20 the amount of leakage, which would undermine the 

21 36 percent of the climate benefits derived from 

22 the plan.

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1 The economic, environmental, and health 

2 costs of nuclear energy, from cradle to grave, 

3 are too costly. Extraction of nuclear fuels is 

4 costly. Over the -- is that a time limit?

5 MS. BANISTER: Yes. You can go ahead and 

6 just wrap up.

7 MR. TAYLOR: Okay. I will conclude for 

8 you everything in my written comments, but would 

9 like to highlight that energy efficiency is the 

10 optimal choice for most states. It is the 

11 cheapest and greenest unit of energy, is the unit 

12 of energy that is not used. Costs are reduced, 

13 reduction targets are met, and jobs are created. 

14 A recent study by the American Council for Energy 

15 Efficient Economy finds that the deployment of 

16 existing energy efficiency policies can help 

17 states meet a large percentage of their emission 

18 reduction targets will creating over 600,000 jobs 

19 nationwide.

20 Thank you for the opportunity to present 

21 this.

22 MR. BANISTER: Thank you, sir. We 

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1 appreciate your comments. Yes. Would you state 

2 your name and spell it for the reporter?

3 MR. LAMBERT: Good morning and thank you 

4 for the opportunity to comment. My name is 

5 David, D-a-v-i-d, Lambert, L-a-m-b-e-r-t, and I 

6 am the Manager of Member Relations at 

7 Withlacoochee River Electric Cooperative. I'm 

8 here before you representing our nine-member 

9 board and our General Manager, Mr. Billy Brown, 

10 and the cooperative members within our five11 county service territory in the state of Florida. 

12 We appreciate the EPA holding these hearings and 

13 providing this public forum to answer any 

14 questions that we possibly may give to you in the 

15 future, and extending this comment period for 120 

16 days, so the people's voice can be heard.

17 I stand before you as the voice of the 

18 common constituent who has concerns with the 

19 potential impact of this plan. WREC is a not20 for-profit electric cooperative that serves half 

21 a million members on Florida's central gulf 

22 coast. The cooperative was formed in 1941, when 

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1 a group of like-minded farmers set out to improve 

2 the quality of life and bring economic 

3 opportunity to rural areas by building an 

4 electric distribution system from scratch. In 

5 the early days of the cooperative, we had many 

6 challenges. This like-minded group of people 

7 fought through a world war, and building our 

8 system to improve the quality of life in rural 

9 America.

10 But today we face a different challenge. 

11 Our member owners are not faced with building an 

12 electric distribution system from scratch or a 

13 world war. Rather, due to increased economic 

14 pressure and government regulations, they are 

15 facing electricity becoming a luxury, not the 

16 necessity that it is today.

17 I offer you some statistics from our 

18 members. From July 1, 2013, to June 30, 2014, 

19 WREC has had 105,937 notices of intent to 

20 disconnect the service for members failing to pay 

21 their electric bill. Under this plan, costs will 

22 certainly rise. This number does not include the 

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1 number of the members that we extended their bill 

2 in order to avoid disconnection of service.

3 The Federal Government is very familiar 

4 with the problems people face when it comes to 

5 paying electric bills. In fact, in the fiscal 

6 year 2014, under Title XXVI of the Omnibus Budget 

7 Reconciliation Act of 1981 (public law 97-35), 

8 Congress appropriated $3.5 billion for Low Income 

9 Home Energy Assistance Program, or the LIHEAP 

10 Program, which provides low- to no-income 

11 families assistance with their utility bill. This 

12 is critical because millions more Americans are 

13 going to need this type of assistance.

14 The Federal Government is also aware of 

15 the fragile state of our economy. According to 

16 RealtyTrac, as of June 2014, Florida is the 

17 leading state of foreclosures, with 1 in every 

18 436 houses receiving foreclosure filings. This, 

19 coupled with a 6.3 percent statewide unemployment 

20 rate, of a state that has nearly 20 million 

21 residents -- this number doesn't include the 

22 people that have given up looking for work --

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1 this plan will only add to the financial stress 

2 and burden on our families and communities. 

3 Within WREC's five-county service territory, one 

4 of our counties, Hernando, is among the highest 

5 employment rate of all 67 counties. They have 

6 9.3 percent unemployment. 

7 In a recent communication from one of our 

8 members, the Abercrombie family writes:

9 "Dear WREC. We are two senior citizens, 

10 retired disabled nurses living on a fixed income 

11 through Social Security. We reside in Lacoochee, 

12 a very poor rural community in Pascoe County. 

13 We're very scared about the possible increases of 

14 WREC's rates due to the EPA's regulations. My 

15 partner and I spend the majority of our fixed 

16 income on doctor visits, prescriptions, and bills 

17 such as electricity. The slightest increase in 

18 our bills, to include our electric bill, will 

19 force us to choose between our medicine, doctor's 

20 visits, or keeping the lights on. 

21 "Please do everything you can and tell 

22 the EPA that many of us cannot afford the 

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1 smallest increases, and that these new rules will 

2 certainly impact disabled seniors and others 

3 dramatically. Thank you for your time. 

4 Sincerely, the Abercrombies."

5 The Abercrombies' story is not uncommon 

6 and it's something our members face every day. 

7 According to the 2010 U.S. Census, WRAC serves 

8 241,840 seniors, with a large portion being on 

9 fixed income. As per the Meals on Wheels 

10 Association of America, one in six seniors in the 

11 nation do not know where they're going to get 

12 their next meal, or where their next meal will 

13 come from, and with more than 500,000 being the 

14 men and women who served our country, our 

15 veterans. 

16 In Florida, 731,703 seniors are 

17 struggling with hunger, with only 9 percent, or 

18 63,804 of them, receiving support from federally 

19 funded Older Americans Act nutritional services 

20 such as -- I'm almost finished -- such as Meals 

21 on Wheels. Of those clients receiving nutrition 

22 supporting services, 19.4 percent live in rural 

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1 communities, which we primarily serve. 

2 Unfortunately, since fiscal year 2009, Florida's 

3 nutrition programs have lost federally 

4 appropriated funding by 9.1 percent, drastically 

5 increasing the underserved seniors not receiving 

6 assistance.

7 As a not-for-profit electric cooperative 

8 owned by those we serve, WREC does all it can do 

9 to assure affordable costs during these tough 

10 economic times, while remaining good stewards of 

11 the environment, investing in energy efficiency 

12 programs. For example, our Voltage Conversion 

13 Program saved enough energy to power 22,000 

14 homes, achieving a peak demand reduction of 190 

15 megawatts and an annual energy reduction of 

16 305,000 megawatt-hours. We did this by 

17 increasing the basic insulation level of our 

18 power lines, which allowed us to double the 

19 voltage, cutting the line loss in half.

20 We also regularly conduct free home 

21 energy audits to our members, including 

22 businesses within our service territory, and have 

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1 given away 30,000 compact fluorescent light 

2 bulbs.

3 In conclusion, our mission at WREC is to 

4 provide affordable, reliable electric service. 

5 We have survived creating an electric 

6 distribution from scratch and faced many 

7 challenges to date. Today, the Clean Power Plan, 

8 with its proposed changes and upgrades at this 

9 time, coupled with stagnant wages, high 

10 unemployment, and escalating costs for everyday 

11 goods and services will increase the cost of 

12 electricity significantly and make the necessity 

13 of electricity a luxury for many.

14 Thank you for your time and listening to 

15 our concerns. We hope you reevaluate the Clean 

16 Power Plan, taking the above statistics into 

17 consideration, and ensuring that electricity is 

18 available and affordable for every American 

19 family.

20 Thank you.

21 MS. BANISTER: Thank you. Could you 

22 clarify, again, which counties your co-op covers?

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1 MR. LAMBERT: Pasco, Hernando, Polk, 

2 Citrus, and Sumter Counties, parts of those.

3 MS. BANISTER: Okay. Thank you, sir. 

4 Thank you both. I would like to invite up Jeff 

5 Bowman, or Bowman, Romanous Dotson, R-o-m-a-n-o6 u-s Dotson, to come up, please. Hello. Welcome.

7 MR. BOWMAN: Good morning. Thank you.

8 MS. BANISTER: Good morning. Good 

9 morning, sir. If you could just state your name 

10 and spell it for the court reporter, and then you 

11 can begin. Thank you, sir.

12 MR. BOWMAN: Okay. Thank you. My name 

13 is Jeff Bowman, B-o-w-m-a-n, and I'm the Chief 

14 Legal and Communications Officer for South 

15 Mississippi Electric Power Association.

16 South Mississippi Electric is a wholesale 

17 power provider to 11 electric distribution co18 ops, all of which are located in the state of 

19 Mississippi. We are headquartered in 

20 Hattiesburg, Mississippi, and provide, through 

21 our 11 distribution members, electric service to 

22 more than 417,000 homes, businesses, and 

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1 industries in 55 of Mississippi's 82 counties, 

2 which is a little over half the state's land 

3 mass. 

4 South Mississippi Electric uses a mix of 

5 coal, natural gas, nuclear energy, and 

6 hydroelectric power to produce electric energy. 

7 In 2013, coal comprised 38 percent of the fuel we 

8 used to produce electricity to serve our members' 

9 needs. In 2012, Mississippi had the 15th lowest 

10 carbon intensity rate among the states, yet under 

11 the EPA's proposed Clean Power Plan, 

12 Mississippi's carbon intensity reduction goals 

13 are among the harshest, requiring a 62 percent 

14 reduction from the so-called 2005 baseline year. 

15 EPA's rule for existing power plants 

16 assumes that our coal-fired facility, which is 

17 Plant Morrow, located in Purvis, Mississippi, 

18 would no longer dispatch due to economics. Since 

19 2010 alone, we have spent more than $65 million 

20 in pollution control equipment at Plant Morrow to 

21 address previous EPA regulations, and additional 

22 pollution control equipment tests are currently 

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1 in process to comply with the MATS rule. If coal 

2 is eliminated from the resource mix, as proposed 

3 by the Clean Power Plan, these investments will 

4 become stranded costs, borne by Mississippi 

5 residents without any corresponding benefit.

6 Additionally, in 2012, we invested over 

7 $77 million in Grand Gulf Nuclear Station's 

8 extended power upgrade, which secured 18 

9 megawatts of additional emission-free capacity 

10 and energy. However, no credit is allowed by EPA 

11 for this investment by our members.

12 In Building Block 1 of the Clean Power 

13 Plan, the administration makes the assumption 

14 that a 6 percent efficiency improvement is 

15 possible with all existing units, and such is not 

16 realistic for our coal plant. In Building Block 

17 2, the EPA suggests that dispatching natural gas 

18 combined cycle units up to a 70 percent capacity 

19 factor to further reduce carbon emissions. As 

20 owners of significant combined cycle capacity, we 

21 have never been able to economically dispatch our 

22 units to achieve more than a 32 percent capacity 

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1 factor, regardless of fuel prices. These

2 machines were never intended, nor designed, to be 

3 a long-term, base-load resources, as EPA 

4 suggests.

5 In Building Block 3, the EPA makes 

6 unrealistic assumptions for renewables. 

7 Mississippi averages 52 inches of rain per year, 

8 and the wind is intermittent at best during peak 

9 load seasons. No significant renewable 

10 generation has been built in Mississippi other 

11 than biomass, due to the prevailing weather 

12 conditions in the state, so the assumption by the 

13 EPA that Mississippi can achieve a 10 percent 

14 renewable energy standard seems arbitrary, and 

15 it's certainly unsupported by the actual facts.

16 South Mississippi Electric has been 

17 involved in energy efficiency with our members 

18 since 1988. Again, though, EPA gives no credit 

19 for these early programs. Significant future 

20 energy efficiency measures are not likely without 

21 massive investment in newer housing. 

22 We saw significant energy efficiency 

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1 improvement after Hurricane Katrina, when, 

2 unfortunately, thousands of housing units were 

3 destroyed. However, they were replaced with 

4 newer energy-efficient houses that contained 

5 newer energy-efficient appliances. That 

6 improvement was not possible, though, without a 

7 massive federal assistance. A similar federal 

8 program will be necessary in Mississippi to move 

9 us further forward, considering the high 

10 percentage of manufactured housing we have in our 

11 state.

12 Our members serve some of the poorest 

13 areas in Mississippi, which means they serve some 

14 of the poorest in our country. These folks 

15 already pay high energy costs, due to high 

16 consumption for air conditioning, and can least 

17 afford the increased energy cost that will 

18 necessarily result from the Clean Power Plan. 

19 Yet the EPA's proposed rule results in taking a 

20 state that is already relatively low in CO2 

21 output due to investments and efforts already 

22 made, and penalizes it with one of the largest 

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1 CO2 reduction mandates. 

2 Whatever the models are based on, they 

3 are clearly flawed with respect to Mississippi, 

4 and we respectfully submit that they need to be 

5 reworked by the EPA, as this is not just an 

6 absurd result. It is terribly unjust to impose 

7 these additional costs on Mississippi residents 

8 who have paid already, and are continuing to pay, 

9 to lower their carbon output.

10 Thank you all very much for your time.

11 MS. BANISTER: Thank you, sir. Mr. 

12 Dotson?

13 MR. DOTSON: My name is Romanous Dotson. 

14 I am the general manager of Altamaha EMC in 

15 Lyons, Georgia. Romanous, R-o-m-a-n-o-u-s, 

16 Dotson, D-o-t-s-o-n. 

17 Altamaha is a not-for-profit distribution 

18 cooperative located in southeastern Georgia. We 

19 own and maintain approximately 3,300 miles of 

20 distribution line and serve approximately between 

21 19,000 and 20,000 meters at any time. As a side 

22 note, I wanted to share just a little bit about -

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1 - I've heard many things about the impact on the 

2 environment about where I live and where I grew 

3 up, and this is actually not part of my script 

4 but I actually live within 10 miles of Plant 

5 Hatch. I actually grew up within just a sight of 

6 the buildings. You could see the buildings from 

7 where I worked, as a young man, in the 

8 agricultural industry. You could see the 

9 buildings on the plant.

10 As an observation, when I grew up, there 

11 was no white-tailed deer in our area. If you saw 

12 a white-tailed deer, you would've had to go to 

13 the coast or Fort Stewart or somewhere that was 

14 much more lower than we were and much more 

15 woodland. No turkeys, no wild turkeys. I do not 

16 see the impact of the environment on -- white17 tailed deer is now a problem. Wild turkeys are 

18 anywhere. I mean, you can see them crossing the 

19 county-maintained highways in the lower-lying 

20 areas. I see our wildlife as abundant. 

21 Again, I live within 10 miles of Plant 

22 Hatch, and have for almost all my life. I live 

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1 within 50 miles of a recycled paper mill in 

2 Dublin, Georgia, SP Newsprint. They use coal to 

3 produce recycled paper and have for years. I 

4 live within 80 miles of Union Camp in Savannah. 

5 I've seen no long-term health effects to me or my 

6 family, and if I had, I would've moved to 

7 somewhere else. So, as a note to that, I have 

8 not seen anything but a constant change to the 

9 good in my world.

10 Now, EPA's proposal -- back to why we're 

11 here, I want to speak in opposition, naturally, 

12 to EPA's new guidelines and proposals. I see 

13 this as causing a dramatic shift in the way 

14 electricity in Georgia will be generated and 

15 used. In order for these guidelines, coal-fired 

16 power plants that we depended on this past winter 

17 for our coldest days, those plants will have to 

18 be shut down. 

19 Shutting down those plants will actually 

20 cause us to have, build more gas-fired plants, 

21 just like there was in Mississippi, and it also 

22 will cause an increase demand in gas. Well, this 

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1 increased demand for gas will require new 

2 investments, new infrastructure for American and 

3 Georgia families. They'll have to make 

4 significant financial investments, or either 

5 their light bills will increase so much they'll 

6 have to reduce their energy usage.

7 Many of our members already struggle to 

8 pay their bills and live with minimal 

9 conveniences. Again, Altamaha serves probably 

10 some of the lower-income families, and probably, 

11 as most EMCs do, we serve the lowest-income 

12 families in the state.

13 Beyond my concern for the amount the 

14 members are paying for their electricity is the 

15 way Georgia is being treated in comparison with 

16 other states. This rule does not provide for 

17 equitable spread of the burden across all states. 

18 Between 2005 and 2012, Georgia reduced its CO2 

19 emissions by around 30 percent, but under this 

20 rule, between 2012 and 2030, our state will be 

21 required to reduce its emissions another 44 

22 percent. This is the sixth-largest reduction of 

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1 all states. Other states, which have been much 

2 less proactive than Georgia in the past are being 

3 required to do much less.

4 Another factor in the unfairness of 

5 Georgia is how the rule ignores our efforts in 

6 building two new emission-free nuclear plants. 

7 Under construction, nuclear should not be 

8 included in the calculation for state goals. 

9 EPA's inclusion of Vogtle 3 and 4, in setting 

10 Georgia performance standard, is unfair and 

11 misguided. 

12 Rather than rewarding states and 

13 utilities that are early movers in permitting and 

14 constructing the supported type of non-emitting 

15 generation, EPA's inclusion of under-construction 

16 nuclear in calculating state goals serves, 

17 instead, as a penalty. Specifically, the 

18 electricity consumer of Georgia should not be 

19 penalized for stepping up and spending more than 

20 $14 billion on Vogtle 3 and 4. It's blatantly 

21 unfair.

22 I urge the EPA to withdraw this proposal, 

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1 work with us on new common-sense approaches that 

2 we treat all of the above energy strategies.

3 Thank you. I'm sorry.

4 MS. BANISTER: That's fine. That's fine. 

5 Thank you. Thank you both for your comments, and 

6 please submit additional comments as you have 

7 them. Thank you.

8 I would like to invite up Dale Kemmerick 

9 and Evan Swaak, S-w-a-a-k. Thank you, sir, for 

10 being with us. If you would state your name and 

11 spell it for the court reporter, then you can 

12 begin.

13 MR. KEMMERICK: Yes. My name is Dale 

14 Kemmerick. It's D-a-l-e K-e-m-m-e-r-i-c-k. 

15 Okay. I'm a retired air pollution meteorologist 

16 from the Georgia Air Protection Branch of EPD. 

17 Let's keep this simple. The hotter the ambient 

18 temperature, the higher your summer electricity 

19 bill. If you control CO2 and lower the ambient 

20 temperature, or even prevent further increase of 

21 the temperature, you reduce the air conditioning 

22 costs.

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1 For example, I'd like you to see my last 

2 two July power bills. Everything was the same --

3 the number of days in the billing, the same 

4 program on the thermostat, except that one July 

5 was an average 6 degrees Fahrenheit hotter than 

6 the other. The bill for the hotter July was 92 

7 percent greater than the bill for the cooler July 

8 -- almost double, or over $105 that I saved for 

9 that one cooler month. This resulted in Southern 

10 Company's third quarter revenue being down 12 

11 percent, and what was their excuse -- and I 

12 quote? The latest quarter's results were 

13 negatively influenced by cooler than normal 

14 temperatures and unusually heavy rainfall. 

15 If you let Georgia Power keep pumping out 

16 CO2 from coal, and increasing the temperature, it 

17 is more revenue for them and higher bills for 

18 their customers. Since CO2 is a pollutant that 

19 produces harm, it should have been controlled at 

20 the start of the Clean Air Act. By delaying the 

21 cost of control, EPA has incentivized and 

22 subsidized the overuse of carbon-based fuels. 

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1 When you take away the subsidies, consider all 

2 the costs, and eliminate the voodoo accounting, 

3 coal has never been a cost-effective fuel for 

4 electrical generation. 

5 First consider the emission fees paid to 

6 state and local agencies. Before I retired, I 

7 personally accepted a check for over $900,000 

8 from Georgia Power courier, for a quarterly 

9 payment of their emission fees. If they relied 

10 on efficiency and certain emitting fuels, Georgia 

11 Power customers could save millions of dollars in 

12 emission fees per year, and these emission fees 

13 that are due to coal will only increase when CO2 

14 is added to the list.

15 Second, consider the environmental 

16 compliance cost. Each month on my Georgia Power 

17 bill, it lists about $8.00 for those costs, just 

18 so they can burn coal. If, years ago, they had 

19 relied on natural gas as their base load, it 

20 would have saved me about $100 per year, because 

21 they would not have needed the SCR, the bag 

22 houses, and scrubbers, and the billions of 

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1 dollars in control equipment that the customer 

2 pays to subsidize the cost of coal.

3 Third, the cost of ash ponds are not 

4 calculated in the cost of coal electrical 

5 generation. Ash ponds have high cost and 

6 threaten drinking water supplies. In Tennessee, 

7 the rupture of one ash pond cost $1.2 billion to 

8 clean up, and in North Carolina, Duke Power 

9 estimates it would cost $10 billion to properly 

10 dispose of the ash from their 14 sites. Each 

11 power company has billions and billions of future 

12 costs for ash ponds that are not accounted for in 

13 the cost of coal electrical generation.

14 Fourth, the costs of climate extremes. 

15 Coal emits more CO2 than any other fuel, and 

16 therefore it produces higher average 

17 temperatures, which not only increases the cost 

18 of air conditioning, as I stated before, but 

19 contributes to other weather extremes, like 

20 storms and droughts.

21 Finally, you will never hear the power 

22 companies talk about health costs to coal-fired 

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1 EGUs, yet they know they significantly contribute 

2 to the excessive cost of health care. John 

3 Jansen of Southern Company and Alan Hansen of 

4 EPRI, conducted a study called ARIES in Atlanta 

5 that showed a direct association or correlation 

6 between high pollutant concentrations and 

7 emergency health department visits and mortality, 

8 and presented it to EPD. 

9 Yet, the power companies are not required 

10 to pay the hospital, the insurance companies, or 

11 the patients for the billions of dollars of costs 

12 caused by their emissions. We have a right to 

13 clean air. Power companies do not have the right 

14 to blow smoke and pollutants into our face and 

15 force us to pay for the resulting health costs 

16 they cause.

17 One quick point. Yesterday I heard a lot 

18 about how power companies cannot use natural gas 

19 because the price is too volatile. They state 

20 that the price of gas shot up during the polar 

21 vortex last winter. I don't think they realize 

22 it but that is precisely the point. It wasn't 

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1 the production or supply of natural gas that 

2 caused the price increase, but the increased 

3 demand because of the climate disruption. 

4 The polar vortex is a secondary jet 

5 stream near the Arctic Circle that normally keeps 

6 extremely cold air bottled up in the Arctic area, 

7 with zonal flow. When the climate is disrupted 

8 and the vortex is weakened, the cold air is able 

9 to escape the south, and we feel it. That is why 

10 many days there were much warmer temperatures in 

11 Anchorage, Alaska than Atlanta. I fail to see 

12 how the continued burning of coal will stabilize 

13 the climate. If you want stable gas prices, you 

14 need to stabilize the climate.

15 MS. BANISTER: Thank you, sir. I 

16 appreciate your comments. Thank you. I would 

17 like to now invite up Mr. Randy Hill.

18 [Inaudible comment.]

19 MS. BANISTER: Well, you would have to 

20 speak to him offline.

21 [Inaudible comment.]

22 MS. BANISTER: No. I'm sorry. I'm 

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1 sorry. You would have to speak to someone --

2 Rosalyn, can you hook her up with someone, or 

3 Jeanine, that she could get a response? Okay.

4 Okay. So Mr. Randy Hill and Randy 

5 Morris. Are you in the room, Randy Morris? 

6 Okay. All right. We'll call him up later.

7 MR. HILL: I'm Randy Hill. I'm sorry.

8 MS. BANISTER: Okay. Right. Thank you, 

9 Mr. Hill. Would you state your name and spell it 

10 for the court reporter, please?

11 MR. HILL: Sure. My name is Randy Hill. 

12 That's R-a-n-d-y H-i-l-l.

13 MS. BANISTER: Thank you, sir. You can 

14 begin.

15 MR. HILL: Thanks. Thank you for this 

16 opportunity today. I have been the Member 

17 Services Manager for the past 16 years and have 

18 more than 25 years of experience at Planters 

19 Electric Membership Corporation. Planters EMC 

20 serves about 16,000 meters in mainly Burke, 

21 Screven, and Jenkins Counties, but we also have 

22 meters in Bulloch, Effingham, Emanuel, and 

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1 Richmond Counties. We are in southeast Georgia, 

2 between Augusta and Savannah.

3 EPA, please do not implement this 

4 proposed rules of the Clean Power Plan. Planters 

5 EMC service territory covers a large part of 

6 rural Georgia, and many areas that, in the past 

7 few decades, have been struggling to survive in 

8 the face of a tough economy and a constant 

9 increase in cost of goods. Jenkins County led 

10 the state with unemployment, over 20 percent, a 

11 few years ago. We've kind of dug out of that 

12 hole. We're now at 15 percent, still. As a 

13 nonprofit cooperative, any increase in energy 

14 costs will have to be passed directly to our 

15 members, many of whom just cannot afford 

16 increases in their energy cost. 

17 By reducing the overall amount of 

18 dependable, base-load power generation, EPA is 

19 removing a vital safety net that prevents rolling 

20 blackouts in times of peak use. For example, on 

21 the morning of January 6th and 7th of this year, 

22 record low temperatures gripped the nation. 

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1 Georgia's electric cooperatives set an all-time 

2 peak demands and usage for energy, and much of 

3 that demand happened in the predawn and early 

4 morning hours. The energy that met that peak 

5 demand was nuclear, natural gas, and coal. All 

6 conventional sources of energy were absolutely 

7 critical to ensure that we were able to keep our 

8 homes and businesses running.

9 Lastly, we question whether EPA has the 

10 authority to regulate carbon dioxide under 

11 Section 111 of the Clear Air Act in the first 

12 place. At most, Section 111 may permit the EPA 

13 to provide guidance to the states on how to 

14 determine the best system of emissions reductions 

15 at each power plant, but this proposal will 

16 require sweeping changes to the electric utility 

17 industry. This proposal is basically granting 

18 the EPA limitless authority to regulate the 

19 entire economy and the lifestyles of every 

20 consumer in the country. 

21 The EPA must withdraw this proposal and 

22 come up with a new approach that falls within the 

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1 narrow scope of authority granted by Congress. I 

2 want to repeat -- please do not implement these 

3 proposed rules of the Clean Power Plan.

4 Thanks for the opportunity to speak 

5 today.

6 MS. BANISTER: Thank you, Mr. Hill. We 

7 appreciate your comments.

8 MS. MILLER: Can I ask a qualifying 

9 question? You were talking about the polar 

10 vortex back in January and you said that there 

11 was a peak. Sir, did you say that was an all12 time peak or a winter peak?

13 MR. HILL: It set peak demands.

14 MS. MILLER: Set peak demand for the all15 time peak, right? Is that what you were saying?

16 MR. HILL: It was 19 degrees at my house 

17 and in south Georgia. It was really cold, and it 

18 was at night, so we had to use every available 

19 resource to make sure that we kept the lights on. 

20 The people in my area know me. We're more likely 

21 to meet a tractor on the road than a car. I 

22 mean, I drove up this morning. This is really 

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1 out of my environment with this many cars. We're 

2 rural, rural Georgia, and thank you again.

3 MS. MILLER: Thank you.

4 MS. BANISTER: Thank you. I would like 

5 to invite up Juanita Roark, R-o-a-r-k, and 

6 Katherine Mitchell. Thank you, ladies, for 

7 joining us this morning. Juanita, if you would 

8 state your name and spell it for the court 

9 reporter.

10 MS. ROARK: Okay. Juanita Roark. J-u-a11 n-i-t-a R-o-a-r-k.

12 MS. BANISTER: You may begin.

13 MS. ROARK: I am from Atlanta. I'm a 

14 mother, a grandmother, and I am concerned about 

15 the impact of climate change, not only just on my 

16 family but on humanity. So I am here in support 

17 of the EPA's plan to limit some of this existing 

18 power plant pollution.

19 I have a slightly different outlook, 

20 probably, on climate change than most people 

21 here, because I've already lost a third of my 

22 property due to the rise of ocean waters. I 

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1 tried to plan for retirement, putting my savings 

2 into property, which seemed safe. You know that 

3 old saying -- they ain't making beach property 

4 anymore? It was true until now. So one-third of 

5 my priority is now considered, by the government, 

6 as too dangerous to build on. It's being 

7 resurveyed and, unfortunately, there are 

8 structures there already -- small, but they're 

9 there.

10 Also, I have no assurance that the 

11 remaining two-thirds of that property will be 

12 considered large enough to build a home when I 

13 really need to retrieve that money for my nest 

14 egg. This does not mean that I'm bitter nor 

15 blaming. I'm willing to step up and take my 

16 share of the responsibility. I'm willing to do 

17 whatever cleanup is necessary to save our 

18 species. 

19 We all learned to clean up our own messes 

20 in kindergarten, didn't we? Well, in 

21 kindergarten, the paint spilled on the floor 

22 didn't affect a whole lot, but the mess we've 

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1 created now is affecting the whole world, so, one 

2 that may even affect the existence of our species 

3 on this planet. The planet itself will go on 

4 quite nicely without us, I'm sure, but I think, 

5 like all of us here, we'd really like to stick 

6 around and know that seven generations from now 

7 we're still going to have a world for our 

8 posterity to enjoy.

9 So, unfortunately, the U.S. has a 

10 wasteful and sometimes lavish lifestyle that is 

11 affecting the rest of the world. So, I'm pleased 

12 to see the EPA stepping up to the plate. Since 

13 electricity production by coal-fired plants is 

14 the greatest source of CO2, according to the 

15 union of scientists, it seems logical that that's 

16 a good place to start in this reduction, so I 

17 applaud the EPA for taking the lead in addressing 

18 that responsibility.

19 I also believe there's another greenhouse 

20 gas that's even more harmful -- methane. The 

21 unfortunate truth of methane is that it is 34 to 

22 86 times more harmful than CO2. So, if the 

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1 leakage is kept at between 1 and 3 percent, it's 

2 on a par with natural gas. But that balance of 

3 natural gas and coal, then, begins to fade very 

4 quickly when you go above that 3 percent. 

5 Unfortunately, private testing shows that there 

6 are places across our country that that 

7 percentage is 20 percent, way above 3. Even the 

8 leakage from distribution just in cities like 

9 Atlanta is a problem, and we're not really 

10 monitoring it. L.A.'s is 17 percent. 

11 So nuclear power, also, is not quite as 

12 safe as we were led to believe, nor even 

13 economically feasible, but one thing we do know 

14 is that coal is not safe for our atmosphere, nor 

15 our water, so this is a good place to start on 

16 our quest for making this a safer planet.

17 So whatever it takes for us to evolve 

18 into using renewable energy seems most prudent, 

19 however uncomfortable. The fear associated with 

20 change is something we all understand. 

21 Retraining for a different type of job is 

22 daunting, but doable. As a nation, we've always 

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1 risen to the challenge. We see ourselves as a 

2 world leader, yet Germany and some other 

3 countries now seem to be leading. 

4 We think that we can adapt, but people 

5 don't seem to be adapting too well to this new 

6 mosquito-borne virus, chikungunya. We just 

7 started hearing about it from our media in 

8 December, here in the States, but even since 

9 December, over 400,000 cases have been reported 

10 in Latin America and the Caribbean. Our warmer 

11 climate here is inviting those mosquitoes. Move 

12 in. Our warmer climate here is inviting more 

13 superstorms like Sandy. So all of us here, in 

14 this room, in this city, in this nation, may soon 

15 feel the effect in a very physical way.

16 I don't believe that we're insane, as 

17 Einstein pointed out, that we know we can't get a 

18 different outcome using the same methods. I 

19 trust that our great-grandchildren will inherit a 

20 different, a more peaceful world. Wars have been 

21 fought and are being fought today over fossil 

22 fuels. My vote is for peace, and for them, and 

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1 the planet. 

2 I'm grateful, so grateful, to the EPA for 

3 helping us become more responsible, and I thank 

4 you all for being here and caring. Thank you.

5 MS. BANISTER: Thank you.

6 MR. STENHOUSE: Thanks for your input. I 

7 wanted to ask, you mentioned some statistics 

8 about leakage rates, I think, of methane 

9 associated with natural gas production and maybe 

10 distribution. First of all, I think you said 

11 something about 1 to 3 percent being important --

12 MS. ROARK: The equaling point.

13 MR. STENHOUSE: -- between -- can you 

14 clarify? Equaling between what?

15 MS. ROARK: Between gas and coal.

16 MR. STENHOUSE: Okay. The greenhouse gas 

17 impacts of gas and coal.

18 MS. ROARK: Yes.

19 MR. STENHOUSE: And so, the other request 

20 is that, if possible, if you can include whatever 

21 sources you found that had some of those 

22 estimates you provided, either citations to those 

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1 sources or something from the source in whatever 

2 you submit in writing, that would help us.

3 MS. ROARK: I'll do that. Just off the 

4 top of my head, I know that it's Episode 6 of 

5 "Years of Living Dangerously" that gets into that 

6 specific. They show how they're actually testing 

7 and areas that they're testing, and exact 

8 results. My understanding is that the EPA does 

9 not test for that, so it's taking a private 

10 testing to find out.

11 MR. STENHOUSE: Okay. Thank you very 

12 much.

13 MS. BANISTER: Do you have a clarifying 

14 question. Okay. Thank you so much. Katherine?

15 MS. MITCHELL: Yes. My name is Katherine 

16 Mitchell, K-a-t-h-e-r-i-n-e, Mitchell, M-i-t-c-h17 e-l-l. I am from Atlanta, Georgia, and I'm a 

18 visual artist and retired teacher, but also, I'm 

19 a grandmother and I'm going to speak as a 

20 grandmother who would like for my grandchildren 

21 and their children to inherit a safe planet. It 

22 is imperative that we combat climate change, 

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1 which is a reality, and control emissions from 

2 current power plants. The EPA needs much more 

3 stringent regulations. We must reduce emissions 

4 from electrical power, which comprise nearly 40 

5 percent of the country's emissions.

6 If we do not combat global warming, it 

7 will have cataclysmic effects. It will ricochet 

8 through the economy, for the long term as well as 

9 the short term. It will effect our health and 

10 well-being, our air quality, our food supply, our 

11 way of life. The battle against climate change 

12 is about all we can win, but not if we continue 

13 to delay. We need clean, renewable sources of 

14 energy. The technologies exist. They must be 

15 implemented.

16 I respectfully request that the EPA make 

17 four major changes to the proposed rule. First, 

18 there should be more stringent emission 

19 reductions, particularly from coal-fired plants. 

20 Second, in addition to being more strict, the 

21 implementation of these regulations should be 

22 sooner. Time is of the essence in this struggle.

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1 Third, it is a mistake to encourage the 

2 use of natural gas as more than a transitional 

3 fuel, as we convert to clean, sustainable energy 

4 sources. Natural gas is not a clean fuel. It 

5 does release methane into the environment. Our 

6 time and effort should go into the development of 

7 sustainable, non-fossil sources like solar, and 

8 there is a solar industry in Georgia, right here 

9 in the state. 

10 Fourth, I would like to request that the 

11 EPA encourage all states heavily reliant on coal, 

12 such as Georgia, to increase the proportion of 

13 energy from renewable sources, such as solar and 

14 wind. I am aware that nuclear energy also brings 

15 with it significant problems, not least is that 

16 there is no known way to safely dispose of spent 

17 fuel rods -- not in Germany, not in Japan, not 

18 anywhere. These highly radioactive rods will 

19 present major problems for future generations. I 

20 would also prefer that we move away from the 

21 mining of uranium.

22 In the past, the world has often looked 

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1 to the U.S.A. for leadership. We have a chance 

2 to be leaders in the move to clean, sustainable 

3 energy. There is no downside to our making these 

4 changes. Our future hangs in the balance. The 

5 economy will not survive our not acting.

6 Thank you very much for your 

7 consideration and attention.

8 MS. BANISTER: Do I have some clarifying 

9 questions? Okay. Thank you both.

10 MS. MITCHELL: Thank you.

11 MS. BANISTER: Okay. I want to do a 

12 quick check to make sure that Randall Morris is 

13 not in the room -- Randall Morris -- and also 

14 Evan Swaak. Just checking to see if either one 

15 of those persons are in the room. If not, we're 

16 going to take a 5-minute break, and then we will 

17 return. Thank you.

18 [Recess taken from 11:12 to 11:20 a.m.]

19 MS. BANISTER: We're going to go ahead and 

20 get started here, if everyone would please take 

21 their seats.

22 I would invite Jenah Zweig to come up, ZOLENDER REPORTING, INC.

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1 w-e-i-g, and Bill Verner, V-e-r-n-e-r, to join us 

2 at the front, on the podium.

3 Thank you both for joining us this 

4 morning.

5 MR. VERNER: Thank you.

6 MS. ZWEIG: Good morning.

7 MS. BANISTER: Good morning. Jenah, we 

8 will start with you. If you would state your 

9 name and spell it for the court reporter, and 

10 then you can begin.

11 MS. ZWEIG: Absolutely. Jenah, J-e-n-a-h 

12 -- it doesn't get easier -- Zweig, Z, as in 

13 zebra-w-e-i-g. And organization, as well?

14 MS. BANISTER: Yes.

15 MS. ZWEIG: Okay. SEEA, the Southeast 

16 Energy Efficiency Alliance.

17 MS. BANISTER: Okay. You can begin.

18 MS. ZWEIG: SEEA is a nonprofit, 

19 nonpartisan organization that serves an 11-state 

20 territory, from Virginia down to Florida, over to 

21 Louisiana, Arkansas, which includes all of EPA 

22 Region 4 and portions of Regions 3 and 6. SEEA 

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1 is also one of the six regional energy efficiency 

2 organizations and SEEA leverages its extensive 

3 network that includes utilities, trade allies, 

4 and manufacturers, to convene partners, 

5 strengthen policies and programs, and educate 

6 stakeholders. SEEA does not take a position on 

7 EPA's authority to issue 111(d) draft guidelines. 

8 SEEA is here today to provide productive 

9 perspective on how EPA can facilitate energy 

10 efficiency as a compliance pathway. 

11 If the final rules move forward, SEEA 

12 requests that EPA provide more guidance on 

13 resources on (1) the kinds of energy efficiency 

14 compliance options EPA would definitively accept 

15 as a component of compliance plans, and (2) how 

16 plans incorporating energy efficiency should be 

17 structured.

18 EPA's currently proposed guidelines 

19 wisely include energy efficiency. However, 

20 little to no guidance has yet been provided on 

21 how energy efficiency can be incorporated through 

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1 funded programs, codes and appliance standards, 

2 and energy efficiency financing. Many key 

3 Southern stakeholders have expressed a need for 

4 greater certainty when considering energy 

5 efficiency. 

6 EPA's assurance that it will be flexible 

7 with compliance plans, once submitted, is not 

8 enough. There is a deterrent to investment in 

9 new infrastructure to support energy efficiency 

10 compliance without (1) the certainty that it will 

11 be included, and (2) guidance on how it will be 

12 included.

13 In particular, utility energy efficiency 

14 protocols for evaluation, measurement, and 

15 verification, EM&V, has many years of tried and 

16 true experience determining the impacts of energy 

17 efficiency, having been fully vetted within most 

18 public utilities commissions. States and the EPA 

19 do not need a duplicate EM&V infrastructure. 

20 However, the value of cost-effective energy 

21 efficiency for utility resource planning versus 

22 the value and cost-effectiveness for emissions 

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1 are not the same. Moreover, scorekeeping of the 

2 emissions reductions attributable to end-use 

3 energy efficiency is not nearly as well 

4 developed, and, in most cases, is quite 

5 unfamiliar to regulators such as environmental 

6 protection agencies.

7 Accordingly, EPA should develop tools to 

8 bridge this gap, such as deemed emissions values, 

9 a scoring system, or other quantification 

10 guidelines. For example, providing a tool 

11 comparable to the EPA Office of Transportation 

12 and Air Quality's Motor Vehicle Emissions 

13 Simulator, or MOVES, could help alleviate 

14 concerns that energy efficiency, EM&V, will be 

15 onerous and cost-prohibitive. Most 

16 significantly, this would allow states to more 

17 confidently pursue energy efficiency as 

18 appropriate to their circumstances.

19 Additionally, in the Southeast, where 

20 most southeastern utilities remain vertically 

21 integrated, incentive mechanisms will likely be 

22 needed to eliminate return-on-investment gaps 

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1 with energy efficiency as compared to other 

2 capital investments. Accordingly, EPA should 

3 consider how their framework can encourage 

4 market-based solutions to address the regional 

5 implications of state-based plans, in light of 

6 ISO and RTO networks, multistate utilities, and 

7 the inherent interconnectedness of the grid.

8 Without more resources to increase 

9 confidence and energy efficiency is an assured 

10 compliance option, southeastern utilities are 

11 less likely to incorporate energy efficiency as a 

12 part of their compliance plans, foregoing the 

13 opportunity to secure these costs and resource 

14 and its many benefits.

15 Providing guidance to encourage and set 

16 the stage for incorporation of energy efficiency 

17 into compliance plans has applicability far 

18 beyond 111(d). This process represents an 

19 unprecedented opportunity for energy efficiency 

20 to be comprehensively embraced as the least cost, 

21 multi-pollutant solution, addressing not only CO2 

22 emissions but also facilitating compliance with 

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1 other environmental regulations such as SO2 and 

2 NOx. 

3 To conclude, energy efficiency is a 

4 proven economic development tool. Energy 

5 efficiency enhances the reliability of the 

6 electric grid, reduces power sector risks, 

7 improves public health, and supports job creation 

8 and economic growth. With more guidance and 

9 resources, energy efficiency can be equally 

10 effective emissions reduction tool. 

11 Thank you for your time.

12 MS. BANISTER: Thank you. Do you have a 

13 clarifying question?

14 MR. STENHOUSE: I do. I have one 

15 question. Can you clarify or elaborate a little 

16 on, when you say that a tool like OTAQ's MOVES 

17 would be useful here, what aspects or what 

18 characteristics are you thinking of?

19 MS. ZWEIG: And that's really where we're 

20 at the beginning stages of looking at what the 

21 potential solutions are, but where are 

22 opportunities to model and where EPA has already 

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1 done something like that, it means that there are 

2 inherent, connected opportunities that are worth 

3 exploring.

4 MR. STENHOUSE: Okay. Thanks very much.

5 MS. BANISTER: Thank you.

6 MS. ZWEIG: Thank you.

7 MS. BANISTER: Yes. You can go ahead. 

8 Just say your name for the court reporter, and 

9 spell it.

10 MR. VERNER: Great. My name is Bill 

11 Verner. That's V as in Victor-e-r-n-e-r, and I'm 

12 with Georgia Electric Membership Corporation.

13 MS. BANISTER: Thank you.

14 MR. VERNER: My name is Bill Verner and 

15 I'm Senior Vice President of External Affairs for 

16 Georgia EMC, the statewide trade association for 

17 the not-for-profit rural electric distribution 

18 and wholesale power supply cooperatives here in 

19 Georgia. I'm speaking on behalf of the more than 

20 5,000 employees, 386 directors, and 4-1/2 million 

21 Georgians who get their electricity from one of 

22 our 41 power distribution cooperatives, or EMCs 

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1 as we call them here.

2 We are deeply concerned about the impact 

3 of these regulations and what they will have on 

4 our ability to provide safe, affordable, and 

5 reliable electricity to our members. Nationally, 

6 93 percent of the worst persistent poverty 

7 counties are served by electric co-ops. Right 

8 here in Georgia, 53 percent of Georgia households 

9 -- that's more than one-half of the families in 

10 our great state -- spend an estimated average of 

11 22 percent of their after-tax income on energy. 

12 Almost 1 out of every 10 households in 

13 Georgia, many senior citizens and others on fixed 

14 incomes, have an after-tax annual income of 

15 $10,000, and these households spend a whopping 81 

16 percent of their annual income on energy. Our 

17 consumers simply cannot afford increased energy 

18 cost, especially when there is little, if any, 

19 corresponding environmental benefit.

20 Georgia's 41 EMCs are part of a network 

21 of more than 900 not-for-profit rural electric 

22 cooperatives that provide electric service to 

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1 over 42 million people in 47 states. Here in 

2 Georgia, those co-ops provide electric service to 

3 almost half the state's population, as I said 

4 earlier, across 73 percent of our state's land 

5 area. 

6 In our state, it's no secret that the 

7 economy, while showing signs of recovery, remains 

8 hard hit by the recession, and our state's 

9 unemployment rate remains among the highest in 

10 the country. Electric co-ops already face higher 

11 distribution costs because of lower consumer 

12 density -- about 10 customers per mile here in 

13 Georgia and less than that nationally -- and our 

14 obligation to serve the last mile to make sure 

15 that everyone has access to electricity. 

16 Electricity generation costs account for 

17 two-thirds of the total price of electric service 

18 that we provide to our members. Nationwide, the 

19 majority of electricity supplied to co-op members 

20 comes from coal and natural gas power plants, 

21 because they are an important part of the base 

22 load of the 24/7, instantaneous, reliable power 

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1 our customers require and deserve. 

2 As you can imagine, we're concerned about 

3 how these new EPA regulations will impact these 

4 power plants and the resulting price of electric 

5 service that we provide to our members. That why 

6 we respectfully ask the EPA to withdraw this 

7 proposed rule and work with us on a true, all-of8 the-above energy strategy. 

9 While we're in the middle of an 

10 exhaustive analysis of the proposed rule, here 

11 are just two specific concerns. First, under 

12 construction, nuclear should not be included in 

13 the calculation of state goals. EPA's inclusion 

14 of Vogtle 3 and 4, in setting Georgia's 

15 performance standard, is unfair and misguided. 

16 Rather than rewarding states and utilities, like 

17 us here in Georgia, that are the early movers in 

18 permitting and construction for this important 

19 type of zero-carbon emission generation, EPA's 

20 inclusion of under-construction nuclear in 

21 calculating state goals serves, instead, as a 

22 penalty. Georgia utilities and our consumers 

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1 should not be penalized for stepping up and 

2 spending over $14 billion on Vogtle 3 and 4, 

3 which will provide the state 2,200 megawatts of 

4 power with zero CO2 emissions. This is blatantly 

5 unfair.

6 Second, we're very concerned about the 

7 undeniable impact that EPA's Clean Power Plan 

8 will have on the cost of electricity to our 

9 member systems and their consumers. Over the 

10 last several years, for instance, Georgia co-ops 

11 have invested around $1 billion on environmental 

12 control equipment at Plants Scherer and Wansley, 

13 which we co-own with several other utilities, in 

14 order to comply with the existing EPA regs, 

15 which, importantly, this investment is using 

16 known technology at a known cost, yielding 

17 measurable benefits to the environment right here 

18 in Georgia. 

19 If EPA's Clean Power Plan, which the EPA 

20 itself acknowledges will have almost no benefit 

21 on global climate change, and some say may 

22 actually make global climate change worse, were 

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1 to be finalized as currently proposed, our 

2 consumers' $1 billion in capital investments for 

3 the compliance with existing EPA rules would have 

4 to be spread and recovered over significantly 

5 fewer megawatt-hours, resulting in an increase in 

6 the cost of electricity we generate, which is 

7 ultimately borne by our members.

8 I'm speaking on behalf of our EMCs and 

9 member owners here in Georgia, but it's not just 

10 a job for me. My maternal grandfather was one of 

11 seven men that put up $1 each as a dairyman, to 

12 bring electricity to the consumers in the area 

13 around Walton County and Monroe, Georgia, back in 

14 1936, and served as the co-op's first board 

15 president. 

16 I grew up on a beef cattle and poultry 

17 farm served by a co-op. We know that farmers, as 

18 they say, are the original environmentalists. 

19 We're stewards of the land around us, and that 

20 commitment continues to this day with those that 

21 lead our state's electric cooperatives.

22 Thank you very much.

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1 MS. BANISTER: What area did you say that 

2 you covered, the EMC?

3 MR. VERNER: In Georgia, we cover 73 

4 percent of the state's land area. We have 

5 consumers in all but 2 of the state's 159 

6 counties.

7 MS. BANISTER: Thank you. 

8 MR. STENHOUSE: I have a question, as 

9 well. You mentioned, I think, that some say that 

10 the proposal may actual worsen global climate 

11 change.

12 MR. VERNER: Yes.

13 MR. STENHOUSE: Can you clarify who 

14 you've heard say that and what, how it is that 

15 they view the proposal worsening climate change?

16 MR. VERNER: In fact, yesterday I believe 

17 there were comments from some elected officials 

18 here in Georgia and from the Consumer Energy 

19 Alliance. If you'll allow me to get back with 

20 you, specifically, on the names and the 

21 organizations, I will be happy to do so. But to 

22 elaborate on that, the assumption is that if we

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1 do, in fact, reduce the use of coal to generate 

2 electricity here in America, that the export of 

3 coal to other countries around the world, and the 

4 use of coal, is only going to continue to 

5 increase, thereby, quite likely, increasing 

6 global CO2 emissions without any measurable 

7 benefit here. Many of the countries using that 

8 coal also do not have the strict environmental 

9 controls we have here, so we would like the EPA 

10 to work with us on a solution that helps develop 

11 technology that we can roll out on a realistic 

12 and achievable timetable.

13 MR. STENHOUSE: Okay. Thank you very 

14 much.

15 MS. BANISTER: Thank you both for your 

16 comments.

17 MR. VERNER: Thank you.

18 MS. BANISTER: I would like to now invite 

19 Ray Tidwell and Walter Parker. Thank you both 

20 for joining us this afternoon. I can't read the 

21 shirts. We are one?

22 MR. TIDWELL: We are one.

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1 MS. BANISTER: Okay. Mr. Tidwell. Would 

2 you like to start? Just state your name as well 

3 as spell it for the court reporter.

4 MR. TIDWELL: Yes. My name is Ray 

5 Tidwell. T-i-d-w-e-l-l.

6 MS. BANISTER: You may begin.

7 MR. TIDWELL: Good morning. I am a 

8 retired coal miner from a member of the United 

9 Mine Workers of Local 9511, from the state of 

10 Alabama. I have worked 33 years in the mines and 

11 have been retired for 5 years. I have been a 

12 member of the United Mine Workers for 39 years. 

13 I currently receive a pension and health 

14 care benefits from the UMWA Health and Retirement 

15 Funds, benefits that I have earned through many 

16 years of hard work. I think it's very important 

17 for everyone here to understand that the pensions 

18 and the health care benefits that I receive, that 

19 come with years of sacrifice, they are the 

20 promise of the collective bargaining agreements 

21 between the UMWA and the co-operators, to provide 

22 economic security and health benefits to old 

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1 miners, when they retire from the industry.

2 But the EPA proposal here before us 

3 today, it looks like that it's going to 

4 completely do away with my retirement and my 

5 health care, and one day, as you all grow older 

6 and your work is done for the Federal Government, 

7 I hope you, too, can retire and enjoy the 

8 benefits of your hard work for the government.

9 I basically just want you all to look at 

10 what all it's going to cost if you go through 

11 with your EPA. There's going to be thousands 

12 lose their health care, lose their retirement. I 

13 heard through testimony yesterday that a lot of 

14 coal companies have went off and not done the 

15 reclamation work and made the country back 

16 livable and usable. 

17 The company I worked for is called 

18 Drummond Coal Company. I worked 27 years in a 

19 strip pit. When we got through, we went in and 

20 made it rolling hills, and I don't know the name 

21 of the hunting company but they put a hunting 

22 company out there. Hundreds have enjoyed that 

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1 property, hunting. Even famous athletes like Bo 

2 Jackson has come out there and hunt.

3 I live on a 550-mile lake in Curry, 

4 Alabama. It's called Smith Lake. For 20 years, 

5 there was a 1570 dragline ran right beside that 

6 Smith Lake. There's thousands enjoying that lake 

7 today. That mine did not hurt that lake in one 

8 form or fashion.

9 So, once again, when you make your 

10 decisions, I want you to really look at what 

11 you're going to cost in people's pensions, and 

12 what you're going to cost in people's health 

13 care, what all it's going to do. 

14 Also, I have a question for you all. As 

15 we set out to make better air for the whole 

16 country, are you going to be able to regulate all 

17 the new coal-burning furnaces that's going online 

18 in Germany? Are you going to be able to regulate 

19 all of the new coal-burning furnaces going online 

20 in China? Are you going to be able to regulate 

21 all the new coal-burning furnaces that goes 

22 online in Mexico? 

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1 And with that I end my conversation. I 

2 thank you for your time.

3 MS. BANISTER: Thank you, sir. Mr. 

4 Parker, would you state your name and spell it 

5 for the court reporter?

6 MR. PARKER: My name is Walter Parker, P7 a-r-k-e-r, and I thank you for my time here. 

8 When I heard that the EPA was holding hearings 

9 about the Clean Power Plan, I immediately began 

10 trying to contact the agency in hopes of being 

11 able to speak against this rule. I feel that 

12 this rule, as written, is misguided. It punishes 

13 workers in the United States and does little, if 

14 any, for the environment. 

15 The rule proposed is to reduce carbon 

16 emissions globally by dismantling the American 

17 coal industry. I have to question why a U.S. 

18 agency like the EPA would ignore the evidence 

19 that India and China intend on ramping up their 

20 coal usage, regardless of what the United States 

21 does. They are increasing coal mining and 

22 imports, and burning coal with few pollution 

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1 controls, at a rate that already far surpasses 

2 our country's usage.

3 Maybe I should not be surprised. After 

4 all, the EPA has, for years, not hidden its 

5 intentions to shut down coal mining in this

6 country, seeing our industry as obsolete, despite 

7 the thousands of Americans it employs, and now 

8 you expect us to go away quietly. I can assure 

9 you that will not happen.

10 I have to ask -- does EPA see all miners, 

11 regardless of facts to the contrary, as dirty 

12 polluters who must be eliminated? Many of your 

13 strongest supporters in the environmental 

14 movement do. Do you actually believe we spend 

15 our lives with our heads in the sand, not seeing 

16 what is happening around us? 

17 In the end, most people here will not 

18 wonder or care what happens to my wife and kids 

19 if I no longer have a job. No one is thinking 

20 about the burden my family and my coworkers will 

21 face if we no longer have a job, a steady 

22 paycheck, or if there are no more contributions 

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1 to the UMWA Health and Retirement Funds. No one 

2 will care until the money runs out, and the 

3 government, which our administration is looking 

4 forward to, which is killing our jobs, must pay 

5 the price in unemployment benefits, welfare, and 

6 public assistant, which is running rampant in our 

7 country today.

8 I am proud that I have been able to take 

9 care of my family because of the work I do. I am 

10 proud to be a miner. I have never asked for 

11 handouts from the people around me or from the 

12 government. I want to pay my own way. I want to 

13 work. I feel pride in my work. I want to be 

14 able to continue my profession and produce coal 

15 to power this nation, and I'm sorry that I get 

16 emotional but I can't help it.

17 In the end, I don't see the agency's 

18 proposed policy as a real solution. We will lose 

19 what we have worked for all of our lives and our 

20 communities will struggle in poverty. How can 

21 the EPA call this a success story?

22 Thank you.

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1 MR. BANISTER: Thank you, sir. Do you 

2 all have any clarifying comments or questions? 

3 Thank you both for coming today. Thank you.

4 I would now like to invite Vernon 

5 Bankston and MaKara Rumley, R-u-m-l-e-y. Thank 

6 you both for joining us this morning. Mr. 

7 Bankston, would you please state your name and 

8 spell it for the court reporter?

9 MR. BANKSTON: My name is Vernon 

10 Bankston. I'm a retired coal miner. It's 

11 spelled B-a-n-k-s-t-o-n. I've been a member of 

12 the United Mine Workers since February 26, 1957. 

13 I was fortunate enough to work, lacking 2 months, 

14 41 years in the coal mines. I had one injury. I 

15 had to have back surgery. I went back to work 

16 after I had the back surgery and never had 

17 another problem with it, due to the good medical 

18 care that we have. 

19 When you stop and think about all the 

20 things that's happening in this world today, you 

21 look around and you see the many, many people 

22 that are in want, and now we have a group of 

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1 people that's trying to shut down the livelihood 

2 of thousands of people. In the state of Alabama, 

3 from 1970 through 1977, I was employed by the 

4 United Mine Workers union. I was a district 

5 representative. I handled grievances and helped 

6 organize coal mines. During that time, in the 

7 state of Alabama, we had approximately 18,000 

8 working coal miners. Today, in the state of 

9 Alabama, we have less than 4,000 working coal 

10 miners. 

11 When you stop and think about the things 

12 that have transpired and the things that have 

13 happened, we need to keep in mind that the 

14 livelihood of the working class of people in the 

15 United States of America is the most important 

16 thing that we have going, whether in the state of 

17 Alabama Senate or in the United States Senate and 

18 Congress. We need to remember the working people 

19 who are out there paying the taxes that keeps 

20 this country going.

21 EPA is trying to do some things that's 

22 going to shut down a lot of plants. It's going 

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1 to eliminate a lot of jobs for a lot of working 

2 people. When you stop and think about -- I've 

3 been a member of the Mine Workers 57 years. God 

4 blessed me with a daughter and a son. I tried my 

5 best to raise them in church. We still go to 

6 church. In fact, my son is a preacher. When we 

7 stop and think about all the things that's 

8 happened, we need to remember, it's the youth of 

9 this day that's important to this country. If 

10 the good Lord is willing, come November 6th of 

11 this year, I'll be 79 years old. God's blessed 

12 me greatly. 

13 In 1996, they flew me from my hometown, 

14 well, from Jasper, Alabama, which is close to 

15 where I live, in a helicopter, to Birmingham, to 

16 the hospital, with a heart attack. They done 

17 five bypasses. I went back to the mines and 

18 worked a year after that. Due to the Mine 

19 Workers health care, you know how much that 

20 operation cost me? Not one penny. I kept up 

21 with it from the insurance company, when they'd 

22 send me statements showing what they had paid. I 

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1 was in the hospital for 8 days. The total bill -

2 - and this was in 1996 -- the total bill for that 

3 week's stay in the hospital at that time was 

4 $98,000, and I didn't have to pay a dime. 

5 When I go to the doctor today, because of 

6 the United Mine Workers Health and Retirement 

7 Fund, I pay a $12 copayment. When I go to the 

8 drugstore and get some of my medication that I 

9 have to have filled -- I've got one medication 

10 that the doctor's got me on; I get them in 90 

11 days, for a 90-day supply -- that one 

12 prescription costs $700 and something. It costs 

13 me $5 out of my pocket, is what it's costing me. 

14 That's because of one thing, ladies and 

15 gentlemen, the United Mine Workers of America. 

16 We are out there for one reason, that is to give 

17 benefits to the working men and women that work 

18 in the coal mines of this great nation that we 

19 live in. 

20 I live right now -- I can see two huge 

21 Alabama Power plant smokestacks from my house, 

22 where I live. One of them has been there as long 

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1 as I can remember, and the other one hasn't been 

2 there that long. It's practically new, but it's 

3 been there several years. But right now, the one 

4 that's been there for years is called the Gorgas 

5 Power Plant. Right now, the power company is 

6 spending $300 million to put the stuff that they 

7 need in there to eliminate all this that's going 

8 out. 

9 We need to remember that not only will 

10 coal miners lose their jobs when this EPA thing, 

11 if it is approved and passed, and I'm begging you 

12 today, think about all the people that's out 

13 there. And I know the bell's done rung for my 

14 time, but the wonderful part about the United 

15 Mine Workers -- if I leave this walk of life, my 

16 wife will still be secure. She will draw 75 

17 percent of my pension that I'm drawing from the 

18 Mine Workers, and she will still have her health

19 care and coverage that we have today.

20 I thank you for the privilege of being 

21 here today. Remember one thing -- what you do 

22 speaks so loud, I can't hear what you're saying. 

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1 Let that soak in for a little while. And one 

2 other thing -- if you had the choice of living to 

3 be 75 or 80 years old and maybe die of some kind 

4 of lung disease, or live to be 20 years old and 

5 die of starvation, which would you take?

6 Thank you very much.

7 MS. BANISTER: Thank you, sir. Ms. 

8 Rumley? Would you state your name as well as 

9 spell it for the court reporter.

10 MS. RUMLEY: Makara, M-a-K-a-r-a, last 

11 name Rumley, R-u-m as in Mary-l-e-y.

12 MS. BANISTER: You may begin.

13 MS. RUMLEY: Hello. My name is MaKara 

14 Rumley and I'm an environmental attorney working 

15 at GreenLaw, a nonprofit environmental law firm 

16 here in the state of Georgia. Thank you for 

17 giving me the opportunity to share my comments 

18 with you today. 

19 Climate change is a nonpartisan, neutral 

20 phenomenon. The changes in climates are 

21 experienced by all of us equally, but its impact 

22 can be disparate. To address the existence of 

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1 climate change, you only have to talk to farmers 

2 in south Georgia, whose crops are affected by 

3 drought and low water levels, or see the ravaged 

4 neighborhoods of Hurricane Katrina and Hurricane 

5 Sandy to know that significant changes in our 

6 climate are occurring, not to mention the sound, 

7 internationally agreed upon scientific support 

8 for its existence. 

9 A new study by researchers at the 

10 University of Minnesota have uncovered a 

11 disquieting racial gap when it comes to exposure 

12 to air pollution. By examining air pollution 

13 exposure across racial, economic, educational, 

14 and other relevant categories, researchers 

15 realize that race and income have the greatest 

16 impact on exposure, with people of color being

17 exposed to 38 percent more outdoor nitrogen oxide 

18 from vehicle exhaust and power plants than their 

19 white counterparts. Exposure to pollution has 

20 been linked to higher rates of asthma, heart 

21 disease, and even death.

22 The focus of my work is to use the law to 

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1 help reduce the disproportionate exposure to 

2 pollution that minority and low-income Georgians 

3 experience. The proposed plan must consider the 

4 principles of environmental justice and climate 

5 justice for guidance. This analysis should be 

6 made mandatory for the state implementation 

7 planning process. The EPA should not miss the 

8 opportunity to put some enforceability into the 

9 intent of Executive Order 12898. 

10 To that end, the environmental justice 

11 analysis can only be executed if there are 

12 environmental justice leaders and advocates 

13 participating in the state implementation 

14 process. Currently, this plan is slanted towards 

15 cap and trade being the most viable option to 

16 meet carbon emissions. That approach will be 

17 beneficial on a global scale, once achieved. 

18 Keeping that in mind, if cap and trade is 

19 implemented, there must be controls integrated 

20 into the process to make sure that total 

21 reductions in carbon dioxide don't lead to 

22 disparate impacts of other pollution, like 

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1 sulfur, oxides, nitrogen oxides, and particulate 

2 matter, in environmentally stressed communities.

3 A possible solution could be to create an 

4 emissions or operating threshold that would 

5 mandate additional monitoring of any fossil fuel 

6 unit under this proposed plan, to make sure that 

7 our environmentally sensitive communities do not 

8 have to absorb the local burden of increased 

9 emissions while overall emissions have decreased.

10 We must not ignore the impact of other 

11 operations that cause greenhouse gas emissions, 

12 such as biomass gas-to-energy projects. These 

13 facilities create a significant amount of 

14 emissions and are also largely housed in 

15 communities of color across the country. 

16 Citizens are suffering from the polluted air that 

17 they have no choice but to breathe. Let's close 

18 the climate gap by coordinating reductions in 

19 greenhouse gas emissions with opportunities to 

20 reduce toxic pollutants in neighborhoods with the 

21 dirtiest air.

22 I applaud the EPA's courageous effort in 

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1 taking the first step towards urging the United 

2 States to do our part in reducing carbon 

3 emissions that ultimately helps the entire 

4 planet. The opposition will press the business 

5 argument, stressing government intervention on 

6 free enterprise and that people will lose jobs. 

7 In your resolve to create a reasonable and 

8 effective plan, please remember that people are 

9 losing lives.

10 Thank you.

11 MS. BANISTER: Thank you. Any clarifying 

12 comments or questions? Thank you both for coming 

13 today. Thank you for your comments. I would now 

14 like to invite Vicky Sullivan and Jacqueline 

15 Patterson to the podium.

16 Thank you both for coming this morning. 

17 Ms. Sullivan, we're going to start with you. If 

18 you would state your name and spell it for the 

19 court reporter, please.

20 MS. SULLIVAN: Sure. My name is Vicky, 

21 V-i-c-k-y, Sullivan, S-u-l-l-i-v-a-n. I am 

22 Associate Vice President for Policy Analysis at 

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1 the American Coalition for Clean Coal 

2 Electricity. Our members include investor-owned 

3 utilities, rural electric cooperatives, coal 

4 producers, railroads, and manufacturers that are 

5 involved in providing affordable and reliable 

6 electricity for coal. Because of its many 

7 serious flaws, ACCCE urges EPA to withdraw its 

8 proposal. I will highlight a few of these flaws 

9 briefly in the short time available.

10 First, the Clean Air Act does not allow 

11 EPA to regulate greenhouse gas emissions from 

12 existing coal-fired power plants under Section 

13 111(d) because coal-fired power plants are 

14 already regulated by EPA under Section 112 of the 

15 Clear Air Act. Recently attorneys general from 

16 nine states filed an amicus brief to stop EPA's 

17 proposal for this very reason, stating that the 

18 proposal violates the literal terms of the Clean 

19 Air Act. 

20 Even if EPA believes it has the basic 

21 authority to regulate, Section 111(d) allows EPA 

22 to set emissions standards based solely on

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1 emission reductions that can be achieved inside 

2 the fence. However, this proposal requires 

3 substantial reductions outside the fence. Last 

4 year, before the proposal was issued, attorneys 

5 general from 17 states warned EPA that the agency 

6 does not have authority to require emission 

7 reductions outside the fence.

8 Second, EPA's proposal will cause 

9 unacceptable economic impacts, including higher 

10 energy prices. ACCCE sponsored extensive 

11 analysis of an NRDC proposal, which served as the 

12 blueprint for EPA's proposal. Our analysis 

13 projected, among other impacts, double-digit 

14 electricity price increases in most states and 

15 substantial increases in natural gas prices 

16 nationwide. 

17 Higher energy prices have a 

18 disproportionately greater impact on lower-income 

19 and middle-income families. Lower-income 

20 families are especially vulnerable to higher 

21 energy costs because energy represents a larger 

22 portion of their budgets and reduces the amount 

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1 of income they can spend on food, housing, health 

2 care, and other necessities. It is also worth 

3 noting that states with carbon constraints are 

4 already experiencing significantly higher 

5 electricity prices. 

6 Three months ago, electricity prices in 

7 California were 17 percent higher than the 

8 national average. In the New England states, 

9 part of the Regional Greenhouse Gas Initiative, 

10 had 52 percent higher electricity prices.

11 Third, EPA has proposed to substitute its 

12 judgment for that of public utility commissions, 

13 utility companies, grid operators, and consumers 

14 across the nation by presuming the appropriate 

15 amounts of electricity from coal, natural gas, 

16 nuclear, and renewables, as well as presuming how 

17 much electricity consumers should use in each 

18 state. In fact, Administrator McCarthy testified 

19 recently that EPA wants to consumers to use less 

20 energy. 

21 Although EPA claims states have 

22 flexibility to determine how to meet the EPA 

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1 goals, the magnitude of emission reductions 

2 leaves most states little alternatives but to 

3 follow EPA's mandates.

4 Fourth, EPA bases its proposal on flawed 

5 information and assumptions for the four building 

6 blocks that are the basis for each state's 

7 emissions target. 

8 Finally, despite enormous economic 

9 impacts, the proposal will have no meaningful 

10 effect on global climate change because the 

11 proposal will reduce global greenhouse gas 

12 emissions by less than 1 percent. If EPA's own 

13 scientific assessments are correct, the emission 

14 reductions from this proposal will result in a 

15 meaningless 1-percent reduction in atmospheric 

16 CO2 concentrations, an insignificant reduction in 

17 global average temperature of 2/100ths of a 

18 degree, and a trivial reduction in sea level rise 

19 of 1/100th of an inch, the thickness of three 

20 sheets of paper.

21 In conclusion, EPA's proposal has 

22 fundamental flaws that cannot be fixed by simply 

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1 making changes to it. Instead, we urge EPA to 

2 withdraw the proposal.

3 Thank you again for the opportunity to 

4 speak.

5 MS. BANISTER: Thank you so much. Mrs. 

6 Patterson, would you state your name and spell it 

7 for the court reporter?

8 MS. PATTERSON: Sure. My name is 

9 Jacqueline Patterson, and the spelling is J-a-c10 q-u-i P-a-t-t-e-r-s-o-n. 

11 So, in February of 2011, my father began 

12 to complain of a cough, which worsened over 6 

13 months until he was home-bound and tethered to an 

14 oxygen machine. He was severely winded, just 

15 from walking from the living room to the kitchen 

16 to get a glass of water. Dad's diagnosis was 

17 pulmonary fibrosis. 

18 My father never smoked a day in his life. 

19 His doctor stated that the scar tissue in his 

20 lungs was likely due to past exposure to 

21 environmental toxins from his work place or 

22 otherwise. Dad spent 40 years residing within 10 

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1 miles of the Fisk and Crawford coal plants in 

2 Chicago. We laid my father to rest on September 

3 20, 2011. How many more people must we bury 

4 before we are granted equal protection under the 

5 law?

6 Approximately 68 percent of African 

7 Americans live within 30 miles of a coal plant. 

8 The impact is clear in the rates of respiratory 

9 illnesses in African Americans. Even though we 

10 have lower rates of smoking, we are more likely 

11 to die of lung disease. Nationwide, African 

12 American children are twice as likely to die of 

13 asthma and three time as likely to be admitted to 

14 the hospital for an asthma attack. We also see 

15 high rates of asthma rates within Latino American 

16 and Native American populations, who are also 

17 disproportionately exposed to coal pollution.

18 Carbon may not directly cause these 

19 health conditions but it creates what scientists 

20 call dome, that traps, concentrates, and 

21 intensifies the other toxins we breathe. With 

22 the mercury, arsenic, lead, dioxins, and other 

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1 pollutants that come from coal plants in 

2 communities nationwide, these domes are, in 

3 effect, creating lethal gas chambers for 

4 communities that are host to these facilities. 

5 At the same time, carbon dioxide is the number 

6 one driver of climate change, and these plants 

7 are the leading source of carbon dioxide. Again, 

8 climate change affects us all, but its effects 

9 are hardest felt by communities and people who 

10 are politically, economically, physically, and 

11 socially vulnerable. 

12 When I did hurricane relief after Katrina 

13 and Rita, the throngs of folks who walked through 

14 the doors of the disaster recovery center were 

15 largely low-income and largely African American. 

16 I also met scores of people with hearing 

17 impairments, with no qualified interpreter, to 

18 help them navigate the system. 

19 I encountered people with HIV and AIDS, 

20 who went weeks without access to their life21 preserving anti-retroviral drugs. I met women 

22 who encountered sexual assault in the aftermath 

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1 of the disaster. I met hundreds of people who 

2 had to completely start over after only escaping 

3 with their lives, and scientists say that 

4 Katrina, Rita, Sandy, and even the Colorado 

5 floods, and more, are only the tip of the 

6 iceberg.

7 Growing up on the south side of Chicago, 

8 I lived in a food desert, like so many 

9 communities of color and low-income communities. 

10 This means that we had better access to Doritos 

11 or Cheetos than broccoli or strawberries. We 

12 already see how this plays out for our 

13 communities who are suffering from heightened 

14 rates of obesity, as well as hunger, and all of 

15 the health conditions that result from poor diet, 

16 such as diabetes, heart disease, high blood 

17 pressure, et cetera.

18 Affordable access to nutritious foods 

19 will only lessen as climate change affects crops. 

20 In recent years, we've seen farmers from Illinois 

21 to Iowa to Mississippi and beyond lose crops, 

22 both to flooding and drought. Again, scientists 

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1 say we've only begun to see these impacts. I 

2 visited with coastal communities from Florida to 

3 Louisiana to North Carolina to New York, some of 

4 whom are already experiencing coastal erosion, 

5 and several of whom are facing imminent 

6 displacement in the next 20 years, due to sea 

7 level rise and storm surge.

8 The cost of inaction on carbon pollution 

9 is the health, livelihood, culture, economic, and 

10 social well being of communities worldwide, with 

11 vulnerable communities being hit first and worst. 

12 Therefore, we need strong carbon pollution 

13 standards to slow the path of devastation on 

14 which we are already recklessly traveling. 

15 Strong means that we aren't steering the ship 

16 from one disaster to another, by myopically 

17 shifting to false solutions. 

18 Even if costly clean coal technologies 

19 were proven to be effective in capturing carbon, 

20 that wouldn't help the 76,000 coal miners who 

21 have died of black lung disease since 1968, or 

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1 laced water contaminated by coal ash ponds.

2 Shifting to fracking continues to emit 

3 carbon from venting and flaring. It has been 

4 known to contaminate aquifers with a mystery 

5 cocktail of toxins, and may even contribute to 

6 the increase of seismic activity that is causing 

7 earthquakes from Nebraska to Ohio and beyond. 

8 The folks near the Fukushima Daiichi Plan would 

9 certainly have a cautionary tale about increasing 

10 our reliance on nuclear energy, particularly 

11 given that a number of America's nuclear reactors 

12 are built on earthquake fault lines already being 

13 disrupted by fracking.

14 We must establish aggressive targets for 

15 pollution reduction and significantly increase 

16 our focus and action on energy efficiency and 

17 clean energy. The National Renewable Energy 

18 Laboratory has found that we have vast amounts of 

19 solar, wind, and geothermal potential, some of 

20 which is already being successfully harnessed, 

21 creating new jobs. That's where we need to focus 

22 investment as we shift from harmful coal-based 

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1 energy production processes.

2 Finally, we must ensure that each state's 

3 development of implementation plans is done 

4 inclusively, so that equity-based input is heeded 

5 and all stakeholders are heard, particularly the 

6 communities that are most impacted by coal 

7 pollution directly as well as indirectly.

8 Thank you.

9 MS. BANISTER: Thank you. Any clarifying 

10 questions?

11 MR. STENHOUSE: I do. I have one. I 

12 wanted to ask Ms. Sullivan, you mentioned some 

13 electricity rate comparisons you'd made between 

14 states that have a carbon reduction program and 

15 states that do not, presumably, or maybe the rest 

16 of the country as a whole. Is that from a 

17 particular point in time where you were comparing 

18 rates?

19 MS. SULLIVAN: Those data are from EIA, 

20 the Energy Information Administration's -- it's 

21 either Monthly Energy Review or Electric Power 

22 Monthly, and they publish that every month, and 

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1 it was in April of this year, and we compared the 

2 nationwide average electricity rate to California 

3 and then to the New England states, and it's on 

4 the Internet.

5 MR. STENHOUSE: Okay. Thank you very 

6 much.

7 MS. BANISTER: Thank you both for joining 

8 us this morning. We are going to take a break 

9 for lunch. We will resume back at, I think it is 

10 12:06, so we will resume back at 1:06, so about 5 

11 after 1, back in this room. Thank you.

12 [Lunch recess taken from 12:06 to 1:05.]

13 AFTERNOON SESSION

14 MS. BANISTER: We'll be starting in a few 

15 minutes. 

16 Good afternoon. My name is Beverly 

17 Banister. I am the Air, Pesticides, and Toxics 

18 Management Division Director here in Region 4, 

19 here in the Atlanta office, and I'm one of the 

20 chairs of today's public hearing. Thank you for 

21 coming today. Joining me on the panel this 

22 afternoon are Jeaneanne Gettle, who is the Deputy 

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1 Director for the Air, Pesticides, and Toxics 

2 Management Division Director here in Atlanta in 

3 Region 4, and also Jeb Stenhouse, the Air Program 

4 Manager with the Office of Air and Radiation, and 

5 he's part of our rule-writing team.

6 We are here this afternoon to listen to 

7 your comments on two proposed rules to reduce 

8 carbon pollution from power plants. EPA 

9 announced both of these rules on June 2, 2014. 

10 Power plants are the largest source of carbon 

11 pollution in the U.S., accounting for one-third 

12 of all the domestic greenhouse gas emissions. 

13 The first rule is EPA's proposed Clean 

14 Power Plan for existing power plants. This 

15 proposal consists of two main parts: state16 specific goals to lower carbon pollution from 

17 power plants and guidelines to help states 

18 develop their plans for meeting those goals. 

19 This proposal gives states flexibility in 

20 determining how to meet their goals. States 

21 would choose what goes into the plans, that show 

22 how they would achieve the needed reductions and 

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1 meet their goals by 2030.

2 The second rule is EPA's proposed rule to 

3 address carbon dioxide emissions from modified 

4 and reconstructed power plants. This rule would 

5 set emission limits for two groups of power 

6 plants: those that make physical or operational 

7 changes that increase the plant's maximal 

8 achievable hourly rate of emissions, and those 

9 that replace components to such an extent that 

10 the new components exceed 50 percent of the 

11 capital costs of an entirely new comparable 

12 facility.

13 If you would like more details on either 

14 of these proposed rules, there are fact sheets 

15 available near the registration desk.

16 Today's hearing is one of four public 

17 hearings across the country this week on the two 

18 proposed rules. We have had tremendous interest 

19 in each of the hearings, and I'd like to thank 

20 you all for taking time out of your day to join 

21 us and to share your comments. We have a lot of 

22 people that have signed up to speak, and we want 

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1 to hear from all of you, so before we get 

2 started, I'd like to go through a few 

3 housekeeping items and ground rules that will 

4 help make today's hearing run smoothly.

5 First, let me be sure that you have 

6 checked in at the registration desk. Even if 

7 you're not planning to speak, we would like you 

8 still to check in at the desk. If you have 

9 signed up to speak online or by phone but you 

10 haven't told us that you're here, please step out 

11 now and check in, and let the EPA staff know that 

12 you've arrived.

13 Secondly, if you are a speaker, you have 

14 been given a room letter when you checked in, 

15 either Room A or Room B. This is Room A.

16 All right. Let's talk a little bit about 

17 how the hearing will work this afternoon. I will 

18 call speakers up in pairs. When your name is 

19 called, please come to the table at the front of 

20 the room. When I call on you to speak, please 

21 state your name and spell it for the court 

22 reporter. Your comments will be transcribed and 

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1 included in a record of comments on the proposed 

2 rule. Each speaker will have 5 minutes to give 

3 comments. We have a light to help you know how 

4 much time you have left. When light turns from 

5 green to yellow, that means you have 1 minute 

6 remaining. When it turns red, that's the signal 

7 to wrap up your testimony. The light will flash 

8 red and beep when you have spoken for 5 minutes. 

9 Then it will be time to stop.

10 When you are finished speaking, please 

11 remain at the table until the person next to you 

12 has completed his or her testimony. We are here 

13 to listen to you today. However, a panel member 

14 may ask you a question or ask you to clarify your 

15 comments. I will then call up the next pair of 

16 speakers, and so on. If you have a written copy 

17 of your testimony, please give it to the staff at 

18 the registration table before you leave today.

19 Because of the large number of people 

20 that have signed up to speak, and to be fair to 

21 everyone, we are going to strictly adhere to the 

22 5-minute limit. If you have additional comments 

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1 that you'd like to make, we encourage you to 

2 submit them in writing.

3 Let me assure you that EPA gives just as 

4 much considerations to comments that we receive 

5 in writing as we do comments we receive at public 

6 hearings like this one, so if you have more that 

7 you would like to say, please submit it. Your 

8 comments will be reviewed. There is still plenty 

9 of time to get written comments in, and then 

10 there are comment cards available at the 

11 registration desk. Comments must be received by 

12 October 16, 2014. We will put any written 

13 comments submitted today in the official docket 

14 for the proposed rule. Instructions for 

15 submitting written comments in other ways are 

16 available in the materials near the registration 

17 desk. 

18 We are scheduled to go to 8 p.m. tonight, 

19 and we will probably take a break around 3:00 or 

20 3:30, but we will keep you posted as this 

21 afternoon goes on. 

22 If you have any questions during the day, 

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1 please see the staff at the registration desk and 

2 someone will try to help you.

3 Finally, I want to ask each of you to be 

4 respectful of everyone who speaks today. We have 

5 people with a wide variety of views in the 

6 audience, and we want to hear from all of you, so 

7 we can do that and be fair to everyone, we ask 

8 that everyone listen quietly. Even applause can 

9 slow things down, and we want to hear from 

10 everyone who has signed up to speak.

11 So, again, thank you all for coming and 

12 being a part of this session this afternoon. So 

13 let's get started.

14 I would like to invite up Steve Willis 

15 and Been Myers to the front. Welcome. Thank you 

16 all for coming and sharing your comments this 

17 afternoon. Mr. Willis, if you could start. If 

18 you could state your name and also spell it for 

19 the court reporter.

20 MR. WILLIS: Okay. My name is Steve 

21 Willis, and that's S-t-e-p-h-e-n, Willis, W-i-l22 l-i-s.

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1 MS. BANISTER: Okay. You may begin.

2 MR. WILLIS: I'm the Vice Chair of the 

3 Georgia Sierra Club, and I appreciate this 

4 opportunity to say a few words. 

5 I've been following this issue for a long 

6 time and I think it's worth pointing out that the 

7 AJC, the Atlanta Journal-Constitution, the local 

8 main paper here, had a major editorial yesterday, 

9 that claimed that they expect energy prices to go 

10 up 30 percent because of this proposed 

11 regulation, if it's enacted. Today, the same 

12 paper had an article saying that they actually 

13 think maybe prices will go down if this act is 

14 enacted. 

15 The Koch brothers' Citizens for 

16 Prosperity, they've put a lot of people out 

17 there, spent a lot of money saying that our 

18 civilization and economy as we know it is going 

19 to fall apart if this regulation goes forward. 

20 Power Magazine, the mainline magazine for the 

21 power industry, it said, in this last issue, it 

22 does not see any significant impact of this 

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1 particular regulation. 

2 So why is there so much discontinuity? 

3 And I think the reason is a very simple reason. 

4 The reason is there's no penalty for lying. 

5 People can lie and lie and lie and nothing 

6 happens to them. They're not held responsible. 

7 Even the media doesn't hold them responsible for 

8 their lies. And I think that anybody that's been 

9 following this issue knows at the entire world 

10 scientific community, with almost no exceptions, 

11 has been saying, for a long time, we're facing 

12 dire consequences because of our destruction of 

13 our own atmosphere, and in the concomitant 

14 destruction of our oceans through acidification, 

15 and the combined destruction of our coastal lands 

16 because of sea rise. 

17 There's no discussion. There's no 

18 problem in the scientific community. They know 

19 what's going to happen. The only thing is that 

20 their predictions keep falling short. Actuality 

21 continues to be much, much worse than their 

22 predictions. Every year, every decade it's worse 

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1 than they predicted.

2 So we've got science and we've got public 

3 relations, and we've got politics, and I am here 

4 to request that our government officials, at EPA 

5 and throughout the government, who are 

6 responsible for understanding what they're doing 

7 and analyzing and assaying what's happening in 

8 our world and our economy, to get back to 

9 science.

10 I worked in Washington, D.C. for 25 years 

11 and I know what a sound grounding in science and 

12 truthful, honest investigation that EPA was based 

13 on, and over the years it's become politicized. 

14 It's become -- yeah, well, these are the truths 

15 but this is the political truth, this is the 

16 scientific truth, this is the Koch brothers' P.R. 

17 truth. And I say I request that you get back to 

18 your roots. You have got to become the front 

19 line. You've got to become the heroes of 

20 changing the direction of the biggest polluter 

21 and consumption in the world. That's the United 

22 States of America. 

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1 And that's essentially the essence of 

2 what I think this whole hearing process should be 

3 about, to say it's in your hands. If you decide 

4 to go with the political bit, or the P.R. bit, we 

5 are likely to have a very dismal future. But if 

6 you say, "We're going to stick to the facts and 

7 we're going to enact regulations that do the very 

8 best we can to make a good future for ourselves, 

9 and have justice for future generations," I say 

10 you are the ones that have to take the lead in 

11 it. And I know you're going to take a lot of 

12 heat, but if you don't, it'll be one of the 

13 greatest failures, I think, in history.

14 Thank you.

15 MR. BANISTER: Thank you. Do we have any 

16 clarifying comments or questions? Mr. Myers, if 

17 you could say your name and spell it for the 

18 court reporter.

19 MR. MYERS: Sure. Good afternoon. My 

20 name is Ben Myers, B-e-n M-y-e-r-s. I am the 

21 Director of Governmental and Political Affairs 

22 for the International Brotherhood of Electrical 

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1 Workers, Local 613, in Atlanta, Georgia. On 

2 behalf of the approximately 4,300 active and 

3 retired members of Local 613, I would like to 

4 thank you for the opportunity to testify 

5 regarding the EPA Clean Power Plan.

6 Please know the majority of Local 613 

7 members are construction electricians, linemen, 

8 and apprentices who are employed by electrical 

9 contractors throughout the Atlanta metropolitan 

10 area and northern Georgia. Local 613 represents 

11 voice, data, and video technicians who work in 

12 the construction industry, as well.

13 Coal has been good to members of Local 

14 613. Many of our members have been involved in 

15 the construction and maintenance of numerous 

16 coal-fired power houses in Georgia. Much like 

17 the operation of a coal-fired plant, construction 

18 and maintenance of coal generation is labor19 intensive, as well. 

20 Unfortunately, the Clean Power Plan 

21 imperils a great source of work for Local 613 

22 members and threatens the reliability of our 

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1 nation's electrical grid. Naturally, the EPA has 

2 stated the Clean Power Plan will lead to the 

3 closure of 41 to 49 gigawatts of coal-fired 

4 generation capacity by 2020. This will lead to 

5 the loss of 52,000 permanent, direct, and an 

6 additional 100,000 indirect jobs. 

7 In Georgia, the Clean Power Plan will 

8 close approximately six plants, combined. The 

9 state will lose approximately 1,300 direct and 

10 2,500 indirect jobs. For Local 613 members, the 

11 plan will be ongoing, for when these plants are 

12 closed, any further maintenance or repair will be 

13 work that is lost forever.

14 Sorry. I'm not used to doing this.

15 MS. BANISTER: That's okay.

16 MR. MYERS: In addition to lost 

17 employment, the Clean Power Plan will threaten 

18 the reliability of our nation's electrical grid. 

19 One needs only to look up north at the effects of 

20 last winter's polar vortex. At its peak, during 

21 one of the coldest, snowiest winters on record, 

22 PJM, a regional transmission authority whose 

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1 jurisdiction includes parts of the Mid-Atlantic 

2 and Eastern Midwestern states, had as little as 

3 700 megawatts of reserve power. 

4 We know that the compliance with the 

5 Mercury and Air Toxic Standards will close 

6 approximately 56 gigawatts of coal-fired 

7 generation. Added to the additional 49 gigawatts 

8 from the Clean Power Plan, it is clear the U.S. 

9 electrical utility sector may have a difficult 

10 time meeting the nation's needs during a winter 

11 cold snap or a summer heat wave.

12 For the loss of 3,800 jobs in Georgia, 

13 Local 613 members have a reasonable expectation 

14 there will be a worthwhile drop in CO2 emissions. 

15 Unfortunately, this is not the case. For all the 

16 pain the Clean Power Plan will cause, there will 

17 be almost no reduction in CO2 emissions. 

18 The problem is not with the United 

19 States. The CO2 emissions have been flat for 24 

20 years. The problem is with the rest of the 

21 world, where CO2 emissions have risen 

22 approximately 44 percent since 1990. Please see 

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1 the graph included with my testimony. It is 

2 impossible for the United States to solve the 

3 world's global warming problems on its own. Any 

4 meaningful attempt to address global greenhouse 

5 gas emissions must be incorporated with America's 

6 trading partners, particularly China and India.

7 Thank you again for the opportunity to 

8 testify. I respectfully suggest EPA reconsider 

9 the Clean Power Plan, taking into account its 

10 significant negative impact to the economy and 

11 grid reliability. Thank you for hearing me.

12 MS. BANISTER: Thank you. Any clarifying 

13 comments or questions? Thank you both for coming 

14 this afternoon and than you for your comments.

15 I would like to now invite up, I think 

16 it's Marie, M-a-r-r-e, Mertz, M-e-r-t-z, and 

17 Genna Garland, G-e-n-n-a Garland. Marie Metz? 

18 Yes. Thank you. I apologize for mispronouncing 

19 your name.

20 Thank you both for joining us this 

21 afternoon. So, Mrs. Metz, would you like to 

22 state your name and spell it for the court 

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1 reporter please?

2 MS. METZE: Yes. My name is Marie 

3 Robinson-Metze, M-e-t-z-e.

4 MS. BANISTER: Thank you so much. You 

5 can now proceed.

6 MS METZE: And this is a surprise, 

7 because I have a letter that I submitted to 

8 Administrator McCarthy. I was told that it was 

9 too late to speak, and I'll just read a portion 

10 of the letter. 

11 First of all, I'd like to thank Dr. 

12 Robert D. Bullard, Dean of the Barbara Jordan13 Mickey Leland School of Public Affairs at Texas 

14 Southern University in Houston, and also 

15 Commissioner Emma Darnell, District 5, Fulton 

16 County, Georgia, Board of Commissioners, for 

17 taking time with me many, many years ago, in the 

18 early '60s, to involve me with the environmental 

19 and justice issue. As some of you may know, Dr. 

20 Bullard is affectionately called the founder of 

21 environmental justice. My letter to 

22 Administrator McCarthy:

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1 I strongly support the EPA's effort to 

2 limit industrial carbon pollution from all power 

3 plants. The new proposed standard to limit 

4 greenhouses gases from existing power plants is 

5 an important step in the fight against climate 

6 change. Power plants contribute 40 percent of 

7 the carbon pollution in the United States, making 

8 them the largest contributor of carbon emissions 

9 and the chief cause of climate change. This new 

10 clean air standard will protect public health, 

11 fight climate change, and create jobs through 

12 innovation and cleaner, safer energy technology.

13 It is our moral obligation to put people 

14 before polluters, and address the primary cause 

15 of climate change by stopping the unlimited 

16 dumping of carbon pollution into our air by power 

17 plants. Reducing the amount of carbon pollution 

18 from power plants is a life-saving measure that 

19 will protect our children, our nation, and the 

20 world from the devastating effects of climate 

21 change. 

22 I stand by you in support of this 

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1 regulation and your plan to maintain an 

2 affordable, reliable energy system while cutting 

3 pollution and protecting our health and 

4 environment.

5 Thank you very much for giving me this 

6 opportunity.

7 And I have another letter that I will be 

8 sending to Administrator McCarthy. Thank you.

9 MS. BANISTER: Thank you. Yes. Could you 

10 state your name, as well as spell it for the 

11 court reporter?

12 MS. GARLAND: My name is Jenna Garland. 

13 That's spelled J-e-n-n-a G-a-r-l-a-n-d. I live 

14 here in Atlanta now but I grew up in Woodstock, 

15 Georgia, just about 30 minutes from where we sit 

16 today. I had the great pleasure of going to a 

17 wonderful school and living in a very wooded, 

18 pretty area where my sister and my friends and I 

19 spent a lot of time playing outdoors, on the 

20 playground at school, after school, when we got 

21 home, and I have a lot of very fond memories of 

22 this time, but I have some not-so-fond memories. 

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1 Those memories are from my childhood best friend, 

2 and still one of my best friends, to this day, 

3 either suffered asthma attacks when air quality 

4 was very bad on the playground, or when we ended 

5 up cooped up and weren't allowed to go outside in 

6 the summer or after school, because air quality 

7 was so poor.

8 One time, when we were playing, I took a 

9 fall and landed on one of my ribs and had the 

10 wind knocked out of me. That was the first time 

11 that had ever happened. I was very shaken by the 

12 experience, and my friend, Anna, told me that's 

13 what it feels like when you have an asthma 

14 attack. That changed my entire outlook on that, 

15 as you can probably imagine.

16 When I got older, I learned that from my 

17 entire childhood, Georgia Power was burning coal 

18 at the Jack McDonough Power Plant in nearby 

19 Marietta, less than 20 miles from where I lived 

20 and grew up. Georgia Power has since converted 

21 this plant to natural gas, so maybe not so many 

22 pollutants are coming out of the smokestacks but 

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1 pollutants are still coming out of its 

2 smokestacks.

3 I'll never forget how angry I felt when I 

4 learned that myself, my family, and my friend, 

5 Dana, had been breathing in pollution from that

6 plant for nearly 20 years. I'm very angry, on 

7 behalf of my friend, who suffered needlessly from 

8 many asthma attacks as a child, and on behalf of 

9 the other children who attended my school, who 

10 grew up breathing in the pollution from that coal 

11 plant. 

12 I'm also angry on behalf of children 

13 everywhere today, who have to breathe in 

14 pollution from smokestacks from all power plants, 

15 children who have to choose between playing 

16 outside -- something I think all of us would 

17 agree is very important children, developing 

18 healthy habits -- and risking an asthma attack or 

19 staying indoors.

20 Now, as an adult, I really enjoy spending 

21 time outdoors, whether hiking, running, going to 

22 my boot camp in the mornings. I even like to 

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1 read a book in my back yard while the cats chase. 

2 That's a very important part of my unwinding at 

3 the end of the day. Carbon pollution from power 

4 plants threatens all these activities.

5 I'd also like to take the opportunity 

6 just to correct some misinformation that I've 

7 heard today in person, as well as yesterday. I 

8 work at the Sierra Club. I am a media relations 

9 officer with the Beyond Coal campaign and I'm 

10 very lucky to work from North Carolina south to 

11 Florida, west to Oklahoma and Texas. So I work 

12 on campaigns to phase out our region's oldest and

13 dirtiest coal plants and replace them with clean 

14 energy, and I'm also working to stop coal exports 

15 out of the Gulf Coast.

16 I'd like to just point out a few things. 

17 First of all, anyone who is saying that the coal 

18 that won't be burned in the U.S. is going to be 

19 exported overseas is wrong. We've stopped three 

20 proposed coal terminals in Texas, we've slowed 

21 the development of other coal terminals on the 

22 Gulf Coast, and multiple proposed coal export 

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1 terminals in California and the Pacific Northwest 

2 have also been delayed or cancelled outright. 

3 The coal is not going to be shipped overseas.

4 Second, for anyone saying that this 

5 threatens grid reliability, that's a laughable 

6 statement. During multiple times in the past 3 

7 years, coal plants have gone down during times of 

8 extreme weather. In the record heat in Texas in 

9 August 2011, multiple coal plants that needed 

10 maintenance ended up shutting down, but it was 

11 the onshore wind farms, along the Texas Gulf 

12 Coast, south of Corpus Christi, that kept the 

13 lights and the air conditioners running during 

14 those first three days of August 2011.

15 Coal plants have also gone down in cold 

16 snaps. Coal plants have been taken offline during 

17 other types of storms, whereas wind farms have 

18 kept going. Wind farms have kept the energy 

19 flowing. So any claims of threats to grid 

20 reliability are just silly.

21 Next, air quality in the metro Atlanta 

22 region and other parts of the country is 

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1 improving, but it's still unhealthy, and in some 

2 places it's illegally unhealthy, so just because 

3 it's gotten better doesn't mean it's good enough 

4 for people breathing today.

5 Finally, here in Georgia, solar, wind, 

6 and energy efficiency have created more than 

7 10,000 jobs in the last few years. Solar 

8 contracts and wind contracts have also 

9 counteracted rate increases that Georgia Power 

10 customers, like myself, are paying for the new 

11 nuclear units at Plant Vogtle, and the rate 

12 increases that we've seen after Georgia Power 

13 decided, wrongly, poorly, to spend hundreds of 

14 millions of dollars to keep old coal plants 

15 running. Those things drive up rates, whereas 

16 the wind and solar contracts are keeping rates 

17 down.

18 So, I'll just close by saying that I 

19 applaud the U.S. Environmental Protection Agency, 

20 I applaud Administrator Gina McCarthy and 

21 President Barack Obama in taking this first 

22 critical step to curbing unchecked carbon 

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1 pollution and making sure our state and region is 

2 more resilient, more secure, and more prosperous.

3 Thank you.

4 MS. BANISTER: Thank you. Do I have any 

5 clarifying comments or questions? Thank you both 

6 for joining us this afternoon. Thank you.

7 I would now like to invite Joni Jenkins 

8 and David Muhly. Thank you both for joining us 

9 this afternoon. Ms. Jenkins, we'll start with 

10 you. If you could state your name and spell it 

11 for the court reporter, please.

12 MS. JENKINS: Thank you. Joni, J-o-n-i, 

13 Jenkins, J-e-n-k-i-n-s. Thank you for the 

14 opportunity to speak today. I represent the 

15 Kentucky House District 44 in the Kentucky 

16 General Assembly. The 44th District is south of 

17 Louisville, right on the banks of the Ohio River. 

18 It is home to hard-working, mostly blue-collar 

19 workers who strive every day to raise their 

20 children for a brighter future. The 44th 

21 District is also home to two coal-fired power 

22 plants with two coal ash landfills and coal ash 

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1 ponds. Daily, fly ash blows from the towering 

2 landfill and lands on my constituents' cars and 

3 their homes. Fly ash lands on their children's 

4 toys and swing set. Fly ash lands on their 

5 vegetable gardens -- and that's just the 

6 pollutants we can see.

7 I traveled today to represent the people 

8 of the 44th District, the moms and dads, the 

9 grandmas and grandpas, who want to see their 

10 children grow up healthy and prosperous. As a 

11 public official, I rely on having the most 

12 truthful, objective set of facts before me, as I 

13 make decisions that may affect thousands of 

14 people for thousands of years. It is a 

15 responsibility that I sought and one I do not 

16 take lightly. I believe the proposed EPA climate 

17 rules are step in the right direction, for so 

18 many reasons -- the health of our citizens, the 

19 health of our economy, and the health of our 

20 planet. 

21 Kentucky has an abysmal rate of asthma, 

22 13 percent. Asthma and allergies have triggers 

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1 in common, among them being pollen counts, which 

2 are expected to rise significantly if climate 

3 change continues unabated. We will not see 

4 positive change until we begin to limit the 

5 amount of carbon dioxide spewing forth from the 

6 coal-fired power plants. 

7 I have asthma. I know that I will always 

8 be on medication and will never be far from a 

9 rescue inhaler. My condition is manageable, but 

10 there are side effects like bone loss from the 

11 very medicines that allow me to breathe. We are 

12 sentencing too large a number of our children to 

13 this chronic disease.

14 As a state, we are attempting to prepare 

15 our young students for a new and global economy. 

16 Clean energy initiatives have proven to be 

17 economically successful in many jurisdictions 

18 throughout the world. Kentucky needs to join in 

19 this revolution. Since 1970, every dollar 

20 invested in compliance with the Clean Air Act 

21 standards have yielded $4 to $8 in economic 

22 benefits. 

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1 Between 2008 and 2009, the Louisville 

2 area was hit by hurricane-strength winds in the 

3 fall, a January ice storm that left much of 

4 Louisville and the western portion of Kentucky 

5 without power for months, and a summer flash 

6 flood caused by 6-1/2 inches of rain falling 

7 during morning rush hour, resulting in millions 

8 of dollars of damage. The climate is changing, 

9 and not just in Louisville, Kentucky.

10 The EPA is to be commended for stepping 

11 up in the absence of congressional action to 

12 address the GHG emissions from power plants. 

13 This flexible approach proposed in the rules for 

14 existing and modified electric-generating units 

15 allows states like Kentucky to improve the 

16 efficiency in how we generate and consume 

17 electricity, looking for ways on both sides of 

18 the meter to improve the quality of life of the 

19 people of the fourth poorest state in the nation.

20 We have cooked the books on energy for 

21 many years in Kentucky, and our reliance on coal22 fired power and electricity made cheap by 

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1 externalizing the pollution cost has had a real 

2 impact on the people of my district and others 

3 that host coal-fired power plants. Requiring 

4 that the full environmental and human health 

5 impact of combusting fossil fuels be accounted 

6 for is not a war on coal, but is instead a 

7 rational effort to protect human health and our 

8 children's future by stopping the use of the 

9 public's air, land, and water for industrial 

10 waste disposal.

11 As a person of faith, I would like to 

12 join my denomination, the United Church of 

13 Christ, in commending the EPA for taking a 

14 crucial step toward safeguarding human 

15 communities and the earth for generations to 

16 come.

17 Thank you.

18 MS. BANISTER: Thank you. Mr. Muhly, 

19 would you please state your name and spell it for 

20 the court reporter?

21 MS. MUHLY: My name is David Muhly, D-a22 v-i-d M-as in Mary-u-h-l-y. Good afternoon and 

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1 thanks for the opportunity to comment on the EPA 

2 Clean Power Plan. I don't have a lot of 

3 extensive technical comments or specific policy 

4 recommendations. I do know that the time to act 

5 is now and I applaud the EPA for taking the 

6 courageous position it has to give America the 

7 chance to be a leader in finally addressing the 

8 worst impacts of global climate disruption.

9 I'm a senior organizing manager for the 

10 Sierra Club, Eastern Region, and I moved to the 

11 mountains of southwest Virginia in 1973 and have 

12 been off the grid since that time. In the mid 

13 1980s, I moved our house onto photovoltaics, and 

14 the modules I purchased at that time were 

15 manufactured by Siemens here in the United 

16 States. 

17 When I made a significant expansion to 

18 that system several years ago, I purchased 

19 Evergreen modules, which were also made in the 

20 U.S. Within a year, Evergreen had closed its 

21 U.S. facilities and moved to China, and unlike 

22 when I first put those modules on my house in the 

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1 '80s, now all of the modules, virtually, that you 

2 can buy are made in China.

3 This shift is not only the result of 

4 global market forces but it's also the inevitable 

5 and unfortunate result of energy choices that 

6 we've made as a nation. Because of short-sighted 

7 energy policies and a continued subsidy of 

8 antiquated fossil fuel generation, the U.S. has 

9 lost a 40-year head start on being a significant 

10 player in the world market in renewable energy. 

11 At the same time, we have continued to impoverish 

12 our workers in communities here in the U.S. with 

13 a continuing reliance on fossil fuels, even as 

14 the Earth demonstrates its inability to continue 

15 to absorb the impacts of fossil fuel-based 

16 generation and pollution.

17 It's said that the best way to get out of 

18 a hole is to stop digging, and the EPA carbon 

19 rule, the Clean Power Plan is the first step in 

20 putting down the shovel. We can begin filling 

21 the hole by aggressively implementing and 

22 expanding the EPA's proposal in the following 

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1 ways:

2 (1) With bigger carbon reductions. We 

3 can transition from dirty to clean energy much 

4 faster than EPA predicts. We believe we should 

5 work toward a much larger emission reduction goal 

6 of 35 to 40 percent reductions below 2005 levels 

7 in 2020. This ambitious timetable will leverage 

8 American ingenuity and private enterprise while 

9 protecting public health and the environment.

10 (2) With renewables and clean energy. 

11 States should recommend replacing dirty coal 

12 generation with clean energy technology, 

13 including solar and wind, and approved energy 

14 efficiency. States can meet targets without 

15 increasing our use of dirty and dangerous energy 

16 sources like nuclear and natural gas. Trading 

17 dangerous technology or one costly fossil fuel 

18 for another is the wrong choice for our health 

19 and our energy future. The cheapest watt is the 

20 watt not used, and we, as a nation, waste 80 

21 percent of the power we consume. 

22 The Alliance to Save Energy has found 

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1 that America's households can save $1,000 each 

2 year if we double efficiency, representing $327 

3 billion in waste that we could reinvest in other 

4 areas of our lives. Starting with energy 

5 efficiency resource standards, states can begin 

6 improving the reliance and sustainability of its 

7 communities. Clean power investments will 

8 protect our families' health, lower energy bills, 

9 create new jobs that cannot be outsourced, and 

10 grow our economy.

11 (3) By empowering affected workers in 

12 communities. We must assure that affected 

13 communities are engaged throughout the process 

14 and that public resources are available to help 

15 workers and communities as they make the 

16 transition to a clean energy economy. Energy 

17 efficiency produces a host of economic benefits, 

18 including household and consumer savings, worker 

19 productivity, and more. Better building 

20 materials associated with energy efficiency 

21 generate health benefits by improving indoor air 

22 quality and creating safeguards for people who 

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1 are most susceptible to respiratory illnesses. 

2 Clean, renewable energy benefits 

3 similarly increase community savings in the long 

4 term, and they offer a tremendous opportunity to 

5 develop assets within communities that can be 

6 leveraged for more economic and social benefits. 

7 If electric utilities fulfill 20 percent of their 

8 electric sales through renewable energy by 2020, 

9 1.9 million jobs can be created across the U.S. 

10 By 2030, an estimated 20 percent of U.S. 

11 electricity will be provided by wind power. The 

12 solar power industry is projected to become a $15 

13 billion industry by 2020.

14 I've heard multiple comments over the 

15 last 2 days from apologists for the fossil fuels 

16 industry that this plan, even as drafted, is 

17 beyond the purview and out of the scope of what 

18 the agency can do under the Clean Air Act. To be 

19 sure, I am not asking the EPA to do anything it 

20 cannot, but I am certainly calling on and relying 

21 on the agency to do everything that it can. We 

22 expect, deserve, and can literally live with no 

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1 less.

2 Thank you.

3 MS. BANISTER: Thank you. 

4 MR. STENHOUSE: Yeah, I have one 

5 question. I think you mentioned an estimate of 

6 80, eight-zero, percent of electricity the U.S. 

7 generates is somehow wasted. Did I hear you 

8 correctly there? Either now or in writing, as a 

9 follow-on, if you could help clarify how that 

10 estimate is obtained, what it represents, and if 

11 it has a source, that would be helpful for us, 

12 too.

13 MR. MUHLY: Okay. I will dig up the 

14 source and get that data to you. I would suspect 

15 that it represents waste that's basically through 

16 the generation, transmission, and distribution 

17 pipeline, as well as waste at the end product, 

18 end use.

19 MR. STENHOUSE: Okay. Thank you very 

20 much.

21 MR. MUHLY: I'll get that to you.

22 MR. STENHOUSE: Thank you.

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1 MS. BANISTER: Thank you both. We 

2 appreciate you being here with us this afternoon.

3 Now I would like to invite Mark Douglas 

4 and also James McLemore to come up. Thank you 

5 both for joining us this afternoon. Mr. Douglas, 

6 if you could begin by stating your name and 

7 spelling it for the court reporter.

8 MR. DOUGLAS: Absolutely. My name is 

9 Mark Douglas, M-a-r-k D-o-u-g-l-a-s. My thanks 

10 to the panel for your time and attention. I know 

11 2 days lived 5 minutes at a time can be wearying, 

12 so I appreciate your willingness to be here.

13 I am currently a professor of Christian 

14 ethics at Columbia Theological Seminary here in 

15 Decatur, Georgia, a theological seminary 

16 associated with the Presbyterian Church USA. I 

17 hold an undergraduate degree with honors in 

18 biology from the Colorado College, two master's 

19 degrees from Princeton Seminary and a doctorate 

20 in religious ethnics from the University of 

21 Virginia. I'm also the current Chairman of the 

22 Board of Georgia Interfaith Power and Light, 

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1 which is the largest faith-based environmental 

2 group in Georgia and one of the largest in the 

3 country, and I'm here to speak in favor of the 

4 Clean Power Plan.

5 You have heard, and will continue to 

6 hear, for the next few hours, at least, a wide 

7 variety of perspectives on the plan. Most of 

8 them will focus on economic costs and benefits, 

9 on health, on jobs, on responsibilities to our 

10 children, and, at least from religious folks like 

11 me, on obligations we believe come from our 

12 Creator about caring for God's creation, by 

13 reducing greenhouse gases and airborne toxins. 

14 With many gathered here, I am convinced that the 

15 long-term benefits far outweigh any short-term 

16 costs.

17 Beyond all that, though, as an ethicist 

18 whose scholarly work focuses on just war theories 

19 and peace-making practices, I would argue that 

20 reducing greenhouse gases and mitigating the 

21 effects of climate change by promoting 

22 alternative energies will provide important 

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1 security benefits to citizens in the United 

2 States and around the world. Scientists, as well 

3 as political theorists in the emerging discipline 

4 of environmental security studies, have become 

5 increasingly aware of the consequences of climate 

6 chaos to make armed conflict more likely, to 

7 exacerbate it when it occurs, and cause more 

8 suffering for non-combatant populations during 

9 conflict.

10 We know, for instance, that the worst 5-

11 year drought in the recorded history of Syria 

12 drove young men from rural areas into the cities, 

13 there searching for work. They gathered, and 

14 facing unemployment and a government seemingly 

15 uninterested in providing for the common welfare, 

16 those rural youth helped initiate the civil war 

17 that currently engulfs that country and has led 

18 thus far to over 160,000 deaths, and is now 

19 reaching beyond the Syrian borders through the 

20 activities of the dangerous new terrorist group, 

21 ISIS.

22 Likewise, climate chaos has contributed 

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1 to recent conflicts in Somalia and the Sudan, and 

2 promises to contribute to conflicts not only in 

3 the Middle East and Northern Africa but in 

4 Central and South America, southern Africa, parts 

5 of Asia, and conceivably parts of Europe.

6 From a diplomatic perspective, we know 

7 that the United States, as the world's only 

8 indispensible nation and one of the world's 

9 greatest powers for promoting stability and 

10 welfare will be involved in addressing such 

11 potential conflicts, so it is in our best 

12 interests to reduce those forces, including 

13 climactic ones, that drive instability.

14 From a security perspective, we know that 

15 the greatest threats we currently face come not 

16 from large and established nation states but from 

17 fragile and failed states that cannot prevent 

18 terrorist organizations from operating in and 

19 launching attacks from those places. So it is in 

20 our best interest to reduce those forces, 

21 including climactic ones, that would support 

22 terrorism.

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1 From an economic perspective, we know 

2 that there are limits to the resources we can 

3 provide toward addressing such conflicts during a 

4 time when our own domestic needs are likely to be 

5 so significant, so it is in our best interest to 

6 reduce those forces, including climactic ones, 

7 that can unnecessarily drain our economy.

8 And from a humanitarian and religious 

9 perspective, we know that we are called to 

10 provide aid to those who suffer, which is part of 

11 what Jesus meant when he told us to love our 

12 neighbors. So it is in our and their best 

13 interest to be the peacemakers Jesus called 

14 blessed, and part of that peacemaking project 

15 will come through establishing better systems for 

16 energy use.

17 Thank you.

18 MS. BANISTER: Thank you. Do you have 

19 any questions. Okay. Thank you. Would please 

20 state your name and spell it for the court

21 reporter, please?

22 MR. MCLEMORE: Yes. Thank you and good 

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1 afternoon. My name is James H. McLemore. That's 

2 M-c-L-e-m-o-r-e. Thank you for this opportunity 

3 to speak to you. I'm an attorney in Montgomery, 

4 Alabama. I'm here representing the Alabama 

5 Industrial Energy Consumers, commonly known as 

6 the AIEC. I've represented them for over 20 

7 years. We oppose the proposed carbon rule.

8 AIEC is a voluntary association of 15 

9 industrial companies which are high-load 

10 customers of the Alabama Power Company. 

11 Altogether, they consume nearly 5 billion 

12 kilowatts of electricity every year from Alabama 

13 Power. It's not unusual for a company in this 

14 customer class to spend 50 to 60 percent of its 

15 operating budget on just electricity, and 

16 considering that industrial customers consume 40 

17 percent of all electricity generated by Alabama 

18 Power, you can appreciate the concern we have 

19 with this proposed rule.

20 The special sensitivity of industrial 

21 customers to changes in the regulation of 

22 electricity, and, in turn, the economic well 

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1 being of our state is obvious. For that reason, 

2 well over 30 years ago, we parked ourselves 

3 before the Alabama Public Service Commission to 

4 work with, and, at time, fight against, the 

5 attorney general for the state of Alabama, to 

6 keep electric utilities in check, while also 

7 protecting our economy and our environment.

8 That's right. You heard me right. I 

9 said and the environment. We all agree that 

10 electric regulation is not simply about price and 

11 rates. It's about balance. In the last few 

12 years, Alabama Power has asked the Alabama Public 

13 Service Commission to approve purchase power 

14 agreements for over 400 megawatts of wind 

15 generation, as well as projects for biomass 

16 projects and other renewable energy projects. 

17 All of these projects threaten to upward pressure 

18 on energy prices. Yet by working together, we, 

19 in the Alabama Power Company, found a balance 

20 which promoted clean energy, while also 

21 protecting the availability of reliable, 

22 affordable electricity and stability of prices --

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1 and that's in addition to the $3 billion that the 

2 Power Company has spent for the last 10 years to 

3 develop clean energy systems and technology, and 

4 that's a cost borne by all of us, as customers.

5 All of this is to say that working 

6 together to balance our respective and important 

7 interests is hard work, and it takes time, but it 

8 works in Alabama. The proposed carbon rule, on 

9 the other hand, throw this way out of balance. 

10 The proponents of the rule admit that the 

11 electric rates will rise significantly under this 

12 rule. "Don't worry," they say, "the economy can 

13 safely absorb this impact over time. 

14 Well, they're wrong, and here's why. 

15 Three years ago, we commissioned a study by the 

16 Center for Business and Economic Research at the 

17 University of South Alabama to measure the impact 

18 of large industry upon the economy of Alabama, 

19 and the effect of changes in electric prices. It 

20 proved what I said at the outset -- large 

21 industry is our lifeline, and it is especially 

22 sensitive to swings in electricity prices. That 

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1 study used direct impact multipliers, which were 

2 developed by the U.S. Bureau of Economic 

3 Analysis, a mode known as RIMS II. Impact 

4 multipliers for earnings and employment for 

5 manufacturing were 35 percent and 45 percent 

6 higher, respectively, than non-manufacturing 

7 industries. Manufacturing account for 85 percent 

8 of all Alabama exports.

9 From another perspective, the share of 

10 manufacturing output to total economic output in 

11 Alabama is over 16 percent. In comparison, the 

12 United States manufacturing output to total 

13 output is less than 12 percent. So manufacturing 

14 ripples through our state economy and it leads 

15 all other business sectors in relative levels of 

16 wages, share of employment, and exports. 

17 The study also showed that price 

18 elasticity for electricity is much higher for 

19 large industry than other business sectors. That 

20 means that spiking electric rates, which would 

21 result from this carbon rule, will hit Alabama 

22 hardest at its economic core -- manufacturing. 

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1 The study proves that a rise in electric rates, 

2 relative to other regions, threatens the 

3 commitment of companies that choose to locate 

4 here. That's not absorbing the impact of the 

5 carbon rule. That's throwing industry out of the 

6 state, and out of the country, industry which is 

7 the heart of our economy.

8 So I plead that you follow the model that 

9 works in Alabama. Return to the work table with 

10 utilities and industry, abandon the melodrama, 

11 seek proven, not specious, solutions that promote 

12 clean energy without crippling manufacturers and 

13 ruining the economic well being of our citizens. 

14 I know you work hard, I know you mean well. It's 

15 a complex world we live in, but I'll leave you 

16 with guidance that my dad, a long-time cotton 

17 farmer, gave me when I got into this business of 

18 practicing law. He said, "Jimmy, seek solutions. 

19 Don't make problems."

20 Thank you for the opportunity.

21 MS. BANISTER: Thank you both. Do you 

22 have any questions, follow-up?

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1 MR. STENHOUSE: I would just ask, if you 

2 weren't already planning to, including a copy of 

3 the study or some way we can find the study from 

4 the university you were referencing.

5 MR. MCLEMORE: Yeah. I'd be glad to 

6 leave a copy with you. I brought one with me and 

7 I'll send it to you with my comments, as well.

8 MR. STENHOUSE: Thank you very much.

9 MR. BANISTER: Thank you. Thank you 

10 both. I would now like to invite Ben Johnson, 

11 and I know I'm going to mispronounce this, 

12 Estefani?

13 [Inaudible comment.]

14 MS. BANISTER: Oh, okay. Great. 

15 MR. JOHNSON: Do you care which chair I 

16 sit in?

17 MS. BANISTER: It doesn't matter. This 

18 left one is fine. Thank you both for joining us 

19 this afternoon and submitting your comments. We 

20 truly appreciate it.

21 Mr. Johnson, would you like to start, and 

22 if you could say your name and spell it for the 

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1 court reporter.

2 MR. JOHNSON: Okay. My name is Ben 

3 Johnson. First name Ben, B-e-n, last name J-o-h4 n-s-o-n. That's an easy one. And first I want 

5 to thank you for taking the time to listen to my 

6 comments and take them to heart as you try to 

7 formulate rules for us to have a cleaner planet,

8 better environment for all of us to live in, for 

9 the long term.

10 I want to start with a personal story, my 

11 personal witness to climate change in Georgia. 

12 One of my passions is working out in my yard. I 

13 live in Smyrna, Georgia, which is a suburb of 

14 Atlanta. It's just outside of the perimeter loop 

15 that goes around the city. And my wife and I 

16 love to work in our yard. We are amazed by the 

17 wonder of everything that's naturally growing 

18 there, and by the things that we have planted 

19 there.

20 Over the last several years it has become 

21 harder and harder for her, in particular, to be 

22 able to be outside for any period of time. 

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1 Working for about an hour is the limit before she 

2 is in respiratory distress, due to the existing 

3 state of the air in metro Atlanta, and throughout 

4 the country.

5 We also love to go to many outdoor 

6 places. Smokey Mountain National Park is one of 

7 our favorites, and the trees there, in addition 

8 to the insect damage, are being killed, in large 

9 scale, by the pollution, the acid rain that is 

10 falling.

11 Our love of the outdoors and nature and 

12 outside activities -- swimming, hiking, boating -

13 - leads me to come here today and say we want the 

14 strongest possible safeguards that we can have. 

15 Your hearing is only about the power plants, but 

16 the power plants are responsible for over 30 

17 percent of the carbon-based emissions in this 

18 country right now, so I applaud you for the rules 

19 that you have set forth, and feel that those 

20 rules should be enacted as they are currently 

21 written, or should be strengthened. We're 

22 talking about 30 percent reduction by 2030. That 

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1 is a long time frame, and I recognize that this 

2 is a problem that took hundreds of years to grow, 

3 and it can't be turned around overnight. 

4 We don't expect industry or the power 

5 companies to immediately dismantle all of their 

6 dirty power plants, which Georgia has two of the 

7 top ten dirtiest plants in the country. But we 

8 can clean up the atmosphere and improve the 

9 quality of life for all Georgians, so that we 

10 could be leading with pride in this state and not 

11 being chained by old technology and old industry.

12 Cleaner environment leads to a healthier 

13 population. You have a stronger, healthier work 

14 force, less sick time, and unproductive or less 

15 productive time by the people of the state that 

16 are living and working here. It should be more 

17 attractive to business, a place where businesses 

18 want to expand and want to relocate and want to 

19 grow. 

20 I know I've spoken with people on planes, 

21 as we flew into Atlanta, and they say, "Where is 

22 the city? All I see is trees." We have a great 

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1 natural infrastructure here but we need to 

2 improve it. We should be leading and not 

3 allowing people who are driven solely by a profit 

4 motive to dictate what happens with our 

5 environment.

6 It's about the quality of life for all 

7 Georgians, and so that we can make the motto that 

8 Georgia has used from tourism and some other 

9 sites, that says, "Welcome to Georgia, a great 

10 place to live, work, and play." I wish I could, 

11 with my whole heart, say that I firmly believe 

12 that is true. If you enact these rules, we 

13 should be able to meet them with prudent business 

14 practices by embracing clean technology, which 

15 will not raise the rate of power but reduce the 

16 cost to consumers, to business, and to everyone, 

17 while, at the same time, increasing the quality 

18 of our air and the quality of our life.

19 And my catchphrase for today is, "If 

20 power plants breathe cleaner, we all breathe 

21 easier."

22 I want to thank you for your time today, 

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1 and I hope you'll take my comments to heart.

2 MS. BANISTER: Thank you so much. Any 

3 clarifying comments or questions? Okay. If you 

4 would state and spell your name for the court 

5 reporter.

6 MS. IGNACIO: My name is Estefani 

7 Ignacio, E-s-t-e-f-a-n-i, Ignacio, I-g-n-a-c-i-o, 

8 and I'm an intern at Environment Georgia. I am a 

9 rising junior at Connecticut College, where I 

10 major in public health with a focus in 

11 environmental science, and I would first like to 

12 thank you for the opportunity to testify about 

13 the EPA's proposed rule to limit carbon 

14 pollution.

15 Global warming is a current issue that we 

16 are all facing. Whether I am in Acapulco, 

17 Mexico, where I was born, or here in Atlanta, 

18 Georgia, where I was raised, this issue crosses 

19 borders affecting millions of individuals. Global 

20 warming has especially affected my family, where 

21 my nephew, Joshua, who is only 8 years old, 

22 suffers from severe asthma, which only continues 

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1 to worsen as time goes on. I have watched him 

2 take his medication and can only imagine how hard 

3 this experience must be for him. I reassure him 

4 every day that things will be better, because we 

5 have millions of individuals that are working 

6 hard to make a safer and cleaner environment for 

7 our children.

8 More than 3.6 million Latinos have 

9 developed asthma in the U.S., with 1 in 10 being 

10 a Latino child. Our children are the most 

11 vulnerable to the effects of global warning. 

12 With power plants producing 40 percent of carbon 

13 emission and no limit on the amount of carbon 

14 that they dump into the air, it is no surprise 

15 that these numbers are so high.

16 I am here today to state that the Latino 

17 community in the U.S. recognizes the threat that 

18 climate change poses on the health of our 

19 families and the future of our community in this 

20 country. In the end, global warming affects 

21 everyone, whether you're rich, poor, African 

22 American, Caucasian, or Hispanic. It is an issue 

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1 that brings us all together to save the 

2 environment that we all share. 

3 For this reason, I support the Clean 

4 Power Plan in hopes that one day we will have 

5 cleaner air and environment. I commend the EPA 

6 for responding to the urgent need to protect 

7 public health and not only our future but our 

8 children's future. [Speaks Spanish.] We must 

9 make a change today. 

10 Thank you.

11 MS. BANISTER: Thank you. Any questions, 

12 clarifying comments? Thank you both. We 

13 appreciate your comments today. Thank you so 

14 much.

15 I would now like to invite Amber Keller -

16 - what is that, Kellner? -- Keller, and Djuan 

17 Coleon, C-o-l-e-o-n, great, to come up to the 

18 front. Hello. Thank you both for joining us 

19 today. We will start with Amber. Please say 

20 your name and spell it.

21 MS. KELLER: My name is Amber Keller and 

22 I'm just representing myself as a citizen and 

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1 everything. So, I think the, overall, the Clean 

2 Energy Plan is really, is a really good idea and 

3 it's a really, it's just some really strong 

4 legislation coming from the EPA. I think that, 

5 you know, it's really necessary at this time and 

6 there's been a lot of, plenty of studies that 

7 have come out to prove the effects of emitting 

8 large amounts of carbon dioxide into the 

9 atmosphere, as well as other greenhouses gases, 

10 and its effect on climate change. 

11 So I think this is just -- the EPA to 

12 continue to stay strong on this plan, and 

13 continue to move forward with it, I guess with 

14 just one maybe slight modification that, of just 

15 calling carbon dioxide pollution, I guess, just 

16 because of the fact that it's a greenhouse gas, 

17 not necessarily a pollution, because carbon 

18 dioxide is naturally just emitted in cycle 

19 through the environment. 

20 So, I don't know, just to say, just to be 

21 clear on the messaging about greenhouse -- you 

22 know, carbon dioxide emissions, not necessarily 

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1 like carbon pollution. That would be the only 

2 thing. That's it.

3 MS. BANISTER: Great. Thank you. Thank 

4 you for your comments. I appreciate that. Mr. 

5 Coleon -- how do you pronounce your name?

6 MR. COLEON: Coleon.

7 MS. BANISTER: Coleon. Would you state 

8 your name and spell it for the court reporter, 

9 please?

10 MR. COLEON: It's Djuan Coleon, D as in 

11 David-j-u-a-n, C as in Charlie-o-l-e as in 

12 Edward-o-n, but the D is silent. That's what they 

13 say. I want to thank you all this afternoon for 

14 having this forum, for us to be able to voice our 

15 thoughts on President Obama's Clean Energy Plan. 

16 I'm the Executive Director of PURE, which is 

17 Project Urban Renewable Energy, and we're focused 

18 on environmental justice. 

19 And I want to start out the context of my 

20 conversation from my thoughts from Genesis 2:15, 

21 where it says "The Lord placed the man in the 

22 Garden of Eden to tend and watch over it." So, 

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1 with that context, I think it's all of our duty 

2 to steward the Earth. That's what we were put 

3 here for. The Earth is just not going to take 

4 care of itself. There is some responsibility for 

5 man and society to do the best it can to allow it 

6 to reach its full potential.

7 So I applaud and support the President 

8 for making the step to implement the plan for 

9 American to improve our stewardship of the Earth 

10 by putting these guidelines in place, to reduce 

11 carbon emissions by 30 percent by 2030. But we 

12 have to look at the issues that we're facing with 

13 as broad a lens as possible, because it's not 

14 just our environment that we have to consider, 

15 but we have to see that what we decide today will 

16 affect jobs, school funding, health care, pension 

17 plans, community volatility. All of these are at 

18 stake, and we have to look at a holistic 

19 approach. 

20 We just came off of a 50-year celebration 

21 of the 1964 Civil Rights Act, where Dr. King was 

22 leading that charge, and we can still hear that 

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1 clarion call today in the form of environmental 

2 justice. He said, in his book, "Where Do We Go 

3 From Here: Community Or Chaos?" that "We must 

4 work passionately and indefatigably to bridge the 

5 gulf between our scientific progress and our 

6 moral progress. One of the great problems of 

7 mankind is that we suffer from a poverty of 

8 spirit which stands in glaring contrast to our 

9 scientific and technological abundance. The 

10 richer we have become, materially, the poorer we 

11 have become, morally and spiritually. 

12 "So much of modern life can be summarized 

13 in the suggested phrase of Thoreau, 'Improve 

14 means to an unimproved end.' This is the series 

15 predicament, the deep and haunting problem 

16 confronting modern man and large material power 

17 spell and large peril if there is not 

18 proportionate growth of the soul."

19 So what Dr. King prophetically analyzed 

20 in his book, "Where Do We Go From Here: Community 

21 Or Chaos?" is apropos for today. As we rush to 

22 improve the environment, we must consider all the 

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1 people who are living in the environment, from 

2 both ends of the economic spectrum, both rich and 

3 poor. As we tout new, green jobs that could be 

4 created by the Clean Power Plan, we have to 

5 consider what are we going to do about the jobs 

6 that are being lost due to the plan. Those jobs 

7 represent people and families. 

8 What incentives will be given to the 

9 fossil fuel industry as they continue to make 

10 progress in reducing CO2 emissions? As we tout 

11 renewable energy as the elixir, how will we deal 

12 with the melees that those who are 

13 disproportionately dealing with the toxic and 

14 hazardous waste in all forms, from petrochemicals 

15 to landfills? We have to address those 

16 pollutants as well. And how will income17 challenged communities afford the new 

18 technologies? 

19 The poorest urban communities usually 

20 cannot get adequate response to natural disaster, 

21 as we saw with Hurricane Katrina. They can't 

22 even get potholes fixed in their community, so 

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1 how will they be integrated into the new smart 

2 cities and smart energy grids that are coming? 

3 How will we ensure that technological innovation 

4 will not price them out?

5 This is the moral and spiritual 

6 implications we must consider, as Dr. King stated 

7 in that quote from "Where Do We Go From Here." I 

8 believe we have to build collaborative, 

9 sustainable communities one block at a time, by 

10 working with all stakeholders, from the fossil 

11 fuel industry to state and local governments, 

12 federal agencies, faith-based organizations, and 

13 people in the community, to find ways to improve 

14 the ecological condition of each community 

15 environment, to create sustainable and resilient 

16 communities.

17 MS. BANISTER: Any questions, clarifying? 

18 Okay. Thank you both. We appreciate your 

19 comments, and thank you for joining us this 

20 afternoon.

21 I would like to now invite Elizabeth 

22 Marks -- is she here? -- and also Thomas -- is it 

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1 Brisse? 

2 [Inaudible response.]

3 MS. BANISTER: Oh, okay. Great. I'm not 

4 quite sure if that was a U or an N. Thank you 

5 both for joining us this afternoon. We 

6 appreciate you being here, and we will start with 

7 Ms. Marks. If you will state your name and spell 

8 it for the court reporter, please.

9 MS. MARKS: Good afternoon. My name is 

10 Liza, well, Elizabeth or Liza, Elizabeth, E-l-i11 z-a-b-e-t-h, Marks, M-a-r-k-s. I really 

12 appreciate the opportunity to come and speak with 

13 you this afternoon.

14 I support the proposed standards for 

15 carbon pollution from the coal-fired power 

16 plants, and I also believe we could do much more. 

17 It's long past time for this country, which 

18 should be leading the world in addressing the 

19 challenges of climate change and sustainable 

20 growth, to take such action.

21 Since I was a little girl, playing in a 

22 creek behind my house -- I grew up in western 

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1 Massachusetts -- I have known that caring for the 

2 Earth was important to me. My parents taught me 

3 that it wasn't just a choice but a responsibility 

4 to be thoughtful and compassionate in my 

5 interactions with people, animals, and the 

6 natural environment. 

7 Now, as an adult, I can appreciate the 

8 difficulty of striking a balance between caring 

9 for the health of our Earth and the creatures 

10 living on it, and also managing a healthy economy 

11 that meets the needs of all our citizens, but I 

12 believe that both are important and we should be 

13 facing that difficulty honestly.

14 I also come to this issue from the 

15 perspective of a social worker. I have a 

16 professional, ethical responsibility to take 

17 action to address social problems and promote 

18 social justice and human well-being, so when I 

19 read on the American Lung Association's website 

20 that more than 35.6 million children live in 

21 counties that received an F grade for at least 

22 one form of air pollution and that low-income 

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1 people are likely to suffer disproportionately 

2 from the effects of air pollution, that suggests 

3 to me that I have not just a personal but also a 

4 professional interest in this issue.

5 As you know from other testimonies, 

6 polluted air can cause and exacerbate a litany of 

7 health problems, especially for children, the 

8 elderly, and people who are already sick. I've 

9 seen asthma, I've seen emphysema, I've seen lung 

10 cancer, and these are not minor inconveniences 

11 for the families that suffer with them.

12 Becoming a mother has added another 

13 dimension to my feelings about our 

14 responsibilities as a people. I'm raising a 1-

15 year-old in Atlanta, which the ALA, the American 

16 Lung Association, ranks 18th worst among U.S. 

17 cities for annual particulate pollution. I'm 

18 frightened of the condition that the Earth and 

19 the climate might be in when my son is grown up, 

20 but I'm also hopeful that I and the other people 

21 who are adults now can make better decisions than 

22 we've made in the past. I desperate want my son, 

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1 Elijah, to grow up healthy in a healthy world, 

2 and I want him to meet lots of friends who are 

3 healthy and happy, and be able to build 

4 communities with them. I want his generation to 

5 grow up knowing that their parents and other 

6 grownups worked hard to address the problems that 

7 would impact them, even when that demanded 

8 sacrifices of us.

9 Someday everyone in this room will be 

10 gone. The people who are babies now will be 

11 grown up with their own families, facing their 

12 society's challenges on their own. I don't want 

13 them to be angry or to feel that we did an 

14 inadequate job addressing the problems that 

15 affect them, and that would affect their lives 

16 and their families, because the work was too hard 

17 for us. I want his generation to know we love 

18 them and we didn't leave them in the lurch.

19 Thank you again for your time and for 

20 your work on this very important issue.

21 MS. BANISTER: Thank you. Any clarifying 

22 comments or questions? Okay. Great. Yes. If 

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1 you would state your name and spell it for the 

2 court reporter, please.

3 MR. BEUSSE: Yes. Thomas Beusse, and 

4 that's spelled B-e-u-s-s-e. I'm here this 

5 afternoon to speak on behalf of the Georgia 

6 Chemistry Council. The Georgia Chemistry 

7 Council, or GCC, is an industry trade association 

8 for the chemistry and plastics industries, and we 

9 currently represent over 25 companies with over 

10 35 major facilities throughout the state of 

11 Georgia. 

12 GCC was founded in 2003, and our goal is 

13 to work with companies interested in chemical, 

14 environmental, and energy policies in the state 

15 of Georgia. Georgia Chemistry is essential to 

16 the state's economy, producing over $15 billion 

17 in product value and providing about 20,000 

18 direct jobs. GCC members include Georgia-based 

19 companies like Kemira and Axiall, as well as 

20 international companies such as BASF, Chevron, 

21 DuPont, Olin, and Dow. 

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1 largest industrial sector in the state of 

2 Georgia. Our industry is energy-intensive. We 

3 use both natural gas and electricity as the feed 

4 stock for our products. We crack the natural gas 

5 molecule to make a wide variety of products that 

6 we all use every day, and we use electricity to 

7 provide fuel for our electrolysis processes. 

8 Any action that will put market pressure 

9 on the availability and/or price of natural gas, 

10 or that will result in an increase to the cost of 

11 electricity could seriously impact our industry 

12 in an negative matter. The proposed 

13 Environmental Protection Agency's regulation of 

14 greenhouse gases in Section 111(d) could produce 

15 that harmful result.

16 Since many chemistry processes require 

17 large amounts of electricity and natural gas, 

18 both as a raw material and as an energy source, 

19 the U.S. chemical industry is highly attuned to 

20 how EPA's regulation for the electricity sector 

21 could affect energy markets. Changes in the cost 

22 and availability of energy are critically 

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1 important to our facilities, and we are concerned 

2 that the proposed Section 111(d) changes could 

3 lead to higher energy prices in certain parts of 

4 the country, a scenario that would make it more 

5 difficult for manufacturers in those states to 

6 compete abroad and grow and hire here in the U.S.

7 The proposal, by EPA estimates, will 

8 decrease coal's role in power generation from 

9 about 40 percent to 31 percent. How will this 

10 reduction in coal use effect competitiveness in 

11 energy-intensive industries located in coal12 intensive states like Georgia? Simply put, the 

13 proposal will increase the use of natural gas in 

14 the power generation sector. Natural gas 

15 production is increasing overall, but will the 

16 increased production be enough to offset the huge 

17 increase that will be required for power 

18 generation by switching to natural gas?

19 For example, during February of 2014, we 

20 experienced a weather phenomenon here called the 

21 Arctic vortex. This unusually cold weather 

22 caused a huge increase in demand for electricity. 

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1 The peaking demand is primarily generated by 

2 natural production. This spike in electricity 

3 demand also caused natural gas prices to spike. 

4 If we are not now prepared to weather a brief 

5 spike in demand, like the one created by the 

6 Arctic vortex, how can we possibly be prepared 

7 for a major shift from coal generation to gas 

8 generation? 

9 This new demand on our domestic supplies 

10 of natural gas is likely to cause natural gas 

11 prices to increase. Presently, chemical 

12 manufacturing is experiencing a renaissance in 

13 the United States due to the new discoveries of 

14 natural gas. We have gone from one of the 

15 highest cost-producing countries to, arguably, 

16 one of the least cost-producing countries.

17 We are pleased to see that EPA's proposal 

18 has a role for energy efficiency, which is one of 

19 the most cost-effective ways to achieve emissions 

20 reductions. Model energy building codes and 

21 combined heat and power systems are two key 

22 options that states should adopt. Building codes 

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1 and standards can play an important role in 

2 achieving the in-use energy efficiency targets 

3 outlined in EPA's plan. 

4 The business of chemistry in the U.S. is 

5 undergoing a historic expansion, due to our 

6 decisive competitive advantage in the cost and 

7 availability of our energy and feed stock. As of 

8 this month, chemical manufacturers have plans for 

9 more than $113 billion in new investment over the 

10 coming decade. A comprehensive energy policy and 

11 smart regulations will be vital to our continued 

12 expansion in the United States.

13 Thank you for the opportunity to comment 

14 today.

15 MS. BANISTER: Great. Any questions? 

16 Thank you both for your comments. We appreciate 

17 you all being here today. Thank you.

18 I'd like to invite up Mark Gaddy and 

19 Eddie Plowden. Thank you both for joining us 

20 this afternoon. Mr. Gaddy, if you would state 

21 your name as well as spell it for the court 

22 reporter please.

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1 MR. GADDY: Okay. My name is Mark Gaddy. 

2 Last name is G-a-d-d-y. Again, my position, I 

3 work for Berkeley Electric Cooperative in South 

4 Carolina. We are in the South Carolina low 

5 country around Charleston, and as I get started, 

6 I'd just like to make a comment that as far as --

7 I don't think there's an area in the country that 

8 takes more pride in the environment than the 

9 coastal Carolinas, with our lakes and ocean, 

10 estuaries, all the creeks and so forth. 

11 Charleston is very environmentally conscious, and 

12 I'd just like to say, on behalf of Berkeley 

13 Electric, that I think that we are environmental

14 stewards. Our new CEO takes great pride. He's a 

15 rancher from Missouri. 

16 But we would just like to see any action 

17 take place in a slow, methodical way, that not 

18 only protects the environment but, at the same 

19 time, protects the pocketbooks of our members. 

20 Our transmission cooperative, Central Electric 

21 Power Cooperative, has stated that they are 

22 concerned that these changes could increase the 

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1 cost of electricity to our members by around 50 

2 percent, which would be approximately $79 per 

3 month on the average electricity bill, and being 

4 that we serve a very rural population, on the 

5 outskirts of Charleston, portions of which are 

6 very rural, and we have daily contact with those 

7 folks, we know that they absolutely cannot afford 

8 this. So we just would plead with you to please 

9 help us on that front.

10 And then I would get into my comments, if 

11 you don't mind. EPA's ruling will change the 

12 power supply infrastructure that our members' 

13 money has built and paid for over the last 

14 several decades. Despite its negative economic 

15 impact, the proposed rule will have little impact 

16 on the environment. However, it will have a 

17 major impact on the pocketbook of South 

18 Carolinians. 

19 EPA's new standards will reduce our 

20 future fuel diversity. One reason I think EPA 

21 proposed these standards is that it assumes 

22 natural gas is readily available and affordable 

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1 all over the country, and, in fact, natural gas 

2 is not available in certain areas. In the lower 

3 half of South Carolina, we do not have a major 

4 gas pipeline, which puts us at a very high 

5 disadvantage, I would say, there.

6 In the newest proposed rule, the EPA has 

7 chosen to set independent carbon dioxide 

8 emissions standards for each state. Based on 

9 their estimate of that state's ability to comply, 

10 this has resulted in South Carolina having to 

11 possibly reduce carbon dioxide emissions by 51 

12 percent, which is the third-highest percentage in 

13 the country. The current proposal does not allow 

14 us to consider the new V.C. Summer nuclear units 

15 coming online in 2018 and 2019 as part of our 

16 efforts to reduce our carbon emissions, and that 

17 plan is being built by South Carolina Electric 

18 and Gas -- SCANA is the parent company -- and by 

19 Santee Cooper, who is our power supplier.

20 As we are forced to move away from coal 

21 for power generation, this energy will need to be 

22 replaced. Reduced energy competition, combined 

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1 with increased energy demand and costly energy 

2 options, will inevitably increase electricity 

3 bills. Exactly how much it will increase will 

4 depend on which EPA-approved method the South 

5 Carolina Department of Health and Environmental 

6 Control, would choose to restrict the use of coal 

7 in South Carolina.

8 Whatever your view may be on the science 

9 of climate change, the proposed regulations would 

10 do little to affect the planet. When fully 

11 implemented, the regulations will reduce global 

12 emissions of carbon dioxide by less than 1 

13 percent. This is hardly noticeable on a 

14 planetary basis, but it will definitely be 

15 noticed by South Carolina communities who would 

16 deal with increased electricity bills.

17 And in closing, I would just like to 

18 encourage EPA to please reconsider this ruling, 

19 and, at the very least, if you would please 

20 consider inclusion of that plant, the V.C. Summer 

21 Plant in the Columbia area as part of our goal 

22 for South Carolina.

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1 MS. BANISTER: Would you say the name of 

2 that plant again?

3 MR. GADDY: Yes. The V.C. Summer nuclear 

4 units.

5 MS. BANISTER: Okay.

6 MR. STENHOUSE: I have a related question 

7 to that. Perhaps I'm not understanding the name, 

8 but are you talking about generators that are 

9 nuclear powered?

10 MR. GADDY: Exactly.

11 MR. STENHOUSE: And so the word "solar," 

12 I think, is throwing me off.

13 MR. GADDY: Oh, did I say solar? I'm 

14 sorry. V.C. Summer.

15 MR. STENHOUSE: Okay. Thank you very 

16 much.

17 MR. GADDY: That's the name of the 

18 facility. That plant is under construction, 

19 presently, but it's not come online.

20 MR. STENHOUSE: Thank you.

21 MR. GADDY: Thank you.

22 MS. BANISTER: And just a clarification 

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1 before we move on. The 50 percent increase -- I 

2 think you said 50 percent increase?

3 MR. GADDY: Yes, ma'am.

4 MS. BANISTER: So those are caused, that 

5 you guys have went back and formulated and came 

6 up with specifically?

7 MR. GADDY: Our transmission cooperative, 

8 which is Central Electric Power Cooperative in 

9 Columbia, South Carolina, their CEO gave us those 

10 figures.

11 MS. BANISTER: Okay. Thank you so much.

12 MR. GADDY: Thank you very much.

13 MS. BANISTER: Is it Ploden?

14 MR. PLOWDEN: Plowden.

15 MS. BANISTER: Plowden. Would you state 

16 your name and also spell it for the court 

17 reporter? Thank you.

18 MR. PLOWDEN: Okay. Eddie Plowden. E-d19 d-i-e P-l-o-w-d-e-n.

20 MS. BANISTER: Okay.

21 MR. PLOWDEN: And I'm also from Berkeley 

22 Electric Cooperative. Mark and I work together. 

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1 We're a member-owned electric cooperative, and my 

2 job at the cooperative, every day, is helping our 

3 members wisely use energy. I manage the energy 

4 efficiency programs, putting in new technology to 

5 all members, to try to lower energy usage. So 

6 every day it's about helping our members that are 

7 calling in for high bills, folks that are on the 

8 edge of not being able to pay bills, helping them 

9 reduce their energy efficiency. So we are all 

10 about trying to help our members on the usage 

11 side.

12 We feel like this ruling is a little too 

13 aggressive and that it's going to drive up costs 

14 in South Carolina disproportionately for our 

15 members. By restricting the use of coal, this 

16 rule will change the power supply infrastructure 

17 that our members have already paid for, for the 

18 coal plants that are there for the past decades. 

19 Despite its tremendous negative economic impact, 

20 the proposed rule will have little or no impact 

21 on the environment. However, it will have a 

22 major impact on the pocketbooks of South Carolina 

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1 and our rate payers. 

2 The electric cooperatives of South 

3 Carolina are responsible for providing reliable, 

4 affordable electric power for 1-1/2 million South 

5 Carolinians, representing 700,000 homes, farms, 

6 businesses, and communities, covering almost two7 thirds of the state. We are a nonprofit business 

8 owned by our members we serve. Since we aren't in 

9 the business of making a profit, we have no 

10 financial interest in any one power supply option 

11 over another. We don't prefer coal-based energy 

12 because it helps us make money. We prefer a 

13 coal-based because we have existing plants 

14 already in place that are paid for, and because 

15 it provides reliability for our members and keeps 

16 the price of power affordable.

17 Coal not only helps to keep the power 

18 affordable, it also helps keep it reliable. This 

19 past winter is an example, out in the eastern and 

20 midwestern areas of the country, which faced a 

21 tremendous pressure and supply of energy. They 

22 faced restrictions in delivery of natural gas to 

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1 the power plants, to many areas. On the coldest 

2 days, the increase in price was over 1,000 times 

3 what it normally should be. 

4 Additionally, in South Carolina, during 

5 the Valentine's Day area, during the time we had 

6 the coldest time, we actually faced power outages 

7 in South Carolina because of the cold weather, 

8 which actually shut down plants and we were on 

9 the verge of supply problems in South Carolina.

10 So with the coal-fired plants, during 

11 these extreme times, and having a coal plant with 

12 a 45-day supply of resources onsite, it gives 

13 great peace of mind and protection for our 

14 members to have reliable power and also reliable 

15 price volatility. It cuts down on price 

16 volatility for our members. With the loss of 

17 already-scheduled 2014 shutdowns of some power 

18 plants, will we have enough capacity in the 

19 future to take care of needs, especially during 

20 the extreme times?

21 To meet the nationwide 30 percent 

22 targeted goal, South Carolina will actually be 

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1 required to reduce carbon dioxide emissions from 

2 1,587 pounds of CO2 per megawatt-hour to 772, CO2 

3 per megawatt-hour. When we compare the total 

4 reduction of pounds, 815, our burden is more than 

5 any other state in the union. Our early action 

6 to build the V.C. Summer nuclear plants, and 

7 actually displace or eliminate some of the 

8 capacity with the nuclear stations, is not being 

9 included in these numbers at all, and it places a 

10 big burden on South Carolina, as far as money and 

11 reaching the target reductions is concerned.

12 The EPA, in establishing these rules, 

13 we've eliminated two of the blocks already, on 

14 plant efficiency and on natural gas utilization. 

15 The only two remaining to meet the goals would be 

16 energy efficiency and also renewable power, and 

17 we don't feel that they're attainable in South 

18 Carolina with the level of goals that's been 

19 established for the state.

20 That given, with there being not a 

21 tremendous reduction as far as affecting the 

22 environment, as far as we're concerned, this will 

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1 have a tremendous increase in the bills for our 

2 members, and we feel that this action will 

3 actually reduce our reliability of power, reduce 

4 our diversity of power sources for our members, 

5 and increase prices, and, of course, an increased 

6 price in power increases goods and services in 

7 the community and also can drive away job growth 

8 in our area. 

9 We just ask that the nuclear stations 

10 that are actually being built in South Carolina 

11 be considered in the goals for the state. We 

12 were actually proactive in building these before 

13 the goals were established. If we would've done 

14 this after the goals were set up today, then they 

15 would be included in it, and we would've had that 

16 included. So we feel that that should be 

17 included. And this is the same appeal that 

18 Georgia had, from earlier today, and I appreciate 

19 your time and consideration of our thoughts.

20 MS. BANISTER: Thank you. Do you have 

21 questions?

22 MR. STENHOUSE: I have a question. You 

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1 mentioned a Valentine's Day period this year, 

2 during which it sounds like supply became a 

3 considerable challenge. Do you know or could you 

4 supply to us later the particular facilities that 

5 were not able to operate at that time, that 

6 caused some of the crunch?

7 MR. PLOWDEN: I'm sure we could.

8 MR. GADDY: It was old SCANA system. 

9 They had rolling brownouts.

10 MR. STENHOUSE: What type --

11 MR. GADDY: Cold weather affected the 

12 stations themselves and they actually lost a 

13 number of stations during that time period, and 

14 because of that, they had to do rolling 

15 brownouts. We just didn't have capacity.

16 MR. STENHOUSE: Do you know what type of 

17 generators they were?

18 MR. PLOWDEN: Natural gas.

19 MR. STENHOUSE: They were largely natural 

20 gas? Okay. Thank you.

21 MS. BANISTER: Okay. Do you have any 

22 questions?

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1 MS. GETTLE: No.

2 MS. BANISTER: Okay. We thank you both 

3 for coming this afternoon and thank you for your 

4 comments.

5 Evan -- is it Swaak? Evan Swaak, and 

6 also Rudi Navarra. Thank you both for coming 

7 this afternoon. Mr. Swaak, we will start with 

8 you. If you would just pronounce your name and 

9 spell it for the court reporter please.

10 MR. SWAAK: Sure. My name is Evan Swaak, 

11 E-v-a-n, Swaak, S-w-a-a-k.

12 MS. BANISTER: Okay.

13 MR. SWAAK: And I'm currently a student 

14 at the University of Denver, but I was actually 

15 born in the Netherlands and have a dual American 

16 and Dutch citizenship, which means that I have 

17 two countries to worry about, two countries that 

18 I love equally and that are both heavily 

19 threatened by climate change.

20 For those of you who are unaware, the 

21 Netherlands is one of the lowest-lying countries 

22 in the world. With only 50 percent of the 

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1 country exceeding 1 meter above sea level, the 

2 threat of sea level rise is incredibly daunting. 

3 With the recent collapse of the West Antarctic 

4 Ice Sheet, the sea is guaranteed, absolutely 

5 guaranteed, to rise by a minimum of 13 feet, 

6 which means that within a couple hundred years, 

7 60 percent of my country of origin will be 

8 underwater.

9 Here in the States, rising sea levels 

10 paint a similar picture. Louisiana, New York, 

11 California, and any other coastal state here in 

12 the States will share a similar future, albeit 

13 not so dramatic, and while the Netherlands and 

14 the United States have separate governments with 

15 separate laws and separate regulations, polluting 

16 the atmosphere with carbon dioxide affects us 

17 all.

18 Putting carbon dioxide into the 

19 atmosphere is the biggest example we have of the 

20 tragedy of the commons, a theory that states that 

21 a group's self-interests eventually depletes an 

22 entire resource. In this case, we're 

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1 individually polluting the atmosphere with carbon 

2 dioxide, assuming that there will be no future 

3 consequences for us all, when, in reality, there 

4 will be heavy consequences for the entire world. 

5 We're ignoring the negative externalities that 

6 are soon to come.

7 Rather than unfairly leaving the problem 

8 to future generations, it is time for us to solve 

9 them now. It is time for the United States to 

10 become a leader, rather than a follower, when it 

11 comes to environmental affairs. When it comes to 

12 climate change, it's important to realize that 

13 this is the biggest problem our species has ever 

14 faced. It is time to think as a whole rather 

15 than as an individual, and it's time to face the 

16 fact that our current progress is creating a 

17 planet that is inhospitable.

18 We are creating a planet where our 

19 countries are flooding, our children are choking 

20 on deadly air, our fisheries are dying, our 

21 cultures are disappearing, our food is growing 

22 scarcer, our temperatures are rising, our ice is 

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1 melting, our oceans are acidifying, our forests 

2 are burning, our water is disappearing, our air 

3 is changing, our animals are growing extinct, our 

4 storms are intensifying, our droughts are growing 

5 longer, and our conflicts are intensified. Our 

6 environment is trying to tell us something, and I 

7 only hope we have the courage to listen.

8 Thank you.

9 MS. BANISTER: Thank you. Mr. Navarra, 

10 would you state your name and spell it for the 

11 court reporter?

12 MR. NAVARRA: Hi. My name is Rudi 

13 Navarra. That is R-u-d-i N-a-v-a-r-r-a. I think 

14 it's absolutely cold in here, by the way. 

15 I'm coming to speak to you as a Hispanic 

16 American. I live in the Miami-Fort Lauderdale 

17 metro area, and I didn't really actually plan to 

18 speak, so this is off the cuff here. I support 

19 the Clean Power Plan, and I come as a repairer, 

20 as a homeowners, and as somebody in South Florida 

21 that is assuming the other negative externalities 

22 that are not being factored into this, that are 

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1 affecting now South Florida. 

2 So, as a homeowner, the insurance rates 

3 that are we are paying down there as a result of 

4 the carbon that has been emitted now for over 

5 100-plus years is, actually, very high and will 

6 continue to be very high. Were it not for the 

7 Florida Legislature and their hand in citizens' 

8 insurance, folks would not have a way to insure 

9 their home.

10 So when I hear the co-ops and the 

11 utilities actually come up here and say that this 

12 is going to be too expensive, or that they're 

13 concerned about the rate payers and the costs 

14 that they will be passing on, it's something I 

15 share as well, but, at the same time, they have 

16 actually been given a free pass for 100-plus 

17 years of having no regulation on carbon, and also 

18 on a whole bunch of other issues before the Clean 

19 Air Act and before the Clean Water Act. That's 

20 quite a subsidy.

21 On the flip side, aside from all the 

22 public health costs, the other costs of climate 

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1 change, and of storm surge, and of sea level rise 

2 in South Florida, and throughout all the coastal 

3 communities out there are just huge. There are 

4 places in Miami that, when you go to work in the 

5 morning, if there is a storm surge, you can't 

6 park in that parking lot because it's all 

7 flooded. It doesn't even have to rain that big. 

8 In terms of how it affects tourism -- so 

9 if you speak to the Broward County office that 

10 deals with planning for adaptation, when we have 

11 high storm surges and it pulls all the sand up 

12 from the beach, that is millions of dollars of 

13 cost and of lost income for the state, in terms 

14 of businesses, in terms of tourism. So that's 

15 very real. That's happening now and that will 

16 continue to actually get worse. So I urge you to 

17 maintain a strong rule, and to even improve it, 

18 because of the costs that we're already bearing 

19 on that side, and how it's going to get worse.

20 Just as my time is ending, it's a very 

21 simple cost-benefit analysis, and we're not 

22 factoring in a lot of the other costs. I just 

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1 pulled these from an op-ed in a newspaper, in 

2 terms of like medical costs, property damage from 

3 climate disruption, getting more reliable energy 

4 as we might focus on energy efficiency and 

5 renewables. Just a better protection for our 

6 natural resources.

7 I think it is actually a very simple 

8 cost-benefit analysis and I strongly urge you 

9 maintain this rule as a strong rule.

10 Thank you very much.

11 MS. BANISTER: Thank you. Any clarifying 

12 comments or questions? Thank you so much.

13 I would invite now Colleen Kiernan and 

14 Albert Roesel. If you would state your name, 

15 Colleen, and spell it for the court reporter, 

16 please.

17 MS. KIERNAN: Sure. My name is Colleen 

18 Kiernan. My first name is spelled C-o-l-l-e-e-n 

19 and my last name is Kiernan, K-i-e-r-n-a-n.

20 MS. BANISTER: Okay. Go ahead.

21 MS. KIERNAN: Thank you, everybody, for 

22 being here this afternoon. I'm the Director of 

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1 the Georgia Chapter of the Sierra Club, and I 

2 moved to Atlanta in 1995 to attend Emory 

3 University. The reason I picked Emory was 

4 because they have a really strong debate program. 

5 The Barkley Forum is one of the best policy 

6 debate programs in the country, and in 1996 the 

7 topic was climate change, and the resolution that 

8 year was that the United States should 

9 substantially reduce carbon pollution. 

10 And so since 1996, I read all of the 

11 research then and was convinced at that time that 

12 this was the most important problem facing my 

13 generation, and I've dedicated my career to 

14 working on this issue, but it's astounding to me 

15 that 18 years later, we're essentially having the 

16 same debate, even though the science has been 

17 clear since 1996.

18 Fast forward to one of the first projects 

19 I worked on professionally with the Sierra Club. 

20 We were running around and talking about the 

21 three coal-fired power plants in Georgia that 

22 were cited for new source review violations. 

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1 Those were Plants Bowen, Scherer, and Kraft. We 

2 had a hearing up in Cartersville, Georgia, the 

3 home of Plant Bowen, so we were talking about 

4 whether Plant Bowen could clean up or not. And 

5 the mayor of Cartersville came to this hearing 

6 and he testified that we could not clean up Plant 

7 Bowen, in fact, because Georgia Power paid for 

8 character education in the Cartersville Public 

9 Schools. 

10 And as a young professional, I kind of 

11 fell out of my chair, because that argument 

12 doesn't really make any sense. Why can we not 

13 clean up Plant Bowen? Because Georgia Power pays 

14 for character education in schools. Those two 

15 are not related, as far as I was concerned. But 

16 those are the same types of arguments we're 

17 hearing still today, that cleaning up power 

18 plants and moving towards cleaner types of energy 

19 is going to cost too much. That is the thrust of 

20 the arguments that we're hearing about. 

21 But, we know that since this hearing 

22 happened in 2002, we have cleaned up Plant Bowen. 

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1 Plant Bowen now has selective catalytic 

2 production, it has scrubbers, and the air is

3 cleaner, and the children in Cartersville are 

4 less sick, as well as the children in all of 

5 metro Atlanta. So those arguments, EPA needs to 

6 keep making progress, and, of course, I'm here 

7 with the rest of my colleagues with the Sierra 

8 Club, who have been here for the last day and a 

9 half, supporting the rule. 

10 But I wanted to give that anecdote 

11 because back since 1996, in my personal 

12 experience, this is the same argument we've been 

13 having since 2002. We've been saying that the 

14 utilities can't do such-and-such because it's 

15 going to cost too much, but every time we make 

16 those investments, society, as a whole, benefits, 

17 and this policy is another great example of if we 

18 make these investments, society, as a whole, will 

19 benefit.

20 I haven't been here to hear everybody's 

21 testimony over the last day and a half, but I've 

22 read some of the news coverage of some of our 

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1 public service commissioners, and some of our 

2 friends in the utilities that are talking about 

3 how much it's going to cost and how undoable this 

4 really. So I wanted to take a minute to walk 

5 through some of the math. 

6 It's my position, and the Georgia Chapter 

7 of the Sierra Club's position, that we can meet 

8 the Georgia target of 834 pounds per megawatt9 hour entirely through energy efficiency. So even 

10 if we stopped building Plant Vogtle and didn't 

11 take advantage of any of that carbon-free energy, 

12 we could meet our entire target with just energy 

13 efficiency alone, and energy efficiency is the 

14 cleanest, cheapest, safest, and most reliable 

15 form of energy.

16 So let's do the math. I printed out, and 

17 I can leave here with you today, a CEEE, which is 

18 the authority on how much energy efficiency there 

19 is. We have these charts. So the big blue bar 

20 is what the energy efficiency potential is for 

21 the state of Georgia. And so, in 2030, that 

22 number is about 34 million megawatt-hours. And 

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1 then we've overlaid, at the bottom, these littler 

2 blue bars are EPA's assumptions for how much 

3 energy efficiency you're using in the building 

4 blocks. And so by 2030, we get up to 12 million 

5 megawatt-hours.

6 Then we look at how much we're assuming, 

7 or EPA assumed we need to get from Vogtle. This 

8 is a synapse little tool that we printed out. 

9 The total is 209 pounds per megawatt-hour. So to 

10 translate that into how much of that needs to 

11 come from energy efficiency, we just need to do 

12 some pretty simple math. So here we'll start 

13 writing the numbers.

14 Okay. So to review the numbers, the 

15 potential -- I'll go back in a second. So that's 

16 what's left. So, essentially, the difference 

17 between the potential and what EPA is assuming is 

18 22 million and Vogtle is only 19, so we have 3 

19 million extra that we can get just from energy 

20 efficiency. We could meet our entire load with 

21 energy efficiency, even if we stopped building 

22 Vogtle today. So the fact that our Public 

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1 Service Commission and Georgia Power have decided 

2 to pursue the most expensive way to do this type 

3 of carbon-free power is irrelevant. We can do 

4 this. The 834 pounds per megawatt-hour is a 

5 great goal and we support it. 

6 Thank you.

7 MS. BANISTER: Thank you, and you're 

8 going to leave that as part of your testimony? 

9 Thank you so much. Do you have any questions 

10 right now? Okay. If you would state your name 

11 and spell it for the reporter.

12 MR. ROESEL: I'm Albert Roesel. That's 

13 A-l-b-e-r-t, Roesel, R-o-e-s-e-l. I am a retired 

14 teacher. I was born in the early part of World 

15 War II, when the U.S. was recognized as the 

16 arsenal of freedom, at a time shortly after a 

17 Japanese officer remarked on having awakened a 

18 sleeping giant. The concentration of greenhouse 

19 gases in the atmosphere at the time were under 

20 300 parts per million. 

21 Since successfully facing the challenges 

22 of that time, we recognized and overcame other 

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1 close to overwhelming challenges, including civil 

2 rights, and the space race. As a result, I've 

3 come to think of my country in terms, agreeing 

4 with its highest aspirations. I've grown to 

5 think of the United States as the can-do country, 

6 the country that will rise to and overcome any 

7 obstacle, no matter how great, if the challenge 

8 is worthy.

9 Now the concentration of carbon dioxide 

10 in the atmosphere exceeds 400 parts per million, 

11 a level greater than ever before in human 

12 history, a level not seen in hundreds of 

13 thousands of years. As a result, the glaciers 

14 are melting, the forests are burning, the ocean 

15 is acidifying and rising, and major agricultural 

16 states are in drought. Year after year, the 

17 situation has become more dire, but the U.S. has 

18 been acting as though it were blind and deaf, if 

19 not stuporous, not only failing to address the 

20 problem but continuing to exacerbate it.

21 Finally, with all life on Earth at risk, 

22 the EPA is proposing a Clean Power Plan to begin 

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1 to deal with human-driven climate change. Is the 

2 sleeping giant once again rousing itself? The 

3 thought is encouraging. I have been distraught 

4 watching this climate catastrophe cascading in 

5 the late years of my life, having grown up with 

6 the idea that each generation is obligated to 

7 leave succeeding generations better off, knowing 

8 that, instead, we have loaded the dice against 

9 the dreams of our children.

10 Now, with EPA's Clean Power Plan, I have 

11 a glimmer of hope. It's not enough, but it's a 

12 start.

13 Thank you.

14 MS. BANISTER: Thank you. Any clarifying 

15 comments or questions? Thank you so much for 

16 both coming this afternoon and submitting your 

17 comments.

18 Now I would like to invite Tanisha Thomas 

19 and Liz Peterson. Are you Ms. Thomas or are you 

20 Ms. Peterson?

21 MS. THOMAS: Ms. Thomas.

22 MS. BANISTER: Okay. Is Liz in, 

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1 Peterson? Okay. Thank you and welcome.

2 MS. THOMAS: Thank you.

3 MS. BANISTER: Would you state your name 

4 as well as spell it for the court reporter?

5 MS. THOMAS: My name is Tanisha Thomas. T-a-n-i6 s-h-a, Thomas, T-h-o-m-a-s.

7 MS. BANISTER: Okay. Great. You may 

8 start.

9 MS. THOMAS: First of all, I want to 

10 thank the EPA for giving me the opportunity to 

11 speak here today on such an important issue. 

12 Growing up in metro Atlanta, I have experienced 

13 first-hand the effects that ongoing climate 

14 change can have on the health of a young child. 

15 At a very early age, I was diagnosed with sickle 

16 cell anemia, an illness that led to other 

17 complications such as acute chest syndrome and 

18 asthma-related symptoms. 

19 I remember once, after having a pulmonary 

20 check-up, my doctor proclaiming that Atlanta is 

21 possibly one of the worst cities for me to live 

22 in, due to the constant cycle of heat waves and 

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1 drought that has been proven as a real health 

2 threat, especially to elderly folks and kids with 

3 asthma and lung-related diseases.

4 I know that over the past few days, you 

5 have heard many testimonies proclaiming that the 

6 regulations proposed in the Clean Power Plan will 

7 have bad effects on our economy, and you've heard 

8 people even deny that coal-fired plants have any 

9 relation to the increase of pulmonary diseases in 

10 the past 30 years, for both young and old 

11 citizens. However, I must say that anyone that 

12 would think like that couldn't possibly be 

13 thinking about the health of our youth.

14 Power plants are the number one source of 

15 carbon pollution in the U.S., accounting for over 

16 40 percent of carbon emissions, a proven link to 

17 aggravate and intensify many of these illnesses. 

18 I'm asking you, as a young person who has 

19 experienced first-hand how the extreme amounts of 

20 carbon pollution could diminish one's health and 

21 the regulations set out by the Clean Power Plan 

22 must be put into effect immediately, not just to 

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1 protect the health of our youth here in Georgia, 

2 or even the Southeast, but all over our nation.

3 Thank you.

4 MS. BANISTER: Thank you, Tanisha.

5 MS. THOMAS: Thank you.

6 MS. BANISTER: Do you have any comments, 

7 clarifying comments or questions? Thank you so 

8 much.

9 MS. THOMAS: Thank you.

10 MS. BANISTER: I would invite Liz 

11 Peterson to come up. Thank you for coming out 

12 and sharing your comments with us today.

13 MS. PETERSON: Thank you very much. I'm 

14 sure you guys are exhausted. My name is Liz 

15 Peterson --

16 MS. BANISTER: Oh, if you could, yeah, 

17 go ahead, and just spell your name for the court 

18 reporter.

19 MS. PETERSON: Okay. It's L-i-z P-e-t-e20 r-s-o-n. So, first of all, thank you for hearing 

21 us all out on all sides of this issue, which I 

22 think is one of the most important issues of our 

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1 time. This hearing is a unique opportunity for 

2 us to exercise our democratic right to speak 

3 about legislation that affects us. 

4 I recently completed an art project where 

5 I painted portraits of environmentalists who had 

6 been killed around the world for their activism, 

7 and so I didn't really realize until I was going 

8 through that project how special it is, our right 

9 to come and speak about this legislation which 

10 affects all of us so much.

11 So that's one of the reasons that I'm 

12 here today, but the other reason is because of my 

13 two children, who are also here, very bravely, to 

14 speak. Just as I wouldn't passively stand by if 

15 somebody wanted to smoke in my daughter's bedroom 

16 or dump trash on our lawn, I also don't feel like 

17 I can passively stand by while different 

18 industries are dumping toxins into our air or 

19 contributing to climate change, which I believe 

20 is happening. I believe we're already witnessing 

21 the effects of it.

22 So for that reason, I wholeheartedly 

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1 support the EPA's Clean Power Plan to reduce 

2 carbon emissions. And just to tell you a little 

3 bit about me, I grew up on the Gulf Coast of 

4 Florida, a little bit outside of Pensacola. We 

5 were a family of five living in a one-room 

6 fishing shack, where we grew our own vegetables 

7 and fished weekly for food. So we were actually 

8 a very poor family, and the land and water 

9 literally sustained us there.

10 Now this area where my family still lives 

11 is assaulted on a regular basis by the wreckage 

12 of the fossil fuel industry, including the BP oil 

13 spill and an unprecedented flood this spring that 

14 left my sister and many other residents without a 

15 home and a car, so my sister is currently living 

16 with my mother. We've been having a lot of 

17 unprecedented weather this year, all over the 

18 country and all over the world, and I believe 

19 it's going to get worse if we don't act 

20 immediately and decisively by first adopting the 

21 Clean Power Plan. I think there's a lot of other 

22 work to do after that, but this is a good first 

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1 step.

2 I do hope that my children, Ben and Lucy, 

3 will be able to visit my parents along the coast, 

4 go swimming, and eat seafood from the clean water 

5 and breathe fresh air for many years into the 

6 future. I hope that our generation's appetite 

7 for comfort and money don't deprive them of the 

8 world that we were lucky enough to inherit.

9 Thank you.

10 MS. BANISTER: Thank you.

11 MS. GRADY: I'm Lucy Grady. L-u-c-y G-r12 a-d-y. I recently learned that carbon emissions 

13 come from power plants which produce power for us 

14 to use. I do think that power is important and 

15 we depend on it very much for our work and heat 

16 and lighting, and a lot of other significant 

17 things that we use in our everyday lifestyle. 

18 But if carbon is polluting the air on the Earth 

19 and making us more prone to ailments like asthma 

20 and bronchitis, then I would rather just stick 

21 with candles.

22 In China, the air pollution is caused by 

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1 many different types of pollutants, but carbon 

2 emission is one of them. The air is so bad there 

3 that citizens who live in certain parts of China 

4 are told to stay inside their homes, and when 

5 they do come out they have to wear masks because 

6 they can't breathe in the pollution. 

7 In the U.S., coal is the single largest 

8 air pollution. It can cause smog and climate 

9 change and also toxic air emissions. If we don't 

10 reduce the amounts of carbon emissions, then our 

11 air can be almost as bad as that of China, over 

12 time, especially if we added more power plants to 

13 the country.

14 Out of the 196 countries in the world 

15 today, we're the 83rd with the highest pollution, 

16 which is not too bad but if we don't do anything 

17 about the country's pollution rate, then we could 

18 end up hurting the health of our citizens and 

19 adding to the effects of climate change.

20 I want my future to be as great as some 

21 of the most accomplished scientists, leaders, and 

22 overall successful adults of the world's day. I 

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1 want my planet to be healthy so that kids can 

2 have really good jobs and lead lives that can't 

3 be affected by the problems of the environment, 

4 but if we're unhealthy and we always need to be 

5 tending to the dilemmas that don't involve our 

6 future, then we might never get there.

7 So I want the Earth to be a clean and 

8 healthy place for humans to live on, but air 

9 pollution can make our environment unhealthy and 

10 unsafe.

11 MS. BANISTER: Thank you so much. Do you 

12 have a comment?

13 MR. STENHOUSE: I have a question, Lucy. 

14 You mentioned something about the U.S. being 83rd 

15 of 196 countries in sort of, I guess, a pollution

16 measure. Do you know where that statistic came 

17 from?

18 MS. GRADY: I just did a bunch of 

19 research earlier today, so, yeah, I just read a 

20 list of the countries ranked by highest 

21 pollution.

22 MR. STENHOUSE: Well, if you submit any 

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1 written comments to our rule-making, including 

2 where you found that particular statistic, it 

3 would be helpful.

4 MS. GRADY: Okay. Thank you.

5 MR. STENHOUSE: Thank you.

6 MS. BANISTER: Thank you both. I 

7 appreciate you all coming out this evening. Ben, 

8 is he here? Yes. Come up. Ben Grady. Thank 

9 you, Ben, for joining us. If you would state 

10 your name, spell it for the court reporter, 

11 please.

12 MR. GRADY: My name is Ben Grady. B-e-n 

13 G-r-a-d-y. Yeah. Today I'd like to address the 

14 issue at hand which is carbon emissions. The 

15 EPA's plan to reduce emissions by 30 percent by 

16 2030 was called authoritarian by some and 

17 revolutionary by others. It is a plan that I 

18 personally think is fantastic. While these 

19 emissions may not affect the adults at this time, 

20 it will definitely affect the children and teens. 

21 I will grow up in a world where pollution 

22 problems are even more severe than they are now. 

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1 Right now, in China, power plants are 

2 polluting the air so much that people in certain 

3 cities have to wear breathing masks before they 

4 go outside. It's horrible that it's happening 

5 there and the way things are going now it's not 

6 unrealistic to think that it could happen here, 

7 in the United States.

8 With this plan in place, you are making 

9 the lives of millions of children safer. Some 

10 people will try to tell you that putting in this 

11 plan will take away thousands of jobs. This is 

12 untrue. The way the solar power industry is 

13 growing, the jobs will simply be transferred.

14 Carbon emissions don't only harm humans 

15 but they also harm the animals of the earth. 

16 Animals go extinct nearly every single day, 

17 without anyone noticing. Carbon emissions, in 

18 short, are horrible. They heat up the 

19 atmosphere, causing things to happen like the 

20 melting of the ice caps and extreme climate 

21 changes. 

22 A recent study from Stanford linked 

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1 carbon emissions to increased deaths. If these 

2 emissions increase at the rate they are today, 

3 not only will we be out of fuel very, very soon, 

4 we will all be a little bit closer to the end of 

5 our lives. Running out of fuel won't be that big 

6 of a problem if we invest in power generators 

7 other than coal. 

8 One Alabama representative stated that 

9 God has given us coal, and that by not using it 

10 we are just -- it would be unfair not to use it 

11 when He has so righteously provided for us. 

12 However, it can also be argued that God gave us 

13 wind, God gave us the sun, and God gave us all 

14 the other innovative new ways to generate power. 

15 Solar power is one of the fastest-growing 

16 industries in the United States. 

17 Why use things that seriously harm us 

18 when we can use more advanced technology? Coal 

19 is a dated power source. It's like one of those 

20 enormous phones from the '90s. It still works 

21 but why use it when there are so many better 

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1 fashioned way, as it endangers millions.

2 Now, I don't know what you think about 

3 that, but personally I think it's messed up. 

4 Let's take a step in the forward direction and 

5 pass this plan, not just to ensure your safety 

6 but to ensure ours, too.

7 Thank you.

8 MS. BANISTER: Thank you. Clarifying 

9 questions or comments?

10 MR. STENHOUSE: I would just ask, you 

11 mentioned the study from Stanford that links 

12 mortality to climate change or greenhouse gas 

13 emissions. If you follow up with a submission 

14 indicating to us which study that is and how we 

15 might get a copy of it would be helpful.

16 MR. GRADY: Yeah. Okay. I can do that.

17 MR. STENHOUSE: Great. Thank you.

18 MS. BANISTER: Great. Thank you so much 

19 for your comments. That's great.

20 So, again, I just want to thank everyone 

21 for participating this afternoon. We're going to 

22 take a break now, and at 3:30 we're going to all 

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1 resume in Room B. So at 3:30 we're going to 

2 resume in Room B. 

3 So thank you again, and we look forward 

4 to seeing you shortly in Room B. I think it's 

5 3:15, so you have a 15-minute break.

6 [Recess at 3:15 p.m.]

7 EVENING SESSION

8 MS. BANISTER: Good evening. We're going 

9 to go ahead and get started, so if you all would 

10 take your seats, we'll go ahead and start this 

11 evening's session.

12 Good evening. My name is Beverly 

13 Banister. I am the Air, Pesticides, and Toxics 

14 Management Division Director here in Region 4, 

15 located here in Atlanta, and I am one of the 

16 Chairs of the public hearing for tonight. Thank 

17 you for coming.

18 Joining me on the panel this evening is 

19 Darryl Weatherhead, who is a managing economist 

20 on this team, and also Julia Miller, who is an 

21 energy efficiency expert with our Office of Air 

22 and Radiation.

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1 We are here this afternoon to listen to 

2 your comments on two proposed rules to reduce 

3 carbon pollution from power plants. EPA 

4 announced both of these proposed rules on June 2, 

5 2014. Power plants are the largest source of 

6 carbon pollution in the U.S., accounting for 

7 roughly one-third of all the domestic greenhouse 

8 gas emissions. 

9 The first rule is EPA's proposed Clean 

10 Power Plan for existing power plants. This 

11 proposal consists of two main parts: state12 specific goals to lower carbon pollution from 

13 power plants and guidelines to help states 

14 develop their plans for meeting their goals. 

15 This proposal gives states flexibility in 

16 determining how to meet their goals. States 

17 would choose what goes into their plans, that 

18 show how they will achieve is needed in 

19 reductions and meet their goals by 2030.

20 The second rule is EPA's proposed plan to 

21 address carbon dioxide emissions from modified 

22 and reconstructed power plants. This rule would 

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1 set emission limits for two groups of power 

2 plants: those that make physical or operational 

3 changes that increase the plant's maximum 

4 achievable hourly rate of emissions, and those 

5 that replace components to such an extent that 

6 the new components exceed 50 percent of the 

7 capital costs of an entirely new comparable 

8 facility.

9 If you would like more details on either 

10 of these proposed rules, there are fact sheets 

11 available near the registration desk.

12 This hearing is one of four public 

13 hearings across the country this week on the two 

14 proposed rules. We have had a tremendous 

15 interest in each of the hearings, and I'd like to 

16 thank you each of you for coming out tonight to 

17 share your comments and thoughts on these 

18 proposals. 

19 This evening will conclude our public 

20 hearing. We have a number of people that have 

21 signed up for tonight, and we want to hear from 

22 all of them. So before we get started, I'd like 

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1 to go through a few housekeeping items and ground 

2 rules that will help make tonight's hearing run 

3 smoothly.

4 First, be sure that you have checked in 

5 at the registration desk. Even if you're not 

6 planning to speak tonight, if you haven't already 

7 checked in we want to make sure that we have your 

8 name and your information. If you signed in 

9 online or by phone but haven't told us that you 

10 have arrived, please do so now, so, again, we can 

11 acknowledge you and get you on the speaking 

12 agenda.

13 Secondly, if you are speaking -- well, 

14 some of you guys may have been here earlier 

15 today, so we have basically consolidated to one 

16 room, so we're not meeting in Room B, so all of 

17 our discussion will be in Room A tonight.

18 This is how we will work the hearing 

19 tonight. I will call speakers up in pairs. When 

20 your name is called, please come to the table at 

21 the front of the room, which is right here. When 

22 I call on you to speak, please state your name 

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1 and spell it for the court reporter. Your 

2 comments will be transcribed and included in a 

3 record of comments on the proposed rule. 

4 Each speaker will have 5 minutes to give 

5 comments. We have a light to help you know how 

6 much time you have left to speak, which is right 

7 here. When the light turns from green to yellow, 

8 that means you have 1 minute remaining. When it 

9 turns to red, that's the signal to wrap up your 

10 testimony. The light will flash red and beep 

11 when you have spoken for 5 minutes, and that's 

12 the signal to wrap up. 

13 When you are finished speaking, please 

14 remain at the table until the person next to you 

15 has completed his or her testimony. We are here 

16 to listen to you tonight. However, a panel 

17 member may ask you a question or clarify your 

18 comments. I will then call up the next pair of 

19 speakers, and so on. If you have brought a 

20 written copy of your testimony, please give it to 

21 the staff at the registration desk before you 

22 leave tonight.

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1 Because of the large number of people 

2 that have signed up to speak, and we want to be 

3 fair to everyone, we are going to closely adhere 

4 to the 5-minute limit. If you have additional 

5 comments that you'd like to make, we encourage 

6 you to submit them to us in writing.

7 Let me assure you that EPA gives just as 

8 much considerations to comments that we receive 

9 in writing as we do comments we have received at 

10 public hearings like this one, so if you have 

11 more that you would like to say, please submit 

12 it. Your comments will be reviewed. 

13 There is still plenty of time to get 

14 written comments in, and there are comment cards 

15 available at the registration desk. Comments 

16 must be received by October 16, 2014. We will 

17 put any written comments submitted today in the 

18 official docket for the proposed rule. 

19 Instructions for submitting written comments in 

20 other ways are available at the materials table 

21 near the registration desk. 

22 We are scheduled to go until 8 p.m. 

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1 tonight. We will probably take a break, a short 

2 break around 7 for a transition in chairs, where 

3 Fred Thompson will be coming up from our 

4 headquarters office to chair, but we will keep 

5 you posted as the night goes on.

6 If you have any questions, please see the 

7 staff at the registration desk and we will try to 

8 assist you.

9 Finally, I want to ask each of you to 

10 please be respectful of everyone who speaks 

11 tonight. We have people with a wide variety of 

12 views in the audience and we want to hear from 

13 all of you. So that we can do that and be fair 

14 to everyone, we ask that everyone listens 

15 quietly. Even applause can slow things down, and 

16 we want to hear from everyone who has signed up 

17 to speak. 

18 So thank you again for coming out tonight 

19 and being a part of this hearing over the course 

20 of the past two days. So let's get started.

21 The first two speakers that I would like 

22 to join us here at the front table are Chip 

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1 Beeker and Paul Reynolds. Thank you both for 

2 joining us tonight. We look forward to your 

3 comments. And, Mr. Beeker, if you could state 

4 your name and spell it for the court reporter.

5 MR. BEEKER: My name is Chip Beeker, C-h6 i-p B-e-e-k-e-r.

7 MS. BANISTER: Okay.

8 MR. BEEKER: I'm delighted that you 

9 invited me and thank you. Is that too loud?

10 MS. BANISTER: No. You're fine.

11 MR. BEEKER: And thank you so much for 

12 having me here. I'm excited to tell you about 

13 the last little over a year in my life. I'm a 

14 farmer, and I'm a businessman, and I know what it 

15 means to have to make a payroll and I know what 

16 it means to come to the end of the month and you 

17 have to be sure that everything fits together so 

18 that you can pay your bills, and, in my case, it 

19 depends on an affordable and reliable utility.

20 I am also Commissioner-Elect on the 

21 Public Service in Alabama for Place Number 2, and 

22 I'm excited about being able to go there, and 

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1 hopefully really help the state and surrounding 

2 states and our people in the state of Alabama.

3 Those last 14 months that I mentioned a 

4 while ago, I traveled across Alabama, north to 

5 south and east to west, and I talked to many 

6 interesting people, and I asked them about their 

7 concerns, how they were doing and how they felt, 

8 and met a range of people -- well, you can just 

9 imagine when you travel the state like that --

10 and time and time again I kept hearing, "We're 

11 interested in jobs and talking about jobs, and 

12 we're very interested in Alabama's economy, and 

13 what can you do, and what place do you have, and 

14 what will you play in that, and how can you help

15 us?"

16 Real interesting. They said that they 

17 were fearful of their utility rates rising, and 

18 asked questions, "What can you do about that?" I 

19 heard from many, hundreds. We have a large coal 

20 deposit in the state of Alabama, and thousands of 

21 people who are employed there. And I heard them 

22 telling me that they were worried. Now, I told 

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1 you that they were fearful, and they said, "We 

2 heard it on the news that the government is 

3 waging a war on us." And I said, "Well, I heard 

4 the comment about there's a war on coal," and so 

5 I don't think that was a good term to use that 

6 there's a war and these people are employed. 

7 They're gravely concerned. Many, many 

8 work in the mines, and I had a privilege to go to 

9 some of the mines and visit with those people, 

10 and I have some pictures, photographs with them 

11 coming out and them expressing their concerns to 

12 me, and grandfathers and as far back as they 

13 could remember they've worked in the coal mines. 

14 Several talked about obligations they had, and 

15 children that they had that would be going to 

16 college and moving into a new home and wanting 

17 another child and afraid that they might lose 

18 their job, and if they didn’t lose it they would 

19 be cut down to 2 days a week instead of 5 days a 

20 week.

21 So, early on, I set several foundational 

22 marks, and I made statements to people, and I 

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1 said the foundation that I will protect these 

2 consumers. I'll do all in my power to do that, 

3 and I will see to it that the rates, the utility 

4 rates will be kept about the same as they are, 

5 and certainly not going up, and I will focus on 

6 trying to create jobs. And I know when you 

7 create a job, it improves the economy. Over and 

8 over, the people said, "I want my children to be 

9 able to work here in Alabama. I don't want them 

10 to have to go somewhere, and we are afraid that 

11 that may not be the case."

12 So then the third pillar that I had, I 

13 said, "I'll stand against the new regulations 

14 that will hinder," because the word had been out 

15 that it is a necessity that the rates would 

16 skyrocket. That's a term of fear, when you're 

17 dealing with people who are trying to make plans 

18 with their families and with what they're going 

19 to do, and when you see the fear, I said, "Well, 

20 I'll fight against that. I'll fight against 

21 those regulations. I'll see to it that 

22 everything that Alabama can do so that we can 

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1 maintain what we have, I'll do that."

2 Then, on July the 15th, the people sent a 

3 strong message of rejection to these regulations 

4 from the EPA, and they elected me. They 

5 demonstrated a clear understanding of the 

6 difference between affordable energy and a 

7 healthy economy. So I believe that I carry a 

8 mandate from them and with me, and here today I'm 

9 beginning to fulfill my promise to them, that I 

10 will go, and I will talk about that, and I will 

11 take their plight to whomever I can get to 

12 listen.

13 Not only is it to keep these rates low 

14 that's critical for the families, but growing 

15 industry and attracting new jobs in our state is 

16 very critical. We're starting to do a good job. 

17 We're having businesses come into our state, and 

18 I'm a firm believer that the state of Alabama, 

19 and Alabamians, should be able to utilize our 

20 God-given resources, and we should be able to 

21 utilize them in a manner in which determined is 

22 best for our state. We don't want to leave 

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1 others out, but let us determine that, and let us 

2 work through that.

3 I'm really focused on doing that. We do 

4 not think that these blanket policies, developed 

5 by the Federal Government, can help us. We think 

6 that they are designed not to help us. They're 

7 designed to hurt us, that we cannot use our 

8 natural resources in a way that we would like to. 

9 We have many companies that have their 

10 eye on the state of Alabama, and we've started 

11 getting some of those companies, and we tell them 

12 that we have an abundance of natural resources, 

13 and well them that we will do everything in our 

14 power, that they can count on a fixed rate and 

15 can count on a natural resource -- electricity or 

16 natural gas or whatever it is -- at the time when 

17 they need it most. Most of the industry really 

18 needs to start the process going at about 9 

19 o'clock. So we tell them we can furnish that, 

20 and we can do it if we do not have people from 

21 the outside regulating us to hinder that.

22 So I'm really excited that I am going to 

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1 have a chance, and I will be able to talk to 

2 those people, and I will be able to talk to those 

3 companies, and I will assure them, and affirm to 

4 them that I will vote that way, that I will help 

5 in any way that I can. We have scientists out 

6 there, and we have a real good scientist named 

7 John Christy who lives in Alabama, Dr. Christy. 

8 I've attended several of his seminars and I 

9 recommend that you do too, if you have an 

10 opportunity. 

11 He is an awfully gifted person, and he 

12 keeps up with all of the energy facts, and he 

13 keeps up with the CO2, and he tells us how much 

14 it really affects the nation and how much it 

15 affects the ozone, and it's got facts and facts 

16 and figures. And he's invited me to come and to 

17 sit down, and to take part when the scientists 

18 meet. He's at the University of Alabama in 

19 Huntsville, and it's exciting to see the 

20 businesspeople that come and talk to him. It's 

21 exciting to see when they come down and say, 

22 "What can you do? How can you promise us that 

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1 these things will not happen, this overreach in 

2 the Obama administration?" And I said, "The one 

3 promise that I can make you is that I will not 

4 vote for that. I will vote for keeping the 

5 rates, keeping what we have like it is."

6 Most of the people do not know that there 

7 has been $2.5 billion spent already on the steam 

8 plants in Alabama. There will be another $1 

9 billion with the new regulations that are coming 

10 out. Well, who's to pay for that? Where does 

11 that money come from? How do you plug that in? 

12 How can you attract industry when -- I didn't 

13 hear you.

14 I'm sorry. I thought you were talking to 

15 me. But how, without us knowing, how can we 

16 plan? How can we do that when we've been 

17 threatened by a war on coal? People are afraid, 

18 and the industries are afraid.

19 So I will stand my ground. I've told the 

20 coal associations, and I've told the people, and 

21 I've told the industries that want to come to 

22 Alabama that they can count on me and my vote, 

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1 and I'll certainly -- did it blink?

2 MS. BANISTER: No. I think that it's not 

3 working, so I think that the 5 minutes has 

4 expired, though.

5 MR. BEEKER: I didn't know. Ladies and 

6 gentlemen, to put it very simply, if these new 

7 guidelines are enacted, the EPA will forever be 

8 known as the Employment Prevention Agency in the 

9 state of Alabama.

10 I'm sorry. I didn't mean to overextend.

11 MS. BANISTER: No, that's fine. Thank 

12 you so much for your comments.

13 MR. BEEKER: Yes, ma'am.

14 MS. BANISTER: Do you guys have any 

15 clarifying comments or questions? Thank you so 

16 much. That's fine. Thank you.

17 Do we want to see if that's going to 

18 work, or do we have the other one? Greg, do we 

19 have the other one?

20 Okay. Mr. Reynolds. Would you state your 

21 name and spell it for the court reporter?

22 MR. REYNOLDS: Yes. My name is Paul 

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1 Reynolds, P-a-u-l R-e-y-n-o-l-d-s, and I, too, am 

2 a native Alabamian. I'm the founder of Reynolds 

3 Technical Associates, a family-owned RF and 

4 broadcast engineering business, located in the 

5 greater Birmingham area. It is my pleasure to 

6 serve as the Republican National Committeeman 

7 representing the state of Alabama on the 

8 Republican National Committee, and as chairman of 

9 a public policy organization called the Alabama 

10 Free Market Alliance.

11 Thank you for the opportunity to testify 

12 today. I do stand here today, or sit here today, 

13 in opposition, full opposition to the new 

14 regulations the EPA is proposing under the Clean 

15 Air Act. Speaking as one who has first-hand 

16 experience with adverse federal regulations, it 

17 is my firm belief that if proper consideration is 

18 given to the effects these regulations will have 

19 with the working individuals in our state and 

20 other states, also, these regulations will be 

21 shelved and never revisited. 

22 Adverse effects from excessive government 

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1 regulations are both primary and secondary. In 

2 other words, there are intended and unintended 

3 circumstances. It is economically impossible to 

4 demonstrate one economic gain ever realized that 

5 was brought about by an increase in federal 

6 regulations of the free market.

7 Let me say that again. It is impossible 

8 to score an economic consideration that increased 

9 the wealth of the common working person in the 

10 free market, that was brought about as a result 

11 of increased government regulations. These 

12 regulations stand to have a crippling effect on 

13 the well-being of working families in Alabama and 

14 in the Southeast, all the way from West Virginia.

15 First, there are more than 16,000 

16 families who depend on the coal industry for 

17 their livelihood. Coal is one of Alabama's most 

18 abundant natural resources we have, as a state, 

19 and it is also in the exercise of our 

20 sovereignty. We really have the right, as a 

21 state, to make our own decisions until our 

22 decisions start adversely affecting other. 

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1 There's nothing been proved yet that this is the 

2 case. 

3 And what's happening, we're making a 

4 villain out of the coal industry and hard-working 

5 men and women who are in the coal fields, 

6 working, and it's being done by people who are 

7 trying to make political hay at Georgetown 

8 cocktail parties of the liberal elite by shutting 

9 down completely it's simplicity and unacceptable 

10 for our nation to do this to the coal industry.

11 Second, eliminating coal is an option for 

12 electrical generation. It will make it virtually 

13 impossible for Alabama to maintain its low-price 

14 utilities. This is one of the things that we 

15 have in our pocket that when we go to call on an 

16 industry that's wanting to relocate to the state, 

17 and we've got several examples of that that have 

18 happened recently, with billion-dollar plants, 

19 one of the things that we have in our back pocket 

20 is low-cost electricity. This is going to take 

21 away that, with over-burdensome regulations. 

22 I hope you're fully aware of the impact 

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1 that these regulations will have on hundreds of 

2 thousands of family budgets in the state of 

3 Alabama alone.

4 And then, finally, the pressure point 

5 that I wish to highlight will be the impact on

6 the job creators, and I am one of those, as a 

7 small business man. The job creators are the 

8 ones that have to pick up the additional cost. 

9 We're blessed, in Alabama, to have low-cost 

10 operations. It puts more capital back into the 

11 economy. 

12 A scary new concept has risen in the 

13 American free market economy. It is the 

14 misguided idea that government involvement 

15 through ever-increasing regulations brings 

16 increased market value. That is not right. It 

17 is only 180 degrees out of phase. Today, the 

18 free market struggles under the gargantuan load 

19 of a federal register that is daily packed with 

20 new government regulations. Electrical 

21 generation by means of coal cannot and must not 

22 be added to that mix.

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1 Finally, I'd like to make this statement. 

2 Whether it's unrest in the Ukraine, turmoil in 

3 the Middle East, or the crisis at our border, 

4 President Obama and others of regulators should 

5 be concerned about a potential world at war, that 

6 a government pushed war on coal. I implore you 

7 to consider this when making these decisions.

8 Thank you.

9 MS. BANISTER: Thank you both for your 

10 comments. Thank you for coming out tonight. 

11 Thank you. Now I'd like to invite up Dan 

12 Friedman and also Gretchen Elsner. Thank you 

13 both for coming out this evening. Mr. Friedman, 

14 would you start and just state your name and 

15 spell it for the court reporter please?

16 MR. FRIEDMAN: Of course. My name is Dan 

17 Friedman, D-a-n F as in Frank-r-i-e-d-m-a-n. 

18 Before I really get into my comments, just thank 

19 you for being here tonight and giving us the 

20 opportunity to be heard.

21 I have lived in Atlanta since the early 

22 '80s, when I moved to Atlanta from Birmingham, 

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1 Alabama, where I was born and raised. I lived in 

2 Birmingham at the height of steel-making, and 

3 therefore, when the air quality was the poorest. 

4 Even though the particulate counts were more than 

5 double the national average, and lung diseases, 

6 including asthma, were among the highest in the 

7 country, companies including iron and steel, in 

8 and around Birmingham refused to make any 

9 amelioration. I remember well using a 

10 handkerchief to cover my mouth and nose as a 

11 result of the pollution.

12 Because of this inaction, in 1971, U.S. 

13 District Judge Sam C. Pointer issued an 

14 injunction on 23 local companies, including the 

15 steel plants, and prompted the EPA, for the first 

16 time, to utilize the Clean Air Act to shut down 

17 the steel plants, and demonstrated how the 

18 Federal Government could act in emergency 

19 situations to protect, in this case, the citizens 

20 of Birmingham and the surrounding areas. While 

21 Birmingham still has much to do, the improvement 

22 as a result of the implementation of the CAA has 

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1 made a vast improvement.

2 Now, 43 years later, the EPA is now 

3 evaluating another emergency threat to the health 

4 and quality of Americans. Like the steel 

5 industry in Birmingham, the industry is pushing 

6 large amounts of carbon dioxide into the 

7 atmosphere, ignore the science that the vast 

8 majority of environmental scientists believe, and 

9 the long-term repercussions to the citizens of 

10 Georgia, the Southeast, the nation, and the 

11 world.

12 The Huffington-Post, within the last 

13 week, has recently reported that if current 

14 trends continue, mean high summer temperatures 

15 will increase 9 degrees in Georgia, to an average 

16 high of 96 degrees Fahrenheit. Given this 

17 change, peaches, the agricultural commodity for 

18 which Georgia is most known, and requires a mean 

19 summertime temperature in the hottest months of 

20 no more than upper 80s, will mean that Georgia 

21 will no longer be the Peach State.

22 Indeed, many of the top ten agricultural 

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1 products produced in Georgia, including chickens, 

2 eggs, pecans, and corn, as well as the peaches, 

3 will suffer due to prolonged high temperatures 

4 above the mid 90s. Given this threat, the 

5 government must step in to protect individuals, 

6 and because no one else will.

7 While I will not live long enough to see 

8 the worst effects of continuing expulsion of CO2 

9 into our atmosphere, my children and 

10 grandchildren will. Each generation has a sacred 

11 obligation to leave a better country and quality 

12 of life to succeeding generations than what that 

13 generation inherited. 

14 I am here because I have that 

15 responsibility to the future generations of my 

16 family, and, indeed, to all families. I am here 

17 this evening to do what I can to that end, and 

18 therefore I urge you to regulate carbon dioxide 

19 emissions so that future generations will reap 

20 the benefits of our taking action to prevent them 

21 from living in a hell of our making.

22 Thank you.

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1 MS. BANISTER: Thank you. Ms. Elsner, 

2 would you state your name as well as spell it for 

3 the court reporter?

4 MS. ELSNER: My name is Gretchen Elsner, 

5 and it's spelled E-l-s-n-e-r. I live in Athens, 

6 Georgia. I have been riding a bicycle since I 

7 was very young. I was born in Portland, Maine, 

8 and I will never forget when I moved down to 

9 Georgia, when I was about 8, and I went outside 

10 to try to ride my bicycle, I had my first asthma 

11 attack.

12 I spent the better part of the youth that 

13 I spent in Georgia suffering severely from 

14 asthma, but I've also been a very committed 

15 cyclist, because I know that actually 50 percent 

16 of our emissions come from transportation, and a 

17 lot of that is our own choices, to drive 

18 ourselves to go get what we want, whenever we 

19 want it, which is usually now.

20 And a lot of industries are catered 

21 towards meeting that kind of demand for our 

22 private comfort and convenience. So I've been a 

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1 full-time cyclist despite my asthma, for the last 

2 14 years. I moved to British Columbia, which is 

3 not only a nuclear-free zone but provides all of 

4 its electricity from hydroelectric power, and I

5 didn't suffer from asthma for the 10 years that I 

6 lived there, and I came back to Georgia once to 

7 visit my folks and I ended up in the emergency 

8 room because I couldn't breathe.

9 Another environmental health effect that 

10 I've suffered from was when I was 13 years old 

11 and my ovaries exploded from cysts that had been 

12 growing, due to toxicity in my system, and that's 

13 when I learned how detrimental the effects of 

14 nuclear pollution are to the health and 

15 reproductive systems of women, and it is terribly 

16 frightening for me to think of the billions of 

17 gallons nuclear waste that have been dumped into 

18 the oceans by Japan, and we have an incredibly 

19 strong oceanic current that is throwing major 

20 storms up onto the coasts of not just our 

21 American cities but also cities around the world. 

22 We, as people, are responsible for the 

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1 kind of waste that is created in the pursuit of 

2 our comfort and convenience. Power that's being 

3 generated by coal and by nuclear, so that we can 

4 watch television and run our air conditioners as 

5 it gets hotter is having detrimental effects that 

6 will last hundreds of thousands of years into the 

7 future, and the effects are unknown. 

8 These are not economic considerations, of 

9 course, but not only was I born in America, in 

10 Portland, Maine, but I was born on this beautiful 

11 planet, and I love it here. It's a resplendent, 

12 magnificent world to live in, and I feel called 

13 by the power of my convictions and my awe and the 

14 majesty of life to do what I can, as a young 

15 woman, and as I grow older, praise be that I get 

16 to be an old woman and not see my children born 

17 with massive birth defects. 

18 I'm very committed to environmental 

19 action, regardless of government regulation. 

20 I've built myself a solar-powered house out of 

21 recycled materials that can filter water coming 

22 out of any surface stream. We get a lot of 

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1 pollution from fracking. You might not agree 

2 with the climate science of the warm Earth, but 

3 you definitely see a lot of pollution, and we've 

4 got that continent of garbage in the Pacific.

5 I recently made a bicycle trip, a couple 

6 of years ago, down to Mobile, Alabama, where 

7 there is an old salt mine that had been out of 

8 commission, and they pumped it full of water, up 

9 to about 1,700 psi, if I remember correctly, and 

10 realized that this underground cavern, which 

11 wasn't being put to use and was a relic of an 

12 industry that was gone, could actually be used 

13 somehow to further the energy infrastructure of 

14 Alabama. 

15 So they erected a wind turbine, which 

16 powers an air compressor. They created an 

17 underground storage battery, which then runs a 

18 generator that feeds constant electricity into 

19 the grid, and by implementing the kind of 

20 regulations that the EPA is putting forth here 

21 now, it encourages free market to find smarter, 

22 better, more innovative solutions that will not 

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1 only attract progressive, forward-thinking people 

2 to the area, who want to live in a clean 

3 environment, a place where they can raise their 

4 kids, where they're not going to be taking them 

5 to the emergency room because they can't breathe 

6 every other week, or you're watching your 13-

7 year-old daughter writhe in internal bleeding. 

8 You want to go and live in a place that's 

9 beautiful and healthy and clean, and attracting 

10 all kinds of unique business opportunities. 

11 The solar panels for my house were made 

12 right here in Norcross, Georgia. They weren't 

13 made in China. They were made right down the 

14 street. And the money that I earned right here 

15 in this state went to pay for them, and put those 

16 people to work.

17 I've been to the mountaintop coal-mining 

18 removal sites and I've seen the billion gallons 

19 of sludge that are uphill from schools. Like the 

20 fertilizer plant in Texas that burned down, it 

21 leaves citizens up to not only try to find a way 

22 to meet their expenses, but also police 

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1 industries that seem more concerned with their 

2 bottom line than the health of the communities 

3 that they live in.

4 I consider myself lucky to live in a 

5 federated government, where the Federal 

6 Government establishes a foundation of laws to 

7 protect all of the citizens, and the states are 

8 then allowed to build right on top of that 

9 foundation. You can't put people in the 

10 basement, but you can make life better and better 

11 and better. And by setting limits on some of the 

12 more dangerous aspects of what people do and 

13 their own private choices, encourages people to 

14 make better choices that then set an example 

15 across the whole country, and, ultimately, across 

16 the world, because we're all in this together, 

17 and it's too precious of a life for us to be 

18 cavalier with.

19 So thank you very much.

20 MS. BANISTER: Thank you for your 

21 comments, both of you all. Do you all have any 

22 clarifying comments or questions? If you do 

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1 written comments, if you could provide some 

2 information on the Mobile, the example that you 

3 provided, that would be great.

4 MS. ELSNER: Yeah. My pleasure.

5 MS. BANISTER: Thank you. I would now 

6 like to invite Rich Rusk, R-u-s-k -- is he in 

7 here? -- and also Jennifer Pramuk, P-r-a-m-u-k.

8 Thank you both for joining us tonight. 

9 We appreciate you being here. So we're going to 

10 begin with you, Mr. Rusk.

11 MR. RUSK: Yes, ma'am.

12 MS. BANISTER: If you could state your 

13 name and spell it for the court reporter please.

14 MR. RUSK: My name is Rich Rusk. That's 

15 R-i-c-h R-u-s-k. This isn't going to help me. 

16 I'm from Athens, Georgia. I'm representing two 

17 groups, the Oconee River Chapter of Trout 

18 Unlimited, the Climate Change Committee, and the 

19 Georgia Climate Change Coalition, both based in 

20 Athens. 

21 And I must say that I'm carrying this fly 

22 rod up here because I'm speaking on behalf of the 

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1 fly fishermen. Thanks for allowing me to bring 

2 this in here. Fishermen are rather dubious 

3 witnesses, in terms of our own credibility. I 

4 think you all know that fishermen are born liars. 

5 We lie about our fish, and if we're capable of 

6 doing that we're capable of lying about anything, 

7 so automatically we have a credibility issue 

8 built in.

9 Trout Unlimited, our parent organization, 

10 issued a very powerful statement on behalf of the 

11 Clean Power Act. I'm representing 1 of 400 

12 chapters, 1 of 155,000 Trout Unlimited anglers, 

13 and I have to say there is growing grassroots 

14 support for this action, and stronger action, in 

15 general, on climate. I won't make the claim that 

16 we're all there. Our fellows tend to be somewhat 

17 conservative in nature. They're Republicans as 

18 well as Democrats. 

19 Our grassroots fishers are scattered, but 

20 increasingly we're being impacted by climate 

21 change. We see the impacts on our home waters. 

22 We're getting more and more involved with this 

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1 issue. There are 33 million hunters and 

2 fishermen in this country. That's a powerful 

3 constituency, and I'm going to talk a little bit 

4 about us, with the hope that we, too, will really 

5 weigh in in a big way on this issue, further down 

6 the road.

7 Our groups came together in 2009, and 

8 published a group called "Beyond Season's End." 

9 This includes Ducks Unlimited, Trout Unlimited, 

10 Pheasants Forever, 11 sporting organizations, and 

11 it was a powerful statement on behalf of the 

12 growing threat posed by climate change to our 

13 fish and our game populations.

14 I came to this issue thanks, in part, to 

15 my father, Dean Rusk, former Secretary of State 

16 for the Kennedy and Johnson administrations. You 

17 might recognize the kinship by my bald head. My 

18 dad sat me down in 1994, and said, "Rich, global 

19 warming will be the challenge for your 

20 generation. It's a very difficult one. It will 

21 require average citizens to believe the 

22 projections of scientists." He also said that it 

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1 would require an unprecedented level of global 

2 cooperation to make progress. He said, "This is 

3 probably a more difficult issue than our 40-year 

4 standoff with the Soviet Union and the threat of 

5 nuclear war." But he said, "This one is yours," 

6 and I quote, "You better get after it." 

7 He died right after that, and that was 

8 1994. That should have been enough to get me 

9 into it. I did what many Americans have done on 

10 this issue. I kicked the can down the road for 

11 another 15 years. What finally got me into it, 

12 what finally got our fishers into it was that 

13 summer drought of 2006. Fish died in north 

14 Georgia. Stream temperatures in the 

15 Chattahoochee got up to 84 degrees that summer. 

16 Those beautiful, mature trout in the Nacoochee 

17 Bend section of the Chattahoochee started to roll 

18 up dead in that super-heated water. 

19 We lost fingerlings in the state fish 

20 hatcheries that summer, and we heard the stories 

21 of raccoons and otters just had a field day 

22 feasting on these trout. Typical stream flow in 

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1 August for the Chattahoochee was 125 cubic feet 

2 per second. It fell to 19 feet per second. In 

3 essence, the river ran out of water. That got us 

4 into it. They lost 95 percent of their trout 

5 that summer, an estimated -- a lot of this is 

6 anecdotal, but we see the impacts, we hear it, 

7 and we called TU National. 

8 They sent a young man named Scott Lazear 

9 down here to talk about what was going on, and he 

10 spoke for 2 hours about the climate change 

11 impacts on our fish all across the country. 

12 Nobody walked out. Nobody got mad. We just sat 

13 there and took it. We formed our own Climate 

14 Change Committee in the aftermath of that 

15 meeting, and, in 2011, we filled the Ecology 

16 School Auditorium at the University of Georgia 

17 with people. 

18 We were wanting to create a climate 

19 change coalition for the state of Georgia, and it 

20 was fishermen that were called for this action, 

21 and these folks were incredulous. But we had a 

22 good group. We've created that coalition. They 

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1 assigned me to a group with Trout Unlimited 

2 that's doing strategic planning. They claim 

3 we're the most active chapter on this issue --

4 what is that, a 1-minute signal or what?

5 MS. BANISTER: It's basically that your 

6 time is up, but go ahead. Take another minute to 

7 wrap up.

8 MR. RUSK: Okay. I'll wrap it up real 

9 quick. I love Trout Unlimited, one reason being 

10 our fishermen are all over the political 

11 spectrum, but it doesn't matter. We go down the 

12 road together. We go fishing together. We stay 

13 together. It's a wonderful organization, and all 

14 I can say is we're going to stay with this issue 

15 together. The impacts are increasing, all over 

16 the country, and obviously it's becoming 

17 increasingly aware to us that climate change is 

18 something we've got to deal with.

19 I thank you very much for the 

20 opportunity.

21 MS. BANISTER: Thank you. Thank you. 

22 Jennifer, would you state your name as well as 

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1 spell it for the court reporter?

2 MS. PRAMUK: My name is Jennifer Pramuk. 

3 J-e-n-n-i-f-e-r, and the last name is P-r-a-m-u4 k. And I just first of all want to say thanks 

5 for listening to the public's comments on 

6 everything. I'm a recent graduate from Kennesaw 

7 State University. I got my degree in 

8 environmental science and policy, so that's where 

9 I really started learning about these type of 

10 issues and what sparked my interest to be here 

11 today. 

12 But I would first like to start out with 

13 a quote. "Never doubt that a small group of 

14 thoughtful, committed, citizens can change the 

15 world. Indeed, it is the only thing that ever 

16 has," and that's by Margaret Mead. Today I'm 

17 speaking as a thoughtful citizen with hopes to 

18 see changes made in our world, and right now the 

19 planet is experiencing climate change in an 

20 alarming rate. About 95 percent of today's 

21 scientists have conducted studies finding that 

22 the main cause is a drastic increase in the level 

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1 of carbon dioxide pollution in our atmosphere, 

2 and has attributed it to mostly anthropogenic 

3 causes. 

4 As a thoughtful citizen, I believe that 

5 the best thing for our nation would be to reduce 

6 emissions emitted from the largest point source, 

7 pollution, of carbon dioxide pollution, and 

8 that's our energy facilities, and you all know 

9 that, of course. But not only would it be a 

10 great start to reducing worldwide emissions but 

11 it would also help make our nation's air cleaner.

12 Most of the air pollution in my state --

13 I actually live in Woodstock, Georgia right now -

14 - comes from coal-fired power plants, of which we 

15 have the first and third dirtiest in the nation. 

16 A reduction in CO2 would mean a huge change in my 

17 state and my community, because, for me, 

18 personally, I have asthma, and so I can't go 

19 outside and run on certain days when we have bad 

20 air quality. And I know that it's not just me 

21 out there. There are tons of other people who 

22 have experienced the same health effects from bad 

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1 air quality, and I think that if we reduce the 

2 carbon dioxide from energy-producing facilities, 

3 then it would really help.

4 And also, reducing emissions would open 

5 up opportunities for more clean energy, like 

6 maybe solar or wind or whatever we find works for 

7 us, and that would help increase employment. I 

8 know Georgia has very big wind capabilities, so 

9 there's definitely room for growth in the science 

10 and engineering fields, there's new growth, and 

11 also we also have a manufacturing plant, so that 

12 would help. I know Georgia doesn't have any coal 

13 mining, but that's definitely something that 

14 could employ people, also.

15 But as a thoughtful citizen, I would 

16 definitely support the EPA in passing this bill.

17 MS. BANISTER: Thank you for your 

18 comments. Do we have any clarifying comments or 

19 questions? Thank you both. We appreciate your 

20 comments and appreciate you coming out tonight.

21 I would now like to invite Sam Elliott 

22 and Terry Welsher. Thank you both for coming 

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1 tonight. We appreciate you both being here. Mr. 

2 Elliott, would you please start to state your 

3 name and spell your name?

4 MS. ELLIOTT: Good evening, ladies. I am 

5 Samuel W. Elliott. That's Sam E-l-l-i-o-t-t. I 

6 live in Athens. I'm a retired federal employee, 

7 but more about that later. My outdoor interests 

8 are gardening and fishing. In 2010, 2011, and 

9 2012, summer weather was bad for both. So, with 

10 lakes too low to launch my boat, fish dying in 

11 streams and in hatcheries, and no home-grown 

12 tomatoes, it got my attention, and who wouldn't 

13 notice?

14 Athens had a severe drought and water 

15 conservation restrictions. We were forced to be 

16 careful and flush only when necessary, catch 

17 water in buckets when we took showers, and we 

18 were able to keep some plants alive. Our local 

19 Trout Unlimited chapter began to consider the 

20 obvious questions -- where would we fish, and are 

21 trout in our future? North Georgia is the 

22 southern tip of the cold water habitat for trout, 

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1 and the Department of Natural Resources-stocked 

2 streams are really the marginal habitat, even 

3 during good rainfall summers.

4 As the Trout Unlimited chapter considered 

5 these questions, we formed a study committee and 

6 found some answers there in Athens, at the 

7 University of Georgia. We hosted discussions of 

8 climate change and we learned. Agricultural 

9 scientists at the University are working to 

10 develop more heat- and drought-tolerant varieties 

11 of plants, tomatoes, and other crops. 

12 Agricultural scientists are studying 

13 citrus for South Georgia, and recommending fewer 

14 apples for north Georgia. Other research on 

15 climate change includes subjects from migratory 

16 birds to poison ivy. Science has no doubt, and 

17 these scientists have no doubt, about climate 

18 change. They deal with the effects and think of 

19 the future.

20 Climate change is real. They're trying 

21 to provide food and prepare for the future. The 

22 only question about climate change is what can we 

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1 do? To those who say that weather is always 

2 changing and mankind is not the cause, I say, 

3 remember L.A. smog, China today, and baloney.

4 Coal was the fuel of the '50s, the 1850s 

5 through the 1950s, until London learned that they 

6 couldn't live with it. They had to stop heating 

7 with coal. There's no such thing as clean coal. 

8 Clean coal was a term invented by Senator 

9 McConnell's fundraisers. Natural gas is only a 

10 transition fuel for cleaner energy if fracking 

11 and collection is done by the best practices. 

12 Cleaner energy exists. 

13 In addition to the well-known results of 

14 air pollution from burning coal, let's consider 

15 the mess in North Carolina. Although previously 

16 warned and slapped on the wrist for the dangers 

17 posed by their coal ash sludge ponds, Duke Energy 

18 managed to spill 39,000 tons -- tons -- of coal 

19 ash into the Dan River on February 2nd. Duke has 

20 dredged and removed 3,000 tons, and say that the 

21 river is normal. Duke has 31 other coal ash 

22 ponds at 14 sites in North Carolina. Repeating, 

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1 there is no such thing as clean coal, from 

2 mountaintop destruction to use and even after 

3 it's used.

4 China is investing in better energy 

5 sources and technology for the future. The 

6 United States should be leading but we are not. 

7 It's easier and quicker for an authoritative 

8 government like China's to change policy than it 

9 is for a democracy to reach a majority think. We 

10 must recognize the problem and go to work. We 

11 need to conserve water and natural resources. 

12 The ridiculous proposal of a coal-fired 

13 power plant in Sandersville, Georgia, drawing 

14 water from the Oconee River 20-plus miles away is 

15 hopefully history, and an example of one of the 

16 worst ideas for coal and electricity we've heard 

17 lately. Wind, solar, and atomic energy are all 

18 better investments for our future. Reduce 

19 pollution and save life. 

20 To the EPA, collectively and 

21 individually, I say give us your best science. 

22 Ignore howls of the ignorant. As a former 

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1 Internal Revenue employee, I know that you will 

2 be criticized by politicians and on talk shows 

3 for old fogies. That's sad, but do your job. Do 

4 your work. Give us, the United States, your best 

5 science and your best work. Then, when you look 

6 in the mirror to apply your makeup or shave, you 

7 can see integrity and you'll know that you did 

8 your best, and I know you will, and I thank you.

9 MS. BANISTER: Thank you for your 

10 comments. Mr. Welsher, would you please state 

11 your name as well as spell it for the court 

12 reporter?

13 MR. WELSHER: Right. So my name is Terry 

14 Welsher. That's T-e-r-r-y W-e-l-s-h-e-r, and I 

15 would like to thank the EPA for giving all of us 

16 this opportunity to speak. This is the first 

17 time I've spoken at a hearing of this kind at 

18 all, so I'm learning as I watch, and hopefully I 

19 can contribute.

20 We've heard from a lot of the testimony 

21 here there's a lot of anecdotal experiences that 

22 confirm the effects of climate change. I come at 

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1 this as a scientist. I have a Ph.D. in chemical 

2 physics. I am retired after 25 years in Bell 

3 Laboratories, and I know what science is and what 

4 science isn't, and I also tend to be very 

5 skeptical. 

6 So my personal journey on this was to 

7 spend 2-1/2 years on my own, studying the 

8 literature, learning about climatology and 

9 climate measurements and experiments and history, 

10 to reach my own conclusion. I entered it with no 

11 preconceived notion, because that's what a good 

12 scientist is supposed to do. 

13 The final result of all of that is that I 

14 am now personally convinced that the planet is 

15 warming, it's primarily caused by the burning of 

16 fossil fuels, and that the consequences will, in 

17 fact, be devastating for future generations if we 

18 don't take action now. We said we were going to 

19 stop at 350. We said we were going to stop at 

20 400. Five hundred looks like a disaster, and yet 

21 we've done nothing to stop that. 

22 This is why I'm speaking here in support 

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1 of these regulations that are being proposed, 

2 because all other options that we might like to 

3 do instead of it have been blocked by Congress. 

4 Congress has just been unbelievably inactive in 

5 this area, and we know a lot of the reasons for 

6 it, but it's a fact of life, and this is why I'm 

7 delighted that the administration is proposing 

8 these rules and starting this process.

9 I have a lot of conservative friends, 

10 and, like them, I would prefer that ultimately we 

11 deal with this on a market-based solution. 

12 Regulations are kind of a last resort. If we had 

13 market-based solutions, I think we'd all be a lot 

14 happier. The best that's been proposed is a 

15 carbon tax, a revenue-neutral carbon tax placed 

16 on the wellhead or the entry of carbon-equivalent 

17 products into the United States, with all of the 

18 money going back into households, but that takes 

19 legislation. We can't do that now and we can't 

20 wait for the legislation, so that's why I see 

21 this as the best thing that we can do now.

22 So I strongly support the emissions

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1 reductions in the power plants that have been 

2 proposed. In fact, I think we need to make them 

3 stronger. Going from 30 to 35 percent, for 

4 instance, would be a good idea. If we can go 

5 further than that, that would also be a good 

6 idea. The reason for that is that the 30 percent 

7 is only going to do part of what we need to do. 

8 If the power companies can look at this issue 

9 seriously, I'm sure they can do the 35 percent.

10 So I cannot emphasize strongly enough 

11 that there is no doubt that global warming is a 

12 matter of science and not opinion. There is just 

13 so much science to back this up, and it's 

14 frustrating to many of us to see that the vast, 

15 vast, vast majority, 97 percent or more of 

16 scientists, have looked at this issue, they've 

17 studied it well, they've been skeptical about 

18 each other's work, peer-reviewed it, checked it, 

19 reproduced it, and this should carry the day. 

20 Unfortunately, it is not, and as a scientist who 

21 has been publishing papers in refereed journals 

22 for close 40 years, and I know the work that goes 

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1 into it, this has to be tremendously frustrating 

2 to the scientists who have done all this work.

3 So, really, the work on this issue should 

4 be nonpartisan. It should be dealt with as a 

5 risk for all of us, not something that might 

6 benefit or harm a few people. The rules and 

7 requirements that emerge from this process should 

8 be based on scientific knowledge, not political 

9 considerations or in calls to maintain an 

10 arbitrary economic status quo. 

11 It is true there will be changes and some 

12 hardships. Some sources of power will have to be 

13 phased out. This is a fact of life, as we move 

14 to a green economy, based on renewable, low15 emission energy sources. I do hope that the 

16 states will be given some latitude to innovate in 

17 the rules that are written, and that we not fall 

18 into the trap that was mentioned by some of the 

19 earlier speakers, of the government coming down 

20 too hard. There is room for innovation. There 

21 could even be local or statewide revenue in 

22 neutral carbon taxes implemented, and I hope the 

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1 regulations will allow for that.

2 So, in conclusion, the risk of climate 

3 change is one that we actually do not need to 

4 take. It's a risk we can avoid. We know what 

5 the solution is. We just need to do it. 

6 Drastically reduce the dumping of CO2 and other 

7 greenhouse gases into the atmosphere and do it 

8 now, or as soon as possible. The EPA now is the 

9 warrior on the front lines of this battle, and 

10 what I'm seeing is a groundswell of awareness 

11 happening in the country, and more and more 

12 people are beginning to see the light, and I 

13 support your efforts to keep the Earth in balance 

14 for future generations.

15 And I leave you with this statistic that 

16 I heard recently, that sums it up for me, and 

17 that is all 12 world's monthly heat records have 

18 been set since 1997, and half of them in this 

19 decade. All of the cold records happened all 

20 before 1917. Nothing could be clearer. It used 

21 to be colder; it's getting hotter.

22 Thank you.

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1 MS. BANISTER: Thank you both. Do you 

2 all have any clarifying comments or questions? 

3 Thank you so much for coming out tonight.

4 So we're going to take not even a 5-

5 minute break. We're just going to take a stretch 

6 break, and we're going to change out the chairs. 

7 Fred Thompson is going to come in and share the 

8 remainder of the hearing. And so we'll just take 

9 a 1-minute. You can stand up and stretch. And I 

10 would invite Bonni DeMarco -- is Bonni in? Okay -

11 - to come on up, and Dr. Yomi Noibi. Is she in? 

12 N-o-i-b-i. Oh, I'm sorry. Thank you.

13 Okay. A little change in plans. We have 

14 additional people that have signed up to speak 

15 this evening, and we want to provide everyone an 

16 opportunity to speak. If you've come out tonight 

17 to speak, we're going to stay here and make sure 

18 that we have and provide the forum for you to 

19 speak. So we're going to open up the other room, 

20 so Fred is going to go over and start chairing a 

21 parallel hearing in Room B. But we're going to 

22 continue. If you have A on your card, then you 

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1 will be called here, in the room that you're in. 

2 So we will have two parallel hearings going on 

3 for the remainder of the evening, to allow 

4 everyone an opportunity to speak.

5 So with that, Ms. DeMarco, if you would 

6 please state your name and spell it for the court 

7 reporter?

8 MS. DEMARCO: Hello. My name is Bonni 

9 DeMarco, B-o-n-n-i D-e-M-a-r-c-o. I am a retail 

10 pharmacist with over 30 years' experience. I 

11 have seen a lot of changes in my profession. 

12 When I started pharmacy, we did not even use 

13 computers. Hard to believe that long, long ago 

14 they were not mainstream. 

15 Another major change that I have seen is 

16 the increased use of asthma, COPD, and heat17 related illnesses. The impact of carbon 

18 pollution isn't a political issue. It's a fact. 

19 When medical science tells us, as it does today, 

20 that the health of our communities is being 

21 impacted by something we have the power to 

22 change, it would be irresponsible to stay silent. 

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1 As a medical professional, it would be negligent 

2 to remain silent.

3 Pollution from coal-fired power plants 

4 contaminates our air and water, making people 

5 sick. There are currently no limits on the 

6 amount of carbon pollution these plants can 

7 release, yet carbon pollution from power plants 

8 is among the leading cause of climate change, 

9 which the American Medical Association associates 

10 with the increased risk of asthma, respiratory 

11 diseases, vector-borne diseases, and heat-related 

12 ailments.

13 I have been sitting here listening to the 

14 opposition, and I keep hearing that this bill 

15 will cost more money and more unemployment. I 

16 question this. I became involved with the Sierra 

17 Club after I learned of the deadly things we are 

18 thoughtlessly adding into our environment. I was 

19 involved in a lunch-and-learn series, where the 

20 Sierra Club brought some public legislators to 

21 Gainesville, Georgia, to tour and learn about 

22 wind energy. I did not even realize we have four 

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1 factories in Gainesville, Georgia, making 

2 equipment for wind energy. At this point, we did 

3 not even have any wind energy being used in 

4 Georgia. 

5 We toured the plant and had 

6 representatives talk. One man told his very 

7 moving, personal story of working in a coal 

8 plant, being laid off, and now working at the 

9 wind plant. That was in April. In May, Georgia 

10 Energy regulators unanimously approved Georgia 

11 Power Company's first entrance into wind energy. 

12 The State Public Service Commission signed off to 

13 buy 250 megawatts of power from wind farms in 

14 Oklahoma. That rate is less expensive than other 

15 forms of electric energy already on the grid, 

16 according to the article from the Atlanta 

17 Business Chronicle, dated May 20th. 

18 This story illustrates to me there are 

19 jobs in the clean energy market. Here in 

20 Georgia, we have ten -- that's ten -- ten 

21 factories making wind equipment. We now import a 

22 small amount of cheap wind energy from Oklahoma. 

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1 What if we had wind turbines in Georgia? I have 

2 been told we have great potential offshore, 

3 because of the Georgia Bayou. 

4 Unfortunately, we have some politicians 

5 that do not seem to consider the best interest of 

6 their constituents in power. Wind factories in 

7 Georgia? Let's have wind energy in Georgia. 

8 This would increase jobs, this would improve the 

9 environment, and I believe, with good old 

10 American ingenuity, would ultimately not cost us 

11 any more. It seems like a no-brainer to me, and 

12 that is not even talking about solar. If Germany 

13 can do it, we can do it. 

14 Change is not easy and resistance is 

15 always met. In an ideal world, we would not need 

16 governing bodies to make these rules. We would 

17 take care of each other and the Earth, but 

18 history shows this not to be true.

19 With the passage of this rule, I believe 

20 this will be the beginning of a new chapter in 

21 history. This will mark the beginning of the 

22 clean and sustainable air. I implore you to keep 

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1 this rule and safeguard the people you are 

2 responsible for, and consider making this rule 

3 even stronger -- 35 percent, at least.

4 Thank you so much for your time.

5 MS. BANISTER: Thank you for your 

6 comments. We appreciate them. Dr. Yomi? Is 

7 that right?

8 DR. NOIBI: Thank you. Yes. My name is 

9 Yomi Noibi, spelled Y-o-m-i, last name N as in 

10 Nancy-o-i-b-i.

11 MS. BANISTER: Thank you.

12 DR. NOIBI: I want to start by thanking 

13 EPA for being involved with this proposed rule. 

14 I represent Environmental Community Action. This 

15 is a statewide organization providing community 

16 organizing assistance to communities, especially 

17 in environmental health. We promote health and 

18 safety through organizing and leadership 

19 development.

20 I am so happy that, according to EPA, the 

21 proposed Clean Power Plan will maintain an 

22 affordable, reliable energy system while cutting 

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1 pollution and protecting our health and the 

2 environment. I am in total support of this 

3 proposed rule -- I said total. However, in the 

4 how of doing it, there are some concerns that I 

5 would like EPA to consider.

6 (1) The proposed rule must consider the 

7 principles of environmental justice and climate 

8 justice, and then invoke the precautionary 

9 principle when needed, because they tell us to 

10 prove it. Before we've got to prove it, people 

11 are dying. There are health potential impacts 

12 from exposure to toxic chemicals from all these 

13 power plants.

14 (2) There is a need for the EPA to 

15 conduct a total environmental justice analysis of 

16 this proposed rule and make it a required part of 

17 the state implementation plan.

18 (3) This proposed plan is slanted 

19 towards caps and trade as being the most viable 

20 option to carbon emission. Other options should 

21 be presented, such as carbon pricing. If cap and 

22 trade is given as an option, there must be 

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1 controls in the grid and into the process to make 

2 sure that a reduction is actually happening in 

3 the communities being impacted.

4 (4) Energy solutions must benefit the 

5 community. The choice of sort of energy impacts 

6 the ecology level of a given community. 

7 Therefore, as this proposed rule is being put 

8 together, opportunities for clean energy, jobs, 

9 education, and affordable alternative energy 

10 solutions must be available for residents living 

11 near the impacted communities.

12 The state's implementation plan process 

13 must include environmental justice leaders and 

14 advocates at the table. ECO-action would like to 

15 see that the proposed rule puts into it outreach, 

16 and that it be a significant part of the SIP 

17 process.

18 I noticed that nuclear power has been 

19 brought into this proposed rule. This is 

20 problematic to me and to ECO-Action. The rule 

21 states that EPA recognizes the worst issue. 

22 However, the rule avoids the retirements of some 

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1 of the U.S. nuclear capacity. On native lands, 

2 the inventory of abandoned mines is unknown and 

3 [?] is a known cost in health, land, and 

4 sustainability is substantial.

5 EPA, I want to again thank you for being 

6 bold, as you consider this proposed rule. The 

7 position is very strong. We have the yellow 

8 light, and the yellow light is saying take 

9 precaution. You are taking precaution by 

10 proposing this rule, and, in conclusion, I, with 

11 ECO-Action, we support this rule and for you to 

12 consider ways in which you can implement this 

13 rule in the interest of environmental justice 

14 community to lift people up and to invest in 

15 renewable source of energy, so that, at the end, 

16 we will have a sustainable source of energy that 

17 will lift our economy and will be in the green 

18 economy that we all want to be.

19 Thank you for listening.

20 MS. BANISTER: Thank you. I have one 

21 clarifying question. Could you just speak a 

22 little bit more on what you said with regard to 

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1 nuclear?

2 DR. NOIBI: Well, nuclear, in my opinion, 

3 is not clean energy, but in the proposed rule, 

4 they acknowledge the worst issue with nuclear, 

5 and according to the history of nuclear, there 

6 are potential health hazards that, as an

7 environmental health scientist, should be 

8 considered, so that we take precaution. We have 

9 the evidence that this may cause harm, and the 

10 precautionary principle says when you have 

11 evidence, you take precautionary measures, even 

12 if you can't prove it.

13 MS. BANISTER: Right. Okay. Thank you. 

14 I appreciate that. Thank you both for your 

15 comments and thank you for coming out tonight.

16 I would like to now invite Susan Berryman 

17 Rodriguez and Rodney Russell. Susan, if you 

18 could pronounce your name and also spell it for 

19 the court reporter please.

20 MS. BERRYMAN RODRIGUEZ: Good evening. 

21 My name is Susan Berryman Rodriguez, and that's 

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1 g-u-e-z. It's a long name.

2 Well, good evening. I know it's been a 

3 long couple of days. It's almost over, so hang 

4 in there. On behalf of Mothers & Others For 

5 Clean Air, a program of the American Lung 

6 Association, I really appreciate the opportunity 

7 to share my comments in support of EPA's clean 

8 air plan, which, of course, will reduce the 

9 health effects and the risks of climate change. 

10 Climate change is probably one of the most 

11 challenging public health issues of our day.

12 The health impacts of climate change are 

13 often overlooked. Children represent a 

14 particularly vulnerable group who are likely to 

15 suffer disproportionately from the adverse health 

16 effects of climate change. According to the 

17 American Academy of Pediatrics, children are 

18 especially vulnerable because their lungs are 

19 developing and growing, they breath in more air 

20 than adults do, and they often, well, we hope, 

21 spend more time outdoors, engaging in physical 

22 activity.

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1 Coal-fired power plants, the largest 

2 single source of carbon emissions in the nation, 

3 are leading to warming temperatures, which can 

4 lead to ozone formation, a well-known trigger for 

5 asthma attacks and worsening air pollution. 

6 Children who regularly breathe in ozone pollution 

7 may face reduced lung function in adulthood, and 

8 a reduction in lung function increases the risk 

9 of respiratory disease later on in life. And, of 

10 course, we know, because we've heard it over and 

11 over again, that asthma is one of the leading 

12 chronic illnesses among children and adolescents 

13 in the U.S., and, of course, it's one of the 

14 leading causes of school absenteeism.

15 We need to have a strong Clean Power Plan 

16 that reduces carbon emissions and protects the 

17 health of millions of Americans, including our 

18 children. In fact, reducing carbon pollution 

19 leads to co-benefits, because it reduces other 

20 co-pollutants -- air pollution that causes heart 

21 attacks, asthma attacks, premature death, cancer, 

22 birth defects, all of those things. 

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1 These proposed guidelines will prevent 

2 close to 4,000 premature deaths and 100,000 

3 asthma attacks in children in 2020, and up to 

4 6,600 premature deaths and 150,000 asthma attacks 

5 in children in 2030. As a reminder, it is a 

6 cold, hard truth that children can and do die 

7 from asthma attacks. As Lisa Rayner, one of the 

8 women who testified yesterday, she nearly lost 

9 her daughter because of an asthma attack.

10 This common-sense plan will not only 

11 protect public health but it will also strengthen 

12 our economy, and the proof is in the over 40 

13 years of history of the Clean Air Act. Between 

14 1970 and 2011, aggregate emissions of common air 

15 pollutants dropped by 68 percent while the gross 

16 domestic product increased by 212 percent. 

17 So Mothers & Others For Clean Air urges 

18 EPA to set the final plan within a year, that 

19 provides for the strongest cuts to carbon 

20 emissions, because anything less short-changes 

21 not only our children but our health and our 

22 future.

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1 Thank you.

2 MS. BANISTER: Thank you. Mr. Russell?

3 MR RUSSELL: Thank you. Thank you for 

4 holding these public hearings this evening, and I 

5 know you're really tired, and we appreciate the 

6 opportunity to speak. My name is Rodney J. 

7 Russell and I am the President for the Atlanta 

8 Chapter of the American Association of Blacks in 

9 Energy.

10 MS. BANISTER: Could you spell your name, 

11 too, for the court reporter?

12 MR. RUSSELL: Oh, okay. R-o-d-n-e-y J. 

13 R-u-s-s-e-l-l.

14 MS. BANISTER: Thank you.

15 MR. RUSSELL: Today I'm representing our 

16 chapter. AABE is a national association of 

17 energy professionals founded and dedicated to 

18 ensure that African Americans and other 

19 minorities have a voice in the development of 

20 energy policy and related environmental issues. 

21 While we are still in the process of analyzing 

22 the rule and the many technical support 

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1 documents, AABE has some significant concerns 

2 about EPA's proposed Clean Power Plan.

3 We recognize that there is no simple 

4 solution for addressing the climate change issues 

5 with regard to greenhouse gas emissions. 

6 However, we believe any approach must be 

7 balanced, fair, and take into consideration 

8 impacts to communities, economic development, 

9 health, jobs, and the price of electricity. 

10 This proposed rule is very likely to 

11 significantly impact electrical power costs 

12 across the country. It will do so, in part, by 

13 changing the way our nation's electric generation 

14 resources are utilized to meet demand. 

15 Currently, generation units are dispatched 

16 primarily on economics to ensure that the most 

17 cost-effective generation units are dispatched 

18 first. This rule appears to largely eliminate an 

19 economic dispatch in favor of environmental 

20 dispatch, without regard to cost.

21 For example, to develop the state22 specific goals, EPA assumes that utilities will 

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1 shift generation from coal units to natural gas 

2 units, and EPA assumes natural gas units across 

3 the country will run at a 70 percent capacity 

4 factor or more. EPA must understand that if 

5 these natural gas units were most cost-effective, 

6 they would already be running at higher levels.

7 EPA also assumes generation will be 

8 shifted to renewable energy -- wind, solar, and 

9 possibly biomass. While AABE supports renewable 

10 energy, it must be cost-effective. Because it 

11 eliminates the focus on cost of energy resources, 

12 EPA's proposed carbon plan will not only increase 

13 electricity prices but also the price of natural 

14 gas. 

15 Natural gas is also used by industry and 

16 transportation and to heat our homes. Basic 

17 principles of supply and demand tell us that the 

18 increased demand for natural gas in the electric 

19 sector will increase gas prices. The increase in 

20 the cost of electricity and natural gas will 

21 increase the cost of goods and services across 

22 the country, and will drive more industry and 

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1 manufacturing jobs overseas.

2 The bottom line -- higher electricity 

3 prices, higher heating bills, more expensive 

4 goods and services, and fewer jobs. All of these 

5 have a disproportionate impact on those who are 

6 least able to manage those impacts. That is our 

7 small business owners and families and 

8 individuals who are on a fixed income or low 

9 income. We need to make progress on our climate 

10 change goals and commitments. We must find 

11 solutions that minimize the risk of cost increase 

12 and do not heap the cost on those least able to 

13 bear them.

14 We support a holistic approach to meeting 

15 the rising demand of electricity. In 2012, 

16 electricity accounted for 32 percent of the total 

17 greenhouse gas emissions by economic sector, 

18 according to EPA. Industry and transportation 

19 combined accounted for 48 percent of the total 

20 greenhouse gas emissions by the economic sector. 

21 Again, this is according to EPA. By focusing on 

22 electricity only, the rule ignores other 

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1 contributors to GHG emissions.

2 While it's not a silver bullet, broad 

3 deployment of energy efficiency measures will be 

4 important to reduce the impact of rising utility 

5 bills. AABE strongly supports energy efficiency 

6 and serves as a resource on this issue for energy 

7 consumers, especially in the underserved 

8 communities. We can't do it alone. Energy 

9 efficiency measures and education must be 

10 available to small businesses and low- and fixed11 income families and individuals, because they are 

12 the ones that will benefit the most from energy 

13 savings.

14 We recognize there is no simple solution 

15 for reducing greenhouse gas emissions. We 

16 believe the best strategy will strike a balance 

17 between the cost-effective emissions reduction 

18 and economic growth. This proposal right now, as 

19 it stands, does not strike that balance.

20 Thank you for the opportunity to provide 

21 these comments.

22 MS. BANISTER: Thank you. Do you have 

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1 any clarifying comments or questions? Thank you 

2 both for coming out tonight. We appreciate your 

3 comments.

4 Next I would invite Brandon Sutton and 

5 Joy Kramer. Thank you both for coming out 

6 tonight. We appreciate you both being here. 

7 Brandon, if you would spell your name for the 

8 court reporter, and we can start.

9 MR. SUTTON: Great. Thank you. My name 

10 is Brandon Sutton. That's B-r-a-n-d-o-n S-u-t-t11 o-n. I want to thank you ladies for the 

12 opportunity to come and speak tonight, and thank 

13 you for your time. I want to show appreciation 

14 for the wonderful work the EPA is doing on this 

15 issue. It's obviously very important to future 

16 generations of Americans, so thank you for the 

17 work that you're doing here.

18 I'm a native Georgian and have seen with 

19 my own eyes the changes in climate, just in my 

20 lifetime. I'm concerned about the future of the 

21 climate and the damage we continue to inflict on 

22 the environment that supports all of life on 

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1 Earth.

2 I'm also concerned about the economic 

3 impacts of failing to take steps to drastically 

4 reduce greenhouse gas emissions quickly enough. 

5 We can no longer afford to ignore the impacts of 

6 decades of carbon dioxide accumulation in the 

7 atmosphere, and fixing the problem will continue 

8 to get more expensive the longer we wait to 

9 change course.

10 Reducing carbon emissions is a smart, 

11 sensible path forward for our nation and it comes 

12 with a host of positive side effects, such as 

13 cleaner air and water, along with decreases in 

14 respiratory illnesses and premature deaths. 

15 Those who object to regulating emissions often 

16 point to the belief that acting to regulate these 

17 emissions will be detrimental to the U.S. economy 

18 and jobs. 

19 Well, it turns out that there is a policy 

20 option that reduces these emissions and benefits 

21 the U.S. Economy. It's called carbon fee and 

22 dividend, and it's a policy that I hope the EPA 

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1 will include as a mechanism for state compliance 

2 in its final rules in 2015.

3 A recent nonpartisan study, conducted by 

4 REMI, concluded that putting a fee on carbon and 

5 returning all of the money to the public would 

6 slash carbon emissions while creating jobs and 

7 increasing GDP in the process. The report shows 

8 that fixing the market distortion that has 

9 allowed fossil-based energy to be artificially 

10 cheap, due to externalized and socialized costs, 

11 will drive innovation, create 2.8 million jobs, 

12 while reducing emissions over 50 percent in a 20-

13 year time span.

14 The gentlemen that were here from 

15 Alabama, I wish they were here to hear about this 

16 policy, and the gentleman that just spoke might 

17 actually be interested in it, if he's still in 

18 the room. This is a market-based solution. This 

19 is a solution that has broad conservative 

20 support, which is a rare thing in this 

21 conversation.

22 I'm confident that if the EPA reads the 

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1 full REMI report, they will see why the carbon 

2 fee and dividend approach is a sensible policy 

3 solution that states can employ to be in 

4 compliance with final EPA rules to come. In that 

5 case, I would ask that the EPA specifically 

6 include carbon fee and dividend as a compliance 

7 mechanism and that details on carbon pricing 

8 levels, escalation schedules, and administrative 

9 guidance on the implementation of the policy be 

10 included in the final rules that would ensure 

11 states have a road map for using this policy for 

12 compliance.

13 Thank you again for the work you are 

14 doing here. I appreciate the opportunity to 

15 share this information on this policy, that will 

16 allow states to comply with the proposed 

17 emissions reductions.

18 MS. BANISTER: Thank you, and if you 

19 could supply us with your written testimony, so 

20 that we have that information.

21 MR. SUTTON: Yes. I have the link here.

22 MS. BANISTER: Okay. Awesome. Thank you 

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1 so much. Yes. Joy, would you state your name 

2 and spell it for the court reporter?

3 MS. KRAMER: Yes. My name is Joy Kramer, 

4 J-o-y K-r-a-m-e-r. Thank you for letting my 

5 voice be heard here today, of course. I am a 

6 small business entrepreneur, producing 

7 conferences and events on alternative energy. 

8 For the last 3 years, the Alternative Fuel 

9 Vehicle Roadshow has educated thousands of 

10 elected officials and transportation fleet 

11 managers on the costs and benefits associated 

12 with undertaking a transition from gasoline and 

13 diesel to clean and renewable fuels. 

14 In over 43 cities across the Southeast, 

15 and corporate and municipal leaders have come 

16 together to learn how to evaluate these options 

17 that are available today. They are doing it 

18 because being efficient is the right decision. 

19 It is the fiscally responsible thing to do. They 

20 are doing it because extremely profitable 

21 companies, like UPS, FedEx, AT&T, and Coca-Cola 

22 have led the way in renewable transitions, not 

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1 because of the environment, although $1 invested 

2 for a $7 return in health benefits is not a bad 

3 deal. Not because they were forced with a 

4 mandate but because they set reasonable goals and 

5 planned for the future. 

6 Goals. That's what we're talking about 

7 here. Reasonable goals. Long-rang planning that 

8 is required in every business in the United 

9 States of America to stay competitive. But we 

10 are not competitive. We are combative. The 

11 utilities say, "Why should we change when China 

12 is building more coal plants?" Are we really 

13 going to hold China up as the shining example 

14 that we want to follow?

15 If not the EPA here, then who will lead 

16 us forward? A monopoly utility has no 

17 competition and no competition means no 

18 innovation. Look at the wires overhead when you 

19 drive home after this marathon hearing session. 

20 You will see the same ugly, energy-leaking wires 

21 strung across every neighborhood since the '40s. 

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1 payers bear the cost of perpetually clipping 

2 trees in emergency response to power lines down, 

3 in case of extreme weather and ice. Developing 

4 businesses like solar energy companies are shut 

5 out because Georgia's territorial act is 

6 legislating from 1973. A protected monopoly has 

7 no worries until goals get in the way.

8 I salute the Georgia Public Service 

9 Commission for taking a step in the right 

10 direction with the deployment of utility scale 

11 renewable energy, last year, and I trust that as 

12 elected officials, they will provide responsible 

13 stewardship towards both the utility and the rate 

14 payer as this rule goes into place.

15 As we look at our own landscape, we see 

16 our military with energy-efficient goals and our 

17 businesses and our own homes. It is time for our 

18 state utilities to do the same.

19 Thank you for your time.

20 MS. BANISTER: Thank you so much for your 

21 comments, and thank you both for coming out 

22 tonight.

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1 MS. MILLER: I have question for Brandon 

2 on the REMI study. What does REMI stand for 

3 again?

4 MR. SUTTON: It's Regional Economic 

5 Models, Inc.

6 MS. MILLER: So that's the model, right? 

7 But who commissioned the study.

8 MR. SUTTON: Citizens Climate Lobby 

9 commissioned the study. It's a volunteer 

10 organization.

11 MS. MILLER: Okay. That's what I was 

12 wondering. Okay. Thanks.

13 MR. SUTTON: You're welcome.

14 MS. BANISTER: Thank you both for coming, 

15 and your comments. Now I would like to invite Ed 

16 Paradis and Becky Pettis to come up.

17 Thank you both for coming out tonight to 

18 share your comments. We appreciate it. Ed, we 

19 will begin with you. If you would state your 

20 name and spell it for the court reporter, we'll

21 begin.

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1 r-d, Paradis, P-a-r-a-d-i-s. We're getting down 

2 to the wire here, ladies. It won't be much 

3 longer, so I won't say I appreciate it because I 

4 know everybody else has said that.

5 MS. BANISTER: Oh, you're more than 

6 welcome.

7 MR. PARADIS: But I'll start off with 

8 something. I know that none of y'all are old 

9 enough to have grandchildren yet. I do have 

10 grandchildren. I've got three grandchildren, and 

11 they are the sweetest children in the world to 

12 me. They would like to have a life where they 

13 don't have to worry about going outside and 

14 dealing with the problems with the air and things 

15 of that nature. I'll just start with that.

16 One of my children had a problem with 

17 asthma as a child, and it was somewhat 

18 frustrating at times, when I would get emergency 

19 calls at work, I would have to stop working 

20 wherever I was and I would have to go to the 

21 school to deal with my child's asthma episode, or 

22 if we were on vacation somewhere, he would get an 

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1 asthma attack and we would have to deal with 

2 that. Any common sense will tell you that if 

3 you're in a situation where you're having 

4 production of chemical substances, particulate 

5 matter that contributes to an asthma or a 

6 breathing difficulty situation that you'd need to 

7 do whatever you can to try and control that.

8 Aside from that, it's been discussed 

9 largely about some of the alternatives, and I'm a 

10 very big proponent of photovoltaic systems. I'm 

11 a great proponent of fan or the wind power. 

12 Certainly, we have a number of resources and a 

13 number of opportunities in Georgia, which the 

14 incumbent power company seems to define some way 

15 to try and block that every opportunity they get. 

16 They don't want anybody to compete with them.

17 With that, also, Georgia has some of the 

18 most polluting power plants in the country. One, 

19 Plant Scherer, I believe, is right at the top of 

20 the list for being one of the most polluting. 

21 I've only been here for a little while, 

22 but I'll also mention that in addition to the 

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1 issues with the particulate matter, most of 

2 y'all, once again, maybe you're a little too 

3 young to remember all the discussion earlier, 

4 years ago, in the '70s, about acid rain and such, 

5 with the burning of sulfur-bearing coal. That has 

6 to go somewhere. The sulfur would mix with the 

7 moisture in the air and, once again, you'd end up 

8 with areas of forest that were decimated. You'd 

9 end up with bodies of water, lakes, that 

10 basically became sterile because nothing could 

11 live in water that had a pH of 4. So you would 

12 end up with that.

13 There's also another aspect of this that 

14 I understand would be a benefit of reducing the 

15 carbon emissions, particularly if it's involved 

16 in phasing out the use of coal, and that would be 

17 the other, I guess, physical pollution, the 

18 byproduct of these power plants. Every one of 

19 these plants has a waste product, coal ash. It's 

20 also referred to as fly ash. The coal ash is 

21 stored in these containment ponds, and just in 

22 the Southeast, there are well in excess of 100 of 

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1 these containment ponds. 

2 Just earlier this year they had an issue 

3 with a containment pond in North Carolina that 

4 broke. It dumped somewhere in the neighborhood 

5 of -- well, I didn't make that note -- it was an 

6 excessive amount of coal ash in to the Dan River 

7 in North Carolina, and it ruined a municipality's 

8 drinking water, and it produced one of the 

9 largest fish kills in history. 

10 The coal ash contains lead. It contains 

11 beryllium. It contains cadmium. It contains 

12 mercury. These are not the things that you would 

13 see us eating on a regular basis or consuming in 

14 water, but as long as these ponds are there, 

15 we're going to end up with that.

16 Just to wrap this up, when you've reduced 

17 the amount of coal that's being burned, then you 

18 can also reduce the amount of hazardous waste 

19 that's produce, that you'll still have to find 

20 something to do with that.

21 Thank you.

22 MS. BANISTER: Thank you for your 

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1 comments. Becky?

2 MS. PETTIS: My name is Becky, B-e-c-k-y, 

3 West Pettis, P-e-t-t-i-s. I am here as a 

4 layperson. I am not educated in the carbon 

5 areas. I am here to let you know what it's like 

6 to suffer from asthma. I actually got out of the 

7 bed to come here. 

8 I'm adult-onset of asthma, and have been 

9 very sick as of late. I am not a smoker. I've 

10 never been a smoker. My husband is not a smoker. 

11 When I was growing up, my family were not 

12 smokers. I do not like to be around any kind of 

13 smoke or other kind of pollutants at all.

14 I am a singer. I'm very saddened to say 

15 that my singing days may very well be cut short 

16 because of my asthmatic suffering at this time. 

17 I started singing when I was 4 years old. My 

18 last singing engagement was just a couple of 

19 months ago, prior to my getting so sick.

20 You can go from a cold to a viral 

21 infection to upper respiratory infection to 

22 bronchitis to pneumonia to bronchial asthma to 

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1 COPD and then being totally dependent on oxygen. 

2 If you've ever heard the expression, "You've had 

3 the wind knocked out of you," that's what it 

4 feels like for your chest to hurt all the time. 

5 If you try to take a deep breath it's very 

6 painful. The constriction of your airways keeps 

7 you from being able to breathe like a normal 

8 person.

9 I sat here and listened to the lady, Ms. 

10 Rodriguez, talk about the children. I'm so sad 

11 for them because I know how I feel, and they're 

12 totally innocent to all of this, and I'm 61 years 

13 old. I hope that they're going to be able to 

14 live a healthy life and not have to suffer like 

15 I'm suffering now.

16 My days have totally changed and consist 

17 of having to have with me, at all times, Kleenex, 

18 prednisone, which is a steroid that I cannot do 

19 without. I have to have other allergy 

20 medications, Mucinex. I'm all the time having to 

21 have throat lozenges. Now I'm on a very heavy 

22 medication called Symbicort, which I'm sure 

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1 you've all seen commercials about. This is a 

2 very invasive inhaler that's used by people who 

3 have several bronchial asthma and COPD. 

4 But with that, there are many side 

5 effects. You can get something called thrush, 

6 which is an inflammation in your mouth that also 

7 goes into your lungs. Then I have to take pills 

8 for the side effects of that. Then I have to 

9 also take injections of steroids from time to 

10 time. 

11 Then there's a nebulizer machine with 

12 albuterol. But the problem with those is there 

13 are side effects, and I have to take another 

14 medication because now I've developed GERD, which 

15 is gastric indigestion reflux disease, better 

16 known as heartburn. Then I have my emergency 

17 inhaler that I use any time from two to six times 

18 a day. 

19 This has totally changed my life and my 

20 family. I cannot lay flat to sleep. I have to 

21 be inclined or sit up to sleep, because I gag.

22 Thank you for listening to me tonight.

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1 MS. BANISTER: Thank you so much for 

2 coming out to share your story with us tonight. 

3 Thank you. Thank you both for coming out. 

4 I would like to invite now Lauren Smith 

5 and Dr. Jalal, J-a-l-a-l Zuberi, Z-u-b-e-r-i. I 

6 will let you pronounce it. Okay, Lauren, if you 

7 would state your name and also spell it for the 

8 court reporter.

9 MS. SMITH: Lauren M. Smith. L-a-u-r-e-n 

10 M. S-m-i-t-h.

11 MS. BANISTER: Okay. You can begin.

12 MS. SMITH: Hello. My name is Lauren 

13 Smith and I am a rising senior at DeKalb School 

14 of the Arts, and I am representing the Alliance 

15 for Climate Education's Youth Leadership Network 

16 of Atlanta.

17 CO2 levels are having devastating effects 

18 on our Planet Earth. Recently, the Environmental 

19 Protection Agency proposed a plan to reduce 

20 carbon pollution from power plants. The EPA's 

21 proposed Clean Power Plan strengthens existing 

22 state and local plans and provides a workable 

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1 framework to cut pollution levels. 

2 Earlier in 2014, CO2 emissions crossed 

3 400 parts per million for the first time our 

4 history. Power plants are the largest 

5 contributor of carbon dioxide emissions in the 

6 U.S., making up one-third of all domestic 

7 greenhouse gas emissions. Wow. Just taking a 

8 second to let those facts sink in should alarm 

9 you.

10 Now, let me paint a picture of what life 

11 will be like if we continue down the path we are 

12 currently on. Imagine waking up and making a cup 

13 of coffee, then enjoying it on your outdoor 

14 patio, except you can't anymore because the 

15 temperatures are too extreme. Imagine not being 

16 able to enjoy any seafood because of ocean 

17 acidification's devastating effects. Imagine 

18 significantly higher crop and meat prices and a 

19 dramatic drop in production.

20 This is not science fiction. These are 

21 real-life, devastating effects that future 

22 generations will have to endure if we fail to do 

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1 our part and support a comprehensive Clean Power 

2 Plan, as proposed by the EPA. You wouldn't want 

3 future generations to live a life like the one I 

4 just described. They should be able to 

5 experience a lifestyle similar to our own growing 

6 up, where they don't have to suffer the 

7 devastating consequences of CO2 pollution.

8 Besides the clear moral obligation we 

9 have to protect the climate, there is also an 

10 economic case to be made. In 2012 alone, crop 

11 losses, flood damages, wildfires, and other 

12 climate-related disasters cost our country more 

13 than $140 billion. American taxpayers picked up 

14 the bulk of the costs, nearly $100 billion, to 

15 the tune of $1,100 per taxpayer. In 2004, 

16 Atlanta suffered $41 million in damages from 

17 Hurricane Frances, primarily from flooding due to 

18 inadequate storm sewer systems.

19 And then there are the debilitating 

20 public health effects of carbon pollution. 

21 Carbon pollution that drives climate change is 

22 responsible for increased air pollution that 

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1 cause thousands of deaths each yet, yet it 

2 remains unchecked. That must change.

3 According to the American Lung 

4 Association, more than 35,000 premature deaths 

5 could be prevented by strong pollution standards. 

6 Millions of children live in areas that received 

7 an F rating for at least one air quality measure. 

8 Young people and other vulnerable populations are 

9 at a higher risk of the health effects linked to 

10 climate change.

11 Atlanta and other Southeastern cities 

12 have already had increases in the number of days 

13 with temperatures exceeding 95 degrees, during 

14 which the average number of deaths is above 

15 average. Power plants, many of which are dirty, 

16 coal-fired, and decades old, have never before 

17 been subject to environmental safeguards designed 

18 to protect health and cut greenhouse gas 

19 pollution. 

20 And for the EPA to be effective in ways 

21 that allow our nation's farmers and businesses 

22 the best opportunity to pursue success, states 

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1 must partner with the EPA to design how the 

2 safeguards will be implemented under the Clean 

3 Air Act. The EPA has taken the right step with 

4 its Clean Power Plan, that will cut dangerous 

5 carbon pollution by 30 percent by the year 2030. 

6 I'm here to urge the EPA to issue an 

7 ambitious, final carbon pollution standard for 

8 existing power plants, to address the main cause 

9 of climate change, and to protect our health from 

10 its devastating impacts.

11 Thank you.

12 MS. BANISTER: Thank you. Yes, would you 

13 pronounce your name and spell it?

14 MR. ZUBERI: Hello, yes. My name is 

15 Jalal Zuberi. First name J-a-l-a-l, last name 

16 Zuberi with a Z as in zucchini-u-b-e-r-i.

17 MS. BANISTER: Thank you so much.

18 DR. ZUBERI: I am an Associate Professor 

19 of Clinical Pediatrics at Morehouse School of 

20 Medicine, and it gives me great pleasure to be 

21 given a chance to speak here, and I thank you, 

22 the EPA, as well as American Lung Association and 

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1 sister organizations like Mothers & Others For 

2 Clean Air, who have done a tremendous job in 

3 advocating for the cause of clean air in Georgia. 

4 I have attended many luncheons that they have 

5 sponsored in collaboration with the American Lung 

6 Association and have resulted in our more 

7 awareness to these issues.

8 I think a lot has been said about the 

9 statistics on environmental pollution, so I just 

10 don't need to repeat those things which have been 

11 said numerous times in the last couple of days. 

12 As a physician who is a pediatrician in this 

13 great city of ours for the last 25 years, I am 

14 here to make certain observations and I hope that 

15 will help drive the point that we are here for 

16 today.

17 Let me share a personal story. Not long 

18 ago, in my clinic, there was this cute little 

19 girl who was 15 months old, sometime last month, 

20 and I was actually given a call from this frantic 

21 mother, that she wanted me to come to the DFCS 

22 hearing in the Juvenile Court of Justice. And 

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1 when I inquired about the problem, we found out 

2 that this child was taken away from this mother 

3 because she was taking the child frequently to 

4 the emergency room in the previous several 

5 months, and she was taking her to different 

6 emergency rooms because of some logistic reasons, 

7 of transport issues, or the fact that they were 

8 not able to provide care, as they were seen as 

9 negligent. 

10 So after multiple trips, some of the 

11 doctors who saw the records determined that she 

12 was negligent, and she was not caring for the 

13 child, and noncompliant. So the reported this to 

14 the DFCS and, lo and behold, what the DFCS people 

15 generally do is to take this into account and 

16 determine that this mother is not able to take 

17 care of the child and they took the child away.

18 So when I was notified, and I knew this 

19 family for some time, I know they had many 

20 issues, but I knew they were not negligent, they 

21 loved the child, and I felt that this would be 

22 not a good result for this child to be away from 

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1 this loving family. And I talked to the family 

2 and found out what was the cause for the 

3 investigation, and it revealed that the place 

4 they were living at, not only there was some 

5 environmental issues in the house but they were 

6 living right next to a plant, which was the cause 

7 of environmental pollution. 

8 So after a lot of deliberations, we were 

9 able to convince them to have the Housing 

10 Authority give them permission to move and give 

11 them a separate home. Since that time, over the 

12 past 6 months or so, we have seen -- I mean, I 

13 have seen, of course I gave the testimony and the 

14 result of the -- I mean, I'd like to think that 

15 that was the reason the DFCS people reversed 

16 their decision and gave the child back to the 

17 parents. Since then, we have seen that the child 

18 has not suffered that much. So that is my 

19 personal story.

20 Also, since I have been living in Atlanta 

21 for some time, I knew during the Olympics of 

22 1996, it is a demonstrable fact that the 

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1 emergency room visits due to asthma significantly 

2 were reduced in the 3 weeks of time that people 

3 were not driving, because there were no cars on 

4 the road, and after that, since people resumed 

5 driving, and I was one of them -- we used to come 

6 downtown from home in the suburbs -- the asthma 

7 rates were back. So we have scientific evidence, 

8 just personally, that I've seen with my own eyes, 

9 that that happens.

10 Also, as an immigrant in this country --

11 I'm from India, originally -- and, of course, 

12 because of my status, I keep track of what is 

13 happening in countries like China, Brazil. So we 

14 know that smog, in many cities you can't see 

15 beyond like this gentleman sitting here. I can't 

16 beyond that point because of the point, and that 

17 comes from the fact that there is not much 

18 environmental or emissions regulations in those 

19 countries, where traffic is increasing, and in 

20 this country, luckily, we have that, so we don't 

21 have those kinds of problems. We know that this 

22 results in good effect when we have more 

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1 controls.

2 So those people, those politicians who 

3 think that this is just partisan politics, I 

4 think we need to go beyond that and look at it in 

5 a bipartisan manner, and, of course, the 

6 regulations that the EPA has proposed, I'm fully 

7 in support of that. I would also like them to 

8 open up more in terms of communication with other 

9 political parties, so it should be a joint, 

10 bipartisan effort. 

11 So I certainly think that this can happen 

12 and we come to a common-sense approach. As the 

13 leading industrialized nation in the world right 

14 now, the only major support power, I think we 

15 should be at the leading edge and the forefront 

16 of the policy and guidelines towards 

17 environmental and safer protection for our 

18 children and families.

19 Thank you for your support.

20 MS. BANISTER: Thank you both for sharing 

21 your story. I appreciate it.

22 I would now like to invite James Reefe. 

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1 It's R-e-e, I think, f-e. Yes. You're the last 

2 person that has registered to speak. If there is 

3 someone else that's in the audience that is 

4 awaiting to speak, please go to the registration 

5 desk so that we can make sure that you have that 

6 opportunity.

7 Yes. Welcome and thank you for coming 

8 out tonight. If you could state your name and 

9 spell it for the court reporter, that would be 

10 appreciated.

11 MR. REEFE: Hi. My name is Jim Reefe. 

12 That's R-e-e-F as in Frank-e.

13 MS. BANISTER: Okay.

14 MR. REEFE: In 1776, when Adam Smith 

15 published The Wealth of Nations, he was one of 

16 800 million people on Earth. It was the birth of 

17 the modern economy. The Industrial Revolution 

18 kicked off, burning coal to boil water, to make 

19 steam, to turn the engines that ran the factories 

20 and move the trains. Globally, it seemed there 

21 were still vast expanses of unexplored regions 

22 rich with resources. The world seemed infinite 

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1 and balanced. In the U.S.A., old-growth forests 

2 stretched unbroken from the Atlantic Ocean to the 

3 Missouri River, from Alabama in the south, north 

4 into Canada to the northern tree line. The 

5 Industrial Revolution hit high gear with little 

6 regard for the resources consumed or the 

7 consequences of that consumption.

8 Man began injecting CO2 into the 

9 biosphere faster than nature could remove it. 

10 Coal internalized the profits and externalized 

11 the costs. Acid and heavy metals, soot, and CO2 

12 rained down on the people.

13 I was born in 1959, one of 3 billion 

14 people on Earth at that time. In the preceding 

15 200 years since 1776, the world population had 

16 quadrupled. In 1959, man was injecting CO2 into 

17 the biosphere in an order of magnitude faster 

18 than nature could remove it.

19 In the mid 1960s, I saw one of the last 

20 scheduled steam-powered passenger trains pull 

21 into the station in Wilmington, Delaware. Then, 

22 in 1970, in a moment of clarity unmatched in 

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1 recent times, driven to act by the reality of a 

2 land toxified, in their wisdom, the U.S. Congress 

3 amended the Clean Air Act, which was then signed 

4 into law by our GOP father, Richard M. Nixon, and 

5 the people breathed easier, and the water ran 

6 clean, and it was righteous and good, and whoever 

7 complained about water that is to clean?

8 In the year 2000, the world population 

9 passed 6 billion. Global population had doubled 

10 in my lifetime. The next 12 years added another 

11 billion people. There are no more vast expanses 

12 of unexplored territory. The old-growth forest 

13 in the U.S.A. is extinct.

14 The reality of finite bounded world is 

15 evident. Today, the way we use it, the world is 

16 built out. Man is injecting CO2 into the 

17 biosphere orders of magnitude faster than nature 

18 can remove it. Today is our new and stormy 

19 present.

20 Today, trends for all major climate 

21 indicators are tracking against us, Most are 

22 trending radically against us. Mankind now burns 

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1 more coal to boil water, to make steam, to turn a 

2 turbine, to make electricity than ever. The 

3 exploitation economic model that drove the 

4 Industrial Revolution, creating the illusion of 

5 global prosperity, has failed systematically and 

6 the coal technology, like the steam railroad, is 

7 obsolete. I say the illusion of prosperity 

8 because the externalized costs to make the energy 

9 have yet to be realized, meaning cost of CO2 

10 pollution in the atmosphere.

11 Driven by a conspicuous consumption, 

12 planned obsolescence, the throw-away society, the 

13 religious of consumption as an inherently 

14 unfulfilling way of life, with obscenely short15 term focus in economic thinking, the cost of 300 

16 years of excess CO2 in the biosphere is a bill 

17 about to come due, and we will pay over and over 

18 and over again. That CO2 in the biosphere is 

19 like money already spent, like the national debt. 

20 I have no control over that, but what I do have 

21 control over is the CO2 still in my pocket, still 

22 in the ground.

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1 The mindset rooted in the origins of the 

2 Industrial Revolution is obsolete, and continued 

3 loyalty to this mode of thinking is futile and 

4 pointless. Like the frog in the pot, using CO2, 

5 mankind has put the planet on slow boil, and when 

6 the urge to jump arises, it's too late. There's 

7 nowhere to jump and we're already cooked.

8 So my question is, what is my obligation 

9 to the planet that sustains me, the only planet 

10 that I have to call home? There is consternation 

11 among decision-makers about the cost to protect 

12 our world, but what is the cost of that change 

13 relative to the cost of trying against damage 

14 already done to sustain human civilization in a 

15 world too hot and too crowded? What is my 

16 obligation in a democratic, capitalist, 

17 consumption-based society to the world that 

18 sustains me? The answer is that it's the same as 

19 it is in every other society. Loyal to the 

20 failed models giving us the illusion of 

21 prosperity while endangering the future of the 

22 planet only serves to compound interest on the 

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1 bill that is sure to come due.

2 So I have a request to coal and oil. 

3 Please reject the Soylent Green solution, where 

4 man eats man to survive. Please advocate for the

5 dissolution of your business in a controlled and 

6 organized manner, and as you do so, pay honor and 

7 tribute to the society that so enriched you while 

8 absorbing the cost of your business.

9 To the EPA, I implore you to act. Act 

10 now. Act decisively with focus, dedication, and 

11 resolve. Abandon the dogma of Industrial 

12 Revolution so inappropriate to our stormy 

13 present. Embrace the glory of Eden on Earth, and 

14 honor the covenant between mankind and the Planet 

15 Earth to sustain our civilization and the 

16 countless billions of people yet to be born.

17 MS. BANISTER: Thank you for your 

18 comments.

19 MR. REEFE: Thank you very much.

20 MS. BANISTER: Any clarifying questions? 

21 Thank you so much. I think Mr. Reefe was our 

22 last person to speak tonight, but I do want to do 

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1 one last check to make sure that there is no one 

2 else in the audience that would like to speak 

3 before we close out this public hearing.

4 [No audible response.]

5 MS. BANISTER: Again, I'd like to say 

6 thank you all for coming out tonight, and some of 

7 you guys have been with us for the last 2 days, 

8 and we'd like to say thank you for coming to 

9 share your perspectives and your opinions with 

10 regard to the rule, and we invite you to please 

11 submit comments, written comments, and all of the 

12 comments that were taken, that we received over 

13 the last 2 days, as well as ones that we received 

14 before, by October 16th, will be reviewed and 

15 considered, so thank you.

16 So, this hearing is adjourned.

17 [Whereupon, at 8:05 p.m., the Public 

18 Hearing adjourned.]

19

20

21

22

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